Why are so many people irrational

Saturday, March 23, 2013

At one time or another, I believe everyone who seeks Justice for Trayvon has been frustrated by the absence of intelligent thought and discourse displayed by defendant’s supporters.

Now we are seeing the media support some elements of the defendant’s irrational claims. For example, they report that the prosecution’s case is “crumbling” because Dee Dee “lied” about going to a hospital instead of attending Trayvon’s funeral.

I find it difficult to believe that any intelligent person would say such a stupid thing.

In fact, I have the same reaction to the right wing in this country.

Here’s an article by Paul Roseberg that sheds some light on the subject.

The title of the article is:

Does Irrationality Doom America?
How rational problem-solving has ceased to be “serious” among US elites.

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373 Responses to Why are so many people irrational

  1. LLMPapa says:

    LOL….nope…nosiree…you’re not gonna get me to talk about MY political views. Been there, dun that.

    If I tried it here, Xena’d probably get astraddle of me tryin to bash MY head, Tzar’d probably be eggin her on, and Jun’d be doin another great hip hop song bout my azzwhoopin.

    • Xena says:


      If I tried it here, Xena’d probably get astraddle of me tryin to bash MY head, …

      HA!! Notice that I have not made any comments about politics. So, there will be no straddling and head bashing. 🙂

  2. Here’s a potentially incendiary interview of Pope Francis before he was elected pope. At least, that is what it purports to be. It may be fake.

    It was published by the Diocese of Sailford in the UK and subsequently taken down when they announced that it could not be verified.

    Why is it potentially incendiary?

    Because if he said it, he said that socialism causes misery, and that America is heading towards a form of communism.

    Damian Thompson of The Telegraph reports the story.

  3. colin black says:

    Bill Taylor says:

    March 24, 2013 at 12:11 pm

    since it is obvious my opinions are not welcome here, i thank those that have been civil in the discussion.

    I hope the Martin family gets justice.

    Dont take umbrage though opinions are like ,,, ….. every body has one.
    An if you feel people are being a tad to combative perhaps like you they have opinions.
    And are passionate about them so by takeing up an stommpin off because people dont apeaciate or you feel agree with your thoughts.

    Is not self serveing you do your self an injustice Bill an should stay an try to validate your opinions .
    Or perhaps just perhaps learn something that causes you to change your point of veiw.

    Personaly I would miss you.

    • boyd says:

      I got the fox news vibe from one of his comments.. I can get that fox news diatribe anywhere. And I hate labels. I read that the British considered our founding fathers ‘terrorists’. And so were Zionists so the “terrorist’ labels nt such a bad thing.

      How can someone be 100% liberal, cnservative all the time.

  4. Bill Taylor says:

    since it is obvious my opinions are not welcome here, i thank those that have been civil in the discussion.

    I hope the Martin family gets justice.

    • boyd says:

      MANY of the tenets of liberalism are 100% irrational. MANY? See ya..

    • I do not agree with your political opinions, but that does not mean you are not welcome here.

      Come on, son!

      Don’t be a prima donna.

      There’s lots of room in the Justice for Trayvon tent, even for conservatives like you.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        LOL…..i read my post and it reads to me that “my opinions” are not welcome here, i NEVER claimed me as a person isnt welcome after all i have been posting for months….i never said good bye or anything like that, i did pause before responding and still dont understand the anger a few have expressed?

        example i posted that climate change is the natural state of our climate a scientific statement and was called a “climate change denier”

        i was told that the climate controls the weather which is an incredibly WRONG claim……the climate is simply the average weather over the previous 30 years, it is what you expect to get, the weather is what you actually get, this weekend is a good example, the storm that is happening NOW could NOT happen IF the climate controls the weather.

        you dont even have climate numbers UNTIL you have observed 30 years of weather and averaged them….and the climate does NOT change until after the weather had changed.

        in summary i will continue as i always have posting when and what i desire, but with the full knowledge, that i am now deemed the “enemy” by some for daring to express my INDIVIDUAL beliefs on the concept of socialism/communism and conservatism……BTW i have NEVER been a registered republican in my life.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Bill Taylor –

          You refer to “socialism/communism.” What concerns me is that you do not seem to understand there is a huge difference between the two and that these are two different kinds of governmental processes. You are lumping both together.

          FYI I am a Libertarian but registered Republican who supported Obama, twice – for many reasons (terrible Republican candidates) but with great admiration for bringing national health care forward for all. This can only result in better health for Americans – and healthier candidates for military service.

          As a conservative I assume you are interested in free enterprise and business success – the stock market has DOUBLED in the past 4.2 years since Obama was elected. Bush had driven it into the ground. Now, woldn’t a conservative like those figures?

          Glad you’re sticking around! Now you know why the Canucks blogging with us are not serving their maple syrup over sauerkraut.

        • manberk says:

          . @Bill “socialism/communism and conservatism…”

          You forgot liberalism.

          Or is is interchangeable with communism?


          Seemed like from a far that your initial comment was confrontational. No offense. JMO but Im sure the results would have been different with a different approach.

          You can be a capitalist and a liberal my man

      • Bill Taylor says:

        i am aware of the differences in the details but the basic concepts are very similar that society owns everything and the individual owns nothing….again fully aware the implementation of either has never happened yet and also aware that the attempts so far have failed, as a teen in the 60’s i know there were thousands of “communes” started all around the country and they all FAILED.

        i also understand that capitalism MUST have restraints, as in no monopolies, no poisoning the planet, no harming people, and many other proper restraints on the business practices.

        but i still reject the concept that i “owe” society something simply because i exist….i reject that society owns me and my work efforts….the idea of from each by their ability and to each by their needs is utter LUNACY among actual human beings.

        and NOBODY has addressed the very real points i made about the “socialist” type countries where people and the earth are being abused on a huge scale.

        and it wasnt you that said something about me wanting the rules reset to 1776, i in no way want that, i simply want legal government under our constitution, and the huge changes away from it that some people desire should be done via amending the document.

        • cielo62 says:

          Bill- sovereign citizen much? What a bunch of selfish hooey! People with your mindset stash money in overseas accounts to avoid paying taxes. Bill- the poster boy for the ME generation.

          Sent from my iPod

      • Bill Taylor says:

        i need to modify one statement i do “owe” society something that is to NOT harm others or their property and to not put either at direct risk of harm as i exercise my liberty.

    • onlyiamunitron says:

      I was thinking open thread, more along the lines of no specific topic, as long as it’s something other than anything about the case.


      • Xena says:

        @Unitron. Of course, this is not my blog, but I think it’s disrespectful for you to attempt to change its course. It is beyond reasonable expectations to think that one blog can be all things to you. If you have interest in another subject matter, there may be other blogs that discuss it.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “Of course, this is not my blog, but I think it’s disrespectful for you to attempt to change its course.”

          diaryofasuccessfulloser asked for an open thread on Trayvon and the GZ case despite the fact that the professor covers other topics as well.

          Were they being disrespectful?

          Is the professor disrespectful to himself when he covers other topics?

          I just suggested an experiment, a thought I’d been toying with for a day or three now.

          The professor is free to deal with that suggestion as he chooses.

          I think it would be an interesting one.

          When diaryofasuccessfulloser made their request, it seemed as good a place as any to insert mine.

          It’s not like the one precludes the other.

          The internet’s not going to run out of electrons if he does both.


          • Xena says:

            @Unitron, diary asked for an open thread to discuss GZ’s case. That is why the majority of us are here. The Professor has presented another post about defense attorneys. That ties into what we discuss concerning legal proceedings in GZ’s case. It helps our understanding.

            Your request can be construed that you do not like the issues and subjects posted here, so in addition to a post about defense lawyers, and an open thread, you also want something else.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            If it distresses you that much, then, should my suggestion be accepted, you could just not bother to read that particular thread.


          • Xena says:


            If it distresses you that much, then, should my suggestion be accepted, you could just not bother to read that particular thread.

            I would appreciate if you not assume my emotions or in the alternative, not transfer your emotions onto me.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Well then if it doesn’t distress you, there’s no problem.


          • Xena says:

            @Unitron. Why do you continue to impress onto me, your assumptions of my emotions?

  5. colin black says:

    onlyiamunitron says:

    March 24, 2013 at 11:57 am

    And just for experiment’s sake, another thread where the case and everything about it are off-limits.

    What like this one forinstance.

    onlyiamunitron says:

    March 24, 2013 at 11:57 am

    And just for experiment’s sake, another thread where the case and everything about it are off-limits.

    onlyiamunitron says:

    March 24, 2013 at 11:57 am

    And just for experiment’s sake, another thread where the case and everything about it are off-limits.


  6. Dear Professor. May we have an open thread on Trayvon and the GZ case? Please? Political convo makes many of us very uncomfortable, especially when it might divide solidarity toward justice for Trayvon.

  7. Trained Observer says:

    Note: It’s not just balack pedestrians who get targeted.

    South Florida Sunday talk show this morning ran a segment on a white guy who got arrested on a Miami Beach street as he walked to his ex-wife’s house to do some window repair at her request.

    He had taken a bus to within a few blocks of her house (where he previously had lived for 15 years) and wore a tee, jeans, and carried a bag with a couple of books and a camera. Cop didn’t think he belonged in such a ritzy neighborhoodl. He was charged with loitering, resisting, etc., and got jailed overnight — where he got roughed up by a corrections offider.

    He has since sued and won $100,000 jury verdict. Miami Beach is appealing, saying jury didn’t follow instructions from the court.

  8. colin black says:

    onlyiamunitron says:

    March 24, 2013 at 3:26 am

    “Yes but Florida is a big state

    Do they not have other news, more important news?”

    Well, the earth opened up and swallowed someone there the other day.

    In any of the other 49 states, that would be considered unusual.

    This is not a uncommon event in Florida due to its geological conditions.
    Many people know there a lot of swamps an water throughout Florida.
    Its also geoligicaly unstable not due to earthquakes or tremmors .

    No Florida sits atop a cavernous aqaferne system basicly huge undergound caverns filled with water.
    The entire state is being erodded from below by the water an one day will collapse en masse an sink into the earths bowells.

    • Did you read about the golfer in Illinois that fell into a sinkhole……..on the 14th hole?

    • towerflower says:

      Please don’t wish me harm, Colin, lol. I have lived here all my life. Sinkholes can be a way of life around Central Florida. Most are formed like you said, water eroding the limestone. Too much rain and we get sinkholes, too little rain and we get them. Most of the lakes are from sinkholes and most are centered around the Central Florida area.

      What happened a few weeks ago was unusual. Most of the time a homeowner will get a little bit of a warning, cracks forming, depression in the yard, etc. The floor disappearing and swallowing a man in bed was unusual……never heard of something like that before. Even photos of the outside of the house didn’t show any telltale cracking in the concrete blocks. Insurance companies cover sinkholes here, they only hate hurricanes and it doesn’t take much to give a company an excuse to drop you. Have land around here and want to build then it’s best to hire an engineering team to do soil samples to determine your risk. Most are somewhat small and they will normally fill them but once in awhile a big one will form and we’ll get a new lake.

      The largest is almost a perfect circle that covers almost 2,000 acres, it’s called Kingsley Lake. One of the most famous formed in 1981, now called Lake Rose (after the woman who discovered it forming) and it formed just outside of Orlando in Winter Park and it took a home, 5 :Porsches at a dealership, 1 camper, part of a road, a community swimming pool and bath house. That was the largest one to be witnessed forming. But they are a way of life, just like earthquakes are to some and tornados to others. I don’t think there is a truly safe place on this earth.

  9. Puck says:

    Nah, I just think he’s a glutton.

    • boyd says:

      The side effects of Fogen’s prescription drugs at the time of the killling is huge(IMHO) and if there have been any changes to his medication or doctors since that time it must be investigated. I would go after this guy for everything leave no stone unturned.

      • Puck says:

        Oh, I was just kidding. I know that meds can dramatically increase appetite. From what I recall, though, at the time he was on Adderall, Restoril (temazepam), and Zoloft (I think this is what he asked Shellie to pick up for him while he was first in jail). If anything, the temazepam would have affected his judgment and behavior. I keep pointing out (with no replies) that I know from vast experience that temazepam, when taken recreationally and not at bedtime as directed, causes a certain feeling of drunkenness, euphoria, disinhibition, and these can lead to aggression. So if he’d take a few of those, or taken just one and mixed it with booze, then that might explain his bravado, not to mention his sort of slurred speech.

        • I agree Puck……Also the interaction of different drugs in combination can result in differing side effects. Add in alcohol and it can lead to many other side effects.

          Last year I tried Chantix to stop smoking…….one of the listed side effects? “increased aggression”……..I found this to be true for myself while taking it…..and stopped.

          Still smoke…..now a combination of electronic cigs and the real deal.

          One day I’ll manage to quit……..

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Of course increased aggression (due to just being in a plain ol’ foul mood) is a side effect of discontinuing smoking when you aren’t taking any prescription stuff as well.

            : – (

      • Trained Observer says:

        Add to all that (bad mood, misuse of prescription meds, gluttony, etc. ), Fogen had ambitions to become kingpin of a hotshot security operation, one that would become a moneymaker.

  10. Tzar says:

    I am not so sure the media is without a rationale for their actions, you may even call it a motive
    a good fight gets ratings
    a knockout in the first round not so much

    • Jun says:

      Yes but Florida is a big state

      Do they not have other news, more important news?

      I do not see how, Fogen getting really fat, is supposed to be headline news

      Or Junior telling his bullshit lies on TV is supposed to be off the hot desk

      Or DD allegedly not going to the hospital or somewhere

      Anyways, I wonder why Omara felt the need to twist and misrepresent the conversation of Bernie and DD and take out the “or somewhere”

      I wonder what else he redacted from the Guy conversation when he called them

      I hope Guy recorded the phone call so then he can throw egg on Omara’s face LOL

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “Yes but Florida is a big state

        Do they not have other news, more important news?”

        Well, the earth opened up and swallowed someone there the other day.

        In any of the other 49 states, that would be considered unusual.


      • Xena says:


        I hope Guy recorded the phone call so then he can throw egg on Omara’s face LOL

        Two or three times now, when the defense questions what prosecutors and attorney Crump have said, Judge Nelson reminded the defense that they are talking about “officers of the court.” It’s my impression that she really doesn’t like the defense calling other attorneys liars. Those are personal attacks before the court.

      • Jun says:

        Yes, his motion to depose Crump, is just an attack on Crump to be honest

        Crump is not a recording expert with his device, and he admits that, and he states in his affidavit, he tried his best to get the best recording possible

        If he is unhappy with the recording, there’s still Bernie’s recording, or he can depose witness 8, but he’s already done that twice, so I do not know if it will be granted for a 3rd go

        I think Blackwell is going to thrash Omara, using words LOL

        I think Omara and West better watch it because what goes around, comes around

      • Jun says:


        U mean, how Florida reports Fogen becoming fat is unusual?


      • Tzar says:

        24hr news cycle+let’s not actually report real news since people might wake up

      • Trained Observer says:

        Jun — Laws pertaining to telephone recording vary from state to state. Historically in Florida, it’s been illegal to record a phone conversation unless the other party (or all parties on the line) are so advised. Am not up on recent legislative changes, but think that status is still in play.

        So if, for example, Guy spoke with MOM on phone and is recording the convo, he’s obligated to tell MOM … it can’t be done on the sneak with intent to later entrap, … or for any intent.

      • Jun says:

        I beg to differ because the cops plant bugs on people’s phones and I have never heard them get in trouble for that

        And besides, Guy could have very well told Omara it was being recorded…. at this point it is hearsay what Omara says happened during the conversation

    • Jun says:

      Here’s the Orlando Sentinel headline for tomorrow

      “Fogen eats $200 worth of Pizza Hut” by Rene Stutzman

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Jun –

        That’s the diet!

      • Puck says:

        She’ll claim Fogen said the the pizza looked suspicious, like something was wrong with it. The first piece burnt the top of his mouth, and he was this close from his literally flaming palate burning through to his nasal cavity — so he had no choice but to devour it in one sitting in self-defense. He also noted the suspicious delivery guy was bpa-lack and looked like he was on drugs or sumpin’. O’Mara is investigating whether the delivery guy might have known Trayvon (perhaps one of the guys at the 7-11?) and/or Dee Dee; he’s already subpoenaed the guy’s school records, social media accounts, phone records, and the GPS on the delivery car. Fogen has asked for extra security and a food taster, and plans on suing Papa John’s for the cost.

        Oh, and these are irrefutable facts, because Rene Stutzman said so, so nyah nyah!

      • boyd says:

        Maybe Fogen is taking new drugs, side effects you eat a lot.
        BDLR I hope is on it,

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Jun, Indeed it does, what goes around comes around and often more times than once or twice. as a matter of fact, what ever ills befall these two low life’s, THEY WILL BE DESERVING OF IT because, they’ve EARNED it by the way they have lied as well as helped to smear and slander an innocent deceased kid.

      Oh yea, they’ve both got it coming alright!

  11. elcymoo says:

    Bill Taylor says:
    March 23, 2013 at 1:14 pm
    please point out the exact redistribution of wealth you seem to have found at this nations beginning?

    where individuals taxed on their income?

    didnt many of the founders point out they could NOT find any words in the constitution allowing the government to take from one citizen and give to another?

    as to the “general welfare” being somehow a socialist concept, and the common defense again being socialist?

    the people decided as a group that we need the LIMITED government to do some things we cant do by ourselves, that in no way is socialism.



