Defense renews request to depose attorney Benjamin Crump

Monday, March 18, 2013

Greetings to everyone.

Due to circumstances beyond my control, I have not posted any articles since last Monday. The short story is both of our computers crashed. The electrical plug-in for my Toshiba laptop broke transforming the computer into the most expensive paperweight that I have ever owned. I bought it last November and was delighted with it until this happened. I have since discovered that this problem was caused by a mechanical design flaw common to all Toshiba laptops. The plug-in connects to a little box just inside the chassis. The box is soddered to the motherboard and cannot withstand any stress, such as plugging the electrical cord into the computer on a daily basis. Even an insubstantial bump to the plug-in can jar the little box loose. Customers have to mail their computers to Toshiba for repair. The minimum turn-around time is 3 weeks and Toshiba lately has been blaming their customers for causing the damage, refusing to fix them for free, and holding the computers hostage until they receive payment.

Needless to say, I have been exploring other options.

I have decided to fix it myself by gluing the box into the correct position with expoxy.

Imagine me screaming the most foul curses of which I am capable awakening monster cyber demons from their slumber and you will have a pretty good idea of what I have been doing for the past week.

And, of course, Crane’s computer just had to go on the blink to show solidarity with her sister. Well, we have solved that problem. I am posting this article with her computer and plan to resume daily postings.

I still have to review the comments you all have posted. Hope no wars have erupted.

Now, back to business.

Mark O’Mara filed a motion on Friday asking Judge Nelson to reconsider her order denying the defense motion depose Benjamin Crump. He basically accuses Crump of lying in his affidavit about the circumstances of his telephonic interview of Dee Dee.

He also states that John Guy, the prosecutor assisting BDLR, informed him that there are no medical records confirming Dee Dee’s claim that she in the hospital unable to attend Trayvon’s funeral. He comes very close to accusing Dee Dee of perjury without specifying when she committed the offense or explaining why he believes that what she may have stated is relevant or material to the case.

I doubt that expects to win this motion. I think he is attempting to create a credibility issue where none exists regarding a relatively unimportant witness’s credibility on a collateral matter.

I do not believe Judge Nelson will change her mind and authorize Crump’s deposition, but I would not be surprised if she does. Judges generally tend to be concerned about maintaining an appearance of fairness, so she might reverse herself. I am certain that she wants to avoid Judge Lester’s fate. Therefore, regardless of her decision, I expect she will will attempt to make her decision bullet-proof.

The unstated assumption or premise of the defense motion appears to be a suspicion that Crump told Dee Dee what to say and he did that to create a murder case against the innocent defendant hoping that the jury would convict him thereby setting up the civil suit for wrongful death.

To be taken seriously, I think he is going to need evidence to support his suspicion and a credible argument that the information he seeks is material and relevant.

I do not believe he can get there from here.

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653 Responses to Defense renews request to depose attorney Benjamin Crump

  1. Malisha says:

    I think it’s just good common sense to require Fogen to show up in court; he DID ask for his ankle bracelet to be removed; the court may really have some questions about whether he’s still “on board with all this justice stuff” or if maybe he has chosen to be a “decent American” somewhere else altogether — like Peru.

  2. towerflower says:

    Click to access Notice%20for%20April%202%202013%20Docket%20Sounding.pdf

    This is an order to appear, in person, for GZ at the next hearing on April 2 or face forfeiture of his bond. The nuts are going crazy over this. Some are playing their party for what they see as an announcement of the State dropping all charges against GZ….after all why would they make him appear. Especially since this comes on the heels of the Martin family and Wit. 8 being deposed…..exposing all their lies of course. It really is fun reading over there.

    I don’t find it at all unusual. The Judge in the Casey Anthony case ordered her to attend all her hearings also after she missed a few.

    • Xena says:


      Some are playing their party for what they see as an announcement of the State dropping all charges against GZ….after all why would they make him appear.

      I keep saying it — the ignorance of Zidiots is so profound that they don’t have enough sense to be ashamed. A court cannot grant relief not requested in the pleadings. O’Mara has not filed a motion to dismiss because such a motion in this case would be for an immunity hearing. The State won’t move to dismiss.

      Trayvon’s parents, neither DeeDee, were physically present to witness GZ kill Trayvon. They are State witnesses, so if prosecutors think there may be a problem come trial, the decision is simple — don’t call them as witnesses. The State has sufficient evidence to convict GZ of 2nd degree murder even if there were no ear witnesses.

      • towerflower says:

        I agree with you Xena, like I said it’s fun reading, it’s always good for a laugh. The theories they come up with never cease to amaze me. They are also talking about doing voice comparisons to determine if their theory of more than one Wit 8 is correct….compare Crump tape to BDLR tape to MOM’s depo. After all she has to be a hired actress to fill a role. Some still don’t believe, that TM was even on the phone much less with any Dee Dee.

        • Xena says:

          @towerflower. Ahhh. Voice comparisons. How about comparisons between GZ’s previous calls to the cops, and his call on 2/26/12 where his language is vile and slurred. Or maybe a comparison of his 2/26/12 call where he has no Spanish accent, and his testimony in court where he brings forth just enough to give people the impression that he’s Latino.

          Oooh — and what about his low, honey-do voice on the phone with ShelLIE, as compared to his “assholes” voice while on the phone with Sean.

          Yeah. I say the State should do voice comparisons to demonstrate GZ’s change of emotional states.

      • Jun says:


        They’re so braindead


        Trayvon’s family was not there, so there is nothing material they can give in terms of what happened that night, except that they know Trayvon, thats about it

        W8 is all hearsay at this point, and even if they want to say she lied about going to the hospital or somewhere with no quoted date and time (with the exception that she had to stay there at night time), her testimony is still supported by on scene evidence and forensics and witnesses, who match her story

        As far as I know, she can only testify to what she heard, and considering it matches the evidence, and is even bolstered by the defendant’s own excited utterances and GPS records, the jury would probably weigh into consideration that she is telling the truth, and the hospital or somewhere issue is moot

        And if they want to go there, Fogen is a proven repeated liar and manipulator, so using there logic, nothing Fogen said is credible

        • Xena says:

          @Jun. You’re correct. Other than what Trayvon said to DeeDee, and what she heard, all other questions are subject to objection on the basis of relevancy, which the court should sustain.

      • parrot says:


        “Or maybe a comparison of his 2/26/12 call where he has no Spanish accent, and his testimony in court where he brings forth just enough to give people the impression that he’s Latino.”

        I am glad someone else noticed that. I immediately picked up on his affected Spanish accent in the words, “I wanted to say …” and it made me sick.

        • Xena says:


          I am glad someone else noticed that. I immediately picked up on his affected Spanish accent in the words, “I wanted to say …” and it made me sick.

          And, I’m glad to know I’m not the only one who noticed that. 🙂

    • Jun says:

      Thats a load of malarkey


    • racerrodig says:

      Maybe his bond is being revoked for another matter. Maybe the crap he and his posse have been spewing on internet sites is going to be addressed….Jury tampering, witness tampering, who knows.

      • Jun says:

        perhaps the feds IP addressed the cyber threats towards DD (the wrong ones, but still cyberharassment) and it led to Fogen or is connected to Junior or their gang members aka the Conservative Tinfoil Hats

        We all know the case breakers they have come up with like DD being 37 and all, and there being 33 of them all played by Pam Grier LOL

    • Rachael says:

      LMAO @ them planning a party. Ha! Maybe coming on the heels of the Martin family and W#8, they are gonna toss him in jail. More likely though, just wanna make sure he hasn’t run off after talking with them. Getting close to trial, they just like to keep track of him – look at his pretty face you know. They don’t have to have a “reason,” per se – I mean he’s out on bail and they can demand to see him whenever they want. If he doesn’t like it, he could go back to jail, but he knows the conditions.

      A party for dropping charges. LMAO. Yeah, right.

      • MOM

        “Your Honor….my client is too large to fit through the courthouse doors and requests that the hearing take place outside…….If this is granted, my client would also like to request a Bar-B-Q”

  3. ay2z says:

    Question about deposing Crump, should the judge give way and allow deposition, would the the lawyers clients have any say in this? The damage to client confidence, if any, would already have been done once deposed so suppose it would be too late to complain after the fact..

    • Jun says:

      I think at most, she would grant with limited scope, since he is opposing counsel

      Because if he was not opposing, Crump would have a right to depose Omara about Fogenbottomz and other information, and I guarantee Omara would decline

      They can set up the deposition and Crump has the right to answer and not answer what he pleases

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “Because if he was not opposing, Crump would have a right to depose Omara…”

        Why and on what grounds?

        A civil suit which has not yet been filed in which it is not yet known if O’Mara will be representing anyone?


      • Jun says:

        You just answered the question yourself

  4. My satisfaction will come with fogen’s conviction

  5. acemayo says:

    Did not GZ have a party for his graduation he let it go on he never
    graduated he lied.
    So if DeeDee so she went somewhere but not did go she lied
    His lied is before TM shooting hers is after TM shooting
    If the truth was told before or after TM shooting
    It would not change the fact of TM shooting happen

    • ay2z says:

      Yeah, but he liked the free booze and the center of attention. “hospital or wherever….?”

      How do you answer this ‘yes’ or ‘no’, if you are nervous, do you object to the form of the question and demand to clarify like the cold fogen has demonstrated he has the smooth ability to do, even in court, under oath, LIE about how old he thought Trayvon was. Blatant lie ‘to the court’, even if he was directing his words, his lies, to the media using the child victim’s parents to do it. (maybe directing his statement to the parents, he could use another emotion, such as anger, to pull this off, and he never had to look at the judge, while he performed one word for the cameras).

      • He also told the detective that he graduated with his Associates Degree and was beginning his bachelors. He told that lie AFTER the shooting. He also said that Trayvon did not run. Another lie. Why no fanfare about GZ’s lies. Why??????

    • Jun says:

      I am not particularly worried about that

      I believe it can be objected on the grounds that it is assumed facts not in evidence and also on Immateriality

      and her testimony would be bolstered by forensics, and witnesses

      Lastly, even if they were going to say she lied, they are not going to convince a reasonable objective jury that she committed some crime or bad act, or her testimony is not solid

      and the fact is, Fogen, has plenty of lies, as well as Omara, that can be done back to them at rebuttal, and then it would place the issue on even ground

      Plus Deedee is not the only evidence in the world

  6. ay2z says:

    We have seen the defense learn the importance of media feeding from the Caylee case, so is it a stretch to say that they might consider an opening statement, to turn the state case upside down, by claiming ‘accident’ in some form or other?

    They will have to explain the lies and twisted truthies of their client, but that worked plenty well by implying the sexual abuse claims of Baez in opening. Worked perfectly, not even a lesser included charge was upheld.

    The Caylee case also showed how a lawyer can provide his own statements as ‘evidence’ in the case, to be considered on their own merit, even with the judge’s admonishment to the jury that this is not evidence to be considered.

    Can a variation on this theme work to get this shooter off?

    We have already had claims of sexual abuse by child fogen, and the lawyer could suggest a cause for this in that fogen was abused himself. We have heard about physical punishments of mother to son, and we have heard about control of the son towards his maternal side (cutting off electricity, locking the panel so no access, and leaving the premesis, by fogen).

    We saw how psych evaluations were done in the Caylee case, and we say how the defense spun that until the point where it became impossible to use these doctor’s as experts on the stand. Still does to today, as PTSD, and the real opinion of the doctors, has never been released, so he can say what he decides to believe about the some exceptional PTSD cause of his client’s lying condition. (youtube, Dr. PHil)

    How could a creative defense for fogen be crafted to work on a jury in this case? With the media so well buddied-up for story fodder by the defense and for social media to spread the message at the speed of light, and parent news outlets willing to let their writers subtly redefine ‘objectivivity’, can the defense turn reason, objectivity, any doubt, into ‘reasonable’ doubt for a jury pool already caught up in their audience? And who may subconsciously bring what they have heard into their decision making, even without realizing it? (the ‘lie’ they are hearing about now, is a good example for them to drive home now for jurors to have in the back of their minds).

    The state has no ability to counter the evidence the defense provides through the media.

    • ay2z says:

      Of course, the defense needs the right jury selected.

    • Jun says:

      Well I believe Omara may try jury tampering

      and them making up the new “accident” story would work against them because that is the 5000th story (but who’s counting) and would make them not credible due to contradictions

      • towerflower says:

        They would have a hard time selling the accident story considering how they have him on video talking about how he had to take careful aim as to not shot his left hand and stating that “I knew I was on him” when taking the final aim and position of the gun. When you go through all those steps, it’s hard to then say “it was an accident”.

  7. Trained Observer says:

    Finally! Am pleased to see this was done at FDLE office. Wonder if Crump, as the Martin family attorney, was present, Also wonder if DeeDee had legal counsel present, and if so, who.Would love it if she has some Miami blue-chipper on board pro bono — some one else to stick it royally to Team Fogen.

    • ay2z says:

      Absolutely, the witnesses being deposed would have assistance of counsel when their depositions are taken.

      • ay2z says:

        Dontcha hate it when you edit a sentence and then don’t edit out unnecessary words!?

      • Trained Observer says:

        Yes, but WHOOOOOOO:) I can think of a handful of Miami attorneys who could put the fear of all creation into MOM & West if they don’t lay off the liar accusations.

      • ay2z says:

        That would be a pleasure to watch, the criminal defense equivalent of Blackwell’s passion, experience, readiness and tact.

  8. Zimmerman attorneys depose Trayvon Martin’s girlfriend.,0,866649.story

    George Zimmerman’s attorneys were in South Florida late last week, deposing Trayvon Martin’s girlfriend, dad, mom and brother, according to newly-filed case records.

    On Wednesday, Mark O’Mara took the sworn account of Trayvon’s girlfriend, the state’s most important witness, at a Miami office of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

    Shortly after Trayvon’s death, she told authorities that she was on the phone with him a few moments before he was shot by Zimmerman, a Neighborhood Watch volunteer who had called Sanford police a few minutes earlier, describing the unarmed 17-year-old as suspicious.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Old Rene Stutzman is back on ze case– falsely claims Witness 8 told De la Rionda “she missed Trayvon’s funeral because she was in a hospital.” For a newspaper reporter, Rene is loose and lax with what are reported as facts.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Again, there seems to be a disconnect between the funeral and the wake, two separate functions. Moreover, mostly what we know is that Dee-Dee said “yeah” to BDLR’s inquiry about “hospital or something.”

        Stutzman’s wording of Dee-Dee stating she was “in a hospital” seems off, and well might eventually prove wrong. I look forward to deposition clarification on the Dee-Dee-hospital-wake-funeral bickering, even though it’s a sideshow.

        Other than that, the story was a standard reporting job.

      • ay2z says:

        Well, look at how WFTV put it, implying the lie included the statement that she was distraught. Readers have to be paying attention to take the suggestion ‘distraught’ out of the alleged ‘lie’. And to add to the confusion, WFTV article says this is ‘evidence’, as they quote O’Mara.

        The new evidence includes an admission by prosecutors that the teen lied when she said she had been so distraught over Martin’s death that she was hospitalized and couldn’t attend his funeral.

        O’Mara says that lie raises questions about the truthfulness of other parts of her testimony.

      • ay2z says:

        There was a quote in my comment above. Last two paragraphs should be in … oh oh, typed ‘back’ insead of block’ quote.

        This is what WFTV wrote– it’s an AP source, no writer attached, Looks like Stutzman is following someone’s ‘lead’ or ‘advice’ in her spins.

        The new evidence includes an admission by prosecutors that the teen lied when she said she had been so distraught over Martin’s death that she was hospitalized and couldn’t attend his funeral.

        O’Mara says that lie raises questions about the truthfulness of other parts of her testimony.

    • Rachael says:

      Finally. Let’s see what new thing they can come up with to complain about now.

      • ay2z says:

        Yeah, the WFTV article also quotes O’Mara as saying it was the ‘lie’ (or ‘new’ ‘evidence’ as the quote says), that should give them the right to depose Mr. Crump.

        That’s what this AP source story says at least. So, is the ‘lie’, alleged, actual, misunderstanding, or confusion of words, enough to cause Judge Nelson to give them what they want?

      • ay2z says:

        Let’s see OMara (bet cool hand West did the interrogation of Dee Dee) rip this young witness, or anyone close to Trayvon, for lying about being distraught. Let him try that will a fully fledged adult in this case.

  9. Jun says:

    Okay I just found out that Omara is actually going to take the depositions of the Trayvon family, some civilians, and w8 now

    He put forth the notices

    However, I might note, they should bring protection for the witnesses, and potentially let w8 depose via telephone, because of nutters

    • PYorck says:

      Then they would never stop going on about the ‘shroud of secrecy’.

      Let them have full access to all witnesses and all discovery and let their conspiracy soufflé collapse.

      I just hope they won’t find excuses to leak selections from her depo as they did with Officer Whatshisname.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Jun, I agree with you on your above comment because, if the state does not take some precautions for the safety of this witness there is no telling what could happen to her. there is already some people who are saying, that if the POS is convicted, they are going to unleash violence against AA and especially young black males. it is so shameful, that people like those who are supporting the murderer of an AA kid, are also making threats against people who are not even bothering them.

      They actually want to see him get away with this and, it’s only because of the race of the victim. these are IMO some very sick people as well as dangerous. this kid needs to be protected by the state of Florida when she testifies. if the Fogen family who lied about them being threatened and, being able to testify via a phone hook up, then deedee should be give that same kind of protection because, there really people out there who wish to do her harm. I pray for her safety. BTW, why is the defense deposing the family of their client’s victim?

  10. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Here is my response to a gz supporter on the
    NBC site:
    gz supporter:
    ………..”Isn’t that exactly what TV just said? Pull trigger, loud bang,
    ………….scream stops.”[ric]

    My reply:
    It shows that gz was in control. A person in control does not have loud, desperate screams. Also, by the time gz shot Trayvon, gz already knew that he had failed in his solicitation for help from Witness 6 who had gone back into his townhouse to call 911. Why continue calling for assistance?
    gz statement:
    ……………..Zimmerman: so I tried to squirm off the concrete and when I did that, somebody here opened the door and I said help me, help me, and they said, “I’ll call 911.” I said, “No, help me, I need help.” And I don’t know what they did.
    My comment:
    “No, help me, I need help.” = gz admits here to having a verbal exchange amidst his supposed yells for help. This again proves that gz was not the one calling for help. Such an interruption in desperate screams for help to have a verbal exchange is not consistent with the screams for help recorded in the audio of W11’s call.

    Also, gz’s father said he had not heard gz yell since gz was Trayvon’s age…..that is, since the time that gz lived in Manassas, VA. And, so, gz’s father was basically admitting that the screaming for help was that of a 17 year old which actually helps the prosecution.
    gz supporter:
    ……..”Even Leatherman on his blog retracted the myth that TM ………could not have uttered any sounds after being shot.Turns out Leatherman, after investigating, informed the blog group that indeed TM would have been capable of vocalization for a short time following. [ric]”
    My response:
    Not for those loud, desperate screams……only, perhaps, for moaning and saying something like “Ouh, God.” which gz might have misinterpreted as “You got it.” which is one of the two word choices gz gave the investigators. [The other was “You got me.” ] — “God” and “got” have a “d” and a “t” respectively and can be “mis-heard” when coming from a person that has just been shot near his heart.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      While those were some very thoughtful comments, I must point out one thing. When GZ’s bullet slammed into Trayvon’s chest, chewing up his left ventricle and puncturing his lung, he experienced quite a bit of trauma. Massive chest pains, lungs filling with blood, a chest cavity filling with blood and a brain starving for oxygen, rising CO2 levels causing urgent signals to breath, it’s difficult, if not impossible to imagine TM’s dire internal struggles from keeping him non-verbal.

      Okay, but if that wasn’t enough to prevent him from uttering a coherent phrase, then this certainly would. You see, to operate the lungs the diaphragm needs an intact plural cavity, otherwise, breathing in or out is impossible. Trayvon’s chest had a hole in it, so any attempt to compress the chest does not force air out of the lungs, but, instead releases the pressure through the hole in his chest. Any attempt to draw air into the lungs, again, doesn’t create a vacuum in which the lungs can expand, but instead draws air in through the hole in the chest that defeats the creation of the vacuum needed to inflate the lungs.

      So, Trayvon would not have been able to move air in or out of his lungs, once the hole in his chest was opened. Which is indicated by the earliest attempts at CPR, the gurgling noises were air moving in and out of the chest cavity, without effect on the lungs.

      So, Trayvon did not fall silent for lack of air in his lungs as some medical people have explained. He would have had some residual air in his lungs. What Trayvon lacked was any means to move that air in or out of his lungs, because the hole in his chest defeated the compression/vacuum action of the chest and diaphragm.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @You all (YAHTC)

      The only input from Zimmerman re post-shot statements/vocalization that I could possibly believe is when he said to SPD that Trayvon’s last words/sounds were:

      “Ow. Ow.”

      This breaks my heart.

      Those would be the only sounds Trayvon would be capable of making, with a shredded lung, diminished blood pressure from diversion of blood from its normal route through the now-shattered heart, and lack of sufficiant blood supply to the brain.

      They sounds were likely involuntary.

      Then a gurgle.

      Zimerman’s pattern is to support his lying narrative with nuggets of truth. All this “you got it,” “you got me,” is a replay of his earlier conversation with Sean 311, and part of his imaginary screenwriter fantasy.

      That stuff was invented to support his BS about “I didn’t know if I shot him” (what? the idiot was stone deaf to the shot being fired?)
      and, to feed Zimmerman’s self-hero worship, included Trayvon supposedly saying “I give up.”

      Zimmerman is such a loser, so weak, and knows he is a loser and weakling in every sense of the word – morally, ethically, intellectually – cowardly, consistently unsuccessful, that he even had to invent a post-shooting CAPITULATION by the unarmed juvenile Trayvon, to bolster Zimmerman’s frail ego into believing, the he, Zimmerman the loser-murderer, had somehow “triumphed.”

      Trayvon Benjamin Martin did not “give up.”

      His life force was blasted away by a lying, Kel-Tek-packin’ low-life cowardly loser.

      By George Michael Zimmerman – a disgusting, stinking, reeking, moral maggot.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Pirahna, how well and movingly you have summed it all up. Thank you for your important imput!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Piranhamom…..sorry about misspelling your name and leaving the mom off.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Well, maybe the kickback hitting his nose was so great he thought he shot himself. But for the rest– hands up “I know you have a gun, I give up”– I think that was well before the shot was fired, so yes, I agree 100% and wonder how many others likw gz are empowered by our nation many insane gun laws.

      • racerrodig says:

        Well said, now tell us how you really feel about this scum bag.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        He’ll be leaving prison in a bright orange body bag.

        • PiranhaMom says:


          “He’ll be leaving prison in a bright orange body bag.”

          Thanks, Lonnie. Finally found something about George Zimmerman you could correctly describe as “bright,”

          • By the time fogen dies in prison……his folks will have been long gone….and I suspect the rest of his family…..shellie included will have moved on with their lives and forgotten him…….

            No one claims his body?….He’ll never leave prison even in death, he’ll be buried in the prison cemetery……and what memory there is of him will be swept into the dustbin of history.

          • racerrodig says:

            Yep……a real “Role Model” and what a “great life” he’ll lead as per SheLie.

          • racerrodig says:

            Speaking of not very bright, where’s his 2 watt brother been. The silence is deafening.

          • Xena says:


            Speaking of not very bright, where’s his 2 watt brother been. The silence is deafening.

            Junior tweeted no long ago that there was a leak — a reporter was in his driveway. Just goes to show that Zidiots can’t trust each other.

          • racerrodig says:

            No doubt Jr was drunk at the time, he meant “A reporter is taking a leak in my driveway” …….as if he actually owns property !!

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. (GULP) ROFLMAO

          • racerrodig says:

            I heard Jr’s been asked to leave the neighborhood………that’s going to be a problem until the broken hitch is welded on his house.

          • Xena says:

            LOL@racerrodig. Now, that’s just being bad. Chances are that Junior lives in an RV rather than a trailer. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Well, either way, I’m sure whatever neighbors he has, they want to flip his “house” on it’s side.

      • Jun says:

        LMAO what super lame reporter would go to his driveway? When did trailers have their own driveway?

        So many questions, so little time

        Reporter: Would you agree that if your brother did not have a gun that night, the victim Trayvon would be still alive today?

        Junior: I’m Afro-Peruvian and Japanese

        Reporter: Thats nice but I was asking if you felt Trayvon would be alive if not for your brother bringing a gun to where Trayvon was?

        Junior: You see when your head is being slammed into a sidewalk

        Reporter: Well if your head is being slammed into concrete, you would go into a coma, or die, and bleed everywhere, and your skull would have numerous fractures and crack open. Your brother only had two 2cm or less superficial scratches that self healed and he administered knuckle bandages to them. It does not sound consistent with your allegations of the sidewalk head slam. I would agree if you say he was scratched with a tree branch or something like that.

        Junior: Were you there? Why are you talking like you were there? I’m a white person and white people are being oppressed.

        Reporter: I though you said you were Afro Peruvian and Japanese. But okay, so you are a white man. Yes I was not there, but looking at the evidence, that was there, it is not consistent with his claims. I highly doubt having a human skull slammed into a concrete sidewalk would self heal within a matter of a couple minutes and have blood dry already. By the way, you were not there either, nor can you be objective.

        Junior: It’s Obama’s fault. He should not have showed empathy for Trayvon. Trayvon does not look like him.

        Reporter: have you been drinking?

  11. Malisha says:

    About the idea that the “prosecution” (actually it’s the family of the deceased, not the prosecution at all) should dump Crump so the case doesn’t get ruined is a ploy that the defense is promoting to try to sow dissension in the ranks of the Trayvon camp and to try to force DeeDee into an unprotected position so they can attack her. I am very familiar with this.

    In the 90s I was helping a mom and her two daughters in NY. Both girls had been molested by their father, who had a “founded case” of child sexual abuse against him in the state-wide child abuse registry. But Judge William W. Warren of the Juvenile Court had given the molesting dad custody and was forcing the mom into supervised visits and the visit supervisors were writing false reports saying the girls didn’t want to see their mother any more; this was to prevent anyone from suing the state because both girls had pelvic inflammatory disease (at ages 6 and 9) and had been hospitalized because of the health problems they had from sexual “activities” with some adult male. (Gee, I wonder who?) We got a proper federal suit filed with the help of two physicians from Nyack Hospital. Both of them had made mandated reports of suspected child abuse to the hotline; both reports were dismissed without investigation. The federal judge on the case started to really do “law” in an open court room and a journalist got interested in the case and — suddenly —

    The mom got a lawyer who just sauntered up and offered his services to the poor beleaguered lady. Wow, she was so glad! That lawyer then managed to take her to dinner and wine her and dine her and declare his love for her (nevermind he was married)…

    Then guess what! They got “close” and then they got what the mom called “too close” and then guess what? The lawyer started to tell the mom that she should distance herself from Malisha or “nobody will listen to you any more and the judge won’t give back your kids, ever.” His reasons? “The whole legal community says she has no credibility.” But what credibility did I ever need? I was not a witness; I was not a lawyer; I was not IN THE CASE at all. I had been with the mom at the hospital, at her home, at court — I was a helper.

    Well the “close lawyer” got her thinking his way and we dropped out of contact (her last words to me on the phone were “F*CK YOU, get a LIFE!”) and then I confirmed the following:

    The lawyer dropped off the case; too much stress, he said.
    She lost everything and spent six months in jail for failure to pay child support.
    She lost her job as an addictions counselor because it was said that she had “credibility problems.”
    Her children were described as “refusing visitation with their mother” so she never saw THEM again.
    That lawyer predictably stayed with his wife and stopped being “too close” to the mom.

