Zimmerman: When in doubt, George leaves it out. What George did, he blames on the kid

At 10:53 am this morning on LLMpapa’s Dee Dee’s Story thread, Willis Newton posted the following comment:


00:19 into the video, Dee Dee confirms the car-to-pedestrian chase that George omitted, obfuscated, lied and manipulated statements about to the SPD detectives. IMO this is the KEYSTONE to destroying GZ’s credibility and also helps establish a strategy for winning the case for M2. More on that at the end.

George Zimmerman pursued Trayvon WITH HIS CAR before he exited his car, likely causing the teen to panic and run away OFF the roadway and into the cut thru area. There are laws regarding stalking someone in Florida and IMO GZ was breaking this law when he crept his car up behind the teen. ANYTHING that happened after that, ESPECIALLY his getting out of the car with a loaded weapon and (admitting) following the teen is just a nail in George’s coffin metaphorically speaking.

If (and this did NOT happen) TM had been waiting around the corner with a baseball bat and a set of burglary tools a map to the location of all the resident’s laptops and had cold-cocked GZ, the teenager had a legal right to defend himself against an armed stalker. He would have been “standing his ground.”

One cannot claim self defense while already acting in violation of the law. Criminals in the act of committing a crime like GZ was don’t get to claim they acted in self defense.

The “depraved mind” aspect of M2 charges begins (provably) when GZ chases Trayvon with his car. A stopwatch , a map and the NEN call recording ALONE can be used in court to show GZ chased the teen with his car down TTL. But in addition to that proof, it is corroborated by a map GZ personally marked showing his most likely position, facing the mail kiosk from the vicinity of the first bend in TTL, in contradiction to his impossible story of being in the clubhouse parking lot, a story GZ himself backed off from when confronted with the NEN call recording. But also we have Dee Dee’s understanding of events as heard from Trayvon – that he was ahead of a car that was following him and scared by a menacing figure.

Dee Dee is provably telling the truth about the car-to-pedestrian chase and each proof corroborates the other – the deductive reasoning derived from the NEN call recording, and the recollections of a person who was on the phone with the doomed teenager. In opposition to this is a self serving liar who is afraid to take the stand because he lied about THIS IN PARTICULAR in addition to whatever else the state can prove.

In addition to all this there is also the clubhouse videos, which show the position of the car that must be GZ’s, unless there never was any car at all, in which case GZ is still lying. This car seemingly trolls the mail kiosk, runs down to the cut thru area and then returns to exactly where GZ marked a map position he quickly crossed out before telling yet another lie, the story of TM’s doubling back and circling his vehicle, another impossible claim. I am not discounting this important evidence at all, but simply saying that it’s additional evidence and not necessary to proving the case. Nor are Dee Dee’s statements or testimony necessary either. The entire picture can be shown of a car-to-pedestrian chase simply by pitting a map and a stopwatch against the NEN call recording. Also unneeded is GZ’s statements to the police, if you want to exclude them. The proof is so simple once you look at the simple fact that GZ does not exist out of time and space, and that he was SOMEWHERE when he had the following exchange:

NEN CALL TAKER: He’s by the clubhouse now?

GZ: Yeah, and now he’s coming towards me.

This is the bedrock truth that no GZ supported has ever been able to refute credibly. GZ was lying about where he was BECAUSE he had to omit the car to pedestrian chase -he knows what it proves – his own bad intent from the get-go.

What I was saying about trial strategy above relates to where this proof gets the prosecution when arguing before a jury that GZ is guilty of M2. Firstly and importantly, it proves GZ was already guilty of a crime before the physical altercation even began. He was stalking someone in an illegal manner. Second, when giving voluntary statements to the police in the aftermath, George demonstrably lies to obscure this car-to-pedestrian chase. He invents a tale that is impossible to reconcile with the NEN call recording, inserting not one but TWO instances of being “directed” to follow the teen. This clearly never happened, but teasing out why and how George has to claim this happened TWICE (once when he was “in the parking lot” and again when he “went to get an address”) is the key to understanding what really was happening at the time.

GZ probably never saw TM by Frank Taafe’s house. The clubhouse videos and Dee Dee’s call timings along with her recollections seem to show us this. He may even have had a “tip off” to send him out looking for the lad. But it’s a more difficult “proof” to present in court and may not be worth pursuing at trial. These were actions that GZ claims came before a record was established – the NEN call recording, which puts a time clock onto the events of the evening.

Once that time clock is running however, we have something to plot likely and unlikely events against. George’s account comes up wanting, severely when you try to place the individuals at that very important and KNOWN moment in time -the moment GZ seems to say that TM is near the clubhouse, moving towards GZ.

This is where the strategy comes in – GZ is establishing a PATTERN of lies when he speaks of these actions prior to the running around in the dark, the actions that sadly are NOT recorded or witnessed by anyone living other than the (lying) defendant and one person, Dee Dee, who was listening but not able to see what exactly happened.

IMO GZ establishes a pattern to his lies that can be shown at trial EXTENDS into the actions of the missing minutes. “When in doubt, George leaves it out.” Beyond a reasonable doubt, he chased the teen down TTL with his car. And he never admitted this.

In the “missing minutes,” the prosecution can argue he also leaves out incriminating actions, in particular what he was doing and where he moved after the NEN call ended. When in doubt, George leaves it out. He’s got no explanation at all for what he did between the end of the call and the first 911 call, and WAY too much time to have been stationary given the situation – lost “suspect” (aka person he stalked and profiled, illegally), soon-to-be arriving police headed to a different position, and the silly address-looking take. George had enough time to PAINT a new street sign arguably here. Yet he never explains what he did, nor did he call the police to report an address for a meet-up.

Second is the strategy that I call “what George did, he blames on the kid.” GZ claims the teen “doubled back” to circle his car. His supporters also claim the teen “doubled back” to the T in order to confront and beat George in an aggressive manner. George himself never fully makes that assertion, but he is implying it with his account of his movements. But Trayvon never did “double back” from the T to circle George’s vehicle. It would not be possible for him to do this if one cares to try to reconcile this action with the NEN call recording and the assertion on it that the teen was “by the clubhouse now” and “moving towards me.”

What else did George do that he blames on the kid? HE DOUBLED BACK. First after trolling the mail kiosk, and secondly after Trayvon walked past his car on his way home. As GZ can be heard saying “these axxholes always get away” he is PROVABLY starting to follow the teen with his car. Dee Dee knows it. The map and stopwatch prove it. The clubhouse videos DON’T show it, (his lights are off and there is a lens “flare” obscuring the visibility) but the videos do confirm his initial position after the first doubling back action.

It’s also likely GZ “doubled back” in the missing minutes in some fashion, although absent a confession we’ll never know how and where.

GZ also leaves out significantly what he was doing with his hands during almost all of the physical altercation, save draw his weapon and shoot the unarmed teen. “When in doubt,” the prosecution should hammer over and over to the jury, “George leaves it out.” Forensics are likely to suggest George was attempting to detain the teen as he has partially admitted in his tale of an exchange with W6/ John when he speaks about “help me” being “help me hold this kid.” Just like GZ left out the car to pedestrian chase and told heaps of lies to omit, obfuscate and obscure the event, GZ seems to be leaving out his hands and what possible illegal things they were doing.

This is the PATTERN of lies. “When in doubt George leaves it out. What George did, he blames on the kid.”

There are many more examples of situations and evidence that can be presented using this general idea. I’m sure many here can name more, probably a dozen easily. He blames his domestic violence on the other partner. He leaves out that he never completed his degree, etc. He substitutes “something in his waistband” for his own ill-advised concealed weapon, etc. Most significant will be the courtroom battle over who is heard yelling for help on the 911 call. (I personally have no opinion yet on that one, but the prosecution has his mother to present and that will be very powerful, especially if a jury sees a pattern ALREADY established of substitution.)

The list is endless.