    Main article: Taxation history of the United States

    Before 1776, the American Colonies were subject to taxation by the United Kingdom, and also imposed local taxes. Property taxes were imposed in the Colonies as early as 1634.[99] In 1673, the UK Parliament imposed a tax on exports from the American Colonies, and with it created the first tax administration in what would become the United States.[100] Other tariffs and taxes were imposed by Parliament. Most of the colonies and many localities adopted property taxes.

    Under Article VIII of the Articles of Confederation, the United States federal government did not have the power to tax. All such power lay with the states. The United States Constitution, adopted in 1787, authorized the federal government to lay and collect taxes, but required that some types of tax revenues be given to the states in proportion to population. Tariffs were the principal federal tax through the 1800s.

    By 1796, state and local governments in fourteen of the 15 states taxed land. Delaware taxed the income from property. By the American Civil War, the principle of taxation of property at a uniform rate had developed, and many of the states relied on property taxes as a major source of revenue. However, the increasing importance of intangible property, such as corporate stock, caused the states to shift to other forms of taxation in the 1900s.

    Income taxes in the form of “faculty” taxes were imposed by the colonies. These combined income and property tax characteristics, and the income element persisted after 1776 in a few states. Several states adopted income taxes in 1837.[101] Wisconsin adopted a corporate and individual income tax in 1911,[102] and was the first to administer the tax with a state tax administration.

    The first federal income tax was adopted as part of the Revenue Act of 1861.[103] The tax lapsed after the American Civil War. Subsequently enacted income taxes were held to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court because they were not given to the states. In 1913, the Sixteenth Amendment was ratified, permitting the federal government to levy an income tax without giving all of it to the states.


  12. colin black says:

    Baiting an swithing makes sense in a fishing tax.
    Many historical buildinngs from late 15 hundreds early 16 hundreds have half or more of there windows bricked up.

    Because back in the day a tax was levied against windows.
    Even the air we breathe was attempted an taxed for buck in the middle ages .
    A King decreed that air was now taxable.
    With the elderly paying least as they would die an soon use no more air.
    Baby were the highest tax rate as if they survived into adult hood would consume the maximum amoun of air.

    We got screwed over here in 69 when they decimiised our currency.
    Over night they devalued the pound by fifty percent with out informing the populace.
    Some of them still havent realised it happened.

    The biggest robbery in british history carrried out by fracking poititians.
    I was only nine years old an I got it.

    I had 6 pounds in saveings an for years Id been getting drummed into my head in the new money a hundred pennys will be a pound.

    As my pounds consisted of 240 pennys I liked the sound of that.
    Remember as a child my shopping habits were small an simple.
    At the local sweet shop you could go in an bye a penny mix of sweetes.
    You would get a couple of chews a gob stopper a bag of sherbit an liquirice.

    So when the day came to make my bank book over an enter an have it coverted to decimal money.
    As the cashier gave me my book back it said the same six pounds.

    I said to him you have forgot to convert it to decimal money.I should be getting two pounds an forty pennys for each one of my pounds.
    He thought this was hilarious I didnt.an later when I went to the sweet shop with one of thease tiny knew pennys an asked for a penny mix I got exactly the same amount os sweeties.

    Even although I was paying over twice as much in actual monetery value.
    An this happened throught the econamy not just for sweets.
    But over night our money had beeen stolen an no one seemed to care.

    Years later I found out this indeed was what had happened.
    In fact Harlod Wilson begged America to susprnd payments for billions we were in debt for arms an food supplied dureing ww2 vast loans from America.

    We couldnt afford to pay back with out haveing to de value the pound.
    Wich would enrage the public if he admitted to this.His adviserors told him not to worry but sneakly devalue the pound dureing the conversion to the decimel system.

    An although labour lost the election an Edwad Heath took office he like all the polititians were aware of the up comeing scam.

    Those in the know had already got rid of any saveings in sterling by transferring to dollars or any stable currency

    Look what the politians in Cypris attempted last week .
    Said it had to pillage everyones bank acounts wth imeadite effect of a ten percent share of what ever saveings they have.
    An its ok because its nessesery to ensure we receive a multi billion bail out from the bail out fund.
    Also known as never never money because we will never ever have to pay it back.

    Because you wont receive a dime of it an we are putting thease loans of for future generations to deal with.

    Got to love thease banker / goverment /despot types they sure know how to rake in the dough

    If a private citizen attempts this its called bank robbery or extortion
    A goverment calls it tax.

  13. pat deadder says:

    You are the funniest people ever.I so love your sense of humors.Can I ask a question If the prosecution has GPS info do they have to turn it over to the defense oops can’t find question mark.I don’t understand Brady,exculptory P.S It was Kiefer Sutherland’s Grandfather who helped bring us our healthcare system.Tommy Douglas was his name..No one in Canada could ever die or lose a home because of no insurance. Our taxes pay for this..Our hospitals are not privately owned.We are so lucky.Hope you all can get universal healthcare someday.I think having to worry about getting sick and having no means to pay for it would somehow affect a nations mental well being.

    • kimmi says:

      I agree there needs to be something done for the millions of uninsured in this country. Although, for a nation already trillions in debt, I wonder if this won’t be the straw that breaks the camels back. I would feel a little better if congress would trade their health plans for what they intend to force on everyone else in America.

      Also concerning, why is the DHS stocking up on BILLIONS of rounds of am munition? Apparently they are planning to be ‘ready’ for something. Is it because we are on the verge of economic collapse? Are they planning to implement martial law?

      See following link, which may be somewhat ‘extreme’ and call me ‘irrational’ if you want, but but imo, our ‘freedom’ in this great nation is at stake, and many of the sheeple in this country are either too busy or too blind to see it happening.


      • kimmi says:

        Now if you ‘unlock’ or ‘jailbreak’ your smartphone, you can go to jail! I bought and paid for the darn thing, I can’t unlock it and take it to another carrier? Really? Why??

        This is now the law of the land:




        PENALTY: In some situations, first time offenders may be fined up to $500,000, imprisoned for five years, or both. For repeat offenders, the maximum penalty increases to a fine of $1,000,000, imprisonment for up to ten years, or both.*


        Ok, imo, things are getting beyond ridiculous!

      • Jun says:

        Not in Canada

        Just watch some Canadian trials of phone companies trying to go after civilians for jailbreaking their phones and watch how the corporations fail

        Just jailbreak the phone if you want to

        No one cares

        And if they want to take you to court, there are many strong and good arguments why it is not illegal and the law is unconstitutional

        Use a constitutional challenge… in Canada we can challenge laws, based on the charter, and I feel in the US, you could very well do the same

        Look at it this way

        If you buy a car, and you decide to take it apart and add gizmos to it, is it against the law?

        You can buy rims, upgrade the motor, anything

        No it is not

        So why would buying a phone and enhancing it with your own know-how, be against the law?

        It is not

        Why should it be different than any other product? Cars can add and change things, why not phones?

        I think you would have a strong petition for that law to be changed and the corporation would be forced to leave you alone

        Even I was in America, I would fight it, if they tried to charge me for jailbreaking a phone, and likely, they would not find out anyways

    • pat deadder said,

      If the prosecution has GPS info do they have to turn it over to the defense oops can’t find question mark.I don’t understand Brady,exculptory.

      Yes, the prosecution has to turn over all of the evidence that it intends to introduce at the trial and I believe they already have turned over the GPS evidence. There may have been a problem regarding its interpretability, given the form that it may have been in. I think the prosecution solved that problem for the defense and I suspect that is why we have not heard the defense complaining any more about missing data for 2/26.

      The prosecution also is obligated to turn over all exculpatory evidence in its possession, custody or control. This obligation is what we call the Brady rule and it is based on the practical principle that the prosecution is more likely than the defense to discover exculpatory evidence that is unknown to a defendant. Therefore, despite our adversarial system, the SCOTUS created the Brady rule in Brady v. Maryland to promote justice and due process of law.

  14. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< my cats are better problem solvers than many stupid folks today.

  15. Not Angela Lansbury says:

    I don’t think we can point to the media’s current treatment of the case as an example of irrationality. What they’re doing is quite rational when you consider their primary interest is ratings, not truth. They must retain balance in the story, or else people will stop paying attention to it, and they’ll lose the gold mine it’s been for them so far.

    For a lot of people, O’Mara’s decision to skip the SYG hearing foreshadowed Fogen’s eventual defeat. So the media is blowing air into anything that might remotely feel like good news for the defense. But anyone with a firing synapse sees how lopsided is the evidence in this case.

    • Xena says:

      Regarding the media, the truth is that unless people are following the case via the internet, they have no idea what Florida media is saying about the case. The same is true for those who do not sit in front of news television such as CNN and Fox.

    • Jun says:

      Maybe Fogen got confused and thought the immunity was for “Standing On Ground” because was standing on a ground when he shot Trayvon in the chest

  16. colin black says:

    Puck says:

    March 23, 2013 at 7:51 pm

    @Leroy Eugene Hudson

    I’ve actually developed a new theoretical model that we can use to understand how the Right has gone nutters in the past four years since the election of a black president, and the role of the conservative media entertainment complex (and its figureheads) in this. I posit that this is an actual psychosocial pathology among the Right with significant similarities to the etiologies of mass psychogenic illness (mass hysteria). Just waiting for it to pass peer review next month, which is virtually guaranteed (knock wood).
    Puck @
    Its like an even bigger version of hysteria than the town in America that caught tourretes.
    Its the political ulta conservite type mentality thats caught mass hyster a touretes.
    As if there very sky is falling in above there heads an the ground dissolving beneath there feet .

  17. colin black says:

    Ok how is this for irratinal behaviour the British public have been charged a payment tax to listen to BBC before tv when it was a radio broadcaster.
    Then later the yearly licance to include tv an radio we have had no say on this licance if you owned a radio or tv receiver.

    Even if you never watch bbc programes you are not excempt an must pay at the momment its 165 pounds anually .
    An yet over the las t couple of years slowly at first drip drip drip insinuations an allegations about cetain insiders an personalitys with in the bbc.

    Then the damm breaks over the Jimmy Savile scandal an has never stopped since.
    An yet this peodaphile ridden coperation has the cheek to run an yearly red nose day charity to help the children…….

    Red nose? more truthfull would be purple knob end regards this den of child molesters an it seems to have been institusiniled almost since its Inception.
    I used to think years ago before any of thease allegations broke.

    Why would a male dominated institution like the bbc decide to promote its self in a female gender as Auntie beeb.
    Why not Uncle beeb.
    Its almost as even back then they knew what there private agenda was going to be.

    An we the public are being ordered to pay this money tax yearly or face crimal charges.
    You get taken to crimnal court an can be fined and or imprisonedd for refuseal to pay.

    Its as if Penn State had been demanding a set amout of money from all its football teams support an yet even when the sex scandals became public knowlage.

    They still acted as nothing had happened busness as useall an nothing to see here.
    Now yet another sex peadophile ring is uncovered at what station yup the bbc

    I Know know what bbc realy stands for.

    Boldly Buggering Children.

    Here is the latest scandal in the non stop barrage of unravelling den of insiduaus child abusers funded by force of imprisonment by the British Public.

    Can someone please explain the ratinall in any of thease circumstances or events.

    • Colin…..We have so many hidden taxes…..one being the

      Dingell Johnson Act…..No shit that’s the name of it…..It’s a tax on any and all sport fishing tackle….taxed at the manufacture. It’s intended purpose is to improve sport fishing in America….and as with many has been corrupted to support other things.

      So when you’re fishing….Just remember Dingell Johnson


      When California voted in state sanctioned gambling, half the proceeds were to go to education……..Yet today Califs education system is worse than it was before gambling.

      Really just a bait & switch

      • Bill Taylor says:

        the good old days when the dingel/berry amendment could fight it out on the floor with the byrd/akaka proposal!

        • So now you want to be a smartass with your dingle/berry comment?

          I posted a link to it…..did you read it?

          I would like to see a link to your byrd/akaka proposal…..


          Nuff said

      • Bill Taylor says:

        clue = i was JOKING, trying to add a bit of humor and lighten the mood.

      • Dave says:

        I read the linked article and the law seems reasonable enough to me. It levies a tax on boating and fishing equipment and mandates that the money be used for programs that specifically benefit boaters and fishermen. Did I miss something? I believe that most sportsmen’s organisations support this and similar excise taxes on hunting eqipment (including all guns and ammo). BTW Congressman-for-Life John Dingell represents a district in Michigan, a state where fishing, boating and hunting are a HUGE part of the economy.

        • @Dave…..

          What I was trying to point out were the hidden taxes we all pay.

          I myself am an outdoorsman. In regards to Dingell / Johnson?……

          I pay for fishing & hunting licenses….For big game hunting there are additional fees for the type of animal you intend to hunt by way of paying for a permit or tag to hunt the animal.

          Fishing? Aren’t boats subject to registration and licensing fees annually…..Some states you have to purchase additional stickers “tags” for other types of fish, Salmon, Trout etc. You pay a fee many places just to launch your boat, or even to fish a lake.

          Then we have sportsmans organizations that help support sustaining wildlife, the NRA, BASS & Ducks unlimited to name a few.

          THAT is my argument…….why have hidden fees such as dingell / johnson? Why not just increase the taxes and fees that are out front and known.

          Hell California has a outdoor permit system, the state divided into sections, a permit needed for each section which includes national forests….Last I checked it was $5.00 a day or $20.00 for the year.
          So if I just want to go for a hike or picnic in a national forest (PUBLIC LAND) I have to pay 5 bucks to take that hike?

          The national forests where the BLM charges ranchers to free range cattle, animals which are competing with the natural wildlife for resources. Does that money go to improving wildlife habitat?

  18. Operacarla says:

    This is very sad and disturbing. This is why I also have issues with the right-wing of our nation. Richard Nixon derailed peace talks planned by President Johnson in 1968 to end the Vietnam War. Nixon did this in order to win the presidency. 22000 more young service member’s deaths are on him. Justice for Trayvon!

  19. colin black says:

    Some one some time soon is going to have a talk with the defendant.
    I dont know if he has enough genuine family members and or freinds.
    To stage an inrevention an try to get him to see reality as opposed to the deluded self serveing series of impossable events that will be shot down.
    By reality an common sense other wise they are doing him a diservise unless his intentions are to never face a jury.

    So why worry about court an wether or not his story makes sense
    If he hadnt screwed up an miss judged his attorneys reaction when informing him of his secret cash stash an extra extra currrent passport.
    He would be gone untagged un monitered an with dispossable cash he would have been offski
    Of course he is so incopatent it wouldnt take long to recapture him.
    He aint know run Bambi Run type or a Ronnie Biggs.

    Even now I think he is in a state of denial re the upcomeing trial.
    He will either attempt to flee or fake his own disapearance by mysterious persons unknown.
    Or suiside but he is coward an sick individuall so if he goes a doubt he will go alone.

    • Rachael says:

      It sure as heck won’t be his family. It really should be his attorney, but something’s wrong with him. I don’t know what his deal is.

      • Ignorance is bliss so they say……

        Until those prison bars slam behind him…

        My odds are still on flee or suicide……just sayin’

      • Rachael says:

        Xena, I would not be the least bit surprised. MMP, I don’t think he would commit suicide.

        • Xena says:

          Weapons? Nope. Slashing his wrists? Nope, not unless he can trust ShelLIE to call an ambulance before he bleeds to death. GZ is capable of taking just enough pills to make himself sick without it appearing like attempted suicide. A mental health facility would not provide him with the means to escape. He would want a regular hospital ward.

          • fogen in a psych ward……now there’s a picture 🙂

            “Would you like a drool bucket mr fogen?”

          • Xena says:

            @MMPat. Well, at least he wouldn’t have to pay for security. LOL!! I don’t think that attempted suicide is sufficient to delay trial until the defendant is mentally able to stand trial either, because a decision to harm himself would be creating a condition to serve himself a benefit.

      • Rachael says:

        – “nope, not unless he can trust ShelLIE to call an ambulance before he bleeds to death.” An ambulance? Sheeeyit. She can put knuckle bandages on his wrists!!!

      • Trained Observer says:

        Wouldn’t any confirmed attempt at suicide spur revocation of his million-dollar bail? Even a hint from MOM to the court that Fogen tried to pull an overdose (or something, as BDLR might say) would make me inclined to think Judge Nelson would want to immediately tuck his fat fanny into the safety of a cell at the Seminole clink.

      • ladystclaire says:

        IMO, he is too much of a COWARD to commit suicide. if anything he would more than likely try to make a run for it. the thing with that is, he’s not as smart as Madea to know how to get his bling bling off of his wittle fat ankel and, put it on the paw of the dog that he kicked.

        • cielo62 says:

          Ladystclaire- I agree with you 100%. GZ is too much a coward to try to seriously hurt himself. Fleeing would be great! Then the entire klan can be homeless once the bail bonds company takes the property. GZ will be free all of 2 days. Then he’ll get nabbed at the Publix buying root beer barrels and pop tarts.

          Sent from my iPod

      • Jun says:

        He’s probably gonna make a run for it, and then go around pretending to be Chaz Bono

        • PiranhaMom says:


          Yeah, Jun, and Chaz Bono already heard about that, so he’s frantically losing weight – last report, 37 lbs.

