Featuring: LLMPapa with two reasons why there there will be no immunity hearing

Papa’s back in the house with two excellent videos demonstrating why there will not be an immunity hearing.

Knox Update:

Searching Mind reviewed his copy of Spitz and Spitz, The Medicolegal Investigation of Death, which Knox cited as authority in responding to a comment that Lonnie posted at Knox’s site challenging his claim that GZ could have fired the fatal shot while lying on his back with Trayvon in the superior position straddling him. Knox accused Lonnie of bias and cited the text as authority for his claim that the trajectory of the shot is not inconsistent with the defendant’s position.

Here’s SM’s comment:

Knox claimed that “it is entirely incorrect to assert that Zimmerman could not have made the shot [i.e. the straight line shot, front to back, without angles] at that angle [i.e. Zimmerman lying with his back on the ground while Trayvon was mounted on top of him, leaning over him, straddling him suffocating him, etc.]. “It is quite possible”, Knox claimed further. To support his claim, Knox referenced “Spitz & Spitz, The Medicolegal Investigation of Death”. Nothing in the book cited by Knox (and it’s called “Spitz & Fisher” not “Spitz & Spitz” of which I have a copy) supports Knox’s claim. Knox knows- or should have known that. What he did is the same as inserting non-extent sources in the footnotes of an academic paper.

313 Responses to Featuring: LLMPapa with two reasons why there there will be no immunity hearing

  1. nocamo33 says:

    Not sure if the prof or papa have honed in on the following comment or if this is the best place to bring this up. I copied this quote from a YT poster who brought up a good point I don’t recall anyone ever addressing. I remember “Fogen” (why do you call him that?) making this comment about asking John to help him restrain Trayvon, but it didn’t click at the time that he was saying he was trying to restrain Trayvon BEFORE he killed him. This flies in the face of everything he said about the events that occurred just prior to the shooting.

    LSimon321 “#2 GZ told John he didn’t need him to call 911, he already called, he needed John to come help restrain this guy. John at least insinuated that he was in the process of calling 911 when the shot was fired not after TM was shot. John could be lying to keep his own arse out of prison. He and his woman have stayed well hidden and GZ doesn’t seem to think their testimony is enough to bring doubt to the state’s case so they keep going on about DD hoping her BP will get the best of her.”

  2. ay2z says:

    Tom Hanks does the Shimmy Shimmy co-co version from BIG,

  3. Bill Taylor says:

    from day one his whole story has been preposterous, that an unarmed teen that had no record of ever being in one fight in his life suddenly decided i am going to try to MURDER this guy with my bare hands.

    that anybody believes him is very scary to me.

  4. dianetrotter says:

    If he shimmied down, would not TM’s knees be close to GZ’s armpits. GZ’s arms would have to be forced upward.

  5. SpecialladyT says:

    Professor, I have just witnessed a list of Tracy Martin’s kids names and date of birth posted on a Facebook page. Is this illegal and what should we do about this?

    • I do not believe there is anything we can do about this. Tracy should report this to the prosecution as it might provide a basis for prosecution for witness harassment and intimidation.

      Witness intimidation in a murder case is a felony punishable by up to a maximum of life in prison.

      If any of the information is false and I suspect it is all false, the misrepresentation could be the basis for a civil suit for defamation.

      Of course, even the strongest lawsuit imaginable is worthless, if the defendants do not have assets or income that can be seized to satisfy the judgment.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        as i was told in my youth you cant get blood out of a turnip!

      • SpecialladyT says:

        Thank you for your response, the information is in the appropriate hands as of 30 minutes ago.. 🙂

      • cielo62 says:

        No money? Just send them to jail.

        Sent from my iPod

      • towerflower says:

        My guess is the FB poster got it from the nuthouse since they were talking about it and listing all the children’s names and year of birth.

        • Xena says:

          Is there any other way that Zidiots can make it more apparent that GZ has no defense and will be convicted? If all they have to support GZ are attacks on Trayvon’s parents, it speaks volumes about Zidiots already being sore losers. I don’t care if Tracy had 25 children by 20 women, that still does not prove that accused murderer GZ killed Trayvon in self-defense.

      • towerflower says:

        Xena said: “I don’t care if Tracy had 25 children by 20 women, that still does not prove that accused murderer GZ killed Trayvon in self-defense.”

        So true, but in their peanut sized brains they seem to think that it does matter. They seem to think that if their theories are proven correct it will prove fogen innocent, yet all they are doing is spinning in place and they don’t realize that nothing they say about the parents will impact the case.

        • Xena says:


          So true, but in their peanut sized brains they seem to think that it does matter. They seem to think that if their theories are proven correct it will prove fogen innocent, yet all they are doing is spinning in place and they don’t realize that nothing they say about the parents will impact the case.

          It’s called intimidation. Zidiots think that Tracy will be humiliated and forget that accused murderer GZ killed Trayvon — cry a river to Corey who will then dismiss charges against GZ.

          You see, Zidiots use emotional blackmail and extortion in their own lives, so think it works on others too.

      • Malisha says:

        Those who published it, whether it is true or not, are just jealous because he’s obviously more “productive” than they are. It makes me laugh. Having a little problem with your self-images re virility and all that, guys? Whassamatta, didn’t have to give out any cigars recently? (Go piss up a pole.)

    • Jun says:

      The best thing to do is screenprint it and find the website profile address of the person who posted it

      and then message them to delete it or else if you feel they are a danger, it may be best to report it

  6. Lonnie Starr says:

    Judging Michael Knox’s reply by it’s fashion and style, which has become familiar to me over half a century of debates. I had already marked him a charlatan, trying to further his threadbare con job currently exposed.

    Now comes this post where Professor posts a search of Mr. Knox’s authority, by Searching Mind, that confirms my suspicions once again. Thank you guys and believe me I just love when this happens. So, my guess that Mr. Knox had no authority, turns out to be confirmed as true.

    What?!? Did he think that no one would either notice or care that he was attempting to hurt the reach for justice, on behalf of an innocent child who lost his life, because the outrageously criminal George Fogenhats decided he has a right go go around killing black children whenever he so chooses?

    The Orlando Sentinel’s staff has taken a decidedly racist slant on the news reporting they’re doing. Their failure to report truthfully and/or fully, and seek qualified opinion and guidance when they report things they don’t understand, is hurtful to the memory of the friends of a child who lays slaughtered at the hands of a deceitful man, who has yet to tell the truth about what he did.

  7. Two sides to a story says:

    By the way, I love the comment – “When justice fails, karma prevails.”

  8. Jose Baez is speaking out on this case and saying it is weak.
    What does this mean with Baez speaking out like this considering the lead detective in this case has hired him ?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Kinda dicey, in my opinion. Makes you wonder if Serino is perhaps supporting Fogen’s story after all.

    • It means that you can count on Baez to say nothing that will hurt Serino.

      Therefore, it’s probably safe to assume that he said the case appeared to be “weak” because Serino told him that’s how he initially saw it.

      He should STFU since he has a client in the case.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It’s amazing to me that what Serino thought is not admissable – I see logically that this isn’t part of case evidence that any decisions in the case rests on, but it seems also to be very important to the overall spectrum of how the case proceeded. Serino’s full story might lay to rest many rumors – either how SPD wasn’t doing anything, or might even support charges of corruption in SPD. Of course, all that is an entirely different case, I suppose.

        I can only hope Serino will some day spill his entire story honestly in a book.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ooh, question. Why does Baez sound as if he wants to land on the side of Fogen, then? Why does he want to encourage more of the defense strategy of trying the case in the media? This interview only encourages OM and team to keep spouting inaccuracies.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        LOL – guess I can go full circle to my comment above -” Baez speaks as a defense attorney and has a vested interested in attracting customers.”

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Isn’t he just protecting Serino by saying the evidence is weak, and that’s why Serino seemed to vacillate back and forth until the petition and public outcry led the governor of Florida to appoint a special state prosecutor.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Malisha’s theory is that there is a cover-up of the SPD cover-up going on, and that Wolfinger and Lee will be protected in order to minimize the appearance of police criminality. I thought that was a bit far-fetched, although Baez’s declarations now make her theory look more likely.

      • Malisha says:

        Cercando, thank you. Stay with me now — I’m working with a 36-year knowledge of cover-ups and how they work and how they are “disappeared.”

    • jm says:

      Jose Baez is speaking out on this case and saying it is weak.
      What does this mean with Baez speaking out like this considering the lead detective in this case has hired him ?

      What Jose Baez speaking out to me means he loves the spotlight and can’t stay out of it. Not sure if it would benefit his client if he said the case against Zimmerman was strong. The point is Jose Baez has an ego that causes him to say just about anything as long as his name stays in the headlines – although his name was just brought up during Casey Anthony’s bankruptcy hearing last week in that Anthony told judge her source of support since release from prison was from the sale of pictures by Baez that she agreed to pose for.. Baez is a sleaze.

  9. ay2z says:

    Don’t know about a lot of Christian’s, the C of E has had black priests for ages. Even for regions that had no black residents, at least none I was ever aware of.

  10. colin black says:


    I M O

    Babylon was not created by makeing peoples of differing nations speak in different voices/languages/

    No it was created by makeing people no longer colourblind regards race.
    That is what created conflict an hatred amongst humans differing shades .
    Not differing words.

    We all evolved from a small group of humans whom journeyd out of Africa probably 6oothousand years ago.
    Less than three thousand people made it of the continent of Africa an onto the Mediterianian an beyond.

    They know thease numbers through the study of mycrodial D N A.
    We are related to every one of those souls an everyone of them were Black.

    Its only through the spread of the human population over generations.
    And differing climates an conditions helped shape faceial features .
    Climates also began to alter skin colour as well mallanonin or lack of it can make all the diference in hot dry climates.
    Opposed to cold an wet or frozen conditions.

    Thats all skin colour is evolution at work to help us to addapt to diffrent climates an conditions.Underneath we are all 100 percent the same.
    Thats why a Chinease Woman can have an Africans Baby we are one an only one species .
    Well actuall probably have a smattering of Neandrathrall within us as well.
    Because we were also compatable with them as a fellow human species.

    So all thease white supremists ect have it wrong.
    They are not the pure race if anything we are a mongrel race .
    If like me a caucasian or celt people hailing from Africa are more like the original humans then me.

    Do I care not a jot an I know raceism isnt based solely on colour.
    It is solely based on intolarance of others customs cultures an beleifs though.

    Now I know a lot of Christians an other religions think evolution is hog wash.
    Each to there own i m o though the beleif in a greater intelegence /God/?…
    Does not mean evolution is a myth infact we speculate the Universe sprang into existance out of nothing 15 billion odd years ago.
    An if thats not miraculous then nothing is.

    • ay2z says:

      ‘The Most Astounding Fact’

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      It is actually only 80000 years ago and probably a couple of 100 people that first migrated out of Africa. Before modern humans left Africa, they were on the verge of extinction. There were only about 6000 modern humans left. We all originate from this small group of people. Race has no meaning. Genetic diversity is greatest among Africans. The nearer to the source the greater the diversity.

      • ladystclaire says:

        You sure as hell will never get some people to accept this “FACT” of how we as a society began. we all know what people I’m talking about, now don’t we?

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        People we share a lot of DNA with?

      • towerflower says:

        National Geographic has a DNA project. Basically you pay a fee and they trace your background via your DNA and give you a detailed report on it. It shows what Amsterdam says, how we all originated in Africa and then started the move out. It will give you a breakdown on where your DNA was and how long ago. It traces the splits from Africa, the middle east to Europe and Asia and beyond.

        My sister did this and it was real interesting.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Amazing universe, enit?

  11. colin black says:

    ay2z says:

    March 9, 2013 at 8:25 pm

    Now I get the reference to citation misrepresentation by Knoz. Thanks, Prof, I didn’t read SM’s comment.

    Knox does it all, doesn’t he! Is he really, to quote his cv, ‘enrolled’ presently in his post grad studies and who is his advisor? And is this by distance education or by mail? To list a PhD is also misrepresentation, even with the little note on the end to say he’s ‘enrolled’. He hopes it will fool some of the people, enough to impress as an ‘expert’.

    We are all currently members of the Profs teaching an learning about the law blog..
    Therfore I feel confident enough to state that I can rightfully add every honour an letters of the alphabet type degrees to the end of my name.
    And also add all his qualifications to my own C.V..
    Given the undisputed fact Im enrolled in his teaching blog an Im a quick learner.

    Colin Black Phd. Bsa. Mma. Add M B E .Ba,L h e. B S.M o b. B S…

  12. colin black says:

    Leroy Eugene Hudson says:

    March 10, 2013 at 3:04 am

    Lost cell phone of the image? That isn’t surprising. I’m willing to be that phone had dozens of images that could be recovered if the phone wasn’t lost. A lost Iphone? Really? Thought they could be tracked

    Lost his phone acidently on purpose.
    After downloading that imafe of fogen onto a laptop.

