Friday, April 5, 2013
The Orlando Sentinel is reporting today that Trayvon’s parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin, have settled their wrongful death case against the Homeowner’s Association for more than $1 million.
The parties are settling the matter to avoid litigation without admitting responsibility and the terms of the settlement agreement are subject to a non-disclosure agreement.
Trayvon’s parents still intend to sue George Zimmerman separately.
The settlement agreement should not have any effect on the criminal case but it does indicate that the HOA has little confidence in the viability of the GZ’s claim of self-defense.
Of course, we already knew that from our review of the evidence and the defense team’s decision to abandon an immunity hearing.
Congratulations to Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin!
This will not bring back Trayvon, but it’s an important achievement and milestone in the long road seeking justice for Trayvon.
H/T to Benjamin Crump: Well done, sir.
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Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
Wonderful news. I suppose it does not look too good for George that the NAO has to dish out money thanks to his actions!
“I suppose it does not look too good for George that the NAO has to dish out money thanks to his actions!”
I give up. What does “NAO” stand for?
unitron
@ Uni –
@ Nellie –
“I give up. What does ‘NAO’ stand for?”
She caught you, Uni.
You fell right into Nellie’s trap.
“NAO” stands for …. you ready for this?
Nits …..
All …..
Over …..
She knew you’d bite!
LOL! What a LOUSE! 😀
Sent from my iPod
Camras at entrance an exit would be the most important an prominent to deter potential crims.
It seems the only viable working cameras were at the clubhouse an front an back pool area.
I M O the clubhouse an pool were independantly set up before or after the dummy security surveilance.
And are nothing to do with the security cctv throught the retreat.
Whats the chances that every cctv would be down through out the complex.
Would be down front an exit an say at least another three or 4 0r more throughout the retreat?
Not possable i m o remember cctvs dterence value is laso in the 24 seven monitering of that footage several people monitering live footage.
To spot potential crimes an report.
Otherwise there no use in prevention but maybe as evidence at a later date.
But a prof burglar aware that no 24 seven surveilance was in operation.
Would wear a balaclave to mask there id. so cctv in its self is no deterent to crime.
An I think if there were anysuch security in evidence at that complex we would have already heard of it.
No there security was dummy cameras an a dummy vigilante sociopath wannabe white guy.
I dont beleive that all the cameras coincidently went off line at the same time.
I have always wondered the same thing. Such an amazing coincidence/lining of the planets.
Does anyone have any insight on this seemingly ridiculous article?
http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/4/5/trayvon_martin_s_par.html
Weird is all I can say.
How can the “Court” decide something about an OUT OF COURT settlement? This article is half-assed, likely wrong and incomprehensibly written, like many on their website.
There may be some truth behind it but if so its unattributed to any interview, quotation, public notice or a byline. That lands it in my ignore file until further notice.
@Willis, That’s my perplexity, as well. I’ve been privy to many settlement agreements that have non-disclosure clauses, but nary a one that was interfered with by a court.
@Judy75201
Florida must have some strange rules because in Illinois tort cases, settlement agreements are not filed with the court. A motion to dismiss with prejudice is filed with a stipulated order for the judge to sign.
Granted, I do not have much civil litigation experience but my understanding is that when a case is pending in state or federal court, judges usually review proposed settlement agreements to make sure the agreement complies with applicable laws, does not violate public policy, and its terms are clear, reasonable and enforceable.
Since the defendant is an HOA consisting of over 200 home owners, I am inclined to think that judicial review and approval may be necessary.
@Professor
Now, that makes sense. (Whew) Thanks.
@ Judy,
There may be some requirement, insisted on by Crump, who is very, very careful, that this somehow be certified or signed off by the Court. Negotiated out-of-court, but goes back to court to be approved. Nobody wants to fool around with loose ends when $1,000,001 is involved.
Or sumpin’
@ Willis — “half-assed, likely wrong and incomprehensibly written …”
Don’t hold back, Willis, other than that, how did you like the story? 🙂 🙂 🙂
@Willis,
The got it from their Ouija board …
“How can the “Court” decide something about an OUT OF COURT settlement? ”
A good question, but apparently Crump filed something about the settlement with “a” court, and “a” judge said you’ve got 10 days to appeal, otherwise what you filed goes public, so in 10 days I guess we’ll either know something or nothing, depending upon the success or lack thereof of the appeal.
Notice how this case means having to constantly add more numbers to the far side of the scale on the weird-o-meter?
unitron
Not nearly as weird as the Jodie Arias case. Now THAT takes the cake for “weird”!
Sent from my iPod
New post up: The petition for a writ of certiorari is ridiculous
Thanks Professor!
Check out the new lead article at the Tree Stump – did OM really advise in the HOA settlement or is this more la-la land logic? http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2013/04/06/calling-back-all-the-mark-omara-fans-questions-for-you-serious/#more-61210
I told you. I think the nuts are falling from the tree at the nuthouse.
Claiming O’ Mara had a say in this shows just how stupid they are. Was he representing anyone in this case. No. Was Fogen a defendant in this case….again No……A big Diuhhhhhhh of the week to the Outhouse.
And we’re all sure Markie O said…..pay ’em….
Believe me, the last thing in life MOM and Fogen could want, would be to see Sabrina and Tracey get their hands on a million plus dollars, less because of this on going case where GZ claims he was almost beaten to death. The HOA and their insurance company is saying to themselves, “we can be sure that nobody, but nobody is going to believe that this timid 158 lb kid was capable of taking GZ’s life with just his bare hands”. That being so, then they must believe that a very large offer of money today, beats having the plaintiffs wait a year or two more. Most especially since the first to settle is going to get away cheapest.
This shows that the HOA and their insurers, after having looked at their potential defenses, have decided that those defenses are, not only unlikely to work, but is more likely to enrage the jury, once all the evidence is heard. An enraged jury is not something one is prepared to face.
Like I’ve said before, the facts of this criminal case, when heard and understood by the jury, will so infuriate them, I would not be surprised to see the jurors themselves lunge from the jury box at Fogen.
I agree other than they will lunge at him but I hear ya. BUT, imagine the interviews with jurors afterwards……and the books…..uhhhhh.
Must suck to be Fogen. He’ll be Clanking like the tin man in a few months.
Yes, the “lunge at him” is a little joke, but I do believe they’ll be incensed. His story, if he tries to present one, will make it clear he assumes that everyone is a damned fool. “I just happened to forget about the gun I always carry on these patrols, even though it belonged to my wife”. Is not a very good start, eh?
That would be a pretty poor start, middle or finish. I always shop on Sunday night ……being broke and all. Damn good thing those AA kids got mentored early that day too.
@Racer.
Re: ” I always shop on Sunday night ……being broke and all. Damn good thing those AA kids got mentored early that day too.”
Do those lucky AA “mentees” pack a lunch before they go off to George’s?
Does George eat it?
Yeah, those ghost mentoree’s have to bring him snacks and then he lets them play with his gun…..and maybe his pistol to, what with his record and all……hey, just sayin’……….
Tzar left us a reminder that Det. Gilbreath took the stand at the first bond hearing and testified under oath that, they know the way that Trayvon took to his house and they know that he got there. I’ve included a link to her post in my Master Revisable Timeline HERE What this means if it is true (and I doubt BDLR and the detective would conspire to lie under oath) is that GZ is to be wearing chains cuffs and leg irons in about 60 some days.
Because they’ve figured out which path Trayvon took to get home, and they say it was the most direct route, then for GZ to come into contact with him, GZ had to have run him down and confronted him.
Doing that while carrying a firearm and refusing to identify himself, while chasing him north, calling for help while the boy was screaming for mercy and momma, then shooting a kid who never laid a hand on him, and telling the world that the kid was an insane and deadly threat who almost took his life. Is going to make the jury ask the judge to put Mr. Fogen, under the jail.
GZ could not tell the truth about what happened because, he had no reason to kill the kid, other than for his own edification and self satisfaction. Hardly a wonder then, that he’s the most hated man on the planet.
Yes Sir, these are all things we know have been discussed, and make sense. Like we’ve said before, there is way more going on that Fogen’s story. His deal is, he’s always gotten away with it.
Quite literally, he murdered “Saint Trayvon” and thought he could lie his way out in that stupid “matter of fact” story way…..smirks & all.
That shoulder shrug when he tells his story about firing one shot is nauseating….nothing short.
@Lonnie Starr
GZ could not identify himself because he apparently knew that associating himself with NW while carrying a gun requires a Class G license. He was not calling while walking his dog, or looking out of a window of his home. He was calling while in his vehicle and while moving his vehicle following the kid.
GZ had no problem identifying himself on other NEN calls as a member of NW. He withheld that info in his 2/26/12 NEN call. The question is why? The most reasonable answer is because GZ planned on using his gun that night if given the opportunity, whether to restrain and retain, or actually fire.
@Xena –
“GZ had no problem identifying himself on other NEN calls as a member of NW. He withheld that info in his 2/26/12 NEN call. The question is why? The most reasonable answer is because GZ planned on using his gun that night if given the opportunity, whether to restrain and retain, or actually fire.”
PRECISELY.
@PiranhaMom
Thank you. Which is also why GZ made up the story of going to grocery shop. Lonnie’s theory that something else had been planned that went wrong with the 3 stooges makes more and more sense. Had GZ killed Trayvon outside of that gated community, there would have been no investigation as to whether he had a Class G license.
More than enough reason for those 3 guys at the 711 to hide their faces from the cctv. To do that they had to know something.
Re the security cctv cameras theres various packages one can buy re resonce an full cctv coverage .
The cheapest option is no responce no one manning the footage or recording data.
An simply mount dummy cctv cameras throughout a complex to act as a deterent.
In that persps see the cameras an are frightened of by there presance.
Thats the rock bottom cheapest option an of coure is on a need to know type loop of people.
As if that info gets out then crooks no theres no surveilance.
If anything happens whilst useing thease dummy system the imeadiate responce is there down for repair..
We wondered why trunkmom was able to park her car on Golden rod in outside sevrall buisnesses with cctv cameras .
Where in fact the vechicle was towed from how was she not spotted on cctv.
Wors came out cctv was down for repair but at court the truth came out.
Those buisness one wich included a money cash buisness cashing checks ect had gone for the dummy camera security option.
And i m o I think we will find that the gated comunity H O A or whomever handdled the instaling for maintanence upkeep of the cctv and there manning data storage options went for the cheapest option of mock cameras ,
All show an no tell.
Was foggaggge aware of this information probably .
At minimun, someone used the situation to their advantage that night.
Hmmm. That would be INTERESTING to know that the RTL cameras weren’t really down but actually dummies . . . yikes. That could very well be another issue that muddied the waters for the HOA.
They had real and working cameras on the clubhouse that night, so chances are, all were real. Maybe they didn’t maintain the gate cameras with the same diligence.
That’s true and seems logical that the rest were real – but what if they placed only real cameras only at the public building where they thought these were most needed?
LOL. Nah . . .
Oh, my: I see April 15 looming. … Will Fogen and the Missus be filing a joint return this year, and will they get in by deadline or apply for an extension, with distractions stemming from the coming trial and all? (Sure hope the IRS is keeping an eye on the Fogen family beggar funds. )
I believe in an earlier post, Mr. Leatherman established that these donations are gifts that Fogen doesn’t have a tax obligation for.
Yes, but this couple still needs to file, even if they don’t owe.Also, any gift donation over a certain amount may well be taxable.
I have a feeling this grifter couple’s back returns might be worth scrutiny as well.
I think we dead ended on that discussion. Prof Leatherman does not deal in tax law.
Sent from my iPod
And it seems that tax laws change every time you take a breath.
I read the Professors take but my IRS guy said he’ll owe big bucks because he solicited them for a specific purpose then used them for something else…..like food ‘n cars’ n such.
@ Racer — Glad to hear it!
Boobles and Gladazz have never claimed “for defense” at their beg site that I know of, but the Fogens could get caught big-time on the bait-and-switch that they pulled.
It’s another reason for the Missus to flip, and to file separately, including an amended return for last year.
But, hey, why worry about an April 15 tax deadline, when you’re looking at up to life on Murder2 or up to a few years for perjury?
Think about the logic. If this was tax exempt, we could all set up an “Income exchange” and use some bs reason.to pull it off. I donated $75,000.00 to TO and he donated $75,000.00 to me, we’re even and no taxes on any of the money.
Racer- I like that ! But i dont want to be like Wesley Snipes. He just got out of jail for some “tax shelter”.
Sent from my iPod
And that’s why it’s illegal. FogenPhoole & SheLie will undoubtedly have a tax issue soon.
@cielo62
Snipes was used by some sovereign citizens in Florida to try to prove their theory that federal taxes are unconstitutional. Not knowing their roots in White Supremacy, he bought the theory, hook, line, and to federal prison. He was convicted of income tax evasion. The guys who convinced him are now serving time also (I forget the charges).
Snipes, who was scheduled for release in July 2013, was released to serve the rest of his time at home — probably on a GPS device.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/8198-sovereign-citizen-movement-continues-to-attract-attention
Also the IRS lives on a budget themselves, so they’re hardly likely to pursue an action where collection is very unlikely for the reasons that exist in this case. They’re more likely to simply monitor the situation, rather than step in and take money that might better go to the victims family.
Funny, that’s what my IRS Criminal Investigator friend (my sons godfather) and my tax accountant both said. They also say I’ll never be audited being a small one man business and Fogen may owe a lot, but he’ll be in prison, so, what’s the point.
He’ll owe…no doubt.
Let me guess. This settlement is Obama’s fault. Obama and the librul media, right? Obama masterminded the whole thing…LOL.
#TinFoilHat
HOA settled b/c they feared retaliation from BP! Ha,Ha,HA!
Even better!
Lol! And they made the killer drop his immunity hearing too so the HOA would settle early.
you know it strikes me as I watch joonyah evolve on twitter and on the faux news network, that he didn’t know a thing about politics and the evil media. everything he spouts are direct regurgitations of actual political pundits and media personalities.. he probably watched reruns of you tube videos and took notes on whatever he thought would attract the most idiots likely to buy his rhetoric.
he’s a poser, he repeats the same things for every question he’s asked. you know; the famous circular logic.
he’s just sounds so pathetic when he tries to sound more intelligent than he is.
I read recently that it’s much harder to make yourself sound smarter than you are, but idiots don’t realize that and try to do it all the time.
LMFAO LOL
Dont forget the repeated “Black have too much power, it is part of their agenda” speech as well
Right, yes, that would be an element of the broader conspiracy. Not. LOL.
GZ would probably love nothing better than to take a plea, the SP, however, has no incentive to offer him one. Besides a well handled trial may very well reveal that there are others to be charged. So, a trial holds the benefit of a bonus in the offing. It feels good to be in the limelight, it’s got to feel even better to be in the limelight and winning as well.
Bonus potential in trial testimony, I predict, will provide eye-openers leading to more charges. Justice for Trayvon all the way …
I haven’t posted in awhile. I have been lurking and reading the excellent articles and of course some of the comments(can’t read them all)that I skim.
I do however need to post that I’d love to have seen the look on GZ and family when they head about that settlement to Tracy & Sabrina.
What I can’t understand is why MOM doesn’t talk to GZ about trying to take a plea. I mean really even the HOA knows he’s guilty.
Have a wonderful week-end.
@TM, MOM cannot cop a plea for fear of offending the racist & this includes the zimmkkklan. When will MOM b holding a press conference to comment on the recent dev…
I’m surprized he hasn’t already, knowing what a media whore he is. According to the outhouse, he’s the one who advised the settlementt so how can he do that and have GZ’s best interests. LOL. I’m sure we’ll hear from him and jr soon enough then. Wish we hadn’t.
Jr was pretty subdued on his Twitfest last night.
Seems whoever payed out could have gotten a continuance much like NBC did.
Go figure…..
Sure , but NBC knows it can (and likely will) win in the end.
Not so for the HOA insurance carrier that decided to cut losses early.
The HOA insurance carrier wanted to avoid ongoing expenses in run-up to a costly trial and the risk of being forced into a much, much higher payout with a jury verdict. By settling quickly, the HOA insurance carrier is off the hook.
Exactly! Cheaper than a jury verdict pay-out.
Not sure how to assign a motive or thought process to the payer, since we are not quite sure who the payer was. Did the HOA have more than a mil layin’ around?
A “random” crime and the HOA just rolls over?
So, are they responsible for burglaries, rapes, vandalism, too?
Where, exactly, was the HOA negligent?
Other HOAs might want to know and organize (or not) accordingly.
The HOA allowed Fogen to organize NW, then did nothing when there were complaints about his behavior and about him carrying a gun.
@Trained Observer. Interrogatories to the HOA would have been devastating for them. Requests for electronic communications could tie them up for months. And, how does the HOA respond with interrogatories to Sybrina? It would have been a one-sided discovery effort to the benefit of Sybrina.
@Trained –
Re “The HOA insurance carrier wanted to avoid ongoing expenses in run-up to a costly trial and the risk of being forced into a much, much higher payout with a jury verdict. By settling quickly, the HOA insurance carrier is off the hook.”
That’s it, in a nutshell, Trained.
Thank you for your concise, on-target summary. Says it all.
@ Aunt Bea — In response to your inquiry on whether the R@TL HOA had “more than a mil layin’ around?” Not likely, but HOA’s do have cash reserves to cover both regular and unexpected expenses. HOA’s generally do (if they[‘re smart) carry liability insurance. As for your inquiry on a theoretical rape, HOA would have coverage of one of its maintenance workers was the perp, especially if no background check had been done.
The HOA didn’t just roll over. Trayvon’s murder was more than a year ago, and there’s been plenty of opportunity to look at the evidence. Doesn’t matter if it was the HOA’s insurance carrier or the HOA’s management company’s insurance carrier or a combo of both with some cash reserves to boot, the professionals obviously wanted to end this before more HOA dirt started coming out at trial.
How is Fogen doing all the instigating and attacking and killing, considered, self defense? LOL
He stalked a 17 year old teenage boy, whom only had candy, chased the kid down when he was trying to run away from him, caught the kid, confronted and threatened the kid, and then killed the kid, while the kid was begging for his life (The 911 call screams are obvious that of a young boy)
The defendant then staged his injuries, and frankly, he could have showed up to the scene with premade injuries to stage his self defense claim
There is no dna transfer whatsoever on the kid’s hands, sleeves, or cuffs, which is impossible, considering the super minor injuries the defendant is claiming was caused by the victim
Lastly, any kid being stalked and chased down by a stranger with a gun, car, and flashlight, has a right to defend themselves
Seriously, enough with this stupid defendant’s charade, the public is not stupid
Jun, well said.
I only disagree with you on this point: “The public is not stupid.” Ummmm, Jun — uh — well, the public may be a little bit stupid.
Malisha- well the public can be ALOT stupid and they congregate in a treehouse/ outhouse!
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I sometimes think Shellie and Georgie had a physical fight earlier in the day and GZ stormed out with the gun. SZ calls Osterman because she thinks GZ is gonna’ do himself in and mess up the Ridgeline. Damn, I want his phone records…..
I noticed in the police station photos GZ pushes is jacket sleeves up, but leaves the shirt sleeves down around his wrists. Really odd. He could have had older scratches there, too, that would have been impossible to blame on TM.
Aunt Bea- didn’t GZ have his gang tattoo on his forearm? Maybe he wanted to keep that covered up.
Sent from my iPod
ssshhhhh. The frenemie may hear you
Southerngirl2, I went to TCTH and was amazed at the racists comments. What is BGI? How can they defend an officer who said “They should drown them (Black kids?/boys?) at birth? http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/4/5/racial_remark_forces.html
BGI is Black Grievance Industry. They can defend the officer b/c they think black life is worthless. It’s why they’re defending GZ.
They are re-branding it as “professional” grievance industry, I’ve noticed lately.
Don’t know if this article (link below) has been posted already but it struck me as interesting because it states:
So if not the insurer’s who paid out?
Another curiosity it it notes that the Court sees no reason for it to be kept confidential and given Crump 10 days to appeal the decision. I would have thought it was personal information only pertinent to the parties and therefore should be private, but if made public then it will be clear who paid.
http://tinyurl.com/ceoq3og
It definitely appears it wasn’t Traveller’s that paid out as OS has an update of the article “Trayvon Martin’s parents settle wrongful-death claim” published some 6 hours after the article in the Professor’s link (link below) which is the same but with quite a bit of new text added, including:
Still unexplained is how a policy that goes into effect March 30 covers events of the 26th Feb… or has that already been explained here?
http://tinyurl.com/ctunccy
So Travelers is saying what they said last summer – “We didn’t have coverage in effect when the wrongful death happened. We are not the deep pocket.”
Let’s see how much the management company’s insurance company pays. I have been wondering if they printed the flyers and newsletters launching Zimmerman on his vigilante career. If so, they’ll be sorreeee.
It can end up assessing $5,000 against every unit there, for a total of $1.3 million. They slap a lien on each unit and if there’s any cash left after the mortgage is paid (most are under water) it is recovered at that time.
