Open Thread Discussion re Trayvon Martin’s Case

Sunday, March 24, 2013

Please use this open thread discussion to discuss Trayvon’s case.

REMINDER: Whether we are liberal, conservative or something else there is no good reason why we cannot coexist peacefully and respectfully in the Justice for Trayvon tent.

230 Responses to Open Thread Discussion re Trayvon Martin’s Case

  1. willisnewton says:

    Legal question: of the 130 witnesses on the list, is George Zimmerman named? Would he be if he planned to take the stand or could he testify without being listed?

  2. Malisha says:

    Witness being Trayvon Martin’s mother:

    O’Mara or West: Is it true that Trayvon Martin was your son?
    A: Yes.
    Q: Why did you allow him to attack and try to kill Fogen?
    A: Isn’t that what African Americans are SUPPOSED to do?

  3. ay2z says:

    noticed this in todays witness list article at OS, apparently the NBC sue suit has been put on hold for the time being, as of Tuesday. (assume that’s today)

    In the temporary stay agreement, made official by a court order disclosed online Tuesday, both sides agreed to wait until the outcome of Zimmerman’s criminal trial and any appeal before moving forward with the suit.

    PS: wondering if the defense needed to file that 130 name witness list on a roll or toilet paper, it’s so long! See that rollin’ off Judge Nelson’s bench when it’s brought up at trial!

  4. Trained Observer says:

    And as for the fine and admonishment demands, I’m hopeful it’s MOM and West who get a faceful from the judge for the way they’ve been blabbing to the media every whipstitch.

  5. O’Mara: Fine prosecutors for hiding witness lies,0,1425704.story

    George Zimmerman’s attorneys on Monday formally accused prosecutors of being unethical, saying that for seven months, they hid a pair of lies by their most important witness, and that they should be punished for it.

    The allegations, spelled out in a new court pleading, mark a new low in the case.

    Defense attorneys Mark O’Mara and Don West have complained for months about Assistant State Attorneys Bernie de la Rionda and John Guy, saying they have refused repeated requests to turn over key pieces of evidence. This time, they’ve asked Circuit Judge Debra S. Nelson to fine and admonish them.
    Prosecutors are required to release in a timely fashion information to a suspect if it might help prove his innocence. In this case, according to paperwork filed by O’Mara, de la Rionda and Guy have flouted that rule.

    For seven months, they knew that the state’s most important witness, a young Miami woman who was on the phone with Trayvon Martin just moments before he was shot, had lied about going to a hospital a few days later, according to the new paperwork.

    • Xena says:

      Prosecutors are required to release in a timely fashion information to a suspect if it might help prove his innocence.

      Where Witness 8 went the days of Trayvon’s wake and funeral, her age, what she had for dinner, how many times she brushed her teeth, who does her hair, have absolutely nothing to do with proving whether GZ is innocent.

      What O’Mara and West are doing is diverting from what Witness 8 heard while on the phone with Trayvon, by trying to intimidate her to not testify at trial by calling her a liar now. I hope she has an attitude to tell them to kiss her where the sun doesn’t shine and come trial, take the stand with her head held high.


    Click to access mot_for_sanctions_discovery.pdf

    • Trained Observer says:

      Thanks for post southernGirl — Am hopeful Judge Nelson tells defense to pound sand on the expense demand.

      Am also hopeful she tells them that if they’d deposed Witness 8 in a timely manner, they’d have found out whatever they wanted to know a whole lot sooner.

      If allegations about the hospital are true , I’m disappointed Witness felt compelled to put those forward. I still think there may be more to this.

      More importantly, whether she did or didn’t do the socially acceptable thing in appearing at Trayvon’s funeral or wake and her reasons for staying secluded — all that’s irrelevant to Trayvon’s murder.

      What is the rationale supposed to be here … Witness 8 didn’t come clean on events days after the murder , so Fogen shouldn’t be criticized for telling whoppers about the murder itself?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I’m given to wonder if there might have been media there at the wake and that DD’s mother would have been rightfully fearful of letting her attend for that reason? After all who would recognize “Rent-a-Friend” for what he was, if he was there? You attend these functions you leave a trail. Remember how the FBI took down mafioso by filming funerals and weddings?

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Poor MOM, he’s smarting under the weight of the slap down he received at the hands of Attorney Black. So that now, in an effort to display his legal prowess, he’s firing back with a incendiary 66 page motion without meaningful content! Because of the unique nature of what DD is ear witness to, the veracity of her testimony, is external to her beliefs and/or intentions. But, instead hangs on how well it fits or does not fit events occurring at the scene on that night. She was not free to observe anything that night at that place and/or during that time. She had only to rely upon what Trayvon was able to tell her.

      It’s telling that despite the fact that GZ was telling lies to the NEN operator that night, and spreading different versions of what occurred, DD’s unchanged testimony has continuously held up and exposed the truth, by coinciding with the testimony of other witnesses there at the scene.

      For example, at the time she reports Trayvon asks “What are you following me for?” moments before the phone goes dead. The timing shows that according to GZ’s claims, Trayvon would be assaulting him while this call was still a minute or so from concluding. Which, of course is added to by the timing of GZ’s NEN call and his location, that says he should be under assault no less than a minute before his NEN call is concluded. Those twin facts challenge GZ’s claim of being assaulted as and where he says he was, and additionally confirms the lack of any assault indicated by the lack of trace on Trayvon’s hands.

      Worse yet, the location of GZ’s story is wrong, the terrified screams are not his as verified by identification and expert analysis. GZ is known to have always carried a gun, is known to have gone on patrols with his firearm, in spite of the fact that the NW rules warn against it and that the SPD NW liaison has repeatedly stated the NW rules and asked that they be carefully observed. GZ, continues to grow ever more angry, to the point where he misidentifies a lawful and law abiding child as a potentially dangerous criminal, whom he follows, confronts the timid child inducing sheer terror, then draws his firearm and kills the child without reason.

      Now GZ expects us to believe that a timid 158 lb 5′ 11″ teenager, who does not engage in physical combat with anyone, not even his peers. But is suddenly an attacker so potent that with his bare hands he’s a lethal threat, to an angry former bouncer and professional “muscle” man with a firearm. Forsooth I say, total hogwash!

      The evidence will back up this view, by showing that GZ was holding Trayvon with one hand, while he prepared to take the kill shot with his other hand. And, that he was pulling Trayvon towards himself at the time the shot was fired.

  7. Before anyone gets too upset about Racist Bigot Robert Zimmerman Jr. and his running mouth twitter feed, check out who he basically talks to in these random but consecutive tweets (By the way, it appears that his mouth is working for the prosecution).

    For real:

  8. Trained Observer says:

    A fabulousl, practical post from the professor that ought to be taped to the refrigerator door of any all … especially law-abiding innocents.

  9. colin black says:

    GZ: I, it was dark. I didn’t even see him getting ready to punch me. …
    Lynn re the above statement truthfull people do not report events that they didnt wittness.
    The above excert is a perfect example of a deceitfull answer.
    Liars like to pad out there lies with extra pointless information.
    Thinking it bolsters there version of events.

  10. Lynn says:

    This being an open thread, I thought I’d point out a few inconsistencies stuck in my craw and get your thoughts. I was going over Fogen’s statement to Singleton 2/26.

    Click to access 12-3198_Appendix.pdf

    Page 11

    GZ: So I was walking back through to where my car was and he jumped out from the bushes and he said, “What the f*ck’s your problem, homey?”…

    also Page 11

    GZ: I, it was dark. I didn’t even see him getting ready to punch me. …

    Page 17

    GZ: And then when I walked back towards him, I, I saw him coming at me and I went to grab my phone. …

    OKAY! Which was it? Was is light enough to see him jumping out of the bushes, even though you were facing the other way? Or was it so dark that you couldn’t even see him starting to swing on you? Or were you walking TOWARDS him and SAW him coming at you? Secondly…

    Page 16
    has Singleton asking where his phone is at? In his hand… or put away… or dropped? Did Fogen slip up again? He said, “No, I had it in my hand when HE, I put it.”…

    Singleton: And that’s when they disconnected with you?
    GZ: Yes, ma’am.
    Singleton: That’s when they said, okay, they’re on scene. Okay?
    GZ: Yes, Ma’am. So, I did, I put my cell phone away.

    OKAY. He, for sure this time, knows he put his phone away just to start walking back towards him and TRY to pull it out when TM whacks him. Right after they tell him they’re on scene. WTF? He is pretty much admitting that he pocketed his phone after the NEN call and was walking TOWARDS TM. (pg 17)

    Page 18
    has GZ drawing his map explaining the sidewalks, dog walks, etc. (trying to get Singleton to understand how TM is banging his head on a sidewalk not a patio) GZ maps the dog walk out and states, “SO, I WALKED BACK THERE. HE HIT ME.” He’s admitting he walked back there. Not on the connecting sidewalk to RVC, but on the dog walk where he turned his head and saw all those witnesses talking to him without helping him!

    OKAY. Must take a break. Get blood pressure down and I’ll chime in later about another paragraph that is bothering me. LOL

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Good job, LLMPapa!

    • Xena says:

      And every time Junior tweets his mouth open, he confirms what Witness 9 said about his family. Good job, LLMPapa.

    • Crazy.