    Remember wjat Dorner the ex L E Said in his manifesto.
    Hoy cops in his division like to take photos on there ipods or cells .
    An swap them back an fourth later to see whom has the most grusome pic .
    Wouldnt suprise me if similar ocoured in many LE stations includeing S P D.
    He had to ditch that phone no matter how suspious it looked.
    Probably nothing what so ever to do with foggen .

    I expect he would never receive a pension or have employment if higher ups an decent honest investigaters ever saw the contents of that officers cell an images stored on it.
    Wouldnt suprise me if his pc or hard drives have gone for a burton as well.
    Or at least been swaped out an burried or micro waved.

  13. Why don’t Jose Baez go sit his ___ down someplace? Just shut up, Jose Baez!

    Jose Baez: Evidence ‘so weak’ in George Zimmerman case

    Jose Baez turned analyst on the George Zimmerman case and gave viewers of preview of what they might see in coming months.

    “I have never seen a high-profile case that is so weak as the Zimmerman case,” Baez told Lauren Rowe on WKMG-Channel 6’s “Flashpoint.” The program aired Sunday morning.

    Baez said he based his view on the evidence and not on his representing Chris Serino, the lead Sanford police investigator in the case. “I just think looking at the overall case, it’s extremely weak,” Baez said. “I had that opinion from very early on in the case.”

  14. I am simply appalled at what I just finished reading! Yes, I paid the $9.99 to purchase an electronic copy of Knox’s book for my Kindle on my iPad. Everyone on this blog needs to read his book!

    It is certainly not written objectively; he includes commentary that leans toward GZ’s innocence throughout; he includes no information about forensics except for the intermediate/close range issue with the body and the garment; and he states that forensics proves at GZ was on his back throughout most of the encounter and that it is a fact that GZ had a broken nose.

    The bulk of his book was a recap of all interviews taken in the case, from witnesses to GZ’s. He does not, however, mention anything about inconsistencies in GZ’s statements nor does he raise the issue about the discrepancy between GZ’s falling straight back from the punch at the T and the 40 feet migration of Trayvon’s body.

    As he reported the interviews, he also injected his own commentaries in support of GZ.

    Someone with a strong knowledge of forensics needs to read this man’s book and write and publish a detailed book on the forensics of this case while pointing out the massive amounts of forensics that Knox leaves out of this self-published book.

    In his recap, he even refers to W6’s initial statement and says that the only explanation to the intermediate/close range discrepency is the sag in Trayvon’s clothing, which proves that Trayvon was on top.

    Knox makes no mention of his May 2012 statement about the possibility of Trayvon’s clothing being grabbed and pulled by GZ.

    In my opinion, many players in this case have committed professional suicide because of unprofessional and unethical conduct. Knox has just placed himself on that list. He had no business publishing a book on his biased spin on this case before the trial has taken place. If he has been used in the past by the state and various other levels of government as an expert witness, this attempt to either make a quick buck on this case, appease someone who pursuaded him to publish such a publication, or both, has caused his credibility as a professional in the field.

    How dare he use his respected professional position to push an agenda of further adulterating the potential jury pool. This man needs to be brought before his superiors and repremanded severely!

    • Trained Observer says:

      I hope you zonked Knox in a review of his book on Amazon or wherever you bought it.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Thanks, TO for taking the time to post here and at Amazon. It’s very important that other views are posted.

      Either Knox is paid off by the prosecution or he is promoting his personal opinion without regard to the full spectrum of evidence. Otherwise, as you demonstrate, he’d be examining issues he doesn’t cover.

    • My opinion of Knox is very low. I think he is dishonest, unprofessional and unethical.

    • Lynn says:

      Click to access sample.pdf

      For those just wanting a taste of his crap without giving him the $9.99, here is the first 2 chapters. That was enough for me. He is a Zimbot in every sense of the term. Take me to your leader. Any sane person can see who has his loyalty. I checked his 2 twitter names @KnoxForensic and @KnoxForensics and looked at his handful of people he follows…Fox, Hannity, NRA, Junior. Reads like the non-biased person he claims he is. Humph! Oh, wait…I’m sooo wrong cause he has Crump and Natalie in there. Keep your enemies closer so the saying goes.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Thanks … and ick.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Mr Knox begins his book with an outrageous lie, At a time when barely anyone outside of RATL knew of any murder, it wasn’t the public forming misconceptions about the case, it was, in fact, the police themselves who were pushing the false narrative that they could not disprove GZ’s stories, even though those stories were in conflict with one another. In fact, under Florida law, had GZ been sworn in and under oath when he gave these stories, he’d already be serving a very stiff sentence for perjury, under their conflicting statement subsection.

      • Xena says:

        @Lynn. I read the sampling of Knox’s book and thought geez — all he does is repeat what we’ve already heard, even to criticizing the President for saying if he had a son, he would look like Trayvon. When I read Knox state the “rush to judgment” accusation, it sounded too much like Junior.

        It doesn’t help that Knox’s book is self-published by his own publishing company. Recipe, crafts, etc. books that are self-published is understandable. However, someone promoting himself as an expert in forensics should be able to get a publishing house to finance, publish, distribute, and promote his book.

    • Malisha says:

      He’s not committing professional suicide. He’s advertising his trade to the Florida lawyers who need to hire a whore. He’s in it for the money and he’s doing himself big favors. Do you think that trials that don’t receive this kind of publicity can’t be purchased for $25,000 a pop? They CAN.

  15. Trained Observer says:

    Jose Baez weighs in via Orlando Sentinel —

    Jose Baez: Evidence ’so weak’ in George Zimmerman case
    posted by halboedeker on March, 10 2013 9:00 AM

    Jose Baez talked to the Sentinel in January. Photo credit: Joshua C. Cruey/Orlando Sentinel
    Jose Baez turned analyst on the George Zimmerman case and gave viewers of preview of what they might see in coming months.

    “I have never seen a high-profile case that is so weak as the Zimmerman case,” Baez told Lauren Rowe on WKMG-Channel 6’s “Flashpoint.” The program aired Sunday morning.

    Baez said he based his view on the evidence and not on his representing Chris Serino, the lead Sanford police investigator in the case. “I just think looking at the overall case, it’s extremely weak,” Baez said. “I had that opinion from very early on in the case.”

    Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin in Sanford last year.

    Baez, who successfully defended Casey Anthony, is likely to be called by media outlets to offer his views when the trial starts in June. Baez gets people talking, and TV will play up his victory in the Anthony case.

    Baez cited several reasons for his take on the Zimmerman evidence: The only eyewitness says that Martin was on top during the fight, and Zimmerman told law enforcement he was screaming for help during the fight, a point backed up by a 911 tape.

    But Baez refused to predict an ending. “You can’t call this one without letting it play out,” he said. “You just never know what’s going to happen. You can’t call it. Trials are not scripted events.”

    Rowe and Tony Pipitone also asked Baez about Anthony and her bankruptcy hearing. The media crush outside the Federal Courthouse in Tampa brought back unpleasant memories “of some of the madness that surrounds this case,” Baez said. “The madness of seeing her accosted outside of the courthouse and attacked in that way, it wasn’t a pretty sight.”

    Baez complained that Anthony faced a double standard because she wouldn’t have faced any creditors in a regular bankruptcy. Baez called Anthony “an indigent person” and “yet there are prominent attorneys trying to squeeze water out of a rock here.”

    Baez questioned the assumption that Anthony’s story could be worth a lot of money. But he wouldn’t discuss any money that he collected for photographs she posed for, and he wouldn’t say if the outlet that paid for them was TMZ.

    “Any money she received from my office was in the course of legal representation. It wasn’t something that I gave her personally out of my pocket,” Baez said.

    The WKMG appearance allowed Baez to promote his book, “Presumed Guilty,” and to discuss positive feedback he has received. “I never wrote the book to be a book about ‘this is Casey Anthony, the innocent person,’ ” he said. “I wanted people to understand the jury’s verdict.”

    Baez saw a connection between the Anthony and Zimmerman cases. “There is never ever closure with these tragedies. They’re going to go on,” Baez said.

    • ay2z says:

      I am shocked that Baez ‘can’ be out in the media again commenting on this case when he has a major witness for some side, under his wing. He knows things, and that can shape his opinions, statements (or be seen to) he’s using as a media analyst?

      Baez is still speaking about his (ex) client’s case, which feeds interest in media hiring or otherwise, using him.

      Has Chris Serino made a critical mistake in choice of lawyer to velcro to his hip?

      • Trained Observer says:

        Ay2, yes, to me there appears to be a conflict of interest. Timing may be the issue … on multiple interviews with different media, and the TV columnist’s order of presentation . Am not sure when Baez took Serino on as a client. As for his “very weak case” opinion, I’m wondering compared to what?

      • Malisha says:

        Chris Serino did not make a mistake in his choice of lawyer. Serino is the most political smart person associated with the SPD. There are plenty of political cops in there, but they’re not also smart; Serino is both.

        He hired Baez to help HIM protect HIMSELF. He also wanted Baez to pop the two first drafts (the “Murder-2 papers”) on O’Mara to show that Serino had it pegged right. NOW, though, Serino is swinging with O’Mara’s and West’s and Corey’s concerted effort to sway public opinion so they will accept a plea deal rather than a trial; Baez is his “go to guy” to help make a plea deal possible. The lame-stream media and experts like Knox who know they will never see a courtroom and big-mouths like Dershowitz who loves the camera and movers/shakers like Baez who is smarter than all of them put together are now selling the story that THE PROSECUTION CANNOT HOPE TO WIN so that a plea deal is not considered a sell-out.

        Don’t worry. Baez will be compensated for his cooperation in selling that false story to the public. The only one I trust in this whole thing is Debra Nelson. That’s why neither side wants the whole case to get in front of her.

        • cielo62 says:

          Malisha- I just don’t see the prosecution giving up a sure win. Once GZ is in jail, the other players will be forgotten. Justice isn’t blind do much as incomplete.

          Sent from my iPod

  16. ladystclaire says:

    @Mary Davis, this is *ignorance* from white racist in this country and, nothing good will ever come their way and they will always find that, their blessings well always be blocked due to the fact, that they can find it in their heart and souls to hate other people only because of the color of their skin.

    The entire world is seeing the worst of the worst in the white race, thanks to the *IGNORANT* WHITE RACIST who are making things look bad for decent white folks in this country. and to think that some of those who hate this kid and his family, are in fact mothers themselves. they have no shame plain and simple and, they are lacking in the morals dept and, that’s for certain. they cannot hurt Trayvon any more and, that’s for sure. he is in the arms of Jesus and, this is something that they will never know. it’s really awful that as people who have a different skin color, African Americans have always been looked down on by racist whites who think that this world belongs to them. how sad this really is.

    • @ladystclaire

      These are the people who claim to be Christians. Talk about being spiritually blind! God is the author of peace not hate.

      1 John 4:20

      If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

    • I really think its unfair to catagorize people as whites racists in such a way. It’s really a distinction of what you’re exposed to and what you’re trained to be leary of. I think people have been duped by a misinformation campaign and then trained to view any corrections as an attack on their soveriegn right to rule, there is really nothing people can do to get around such a defense mechanism. How do you tell people we are your equals when they’ve been convinced they’ve done everything and you’ve done nothing.

      Ask yourself, when was the last time you saw a white 9yr old girl like this http://paulagortazar.blogspot.com/p/ethical-limits-in-documentary.html Now what is in your mind that you decide to wait there for 20 minutes till the vulture got close enough instead of helping this child rather than taking her picture. You have to convince yourself that this child isn’t deserving. What if this child was white? Would people put a different value on it? http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6HPUM3Up-9M/Ta3F3z7pqKI/AAAAAAAAAXM/YEw49WvpeW8/s640/kc.jpg

      People aren’t racist as much as they’re duped, they’re brainwashed, they’ve lowered the value of other races because of it and subsequently engage in inhumane behavior towards them but intolerant of such behavior towards their kind. They can change.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think we have to be on guard for hatred of Fogen, his defense, team, his family, and his supporters. Just a thought:

        Strength from Love
        People are afraid that if they let go of their anger and righteousness and wrath, and look at their own feelings—and even see the good in a bad person—they’re going to lose the energy they need to do something about the problem. But actually you get more strength and energy by operating from a place of love and concern. You can be just as tough, but more effectively tough.

        – Robert Thurman, “Rising to the Challenge: Cool Heroism”

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I saw plenty of photographs growing up, of starving WWII Caucasians, snapped by Life Magazine photographers who didn’t help their subjects at all. The vulture/child photographer at least shooed the bird away.