    I have seen this kind of nonsense 100X. The helpers are driven off the case by all kinds of false allegations against THEM so that the people who are being supportive to the complaining witnesses can be prevented from filling that vital function.

    You can’t fight a satanic camp (like the Z-Nation) without your helpers. YOU NEED YOUR HELPERS. Hoodies up to Crump.

  12. Angela Corey is on the ID channel talking about the Corey Parker murder in Jacksonville, she always smiles as she speaks.

  13. towerflower says:

    Did anyone notice that on page 33 of 38 (Exhibit E) that they edited the question by BDLR about the hospital? They have on their transcript, “Okay, did you end up going to the hospital or” and then immediately go into the response by Witness 8. What’s up with that? Creative editing by the defense?

    • willisnewton says:

      I had not noticed that but I’m not the slightest bit surprised. Mark O’Mara fulfills the stereotype for the old lawyer joke: how can you tell when a lawyer is lying? A: His lips are moving.

      That’s pretty low, and an obvious omission on the part of the defense counselor. This sort of thing won’t go unnoticed by the judge or the prosecution.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Well spotted! Yes, very creative editing and the prosecution no doubt will point it out in their reply if they need to.

    • ay2z says:

      Yes! I noticed tjhat. A certain Judge may not be amused, if BDLR points that out in response.

      How obvious can they get with a little deception of omission?

      • towerflower says:

        You think they would be more careful, seeing how they are suing NBC for their editing and here the defense is getting creative on theirs.

      • gbrbsb says:


        “…they are suing NBC for their editing and here the defense is getting creative on theirs.”

        Can’t stop laughing… well spotted… absolutely love it…. just too farcical, ironic and priceless… Just hope NBC notice it and use it in one of their replies, motions or whatever. If it weren’t there in print it would be too good to be true!

        BTW, GZvNBC site still hasn’t uploaded NBC’s motion to stay proceedings…

  14. ladystclaire says:

    Angela Corey is on a segment on the ID channel. this is a pretty interesting case which she prosecuted in Jacksonville.

  15. Malisha says:

    A funny thing about “Creepytwins”: look at this ending to one of his/her senseless comments:

    And at this point, my view is that fogen is a wanna be tough guy who made some stupid decisions on that night. But I also see…

    And then it cuts off. I know what creepy was, and it’s good to see the last of it, but look at the way it reconstructs and reframes what happened.

    Fogen is called a “wannabe tough guy”

    He is said to have “made some stupid decisions on that night.”

    So his motive is that he’s pretend tough.
    And his act? Not a crime — just a “stupid decision.”

    Now, in another time (any place) or another place (Sanford, at apparently ANY TIME), what creepy calls a “stupid decision” is the decision to commit murder. The decision to KILL somebody is characterized as a “stupid decision.”

    Now, this is the way SPD wanted to look at the events of 2/26/2012. They didn’t want anybody to say the “N-word” — they’d rather characterize the whole thing as a decision-making error. So one wonders what a real (as opposed to “wannabe”) “tough guy” would have decided to do. Would a real “tough guy” have DECIDED not to kill Trayvon Martin that night? Is that how we figure out what’s legal and illegal in our society?

    • ay2z says:

      Bait ‘n Switch comes to mind.

    • kimmi says:

      From CTH:
      creepytwins says:
      March 19, 2013 at 10:52 pm
      I just git banned by leatherman. I dared to suggest that the “fogen” (lolz!) was safe because of Crump’s lies. Jun, Xena et. al. don’t understand the end game.

      • Xena says:

        @kimmi. Zidiots get sooooo very confused. Because attorney Crump is Black, they think that the case is Zimmerman vs. Crump. Because DeeDee is assumed to be Black, they think the case is Zimmerman vs. Witness 8.

        You see, they first have to learn that the State is the one who versus George M. Zimmerman and not GZ vs. every Black person who has ever spoken about the case.

        Their White Superiority dysfunction converts everything to making Blacks defendants.

      • Jun says:

        He seems to be under the impression that the case surrounds Deedee and Crump, when it is the “State of Florida” vs Fogenhats

        I tried explaining it to him but, he’s a bloodclot idiot

        He could not even prove Crump lied and Crump’s not even a witness or presenting any evidence, so even if he was lying, what evidence would be struck out because of Crump LMAO (not saying Crump lied, as there is no evidence of this occurring)

        He acts as if, it can be proven that Deedee or Crump lied about immaterial issues, it means that every single lie and action that Fogenhats did becomes null LMAO

        If we are to go by Creepy’s logic, then Fogen’s self defense claim must be null because it can be proven he contradicted himself and also lied and manipulated

      • racerrodig says:

        Nothing like admitting to being a troll (good call on our part) and it looks like that “6th grade edecshun” really paid off for him.

        Looks like he doesn’t understand that (A) This is not a game & (B) Fogen will lose the “…end game..”

    • Jun says:

      killing a kid after stalking, chasing, and terrorizing the kid, and then slandering every black person, is just “stupid decisions”

      who raised these leeches of society?

    • Patricia says:

      Hi malisha, love your posts as well of others, some people just get stuck in that room with green walls and can’t find the door to get out. One of my sisters told me that the new police chief was
      making head way in sanford. This would be one maybe …

      Hope ms commissioner pantaloon patty is paying attention and reading all those old emails . Haaaa haaaa!!!!!

  16. I just banned creepy twins.

    • Thank you Prof.

      Nothing more than a rabble rouser

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Thank you also.
      Please forgive my saying, “…creepy..and crazy.”

    • racerrodig says:

      There go my hardy laughs for the next week, but a big Thank You !!

    • ay2z says:

      Frederick Leatherman says:
      March 19, 2013 at 6:06 pm
      Absurd nonsense.

      Consider yourself banned.


      Amazing try, you guys but the troll’s head is simply too thick to reason.

      I appreciate your joining in the responses, Prof, pupts it in perspective for all to see. I just bumbled in and couldn’t resist with the ‘T’ word, and am so glad I was not making a mistake. Whew!

      Beverages of whatever description, all around to celebrate the end of the recent troll-dom attempt!!

      • ay2z says:

        Agreed, Ray is in a class all himself, no question.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          ay2z says

          Agreed, Ray is in a class all himself, no question.

          yes of course, i’m so glad we do not have a falling out at this juncture. i can also see a point to the version you first posted (forgot the group name already, but remember wolfman) … it did add a bit of cheeze to the troll whine 😉

      • gbrbsb says:

        Sorry ay2z, but even dubbed the original is still the best!

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @gbrbsb – would have to agree on the original of ‘hit the road, jack’ although it must be chilly in hell as i am differing with ay2z on a music related issue. on a side note, i used to have a stunningly beautiful, cream colored standard poodle who liked to ride shotgun with me in my vintage ’62 mercury monterey. she was trained when i was picking up a human passenger to jump into the back seat at the command of ‘hit the back, jack’ although her name was tess and she looked divine sporting a jackie O scarf and cat eye glasses 😉

          • gbrbsb says:

            Oooops… is ay2z a music whatever… I did’t know… I’m sooooo sorry!

            The resident classic American car guru over here has just advised me that the Monterey was famous as the only car with an electric angled back window and was inspiration for it’s very much impoverished cousin over here, the Ford Anglia.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @gbrbsb – just wanted to make sure there was no confusion. when i want to listen to ‘hit the road, jack’ there is no one i want to hear sing it but brother ray. i had the pleasure of seeing him many times and had major dreams of being a ‘rayette’ when i grew up, courtesy of my mamma’s album collection. it is just unusual if ay2z differ on anything musical, so far at least.

            yes, the mercurys with the ‘breezeway’ roll down rear window were spectacular, alas, my model did not have that, but it was still a beauty. i had to give it up when i became a mommy because seat belts were ‘optional’ that year and mine had none. it was fun to discuss the finer points of seat belt laws however with the occasional officer who tried to pull me over for not wearing one. my hippy friends gave me grief for driving a gas guzzler, but i argued that since i could set 7-8 adults comfortably that i was providing mass transit. it was a party mobile as good as anything the B-52s could envision 🙂 (i miss it, obviously … someday when kids are grown, i’ll have to get another or similar.)

          • gbrbsb says:

            Absolutely no confusion, offence or whatever, faux, ’twas me not wanting to step on anyone’s toes should they be more erudite in the matter as I am no expert. I just know what I like and “brother” Ray’s “Hit the…” was from my teen years when I realised music rocked so lots of memories attached!

            Over here any pre ’64 car is deemed a classic so exempt from seat belt laws and even road tax. There is quite a large following for classic American cars; my OH and his two learning impaired sons have a ’58 and ’59 caddy imported from the US, roadworthy most of the time but in need of body work (rust) but unaffordable at present, so I know what you mean about “mass transit” albeit here only 6 as the max allowed is 3 per bench seat.

          • cielo62 says:

            Gbrbsb- don’t Ford Anglias fly? Especially blue ones? (Think Harry Potter)

            Sent from my iPod

          • gbrbsb says:


            “…don’t Ford Anglias fly?”

            Not in the 60’s they didn’t ???!!! Am I getting this wrong? Do you mean “fly” as in; move through the air using physical or mechanical propulsion, (Spanish: volar), or even speed, as in; very very fast?

            As to Harry Potter, from the little I have seen and heard I expect anything is possible… even a flying Ford Anglia… but I never moved on from Tolkein so I don’t really know.

          • cielo62 says:

            Oh gbrbsb~ yes, the Ford Anglia in the 2nd movie did indeed fly, as in, through the air. 🙂  Don’t worry; not many adults got into the series, although I ate them up like sweet candy. Tolkien was way too serious. I’m sorry ot have pulled your leg like that!  LOL!

          • racerrodig says:

            I have to say that in my biz (race cars, hot rods, hot boats and such) we use the term “fly” all the time, “steam” as well.

            Like “I’ll tell ya, the new engine I did for Randy’s car…..well, it really flies now.

            “Since I put the tunnel ram on my big block, that puppy really steams in high gear now!!”

            I do remember that one of James Bonds villains, Scaramanga, had a a flying Matador…..right !!

          • gbrbsb says:

            No need for “sorry”, cielo; it’s just you had me worried I was missing something or that you were on something! I’ve seen amphibious cars… but flying ones! And a Ford Anglia ??? (for me one of the most unfortunately shaped cars of the time ! Judging by its success the Harry Potter series has to be really good but it arrived past my time for immersing myself in that genre.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            just for fun 🙂 whe i bought my mercury, i got it from the estate of a nasa machinist who lived in san francisco. the trunk was filled with an old suitcase complete with all shop manuals, full set of belts and hoses, and the 1962 sales brochure. i still have the sales brochure and have made silly graphics with it for various forums —


          • gbrbsb says:

            Thanks for link but it only shows me a teeny weeny image although enough to see that neither has the typical sloped in back window… I think!

          • fauxmccoy says:

            no, my model did not and that was just a silly graphic i made as a signature for a forum. the mercury parklane often had the breezeway window though – – my dad was kind enough to track down a second mercury, same year and store it on his ranch for me to use as a parts car. explains some of my love for the following ….

          • gbrbsb says:

            Good road beat!

          • gbrbsb says:

            So, so sorry Cielo, forgot to remove the block quote for my reply! I was distracted intrigued about what you meant by a flying Ford Anglia!

          • racerrodig says:

            Naaaaaa That was Chitty Chitty Bang Bang

          • cielo62 says:

            LOL! I Was amazed when I learned that other countries had different cars. I really want an Indian Tata.

            Sent from my iPod

      • ay2z says:

        Thanks, gbrsb, I am sure to enjoy! Thanks for adding that. I thought the silliness of the wolfman jack phonecall on the 70’s Stampeder’s track was about right given the time of the post to the troll-tossin.

        But for the rest of us, your classic! 🙂

        (PS, there’s also a version with Wynton Marsalis, Willie Nelson,Norah Jones…. and friends…so here’s one back atcha! 🙂


      • onlyiamunitron says:

        Nice find. I only knew them for “Sweet City Woman”.

        Apparently this didn’t chart high enough to get any airplay where I was when it came out.


    • kimmi says:

      Good call Professor. Creepy was trolling…
      creepytwins says:
      March 19, 2013 at 10:52 pm
      I just git banned by leatherman. I dared to suggest that the “fogen” (lolz!) was safe because of Crump’s lies. Jun, Xena et. al. don’t understand the end game.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Xena –

      Re: “I just banned creepy twins.”

      For IDIOCY.


      • Xena says:

        Oh my — and I still have 137 email notifications of comments to get through. Darnit. Guess I will just delete creepy-creepy’s comments without reading them.

    • Jun says:


      I felt I was being reasonable

      I asked him to prove that there was in fact lies from Crump or Deedee

      He could not

      His assumption was based on pure speculation

      To prove a lie, you would have to prove the person had first hand knowledge of the issue, and then said otherwise

      You can’t just accuse people with no proof, otherwise it is assuming facts not in evidence, and it can not be used

      To prove Deedee or Crump lied would have no practical application and would be a wasted effort of resources and there is no proof that either party lied or misrepresented with intent

      There were no dates whatsoever specified in that part of the interactions and she could have ended up at the hospital or somewhere at any time and stayed a night there, which could also mean she went there at night time, at the hospital or somewhere

      I also do not see how they would prove she was not distraught to go to the wake, because, there is just no way to prove it LOL

      When the judge called it moot, she is correct, as it is a pretended controversy, with no practical application, and is purely academic

      • dianetrotter says:

        Distraught. This will haunt her for the rest of her life. She was completely helpless, unable to assistance a friend that she heard being assaulted. She will recall how TM first voiced concern about the creepy man up through realized that TM was murdered. She might feel guilt that she was unable to help. She is the one who should have PTSD.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Thank you Professor.

  17. PYorck says:

    I think part of the problem with Crump is that many people on both sides of the case argue from a strangely naive view of his role as a lawyer – either sincerely or in order to attack a straw man.

    Of course he is not impartial. Of course he wanted Deedee’s statement to be damaging. Of course he wanted to make sure that he had all the good bits on the recording. Of course he doesn’t want to provide the defense with more information than he has to or considers useful for his side.

    When I hear Crump getting Deedee to repeat things or drawing her attention to certain aspects then I don’t hear “OMG conspiracy”, but I hear a lawyer who is working in the interest of his clients.

    If there is evidence that he commited a crime or a real ethics violation then I have yet to see it.

    • Jun says:

      I read the motion and a lot of it is hogwash and just attacks on Crump

      1) He has the ABC tape, therefore, Omara has the information he seeks from that interview.

      2) His argument of opposing counsel is hogwash too. Crump is not on the same side as Omara, therefore, he is opposing counsel.

      3) Only recorded conversations can be used. Anything not recorded is a private conversation. They have the ABC recording and it explains everything.

      4) So what? Crump did not take proper recording procedures, and even admits that there are some parts he may have forgot to turn on the recorder of his.

      5) Crump can not represent someone else’s statements for them, as that is hearsay. They should depose witness 8.

      6) Even in the motion, they admit that their script between the state and them, is not authenticated, and they really do not have any information to back it up. The only proof is the state stated there were never any medical records for the defense to obtain, but never gave the reasoning for it, and said it was moot, and told the defense to depose witness 8, and then bring it up at a later hearing. Judge agreed and told them to talk to witness 8 to get to the bottom of what they seeked, and then depose her on the medical records only, after, if necessary. Then the issue was declared moot.

      7) Perjury requires materiality to the case. W8’s sworn statement is “she ended up at the hospital or somewhere”. If they deposed witness 8, they could clarify the what she meant.

      8) Witness 8’s interview with Crump and ABC present, she simply stated she felt too ill to go to the wake and eventually ended up at the hospital for a night. Another issue, if they feel it is important, although moot, they could simply ask witness 8 to clarify her position. It seems rather vague because she could have went to the hospital or somewhere at night time, and no actual overnight stay was done.

      9) If they deposed witness 8, then they could conclusively clarify their moot issue, regarding her hospital or somewhere stay, whatever date it was since none was specified, and also find out about her hospital records, straight from the source of the information. Since no date was specified, and the only reason she states that she could not attend, was because she was too ill, there’s not much they can do to prove otherwise, so the issue is moot. As for the hospital or somewhere stay, it could have happened before the wake, and then she had to stay home afterward because she was too ill, or she was too ill to go to the wake, and then ended up at the hospital at a later date, and stayed home for the time being. Sounds like it can be solved by deposing witness 8.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        O’Mara does not have the entire ABC recording.

        No one has the entire ABC recording yet except ABC.

        So no one except ABC yet knows what is or is not on it.

        “Crump is not on the same side as Omara, therefore, he is opposing counsel.”

        According to that logic, every lawyer in the world except O’Mara and West are opposing counsel to O’Mara and West.


      • Jun says:

        Well that is correct then

        Crump is not on Fogen’s side

        Simple math

  18. Malisha says:

    I would love it if Judge Nelson were to make the following findings and grant the following relief (but this is a pipe-dream):

    1. I find that Attorney Crump is a very bad person;
    2. I find that DeeDee, whoever she is, is a terrible young woman of the wrong age;
    3. I find that George Michael Zimmerman is a very fine person who should be admired by everyone for his selfless efforts to protect his downtrodden fearful community of victimized Afro-Peruvians;


    4. Trial on the Murder-2 charge against George Michael Zimmerman for the killing of Trayvon Benjamin Martin starts June 10.

  19. Two sides to a story says:

    “My point is that a person who tells an untruth or two, hides something, exaggerates or underplays is not a ‘liar’ but merely a human being.”

    Exactly. It could be that W8 exaggerated her involvement with hospital because she didn’t want to go to the wake and needed an excuse bigger than “I didn’t feel well.”

    It could be that Crump misunderstood W8 age because he assumed she was the same age as Travyvon.

    The “lies” are a tempest in a teapot – Fogenites love that sort of thing. It will keep them busy donating until the next hearing.


  20. whonoze says:

    The whole creepytwins section of this thread, and the media headlines “Prosecution admits witness lied!” and even some of the posts from regulars here lead me to wonder what happens to our understandings of human behavior when some hot button issue is on the line. I feel like we’re someplace where no one has ever seen an episode of ‘House.’ (Since I’m sure SOME folks indeed never watched that show, House’s main dictum was “Everybody lies.” As in little white lies, that in the context of the show posed problems for the doctors trying to diagnose mysterious afflictions.)

    My point is that a person who tells an untruth or two, hides something, exaggerates or underplays is not a ‘liar’ but merely a human being. To anyone who would get all up in arms over DeeDee having even the slightest failing to tell the complete, exact and accurate truth, I would ask, “What percentage of teenagers do you think have failed to tell the complete, exact and accurate truth in a half-hour conversation with an adult authority figure?” 80%? 90%? 99 47/100%? 16, 18 whatever, DeeDee does not perceive the world through the cold lens of objective, but through the highly subjective sensorium and worldview of adolescence. Yet, when push comes to shove, most kids are trustworthy on the important stuff.

    What counts is not whether person X ever uttered a falsehood, but whether how often they do so and in what circumstances. A “liar” is someone who routinely advances falsehoods about important things and can NEVER be trusted to be truthful. Casey Anthony is a liar. George Zimmerman is a liar. DeeDee is just a kid (and Benjamin Crump is just a lawyer…sorry Prof. but you know what I mean.)

    • Malisha says:

      Furthermore, to whom does any particular person owe “the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth”? In a court of law, after taking an oath, a witness owes it to the court itself. If, however, the witness chooses not to answer a question, he or she can refuse to answer and deal with the consequences. Yet here’s DeeDee being asked questions by lawyers and other authority figures. Maybe they ask her something she doesn’t want to answer. She doesn’t KNOW that she can say: “I do not want to talk about that” or “I do not want to answer that question.” She might make up a white lie to get past the question without being thought ill of. [Sorry, call the grammar police on me if you must.] She was not represented when she spoke with the people who interviewed her. She was prepared to tell them what she knew of the conversation with Trayvon because, after all, that’s what she was told they were wanting to know about. But was she prepared for them to go into other things that might have embarrassed her? No. Is it possible that, when questioned on things she was unprepared for, she gave an imperfect or even unfortunate answer? Perhaps. There’s no proof of that, but it’s perfectly possible.

      And so the Hell what?

      The conversation she heard, regardless of what it was substantively, lasted until AFTER the confrontation BETWEEN Fogen and Trayvon began. See? Thus, it is obvious that Trayvon did not lay in wait for his hapless victim and then viciously attack him and then savagely beat him within an inch of his life. It is THAT EASY. When viciously attacking someone, you get off the phone first. You put away the phone BEFORE committing attempted murder. ALWAYS. It’s like Rule #1 in the book on “How to Attempt Murder of an Innocent Man looking for an address” and even on the prequel: “How to viciously and savagely attack an innocent neighborhood watch guy who is not on patrol.”

    • dianetrotter says:

      I love House!

    • racerrodig says:

      Thank you and well said. The bottom line is when one majors in the minors with these issues it is textbook trolling.

      It is to quote O’ Mara “….undisputed….” Dee Dee has not done anything to rate these assaults…..So what if she was not mentally up to attending Trayvon’s funeral / wake / service. What does that have to do with the murder.

      We could run down a list of Fogen / SheLie / O’ Mara lies and take all night to do it.

    • Jun says:

      You make a valid point

      And it is recognized by the court, according to my research

      They recognize and presume everyone is innocent until proven otherwise, as a witness

      They recognize that humans misspeak or there may be confusion or miscommunications, which is why the court prefers straight from the source, that way, all the common human errors are taken out

      It is like they say, a tempest in a teapot

      It is also one of the reasons their is “materiality” needed for perjury or even false statements indictments because there is also the fact that people tell white lies with no evil intent

      It is also why as a general rule, specific instances of misconduct are not allowed as character evidence because no human is perfect and every human may make a mistake or two

      The vast difference which you pointed out, is that Fogen and his team, repeatedly lie and manipulate, therefore it is not specific instances of misconduct in regards to lying

      Simplest answer though, is that the issues are irrelevant, immaterial, moot, and assuming facts not in evidence

  21. dianetrotter says:

    “Chad was not Trayvon’s brother.” It is part of kid culture to refer to friends and loose relationships as cousins, brothers, auntees, and uncles. It drives me nuts as a teacher when I am trying to accumulate facts; however, they kids do not consider themselves liars. It seems to simplify relationships for them.

    • Malisha says:

      I have called people “sister” who are not daughters of my two particular parents. I have been called “sister” by people unrelated to me by blood. I am called “Auntie” by about a dozen children who are not children of any sibling of mine. What’s the big deal?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      We have many blended families in my family. It’s much easier to call kids brother and sister rather than step-brother and step-sister.

    • Jun says:

      People call each other brother, sister, aunt, all the time, even if they are not related

      Relationship wise, Chad is Trayvon’s little brother

    • Nef05 says:

      It’s always been a part of Black culture in particular. Back to tribal times (I suspect Native American, as well), when the village did, indeed, raise the children. But, specific to America during the slavery era, when blood ties were frequently broken by breaking up families and “loose” familial relationships were all that was left, if that. It has certainly become mainstream over time, encompassed by everyone as blended families and single parent households spread across our nation.

      Certainly agree it seems to simplify relationships for kids and I love it, too. I think it promotes tolerance, inclusion and community.

      • Jun says:

        Its not just a black thing, its a human thing

        people not related referring to each other as nephew, cousin, brother, sister, is pretty normal

        You do not even have to be the same culture, race, or bloodline

        I have people I am not related to, call me cousin, or nephew, all the time

        It’s especially true with adopted children too

        relationships are deeper than simple race or bloodlines

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Nef05 –
        Re: kids & relationships.

        Glad you love it. My kids are close to my age, but we are a uniquely affectionate dynamic, and it doesn’t occur to my friends that these kids are, in fact, my stepchildren.

        When someone comments “You must have had your children at an early age,” I just wave it off by saying, “Actually, I got them as wedding gifts.”

        • Nighters folks……Brothers & Sisters all…….HOODIES UP

          MMP OUT

        • fauxmccoy says:

          piranhamom says

          When someone comments “You must have had your children at an early age,” I just wave it off by saying, “Actually, I got them as wedding gifts.”

          that is sweet, patricia 🙂

          i can only add my own experience with familial titles of those not actually in one’s family. although i was born in the mid 60s, my folks were somewhat older when they married and had children. they taught us to call everyone Mr. or Mrs. whatever, it is a habit that is difficult for me to break to this day, regardless that my friends’ parents have asked (ok begged) that i call them by their first names.

          there were some friends of our family who were so close and so trusted that my parents would allow us children to call them by their first names, with the caveat being that they were called ‘aunt joyce’ or ‘uncle gus’. i suspect i am not the only one who was brought up that way. for all intents and purposes, they were my aunts and uncles; they knew me better, spent more time with me and i still consider them to be family elders and treat with utmost respect.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Faux –

            Re: there were some friends of our family who were so close and so trusted that my parents would allow us children to call them by their first names, with the caveat being that they were called ‘aunt joyce’ or ‘uncle gus’

            Yes, Faux, surnames are often more difficut for little kids, too. My mother, as a Brit, insisted on Mr. and Mrs., too (or rank, if that was applicable), but after mangling surnames (usually to hoots of laughter) for close friends we were permitted “Aunt” and “Uncle” (or Tante et Oncle or Tia y Tio).

            I have a young Russian immigrant friend; when I call her I say, “This is your babushka calling … ” Ya’ get extra hugs with that!

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          ““Actually, I got them as wedding gifts.” ”

          My compliments on an absolutely brilliant answer.


        • cielo62 says:

          PirhanaMom- beautiful! Just goes to show that love is what it takes to make a family.

          Sent from my iPod

  22. colin black says:

    Trained Observer says:

    March 19, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    Firstest with the mostest? Love it.

    Ditto that thought………
    An considering Shellies intimite relation ship with the foggage one.
    Also throw in the fact that thanks to foggagges tenderness treatment.
    She is faceing serious criminal proceedings possable jail time an definate record on her CV as a convicted fellon…

    She is the keeper of the secrets whom has most to gain an also resentment for the disdain he showed whilst coaching her in a RECORDED phone call how to deceive an lie to courts .
    In order for HIM to obtain a low monetery bond from the sitting Judge Lester.

    An all he had to do on court day while his wife perjured herself lieing about the amount of cash available to there sticky fingers.
    He said naught an Shellie got caught.
    She is definetley the Hostess with the mostess regards the truth of the events that her husband stalked an murdered an innocent Child.

    Theorhetical Question.

    If the wife of Americas most hated man .
    Stands up for his VICTIM an does the right thing.
    Not for a deal or any kind of reward regarding her sentace for lieing before a court whilst under oath.

    But tells the truth simply because its the moral an right course os action.
    For any careing human with a consience whom knows the defendant is lieing.

    Would this make her not the least hated American but a person whom does the right thing..
    An someone whom would at least regain there own self esteem.
    Someone with no regard for there own self worth.Cannnot expect to receive respect from others.

    Once she recovers her own self will/ worth/independant thinking.
    Others may see the person behind the mug shot stoney faced stare we think we know her by.

    If done in the correct manner an not for wheedling out of jail time.If Shellie acts an puts Trayvon Family an Loved ones before the person that Murdered there Son Brother Freind an in Witt 8 Case Loved One First Love an in Trayvons case .
    His first an LAST love.