But because the management company contracts with many HOAs, they are in business and likely carry beaucoup liability insurance. Surprised that the State of FL does not require HOAs to carry liability insurance, like the Davis-Stirling Act in California.
@PiranhaMom,
Yep, Travelers is saying..whew! Meanwhile the HOA and unfortunate owners of the units are saying…yikes!
If my calculations are correct, and I’m dyslexic for maths too even using a calculator so don’t count on my figures for anything important, a $1m settlement would cost 260 properties around $3,800 each. Any higher settlement you will have to do the sum yourself as too much effort 😉
@KS.
Well, KS, the management company IS a “management” company so I expect they run things in a businesslike manner and they have insurance – so it’s likely their carrier saying “Yikes!”
When I went on my HOA Board the first thing I insisted on is D&O insurance. I do that on any Board I sit on. And I have a personal umbrella policy. But insurance companies now quiz you as to what Boards you are on and the exposure they may have for your civic activity. Fortunately I served on the Farm Bureau Board, and all my insurance came through the Farm Bureau’s primary carrier. But this stuff is really important. Yes, do your civic duty – but protect your assets. (Take that any way you want.)
“Still unexplained is how a policy that goes into effect March 30 covers events of the 26th Feb…”
The explanation is that it does not, and Travelers went to court to get that settled.
unitron
I thought that, but then why did Travelers apply to have a court determine their liability when the dates were as clear as daylight? Preemptory?
“I thought that, but then why did Travelers apply to have a court determine their liability when the dates were as clear as daylight? Preemptory?”
Apparently suit was actually brought against Travelers, and they went to court to get a ruling that the plaintiff was barking up the wrong tree.
unitron
@Unitron.
No, no, no. It wasn’t a law suit. It was a claim form given to Sybrina by the HOA.
I’ll see if Lonnie will post the case documents. It will help if you read them.
Will do!
IT’S UP, CLICK HERE The HOA settlement docs.
@Lonnie Starr. Fantastic!! Now Unitron can read what Travelers filed rather than arguing on assumption. 🙂
LOL!!!
Admittedly just scanned the doc, but it looks like the Traveller’s insurance policy that went into effect on 3/30/2012.
Not a settlement agreement.
@Professor. You’re correct. It’s the petition for a declaratory decision, the attached policy, the motion and order to dismiss without prejudice.
Yep, looks like I misunderstood the document I was getting, I didn’t have time to read it because of having to wrestle with the complication hurdles to get it up on blogger. I simply assumed that it was in answer to the subject under immediate discussion at the time.
When, in fact it was in answer to a previous facet of the current discussions. Oh well, making the title change now, thanks for the catch Professor.
@ Lonnie –
Do I understand correctly that none of those documents award any of the $$$ to Trayvon’s parents? That these documents get that particular Travelers policy OUT of consideration?
It states right in there that the March 30-issued policy only insures THE HOA BOARD (D&O Insurance), not the Association and its 260-unit Members who are the unlucky dudes still on the hook for the settlement $$$.
One word in the Travelers documents that I found devastating to the HOA is where it referred to Zimmerman as the “DESIGNATED” watch guy. Ouch!
It’s that very designation of Zimmerman that nails the HOA for damages.
Thanks, Lonnie.
They have him in their newsletter articles as the proud Captain of the Neighborhood Watch. Where they take pains to shower him with praise, so they’re toasted. Worse, someone who attempted to lodge a complaint against the NW at an HOA meeting was hustled out and his complaint was never accepted, filed or heard from again.
If that kind of information gets before a judge and jury, the HOA would roast like a pig at a luau.
@gbrbsb
i posted this much earlier in the thread, but will do so again. commercial policies can be written to cover past dated periods, it costs a hefty premium however, especially when there is a known liability. we have not seen the traveler’s policy regarding coverage date in relation to purchase date, but obviously they took the issue to court for a determination. subsequent news articles state that travelers was not a party to the settlement. i will just put forward, that insurance can be purchased for past periods for commercial policies.
@faux
@gbrbsb
Concur; have had experience with same re commercial policies, specifically D&O coverage, and yes, it’s pricey. The carrier can also offer retroactive coverage excluding certain acts/incidents.
piranhamom – i do appreciate your long (necessarily so) explanation of homeowners associates, of whom it is comprised, and the board elected to serve on their behalf. i was considering writing something similar myself (mother serves on her HOA board, i served on my local food coop board before becoming general manager). your explanation is spot on and should remove any questions in peoples’ minds. thanks for saving me some work 😉
@faux –
The work you really saved is by not getting on an HOA Board. It’s the pits! We have only 31 homes but I have never seen such a collection of demanding, dependent primadonnas.
On the other hand, Boards can be comprised of absolute crazies. My predecessor was know as “the dogpoop Nazi.”
I am serving, reluctantly, in self-defense.
And I don’t even own a dog.
@Unitron gbrbsb wrote:
You replied
Traveler’s did not go to court to seek a declaratory judgment based on the policy period. The policy itself included a “Discovery Period” that dates back to calendar year 2009. In their petition, Traveler’s cited that the policy only applies to Directors and Officers of the HOA and also cited a policy exclusion.
In essence, the policy pertains to losses suffered due to property damage and not wrongful death claims.
As soon as I find time, I’ll upload the documents and provide a link, but that link will not be posted on my blog site, so you will need to download the documents.
@gbrbsb
“we have learned that … ” is not even “reliable sources have stated …” May be, may not be. I worked as an investigative reporter for four years and my editor would have struck “we have learned … ” with a Taser (and zapped me, too).
Let’s just see what happens.
I would have agreed that possibility 10 mins ago but just found OS has a second edition of the article the professor posted with much more information and it states:
@gbrbsb. Hmmm. The article mentions the management company and trying to contact their lawyer. No mention of trying to contact Travelers. There’s a possibility that the management company paid or is paying the settlement.
Well, in Travelers prepared statement they say,
but IMO your conclusion could also be possible because apparently the supposed payer policy only went into effect March 30 and I’ve yet to hear of any insurer accepting liability for something prior to the policy taking effect… just not in their nature!
@gbrbsb. In their petition for a declaratory judgment, Traveler’s didn’t argue that the policy was taken out after 2/26/12. Rather, they argued that the policy only covered directors of the HOA in their personal capacity.
I wasn’t referring to that but maybe I got it wrong, and it is an updated policy with Travelers covering such incidents for up to $1m that came into effect on 30th March and the other policy/ies that are going to pay out are still unknown.
@gbrbsb
I’m just saying that “we have found that” without stating the source or any indication of the source is not journalism, it’s just lame.
Repeating: let’s see what info comes out (from identified sources).
@PiranhaMom
I think it’s true because the OS has an updated version (6hrs later) of the article the Professor linked to and it notes that Travelers have issued a prepared statement denying being a paying party and that it must be other insurers of the HOA and/or the property managers. OS state the policy in question has a $1m limit and went into effect March 30 which is where I get lost because as I noted to Xena what insurers accepts liability for something prior to the policy taking effect. Xena reckons it could be the HOA is paying which could be and they want to keep it secret… or maybe not.
@gbrbsb
No — the management company. It’s the same company that when Singleton asked GZ about the cameras at the gate working or not working, that GZ asked for his phone to get the guy’s phone number.
Oh, I see. IMO that would be logical if they were involved in setting up, condoning or encouraging the NW, but were they?
@gbrbsb,
My guess is that the management company included the Newsletter with hype about GZ as NW in their monthly bills to owner/residents. Maybe they even have a staffer write that stuff. A small Board like that couldn’t handle communications with 260 owners. Or, Crump nailed them for security deficiencies. Since whoever is paying is not declared guilty, we may not ever know.
FYI the end of last year I wrote a report re SPD officers working off-the-clock in security and posited that GZ went out that night and pursued Trayvon to get “a collar” and prove to the HOA Board he could put together a security guard service staffed with off-duty cops to patrol RATL.
SPD provided me with all their records on contacts with RATL re security. Last year, well after the killing, the management company accompanied the HOA Board President to a meeting with SPD, where they executed a contract that SPD would patrol RATL’s private streets – and they would do it for free. It was later ratified by the City Council (or Board of Commissioners – whatever their legislative body is). SPD said they do this for about 15 HOAs in their jurisdiction. Free.
So the management company IS taking a direct interest in security at RATL, and just maybe it was one of its responsibilities all along.
@gbrbsb
If we keep this to Singleton’s interests in the operation of the video camera at the gates, then the management company has the responsibility of making a record of all who enter and exit the gates of that community. The lack of having operating equipment that could provide evidence of the parties’ movements that night is tangible to the case.
@gbrbsb.
I’m not saying it’s not true. I’m commenting on the wussy “journalism.” If, in fact, the Judge said (paraphrasing here) there’s no need for confidentiality, I expect Crump will go back for the release,
At that point we’ll have a document – and this site thrives on documents.
What really matters is that Trayvon’s parents’ grievous loss has been recognized, and Benjamin Crumps expertise and persistence will be rewarded.
It makes us happy.
Not jubilant, but a little happy, for the validation that Zimmerman’s actions, and the HOA that pimped him, are literally indefensible.
Exactly. Whoever paid doesn’t really matter and is minutiae. Travelers, another insurance company, the HOA istself, whomever. What matters is that somebody with a vested and material interest in this case looked at their situation and folded in favor of TM’s camp. That’s telling.
the os, as in renee shuzermman? she wrote the same thing last year!! omar has filled her in on the spin for this year too. that is her source in this case. any and everything she writes is spoon fed by omar himself! lol
I swear she has a vested interest in getting those donations coming into the begsite.
“Don’t know if this article (link below) has been posted already but it struck me as interesting because it states:
We have learned, that the homeowners association’s insurance company did not have to pay out a claim on the case.
So if not the insurer’s who paid out?
Another curiosity it it notes that the Court sees no reason for it to be kept confidential and given Crump 10 days to appeal the decision. I would have thought it was personal information only pertinent to the parties and therefore should be private, but if made public then it will be clear who paid.”
Nice find on that article, but, and this is by no means a reflection on you, it’s hideously short on detail (although they seem to have enough extra commas to have put one where it has no business being).
I don’t know that I’ve ever heard of a civil suit being settled with non-disclosure clauses all around only to then have the court threaten to disclose the details, but if both sides agreed to non-disclosure, why does only one side get to appeal the decision?
If the insurance company didn’t pay out, one wonders if anyone did.
unitron
Aha, but soon after I also discovered that OS (Rene of course) had updated her original article the Professor linked to in his post and the new version has most of details except the bit about the confidentiality agreement and possible disclosure. I hadn’t noticed the comma, very bad, but then I’m notorious for misplacing them so shouldn’t really criticise. Herewith the link:
http://tinyurl.com/ctunccy
Punctuation can be tricky. Besides the lowly comma, take the apostrophe … It’s the difference between:
A) knowing your shit
B knowing you’re shit
“We have learned, that the homeowners association’s insurance company did not have to pay out a claim on the case.”
Just saw something elsewhere.
It could be that the pointless comma is actually where they forgot to mention that the HOA has changed insurance carriers since the night in question and that the company that was insuring them at the time is the one that would have to pay any settlement, and that the current insurer, who did not start insuring them until later, doesn’t have to do or pay anything.
unitron
I am not sure if they changed insurers or cover. There may even be some error on behalf of the press. From the OS article it appears that an insurance that didn’t come into effect until March 30 will be paying out on a claim that happened on the 26th feb. Now that just doesn’t make sense… at least not on my side of the divide! From comments of other posters it may be insurers to the HOA or the Management or that the owners themselves will be the ones coughing up. Condominiums and insurance aren’t my strong points but if the confidential agreement ceases to be confidential then all should be revealed.
I suspect that the insurance company for the HOA decided that it was cheaper to go with a settlement (where they admit no liability) than it was to litigate.
All this means is that the insurance company (who don’t give a damn about either Martin or Zimmerman or what really happened that night, because they’re just a business) made a business decision that it was cheaper to settle than to litigate.
If they had airtight evidence that Zimmerman was the second coming of Christ and that Martin was Hitler re-incarnated, but litigation would have cost them $3 Million and a settlement could be had for $1 Million, they would decide to save themselves $2 Million.
So the insurance company settling instead of fighting it in court only proves which option they found cheaper.
Insurance companies are non-ideological, non-emotional, non-sentimental.
They take in as much money as they can and pay out as little money as they can and they make decisions based on keeping things that way. Just like any other business.
unitron
That’s actually not true. I have sued an insurance company before and they fought me tooth and nail, and the amount was not even 1 mill. They have investigated people for even lesser amounts than 1 million, such as 15,000 cases or even lower.
“That’s actually not true. I have sued an insurance company before and they fought me tooth and nail…”
No doubt because they did the math and decided that in your case it was cheaper to litigate than to settle, especially if settling would have established any precendent making them more vulnerable to having to pay out later in other cases as well.
That’s how companies in the insurance business stay in business, they figure out which is the less expensive way to deal with stuff and they do it that way without getting emotionally involved.
If they screwed you over, it wasn’t because they got some sadistic pleasure from it, it was because that was the option where they paid out the lesser amount of money.
unitron
They even do it, when they have a huge chance of losing money, and I won
At the end of the day, the access the case before deciding to settle as it is the civil version of a plea bargain
It’s not just about money, because the lawyer fees would have been way less than over 1 million
They accessed the case and felt that it was probably a save of time and money because the case was not strong for the HOA
At the end of the day, it is about the case
Even though it is non-disclosure, it is fairly obvious and I will take an estimated guess, is because of the HOA’s negligence
Exactly. They do the math and figure the odds. They looked at the Trayvon Martin killing. They looked at the way the thing played out. They looked at the early news reports that showed that there was someone at the HOA who had objected, early and repeatedly, that Fogen should not be patrolling with a loaded gun and probably they had evidence that Black residents also objected to being followed, “chased” and profiled. They had a lot more information than we have. And they also figured they couldn’t get away with saying it was not an act that they had to cover because INTENTIONAL BAD ACTS are not covered (nearly all insurance companies have clauses in their policies saying if the insured intentionally commits some criminal activity they are not responsible); they couldn’t get out of it that way because Fogen was not charged with First Degree Murder but only second degree. So they realized that once all the information got out they were going to be paying out a heckofalot more than $ million so they coughed it up. ALSO may have done that to get in FRONT of the news that there were others in HOA who had enabled and even goaded Fogen to his murderous activity.
I don’t believe they were paying just to AVOID the expense of litigation. I believe they were paying to get releases before the REAL shit hit the BIG fans.
@UNITRON
Well, yeah, Uni. Travelers Insurance checked out the evidence and saw the HOA didn’t stand a chance, since it endorsed and promoted GZ without reservation (and continued to do so despite owners who complained). Then Travelers checked out the evidence against the HOA’s pet rockhead: “I shot him,” said GZ.
So of course Travelers offered a settlement. And of course Benjamin Crump, Esq. would not settle for chump change. Eventually, Travelers settled for a higher figure. All the stuff about not revealing the amount and not admitting guilt etc. is STANDARD..
Nobody here is expecting Travelers to be some kind of Crusader. We’re just cheered to know that they, from a business viewpoint, recognized that Crump would win and Travelers and the HOA would lose – BIG, BIG time – if they went to court – based on the evidence of what happened after the HOA sanctioned the triggerman to make his unappointed rounds.
So don’t be grumpy about this vindication for Trayvon’s family and their attorney.
It doesn’t become you.
This time The Good Guys won.
Rejoice.
Yeah. So there, Unitron.
Where’s Crane and her Friday night victory song?
Two sides- sing it, honey!
Sent from my iPod
“Well, yeah, Uni. Travelers Insurance checked out the evidence…”
You mean the evidence that some other company was the HOA’s carrier on the night in question and not Travelers?
“Travelers is not a party to the settlement,” the company said in a prepared statement. “The settlement would have been with other insurers of the homeowners association and/or the property managers.”
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-trayvon-martin-settlement-20130405,0,6893976.story
unitron
@Uni.
Oh, Uni, I wrote that during my delusional stage. Taking the early reports at face value. Now just waiting to see what the documents say. May be written in Kurdish, for all I know. The reporters were not much in tracking down confirmation. Whatever happened to the rule you need two sources to back up statements in your news story? Gone, baby, gone ….
As I said, my editor would have tased me.
“Whatever happened to the rule you need two sources to back up statements in your news story? Gone, baby, gone ”
I’m not sure they even bother with one source nowadays, but then again lots of reporters, especially non-print, don’t even seem familiar with the rules of grammar and usage anymore, much less the rules of reporting.
unitron
@Uni,
Unrelated to the case at hand, but about reporters, I will share with you an exchange I had recently with a really sharp young investigative reporter w/a great rep, for whom I am a “source.” I referenced Omar Bradley in the interview, backtracking a bit to add “General Omar Bradley” (the issue was logistics) and as the interview continued it became clear that “General Omar Bradley” was not making the mark as a reference point. So I asked him, “Umm. You do know who Omar Bradley is, yes?” (I use the present tense because living legends are to me, well — living.) There was a pause and Chris said, “Well, not really. Something to do with the Bradley tank?”
I too, was a stickler for grammar, Uni, but now I’m just hoping for basic knowledge of American history. It’s scant.
But the new “journalists” have teeth that look good on television, so that’s the important part taken care of.
unitron
@Uni –
“But the new “journalists” have teeth that look good on television … ”
Maybe to you humans, Uni, but we piranha have never been impressed by all that orthodonture.
PirhanaMom- LOL! We humans have such puny lil teeth!
Sent from my iPod
“…we piranha have never been impressed by all that orthodonture.”
Nice to know we can always count on you for a “biting” remark.
unitron
@Uni –
“Nice to know we can always count on you for a ‘biting’ remark.”
That’s what friends are for, Uni.
HOA had even issued false newsletter reports about the heroic crime-fighting victories of the neighborhood watchman George Zimmerman. They were in it up to their eyeballs. I believe a few of the witnesses who know a lot more than they have told were HOA folks trying to continue the cover-up for obvious reasons. Some of the reasons no doubt had to do with what has developed. It would be good to find out if perhaps Patty Mahaney or some of the other players in the early misinformation campaigns WERE homeowners in RTL. I haven’t done that research.
@ Malisha –
Re: “It would be good to find out if perhaps Patty Mahaney or some of the other players in the early misinformation campaigns WERE homeowners in RTL.”
Malisha, if you could tie that beast Patty Mahaney into this by conflict of interest, oh WOW!
That’s funny spin unitron though not surprising coming from you. Insurance companies are notorious for fighting tooth and nail not to pay a penny. The insurance company didn’t settle “just because” based on litigation costs. They settled based on the potential exposure in this case and the weakness of the HOA’s case. Also, if you read the article you’d see that a 1MM settlement was rejected earlier so the actual number is probably well north of that. PiranhaMom has is right.
“The insurance company didn’t settle “just because” based on litigation costs.”
When they calculate the possible costs of continuing litigation they include the possibility of losing and having to pay out a much greater sum than the settlement.
Once the plaintiff quits trying to sue the wrong insurance company.
unitron
@Uni,
You’re a stickler, Uni, but a stickler with a nice sense of whimsy.
Enjoyed.
Query:
If a plaintiff barks up the wrong tree in the forest, whose bark is it?
“Query:
If a plaintiff barks up the wrong tree in the forest, whose bark is it?”
Depends on whether it’s worse than their bite.
Otherwise, quinine.
unitron
@ Uni –
Only one plaintiff, Uni. Why is it “their” bite? Are we talking conspiracy here, in the Andes?
“Why is it “their” bite?”
Because you did not specify if it was a ‘he” or a “she”.
unitron
@Uni –
Re: ““Why is it “their” bite?”
Because you did not specify if it was a ‘he” or a “she”.
unitron
C’mon, Uni, you know better than that. “Defendant” is single. I don’t have to specify “If the female defendant … “Or if the male defendant … ” It’s just THE defendant. Solo. So it’s not “their bite.” His bite, maybe (the usual), or, I suppose, if you want to be excruciatingly fair about some non-identified-by-gender defendant barking up a tree, “his or her bite” (but I hate that PC stuff ripping the guts out of the English language … )
All too much, Uni.
Overbite.
You just changed plaintiff to defendant so I’m declaring confusion and bailing out of this particular conversation.
unitron
@Uni –
You’re right, Uni – I wasn’t paying attention. Me culpa, mea maxima culpa. It’s plaintiff, not defendant. (Spend most of my time on this site focusing on the actions of the defendant.)
You’re bailing out? You’re confused? C’mon Uni, you’re not confused. You’re bailing out because Ms. Prissy Piranha caught you with your grammar down.
PirhanaMom-
Sent from my iPod
“Their” Is plural. A better answer would have been “s/he’s bite. ” that’s the current method of including both genders in a singular form.
Sent from my iPod
More spin and nit picking from you. Too funny. You mostly just restated a portion of what I said to suit your slant and then diverted to a minor procedural point (suing the wrong ins. company) that was handled by the plaintiffs with no problem.
