Wednesday, March 6, 2013
Exciting day yesterday with the defense decision to forego an immunity hearing. That was huge after all of the right-wing assurances that Judge Nelson was going to grant the defendant immunity from criminal prosecution and civil suits for damages.
I would be a rich man if I had a dollar for every claim that the prosecution lacked probable cause to charge the defendant with a crime and its case would never survive an immunity hearing.
One elderly Harvard law professor, who shall remain nameless out of respect for the lawyer he used to be, went so far as to accuse State’s Attorney Angela Corrie of being unethical for charging the defendant with murder 2.
Another lawyer who also shall remain nameless has been tweeting me for months telling me that this is the strongest self-defense he has ever seen and there is absolutely no way this case will survive an immunity hearing and go to trial. He expressed all sorts of creative and disparaging insults, some personal and some not, and mocked me for predicting that the defendant would be convicted.
I have been mocked, doxed, defamed, insulted, accused of being up on felony charges, faking my credentials and having sex with animals for calling it what it is; namely, an indefensible murder case. I have been doing that since I first read about it before charges were filed and we saw any discovery.
I still do not understand why what is so obvious to me is not equally obvious to everyone else, particularly to criminal defense lawyers who should know better.
Now, it should be obvious to everyone that the defense has no case. If the defendant had a legitimate claim of self-defense, the immunity hearing would have happened long ago and the defendant would be a free man.
The uncomplicated reality is that the armed defendant followed, confronted, attempted to detain, shot and killed an unarmed teenager who was walking home minding his own business while talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone.
By calling off the immunity hearing, the defense is finally admitting what should have been obvious to everyone for months.
I figured out months ago that this would happen so I was not surprised by the defense announcement yesterday.
The real eye-opener for me has been watching the media’s ongoing shameless effort since the hearing to downplay the significance of that decision while attempting to build up the significance of the prosecution’s admission that there are no hospital records that DD (AKA Witness 8) was in a hospital during Trayvon Martin’s wake or funeral.
At the press conference following the hearing, for example, one female reporter aggressively pressed the prosecutor, Bernie de la Rionda, to explain why he had not charged DD with perjury.
Now, I have heard a lot of stupid questions asked over the years, and even asked more than a few myself, but this one is quite possibly the dumbest one yet.
As I pointed out yesterday, there is no evidence that DD lied or committed perjury.
But even if she lied, and I am not conceding that she did, given the nature of the ambiguous questions she was asked, she certainly did not lie about a relevant or material matter regarding the homicide. Therefore, a perjury charge is not even a possibility.
Moreover, her alleged lie would not be admissible at the trial. The jury will not hear about it and the defense will not be permitted to mention it.
All of the media hullabaloo to create a false equivalency between DD’s alleged lie about going to a hospital instead of the wake or funeral and Shellie Zimmerman’s perjury charge for lying about her husband’s assets while under oath at a bail hearing is “baffling,” as Bernie de la Rionda snarked about the news that the defense was giving up on having an immunity hearing.
The only news organization to accurately report what happened at yesterday’s hearing was The Guardian in the UK.
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Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
update
@Uni
Please see me at the living room please.
the other living room, excuse me
It’s always amazing to me when someone who clearly has done WRONG then sets himself up as the judge of what everybody else has done, and interrogates people and spreads rumors and calls people racists and liars and thugs and insists that every objection to his bad behavior is an unwarranted and outrageous attack upon a perfect person. Sorry, but these folks are the ones who make me think that maybe murder is not an obvious negative; maybe a sort of “social cleansing” would benefit our world in the long-run. But then I come to my senses and realize that the time for that was many millennia ago when the first of the big-liars killed the first of the innocent victims and then gave his lying disgraceful hateful cowardly explanation. Had the smartest woman in the community bonked him hard on the head that day, we would never have had to put up with crooked-tongued, cowardly, obnoxious, murderous, dumb, offensive, hyper-religious, hypocritical Fogen in 2012 when we are all so appalled at what this world has come to.
Benjamin “Justice 4 Trayvon” Crump
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Benjamin-Justice-4-Trayvon-Crump/327501447335425
The defense wanted to invade her privacy and get her medical records. They tried to do this by accusing her of lying about going to a hospital or somewhere to get medical attention (listen closely, that is what was said in the Bernie Interview). All she stated was “um yeah, I had high blood pressure”. The argument ended up being really pointless and has no effect on the murder 2 trial therefore it was dismissed as moot. They tried to compromise and also not infringe on w8′s rights but the defense just kept arguing and arguing and accusing her of lying that they just dismissed it as moot without prejudice because the argument is pointless.