      I don’t castigate the entire white race when I watch to catch a predator, nor when we catch another serial killer or child killer, nor when I see stories of banking scandals, nor when I hear about mass shootings, nor when I hear about racial bias or even racial violence, nor when I hear about moms who kill their children, nor when people do a “blame it on a black man” when they commit a crime, nor when I hear tea party republican logic, but everytime a black man does something that can be disapproved of… some don’t even need a jury to say this is commonplace amongst 50mil black people in America and all should be judged accordingly.

    • So is Robert Zimmerman alleging that TM was just as worthy of death as this alleged killer? What do these 2 have in common besides being 17? What possible feature do these 2 have in common that makes them so similar that it’s uncanny?

      I mean if they were the only 2 blacks on planet earth, then maybe he would have a point. BTW did someone check and see if that pict of Trayvon is photoshopped? His arms seem out of place.

  11. elcymoo says:

    Can anyone point me to documentation that GZ didn’t have his wallet on him on the night he shot and killed Trayvon? I’ve seen several references to it, including one that said his wife brought it to him later at the SPD, and others that said he only had a plastic bag with a couple of quarters in it. I must have missed this when I went through the document dumps.

    • Dave says:

      Some people have assumed that he didn’t have a wallet on him because one wasn’t taken into evidence. His jacket and its contents (including the bag with the coins) were listed among the evidence taken. I don’t think that his socks or underpants were listed as evidence either but that doesn’t necessarily mean that he wasn’t wearing them.

    • aussie says:

      He DID have his wallet with him. Singleton took the CCW permit out of it to check it.

      This was during the very first police interview with GZ, which you can find on axiomamnesia or heaps of other sites.

      The wallet was not entered into evidence, so I assume it was given back to him to take home.

      • elcymoo says:

        Thanks to aussie and Dave for their responses to my questions about GZ’s wallet. I thought I remembered seeing the wallet in one of the interviews, but wasn’t certain. Were the contents of the wallet ever listed? I’ve seen multiple comments claiming that he couldn’t have been headed to Target that night because he didn’t have cash or credit cards on him.

  12. looolooo says:

    Seems as though the viscious backlash towards Fogen’s long term victim was unwarranted. GZ’s cousin seems to have been spot on when she described the diabolical,egregious, bigoted, psychotic, and racist character traits of the ENTIRE Zimmerthug KKKlan.

    Am I the only one who finds it rather odd and telling that RZJ has NEVER gone after his cousin for her lies and attacks on his sainted brothers character? He’s all but put out a “hit” on Natalie Jackson afterall. Why the difference? I wonder if he has molested one of their younger male cousins. Hope not, but if so, I hope to GOD that it will come to fore.

    And it STILL irks me that Bill Maher had him in his clutches, tossed him under handed soft balls, allowed him to further his demonic cause, then complimented him highly and sent him off with an even puffier chest. Haven’t tuned in since.

    • Xena says:


      He’s all but put out a “hit” on Natalie Jackson afterall. Why the difference? I wonder if he has molested one of their younger male cousins.

      There are some tale-telling things about the Zimmermans regarding GZ’s molestation of his cousin at such an early age. My gut feeling is that GZ was encouraged to get interested in girls, because his brother was not.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        One thing I have always felt is that gz has a lot of dirt info on family members.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        And such people would not want gz to have 25 years to yap about them.

      • Looolooo says:

        @ Xena & Lady….Hmmm. Hadn’t considered those scenarios, but they make perfect sense. I wonder if ANY of the molestation stuff will come up a trial. I’d love to see him squirm! However I’m guessing there’ll be a plea or admission of guilt. And I’m still waiting for some sort of violent outbreak from Fogen. :-/

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I can foresee gz having an episode of turning on people close to him and telling “all”.

    • Rachael says:

      I just think he doesn’t want to call attention to the cousin thing right now.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @looooloooo, I myself think Jr may have at one time maybe more, molested Fogen himself. that may be the reason for the long time estrangement. I have often thought about that every since I heard about them not being on speaking terms.

      It’s not impossible to think that Jr could have done this, when Fogen was maybe 10 or even in his early teens. there is some deep dark secrets as well as skeletons in the Zimmerman family closet. YEA DUKE!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I was once told by a therapist who worked with people who had been molested that any child who molests other children has been molested themselves . . . your conclusion is not only possible, but probable. Someone in Fogen’s immediate family molested him.

  13. willisnewton says:

    @ jun

    you wrote on an earlier thread something that I didn’t understand:

    Jun says:
    March 24, 2013 at 12:48 pm
    There was no way for Deedee nor Trayvon to know about the foot chase till later on, like a few minutes later

    We will know when we see the GPS records

    What did you mean by that? Trayvon knew he was chased by a CAR when the chasing car caused him to run off of TTL and into the cut thru. I think he didn’t know for certain if GZ got out of his car or not – he wasn’t sticking around to find out after the car started shadowing him. He left the roadway to avoid the car. Most pedestrians would do the same – go where the car can’t go.

    The foot chase came later, I agree. But Dee Dee knew about the car-to-pedestrian chase because Trayvon told her about it either as it was happening or moments later. Their call dropped right as it was happening, I think. But she called him right back, and he answered, and stayed on the line with her up until the two met up, probably in W6 / John’s back yard.

    This is what lots of people are missing out on however – before the foot chase, there was a car-to-pedestrian chase as well.

    IMO there may or may not be any useful GPS records, but you don’t need them to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a car-to-pedestrian chase. All you need is a map, a stopwatch and GZ’s NEN call recording.

    Proving the foot chase is harder to do, but ultimately may not be necessary to getting a jury to convict on M2. I think W2 and Dee Dee both corroborate a foot chase, (as does the location of the body) but keep in mind that whatever happened in the missing minutes comes AFTER GZ chased the teen off the road and then exited his vehicle, admitting he was following the fleeing teen, and then he found him and shot him.

    From the moment GZ started stalking the teen, he no longer possessed any right to claim self-defense. George KNOWS this and this is why he lied so heavily to conceal, obfuscate and omit the car-to-pedestrian chase down TTL.

    Stalking people in an intimidating fashion is against the law in Florida. People breaking the law can’t claim self defense if they shoot someone they were already committing a crime against. And Trayvon had a right to “stand his ground” against an aggressor who was running after him in the dark with a gun. I’m not sure he ever struck any blows at all against GZ but it hardly matters. Whatever actions GZ took once the two were in a fight, he was in the wrong legally.

    • Jun says:

      Trayvon ran away from him and may not have seen Fogen get out of his car to chase him on foot

      Deedee can only go by what she heard from Trayvon or she heard over the phone

      I’m not saying there was no stalking

      I’m just saying Trayvon did not notice Fogen was on foot till he was catching up to him, because at the earlier point when he began to run, he just knew the guy was in a car

      • willisnewton says:

        thanks. I agree that Trayvon was very likely already out of GZ’s sight by the time GZ physically exited the car. I think GZ opened the door quick but took around ten seconds to gather his gun and flashlight before he shut it.

        Dee Dee speaks of “I think I lost him” type words from TM before ” he’s behind me again” type language. IMO this refers to first the car-to-pedestrian chase and later to the pedestrian-to-pedestrian activity which at the heart of it means a gap was closed between the two. One pedestrian had been on his way home, and the other was clearly out in search of the other. One pedestrian was frightened of the other, and had run away. The other had grabbed a gun and went after the other. One wanted to be left alone and to talk to his friend on the phone, and the other wanted to not let an “axxhole get away.”

        I have no idea how the gap between the two persons was closed but it’s clear which was more likely to close the gap. Dee Dee seems to have had a clear idea that the gap was closed by GZ pursuing TM on foot and being faster. I tend to think she is right.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Willisnewton, Indeed Trayvon did have a right to stand his ground against Fogen but, those who want to see Fogen get away with murdering an innocent child, don’t think he had any rights at all. these bigoted racist are wrong and they know it. how can anybody for what ever reason, think it’s OK to kill a child?

    • gbrbsb says:

      Nice to see there is a known method of proving the car to pedestrian chase because I am not sure that historical GPS data, if there is any and it is moving data, will be accurate enough to pinpoint Trayvon’s or GZ’s exact movements in RATL as some appear to count on. Time will tell, and I hope it is but from what I read phone companies are only obliged to track 60% of calls within 100 meters and 95% within 300, so even if the data does exist these distances can mean the difference between walking along the dog walk or walking down RVC.

  14. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Humpty Liar sat on a wall.

    Humpty Liar had a great fall.

    All of O’mara’s tactics

    And all of West’s words

    Can’t make Humpty Liar

    Be innocent at all.

  15. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< hoodies up!

  16. colin black says:

    Teen to West: “Do you want me to shoot your baby?” #TrayvonMartin to #GeorgeZimmerman : You’re gonna die tonight Motherf**ker”

    Above is one of juniors tweets.
    Makeing comparisons between alleged baby killer an Trayvon rather than his brother the actuall alleged baby killer.Trayvon had been an always will have been his Parents Baby an was still a child when shot by foggagge .
    His self confessed killer/

    Now we no juniors not the sharpest tool but how can you even compare the two questions.
    Do you want meto shoot your baby is a question an he even punctuates a question mark.

    Now your going to die tonight mofo is a statement of intent .