        The Sudanese policy, of starving millions in the country’s south and west who don’t share the dominant religion or appearance, is horrendous and the photograph came to illustrate what that policy meant.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        reply was intended for the following post by Leroy E Hudson

      • ladystclaire says:

        I call it the way I see it and, when people dress up in bed sheets wearing a pointed hood/hat, they are not brain washed or duped into joining such groups. they do it because they are racist against certain other races of people. I am in now way including all white people as being racist because, they are not. I’m speaking of those who support this POS and, think what he did was right because it wasn’t.

        How could anyone donate money to him knowing what he did and is now LYING about it in a effort to get away with murdering this kid. these very same people have hacked into Trayvon’s social media accounts and, they have placed things there themselves and, are wanting the public to believe that this kid was a thug, which they themselves see him as and they are encouraging others who are like them, to do the same.

        Trayvon wasn’t a thug and, he never tried to kill the one who killed him. I just don’t understand how some people can be so filled with hatred against this kid who was bothering nobody. he was minding his own business and, that is something I bet Fogen wishes he had been doing himself. the POS is crying in court now, I can just imagine what he will do, when a guilty verdict is read. he knows that he is going down. be it by the state of Florida or by the Feds, one way or another he knows that he is going down.

      • xy11xy says:

        So if they’re not Racist, then they’re dupedist?…but then how would you distinguish a person duped by a financial scammer from one who has been duped to hate minorities?

        And if there is a dupee, then who is the grand duper…if you will? Who is the master duper, father to all the dupees?

        I think the term “Racist” doesn’t attempt to account for the various reasons why one is racist.

        • Enjoy reading your take on the case, but I would like to see you and Piranha Mom bury the hatchet and move on. She has been a regular participant here since the beginning and has contributed many excellent ideas. I do not believe there is a good reason for continued hostilities.

          Please dial it down.

          We are all on the same team here and respectful intelligent dialogue is highly valued.

          • xy11xy says:

            @ Frederick Leatherman

            PirahnaMom and Cielo have told me that I have no right to be here, and have not “earned” something or the other. They have said that I am something called a “newbie”, and that that designation disqualifies me to speak or interact with others.

            Of course, I know this is rubbish.

            In addition to it being rubbish on it’s face alone; it’s not dissimilar to the attitude by residents toward one 17-year-old boy walking in a so-called gated community.

            That attitude was was vile. It was offensive. It led to the slaughter of a child deemed NOT to belong.

            How illuminating to find that same attitude OPENLY expressed here by PiranhaMom and Cielo, on your blog, toward someone(myself) designated a “newbie”…whatever that is.

            How illuminating to be told that I do not belong; that I have not earned entrance, that I am “green”…whatever that is. I am, in fact, BLACK.

            I suppose if one was an evil un-genius, Professor, openly expressing such an attitude and implying, without challenge, that it is condoned by the blog owner, and by other participants, would be the perfect way one could disparage a blog that aims primarily to speak on matters of law, but also aims to seek justice for that same dead boy.

            But PiranhaMom doesn’t think it un-genius; she told me that she is “smart” and that I should watch her work.

            But you are much too intelligent to fall for that low-brow ruse.

            You can have whomever you want on your blog, Professor, you just CAN’T have it both ways.

            Here’s to illumination!

          • cielo62 says:

            Xy11xy- you dissemble so well! I never said you didn’t belong. However,I DID say you have no right to insult a fellow poster, especially one who has been here long term. In fact, nobody on here as the right to demean, belittle, harass, humiliate or denigrate another poster. Maybe you missed the rules when you arrived.

            Sent from my iPod

          • xy11xy says:

            I am warning you to stop. Enough is enough.

            You are attacking good people and I will not tolerate it.

            Stop now or you are gone.

            I have attacked no one; therefore, no warning necessary.

            I am gone.

          • Buh-bye troll.

            I do not believe that person was the real xy11xy because the website that the impostor used does not exist and the IP address is a public library in Canada.

          • Xena says:

            @Professor. xy11xy is not a troll. She posted some of her observations, introduced a theory and acknowledged problems with her theory. For that, she was belittled, made to feel that she didn’t belong because of one person using the plural “we,” and when she defended herself, was falsely accused.

            She was called a “moron” and other names and apparently, is not the type of person to not respond to that. Personally, I am sorry to hear her say she is leaving.

      • Malisha says:

        I’m a big fan of Piranha Mom. I don’t know what has occurred (did not have access to Internet for 3 days) but if there’s an issue, I just wanted to put in my vote of appreciation for all the wonderful blogging Piranha Mom has done, and order more of it! 😀

      • Malisha says:

        IIRC, the photographer who took that picture was part of a photojournalist team who were given STRICTEST orders that they were not to touch anyone they saw during their journalistic work. The instructions were internationally-agreed-upon and official and you could get yourself kicked out of the place if you broke it and even lose your press cards. Part of the rationale for that rule was logical and protective (both of the journalists and of the population they were reporting on) but of course, humanity being humanity, and the world being an imperfect one, it could not actually work in real terms. The photojournalist who took that picture won a big international prize for having portrayed the desperation of that situation correctly; then, I believe, he committed suicide, always regretful that he did not just ditch his career, violate the inviolate “code,” and pick the child up to carry him the last kilometer to rescue workers. Indeed, the story of that man’s suicide is a mark on our hearts. I could kick myself that I have forgotten his name (will check it when I have time) but I will never forget what happened to him. I’ll report back with his name, hopefully tomorrow (my Internet access is restricted right now by circumstance).

    • SearchingMind says:

      Life is founded on conflict, i.e. conflict of opposites. Without such conflicts, there will be no life. Even making beautiful babies involves conflict of opposite. This is a philosophical thought postulated by ancient Greek philosophers (I have no names off head). I have seen nothing that contradicts that. Racism can be viewed through that periscope. Racism, IMO, is not inherent in any race. Racism is inherent in man. It is a necessary Evil intrinsic in nature to maintain strife and conflict in order for life to continue to exist and function the way its creator has always wanted it to. Racism is as old as man. If Black people were to vanish today, there still will be racism. If White people were to vanish today, the good old racism will still be there. If only White people were to exist today, there still will be racism. The worst kinds of racisms to date have been perpetrated by members of a race against members of the SAME race (think of the wars of extermination in Asia and Europe, etc.). Racism will not be going anywhere anytime soon. It will always be there. I do not think it is correct to talk of racist White people because a possible interpretation thereof is that the individuals involved are racist because they are White (and that is not true). I think a racist person is one who is limited to- and guided by the worst basic human/animal instincts: fear and other personal inadequacies – regardless of his/her race.

      • Judy75201 says:

        I first saw that pic about 15 years ago, and it slew me. It haunted me for years. I never wanted to see it again. It puts me in such a deep, dark place. Horror.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        In a biography of John Adams, 2nd president of the United States, I read that there was a very animated debate during the negotiations that created the U.S. constitution, on whether Scotsmen should be granted the same rights in the new country as Englishmen. I sure rolled my eyes at that.

    • pat deadder says:

      Lady I’m wondering do you have an opinion as to why in the U.S. people are called hyphenated names like African American, Mexican American etc and does it really matter.This is probably a stupid question anyway just thinking out loud.Not that this matters but we whites spend thousands of dollars to get tans.

      • towerflower says:

        Do some “add on” to keep their heritage? An identity to their past? Political correctness run amok? I had a live-in nanny who was originally from the Bahamas but became a US citizen. Her skin color was black but she absolutely hated the hyphenated descriptions. She would say I am an American. She did not like the term African-American saying I never lived in Africa. She wanted to identify herself by her country not the heritage that she never knew. But this is from a woman who spent the majority of her life first in the Bahamas.

      • Xena says:

        Man is tribal by nature. There are Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, German-Americans. etc. It identifies a culture and original nation, followed by the nation of citizenship.

        The problem I find with using African-American is that it is applied to race when the truth is that there are Whites who are born in Africa but who later become American citizens or are born in Africa by American citizens. For instance, I have a White friend who was born in Africa and raised there until she was about the age of 14. Her parents are American missionaries.

        Also, I know a family of missionaries who hail from NC, but all of their children were born in Lithuania which is where they are assigned by the church.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Pat, my opinion of this is the fact of saying for instance, African-American is this, a person being born black in this country should only be listed as an American and not African-American because, this is the country in which they were born and, they know nothing about Africa except for what they read about. they also don’t even know what language their ancestors spoke. this is no where near how Mexicans who were born and raised in Mexico and, when they come here they are labeled as being Mexican-American when they become legal.

        IMO, there is a world of difference between the other races who hyphen their country of origin along with the word American. Indians shouldn’t be listed as Native-Americans either. they are plain and simple Americans. JMHO

      • towerflower says:

        Xena, Remember when Teresa Heinz Kerry caused an uproar when she said she was African-American? Sadly, though, it has become a symbol of color/DNA and not of heritage. If it was simply heritage then no one should be upset when your friend or Mrs. Kerry marks off the box for African-American.

        • Xena says:


          Sadly, though, it has become a symbol of color/DNA and not of heritage. If it was simply heritage then no one should be upset when your friend or Mrs. Kerry marks off the box for African-American.

          So true. Until the 70’s, some states only recognized 3 races on birth certificates; Negro, Caucasian and Oriental. Latinos were Caucasian and I don’t know what Native Americans did to classify their race. Now Orientals are Asian. If a family derives from Egypt, they are not African-American but rather, Asian.

          I was in the hospital in 1979 and a nurse came in, said she was embarrassed but had to ask my race. I told her “human.”

  17. groans says:

    The final procedural chink in the armor of any immunity hearing occurrence will likely be Judge Nelson, herself. And the defense knows (or should know) it already, despite its spinning otherwise.

    As the professor has already explained, the proper mechanism for raising immunity (as established by the Florida Supreme Court in Dennis v. State) is a PRETRIAL motion to dismiss the charges under Fla. Criminal Procedure Rule 3.190(b).

    Additionally, Rule 3.190(c) establishes the time frame for such PRETRIAL motions to dismiss. Generally, a defendant must make these motions at or before arraignment. However, in the court’s discretion (and lots of luck appealing that), the court may permit the defendant to plead and thereafter to file a motion to dismiss at A TIME TO BE SET BY THE COURT. And, except in limited circumstances (such as “fundamental grounds” and other specified exceptions), any grounds NOT raised by a motion to dismiss within this time frame “SHALL BE CONSIDERED WAIVED.”

    Therefore, it is important to refer back to the Amended Scheduling Order that Judge Nelson entered back on October 29, 2012. (The “itty-bitty calendar” schedule, which IMO was the fair but powerful tool she developed – with agreement by the parties – in order to maintain control of this case.)

    Paragraph 1.a. of the 10/29/2012 Amended Scheduling Order unequivocally states: “Any Self-Defense Immunity I Stand Your Ground motion shall be filed and heard on or before April 26, 2013, which is 45 days before trial.”

    In conclusion: IMO, if the defense does not file a motion to dismiss AND hold an immunity hearing on or before 4/26/2013, the defense will have waived its immunity claim (at least for criminal purposes). The reason: The defense did not make a motion to dismiss at or before arraignment, and will not have complied with the court’s discretionary time period.

    And I would be surprised if Judge Nelson extends the period much, if at all, beyond that date, because she tried to set up an efficient judicial process and obtained the consent of the parties. No abuse on her part in that.

    It can’t, won’t, and shouldn’t be “rolled into” the trial. And the judge has already got that covered.

    • Jun says:

      I understand that chink in the armor is an old phrase but it should be taken out of the English language, due to the negative connotation associated (think Jeremy Lin and ESPN)

      Anyways, I can see that rule being in place because defendants could easily try and manipulate and delay their trial by filing it too late

      • Cercando Luce says:

        As a kid, I remember reading that King Saul (in the Bible) died in battle when an arrow pierced a chink in his armor. I remember thinking that the arrow found that tiny spot to fulfill a prediction, that David was destined to become king. The word chink has meant “tiny gap” or “break” in the English language since before the speakers of the language knew of China. The insult came into being more recently.

      • Rachael says:

        That is like saying you think Acanthosis nigricans should be taken out of dermatology and the medical dictionary.

        But I guess it would be okay to get rid of Cheeze Nips and Nips candy and not say nips as a slang for nipple because nips is a derogatory word for a Japanese person – comes from the Japanese word Nippon, meaning Japanese and Japanese people were called nips.

        When my (Japanese) communications teacher told me that, I swore I’d never buy another box of Coffee Nips again and wrote a letter to the company.

      • Jun says:

        You should not use it, bottom line

        The word has an association with a racial slur

        It is the same with how the N word is used in a conversational manner

        Why cause controversy when you could say something that can not be construed as offensive?

      • Jun says:

        Why not use

        Achille’s heel?