I think Mr. Crump is the one who said it – but he was not under oath, nor was she. Anyway I think this has all of it together:
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/10/23/195459/60
Thank you! Jeralyn gives me a headache. And this goes back from long ago. Just saying…
Good to see that Attorney Crump is speaking out. I know a little about his history and he ain’t never scared. People seem to forget that without HIS investigations there would have been no charges filed against the killer of Trayvon Martin.
I have a granddaughter in the hospital TODAY and the only way I can get information from her Dr. is if she asks the questions I want answers to WHILE I AM IN THE ROOM. Hospital staff can be sued if there is a HIPPA violation. I believe Witness 8 did go to the hospital or other medical facility, but it is her business. It is her decision to reveal it, and if she chooses not to I’m good with that.
I also think those who support justice for Trayvon also need to support those witnesses who are prepared to speak up and tell the truth in court. I would love to see as many men as possible (of all colors- but especially Black men) pack the courthouse and the courthouse square with their presence in a show of solidarity. Brothers, save those vacations for June.
***Excuse the caps.***
I too believe she went to the hospital. When my husband had a biopsy done no one would give me any information about the results without his consent. Zero, Zilch, Nada!
Glade to hear that your surgery was minor. Hope all will be well soon, obey your Dr. and take good care of yourself.
I also noticed that the media is purposely ignoring the hearing. I haven’t been able to fine one single article inwhich the focus wasn’t DD’s alleged lie. The waiver of the Immunity hearing is only mentioned in passing.
MOM and West are charactors to say the least. There must be an avaliable commentator position open at Faux News.
Thank you so much, Looolooo! I’m feeling better and so glad it’s over.
Rene Stutzman’s article was titled about the immunity hearing but the article was about DeeDee. I see CNN has taken it a bit further with their article. “The state’s chief witness in the Trayvon Martin murder case lied under oath, prosecutors”
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/06/us/florida-trayvon-martin-case/index.html
@SG2
Hey girl,
Hope you are on the mend and all is going well. 🙂
Please take it easy, for the next few days.
TTYsoooon
TY, Blushed. I’m doing better. I have to take medication for a week and then I should be ok.
@SG2
Good. Great to hear. But please take extra care when moving about.
Didn’t know you had surgery, but wishing you a speedy recovery.
Thank you for thinking of me.Glad it’s over.
Hey kids!
Just getting back here. I had minor surgery this afternoon and I came home and fell asleep after taking pain medication.
I was just coming to post this comment and noticed the Professor’s new thread about the Media and Dee. Talk about perfect timing! I didn’t write this comment …someone on the blog POU wrote it. It’s right on with the Professor’s post.
What the press is doing is chasing something they think will be fun to catch, to divert attention from the fact that a year ago, in early March, a very big lie was exposed (“We have no evidence to disprove his claim of self-defense”) that they still have not had the courage to deal with.
BIG LIE: That RTL was rife with crime (I suspected this, then I discovered this, and I reported this to Frances Robles who held herself out to be an honest journalist, and she ignored it, along with all the other journalists) when Fogen selflessly decided to fight crime by forming and leading the NW group.
BIG LIE: That Fogen solved a lot of crimes.
BIG LIE: That the police did not have probable cause to arrest Fogen.
BIG LIE: That Serino thought it would be best to charge Fogen with accidental homicide.
BIG LIE: That Fogen’s nose was broken.
BIG LIE: That Fogen was terribly injured but chose not to go to the hospital because of money considerations.
BIG LIE: That Tracy Martin said the screams on the 911 tape were not his son’s.
BIG LIE: That Trayvon Martin was on top of FOgen delivering MMA-style punches and witnesses confirmed that.
BIG LIE: That Trayvon Martin was a thug.
BIG LIE: That America’s Black population was threatening to murder Fogen, causing him to need extraordinary security measures.
BIG LIE: That there was a conspiracy to frame poor Fogen.
BIG LIE: That the FDLE charges against Fogen were simply a political move to prevent an angry Black mob from rioting and destroying the American way.
BIG LIE: That DeeDee lied.
______________________
The media has purposely diverted the attention away from O’Mara waiving an immunity hearing and making it about DeeDee. We will NOT be distracted by the shiny object. I see them.
Wasn’t it Malisha who wrote that list of “BIG LIEs”?
