Monday, March 11, 2013
Good morning:
I write today to clear up some remaining uncertainty regarding the timing for a motion for immunity and the immunity hearing.
The motion for immunity is similar to a motion to suppress evidence because, if the motion is granted, the case is over.
Hearings on potentially outcome-determinative motions, such as a motion to suppress evidence, are always held before trial because, if the moving party wins (i.e., the defendant), the case is dismissed and there is no trial. If the defendant loses, the case proceeds to trial, unless he pleads guilty.
For example, let us suppose that a police officer arrested a defendant without probable cause and discovered a rock of crack cocaine in a pocket in the defendant’s jacket during the search incident to the arrest. The defendant is charged with possession of cocaine and pleads not guilty at the arraignment.
The defendant moves to suppress the rock before trial on the ground that the arrest and subsequent search were unlawful because the officer arrested him without probable cause. But for the unlawful arrest, the rock would not have been discovered. Thus, the rock is a “fruit of the poisonous tree” and must be suppressed pursuant to the exclusionary rule. That is, evidence seized unlawfully from a defendant by police cannot be used against the defendant at trial.
Without the cocaine, the prosecution would be unable to prove that the defendant possessed cocaine. Therefore, it would have to dismiss the case and the court would have to grant the motion.
An immunity hearing is similar. If the defendant prevails, the court must grant immunity from criminal prosecution and civil suit. Therefore, the outcome is similar to the motion to suppress. The prosecution cannot proceed and the court must dismiss the case.
While it is theoretically possible to merge a hearing on a motion to suppress evidence into a trial, there is little sense to do so because the issues and attorney strategies are different.
For example, the direct and cross examination of the arresting officer for purposes of the suppression motion will be focused on whether the officer had probable cause to arrest, whereas, the legality of the arrest and subsequent search is not an issue for purposes of the trial. It’s just something that happened and no longer relevant to the ultimate issue the jury must decide. That is, whether the defendant is guilty or not guilty.
I have provided the simplest example of a motion to suppress evidence. They can be far more complicated and last more than one day, such as might be the case when multiple locations are searched, some with search warrants and some without. It makes no sense to waste the juror’s time and risk confusing them with irrelevant evidence and issues.
In the federal and state courts in which I practiced, the courts set deadlines within which to file motions to suppress. Failure to comply with a deadline typically meant the motion was waived, unless you had a good reason for not filing the motion, such as newly discovered evidence that you did not know prior to the deadline.
Federal and state judges hate to summon people for jury duty for cases that can be potentially resolved by outcome-determinative motions prior to trial. They hate even more having to waste jury time with evidence that is irrelevant to the issues the jury must decide.
Although constitutional rights are at stake during hearings on motions to suppress evidence, the courts can and do hold that those rights are waived by failing to assert them in timely fashion.
Just as notice and an opportunity to be heard are important to due process of law, so too is finality. Legal issues that can be decided should be decided. I cannot think of a good reason not to decide the issue of immunity before trial and to deem it waived, if it is not.
I have already written about the potential for constitutional error requiring reversal of a conviction and remand for a new trial here and here, if an immunity hearing is merged into a trial and will not revisit that issue today.
However, I will comment regarding the idea that an immunity hearing could be conducted after trial.
If a jury returns a guilty verdict, the case is over. Since the defendant’s guilt has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the jury necessarily must have decided that the prosecution proved absence of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. The verdict precludes a finding that the defendant proved self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence. Therefore, the immunity motion must be denied.
If the jury acquits the defendant, however, either judge or jury could theoretically decide that the defendant had met his burden of proving by a preponderance of the evidence that he acted in self-defense.
The problem in this situation, however, is that the jury may have acquitted a defendant who did not testify or offer any evidence, which a defendant has a right to do.
Should he now be permitted to put on a case to prove that he acted in self-defense?
Does he have a right to have the jury decide that issue or must the judge decide the issue.
What happens if the defendant testifies and the judge or jury decides they do not believe the defendant and now want to find him guilty?
I do not see any easy answers to these questions.
There is no doubt that the legislature intended that the issue of immunity should be raised and decided before trial and I can think of no good reason to do otherwise.
If I were the judge, I would hold a hearing as soon as possible to consider whether the immunity hearing can be merged with the trial or considered after trial, and if after trial, whether the judge or the jury should decide whether to grant immunity.
These are extremely important issues that should be considered and resolved before trial to avoid a lot of grief later.
If no action is taken, we can only sit back and watch a slow-motion train wreck.
Finally, I want everyone to know that I firmly believe that the defense does not want to have an immunity hearing because they have no defense and the defendant would be crucified on cross examination exposing him to be the liar that he is. They obviously do not want to admit this, so they allowed the court to strike the hearing without formally and publicly waiving it. I doubt that we will hear more from the defense about this issue, since they want it to disappear.
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Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
Motion to reconsider Crump for deposition.
Click to access motion_for_reconsideration.pdf
Maybe if O’ Mara said “Oh Please, Please, Please, with sugar on top and I promise not not to be such an ass, Oh Please, Pretty Please…….Please, Please, Please…….he wouldn’t hear
De ~ nied !! so much.
Speciallady T~ Don’t those morons know that NO means NO?
Looks like attorney Blackwell will have to come to court and spank O’Mara’s booty. I haven’t read the entire motion, but didn’t Judge Nelson tell the defense to depose Witness 8? The defense cannot rely on Crump’s interview of Witness 8 because he interviewed her, GZ had not been arrested. Subsequently, the State interviewed DeeDee.
Me thinks that O’Mara is picking a fight he shouldn’t pick. Blackwell should move for sanctions for legal fees.
More pathetic smoke & mirrors. O’ Mara actually said “…they lied..” this time around. I guess his next move to call a press conference on the lawn and “…call her out…”
.
The desperation is overwhelming. So let me get this straight, if there is a smattering of a chance Dee Dee didn’t stay in a hospital, Fogen is what…off the hook.
O’ Mara actually said “hospitalized” like “she was admitted and stayed for a specific length of time” He’s off the scale on this one.
Note to Moron O’ Mara……..depose the actual witness, not the neighbors, not her school friends, not the attorney she talked to, but surprise us and actually follow what the law allowed !! I know it’s real hard, but bear with us on this one……or not, June 10th is getting close.
@racerrodig. O’Mara is playing into the agenda of bigoted racists. I would not say that if the Zimmerman wasp nest had not denigrated, mocked, and used racial nicknames for attorney Crump. Benjamin Crump is not just a Black attorney. He’s a Black attorney who was not ashamed to come on national television and advocate for his clients. He’s a Black attorney who refused to shuffle at the tune of Lee and Wolfinger. He’s a Black attorney with courage.
Those qualities are not liked by bigoted racists who are insanely mad with the thought of Blacks having too much power. O’Mara has now included himself among them.
He’s on some seriously thin ice. Every report I do as a witness gets scrutinized and I get told “…don’t word anything so as to piss of or insult the Judge.”
@racerrodig
Well, that explains why GZ has waived his appearance. At his weight, he would break through the thin ice.
Moby fogen…the great white whale…….
OOPZ….got that wrong
Moby fogen the great Afro / Peruvian whale…..
There we go 🙂
HOODIES UP
Did you see what I posted on Xena’s private chat last night? It had to do with paintball ?? You would have loved this.
Race….read ur comments….seems we have even more in common……only a land line here…..I DON’T like cell phones……
Business?……a lot of mine is done thru referrals and “want lists”…..collectors send me lists of specialty items they’re looking for…..I find it in the price range they’re will to pay….buy it / sell it…
Paintball?……….DO NOT go paint balling in cutoffs and flip flops (did have a face shield)……..got wacked in the side of the knee with one……one hell of a welt…..
scratcher assembled….drying, and awaiting the finish coat…
For personalization I was thinking along the lines of “RACER PAT”
If not that…..any suggestions?
MMP CP Over
My man, you can put whatever you’d like. Just make sure you have your “signature” of some sort on it.
When we go paint balling I wear camo army fatigues which are thick enough to absorb any blows. I have a web gear setup with 4 extra 200 round pods and my air tank is on my back mounted horizontally. I even rigged up and my try to patent, a dual 9.6 volt RC car battery pack setup held by velcro above my air tank. I used an old coiled guitar cord modified with the RC style ends so I can charge it normally. I’d hate to run out of paint, air or volts.
If it can be “improved on” I’ll try it.
I’m pretty sure he’d break through about any ice….just sayin’
That’s good Race…..I’ll hire him to break thru the 4 inches of ice where my driveway meets the dirt road…… 🙂
Last time it was me….a chainsaw…..and a pickaxe 😦
MMP “Okay Fogen…..a little farther……that’s it…..a little more……just a bit more, keep going (cracking sound KerSplash)”
racer “……hmmmmmm I guess I should have handed him this safety line, Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa”
MMP “….nother beer ?”
racer “….only if it’s on me !”
Outside work done for the say…..gotz me a cold Bud goin’ now 🙂
Went to “town” this morning…….Do a google earth search and look up Florissant Colo……..The BIG city of 2 convience stores…..one gas station….1 bar…..1 coffee shop…….1 post office….and 1 feed store……And I’m 7 miles north of that….and dirt road all the way 🙂
Only 1 gas station……not much competition.
Xena, I am also sickened with this defense and their tactic to go after Attorney Crump when they have been instructed to depose DD on numerous occasions by Judge Nelson.
My concern is that Attorney Crump stated in his affidavit that there was no discussion in between pauses and the defense motion states there was. Can this be grounds for deposition?
@SpecialladyT
The defense lies. I listened to the ABC recording and the only time I heard attorney Crump speak with DeeDee when his recorder was not running was before he turned it on. The entire ABC recording is not available to the public, but it seems to me that Crump telling DeeDee to wait until he checked something on his recorder is not the type of “speaking to DeeDee” that has any significance of her statement.
I know. Pathetic, isn’t it.
@Xena, the defense is really like Racer said, skating on thin ice with Judge Nelson. is there anything that can be done about O’mara for his trying this case at the directions of those bigoted racist who wish to see a *MURDER* walk free? from what I’ve read from one of the Trayvon supporters over at HP, O’mara has been a very naughty attorney in regards to the donations. also, some over there feel that, one of Fogen’s minions has turned *STATES EVIDENCE* in order to receive immunity. they also say that not only did he get an office upgrade out of some of the money donted to Fogen by idiots, he also *BOUGHT AN OFFICE BUILDING!*
As for him still harping about getting DeeDee’s medical records, this would be a way of him getting her address. I feel that the court needs to pull both him and West off of this case because, of all of the shady dealings with Racist morons who want to do harm to this girl and other witnesses. they have no right to anybody’s medical records or their addresses. O’mara is the most corrupt attorney, that I have ever laid my eyes on.
It seems to me that, they should be in some kind of trouble with the Florida bar, for some of the corrupt BS that they have been involved in where the Doxing Tree House is concerned. they might be yet because, there are going to be some folks finding themselves charged with doxing or cyber bullying over at the dog house. I have a feeling that this is why they will no longer be discussing this case over there.
Also, why is it that Fogen and those family members of his, who were involved in moving all of that money around, not in any kind of trouble with the feds? isn’t what they were doing called *MONEY LAUNDERING?
@ladystclaire
Observation. Process of elimination. When suggesting other blogs for the Zimmerman wasp nest to collect at, what blog was omitted from the list? The one managed by the admitted violator of cyber laws. They know who among them to avoid, including the criminal’s relatives — and they also know why.
@Xena, it’s really sad to see what these tree slum B******$ have turned this murder case of an innocent barley seventeen year old into. for them to be calling attorney Crump names because of his race, is very ignorant of them and, they are giving the rest of the world a front row seat, to see RACISM IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. they are actually making this country out to be the worst country in the world, by the way they are supporting a child killer and, by the way they slander, defame and, deamonize this deceased kid as well as his family.
With people like these living among us here in America, why would anybody from another country want to move here? and again I say, there has *NEVER* been another murdered child/person, in this country who has been so disrespected except this one. Trayvon never hurt anyone and that includes his murderer and, here we have these morons being very disrespectful of a deceased kid who they never knew. how much more ignorant can they get? SMDH
Well said. Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot. That is and Afro – Peruvian / White / Whatever murdered one of their kids and claimed self defense. The chances are the defendant really would need security.
Ya know…..at this point…..I could really give a shit……
He either gets convicted……or sucks lead………either way he’s gone……it can go no other way.
Although if he hates fags? Then westboro might protest for his release?
You’re really sure he’ll take one aren’t you. I don’t think he has the guts actually. If he does, we’ll read………….
“The man convicted of (or charged with) the murder of a 17 year old high school student that was unarmed and walking home attempted suicide today. FogenPhoole Zidiot allegedly used a pistol in the attempt, however he missed and merely grazed his skull.”
“The killer of Trayvon Martin, who was gunned down on Feb. 26th 2012, is said to be in mentally unstable condition. Zidiot claims he was standing his ground when he was savagely assaulted verbally by his cellmate (or SheLie) and had no alternative. He stated he was “…about to run out of time..”
Zidiot’s only other comment was “….great, now I have two stupid looking parts in my hair”
“His brother Robert Zidiot jr stated this is just another in a long line of misunderstandings as all Afro – Peruvians are subject to abuse. Zidiot jr stated that the family is fresh out of diapers and spoons and it’s “…a good thing his aim was off…” When asked why he would attempt suicide Zidiot jr. Zidiot jr said a new website in his name would be launched for his benefit in the near future. For further information on the website refer to Zidiotsrus.org.”
“Not many details are known yet however his attorney Mark O’ Mara has blamed the New Black Panther party for not inviting Zidiot into their ranks. O’ Mara has stated he will file a Motion “for the hell of it”
“O’ Mara stated Zidiot plans to file a lawsuit against all gun manufacturers and all makers of ammunition for “…providing him the means to commit murder” O’ Mara stated “…they should have known better” The NRA is also being named as a co-defendant in the civil lawsuit.”
“A representative for the NRA, while reluctant to comment officially did say “..how the hell did he miss at that range”
While waiting for the Prof to update the site and due to long load times…
WE ARE HERE:
http://frederickleatherman.com/2013/03/10/jose-baez-should-not-comment-about-zimmerman-case/
You can’t be screaming for your life when you have someone’s hand on his…. err… your nose and your other…. err… his other hand on your mouth.
With “all his weight” on his mouth and nose, his concern was his painful nose and not his inability to breathe. You’d be panicking for a breath, with adrenalin taking over. You would get your ‘broken nose’ blood on his hands, you would get a jab at his side, or ribs, or pinch his skin somewhere, if he was hunched over as claimed, you could get tingers into his eyes if only to momentarily be allowed a sbreath of air.
Then comes the forgotten name person to the Hannity show, and he says this:
“Continued to take”…. continued to push his hands off….”?
Sounds like he says he was able to take, to push hands off. He didn’t say that when he told his stories of getting the gun and shooting.
Actually he’s an idiot and he’s trying to conceal the fact that he was never in harms way at all, because Trayvon was too timid. GZ had superiority all the way, there was no reason for him to shoot Trayvon, but he decided to just do it and take the poor kids life from him, just for the fun of it. GZ needs to rot in hell for the rest of his miserable life.
Trayvon wasn’t THAT timid. He let GZ catch up to him, and demanding to know why he was being followed. He did not bow to Zimmerman’s will, which led to the confrontation becoming physical. When things got physical he obviously did something to try to fight back or get away, resulting in Zimmerman’s minor injuries.
I certainly don’t believe TM smashed GZ’s head into the concrete, but he may have been on top of Zimmerman early in the struggle (the “wrestling” described by witnesses), especially if, as likely IMHO, the two were rolling over each other. At some point GZ did get those two cuts on the back of his head, and I’ve always thought it likely they came from rolling over the broken utility/sprinkler cover.
And while Trayvon may have been on top of GZ at some point that doesn’t necessarily mean he was in control of the situation, as GZ still could have had a hold on his clothes or his arm or wrist.
Since I don’t buy any of the theories positing a conspiracy to capture or kill TM, I have a hard time believing JohnW6’s testimony is totally fabricated. I think the cops convinced him to greatly exaggerate what he saw to fit their desired narrative. But even after his recantations about seeing blows, and knowing who was screaming, he still insists he saw Trayvon on top. I think he may have. He seems to have seen only the earliest part of the struggle, then immediately hustled upstairs to safety with his then-injured-fiance. (I would guess they made their retreat even before W11 connected with 911.) So TM could have been on top momentarily at the beginning, but without having any kind of control (“strattle” position my arse), which John may have seen, but then GZ gained and held the advantage thereafter (why else would Trayvon be screaming in anguish?).
Whonoze- how do you account for ZERO DNA on Trayvons hands or clothes? I don’t think TM did anything whatsoever to touch GZ. That idiot got those scratches on his face from something else, maybe tree branches, maybe the recoil. But NOT from even a glancing blow from Trayvon.
Sent from my iPod
@no one in particular :
It’s amazing eh? Trayvon is non violent, a peaceful and happy child. Yet, despite all we’ve learned about him, and despite there being not a scintilla of evidence to indicate it, people who otherwise insist that evidence is needed to speculate, will continue to speculate that Trayvon took a swing at and probably hit GZ. No evidence needed.
Yet, when I point out that assistance is needed for GZ to leave home in time to catch TM at the mail shed. That is put down to coincidence. Imagine that, eh? With no shopping trip planned at all, because there’s no money for any such trip, nor is the wife, who accompanies him on such a trip, there to go with him.
So, he manages to pick a time of day to leave home and what luck, he manages to run into Trayvon at the mail shed. Know what’s wrong with this picture? Well, if that was the truth, then why did he cook up a lie that would conceal the fact that someone notified him? After all, there isn’t any law that I know of, that prohibits chance encounters, and he did call NEN so why not just tell the truth?
The answer is “guilty knowledge”. They’re all concealing their involvement because they know that the coincidence story isn’t believable and they also know that any plan at all, would prove that GZ is the aggressor. And that in its turn would mean that their lies had a purpose to deceive and thwart the investigation, which it almost did until it was detected and corrected.
So that the only coincidence remaining is that Trayvon picked this time to go to the store. And what another lucky coincidence for GZ, if those three stooges at 711 had not held Trayvon up for 5 minutes, Trayvon would probably have made it home before the rain made it necessary for him to take shelter at the mail boxes. He’d have been home even before GZ got in his truck.
But no, those guys at 711 didn’t know Trayvon and Trayvon didn’t know them? Yeah, right!
@ cielo
If GZ received the cuts on the back of his head by rolling over a sharp or rough object on the ground that would not transfer blood or DNA to Trayvon. If Trayvon hit GZ in the nose, causing it to bleed, the blood would not flow immediately, and Trayvon would have gotten no blood on his hands.
I’ve walked through tree branches and gotten scratches. They don’t wind up on the back of your head, nor do they bleed that profusely. Not that such cuts would result from getting ones head pounded either IMHO (i’d expect to see way more damage from anything like that), but I’m not a doctor.
The lack of DNA on Trayvon’s clothes is a problem for the prosecution, since GZ’s nose was bleeding (though how much is certainly in dispute). If GZ had been in a superior position over Trayvon, you’d think some of the blood from his nose would have dripped onto the hoodie. I know LLMPapa has suggested both GZ and TM may have been upright when the shot was fired, but W18, who was watching when the gun went off, says they were still on the ground.
@ lonnie
It’s possible GZ passed the clubhouse by coincidence while he was on ‘routine patrol.’ I still think it more probable that someone alerted him to TM ‘loitering’ under the mail awning. This would hardly constitute a conspiracy, and would not likely have involved W6, who lives too far away to notice TM near the clubhouse. I would guess a tipster would most likely have lived across RVC from the clubhouse.
A big angry guy with a gun doesn’t need help in killing an unarmed teenager.
I do not understand your point about the ‘three stooges’.
You’ve got one heck of a bunch of dismissing in there, but they’re all independent of one another. They can only stand alone, they cannot stand when they are connected to other parts of the saga. As far as “the three stooges”, keep reading , eventually you’ll get it. Probably after they’ve been caught.
The fact remains that if GZ could not have done this on his own, then he needs assistance. The facts show that he could not have done this on his own, therefore there were assistants. The fact that we don’t know who they were, or where and exactly how much assistance they provided, or why, does not make them go away.
For instance, lets take the instance of GZ saying that those sounds we hear on the NeN tape are him rapping on his flashlight to get it to work. Now we know that he’s a liar, who lies at the drop of a hat. We also know that if those sounds were not of him rapping on his flashlight, the alternatives we could imagine can be quite incriminating. Therefore it would hardly be any wonder that GZ would lie about it, if it was anything else. So, now, if the flashlight is troublesome for GZ, we should expect it will be just as troublesome for anyone else, right? But when Serino tries it, it’s suddenly a flawless performer. Are we to believe that the flashlight somehow corrected it’s problems coincidentally? Or is it more likely that the flashlight is not what those knocks were about?
Also weighing matters against the flashlight being the cause of the knocking is that, there’s also the sound of what seems like a gun being handled in the area at about the same time. Obviously if GZ is on the phone at the same time he’s supposedly holding and rapping on his flashlight, the gun handling sounds, or whatever else they might be, are being produced by the actions of someone else in the area close by, eh?
Oh and before I forget to mention, if there was someone else in the truck with GZ they’d have only needed to stay out of sight for approximately 2 minutes. Not a long time to simply scrunch down a bit in the seat, or lay on the back seat. Such that when GZ first exclaims “He’s running”, he’s also telling his companion that he can get up now.
In the same vein “Call my wife” can be a false announcement to make it appear that “my wife” isn’t already here!
I think yall are trippin
Whonoze, I do not believe you have ever witnessed or had a real bloody nose, unless your comment was meant as sarcasm or something. The lack of dna is a problem for Fogen and Omara. Do not believe me? Watch GSP vs BJ Penn 1. BJ Penn lands one clean shot on GSP’s nose and immediately, GSP is bleeding profusely, with blood dropping onto himself and all over, splattering and smearing everywhere in the cage, and also onto BJ Penn, off of one punch. So if Fogen is claiming this huge fight and there is no dna transfer whatsoever or barely on either party, even less so on Trayvon’s hands, sleeves, cuffs, it shows the lack of evidence of such a fight ever occurring. Also making a hard strike to the nose, the nose would bleed immediately. There would be evidence of epithelial transfer at the least and there was no evidence of such occurring. Simply touching something leaves fingerprints and dna transfer. How’s Fogen supposed to claim he had a bloody nose and broken, when the blood did not even make it past his bottom lip, and there was none at all dripped onto Trayvon from his nose? No smears, splatters, nothing. Fogen could have also caused the bloody nose or just smeared blood on his tip of his nose, after killing Trayvon, hence no transfer whatsover. There’s no way he had a broken or a bloody nose, and not have any blood smearing, dripping, splattering all over himself and Trayvon.
Whonoze, your theory of ground scratching does not make sense either, because, a cut, even superficial, would bleed immediately. If you look at his bleeding, it all dripped downward. There was no smearing or splattering, which would occur if he was rolling around with those injuries. His bleeding just bled downward and then stopped at his chin.
Jun- with you 100%. Blood is a messy, sticky liquid. And you can’t break a nose without getting bruises to your knuckles. IIRC Trayvon had no bruises anywhere, not even his knuckles. That includes no defensive bruises such as covering up and getting punched. Trayvon tried to run away, was on the ground trying to get up and run, GZ grabs the shirts with one hand and shoots Trayvon through the heart with the other. Not too hard to envision.
Sent from my iPod
http://www.mma-core.com/videos/fights/BJ_Penn_vs_Georges_St_Pierre_I_UFC_58_USA_vs_Canada/10003127
Look for yourself
GSP is bleeding profusely and was not even knocked down and his nose was not broken
Look how much blood is all over GSP’s mouth
Joe Rogan makes an excellent point that bleeding from the nose would make it difficult to breathe, yet Fogen’s signs showed normal levels, when a bloody broken nose would cause the heart beat and lungs to operate in overtime because of trouble breathing
Watch the second round as the nose continues to bleed and gets all over BJ Penn
And the punch was not even hard contact, just a grazing shot and continues to bleed afterward into the second and the third round
Exactly, and the nose is full of oil glands and sacs that store oil, punch the nose an you get a coating of oil and cells on the hands. All it takes is a touch to the skin of another person to transfer trace to your hands. If Trayvon’s hands had touched GZ’s skin, there would be GZ’s DNA under his nails.
Further Trayvon was timid, he did not let GZ catch up to him. Trayvon had run out of steam and was trapped. Probably because, without any training at all, most children, when frightened go all out trying to escape danger and they simply burn themselves out too quickly. A better trained person will pace themselves and be able to last longer.
All Trayvon did was, when he found himself trapped, unable to run any longer, he turned and asked “Why are you following me for?”, but that was not a challenge but a hopeful plea. His last hope was that this nightmare would end with GZ giving him a reasonable answer. GZ, on the other hand, decided to issue a challenge and follow it up by getting physical, which is why they wound up on the ground. When he grabbed Trayvon, Trayvon dropped to the ground in the hopes that the fall would break GZ’s grip on him so that he could get up and run. Obviously that didn’t work and GZ pulled him back down. Trayvon never even thought of throwing any blows, since he couldn’t possibly imagine them having any effect on this huge, strong monster.
Not only that, I think Trayvon felt throwing punches is against the law…..Fogen being a stranger and all. He wouldn’t want to be accused of attacking an Afro – Peruvian wacko.
There is an idiot over at HP who goes by the name False Narrative, who is using Trayvon’s graduation photo from kindergarten as his/her avatar. I don’t know if his family can prohibit this from going on but, I think they should try. there is no level too darn low for these people to stoop to. I can’t believe those who still blog on that site about this case, hasn’t said something about this person doing that.
These people don’t give a damn how they disrespect this kid who they never knew and, he never harmed anybody in his short life. this makes me so damn angry to see these ignorant B******S mistreat this child in such a rude manner. I hope something bad happens to every last one of them. enough of their shit is enough!
@ladystclaire
I had to leave HP b/c the trolls practically took over. HP would approve the most offensive comments of theirs about a dead child to be published despite complaints/flagging. I just couldn’t take any more. But soon and very soon, justice will be served and Trayvon can rest in peace.
@SG2, I left there as well because, those very trolls had me banned and, I will *NEVER* go back for an account there for nothing. I did not violate their so called guidlines either. you are spot on in every word you have said.
HP just literally allowed these ignorant racist pointy heads, to just take over that site. they did indeed allow the most hateful comments on behalf of those who support a child murderer to be posted. no matter how much we would flag and report, nothing was ever done about them and, it never will.
You can go as far as sending them an email about this and, they still do *NOTHING!* IMO what HP is doing is not right and, it just goes to prove just how morally bankrupt they are!
AOL ruined HP like it ruined Usenet in the 90s.
I just e-mailed the Professor, no response yet.
It’s late, past midnight est.
The Baez thread is much faster
Is that where everyone has gone?
No, don’t see anyone there.
I just found the interview by Jahvaris, Trayvon’s brother. The photo of Tray on horseback, was only days before his encounter with his killer. Not going to put the link here, but if anyone wants to watch it, add the prefix and cnn dot com to this url
/video/?/video/us/2012/04/14/ac-hostin-trayvon-martins-brother.cnn
re case against SZ, update to the docket, taking deposition filed as of March 14.
Nothing new for the fogenfile/
Thanks, Xena and Unitron, we (ahemmm,,, yours truly) should be more careful and selective.
If anyone is interested in an example of the Rene Stuzman issue as she confronts Charles Blow, Natalie Jackson, on Lawrence O’Donnell,, here’es the name of the article on YouTube, posted by politicalarticles. I’m not going to add another vid to this page.
Title: Trayvon Martin Lynching: Lawrence O’Donnell Challenges Orlando Sentinel
If it’s not asking too much, can someone please tell me why exactly does the defense feel the need to depose the victims family. somehow this just doesn’t seem right IMO. what is it that they think by deposing them will in any way be helpful to them? are they going to depose the murderers family as well? that would be one more lie fest.
I can’t forget the lying father of Fogen reading from his script during his first Fox interview. I can’t stand that man and, I would love the chance to spit in his prune face.
@ladystclaire
The defense has no reason(s). That is why they wanted their addresses, so they can dig in their garbage cans and watch to see when they go to the bathroom — stuff like that — hoping to have information that they can question them about. Or to say it another way, questions designed to intimidate, frustrate, and use to emotional blackmail.
@Xena, ay2z and type1juve, thank you guys so very much, you are the best! this defense team is one of the dirtiest that I have ever seen. never before have I ever heard of a lawyer filing a motion with the court, seeking permission to have access to addresses of witnesses, members of the victims family or anybody else for that matter. it’s very evident that the lead attorney for Fogen does not in any way know what he is doing. for O’money to have so many years of experience as an attorney, he is not doing a bit better than a green upstart like Baez. they are both the slime of the earth.
Trayvon will get his justice and then the little angel can rest in peace. if Jon, Jeremy and Jenna had any morals between them, they would tell all that they know. it’s very obvious to me, that they all know more than they are telling LE. if I were in their shoes and there was a chance that my name would be coming up in Fogen’s sealed correspondence, I would be singing like a minor bird while at the same time, throwing myself at the mercy of the state for some kind of immunity. BTW, HAPPY St PATRICK’S DAY TO YOU ALL.
@ladystclaire
What more can we expect since they take legal and procedural advice from the Zimmerman wasp nest?
But then that information can’t slip out to certain people in Florida who under the guise of “vetting,” and “investigating” gives that information to their minions to do their dirty work to harass, defame, and emotionally blackmail.
Why do you think that the Zimmerman wasp nest attacked O’Mara and not West? It’s so West could see the attack and be afraid of what they will say about him if he doesn’t get those addresses.
@Xena I’m so glad that Judge Nelson denied their motion and, it seems to me that the Florida Bar should disbar the both of them because of the fact that they are taking advice and orders from a bunch of rag tag band of *RACIST IDIOTS* who want to see this murdering POS, get away with killing an AA child.
This is such a sad, sad case and what these people are doing is so wrong. these people just make me so ill and, what they are doing is hurtful to me.
@ladystclaire
Bar Associations are very lenient. It’s unlikely that the Bar will get involved in how O’Mara and West proceed in defending their client.
O’Mara and West are already paying for their lack of ethics. O’Mara has shown in open court that he knows the Zimmerman wasp nest violates law, and West has shown in open court that he disrespects orders of the court by persistently arguing with the judge. Just wait until trial. That snake that they represent cannot change his nature.
Let’s try to move it over here, since this thread is giving many trouble.
I know many of you are still reading messages that were posted to this thread, because you’re catching up. But, instead of simply hitting reply or comment, copy the post and paste it into a new message on the above thread. This thread is over 2,000 messages long. I’ll bet that some with older computers are completely unable to get these messages at all. Thank you.
Well, the fogen’s lawyers will want to ask Sybrina about her reaction to hearing the cries on the 911 call, and who she thought was screaming and crying for help. They will also want to go after Tracy’s statement about ‘no’, allegedly overheard by Irwin. How often would someone hear their child cry before being killed, and want to say ‘no!’, not my child! They need to discredit the parents.
Tehy want to know if Trayvon had violent tendencies, and they probably want to catch them in some sort of inconsistency (that they can call a lie).
so basically they got nothing there it sounds like according to your post LOL
ladystclaire, you owe me a new keyboard lol!
I hear ya, lol
@ Everyone. I’m going to e-mail the Professor now. Will let you know if I get a response.
Going to put a Saturday night tune on the jukebox over there. What version to shoose, Elvis,Little Richard, or….
Keep in mind that embedded Youtube videos slow down blogs when there are numerous embedded videos. Word Press has to load the Youtube app. before it can display the blog page or before the blog page is accessible to posting comments.
“Keep in mind that embedded Youtube videos slow down blogs when there are numerous embedded videos. Word Press has to load the Youtube app. before it can display the blog page or before the blog page is accessible to posting comments.”
Running Firefox with Flashblock installed can help avoid that, while still allowing you to load and play the video if you want to without having all of them loaded.
unitron
@onlyiamunitron
I just installed Firefox last night and while this page is faster than when using Chrome, it’s still slow. At least Flash is not crashing, however.
@Xena
I’m not computer savvy…So when all videos go to a blank white page…flash has crashed?
@Sg2
It may have not loaded, or it may have crashed. Chrome loads its own Flash and there is a way to disable it so that Flash loads from your harddrive. However, that didn’t work for me — for whatever reason, Chrome’s flash continued to load — and crash.
Hey gang, let’s start moving over here, the shorter Baez thread, to get some breathing room for all. At least until the Professor gets back to give us new threads.
SouthernGirl2 says:
March 16, 2013 at 8:04 pm
Loading is difficult for me too
@Its because the page is to long word press has trouble loading due to long runnning script ie
Thosand plus replys.
It slows down the page.
Everyones avvin proplemos.
Thats why im concerned over crane an fred.
OOH! I just learned that I get notifications!! I’ve probably missed a lot of responses, trying to find posts again, sorry if so.
It took me several months to realise first to sign in so as to get the menu bar and then that the speech balloon glowed yellow when there was a response to a comment I made! I tried getting comments by email but… I felt overwhelmed with so many emails so I stopped it.
I’m having difficulties loading the page and getting constant script errors. Anyone else? If so, can’t we just move the converstion back to the
Jose Baez thread
w/ only 200 or so posts, in an effort to make posting easier just until the Prof gets a minute or two to put up an open thread or a new post? Just a thought…
Hehheh. 😀 We’re a buncha thread junkies!
Guilty! 🙂
Loading is difficult for me too.
no script errors here, but slow loading, and I suspect that’s our fault.
Finding it helps to clear cache regularly or reset browser if you have that option. Quit the browser at the same time, and reopen seems to help. Patience too.
that’s a good idea. I haven’t even read that one since I’ve been busy last week with stuff.. i’ll meet you there 🙂
Good idea, I’m getting the same things, long loading times and script errors, which also make people think their computer is under some sort of nefarious attack. But yes, now that you mention it we are free to move from thread to thread.
Okay, Nef05, here’s the drill:
1. One person (you) go to that thread and get the link for it, and post it to this one where we are reading.
2. Give notice that we’ll be moving to shorter threads from time to time.
3 Post a message to that thread merely saying “YOU ARE HERE”.
4. Anyone who hasn’t signed on to the thread we are currently using won’t get the “You are here” message. But they will get the link here, so they can go over and follow it.
Great idea, thanks. let’s do it.
Gotcha, done!
Mountainmanpats fuerther up this answers an theres a lot offf em.
Someone posted a link from the gzlegal site.
An where they had promised there supporters.
A COUNT A BILLY BUDDY of all bills out going incomeings ect.
To be tottaly transperent.
An since new Fund Controler printed there short period covering a ocrds .ouple off months off financial records.
Of the top o my head I THINK IT WAS 57 Grand in
Out goings …Liveing exxpences 12 grnd? not sure .
16 Grand on experts micellanious an thousands on other stuff PInvestigaters an the like.
But what jumpped out to me unless I miss read was five hundred bucks per week for security.
From seven grand to one fourteenth of that now needed to protect his ass.
An considering the rate its growing target wise .
Thats one bill you would have thought would increase an all thease creepy dudes wi summit up wi them would make his security bill sky rocket as fast as it leaves his pocket.
But know opposite infact.
If I were a cynical type I would be tempted to think no credible threat has ever existed.
This reminds me of when Bcclist became unattended. I hope we hear something from the Prof soon… even an open thread. Anyone have an inside scoop on any issues with this blog? I really like hanging out here and have made several contributions to show my support.
This is a great place, the only “issue” just like anywhere is that a Zidiot will troll through from time to time, play “nice” and just seem to be playing “devils advocate” after a day or so they show what they really are, can’t take the heat and back out.
yeah, but we can’t take that personally or feel fooled by them, I just try to be aware without being too suspicious.
NBC files for stay of proceedings in GZ’s suit against them.
Click to access defendants-motion-to-stay-proceedings.pdf
Page 19 is particularly interesting; they seem to think the suit might be an excuse to depose witnesses much more easily than for the murder trial (a lot of the witnesses being the same).
He’s cooked
Any news on his bill for security?
Looks like he may have effed himself even more by not waiting to file this lawsuit. Yep, his ass is grass lol!
Ya know….it just goes to show how stupid fogen is………
Going to trial on murder 2……..
And wants to piss off….by suing the……a MAJOR media outlet….
Like they’ll have anything good to say about him in their reports now….
Can BDLR enter this into evidence also? 🙂
Doesn’t this POS know he’s done yet?
Just how stupid is Fogen?? He couldn’t pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel.
Ya know Race…we should sit around a fire sometime as we use many of the same euphemisms….Pouring piss out of a boot and such…..Yeah and my widdle black heart bleeds purple panther piss for him……..
BTW…..handle sanded and stained….jaw notched…..ready for U soon 🙂
That sounds like a plan, my man !! My wife is beside herself about having a custom made back scratcher.
And not only would Fogen get his feet wet in them boots, he couldn’t find a fart in a phone booth.
Farts abound within Camp Fogen as only our collective nose knows, but has anybody been able to find a phone booth of late?
This filing is a great read, step-by-step covering many of the media oriented machinations transpiring since Trayvon’s murder, and between the lines making it abundantly clear that Fogen did indeed racially profile Trayvon with his own words against a pattern of previous calls to cops. Team Fogen’s ambition for a quick settlement peeks through nicely, yet they screw themselves with their own words in other filings that are quoted within. Page 19 is juicy, as Aussie says, and so are many others.
It is a great read and I love the way it infers “..if this many other outlets said this first, why are we the only ones being sued?”
Thanks, Aussie,
REad through the motion, except for the legal arugments so far.. Rachel Fugate is on the job!
This will be interesting.
@aussie said:
And IMO very clever as IMO it makes for extremely compelling arguments for a stay.
The motion is so hard hitting, it’s practically a mini trial in itself. My guess is they wrote it that way so that, if MOM were smart he’d pull the suit, rather than have this motion out there for all to read. It seriously damages his case.
Yes, a really aggressive start giving MOM & Co a clear view of the fight to come if they press on. I personally don’t think they will pull because they are financially in too deep now and I bet their relying on this case to be paid they’ll doubtfully get much from GZ even if he walked unless through compensation claims like this.
@MMP, LMAO about the purple panther piss!
Ruined his reputation? Is he kidding? He never had much of a reputation to began with. He ruined his own reputation when he murdered a 17 year old while he begged for his life. GIVE ME A BREAK..
@Kelly Payne
BINGO!! I suppose he’s going to blame the media for his massive weight gain too.
I guess Fogen took that add “Every night is Pizza Night” literally, or was it KFC ? Wendy’s …….whatever, he’s the size of a house, as we used to say.
His reputation? What reputation? Before blasting Trayvon through the heart, Fogen was an academic dullard about to become a community college flunkout with a pile of debts and lousy credit history including stiffing a former lawyer who hopscotched from job to job, getting sacked at least twice along the way — once from a gig as a bouncer, and another as a used car salesman. Contrary to Sanford cop claims of a clean record, he had a rap sheet that included assaulting an undercover cop, plus a history involving restraining orders with a former fiancee. And for an added touch, a cousin has accused him of long-term sexual molestation.
So go ahead MOM, and you, too, Fogen … tell us all about how your reputation as a deadbeat dunce got ruined by NBC.
The value of the lawsuit is obviously null, dependent as it is on the value of GZ’s reputation, which couldn’t get him so much as a napkin at Starbucks. Where he would be told “get it yourself”! Since his reputation as a cheapskate non-tipper would proceed him. The court would have to ask; “So? What was the loss?”
While on the other hand, the Respondent can file pre-trial motions, that do just like MOM did in the criminal case. Motions that fill the air with blistering criticism and other ideas that might otherwise not see the light of day. Remember, MOM’s side now needs to reply. Then, if the judge does not issue a summary judgement, oral arguments will be a real ‘B’, as high public interest drives the worlds eyes towards that little court room, where NBC is sure to raise numerous hard biting issues and claims, along with their support of their motion.
For Fogen and his attorney’s it will be something akin to having grabbed a tiger by the tail, they dare not let go, even as they regret having grabbed hold. 😀 Poor babies… But as you know, what goes around…
After the bail hearing, the judge and/or the jury is going to rule that GZ’s reputation wasn’t worth a half full bag of Cheetos! 😀
@ Lonnie – I don’t disagree with what you wrote.
But don’t get too far ahead of yourself, procedurally. NBC filed a Motion to Stay the defamation case proceedings – not a motion for summary judgment. All NBC asks right now is to hold off any defamation case proceedings until after the criminal trial.
It’s my understanding from the NBC motion that NBC hasn’t even filed its answer to the Complaint (though an OS report suggested that it had … but then, what half-way informed, thinking person believes any OS reports anymore, especially since the OS didn’t provide any link to any supposed “responsive pleadings”).
You mis read me. NBC has filed a motion to stay. On that motion, the judge can either give a summary judgement and rule without further ado. Or he can decide to have a full hearing on the motion and let each side defend their position. So that’s the issue I’m addressing.
If the Judge decides to hear oral arguments on the motion to stay, NBC’s lawyers can do even more damage to MOM’s case, by working the release of more information into the arguments. Hoisting MOM on his own petard.
It is fairly simple
Wanna know why people do not think I am a crazy racist?
It is because I did not stalk and target a 17 year old teenage kid and try to frame him, and then terrorize and kill the 17 year old teenage kid
I also did not screw a lot of people throughout my life and have episodes of anger issues and issues with people of other races (such as mexicans, arabs, blacks)
I also did not lie in court or ever had to face to indictment
If Fogen would have honestly had some self control and not intend on doing Trayvon harm and stay in his vehicle and not bring his gun, he’d be scot free right now
Colin, it would be perfectly okay to email him. I am sure he’d be glad to hear “his students” are worried about him.
Last I heard Crane posted there’s something wrong with Fred’s computer. But hers was still okay, so he could use that perhaps. I got the impression though that Crane was tied up with some legal issue of her own, so maybe they’re busy on that or even away because of that. I do hope he’s not gone two-wheeling in icy roads again.
Tzar says:
March 15, 2013 at 4:08 pm
Has anyone heard from the prof and his family?
Reply@
Ditto
Ditto ditto ditto ect.
Pls anyone in the know let us know they are ok . Safe.
As its been to long for my comfort.
Not that they owe us any explenations re there not writting on the pc.
Personaly I dont touch mine for months sometimes,And also the laptop.
But as a Blog Runner he must know that we will worry over he an crane.
Script long running is slowing downt the site as welll .
If there unable to write an article fair enough.
But being unable to open just an open thread is what cincerns me an I suspect many more .
I have his email would it be implolite to email him?
Or has anyone else tried an knows if its non confidential pls let us know all is well T Y I A.
I read a mention that Crane Station was spotted writing on Firedoglake, earlier today. So they’re probably just busy.
We did go off topic badly for this whole thread, earliest comments drew the crowd off topic to the topic of the controversial 911 swear expletive adjective for a disputed noun.
I think BDLR ended that discussion best in the first bond hearing of April 20th, 2012, when he referred to the profiling, and also referred to that term that he explained to the court, he did not want to repeat there, but that it was for those who hear it to decide what was said.
Simple. We can argue this or that all day long. Prof has stated his opinion, and in articles, always offered the reader to make their own choice, if they prefer one over the other.
I think we’re all just restless because except for the recent phone info dump, there’s not much going on. It’s like watching paint dry or listening to a leaky faucet . . . Mercury is retrograde. Things will pick up and move forward on March 17.
Two Sides- yep. And Mercury is my ruling planet.
Sent from my iPod
And mercury is what made the Hatter mad……
Musta been the mercury our science teacher let us play with in 6th grade?……………………………
Or the Caterpillar 🙂
I must have lucked out….Mercury was my 2nd car…..and 5th also.
Both Cyclones…but no bad luck !!!!!!
Had a Cyclone myself….a ’68…..the first year they became luxury lead sleds………POS when I bought it….POS when I sold it…..
Wish I still had my ’48 Dodge Delivery sedan…..flathead 6…..first “car” I ever owned….paid 50 bucks for it.
BTW…..Why does a chicken coup have 2 doors?
“BTW…..Why does a chicken coup have 2 doors?”
Don’t know, but I’m sure this will be good !!
Both of my Cyclones were fabulous cars. The 69 had the 290 horse 351 W 4 bbl and I eventually put a 429 in it. With that 3:00 gear that baby flew. The 70 had the 300 horse 351 C and I rodded that one pretty good. Made money on both of them Had a 69 Torino Cobra also….428 CJ.
Race…..the reason a chicken coop only has 2 doors?
If it had 4 doors it would be a chicken sedan……..
Chicken coupe ?? or Hardtop….no matter tron had to jump in, step on your toes and ruin the joke for me.
“BTW…..Why does a chicken coup have 2 doors?”
Because if it had 4 doors it would be a chicken sedan.
unitron
(who is almost as old as that joke)
chicken coop with two doors, no idea unless they want to do fly-thru layings. Why do they have two doors?
Another revisit.
It’s an excellent video, but you know darn good and well that if you posted it at oh, say the outhouse, they would say yes, they looked suspicious and think they were all thugs, no matter what. It is so effn sad to me that such a think would be true, but you know as well as I that it would.
“Hoodies Up !!!”
I think this is the longest Fred and Crane have been away from the blog, yes? It’s disconcerting. I don’t suppose anyone here has a way to check in with them to ease our minds? I think we’d all like to stop worrying about their absence.
I imagine they’d look at 1,500+ comments and say “No, I can’t go in there, too boring, and I bet there’ve been a whole bunch of playground-insult events we’d have to intervene in just like happens whenever we attend to our own lives.” Plus, I think Prof writes for other cases and blogs, and he did put in several essays last week one after the other– at least 4 in 2 days.
Crane-Station has a comment about movie lines up on firedoglake.
I too feel like this is the longest.
whonoze – i have seen a 4 day absence in the past and if you look at fred’s last comment date, i think we are at 4 days as of now. although i have an email addy for him, i suspect it is the same addy where he would be receiving blog updates so i do not suspect it would be of much help.
I’ve discovered the part of Zimmerman’s NEN call that it is definitely scripted!
It’s right at the very beginning!
No way that wasn’t written out and rehearsed after being reviewed and approved by a conspiracy of like-minded individuals seeking to evade any legal peril.
There’s definitely a mastermind at work here.
/sarcasm
unitron
Just found this…..and the link…..
NOTICE…the TOTAL for security for the year so far is only 500 bucks !!!!!!!!!
http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/3/7/george_zimmerman_fun.html
George Zimmerman fund raised $53K, spent $43K in 2 months
SANFORD —
George Zimmerman’s legal fund said it has raised more than $53,000 since the beginning of the year, and has already spent more than 80 percent of it, including nearly $12,000 on living expenses.
In an updated posted Thursday on its website, the Zimmerman Legal Defense Fund Trust released a brief report on its expenses, as it promised to supporters when the fund launched.
According to the report, the fund raised a total of $53,611.11 from Jan. 1 through March 3.
Of that, the report said $43,670.58 has already been spent as follows:
$16,000 on expert witnesses.
$11,734.66 on household and living expenses, said to include most of March.
$500 for security.
$8,716.92 for law firm support and infrastructure.
$5,879.31 in case-related expenses.
$645.94 for fund management fees.
$193.75 in other expenses.
That leaves the Zimmerman defense fund $9,940.53 on hand. The report said the fund is regarding that money as reserves for April expenses.
Fund managers said with the $16,000 allocated for expert witnesses, Zimmerman’s defense retained three experts and an investigator, adding that there is a greater need for expert assistance to properly prepare for Zimmerman’s June 10 second-degree murder trial for the death of Trayvon Martin in 2012. Zimmerman has claimed self-defense.
The defense fund said it has a $30,000 goal for March. That’s after exceeding a similar goal for February, during which the fund raised $33,782.50.
“Funds raised in March will be used to retain the remaining experts we require and to ensure promised payment according to our agreements with experts already on board,” the report said. “We must declare all our experts to the court by March 27.”
MMP- what gets me are the $12,000 per month on LIVING EXPENSES! WTF are they doing? Where are they staying? WTF is costing so much? If they are attempting to hide “escape fund money” into monthly expenses, somebody better sound the alarm. That amount just doesn’t pass the smell test.
Sent from my iPod
Wherever or whatever it is, he may as well live it up rather than squander on an immunity hearing, added legal team members and support staff.
If you read it……it’s nearly 12K for living expenses including most of March…..Then look at all the legal expenses……expert witnesses $16K and such…..then nearly $700.00 in fund management costs…….Who’s managing the fund
And only $500.00 for security since Jan. 1st. ?
Looks like run money to me…….
Living expenses? Forget Fogen’s pizza tab. It’s the Bloomin’ Onion and Steak carryout from Outback.
Just had to do this. Sing along everyone…..
Quick FogenPhoole went over the wall
With a ball an’ a chain behind him
Quick FogenPhoole went over the wall
Send the dogs right out to find him.
In a striped prision suit with no room to move
He headed for the highway
With his chain still dragin’
He thumbed down a wagon said well you’re goin my way.
And they say now
Run Fogen, Fogen run run the hounds are on your trail
Jump-up Jump-up
Run Fogen, Fogen run run they’re gonna send you back to jail.
Sheriff got a shotgun, he do
He’ll fill you full of lead son, it’s true.
He’s also got a blackjack, he’s mad
He’d bust your head with one whack,
Here I go now.
Run Fogen, Fogen run run the hounds are on your trail.
Sweet ShelLie Z was goin’ insane
When she heard of Fogen’s jail break
But she knew all the while ’cause
She sent him a file
Baked inside a fudge cake, and they say now
Run Fogen. Fogen run run the hounds are on your trail
Jump-up Jump-up
Run Fogen, Fogen run run they’re gonna send you back to jail.
Sheriff Jack Banes was a light on brains
But he knew one thing for sure
He took some toughs and a pair of handcuffs
And headed straight for SheLie’s door and they say now
Run Fogen, Fogen run run the hounds are on your trail
Jump-up Jump-up
Run Fogen, Fogen run run they’re gonna send you back to jail.
Run Fogen, Fogen run run the hounds are on your trail
Jump-up Jump-up
Run Fogen, Fogen run run they’re gonna send you back to jail.
Actually, I don’t know that it says $12,000 per month – it says:
“it has raised more than $53,000 ***since the beginning of the year,*** and has already spent more than 80 percent of it, including nearly $12,000 on living expenses.”
But it doesn’t say $12,000 per month.
Rachel- so it works to @ $4,000 a month. So that means security is less than $200 a month. Still fishy.
Sent from my iPod
Notice no mention of payment for the $27K he owes for the previous security………..And now it’s down to $500.00 for the year so far?…………
Doesn’t make it look like he even needs the security…..which I don’t believe he ever did need…….
Just another way for him to play the victim……until it got too expensive……….
$5000 for bacon
$2000 Pop Tarts
I do not know the rest LMAO
Don’t forget 4 Meat Lovers Pizza’s on those 5 Pizza Nights a week.
That’s about another $3,000.00, and I’m sure he doesn’t tip….
It’s possible they’re talking about multiple months’ living expenses. We’ll have to see what future reports hold to know for sure.
Two Sides- after re- reading I see made the assumption that those figures were per month. In reality they are from the beginning of the year. My personal expenses hover around $3,000 a month with a huge chunk being rent. So those numbers aren’t so extravagant after all.
Sent from my iPod
What about all the other expenses?……
Those are what seem odd to me….
Rent?……..Buy a cabin up where I’m at….. 10 acres between 100 / 150K…..with cabin…….I DID NOT SAY Chalet…..a cabin is what you get……$300.00 a month thru the winter on propane and 15 bucks for a SENIOR fuelwood cutting permit…..and a lot of sweat for 4 cords of wood…….No prob….the national forest is a mile up the road from me 🙂
Seen nothing from SM for a day or so……they finally give up?
I used to have Propane heat in my old garage 26 X 32 and well insulated back in the 80’s at 300 a month….but that’s NJ….taxed to the hilt that Propane.
“Seen nothing from SM for a day or so……they finally give up?”
He “threatened” to leave. With his conduct I say “Go away…..and stay away”
My monthly expenses aren’t as much as Fogen’s. But could be if I had more expensive digs, a newer vehicle, etc. etc. etc.
Numbers game? Living expenses, security, could be all rolled up together, why not if the security is ‘live in’ and the lawyer is not looking after the books. Osterman might be living in their house for a change, he said he would give his life for his anger management failure of a ‘brother’.
LOL at Omara
“I will do the work pro bono”
“This money was for my new cadillac, I mean, office update”
Back to rockm Whare the Land
KB trouble, sorry
It’s time for a smile. This weekend at Carnegie Hall, musical ‘proteges’ from over the world, are competing. Found this link some time ago,
Sugar Chili Robinson, playing Numbers. As young Robinson grew, he decided to give up music as he wanted to go to university. His desire was supported by his parents, and he is now a psychologist. Recently, he has returned to music.
Historic newsreel clip about Sugar Chile
absolutely incredible! thanks for posting!
Oh wow!!!! Thanks!
Ryan’s talent had the benefit of teaching. He’s at Carnegie Hall on Sunday.
Re the neighbour an the bathroom flooding inciddent.
At least when he asked me If I had a problem with my bathroom.
As his celing had water gushing through.
I didnt return an say no I dont have a problem an looked down for my pocket to find a phone .To phone a plumber an claim he said well you have a problen now Homie an he punched me in the nose an knocked me on my ass.
He heard a splash an realised I had been lieing to him an had infact flooded the complex.
He then went beserk an got on top of me an started slamming my head on the cushioned tiles..
He looked at the bathroom door I felt he looked an thats when I jumped up opened the door saw the taps still running bath overflowing.
Wich enraged him even more he charged at me saying.
Im going to drown you mother fucker Id just finished tileing that bathroom .
Im going to drown you.
So I was out of time I grabbed him shoved him head first into the scalding hot water .
One time held him under because luckly I was wearing marigold rubber gloves whilst I was on the playstation.
As its more realitic when doing a drive by on G T A Dont want to leave prints.
I must admit this scenario did flash through my mind.
But given this geezer was about six foot tall an almost as wide an probably weighed 380 pounds .
I decided lieing an wheedling out was the most logical way to go.
Neither fright nor flight but just do what feels right.
colin – you are da man… da man with the master plan. loving your words and visions, as always.
I am glad to have “met” you even if it is in cyberspace. Love your sense of humor.
@ Colin. Are u smoking weed? OTFLMBO. You just made my day.
I have to wear a seat belt sometimes with Colin….he’s “Da Man” and he can really reach out and tickle a rib, that’s for sure.
Its not that we shouldnt have debate an differing opinions amongst our members an those that read an dont comment also.
Expect differing opinions points of veiw.
This is the beuty of the internet an letting us talk real time.
Instead of haveing to rely on T P T B An M S M……..
For our information.
If we all agreed an were in lockstep with each other.
Then it would be a pretty boreing blog.
An we can all agree thats not the case.
However no matter how heated some dissagreement may be.
Or how pompous or over inflated sence of importane a person may present them selfs.
Self Promotion is no promotion .
Its propa ganda.
The foggage one does self promotion without any cv or bio to back it up.
In other words in reality you cant cash the cheqes his lips are writeing.
Of course this is also true of cheqes foggagge one writes for anything finance related. rubber ones.
Anyway we are all old enough an ugly enough
Speak for your self.
I AM.
Wouldnt dare comment on my fellow posters visage.
Back on topic we are all experienced enough not to have to resort to personal insults.
Who on here hasnt been an Idiot or said or done some thing idiotic?
I know I have many times.
Who here hasnt acted like a space cadet an started to run a bath an make some toast an marmalade coffee.
An smoked a joint an then played some G T A on the playstation.
An get disturbed by some dam fool knocking on my front door.
Neighbour from two floors down saying he has water pouring through his bathroom.
An am I haveing any problems.
An I swear this is the truth I knew right away Id forgotten about the running taps.
So I turned around went round the corner to where the bathroom an kitchen were located .
Out of sight of the neighbour I opened an slammed the kitchen door so he would hears it.
The water from under the bathroom door was already pouring out from underneath.
So i gets back to front door pronto an says no nothing up with mine what about the guy below.
Said he had knocked an no reply.
All the best I said an closed the door.
Was I a prick yes did I lie yes .
A simple form of ettiquete could solve any problems .
First before we go about thinking of allegeing someone an idiot.
Or doesnt know what there talking about an you think there a double dumb ass.
Let he who has never been an idiot raise the first stone…Or insult..
An none of us could because we have all been guilty of such things in the past.
Second just agree to dissagree an commit to never aiming a derogatary remark or barbed insult at a fellow poster.
Of course I have zero athourity on this blog an any opinions I express are mere sugestions.
Colin Black~ your “mere suggestions” are quite intelligent. I’ll take my share of the blame and move on.
The heart sticker on Trayvon’s phone sadly reminds me of the heart sticker on the tape on Caylee’s mouth area…so much heartbreak.
judy, remember the heart symbol on Trayvon’s phone had nothing to do with death, it was added by someone, maybe a good friend or a little neice, one can only imagine, but it would be out of goodness and love.
In that sense, nothing whatsoever like the ‘other, and that’s good. 🙂
I agree, ay2z. Thanks.
🙂
Yeah, I guess it all makes sense now. Thugs love to skip and place kiddie stickers on their cell phones.
With friends like that you better have a damn good alibi.
LOLO that’s a good one! Frances has repeatedly given law enforcement the best evidence against gz for the hate crime charges. we should really thank him!!LOL
I still waiting for Frank “The Racist Tank” Taaffe to add “….and I don’t blame him….” to the end of one of his “…he was mad as hell and not going to take it anymore…” type comments.
Thank you, LLMPapa! I’m off to tweet it and spread it around.
Might be that it did not matter who the young man was, what he was doing, where he was going, legitimate or not. It may only have mattered to an angry grown man, that someone had to die and everyone would learn not to cross his property watch again. Motive may have been at the time he was ready to kill, knew how to kill, decided why to kill, he was, that night ‘primed’ and ready to act. And found a young black late teens male who dared walk on his turf and who wore a button to mark the spot.
Anger, heat of the moment, he had murder on his mind and it was by accident, the young black male was Trayvon.
That’s kind of how I feel sometimes. It didn’t matter who it was, as long as it was a young black male, you know, one of the assholes who always get away, those coons. He found “one” that night, and Trayvon didn’t get away.
“Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it is clear beyond any reasonable doubt that the defendant was mad as hell and wasn’t going to take it anymore.”
here’s an idiot who thinks he’s knows how Zimmerman was able to shoot Trayvon from the ground.
I’ve only watched the 1st few minutes cas it’s a tad fantastical, in the way that Trayvon would’ve had to be completely still and as some have said, Trayvon’s scrotum would have had to be firmly planted on gz’s bloody face ( maybe that’s what gz really meant to say how he was being smothered!)
ps, I swear these zimmerlovers are scared to death of LMMPapa!! which is exactly how it should be!!
but here it is, try to hold the laughter!! 😆
“….bloody face….” maybe he should have said “..drop of blood on his nose…”
As hard as I tried, I could not hold back the laughter.
OMFG…no comment, because that was THE most lame attempt of a response to LMMPapa. Who made this video?? Lmao
some dope zimmerlover with no common sense. I mean how does gz *buck Up* and leave all that space there so freakin long, AND so high, that Trayvon NEVER falls off??? hello????
How does George end up on his back, he claims first to fall on his back instantly after being punched, then he claims he swatted and ran forward or sideways but how does he end up on his back with Trayvon on top if he swatted his way away. That was one hell of a funny video and a waste of time.
How’s that idiot supposed to explain Trayvon was supposedly bashing his face and grabbing his head and smashing it from his proposed position?
Kneeling on like that, the arms would even be able to reach the head and smash or even have any leverage for the alleged smothering that occurred
Furthermore, Fogenhats claimed he was being straddled. That is not straddling, that he is showing.
And does that person realize that is not a GSW, that was a shot into a bulletproof vest
Exactly, jun. From what gz describes as “straddling” is not pictured in that video’s response.
.
And, we also know that if gz used a martial maneuver to bump Trayvon off his side in order for gz to get to his gun, then we know that gz knew how to use that martial training to get Trayvon completely off of him in the beginning. But, gz did not know that maneuver because he says basically that he was UNABLE to do anything BUT shoot Trayvon.
.
With your advanced understanding of martial arts, jun, perhaps you would do me the favor of rewording (if you agree with me) what I have said in order to make it clearer for readers.
There’s a few mount escapes that Fogen could have done but he never claims that occurred and the forensics and witnesses never testify to that occurring. The trajectory, forensics, and ballistics of the gunshot just make it impossible for his story to have occurred. Even in that video’s alleged stance used, although it is not a straddle or mount, it still does not clue in the trajectory, forensics and ballistics of the gunshot. But logically speaking, Fogen was never at a physical disadvantage or combat disadvantage, even without the gun and was never in any real danger or dire need to use that gun. Fogen made up that story because he got caught redhanded and was desperate to try and get off, so he made up a story, and that parlayed it to bigot idiot racist rednecks and he is very similar to Raul Rodriguez in that they will never admit they are wrong and are both bullies.
If we are to not bother looking at forensics or what the witnesses say, then yes, Fogen could have easily mount escaped. But if we are going to talk about their alleged mount, then technically Trayvon could have changed from that mantis stance over Fogen, into a BJJ mount and pinned Fogen’s arm as he tried to reach for the gun, since they are all claiming Trayvon is an MMA expert. You are right in that part of the mount escape for people who are same weight or lighter in weight, is you have to turn to your side and push the opponent off. However, the only safe way to sweep a mount is to hook the leg and than roll into the opponents guard and then try to move out of the guard, because the other method mentioned, the opponent could easily still kick you in the face after turning to the side and pushing off, because the person on top is still in an advantageous position.
Anyways, scientifically speaking, the second paragraph never occurred, because we skipped the ballistics, forensics, and witnesses. The way he was bleeding from his 2 cm superficial cuts that were healing by the time police arrived on scene, which was fairly fast, he could only have sustained that injury and bled while he was upright, due to gravity. As can be seen the blood all dripped down and then towards his beard. The bleeding could only occurred if he was head straight, and then had his head forward at approximately a 45 degree angle. According to witnesses and forensics, there was never a fight, just a struggle that ensued because all Trayvon was trying to do was get away from the defendant and “get Fogen off him”. The forensics show, he could never have caused any of the alleged injuries and attacks the defendant claimed happen, because it is scientifically impossible, considering the dna and blood spatter and smear readings. I could go more into it, but I will not ruin the state’s case because they have a better picture and work product, since they are looking straight at it, and had the means to conduct proper science tests to see what occurred (word to Knox LMAO)
Bottom line, we can only talk an MMA fight between Fogen and Trayvon if we threw out all logic and reason and reasonableness LOL. Trayvon stood no chance whatsoever from Fogen. Fogen had the combat experience, psychotic brain to instigate and bully others, weapons and tools advantage (gun and flashlight), car, knowledge or the area, size, age (he was a fully developed adult). It was like a Tiger fighting a Zebra and Trayvon is the Zebra, and logically speaking, all the Zebra would try to do is run or try to get the Tiger off him.