    If Shellie puts all those others feelings before her own well being.
    Then Im sure masses of Americans an Others World Wide would cut her some slack. m o o.

  23. Malisha says:

    Soon I expect the PTSD motion. One of the extra reasons Fogen will be suffering from PTSD will definitely be that Mr. Crump has been posting lies on the Internet! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!

    • willisnewton says:

      What would a “PTSD motion” look like?

      “Dear judge please excuse little Georgie from justice because he wasn’t feeling well when he lied to the police? “

      • Malisha says:

        I predict:

        Please give us a few more years before trial because Fogen-boy got very upset when he was violently attacked and terrified and thought he might die while he was being savagely beaten, and that qualifies as the kind of experience that causes PTSD. So then over the next few months he got PTSD and now it’s worser and worser and he’s just a wreck. See? So he can’t cooperate in his own defense; he’s a wreck. He has nightmares. And he doesn’t feel good. Because he almost died and all he was trying to do was protect his community. If you deny this it will be unfair and we’ll have to appeal.

        • racerrodig says:

          P.S. Fogen “lost” his passport and has been unable to take a much needed vacation what with that troublesome GPS on his ankle.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Can’t work, Malisha. Robert Jr. just reported that Fogen is “getting better.”

        • racerrodig says:

          “Robert Jr. just reported that Fogen is “getting better.”

          Better than what ?? Is he feeling better than snake shit….opps, he’s lower than snake shit….he’s better than……damn, I’m at a loss on that one.

      • Rachael says:

        ““Dear judge please excuse little Georgie from justice because he wasn’t feeling well when he lied to the police? “”

        Hahahahahaha I love it!!!

    • SoulSistaWoo says:

      You know Malisha, when you first spoke of Fogen using the PTSD motion for continuance… I CTHU.

      But sometimes in MOM statements, I seem to hear an undercurrent of the possibility of using mental instability as a tactic. when he talks about the weight gain, how fogen has to wear a vest and how stressed out he is in his mini prison… PTSD may not be a farfetched possibility.

    • Jun says:


      Team Fogen seems to operate on anything that can not be proven and ambiguous half truths

      Broken nose claims = no conclusive evidence

      Concrete head smash = load of crap only idiots believe and he has two 2cm superficial scratches that healed within a couple minutes the blood was already drying(I could be wrong on measurement, they are probably even smaller than that)

      Vicious Black Dynamite ass whoopin at the T point = all witnesses and forensic evidence state it all started and ended south of the T point

      Vicious Black Dynamite assault = no dna or forensic evidence it occurred and witness 6 either unsure of what he saw or coerced by defendant to lie

      Vicious Black Dynamite pin on his back = the bleeding from his 2 cm scratches, bled from the cuts downward toward his neck, so his head was upright when the bleeding occurred and there is no forensic evidence it was caused by the victim

      Using hospital stay as impeachment evidence = unproven and no evidence to back it up and witness’ testimony is supported by the defendant’s own statements, forensic evidence, and witness evidence and does not change anything that the defendant did

      league of black racists = still searching

      Claims on all government identification to be a white person, but now is suddenly alleging to be afro-peruvian = they are no Japanese, keep up

      Vicious history of Trayvon aka Black Dynamite = turned out to be dreamed up by the Conservative Tinfoil Hat and no evidence exists of such an occurence

      Marijuana smoking thugs = scientific research shows that marijuana makes people slow, happy, hungry and peaceful and victim had a low THC amount that could mean he smoked a month ago or it was second hand smoke

      Kid with Skittles is more of a threat than Wanna be cop with lengthy history of Violence stalking people with a gun = I am dying from laughter

      Crump said 16 and she may have been 18 = does not change anything


  24. willisnewton says:

    Regarding the hidden money and passport issues…. what intrigues me is the question of what Shellie and GZ told or didn’t tell GZ’s father and mother, who put up assets including their home as collateral to the bail bondsman. Either one of two things seems to have occurred: the father and/or mother knew of the hidden money and passport and willingly entered into the scheme or these facts were hidden from them.

    iIf it were the former, then they were part of a possible criminal conspiracy and might eventually be charged as accessories to the crime. If the latter, what must they have thought of their son that he would act in a manner that signals preparations for a flight from justice? IMO but for the judge’s order of a GPS monitoring device being physically placed onto the person of GZ, then he would have made bail and left jail with the means, motive and opportunity to flee justice with a fat bankroll, more on the way and a GOOD head start.

    Instead we have the tip of an iceberg with Shellie facing perjury charges. Who amongst this potential criminal conspiracy for structuring, etc might run to the authorities FIRST to receive an offer of immunity of some sort in exchange for testifying against the others? In other words, who would be the first rat to leave a sinking ship? Perhaps the mother, whom it was learned may have beaten young George as a boy, or the brother-in-law who is “family” but possibly has a greater chance of being convicted of money structuring due to his computer skills and the “paper trail” that would lead to him. What about GZ’s sister, who lent the use of her account but now stands to be accused herself of money structuring? WHomever gets there first-est with the most-est might remain free while the others face serious charges.

    All of this has to have crossed their minds. Will they hang together or will they hang one by one? Imagine the pressure to be the first to cut a deal.

    Of course all of this is speculation, but it is worth considering IMO.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Firstest with the mostest? Love it.

      Pure speculation discounts Mumsy and Pops for anything but whiny behavior and a lifetime of enabling their scumball son. Don’t know about bro-in-law. But since convicted felons can’t practice law, it does seem like Fogen’s sis faces a definite problem, given her taped jailhouse phone chat on how to shift the dough, and her apparent role in actually doing same. And how many of the RTW wits besides MMA John-boy will crumble on the stand under oath?

      Must be plenty of folks hoping Fogen finds a way to plead out.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      Sr. knew about it. At one point GZ’s “original” lawyers were at the bank with Sr. to set up an account that would be under his control for donations sent to Fogen.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Don’t doubt it. The rest of us knew. Seemingly the only one who didn’t know about the money flow at the first bond hearing was Lester and the court.

    • vickie s. votaw says:

      Regarding the hidden money and passport issues…. what intrigues me is the question of what Shellie and GZ told or didn’t tell GZ’s father and mother, who put up assets including their home as collateral to the bail bondsman. Either one of two things seems to have occurred: the father and/or mother knew of the hidden money and passport and willingly entered into the scheme or these facts were hidden from them.
      Maybe papa Z has getaway $$ hidden for him & mama already for years. He claims to be poor, but he had good jobs for years, where did all his resources go, I mean, besides bailing his offspring out .

      • Trained Observer says:

        Pops and Moms both have government pensions despite their poor-mouthing on their website. They could have known cash for the bond would be swapped out for their property. The passport saga , in my opinion, didn’t get enough attention from Judge Lester.

      • pat deadder says:

        And I think Omara lied like a rug when he said he forgot to turn in the passport.But I guess no one is allowed to question him about that.

      • looolooo says:

        I also haven’t forgotten about MOM’s passport lies. And there’s NO way he didn’t know about all the money fogster was recieving! Even I knew about it.

        Do we know if RZJ was involved in the money-transfereing scheme? If not, why? According to RZJ, he and his murdering/molesting lil’ bro are so close, aside from looking and sounding so much alike.

        Gosh I hope somebody looks into this family’s under-handed dealings! They truely need to be investigated.

        Welcome back Professor. Missed you, and was starting to worry.

    • SoulSistaWoo says:

      The entire crew of Zimmernuts seem to be a group of consciousless, arrogant people,with a great sense of entitlement and untouchability. IMO, they will ALL sink together.

      Has anyone looked into the Grandfather’s CIA connections. I think this is another connection that feeds their arrogance.

      • looolooo says:

        @SSWoo. Really? I didn’t know about any CIA connections! If true, that would explain alot.

        GZ’s molestation victim cousin definately DIDN’T LIE when she described the charater traits, viciousness, racism, and scociopathic ways of the Zimmerman kkklan!

        Gee….. I wonder if RZJ has also made it his lifes work to destroy and expose his molested cousin for the things she said about lonesome George? Or does he reserve all of his vitriol for balaacks…….not of Peruvian extraction? Just wondering.

  25. ay2z says:

    Depositions without fanfare, chugging right along for Shellie’s bonafide perjury lie.





  26. ay2z says:

    (Trivia: chain-jerker troll got his/her name post 27 times last night according to keyboard shortcut Option F ).

  27. Malamiyya says:

    Speaking as a lurker, creepytwins comes across as a chain-pulling concern troll. He’ll keep repeating the charge but never give you evidence, and chuckle while he’s doing it.

    • ay2z says:

      Doesn’t matter, it’s goal is creating distractions, annoyance, and most importantly, a time waster. Trolls are cute when they are made of cement and stand in gardens, no wait, those are elves.

    • Rachael says:

      He/she posts at the outhouse too.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Oh, I thought I’d read that name before. I thought I was replying to one of our own. Now I’m sorry for feeding the troll. Betcha creepy will be laughing over at Diwataman’s now, talking about baiting the Leatherheads.

        • Xena says:

          It’s classic Zidiot, bully behavior to throw a stone, miss, but go back to their gang and boast how they kicked ass.

          Once their IP address is banned, Word Press automatically sends subsequent comments into the spam queue where they are then also deleted by the Word Press program. Some months ago I read a comment by a Zidiot on Yahoo that they were submitting comments to a blog that never approved posting them. They called the blog admin a coward; unable to respond; have no answers; etc. The Zidiot apparently didn’t know that probably after reading the first comment, the blog’s admin placed their IP address in the queue to send their comments to spam, so they were never read.

  28. hwosonn says:

    Wow when it rains, it pours!! Times two!
    Can’t stand Toshiba products myself…….

  29. Jun says:

    Read for yourselves

    There’s nothing Omara can use from his BS motion to depose at trial

    And even if it were granted, Crump could simply say nothing at all

    Too bad so sad

  30. colin black says:

    Storm in a T cup
    Witt 8 She was Trayvons girlfreind as Jun says age an hospital visit non visit moot.

    Age She knew Trayvon grew up with him attended same junior an senior schools .
    Age would be more than likeley compatable if not same with in a month or so.
    Witt 8 was considered as was Trayvon when murder ocoured a minor.

    Now if Trayvon had not been executed at the hands of a callous freak he would by now no longer be a minor.
    He would be 18 as now is also the case with DD.

    aAn this is what there frothing at the mouthat .
    Do the math one year plus make her now 18 .
    Hospital fiasco same thing no records does not mean she lied an even if she did.

    How does that alter what phone records an testomony from her.
    Prove as an ear wittness.
    She is truthfull an accurate about an area she had never visited.
    And had no knowlage of the lay out Trayvon was relaying to her via his talk on the phone.

    All this is irefuteable.
    An that is the offence we are trying foggage for not wether something a teenage distraught girl another of foggages victims.
    May or may not have said or done weeks after the night of the murder.
    They have nothing an ther gathering a whole heap of more nothing.
    As the clock ticks down.
    An the State not only have enough to tip the scales of jutice copleatly to Trayvons side .
    As things stand stus quo at the momment.

    They have heap more evidence for forked toung foggagge one to face come judgement time.

  31. While I was a little worried about you guys, I thought you may have taken a little break. But I figured you’d log in for an update soon.

    But in the dark recesses of my mind I thought it might be possible that some GZidiots got hold of you and locked you in their basement.

    • Xena says:

      @Leroy Eugene Hudson to professor

      But in the dark recesses of my mind I thought it might be possible that some GZidiots got hold of you and locked you in their basement.

      I don’t think that trailers sitting on bricks have basements. Treehouses certainly don’t. 🙂

      • whonoze says:

        I live in a mobile home, and I belong to a non-political (but decidedly NON-conservative) Facebook group called The Treehouse…. (Shhh, don’t tell Bill Taylor!)

    • Rachael says:

      I was actually kinda worried about that too. There are some really crazy people out there!

  32. Mary Davis says:

    Good to see you back professor. Glad it was your computer and nothing else.

  33. ay2z says:

    Someone out for a troll tonight?

  34. colin black says:

    Foggagge One felt he was minutes away from dieperDOM..
    Could be true who knows what consenting adults indulge in behind closed doors.

    Ive read that a lot of losers an even sucsessfull grown men.
    Get a kick out of wearing what you call diepers an we call nappys.
    So who knows what foggagge had on the agendda with his Shellie he treated her with tenderness

    When he arrived home an could pass a voice stress test easly an truthfully by stateing I was minutes or momments awaway from wearing diepers.

    What he leaves out is lieing by omission.
    By failing to add .
    As every Sunday me an the Wife always indulge in Mommy Big Bouncy Baby Time goo goo ga ga I have my own pacifier /dummy an every thing.

    An I never made it home for mommy baby time that night as the Somethins up with him up to no goog hand in his waist band button wearing suspect ran.

    An then for some unknown reason ?
    E S P foggage has kinnnda sugested that perhaps he was so enraged as he knew by ossmossis what foggage was doing thinking an whom he was talking to on the phone Sean about him being up to no good ya de da de da da.

    An so enraged at his sence of telepathy had shown him he morphed like one of those power ranger dudes.
    But into evil nijja kick ass dude.

    Or perhaps foggage was lieing when he said he was looking for an un asked for un used address wich would be no where near any thing or any one even if he had told Sean right tIve walked through the T cant see him he ran.
    An Im standing opposite number xyze on RVC .


    Sean would then say so why are you giveing me some random adress of a street where your not going to meet officers.
    But now are retutning to your truck wich you have no idea where its parked.

    Excuse me sir an this may cost me my job.
    But are you pulling my leg or are you a fucking moron?

    Of course we might be cynical an take the veiw that when the foggage one flew out of his truck saying shit he is running.
    He was in fact engageing in persuit of Trayvon.
    And not going as he mentioned the next day.
    Just coincidently happened to have silently decided with in his head to call of the persuit an head of on an adress hunt.

    An the words he uttered at the same time shit he s running must be cancelled out by the inner narrative he is haveing with in with him self.
    No one but he can hear this inner narative this allternative quest foggage has assigne d him self for it is silent fireing within his inner nurones sparking moronic actions with in only his ken.

    An we have only his spoken verbage to guide us as to his intentions motive.
    A true cynic may even suggest this search for an unasked unused unwanted adress was nothing but an absurd self serveing abberation of pure an utter balderdash an tosh.

    An I would concour with those fellows opine.

    His claim to exploding head a sydrome thats actually quite commom with a high persentage of the Human Popullation
    How ever we are not the only type of apes that suffer from this occurance.
    Im quite amused when reading about this syndrome on wiki wich I know its wiki .
    But Ive read other material on this condition because it happens to me .
    An it used to frighten the beejeezus out of me especialy as a child.

    Always when I was over tired you know when you are so exhausted the minute youclose your eyes you begin to drift of.
    An then Bang best I can explain it is like an explosion eminating from within your head an also within your ear as if two huge books slammed together an sometimes a huge jerk go through your entire body an jerks you awake instantly.
    You body get a fright via your brain an floods adrenallin through out your system.

    There are Baboons whom live on a platoue in Africas Serringetti as there are no trees for them to sleep in.
    They clamber over thease sheer cliffs thousands of feet high.
    An I meen sheer drops but they have adapted an are agile an brilliant climbers an manage to thrive liveing an sleeping on the cliffs at night compleatly safe from predeters.

    Thing is if you watch them both adults an babys can have this similar jerk reaction when they are falling asleep
    Its been most commonly observed with chimpanzes sleeping in trees.

    Same thing falling asleep an sudenly they jerk sometimes screech look around as if someones attacked or shoved them.
    An I think there haveing the exact same explodeing head thing I an other humans experiance.

    An it a result of evoulution an our common ancestry with simmians an apes ect .
    Back tot he days when our distant ancestors slept in trees.
    As some sort of defence mechinisim some how the brain can get alarmed.
    When it feels senses that we are falling asleep to fast an perhaps in an inapropriate place position or manner.
    Could be something to do with the iner ear equlibrium thingy its likke grains telling us wich way is up ect.
    A study showed that 70 percent of Russian astronauts experienced exploding head syndrome.

    So in conclusion I think its a saftey mechinism to jolt us awake suddenly an keep us awake untill we are able to re position our selfs into a safer branch ect.
    That has continued onto even some modern relatives whom no longer live in trees or cliffs .
    But our brains still wired with that primitive reflex to jolt us awake.
    Any way this is what the alleged expert seem to know about exploding head syndrome.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Colin — Am quite simply at a loss for words … , other than to say it was highly amusing to hear the missus call Fogen “cutie” on the jailhouse phone tapes.

      If Mrs. Fogen goes to trial, rather than turn, she may not think he’s so cute when the prison door slams on her diaperless butt after sentencing.

      • ay2z says:

        About Mr.s fogen, she’s done this to herself, but the lawyer sis’ was there helping her brother, transferring funds to her own account for his use, but she’s free and clear. They set the wife in to do the nasty work and risk her own future.

        • Xena says:

          They set the wife in to do the nasty work and risk her own future.

          Because ShelLIE testified. She also covered the brother-in-law’s butt by saying he wasn’t there. That can also be seen as evasive, like people who come to court swearing up and down that they paid their bill, but left the receipts at home. As Judge Judy would say, “Where did you think you were coming today?”

      • Jun says:

        Technically, according to Florida’s statute for structuring, they can go after the brother and the sister, because the law states that anyone making transactions of currency in amounts less than 10K in order to try to hide it from the detection system, is guilty of structuring

        (1) DEFINITIONS.—For purposes of this section, the terms “structure” or “structuring” mean that a person, acting alone, or in conjunction with, or on behalf of, other persons, conducts or attempts to conduct one or more transactions in currency, in any amount, at one or more financial institutions, on one or more days, in any manner, for the purpose of evading currency transaction reporting requirements provided by state or federal law.

        They were attempting to hide US currency of an amount of over $130,000

        So sis and brother better watch themselves, because if the state or the feds wanted to push it, they can live with Fogen in prison

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Maybe the plan was to get together with the Ostermans for a happy diaper party?

    • PiranhaMom says:


      I get it Colin – here we say “I woke up with a jerk.”

      Shellie Zimmerman, as an example, frequently says that.

      No perjury, either.

      • Malisha says:

        LOL PiranhaMom! But nowadays she may not be waking up with a jerk — we really do not know.

        One never knows, do one? [To quote Fats Waller, whom I often quote]

  35. creepytwins says:

    Mr. Crump damaged this case so much with his lies. Anyone looking for true justice for Trayvon should be sickened by this man. Crump was more interested in civil litigation than he was in criminal prosecution. He did not keep his eyes on the ball. The judge could rule (again) that Crump is opposing counsel. But considering the Crump tape, the ABC recording ans the live interviews, it’s hard to believe that an appellate court will be friendly.

    No wonder Crump got himself a competent lawyer. He needs one.

    • Jun says:

      I do not see where Crump lied, but please show us, like actual proof.

      • creepytwins says:

        You should look again. Crump is a major problem, and if you don’t see that, you must be ignoring evidence.

        He gave press conferences saying DD was a minor. He said that she went to the hospital when she didn’t. He lied about stopping the recording of DD’s interview. There’s a reason why the defense wants to depose him. Crump lied. It’s easily provable.

        The alternative is that DD lied to him (multiple times). That’s far worse for Trayvon’s family. They should throw Crump under the bus is the name of justice.

      • Jun says:

        The age thing – It is a minor and moot issue and sounds like a misunderstanding. I still have not seen proof of her age, so until I see her age for real, I will reserve judgement on that issue.

        The hospital thing – It is another minor and moot issue. He did not lie, as he did not have firsthand knowledge of the issue, and he was going by his interview of DD, and there still has not been conclusive proof of these allegations of these lies. In the recording and in the state’s, there were never any specifications on exact dates that she did not feel well or went to the hospital. The problem can be easily solved by deposing witness 8, and then straight from her mouth, the source, can be heard about the truth of the matter.

        I think you’re being bloodclot foolish, because you presented no proof whatsoever of Crump lying. The age thing is ridiculous because you nor I have conclusive proof of her age and there is the fact that Crump could have simply misunderstood her age to be 16 instead of 18. It is not material and is nonsense. The hospital thing, Crump’s only knowledge is from his interview, so I do not see how he lied there. He thought she went to the hospital, and until they actually talk to witness 8, and instead of relying on hearsay and multitude of third parties, there is no proof. Why does the defense not just depose witness 8, and ask her straight off, regarding the hospital records? Besides that, the issue is not material to the case at hand.

      • creepytwins says:


        You’re saying that it doesn’t matter that Crump lied multiple times. Or you’re at least trying to explain his lies.

        DeeDee’s account of events is important. It’s the only testimony that contradicts the fogen’s story. She is important. Crump makes her not credible.She was not minor and she didn’t go to the hospital. Yet Crump pushed that narrative hard. And he talked to DD before the police and may have coached her.

        Prediction: Fogen will walk and Crump will have helped that happen.

        I hope I’m wrong.

        • Xena says:

          @creepytwins. Tell us what Attorney Crump lied about. Support it with links, transcripts, videos.

          It is God’s plan that GZ spend the rest of his life in prison. GZ said so because he said it was God’s plan for him to kill Trayvon. He called that prophecy upon himself.

        • PiranhaMom says:


          No, Creepy, we’re NOT saying “it doesn’t matter if…” (as you claim) Benjamin Crump “lied.”

          Whate we ARE saying is: tell us these lies you are talking about.





          Why the hell would be believe you if you can’t give us prooof? Don’t side-step this by being cute.

        • PiranhaMom says:


          No, Creepy, we are NOT saying “it doesn’t matter” if, as you claim, Benjamin Crump “lied.”

          What we are saying is “WHY THE HELL SHOULD WE BELIEVE YOU???”

          We are saying, “Give us actual quotes, on actual dates, at actual locations – and verification that WE can check,” independent of your “claims.”

          I think you are just trying to toss a sabot into th works, to rile folks up, so you can feel important.

          To prove you are not a worthless jerk, back up your claims.

        • cielo62 says:

          Creepy twins- that is the biggest load of manure I have seen today! And with here in Se Texas there’s lots of manure being slung around! So, the NEN call means nothing? The forensics? The ballistics? The eye witnesses? Once again: CRUMP IS NOT OSRT OF THIS CASE. Sent from my iPod

      • Jun says:

        Dude, again you are being bloodclot foolish

        Deedee is not the only person who contradicts Fogen’s story

        There’s a mountain of evidence that contradicts Fogen’s story and claims

        Fogen himself contradicts his claims

        Even if for the sake of argument, we were to say that Crump lied about the age and the hospital thing, along with Deedee, neither issue is material or relevant to the case, therefore, it does not matter


        Forensic evidence places her on the phone with Trayvon during this incident, and that is undeniable

        Forensics and Witnesses support her testimony, therefore making her testimony credible

        Lastly, I am not explaining away lies

        Lies are with intent

        The age thing, to make a mountain out of that is ridiculous because realistically speaking, you do not have proof of her actual age, and it is a moot issue, a pretended controversy

        I am being realistic because he may have honestly thought she was 16, and until we hear straight from her mouth with her identification, showing otherwise, you can not claim that it was a lie, which is why the state and the judge repeatedly tell the defense to depose her and get the information from the source

        The hospital thing is even more ridiculous because, like I said, she never specified when she had to go to the hospital. All I heard in that interview is she was feeling too ill to go to the wake, and ended up at the hospital. In her interview with the state, she stated she went to the hospital or somewhere, and if you do not believe me, open up your bloodclot ears, and listen to the whole state interview of her word for word, because, that is what she said happened, she ended up at the hospital or somewhere and it could all be concluded by simply talking to witness 8 about her medical stay. For all we know, she could simply be refusing to give out her personal information to the defense, and that is why the state said there were never records for them to obtain. Why not just depose witness 8 and get it over with?

        You’ve obviously been brainwashed by the Zidiots with this bloodclot nonsense

        • dianetrotter says:

          I think Xena was addressing what DeeDee said. Is it not correct that she was asked “Did you go to the hospital or somewhere?” DeeDee’s answer was “Yes.” Perhaps her yes was to “somewhere.” If she is deposed, that would be a great time to get clarification.

          • Xena says:

            IIRC, it was the professor who addressed how DeeDee answered BDLR’s question. I addressed what SA Guy said in court. He said the witness was opposed to the defense having her medical records, and that there are no hospital records. DeeDee may have gone to the ER and was stabilized, without being admitted to the hospital.

            I mean, folks can play with semantics that are not really intended to be semantics because while hospital records might be included in medical records, medical records are not included in hospital records. Some folks have medical records and have never spent a day in the hospital.

            Why DeeDee did not attend the wake is really none of O’Mara’s business. It doesn’t prove that GZ killed in self-defense.

        • PiranhaMom says:


          Why in the word does it matter to ANYBODY what
          “DeeDee” did in her personal life at ANY point AFTER February 26, 2012?

          Did she go to the hospital? Would that have impacted Trayvon’s killing?

          Did she see a doctor? Would that have impacted Trayvon’s killing?

          Did she go to a clinic? Would that have impacted Trayvon’s killing?

          Did she go to a nurse? Would that have impacted Trayvon’s killing?

          Did she go to a friend who had a blood pressure machine? Would that have impacted Trayvon’s killing?

          Was there a reason she did not attend Trayvon’s wake? Who are we to ask such a deeply personal question?

          Who is ANYONE to ask such a personal question?

          Would her attendance or non-attendance at any event AFTER Trayvon’s killing have any impact on that killing – like, prevent it?

          Did their two telephones connect together the night of Trayvon’s killing? Were Trayvon and “DeeDee” the two individuals on those phones? To what was “DeeDee” an ear-witness?

          NOT what she may have done, days later, after Zimmerman had ALREADY KILLED Trayvon.

          She sounded like a soft-spokem, shy young person on the tapes. If anybody hassles her about what she did or did not do DAYS LATER, AFTER Trayvon was murdered — my heart would leap if I heard her say, “Fuck off, Buddy!” But – she’s a lovely young lady, polite, and I know she won’t say that.

          But — she’s entitled!

      • ks says:


        You are really bsing hard tonight. DD is not the only testimonsy that will contradiction GZ. His own statements, the forensic and timeline testimony will as well. How does Crump not make DD credible? Nonsense. The phone records back up DD’s story. The minor and hospital sideshow is just that a sideshow.

        Again, the defense wants to depose Crump INSTEAD OF DEPOSING w8 to play to GZ’s gullible supporters and, apparently, fokls like you.

      • Jun says:


        You’re a bloodclot idiot, I do not know how else to put it

        I never wrote that Crump lied nor did I say anything with it being okay to be deceptive

        I stated that there was no proof of any lying, and that is the truth of the matter asserted

        As for the age issue, unless you can find evidence that Crump specifically knew she was 18, and then specifically told the public, without misspeaking or typo, that she was a different age, then you have no proof of any lies regarding that issue

        As for the hospital thing, again, unless Crump had firsthand knowledge of her not going to the hospital at whatever time (since no time was specified) or that he had first hand knowledge that she was too ill to go to the wake (he does not have this knowledge), all he can do is present what was told to him through his interview, therefore, there is no lie on Crump’s part

      • Jun says:


        I agree with your assertion

        I was just replying as to the allegation that Crump lied, and that there is no proof he lied

        I am guessing Omara is somewhat successful in trying to divert the attention and issue and my guess is the state and the lawyer for w8 will shut that down real fast and get to the real issue at hand, which is the murder

        Anyways, I do not feel this motion’s agenda will end up being admissible for trial anyways because the information and assumed facts alleged are based on ambiguity

      • creepytwins says:

        I just don’t get why anyone would be defending Mr. Crump, regardless of how you feel about this case. If he was a good lawyer, he would have encouraged Dee Dee to go to the police IMMEDIATELY after learning of her existence.Instead he decided to question her himself, starting and stopping the tape (sketchy?) during the interview. Then he went on the news and claimed that she was a minor who was so distraught that she went to the hospital. Never mind the minor fibs, such as Chad being Trayvon’s brother. Mr. Crump is a sketchy sketchball who wouldn’t know the truth if was dropped on his head. His mere presence in this case hurts the prosecution. The Martin family would be wise to find different counsel for their legal needs.