        I am not saying he meant it to be racist but the fact is the word “chink” has a negative association with the word

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I know, for one who sees a word that is used as an insult for one’s own family origin, it is uncomfortable to see in its original state. However, I think I have only ever heard the word “chink” used as an insulting reference once, about 20 years ago, by a grouchy man over retirement age. I think using it in its original meaning crowds out the insulting usage. Ethnic insults like “dago,” “kike,” “spade,” “spic,” “wop,” even “nip”– I haven’t heard them since the 60’s-70’s. However, it could be that my own little world doesn’t include them. Until Fogen, I would have thought “coon” had gone the same way.

      • groans says:

        “Nail in the coffin” would have been much better in the context, anyway, but it didn’t come to mind at the time!

        I don’t agree with you on this one, Jun, but I’ll avoid using it out of respect and sensitivity.

        The phrase, as you recognized, is an old idiom referring to a weakness, sort of akin to an “Achilles heel.” All the words were legitimate, meaningful words long before one of them was hijacked by cruel people. But I’ve only used that word (to the extent I ever use it) in its original, true meaning.

        And I never heard of Jeremy Lin or the infamous ESPN headline about him before now. (OK, maybe that mostly means I “need to get out more”….)

        But I strongly object to the conclusion that someone’s racist use of a perfectly good idiom or word means that I’m now supposed to wipe it from my native language vocabulary forever.

        Language must always be understood and interpreted within its context – or at least that’s very often the case with the English language. Context is everything.

      • groans says:

        PS – The “N” word is not comparable, in my view. I don’t know of any legitimate, meaningful use that word has ever had. But maybe that’s just me.

    • SearchingMind says:

      I think we know who are responsible for the current immunity debacle: (a) the Professor, (b) LLMPapa and to a degree Whonoze. Their efforts have forewarned O’Mara that there are some unfed lions lying in wait inside the barricaded and heavily fortified SYG-castle. Neither O’Mara nor GZ would dare approach that castle, ever. There will be no motion for immunity hearing in either in April or June and Judge Nelson will have nothing to rule on, IMO. That just makes me very sad because I have been looking forward to that hearing – where GZ will reveal his butcher-nature to the world.

    • I like your analysis, but there is a problem. In Dennis the Florida Supreme Court held that Rule 3.190(c) does not apply to immunity hearings.

      • paperview says:

        Thank you for your blog Mr. Leatherman. I have been reading it often since I was first directed here last year.

        Could you explain further to us laymen about how 3.190(c) does not apply. I have read the Dennis v Florida case, but still perplexed on exactly what that Rule stipulates. Thanks kindly.

        • Rule 3.190(c) requires the trial court to deny a motion if the material facts are disputed by the opposing parties rather than resolve them and issue a ruling.

          The trial court in Dennis denied the defendant’s motion for immunity on the ground that the material facts were disputed by prosecution and defense and therefore the jury should decide the issue.

          Supreme Court reversed because the immunity statute creates a statutory right to immunity, if the defendant can prove self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence. Instead of passing the matter to the jury because the parties disputed the material facts, the Supreme Court held that the trial court should have conducted an evidentiary hearing to decide whether the defense met its burden.

      • paperview says:

        I’ve reread groan’s post and it makes more sense (I guess I needed more coffee). Never mind that last post Mr. Leatherman. Thank you again.

      • groans says:

        Professor, I disagree that the Dennis court held that Rule 3.190(c) does not apply AT ALL to immunity hearings. It’s narrower than that.

        With respect to Rule 3.190, the court rejected only the notion that (c)(4) standards apply to SYG immunity motions to dismiss.

        That is, a trial court cannot deny a SYG motion just because there are disputed material facts (which ordinarily are for a jury to decide). Rather, for SYG motions to dismiss, the trial court must hold an evidentiary hearing and decide the factual question of the applicability of the statutory immunity..

        It looks clear to me that ALL motions to dismiss are Rule 3.190(b) motions.

        Rule 3.190(c) then addresses the timeliness of Rule 3.190(b) motions. Generally, the motions must be made by arraignment, unless the judge allows them later, and are WAIVED if not timely. However, there are exceptions to the general timeliness rule for:

        > Objections based on “fundamental grounds”
        > Motions to dismiss on the grounds stated in (c)(1), (c)(2), (c)(3), and (c)(4),

        I believe the Dennis court established that SYG immunity motions are not subject to the (c)(4) grounds – specifically, the absence of disputed material facts. The court had no reason to toss aside the rest of the rule for SYG motions to dismiss, and I don’t read the opinion as doing so.

        Hope this makes sense.

      • groans says:

        @ Professor re:

        Rule 3.190(c) requires the trial court to deny a motion if the material facts are disputed by the opposing parties rather than resolve them and issue a ruling.

        Actually, you’re describing Rule 3.190(c)(4), which is a type of pretrial motion to dismiss that is not subject to the general timeliness provisions of Rule 3.190(c).

        Rule 3.190(c) is about the timeliness of pretrial motions to dismuss under Rule 3.190(b).

        BTW, when I wrote previously, I should have said that all PRETRIAL motions are Rule 3.190(b) motions.

        Also, since the Dennis court held that a SYG immunity motion is a Rule 3.190(b) motion, I think that rules out any possibility that it can be raised during or after trial, as some others have said in other blogs and the media.

    • groans says:

      Professor, the weakness that I see in my original comment is that the SYG immunity (motion to dismiss) might be considered an “objection based on fundamental grounds.” (I have no idea what “fundamental grounds” means, and I don’t have the resources to research it adequately.)

      But in that case, the time constraint imposed by Judge Nelson’s 10/29/2012 Amended Scheduling Order apparently would not apply, and the defense could file its motion at any time before trial.

      I wouldn’t bet the house on that strategy if I were the defense, but maybe that’s what they’re thinking about….

  18. Mary Davis says:

    I just don’t see how they can live with all that hate inside them. To say they have issues is an understatement.

    • Malisha says:

      Unfortunately, it is fairly easy to get normal people to do horrible things to others. It is fairly easy to get normal people to adopt, cling to and express hatred for despised groups. Look at the history of any nation, really: Germany hating Jews, Russians and Gypsies; African Arabs hating African Bantu peoples; British people hating everyone; “European” Americans hating Native Americans; on and on and on and on…with or without some historical conflict providing a backdrop, it is easy to engender hatred and fear and they go together. The most hateful people are the scardiest. That is the story of scaredy-cat Fogen. Read it and weep.

  19. Mary Davis says:

    @ SouthernGirl. When you think of it, it’s kind of scary. The people who actually send him money just might be your next door neighbor.

    • Rachael says:

      Mary Davis, I live with that fear all the time. Might be my neighbor, the person in line with me at the grocery store, a person I work with, it scares the daylights out of me.

    • @Mary

      So true. It’s very scary.

    • Jun says:

      I’m not worried. I have dealt with racists, bigots, weirdos, psychopaths, drug dealers, gang members, thieves, liars, etc

      Unfortunately not everyone is a moral and godly person

      I’d say on most cases, a large majority are fairly normal and moral, there is just a percentage of society that is like that and the internet allows them to be anonymous when doing so

  20. Mary Davis says:

    @ Jun. Great post. The way you put it, it really hits home. How can anyone believe otherwise. You make it so plain and clear. It is something seriously wrong when some people actually know GZ to be a liar and how unbelievable his story is, but instead bury their heads in the sand and support him anyway. Unbelievable.

    • All they see is Trayvon Martin’s blackness and they hate him for it. I read one comment from a woman who claimed to have lost a child yet stated she had no sympathy for Sybrina or Tracy. It’s pure hatred for their blackness b/c she doesn’t know anything about Sybrina or Tracy Martin. Unbelievable.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Let’s hope that such comments are being posted by O’Mara’s interns.

      • I read the comment on the CTH. My jaw dropped. How could a person not have sympathy for ANYONE who has lost a child? A few years ago a white woman in my community lost her 18 year old daughter in a car wreck. We speak to each other and may do small talk at times but we weren’t close friends. When I heard she lost a child I called her to give my deepest sympathy. I also baked a cake, picked up a sympathy card with money enclosed in it and took it to her house to offer some comfort. The entire community was hurt. It’s mind blowing to read someone saying they have no sympathy for a person who has lost a child who was murdered. That’s a lot of deep hate.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        You may be right about this, but I sure hope not. I really hope it’s the Z family and O’Mara’s interns, and not some fine upstanding volunteering religious pillar of the community writing those things. Or an elected representative like Patty Mahaney.

        • cielo62 says:

          Cercando Luce- alas it could be anybody writing that hate filled shit. I see that crap in the local paper’s comment section. And not just about this case but ANY case that involves a dead black person. I usually call them out for it, but its disheartening to see it in our “modern” times.

          Sent from my iPod

  21. Honor Trayvon Martin: Build the Movement

  22. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    Everyone should try this

    Pretend that you are straddling someone and lean forward so that your shirt is hanging away from your body. Now, use your finger and push your shirt to your chest, now pinch the shirt and hold it, then sit up. You will see that the spot you are holding is below where you had it on your chest. Gravity would have made the hole on Trayvon’s shirt below the hole in his chest, not above it.

  23. Donna Flores says:

    If your shimming and lying on your back, I understand the gun is tucked into a holster but wouldn’t it cause some kind of injury or at least a bruise on his hip or back.

    • Romaine says:

      one would think at least a bruise from the pressure of another sitting on top of you, more so a fear of the gun accidentally going off since it had no safety.

    • towerflower says:

      His medical reports cites an aggravated SI, but he had a history of lower back problems (he had a special chair for his back that he locked to his desk).

  24. Hello everyone:

    Wanted to let you guys know that Fred’s computer has a mechanical problem, and we will need to see about getting a new part. He will be back online tomorrow. Thank you for your patience, and very sorry for the inconvenience!

  25. Jun says:

    Knox is somewhat correct that you can get straight front to back trajectory, however, the shot would no longer be intermediate range, it would be close or contact range GSW, and there would not have been space to fully extend the arm like the defendant claims

    Here is a list of why the story does not check out, and may not even be heard if the defendant refuses to take the stand

    1) The bleeding shows that the defendant was upright the whole time the two mini cuts occurred and had already healed and dried up by the time EMT arrived. EMT recommended soap and water and he would be fine. The bleeding shows that it happened undisturbed and going toward his chin.

    2) The fact that soap and water with knuckle bandages is supposed to cure skull fractures, that would have resulted from being head bashed into a sidewalk, which are shown to be unavailable. We all know how much West & Omara hack away at “hospital records”. I wonder where Fogenhats’ hospital records from the same night are. Any other medical test he conducted is outside the scope of having a “chain of command” and him seeing his doctor, even though opportunity presented itself for him to cause himself more injury, the doctor never noted anything, and just told him to get it checked out some more, and maybe there’s a broken nose. Since Fogenhats did not get it checked right away, he could have very well given himself more injury afterward. We also note that Fogenhats refused hospital treatment because he did not want to get professional medical experts looking at him.

    3) There’s no dna whatsoever on the hands, sleeves, cuffs, of the victim and his shirt and hoodie. It would be impossible to not have dna transfer from “allegedly repeated striking and attacking the head and face of the defendant” as that is hard contact to skin and blood, which equates dna transfer. There is also no blood splatter whatsoever.

    4) The trajectory with the misalignment of the bulletholes with the GSW, and the contact shot readings of the shirt and hoodie, and the readings if the intermediate range of the GSW. The state will have done physical tests to know the exact distance and they have the pictures and science tests to prove the distance from the GSW. Obviously for the readings, there was a space between the GSW and the clothing, and the muzzle only made contact with the shirts, but not the GSW. My guess is it is 6 inches intermediate range or potentially more. Knox obviously does not want to do the actual science test to conclude it like the state will because he should know he’s full of it. There’s only one way for the defendant to fully extend his arm and line up the bulletholes with the GSW, and have the contact shot readings of the shirts, and the GSW being intermediate range.

    5) Fogenhats’ clothing showed no signs of grass stains or wetness, on the back of his jacket or pants, upon closer inspection in bright light at the police station. Trayvon was found with debris all over him from the ground.

    6) The w18 saw him attack and shoot Trayvon, and simply rise to his feet undisturbed. That would not have been possible if he was underneath Trayvon. This is also supported by testimony from Mary Cutcher and Selma, and also witness 3 who believes it was Fogenhats on top of the victim.

    7) Fogenhats is a former bouncer, also a gang member, who has a history of criminal and violent behavior and bullying and harassing others. He had a physical and mental advantage over the victim, who was a youth. Fogenhats also had a weapon and equipment advantage because he had a car, flashlights, and knowledge of the area. The likelihood of him being bested by a kid with no combat experience and Fogenhats weighing 40 plus more pounds, leaves a lot to be desired in terms of the defendant’s story. The defendant can’t even use anything character against the victim because the victim had no violent history.

    8) Drawing the weapon would have been impossible, while mounted and being beaten senseless, if that actually happened, as the victim would have been straddled on the defendant, and, the legs would block access to the hips, as well as the defendant’s jacket which hangs past the waist. Since the victim would have been straddling the jacket too, and both would be now blocking access to the hips for the firearm, let alone the forensics that dispute the story anyways.