@Unitron
Huh? Sybrina didnt’ sue Traveler’s. The HOA gave her a claim form that she completed and filed with Traveler’s. That is what generated Traveler’s Petition seeking a declaratory judgment.
Evidently, you haven’t read the petition neither the attached policy.
right, insurance companies always hand over millions unnecessarily, on frivolous lawsuits. that way they keep their profits to a bare minimum. right.
“right, insurance companies always hand over millions unnecessarily, on frivolous lawsuits. ”
They do if it helps them avoid spending tens of millions instead.
There’s a reason why so-called “nuisance lawsuits” (into which category I am not placing the one under discussion) are brought, it’s because money can be made that way, if its cheaper overall to settle than to fight.
unitron
umm, in my comment to you *millions* cover tens of millions too, like the word *thousands* also include tens of thousands.
and you forgot to read the 2nd sentence about avoiding profits.
so since you didn’t understand what I was trying to say sarcastically. and I wouldn’t want to confuse you and/or ruin your tit for tat, back and forth bullshit arguments in which I can’t see any other reason but for attention. and you clearly need it bad enough you don’t care how you get it.
this case is a wrongful death, and there happens to be criminal charges against a resident of the community the company represents. obviously it takes a lot more evidence of wrong doing to uphold murder charges than civil liability so i’d leave it to a for profit business to decide what their chances in court were.
keep it real.
Businesses (or their insurance companies) frequently pay out settlements (with confidentiality and non-disclosure clauses), even when they are not in the wrong (or at least do not consider themselves to be), when they think it will be cheaper for them than any other alternative.
That’s why it’s called a business decision. If there’s no profit to be made, you select the option that causes the smallest loss, and move on to what will turn a profit.
unitron
Exactly! Which is why the insurance company, whosever it was, decided from a business stand point that it was cheaper to pay millions now, than tens of millions later. That decision was based on what they saw within the case, NOT because going to trial is more expensive. Really, why is this point being argued? They choose the lesser evil of paying smaller millions than bigger millions because they see the culpability.
Sent from my iPod
We all know what’s legal isn’t always ethical . . . in the legal world, perhaps insurance companies don’t have to admit that an incident occurred in a criminal mode, but out here in the real world, the evidence in this case is pretty darn clear that the defendant blew it bigtime.
You may very well be right. It is very typical to settle rather than litigate. But, it could also indicate something else.
Insurance is the evil empire of our world.
oh wow that’s great news for George!
I’m sure he can’t wait to smack down the prosecution during the trial
There he goes again LOLOL:
sundance says:
April 5, 2013 at 10:02 pm
FYI – just off the phone. This “change in the schemers approach to settlement” might be DIRECTLY related to what we have uncovered with the M-DSPD and are in the process of bringing out to the sunlight.
Apparently they decided to take what was available quickly before the entire narrative collapses…. a ‘get it now while the getting is still good’ principle.
interesting.
He’s cracked the case, Johnson
Yep, quite the cracker, he is.
@Rachael. In my first year of college, I had a classmate who liked to cheat. He and I had a heart to heart about that and I let him know I was opposed to it. We were there to learn, to earn a college degree to improve our chances of getting better paying jobs. His response to me was:
“They ask if you got it. They don’t ask how you got it.”
Oh I was going to tell you a story based on something like that but im not up to it tonight.
@Rachael
It’s okay. You get it. It’s the “agree quickly with thine adversary” logic, which is, the ones crying about others getting ahead are those who never made an effort to “get it” in any way, shape, or form.
…And his followers are soo gullible.
lololol these dopes actually believe their own drivel or just trying to make the voices stop??!!!LOLO
What’s M-DSPD? They’re bringing something out into the sunlight? OH NO NOT FOGEN’S LITTLE… weapon? Tell me it ain’t sooooooooooooooooo… 😳
i wish someone like Michael Moore or another investigative journalist would look into and expose the bigger story that has come out of Trayvon’s sad death. Yes, GZ profiling, following, harassing, scaring, shooting and killing trayvon is tragic, so is the fact that he was able to walk away from it as though he just shot a clay pigeon, but the filth that has risen to the surface is beyond me.
Predictably, trayvons parents now only care about their dead son because of the money they can make off him (unlike the zimmermans who have every right to all quit their jobs and solicit payments from their fans because of how inconvenienced they have been).
even if gz wasn’t racially profiling, what he did was wrong. GZ supporters do not care that this kid was not doing anything wrong. Even if trayvon was smoking a blunt and had his pants down around his knees, hell even if he was a gang banger, gz had no right to follow him, chase him down and then shoot him when he defends himself. Race aside, he killed an innocent kid.
But the disgusting racist bile from anyone who thinks GZ was in the right is stomach churning. All the hidden racists have bubbled to the surface and i think their filthy propaganda, bullying tactics and irrational rants are a very real and disturbing sub-culture that needs to be exposed somehow. The justification of Trayvons death, the smear campaign against his innocent family, the hypocrisy of the Zimmerman family who complain about the Martins and the media and then do everything they complain about 100 fold. It is all sickening and quite frankly scares me that there are so many like minded people out there.
Jo — Surely you didn’t mean to say this:
“Predictably, trayvons parents now only care about their dead son because of the money they can make off him (unlike the zimmermans who have every right to all quit their jobs and solicit payments from their fans because of how inconvenienced they have been). — Jo
Because if you did, you are clearly on the wrong track when you say that about Trayvon’s parents. In fact, that remark is both untrue and disgusting.
Perhaps you meant to say that that’s what Fogenphool’s are saying?
I think she was being sarcastic and yes, saying what they say
yes thanks Rachael for clearing that up, i was being sarcastic. By predictably, i meant that as soon as i saw the news i already knew what gz’s “fans” would be saying and true to form (and predictably) that is exactly what they were saying….
Jo — Thanks for clarifying. BTW, am pleased not only with the settlement, but with the before-trial timing. With a payout like that, prospective jurors who’ve seen the headline will get the drift …
I did not think for a minute — not for a SECOND — that jo was saying that about Trayvon’s parents. I read it in jo’s tone of voice. As in, “NOT.”
DON’T FORGET THEY BE FINE CHRISTIAN FOLK TOO. sorry about the caps. I just finished giving someone a piece of my mind on huffington post.
Even Laurel and Hardy are happy for Ben Crump, Sybrina and Tracy.
Great Street dancing!! Can’t help but smile at that one.
Woo hoo!
Yeah, while O’Mara was wasting his time fussing and fuming and harumphing, Crump was down TO IT and getting things DONE and TCB, GO CRUMP!
Where’s unitron
Probably trying to find fault with the wording of the settlement.
Yes, the article got it wrong
Its not over $1 million
Its actually 1 million and one dollars
Unitron put me on to that
isn’t he one of those who said They would not win.
LOL
I did see he attached the Professor !!
To racer trying to find fault Yea exactly
Over at Talk Left.
Mark O’Mara has filed 51 cases with the 5th District Court of Appeals, of these, 30 are v. State of Florida (including the two for his current client)
To the opposition, would this reveal anything about this lawyer’s tactics in using the appeals court for petitions etc, and would his success rate or failure to follow through with the cases, the losses or reasons for filing, reveal anything of use?
I could be wrong, but I think Foggen will now a lawsuit against Sybrina and Tracy seeking funds.
Pay me for killing your youngest child. That could be the worst move he could ever be advised to make. But then I’m not a legal person, just think it may not be well received by any but the handful of shouters for the killer.
@Big Willie
On what legal grounds?
That they let there thug of a son wander freely in the retreats without informing foggagge or the NW
That there Black son aka a real suspious guy would be meandering about an .
That foggagge would spot there Son not know what his deal was an be forced by civic pride to hunt illrgallly detain interogate an shoot there Son.
An thus ruined his shopping trip to target an caused his wife to perjure herself an he needs some tenderness to give her just rewards for his pantpottedness
An thus toward ruined his herwith unbeknown to his towith former good name an standing as a sqeaky clean afroamericanhispanicmerican patriot..
@Colin. LOL! Okay. I get it. GZ’s legal ground is that he is forced to exercise his constitutional rights to a trial by jury. 🙂
Xena- based on the fact that the tree pets are telling him to. Just saw that over there recently.
Sent from my iPod
@cielo62
Tree pets giving legal advice. LOL!!! The tree pets threaten that GZ will sue everybody, and I suppose anyone can file a lawsuit even when there’s no basis in law, but the courts generally enter costs against the plaintiff. IOWs, GZ will be out of more money and put up another begging site.
Xena- that’s tree pets for ya! Always backing the losing horse.
Sent from my iPod
@BigWillie –
What attorney would represent GZ or the Ghastly Zimmerman Tribe on contingency?
There’s no legal grounds
Perhaps on Mars but they do not have intelligent life there, Johnson
LOL@Jun.
I know the concept of Foggen suing the Martins sounds ludicrous, but given Foggens track record of insane antics, I put nothing past him.
NEVER in US history have I seen such outrageous, insane and disrespectful , behavior from a murder and his family and defense attorneys!
1. Not only did Foggen create a website, solict and recieve money for his Schadenfreude Profit Fund, his mammy and pappy jumped on the bandwagon to get a piece of the pie.
2. Osterman wrote a book to get his piece of the pie.
3. Foggen tried to pimp ABC/Barbara Walters for a months stay in a hotel.
4. MOM hit the news circuit in search of money for their Schadenfreude Profit Fund.
5. How about Foggen’s ridiculous lawsuit against NBC,
6. R jr. hopped on the bandwagon and heaven only knows what that creepy dude is looking for. However, you can best believe financial gain is at the end of his rainbow.
and the list goes on…
Foggen is somewhere licking his chops, trying to figure out how to make a move on the Martins money, or thinking maybe he can sue the HOA. He’s probably secretly recording MOM and West so he can sue them and write a book. I don’t think he’ll wait to sue the Martins. Foggen thinks everyone runs through money like him.
IMO, Foggen is sending a clear message to the racist of America, “there’s financial gain in murdering black men”.
@Big Willie. Any lawyer in their right mind would not represent GZ in a suit against the victim’s family. Well, maybe Orly Taitz since her Birther lawsuits have been dismissed and President Obama has been re-elected. 🙂
Xena- how about that Tennis person, the lawyer quoted by the OS to disparage Bernie’s wonderful smack down?
Sent from my iPod
@cielo62
I don’t know about the Tennis person and very seldom read OS. If Tennis is as dumb as Taitz, it would be a circus.
A suit against the Trayvon family would be even more stupid than their NBC lawsuit LOL
What damage can Fogen claim?
Legally, Constitutionally, they had every right under law to investigate and indict the defendant
The media is allowed to report about the defendant and the crime
We can all say whatever we want about Fogen and Fogen can kiss all our asses
Civil suits are under preponderance of evidence and he does not have that for proving that Trayvon instigated the whole altercation
I think even a rookie lawyer or non lawyer could whip Fogen’s ass in a civil suit and then countersue him for damages
I think this case is bloodclot ridiculous
The government and society in general needs more backbone… Fogen killed a kid, after stalking him… stop babying the killer, the guy that did it
@Jun
Yep. In a pleading of 3 pages or less.
Legal grounds not needed. Fogen is a decent American and they have a right to collect from the family of anybody they kill.
@Malisha
IC. Grounds of entitlement. 🙂
At this point no lawsuit, even if it were justified, would go anywhere before the criminal trial. GZ will stand or fall by that alone.
I normally use my tinfoil to bake my chicken in the oven
I’d need to make a hat out of the foil to understand this concept
Please take the chicken out first!
Another thing wich is a huge tell that foggaage is a huge unbeleivable liar.
Is the whopper he spins about his time with a patrol citizen drive along with the police.
Twice in puplic he claims once on a radio show call in an another at some civic hall public meeting he claims.
That dureing his drive along with the police this L E patrol car driver didnt give him info on proceadures to spot arrest an detain criminals oh no.
He showed him the best spots for parking up an sleeping without being observed an pointed out wich retailers they could get free stuff from ect.
An Im thinking is this guy for real does he honestly think an officer takeing a member of public on a drive along would reveal such practices.
To a complete out sider even if thease practices allegations were true would someone blab about it boast to the public.
I dont think so more likely foggagges idea of what wearing a uniform would entail.
Someone posted a vt of his radio phone in I think it was ether Xena or Cherokee Native,Have you still got it?
@Colin. I went to youtube and think I found the video, but it doesn’t have sound so I’m not sure it’s the one. The same thing happened when my son tried listening on his computer. If I am able to find George’s “speech” I’ll post it.
re above I mean two young people every 4 years.
It is indeed a sad way to receive a million dollars .
I in no way would presume to dictate to anyone what why or how to spend there money.
But knowing the type of People of inttegrety an passion the Martins have proven themselfs to be..Along with there feirse love of there Son an refuseal to accept the Bullchit excuse being told as to why there Son was murdered,
He went radio Rental on a sqeaky clean Merican.
A substantial amount of that settlemant could go towards an intital payment towards a charitable fund set up in Trayvons Name to help perhaps children teenagers of all races.
From disedvantaged backgrounds claim a Scholorship fund to be able to attend collage.
Half a million dollars an more donated by charitable sourses could sustain a viable income via intrest profits alone to enable to young people attend collage every 4 years all fees included..
An the inital capital would only grow thus sustaing a fund that would help young people for ever..An could grow an expand to include all kind of charitable deeds to the wefare of deserveing persons.
I tried to stop getting emails when someone comments and I thought I’d done that. Since then, I’ve gotten 3 emails about comments. Fred, could you please take care of that. When I go to subscription options, it says I’m not following anything. Yet, I still get emails. Thank you. Frustrating!
I don’t know how to fix that.
@Jun and the rest of the class …
Re: The insurance settlement’s impact on the HOA:
Jun, condos in Florida and California are increasingly popular with early-career individuals (usually without kids) who want to buy and not rent, and (b) with retirees who want to own a smaller place, not cut the grass & stuff – and do not want to rent.
I have a farm (in CA) but live 4 miles away in a small condo development – 31 free-standing homes in a small private park of 19 acres. It was originally a seniors-only development but CA law changed so there could be no prejudice against kids. The condo works for people here because there’s a crew to mow the village green, the putting green, scour the pools, etc.
CA has strong laws for condos and I expect there is the same status in FL. Nbody put a gun to anybody’s head to buy a condo unit and they take on all the rights and responsibilities when they do. The buyers are “Members” of the Homeowners Association and elect the HOA Board to administer their governance. The individual owners pay “dues” or “fees” that pay the monthly costs of maintenance, and are assessed extra for capital improvements, replacements or repairs (roads, roofs, etc) and must retain a reserve for future replacement costs.
In CA a 260-unit condo is required by State Law to have $1million in liability insurance and often Travelers is the insurance company of choice – they have expertise in condo insurance. I am a director of my HOA and our coverage is with Travelers.
Very few condos would get coverage as little as $1 million and in addition, usually carry an umbrella policy for a million or more. With the size of RATL, if I were a Director there, I would want $4 – $5 million. The increments are not expensive.
Most condos are RATL size and larger and the HOA Board contracts with the Management Company to hire contactors for landscaping, changing the light bulbs, etc.
Commenting on the financial guessing on the site today, here is my input: it would not be hard to find the liability limits on RATL’s insurance with Travelers. Must be way mo’ than $1 million. Crump would have been an idiot to settle for $1 million and he did not. He must have an agreement with Trayvon’s parents re his fees: likely 35% to 50% of the settlement or award. And richly deserved for all the hours of effort the legal team put into this.
Trayvon’s parents also have had huge expenses. Their portion of the settlement will help defray that. Yes, there is no one who would prefer the money to their kid’s life. But unless there is a financial penalty laid on who is responsible, these tragedies will happen again and again.
I don’t know how the retro coverage of the officers’ liability took hold last year. It is amazing that it was not built into the HOA’s policy with Travelers from the beginning. In CA HOA officers (Directors) are not liable under law – but we make certain our HOA policy covers us.
If the settlement is higher than the limits of insurance, then the HOA – meaning all its owners as members – is on the hook for the balance and the HOA would have to assess the owners for that if sufficient funds were not in their Reserve.. As an example, an assessment of $1,000 per unit would bring in $260,000. Likely the dorky Directors are not punished in any way at all – but would have to pay their unit’s assessment.
Bottom line, I expect all of this is covered by insurance. I don’t expect their rate to go up, but ALL condos may pay more in FL (Travelers must be looking again at FL’s SYG law). Doubt that the management company has to pay any of the settlement – they did not vote to approve GZ as their local NW, and as to lights or gates or cameras being inoperable, the HOA has the responsibility to advise them.
I do think “Jenna” and “Jeremy” were not forthcoming during their interviews with LE. She had unknown liability until the settlement because she was on the HOA Board. She sounded snotty and cold-hearted when interviewed and was obviously, to me, not telling all she knew. She sounded totally self-protective, and concerned about what $$$ this might cost her.
This settlement sends a strong statement: a seasoned and independent entity (Travelers) looked at the evidence and found that GZ was so guilty and the HOA responsible for permitting his reign of terror, that they settled.
Obviously the cost of all the legal defense that would be required to go to trial, PLUS payment of every penny in the insurance policy (let’s guess: $3million to $4million) was at HUGE risk, and LOOKING AT THE EVIDENCE, Travelers said, “We’d be freakin’ idiots not to settle.”
And so they did.
This is not really “justice for Trayvon” but it IS vindication and approval of Trayvon’s parents dogged efforts and the Crump team’s efforts as well.
I thank them all. I thank everyone who is working on this case, including our class and Professor Leatherman.
We are on the side of The Angel …
@PiranhaMom
AMEN! AMEN!
There is following a blog, and then there is notification of comments via email. Following a blog will send you an email when a new article is posted. It will not send you comments posted. You can click to unfollow a blog.
However, when you click notification of comments via email, that will continue as long as comments are posted on the page in which you clicked for notification. That cannot be undone. You can wait until comments are no longer posted or, if you use an email client such as Outlook or Windows Live, you can right click on the email for options of sending email to a certain folder upon arrival.
Thanks for answering that question, Xena.
@Professor. No problem.
Your solution is probably the right one, Xena – I was replying after reading for quite awhile. Sorry!
@Two side. No problem. For those who are accustomed to posting in comments to news articles, it’s a different world commenting on blog posts. As I understand it, there are also differences in subscribing to comments on blogspot blogs, as opposed to comments on Word Press blogs.
We live and learn.
Usually you have to check the box “notify me of follow up comments via e-mail.”
If you click reply and see that box checked, try unchecking it.
Greenwarrior — When all else fails, the delete key can be very helpful.
In that email there is a link at the bottom to change options on getting notifications.
Someone upthread in the nest has asked about Fred commenting at HuffPo. Update for folks who don’t know: Fred was banned from HuffPo, years ago. Several sock puppets and psychos over there have stolen his identity and/or said horrible things behind his back, at that site. They have a safe place to do this, because HuffPo does not care about racist sock puppets running their mouths and acting like animals.
For these reasons, I no longer cite HuffPo as a source of news.
that’s why I left
there are plenty of good people but the trolls are out of control
Lets go back as a tag team and just kick ass.
I object to the notion that they are “acting like animals.” I like animals!
Malisha- LOL! Yes, animals kill to eat. Humans kill for fun. I like animals, too. Sometimes over many humans.
Sent from my iPod
@Crane-Station
It’s what they do. Pathetic cowards. They did the same to me and other Trayvon supporters at the OS. Take note- you’ve gotten the best of them when they resort to stealing your identity/username. Imitation is the most sincerest form of flattery.
I’ve seen a few other stolen identities over there too. And it’s not just that site. I can’t believe those sites allow people to behave that way. IMO, it is a personal reflection on them.
Indeed it is and, the OS allows them to go so far as to use the “N” word and any other racial slur that they want to. they don’t llow profanity there but, this they allow and have no problem doing so.
At another site where I post regularly, sock puppets are not tolerated. Moderators can spot the puppets through the IP addresses, at least initially. HuffPo is only hurting itself, because many now view it as not being any kind of a reliable news source. It wasn’t always like that, but sadly, it’s been infested. Makes one wonder what they actually do moderate at HuffPo.
“Makes one wonder what they actually do moderate at HuffPo. ”
Well you could always drop a subtle hint over there that not each and every little thing done by the state of Israel is the pinnacle of perfection and find out for yourself.
unitron
I agree that HP don’t give a $hit about how these racist thugs have just turned that site into a cesspool of racism. I only go there to read the comments of the common sense folks and, that’s it.
I had an account there as well and, the racist idiots had me banned for nothing. I don’t understand how these people can carry so much weight on that sight. I would NEVER sign up for an account there ever again.
And for them to allow the good name of the professor to be used like these racist thugs are doing, speaks volumes as to what they are about.