          Doesn’t want to be a victim of mistaken identity and get caught in the crossfire as the cops try to gun down the fleeing bail-jumper.

          Zimmerman’s best hope is to head out to sea as The Mississippi Belle. Stick a couple of ferris wheels on his side, and he can probably pull it off.

    • cielo62 says:

      Oh I’m sure that by now GZ knows he has very little hope of not going to prison for a very long time. That is why he is taking refuge in eating. He’s a big as a small barn because he really knows there’s no escape.

    • Nef05 says:

      I recall reading an article about O’Mara preparing fogen’s family (presumably including fogen) for a loss at trial. It was a while, but not very long ago. Sometime in fall, perhaps. I’ve never seen it since and I only saw it once, so I have no idea how reliable the report may have been.

      OTOH – I only saw and read once that Sybrina Fulton rushed from the room, sobbing, the first time she heard the 911 call, and I don’t doubt that for a second. Also, the report on a 911 call being enhanced by the feds, with fogen’s voice in the background was only reported once, then scrubbed from the network that reported it; and that has also turned out to be accurate.

      So, while I take the report about O’Mara preparing fogen’s family for a trial loss with a large grain of salt, I believe there may also be a grain of truth to it, as well. Of course, that may be a standard discussion that any defense attorney would have with client/family, regarding “no guarantees”, that was given a little extra “oomph” by the media. The professor would know, I’m sure, of any such “standard” type of discussion.

      • Rachael says:

        There was also that report about ABC saying Trayvon had tried to call 911 then that disappeared and it got reported that it was just a mistake, they were talking about GZ’s call or something.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “There was also that report about ABC saying Trayvon had tried to call 911 then that disappeared and it got reported that it was just a mistake, they were talking about GZ’s call or something.”

          Did that report come out after Tracy Martin’s phone bill was made public?

          Because there’s a call from Trayvon’s phone to 911 right about the time of his funeral, which was most likely the police dialing 911 with that phone to capture the number from caller ID, since calling 911 was probably just about the only thing available to them on a locked phone.


        • Xena says:


          There was also that report about ABC saying Trayvon had tried to call 911 then that disappeared and it got reported that it was just a mistake, they were talking about GZ’s call or something.

          It was actually the 911 call that captured the screams where GZ’s voice is also captured talking. The FBI enhanced the tape to determine what GZ was saying. Before the court, BDLR said that two voices are on the tape.

      • Nef05 says:

        @Rachel –
        Yep, that’s the report I was referencing. I believe they scrubbed it, because it erroneously attributed the call to Trayvon. I remember stating at the time that the report had too much detail to be utterly false (feds were enhancing, Zimmerman’s voice in the background, etc) for it to be totally off the wall.

        After Judge Lester indicated at the hearing when fogen’s bond was revoked, that all the 911 calls had been released, we knew it couldn’t have been from Trayvon, for sure. It wasn’t until BDLR referenced it in the Dec. Hearing that I was conclusively sure that the prosecution had something of value on it. Many others believed so far earlier than I did, though.

        I’m curious as to why this *enhanced* version hasn’t been released, per discovery. Also, why O’Mara has not seemed to be too interested in it. I don’t know if there is some “work product” issue with it, the original 911 call being the actual discoverable “evidence” and any “enhanced version” belonging to the prosecution. But, if that’s not the case, it seems like it would have been released by now. Under what rule/procedure/law, could it be held back, and still used at trial?

        • Xena says:


          Under what rule/procedure/law, could it be held back, and still used at trial?

          Prosecutors can introduce the tape via an expert witness. Prosecutors released the 911 calls to the defense. It’s not their responsibility to tell the defense what they hear on those calls neither how they will be used at trial. The defense can hire their own expert witness to enhance the tape.

      • Jun says:

        We have a term in Canada to describe the Fogen family and the nutters

        They are all very salty people and thirsty

      • Most of my clients harbored no illusions about winning and more than a few were surprised when we did. I saved the let’s-get-real speech for the clients who stubbornly clung to their own bullshit when I knew there was a vanishingly small chance that a jury would believe them.

      • Nef05 says:

        @Xena – Thank you.

        @ Prof – That clears it up. Also explains why that report of a (lets-get-real) talk came in the fall of 2012, instead of when O’Mara first took the case, when I would have thought a standard “no guarantee” type of conversation would take place. Thanks.

    • boyd says:

      hey finally someone who spells like me. lol. George is a lunatic. yes, he is in a state of denial. He believed and maybe still does believe he was in the right to profile,stalk and shoot that kid.
      dont forget the side effects of the medications h was on. I’d love to know if he’s still on them. And if not when was he taken off them, probably one week after he shot an 1th grader.

      • Nef05 says:

        Personally, I think he still believes he can talk his way out of it, as well. I think O’Mara is going to have a devil of a time keeping him off the stand. Anyone who thinks calling the special prosecutor is a good idea, without benefit of counsel, is not hitting on all cylinders. I really think once the prosecution goes first, and he sees the case mounting against him, he is going to become more and more agitated believing if only “HE” could talk, he could just straighten this whole mess out.

        I, for one, hope he demands O’Mara puts him on the stand.

  20. I kinduv wish the prosecution could call Usain Bolt as an expert witness to explain how Trayvon could take off running, run back and cirle GZ’s car and then run away again and lose GZ in a matter of a few seconds.

    Cory- “we would like to call Usain Bolt to the stand”

    Cory- “State your name and expertise”

    Bolt- “Usain bolt, da fastest mutterrf–ker on two feet eva”

    Cory- “could TM do what GZ claims”?

    Bolt- “No Mahn”

    Cory- “your witness”

    MOM- “no questions”

    • Malisha says:

      The defense will call the Ghost of the Archangel/Guru who was the original author of the line, “You can do anything you set your mind to” and the questions will go like this:

      State your name and expertise:

      GAG: I am the Ghost of the Archangel/Guru

      Could TM do what GZ claims?

      GAG: Sure, so long as he set his mind to it.

    • Jun says:

      They could also call the person who plays Spock in Star Trek as a witness

      BDLR: Hi Spock. Is teleportation a reality on planet earth?

      Spock: No it is not. The technology is not here yet.

      BDLR: What would you conclude then as to the defendant’s statement that the victim was at the clubhouse and then within a matter of seconds was at a location about 550 feet away, at this T point here?

      Spock: I would say that he is lying about that.

      BDLR: Do you mind giving the defendant the Vulcan death grip?

      Spock: Sure. I hope he does not “stand his ground” with me LOL

    • Two sides to a story says:


    • Jun says:

      The defense calls Sundance Cracker of the conservative Treefoil Hats

      Sundance Cracker: For god’s sake, its conservative treehouse.

      Omara: So you are an expert. You think it was self defense?

      Sundance Cracker: Trayvon was planning on making Lean, with Skittles and Ice Tea. The jig is up. There’s 24 DD’s. One of them is Pam Grier. One is Taylor Swift. One is Carly Rae Jepsen. Freakin liberal media scam artists.

      Omara: No further questions

      BDLR: so Sundance Cracker, you run the blog, Conservative Tinfoil Tree?

      Sundance: It’s Conservative Treehouse for god’s sake

      BDLR: Is it true you were not there?

      Sundance: Yes

      BDLR: So how do you draw your illogical conclusion?

      Sundance: It’s Omara’s fault. He is not a good lawyer. He ratted on Fogen about the money and passport he hid. West is the man. I helped him catch DD in the hospital lies.

      BDLR: So you think DD was lying about, ending up going to the hospital or SOMEWHERE? LOL

      Sundance: Your or somewhere crap will not fly with me, pal. You freakin race traitor. The blacks, jews, and Chinese will take over America, and let in the Mexicans.

      BDLR: Have you been drinking?

  21. Bill Taylor says:

    are people and resources being exploited in china? cuba? were those things happening behind the iron curtain?

    • groans says:

      Capitalism, alone, is not a sustainable from a societal standpoint. Like a game of Monopoly, eventually everything of value is acquired by the “winner(s).” Then it’s game over. Nothing left to acquire unless you bring in new players – but then you just do the same to them. It’s inherently unsustainable, not to mention morally corrupt in that it depends on stomping out others’ abilities to survive in order to satisfy the winners’ insatiable greed.

  22. Bill Taylor says:

    my comments about socialism are the general concept NOT the many differing ways it has been used around the globe.

    the concept is are we are of a group with OBLIGATIONS to that group based on what the majority of that group decides?

    OR are we individuals with LIBERTY accountable only for our own conduct and NOT subject to the whims of the ever changing majority?

    • Jun says:

      No, you are twisting socialism to represent militant rule

      socialism, implies social, therefore, everyone’s say in a matter

      deciding on a majority vote is a democratic method

      • Bill Taylor says:

        yes and the founders REJECTED democracy because it is merely MOB rule and nobody has liberty.

        the voting was done long ago when they ratified the constitution, THAT vote put in place the rules and they clearly state that we have natural rights that NO government may take away.

        the democratic part comes in with changing, indeed if you can get the super majority required to amend then have at it.

        also i am puzzled by the anger i am sensing in some recent posts to me?????

    • Are you referring to the anti-democratic liberty to be selfish, exploiting people and natural resources in the name of greed?

      • Bill Taylor says:

        WOW, i merely presented my opinion.

        and NOTHING i posted supports in any way “exploiting people and natural resources in the name of greed?”

        under our constitution those things are ILLEGAL and we have courts to settle disputes when people get harmed or their property gets harmed.

        LIBERTY, sire, comes with responsibility to NOT harm others to NOT exploit them and indeed to PRESERVE things for future generations!

      • Puck says:

        With respect, Bill, you presented your ideological opinions as fact.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        with equal respect, i honestly dont recall doing that, please show me where i did?

      • Malisha says:

        Professor, how COULD you! We have been told over and over again that the liberty you refer to is to be selfish exploiting people and natural resources in the name of FREEDOM! Not GREED! Kindly do a global replace. 🙄

      • Puck says:

        @Bill Taylor

        “the basic tenet of socialism is irrational in the extreme in that it rewards being lazy and punishes hard work.”

        ’nuff said.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        TY for now i shall elaborate…..indeed the concept is that nobody owns property even the fruits of their own labor that all is owned by the collective and each person gets their basic needs met and NOBODY get to keep the fruits of their own labor……..indeed that IS punishing hard work by taking away from the person that did the MOST work, and giving it to the weakest that cant perform……soon people catch on that whether i work hard or not i still get the exact same stuff, and soon those working hardest STOP because they have no incentive to work that hard.

        indeed it is irrational to claim that a person is NOT entitled to the crops they planted except for enough to feed them, while taking the rest and giving it to the folks that didnt bother to plant anything!

        and please note i have made not one hateful comment about any person here, i have only presented my opinion and now backed it up.

        i am not angry with anyone here in any way, i enjoy a good debate.

        • Well Bill…….You just gave a PERFECT example of some unions I’ve belonged to……..As an aerospace machinist we had a guy in our dept…..same pay grade…all the benefits……9 years there.

          They WOULD NOT let him on a machine because he was a total screw up….BUT he had made his “probationary period” so they couldn’t fire him……for the same money as the rest of us….he was basically our dept.s go fer and coffee maker..

          So all unions are socialist ?

        • You assume most people would prefer not to work and mooch of the few who do like to work.

          I believe work is its own reward and given a choice between working and not working, the vast majority of people would choose to work.

          That is why I support a right to work and be paid a reasonable wage, plus benefits.

          Yes, the government should guarantee that anyone who is willing to work will have a job.

          Label that idea with any “ism” that you want.

          I don’t care about isms.

          I care about people.

      • Puck says:

        @Bill Taylor

        Thank you for your elaboration on your opinion of what socialism is.

      • Malisha says:

        Bill Taylor, I agree that certain things are forbidden by the Constitution. Great. But if you claim that some constitutional rights were taken away by the illegal or merely tortious action of somebody, you have to either get a federal prosecutor to draw charges (wait a long time for that? I think so) or you have to hire a lawyer to sue them under the civil rights act, so you can come before a federal judge who will promptly dismiss your claim for failure to state a cause of action.

        Constitutional rights are not what we call “self-executing.” You can have them. It sometimes feels good to have them. But you can’t do diddly-squat to protect them if someone decides to take them from you. And all like that.

    • groans says:

      @ Bill Taylor, regarding:

      … the voting was done long ago when they ratified the constitution, THAT vote put in place the rules…

      So, please be clear:

      Do you prefer the rules enacted at that time – e.g., voting rights only for white men (And was it only landowners? I’m not sure about that….)?

      Do you long for the “good old days” of on or about 1776?

      Are ALL “rule changes” since that time unjustifiable, in your view – i.e., was everything “etched in stone” and immutable as of on or about 1776?

  23. When I first heard the accusation of socialism, I always thought it really was a backhanded attempt at calling Obama, Hitler. Obama to Socialism to National Socialism to Nazi to Hitler. I never thought they really believed it or even knew what it was, I just always thought they just needed to demonize Obama.

    • Puck says:

      Precisely my area of expertise. They don’t know what socialism or communism or Marxism or fascism (what I call ‘whateverism’ in my work) are. They just know they’re bad, and most importantly, not American. The “othering” of Barack Obama serves as a collective painting him as Other, as not one of us, as illegitimate, as evil; the recursive effect of this is to provide a measure of solidarity to those who believe they, and only they, represent the “real” American self. Witness the Tea Party “taking our country back,” ‘our’ country meaning ‘their’ country, not the country of those Others who elected Obama twice. So no, they don’t know what they’re talking about in terms of ideology or political systems – they just need to demonize Obama, and importantly, they need to do it together. (I will resist getting into the phenomenological result among the collective that the expression of such othering produces…)

      (I’ve written paper after paper and then a thesis on this, so blurbs like the above just flow out of me.)

      • Why resist the Borg hive mind? They believe or desperately want to believe or want you to believe even though they know its a lie all information from an organized misinformation campaign that is dissimenated by news pundits who’s opinions are directly from an aristocracy that wants a public that is easily manipulated and needs to do so by inflaming them with hatemongering towards minority groups that makes them ignore all logic.

        To put it simply, they’re racist, sexist, homophobic to the very core of their bones and anything that is on the side of the very party that supports those minority groups is considered false despite the truth like global warming for example.

      • Puck says:

        @Leroy Eugene Hudson

        I’ve actually developed a new theoretical model that we can use to understand how the Right has gone nutters in the past four years since the election of a black president, and the role of the conservative media entertainment complex (and its figureheads) in this. I posit that this is an actual psychosocial pathology among the Right with significant similarities to the etiologies of mass psychogenic illness (mass hysteria). Just waiting for it to pass peer review next month, which is virtually guaranteed (knock wood).

      • Nef05 says:

        @Puck – you’ve developed a theoretical model for what is known colloquially as “ODS = Obama Derangement Syndrome”? Excellent. Please let us know if you publish. I would be very interested in more detail. My background is in Psych, so this topic has fascinated me for years, for obvious reasons.

      • Puck says:


        Obama Derangement Syndrome is part of it, though my focus is moreso on the mechanics that make this and other sociopolitical delusional thought possible, and how these are further manifested through these mechanics. The heart of it is misinformation coming from the conservative political media complex and Republican politicians that, once internalized by susceptible individuals (e.g. Teabaggers, racists), leads to a collective belief of these ‘facts,’ and subsequent operation in a sociopolitical space in which this information is true, leading to a collective phenomenological experience of their own reality.

        Consider conversative pundits’ pronouncements of a guaranteed Romney victory in spite of the real data (e.g. Nate Silver) having shown Obama far ahead during the entire campaign (at least in terms of the Electoral College), and in that last couple of weeks, headed for an almost assured victory. But no: the conservative pundits and politicians had their own data from sites like unskewedpolls.com, and these data were ‘truth.’ Together with their gut feelings (e.g. Peggy Noonan), this meant that Nate Silver was wrong (indeed, they spat on him the entire campaign, just itching to tell him “We told you so!” on election night, though ultimately his polling analyses — which used actual mathematics, not unscientific formulae and gut feelings — were dead on) and Romney was headed to a landslide. So of course the voters believed this, hence their massive collective meltdown upon Obama’s widely-expected (among the reality-based) re-election. Just look at whitepeoplemourningromney.tumblr.com – these are not people angry and upset that their candidate lost. These are hysterical people. It went all the way from the voters to Romney at the top.

        Immediately in the aftermath the liberal pundits started talking about some conservative alternate reality or reality bubble or reality distortion field. I sat there, shaking my head, thinking, “I came up with this model well over a year ago, I predicted that exactly this would happen, and NOW you’re all talking about it!” It was a bit frustrating but at least I knew that the warped reality of conservative sociopolitics was now in the mass consciousness. In any case, I reject the terms “alternate reality,” “reality bubble,” “reality distortion field” and others because they suggest a reality apart from objective reality. My concept (the term for which I cannot use here because it makes me doxable) posits that this ‘reality’ does indeed exist as part of our reality, on the same fabric if you will, and is a direct manifestation of the initial collective belief in Fox-esque ‘facts’ that are anything but. Full circle; I love elegant conceptual models. I love sociology.