    So where is the comparison ?
    Both are Black an both have middle fingers an my family is not raceist.
    What happened to his talk of dialouge of respect amongst all races diaribe from a couple of months ago.
    We need to engage with the Black community he tweeted.
    But suppose he was pissed that night an has forgot all about his peace an good will.

    So drunk that night its like when you turn to your worst enemey an drunkenly slur I love you

    • ladystclaire says:

      I hate this guy just as much as I hate his brother! I’ve read some where and I don’t remember where. but, it’s been said that Fogen and Jr are not half and half. they are 100% hispanic. no white running through their veins mixed in that ICE WATER, at all. as for this Afro-Peruvian crap, they can stick that as well.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Are there any legit photos of Trayvon and his middle fingers? I was under the impression that these had all been proven to be someone else.

      • kimmi says:

        IMO, that is just another example of a terrible photoshopped picture. If you look at the picture, it looks like the arms cannot be Trayvon’s. First of all, they don’t even looked attached to his body, and second, they look like they would have to be about 8′ long!

  17. colin black says:

    Thing is foggagge only to the point of excluseivivity tageted Black People usealyl children or teens an in there twentys.
    Before the houseing market crash most of the H O A whom lived there when the R T L First was built paid top dollar for there homes.

    After the crash 195 grand townhouse was worth 87 grand.
    Thats a huge hit to take in your finaces.
    And then you see others cutting an running takeing the loss an selling to new owners.
    That are paying a 3rd what you did for your exact same property.

    Enough to make your blood boil an if a lot of thease new buyers drawn by the chance to move into a gated comunity happen to be African Americans then what?

    Kind of circumstancess certain members of the H O A may have gave a raceist thug his head an free will to rein down a campaing of hate against this new demographic group.
    There the reason our propertys are crashing not the crooked bankers an fat cats that inflated the houseing market.

    No its this new demographics fault once we force them out then things will change.I didnt make a bad desision to buy when the market was over inflated.
    Theyre not smartter than me buying up at a third of the price oh the resentment bubbling in that complex must have been palpable.

    In order for evil to flourish then good people must do nothing.
    Or evil can flourish were good people are in the minority an bigots fueled by resentment are the majority.

    • Rachael says:

      And GZ didn’t even own his.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Yes, isn’t that a hoot? Some HOAs insist that only owners attend meetings. Moreover, they’d never let a renter worm their way into serious business like forming a neighborhood watch. The thinking is that only owners have sufficient financial stake for such decisions. Too bad R@TL board wasn’t smarter. Putting the clamps on Fogen before he got totally off on his Walter Mitty fantasy might have saved Trayvon’s life.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Rachael, and to think he had the audacity to call LE on the owner of his unit, who only came to collect his back rent money. this POS called LE on people for anything as if he as a law abiding goody two shoes. I’d just love to have the chance to really knock his empty head on concrete. what are you doing here? he should have been put in his place a long time ago.

      • willisnewton says:

        @ Trained Observer: Walter Mitty, the famous short story character who lived in a fantasy world of his own making had puppy biscuits in his hands, not a 9mm handgun with hollow point rounds loaded to the brim. But I like the analogy anyways.

    • Trained Observer says:

      This scenario has unfolded in complexes all over Florida (likely elsewhere, too) and yes, Colin, I think you’ve done an effective job of climbing into the defective brains of many of the RTL homeowners who bought too high and are about to get foreclosed on or be forced to sell too low. That would include Taffeey, yes?

      The ironic part is that whatever RTL unit owner financial or demographic concerns were on the night Trayvon was murdered … they failed to identify the scummiest predator in their midst, the biggest danger of all time for their complex — FOGEN.

      Hopefully some owners will get on the stand and spill what they know no matter what the consequence of potential civil litigation that will send HOA sky high.

      • Trained Observer says:

        HOA assessments sky high.

        Also, can someone update me on the backstory of Fogen not paying his rent … forcing his landlord toward foreclosure, and then somehow Fogen is telling cops all about his landlord’s financial woes? Is that correct?

        Also what about the part of having his mother’s power turned off? How did that go down?

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Trained Observer, AMEN and I so agree with your entire comment. and the thing about it is, that these people knew that Fogen was being aggressive with AA tenants and, they did nothing about him. it seems to me, that he had the mindset that black people did not have the means to be able to afford to live there. this IMO is why he asked the friend of the dude in the video, for proof that he owned a home there.

        He had some nerve and, he is lucky that he didn’t get his ass beat that day. he would have been so deserving of a beat down that day. as for Jr he had better watch his mouth!

      • Rachael says:

        What happened to my post? I left a post that told about when he turned his mom’s electricity off and locked the box. I’ll try again. Maybe I got caught in a filter.

        • cielo62 says:

          That was posted back in July 12, 2012. I believe since then we’ve heard from the middle eastern co- worker and the cousin. GZ is a pure racist. His NEN call displays that clearly.

          Sent from my iPod

      • Trained Observer says:

        Thanks, Rachael — on shutting off the electric and then LOCKING the box, how petty and vindictive! Fogen has been a menace and/or liability to just about everyone in his life for at least a decade. (The part from Osterman about Fogen not being “streetwise” is worth a guffaw. Maybe a new word should be invented — streetdumb.)

      • abbyj says:

        TO, it may stand to reason, as Colin suggests, that the RTL unit owners saw Fogen as their Great White Hope. Despite his not even being a property owner there, their, Fogen might just be the one who would reshift the demographics back to what they “believed” would restore their equity. So they were willing to let him use his thuggish, racist tactics to “clean the place up” for them, so to speak. That HOA will be paying a very big price for installing a human predator to restore their financial losses.

      • ladystclaire says:

        In reading the article from the link about, the SPD and HOA in an alliance to run AA tenants out of the neighborhood, I can believe that because, I’ve made reference to that myself. but, I hope this dude is wrong about Angela Corey being on this side of the defense, while praying with the family of the victim and assuring them that they would seek to find the truth in this case and, apply judgement to the defendant. I hope this is not true but, the way he tells this, it’s very believable.

    • Rachael says:

      Oh GOD that makes me SICK!!!! That is exactly what happened yesterday with that woman I talked to. I just cannot comprehend it!!!!

    • parrot says:

      I wonder if he is drunk tweeting … How can he possibly think that this buttresses his protestations that his brother and family are not racist bigots.

      • Rachael says:

        I’m sure he’s being “watched,” isn’t he? If that is really him, I sure hope at some point something gets done about it. If this isn’t racism, I don’t know what is!

      • Jun says:

        Fogen has molested his cousin and attempted to rape her

        Robert Zimmerman Jr is his brother



        I applied the same logic as Junior LMAO

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        Parrot, maybe in his subconscious , he wants fogen busted & in jail.

    • type1juve says:

      What Robert Jr doesn’t realize is that he would be hard pressed to find a teenager of ANY race who does not have a fb pic of them flipping the bird… that’s how they express themselves now, they think it’s cool and they do it. His racist, convoluted thinking is what got his brother in the situation he’s in now.

      • Rachael says:

        EXACTLY – Do you know what? *I* have one even!!!! My son was taking a picture of me when I didn’t want to be so I flipped a bird. BFD!!!!

        But aside from that, have you seen teen face book stuff? The thing is, supposedly this judge works with teens so hopefully she will know that.

      • ladystclaire says:

        THANK YOU! flipping the middle finger is not something that is exclusive to AA kids. this is one sick A’hole and, he would do good to zip his lip. if his family is racist, they are racist. by him trying to prove that they are not, is making it obvious that they are.

    • Jun says:

      Robert Zimmerman Jr


      Garbage Can at the back of a restaurant


      • Rachael says:


      • rayvenwolf says:

        Hey now. Garbage from restaurants goes to feed pigs in some area after being cooked to death. Jr is not fit to become part of the human food chain. Or that rat & vermin food chain either for that matter.

    • elcymoo says:

      @Trained Observer:

      I just started to post a link to the Mediaite article about RZ Jr’s vile tweet. When I first saw that article, there were only 6 comments posted; when I checked it a few minutes ago, there were way over 200 and growing as I watched. I only read a few, but more and more of them seemed to be attacking Trayvon, his parents and liberals in general.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Pimping is a good term for Jr.’s misrepresentations.

  18. ladystclaire says:

    Can someone tell me what Fogen thought he could accomplish by going to see Angela Corey. did he think he could actually lie his way out of this by going to see her? this dude is really out in left field and, from the looks of it, so is his entire family.

    • Judy75201 says:


    • Trained Observer says:

      Exaggerated sense of self-importance and a history of lying his way out of trouble with teachers, employers and others??? Or was he egged on by Pops, or maybe even Wolfinger? I’d bet on first rather than latter two, but you never know. Ego for all three must be off the charts.

    • willisnewton says:

      George was handled by Serino and Singleton of the SPD in a manner I’d call “good cop/ good cop.” Both tried to be amicable and played to his vanity and let him think they were his “buddies.” This was not because they believed him, it was because this attitude kept George “cooperating” by continuing to make multiple statements without a lawyer present, after being advised of his right to refuse to answer any questions without a lawyer present.