Using these two mantras, the prosecution could paint a very very damning picture and give a jury a framework to build a very solid consensus for conviction on, needing only to present each phase of it’s case as more or less holding to one or the other basic principal – that he’s a proven liar who tells two kinds of lies – ones of omission and others of substitution.

Were I the prosecutor, I’d practically pass out free t-shirts to the jury on these three sayings:

Many things are possible; what GZ claims happened is not possible.

When in doubt, George leaves it out.

What George did, he blames on the kid.

136 Responses to Zimmerman: When in doubt, George leaves it out. What George did, he blames on the kid

  1. Nellie Nell says:

    I love LLMPapa’s Youtube videos, but sometimes they make me sob as if Trayvon is my own kid. The latest video “The Beginning” felt like a dagger in my heart as I watched it. It all makes pretty good sense to me simply because George had to have been watching this kid for longer than he says especially because he knew that Trayvon’s hoodie was not black but dark grey. For the life of me, I just can not figure out how he knew that just by what he wants people to believe was a short encounter with Trayvon. In the dark rain, how could one distinguish ‘dark grey’ from ‘black’?

    It is also very interesting that Dee Dee mentions Trayvon cutting through another complex and that is why she says “a few minutes later” instead of a few seconds later. I wonder if the prosecutor has video from that complex that we have not seen yet. Did they get video from a few stores in the area and a bank near by that we know of? Perhaps there is video from this adjacent complex that will show the murderer there following Trayvon?

    This trial can not come soon enough, Seems the defense should have better things to do then to tear down the witnesses, the family attorney and now the prosecutor just to get money out of the small following that they do have. People are fools to want to feed him and pay his rent until he is found guilty.

  2. SlingTrebuchet says:

    Which discovery has the map on which Zimmerman marked positions for Singleton?
    Link and page number? I’m very lazy 🙂

    I am going to do a revamp on my mini-blog.
    My quickie analysis last August of the mathematical impossibility of the Clubhouse walk-past was a verbose brain-dump just before I headed off on a trip.
    That map would be a useful addition.

    • Malisha says:

      SlingT, I take issue with something you said. So we’re gonna fight it out honest and upright with no troll-stuff, OK?

      You lied: “I’m very lazy.”

      Now pologize or the prosecution will CRUMBLE!

      • SlingTrebuchet says:

        OK. I’m VEWY VEWY SOWWY…


        Zimmerman marked positions on a map for Singleton in the second of her interviews on 2/26
        I have seen people mention the map.
        I think there is a YouTube that flashes it.
        I presume it is in one of the discovery releases ..but which one?

        Anyone have a link?
        While I am not actually lazy, I have other stuff that takes lots of my time. 🙂

      • SlingTrebuchet says:

        Ah! I’m not sorry.

        A search on “Zimmerman Singleton Map” gets me

        It’s not the best – a bit ‘Zimmerman’s nose before the color version’ quality – but it’s probably good enough.

        Who woulda thunk?
        Memo to self: Do NOT try long ‘clever’ search terms

        • I’ve been in battle…..I’ve been in war……fogen is the LAST one I’d want covering me……….US Army….9th ID 2/60th

          Shit I have to live with…..in support of my brothers? …..so be it

          I can picture fogen as a crying sniveling ass on the field of battle…..nuff sed

  3. Malisha says:

    I was thinking about being Fogen, strange and horrible to say. I was wondering, if I killed a kid, for any reason (bad one, good one, just any reason), and then I realized I was going to be punished and eh-beh-meh. I might go ahead and lie about how it happened; I might go ahead and say that it was the victim’s fault. But if my brother started going on line and saying really bad untrue things about my victim, THEN wouldn’t I just go quietly to my brother and say something like: “Hey Junior, do me a favor, and lay off this kid. I mean, he attacked me and all and I am innocent but after all, he’s DEAD. If all this hadn’t happened we wouldn’t even know this kid. Don’t say all that stuff about him; don’t speak ill of the dead. Just as a favor to me, you know, don’t say anything else negative about the kid, OK?”

    Imagine not even doing that. Just imagine. Who ARE these people?

    • looolooo says:

      I doubt that Fogen and RZJ even speak to each other. I’ve noticed that MOM never mentions any sort of relationship between the two. And I wouldn’t be suprised if (through MOM, ShelLIE or other family members) Fogen has asked RZJ to knock it off. But RZJ’s agenda does not enclude an aquittal for his mentally deranged brother, his sole focus appears to be a profitable TV or radio show on some FAUX network. And nothing more.

      The aquittal of Fogen would likely render his career aspiration moot. Who’d want to hear from a miniature Fogen knock-off, when they can go have the real mccoy?

      • Trained Observer says:

        Definitely … In Junior’s mind, Fogen is no more than a temporary vehicle to RZ Jr. stardom. Little does he realize that his shelf life will be shorter than Kato Kaelin’s.

      • PYorck says:

        Some time ago he said that they don’t talk about the events of that night.

        Which special insights he has to offer then was not explained.

  4. willisnewton says:

    @ leander and the idea of Shellie ever “wising up…”

    yes I agree she is not possessing a strong sense of personal power, and seems under hubby’s “sway” for the most part and will likely remain so. I may have only superficial thoughts about her psychological makeup (to be honest) since she seems like a somewhat superficial person as well but her tale has got to be quite complicated. It’s difficult, like you say to get the full picture from the jailhouse phone calls. She seems to love and trust him when they are on the phone together, but was she just sticking around until she had control of enough money to leave him? How difficult was their poverty and what effect had it been having on her?

    I don’t think George confided in her the true story of his altercation in the missing minutes, but it’s very possible she knows things like, he wasn’t on his way to Target to grocery shop, and that he was communicating with others that night besides her and that he called that person or persons FIRST to inform them of the killing, and only later dispatched a bystander to inform her. In other words, after the shooting he took the time to chit chat with flashlight/iphone photog “Jon” but was photographed (the bloody head photo) with a phone to his ear. Who was he calling? Did he reach them? It doesn’t seem like he reached Shellie at that time, since he had to tell “Jon” to “just tell her I shot someone.”

    It’s unclear how this all went down. Maybe GZ called her number and was placed into handcuffs before she was able to answer, and the phone was given to Jon. We don’t know.

    She knows she is facing at least a year of probation for her perjury, and possibly also actual jail time if they “throw the book at her.” And she knows her hubby hasn’t been 100% straight with her, I can almost guarantee that. If convicted of a felony she may not be able to qualify as a nurse. I’ve heard that is a possibility but don’t know all the facts. If she contemplates her husband going to prison for decades, as he is likely to do, how will she support herself?

    Then there are the issues of marital fidelity, the fact that questions about who wants kids and who may not are hovering, (for all we know she may be pregnant by now, even!) and whatever petty rivalries surround the inter-family relationships.

    Somewhat out of the spotlight but IMO right in the middle of all this is GZ’s sister. Then there are all of the “What did they know and when did they know it” questions about GZ’s mom and dad, who put their house up as collateral to a bondsman when George could have easily paid he whole amount in cash from his donated funds. Were they “in the loop” regarding the hidden passport and the full amount of donated money that was being moved around, and the escape plan this all may imply? Were they accomplices or dupes, and are any family members/ in-laws facing a sealed charge of “structuring” that’s pending, or have one or more ALREADY agreed to turn “State’s evidence” in exchange for limited immunity? Let’s face it, the first one to rat out the others is going to get the “cheese” of immunity, and they’ve all likely been lied to by George even BEFORE this case came up.

    Even rats know when to leave a sinking ship. The pressure on Shellie has got be getting to her. Look at GZ putting on a hundred pounds. Do you suppose she cooks all that food? I doubt she feels much like going on a diet while he eats and eats and eats.

    We know that GZ is a pill-popper and under treatment for multiple conditions. Is she a third tier vegan and never takes even an aspirin for a headache? I doubt it. She’s surrounded by a “pill for every ailment” culture in her home and schooling.