Thank you so much, jun. You write so well and so clearly!!
Also notice on the MMA reels of a real fight, that the party in the mount they are claiming, had the other party’s dna and blood all over their arms and sleeves and hands and gloves… hmmm
Wow. Largely unintelligible (WTF?). And essentially an unsuccessful attempt to neutralize LLMPapa’s long line of videos!
Congratulations, LLMPapa!
@Malisha – Maybe this is where RZ Jr. and others have been! Good place for them, eh?
Ah, they’re just using empty language to create a view of possible situations that they are substituting for the impossible ones that reality requires.
Look at the mounted positions depicted. Now, realize that these are professional fighters taking up these positions. Notice how they keep one foot solidly planted on the ground with the knee away from the opponents body? This is necessary to maintain balance, since, as real marshal artist have informed us, a mount position is extremely unstable and it would be impossible for an untrained person to maintain it.
Now you can see it in action in these film clips. Of course, Trayvon would not have known to keep one of his legs lifted for balance. Had he attempted a mount, he’d have easily been thrown off by GZ’s reflexive resistance to being mounted. GZ cannot tell us that he has no defensive reflexes, he’s an angry man and he does have them, even if he wants us to believe that he doesn’t.
Have a camera man standing by and have someone rush at GZ and you’ll see those defensive reflexes kick in. He’s a fraud.
Meanwhile, Trayvon isn’t a violent or combative person, he’s a child who has no experience with violence. So, what can he expect his own violence to accomplish? Absolutely nothing positive, he cannot envision killing his adversary, so all a physical attack would accomplish is to bring fourth the consequences of escalated violence against himself. GZ is combat confident, Trayvon is combat averse! Show of hands, how many here would walk up to Mike Tyson and slap him, if he mouthed off at you? Even if you didn’t know who he was, his powerful build would probably put off most would be attackers. Of course, if you know who he is, then, before anyone would even think of attacking him physically with just their bare hands, they’d have to have some serious training and confidence in their own proven skills. Trayvon has no reason to believe he can overcome this bigger, heavier, stronger and older man, so he has no reason to lay a finger on him, the only effective defense he can imagine is to somehow run away from him. That’s reality, everything else is insanity!
Oh this is reminiscent of some of the trials I have seen where a child molester takes each tiny part of the story that was told and addresses how each tiny part of the story could have been different. Let’s say the child says the guy grabbed her when she was on the swing and he ran with her, holding her hand and yelling “come here.” He’ll say that could have been her falling off the swing and he saw her fall and came up to help and said, “you’re OK, see, here!” as he helped her up. Then she said he pulled her over to his white van and put her in the back. He’ll say, “she could have seen my white van when I was fixing the window.” Then she said he did this and that. He’ll say, “she could have had a burr in her underwear…” and on and on and on. For every one thing, there’s some bizarre possible other explanation.
Re above I got disracted yup.
The foggafe is not Jewish with his ineptnesss of comprehening the law of.
Say nothing .
Also no Hebrew in his D N A re money smarts.
He has the opposite money dumbness…
No self respecting man of Jewish faith whom may no the value of a shekell.
Also knows above all true strength true richness is found in Family Reletives Freinds neighbours commmunty.
An other concept alein to the foggagge one.to place others welfare even his Wife an family before his own best intrests.
No theres nothing whats so ever religous of any faith denoimation or spirtuality about this hollow shell of a person.
Colin Black~ you are absolutely correct. A shell of a human being. My cats have more love in their tiny paws than he has in his entire body.
I’m a little confused about the way Zimmerman fired the shot. I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately and I just can’t picture it.
He pinches Trayvon’s hand between his arm and side, pulls the gun with hand on the arm that’s holding Trayvon and gets a clean shot while he is still holding his arm. Am I correct or am I missing something.
He also said he had “wrist” control of Trayvon
And another statement saying he was being careful not to shot his left hand.
So Trayvon’s wrist was in front of his heart?
I don’t think we’ll ever know the truth of what happened that night…
Me?…….fogen tried to detain Trayvon…..Trayvon pulled back……and fogen pulled the trigger.
That’s the way he tells it in his re-enactment video, but changes it up in his voice stress test video and used this other hand (left hand) to old Trayvon’s wrist and shoot with his right hand.
IMO, you’re missing something.
You are correct as far as GZ’s phony and impossible story goes. He can’t draw his weapon, from this position, without bending his elbow. Since he’s on his back on the ground (supposedly), he can’t bend his elbow to draw his hand up to his waist, by pushing his elbow rearward, which would allow him to keep his upper arm close to his body as is needed to maintain the hold on Trayvon’s hand/wrist.
Instead, GZ must push his elbow away from his body, so he can draw his hand up to his waist, and this action would free any hand pinned by his armpit. Try laying flat on your bed and then try reaching your hand into your rear waist band, you’ll see that you can’t keep a hold on anything in your armpit, you have to loosen up on it.
Of course, this little story told by GZ is yet another self serving lie, concocted in an effort to make it appear that he was engaged in a heroic struggle for his life. Nothing could be further from the truth.
He said his gun was on his waist at his rear hip. the only he could have gotten his gun from that position is if he knocked trayvon off stood up then grabbed his gun and killed trayvon.
1. “What are you following me for?”
2. “What are you doing around here?”
Those two statements are going to send GZ to prison for the rest of his natural life! The only answer he had a right and a duty to give in reply to the question Trayvon rightly asked, was to identify himself and explain his actions. Anything else is criminal, thus he has no right to any defense and his weapon discharge is murder.
Now, maybe no one took the time to explain this thing to GZ. But, he should have known that taking a life is always serious. Instead he wanted to believe in some cartoon land fantasy where slave laws were still the rule. Well… Eat well GZ because your time is running out. You aren’t going to hear much more since your supporter are fleeing. Your donations are probably going to dry up, now that everyone knows for sure that you killed an innocent kid while looking him dead in the eyes enjoying his terror, then sitting on his back to increase his pain.
Come June, however, you’ll be a monster at large no more. May each day you spend in prison be your private daily terror.
|||=> Tick Tock! <-|||
Well said III=> Tick – Tock <=III indeed.
I can't wait to see him in that new prison haircut.
With all due respect to vaudeville, he'll look just like "Curly" …..build and all. Nyck, Nyck, Nyck !!!! After all, who deserves a name like "Chowder Head" more than Fogen.
@Lonnie Starr
Absolutely! But let’s look at it from GZ’s version;
“What’s your problem?” Or, “Do you have a problem.”
Four things. First, GZ stopped walking and turned to face Trayvon. He could have continued walking while saying he didn’t have a problem.
Second, by GZ saying he didn’t have a problem, while going into his pockets for his phone to call 911, he demonstrated threatening behavior. He also lied to Trayvon because GZ did have a problem; i.e., the assholes who always get away who are fucking coons/punks when running away.
Third, the combination of standing still facing Trayvon demonstrates GZ’s intentions of causing confrontation in addition to intentions of restraining Trayvon. The question to GZ on cross should be, “Had the victim not punched you, what were you plans?” “Were you going to ask the kid to stand there and wait with you until the cops arrived?
Fourth. From the time that GZ called and ended his call with NEN, what changed so drastically that he felt the need to call 911? Answer: He came face-to-face with the kid. Why did he come face-to-face with the kid whether by his version or what DeeDee heard? Because he got out of his truck and followed the kid.
Yep, Trayvon addressed him, asked him why he was doing what he was doing and gave him a chance to reply with a proper explanation.
Of course, we know that this version never happened, nor did it happen where GZ claims it did. GZ is not a credible witness, whose word can be taken at face value, because we now know that he is capable of telling lies and that he does so frequently and without thinking. Therefore GZ’s impractical/impossible versions are most likely lies, because that is the simplest explanation that fits the evidence.
a) W8 says she heard:
1. “Why are you following me for?” …
2. “What are you doing around here?”
b) Next thing witnessed is the sound of contact and items falling to the grass.
c) Next the two are seen on the ground, GZ on top by people who are telling lies about their observations, that they’ve had to retract.
d) And on the bottom by people who had trouble getting their statements on the record.
The armed and violent professional combatant, was older, heavier and stronger than the non-violent, untrained and non combat ready youth.
Yet, the armed assailant wants us to believe that he is not telling us lies, when he says that this timid youth, scared him to death by threatening to kill him with his own weapon, which was concealed at all times and the youth could not have known about.
This man who routinely lies, outrageously even, wants us to believe that with all his superior physical advantage and with is firearm secure, screamed out in sheer terror and kept screaming in a high pitched voice, until he was able to grab the kid by the shirts, pull the garments down and towards himself with one hand and fire a shot into the childs heart with the other hand.
Then, after firing that shot, he stopped screaming for his life, even though he believed he missed and that his lethal attacker was still both alive and unharmed.
Does anyone have to be reminded that this unlikely story is being told to us by a man who is a proven liar? A liar who would do anything at all to stay out of prison for life? So, is it any wonder that a timid child in fear for his life, would in the liars story, become this fearsome lethal attacker with every advantage imaginable until his death? Even though the child had no weapon, no training, no confidence in the combat skills he lacked, and yet he would attack an enrage a man bigger stronger and more violent than himself, who had a fire arm and the training to enable him to use it?
What would Trayvon do with a gun if he had been able to get his hands on it? Would he have the confidence and guts to use it? Probably not! If GZ needed training to be able to use his gun, what does that tell us about a child who never had any such training? After all, if the training is unnecessary, why does the law mandate it? Was GZ able to “hit the broad side of a barn” the first time he took his weapon out of the package?
If the gun were not ready to fire, how would Trayvon know? Would he know what to do if the gun would not fire? Or, better yet, before you reach for someone elses weapon, you had better be familiar with it and know how to operate it, otherwise you’d best leave it alone. A gun is only a deadly weapon in the hands of someone who knows how to use it, otherwise it’s nothing more than a useless hunk of metal at best, or a tragic accident waiting to happen at worst.
So, without any knowledge of the state of the weapon and/or its operation, Trayvon would be in no position to take any action regarding it. Worse yet, because of GZ’s size and superior advantage, Trayvon would be so terrorized it’s not possible to believe he could even think clearly. Which is why the lack of evidence of contact on his hands looms so much larger and is much more credible that the self serving and foolishly contrived, unbelievable words of a liar!
@Lonnie Starr. EXCELLENT!!
What GZ did after he was arrested indicates his guilt. If not but for the GPS ankle bracelet, GZ would have taken his hidden passport and left the country to escape being tried for 2nd degree murder.
He still might flee……either the country…..or this world…
He will be free on bail until he’s convicted…..The more he see’s things NOT going his way……that greater the likelihood of the above happening……IMO
@MMPat.
Like being taken to the hospital the night before trial? Using his massive weight gain to his benefit in causing emergency health problems that ShelLIE’s knuckle bandages can’t cure?
OK…….This is getting out of hand with the attacks……and I am not without guilt in this.
I do have a dog in this fight….more than one actually….people I admire and respect….and then to see them belittled?
This has degraded to a “My dogs bigger than your’s” which I do not care to take part in.
I’ll check back with Ya’ll in a few days….after recess.
MMP / CP OUT
Has anyone heard from the prof and his family?
I hope all is well.
Of course the proFogenites believe he committed a racial hate-crime; that is why they are supporting him. That includes Alan Dershowitz, Esq., by the way. He knows what happened but he doesn’t want Fogen to be punished for it; to Dershowitz, what is important in this world is:
#1 – Dershowitz; and
#2 through #100 and counting: Pontifications that make Dershowitz feel like a bigger shot than he ever was.
Strange, much of that is so like Fogen, so like William Kennedy Smith, so like…
Oh well, I digress. We ALL know why Fogen killed Trayvon Martin. It’s just that Fogen realized, after the fact, that he couldn’t just brag about it (“Yeah I brought down one of them Bpa-lack suspects all by myself without the police to help me because they’re not competent enough to do what’s needed around here to protect us decent Americans and Afro-Peruvians”) and get away with that. So he made up a pile of crap and Wolfinger forced it down Serino’s throat and only after the million hoodie march and the two million signature petition did the worm turn —
Choo choo choo choo (boo hoo boo hoo) choo choooooooo….
Speaking of William Kenendy Smith –. his attorney was Miami’s Roy Black, several cuts above MOM and West.
Sorry, computer hiccup. Getting back to William Kennedy Smith’s lawyer Roy Black. … Black endded up marrying one of the jurors from that trial.
She became a castmate on The Real Housewives of Miami. Their son RJ, like his old man, occasionally appears on the show, and in at least one episode, one of Black’s cases came up.
Only in Florida …
“Speaking of William Kenendy Smith –. his attorney was Miami’s Roy Black, several cuts above MOM and West.”
I’m not sure I see the point of judging “lawyers Zimmerman could get on a pro bono basis” against the “lawyer a Kennedy could afford” benchmark.
unitron
Granted, Black and his firm have plenty of big bucks clients including Rush Limbaugh (barf!). But they’ve also done notable work defending average Joe families, some for reduced fees, some pro bono. One notable case involved accusations of shaken baby syndrome where police and prosecutors in Lee County Florida (another hotbed of redneck ignorance) tried to go after a frightened couple with some Knox-style crappola. In stepped Black and his team of experts — and voila — the prosecutor folded, telling cops to shove it and dropping charges.
My point (if indeed I have one) is that Fogen might have ended up with classier, brighter and definitely more professional representation had there been anything to his self-defense claims other than endless bull.
Jun says:
March 14, 2013 at 8:07 am
He’s obviously not Jewish because if he was, he would understand the law, because Jews are good lawyers (as Adam Sandler always jokes) LOL
I agree an People off Hebrew Decent are aso known or are alleged just like the Scots to be rather thriffty if not outright frugal with there money.
This of course doesnt even raise to the standard off urban legand.
An is fact often used in a seggoatery manner to describe all Scots as tightwads.
Nothing could be further from the truth in reality Scots are generous.
But also even in the mhyth.
Its Aberdonians whom had the reputation as being tight .
Cobwebs in there wallets ya da ya da da.
An of course Aberdeen is in Scotland so over generations Aberdeen morphed into Scotland as a Country.
Thers are so many sayings dittys an homilies told that are utter B.S.
Animal world abounds with false narritives.
Repeared so often the become entrenched in peoples brains as fact.
Lemmings commiting mass hari khari when there poulatio levels reach untanable levels.
This conclussion made by one man whom wittnesses several hundred thousand maybe Lemmings plunge over a cliff into the sea hundreds of feet below.
Since his observations its been proven as fact that migrotry animals birds incects mammals bats an hosts of soecies have inbuit gps systems with in there brains.
Thay can litterly sence the n pole s pole an every thing in betweeen.
Nature invented radar before mamals had even evolved.
Back on point those lemmings got wrong readings or perhaps there had been a land brige that was there prior to collapse an cliff appeared over night.
Nope he made his theory of noble lemmings commiting mass suiside an its syuck till this very day.
Perhaps the most stupid an yet famous one that people except as fact till present.
An Ostrich when it feels danger aproaches is so stupid.It burries its head in the sand? In the mistaken beleif.
That if it cant see its attacker the attacker wont be able to see him or her…
Makes perfect sense doesnt it an animal blessed as the fastest runner on two legs on the Planet.
An animal that can out run a lion plus turn on a dime as far as manuverebility goes..
Is going to ignore all those gifts an burry his head in the sand.
Methinks any animal displaying this type of behaviour would become extinct rapido.
Early Europeans visiting Africa were un used to an confused by heat haze an false horizons an low lever water effect mirage.
You know when your driveing on a summers day an you see the flat water effect caused by heat.
Thease Europeans saw simmilar effects on the vast plains of Africa teeming with game.
They mistakeingly took the Ostriches heads disapearing whan they bent down.
As them burrieing there heads in the sand.
Perspective was also of as they could see what looked to be almost next to thease strange birds.
When in reality they were hundreds of yds away.
An they wouldnt waste energy even attempting to chase an ostrich.
But they reported what they thought they saw.
Big huge birds an Lions right next to them an instead of fleeing they burrie there heads in the sand.
An another peice of human ignorance over natures brilliance is born..
One thing led to another on the NBC blog and I ended up posting these questions:
.
.
1. How are you going to handle the shooting location gz pointed out in relation to the location of the body?
2. How are you going to handle the location of the keychain with flashlight in relation to the body?
3. Witness 18 is the only witness that saw who was on top at the moment the gun was fired.
4. If gz was on the bottom, why isn’t the blood smeared on the back of his head?
5. Why was there no blood/DNA from George on Trayvon’s hands?
6. Why did Trayvon only have a small cut on the underside of his ring finger?
7. Why is there debris on the toes of gz’s shoes?
8. Why is the wound at intermediate range and the bullet holes in Trayvon’s sweatshirts at contact range?
9. Why did the cries for help end with the gunshot?
10. How did gz manage to pull out his gun if he was being straddled by Trayvon?
11. How are you going to explain that, if gz had wrist control of Trayvon, that his life was in danger?
12. George was never perpendicular to the sidewalk according to Jon’s wife and John.
13. What was gz doing with his free hands when he says Trayvon was punching his face and pounding his head into the concrete?
14. What was gz doing with his free hands when both of Trayvon’s hands were being used to cover gz’s mouth and nose?
15. Why did gz need to have the arriving officer call him on his cellphone?
16. See Click> ___
17. Why did gz need to get on Trayvon’s back and hold him down after shooting Trayvon in the heart and feel he even needed Jon’s assistance to hold Trayvon down?
18. How are you going to reconciled gz’s statement that Trayvon saw and reached for gz’s gun before gz shot him WITH gz saying that he thought Trayvon was indicating after he was shot,gun”?”I give up, I see you have a gun.
Here is gz saying that:
Click> Just found out about the gun?
19. Why was gz’s blood pressure normal just 15 minutes after he thought he was going to die if he did not shoot Trayvon?
20. What are you going to do about Wagner’s photo (taken before the EMT “cleaned” gz up?
see Click> Blood All Over His Face & Hands
21. Why haven’t you ever responded to this series?
A Walk With Marinade Dave + part 1, 2 3
22. What are you going to do with John saying he saw the struggle go from the grass next to the back of his townhouse to the dogwalk before he went inside to call 911……
a. …..in order to insist that positions could not have changed?
b. …..in order to insist that there is no way that Trayvon’s phone could not fallen out of Trayvon’s pocket at that time?
.
Listen to Click> A show of Hands
23. How are you going to reconcile all of gz’s different accounts in this group of gz’s audio statements?
24. Why were there no grass stains on the back of gz’s jacket if, as he says, he shimmied on the grass with the full weight of Trayvon on him?
25. Why were Trayvon’s hands under his body instead of out to the side where gz’s says he was holding him down?
@yahtc. Very good questions. On Yahoo when such questions were asked, the responses were to deflect to posting insults about Trayvon’s parents, Rev. Sharpton, etc. Such comments reveal his supporters really do believe that GZ committed a racial hate-crime.
Details, details, details……I’m sure FogenPhoole can set it all straight when he testifies….
It’s really amazing when you look at a list of questions like that and then realize how many more questions can be asked.
yup
yup X2
yup, yup, yup
Quadruple yup without a bypass
No doubt it sucks to be Fogen about now. I can’t imagine him getting through cross examination….without blowing a gasket.
All he needs to do is: Get in the BOX – just get in the BOX and tell it, big boy.
I like that ! “Get in the BOX” I’m just afraid the Bible will spontaneously combust when he says “I do”
How about that for our Leatherman blog button / bumper sticker / etc: Get in the BOX!
(Copyright by Romaine, of course. I bet she’d cut us a deal. 🙂 )
That would be just Fab !! Picture him getting up in the BOX, gets sworn in, and when he sits that Phat ass down…… the chair collapses….
The more evidence I look at, the more I realize that even more of GZ narrative is a lie. It also reveals that the NeN call was not reporting actions/activities contemporaneously as it once seemed and many once were led to trust, having nothing to refute or controvert it. But now, we have enough evidence to show that much of what is in the NeN call is scripted and does not actually convey activities contemporaneously, but instead is designed to mislead.
Here’s something to consider:
In this new age of technology, 911 and NeN are misconfigured protocols that fail to take advantage of the state of the art.
No longer need, 911 and/or NeN Operators (911 herein after), remain totally in the dark about the areas reporters are talking about.
This is because when these systems are contacted from cell phones, there is the possibility of also capturing a video feed, an option that was heretofore not available. Thus, 911 systems need to be upgraded to take advantage of cell phone still image and video capture capabilities.
First there needs to be a few things worked out with cell service providers, to waive any fees associated with transferring data to emergency centers via 911 calls. Perhaps there might also be police “keys” that would allow 911 call center techs to assist in operation of the callers phone (permission granted of course), since not all callers are familiar with all of the features their phones offer.
So, with this kind of system in place, Sean would have been able to ask GZ to activate his phones video, so that Sean could direct GZ to scan certain areas. While Sean knew that GZ was calling from a cell phone, and GZ knew he could take and send images. Neither thought to either do so or request it. I’m sure Sean would have had a very different take on what GZ was claiming, if Sean were to have seen a picture of Trayvon.
Also, 911 operators need to ask NW’er who report in, if they are carrying a fire arm, so that more specific instructions can more forcefully be given. What GZ was attempting to do by lying to Sean, was to somehow implicate NeN in the crime. Note how he attempts to make NeN questions and instructions as “misunderstood” orders to take action. As if to say “I had no choice but to do this, because NeN wanted to know that, or asked me to do this”. Blaming NeN for putting him in the position that led to the shooting.
Well said & I’ll add that in our town, the police have in their computer system info of all guns registered to what owners by name and address. If you have had any incident with a with a gun, that info is in their system. Back in 08 I had to call the police to my shop to throw a customer out that was creating a real problem. When the 1st two officers arrived I I’d myself, and explained what was going on. After the little punk kept threatening me in front of the cops, the sergeant, who’d arrived alter stated “….I understand you have several firearms that are registered Mr. racer?”
He wanted to convey to the thug I was armed and back off. I asked later about that and he said they know, for their own good what they are walking into. Even if I called from out on the road somewhere, my name shows I own guns and could be armed.
Now that you bring up the cellphone call Fogenhats made to NEN to speak to Sean
I realize
That they could probably track the location he called from and where he was throughout the call
Imma laugh if that is in the work product because he is beyond toast
Oh he’s toast alright. The phone calls & text messages along with the GPS findings will make him look like a suspicious piece of blackened toast.
YAHTC~ Now you KNOW you’re not going to get a response! Not that he doesn’t know the answers, only that he won’t admit them. I mean, who wants more egg on their face?
YAHTC~ BTW they are ALL most excellent questions. If the prosecution just goes down that list, they can nail GZ with the answers. Well done.
If the prosecution has gps data as you all are speculating why wouldn’t BDLR tell the defense that and offer some kid of plea deal to fogen like 20 years instead of life.provided he admit and explain what really happened.Or maybe they have and fogen wouldn’t acceptt it and he’s hoping the jury will buy his bullshit story hook line and sinker.
The other day, got some vibes on this thread, and whoa and behold, the word ‘shill’ popped into my head, I;m not sure anyone got the same vibes or not. 😉 One comment revealed an attack on myself and all of us, for basing comments from a position of prejudice, but apology followed, so didn’t respond. Sometimes you just don’t know, taking the high road and not engaging, might be the way to reveal on radar, who’s got their tin foil hat on when they come in.
Hang in here with us! We’ve gotten through this kind of thing before, and we will this time, too. 🙂
I’ve been meaning to ask someone, where’s jun?
what is the tin foil hat thing? I never get the joke!
My GF wears tinfoil undies…..to prevent immaculate conception….AND to avoid being impregnated by Aliens….
I don’t believe you….you’ll have to post a picture…..
Hey, Shannon! I’ve been meaning to ask, “Where’s shannoninmiami?” Glad to see your fonts.
(I still feel funny saying that “fonts” thing … but I’m trying in my old age!)
Hey!
we got the *nice to see your fonts* from Professor!
=^..^=
People who believe in bizarre conspiracy theories wear “tinfoil hats” to keep their brains protected from alien propaganda:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tinfoil+hat
Thank you! I never heard of that saying I guess.
ok so it’s like the peeps who put tin foil on their windows to keep the KGB out!LOLOL
Remember it is a Conservative Tinfoil Hat
What differentiates this certain tinfoil hat, is racist conspiracies against the almighty whitey and the world being taken over by the Chinese, the Jewish liberal media, and black racists
It is very important to Afro Peruvian decent Americans who mentor black kids every day
yeah right!!!
but you know i’m so sick of people trying to insert politics into this CRIME of MURDER!
I swear i’ve never hear such BS when these tv pundits try to say the people are divided down the party line in this case!
oh and the black and white line too? uhhh no.
there is only the right and the wrong. I can’t stand to hear that!
so some fool crawls out from some rock, can chase someone’s kid through the neighborhood and shoot him dead in front of ten people, and can expect to get away with it? ummm I don’t think so.
Trent posted these videos on youtube yesterday. He puts a lot of things into perspective.
I luvs me some Trent.
Thanks for posting this.
Not sure why he has Trayvon going back to RTV Circle.
As many scenarios as I have run around in my mind, I never came up with that one. LOL
dbj~ Trent reminds me of the guy who narrates the Honey Badger. TOTALLY unrepressed.
Trent has some good points about the darkness / ambient light situation and how narrow the grassy area is and how easily heard people are back there if the people living in the condos are downstairs and near their back doors.
Those who called in on cell phones have gps trails on the e911 system. So their locations can be determined. Fogen is going to be toast. John had to back off his MMA style blows has to mean that the SP was able to independently confirm that they never happened. Because John was counting on his story not being contradicted. Just like GZ was counting on there being no evidence to contradict whatever story he told.
Not understanding the SYG law, left them all thinking that who threw the first punch and GZ’s injuries would be the critical pieces of evidence that would win the day unchallenged. Boy were they ever wrong. Meanwhile E 911 is cooking a fair number of geese.
GZ’s goose first!
|||=> Tick Tock! <-|||
I’ve been saying since May and stand on it…Phone Records…Text Messages….and they emanate from……………cell phones !!
I don’t know as much about e911 records but the phone records alone will crush Fogen.
Of course who called who about what and when is a critical part of this saga. But, only after it’s proven that someone or others were working together to achieve the results obtained. That proof comes in the form of the cctv analysis, which shows that there was no vehicle that attempted to leave the RATL at and around the appropriate time.
The only vehicle that does appear and go through the motions that are close to what is described at the time of the NeN call, is one that first passes up taking a post at the mail shed. But, it instead turns around and retraces its path, still without any attempt to exit via the front gate. Then suddenly stops, reverses again, and this time heads straight back to the mail shed it had abandoned before, and this time takes up station there. The cctv’s time stamps place this event in very close proximity to the start of the NeN call, while the caller himself places himself very close to this exact same position.
That should be provenance enough that the cctv’s have faithfully captured real events. Which, in turn, reveal that the driver is receiving information about whomever he was seeking, because he could not have seen or otherwise been aware of the existence or whereabouts of person he finally came to focus his attention upon.
The lie he tells about the cut through near Taaffe’s is designed to make it appear that he made a coincidental discovery, thus no notification was needed. Since that is a lie, because Trayvon is at the mail shed at or before 6:54pm, which is before GZ’s vehicle is detected on scene by the cctv’s, nor does it stop near Taaffe’s, as the narrative requires it should have. Nor does it park in front of the clubhouse, as the narrative requires it to do for the start of the NeN call. Instead, after passing up the mail shed and getting called back, does it take up a position at the mail shed, in time for the start of the NeN call and at the time Trayvon reports he’s being followed.
GZ is an adult, ex bouncer with episodes of violence in his past. He exhibits anger, disgust and a predisposition towards young black males, such that he’s driven to the use of profanity to make the encounter the more remarkable to the police dispatcher. Not only does GZ falsify events and attempt to spin his observations in a most sinister way. GZ is also armed with a deadly weapon, loaded with cheap — and therefore poorly performing ammunition, likely to fragment and be increasingly lethal — hollow point bullets.
As GZ talks to the NeN dispatcher, sounds are heard on the tape, which likely come from inside GZ’s vehicle. They are sounds that are not unlike speech and of a weapon being handled. When GZ exits his vehicle to give chase, more strange sounds are heard, especially after GZ stops running. These strange sounds include knocking/rapping and again a sound not unlike a gun being handled. Yet, while GZ has been confronted with this tape and has listened to it several times, no explanation for these strange sounds is given. Even in spite of how remarkable they are. Only the sound of knocking is explained as an attempt to get a flashlight working. A flashlight that the lead detective finds to be working flawlessly. Is GZ telling yet another lie to once again conceal the presence of an assistant? Well, if the flashlight was being troublesome, we’d at least expect that to be confirmed, by continuing to be troublesome for the lead detective. Yet the lead detective’s only discovery is that the flashlight is a flawless performer. Given GZ’s propensity to lie, the flashlight is unlikely to be the source of the knocking being heard. Any investigator would certainly be a fool to accept GZ’s word for the matter.
Finally we hear “impartial witnesses” who observe the scene, make up stories that include fictitious actions, actions that did not happen, but that somehow coincide with the very lies GZ will tell. Why would witnesses involve themselves so deeply in a matter that they’ve only “coincidentally” had an opportunity to witness, involving people, none of whom they supposedly knew at the time?
Even if you believed that your giving false reports to the police — thereby hampering their investigation, by making them believe that the wrong party was within their rights, when in fact and in truth they were not — why would you do that even if you believed it unlikely your deceit would be discovered? Because, without knowing either party, why would you care enough, to risk committing a serious crime on behalf of a stranger? Or even a friend who had broken the law? Why would you make yourself a party to the crime? The answers to these questions are both serious and very troubling.
Wow !! pretty good thoughts for an opening statement counselor !
Nothings to good for the Fogenfool. I’m sure that the SP and the defense have assigned interns to monitor this blog, among others. It’s the nature of the beast today, no high profile case can do with out internet monitoring. It won’t be long before some outfit like google or yahoo begins offering a professional monitoring service of some sort.
I know for fact that most of these blogs are monitored. My connections have all told me what is and isn’t important. I can tell you the videos that LLMPapa and the like are analyzed. Some have a wealth of useful information and some are considered entertainment. Back in the late summer myself and a friend of mine were able to get one of the worst out in the open and when I found a video of him doing a Neo Nazi indoctrination involving gun play, I turned it over to one of my guys. One of their informants recognized the background and his ass, being already wanted, was arrested. Bye, Bye Rugar.
So we all play a small part whether intentionally or casually. I just wish the Feds could do more about the internet stalking and such. No matter, the Zidiots are in full blown retreat.
As far as E 911 goes I have a starter kit here and of course you can google for more.
Lonnie Starr~ Thanks for the e911 info!
Lonnie- thank you for explaining that e911 aspect! I remember reading about that years ago, and the paranoid among the population going crazy about “invasion of privacy”. Then I read about triangulating cell phone signals using the available cell phone towers ( ping locations) and had collapsed the two technologies in my mind. I can see that that information will be very damaging to GZ.
Sent from my iPod
I’ve got a starter kit on e911 here.
Sanford upgraded to e911 sometime back in 2005-07, originally the system used “triangulation” between the towers but that was pre 2000 technology. The later technology uses a sort of app, that grabs geo positioning data from satellites. The military system used to be more accurate than the civilian system, but I understand that everyone now has access to the military grade data. So that now the only question would be, how often does the phone system one subscribes to polls for gps data. Obviously one poll or sample per second creates 60 records per minute. My guess is that one sample per 15 seconds or 4 samples per minute might be more acceptable.
We’d have to know who the carriers were and go to the message boards for those carriers, some tekkie there will probably know the sample rate, or maybe Answers.com has it? I know Trayvon was on T mobile, what service did GZ have?
Lonnie~ Cheapo GZ probably had a Tracfone or other pay-as-you-go no-contract carrier. But i don’t know for sure. I have multiple apps that ask my permission to use my “current location” in order to send me information. Even my Mapquest app can guide me to my locations with a moving dot. So, yes the technology has advanced quite a bit beyond triangulating cell phone towers.
Kimmi an Romaine just catching up on some o last night posts.
I wrote a few posts here an there.
But was unaware of the tension an discord beetween Xena whom I respect immencley.
Kimmi Romane you have offended no one.
Even the search ing ones umbrage was faux offence..
I respect Searching mind an I think we all can agree he has written many valid on point posts that have enlightened me to certain asspects of American Law I had nae ken off.
Searching mind you are far fron an idiot..Perhaps in choice of fashion or decor you may be,,
But this I also ken nought.
I aso know you in no way consider anyone an idiot excepting the foggagge one.
An to that we all concour.
Si it hurt me when I see people I admire an respect being refered to as an idiot.
Compounded by the fact a seaeching mind of your genious levels of perception.
An understanding of the human condition.
Could Xena Kimmi or Romane warrant that Insult.
An the very fact you no this compouns the insult reduces it to venom an spite.
Wich my gut tells me is not you .Not what your about..
Romaine wrote a beutifull Post a couple nights ago wich was so fitting moveing truthfull.
An even us people follwing the case were inawe of her articulated verbage she used to convey bot just her feelings.
My feelings all our feelings written fron the Lady with a huge heart an empathy for all the victins suffering for the actions of the foggagge ones dession to murder this defencless screaming child.
Please searching mind dont leave I welcome each an every persons imput written here.Even as often is the case its at odds with my
own thoughts.
Some here dont post but read others comment often with gusto.
At times people like myself with dyslexia or poor spelling an grammers skills
Or to whom English is not there native tounge .
Frustrate people whom have perfect gramer noun verb usage the whole 9yards.
But we are not idiots an do not set out to frustrate.
An at blogs like this where the stazi spelling an grammer police are not tolerated.
You cut us slack long as you can read our posts thats what matters.
You never belittled people for grammer or IQ unless its the defendant an most of us have been guilty of that.
So this sudden animosity towars certain members puzzles me.
Are you locked in a cupboard an your wifes impersonating you to get you banned…Maybe its none of my buisness.
But I consider you all cyber aqauitances an freinds.
An I hate confrontations amongs my freinds.
Searching Minds Xena is not an idiot no more so than you.
I beleive you owe some people an appoligy also beleive you ditto that sentiment.
Searching Mind search your heart an do what you feel is right.
An if you ever feel the urge to call one of us an Idiot then choose me.
Just stick Savent at the end.
Peace out an in………………..
@ Colin……But I AM an idiot…….Example follows..
JUST WHAT I NEEDED!
You da BEST! Thank you! 😀
Colin, thank you. I did nothing for SearchingMind to personally attack me. It’s happened here before where someone starts by posting questions about GZ’s case, and the next thing we know, I become the center of their attention and personal attacks.
There is something very revealing also. SearchingMind conveys that he has more education and knowledge than the blog’s owner. IOWs, he is a critic of the professor whose purpose is apparently to verbally vandalize the professor’s blog.
Food for thought…..
I got up about 3AM MST……no idea what time SM is on……For me though….at that time I saw new posts of SM’s going in the same direction……
No matter…..U’z still my buddy 🙂
BTW……with women….yeah I might look at the boobs first…..then I look at her mind…….can’t stand airheads……I’ll take mind over body any day………a librarian / pornstar would be nice 🙂
“a librarian / pornstar would be nice :)”
My dad said to marry a rich ex- exotic dancer that owned a bar…..and a fishing boat.
racer~ as long as she loves NFL football, what’s there not to like? 🙂
That works for me…I’m a huge football fan….played many years so I guess she needs to own a Sports Bar then.
MMP~ You just cracked me up!! A librarian/porn star!! ROTFLMBO!
Racer– does your Mom fit that description? Otherwise, I would wonder about the advice.
Xena has never hurt anyone here, and I’d bet not anywhere else either. I respect her (that’s my guess) knowledge of this case, intelligence, patience, diplomacy, and just plain kindness.
I’m not as familiar with Romaine, but all indications suggest a warm and deep, peaceful person of faith and much more, who blew us away recently with an heartfelt, awesomely written, and powerful message.
As for Searching, he’s been insufferable for the past couple or few days. He seemed to fling his anger at almost everyone, once he got started, and of course refused to tolerate any differing views. I mean, I’ve seen him be rather pompous several times, but aren’t we all (or some of us imperfect folks, like me) on occasion?
But this was way different. And I thank all of you for trying to deal with him, because every time I started to, it looked way too ugly so I just stopped. Colin, you are a saint for reaching out to him (that’s my guess), and I’m glad you did. Thank you.
I’m wondering if he got off of his meds, or started new ones, or something. Seriously. But whatever it was, he’s got some ‘splainin to do!
Thank you ALL!!!
He’s been on other sites and does the same thing. He’s as far from being a Team Trayvon member as could possible be.
Really? I’m surprised (and apparently naive).
Xena has always been respectful and kind to everyone. For Searching Mind to attack her for her beliefs are beyond the pale. He/she responded to my comment to Romaine with mocking. I’m done with them from here on out. Mia Angelo says when someone shows you who they are…believe them.
**Waves at Fauxmccoy** I’m going to be quiet now.
@SoutherGirl2. I thought about adopting your use of Della Reese. 🙂
bwa ha ha ha ha
No one can say it better than Della! 😉
(Xena, exercising lots of restraint while LMAO.)
I understand.
Just because SearchingMind is a militant atheist doesn’t make him a Zidiot. Just because he has a hot-button on a side issue doesn’t mean he’s trying to undermine the blog. I’m not aware of his criticism’s of Prof. Leatherman, but many of the Prof’s comments are hardly beyond critique.
Remember the high road? It’s not just noble. It’s practical. If commenter S baits commenter X by calling X an idiot, the way not to derail the blog is to not take the bait. It seems SM was ready to back off, and then he got counter-attacked and the flames re-ignited.
IMHO, SM had a valid peeve in his original post, though I would say he framed it too confrontationally. He asked people to leave their religion out of the discussion, which I take to be a legitimate request, but also one that people who post here should be able to consider or ignore as they choose.
Like SM, I wince at some of the expressions of faith and spirituality here. Unlike SM, I choose to ignore them. I would choose to ignore SM’s rant against them as well. But the flame war iS deraiing the blog, and everyone participating in the exchange of ad hominem attacks has to take some responsibility for that.
**hoping we can all stay on topic in the future**
excellent observations, whonoze. it is easy of course for me to say so since i agree with them.
@groans. Thank you for witnesses to my nature and ways. And, thanks to everyone else who has come to my support.
Now, let us put the issue behind us and ignore the agitator. There is still an accused murderer who killed a 17 yr old unarmed child awaiting trial.
Justice for Trayvon!
groans~ you’re a pretty fine human being yourself. I, too, am not without guilt in this, but I’m a white hispanic; I get hot under the collar. I’d prefer a peaceful resolution. Pettiness brings us all down, and again, mea culpa in part of that. I’m grateful for the cooler heads like you and Faux McCoy who speak up with sanity.
appreciate the compliment cielo. i cannot tell you how good it felt to say what i wanted, walk away and take a nap so i could disengage.
Faux McCoy~ I envy your online coolness. You’d never know it by my online writing but I’m pretty calm in my classroom. Kids don’t faze me at all. I can handle bugs, snakes, blood, puke, you name it. I expect that in 2nd grade. But I get impatient with adults, since I expect more mature behavior. Instead, I turn into a hot head myself! Oh well. I do appreciate your calming words and sane response. I’m off to my bed soon as well. Have a super night!
Breaking news The Conservative Tree house have discontinued their George Zimmerman blog due to the many “trolls”. lol
The Zimmerman wasp nest was taken down. They’ll just find other places to go with their poison.
i do not normally look at the treehouse or talk left – but did find this to be an interesting development.
didn’t talk left just go through some odd change as well so that some sections became ‘closed’ or that only established accounts could comment? obviously, i am not clear on the details because i do not visit – but if anyone does know, would you mind posting?
if the two best known pro-gz sites are undergoing radical changes, that would appear to be more than mere coincidence.
I do not visit Jeralyn’s site too much. They did close some sections but she keeps the main blog open. She’s pro-defense in all cases I think. Because of that the Zimmerman lovers believe she’s one of them. That’s my take.
She made one crucial point about the Zimmerman trial, he should have kept his mouth shut and gotten a lawyer. Had to agree with her on that.
Blogs (which provide IP addresses to LEOs and so forth) suddenly going silent about Fogen would make me wonder if this isn’t part of a plan for Fogen to vanish. He wouldn’t want to be posting (and have his daddy and etc. posting) from places that could be located; and he wouldn’t want to have those who are getting ready to “disappear” him expose their IPs to all and sundry as they work their “magic” in finding him refuge from the big bad Blacks who are railroading him…right?
Hmmm. What is Fogen DOING now? Where is he doing it?
Why is there radio silence now? WHere’s Daddy? Where’s Mumsy? Where’s bro-Junior, the American expert on racism? Hmmmmm…
Check in any tree-houses?
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=6&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=7KqUAEu4VRZaGGXgDKJZ3Q&cp=10&gs_id=11&xhr=t&q=tree+houses&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.43828540,d.dmg&biw=1236&bih=683&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=2YZDUe3RNvHF4APfmoGADw
“didn’t talk left just go through some odd change as well so that some sections became ‘closed’ or that only established accounts could comment? obviously, i am not clear on the details because i do not visit – but if anyone does know, would you mind posting?”
TalkLeft has had a problem with commercial spam, apparently out of Turkey, but who really knows, but it has nothing to do with the Martin/Zimmerman case.
Jeralyn having a day job and not being able police the site 24/7 has had to block new registrations several times over the past year until the would-be spammers go looking for their next target of opportunity and convenience.
unitron
unitron~ Yeah, I get spam at my work email from Turkey. Luckily their filter catches about 95% of it.
oh god
now they are going to infest somewhere else
Holy Cow! That is surprising news! I wonder if it has anything to do with their recent publicity (infamy?) in a certain court of law.
at the risk of sounding like a forum mommy, i am going to ask that we all do our best to keep our cool until fred returns. this is his house, we are his guests, i would hate for him to return and see his living room trashed.
we all know that there are exploits to word press such that anyone can post using false credentials. i have no idea if this is going on right now or not.
i would ask that each of us think twice (or more) about posting right now. we have but one purpose here and posting in anger to other posters is not it. responding to those who you may feel have slighted you, again, is not it.
as a kindness to our host, i ask that we all practice tolerance at this time, until fred is able to address issues as he sees fit.
thanks and sorry for any lecturing.
Thanks, faux.
@Fauxmccoy
Yes ma’am!
You know……..one of the most outlandish things gz said was that he needed Jon’s help to hold Trayvon down after he shot Trayvon in the heart!!
That would have been a felony charge, assault? The absurdity of it all, manhandling a shot person, it was criminal and cruel, nothing less.
Given that Trayvon died almost instantly, does such a charge exist along lines of perverted abuse of a corpse for fraudulent purposes?
“because he was still struggling and cussing…”
Still “struggling” and “cussing”?
Why would he be struggling?
I think he was fucking drunk or high and staring in his own cop show.
Rachael……psych meds & alcohol………good mix huh?
Psych meds, alcohol and FANTASY.
FANTASY: The mystery ingredient.
Diary of FogenPhoole ………….
February 26, 2012
Dear diary, it’s raining out and a little cool. The cupboard is bare so it’s off to Target for some shopping. We don’t have any money and the card is maxed out, what to do.
My fantasy is to use that finely made Kel – Tek someday, and not at the range with Mark. Well, SheLie says dinner is ready….hope she made enough
March 15, 2013
Dear Diary, It’s pretty nice out today but I have to be back in in an hour. I just can’t seem to satisfy my appetite any more, and SheLie can’t worth a damn so, Pizza Night again..my favorite.
Mark called today and said the Conservative Treehouse is not allowed to talk about my case anymore. Maybe I can get him to shut down Leathermans site.
Oh well, I guess my fantasy now is to get this GPS bracelet off. But I have a new favorite song now.
Lunatic Fringe – I know I’m out there
I’m in hiding, and yet you hold your meetings
I can hear you coming, and I know what you’re after
You’re wise to me this time you won’t let you me keep the laughter
wise to you this tiiimmme
OOO-OOO-OOO-uh-Huh
OOO-OOO-OOO-uh-Huh
OOO-OOO-OOO-uh-Huh
Lunatic Fringe – in the twilight’s last gleaming
Seems like open season, but I won’t get too far
‘Cause I’ve got to blame someone for your own confusion
You’re all on guard this time looking for the Final Solution
all on guard this time
Oh Yea-a-a
OOO-OOO-OOO-uh-Huh
OOO-OOO-OOO-uh-Huh
OOO-OOO-OOO-uh-Huh
We can hear you coming no you’re not going to win this time
We can hear you coming not gonna win
You can hear the footsteps out along the walkway
You can hear the footsteps out along the walkway
Lunatic Fringe – we all know you’re out there
Can you feel the resistance?
Can you feel the thunder?
Oh Yea-a-a
@racerrodig. As Blushedbrown would say, you so crazy.
Where is Blushedbrown?
I’m having problems with Chrome not loading Shockwave. It’s happening too often, so I am downloading Firefox and will be offline until everything is okie-dokie.
Didn’t bb say she had something to do or somewhere to be for a day or 2??
March 15, 2013
Dear Diary….Life sucks. I lost all of my liars, er, supporters on the internet and that LLPapa guy keeps making new videos, as if he were there. SheLie didn’t make enough dinner again so I had to ask security to go out for some pizzas. They must have misunderstood me because they went out, ate pizzas and never brought them back to me.
Life sucks but Mark O’ Mara said I have a good chance of something, I forget all those legal terms. Incarcerated….that’s what it was. He said a good chance of getting incarcerated…I guess I missed that chapter in school, but it sounds important. It’s probably like Immunity, but better.
There’s not much money in my defense fund so I guess Mark won’t get paid this week. (he never listens to me anyway)
Gotta run SheLie wants some nookie so I’ll take my walk now.
In his fantasy, the scrawniest most non-violent hippy kid, is, Black Dynamite, and he appointed himself as the Great White Hope aka Officer Johnson of Twin Trees PD Watch, but he is not longer white like he claims on all his identifications as he is now Afro Peruvian Japanese Korean Muslim Jewish Karate Syrian. I could be wrong though, I have not kept up with what race the FogenHitler KKKlan is claiming to be this week.
I bet you Junior claims to be a white person on all his ID’s LMAO
The Conservative Tinfoil Hat lives in the same fantasy world, which is, listed below in numerical order their beliefs
(1) Every black person is a threat, especially if they are smart.
(2) It is because of the Jews and their liberal media
(3) The Chinese are taking over economy and business, gotta listen to Trump
(4) It is not called incest and molestation and attempted rape. It is called playing doctor.
(5) It is Crump and all black racists’ fault. They have too much power. There was no need to investigate and indict a white, I mean Afro Peruvian Jamaican, for killing a black kid.
(6) Teenage kids are not allowed to run way from them or yell for help or try to defend themselves, due to their imagined authority.
(7) It is not called stalking, it’s called neighborhood watch but not neighborhood watch.
(8) Black people are able to run faster than speeding cars and survive gunshots but are easily overcome by the shimmy
(9) When in doubt, scream and shout, I am not a racist
(10) Because the cops were able to conclude Trayvon did not steal the jewelry, it means that he stole the jewelry and also makes lean with Skittles
(11) If Fogen tries to molest you, attack you, rape you, steal from you, no one is allowed to defend themselves whatsoever.
http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A2KJkK2pk0RRixwAts2JzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dgay%2Bjewish%26fr%3Dchr-greentree_ff%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D4&w=500&h=333&imgurl=2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-oJFFTQ5zbDE%2FTjllSpKkb6I%2FAAAAAAAAM3w%2FkFaHIOaUJ5A%2Fs1600%2Fgay-black-kkk.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uselesshumor.com%2F2011%2F08%2Ffunny-pictures-thats-so-jewish.html&size=32.2+KB&name=UselessHumor%3A+Funny+Pictures%3A+That%26%2339%3Bs+so+%3Cb%3EJewish%3C%2Fb%3E&p=gay+jewish&oid=44e6ef90edeeeb1ad6219261d9d67491&fr2=piv-web&fr=chr-greentree_ff&tt=UselessHumor%253A%2BFunny%2BPictures%253A%2BThat%2526%252339%253Bs%2Bso%2B%253Cb%253EJewish%253C%252Fb%253E&b=0&ni=119&no=4&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=127v69hdt&sigb=13a72ltr0&sigi=12q4hlhif&.crumb=OztY3vRDb0g
Now there’s An All American Group.
I bet they even accept Afro / Peruvians… 🙂
Gay Afro – Peruvian Jews ?? All wearing purple…..walking down Main Street in a 4th of July Parade……in front of those guys in the “John Birch Society”
I am going to bet he told Jon “you shut up about this or I will kill you like this kid too”
Call it a hunch but I doubt even without a gun, Fogen would have trouble with Trayvon in a physical altercation, considering, one is a kid and the other is a creepy crazy weirdo
I hope the Professor and his lovely wife are alright. I’m worried about them.
A video tribute for “Change” in honor of Trayvon Martin
That was a beautiful tribute, with one of my favorite songs…ty for sharing
@Romaine & ay2z
Thank you very much!
Beautiful and professionally presented tribute. Thanks for sharing.
What a beautiful and sensitive tribute in honor of Trayvon. It truly reaches out and touches my heart deeply. oh……Trayvon……
Thank you, YAHTC!
A young life taken away for absolutely nothing. So incredibly sad.
A video tribute for “Change” in honor of Trayvon Martin.
http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit?video_id=Q52wenVvW4E&video_referrer=watch&ns=1&feature=mhsn
@SouthernGirl2
Thank you so much for sharing that video. I just posted it in the comment section of my blog under the March post for encouragement for Trayvon’s family and friends.
Thsnk you, Xena! I’m glad you like it. So heartbreaking.
Correction. Thank you.
A white, Hispanic, Afro-Peruvian man,
Captain George his headin for the can,
Fucking coon he muttered under his breath,
Then stalked and shot a black kid dead,
No regrets, “it was God’s will”, that I am the one left to stand.
Xena, I can’t post on your site and apparently am using the wrong password. What should I do?
@yahtc. Give me a few minutes to check some blog settings and try again. Sorry for the inconvenience.
okay
@yahtc. I was just going to ask that if it didn’t work, to let me know. 🙂
And no — thank you!!!
It just worked! Thanks!
Remember while TM was smashing GZ head into the sidewalk
Hitting him in the face, busted his nose, place one on his busted
broken nose thee othe over his mouth. Blood cover eyes he used his Jedi training he sense what TM was thinking throught all that
pain
Didn’t Kevin the EMT give him 2 Tylenol’s ?? Better living through modern chemistry !!
How did GZ handle all that pain
How could he think in all that pain
Because you and I somewhere banged our head
Could you walk straight or even think with so much pain
Please before you are sent away tell us how to handle the pain
See, that’s what gets me. How could he get in and out of the car so briskly and walk around that way the next day, “like nothing happened.” I know I’d be sore as hell and not moving very quickly. Of course, after all that head banging against the concrete and 24-fists to the face, he should have been in a hospital bed for a day or so at least. gahhhhh.
Kevin the “Miracle Worker” EMT gave him 2 Tylenol….that must be it. Where can I get some of those……
Director “…..okay…….rolling……and ACTION !!!”
Fogen “….um when I have a headache from the concrete I….um…”
Director “CUT !! listen…..I usually work with professionals outside of the prison so, no more stuttering and knock off the “um” all the time…….READY take 65…….and……ACTION !!”
Fogen “Um..”
Director “CUT…CUT….CUT…..lets try again”
Fogen “When I get a headache from the concrete I always reach for the asprin”
Director “CUT…….it’s “I always reach for the “Excedrin”……got it?”
Fogen “When I get my head bashed on the concrete and my brother doesn’t want to see me in diapers, and that wouldn’t be a pretty site, I always use Excedrin……wait, um what are you doing….stop, don’t throw the camera at me….. wait a minute no ! .helpmehelpmehelpmehelpmehelpmehelpme”
So at 1:45 are you saying you got fatter & shorter when you chased arter Trayvon…..or taller & skinier ???
I learned nothing……You get no money.
Romaine says:
March 14, 2013 at 6:27 pm
Question, is it normal for a client to pay to up grade their lawyers office?
Omara seems to be doing a lot of redecorating with the defense fund
@No its not normal.
But nothing about this tragic event has been normal from the get go.
Its not normal that an armed man can follow an harras a minor.
Call in the non emergancy line to report this normal Child.
As a weid dude something up with him.
Lots of breakins in the neighbour hood up to no good.
An he is a Black male wering a button.
He is here now
Shit he is running .
An seconds minutes later this child was dead with in the sight of his own back door an safety.
None of this is normal
He stole his life his dignity as he sqaushed the last breath out of him with his fay arse .
None of that is normal he also stole his voice an screams an pleas to live.
An then he stole his reputation as he chrisentened him SUSPECT an told us what an out of control killing machine bad mad mo fucker this dude was.
An how he was a hero a decent sqeaky clean MERICAN.
Nope to normality with in sight yet.
Is it normal for an attorney to upgrade his office an install extra phonelines for Internatinal Media an many many many more staff or interns to provide with .
Many many new pc an shredderes staplers ect it all mounts up.
This is where the normality kicks in.
If you have a client like the foggage one whom didnt own a thing .
Had no saveings to his name .
Whom was actually in the hole deep in debt.
It makes perfect sence he has never been able to loook after the meagre amounts he has had in the past.
Now when initialy strangers where flinging money at him as he had finaly been recognised as the important man of respect.
He always knew himslef personaly.
But now others were seeing his greatness.
Makes totall sence such a major celeb as him should have an attorneys filled to the gunnells with stuff.
Material things prove he is a somebody.
Makes sence to piss away 7 plus grand a week an go all 007 when your a celeb.
Makes sence when he can spend this free blood money on whatever he wants.
Because the masses rogognise his need.
Pay off my bills with the masses of money tttttbeing sent by the masses.
So it has begun so it shall never end makes sence right.
Beachfront Propertys new phones pre paid contracts.
Bullet proof vests new high range rentals his an hers.
Its what the masses demand.
I wont need money for defence because I will never be charged .
An if I am then the masses shall rise for the righous man whom made a rightous kill to defend my life.
An all will understand when I explain an then I shall never have to work again.
Make sence yet?
He has prepared a short summary wich will make all clear.
That’s why I think O’Mara and West interpreted the situation as ‘Fuckin’ GOLD!’.
Can we pay in Monopoly money and still get a “get out of jail free” card?
Another notch, thanks.
Not to mention another nail.
racer, yes, yours is better. Each of these videos is a stand-alone reason.
I can’t wait for June !! How many days left ??
But LLMPapa, Papa Zim said that he heard GZ scream like that when he was a teen. “A teen.” “A teen.” Get it — “a teen” screaming — not GZ screaming as a 28 yr old grown-ass man.
Of all the “freudian slips,” this is to me, one of the biggest, and there have been a LOT – like GZ saying me and my wife then taking back the wife part, I put my hand over his mouth I mean he put his hand over my mouth, and all his body language doing one thing while he says something else. But this one was most telling. It is like he has just come right out and said he knows it was not GZ screaming, he KNOWS it was Trayvon.
It isn’t like he said, “I know that’s George’s voice, but I never heard him scream like that. There musta been some shit going on.” He didn’t say, “I know that’s George’s voice, I’ve heard him scream like that before.”
He said he’d heard George scream like that before lots of times WHEN HE WAS A TEENAGER!!!!
There was only 1 teenager there.
I hope when they play that, they put him up there and confront him with that. It was such a blatant admission.
There is also an interview with Serino in which he says “he (TM) was screaming.” Serino jumps in and asks who was screaming and he corrects himself “I was screaming.”
George is mentally defective. Who could have interpreted the 911 operator speech as “get out of the car and do a look see for me”. ???????!!!!!
He alluded that to Police, and his brother said that on
the NPR interview. His thought process is like a silly character on a comedy show.
Not to even mention, who would risk hiding money and a passport on a murder 2 rap bail hearing?
Oh, and how did he get that shot off again? Where was the kids legs. TM was said to be pinning him down without aid of hands at only (they were covering his mouth and nose) 158lbs? So where were his legs? Maybe on his upper torso, yet when he explained to police how he got the shot off, he just reached down and pulled out the gun. Not to mention why no blood on TM hands as the EMT said 70% of face covered with blood.
Then explain to me why he said he looked for an address on the far side of the backstreet? He said TM made a right down the dogleg, why go past the dogleg to get an address? I’ve learned with George not to believe one of his stories. He adds in fiction to every one.
Why dwell on those pesky details and facts…It’s not like he has to prove anything right? Except in court that is.
@ Boyd “George is mentally defective. Who could have interpreted the 911 operator speech as “get out of the car and do a look see for me”. ???????!!!!!”
I have to LOL because you would not believe how many people I have heard say that GZ was doing what he was told to do because the dispatcher said “let me know if he does anything else” like that means to get out and follow or continue to follow. LOL
i’m so glad that fuckin smirk has been smacked off his stupid face/
never to be seen again!
You got that right….I love that picture of him crying in court.
Yeah…..crying…..poor fogen…a victim again……..THAT’S one of the things I dislike the most about him, is his playing the “victims” role…
POS has not one bit of “man up” in him.
Not an once of manhood. The ultimate is telling the world he was the one yelling for help.
The Ultimate Coward…..no bout adoubt it.
O’Mara has released more discovery, publishing photos of Trayvon’s cell phone. I’m not linking their site, but what they provided to News13 instead.
http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/3/14/new_zimmerman_eviden.html
O’Mara released the discovery to the public, but it is actually the State’s discovery to the defense. IIRC, this is what O’Mara argued about in court, and BDLR responded that the defense could have been out East when the cell phone was analyzed, refused, and now wants the State to explain the analysis to them, which the State is not obligated to do.
After watching most of Trents pt. 1 video, I can totally see that Trayvon would’ve ran straight up to RVC where there is light and turn right torwards Brandi’s/back enterance instead of at the T. Fogen ran to the T, not RVC and he is the one that turned right down the dogwalk in hopes of finding Trayvon before he got to the back gate. He continued past the end of the first row of townhouses when Trayvon appeared behind him by cutting between the 1st and 2nd row of houses to get to the back of Brandi’s. When Trayvon saw Fogen he turned and started walking north because Fogen was between him and Brandis house. This is where it all started, right where Trayvon’s phone and Fogen’s flashlight were found ..several feet south of Trayvon’s body and this is why one witness saw them running south to north.
Is it even possible under real conditions (trees without foliage etc), sitting with Honda ridgeline headlights on, to see someone turn down the T, and if not, how could the shooter see his victim turn?
Trent remarked that the grade between the streets is quite steep, so how high and how far would bright headlights reach to easily see someone dogwalk/sidewalk turn at the T? Or is the grade too much different than the parking on the street? Fogen was hell bent on emphasizing the suspiciion of ‘cutting between houses.
He probably saw Trayvon run up the hill and that is when he got out to run after him and then saw that Trayvon turned right down RVC, so that is why he turned at the T and went down the dogwalk. Fogen says that they all cut between houses.
trayvon told deedee that the man “was coming up BEHIND him”
Trent Sawyer (stateoftheinternet) went to R@TL in Sanford, FL and filmed some video that he presents in 2 parts. The below is part 2.
Trent makes an interesting comment about GZ knowing what street he was on when asked for the address he was parked in front of. GZ knew he was on Twin Trees Lane, but he described it to Sean as a “cut-through” as if it was not a street. Good catch, Trent!
I didn’t realize that Fogen passed the street sign that shows Twin Trees every time he would exit/enter his gated community using that front enterance or everytime he would park at the clubhouse. I already knew he was lying because nobody lives in a development for 3 yrs that has only 3 streets and not know the names of those streets, but geez he passes the dang street sign daily!
Also his statement that he would have the cops call him and him tell them where he is, signifies that he knows the area
Do not foget he went house to house in that gated community
with pen and note to talk about starting a NW, so he wrote
the people address in was in or out of that ideal, he also handed
out flyera I think
Good catch!
@ChrisNY. Sean, the dispatcher, used an approach to get GZ back inside his truck. Just like child providers and teachers of children with behavioral problems, 911 operators are also taught to re-direct certain behaviors without leaving room for argument or justifications to refuse.
Knowing that GZ was following the suspicious guy, Sean asked GZ for the address he was parked in front of. Most folks in those circumstances would have said, “Just a moment. I’m almost back to my vehicle now.” Some may have said “I’m not at my vehicle now. Do you want me to go back?” Not GZ. He may have not said that because he knew Sean wanted him to go back to his truck.
So what did GZ say? That he didn’t know the address — it’s a cut-through. as though he was not parked on a street with a name. Then we ask, why didn’t Sean tell GZ to return to his truck? And we answer, because GZ said “He ran.” But Sean, still trying to defuse the situation, asked GZ if he wanted to meet the cops at the mail boxes. Why?
Because GZ led Sean to believe that where he was parked was a “cut-through” and not a street.
Now, in his re-enactment, GZ conveys that he understood exactly what Sean was trying to do, because he thinks for Sean, telling Serino that Sean asked if he still wanted the cops to come out because the guy had ran.
So how does GZ continue his deception? He tells Sean to have the cops call him for his location. It’s the same as saying, “I don’t know where I’ll be when the cops come” and that piggy-backs off “He ran.”
What Sean missed in GZ’s web of deception is that GZ said he didn’t want to give out his complete address because “I don’t know where this kid is.” That reasonably conveys that GZ did not see the kid leave the gated community, was close enough to hear GZ talking, and could still be found.
New Fogen “friend” “Okay, now once I get to your development where do I go?”
FogenPhoole “……um, well….go in the gate and look for a street, I don’t know the name but…..um, you don’t make a left……well you’ll see my truck….”
NFf “Wait, what’s the street name?”
Fogen “…um, I don’t know, but 111 is part of the address and look for the cut through then…”
NFf ” I need a street name or at least where do I turn, not where I don’t turn”
Fogen “..can you have them call me……you have my number?”
NFf “What ?”
Fogen “….are you coming to check me out…”
Both entrances are from Twin Trees Lane, I can’t believe someone didn’t know the road name of the entrances.
It’s wose than that, Towerflower. By saying he had to go to the next street to see a sign, he’s saying he doesn’t know the name of that street either. That’s two out of three, and he lives on one of them.
If the three streets in your neighborhood are Oak, Elm and Birch streets, just because you forget Oak street doesn’t mean you should have to walk over to Elm street to see a sign to know it’s Elm St, especially if you live on Elm St.