    • SearchingMind says:

      @ JUN

      “Knox is somewhat correct that you can get straight front to back trajectory …”


      Determining a bullet’s trajectory only requires identifying ‘A:’ the entrance point and ‘B’: the exit point (or, if the bullet did not exit the body, the resting point of that bullet in the body). Two connected bullet wounds (i.e. points A’ and ‘B’) in a body make a line (‘AB’) known as a trajectory. The same straight line (‘AB’) is then extended backward to point ‘C’: the position of the shooter/the gun barrel. If there is no straight line b/w ‘AB’ and ‘C’, then the shooter has some explaining to do. In Trayvon’s autopsy report, ‘AB’ is straight with NO angles. Connecting ‘AB’ to ‘C’ (i.e. where Zimmerman claimed his arm, elbow and by necessity the barrel of his gun were optioned) in a straight line and without angles – is not possible. Thus, line ‘ABC’ accuses Zimmerman of murder.

      Given that all THREE points (‘A’, ‘B’ and ‘C’) have to be connected in a straight line WITH NO angle, or we have no trajectory, I wonder what you mean by “Knox is somewhat correct that you can get straight front to back trajectory …”.

      • Jun says:

        I explained it

        You can do straight trajectory but it would no longer be a intermediate range shot and the gun would have to be held in an awkward manner that is unlikely to occur in the midst of a combat situation

        As I said, it can be done, but it would be a contact or close range GSW, not intermediate range

        Fogenhats would have to hold the gun right in front of his nose or neck, where the gun butt would be touching the nose or neck, to get the contact or close range, straight trajectory shot off, but more likely a contact shot GSW as that is all the space will give

        It can be done but the gun would be held in a weird awkward manner, and the gun would have to be touching Fogenhats’ neck or nose while the shot is fired, and it would be a contact shot likely

        However, this does not match the evidence so the scenario is moot in theory because those were not the readings but I am just saying you can, but it does not match the scenario or forensics of the case

      • Jun says:

        Basically I am saying you can have a straight front to back trajectory, but it would not match the evidence in this case

  26. Hat tip Dothprotesttoomuch

    Star Jones Interviews Trayvon Martin’s mother, Sybrina Fulton

  27. Romaine says:

    ? If Trayvon was reaching for the defendants gun, how and why would Trayvon know which side the defendant carried/ holstered his gun on his body..Maybe Trayvon did feel something on the side and believed it to be his cell phone; therefore never reaching for it.. Why must it be assumed that Trayvons first thought was that the defendant had a gun? My reason for this ? is because Trayvon states to DD that the creepy guy watching him was on the phone; and the defendant eludes to Seriono when ? as to why the victim may have become aggressive the witness whispers maybe he was upset that I called the ploice…I may be wrong

    • Opercarla says:

      Also, fogen claimed that Trayvon said “you’re going to die tonight motherf**ker when he saw the gun. Hmm, somehow I bet that is not going to show up on the enhanced 911 call.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        YEP, just like the “you got me” after the shot that NOBODY heard and no tape captured even though people were straining to hear everything.

  28. ay2z says:

    Now I get the reference to citation misrepresentation by Knoz. Thanks, Prof, I didn’t read SM’s comment.

    Knox does it all, doesn’t he! Is he really, to quote his cv, ‘enrolled’ presently in his post grad studies and who is his advisor? And is this by distance education or by mail? To list a PhD is also misrepresentation, even with the little note on the end to say he’s ‘enrolled’. He hopes it will fool some of the people, enough to impress as an ‘expert’.

  29. kllypyn says:

    Don’t you love that doctored photo. Zmmerpunk had no horizontal cuts on his head. Someone should be charged with tampering with evidence

    • Dennis says:

      I believe it was a neighbor who he asked to photograph the back of his head. I’m not sure of when the police or prosecution obtained the photo but I’m not sure if they could prove who tampered with it.

      On the other hand, the police took the photo of Fogen in the police cruiser. If anyone tampered with that one, it was most likely the scumbag cop who magically forgot he had the photo on his iPhone for over a week. I’m not even sure if that photo will be admissible. Not just because of possible tampering, but because of the fact that it did not get entered into evidence in a proper timing. This severely damages the credibility of that photo, and if the jury is even allowed to see it they will be very critical of it.

      • Rachael says:

        Wasn’t it more like 3 weeks?

      • Dennis says:


        3 weeks would be much worse. When a piece of evidence is collected the night of the shooting but does not get entered into evidence for 3 weeks, that piece of evidence will be under intense scrutiny. I believe the judge will have the final authority on whether to allow that picture into the trial as evidence. Allegations of tampering and broken chain of custody will not help getting that admissible into the trial.

      • looneydoone says:

        The photo image taken by Officer Wagner at 7:31 pm with his personal cell phone was *forgotten about * until 21 March (3+ weeks later). The phone has since been lost

        Curiously, the other “bloody head” photo taken by witness #13 was retrieved the same day.

        This was only after FDLE had taken over the investigation

      • Lost cell phone of the image? That isn’t surprising. I’m willing to be that phone had dozens of images that could be recovered if the phone wasn’t lost. A lost Iphone? Really? Thought they could be tracked.

      • looneydoone says:

        Most curious; Officer Wagner and witness #13 captured the only 2 “bloody head” images using their personal cell phones
        Both uploaded the images into their computers
        Both cleared the images from their phones
        Both forgot they had an image of “bloody head” zimmermann until FDLE had taken over the investigation
        Both images were “found/remembered” on 21 March
        Officer Wagner, in the meantime, lost his cell phone

      • leander22 says:

        Good comment, looneydoone, I didn’t know that Wagner lost his phone. Where would I find that? I thought he said he downloaded it to his officer laptop/PC the same night or the day after. Don’t remember exactly.

        Someone posted an early TV report that showed witness #13 hanging around with four officers. I think it was from the Orlando Sentinel, although I may be wrong. Was one of them Wagner? I don’t think there are dispatch and arrival times for officer Wagner in the 7th discovery around page 10/11 following. Hmm, reminds me I wanted to check that more closely again.

        Strictly they didn’t surface the same day.
        The official narrative on Wagner is that Timothy Smith reminded him of the photo since Serino had none of Fogen’s ” wounds” supposedly on March 18, if I remember correctly Serino writes in his ROI of March 22, about these matters. I think he received it one day before. So there is a time interval between Smith alert and Wagner’s “delivery” to Serino. Strictly this may have been an SPD push-back against Serino’s capias.

        Concerning witness #13, he suddenly remembered his three photos during his interview with FDLE, which I think was on March 20.

        So yes the same time frame and a parallel action inside the SPD and a seemingly well informed neighborhood bystander. The officers seemingly were not much worried about having listening into their debates. At least the images suggested that to me.

        Did you post that link to the above mentioned News report? I do not remember the channel.

        Gone for today

      • gbrbsb says:


        “I thought he said he downloaded it to his officer laptop/PC the same night or the day after. Don’t remember exactly.”

        I remember that but I seem to recall that he first emailed/SMSed it to himself (the one click solution from an iphone albeit it reduces the original high resolution to a mere 840 x 600 JPG). But, if Wagner did email/SMS it to his email and from there downloaded it onto his office laptop the chain of custody would I think probably be fully demonstrable, even if he deleted it from his email, because presumably his computer would be linked to the main backup system as has been the case in all the major sites I have worked and those backups are kept for many years.

      • leander22 says:

        gbrbsb, I just realized there is this too. Now I have to slightly adopt my mistaken assumption that Serino did not know about the photo:

        March 2, Serino interview with witness #11:

        Serino: How’d his face look when you first saw him?

        Witness 11: Well, we only got a picture because the officer that wanted us to identify him wanted us to come over there. And we didn’t want to be a part of that. So, he took a picture and brought it over. And at first we couldn’t even recognize him ’cause it looked like his nose was broken in a few spots, his lip was all bloody, and he just looked completely out of it. But then a lady behind us was like, “Oh, that’s my neighbor.” And I kind of put two and two together. ‘Cause, I mean, we’ve seen him a lot at the HOA meetings. But he just looked so messed up that it was hard to notice.

        Were others taken over there in an attempt to identify TM? Although nothing in the reports.

        • cielo62 says:

          Leander22-and once again the enigma if Serino raises its ugly head. “Beaten so bad” that he was not recognizable? And yet just 2 hours later he’s all back to normal? What game is Serino playing?

          Sent from my iPod

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Witness 11 also sees blows being thrown at GZ on the bottom, obviously this is an outrageous lie, because there’s none of the required evidence that it ever happened and Trayvon’s manner and demeanor precludes violence. But, as Professor has said, it is again unlikely that her story would coincide with the lies that GZ would be telling, unless they had planned these lies together.

          Also note that she attempts to down play her connection with GZ, which reads false as well. Anyone who has been to rather poorly attended HOA meetings, rather quickly gets to know anyone who is there for any important reason, like perhaps to organize neighborhood watch? How could you forget that? Then seeing him on patrol as she admits, so she sees him regularly, enough to know that he’s “passionate” about keeping them safe, eh? But she knows he was on the bottom, getting beaten up by an innocent child, and his nose was broken in several places. My my, what a likely story, I wonder how long it took them to put that together and when?

          This story being similar to George’s story and GZ’s story being untrue, meaning it was not something that anyone could witness, is no coincidence.

      • leander22 says:

        Hmmm? adapt not adopt. Big difference. Didn’t notice.

      • leander22 says:

        cielo62, I still prefer to give Serino the benefit of doubt. I do not expect super-humans. We do not know what made Serino add his diverse ROI’s to the Capias. In any case were there meetings concerning the case after the capias which led to the diverse additions? Was during one on March 18 Smith present but not Wagner, and did Smith suggest there was a photo that proved self-defense?

        Fact is that Serino did not think the scratches did fit Fogen’s narrative and he had the official photos done by the crime scene technician at the SPD.

        In the MOM/West depositions something interesting surfaced. At least a little something, they gave us. Randy Smith, Serino’s boss, present it seems at the reenactment but not the night before, was the only one that did not completely buy Fogen’s tale. Whom could he rely on in this context but Serino himself. Serino leaves SPD only around 3 am in the morning. He is the last to “CL” clear, leave the scene, or the place in this case the SPD. Did the car change with Smith, or whatever it was to have a look at the car in which Fogen was brought to the police station? What could he find there. Would he have left so late, if he had the feeling this was an easy self-defense case?

        There are still far too many questions for me concerning Serino and what I know so far prevents me from jumping to conclusions easily.

        Concerning witness #11, I wouldn’t have remembered this, hadn’t I decided to get a much better grasp of Knox’s argument than I have from a cursorily reading a couple of weeks ago on my travels down south. I never paid closer attention to it, maybe Serino didn’t either?

    • Cercando Luce says:

      13 year-old Austin said he had seen someone on his side who had fallen.

  30. gbrbsb says:

    Not sure if someone here has already posted it but here is the link to a recently released 5 min recording of DD’s interview with Crump courtesy of ABC. It’s as clear as a bell and TL, Diwaiter and CTH are jumping with joy for what they have seen as a double whammy, they believe it proves Crump coached DD and that DD lied! Not my view, but judge for yourselves! http://tinyurl.com/bg3npz7

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Their imaginations work overtime.

    • Rachael says:

      Yeah, but they are still convinced there are 2 or 3 DeeDees. LOL

      • Xena says:


        Yeah, but they are still convinced there are 2 or 3 DeeDees.

        It’s the mindset of Zidiot White Supremacists. They think all Blacks look alike sound alike, and speak slang. Oh — there’s one exception — James Earl Jones when he played Darth Vader because Luke’s father is White.

      • towerflower says:

        The latest one is a “testimoney” DeeDee, a hired actress for money. They even had an urban dictionary word inserted and encouraged others to give it thumbs up to give it creditability.

        They are always telling others to go to a news site to make it appear that fogen has more support and to hide the comments of Martin supporters.

  31. colin black says:

    “Helping good people through difficult times

    Its marketing to your clientel.
    Every scumag an lowlife are not aware of ther .Charecter flaws or lack of charecter period.

    You not going to get many custoomers by calling you firm.

    Losers R US……
    So you stroke there egos after all there all innocent .
    Or else why would they need to hire a defence attorney for trial.
    Guilty cons tend to plead out as they no takeing an obvious guilty verdict.
    To the expence of a trial tends to annoy not only judges but officialdom in genral.

    An once your convicted an just another number an officaldom States Gov ect run the prison system.
    An if your going to perhaps spend the rest of your life/
    In the belly of that beast.
    A good rule of thumb is to not enrage it an it gaurds an inhabitants.
    Before you even step in through its jaws.

    Declareing at hatres for Mexicans wnom by the way pretty much run the jails in California Arizona Florida an allowing that to get out on the M S M.