I honestly believe they are too busy to even give attention to the trolls
I tried emailing them about advertising, and only got one reply and never heard from them again
You’re ahead of us. We never got the courtesy of a reply, not even an automated one.
crane – the primary reason i even read there these days is to report false profiles using fred’s likeness or variation on his name. you guys have a lot of support, i am not the only one doing this. unfortunately, as soon as one of those socks is banned, a dirty one takes its place. huffpost has taken a long dive into the deep end of an unfilled pool since the merger with AOL. it’s disgusting.
We really really appreciate the support and appreciate being notified when this is happening also. There have been times when we have actually had more than a passing concern for our safety, given the vitriol and the doxing going on. That said, my heart goes out to the Martin family and to the girl, W8. Never thought I’d see the likes of such hate.
Thank you Crane-Station. I have reported the psycho sock puppets stealing others identity and nothing has been done. Now I understand the why, huffpo does not care. It is disgusting and I literally get a headache reading most of the comments, my patience has worn thin from dealing with those disrespectful people. The war over there is never ending and getting worse by each comment they make.
I appreciate this blog and learn much from Professor, you and the other members.
Trayvon died an unnecessary death. The HOA settlement screams one million reasons why its about the principal why he should not have died a wrongful death.
So sad about the Martin families loss.
Justice For Trayvon, this is just the beginning.
Start saving Fogen you’re up next. Seeing this settlement me thinks those donations are drying out faster than the Mohjave Desert.
I agree completely about the vile comments from a handful of total asshats on huffington. A couple of days ago I put up a list of dirty sock names that was staggering.
I’ve wanted to give up many times there, and sometimes must take a breather. But when I watch the gleefully attacking the few ‘normal’ people who are that at any given time, I fully realize, that my leaving would be among their rewards. I can’t do that.
Instead I just consider it good practice for my impuls control, and I am quite happy when I contribute to the deletion of their accounts.
Yes, they will be back tomorrow, but so will the fire ants in my yard. That’s no reason to stop eradicating them.
So really, I totally understand your disgust. but when you can, if you can, come back for a while. We could use you all.
-hotheadpaisen
Well, I can come back, but for real, Fred can’t. He can’t even defend himself over there, nor can he point out that his identity has been stolen. As for me coming back, I’ll think about it, but me going in there so far has been about as effective as pissing up a rope, plus I always have to watch a new rash of attacks on me, just because I am married to him and I have served a prison term. It’s always the same: SHE served time, therefore HE is [fill in the blank]. I’m just tired. Tired of the attacks. Every time I speak up I get a notice from Twitter that a ‘third party’ has attempted to do something with my Twitter account or some other nonsense, so I decided…not worth it. At least for now. I may think about it in the future sometime, but I can’t handle it for now. I know that looks like giving up but I can’t help it. I’ve never been any good at conflict anyway.
New motion filed.
Click to access petition.pdf
Well, the motion is new to me. I haven’t read all comments on the last thread yet, so you guys may already know about it.
WOOHOO for the settlement. Too bad they will be bashing Trayvon’s parents and Crump even more now.
A second petition?
nevermind, hoped not to go to that website if I’d seen it already, thanks. Check the discussion in a prior thread if you like.
I haven’t been keeping up. How did George Zimmerman become Fogen? And what does NW stand for.
I asked the same question about fogen, it refers to someone whose name is to be forgotten, shorted to fogen. It’s not derrogatory, and simply is a way to not recognize the killer’s name.
NW = neighborhood watch
Thanks!
” It’s not derrogatory…”
Oh, it’s very much intended to be derogatory.
http://frederickleatherman.com/2012/11/28/trayvon-martin-case-banishing-zimmermans-name/#comment-40177
unitron
Yes uni, it’s intended to take power away from the defendant and focus our view on the victim. If an individual chooses to see that as “derogatory” then you don’t understand the purpose of the word.
Sent from my iPod
“If an individual chooses to see that as “derogatory” then you don’t understand the purpose of the word.”
Okay, let me know the next time you apply that same treatment to someone of whom you think highly.
unitron
Hey I myself don’t use the word. Just explaining its function.
Sent from my iPod
@Uni,
I don’t give a rat’s ass if calling this Murder2 defendant “Fogen” is derogatory. Or not.
I think it’s brilliant.
It’s not derogatory and anyone who thinks it is has an issue. Remember last weekend tron stated his ONLY concern was that this is fair for FOGEN and FOGEN alone. He wants a fair trial for FOGEN, the victim matters not ‘eh tron?? Your words.
@racer — yup on the uni words. we all saw it.
Yep. The real world wants a fair trial no matter what, it’s the law and Justice for Trayvon based on what we know now. Tron ONLY wants it fair for Fogen…….his words…’nuff said. The Z word applies as far as I’m concerned.
It’s applied only to historic figures whose memory people want to forget, and at this blog, most of us would like to see Fogen’s name “forgotten.”
Still stirring the pot, I see, Unitron.
What would we do without the ‘tron, 🙂
Fogen II, is what we’d do
well I guess you could consider the popular term of endearment “honey” as a derogatory name too.
as honey is in essence Honey Bee puke!
Honey bees transform nectar into honey by a process of regurgitation and evaporation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey
😉
Awhile back, someone observed that calling this the George Zimmerman case was giving the guy a lot of attention and that wasn’t right. Professor brought up an ancient Egyptian custom of forgetting the names of those who do evil and I followed it up with the Jewish mannerism of adding the phrase, “May his name be forgotten” at the end of any phrase speaking about a nasty tyrant or a notorious evildoer. So I shortened “FOrGEt his Name” to “FOGEN” and some people liked it and it caught on.
Your version appealed to me from the get-go. (Although, upon further reflection, Fatgun or Fartgun might also be apropos.)
LLMPapa raised a “?” some time ago, and I’d like to revisit it for a moment. I wasn’t following blogs at the time, and don’t know where this went in discussions here. Maybe someone can let me know (again) if this has been covered, I don’t think you people miss a heck of a lot! Thanks, if so I’ll search back around the date of this video.
Particularly interested if anything else has come out about Officer Mike Bernosky S1123-CL.
This officer knew something about the killer in advance of his visit and taping (and tagging) that fateful night. Even more interesting that, as Papa pointed out, there was no report to be found.
Consider the tag caller’s response to ‘Zimmerman’, he doesn’t ask have you got a first name or address, he doesn’t ask for a description or age, he asks instead, nothing more’.
Bernosky “arrived after everything was stabilized. He assisted with crime scene tape.
How was it that he attended the scene, was he called in, or did he hear the call on his radio and diverted from his traffic duties on his own? Was he interested because he knew fogen personally, and once ‘involved’ could vouch for him as a security presence working on behalf of residents?
We can only speculate, so far on that.
But there is something else that will blow yet another ‘lie’ out of the water that fogen that never passed the smell test in his earliest interviews with Serino, and that was (paraphrasing) ‘how do you not know the three streets in your neighborhood’ when you are head of ‘neighborhood watch’ and you have lived here for (three?) years.? Fogen answer, ‘I have a bad memory anyway’.
Guess where fogen directed dispatch to when he called for assistance in securing a residence where the alarm had gone off?
This was a call about 2PM on a Friday afternoon, 11/26 2010
Caller/complainant fogen had no trouble giving the two street names for his duty to this resident. And this was not hte only call in which he had no trouble providing those two street names.
source PG 36
http://www.motherjones.com/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history
Did he get paid for his security efforts to be called in (did he leave work?) when the resident’s security alarm went off when the resident was out of town? Called mid afternoon on what was possibly a day of work, to attend to an alarm?
“Consider the tag caller’s response to ‘Zimmerman’, he doesn’t ask have you got a first name or address, he doesn’t ask for a description or age, he asks instead, nothing more’.”
He read them the plate number and asked if it was registered to anyone at Twin Lakes.
They came back with the last name of the person to whom it was registered. They could just as easily have said “yes”.
Since he was only looking for cars that were from outside the neighborhood (which might have been driven there by the then still unidentified victim), and they did not come back and tell him that the plate number he gave them was to a car from outside the neighborhood, that was all he needed to know about it.
Nothing sinister. Not part of any conspiracy.
unitron
unitron, not suggesting ‘conspiracy’, we KNOW he had past professional contact with the shooter and may have recognized he name. He was a traffic cop and what they do on occasion is observe vehicles that are parked, they may on occasion, even run a tag.
amsterdam, after the fact, we see the SA investigator’s report, not a word, not a question about the vehicle to substantiate the killer’s story and variations.
And we haven’t seen and O’Mara jumping up and down, report in hand, to let the world know that what his client said was the substantiated by the SA investigators, which surely would have been turned over to the defense. (hey, proving anything that client said was not a lie, is big news!!)
(correction to link to the police call where Bernosky responded and would have met fogen, see pg. 35, not 36)
“unitron, not suggesting ‘conspiracy’,”
Like hell you’re not.
“This officer knew something about the killer in advance of his visit and taping (and tagging) that fateful night. Even more interesting that, as Papa pointed out, there was no report to be found.”
” we KNOW he had past professional contact with the shooter and may have recognized he name.”
Nobody told Bernosky to go check for vehicles of people he knew.
Nobody told him to go check out the vehicles of the people who lived in the neighborhood.
Nobody told him “The shooter is a guy from the neighborhood named Zimmerman, go check around for his vehicle”.
They told him to go check for vehicles not owned by residents, to see if they could get a clue as to the identity of the victim.
unitron
unitron, you are thinking too hard. Leave that night behind and think of what we haven’t got from the SA Investigator’s reports when he interviewed this officer and Adam Johnson.
Both had prior contact with the NW caller. Reason is not that it’s about conspiracy, my fault for bad writing if it’s taken that way, it’s that at least Bernosky can affirm the killer’s account of where and how he left his vehicle parked, and that’s never been revealed to us in documents.
The report in the video is from the SA investigator, and you can bet if there’s something incriminating that they found during their work on the case, they don’t have to tell the defendant that they know about it.
But that said, as I know you will, take this as you like. The video said it all anyway.
PS unitron, please don’t swear at me, that’s not nice.
Hey I’m gonna say the “C” word. There was, in my studied opinion, a conspiracy on the part of AT LEAST SPD, Wolfinger, HOA and Fogen’s family, to cover-up the murder of Trayvon Martin. I believe most of the police officers in the SPD were in on the conspiracy. I don’t have enough details to tell which were most involved, which were passively involved, and which were not even passively involved, but there will probably be something to be learned about this after DOJ does its very slow work, unless DOJ decides that most of America should really put this to rest and stop thinking about it.
I’m sure DOJ would like to just forget about it and go to stealth mode, grabbing a few here and there, in the hopes that over time the pressure will work. But they’ve been robbed of the luxury to do that because, the Aryan Brotherhood is killing public officials. With their network and cash horde, that probably even reaches high in state and local governments, not to mention sympathizers in the Federal level, they have to either be slapped down fast, or become even more difficult to move against later, after they’ve had the benefits of the coercion they accumulate due to a “do little to nothing response” and their successful intimidation and/or killings. Remember, their leadership is already in prison, so they have little more to fear from the law.
This many headed hydra has to be dealt with quickly and decisively. They’ve raised their racism to the level of a political revolutionary force. Now sit back and watch your tax dollars at work.
Ay2z
You should check the dates on the narratives. Only Ayala and Smith wrote narratives early the next morning. I think the last narrative was written 3 weeks after Trayvon was killed. The SPD needs a major check on their procedures.
Not all of them filed reports. IIRC Bernosky was directed by someone his sr to go tag the cars. I am too tired to look for it know. I’ll check it tomorrow.
They were sent to the scene in large numbers. My impression is that many of them were just standing there picking their noses or what they call it ” assisting with the crime tape”.
Bernosky appears to be junior personal. I don’t think there is anything suspicious about him not having filed a report.
yeah, could be but checking tags is something he did, that isn’t on a supplemental report. Especially when one vehicle he tagged was the killer’s vehicle– where, how oriented, time, how disposed of, if he knows (who alerted to move it etc).
I did some checking. Bernosky is identified as part of Traffic, not patrol. He arrived around 7:31 pm. In the contamination log Sgt Santiago is noted as arriving at the scene at 8:20 pm. In his narrative he writes, he tells a supervisor to have some officers go door to door within the limits of the crimetape and tells one officer to check vehicle tags parked along the road on both sides of the incident. The event log shows contacts with people in the neighborhood and checks for vehicle tags starting at 8:32 pm. Bernosky clears the scene at 20:56.
I have a cousin who is a detective and was joking about the good old days, when all she had to do at a crime scenes was to stand on a drain cover.
Bernosky as I far as I can see, was just one of the guys, who would stand on a designated spot, until a higher ranked person would tell him to do something. He was just told to check vehicle tags, and that is what he did. I am sure that he was asked the location of the cars and which way they were facing. The interviewer didn’t put it in his report for whatever reason. Notes are not discoverable, reports are.
“I am sure that he was asked the location of the cars and which way they were facing.”
If you mean he was asked that at the time (late that night, next day or day after) when they were writing up reports, then very unlikely.
They were trying to identify the victim, so they were running plates looking for cars that did not belong to people who lived there.
They had no idea at the time that there would be any need to know which way a resident’s car was facing.
But I sure hope someone asked him about that later on.
unitron
@Uni –
Serious question: it was established that both Zimmerman-registered vehicles were parked near (as adjacent as possible) the crime scene.
Was it ever established who drove them to the site? We are assuming one was GZ. Who drove and parked the second vehicle? Was that driver (with or without passenger) ever identified by the cops as BEING at the crime scene following the killing?
Any documentation about this?
“it was established that both Zimmerman-registered vehicles were parked near (as adjacent as possible) the crime scene.”
Where might one find an official record of that?
unitron
@Uni –
The cop reports you’re discussing. Both Hondas parked. If I have to go back and cite the page, give me a day or so, You don’t recall this?
I remember it well. In fact we discussed this a few months ago at large.
@Racer –
Thanks! If Racer remembers, it’s etched in stone. Or ASCAP.
If the vehicle had a driver (or passenger) sitting in it, wouldn’t you think the cop would note that? Tap on he window, say “Pardon me Miss, would you mind showing me your vehicle registration?”
We have two Zimmerman vehicles there? Cops did not consider this unusual? (Incidentally, I checked the real estate site for RATL a few months back and the units seem to have one-car garages. Do not know if this is so for their rental unit.)
Was Osterman at Zimmerman’s house before George left “for Target?” When Jon called Shellie for GZ, did Shellie tell Osterman, and he drove over from the Zimmermans – in a Zimmerman car – with or without Shellie? Why not in HIS car? Did they both dash over – in two cars, but Osterman’s car is not identified by the cops at the scene – or was it? And Shellie is nowhere near her vehicle – never noted to be at the death scene?
Shellie is sitting at home like a potted palm, all through the aftermath of the killing, until GZ calls from SPD and tells her to come down with a change of clothes for him?
I don’t see it that way.
Any ideas?
I believe that SheLie was there from the start. I believe Osterman or Taaffe was also. The basically herded Trayvon back to Fogen. The phone records will show the details. There is far more going on here, but the authorities have a handle on it.
@Racer
“I believe that SheLie was there from the start. I believe Osterman or Taaffe was also. The basically herded Trayvon back to Fogen. The phone records will show the details. There is far more going on here, but the authorities have a handle on it.”
Then I hope they can squeeze Shellie to spill all: that he chased Trayvon with his lights out, and he headed out that night to make a “capture.”
Usually when one of the parties drops out of the limelight, something is afoot…..Where is SheLie…..? I believe they have a handle on her and by the time the trial starts we’ll know what to expect.
Racer- Honestly, where is George? Not one embarrassing peep out of him or his wife. Personally I don’t think they are still together. The tree pets seem to think they are hanging tough together, like in some hokey romantic tragedy. But this is reality. Even as mentally challenged as we might suspect Shellie to be, she’s smart enough to feel the water lapping her feet on this sinking ship. Any kind of felony record in connection with the perjury will end any hope for a future for herself. Even if she gets probation, she will still be a convicted felon. And with hubby behind bars possibly for life, she needs to think about número uno.
Sent from my iPod
I agree, who will hire her at this point. If she defects, someone may say, “..at least she wised up and did the right thing”
@Racerrodig:
It is hard for me to elicit some kind of sympathy for Shellie because I know she had a rough life but I know many individuals of all ethnic groups who had it rougher than she did. Up to now, I have not seen Shellie make a move in the direction of testifying against Fogen but if she is doing that, that woudl be amazing and that would free her. She would be in PC for the rest of her life however, but salvation would be hers finally away from that family and away from Fogen who is only bringing her misery, pain, scorn and hatred. What kind of life is that?
That would be a start in the right direction for her. She appears to be an emotionally abused wife to me. She may have been scared of Fogen who probably intimidated her throughout their marriage because we know how crazy he is! He couldnt support the household, they were dependent upon his folks for money and rent money and she could not fufill her own dreams because of Fogen always getting involved in one mess after another. Through this terrible time, I feel she may have been thinking and pondering her life up to now. Maybe, she has gathered enough strength these past few months to finally take a stand and do the right thing. She is facing perjury charges and possible jail time herself. If she turns against him, she will be saving herself. She needs to do that and I hope she does.
Well said and at this point I don’t have any sympathy for her, but if she does the right thing, I’ll respect that.
@Cielo –
@Racer –
Frankly, I think Shellie ought to be in protective custody (and maybe she is). Life has not handed Shellie many plums. Not the kind of parents who would be supportive and good examples. Married into a monster family. Shellie needs a chance to rehabilitate herself, and if she was in that Honda with George, hunting down Trayvon, she has the very opportunity that she – and justice – need.
Tell the jury what happened.
Yep, I believe she and or Osterman and or Taaffe were there. Her father spent a few years in prison as a matter of fact.
BDLR’s literary smack down of the defense, the HOA and their insurers abject capitulation ahead of the trial, NBC’s response included facts detrimental to the defense (they asked for it, they got it, MOM had to shut it down by agreeing to suspend it or face more motions like that). Then the handwritten DD information, that Trayvon may very well have passed thru Colonial Village, even if he didn’t stop there, because he did make the mail kiosk in RATL by 6:54. Which would lead one to believe that even more information about that night, was discovered in some of those other collected cctv videos that had gone unexamined.
What could be in those other cctv’s? Well, how about a better view of the car carrying those 3 guys, who hid their faces at the 711? What if they’re seen driving along TM’s route both ways? What if they managed to get the name of the guy who used his card at 711? Then discovered that the cars license number was in police records for some reason? Traced that and found the drivers number on GZ’s phone? Or, maybe GZ’s phone number showed up on that wide screen phone the police confiscated on 2/7/12?
Not to mention that nobody knows where GZ’s gun went, such that he had Shelly’s gun that night. No mention of whether he lost it, sold it , gave it away? Maybe used in a robbery and the robbers fingerprints show up in GZ’s truck or in his house?
With GZ we cannot possibly know what has shut him up, but we can theorize that it has to be something pretty darned bad. MOM hasn’t even mentioned GZ’s nose anymore. All of which are very good reasons that the tree house is going over the edge… Again! 😆
That’s what I think too, someone was up ahead of Trayvon in the distance, Trayvon probably thought it was Fogen again and turned back. Meanwhile Fogen was using that tiny light as a beacon to signal down to the southern end of the dog walk. By keeping that light in his fist, it could not be seen from the sides, you’d have to be within a few degrees of straight ahead of GZ in order to see the light.
Meanwhile, GZ is supposed to be in the truck alone, he’s supposed to be on the dog walk alone, but we keep hearing all these noises. It’s clear that GZ could not be responsible for all of these noises, but someone or something has to be making the noises. We have only GZ’s word for it that the knocks are on the “troublesome” flashlight, but Serino finds the flashlight is performing flawlessly, eh? Is it possible that GZ could be telling a lie about rapping on it? Well, yes, in fact it highly probable that he is lying. Troublesome flashlights do not perform flawlessly. Anyone who has owned a troublesome flashlight knows that it always gives trouble. Serino shook it and hit the switch, shook it again and hit switch several times and every time it worked perfectly. GZ has been using flashlights on patrols for months, obviously he relies on having a reliable flashlight with him. So the knocking must have been something else.
I didn’t catch that Bernoli found two Zimmerman cars on TTL. I thought he found GZ’s truck and the HOA Presidents vehicle that’s always illegally parked there. I picked up that from Osterman’s book that someone posted some passages from, that Osterman says that Shelly called him and he raced over to RATL. arriving at the back gate right behind Shelly, and he “drafted” in behind her when her code opened the gate. Explaining why he didn’t code in, if coding in is recorded.
No one understands why the police closed the main gate, yet left the east gate unattended. But if the gate code ins are stored, then maybe the SP knows that Shelly was already inside and therefore Osterman had to be inside already too.
You’re reading my mind. During the enhanced NEN call you can hear someone say “…tell ’em this…” after what sounds like paper rustling. At that point is when he sounds drunk…more like distracted. Has anyone ever said something to you while you were on the phone. My guess is yes and you stuttered a bit.