        • cielo62 says:

          creepytwins~ you’re kidding, right? Go to the police that was actively shutting people down, not taking stories, changing people’s perceptions of the scene, leave her vulnerable to filth like the CTH racists? He protected a valuable and vulnerable witness FROM the cops who were dead set to drop the case. I can’t believe you wrote this.

        • dianetrotter says:

          Why would Crump or DeeDee think the police could be trusted. GZ was already walking around free. Historically, Black people have had a reason to distrust the police. This is a glaring example of why the distrust exists.

        • I disagree with your opinion about Crump. Under the circumstances, I believe he acted properly and caused no harm to the prosecution case.

          Hell, he even arranged to have multiple witnesses present, including an ABC reporter who made his own recording.

          Given the early efforts by police to disappear this case, Crump would have been irresponsible to have sent Dee Dee to the SPD.

          None of your points are valid.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “Given the early efforts by police to disappear this case…”

            To which specific efforts do you refer?


          • dianetrotter says:

            How about not arresting GZ and then investigating? How about not doing a drug/alcohol test? How about leading a witness to say GZ was the one screaming? How about not pursuing Serino’s charges? I’m not an attorney but I read a lot and watch a lot of police/detective shows.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “How about not arresting GZ and then investigating? How about not doing a drug/alcohol test?”

            The immunity provision of Florida’s Justifiably Use of Force law (which is an entirely separate provision from that law’s so-called Stand Your Ground provision) prevents an arrest if until and unless a self-defense claim can be disproven. They didn’t have enough that night to disprove it.

            Without an arrest, they had no legal grounds to do the drug/alcohol tests.

            Although I admit that on the NEN call I was expecting him to say “Dave’s not here” at some point.


          • dianetrotter says:

            It looks like SYG lets people get away with murder. It’s possible to kill someone and leave the country with no fear.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “It looks like SYG lets people get away with murder. It’s possible to kill someone and leave the country with no fear.”

            “SYG” itself is just an extension of the castle doctrine and removes the duty to retreat if you’re somewhere that you have a right to be.


          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yeah, isn’t this great? Remember how the Mafia used to send to Sicily for hit men? They’d fly here, kill a few people, get paid and leave. Now they’d have SYG to ensure that they can get back home. Wealthy people whose heirs and successors had better start buying bulletproof underwear. Since anyone who kills them, for whatever reason, is guaranteed by SYG to have an unstoppable escape. Looks like the legislatures of some 28 states didn’t bother to think. Perhaps they couldn’t!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            FABULOUS!!! You’re saying that the SYG law makes it impossible to drug test killers who say they killed in self defense? Wow, what a wonderful law. All a killer needs do is make a self defense claim and poof, the right to access important materials for testing is gone!

            The Florida legislature really, really, really needs to rethink this stupidity. Next up! Drunken drivers plead self defense, thus cannot be tested for DUI, until the police can disprove the claim.

            This law is going to be a very big help to public safety… NOT! People will be dropping like flies in SYG states.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            I’m saying that the immunity provision of the Florida Justifiable Use of Force law (which is a separate provision from the provision that is sometimes referred to as the Stand Your Ground provision) keeps them from arresting someone who claims self-defense unless they have something to call into question that claim of self-defense.

            I didn’t write it, I’m just telling you what it says.


          • dianetrotter says:

            The neighbor saying that the kid was screaming is probably the very first clue.

          • The police could have asked him to voluntarily submit to a blood draw.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “The police could have asked him to voluntarily submit to a blood draw.”

            Although I was busy not being the person who wrote the immunity provision of Florida’s Justifiable Use of Force law (which I suspect came from the pen of ALEC), I did manage to find the time to not be consulted by the Sanford PD on whether to ask him to do that.


          • dianetrotter says:

            So you think it might have been nice to ask him for a blood draw?

          • racerrodig says:

            Yep, finding anything out and ruining that “…squeaky clean..” reputation would be just so unfair. See, you pointed out things that all of us normal people fully recognize and understand, from last year, Zidiot’s…………’eh, not so much. Don’t feed the trolls.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            2X on that Professor, we’ve had to read all week long the reiteration of those same points.

      • Jun says:

        1) Sometimes witnesses in instances of violent crimes are afraid to come forward. It happens all the time at police stations across the country. It still does not change the fact, the records show that she was on the phone with Trayvon during the incident. This was her story since the beginning that she was afraid to come forward.

        2) The cellphone that was used by Trayvon, was found, dropped down near his body, therefore, it is proof he had the phone till he was killed, which supports the testimony of her being on the phone with Trayvon. The phone records would have connection times.

        3) The GPS records support her testimony, the forensics support her testimony, and the witnesses support her testimony. All of this also contradicts the defendant’s testimony. This also supports the w8’s testimony. Her testimony matches the evidence, while the defendant’s testimony after he killed the kid, does not match the evidence on scene.

        4) Until I hear it straight from her mouth, and see actual evidence, and not just gossip coming from the defense, then I will agree that she lied about the hospital issue. But even then, Omara can not use that during trial, as it will get objected, as I do not believe it is admissible anyways, especially at this point, when it is really ambiguous and her testimony is rehabilitated by the on scene evidence. Besides, it is irrelevant and moot.

        5) Even if you want to believe Crump lied or is unethical, he is not a party to the case, and he is not a witness to anything. It is the state of Florida vs George Zimmerman. Each witness and piece of evidence can only represent itself, and the state can only represent itself. Crump has no effect whatsoever on the murder trial, as he has no authority for any sanctions on indictment, whatsoever. There’s nothing he can testify to. Omara asked him about the w8 interview, and the affidavit covers what he observed.

        6) Whether or not Crump or Deedee lied, as you claim, it does not change the defendant’s lies, schemes, forensic evidence, or any of the other witness testimonies, the NEN call, the 911 calls, etc.

        7) I feel you are sketchy. You make wild accusations with no evidence and no logic and many things can be easily explained away, instead of your wild conspiracy theories. Tinfoil is on sale right now, so you can buy a load, and make yourself some fancy hats.

      • @creepytwins,you says ;” Prediction: Fogen will walk and Crump will have helped that happen.

        I hope I’m wrong.
        No,you are wishing a child killer get away with murder!

        Reality is the child killer belongs to the Department of Correction
        and will be handle to the DOJ for killing an unarmed minor that was committing NO crime!

      • towerflower says:

        Creepy, Most have replied to you but you still fail to see their logic. Crump did not tamper with the witness by questioning her before law enforcement. The question should be why didn’t the PD find her first. They could have used the same method that Tracy Martin did, going to Trayvon’s service provided to see a list of calls. They never did it.

        If MOM and his team of investigators went door to door and found an, unknown to the police, witness that might support fogen’s story and they talked to them and convinced them to come forward would their conversations with the person considered witness tampering? NO. If their conversations with the “witness” went over the events, without police being present, to find out if they had a story to tell by questioning them and asking them pertinent questions are they then coaching them? NO. They would be doing their job for their client. It is not uncommon for an attorney/employees to go out and search for additional witnesses, maybe someone who was initially afraid to come forward but after talking to an investigator will, is that witness tampering? NO. You really need to look at the definition of what witness tampering is. Just because Crump talked to Wit. 8 before the PD doesn’t fall into that category. Just because Crump found her first and talked to her first, it doesn’t fall into that category.

        You don’t mention how the PD tampered with witnesses by feeding them information (possibly incorrect information). Like with the boy who was led to say that the color he saw was red or the other witness that was told that the person screaming was not the one who had been shot. Could they be guilty of tampering or coaching a witness?

        Like others said before, it is no surprise that they didn’t turn over Wit. 8 to the Sanford PD but instead to the higher authorities (FBI). The family had been stonewalled by the PD, they had to file a motion to compel the PD to release the NEN and 911 calls…calls that fall under the Sunshine law and never should have been sealed by the PD.

        Why is it important to know if DeeDee went to the wake or funeral? What does that have to do with anything that night and what she heard? So what if she didn’t go attend the wake or funeral, people handle grief in different ways, any expert will tell you that. It doesn’t mean she didn’t care for her friend. Her silence in the beginning didn’t mean she didn’t care, many people have a fear to become involved and considering how some have gone after others, she has a right to be afraid.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        “The question should be why didn’t the PD find her first.”

        Amen. Creepy, I think you’re getting too wound up in Fogenite rhetoric. It will come out in the wash as to whether Crump lied or not. The age and hospital thing may have come from DD herself. We’ll just have to wait and see. We may never know.

      • Big Willie says:

        @ creepytwins

        Please go watch this video and you’ll see which attorney will probably be arrested in the courtroom.

    • Xena says:


      But considering the Crump tape, the ABC recording ans the live interviews, it’s hard to believe that an appellate court will be friendly.

      Highly unlikely. All along it’s been my impression that Crump’s recording will not be admitted into evidence because the State has it’s own interview. Crump is not a party to the case. GZ is the one awaiting trial. He is the accused murderer and admitted killer of Trayvon Martin. Nothing in any of DeeDee’s interviews provides a defense for GZ.

      No wonder Crump got himself a competent lawyer. He needs one.

      Bet GZ wishes he had competent lawyers too.

      • creepytwins says:

        Crump will be disbarred if he lied. And let’s be clear. Crump harmed the case against the Fogens. He is a liability. There’s a reason why the defense wants to depose him and a reason why Crump is fighting it. You can not suborn perjury or coach a witness before she’s spoken to police. He IS a party to the case.

        He is a MAJOR problem.

        • Xena says:


          Crump will be disbarred if he lied.

          HA! First there’s the “if” then there’s the Bar. IF he lied when he is not representing the defendant neither the State, who has standing to bring a complaint before the Bar?

          And let’s be clear. Crump harmed the case against the Fogens. He is a liability.

          GZ is represented by O’Mara and West. If there is any harm against GZ, it’s by his own actions on 2/26/12 and by his own legal team.

          There’s a reason why the defense wants to depose him and a reason why Crump is fighting it.

          Sure is. The ZImmerman wasp nest has been hawking about “Uncle Ben” since GZ was arrested. It’s personal to them. How dare a Black man who isn’t as articulate as President Obama show courage and power!! As far as fighting against being deposed — well, don’t you fight against things that are unjust? Or, do you think attorney Crump is suppose to shuffle to Zidiot demands?

          You can not suborn perjury or coach a witness before she’s spoken to police.

          To repeat a Junior mantra, were you there? Also, when attorney Crump interviewed DeeDee, Lee and Wolfinger had refused to arrest GZ so there was no speaking to police seen in the future.

          He IS a party to the case.

          Nope. The caption of the case is The State of Florida vs. George M. Zimmerman.

          He is a MAJOR problem.

          Only to bigoted racists.

        • Absurd nonsense.

          Consider yourself banned.

      • Jun says:

        Again, you present no proof of any Crump lying.

        You claim he coached DD, yet you provide absolutely no proof of such an occurrence.

        And how exactly, does this hurt the murder charge?

        Crump was not there nor was a witness to anything, and he is not required, nor is Deedee required to be material for a case at hand

      • creepytwins says:

        You’re right Xena and jun… The defense must prove that Crump lied. But like I wrote, either Crump or DD lied. Which one is it?

        • Xena says:


          You’re right Xena and jun… The defense must prove that Crump lied. But like I wrote, either Crump or DD lied. Which one is it?

          You are misrepresenting our words. The defense has to defend GZ — PERIOD. And now that we know a liar is alleging that Crump is a liar, you are dismissed for lack of credibility.

        • Nobody cares because this is a non-issue.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Professor Fred

            Re: “Nobody cares because this is a non-issue”


            Thanks, Fred!

      • Jun says:

        1) You’d have to prove there was a lie and intent. There is none of this available.

        2) You have been fooled by the sleight of hand trick because none of this sideshow stuff means anything at trial. I may not be a lawyer but having done my own research into American Law, I can say that it is moot, a pretended controversy.

        This can all be solved by going straight to the source, witness 8, and figuring out all the confusion over the moot issue, which even if it was concluded or not, has no practical importance in the murder trial, especially since it is moot. Crump is not a party or a witness to the incident and is merely the victim’s family lawyer. Crump can only attest to his translation of his interview, of what is not privileged information. Witness 8 can only represent herself and the testimony of hers. Crump can not present her testimony for her, nor can the state, as that is what is the basis for hearsay.

        The main factor in your bloodclot nonsense, is you are assuming there was a lie, by using hearsay.

        They should just depose witness 8 and then get this nonsense excuse to delay trial and get on with business

      • creepytwins says:


        Here’s the problem. The defense is asking (again) to depose Mr. Crump because he claimed in his affidavit that nothing significant was discussed when he paused the recording. And now that we’ve heard some of the ABC tape, we know that is not the case. I know you think it’s insignificant, but it shows that he was coaching a witness (the key witness) before she had even spoken to the police. I’m not sure what ethical world you live in, but tampering with witnesses and suborning perjury is wrong.

        Not was bad as murder, of course, but still illegal and unethical. We can agree on that, can’t we?

        • cielo62 says:

          creepytwins~ maybe your world has a different tape as well. I didn’t hear anything that could be construed as witness tampering. Certainly NOTHING like what the Sanford cops did with the on the scene eye witnesses.

        • dianetrotter says:

          Good attorneys are skilled at grilling witnesses. All O’Mara has to do is depose DeeDee. He can ask questions in a way that will trip her up if she is lying. Either she was on the phone with TM or not. Cellphone records will prove or disprove that. The convo may have little, if any, significance.

        • Nothing illegal or unethical happened.

        • Xena says:


          Here’s the problem. The defense is asking (again) to depose Mr. Crump because he claimed in his affidavit that nothing significant was discussed when he paused the recording. And now that we’ve heard some of the ABC tape, we know that is not the case.

          Who are the “we” you refer to who claims to know that what Attorney Crump said during pauses is significant? Did O’Mara include a transcript of the ABC recording with his motion to reconsider and point out to the court what attorney Crump said during pauses that is significant?

          … but it shows that he was coaching a witness (the key witness) before she had even spoken to the police.

          No it does not. When Attorney Crump interviewed DeeDee, Wolfinger and Lee had already said they were not arresting GZ. Why should anyone talk to the police who have refused to arrest a killer based on the killer’s words alone?

          I’m not sure what ethical world you live in, but tampering with witnesses and suborning perjury is wrong.

          I live in a world that knows the difference between unsupported allegations of witness tampering and actual witness tampering. Apparently, you don’t.

          Not was bad as murder, of course, but still illegal and unethical. We can agree on that, can’t we?

          No, we cannot.

      • Jun says:

        On the ABC tape, the conversation is exactly the same, as on his recording device

        ABC was there as a witness to everything


        You’re being retarded (this means you are holding everything back)

        It’s a moot issue

        But like we have said, show us, your allegations where everything is different and there are secret conversations, and the tapes are from an authenticated source

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “On the ABC tape, the conversation is exactly the same, as on his recording device”

          The recently released ABC recording includes a part recorded when Crump’s recorder was paused or off, therefore that part is not on his recording.


      • creepytwins says:


        No need to throw slurs around. I know you have strong feelings about this case. But that doesn’t excuse your insulting language. If you you want to accuse someone of being “retarded” (your word) and “holding things back”, perhaps you should look in the mirror. The ABC tape is documented PROOF that there was substantive information discussed during pauses in Crump’s recording. He wasn’t simply failing to record dead air. Heck, he can be heard telling Dee Dee what is important and even counting down to tell her when to start talking again. Mr. Crump was coaching the witness. And all of this happened without law enforcement present.

        Tell me, did you even read MOM’s motion to reconsider?

      • Creepytwins

        Crump will be disbarred if he lied. And let’s be clear. Crump harmed the case against the Fogens

        Please! Go push that garbage at the CTH. Zimmerman did the damage to Zimmerman when he profiled, stalked, chased and gunned down an unarmed innocent kid carrying candy & a drink.

        Benjamin Crump will not de disbarred.
        DeeDee didn’t lie about anything.
        The Martins will not get rid of Benjamin Crump
        DeeDee’s statement is not going anywhere


        George Zimmerman is going to stand trial for 2nd degree murder.

      • creepytwins says:


        You assume that because I question Mr. Crump’s credibility, I am a fan boy for the fogen. That’s simply not true. I am simply looking for the truth. I remember the exact moment I became interested in this case. Initially, I accepted the story that a white man shot and killed a black boy and was trying to claim self defense. I saw the pictures of Trayvon and felt sorry for his family; I still do. But when I first saw a picture of fogen, I became curious. You see, he isn’t white in the traditional sense. He is clearly Latino.

        At that moment, I started following the case. I’ve read everything from all sides. But I don’t have a dog in this fight. Thankfully, my son wasn’t killed and no one I care about is being charged with 2nd degree murder. I am simply following the case. And at this point, my view is that fogen is a wanna be tough guy who made some stupid decisions on that night. But I also see

      • pat deadder says:

        I heard BDLR say in court to Omara and the judge that Omara has known DeeDee’s date of birth for a long time.I don’t know what Mr Crump said but if he said she was 16 it had to be what he truly believed since he knew her age would be on record eventually.I feel sorry for DeeDee I think it took a lot of convincing by even people on TM team for her to say anything.One thing I am curious about did DeeDee’s interview take place before the PD released the phone calls of fogen and other witnesses.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        When I listened to the recording, I can only hear Crump having W8 repeat some things to make sure he has these on tape. That’s a far cry from coaching. Again, I think Fogenite logic is catching up to you.

      • Jun says:

        retarded is not a slur

        it means to hold back

        and you are holding back the issue

        therefore you are being retarded

      • Jun says:

        The ABC tape pretty much just captured Crump, telling her to hold on

        so yada yada, no proof of anything, just accusations

    • Jun says:

      Crump is the attorney for the family of the victim

      He is obviously not on the same side as Omara, therefore, he is opposing counsel

      • Xena says:

        @Jun. One has to really wonder why the defense does not want to depose Witness 8. What are they afraid of? Does she have a lawyer that they fear? Or, are they too ashamed to face a girl whose friend was killed by the person they are defending?

      • Jun says:

        I think it is so they can keep this nonsense ruse, since nothing is clarified

        Their whole game is based on maybes, and perhaps’

      • Tzar says:

        The nutters are too stupid to be taken seriously
        Their casual racism combined with their lack of analytical ability makes for fodder so bizarre and quaint that they become entertaining.

        this whole casuistry, about what happened while the recorder was off, is essentially saying that their lack of proof is proof of deceit. There were other people in the room, why not depose them and they can tell you what Crump said while the tape was off; that is if that is really what they are after.

        the focus on Crump is just race baiting for the many reasons you all can think of.

      • towerflower says:

        Xena, I’ve wondered the same thing. It’s like they keep trying to get in a locked back door when the front door has always been open. Why don’t they just depose her and ask her what Crump said, ask her how they all found her. No instead they go after the parents and Crump.

        I have always found the assumption that Crump coached her during the interview as funny, after all he brought the news with him. Do some really believe that he would coach/led/feed information to a witness in front of a news agency? Could you imagine the scoop of a headline for that?

      • Malisha says:

        The issue that some proFogenites have with Crump is that he led the legal team that made Corey see that she had to preside over an actual valid investigation of a real crime. They really want to HURT HIM because of that. I’m not worried about this. In cases where there is no public outrage about the victimization of someone considered “disposable,” ALL the helpers are hurt UNLESS there is press. Once there is press, the helpers are not vulnerable to just being picked off.

        Let’s face it: this crime would have gone uncharged during the period of time when “the law” in the South did not have to count “Negroes” as real citizens. It also would have gone uncharged in 2012 if the press had not reported on Sharpton’s, Jackson’s, Crump’s and others’ efforts to bring this to the attention of people like ourselves.

    • kllypyn says:

      Crump, hasn’t lied about anything. He is not the prosecutor moron he represents Trayvon’s. You should be asking about zimmerpunks lies.

      • creepytwins says:

        Really? You’re saying that Crump hasn’t lied? So you must accuse DeeDee of lying.

      • Xena says:

        @kllypyn to creepytwins

        You should be asking about zimmerpunks lies.

        BINGO! GZ needs a defense and nothing DeeDee says proves that he killed Trayvon in self-defense. What was that Blackwell said about side-show?

        Kinda reminds me of the Jodi Arias trial. She spent days on the stand sounding as though she was auditioning for porn when none of that proves she killed Travis in self-defense.

      • towerflower says:

        Xena, And I bet we can expect a Arias type of defense if fogen takes the stand. My mind was in a fog, I don’t remember. It’s my ADHD.

        • Xena says:


          Xena, And I bet we can expect a Arias type of defense if fogen takes the stand. My mind was in a fog, I don’t remember. It’s my ADHD.

          A repeat of his testimony at his first bond hearing — when questioned, he doesn’t remember. A repeat of his interrogation — when questioned about answers that don’t make sense, he is ADHD.

          I heard GZ say that he doesn’t have a good memory and can’t help but shout BUT YOU WANT TO BE A JUDGE? Then I recalled the movie “Rain Man” — the “I can drive” part.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think Mr. Leatherman explains w8 “lies” well. If she stretched the truth, it’s not a material issue, blah blah. The issue is not an insurmountable obstacle that you’re making this out to be. What’s more important is what happens in court.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Creepy — Your statements are far too sweeping to be credible with me. Ben Crump does not sicken me, nor do I think you’re in a position to know what his priorities on Trayvon’s death were or are. As for whether he had his eyes on the ball, Ben Crump did a mighty effective of garnering worlwide attention for a senseless killing that Sanford cops were only too happy to let slide.

      While I would not venture an opinion on appellate review of Judge Nelson’s rulings, I do feel confident that Crump and Blackwell, along with NBC’s legal team will wipe the floor with Team Fogen. Corey, BDLR and Guy then can polish off. .

      • creepytwins says:

        Be real… Trayvon’s cause would be better served if his family had never heard of Benjamin Crump.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Trayvon’s cause, as you put it, would have been buried along with Trayvon had it not been for Ben Crump.

      • ay2z says:

        possible someone is just trolling for an opportunity to trash someone?

      • ay2z says:

        The only focus for justice for Trayvon Martin, is his killer and that is THIS guy.

      • ay2z says:

        and his accomplices can have their own day too. Forget the rest of the smoke’n mirrors.

        Did Junior really say he was with his brother’s wife 24 hrs a day while he was in jail???

      • creepytwins says:

        @Trained Observer

        What if Dee Dee had gone directly to the police and told them what she heard?

        No Crump necessary….

      • creepytwins says:


        No one is saying that fogen isn’t guilty… no one here anyway. But guilt does not always mean a conviction. And my concern is that Crump has harmed the case irreparably.

      • ks says:


        Ah yes the old “DD should have…” garbage. Reminds me of the “Trayvon could have made it home….” stuff. In fact, you don’t really know all what DD did or didn’t do and neither does the defense but instead of deposing her to find out they are playing media games. Gee, I wonder why? Not.

      • @Creepytwins,,you aren’t fooling anyone with your fake concerns.

        Please open up gz’s fan! We can see you……

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Professor! It appears that “creepy twins” is trolling. Thanks for your attention to the matter.

    • ks says:

      What are you talking about? That’s nonsense. The “Crump stuff” is immaterial spin from GZ’s falks.

      • creepytwins says:

        The lawyer who pushed for charges lied multiple times.

        That’s bad.

        Forget the racist GZ folks for a minute. Crump’s involvement is problematic to say the least. Tray’s family should have looked for pro bono lawyers who were not interested in a cash settlement.

        • cielo62 says:

          Creepy twins- what cash settlement? Who has been sued? Your statement is nonsensical.

          Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            That’s what trolls do…..just don’t feed them.

          • Race…..think about it “CREEPY TWINS”……Twins indicates there’s 2 of them…….fogen & shellie?………..or someone with a split personality….one side pro fogen……one side pro Trayvon…….

            Either way I don’t like him / her / them……and could give a rats ass about their comments

          • racerrodig says:

            That’s why I rarely answer them….let ’em freaking starve.

        • Tray’s family should have looked for pro bono lawyers who were not interested in a cash settlement.

          Quite possibly the most ridiculous thing you’ve said.

          • racerrodig says:

            “Quite possibly the most ridiculous thing you’ve said.”

            The Year is Still Young.

      • ks says:

        What? Crump wasn’t the only person who pushed for charges. Your “pro-bono lawyers”, whatever that means, is just silly.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Creepy — Pro bono lawyers? Like O’Mara? You have no idea what Crump’s business arrangement is with Trayvon’s parents.

      • Rachael says:

        @creepytwins: “Forget the racist GZ folks for a minute. Crump’s involvement is problematic to say the least. Tray’s family should have looked for pro bono lawyers who were not interested in a cash settlement.”

        Do you know the difference between a civil and a criminal case?

    • ks says:

      You really don’t know what you’re talking about. Crump’s press conferences are not evidence. His interview with DD was not under oath and will not be submitted as evidence. And so on… The defense wants to depose him mostly as a PR stunt.

      • creepytwins says:

        Are you saying that it’s okay for Crump to lie in press conferences?

        I disagree.

        • PiranhaMom says:


          Please quote Crump’s lie(s), date(s), location(s) and online verifiable sources to review same.

          Thank you.

      • ks says:

        Again, what? You accuse Crump on lying based on……? The reality is that Crump will be not be a real part of the criminal case. The questions you should be asking is why hasn’t the defense deposed w8 as they’ve been told to many time now.

      • creepytwins says:


        Please don’t tell me what to do. You can use Google to look it up. Focus on the parts where Dee Dee is a minor who was so distraught that she went to the hospital. Either he was lying or Dee Dee was lying.

        • Please don’t tell me what to do. You can use Google to look it up. Focus on the parts where Dee Dee is a minor who was so distraught that she went to the hospital. Either he was lying or Dee Dee was lying.

          That stuff is irrelevant, immaterial and inadmissible because it does not make it more or less likely that the defendant acted in self-defense.

      • Jun says:

        Yeah, what I thought

        You are making sweeping allegations with no proof

        When you want to present a theory and back it up, then please do so, otherwise you have no credibility, like you are alleging Crump & DeeDee lack

        Were you there to witness Deedee’s distraughtness, which you claim is a lie? If not, you are basing it on what, this alleged lie?

        Do you know DD’s birthday? Could it possible that when Crump knew of her, he was under the presumption she was a minor?

        It is funny how you are telling everyone, what to do, Creepy, yet, you tell people not to tell you what to do

        A little hypocritical, aren’t we?

        Just because Omara says it is so, does not make it so, especially, since that guy is a repeated liar himself, making accusations of others

        Anyways, had enough of your trolling

        If you are not trolling, then back up your theory

        The only way you can prove that it is even remotely true is you have to prove that Crump had prior knowledge of the information but then said differently, which I can confidently say, you do not

        And let’s say for the argument, the sake of it, they were both lying…. does that necessarily make all of the defendant’s crooked’s straight? Does that make the defendant’s lies go away? How is Crump lying, when he is not a witness to anything, and all he can do is translate the information given to him and his theory on what happened?