      Let me just say this now – anyone, ESPECIALLY innocent people, but anyone, anyone is a fool if you let the cops question you without a lawyer present. They are NOT your friends, no matter how many times they let you go to the bathroom or buy you a cola from a vending machine. They are doing their job, which is to get you to talk yourself into a criminal conviction.

      George bought the routine hook line and sinker. He was a fool for giving so many statements, as it became very cleat quickly that he was pushing a false narrative and telling a story that was fraught with inconsistencies, critical omissions and clear contradictions.

      One thing he was tricked with was the “voice stress test,” which is a useless and pointless exercise that proves NOTHING and is never admissible in a court of law. George agreed to the test because he thought the cops were believing his lies, and his ego told him that he could and should “talk his way out of this one” since the cops were seemingly sympathetic to his plight. The real and true purpose of the voice stress test was to get George to run through his whole (false) narrative one more time with as little interruption as possible. The “test taker” was simply a new interrogator, but one whose job it was to feign disinterest as he asked George “on background” to relate his tale so the test taker could “set up the voice stress machine.”

      Notice that “as they waited for the tester” the cops also let GZ sit around for a long quiet period with detective Singleton. This too is a deliberate session of evidence-gathering that detectives use on a regular basis – put the guy at ease but do anything to keep him from calling a lawyer -just keep him making statements.

      She’s being mostly quiet so that he will KEEP talking to fill the uncomfortable silence. It’s here that he made the telling remarks about how “suspects” need to respond to “authority” but that he thinks Singleton “doesn’t have to worry” about that since she has such a commanding presence, or whatever it is that he says exactly. I’m paraphrasing a bit here, but it was a telling moment and I predict will be shown to the jury as part of the overall portrait the prosecution is going to paint to color him as a wanna-be authority figure who had no legal right to profile and pursue a teen to the point where the child fled in terror, and then for GZ to leave his vehicle with a loaded weapon and continue on foot after him into the proverbial “dark alley.”

      Whatever the reason the police let him go home that first night, Serino made certain that GZ was going to “keep cooperating.” Letting him go home was a gamble, but one that paid off well since the next day GZ cooperated AGAIN without having a lawyer present and did a “re-eneactment” for the detectives that was less than credible, and again made for several very telling moments that could be presented to a jury to show his lack of credibility at the least. George told provable lies about where he pulled over his car and how his car ended up near the cut thru when he got out of it and started following the teen. Then he massively contradicted his many earlier accounts when he suddenly added the “I must have stumbled” portion of the account of the “first punch” that may or may not have even happened. Each time he’d previously spoke of this alleged blow to his face, he described things like falling backwards, and how he was knocked IMMEDIATELY to the ground before “Trayvon mounted him” as George alleges the teen did. Suddenly George has to insert a 40 foot “stumble” right in the middle of where he wished he could again claim he was knocked to the ground where he stood.

      Keep in mind if George had waited for his lawyer to be present, the lawyer would likely advise him to make ONE statement that was carefully crafted and then to refuse to cooperate any further. I’m not certain about this but imagine if GZ had called a lawyer and kept his mouth mostly shut. He may have spent a few nights in jail, but it would be more difficult to impeach his credibility, a key component of his upcoming murder trial. He may have even avoided a trial altogether. His own words are what is going to sink his ship.

      After the “re-enactment” the detectives confronted him about his inconsistencies in the harshest session of questioning, but as you listen to the recording keep in mind they are careful to frame their disbelief and harsh questions by mentioning the need for George to “keep his story straight for later” essentially as if what was happening contemporaneously was his “cop buddies” leading him down the path to freedom and insider treatment. They don’t QUITE pull off the whole ruse of buddy-buddy, partially because his lies are too difficult to swallow but also because George is so suspicious and guarded in his words. But the detectives still act as though “this is all just so we can set the record straight” and that George is “gonna be fine probably” etc.

      Never do the SPD detectives posture that they are “holding him for questioning.” It’s always that they are “allowing him to make a statement,” or some such polite way of putting things, as though his cooperation is helping them seal the fate of the dead “suspect” who “attacked” him. This is how “good cop/ good cop” works.

      Someone in the SPD made the call that George “should be handled with kid gloves” and also let go to sleep in his own bed. It was a pragmatic decision since at the beginning the detectives saw they lacked a good witness to the events from start to finish and that GZ killed the only other person who they thought heard the start of the fight. Keep in mind they had yet to learn that TM was on the phone at the time the fight started.

      The fact that George kept in touch with Serino while he was out and not facing a grand jury or criminal charges is a sign that Serino had gained some measure of his trust. Before GZ called Angela Corey he also had been speaking with Serino. I am guessing its likely GZ asked Serino something obsequious like “do you think it might be a good idea if I were to call the state’s attorney and let them know (what a good boy I am) etc?” Serino knew he was pretty much off the case by then but tried to keep the “good cop” ruse going.

      Recall the two clown lawyers who weren’t really his lawyers? I also am guessing one of both of them, idiots that they were, knew enough to try to advise George of the folly of trying to consider Angela Corey his new buddy. Whatever the timing and whomever was advising George, he didn’t get his chance to cozy up to the special prosecutor because the state wisely refused to see him at all until he retained a lawyer. He called Corey but she wouldn’t take that call IIRC.

      So in answer to the question, “what was he thinking when he tried to see Corey?” I’d say the guess is probably right that he still felt like he could talk his way out the jam he was in. (SO far, so good, he felt.) He’d killed the only real witness to his car-to-pedestrian chase and was fairly sure no one saw how the physical altercation began. Somehow he’d gotten the lucky break of having someone, Shellie probably, move his car away before it could be searched or its location noted. (which way was it facing? He could be lying about that but we don’t know, and we may never know.)

      His arrogance is staggering, but his gullibility is as well. IMO Serino did a good job of “handling” George. He may have made other mistakes but in this regard his strategy was a wise one. And the special prosecutor made the wise call that despite George possibly being willing to come make more “statements” that he’s been given enough rope to hang himself with already. They knew the statements he’d given the SPD and they felt they had enough already to paint him as the two-bit liar that he is.

      If Serino ever gets a book deal, I’ll buy his book. He’d got things to answer for, but keep in mind he looked into GZ’s eyes and read his body language, heard his story, walked the grounds with him and then looked again into his eyes as George was confronted with the NEN call recording and several of his contradictory statements. If anyone in the world knows whether or not to believe GZ it’s detective Chris Serino, who wanted to charge him with murder and was willing to settle for manslaughter but NEVER felt GZ was in the clear.

      • Rachael says:


      • Patricia says:

        @willis excellent post! I have always thought serino and singleton did the best job under the circumstances. Also, as far as the witnesses he was critiqued as witness tampering or whatever but I thought he did a cop tactic with the teacher as being credible to see if she stuck to her story and she did. Same with Selma and Mary . These witnesses were treated like George was the poor victum . Fogen had a crap load of paper
        Trail between lake mary police and sanford. His hunting trail started at daddy’s house, first eviction, second eviction which was 8/29/09 @ 2621 RVC very close to Brandi Greens house. Then he rented 1950 RVC . He and She”L”lie ( stands for the L shape on Trayvons shirt that Her gun blew a hole in trayvons heart), THE GUN!! He’s the shooter and she’s the gun! Then you have the 3 stooges Bill Lee ,Morganstern and patty mahany
        On national Tv looking like angry birds that fogens the victim .
        I also think serino made a good move getting Baez as a lawyer,balances the circus players.
        I have faith in Judge Nelson to run her courtroom ,standing her ground!

      • parrot says:

        Excellent post!

      • blushedbrown says:


        Excellent post.

    • abbyj says:

      Lady, I’ve always enjoyed your comments over at that firestorm of a thread on HP, and the same is true of your comments here with the Professor. What did Fogen think he could accomplish in demanding an audience with Corey? It had everything to do with the distorted image he’s had of himself. He’d come to believe that he is very special, a celebrated figure.

      Do you recall that Barbara Walters took an entire crew to Florida, and Fogen would NOT agree to an interview unless she coughed up a month of free hotel accommodations and expenses for him and his wife? Walters told him NO, packed up, and left him whistling in the wind. So what did he do? He phoned her directly and told her he wanted to have a live telephone interview with her, on a special program, with an audience to interact with. She told him NO again.

      He lacks the capacity to see himself as he really is: a child killer. Maybe recently, harsh reality has begun to set in, but until just the last month or so, he honestly believed he was a famous cultural figure. Delusional. That, IMO, is why he drove to see Corey. He was famous and important! He could request command performances.

      • Xena says:

        In late March, Serino called GZ twice to meet saying that there were further questions. He wanted GZ to arrange it with his attorneys. GZ agreed to meet with Serino in Jacksonville but apparently did not tell Sonner. That was around the last week of March 2012.

        On April 6, 2012, GZ’s attorney in a civil case apprised the court that the bankruptcy trustee in the Aames case (who GZ was suing) had issued a check to GZ (a bit over $18,000) in July 2011, and that GZ had not paid fees and costs from the money.

        That same day, as provided by the Credit Union statements, GZ was in Maryland. Osterman said that GZ stayed with them about 6 weeks, so the timing coincides. Also that same day, ShelLIE made a $135 transaction at the U.S. Postal Service in Lake Mary, FL. Dave, who posts to this blog, found that $135 is the exact amount for a new passport.