    How has her relationship towards MOM changed now that her lawyer has likely explained to her that he stands ready to throw her under the bus?

    And so on, but its all speculation at present.

    • willisnewton says:

      Also, how does she feel about having the handgun in the first place? Was the alleged murder weapon really hers? Did George pawn his and “borrow” hers without asking? So many possibilities and we just don’t know.

      • @Willis…..

        It would be funny as hell to find out that if fogen actually had purchased a kel-tec himself that he sold it for a profit to some gangbanger.

        To me though….the reality is only one firearm was purchased.

        I base this on their financial situation.

        fogen….”We don’t need to buy 2 pistols..or have the money for it..we’ll just buy one….OH and in YOUR name”

        • fauxmccoy says:


          gaaahhh! don’t even get me started on what a crap ass piece of work that particular model of hand gun is. most definitely the low end, entry point for those who either have no sense and/or no cash.

      • willisnewton says:

        Buying the gun in her name is such a weird thing.

        There was a SIMPSONS episode that comes to mind where Homer bought his wife Marge a “birthday present ” that was a bowling ball with HIS finger size and name engraved on it.

        Imagine if GZ had not called the cops, but had just stalked and shot TM, and then fled the scene. Ballistics could have eventually traced the murder weapon to her. Thanks, hubby!

    • Trained Observer says:

      Many salient points, Willis.

      Somewhere amid all the docs and reports, I recall reading something where Fogen alludes to his desire for children whille his Missus didn’t want any.

      Of course, that could be yet another of Fogen’s twisted lies where he attributes his wishes to her.

      He definitely did yammer about his “unborn children” during the Hannity interview.

      • elcymoo says:

        Trained Observer says:
        March 28, 2013 at 11:47 pm
        Many salient points, Willis.

        Somewhere amid all the docs and reports, I recall reading something where Fogen alludes to his desire for children whille his Missus didn’t want any.

        Of course, that could be yet another of Fogen’s twisted lies where he attributes his wishes to her.

        He definitely did yammer about his “unborn children” during the Hannity interview.


        In the statement by GZ’s former girlfriend, where she relates that he’d tried to resume a relationship with her after he and Shellie were married, she said that he told her that he wanted children, and that Shellie didn’t.

        • cielo62 says:

          Elcymoo- I remember that tidbit. Again I have to ask; what was the plan? He’s married but wants kids by a different woman? I don’t see child support flowing voluntarily since he’s such a deadbeat. If say it was a case of having two pieces of cake!

          Sent from my iPod

  5. Lonnie Starr says:

    Another piece of the puzzle is that, the person who is on top straddling, cannot lean very far forward because he must not
    allow his center of gravity to move forward of his knees. Since his knees are his base. If he leans more than just a handful of degrees forward, he topples forward and must use his hands for support, thus he losses the ability to use his hand for much in the way of assault.

    This is yet another reason why it is not possible for GZ to take a straight in shot with no angle, from the stated position. Worse yet, is that, if they are in this position and GZ grabs TM’s clothing center chest and pulls towards himself, TM has to topple foward and thus is helpless, since he can only use his hands for support. Either that or lay supine on top of GZ, in which case any intermediate range shot is impossible.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      And did either gz or Trayvon have mud/grass on his knees? gz looked mighty clean in his police-station photos. (What’s in the fiber analysis? Not Brady material, it would seem.)

  6. willisnewton says:

    @ Xena

    not to quibble but the 1921 race riot in Oklahoma was in Tulsa, not OKC.

    The leading local newspaper, the Tulsa World supposedly printed a story the day before calling all “white citizens” or whatever to arms and announcing a rally point for the mob that eventually employed airplanes, machine guns and a convoy or trucks to systematically destroy the black community. The death toll is disputed; at least 300 were probably killed, many buried in mass graves. Some 10,000 were displaced.

    Although every other issue has been preserved since the newspaper’s inception, no copy of this edition has surfaced since, and the publisher conveniently denies this rally cry ever made it into print. No official investigation ever was established to ferret out the exact truth of the situation. Not to make too close of a parallel, but no credible outside agency seems to have done the post-mortem on the SPD and Norm Wolfinger’s involvement in the Trayvon Martin case either.

    Shades of Rowanda…. a mass media call for ethnic cleansing.

    1921 sounds like a long time ago, but it was solidly in the era of modernity – cars, telephones, mass media and the dawning of radio as well. We’ve not come so far as we might think I fear.

    • Xena says:


      not to quibble but the 1921 race riot in Oklahoma was in Tulsa, not OKC.

      You’re right. Thanks for the correction.

      The leading local newspaper, the Tulsa World supposedly printed a story the day before calling all “white citizens” or whatever to arms and announcing a rally point for the mob that eventually employed airplanes, machine guns and a convoy or trucks to systematically destroy the black community….

      Ahhh. Now I remember why I was confused about the city. When the OKC bombing of the federal building happened, there was an article titled “This was not first bombing in Oklahoma.” The author, whose name I don’t remember now, went on to say that it was first bombing from the air on American soil.

      1921 sounds like a long time ago, but it was solidly in the era of modernity – cars, telephones, mass media and the dawning of radio as well. We’ve not come so far as we might think I fear.

      Sounds like a long time ago but the attitude still exists today like what we see expressed by GZ’s supporters and his brother. There are several Youtube videos about the White race riot in Tulsa. Just in case others are interested, the following is one of the shortage Youtube videos that summarizes what happened.

      • jd says:

        wow that’s a major point I overlooked… the first bombing of an American city from the air was in Tulsa…

        I think the first bombing of a civilian population was by the British in what is now Saudi Arabia against unfriendly tribal communities… I suppose it’s easier to terror bomb people you don’t view as “fully human” somehow. What a long way we have still to go.

        • Xena says:

          @jd. The destruction of an entire section of Tulsa by Whites with the weapons to do so, is a taint upon American history. Sadly, it still serves for the premise that no matter how successful, educated, and financially lucrative Blacks are, bigoted racists never see them equal to Whites.

      • willisnewton says:

        small correction – thanks for posting the video – the newspaper that was “disappeared” Stalin-style was the Tulsa Tribune, not the later Tulsa World.

        I personally have combed through archives looking for a copy of that paper, including visiting small town libraries in the vicinity hoping to find a paper copy bound somewhere. No luck. maybe someday one will surface.

        I’d not revisited this story in over a decade… glad to see it’s on YouTube in a format that is easy for people to learn about.

        Tulsa was just one city – Rosewood, Texarkana, Omaha and I’m certain other places had race riots in the 1920s. What a dark underbelly these incidents uncovered.

  7. Jeanette says:

    I’m a generally a lurker here. Another poster brought up the 911 call that captured the screams & cries for help. Over the weekend, I listened to an older interview of Trayvon’s brother, Jahvaris, which immediately cut to the taped screams captured on the 911 call. The similarity of the voice of Jahvaris and that on the 911 tape were unnerving to say the least. Enough to bring me to tears. I have zero doubt that the screams on tape were those of Trayvon.

  8. esentrick says:

    Great post Willis!

  9. nocamo33 says:

    Bravo Mr. Newton. Thanks for sharing this with us Prof. Leatherman.

  10. Jun says:

    I been saying it since the beginning. Since seeing the kid, all Fogen did was try to frame the kid. Then after terrorizing and killing the kid, he tried to frame the kid for assault. Forensics do not lie. The kid never caused any of that mess Fogen has.

  11. fauxmccoy says:

    willis – you have outdone your own self here. your observations and summation ring true. thank you.

  12. elcymoo says:

    The definitive thing that proved to me that GZ was projecting his own actions onto Trayvon – ‘what George did, he blamed on the kid’ – occurred during that walkthrough re-enactment at the crime scene, when he demonstrated how TM smothered him, by extending his hands out AWAY from his own mouth and nose. I have little doubt that he was trying to cut off Trayvon’s desperate screams for help.