        Peer review within the month, and it’s in the bag. 🙂

      • groans says:

        Geez, Puck. You sound like one of those “factinistas” that Colbert has warned us about! 😆

      • groans says:

        I wish I had stayed up late enough on election night 2012 to have witnessed what my husband told me about. He was still up and – out of curiosity because there was no Romney concession (apparently because none had been contemplated or prepared) – tuned in to Fauxnews. He described a bizarre scenario in which Grover Norquist was in a televised denial and melt-down, freaking out and yelling at people on the set and backstage not to concede!

      • Puck says:


        Colbert’s ‘truthiness’ is actually the springboard for one of the elements of my theoretical model.

        And on election night it was Karl Rove, not Norquist, but hey, they’re all kind of the same: puffy, bespectacled, self-aggrandized bloviators.

      • Nef05 says:

        This is great! Hopefully we’ll be able to read it soon. Can’t wait to read the nuances of your position of “our reality” vs. “alternate reality”. Hopefully, it may be available in a multi-authored journal that you can quietly recommend, without fear of doxing. Looking forward to it, Puck. Good Luck!

      • groans says:

        Yes, of course it was Karl Rove. My bad. I just could NOT think of his name last night!

        (But I WAS picturing Colbert’s ham loaf!)

  24. colin black says:

    onlyiamunitron says:

    March 23, 2013 at 5:22 pm

    “Dave mentions that the feds believe…”

    How does he know what they believe?


    Easy read there manifesto of the Federal Burea of Investigation.

    There motto is Fidelity Bravery Integrity.

    Thats what they swear an oath to on the day they become an agent.

    • willisnewton says:

      EXCUSE ME? The FBI has a terrible reputation of corruption, intimidation, lies and blackmail. Google “cointelpro” for a start.

      Their “fidelity” is to the power of their own agency and little else, certainly not truth or justice.

      Their “bravery” has in the past been that of an armed mob of goons, secure in the knowledge of their ability to do as they please despite what’s right or wrong.

      Their “integrity” isn’t worth the sweat off my arse, IMO.

      I’m sure the Neighborhood Watch has a motto to but I’d hardly point to it as “proof” the GZ is credible, as you seem to be doing here with the FBI. I hope you were joking when you wrote that.

      I’m with Unitron here, on this point. IMO Frank Taafe and Dave have no credible inside information from the “feds” regarding where TM entered the Retreat. If either of them has anything at all, it is hearsay at best.

      In addition, I don’t have much faith in the FBI’s work on this case in particular, especially since they didn’t do very much if any real work on the case AT ALL. They were charged with looking into, briefly, the idea that GZ may have committed a hate crime, and NOT investigating the SPD, Norm Wolfinger, or the killing itself.

      This was handled by the SPD, the special prosecutor’s in house investigators and the FDLE. The FBI may have lent some expertise in certain aspects when requested, but this has never been their case to handle and they are NOT on the job.

      As for “bravery,” it’s very likely that Melvin Pervis, a media “hero” of the FBI ordered a fellow agent to shoot the wounded Pretty Boy Floyd in cold blood as he lay wounded on the ground.

      Nor were they “brave” in the disgraceful way they handled the “Red Power” movement of the 1960-70s surrounding the efforts to thwart community based efforts to root out corruption on the reservations. Arming vigilantes, suborning perjury and bugging the legal offices of their opponents is hardly “brave.”

      Attempting to blackmail Martim Luther King wasn’t an example of “integrity” IMO either.

      The list goes on. Perhaps the “modern” post Hoover FBI has redeemed its’ reputation somewhat, but it’s a steep uphill road IMO and I’d not consider they had reached the top until they had a 50 or 60 year history or being an agency with a good reputation, since that’s they legacy they need to overcome.

      • Don’t forget the FBI Crime Lab while you’re at it. They haven’t comported themselves very well either.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Oh man what an understatement… I was horrified when Martz altered his machine settings in the OJ trial, then discarded the data so the test could not be duplicated. So we had EDTA but only the one ion and the daughter ion was hidden in the noise. I had to battle with Dimitri a chemistry student at UCLA over that for several months. I finally convinced him that although we couldn’t be dead certain that the daughter ion was there, the choices of alternative compounds that could, would or should be present in blood, or even just found in nature, were so vanishingly unlikely to outright impossible that we could safely conclude that EDTA was the only rational possibility. But that bit with the FBI lab was nothing less than astonishing.

  25. colin black says:

    In one of attorney Crumps first interveiws with the medis an the disclosure of wit8.
    He tells of Trayvons walk back from the store to buy candy an a can of juice.
    He says that he hits the code an enters through the gate.

    Now I havent heard him say that again either about the code an entering through the front gate.

    • Nor have I heard the defense say anything about it. We know GZ couldn’t have seen TM come through the shortcut because TM was already under the mailboxes before GZ even left the house according to witness 8(dee dee).

      This is real curious because I wonder if the gate is open or locked at a certain time and why would Crump say something about a gate and a code and ascribe that to Dee Dee so she would end up bearing the blame if it isn’t true? And if the gate locks after a certain time of day, he would need a code to get in and GZ obviously couldn’t say he saw him come through the gate or he would know that this “kid” actually had business there. Another question is: wouldn’t the gate have a log of times people who came in and out?

      • Xena says:

        The gate for pedestrians locks at 7 p.m. Can’t remember exactly where I read that but IIRC, it’s in discovery and might be one of the HOA’s Newsletters.

      • Malisha says:

        I think you’ll find that the management company for RTL will have not had any records that could be useful to find out ANYTHING about the crime committed that night. Just a hunch. They seem good at not knowing what might place liability on the doorstep of the HOA, if you catch my drift.

  26. Jun says:

    to support Fogenhats, you would have be irrational and throw out all logic, science and physics and innocent people can be framed

    Fogenhats has contradicted himself and lied so many times in his claim of self defense, I doubt it could be explained away as misspeaking, as it sounds pre-meditated and planned and coached

    In all honesty, it would take me all day to go through all of Fogenhats’ and his gang members irrationality and inconsistencies and contradictions

    but hey, Crump “lies”, right (sarcasm) LMAO

    I think 2 of the silliest things they claim is that it is the dispatcher’s fault that Fogen decided to get out of his car and stalk and pursue and chase a teenage kid, utilizing a gun

    Then they claim it is media lies when you tell them that Fogen’s car was by the clubhouse when he got out to pursue Trayvon, pursuing using a gun when the defendant, said that himself and gave evidence of this fact, on his police phone call during the incident the defendant created and started

    Then they fail to realize the two parking spots that Fogen claimed on his NEN call compared to his “reenactment” day, are in direct contradiction, and he can’t be at two places at once

    The GPS records are going to show Fogen is a liar

    • manberk says:

      @Jun So true. The very basis of their argument is irrational. That theres nothing wrong with GZs auto and foot pursuit of an invited guest and a innocent US citizen. If we remove the context of this case and the shooting of a black kid, I believe the same people would be shouting about the person being followed’s rights. You cant even get most to approach whether it the pursuit was right or wrong. They start their narrative at the T for a reason. It excludes behavior that they cannot rationalize away.

      • Jun says:

        Also logically speaking

        1) a kid with only skittles, ice tea, a cell phone, and $40, is running away, trying to get away from the defendant. Is 158 pounds, scrawny, 5’11, absolutely no history of violence and has no combat training nor knows how to fight

        2) The defendant, an adult, long history of violence of attacking police officers, women. Long history of bullying and victimizing others, stalking and harassment. Chasing unarmed kid with a gun, as kid is trying to run away. Defendant has long history of combat experience and even worked as a bouncer.

        It’s easy to see, who was the real party in danger, and that is the kid with candy walking home and then trying to run away from the defendant

        • manberk says:

          Youre right. Theres a reason GZ is trying to cover for his running comments. They show TM was the one who was freighted after GZ closed in on him refusing to ID himself- all according to GZs own story. A rational person who suggest TM would have felt fear and a need to protect himself. Especially as GZ lifted his jacket to reach into his pocket/waistband/gun.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “2) The defendant, an adult, long history of violence of attacking police officers, women. Long history of bullying and victimizing others, stalking and harassment. Chasing unarmed kid with a gun, as kid is trying to run away. Defendant has long history of combat experience and even worked as a bouncer.”

          Combat experience?

          Iraq? Afghanistan? In the Army? The Marines? Was he a Navy SEAL?

          Police officers (plural) implies more than just the single undercover alcohol agent. Who were the others?


      • Jun says:


        Look at the reports yourself

        He attacked more than one police officer that night

        Combat is more than just military

      • Jun says:

        Combat (defined) To engage in fighting; contend or struggle

        Fogen’s experience with combat and violence

        1) Beating up his ex
        2) Beating up lady at his security job for no reason and was described by coworkers as flipping out and losing his marbles. Fired for being a liability.
        3) Attacked police officers
        4) Went on psychotic patrols, where he fantasized that he was Officer Johnson of Twin Trees PD, and threatened and scared neighbors with his gun
        5) Stalked and terrorized an 8 year old boy and accused him of stealing a bike. Police confirmed the kid never stole the bike and it belonged to the kid.
        6) Molested and attempted to rape his cousin

        There’s more but that’s all I can think of at the top of my head

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

          from “Through The Looking Glass” by Lewis Carroll

          But for most people, the phrase “combat experience” implies military service someplace where there’s shooting going on.


      • Trained Observer says:

        Fogen was let go as a bouncer because he was deemed temperamental and overly aggressive.

        Yes, he had a run-in with more than one undercover cop the night he was arrested.

        And he had dust-ups with more than one woman, including one woman he tried to manhandle in his role as a bouncer.

      • Malisha says:

        Fogen’s combat experience is limited to incidents where “there is shooting going on” but only by HIM. He would not want to engage in the kind of combat where the OTHER person could also shoot. He can beat up a woman, throw a drunk party-going woman across a room and break her ankle, and stalk and kill an unarmed kid. But he’s not going to seek or get into the kind of “combat experience” where the OTHER guy is also a combattant. Nuh-uh, nossir, that’s not for HIM.

      • groans says:

        @ Unitron: 🙄

        There you go again! The “wannabe word cop” – despite the professor’s recent admonition to you to “Stop it.”


        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “There you go again! The “wannabe word cop” – despite the professor’s recent admonition to you to “Stop it.” ”

          I eagerly await the professor’s written ruling that “combat experience” and “shoving a couple of women around” are synonymous.


      • Jun says:


        Perhaps, experience as a bully who inflicted violence, harassment, and stalking on others?

        I would say he has combat experience, or is just stupid, since he was not afraid to attack police officers, police whom had guns and were fully grown adults

      • leander22 says:

        Jun, basically I agree that the job of a bouncer seems to demand some basic training, but I am with unitron, combat experience is a bit far fetched, and it some time ago. Muscle loose their strength, if you do not train regularly.

        On the other hand, yes, I heard the argument that soldiers at Trayvon’s age are perfectly able to kill. … Why use their arguments the other way round?

        Then they claim it is media lies when you tell them that Fogen’s car was by the clubhouse when he got out to pursue Trayvon

        I may be misunderstanding, but I don’t think the evidence supports he left his car by the clubhouse. I think we have don’t any information besides audios of the officer running the car tags, where the car was. In any case, I don’t think he did in fact check tags as far as the clubhouse, but only nearby. It feels checking cars had to do with trying to figure out who Trayvon was. I somehow doubt it was done to check GZ’s narrative. Santiago, the narcotics officer, ordered to check car tags.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Combat means the ability to engage an opponent in a physical fight. Combat does not always mean a firefight. There is “hand-to-hand” combat and that’s exactly what bar bouncers and security “muscle” men are expected to be able to accomplish. In fact, an untrained bouncer or security person is likely to cause more damage than necessary. Because they will lack confidence, they will encourage a fight where a show of self confidence would have prevented one.

          As you can see here, combat does not mean firefight. GZ was expected, as part of his job description to be capable and confident that he could engage in combat with patrons if need be and succeed in handling the situation successfully. We do not need to go into the semantic of the word combat, but if anyone feels they do, they should at least be good enough to consult a dictionary, encyclopedia or other authoritative source.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “There is “hand-to-hand” combat and that’s exactly what bar bouncers and security “muscle” men are expected to be able to accomplish.”

            Bouncers are supposed to stop fights before they start, and to be able to eject unruly patrons, but if your bouncer is actually fighting someone, actually trading punches, something’s gone wrong.


          • Lonnie Starr says:

            You’re just creating an argument where there is none! It matters not what a bouncer is supposed to try to do. Of course they’re supposed to try to settle matters as quietly with as little fuss as possible. But that is not always possible. There will come times when the bouncer will have to fight. For that a bouncer must be prepared. It’s part of the the job description of a bouncer to be prepared to do combat with customers if and when it is required. Bouncers are required to fight when it becomes necessary, fighting is combat. What is there to argue? Nothing, the case has been reasonably and correctly stated.

      • leander22 says:

        Thanks for the link Lonnie, stored for more time.

        unitron, from the bouncers I witnessed over here, yes stopping fights but sometimes also transporting an unruly guest out. That suggests training and physical capabilities to me. I somehow cannot reconcile that fact with his story. On the other hand I need some type of extra tuition on the requirements, abilities you need to be hired for such a job. And GZ does not look like the typical bouncer I have seen over here.

    • Bill Taylor says:

      i have always thought that his nen call placed the truck right by the mailboxes both when he got out of the truck(he described Martin coming towards him after martin being near the clubhouse and the mailboxes/truck placement would mean martin walked right by that location) and again later when discussing the meeting place, the operator says meet by the mailboxes and at first fogen says ok……IF his truck wasnt there seems he would have said NO by my truck at that time and then clarified where it was?

      again him saying yes to the mailboxes confirms the earlier placement and the point where he exited.

      • manberk says:

        I think that too Bill. He turned the one incident of TM coming towards him into separate interactions. One by the clubhouse, and one on TT when he points to the grass showing us TMs path. They could not have both happened based on time. So for some reason hes stretching out his story. TM probably started running closer to the location of the mailbox, if it even really started there at all.

      • colin black says:

        I know an yet to LE Officer the lady I think Sinclair.
        She asks him to mark his trucks position when he exited.
        At first he marks it near the mail boxes but still on the street of the cut through begins.
        Then qickly re positions the truck to nearer the spot he claims just before the curve .
        An near the path that leads ocross the cut through.
        To the next street an the T intersection.

        But as the reconstruction vt reaches the street he says he was looking for an adress.
        He throws in oh back by the T thats where I was when the dispatcher asked me are you following him.

        An he said I was but only because I was going the same way .
        But he also says an I told them to meet me at my truck grey honda ridge line its right there by the club house.
        But a few minutes earlier he is tellingt them the truck is by the curve by the path.?

        Anyway he didnt say that to the dispatcher after agreeing to the mail box meet he suddenly switches to .
        Oh just have them call me an I will let them know where Im at.
        Why didnt they question him on that inconsistancy where was the truck.
        By the curve we are parked at now were you said you exited.
        Or at the club house or by the mail boxes.

        Hopefully the State will ask him to clarify that if he ever takes the stand.

      • manberk says:

        @Colin he moves the spot of his truck with Singleton I believe. His instructions to NEN were “make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck.” If his truck was all the way down TT I doubt the police could see it as they passed the mailbox. Its more likely it was right there, where he first placed the X.


      • Jun says:

        He was obviously by the mailboxes and the clubhouse, and you can tell by what he said in the NEN phone call

        and then later in his “reenactment” which I call ZimmLie Fest 2012, he claims they went from the clubhouse to the T, and Trayvon was already there, in a matter of seconds, which is not physically possible and is in direct contradiction to his NEN phone call

        Either way he loses, because in those contradictions alone, he loses credibility and then will have to answer as to why he felt the need to contradict himself and lie about where he parked his car because of the two testimonies he gives, one of them is a lie, both can’t physically happen by itself

        I am partial to believe he was by the clubhouse because he made excited utterances, which he did not have time to plan, hence the term excited utterance, therefore more likely to be true

        The GPS records are going to show that he is a liar and not credible, already as he begins his story

        • Xena says:


          He was obviously by the mailboxes and the clubhouse, and you can tell by what he said in the NEN phone call …

          Right, and also by GZ’s Hannity interview where he said Trayvon did not look like a person getting his mail in the rain and running back in. That confirms that GZ saw Trayvon in the mail shed.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Zena & Jun — I’ve always snickered at that line about not looking like a person getting mail.

        What do people picking up their mail at a condo complex look like? Is there a dress code? White tie and tails, maybe? No hoodies allowed?

        • Xena says:

          @Trained Observer. Since GZ likes to profile, he probably wrote a wardrobe for each day that residents would need to wear in order for him to not judge them.

          Can’t help but wonder whether GZ allows ShelLIE to wear her hair down when in public.

      • pat deadder says:

        He didn’t know where his truck was Shelly moved it IMHO.

      • Malisha says:

        People picking up their mail at the townhouses look white. If people “look[s] pba-lack,” they look like they’re up to no good.