The way fogen stated it, made it appear as if needing a sign to know it’s Oak street, is automatically followed by needing a sign to know what the next street is, because you don’t know the one you’re on. In a neighborhood you’re not familiar with, that would be perfectly natural. But, as we all know, that’s not the case here. Just add it to the mountain of lies, that logically don’t make any sense.
And as Jun pointed out, “Have the officer call me when he gets here” means he knows perfectly well where he is at all times.
Trent raises an important issue. He says that he’s observed that it is indeed dark in the area, there is enough ambient light that W6 and W 11 should have been able to clearly see everything in great detail. He insists that anyone who doesn’t believe it, should travel to RATL and see for themselves. He says that the space back behind the houses is small and that Trayvon and GZ would have been literally at John’s feet.
He also does not believe that the phone picked up those screams from upstairs, but that the person holding that phone was downstairs and just inside the porch screen. you can watch parts one and two by clicking here, but be warned Trent Sawyer aka stateoftheinternet uses strong language.
@Lonnie Starr. Jeremy and Jenna’s 911 call that captured the screams reveals much more than their words. Jeremy was coming back inside when Jenna was on the phone with 911. When Jenna says “Stop” it is directed at Jeremy. We don’t know what he was doing when coming inside, but it was something Jenna didn’t want him doing.
The tone of Jeremy’s voice demonstrates panic. Jenna’s hesitation when answering if she knew why the person was yelling for help also speaks volumes.
Then there is John who said he thought that he heard a rock hit his patio door. Compare that to the EMT’s report that says GZ was hit on the head by a thrown object.
@Xena, I agree with you on the fact that Jenna’s response to the 911 dispatch IMO is very, very telling also. she knew who was screaming for help and *WHY* yet she tells the person on the other end of the phone, that she does not know who is screaming and why they are screaming.
She was witness to the entire altercation and she is lying about what she does and doesn’t know. how can a person be so damn cold hearted, as to know the truth behind the murder of a innocent child and yet, she keeps her mouth shut. if I did something such as this, I wouldn’t be able to live with myself. it takes someone with no heart as well as no morals, to do what she is now doing.
Hopefully she won’t be able to have kids because, she does not deserve the title “MOTHER” in any respect of the word.
@ladystclaire
In a word — fear. Self-preservation, fear. GZ killed Trayvon. He admitted it. So here was Jenna who called 911 while Trayvon was still alive. She might have hoped it would stay that way. Then her husband comes into the house all anxious and nervous, and then the gunshot. There was a crazed guy just outside her backdoor with a gun, and he saw Jeremy. What would he do to them?
But the police arrive and GZ admits that he killed the kid. Why then would the police start passing out forms for residents to write down what they saw and/or heard? It should be a slam dunk case of murder. Was this man not being arrested? Is he going to be free and come at people who saw and/or heard what he did?
Fear.
Notice, John changed his story after the public demanded investigation. I suspect that had investigators interviewed again after GZ’s arrest, John, Jon, Jeremy and Jenna, would have told them everything that they said and/or heard.
My guess is that people do these kinds of reprehensible things because they have a lot invested in the outcomes. All I can think is that they are somehow deeply involved. For these people to have made these choices so very early on in the investigation, their connections to these events must run very deep. So deep, in fact, that discovery would be catastrophic for them.
Lonnie- or else they have a fear of “getting involved” especially in a murder trial. There are many horror stories of witnesses being called over and over again, only to have dates be cancelled or postponed. That leads to many lost days of work. The justice system is not very considerate to the witnesses.
Sent from my iPod
Yes, I can see that and agree… But the witnesses I’m talking about, were certainly not hiding from involvement in the case as you mention, but were instead offering false testimony. Doing so ensured that they would be called on to testify, but only if their testimony were not enough to squelch the case. So, perhaps they too had reason to believe that Fogen would never be charged?
Did they think that their false testimony would be enough to prevent a trial by providing the “preponderance” of evidence needed under SYG? If so, that meant that they’d still have to be willing to tell these same false stories in a court of law. After all SYG is not implemented at the police stations front desk. Judicial review is still required either way. Which is why Wolfinger and Lee wanted no charges filed at all, so that judicial review could be avoided at all costs. Worse, why would they have an interest in preventing the law from playing out as it should? That’s a terrible indication. All that’s needed to bring federal criminal charges against Wolfinger and/or Lee is some affiliation with either the defendant or his family or friends, since it’s already established that they sought to pervert the course of justice.
As things stand, they need better cause than that they simply believed GZ’s story, as a reason for having interfered with the investigation. It means nothing at all to say that they had no evidence that GZ had broken the law, because that is exactly what the investigation is designed to discover. You cannot stop the investigation before it starts, then declare it finished, complete and with no incriminating evidence discovered. That is not a defense they’d like to exhibit to a federal jury.
I wonder if it’s possible that one of the witnesses tossed a rock at Fogen and Trayvon in an attempt to break up the fight. Would anyone admit they did something like that afterward? I don’t see much evidence of any rocks being around, though someone might have some decorative gravel around their back porches.
I don’t know why I didn’t think of it before but, since Sanford has had E911, they can GPS track any phone that calls the center. I don’t know if they can keep tracking after the phone is hung up, but that is a possibility because a cell phone is never out of touch with the towers, as long as it has power it’s functions keep operating. But they may be keeping it secret since if it were true, they could probably track any phone they had the number of.
After all, if someone was being abducted and they managed to dial 911 then hide the phone, if the connection broke or the phone was discovered and disconnected by the abductor, but he or she still kept the phone with them, like in the car or house, the police would want to be able to keep tracking until the issues were resolved. Of course, they wouldn’t want to release to the public all their capabilities since that would render them less effective.
My guess is they already have GPS for GZ, FDLE probably grabs that first as a routine, and don’t let the SPD come up empty on the data. That would be very telling. Gotta do another info search on e911 systems.
Just thought i should share;
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/03/how-americans-lost-the-right-to-counsel-50-years-after-gideon/273433/
Papa Z posts his thanks to the Treestump near the bottom of the thread about their discontinuation of the daily Fogen thread – http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2013/03/14/effective-immediately-the-gz-daily-discussion-thread-is-discontinued/#comment-347266
Interestingly, there are other blogs that Sundance did not recommend. Maybe he knows that those blogs or their owners might already be monitored for investigation of cyber-crimes.
It makes you wonder if perhaps CTH had some law snoopers come around because of some of the more virulent posters there, such as David from SoCal who troubled the Prof.
Makes one wonder how fogen is feeling seeing sites that support him being taken down………The future is looking darker for him by the day…..AND….he knows it.
@MMPat. Sundance didn’t take down the site. He is eliminating the GZ case daily discussion threads and recommended that they congregate on one or two other blogs.
And it said they had some block buster that would blow the case wide open…..maybe he meant just “…blow the case…”
Wait, my bad……Duhhhh to me. It was the pictures of Trayvon’s cell phone…….Case Closed !!
Any one who has been a part of the blogger’s experience knows how devastatingly disturbing that empty feeling is, when one loses a familiar website or blog. Just imagine logging on one day and finding this blog gone 404, you’d be devastated. Desperate for your daily jolt of comradery and repartee. Which is why blogs have been getting “networked” with multiple blogs linked together so readers don’t get suddenly left out in the cold.
Well the CTH isn’t gone but it’s been severely crippled and many of the formerly rambunctious players have fled for the hills ahead of possibly being held to account for their anti social expression. GZ and the defense team has got to be severely depressed. I expect Knox, Pipitone and Shultzman to be chilled by these events and begin to dial it back themselves. One can hope!
Lonnie- you are 100% correct about the devastating effect of losing a well loved site. I mourned for weeks when Calvin and Hobbes stopped running. And that wasn’t even interactive!
Sent from my iPod
I miss Gary Larson….He’s the man who made me realize I’m not the only one has those kinds of thoughts….
Here’s a recent observation of mine…..You know the “Feed the Children” commercials?……the guy with the kids in poverty…..He’s sitting in a doorway with a little girl saying she’s going to go to bed tonight, hungry as most nights……
WTF DUDE…..you’re sitting there next to her and you ain’t gonna feed her?
Now back to the Caterpillar
@Two sides
LE has respect for freedom of speech. However, when speech is hate-speech, witness intimidation, doxing (which is illegal) and tag-teaming to promote cyber-harassment, that is a horse of a different color. If it’s true that Sundance had a revelation moment with LE, then it is in his best interest to stop providing the means to others to violate law using his blog.
They’re just regrouping at Rumpole’s and Diwataman’s sites. So I don’t think there’s any real reduction in force.
diwataman is not accepting according to his own blog. curioser and curioser.
No, dimwatman says he’s a one man site and can’t handle that kind of traffic.
i was paraphrasing – i took a look at his blog entry where he was actively discouraging being made a replacement site and posted his precise wording in a post below. mind you, i know nothing about this guy, but he did seem taken aback that his site had been linked as a click through ‘go here, now’ without being asked.
Faux McCoy- I agree. He was less than pleased to have all those racists come knocking at his blog.
Sent from my iPod
Diwata said there was a time when his blog was not open to comments. Funny thing is that I just left there, and he has only 12 comments on his new post, with several being from folks who were banned from the treeslum.
I wish him luck.
Cielo – that’s what Diwataman said, but if you look at his current blog post, he’s got quite a few comments lined up.
“…might already be monitored…” I’ll see your “might already” and raise you a “…have been for many months…”
@racerrodig
I suppose that includes emails between them of schemes of who to attack, who to harass, and how to harass others to see whom is being attacked as a threat to them also. I recently learned that LE considers that activity as direct threats of intended harm.
It’s like hearing them say, “See who we beat up? You’re next.” When they touched those people who they believe are witnesses in a 2nd degree murder trial, that opened up all their other illegal doxing for counts also.
You may have made dinner already, but you’re cooking with gas now doll….
@racerrodig. But Zidiots think they can outsmart the CIA. LOL!!! IP addresses are the internet’s fingerprints.
Also, the one person sending others to do his dirty work using their IP addresses doesn’t realize that those doing his dirty work boastfully include his name in their communications. LOL!!!
Yep….I think they were allowed to say their piece until things got to far.
@Xena, those who thought they were doing all of this in secret, including some members of Fogen’s dysfunctional family if they took part in all of this, they will be facing charges according to Benjamin “Justice 4 Trayvon” Crump’s facebook site.
I’m glad that they are facing charges and, I’ll bet the farm if I had one, that Fogen family members are knee deep in some of this.
@ladystclaire
No doubt West tired of being badgered by the Zimmerman wasp nest about DeeDee, and he might have turned over information to authorities. I mean, if Judge Nelson has to tell him for the forth time that she is not ordering the State to give him DeeDee’s address, West might be looking at sanctions. His career is not worth satisfying the Zimmerman wasp nest.
I am just going to jump in here instead of my normal lurking and reading. I’ve tried to think of why Cracker has discontinued the Fogen daily thread – and I suspect that it is because of his recent outing of O’Mara so close to trial. When Cracker started posting entire articles about how unethical and compromised O’Mara is in the defense of the case, posters were commenting how they were not donating anymore..why bother..etc. I have a suspicion that Daddy Z has gone to Cracker and pled with him to cease the rant against O’Mara because donations have dropped to an all time low and with less than 90 days till trial, they need money. With the ZKlan, and O’Mara, it is all about the money. Cracker isn’t worried solely about winning the Fogen trial, his concern is outing the Crumps, the Sharptons, all the way to the POTUS, and he isn’t about to stop when he thinks he is on the road to “sunshine” (sarcasm)… So, out of respect for Daddy Z, Cracker has ended the daily Fogen thread, sent his roaches to other cracks within the baseboards of the internet and is continuing his “search for the truth.” In the meantime, Netters is busy over at the Dittowawa’s place reasoning with the roaches why O’Mara is not corrupt and pleading for donations before Fogen has to resort to claiming indigency. JMHO folks.
CherokeeNative~ it sounds plausible, but more likely it’s more legal and personal; he’s in trouble with the law over doxing and witness intimidation and received a “cease and desist” order… or else.
The foggages ones acounts of the rein of blows head slams ect inflicted up on his person are more severe than this elderly gentleman describes his attack. Id like to compare an contrast with the photos taken of foggage the same night at S P D police station.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4841563/Shocking-wounds-of-grandad-who-confronted-two-vandals.html
that’s what zimmerpunk would have look like if trayvon beat him like he claims.
I wonder why there is no new thread here. this one has been here for the past three, going on four days. I hope the professor and his wife are both alright.
Mason and Crane seem to leave the blog for a few days regularly when they’re busy. I wouldn’t worry about it.
Question, is it normal for a client to pay to up grade their lawyers office?
Omara seems to be doing a lot of redecorating with the defense fund.
@Romaine, and he is doing it to the tune of 40,000 at that. how did his office function before he hit the mother lode, with money Fogen scammed from a bunch of *IDIOTS* when, he in fact wasn’t charged with a crime, when he set up his beg site. all I can say is that, Fogen got a bunch of fools to pay off all of his outstanding debt.
It is code for “Omara’s pocket”
Our prof remarked about this in another thread. Like driving a luxury car when a sedan would do, or something to that effect.
Re above the fogggage one thinks he superior to Women an certainly felt Trayvon was so inferior to him his takeing his life by blasting through his heart with a hollow piont.
He pulled the trigger as a souless hollow peice of crap.
Pity the bullet wasnt as empty as his sence of compsion an empathy for a fellow mortol.
He also thought him self superior to the masses whom sent money for his defence.
Or in reality for his heroics in ridding the streets of a Black Teen.
The guy that shot up the car with the invisible shotgun pointed at him.
He woulda backed foggage one.Or that old geezer whom executed the boy an girl in his basement.
He would support the foggage one.
He also thinks he is superiour to me an you an his wife he treats with.
Terderness.
Yup tenderised her hide before he slung her to the wolfes.
In his foggage guise as potted palm.
Peter Pan an the lost souls no lost boys in his actions of avverice an contempt for his VICTIM.
Mocking an lauaghing the wit of his useing a hoodie to evade the photographers when his bail is set.
No only a lost boy Trayvon lost forever so his murderer.
Not only stole his life an his voice as his final pleas for mercy.
Then turns around an justifies his criminal actions.
By mirroring all his agresive chaseing stalking circleing my car.
Actions onto his victim placeing his threats into Trayvons mouth putting his over agersive attatude onto Trayvon.
When you got a system like the foggage one of always placeing the blame an his criminal behaviour on another.
If it isnt broke you dont fix it.
Land Lord wants his rent?
Phone the police on him he the bad dude me good dude.
Worker wants paid for non graduation party phone the police on the bad dude dont get what his deal is.
Wants paid for serveing bar at my graduation party.
An I never graduated something weird about him .
For the first time his version of stop hitting youself stop hitting yourself has failed him.
His reverse switch put all my bad deeds on the VICTIM has failed at the time when he needed it the most.
@colin black, yea boy he did have some nerve calling LE when his land lord came to him in order to collect his back rent. the cops in Sanford, FLA are in need of seeing the wizard because, they should have never answered that call.
Fogen owed this person money and, he wasn’t wanting to get up off of the money. the moron called LE for just about everything except for when he and SheLie went to the BR and, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if he didn’t call them for that, and we just haven’t heard about it yet.
The big OBESE bully makes me sick and, I’m so hoping we can get a jury with common sense and, convict his ass.
something interesting is afoot at the nuthouse and it only took me two visits to discover this (first was by accident, months ago and i never went back.
if you click on the link for further discussion of all things Saint Zimmerman, you get to diwataman’s blog whose most recent post starts out
funny haha and funny peculiar
First image is of rats deserting a sinking ship.
heh heh heh … i’m thinking someone might have received a notice to ‘cease and desist’. one can hope.
I guess they got around to reading Prof’s article about witness intimidation.
That’s a thought. Maybe they got a cheap thrill from the justice system, seeing as how they were in the midst of trying to scalp her.
Malisha says:
March 14, 2013 at 4:58 pm
We don’t have a recording of the “What you doing around here?” clip from Fogen. At the time he said that, he was probably freaked because Trayvon had actually asked him a logical and rational question: “Why are you following me?” Fogen expected Trayvon to be a frightened, cowering, knowing-he-was-guilty criminal who, Fogen’s fantasy had it, would immediately cave, beg, blubber, and emit something suitably subservient, servile and submissive, such as, “You got me, I’m guilty, take me in, you got it, you got me,” or the like. The challenge: “Why are you following me” could have put Fogen into a state that sounded to DeeDee like an old voice. Maybe very tense, possibly voice cracking, forced, urgent, creepy.
@Foggage when challenged in his mistaken beleif that he is superiour to Women.
When served a restraing order by his ex abused fiance,
Chalenged by Her he simpply mirrored her allegations laid against him.
He mirrored them back on her because he has no logical coherent defence or answer.
When challenged by Tratvon not only was it challengein g his authority as NW as this suspects better/
It was a complete miss nomer /culture shock to foggage.
Startled he has no answer to …What you keep following me for.
Or why are you hear around my person again now on foot.
An you have been following me by car an now foot for a long time.
All that can be infered by a reasonable person ftom that single sentance.
Why are you following me.
Stunned by this turn of events an with no logical answer.
He mirrors his victims enquiry back at him.
What are you doing around here?
Its instinctive its what he does when challenged.
Poor treepers have no home, LOL. I think I saw a sign about firewood for sale.
Firewood from rotting tree’s doesn’t burn real well either.
That’s why wood from rotting trees is called “Punk Wood” Buddy 🙂
And that’s an Outhouse with a lot of Punk Wood….that’s for sure !
@racer and mmpat — they appear to be mourning wood at the moment … in other words, a buncha …..
draw your own conclusions 😉
They are making it seem as if pictures of Trayvon’s cell phone are breaking the case wide open. Damn Sam…..I smell desperation !!
little sticks … yes, they are a buncha little sticks 😉
Looks like Judge Nelson has no choice no but to dismiss the case. Lets face it, none of us thought they ever crack the case, and the evidence was just so obvious and overwhelming….who ever thought it would take them this long???
were the three little pigs hiding in the tree house made of little sticks when the big bad wolf huffed and puffed and blew it all down?
I guess we’ll get blamed for that now…….and I’m damn glad of it.
@racerrodig Lets face it, none of us thought they ever crack the case, and the evidence was just so obvious and overwhelming….who ever thought it would take them this long???
(Hehehehe) O’Mara had to wait until GZ gained over a 100 lbs. Now, he can have GZ stand up in court, wave photos of GZ taken at the police station on 2/26/12 and say, Your Honor. As you can see, the man that was arrested looks nothing like my client. This case must be dismissed.
So this one goes down as “The Case of Mistaken Obesity”
That’s as lame as “The Octopus Defense” or “The Big Boi Defense” but certainly one they would try.
“Mistaken Obesity”……LMAO 🙂
The man couldn’t hide behind a Sequoia…….
All is good tho….he’ll make new friends in the pen, and they’ll invite him to work out on the iron pile with him…….Just hope someone doesn’t forget to spot for him doing bench presses 😐
Oh I’m sure his favorite is squat thrusts……I heard he can bench 6 bags of groceries now.
Race…..sorry…..somehow the impression I got of “squat thrusts”…..was fogen taking a dump………
You must be psychic.
@ Xena:
“Your Honor, the Court must dismiss this case because defendant is too big too fail!”
“Your Honor…..if my client falls it will result in Florida’s first historically recorded earthquake…….If he happens to fall in the ocean the result will be a tsunami”
@MMPat.
GZ might float, in which case we might see him on an episode of Animal Planet’s Whale Wars.
I’ll vote in favor of the Japs on that one….
Although I DO NOT want fogen sushi…. 😦
Fail or fall ? Remember “Weebles Wobble but they don’t fall down”
Dried cow chips burn kinda good………gives a shitty flavor to anything you cook over it though……
MMP- but it makes a glorious color for ceramics.
Sent from my iPod
@Xena and Racer, you two need to take a turn in the naughty chair. LMAO, weebles wobble but they don’t fall down, maybe that is why he hasn’t taken a tumble down the aisle when he enters the courtroom. wale wars, ain’t that the truth Xena. if he gets any bigger, he just might find himself in one of those Florida sink holes. do you guys think that his attorney’s are keeping him out of the public’s view until he loses some of his girth before his trial begins?
The naughty chair…..then we’d lose our continuity.
@racer, LMAO! you are definitely too much but, I love ya anyways. as the old saying goes, no fool no fun.
We don’t have a recording of the “What you doing around here?” clip from Fogen. At the time he said that, he was probably freaked because Trayvon had actually asked him a logical and rational question: “Why are you following me?” Fogen expected Trayvon to be a frightened, cowering, knowing-he-was-guilty criminal who, Fogen’s fantasy had it, would immediately cave, beg, blubber, and emit something suitably subservient, servile and submissive, such as, “You got me, I’m guilty, take me in, you got it, you got me,” or the like. The challenge: “Why are you following me” could have put Fogen into a state that sounded to DeeDee like an old voice. Maybe very tense, possibly voice cracking, forced, urgent, creepy.
Malisha Had been curious (and admittedly amused) way back when about DeeDee’s perception of Fogen’s voice as that of an “old man.” Am now having second thoughts — and not about DeeDee’s perceptions, but on whether there was indeed an old man on the scene. So, um, yeah, WTF!
TO, I do think Fogen’s voice sounds “old” in that it sounds kind of weak and trembly. If you do not see Fogen, and you hear his voice, it is possible to think of him as an angry old man. Try it. Try to forget what he looks like and listen to his taped interviews. I can see how DeeDee would think his voice “old.”
Deedee could have meant “older” and not “old”
to a 17 yo everybody with a fully ripened voice is old
Exactly, when I was 17 anyone 25 or older was old, and the expression was don’t trust anyone over 30.
No duh huh Race?
Now I watch science programs and the professors & experts look like teenagers to me…….Such are the ways of becoming an old fart.. 😦
BTW….my oldest turns 40 this year….What a long strange trip it’s been. 🙂
are we supposed to stop trusting ourselves at this point? (just seeking advice from my elders) 😉
I believe I started trusting myself more once I grew out of the
“Hey Ya’ll ….watch this shit”….phase of my life 🙂
@ pat – for me, that moment arrived when i realized that the police were knocking on my door because i called them as opposed to previous reasons 😉
(usually it was due to the bose 901s and the rolling stones, but still)
I’ll probably be dead when my son turns 40., Well….I’ll be 82 anyway.
I concur. Teenagers think 30 is old.
I agree, Malisha.
Not to mention, Fogen most likely tried to sound intimidating when he asked Trayvon what he was doing around there. Any person doing that or sounding authorative will come across as “older” in a teenagers eyes.
JMO
Fogenhitler has a creepy old man whispery voice
Listen to his jailhouse calls
Witness-11 heard someone say, “What are you doing…?” and Witness-8 (DeeDee) heard the “old man” say “What are you doin’ around here?” and Frank Taaffe, back when he was getting a little camera time of his own in this case, insisted that Trayvon would have been alive today if only he had ANSWERED Fogen’s question! How did Taaffe know that Fogen had asked a question? According to Fogen’s statements (both written and recorded) to the police, only Trayvon asked a question: “What’s your [fucking] problem [homie]?” and only Fogen answered a question: “[Hey man] I don’t have a problem.”
So, um, WTF?
What are you doing around here?
911:What’s your emergency….a black man walking through my hood purposely.
Jasiri X
That’s the main problem with the defense is that W8 is supported by forensics and on scene witnesses as to what happened
W11 & w18 support her confrontation claims and w2 adds to her claims of chase and she was only there by ear via phone of Trayvon’s
If you scrutinize Fogen’s testimony and claims, WTF will become your mantra.
Neither Fogen nor Francis nor Osterman can keep their stories straight, that’s what.
When my dad was still a cop he told me that if 10 people witness an accident we will get at least 12 versions……because at least 1 will change his story twice.
So your observation is classic. Liars and those pesky lies.
Interesting, Racer. As a corollary, prosecutors should presumably be adept at addressing such a reality in court – did your dad ever talk about that?
Yes, but the lawyers I do work for even more so. The key is get the critical witnesses in for a deposition ASAP. When they see a story changing, they take a dep from the most credible witness and go item by item. Them take another dep from the on who is changing the story and see if that one differs.
It’s not really hard to do. My part in the civil cases if facts. Very often a defendant or witness like to try to sell the court on a version of “..I was being pummeled so I drew my firearm and fired one shot”
Trained Observer says:
March 14, 2013 at 1:42 pm
I didn’t know about remains of heart sticker on his phone. What irony … that he’d be on that phone with his girl when a stalker would approach to shoot him in the heart
@
Thats one of the first things that leapt out to me.
After trunkmoms perverse walk away free for killing a baby trial.
I Swore that was it never again would I allow meself to become emotionly involved with a crime half way across the world.
And Florida was number one on my list.
Funny enough both trunkmom an hairiass commited there crimes with in a week of each other in 2008 an yet Casey an her missing Todler lies.
Trumphed J Hairiass Lies of Nija Assins an oh I wasnt even there that day.
Photos you say I would like to see those photos Jodi asks the detective Florez……..No you wouldnt jodi trust me.
Anyway I was interested in both cases an swampmom walking floored me.
Not because I wanted trunkmom to die Im agin the death penalty for moral reasons.
But I wanted somone to stand up for CAYLEE,
Her family an egg doner never stood up bye or for the VICTIM
They made the murdereng phyilly out to be the victim along with themselfs as victims.
An all the while laughing all the way to bank there blood money an go on cruises.
Have the VICTIM turned into BLING.
Talk about TRASHY people.
An remember there were those heart stickers from swamp hags scrap book .
Remember scraps little pic girls saved up.
An the alleged outline of a heart sticker on the ductape.
Wrapped around CAYLEES wee mouth .
Thee times around her head the uniqe brand almost.
From there garage .
So when I heard about this case an Trayvon being blasted through the heart with a hollow point projectile.
It sychrinisised every thing for me the momment the heart sticker on the phone was mentioned.
Everything I thought yet another blatant murder in Florida .A obviously lieing perp like kc an claiming innocence an telling unbeleiveable things events that couldnt have happened.
Just like trunkmom an theres heart sticker evidence involved as well.?
Its almost as if Floridians as citizens an potential jurours are being given a chance to redeem themselfs.
Make the right desisions in the veiw of the entire world.
Show us you do have hearts.
There once was a fellow named Fogen,
whose NW activities were “rogue-in'”
He set out all prepared
to find someone who scared
him so he could prove he was the “SHOGUN”! 😈
Ha! 🙂
Zimmermans defence is in a spin.
As there client is rather dimm.
Instead off zipping up an keeping his thoughts private to him.
No ridiculass versions he was unable to stop his mouth to spin.
Each one he told another lie to justify his mortal sin.
At first he though he would walk no one cared no crys no dinn.
But then the truth began to settle in.
People vented there despair an fury an demanded he face a jury .
An there would be no free pass to kill given to thugs that murder like him
An when the foggage is lead away for his future lies in prison permanently
No one will even remember him only the sin with the world he did deface.
An embaressment to the human race a waste of space.
Unlike his victim whom dreamed one day to fly.
All this foggage did was lie an lie.
Trayvons name an love shall never die no matter how the biggots try.
An although his Parents an Loved ones faced immence pain.
They shall never walk alone again.
Trayvon there in that last picture that tear has taken all his fear.
An he will be for his loved ones ever near .
An as to the one that shot him now its your turn to fear.
An your fear will never be cleared by one single tear.
.
OMG – those are FEBRUARY, not March! 😳
Been there, done that! I’m glad February is over, now maybe signs of spring.
“The judge handling the case of slain Florida teen Trayvon Martin says it would take extreme circumstances for her to grant a continuance for the self-defense immunity hearing of a former neighborhood watch volunteer charged in Martin’s shooting.
“Judge Debra Nelson said Thursday that she would, however, consider rolling George Zimmerman’s immunity hearing under Florida’s “stand your ground” law into the scheduled June trial.
“Defense attorney Mark O’Mara will formally get to argue for that during another hearing next week.
“For now, Nelson has reserved the final two weeks of April for the immunity hearing.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/george-zimmerman-hearing-trayvon-martin-case_n_2685521.html
“Zimmerman hearing set for today [3/14]
“A hearing Thursday will determine if George Zimmerman’s “Stand Your Ground” hearing will actually happen on April 22″
http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/02/13/george-zimmerman-stand-your-ground-hearing
The current docket last entry. Aprill 22 is gone from view now.
I apologize if anyone posted this already and I missed it, but we got a mini-doc-dump today:
http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/3/14/new_zimmerman_eviden.html
As far as I can see there are no real new insights.
I didn’t know about remains of heart sticker on his phone. What irony … that he’d be on that phone with his girl when a stalker would approach to shoot him in the heart.
TO- was there any purpose to this mini- dump if no new evidence is being shared?
Sent from my iPod
Fauxmcoy here is side by side translation of to a mouse in Scots an English to clear any confusion with some words you mentioned
re jummper wich is a scots word for a pullover jersey type garment woolen/
Some strange looks when a tourist driver in Scotland has battery trouble an asks if he can borrow a jumper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_a_Mouse#The_Poem
colin – thank you 🙂 whether it be DNA or actively listening to the stories of my forefathers, i am generally able to read old scots and middle english with relative ease.
the only thing that has ever thrown me was ‘jumper’. i could not see why my grandmother would wish to dress my father, quite the handsome cowboy in his younger days, as Dorothy 🙂
off the top of my head, but will surely come up with better ~
there once was a defendant named george
upon junk food he preferred to gorge
a gps applied to his ankle
before our eyes became a cankle
has not reduced his ability to forrage
An eye-witness said to the cop
“The big man was sitting on top!”
“Do you believe what you see,
or do you believe ME?”
asked Serino, “so just let it drop.”
When Fogen denied his “fuckin coons”
Some thought maybe “fuckin’ goons”
Yet as his own words come into play
Shedding light on lies of his fatal fray
Fogen proves he’s the “fuckin’ loon”
MMA……Mixed Marijuana Assault…. 🙂
“MMA……Mixed Marijuana Assault…. :)”
Chuckleworthy
unitron
(who coined that word just for your post)
Well now……..Some Durban Poison…mixed with some Blueberry Kush…..with a little Red Hair Ses on the side?
I’m attacking the refrigerator 🙂
A lie? Why, what could it cost a man?
“I was attacked by a big scary Rasta-man!”
The big witless snoop
thought he’d still fly the coop
All while protected by Osterman.
I know the defendant never claimed to be afraid of Bob Marley, but I couldn’t think of anything else to rhyme.
Yeah….the Rasta Man attacked him with Ganja…….
And he wasn’t driving no Harley.
Naw…….that would be too GNARLEY
You talkin to me me Charlie? Go eat your barley and stop being snarley.
Gives ‘Stir’ it up, a new twist 😉
Feeling the need to leaven the over-riding tragic and disturbing nature of this case with some ironic shits and giggles, I’ve started a Zimmerman case limerick thread on the whonoze blog. Other forms of verse are welcome, (and parody lyrics to familiar songs as well, of course).
My opening contribution:
Two lawyers O’Mara and West
Had a client who wasn’t the best
They tried and they tried
But their guy always lied
In private, “We’re fucked” they confessed.
Whonoze- LOL! Limericks are my favorite.
Sent from my iPod
Good one!!! I gotta get going now, but I’ll be thinking of one. I sure love reading them though.
Two lawyers named West and MOM
Took on a killer, a dumb lying Tom
Machinations leading to trial
Left’em with a smirk and a smile,
Lamenting BDLR, he’s da bomb
A killer both both feckless and seedy,
with close-set eyes lightless and beady,
told a whale of a tale
of a threatening black male
which unraveled thanks to witness 8 (DeeDee).
Wonderful!!
love it!
Cercando Luce- BRAVO! Well done!
Sent from my iPod
Love it!
cercado luce says
oh! i do think that is the best yet!
Thanks to cops led by ex-Police Chief Lee
A stalking murderer thought he’d remain free
Then came a victim’s defender named Crump
Delivering blows for the evidence dump
Now murder-2 guilt is plain for all to see
Sanford cops talked to assorted wits
yet on their collective asses they did sit
Then along came outrage black and white
With public opinion exerting its might
Exacting a murder charge that so supremely fits
whonoze – that is delightful! i love limericks and will see what i can contribute 🙂
There once was a boy named Trayvon
To college he thought he’d go on.
‘Til George with a gun
Thought to shoot would be fun
And now our dear Trayvon is gone.
Short and poignant. Right on the mark.
Sent from my iPod
ZIMMERMAN’S LAMENT
(Written to the music of, ”Oh, dear, what can the matter be“, also known as “Johnny’s so long at the fair”)
Oh, dear, what can the matter be
I shot Trayvon and the whole thing blew up at me
I should be the hero, I’m sure I deserve to be
‘Cos I know it was part of “God’s plan”
One night while patrolling, protecting the colony
I saw a young hoodie, where I thought he shudna’ be
To me he looked suspect, despite walking leisurely
I knew it was all in “God’s plan”
I called the police to inform of the suspect
But I knew it was useless ‘cos hoodies run fastest
So I tracked and pursued him right down to my lastest
What else could I do, t‛was “God’s plan”
Now Angela Corey’s gone charged me with murder
And some even say she should’ve gone further
I feel so contraried, I can’t stop eating burger
Not sure this was part of “God’s plan”
At least Shelly supports me, and so does O’Money
And Osterman used to, but he’s now acting funny
He’s written a book telling more lies than any
Please, what should I do with “God’s plan”?
My Treehouse supporters donate me their dollars
But it just goes to show they’re not studious scholars
They could drop me tomorrow if they realize who hollas
Help, what can I do with “God’s plan”?
If I ever get through this, it won’t be my doing
I’ve lied and contorted, which should be my ruin
Seeking justice for Trayvon is not of my wooing
T’was no fault of mine but “God’s Plan”
Should I go to prison I’ll start a new hobby
Mentoring lawyers and burglars and unfaithful hubbies
I’ll teach them to lie but not to be sloppy
Or things will go wrong with “God’s plan”
Brilliant.
Thank you kind sir. I posted it over your way too.
nice
Lawyers Sonner and Uhrig did tell
the cameras ‘our client’s not well’
Lost contact by Sunday
Stayed advisors for Monday
By Tuesday told client ‘go to hell’.
More like he told them to go to hell. they were obviously p o’d that he humiliated them and blew their chances to bask in the limelight. I’ll bet JO and FT are both livid that RZJ is getting all of the camera time, and we haven’t seen or heard from either of them in a while.
I wonder if RZJ and GZ even comunicate with each other. Does anyone know? I seriously doubt they do. I truely believe RZJ is an opportunist and a sociopath. A very short and stumpy sociopath….. who wears too much make up.
I think Fogen was all set to run away before being charged and the lawyers did not want to be blamed for it or have anybody execute search warrants for their offices. Fogen thought he was going to have a little tete-a-tete with a friendly LEO and then scoot and leave behind a world of supporters screaming about him being chased out of the known world by thugs and would-be MMA-style burglar-murderers, when he ooopsed himself into custody without even having a public statement read to the panting-and-standing-by Rene Stutzman so she could “scoop” it. He had the gun in the car, snacks for the ride, and probably the next leg of his trip planned out with the extra passport and the disguise — some fool may still be waiting behind one of the dumpsters of a donut shop on the highway.
Malisha– that’s something I’ve wondered about. He goes to visit Corey with a borrowed gun in the car, not to mention a back up knife. What was the plan?
Sent from my iPod
cielo says
i think this is evidence of his addled thinking and not much more. when corey stated that the defendant ‘turned himself in’ she was being kind; that was certainly not his intention as he did not know that there was a capeas issued for his arrest. my best guess is that since his phone calls had been rejected that he put on his ‘thinking cap’ and proceeded to deal with rejection in his usual manner, by chasing it down.
Version 2 as per looolooo
OMG, the outhouse today wrote a story called “The Sociology of Victimhood – “Zimmerman Case”
And what pisses me off royally is (and I don’t normally mention names, but I have to here) is a comment by Lou. His name used to be Loudajew and it got me so angry one day because he says things NOT Jewish person I’ve ever known (being Jewish myself) has ever said. My Jewish household and community never saw the likes of someone like him.
Get this:
“Lou says:
March 14, 2013 at 7:32 am
“they have to understand that the media is their enemy, and they should not feel comfortable with them. they must demonize Trayvon at every turn, because in reality Trayvon was a demon. any Jewish lawyer would have already brought up Trayvon’s school records for the world to judge…”
Disgusting!!!! Absolutely DISGUSTING.
Whenever I read his posts, it makes me almost feel ashamed to be Jewish – then I realize it is HE who should be ashamed as a Jew to say the things he does.
Sick sick last refuse at the outhouse.
He’s obviously not Jewish because if he was, he would understand the law, because Jews are good lawyers (as Adam Sandler always jokes) LOL
His lawyer did try to demonize him and guess what? There was nothing there that showed that Trayvon was violent in any way. All they have is maybe Trayvon smoked weed and that he had jewelry that the cops even stated he never stole. So it goes to prove all their demonization is all lies because there’s nothing substantial there. Now Fogen, hmmmmm
They’re all sociopaths over there and they however do understand victimhood because they victimize people for their ill gotten agenda
But like all Tinfoil Hat reps, he or she Lou is a coward who hides behind a computer screen and would never publicly voice his opinion like all other creeps
Well, they are going to cut off the daily GZ thread topic – “not really” because they have been getting any heat, but because there are so many other things – they do not want to be a GZ only site you know. Ugghhh. However, Sundance is awaiting some FIOA information of his own – “and we are awaiting current documented information that will nuke the narrative of lies and manipulations. Perhaps disintegrating the case completely.
While the GZ case will not take center stage – this is absolutely essential for a few reasons – not the least of which is time to focus on publicly exposing aspects the defense is too chickensh!t to tackle. Pffft….
He also wrote an article on how much he hates O’Mara.
So there will still be GZ stuff and Tryavon/family hatred there, just not concentrated in one area – but like he (Sundance) says, you can get your daily hatred from rumpole2 and diwataman’s blogs. Ughhhh.
I don’t know if I should go back to bed, puke or both. It all makes me sick.
Oh I love those descriptions! It will nuke the case, huh? Just like the ping logs and the open letter to West. Idiots.
Sent from my iPod
@Rachael, I e\will be so damn glad when this case has been tried and The guilty party is convicted and sentenced, so these *IGNORANT B******S* can slither back to their respective trailer parks. I still want somebody to tell me, how is this the best country in the world, especially since we have got people like those at the dog house living among us.
These people can’t get any lower than what they are now. Trayvon never did a thing to them nor to the one who took his life. I wonder if any of these comments are being sent to the state and, if they are not being sent, they should be.
well it really must suck to be them! LOL
they can’t trust anyone, they don’t like anyone. and no one is listening to them or their inarticulate advice for gz’s defense. and no one cares about their complaints against omar and his strategies.
they get no respect!! so they aren’t gonna play with omar and west anymore! the tree sloths are gonna have to take care of getting gz off all by themselves. NO MORE ASSITANCE from the idiots!! hahaha as IF!
fogen realizes his support base is falling…..No doubt he’s been watching jodies trial…….He will still be free on bond during the trial……..when he realizes his fate is sealed….before conviction……I still predict he’ll either run (waddle)….or suck some lead himself when he see’s he’s toast.
Just more of fogens failures…..
MMP- just don’t see GZ eating lead. Well, maybe EATING it, but not actually suicide.
Sent from my iPod
MMPat — I agree that he’ll likely try something to weasel out of his mess. That’s his life-long habit — with plenty of help from Pops.
@MMP, I too believe Fogen will more than likely make a (waddle) for it and, I say this because his parents have stated that they had been looking for safe places for them to live but, I believe they were looking for some where to help their son flee to.
These lying people are not and have not ever been receiving threats of any kind and. they should be a shamed of themselves for telling those lies. some of them have lost jobs because of threats and, that is another lie. how in the hell would others know where these lying ass people work in order to make threats to them on the job? one thing about it though, this family will never be accused of having any *COMMON SENSE, OR MORALS* and that is a fact.
That kind of crap is all they have…..notice they stay as far away from the case facts as humanly possible.
@ My sister Rachael: Oh there are Jews of all sorts, don’t worry about it. There are Afro-Peruvians of all sorts too; that doesn’t mean all Afro-Peruvians are lying shameless murderers! Lou can be a total asinine fool with the moral gravity of the left knee of a flea and it won’t reflect on you or me. Baruch Hashem!
Was this written by an actual sociologist? Because I, an actual sociologist, would have no trouble (and would delight in) shredding anything these dimwits proclaim as the “sociology of” anything. I have already stated here that my evidence-based conclusions are that this is ALL. ABOUT. RACE. If anything, the underlying motivations and drives of the Zidiot Nation are hackneyed rehearsdals of the self-pitying notion of conservative white victimhood. (I haven’t read it yet, though.)
puck – as you may recall, our areas of study are somewhat similar with some overlap. you are our resident sociologist and i am the lowly anthropologist. the article referenced is sick, without doubt. i took a look out of morbid curiosity (you know, studying my fellow man). it is when i got to the comments section that i ran in horror of that which my fellow man is capable of ‘thinking’ much less stating in a public format. just a word of caution – should you venture in that direction, bring your hip waders and some mental floss for a much needed thorough cleansing afterwards.
Faux McCoy- and to think that people even used to act on such sick beliefs just boggles the mind. I can’t wait for the day when such thoughts are just examples of mental illness.
Sent from my iPod
http://www.gunblast.com/Kel-Tec9mm.htm
look at pic # 16 on this link you can view the back of a kel tec pf9 too, also check out the video the kick back from the gun is vicious
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=kel+tec+pf9+pictures&id=566E90A4418048AE510408974D861F0E798618A8&FORM=IQFRBA#
i watched LLMPAPA’s “georges’ courage” video and noticed the shape in the back of the gun so I looked for more pics and in the link above i found the very first pic…look at that pic and tell me if you think it fits the shape of the bruise on the back of georges’ head
@Romaine
There was a picture of ‘the gun’ overlaid on GZ’s injuries to the back of his head, and it fit remarkably well. Unfortunately, I thought I had saved it, but now I can’t find it. I will post it if I do.
Does anyone know the picture I am referring to?
I have that pic Kimmi, for me that picture does not satisfy the location of the gash at the bottom of that injury.
in the links if I posted if anyone else bothered to look?
I’m looking at the back of the gun not the trigger area.
If anyone would do me the kind favor of looking at the pic.
check the long piece that extends while the gun is cocked it has a horse shoe shape with sharp edges that would leave a gash that i believe lines up with the injury to the defendants head.
the first pic is of the gun in its regular position.
the second pic is when the gun is loaded and ready for shooting
I found it the picture of ‘the gun’ and GZ’s head injures.
Please see link.
http://dothprotesttoomuch.com/2012/12/06/what-do-you-think/
@Romaine
Sorry, I didn’t see your reply before I posted the link.
Thank you Kimmi
A poster on the Z team (DW or grumpole) has made a montage of GZ´s fitting Trayvon’s iced tea can with GZ’s left nose injuries. It’s not even a bad fit, (I am absolutely not saying it what happened though), but it made me laugh because IF it is totally illogical to believe Trayvon for no reason whatsoever sucker punched GZ on the nose, and please note I say IF which IMO is unlikely, then IMO their apparent argument that Trayvon hit GZ with a can he bought to drink watching the match would show even more powerfully that it was Trayvon hitting out in self defence… hoisted by their own petard!
Put that thought out of your head, as the can would have shown damage and DNA. In all likelihood the can would have exploded on impact as the aluminum is real thin. My friends son did that demonstration and 8 of the 10 times it can broke open.
How do those Outhousers explain the fact that their guy did not say he was hit in the nose with a can? Was it God’s plan that he mistook a fist for a soft drink? Or did he just get so flustered by having put his cell phone in the wrong pocket (after forgetting the street and not seeing the house numbers and not “knowing where the kid is” and not being able to say “truck” or “rhymes with fuck” and not remembering he had “the” gun…) that he lost touch with reality and thought:
A can of liquid is a fist;
A fish is a brand name car seat for an infant;
A metal box containing bags of dog poop is a peccary;
A kid walking home from 7-11 is a threat to freedom everywhere;
and * all * like * that. 😈
@MALISHA
What stupidity. Either read my post PROPERLY or go put your questions to the Outhousers as you refer to them. My comment did NOT go in any way against the Leatherman Blog’s groupthink so your aggressive reply is both unwarranted, undeserved and most certainly unexpected from someone as intelligent as you appear to be… from those not so intelligent it is expected and therefore more understandable and forgivable
@gbrbsb: Huh?
First of all, if you think I responded aggressively to YOU, I don’t understand how you got there but if it was my inexpert expression that caused that misunderstanding I am sorry. Second of all, if it was your misunderstanding of what I wrote with at least basic comprehensibility that was to blame, please back off a minute and listen to me, OK?
1. OK you could “forgive” me if I was stupid but you think I am not. Thanks for that.
2. You would be forgiving me, presumably, for answering YOU aggressively, when I thought it was pretty obvious that I was not doing that. What I THOUGHT I was doing was agreeing with you and reinforcing what YOU SAID. Thus:
You said:
So I think I read you correctly.
I think I read you to say that the “Z Team” came up with the idea that Trayvon hit Fogen with the can of iced tea in spite of the fact that it was “illogical” and that hitting Fogen with the can of iced tea, just like hitting him with a fist, would have been self-defense on Trayvon’s part in any case.
I believe I am correct in my interpretation of what you wrote.
So what did I write that got you so angry with me?
I came in right behind you saying, “Yeah, what HE said,” and adding a few more reasons of my own.
I SAID:
So, gbsbrb, I was trying to agree with you and further “stick it to the Outhousers” to ask how they could arrive at that idiotic explanation. I wasn’t doing it to promote “groupthink” or to be aggressive towards you.
In closing, I don’t know how you got me wrong but I was trying to agree with you. I certainly wasn’t trying to be aggressive towards you and I respect your comments and your intelligence. If I read you wrong, I read you wrong. I have upon occasion made mistakes — I actually remember that I made a mistake in 1976. Sorry! 😳
Malisha, I am so-o-oh-o sorry, mea culpa, and perdoneme. I do not know how to do the red smiley but take this as one big one of them on my behalf.
To my chagrin once I read your quite rightly angry 2nd reply, reread your 1st reply and reread my own comment, I realised I had misunderstood you entirely, wrongly concluding you were firing questions at me expecting me to answer what the treehouse bloggers were thinking as if I were one of them! After accusing you of not reading my comment “properly” it is embarrassingly clear it was I who did not read yours with due care, unfairly jumping to an erroneous conclusion. I cannot therefore apologize enough, more especially because for so long I have appreciated your well thought, honest and creative comments and even though not every time can I agree with some of the “findings of fact” decided here I have always realised that it was my opinion and I hope tried to respect what I saw as good thought processes whatever they led to. Of late with all the accusations of “troll” against some I respect enormously for their thought processes even though not always in agreement I have found it difficult to express anything branching out from the mainstream which is perhaps what caused me to be somewhat trigger happy with my anger today (Racer didn’t seem to understand what I was getting at and I thought you were also making the same wrong conclusion). I do know that in the heart of hearts of all bloggers here is the hope that between us we can work out something that could just maybe help the prosecution because although most here are secure in the thought GZ will not walk free I am not fortunate with that surety which both pains and rankles me.
@gbrbsb – My mom, Malisha, is currently unable to get online. So, by proxy, her response, paraphrased – We’re cool! Glad it was just a misunderstanding.
@gbrbsb: Oh thanks, I’m glad we both got it now, thanks.
Here’s the smiley: 😀
Thank you Malisha. Read twice, comment once… my new motto!
(I do know the normal smiley just not a big blushing red one to denote embarrassment 🙂
No thanks to you. You had me worried you hadn’t seen my apology. :oops (I found the red smilie… if it works!)
Oops… silly me, forgot I already replied and the red/pink smiley didn’t work either!
About an immunity hearing AFTER trial (necessarily that would mean after acquittal): Think of this.
Jury believes reasonable doubt is 10% doubt.
They believe the prosecutor only came up to 80% so they acquit.
Then there’s an immunity hearing.
With that 20% doubt, the defendant cannot make a 51% case for HIS story to be the truth.
See how it would be a Constitutional horror story?
The fact that there is “immunity from prosecution and from civil suit” altogether is unconstitutional in my opinion because prosecution is based on enough evidence for a “prima facie” case and a civil suit is not the government’s prerogative but a private plaintiff’s prerogative and a private plaintiff takes on the risks and rigors of litigation. But if you were to start allowing immunity AFTER trial in cases of acquittal you’d pretty soon unravel the whole court system. Think about it. I sure hope Florida doesn’t lead the way to a wholesale abomination that makes it unprosecutable for any large corporation to do whatever it chooses to any lawyer-less potential civil plaintiff or complaining witness. We’re headed for real feudalism if that happens. And the ONLY defense available will be weaponry and survivalism. This would be a place to flee in preference to Syria within a single appeal cycle.
Immunity hearings post trial, wouldn’t this open a pandora’s box, with a line up of convicts of manslaughter, murder, etc, all ready to jump on the bandwagon?
But to be fair to fogen, he did try for an immunity hearing but the judge hardly had time for hearings and when she did, they only could spend part of the day with her, and so they couldn’t possibly get ready for trial in time, the system, the judge are forcing him to compromise his preparation, that’s why they had to toss the much needed SYG hearing slated for April.
*sniffle sob*
Oh, and, yeah — they were “running out of time” — just as was Fogen when he had to shoot Trayvon Martin. Only they can’t just go off and shoot Judge Nelson, so like, um, oops.
LOL
It’s called a “Pre – Trial Motion” for a good reason. As much talk going on about this, it can’t be held after the trial.
You can’t be found guilty then say “oh wait…..maybe I could have been held Immune” The state of FL is not going to rewrite court procedures for Fogen, no matter what Moron O’ Mara says.
I would love to see fogen’s phone records, he has said that he knew he was out of time. I wonder if his phone was ringing because the cop was entering the area and calling him like he wanted.
That would also explain his fear of being seen with the gun and getting shot.
The fact that they need to be repeatedly be told to just depose and tall to witness 8 really says something about their qualms with her
I have no idea why they are so afraid to speak to her
talk*
They are just hoping that they can find a couple of other DeeDee’s before they depose this one. LMAO
I’m sure that they know that if they feel she lied about something and find proof of it, they can bring it up during trial when they have her on the stand. So, I assume that they are hoping to find something to somehow get her statements thrown out.
Unfortunately all they have is ambiguous allegations based on ambiguity LMAO
I wish they would just depose her and find out what is up
All they have is other people saying she’s 16 or 18 (not w8 saying this btw) and that w8 had to go to the hospital or someplace during sometime because all they have is her saying she did not feel well enough to go to the wake and she ended up at the hospital or somewhere, with no exact date LOL
It will be up to a jury and judge but her testimony is supported by other witnesses and on scene evidence so I do not feel anything will happen to her, and she will have a lawyer and the state protecting her
They are looking for dirt and hope they can get her to lie about it during her deposition.
If they can’t impeach Dee Dee, it is a lot harder to keep GZ of the stand. Without Dee Dee, the missing minutes are just blank.
Dee Dee’s statements that Trayvon thought he’d lost him, that GZ was following him again and GZ’s words “what are you doing around here?” are devestating to any self-defense claim, especially if he doesn’t offer his own version.
The missing 2 minutes is not really blank IMO
Fogen’s own statements contradict each other and show he was trying to hide the fact he went after Trayvon after getting off the phone
How else did he end up that far from his car, that far from where he started (by the clubhouse to the south of the T point), and seen by witnesses confronting Trayvon and then causing a struggle from which it was described a kid was screaming for help?
Fogen admitted himself he went after Trayvon but then tried to deny it later on because he did not want to get in trouble
OT: but just came across this the other day and had to share. Now normally I tend to skip fluff piece articles and blogs that are clearly from a member of the Z nation, but this was rather interesting in that clearly this person hasn’t studied the evidence in depth and how much like the random Z nation members in various comment sections he is.
Why Florida Persists in the Zimmerman Prosecution
For the highlights
-The state was pushed by Obama and the media
-If Fogen is convicted it will be a “grave injustice” & if he’s acquitted it will lead to “mayhem” in the streets
-“The state’s case took a hit last week when Witness #8, Martin’s alleged 16-year-old sweetheart “Dee Dee,” was caught in falsehoods so flagrant that even the Trayvon-friendly Orlando Sentinel noticed them.” Trayvon friendly my dead aunt fanny
-DD isn’t a minor and she wasn’t hospitalized
-As usual treats what GZ says as if it were gospel straight from on high
-Repeated #6’s FIRST statement, but does not acknowledge that he has since changed what he originally said
It goes on the same repetitive line at length, but the long and short of it is that Jack feels Florida should drop their case.
The real kicker is this last bit before a promo for his book on the case – What is it with every clown in the world thinking we want to buy a book on this case from those not directly involved?
Interesting. I didn’t click on and read the guy’s whole article; who has time for that crap? But look at this quote:
He was…uh…MURDERED…by what Tom Wolfe called the GWD?
Notice, the greate writer of this article did not say that Trayvon Martin was “KILLED” by the GWD; he was “MURDERED” by the GWD.
That’s precisely what the State of Florida has alleged!
The State of Florida has not alleged that Trayvon Martin was a young Black male who was about to grow up to be a good person. It has not alleged that Trayvon Martin was going to be better than any racist’s expectation for him. It has not alleged that Trayvon Martin was BETTER than George Michael Zimmerman in any way. It has alleged ONLY that George Michael Zimmerman MURDERED Trayvon Martin.
BOOM.
i’m sure jack was so full of jackshyte and hyperbole that his proof-reading missed that point. At least the rest of the Zitnation have the brains not to drop the murder bomb in their defense of him.
What the profogenites are really saying is NOT that Fogen did not murder Trayvon Martin — they KNOW he did. What they are saying is that it was OK for him to murder Trayvon Martin and anybody who objects to that is a [fill in the blank with anything you like such as anti-American, anti-white racist, liberal, Nazi, thug, thuglover, blah blah blah blah blah] so the conclusion must be right because those who oppose it are bad people whose opinions are automatically wrong.
Why is it OK for Fogen to have murdered Trayvon Martin? [Yes they DO know that he did it.] Because:
1. Most Blacks are murdered by other Blacks;
2. Some Blacks have even murdered some whites, which is REALLY bad;
3. All Blacks are easily converted to thugs, even post-mortem;
4. Blacks hate whites when they’re not allowed to; and
5. Siding with any Blacks against any whites makes you low class, even lower class than, say, Fogen and his.
Never thought of myself having much class……you’ve just shown me I don’t 🙂
MMPat, I was once working as a bartender in NY oh around 1974 or 1975 and two young women sat at the bar and had drinks and were talking to each other. I was not in the habit of figuring out “who” customers were but in about two minutes I realized they were Second Avenue East Side prostitutes (who didn’t usually come into that bar so I didn’t know too much about them). They were talking about how low class someone they knew was. She apparently had given them all kinds of reason to KNOW how low class she was. One would add one reason or describe one incident and the other would do her one better. They reached a high pitch. One of them then ventured into the real nitty-gritty: the subject of their scorn was a “N****r-lover.” They agreed that this made her lower class than the “N****rs” she apparently loved!
Geez. When will they stop victimizing the victim and come up with something that proves GZ killed Trayvon in self-defense? Oops. My bad. There is nothing that proves GZ killed Trayvon in self-defense.
Because they’d still be trying to come up with something even after he’s convicted. Oh wait they won’t because the bulk will move on with their lives such as they are. A few may cling on, even send money for his doomed appeals, but they will be just noise on the wind.
Lets be fair here, most will finally get around to changing the flat tire on their house and some will even replace the burned out tail lights on ’em.
Isn’t that the article from the American Thinker? There’s a reason I’ve long referred to it as the ‘American Stinker’. The way they skewed this one is a prime example of that right-wing wag’s dishonesty.
Yup. I knew it was going to be bad from the title. He exceeded my expectations.
@rayvenwolf — just gotta say that i like your style.
*short bow*
It’s funny how DD is suddenly the world’s biggest liar but Fogen, even when he lies, it means nothing
I dont think its even worth reading to be honest
The people who write the articles are completely unreasonable and biased
Usually the simplest answer is usually right
The simplest answer is he killed a kid and that is a huge part of the crime of “murder” hence him being indicted
And if his only excuse is drug use, than Mick Jagger deserves to be terrorized and murdered too, according to his twisted wisdom
There’s no proof that Trayvon was some druggie. Maybe he tried marijuana but so has every other teenager. George Washington grew and smoked weed and he found the country. Besides that, most jurors do not like it when you attack witnesses or victims, especially if it is a moot issue like marijuana usage.
But don’t you know, drugs are bad mmkay? And as far as the Zitnation is concerned a minor amount of weed makes him a druggie and a dealer. Can’t bother arguing the point that he was NOT high at the time, weed is not a gateway drug etc etc.
A small part of me wishes I could sit with some of them and watch their faces as the watch the trial and notice all that THEY think is important never comes up or is pushed aside.
“….a minor amount of weed makes him a druggie and a dealer.”
Yep, and them thar good old boys sits around the still yaking that shit up…..yep, yep, yep…..pass the shine boys. Then again they must really be in hog heaven at the Klan meetin’ talking ’bout that.
There’s something truly wrong and evil about them
At the end of the day, those folks only care about themselves and their agenda
A kid lost his life, pleading for help
He was murdered by a coward in a depraved and evil fashion
What Fogen did was not self defense, or brave, or human or even American
The case is about Fogen and his murder and nothing else
Well said BUT can we agree that Trayvon didn’t “..lose his life..” It was taken from him. I love ya, but I have a problem with that phrase ever since FogenPhooles condescending dad said that early on with that stupid lisp as he pointed at the “T”….the lying bastard.
Has Jack Cashill finally found his perfect angle for his attack on Obama?
American Thinker + Jack Cashill
Apparently so. Because you know every other argument is so passe.
If you say “He’s so BIG, Jack Cashill” a few times, it comes out sounding less than complimentary.
(apologies for dumb joke)
rayvenwolf, the article below was a revelatory moment to me. At the time the late David Mills aka Undercover Black Man posted it, I was very aware that the American Thinker belonged to the American right firmly politically, with a neoconservative outlook on politics. But to what extend this filters down on a rather racist take on the arts too, I wasn’t aware of. FrontPageMag is pretty similar. It seems a continuation of the culture war. Notice Horowitz also wrote a book called “Hating Whitey”.
A Whiter Shade of Jazz
David’s series on Horowitz were also pretty good. He did some really interesting research on Horowitz juggling with numbers in the context of black on white rape among other things.
I agree with elcymoo above, by now I wouldn’t expect different take on matters from either of these places.
FrontPageMag + “George Zimmerman.
Luce, I wish I would understand. But admittedly I have problems to read the American Thinker, I rarely make it through one article there. The nausea becomes to strong already after a few lines. I am with Malisha on that.
@leander
You end up pronouncing (more or less)”He’s a Big Ass H-le”– (I did say it was a dumb joke), because in English one tends to run the words together, whereas German always has a glottal stop separating words starting with a vowel from the end of the word before.
Ok, then I understood.
Not sure what you refer to, composita, as we call it or compounds as you call it, it is not quite as easy and there is no clear rule. About 30% have some type of interfix like -e/en; -(e)s; -(e)n, or er for better pronunciation, but it is not related to vowels.
This is the real racism about this case. Forget Fogen!
What is the only goddamn reason in the world that people believe Trayvon Martin is a thug that was looking to fight adults?
His school records?
Because he tried weed 10 to 20 days ago?
Because his parents are divorced?
What is the only possible reason that people will conclude that TM is a thug and that Joran Vandersloot might be innocent?
I’m not talking about GZ, I’m talking about the media in general and their conclusion that TM really attacked GZ, Alan Douchebagnowits who demands the prosecutor drop the case without looking at the evidence, this profane and perversly racist article that is distributed to the very people who will be in the jury pool. Why are these people so dead set on corrupting a potential jury with so many articles when they could just simply drop it till the case goes to trial?
This is sick…
Besides the obvious and them using this case as a platform for their own bias? No reason, at least no valid one. IF Jordan Davis’ murder case was getting as much attention news wise they would be doing the exact same thing. Actually they would be worse since one of Jordan’s friends in the vehicle was supposedly on probation and the defendant’s claim that he saw a shotgun leveled at him. A shotgun that miraculously was never fired or emptied, giving him enough time to get his gun, load and fire off several rounds.
There are some, but the numbers are not as large for this case. In a way its a good thing, because twice the extreme level of insanity, bigotry and racism would just be too much.
From an article about new evidence on Jordan Davis.
“According to sheriff’s deputies, Dunn said he fled the scene with his girlfriend because he feared for his safety. He was arrested the following day. Dunn has no previous criminal history and told deputies he had asked the teens to turn down their music, which prompted a verbal altercation.”
And he’s claiming Stand Your Ground……How is that even possible since they were in their car. Does yelling “Booo” constitute a life threatening situation.
He keeps saying there was shotgun but the police are “Standing Their Ground” on that one…..maybe he and FogenPhoole can be cell mates ???
Different county so unlikely. Dunn also has a books worth of charges hanging over his head. His story is about as bad as GZ’s though. First he THOUGHT he saw a weapon(lawyer #1) after a changing of the guard with lawyers and officially being charged it turned into for sure he saw a shotgun.
Yep, another preposterous “Revolving Story Defense”
nd at the top of the slop line feeding this, is junior and the defense team is doing their bit too– did they really think that saying ‘no racists need apply to send money’, would discourage them?
I’ve come into a white supremacist while travelling in the US, in time to overhear him brag (and these words will never leave me) “I shot [said a number] of them”. The conversation I walked into, had begun not a couple minutes earlier, all total strangers to this person, who seemed to have an interest in discussing what he believed was our country’s problem of a certain race [not black] moving into a certain city. He may have been physhing for like minds, he found NONE. That whole short encounter was a real eye opener, makes you wonder if these racists meet up with people who spend winters in the southern states, to ply their views.
He seemed to want to connect again, he sat at a building across the roadway, and looked right into where we were parked. I got a sick feeling in my stomach looking at his stare, knowing what he said, and was glad we didn’t have to walk the path he was sitting at before leaving the place.
correction, ‘come into contact with’
It is because people like that are just evil people and not logical
It is the same as saying when a tiger ate the zebra, it was out of self defense, when logically we all know a zebra does not stand a chance against a tiger
If you look at how they present, they are not reasonable nor do they care about the case, it is just a platform for them to use
All the people that signed the petition simply asked that there be a professional investigation, objective, and to give rights to the kid that was stalked and killed by the defendant, who by my account is lying about everything
I do not feel what people of all races asked for in this case is unreasonable at all, because even before the evidence came out, his story was fishy at best
We are supposed to believe a kid with Skittles and Ice Tea, running away from the defendant, avoiding the defendant is supposed to be dangerous to the defendant? A scrawny 158 kid with no combat experience presented more terror and danger than the defendant whom had a gun and a car and a lengthy history of stalking and violence? Why do you think they tell so many lies?
First Trayvon was over 6 feet tall, some even said 7 feet tall, and Trayvon 200 pounds, and all that nonsense… they knew the truth was, even without a gun coming into play, the truth is, Trayvon could not stand a chance against Fogen, whatsoever
Besides who cares what they say, none of them were there, nor are they objective, so whatever they say, does not mean much
Again well said. Here’s food for thought…you said
“If you look at how they present, they are not reasonable nor do they care about the case, it is just a platform for them to use”
Back on Oct. 5th (Fogen’s birthday) when I was on HP, not one Zidiot wished him a happy birthday. I watched until well into the afternoon then went on rant on how they knew so little about him they didn’t know what day it was.
The only responses I got back from Zidiots was (paraphrase) “It’s not about him, it’s about our gun rights and our right to shoot (defend against) “them” ”
The members of Team Trayvon rolled with me on that the rest ofd the day. Look at the comments on the one year anniversary and Trayvon’s birthday here.
Not one Zidiot actually has a complimentary word about Fogen, not one. They’ll rip Trayvon, his parents, Crump, the state,us and anyone who stands up for the victim.
I can’t argue Mush Brain Dersh had an impact last year, but the NRA and those crazy racists are gung ho and 1/2 probably never even knew who Dersh was.
racerrodig~ it seems the NRA has dropped him, too. They have bigger problems right now and can’t be bothered with the GZ circus.
My bad…..”…were gung ho…” yes they have decided he isn’t
“Poster Boy Material” after all.
@racer, do you still post over at HP? there are some pretty sick IDIOTS posting there and the father of the defendant is the leader of the wolf pack and, IMO he ought to be a shamed of himself for taking part in defaming this kid who his son murdered in cold blood. this man hasn’t had a heart attack as of yet. besides, he lied about having one in the first place. you can’t have as many blockages as he claimed to have, and still be around to show your racism on blog sites! *THE LYING THUG.*
I only gop over there about every 2 weeks to post. I do read some of the filth howver every few days. It’s the same 6 Zidiots with 10 names apiece. They still have no idea as to what the reality is.
One doesn’t even know how to spell Trayvon. He actually popped up here and we called him on it. If you’d like, I can go over there and raise a little hell with them. Most don have enough hair on thrie ass to even respond back anymore.
@racer, you don’t know how glad I am that the LE in Jacksonville Fla, are not trying to help this POS in the Jordan Davis case get away with his crime. he probably thought that all LE in the state of Florida were as incompetent and racist as those in Sanford. there a quite a few on the force in Sanford who should be investigated and thrown in prison along with Fogen. as for MO, he is involved in Trayvon’s murder up to his beady little eyeballs. there is a lot more to this case that we don’t know about, as well as some others who were involved in this as well. there is the IN CROWD of those who called 911 when the gun shot went off. these people know more than what they are willing to tell. Frank Taaffe is one of the main ones and, he doesn’t mind who knows that he is holding something back by the way he said of his interview with the FBI, “I DIDN’T GIVE UP ANYTHING” were his very words. then there is Jon, Jeremy and his old lady. they all know what Fogen did and they all were witness to his criminal behavior and the murder he committed that night.
They could have stopped Fogen but, they chose not to and now their dear old NW Zero is on trial for murder2 and, they should be facing some charges themselves.
I could not agree more. I think at some point a great deal of the why and who else will become known. One of my LE guys just giggles a bit when I talk about conspiracy theory in a way as if he knows enough to confirm it with a giggle.
Phone & Text records……..
LMAO is it just me, or does looking into Fogen’s eyes, tell you something? I swear he has no pokerface LMAO
After all the media babble about picking somebody young — This one’s 76,
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2013/03/vatican-calls-white-smoke-a-false-alarm-we-were-just-burning-documents.html#ixzz2NRlnI9jj
i m o something very damming must have emerged about the previous pope to make him resign.
If the fact he was a member of the hitler youth movement wasnt enough to bar him from takeing the papesy.
Something involveinng peadophillia more than likely.
This will convince themselfs this is a sign from God that the Falklands belong to Argintina……..Going to call himself Francis.
Don’t tell iron lady Maggie Thatcher …
Be careful, Colin. There are theologians of the caliber of Thomas Aquinas, Origen, etc. in here. They might bring the anger of the Lord God upon you and blot out your name from the book of life.
Don’t worry, Colin. Nobody in the Vatican can blot your name out of the book of life. A whole nother Tribe has good connections with the publisher and we’ve got you in there already.
Colin Black- fear not. You’re ok in MY Book ‘O Life!
Sent from my iPod
Colin is Aces in my book. Let ’em say something, we got your back.
@Malisha
😉
Gerorge meet Jorge
i cannot help but wonder if the new pope (a white hispanic at that) will cause anyone who considers that classification to be made up and arbitrary to reconsider their bigoted beliefs.
LOL! Hey I’m a white Hispanic but I guess I don’t count.
Sent from my iPod
Just anouceing new Pope now
An Argintinian Called Jorge Mario Bergoli
Family in Argentina for a few generations of Italian extraction? Their way to put someone in there who is “from somewhere else” when he’s really “their own”? Not that I really care. Whoever’s pope, ‘s pope. Infallible and all that. I tend to avoid infallible people. They’re right too much of the time and I find it irritating. If he DID invite me to some of his parties I wouldn’t have the right dress to wear anyway.
Ooops … new one looks white to me, likely to keep pooping out all the edicts of old — while devout followers gush in admiration about how it’s a new day. Hear ye, hear ye, pedophiles, from now on be more discreet.
fauxmccoy says:
March 13, 2013 at 11:42 am
dear god, man, i do hope you are being paid well somewhere for your brilliance in phiolosphy
If you are refering to me thanks but your far to kind.
As a writter Im a mere hack.
With my mouth I must admitt I have a silver tounge.
But doesnt translate to writting..
As for pay nae ..Im rewarded in the best possable way any human could be.
With the love an respect of my Partner a good an kind Woman who loves an respects me as I do her.
An Ive also had the love of many animals over my life .
Cats an Dogs mainly.
But I love animals even insects excepting midges an mosqiutos
Birds also amaze an facinate me..
Im not a missonthrapist but I can count the number of true freinds on one hand.
An none of my blood Family is on there infact Ive had no contact with my family by choice for decades..
PS A new Popes just Poped ub hope they picked a Black one.
What a message to an ex alter boy that will send.
fingers crossed.
Mind you it was white smoke they burned when he was annonted pls pls pls let him be from Africa.
But a black pope might be on drugs or sumpem … we wouldn’t know what his deal would be, especially if he came to check us out …
Real suspicious, they are, when it is raining.
@Tzar, if you are on here today, go to the site doth protest to much, and they have a real good photo of Fogen sitting in court crying. I thought it was on the Benjamin “Justice 4 Trayvon” Crump site but, I went to both sites after I posted the reply to your question last night. he is crying in that photo as plain as day so, go check it out. the same goes for the one in video #5 at the 02/05/13 hearing as well.
thanks will do
Do you mean this pic?
Does this reflect Fogen doing a demo of the night his eyes were filled with copious quantities of blood?
Isn’t that picture the result of his frustration after trying to do this and failing at this simple task
Or maybe he’s thinking “…….where’s my phone, the Judge is acting real suspicious”
@Tzar, that’s the one and, to me it looks like he is crying for sure. also i the #5 video by Trent at the hearing when his motion to continue was denied, his baby sitter or what ever she is, looked over at him with this oh so sad look on her face, moved over in front of him so the cameras wouldn’t catch it all but, you can see him wiping his eyes with his jacket sleeve. other people have seen it and, they have come to the same conclusion, that Fogen was crying.
I can’t say it is for sure since I can’t see his face
but let him be crystal clear that he has not shed any tears compared to those of Trayvon and his family
Crying huh? He didn’t care about Trayvon crying before he killed him. He will be crying a lot in his prison cell.
Boo hoo. Reality is sinking in. Not a nice feeling,huh?
Sent from my iPod
@ladystclaire, I don’t know that he is crying, but I sure would have rather seen him shed a tear or two rather than see that disgusting smirk he had on his face on Hannity (especially where he said he said punk – above) and say he had no remorse.
It is just too little too late now for me. I feel like he is only crying because he got caught, not because he took the life of another human being, with malice and no remorse.
His tears are not for Trayvon or his family (just look at the disgusting comments his “team” not only allows but instigates and cheers on about them). His tears are only for himself.
Boofricketyhoo.
That was so sad for Tracy to find out about the murder/death of his son. how in the hell can some people support somebody who kills a kid and then lie about it being self defense, especially since there is a ton of evidence that says otherwise. there is a lot of heartless people in this country. a country where everyone is suppose to have equal rights and protection under the laws of this country.
I don’t know what would cause some people to do the things, that they are doing in this case. I don’t care if Trayvon was as black as seven mid nights, he was still a human being as well as a child of GOD. this fool Fogen (may his name be forgotten) will for ever live in fear and he should!
TOO MUCH BRILL CREAM: A little DAB will do-ya!
@Rachael, I so agree with you and, yes his tears are for himself because a real investigation was done in this case and, proved him to be a liar. I hope he never knows a peaceful day for the rest of his miserable life, whether he is in or out of prison. as for those who are supporting and backing him, they too have a day of reckoning and, it’s not going to be too pretty either.
WHAT GOES AROUND, COMES AROUND!
Well, let’s see.
1. GZ wanted a low bail. ShelLIE lied, and the court ordered a $150,000 bond. Then his bond was revoked for sitting in court like a potted palm. When the court subsequently granted a second bond, it was a million dollars.
2. His defense fund almost exhausted, GZ went on Hannity’s program and ended up giving the State a “gold mine.”
3. GZ wanted conditions of his bond altered to remove the GPS ankle bracelet and allow him to travel anywhere in Florida. DENIED.
4. GZ wanted Trayvon’s and DeeDee’s social media, and Facebook told O’Mara in so many words to go suck a lemon.
5. GZ tried selling his autograph to raise donations. That didn’t work out well because ….
6. GZ and ShelLIE are named defendants in a lawsuit seeking $28,000 for unpaid services.
7. GZ wanted Trayvon’s school records and in the last hearing, the attorney for FDLE said in open court that nothing in those records is admissible in this case.
8. GZ wanted to argue for his benefit that he is the person whose screams were captured in the 911 tape. BDLR stated in open court that there are two voices on that tape.
9. GZ wanted to depose Serino, and as a result, Serino hired Baez who gave BDLR info that Serino originally wanted to charge GZ with 2nd degree murder.
10. GZ wanted addresses for Trayvon’s parents and DeeDee. DENIED.
GZ apparently does not yet realize that not only what goes around comes around, but it is coming around on him like a freight train at high speed.
Don’t yajust hate when all those facts get in the way…..must really suck to be FogenPhoole about now.
III=> Tick – Tock <=III
@racerrodig
Oh yes. Must also suck to be O’Mara and West who take advice from Zidiots that has resulted in “DENIED.”
The Outhouse stopped and pulled all Fogen open discussion comments this afternoon.
Trouble a brewin’
@racerrodig
Sundance considered that after BDLR stated in open court about that website exposing (doxing) Witness 9. Sundance is not stupid. The feds will hold him responsible for all comments posted by others that violate cyber-law, and that includes those comments that constitute witness intimidation.
I can pretty much guarantee that Fogen’s not thinking “….man, for middle age, Judge Nelson is HOT…..”
No, he’s thinking “I hope the camera doesn’t catch me crying…..how would that look when those pesky members of Team Trayvon get hold of that…..then my Zidiot Nation will loose all faith”
It occurs to me that the prosecution has a really audible copy of ALL the 911 tapes and that is the source of BDLR’s unflappable confidence. The conversations that can be made out on those tapes when background noises are removed will reveal that Fogen is not only interrogating Trayvon, but that he is threatening him. My money is on, “You’re gonna tell me or you’re gonna die tonight, motherfucker.” Just sayin…
I doubt that. Whatever the digital sample rate these calls were recorded at, it doesn’t seem likely that the city of sanford had the motivation or technical savvy to downgrade the quality before posting them on the city’s website. I’d guess that whatever file type was used is what was released, or that the functional difference is negligible.
BDLR unflappable confidence is a sign that he is doing his job, whether he has actual confidence or not.
Having said that, I think he has a strong body of evidence that he can and will use to get a jury to convict GZ of manslaughter in the least, and probably the full M2 charge.
But a lot of the background screaming is hard to hear, because it is several times interrupted when they cut out the sections where the caller is giving their details. With those left it, there would be better continuity on the background. Also some of the foreground (the caller) could be digitally removed.
” Unflappable confidence” I think was displayed when BDLR mentioned in one court hearing that there are TWO voices on the tape.
Willisnewton, BDLR better have something to beyond reasonable doubt exclude GZ as the person howling and yelling for help on that 911-tape. If not, in which case you are right, there definitely will be huge problem getting GZ convicted – unless O’Mara is really a dunce. I do not think any jury will convict if there is doubt as to who was screaming for help that night. If prosecutors are simply going to rely on Trayvon’s parents to rule GZ out, that may not be good enough. I wearily shear Malisha’s views. I shall also not forget what Angela Corey said: “there is a lot the public does not know, yet”. The suspense keeps building up.
“BDLR better have something to beyond reasonable doubt exclude GZ as the person howling…”
He has the recording of GZ’s voice exemplars yelling “Help me!” “Hah, hah!” etc. which sound nothing like the screams on the 911 call.
I don’t believe there is any problem, or can be any problem, convicting Fogen if the prosecution WANTS to go to trial. If, however, they want to keep certain evidence out of the public view (to protect WHOMEVER they want to protect — we cannot even know that), they’ll do a plea deal. I don’t think it matters who is yowling on the tapes, either. If I decided to kill somebody I wanted to blame the death on, I’d scream bloody murder while I blew him away — I ain’t as dumb as I look. But what I think will be proven is that Fogen was threatening and interrogating Trayvon in that verbal encounter. I ALWAYS heard “no way no wayyyy” about a minute before the death shot on the 911 fearshriek-gunshot-silence tape.
Help me out. Didn’t the evidence show that there were six (6) bullets still remaining in Fogen’s gun when it was recovered by the police that night?
Has O’Mara deposed Tim Smith?
Has O’Mara deposed Raimondo?
“Help me out. Didn’t the evidence show that there were six (6) bullets still remaining in Fogen’s gun when it was recovered by the police that night?”
There were 7 bullets remaining in the gun, which had 8 in it before being fired the one time.
When it was fired, one of the 7 in the magazine got removed from the magazine and loaded into the chamber right after the empty shell was ejected. This is all done automatically by the “kick-back” of the fired bullet.
So when the police took custody of it there 6 bullets in the magazine, but there was also one in the chamber, for a total of 7 out of the absolute maximum possible of 8, with 8 only being possible if it has not been fired since having been loaded.
unitron
“Help me out. Didn’t the evidence show that there were six (6) bullets still remaining in Fogen’s gun when it was recovered by the police that night?”
Perhaps my previous post should have included that the FDLE laboratory report of March 8, 2012 lists as agency exhibit DMS-11 the shell which was ejected when Zimmerman fired, as exhibit ME-4 the various pieces of the bullet itself, and, as exhibit TS-1
“One 9mm Luger caliber Kel-Tec model PF-9 semiautomatic pistol,serial number RJY08, one 9mm Luger caliber cartridge, one holster and one magazine containg six 9mm Luger caliber cartidges”
The cartridge mentioned after the serial number and before the holster is the one that was loaded into the firing chamber of the gun itself automatically when the gun was fired the one time.
Removing the magazine would have left that bullet in the gun.
unitron
I’m sure they have enhanced the tapes
The recordings are not that bad
We do not know because it is work product
On top we have this evidence
1) It does not sound like Fogen’s voice. It actually sounds like a kid.
2) w18, w1, Mary & Selma, have all remarked that it sounded like a kid was in trouble and yelling for help or making squealing strange noises
3) The rest of the witnesses, with the exception of w6 and w11, have remarked that they heard yells for help which were ended with the gunshot. This tells me the yells for help were in desperation of about to being killed by a stranger with a gun, which was what was happening to Trayvon. There was not anything Trayvon was doing that was life threatening. Only one person could conclusively threaten someone’s life that night and that is Fogen.
4) There’s no dna whatsoever on Trayvon’s hands, sleeves, or cuffs, so there is no way he is responsible for any of the minor injuries on Fogen or attacked Fogen in any way, even in self defense.
5) Fogen ran after Trayvon starting from by the clubhouse and ended up south of the T point dog walk area, which is over 500 feet, which was where Trayvon was running toward and around. W2 confirms the chase. W2 is more believable than Fogen because her testimony matches the evidence and she has no connection to either the victim or the defendant. Obviously by Trayvon running away from the defendant, it shows he was scared. I doubt within the span of 7 minutes those feelings would change
6) Sybrina identifies the screams to be that of Trayvon Martin. I feel she is more truthful and credible because she does not sound like she is trying to sell you like Junior and Pops does.
7) Fogen when he first heard the tape, said it does not sound like him
8) Only w8 claimed Trayvon yelled “get off” and in fact, it is heard on the 911 tape. The screaming matches Trayvon being the person in trouble and the evidence. The screaming does not match Fogen’s story at all (his three million versions)
9) Fogen even admitted that Trayvon was yelling for help. Admission by a party opponent rule and there is nothing to finish there.
10) w18 saw it from the confrontation onward and places Fogen as the aggressor and even noted there was no need to kill the kid.
11) I think w6 will either admit he does not know what he saw or he will admit that he was threatened by the defendant because his story changed from his 911 call forward. W6 only claimed a wrestling match which was ended with a gunshot. He then later changed his testimony 4 times.
12) Fogen is not credible.
13) The GPS will prove that Fogen is a liar.
14) I think they also have Fogen’s GPS
So, what you’re detailing is what I’ve been saying in that it must really, really suck to be FogenPhoole about now ??
Phone Records……Text Messages……..Conviction
Titanic…….Iceberg……Sinking ship…..
Not only that Racer
I also theorize that as soon as the defense, in it’s opening statements claims self defense as their affirmative defense, it opens the door to his lies regarding his structuring and the hiding of his money and passport, because the defense is telling the jury to presume him innocent and that Fogenhats is credible, therefore the state can enter that in as soon as the opening statement, to show that he can manipulate, lie and scheme and he can be a person that is less than credible
I have listened numerous times to the scream 911 tape and I can say that I have never felt it was Fogenhats
There is a distinguishable squeal and yelp in pain where you hear a “ah” as if in pain and it sounds like a kid. The “get off” also sounds like a kid. The helps also sound like a “kid”.
During trial, the redacted part will be left in for the jury and judge to hear and there is stuff there we dont know as the public
Judge objectively for yourself
To me it does not sound like Fogenhats and sounds like a kid screaming for help and pleading, and squealing in pain
Not for one second did I ever think it was FogenPhoole yelling. What he says he yelled and what is yelled are different and the fact that it is high pitched sends his lie down the toilet.
Only a die hard racist will buy he screamed to the instant he pulled the trigger. Then where are the comments on the 911 calls which were still going on where he says “…ya got me…or ya got it…”
Anyone who buys that crap has an IQ of about room temperature.
racer~ room temperature at the Antarctic.
I’ll go with that.
There is a lot the public does not know YET and probably a lot the public will never know. That is what bothers me about the case, SECOND only to the fact that Fogen killed Trayvon Martin, which is what bothers me MOST about the case.
Malisha- consider though, that due to Florida’s Sunshine Laws, we know a tremendous deal more than we would be able to find out in any other state. See? You’ve gotten spoiled and want to know it all!
Sent from my iPod
That’s one of the troubles… We know so much more than will probably ever be used in the actual trial. I think that what we want to know more for is, to enable us to confirm or disprove some of the many theories the evidence has allowed us to build.
About “knowing it all”: When the State misfunctions in such a way as to receive evidence of an intent by one citizen to interfere with the freedom of another citizen (the NEN call), and within minutes, the state receives evidence that the “other” citizen is dead and the “one” citizen says, “I shot him” (the victim’s body and the defendant’s statements) and they STILL do not see probable cause to charge the “one” citizen with a crime, well Hell YEAH I want to know everything. I want to know everything that the state did, everything that the defendant did, everything that happened, every single bit of it. I think that is necessary in a case where there have been gross lies and the strong appearance of official corruption.
Malisha- I’m actually agreeing with you. But I don’t think we’ll ever get everything, even with the generous Sunshine Laws. There will be some amount of cover up that will be successful. We most likely not get Lee or Wolfinger, but we’ll nail GZ. Lee gets no pension so he’s out years of compensation. Wolfie appears to be the only one that will escape unscathed. And that sticks in the craw but what can be done?
Sent from my iPod
That would explain the intense nature of his screams. No one screams like that unless they are afraid for their life.
I was hoping for RZ Junior to have to take the stand because I would find it entertaining if Junior had to answer while being scrutinized for credibility and having a reasonable discussion and debate, rather than his softball and angry yells where he says he is truth or else LOL
It would be really cool if someone tweets him on the stand and they “get it on” then the tweets are given to Bernie who hands them to the Judge since they are about her..
LMAO So Junior is also bad mouthing the judge, eh?
I though he was concentrating on black folks but I guess is an Afro peruvian non racist LMAO
Was Fogen’s schruck a lease job? Don’t some of the newer models come with internal GPS-style boxes with forensic tracking?
wondered about that, but maybe the Honda gps doesn’t have street names on it’s maps. Same with his cheapie phone.
Trayvon’s telephone GPS-data would be enough in locating where GZ was. Remember GZ described driving past Trayvon, Trayvon walking past GZ and Trayvon running away from GZ. I suspect that those data might show that Trayvon was walking along- and ran away from THE SAME STREET GZ claimed he went to, to get an address for the dispatcher. If that is the case, GZ would also be on that very same street. This would mean (only in “zimmerworld”) that GZ was walking over to the very same street he was already standing in the middle of, to get an address for the dispatcher.
A truck very much like his was sold locally after his arrest. Some speculated that he upgraded his vehicle using the “peter pan” money just as he upgraded his laptops and cell phones and standard of living in general. I doubt that it was leased, and I doubt that there is ANY useful GPS info of any kind that will come to light at trial.
Trayvon’s phone died before midnight. Some think this may be why there is “no GPS data for the night in question” as MOM has contended.
No one knows any of this for certain yet.
That slithering slimy weasel.
If anyone knows, was the Honda truck normally parked safely in itt’s townhouse aka ‘home’ garage?
Because it was parked ‘wrong way’ across the street, tail end to One Oak intersection when the re-enactment crew got rolling after picking up the killer.
Might indicate that someone else parked that car there, like maybe the police, returning the vehicle? Too much to hope for, but you never know.
Off topic, about ‘the grill’ as equivalent to ‘thug’ used in the demonization of the victim by self-serving, defense and racist propaganda.
I came across a video clip that addressed this so well, but first a short clip for background.
Remember the London Olympics and Michael Phelps, US mult-x’s Olympic medalist, and the upstart swimmer who beat his medals record?
(Then more in next post)
Charles Blow speech at Cornell University, September 20, 2012.
oh thank you! i heart charles blow. i cannot tell you how many times i had to educate ignorant bigots on the huffpost that a grill is a temporary mouthpiece, dental jewelry if you will. i would link web sites where the could be purchased for ten bucks or less because the bigot consensus was ‘how can he afford all those nasty gold teeth? must be dealing drugs or sumpin’. gah! yeah, i remember when mick jagger sported a pierced tooth and no one said he was a thug.
Revisiting the position one year ago this month, before charges were laid.
Bill Maher on HLN Dr. Drew
(Maher predicted escalation, widening of the scope of the SYG laws, and guess what was in the news recently by the originator of the SYG in Florida, bill proposals that would allow people to defend others. Anyone seeing a need by their own judgement, take action first, ask questions never?)
@Fauxmccoy!
AMEN! It’s a fad. The rapper Paul Wall and Johnny Dang orginally made the grill popular. Paul Wall is white rapper and Johnny Dang is a vietnamese jeweler. Both are from Houston Texas.
Thanks for both videos – I hadn’t seen these before.
PS – When I was a little girl, my mom had a bridge at the front of her mouth with two false teeth held by gold it – an early grille. In those days, bridges were often made with gold between the teeth until natural-looking bridges became common.
Papa’s bling observations, on the ‘claimed’ freshly broken nose, no less!.
Actually, what I notice more is how he walks – not how I imagine I would walk after suffering “severe” injuries 2 days ago. I would think every step I’d take would make my nose hurt.
But maybe that is just me. Maybe everyone walks that way after being severely beaten around the head and face.
Good point Rachael. He should’ve at least been sore from head to toe after giving maximum effort. I played kickball recently, even though I work out I could barely move. But it wasn’t a fight for my dear life where I gave everything I got… I sat down a couple of times.
Every once in a while where I work, I am involved in a behavior incident where I may have to hold on to legs or arms to keep the person from injuring themself or others and let me tell you…I am sore in for a few days. You use muscles that you don’t normally use and don’t feel a thing until the adrenaline rush is gone.
One time it was the muscle on the top of my foot that was so darn sore just from using that foot for leverage in the position that I was in. Sometimes, your arms are sore or chest muscles and let me tell you I have not once not had a bruise or an abrasion to either an elbow or knee from being on the ground.
The fact that Fogen said the only thing hurting him was his nose and back tell me that he wasn’t fighting for his life, aside from the fact that he admitted he did nothing to defend himself before shooting Trayvon, and that is because there was nothing to defend himself against.
What was that “injury” to his back again? I think it is usually caused in falls…like him slipping on the wet grass just as the boy with the dog thought he saw.
I never broke my nose but playing HS football I had a few instances where I got hit on my nose. The worst one was while I was on a corner blitz at a left handed QB, he didn’t see me until I was just a few yards away. He instinctively put his right hand up and it went between my face mask and he hit my nose. It’s easy to picture right.
I took him down and as I was “celebrating” a sack, the Umpire came over and escorted me off the field. I had no idea why until the medical staff came running over and I looked down at my white jersey, now covered in blood. It was 90 or so out and I never felt the warm blood between my sweat & the heat.
The entire front of my jersey and the upper part of my pants were bloody. My nose was not broken, but the pain !!!!!!!!! That was on a Sat. I could not even pull my chin strap snug until about Thur.
Fogen…….Your a liar….a bold faced liar. Tell us again all about those multiple blows to the head.
…And don’t forget that LLMPapa caught the cctv of Fogen at the station carrying sunglasses the next day. LOL, BDLR should walk up behind MOM while he’s at the podium on one of his after hearing press conferences, sprouting nonsense about his undisputed broken nose. BDLR should have a 18 x 24 poster of GZ at the station with the sunglasses hanging from his neck and just walk that back and forth a few times for the cameras, then leave without saying a word.
Not only that, but he grabbed his nose repeatedly during the interviews to show how Trayvon allegedly grabbed it.
What a dork….
His PA diagnosed him with an aggravated SI, he had a history of lower back problems and had a special orthopedic chair he used at work that became an issue at work when another worker cut the lock on the chair to gain access to his work space.
IF his truck was parked where he claims it was there was an address to his right and another address directly in FRONT of him that he had to walk by to get to RVC…….the whole getting an address story is total fabrication, he wasnt asked for one and he didnt look for one.
What comes up when you part in that spot, only yards from the clubhouse address near at the main gate Oregon Rd address on screen for the driver? I assume forensic tracking, you mean after the fact records of more precise coordinates for the gps being used? How different is that from the accuracy of cell phone ping triangulation?
But didn’t he say that a vehicle was blocking his view of that address?
Very little of what he said during that walkthrough of the scene seemed reality-based, to me.
Yeah, he did say that, but in all his hand gesturing explanations during the ‘re-enactment’, from inside the car to outside the car, and all the previous statements, he never thought to bring that point up.
Only AFTER the ‘re-enactment’ walk through, did he think about what Sgt Smith had pointed out to him when they were finding the right parking spot, he didn’t clue in — “up by the Ford truck?” Smith asked, and the shooter saw it , we KNOW he saw it 😉 affirmed).
Get back to “facts” please people.
There was never any doubt that a house number is clearly visible near where GZ says he parked.
What he said in the re-enactment was HE FORGOT THE NAME OF THE STREET. A house number without a street name is NOT AN ADDRESS. He went through to RVC which he knew the name of, to get a house number from there, to put together
street name + house number = address.
So a visible number on a street he can’t remember the name of doesn’t count. Stop getting hung up on irrelevancies. OKAY?
Err… Actually, because of the RATL’s design, a house number needs no street name. All the house numbers in RATL are unique regardless of street name. So the dispatcher has only to put the house number into map and he gets back an exact location. The 911 call center is GPS equipped and e911 ready, meaning they can actually locate your phone, even if you don’t give any address.
That is the data that BDLR has turned over to MOM, that MOM doesn’t want to release. But GZ’s NeN call went through the e911 system so Sean was probably getting location data from GZ’s phone as they spoke. In fact, that’s probably how Sean knew that GZ was following Trayvon, because they could see his GPS data changing rapidly at the same time he started huffing and puffing.
Funny thing is, when I read one of those reports, I noted that the location of the calls location said TTL & Long Oak Way. That’s when I went and searched to see if Sanford was e911 enabled. Yes it was!
E911 let’s the call center locate a callers position by the GPS data from their phone. It’s a safety feature that means, if you’re in trouble, you can dial 911 and drop the phone, hide it under bed covers or leave it on a table, you don’t have to speak, as long as the line is open the call center can hear and locate your phone.
Once the FDLE got involved they probably pulled the E911 data on GZ’s phone and that’s why Lee and Wolfinger had to stand down. If so, there’s gonna be a whole lotta shakin going on in Sanford.
Lonnie- so this GPS locator thing is more accurate than the triangulation used to find a cell phones location using available call towers? IOWs is it different than the “ping logs” that CTH kept blabbering about?
Sent from my iPod
Yep, you can google for it, e911 is a phone locator for situations where providing an address may not be possible.
In North America, where 9-1-1 was chosen as the easy access code, the system tries to automatically associate a location with the origin of the call. This location may be a physical address or other geographic reference information such as X/Y map coordinates. The caller’s telephone number is used in various ways to derive a location that can be used to dispatch police, fire, emergency medical and other response resources. Automatic location of the emergency makes it quicker to locate the required resources during fires, break-ins, kidnappings, and other events where communicating one’s location is difficult or impossible.
Question, could another good reason why no SYG hearing, be the defendant’s own stories, which are sorta, fairly, kinda consistent, about his self-proclaimed need to get out of his vehicle for a better address for the police responder? If we believe him about his-
direct trip all the way past the T to RVC, and and if we believe the tick-tock-tick-tock of the NEN recording, seconds, and if we believe the defendant’s own statement on Hannity (LLMPapa already brought this to light some time ago) about waiting once at RVC (in the rain, getting wet, in the dark) for a “police officer I’d called”, why did the defendant loiter on RVC without getting any address?
Instead, he claims when got there, he told Sean at NEN “he’s gone”, hung up the phone without giving a new and improved street address, nor even possible meeting location. He hangs up, after “in the heat of the moment” gave his own address when asked specifically for it, (why ‘heat’ if the ‘suspect’ was gone) put it away in a different pocket (not at the ready to hit 911 speed dial), all while he was waiting over there on the sidewalk at RVC?
Kinda blows his account of why he had to leave his vehicle in the first place, including the argument that MO’man said to Dr. Phil, that he got out when asked by NEN, to let him know if he does anything else’ and ‘what direction did he run’.
(setting aside the rediculous idea in the first place, of backs of houses, and no street sign, and house blocked by the big white truck.).
GZ told Serino he had left RVC and was heading back to his truck at 7:12:41 pm. The ONLY time he was asked for an addy by the NEN dispatcher was at 7:12:52 pm, EIGHT SECONDS LATER.
Sooo….if he had this grand burning desire to get out of his truck and dutifully trek over to RVC for an addy, why’d this genius tell the dispatcher he didn’t KNOW an address EIGHT seconds AFTER he was there?
LOL, sorry….ELEVEN seconds later.
To be honest, he has a bad memory, a real BAD memory.
I admire your work — instructive, pithy, memorable, and intelligently created.
As opposed to the “work” of Knox —destructive, pissy, forgetable, and created for idiots. .
Bad memory? Maybe you’re right, but let me ask you….
-If his collective recall is so BAD he supposedly can’t remember the name of a street, in a 3 street development where he lives AND patrols each night
-If his memory is so BAD he can’t remember a halfway accurate progression of events for that night
How can we, OR a jury, believe anything he says, particularly when it flies in the face of logic? For example….
-How many times have you ever heard of an UNARMED,17 year old minor hanging around in the pitch black dark of night to attack someone, with nothing but his bare hands, outweighing him by OVER 40 lbs?
-How can it possibly be viewed as believable there was no DNA or blood on Trayvon if HE did in fact, do this head bashing smothering bs?
-How can ANYONE, possibly, believe his detailed accounting of movement leading up to “What’s your problem, Homie”, when the timing sequence CLEARLY places him still on the NEN call at that point?
-If you don’t believe “Homie” happened, how can you believe an illogically motivated attack happened?
Maybe this dude IS brain dead, IDK, but you can’t reasonably believe, or credit, the “poor poor George” parts of his tale and chalk the details not beginning to make any sense up to a “bad memory”.
In my opinion, THAT’S the real reason there will be no SYG hearing prior to trial.
I think Cecando may have been in irony mode. 🙂
Sorry LLMPapa, I was lumping together my admiration into the same comment as my quotation of Fogen’s excuse. I thought you were responding rhetorically.
May all your work prove ace-in-the-hole for Corey, BDLR, and the Martin family’s counsel. As the Prosecution might intone, “Habemus LLMPapam.”
Thank You for your kind words.
If I came across as strong to you, it wasn’t my intent. Over the past year, there’s been every kind of excuse known to mankind thrown out as benefit for this cat and at the end of the day it seems very, very simple to me.
He killed an unarmed child trying to go home.
It’s getting closer and closer to when reality has to be faced.
Don’t forget,if his truck was parked where he claims he was near homes with clearly marked addresses,he didn’t need to go to the next block.
IMO the timing is such that it seems GZ jogged/fast walked to the T, and paused there possibly for quite a bit before sauntering to RVC where he ended his call. Keep in mind it was very dark and the grass was wet. GZ stayed to the sidewalk, but TM having likely already been wet-of-foot and scared, had no such compunction to stay on the sidewalk. GZ looked down the dogwalk path most likely and, having failed to see the teen ON THE PATH assumed the kid went to RVC. IMO TM was probably not far away from the T, likely near the spot where he died but George failed to see him at that time.
Naw it is not consistent, because beforehand, he gives the address for the clubhouse and says Trayvon is by the clubhouse, and he says that his car is just past the mailboxes, which is by the clubhouse
He also said Trayvon was checking him out and said he was by the clubhouse, so the only way Trayvon could have been by him to check him out is if he was by the clubhouse
The simple fact is he excitedly uttered that he was by the clubhouse and mailboxes
When “re-enactment” day came, he lied about where he parked because he was trying to hide the fact he went from the clubhouse to get Trayvon on foot because they are contradictory statements and he will have to admit he lied
The GPS records will put a huge hole in the defendant’s stories
“When “re-enactment” day came, he lied about where he parked because he was trying to hide the fact he went from the clubhouse to get Trayvon on foot because they are contradictory statements and he will have to admit he lied”
So the officer who checked plate numbers will be able to testify that his truck was back at the clubhouse and not near 1211 TTL when he ran the tag?
Or do we hear him getting out of the truck at the clubhouse on the phone call, but after the phone call he went back and moved the truck closer to the T?
unitron
According to his statements, they were by the clubhouse, and that was also the address he gave to dispatch
He also told them he was by the clubhouse and mailboxes, and his words were if you just pass the mailbox, you will see his truck, which is by the mailbox area
I do not know the exact point and am not sure which officer’s report you were speaking of, because even by the dispatch call, the detectives thought, even on re-enactment day, that he got out at the clubhouse, as those were his statements on the NEN call
Bottom line, his contradiction, equates a lie, and makes his story not credible, since he contradicts himself
The GPS records with the NEN call can give a fairly approximate value of where he was parked and by using his statements
His own statements bury him
Jun- I think people are putting too much faith into the GPS records. Reminds he of the “ping logs” fiasco. I just don’t think that anybody had anything that could lo-jack them with any accuracy.
Sent from my iPod
The GPS records are a goldmine for the simple fact, it proves the defendant is lying because it is going show contradictory to what the defendant claims the victim was in conjunction with him during his “re-enactment”
(1) It will show no circling
(2) When the defendant claimed the victim was circling his car and the time, I bet it will show that the victim was going to be by the clubhouse, at the mailboxes, approximately
They can line up the NEN call with the GPS records to get a picture of where both Fogen and Trayvon were, practically by the second
They will also line up to when Trayvon ran and Fogen got out of his car
He did not leave the truck immediately after the “coming to check me out”.
The mailboxes are on the western end of the east-west section of TTL. Anyone at the mailboxes can “see my truck” if it is anywhere on that section, including down at the bend where he said he parked it in the re-enactment.
For Singleton he marked a position near the mailboxes, then crossed it out and marked closer to the bend. That position is where he said the circling took place.
That is also where he would have started running after Trayvon.
GPS??
IF there is GPS for BOTH phones, that pretty much settles the entire case. IF there is GPS, which we have not been told.
If there is only for Trayvon’s phone, that might only show that he never went up to the T where GZ claims he was attacked. And where Trayvon was at the times GZ says certain things about him on the NEN call.
If there is GPS for both phones, that would show the paths both took, and establish who was searching for whom.
fauxmccoy says:
March 13, 2013 at 10:49 am
ahhh, so my perception based on my grandparents’ usage was not far off. good to know.
You were spot on.
I hadnt read your comment or I wouldve only remarked you where correct.
it took me much longer to figure out what they meant by ‘put a jumper on!’ … to me, that was a prissy, pinafore such as dorothy would wear in wizard of oz. now i ken, of course. 😉
SearchingMind says:
March 13, 2013 at 5:42 am
Law of diminishing return
Our civilization has long reached its peak and is now in decline. Who could have imagined that one day the public would start feeding- or be made to feed like animals (no offense meant to animals). I think that the genius behind this initiative ought to see a psychiatrist.
@
Thing is we are animals an we have been born into a false enviroment for eons.
A Horse would never wear a nosh or nosebag in nature.
Anymore so than we would walk into a supermarket an buy processes food..
Or stroll into a M cDonalds an order a burger.
No we would forage for roots an berried an fruits when in season.
Collect edible roots an fruits hunt for game.
All we see about us an the strange ways of people en mass
Started when someone probably spotted seeds sprouting from poo
Near where waste was dumped .
An the concept of growing ones own crops became a reality.
Farming an husbandry of animals began settlement sprung up.
An our natural way of life hunting gathering more or less vanished.
That was our natural life style.
An its quite fitting that this thing we call civilisation probably sprang from a peice of shite.
Humans were never meant to congrigate in such vast numbers an live cheek by jowl with millions of otheres.
As we see in our moderm citys.
Experiments done with rats an artificuall overflowing there breeding numbers within a confined space shows disastoutous results.
Normal number rats liveing with enough personal space no problemo.
Remember allthough they increase the population.
At no time do they give the rats less food only less space.
Long story short by the time they have colonays of lad rats liveing in extremis over crowding.
Rats start murdering each other Mothers kill an canibilise there own babys.30 percent of male rats become oversexed an start to swing both ways bi.
An its not exactly a exact anagram of humans society but its within the realms of what I see an hear on a daily basis.
People are going nuts or are born that way for whatever reasons.
PS Im in no way trying to suggest that being Bi or Gay or neither is an abberation either.
Live an let is my motto to each there own.
As long as it doesnt hurt anyone whos buisness is it certainly not mine.
.
dear god, man, i do hope you are being paid well somewhere for your brilliance in phiolosphy.
Orlando Sentinel wins top national award for series on Trayvon Martin shooting death
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/features/os-orlando-sentinel-asne-trayvon-martin,0,6274787.story
The Orlando Sentinel has earned a first-place award from the American Society of News Editors (ASNE) for stories from its In the Shadow of Race series about the aftermath of Trayvon Martin’s shooting death, according to an announcement made this morning.
Reporters Martin Comas, Kate Santich and Arelis Hernandez won The Freedom Forum/ASNE First-Place Award for Distinguished Writing on Diversity. Photography was by Gary Green and videos were by Green and Sean Pitts. The series was edited by Kim Marcum and Sal Recchi with photography editor Cassie Armstrong. Interactive content and print design were produced by Todd Stewart.
According to the judges: “Their multi-platform series not only tackles the history of race relations, but also delves into the complexity of ethnicity and race in order to shatter stereotypical myths. The reporters and editors accomplished this under tough conditions — a tragic shooting that went viral internationally.”
Finalists in this category were The Washington Post and Argus (S.D.) Leader Media.
interesting … i guess. i notice stutzman received no honorable mention 😉
I noticed it too. 😉
@SG2 and Faux, The Fogen groupie didn’t deserve to receive “ANYTHING” because, IMO a person in her chosen field should never at anytime be biased in their reporting and, showing it as well. she like Joe Oliver has been called out on her biased reporting of this case, on the very same show as Joe was called out on.
She acts as if she has a dog in this fight and, I guess we can all deduce that Fogen is her dog. as for me myself, I can’t stand the sight of her or her dog.
That’s okay, these fools haven’t been following the case well enough to realize that GZ is so incredibly toxic, that he utterly destroys anyone who takes his side. Expect Knox, Pipitone and Stutzman to to tragically have their careers go up in smoke as their reputations go down in flames, when they assert something as fact, only to have GZ himself repudiate them. Or, they simply fall to some other exotic twist that fate has been known to take.
I understand people saying Fogen is a smooth talker and manipulative. Maybe because I’ve dealt with so many people in my life, but he never fooled me. From day 1 I could read what a bull shit artist he is. There is a huge difference between a bull shit artist and a smooth talker.
A smooth talker may be able to “..sell ice to Eskimos..” but a bull shit artist winds up facing 2nd degree murder charges, has an inept lawyer, friends like Taaffe, and a wife like SheLie…..oh and a story so full of holes, LLMPapa may never find an end to good material.
A bull shit artist only Phooles…..well other Phooles.
Stutzman does not have a dog in this fight.
She DOES have a cat in this fight.
Fogen is not smooth. He is just a sociopath and robotic so he can lie to people with no emotion. However, I do not buy his pokerface
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ken
leander22 says:
March 13, 2013 at 8:29 am
Ken what I mean. Wasn’t Ken know? That’s more close the the German languages; kennen in German. That’s the infinitive. I seem to vaguely remember that one.
Reply
Ken is old Scots still used daily by most Scots.
All Scots liveing there use it.
Ken means knowlage…
As in beyond mankinds Ken.
ahhh, so my perception based on my grandparents’ usage was not far off. good to know.
Actually, (and this was pointed out to me by a Korean man whose English only seemed poor) the “k” and “n”” in “know” give a nod to those ancient language connections, and he also pointed out that “recognize” also has those 2 sounds together (“g”+”n”) meaning “to know”, as well as “agnostic” meaning “not knowing”
Wow! Seems I missed a heck of an exciting discussion because I live on the west coast and it was way too early for me.
It’s probably just as well I did, I guess. But wow.
Good morning, Rachael — Your reference to Florida’s capacity for quarter-sized skeeters, ‘canes, and sinkholes brings to mind that Fogen may be the state’s biggest sinkhole of all.
And stinkhole.
Malisha — So do I. … And to prevent any end runs (however lame) from MOM on SYG, immunity, etc., hope, she’s gathering legal eagle expert input as she runs a tough courtroom on this case.
Too funny, faux and cielo!
😉 glad to provide some comic relief … but am always willing to listen if someone wants relief from the comic 🙂
Judge Nelson confidently said she could see to it that a fair jury was seated for the Zimmerman trial. I trust that woman.
i tend to trust her as well, malisha. she has not let me down to date. it is only an impartial jury that worries me.
Florida’s Lt. Gov. Jennifer Carroll — she’s black and attractive, if anybody cares — just quit amid a federal probe into an outfit she represented with ties to Internet cafes. That occurred when she was serving in the Florida House. Her letter: “Effective immediately, I hereby resign the Office of Lieutenant Governor of the State of Florida. It has been an honor to have served the State of Florida in this capacity.”
FDLE interviewed Carroll two days ago about her ties to Allied Veterans of the World. On Tuesday, the feds arrested honchos from the company along with a Jacksonville police union chief on racketeering charges.
Gov. Rick Scott — white and bald, if anybody cares — is also believed by many to be a crook, given his background as CEO for a company swindling Medicare.
Redneck Republican north Florida voted him into office over Alex Sink, a Democrat and reputable female banker — misogyny in action.
South Florida remains incensed, and his chances for re-election are iffy at best. About the most popular thing he’s done with both ends of the state is appoint Corey as a special prosecutor in Trayvon’s murder . Just sayin’
TI- and yet they will take down a corrupt Detroit mayor (coincidentally who is black) but won’t touch this good ol’ boy governor? It’s not misogyny so much as red vs blue, DEM vs GOP. Florida has always been a stronghold for the GOP, ever since it helped GW Bush steal the election. Noticed how they got “punished” with four hurricanes that year? 😉
Sent from my iPod
Actually, Florida got slammed with five hurricanes in 2005!
Must have been that butterfly ballot problem in Palm Beach County.
Yet Florida went for Obama in ’08 and ’12 — courtesy of heavy South Florida black and white turnout.
Am optimistic that demographics are changing enough in Seminole County to make seating a decent jury not that difficult.
TO- LOL! Those hanging chads can cause quite a breeze!
Sent from my iPod
dang! they hung poor chad too? was that a SYG case? 😉
Yeah, and now mosquitoes the size of a quarter may come to Florida this summer. Hurricanes, sinkholes, mosquitoes – and GZ.
http://www.11alive.com/news/article/282737/166/Mosquitoes-the-size-of-quarters-may-come-to-Florida
they lost any of my potential tourist dollars long ago. i used to have to make the occasional visit to family in miami, but they moved back to the rest of the clan in georgia several years ago. not that the poitical or racial situation is much better, but it does keep me out of florida.
Well you know fauxmccoy, the outhouse insists he was there too. In fact, they think he recorded the “fight” on his phone or a phone or something. But then, they also think one of the 2 (or is it 3 now) DeeDees egged Trayvon on so it is HER fault.
insists he (Chad)
@fauxmccoy
I’d love to go to Florida to sit in on the trial.
@SG – well, ya gotta point there 😉
SearchingMind wrote:
“At trial, two audio experts will testify that GZ said ‘fucking coons’.”
No, The only audio ‘experts’ the State has included in their witness lists so far are Tom Owen and Ed Primeau, the two guys contacted by the Orlando Sentinal for their story on the 911 call. Both of them were listed by the State in a supplemental category (“C” IIRC) that indicates they are not expected to testify at trial. Of the two, Owen has stated he thinks GZ said “punks.” I’m not sure Primeau has offered an opinion, but he just pulls his analyses out of his arse, and the State would be foolish to put him on the stand for any purpose.
diaryofasuccesfulloser wrote, referring to Owen:
“This …voice expert says that the screams for helps are 95 percent not GZ’s.”
No. He said the screams were a 50% match to GZ’s voice on the NEN call, and that his software would register a correct match as at least 95%. Here the numbers 50% and 95% don’t represent any real world comparison, like ‘it’s a 50% chance the voice is Zimmerman’s” but merely the degree of similarity in two audio waveforms as analyzed by the parameters of his software. He claimed that a 50% match meant essentially 0% possibility the two samples came from the same voice.
This finding has been widely criticized for it’s lack of scientific rigor, including the comments by a former FBI analyst that the recording quality of the 911 call is too poor to make any valid assessment of who was screaming.
I think the FBI guy is wrong, but an audio expert would have to bring a lot more to the table than Owen has shown to make a voice ID of the screams that would hold up under cross.
As far as ‘punks’ and ‘coons’ goes, _I_ could show that it was definitely not the former, and almost certainly the latter, using my phonetic breakdowns and waveform comparisons and what not. (I’d certainly do a scientifically valid job on that word ID than Owen did). But Angela Corey hasn’t called me yet, and I’m not holding my breath waiting by the phone. 🙂
Thanks Whonze for the reference to the witness list. I am puzzled as to why the only audio-experts in this case are listed as ‘Category C witness’. Category C witnesses are those who performed only ministerial functions, or are those the prosecution does not intend to call at trial and whose involvement with, and knowledge of the case is fully set out in a police report or other statement furnished to the defense. Furthermore, these witnesses will not be subject to depositions at all unless the Court finds they should have been listed as an “A” or “B” witness.
If no audio expert would be testifying for the prosecution, one would be left to conclude – at least for now – that the prosecution has decided:
(a) that the words: “fucking punks” and “these assholes” (and any other info they may have gleaned from the 911-tape) are enough to prove what needs to be proven within the ambits of 2nd degree murder indictment and that whether or not GZ said “fucking coons” is irrelevant in getting the job done (how else would the prosecution introduce the “fucking-coons-evidence” without an audio expert?).
(b) the prosecution has alternative means to beyond reasonable doubt exclude GZ as the one howling and screaming for help on the 911-tape. I do not think that it would be wise to entirely depend on the testimonies of Ms. Fulton and Mr. Traycy Martin ALONE in this regard, because GZ’s parents are going to claim that it was GZ screaming and that might be enough to raise doubt in the mind of at least one juror.
The suspense in this case keeps on building.
@SearchingMind. The State is not prosecuting GZ for a racial hate crime. That is a federal offense. They are not determining whether GZ said “coon” and the charging affidavit says that GZ said “funking punks.”
The FBI has the tape of the 911 call that captured the screams and have no doubt enhanced it by now, which is why BDLR stated in court that there are two voices on that tape. GZ is heard in the background cursing at Trayvon while Trayvon is screaming in pain, fear, and for help.
@ Xena
If GZ uttered the words “fucking coons” and prosecutors have evidence to that effect, it will certainly be perjurous to state in an affidavit that GZ said “fucking punks”. The fact that “fucking punks” is stated in quotation marks in that affidavit does not make it any different, IMO.
If GZ uttered the words “fucking coons” and prosecutors have evidence to that effect, prosecutors have an imperative obligation to base the prosecution on that fact (i.e. “fucking coons”) and not on a fiction (i.e. “fucking punks”). In this context, it is utterly irrelevant whether or not GZ is being charged with a hate-crime. It’s about basing criminal prosecution on proper evidence – i.e. that which in truth transpired.
@SearchingMind. The States do not have jurisdiction to prosecute federal offenses. Prosecutors took GZ at his word that he said “punks.” Had GZ admitted to saying “coons,” then his behind would be under the jurisdiction of the federal court to prosecute.
But that’s the beauty of the defenses dilemma, they can’t put on anyone who, to seem credible, would have to testify to the character of GZ. Now, could you imagine GZ’s parents taking the stand and on cross, having to avoid saying anything that goes to GZ’s character? That would appear extraordinarily remarkable to the jury.
SP: Would you say that GZ is a find upstanding citizen?
RZ: I, I, errrr, I don’t know.
SP: Well, would you say that he’s a pillar of the community?
RZ: Errrr… I’ve never thought of him in those terms.
SP: Can you say something nice about his character?
RZ: I don’t think I would do that right now.
SP: …A good husband perhaps?
RZ: You’d have to ask his wife that question.
SP: A fine student?
RZ; That would be a question for his instructors.
SP: Is it not a fact that there is nothing good you can say about GZ?
RZ: Oh that’s not true at all!
SP: Then, do tell us what you can say good about GZ?
RZ: There’s plenty of good things I can say about him, I just can’t think of any now.
(Jurors eyes widening as saucers)
You see, once someone gives GZ a character reference a whole slew of impeachment evidence come in like a tsunami.
MOM has to be careful to put on witnesses, and advise them not to say certain things, to prevent doors to impeachment materials from opening and allowing it to come flooding in.
A thankless job to be sure, but GZ isn’t the only one MOM has to try to keep off the stand. Since any one of the defenses witnesses can do the same damaging door opening that GZ can do.
The SP has listed certain witnesses as class C witnesses, because they don’t expect that the testimony of these witnesses to be pivotal. Of course, testimony taken at trial can cause any of those witnesses status to change. So, as defense witnesses take the stand and open various doors, more and more SP’s witnesses become ever more relevant and even critical. So, GZ is toast.
Hoodies UP!!!
|||=> Tick Tock! <-|||
@ lonnie — bravo! bravo!!
Lonnie steps to the podium, graciously says “Thank you” and humbly takes a bow. [lights lower exit stage left]
And those of us in the audience will continue to cheer loudly !!
@ Xena
You don’t understand. And you won’t understand. The fact that you talk about “jurisdiction” and (be it unconsciously) the principle of supremacy in this context, says as much.
Besides, your argument does not make sense. For, if you were to be right, it must follow that if GZ had claimed that he said “fucking cold” or “fucking gold”, the state must also take him at his word. If such would not be the case, why not? Would the state then be forced to find out exactly what GZ said – IRRESPECTIVE of whether or not whatever GZ actually said could ALSO constitute a “federal crime”? And, if the state would not be obliged to find out exactly what GZ uttered on the NEN- (and the 911-) recording(s), how exactly is the state able to prove 2nd degree murder (in the absence of the evidence we still do not know of and in the absence of other inaudible contents of the NEN- and the 911-tapes).
Sometimes, it’s better to argue things one really has an educated knowledge of (and I mean formal education – as in JD and/or LL.M).
@SearchingMind. Racial hate-crime is a violation of federal law, under federal jurisdiction to prosecute. You are posting your argument on Frederick Leatherman’s Law Blog, so why not ask Leatherman?
@ Xena
You still continue to miss the point!
Besides, I hold an LL.M degree. That will answer the rest of your questions.
@SearchingMind
You didn’t make a point. You asked a question. I answered. The answer is the same; i.e., racial hate crime is a violation of federal law under federal jurisdiction.
@SearchingMind
I don’t have any questions concerning you, nor have asked you any.
@ Xena
No question was asked. A point was made which you don’t and won’t understand no matter how often made. Good to know that you at least understand that “racial hate crimes fall under federal jurisdiction”. However, the question that gave rise to that WONDERFUL answer of yours, is non-existent (the question was never asked and you may need to read carefully before you answer). IF GZ uttered the words “fucking coons” and prosecutors have clear evidence of that, they are obliged to use that evidence to charge GZ for 2nd degree murder (not hate crime) under state law and are not allowed to substitute that evidence with something else they know is a fiction (i.e. “fucking punks”/ “fucking cold”/ “fucking gold”, etc.). Whether or not whatever GZ said/did ALSO constitutes a federal offence (hate crime) falls beyond the scope of my comment. As such, the question of jurisdiction and supremacy does not even arise within the context of my post. At this point, I consider communication with you non-productive and would request you not to direct comments to me anymore.
@SearchingMind
The charging information includes that GZ wrongfully profiled Trayvon. Have you read it?
@ Xena
The more you talk, the mor you manifest lack of coherent rational thought process. What has the two segments of your post to do (a) with each other and (b) with the rest of the post. It seems you are aimlessly all over the map. Again, I request you to stop addressing comments to me. Period.
Searching Mind- maybe you should stop acting like a petulant child. This is an adult blog. Drop the issue already and move on. Nobody has any business giving a performance review to anybody else here. I’m quickly losing respect for your opinions if you are so easily swayed by emotions which are far more illogical than faith any day.
Sent from my iPod
@SearchingMind. You don’t get to lie about me to others here and expect for me not to correct you. Maybe your intent is to entertain Zidiots. That’s not impressive at all since even Big Bird is entertaining to them.
Text book !!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
X2
Even tho I’m not a zimbot…………I like Grover 🙂
I hear ya……Grover’s cool.
I think Diary-of-a-successful-loser is correct. His/her statement is based on what Ed Primeau said (he/she may have confused Owen with Primeau), while yours is based on the analysis of Tom Owen. Both Primeau and Owen used the 95% word but in two distinctive ways. They both also attached two different meanings to their respective version of the 95%.
Ed Primeau said that he is (a) convinced that the screaming voice on the 911-tape is that of a young man, (b) that there is a huge chance that it was not GZ screaming, (c) that he is willing to put his reputation on the line and state that it was not GZ screaming, (d) that there a 95% chance that it was not GZ screaming (and by necessity 5% chance that it was GZ screaming).
i disagree……think of it this way 2 males both with very deep voices will share MANY tonal qualities and their voice graph will match maybe even more than 50%, MOST all deep voices will share common points on a tonal graph that is to be expected…..and that is why you need a 95% match to claim it is the same voice, again because all deep voices share points on the graph, but that area above 50% is where the small variances in the tones show up and the sharing of points on the graph ends and the differences start showing up.
his concept is VERY sound science.
another way to look at what his software does….take baseball players swinging at the ball, they almost have starts with both feet on the ground, both hands on the bat, head facing the pitcher, stride into the ball, and use their wrists during the swing, and follow through with their swing……BUT some are left handed and some a right so that single thing can exclude many of the players in question when trying to match 2 swings as being the same player, the known player is right handed so all leftys get excluded, some dont take a stride into the swing, that excludes more and so on the various differences drop them out one by one until only one swing matches.
my point is excluding that it could NOT have been fogen crying out for help is EASY, but matching saying it was is VERY difficult.
also simple common sense says it could NOT possibly have been fogen because for almost 45 seconds the cries for help go on and NO sounds of any fighting can be heard…so clearly during that last 45 seconds the person with the gun would NOT be crying out in sheer terror that is plainly heard on the tape.
I don’t need the FBI or a computer program to tell me who was screaming. I know a teenagers voice when i hear it and so should everyone else.
beyond that, what are the chances of the gunman begging ‘mammaaaaa’.
@kllypyn
Exactly!
@ Kelly, Fauxy
It’s not about our subjective beliefs. It’s about what jurors will believe. Unfortunately we have no control over who will (not) be on the jury. But we (read prosecutors) can control the outcome of the game – by meeting all the requirements before the game even starts. Good attorneys pre-determine the outcome of litigations and live nothing to chance. They do so by putting together the necessary instruments to getting the job done, visualizing the ultimate worst case scenario and finding evidence to defeat that scenario before even filling any documents. That how you build an air-tight case. Within the context of your posts, that would mean using verifiable/scientific means to (a) establish that it was Trayvon screaming on that tape, or (b) exclude that it was GZ screaming. They can accomplish this by using the reasonable man test. Assuming GZ, could be heard on the 911-recording interrogating Trayvon and/or saying something to the effect of ‘don’t move, stay down’, etc., the reasonable man’s test will with 100% certainty exclude GZ as the screamer. That will also mean the end of his self-defense claim. This kind of objective/verifiable evidence is what is needed to knock GZ out. Asking jurors to listen and decide for themselves would be taking a huge, irresponsible gamble. The fact that Trayvon was Black also worries me and is a factor to be reckoned with. That’s the reason why this case must be air-tight. If not, we better start reciting ‘Ave Maria gracia plena, dominus tecum .….”, because we may indeed need the help of her Majesty, the Mother of God (ha! Isn’t religion soooo beautiful?).
Searching Mind- and you know it Latin, too! An aside, is the scream tape more important than the ballistics? As for airtight, you can’t fudge that straight into the heart angle.
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Cielo, I have constantly stated that ballistic evidence is the ONE single most important evidence in this case. IOWs: The King. My comment above was confined to the context of the discussion (as I also stated). We were not talking about other things.
Sidebar, there are a lot of pieces of evidence in this case. All of them will have to come together to form one indivisible body of evidence (i.e. air-tight). It can, and will be done in this case. The dots do indeed conect. And those dots do not relay different plausible alternatives.
Off-topic. Just a hint: they who make the most fun of religion are usually the most religious of all and solidly grounded in epistemology, (moral) theology, exegesis, religious doctrines, etc. They who are all too eager to bear the Cross in pursuit of others (no matter how evil thoese others might be) usually have no fundamental understanding of what they believe in. They might use jargons such as spirituality, yada, yada, yada, etc. but it changes not the fact that they are essentially empty drums (forgive me for my arrogance).
Says the empty head.
Sent from my iPod
@ Cielo,
Is that all you got? It seems you have difficulty expressing yourself. Hence you resort to short outbursts of insults.
SM- well I do like to keep posts short. Would you rather I dissect your shortcomings with my Masters degree in Philosophy and my BA in Comparative Religious Studies? It’s not like you don’t provide a treasure trove of material. Is it too much to ask that you bring your massive legal brain to bear on this case or has insulting Xena and others become your new goal?
Sent from my iPod
New subpoena for DeeDee’s medical records?
I am thinking that O’Mara and West will be deposing DeeDee this month (if they have not done that yet) and then announce to world yet another phony bombshell that came to light during that deposition. I am thinking that they will accomplish that by filing another phony Motion to issue subpoena for DeeDee’s medical records based on information DeeDee provides them during the deposition and the worst possible interpretation of that information. This way O’Mara and West will continue the demonization of DeeDee, provide some really very fresh red meat to the supporters in an effort to “vigorously energize the defense fund” and continue to poison the jury-pool.
Crump should help her get a lawyer
Fogen is an evil person and he is desperate, so we dont know what he will do
jun, i have no doubt that crump gave deedee’s family a darn good recommendation for a lawyer. it is in his best interest to do so and he is not a stupid man. he cannot represent her himself, of course, but there is no doubt that she and her testimony are important to the martin family. the fact that she has been thoroughly insulated so far is a strong indication that she has good representation.
I could be mistaken but I am sure I read DeeDee has an attorney.
@Jun, indeed Fogen is *EVIL TO THE CORE* and you can see it in his photo of him which was used here, showing Fogen as a kid. just look into his eyes and also that sly grin on his face. IMO when we look at that photo, with his eyes which shows that he is a very devious person and, he has no soul. I hope he rots in Prison and when it’s time for him to die, may he nasty away and linger for a long time in pain.
DeeDee should refuse to answer any questions that relate to anything she did AFTER 2/26/2012, saying that she refuses to answer on the grounds that they may incriminate her, because media has already suggested that her whereabouts on a day AFTER the 2/26/2012 event she witnessed should cause her to be charged with perjury. She has a perfect right to NOT answer questions concerning her conduct after the date of the crime being investigated. Let them take THAT to Judge Nelson and ask for a ruling or a motion to compel her answers; ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! It wouldn’t take a whole lawyer to advise her of that; but at any rate, the NAACP Legal Defense Fund should help her get good representation, at least as good as Serino got before HIS deposition, in the person of Jose Baez.
Malisha, Dee Dee has no right to take the 5th, why should she be worried about incriminating herself when she has done nothing wrong? As Prof has written, the issue can not be called perjury, even had she lied.
I think it’s all in Prof’s articles about perjury and Dee Dee. Sorry I can’t quote it, but know there’s a definition of perjury that is not simply any ‘lie’.
Anyone can take the Fifth ANYTIME because nobody is required to give evidence against himself/herself. All I was suggesting was that she use that Constitutional right to prevent any questions involving anything taking place AFTER the murder; none of that is anybody’s business. Of course, if she were to take the Fifth, the question would go to the judge to rule on, whether or not the questions were permitted, and what could or could not be inferred from her response or lack of response. I’m sure that if there is a trial she will have her own attorney with her at that time. Pretty obvious that she will need one.
I agree lying is not perjury and I agree she didn’t lie and I agree this is a non-issue; she can USE all this hoopla, however, to say, “I have a right not to answer questions that are going to be used against me in any fashion. I was a witness to a murder and that does not make me a defendant in this or any other case.”
I did not see any reference to Deedee’s age in either of the interviews. So does this mean that she said something incorrect about her age outside of the interviews? So what, if she did.
.
Can you imagine, that, if this has a bearing on the truth of her statements in the interviews or her court testimony, what this would mean to all the past court case in our country?
.
Would this mean that, if any witness in a past case had lied about his/her age outside of court, then all of that witness’s testimony should be thrown out and there should be a retrial?
.
Same for any past witness who, in an interview, was vague about not being able to participate in some activity (not having to do with the case) because that person had a headache or was at the doctor’s?
To SearchingMind Do you know if fogen’s lawyers have information about witnesses does fogen also have it. That’s what scares me.And is BDLR at Omara’s deposition of DeeDee.
I Love you Too…Thank you
“But toting the Bible around and pontificating based on one’s faith strikes me as presumptuous, arrogant, insensitive and sanctimonious (all of which have no value whatsoever).”
This statement right here is just ugly, like you kicked me out of your lil club…with tones of being a bullie based on your disagreeing with others.
“We don’t need us to do that” you stole this from the nen dispatcher and re-worded it.
“Law and Religion/Faith are like water and oil. They do not mix.”
You are all over the place with this one…
Your money says in GOD we trust
The law says you must pay for anything you buy with Gods trusted money
Pay taxes to the government with Gods trusted money
Religion says you should pay tithes and offerings based on your faith, with Gods trusted money.
you are baptized in water, blessed with oil, If you seek or believe
And when a mix is forced, you get disaster. The strength of this blog is and has always been rooted in the almost all encompassing knowledge of the issues involved-, the ferocious rational thought process- and the formidable analytical power of ALL the contributors here under the guidance and leadership of the Professor.
There has been no forcing of any mixture and the only disaster i can see is this statement right here.
“The strength of this blog is and has always been rooted in the almost all encompassing knowledge of the issues involved-, the ferocious rational thought process- and the formidable analytical power of ALL the contributors here under the guidance and leadership of the Professor.”
Although the professor has good Guidance and Leadership, he is still a man guided by a higher being. He is not all knowing and all telling.
Professor I mean you no disrespect in my statement…but you put your pants on the same way everbody else does one leg at a time. You are still learning and growing like the rest of us. Your knowledge is frutiful to us all, and your giving is not selfish.
I’ve learned this lesson the long and hard way…My faith is not based on the elevation of any man or woman standing in the pulpit, in front of a class, on a judges bench, or sitting in the Presidents seat.
MY faith and Belief is in GOD.
A man and a woman will make mistakes and wrong choices, lead you down paths that will ruin your life, if you allow them to.
There is not a word written by man that is all knowing and all telling, if it were, there would be no misunderstanding of the SYG laws…
This is a forum where there is an exchange of opinions and ideas of the given information surrounding this case; where sometimes emotions and feels are exposed out of love and true care for the death of a soul.. For me the Professor is a vessel of knowledge to assist in my understanding and growth. Not because i have a desire to serve him as a sanctimonious follower or servant.
and in conclusion to your statement of:
“I hope folks would leave their religion/faith/bible/prophesy behind within the confines of their hearts and homes.”
You may try typing your rants in a word folder to yourself for future reference too.. using your re-wording of the NEN dispatcher “We don’t need us to do that”. Enjoy your day Searchingminds…SMILE and be Pleasant…
Romaine, I think I understand you very well. I concede and apologize. Let’s move on. I love ya.
@Romaine & LLMPapa
I loved the video. It touched my soul and brought me to tears. The words were powerful. I could go on and say they would have have no power unless given by God…but I won’t say it. 🙂
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! To your tents, Oh Israel, for the anger of the Lord is upon you. Hallelujah.
You are not mocking her, are you??!!!
Yes! I’d expect it from CTH. But his/her insults doesn’t bother me.
Searchingmind Your response is why i had second thoughts of posting what I felt, and I feel good about the post. I can’t be ashamed because i share the way I feel differently than others. Yes I do believe in GOD and I love the GOD I serve. No I am not a bible toting christian and if I were I would not be ashamed of being one, since that would be my choice. as for changing The professors forum, I would never think to be so rude and disrespectful to him or any of you. I know there are many who believe in many different ways, yet I don’t judge anyone based on what they believe nor do I challenge those who chose not to believe. If you believe the law of man is what drives our society alone, i’ll ask why are we sworn in with the statement of do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and and nothing but the truth so help you GOD? If GOD is not in it why use his name to bind anyones telling of the truth. either way my purpose was not to have church, is was how I felt. If you find offense in my post so be it. I don’t agree with yours either.
Just an FYI…
This country was founded on God.
“In God We Trust” is inscribed on all of our currency.
Luckily, imo, it has remained there since George Washington.
“Laus Deo”
On the aluminum cap on top of the Washington Monument in Washington, DC are displayed two words: “Laus Deo.” Standing in front of this monument you are unable to see these words-most visitors are totally unaware they are even there-but these words have been there for years. They are 555 feet by 5.125 inches high. They face skyward to the true Father of our Nation, overlooking the 69 square miles which comprise the District of Columbia and the Capital of the United States of America.
“Laus Deo!” Two words inscribed in a place where no passerby can read them. They are positioned in a very meaningful place at the highest point over what is the most powerful city of the most successful nation in the world.
What do these two small, Latin words mean?
“Praise be to God”
Construction began in 1848 when James Polk was POTUS.
In 1888 the monument was inaugurated and opened to the public.
It took 25 years to finally cap the memorial with a tribute to the true Father of our Nation.
From atop of this magnificent granite and marble structure visitors may take in the beautiful panoramic view of the city with its four major divisions. From that vantage point, one can also see the original plan of the designer. Pierre Charles I’Enfant:
a perfect cross with the White House to the North, Jefferson Memorial to the South, the Capital to the East, and the Lincoln Memorial to the West.
A cross you might ask? Why a cross?
What about separation of church and state?
Yes, the layout of the central governing district of our nation is in the shape of a cross. Separation of church and state was not, and is not, in the Constitution. This was intended to carry a profound meaning to those who bothered to notice. “Praise be to God!”
Within the Monument are 898 steps and 50 landings. On the 12th landing is a prayer offered by the City of Baltimore; on the 20th is a memorial presented by a group of Chinese Christians; on the 24th is a presentation made by Sunday School children from NY and Philadelphia. (I won’t put the Bible verses here for space)
In addition to these Biblical messages, the cornerstone of the Washington Monument, which was laid on July 4, 1848 holds a Holy Bible presented to Congress by the Bible Society as a symbol of God’s Word being a cornerstone of our GOVERNMENT.
Such was the discipline, the moral direction, and the spiritual mood given by the founder and first President of our unique democracy that is still summed up on every piece of American currency: “In God We Trust”
You may forget the words Laus Deo, their location, or the architects who masterminded the Washigton Monument, but no one who reads this should forget their meaning-“Praise be to God” or the verse found in Psalm 127.1 NIV “Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain.”
Sorry for the long post, but it is history. Did you ever learn this in school? Probably not, because those in our government felt it was “too Godly” or ‘separation of church and state.’ What a shame. IMO, this country has only prospered as it has, because its foundation was build on Godly principals.
I do not feel I should have to apologize to anyone but the Professor, because this is his blog, so I’m sorry Professor, I just couldn’t help myself! Although if I did offend anyone, I apologize.
I staunchly support separation of church and state. Unless you are a member if a religious minority, you have no idea the fear that “we live in a Christian country” gives me. As for “godly principals” the foundations for a just and stable society were codified thousands if years before Christianity showed up in the code of Hammurabi in ancient Sumer. Washington DC is laid out as a pentagram. The ” perfect cross” is for the four cardinal directions since the founding fathers were all Masons. Christians don’t have a patent on virtues or justice. I’m glad we’ve moved beyond the bible since it allowed slavery and subjugation of women. That also is history. And I feel we need too be moving on from this topic. For whatever we believe, we do all agree that we’re here for justice for Trayvonn.
Sent from my iPod
The history of “In god we trust” on American coinage……This did not start until after the civil war….and not on all currency at the time.
http://www.treasury.gov/about/education/Pages/in-god-we-trust.aspx
Those who don’t study history are condemned to repeating mangled versions of it. 🙂
Sent from my iPod
Not to mention that the addition to the Pledge of Allegience (a bit of a johnnie come lately itself) of “under God” didn’t happen until the McCarthy era red scare.
As for the founding of the nation, Thomas Jefferson was certainly in a position to know about that, and it was from his letter of re-assurance to the Baptists of Danbury that we get the phase “…a wall of separation between Church and State.”
I really like Thomas Jefferson. He even owned a copy of the Koran.
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X2…….Jefferson & Thomas Paine….both very wise men.
It is a bit sad and ironic that the addition of “Under G-d” to the Pledge of Allegiance has served to undermine “Indivisible” which follows.
Cercando Luce- my best friend, an Orthodox Jew, does that little thing you do with G-d. And yes, it’s very ironic how one small phrase can kick up so much dust. But that was the point, though, right? To divide us from the Communists.
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Yeah but too bad the dividing didn’t stop there. So, now that the commies are gone, it just keeps on dividing and dividing us along the various lines of religious beliefs. Because it makes religion a matter of state.
Lonnie- and to think that separation of church and state was to protect the church FROM government. Now it’s to protect everyone from religious extremists! Like I said, only a member of a religious minority can understand the fear that government sanctioned religion can cause.
Sent from my iPod
In general the public, people not willing or able to look at the deeper implications of religion, cannot see why religion must either be kept separate from the powers of state government or the populace will experience terrible tragedy and deaths. How can this be from such “true and just” religions that seek only to peacefully aide and assist our fellow souls?
The secret is in the “absolutism” of faith needed to adhere to the teachings. When directed by a “supreme being(s)” the options for failures and for “others” are few and extreme. Thus, as anyone who has watched the Neo Conservatives over the last few decades, you can see that for the strongest believers and leadership of various religions, success at gaining control of or even influencing the state, becomes a mandate to do even more. For the true believer has no choice but to “save” all those he possibly can. Obviously then, those who cannot or will not be “saved” are probably minions from hell. They must be smitten
Nor does it matter that a peaceful religion be allowed to meld with government, because that permits other “stronger” religions to compete for this prize. Naturally, the winner will be the one that pursues victory most tenaciously and with vigor. Unfortunately once power is obtained, plans must be laid for it to be kept. So, even if we were lucky enough to get a generation of peaceful rule, we’d be lucky. As soon as someone with more paranoid views took power, they’d have the absolutism of the gods to excuse the dispatch of their opposition.
That is the way it has always worked and that is the way it will always work. Do not be fooled by the immediate peaceful nature of “the beast” today, but pay careful attention to how it will be expected to evolve.
Lonnie~ I agree. Religion and power are deeply intertwined. While I’m happy for the Catholic Church to have a new Pontiff, don’t be fooled by his simple persona. One doesn’t get to be a Cardinal by being a nice guy. Francis is no doubt politically savvy. The question is whether he will use his power to unite or create more friction.
“…and to think that separation of church and state was to protect the church FROM government.”
It was to protect each from the other and the populace from the combined might of both.
The founders were well aware of England’s bloody history of transitioning from the Catholic church to the Church of England and back again a time or two, including the Cromwell period, and what happens to those who differ in views from both of those Churces, and didn’t want any part of it.
unitron
Unitron~ Yup. I was raised Roman Catholic and in the state of Maryland, so I was taught that Maryland was the only state (for awhile) that permitted Catholics to live there. That separation of Church and State was pure genius.
Just as you say the members of minority religions are the first to experience the fear. However, members of the largest religions, who know the history of progressive concentration of power, also know that they too have a terrible burden of fear to carry.
Firstly, does anyone here know which religion is the largest? Probably not, few if any ever bother to look it up. Yet, many people are comforted by the slogan that America is a Christian Nation, because they believe that as Christians they are members of the largest religion, Not realizing how many different “Christian Religions” there are. Only after the wall between church and state is gone, would they discover how big or small is the segment they belong to, believe me it will make a very big difference, as religions go, if only one word of your bible differs from theirs.
The most dangerous slogan today is “America is a Christian nation”, because this is the first step on the road to removing religious freedom from the land. The greatness of America lay not in it being a christian nation at all, but in the fact that there is religious freedom for all. Be a smart American and discourage the slogans that celebrate any one of Americas religious groups over any others. Instead insist that the correct approach is to express support for religious freedom.
Lonnie~ Believe me, fighting for the separation of church and state is a cause I support very strongly! It’s a constant battle inTexas because so many ignorant people, who are christian fundamentalists, want to tear down that wall. Thank GOD, we haven’t had to teach Creationist Theory! But to our shame, it comes up every year! These people are SO STUPID that they don’t know the definition of a scientific theory (as opposed to a hypothesis). And people then have the nerve to wonder WHY America ranks 17th or LOWER on international academic tests?
Well said….and a nice refresher course in history !! I, for one, am not offended.
Race….check my link upthread….”in god we trust” HAS NOT always been on our coins and currency…..it first started during the civil war…..many coins and bills did not have this even at the beginning of the 20th century.
Really……so my History teacher lied then with that “always” word.
Check the link……it’s from the Dept of the Treasury…..the ones that make our money…
Racer- up thread I posted my feelings. Lets just say Thomas Jefferson was a genius.
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My statement was incorrect, sorry for that.
Many times what is in my head doesn’t come across the same when I write it, revise it, or shorten it. What I meant was:
Luckily, imo, many of the Godly principals have remained since our founding fathers. George Washington, prayed for our nation.
(I had considered one of his prayers, then decided it would be too “preachy” here on this blog).
Many of our laws were based on Godly principals.
Thou shall not kill (murder), lie, (purgery), steal, etc.
Suprisingly, adultery is still a ‘crime’ in many states.
So even if you are “Godly” or not, these principals were the basis of many of our laws in this nation.
IMO, there is a huge difference between being religious, spiritual, Christian and Godly. Probably all best not discussed here, just interesting that many of our laws are based on Godly principals.
Yeah…..I like the “All men are created equal”……….that is until you became a slave………Don’t you find it odd that the same men who wrote the Declaration of Independence…..who invoked the name of god…..were themselves slave owners?
MMP- Dolly Madison ( the presidents wife and not the pastry company) was already doing her part to try and secure votes for women as well. Unfortunately, they emphasized the “men” part of being created equal, so women had to wait 200 years for voting rights.
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And still don’t have equal rights
Kimmi……Consider me a “Spiritual” person…..with leanings towards Eastern and Native American beliefs……
@cielo62
And the death penalty… IMO, a complete aberration of true Christian values.
Before men came over from the UK and other places in Europe who later became known as the “Founding Fathers,” there were Pilgrims who came to the New World for religious freedom. Eventually known as Quakers, their religious beliefs differed from those of other Christian denominations of that time They didn’t believe in slavery, and even ordained women as ministers.
It is said that Quakers founded the Underground Railroad.
Quakers have always been the epitome of Christianity to me. Southern baptists are the Sadducees and Pharisees of modern times.
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as a side note – we have had a quaker president, none other than richard m. nixon.
Faux McCoy- well THANKS for shattering my rose colored view of Quakers! LOL!
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irony at it’s best … or worst depending on how oe views the nixon presidency. it’s not a well known fact, but fact it is. it would consider it a stellar example for not judging an entire group based upon the actions of one – if there is a takeaway lesson in there.
Faux McCoy- well of course don’t I don’t judge the entire group based on one flawed individual. It just seemed the comical thing to say. The Quakers theology has always been amongst the most progressive I have ever read plus it’s emphasis on humility and service. Plus it’s history of selfless courage ie the Underground Railroad, will always earn my respect.
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cielo – please know that my comment about judigng a group based on actions of one was in no way intended for you personally.
it just struck me that there were parallels which could easily be drawn if we look at the situation objectively. yes, as a group, there are many characteristics of the quakers which are to be admired and plenty of reasons to loathe richard nixon, but he was not all bad.
the parallels would of course be along the lines of misguided thinking which dictates that all blacks are thugs and all muslims terrorists.
And all whites are racists……..
Faux McCoy- I get it now. 🙂 I don’t know anything about Nixon. I guess my brain has finally turned to mush.
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Interestingly, Nixon’s mom was Quaker and his father converted after marriage. Nixon’s entry in the military signifies that he did not adhere to Quaker beliefs. Dwight D. Eisenhower’s mom was a Jehovah’s Witness. Eisenhower did not join that religion. So, under Eisenhower, who rejected the religion of mom, we had Nixon serving as VP, who also did not adhere to the religion of his mom.
Xena- as big a deal as JFK’s Roman Catholicism was, as well as Romney’s Mormonism, I wonder why nobody cared about these guy’s religious backgrounds?
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@cielo62
Politics were different in the day of Eisenhower. Although there was much ado about JFK’s Roman Catholicism, Nixon lost to JFK. When Nixon ran for President again, the main concern for many Americans was ending the war in Viet Nam.
As far as Romney being Mormon, I read someone say that Christians supporting Romney hate Obama more than they love Jesus Christ.
the other notable difference in comparing denominations is that neither quakers nor jehova witnesses have the overwhelming power of central authority and let’s face it – cash – that both the roman catholic church and lds church do. for both jfk and romney, concern was expressed as to whether they would be able to put their church leader or the constitution foremost in their decision making.
@fauxmccoy. Jehovah’s Witnesses have a central authority which is the Watchtower Society. However, it would be pretty obvious that Eisenhower did not believe in that sect because he joined the military, and also entered politics. JWs do not join the military, neither do they vote.
Hitler found JWs defiant and placed them in concentration camps.
Faux McCoy~ I hadn’t thought about that. Both the RC Church and the Mormon Church are very powerful entities. I knew about the fear of the Pope taking over, but I hadn’t considered the same fear from the Mormon leadership. Hmm… something new to think about. Thanks!
Xena~ when one hates, one can make deals with the devil! Evangelists, meet Mitt Romney!
Because back then, while there was religious bias, it wasn’t as divisive an issue and people were actually trying to rise above it. The only real fear as far as Presidential elections went was, that a President might be hostage to his own religious beliefs and therefore make decisions for all, based on the teachings of his church’s leadership. The idea of separation of church and state, was strong enough to hold these issues in check. Thus, if one could only cite a religious objection to the candidate, that objection not only wouldn’t fly, but it would repel voters into the opposite camp.
Starting back in the 60’s and 70’s the GOP decided that they could make serious use of the votes that the churches held, so they began devising plans to capture that vote, no matter that the end result would be a religiously divided nation. A division that would come about as the largest churches gained the most political power, by being “closer to the throne” in republican administrations. Out of power the Republicans could treat all religious groups as equals, however, once in power, it became necessary to “play the numbers”. Thus the smaller fell to the bigger, while the weaker fell to the stronger and, of course, the most active and vocal “wheels” would get more “oil” than the more passive and quiet ones.
Each time the Republicans came to power, during Nixon, Reagan and Bush I, the churches were merely pushed to the rear, rather than played for their numbers. Bush II changed all that, he relied so heavily on the religious groups for the numbers they would provide, he couldn’t shake them or push them back, once he took office, thus he had to engage the numbers game, which in it’s turn, divided the once unified religious front he rode in on. We as a nation are still trying to put out those fires today.
People who recite the phrase “America is a Christian Nation”, perhaps do not realize it, but they are reigniting those same flames of religious division and at the same time, advocating for unifying church and state in ever growing ways. These people need to be reminded that America’s greatness does not derive from the provenance of any particular religion over another, but upon the right to religious freedom for all.
Because principals only work if they have the support of largest numbers of people, and all Americans should be supportive of religious freedom for all, because America’s unity requires it. Therefore, anyone who is for undermining the principle of separation of church and state is actually advocating for the dissolution of the unity in the United States of America. Please don’t fall for it! The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.
Lonnie- one would think that we have but to look at countries governed by Sharia law to realize that mixing church and state is a very bad idea. Dang, I drive, wear slacks, am outspoken and am gay to boot; I’d be dead 10 times over in a Muslim country!
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@Lonnie Starr
From time to time, I once received group emails in which the contents consisted of “They’ve taken the Bible out of schools,” “They’ve taken God out of …”
Needless to say, many have parted ways with me because they didn’t like my response. First, I learned right from wrong at home. I read the Bible at home and in Sunday School. So my response to those who argue that the government is removing God and Bible from things is that they should have the spiritual application of the teachings of Christ in their minds and hearts, and then don’t need the ink and paper.
@ciolo62
I agree.
There are Southern baptist who belong to one convention, and Southern baptists that are independent churches. The first “Christian” to accuse me of being a heretic and maliciously insulted me was a Southern Baptist minister of the Pharisee convention.
Xena……I was raised southern baptist………Ask again about me being an atheist? 🙂
MMP- so Southern Baptism can be cured, huh? 😉
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Baptized in no less than the Licking River….same water we drank…
BTW did I mention I’m a stamp collector…..born in Licking County? 🙂
MMP/ Licking County? Don’t stamps lose value when licked?
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Xena- heresy isn’t so bad. It’s like looking at a diamond’s multiple facets and asking which is the “true” face of the diamond.
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@cielo62. Re: heretics. I am reminded that Galileo was also called a heretic and imprisoned for believing that the earth is not flat.
“There are Southern baptist who belong to one convention, and Southern baptists that are independent churches. The first “Christian” to accuse me of being a heretic and maliciously insulted me was a Southern Baptist minister of the Pharisee convention.”
There is one Southern Baptist Convention (at least until the conservative takeover of it gets around to changing the name, i.e., “re-branding it”).
Most of the Baptist churches affiliated with it are in the Southern part of the continental United States, but by no means are all of them.
There are many other Baptist churches in the South which are otherwise affiliated or are unaffiliated.
unitron
westboro? 😦
“westboro? :(”
Affiliation, if any? No idea.
Arkham Asylum, maybe?
unitron
unitron~ ZING! Thats a good one! Too bad we can’t lock them back up in old Arkham…
I only speculated about affiliation, not from where they might have escaped.
unitron
@Xena
“Hitler found JWs defiant and placed them in concentration camps.”
Yes. Roughly 50% of German JWs ended up in concentration camps and 25% of them died there.
It seems that WE are gradually getting all religious these days – toting our “BIBLES” and beckoning on the Lord God to send justice in fire, thunder and lightning and let the earth open its mouth and swallow the enemy. I am sure We don’t need us to do that. Law and Religion/Faith are like water and oil. They do not mix. And when a mix is forced, you get disaster. The strength of this blog is and has always been rooted in the almost all encompassing knowledge of the issues involved-, the ferocious rational thought process- and the formidable analytical power of ALL the contributors here under the guidance and leadership of the Professor. I know that there are many people of faith here. I respect that. But toting the Bible around and pontificating based on one’s faith strikes me as presumptuous, arrogant, insensitive and sanctimonious (all of which have no value whatsoever). GZ’s fate will be determined through a rigorous rational process that is based on the facts, the evidence and the Law – not through a religious process that is based on the verses of the bible. ‘Common Sense’ will get the job done. Not the “BIBLE” and what “the Lord sayeth” therein. I hope folks would leave their religion/faith/bible/prophesy behind within the confines of their hearts and homes. Faith is beautiful, but no one needs to know that anyone is a holy practicing Christian or how often he/she goes on his/her knees on a daily basis calling ‘Lord, Lord…. I have fed the hungry, clothed the naked …’ etc. Surely, no one wants to create the wrong impression that commenters here are (in part) driven by religious zealotry.
@SearchingMind. It is accused murderer GZ who brought God into his case. He is the one who believes that his killing of Trayvon was God’s plan. He is the one who has no regrets. In a strange sort of way, your statement about law and religion/faith not mixing applies to GZ, does it not?
By the way, many people of faith do not see their faith the same as religion. I am spiritual — not religious.
Xena- same here. Spiritual but with Wiccan leanings. Doesn’t mean I don’t understand or use other imagery. I believe There is a Higher Power or Cosmic Karma, whatever. It doesn’t need a name to work. GZ has justice coming.
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@cielo62. Good morning.
There’s a parable that Jesus teaches about allowing the wheat to grow with the weeds until the wheat is ready for harvest. There is truth mixed in all things. I glean what I find as truth from the field of the world.
We see that in nature. Everything produces according to its own kind. That includes the seeds we plant in life. Plant evil, wrong, hate; reap evil, wrong, hate. I also believe in positive and negative energy.
On the evening of 2/26/12, GZ planted fear. It shouldn’t now surprise us that he is paranoid that someone is out to hurt him. Like he told Hannity, GZ pulled the trigger because he was “terrified” that the cops would show up and find him standing there with his gun and shoot him. He had an alternative but chose to end Trayvon’s life. Should it surprise us that GZ did not look for alternatives to the lifestyle he chose on 2/27/12 and has wasted over $200,000 in less than a year with nothing to show for it?
I agree — justice is coming from GZ, directly from his garden of life according to the seeds he plant.
Xena- good morning! I like that, gleaming truth from the field of the world! Part of my growing in wisdom is allowing myself to accept truth wherever it is. For many years I was anti-Christian, because many of their teachings stand against me (being gay, a minority and a woman, there is much evil said against people like me). But I’ve learned to “take what I need and leave the rest.” Indeed sometimes there are many weeds around a few shafts of wholesome wheat!
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@cielo62 Throwing this out. If you want to discuss it more, come over to chat (you are a member, remember:-))
There’s a natural understanding of the literal words, and a spiritual understanding of the literal words of the Bible. Literally, God created man male and female — he formed the woman.
Xena- maybe we could take this over to Black Butterfly. Scientifically, EVERYBODY is female through most of the 1st trimester, so I don’t buy that bs that woman was formed from man. Just the opposite. That “formed for man” was just an excuse to subjugate women. It’s still used that way. No wheat on this pasture.
@cielo62 Blackbutterfly7 is a blog supporting justice for Trayvon. I won’t discuss this on the blog, but will discuss it in Blackbutterfly7 private chat if you want.
Not female formed from male because man was created male and female. Those are genders. The solution to the equation is that mankind is God’s woman.
Xena- ok I’m about to show my ignorance. How do I get to the private chat at that blog? I didn’t know it existed, either.
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@cielo62. You accepted the invitation. 🙂
Go to the following link to sign-in.
http://blackbutterfly7chat.wordpress.com/
@Amen! My spiritual experience has nothing to do with religion.
@SG2, and that is why when GZ said he had no regrets,and it was all God’s plan, we realize just how sick he is. He made God a party to his case — and just look at what has happened in court; Denied, Denied, Denied, Moot, Denied.
What George Zimmerman did was blasphemy. The Word clearly says “Thou Shall Not Kill”.
@SG2
Add no repentance, bearing false witness, and “If a man doesn’t work, neither shall he eat.”
@southern Girl and Xena- the actual translation is Thou Shalt Not MURDER. There are justifiable times to kill.
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@Cielo62. I invited you to another forum if you desire to talk about spirituality. SearchingMind isn’t open minded; it’s not my intent to offend; and we are not here on this blog to discuss spirituality.
Xena- just correcting a translation that SG2 had said. Nothing more.
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@Cielo62. I understand. There’s another way of understanding that commandment, but we’ll talk off blog.
I’m thinking FogenPhoole has a different Bible than the rest of us. Maybe his says “Thou shalt not kill…..anyone you don’t think is suspicious…..all others are fair game”
His Bible has to say “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor….that is if he’s white or at least acts white enough, or it gets you off the murder rap”
My comment was meant for @Xena.
This religious madness rooted deep in fussy concepts and confused thought process is really nauseating. Xena, Cielo, etc. pls. knock-off the BS.
@SearchingMind
I hear that cranberry juice helps nausea.
Also, eating with the mind instead of the mouth might help. IOWs, if you don’t like it, don’t read it and keep your mouth shut.
Searching Mind- excuse me? Not your blog to command. Plus I have yet to argue with anyone re: any religion whatsoever. Sorry it offends you. Feel free to skip my empty contributions.
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@ Xena
Not every White man you encounter is out to get and “define you” or “put you in your place” as you now and the claim. Simply put: you are an idiot.
Searching Mind, I am firmly on your side on this issue. I find it deeply irritating to what extend religion is evoked in the US. But then I am European and we do not have much religion in the public sphere. Although it seems to surface again in the context of Arabophobia in right wing politics. … But I only read your initial and last comment.
I once encountered a really simple and inspiring statement about all Monotheist religions by Jan Assman over here. I think it offers a simple explanation for why different people may stress different contents in religion to the extend it looks incomparable.
All the Monotheist religions contain two core elements:
a) to care about the less fortunate
b) to fight the other
It wasn’t really surprised that in US Catholic circles the just war theory of Augustus surfaced in the post 911 universe. So there may be a macro and a micro-perspective in religions that allows some religious folks to fight, even kill “the other”, based on whatever concepts. Abortion clinics and doctors? Kill the killers seems to be considered religious practice by some.
It feels it is pretty obvious why Fogen evoked religion addressing the FOX audience. Prayer surfaces in the Conservative Treehouse too.
I am on your side on this issue, it should be kept out here. There is a deep nexus between religion and politics all the way down to Carl Schmitt’s Political Theology. Schmitt supported the Nazis. He was a stern anti-liberal.
hitler claimed to be a catholic…..go figger
And I thought most Germans were Lutherans.
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Good call Cielo….As a matter of fact West Germany issued at least a half dozen stamps honoring Martin Luther……
He claimed to be an alter boy and there is 1 picture of him in a choir, robe on and all. He said he loved the Glory and Granduer of the Church.
He must have sniffed to many paint fumes durint that short “Starving Artist” phase.
cileo, Hilter was born in Austria and spent his early life living there.
Tower flower- thank you. I remember Himmler was catholic. I’ve watched enough WWII documentaries that I really should have known that.
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Catholic and very heavy into the Occult.
Indoctrination into the SS was a VERY occult ritual….
BTW…..It was reinhard heydrich (Big Nose) that came up with the “final solution”
They were some messed up dudes….
You know the story of Lydice after heydrich was killed by a bomb by partisans?……..Murdered everyone in the town…..then leveled it….
It seems all through history mankind has always had it’s share of monsters.
It’s actually a good thing he was killed in 42. One thrown bomb, even though they had blamed the wrong people, may have saved millions. Hitler was about to send him top France as I remember.
Race…..You do know your history on that subject……The fact the man was even feared by other nazi’s….
Yup…..that one bomb….During that period the Sudetenland was called Bohemia & Moravia…..the nazi’s even issued stamps (Many) from Bohemia & Moravia
I know the one stamp of him which is a profile, his nose looks like it was copied from the “I hate Jews” handbook. He had a long pointed nose, just like all those posters the Nazi’s hung everywhere.
That stamp….Scott Bohemia & Moravia #B20…..is his death mask…….Catalog value is 20 cents……….
I meet this misconception a lot in the US, cielo. It may be more true for France, Italy or Spain then for Germany. We had a 30 years long war over religion after all. Protestant versus Catholic, how could that be if we were only Protestant? Remember Luther was a German monk. For the Pope of course the Protestants were simply another strain of heretics a the time of this long war. The Prussians e.g. were Protestants, the French Protestants, the Huguenots fled there. [ Cuius regio, eius religio ] There were sill anti-Catholic laws in the later 19th century with Prussia dominating the scene.
In any case, I guess it’s 50/50 as far as these two believe systems then and now due to the above law. The latest statistics are 30% Protestant, 30% Catholics, 30% non-believers, 4% Muslim followed by Jews, Buddhists and other smaller groups.
Leander22- gone are the days were one could suppose fairly homogenous groups by country. I heard that in Argentina, the country of the new pope, 85% self identify as Roman Catholic and yet barely 10% regularly attend church. I would imagine its like that in many places.
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@Leander22
You wrote this to me, but I did not post that. I have no concern for labeling people according to their religion or denomination.
Xena- no, this was to me. I mistakenly thought hitler was a Lutheran. My bad.
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@cielo62. No problem.
The Conservative Outhouse has stopped all blogs regarding Fogen. Looney apprised me about 2 hours ago. I made a few calls and when I find more out, I’ll post what I can.
Something is up !!
MMP- !!! Hmmmm… Indeed, something legally pressing might be afoot. Please do let us know what you find out.
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I’ll keep trying. I’ll bet many sock puppets disappear and new one just “Pop up out of the woodwork” I’m wondering if LJP disappears.
Forrest Gump: Stupid is as stupid does! You’d think they’d become circumspect about posting on a site that was “wall to wall hate 24/7”, but I guess not. My guess is that those who went overboard, carried a whole slew of followers with him by the momentum of “in the moment” lunacy. Once they’d created enough material for their detractors to use to effect, the bigs have had to head for cover, leaving their followers hanging out to dry.
Any “fellow travelers” of that and other hate sites, have to be terribly worried that they might be identified and monitored or worse, reported for actionable conduct. …And that’s if it isn’t the authorities working the beat themselves.
Without an audience to play too it’s going to get very lonely for Knox, Stutzman and Pipitone. They may soon be looking for biofidelic jobs, lol.
Lonnie- LOL! Biofidelic jobs! Gotta keep that bio and fidelic together!
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Xena, maybe I do not understand what “labeling people” according to their religion means.
Fact is, I shouldn’t have interfered here without following the whole exchange; on the other hand I have often felt enormously uncomfortable here when religious matters dominated. I was absolutely relieved when Malisha occasionally added a little religious color into what felt like the domination of Christian thought. I wouldn’t mind to hear Muslim, Buddhist, Zen, Wiccan philosophy on matters if you like. But do you think these voices would come forward if everything propagated is Christian? In other words I am bothered by the domination of the Christian thought here. And I am with fauxmccoy it’s mainly a private affair and in an open discussion, it estranges people who for one reason or another don’t fit the “label”. Now since I am brought up Christian, I shouldn’t have a problem with it. After all I seem to be a member of the most outspoken majority here. Fact is I do have a problem with it.
@Leander22
Well, maybe I can use an example from what you wrote;
For my part in this, I spoke about Romain’s comment being an anointed prophecy. Why would you place that as a “Christian thought” when anointing and prophecy is believed in other religions, including Jews and Islam, either modern day or in the past?
Labeling is mostly done out of ignorance and I don’t mean that offensively. Rather, people who do not know or care to understand the difference between spirituality and religion generally turn to religious labels, having to define others by a religion or denomination. For instance, I perceive and believe that Frederick Leatherman is a spiritual person. I recognize him, as well as many others here, because of who they are internally. For me, there is one source of good and that is what I recognize, whether someone claims to be the member or believer in a religion or not. Namaste.
Romain’s contribution was perfect, but that is not what I meant, that was in fact pretty universal. Romain simply took Fogen at his own word. It does not really matter, it may in fact be more about deep childhood trauma with my own church at the age of eight. A sin that had to be confessed: Did you have relations with people of other religions. I was furious, my best girlfriend at that time would have fitted that label.
In any case, back to Romain’s LA article. How does Fogen define “his peers”?
Racerrodig posted “The Conservative Outhouse has stopped all blogs regarding Fogen. Looney apprised me about 2 hours ago. I made a few calls and when I find more out, I’ll post what I can.
Something is up !!”
Just finished reading all the comments and it appears he is only stopping the daily discussions but promises a ‘huge’ story that will blow away the state’s case. He has also had his hand out recently asking for funds to pay for documents.
Seems he told everyone to go to D-man’s site of which he was never consulted nor is he prepared for that and said so. SD is keeping it to himself right now and won’t disclose the reason, so I would love to hear the real reason, He threatened to shut it down a few weeks ago because of his disgust for MOM. I truly hope that one of the doxed DeeDee’s hired a lawyer to shut him down.
Poor fogen, where will his defense team get their conspiracies now?
He has nothing that will blow the states case anywhere. If so, we’d know about it.
Oh Xena. I think we both understand what we both are saying. There is no need for semantics. ‘Spiritual’ presupposes ‘religious’. And ‘religious’ does not necessarily mean being a member of a particular religion or believe in4 any particular God. There is absolutely nothing wrong in being religious/spiritual. On the contrary, many depend on their spirituality for strength in confronting the daily hazards of life. But religion/spirituality has its own place and must IMO remain there. Yes, GZ brought God and religion into the equation, but we know that GZ is “confused”, “mistrusting” and “fearful”. These words which are from GZ’s own lawyer describe the classical symptoms of psychophrenia. We also know that GZ has been consuming brain-altering drugs for years which may have turned him into a really deranged mind. I have no doubt that Trayvon would be alive today if he has been White. I equally have little doubt that GZ will be convicted for 2nd degree murder. IMO, that goal has to be reached through a clean, uplifting rational process. Throwing other stuff in the mix can be off-putting. And that is not in the interest of Justice for Trayvon. GZ and his supporters – including Jeralyn Merritt – I consider beneath me, because, as Professor said, anyone who knows the facts of this case and still fights for GZ’s acquittal is a racist (and it does not matter how hard that person tries to hide behind titles such as “liberal lawyer”). To play the game at their level demises the quality of what I believe we do here.
@ Romaine
You raised many questions that form part a very important aspect of Constitutional law: Separation of Church and State. I will not be getting into that topic because it is very compound, vast and still largely unresolved in the academia. Surely, I respect you and how you feel. The same goes for everyone here. All I am saying is that we always remember to give to “render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Religion and Law do not mix. Your post was not the main catalyst of my post. I came across other posts that are faith-based. As such, I feared that we may be drifting to the wrong direction and wanted to point that out.
@SearchingMind. You use many words to explain what you think I mean, but your words do not define me neither my beliefs. Many times, others here throw other stuff into the mix. If I believe it is “off-putting,” I generally don’t comment on it. Certainly, I would not be so presumptuous to tell them what they believe and why. Your mileage might vary.
Let’s move on, Xena. I love ya.
Religion USED TO BE the law.
Now we have national laws and even international law that are not, in most cases, religious. There are a few countries that still (or again) use religious law. We’re not supposed to be living in one of THEM. (Thank God for small favors!)
I have a friend who is an Evangelist. She actually believes that one will prevail at law if God is on her (or his) side. Whenever we have dinner she goes into that and I say, “I lost. God was not in my side, then?” She finds a reason that wasn’t so.
Malisha- one of my favorite bumper stickers is “the last time Law and Religion were mixed, people were burned at the stake. ” I truly believe in people’s rights to believe what they want. I also believe in being free from other people’s beliefs. I have never seen any evangelizing on this blog, but many soul-felt expressions of hope in our ability to seek and obtain justice. I loved the LLMPapa video with both the message and the music. And let’s face it, God just isn’t on GZs side on this! Sent from my iPod
searching mind – thank you for your post. at the risk of alienating people here who i care about very much, i must admit that posts which are primarily religious in nature are awkward for me. i tend to gloss over them. religion is a deeply personal matter and discussion of which i am not prepared to engage in a public forum such as this.
SearchingMind,
I am glad to see your post. It gives me a chance to clarify that–
.
gz, on Hannity, basically was saying that God’s Plan was a higher law to him than any that he man-made law.
.
People here simply called gz on it by using gz’s Bible to emphasize that he was in big “doo doo” with his god.
By the way, I think, historically, societies have said, “our god or boogey man is going to GET you even if we can’t.”
from the song:
I understand what you are saying, and I appreciate the courage it took for you to say it.
@ Xena
Not every White man you encounter is out to get and “define you” or “put you in your place” as you now and the claim. Simply put: you are an idiot.
@SearchingMind.
I don’t know what your race and gender might be, and neither do I care. Do you have some type of crystal ball to show you my race? Your own assumptions placed you in a position to be put in your place.
Searching mind- simply put, you are out of line.
Sent from my iPod
X 2 and I know many more will state that.
X3
There ya go !!!!!!
Why don’t we pull it back a notch. Xena is the last person here you can call or even infer is an idiot.
X2
Good afternoon my good man !! I picked a bad day to sleep in.
X3
Well hello there stranger!!! Long time no see, whacha benupto? LOL.
@Lonnie
Ughhh busy.
I am going to the music room, the thread is taking so long for my computer to load.
Yeah, Prof hasn’t been here in a while and the threads getting really long. I hope he doesn’t think we expect him to read every message. If he can’t shed workload when he needs to blogging becomes more of a chore than fun or a serious enough drag to pulverize passion.
@racerrodig. Thanks, brother.
My Pleasure…….He’s in over his head on that one.
Yes, that remark was completely uncalled for and terribly untrue in the extreme. The rhetoric needs to be dialed back quite quickly and an apology to Xena is in order.
Get’er done and move on please!
X2
X 3
@Searching mind
First of all I’m not a he, lets clear that up
Second of all I agree with Xena and the rest, you are wrong on many levels.
Third I’ve been thinking to myself that you are just mean for no good reason.
You conceded and apologized but you didn’t mean any of it.
You have mocked and continue to display your ranting and rage.
You remind me of the wicked witch from the west in the wizard of OZ, you’d melt from water your so mean.
I will add that I think your heart is vile and filled with contempt for reasons unknown to me, but whatever it is I did not do it.
Romaine- fear not! This witch doesn’t melt! 🙂
Sent from my iPod
@ Xena
Again, you are an IDIOT.
@ Romaine
The day I will stoop to your level and repeat the same filth you spew, I shall have drank hemlock.
@ Racer
I would expect you to have the courage to engage me and debate – instead of taking refuge in one-liner rants.
What are talking about…..I don’t post rants to start with and lately all you do play games. I don’t get into anything with those who are just trolling.
You calling others names here who disagree with you shows what you are. I also have the right to ignore anyone chose to..
@SearchingMind. All your boasting and bragging of being more intelligent than others, and you can’t think up a word other than “idiot” to use in your personal attacks. Tsk. Tsk.
He’s goofy. He has all his facts wrong, and stated he “…earned the right to be arrogant” Nobody earns that right. he might as well put up a sign that says…”I’m a moronic internet troll”
@ Racerrodig
Sir, a couple of weeks ago you mounted unjustifiable attacks against Unitron and tried to disqualify him as a troll. I was among they who came to his defense.
A week or so ago, someone used the name Unitron to post on this site in an effort to disqualify the real Unitron as a troll. I said something to the effect that the person doing such is a creep.
As the saying goes, the elephant never forgets. I knew there will be payback time for me one day. Is this it, Raccer? Worry not though, I one tough son of a bitch, Me.
SM (Sado Masochist)?
Crawl back under your rock…….All I see is YOU attempting to cause dissension in this blog.
As per your degrees you speak of…..anything similar to fogens…..graduating 307 out of a class of 312?
Now feel free to attack me.
For the record I mounted no attack on anyone. I never attackedunitron, I said ignore him…..I know everyone will remember that one.
SM will have to keep searching for his mind because it’s obvious he is missing his.
Anyone who says they earned the right to be arrogant is the one with the sick mind…..
@ searching mind
you may recall that at the time of unitron’s return, i was quite clear to state that he was a long time poster and not some new troll. i take issue with some of his postings to people and i am direct in stating so to him.
you know also that i stood with you when you voiced a discomfort with overtly religious posts or threads which display an overall religious tone. such posts do not set well with me and i appreciated that you were willing to say what i had been holding back. there were others who understood your original post, who respected it and agreed.
i have respected your postings and read them with interest. i will say to you right now, as i have to unitron in the past, that your postings in the last 24 hours have disturbed me, as they do not reflect the thoughtfulness i have come to expect from you. i hope that you can take this as a friendly voice. i think that i can see the big picture here and without going into great detail, i understand some of the anger you are now displaying.
i would ask you kindly to consider the well being of this forum and ask yourself in all honesty if your current postings are beneficial to the cause which binds us together.
i have no desire to alienate you just as i do not wish to alienate those who choose to bring their religion to this debate. i have to believe there is room here for all who seek a just resolution to the state of florida’s case against zimmerman. my purpose in speaking out now is a friendly attempt to keep the peace and i hope that you will accept it as such.
Faux McCoy- a sane voice.
Sent from my iPod
You’re a lying sack of shit. I staged no assault on anyone and you know it. Since you enjoy attacking everyone here I’ll express myself and I’ll use what you admitted to being…..that is an arrogant shit.
As MMP said STFU and have a nice day.
Get your facts straight next time tough guy !!~ You ain’t tough by the way.
@ Lonnie,
I see you have joined the call from Racerrodig (who may have his own personal issues). For the record: I STAND BY MY WORDS! I KNOW THOES WORDS TO BE TRUE!
@ MM
Seems you are seeking for attention. Maybe it has not occurred to you that are at the wrong address and may need to seek out people of you own caliber (this is the last you hear from me – dont expect more).
You attack everyone here that is respected….have nothing to contribute, brag about your alleged education, major in the minors, attack one who agrees with what you oppose, and say you earned the right to be arrogant and yet claim I have issue’s..
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Nobody has the right to arrogant…..You’re nothing but an internet troll…..grow up.
My complaint is about your name calling, that is not civil and should be withdrawn and apologized for.
The one who stated “…I earned the right to be arrogant…” thereby admitting a mental issue, claims I have issues. I guess he can practice “Mental Telepathic Psychology”
Obviously he can’t stand the fact we can agree on something….
Is it really the last? Thank heavens!
@ Racerrodig
The offensive MUST stop. Period!
Contrary to what you state, sir, I hate nobody. “All of a sudden” a handful of people here started attacking me. YOU, sir, called on others to join you in the attack, and – amazingly – some followed suit, intensifying the offensive. Now you call me a nut job, a troll, joined in the avalanche of insults and I would be blamed for everything that went wrong if I respond in kind?. If the offensive is not halted, I shall defend myself with vehemence.
Parrot took an honorable initiative to defuse the situation. I responded positively to Parrot’s request in an effort to defuse the situation. But behold, your call for war came. That call was headed by Xena and Romaine. Thus far, a few has followed suit, hauling insults. And I will be counting. Am I angry? Damn right, I am. I demand! an end to the offensive.
SM……….STFU
Have a nice day 🙂
This guy already admitted he has at least 1 mental disorder, so consider the source. He can’t seem to stand that we have each others back either.
@SearchingMind
(Yawn) Again, you lie.
@SearchingMind to raccerodig
IOWs, you want to be the only person posting offensive comments without anyone responding to them. If you don’t want responses, stop making personal attacks.
He has already admitted he has a mental issue…his words, so consider the source. What all internet trolls do is disrupt the conversation….this is text book by him.
Clearly you are the offensive one. You attacked other and now you are nothing more than a cry baby.
Grow up….
SM- I would say you have launched a few ore emotive attacks of your own, calling people idiots and sycophants. That’s hardly the position of someone beleaguered. More to the point, it’s been non stop attacks from you ever since the LLMPapa video using religious words and imagery. Since then its been textbook troll behavior, arrogance, insults and petty squabbling. Even faux offered an I’ve branch but you spit at one and all. Honestly, what’s gotten into you? If you’ve missed a dose of something PLEASE take it.
Sent from my iPod
Well said and thank you. I never attacked him in the 1st place. I specifically ignored 2 days of his garbage. But he stated he “…earned the right to be arrogant…” So he admits a mental defect.
@Cielo62 to SearchingMind
That’s exactly what started it. Thank you. Had SM not written a diatribe generalizing spiritual beliefs as “religious” and “Christian,” there would have been no comments about him, neither religion.
Searching Minds said:
“Simply put: you are an idiot”.
I have always enjoyed your posts, but I have to say that I find your characterization troubling and more fit for a different type of audience. Please reconsider.
I agree with you, Parrot. After I posted my initial comment, the first replies from Romaine and Xena forewarned me of trouble ahead. I acted immediately by sending very conciliatory posts to both of them hoping that we can move on from there. Romaine (and he is a good soul) got it and we moved on. But Xena (probably perceived that as weakness and admission of guilt and) piled on and on with vindictiveness and insults which culminated in, among others, this post to me: “I hear that cranberry juice helps nausea. Also, eating with the mind instead of the mouth might help. IOWs, If you don’t like it, don’t read it and keep your mouth shut”. That was quite offensive. That’s how things got to that regrettable situation. At your urging and remaining faithful to my own moral principles, I withdraw the words: “simply put, you are an idiot”.
@SearchingMind. You are misrepresenting the sequence of comments to lie. After you wrote a diatribe of what you felt others believe, I and Romaine responded to you. You said we should move on. I did not post further to you. Cielo62 made a comment and she and I began sharing, to which you then stated that our sharing was making you nauseous. Then you posted to me:
You made a lousy attempt to inflame and not getting the response you wanted, you then posted on the thread where you mistakenly believe that the State of Florida can prosecute GZ for federal violations where you made another lousy attempt to belittle me.
Your lies do not define me.
@ Parrot
Parrot, the post above from the individual in question, at least from my point of view, depicts the vile nature of the person in question. I think I was right when I called her and idiot. I stand by that statement.
@SearchingMind
That should be “an idiot.”
In all reality the “actual idiot” had it wrong…Gee….imagine that.
@ The individual in question
You belittle yourself when you pretend to know things you neither understand nor will ever understand. As I said, it’s not your fault and I blame you not for that.@ The individual in question
You belittle yourself when you pretend to know thing you neither understand nor will ever understand. As I said, it’s not your fault and I blame you not for that.
Again, for your information, I hold an LL.M degree. That presupposes a JD. I am being arrogant? Damn right, I am! I earned it. And I am proud of it. So, don’t ever pretend to teach me or anyone else the law!
Searching Mind- maybe you should be searching for a different blog then. This is a site for those poor slobs among us who do not know the law but want to learn. Why are you here anyway? To be a big fish in a little pond? To show off your massive law brains? That shows low self esteem and a lack of confidence in your abilities. It’s not like your posts are anywhere near as educational as Prif. Leatherman’s. indeed, your tend to be but picky and arrogant. Oops, sorry. You already admitted to being arrogant. Add self centered and pompous jerk to that description and it fits perfectly. Be gone. I believe we’re done with you being the bully on the playground.
Sent from my iPod
@cielo62
He is still searching for his mind.
It’s gone….long gone, but maybe he left it in the “I earned the right to be arrogant” file. Seems like he never understood what that line wrought.
@SearchingMind. Maybe you should request a return of your tuition since you were not taught the difference between state and federal jurisdiction.
SM = Graduated 301 out of a class of 300…..
Maybe he took 7+ years on a 2 year course also. He did however fail to take any social graces class, but admitted he earned the right to be arrogant. So he is saying he has mental issues and is proud of it.
MMP- LOL!
Sent from my iPod
@ Cielo,
Playing the sycophant, seeking to be loved, satisfying the urge to ally with anyone to feel “belonged” and “accepted”, insulting me would give only get you some momentary joy and make you ‘salon fahig’ to they whose company you craze. Nothing more. Nothing less. Beyond that,I seek not your respect.
SM……….STFU
Thank you & Have a nice day…..
MMP
What is up with this nut job SM all of the sudden ?? He hates everybody.
Your comment X 2
SM- and standing up for a friend gets me nothing so be it. Unlike you, I have friends. I know what it means to work with others for a greater goal. I do it at work, with my volunteer groups and even here. If working cooperatively to you means being a sycophant, then how sad and empty your life must be.
Sent from my iPod
I’m your friend !! Read his posts and how they went to telling others what issues they have. I quote him “…I earned the right to be arrogant…” meaning he admits he has a mental disorder.
Does this sound familiar …….
“I don’t know what his deal is….” “…..he’s on drugs or sumptin…”
The crazies……..
on an unrelated subject, i have found the secret to fogen’s expand-A-belt extravaganza program (and blame crane station)
Probably illegal in New York.
Almost spit my tea again!
Law of diminishing return
Our civilization has long reached its peak and is now in decline. Who could have imagined that one day the public would start feeding- or be made to feed like animals (no offense meant to animals). I think that the genius behind this initiative ought to see a psychiatrist.
searing mind – please note that this was a satire piece done by ‘the onion’. they are good at what they do, so good that it difficult to tell that this is fact a fake news story. however, it does seem as we are not far off from this hideous vision.
Ha, Fauxy, that’s a good one. I have been pwned!
heh heh heh – funny. the sad thing is one can picture it all to easily, right?
Ah! The Onion! Great bit of satire there! You didn’t really fall for it, didya? 🙂
Sent from my iPod
The solution, if they get trial delay for another year or two and need to reduce the client size, is to go on a feedbag exercise draft program.
Image of the draft program, they could ship the defendant to Turkey if he can get his bond conditions laxed a bit.
http://www.loupiote.com/photos/5237461740.shtml
The photos taken that night at the police station show no signifigant injuries. All he has are scratches.It is obvious his nose was never broken.(although if trayvon had broken his nose he would have been well within his rights to do so)It’s in perfect shape. his eyes are not discolored in anyway they are normal. look at his lips. No bruising no swelling. Notice the complete absence of facial bruising. He claims he was beaten in the face 12 times or 30-40 times.obvioulsy it never happened. Look closely at those injuries on the back of his head. there is 1 round punture wound(he obvious bumped his head on something with a sharp point on it.he also has a straight 1 inch long cut.(something with a sharp edge on it.)He bumped his head on something with a point and a sharp edge. you will not get those from a sidewalk. Trayvon’s injuries a hole in his chest.A tiny 1/8th inch scratch on his ring finger.The internal injuries he suffered. the bullet broken into three pieces when it entered his chest the metal jacket it was in broke into two pieces, it also entered his chest.Thats 5 pieces of metal that entered his chest.they punctured the right ventricle of his heart the lower lobe of his right lung. and laserated the plueral lining of his chest wall.those injuries caused severe bleeding.which filled his chest cavity.which began compressing his lungs at some point the pressure became to great and both his lungs collapsed. some say they basically imploded from the pressure.whether thats true or not i don’t know. we just know his lungs collapsed.if trayvon was conscious when his lungs collapsed he would have suffered even more pain in addition to realizing he couldn’t breath.DNA shows trayvon never laid a hand on him. Yet he says trayvon tried to smother him repeatedly slammed his head into the sidewalk for nearly a minute while at the same time puched him in the face 12 times or 30-40 times. The sanford pd bought this so called mans story,they should have known better.
You know what gets me? I was reading some comment somewhere where someone said you could tell that GZ was telling the truth because he had injuries and Trayvon had none.
None??!!! What is a bullet hole to the chest, right through the heart asshatt????!!!!
Unfrickenbelievable!
And it isn’t that GZ didn’t have “injuries,” it isn’t even that they were not “life-threatening” injuries, because one can be in fear of their life with no injuries. The problem is, his “injuries” just do not have anything to do with what really happened. It looks more like he fell face first into a bush where a cat was hiding.
Do you have any idea what someone’s head looks like when it is bashed into the sidewalk again and again (and how did Trayvon do that anyway – he obviously did not have him by the ears)? Can you even begin to imagine what a fist to the face 20-24 times looks like?
It just sickens me when I hear that carp – GZ had injuries, Trayvon didn’t so he must be the one who did it/started it/whatever.
NO INJURIES????!!!!!
long ago i was forced to defend myself and i got no marks on me anywhere except my fists/knuckles, didnt get hit one punch but delivered the needed number and indeed badly injured my knuckles on both hands.everywhere you hit a person on the head you strike bones/teeth……the power required to lift a person up and smash their head is quite a bit even if they offer no resistance……..but fogen the phoenix was unable to defend himself on any level for over a minute, but suddenly when within an inch of his life fresh from being smothered for what seemed like HOURS and with so much blood in his eyes he was blinded, gains total control…..and after that horrific beating was able to rise suddenly to his feet AFTER he had squeezed the final life from his victim rather than calling for help for himself or his victim.
AFTER pulling the trigger he displayed a “depraved mind” with his actions and words….and none of those looking closely mentioned any injury to fogen one did note he was doing something to his own head though, right after he stood up in fact.
his entire story is and always has been preposterous.
@Rachael
I’ve read the same thing many times over. It’s beyond comprehension. Their ignorance is astounding.
@Rachael, it’s really something that only *IGNORANT* people in *THIS* country are dumb enough to buy all of his wolf tickets and lies. only those with common sense see through his bull shit and, they know he is lying. if he was in such fear for is miserable life, why in the hell did he follow somebody that he was afraid of because, he wasn’t afraid as long as he had his courage (gun) and he knew that Trayvon was a kid. my advice to Fogen, he had better always have his stupid ass body guard around him for the rest of his life. just because that ignorant dude is dumb enough to allow the defense to use him, that does not mean that Fogen is 100% safe.
That is why this law is scary because anyone could easily just kill someone and then stage injuries and then you would have people like that believe them based on that
There’s also a factor that a murderer could be injured because they are trying to kill someone and the victim defends themselves
But a good example is here
Just because Fogen had supremely mild injuries that healed by the time EMT got there, it does not necessarily mean he acted in self defense
This thug in the above video went at someone with a gun and the MMA fighter guy disarmed him and whooped his ass
Bless that there is actually an impartial jury
Because that argument is really moot
Besides, Trayvon also had severe global brain edema and a GSW, so to say he had no injuries is just plain stupid
I am not sure if the brain edema could be the result of the GSW. But yes, the GSW was severe enough, can get severer.
In this context I actually wonder if GZ made up the story about he wasn’t sure he hit him, or was dead and he tried to restrain him after he was shot. Can’t help but think that this is a story he made up since Mary/Selma made him aware he was watched now. He knew he had to come up with an explanation about what he was doing. It is a strange story anyway with a perfectly aimed shot at close distance.
regarding the brain edema – when the autopsy first became available, i printed it then spent the afternoon with my mother, a currently practicing (at 75!) RN with over 50 years experience and a specialty in rehab medicine. it was helpful to me. she stated the primary causes would be either head injury or lack of oxygen through the cause and manner of death.
thanks fauxmccoy, that was my impression. Both lungs and heart were hit. This must have severe results. Thanks for the response.
No fat lip. (He did pucker up a bit for Officer Wagner, though.)
The brain edema was severe and global
That is a head injury
The coroner should be able to tell us the exact reasoning for it
My guess is the combination of the gun shot and Fogenhats asphyxiating Trayvon by sitting his fat 200 pound butt, pinning the kid facedown, until he stopped moving
Also imo, you can tell Fogenhats is a devious person and a liar, just look into his eyes
Not calling myself an expert but there are some signs
One is he is very robotic and his eyes seem soulless
1) Yep
2) Yep
3) Yep
4) Yep, the fat pig
5) Oh Yeah !
6) Don’t sell yourself short, you nailed it.
7) Yep
You know for certain that you have a problem personality on your hands, when you’re watching a person recite imponderably insane fare, on a serious matter, and still keep a “straight face” intending for you to believe there is nothing at all wrong going on inside their head.
Watch the insane way GZ manipulates his face to project strong emotion, in an effort to support the statement he’s about to assert to Mr. Hannity. Now listen to what comes out from behind this mask: [paraphrasing of course] “I was locked up in jail and kept in solitary confinement… So, I didn’t have time to reflect… “!?!??!!??!
To which the only sane reply is “Whoa… What??? Could you repeat that please?” Any interviewer who doesn’t stop the interview at that point and focus on seeking clarification of that insane statement, but instead simply accepts it and moves on, is a person not worth listening to them self. You’re subject has just made a major departure from reality and you don’t find it odd enough to warrant investigation? Then, what other oddities have you also failed to notice? Those are the equations that the viewer should become seriously enamored of, because only those who are insane themselves, can find such material acceptable.
This equation says that GZ could have stripped, danced a jig across the stage, dressed and sat back down, and Hannity would have continued the interview as though nothing had happened. A host who exhibits a major lack of human curiosity, inquisitiveness and an abnormal lack of emotional reaction, is not someone any sane person should be listening to.
It would have been interesting if hannity would have asked fogen
“So god actually spoke to you revealing his plan for the death of this teenager to you?”
“So god actually spoke to you revealing his plan for the death of this teenager to you?”
“………um, well. (smirk…eye roll 2X, folds hands on lap) God said
enney, meany minnie moe……and when I was little part of it went “catch a nxxxxr by the toe” so I knew what God meant”
Fogen would probably say: “Gee, no, he doesn’t speak to me directly because he knows I’m Afro-Peruvian, so he speaks to Osterman and I listen in.”
Rachael, Use the comment to throw it back, TM didn’t have injuries, other than the gunshot, where are the injuries to his hands to support having delivered so many bare fisted blows to fogen’s face? No one bruise, swollen, cut or fractured knuckle, nothing to even suggest that he delivered so many blows.
@ Racerrodig — re Fogen’s imagined answer to Hannity’s imagined question:
But the rhyme says, “If he hollers, LET HIM GO”!
His ADD and ADHD preventing him from remembering the most important part.
The SPD ought to be ashamed of themselves for even entertaining the thought that he was telling the truth. they themselves were hell bent on helping him get away with murdering an innocent child. they didn’t buy his lies, they just wanted to see him get away with killing an AA child and that’s the truth in a nut shell. had Fogen been a black man, and killed a white Trayvon, he would have been arrested that very night and, he would no doubt be denied bail let alone two bail outs. for those who want to say this is not about race, they are fooling themselves. until this case, I never knew the State of Florida was as bad as it is when it comes to race.
@Ladystclaire
A black man wouldn’t had the first bond set at $150 thousand dollars either and a second chance at bond would have been a HELL to the NO once it was discovered he lied the first time around.
@SG2, I know this and he sure as hell wouldn’t have a second time to bond out of jail especially since he lied to the judge. some here might not agree with what I’m about to say but, the justice system in this country have always been against black people and that’s a FACT!
@SouthernGirl and ladystclaire,
I don’t even know how a white man or ANY man for that matter got out, ESPECIALLY on that second one. That is just crazy, totally insane.
And no, ladystclaire, I don’t think anyone would disagree with you about that at all.
@Rachael, Thank you and, I believe in telling it like it really is and that is the truth.
@Rachael, BTW, I really don’t understand how Judge Lester allowed him to bond out for a second time, especially since he lied to him about his money and a second passport. go figure!
@ladystclaire
A judge cannot grant relief not requested in the pleadings. I don’t remember his exact words now, but in his order (my paraphrase) Judge Lester said that had the State requested no bond rather than a million dollar bond, that he would have granted that request.
Xena, is it possible that the State requested $1,000,000 bond knowing it would eat up defendant’s accumulating money flow? Or, maybe, saw it as engaging bonding company to help monitor defendant? Or else, SAVING MONEY for the city of Sanford on what the Orlando Sentinel terms “Trayvon Martin-related expenses.” (foof!)
@Cercando Luce
IMO, no. When GZ petitioned the court for bond, the State entered a response that requested a million dollar bond based on the defendant’s past (criminal arrests), behavior (hiding before arrest), and the crime he was charged with (2nd degree murder).
Judge Lester heard testimony and set the bond at $150,000. What’s important to keep in mind is that when Judge Lester set that bond, he was under the belief that GZ had no money. So, it wasn’t about the money but what Judge Lester saw as GZ’s history that substantiated the bond he set.
When the State collected evidence that GZ and ShelLIE maliciously withheld the truth about the donations they received, it motioned to revoke GZ’s bond and the court so granted. Had O’Mara not motioned for a bond do-over, GZ would still be in jail awaiting trial. It was that motion that led Judge Lester to decide on the million dollar bond, as originally requested by the State.
“behavior (hiding before arrest)”
Hiding from whom?
The press?
The public?
If the state knew where he was (is there any evidence that they did not?), then he had every right, prior to ever being charged with anything, not to oblige the curiosity of the general public.
unitron
@onlyiamunitron
GZ told Hannity, and Osterman also said, that when GZ left the police station in the wee hours of the morning on 2/27/12, he moved in with the Ostermans. His was GZ’s actions that are factual, rather than his reason(s) for hiding, that the State considered in requesting a million dollar bail.
Don’t know. Serino did have GZ’s phone number.
This is part two of the reply that Serino had GZ’s phone number. Serino asked GZ to consult with his attorneys and come in for another interview. In fact, Serino called twice. The second time, GZ arranged to meet in Jacksonville, (it was late March, but I don’t remember the exact date. The recorded phone calls are on axiomamnesia.)
Even if that is true about GZ having the right to hide, it was not in his best interest at his bond hearing do-over.
They did NOT believe his lies; they want him to be blessed and set free for murdering a Black kid because they want the message to be: “Hey Black kids, you’re OURS; we do what we want to/with/about you, you got that?”
comprehend I mean………….
I comprehend– you’re better than Finnegan’s Wake!
LOL!
Cercando Luce says:
March 12, 2013 at 4:06 pm
And what an address, “One-eleven Retreat View Circle” in a complex with 4-digit numbers only.
Reply
Aw comeon guys 111 R V C .
It was the foggages ones best.
So what if it was actually 1111 r v c.
He was trying his best an if he was a thousand digits out he was trying.
Very Trieing.
His best an as we all know the fogages ones best is way more messed up.
Than an avarges persons worst.
And I was told that its rude non pc or whatever one calls it thease days.
To mock the mentaly inflicted..
Maybe he never learned to count above one hundred plus one an gave up.
Lets face it he was never going to need high number skills re his wage slips.
Big numbers just confuse an befuddle him.
Thats why he kept the 16 grand his attorney won for him.
In an employment disspute he didnt realise he also had to pay his lawer.
He thought he paid him when he gave him a hug at the end of winning the money.
Same way he couldnt pay his land lord rent big numbers .
Same thing with him being all potted plant at the bail hearing.
Well wth big numbers an the forgage one its litterlery true.
And I think it was rude of the judge to refer to him as a pottet plant.
As it true in his case an big numbers.
An see even the Judge was refering to forgage as greenery you know.I think Rabbie Burns may have been a soothsayer as well as a Poet.
Same way at the momment he is just pissin through money as if he is stuffing it in his cheeeks like a wee dormouse.
or feild mouse.
Big numbers he cannie cohptahend because all this Murdering a CHILD hath driven him round the bend.
Think that fits him to a T meself like.
Ken what I mean.
Ken what I mean. Wasn’t Ken know? That’s more close the the German languages; kennen in German. That’s the infinitive. I seem to vaguely remember that one.
yes, leander. although my family came to the US from scotland before we were a country, they lived in such isolated locations that some of the words and dialect my grandparents used make it much easier to understand colin’s poems.
ken – understand/know (to the best of my ability)
Off on another tangent. I was poking around the GZLegal site and reading the judges response to subpoenas for social media. O’Mara requests a bunch of stuff from both Twitter and Facebook (including friend lists, logs, all posts, pictures and so forth and so on) for Trayvon AND for Witness #8. What floored me was seeing that he made (and was granted) the request from Januar 2011 though the present.
Just struck me as being WAAAAAY overbroad (and surprisd that the judge did not question), but, I am wondering what has been the precedent and any pertinent case law insofar as FB and twitter accounts. I know that there was a recent ruling that prospective employeyers can require passwords to get access. My thinking has been that FB and Twitter are likely to fight this, but, I d on’t know–have there been any previous cases?
facebook said they would fight it
twitter I dont know
I am fairly sure there is no proof there that will help FogenHitler
There’s also likely to be nothing in the records to use against w8 either
Jun by now Twitter has purged any information regarding Trayvon’s account(which they do with ALL closed/deleted accounts) so there is likely nothing for them to give, court order or no.
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/bulletin/can-a-prospective-employer-ask-for-your-facebook-password/9366
https://www.facebook.com/safety/groups/law/guidelines/
They’re getting nothing. A supoena from the judge ain’t cutting it. They go by Federal law.
Requests can’t be overly-broad or vague
Must have name, ID badge#, law enforcement email address, direct contact phone# of LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL
Be part of an official criminal investigation
Have a Search Warrant…
AND have the Facebook ID number or username…
Wait…I thought the username is what they are trying to get from TM and DD??? lol
Not to mention that this request isn’t meant for criminal defendants. LOL
Regarding the punks or coons issue, either term is not a nice thing to say to someone and Fogen still said it with venom and hatred and anger, and that is what he admitted to saying
Besides, the judge and jury can decide from themselves and the state can isolate it for the court to hear
I do not feel he said punks, but lets say for the sake of argument he did, it still does not mean he is not a racist…
FogenHitler still called Trayvon suspicious for walking while looking black, called him up to no good, on drugs, something wrong with him, based on his own twisted view of the world and he had no actual proof to back up his assertions, and decided Trayvon was not worth much, just a “fucking punk”, who should be terrorized, stalked, chased, confronted, attacked, threatened, killed, and then framed by the defendant for crimes the kid did not commit
Sounds pretty racist to me
As well as “these assholes, they always get away.” Which ones GZ? These? You mean the ones who “look like” punks/coons/goons/shrooms/cold/gold ones? The ones you called the police on all the other times? The ones who were not white?
Off-topic but…
Everytime single time I listen to GZ’s call to NEN I get hung-up on what he says at the start of the call… “the Best address I can give you is….” (with an emphasis on BEST). Is there a “worst address” he could have given to NEN?
Doesn’t that make his claim of getting out of his vehicle “to get an address” sound even more bogus, since he has already provided NEN with an address ?
And what an address, “One-eleven Retreat View Circle” in a complex with 4-digit numbers only.
what if he was high?
Tzar, I believe that’s so, but it can’t be proven at trial or otherwise thanks to SPD failure to test the killer. I think he was over-doing the ADD amphetamines.
I think he was actually following Trayvon at that point and Trayvon was sheltering by the mailboxes.
He has a tendency to give the clubhouse address if he has a moving target. Just check some of the other calls he made. Although the other times he got the address right, and his speech wasn’t slurred.
I hope this gets picked up on!
He seemed highly distracted with what his ‘suspect’ was doing at that moment.
He’s cleverly trying to make it appear that he’s not familiar with RATL by saying 111 RVC when the correct address is 1111 RVC and he knows it. There are no three digit number addresses in RATL.
Also, he’s not reporting events contemporaneously in his NEN call, as many have assumed. Notice that he says “he’s hear now”, then later reports “he’s coming towards me”. So, where is “here”? Did Trayvon walk up to the truck, then walk back away and approach again? Probably not. So we have to lose the view that what the proven liar has already said during the NEN call, actually reflects what is going on at that point in time.
GZ is clearly using the NEN call to lay down a trail of deception.
Right thats it am aft tae watch the fitba .
Am starting to hear the twilight zone theme again..
And he murdered a Child an left him lieing in the grass.
Fogens green alright
Green eyed monster greed .
Anger issues =HULK
Likes to spend other peoples GREEN.
And in the UK the common name for an informer,
A Tittle tattle someone always on the phone to authourites about .
Other peoples buisness is a GRASS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informant
Definition of FOGGAGE
Scottish
: a second growth of grass
Origin of FOGGAGE
Scots, from Middle English (Scots) fogage, from Medieval Latin fogagium, from Middle English fogge second growth of grass (probably of Scandinavian origin; akin to Norwegian fogg long grass on damp ground) + Medieval Latin -agium -age
First Known Use: 1775
Sounds kinda similar to a “potted palm,” too, doesn’t it?
Hahahaha foliage
@Rachael
Bwa ha ha ha ha
Had to do some shopping for school supplies for my son and they had “Potted Palms” on sale…..Palm Sunday is coming up. I”ll bet some ignorant Zidiot claims it to be a tribute to FogenPhoole.
@ racer – LOL!
Fascinating. The poem is powerful and I love the Scottish brogue.
sorry 4th line 4th verse.
Burns ode to a mouse in Scots.
Fourth verse last line Scots word fogage is used.
Wee, sleekit, cowran, tim’rous beastie,
O, what a panic’s in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi’ bickering brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an’ chase thee,
Wi’ murd’ring pattle!
I’m truly sorry Man’s dominion
Has broken Nature’s social union,
An’ justifies that ill opinion,
Which makes thee startle,
At me, thy poor, earth-born companion,
An’ fellow-mortal!
I doubt na, whyles, but thou may thieve;
What then? poor beastie, thou maun live!
A daimen-icker in a thrave ‘S a sma’ request:
I’ll get a blessin wi’ the lave,
An’ never miss’t!
Thy wee-bit housie, too, in ruin!
It’s silly wa’s the win’s are strewin!
An’ naething, now, to big a new ane,
O’ foggage green!
An’ bleak December’s winds ensuin,
Baith snell an’ keen!
Thou saw the fields laid bare an’ wast,
An’ weary Winter comin fast,
An’ cozie here, beneath the blast,
Thou thought to dwell,
Till crash! the cruel coulter past
Out thro’ thy cell.
That wee-bit heap o’ leaves an’ stibble,
Has cost thee monie a weary nibble!
Now thou’s turn’d out, for a’ thy trouble,
But house or hald.
To thole the Winter’s sleety dribble,
An’ cranreuch cauld!
But Mousie, thou are no thy-lane,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men,
Gang aft agley,
An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain,
For promis’d joy!
Still, thou art blest, compar’d wi’ me!
The present only toucheth thee:
But Och! I backward cast my e’e,
On prospects drear!
An’ forward, tho’ I canna see,
I guess an’ fear!
I was pondering about whyles and daimen icker, at least the whyles once you know makes sense. The daimen icker is much harder.
Maybe others wondered? 😉 But actually interesting how well one guess most of the time.
@LLMPapa
Speechless……..
Thank you
Romaine and Papa.
Thank You Blushed, but the credit all belongs to Romaine.
All I did was listen to a still, small voice that spoke to me the MOMENT I read those words.
@Papa
well said.
@Romaine
The words fail me, to describe your post. Bravo!
Extraordinary. Thank you.
Well done!
Extraordinary on both your parts!!
Romaine, I hadn’t seen that comment yet. It’s direct, true, wise, and from the heart AND soul.
Papa, it’s the song selection. OMG. It can bring tears to my eyes under ordinary circumstances. But putting Romaine’s amazing message to that background song took the power of her words to a whole new dimension.
Thank you both!! (wiping my cheeks dry…)
Thank you! A wish come true, thanks Romaine and Papa.
wow llmpapa, ty for hearing that voice too. I was afraid to post it. I am now glad that i too listened to that still small voice…I love all that you do for Trayvon Martin. SMILE
@Romaine
Romans 12:19 (King James Version)
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
He’s Screwed !! Here and the afterlife.
@Racer
times 1,000,000
Yes racerod, he is. Like I said last night, even if he does not go to prison, he will never be free.
He took the life of another human being with no remorse.
He took God’s plan in vain. He will know God’s plan.
@bb, that verse from the BIBLE is oh so true and, this murdering lying lump of nothing will soon find that out. you don’t do wrong as expect to get by with it. another thing one shouldn’t do and get away with doing it is committing blasphemy, which is what he did when claimed that his murder was all GOD’S plan. he also tore the hell out of the 10 commandments. I sure wouldn’t want to be him, when the time for him to meet his maker comes.
@ladystclaire
He will answer in more ways than one. I truly believe that.
Strong, strong video using Romaine’s outstanding post, LLMPapa! Perfect music!
@bb, Indeed he does blushedbrown, indeed he does! he is also an on time GOD as well. we can all be assured that Fogen’s name is no where in the Lambs Book of Life but, Trayvon’s surely is.
Amen Romaine and Papa. Thank you both.
@LLMPAPA, the above video is simply priceless and, it brings tears to ones eyes. may GOD bless you now and always. JFTBM/JUNE 2013
Blushedbrown, now I will put the verse you quoted right here:
.
And here is ladystclaire’s post:
.
State what you claim your truths to be, before the God you say willed you to live and Trayvon to die.
My Lord! **goosebumps**
@LLMPapa and Romaine
I can’t stop crying. **weeping**
I am SO moved, also.
.
Romaine, what a contribution you have made with your words!
It’s powerful. The Spirit of the Living God.
I’m just catching up with todays’ comments. Romaine spoke a prophetic anointing, so I say “AMEN, AMEN, AMEN.” It’s all God’s plan that GZ is found guilty as charged and sentenced to life in prison.
It’s very anointed. It’s God speaking. Wow!
Makes me tingle all over!
YES!
BEAUTIFULLY done! And to one of my favorite spiritual songs as well. God’s justice will not fail. Hoodies up, hands joined in prayer.
Trained Observer, the video raises a question about the background sounds, the audible mechanical sounds. Why has no one speculated about windshield wipers on a rainy/drizzly night? If it’s a downpour or driving rain, then wipers would be needed continuously to drive or see, but if it’s drizzling and you are parked or driving very slowly as following behind, you can clear the windshield as needed. To see a real suspicious guy, wearing a button, white shoes, ‘GREY’ vs black hoodie, light coloured stone washed jeans or sweatpants, you might want to get a clear look through the windshield once in awhile.
What happened to the Honda Ridgeline between the time it was parked and driver exited and the next day? Did anyone check inside, document anything from outside, were the Target groceries inside the car, or at home, was S in the car as usual for the shopping trip?
If there was a walkie-talkie, there had to be two of them and unless someone else was along for the ride, one of the set would be still in the Honda. Why was it so critical to call SZ so quickly after the shooting? Was she within earshot of gunfire, or would she be close by and go see what was going on, or would she have been on that block and seen police cars arrive, and someone wanted her to stay away?
ay2z, We know that one of the cops at the scene ran license plate tags on the vehicles close to the scene and they knew one belonged to Zimmerman. The cops never secured the vehicle and left it there. Shellie came and took the vehicle. I don’t think she was there, I just can’t imagine not leaving the vehicle to check out a gunshot, knowing her husband had a gun and went after TM. She didn’t stay away, she arrived at the scene and met Osterman, whom she called. I just find it interesting that MO managed to arrive so quickly.
Their home, if she was there, wouldn’t have seen the cops arrive since their home wasn’t in view of the entrances
Something seems wrong: MO says he “drafted” in behind Shelly, when she arrives at RATL. But MO is walking around the scene alone before GZ is taken away? Shouldn’t SZ be there with MO trying to talk or at least wave to GZ? Or did I miss something?
I think you’re right. Look at how many issues have been uncovered already. Not issues, my bad….lies..I meant lies have been uncovered.
I know, let have the Mayor shine the Blushedbrown signal over Gotham City, she’ll show up in her records mobile and settle the issue for sure! 🙂
We all have a story to tell that reflects a lesson learned. Lies….
As I have said a thousand times “The truth never changes….but the lie always morphs”
When I was about 9 or 10, my brother & I raided an abandoned house in the woods behind our house. It was part of the “Underground Railway” helping escaped slave back when.
The owners sold it to the school board and it was abandoned for many years but there were all sorts of neat things kids could get into…….like gallons of paint. So my brother talked me into painting the trees, the old house, the well, and well…..we got quite a bit on us.
Then dad called us for dinner, dad……the gun toting cop, on that hot afternoon and asked what we had been doing…….well, when he asked if we had gotten into any mischief, like painting things we were “…..oh no, you said stay away from there..” Out came the mirror……the belt, and the turpentine……in just that order.
I learned pretty early in life about lying. Fogen…….’eh, not so much.
But how did Shelley know where he was. fogen told the guy to phone his wife and the guy said fogen said impatiently just tell her I shot someone.There was nothing about him saying anything about the location was there.
@Towerflower, how much do you want to bet, that it Mark Osterman’s car that tore out of that complex like a bat out of hell when that gun shot was fired. he was *THERE* and, when he got the call from SheLie, he came back acting as if he didn’t know what was going on.
I don’t know, I can see protecting your wife, but when your life is one the line (in term of years in prison), I can’t see lying to protect a friend who in the end has done more harm (by his book) than good.
I’d say it was critical that GZ make some sort of public announcement that his wife being contacted immediately because: If MO has been on the scene already, he has to arrive before 7pm, to avoid having to code his way in.
So the problem is how do you cover both SZ and MO? That announcement “call my wife” does the trick. She simply drives out (I don’t think you need a code or a key to leave), swings around and drives back in. MO can then say that he “drafted” in behind her, after coincidentally arriving at the same time she does. Problem solved.
Only thing wrong is it adds yet another coincidence to the pile. Notice how everything Team GZ needs to happen, manages to happen by coincidence? So that nothing needs to have been planned at all, all it took was for some 20 coincidences to happen at the right times, places and in the proper order. As the ancient Japanese saying goes “rots of ruck on that”.
Am finding it difficult to escape Fogen, no matter how hard I try.
On an unrelated matter, I Googled Edgar Allan Poe this morning, managing to spell it Allen. What popped up and caught my eye was an entry on Smirking Monkey posted by Mason, and apparently cross posted from the Leatheman Law. Had not seen or read this one before, and highly recommend:
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/mason/44884/zimmerman-once-upon-a-midnight-dreary-while-i-pondered-weak-and-weary
I also have a priceless cartoon of Edgar and The Raven being just a Poe boy a la Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody (Poe-hemian Rhap?) , but it doesn’t seem to want to past on this blog.
Leatherman and paste … sticky key syndrome on laptop.
his theory is close to mine
Ah yes, the smirking chimp, all the rage during the Bush years.
Is that Racer’s video work? I remember him saying he was working on just such a thing.
Rachael says:
March 11, 2013 at 11:33 pm
Is there really any male who has made it to high school without even 1 fight in their entire life
@ I know of many not sure what your highscholl system.
But in the UK we attend Primary School till 11 or 12 depending on month of your birthdate.
You then go to secondry up un till 16 if you wish to stay on an do higher exams say for entrance into The best universitys then you can spend a further two years in full time schooling an leave secondry at 18.
That of course is public schooling private an boarding Schools follow the same age curiculum.
Ive known plenty of Males whom have never had a fight in there entire life includeing school.
Thers lots of guys not into violence for many differnt reasons.
An no not just because they may be gay but thats a good one.Also what you Americans brand nerds studious students dont have no reason to be involved in violence.
An often even the toughest kid in school whom could probably kick the shit out of all the pupils an half the teachers if they wanted to dont indulge in violence. sometimes
Except to halt it if there bullying upon a weaker kid.
As the reason thease kids are so tough resiliant an hate violence is because they are constantly exposed to it at home.
An as anyone whom has been phhysically abused knows you fear the person that hits you an may hate the person.
But you have zero respect for them or there violence as you know there bigger stronger an cowardly.
So they abhor violence especialy bullying an stop it if there able to.
But yes there are many many men never been involved if fistcuffs or violence.
The UK has a far more polite society in general, except when drinking! I noticed that people there tend to avoid confrontation whereas Americans tend to love confrontation.
You could have made a much worse joke
I did last night but I thing I lost conection when I posted it.
Got a cannot dissplay web page ect.
An the wee yellw bar saying no conection.
MY Answer to what if the jury is hung..
If its an all male jury then I suppose they will have happy Wifes.
colin – you crack me up! and it isn’t ‘effin shrooms’ either any more 🙂
Colin black- if we haven’t set up a “naughty boy” corner for you yet, we better get on it!! ( I thought the same but didn’t have the guts to post it!)
Sent from my iPod
I see two women walking down the hill where I live and, if I were like Boss Hogg, I would have ran after them and asked, “what are you doing around here.” but, like Boss I don’t own any part of that street that is in front of my house and, people are free to walk where ever they please as long as it not private property.
Dave says:
March 12, 2013 at 7:37 am
Hi groans!
According to Mark Osterman, he and the killer used to practice together at a local range pretty regularly. Seeing that Osterman is an experienced police officer, I think it’s safe to assume that he showed the defendant at least the rudiments of shooting. I can’t recall whether this information came from an Osterman police interview, TV interview or his book.
As for the recoil from the 9mm cartridge, my knowledge comes from personal experience of firing hundred of rounds through a small. lightweight pistol (a Star BKS “Starlight”). It isn’t bad at all. The 9mm Luger cartridge has been in production since 1908 when it was adopted by the German army and is now the standard pistol and submachinegun cartridge of most of the world’s armed forces, largely because of its easily managed recoil.
The handgun was always considered a one-hand weapon until 30 or 40 years ago when the use of a two-handed stance gradually became standard, largely through the influence of writer and teacher Jeff Cooper (a prominent advocate of the .45 ACP, a far more powerful cartridge than the 9mm) as well as the popularity at the time of Magnum-class revolvers. With a medium strength cartidge like the 9mm, a two-handed grip is mainly to promote accuracy, not to protect oneself from facial cuts.
@
I have never fired a ristol or gun in my life.
I very much doubt fogen had ever practiced a shot where his VICTIM or TARGET was aprox two feet or less.
Where he has a grip of victims two upper garments close enough to the muzzle for contact.
An then primary target inches foot ?behind the clothing an fireing his round.
Also all this allegedlly happenened whilst he was on his back.
And its irrelevant wether that statements true in regards to your comment re his proficancy with an the light recoil of this projctile hollow point an pistol.
Although Im no expert I would think simple phicics tell you a bullet designed to expand on contact is going to do so.
Even if that contact is with streched out double layers of cotton.
An that would alone cause an unexpected kick back that fogen or any shooter would not be used to.
Because no matter how the fatal shot happened no .
NO ONE…
In there right mind is going to even attempt to recreate an regulary practice the kill shot fogen took that night.
What would be the point unless you were S A S or Seal type soldiers
An them guys would sooner slit your throat from behind than get into a wresttleing struggle an have to use a pistol to kill.
So respectfully I dont think fogen had any idea of what would happen or force of recoil when he made that one handed shot.
An the only reason back in the day revolvers where predominantly used one handed.
Was of quick an lethal access from a holster .
At there prefered hieght usealyl severall inches below there waist.
Thease where gun slingers quick draw experts an they practised constantly/
As there lives depended on it.
racer – should you see this and have the chance, please drop me a line at fauxmccoy@yahoo.com.
it would be much appreciated.
To anyone who says they KNOW what GZ said because they listened: That’s not good enough for a court of law. The ear (or more properly the audio processing of the brain) CAN play tricks.
I hear ‘coons’ too. But I wanted to be SURE. As leander noted, all words are made up of phonemes. So I isolated the phonemes of the mystery word in an audio editor. Then I went through the NEN call and isolated every clear instance where GZ uses the phonemes that make up ‘coons’ and ‘punks’ in other words. And I compared them to the phonemes of the mystery word. (That is, I’m not parsing the mystery word phonemes against some abstract ideal, but rather GZ’s own speech patterns in the same phone conversation.)
The comparison affirms the phoneme IDs leander noted above. GZ almost certainly said ‘coons’. There’s a miniscule possibility he said ‘goons’ and articulated it poorly so it came out sounding like ‘coons’. But, there is a 0% possibility that he said ‘punks.’
I put part of the analysis in the YT vid BB cited earlier, but I actually did a lot more that was too boring for YT. I am 100% sure of my findings. (For the record, I don’t think ‘punks’ or ‘coons’ makes a difference in evaluating GZ’s state of mind at the time of utterance, but it shows yet another lie on his part.)
And, for the 100th time: no, the click-clack sound on the NEN call is NOT a Kel-Tec PF9 being racked, cocked or whatever, no matter what it sounds like to you. The guy who made that video has a tin ear, and no clue how to read a waveform. The waveforms don’t lie. The sounds are not the same.
Yes, thanks on the KEl tec noise too, thought there was a dispute about that.
But we have to start with what we ‘hear’ and if we come to the evidence with a pre-set rational with what this person is saying, based on hearing it a dozen times in the media and being discussed, listen to it with a text overlay of what is being said according to the media writers, hear interpretations, hear a loop that completely changes what you hear, and ability to recognize the word in the same way.
Still, I’d think you can recognize component sounds, if not all, you can exclude some if the audio is clear enough. ‘K’ vs ‘N’, ‘oo’ vs ‘un’, hard sounds vs soft.
People may have different hearing abilitites, and may not hear some sounds the same as a person with normal hearing. But I agree that ‘punks’ with the explative, shows the killer’s attitude towards his victim.
I believe the evidence said one shot was fired and there were 6 bullets left in the gun. I then read, however, that there were originally 8 bullets in that gun. (That is possible for that gun.) And if so, the the sound I heard earlier in the 911 “killer shot” call was in fact probably a gunshot. To me, it makes sense that Fogen shot one warning shot to make Trayvon “fess up” to his wrongdoing, and when Trayvon failed to confess to his crimes, Fogen killed him. The police sure didn’t go looking for a second bullet casing when they were told by the perp that he only fired one shot. DID THEY? When the 911 operator asks, “how many shots…just one?” the answer sounded tentative: “…one” To me, there sounded like two. The first did NOT sound like a door slamming right after “Jeremy, get IN HERE!”
The magazine for Zimmerman’s gun holds 7 rounds.
If you put a full magazine in, work the slide to load one round in the chamber, take that magazine out and put another round in it and put it back in the gun, you have a total of 8 rounds available to you.
Because of the gun’s design, which incorporates what’s called a hammer block safety that prevents discharge from causes other than the trigger being pulled, the gun is “cocked” whenever there’s a round in the chamber.
In all likelihood it was already fully loaded with 8 rounds and ready to shoot as soon as someone pulled the trigger before Zimmerman left the house that night, and had probably been that way for quite some time.
If you carry a gun for protection it makes sense to be able to pull it out and fire “right now” instead of having to screw around with trying to load it or find a little safety lever, because an assailant is not going to wait patiently for you to get ready.
It certainly makes a lot more sense to already have it that way than to be out in the dark and the rain juggling a phone and a flashlight and trying to work the slide and then eject the magazine and pull your Barney Fife bullet out of your shirt pocket and load that into the magazine and put the magazine back in the gun.
If you fire once, the semi-automatic action utilizes the recoil to eject the shell and load the next round into the chamber, leaving 6 rounds in the magazine.
This was the state in which Zimmerman’s gun was when seized by Smith, 6 rounds in the magazine and a 7th in the chamber.
Only one shot fired.
unitron
“If you carry a gun for protection it makes sense to be able to pull it out and fire “right now” instead of having to screw around with trying to load it or find a little safety lever, because an assailant is not going to wait patiently for you to get ready.”
I won’t quote the statute, but that is illegal. Even the police cannot travel with one in the pipe. My dad was a cop for almost 30 years and I saw the law in print.
If you know your weapon, you don’t “… screw around with trying to load it or find a little safety lever,…” because when you hold a semi – auto pistol the safety if right where your thumb is.
If Fogen had actually taken the Fl mandated classes, he’d know that, it’s in the Fl handgun law handbook of which I had a copy of all of last year and quoted that courtesy of a customer of mine.
If that was the law in Florida on February 26th, 2012, they had all the evidence needed to arrest and charge him for that, irrespective of whether he fired in self-defense or not, and yet there’s never been any mention in any of the police reports of them considering that, Crump and co. never brought that up, Angela Corey never brought that up…
Perhaps the law in Florida last year differs from what it was many years ago in some other state.
unitron
Reality sucks ‘eh….No…no laws have changed.
Three little pigs…..
If you know there’s been no change in Florida law on that subject, then I assume you’ve had a look at it lately, and know where it can be found to be read.
Care to share?
unitron
I must have posted it 3 dozen times here and on HP.
Do your own homework
“Three Little Pigs”
i remember you posting this a number of times.
For the lfie of me I STILL don’t know why they haven’t charged him with carrying an illegal concelaed weapon, since no one has been able to produce a valid CCW for GZ. A “one in the pipe” violation pales in comparison with an illegal weapon, which I guess pales in comparison to second degree murder. STILL!! They should everything INCLUDING the kitchen sink at GZ. It will all stick like velcro.
This is not uncommon. Murder 2 puts him in prison for a long time.
racer~ not to mention that GZ didn’t have avalid CCW. At least not one anyone can locate.
Why should he worry about those pesky details ??
While I will certainly agree that it makes best sense to have all this loading, racking and packing the clip etc., done before hand, so as to be ready for action at the first sign of danger.
What puzzles me is, why bother to go through all that, then simply forget — when you become frightened or enter a dangerous situation — that you even have a weapon at all?
One moment GZ says TM has his hands in his waistband. obviously pointing to the possibility that TM has a gun. Then GZ gets out of his car to follow, what he believes could be an armed person, all the while completely forgetting that he had a firearm fully loaded and ready to fire.
GZ cannot see that the claimed punch, that supposedly broke his nose, could just as easily have been replaced with a knife attack or a gunshot?
So, if you’re so forgetful that you can forget you have a deadly weapon when you need it, you probably shouldn’t have one at all. Nor should you be putting yourself in a position to have to rely upon it, because a forgotten gun is as useful as no gun at all.
Zimmerman is never going to mistaken for the next Einstein, but the notion that he would wait until getting out on foot to stand there in the dark and the rain juggling a phone and a flashlight to go through the whole “work the slide, eject the magazine, fish around in your pockets for that extra bullet, put it in the magazine, and put the magazine back in the gun” routine is one that only makes sense to those who don’t find the sound of someone trying to get one of those stupid AA cell flashlights to work to be “ominous” and “sinister” and “foreboding” enough.
If it’s only someone banging a flashlight, the soundtrack of the movie isn’t dramatic enough.
unitron
In less than 25 action packed minutes filled with a loathsome and dangerous suspected-to-be-armed-villain and madman killer child martial arts expert, Phogan has forgotten that he took his wife’s weapon, which is packed to the hilt and ready to fire, loaded with especially deadly “sure kill” hollow point bullets.
That’s the story GZ is selling, and I’m having a difficult time, thinking that a jury is likely to believe it. Not that the jury will ever get to hear that version. I think MOM is best advised to do whatever it takes, to keep that version from in front of the jury, even at significant cost to his planned defense.
Lonnie………Not all hollow points are equal in their destructive power….the following is an example…..Does anyone know exactly what specific type of ammo fogen used?
I’m no expert, but it does seem to me that GZ’s ammo is especially deadly because the results established by the ME is that the bullet broke into fragments, which each went in their own direction, creating extended trails of hemorrhaging tissues rather than a single trail. Likely or not so likely?
Lonnie………broke into pieces?……….cheap hollow points…..
lonnie – in regards to your comments about the hollow points – that is precisely what they are designed to do.
Faux…..I disagree….watch the video I posted…….the bullet remains intact…..although doubled in diameter.
as i understand it, some are designed to expand (as you noted) but others are intended to fragment. i can look through my notes to see precisely what gz used, but i believe it was the fragmenting variety.
mind you, i am old school with weapons and ammo – i have a 5 shot H&R center load .38 with nothing fancy about it. it is what i am most comfortable shooting and it has served me well in times of need.
Lonnie……The basic purpose of a hollow point is for the bullet to EXPAND in diameter on hitting the target….up to double the diameter of the bullet when fired……..NOT to detonate like a grenade on impact.
BTW….hollow points are outlawed by the Geneva Convention for use in warfare………..
Bombs….grenades….all OK…..just don’t shoot the enemy with hollow points…….Gee….how thoughtful of them?
Yeah I got that, so GZ’s cheap ammo was more anti personnel/fragmentary device. Making it extraordinarily deadly.
“Yeah I got that, so GZ’s cheap ammo was more anti personnel/fragmentary device. Making it extraordinarily deadly.”
The reason for the average person carrying for self-defense or for a cop to use hollow points is not to increase damage to the target, although they do have that effect, but to decrease the risk of collateral damage.
When a hollow-point hits the target, it’s supposed to stop there. A regular bullet has a good chance of going right on through the target and hitting whatever or whoever is right behind it.
That’s usually not a desired outcome.
unitron
People have to remember that the gun racking noise is over a cell phone with a tiny mic. and from a distance. The test sound is with far superior equipment, making it slightly different.
Malisha, there were 6 in the clip, 1 in the chamber and 1 was fired for a total of 8.
It is not illegal in Florida to carry a chambered bullet in a firearm regardless of whether the carrier is LE or a civilian.
I used to be on the fence on this one until Whonze and Shannoninmiami (wouldn’t both make a good couple?) agreed with each other that GZ said “coon”. Whenever these two are in agreement regarding an issue, the chance of an error is zero, 🙂
lol!
@Searchingminds, GZ “IS” THE DOG in this case period! he said the words FUCKING COONS and, for anybody to say it was something different, I don’t know what to say about them. as I have said before, I have no special equipment when I listen to that *HORRIBLE* recording but, I hear him plain and simple say those words and he definitely didn’t say PUNKS!
Zimmerman uttered Fking coons. Full stop!
At trial, two audio experts will testify that GZ said “fucking coons”. The Prosecution will make the case to the jury that expert testimonies have GZ saying “fucking coons”. GZ has at least admitted to saying “fucking punks”. You may decide for yourselves who you believe – GZ who has a dog in the fight and has lied consistently throughout the investigation and trial, or very experienced, world renowned experts with impeccable records. In any case, the prosecution has met its burden of proving the second element of 2nd degree murder beyond reasonable doubt. “Fucking coons” and “fucking punks” have the same legal consequence in any 2nd degree murder case: depraved mind.
Question, are jurors allowed to listen and decide for themselves what they hear? Isn’t that almost like testing the evidence themselves, like smelling an air sample in evidence to decide it it would smell like x or y? Jurors may not hear sounds because they have a deficit in hearing ability that they may not even realize.
I think Corey used “punks” because Fogen admitted to “punks” and “punks” is all you need for “depraved mind” and “malice or ill will.” I’d have gone with “punks” too, in her situation.
When the cops stop someone for speeding and tell them they believed they were going 95 in a 55 zone, and ask, “How fast did YOU think you were going?” and the driver answers, “about 70,” the ticket can say “70” and they’ll be nailed for speeding; having admitted it. Since Fogen admitted “punks” I would go with it and say, “there’s malice; there’s ill will; there’s a depraved mind.”
malisha – i made the same statement early on in this thread regarding why corey used ‘punks’ (it is what gz admitted to saying), it was damaging enough and used the speeding example to illustrate the point.
great minds think alike 🙂
Agree– charges of racism risk derailing the murder charge, and “Fucking…” before any word at all shows the agitation and ill-will, even depravity, in gz’s mind.
Never cursed in front of a woman, yaright.
Faux — I actually should have cited to your comment when I said that. It was your comment that gave me that idea — so your great mind led mine to the same conclusion. Thanks!
Searching Mind~ I’d rather spend the voice experts time on the voice analysis of the screams. THAT is way more damning than one expletive.
I agree that punks or coons or goons, none of it was said in terms of, “Oh, are you new here? Welcome to the neighborhood.” And as far as some machine telling me what I hear, medical transcriptionists have now become editors for voice recognition, which we affectionately call “voice wreck.”
But yeah, I’ll trust my ears and I agree, that regardless of what he said, in combination with the part about these assholes, they always get away…
____________________
I’m re-posting this from yesterday – because I trust my ears:\
Rachael says:
March 11, 2013 at 12:22 pm
That is good in theory – I suppose, but the reality of it just is not so.
I was actually going to give much more rise to the theory of the word being goon because of the merging sounds of fuckinGoon – so that was what I was ready to hear when I listened, thinking for certain that would be what I heard because of the way the sounds would merge and because I had already now made myself hear it in my head.
However, when I listened, I VERY clearly heard fucking coon. I did not have to listen again, it was clear as a bell the very first time. As someone who has listened to audio for a living for the last almost 20 years, I believe my ears and I know what I heard.
Like I said, in theory, your story makes sense, but when you actually listen, there is nothing, absolutely NOTHING that even remotely sounds like punks.
Again, I could understand goon/coon – similar sounds, especially with a word ending in ING in front of it – but there is NO way to get punk out of it. None. There is nothing in there that even remotely resembles punk. There is no p sound from the merging of KINGOON sounds, there is no uh sound like you would hear in pUHnk and there is no oo sound (like coon or goon) in punk.
After 20 years, I trust my ears.
It is not illegal in Florida to carry a chambered bullet in a firearm regardless of whether the carrier is LE or a civilian.
Sorry, posted in the wrong spot.
“It is not illegal in Florida to carry a chambered bullet in a firearm regardless of whether the carrier is LE or a civilian.”
I think there’s something in there about not transporting loaded rifles and shotguns in vehicles, but can find nothing about concealed carry pistols.
It does seem that if they could charge Zimmerman for that they would have.
unitron
Florida Statute 790.25 (p)(5)
POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.—Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as provided in s. 776.012.
My understanding is that it is legal to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun as long as it is secure in the conveyance. You cannot have the rifle on your lap or on the passenger seat. T
There is no indication that having a chambered bullet in a long gun is illegal.
Having said that, I have my doubts about whether SPD would have arrested Zimmerman even if it were illegal to have a chambered bullet. There was no will to arrest him.
“There was no will to arrest him.”
We all seem to agree on that, but nothing in the statute you posted addresses the condition of the firearm, that is “cocked and locked”
Last year I had possession of the FL handgun laws handbook loaned to me by a customer of mine who lived in FL. His dad is a police officer near Sanford, my dad was a cop for almost 30 years.
I posted quotes from that handbook at least 30 times last year for the Zidiots and it stated it is is unlawful to carry a concealed weapon in these conditions (A) (B) (C) etc. I don’t have the book at the moment having returned it BUT several CCW owners from FL and quite a few police officers here and elsewhere confirmed it. At least one person here remembers it.
The reason is obvious. Even the police cannot carry that way, it’s far to dangerous…..even the Feds can’t. My son’s godfather and a few customers of mine, including his ex – partner have all stated that is the Law.
Was that handbook one other than
“Florida Firearms — Law, Use & Ownership”
by Jon H. Gutmacher, Esq. ?
unitron
I had a copy of that garbage also. That “Lawyer” writes like a high school freshman. Wrong book.
But he does say you are responsible for all actions if you use a firearm.
I did not quote the statute in its entirety, but here it is:
http://flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/790.06
My understanding is that as long as the loaded firearm is properly secured in a conveyance or concealed on one’s person, it is legal to carry it regardless of whether it has a chambered bullet. If it were not legal, the statute would address it.
@ay2z
Yep you’re right.
The clip is no longer viewable. : (
http://newblackman.blogspot.com/2012/04/do-i-have-to-put-my-kid-in-tuxedo-van.html
Yeah, but I know where it is! It’s the Bill Maher and guests video, you know…. where Maher gets a good chuckle up front, at the Zimm’s expense.
@ay2z
THANK YOU FOR POSTING!!!!
you are most welcome! It’s time to re-visit some of these ‘standards’. 🙂
@ay2z
Yes, we should!!!
yes, thank you for posting. that is one clip i had not seen. van jones is delightful. even the token republican on the panel was reasonable and did not consider obama’s statement about ‘if i had a son …’ to be anything but positive. i remember how i felt when i heard obama say that and found it touching beyond belief – i have never understood those who would twist those words into anything sinister.
Faux McCoy- president Obama could say the weather was nice and there would be haters twisting that into a climate change mandate!
Sent from my iPod
@cielo62
>>>president Obama could say the weather was nice and there would be haters twisting that into a climate change mandate
Nah… they would say he was responsible for GLOBAL WARMING.
lol
@fauxmccoy
I couldn’t stop the tears when I heard Potus say that.
likewise, SG – it was heartfelt truth the man was stating. i’m sure he is thankful every day that he has daughters because if he did have a son, that son (like trayvon) would be handsome, smart, and tall – all of which are perceived to be threats in a bigot’s mind.
Which Black kids did GZ mentor?
J
oe Oliver: (see the videos above posted by ay2z, at 1:29 pm)
“As far as what happened with George before I met him, for me that’s irrelevant, because whatever happened before I met him, he grew immensely from it to be a kind, gentle, giving and caring individual – on whom I trusted with my own child”.
Might Joe Oliver’s children be the Black kids mentored by GZ? Given what happened with W9, should Joe Oliver be having a conversation with is “17yrs old daughter”? Are Joe Oliver’s children considered “Black”?
typo – one (not on) whom I trusted with my own child”.
Aha … worth serious consideration.
Well, he says he trusted his daughter with the nameless one, wonder if he shoulda done that?
Osterman said Shellie and her hubby ‘did nothing but’ spend all their time and money to mentor black kids.
What money? Oh, you mean the money these deadbeats should have been using to pay rent, utilities and other basics? Plus, I’m still curious about what wisdom this pair of grifters thought they possessed to share …
trained observer says
all i can say is that i have quite a long list of what i would not want them to teach my children. i started to list them, but it’s easier to say ‘take a good long look at these folks, kids — if you’re smart, you’ll never do anything like they do”
Wisdom isn’t quite the right word to apply to these folks, and if Osterman isn’t gullible, he’s just like the killer, anger issues. (if you watch Osterman’s Fox interview, take a freeze frame of his facial expression, looks like pure momentary rage, when he talks about Billy Lee being fired.
Back to the money, here’s the MO’man quote (context Dr. PHil, MO’man says his friend wasn’t going to do things, like assault, manhandle cops and go drinking anymore, ie: wasn’t food or rent money, it was drinking money he was saving!).
Now this reveals something, doesn’t it? Osterman says “innocent youth”. So, the children they allegedly mentor, are innocent while young but when older, they lose their innocence by some unavoidable condition that makes the killer react the way he did to Trayvon? What is Osterman about, and were they two of a kind, feeding each other’s racism? Osterman hasn’t even got a basic grasp of English grammar, and shows anger when you watch him speak about certain things.
The killer’s “token white friend”– right.
*note the quote is pretty accurate to what Osterman said and how he spoke, bad grammar and all, except for the typo on ‘Nothing’. Emphasis added on ‘THOSE’ was because Osterman’s voice emphasized ‘those’ people.
On Osterman’s grammar woes (as per his Dr. Phil appearance) … if he gets called to the stand, forget worrying about whether jurors are black or white.
MOM better hope none of them are English teachers only too happy to write O off with a big fat F..
@ LLMPapa
Suggestion for reason #7: ‘The Shoes’ (the tips: smeared with dried dirt and grass. The back: squeaky clean).
Pleeeeeeease.
Yeah…. like these boots? Lyin’ when you outta be truthin”
LLMPapa, the best response to the punk-fest shillaree of yesterday! Excellent summation!
There’s that Duper’s smirk
@Tzar
Thanks for posting.
That explains it.
Contemptuous smirk, practiced speech, no movements, no real feeling, no sorrow, changes in tense.
Notice the pursed lips as Hannity asks him if he had a conscious thought when he shot Trayvon, looks like anger, then he explains away, and does the ‘grin’ like a shit eating dog, to quote today’s LLMPapa video note.
(video clip on this page, again Hannity interview used)
http://www.bodylanguagesuccess.com/2012/07/nonverbal-communication-analysis-2050.html
The POS smirked and smiled for the camera during that interview, and now the POS is sitting/standing in court crying. Karma is a real BITCH Fogen and, you haven’s cried all you’re going to before all is said and done. he cried like a BIG OVERGROWN baby when he was locked up the first time and that was just jail. I can’t imagine how he will react when he is convicted and face going to prison.
He will lose it totally and, he may really need that adult size diaper that his lying brother speaks about when this first happened. you all know this is what he said after not speaking to his brother for SEVERAL years.
When did he cry in court?
One question: Does anyone really think that, if GZ did not have that gun with him when he left his truck, that he would have been found dead on the grass that night when the police arrived? Him dead with Trayvon Martin doing what? Fleeing?
lonnie – that reminds me of something a favorite poster of mine said on the huffpost early on in this case … ‘so the watchman chased the unarmed teen all over the complex in self defense?’
i have loved that phrase and quote it as often as i can.
@Lonnie Starr. If GZ did not have a gun when he got out of his truck, and still decided to pursue and confront Trayvon, the police would have arrived to find Trayvon crying for help and GZ fleeing.
I don’t think FogenPhoole would have even called the police, let alone get out of his schruck and confront anyone.
He was on a mission that night.
Yeah but GZ wasn’t the one to pick the target. Someone else had been working on this project for a long time. The target they had been picking were being objected to and like Burgess, were being pulled out of harms way by being taken off the streets where possible. Finally, just by luck Trayvon arrived and whomever was behind all of this gave the go ahead. The plan to lure Trayvon out of the house on Sunday night was made operational, and they got George all liquored up and medicated and ready to go. They pointed GZ in the right direction, then had to stick around to ensure that he could catch his target, because lord knows GZ is no hunter. They had to practically put the kid in his hands and all but pull the trigger themselves. Once done the managed to “vanish” into the back ground, assuring GZ that strings had been pulled all the way to the top. Sure enough GZ kept his mouth shut about the others and got his walk, until the word got out.
Now that the fix has come undone, GZ has only fear for what might happen if he should talk. Meanwhile they keep telling him the Calvary is coming so hold tight.
We had this discussion last month and I see we still agree. He was on a mission. One day we’ll find out exactly who else……one day.
III=> Tick – Tock <=III
Here’s GZ planning to go shopping, as he says that he and his wife do every Sunday. He leaves home, but without any money? Then we learn that his wife, who normally goes with him to the store, isn’t even home?
Later we learn that MO is at the crime scene poking around while GZ is still there, sitting in the police car. Where is Shellie? Shouldn’t she be there? MO says that he “drafted” in behind her, when he coincidentally caught up with her, just before she coded herself in the back gate.
So let’s see. GZ asks a bystander to call his wife, and by some stroke of luck, after she calls MO, they wind up at the rear gate together. But, I don’t remember reading about her being in the crime scene like MO. So, either I’m missing something or MO didn’t draft in behind Shellie.
I’m convinced Osterliar was there already. I’m so sure of that I’d bet the farm. Phone Records…..Text Messages…..I’m sure he’s the one who was near Brandi’s house by design or coincidence, it matters not at the moment, who made sure Trayvon was sheparded back towards Fogen. Something keeps telling me that.
He’d be the one Fogen looked up to and be in some bs position to assure Fogen he’d get away with it. I could be wayyyyyyyy off, but when I run my theories and thoughts by my guys, I rarely get a “…naaaaaa, try again”
I’m convinced by the enhanced NEN call he had someone in his truck with him. When he slurs his words, it’s because he is distracted by someone there, not the medication. One of my guys also tells me the gun racking sound is a gun racking sound. The only difference is because the demo is with good equipment, the NEN call is an itty – bitty cell phone microphone. It’s quality, not a different sound……just better quality. I have mics for my PA that have that much of a differtence. Guitar pick – ups, effects pedals. Sound quality I know.
I’m with you on that. Mechanical devices not only have distinctive sounds that one can recognize them by. But they also have distinctive sound patterns that allows them to be recognized even when the expected frequencies aren’t present.
Say you have an item one, it’s a gun and it’s pattern is three distinctive clicks in a very close array, with the last one being just a bit louder and later than the other two clicks.
So, now, there’s a person out in the dark on a back lawn, they’re carrying a flashlight a phone and a gun. A mic picks up what sounds like that three click pattern. Do you suppose it might be the flashlight? Or that someone came out and tapped on a bowl with a spoon to offer a snack? I mean, sure there are a unimaginably long list of possible substitutes that could have created that same pattern, even if not so simply. But, it’s one hell of a lot more rational to imagine the gun being racked, either by the person or someone nearby with a similar item, than it is to imagine that the circus somehow showed up and produced this sound as one among many without the other sounds being heard.
Someone analyzed that sound and said that it could not be GZ racking the gun, because GZ would have had his hands full. Well, that doesn’t cover all the possibilities, since it could also be someone nearby either racking a similar weapon, or racking a different weapon that gives a somewhat similar sound.
Why suppose there is anyone else involved? Well, GZ has already told one very big lie about spotting Trayvon at Taaffe’s, and the reason he does this is to hide the fact that others were involved. Since, if he had coincidentally spotted Trayvon there, then no one would be left trying to guess why GZ begins hunting for Trayvon, before Trayvon has become visible to him.
GZ doesn’t want to admit to being notified because that means he’s on NW. But, because he carrying a weapon and because he’s following a suspect, he cannot claim the statutory protections that Florida’s law has provided for NW’er’s.
Trouble is, because he’s in no position to claim legal NW protection provided by statute, he is also in no position to claim protection under SYG or SD either, because, the only way to lose your NW protection is, you have to be the aggressor!
One of the “experts” who said Fogen could not possibly have charged his pistol because he didn’t have enough hands I shredded. You can push the slide against almost any object, like your hip ?? and slide the handle to rack it. I did just that with all of my pistols to prove it before I even responded.
Race……A good way to put a bullet through your foot also……
No argument here. There was a shootout involving cops and a bank holdup and the news crew caught on of the cops who had his right hand or wrist shot and twice he dropped the mag out and loaded and racked one handed.
Which says that those could very well be pistol handling sounds we hear on the NEN tape. There is certainly a whole lot of unexplained sounds, for a lone person moving around, without any intent to do anything more than walk around.
If GZ is such a truth teller, why hasn’t he, or didn’t he offer to explain all these strange sounds? Surely he had to hear them, since they appear on his very own call recordings.
Instead of telling the police the truth about the events, he attempts to paint a very different picture, until other evidence, unexpectedly obtained from that night, forces him to attempt to change his story.
Even a witness who attempts to support GZ’s fable of the nights events, insists that his story is the truth, until he’s confronted with newly discovered evidence, he never believed would be discovered. Then he too is forced to make dramatic alterations to his once vigorously asserted testimony. Leaving GZ alone with his assertions of a fictitious engagement, that forms the foundation of his self defense claims.
Well said and you are reading my mind. I see SM has a problem with all of us, especially you and I agreeing on things.
Lonnie- but why Trayvon? Bad luck? Wrong place at the wrong time?
Sent from my iPod
That is what is so difficult to figure out. I’ve gotten the points laid out for us to pick up, by people who have dug pretty deeply into the community and the towns affairs. There was a couple of things going on, that could have used a target to emphasize and/or create a message to be controlled. There appears to have been quite a bit of money in the offing as well. So that could also be a motive, above and beyond the mere hatred that Supremacist normally carry.
“Mechanically” the only cause that appears to be proximal, seems to be a rather strange sequence of events surrounding 2/6/12 and 2/7/12 involving Burgess, Ransberg (the white) and the two other blacks in the “crew”, coupled with the recovery of a 3k laptop and a widescreen phone that the SPD claims was being used to traffic in stolen merchandise. I mean wow, any number of scenarios might yield a motive for someone being killed over that. Including someone who had nothing to do with any of it at all, being point to as a “fall guy”.
Since I can’t believe that GZ did not know that attacking a NW person, in the performance of their duties or on their way to or from meetings, was a state crime, I can no longer assert that GZ killed Trayvon to escape detection of his folly in apprehending him.
So now I need something more, and that is and will be much more difficult to find. But to the top of my list now is that Trayvon was being used by someone as a fall guy, to cover up their own mistakes or failures and such. It would go something like, perhaps: Ransberg having lost the 3k laptop and phone, is afraid to admit it to GZ, so instead he blames it on somebody else, not want to alert GZ that the police have it and setting off some other unwanted reaction. So as the month drags on, Ransberg is stalling GZ and Burgess is reporting it to his handler. The cops figure out that Burgess is likely to be discovered as a snitch so they “pull him”. Later on in the month Ransberg discovers Trayvon’s arrival at RATL and decides this will be his fall guy, so he gives Trayvon up to GZ as the guy who stole the widescreen cell phone, GZ must have it back because his stuff is on there. So, Ransberg, who I’ve tracked down to probably living with Burgess, is in an ideal position to set Trayvon up.
So, a theory would go something like that, but of course, there’s very little to no evidence for any of that and there are a zillion other speculations that could be as possible or work even better. We’ll just have to wait and see. It’s too bad the way things happen, that an ongoing bit of trouble could cause a killing days weeks or even months later. But that’s the way things work. Maybe the SP got lucky and managed to track down Ransberg through Burgess and the SPD still had that wide screen phone. Of course, if the police were recovering it on behalf of one of their numbers, who they had reason to believe the name of whom was appearing in ways that it should not, then the phone is probably gone.
The best way to proceed in this case is to first get GZ buried, then drag him back and pile on more, so his 30 years becomes something like 75 or 80, then maybe he’ll decide he’d best talk.
@Tzar, go look at the fith video that stateoftheinternet posted on You/tube at the 02/05/13 hearing where his motion to continue his trial was denied and you will see it. also, go to Ben “Justice 4 Trayvon” Crump’s facebook page or it’s either on dothprotesttomuch’s facebook page and there is another photo of him in court crying. in Trent’s video #5, his baby sitter stands in frot of him so that the camera doesn’t get a very good view of him crying but, it’s there none the less.
thanks
“Since I can’t believe that GZ did not know that attacking a NW person, in the performance of their duties or on their way to or from meetings, was a state crime, I can no longer assert that GZ killed Trayvon to escape detection of his folly in apprehending him.”
Lonnie,
But, why would GZ even be covered by this law? First of all, he did not verbally identify himself as NW, and he was not visually identifiable as such (no uniform associated with the post, and apparently no badge or other id).
Second, and even more importantly, by leaving his truck and following Trayvon, especially with a gun, he was doing what NW rules specifically warn NOT to do. One would hope that this would mean that his actions could not be considered “in the performance of his duties” as a NW person.
That is exactly right, he isn’t covered by this law, nor should he be covered by it. But…
Since all it requires, to obtain coverage by it, is a claim that he identified himself. Without a homicide to raise the temperature of any investigation, it’s entirely likely that police efforts to suppress the matter would succeed. Things could have been ended with a round of apologies and promises not to do it again. Meaning that had detaining Trayvon been all GZ had intended to do, this law provided him with an easy to reach escape hatch. His word against Trayvon’s word that he had identified himself and he’s off Scot free.
That means that he either did not want to identify himself, or he wanted to kill or both. So, this law, mean to defend NW’s actually cripple the rogue NW’s because it offers them cover, but only if they identify themselves. Making GZ’s failure to identify himself ever more suspicious and devastatingly incriminating.
Here we had been thinking that identifying himself as NW was necessary to prevent Trayvon from continuing to fear him. Now, we discover it was also necessary for fogen to obtain the additional protection the law was offering him. So that now, not only did he maintain and escalate a dangerously hostile condition he created, he also slapped aside the laws protection of himself, by refusing to identify himself as well. Thereby heaping failure on top of failure to obtain this criminal outcome.
I am not a violent person, but when I see that smirk, I want to slap it into next week. That smirk just does something to me inside that I can’t explain but makes me SOOOOOOOO angry!
@Rachael
You and me both.
X 3 -4 – 5 – and Jeff makes it unanimous here at the present time at 6 more.
Me too, Rachael.
His brother shows the same smirk when he does interviews. The entire family is truly evil. They have no remorse and are so sure that this will blow over.
Fogenhats and Junior have the same evil sinister smile this sadistic murderer did in Hong Kong, known as “Emperor”. He started a gang and tortured a kid to death for trying to get one of his victims to go to the cops.
That’s a shiz-eating grin all right. That’s one of those guilt grins.
It’s the grin of a full blown narcissist.
Any idea as to how many diagnosable mental disorders he has ??
My hope is that judge Nelson will simply consider the right to the hearing waived, if not held 45 days before trial as she ruled. I don’t see how this would be a trial or post trial motion. It was designed to prevent a trial from happening if found. Only by being heard before trial, can it fulfill this privilege.
The problem is the SYG statute creates a legal right or statutory right to an immunity hearing without providing a deadline within which to assert that right and a procedure to claim it.
Constitutional rights can be waived, so there is no question that the statutory right to an immunity hearing can be waived.
Failing to file a timely motion requesting an immunity hearing should constitute a waiver, but the absence of a deadline complicates figuring out what constitutes “timely.”
He cannot risk an immunity hearing.
IF he WINS IT, well and good, he gets away.
But if he LOSES IT, the trial is just a formality, because
* if immunity fails that means it was NOT self-defence
* he has admitted to doing the killing
THEREFORE it could only be MURDER.
He is better off just doing the trial and hope the jury can be confused enough to let him off.
I think an immunity hearing can be appealed because jeopardy has not attached
The SYG hearing does not determine if the person is convicted or not, therefore, it can be appealed
I think anyways LOL
I am really hoping that Judge Nelson will grant a hearing – because, among others, (a) GZ will go first in presenting evidence; (b) that will catapult GZ to the stand even before the trial starts; (c) GZ will be vanquished on the stand; (d) not taking the stand will have the same effect as being vanquished on the stand (e) immunity will be denied; (f) the prosecution is even better prepared, and can use his testimony at the immunity hearing during the trial, etc. ; (g) denial will send crippling shockwaves through the cult of GZ’s supporters; (h) the defense will be in disarray and heading towards an iceberg.
I think MOMs team is insinuating that GZ will be acquitted therefore the post trial immunity hearing is to protect GZ from civil liability, like what happened with OJ. Cleared of murder but owing millions in wrongful death judgements. GZ wants to be acquitted and keep all his ill gotten goodies.
Sent from my iPod
Of course O’ Mara has it wrong. The law says clearly that he must seek Immunity before a criminal trial. If he looses that he can be sued no matter what the criminal trial result is. he cannot get Fogen found not guilty THEN file for Immunity.
George Zimmerman, you say you killed Trayvon Martin because you feared for your life, what you have yet to understand is that the fight and fear for your life is still on going. You now have to accept the fact that you must continue the fight you started on Feb. 26, 2012. You no longer have the use of your gun to defend your life. You must now get in the box and tell what you say is your truth, no matter how it is accepted; you must claim and honor the defense you so proudly acted out when you shot and killed Trayvon Martin. You must understand that your near to death experience is not going to end until you explain away all of what you consider to be the misinterpretation and mispresentaion of the events you claimed occured on that dreadful night. Only you George can tell the truth of how your head was injured, your nose bloodied, how you were close to losing conscientiousness due to being smothered by your victim, while maintaining the ability to conscientiously pull your gun and shoot your victim through the heart. Yet there is no dna on your victim from his brutal attack to your person. Explain to us all how you shot your victim with no remorse for his cries to live. Only you George can help us all to understand why this act of murder was necessary when you knew the police were enroute. Be the man of honor and pride you displayed on that night and make us all look foolish for not believing your retelling of events; that you must now fight to keep your life and freedom…A life and freedom you stole from Trayvon Martin…Again I say Get in the BOX George…Fear not the views and opinions of man, state what you claim your truths to be before the God you say willed you to live and Trayvon to die…for if it is GODS will, then you will maintain your freedom, resume your life knowing that you told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, proving to us all that it is within GODS will that you not suffer the ill wills of man. Step out on that faith you spewed on the Hannity show. Now is the time for you to fight for your life. Man up and get in the BOX. I want to hear it from you directly in front of the judge and the jury, I want you to answer the questions, filling in the blanks, correcting the misunderstandings of your many statements. Get in the BOX George and defend yourself without your gun, fight for your life and your freedom the way Trayvon Martin did on that dark and rainy night when you took his life, the night the earth cried out in sorrow for the death of an innocent being for he too was GODS SON. George you believe your fight is with mans justice, but it is not, it is with GODS justice and I’ve never seen GODS justice fail. Your dark and rainy night awaits you George, on Feb. 26, 2012, you started a fight with GOD and he’s coming to finish it. You say Trayvon Martin punched you in the nose and knocked you on your ass, well you wait until Gods finishes “taringdatassup” you’ll know not to use his name to justify your wills and false prophecies.
I want to see you get up from this fight with a smug shrug and that sneaky grin.
Even if GZ doesn’t go to prison, he will never be free. God’s plan? Karma? Consequence? As it should be when you take the life of another and have no regrets.
Outstanding!
Good post!
Beautifully stated, an amazing post that shouldn’t be lost in the comment pile, but brought forward often.
Thank you
Romaine/ so eloquent and yet you know that GZ never does anything for himself! Doesn’t work to support himself, doesn’t explain himself, heck he can’t even cook for himself! Don’t be disappointed when he expects MOM to speak for him, even when it is not allowed.
Sent from my iPod
WOW, Romaine, YES!
I want a bumper sticker: Get in the BOX, George!
Great post!
GZ does not have to be a saint, he can do wrong, he can lie
But TM has to be a saint in order to have the right to live
Actually, the most powerful reason why I engage in the search for justice for Trayvon is because he was a SAINT! I have searched and found no fault with him. See, “he ran”. He did not walk away. No. “He ran” – in an effort to diffuse the situation and avoid trouble. Who does that?
Does anyone know if Fogen’s fingerprints were found on Trayvon’s button?
Oooh, good question. I bet they never even checked.
Do you think it’s too late to look for fingerprints or palm prints on the button? I really would like to know the forensic status of the button…
Aside from not knowing the status of the button forensics eating ate me, I keep wondering why Fogen never said Trayvon appeared to be talking to himself? Fogen obviously didn’t see the earpiece because Trayvon had his hoodie on. Dee Dee did say Trayvon was speaking to her while Foggen was staring at him? If that’s so, Foggen would’ve had to have seen Trayvon’s mouth moving. My point is, Foggen seen everything on Trayvon, except his mouth moving… How can that be? My mind can go alot of places when, I think about all the false/negative assumptions Foggen would’ve made of Trayvon talking to himself.
I believe that’s why Fogen said “he looks like he’s on drugs or something.” Trayvon probably looked a bit odd walking along talking and perhaps even gesturing as he talked to W8.
There does not have to be any reason for Fogen to say “He looks like he’s on drugs or somepin” to Sean at NEN; Fogen was lying and creating his fantasy. Reality was not in issue.
Prosecutors have some type of protection I remember a case about a kid named Shareef Cousin where they had video of him at a basketball game at the time of the murder and witnesses and they still charged and convicted this 16yr old of murder. They even put him on death row. The prosecutor hid 3 of the witnesses across the street and they couldn’t be found to testify, then altered the time on the video. Then 3yrs later when the cat was out the bag and the judge said release him, the prosecutor offered a plea deal for life instead of death row if he confessed, which I believe he took.
This prosecutor got a 3week deferred disbarment which never happened because he became a judge. How would you like to be a defendant in his courtroom? If you’re willing to put an innocent 16yr to death under the guise of justice, this makes you worse than any murderer out there.
Who was the prosecutor in the Shareef Cousin case?
Where was that?
OT: In the final chapter, today, of the scandal that pulled down former Mayor of Detroit Kwame Kilpatrick, the feds got 24 convictions on 30 counts, including corruption, racketeering, extortion and wire fraud. His best friend B. Ferguson was convicted on 9 of 11, and Kilpatick’s dad was found guilty of filing false taxes. Kilpatrick’s mother, who was a US Congresswoman at the time, was never implicated in any wrongdoing. However, she lost her seat in a failed reelection bid.
4 of IL last 7 govs. have gone to prison and we know former Congressman J. Jackson, jr and wife have just pleaded guilty, with sentences TBD.
I don’t what kind of rank and clout you need to get out from under a fed investigation – but it looks like SPD and Wolfinger might be a little short, based on the prosecutions listed above. I would be looking at getting my house in order, right about now. The feds won’t just look at Trayvon Martin’s case. They’ll use that as a starting point. (IMO)
But, just thinking how do you go after Wolfinger for corruption? What does that do for some 30 yrs. of prosecutions? Is that a nightmare even the DOJ doesn’t want to get entangled in? I don’t doubt Wolfinger is corrupt. What I wonder is, does the DOJ have more invested in it not coming to light, than in prosecuting it, given Wolfinger’s age, retired status and the unholy mess such scandal would unleash on the Florida Courts?
Hell, where’s Olivia Pope when you need her???
Hope you’re right, Nef. Wolfinger, in particular, needs to go under glare and misery of a federal probe, along with Lee and other Sanford officials who need to become unemployable and mired in debt defending their misdeeds.
Let’s look at the two characters in play, and it is strong evidence in of itself
Trayvon is a scrawny teenager who has never been in a fight in his whole life, no combat training, and had Skittles and a cellphone and some ice tea, got good grades, wrote graffiti on a locker once, may have smoked weed
Fogen beat up cops, beat up his ex, beat up a lady at his security job, molested and attempted to rape his cousin, victimized and bullied people at his job especially an Arab dude, talked about bullying and killing Mexicans and disparaging Mexicans, threatened a 8 year old boy and accused him of stealing a bike and cops confirmed the kid did not steal the bike, terrorize and threaten neighborhood and people with aggressive patrols, structure and hide money and passport, manipulate and lie to court and law enforcement, stalked and murdered a kid, had a gun and car and flashlights when stalking and murdering Trayvon
Of the two, the only person in danger of dying and great bodily harm with the kid with candy, not Fogenhats aka Wannabe Miami Vice
Is there really any male who has made it to high school without even 1 fight in their entire life?
I’m considered a good kid and I never bothered anybody, kinduv a loner and yet I got into 3 fights between 6th and 12th grade. The kids that didn’t get into fights were very friendly and social. If a “thug” like Trayvon would fight grown man that quick, he should’ve had a dozen fights in school by now to the point of being kicked out.
Rachel- yeah, my brother Nick never was in a fight in his life. In high school, he had glasses, braces and acne. Nerd to the max before being a nerd was cool. He never hit into a fight. I don’t remember fights being all that common in high school. I was much more belligerent than my brothers and I avoided fights. So I guess the fact that Trayvon was never in a fight is more the norm for normal kids.
Sent from my iPod
Is there a woman, either?
I can say that my dad was a cop and back in the 60’s that wasn’t cool having a “Pig” for a dad. I’s say almost every boy in my 1st – 8th grade class picked a fight with me about just that at one time or another. So the answer is probably, as far as boys…..at least in my school.
i spent many an afternoon waiting behind the gym for someone to come beat me up because of something i said. i was outspoken then about things i perceived as ‘wrong’ or ‘injustice’ and stood up to bullies who would pick on the autistic kid and the like. to make the decision to wait and miss my bus home meant a 10 mile walk carrying a 50 lb saxophone as i did not live in town, but was bussed in from the country.
not once did anyone show up to put their money where their mouth was. i just knew that i would not want to be thought of as the one who did not show up. when i look back, i see that my size (5’10” and 160 lbs of muscle that threw hay bales alongside the men folk all summer) may have been a deterrent. there was also a collection of boys my age who could have told the girls who threatened me not to bother showing up, because they knew the humility of picking themselves off the ground when they somehow came into contact with my fists. (honest — i don’t know how that happened) 😉
Faux McCoy~ always a soul for justice! With fists to match! 🙂
VERY well said Jun. Bravo.
I wish he’d make up his mind. He was, he wasn’t, out of the dark, out of nowhere, from the bushes……when will it ever end ?
Thought he was skipping … or maybe he was just talking about skipping SYG.
just finished the series
all caught up
great work
Barking mad to think you can change your story on a faux news op-ed program and have anyone take you seriously.
His whole claim is filled with contradictions
On the phone call he claims he was at the clubhouse
Then on re-enactment day, he claims he parked his car at the T and Trayvon ran circles (the GPS records should put that allegation down)
Yep. LOL
What made you think of Looney Tunes, Papa? 😆
Just wondering, when George is sent to lock up, will he be housed with the whites, or will Jorge be with his Hispanic Hommies, or his Afro-Peruvian kin?
He won’t fit in with any group. With a name like Zimmerman it certainly won’t be with those good old Neo Nazi’s….that’s for sure and the only other Afro – Peruvian isn’t in prison….well, unless jr commits a crime………just sayin’
He will go back to being a white person and join the neo nazis
Taffe say Zimmermain said IT’S COLD? Joe Oliver said it was GOON? I know what i heard and it was F___KING COON! Like it or not that is what Zimmerman said!
Yeah, I was thinking that. If you put the word Cold and Goon together you get the word Coon. So they know what was said but what they’re doing is field testing a LIE to see if it will stick and then they can move on with the “GZ isn’t racist” bullcrap. I was just told that if I heard the word “coon” then I must be racist. It’s just absurd to the point of comical that people wont acknowledge the truth.
If all you had to do to show you were not a racist was call some innocent kid a “fucking punk” instead of a “fucking coon,” there would BE no racists.
Damn, man, get real! (I said “greel.” I said “peel.” I said “spiel.” I said “punk.”)
All wrong !! SheLie and FogenPhoole had steak, baked potatoes and sauteed mushrooms and onions for dinner. Listen very carefully and you’ll hear a slight belch them “fucking rooms” like mushrooms. It’s coming…..some Zidiot will make that claim.
Race — Think it should be fucking shrooms to coordinate with the schruck
I’m telling ya, he belched up some stale sauteed mushrooms.
Listen carefully “…..uuurrrpp….fucking rooms…”
and, O’Mara and West once thought it was ‘GOLD’
LOL
One of the Outhousers insisted there were traffic cones in the area and Fogen tripped on a traffic cone and said, “Fucking cones.” In frustration, see? Tripped, see? Kinda like “skipped.”
Oh…..that would explain the new concrete in the MapQuest Satellite image……you know, the darker sections…just when thought we knew…..along comes a Zidiot explanation.
Oh bush, bush where arth thou?
LOL another senseless contradiction, we should play a game, what’s your favorite contradiction for 100 Alex.
I like the:
“He looked like he was almost my age, he looked older” vs “he was skipping away” when was the last time you seen a grown ass man skip?
…and thought he was a grown man?
As if apologizing to the Martin family on the stand in a flat, sociopathic affect will save his azz. As if twisting his NEN call assessment that Trayvon was in his late teens is going to fly just because he said it in a courtroom.
Meh.
Love that expression on Judge Nelson’s face. LOVE *IT* ❗
I do not understand the SYG
So only the judge can grant it in a pretrial SYG hearing, but the jury can’t grant it at a trial?
It seems the defense is all smoke and mirrors to me, even Jose Baez
Baez claimed the case was weak but he reportedly denied to be Fogen’s attorney for the trial
I also do not get if he was so sure, why not just have the SYG hearing and get it over with?
I am really confused by it all
I read the statute and considering the facts of the case and the evidence, it does not apply, just as Jeb Bush stated, and he signed off on the bloodclot statute
It does not come off as self defense to me, because, all Fogen did was chase, stalk, threaten, attack, kill, and then stage and manipulate and try to lie
How can you claim self defense when all that was done was attack?
There’s too much nonsense and no sensibility at all with this case IMO
IMO any other state or country, Fogen would be in prison and that is that, already
to June ‘m with you confused.
Be careful that you are not confusing the so-called “Stand Your Ground” provision of Florida’s Justifiable Use of Force law with it’s entirely separate immunity provision.
unitron
Professor,my questoin is: During a combined hearing will the defense argue the defendants immunity based on self defense and the jury be required to vote on the defendants immunity and or guilt of murder2? I really hope i’m making sense here
Questions like that highlight the Professor’s position that a combined process is “a terrible idea.”
Professor I see my answer in your post, I’ll have to wait and see which way the judge decides things will go. ty
On a separate note, Florida’s legislature is now contemplating changing law to require a unanimity from jury on death penalty cases.
They should abolish it, but this is a step in the right direction.
Yes. In Florida, there’s no greater argument for abolishing the death penalty than with Pitts and Lee, a flaming example of good ol’ boy racism. Thankfully these two innocent black men were saved in large part by Pulitzer prize winning investigative reporter Gene Miller of the Miami Herald. Must admit, however, that few lamented white serial killer Ted Bundy’s final date with Old Sparky at Raiford.
I still remember the crowds from Ted Bundy, for once, they said, those that supported throwing the switch on Bundy well outnumbered death penalty opponents that were gathered outside the prison.
I’m sorry to say that I believe the death penalty is applicable for psychopaths like Bundy. A life in a cage is no life at all.
Sent from my iPod
Professor, what if the jury is hung?
If the jury cannot reach a unanimous verdict, Judge Nelson will have to declare a mistrial. The prosecution would then have the option to retry the case, plea bargain with the defendant, or dismiss it.
They would have to be buried.
(Sorry, couldn’t resist)
My opinion is that it would be retried. But I meant, could the defense have their immunity hearing after a mistrial, and if they did, how will the mistrial affect the immunity hearing, if at all?
But if they were hanged we could have them cremated, right?
: – )
unitron
My cultural favorite is air burial.
Sent from my iPod
You could have made a much worse joke.
onlyIamunitron, if you ever discover Jeralyn posting her announced 15 pages assessment of the ABC audio file + witness #8 & Crump one of her obsessions from early on in the forum, I would appreciate a link or hint. Mind you to a certain degree I can understand considering her position. I am really curious:
@Romaine,
I saw that and forgot to mention it on my point above. Thanks. So you have a 70-73% chance of success, of not even going to trial, and you throw it away? It’s obvious what’s up with the defense.
It’s amazing how some people (not here) either don’t get it or are being willfully ignorant. What’s going on with the defense now is a GIGANTIC clue about the state of their case. All spin and continual media pr.
As the Prof said above (paraphrasing), why wouldn’t they go for an immunity hearing? Let’s step back for a second and consider that they would get two bites at the apple with no penalty. Meaning an immunity hearing, and if they lost, a trial. If your life was on the line wouldn’t you take as many chances as you could get? Instead they tossed one away are are trying to coverup that fact with the “combining” nonsense.
Even with the lower standard of proof, GZ is so suspect that they can’t even go there. Remember when MOM tried to have GZ testify without being crossed at a simple bail hearing!?
What should be another big clue is that, from a legal perspective, it appears that the defense hasn’t done much actual real defense work. Sure, they’ve filed plenty of mostly poorly written and reasoned motions and have gotten lucky on occasion (JL removal – though I doubt they think that now) It’s remarkable that there are still major witnesses who haven’t been deposed yet while they file going nowhere requests to the FBI and Facebook and dubious lawsuits against media entities.
Well said. In all reality an Immunity hearing should have been filed for back in May of last year. But Nooooooooooooooo !! O’ Mara knows everything, or is it Fogen knows everything.
as lonnie so eloquently states
]====>TICK TOCK<====[
a part two words not one
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-zimmerman-hearing-20130305,0,6577779.story
I know you all have or may have read thus article..I’m posting it because my view after reading it is the defense is not as confident as others perceive their case to be. The defendant doesnt want any parts of the judge, he wants his peers. George has no confidence in his own story, is not man enough to sit in the box and tell what he says is his truth.
Then there is this… “Nearly 70% of defendants using a stand-your-ground defense have gone free since the law passed in 2005, according to a Tampa Bay Times investigation. The same analysis found that the odds of proving a successful self-defense claim go up to 73% if the victim is black.” I took this from the end of the article, so I’m wondering if fact will play apart in this case or the color of the victims skin.
@Romaine. In some SYG cases, the victim and defendant were both Black. The same is true for cases where the victim and defendant are both White. If I’m not mistaken, the statistics neither include those SYG cases where the victim is not killed.
@ Xena I questioned the other portions of the stats too, i say post all or none at all. Why just give the black stats?
I will bet that in mot of those SYG cases where the defendant gets off, the victim WAS ARMED.
@Malisha
There are two I read and remember where the victims were not armed. In one case, the victim was forcing his way into the car of the person who shot him. The parties had prior knowledge of each other.
The other case involves two school boys. One had maliciously bullied the other (who was learning disabled) for months. When the one being bullied got off the bus earlier than his stop to avoid a fight with the bully, the bully got off too, started a fight, and was stabbed dead. The parties had prior knowledge of each other.
IIRC, in one case, the defendant took the gun from the victim who had threatened him with it. The parties had prior knowledge of each other.
Xena- I hope there were no repercussions for killing a bully.
Sent from my iPod
@Cielo62
None have been reported. That case involved teens. When the head is cut-off, the body has no “brain” to follow.
Some self defense cases truly are self defense. I feel bad for the teen that had to kill just to be free from living in fear. Nobody should live like that.
Sent from my iPod
At a 30% chance of failure
and to succeed at going for only 51% of evidence really says a lot about FogenHitler
So his “decision” is to try and bring reasonable doubt when there is no doubt that “he’s the guy” LOL
I wonder what Omara is going to do about the soft spoken teacher, w18
Bill, keeping one’s mouth shut is a virtue in far more than murder cases. Martha Stewart ended up doing time, not for insider trading on which she was originally accused, but for lying to a federal agent.
They are very good at getting targets to lie about something, anything, to a point where it can become entrapment. Had Stewart refused to talk before lining up a lawyer, her problems would have been minimized. Something we all should remember when making a killing in the stock market based on a tip from our plumber.
this should be a future case study of WHY you keep your mouth shut until you talk to a lawyer before answering any questions from police…….his own words are all it takes to convict him, the physical evidence in every instance shows his statements to police to be pure FICTION and a violation of the law.
well…I think it is a better case study of why we should respect other people’s civil rights and not overstep out legal authority,
I mean not all of us have:
-A beat cop buddy to tamper with witnesses, to ignore SOP and do a drug test on us, the shooter.
-A lead detective buddy, to tamper with witnesses and to win the good fight against his own conscience in order to repeatedly downgrade from the proper charges.
-A chief of police buddy covering up for us, to announce to the world that we are squeaky clean when we are not and to instruct his police department to carry out an “investigation” that would have outraged the keystone cops.
-A DA buddy to dismiss the already erroneously reduced charges and most likely with the full knowledge that our ccw was invalid.
-A Former police officer and current air marshal buddy, with experience and connections in accessing juvenile school records, which can be useful if we just shot a kid and may need some dirt leaked out about said kid, but most importantly this buddy can show up at the crime scene and direct us as to what to say to protect our interest and maybe even direct the Zeal of his former police officer buddies now running the investigation. I mean he is on a first name basis with Ole chief “billy”.
Not all of us have that
In a regular world Zimmerman-may his name be forgotten-could have been as quiet as a church mouse and he would have been arrested, drug tested, his hands tested for blood, his clothes confiscated, his car localized and confiscated, the witnesses to his crime untampered and had a real investigation carried out and he would have been told to go tell it to the judge. And as you can see even with a cold crime scene and a police department staunchly entranced and ready to defend him, the special prosecutor was still able to collect enough evidence for him to be tried and convicted, no matter how quiet he would have been.
So the takeaway from this case for me is not learn to be quiet after murdering innocent people while violating their civil rights, it’s learn to leave innocent people alone, stay in your truck, don’t touch other people’s children, offer that kid in he rain a ride, don’t be a fucking asshole!
*entrenched not entranced, lol
Lovely and eloquent.
*not do a drug test
oops
What Tzar says.
@Tzar
Well said.
Tzar Offer the kid a ride home.Of all the comments I ever read here I especially love that one.It points out fogen’s warped mind and how nice he could have been and how nice you are as we all should be.I wish somehow he could get asked why he didn’t offer the kid a ride but I know that can’t happen.
I wished pastor Terry Jones had asked the killer that when he visited him jail, It just plain seems like the Christian thing to do.
I think this is a case of making better choices
If he would have left the kid alone, the kid would still not be committing crimes and would be alive going to college, and he would still be in his truck and not worry about litigation for the rest of his life
That too. From our little window into Fogen’s life, we see a collection of poor choices that he made. Not that he always made poor choices, but he made some whoppers on 26 February, 2012.
Amen.
OOPS re above I mean Libiya.
lurker says:
March 11, 2013 at 5:10 pm
The American Thinker has an article lauding the Treepers and trumpeting their theories as fact (all the while slamming the MSM and Obama). Made me wonder if O’Mara had a connection. Article is here: http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/03/why_florida_persists_in
I dont even bother to read any of there posts on fogen.
However months an months ago I checked there site out.
An I happened to read an article written about the Ambasadors Murders an staff over in Lebanon.
It was a well written an faciating article .
Off wich I was convinced most of it was dissinformation
From far right conspiritst nutjobs.
An this was some 6 weeks beforethe exact same storys started to apear in the M S M.
An if anything not only was everything they reported factual an on point.
The true story was even worse that what Id written of as propa ganda anti Obama Hillary anti Democratic conservitve rhetoric.
So just shows you even rabid dogs can have there day.
Even a broken clock is right twice every 24 hours.
I think it starts with pt one is pappas response then pt 2 an pt 3 an concludes pt4 is order to watch them in..
peaceout.
Brandi Kansas City says:
March 11, 2013 at 3:33 pm
Colin,
I do see the recoil happening. Thanks for answering the question. We have heard much from the defense and little from the pros. Totally makes sense
Lots of people have speculated the mark across the bridge of hos nose.And bleeding may have been from recoil.
He said he used his right hand to shoot.
An it was a one handed shot with his weaker hand.
As he tells us himself he had to take carefull aim to avoid shooting his own left hand.
An since he shot Trayvon through straight through his hearts right chamber.
His left hand had to be within Trayvons chest area in order for him to have to avoid it whilst aiming.
He of course had his strong left dominant hand restraining the Child
If you havent already I urge you to watch LMPappa 4 vt carboard an bs.
Wich explains much better than I could even attempt.
How this Child Trayvon was murdered.
thats his chanell so just click on to the relevan vt.
Mind you all his vts are relevant.
He also contradicts himself in the same interview with the officer who does the stress test. Fogen makes a comment about “I knew I was on him.”, in reference to where the gun was. Then he changes that in his reenactment and other interviews saying he thought he missed and that TM was giving up.
Collin,
I have seen all of llmpappas videos I am a huge fan of his work. I think you are completely right I see it happening and I have shot that gun but would never buy the pos. I believe the compacting of it for c&c causes the major recoil it being an automatic causes it the jerk back instead of raising the arms. The height difference and the right hand issue could see it happening as you suggest ALL DAY LONG. I am no gun expert but there are not many guns I haven’t shot. Good one and very likely in my opinion.
The American Thinker has an article lauding the Treepers and trumpeting their theories as fact (all the while slamming the MSM and Obama). Made me wonder if O’Mara had a connection. Article is here: http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/03/why_florida_persists_in_the_zimmerman_prosecution.html
eh…thanks but no thanks
Evidently they don’t really “Think” over their. They have way to many facts wrong…starting with weights…..
Why Florida persists in prosecution?
Fogenhats killed a kid after stalking him and calling him a fucking punk and threatening the kid’s safety
I dont think a whole article is even necessary
I don’t know about this publication, but just reading one article and a few comments, it’s clearly a racist rag. They still take as fact all the bullshit from w6 about MMA style blows.
Sent from my iPod
Apparently the AmericanThinker hasn’t done much thinking.
I love that the Internet is forever. Now Jack Cashill will be remembered as the biggest dumbass to write about this case.
And write he will…if you made it to the bottom of this hilarity of an article it states…
Jack Cashill is working on his latest book, If I Had A Son: Race, Guns, and the Railroading of George Zimmerman
Seriously, why aren’t any intelligent people writing books about this case? THAT’S IT! Professor needs to stop blogging and start writing.
lynn says
i’m sure that is why we have not heard from fred in a couple of days. he’s writing a book! working title “I’ve Been Working on the Railrod”.
😉
Speaking of books, Amazon lists a book that’s due out later this month. The title is “Trayvon Martin, the Whole Story” and the author is Andrew B. Aames. Does anyone know anything about the book or the author?
It seems to me that the defense is making a calculated strategy based upon burdens of proof. The decision is between proving self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence (more likely than not) at a pre-trial hearing versus making the state prove NOT self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. While the preponderance of the evidence standard is the easiest one to meet, the judge has already telegraphed her decision to deny the pre-trial motion (by focusing on jury selection and seating arrangements at the trial.) The judge may change that bias later on though, because she more amenable to defense requests after the W8 fiasco. It may be a good strategy to put the burden on the state, because it is the hardest one to meet. That seems to be why BDLR exclaimed that he was “bewildered.” The state has lots of work to do in order to meet that burden.
In addition, the strategy also seems useful in that gz will not have to testify at the pre-trial hearing and give away his case. Likewise, prospective jurors will know if he failed to prove self-defense and perhaps be biased by that.
All in all, it seems that the burden one way or the other is now squarely on the state. Best of luck!
@stevie g.
Huh? Judge Nelson rendered it moot.
Not only that, the first thing the defense asked for after that was for her address again. The judge was quick to deny……for the 3rd time.
@towerflower. Yep. Like a spoiled child saying, if you won’t give me her hospital records, then give me her address. If you won’t give me her address, give me her birth certificate. If you won’t give me her birth certificate, give me the names of her parents, all her cousins, her grandparents, and an inventory of everything in her closet.
You do not appear to understand that the defense does not have to choose one or the other. It can do both and there is no valid reason to pass up the immunity hearing, if the defense has a case.
Your reference to a “fiasco” with W8 is nonsense. There is no evidence that she lied and certainly no evidence that she committed perjury. The prosecution’s case is so strong that they do not even need her to prove absence of self-defense.
You have been drinking too much Kool-Aid.
Professor,
LOL! Your posts are driving it home and some folks can’t handle it. *cabbage patch* *cabbage patch*
the ONLY reason i see to avoid an immunity hearing is they have NO defense on any level, mom knows he CANT possibly show it was self defense, ALL the evidence screams it was NOT!
so they dont want that reality known to the public before the actual trial.
‘the show must go on’ pink floyd, the wall
Citrus is a popular flavor in Florida.
no need to be insulting; we will see.
yes, understood. at least three reasons were given to back up the calculated strategy to give up the immunity hearing. numbers 4 and 5 are cost and time.
also, just to let you know, i prefer beer to the preferred drink of Jim Jones’ sycophants!
there was a fiasco? doggone it, I missed the fiasco!!! I hate it when that happens
tzar says
maybe he meant fiesta? either way, we both missed out. we are such boring wallflowers, aren’t we?
keep it up 🙂
Worse than missing the prom, for sure.
Bullshit
Sorry did mean to send this was taking to my son about stevie g comment
You got that right !! You really can’t make a “…calculated stradegy…” with nothing.
Games…they’re playing games….
Strategy? ROFL
So their strategy is massacring the media with claims and allegations and avoid having a reasonable debate towards the truth of the matter? ROFL
What w8 fiasco?
I bet MOM wont event bring it up at trial because if he goes hard toward w8 over a moot issue, he’s going to look like a hypocrite when he tries to downplay Fogenhats’ lack of hospital and medical treatment records because by using that argument, the material issue of Fogen’s “alleged Black dynamite attack injuries” and his lack of actual injuries and hospital records to back up his claims is just going to be funny when he backpeddles and attempts to sell snake oil
And what proof do they have she lied? If you make accusations with no proof, you are assuming facts not in evidence and it can be objected on those grounds
When the defense asked the state for her medical records, the state stated there were no medical records to obtain. That answer is so ambiguous, there could be a myriad of reasons they do not have them to have the defense obtain. One, the state never bothered to look it up because it is moot. Two, the witness could have refused, based on threats from Fogen’s gang members. Besides, it is a moot issue.
IMO, it is a can of worms, better left unopened LOL
I personally feel the state gave an ambiguous answer and set a trap for the defense to make a big deal out of hospital records in court, then BDLR can go “now that you bring it up, where are your medical records of proof of these alleged sustained injuries?”
You missed the “…calculated…” part.
The begging for funds was fairly “calculated” LMAO
@ stevie g. re:
That is downright defamatory!
You sound very opinionated but simultaneously woefully uninformed and/or illogical.
Judges are SUPPOSED TO plan for trials on their dockets. That’s their job! The fact that Judge Nelson is doing her job is to her credit – not evidence of any “bias.” She has not “telegraphed” anything other than that this case is proceeding towards a trial.
EARTH TO STEVIE G: The defense HAS NOT MADE any per-trial motion to dismiss on immunity grounds. Absent such a defense motion, logistical preparation for the trial is entirely appropriate – and definitely not evidence of bias!
SMH.
I leave and then come here to take a peek. All I can say is that this case still sickens me and leaves me feeling weak. I don’t even want to imagine what the parents, other family members, and friends feel. All I can hope is that my belief in a just and loving God is not in vain.
Brandi Kansas City says:
March 11, 2013 at 2:18 pm
Colin,
How does gz get the swollen nose and scratches
Scratches easy pitch black even if his torch was working.
He wouldnt have it on as flashlight would possibly alert Trayvon of his presence.
He could well have seen Trayvon heading up the path dog walk.
Talking on his hands free an he heard or heard the ringtone either way.
He joggs to the street he admitted to seeking an adress at forget its name at mo.
He take a sharp right an runs along to get level or just in font of Trayvon by useing the cut throughs beetween every thirn apartment.
Those are full of sapplings head hight so scratches ocour.
Confronts Trayvon blocks path home chase short an the wresstleing struggling unsues.
He shot one handed an recoil could account for swollen nose.
One things for sure wasnt Trayvon a kind of glad he didnt as the lack of any DNA Proves none of the things fogggen says occoured could have ocoured.
Forensics dont lie fogen does nothing but.
Colin,
I do see the recoil happening. Thanks for answering the question. We have heard much from the defense and little from the pros. Totally makes sense.
I actually have witnessed someone breaking their nose from recoil.
What was the person shooting? How was he/she holding the gun? Did the person have any prior shooting experience?
I’ve always been very skeptical about this theory. The 9mm Luger cartridge just doesn’t kick that hard, even when fired from a lightweight pistol like the killer’s (and the killer, a pretty sturdy looking guy at the time of the shooting, apparently had had plenty of practice with it.
@Dave – There’s lots on the internet about the KelTec PF-9 (I think that was the killer’s weapon) significant recoil. Also, the killer by his own accounts used only one hand when he fired the gun.
I’d also be interested in seeing your source(s) of information that the killer “apparently had had plenty of practice with [the gun].”
Groans- didn’t osterman say that he and GZ spent plenty if time shooting together at the gun range?
Sent from my iPod
Yes he did.
Yes and MO also says they practiced once monthly in the back yard at his place.
Is that legal in FL?? Most states have laws that prohibit discharging a firearm outside for any reason other than self defense.
Hi groans!
According to Mark Osterman, he and the killer used to practice together at a local range pretty regularly. Seeing that Osterman is an experienced police officer, I think it’s safe to assume that he showed the defendant at least the rudiments of shooting. I can’t recall whether this information came from an Osterman police interview, TV interview or his book.
As for the recoil from the 9mm cartridge, my knowledge comes from personal experience of firing hundred of rounds through a small. lightweight pistol (a Star BKS “Starlight”). It isn’t bad at all. The 9mm Luger cartridge has been in production since 1908 when it was adopted by the German army and is now the standard pistol and submachinegun cartridge of most of the world’s armed forces, largely because of its easily managed recoil.
The handgun was always considered a one-hand weapon until 30 or 40 years ago when the use of a two-handed stance gradually became standard, largely through the influence of writer and teacher Jeff Cooper (a prominent advocate of the .45 ACP, a far more powerful cartridge than the 9mm) as well as the popularity at the time of Magnum-class revolvers. With a medium strength cartidge like the 9mm, a two-handed grip is mainly to promote accuracy, not to protect oneself from facial cuts.
Hi, Dave!
I do know that you’re the gun expert among us. In fact, I think we’ve commented back and forth before, due to my total ignorance about everything firearms. [I mean: “Hello, everybody – cartridges are for printers! Quit talking silly, now!”]
And you’re always so factual and rational about everything you write that I am forced to give considerable weight to what you say.
But, dang it, I just plain LIKE the recoil theory! I even laughed at the irony of it when I first read someone propose it. [Ohhhhhhh – how cooool would that be?!] Yet, YOU keep spoiling it for me. 😥
Could you at least just give me that, maybe … just maybe:
1) The killer is more wimpy than, say, you and other normal folks;
2) The killer was so busy premeditating that he couldn’t simultaneously remember Osterman’s gun-handling lessons;
3) The killer was so busy trying to restrain his victim that he couldn’t simultaneously remember Osterman’s gun-handling lessons; and/or,
4) The killer was unable to apply Osterman’s “shooting range” lessons to an actual gun-shooting scenario?
I’ll understand if you can’t, but thanks for your consideration. 🙂
PS – There really are internet articles and YouTubes about this particular gun’s remarkable “kick.” So there’s like polar opposite information….
😉
Groans,
Here’s a reason that you might NOT like that theory.
If it could be conclusively shown that the killer’s bloody nose was caused by the recoil of his pistol, it would follow that he was holding the gun within inches of his face with his wrist bent backward when he pulled the trigger, not with his arm extended as he demonstrated in at least one interview.
Why would he fire from such an awkward position? The only reason I can think of is that Trayvon actually was on top. No, I don’t believe that.
Why would he fire
While I’m not excluding the possibility of recoil as the cause of the bloody nose, I also think that it’s possible that the bloody nose was caused by Trayvon hitting GZ’s nose while struggling to escape from his grip – probably with some part of his body other than his hands (maybe his head or his shoulder).
Dave,
GZ’s cheap azz gun actually does have a lot of kick. It’s not the standard 9mm it is compacted to be concealed. The gun has big kick because of that it also has no safety. Also many malfunctions with this cheapo throw away dirt gun.
I totally agree Brandi…..
Read or watch some reviews of the kel tec pf9…..It’s even stated that the gun is no fun for target shooting due to the excessive recoil.
If fogen had one hand (the one he was careful not to shoot) holding on to Trayvon…..he shot one handed…..entirely possible the nose injury was due to the recoil.
Dave and Groans,
It was a shotgun. I know shotgun vs handgun. But, I had a close call with recoil and my forehead shooting a 357 mag but never had any issues with a mini 14 rifle it’s actually my fave. I did shoot that cheapo gz had at a gun shop and it gave me a lot of kick/recoil actually thinking about it it was a jerky kick instead of the kick that brings your hands up like most. Thinking even more maybe its because its an automatic because the one automatic handgun I’ve shot also jerks instead of raising like my preferred handg a revolver. I find it likely that he could have done broken his nose since he shot one handed with his weaker hand.
Brandi- except for fact that GZ did NOT have a broken nose at all! He had a tiny scratch over the bridge. No swelling, no black eyes, no pain even a few hours later at the cop shop! Whatever made that minor injury ( and it might have been the recoil) did NOT break that nose.
Sent from my iPod
Xena says:
March 11, 2013 at 12:53 pm
IMO, O’Mara doesn’t want an immunity hearing for several reasons, the main one being that GZ cannot testify. He is most likely to go bonkers on the witness stand during cross-examination. Still another reason is that O’Mara and West don’t want to put in unpaid time for an immunity hearing followed by unpaid time for trial.
Reply
@
Oh they will pay for it one way or another they will pay.
No good dead goes without reward.The reward is double for both the recepient of the good deed benifit ditto the benifactor is rewarded with a feeling of goood will.
Bro Bono.
Means a charitable act.
Nothing charitable about attempting to help a CHILD MURDERER escape consiquence for his depraved actions.
Nothing charitable about defameing both the deceased VICTIM but also his Family an Loved ones an his SWEETHEART.
Witnrss EIGHT Loved Trayvons HEART your defendant put a bullet a hollow point from a hollow shell of human garbage.
Nothing charitable about there actions at all.The way Skellator West rose to the podium an hissed that he wanted wittneses 8 address nae demanded it.
Called her a LIAR at every opertunity he could,
If he spoke about a Daughter of mine in that tone off voice me an him are going to have WORDS.
An by that I mean verbal intercouse only Id be on top.
Anyway back on point they couldnt be acting less charitable if they atttempted to.
An as no good deed goes unrewarded.The opposite applys to no bad deed going unpunished.
An those three M O M Skelator an fogen will all get what thy are due.
In fact they are already began to reap what they have sown.
An theres a Tornado of righous justice an ass kicking heading there way .
Not often seen by so many so wide an far fogens day of reckoning aproaches.
Time at the momment for him an his de fence team will be aproaching light speed.
So fast will his repetitive days fly by.
An then he hits the big hoose an time stands still forever in his case hopefully.
You cannot redeem a souless person i m o.
An only a person with no recouse for human empathy could kill a CHILD in such a casual manner.
An show not one iota of emotion nae flicker of remorse
Opposite in fact contempt for his victim.
The reason HOMIE was dropped quick smart from the script was.
HOMIE= victim no name though fogen gave him a pet name SUSPECT.
HOMIE DROPED Soon as fogen is made aware suspect has a name suspect is a good child .
Suspect was on retreat with cause infact suspect was with in sight of his own back door.
So suddenly all the more elebarate over the toppish thing disapear ,
Like the Hommie like the attacking from behind thrre ft high bushes growing fluch up besides the homes outside walls at least at the T.
All the thugish lingo dropped an just upped the ante on his unprovked thugish behaviour
Double back an circleing his car challenging almost threating behaviour.
Trying to make it sound as if Trayvon was lureing our hero into a trap.
All the while spying on him waiting to attack.
As our hero meandres about in the darkness looking for the holy grail off an un asked for unwanted an unused addres.
An all the while Trayvon is lurking waiting to pounce on our poor victim hero fogen.
He happens to be answering his mobile an chattin to his Girlfreing so lound that our hero the victim probably hears him.
An just tells sean to have them guys call me laters an Ill tell them where Im at .
Yup You got it.
@colin black. It is one thing for a defendant to lie in effort to save their own ass. It’s another for a defendant and his legal counsel to lie on or about the victim and witnesses. The thugification of Trayvon Martin was started by White Supremacists. When O’Mara and Skelator West pick up that banner, they too are promoting White Supremacist agenda. But, we’re not suppose to see that, right?
There’s one thing I’ve been thinking about that your post brings out, into specific relief, at least to me. We’ve been talking about the “thuggification” of Trayvon from the beginning. Maybe it’s because of my own emotional investment in this case, maybe I’m a bit ultrasensitive as a black woman approaching 50, but the way DeeDee has been and is being treated, particularly with regards to the “lying and perjury” are very reminiscent of a time when black women were portrayed as liars or whores to prevent them from reporting or testfying in attacks against them, mostly by white men. I say ultrasensitive because I understand that in today’s world there are literally no holds barred, in that area with regard to race or even gender, but the way DeeDee is being treated has a very “Hemingwayesque” feel to it, for lack of a better way of describing it.
@Nef05. In this case, Zidiots do not discriminate — if you’re Black, you’re under attack. It’s the mindset of racist bigots. Of course, they could not say that DeeDee is a liar without incorporating a conspiracy against attorney Crump. Well, attorney Blackwell represented attorney Crump on the subpoena matter, but Zidiots have not called him a liar, an idiot, neither appropriated slang speech to him nor mocked his southern accent.
So, here we have an attorney who is Black who Zidiots say is a con artist, liar, etc., represented by a White lawyer who brings attorney Crump’s sworn affidavit before the court. In the Zidiot nation, Judge Nelson and attorney Blackwell are not stupid, con artists, low class, uneducated, etc. — just attorney Crump, whom the White lawyer and White judge believe.
you will have to pardon my mental meanderings here folks and i will apologize in advance if this offends anyone in anyway.
we do not even know for certain that DeeDee is black. she is W8 and on the phone with TM for much of the day on the day of his death. that is the sum of what we know about her which is good. yes, we have listened to her interviews with BDLR and Crump. we assume she is black, but we do not know.
yes, she is treated with vehement scorn by raging racists.
part of me would love to blow their minds if W8 should take the stand and be caucasian. i realize that racists have pretty low thoughts about white women dating black men as well. just picturing in my mind how this would shake down.
[i am reminded of dave chapelle’s routine of the blind, black white supremacist who eventually divorces his blind wife for ‘being a n***** lover”.]
Faux McCoy- LOL! Truly I had never thought if that! I’d probably hear the collective explosion of the CTH over here in Texas!
Sent from my iPod
@Cielo62
Th ground started moving as soon as I read the post!!!
Nef05 — Hemingwayesque? Absolutely.
Fogen supporters have offered one racist argument after another after another. Why the Z family will have anything at all to do with that or why Fogen or his attorneys will accept any money from that quarter at all is beyond me. They say they don’t and obviously they do.
@Two sides.
The same bigots who think that Blacks do not want to work to earn a living, are the same ones who support GZ who had a job and a residence, but abandoned both before Trayvon was identified and the local news reported it. But, what’s really funny is that none of his supporters in Seminole County have offered him a job and free housing.
Xena — Joe Oliver should house and take care of his dear dear loving friend Fogen.
Today I saw a bumper sticker: It said “Take my hand, not my life.”
Colin Black- yep , karma’s a bitch!
Sent from my iPod
To Colin OMG I envy how you can write exactly how I feel but can’t explain.You and many others here make me proud to be part of the human race.Please any of you please listen to Javararis Fulton’s interview on april 14 2012 with Sunny Hostin on CNN it does your heart good how he talks about his brother TM.
pat – the interview with jahvaris is beautiful and touching. i saw it when it became available. one would have to assume that his brother would have come across just as beautifully if he had been given the chance. that interview makes me cry. i am grateful that sybrina has this son still and it also compounds the loss somehow.
Do any of you have a link? I’d love to hear it.
@SG2
I don’t know if you got the link for the CNN interview, but here it is…..
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/13/justice/florida-trayvon-brother
Thank you for this, Blush.
@sg2
*daps*
double checking, caught your note to me earlier, thanks, very kind of you, 🙂
The photographer who took the picture of the starving child in Sudan was Kevin Carter. He was a man of conscience. He committed suicide, overcome by depression and sorrow at witnessing so much suffering, at age 33. He was a white South African who was brought up during Apartheidt and who did not understand how people, including his own people, could do such horrible things to others.
I consider him to have been a righteous man thrown down in intolerable circumstances and too sensitive to survive them. Strangely, his image has him down as INsensitive; that was not the case.
“Don’t let me be misunderstood” —
So very sad to happen to such a caring, sensitive person.
The song you chose, Malisha, really speaks to his sorrowful end.
I don’t feel he was at all insensitive to take that picture or release it. The world needed to see it. The world needs to see many more photos like it to come to their senses about the disparities between the wealthy and poor in the world.
And the disparities between the powerful and powerless, and what the powerful can do to the powerless. The starvation of the South Sudanese, as well as of the people of Darfur in the west, by the Sudanese ruling class, was a man-made famine.
Yes.
It is my understanding that in an immunity hearing the defendant must prove by a preponderance of evidence that he acted in self defense. Considering the political nature of this case, I find it unlikely that Judge Nelson will grant immunity before the trial. She can simply rule that some of the facts are disputed and deny the motion. I think that is the likely scenario, which is why I think the defense if forgoing the hearing. They can go to trial and ask for immunity after the prosecutions case and again before the jury goes into deliberations.
So considering that the defendant’s finances are already in the toilet, the defendant is not in jail, and Nelson is unlikely to grant immunity, I think it’s a smart move by MOM.
Besides, why would you give the prosecution an opportunity to see your defensive strategy if you don;t think you’ll win immunity at the hearing? And like you wrote Professor, why would they put the fogen on the stand if they don’t need to do so?
Glad you enlightened us about that.
If you had read my articles on the immunity hearing, you would know that your statement is wrong. The Florida Supreme Court rejected that test.
It’s very clear that the defense has decided to waive the immunity hearing because they know they cannot prove that it’s more probable than not that the defendant acted in self-defense.
That’s basically an admission that they have no case.
I thought GZ chose to go to trial for the social good of the nation…I swear I heard O’Mara say something like that
I believe that is the most ridiculous statement O’Mara has uttered throughout this unapologetic racist smoke-and-mirrors defense.
I’m surprised he was able to keep a straight face.
Next thing you know, he will appear wrapped up in a flag singing America the Beautiful and bemoaning that we cannot all get along.
Ahhhh, Nostalgia….An American Flag. Remember the “The real GZ” website with the American Flag waving in the background.
I sent them so many e-mails about that I’m shocked RZ Jr didn’t pay me a personal visit. I tried, but he didn’t bite.
bwah ha ha ha
with pastor terry Jones in tow
Tzar~ MOM said something along the lines that a jury wouold convince the nation that GZ is innocent MORE than if only a judge found him innoccent. Sounds like dog whistles referring to “riots” if only a judge found him innocent.
I was being facetious, i know exactly what Mr. Ed said
OOPS! Sorry! Didn’t see the facetious sign. I guess I was just taking things too literally.
Sent from my iPod
no problem, I refuse to post a sarcasm sign, If people can’t get my sarcasm without it, then I am doing something wrong and I need to challenge myself to do a better job 🙂
so forgive me my friend
“Preponderance of evidence” is subjective and up to the interpretation of the judge making the decision. Of course she can’t use disagreement over a small detail to determine immunity. But given the reams of evidence presented on your blog alone, I don’t see how she could grant it. Add the evidence the political pressure and I’d be willing to bet my farm that she won’t.
So please don’t patronize me Professor. I read the case law (Peterson and Dennis). The truth is that MOM made a smart move because he put the burden of proof on the prosecution, kept fogen off the stand, and did not reveal any defensive strategies to the prosecution. And at this point if I was the fogen, I’d be more worried about avoiding prison time than I’d be about lawsuits.
Wouldn’t te burden of proof be in the prosecution ANYWAY during any regular trial? MOM is just waiving one right while pretending he hasn’t ,just to make his fan base happy.
Sent from my iPod
How’s Fogen gonna even have a chance without taking the stand? LMAO
There’s no evidence he acted in self defense
@Jun
I’m guessing he’ll decide whether or not to testify after the prosecution presents their case. The defense will be trying to impeach the the prosecution’s evidence and witness credibility. Then they’ll ask for immunity and/or for the charges to be dismissed. Next they’ll call their witnesses and experts. At that point, depending on how they feel about the case and especially the jury, they will decide to call fogen or not.
They are just looking to create reasonable doubt; The defense isn’t obligated to prove anything. There is a presumption of innocence. The onus is on the state.
The main problem is Fogen’s claimed “attack injuries” because the forensics and witnesses support the idea that Trayvon never caused those injuries
That lone makes Fogen’s claims not credible
I also do not know whose credibility they can impeach
They might go at witness 8 but does Omara really want to bring up medical records, considering his client’s lack of medical records and hospital records and treatment?
There’s also no proof witness 8 lied, and all Omara has is allegations with nothing to back it up and me thinks it will also backfire because witness 8 could simply tell them why she wont divulge her medical records and I am willing to bet she will tell them about threats to her life from Fogen
I also do not think Omara’s theory of rain washing away blood and dna will suffice considering it never washed off at all on Fogen, Fogen’s clothing, Fogen’s gun, nor did the blood smear wash off of the bottom of Trayvon’s shirt
The witnesses have no connection to either party and 4 of the witnesses describe it as a kid screaming for help or making strange squealing noises
Witness 18 saw it from the confrontation forward and places Fogenbottomz as the aggressor
It seems like a house of cards to me but we will see what Omara comes up with
@Jun
We’ll see…
No, Judge Nelson would deny it because Fogenhats did not act in self defense
His proof is extremely minor injuries which he gave himself and tried to frame Trayvon, the kid he killed
His other proof is W6, the person with ever changing stories, who either is unsure of what he saw or he is working in cohesion with the defendant
His other proof is having his father jump on the stand with the “absolutely 100% George” act, as if people can not tell with their own ears it does not sound like FogenHitler
That is pretty much FogenHitler’s “proof”
The fact that he stalked and chased Trayvon is easily proven by using FogenHitler’s own statements
All FogenHitler did was target, stalk, chase, threaten, attack, and kill, then lie and try to manipulate or flaunt the system
That’s aggravated stalking, aggravated assault, murder 2, structuring (it says under the law attempt to cause the tracking system by making movements under $10K, which he did), providing false information for his bail application
If the state wanted to go all out they got lots of proof LOL
Also, court is not how the Zidiots picture it
FogenHitler… LOLZ!!!!!
What is fogen.
@ Creepytwins re:
Incorrect. Immunity must be raised in a pretrial motion to dismiss the charges. See the Florida Supreme Court decision, Dennis v. State.
You’re mistaken. There is nothing in the Dennis decision that prevents the defense from requesting immunity after the trial has begun.
http://lawofselfdefense.com/law_case/dennis-v-state-51-so-3d-456-fl-supreme-court-2010/
Not true. They call it a pretrial hearing and do not explicitly approve of another procedure.
Moreover, they do not consider the potential violation of constitutional rights that such a procedure could create.
Note the following language in Dennis:
I am fairly sure there is something written that a defendant can not intentionally delay a trial or even an immunity hearing
Considering the unreasonable and unreasonable amount of continuance requests, a request for an immunity hearing seems like an attempt to delay the trial, therefore the court has a right to deny the motion if it is not within the specified time and the defendant is still allowed to assert his affirmative defense, especially considering it would have been over a year and the defense has really done nothing consequential
According to the article you posted, they agreed with the court’s actions in denying the defendant’s motion to dismiss
Also IMO it is already unjust to the victim of an incident
Too bad, so sad
@Professor
But Peterson still applies, doesn’t it?
@ creepytwins re:
Incorrect, again. The Dennis court held:
The subject of Rule 3.190 is PRETRIAL motions, and Rule 3.190(c) governs when Rule 3.190(b) PRETIAL motions must be filed.
You’ll need to understand Rule 3.190 to understand the rest of my reply. So, here’s a link to the Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure (Rule 3.190 begins on page 78):
Click to access Criminal.pdf
Nearly five months ago (and eight months after the killer killed Trayvon), with the agreement of both parties, Judge Nelson entered a Scheduling Order on October 29, 2012, which included:
Judge Nelson exercised her Rule 3.190(c) discretion generously and allowed ample time for the defense to file a motion to dismiss and prepare for a hearing on it. She had even reserved court resources for an immunity hearing six months in advance.
If the defense does not file a motion to dismiss on the ground of section 776.032 immunity within the timeframe set by the court, “SYG” immunity SHALL be considered WAIVED, according to Rule 3.190(c). The defense cannot raise it during or after trial.
Of course, the defense could ask to file its motion later, but I doubt the judge would feel compelled to grant that request. And since that’s entirely within her discretion, appellate relief is highly unlikely. How could the defense argue that she “abused” her discretion on the facts of this case?
I think she needs to clarify that she is not going to hold an immunity hearing during the trial or after trial, because she did not make that clear to O’Mara when he said he was thinking about rolling it up into the trial instead of doing the hearing in April.
That is why, if I were the judge, I would have my judicial assistant contact counsel for both sides and inform them that I want to hold a hearing to consider whether the immunity hearing can be merged into the trial or taken up in a post-trial motion after the jury renders it verdict.
I realize the defense probably has no intention of seeking immunity or at least no expectation that it will be granted, but I would hate to see a conviction get reversed on appeal because both matters were combined.
I believe the hearing should be held before trial or not at all, btw.
Thank you Professor. Clarification is important on this particular point. Dennis II (from my perspective) indicates that an immunity hearing must be granted if requested. But the FSC case also suggested that Peterson still applies. Is, in fact, the burden of proof on the defense if immunity is sought or can it be rolled into the trial where the defendant does not have to testify? I think Judge Nelson needs to clarify this issue.
@groans
I see your point, but let’s suppose (hypothetically, of course) that a witness recants his/her testimony at trial and provides information that shows self defense was justified. Are you saying that because the defendant waived the immunity hearing, he/she is not eligible for immunity from civil litigation?
You just plain CAN’T have an immunity hearing AFTER a prosecution. Why not start with an appeal and work backwards? How could you get immunity from something that already happened? After all, why don’t we just do an immunity hearing for Trayvon Martin and determine that he’s immune from being stalked, accosted and killed, wouldn’t that be a great idea?
After a trial has happened, there can be no immunity hearing. If O’Mara REALLY thinks there can be, he’s not so smart. On the other hand, if he thinks he can say that to keep the Outhousers happy for a while so he can work something out that would really get them mad, so be it. I don’t mind if O’Mara lies to the Outhousers and leads them down the stupid garden path; he is, after all, to the manner born.
Nobody needs to figure out how Fogen got his little scratches and his bump on dee noze. Those were very minor injuries, not enough to sue an airline for if they dropped a suitcase on your face when you were getting into your seat. You’d get a voucher for a free tuna sandwich on your next trans-Atlantic flight. The guy’s FULL OF IT.
However he got those scratches, they do not figure into a reasonable fear of great bodily harm or death. Furthermore, anything Trayvon Martin did to Fogen when he was being followed and threatened was self-defense on Trayvon’s part, and has nothing to do with Fogen standing HIS ground. The ONLY place Fogen could have stood HIS ground was in his damn Schtruck, and he shoulda schtuck there in his schtruck if he didn’t want to get schtruck on his silly noggin.
Who threw the first punch? Irrelevant. But if the question must be answered as to “who started it?” the answer is obvious: Fogen. He set out to get that fucking punk and he DID get that fucking punk and the way he did it fit the legal definition of Murder-2 (at least) in Florida. NOW both sides want to pull back from having a trial.
Why?
At trial, we will find out about those phone calls.
We will find out about that March 1, 2012 HOA meeting.
We will find out about the e-mails Fogen sent after the killing.
We will find out about which witnesses had conversations with which cops and when they spoke with the defendant.
We’ll find out way too much about Tim Smith, Raimondo, Wolfinger, Lee, and probably others who are vulnerable if it all has to come out.
You can bet big money has changed hands to make sure that will never happen.
Then creepily, slowly, and in the best bureaucratic refractory manner, the FBI investigation will close — with no conclusions reached.
Knox will never be cross-examined.
Fogen will never take the stand.
That money they gathered will not be used for experts.
I expect right about now Fogen has PTSD.
But several very good things will come of this whole thing:
1 – Nobody will be able to figure they get a free kill;
2 – Fogen and his crowd will have been put through Hell no matter what the outcome is;
3 – Lee is history; Wolfinger is history; some cops had to “take it up the a55”;
4 – Journalists like Stutzman will learn that they can’t just make it up as they go along, that there’s actually a price to be paid thanks to the Internet.
Please let renee stuzman be gone asap. I do disagree I don’t believe anything good will come of this unless gz gets the max sentence.
There has been a few Trayvon like cases since.
Gz a guy who couldn’t pass algebra killed a kid in advanced math
was broke and has since received several hundred thousand dollars.
His parents even got in on the begging for blood money.
His brother is on every show seems to love the fame
He is being paid for autographs
The family of Trayvon is having to defend his right to live by proving he was the only perfect teenager ever
The media seems to be gz’s PR lately
Unfortunately as minor as gz’s bumps are there are some that believe that a black male that raises their hand should die. Maybe even have one on the jury.
@Brandi.
GZ has nothing to show for that money other than a fast, massive weight gain, and a lawsuit for owing $28,000.
GZ is like a drug addict who convinces friends to give him money and the more they give, the more often he gets high.
GZ is his own multi-level marketing scheme horror story.
@fauxmccoy. It kinda reminds me of divorce cases where a spouse wants more in alimony, but the law says that they are only meant to live in the same lifestyle they had during the marriage.
GZ wasn’t spending $12,000 a month on his lifestyle before he killed Trayvon, and I seriously doubt that any of his financial donors live $12,000 monthly lifestyles.
He was convinced that this was the start of the sweet life, so why budget now? Did anyone see the interview done on Wit. 22? He was the co-worker that was harassed by fogen at Car-Max. He said that fogen is so much of a smooth talker that when they were in a meeting about his complaint he started to doubt his own complaint.
Wow Malisha you give me so much hope.
Great writing, but I see Fogen headed exactly where he should be. However, we probably won’t know a whole lot more, ever, ever, about SPD and what truly went on behind the scenes.
Who owns the Orlando Sentinel, does anyone know?
“Who owns the Orlando Sentinel, does anyone know?”
No, no one knows.
It’s a complete mystery.
Even whoever owns it don’t know that they own it.
(but there’s a rumor over at wikipedia that it’s the chicago trib)
unitron
Wiki says they’ve shifted to a format to engage people who don’t read much I guess that explains why they’re getting behind GZ. So now it’s the radio station the tv station and the newspaper pushing for GZ.
I guess a SEC search might turn up something if anyone cares to give it a go.
No rumor, Unitron. Seems the Orlando Sentinel was part of the Tribune Co publishing universe, and thus bought in 2006 by Sam Zell. If I get things correct, then Renée Stutzman and the Orlando Sentinel have survived the Tribune Co bankruptcy in Dec. 2008. Maybe that was simply to get rid of debts. I remember events after the take over at the Los Angeles Times well. Maybe Stutzman is simply careful, easy for journalists to loose their jobs nowadays.
Next time I’ll try to use a really big font for the “teasing” tag.
But seriously, I just opened Google, typed in “orlando sentenel ownership”, hit Enter, and it came back and told me I’d misspelled “sentinel” and the Wikipedia entry was the first hit and Tribune was right there in the preview text, so it’s not like it was being kept a deep, dark secret.
And there’s no indication that I could find anywhere of any connection at any time between the now Washington Post owned WKMG and the Chicago Tribune or any of the Tribune companies.
unitron
I have to admit these leveraged buyouts are sometimes very puzzling. I’ve studied similar cases over here.
Isn’t it wonderful that Google even considers our spelling disabilities? I kept misspelling Sentinel for quite a while myself. Admittedly I did not realize what it means. Shouldn’t a sentinel stand with Fogen, no matter how misguided he was?
I hadn’t heard about Colin’s grass either, admittedly. About snitches, narcs and finks but not about “grasses”.
Besides, please don’t use big font teasing tags. This tease reminded me I miss a specific tool I once had, was helpful occasionally to get more business specific contents.
WKMG? Oh, I see: WKMG-TV. Watching it? Now, could this be another teaser? You couldn’t find one because none exists?
Not so much a tease as an anticipation of where all this might be going.
I’m not of the opinion that the newspaper, or the television station, for that matter, has a pro or anti either side agenda in this case, but apparently some people do, and might look to its ownership for a motive.
Also there seems to be some confusion on the part of some regarding whether the newspaper or the television station did various things, especially as regards Michael Knox.
unitron
Both the newspaper and the TV station are pro- MONEY, so they will milk whatever will bring viewers to their sites. Journalism is dead. Welcome to Shock-Jock sound bytes.
‘Both the newspaper and the TV station are pro- MONEY”
I tried to make that point to someone around here the other day, that they don’t care how the trial comes out, they care that people wanting news about it come to them and boost their ratings instead of the competitions, but that other person persisited in believing that it was all about ideology, without understanding that the guiding ideology is “We want to turn a profit, not have to go out of business”.
unitron
I think ideology comes into play only insofar as it plays to the predominate demographics. Since Florida is still so racist, you will find that slant in their news outlets. Not really because its really the news as it is, but rather its the news people there are willing to pay to read. Like I said, journalism is dead.
Sent from my iPod
I think this was more along the lines of “If the media won’t refer to (the not yet convicted of anything) Zimmerman as Trayvon’s murderer, it just proves they’re all secret members of the KKK” kind of suspicion of bias.
unitron
Tribune Company, just emerged from bankruptcy. It was taken private a few years ago by real estate mogul Sam Zell, after a ng reignr as a major public newspaper chain with television interests and ownership of Wrigley Field for many years.
It has no ownership links with the Washington Post Company, or the old the Knight-Ridder chain.
For many years the big cash cow for Tribune Company (they always made a big fucking deal about not abbreviating into “Co.”) was the old evening Fort Lauderdale News, which had the high ad lineage in the nation for many years, thanks to massive area real estate development. The News merged with the weaker morning Pompano Beach Sun-Sentinel in the ’80s to become the morning South Florida Sentinel, which went head to head against the Miami Herald and Palm Beach Post. .
Other Trib papers include the Chicago Trib, Baltimore Sun, LA Times. Purging of editorial staff continues, since its cheaper to staff up with interns and just of college kids than seasoned pros. LA Times got rid of a prize-winning health writers a year or so because she was too expensive.
Meant South Florida Sun-Sentinel, aka informally the Sentinel, sister to the Orlando Sentinel.
Tribune shares once traded in the $77 range. When Zell took things private, shareholders got something like $22 and change per share.
So you are slightly unforgiving, bear grudges, or discussions leave traces on your mind, which allow you to sort people in easily defined boxes: ignorant about, it’s the economy stupid! I guess that’s the one I ended up in?
Now at what point precisely did the Washington Post shift from the Watergate scandal paper into the unquestioning support of a decades long War on Terrorism. If money is all that counts, wasn’t that the same in the times of Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein? It should be if it is such a general rule.
To choose a different country, and I do not expect you to know the German newspaper market, would you say the Jerusalem Post and Haaretz are identical. Meaning it’s all about the money only? It may in fact become more and more a fact with Israel Ya’Hom being distributed freely. Probably financed by ads.
I have a couple of friends working in journalism. One of them managed to work for a paper that represented his political perspective. The others I have witnessed slowly adopting to the perspective of their papers shifting conservative to right.
Before the Nazis took over here in Germany, a bill was extensively discussed was meant to become law that would have given journalists freedom of expression. Once the Nazis took over that development wasn’t only stopped but reverted. They created the institution of a watchdog, a “sentinel” in every newspaper that was personally responsible for the adherence to the strict observance of the rules from Berlin dictating what had to be written word by word, and all the other rules signaled by the color of the respective papers the news were printed on. Now that is the extreme. But as my friends told me, before they adopted the respective perspective more or less thoroughly themselves, in less extreme situations you simply develop “scissors your head”, that cut out everything you feel that does not fit the larger perspective of the paper or media. Since if you don’t, it’s done for you. After a while you learn and conform.
So maybe it’s not all about money only. While yes it adds an important angle to the issue. But there are also expectations of the respective readers that have to be taken care of.
Seems I was somehow undecided here about what to choose and did not pay attention: adopting the perspective or adapting to the perspective. Conform with, anyway.
I won’t check the rest.
leander – you are making an excellent point. it is more than money that drives journalism. newspapers in this country vie for political power and influence, historically and today. we see this most easily around election times when editorials are unabashedly biased and newspapers endorse ‘their’ particular candidate.
Appoligies if other express same as above but I had to respond to that post on first reading.
Colin,
How does gz get the swollen nose and scratches?
Brandi, you might find the defendant’s own explanations helpful.
His nose was not swollen on the pictures taken at the station under good lighting and with an intact chain of custody. Have you looked at them?
GZ’s narrative makes no sense from any standpoint when you look into the DNA evidence.
Only the truth makes sense, and while we do not know the complete truth, we know enough to say beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ’s narrative is a whopping lie.
And the medical report, the defendant’s own evidence, let’s not forget.
photoshop
special effects
self mutalation
another time another place
looks worse than it was
photoshop
Le’ts add to that, the overwhelming exculpatory ‘testimony’ in court, by ENT Kevin.
More exculpatory evidence with the infamous defense photo taken 2 minutes…. 2 minutes when? No time for a peroxide eye flush before that photo, was there!!
Brandi, there’s more help from Osterman’s book, for SYG or immunity.
I think Charles Blow was funnin’ ya about the tuxedo.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/george-zimmermans-bloody-mess/2012/09/28/e204d598-09a4-11e2-858a-5311df86ab04_blog.html
I get a kick out of that “Are you following me George” every time. LOL
On the one hand, since it wasn’t Trayvon’s doing, does it matter? However, my suspicion is that the scratches can be accounted for by sneaking through the bushes between condos (thinking he never made a bee-line back towards the truck, but rather turned right on RVC and doubled back hoping to intercept T. or actually caught sight of him). The lacerations most likely from a sprinkler as the two wrestled in the grass, and the nose injury from the pistol recoil.
Again–what the evidence seems to indicate, without a reasonable doubt, is that they were NOT inflicted by Trayvon.
Frankly the prosecution has very little need to figure out how he got his injuries. It is germane to their interests to show that they could not have come from Trayvon in the manner described by the killer and to be bold, that they could not have come from Trayvon in any manner, (unless on that night, the corner of his sweatshirt became an animated deadly weapon). I think the forensics support them greatly in that task!
he got those injuries from tree branches or bushes those wounds on the back of his head came from a metal object
Swollen nose = not sure I see a swollen nose, per say, in the photos of GZ at the police station !
Possible swollen nose as you suggest = possible from gun recoil or falling flat on his face while chasing Trayvon
Scratches = Maybe he ran into a “bush” or tree while chasing Trayvon
Nicks on the back of his head = if I recall correctly GZ slips up in one of his interviews and says the word “sign”…maybe he had a run-in with the dog poop sign ?
I’m going to say that I believe the police station pictures as far as any alleged nose injury is concerned. If his nose looked anything like the one in the picture allegedly taken by Wagner…..the EMT’s report would be worded something like this.
“Nose is broken and about the size of a melon. Patient demands medication for immense pain”
“Patient given XXX CC’s of XXXXXXXXX for pain and breathing tube of 02”
“Preposterous Knuckle Bandages recommended until swelling abates”
Yeah……..that was documented how…….”possible” was the operative word…actually I believe “….patient reported possible broken nose” to the PA the next day.
@Racer
Holy Knuckle Bandages Batman!!
If he only had a report like that it would blow the case wide open.