We’ve had so many new pages created here recently, that I can’t remember which page Malisha (or whoever) posted it on here. Sorry….
I wrote a list of big lies somewhere but I don’t know where; do you need me to find it?
Please do.. 😀
Yes, it was Malisha. Someone had posted it on the blog POU too. Good comments like that gets passed around everywhere.
New Post Up:
Combining the immunity hearing with the trial in the Zimmerman case is a terrible idea
Professor, you said that DD’s words (medical issues) can not and will not be brought up at trial, they are inadmissible. If the defense can question that part of her testimony in her depo, why can’t the defense use that portion at trial.
I am gonna try to answer just because
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/material
It is not material
and
The defense can not confirm nor deny her story as well as the answers being ambiguous, the defense’s information is from hearsay, and they were even offered to deposition the witness to get the information straight from the source rather than elsewhere, as they are refusing to deposition her, so they would have problems proving it was a past conduct of untruthfulness
The defense could get clarification on the issue but instead choose to twist what the state stated, which is that there will be no medical records to obtain, and that they should deposition her and then ask for the records at another deposition
The issue was also deemed moot and dismissed without prejudice
It also does not necessarily mean her testimony in regards to Trayvon is false because she was on the phone with him during this incident
Let us see if I am correct =)
Jun, thank you, but you are confusing me even more. lol The defense WILL depose her, so my question is still not answered. 😀
Okay one at a time
The link I have you
It is about what is material to the suit at hand
Deedee going to the hospital or somewhere, and having high blood pressure, has no bearing or relevancy to the issues at hand
Whether she went or not has no effect on the suit, which is murder 2, therefore it is considered moot or irrelevant or so minor it is not worth even debating over in regards to the murder 2 trial
In regards to the actual debate, the defense can not confirm nor deny she went to the hospital or somewhere, therefore, their claims that she is not credible because of past untruthfulness will fall flat on it’s face because you can’t claim someone is untruthful with no proof of the individual being untruthful, so they can not even use it to impeach her
The state can object to the relevancy and the material worth of the inquiry at trial
Lastly, the state and the judge asked the defense to depose her and ask her in regards to their inquiry for the records and then they can have a hearing on the matter by listening to what the witness has to say in regards to the records, but as of yet, there will be no medical records of hers to obtain
So in simple terms, it is irrelevant, a moot issue, a minor issue, and can not be proven or disproven and has no effect on the trial
Because the rules of evidence that apply in trial do not apply to depositions, questions asked in depositions can and often are broader in scope.
So how can this broader in scope material be used at trial?
Depositions are a method or procedure to acquire information about a case from a witness under oath. In other words, it’s a discovery device.
It’s designed to be used to discover relevant and admissible evidence that can be introduced at trial. The scope of permissible questioning is quite broad.
The rule is that a lawyer can ask any question that she reasonably believes might lead to the discovery of relevant admissible evidence, even if the answer to the specific question asked would not be relevant or admissible.
Irrelevant and otherwise inadmissible evidence such as hearsay, prior bad acts of a witness or the defendant, character evidence, prior convictions, etc., are generally discoverable but not admissible at trial.
Just to be clear, BDLR will not bring up illness/hospital on direct, therefore, the defense has to stay within the scope of questioning on their cross.
Am I correct?
I mentioned this on another post, but she had good reason to lie if she did. That young girl face would have been plastered on every tv screen in American. It would have been a matter of time before the media found out exactly who she was had she said she was at his funeral or wake. My question is this, was she on the DAMN phone when GZ was following Trayvon? That’s a yes, that’s all I need to know, because I have never heard of a person lying in wait while talking on the phone. Sorry for my choice of word.
Agree.
Me too Tee, I said the same thing.. IDGAF what nobody say “DD was well within her right to lie” if she did… I know my resons for why she “may” have lied may have seemed a little far fetched, but if I was in her shoes, I would have done everything in my power to protect my identity seeing how my boyfriends murderer was running around free with police support.. WHO DO YOU TRUST WHEN THE POLICE TAKE YOUR BOYFRIEND’S MURDERER SIDE? No man but GOD!
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-twitter-facebook-20130306,0,822138.story
From the article;
This is old news. Legal Counsel for Facebook already told O’Mara that FB operates under federal law, and he would see him in federal court. O’Mara already tried circumventing federal law by having Judge Nelson enter an order directing the FBI to turn over material to O’Mara, in which they replied in so many words — shove it! You have no jurisdiction here.