      • Jun says:

        You know what’s silly is Fogen comes off really selfish and can not see it from another’s point of view and their feelings as it is all about him

        It is like when he molested, sexually assaulted and attempted to rape his cousin for about a decade… he never thought about how his cousin felt

        When he beat up his ex, he never thought about how the other person felt

        And he tries to make it seem like to a teenage kid, a complete stranger, stalking him in a car with a flashlight at night time, is supposed to be innocent when anyone would be on edge about that

        But no, apparently Trayvon was scoping out houses LOL Fuck crowbars, Skittles and Ice Tea are the tools to break into houses and commit burglaries LMAO, according to his crazy gang that he formed

        Junior is just as ridiculous… he attacks DD, calling her a liar, but was not he on the phone calls helping Fogen scam the court LOL Who’s he to call anyone a liar? He’s a damn scam artist hisself

        Technically speaking, the only party that night, that there is evidence of, scoping out the neighborhood, and houses, was Fogen…

        • Xena says:

          @Jun. When GZ bullied his Middle-Eastern co-worker, he didn’t how that made the man feel. He even tried scamming his co-worker to split sales with him. Bullies to that. They progress in their demands thinking that because they have made their victims feel awful, that their victims will give-in further.

          When GZ didn’t pay his rent, called the cops on his landlord and said that the house was in foreclosure, it probably never occurred to him that the landlord could not pay mortgage unless he paid his rent.

          When he used over $35,000 paying off his pre-Feb. 26th debts, he didn’t care how it made donors feel who thought they were assisting him with paying his living expenses and legal costs.

          Do you think he cares that he and ShelLIE are named defendants on the AIS lawsuit? Heck no. For all GZ cares, O’Mara can pay that along with representing him for free. He doesn’t care how O’Mara feels about that.

      • Jun says:

        I can actually see the judge and jury seeing that Fogen is a selfish creep

        If Fogen actually does take the stand, he’s gonna lose it and flip out LOL

        I think during trial West and Omara will get objected a lot on hearsay and leading, and assuming facts not in evidence, an irrelevance

        • Xena says:

          @Jun. O’Mara and West will be fools to put GZ on the stand. If they do, we will have another Jodi Arias trial with him on the stand for 2 days of testimony and 10 days of cross-examination. LOL!!

          Oh there will be lots of objections by the prosecution, just like the Arias trial. Each time she started off with what someone else said, “OBJECTION. Hearsay.”

      • willisnewton says:

        GZ marked a map singleton produced during her first interview. The exchange is recoded on the second “tape” because she paused the interview to go and print out the google maps page. She was already suspicious of his bullshit…. George marked the first corner of Twin Trees Lane (near the mailbox) as the position he drove to after leaving the clubhouse parking lot on RVC.

        The problem is, the security cams don’t show a car stopping in the clubhouse parking lot, they show a vehicle trolling the mail kiosk and then driving down by the second bend in TTL. After a pause where it’s impossible to tell, what happens is a car returns facing the mail kiosk and seems to turn its lights off.

        George maked where he stopped the FIRST time, and where he was already speaking to the NEN call taker when he said something very important: “yeah, and now he’s coming toward me” in response to being asked where the teen was, and if that was “by the clubhouse now.”

        Tellingly however when GZ marked this position on singletons map he quickly amended it, crossing out the mail kiosk position and instead adding the down by the cut thru position, which he also uses in his “re-enactment” video.

        What’s the truth? Using only GZs own words on the NEN call and the timing of a pedestrian walking its clear that GZ MOVED during his NEN call. GZ himself wanted the SPD to believe he moved during the call- from parking lot to cut thru, on the direction of the NEN call taker. That never happened, but he did move during the call, and he says as much.

        But if he were already parked by the Cut thru, and the teen were “near the clubhouse now” when he begins walking to pass the vehicle, he’d be traveling at a rate of speed that would carry him far out of GZs sight by the time GZ claims he sees him running. I call this the “long tail” theory.

        If instead one places the teen “near the clubhouse ” and the vehicle on the first bend of TTL and examines the timing, you have a normal walking pace that agrees very well with what’s suggested on the NEN recording – TM passing the car and reaching the second bend before running off the roadway.

        Why would be do this? Because GZ is shadowing him down TTL with his vehicle in a slow motion car to pedestrian chase, that’s why.

        GZ told many lies in order to obscure and obfuscate and omit this car to pedestrian chase. But the timing of a fast walk, trot or jog that aligns with the wind noises during the “are you following him/yeah ” also align with the distance from the cut thru parking spot to the sidewalk T intersection right at the moment he stops moving fast and says “he ran.”

        GZ has many inconsistencies and contradictions regarding his movements from clubhouse vicinity to cut thru area- all or most of which can be reconciled if one theorizes he’s lying to omit the car to pedestrian chase.

        The theory proves itself well using ONLY the NEN call, a map and a stopwatch. However it is amply supported by his interviews with SPD, the clubhouse videos and of course Dee Dee’s narrative, especially her first recordings with Ben Crump, where she EXPLICITLY explains the car to pedestrian chase happening. Sadly however neither Crump nor more importantly BDLR seemed to grasp this detail. BDLR never asked her specifically about a car to pedestrian chase, so she doesn’t speak of it with him.

        I’m sensing a small faction on this blogs thinks GZ exited his vehicle by the mail kiosk. I disagree with this and offer the “long tail” theory, GZs own recollections, the clubhouse videos, Dee Dee’s crump/abc news interview and the map he marked for singleton as evidence regarding this very important car to pedestrian chase and its timing and positioning.

        This theory was peer reviewed by the folks at BCC list and is illustrated in whonoze aka treeslaw’s YouTube video.

        This IMO is a very important way for the state to prove GZ pushed a false narrative and more importantly established a PATTERN of lies that can be suggested to a jury which he continued into the account of his “missing minutes.” When in doubt George leaves it out. And where he was the one closing a gap he claims it was the unarmed teen.

        Immediately after GZ crossed out the mail kiosk proximity parking position is when GZ first related the (impossible) tale of TM “doubling back/ circling the vehicle.” It’s a fantasy but a telling one. IMO GZ is conflating TMs alleged actions with some of his own here- GZ himself “doubled back” his car to chase the teen down TTL, and this intimidation is what he tries to shift to the teen.

        Again, I feel the prosecution could use ONLY GZs own words to show a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that he chased the kid down TTL with his car. The defense would then have to somehow impeach George himself to refute this, whic of course is tantamount to admitting they have no case whatsoever. The clubhouse videos and Dee Dee are supporting evidence only, but compelling each alone. All together it’s a lead pipe cinch to destroy GZs credibility and IMO the basis of a great mantra to have to jury hear repeated again and again : “when in doubt George leaves it out” and “what George did he blames on a kid.”

      • Jun says:

        There was no way for Deedee nor Trayvon to know about the foot chase till later on, like a few minutes later

        We will know when we see the GPS records

    • Xena says:

      The clubhouse videos also prove that GZ’s story is false. In one of Dave’s videos with Taaffe, Dave mentions that the feds believe that Trayvon entered that community in a place other than by Taaffe’s house. The feds would not say that without supporting evidence.

      GZ is going to prison for the rest of his life.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “Dave mentions that the feds believe…”

        How does he know what they believe?


        • Xena says:

          @onlyiamunitron. You can keep up by watching the videos posted on this blog, or by following Dave’s blog. http://marinadedave.com/

          That way, you will avoid appearing like an agitator and one who questions the credibility of others as you can go straight to the source with your questions. It might help that you know some of Dave’s experience and history before you question his credibility.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Just to go the extra mile, I went to go watch that video again, and inside the first 30 seconds (after the musical intro) Frank Taaffe tells Dave that the FBI told him (Taaffe) where they think Trayvon entered.

            Frank Taaffe as a reliable source for what the Feds think?



          • Xena says:


            …Frank Taaffe tells Dave that the FBI told him (Taaffe) where they think Trayvon entered.

            Frank responded to Dave saying where the feds told him Trayvon entered, which was not by Taaffe’s house.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “Frank responded to Dave saying where the feds told him Trayvon entered, which was not by Taaffe’s house.”

            In the first 30 seconds of the actual video Taaffe says “FBI” 3 times.

            Dave says it ZERO times.


          • Xena says:

            @onlyiamunitron. Maybe you are not watching the video I watched. You can embed the video you are watching if you want, and you can still go straight to the source who is Dave.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena I really hope so because, I’m sending up my prayers everyday that he does. he took this child’s life for no reason what so ever and, it’s high time for him to be held accountable for what he did to that child. in his father’s words to FDLE, make this go away, well it will go away for you Robert Zimmerman Sr when your son in locked up behind prison walls, where he belongs and where you kept him from going time and time again. when ever Fogen committed a crime, you were always there calling in favors from others in the justice system, to make those crimes go away.

        Fogen killed a child in cold blood and, he is not going to get away with it. I have a real good feeling, that when the state is finished with him, the feds are going to have a whack at his murdering fat ass.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, I’d like to see a photo of him as he walks through those prison gates, crying all the way to his cell. if he almost lost it when he was first locked up in county jail, I can imagine that he will totally lose what little mind he has.

        The cards are stacked against him even before he get there. I sure wouldn’t want to be him.

        • Xena says:


          @Xena, I’d like to see a photo of him as he walks through those prison gates, crying all the way to his cell.

          We’ll see GZ’s reaction when the jury hands down its verdict of guilty, and we’ll see his reaction when the judge hands down sentencing of life in prison. IMO, GZ and his legal team see the handwriting on the wall which is why they have abandoned an immunity hearing.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Xena@5:36pm, this is why I think he/she is something other than someone who is seeking the TRUTH, rather than just being an agitator on this blog. one couldn’t help but think of this person in that way because of some of his/her comments.

        • Xena says:


          Xena@5:36pm, this is why I think he/she is something other than someone who is seeking the TRUTH, rather than just being an agitator on this blog. ….

          There is a pattern of being the word police to question, demean, and IMO, for the purpose of causing distraction. The way I see it, I repeated something that Dave has on video. If unitron questions it, he can watch the video and contact Dave.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “…rather than just being an agitator on this blog.”

          There’s no need to be an agitator here when so many of the commenters show up pre-agitated.

          It’d be like carrying coals to Newcastle.


      • Xena says:

        Unitron, listen to Dave’s words before Taaffe speaks. It’s not what Taaffe says about the FBI that is questioned, but his bigotvoyence that is questioned unless he was there and saw where Trayvon entered.

      • Malisha says:

        Unitron, at one point FOgen said that an “investigator” told him that Trayvon was angry because he knew that Fogen had called the police! Taaffe apparently claimed that the FBI told HIM that Trayvon entered the RTL at a certain place. All that is nonsense. Neither of them was told anything by either the FBI or the “investigators.” Besides, how would they (FBI or “investigators”) know the things Taaffe and Fogen claimed to have been told by them? That’s just more of their fantasy stuff.

      • groans says:

        @ Unitron: 🙄

        Ho hum…..

      • Xena says:


        There’s no need to be an agitator here when so many of the commenters show up pre-agitated.

        So that gives you the right to further agitate rather than help those you assume are agitated by giving them something positive?

      • Jun says:

        Possibly but from my understanding, the feds like to do trial by ambush, and are allowed to do it…

        so I do not feel they would tell Taffe that, however, they may say that to get information from Taffe

        • Xena says:


          so I do not feel they would tell Taffe that, however, they may say that to get information from Taffe

          In the alternative, they already had the GPS for Trayvon’s phone. As another alternative, we can take a clue from Junior’s mantra. Was Taaffe there? Has Taaffe ever said where he was that evening?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Civil Twilight would be ending as Trayvon neared the front gate. Of course, it being overcast, the light of twilight is diffused greatly so you don’t get the normal deep shadows that make for silhouettes at twilight. Instead you get a higher level of ambient lighting. Still, Trayvon, being relatively unfamiliar with the community, would hardly have felt comfortable walking between buildings. Brandi and Tracey feel that Trayvon would have used the front gate. Attorney Crump relates “he hit the code”, which seems to imply that Trayvon used the front gate and there may be evidence that he did in the entry system.

        If this should prove to be the case, then, added to the fact that GZ never parks in front of the clubhouse, where he claims to have been when he started his NeN call. Then the jurors will have to figure out why GZ fails to tell the truth so many times?

        1. Is it because he’s actually innocent, but thinks the truth won’t be believed?

        2. Or, could it be that he’s actually guilty, and he must lie to conceal that fact?

        Which one do you think is more likely? My guess is #2.

        • “I’ll take #2 for $5,000.00 Alex”

        • Xena says:

          @Lonnie Starr

          Which one do you think is more likely? My guess is #2.

          Indeed. In the same manner, the day after killing Trayvon, GZ knew he was wrong to have gotten out of his vehicle to follow Trayvon — or he would not have lied about it.

          That is what his supporters skip over when they argue there’s no law that says you can’t get out of your vehicle. Okay. So why did GZ lie about why he got out? He answered the dispatcher in the affirmative that he was following. That is recorded.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            They forget that, the law has been hundreds of years in the making. Just as the law recognizes that there are situations where a person will be justified in breaking the law. The law also recognizes that some actions, although normally legal, are not to be recognized as legal if the purpose for doing them is to facilitate breaking the law.

            The law offers to protect NW from assaults that the law realizes they may suffer for doing what they do. But, the law predicates giving that protection to NW’ers who have clearly identified themselves.

            Apparently GZ did not feel he needed any such protection at law, why? Well, for one thing, he’d have had to admit that he was a NW’er engaged in a lawful NW activity. That was something he could not do, because that would also have deprived him of his ability to lawfully mount an assault. After all, as a NW he was not supposed to have a weapon, so that would have been held against him and therefore he could not win either a SYG/immunity hearing or even claim SD, since he would be responsible for bringing the weapon to the fight.

            So, the only way GZ has a chance to claim self defense is, he has to somehow make everyone believe that he was not on NW, when he claims he was attacked.

            But, since GZ calls the NW assigned NeN number and he expresses concern about the safety of the neighborhood as his primary cause for springing into action. He is actually performing NW duties, while ignoring NW rules. He did not just get out of his truck, which would have been legal. But he got out of his truck for the purpose of doing what the NW rules prohibited. Namely following a suspect and doing so while armed. It is that illegal purpose that makes exiting the truck illegal. Because he does so for an unlawful purpose.

  27. manberk says:

    How does DDs lack of a hospital record compare with the accused murderer who is also unable to provide documentation he went to the hospital for his broken nose and/or shaken baby syndrome? Just sayn.

  28. manberk says:

    Is someone transcribing Faux News or am I in the wrong place?

    • Puck says:

      I’m trying to counter with reality and evidence but apparently despite holding three degrees in sociology I have no idea what socialism and liberalism are. I tried the same with the global warming denial but that comment’s still awaiting moderation.

      • Malisha says:

        Puck, let me help you out.

        Socialism is when you go to a lot of parties all the time.
        Liberalism is when you don’t want to wear a bra.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Malisha, that makes a majority of men liberals!

      • Trained Observer says:

        Malisha — People who wear camishapers to parties may well be socialists.

        Be that as it may, my recommendation for the Fogen missus is that she pick up a couple before her trial or his, whichever comes first.

      • Malisha says:

        MMPat, communism is when a guy goes to a party and screws every WOMAN there. And that is why communism is doomed to failure. 😈

      • leander22 says:

        Puck, I appreciated your comments a lot.

        At one point in time I noticed that the talks you overhear in our local university library tended to be more and more about economics. One such conversation between two students was about the term: sustainable. One had no idea what it was meant to signify. The other, apparently slightly senior went to great length to explain it. It took quite a while till it finally seemed to click in the synapses.

        Concerning socialism: Don’t we move towards a different type of economic socialism from the bottom up? Admittedly I feared that as a consequence of America winning the Cold War. No more balance: And the winner is! Economic socalisms: one earns with nuclear energy, the taxpayer pays the bills for “permanent repository”. What about the top rated energy business in the US for several years, till it failed and the dirty tricks showed more vividly. Enron? Anybody? Or take the recent elaborate games in the field of speculation with the taxpayer ultimately paying the bill. Or the tricked people that believed one does not need much money to buy a house. I remember a triple A US fund with returns too hard to believe. What about the rating agencies, who pays the price–the tricksters or the tricked?– when they were unfortunately mistaken, like everybody else they try to tell us. …

        Concerning the ecosystemAprès moi, le déluge.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The big “trick” in understanding the idea of an “economy” is obscured by the “values” of things and the mediums of exchange and their relation to the commodities, goods and services they can buy. On top of this complexity we build another layer, which I’ll call “first order derivatives”, performance agreements, promissory notes, contracts, pledges as well as stocks and bonds. Note that none of these papers are worth a farthing, if not for the performance of some underlying entity, quantity or organization. That’s why they are derivatives. Actually, even gold is a “derivative” of sorts, because it is a “medium of exchange” and therein lies the real secret of “economies”.

          Economies are, in reality, energy exchanges, plainly and simply! The basic function is to store the energy/work/effort of others, in some sort of “recoverable” and therefore useable form.

          A million people could work a million years and never have more than enough provisions to carry them for more than one year, without a medium of exchange. Thus, it becomes impossible to become rich, without some means of storing energy. Thus the creation of a medium of exchange, allows one to store their own work, by being able to pledge the work of others. This is accomplished, in the case of gold for example, by working for a period of time to accumulate several ounces of gold. Since everyone is pretty nearly agreed upon how much work an ounce of gold should purchase, anyone who wants the gold you have accumulated, will have to offer either the prescribed quantity of work, or something that represents it, for which you are willing to trade. Meaning that you are within your rights to work all year, to accumulate enough gold to purchase a piece of art work. That art work may have taken the artist only a few hours to create it, but, if it moves you to have it, you may sacrifice whatever it takes to obtain your own personal satisfaction.