@ Lonnie,
So are you saying Shellie says she was somewhere else OUTside RATL, in her vehicle, at the time GZ shot Trayvon?
So she got the call from “Jon” right after the shooting – on her cellphone, in her vehicle, outside RATL?
And she then called Osterman?
And they were in different locations, but each equidistant from RATL, so that she reached the front gate and miraculously Osterman was right behind her, and drafted in after her, when she coded in to open the gate?
Isn’t this choreography somewhere on the Immaculate Conception scale?
“Isn’t this choreography somewhere on the Immaculate Conception scale?”
That’s one way of putting it !!!!
If you listen to Fogen, immaculate conceptions are the norm! 😀
Thank God SheLie said she can’t bear live young !!!!!
Hahaha… You’d better believe it. IIRC this comes from MO’s book. Shelly was at her fathers place (I don’t know where that is, anyone?) and MO was out walking his dog. (I don’t have his address either, anyone? All I know is Lake Mary somewhere).
So then, John or Jon calls Shelly. I note that GZ rushes him along because he needs the call to be very brief, if Shelly is to have time to call MO, and then have both of them get there (before some one spots them hiding on the grounds and blows their cover).
So then, Shelly quickly calls MO and she then runs to her car, drives to RATL, sees the front gate blocked and drives around to the back, and miraculously MO is there right behind her as she enters her code, so he drafts in behind her, and that explains how he got inside without having to code in.
Of course, he also could have gotten inside, without coding in, if he got there before 7pm. So there’s that. Could Shelly have driven out after the shot was fired? Waited a few minutes then swung around and coded in at the east gate? Or, maybe they were both inside and just waited to get the calls as cover, before they exposed themselves.
As we’ve learned, many things are possible. But what GZ says is not!
On page 11 of the 33 page GZ-Discovery-Redacted-0919.pdf, there is mention of a white Honda at 8:32:59 pm and grey Honda at 8:47:15 pm, but no mention of who owned either.
Those are the only two mentions of running tag numbers, but it’s almost 15 minutes between them.
Maybe Shellie was parked on the easternmost leg of RVC, but putting her car there at 8:30-ish means nothing about where it was almost an hour and a half earlier.
Has it ever been established for sure and certain what Shellie was driving at the time?
I thought I remembered something about her having a Toyota, but if I saw that anywhere it would have been almost a year ago, so I ain’t gonna bet the ranch.
unitron
@Uni –
Thanks – my understanding is that they already knew the identity of GZ’s car (I expect he told Tim Smith) but that they questioned the second and IT came up as a second Zimm family vehicle.
I’m unaware of a Toyota owned by Shellie earlier but at that time there was not the focus on Shellie that there is now.
Well, we’ll know more soon.
Also, thanks for the evening’s jousting. Cool stuff.
But both came up, apparently, as registered to one or more TRATL residents, and they were looking for cars from the outside as a possible aid in identifying the victim, so no reason they knew of at the time to take any more notice of them.
And by the time Bernosky found the white one, Zimmerman had been taken down to the police station almost 45 minutes earlier, so he might not have even known the shooter’s name at that point, since they didn’t know then that his vehicle had anytihng to do with the case.
unitron
My next sentence says the interviewer didn’t put it in his report for what ever reason. I guess that is not clear enough for you.
“My next sentence says the interviewer didn’t put it in his report for what ever reason.”
If Bernosky did not fill out a report himself that night, but someone else in the police department included what he did in a report, and then later the FDLE talked to him, that’s 2 interviewers, and you didn’t specify which one. And at that point FDLE might not have realized the question needed to be asked, either.
Didn’t the state declare fairly early on that there was nothing of interest on the clubhouse videos?
unitron
But of course Unitron
I am sure that is how police departments operate. After a traffic cop ends his shift, he’ll sit down for an interview so his observations of that day can be included in another officer’s narrative.
How did I ever survive without your astute observations.
Thank you so much.
But now I can’t lay claim on your precious time any longer, I just know there all these other lost souls, surfing the waves of internet confusion, longing to be saved by you.
I can hear the voices now; Unitron, Unitron.
You’re right to point out that Bernosky knew GZ, but the taped exchange in LLMPapa’s video sounds like the woman on the phone also knew him: Bernosky asks if the vehicle is registered to anyone in RATL, and she replies, “Zimmerman” instead of “yes.”
They all felt like they knew him!
Interesting, thanks!
For the call Bernosky responded to with the house alarm going off, fogen was there to meet him presumably, as he had a key for his resident who was away at the time. 2 pm on a Friday, who leaves work to attend to an alarm? A very good friend or family member, or someone who is being paid to take on private work? Second call about a house problem, fogen was at work, and said if necessary he could leave work. Strange for such a frugal person to lose pay and ask for time off to attend to someone else’s house. Just strange.
This is the saddest million dollars i never saw. Pretty sure Trayvon’s family feels the same way,.
It definitely is and, I know they fee the same way because, no matter what these cave men/women say, this kid meant everything to those parents and that family as a whole. even though Tracy and Sybrina were divorced and, (yes men and women get divorced in all races) they still shared and LOVED that kid even more. I said that because the cave people act as if whites don’t get divorced and, that only AA kids are raised in single parent homes. NOT TRUE and they know it!
I myself never knew that families were separated by divorce so much, until I started working with white kids. I never knew anybody who was divorced because, I and the other kids in my neighborhood had both parents in the home. so for those who support Fogen and, think Tracy and Sybrina being divorced is something that is unique in the AA race, those guys know better and they know it.
These people have been so mean to this family and, their hate and disrespect of them is not even necessary. and now according to these same people, these parents were in this only for the money. nothing could be further from the truth and these people know they would have done the very same thing as Tracy and Sybrina did.
Ladystclair Yes I think they were a very close family.I watched an interview with his Grandparents or Uncle and Aunt not sure but they were devastated and were lovely people also I think his Grandfather was a retired Police Officer.
yes I saw that interview with his aunt and uncle. they were an especially close family! Trayvon had a lot of VERY GOOD male role models, including non-family. that means he was even MORE loved than most kids!
and this is what is killing these cave people ( and i’m gonna steal that name cas it’s a really good describer of their primitive, back woods, unsophisticated and limited mental capacity ) they can’t stand the fact that Tray WAS a very well rounded, well traveled, well educated and enjoyed a relatively privileged childhood!
they just can’t take it! both his parents were pretty ideal parents. they both are well paid professionals in their fields, and they BOTH took care and responsibility for this black child.
they can’t get it through their bigoted, brainless heads that Trayvon was NOT a delinquent, and his teachers came out early on and publicly confirmed he was on the honors role and HAD NO VIOLENCE on his record! NONE! this came from independent witnesses with no reason to lie and verifiable facts!
they can wish all they want, they can suspect all they want, they can accuse all they want, but they will still be dead wrong about Trayvon Martin! he was a good kid, he was loved and nothing gz can say or do will ever change that fact! period!
@shannoninmiami
Well said!
INDEED the saddest, but I’m sure Trayvon’s parents accrued an enourmous amount of dept fighting for justice for their son.. At least now they have enough money for experts, security and to protect their identities from the Zidiots ON TOP of the fact that it gives me “HOPE” that this case is going in the right direction… JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON MARTIN!
“debt”
*Shrug my Shoulders*… This is definitely one clear example of how money cannot fix everything… Trayvon is still gone forever and they still have one big ass hole blasted into their lives FOREVER.
It’s so sad… but we must continue on the road to …
JUSTICE FOR TRAVON!
indeed that something was SKIN COLOR!
EXACTLY!
The Colonial Village connection is getting more and more interesting.
Nice filling in the blanks, there LLMPapa! Thumbs up!
Sure is!
I believe Trayvon may have stopped for shelter at “LAKE’S EDGE” here’s why… Lake’s Edge is located on the same side of the street, right down the street from 7-11.. Trayvon would have to walk pass Lakes Edge (on Reinhart) before getting to either cut threw, Colonial Village or THE RETREAT at Twin Lakes… AND, because theres a SHED/gazebo like structure right offa the sidewalk at Lakes Edge’s entrance Trayvon would have walked pass too… So if DD said Trayvon took shelter under a “SHED” right after leaving 7-11, that would be the closet one, IMHO..
If anyone here is familiar with google earth you’ll see what I’m talking about…
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=1111+retreat+view+circle&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.44770516,d.aWM&biw=1024&bih=663&wrapid=tlif136526471047810&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&ei=bUlgUcT6MMSXrAHk5YGgDw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg
click the picture of the complex, then use the little arrows to go right on oregon, take it all the way to reinhart (there will be parked cars at the end).. go left on reinhart… keep straight till you pass a “MALL” sign, CARMAX, Seminole Town Center, and Toyota all on the right hand side of the street… On the left side of Reinhart, (across from Toyota) theres’s a strip mall just past 1st Toyota sign…. 7-11 is directly across from toyota’s second sign, a few feet down the road… (Trust Bank and Boston Fish house which is next door to 7-11, are some of the stores in the strip mall)… At the end of that strip mall you should see the 7-11… now… go on to the 7-11 side of the road and go back towards “OREGON and Towne CTR Drive.. Notice at the corner of Reinhart & Plantation BLVD/Towne CTR Drive is “Lakes Edge’s” and right off the side walk there’s a shed/gazebo right at the entrance of the complex… I believe this is another possible place where Trayvon could have taken shelter from the rain.. It only makes sense because its the closest “shed/gazebo to 7-11… just my thoughts…
ugh… just click the link under “did you mean” 1111 retreat View circle sanford, FL then click the picture.
I feel like I must have missed a thread cause I’m clueless on the Colonial Village connection. The picture LLMPapa is using in his video is so far in the apt. complex I feel that Trayvon would have had to been lost to get there. Possible. But…
@FactsFirst
I agree with you that Lakes Edge has the perfect shed for getting out of the rain after leaving the 7-11.
It’s about .2 miles from there and would have taken 4-5 minutes of walking.
It is within sight of the path Trayvon used to walk home.
It’s before the gated entrance arm.
If you go to the intersection of Rineheart Rd / Towne Center Blvd you can see it very clearly on google maps street view.
Maybe that’s the reason for the video in the discovery. Does anyone have the approx time TM left 7-11? Would be interesting if her call times placed him there about 5 minutes after leaving the 7-11 and we have a corresponding timestamp on the video from the complex.
Here’s the approximate times and more, save this link to my Master Revisable Timeline, I keep it updated with things people find a time for, that can be verified. and it’s got links in it to some of the important articles related to certain times and events, and I will add more as I find them too. http://tinyurl.com/bn5e4xe
That’s why I call it a “revisable” timeline.
I just signed up to get email updates.
Great, as I find things that have verifiable times I add them. If you find something leave it in a comment with a link to the authority and I’ll add it.
George over extended his duties of neighborhood watch to the Colonial Village….He knows he can’t tell that portion of his tall tale…He can’t say i was visiting my sister when we noticed Trayvon standing under the mail kiosk and that is when i started my stalking venture.
Wouldn’t that be somethin’!
If he had clients over there, taking care of any alarms going off when they are away, as he did for at least one resident in R at Twin Lakes in November, 2010, that surely would be interesting.
It would also be interesting to find a floor plan of the building where ‘Sis’ had her apartment/condo because the condo with a consecutive number to hers, is listed for rent on the Colonial website right now, and it has one bdrm and am 11′ x 7′ patio at the same end.
Interesting to know how this patio with views to two sides, was positioned to the streets, and if it had a view to the mail kiosk.
Interesting speculation. Not sure how it could be proven in court however.
Maybe the GPS data will back up the idea that GZ was “patrolling” his sister’s complex that night, but even then it’s hardly proof that he spotted TM at the time and then followed him to the RATL. I’m not sure how to make that stick in a court of law as proof of stalking or profiling. For this theory to work in the prosecution’s favor, they are going to need proof of a “tip off” I’d say.
Maybe they have that, maybe they don’t. Many things are possible; what GZ claims happened isn’t possible.
If there were GPS proof that GZ was in the Colonial Village it would prove he pushed a false narrative about going to Target to shop for groceries. But he’s already provably telling a false narrative, so that’s nothing new IMO, really. Sort of a “piling on” of evidence that he’s a liar. The more the merrier, I say but until I see proof in the public realm I’ll be satisfied with the proof we already have regarding his lies about stopping in the clubhouse parking lot, and the ridiculous “doubling back to circle the vehicle” story.
The GZ-went-to-colonial-village theory is just that, a theory. Let’s hope the prosecution is investigating this theory and that they find the proof it takes to confirm or deny it. Everyone has a natural curiosity about how this exactly went down. But we may never know, absent a full and credible confession by the killer.
Thanks LLMpapa for the video. I’m not trying to be critical here, just clear.
Excellent, as usual.
Papa, just a few thoughts about this new info..
I believe Trayvon wound up it the other complex for a while. I’m not sure of the exact location of the mail shed in relation to the path he traveled home… i’ll have to go back to see the map on your other video to see if it looks like a natural path to take on foot…
this info could also lead to which entrance he walked in from. was it the gate using the code or was it a short cut from the other complex? that complex might have had a video at one time…
When did Trayvon RUN???
now we wonder if Trayvon saw gz there first or if it wasn’t until he arrived at RTL…???
soooo, he goes to the closest complex to shelter from the rain. if he sees gz there at that time I don’t expect him to be nervous at all.
I don’t think he’d be worried to see gz sitting in a car there. it was rainy, maybe the guy was sitting in his car waiting out the rain himself… so Trayvon wouldn’t be running from that complex…
but once he was in his own complex and there’s gz again it would have freaked him out big time! and he’s seeing gz close enough to see he’s on the phone, he could also see that this guy didn’t have on a uniform too. that would be very scary to me. and a pretty good reason to RUN!
i just think in ordinary circumstances a 17 y.o. might have thought the guy was a cop or security guard for the complex, at first… in my complex there are three buildings and three different parking lots, but the same security guy rolls around all of the parking lots. he’s usually in a golf cart, but if it’s raining or cold or whatever he’ll drive his own truck.
BUT he’s always dressed in a clearly marked *security* type uniform!
This is a quote from the OS article: “The policy had a $1 million limit, according to federal court records, and went into effect March 30, 2012, a few weeks after Trayvon was shot. Trayvon’s mother filed a claim with the insurer after it went into affect, according to federal court records.”
I was wondering how/why this insurance company would have been liable in the first place? Can someone explain this to me? I would have thought that the insurance company that was in place at the time of the shooting would have been liable and not an incoming one after the shooting.
**Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for the Martin family getting a settlement in their wrongful death suit, I just don’t understand why this company.
towerflower asks
commercial insurance policies differ from personal insurance policies in that they can be purchased (at considerable premium) to cover past date periods. it does appear that the HOA was underinsured at the time of the incident, they did the next smartest thing by purchasing coverage soon thereafter.
Thanks, that explains a lot. I was curious about that especially since they first petitioned the court about their liability but then dropped it.
@towerflower. The policy issued in March 2012 was for HOA directors in their personal capacity. It is not a homeowner’s policy. Traveler’s motioned the court for a declaratory judgment to determine whether they were responsible to defend the HOA on Sybrina’s claim. The HOA failed to file an answer and Traveler’s motioned for a default judgment. The court denied that motion and subsequently, the case was dismissed by Travelers.
@Xena
Are you saying Traveller’s aren’t the insurer that have paid out because that is how I am reading the OS article as well as another article from CFNews 13 I have posted lower down which also notes the same. It also notes that the Court has found no reason for the settlement to be confidential giving Crump 10 days to appeal, so if unsuccessful it will presumably be disclosed with the amount and names.
What I don’t understand, is how a policy, apparently that is the policy that is for 1m$ max liability, the HOA only took out in March would consider themselves liable for an event that took place in February so it may be there is a lot of misinformation at the moment.
@gbrbsb
Traveler’s is the insurance that filed for a declaratory judgment in the federal court. By the news articles, the lawsuit was filed in the County court, so the cause of action with the claim, filed in federal court, is not the actual lawsuit that was filed in the County court.
I read the article too, but for now will sit on it because maybe the reporter may have misunderstood.
It would seem that the settlement instrument itself should have a clause for confidentiality. If not, then it’s not worth appealing the court’s decision. If it does not remain confidential and anyone wants the settlement document, they will have to pay the fee to the clerk of the court for a copy.
Who is paying the money is really of no consequence. The HOA settled and even if it’s a structured settlement, Trayvon’s parents have received redress from the HOA.
@Xena
Yes, or no depending how you read this! OS has an updated edition of the article the Professor posted and according to them Travelers have given a prepared statement saying they are not the payers. I have posted links to both the CF and OS articles stating this further downthread.
@gbrbsb Traveler’s may not have been involved. Their involvement was in the federal court for the court to decide whether they had to represent the HOA on Sybrina’s claim. That case was dismissed.
So it looks like attorney Crump filed a lawsuit against the HOA in the County Court. Based on the reporter trying to contact the attorney for the management company, that gives reason to believe that the management company is the money bag for the settlement. We can wait and see,and not worry about it because over a million dollars doesn’t care where it came from.
From my readings Travelers was not involved and if I read you correctly it may be the HOA itself is going to pay out… that’ll teach them to be careful who they charge with a NW, if they ever have one again after this fiasco, and I bet they are ruing the day they allowed GZ to set one up! Only bad I am not sure it will be as much as the $1m as you are.
@gbrbsb,
They have to have an HOA. They just need smarter, harder working Directors. OK, I’m prejudiced – why don’t they get some black guys and gals on the Board? There, I said it, and I’m glad.
@gbrbsb –
Ooops, I get it … it’s if the HOA ever has a NW program again.
My goof! Sending abject apologies.
(Still like the idea of changing the complexion of the HOA Board, though.)
No worry, I’m not the best or shortest at explaining myself 😉
@GBRBSB
Female dyslexics are unusual. I’m one, too (especially when fatigued). Are we twins, separated at birth?
Were you born in London too? 😉
I didn’t know females were rare. I am affected in orientation and numbers which I jumble up. I’m not a good speller but not in a dyslexic way, and it’s only in English because with Spanish, my second language, I spell perfectly… that’s the advantage of having a single sound per letter (very few easily learned exceptions) so it spells as it sounds!
@gbrbsb
How uncanny to have a second language work for you like that! A blessing! My dyslexia is very limited: in printing I replace capital “L” with a 7, and vice versa, indiscriminately. (I don’t use the Euro crossbar on the 7.) This was discovered when I was a young airline agent (now you know why all that baggage ended up in Jo’berg.) Mum lived in London, yes, but I was delivered (a month-early surprise) in Toronto when they were passing through. Union Jack on the hospital was all they cared about. Dyslexia has served me well as an investigative reporter and when I was negotiating contracts. I read almost as well upside down as I do straight on. People would have documents and contracts on their desks, be chatting with me on the other side, assuming I couldn’t see what was there. I often explain dyslexia by handing somebody a cup, asking, “What’s that?” They say, (probably thinking “duhhhh”) “A cup,” Then I take it back, turn it over and place it in their hand again. “What’s that?” Mystified, they say again, “A cup.” I say “Fine, that’s how I see letters and words. They’re all the same at any angle.” Upside down, I make d’s and b’s make sense inside the word, same for p and q. The brain is an amazing adapter!
In cursive, I write in chancery (italics) with a quill pen. Lower case V and lower case R are identical. They look at it, and think I must be a Carthusian monk in drag. Who would hassle a 600-year old religious with such beautiful handwriting? I can send a congratulatory note to a gentleman, who likely wonders, “What the H is a ‘lorev’?” It’s all part of the mystery.
Pero poco a poco, se va lejos.
May we all be blessed with many lorevs. Especially farovite ones!
Love the cup explanation to be sure I’ll be filing that for future use!
My worst manifestation, left and right. I couldn’t tell you my left from my right not even to save my life. I need several minutes to concentrate repeating the rote, “I write with my right hand” while lifting, clasping or shaking etc. my writing hand to ensure I have it right.
I passed my driving test with a large L and R felt tipped on the skin between my thumbs and forefinger which I could see perfectly with my hands on the wheel. Admitted the examiner looked somewhat aghast but he accepted the highway code was silent about a driver having to know them so it was deemed legal and I passed with flying colours. Only problem I have is receiving or giving directions which I get around by using “my side”, “your side”, and I just drive on if I am not clear.
Sí, pasito a pasito se va lejos! 🙂
@gbrbsb,
I have had the same hesitancy re right and left but over the years compensated by instinctively moving my right arm (my writing arm), which tells me where “right” is. I expect it’s imperceptible to those I’m speaking with. It’s now ingrained. As I said earlier, the brain is marvelous at adapting. Port and starboard are a bit more work …
You would like living in Hawaii. Cardinal points of the compass are not used. “To the mountains” and “to the sea” are directions: mauka and makai. You’d like that.
That’s the place for me… sea, sand, palms and warm nights and no left or right. oh how i wish i could!
PirhanaMom- moving between languages, I learned that your left hand makes the letter L, like folks do for “Loser.” That is how I remember.
Sent from my iPod
cielo says
that works for you and me, sweetpea, but is of little benefit to a dyslexic or for my daughter whose learning disability (mixed dominance) presents in a similar manner. the problem is that both the ‘L’ and a backwards ‘˩’ can look identical to them.
i have helped my daughter struggle with this for years and will likely do so for many more.
@Xena,
” because over a million dollars doesn’t care where it came from.”
Yeah, Baby, yeah … you couldn’t be any correcter!
(Note to pal Uni: that’s a colloquialism. Also Xena is an adult. I know that.. She is not my infant. And yes, the million $$$ doesn’t really have an emotional life. But hey …. I’m cool with all that. OK, pal?) (What???? You’re not my pal? I’m crushed. Well, you know, crushed, but not like pineapple – OK?)
PirhanaMom- LOL! Crushed but not like in pineapple!
Sent from my iPod
If the killer is convicted and Trayvon’s family wins a wrongful death suit against him would Shellie, with her husband in prison for the rest of his potential working life, be legally responsible for paying whatever damages might be awarded to the plaintiffs? She’s young and a debt load like that would probably leave her impoverished (and essentially unmarriageable) for the rest of her life.
If so, good reason to bail out now.
I was thinking the same thing. If there was EVER a good time for her to spill whatever she knows, in the hope of a deal, and serve fogen with divorce papers, it would be now. Crump has made it very clear that fogen is on his list. IMO – serving him with divorce papers before he is served with a lawsuit may be her only option to even have a chance at some kind of *normal* life.
If I was fogen, I would tell her to do so. But, in order to do that, he’d have to put someone else’s wellbeing and happiness ahead of his own and I don’t believe he’s capable of it.
“If I was fogen, I would tell her to do so. But, in order to do that, he’d have to put someone else’s wellbeing and happiness ahead of his own and I don’t believe he’s capable of it.”
I’d be very surprised if he were capable of that either, judging from the way he manipulates her on the jailhouse calls and also disparages her to his sister, not trusting her to get the financial transactions right.
Dave- I doubt she would be financially responsible for her husbands judgement fines. The rest,though, I say GOOD! She supported a murderer; her consequences should also be severe.
Sent from my iPod
pure speculation follows…..the defense has seen/heard the enhanced versions of the 911 calls and they KNOW the interrogation being done by fogen is on tape, they know it is clear from that tape the martin was pleading for his life and there was NO FIGHT of any type taking place.
when I hear a child belt out a prolonged, “get offfffffffffffffffffffff”
I know that child is not fighting
I tend to see a kid struggling to break free from a grasp OR pushing up off the ground. In today’s parlance “Get off” may be to the effect “leave me alone” (get off my case) or “go away, what did I do to you” more “back off”
No matter, Fogen committed several crimes that night and he’s done.
the prolonged yell makes me think he is stationary, there is not staccato in the prolonged “offff”, an I don’t think he is stationary on purpose. imo he is being restrained.
It makes me shudder thinking about it. Fogen deserves everything he gets and every name called.
as I hear the screams, I ponder that this kid still at this point does not know what the fuck is going on or why this is happening to him on a rainy day walking home and talking to his girlfriend
Bill, I’m not sure the word “pure” applies…..I’m not sure “speculation” applies either. I’d say with a high probability that the enhanced calls and, well everything shows your thoughts to be accurate.
I was never able to pick up anything other than the screaming, but the other day somebody suggested another voice saying help me once, so I decided to listen again. I didn’t hear what was suggested, but I heard another voice saying something at 36 sec in the axiom w11 audio. I even think I can hear what that second person is saying. I don’t want to say what I am hearing, because I don’t want to influence anybody.
i thought from the reaction of the one witness that had been outside but cam in to call 911 to the firing of the shot was very telling…..he reacted in disbelief as in NO he didnt shoot that kid……he KNEW when he heard the shot it was murder.
gotta link or audio number (there’s many on there)
I find it difficult to speculate about w6. I would like to know, who talked to whom immediately after the incident.
It is fascinating to listen to the witnesses again. When we first listened to them we didn’t know anything about them. We didn’t know which house they were living in, the floorplan of their house, the exact timeline etc.
Now I know who looked when and from what vantage point.
I thought w1 was kind of loopy, because she described the body position different fro other witnesses. When I went back to listen to her, I realized she was looking outside at the same time as Selma and Mary, just seconds after the shot was fired.
But w1 said she only saw the body, while Selma and Mary said they saw GZ on top of Trayvon.
But then I noticed, she described the body as wearing black sneakers and a reddish coloured top. The body she saw was not flat on the ground. What she was describing was not Trayvon’s body, but GZ on top of Trayvon.
I think Austin, the boy with the dog, also just saw the person on top instead of just one person.
W12, W1 and W19 were all looking outside at the same time as John. John only looked outside for a very brief time. He said that at first he could only see one person. He didn’t noticed the person on the bottom at first. He couldn’t tell if the person on top was wearing something on his head. He said he assumed they were both men, but he could not tell by sight whether they were male or female. If it is that dark, you cannot distinguish colour.
His statements are at odds with reality and with other witnesses. But they have a striking similarity with GZ.
@Tzar
Here is the Link
@Tzar
The link doesn’t work. It is in the audio files for W11.
There is something wrong with GZ’s phone call on the scene. On several occasions he has given what was supposed to be a minute-by-minute account of that time and always he skipped that call. Apparently it was specifically not Shellie. Had it been a call for help to daddy or anything like that then there wouldn’t be any need to keep it secret. I suspect the answer will be interesting.
@pyorck
Yes, I can’t wait to find out. It is not
John. He was on the phone with 911. My money is on Osterman.
thank you
be back
@tzar
Maybe easier. It is at 36 sec of this video.
The gun had to be out at the start of that call, Trayvon says, “I’m begging you” right at the beginning quickly followed by “get off”
@amsterdam: @ 36 I hear (and have heard since I first listened) George say “keep still” or “keep him still”, followed by Trayvon saying “help” one last time before he is shot.
@tzar
I hear “shut the fuck” and then w11 starts talking again. That is GZ, I recognize it.
@ amsterdam, you hear that at 36?
@Tzar
Yes, at 36.
@Bill Taylor
IMO, it’s not speculation but reasonable belief. Along with the enhanced 911 call providing GZ’s voice cursing Trayvon while Trayvon is screaming in pain and fear, GZ’s phone records including texts; GPS from both Trayvon’s and GZ’s phone; the lack of evidence that Trayvon had propensity to violence; no DNA foreign to Trayvon on his hands; clubhouse video analysis providing GZ’s driving movements following Trayvon.
Speculation: A possible photo of GZ in his truck, menacing Trayvon. Photo analysis of the blood trails on GZ’s head.
Zena does the defense have that information or BDLR doesn’t have to turn that over to them.And congratulations to Trayvon’s parents.To think it wasn’t long ago that Trayvon was visiting his brother on his college campus.I don’t think it is about the money it’s more about a small pitance for an unforgivable wrong.
@Pat Deadder .
Whatever discovery evidence the State has, has been turned over to the defense. As BDLR said in court, the State is not obligated to connect the dots for the defense. The defense needs to hire its own experts to analyze the video tapes, GPS, etc.
You know how Fogen has that creepy whispery rapist voice?
I can hear that similar voice on the 911 scream tape but cant make out what the Fogen says to the kid
It surely did not sound like Trayvon was fighting, only screaming and pleading for help in desperation and yelling “get off”
I bet many associations will pay a little more attention to their own neighborhood watches from now on. And that is a good thing.
Ya think? Also, owners may pay more attention to who they elect to serve on decision-making boards.
@TrainedObserve -r
@PYorck –
The insurance companies, are, especially, alerting HOAs to their responsibilities.
It would be even nicer if those members of the HOA would tell the truth, about what went on the night Fogen murdered a child. some of those members were present and, they have to know that some people have figured it all out and that they know more than they are telling.
Fogen has brought a lot of grief into the lives of a lot of people and yet, he has a group of people who are just like him supporting him. if these people who are keeping their little secret would just do the right thing and tell what they know, then maybe this case can be a normal murder case and trial like all others in this country.
These people can send the ones who have been dog whistled out of their racist dens back to where they came from. they know exactly what went down and, how it went down that night because, they were there and saw it all.
There are things that happened in this case that are so dirty and disgusting that even the prosecution does not want them aired. Certainly the quick settlement and “no talk” agreement with the HOA is an indication of that. And we have NOT seen Twittermania and Taaffeahrria from the real homeowners over there, have we?
Lonnie has been speaking about various theories (some of which I cannot fix my mind to see) for quite a while, but I think the one that struck me in about the middle of 2012 is the one I still feel has the most explanatory power. Fogen couldn’t even pay his rent, was flunking out of school, and was on the outs with his family. He wanted to be “the paid and highly respected armed guard of the endangered RTL community” and he set up a “good catch” for himself, right before March rent was due, so he could prove that
(a) He really needed to do armed patrols in the neighborhood in spite of many complaints and much opposition to that; and that
(b) he should be officially retained by the RTL community to be their private cop. He flubbed even that; he’s a notorious failure. But then he thought at LEAST he would get away with it and go somewhere else to do something else that would give him his jollies, but darn if the Bpa-lack Mob didn’t foil his plans by railroading him even though he was fulfilling God’s Plan.
Before he began “guarding” that community, they were safe and it was a pretty good place to live. He really drove THEIR property value down in a hurry!
I think you credit Z. with more intelligence and better planning than he deserves. It’s true that his life was spinning out of control–why I can only speculate. And he was a part of the riff-raff within a somewhat well-to-do (or wannabe) community. His inclination was to suck up. And suck up he did.
He may have hoped to act our his law-enforcement fantasies, or somehow compensate for his failing grades in the education program that was needed to get him into a field that he dreamed of. But I think realistically he had just found a small enough pond to look like a big frog.
He may have dreamed of making a big catch and looking really good. But I don’t hink he had it in him to do any planning ahead of time. I think he just spotted a potential catch and got ticked off when the kid didn’t hold still for him, or the po-po didn’t show quickly enough. He may have tackled him, grabbed him and pulled the gun. I think his thought processes had stopped by then. He was just caught up in his fantasy and pulled the trigger.
I go for the big frog theory. Patrolling gave him something to live for. He was a security rock star in his coupla brain cells.
In his copula brain cells, LMAO!
@Two sides
LOL!
Well, three mebbe.
Then the HOA CERTAINLY deserves to be sued. Why should they let someone who rents and is BEHIND in their rent prowl around they way he was?
@Rachael
What I have been reading is that if the owner/landloard was in foreclosure and could not collect the rent, the HOA could step in and collect the rent until it was brought current. Oh here is what I found
The 2010 changes to the homeowners and condominium association acts allow the association to demand rent from the tenant when an owner is delinquent. The association can foreclose against the unit and evict a tenant that refuses to pay the rent.
And here is some info re NW and Liability Issues
http://www.floridacondohoalawblog.com/2012/12/articles/qa/liability-issues-may-complicate-neighborhood-watch-choices/
He actually fits the profile of a white supremacist quite nicely. Love the irony.
except for the *white* and the *supremacy* part!
lololo
Boy oh boy, the racist hornets nest over at HP is really upset about this. when the Goldman family sued OJ for the very same thing, WRONGFUL DEATH, you never heard a peep out of anybody IIRC. these bigoted racist idiots are too much to stomach. they are acting as if Trayvon’s family was all about money from the beginning and, they should be ashamed of themselves for saying such but, they have no shame like they have no morals.
The HOA is just as responsible for what Fogen did as the SPD because, other people in that complex had complained about him and, nothing was ever done about him on either front. hopefully they will sue the city of Sanford as well. there is no need for these bigots to be angry a this family because, anyone of them would have done the same thing and they know it.
If they want to be angry at anybody, then they should be angry at the one who brought this all about. he is even responsible for bringing them from their respective trailer parks to show the world just how *IGNORANT* racist people can be here in THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
I know. They HAVE been upset about it from day one, but wouldn’t anyone else have done the same? I mean it doesn’t bring back your child, but ANYONE – including ANY ONE OF THEM would have done the EXACT SAME THING and if anyone is such a ******** that they think any parent would trade their child for any amount of money, they are indeed a ********. As a parent, I KNOW they would give the money back in a heartbeat if they could have their precious Trayvon back instead.
They all would have done the exact same thing.
Yet who in their right minds puts up a BEGGING site on the internet?
They are disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. They are, as you say *IGNORANT* racists and they are lower than a snake’s belly.
WTF IS WRONG WITH THEM?
Bunch of racist hypocrites.
I so agree with you Rachael and, GOD only knows what is wrong with these people and how they can harden their hearts in this manner. like you said, this is not going to bring their child back nor is it going to replace him. I know these parents like any other parents would give all they have, if they could just have their child back. BTW, I hope you are feeling better today.
The reality is that there are very limited remedies in the law. The law can punish through removal of freedom, or the law can levy financial fines.
To a family that has lost a child, neither can be satisfying. Yet, this is all that our imperfect system of human justice can offer.
Lurker- even as limited as it is, I’d take it over sharia law ANY DAY!
Sent from my iPod
@ladystclaire
Thank you, I am feeling better. I still have a cold, but that horrible migraine is gone. I only get them like once or twice a year, but they are incapacitating.
You know, I bet they would give it all back for even just 5 more minutes – just 5 minutes to hold him in their arms and tell him how much they love him.
Nothing can right that wrong, but maybe now it will be harder for a resident renter who walks around with a gun get to be a NW for a HOA and maybe even though it costs a little more money, they will keep their cameras and lights in working order. I don’t know the parents of Trayvon, but I’m sure they cannot be that much different from me in that even if something isn’t going to bring back their son, they sure as hell don’t want the same happening to someone else’s.
they have been spitting that disgusting filth about Sybrina and Tracy being money grubbing from the git.
those people are sick twisted hateful vile liars! they know NO amount of money could lessen the misery these normal parents are going though and will continue to go through for the rest of their lives!
and yet they try to demean these particular parents for fighting for their child, doing anything they can do to make sure everyone who is responsible for their child’s death is held accountable!
( way better than I could!! they’re doing it within the limits of the law!! with dignity and gracefulness!!!!)
why are these particular parents *money grubbing*?
yeah we know why, but it’s so hard to accept they really think this way! but they bitch and moan and show themselves as the scum of the earth; which may or may not have been known to their close friends and family before this case, but this isn’t about race, it’s about a stolen life! a life that MATTERED A LOT!!
BTW: the people around these people are now on notice about who they are dealing with, they better keep their distance.
the things I’ve seen written about Trayvon’s family have shocked me and keep shocking me after all this time! it makes my blood burn! it’s so upsetting viscerally to read it…it’s so not natural for humans to think that way!
frankly who cares what they think, they can’t kill this buzz
Actually, the more they try, the better it is LOL
yyyiiiiiiiiup!
Not to mention this settlement is a portend of things to come, but we all knew that last year.
yup
Yes but Fogen’s suing of NBC for using words and sentences Fogen uttered, has no agenda of money because only the Trayvon family are after money according to their logic
They are the same idiots that harass every East Indian or Arabic person, if one muslim person does something wrong or blaming all Chinese for stealing their jobs
They are simply bitter people
May God Have Mercy On Their Souls, the ones who have hate in their minds and heart
Not to forget about how they bitch about other Hispanics coming here taking their jobs also but, this Hispanic here they kiss his fat rump and, worship the ground he walks on all because he murdered an AA kid.
They worship him so much to the point that, they paid off all of his debt by sending donations for his defense fund. the thing about that is, he hadn’t even been arrested and charged with anything, in order to need a defense or a defense fund. Fogen played these idiots like a bad violin and, they just LOVE him for it.
Yes. May all beings be free of suffering.
I suspect there were other factors than just the defendant, e.g. lack of lighting in the public areas, breaks in the walls so the “gated” designation wasn’t accurate, non-working security cameras, inaction on the complaints against the defendant.
That is very very true. Which is a reason to sue – just as ANY parent would, including RACIST parents who would have done the EXACT SAME THING!
And a NW captain who knew, before getting out of his car, that the cameras were not working. Got that on the first interview tape.
If he did leave his complex and returned, he knew no one would ever be the wiser. No way Dee Dee could possibly know about Colonial and mail kiosk, except from Trayvon himself, wasn’t in discovery until the defense itself, forced it into the open last week.
I think something has just been discovered that none of us knows anything about. Just a hunch. Even some of the strongest GZ supporters are about to switch camps. I can’t shake this feeling. Something undeniable.
This settlement seemed to have come out of the blue (before trial) for a reason.
I really hope so
but I think I read that the settlement happened months ago
I wonder what effect this will have on donations to the defense fund…
Perhaps ramp it up – the more rabid supporters will downplay the importance of it – just more injustice toward Fogen, greed by Crump, ad nauseum.
Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt, ya know!
Music to Crump’s ears
There are hardly any and haven’t been for some time now. Even the most ardent Zidiot can see where this is going.
Well, 30k a month ain’t insignificant . . . that’s a lot of water down de Nile!
They can say 30K a month…..I have my source and trust me…they’re lying. They’re lying so the ardent Zidiots think he’s still got a chance….the “…Go with a Winner” ploy.
Heh heh. Not like they’ve never lied before . . .
Two sides- from a recent forage over there, they are as clueless as ever. The current thought is that this writ sent to appeals level will be “huge. Monumental.” I tend to think our professor is a little more knowledgable. It will be denied. Again.
Sent from my iPod
Should be interesting to see. I didn’t think the appellate court would kick Judge Lester off the case. But I don’t think it will help the defense much anyway if the motion is approved and Crump is deposed.
He has virtually 0% chance of having his Motion granted. His Appeal leaves many thing out. It’s a “Wish List” at best.
@ Racerrodig. I agree with you about donations continually coming in. I don’t believe gz is getting what he claims is coming in on the fund. Just a ploy to get more $$$. These people cannot be that stupid. BTW I am so elated about the victory. I have not felt this good since Trayvon was murdered. God is good. Now his lawsuit against NBC, if by chance he wins, I hope that the Martin family sues him and gets every dime. In other words, it’s not looking too good for gz right about now. Like you say, it must suck to be Fogen.
Yep !! This is just the beginning of the end for him.
My dad always said “Don’t play with guns” “Any civilian who leaves the house with a gun is LOOKING for trouble” and “…check you guns at the door………….on the way out” This from a cop.
As we all know Fogen wasn’t raised right. Yep. must suck to be Fogen
I hope someone is keeping close tabs on that money. Wouldn’t that be something if some of that money was available when the civil case is won.
@ Soulcatcher. The Martin family have an attorney, and a good one. I am sure someone is keeping tabs on the blood money.
Professor, do you think this will help the state’s case? I hope it sends a message that Fogen was in the wrong, otherwise the HOA would fight it or do like NBC and wait until the verdict.
The settlement is not admissible, but it does signal that the HOA and its insurance company have no confidence in the defendant’s self-defense claim.
That fact, plus the waiver of the immunity hearing stongly suggests what I have believed all along. The defendant has no defense.
The withdrawal of the immunity hearing pre-trial wouldn’t help the HOA’s need to drag this on any further presumably.
They will be watching this case unfold with interest, now that immunity pre-trial is off the table.
What does this mean, if anything, for NBC?
The NBC lawsuit was worthless when it was filed.
thanks, just a chance of a quick buck for the defense that won’t happen, and some sympathy media coverage at best.
JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON!!!! HALLELUJAH AND AMEN!!!!!!!!!
So another Zidiot Nation Guarantee gets shot to hell. Remember that “The civil lawsuit will be dismissed and Fogen will win all of his civil lawsuits and live the good life” guarantee.
Damn and double damn……..must really suck to be Fogen knowing he’s looking at a long prison term and civil lawsuits. Needless to say his NBC suit will be dismissed on a Motion.
Yep…….sucks to be Fogen, past, present & future !!!
Maybe Taaffe can give us his take on this victory, being he lives there and all !!!
Yeah it would not stick
It is the same as their 30 DD’s by Oprah guarantee
or the He’s 100% white now Afro-Peruvian guarantee
What’s “30 DD’s by Oprah”?
Curious minds want to know.
There’s allegedly 30 different DD’s all orchestrated by Oprah
Ask Junior, he knows LOL
I still laugh my butt off when I look at the early days of this and think about ………
The No Arrest Guarantee
The Diaper Defense
The Pit Bull Defense
The Octopus Defense
The It’s a Token Arrest
The Bail will be $0.00
The State has no case
Corey will be fired, and charged with felonious malicious prosecution
BDLR will be fired
Serino was demoted because he wanted to charge FogenPhoole
He’ll sue the State and be rolling in money
He’ll sue Trayvon’s parents for Trayvon’s vicious attack
He’ll win his NBC suit for 5 million
Yada, Yada, BS Yada……….where are those fun loving Zidiots now??
Ah- the moldy oldies! Still good for a laugh!
Sent from my iPod
Go look over at the Treestump. They’re pitching a hissy.
Their defenses have all been hilariously stupid
The fatso weight gain defense
The black guys are all suspicious defense
The useless brother defense
The hide the passport and money by structuring defense
The staging of superficial scratches defense
The gun was not mine defense
The gun was not there defense
The DD, Crump, Corey, Jesse Jackson, Lester, Nelson are big bad wolves defense
The 45 DD defense
The Junior We Are Not Racist Tour defense
The we are white but now we are afro peruvian defense
The Trayvon has no injuries defense
The Fogen was the only person with injuries defense
ADHD defense
The 200 black people friend army defense
The rent a black friend Joe Oliver defense
The Sean Hannity defense
The CCW I have defense
The Affidavit is not 100% defense
The Governor Rick Scott is an asshole defense
The Mayor Triplette is a race traitor defense
The Conservative Tinfoil Defense
The fake twitter defense
The following but not stalking defense
The skipping not scared teenage thug defense
The flip the bird picture defense
The absolute 100% Fogen defense
The T to truck defense
The threaten witness6 to lie for Fogen defense
The damn liberal media defense
The hospital records defense
The depose Crump defense
I could come up with these all day and crack up laughing LOL
@Two sides
The ignoramus over there is too much to handle. Get this. Some think this settlement must be part of an agreement to make this case go away. I kid you not.
Every one of them need to locked up and heavily medicated before they hurt themselves.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2013/04/05/state-vs-george-zimmerman/#comment-363412
SG2 says
what she said!!! i do not normally seek out folks like that because it just hurts my head, heart and soul. i did take a glance today though and it confirms your opinion.
@SG2. SMH. They think like bullies involved in family court cases. Their methods of causing emotional distress and defamation to prevent consequences of their wrongdoing only works in their limited little worlds with people who know and are afraid of them.
Dare I say, but what planet is that shithead broadcasting from….
Just goes to show how stupid Zidiots are. GZ is the only person awaiting trial for 2nd degree murder in this case. The HOA cannot negotiate on his behalf to make the case go away.
The only thing that is going to make GZ’s case go away is if he pleas guilty and bargains for a sentence less than life without parole.
My head won’t stop shaking from that one….Hooo Man.
Your guess is as good as mine. It’s sheer ignorance on display and they’re too ignorant to know they’re ignorant.
Dunning-Kruger.
Sent from my iPod
You know what is funny
It is really satisfying to see a bully get his/her medicine
Like Fogen for example, he’s been pushing people around all his life, and now he is a cowering wimp in front of the police and the feds, with his nonsense
“Get this. Some think this settlement must be part of an agreement to make this case go away. I kid you not.”
!!!
You can’t fix stupid.
LOLOLOL, ,S. Girl. Some at the Tree Stump now think Fogen should sue the HOA!!
Oh my gosh . . .
@Two sides
bwa ha ha ha ha ha…I saw that. Too funny!
@SG2
thanks for the comedy
that is one elaborate fairy tale
LOL @raceroddig
The ‘He’ll walk at immunity guaranteed,’ ‘there’ll be no trial,’ and ‘he’ll have 500,000 from NBC before June.’ Wait, ‘He’ll own Florida. The whole state.’ LOL.
Oh he’ll walk alright —> Clink Clang —> that’s the sound of the men walking on the gang, chain… Gang!!! LoL
Yep. Must suck to be Fogen about now….what with him reading what we say and all.
He can’t help reading, it’s like trying to turn away from watching a train wreck. What are the chances he’ll struggle in the court after the verdict is read?
I’ll venture a guess he won’t even look at the jurors and put up a struggle, maybe a slight one, but I’ll bet he’s so outnumbered he’ll know it’s Game Over.
Then again he may lash out and wind up with that 50,000 volt pole to the ribs.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzaaaaaaapppppppp…..
Yeah, by time he’s been tried he’ll probably be to subdued to put on a show of his cowardly nature.
Funny he thought that, in a state where armed people are as common as rain, that a frightened, unarmed teen, would brazenly challenge a big, angry adult stranger riding in a truck.
Another reason that he might have left Oregon avenue as soon as he could. On his way to the store, it still light out, but he says to DD that he wished his mother was there. That tells me that he was somehow troubled by this trip he was making. It was not an enjoyable experience or, he’d be very unlikely to think of having his mother there with him. I’m sure most teens love their mothers, but it’s very unlikely that they’re going to think of their parents when they’re having fun. So, I kind of think that Trayvon had a sense of foreboding about these guys he was meeting at the store. Otherwise, what else could it be? It certainly wasn’t the store or the cashier that caused him any concern. The only thing that actually happens is this unexplained pause to wait patiently for these guys to complete their business, before he even starts back home.
Now look at it this way. Could have had a sense that they may have been following him? After all, they weren’t at the store when he met them, nor did they arrive until after he left the store. Is it possible that he picked up on them hiding their faces inside? So, maybe leaving Oregon Avenue early was just a way to ensure that he wasn’t being followed. The circuitous path through CV, would certainly lend comfort to someone who felt followed. The timeline doesn’t seem to say that he stopped there along the way, but that he went through there and kept on going.
If these guys did set up a meeting at the 711, then that implies they knew where Trayvon was staying. So, there was no need for them to follow him very closely, they could have simply gone into RATL and waited, out of sight, for him to arrive. That might very likely put them at the southern end of the dog walk when Trayvon comes running. Didn’t one of the witnesses say that someone came running north after the gunshot?
I counted Trayvon’s body being seen in no fewer than 6 different positions, including the hands under himself as the police found him.
Yet, no one testified to having seen Trayvon’s body being moved.
As I come across those positions I’m going to collect the testimony. Too bad I didn’t do it the first time through but it didn’t seem very significant then. Oh well.
One of the things that bothers me is who was running right after the shot?? One of his posse ?
@Racer –
Re: “One of the things that bothers me is who was running right after the shot?? One of his posse ?”
I missed the original reference, Racer. Can you clue me?
Thanks!
Seconds after the shot, several witnesses stated someone was running North away from the scene. Nobody knows who.
@Racer:
“Seconds after the shot, several witnesses stated someone was running North away from the scene. Nobody knows who.”
Guy in white shirt?
Possibly but as I recall, there may be another besides “White Shirt”
That’s what I’d like to know. The witness says that right after the shot was fired someone came running south to north. While at the very same time on the cctv’s a vehicle came shooting north on TTL to the front gate, apparently hightailing it out of the complex. I guess we’ll have to wait for the trial to learn who these people were if they know.
Since the State and the Feds know who, I’ll exercise patience and wait. I have my guess’s so, we’ll wait until trial.
What is it………61 1/2 days now on that III=> Tick – Tock <=III
O' Meter??
“The witness says that right after the shot was fired someone came running south to north. ”
Which witness?
unitron
@Lonnie,
“Yeah, by time he’s been tried he’ll probably be to subdued to put on a show of his cowardly nature.”
If this case goes to trial (and with the HOA settlement, by “the folks who know him most,” I can now see a plea coming) GZ will have only one reaction: self pity.
No words, just sobs.
I can see it coming………………It wasn’t my fault.
@Crane –
” … he’ll turn White after the trial’s over”
(when he meets his Aryan Brotherhood cell-mate).
SouthernGirl, heavily medicated got me laughing so hard I have “acute abdomen” pains! You meanie!
Look at this one: “all evidence supports what happened that night.”
Yep, in fact, that is true: “All evidence supports what happened that night.” And THAT is what’s wrong with the defense’s case.
@ racer
LOL! Wouldn’t that be enlightening (or something)!
You’d have to tear him away from watching his favorite movie,
Children of the Corn.
@Soulcatcher–that’s too good!
Taaffe’s take on this would be nothing short of “Priceless” what with his short term vision and all.
@Soulcatcher, he’s out planting corn so he can get corn because, he may just be looking to lawyer up himself and, after all even a bigot has to eat. so, plant that corn Frank because, all lawyers don’t work pro bono and, you are in this up to your gray head.
Did Fogen murder Trayvon on a dare from you and a few others or, even though he pulled the trigger, he was not alone in this and is too big of a coward (which we know he is) to spill his fat guts and start naming names. who is really making threats against him because, it’s certainly not anybody in the AA race. all they ever wanted was an arrest and, that they got. so, why would anyone of them be making threats on his worthless life?
You know the old saying, keep your enemies close and your friends even closer. is this why Osterman kept him so close to him for 44 days or so after the fact, to keep him from talking to certain people or to make sure he didn’t let something slip?
Look like anyone you’ve seen before, maybe a year ago, goatee and shaved head?
Yeah….that stupid goatee.
Racer- somehow I don’t think GZ will be happy to see those young men in their clean uniforms coming to take him away! Haha!
Sent from my iPod
😀
…Or Something, that’s for sure
HA!!! Even NBC has put that clown on hold and that case is likely to be dismissed.
How many ways can we say “Toxic GZ”?
hahah francy taffee! yeah I’m sure him and jr are having a fit at the bar! expect more drunkin twitter rants around closing time!!LOL
how’s that VICTORY workin for them now! lol they belong together!
What a pair they are…imagine them together on a talk show…..then throw Oliver in !!
I hear a train a comin’
It’s comin’ round the bend . . .
Haven’t had to time to do a rewrite for awhile, so Fogen, this ones for you’re latest loss.
We hear the train a comin’
It’s rolling round the bend
He won’t be seein’ the sunshine since we don’t know when,
We call it Fogen’s prison, and time keeps draggin’ on
But that train keeps a rollin’ on down to Sanford town.
When he was just a baby his mama told him son,
Always be a good boy, don’t ever play with guns.
But he shot a child in Sanford and he watched him die
When you hear that whistle blowing,
You should hang my head and cry..
Soooey!
I bet there’s rich folks eating in a fancy dining car
They’re probably drinkin’ coffee and smoking big cigars.
Well we know he had it coming, we know he can’t be free
But those people keep a movin’
And that’s what tortures thee..
Well if they freed him from that prison,
If that railroad train was mine
I bet I’d move it on a little farther down the line
We call it Fogen’s prison, that’s where he’ll have to stay
And I’d let that lonesome whistle won’t blow his blues away…..
ha ha ha
choo choo motherf../shut your mouth!!!
Well done, racer!
I do my best …..Whooooooo……Whoooooo !!
The Long Road
Beautiful, and with it’s own sadness and underlying tragidy associated with the crew who filmed this.
That zimmerman Mirror Syndrome that plagues this case tells me that GZ’s parents will try to find a way to sue Sybrina and Tracy in order to put their hands on money. Is such a thing allowed?
Nope…in short.
They can try but they would not succeed in court because it is obvious that Fogen created the situation
I mean…I could always use a laugh
Civil suits need preponderance and he cant even come up with that for SYG so…
So you’re saying The Martins / Fultons preponderance trumps anything in the preponderance dept Fogen has….or doesn’t have, er, lacks evidence of……you know what I mean. Seems to me that as this settlement will overpower anything Fogen can produce as you cannot have 2 winners in a civil suit being there is something called “The Entire Controversy Doctrine”
I do not feel Fogen even has 10% of a preponderance LMAO
Aye, Colin.
No amount of money can composate Trayvons loss of life or the fear an pain he suffered at the hands of his Murderer.
Trayvon parents would pay every penny they received plus intrest to hold there son in there arms again.
It does indicate wich way the wind is blowing.
And a tornado of fury an righous anger in the shape of the might of the legal system an those whom impliment it is heading foggagges way.
Also sucking up his supporters family an defenders into the swirling vortex of its funnel of fury.
that sounds about right to me colin.
I just wish those supporters could be sucked in a little harder and a little more furiously! but this is a step in the right direction…
CONGRATULATIONS, MR. CRUMP and all those who fought so hard with him!!
Fogen should sue the property management company for NOT having the working CCTV’s on that night, since he claims that if there was a video of what happened, it would prove his claim of self-defense. Oh dear oh dear oh dear…
Right. 🙄
They’ll probably file that one in mid-to-late May. (And serve a complimentary copy on Rene and the OS, of course!)
Hahahaha. You’ve added something to his loonnngggg list of blame its.
Blame – ish?
Malisha- yes, and he says it in that soft voice that means he knows he’s lying.
Sent from my iPod
One down and many more hurdles, but in the end, Trayvon Martin will prevail. That young boy had greatness in front of him. George Zimmerman being a product of Satan decided to end his life. Congrats to his parents, stay strong, the best is yet to come.
A well deserved win in the pursuit of justice for Trayvon. The only thing I hate, that they routinely put into settlements, is the removing the admittance of responsibility. They shoulder a huge part of the responsibility in the unleashing of fogen on that community and in the death of TM.
That’s common.
The guilty — in the rare instances when they have to pay — always get a token “disavowance of responsibility” to hang on their shameful walls. Maybe they’ll frame it. “We were not really responsible for the death of Trayvon Martin.” Right.
Rings hollow, doesn’t it?
Great news!!!
Now will the insurance company go after Fogen for reimbursement?
Fogen was only a renter, most likely it seems to me, it will go after the owner of the unit.
@Towerflower:
Fogen owed rent money and was in arrears! He and his lazy ASS doormat wife couldn’t hold down a job, nor could they sustain their own household! Fogen was running around trying to be a NWM and did didn’t own a pot to piss in! His daddy was paying the rent for him and Shellie. WTF? Why bother to get married anyway when the both of you need someone else to support you? Every time I read that Shellie wanted to be a Nurse I burst out laughing!
deborah says
me too, deborah, probably because my mother was an RN and i know damn well that shellie’s little online classes were a long way from being one. she could have said “i want to be a princess when i grow up” just as easily.
@Fauxmccoy:
Oh I didn’t know that! That is wonderful to hear! My mom was a RN too and so was one of her sisters and i followed in their footsteps! I don’t understand these two! Even when you listen to their conversations, they sound and speak like something straight out of a cartoon! They lived in their own little world where neither had to pull their own weight because their parents paid their way.When Fogen hid out at the Ostermans, once again, they were free loading off of someone else, not paying a thing for room, board, food etc,. SMH and guess what? When Fogen is convicted, the citizens of Florida will be paying for the next 35 years to house Fogen in the State Pen!
yup Deborah – my mother got her RN at Jackson Memorial in Miami in 1958, her sister got hers 6 years later at Grady in Atlanta. although i knew at a young age that i did not want to be a nurse when i grew up, i honor those that do. i have seen the long hours, heart breaking work, and pay that comes nowhere close to being fair compensation up close and personal.
thank you for the work that you do. nurses have been darn good to me throughout my life.
Yes, the insurance company can go after Fogen, because the insurance company is responsible for negligence in allowing Fogen to be NW after repeated complaints and warnings of his behavior, and Fogen is responsible for them getting sued in the first place
@ Jun,
The liability insurance company is not “responsible for negligence in allowing Fogen to be NW.” It might be (and I would guess was, based on the size of the settlement) responsible for defending its insured and for paying damages caused by the insured’s negligence, depending on the terms of the policy.
Hope so.
There are still other defendants.
I can imagine Lee and the SPD, for example, because we all know that there were complaints from residents about Fogen BEFORE HE KILLED TRAYVON MARTIN…
@Malisha
That’s what I was thinking too. I would love to see the SPD held accountable for allowing Fogen to run around like the sheriff of RTL. Their job is to protect and serve the community and that includes ALL members of the community.
Not sure the insurance company would consider it a likely productive investment of resources, but you never know.
It’s a good guess the policy premiums will go up – if a renewal is even offered. The HOA might be looking for a new insurer – and good luck in that pursuit.
And the members of the HOA board on and before 2/26/2012 are probably not the most popular folks in the “retreat” right about now.
The killer’s toxicity just keeps hurting more and more people.
@ Groans, hell yeah!
the *unpopular* idiots at the housing project who allowed gz to run around and play cops and robbers, invited him to HOA meetings, drank coffee with him, and printed up those damning fliers, i’d like to see their asses exposed and in a sling next too!
I hope they pay somehow, some way, for their racist BS and negligence. especially if they were one of the 911 callers that night and LIED about what they heard, saw and knew!
Everyone should KNOW who they are!!
they need to be held accountable for their part.
they enabled the idiot to murder an innocent kid!!
THEY are the undesirables now! and they’ve earned their toxicity, thanks to their alliance with gz!
Wonderful news. I hope that this might empower some folks in the RTL to rethink the NW and HOA approaches. I don’t know if Brandy Green still lives there, but perhaps it would be time to start including folks like her in the governance. They have an opportunity to rescue some of their financial investment (home value) if they can manage to become an organization inclusive of aALL their neighbors.
Transformation time!
lurker, I seem to vaguely remember that she moved there since she felt it was more safe for Chad, but also that she moved out after the shooting. Had I been her, I guess I would have.
I encountered a special type prejudice against renters generally combined with ardent support of GZ the renter. I found it hard to wrap my head around that. But strictly I think that Brandy Green only rented the place, which may well have allowed her to move out more fast. It’s not too long that I either listened or a read an interview with her.
hurrah! for a step in the right direction, not that cash is any replacement for a child.
Yes, never any replacement, it’s not even about their financial gain to pay their legal bills, their needs during this past year and going forward, to help the handsome young man they have raised to a young adult who is a tribute to this mother and this father and is a reflection of what Trayvon would have been
This is about the penalty, the loss of finances, of the HOA, or anyone taking the law into their own hands, stomping around the neighborhood with a gun, and with the blessings of the HOA.
Despite the complaints filed against Zimmerpunbk by the residents.
@kllypyn
Someone is using your avatar on the OS and using all kinds of racial slurs. They did the same thing to me months ago and took my username as well. They are the lowest scum that ever breathed oxygen.
Oh damn, sorry to hear about yet another stolen identity/avatar. Snakes in the grass, the whole slithering lot of them. No standalone ability, talent, or merit whatsoever, so they resort to sleaze, trolling and identity theft. Pa-tooey.
Congrats Attorney Benjamin Crump and Natalie Jackson!
“If you hear the dogs, keep going.
If you see the torches in the woods, keep going.
If there’s shouting after you, keep going.
― Harriet Tubman
Beautiful quote. Inspiring.
I think that’s probably Parks & Crumps’ mission statement. Thank heavens!
And we’re off!! June can’t get here soon enough!!
This is a dose of reality for all of the right wing racist goofballs and their delusional theories that Trayvon was a thug who deserved to be murdered and Benjamin Crump masterminded a defense for Trayvon by creating a false Dee Dee.
Absolutely. The settlement may not prove Fogen’s criminality, but it speaks loud and clear!
Indeed!
@Professor. RIGHT ON!!!
We really could use your expertise against the GZ apologists here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/05/george-zimmerman-waives-stand-your-ground_n_2812347.html
Although I understand if you wish to steer clear of the crazies.
HP banned me years ago, so I cannot comment there. They will permit any number of people to pretend to be me, but will not allow me to appear as myself.
Therefore, I told them to go to Hell.
@ Professor, re:
And they’re on there way there … moving closer with each passing day!
Really sloppy reporting:
Or manipulative, you choose. Disinformation, unitron?
Besides, I was just overwhelmed by the site, since two video’s started automatically at the same time. I really hate this type of stuff. Took a while till I figured out that the second video clip automatically starting was lower on the same site. It couldn’t be manually stopped either. For whatever reason.
“Besides, I was just overwhelmed by the site, since two video’s started automatically at the same time. I really hate this type of stuff. Took a while till I figured out that the second video clip automatically starting was lower on the same site. It couldn’t be manually stopped either. For whatever reason.”
Firefox with the Flashblock plugin means videos only run if you start them yourself, and you can click the pause button anytime you want.
As for your problem of mistaking anything on HuffPo for journalism of any quality, you’re on your own with that one.
unitron
Professor — Is it out of the question for R@TL unit owners to file suit against the HOA or HOA board members as a group or individually for lack of judicious oversight in allowing an armed vigilante roam common grounds with their stamp of approval?
@Trained,
The owners of the condo units ARE the HOA, and they elected the HOA Board of Directors. Owners who would sue the HOA are, in effect, suing themselves.
Piranha, I understand that condo unit owners comprise the HOA, previously having been a trustee/owner for a Florida condo in a similar complex. Paying HOA assessments is not an option. It’s mandatory.
That’s as opposed to a neighborhood civic association where I actually live, where membership is voluntary
MY QUESTION REMAINS: Apart for the fact that any fool can sue anybody for anything … can a unit owner (or several owners) reasonably file suit against the HOA or HOA board members (as a group or individually) for lack of judicious oversight, putting owners/guests at risk of bodily harm, etc. etc.
Besides exposing one guest of a resident to attack and murder, actions of this board that cozied up to Fogen 1) greatly endangered people on property 2) pushed already depressed R@TL property values down ever further 3) put cash reserves in peril and 4) virtually guaranteed quarterly assessments will be notably higher from here on out to cover higher insurance premiums and beefed up security.
In addition, individual unit owners may be facing hikes in their own personal insurance premiums for interior spaces, etc.