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “You are making sweeping allegations with no proof…”

          Speaking of sweeping allegations with no proof…

          What about Crump’s sweeping allegations with no proof about Lee and Wolfinger getting together on the night of the shooting and entering into a conspiracy to obstruct justice.

          Anybody seen him produce any proof of that yet?

          With the case soon to come to trial I’d think any evidence of anyone covering up evidence should have been brought forward by now.


          • cielo62 says:

            IMO- doesn’t the fact that Lee stated publicly that GZ was “squeaky clean” and they had no evidence for an arrest count as obstruction of justice?

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            “Squeaky Clean” man has that been debunked and that seems like 100 years ago.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            You’d think that as Chief of Police he’d have some sort of support for such a remark. Since that isn’t the type of remark that a public figure can or should make off the top of their head. Apparently Lee could have been introducing Jack the Ripper for all he knew or cared to know.

          • racerrodig says:


            “Okay, is everyone paying attention ? Does everyone have one of these brochures ? All right then. My name is Chief Lee and I’d like to take the time to introduce the new Neighborhood Watch Commandant for the City of Sanford. He’s a squeaky clean role model and a good wholesome American.

            His name is FogenPhoole Zidiot and he’ll be running all law enforcement in town now. If you have anything suspicious to report call him first, his number in on the form. It seems he’s the one man who cracked the burglary ring in The Retreat at Twin Lakes when the police dept was powerless.

            (rumblings from the crowd)

            Okay…..settle down now, I know some of you are a little bit upset about that small incident last February, but hey, that’s the price you pay for walking around…… night……..with a hoodie up…… the rain…….when a good Watch Captain is on duty. I’m sure none of you wanted that one to get away now did you ??”

            They become more hateable everyday, as do his minions.

          • Xena says:

            What about Crump’s sweeping allegations with no proof about Lee and Wolfinger getting together on the night of the shooting and entering into a conspiracy to obstruct justice.

            Anybody seen him produce any proof of that yet?

            If there is corruption in Lee and Wolfinger’s actions, that is under federal jurisdiction and has nothing to do with GZ’s defense. The feds have already told O’Mara that the State has given him everything that the feds have turned over to them — and he gets nothing more from them because there is an ongoing investigation.

            If indeed O’Mara is trying to circumvent the federal government’s rules on discovery by deposing attorney Crump, I hope that Blackwell raises that before the court. If Judge Nelson grants the defense opportunity to depose attorney Crump, I hope that an U.S. Attorney is present for the deposition.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “If there is corruption in Lee and Wolfinger’s actions, that is under federal jurisdiction and has nothing to do with GZ’s defense.”

            If there is as yet undisclosed evidence in the case, which Crump’s allegations indicate he has knowledge of, then that very much has to do with the defense, and if there’s an indication of such the defense has a duty to their client to find that out now, before trial, and they have a right to know about it as well.


          • Xena says:

            @onlyiamunitron. If what you refer to as Attorney Crump having knowledge about Lee and Wolfinger’s actions as “evidence,” then that is under federal jurisdiction. The State conducted its own investigation and charged GZ with 2nd degree murder.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “If what you refer to as Attorney Crump having knowledge about Lee and Wolfinger’s actions as “evidence,” then that is under federal jurisdiction.”

            Crump claims that Lee and Wolfinger covered up evidence.

            If that evidence exists, the defense has a right to know what it is and a duty to their client to find out, now, before the trial, and the federal government has no right to withhold it from them.

            Unless you’re saying that they covered up evidence that has nothing to do with Zimmerman, in which case what is Crump complaining about?


          • Xena says:


            Crump claims that Lee and Wolfinger covered up evidence.

            If that evidence exists, the defense has a right to know what it is and a duty to their client to find out, now, before the trial, and the federal government has no right to withhold it from them.

            Whatever evidence Lee and Wolfinger covered up to prevent charging GZ with murder, the State discovered because the State charged GZ.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “Whatever evidence Lee and Wolfinger covered up to prevent charging GZ with murder, the State discovered because the State charged GZ.”

            Unless the state is being very careful not to go after Lee and Wolfinger, or not to go after them until much later.

            It’s quite possible that the state will only use what evidence they think they need to get a conviction, and not everything they have.

            Just because the principles are not publicly saying that politics are involved in this case does not mean that politics are not involved in this case.

            It would be incompetent of the defense to just assume stuff and not actually check it out.

            Lawyers who do that run the risk of being blindsided in the middle of trial.

            Suppressed evidence is not always considerate enough to remain suppressed until those supressing it wish for it to finally come to light.


          • Xena says:

            @onlyiamunitron. I cannot address your full comments unless we get on the same page concerning the root issue. RE:

            Unless the state is being very careful not to go after Lee and Wolfinger, or not to go after them until much later.

            It’s out of the State’s jurisdiction.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            The root issue is that if there is evidence which was suppressed, the defense has a right to know about that evidence and a duty to seek out that evidence, which means they have a right to ask Crump about that evidence, since he claims to know about the suppression of it.

            One would assume that he’s not claiming that the suppression occured, but that the evidence suppressed doesn’t actually exist, or that he has no idea what the evidence is, but knows for certain that it was suppressed.

            Regardless of whether the act of covering it up is a violation of Florida’s laws or federal laws or both or neither, the defense has a right to know about that evidence itself, and a right and a duty to seek it out, and if that evidence doesn’t actually exist, the defense have a right to make sure of that as well, since there are allegations that it does exist.

            The Feds don’t get to interfere in Zimmerman’s defense just because they might have an investigation of Lee and/or Wolfinger and/or the Sanford PD or the mayor’s office or whoever going on, anymore than the state of Florida does just because they might have an investigation of any of the aforementioned going on.


          • Xena says:

            @Onlyiamunitron. I will say again and for the last time. If Lee and Wolfinger suppressed evidence, the State dug it out and charged GZ with 2nd degree murder.

            If Lee and Wolfinger suppressed evidence, then the feds are not looking for formerly suppressed evidence but rather, what charges can be brought against Lee and Wolfinger for suppressing evidence.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “If Lee and Wolfinger suppressed evidence, the State dug it out and charged GZ with 2nd degree murder. ”

            Okay, so unlike Crump’s certainty, you’re going with “If”.

            If they suppressed evidence, exactly what evidence was that?

            Is it impossible that they did not succeed even partially, if they tried?

            Since Crump seems to be convinced that it did happen, shouldn’t they be able to find out from him exactly what evidence it was so that they can be sure it’s all already come out?

            Is it really so terrible if they don’t just take your word for it but want to hear it from the allegation maker himself?


          • Xena says:


            Okay, so unlike Crump’s certainty, you’re going with “If”.

            Unlike you, I am going with jurisdiction.

          • dianetrotter says:

            Would it be unethical for the defense to represent Lee and Wolfinger as well as GZ. Shouldn’t O’Mara be concerned about GZ and February 26, 2012.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            If Lee and Wolfinger want lawyers they can hire their own.

            If they concealed evidence in Zimmerman’s case, Zimmerman’s lawyers have a right and a duty to try to find out what it was/is.

            Which is why they need to be able to question the person who has purported to have evidence that they (Lee and Wolfinger) did try to conceal evidence in the Zimmerman case.


      • ks says:


        Speaking of sidestepping the issue at hand…..

        Again, Crump’s press conference/media appearances are not evidence but I will note that Lee and Wolfinger are no longer in their positions. Funny that.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          Considering that Crump’s as yet unsubstantiated allegations feature prominently in the most recent filing by the defense, I don’t see it as sidestepping, unless you mean Crump’s attempt to sidestep having to put up or shut up about it.


          • fauxmccoy says:


            the presence of wolfinger at the police state is not an allegation of crump’s. it was reported in and on msnbc by joyann reid, who cited her source as a member of the police force who was choosing to remain anonymous.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “the presence of wolfinger at the police state is not an allegation of crump’s. it was reported in and on msnbc by joyann reid, who cited her source as a member of the police force who was choosing to remain anonymous.”

            What’s the proof that that anonymous source told the truth?

            What sort of corroborating evidence did they offer?


          • fauxmccoy says:

            hey buddy, do you know why the three little pigs left home?

            the answer is obvious – someone wishes to keep their job on a police force. in this economy, imagine that. reid is a respected journalist, if you question her you should take it up with her directly.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “the answer is obvious – someone wishes to keep their job on a police force.”

            Which would be equally true whether they had told the truth or not.

            Without corroboration, what they said is just an unsubstantiated rumor.

            Maybe true, maybe not.

            No matter who reported it.

            (since all they did was report that an anonymous source said it, and didn’t offer anything else to back up what that source said)

            Crump made a public accusation (being well aware of the laws about libel and slander, which is reason enough for O’Mara and West to suspect that he has more to tell on the subject) and has never provided anything to back up that accusation, but if there’s anything to it, the defense has a duty to their client to find out about it before the trial starts, which means they have a duty to find out from Crump what Crump knows.

            And if there’s nothing to it, the defense has a duty to their client to find that out for sure as well prior to the start of the trial.

            Since they can’t kidnap Crump and waterboard him (well, not legally or ethically, or in any way that yields anything which would be admissible in court), the only alternative is to depose him under oath.


          • fauxmccoy says:

            and why the three little pigs left home, again?

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Do you belive every rumor you hear, or just the ones that you want to be true?


          • fauxmccoy says:

            funny thing – every time i try to type your name, my spell check wants to change it to unitard. i just might go with that from now on, so far i have been kind enough to put spell check in its place.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Funny thing, one of the first steps in dehumanizing someone is to screw around with their name.


          • fauxmccoy says:

            … and some folks do a fine job of dehumanizing themselves all on their own. your little devl’s advocate game is past its expiration date. for the life of me, i see no valid contribution to any discussion you have made other than to ‘challenge’ others, often with the most boorish of manners.

          • racerrodig says:

            X 3…notice when he got slapped on the picnic word all of the sudden one of his posts got lost during the Professors computer issue. A bold faced lie……since nobody else’s did and he responded freely on the ONLY one he had. Trolling liars.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            It didn’t get lost, it got hung up in moderation because of having two links in it and appeared to have gotten lost.


          • racerrodig says:

            You got it babe…..3 little pigs…..papa…..

          • cielo62 says:

            Uni- MOM also lies in public, like about the “undisputed broken nose.” At some point I think all lawyers engage in slinging BS. Crump made an inference about Lee and Wolfinger based in what sources he had. Obviously he hit a truth, since both Lee and Wolfie are unemployed right now.

            Sent from my iPod

          • You are absolutely wrong. Since the prosecution has not endorsed Crump as a witness, the defense has no right to depose him.

            They could approach him privately and ask him to provide a basis for stating that Lee and Wolfinger “suppressed” evidence, but he would have no duty or obligation to answer the question and they would not have any legal recourse, if he refused to answer.

            This is well settled law.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            What about the defendant’s 6th amendment right to witnesses?

            If Crump alleges that he has evidence about evidence, can the defense call him to the stand during the trial and make him testify about that?


          • No, because anything he would be able to say would be hearsay and probably protected work product..

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            So they can’t even get him to reveal who told him so that that person can be called?

            Can Lee and Wolfinger go after Crump civily for slander or libel if he can’t offer any actual proof of the wrongdoing of which he accused them?


          • fauxmccoy says:

            my dear professor,

            at the risk of earning your wrath, may i just say that this topic and poster are becoming a time sucking vortex?

          • racerrodig says:

            Three Little Pigs……I remember !! This is something that was put to rest…..oh, what, 9 months ago. I guess he loves to major in the minors.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Thank you, this is what I wanted. I knew it was out there, I just forgot which outfit did the story and many sites have altered their reports, as if no one would notice it. The OS is notorious for that.
            After reporting about the white Ransberg, who had the stolen laptop and widescreen phone in his back pack, they are now reporting on a black Ransberg, as if the white one, listed in the evidence dumps as arrested on 2/7/12 with E. Burgess, doesn’t exist. Hmmm, eh?

            What was the white Ransberg doing with Emanuel Burgess stolen laptop in his back pack? Why was Burgess so quick to claim the property he had stolen the day before, as his? He then ran to the next community where the police caught him, brought him back and arrested all four guys, three blacks and one white.

            Burgess parole was violated and he remained in jail at least for the rest of the month we know about. But, we cannot find any mugshots for the other three, including the white Ransberg.

            I note that with the arrest of Burgess, that would leave the white Ransberg with only two black followers. Guess who shows up at the 711, just as Trayvon waits outside the store for 30 seconds until they appear? Yep, A white guy with dreadlocks and two black companions, all of whom conceal their faces from the 711 cctv’s, and who delay Trayvon’s return trip for about 7 minutes.

            Now, look at this Time Line here and note how that 7 minute delay, Prevents Trayvon from reaching home, without having to shelter from the rain, and long before GZ even leaves home.

            As the story goes, as Trayvon was nearing RATL, the rain started getting heavier and he had to run for the mail shed. He then held up there for several more minutes, leaving shelter, not because the rain had lessened, but because he discovered GZ was following him.

            Without those 3 at 711 causing a nearly 7 minute delay, Trayvon would have come in the front gate nearly 5 minutes or so, before the heavy rain had started and would have, therefore, continued home. He’d have arrived home in just 3 more minutes from the mail shed.
            And GZ would have missed his opportunity.

            Was that all coincidence?

            Coincidence 1. According to Chad, Trayvon went to the store on Thursday. But, Coincidence 2. Trayvon never notices the coin-on-the-floor trick that day. Coincidence 3. He tells DD that he’s going to the store because Chad wants skittles. Coincidence 4, Chad tells Brandy that Trayvon asked him if he wanted anything because he was going to the store. Coincidence 5 is that Trayvon decided to go to the store at all that day. Coincidence 6. is that Trayvon didn’t go earlier, but leaves home after sunset. C 7, He’s met at the store and delayed getting home, just long enough to make his capture by GZ possible. C8, Trayvon runs with a good 30 second lead on GZ, yet, despite his fear of GZ, who is bigger, stronger and armed and dangerous, Trayvon can get no further than some 50 to 60 feet south of the T. Puzzling isn’t it?

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “the presence of wolfinger at the police state is not an allegation of crump’s. it was reported in and on msnbc by joyann reid, who cited her source as a member of the police force who was choosing to remain anonymous.

            I happened to see that again while looking back to see where it was that roderick2012 got his nose all out of joint.

            I went to that link, watched the MSNBC report, where Reid never says who or what her source is, and read the Grio report, where she only says “A source with knowledge of the investigation into the shooting of Trayvon Martin …” but never says that the source is a member of the force.

            “Someone with knowledge of the investigation” covers a lot of ground, depending on just how you define “knowledge”.

            Make it broad enough, and her source could have been Crump.

            Maybe they were doing a Judith Miller–Dick Cheney routine.

            Radar Online says that “a source close to the situation” says that Crump told Witness 8 that she was the last person to talk to Trayvon and they go on to say that she “…became absolutely inconsolable and had trouble breathing so her mother took her to a nearby hospital emergency room. She had never seen her daughter this upset before, ever. She had a battery of tests, including an EKG, and was there for over 12 hours.”

            I do not consider that proof that Crump or his people ever said anything about an EKG. “a source close to the situation” could have been Crump’s driver in Miami.


      • ks says:


        Exactly. This is s classic repetitive propaganda tactic they are using to try and build a meme or media narrative. That is why they are not in a hurry to depose w8 because they would have to stop the nonsense but they are in a hurry to try and depose Crump even though he’s largely not material to the criminal case. .

        As seen here, when asked about specifics and materiality regarding Crump and/or DD’s supposed “lies”, you either get ignored or an irrelevant sleight of hand but they always wind up repeating the dubious “Crump/DD lied” meme.

      • roderick2012 says:

        @ onlyiamunitron

        It’s obvious that something shady was going on that night. Why would a State Attorney leave his comfy bed on a cold rainy February night to look at a crime scene in the middle of the night?

        Then there was the blame game about why no charges were filed against George even though Serino believed that George was guilty of manslaughter. The police department claimed that they didn’t have that power while the State Attorney’s office claimed that the police could have filed charges without the consent of the State Attorney’s office which leads me to believe that since Wolfinger was already in the area that he did drop by the Sanford police station and personally squashed the investigation against George.

        “ABC News reported last week that Sanford police detective Chris Serino, unconvinced by Zimmerman’s story of self-defense, wanted to charge him with manslaughter, but was overruled by Wolfinger’s office.”

        Lynne Bumpus-Hooper, a spokesman for Wolfinger, said the state attorney never spoke with Lee on the night of the shooting. Instead Sanford police consulted that night with Kelly Jo Hines, the prosecutor on call, Bumpus-Hooper said. She declined to say what was discussed.

        “Police officers can make an arrest at virtually any dadgum point they feel they have enough probable cause to make an arrest,” Bumpus-Hooper said. “They do not need our permission and they do not seek our permission.”

        Someone is lying and it ain’t Ben Crump

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “Why would a State Attorney leave his comfy bed on a cold rainy February night to look at a crime scene in the middle of the night?”

          I don’t know what time Wolfinger usually goes to bed, although it’s probably not as early as 8 or 9 PM, but what proof or evidence is there that he went to either the crime scene or the police station or anywhere that night?


        • onlyiamunitron says:

          ” “Police officers can make an arrest at virtually any dadgum point they feel they have enough probable cause to make an arrest,”… ”

          And if they don’t feel they have enough probable cause, they can’t.


      • roderick2012 says:

        @ onlyiamunitron

        This is the last time I respond to your troll crap.

        Do your own research next time because you’re like the child who keeps asking why even after your question has been answered.

        What was not stated was that, on the night of the killing, Wolfinger may have traveled to either the scene of the shooting or the police station to discuss the case with Lee and O’Connor, who was briefly named interim “co-chief” with the current acting chief, Darren Scott, when Lee announced he would step down temporarily last week.

        In this case, the source says investigators spoke to the on-duty assistant state attorney — an unidentified woman — who did not come to the scene, but that Wolfinger did.

        And according to the source, after a conversation between Lee, O’Connor and Wolfinger, the decision was made to “cut Zimmerman loose.”

        If true, the account may explain why Wolfinger recused himself from the case last week, on the same day Lee announced he was stepping aside. Also in question is whether Lee himself or O’Connor overruled Serino that night.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          An unidentified source who has never come forward is not evidence, and proves nothing except that somebody said something but offered no proof to back it up.

          “What was not stated was that, on the night of the killing, Wolfinger may have traveled to either the scene of the shooting or the police station to discuss the case with Lee and O’Connor…”

          Or he “may” have run over to Walt Disney World, but there’s no evidence of that, either.

          He “may” have done a lot of things.

          How about some actual proof of what he “did” do?


        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yep, plenty of people saying this, anyone on record as yet? I’d love to have this as a point to enter on my timeline.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @lonnie – reported by joyann reid at both the grio and on msnbc


          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Thanx, got it, now, has anyone been able to “tease” out a time for them to have appeared at either place? Right now I’ve got it on my timeline as unknown [] I’m just going to keep adding events as I come across ones with time stamps. If you have any just post a comment there and I’ll add it.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @lonnie — i am glad the link was helpful for you. i have a vague memory of reid giving some info on time, i think it was very late evening/early morning. she is very accessible via twitter, you could try to contact her there.

            on another note, it is lovely to post a link to a legitimate journalist and news organization and not be the brunt of some demented challenge that the sources were lying or not corroborated. i believe she has more than one source and as an employee of nbc, she and nbc are well aware of what constitutes libel/slander. other than denying the incident occurred, wolfinger has certainly made no attempt at legal remedy regarding this, i will trust reid and her sources as she has nothing to hide.

            if the grio is not a regular part of your reading for this case, i would highly recommend it. reid is top notch in her reporting and has broken some major developments, none that needed retraction as far as i remember.

            anyway, glad to help.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            So many sites so little time, lol. Thanx I’ll make grio a regular read. Beats a lot of the flaky sites we’ve had to rely on, here today, gone tomorrow and/or constantly altering their reports, egad. It’s enough to drive one insane.

      • roderick2012 says:

        @unitron and Lonnie, both of you can kiss my ass.

        It’s obvious that both Wolifinger and Lee did something wrong otherwise they would not have resigned.

        We will probably never know exactly what, but you can bet people don’t just end long careers just because….

        Think whatever you want I don’t care!!

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “@unitron and Lonnie, both of you can kiss my ass.”

          Separately and individually, or were you looking for a little ménage à trois action?

          If Lonnie and I have been lumped in together, then politics do indeed make strangebedfellows.


          • dianetrotter says:

            I’m sorry but this was funnee! I was reading right along and got stuck on “kiss.” I know Lonnie is a reasonable guy and am trying to give Uni the benefit of the doubt. Both subjects sharing that one verb and the Uni response are my humor for the night.

          • roderick2012 says:

            Only a perverted mind like yours would take it to a sexual level.

            Please refrain from replying to me in the future, troll.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “Only a perverted mind like yours would take it to a sexual level.’

            The phrase “Politics makes strange bedfellows” originates in the shortage of overnight accomodations for travelers in colonial America, which led to men who were previously unacquainted and not traveling together sharing what few beds there were to be had at inns, but strictly for the purposes of sleeping.

            There was also another bed-sharing custom back then called “bundling” which was performed whilst fully clothed and was strictly about keeping warm.

            Nothing sexual about either.

            But I’m not surprised one as quick to resort to vulgarity as you would go there.


          • cielo62 says:

            Unitron-I thought it was a clever retort. But maybe he was referring to the ménage a trios thing. Still clever.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            @roderick2012: As a general rule, when you make an assertion, that lacks any qualification, it is not trolling to ask for a cite. Thus, your reply was off base. You need to either qualify remarks you have no cites for, or be prepared to provide cites for your statements of fact.

            I don’t excoriate people for not having cites to back up their statements of fact, because I realize that some people aren’t even aware that they are making statements of fact, rather than merely repeating something they read somewhere. However, your detractors will not be so kind. fauxMcCoy has provided the material, upon which your claims rest, so copy and keep this url in case you want to use that assertion again as a fact.

            Be sure to thank fauxMcoy in the meantime.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          You mustn’t get so violently upset, simply because you do not have any hard evidence to support what you believe. Just be sure to let your readers know that it’s what you believe and don’t state it as fact.

          As far as Wolfinger and Lee showing up at the scene, I’m pretty sure that they did. Of course, they’d know to wave a finger at the records keeper, to keep their names off any logs. Thus all we have in suggestions and innuendo. But, perhaps, somewhere, there is someone who makes a statement of it, so that’s what we’re all on he look out for.

          As far as I know, the records we have from that night were poorly kept by the SPD and even by the media. For one, there’s a claim that the weather prevented air rescue, yet in one media report from the scene, we can hear a news helicopter in the air over the scene.
          Reminds me of 911 when I asked on usenet, why no air rescue from the roof was attempted. The reply was that high winds prevented it. But, as we know, on 911 there were no high winds, and there was a police helicopter in the air doing filming.

          So, a little more patience and a little more searching will get you there from here.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @roderick2012. I knew this uni person was a *TROLL* and, also this creepyidiot person. there are a few more trolls here but, I’m not naming any names because, they know who they are.

        they will say one thing to make people here believe that they are for justice for Trayvon in this case, when they are not. there are at least *TWO* more of them here.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Why do some here feel the need to reply to these trolls who have come here to wreak havoc and, this is their sole purpose for coming here. the CDH is no longer blogging about this case, so these POINTY HEAD MORONS have chosen to come here, spewing their hate and lies. I myself will not give them the satisfaction by responding to them.

      • Jun says:

        Crump theorized bad acts from Wolfinger and some members of SPD, but the main issue is, they had to step down, and, nothing ever happened to them after that, so yes, he never proved it

        You see how it worked… Crump never proved it, and nothing solidified off his theory, therefore it is not fact, that is why nothing happened to them

        However, Crump did back up his theory, did he not?

        Majoring in Minors again

      • roderick2012 says:

        Lonnie Starr says:

        Be sure to thank fauxMcoy in the meantime.

        Maybe you should have read my post because I posted the same link as fauxMcoy, idiot!!

      • roderick2012 says:

        onlyiamunitron says:And if they don’t feel they have enough probable cause, they can’t.

        Yet Serino thought he had enough probable cause to arrest George for manslaughter…funny that!!

        I mean hell whenever someone kills another person that’s enough probable cause.

      • parrot says:


        “Unitron-I thought it was a clever retort. But maybe he was referring to the ménage a trios thing. Still clever”.

        I would add disingenuous.

      • roderick2012 says:

        Frederick Leatherman says:Lonnie is not an idiot and neither are you.

        When someone lectures me to add something (link) that is obviously included in both of my posts the only other option than idiot is that Lonnie is visually impaired.

        Take your pick!!

        • I will be more specific.

          This is not a matter of choosing whether or not to call someone an idiot.

          Calling someone an idiot is not an option, unless you want to get banned.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Your first mistake is in thinking that I was lecturing you. Probably because unitrons post upset you. All I had wanted was a time for their appearance. Obviously that link was not likely to have one. It’s not as if I had not seen that article before, I remember seeing it many times over the year. But, your assertion seemed to say that you had managed to determine a likely time for their appearance, that is what I was hoping you could provide.

          You have called me several derisive names, have you not yet noted that I haven’t responded in kind? Do you think that is because I cannot? I doubt there is anyone on the internet, about whom I could find some mistake they had made, and castigate them unmercifully for it. I would suggest that you save the venom for those who offer it to you first, and probably not bother to return it even then.

          • roderick2012 says:

            I really don’t give a darn about you.

            I posted the link to the story I quoted.

            You could have kept your mouth shut if you didn’t find the information you wanted/needed and gone away but you decided to lecture me with two posts just to piggyback on the troll Unitron, even though what I posted was in response to Unitron and not you.

          • racerrodig says:

            Tell ’em Lonnie. As much as I know I know about this, you have given me, and I’m a “prove it to me” guy many avenues to go down with theories. I know I have stated things you may have thought “..what..?” yet did not call me an idiot. You have however educated me and given me links and facts I didn’t see, nor gave a second thought to.

            Can’t thank ya enough.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            You are most welcomed, and we all give each other room when we stumble as we as humans all must.

            Anyway, what concerns me now is that people are saying that Trayvon did not immediately go non-verbal upon being shot. That is simply not true. Once the chest cavity is punctured, the person cannot move air in or out of their lungs, Even if the lungs still had air in them, no conscious effort of any kind could manage to move air in or out of the lungs, less with enough force to vibrate the vocal chords.

            The diaphragm depends on an intact chest cavity to work. Muscles pull it down to create a vacuum that draws air into the lungs, then they push up and compress the chest to force air out of the lungs, but this cannot work if the chest cavity springs a leak, since it cannot be pressurized or vacuumed. It is, in fact, a horrible way to die, to lay there wanting to breathe very badly, as CO2 builds up in the blood triggering a demand that you breathe. But you cannot breathe and the terrible rising discomfort terrorizes increasingly until loss of consciousness finally ensues. So, unless the trauma of gunshot created enough hydrostatic pressure to knock Trayvon immediately unconscious he could only lay there and suffer greatly and even worse as GZ mounted his back.

            But GZ is a liar and the ME will prove yet another GZ lie when he testifies in court, about whether or not Trayvon could speak after being shot. Remember, the initial CPR attempt resulted in nothing more than gurgling sounds coming from the hole in Trayvon’s chest. Meaning that air was moving in and out of the hold in his chest, and not resulting in vacuum or compression, needed to inflate / deflate the lungs.

          • racerrodig says:

            I firmly believe that a millisecond after the trigger pull all Trayvon could muster was a faint ‘Uhh” then interminable agony knowing he’d been shot for walking home.