    • bettykath says:

      Right you are. If it were Trayvon doing the smothering, fogen’s hands would have been on his own face.

  13. Nef05 says:

    Forgive me if this is already posted. I looked but I haven’t seen it.

    O’Mara’s reply to Blackwell’s response to Motion to Reconsider:

    Click to access defendant_rep.pdf

    • IC2 says:

      Thanks for the link Nef05, I haven’t seen this one yet. More of O’maras’ red herrings wasting courts’ time and trying to divert from the real facts of this trial.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      You know what I find interesting in this response… It is signed by both West and O’Mara.

      Jordan2222 recently defended the defense when SD took notice that West hasn’t signed any motions lately. The mods told her to call the defense herself and ask them if he has written any motions lately, since she is reputedly on good terms with them.

      What’s interesting is, today this motion in response to Blackwell’s response is signed by both defense atty’s and SD makes a new thread with a picture of the signatures.

      Communicating much??

      • Xena says:

        O’Mara will do whatever pleases his $5 whores.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Apparently so, but I’m starting to think that West is the one who is swinging with the nuts in the treehouse though. He sounds just like them. I wouldn’t doubt that he communicates with a select few or maybe the leader.

        Sometimes when I think about West and MOM getting their ideas from them, I smile and am amused at the insanity, yet other times I get frustrated and a little sick to my stomach because it really is sad that two attorneys would stoop to this level and allow themselves to look like idiots. I sometimes feel embarrassed for them. I get that they have nothing to defend their client, but from what I gather, these two were respected before representing Fogen….

        But I go right back to smiling, because I usually get a vivid picture in my head of MoM, West and Fogen all sitting together over a laptop reading comments from CTH and Huff post. Fogen gets excited and points out all of the things he reads about DeeDee and Crump and writes them down. Then they get Jr on conference call and they all strategize how to use this great information at the next hearing. Fogen tells Shellie all about the good stuff they got and she hops on her laptop and starts writing on the blogs under her fake name, and then late at night Fogen, Shellie and Jr get drunk together and have a big twitter party.


        • fauxmccoy says:

          @chrisny — i like your vision of ‘defense strategy meetings’… i suspect it may be closer to the truth than anyone would care to admit. 😀

      • Nef05 says:

        All I can do is smh. Got to keep those donations rolling in. I hope fogen decides he simply must testify. The sheer pleasure of watching him get destroyed under BDLR’s cross examination would only be enhanced by to complete meltdown they would be having over there, while it was going on.

    • Thanks for linking to the stinker reply to Blackwell’s excellent response.

      • Nef05 says:

        I thought it was pretty weak when I read it. I kept hearing, “I know I am, but what are you?” children’s taunt, in my head as I read it.

  14. Tzar says:

    There is a reason that the treehouse types are so incensed at the photo that became widely distributed; and it’s not just that Trayvon Martin was younger – it’s that he is good looking, young and smiling. I shudder to think how that inversion/ perversion works in the mind of haters (who would also have to be represented in a screenplay). Putting yourself into that mindset is not part of the fun of being a writer.

    I surmised this from jump and realized that, with this case, ground must be gained for the not so good looking, the not so young, and the not so smiling and even thuggish young men who’s right to walk home in peace may one day need to be defended with equal zeal.

    • willisnewton says:


      I think it may be Jung who equates the King figure in mythology not with the powerful but with those who are weak and possibly flawed and most in need of protection. To truly be great and to deserve a position of “authority” as Fogen so desired means the opposite of what he sought; not to lord over others but to serve the least and the many, not the privileged and the few.

      Jesus preached that the meek were the rightful inheritors of the earth.

      The hebrew and christian god supposedly “marks the sparrow’s fall.”

      Like I said, the destruction of beauty strikes a chord with humanity, but any waste of life is an abomination. And everyone is equal in the eyes of a higher power. I’m not religious but I am spiritual. Humility is one of the greatest sentiments humans are capable of, and too rare to find these days. Trayvon was his mother’s son and sadly little more than that when he died, but there are those who have and had less then he who deserve the same measure of justice. Let’s hope a victory for one is a victory for all but also a reminder that the struggle continues.

      REAL leaders like Ghandi emerge from the crowd and are not elected so much as recognized for their truth-speaking. Martin Luther King comes to mind as someone who had almost no real “authority” to command anyone to do anything. He was a junior pastor at a small church in a southern town that wasn’t on the radar of most Americans. Yet look at the good he spread simply by reminding us to be our better selves, and to meet hatred with the one force that overcomes anything and cannot be defeated: love.

      • leander22 says:

        Yet look at the good he spread simply by reminding us to be our better selves

        Why do you think that this message seemed so threatening to some, people who often claim to be righteous and religious citizen at the same time at least as far as superficial rituals are concerned?

        The problem may be what surfaced in GZ tale, ultimately it’s all in God’s hand so they don’t have to take any responsibility.

        Have we ever heard of anybody come forward and confirm the leaflets he supposedly distributed at the gates of black churches? If he did this every Sunday over weeks there should be many in Sanford. I wish I could take a plane and look a little closer into this story, talk to people there.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @leander – i shall go to my favorite source on this leaflet business. bottom line is that the homeless man’s attorney (none other than natalie jackson) does not remember gz being involved, none of the leaders in the black church community recall gz being involved. i think it’s the apex of arrogance for anyone to suggest that the black community needed the savior riding in on his white horse to contact the NAACP on their behalf.

          once again, reporting for the grio.com and msnbc, is joy-ann reid who as a journalist can write circles around rene stutzman.


          • leander22 says:

            I actually wanted this quote:

            Calling the purported Zimmerman family letter “pure propaganda,” Jackson wrote that it “has done a disservice to Zimmerman.”

      • leander22 says:

        Thanks fauxy, (also thanks to whoever created that coinage ;))

        Yes, Jo-Ann Reid is one of the best on the case. I love “writing circles around Stutzman”.

        I have to admit that I always was instinctively with Natalie Jackson:

        “I am incensed by some of the efforts to publicly tear our community and make the tragic death of Trayvon Martin as simplistic as a race issue,” Jackson wrote.

        What a pity the link to her response is “dead”. I have to admit that I occasionally asked myself, if either Robert junior or senior had anything to do with intelligence in the military. I understand jun joined the military too … Based on this suspicion I would go further than propaganda, I would call it perception management.

        But thanks, I’ll look more closely into this.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @leander — glad the article was helpful. joy-ann reid’s reporting on this has been excellent. i am not much of a twitter fan, but she is one person i do follow. if real news breaks on this story, she is one of the first to get it out.

          • leander22 says:

            thanks for the hint. Maybe twitter can be much more helpful than I want to believe. Are you fauxy over there too?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            yes, same name – but i do not tweet much… mostly just odd observations i have made, but feel free to take a look. my blog is where i tend to really let loose when the mood strikes.

  15. willisnewton says:

    @ amsterdam

    I agree that the case has “shades of Emmet Till” and yes I’ve seen that excellent documentary, as should anyone with an interest in this case or in America in particular.

    One thing Charles Blow points out in regards to the similarities is the Emmet Till was strikingly handsome, something that may in a horrid way have played into the racism and his lynching. To destroy something so beautiful is a perversion that speaks to the ugliness inside a racist mindset.

    There is a reason that the treehouse types are so incensed at the photo that became widely distributed; and it’s not just that Trayvon Martin was younger – it’s that he is good looking, young and smiling. I shudder to think how that inversion/ perversion works in the mind of haters (who would also have to be represented in a screenplay). Putting yourself into that mindset is not part of the fun of being a writer.

    (transitioning the topic back to “how would a movie of all this be structured” now)

    On the aspect of bloggers that makes this a “new kind of trial,” yes, I agree it’s certainly a new wrinkle that could be included in a screenplay that tries to dramatize the case. I would hope the “white hats” would be more interesting than the haters but we don’t know yet.