    Is pretty much the stupidist thing a guy of latino race disses Mexicans an everyone within the penal system will be made aware of what fogen said.
    How he branded them cowards.
    A guy going to jail for shooting an unarmed child brans threm cowartds.
    So not only will he have the Black Prisoners hateing his ass.
    Every Latino prisoner in ther willl be in lock step with the Mexican Mafia whom like I say run a lot of the jails.

    M O M an most defence lawers at times end up with the dregs of society.
    An in order for any justice system to work.
    Those accused of crimes are entitled to a defence.
    Sometimes decent people do get arrested an convicted for crimes they didnt do.

  32. colin black says:

    Re above an that was the cleaned up version for the white folks back in the day.

  33. colin black says:

    even if he shimmied caudally….

    What if he shimmied doolally

    He does realise shimmie shimmie is Blahck slang even older than the term rock an roll.

    Both are descriptions of sexuall intercourse.

    But seeing as he has so many many Million man March many Clagck freind.

    So many infact his white freinds are a tocken.
    Kind of gone reverse south park on our asses.
    Anyway Im sure one of his or weezee juniors many African American freinds would have told him of the true meaning an origin of shimmie.

    Another irony just crept into this case because inadvertantly fogen has told the TRUTH.

    When he states he was shimmieing in the precence of his CHILD VICTIM..
    He was telling the truth because he was most definetly Fucking with Trayvon Benjamin Martin the night he murdered him in cold blood because he had put such fear into a child.
    A Child within sight of his own back door an refuge.
    That this CHILD was screaming for mercy where there was none.

  34. Dennis says:

    I’m quite disturbed by a quote on Mark O’Mara’s website for his law firm.

    “Helping good people through difficult times”

    I can’t even begin to describe how sickening this statement is. It is shocking that he refers to his clients (murderers, white collar criminals, sex offenders, and drug pushers to name a few) as “good people”.

    I guess Fogen is a good person going through difficult times according to this failure of a defense attorney O’Mara. Being punished for a crime you did commit is not “difficult” and you surely aren’t a “good person” if you murder someone.

    • Rachael says:

      I understand what you are saying, but people do have a right to an attorney, and having gone through some stuff in my life, you never know when you are going to need a defense lawyer. Yes, sometimes they do represent really bad people, three-strikes people, but they have a right to representation too.

      Would it really make sense for a defense attorney to say, “Come to me, I represent the slimiest of the slime?”

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Simply a business tactic. No one likes to feel like a criminal, and many people are overcharged and sometimes innocent. But it sure does speak to how casually you can bag someone in casual self-defense since the advent of SYG laws.

  35. whonoze says:

    “The floor is yours, sir.”

    I see what you did there.

    Bwa ha ha ha!

  36. leander22 says:

    Searching Mind reviewed his copy of Spitz and Spitz, The Medicolegal Investigation of Death, which Knox cited as authority in responding to a comment that Lonnie posted at Knox’s site challenging his claim that GZ could have fired the fatal shot while lying on his back with Trayvon in the superior position straddling him.

    Loonie wrote a comment on his blog? Lonnie, dear, be so kind and give me link. This starts to get really funny.

    • gbrbsb says:

      It seems Mr Expert Knox keeps making mistakes in detecting authors and names of his reading material, ancient and modern, as according to SM, the book isn’t called ” Spitz and Spitz” but “Spitz and Fisher”!

      • type1juve says:

        Mr Knox keeps making mistakes because he’s in such a big hurry to make a quick buck off the back of a dead teenager. He doesn’t give a damn about getting to the truth of the matter.

    • leander22 says:

      thanks gbrsb, type1juve, I understand that.

      But I am interested in the special context he mentioned the publication.

      I realized by now, how it could have happened:

      Spitz, W, & Spitz, D. (Eds). Spitz and Fisher’s medicological investigation : of death: Guidlines for the application of pathology to crime investigations (4th ed.). Springfield Ill: Charles C. Thomas, 2006

      The first edition was indeed co-authored by Spitz and Fisher (Russel S. Fisher) in the 70s. The title is obviously kept in the updated editions. It seems to be a standard or the bible in the field. Russel S. Fisher must have been a quite influential pathologist. The first of the new editors in the new edition wrote a tribute to him in the American Journal of Forensic Medical Pathology 9, no 4 (1988), which suggests to me that he died in that year.

      This book made it into his book list, Charles E. Silberman does not. Although he is quoted at length. These are the things I hate since you cannot ever take a look at the context of the citation.

    • texad says:

      Love all your vids-but especially these last 3 re: Why No SYG. I have been tweeting an Aretha Franklin song every day this month in honor of her birthday. I know which song I’ll use today. Besides your many other talents-you have excellent taste in music.

      • Dennis says:

        Simply put, the judge will never believe Fogen’s lies and O’Mara knows it. I’m sure O’Mara is well aware of the 4th District Court’s decision that if the evidence is disputed, you will not be granted immunity and will go to trial. O’Mara’s only chance is to try and confuse six jurors into believing there is reasonable doubt that Fogen committed 2nd degree murder.

        There isn’t much difference between SYG and self-defense. SYG just guarantees you immunity from criminal and civil penalties. O’Mara is already planning for the future. Whether or not Fogen is convicted, this news article basically said O’Mara will be saving the immunity hearing for the future civil lawsuit.

      • Dennis says:


        Are you sure?

        ““By entertaining the option of not having an immunity hearing before trial, George preserves the option of having a civil immunity hearing should he need it in the future,” Vincent said.

        Here is a link to the entire article:

      • Jun says:

        Blackwell cited a statute where thereby the family of the victim are allowed to attack him civilly in court so they would have to honor that fact first

        The state if they wanted to could also go after him for other crimes that are associated with what happened and transpired and so can the feds

        I believe it is one of the main reasons, if their donations are real, that Fogenhats is spending like crazy because he knows he can get the money legally taken away from him

      • ay2z says:

        What happens if the defense uses SYG, that is, tells the jury about SYG and presenting lawyer statements only, and does this after the prosecution has opened?

        Is the point of saying all this in the media, to get the jury pool confused and having the notion that they will be judging/decing SYG in some non-immunity form?

        (NB: Sean Vincent is the new team member apparently, the media spokesperson. Another Irish name, Sean.)

        Vincent said that releasing the court dates doesn’t waive any rights Zimmerman has to have an immunity hearing, and indeed the defense may raise “Stand Your Ground” claims at trial. In addition, Zimmerman could seek immunity from civil claims at a later date.
        “By entertaining the option of not having an immunity hearing before trial, George preserves the option of having a civil immunity hearing should he need it in the future,” Vincent said.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      If Fogen’s head was repeatedly bumped against rough concrete he’d have some speckled bruising / contusion, not small cuts. He got jabbed with Trayvon’s cell phone or he had an encounter with a sprinkler head, a sign, or a tree.

    • Jun says:

      I dont think he will get immunity from Nelson because she understands crime, forensics, and evidence, and has seen numerous liars in her courtroom who fake and stage injury claims for either lawsuits or criminal sanction. Obviously a murder charge is a tough call and a desperate person would stage injuries and claims to try and avoid prison or potentially a death penalty conviction. Perhaps tampering with a jury, as Junior has already, will be their only hope, but anything other than a full vote is a hung jury and they can keep going at Fogenhats. The jury would be doing the people of Florida a disservice if they did not properly do their jobs because they obviously want to have a safe state, and Fogenhats makes it unsafe. I also do not think him rubbing in faces his donations will make him liked by jurors either.

    • ay2z says:

      ‘The Great Pretender’

  37. towerflower says:

    Papa, I just love your videos. Your talent is amazing. Hopefully the State has seen some of these videos and will use your ideas.

  38. Tzar says:

    So some kid going home to watch the second half of the all-star game viciously attacked you from behind an invisible bush, right after giving away his ambush advantage, with no motive whatsoever

    but YOU, you the guy heard on tape cursing him out for no reason whatsoever, you who finds yourself way off the path of your sanctuary shruck, who admitted to following said kid, you had no thing to do with the attack, you are an innocent bystander…

    the absurdity of it all

  39. xy11xy says:

    The second one is particularly devastating.

    George may suggest he slid his hand down his side, past the tiny gap made by Trayvon’s knee, to the gun grip protruding from the back of George’s hip; however, he can’t explain his miming the action. He may say his own legs were flat, not bent yada yada…and he put his legs together and made room…and on and on.

    George will lie to the eleventh hour.

    There is NO way that he can say Trayvon saw the gun; not with how dark it was and with the alleged straddling position. He will say that he THOUGHT Trayvon saw the gun.

    Whether a jury will believe that… There is other evidence that will nullify George’s claim, perhaps: the soil on the hoodie and his pants.

    • racerrodig says:

      Here’s a thought. if Trayvon was reaching for “the gun” how did FogenPhoole get to it…..wouldn’t Trayvon’s hand be in the way??? No DNA problems !! It seems to me that a “hand battle” would have occurred, both reaching into the same small crevice for a pistol and all.

      • PYorck says:

        According to GZ Trayvon slid his right hand between between his thigh and GZ’s body, behind his own back and under GZ’s hip. While Trayvon was in this not at all preposterous position, GZ decided not to use his free dominant hand to clock Trayvon in the unprotected face. Instead he slid his right arm downwards and extended it to pin Trayvon’s arm to his side, laughably unfavorable leverage be damned.

        It can’t have happened any other way.

      • Dennis says:

        I know, right? It sounds completely ridiculous that Fogen claims Martin saw the gun and tried to reach for it, yet there is no DNA or fingerprints of Martin on the weapon or even the holster for that matter. Even if this was true and Martin was unsuccessful at getting the gun, I would still expect DNA or fingerprints to be on the holster or the handle of the pistol.

      • Rachael says:

        He “felt” Trayvon had seen the gun.

      • aussie says:

        According to Osterman’s book, Trayvon “felt” the gun with his leg. Which might be a bit closer to reality, if he was in a close mounted position. But how GZ would know what someone else felt with their leg is unexplained.

    • Dennis says:

      Every additional lie the jury sees through will seal Fogen’s fate.

      *Lied about victim looking suspicious
      *Lied about stopping pursuit of the victim
      *Lied about how altercation started
      *Lied about head slamming
      *Lied about MMA beatdown
      *Lied about victim reaching for his gun
      *Lied about victim straddling him
      *Lied about reason for shooting victim

      the list could go on and on…

      • pat deadder says:

        Lied about Shellie being with him.Twice he almost let it slip in the beginning of the reenactment.I know it has nothing to do with the fight but why did he lie about that.

      • Dennis says:

        @pat deadder

        I definitely understand what you are getting at. Many people researching this case do not believe Fogen was alone. Or at the very least, Fogen was on the phone coordinated the search for Martin with another person such as Taffe or Osterman.

        I believe the prosecution usually tries to save the nail-in-the-coffin evidence for trial. That could be why nobody has seen or heard of Fogen’s cellphone records from that night. Fogen did not want to stay on the phone with the dispatcher while he hunted Trayvon down. It is quite possible he contacted someone after hanging up with the dispatcher.

    • Jun says:

      Everything Fogen has claimed and said is all hearsay anyways

      And it can even explained to the jury why it is hearsay

      so if he cant submit it to be weighed, he gets nothing anyways

      • xy11xy says:

        I don’t understand the concept of “hearsay”…. Explain it to me, please…

        • Simple, it’s an oral or written statement made outside the courtroom by a person (the declarant) that is offered in court to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement.

          Example: GW’s statement that he killed TM is self-defense would be hearsay if offered to prove that he killed TM in self-defense.

          Pursuant to the admission-by-a-part-opponent rule, the prosecution may offer any statement by GZ that might otherwise be hearsay and inadmissible.

          Also, there are many exceptions to the hearsay rule.

          Click on “Hearsay” in the right hand column under the heading “Categories” for articles I have written about the hearsay rule, admissions by a party opponent and exceptions to the hearsay rule.

      • aussie says:

        Everything he told other people (family, Taaffe etc) would be hearsay if they came to give evidence about it.

        Statements a defendant makes to the police are not hearsay. They are very much real and admissible evidence. They may be introduced by the police he made the statements to.

        I believe all his statements will be used by the prosecution, to show how hard he tried to claim self0-deence and how many times he lied — in conjunction with the NEN call and other physical evidence to show none of his stories could be true.

        • Aussie said,

          Statements a defendant makes to the police are not hearsay. They are very much real and admissible evidence. They may be introduced by the police he made the statements to.

          This statement is not correct.

          All of the statements that the defendant made to anyone for any purpose, including the police, are hearsay and inadmissible, if the defendant offers any them at trial to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement.

          However, the state may offer any or all of those statements pursuant to the admission-by-a-party-opponent rule because that rule defines statements by the opposing party as non-hearsay.