        That weekend, GZ setup his begging site. The money donated was not significant. That following Monday, Sonner held a press conference announcing that GZ failed to return their calls and they were withdrawing representation.

        Corey gave a hour time-line for holding a press conference announcing the results of her investigation. It’s my impression that Corey was informed that GZ was coming into Jacksonville, and she wanted him in custody before holding the press conference BECAUSE ….

        Frank Taafee told Dave Knechle (Dave video taped it) that GZ arrived in Jacksonville to meet with Jose Baez. For whatever reason, Baez did not agree to represent GZ. GZ then drove to Corey’s office.

        I can’t put my hands on the article now, but it was reported that GZ wanted to talk to Corey about providing him with protection. At that point, he had very little money (the bulk of the donations came in after his arrest), and no place to live. Corey gave him a cell.

      • willisnewton says:

        Great work, Xena, thank you for the excellent timeline of Fogens’ missing weeks. The picture is fairly clear, isn’t it when one sees all the facts and has them arranged in chronological order. Three cheers for hard working bloggers who put in the time to arrange the puzzle pieces instead of going with the surface impressions in this case.

        But for the GPS monitoring device secured to his person, GZ would have left jail on bond the first time with the means, motive and opportunity to flee the country with his wife and six figures of cash, with the promise of more coming in until his absence was noted by the court.

        Besides proximity, perhaps one reason he never met in person with the two clownish lawyers who “quit” on him was because he wanted to set up a relationship where they would take his calls as proof he was still in the USA. That way he’d have as much of a head start as possible in his flight from justice.

        It’s impossible to know how his mind works, but it’s quite possible to connect the dots on the timeline Xena just posted and see a picture of a desperate man who isn’t behaving normally, nor is he behaving like an innocent man who fears a wrongful conviction, either IMO. His clear lack of genuine remorse speaks volumes as well.

        • Xena says:


          But for the GPS monitoring device secured to his person, GZ would have left jail on bond the first time with the means, motive and opportunity to flee the country with his wife and six figures of cash, with the promise of more coming in until his absence was noted by the court.


          …nor is he behaving like an innocent man who fears a wrongful conviction, either IMO. His clear lack of genuine remorse speaks volumes as well.

          I agree. GZ did not leave his home in the wee hours of the morning on 2/27/12 after leaving the police station because he feared wrongful conviction or retaliation. He didn’t know who Trayvon was until he interviewed with Serino about 3 days later.

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      Ladystclaire, yup, he did think he could lie his way out. The dumbass!

    • Malisha says:

      I believe he wanted to broker a deal with Corey: “You agree not to charge me with a crime and I’ll tell Dershowitz not to take away your law license, OK?”

  19. parrot says:

    Please have that checked by a doctor.

  20. ladystclaire says:

    Sorry guys, I don’t know why that link to the video on you tube is saying the video is not available but, it is. I just log back into that very link which I gave here and, it is there. it’s by Sanford Watch and it was published yesterday 03/23/13. Fogen’s goose is cooked.

  21. Last night I got a nosebleed. I was not hit, bumped, slammed, dragged, and I did not fall. I was washing my hands at the bathroom sink, and my nose stated gushing. Pressure did not help. It was the worst nosebleed I have ever had. Blood was everywhere, the sink floor, the soaked towel, even the walls, for God;s sake. It continued off and on for two days. My face was pretty much covered in blood, there was blood on my arms, my clothes…. It was like a faucet, set to warm. After this I am absolutely 100 percent sure that GZ did not suffer anything even close to the so-called minute of head slamming he described. His story is a lie, and not even a good one. It’s day two and I am still swallowing blood.

    Those little blood streaks on his head are not even in the ball park. Not even close.

    • ladystclaire says:

      That’s sounds serious, are you alright? I hope you are and, I think you need to see a doctor in order to get behind the cause of a nose bleed such as that. a nose bleed like that can sometime signal HBP and, they have saved the lives of some people who never knew that had it.

      • Thank you, probably a good idea, a couple of others have suggested it. It was really bizarre. I mean, I wasn’t even doing anything. Very strange

        . But made me think, that man, Zimmerman, did not have any serious issue with his nose. Crazy story.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Please take care of this and yourself OK. I don’t know you but, I care about you so, just be on the safe side and see your doctor. Love Ya, Lady

    • William Walton says:

      Crane, I had the same thing because of my allergies. My Dad who was physician would treat it and it would heal. However, as he would state nose bleeds can be a symptom of high blood pressure. So, you should have it checked out. Your comment about GZ’s nose bleed is most relevent since the nose bleeds more profusely that what was seen. Also the abrasions on his head would also warrant the same obsevation.

    • Trained Observer says:

      C-S … Agreed on Fogen, and his lack of injury and/or blood. But in your case, this needs to be checked out, unless you can come up with some sort of reason — recent flight in an unpressurized aircraft, dramatic descent from Pikes Peak, scuba off Biscayne Bay with iffy equipment, etc. . Again, please have it checked out. Better to have a qualified physician tell you it’s nothing than to just ignore, although the latter is tempting for all of us.

      • Thanks, and in my case it is BP, but it really made me think how incredibly fake the fogen ‘injury’ looked. Hell, my son and I did a way better job than that one year at Halloween, with Cinema Secrets makeup. I love Halloween, so I had a screwdriver through my head, and using what I know about head injuries, I made this thing look so real that it actually scared the hell out of some little-kid trick-or-treaters. I also, like went to the store and crap like that, actually eliciting gasps, oh-my-gods, and are-you-really-hurt. Great fun. But, I had the blackened eyes that were missing from GZ, among other things., Like, the blood was flowing in the right direction.

        GZ wouldn’t scare a flea.

      • The other thing that I realized, or rather the other reason I realized his story is BS is that by instinct the first thing anyone does (I did) is try to put pressure, or pinch the nose, or, the other thing is, swipe a sleeve, grab the end of a shirt, in my case I grabbed the handiest towel available, just any sort of handy cloth…to stop the flow. People do this without thinking, and GZ had no blood on his hand or clothing. Just nothing at all. Life threatening? Pfffffft.

      • Malisha says:

        Trained O, another reason that might account for CS’s nosebleed is if somebody called her “homie” — did that happen?

    • @Crane-Station

      I hope you see a doctor about the nose bleed. We just want you to be safe.

      • Thank you SouthernGirl, and I think it will resolve with blood pressure medication.

        • Crane…..what are you taking for your BP? I take Norvasc myself.

          Never had the nose bleed thing tho…….What sets off my BP is anger.

          • Toprol. (metoprolol). I have taken it in the past, but quit being compliant and stopped taking it several years ago. It may have been due to the fact that there was no real medical care when I was incarcerated and I never pursued the follow up after my release. That was a mistake. So, when I had the severe nosebleed I was not taking a blood pressure med at all.

      • looneydoone says:

        I take Hyzaar
        One has to be careful with it as it raises glucose levels in some patients.

        Yep, MountainManPat…my BP soars when I’m angered. I save glass containers to throw against the block wall outside. It helps to dissipate my feelings of rage 😉

    • Xena says:

      OMG! Do you have dry humidity?

    • kllypyn says:

      You may want to have yourself checked out i knew a guy with a simular problem.he ended up in the hospital for a week.

  22. SpecialladyT says:

    Jr is tweeting this unfathomable comparison to Trayvon Martin. I am beyond speechless.

    Robert Zimmerman Jr ‏@rzimmermanjr 37m
    @NAACP @benshapiro @NRA Alleged FBpics of 13mo. old Antonio Santiago’s alleged killer & #TrayvonMartin #uncanny
    Hide photo Reply Retweet Favorite More

    • Mike says:

      Sigh, SMDH. That makes me uncomfortably angry.

    • Rachael says:

      OMG, OMG!!!!!

    • I spent a while a few days ago looking at the twitters he tweets with, and for lack of more polite description, sort of looks like a small group of obsessed stalkers, just my .02.,

    • Xena says:

      Junior has a sense of elitism, superiority in his words. He’s not doing his brother any favors because Junior is clearly racial prejudiced.

    • Malisha says:

      OMG Robert Zimmerman Jr. is an almost inconceivable moron!

      His brother put those false words (“You’re gonna die tonight MFer”) into Trayvon’s mouth exactly BECAUSE he and his brother (Junior) believe that stuff like that defines young Black men, so that would naturally be what Trayvon Martin would have said — if any of it were true.

      Saying, “these false words that were not spoken to me, but that I attributed to my victim, whom I called ‘the suspect,’ in my police report after killing him, are similar to real words spoken by someone else to a third (really fourth) party and therefore, my victim, a/k/a ‘the suspect,’ is equivalent to the OTHER person who spoke OTHER words to ANOTHER person” is practically a psychiatric definition of crazythink.

      Bottom line, all the extraneous nonsense removed, here’s what we have:

      Fogen thought it was OK to kill Trayvon Martin because there actually are some young Black men who are criminals.

      Junior thought it was OK to try to prove that Trayvon Martin was a criminal because some other young alleged criminal said aggressive words.

      We really SHOULD lock them both up and throw away the keys. Fogen is an alleged criminal already and I suspect Junior will soon be another.