          Of course, that little example exposes some of the inefficiencies of the economic systems. Because values are not set on the same scales. But, as a general rule, such wildly imbalanced exchanges are sequestered to people who have accumulated more than they need, thus they can afford to be extravagant and play fast and loose with the value of the medium of exchange they have amassed.

          Lessor accumulators of these mediums of exchange will have to be more frugal, and better match their expenditures to best match and cover their needs. The medium of exchange holds it’s value, as long as there are enough people with needs and wants that outstrip their power to earn, and therefore their ability to spend.

          The benefit of these mediums of exchange is that energy can be massed. As “pooled capital”, this makes it possible for larger numbers of people to cooperate on ever more complex and time consuming tasks. As well as allowing people to focus on highly specialized tasks. A medium of exchange, in an economy, for example, will allow you to spend your life grinding lenses and perfecting the field, and still be able to have a house, clothing, transportation, be entertained and socialize among other things.

          In the prehistory, for example, a family had to do pretty much everything themselves, from farming to weaving, to herding and building. Never-the-less, as you can see, the entire economy is really just an effective means of exchanging energy, storing, pooling and recovering energy. Think of economies in this way and they become transparent.

      • Puck says:


        My knowledge of political economy is very limited. My earlier discussion centered on ideology and governance. While these are most definitely intertwined with political economy, I can’t really comment. As part of my academic integrity I refrain from speaking on issues on which I am insufficiently informed to have a productive discussion.

        • As part of my academic integrity I refrain from speaking on issues on which I am insufficiently informed to have a productive discussion.

          Wish more people were like you.

          One cannot make any headway discussing topics with willfully ignorant people who regard evidence-based discussion with loathing and contempt.

      • leander22 says:

        Puck, I am no expert either, beyond the little economics and law I did over here, but I also think one should start to worry, if not even professors of economics can reproduce the evaluations based on the standard economic methods tool set.

        Concerning the NYT article: I once worked for an association of female entrepreneurs. At one annual meeting the head of the Bavarian section used the coinage “revenue, doublers and ‘triplers'”, she talked about a specific type of business man. This phrase has never left my mind.

        I do not believe you can artificially inflate the real estate market, where it is generally assumed, at least over here, the buyer has a basic amount of capital to twice or three times it’s size. It just does not doable. Even less in times were income stagnates or has the tendency to diminish for the majority. And this is the pool that theoretically one has to expand into. You have to devise special marketing tools to attract a new type of buyers, you have to whisper into their ear’s that real estate prices will continue to rise right up into the sky. As we see in RTL, the opposite happened.

        We had some minor real estate bubbles over here in Europe, beyond the usual fluctuations, before the real huge American one.

        I simply do not buy the suggestion that suddenly, just in time, a huge amount of Americans decided to trick their banks.

      • leander22 says:

        Wonderful definition of socialism by Malisha. Seems I am a liberal, except for the more sporty alternative in summer or special events. So it’s not only typically to the point, it also works. 😉 Although, in my earliest studies of the American psyche it felt that many do not make a big difference between liberals and lefties. Also don’t realize that someone on the left may well be pretty conservative in some topics.

        Thanks Frederick, interesting aspect, thanks unitron:

        The US housing crisis is actually an interesting angle in our context. No data concerning 32771 RTL, it seems

        The average drop in home values seems to be about 18-25%, in RTL it looks more like 66%. Now it would be interesting to take a more detailed look at the development in our “special retreat”. Could it be, to return to Puck’s expertise sociology, that tricked people look for scapegoats? And what is GZ’s special interest in the larger scenario.

        I just tweeted a response to junior, he seems to have gained a few new followers by his latest mud. Another sociological aspect it feels at least to this non-expert. 😉

      • leander22 says:

        Hmm, link does not work, you have to click on the link to the interactive map.

      • leander22 says:

        The larger context:

        32763 in Orange City
        Homes Underwater
        22% of them delinquent
        Zillow Home Value Index
        -60% from peak

  29. colin black says:

    mountainmanpat says:

    March 23, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    And nearly half the world learned to speak english as they were OCCUPIED / CONQUERED / SUBJUGATED by the British Empire…..

    Also the British were the LARGEST drug cartel on the planet…..

    Ever heard of the Opium Wars

    Well we did have a Queen Victoria whom was a drug addict.

    Addicted to opim in form of tinture also cannibas in tincture form.
    The opium was in the laudinnum tincture wich the upper classes consumed in copius omounts.

    Coffee an Tea shops also where freely dispenceing opiates an cocaine to there patrons.
    Or eleivateing them whatever .

    In deed the British introduced opium to China to barter for tea.
    All the while there main ambition was to obtain an cultivate there own tree plantations.
    However the Chinease gaurded there secrets well an for over a century britian was unable to get a hold of a viable cutting or plant.
    When they obtain a plant suitable to cultivate they intend to use Indias vast land an labour reserves to farm it an become the no one tea producers.

    Mean while those Whillie Chinease had exactly the same plan for them selfs.
    To obtain opium poppies an start there own manufacture of opium.

    Eventually both sucseeded an today China an its Asian borders an countrys within the middle an far east cultivates 70 percent of the worlds opium.

    India also is now perhaps the worlds largest producer of tea.
    Now a days middle an higher classes tend to think of drugs as a scourge brought out by the poor.

    When nothing could be further from the truth.Vices have always started with the elite.
    Be it a a sweet tooth for sugar likeing a sniffter or two vices start from the top an work there way down.

    • Great response Colin…

      Another thing to consider……Americans and slavery.

      Slavery was introduced to this country while it was still a colony of the crown…..and how many European countries were involved in the slave trade?………..You mention sugar……One of the first uses of slaves being brought to the america’s……To work the sugar cane plantations.

      • colin black says:

        Not American though British or German Irish or Scots but all liveing in a British Colany under a English King George i i r c.
        America had no History as a country just yet as it hadnt coaleced into wanting Independance.

        Slavery has been used by every race either on its own people.
        Or conquered foes.
        The Zulus wich went from one small tribe a few grass huts an a small heard of cattle.
        Under the tutilage of there new young cheif.

        Whom was as great a commander an warrier as the likes of Alexander Ceacer Napolean Ghengis Khan.
        He quickly conqured neighbouring villages an with in a decade the Zulu Nation was the strongest biggest army in southern Africa.
        An his terrortrys were vast an the Zulus used slaves as indeed was the norm .

        When the british first arrived with the Dutch in southenr Africa an began to exploit the slave trade they dealt almost exclusively with the Zulus whom sold them slaves.

        An the reason they wanted African Slaves is there own kind British people .
        Were given transportation to the colanys rather than hanging or prison.
        Theft of a loaf of bread could see a soul condemed an shipped out to the West Indies to work on a suger plantation.

        An they couldnt take the heat or humidity an dropped like flies.
        So strong sturdy Africans were considered better for slavery than weak Scots English Irish.
        Slavery goes on today either through sexuall exploitation its all economic deprevation that can force children to work in sweat shops.
        Makeing trainers or Women in Asia paid a pittance by huge co like.
        B Gates an his cronies to make ipods or ipads an other electronic tat.

  30. Bill Taylor says:

    LOL, climate change is the 100% natural state of this planet, there has been no period of stable climate again its natural state is constant change, there are countless factors at play in the environment and many factors we havent even discovered yet.

    in science when you have countless factors in the equation and some of them are UNknown, the output of that equations is not reliable in any way…..to single out human released co2 and call it the driver of climate is utter LUNACY, we humans do not control the weather and the climate is simply the average weather over the previous 30 years for any given area.

    the WEATHER controls the climate NOT the other way around.

    the weather constantly changes and the climate follows along….

    in baseball terms the next at bat is NOT determined by the lifetime “average” but simply by what happens at that time for that one at bat.

    as to oxygen i agree our bodies do need more oxygen, that is why my wife and I take a supplement and have been for about 12 years now, i am 61 she is a bit younger but neither of us take any manmade medications at this time, while most all of our peers are on multiple meds as many as 15 a day for some of them.

    our bodies need the nutrients that grow in nature all around us a well balanced mix of them including some poisons and heavy metals, we also need to exercise daily, and get our proper rest
    to function at maximum efficiency.

    • Puck says:

      Oh dear, climate change denial. The weather does not control the climate. It’s the other way around. If you’re so dedicated to science, then perhaps you should read the following:



    • colin black says:

      Them there holes in the ozone layer that are growing expotentialy with our increased use of carbon fuels are a mighty big nonentity .

      Considering it took 4 billion years to form that thin layer of gas.
      Wich protects us from many of the suns spectrums wich are harmfull to cellular structures ie includes us.

      Whilst the electro magnetic feild genetated by the dynamo effect of the rotating ball of iron liuquid but also under such immence pressure it acts as a solid.
      This delects most of the harmfull radiation the sun is constantly fireing out in all directions.

      With out this life could never have evolved any atmosphere would be blown away before it could condence.
      Most but not all is deflected by our electro magnetic sheild.
      The ozone layer protects us from the othere perentage of harmfull radiation that along with the light an heat we crave an love.
      Harfull rays also get in but the ozone layer protected us from them
      Once it goes its ireplaceable we cant replace it.
      An they are both growing at an alarming rate.
      Thats just one example of mans impact on this planet .
      Not only with pollutants we generate but we our selfs as pollutants.

      The human population has been doubling every fifty years or so.
      Do you know what happens if you take a chess board 68 sqaures I think could be less.

      Anyway put a penny on first sqare an two pennys on next then four then 8 then 16 every sqaure double next 32 next 64 next 128 then 154 308 616 1442 2882 5604 1124 2248 forty four thousand eight hundred an eight I think
      But for my bad math call 44 thousand double is 88 thousand
      160 grand 250 grand half milllion one million 2 mill 4 mill 8 mill 16 mill .
      Remember we started with a penny double up every sqare.
      32 mill 64 mill one billion two billion how many sqares a got left loads
      You do the math.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        ozone is simply an unstable molecule of oxygen, it forms when oxygen gets heated, and indeed in winter over the pole there is far less sunlight and at a very bad angle so the ozone layer THINS over the poles, this is natural and has nothing to do with our co2 release.

        we only occupy around 3 to 5% of the earth surface and dont use much at all of the energy around us(sunlight and the magnetic field you mentioned).

        i do NOT support the concept of some governmental control over population numbers.

        • “we only occupy around 3 to 5% of the earth surface”

          I take it you mean the 3 / 5% that peoples feet are planted on?…..

          OR are you including all the land used for agriculture….harvesting natural resources, deforestation, open pit mines, water reservoirs, for water storage for irrigation, power production, and human use, landfills for our trash, depletion of the oceans fish stocks….I could go on.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        there are huge areas of the earth virtually UNoccupied antarctica, the interior of australia, greenland, northern canada, most of russia the large deserts, the mountain ranges……yes we USE more than we occupy but most of the land is unoocupied.

        • Do you “occupy” every room in your home?

          If you’re not in your bathroom taking a dump then I guess it counts as “unoccupied” by your way of thinking.

          How many environmental clean up sites are “occupied”…Chernobyl?

          The area’s around the Japanese reactors that melted down…..unsafe for human habitation……..no we don’t actually “occupy” it……..we fucked it up so bad we can’t “occupy” it.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        actually people do and have been living at chernobyl and the animals are thriving there…hiroshima and nagasaki are BOTH thriving cities with big populations……the fear of nuclear power is irrational in the extreme.

        not ONE person has died from radiation exposure from fukashima so far.

        there were no death clouds circulating the earth, and certainly none of that happened after WW2 and chernobyl.

        far more people die every year from coal mining and natural gas distribution than have died in nuclear accidents in its entire history….nobody died at 3 mile island.

        nuclear is the safest, cheapest way to produce electricity and the new reactors are even far safer.

        • Then why all the fuss about where to store the nuclear waste these powerplants generate?…………Waste that will remain radioactive and toxic for thousands of years……with more being generated every day.

          How about a nuclear waste dump next to the percentage of ground you “occupy” if it’s so safe?………..

          Come on and tell me that you would have NO PROBLEM living next to a nuclear waste dump……..let me hear it.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        the newest designs of reactors actually can BURN the present waste gaining the energy from it and rendering the remains much safe and inert in a few hundred years…….can YOU name ONE person that has been harmed by the nuclear waste so far?

      • Puck says:

        The cause of ozone depletion is the atmospheric increases in man-made chlorofluorocarbons and halogens.

      • Malisha says:

        Back in the late 1980s there was a woman who used to show up at all the NY feminist conferences and we called her the “Ozone Lady.” She’d get to the mic (they’d have Q&A after every panel or speaker) and read this statement about the damage to the Ozone Layer — about four pages, front and back of the page, small writing, no margins, and she read fast — about how we were damaging the ozone layer. Some of the feminists did not consider it a feminist issue. Now sometimes I think about the Ozone Lady. She was ahead of her time.

        I remember the last two lines of a poem I read back then. It was about “Mother Mary” looking down at people from Heaven,

        Lovinglobe impotent through the torn ozone layer,
        Dearly Beloved,
        I know that you, too, have been treated terribly
        to give me a sign.

        Wow. That memory just flew right into my mind.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Bill, I s’pose you also think that the environment needs no protection.

    • leander22 says:

      Good you tell me, that it is ultimately all the weather. I didn’t know that, then the weather damages the ozone layer too? Now I know.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        However, if you ask him to provide any scientific support for his claims, then like “intelligent design”, you’ll find there’s lots to talk about, lots to discuss as well as lots of material to become confused about. But, ask for a peer reviewed article and poof, suddenly there’s nothing to talk about. That is, unless they can once again, direct your attention back to the bright shiny objects in their box. LOL

        While the world does warm and cool over time, it has never, in the last 800k years, done it over this short a span with such magnitude. We’re talking about a 300% increase in co2 in the atmosphere in less than the 200 years since the industrial revolution started.

        But that’s not the real immediate danger. There are huge reservoirs of methane hydroxide, millions of cubic miles of it, laying frozen on the continental shelves of the world. Scientist do not understand the processes that put it there, nor do they know what might cause it to be released. But, they do know that if it is released, the human race is toast! Only an idiot would want to keep going and take their chances ignoring this potent threat. Methane is 20 times the greenhouse gas that CO2 is. Right now, the melting permafrost in the arctic is releasing millions of tons of methane into the atmosphere. Who knows when the temperature will finally rise enough to release the frozen methane on the continental shelves.
        Of course, conservatives don’t care. At least as long as it’s not their ox getting gored.

      • leander22 says:

        Lonnie, one of the scientists I worked for once, told me that we can grasp a span of about 1000 years. He even explained to me how it was be done, but I forget. I was struggling with challenging the arguments at that time. I worked in a project trying to get them more research funds.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Google for the ice core projects, they drill ice cores that contain atmospheric gases that were trapped 800k years ago. Greenland I think but they must have some in Antarctica too. Also check out the PIG (The Pine Island Glacier).

    • leander22 says:

      Bill, I already wrote a long response to your comment. Pointing out to you, you should consider how much money is spent on shaping your opinion on matters. This is how a German prof defines PR: PR is the shaping of public perception according to a person’s or institution’s advantage. A good place to start in the US is consulting PR watch. Buying your scientist, is only one of the tools in the box, shortly I was a member of the trade.

      It’s really easy to do, the more complex and scientific the issue to the average mind.

      Your responses show you don’t even have a limited grasp of what the ozone shield means for our ecosystem. But there is also a different trend, look at the glaciers around the world, or arctic ice. Now you have to understand that this additional trend of global warming may have consequences for the ozone shield too. These too issues are only the tip of the iceberg for me.

      Let’s look on one of the fields involved, chemistry. There are of course some laws of physics, or human dimensions involved, that matter in the larger context. Should I joke about Cologne having the prospect of being on the Atlantic in a century? Or that I prefer palms to pines anyway? Wouldn’t it make me somehow a socialist if I argue we all live in the same ecosystem?

      Ozone shield:

      The chemistry involved is unusual – occurs only if a polar vortex and polar stratospheric clouds (PSC) are present. During the polar winter, when there is no sunlight, the cold temperatures in the ‘vortex’ lead to the formation of PSC. Heterogeneous reactions convert the reservoir forms of the ozone destroying chemical species, chlorine and bromine, to their more active molecular forms on the surface of the PSC. The main long-lived inorganic carriers of chlorine are hydrochloric acid, HCl (aq) and chlorine nitrate, ClONO2 (aq). When the sunlight returns to the polar region in the Southern Hemisphere spring (Northern Hemisphere autumn), the Cl2 and Br2 are rapidly split into Cl and Br atoms, and initiate the catalytic ozone destruction cycles, which result in rapid ozone loss. Br is 40 times more effective than Cl.

      That may be the reason why some scientist are hesitant if long term improvements as a result of measures based on the Montreal Protocol is enough. And there is an improvement, how could that be if as you argue it’s all only the weather? There is clearly a factor hinting at temperature in the chain reaction. So no, no myths.

  31. colin black says:

    Also look at what we are missing out on with dirgibles ok it might take you 24 ours to cross the atlantic by an air ship.
    But think of the veiws the space to get up an walk around.