    Because the prosecution has to shield strategy, we don’t know the inside story of those characters and what they are all about just yet. But that’s generally the “good guys” in a movie that has a climax with a courtroom scene and a verdict.

    Certainly the online petition that brought the case to wide national attention is the biggest effect social media has had on the case. I doubt highly anyone would have ever heard of this case but for the petition drive.

    I don’t tweet, so I really need a “colorful native guide” to explain that aspect of the case if I ever really get going on a script. Twitter is a big deal, it’s just not MY deal… yet.

    Courthouse dramas can make for good films. THE VERDICT, ERIN BROCKOVICH and HURRICANE, about the Rueben Carter case come to mind immediately when I start thinking of the genre, and there is always TWELVE ANGRY MEN and the like to consider as models too…. what else is there that might be comparable to this case? Films that are NOT courtroom dramas like THE SOCIAL NETWORK come to mind, but IMO the internet is a lousy subject for a movie.

    ALL THE PRESIDENT’S MEN is a good “procedural” drama that follows a crime as it gains national attention over many months. Certainly the “dogged bloggers as heroes” storyline could be modeled after that one about the investigative reporters who helped break the Watergate scandal.

    But at the moment I can’t think of a close model of a story that is like this one. Maybe I’m not thinking hard enough.

    • 2dogsonly says:

      @willisnewton &@amsterdam
      Blast from the past.

    • bettykath says:

      Start with the NEN call and a reenactment using one of the defendant’s early stories. The missing two minutes would be shadows too dark to see. Ending with the screams and the gunshot.

      Tell the next part of the story with a couple of composite characters that frequent the internet – one on each side, maybe with a sidekick or two for dialog on what they are doing/thinking/blogging as the discovery is made available. One of the sidekicks a precocious law student to provide some of what the professor has provided here? Maybe they look in on this blog and the treehouse.

      Maybe more than one reenactment as envisioned by the bloggers. Redo the NEN call and a reenactment as supported by DeeDee’s statement and a “corrections” to the defendant’s story. We’ve had several possible scenarios here, especially with regard to the missing 2 minutes. Multiple possibilities for Trayvon’s entries into the complex, multiple possibilities for fogen’s whereabouts, multiple possibilities for Trayvon’s path (approaching fogen’s truck, circling it, etc.) Are there alternate scenarios on the other side each supporting one of fogen’s stories?

      Followup would be the courtroom scenes. Maybe the final reenactment would be after evidence is introduced to show the more likely scenario. Ending with fogen leaving for jail. Fade out with the ghost of Travon.

      I think there’s a screen play here but I’m not an expert.

      • willisnewton says:

        not bad, its kind of a RASHOMON story to begin with. For those unfamiliar, this is a Japanese film that tells the story of an altercation involving rape and murder from the viewpoint of the four participants, including IIRC the deceased boyfriend via the use of a spiritualist who conjures up his ghost to testify in court. In one version, the bandit is a redeemer, in another, the woman a temptress, etc. A classic of cinema.

        Like a so called “litmus test” many people see what they want to see in the basic outline of the killing of Trayvon Martin case. And this invariably offends the types who see it differently. Frankly it’s a mess, just like the soul of the USA is. We as a people want justice but are easily distracted by a convenient lie.

        Stepping back from the facts of the case is foolish if you care first and foremost about justice. But conflict, drama and artistic truth are what makes a compelling movie.

        It’s just that I wouldn’t care to make a film that bends the facts to make an “artistic statement” even tho i see the reasoning.

        ZERO DARK THIRTY suggests that the trail to Bin Laden’s courier was uncovered thru torture. This is factually not true, and the film makers have actually issued a retraction (I hear tell) in retrospect.. They set out to make the idea of “is torture worth it” part of the theme of the film according to what they say in defense, but I’m not yet convinced. I admire the film makers but have to admit I was turned off by the film. I’d hate to repeat the mistakes they made by making a film that re-imagined anything offensive even if it were to make a larger point.

        Tricky stuff. Food for thought.

      • Malisha says:

        WillisNewton, BRILLIANT!

        I thought “Rashomon” several times but did not (IIRC) bring it up. Of course, the one scenario that will not play for the Rashomon explanations is the one Fogen tells.

        But in Rashomon, if you will think about this: Was not the husband the real “criminal” when you think about how the scene unfolded? HE abandoned his defenseless wife to go off with a known criminal looking for a valuable contraband sword; HE let greed interfere with HIS responsibility and he took part in something HE knew to be wrong and contrary to his honor code. So he actually caused the whole thing; yet he is seen as the big innocent whom everyone else dishonored (and killed). That is one aspect of the story that I always played with.

      • Malisha says:

        P.S.: As Fogen set up the Trayvon Martin scene, the Husband (in Rashomon) set up the Rashomon scene. For their own reasons, all wrong and all narcissistic and all unforgiveable, these “catalysts” set up a murder that they then claimed was perpetrated upon poor them.

      • leander22 says:

        not bad, its kind of a RASHOMON story to begin with. For those unfamiliar

        Yes, yes. That could be a good model. Interesting that this is about rape isn’t it?

        That could provide a tool to the visualization of the somewhat difficult protray virtual reality. Tchoubi and friends could be some type of model. They meet online only and the result is their scenario. But you witness their exchange. Hmm? Still slightly difficult. You don’t want people to read. What about Skype?

      • leander22 says:

        Malisha, there it is again. A déja vu, isn’t it?

        Above I thought somewhere you should be part of the project and while I wrote about the Skype Scenario, virtual meeting visualized, I regretted to not have put you into the set as part of the necessary joker in the team, to keep up spirit. I also would very carefully protest the idea of bettykath, with all due respect that there has to be a student somehow substituting for our professor. The people on Trayvon’s side should in fact represent all ages. 😉

        You also were on my mind, when Willis above mediated about the problems to slip into the mindset of the CTH type of folks out there. It feels you could help to verbalize all their prevarications, ?, rationalization. There was another word on my mind, but it escapes me now. You know the black on white crime and rape type of stuff.

        What a pity that David Mills/Undercover Black Man is not any longer among us. He was a screenwriter too. And beyond an enormous avarice for music his top interest was racism and black history. Spiritually at least I would love to add him to your team. I will never ever forget his brilliant story about the threat that the whites apparently felt when they heard black people drum.

      • leander22 says:

        I think Malisha, there are ways around the fact that Fogen’s scenario does not work out. Maybe some type of reenactment first. Maybe you leave it vague and foggy, and slightly add a little visual volume, but that is only from the top of my head. Maybe you even make it appear convincing and slowly destroy it? Just from the top of my head.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      I am thinking about this Willis. If you saw this documentary before Trayvon Martin was killed, you should watch it again.

      The Emmet Till murder became more meaningfull to me because of Trayvon Martin, not the other way around. When you watch people and events in a documentary, that take place in a time you are not familiar with, you experience it on a different level. It was then. Things were different. People were different.

      When I watched this documentary recently, I was struck by little things that are very familiar to the Trayvon Martin case, but the main event is so different. But those little things made what happened to Emmett Till, and the emotions it caused very real.

      The store, where Emmett Till allegedly whistled at the white woman, was described by another person as the store where kids would go to buy a drink and some candy.

      Emmett Till’s cousin attempting to describe the fear he felt as a 16 year old kid, when in total darkness he was faced by
      this white guy holding a flashlight in one hand and a gun in the other.

      The rants blaming the NAACP. I think Crump represents the NAACP.If you want to understand these irrational attacks on Crump, go listen those rants.

      The attacks on Mamie Till, Emmett’s mother. Listen to those again and you recognize them as the same attacks on Sabrina.

      If I could write, I think I would want to capture it more in the style of a movie like Magnolia. Parallel and intercut stories.

      • Xena says:

        @amsterdam. I was a child when Till was murdered, but had a curiosity because he was from Chicago where I was born and lived. It was not until I became an adult and talked with someone born and raised in Mississippi who was an adult when Till was murdered that I began to understand just how powerless Blacks were in the South.

        There appears to be the same attitude demonstrated by GZ’s supporters; i.e., that Trayvon’s parents had no power, no right, to challenge, demand, organize, and speak out. Everyone instrumental in making that possible, including attorney Crump, have been targeted by GZ supporters for destruction.

      • bettykath says:

        omg. The parallels!

        Wonderful idea. Maybe a blogger’s mother or one of the sidekicks recalling bits of the Emmit Till story as Trayvon’s story is told pointing out the similarities.

        Mm, hm. I remember that Emmit Till went into a store for a drink or some candy. They say he whistled at a white woman. So the white men killed him. Now this Trayvon, he went to the store for a drink and some candy. He didn’t whistle at a white woman. He was just walking home. So here we are, more than 55 years later, and another boy killed dead by a white man.

        • Xena says:

          The men who killed Emmit Till came to the home where he was staying, and removed him from that home. His grandparents could only look for him the next day, thinking he had become “strange fruit.”

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, this is so much like the Till case and it also reminds me of Rosewood Fl. in 1923. I never knew about Rosewood until I saw the movie. and the Till case, I read books about it and, I think it’s a shame that this is 2013 and, things like this are still going on in this country, be it the south or the north.

        I read a article about how three white teens and a 24 yr old killed two AA males and, then had three way sex on top of the bodies. this happened in Chicago either in Jan or Feb of this year. we have some very sick and evil people in this country.

        • Xena says:

          @ladystclaire. Several years ago, my son was listening to the Gap Band, and I mentioned how they came upon their name being the first letter from a three-way intersection in today’s Oklahoma City. It marks the location where a White race riot broke-out, destroying an entire way of life for Blacks and Cherokees. My son then researched Little Africa, also known as Black Wall Street. It’s American history that he did not know.

          If you don’t research it from a standpoint of seeing overcoming and strength, the truth might make you angry and/or depressed.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, the LE in Mississippi also attempted a cover up when, they tried to have his body buried there but, Mamie Till said NO and, they also sealed the box with the seal of that state on it with instructions not to open it. Mamie Till made the undertaker in Chicago open that box and, the decomposing smell could be smelled from several blocks away from the funeral home. they put lime on his body to mask the smell.

        Mamie Till inspected his body from head to toe and, when she was finished, it was then that she said the world needs to bear witness to this and, that is how the photo of Emmett lying in his coffin.

        Like Fogen, those two white men knew Emmett was also a child. he was fourteen and, Trayvon was 17 and so was Jordan Davis the victim of Michael Dunn. as I said, there are indeed some might sick people in this country.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, Yes she did, just like she insisted that the undertaker open that big ugly box that the state of Mississippi had put him in.

      • bettykath says:

        Ladystclaire, according to Emmit’s mother in the documentary, the undertaker refused b/c he was told not to. Her response was to ask him for a hammer. No one told HER she couldn’t open the casket so she did. Mrs. Till was one strong woman.

      • willisnewton says:

        Yes amsterdam, I need to watch it again. In a storytelling sense America has ONE story repeated over and over, and that is the one regarding race.

        Our greatest novel IMO is Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain, flawed as it is. Hemmingway, one of our best novelists agreed and said all American literature “comes from it.”

        Huck is the son of the town drunkard, an ignorant uneducated child but white, which puts him higher on the class ladder than “n-word Jim” who is the runaway slave who befriends him. Most of the book is about the hypocrisy of the ruling class and how an innocent child has more inherent logic and innate sense of justice than all the “kings and dukes” he meets.

        Most of what MOM is trying to sell the public is a bill of goods that a 12 year old boy like Huck would see thru in a heartbeat.

        Two million plus people took a casual look at the basic facts to the Trayvon Martin case and pushed for justice. I find that enormously encouraging for America as a nation. There may be hope for us yet.

        It’s not the extremists that I fear will take over the better nature of my country. It’s the ones who are duped by them that are the real danger. The men who murdered Emmet Till, like the man who killed Trayvon Martin felt they were protecting “the way things need to be.” They gained this sense of certainty not by connecting with their inner child by allowing themselves to be swayed by others around them who made a compelling case for hate over acceptance and exclusion and intolerance over simple warmth and openness, qualities that can be found in infancy.

      • leander22 says:


        I don’t know that. Looks interesting.

      • leander22 says:

        There appears to be the same attitude demonstrated by GZ’s supporters; i.e., that Trayvon’s parents had no power, no right, to challenge, demand, organize, and speak out.

        I will never forget a comment on Stately McManor’s (Mike McDaniels, if I recall correctly) blog by apparently a female in the comment section. She expressed outrage at the facts that the family actually hired a lawyer. Imagine that. I was absolutely stunned.

    • leander22 says:

      Willis, that was an important angle in Blow’s speech, what I rebelled against, apparently like others was the idea of “balance”. I think to a certain extend that is fiction. I read a really brilliant essay about a scholar in journalism about it, in the post 911 universe, where it obviously surfaced for many of us. Never mind the standard: facts are sacred while comment is free.

      Giving weight to some, selectivity just as what we call the pyramid system of news over here. The “most important” on top details further down were many have long stopped to read. This is just from the top of my head. Add to that coinages that slip in and that may well represent bias occasionally specifically used for their target audience. The NBC’s response or the short look at the media history and developments of the case, is quite interesting in this context. Look at the Fox news coinages they pick out.

      • leander22 says:

        about [it by] a

        I wish I had saved the link or at least would remember the name of whoever wrote it. Very good, expressed more brilliantly my feelings about it at the time than I ever could.

      • leander22 says:

        about it by an American scholar. So now I finally made it. Very inspiring conversation here today. 😉

  16. I don’t comment here much, or anywhere. However. this person’s account seems almost correct. The only problem I have is where GZ is following TM in the car. I believe that GZ followed TM slowly down RVC while was calling NEN. This is when TM tells DD he is being followed by GZ in his car. I say this because you can then see GZ headlights pull into the CH, less less than a minute later you hear TM say to GZ ‘do you have a problem’ as GZ is telling dispatch ‘just get an officer over hear’. At this point in the CCV tapes you can see TM whit tennis shoe pass the Front Door of the CH, you can then see GZ and hear on his call him pull out of the CH. While this is happening we can see TM white sneaker again passing the ‘East Pool Hall’ door. This is headed toward the mailboxes where he tells DD he is gonna wait. While TM is moving towards the mailboxes GZ is leaving the front of the CH AND NOW CHANGING HIS LOCATION. You then see GZ headlight move very slowly past the ‘East Pool Hall’ door. This would be while TM is standing at the mailboxes. This further freaks TM and as soon as GZ passes him and starts to go East on TTL after the first bend this is when GZ tells NEN ‘shit he’s running’.

    GZ was at the CH and TM walked past him. He moved to further his pursuit of TM and TM in an attempt to lose GZ ran back up to RVC. TM was never at the T prior to the deadly encounter at 7:16. This is all verified by GZ NEN call and the CH CCV footage. There is no doubt GZ stalked TM and put him in fear. But TM never walked down TTL going east towards the T.

    This is why when I went to Sanford and went to R@TL i walked the route I did. I walked from FT area to the CH, down to mailboxes and the cut back up to RVC and then cut between buildings 2 and 3 down to the T going south toward Brandy’s house. This is the MOST LIKELY path TM took based on GZ NEN call, the CCV tapes and DD’s account.

    • parrot says:

      “…you hear TM say to GZ ‘do you have a problem’ as GZ is telling dispatch ‘just get an officer over hear’…”

      Thank you for the uploads of hearings, and the hard work you have done to decipher those CH videos. I listened over and over to this part where GZ says “just get an officer over here,” but I do not hear anything but Sean and GZ speaking. Did you enhance the audio?

  17. Rachael says:

    Willis Newton had a very wonderful post, but it is all summed up in the last 2 lines:

    “When in doubt, George leaves it out.
    What George did, he blames on the kid.”

    That is my mantra from now until the trial. It is like with all that can be said, nothing more needs to.

    • willisnewton says:

      Dont forget the third leg of the tripod – many things are possible; what GZ claims happened is NOT possible.

      And thanks for the “attaboys”, everyone. So many cool people have contributed so much hard work and insight it’s just glad to be considered one of such a great group.

      • Rachael says:

        That is true. You never really know what is going to happen in a courtroom. It is made up of people, and as predictable as people are, they are totally unpredictable.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Rach, I think it’s important to remember that these are all imperfect people, too, on both sides . . .

      • Nef05 says:

        Really excellent post, Willisnewton.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Yes x 2!

    • Malisha says:

      “What George did, he blames on the kid.”

      That = “massive projection”

      Massive projection is psychopath behavior.

      • willisnewton says:

        exactly, Malisha. As usual, you have great insights.

        Not to get on a soapbox about handguns but a certain aspect of the mentality of concealed carriers seems to be the idea that they have an innate right to end the lives of others on a whim. That always seemed sociopathic at the outside and at least “awfully uncivil, old chum” if one is erring on the side of charity and caution.

      • leander22 says:

        the mentality of concealed carriers seems to be the idea that they have an innate right to end the lives of others on a whim

        Maybe not generally, but I like this comment anyway. You know what it triggers in my mind? His obsession with the question if people ever “had” to shoot somebody. So it must have been on his mind quite a bit.

        Massive protection and a huge amount of narcissism, the world has to circle around him. Just as Trayvon should have responded: “YESSIR what is it you require of me SIR?”

        I had no time to reflect, look I had to go through all the trouble being locked up in jail and all that. Don’t ask me about something as stupid as that, I had troubles of my own, can’t you see? …

        Explain to me, why I could possibly be unable to perceive a development arc in Shellie’s character? Maybe because she choose the man she did, maybe since I came away listening to her prison calls, and was left with the impression she has a very superficial character. I can’t explain, her glee about the money. Maybe that did it for me.

        Can you imagine your favorite actress in Shellie’s part in the prison calls?

      • leander22 says:

        Oh something else, concerning the little we can rely on, the prison calls. Tried this before, and it was shorter. 😉

        She seemed rather pleased that George let her into the handling of paypal transfers. Why did he not talk with her about these matters, before he went to police? Obviously he had not planned to let her deal with these money matters, someone else was supposed to handle that. This suggests to me a classic husband wife relation, not a partnership and trust. That may be the reason why I do not expect independent moves from her side. Notice he even had to order his sister to control her. He didn’t even trust she could keep in mind a password, or keep it somewhere. Does that suggest trust to you or more a child parent relation, or if you like, the classic husband wife relations from the fifties of the last century.

  18. Regarding fogen’s car – based on his jailhouse calls, he had tinted windows in his truck. So imagine someone following you in a car in tinted windows….darn right Trayvon ran when he got close enough to an area where there was no roadway. I still think he took a circuitous path because gz was too close behind him for him to have gone anywhere down the dogwalk…I don’t think Trayvon would have hid in anyone’s back yard becasue who knows who would have jumped out and thought he was a thief or criminal.

    • Rachael says:

      No kidding. Think about it. If you were in a somewhat unfamiliar area and someone with tinted windows followed you in their car and then got out and followed you on foot…It really isn’t rocket science you know.

      How can anyone with half a brain not understand this?

      • Fogen created a situation that was hostile and then he cries foul when he stalks Trayvon, assaults Trayvon and then refuses to ID himself and your mad that Trayvon punched you (still no proof to me he did but just saying)??? This guy is a piece of work and I hope the jury can understand what they are seeing – a calculating, manipulative liar who REFUSES to be responsible for his actions or show any human regard for Trayvon and the position he put him in…Trayvon ran and Fogen kept coming so after Flight, he had no other choice but to fight (maybe)!

      • Rachael says:

        It continues to be perpetuated by his entire team – not paying for security services, blaming the prosecution because they went ahead and hired people to videotape without discussing it, Jr opening his mouth – it goes on and on and it is right out there for everyone to see!

      • Malisha says:

        Rachael, they DO understand it. But they actually believe that Blacks are not entitled to behave normally and react normally to threats, improper behavior, etc. They actually believe that Blacks should ALWAYS presume that whites are respectable and authoritative and they should ALWAYS presume themselves to be somehow in the wrong when dealing with whites. They really DO BELIEVE THIS; I have SEEN it! The dumbest thing is that they do not even recognize it as crazy. Remember Taaffe and Lee both saying Trayvon should have simply answered Fogen’s questions respectfully and he wouldn’t have been killed? A guy stalks you and comes up on you and he’s in your face and you’re supposed to fall into line and say, essentially, “YESSIR what is it you require of me SIR?”

  19. Tzar says:


  20. KittySP says:

    *applause*…*cheers*…Willis Newton is on FIRE!!!

  21. parrot says:

    If you are not a trial attorney, you missed your calling…

    • willisnewton says:

      Thanks, but being a lawyer? (insert disparaging lawyer joke here)

      I’d rather play one on TV…. lol. And I’d probably rather be a sacrificial “heroes of Fukashima” nuclear disaster cleanup worker than a certain defense attorney on this case. Better chance of coming out clean when the job is done.

      Actually I am, in addition to a cameraman, also a motion picture screenwriter, and proud union man, WGAwest.

      Looking at this case from the perspective of characters in a fictional story helps me to imagine the various viewpoints of all the players. Everyone has a motive and a backstory that informs their actions. If you walk a mile in their shoes and keep things in the order of a timeline so you know who knew what facts and when they knew them, it’s a good way to see the story in sharp relief.

      This whole sage might make a heck of a movie someday. Oddly however, I have no desire to write it just yet even though I am following it like a true crime “trial of the century” and spend entirely too much time and effort doing so. Maybe if GZ manages to walk…. or runs from justice in a white Bronco… then it would get “cinematic.” Right now it’s a unexciting who-dunnit with some sideshow action by the defense team.

      I think Chris Serino would be played by James Gandolfini of SOPRANOS fame, and he and maybe Dee Dee would be the leads. There are a lot of ways one could go with her casting….
      but I could see using Serino as the hub of the wheel that has many spokes, story-wise. So far he’s the most enigmatic character and possibly the one with an “arc” to his development. Maybe Shellie will have an “arc,” too. The dramatist in me hopes so…. although her constant threat of rolling over on hubby is what keeps the story in suspense. More entertaining f she threatens it but doesn’t in the end go thru, so we can have our “Perry Mason moment” at the end happen in the courtroom, where the defendant breaks down emotionally and confesses his crime, lol. Not gonna happen here but one can hope….

      • Rachael says:

        You are an amazing man!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I write fiction myself, but I gotta hand it to a screenwriter – you guys are tops in analyzing story! I always tell new and emerging fiction writers to try to “think like a screenwriter!”

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        It captured the nation’s attention. How about adding the new media angle to it. You’ve been intimately involved in that part of the equation. The cell phones, gps records, doxing, that and the new media will give it its 21st century face.

      • willisnewton says:

        Well, amsterdam… who do you want to play you? lol. I’m thinking catherine keener – gorgeous, sharp wit, take-no-prisoners attitude…

      • Cercando Luce says:

        LOL on “her constant threat of rolling over on hubby” double meaning.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I can live with that😉.
        All kidding aside, if I had the abillity to write a movie script, that’s the script I would write. It is an individual drama, but it conjures up images and vibes from the civil rights era, but now the movement takes place in a virtual place. That is one side of the story.
        By the way, I recently watched a documentary about the murder on Emmet Till. Much has changed, but so much has stayed the same. If you haven’t seen it yet, check it out. It was shocking to see the price the AA people had to pay for having the guts to stand up and testify.
        Nothing makes me angrier than seeing DD being attacked.
        That could be another approach for your script, then and now.