  23. ladystclaire says:

    Good eveningZimmerman’s Unknown Character Witnesss, check out this video on you tube, Zimmerman’s Unknown Character Witness @ this is an interesting video by Sanford Watch. Fogen actually thought he was the law in that neighborhood and his tactics should have been stopped a long time ago. the SPD as well as the HOA allowed this to happen by not reining this dangerous heathen in when complaints were made about him.

    • Rachael says:

      It must have hit a nerve. When I go there it says that video is not available.

      • Xena says:

        When I tried with Firefox, it was unavailable. I then tried with Chrome and the video came up without a problem. There may be something happening with Flash in Firefox.

        Let’s see if this works.

      • Rachael says:

        Yeah. It worked. What are you doing here – Where have we heard that before? And asking for proof, which I swear is part of what Trayvon is crying about in the background, GZ was asking for proof and Trayvon didn’t have any. But that is, of course, my opinion.

        This trial can’t come soon enough.

      • ladystclaire says:

        What are you doing here? as if he is the high sheriff of the county. I’m really surprised that he didn’t really get a punch in his nose for REAL. he had no right what so ever to be going up to AA or anybody else, asking them that question.

        But he seemed partial to just asking AA that question. his mother taught him to be suspicious of AA as well as, letting him know that he was superior to them as well. I’m not buying this Afro-Peruvian BS at all. this is a guise just to make people believe that they are not what they are and, that is that they are RACIST. anytime you have to go to the lengths that Jr is going through to disprove something, IMO you are the thing that you are trying so hard to convince others that you are not.

      • Rachael says:

        DD heard him ask what are you doing here, one of the witnesses heard him ask that too.

        It is apparently his MO.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Fogen really had some nerve as to ask AA who lived in that neighborhood, what are you doing here? and for him to actually go so far as to go to this man’s home, that was too much. he had no right what so ever to do something like that.

        He did not want AA living in his neighborhood and, that is obvious. how many white or hispanic home owners did he do this to?

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Rachael, this trial can’t come soon enough for me either. I’m just hoping Fogen will be sent to prison for the rest of his life. it’s really sad to know what this kid went through at the hands of this POS and then for him to lie on him as well, that is just too much. who ever helped Fogen come up with his multitudes of lies, well they ought to be locked up as well.

        I read a comment from a Trayvon warrior on HP, who said Fogen talked to Taaffe before the shooting and, to Osterman after the shooting. he also sent text and emails that contained racist remarks as well as bragging about getting away with it.

        Oh yea, he actually thought he had skirted the long arm of the law once again. those sealed phone calls, text messages and emails, are the things I can’t wait to see. then he had the nerve to drive all the way to Jacksonville to try to talk/LIE his way out of his crime with the lady who charged him with M2. it’s so funny that he drove himself right into an arrest. LMAO

        • cielo62 says:

          Ladystclaire- yes, seeing GZ just drive directly to his arrest was such a delicious irony. And you KNOW he was going to try to sweet talk his way out of trouble. Still I don’t understand. What was the gun and knife he had in the rental actually for??-

          Sent from my iPod

      • Rachael says:

        Yes, ladystclaire, THAT was a good one.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Wow … the unknown witness is devastating. Assuming he’s legit, this shows a pattern of harrassment on Fogen’s part. The nerve of demanding proof of any kind of identity … all the more so while declining to identify himself as neighborhood watch or just a vigilent neighbor. And there’s a big difference between being vigilent and being a vigilante.

      Not sure but the unknown witness, while very well spoken, may have gum in his mouth, and I’d recommend that he ditch it before taking the stand. Gum rarely enhances anyone’s credibility or authority, and is best used for comic effect in movies.J ust my opinion.

    • Malisha says:

      ladysc, I know that someone from HOA had made multiple complaints to the police about Fogen; the police buried those complaints and empowered an armed and dangerous loser with a “little hero complex.” [quoting Serino]

      I could not access the YouTube video, though.

      I sure as Hell hope they put up a character witness for Fogen. Oh please please please, oh pleeeeeeeeeeeease!!! 😀

  24. William Walton says:

    Rachael, from your writings you appear to be an intellectual person. Unfortunately it appears some of the people you have corresponded with are not. As an intellectual, one cannot take personally what another person/people say or disagree with them. You walk away and let them dwell in their own ignorance because you will not convert them into being intellectuals. My favorite reason for doing so is a quote from Lincoln: “You can fool all the people some of the time, some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.” As a funny example, my daughter when she graduated A&M with a degree in Chemistry, I sent her a congradulation email and referred to her as my “Baby Chemist.” My degrees are in Chemistry and Chemical Engineering. However, my daughter did not find my comment amusing as she thought we were equals. Informed her that I had many more years experience and had authored many patents. When she was writing her thesis for her Masters Degree in Chemistry she sent me an email saying she was tied up interpretating her analytical data and asked if I would do her literature search for her signing the email; Love You, Your Baby Chemist. So, one should dwell on that they themselves have a sense of humour and can dwell in the sense of reality

    • Rachael says:

      I don’t know that I’m an intellectual, but I’m semi-intelligent. And I do have a sense of humor. I just don’t find anything particularly funny about racism.

      • William Walton says:

        Rachael, as I was stating about being an intellectual/intelligent person, one has to not take personaly what others think. No matter how much one tries, they will never change the minds of these people because they are stuck in that mind set. I understand where you are coming from having been in the same boat trying to educate engineers, Finally came to the conclusion that they could live in their own ignorance.

      • Rachael says:

        I understand what you are saying and I agree, but I’m not trying to educate anyone, because like you said, sometimes you just can’t. But I can’t totally separate myself from it – not them, but it. I DO find racism personally offensive. I can walk away from people who are racist, but how do you walk away from racism?

        • William Walton says:

          Rachael, you can never walk away from racism because there are too many people who live in that illiterate world. All one can do is to frustrate them by living in a world that embraces all people, cultures, and, all humanity.

    • In my head, I agree with you. Since I couldn’t cut Organic Chemistry with Calculus, I opted for the Biology degree (the Biochem midterm was literally forged in the fires of Hell), but anyway in my heart, I still love to tell people to go get fucked and piss up a rope. Progress, not perfection, right? Good comment and perspective, thank you.

      PS: Lots of chemists in my family. I am the black sheep. I never really could quite ‘get’ it.These people collect degrees for sport, the latest one has a 4.0 from Rose-Hulman, that chemical engineering school where you get your ass handed to you every
      day, LOL.

  25. kllypyn says:

    It would have been physically impossible for Trayvon to have done what he claims.IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SLAM A PERSONS HEAD ONTO A HARD SURFACE WHEN THEY ARE ABLE TO FIGHT BACK. ZIMMURDEPUNK WAS NOT INJURED IN ANYWAY..The only way trayvon could have done what he claims is if he laid there and let him do it.obviously that didn’t happen. The fact he had no defensive wounds proves Trayvon never touched will defend yourself or try to when someone beats you up. Trayvon couldn’t beat him up even if he tried he was a typical teenager with no special fighting skills no martial arts training,no special fighting training at all.he had average teenage strength.he had no hope of prevailing against a 200lb former bouncer alone or without a weapon.he was not strong enough to prevail against Zimmerman.The fact he could not break free from zimmerpunk before he was shot dead proves it.His last desperate screams prove he was trying to escape but couldn’t. It should be more than obvious by now that Trayvon made no effort to defend himself at all he just tried to get away. DNA shows Trayvon never touched him. Those injuries on the back of his head came from a metal object, that there is debris on the back of trayvon’s hoodie and nothing on Zimmermans jacket. prove trayvon was on his back for most of the confrontation. i believe he was able to get to his feet prior to his death.which may be why zimmerpunk grabbed his hoodie to keep him from escaping. He had trayvon restrained by his shirts when he snuffed out his life. Zimmerpunk accidentally told the truth a number of times during his various statements including his reenactments when he demonstrated how he killed trayvon. He showed he was standing when he fired his gun. He didn’t point his gun down at the ground he pointed it straight in front of him. during his video statement he fully extends his arm as he shows how he killed trayvon. despite his claims he was mounted and being beaten when he killed trayvon. i believe those scratches to his face were cause by him stumbling through bushes or past trees during his pursuit and search for Trayvon. There is never a justification for killing an unarmed person.especially a kid. He was the adult he had the weight advantage the strength advantage. If he was attacked the way he claims a punch to the jaw would have solved the problem. Trayvon was no match for him. We know that he has lied about everything,all to justify the murder of an innocent 17 year old. He knows he wasn’t the one screaming for help so does his lawyers. He put Trayvon through hell before he killed him. He interrogated him and terrorized him before killing him. first being careful not to shoot his own hand. He specifically aimed almost dead center of Trayvon’s chest,he wanted to make sure trayvon would die.He knew hollow point bullets would cause the maximum amount of damage. He cared nothing about trayvon’s cries. He cared nothing about him begging to live. He killed him anyway. he has the history of violence and bullying people and harassing people but he continues to play the victim. he was not the victim.Trayvon was the one begging for his life. Trayvon was the one who ended up in an early grave.Trayvon was the one who was followed and pursued. not him. He should have left Trayvon alone. he was the aggressor not Trayvon. Chasing people is an aggressive act. He wants to claim self defense at his trial..I hope that means he will be required to testify. K.D.P.