          • PiranhaMom says:


            Superb descriptive analysis, Lonnie.

            There will be both the M.E.’s testimony, the first responders who attempted the CPR and the neighbors/witnesses from whom plastic bags were requested.

            The general public is now well-acquained with CPR and some jurors may even have had CPR training.

            I hope Bernie adopts your depiction of the events.

            It fits a layman’s understanding perfectly. This is so important in selecting the message for the jury.

            It is graphic.

            It is understandable.

            It is tragic and gruesome.

            It happened.

            It’s important to buckle together both Zimmerman’s shooting of Trayvon and the post-shooting torture of Trayvon and the defilement of his dying body.

            Couple this with his stupid lies and braggadocio in his sworn testimony to SPD.

            YOU’VE DONE IT ALL.

            I thank you, Lonnie.
            This is one of your most important analyses.

            (I was ready to write “breathtaking”,
            when I realized the tragic significance here
            of that word … )

          • dianetrotter says:

            I am really impacted by Lonnie’s description. For GZ to verbalize the 70s Black exploitation “monologue” is a sign that he did not value the life that he had taken. I can’t wait for the trial. Hopefully, by July 4, he will know about barbecue.

          • racerrodig says:

            I just love learning from Lonnie…..and well, everyone here !!

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Professor Fred,

            I don’t often consider human endeavors “brilliant” but this one is, both in its physiology and its pure simplicity that is

            spot-on level with intelligent jurors’ comprehension.

            It was so precisely targeted (sorry about that word) that it made me think, “We ought to put together a “class project report,” titled:

            IN RE: State of Florida V. George Michael Zimmerman, REBUTTALS TO ZIMMERMAN’S CLAIMS

            It would work BACK from the arrival at the scene of Sanford PD officers, through Zimmerman’s flipping Trayvon over and climbing aboard (all 207 lbs.), through his claims of Trayvon’s post-shot verbalization (using Lonnie’s post in its entirety), through the shooting and the bullet trajectory, through Zimmerman’s claims that he was UNDER Trayvon …. all the way back through the 311-NEN call.

            From the end to the beginning.

            It would not include any conspiracy theories, of which there are many – it’s simply a rebuttal of Zimmerman’s claims.

            Then we e-mail it to Bernie de la Rionda.

            Lonnie has BDLR’s e-mail address.

            Would the The Professor support us doing this? With or without his name (identifying his website as to where we came together)? With or without his input?

            Is it presumptuous?
            Hell, yes!

            Are they likely already monitoring this site? Very likely.

            But in this case, “It takes a Village to bring Justice to Trayvon.”

            We are that Village.

            What sayest thou, Racer?



          • racerrodig says:

            I know for fact The Feds are monitoring this (and other) sites, It’s a super idea, and I’ll bet the Professor would have no issue.

          • cielo62 says:

            PirhanaMom- FWIW I’d add my paw print to that.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Thank you all for your kind words, I just want to see Fogen get what he deserves. In my book he’s a terrible monster. He could never have stopped himself, no matter what was done or said, he craved a kill for the longest and his cowardly selection shows just what a coward he is. I’m sure he knew and saw Burgess walking the neighborhood and I’m just as sure he knew Burgess was a criminal. But at 6′ 215 lbs twinkie butt Zimmerwad couldn’t summon the courage to even give him a dirty look.

          • racerrodig says:

            That’s what I think….a one man “Crime Fighting Machine” After all, he “..was mad as hell and not going to take it anymore”

    • vickie s. votaw says:


    • whonoze says:

      Mr. Crump IS a bit of a shifty character. He plays the system to what he sees as the maximum benefit for his clients, pushing the envelope where he can. In other words, he’s a typical civil action attorney. Labeling him a ‘liar’ is way out of bounds. He most likely did not know DeeDee’s actual age when he gave his press conference. I would guess he was told DeeDee was 16 by Sybrina Fulton, who was simply mistaken. Everything about his recording of the DeeDee interview evidences AV ineptitude, not any kind of deceptive editing (this being verified by the ABC clip BTW). Nothing in the ABC clip is evidence that he suborned perjury. When he asked DeeDee to restate what she had just said, that was because he realized his recorder had been off. The terms he suggest she use are most likely ones she herself had already used in earlier parts of the interview (unintelligible in his recording) and he was trying to keep her consistent.

      We will probably learn the details of DeeDee’s trip to seek medical attention eventually. If she went somewhere, anywhere to do so that won’t be a problem. You can’t expect an unsophisticated teen to distinguish between a genuine hospital and some other sort of medical facility. If she never went anywhere, that may be a minor problem to her credibility.

      True, some of Mr. Crumps statements have left openings for the kinds of attacks the Defense is trying to mount. He was certainly being disingenuous when he claimed he had no knowledge of whether or not ABC had successfully recorded any part of the interview, since he must have been aware of the numerous broadcast stories containing sound-bites drawn from that conversation. As Unitron says, DeeDee could have been better served by Crump, his staff, and BdlR. But that’s a far cry from the kind of misconduct you are alleging, and your ‘proof’ is nothing but a pack of straw.

      If you are truly sickened by anyone in this case outside of George Zimmerman, IMHO your moral compass needs an adjustment.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Why don’t you accuse TMobile of lying? It’s the TMobile statement that shows Trayvon was in contact with Witness 8 up to the minute of his death. So never mind what Trayvon’s parents’ attorney said about Witness 8, the TMobile corporation is what messes up the poor defendant’s story.

      • Rachael says:

        Dang Cercando Luce, you just cracked the case!! It was all T-Mobile’s fault!!!!

      • creepytwins says:

        @Cercando Luce

        I don’t remember saying that. Are you, perhaps, using a red herring to deflect?

        Yes. Yes you are. Well played.

      • pat deadder says:

        creepytwins Why were Lee and Wolfinger forced to step down and isn’t it true Wolfinger or whatever the hell his name is was very good friends with fogen senior.Why aren’t you so adament about questioning all that.

    • Malisha says:

      “Crump lied” is, like “DeeDee lied,” a diversion, an unproven and offensive guess, a non-issue, a form of Fogen-supportive bedevilment, and an utterly ridiculous circus event.

      Nobody has proved Crump lied about anything. What bothers the proFogenites is that Crump has been effective in getting the State of Florida to rethink its unlawful and unconstitutional initial intent to cover-up the murder of Trayvon Martin.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Careful, you’re feeding a troll. Recognize the signs?

      • creepytwins says:

        One of them lied. Which one?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Perhaps neither, Creepy. You’re looking for black and white answers in a world of gray. It may not even matter one way or another to the case.

      • texad says:

        @Malisha I so agree! I don’t think that we should get distracted by the finger pointing at the moon. The moon is right THERE and most of us see it. False equivalencies presented by folks who don’t understand why it is so important to obtain a conviction for the murder of a 17 year old unarmed minor [and Trayvon Martin was a minor according to Flordia law] are simply a distraction. We can all respect everyone’s 1st amendement rights to express their points of view [within the boundaries set by the Professor, of course]. More importantly, however,we should exercise our right to ignore them and communicate with those who add something to the conversation.

        It’s obvious to me now more than ever that 1) O’Mara has no case and he knows it 2) his people come on blogs such as this one to get some clue as to what the truth really is 3) O’Mara, West, and Zimmerman are scared to death of Witness #8’s testimony 4) The killer of Trayvon Martin has no more than 50 real supporters and they are running themselves ragged trying to pretend their numbers are larger 5)There will be Justice for Trayvon Martin.

    • KittySP says:

      @creepy…huh?! “What you talk’n ’bout Willis?” Lol

  36. colin black says:

    re above this had happened a year prior on Motherday.
    Not this years .
    Did not explain that well………..

  37. colin black says:

    O T For all cat lovers .

    Lillys white lillys the pollen acts as a nuro toxin an is poison.
    Deadly unteatable poison to cats.

    It was Mothersay couple of sundays ago in UK I think.
    I was chanell surfing an regognised a street near where I live.
    Local nrws chanell so paused to listen.

    A middle aged Woman explained one of her children sent her a boucette of flowers includeing lillys .
    All three of her cats died two discovered dead an third in process of dieing panting frothing.
    Rushed to the vets but D O A .

    Autopsy on the three revealed they had died rom inhakation contact with lilly pollen.
    She was running a campaign to make people aware of this.

    Im not sure I think its paracetomol or asprin one of thease pain killers was originaly found with in the bark of a tree.
    The lovals used it for medicinal purposes .

    But also as a weapon against big cats Lions mainly.
    If a Lion was threatening them or perhaps there cattle.
    THease Zullus lived of a mixture of blood an milk both obtained from there cattle symbiotic .
    Without killing or even harming theer stock.
    They knew wich vein to cut to drain a pint or two of blood.
    Like takeing a transfusion.

    The cattle survive an are rotated so no one animal is over drained.
    Maybe once every 6 weeks.
    Also the milk is obtained from there cattle
    Wich are there prized possesions.

    They knew if they laced a baited animall hid concentrate mushed up juices extrated from this bark was fatal to Cats all Cats wild or domestic.
    Even the synthised version of the compound used today in either paracetamol or asprin? is poisonous to Cats.

    Anyway I knew about the asprin paracetomol thing but only discovered this lilly info recently.

  38. ay2z says:

    A revisit to the pure and innocent, pre-fogen Mark O’Mara, ESQ. Then he went to the jail and met his client for the first time on April 12, 2012.

    Oh, the irony of the change in Mr. O’Mara and the comparisons made to the first two media hounds on the case as advisors.

    (there is a 4 minute pre-amble)

    • ay2z says:

      I posted this ‘day one’ video because the remarks and praise for O’Mara’s professionalism as it would contradict the media appearances of the first two lawyers. O’Donnell hated what the first two lawyers did, but coming up to one year later, I wish I could ask O’Donnel what he thinks of O’Mara’s media case wholesaling now.

      There was something very striking about the last hearing and after-media-event, that must have caught BDLR’s eye and ear that caused him to pause and listen to O’Mara’s message to the jury pool public. O’Mara’s message was about the alleged statement of Witness 8 and he had to make a media apparance to emphasize the defense perspective of what he called a ‘lie’.

      That’s not particularly unusual for O’Mara, he milked it after it was revealed in the hearing but why? By the time that hearing was over, the media was all over the so-called ‘lie’, even going so far as to speculate about perjury, and Prof Fred wrote this important article. And this quote points out yet another striking point about the media hnndling of O’Mara, turning the biggest headline in the case, the SYG issue, into all but backpage news.

      US media pushes false narrative that DD (Witness 8) lied in Zimmerman case
      Wednesday, March 6, 2013
      Exciting day yesterday with the defense decision to forego an immunity hearing. That was huge after all of the right-wing assurances that Judge Nelson was going to grant the defendant immunity from criminal prosecution and civil suits for damages.
      The real eye-opener for me has been watching the media’s ongoing shameless effort since the hearing to downplay the significance of that decision while attempting to build up the significance of the prosecution’s admission that there are no hospital records that DD (AKA Witness 8) was in a hospital during Trayvon Martin’s wake or funeral.
      At the press conference following the hearing, for example, one female reporter aggressively pressed the prosecutor, Bernie de la Rionda, to explain why he had not charged DD with perjury.
      Now, I have heard a lot of stupid questions asked over the years, and even asked more than a few myself, but this one is quite possibly the dumbest one yet.
      As I pointed out yesterday, there is no evidence that DD lied or committed perjury.
      But even if she lied, and I am not conceding that she did, given the nature of the ambiguous questions she was asked, she certainly did not lie about a relevant or material matter regarding the homicide. Therefore, a perjury charge is not even a possibility.
      Moreover, her alleged lie would not be admissible at the trial. The jury will not hear about it and the defense will not be permitted to mention it.
      All of the media hullabaloo to create a false equivalency between DD’s alleged lie about going to a hospital instead of the wake or funeral and Shellie Zimmerman’s perjury charge for lying about her husband’s assets while under oath at a bail hearing is “baffling,” as Bernie de la Rionda snarked about the news that the defense was giving up on having an immunity hearing.
      The only news organization to accurately report what happened at yesterday’s hearing was The Guardian in the UK.

      If what Professor Leatherman has pointed out in this article isn’t striking enough in his ‘get the media into the shadow chasing game’, take a look at the lawyer’s (plural, West has the all important supporting role in this media play) behaviour in court. They actually PRIMED the media in the bleachers when they first entered the courtroom that morning, then when the first less exciting motions were heard, Mr. West does something that is followed by O’Mara swinging around in his chair to face backwards, he’s looking as if to make contact directly with his media group behind the defense table, and then as quickly, moves back to position.

      AS if to cue his media audience, to wake up now, pay attention, and West reiterates ‘time and money’. Another talking point for the media, which resulted coincidentally in the headling of the ‘Trayvon Martin’ case costing thousands to the Seminole County taxpayers. (clear message to Sanford taxpayers, don’t waste money on charging self-defense cases like this one).

      State of the Internet has the parts of this March 5 hearing, watch the beginning as MOM and West enter, and the beeline MOM makes to the media group. Then in part two, near the end of the video, West cues MOM and MOM turns to cut media, seemingly, he is ‘KEYING’ them.

      And the rest played out on the lawn after hearing was over. Emphasis on the ‘lie’ and ‘perjury’, feeding that while downplaying the big announcement of the day, the SYG hearing withdrawal pre-trial.

      What would O’Donnell say about this talking-point evidence played out in media, I wonder.

  39. Xena says:

    I just uploaded the Motion for Reconsideration. You should be able to retrieve it from the following link without having to sign into Word Press.

    Click to access motion_for_reconsideration.pdf

  40. whonoze says:

    The power connector is the achilles heel of virtually every PC laptop. Once the connector inside the computer breaks, it’s a complicated and expensive fix, since most laptops are quite difficult to take apart, and the circuit boards are almost impossible to hand solder.

    Mag laptops have a magnetic power connector, so nothing goes inside the computer and there’s nothing to break. OSX is much more user friendly than Windows and far less prone to viruses. The virus protection software you MUST install on every Windows machine slows down the system considerably. As they say, “Macs just work…”

    My advice, look for a used late-model MacBook (unless you do heavy video or graphics work you don’t need a MacBook Pro, which also runs hotter than a regular MacBook due to the dedicated video chip…)

    • ay2z says:

      yes, the problem Apple had, was with the much earlier laptops, pre books.

    • aussie says:

      A strange workaround for the loose connection problem — get a universal power adaptor. These come with a collection of different plugs for different brands of machines.

      Plug in your Toshiba plug and tape it in with duck tape. It sticks out about 1 inch. Then only remove the power unit from this. It is a bit of a nuisance for travel, but fine around the house.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      my macbook pro about set itself on fire one night about six months ago – scorch marks up the back and all. it was DOA when i took it in for servicing. the mag safe had to be replaced every 8 months or so. and guess what? i’m saving the cash to buy another one.

    • Deborah says:

      I am on my fourth laptop in five years. They are not built for constant use and you are right that the power cord connector is often the problem. I have had a Lenovo now for eight months. The screws on the bottom kept falling out. It is currently broken on one side where the screw fell out and whatever the screw went into inside the laptop fell out too. We called Lenovo and they want us to pay for one way shipping to them which we don’t think is right, since it is still under warranty. Luckily we bought the two year warranty from Office Depot which covers accidental damage and also offers a free battery and power cord replacement during that two years. We had to tell them the laptop was dropped in order for them to cover the damage although I don’t think that is why the screw fell out in the first place and if it was dropped, that was months ago. This is the second time the screw just fell out for no good reason. They are sending a box for us to send it in to them this week. We will see what they say once it goes in to them. We told them when we bought it that we needed something tough — something that would stand up to being powered on 12 hours or so a day. The others had problems with the batteries heating up, battery dying really fast, power cord shorting out, keys popping off, power cord connection inside the unit breaking. The warranty on this Lenovo was the solution Office Depot offered. When I can afford it, I will be getting a MAC.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I’ve been all over the world with my Toshiba laptop – carry it in a padded backpack, use it every day. No problemas.

        • racerrodig says:

          I have an acer Aspire 7741Z that I bought in Sept 2010 and have not had so much as a whimper from it…..Luck ??

          Rocket fast and reliable…..Hmmmmmm.

  41. Rachael says:

    Glad you’re back Professor. Was getting kinda worried.

    • Rachael says:

      LOL – Haven’t heard that in AGES!!!

    • omg this makes me cry!!! i never knew this was a real song, i would listen to the song for welcome back kotter and change the channel, cas i really didn’t like the show, but i just love this song!!! THANK YOU COLIN!! finally i have a copy of this song!!

  42. Xena says:

    A reminder; from Judge Nelson’s March 4, 201Order Denying Defendant’s Motion Regarding Deposition of Benjamin Crump, Esquire;

    In most legal contexts, to depose opposing counsel, “the party seeking to take the deposition [must show] that (1) no other means exist to obtain the information than to depose opposing counsel, (citations omitted) (2) the information sought is relevant and nonprivileged; and (3) the information is crucial to preparation of the case.” (citations omitted)
    The three part test carries a very heavy burden.

    O’Mara’s motion to reconsider infers that attorney Crump is privileged to a conspiracy involving Bill Lee and Wolfinger. For his basis, O’Mara includes a letter written by attorney Crump to the DOJ. That would be the means existing to O’Mara to obtain the information. So it seems, O’Mara is trying to circumvent the DOJ’s and FBI’s refusal of giving him information of an open investigation, by deposing attorney Crump.

    Just a thought — Maybe Blackwell should contact the U.S. Attorney for that district to see if he/she will intervene.

    • Jun says:

      It seems it can easily be done by


      I do not see how it is relevant or material and the information is privileged and the defense is asking for hearsay, since it is not from w8’s mouth

      I do not see how it is crucial to the case because Crump was not there or is a witness to events

      • Xena says:

        @Jun. I hope that attorney Blackwell again, takes O’Mara and West to school.

      • PYorck says:

        Their arguments seems to boil down to: “Of course we could ask her, but based on nothing in particular we hope believe that whatever she tells us will change everything and it will be completely impossible to deal with it in that deposition without additional investigation.”

        But isn’t that always theoretically possible? I don’t really see why that deserves any special consideration here.

      • Jun says:

        Too bad so sad though because considering that the cellphone Trayvon had that night was by his body, it shows that Trayvon had it with him, in his hand, during the 8 minute altercation that Fogen created and instigated, until killing the kid

        This shows the conversation did indeed exist and that her testimony is supportive from forensic evidence and witness testimony

        Still does not change the fact that Fogen’s original statement, was that they were by the clubhouse, and then Trayvon began running away from the clubhouse area, and while Fogen was by the clubhouse, he is heard getting out of his car, yelling curse words at the kid, while chasing him on foot with a gun and a flashlight

      • Rachael says:

        Could they just be trying to waste time so they can say they just are not ready for trial? What happens if they say that? Will it happen anyway? I mean the fact that judge has told them several times what to do and when to do it makes it seem pretty clear they can’t use it for an appeal, but will they have to go on even if they say they aren’t ready? And since they can’t use that as a case for appeal, why would they do that. I guess they wouldn’t. I don’t know what they heck they are doing.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        Witness 8 is not alleging a conspiracy between the police and the local DA to conceal evidence in the case, so there’s no point in asking her about it.

        Crump, however, has made such allegations, and it would be a gross dereliction of duty for the defense attorneys not to get to the bottom of that.

        If evidence exists that has not been brought forward, that has been deliberately concealed, you certainly don’t want to have it pop up out of nowhere while you’re in the middle of trying to defend your client at trial.

        O’Mara and West have a duty to their client to ask Crump about it now instead of just waiting to be blindsided by it later.


      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I’ve updated my time line to include sunset, civil, nautical and astronomical twilight ends. Now I’ve got to add in the phone calls [time; who call, length of time]. I’m also going to change the walking speed down from the bcclist’s earlier 4.4 ft/sec. to LLMPapa’s more reasonable 3.4 ft/sec. as soon as I find his speed choice again. Fortunately that doesn’t alter all the times on the time line, because they are all times fixed by the documents where they are found.
        Anyway you can find it here:

        Also remember that due to the overcast conditions that day, ambient light levels will be somewhat diminished from normal. Except at civil twilight, I’d guess, because the overcast would scatter light and create a bright overhead with pretty good ambient light at street level.
        Perhaps we need a meteorologist to evaluate.

      • Malisha says:

        Unitron, I completely disagree. West’s and O’Mara’s client is Fogen and he is charged with murder. He is NOT charged with a cover-up or any conspiracy. Defending him at trial has nothing to do with any conspiracy. If any other parties were charged with any other conspiracy, and West and O’Mara were hired to represent THEM, they would have an obligation to find out all there was to find out about said alleged conspiracy.

        This here case is about a murder. It was already OVER when any possible conspiracy to cover it up might have begun. Crump has no information on the murder other than what the evidence of the murder gives him; the same thing it gives West and O’Mara and no more and no less.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          If you were defending someone and there was supposedly a conspiracy to suppress or conceal evidence in the case, wouldn’t you want to know what that evidence was before going to trial instead of having it pop up as a complete surprise during the trial?


      • Malisha says:

        Unitron, evidence of the crime that may have been suppressed is not, at this point, necessary for the prosecution, which can prove murder-2 without it. Evidence of self-defense cannot be concealed by Crump, who never HAD any of it. Evidence of self-defense was also not known to DeeDee, unless she lied NOT about what she and Crump talked about, but about something she overheard that she has NOT revealed — thus, the only way to get at it would be to depose DeeDee.

      • leander22 says:

        Witness 8 is not alleging a conspiracy between the police and the local DA to conceal evidence in the case, so there’s no point in asking her about it.

        Crump, however, has made such allegations, and it would be a gross dereliction of duty for the defense attorneys not to get to the bottom of that.

        unitron, I wouldn’t say to conceal evidence, maybe not even look for evidence against GZ, to close the case quietly?

        Basically I agree with you. Meaning I attacks on Crump and DeeDee had to be expected. Her calls obviously put the most interesting twist to whole story. It is so obvious they would like to have her go away quietly, find something to impeach her.

        To attack the parents without at least a little bit of dirt would backfire heavily, PR wise. They couldn’t dare to state that Tracy or Sybrina manipulated her. Remember, they didn’t get any addresses thus have no chance to get a little dirt on them to use against Trayvon, e.g. bad parents that did not take their educational roles seriously, neglected him badly. The whole neigbhorhood knows he was constantly involved in fights, attacking people at random. Which I am sure GZ is longing for, who has involved himself in the case. 😉

        The whole motion is about finding evidence for dirt, evidence for witness manipulation, which is laid at the feet of BC. You attack who you have at least a little bit dirt on, there is only one slight modification in the core theme: Dee lied, Crump lied. Maybe that is a start from their or JM’s perspective. The problem is, the simple fact that Tracy Martin asked Benjamin Crump on or shortly after February 28, suggests to me that the “conspiracy” you are alluding to above, or that the defense is alluding to, was the parents impression, thus his clients, impression.

        The same is true for the initial contact with DeeDee. Obviously Tracy Martin first called her told her what he just discovered and then asked her if she would agree to speak to his lawyer, if he could pass on her number? I seriously doubt he did not try to contact her once he discovered her calls. Who would have been able to silently pass on such an information to his lawyer?

        Whatever Crump did later, he did as counsel of the parents. He collected evidence, looked for and found support for Tracy’s impression … he made it public. … Not always too wisely, but always effectively.

        When I first read the motion I had the impression they dropped the name Tracy Martin once. But skimming the text again, to get closer to their argument, I couldn’t find it again.

        The problem I see is, that it is close to impossible to disentangle Crump from his clients and/or DeeDee as neatly as they want. Crump’s activities from the very start were something analog to opposing counsel, while not factually opposing counsel, at least analog in intent to the prosecution in that they demanded GZ was put on trial from the moment Wolfinger went public stating everything supported GZ’s narrative.

        While defense necessarily argued “the opposite” along the lines of GZ’s narrative, starting with the first bond hearing. Remember, O’Mara following “the Dersh” at al already then he attacked the affidavit of Angela Corey.

        Blackwell put the family and thus their lawyer as opposing counsel much better than I can.

        So I think they won’t manage to make him a not-opposing party. Would they be so hard on him, if he wasn’t? I ask you? But yes, Nelson has to find a solution to their “third party” argument, and their “three prongs” argument among others.

        Their real problem is they cannot attack the parents directly and they are ultimately protected by Crump, but they hope that Crump makes a mistake, that will help them in the impeachment of DeeDee. It feels they state that clearly.


        Dee lies /hospital: The information leading up to Witness 8 lying about her hospital visit (and logically her closeness with Mr. Martin) are directly relevant to this case.

        I am not sure if I find that a logical deduction, maybe in the universe of “upright Americans”, not in mine.


        Crump lies in his affidavit /spoken passage not recorded by him: “Mr. Crump’s assertions (many of which are intimately relevant to this case such as, the circumstances surrounding how Witness 8 was discovered, the circumstances surrounding how the recording was made, who was present, whether her story was influenced by anything other than her own recollections of what she heard etc.) are relevant, as they go to the heart of the case, as Mr. Crump was the first one to interact with a significant witness in this case, and these assertions should be made in a proper deposition.


        Crump is no witness to the case per se, he only made the public via the media and then FBI and state aware of DeeDee. It always comes down to DeeDee or Tracy Martin for that matter. If BC or TM influenced her, they have to ask her or TM.

        So yes and no. The argument that he has no attorney relationship with DeeDee or that he waived his privilege by going public is not really valid. Since all these people had to do is consent, that’s even in the Florida law they cite. They are still the people he has to ask. If they want to find out that he has manipulated her, which the ABC tape does not really tell us. They can ask about it.

        Here is your concern 23. g.:

        It is of the utmost importance for the preparation of the defense case to know if Witness 8 has been influenced in any way that may affect her testimony, inadvertently or otherwise, It is the definition of relevancy in a criminal case for the defense to be aware of any undue influence on the opposing party’s Witness Mr. Crump possesses relevant information that will hopefully help allay that concern.

        Witness to the parents despair? So they really only want to allay their concern that he has manipulated her? Really? That is all they want. Maybe we should ask Crump to tell them what DeeDee says, which is something they suggest they have to ask him. Again: Why not her?

        I would enjoy a hearing on the matter.

      • Jun says:

        It seems the issue they are trying to make, could easily be fixed by asking Deedee because the affidavit is fairly thorough and according to the ABC tape, Crump was not lying, and he did indeed start and stop his recorder to get a better recording. The motion seems to address issues that have already been taken care of.

    • elcymoo says:

      @Xena: But Crump isn’t even ‘opposing counsel’ in this case yet, is he? I understand that he would be if or when Trayvon’s family filed a civil suit against GZ, but O’Mara’s just gaming for time and more donor dolars, IMO.

      • Xena says:


        @Xena: But Crump isn’t even ‘opposing counsel’ in this case yet, is he? I understand that he would be if or when Trayvon’s family filed a civil suit against GZ, but O’Mara’s just gaming for time and more donor dolars, IMO.

        At a hearing, the defense argued that attorney Crump was surrogate for State prosecutors. When it came to their desire to oppose him, they took an opposite position that he is not opposing counsel. Judge Nelson decided that Crump is opposing counsel.

        Crump represents the parents of the victim. The defense represents the accused murderer and killer of Crump’s clients’ son. Yes, he is opposite of the defense.

        The more I think about it, I’m actually now thinking that GZ is pimping out his wasp nest for money, insisting that O’Mara does what they want, because he is the one who goes hungry and has to live on the street without their money.