          In other words, whether a statement is hearsay also depends on which party is offering the statement.

          Therefore, the defendants statements are inadmissible hearsay, if offered by the defendant, but admissible admissions by a party opponent, if offered by the prosecution.

          There also are many exceptions to the hearsay rule, including statements describing a present sense impression and excited utterances. Trayvon’s statements to Dee Dee are hearsay, if offered by the prosecution to prove the truth of the matter asserted. However, his hearsay statements that constitute excited utterances or descriptions of his present sense impressions are admissible hearsay pursuant to those two exceptions.

          Go here to read articles I have written about the hearsay rule.

    • elcymoo says:

      At one point, GZ did say that he ‘felt like’ Trayvon saw his gun. In other statements, the teenager saw it and reached for it. According to what Osterman says he was told, Trayvon actually grasped the gun, but forensic analysis showed none of TM’s DNA on the gun.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        “Feelings, whoa-whoa-whoa, feelings” (apologies to Barry Manilow) can’t be presented as a reasonable man’s justification for shooting a candy-carrying teenager in the heart. I bet Osterman coached ole Z to say that.

      • xy11xy says:

        Yes indeedy…

        I believe that was right after he said TM saw the gun. GZ modified and said either he “felt” or “thought” TM saw the gun. I think you’re right, it was “felt” George said…

    • Malisha says:

      Also, if Trayvon was smothering his nose and mouth (with two hands, because in thug school he flunked “smothering white guys” two years in a row) AND telling him to STFU, AND keeping his balance over a shimmying victim, he WASN’T looking at Fogen’s chubby little HIPS! He was focused on his face, to see if he was dead yet.

  40. bettykath says:

    I wonder how Trayvon could have seen the gun in the darkness of the night and whatever shadows provided by the defendant’s body.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Especially as (iirc) it was in a holster that was tucked in his trouser waistband at the back!

      • Dennis says:

        Really? I had assumed it was on his right hip. Seems like he tucks his gun in his back waist because he is a wannabe undercover cop. If this is true, that completely seals it for Fogen. If the gun is under his shirt tucked in his backside, there is absolutely no way for Martin to see it if Fogen is on his back.

      • Dave says:

        Probably just behind the belt loop at the side of his jeans. That would be the most comfortable position anyway.

  41. blushedbrown says:

    Love the videos Papa!

    When I started hearing Gloria Gaynor singing her song, I said, “What a great lead into the rest of the video”. Excellent choice of music.

    Thank you!

    • Malisha says:

      What I think was the greatest thing about that brilliant video was the particular shot LLMPapa used of Judge Nelson’s face; she has an expression of absolute incredulity on her face. You can almost HEAR her thinking, “Don’t tell me you’re actually telling me what you’re telling me!”

  42. Bill Taylor says:

    fogens story is that Martin had such total control over him he was able to punch him over 30 times, to slam his head repeatedly onto concrete and tried to smother him using both hands, BUT like a phoenix rising from the ashes he is able to stop Martin from getting his gun, able to control Martin well enough to grab his gun and maintain control well enough to fire a direct shot to the heart from straight one!

    so AFTER being beaten to within an inch of his life being totally unable to defend himself in any way for over a minute he suddenly is able to gain compete control!

    that he had blood in his eyes and couldnt even see yet the picture taken a couple of minutes later shows no one speck of blood in his eyes and even near them…….

    as i said one day ONE when i read fogens account his story is total fabrication, NOT possible, and an insult to any thinking person!

    • Dennis says:

      One of the largest problems for Fogen is he has absolutely no x-rays to back up his claims. The fact alone that he did not go to the hospital shows his story is completely bogus. If I was a juror, I would want to see the medical records from a hospital visit to confirm fractures, concussions, and that sort of thing. Instead, Fogen went to a doctor who told him his nose might be broken. He knew if he went to the hospital, they would say there was barely anything wrong with him. Then all the prosecution would have to do is subpoena his medical records to prove his injuries do not match his story.

      • Dennis says:

        I’m not saying Fogen can think that far ahead, but it is obvious that him choosing to go to a doctor over the hospital is absolute evidence that he did not have anything remotely close to life-threatening injuries.

        Simple assault or a wrestling match does not qualify as a reasonable threat of great bodily harm or murder. I’m losing faith in Florida’s justice system. A man was recently acquitted for murder when he was getting assaulted in front of his child in a public place and pulled out his gun and shot the man multiple times. Multiple witnesses claim he fired more shots at the man when he was already wounded and on the ground. How is that not murder? It is one thing to shoot someone while being assaulted, but to dump your clip into them after they are no longer a threat is clearly murder.

        I seriously don’t think jurors actually deliberate anymore. Instead they sit in the back room huffing paint fumes and thinking about their upcoming vacations.

      • Trained Observer says:

        It was a physician’s assistant, not a doctor, who told him it MIGHT be broken. The medical world is filled with folks willing to admit a nose might be consistent with a breathing instrument. Establishing a break requires a “might.”

        I think one reason Team Fogen has made such a big deal over DeeDee’s medical records is to distract from Fogen’s records, or lack thereof. A.) It’s a distraction. B.) They’re trying to create tit-for-tat justification, except Dee-Dee never murdered anybody.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Dennis, I also think the vast majority of jurors work diligently to come up with just verdicts … from civil litigation over money to murder 1 cases.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Establishing a break requires a “might.”

        Meant more than a “might.” (Oh, for an edit function on this blog.”

      • Dennis says:

        @Trained Observer

        I’ve never had a broken nose, but everything I’ve researched on Google tells me it is pretty painful. This leads me to the conclusion that he did not have a broken nose, thus he did not go to the hospital.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Dennis, I don’t disagree with you at all on that point. I don’t think his nose was broken in the traditional sense at all … at least not by Trayvon on Feb. 26, 2012. Injury by gun recoil? Maybe. Deliberate injury later by one of his pals? Maybe. But he apparently never got any injuries verified by a true medical doctor.

      • My son had a broken nose, and I had to totally discard his shirt.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Dennis, I’d have to agree. Our defense laws are out of control. I prefer the British standard of not being able to use any sort of weapon unless you’re attacked with a weapon. They don’t take guns or anything else to a fistfight and it saves a lot of lives. Life is far too cheap here for my comfort.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        He only went to the doctors so he could work. He never had any intention of seeking medical treatment/care for his “injuries” whatsoever. Can you imagine how much more foolish his supporters were if what little medical papertrail he does have didn’t exist?

        Early on I got the opinion of a friend who does judo and mma. He’s also a somewhat moderate repub. Anyways he said if he had been in GZ’s place he would have gone to the hospital that night no matter what. If for nothing else than a speculation free record of the injuries he had.

        Remember GZ was very quick to tell the cops, but NOT the EMTs abut Trayvon playing basketball with his head. He tries to play it rather meek and unknowledgeable about if he should go to checked out, but at the same time had no problem complaining about the supposed pain he was in.

        GZ never intended for anyone to look closely at this. He thought it would “all blow over.”

      • SpecialladyT says:

        We can’t forget fogen’s exchange with Det. Singleton when he was waiting for the VSA guy to come in and how he cried to her about not having “proper” insurance overage. That to me was a set-up and an excuse for not seeking ER medical attention the night before.

        This leads me to when reading these Zidiot posts, they also make that excuse for him that fogen didn’t have proper insurance coverage.

        You TAKE a LIFE because you are in FEAR of losing your life, yet you don’t fear for your life to seek immediate medical attention because you are in FEAR a medical bill?!!!

      • Trained Observer says:

        SpecialLady, — Would he not have had some sort of coverage via his employer? And if not, how was he getting all these prescription meds he talked about?

      • towerflower says:

        This is from the Altamonte Family Practice site where fogen went. They list their practice areas as Internal Medicine, Gynecology, Sports Medicine, Cyro Surgery, Immigration Physicals, Pediatrics, OMT (Osteopathic Manipulative Treatment), Dermatology, and Geriatrics.

        He claims he went there for a return to work checkup but he never went back to work. While the PA does question him to see if he has any symptoms of a head injury (which he says no to all questions) they are not a full service type of doctor’s office. It does not appear they have X-ray ability. They fall more into a typical family type doctor and not a walk-in clinic. The PA says he needs to be seen by an ENT and he refuses and this is documented. She repeats fogen’s story and he tells her that the paramedics told him his nose was broken and I feel that she just went with the flow and hence the “likely broken”. She does not suggest he seek immediate medical attention for a head injury because she finds no evidence of a head trauma that would require it. She checks for bleeding in the ears and finds none contrary to Jr’s claim that he was bleeding from the ears. I had to research most of the abbreviations in the report but basically he denies having headaches, vision problems, gait problems, numbness, weakness, nausea (except when thinking about the event), and no bleeding in the ears.

        I feel that he didn’t go to the hospital that night because they knew they would draw blood. Blood that might show something he didn’t want to come out. I feel that he didn’t follow up with an ENT, not because of insurance issues, but it was better to have everyone like his nose was broken then to have proof that it wasn’t. Just like he told the cops that he “really needed stitches” when the report states that sutures are not needed due to the well approximated skin edges (meaning the edges touch and the wound is closed). So he hides them behind those huge bandages so no one can see just how small his boo boos are.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Very well put… although it could be he managed to find and eat his can of spinach just in time!

    • Tzar says:

      you forgot the diapers! he was almost in diapers!

  43. lady2soothe says:

    Looking at the two fighters I saw something I’d missed previously *shimmying would have caused GZ’s shirt to go down* NOT “rise up”

    • Tzar says:

      even if he shimmied caudally

    • Tzar says:

      even if he shimmied caudally?

    • gbrbsb says:


      “shimmying would have caused GZ’s shirt to go down* NOT “rise up””

      Just had a similar question with Xena but in the re-enactment GZ clearly explains how his body was on the grass with only his head on the footpath and that he shimmied to get his head off the path onto the grass. In my understanding that can only mean he shimmied downwards because shimmying upwards would have ended with both his head and arse on the path! That said, if he shimmied downwards his jacket can only rise up.

      [fixed it for ya]

      • gbrbsb says:

        sorry forgot the end of the blockquote… 2nd para is my reply

      • gbrbsb says:

        Thank you kind sir… for the fix of course!

      • LLMPapa says:

        Just for chits and giggles, go up to vid #2, around the 15 sec mark, and listen to George say that “straddled on me with his FULL weight” part again.

        Guess O’Mara is saying 158 lbs was enough to lock our killer in place, but not the super duper High Country lightweight jacket the FULL weight was straddled on.

        Odd that…..

      • lady2soothe says:

        @ gbrbsb…. Good point.

        GZ clearly explains how his body was on the grass with only his head on the footpath and that he shimmied to get his head off the path onto the grass. In my understanding that can only mean he shimmied downwards because shimmying upwards would have ended with both his head and arse on the path! That said, if he shimmied downwards his jacket can only rise up.

        Okay that makes sense. Shimmying down would have hid the gun even further from Trayvon’s eyesight. Trayvon’s family jewels would have been sitting virtually on GZ’s face at some point meaning; how would GZ be able to see if Trayvon saw his *exposed firearm.*

        “So I kind of shifted and squirmed my way out, not out from under him but like to where, cus the concrete was only, it was a sidewalk and it felt like he only had my head on maybe a quarter of the concrete and I could shift my head down onto the grass where he was slamming my head where it would him the grass instead of the concrete. When I shifted my jacket came up and my shirt came up and exposed my firearm. And that’s when he said, he sat up and look and he said “you’re going to die tonight mother fucker” (32:50 min. mark) And I felt him take one hand off my mouth and slide it down my chest and I just pinched his arm and I grabbed my gun and aimed it at him, fired one shot.”

        So IMHO in order for GZ to grab the gun from under and behind his back and place it between himself and Trayvon he would have either:
        a) bent his elbow, maneuver his hand/arm up, around and between Trayvon’s hip/waist, the inside of Trayvon’s forearm, and angle his wrist (quadruple jointed) with the butt of the gun essentially on his own forehead.

        b) slid his hand/arm under the bend of Trayvon’s knee, therefore pushing Trayvon’s knee outward (and tipping Trayvon over) creating an open space to angle his wrist (double jointed) and place the butt of the gun, again essentially on his own forehead.

        And I realized, um, my, my shirt came up and I felt him slide his hand toward my right side. blockquote>

        c) which would have meant Trayvon would have had to reach behind himself to slide his hand toward GZ’s right side

        And then there’s those pesky little things called forensics, trajectory, mathematics’ and ballistics’.

        How could GZ have reached underneath himself, behind his back while lying on the ground? How could GZ have grabbed the gun when the pistol grip was facing outward? He would have had to twist his wrist almost all the way around (displacing Trayvon’s knee) GZ used his right hand so the barrel would have had to be whipped around or the gun would have been pointed at himself. Totally impossible based on GZ’s claim that Trayvon was sitting on his upper chest…… Everything GZ’s claims can be dis-proven by forensics.