    • All it took for me to say “No Fucking Way” was to look at my own nosebleed the other night. I told Fred, “Hey. Check this out. Look at my face, my shirt, my hands, the sink, the floor, the wall (yes!) and my shoes. And this here soaked towel. Look at these things and tell me that George Zimmerman got his head slammed, even one time.”

      Didn’t happen.

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        Crane & Prof, this is in response to the remarks about donations, I used to visit democratic underground a lot. They had donation drives that lasted a certain amount of days twice a year & they would “sell” tokens you could give to whomever you wanted of the other posters, like valentines, or in the fall Halloween pictures of pumpkins or other appropriate icons, I can’t remember the other perks but, It was kind of fun. I don’t know if that would work. Maybe for certain amounts you could give autographs or something , idk, also, maybe a law school would put some ads on your blog. Just racking my brain a little to see if anything good shakes out. I will donate in a couple days.

  26. Judy75201 says:

    I hope you are getting enough donations to support this site, Prof. Fred. I do mine around the first of the month, and have no plans to stop (unless I lose my job and end up homeless, as has happened once).

    • I receive less than a dollar per hour spent working this blog. I’m going to have to do something because this isn’t cutting it.

      • parrot says:

        What do you mean by “something”? Close the blog down?

      • Judy75201 says:

        Then I am glad I brought it up. Do what you must. And readers/posters, please consider donating regularly.

      • KA says:


        Thank you for bringing this up. We do need to support more faithfully. The value of this blog is worth far more than one can pay. I think together doing what we can, we can make things more comfortable for Prof. Leatherman.

      • On that note, I have often said, and I do believe that advertising is a fact of life. If other bloggers have used advertising, how did you guys go about it? I asked a family member who owns his own company, but he works in some sort of data type area, and did not have any suggestions.

  27. parrot says:


    “Am I being irrational? Perhaps”.

    Sheesh!! How can you even suggest that?? You are NOT the one who is irrational!!

  28. Rachael says:

    This should probably go under the irrational post, but I don’t know if anyone is still posting there. I got really upset yesterday when someone I knew pulled an outhouse. Well, I don’t really know her. She was someone on Facebook.

    Now let me tell you, all the people who are “friends” on FB are actually really friends or family, some way back from high school – except this one. She is the sister-in-law of a friend of mine and my friend thought her SIL could answer a question for me, told me to friend her and ask my question. So I did. I could tell right away that we have different political views, but that’s okay. I can live with that. I have quite a few friends who don’t share my views. So after she answered my question, I just left her as a friend, occasionally we would “like” someone one or the other of us posted and I try not to post anything obscene or political, so no problem.

    Well like I said, yesterday she pulled an outhouse. She posted that story about the 2 young males who shot a lady and killed her baby and did what the outhouse does, found a way to tie it into Trayvon. She said something like look at what Obama’s sons have done now, where is he now, why isn’t he saying these kids could be his sons or something. Whatever it was, it was awful and very outhousy.

    I got furious and said how DARE she compare that with What happened between Trayvon and GZ and what was her deal with the president and why would she even do that unless it is because they are black. I was absolutely FURIOUS. I can’t even remember exactly what I said, but I then went on to say that Trayvon did NOT have a gun, Trayvon was NOT the one with a criminal history, a past of chasing down people, harassing people and like the baby shot in the head, Trayvon was shot through the heart and it was NOT self-defense, and to go around comparing criminal activity of all black male youth and put it on Travyon is totally racist.

    I immediately deleted her as a friend, which wasn’t too hard, but knowing she is a sister-in-law of a friend of mine made it feel too close. I just don’t get it. What is the rationale of people pointing to all young black male activity and blaming it Trayvon – or saying that was Trayvon? How do they not see what they are doing? Does every male dentist take advantage of female patients when they are anesthetized because one has done it? Do all people with “mental illness” shoot up movie theaters? Do all people with tattoos ride motorcycles and do drugs? Do all Chinese people own laundries? Are all Hispanics illegally in the US? WTF?!!!

    Sorry this is so long, but I have been so upset about it since yesterday. She actually answered me, but I don’t care to see what she has to say. Am I being irrational? Perhaps. I know communication is important, but I am too angry to communicate effectively right now. This issue is very important to me. There are so many reasons. Corruption, racial issues, being a parent and how I would feel. I can’t talk with her right now.

    • Judy75201 says:

      It’s racism, pure and simple. I’m glad you deleted her as a friend. The day and way of the racist is over, and it’s time they got that message loud and clear. Just my opinion, of course.

    • parrot says:

      She probably has never had someone call her out on this. She will think twice next time.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I am so glad you posted your “encounter” here, Rachael.

      I am very concerned about the irrationality, stereotyping, and false comparisons that so many people are engaged in.

      And it seems to only be increasing and snowballing. It needs to be stopped.

    • There isn’t anything irrational or inappropriate about what you said and the passion with which you said it.

      People who make incredibly stupid and racist statements like that deserve to be smacked down hard.

    • I wouldn’t worry a whole lot about the irrational sister in law of a friend. I have to sometimes bite my tongue around my irrational sister in law (only sister of my husband) but I think your perfectly right to tell a facebook “friend” what you think. It irritates the heck out of me how these zimbots try to drag president Obama into every case that includes a young black male. it’s time to grow up

    • Xena says:

      @Rachael. Remember back around 1994-95, a woman reported a car-jacking with her children in the car and said a Black man did it? The truth is that she did it herself because she wanted a relationship with a man who did not want children.

      On television, I saw the mother of the infant that was killed, and her body language and tone reminds me of the other woman. In passing on the news, I heard her say that another child had been taken from her. IMO, there is more behind the story.

      • Rachael says:

        She had an 18-year-old son who was stabbed to death about 5 years ago – supposedly in self-defense. There may be more behind the story, but that is not the point. I know family is saying it wasn’t them. I don’t really know much of the story. My point is though, it is just another example of “see, a black kid did this so it proves Trayvon is a thug.”

      • Plantain Republic says:

        @ Xena
        This mom does have that Susan Smith vibe going on. I got the exact same impression of her. I wonder if she has life insurance policies on her childrenm or has Munchausen syndrome by proxy. We’ll just have to watch how this unfolds.

        • Xena says:

          @Plantain Republic

          This mom does have that Susan Smith vibe going on. I got the exact same impression of her. I wonder if she has life insurance policies on her childrenm or has Munchausen syndrome by proxy. We’ll just have to watch how this unfolds.

          It’s reported that two teens have been arrested. Still, there is something about West’s story body language that doesn’t jive. Why kill the baby but leave the mother alive with a non life-threatening gunshot wound? That is what bothers me about her story.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, Oh how I remember that case very well and. there have been many more cases like it where, a black man did it, when they actually did it themselves. didn’t the woman in California who killed her baby daughter about 4 or 5 years ago claim that a black man took her baby and knocked her out, then they actually found the baby’s body not far from where she was parked in her car? If I make no mistake, she blamed a black man also.

        Then there was the case of the white woman who said that a black woman threw lye in her face and, it was later found out that she did this to herself. OH YES, there have been many many more cases like this. A BLACK MAN DID IT. this is racist as well as BS.

      • Rachael says:

        There was some teenager here who skipped school and when they couldn’t find her, she later said she was taken by a black male and finally admitted that she lied so she wouldn’t get in trouble.

        Yeah, it does happen all the time and I don’t know why. I mean if you are going to make up a story, why does it always have to be a black guy? Is that somehow more believable? I FUCKING HATE THAT SHIT!!!!!

        ooops sorry. lost control.

        • Xena says:

          @Rachael. Remember in 2008 that a girl carved a “B” on her face and said a Black guy did it and told her to vote for Obama? The “B” was backwards, evidencing that she was looking in the mirror when cutting herself.

      • Rachael says:

        Thank you for posting those blushedbrown. And no Xena, I don’t remember that one. I really don’t know that I can understand this or ever come to terms with it. There has to be some way to stop it. There just has to be.

        • Xena says:


          There has to be some way to stop it. There just has to be.

          Truth? It will stop when there are no longer any Blacks in the White House, in the Presidential cabinet, Congress, state and local political positions. It will stop when Blacks are no longer on television unless it’s comedy. It will stop when Blacks no longer have their own radio programs. It will stop when Blacks are no longer in movies with the exception of being servants. It will stop when Blacks are no longer nominated and/or awarded Oscars.

          It will stop when Blacks leave the suburbs. It will stop when Blacks are limited to employment in minimum wage positions, or being paid under the table where they no longer pay into social security.

          In other words, it will stop when we roll back the calendar to the year 1865.

        • blushedbrown says:



      • Rachael says:

        Oh wait Xena, yes, I do!!! I do remember that.

      • Xena says:

        Oops. “did try” should be “didn’t try.”

      • Rachael says:

        No Xena, there HAS to be another way, there just HAS to.

        • Xena says:


          No Xena, there HAS to be another way, there just HAS to.

          Maybe when all bigoted racists die out? Actually, there numbers are quite small. They have no authority nor riches and that is what makes them mad. If they were large in number and intelligent enough to be successful in their agendas, they would have no need to be opportunists using GZ’s case to promote their racial hatred.

          Think of them like flies who buzz around to annoy.

      • Yes there is more behind this story.