        Another aspect is the internet sleuthing and the impact of blogs on the case it self. We are living in an era equally as transformative as the era of invention of the printing press.

      • Xena says:

        You know that the clubhouse videos amaze me. From the time that the State entered them into discovery, I said they have a reason. I still say that at one point, we can see GZ’s truck slowly passing the mail shed just after a shadow passes it.

      • parrot says:

        The interpretation of the videos, the texts, voice messages and call records is going to be riveting.

        • Xena says:


          The interpretation of the videos, the texts, voice messages and call records is going to be riveting.

          I believe it. Now, the State also entered the M&I Bank video in discovery. The most that people have figured out is that the man on the video at 6:38 p.m. might be Osterman. IMO, the State would not have sought out that video without something else leading them to it — like maybe a phone call or text message from Osterman to GZ reporting seeing Trayvon walking into the R@TL.

          If that is true, then it provides evidence that GZ did not leave his home to go grocery shopping.

          There is something there. The State knows. I anxiously await trial.

      • Malisha says:

        WillisNewton, here’s a quotation from a federal public defender (they’re among the best of the criminal defense lawyers in my opinion):

        “We, as criminal defense lawyers, are forced to deal with some of the lowest people on earth, people who have no sense of right and wrong, people who will lie in court to get what they want, people who do not care who gets hurt in the process. It is our job – our sworn duty – as criminal defense lawyers, to protect our clients from those people.” :mrgreen:

        Cynthia Rosenberry
        Attorney at Law
        National Association of
        Criminal Defense Lawyers

      • bettykath says:

        amsterdam, thanks for the emmett till link.

      • nocamo33 says:

        LOLOL to Malisha’s Atty quote. Very good. Classy.

        Thanks also to amsterdam for the documentary…so ironic, American Experience.

      • willisnewton…..Incredible post! The thought of fogen making a “run for it”….hmmmm….has anyone noticed that fogenbro appears to have gained a bit of weight?…and that he and fogen seem to have the same hair style? Has anyone seen current photos of fogen lately, since he hasn’t been in court…..just wondering if he has lost any weight sot that he and fogenbro just might meet (in weight) somewhere in the middle and end up being the same weight. I know that this seems improbable but, when it comes to fogen, I wouldn’t put anything past him….even if it does seem far fetched.

    • SearchingMind says:

      @ Willisnewton and Parrot

      Willisnewton, pls. do not listen to Parrot :). You don’t want to be a lawyer. Lawyers are professional daily trouble makers. They are always stressed out, burdened with the pain and sorrows of others (their clients) and constantly at war in their minds. Being a lawyer is very attractive to those who are not one. They who practice law in defense of the individual against the State, his fellow men and/or organized legal entities (quasi-governments, I call them) sometimes curse the day they took the oath. At least once a month, the lawyer goes home very angry, demoralized, questioning life and everything he grew up believing in. The lawyer gets to see how messed-up, miserable and unfair life actually is. That isn’t precisely a condition for long, happy life. It’s a prestigious profession. But believe you me: truck drivers (no disrespect meant) are much more happier than lawyers. Knowledge indeed brings sadness and unhappiness (Proverbs …). That much summarizes the life of a true lawyer – regardless of how much money he makes.

      • parrot says:

        I know, SearchingMind. That can be said of some criminal law lawyers.

        Not all, though.

        Public service lawyers, on the other hand, are a different breed. I have been privileged to work extensively for years with one of the most prominent in the area of migrant workers’ rights. For him and those who work with him, I have only the deepest respect and admiration.

      • Amen, brother.

        That is a succinct and true description of a trial lawyer’s life and that is why I finally decided that I had enough, closed my shop, and walked away.

        At the end, I was mostly representing clients potentially facing the death penalty and that exposed me to a whole new set of severe stressors.

        Although I am self-confident and rather arrogant at times, I am not so proud that I cannot admit that the pressure and stress that I experienced from trying to understand, humanize and save the lives of people regarded as demons finally overwhelmed and broke me.

        It’s the age old conflict that you must become emotionally invested in saving your client’s life to be effective, but you also have to be able to detach from your emotions in order to make rational decisions with real life or death consequences.

        Eventually, I’ll share bits and pieces of my story as the spirit moves me.

        • Prof…….I’ve mentioned before that my oldest son is an attorney..
          His original ambition was to go to work for the FBI….a 40% hearing loss is his left ear kept him from that…….He now does child custody cases in support of the kids…….

      • nocamo33 says:

        But they grapple daily with truth…. Can there be a greater calling?

  22. bettykath says:

    Right. When in doubt, fogen leaves it out. What fogen did he blames on the kid.

    Question regarding defense witness list. As I understand it, witnesses are not allowed in the courtroom until after they have testified. Could it be that Trayvon’s family members are all listed as defense witnesses more to keep them out of the courtroom than for what they can testify to?

    • Yes, but don’t forget that the prosecution will call Sybrina and Tracy.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Hopefully early on so that they can view as much of the trial as they desire.

      • bettykath says:

        So the defense expects that it will be unable to do an effective cross examination and the witnesses must remain out of the courtroom until called (or not) by the defense.

      • nocamo33 says:

        Interesting. I never knew that. I would think Trayvon’s folks would have a right to be there no matter what.

    • looneydoone says:

      re; O’Mara’s witness list
      He has absolutely not intention of calling on Gladys Zimmermann to testify. It’s a tactic he’s employing to keep her face away from the camera, and out of the public’s eye. * Watch* her interview with Jorge Ramos/Univision very closely to understand why

      • OMG I want to see that. You got a link?

      • looneydoone says:

        Leroy,the camera
        Gladys Zimmermann begins the interview by stating she’s been forbidden by her husband and doctors from reading and/or viewing anything in the media about this case.
        Then she launches into an enraged diatribe, stiff with anger and spitting the words out as she describes the “savage beating” georg was subjected to, as the color “bloody head” photos prove. She calls atty Crump a liar, and posits that President Obama was duped by the liberal media when he was “made to think” Trayvon was the aggressor. blah, blah, blah.
        She says to Jorge Ramos “my roots are not with the non-Hispanic whites” ( we who speak Spanish can clear through that to mean *my roots are with white Hispanics, *) Lastly, the camera does a quick scan that shows her legs…she is very, very *white*

      • Jun says:

        Yes, she is so credible

        They are white, then latino, then Afro-Peruvian (gimme a break)

        Yes Fogen had a couple cuts that were superficial and tiny, but it does not necessarily mean they were caused by Trayvon either

        Do they seriously think Fogen is the first jerkoff to go to court by faking injuries?

        Generally faked and staged injuries are for self defense claims and insurance claims

        And even though the minor injuries were not caused by Trayvon, how the hell does she know that what happened to Fogen was not an act of self defense? Fogen went after an unarmed kid with a gun and a flashlight and a car. Sounds fairly reasonable to defend yourself from such a person.

        It’s like Bill Maher said… they were not there, and they can’t be objective

    • nocamo33 says:

      What does “fogen” mean?

      • bettykath says:

        It’s a shortened version of he-whose-name-shall-be-forgotten.

        • nocamo33 says:

          AHA!!!! Now I am really glad I discovered my “notifications” button!!! Thanks! I was wondering if anyone got back to me on that one. Maybe we should call him the Unfogiven? Okay. I will stop now. 🙂

    • Trained Observer says:

      Yet, if this trial is televised as we anticipate, can’t Trayvon’s parents watch equivalent of the early daily rushes prior to their testimony, if any, via DVR recordings? Or will the court specifically instruct all witnesses that that’s a no-no?

    • leander22 says:

      Didn’t know that either, but it makes sense. They clearly have a problem to deal with the family, that’s why they focus on Crump and DeeDee.

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