    But one accident to the Hindenburgh was shown over an over an the public brainwashed into thinking dirgibles are dangerous.
    Despite today dirgables are used an safe as the gases used to inflate them are non flamable.

    Also they fly low level an people inside need not worry about lighting strikes as the entire dirgible cover includes a fine mesh aliminoum an also the passengers cabin an flight deck are covered in metalic substance.

    So the entire vechicle is like one of those cages?rosenburg cage?
    You the same theory as being in a car struck by lighting your safe.
    Think hoh many plane crashes there have been since the elites desided airoplanes an jets that pollute are the way to go.

    But we are constantly told oh dont worry flying is the safest form of travell.
    Atroucites like 9 11 would not be possable flying a dirgable into a building thats for sure.

    Imagine being able to fly over the poles in a dirrgable an how much cheaper they would be to fly .
    More room bars cinemas but the only downside would be speed.
    But that could be its biggest asset in the days of instant inernet comunication.

    We have no need for speed to phisicaly present ourselfs we can do so on line.
    So sedate driffting would be a pleasure an not a hassle at all.

    Instantly solve runway airport problems.
    Also the noise pollution of jets roring above to land or take of.
    Ditto the actuall pollution but again it would nessesatate a change in thinking.
    A new paradime an the oil excecs an powers that be takeing a hit on there fuel sales.
    An putting others an future generations well fare before ther own an I dont think they are wired that what.

  32. Lonnie Starr says:

    I think it has to do with global warming. The increase in volume of gases like CO2 and Methane are reducing the concentration of oxygen in the atmosphere and making the environment unable to sustain many high executive functioning brains. As Oxygen concentrations fall the public becomes duller and duller until finally all systems become overburdened and under performing so they fail. The population drops precipitously as people on the lower rungs find it impossible to survive on the meager scrapings left to them, so they abandon the fray and go for themselves. While the people on the top are unable to find people to serve, unable to purchase enough product to keep mass production viable, so they fall to the bottom where they get crushed.

    The middle class, as usual, continues to struggle and continues to feign amusement as they watch people from the top fall into the canyons below. Continuing for as long as they can, to pretend they are not “one of those people”.

    This wreckage continues until all the unadaptable people with lunatic ideas are gone, then the rebuilding begins anew. Perhaps even better as people swear not to make the same mistakes again.

    • Malisha says:

      I think the problem is that repetition makes people remember. Irrational people spread their ridiculous ideas far and wide, repeating them over and over, sometimes twice in one sentence! And then they even say, “YEAH!” at the end. So they reinforce the irrationality and it gets irrationaller and irrationaller and irrationaller.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Alice: Curiouser and curiouser.

        “But I don’t want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked.
        “Oh, you can’t help that,” said the Cat: “we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.”
        “How do you know I’m mad?” said Alice.
        “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn’t have come here.”

  33. colin black says:

    Humanity as a entity veiwed disspassionatly by an Alein Race would be considered irrational as a species.
    Individualls within the human race do act rational an conduct themselfs with recpect to others an the planet.

    They way we are pilliging the Earths rescourses poisoning its atmospere an seas is nor rational.
    Nor civil we recently put an as yet unborn futre race of humans in debt due to the miss management of banks ect.

    To bail out the criminals whom caused the economic collapse enabled it to occoir.
    We have levied future income tax on unconceived persons.

    Besides putting them in financeial debt we are leaveing them nothing as there inheritance but a toxic untainable planet.

    The increase in population has boosted the numbers of consumers to fill the elites pockets now.

    For instance we all have heard that some guy has invented an engine that runs on water an the petrolium companys bought up his formula ect.

    But the truth is even more obvious an irrational than that.
    Fact pressure engines technolagy steam engines were invented before petro chemical engines that desire oil.
    Thease engines produce poisonous toxic fumes.

    So at the turning point in the industrial revelution people like H Ford knew of technolagy besides this knew prtrolium engines.
    He knew of pressure engines of steam an air.

    Thats correct ebgines run on air .
    Air compressed powered cars available an manufactured today.
    Technolagy available an known to the movers an shakers at the end of the steam engine area.

    What do we go with?
    Cars than run on compressed air wich is easly available would run clean an leave no toxic pollution.

    Or oil we have to drill for refine in plants an burns unclean an leaves a toxic fooot print.
    Cant sell people air so we all know wich way they decided to go.

    Today there are people that use solar panels for heating there homes an water.
    Also have a windmill to generate electricity wich they use to power an air compressor.

    Two tanks of compressed air can power the vechicle for 400 k.
    An the ony thing its vents is air.

    • cielo62 says:

      Your post reminds me of the movie The Matrix. The Agent calls the human race a form of virus, which spreads and consumes everything and then spreads some more. I couldn’t help but agree with him. If humans were rational we wouldn’t spend time arguing over global climate change. It doesn’t matter if humans caused it or not. The fact is the climate is changing; how should we respond to minimize human suffering? And yet that seems to be last thing on our leaders minds. No, humans as a group are not rational.

  34. Follow…

    Prof I believe it’s one of Newton’s laws…….For every rational person…there has to be an equally opposite irrational person.

    Same goes for stupidity…

    Instant Karma?…Did you read about the woman who poured gas on a snake, set the snake on fire, At which point the flaming snake went into a brush pile nest to her house….set the brush pile on fire….and in turn her home burnt to the ground?


    Instant Karma

    • Trained Observer says:

      Snakes afire! What a tale … Hope no fool tries this on Burmese pythons taking over in the Everglades.

    • Big Willie says:

      “If you dig one ditch you better dig two cause the trap you set just may be for you”

      ― Mahalia Jackson

    • looneydoone says:

      I’m going to offend a great many people BUT much of the world views ‘mericans as the most willfully ignorant people in the *developed world*.
      There’s a wonderful documentary, several years in the making, titled “The Listening Project”. People from around the world speaking to how they view ‘merica/’mericans. I believe it’s still available in LinkTV’s video library.

      • You don’t offend me Looney.

        ‘merica has more people incarcerated than ANY OTHER country in the world…over 700 per 100K population……coming in second is Russia with 500 per 100K

        Look where ‘merica rates in the industrialized countries with health care…..education?

        ‘merica spends more on defense than the top 10 industrialized countries combined…..the worlds police?

        War is good for business, and people grow rich off of it.

        How many years out of the past 100 years has the US not been involved in a war somewhere in the world, including the cold war?

        And now the war on terror?…It will never end….

        While the number of ‘mericans living in poverty increases, and the infrastructure of this country is falling apart.

    • Jun says:

      Its the yin and yang, I believe you are talking about

      There’s opposing forces in everything in life

      electricity = positive and negative

      computers = 0 and 1 for its coding

      morals = good and bad

    • cielo62 says:

      MMP- LOL! Yes that was instant karma! If you plan to kill something, it should be done as painlessly as possible. I feel that she set that snake on fire from hatred. She got the karma for the evil of causing pain, not because she wanted to kill the snake. BTW I like snakes. They are important for ones local ecosystem.

      • Not too many snakes at the 9K ft environment 😐

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @cielo –

        Want to remove a snake? Pour a bucket of crushed ice on them. They will immobilize. Scoop up with shovel, place in garbage pail (ice and all) and head out to the fields with it. Dump bucket and come home. Snake eventually warms up and thinks, “What the hell was that all about?” (PS: I like snakes, too, but not rattlers at the house. The young ones are out now.)

        • Xena says:


          Want to remove a snake? Pour a bucket of crushed ice on them. They will immobilize. Scoop up with shovel, place in garbage pail (ice and all) and head out to the fields with it.

          Nah. I’m not taking time to go into the house and get ice giving the slithering critter time to slither away. Garden hoe works just find. We have garner snakes here that are live bearers — ugly little cusses. I’ve only seen 2 thus far — one before I called the wildlife guy to spray the perimeter to keep them out, and a baby that was hiding under a bag of mulch. He got chopped up with the garden hoe and while his tail was still wiggling trying to find out what happened to its head, all of his body pieces were in my portable fire pit.

        • cielo62 says:

          Pirhanamom- I once caught a live snake in a supermarket just before work. I called the manager, who turned out to be a brainless airhead. So I asked for a box. A worker there, not too bright, got a fruit box, is one that holes in it. I again asked for an enclosed box. The snake was cold so he moved slowly. I trapped him in the box, slid a paper under it and flipped it. Put a lid on and told the guy to dump the snake in the small bayou behind the store. It was simple, nobody got hurt or killed. Common sense is a dying art. SMH sadly.

          Sent from my iPod

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @ Cielo –

            That’s exactly the way to catch – I catch small snakes and lizards with a glass dome, slide a thin cardboard underneath, flip over and transport out.

            But I have a big wrought iron antique French baker’s rack by my front door, which is a covered area (and I have it attached to the wall by cable ties so nobody tries carting off the 200 lb. monster. Floor iunderneath is tile. Cool. Rattlers LOVE this on super-hot days over 100 degrees Farenheit.

            They tell you so by that dry rattle as you head to the front door. They’re not going anywhere because that’s where they want to be, and think nobody can get them. Takes me 15 or 20 minutes to crush a bucket of ice and get back there for the ice-cold shower, through the iron grates.

            Years ago I used aerosol freon but that’s illegal now, with global warming.

            I only go through all that for rattlers. The rest of the local snakes are a harmless part of the local ecology. Rattlers and other snakes ikely catch a lot more mice than Beauregard does – and mice love to nest in my car motor.
            So it’s detente between me and snakes. Live and let feast.

          • cielo62 says:

            Piranha mom- LOL! I’d probably wet myself if I ever had a rattler in my house! Nope, just harmless grass snakes around here. GRATEFULLY!

            Sent from my iPod

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @ Cielo,

            The baker’s rack is OUTside the front door. It’s where I unload my packages and FedEx delivers.

            I can assure you, when it comes to INside, Beauregard don’t allow no rattlers ’round here!

          • cielo62 says:

            PirhanaMom- brave, brave , brave Sir Beauregard!

            Sent from my iPod

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Oh,oh, Xena . . . snake karma.

      • towerflower says:

        Only had to kill one snake in my life, normally I just catch them. It was a coral snake and I couldn’t remember that rhyme. It was on my back porch and I put on some boots, got a flat headed shovel and called work hoping someone would know the rhyme. Sadly it was a coral snake and I couldn’t take the chance with my little one and a coral snake close by. I thought I could chop off the head with the shovel and that didn’t work so now I have one very pissed off snake pinned to the ground while I was calling for the babysitter to bring me a bat. Finished him off with that. If it had been a king snake I would have picked it up and thrown it over the fence.

  35. Bill Taylor says:

    how about making a contribution to the discussion as opposed to a snarky comment?

  36. Trained Observer says:

    I’ve always held the Christian Science Monitor in high regard for its nationwide editorial coverage. Yet it, too, seems to have fallen prey to sloppy, silly Fogen case conclusions, hitting the gong on the absurdity meter.

    Note the follow paragraph from its March 5, 2013 edition.

    “Also on Tuesday, a key witness for the prosecution was caught in a second apparent lie amid probing by the defense. A woman who says she was on the phone with Trayvon as Zimmerman pursued him originally gave her age as 16, though she was really 18. And she also said she missed Trayvon’s funeral because of a hospital stay, which wasn’t true.”

    So now we’ve morphed from going to “the hospital or something” to an actual “hospital stay” that to me implies actually checking in for observation or treatment. And, of course, there’s the old stupidity of confusing the funeral with the wake.

    P.S.: Don’t get me started on use of the word “bewildered” in this story as applied to Team BDLR, allegedly being “bewildered” by MOM apparently taking a pass on SYG.

  37. onlyiamunitron says:

    Well, this should be entertaining, in a watching a multi-car pileup sort of way.


  38. Bill Taylor says:

    i majored in psychology and minored in sociology…….where am i wrong please? i note you claimed i am wrong but gave no example.

    socialism is about the collective OVER the individual and that is FAILED policy shown all over the globe.

    socialism says society owns YOU and your work output, and indeed that is the cruelest form of tyranny taking away the very fruits of ones labor and giving them to another person that didnt earn them!

    as to denying science, that is hilarious since i indeed employ the scientific method daily and always have.

    the word liberal means a person that favors personal LIBERTY, and indeed those claiming to be liberal are anything but liberal today, desiring total control over peoples lives is the OPPOSITE of liberty.

    i do TY for the example of someone claiming they have credentials and that makes my points wrong somehow? but never actually addressing the points i made.

    NOW try to discuss the issue please.

    • elcymoo says:

      Bill Taylor says:
      March 23, 2013 at 12:26 pm
      i majored in psychology and minored in sociology…….where am i wrong please? i note you claimed i am wrong but gave no example.

      socialism is about the collective OVER the individual and that is FAILED policy shown all over the globe.

      socialism says society owns YOU and your work output, and indeed that is the cruelest form of tyranny taking away the very fruits of ones labor and giving them to another person that didnt earn them!

      as to denying science, that is hilarious since i indeed employ the scientific method daily and always have.

      the word liberal means a person that favors personal LIBERTY, and indeed those claiming to be liberal are anything but liberal today, desiring total control over peoples lives is the OPPOSITE of liberty.

      i do TY for the example of someone claiming they have credentials and that makes my points wrong somehow? but never actually addressing the points i made.

      NOW try to discuss the issue please.

      I majored in psychology and minored in sociology, too, but I also have studied American history enough to realize that we’ve always had a mixed economy of socialistic and capitalistic policies. Our Founding Fathers even incorporated it into their documents, which called for providing for a COMMON defense and promoting the GENERAL welfare. ‘Redistribution of wealth’ in the form of levies and taxes has also been part of our nation since the get-go.

      I don’t think you understand the principles of liberalism or modern liberals very well. We don’t seek ‘total control over people’s lives’, and never have. We do believe that government policies can and should be used for the collective benefit of our citizens and our nation, and not just to support corporate welfare and robber barons.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        please point out the exact redistribution of wealth you seem to have found at this nations beginning?

        where individuals taxed on their income?

        didnt many of the founders point out they could NOT find any words in the constitution allowing the government to take from one citizen and give to another?

        as to the “general welfare” being somehow a socialist concept, and the common defense again being socialist?

        the people decided as a group that we need the LIMITED government to do some things we cant do by ourselves, that in no way is socialism.

    • Puck says:

      No, your points were wrong not because of my three degrees in sociology (but it’s good you did a minor in it; I think it’s a very useful discipline in many areas of life and work), but because they directly echo right-wing talking points of what socialism and liberalism are without any reference to actual scholarly work in either. Even an introductory textbook would provide enough information for one to make an informed claim as to what constitutes these ideologies.

      Socialism in practice (and there are several forms of socialism, including democratic socialism) has succeeded all over the world, especially in Scandinavia. Canada is socialist, by the way. Did you know that? I don’t see any tyranny around me. I see thriving capitalism existing alongside government social and economic programs, the social reflecting our values of caring for each other in a just society, and the economic as goverment aiding the private sector (mainly through tax incentives) as only government can. We escaped the 2008 economic crisis because of the very sensible regulations we have on our banking system. And these regulations have never prevented the banks from reporting record profits. It has enabled business to continue thriving and expand. Capitalism benefited from banking regulations. That is not irrational.

      What you characterize as rewarding being lazy or giving the “very fruits of ones [sic] labor” to those who “didnt [sic] earn them” is a massively distorted misinterpretation (and as such, false) of liberalism and socialism’s principles of social justice.

      Liberalism does not seek total control over people’s lives. Again, that you use the term “control over people” indicates that your assessment of liberalism seems to come from the conservative political media entertainment complex. Perhaps the notion of “big government” mean “total control” to you. Republican abortion legislation at the state levels, such as mandating transvaginal ultrasounds *without the patient’s consent* seems more like big government intruding (literally) into women’s lives (in de facto state-sponsored rape) in order to control and regulate their individual liberties.

      I would really rather not go further with this. Clearly, we are both on Trayvon’s side, and we both know that the science, if nothing else, will nail Zimmerman. You and I stand in solidarity for justice. This is not a political blog and I don’t think the Professor wants it to become one. Let’s get back to Trayvon.

      • Puck says:

        (Although the Professor did open the door to political discussion and debate by bringing the right-wing into his post…)

      • Bill Taylor says:

        TY i accept the offer to agree to disagree, but must note that minus the USA both canada and the scandanavian countries would be speaking german now, and indeed i dont bother with the punctuation marks when typing because i KNOW the message was understood whether i typed didnt or didn’t, i also dont use caps properly.

        • And if it weren’t for the British, Spanish, Dutch and others……. the Native Americans would still be speaking in their native tongues…..in land that had been theirs for eons.

        • And nearly half the world learned to speak english as they were OCCUPIED / CONQUERED / SUBJUGATED by the British Empire…..

          Also the British were the LARGEST drug cartel on the planet…..

          Ever heard of the Opium Wars?

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        @bill taylor
        Wtf are you talking about?
        ” but must note that minus the USA both canada and the scandanavian countries would be speaking german now”???

        Skipped geography and history?

      • Puck says:


        I think he means the entire Western world owes the U.S. everything for all time because of World War II.

      • amsterdam1234 says:


        That is one of the American myths. I will never diminish any individual’s sacrifice during ww2, but America was not the only and not the major player involved in the liberation of Europe. I am Dutch, and my country pays hommage every year to the Canadians and the first free Polish Army, that liberated the Netherlands.