        Something really fishy is going on and I mean 7 day old sitting out in the hot sun fishy fish.

        • Xena says:

          So, she felt it necessary to hold on to her purse?!?! Did anyone hear the shots?

          Why does she have a conspiracy theory involving her other son?

          Lots of questions. Fishy indeed.

      • abbyj says:

        Xena, I am also glad that Rachel posted her encounter with that racist woman. Yes, she should have called her out, and no, Rachel isn’t “irrational” for not wanting any further contact with the woman.

        It’s time to come to terms with the casual, everyday expressions of racism against black males in this country. The “scary black male” has been allowed to become the iconic, stock character that’s trotted out as an easy scapegoat. I see below numerous examples of black males being targeted and framed. Just *being” a black male in this country is a hazard, and supporting a black male, such as President Obama, can become a lightning rod for hatred.

        Here’s one more almost unbelievable story from Nov. 13, when a young white Arizona wife found out that her husband had not voted for Romney. He hadn’t even voted for Obama–or anyone at all–but he hadn’t support the white candidate. In her frustration, she blamed her husband for Obama’s re-election. So she ran him down with her car and left him in critical condition:

      • Strange story. Maybe it’s just me, but when someone says, “Give me your money,” I hand them my purse and say, “Here you go.” Someone mentioned Munchausen, interesting. I don’t know, just don’t know. I only know this: when my sister’s son was murdered, she was not only unable to speak with media that day or the next: she was never able and has never spoken to the media. Ever.

        I hate to think Susan Smith, but it’s just a very strange, lengthy, sort-of too detailed interview. Don’t know.

        No one ever gets over a murder of a child. So the ‘four years’ thing was also a bit strange.

        • Xena says:


          Strange story. Maybe it’s just me, but when someone says, “Give me your money,” I hand them my purse and say, “Here you go.”

          Exactly! Who in their right mind insists on keeping a purse when killing their baby has been threatened as the alternative. On the news this morning, the mom of the oldest kid arrested says that he doesn’t know the younger kid.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Rachael, people like this person to whom you are referring to, only see the crimes committed by people who are not of their own race. they also associate crimes committed by one or two black people to all blacks and, this is very unfair. IMO this is just pure ignorance on their part as well as the parents or who ever, that teaches this BS to them. I would no more look at all white people as being like those who have shot up schools and as you mentioned, movie theaters because, it’s wrong to just lump all whites into the same category as those who have committed these kinds of crimes.

      This is how those who are like this person has always looked at those of the AA race. but, these very same people would raise much hell, if the same was done to them and they know it. they also say that AA commit most of the crimes in this country and, this is very untrue. but it doesn’t stop them from coming out with their crime stat numbers. there is good and bad in every race know to man and, just because there may be a few bad apples in any basket, that does not mean that all of the apples in one particular basket is also bad.

      Those in this country who have the same opinion of AA will never change and that’s a sad thing. take for instance, and AA male or female can walk down any street in this country and, if they encounter a white woman in passing, that woman is going to hold on to her purse for dear life. it’s things such as this that can be and is hurtful because, not all AA snatch purses from white women. no, this kind of stuff has been ingrained into these people from generation to generation.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Rachael — Besides racism, it’s pure stupidity that can’t be fixed. You made the right move — defend and defriend. (Plus have empathy for your friend, who is stuck with this fool as a sister-in-law.)

      After Sandy Hook, one of my recently connected with high school acquaintances from long ago (she’d sent me a FB friend request) posted a gun-nut rant.

      I was willing to overlook that, knowing where I’m originally from — men go squirrel hunting for fun not sustenance and women still brag about how many quarts of pickles they’re putting up when they aren’t homeschooling offspring.

      But then one of her friends got going on a related diatribe about how Obama was a muslin intent on taking our guns away, going on about muslin this and muslin that.

      When I pointed out the muslin was more commonly associated with cheap sheets than any sort of religion, much less one our president was associated with, my high school acquaintance lambasted me for making fun of her repeated spelling of muslim by saying she’d had a stroke and these were typos. No concern whatsoever about the racist mindset, The defriend button exists for a reason. No need to jack up blood pressure with people like this, no matter how many decades you’ve known them, their brothers, sisters, and parents.

      • Rachael says:

        Oh I know. Its that it doesn’t seem so “real” when I see it at the outhouse. Sometimes I feel like that is like watching a bad movie. I mean I know they exist and might be my neighbor, but the internet is big and impersonal. This just made it feel too real. But you are right.

      • abbyj says:

        I don’t mean to laugh out loud, TO, but that is one of the dumbest statements I’ve ever heard of in my life. She called the president a “muslin”?? Takes the damned cake. It’s a special kind of ignorance [true lack of knowledge] taken almost to a comedic level. She didn’t have the intelligence God gave a bag of rocks. If there was ever a wonderful reason to defriend someone, this was it. What a great attitude you have: keep the blood pressure down. Just hit the button. Nice.

    • Jun says:

      Its all good. The comparison was started by a right wing wacko. I saw the original picture and I would say 80% of the posts called him out and said it was bullshit

    • KA says:

      It was a tie that Robert Z Jr put in a tweet today.

      I wonder sometimes who these people sold their souls to…

      It seems a common theme to compare them…because they were both black males?

      Do I (as a white person) get accused of being like a serial killer or government bomber? No. No one points a finger at me and accuses me of being like the Aurora killer, the woman who drove into a lake with her boys or the man who blew up his kids in his house or any other white criminal.

      Being a black young male is compared to every other black male. It is nothing less than absolute biased, racist, discriminatory thought.

      It is detestable.

    • Simply amazing how hateful people can be. What in the world could be this person’s motivation? I am glad you spoke about this. I hardly ever visit my Facebook page and only have it because I can use the icon to sign on to other sites. There are people on my Facebook that I have no idea who they are or where they came from. I hate to be rude and say, “I have no idea who the fuck you are or why you are on my page,” but it is annoying, so I am glad to know there is a way to delete people.

      You are not being irrational at all. I have one family member in particular who has polar opposite views from me, and she doesn’t understand that I don’t worship the likes of Glenn Beck and such, but that’s okay. Hateful comments like the one you describe are not okay and there is no reason to accept the unacceptable.

    • Malisha says:

      You can add: “Do all white men kill African American teens on the way to the grocery store just because one did?”

  29. You all have thoughtful comments says:


    I have inserted the words of the NEN call that Serino plays back to gz in the transcript of the audio 3 interview of February 29, 2012.

    I only used the part of that interview Part 3 (from 0 to 7:99) because that is what corresponds to Part 1 of the reenactment on February 27, 2012. [I might do the rest of the interview at another time.]

    I thought you might wish to store all of this on your site. If so, you can find it at


    • Rachael says:

      Love this part:

      Serino: That statement. These @!$%#s…what’s behind that?
      Zimmerman: People that victimize the neighborhood.
      Singleton: Didn’t you just tell us in there that a week earlier they made an arrest?
      Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
      Singleton: So they don’t always get away.
      Zimmerman: No.
      Serino: Good point.

    • leander22 says:

      yahtc, good work, I have to save the link, or alternatively Lonnie should post the link on his site. I wasn’t aware Randy Smith was present when Serino played the 911 call.

      Concerning the reenactment. It’s a pity you didn’t start slightly earlier, but strictly that’s one of my favorite passages. I am very, very skeptic GZ first saw Trayvon at Taaffe’s house, admittedly. … Shortly before GZ interrupts himself and motions to move on, at that point Randy Smith, not Serino, lures him into elaborate. The “inspector” is Randy Smith, Serino’s boss at the time. I don’t think Serino asks the question you attribute to him-

      • leander22 says:

        “into” that was lures him into a little elaboration, maybe lures him to elaborate, would be better now, if it works at all that is. 😉

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Leander, the reenactment transcription is just one I had saved from somewhere.
        The one I referenced here (audio part 3 with excerpts of NEN) required me to worked on it before posting it…….it is word for word. I first had to work on the whole NEN call with someone’s transcript I had found that needed correction, then work on Audio Part 3 which was also someone else’s transcript that needed correction , and then combine the two with the proper excerpts from the NEN call.

        So basically, I was just an editor.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Wouldn’t it be great to have a spreadsheet with columns to show all the different versions of each of gz’s lies?

        Each column could represent a different interview.

      • kimmi says:

        Here’s a site that has a lot of info.
        If you scroll down, it has GZ’s multiple statements.
        It also has the witness statements and 911 calls/times.
        Hope this helps!

      • kimmi says:

        Here’s the link… 🙂

      • leander22 says:

        Kimmig, Tchoupi is one of the heroes in case research. The problem with Imgur is that I haven’t figured out how to link to a specific passage yet. All I can figure out is how to link to the maps.

        8) As Serino pointed out, GZ stayed at location F for the last 88sec of his NEN call at 7:13:42pm.

        I don’t remember that. Can anybody help me?

      • leander22 says:

        Now, I did it. Sorry, the name of my favorite class mate in high school was Charly Kimmig. I can’t help that association. Will you forgive me? 😉

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        Now, if you


        You can find the complete transcript of Part 3 Audio of Serino/Singleton interview with gz on February 29, 2012 WITH the excerpts from both gz’s NEN call and W11’s 911 call that Serino played back to gz.

  30. onlyiamunitron says:



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