      • Jun says:

        Simplest way to look at it

        Is Crump on the same side as Omara?

        No he is not, therefore, he is opposing counsel

    • Malisha says:

      O’Mara is not just working for Fogen. He is working for Lee and Smith and Wolfinger. He is always trying to find out how to undo or derail the federal investigation of the SPD etc. That is one of his main purposes. Check it out.

      • Xena says:

        @Malisha Re: O’Mara

        He is always trying to find out how to undo or derail the federal investigation of the SPD etc. That is one of his main purposes. Check it out.

        IMO, O’Mara is trying to circumvent the ongoing federal investigation, and that includes corruption in the SPD in addition to acts committed by GZ. O’Mara should know that whatever the feds are investigating will not be a part of the State’s case in trying GZ for 2nd degree murder.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The only conspiracy seems to be the one that formed to avoid charging Fogen with anything. Good luck, GZLC!

      • Aunt Bea says:

        True dat!

        I would be equally outraged if Crump urged DD to embellish her recollections.

        Although I have a problem with her not coming forward with the info, I don’t think the state needs her. Just the phone records.

    • Jun says:

      As far as the federal investigation issue of the motion, it seems far fetched to use that as a reason to depose Crump

      He is an opposing counsel and has a right to work product

      and I do not see what Crump could do besides, show him the letter he gave to the feds, and any conversations between the feds and him, are hush hush, and the court time with feds are trial by ambush

      It seems futile

      • Xena says:


        It seems futile

        It is futile for GZ’s claim of self-defense. It is not beneficial for GZ in terms of whether he violated federal law because with each theory that attacks the victim, attorney Crump and Trayvon’s parents, it drives-in that GZ and his Feign Team are promoting White Supremacist agenda.

  43. Romaine says:

    funny it disappeared when I typed that message to you all, ill have to monitor that.

  44. Romaine says:

    have any of you ever checked to see if your pc is being monitored by the FBI, i noticed today just minutes ago when i came to this page there is an FBI surveilance WiFi network on my list of wireless connections…can someone tell me what that is about?

    • willisnewton says:

      My advice: run for you life. The black helicopters are coming within the hour…

      Or, your neighbors have a sense of humor. “FBI surveillance van” is a common hipster joke making the rounds these days as a name for a personal wifi network.

    • ay2z says:

      easy fix, wrap computer in tin foil, be sure to use the heavy weight on the keyboard, and cover with plastic wrap to prevent fingers on keys from tearing the foil.

      Be sure to trim fingernails close and buff edges to smooth polish, watch out for jewellery and keyboard wandering cats most especially. Impress the shape of keys carefully, and add stickers to the keys to mark locations, if needed.

      Then go out to the street, and offer the guys in the first unmarked panel van you see, a cup of hot tea, Once found out, they may go away on their own.


    • Xena says:


      surveilance WiFi network on my list of wireless connections…can someone tell me what that is about?

      It means that the FBI is using a router somewhere in your vicinity. You wouldn’t happen to be in or around Jacksonville, FL, or in the State of Washington or Kansas, would you?

    • aussie says:

      If it’s the FBI they will NOT be announcing themselves. (Until the black helicopter phase of proceedings).

    • Malisha says:

      In the early 90s I was being watched by some dork from the FBI for some dorky reason (I don’t even know and I don’t even care). So they actually DID send white vans with disks on top and shit like that. And “homeless people” with $60 haircuts and nice shoes. So, someone asked me, “Aren’t you scared?” I answered, “Hell no. If they thought I was a threat I’d be dead already and the cause of death would be ‘natural causes.’ If they want something on me they can make it up from scratch. If they are watching me they don’t know what the Hell they’re doing. There’s nothing to watch and nothing to support the expense they’re going to. It’s good for a laugh and it’s a story I will tell in the future.” So here I am telling it.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ha. I got watched by a private detective for a few days in the 90s. Hilarious. I used to wave to the guy as I went in and out of the house. He followed me to school and work – I waved to him then too. What a dweeb.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @ two sides

          i just gotta love anyone who uses the word ‘dweeb’ 🙂 sorry for your experience there, but your commentary made my day.

        • Xena says:

          @Two sides. Some years ago the sheriff came to my house to question me about a neighbor. I didn’t know them from Adam’s houseplant. They left their card and my house. I called a friend who works for the sheriff’s dept. and is loaned out to the FBI on projects. He recognized the names of the sheriff being in his department and I asked, “so what is my neighbor up to? Am I safe or are they making bombs or something?”

          Turns out that her husband worked for the government and requested a medical leave. They just wanted to make sure he wasn’t out mowing the lawn or climbing up on a ladder. LOL!!

    • Aunt Bea says:

      So, what have you been into, Romaine? You’re amongst friends here. LOL

      I believe ya’. I’ve had bizarre things happen to my home and work PCs, my home phone, my personal vehicle and my professional work product. No reasonable explanation for any of it.

      Could be a rogue employee somewhere, anywhere or an all out investigation into you, a loved one or your employer/employee.

      You may never know.

      Thanks, Patriot Act….

    • KittySP says:

      @Romaine, could be they have someone close by under surveillance…I’ve often noticed local police wifi appear in my list of connections.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “…could be they have someone close by under surveillance…I’ve often noticed local police wifi appear in my list of connections.”

        A properly set up wireless router should not be broadcasting its SSID (unless it’s a deliberately promiscuous setup like an internet cafe), but anybody setting one up can set the SSID to say FBI or KGB or santaclausenet or UnBL4ckH3L1C0pTerz or PayForYourOwnBandwidth or most anything to which they want to set it.

        There is no “truth in advertising” guarantee that pertains to those settings.

        But there are probably a couple of 13 year old boys behind it who think it’s hilarious to do stuff like that and that it means that they’re elite hackers.

        Think of it as the cyber version of calling the drug store tobacco counter and asking if they have Prince Albert in a can, or wanting to know if your refrigerator is running.


  45. ladystclaire says:

    Is there any way possible that the prosecution can just drop DD as a witness in this case and just use their cell phone records. I know there were things that Trayvon told her about Fogen and his following him by car and then on foot. the state has a solid case against this POS with or without her testimony.

    This defense team has turned this case as well as the American justice system into a mockery as well as a joke, by taking orders from a bunch of *POINTY HEADED* bigoted racist, instead of staying within the scope of the laws of this country as well as those of the state of Florida.

    Both attorneys for this defendant should be facing some sort of sanctions for such conduct, from the Florida bar. seeing that they have chosen to act in an unprofessional manner, then they should be facing some sort of sanctions.

    • Jun says:

      There is no need to worry. They can present their case without her but the defense is no threat to her during trial. DD’s testimony is supported by forensic and witness evidence, which makes her testimony credible. They can give her a lawyer, to object on grounds of assuming facts not in evidence, and irrelevant and immaterial issues. They can not use it against her in trial anyways. The state can also object on top.

    • ay2z says:

      Just read a comment, that a defense to a mis-statement in an interview, is a ‘retraction’. But don’t know if an interview includes under oath interview.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      The court will not want to create a chilling atmosphere and therefore give the defense great latitude on how they proceed. However, when the court has reason to believe that the defense is engaging in stall tactics and failing to perform tasks it claims are needed, but could have performed already before, and tries to use their own failures as reason for continuance, it’s not likely to happen at all.

      Remember, the judge can hardly get at the attorney’s without harming the defendant as well. MOM shenanigans are probably designed to draw the judges ire, to create an appeal-able issue or perhaps get her to recused. Their games are not working, they’ll be on trial in June.

  46. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< Meow! Glad you're back professor! You missed a minor skirmish; nothing important. At what point can the judge smack MOM with contempt for filing the same BS over and over?

  47. dianetrotter says:

    My Toshiba sucks up a battery in a couple of months. I had to replace the adapter.

    If prosecution can prove from phone records that DeeDee and TM were connected, do they really need to put her on the stand. If he was on the phone with DeeDee, that fact would be inconsistent with him “being up to no good” and how can you “mma style” someone while you are on the cellphone?

    Why not depose DeeDee first, then, if there is a need, request to depose Crump?

    • Tzar says:

      Why not depose DeeDee first, then, if there is a need, request to depose Crump?

      because then the ruse of “the missing hospital records” will be explained away and there goes this whole motion

      • Jun says:

        LMAo that’s what the judge and the state have been repeatedly trying to tell them

        Go straight to the source of the information seeked, which is w8, and then it would be straightened out

        The state can only present hearsay in regards to the issue, because they can’t present her statements for her, and she has to answer to the questions herself, as she is the only party with the knowledge

        The state can only answer for themselves, and the defense asked them and the court for the records, so if the state never had them for the defense to obtain, what more can they say?

        A juror will look at it with the judge and think “what the hell does this hospital thing have to do with him killing this kid?”

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Is there a trial requirement that a Class A witness must be deposed by both prosecution and defense? If that were so, then refusing to depose Witness 8 might somehow disqualify her as a Class A witness.

      • Malisha says:

        No problem; deposing a witness is a right the defense has, but it has no responsibility to depose any particular witness. There are plenty of cases in which public defenders are appointed and they don’t want to spend any time on the case (other than standing in court and telling the judge their client is pleading guilty) so they don’t depose ANY witnesses or probably even look at a witness list. The prosecution can call a witness without the defense deposing them or even chanting their name three times at midnight.

        The defense is trying to drive attention in every direction except to the evidence. What better way than creating little scuffles about everything except the crime that was committed and the evidence that was gathered?

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Thanks for correcting that mistaken idea.

  48. Judy75201 says:

    I think he is simply trying to create a diversion, and it looks like he is doing something. He wants to convince (again) the donors that fogen is being wronged, when in actuality O’Mara is simply not following the rules. His base is racist, and they want Crump to be the bad guy (even tho he committed no murder). I don’t believe DD is even needed to convict the murderer.

    • ay2z says:

      The more people who go to the gzlegal site, share and enhance the chat level, like us, digging into details, the better the defense likes it.

      We don’t need the details of that motion, they want to depose, that’s it. JMHO. I don’t like going to that site, that’s what they want.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “The more people who go to the gzlegal site, share and enhance the chat level, like us, digging into details, the better the defense likes it.”


        Are you saying there’s a benefit to the defense in “non-pro-defense” persons visiting the defense’s site, or that they benefit somehow from those people visiting the site and then talking about the case elsewhere?


        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Unitron -.


          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Is that “Yes, there’s a benefit to the defense in “non-pro-defense” persons visiting the defense’s site”, or “Yes, they benefit somehow from those people visiting the site and then talking about the case elsewhere”, or both?

            If so, I don’t see how they get anything out of it but their bandwidth used up faster, which might keep a supporter from gettting through.

            Unless there’s some new addition to the definition of the word “benefit” that contradicts the rest of it.

            If enough “non-pro-defense” persons, like say a bunch of some of those who post here, were to visit the defense site right around the same time, it might even be considered a distributed denial of service attack, the legalities of which should be explored before before anyone considers the co-ordination of embarking on such a venture.


          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Unitron –

            Yes — as “In a misguided way, they like the extra traffic.” Shows them attention. Important for some folks. They may think they can convert Trayvonistas to Zimmervermin.

            He, they are unrealistic about most everything else,why wouldn’t they believe this?

            I don’t see this site gnerating a FlahMob to overwhelm their site(s). We can barely keep up with the thousands of messages generated here.

            So, – that’s my “Yes.”

      • vickie s. votaw says:

        I won’t go to their sites, I can’t stand the hate that they spew. I won’t put any energy into their trip. I’ve had an iMac since 2005 with no problems, I think the best thing is to have a friend who is a computer genius handy, when my little brother was alive, he could walk me thru any problem I had with my pcs. I’m glad you are back because word press is a bitch to follow after days of you being gone, prof. One thing, i can read something & when i respond, my response ends up far away from what i commented on. its hard to sort out everyones responses. I don’t know of a better avenue to use, and the inspiration & information given & shared here is vital for healthy growth of sanity.

      • leander22 says:

        Vicky, Piranha, I have no problem at all to go to gzlegal. I take whatever files are up first. Usually they put up their own motions faster than the circuit court, where it has to take a few administrative steps before going online. Easily accessible and fast download. I could imagine it slowed down considerably after America woke up.

        I am absolutely with unitron response.

        Besides their supporters. what is most on their minds are the multiplier (communication theory) forces out there, in other words media. So no, they surely prefer being easily accessible. Besides, I never had any problems downloading from their side. I could imagine media checks them just as regularly as I do, when something is to be expected. Obviously every move they make means news.

    • If things doesn’t go their way watch them ask for another judge.

  49. pat deadder says:

    I think you deserve a week off anyway.Just wish it could have been your idea and not the computer’s..I don’t understand O’mara’s logic doesn’t he soon need to prepare for his client’s defense One thing i will say selfishly if Mr Blackwell has to appear again I could listen to him for hours.

    • pat deadder says:

      Didn’t Mr Blackwell say something like Every time opposing council in a criminal case has been deposed a trial court has been reversed or something like that.

  50. Lonnie Starr says:

    Welcome back Professor. Keep an eye on ebay, every once in a while there’s a chance to grab a back up computer really cheap.

  51. RobertSF says:

    I’m glad you’re back in business. I wondered what had happened. Toshiba used to be the leader in laptops, but that was a good ten, fifteen years ago. The T-1000 was a classic!

    For what it’s worth, is not available because it has exceeded its bandwidth.

  52. racerrodig says:

    Welcome back !! Never had a Toshiba computer but I have 2 big screen projection TV’s and it’s a good thing I bought the extended warranty. Both have been replaced twice. Every time as a power transformer meltdown. Now that they have been upgraded to bulletproof they are obsolete……great picture…..but obsolete.

  53. Tee says:

    I posted this on the pervious post about the defense saying that Dee Dee lied. I knew this was their reason for saying that she lied about something so minute. MOM wanted to use her lie to get to Crump, they want to prove some sort of a conspiracy with Crump at the head of it. If they can say that Dee Dee lied at the behest of Crump then they figure, check mate. They are hoping to impeach Crump to prove that all of this was just a big set up. I’d tell MOM , this I know that you are a smart man, you’ve gained success in you career so if by chance you have someone keeping an eye on this blog, listen to me and listen well RUN! Before these people take you down with them. even if Dee Dee never opens her mouth which she has a right to, her phone record proves that she was indeed on the phone with Trayvon when the altercation started which blows your client timeline out of the water. Ok even if you still don’t get it let me put it this way you can’t say two words to MR. Crump I’m smh! You need to stop listening to your client and make him listen to you or you need to walk no run.

    • Malisha says:

      Tee, they’re acting like the killing of Trayvon Martin is not the crime in question; they’re acting like the charging of Fogen with a felony is the crime in question, and they want to get to the BOTTOM of who DID THAT! If people were not so stupid, that would be transparent and laughable. Since, however, people ARE so stupid, it’s a problem and must be addressed, over and over and over and over…

      THE CRIME was the killing of Trayvon Martin which the State says was Murder-2. It took place on 2/26/2012. Fogen is “the suspect.” Period.

  54. bettykath says:

    My Toshiba works well. I regularly back up important folders – family pictures and genealogy research are the ones I update most often and I have at least two backup copies of then. Which reminds me, I need to do the backups again.

  55. dbj says:

    Professor considering the legal play put on by the defense is it possible that if (when) GZ is convicted that he can sue Omara/West and request a new trial based on ineffective consuel?

    • RobertSF says:

      I’m not the professor, but it seems to me that, given what a weak case Zimmerman has, his counsel has actually gone beyond the call of duty.

      • ay2z says:

        Wouldn’t bet on it, and wouldn’t bet on a conviction either, they may get the Seminole Six empanelled. 😦 People put the cart before the horse in the last high profile FL case and asked the same questions. Juries do what they will, it’s possible he will be off and running after trial (to the first TV station that will pay him and put him up in a fancy resort.

    • Malisha says:

      THey’ll definitely MAKE the request for new trial, and then a habeas corpus, based on effective assistance of counsel (6th amendment claim) because everybody does it; but it will fail.

      • It all boils down to…..Did fogen murder Trayvon?……YES

        Self defense?………..NO

        Had fogen stayed in his truck and OBSERVED as per NHW rules, would Trayvon would still be alive?……….YES

        Did fogen pursue Trayvon?……YES by his own admission NEN “Are you following him?”….fogen “YES”

        Again another violation of the NHW rules fogen was the captain of? YES

        Would Trayvon have been murdered had the NHW captain followed yet another rule of the NHW…..NO WEAPONS? NO

        DID fogen bring this all on himself by NOT FOLLOWING the rules of the same organization he was CAPTAIN of?…….YES

        All the rest is commentary….up to and including, did fogen have to take any kind of test to be the NHW captain?…..

  56. Nef05 says:

    Does anyone have a link to the motion, other than GZlegal? I’m getting a bandwidth error when I click on it there, and the motion is not up on the court’s website yet.

    • lady2soothe says:

      Glad to see you back and up and running Professor

      @ Nef05
      I’m getting the same error

      the site owner reaching his/her bandwidth limit

      • Nef05 says:

        Just out of curiosity, L2L, do you know what that means?

        • lady2soothe says:

          Sounds to me like they’ve used too much space and don’t have enough left over to publish the entire document without either buying more space or deleting previously published material… That’s just a guess though as I really don’t know too much or understand stuff like that.

      • aussie says:

        Bandwidth — traffic on the internet. When you buy an internet service, for yourself or for your hosted website, it comes with X amount of download and X amount of upload traffic allowance. Even “unlimited” plans have some limits or throttle (slow) you down beyond a point.

        Everything on gzlegalcase is in unnecessarily huge file formats and takes ages to download. I recall some item that was 28MB from them and available for around 5MB somewhere else.

        So, too many people have tried downloading these huge files from their site, and they’ve run out of their upload quota.

        What a slick, professional and classy operation they are, all round.

    • ay2z says:

      I have a copy, but don’t have a place to share it. The motion is 18 pages, the number of pages included, is 58.

    • gbrbsb says:

      I think all the blog clicked the professor’s link cause same happened here a few hours back but it’s free now.

    • lady2soothe says:

      Shadow13’s post about Morph was deleted (they’re verifying if it’s bogus) I can’t find him on my friends or fans list either so it’s more than likely he’s okay other than probably banned. Will you check your Fans & Friends list and let me know.

      • Nef05 says:

        Unfortunately, I’ve read it’s been confirmed by Darlin.

      • Really? I checked my friends/fans/followers list and couldn’t find Morpheus anywhere

        • lady2soothe says:

          I just got a message from Nef05 and Darlinsas verified he’s passed on. But it still seems VERY strange all his friends/fans/followers list info. is gone. It wouldn’t seem like the first thing a family would do is take down a silly HP account when so many other things need to be done.

        • lady2soothe says:

          This was just posted.

          darlinsass : Yes, Morph passed away early yesterday morning of respiratory failure.

          Rip my dear friend.

          • racerrodig says:

            I have to say Morph was a giant among us. I first conversed with him on HP back in March?? or there about’s…..wisdom, the man had wisdom and a way with words.

          • lady2soothe says:

            He was awesome. I’m happy he won’t need to suffer any longer but he’ll be missed by so many of us.

          • racerrodig says:

            I had heard that he was fairly sick and he was not on very often sometime around Sept. ??

          • lady2soothe says:

            He’d been in the hospital toward the end of summer/early fall for quite a while, then a week or so
            ago had another bout and spent several days back in the hospital. He’d been posting frequently, strong well thought out comments with lots of infomation, and then a notice went we (thought I’d saved it but no) from Shadow13 (2 Fans opened account that moring) saying Morpheus Flux, a wonderful Grandfather for his 3 grandson, and his best friend had passed away that morning from Respiratory Arrest/Failure…. No one was really sure at first if it was another sock or truth. But it was such a heartfelt message most of us believed it and sent notes to the family…. It was suggest by Hope we contact HP and have the verify info. meanwhile Shadow13’s post was removed just in case.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            lady2S — one would hope that such news is not someone’s idea of a sick joke, but i will readily admit skepticism. as someone pointed out yesterday, would any family in a time of such crisis even bother to log on to the huffpost to delete his account? i know my husband would have more important things to tend to even if he could likely guess my log in. had the message come from someone posting under his account, i think i would find it more believable. also, the name ‘shadow13’ sounds ominous and hokey to me.

            i do know that morph had been ill, the thought of his suffering and death sadden me, i liked him very much. i know that this news was somehow confirmed by other posters, but i don’t know how. i guess as his full name would suggest, i am in a state of flux about this news. something does not seem to add up.

          • lady2soothe says:

            It is true, Morph passed on. Darlin’ in in contact with the family. Apparently to keep the teenager(s) busy and give them (Shadow13) something to let them know they could be of help, he was inlisted to open an HP account and let Morph’s Followers and Friends know.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            thanks, lady, for clearing that up. knowing that darlin made contact with the family is all i need to know. the details i had heard up until that point had sounded sketchy and i tend to be somewhat of a skeptic of innerweb gospel.

            it is truly sad news for me to hear. morph was a mighty fine man.

          • lady2soothe says:

            As much as I’d rather hear it was one of the vile socks doing their usual dirty work, unfortunately it’s true, we have lost the most beloved member of Team Justice for Trayvon. EVERYONE is heartsick.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            morph was definitely a voice for the voiceless in this world.

            as much as i now loathe the ‘black voices’ section of the huffpost (it used to be a lovely place to visit and i miss that dearly), i will stop in and pay my respects. thank you again for clearing up any ambiguity for me.

          • lady2soothe says:

            You’re welcome, I know they’ll be many who’ll be happy you stopped in to pay your respects.

  57. Xena says:

    I do not believe Judge Nelson will change her mind and authorize Crump’s deposition, but I would not be surprised if she does.

    Had the defense deposed Witness 8, maybe Judge Nelson would give their motion serious concern and grant it. However, the defense has failed to follow her instructions. What is O’Mara trying to circumvent by not deposing DeeDee before bringing a motion to reconsider?

    Also, I didn’t look but did O’Mara serve Blackwell on the motion?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I looked at it and believe Blackwell was served.

      Even the Fogen supporters are speculating whether OM deposed W8 or not. Some say he did last Friday and others say that doesn’t happen until the end of the month.

      I think this motion spurs on the lag in donations during this quiet period before the next hearing.

      • Jun says:

        I agree

        I’d rather conclusively find out everything before jumping to a conclusion as a lot of their motions are lies, slander, illusions, images, smoke, mirrors

        Remember when they claimed the state refused them the cell phone forensics, and then it was discovered that they were invited with them to go watch the cell phone forensics be done and the defense refused

        It’s a little irrelevant but when trial comes they can use all their motions as proof that the defense is not credible in what they claim of anything

      • dbj says:

        “I think this motion spurs on the lag in donations during this quiet period before the next hearing.”

        As others have stated, these donations are what is propping the defense up. I predict that at some point people will stop falling for the okie doke and stop sending money in sufficient amounts.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Some maybe. Others will fund Fogen’s slammer snacks for twenty-five years.

      • Xena says:

        @Two sides

        I think this motion spurs on the lag in donations during this quiet period before the next hearing.

        Ahha!! I tell ya, O’Mara reminds me of a story I heard once about a “chili pimp.” I asked, “What is a chili pimp.” The answer is, after the whores come back for the night with the money, the pimp has enough to buy a bowl of chili.

        • racerrodig says:

          Well they may have enough money for a bowl of chili, but he ain’t got no bread for no beverage….

          • Xena says:


            Well they may have enough money for a bowl of chili, but he ain’t got no bread for no beverage….

            Neither crackers.

          • racerrodig says:

            They’re so poor, they can’t even pay attention, but we knew that already, and I heard SheLie is so broke she’s been window shopping at the Dollar Store.

          • Xena says:


            … and I heard SheLie is so broke she’s been window shopping at the Dollar Store.

            What? GZ didn’t give her the user name and password to his paypal account again?

          • racerrodig says:

            It’s his money and he’s keeping it. She’s on her own.

          • Xena says:


            It’s his money and he’s keeping it. She’s on her own.

            Right, and ShelLIE didn’t realize that if GZ had not been arrested where he could not access his paypal account, that he never would have given her the user name and password. She would still be living off the Ostermans — but at least she would not be awaiting trial on a charge that can put her behind bars for 5 years.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Lol, since most good chili is hot, hot, hot… a chili with no need for a drink has to be lousy and cheap.

      • lurker says:

        @ Jun–speaking of cell phone forensics, I wonder what anyone makes of O’Mara’s release of cell phone photos last week. Clearly he chose not to release anything meaningful (and referred to this info being protected by the court), but what’s up with the pics? Is there some conclusion I’m supposed to get that I’m missing?

    • Trained Observer says:

      As briefly referenced by the professor, I think maybe MOM’s trying to provoke a tiff generating an outburst from Nelson, so she’ll go the Lester route. Then, as the hope goes, MOM can get yet a new judge and a continuance until next year. Hope Nelson holds steady, and just sweetly asks if DeeDee has been deposed yet, and if not, why not.

      Super question Zena on whether Blackwell got served. Don’t remember reading so, but must go back for a look-see.

      • ay2z says:

        Fact is, Robert Z Sr said on TV, that he did not believe anyone was on the phone with the victim and he implied lies at that time, saying why would someone wait so long to come forward.

        They need to get answers other than the simple truth, to fix this Dee Dee problem.

      • leander22 says:

        Don’t remember reading so, but must go back for a look-see.

        Nothing about copies to anyone as far as I can tell.

        But I agree with the Professor. This is a very weak motion. Didn’t West do them before? Some of the argument Nelson has already rejected like Crump’s media statements having any relevance. Curious so mishandling of the case inside SPD suddenly matters since it could have deprived the defendant of his rights? I thought most inside agreed with his narrative not long ago. Lots of insinuations. So Crump may have possibly tricked DeeDee? Why exactly would he want to anger her? Would any attorney trick a witness for their cause that way?

        Witness 8 likely does not know of Mr. Crump’s dealings in how this interview even came to take place and the other circumstances surrounding it.

        Even this is clearly a misguided argument, note 1:

        A person who has a privilege against the disclosure of a confidential matter or communication waives the privilege if the person, or the person’s predecessor while holder of the privilege, voluntarily discloses or makes the communication when he or she does not have a reasonable expectation of privacy, or consents to disclosure of, any significant part of the matter of communication. This is not applicable when the disclosure is itself a privileged communication. Fla. Stat § 90.507

        Obviously disclosure all involved consented to disclosure in this case. It was all their early actions were about. No way would Crump have done it without DeeDee’s consent. It’s so silly to even suggest it.

        not much time.

    • ay2z says:

      Xena, confirmed, pg 18, Blackwell was on the list to receive a copy.

      • Xena says:

        @ay2z. Thanks. I was just going over the motion again and saw the certificate of service. 58 pages of rehashing the same arguments without obeying the court. 58 pages of trying to make it sound as if attorney Crump is on trial. Funny thing — West has been the lawyer arguing with Judge Nelson about this, but O’Mara signed this motion. Maybe they think that Judge Nelson has lost patience with West’s insistence that she change her mind.

      • ay2z says:

        Maybe, but in February, O’Mara just about ran the Judge over, alliteratively speaking, with his words. Clearly rude, he heard her start to say something then increased his tone and spoke over her. She is probably not feeling respect from either of them..

        • Xena says:

          @ay2z. You know, I can just imagine women judges talking in private about how O’Mara and West are disrespectful to Judge Nelson because of her gender. West was not before Judge Lester, but O’Mara was, and his behavior was much more respectful of the court.