@Trained Observer,
I hear ya’, TO. It depends on what protection exists in Florida state law re Common Interest Properties and their associations. My guess is that the insurance company that insures the management company might try to go after the HOA Directors. Evidently the Directors NOW have D&O insurance but got it from Travelers in March – so they must not have had ANY on 2/26/12 – and before, when they hyped their vigilante. (Gulp!) Maybe that $35,000 mentioned earlier.
But then … how to collect? These aren’t the deepest pockets, Most of the units are underwater. Unpaid assessments can become a lien on the properties, collected when the properties are sold OR the HOA can force a sale. But the mortgagers come first — maybe no cash left to satisfy the lien and pay out to the plaintiffs.
Can’t get blood out of a turnip.
We have not heard the last of this.
Good points, Piranha. Given the way they authorized and promoted Fogen in the newsletter, I’d suggest these board members mostly had turnips for brains.
JMO, but I think the settlement was pretty lame, considering the cause and manner in which Trayvon died.
Disagree
It’s at least $1 million and that’s not lame.
Nondisclosure agreements are SOP and it will not in any way prejudice the criminal prosecution or restrict Trayvon’s parents from suing GZ after he is convicted of murder.
I will take your trained word for it professor
I was also thinking that the amount seemed really low for life that was lost so unnecessarily and in a manner that the HOA should have seen coming and prevented
IMO it is a little low but at the same time, the homeowner’s association is only partially responsible for allowing Fogen run amok with no supervision or even allowing him to patrol in the first place, knowing full well he is not balanced
A home owners association is not flushed with cash a million dollars is a huge amount.
Absolutely. I’m not sure folks understand how scare a 1MM+ settlement is. For the HOA to settle for that much so relatively quickly they must have really been down on their chances at trial and afraid that their ultimate exposure would have been much higher.
Yep.
Had the HOA not settled pre-trial, just imagine how much costlier this suit would have gotten post-trial after Fogen’s conviction . If it had gone to trial, a civil jury (rightfully furious that an HOA could so mindlessly give blessing to a vigilante renter known to make his rounds with a loaded gun) could have really financially crippled this complex.
Agree with Professor. “More than $1 million” is very good for a settlement well in advance of trial.
Also, the ability to announce that the settlement was for “more than $1 million” is worth a lot in this case, too, IMO.
Normally, settlement agreements prohibit anyone from saying anything about the amount or any other terms. Often, civil defendants are more concerned about keeping the amount secret than they are about the amount, itself. So a concession in that regard is a tribute to Mr. Crump’s negotiation skills and/or negotiation position.
This publicity is very valuable, because it clearly was no pittance settlement and might get others (if he has others in mind besides the killer) re-thinking and shaking in their shoes a bit.
IMHO, “More than $1million” is a very “BROAD” statement… just saying… Who knows how much the actual settlement was… But I’m sure there’s a method to their madness…
Exactly. It could be WELL OVER a million dollars, for all any of us knows!
More than a million, covers anything between $1,000,000.01 and $1,999.999.99.
A penny for Team Fogen’s thoughts, about now.
It was QUICK, which is a very good thing.
It is significant.
And the fact that real-world lawyers for an insurance company (covering the HOA liability) caved so fast means that they realized there was a HUGE exposure there. THIS IS SIMPLY FABULOUS NEWS and Crump is not only to be congratulated but sincerely thanked.
Hey Outhousers and your ilk: Think it’s “free” to go killing kids you don’t like? Think-a-damn-gain!
Do any of us know a landlord who will be eager to rent to Fogen now? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!
I think there is a cell with his name on it who will be more than happy to rent to him. I don’t know about there, but here you have to help pay for your incarceration.
A prospective landlord for Fogen? I do believe the State of Florida has non-waterfront housing with minimal amenities available for guys like him.
The way I read it is, that they turned down a 1 million dollar settlement earlier. The amount is not disclosed so the presumption is that the amount must be higher than 1 million. How much higher is anybody’s guess.
Yup. It might be an excellent (not just “very good”) settlement! I am so happy about this news!
The way you read it, seems to have a source: Mark O’Mara, at least the Orlando Sentinel attributed this statement to him. Supposedly he said it during an interview in February. Now what really makes me wonder what exact interview as it, and what was the context. Was he asked about the case, and why did he know about it? Taaffe? HOA’s president? Or was it news? If it was why would Stutzman refer to O’Mara in this context?
@LeaNder
@Leander
Is LeaNder taking over Leander’s name and possibly her persona?
Why?
It is definitely higher than $1 million. From my observations of civil suits, generally the defendant will make a plea and then if the plaintiff does not accept, the defendant must make a higher plea.
Best news I’ve had in months! Well done and bravo!!
WOW!!!! great news, Good JOB Mr Crump. He will be all kinds of bad names by all the little bad people…ya got ta love it…:)
**tears**
I’m sure Sybrina would give anything to hear Trayvon call her cupcake again. I’m sure tracy would give anything to have his son visit him again and spend time with him again. I’m sure jahvaris would give anything to hang out with his little brother again.They actually heard Trayvon die,the whole world heard him die. Zimmerpunk better enjoy his remaining months of freedom. because he’s done.
I could not agree more. You said a lot there.
I agree with you 100%.
I whole heartily agree. Nicely stated kllypyn
*High five!* More justice is on it’s way for you, Travyon!
BOOM!
This is good news.
BOOM Like That!
No particular message in the lyrics but for the title, and some afternoon playing a little (upbeat)
rock.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oqG1RxHlSo
What great news, what a great message they are sending.
Good and clean and the right thing to do.
CONGRATULATIONS, Sybrina and Tracy, i’t’s got to be a tremendous moral boost and a small step towards recognition of the wrong done to Trayvon, his family and friends.
Awesome! Love Mark Knopfler!
My personal opinion
the other residents that Fogen terrorized and threatened on his “patrols” and other residents in general, should also sue the homeowner’s association for letting that wacko Fogen run amok in that complex… if it was not Trayvon it would be someone else, probably a black person
Why stop there? I say also as well sue Junior and the father as well
They should sue jr and family and the tree house and others for defamation. Especially for defaming a kid who never did any harm to anyone.
Hi Jun, just a question. I remember hearing/reading how some residents complained about gz driving with his lights off etc and was just wondering if this was actually in the evidence/disclosure as well. I hope so. thanks
Ask Xena or Malisha
I actually learned it from them so you would have to ask them because I am not sure
@Jun Not me. I’ve read someone say that GZ was driving on NW patrol with his headlights off, but have not read that anywhere other than in comments. I don’t know the significance since NW is to observe and report and not patrol.
FBI investigation…
Doc dump 2 pg 111
“[Unidentified Female Witness] would see Zimmerman drive around the neighborhood with his car lights off. She would also see him check the walkways with flashlights late at night.”
Early news reports actually quoted residents and even one teen-aged Black resident saying he had “patrolled” around in his car with the lights off, that he had harassed them, that he was “very strict,” that he followed African Americans, that he distributed fliers telling residents to beware of young African American males, and that one of them (Ibrahim Rashada) would drive into town to take his walks and exercise because he was unwilling to walk around at RTL because “I didn’t want to be chased.” Then an article pointed out that a resident attending the March 1, 2012 HOA meeting was upset because he had made more than one complaint to the police about Fogen’s behavior but no action had been taken. That resident was “escorted out” of the HOA meeting for saying that! It was reported that he “had to be escorted out” and guess who was at that HOA meeting (and who therefore probably escorted the resident out): Chief Bill Lee and a “council member.”
Jun — Agreed. If not Trayvon, it would have been someone , sometime targeted by this fool on a mission …
Congratulations on the settlement. But I’m sure they would rather have Trayvon than the money.
If he is found guilty, I doubt that there will be a civil trial. Since there is no SYG hearing, fogen is not immune from a civil suit even if found not guilty or if there is a mistrial. He will either be in jail or so far in debt he will never get out.
I don’t know, bettykath. I’m thinking there would still be a civil suit in order to lay claim to any gain the killer might receive – e.g., any “story” via books, movies, or such. If that’s legally permitted, it would at least serve as a disincentive for the killer to try to profit from his behavior, because he won’t. JMO.
exactly
I thought that adjudged criminals were legally prohibited from benefitting financially from their crimes–specifically to prevent selling book/film rights. Anyone?
Once convicted, Fogen can’t make a dime from this. The Son of Sam law will take effect when the “y” in “guilty” hits the air.
@Groans:
This animal has already and still is profiting from his behavio and his lies!! ! It is downright disgusting to see the accused begging for “donations” and his parents are just as bad! I have never in my life seen anything like this from an accused killer! Begging for money! I hope the family of TM get anything and everything this socio-pathic killer has down to his underwear! Leave him with NOTHING! In NY, we have the Son of Sam law. Does Florida have this as well?
I don’t see Ben Crump missing a single opportunity to bring this racist, arrogant, scumbag family to their knees. If nothing else, civil litigation against any and all will cost them a bloody fortune in legal fees … a fortune that is likely to outpace diminishing donations to the begging trough.
They may sue him. When he’s convicted they will win on a Motion. Even though he owns nothing of value, he has what’s left of his PeterPan money and any assets.
What happened to the guarantee by the Zidiots that the civil lawsuit would be dismissed and Fogen will win his NBC suit and when he files one against Trayvon’s parents and Crump for all this torture ??
Pipedream.
They sure had a lot of guarantees that went up in smoke.
LOL! A civil suit will guarantee that GZ won’t have enough change to buy pop tarts and rootbeer barrels at the commissary! He should NOT benefit in ANY WAY from the murder he committed.
Oh he won’t benefit and he’d better have hoarded some of those Root Beer Barrels, because the good life went right on down that cesspool with his Cherry Pop Tarts.
Of course there is that “Son of Sam” law when he’s convicted to prevent him from making a single dime from this.
Anybody see that “The lawsuit against the HOA will be dismissed” guarantee lying around anywhere ?? Is in next to that “No arrest guarantee” maybe???
I was wondering that too.
A smack to the smirk! I love it! Justice for Trayvon!
Right in the smirk too. POW !!
As Ralph Kramden used to say: One of these days … POW, right in the kisser.
Very good.They should pay for allowing fogen as NW.
Just curious: does anyone know how many units there are in the Retreat at Twin Lakes?
Over 200 – is it approx 240?
That means a nice chunk for each of them.
@Pyorck – although the article was not clear, i suspect their liability insurance is paying the settlement and not individual homeowners.
The homeowners are not responsible
The homeowners even complained and warned about Fogen
The homeowner’s association themselves are responsible, as the organization they are that profits off the homeowner’s
as such, it comes out their pocket, not out of the homeowner’s insurance claims
@Jun
Ah, ok. I didn’t know how American HOAs work. Here their equivalents are not corporations and have only minimal independent identity. They are just a front for the individual owners. Up to a point they keep reserve funds, but owners are liable for debts according to the share of the property that they own. Of course those funds are normally intended for more routine expenses and it all comes out of the owners’ pockets one way or the other.
(ignoring possible insurance coverage)
Pyork
That is not what I meant
The organization, are the ones responsible for the negligence, therefore, they can’t pawn off their responsibility onto the residents, because the residents never made the decision to hire Fogen
Fogen self appointed himself, and the HOA allowed it, even after repeated complaints and warnings of his behavior
The HOA also lacked investigation into Fogen’s history
The HOA, legally, is a seperate organization from the residents, and the residents can not be held responsible for decisions they choose
@ Jun and PYorck – You might want to read this. Although it’s apparently an OS article (but not Rene’s), the fact that it’s on the Parks & Crump web site gives me some confidence that it might be at least mostly accurate about HOA and property management liability – and its impact on homeowners in Florida.
http://parkscrump.com/homeowners-could-pay-in-trayvon-martin-killing/
IMO, Crump is incorrect, because a Homeowner’s association is a seperate entity, a corporation, run by real estate companies
Since it is a seperate entity, it can only be responsible for actions they themselves have done, which can not be parceled off to the residents of the complex, as the HOA are solely responsible for their decisions
That is like a car insurance company holding all insurance clients responsible for something the car insurance company did themselves
The residents have nothing to do with the decisions HOA made, and if the HOA tried to make the residents pay the HOA for their mistake, the residents could legally sue the HOA
The residents have no responsibility to what happened
No, I think the article on Crump’s website is correct. You might be confusing the management of the HOA with the HOA itself. The homeowners usually pays HOA fees for certain services (e.g. pools, rec centers, grass cutting, outside maintainence, etc.) and while their civil liabilities are usually covered by insurance policies, if they have to pay a settlement, HOAs usually pass an “assessment” onto HOA members which are usually homeowners. This type of stuff should be a cautionary tale for HOAs and homeowners.
Most HOA are incorporated and typically forced onto the homeowners, even if they do not want the HOA
In Canada we have the same thing, and they are a seperate organization and entity from the homeowners, therefore, anything they decide or do, is their responsibility
The HOA can try to pass it off onto the homeowner’s but personally if the HOA tried to do that to me, I would sue them, because I should not be held responsible for decisions and actions they did, especially considering repeated complaints and warnings of the Fogen
I’d straight up tell the HOA to kiss my ass and round up the whole residency to petition and sue the HOA for trying to pass off financial responsibility onto the residents, due to their negligent decisions which resulted in a teenage boy’s death and numerous other Fogen issues
I feel the residents are safe from paying the HOA’s bill and if not, they can go after the HOA for underhanded dealings
Good point. I’m not sure if the homeowners are safe from an attempted assessment but, if the HOA tried it, I’d do the same as you.
@Jun, once the homes have been bought the property’s responsibilities move from the development company to the home owners.
and this is why condo owners have Home Owners Association Meetings. one thing they do is make rules and guidelines, vote on rules, make decisions on things like what kind of security is needed.
they do this to protect *themselves* from civil liabilities.
so no one breaks their leg walking thru the parking lot by falling into a 3 year old, 3 foot deep pot hole, that was hidden from view because the light bulb in the light post has been burned out for 3 weeks.
( this is why it’s always confused me that gz was at these meetings in the first place. he doesn’t get the same considerations (vote) nor the same responsibilities as an invested owner! he’s not the one losing his home when they get sued! they must be pretty fast and loose with the rules for some reason…)
it’s collective property so as owners, they hire a building manager to take care of the parking lot and stuff but we are ultimately responsible for what happens at our own house.
you’d think a good one would be discussing the incoming complaints about some moron resident who’s taken to patrolling while armed, intimidating and harassing home owners who are outside, peacefully enjoying their own property.
and making sure whomever ( be it the building manager or another owner) is assisting or allowing him do it is also promptly dealt with too!
I’m sure that person/s is pretty nervous right about now!
they might be ready to talk to the state now that the rest of the HOA is breathing down their necks!!
Shannon
I’d have to do research but in a general consensus and most HOA’s, they act as an undemocratic property management entity, and obviously as that entity, they did not listen to residents whom complained about Fogen’s weirdo activities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeowner_association
Most HOA’s act without ever consulting any of the tenants and tenants are forced to have the HOA within their complex
Considering the possibility that their is a high percentage likelihood that the HOA are an entity (95% chance), homeowners and residents would not be responsible for actions the actual HOA board took on
So even if the HOA tried to get the residents to pay, the residents are allowed to object and actually sue the HOA for making them pay for their negligent actions, especially after being forewarned of Fogen repeatedly
A good look and fact is, Fogen was never voted on or appointed by the residents, Fogen and the HOA did, therefore, the culpability lies on them
Personally I think the homeowner’s are safe, and if necessary, they can take sanction against the HOA and I am fairly sure none of the residents want to pay for something they were not responsible for deciding and enacting, because it is their right as a homeowner
For whatever reason, I have the number 263 in mind. I somehow can store numbers really easily, so it may well be true. If my source was correct, that is.
260-262 I believe
I have read 260 units.
“you’d think a good one [board, management] would be discussing the incoming complaints about some moron resident who’s taken to patrolling while armed, intimidating and harassing home owners who are outside, peacefully enjoying their own property.” — Shannon in Miami
Shannon — Insightful post upthread showing understanding of how condo HOAs work down here. And your quote above is the biggie question. And, of course, what was a RENTER (especially one who wasn’t even paying his rent) doing hanging out at owner association meetings? Why wasn’t he tossed out on his fat butt?
Therefore, the relatively quick payout before Fogen’s criminal trial is a no-brainer. I’m still wondering if unit owners themselves can legally go after their board members and condo management for their transgressions. .
Dunno, but I always loved the disclaimer from the Real Estate broker:
“Retreat at Twin Lakes
Sales & Property Management
We are an independent brokerage firm NOT affiliated in any way with the Home Owner Association”
http://www.407re.com/RetreatatTwinLakes
Crane-Station,
Judging by the prices listed for available units, I suspect that disclaimer is a recent addition to the broker’s website.
@Jun – The liability insurance of the HOA will pick up the settlement proceeds up to the limit of the policy, and if there are any reserves in the HOA’s account will go towards any overages – but, if the policy limits and the reserves are depleted and funds are still owing under the settlement agreement, the remainder will be assessed on a percentage basis to each unit within the development as a special assessment. So, if the policy limits are 1 million and the HOA’s reserves are 500,000, and the settlement was 2 million, the owners of the units would be assessed a special assessment divided amongst the number of units for the remaining 500,000.
I can understand if it is a necessary assessed needed expense but surely in this manner, the homeowners should not be responsible, for this incident’s travesty
I think in this case, it is a special situation where only certain entities and individuals are responsible with the death, therefore, it should be picked up by the responsible parties, which is the HOA, Fogen, and whomever else was involved
I know what you are saying, but this to me, is not considered a reasonable expense
The fair way would be to find new HOAs and have everyone vote on who should be the new HOA organization for their complex
I feel the residents who are not responsible have a fair case for court and many residents of other complexes have successfully sued their HOAs for underhanded dealings, such as if the HOA responsible for negligence in Trayvon’s death, were to try and pass off their financial bills onto the residents
Let’s be real, Fogen appointed himself captain and the HOA allowed it, even after repeated complaints and warnings of Fogen
Is it likely pre-murder HOA insurance paid out?
Or is each unit owner being forced to fork out a lump sum … or jacked up quarterly assessments to cover a bridge loan for the payout?
No matter how this settlement is being financed (and I would love to know the nitty gritty details), it’s another step in Justice for Trayvon.
Wonder if Frank Tafffffeeeee is off on another bender about now.
In a Florida condo association, after buildout, the HOA takes over from the developer and bills each unit owner a quarterly assessment for pool maintenance, common grounds maintenance, and insurance for various issues (like a drowning in a pool, for instance). Is a fatal shooting or murder covered? Somebody sure thought it would be a good idea to settle cheap before Fogen gets convicted, all the nasty get aired, and the price goes up with extended litigation.
follow
I think the only day I’m going to be happier is – well, you all know when that is.
Oh Yeah !!
Wouldn’t you just love to have seen GZ’s face when he learned of this?
(miss you at HP)
welcome hothead – nice to see you posting here. i can only stand the briefest of interaction on hp these days, especially regarding this case. good to see you here though.
Hi hothead,
So pleased you’ve joined us here
Or the expressions on faces of Junior, Senior, Gladazz, and the rest of the failing Team Fogen.
@Trained observer:
I am sure that Joonyah will be on HP posting his brand of racist rhetorc nonsense like he has been dong for the past few months. He is disgusting! I am sure they are shaking in their boots!
Yes i would have love to have seen his face.
I’ve missed you also. The racist brigade over there is just to much. I jump on over there once in a while and raise hell, but they;re not smart enough to take me on.
Hi Hotheadpaisen!
Good to see you. Skylight here!
Hi HHP, DruDo here. Good to see you. I very rarely comment, but do “visit” here when I can to read what sane people have to say. I’m glad for the Martin’s, but am sure they’d far rather have their son than money. They’ve always behaved in the most dignified manner and deserve every consideration. Maybe this will have an impact on other HOA’s and they’ll be very careful who they choose to be involved in their Neighborhood Watch program.
@DruDo
Yes, Drudo. giving one HOA a good spanking is a lesson to all of them. That is the value of this settlement, in addition to compensating Crump for his splendid advocacy and Trayvon’s parents for their expenses.
I seen to recall when this suit first launched that the HOA had only some picayune policy with a limit of $35,000.
Let’s see what plays out (and pays out) over the next few days.
I know I wish I was a fly on the wall when he got that news…..we all know he broke the HOA rules and the police mentioned the same rules during an HOA meeting…..I bet he is wondering who contribute to his defense fund now?
Hey HP. Glad to see here. I would have paid good money to see his face when he heard about this. He knows his turn is coming soon.
Just the beginning Justice For Trayvon! Yes, Yes, Yes!!
Hi ya Hotheadpaisen!!!!
Justice for Trayvon! Have a beautiful weekend everyone!!!!
1st! YEAH BABY!!! JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON!!!!! WOOT! WOOT!
HOODIES UP! HOORAY!