LOL
This is what he told the PA:
During the altercation he was
assaulted, punched in the face, and shoved to the ground where his head was hit into the pavement multiple
times. During the altercation, he had a weapon as he is authorized to carry a firearm and he fired at the attacker, killing
him. He was evaluated by EMS and slates his lacerations were cleaned. He was told that he had a broken nose and
denies being taken to the hospital. He then returned to work and was told he needed a police report and medical
clearance to return to work. He denies HA, change in VA, slurred speech, dizziness, or gait abnormality. Admits to
occasional nausea when thinking about the violence last night, but denies abdominal pain. Also complaining of left Sl joint
tenderness since the event. Denies numbness/tingling or incontinence.
The paramedic report on states he had tenderness and minor bleeding from his nose and not one word about it possibly being broken. I feel, the PA, just went with the story and hence her “likely broken” but wanting him to be seen by an ENT.
All I can say is
What kind of soap and water, as well as knuckle bandages, cures the head and skull and nose from almost being beaten to death?
Is it anything like Extenze? LMAO
@Jun
>>>Is it anything like Extenze? LMAO
Bwa aaa ha ha ha ha
correction, wasn’t Van Jones, not Charles Blow who made the tuxedo comment.
if the struggle is dynamic, which I assume it was. GZ had a weight advantage. You can easily figure out that he may have scraped his head on one of the water sprinkler’s on the lawn or on the edges of the walk if the struggle ever moved there. One of the witnesses did a drawing, I think it is in discovery 7 were she puts the struggle close to one such I can’t completely decipher it, but I think she called it a concrete block. It’s the neighbor of witness # 6, or the girl that sees the white t-shirt on top. Notice even witness #6, perceives the few seconds he witness as dynamic. But I consider his later statements colored by what he witnessed later, overheard, was told by neighbors or present officers. For whatever reason, I prefer this to running into bushes or signs. But I cannot explain why.
It’s in an interview with Singleton when he says he hit his head “against the pavement or I don’t know, if there was a sign or what it was.”
He got hit when he approached the poor kid gun drawn
@Brandi Kansas City .
Your words above buy into the broken nose Trayvon attacked fogen senario.
How in the heck you excpect a person to punch or hit another without leaveing a speck of even contact DNA.
The defendant was never hit by the VICTIM a child.
You honestly think he saw the creepydude aproach him arm outstreched pointing a gun at him?.
An his responce was not to flee like a gazelle but attack an armed man.
The gun was never drawn untill fpogen had an unbreakable grip on his victims upper garments.
An whilst he was already screaming for help.
When the gun comes into the equasion thats when the heart renching Noooooooooooos Noooooos are heard an then silanced with one shot.
Trayvon did not ever attack the accused suspect defendand soon to be convicted.
@Prof
Any guidance to when the defense has to give reciprocal discovery. Judge Nelson has the June10th date set in stone and a continuance was denied, even after O’Mara claimed they will not be ready and have no money, when can we expect the defense to hand over their discovery to the state?
You mean like the cv’s and statements of opinion of their forensic consultants? We know they have paid a few thousand already since new monies came rolling in (well, so they say, could be a 20 thousand sell off of 40 thousand in new computer systems, law office upgrades, they won’t be using now?)
@ay2z
That was funny. thanks for the laugh this afternoon. 😆 🙂
I doubt that the defense intends to call any witnesses with the possible exception of the defendant.
And I was so looking forward to his wonderful brother taking the stand and single handedly exonerating him with more brilliant oratory.
Then there was that warm and fuzzy friend Frank Taaffe. I know I speak for millions when I say “..love to hear him from the stand…”
I guess I won’t have to buy tickets to that dog & pony show after all.
Thanks. 🙂
Hmmm? They will only cross-examine state witnesses, present their own experts and than Fogen himself?
Interesting, they might think about not having trial at all. Delay with another year on an ankle monitor, 300 lbs ‘ballpark’ could turn into what, in 12 months, 400 plus? LLMPapa will have t update his video, using an underwater fish eye lens and a whale songs.
ay2z says
bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha — i do my best to ignore and refrain from commenting on the weight issue because it is clearly an eating disorder, but dayam that’s funny!
At2z-LOL! “Whale songs”! At least they are more consistent than GZs stories!
Sent from my iPod
Actually, BB, there is a very significant deadline coming up quite soon. Judge Nelson’s 10/29/2012 Amended Scheduling Order, entered states:
ONLY 16 DAYS from now final witness lists, including experts, are due from both sides.
(Maybe we should start placing bets on whether a certain Mr. Knox will show up on one of the lists?! 😆 )
Groans- after the scathing reviews he’s gotten online, do you think he’d bother to show up? His “theories” will be shredded as easily as GZs stories. Ten bucks he doesn’t show up in the case in court. Deal? 🙂
Sent from my iPod
@groans
Oooo. Thanks for the reminder. Marking that date on a reminder note.
>>>(Maybe we should start placing bets on whether a certain Mr. Knox will show up on one of the lists?! 😆 )
If Mr. Knox shows up on any list, I will fly to Florida and give him a what for, it will be worth the price of the ticket to hold up a sign saying “Knox is an ox, he doesn’t know his ass from his elbow”.
I’m coming out of “lurk mode” to suggest that perhaps the real reason for the “non” performance of the MOM team is not at all what has been brought out so far. Has anyone given any thought to the possibility that the true leadership on this team is not from MOM or fogen? I might think that with the background of the former “Judge Zimmerman” that he was actually steering the case in a direction that he knows will force either a mistrial or an mandatory overturn of the conviction. Using this tactic would be a smart move, for them, remember one thing, the longer it is before the defendant actually goes to trial (or prison) the less possibility that the momentum to convict remains high in the minds of prospective jurors. I would think that the whole goal is to keep “fogen” out of jail long enough to not only remain free, but possibly modify the conditions that were set in the bond proceedings by the former judge. This would allow a scenero where if all else fails “fogen” could make an escape to a location out of the reach of justice. Just a few things to encourage thought….
Crazy1946 — or perhaps more accurately Crazy-like-a-fox: Fascinating, and what a nightmare for MOM & West if Pops Fogen is still trying to run interference for his no-count son as a would-be criminal defense lawyer. (It gets even better, if speculating that Wolfinger — now out of a job — has time to strategize with Pops on how MOM should run the show on sonny boy’s behalf, what with Wolfie actually being a lawyer and all.)
To keep Fogen out of the slammer for as long as possible any way they can seems to be a given, and your theory on attempting to orchestrate a mistrial could be on target. As far as forcing a mandatory overturn on a conviction, perhaps the professor, at some point, could advise on possible scenarios for that. As for fleeing the country, that seems the least likely, but you never know …
And don’t forget Sis, the immigration lawyer, isn’t she? Maybe a reciprocal agreement is in the works to ship the fogen to Siberia east where he could teach English and Spanish, to the isolated communities. Maybe a grant from Cuba or Venezuela to support tourism promo to fund his stay.
TO- for GZ to flee the country, he’s going to have to lose lots of weight! Unless he can really afford two airline seats for his huge butt.
Sent from my iPod
Zimmerman senior was not a judge, but rather a magistrate, sort of a court gopher person who sets up minor stuff ahead of time so that it flows smoothly and doesn’t take up too much time in front of the judge (my own understanding, anyway). I am not impressed with the family’s legal sense beginning with no one apparently telling George to shut up and get counsel ASAP. In fact, wasn’t he still in active conversation with the police when daddy sent his letter to the OS explaining what a good boy he really is?
Now maybe dad doesn’t have much influence over R, jr, but his (and mom’s) stuff hasn’t exactly been the most helpful, either. Particularly his drunken (or angry, tweets.
lurker~ true. I had read here that Papa Zim has no legal taining. His background is in the military. BUT that doesn’t mean that he isn’t invested in pulling strings based on his “vast” knowledge of the legal process. No matter how you look at it, MOM lost control of the direction from Day One.
Well, he hasn’t been showing up in court lately.
Maybe he’s in Peru already …? 😉
You talkin’ about more ‘skipping’?? 😉
Crazy1946…..This may really seem far fetched but……As fogen gains massive amounts of weight, do the bail bond folks loosen his ankle monitor so that it doesn’t cut off the circulation to his foot? Then, if he looses that same massive amount of weight (and because he doesn’t appear in court, no one is really aware of it) would it be possible for him to slip off, the now too big, ankle monitor (using a bit of vasoline) and escape? Just a weird thought since I wouldn’t put anything past fogen.
To escape from the ankle monitor, he would have to slip it over the heel. I doubt his weight gain and loss could happen quickly enough to prevent a necessary adjustment to prevent him from slipping the monitor over the heel.
Plus … I believe there’s something about design of most monitors that requires “mass” within the circular boundary. Lack of mass triggers an alert that something’s gone awry.
Fogen gets a visit every two weeks by the monitoring co just so that very thin g cannot happen. They are protecting a 1 million dollar gamble.
Heel amputation maybe?
I’m sorry, not to “yuck” someone’s “yum”…but there’s NOTHING authoritative about GZ or his father, in stature or the tone of their voice. They are all, a figment of their own imagination! Please, if they had the clout they think or their supporters have them convinced they do, this would have been over before it got started!
There’s no way I would’ve tolerated him and his foolishness…gated community or not, if he even attempted to pull the mess he did to other black residents on me, he would’ve known, without a doubt, that even though I now resided in a gated community…I’m from the, “I wish a N***a-Woods”. When I was growing up and only had boys my age to play outside with, my dad would watch out the window, and if I got in a scuffle with any of them, he would tell me I better not come in crying, and I better win the fight, or he’d beat my butt.
IMO, O’Mara doesn’t want an immunity hearing for several reasons, the main one being that GZ cannot testify. He is most likely to go bonkers on the witness stand during cross-examination. Still another reason is that O’Mara and West don’t want to put in unpaid time for an immunity hearing followed by unpaid time for trial.
Xena part of me thinks that alone is why against advice not to do so, Fogen may just end up on the stand. Can you imagine the outburst as his nonsense is slowly but steadily broken down on cross?
Imagine him on the stand getting ripped to shreds and every afternoon the Zidiots led by RZ jr telling us how O’ Mara & Fogen won every round.
He can’t take the stand on everything he MUST take the stand for.
Damn…..must suck to be FogenPhoole !!
I don’t know, Xena. You may be right.
But I think the killer is a coward. I think he has proven himself to be a coward, at least from February 26, 2012 to this day.
So I don’t think he’s “man enough” to take the stand and be publicly challenged and scrutinized, and he won’t insist on doing so.
And, of course, he’ll later blame everyone else for the “injustice” of his guilty verdict.
Groans- remember, though, GZ is a con man and smooth talker. He thought he could get Corey to drop the charges if he could just talk to her. His ego is the only thing bigger than his stomach. I see him taking the stand, hoping his magic tongue can get him out if this.
Sent from my iPod
Oops …. I think my reply was actually to rayvenwolf’s comment. Sorry for any confusion!
Off topic, maybe, but today I’m reminded of a new word I learned here recently.
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/shill
yes, ‘shill’ is a perfectly lovely word. i was teased brutally in my teens for reading the dictionary for pleasure. it was time well spent and as a parent, i cannot tell you how satisfying it was to hear my 2 year old use the word ‘superfluous’ correctly in a sentence.
fauxmccoy, reading telephone books, don’t know why, but sending this song along for you 😉
Fauxmccoy- I was teased for taking Latin in high school, but it sure helped my SAT scores!
Sent from my iPod
@ cielo — word nerds, unite!
(no one has ever played scrabble with me twice – there are disadvantages)
Faux McCoy~ Ego concedo!
Fauxmccoy,
Another dictionary reader here. I’ll be looking for a word and end up reading for hours. I’ve always been an avid reader.
i am so glad to know that i am not alone. 🙂
faux, here you go 😉
hahahahaha — in all my years, it never occurred to me to look that up on youtube. i can see why the youngsters pestered my grandma with crank calls now asking if her husband was an old farmer that walked with a limp. she did not have a tv and the calls confused her for many years. (grandpa was a rancher and did have a stroke at a very young age which left him with a limp for life)
>^..^< grabbing on.
YAHTC- Cute! Yes, like that! Still getting over a cold and trying to catch up with all the threads.
Sent from my iPod
Sorry you are sick. Get well soon , cielo!
Have you heard from kindheart since she told us she had the flu?
YAHTC~ Thank you. I am getting better. I’m at that stage where can I breathe, but I can’t TASTE anything! And I just bought 2 boxes of Girl Scout cookies! I hope Kindheart is alright. Haven’t heard from her or seallison, who was nursing some sick kitties. Weird weather is to blame for these bouts of colds and flus.
@ You all have thoughtful comments & cielo62
Kindheart’s been on HP knockin’ out with the snappy comebacks, she’s on quite a roll tonight!
Good news! I was starting to worry about her.
Still a bit queasy but back on solid food. I gotta say, she was seriously on her game last night!
Lady2soothe- thank you! I guess she’s getting over her flu, to be packing posts in style!
Sent from my iPod
As I just replied to Professor, she’s still a bit queasy but back on solid food, and seriously on her game last night!
PS Just reading rest of the posts now an see many includeing Prof have already pointed out the same thing.
I listened to that recorded whisper an heard khoons.
When Serino Confronts him with it fogen does what he always does .
Caught in a lie or inconsistensy he lowers his voice till barey audble an whispers I dont know or dont remember.
Serrino stops the tape at the Fn khoons whisper an asks fogggen.
What was that you said?
foggen lowers his voice an says softly Fn punks……
Serrino replays listens stops eape an says.
That wasnt Fnpunk………….
Some have speculated that to mean he is telling fogen that .
Trayvon was no fnpunk.
I dont i m o he is telling him you are lieing that wasnt fn punk you said or whispered on the tape.
But no matter it was a good kill lets press on.
Next time check there sneakers before you blow one away as they tend to wear black as oppose to white ones your kill was wearing.
Sods law your a good guy just got turned around an made a mistake no biggie.
If Serrinos attatude of being casual was tactical to draw out more info.
An make fogen comfortable enough to do a reconstruction.
An talk an talk without requesting council then he was a genious.
If not then?Im still on the de fence about him at the momment.
Officer Singleton though obviously was not interested in buying what fogen was selling.
But she done her best to remain cordial with him.
I am still quite confused about Serino’s role in all this. Some of his actions suggest that he considered GZ a murderer and wanted him charged; others (in particular, the witness tampering) indicate that he was trying to get the case dropped without charges. Has his role been established?
MolllyK, have you listened to the video I posted upthread? Listen through to the end, that gives some insight because Serino spoke with him on the phone. (go to about 4:15 mins)
It’s Lawrence O’Donnell Very last word, Pressing Joe Oliver’.
Molly,
I agree especially with some of Baez’s statements. I don’t know what to think of Serino. But Natalie Jackson seems to like him so hopefully he is doing the right thing.
Brandi, Baez statements like ‘weak case’ for instance? It’s his ‘opinion’ from ‘early on’. Hey, he’s entitled, but his media appearances are self-serving. Baez won’t be taking the stand to give any opinion, sad to say. 😉
I do not understand why people are so intent on giving this POS a pass on what he said. They don’t even trust their own ears… SMFH!
Yup! But whatever, F’g Punks is enough, he’s not thinking nice of the stranger he decides falsely, as doing something wrong.
No way it sounds anything like ‘punks’ to me.
X 1,000,000
HELL NAW! SMDH @ “PUNKS” GTFOHWTBSASAP!
I never thought it was “punks”, when I first heard it I was convinced it was the “c” word but when I heard that the name of the local gang was “goons”, I wonder if it was that word. He did blame most of the problems on the local gang
The 1st time I heard the NEN call, I had several customers and friends in my shop. Almost all of us said “…did he just call that kid a coon to the dispatcher…..???” My wife was recording it in the house and we all listened at least 10 X…….he said “coons”
It’s something of a red herring. No matter word he used, he was identifying Trayvon with a distasteful element that always gets away, and determined not to allow that to happen.
Strangely, I have heard “coons” at times and I have heard “punks” at times. I cannot explain this. I do think that it is possible that the Fogenite apologist who “analyzes” the word “punks” has actually not used the two syllables from the NEN call at all, but has created his own little clip to “analyze.” But I consider it a real non-issue. Fogen displayed his malice, ill will, evil intent, and his depraved mind on the NEN call and then he reinforced it later. His buddy Frank Taaffe reinforced it again for him and he never interceded or corrected that impression or had his lawyers do so. He gave Singleton, as a reason he found Trayvon “suspicious,” that another young Black male had previously been “suspicious” but he had not caught that other young Black suspicious male. This is not rocket science.
@Malisha, you are clicking on all cylinders my friend! My sentiments exactly.
Maybe he said ‘coof’.
(he could be a closet Burns scholar, afterall 😉
That’s it, must be! The world’s nicest man, must have said ‘coof’. Now that’s outdaded and not in common use, but it fits as closely as anything, (except coons).
LMAO — well, he’s no Rhodes scholar, so we could give Burns a tryout….
MollyK says:
March 11, 2013 at 10:39 am
You make a good point. I’ve always wondered whether GZ really used the word, “coon.” It seems archaic to me; do young people still use it, even in the south?
@
You mean archaic like the word /slang…..Homie….
Ive listened to that whispered venting of hatred an first time I heard Fn Khoons second time as well.
I dont hear goons or punks I hear a specific archaic raceial slur.
Most racial slurs are archaic be it the n word or whatever.
People whom use thease derogatrive slurs have an archaic midset .
Back to the days of slavery an people of colour knowing there subservient role towards there betters.
colin says
excellent point colin. this is what i was getting at when i stated that hate is taught in the home throughout generations. the family that i visit when i go to the south use these exact words in front of me – i guess they assume that because my skin lacks pigment that i am in agreement. i find myself walking out of rooms where such discussions take place, starting a major argument among family is of no real benefit. the best i can do is demonstrate with my own words and actions that i find those words and jokes to be offensive.
have no doubts – those archaic words are used in homes everywhere.
And in movies, we know how they were some influence 😉 How conveniently and quickly, the screenplay word ‘homie’ was dropped after the first interview. That the fogen first said Trayvon called him ‘homie’ seems to go to fogen’s mindset, how he was thinking of this ‘real suspicious guy’.
BTW, stupid question, what film was this?
oops, my mistake, homie wasn’t in the screenplay afterall, full credit to mr. fogen for that one!!
Fauxmccoy,
I agree I really never got the point that he couldn’t be racist because his great grand parent was black like he’s immune to it. I had a mixed kid with a black dad say to me your a N and N’s stink when I was a kid BTW I am also mixed but I never forgot that.
Exactly.
Back to the topic,
Thank you for another excellent, clear and well written article, Prof.
You are the first, don’t see any objective article based on what the law says over at the OS. Although the media analyst lawyer has informed two of the OS reporters, Weiner and Stutzman, that they might do well to look beyond O’Mara’s rhetoric from the last hearing and post hearing media blitz. Noexucses for repeating the MOM rhetoric without balancing their reports!
Two examples that they should get down to their local law library and spend a few hours. OR, better yet, shortcut their research by reading at http://frederickleatherman.com first.
To Dan Abrams:
To Jeff Weiner:
To Rene Stutzman:
Jeff Weiner’s post for that response (above)
Thankyou for the heads up Prof.
Although unless I dreamt it ….nightmare…
Im remember clicking on a link to an intervew yesterday.
M Omara said there would be no SYG or self defence hearing.
That his client wanted to be judged by a jury of his peers.
An a aquittall by them would mean more to him than a dissmissal judge.
Mr Omara is of course lieing like a rug just as he did when he first said there WOULD BE A SYG Hearing.
An then it was not SYG but a traditinal self defence hearing they would ask for the court to dissmiss the criminal case against his client.
All along he knew any such hearing would NEVER happen.
Many here an at other sites said the same.
He was simply pimping for donations an saying things he knew would apeal to fogens raceist suppoters.
Therse no chance of fogen winning a SYG hearing.
He was never standing as the gps will prove .
He was moveing an always moveing in the same direction of his victim.
An when he caught up with an illegally attempted to detain a squirming screaming Child.
Whom wanted no part in the Scareydudes agenda.
Trayvon was within sight of his home an refuge for the previous few days.
Whilst fogen was no where near the apartment he an his Wife were sqautting in rent free nor was he within sight. of his truck wich was not his truck but the finance companys.
Even the gun he used to MURDER TRAYVON wasnt his..
He had no chance of immunity an he has no chance of aquittal in a criminal trial.
If the jurours are sensible an weigh up the evidence in a just an fair mannnner.
Then a rightous verdict of GUILTY is the only just verdict.
ha – ha – all my *in order tos* Sorry. Wrote that in a hurry and didn’t revise!
Professor, clearly the defense doesn’t want to risk an immunity hearing and will bank on a jury trial. But will they deviously try to roll in the immunity hearing at trial in order to cross the constitutional wires you mention above in order to cause a mistrial or an appeal in order to cause as long a delay as possible? Is it possible to pull this off or can Judge Nelson prevent this?
Yes, good question. Does Judge Nelson have the power to just say “no” to such MOM-driven alternatives and to insist the horse stay well in front of the cart … or that it be put out to pasture once and for all?
Yes, she could schedule a hearing to consider whether the immunity hearing can be merged with the trial or held after the trial.
I would do that if I were the judge.
As of noon today, there was no request on the docket for any immunity hearings within or post trial.
Thank goodness Nelson can do that. Does a motion have to be made by the defense or the prosecution, or can she simply schedule a hearing?
They’re not even gonna try a SYG hearing; they’re saying they want to do it this way or that way so they can come up with an excuse for not having it, blame it on the judge or on this or that but not admit that they couldn’t do it because it would flop so horribly that no trial would even be necessary; he would have cooked his own goose and basted it.
This is another nail in the coffin for me I recognized it the first time I heard the NE call. Then later when he said he reached in his pocket and no phone that’s when he was hit by trayvon. I think he pulled his gun out on him from his pocket. I don’t believe it was holstered in the front of his pants. I’m not a man but I can’t think of any man that would put a cheap gun without a safety in the front of his pants pointed at his you know what…just saying doesn’t make sense
I don’t know about the ‘cocking’ sound, but I seem to recall that in one of his statements he said he took out his phone, and in the others that he just reached for it in his pocket. When he demonstrated doing so, he always went for his right pocket, which seemed odd to me, since he’s left handed.
I also noticed recently, when I was listening to a YouTube compilation from last year, that told a detective that I think must have been Singleton, that he ‘walked through the dog walk’, which is the term he and most of the other residents seem to use to refer to the sidewalk that runs behnd the houses, where Trayvon wound up being killed. In his other statements, he says he walked along the ‘cut-through’ to the ‘T’.
I believe he has said it was in his pocket in one interview and was not in another. Just doesn’t seem like a detail that would change if it was true. I wonder if they could have done some kind of forensics to determine if the gun was in fact in his pocket.
Which hand does he use to make the ‘phone’ gesture? That’s the likely pocket side.
Forensics? He carried his phone with him in the past, could have had it in pockets of jackets, so nothing new there. Hard to find anything that would mean he put the phone in his pocket at that particular moment, forensics might have to be a form of magic. Unless, the phone was damaged and could be linked to damage inside the pocket, or pieces found broken. Didn’t likely happen that way.
Forensics to find out if the gun was in his pocket.
It’s not that far fetched if an insurance company can chemical
Test a surface to see if cash was there why not a gun..
Elcymoo said,
He had his gun in a holster inside his waistband behind and to the side of his right hip.
Extremely unlikely that he would have kept his phone in his right rear pocket.
He is left handed but lefties learn to shoot right handed because most semiautomatics eject spent shell casings to the right and they do not want to get hit in the face.
When he demonstrated reaching for his phone during the video walk-through reenactment it looked like he was reaching for his gun.
LLMPapa provides a little demo of the shell casing path.
I expect the gps data to show that they were never in proximity at the T and with that, any stories about what the killer reached for while at the T will become moot.
I’m left handed but always put my keys and phone in my right pocket but yet when I want them for some reason I reach in my left hand pocket.I think this is a red herring.But I like you noticed the dog walk thing as well.I’m wondering if fogen was given his phone back when he was free to go home.If so where did BDLR get the information about fogen sending a vile text message about TM ‘S Father.Do they even have his old phone now God I must go back and reread the evidence.Imo Shelly was with him that night she could have dropped him off at the other end of the dog walk and he slithered up and Trayvon started running back up the dog walk.I don’t think we’ll ever know exactly what happened unless they have the gps . all I want is for people 100 times smarter than me to get this man in jail where he belongs.I just know I don’t need to be a frigging genus to figure out fogen’s story is a bunch of BS
You know, once a guy has followed you in a car, and then followed you on foot, and then he reaches into his pocket — any pocket, with either hand — you KNOW you’re under threat of great bodily injury or death. If you do NOT know that by the time he reaches into his pocket, you (a) have never watched a single television show during prime time; and/or (b) you are inferentially illiterate; or (c) you immediately realize that the guy facing you is Afro-Peruvian and therefore is “up to no bad,” so you have nothing to fear.
Malisha….would you fear something you’ve never seen before?
Such as an Afro / Peruvian?
Again, how can this be a nail in the coffin when there’s not yet any evidence to link the sound with the gun used in the shooting? We haven’t heard this yet from the state, and if jurors are now expecting to hear it at trial and it isn’t what people have speculated, then what? Do they think the case is weaker because they assumed there was a nail in the coffin that doesn’t pan out?
It may be, it may not be, there’s a lot of both sides, so can’t be left to personal opinion. Some say you have to rack the gun, others say no.
It has been compared with the same type of gun by a law enforcement person. If they don’t use it I guess that’s a missed opportunity along with many misses including checking the dog poop container for blood.
Well, if it’s the sound of that gun, (the law enforcement person should be able to have tested Shellie’s gun itself), and they conclude it’s the sound of that gun and not the flashlight or other incidental noise, it would certainly support the gun being drawn in expectation of a confrontation that night.
George said 🙂
Tzar,
That comment was after I posted the u tube video of him cocking the gun. Gz confronting Trayvon gun drawn is the only scenario that ties everything together for me. Especially the terror in Trayvons voice. I’m not saying I’m right it’s my theory. I wasn’t there either.
The comment that I posted was after you wrote that Trayvon hit him
Tzar, about your comment about the phone in pocket not there story as ‘George said’, would that be a ‘fogenism’?
oh..oh yeah…yeah I like that
tha’t gonna get used a lot 😆
Tzar, welcome to it, your post was the inspiration!
Professor,
Yes I agree it did look like he was pulling out a gun in his re enactment. I think it explains why Trayvon may have hit him because he approached him gun drawn and why he may have been seen on top of GZ holding his hand with the gun down. It just seems to put the pieces together
you keep saying Trayvon hit him but you admit that you were not there, so are you saying that because George said? but you’ve already said that you believe George to be a proven liar? and you also said that you don’t think it is good to make assumptions. So what are you basing this repeated claim that Trayvon hit him?
Tzar,
I know there wasnt any DNA on his hands so no I am not saying for sure he hit him. What I am saying is if he did hit him he had the right to defend himself. Not only if the gun was drawn but because what he admits on the call being a stranger to this kid and chasing him in the dark.
Please tell me how you think gz got the minor injuries.
Process of elimination. With none of GZ’s blood nor DNA on Trayvon’s hands/fingernails, those injuries were not inflicted by Trayvon.
The face scratches were already scalped as we see in the photos taken at the police station. The nose — probably recoil from the gun since GZ shot using only one hand. The head boo-boo’s — the EMTs reported that the blood had already dried on GZ’s head, indicating they were not fresh injuries and actually, the blood may not have come from the wound source.
Brandi, please take the hint from Tsar before he starts really stalking you on this issue. Trayvon had absolutely no GZ DNA or blood on his hands, arms or sleeves. Therefore he could not have hit him at all unless he was wearing gloves, none of which were found at the scene.
Trayvon would have been entitled to stand his ground and hit him, but the evidence says he did NOT, so…
He MAY have been on top holding down the gun hand, but there’s no evidence for that.
On DeeDee’s evidence, GZ did not approach Trayvon with the gun drawn. He drew it later.
Aussie and Tzar,
I understand what you are saying. Please understand me I live in a SYG state, i own a home in the same kind of neighborhood minus the crime, my son will be 17 in July, he is the only black boy in the neighborhood, and he also wants to join the navy and fly with the blue angels just like Trayvon.
So maybe trying to make sense out of this may seem silly to you Tzar but this case bugs the heck out of me I don’t know if I should only allow my son to leave the house with a tuxedo or if some weirdo could be molestor is chasing him can he defend himself.
@Tzar
Work it!
I can only tell you how he did not get them
Brandi says:
“Trayvon may have hit him because he approached him gun drawn and why he may have been seen on top of GZ holding his hand with the gun down.”
I do not agree.
Common sense tells me that the last thing one would do is hit a guy who approaches with his gun drawn and common sense tells me that that would be especially true of a teenager who had moments before fled in fear.
How can one reasonably believe that Trayvon Martin suddenly underwent a psychological turn around of that magnitude?
It is ludicrous.
To that endeavor it will help to keep the evidence in mind and not simply what the killer said. He typically does not make much sense himself.
With all due respect, it will only seem silly to me, if you try to do so using the word of the killer without consideration of the evidence.
So I would renew my question of upon what do you base the claim that Trayvon hit him? Do you believe Trayvon could hit him without leaving any forensics “prints”? Do you believe Trayvon hit him and then instead of running jumped on top of him without leaving any forensic “prints”? Do you believe Trayvon ran from him only to hide behind an invisible bush and to reveal his ambush before hitting him?
Brandi- except that there was no DNA found in Trayvon. He didn’t hold GZ at all.
Sent from my iPod
I think the gun was drawn but who would hit a person with a drawn gun? Not me and my grown ass….he tried to detain him then drew the gun.
@Xena, maybe the dried blood on his head, may be the animal blood that he reportedly had on him. there was so many LE officers who were willing to cover this murder up for Fogen and, I wouldn’t put anything past them even finding some animal some where to use it’s blood to smear on his head. even the blood from road kill would do in a pinch. which one of them may have been real good friends with a Vet, who may have had some blood from an animal in his/her office that they could get in order to put it on his head for the photos taken an the SPD. my motto is this, “TRUST NO ONE!”
@ladystclaire
GZ had animal blood on his sleeve, but more than likely the blood on his head was from Trayvon. Considering that Trayvon’s blood was also found on the bag of Skittles in his pocket, and that GZ frisked him, makes it reasonable to believe that GZ also smeared Trayvon’s blood on his head for the photo session with Jon.
Those head boo–boo’s, which I believe were acquired between Friday and Saturday, were already scalping as were the scratches on GZ’s face. After having his head cleaned by the EMT’s, it would only require picking at the scalps to get a trickle of blood for the photos at the police station. Why? Because with the EMT’s finding that the blood on GZ’s head was already dried, his boo-boo’s had stopped bleeding.
Considering the time of the photo session with Jon, there would not be enough time to obtain blood from another source.
As far as the non-human blood on the sleeve of GZ’s jacket, someone in R@TL is probably missing a dog.
Hi Brandi, you said earlier that Travon hit Fogen. Absolutely not. The forensics tell us that did not happen. No Fogen DNA on Trayvon’s hands/ nails. Did not happen.
I know they tested scrapings from underneath Martin’s fingernails, but did they test the fronts and backs of the hands themselves?
A punch wouldn’t necessarily have left the punchee’s DNA under the puncher’s fingernails.
unitron
Maybe no DNA found on hands but neither were there bruises on the knuckles. Can’t punch without hurting yourself as well.
Sent from my iPod
Three or more punches to a bleeding face PLUS three or more grasping of something (head, hair, ears, neck, pudgy cheeks, SOMETHING) to effectuate head slams onto concrete WHILE a victim lies on his back yelling “help me help me” will DEFINITELY result in SOME blood and DNA under the fingernails of the puncher/headslammer. To believe otherwise has something to do with immaculate conception or something…
Malisha- don’t you mean immaculate contamination?
Sent from my iPod
First of all, his pistol was holstered on the inside of waistband on his right butt cheek.
I read it was in the front
In listening only to the discrete sound as played above, it is convincing. However if you listen to the tape in it’s entirety, that clicking is followed by some additional sounds. My suggestion is that at that point George is playing with the flashlight he says he couldn’t turn on. Perhaps clicking it on, and then knocking it a few times when it didn’t come one. However–were there not two flashlights found at the scene–one of them south of the body, and weren’t George’s keys and another flashlight found by the t?
Yes, two flashlights. One,the “tactical” flashlight (DMS-6) south of Trayvon’s body, that fogen claimed was not working and was the reason he remained at RVC for intemittent time between the end of the NEN call and the alleged ambush by Trayvon. Serino informed him the flashlight was working.
The second (mini) flashlight on a ring with one Honda key(DMS-2) was found near the T. IIRC – that flashlight was found on.
These two circumstances have always bothered me in that I can’t find (in my own head) a workable solution to all of these devices.
I’ve got gun in hand, miniflash working in hand, tactical flash and cell in pockets – on the hunt. But then I have to account for the working flash at the T, when I don’t believe Trayvon was anywhere near the T. There’s the idea fogen planted it, based on the witness #13, but as much as I like any idea which shows more physical evidence for a conviction, Cutcher/friend and witness #18 don’t seem to have room in their accounts for this.
Since I’m firmly in the south to north debris field/altercation camp, I’m good with the placement of the tactical flashlight,where I believe the altercation took place. What I don’t understand is how that mimiflashlight got to the T, while being “on”, after the altercation, some 45-50 ft away.
Conversely, since I don’t believe a word out of fogen’s mouth, I don’t believe he just fell/dropped it there at the T for no reason, before an altercation that never happened there. He dropped his only working light, before going down a darkened path after one of these a-holes who always gets away? No, he didn’t. So, it bugs me… IJS
There’s one scenario I’ve been considering, and I’m very open to having it disputed, since I don’t really like it, myself.
What if fogen dropped the miniflashlight at the T, if he slipped and fell (and bumped his head?), as was the impression given by young Austin?
Nef05– I like dropping the keychain light and key, maybe without knowing or even realizing the light was on–perhaps as he went running after Trayvon. He likely had keys in hand when he left the truck, one hand on the phone. Maybe he thought he was putting them in his pocket and they dropped, or perhaps he was grabbing for either the gun or flashlight and dropped them in confusion.
I really am trying to think through the evidence without any preconceived notions from what George said happened. So far here, the evidence says that he hit two points along the dog-walk area, the “t” to the North and the point where the flashlight was found to the South.
Nef05, a thought on the flashlight/keyring at the T, is that as he came to the T, and who knows where he’d end up if he was not returning to the T via same route, a person could leave a lit or unlit flashlight keychain, at a spot he needed to return to, the correct T, to look for his car.
This way, he would be sure of having his key located with a quick sweep, support for his story, if it were planned to return the suspect via this route, to find the waiting cop, and ensure that the suspect wouldn’t end up with his car key, he did see the car afterall.
Just a thought, if this killer wanted to be extra safe with his vehicle key.
Do we know if the little flashlight was lit when it was found?
“Do we know if the little flashlight was lit when it was found?”
So far, those actually in a position to know say that it was.
unitron
Fogen wore the holster inside his pants on his right hip toward the back.
Thank you for these insights and key explanations. Much to digest now, amid your “they want it to disappear” bottom line, which makes total sense.
IMO, the defense never took the time or cared to examine all the evidence in depth until recently because of the Pro-Bono situation and “thinking” he would be granted a continuance. NOW O’Mara is under the gun (no pun) due to the denial of a continuance and he finally realizes that there is overwhelming evidence of guilt and that is the reason for dodging/cancelling the immunity hearing.
Or he has been reading this blog it is pretty popular
@SpecialladyT – did you see my message to you in the last blog entry?
Professor,
I was reading another post where you referred to his coons or punks and wanted to share a thought or opinion. This is why i think he did say punks and why. His Arab former co worker commented that he believed that he believed that he would go after anyone he saw as weak because of his experience wi GZ. He said he only picked on those he saw as weak and never picked on the military guys.
I think when he said punk he meant it like he’s a punk as in weak like a lot of people use that term to mean. He saw a kid he thought was a punk/weak and wanted to become a hero of the neighborhood by targeted someone he perceived as a punk or weak.
I have always felt this was premeditated. For several reasons just wanted to share that reason.
Thank you,
Brandi
You make a good point. I’ve always wondered whether GZ really used the word, “coon.” It seems archaic to me; do young people still use it, even in the south?
On the issue of strong and weak people, I’ve wondered whether GZ worked out regularly. He had been a bouncer and aspirations of working in law enforcement. I’d like to know whether he worked out, at a gym or at home with weights.
I haven’t personally heard it used by anyone unless they where referring to a raccoon. I’ve only heard it on movies. I believe he knew TM was younger weighed less and running from him I think he thought here is an opportunity. I wonder if Judge Lester was thinking the same when he called him an opportunist.
It seems as though I heard a reference somewhere to a local gang that calls itself “goons.” Anyone else heard that?
Lurker, yes, from the discredited witness Joe Oliver. He said it and got called out for that suggestion, as well as for what he claimed his daughter said was a term of endearment…. a term of endearment used after the expletive Fucking…. goon… What every young woman wants to be called by their friends.
The evidence should not be based on past media rants by the strange supporters who inserted themselves in the media. Unless the jurors have no hearing ability, they should be able to decide on the evidence of the 911 recording, if it makes it into evidence.
“Coon” is a term that racist people use no matter what their age is, and I do believe fogen is racist. Fogen has a problem with young Black males and this is evidenced in his history of constantly calling in on them and the murder of Trayvon Martin. Whatever he said, it was derogatory and meant to portray Trayvon in a negative manner.
i have certainly heard the word used by my contemporaries (i’m 48) while visiting family in the south. sadly, this was my own kin folk. i try to visit as little as possible. it is used. if parents use the word around the home, their offspring are likely to follow. hate, as we all know, is a learned behavior.
This is why I know he did not say “goons”: I listened.
Brandi…….
The vowel sound is unmistakable…….. oo as in pool.
I personally hear a “k” sound before that vowel sound.
@Tzar
This is why I know he did not say “goons”: I listened
Agreed!
The word is used, especially in the south.
diary says:
yup, have heard it with my own ears in the south and here in california when southern family members call or visit.
Tzar says:
March 11, 2013 at 11:39 am
This is why I know he did not say “goons”: I listened.
____________________________________
^5
FDLE interviewed some sergeant who specialises in gangs in the area and he stated there is a local gang called the Goons. So that is not only from Joe Oliver.
So saying effing goons would mean “effing gangbanger” ie yet another criminal.
But I am not saying what he said, I had trouble hearing 3/4 of what everyone says they heard.
(I also have trouble writing gangbanger, which I know you Americans use as a term for “member of a gang”, because here in Australia a gangbanger is a participant in a gang bang, which is a group rape. And we all supposedly speak the same language).
Coons? we have a brand of very nice cheddar cheese here called Coon, and there was a suggestion a few decades ago that the name should be changed because it is an offensive word. Commonsense prevailed. The cheese is named after Edward Coon, who invented the speedy method by which it is made. The offensive word comes from racoon.
Joe Oliver may get the chance to argue his opinion (NOT!) at trial! Watcha bet someone’s phone had a tap on it after MOM got permission for his client to talk to Joe again.
joe oliver is one pathetic excuse for a human being. i believe he was attempting to resurrect his failed career in broadcasting while acting as a member in questionable standing at ‘rent a black friend enterprises’. i have been aware of this character for far longer than most.
oliver was once a tv journalist in my neck of the woods and lost a major libel case (http://articles.latimes.com/1989-12-27/entertainment/ca-1204_1_big-sisters). how he went on to CNN after that is a major mystery for me, unless they were specifically seeking someone with skin pigment at the time. he was let go from CNN as well. like rene stutzman, the word ‘hack’ is too good for him. i think his motives were clear though – to get a foot back in the more lucrative broadcasting world.
The real ‘Twilight Zone’
Yes, Molly. That word is still used in the South. It’s a derogatory word, like its famous counterpart, used to remind the user of the worthlessness of his or her target. Once in this particular mindset, all bets are off regarding civility. Not shouted from the rooftops, but still used in a herd-like situation.
The short version history of “coon.” First applied to raccoon hunting when the dogs were brought out to tree a raccoon that was then shot and taken home, used for food and fur.
After the Civil War, it was applied to chasing Black men, and/or using dogs to locate Black men, who ran to get away from White men intending them harm.
Even after the state accepted “punks,” it sounded to me and most of the common sense world like coons. If this is played at trial, jurors will hear the unvarnished truth. The state doesn’t need to belabor this point.
Absolutely…..can’t make it look like it’s “..pick on PhatoldFogenPhoole time now can we !!
I hadn’t thought of it that way. From his angry tone on the NEN call, I always thought he meant it as in ‘young hoodlums’ – which he should know all about, since his old My Space page indicates that he was one of them.
I have most often heard someone calling another a punk because they ran from a fight or was scared to fight. He may have called him that because he was running and hiding from him. I think the Arab guy kind of makes it seem likely.
Occam much?
Tzar, you are letting your razor wit show!
@Xena
To add to what you said, “coon hunting” became slang for lynching.
@Dan Q. Smith
You’re correct. The word “picnic” has the same roots also. As Billy Holiday wrote, “Strange Fruit.”
“The word “picnic” has the same roots also.”
It would seem that reputable sources disagree
http://www.snopes.com/language/offense/picnic.asp
http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/question/jan04.htm
France was famous for guillotining, not lynching, and even then, mostly of whites, and for reasons of class and not race.
unitron
@onlyiamunitron. I already responded to you about the Snope’s rendering. They talked about the origination of the word in France — not how it became known and what it stood for in parts of America after the civil war.
That was actually my first version of the post, which appeared to have disappeared.
I figured out later, after re-posting, that it was probably trapped in moderation because of containing more than one link.
I guess it stayed there during the professor’s computer problems.
But that still doesn’t make anyone and everyone who uses the word picnic a member of the KKK.
I grew up in the South in the ’50s and ’60s and certainly heard my share of racist talk, but never heard “picnic” used to refer to lynching parties or anything else other than the original meaning.
unitron
And if you asked a biker if he was going to church,,,,,and he replied “yes”……would that make him a christian or a believer?
Going to “church” in the biker culture, is to attend the weekly club meetings……
Words, and their usage change over time and amongst cultures.
If a Brit asked you for a fag…….your response would be?
If not we would all still be speaking the Kings English.
“If a Brit asked you for a fag…….your response would be?”
Tell ’em sure, if they can smoke a menthol.
But the meaning or meanings a word might acquire later on does not retroactively change its origin.
So Xena’s assertion about the roots of the word “picnic” remain incorrect, regardless of how the word might have been used a century or more after it first appeared in France.
unitron
What a tool….my other post got lost. The only one that did. A bold faced liar.
Apologies if this is a duplicate, but it seems to have vanished enroute the first time.
“The word “picnic” has the same roots also.”
Reputable sources appear to disagree
http://www.snopes.com/language/offense/picnic.asp
and I just realized that the link to the second source may have thrown the first time around into the moderation queue.
unitron
@onlyiamunitron. Just checked the link to Snopes that you provided. What Snopes did was give the history of the word “picnic” deriving from a French word. Well, “raccoon” shortened to “coon” did not have an original meaning as a racial slur either.
For some today, “coon” is just a raccoon. For others, it’s a racial slur. For some today, “picnic” is a meal prepared to be eaten outdoors. For others, it’s a reminder of events of “coon hunting” and lynching.
I heard about the word “picnic” as a little girl, long before computers, the internet and email. Given — the knowledge of lynchings being a “picnic” was pretty much unknown in the North. I can understand a society that wants to use that word without it carrying a history of racial violence. What is more common to hear today is “cook-out.”
Being attached to lynchiing parties by some people in some areas a century or two later is not the same as not existing until being derived from “pick a nigger”.
Although I can see where that attachment could spoil the word for some.
unitron
Imagine what his take on the term BBQ is.
So your decision of the word heard on the 911 ‘F’n……..’s” is based not on what you hear, but based on your opinion of what choice of word would be more likely based on adding in assumptions?
You raise a good question. Some might go so far as to enhance your argument by adding opinions that this defendant is a good church going man, with a soft personality, the ‘kindest man ever’ (the Osterman’s, with noble ideals (the Ostermans), he would never swear in front of a woman (the Osterman’s), etc. Based on these opinions, you could assume he would never say the F’ing word either.
Could work a path using this logic, all the way back to he’s ‘innocent’ and don’t need a trial,based on hearsay, assumptions and personal beliefs.
BTW, if he believed punks = weak, then why did he need to carry a gun, a hidden loaded semi-automatic gun, a hidden loaded gun with no safety strap on the holster, a hidden loaded gun with no safety mechanism to interfere with a heat of the moment decisionloaded with hollow tips that are designed to stop (kill) and to do as much internal injury and pain as possible when it enters the body?
@ay2z Thank you! I was beginning to feel like I was in the twilight zone. whew!!!
No it’s based on what he admitted to saying and what the prosecutor put in the capias the recording sounds like garbage. He carried the gun because he intended on killing the person he assumed was suspicious person up to no good. He got hit when he approached the poor kid gun drawn. Unless you where there that night you like me and many others are assuming. I just am not assuming based on prejudice like many like you are.
Please excuse me for the last sentence totally unfair.
Tee hee hee
so because George said so (Since Serino got it from George)
George Said
The witnesses and the forensics were there 🙂
I’ve listened to the tape and could not say definitely what that expletive was. I didn’t hear “coons”. I don’t think it really matters. In my opinion, his racism is established by the fact that he has never offered any reason that he found Trayvon suspicious. Nothing that he said he saw Trayvon doing could by any stretch of the imagination indicate criminal activity or intent. If the police had come earlier in response to his call, they would not have been able to stop and question Trayvon.
So he found Trayvon suspicious because he was a young black man.
Sorry gang…..I have a very good audio system and it’s “coons” no way around it.
That’ll never do 😉
I did not hear the word “punks,” and neither did Officer Serino.
To ay2z sorry for different thought.Interview with Jahvaris Fulton TM brother.Found it on global grind but it was on CNN april 14 2012 with Sunny Hostin. I replied on last post hope this helps.
Why would he carry around a concealed semi-automatic loaded gun without a safety mechanism to use against “punks?” Because he’s a “punk” himself, and this is what “punks” do.
Even FogenHitler’s bought friend Joe Oliver admitted that it sounded like coons but he tried to play it off and said it sounded like “goons” LOL
awww, c’mon jun, it’s a term of affection! i ask all my friend to call me effin’ goon, don’t you? 😉 (see my above statements about oliver – he was a local newscaster for me in the late 80s before he got hit with a libel suit and lost. i did not think it possible to think less of him, but he exceeded expectations this year. google his name, sacramento and libel.)
I’ve been trying for years to get all my friends, White, Black, Asian, Hispanic, Alien, whatever to call me “DatNiggy” Seems like a lost cause…..Oh….that nickname was taken…..Never Mind !!
rats racer! i guess if we can’t even get our friends to call us what we wish, we’re just a couple of luh-ooze-hurs. speaking of which – i did notice a spelling error in one of your posts today. i’ve been meaning to discuss this with you ad nauseum … 😉
racerrodig – I would really, really, really, like to give Fogen the benefit of the doubt and leave race out of the case. Ultimately, I don’t think it matters because there’s still the issue of taking a gun to a fist fight, so to speak . . . I’ve listened to that damn recording 100 times and it sure sounds like coon to me too. Even with a bad recording I see no way to turn a puh sound into a koo. I’ve tried and tried to let that be and most of the time I even ignore it, but there it is.
I hear and understand 100%. But even as a 57 year old white male, I am beyond incensed that he used that word to the dispatcher at all. I doubt the state will make issue of it however.
My biggest thought is that he was setting Trayvon up the entire time for no reason……..that’s hatred.
Thanks, pat, that was kind of you. Will look for the interview.
@racer, I don’t have any sound equipment but, I heard him say E’fing *COONS* and you are right, there is no way around it because that is exactly what he said!
Well if chasing a kid running away from you because they are scared of you, and you do it with a car and a gun, while yelling “fucking coons” is a sign of affection, I do not need any affection from that camp of people LMAO
There is no juror that will believe he is a polite churchgoing mild mannered boy.
That NEN call is, at a minimum, a frustrated person full of rage and resentment. The a-hole comments, effing comments, and general upset tone in the call (over nothing I might add).
I had thought that his call could give good “state of mind” evidence. If I heard that call and found out the person that ran from him was dead, I would surely think the person that called killed him. It is obvious he has a lot of venom for that individual and was trying to escape.
I was willing to believe he said “punks” until I listened to it closely. Sounded like “coons” to me and that is why I said it.
Yes, the expression is dated, but so is “hommie.”
He uses dated expressions.
I wonder why the prosecutor said he said punks then. I thought it had been determined.
brandi – the prosecution stated ‘punks’ because that is what the defendant admitted to saying and for the purpose of issuing the capeas, it was damning enough when combined with the vulgar adjective preceding the word. if they have evidence to the contrary (and they may well) there is nothing that would prevent them from presenting such in court.
to bring this down to a more personal level, if you are pulled over for speeding, say doing 85 in a 55 mph zone, the officer routinely asks a variation of ‘how fast do you think you were going?’ knowing full well that they have you clocked at 85. the driver usually tries to mitigate the circumstances my saying something like ‘oh, i might have been going 70.’ BAM! you have just admitted to breaking the speed limit and the officer will write down what you have just confessed.
(helpful hint: this is why i always smile sweetly and say ‘why officer, i believe i was going the speed limit.’ more often than not, i receive a mere warning. i will also point out that i have not been pulled over for anything since 1985 in in my mid 20s.)
It sounded like “coons” to me too.
It’s “coons” sad to say….
Thanks fauxmccoy the capias is not set in stone.
Professor,
I respect that you are one of the few to call it what it is for him and his supporters racism.
I think the prosecutor used that term because it was accepted by at least one voice professional that she plans to call as a witness. This same voice expert says that the screams for helps are 95 percent not GZ’s. The prosecutor’s use of the word “punks” in the affidavit, IMO, was to appease any complaints of racism. She publicly accepted his opinion just like she accepts his opinion of the owner of the screams.
F***ng anything at that point proved that GZ formed an opinion of Trayvon prior to his going after the boy. Joined with “these a**holes, they always get away,” “sh**, he’s running,” and “the suspect” he demonstrates a depraved mind. He was mad as hell about the “recent break-ins” and wasn’t going to take it anymore!
Exactly Diary.
It would be a stretch to make it punks. But whether coons (meaning black people) or Goons (meaning gang members), in either case, he’s profiling. And the more damning piece is the “effing —– they always get away.”
Just struck me today that since there were two parties to the recorded conversation–George and the dispatcher–that this gets in whether George tesitifies or not. And I would imagine that BDLR can ask the dispatcher questions such as why he thought George was following (or asked him that question), why he advised him not to (not helpful to police to have untrained people getting in the way, etc), maybe even his impression of how George seemed (agitated, anxious, etc).
As I am seeing things right now, I am beginning to see the prosecution putting together a scenario as if there was never any story at all from George. Simply following the evidence trail of what is known without his claims about what happened. George followed, drew his gun (possibly when a click is heard on the NEN tape) confronted, scuffled, shot. Real clean.
When you clear your head of all that George claimed, things start to look different. And without George’s testimony, they never happened.
I listened with very good headphones, repeatedly, had my son (adult) listen and we both feel strongly the word was “coons”. The words mOOn and bUNk sound entirely different, as do coons and punks.
This may sound strange but I think he said goon not coon. Why do I say this? In Miami we refer to guys that don’t care about anything as goons, these guys are mostly killers and are into really bad crimes. This is why I think he said goon, its not a term of endearment like some Oliver wanted the world to believe. If a person is called a goon he is to be considered extremely dangerous & lack any self control or morals.
“He uses dated expressions.” — Frederick Leatherman
Perhaps because that’s what he heard growing up at home with Pops.
This is why I think he said coons, I listened
Tzar,
I agree he gz has proven himself to be a liar without a doubt. I thought since the prosecutor put punk in the capias it was determined. I don’t doubt he is racist I saw the 911 records and heard his co workers statement. I believe that this did not just happen because trayvon hit him for following him bs to me. I think gz had every intention to kill him when he left the truck. Look at his over exaggeration of the break ins and not informing anyone that an arrest had been made.
I don’t care what the prosecutor may or may not have determined because I listened and I know what I heard.
There is no evidence that Trayvon hit his killer. Only his killer said Trayvon hit him. the forensics support that Trayvon never got his hands on his killer.
That is good in theory – I suppose, but the reality of it just is not so.
I was actually going to give much more rise to the theory of the word being goon because of the merging sounds of fuckinGoon – so that was what I was ready to hear when I listened, thinking for certain that would be what I heard because of the way the sounds would merge and because I had already now made myself hear it in my head.
However, when I listened, I VERY clearly heard fucking coon. I did not have to listen again, it was clear as a bell the very first time. As someone who has listened to audio for a living for the last almost 20 years, I believe my ears and I know what I heard.
Like I said, in theory, your story makes sense, but when you actually listen, there is nothing, absolutely NOTHING that even remotely sounds like punks.
Again, I could understand goon/coon – similar sounds, especially with a word ending in ING in front of it – but there is NO way to get punk out of it. None. There is nothing in there that even remotely resembles punk. There is no p sound from the merging of KINGOON sounds, there is no uh sound like you would hear in pUHnk and there is no oo sound (like coon or goon) in punk.
After 20 years, I trust my ears.
Tzar,
Him approaching him gun drawn i made that point already.
P.S. And although I said I did not have to listen again, what I mean is often when you are not sure of a word you listen to it again and again until it becomes clear (though sometimes it doesn’t). In this case, it was clear from the first listen.
I am not saying that I ONLY listened to it once. I have listened to it over and over trying my hardest to hear something else, but coon is clear as day.
Now as far as “No it’s based on what he admitted to saying…,” I’m not EVEN going to go there.
I don’t know if coons is archaic or not. However, I believe racism is archaic, as is assuming someone looks suspicious because they are walking leisurely in the rain wearing a hoodie and they “look” like all the other “assholes” that always get away.
no idea what you are talking about
@Tzar
Could you check the music room when you get a chance, thanks.
ok
I actually think he said punks too. I think Fogen’s motivation was more self serving and not entirely racial, in that he wanted to be seen as some vigilante hero so he can earn some brownie points with the local authorities. But he is a coward and a punk in the same sense that he would only attempt to detain someone he thought was weaker and younger. He wouldn’t have dared to detain someone physically larger that he knows would whoop his tail, even if he had that gun. But the tables were turned on him, he got his butt whooped and took the cowardly way out, by shooting first (can’t really say he thought later, because he is a complete moron without this fundamental ability). just as his former co worker stated. He is a bully who loves to brag about his “tall tales”, plain and simple. But this time he has killed someone, and he will pay his debts.
Rnewton,
I pray he does pay for this because all this money this guy is raising it seems as if he has many like minded fools and if he walks it will be open season on our kids and that scares me to death as a mom
Have you listened to the recording of the NEN call?
Why not base your decision on what you hear, instead of what you think?
I have 4 computers and all have hi-tech speaker systems attached. He said “coons’ as much as I despise typing that word. Sorry, that’s what he said. Denying that is as bad as believing “datniggyTB” is actually an old high school nickname because of all his black friends and weight.
I call ’em like I see ’em.
rnewton32, BKC, this is not a game about what Fogen could have said based on hobby psychology. Although we may not be that far apart on that.
This is plain and simply about what we hear or as Rachael has suggested above about phonemes. A /p/ and a /k/ are simply different sounds. Just as no matter how you want to transcribe it: [kuːn] is different from [pŭngk]
In this context it is not about what we see or think, but about what we hear.
That’s why I consider this the most silly thing I have ever seen.
On the other hand if you don’t hear it, I guess we can live with that.
Ok usually that work let’s see what this code turns out visually: ŭ
I’ve seen I could have saved my breath.
Ok, WordPress does not accept the html code for phonetic symbols.
But even if he ‘meant’ to say punks or he was referring to punks but just happened to use the word coon…..why would he lie? It seems easier to say I said coons but i was using it to mean something like a punk but forget didn’t say that.
Listen for yourself
I isolated it and it sounds like coons to me
either or, both punks and coons are not endearing terms and are terms used when someone feels the other is trash
Yes it does sound like coon
@Brandi Kansas City said:
I am sorry and mean no offence, but I have to vehemently disagree. I absolutely do not believe that GZ meant “weak” or “sissy” when referring to Trayvon as a “punk” even if after some research I have found that in the US can unusually be used in that sense.(Please note I go with punks because our resident sound expert, “whonoze”, has deemed it to be so even though I do still feel I hear “coon” most of the time and in any case for the sake of the case in which the prosecution has accepted “punk” also as well as this post, “punk” it must be.
When interpreting the word “punk” with the rest of GZ’s words and actions in respect of Trayvon, it is absolutely clear GZ used “punk” in the more usual sense, a sense or meaning described by the following dictionaries I have consulted, only a very few of which included “weak” as one of the definitions, and the very few that did, always place it lower down in the hierarchy of definitions.
The usual meaning of “punk” as an insult is that of a petty criminal, thug, or even gangster (I have also checked the Spanish/English dictionaries which concur with English dictionaries and GZ’s mother tongue is by his own words Spanish):
MACMILLAN:
MERRIAM WEBSTER:
OXFORD DICTIONARY:
OXFORD ADVANCED AMERICAN DICTIONARY
CAMBRIDGE DICTIONARY:
(as an aside, the Cambridge example of usage makes me wonder which of the actors is actually the “punk”!!!)
AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY
THE FREE DICTIONARY
COLLINS ENGLISH-SPANISH DICTIONARY
WIKIPEDIA – ESPAÑOL
And GZ is not racist… my arse!
Errata, the “Note” at the end of the Wikipedia Español entry is not a quote from WP but my own addition.
IIRC, Whonoze said the defendant said “coons.”
Whoooooops… and all this time I was convinced he was saying it was “punks” and I never disputed it not to contrary him!
@gbrbsb
If you go to
http://www.youtube.com/user/Teeslaw/videos?view=0
Go to video “What Did GZ say?
You will see the break down.
🙂
To be fair, I’ve heard the term colloquially used as “feeling punky” as in starting to feel sick, but 99% of the time I’ve heard punk used it’s always as above – a thug, usually a young one.
That’s basically what I am saying (after researching in all the big dics I could find) but also that when in doubt over a meaning you have to look at context and considering everything else GZ was saying about his “suspect”, “weak” or “sissy” IMO does not fit at all.
You did a great job, gbrbsb! I’m impressed!
Thank you two sides… 🙂
Actually punks is a word to mean someone is weaker than you as well, as that is the modern usage of the term
For example, “punk ass bitch”, means the person is a wimp and is weaker than you in their opinion
And considering the context of the incident, FogenHitler called Trayvon a “fucking punk/coon” while chasing him on foot while Trayvon was trying to get away from him, and then in a couple minutes, Trayvon is killed by the defendant, it is safe to say the term was used in the context that “the defendant felt that Trayvon was a weak sissy lilly boy and trash”
Also considering Fogen is a career criminal, punk is the same as “bitch” in prison slang
I am thinking the dictionary has not updated their definitions to modern usage
good work, grsbsb, strictly I can train myself to vaguely hear it as punk, as in a picture puzzle, where you can change the image if you concentrate on it. But only as a response to the suggestion, in other words I have to keep the word in mind. And the coon is clearly more dominant for me.
In any case in this context Serino did a good job, no more experts needed, it’s incriminating enough in context. At this point Fogen forgot he could have said: I don’t remember.
I am not sure how a expert would handle the under the breath quality and strictly I have no idea to what extend this hinders distinct articulations.
I am curious what do you hear, if you follow Jun’s link and listen to it a couple of times?
@gbrbsb – hmmm…seems each one of those definitions fits GZs character to a T…considering what we know of his past.
@KittySP
My thoughts entirely.
So if GZ did say “punk” & not “coons”, which I am still half and half about albeit tending a bit more towards punk since re-watching Teeslaw’s YT video “What did GZ say” yesterday and after just now listening to LLMPapas video “Reasons why no SYG #8” posted today, I don’t see how that leaves GZ any less effectively racist because he is clearly profiling Trayvon as a young criminal and thug, and with his known history, as a young black criminal and thug.
Jun,
I agree. That is how the word punk is used nowadays. I think it does fit with what is going down.
Interesting, how easy it is to stir a conversation absolutely off topic. 😉
leander22 says:
March 11, 2013 at 6:20 pm “That’s why I consider this the most silly thing I have ever seen”
Wow, that is hilarious! I’ve never heard anyone so damned determined to convince himself of an obvious lie! LOL I mean he records his OWN voice to match the way he wants it to match! but the more he goes over it, the more it sounds like coons! how embarrassing! LOL
shannon, I do not have any idea about the techniques involved in sound software available today, I have to admit. A good friend works in movie sound, I should ask him. Is Diwataman a sound engineer, does he know what exactly the software visualizes? He does not tell us. He does not even tell us, what software he uses, so we can check for ourselves. How good is it in registering distinct phonemes. In other words would it be able to distinguish g and c and p? I cannot imagine if it is not combined with some type of voice recognition software.
You can probably produce vastly different patterns depending on the way you articulate it. It’s no doubt under his breath. Strictly I never did more phonetics than were absolutely compulsory. So I am not even close to something like an expert.
In any case, it does not matter what people hear or do not hear. As others have said, what matters is that this Fucking take whatever you prefer, combined with theyalways get away, shows that he assumes something about Trayvon Martin’s identity which is plainly wrong. And that is really all we need to know. No matter what slur he uses in talking about him.
they = coons, goons, punks
always get way.
One final note on Serino, or more precisely the interview were he confronts Fogen with the NEN call.
I realized I was wrong, when I listened to it again. Serino does not say: That is not what he says, but he says that is not who he was, or something similar. In other words all that does matter to him is Fogen’s “identification” of Trayvon with the burglars or goons. And as others he have written eloquently, I think it is all that should matter to us.
What a series of responses. 😉
“others he have written” – no idea why the “re” has disappeared but “he” should be “here”.
It sounds like he said coons to me when you isolate the recording to that section but either way, calling someone a punk, you obviously think less of them and that they are weaker, especially if you say it while chasing the other person with a gun
I think your right jun…. I did go back and listen to it. The word punk seems to fit his bullying personality according to th
You can’t say he said ‘punks’ because of how we think he perceived trayvon. He said COONS and that’s that… He does not get the benefit of doubt here.
Hi Brandi,
I too believe this was premeditated. On the other hand, Fogen, his family, and supporters are virulent racists. I don’t believe it’s complicated. I believe he said, “coons.” I hear it as clear as day. He said it under his breath because it’s a slur. “Coons” doesn’t sound anything like “punks.” I believe strongly that he said, “coons.” I wish for the sake of Trayvon’s memory that the truth about this will be known and told, as distasteful and hard to imagine as it may be.
Respectfully,
Dan
Danny
Hi Dan,
I hope the whole truth does come out and the smear this kids reputation campaign stops. I did listen again and it does sound more like coon than punks
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