      • ay2z says:

        Xena, that was blatant disrespect, not accidental running-on of a thought’, but clear bulldozing.

        I have always thought that they wanted to be rid of Lester, but as much, get a female. The ‘legal analysts’ commented about Lester’s replacement well before it happened, and Judge Nelson was named as a possible replacement by them– so if they knew, so did the defense. Weaker woman, that can organize the heck of of files and runs a tight ship, but they can still push her around the edges and wear her down– you know, like the defendant’s own attitude towards women, condescending, even a smack upside the mouth when needed.

        • Xena says:


          Weaker woman, that can organize the heck of of files and runs a tight ship, but they can still push her around the edges and wear her down– you know, like the defendant’s own attitude towards women, condescending, even a smack upside the mouth when needed.

          Oh well — I might as well say it — O’Mara and West behave in court like drug addicts who think they can bully Judge Nelson into giving them money for a fix. In the alternative, they are nothing more than bullies behaving like bullies towards who they think is weaker.

          The Feign Team is making a huge mistake looking at Judge Nelson’s gender rather than the black robe she wears in court.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            MOM and West think Nelson is utterly stupid and that they can easily put it over on her. Even though they haven’t been able to do that, hope springs eternal and that, coupled with their own denial of failure and lack of introspection, is the makings of a disaster for the defense.

            Meanwhile, what I see in Judge Nelson’s eyes and expressions is that she’s watching the defense very carefully and with intense interest. She’s forming an opinion that the defense attorneys are disgusting and small minded jerks. She’s disgusted with them because the case and the best interests of their client is not their focus, but rather, they’re focused on trolling for dollars and/or reaping the trappings of self aggrandizing via having a high profile case to use and abuse.

            Judge Nelson already understands the envelope within which GZ resides. But, that said, none of these opinions are going to stop her from giving them whatever they’re due, and even some things they are reasonably entitled to, even if they aren’t making proper application therefore. The upshot is, this case is going to go before a jury without undue delay. Because the chance that any delay will result in the discovery of exculpatory evidence is slim to none.

            GZ is toast!!!
            |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @lonnie — i’m expecting the next hearing to go something like this “for the FOURTH time, NO. what part of no do you not understand?”

            (yes, it’s my own private fantasy, but i do get to indulge on occasion.)

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            The upshot is, this case is going to go before a jury without undue delay. Because the chance that any delay will result in the discovery of exculpatory evidence is slim to none.

            GZ is toast!!!
            |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

            INDEED! Also, based on some of Judge Nelson’s facial expressions, I get the idea that she knows when the defense is trying to get a reaction from her of shock and ahhh to their purported evidence. For instance, when O’Mara lifted the photo of GZ with a blood on his nose. So what? That doesn’t prove that he killed Trayvon in self-defense. If people killed others for hitting them in the nose, there would be dead bodies strewn on America’s streets on an hourly basis.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Well, the law says that for the kill shot to be legal, it has to be something that reasonable people will believe is necessary. Obviously Wolfinger and Lee are not reasonable people. They tend to use their discretion to hide behind the law when they make biased decisions. The record shows that they have a long history of making biased decisions. I think they will finally be called to account for those failings.

      • ay2z says:

        (a ‘what if’ (caution snark) thought about that mouth smack, ‘what if’ the gf had a gun that day, according to the lessons of Zim, that’s all that’s needed to claim self-defense in the home)

  58. Jun says:

    That’s strange, my Toshiba is going strong still after 3 years…

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Mine’s almost 4 years old now. What a trooper. And I freelance daily on it for a living. It’s sometimes on 18 hours a day.

      • Jun says:

        I think Freddy just got a defective manufacturer error because my toshiba is the best laptop I have ever owned

        It has lasted me quite a while

        I admit that there are some rare occurrences of software crashes, but other than that, it’s been a fighter

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think the problem has been with some of the newer models. And if you get them from Best Buy – hmm – they have strange procedures. I think many shops would just fix them in house.

  59. Nef05 says:

    Very glad to see you back, Prof. Had a Toshiba a couple years ago. Didn’t have the plug in problems, but the cooling/fan system didn’t work well and it tended to overheat and shutdown a lot, even in a/c cooled rooms. Finally it shut down in the midst of a (f8) factory reset, and that was that.

    Going to read the motion shortly. Off the top of my head, I have a question about the reconsider vs. new motion. Considering the previous motion was denied based on lack of threshold/sufficiency, on two separate requirements/tests, I believed that the motion itself was flawed, as opposed to the reason for the motion being invalid. Yes, I believe the reason (deposing Crump) was, and is, invalid. Nevertheless, my understanding was it was denied because of the motion, itself, not because of the request – if that makes sense. Maybe I’ll find the answer in the motion, but considering the level of O’Mara’s previous motions, I doubt it.

  60. Malisha says:

    The idea that Crump has trumped up a criminal charge to support a civil suit is a combination of a flight of fancy (what if a totally innocent man were to be charged with murder just for killing an innocent kid who was really a thug looking to do random harm to an armed and dangerous stranger?) and a core belief that Blacks have no rights but that they are exploitive, lazy good-for-nothings trying to live off the hard-working white folks they hate (what if a bunch of Blacks were to seize upon an unfortunate situation and manipulate the media to make it look like some damage was done to one of them so his family could collect the big bucks?).

    The idea is so far-fetched as to be offensive in and of itself. It presumes that Trayvon Martin’s family SHOULD have accepted the stupid and dishonest story they were told about how their child “passed.” It presumes that a non-credible inane story told by a known liar and fraud should have been credited more than common sense, physics, forensics and real evidence, simply because “a decent American” wanted it that way. It presumes that obvious ill will, malice and racism (“These assholes; they always get away”; “fucking punks”) should be ignored because it’s not polite to mention them. And it presumes that any lawyer trying to help a victim’s family is an unscrupulous, unethical, opportunistic liar and that he is creating a problem (civil suit, criminal charge) where there was no problem (just a dead kid and after all, he was not worth letting him live any longer; his killer told us so).

    And the EVIDENCE that Crump did all this and was able to accomplish all this simply to profit from something that should not be considered “a problem” to anyone? NO EVIDENCE.

    EVIDENCE that Crump “coached” DeeDee? NONE.
    EVIDENCE, however, that Fogen “coached” several witnesses?

    DIVULGE the goings on at the March 1, 2012 HOA meeting, you gang of liars! There you will see all the bad behavior that is being projected onto Crump. Witness manipulation, conspiracy to obstruct justice, witness intimidation, lying, cheating, stealing, malignancy of every imaginable sort and some not so imaginable.

    I am sick to death of these liars projecting their stinking toxic evil onto others. They are all soul-killers. They are murderers together. I am sick to death of them. And obviously O’Mara is trying to goad Judge Nelson into saying a single unkind word about Saint Fogen.

    She’s a smart cookie. She won’t take the bait.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      You know there’s plenty wrong in a self-defense case if the defendant must smear everyone else in an attempt to win his case.

    • Jun says:

      I do not think she will grant it, or she will grant it with a limit of scope

      You know what I do not get is, why does Omara not get investigated?

      He should submit to deposition and give out his personal address and medical records to everyone, and also all his neighbors and personal friends

      If Omara can ask for it, he should be given the same treatment

      And their claims are silly because they have a case for murder without Deedee, but the fact remains, she was on the phone with him during this incident, the biggest being the single fact that Fogen killed a kid, who only had Skittles and $40 with a cellphone on him

      Anyone who thinks Trayvon is more of a threat that night than Fogen is a certified idiot

    • justchill says:

      Bravo!! Succintly said, That is the jist of this entire case, abridged edition. Thank you for this comment. Bravo, and a standing ovation!!

      *clap clap clap*

    • Trained Observer says:

      An eloquent summation, Malisha. But let’s face it. From what Team Fogen has been able to discern, Crump looks balack. Therefore he’s likely up to no good, and who knows what his deal is …

    • Rachael says:

      “The idea is so far-fetched as to be offensive in and of itself. It presumes that Trayvon Martin’s family SHOULD have accepted the stupid and dishonest story they were told about how their child “passed.””

      What parent would just accept that?

      • Malisha says:

        “What parent would just accept that?”

        ANSWER: A parent who was so beaten down and terrorized that he or she knew that if he or she raised the slightest question as to why his or her child was killed, the response would be some kind of torture or death to them as well. That is, perhaps in some third-world (or worse) country where the police decide that a murdered person HAD NO RIGHTS, the parents might go in to inquire and be made to understand: “Your kid was killed and you go away or you will also be killed.”

        Right now, this case will tell us whether or not America is that kind of country.

    • lurker says:

      Speaking of evidence–has anyone found the ABC audio tape that was supposedly “discovered” by one of the treepers? Gotta link?

    • Malisha says:

      Another thing about the idea that Crump was “coaching” DeeDee. The whole “coaching” meme came into our legalese when (in about the early 1980s) various county departments of social services started to tell folks that children should come in to “talk with someone” if they had been touched in areas that their bathing suits cover. In addition, “Officer Friendly” started to go to grade schools and tell kids that if someone had touched them with “bad touch” rather than “good touch,” they should tell. Then, not unexpectedly, there started to be some moms bringing some kids into these agencies. Kids were telling things that were leading to adults (usually adult males within the family) being interviewed — and they got lawyers — and GUESS what they said, almost to a ONE: The children were being “coached.” Now, prior to that, if a kid came home and told parents that a teacher had whacked a kid with a ruler, they believed it; if a kid told a parent that the neighbor had kicked a dog, they believed it; if a kid told a parent that at a party someone’s older brother had given a bunch of other kids beer and vodka they believed it, on and on and on, but all of a sudden, kids describing their own experiences in childlike terms were “coached.”

      A friend of mine who’s a forensic psychiatrist said the following: IF (a) the kid consistently expresses ALL parts of the story in equally [linguistically] age-appropriate manner; and (b) the story is not inherently unbelievable for physical or logical reasons; and (c) when questioned the kid provides a bit more detail but never provides significantly more detail than asked for or expected; and (d) the beginning and end of the event narrated are internally consistent with the middle; and (e) the kid is a bit wary of the interviewer and not overly eager to deliver the information,

      THEN, the story is to be taken seriously and checked carefully, and cannot simply be dismissed.

      About “coaching,” the following is true:

      (1) The fact that the child uses the same words as the referring adult (usually mom) used does not indicate coaching because it is likely that the child TOLD THE MOM using those actual words;

      (2) If the story has ANY independent corroboration, the likelihood of coaching is decreased significantly; AND

      (3) If the adult being accused of coaching is intelligent enough to make a BETTER story than the kid is telling, then the likelihood of coaching is nearly zero.


      LOOK at what Crump COULD have coached DeeDee to say:

      “Trayvon gold me some creepy old white guy was following him. I told him ‘run’ but he said, ‘naw, he can’t catch me because I’ll go between the houses where there’s no street.’ Then he said, ‘he’s here again!’ I heard Trayvon say, ‘Why are you following me for?’ and the old guy said, ‘N****r, you’re gonna die tonight, I’m sick and tired of assholes like you getting away.’ Then I heard Trayvon say, ‘hey man I’m not doin’ nothin’ I was just comin’ back from 7-11, man don’t shoot me, please!’ and then I heard this old guy laughin’, sayin, ‘You N****rs been robbin’ houses and it goin’ to stop right now!’ and then I hear Trayvon screamin’ and cryin’ and the line went dead…”


      If she was COACHED she would have said something a LOT more tailored for the press, huh?

      The whole idea is stupid and in fact, it’s blame-the-victim-and-attack-his-helpers-and-accuse-all-Blacks-of-criminal-activity-and-evil-intent stupid. THAT kind of stupid.


    • KittySP says:

      Welcome back Prof. glad it was only your laptop that fell I’ll and not you or the Mrs.
      @Malisha – “This girl is on fire!” Once again, you hit it outta the park!

  61. Malisha says:

    Something strange — whenever I’m on your blog, I get a weird little banner telling me that one of my “plug-ins” is failing — and I never knew what a plug-in was! I am not plugging and unplugging my computer so I don’t even know what that means! It also tells me that I can “kill” the page or “wait” so I “wait” and then it tells me some “plug-in” crashed! Very bizarre. It’s been going on a while.

    Do you suspect any kind of foul play?

    I also don’t believe Judge Nelson will change her mind. I believe Fogen’s lawyers are downproofing in a sewer of their own client’s making, and they are filling up time with irritating little complaints about not getting their way when in fact, getting their way would mean dismissing the charges because Fogen doesn’t like being a defendant just for killing some Black kid none of HIS friends liked anyway.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The plug-in is an app your browser may need. For example, with Firefox you can go to Tools / Plugins – and the page will tell you which plug-ins need to be updated. I’m not sure about what you’d do with IE or Chrome – I think those may be automatic or you’ll get a message to update on those browsers.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Also known as add-ons, I meant. I think Firefox mentions add-ons, but plug-ins are similar.

      • bettykath says:

        Firefox tells me it will check for plug-in updates if I want it too. A choice! Can you imagine? Wish Windows would learn about that concept.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think you can set most anything Windows does to ask you first.

    • leander22 says:

      Betty, it’s actually good to have your software automatically updated, leaves less vulnerabilities on your system. The black hats or the people you don’t want to fiddle around in your computer obviously use the backdoors or vulnerabilities in the most widely used software. Often Java and Adobe, since everyone has that for free on their systems. I have shifted to automatically update everything not simply have the automatic updates from Windows. They usually fix bugs and vulnerabilites. A good tool for updating all your software on your system is Secunia PSI, it’s free for private users. Really easy to handle.

      If you don’t want to have automatic updates, you should in any case set your system to warn you about updates. Or use Secunia to check regularly.

      The best way to deal with a plug in that crashed is simple close down the browser and restart. If that does not work do a complete simple system restart. That’s usually all it needs.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Firefox has java shut completely down at the moment because of vulnerabilities in the software. I’ve read online that you should never download Java unless you absolutely need it to run something and mostly you don’t need it for anything because other programs do the same thing.

      • leander22 says:

        Yes, two sides, they block Java and Silverlight by default. But that is a default only. The problems do not really lie in Java or Silverlight from my perspective, the problem is that the average Firefox user does not handle the involved security issues correctly.

        From my own admittedly limited perspective the rule: never change a running system, stopped working ages ago. I don’t have any problems with automatic routines from the right sources. Quite the opposite.

        My father is update averse, all these matters irritate him. My father also belongs to the group of people I have spent quite a bit of time to deal with the resulting troubles. He needs Java to play his favorite card game online, for instance. I haven’t had the type of troubles I have to deal with on his system on my own for almost a decade by now. At least not the type of serious issues I have encountered elsewhere.

        Two tools I consider elementary over these years both are free for private users: CCleaner, allows you do a couple of things that are not as comfortable on Windows, e.g. modify startup, (always back up registry deletions, use a special folder for that), and Secunia is enormously helpful to update the software beyond Windows regularly. Secunia is the most comfortable program I have ever used in the field, and I tested quite a few.

        Kaspersky Internet security has a special vulnerability scan, that shows you programs that may cause you trouble since they have a security problem, but it does not allow you to update them automatically, but Secunia does update everything except for Windows, where they lead you the the windows update routines, and that saves quite a bit of time.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @leander — i will second your recommendation for CCleaner (formerly crap cleaner) as an excellent utility and we are a pro-geek household. i also concur with your keeping system updates just that – with flash and java, they are usually to plug some type of vulnerability. i use the option to notify me and then i install, but probably because i’m a control freak. to the person who said there were problems with flash 10, yes, firefox did not handle that update well and i had to go back to a previous version, but when the next update came out, the problem was resolved.

      • leander22 says:

        i use the option to notify me and then i install, but probably because i’m a control freak.

        I used to fauxmccoy, fact is I am tired of it, that’s the extend to which I can understand my dad. Why should I waste time on it, if it works perfectly without my interference? The automatic option always adds a restoring point automatically too. Strictly Secunia PSI allows you to check all software on your system at the same time. There are other programs I noticed that had vulnerabilities via Kaspersky over the years. But they only offered you links with more information about the bug and the specific type of vulnerabilities it caused. It may be dominantly the usual suspects on every system, since free, but it is not always the case. Open Office once offered a not so nice backdoor too.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i hear you on your auto install vs. my method. i am fortunate to be married to an it geek who is knowledgeable about which updates are critical. i do keep things updated, just not at the precise moment the system demands. i’m just enough of a former geek to want to know what is being updated and why – it also helps me to isolate what specific update may have caused a problem so i know where to tinker. like you, i have found the c-cleaner to be invaluable, along with another utility called ‘uninstall’. windows is notorious for not thoroughly uninstalling software and creating registry problems. ….. i miss my mac ~ sigh.

      • leander22 says:

        I love OpenOffice since it allows me to automatically create pdf.files as an extra saving routine.

      • leander22 says:

        And yes, I vaguely remember troubles with Adobe Reader on Firefox too, but that is quite a while ago. It wasn’t the latest or 10/X. I even used alternative readers for a while. But when I experienced troubles with them too, I returned to Adobe.

        Weren’t there a lot of rumors surrounding Adobe backdoors, and a lot of hysteria on the web at one point? Fact is they have the financial power and resources to update once they have a warning. I feel more save relying on their expertise than looking into the rumors admittedly.

        Concerning the black hats out there. No chance, my online banking is heavily secured. No chance either to find this type of info on my system, so you may as well leave me alone. Concerning white heads, welcome anytime. But no pranks, please with my file collections 😉

      • leander22 says:

        i am fortunate to be married to an it geek who is knowledgeable about which updates are critical.

        Congratulations. Good choice. Strictly I love to dive down into systems, it’s one of my favorite pursuits, but I know my limits. I do occasionally check though. You can set the times for update routines, at least on Windows 7. So you can check what the updates are for.

    • aussiekay says:

      Mostly that would be Adobe Flash which the videos run with. In the case of FireFox the “plugin container” might crash sometimes — that is a part of FF that runs the plugins, specifically designed to be able to crash without taking the rest of the browser with it.

      The pdf reader will often also complain of needing an update, just after reading a pdf file.

      None of these updates are necessary. It’s enough to get a new version every year or so.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        The recent updates to the Adobe products, Flash, and Acrobat, or whatever they call their PDF reader these days, are to plug security holes.


      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yes, I once ran an adobe update I didn’t really need and had beaucoup problems with my computer. It took awhile to realize what had happened and to uninstall Adobe products and start over – or to do a what do you call it – a restore point to get rid of the issue. I think a lot of people had that issue with the adobe 10 upgrade.

  62. I had trouble with my computer last week. It wouldn’t start. I panicked. I had to do a system restore and it took hours.

    • bettykath says:

      I had this problem and took it to the computer shop. My problem: Windows grabs your computer and installs updates. This includes turning your computer off. There is nothing I have found that will prevent them from doing except possibly disconnecting from the internet. Anyway, the fix to the problem I had with Windows doing updates that I didn’t ask for was to just wait with a dark screen until it gets done. Then it does the restart and gives the computer back to me. If this sounds like I’m a bit antagonistic to the hijacking, well, yes, it is. It’s aggravating.

      • Nef05 says:

        To stop your windows hijacking is pretty easy.
        Click on your start button.
        Go to Control Panel,
        System and Security,
        Windows Updates.

        When you get to Windows Updates page, look in the left column and click change settings. The first option on your change settings page should be a drop down box that allows you to switch from automatic updating through a few other options.
        I find the option *check for updates but let me chose whether to download and install them* works well for me.

        You just have to remember to check it every week or so to make sure you don’t get behind in your security updates.

  63. Two sides to a story says:

    Sorry about your Toshiba, Prof. I bought my Toshiba laptop through a university in the UK and have never had a bit of trouble with any of the outlets. However, we bought a Toshiba laptop for my son here in the US recently (in the box) and he had what sounds like a similar problem with the outlet for sound. Best Buy wanted to hijack it and send it to Toshiba (and for some reason insisted on erasing all the data before they would send it, but my son figured out a way to fix it himself – he said it was not such a big deal when he opened the cover and figured out how to stabilize the pluggy thingy. There are lots of great fix-it videos online for various computers – I had to reinstall a new keyboard for mine when it was two years old after a little water accident and the help videos were spot on.

    Otherwise, my Toshiba has been the best computer I’ve ever owned hands down. Hope they fix their design flaw and stop blaming customers for it.

  64. looneydoone says:

    Have a look at ASUS brand computers. They are inexpensive and durable.I’ve purchased several on-line from Best Buy. Delivered to your door, free shipping and no hidden charges.

  65. Xena says:

    Professor!!! So happy to see you back.


  66. 2dogsonly says:

    Try listing your complaint on their FB page.

  67. ay2z says:

    Lost a laptop by simply accidentally pulling out the cord while it was on, fried the motherboard and that was that. Apple fixed the problem by making it harder for the plug to come off so easily.

    Glad to hear all is well otherwise, and the rest, but for the frustration of the pricey computer and ‘work product’ loss.

    To the Ben Crump, going to read the remainder your new article. Thanks! This is going to get interesting.

  68. PiranhaMom says:

    Welcome back! I hope you are buoyed by the concern and appreciation shown by your students. Also the sense of invention shown by staying “on campus” but moving to an earlier “study hall.” Very smart move by Lonnie and friends!

    Shows their devotion to you and the cause that we all, together, espouse: Justice for Trayvon.

    PS: Now crossing Toshiba off the list of future computer purchases! No service = NO SALE.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Professor, what happens next if Judge Nelson does grant the motion.

      So the defense gets to depose Crump and . . . ??? Then what? Just because they get to do that doesn’t mean he has any info that makes any difference to the defense.

      It looks like another case of smoke and mirrors to me. Keep that 30k a month coming in until trial. And beyond!

      • lurker says:

        I find myself wondering if Judge Nelson might rule this request to be not yet ripe for consideration given that O’Mara has yet to depose Witness 8.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Definitely crossing Toshiba off my short list for next laptop after digesting the professor’s tale of woe. Glad you’re back, and thank you for sharing.

      Regarding Mrs. Fogen — there’s been chat at intervals about how rare Florida perjury charges are … but today’s Miami Herald highlights a case where a guy was charged with perjury (not in court, but during the investigation) and how his statements were instrumental in take-down of a city commissioner willing to trade votes for comparatively small potatoes — unlike some of her fellow crooks.

      I’d like to think the State is similarly turning the screws on Mrs. Fogen.

  69. I once had a Toshiba that I absolutely loved. Sadly, it was stolen.

    As I was reading the new old motion, I was thinking, this might be relevant for another case but certainly not relevant to the case facing their client. Oh well, desperate times call for desperate measures. I really got a kick out of the footnote detailing the debunked video of “Trayvon fighting in a MMA video” lol. They honest to goodness listen to EVERY whack-a-doodle theory from the nutters lol.

    • towerflower says:

      yeah, the nutters are taking credit for this latest motion also. Calling it the Tara motion after one of their nuts.

      • Haha and when it turns out to be a dud…they’ll vote tara off the island like they did nettles lol.

        • racerrodig says:

          It’s a big deal because O’ Mara used the word “lied” and they act as if it’s a proven fact. So Tara found the word lied in a Motion.

          Yeeeeeeeeeeee Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa !! What a bunch of fools.

          The best part is all the chatter that now Judge Lester is going to grant every Motion for the defense now.

      • Xena says:

        @towerflower, if you have or can again locate that comment, copy the URL and the comment and email it to the prosecution. You can use the online email form at

      • towerflower says:

        Xena, It’s the main story from the 18th on the CTH…..SD says in his main story “This motion will affectionately be called “Tara’s Motion“, because the diligence of Treeper Tara appears to have given the defense a key tool in its position.”

        Then quite a few of the comments are all congrats to Tara for her work.

        • Xena says:


          Then quite a few of the comments are all congrats to Tara for her work.

          IOWs, O’Mara and West take legal advice from a White Supremacist website.

      • towerflower says:

        “Specifically the ABC audio tape which was mysteriously uploaded onto the ABC website on February 28th, which Tara discovered.”

      • towerflower says:

        Do you really think they want to know about that? Or do you think they already have been monitoring the CTH?

      • lurker says:

        @groans. I just listened to their ABC link. So far as I can tell, there’s nothing NEW here, just some interjections by Crump to restart and tell the part about . . . Nothing that could really be construed as “coaching” the witness. But, the ABC piece is only a bit over 5 minutes long–by no means the smoking gun that they seem to think that they have. And clearly not the full ABC tape. I’m afraid I don’t get what all their shouting is about.

      • groans says:

        @ lurker, regarding:

        I just listened to their ABC link. So far as I can tell, there’s nothing NEW here….

        I agree. And the defense is claiming that Crump’s instructions about talking loud and repeating something W8 had already said is “substantive” conversation. … Huh?

        I think the defense is “substance-challenged” – for example, they don’t know what’s relevant to the “substance” of a Murder Two charge, either!

    • lurker says:

      I read through the motion and couldn’t find that footnote–where is it?

      • towerflower says:

        lurker, page 32 of 58, statement #13. It was part of an email requesting information from the State from back in September.

      • lurker says:

        Thanks, TF. I also notice that a few paragraphs up from there was the request for hospital records for Witness #8. In both cases, O’Mara was asking the state for evidence that THEY had. They, of course, would be under no obligation (this was settled early on) to go out and GET evidence that O’Mara requested that they did NOT have.

        I am wondering (would have to to back and look at the court tapes) if what SA Guy SAID to O’Mara was that the state had no records. This would be because they would have no reason to pursue such records.. Doesn’t mean that they don’t exist somewhere–ponly that the state had never sought them.

        Is this possible?

  70. First!

    Glad to see you, Professor.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      X2 — glad to know you are safe and well professor … and i am following the yellow brick road.

    • Hi SouthernGirl2 glad to see you are still here… A lot has gone by with this case…

    • To everyone who knows Morpheus ,We/I are concern because
      a poster that name himself Shadow13 posted the followed at huff,,,

      Shadow 13
      Mar 18, 2013 at 18:56:47 in Black Voices “Early this morning Morpheus Flux went into respiratory arrest. He was taken to the hospital by ambulance. There was nothing they could do, He was 66 years old, and survived by his two daughters, by me and his and his other 2 grandsons. My mom aked me to send this message.

      Anyone knows the reality of what happened with Morpheus ,
      his account over there is disabled,gone.
      He was my best friend and was known by all of his family as Pop.

      • Oh Noo! I am so sorry to hear this. What sad sad news. My deepest condolences to Morpheus’ family. May God’s grace and tender mercies comfort you during this dark hour.

      • @SouthernGirl2,I can not confirm or denied,We/I want to know
        the reality.

        “He was my best friend and was known by all of his family as Pop.” was posted by Shadow13.

      • looneydoone says:

        Joseph, Both Kindheart and Darlinsass have confirmed the sad news. Morpheus passed away yesterday morning.

      • So sad to hear that.

      • looneydoone,it’s sad news! I do not ever met him personally
        but I have the feelings that I knew him forever,he was warm
        and very straightforward with his ideas and emotions,very sad
        that he left without knowing about what he though was the senseless murder of Martin and the future incarceration of gz,peace be with him whatever he might be.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i will add my condolences to morpheus’ family here as well. he was a good soul and always up for fighting the good fight. he shall be missed.

      • ladystclaire says:

        The family of Morpheus Flux have my deepest sympathy at this most difficult of times, which we all will bear witness at some point and time in our lives. may GOD comfort each and everyone of you as only he can. R.I.P Morpheus- You are gone but, you will never be forgotten. Lady

      • towerflower says:

        I am sorry for your loss.

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