        More Canadians died as a percentage of the population, than Americans in liberating Europe.
        The Soviets lost between 9 and 11 million in millitary personal. The US lost about 420 thousand in both the European and Pacific theater.

        As for Scandinavia, the largest scandinavian country, Sweden, remained neutral during the 2nd ww.

        • Amsterdam……..I myself am a “baby boomer” having been born not long after the war.

          My Father and my Uncles were all veterans…..

          The America that was 70 / 60 years ago IS NOT the America of today…nor the America I grew up in, which is sad.

          I grew up in an America where we left our doors open….and a “latch sting” hanging for the screen door……back then……..who needed an ALARM SYSTEM?

          Most all of the Mom’s were stay at home Mom’s

          Saturdays….8 years old…leave home with the instructions of “Be home before the street lights come on”

          Some things have improved, peoples rights and such. Yet today many of us are having rights taken from us daily as a whole.

          All the great empires of history have fallen…most due to greed and selfishness…& lack of respect for others….America is soon to follow I sadly believe.

          • Xena says:


            I grew up in an America where we left our doors open….and a “latch sting” hanging for the screen door……back then……..who needed an ALARM SYSTEM?

            That was a time where people went to the local home furnishing store and bought a television, radio, electric roaster, etc. “on time” making payments directly to the store. Everyone was approved for store credit and everyone, if they wanted, had the same things in their home.

            Drug addicts were mainly working musicians and not our next door neighbors.

          • Credit at the market too…..no cards or forms…..just kept on a note pad….When a man’s word was his bond & honor.

            Milk & bread delivery…left outside your front door…

            No Darlin’……not the world we grew up in anymore……and I wonder what kind of world my grandchildren will inherit?

            You know I went to court yesterday in defense of someone trying to cheat my mate….long story & too many lies……Bottom line? we won.

            We had contracted them to sell some of my mates collectables on consignment…..Armani figurines, Ron Lee clowns, Sawrvoski crystal, Red Skelton paintings….Husband and wife operation….first 2 times they came out to look at the stuff they brought her mother with them…..nice touch huh?……….only to find them for the lying scumbag cheats they actually are.

          • Xena says:

            @MMPat. Congratulations on prevailing in court.

            There are folks who think that lying by throwing everything against the wall hoping something will stick, will muddy the facts and frustrate proceedings. Judges have the responsibility to determine the facts and apply the facts to the law. That is why litigants should not be distracted or go on the defense against personal attacks.

            I see that O’Mara via the treeslum is taking the “throw everything against the wall in personal attacks” against Attorney Crump and Witness 8. The court is not going to be interested in GZ’s conspiracy theories that have no bearing on the 2nd degree murder charge nor his claim of self-defense. I am sure that Judge Nelson will also instruct the jury in that manner. .

          • Shoulda heard the judge tear into him about his contracts & record keeping…..Meanwhile his wife is crying “Every time we go up there, there’s a chain across the driveway”…….An outright lie….Yes there is a cable to stretch across the bottom of the driveway….only time it’s up is when we’ll be gone for a day or more.

            Either way….is it wrong to have a gate to your property? Tears no less….WTF?

          • Xena says:

            @MMPat. And of course, she had no proof via text messages or emails of contacting you in advance and having an appointment at a time and date certain to appear and find she could not enter your driveway, right? LOL!!!

          • Roger that…..then she says she had voice mailed my mate…..At which point I pull a letter from my file from Century Link that voice mail is not available in our area, and I guarantee you she WAS NOT expecting that 🙂

            BTW….I’m an avid reader of Sun Tzu……

            That’s the problem with lying…….just as fogen is finding out…..

            Everyone lies….and anyone who says they don’t is a liar…

            It depends on the reason the lie is being told……You told your kids about Santa?….Was that the truth?

            A fatally wounded soldier on the battlefield with the Chaplin asks
            “Am I going to die?”…..Do you really think the Chaplin is going to tell the truth…..”Well as tore up as you are I don’t see much chance of making it”

            It’s the lies that are self serving for whatever reason that are wrong.

          • Xena says:

            @MMPat. >blockquote> It’s the lies that are self serving for whatever reason that are wrong.

            For several months, I had a good debate with a minister over lying and bearing false witness. He finally came over to my side of thinking. Rahab operated a house of prostitution and she hid Hebrew spies on the roof of her house. When the soldiers came to her house looking for them, she told them that she saw the spies going out the city gate. She made a deal with the Hebrew spies to save her family.

            When we get to the New Testament in the Book of Hebrews, we read that God counts Rahab among the righteous.

            Rahab lied, but she did not bear false witness because she did not falsely accuse anyone.

            GZ bears false witness. His supporters bear false witness. All that negative energy has returned to him and continues to return.

          • cielo62 says:

            MMP- not tears but histrionics for pity. I’m glad you won. I hate thieves. And with eBay they are easy to catch; everything is listed. High fives for you and your mate!

            Sent from my iPod

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I like America, I lived there for 7 years. I had to make a decision at one point to stay and become a citizen or go back home.
        There is no such thing as a perfect person or nation.
        Americans have a tendency to self-mythologize. It doesn’t mean I like them less, just that I don’t think they are super-human.

        I think the weight of history has given us “old Europeans ” a bit more humiliy. As a dutch citizen, I feel it is my obligation, to stand up for the sacrifices made by the Canadians for my country.

        • Amsterdam…

          I agree with your comment. I am a philatelist (stamp collector / dealer )….I deal with people the world over…..faiths, cultures, politics, races…..good and bad every where….The sad part is that some are led to believe false prophets, hitler and such…

          Remember Jonestown? Heavens gate? These may have been good people, yet misled……Seems I remember someone named bush and WMD’s also.

          Being a Dutchman, I have a question to ask you. I had a debate with someone on gun control….I said that one of the first things hitler did after overrunning a country was to require the surrender of all private weapons….I’ve even seen posters that were posted in your country requiring this.

          Yet I’m told by this other person that it’s all BS from the NRA that the government wants to remove privately owed firearms.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I don’t know about that. If I’d have to give you a serious answer, I would need to do some research.
        Let me give you an answer just from my my perspective for now.

        Fire arms are not part of our culture. I really don’t know what to say about them. It never crossed my mind to acquire one, and I think it is a safe bet that most Dutch people don’t. People hunt here. As a city dweller, I never thought about that either. But, if the season is right, deer is on the menu.

        I follow American news. My brother, who is not focussed on American news, was aware of the Trayvon Martin case. He was shocked.
        Guns in our society are used by criminals. I don’t think civilians are allowed to carry guns. We are living in à civilized society. We don’t stomp around and shoot people. GZ would’ve been in jail here. It is just very difficult to translate this case to a European case. Civilians don’t run after people armed with a gun. I don’t even think police behaves that way.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        “your assessment of liberalism seems to come from the conservative political media entertainment complex.”

        Note that much of the current division in the country has been fostered since the implementation of above mentioned media entertainment complex. Conservatives have always been with us, but many seemed to have a better grasp of history and sociology than they do now.

    • Jun says:

      I believe you are incorrect

      Socialism is not what you are writing

      Socialism is based on an ideal of sharing and individualism and individual rights

      For example, social healthcare in Canada

      Everyone is taken care of and everyone puts in so that everyone can be healthy

      Socialism takes the ideas of everyone and puts it to vote

      It does not take over everyone’s lives

      • Plantain Republic says:

        @ Jun Everyone does NOT put in, and everyone may EVENTUALY recieve healthcare, but NOT neccessarily what they need and when they need it. The queue’s can be several months to several years long, and though it is rarey discussed openly in Canada, many, many, many people often die after very long, terrifying, painful, and agonizing waits on numerous healthcare wait lists. An average wait for an MRI is currently 5 to 6 months in Ontario right now. And it can be much worse in more rural areas, and sick people often must travel several kilos/hours and incur lodging and related costs in order to receive certain medical treatments. Also, Canadians often cross the border for minor and major healthcare treatments, often paid for by their government, and equally as often out of their own pockets, above and beyond the healthcare taxes they pay. Often the treatments are MRI’s, CT scan, Xrays, etc, which they hope will expidite their care back home. It could potentially cut off several months of waiting in the queue.

        A rare and recent example of this sad and frightening phenomenon is the case of renowned Canadian surgeon Ciaran McNamee from Calgary, who (did the unthinkable….by critisizing the Canadian healthcare system) openly complained that his patients were dying on wait lists, due to inadequate funding, facilities, equipment, etc. And I won’t even go into the on-going fight for private healthcare in Quebec, largely spearheaded by Dr. Jacques Chaoulli.

        Under NO circumstances am I saying that the Canadian healthcare system or any socialized system is bad, and neither is the U.S. system. Not by a long shot. I’ve lived in Canada, the UK, and the U.S., and have first hand experience with healthcare in all three nations. And I won’t say which I prefer, though the three merged might just be what the doctor ordered.

    • Malisha says:

      Regardless of your degrees, there are SURE to be professionals with the same credentials you hold who will disagree with you 100% on any issue you take a position on; I have NO DEGREES and I still absolutely state this with authority.

      So it’s not your field of study that determines what your opinion is in this, or any other, regard.

      I even know people with PhD’s from the same institution of higher education who are diametrically opposed to each other on fundamental issues.

      The only way to figure out who is right, therefore, is this way:

      ASK MALISHA; she’ll tell you! :mrgreen:

      • Puck says:

        @Malisha: Are you talking to me? Because while your point is valid in terms of scholarly debate, an essential sociological concept such as socialism isn’t a matter one takes a position on, it’s a matter of fact. We know what it is and what it isn’t. The debates come in the context of larger matters such as how socialism has been or should be implemented, or if it should be at all, critical analysis of theorists’ work on socialism, using existing theory to develop new theory, and so on.

      • Malisha says:

        Puck, plenty of people with no education at all will tell you their opinions about things and follow it up with the advice that what they are saying is FACT. The facts about socialism are no less malleable than the facts about any other ism.

    • boyd says:

      Move to Labrador, NewFoundland, Greenland, Yukon somewhere where they are few people and you can live all by yourself. Man has learned that you survive best as a group helping each other. You do not survive on the “every man for himself” model.
      If you know of a country that does things your way MOVE THERE

  39. Puck says:

    @Bill Taylor

    You don’t seem to understand liberalism or socialism, and I tell you this as a credentialed sociologist.

    The “both sides do it” canard of false equivalency is principally used by the one side that does do it in order to deflect blame from themselves.

    The fact that you claim socialism rewards being lazy simply and ironically validates what the Professor is talking about.

    Perhaps you should read “The Republican Brain: The science of why they deny science – and reality” by Chris Mooney.

    By the way, my specialty is the sociology of U.S. politics (mainly right-wing), so I do know what I’m talking about after years and years of research and writing on the topic.

    • @Puck

      The “both sides do it” canard of false equivalency is principally used by the one side that does do it in order to deflect blame from themselves.

      TELL IT!

    • leander22 says:

      the basic tenet of socialism is irrational in the extreme in that it rewards being lazy and punishes hard work.

      Maybe we should allow America/ns to conclusively define socialism. What is interesting about this Wikipedia article on Socialism is that it starts out with a definition and then continues: There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them.

      I was never a fan of planned economies or a fan of attempts at socialicism like our own Eastern German petit bourgeois attempts at it. A complete control system enforced by slogans everywhere. In East Berlin you could only enter a book shop, if there was a empty basket for your purchases outside. If they were all used, you had to wait till one was returned. Additionally GDR published books were largely unavailable to its own citizen, while you could get every publication in the West. The shops offered the same type of selections everywhere. Absolutely crazy. Forex in mind.

      That said, I recently found out that my contact lenses are not produced since the end of 2011. The firm has shifted to daily or monthly lenses. Once all producers of the lens type I need join this trend, my freedom of market choices is gone. I have to surrender or go back to glasses. And I have really bad eyes, and I am wearing lenses for over 40 years now. So ultimately the free market has a tendency to exert its own type of control. Easy to see that they prefer to force me to buy lenses more often, so far I could wear them several years.

      I notice comparable trends in the field of economics. So the free market is not really as free as I would like it to be.

  40. Bill Taylor says:

    PLEASE……claiming irrationality is a right wing thing is rather silly….MANY of the tenets of liberalism are 100% irrational.

    the basic tenet of socialism is irrational in the extreme in that it rewards being lazy and punishes hard work.

    THAT whole attitude of taking “sides” is shown clearly in this very case…..seems many formed their opinions on this case NOT by looking at the facts, but rather by looking at “who” is supporting which side.

    examples = if jackson or sharpton get involved that means the far right MUST oppose them……….and IF gun owners take fogens sides then the liberals MUST support Martin.

    i am VERY conservative but i look at each issue by itself and form opinions based on the FACTS.

    • Mirre says:

      Why don’t you look up the definition for socialism, instead of repeating an emotional right wing talking point that is not based on facts.
      Socialism is the economic system where the control and means of production are owned by the people. It may not be your preferred economic system, but lazyness is not part of the definition.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        Comment showed up under my old username.

      • One could consider our early ancestors. Were hunter / gatherer societies not socialist?

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        There wasn’t an economy at that time, so no economic system either. I think both systems in their pure form, are antithetical to a democracy. Pure capitalisme leads to an olichargy.

        Most modern democracies, have a combination of both systems.
        Public schools are socialist, so are the police, firefighters, libraries, national parks and US mail. Go figure, those damned socialist founding fathers, sneaking the US mail into the constitution.

        For Europeans, Canadians and most of the developed world, having access to healthcare is as natural as having the firefighters show up to stop your house from burning down. So our economic system has more socialist aspects than the US system, but the US is not a purely capitalistic system.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yes, and that is because as a general rule, too much of anything usually proves to be no good.

          A nation needs a certain amount of national unity if it is to have a happy, healthy and therefore productive society. But, since everyone cannot be tops in every category, a society that doesn’t spread a degree of the benefits of success around a bit, is going to divide along various lines. Haves from the have-nots, from the technocrats, from the artists from the merchants, on and on. Until the only way to make them work together is at gun point, which of course, is not sustainable because it gets nobodies best work.

          So that social welfare programs are the cost of keeping a society happy, healthy and unified enough to be beneficially productive.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Thank you.

    • PiranhaMom says:


      I am deeply offended by your comment “that minus the USA both canada and the scandanavian countries would be speaking german now”???”

      Are you aware that Great Britain and the Commonwealth, including Canads, fought Fascism in 1939 not because their
      own territories were invaded, but the prevent Fascism from consuming the world?

      Are you aware that when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor in our US Territory of Hawaii that Canada declared war on Japan the day before we did?

      Are you aware that there is no way the Germans could route their tanks over the North Pole to invade Canada because no lubricants existed to keep them running in the extreme cold?

      Surely you are aware of Omaha and Utah Beach, where our American forces landed in the invasion of Normandy – but do you know that the D-Day landings on June 6, 1944 encompassed FIVE beaches – with invading forces on the other three (Juno, Sword and Gold) manned by British, Canadian and Australian forces?

      Please remember we were all allies against a common evil.

      Do not belittle our friends and neighbors whose forces fought and died alongside ours.

      Show a little respect, please …

      A little respect, please …

      • cielo62 says:

        PirhanaMom- well said. WWII consumed a great many people who fought against fascism. All should be honored.

        Sent from my iPod

        • PiranhaMom says:


          If I were not so hot-headed at the moment, I should have inserted another fact, because what I wrote may have skewed my comment. Canada declared war on Japan within the day after Pearl Harbor – and a day before the US did, despite the fact that the bombs were dropped on US territory.

          The reason for that is that Canada’s then long-term Prime Minister, Mackenzie King, did not have to go to Parliament and get a vote on it. Roosevelt had to get Congressional approval.
          That’s how we did things then (only Congress can declare war) – ignored now by future administrations.

          The point is that Great Britain and the Commonwealth declared war on Germany when it invaded Czechoslovakia – and it could have ignored that treaty. But they knew what Hitler’s “master race” policy would lead to.

          When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor 27 months later, both the Brits and Commonwealth nations understood Tojo’s intent as well.

          My point is that these countries knew what Fascism would lead to, and the U.S. didn’t have to do ANY negotiation to get them on our side when we were attacked.

          WW II just appens to be a special study area for me. It was truly “The Grand Alliance,” as Churchill’s book was titled.

    • boyd says:

      PLEASE. irrationality is an attempt to pass laws to perform Vaginal probes on women wanting an abortion.

      irrationality is claiming a country has “WMD” without proof and invadng that country, then forgetting the reason why you invaded 2 years later.

      irrationality is claiming yoursefl to be superior then nearly wiping out Jews, Gypsies and other groups you claim are not up to your standards. in this case those identified by you as being lazy are your Jews and Gypsies.

    • You are showing that you are irrational,Liberalism and Socialism
      are Two different political doctrines,in the same token our nation
      is one of the most liberal and communist ONE.

      This case is about a grown up man that armed with a gun murdered a an unarmed teenager claiming irrational “self defense” and never ever took seriously to defend himself
      in an immunity hearing.

  41. groans says:

    Irrationality does seem to be mostly a right-wing phenomenon. It’s like truth and honesty and reason don’t matter any more. All that matters is that they get what they want and prevent others from getting what they want.

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