        I imagine the prosecution will most likely use Multidetector computed tomography (MDCT) based calculations of wound paths and angles of trajectory which allows the ballistic expert(s) to analyze the trajectory in determining where GZ *REALLY* was and prove the *angle* of GZ’s hand in relation to Trayvon’s chest when he pulled the trigger to cause “the wound track passes directly from front to back” which means GZ shot Trayvon straight on and not at a prone angle as he claims.

        Doesn’t work any which way you look at it from GZ’s point of view.

        • Xena says:

          So, Trent Sawyer’s demonstration is right on target.

          Don’t know if I posted this previously or not. If so, please forgive me for the duplication.

        • gbrbsb says:


          “Okay that makes sense. Shimmying down would have hid the gun even further from Trayvon’s eyesight. Trayvon’s family jewels would have been sitting virtually on GZ’s face at some point meaning; how would GZ be able to see if Trayvon saw his *exposed firearm.*”

          Exactly, so how could the gun have even been exposed. And with his head level or under the “family jewels” you’d think he would have at least tried a head butt or somepin. And worse, once shimmied down what part of GZ’s body was Trayvon bashing against the concrete or trying to smother? It can never add up however many times he tries to adapt his stories simply because it never happened the way he said.

      • Malisha says:

        OK lookahere, as someone who used to teach belly dance, let me just clue you in here. This is what woulda happened if Fogen had shimmied while Trayvon was beating him to death:

        Trayvon: “Shut the fuck up” [as quoted by Fogen to Erwin]
        Fogen: (shimmy shimmy)
        Trayvon: Huh? WTF? Whatjoo think you’re doin’ homie, you for real? STOP THAT you’re killin’ me I’m about to laugh my ass off and without a ass, I can’t do shit! Man stop that shit HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHA [falls over laughing uncontrollably]…
        Fogen: Gotcha! [Stands up and gets his gun out just in time for Tim Smith to arrive and arrest Trayvon Martin for laughing in public in a racist manner]

    • lady2soothe says:

      Whoops, accidently deleted the last blockquote after c)

    • lady2soothe says:

      @ Xena

      I was one of Trents original followers before he switched from FB…I remember the day he posted this video. I’d forgotten all about it. I also remember some nasty vile person saying horrible things about him and there was a huge argument…. Anyway I obviously digress.

      Guess at my age sometimes I don’t see things as clearly as I should till they’re pointed out to me. I think of shimmying as going up, daaaaa, (old dancing dies hard) makes sense GZ would be moving down. I posted again lower on the page a runningly long, probably boring post.

      Anyway, thanks for sharing with me, it really is much appreciated.

  44. rayvenwolf says:

    love LOVE the second vid. I cannot wait for that to come up at the trial. It may be the only way to Z nation FINALLY acknowledge that his story is bunk. Then again probably not. I am actually surprised that no one has done a vid with two people actually breaking that part of things down, or maybe I just haven’t found it.

    Still the defense is going to have one hell of a time showing how not only was it possible for Trayvon to see a gun from that position when GZ had moved his body DOWNWARD, let alone for GZ to effectively get that gun without dislodging Trayvon from that position or Trayvon who supposedly was so effective in keeping GZ from freeing himself and leaving, was unable to stop GZ from getting the gun.

    • Xena says:

      Trent Sawyer has a demonstration video on his stateoftheinternet Youtube channel.

      My theory? If you’re able to shimmy, you’re not pinned. Pinned is not being able to physically move your body, maybe only having your arms free to defend yourself. Also, how does anyone continue punching or bashing a head that is moving?

      • Tzar says:

        but shimmying can be so fun

      • gbrbsb says:

        Yep, as GZ was shimmying DOWNWARDS that puts him travelling to underneath Trayvon’s legs and pelvis so what exactly was Trayvon smashing into the concrete and then trying to suffocate… the grass! Further, if GZ couldn’t use his arms to defend himself for some strange reason, surely he could have given a headbutt, (or a bite), in the place we all know it hurts big time and disables pretty swiftly!

        • Xena says:

          @gbrbsb. Funny that at his re-enactment, neither the interviews, no representative of the SPD asked GZ if he shimmied up or down to get his head off the sidewalk.

          • gbrbsb says:

            Right, but if his jacket rode “UP” then there ain’t no other direction that would work!

          • Xena says:


            Right, but if his jacket rode “UP” then there ain’t no other direction that would work!

            Up is up, that is true. My focus is more on where Trayvon’s body would be after GZ shimmied. GZ’s demonstration conveys that his body was free from the waist up, which would mean that he shimmied upwards. In such case, Trayvon would need to lie flat on GZ to reach to his face to smother him.

          • gbrbsb says:

            Xena, I am not understanding you. GZ could absolutely NOT have shimmied upwards because in that case his jacket could not rise up to expose his gun. In the re-enactment he explains very clearly his head was on the footpath while his body was on the grass and that he shimmied to get his head off the concrete onto the grass. That gives only one direction, he shimmied down under Trayvon to get his head on the grass. I don`t know what demo you are referring to but according to the re-enactment perfectly he shimmied down under and to expose his gun that is the only way I can see it could be as shimmying up would have pulled his jacket down over his waist and not the inverse.

          • Xena says:


            Xena, I am not understanding you.

            Maybe it isn’t clear because my focus is that the SPD did not ask GZ which way he shimmied. I mean, we can use the most logical, such as you have, but it’s impossible for Trayvon to have seen GZ’s gun regardless of which way GZ shimmied. The most logical conclusion therefore, is that GZ did not have to, neither moved his head off concrete to grass. That’s another lie he told.

          • gbrbsb says:

            Yes, on that we are fully agreed… it just didn’t happen whichever way! If you ever watch the re-enactment again (iirc) it’s actually quite telling how he explains about his head only being on the concrete… I seem to recall the detailed explanation was prompted by something Serino said that GZ corrected to say that only his head was on the concrete.

          • gbrbsb says:

            Xena, EXTRA EXTRA
            I posted downthread the link to ABC’s recent release of a clear recording lasting 5 mins of Crumps interview with DD as I only realised today that it nobody posted it here yet. Nobody seems to have seen my link while Diwaiter’s already got a post analysing it and TalkLeft haven’t stopped either. As you have more connections maybe you can spread the word quicker or we will be lagging behind!

          • Xena says:


            As you have more connections maybe you can spread the word quicker or we will be lagging behind!

            What word would you like for me to spread?

            When it comes to attorney Crump’s interview of DeeDee, I haven’t taken much interest. The reason is because BDLR interviewed DeeDee. Crump’s interview is not admissible at trial because the State conducted its own interview.

            The other reason I’ve stayed informed, but not really involved in the perjury conspiracy, is because since DeeDee’s personal life is not on trial, whatever she said or didn’t say does not prove that GZ killed Trayvon in self-defense.

            Reason 3 — the Zidiots are ignorant. Even if Crump coached DeeDee in some manner, T-Mobile did not make-up Trayvon’s phone records with DeeDee’s phone number calling him at times that were made-up before Crump knew that DeeDee exists.

            Reason 4 — I’m getting a kick seeing West and O’Mara kick against the bricks wasting time, energy, resources and money running after Zidiot conspiracy theories. The more that Zidiots pursue and promote them, the less prepared the Feign Team is going to be at trial to defend GZ.

            GZ can sit in prison for 10 years filing appeals on the basis of ineffective assistance of counsel, only to result in a new trial to be convicted again.

          • gbrbsb says:

            Whoa Xena… I wasn’t expecting anything of you except to post the link as I just thought our bloggers might like to listen to the good recording and observe the goings on in TL, Diwaiter, etc. both for a laugh and to keep up to date with their ravings. I don’t have the following you have and nobody seemed to notice the link I put because a clear recording is interesting… I thought.

          • Xena says:

            @gbrbsb. So, you think I have a following? LOL!!

            No problem. You can write something for my blog as a guess writer and we can embed the video, or give me a few days and I’ll try writing a post about it.

          • Xena says:

            @gbrbsb. I’ve saved the audio so if there is anything you want me to notice or focus on, let me know.

      • LLMPapa says:

        gbrbsb says:
        March 9, 2013 at 10:18 pm

        Xena, EXTRA EXTRA
        I posted downthread the link to ABC’s recent release of a clear recording lasting 5 mins of Crumps interview with DD

        Interesting around the 2:10 mark.

      • Erica says:

        Well I guess if he shimmyed, he really is a child molester because trayvons “mid section” would have been right at zimmerman’s mouth!

      • gbrbsb says:

        He sure would have been where you say, as I said before if he couldn’t use his hands to defend himself he had a couple of other opportunities right there… just shows what a liar he is!

      • gbrbsb says:


        “Interesting around the 2:10 mark.”

        Good spotting if as I think you are referring to her reference to the Plaza, or “another apartment”. Are you thinking, as I am now, that GZ might have been watching and following Trayvon from even before he entered RATL? Or more likely GZ followed Trayvon out of RATL to 7/11 and back again? That really would be big! Wonder if ABC have more recording.

      • Xena….If Trayvon had been straddling fogen, wouldn’t the knees of Trayvon’s pants have been wet and/or muddy from the wet grass?..and even from the knees down to the ankles of his pants? If fogen had been on the cement on his back and shimmied, wouldn’t his leather jacket have been scratched or marked from the rough cement? BTW…if fogen could shimmy his body, why wasn’t he doing anything with his arms to defend himself against the skinny kid?

        • Xena says:

          @grey winter sky.

          BTW…if fogen could shimmy his body, why wasn’t he doing anything with his arms to defend himself against the skinny kid?

          Short answer to all your question is, because GZ lied. Nothing happened the way he describes. He gave that lie about spreading out Trayvon’s arms after he shot him in effort to mask any of his DNA on Trayvon’s sleeves, and also the debris on the toes of his boots. Still, GZ’s lies won’t help him because of the debris finding on Trayvon’s clothes, socks and shoes.

      • Xena….One other thing, had Trayvon been punching fogen swinging his arms to hit him, it would have caused his body to twist a bit…..causing his knees to dig into the ground even more. The grass/mud would have been embedded into the material of his pants by his knees. Did Trayvon have muddy knees?

        • Xena says:

          No debris finding for either of their pants has been released to the public. Let’s face it — after the first several document dumps of discovery, anything that is not beneficial to GZ, O’Mara has sealed.

      • towerflower says:

        Xena said “after the first several document dumps of discovery, anything that is not beneficial to GZ, O’Mara has sealed.”

        Exactly and the State has supported it to ensure the defendant’s right to a fair trial. Phone records, texts, emails, journals, etc. You know that it has to be bad for both sides wanting things sealed.

        • Xena says:


          Exactly and the State has supported it to ensure the defendant’s right to a fair trial. Phone records, texts, emails, journals, etc. You know that it has to be bad for both sides wanting things sealed.

          BINGO! Additionally, O’Mara has spent time forgetting that he is defending GZ in a criminal case filed by the State, by wanting to know what the FBI has on GZ. That gives reason to believe that discovery that has been sealed of GZ’s phone records, texts, etc., has O’Mara very, very nervous that it substantiates federal hate-crime charges against GZ.

    • Jun says:

      The Zidiots are not reasonable people

      I could show them a video footage with 100 witnesses verifying the footage and they would still deny it and say it is some huge controversy when the issue is just about average American folks, and the defendant targeting, stalking, chasing, terrorizing, and eventually killing a teenage kid within a span of about 8 minutes

      They can not even accept the scientific fact of transfer which is based on old science of the term redhanded because when you commit murder you literally have blood on your hands

      They can not accept the fact that Trayvon has no dna from Fogen on his hands, sleeves or cuffs so literally, Trayvon’s hands are clean and it is not possible to make that much contact with so much Fogen DNA without getting any transfer whatsoever

      They can’t even accept gravity

      • towerflower says:

        Jun, How right you are, they are still convinced that Trayvon was 6’3″ tall even though the autopsy report states otherwise. They refuse to believe any scientific facts because fogen always tells the truth and never lies.

    • Malisha says:

      Z Nation will not have to acknowledge that the story is bunk.
      They will never acknowledge that the story is bunk.
      Their reliance upon, and attachment to, false stories forms the basis of their belief system. It does not require logic or any relationship to physical reality.

      • cielo62 says:

        Malisha- and the wonderous thing about this faith is that it will carry them throughout the entire trial, remain intact in the face of irrefutable evidence and sustain them even when the guilty verdict is read. It will inform their outrage of an “injustice” done to a “fine, upstanding American.” It will galvanize their fury against “them” ( we know who we are). Like you said, there is no room for reason or reality. ‘Sigh’

        Sent from my iPod

  45. fauxmccoy says:

    may all the gods and goddesses bless you LLMPapa! video of nelson with ‘the floor is yours’ is priceless!

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: