Featuring: Willis Newton regarding Zimmerman and the good-cop good-cop interview technique

Monday, March 25, 2013

Willis Newton posted an excellent comment at 11:37 pm last night on the open thread regarding the defendant and the good-cop good-cop interview technique.

The only correction that I feel a need to point out is that a criminal defense lawyer would have advised the defendant to shut his mouth. There are no exceptions to that rule.

This full-of-himself intellectually challenged defendant caused irreparable damage to his case when he decided that he could talk his way out of being charged with killing Trayvon Martin. Once he got going, he could not stop and the pièce de résistance was the Shawn Hannity interview.

State’s Attorney Angela Corey and Assistant State’s Attorney Bernie de la Rionda did the right thing when they declined to talk to the defendant as they are ethically prohibited from talking to a defendant represented by counsel, even if the defendant initiates the contact.

George was handled by Serino and Singleton of the SPD in a manner I’d call “good cop/ good cop.” Both tried to be amicable and played to his vanity and let him think they were his “buddies.” This was not because they believed him, it was because this attitude kept George “cooperating” by continuing to make multiple statements without a lawyer present, after being advised of his right to refuse to answer any questions without a lawyer present.

Let me just say this now – anyone, ESPECIALLY innocent people, but anyone, anyone is a fool if you let the cops question you without a lawyer present. They are NOT your friends, no matter how many times they let you go to the bathroom or buy you a cola from a vending machine. They are doing their job, which is to get you to talk yourself into a criminal conviction.

George bought the routine hook line and sinker. He was a fool for giving so many statements, as it became very cleat quickly that he was pushing a false narrative and telling a story that was fraught with inconsistencies, critical omissions and clear contradictions.

One thing he was tricked with was the “voice stress test,” which is a useless and pointless exercise that proves NOTHING and is never admissible in a court of law. George agreed to the test because he thought the cops were believing his lies, and his ego told him that he could and should “talk his way out of this one” since the cops were seemingly sympathetic to his plight. The real and true purpose of the voice stress test was to get George to run through his whole (false) narrative one more time with as little interruption as possible. The “test taker” was simply a new interrogator, but one whose job it was to feign disinterest as he asked George “on background” to relate his tale so the test taker could “set up the voice stress machine.”

Notice that “as they waited for the tester” the cops also let GZ sit around for a long quiet period with detective Singleton. This too is a deliberate session of evidence-gathering that detectives use on a regular basis – put the guy at ease but do anything to keep him from calling a lawyer -just keep him making statements.

She’s being mostly quiet so that he will KEEP talking to fill the uncomfortable silence. It’s here that he made the telling remarks about how “suspects” need to respond to “authority” but that he thinks Singleton “doesn’t have to worry” about that since she has such a commanding presence, or whatever it is that he says exactly. I’m paraphrasing a bit here, but it was a telling moment and I predict will be shown to the jury as part of the overall portrait the prosecution is going to paint to color him as a wanna-be authority figure who had no legal right to profile and pursue a teen to the point where the child fled in terror, and then for GZ to leave his vehicle with a loaded weapon and continue on foot after him into the proverbial “dark alley.”

Whatever the reason the police let him go home that first night, Serino made certain that GZ was going to “keep cooperating.” Letting him go home was a gamble, but one that paid off well since the next day GZ cooperated AGAIN without having a lawyer present and did a “re-eneactment” for the detectives that was less than credible, and again made for several very telling moments that could be presented to a jury to show his lack of credibility at the least. George told provable lies about where he pulled over his car and how his car ended up near the cut thru when he got out of it and started following the teen. Then he massively contradicted his many earlier accounts when he suddenly added the “I must have stumbled” portion of the account of the “first punch” that may or may not have even happened. Each time he’d previously spoke of this alleged blow to his face, he described things like falling backwards, and how he was knocked IMMEDIATELY to the ground before “Trayvon mounted him” as George alleges the teen did. Suddenly George has to insert a 40 foot “stumble” right in the middle of where he wished he could again claim he was knocked to the ground where he stood.

Keep in mind if George had waited for his lawyer to be present, the lawyer would likely advise him to make ONE statement that was carefully crafted and then to refuse to cooperate any further. I’m not certain about this but imagine if GZ had called a lawyer and kept his mouth mostly shut. He may have spent a few nights in jail, but it would be more difficult to impeach his credibility, a key component of his upcoming murder trial. He may have even avoided a trial altogether. His own words are what is going to sink his ship.

After the “re-enactment” the detectives confronted him about his inconsistencies in the harshest session of questioning, but as you listen to the recording keep in mind they are careful to frame their disbelief and harsh questions by mentioning the need for George to “keep his story straight for later” essentially as if what was happening contemporaneously was his “cop buddies” leading him down the path to freedom and insider treatment. They don’t QUITE pull off the whole ruse of buddy-buddy, partially because his lies are too difficult to swallow but also because George is so suspicious and guarded in his words. But the detectives still act as though “this is all just so we can set the record straight” and that George is “gonna be fine probably” etc.

Never do the SPD detectives posture that they are “holding him for questioning.” It’s always that they are “allowing him to make a statement,” or some such polite way of putting things, as though his cooperation is helping them seal the fate of the dead “suspect” who “attacked” him. This is how “good cop/ good cop” works.

Someone in the SPD made the call that George “should be handled with kid gloves” and also let go to sleep in his own bed. It was a pragmatic decision since at the beginning the detectives saw they lacked a good witness to the events from start to finish and that GZ killed the only other person who they thought heard the start of the fight. Keep in mind they had yet to learn that TM was on the phone at the time the fight started.

The fact that George kept in touch with Serino while he was out and not facing a grand jury or criminal charges is a sign that Serino had gained some measure of his trust. Before GZ called Angela Corey he also had been speaking with Serino. I am guessing its likely GZ asked Serino something obsequious like “do you think it might be a good idea if I were to call the state’s attorney and let them know (what a good boy I am) etc?” Serino knew he was pretty much off the case by then but tried to keep the “good cop” ruse going.

Recall the two clown lawyers who weren’t really his lawyers? I also am guessing one of both of them, idiots that they were, knew enough to try to advise George of the folly of trying to consider Angela Corey his new buddy. Whatever the timing and whomever was advising George, he didn’t get his chance to cozy up to the special prosecutor because the state wisely refused to see him at all until he retained a lawyer. He called Corey but she wouldn’t take that call IIRC.

So in answer to the question, “what was he thinking when he tried to see Corey?” I’d say the guess is probably right that he still felt like he could talk his way out the jam he was in. (SO far, so good, he felt.) He’d killed the only real witness to his car-to-pedestrian chase and was fairly sure no one saw how the physical altercation began. Somehow he’d gotten the lucky break of having someone, Shellie probably, move his car away before it could be searched or its location noted. (which way was it facing? He could be lying about that but we don’t know, and we may never know.)

His arrogance is staggering, but his gullibility is as well. IMO Serino did a good job of “handling” George. He may have made other mistakes but in this regard his strategy was a wise one. And the special prosecutor made the wise call that despite George possibly being willing to come make more “statements” that he’s been given enough rope to hang himself with already. They knew the statements he’d given the SPD and they felt they had enough already to paint him as the two-bit liar that he is.

If Serino ever gets a book deal, I’ll buy his book. He’d got things to answer for, but keep in mind he looked into GZ’s eyes and read his body language, heard his story, walked the grounds with him and then looked again into his eyes as George was confronted with the NEN call recording and several of his contradictory statements. If anyone in the world knows whether or not to believe GZ it’s detective Chris Serino, who wanted to charge him with murder and was willing to settle for manslaughter but NEVER felt GZ was in the clear.

126 Responses to Featuring: Willis Newton regarding Zimmerman and the good-cop good-cop interview technique

  1. Animaljunkie says:

    I must admit, I didn’t understand Serino’s strange statements to the defendant i.e. as if Serino was helping him get away with murder, but now that you’ve explained the ‘good cop/bad cop’ ploy and the extent/depth such manipulates the perpetrator, it’s ALL become perfectly clear to me!

    Thank you for clearing that question up for THIS layperson 🙂

  2. Stormwatch says:

    One more comment if I may. After his arrest, Mr. Zimmerman received a lot of support from conservative republican talk radio and FOX news. The prosecutor who told detectives that he did not want Zimmerman charged (Mr. Jim Carter) also happens to be from a very politically connected family of conservative republicans. His father-in-law is E. Clay Shaw and when you look at the family Facebook pages, it’s obvious that they’re big Paul Ryan fans. There’s nothing wrong with being politically involved. It should be encouraged. But it appears as though Mr. Carter made up his mind pretty quick not to wanna charge Zimmerman. Was he already biased against Trayvon right from the start?

  3. Stormwatch says:

    Obviously the two situations were unrelated.. but I also suspect that everything Jim Carter may have been going through in his personal life the night of and just after the Trayvon shooting could have some bearing on his decision making process with respect to that shooting. Was he so busy dealing with the fact that the Florida Highway Patrol and FDLE considered his 19 year old daughter the main suspect in a double DUI manslaughter that his decision making process may have been altered. I would imagine that when you are a state attorney who has prosecuted many DUI’s, it’s gotta be disturbing when FHP and FDLE consider your teenage daughter the main suspect in a double DUI manslaughter. He had to have known that it was only a matter of time until authorities nailed it down and issued a warrant.

    It’s also interesting to note the way Zimmerman was treated with kid gloves as well as the way Mr. Carter’s daughter Rita is being treated with kid gloves with respect to what she’s accused of. Never has a defendant in a double DUI manslaughter case been treated so well. It’s disturbing.

  4. Stormwatch says:

    I’ve been following this blog for quite some time and I am most appreciative of Mr. Leatherman and the other folks who comment. I have learned so much. I have a little tid bit to add.

    Jim Carter was the assistant state attorney in Seminole County who allegedly was one of the folks who did not want Zimmerman charged. My question is whether there was other stuff going on in Jim Carter’s life at that time that clouded his judgment. Allow me to elaborate a bit.

    On October 11, 2011, at 4:30 am, there was a hit and run double DUI fatality on I-4 in DeLand. Florida. Shortly after the accident, the 19 year old daughter of Mr. Carter was found about 5 miles from the scene in her mom’s damaged 2007 Ford Explorer. It took Florida Highway Patrol and FDLE 17 months to make an arrest. On March 11, 2013, Ms. Carter was charged in Volusia County with 2 counts of DUI manslaughter and one count of leaving the scene of an accident involving a death(s). Not good when your dad is the assistant state attorney for the county that neighbors the county where the accident occurred. Her grandfather is former congressman E. Clay Shaw.

    To say that Ms. Carter is receiving preferential treatment concerning the investigation and her arrest would be an understatement.

    I cannot help but wonder if the fact that his 19 year old daughter was the main suspect in a double DUI manslaughter 4 months before the Trayvon Martin shooting in any way clouded his judgment when making decisions about whether to charge Zimmerman. It was not common knowledge that Ms. carter was the main suspect. FHP purposely withheld her name for almost a year and a half. But her daddy sure knew.

    One of the people killed in that accident was a very close friend of mine. As such, I have done a tremendous amount of research on Ms. Carter and her dad. These are not good people. They have a good ole boy mentality

    I believe that between what was going on with Jim Carter’s daughter, combined with his good ole boy mentality, resulted in poor decision making with respect to the Trayvon Martin case.

    • onlyiamunitron says:

      My sympathies on the loss of your friend, but perhaps they took 17 months to make damned sure they had an airtight case, considering to whom the young lady is related.


    • Malisha says:

      Wow. It does show how a situation that one would imagine was totally unrelated to another situation can possibly have some effect, and even can possibly have a determinative effect. Recently I was made aware of a weird “coincidence-like thing” like that.

      The Broadway play “Caroline, or Change” was playing in NY at the time of the Republican Convention, which took place in New York; Starring Tonya Pinkins, written by Tony Kushner, it was playing to full houses and had a cool million in the bank when it suddenly closed for no reason. There had been something like 6 Tony nominations and there was a Tony award (Anika Noni Rose) as well. WTF?

      The Republicans had put the show on its “NO-SEE” list, advising all at the convention to NOT SEE that show while they were in town. The producers apparently used that as evidence that the show would ultimately fail, financially (it dealt with issues of segregation, discrimination, civil rights, and the JFK assassination), and they closed and went home. Thereafter the show succeeded in London’s West End and all over the country in repertory theaters; it closed to rave reviews because of a non-event that should have had no effect. Who are Republican politicians to trump theater critics about theater?

      I say this to illustrate the point that whereas I do not feel SURE that this DUI case had an effect in the Trayvon Martin murder case, it is not impossible. I am going to think about this.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “The producers apparently used that as evidence that the show would ultimately fail, financially…”

        Then the producers are idiots because any showman with a brain in his head is going to take out very large ads billing it as “The Show The Republicans Don’t Want You To See!!!”

        Forbidden fruit always sells faster than the regular kind.

        Especially if you imply an upcoming shortage.

        “See it now while you’re still allowed to!!!”

        Massive PR FAIL!


    • fauxmccoy says:


      first, i am sorry to hear of the loss of your friend, i suspect most of us know how difficult that can be with the best of circumstances.

      secondly, thanks for dropping in and sharing the information you have.

  5. Jun says:

    IMO, Fogen was damned if talked and damned if he did not talk, after killing the kid

    Fogen talked to try to explain it all away but at the end of the day, he still had to explain away the NEN phone call to police because it established motive and lynchpins him on credibility because Fogen or his lawyer would have to explain away the NEN phonecall

    Then, he would have to explain away the witnesses and the forensics because it was obvious by Fogen’s hilarious phony and minor attack injuries, that that was the basis for his claims of SYG

    The 911 call witness 11 makes also makes his claims suspicious

    I think what worked against the arrest personally is that Norm Wolfinger has a connection to Fogen’s dad, and under law enforcement investigation rules, he should have called himself off the case and gotten Bill Lee off the case too, considering they could not be objective

    The Mayor heard the 911 scream tape and was immediately disgusted and could tell it was a child screaming for help

    • Dennis says:

      Fogen’s call to police well establishes his motive.

      “These fill-in-the-blank always get away!”

      This can be translated as so:

      “I’m going to get my gun and pursue this person because the police will never catch this suspicious person who I predetermined was a criminal because he is black and wearing a hooded sweatshirt.”

    • Dennis says:

      Since Trayvon was not doing anything suspicious (ex. talking on the phone to his girlfriend) I am convinced Fogen is racist. He is racist because he did not think Trayvon belonged there because of his skin color and attire.

      Fogen wants us to believe he is an intelligent person with a photographic memory that can remember every African-American and their children who live in that complex.

      Geraldo Rivera: “Trayvon Martin’s ‘Hoodie Is As Much Responsible For [His] Death As George Zimmerman”

      That is so insulting to the Martin family and anyone who enjoys wearing a hoodie. Even parents wear hoodies. If you go to a college football game in the cold, you are going to be wearing a hoodie. Insulting the victim by saying he was shot because of his attire is just sickening.

      Bill O’Reilly ran him on an interview and made Geraldo look like the racist fool he is.

  6. Nellie Nell says:

    I unfortunately watch the taped interview again today since it was posted in this thread – a video that I have watched a dozen or so times over and each time I have been able to pick up on something that I missed the 1st ten times that I have watched. This time I have noticed that the murderer says that his “jacket slid up as we were wrestling” which is certainly different that what he said as he 1st described. Being beat about the head, head being banged and being smothered would hard classify as “wrestling”. If it is just a “wrestle” is it really necessary to shoot someone in the chest? We know that all of this could not have been going on at the same time as the kid only had 2 hands. To bang a head (with no hair) would require both hands to grab onto. No one bangs a head like that. If you are already on the ground, one would not need to mount you just to bang your head when they could just use their foot and full body weight to just stomp your head into the ground. I have never heard of a fight between two people where one tries to smother the other. This usually happens when the person that is doing something to their victim that they want kept secret. If this kid ran when you were chasing him, once he knocked you to the ground, I would think that he’d take off running again?

    This idiot is really sick in the head, no one can tell that many lies and expect people to believe them unless they are sick in the head. He makes things up as he goes along which is pretty clear. I am truly convinced that this entire family lacks morals and have mental challenges. Otherwise, if you are defending a murdering relative while proclaiming to not be racists, you do not go on the internet talking bad about all Black people for the world to see. The two 2’s are not adding up to 4!!! These people have mental issues and the Jr idiot makes that very clear. I just can not understand why they think they have the power to manipulate peoples minds to see things their way.

    The article was a great piece of work and looking at the “good cop/good cop” scenario makes me feel much better. I thought that Singleton was doing a great job of pointing out the changing stories but was a bit annoyed that everytime she would, Serino seemed to jump in there and change the subject which would then be dropped by Singleton.

    • Bahama Mama says:

      gz’s entire defense relies on Trayvon coming across as a “thug”, he must embellish the episode to strengthen his defense.
      I’ve noticed the zidiots that defend gz always fall back on the “thug circled back and assaulted” theory, even though all the evidence has Trayvon continuing to go AWAY from gz, not towards.
      Jr’s latest tweets are designed with that theory in mind, it just makes them seem desperate, IMO.

      • Jun says:

        I do not think the race thing really works in this day and age because most people are not stupid (at least I hope)

        Susan Smith tried the same tactic in 1995 and tried to frame the black guys, and then investigation uncovered that she was the perp and the one that killed her kids

        Framing people has been a part of criminality since the finding of modern day America

        Another good movie to watch is Once Upon A Time In China & America, and although it is fiction, it shows a story of where some bandits tried to frame the Chinese and get them hung, while making off with money from a robbery

        That movie showcases a tactic used in the wild west days, used to portray blacks, as back then it was the Yellow Peril

        Only truly ignorant people fall for that mess

      • Bahama Mama says:

        I’d like to believe the “race thing” doesn’t really work these days too.
        Sadly, “only truly ignorant people” are the real supporters of gz. They exist, and they are vicious, obnoxious, racists, and I debate/argue with them almost daily, over on newsvine.
        Trust me they are out there and they cling to the idea that Trayvon was a “thug” and gz did the world a service. 😦

  7. colin black says:

    onlyiamunitron says:

    March 25, 2013 at 11:00 am

    Figures that the word I hit with both the bold and the italics tags would be the one I misspelled.


    (who really wishes WordPress had a preview feature, the way good comment handling software does)
    So whats a miss spelled word or definition amongst freinds,

    For instance my use of the word flaunt the rules instead of flaut as you pointed out I was miss useing it in the same manner as J Lester.
    Wich to me is a compliment to think I could be in the mistaken company of a judge.

    Flaunt or flout is not what we are about neither are we typo or spelling mistakes pointer outers lanquage is flexible an malable.
    Words are often different sptllings State side as to UK .
    Color or Colour.
    Spelling evolves also gaol became jail.

    Dont diss the host for the lack of amenities in his home thats rude.
    ie the lack of a preview.
    A bad workman always blame his tools.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @ colin

      amen buddy!

      it is fair also to note that you have told us you are dyslexic. my brother is dyslexic, my daughter has a similar learning disability. i have never had any difficulty understanding your intent.

      to point out any type of communication error in such a situation is ugly. i see no difference between doing that and making fun of the disabled. (i think of mitt romney deliberately letting a blind-ish professor walk into a glass door. it is cruel.)

    • Rachael says:

      @ Colin: “For instance my use of the word flaunt the rules instead of flaut as you pointed out I was miss useing it in the same manner as J Lester.
      Wich to me is a compliment to think I could be in the mistaken company of a judge:

      Don’t feel bad – HP misspelled it too. Judge Lester actually spelled and used it correctly, but HP misspelled it. Like you said, it doesn’t matter here – but a newspaper? Well that’s a bit of a different thing.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “Judge Lester actually spelled and used it correctly…”

        Judge Lester spelled “flaunted” correctly, but the word he wanted there was “flouted”.

        When that was pointed out to his office they changed it, but not to “flouted”. As best I remember, they changed it to “flauted”, which, if it is a word, would be an anachronism for having played the flute.

        Eventually they got it corrected to “flouted”.


      • Jun says:

        Actually, you are incorrect, flaunt can be used as in “flaunted the rules”

        which would mean

        “displayed the rules pretentiously”

        pre·ten·tious (pr-tnshs)
        1. Claiming or demanding a position of distinction or merit, especially when unjustified.

        Only grammar Nazi’s make the big deal about it when they are incorrect

        Also take into account that words change meaning

        Moot means something entirely different in the US then in the original usage

    • Malisha says:

      Wich to me is a compliment to think I could be in the mistaken company of a judge.

      Don’t take that compliment, Unitron! (You know what I think of judges in general, right?) 😆

  8. I can tell Singleton was a little unnerved when GZ asked “have you ever had to shoot someone”? She said no and GZ responded in the most patronizing manner “good for you”. But I also think it was a lost opportunity to quiz him on how he feels about having to shoot someone.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Listening to that segment is disgusting, and I don’t see how Singleton kept from barfing at some of his jive.

    • I recall him giving a little sob after he said, “good for you.” Then he squeezed out a few crocodile tears in a transparent effort to get her to feel sorry for him.

      I think she was disgusted.

    • Rachael says:

      “Good for you.” WTF is that supposed to mean anyway?

      • Malisha says:

        Rachael, it means:

        GOOD FOR YOU that you were able to present yourself as someone so imposing, so superior and so dangerous that none of these low-life types ever challenged your authority, because they immediately realized you would blow them away in a split second if they did. So you’re THE MAN and I am complimenting you so you’ll tell your bosses that I should get my gun back and be allowed to go rid the world of some more dangerous Bpa-lack kids who don’t see fit to give US (cause you and me, we’re the same) our props.

  9. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Now, if you


    You can find the COMPLETE transcript of Part 3 Audio of Serino/Singleton interview with gz on February 29, 2012 WITH the excerpts from both gz’s NEN call and W11′s 911 call that Serino played back to gz.
    Just so that you know, I started with transcripts that I found on the internet, and then I checked to see that they were correct and edited where needed.
    Afterwards, I inserted the excerpts from both gz’s NEN call and W11’s 911 call which Serino played back to gz.

  10. ay2z says:

    Thanks, good explanation, always thought Serino was treading carefully as he slipped a couple times and reversed the slips quickly to stay onside. Singleton, on the other hand, a woman and sidekick, got a couple of hard hitting observations about contradictions fogen made to her in her original interview. It may have been fortunate that Singleton was on call that night, to do the interview, not for fogen I’m sure, though he may have thought so.

    One small point of correction, I believe that the re-enactment was done on the 27th of February, please correct me if I’m wrong. They picked fogen up at his home about 5:20 PM, did the video re-enactment and followed that directly with the voice stress test at the station, time stamped 2/27/2012.

    Serino did not let him go back home that night to sleep in his bed between the interviews. The killer (as we know now, and I’m sure the police knew then) would have gone and slept in the Osterman’s guest bed with his wife, and as Osterman was at the re-enactment with fogen, they could have easily discussed more details, practiced, if you will.

    Serino and SGt Smith and Singleton, allowed no time for that.

    • ay2z says:

      Vice stress test video started before 6:30 pm.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “Vice stress test video started before 6:30 pm.”

        Actually a vice stress test sounds like it might be a lot of fun.

        Certainly more so than the treadmill they had me on a few years ago.

        : – )

        (a vise test on the other hand….)


      • ay2z says:

        Fun? The stress test probably was seen as a walk in the park by the manipulative fogen.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ha, I love the way Fogen supporters think that test is credible.

      • Malisha says:

        Voice-Stress Test: Fogen asked for it (probably advised to do so by Osterman). He knew it was a pleasant little way for him to dishonestly claim that he had passed a “lie detector test.” He does not have stress in his voice when he is lying; he has stress in his voice when he is challenged and the person challenging him has either as much or more power than he has. He would have no stress in his voice when calling his ME co-worker a terrorist; he would have no stress in his voice when lying to his manager that he had not been harassing his co-worker; he WOULD have stress in his voice if that manager said, “That’s not credible; your behavior is unacceptable; apologize to Omar.” Of course, people always soft-pedaled sweet little FogenFace, so he didn’t have to get stress into his voice.

        “Are the walls green?”
        “Did you ever get pulled over for speeding?”
        “Am I wearing a watch?”
        “Did you confront ‘the guy’?” {Notice, Erwin does not even call the victim by his real name, to make sure Fogen is not stressed.}
        “Were you afraid for your life at the time that you fired?” {Notice, he phrased the question the way Fogen liked it; he did not ask, for instance, “Did you really believe this kid could kill you with his bare hands?”}

        These are for coloring-book hour in the kindergarten class, NOT for a real test of any kind. The voice-stress test was for “theater” so people like Jonathan Turley could try to keep their credibility while fixing their mouths to tell the public that it’s still “innocent” and perfectly OK for a guy to go kill some harmless unarmed African American kid because he got himself all worked up about Pba-lack criminals destroying his way of life.

    • ay2z says:

      The back to back interviews, allowed further embellishment by fogen, as he noticed things along his re-enactment way. The stumble, pushing him off probably, when he saw how far Trayvon’s body was from the ‘T’, and getting out of the car, the house didn’t have an address on it, morphed into the house had a big pickup parked in front of it. (Sgt Smith made a point to bring that up in the ‘where’d you park’ question).

      These new embellishments were prompted by the re-enactment. Adding more info in, to be called a ‘truth’ under the stress test situation.

      I noticed that investigator Irwin, who was the test ‘operator’, honed right in on the technical aspects of drawing and firing the gun, the smothering and going for his gun, whose hands were where. They were into that before fogen knew it, and even when the phone bell signal was heard, fogen didn’t clue in, and wanted to say more.

    • Bahama Mama says:

      The stress test was done after midnight on the night of the murder, then they let him go home to his own bed. The reenactment was done the following evening, AFTER gz slept in a bed at his buddy Osterman’s house. That is why they both have same date stamp on them.

      • ay2z says:

        Bahama Mama says:
        March 25, 2013 at 11:54 am
        The stress test was done after midnight on the night of the murder, then they let him go home to his own bed. The reenactment was done the following evening, AFTER gz slept in a bed at his buddy Osterman’s house. That is why they both have same date stamp on them.

        Not sure where you got that information from, but it is not correct.

        Check it out.

      • ay2z says:

        Also, common sense says you can not do a stress test the night of the event, if you listen to the interview completely, not an excerpt, you will hear that the pre-amble is intended to eliminate any stress of the situation, so stress inflections in the answers can be seen.

        Date and TIME stamps. Both on the 27th, the killing took place on Sunday evening, the 26th and the only interview we know of on the 26th, was that of Doris Singleton.

        Look at the records.

        And if you believe Osterman, he said they didn’t take in their guest for about 4 days after the shooting.

      • ay2z says:

        Voice test video with date and time stamps:

        26th interview, part 1 here, date and time stated by Singleton.


      • ay2z says:

        Fox news reporter said at the Osterman’s starting ‘the next day’ and shoed a video of Osterman and he didn’t say that. But,in the Dr. PHil interview, Osterman claims they didn’t take him in until the media became a problem, about 4 days after the shooting.

      • Bahama Mama says:

        My bad, it appears the stress test was taken right “after” the reenactment, the following day. The interview I was thinking of, was Serrino’s, taken right after midnight, before they released him.
        Not sure about the Osterman claims, but I remember reading (a while back) that GZ never went home that night, and instead went to Osterman’s house, and stayed for some period of time…out of fear for his well being. Which makes NO sense, because no one even knew about the case until a few weeks later.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “…but I remember reading (a while back) that GZ never went home that night, and instead went to Osterman’s house, and stayed for some period of time…out of fear for his well being. Which makes NO sense, because no one even knew about the case until a few weeks later.”

          I saw somewhere recently that it was supposed to be fear of possible reprisal in case the then still-unidentified victim was part of a gang that made them decide not to stay at their own place that night.


      • Rachael says:

        Yes, of course because all black kids with hoodies are part of a gang.

      • Xena says:

        GZ told Hannity that he had not been home since 2/26/12.
        ZIMMERMAN: I was going to Target to do my weekly grocery shopping. Sunday nights was the only nights — well, Sunday after we mentored the kids, we would always go grocery shopping and do our cooking for the week. So I wanted to go to Target and I headed out. And that’s the last time I’ve been home.

        HANNITY: Since then. You never went back since that day.

        ZIMMERMAN: No.

        Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/07/18/exclusive-george-zimmerman-breaks-silence-hannity#ixzz2OZzE8UgS

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @xena who quotes gz (rhymes with sleazy — nice 😉 )

          well, Sunday after we mentored the kids, we would always go grocery shopping and do our cooking for the week. So I wanted to go to Target and I headed out. And that’s the last time I’ve been home.

          i have always felt that ‘going to target’ was a lame excuse, but it just dawned on me — who in their right mind would undertake that mission at 7 pm on a sunday? it takes me a good 2 hours to shop and put away groceries and then if you were to cook your weekly meals afterwards (some folks do) i cannot imagine finishing up before 3 am…. and then get up and go to work?? the absolute ludicrousness of this claim just really hit home.

          • Xena says:


            i have always felt that ‘going to target’ was a lame excuse, but it just dawned on me — who in their right mind would undertake that mission at 7 pm on a sunday?

            That doesn’t make sense to me either. It also doesn’t make sense because ShelLIE wasn’t working. She had all week to go to the grocery store.

      • lurker says:

        unitron–yes, the internal logic related to Z’s fear of going home again had to do with believing that all the young blacks he saw in the neighborhood were a part of some well-organized crime effort. He saw himself as taking some sort of stand and imagined himself to be up against some kind of black mafia. Also explains all of his over-the-top efforts (walking around armed whenever it was not prohibited; calls to police on any black kid he saw, fear of giving his address to the police over the phone, etc)

      • Malisha says:

        Rachel, the Bpa-lack kids withOUT hoodies are also part of gangs but they are travelling in disguise to fool you! Be very careful!

  11. Cercando Luce says:

    A fine theme song for this part of the case.

  12. bettykath says:

    the telling remarks about how “suspects” need to respond to “authority” but that he thinks Singleton “doesn’t have to worry” about that since she has such a commanding presence, or whatever it is that he says exactly. I’m paraphrasing a bit here, but it was a telling moment

    I agree that this statement is important. Knox included a transcript of this interchange but LEFT OUT that statement. Either Knox doesn’t understand how important it is, or, considering its importance he deliberately left it out. Neither possibility is flattering for Knox.

    • Trained Observer says:

      First of all, I didn’t find Singleton’s slouching baseball cap presence in the sweat room at all commanding. That may have been deliberate on her part.

      The commentary about authority from Fogen, I felt, was just another example of him running his mouth as a suck-up.

      Helloooo Mrs. Cleaver.

      • bettykath says:

        I agree that Singleton’s behavior in that instance wasn’t at all intimidating. It was deliberate. The purpose was to keep fogen relaxed and talking. And so he did. It was much more revealing that if Serino had been there.

      • Xena says:

        @Trained Observer. GZ assumed he should have been respected as an authority.

    • Malisha says:

      Knox deliberately left it out. He likes the facts that make his theories work; he does not mention facts he does not like.

  13. Great comment and observations……

    Not only in his lies to the cops…..

    His lies to the court……

    And then there’s hannity…..the look I saw on MOM’s face was “STFU Dumbass”……”gods plan”…..”no regrets”…..”Wouldn’t have done anything different”

    fogen can’t keep from running his mouth….seems to be a family trait.

    Can MOM keep him from taking the stand if fogen wants to?

    Because I can’t see him not wanting to tell the jury his side of the story / stories.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      pat – the best o’mara could do would be to advise gz to not take the stand in the strongest possible terms, while outlining all potential pitfalls. if gz is determined to testify, his lawyer cannot stop him and the best he could do would be to mitigate the disaster by limiting the scope of his questioning.

      gz is between the proverbial rock and a hard place. he’s damned if he does and damned if he does not take the stand. i would be shocked if o’mara is not attempting a plea deal already.

    • Can MOM keep him from taking the stand if fogen wants to?

      Answer: No he cannot. A defendant has a right to testify. MOM can certainly recommend that he not testify, but the defendant can disregard his advice.

      As a practical matter, the defendant has to testify in order to have any chance at an acquittal, but if he does testify, Katie bar the door.

      Should be delicious to watch.

      • Patricia says:

        LMAS professor, “Katie bar the door”. Fogen will be like a
        Turkey in the shoot! Fogenlicious!

      • kllypyn says:

        isn’t he be required to testify since he wants to claim self defense at his trial?

        • No, he cannot be required to testify because he has a 5th Amendment right to remain silent. As a practical matter, however, he has to testify in order to present his case to the jury. There is no other way to get his version of what happened before the jury, since no one witnessed what he claims to have experienced, and he can’t rely on W6 to testify that he saw Martin straddling him and raining down blows MMA style because W6 retracted that story.

          His big problem is that no one is going to believe him, if he testifies, because he has uttered so many conflicting and inconsistent statements.

          This is why he is damned if he does not testify and damned if he does.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Am clearing my calendar for a lengthy feast. Justice for Trayvon.

    • lurker says:

      Speaking of family traits, looks like R jr was drinking over the weekend and spent some time tweeting. Makes fairly clear his belief that his brother is not a racist because young black men/boys are dangerous murderers.

      • RZJ I’d just like to bitch slap…..this other dude?………The slowest most painful torture…..for an extended period.

        “Give me your money or I’ll shoot your kid”…..And the deliberately shoots a 13 month old infant point blank in the head……

        How inhuman, callous, without emotion can a human being (and I use the term “human” loosely) be?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The point is that he compared Trayvon to a depraved murderer simply because both young men are black, the pinnacle of racism.

        • Roger that…………..Just like saying all white chefs are going to cook their wives……If they haven’t yet….they will eventually…..so we should get rid of all white chefs before they can start cooking.

          Hell I had a worse rap sheet than Trayvon at that age…..GTA / interstate transportation of stolen autos for a start.

          To me all racism & bigotry is based on ignorance and insecurity.

      • Rachael says:

        Makes fairly clear his belief that his brother is not a racist because young black men/boys are dangerous murderers.

        Don’t EVEN get me started again!!!! Or maybe I should. I am so sick of this kind of crap.

      • Xena says:


        Makes fairly clear his belief that his brother is not a racist because young black men/boys are dangerous murderers.

        That would include Junior’s great granddaddy, or is it his great, great granddaddy? I mean, what excludes the Black man who he claims his Afro roots from? Oh wait. I get Junior’s logic. Although the African genes make him and his brother dangerous murderers, the Peruvian genes gives them right to murder but claim self-defense.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        mtnmanpat – Not many people back in the day thought it was okay to kill kids who had committed offenses or who were thought to be committing offenses. I heard some pretty rought talk and even saw people stand outside with shotguns in hand, but that was for a show of force. It’s shocking how much the country has changed in that regard, but at least people are showing their true faces.

      • Malisha says:

        Oh sweet — but I don’t tweet. Can somebody put up the relevant quotations so I can have my daily blood-pressure-raising laughathon?

    • abbyj says:

      MtManPat, X2.

    • KittySP says:

      Well none of us, including GZ, will ever know Gods purposeful plan for that night…but be assured its in His plan that GZ ran his mouth, told those lies, gave those inconsistent statements, and did that ridiculous reenactment…that will be the icing on the cake, and nail in his coffin, when its all said and done.

  14. fauxmccoy says:

    excellent synopsis, willis!

  15. onlyiamunitron says:

    “Someone in the SPD made the call that George “should be handled with kid gloves” and also let go to sleep in his own bed.”

    Don’t know about the “kid gloves” part, but the immunity part of Florida’s Justifiable Use of Force law said if they couldn’t at least somewhat disprove a self-defense claim, they couldn’t arrest at that point (regardless of what they might have wanted to do), and apparently that night they didn’t feel they yet had enough to challenge the self-defense claim, so their hands were tied at that point, gloved or not.


    • bettykath says:

      I’m not sure about the requirements of the law, but I don’t see cops as having the authority to give final judgement on self-defense, especially when the investigation hasn’t been completed. Isn’t the purpose of the SYG hearing to determine whether or not it was self-defense?

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “I’m not sure about the requirements of the law…”

        776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
        (1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
        (2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
        (3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

        That night the Sanford PD didn’t think they yet had probable cause.

        That is not the same as deciding that they would never have it and that they might as well not bother to keep investigating the case.

        “…but I don’t see cops as having the authority to give final judgement on self-defense, especially when the investigation hasn’t been completed.”

        They did not make a final judgement, they made a preliminary one.

        If they had the authority to make a final judgement, Corey wouldn’t have been able to bring charges against Zimmerman.

        As we have seen, she seems to have been able to manage that without any particular hindrance.

        Go to


        and look for the places in a couple or three other sections where it talks about no duty to retreat.

        Those are the SYG parts, which are not 776.032, the immunity part.

        And for months now, the defense has maintained that the duty to retreat, or the lack thereof, don’t matter because Zimmerman lacked the abillity to retreat.


      • onlyiamunitron says:

        Figures that the word I hit with both the bold and the italics tags would be the one I misspelled.


        (who really wishes WordPress had a preview feature, the way good comment handling software does)

      • lurker says:

        unitron–while the police are certainly not the final abiters of self defense, I can recall some initial discussion of Stand Your Ground in relation to this case pointing out that the law–or perhaps even a misunderstanding of the law–was responsible for charges never being filed in a number of cases. And early on that did appear to be the direction that SPD was going, recalling their official statement that they had nothing to contradict the statement of self-defense.

        Their (mis)understanding seemed to be that it was up to them to DISprove self-defense, rather than the burden resting on Z to prove it. And to prove it to a judge.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “…I can recall some initial discussion of Stand Your Ground…”

          That’s because of all the people who (to my thinking, mistakenly) refer to Florida’s Justifiable Use of Force law as SYG because it contains SYG provisions, however it was the separate immunity provision in the JUoF law that actually applied that night when they did not yet have probable cause enough to overcome the self-defense claim.


      • leander22 says:

        Figures that the word I hit with both the bold and the italics tags

        If you wouldn’t have pointed it out, almost nobody would have noticed. It almost disappears in bold. 😉

        Florida’s Justifiable Use of Force law as SYG because it contains SYG provisions

        I start to realize I may have argued past you somewhere else. Are you suggesting that the use of “Stand your Ground” only refers to the abolishment of the duty to retreat, while the specific law in Florida additionally abolished the immediate arrest? It seems to dawn on me that I may have not quite understood. 😉

        I reached the same conclusion, and have posted this before:

        The Only Difference

        The only difference is that even if law enforcement believed George Zimmerman, under the old law they would have arrested him first and asked questions later.

        But under the new law, Florida Statute 776.032, law enforcement cannot arrest George Zimmerman unless they determine that the deadly force he used was unlawful under the facts of the case. [my emphasis]

        Nevertheless Willis Newton image of Serino is not that far from mine. And if they allow him (?) to publish a book on the case, I surely would read it. It also feels Randy Smith may have backed him. Consider Bill Lee’s position …

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          Thanks for the link.

          It’s a pretty good article except for calling the entire thing the SYG law, when 776.032, the immunity part, makes no mention of “stand your ground” or “duty to retreat”.

          And 776.032 is why they couldn’t arrest him that night without probable cause to at least partially overcome the self-defense claim.


      • leander22 says:

        It’s a pretty good article except for calling the entire thing the SYG law

        Yes, even the lawyers occasionally spread “misinformation” or not the accurate truth and nothing but the truth. Irony alert.

        this is my favorite comment:

        Kurt Erlenbach
        March 26, 2012 at 6:54 pm

        Your article is almost completely correct, but the final section shows why it is, in fact, a SYG case. It’s just that it’s not SYG in the usual case. The part that needlessly expanded the castle doctrine is not the issue. The part that matters is sec 776.032, which prevents an arrest. From the few pieces of the puzzle that have been reported, and which would seem accurate, I surmise that the police arrived, saw a dead black teenager and a distraught Zimmerman, who showed signs of a struggle. He gave them a story that would support a possible self-defense defense, and they released him because of sec. 776.032. The quality of the investigation at that time is unknown, and the information that’s come out since seems to cut both ways. The claim of self-defense is nonsensical, but obviously requires investigation, so we end up in the situation we are in. The biggest problem with SYG is that it changed the defense into a super-immunity, preventing an arrest where even an unlikely self-defense claim prevents an arrest.

      • cielo62 says:

        >^..^<. This is where the abuse of the law comes in.

    • elcymoo says:

      I don’t see how the SPd could make any determination about his claim of self-defense before they’d even ID’d the dead teenager or determined whether he had a right to be in that neighborhood, though, onlyiamunitron.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “I don’t see how the SPd could make any determination about his claim of self-defense …”

        The determination they made was that they did not yet have probable cause that contradicted Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense, not that they had probable cause that it was self-defense.

        The immunity portion of Florida’s Justifiable Use of Force law (which I posted above) is worded so as to protect people from being arrested unneccessarily in self-defense cases, which is a lot easier on someone financially and psychologically than being arrested first and having the charges dropped later when it turns out there’s not enough to take to trial.


      • ay2z says:

        Cutting through the neighborhood was enough suspicion of doing something wrong, for fogen to follow, try to stop and then stop a person. Shouldn’t be killed for that either, no matter how ‘suspicious’ fogen made someone out to be by the ‘looking into houses’, cutting between houses’, ‘raining out’, ‘not a hard core athelete’, ‘staring’ and ‘circling’ embellishments comments make someone out to be.

        (notice car length away from fogen turned into ‘on arm’s length’ in Osterman’s statement to police. but it’s not a ‘lie’ because Osterman said it?)

    • Two sides to a story says:

      People who claim to have shot someone in self-defense are almost always investigated over a period of weeks. Arrests aren’t made quickly, so it was not at all unusual that Fogen “went home to his own bed.”

      • Rachael says:

        Unfortunately, that is true. Sigh.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Definitely, as the next article shows, SPD could have moved a lot faster. And the City of Tucson should have moved a lot faster in the AZ case. On the good side, it may make for a more airtight case, if all the i’s are dotted and t’s crossed. We know the SPDs work wasn’t that clean and that they failed to gather particular evidence.

    • looneydoone says:

      Their hands were NOT “tied”
      the shooter could have/should have been arrested on “Suspicion of Negligent Homicide” and held in custody until after the video re-enactment had taken place, at minimum. That would also have allowed for his being subjected to a drug and alcohol tox screen. He could have been held for 72 hours under *Suspicion of” charges.

      • ay2z says:

        And his car could have been taken that night. Wonder if the ‘key-drop’ at, or toss to, the T was purposeful as fogen was led away, or before cops came, and why it was critical to get in touch with Shellie.

        For all the cops knew, he could have had a bottle of anti-anxiety pills in use before leaving the vehicle, or a bottle, or a second gun, or evidence of loading the gun. So much.

      • looneydoone says:

        Let me clarify that
        fogen could have been arrested on *Suspicion of*(any crime) the night of the shooting. That allows for law enforcement to take a person into custody for a max 72 hours and order tox screens. Charges are either upgraded or dismissed within the 72 hour limit…and it happens every day, in every State across the USA…often as a harassment tool.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “…is immune from criminal prosecution…As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.”

        Immune means they can’t do it.


      • abbyj says:

        Doone, so very nice to see you. Strongly agree with you that the SPD had many more options with shooter that night. Yes, he could have been held in custody for 72 hrs, and that would have given the necessary time to perform the essential drug/alcohol tests. It is inconceivable that the SPD allowed him to walk free without these tests.

        It may be that the interrogators “played to his vanity” and ego needs, as Willis so eloquently explains, and I find Willis’s analysis very compelling. However, the single greatest failure by the SPD was taking Fogen at his word, as evidenced by them not performing due diligence of the tox tests. So much was lost. IMO, Fogen was high as a kite, and his altered state was very much revealed by his slurring of words and cursing in the NEN call.

      • looneydoone says:

        So very nice seeing you here too.
        It needs to be known who;
        1)fogen was on the phone with when witness #13 took the photos
        2)who contacted off duty SPD Chief Billy Lee, and why he took the highly unusual action to come to a homicide scene that did not involve one of his officers
        3)who contacted off duty State Atty Wolfinger to ensure no arrest of fogen was to take place
        4) why was osterman allowed inside the crime scene to interact with SPD and civilians…and why does his name (along with officer timothy smith’s) names not appear on the Crime Scene Contamination Area log

      • abbyj says:

        Doone, You’re asking critical questions that cannot be ignored. The four points open up the secret acts that surely lie beneath this murder. A strong guess is that we’ll learn the influential RbtSr. assumed immediately in manipulating the key players for his son’s benefit. The phone records (texts/emails included) will reveal much.

        In addition, your last point is well taken. How did Osterman work the system so as to penetrate the cordoned-off crime scene? If I understand correctly, how did Osterman also arrange to be present at the SPD, and at the re-enactment? Why did the SPD not exclude him for fear of interview contamination? There’s no other way I can see this, Doone, except through the lens of corruption of the SPD.

        Great questions you pose. Thank you, and a delight to see you.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @abbyj — in regards to osterman’s presence during questioning (not sure if anyone has answered because i am responding from email)

          zimmerman could have asked that superman be present with him if he had wished — he was giving voluntary statements, the SPD wanted to hear him and there is no law requiring that you be alone. the only applicable law would be that an attorney be provided if requested. pretty simple.

      • Rachael says:

        @looneydoone – that’s still not arrested because there is no charge. They can, however, be detained for 72 hours to see if they have reason for charges and then be arrested if they have something to charge them with.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “They can, however, be detained for 72 hours ”

          “…is immune from criminal prosecution…As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.”

          Immune means they can’t do it.


        • A person is under arrest when they are in custody (i.e., not free to leave), whether or not they have been told that they are under arrest. A person who is handcuffed is under arrest.

          Police do not have the power to charge a suspect with a felony in Washington State. If the have probable cause to arrest a suspect for a felony, they arrest the suspect for suspicion of that felony and book them into jail.

          Prosecutors have 72 hours from the time the suspect is booked into jail, excluding weekends and holidays, within which to file a charge. If they don’t, the jail will release the suspect.

          Prosecutors can still charge the suspect after the suspect is released. The only limitation on how long they can take to do that is the statute of limitations, which varies depending on the crime. Murder has no statute of limitations. If the prosecutor decides to charge a suspect who was released without charge, they will usually mail the suspect a copy of the information (the charging document) and a summons to go to court for the arraignment at a specific date and time.

          Suspects booked into jail for suspicion of a violent felony will generally be charged within 72 hours in order to avoid them being released into the community. Suspects booked into jail for a nonviolent felony will generally be released without charge and summoned to court at a later time, if charged.

          The 72 hour rule is designed to prevent suspects being held in jail for indeterminate periods of time without a formal charge being filed against them. It’s the front end of the speedy trial apparatus.

      • deborah says:

        @AbbyJ and Looney:

        Hey Abby and Looney! You both ask some great questions! I cannot begin to imagine the questions that Mark O. and the rest of the Z brigate will have to answer. Yes, their was indeed a cover up planned to get that lunatic off of murder charges but once the family made some noise and prominent civil rights leaders became involved and the media spoltlight was on this town, they had to quietly dismantle themselves. I know Daddy Z is involved in this, and they need to investigate him, Lee. Smith, Osterman and the rest of their cohorts who attempted to sweep this crime under the rug.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Oh, I would love, love, love to see a tox report on Fogen.

    • parrot says:

      “…that night they didn’t feel they yet had enough to challenge the self-defense claim…”

      OK, but Police Chief Bill Lee did not think they had PC when he had his press conference over two weeks later in mid March.

      Look at the wealth of evidence they had at that point: Z’s statements and re-enactment, the NEN call, the witness statements…

      Would the outrage that ensued ever have occurred at all if the arrest had taken place days later?

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        I’m talking about why they didn’t, and couldn’t, regardless of what they wanted to do, arrest him that night. Not later on. That night.

        You can’t arrest or base probable cause on evidence that you think you might get at some point in the future. It has to already exist and you have to already have it.

        If you want to argue about 2 weeks later, go find Bill Lee and take it up with him. I’m not his keeper.


      • parrot says:

        The point is that there was no will to arrest at all whether that day or any other.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “The point is that there was no will to arrest at all whether that day or any other.”

          No, the point is that I was talking about the night of the shooting and the immunity clause, in response to a post about Zimmerman being allowed to go home the night of the shooting.

          The part of Willis Newton’s post which I quoted and responded to, as well as my response, dealt only with that night, and why the police could not arrest him immediately.


      • parrot says:

        I understood your point. My point was just broader in that, unfortunately, there was a mindset at the SPD that was not conducive to doing the right thing.

      • Malisha says:

        Please let’s stop “going with” the [easily provably] false assumption that the reason Fogen was not charged with a crime on the evening of 2/26/2012 was that there was not probable cause to charge him with a crime that evening. This is not about the police getting themselves confused about whether there was probable cause for a charge that night. This is about the police having already both agreed and having been INSTRUCTED that this was to be regarded as a “good shoot” because it would be considered “self-defense” under the SYG law; that is where the media FOUND it; with the “SYG DEFENSE” that the lawyers, legislators and even governor later said did not even apply.

        This was not a case where a guy is in his HOUSE and some unknown Trayvon Martin comes to his HOUSE and appears to be up to no good and attacks him and gets shot.

        This is not a case where a guy is in his CAR and calls NEN and reports a suspicious guy who thereafter attacks him in his car and gets shot.

        Those two circumstances would have given both cops and prosecutors the idea that there was a situation involving SYG and involving probable or possible immunity and NOT INVOLVING probable cause.

        What happened was pretty obvious. The cops and the prosecutors all figured this was a ne’er-doer-well who was on Fogen’s turf and it was OK to kill him. The three parts of that were all false assumptions made by cops and prosecutors who were depriving Trayvon Martin and his family of their constitutional rights (life and liberty) under color of state law. He was not a ne’er-doer well; he was not on Fogen’s turf; and it was not OK to kill him.

        He obviously should have been arrested and charged with at least manslaughter that night.

        Obviously more physical evidence should have been gathered from him that night (including testing of all blood on him; no private personal clean-ups in the bathroom while still in custody). And obviously Serino was questioning him in a way that revealed that Serino had already been given orders not to charge Fogen, that very night. The “good cop; good cop” routine in my opinion was not just to keep Fogen talking; it was to make sure that none of the higher-ups in the SPD could discipline Singleton or Serino for having failed to follow orders.

        I think if Serino didn’t continually remind Fogen that he was really on his side:

        “You’re just not — that’s not you?”
        “I gotta ask these questions; a lot of people are gonna be asking why you’re not locked up…”
        “You’re still the good guy here…”
        “You’re following this guy, see what he’s up to…”
        “I’m here for you–”

        and if Singleton let any of her incredulity show, without appearing to have been satisfied:

        “So now you want to pretend — sorry, I mean, now you want us to believe…”
        “But you DID have a problem…”
        “But it sounds like you say he’s running and then you get out of the truck…”

        they would have been off the case (kicked off by the higher-ups) before there was a chance to file any memo or draw up any capias.

        Who do we think leaked the video of a relaxed, comfortable Fogen coming into the station house through the garage that night? Complete with chummy “frisk” and casual toss of SOMETHING into the trunk of a police vehicle?

    • Bahama Mama says:

      Yes, the SYG law allows a person to claim self defense, and NOT get arrested “until” they investigate and find the probable cause.
      I’m from Florida, and I can tell you, if gz had been black, he would have been arrested THAT night!
      We still operate on the “good ole boy” theory.

      • Bahama Mama says:

        When I say “we”, I don’t mean “me”. I mean the police in central Florida.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Worse yet, this SYG law makes it incredibly difficult to investigate crimes, because without being able to arrest, evidence collection is made more difficult, if not impossible in some cases. ( I won’t bother to lay it out here, but I’ll guess that the lawyers here can figure it out).

      • Bahama Mama says:

        “Worse yet, this SYG law makes it incredibly difficult to investigate crimes, because without being able to arrest, evidence collection is made more difficult, if not impossible in some cases. ”

        Randall White ordered a thin-crust veggie pie at a Little Caesars restaurant in St. Petersburg, Fla., on Sunday and complained about the slow service. He didn’t get his pizza faster, but he did get two bullets in the gut, the Tampa Bay Times reports.

        According to the paper, Michael Jock, another customer, told White to pipe down. That led to shoving, and when White, 49, raised his fist, Jock, 52, allegedly pulled out a legally concealed .38 revolver and shot White in the stomach. The two men wrestled and Jock allegedly shot White again.

        According to the Sun-Sentinel, Jock told police the shooting was justified under Florida’s Stand Your Ground law, but he was arrested for aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.

        White was apparently well enough to tell the Tampa Bay Times, “To me, that stand your ground rule … people are twisting it.” (For more details of the shooting, visit the Tampa Bay Times.)

        Florida’s Stand Your Ground law — which in some cases permits deadly force in self-defense without an attempt to retreat first — has been severely tested recently. Michael Dunn invoked the controversial measure in November after he shot and killed 17-year-old Jordan Russell Davis during an argument at a Jacksonville gas station. Dunn was arraigned Monday on first degree murder charges, NPR reports.


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