Either O’Mara doesn’t know what he’s doing, or he does know and it’s simply dilatory tactics hoping to extend the trial date.
Xena, OMara already knows Facebook isn’t going to turn over the accounts and it is Federal jurisdiction, so what is the purpose have a Nelson sign a subpoena. It’s worthless.
@SpecialladyT
Come close. I’ll whisper. See, it’s because Zidiots have no knowledge of void orders of the court. They have no knowledge of jurisdiction — stuff like that. So when O’Mara plays with them like he did with the subpoena to the FBI, it gives them opportunity to build another conspiracy theory about A.G. Holder — folks like that.
Okay. No need to whisper now. The short answer is, because O’Mara pimps Zidiots.
Damn Xena, did you have to copy and paste my typo? lol
Just as I suspected, a waste of the courts time, the lil’ money he has left and energy fogen doesn’t have anymore. 😉
OMara does NOTHING other than play to the court of public opinion and the Zidiots. He just makes me more sick everyday.
@SpecialladyT
Sorry. 🙂 I understand this blog has a spelling police and —- it’s not me. LOL!!
Don’t be sick. Keep in mind that O’Mara personifies what many Americans already believe about lawyers being able to steal more with a brief case than a bank robber can steal by robbing 5 banks.
Surely he must understand this, right? I mean he went to law school. Even if he graduated last in his class, he must have learned SOMETHING!!!
@Rachael
Certainly O’Mara knows, just like he knew that issuing civil subpoenas for Trayvon’s school records weren’t going to fly, but it gave the Zidiots talking points for the several weeks before the hearing.
In his press conference there was a question pertaining to Trayvon’s juvenile records. O’Mara didn’t answer that question honestly either — another talking point thrown out to Zidiots. Juvenile records are sealed by statute, and can only be seen by deputized law enforcement. If those records do exist, Trayvon’s parents, neither attorney Crump, needed to do anything to seal them. They are sealed by law.
O’Mara is not law enforcement. He lacks standing to have LE look to see whether Trayvon has juvenile records because Trayvon is not charged with committing a crime. O’Mara fails to say this in his press conferences because that would take away Zidiot talking points about Trayvon’s purported juvenile records and false accusation that attorney Crump had them sealed.
I am not even gonna front
I’d pimp the zidiots too
nothing wrong with hustling racists and bigots out of their money
not like they are good working around the way folks
LOL
@Jun
LOL! Well, I’m not gonna front either. If I were a lawyer with a client who saw fit to spend $300,000 on his own needs before his legal costs, and causing me to be sued for $28,000, I’d pimp out his buddies for the money too.
@Xena,
How do you make the quote like that? I’ve been meaning to ask a long time ago. TY!
@SouthernGirl2
Read where you’re under the weather. Here’s sending good thoughts your way for a speedy and full recovery.
Placing the code in a comment doesn’t show because the program converts the code and shows as a blockquote. The following link shows how to blockquote. Copy what you want to quote and paste it in the portion where the instructions show “Quotation Here.”
@Xena
Thank you for your thoughtfulness and thanks for the tip.
@Xena
Testing..
https://www.facebook.com/safety/groups/law/guidelines/
I’m not skilled in lawyerspeak. Can anyone translate?
Request have to be from LE with badge/id number on LE email domain and you have to have a specific request (not vague/broad) AND know the facebook ID???
Aren’t MOM and co asking for the ID/handles/etc???
Is Judge considered LE???
Even with all of that, it sounds like a supoena will get you basic info like name and so forth…
A Court order will get you message headers and a IP address…
and it takes a Search Warrant to get to any messages, comments, or photos.
Anyone able to help?
@Lynn. O’Mara lacks standing for the first requirement. He is not a member of law enforcement. No, a judge is not law enforcement.
O’Mara has been knowing for a long time that Legal Counsel for Facebook told him in so many words to go fly a kite. Facebook is an international organization and operates pursuant to federal law. A State court lacks jurisdiction to enforce a subpoena duces tecum on Facebook.
Just like with the subpoena for the FBI, Judge Nelson’s orders issuing the subpoenas to Facebook and Twitter are void. If O’Mara wants them enforced, he has to file a cause of action in the federal court, which is where FB’s legal counsel said he would see him.
Thank you Xena! Most helpful as always.
RIP Alvin Lee……”I’d like to change the world”
I was so grateful to find this site Professor. At about this time last year I became transfixed with the protest’s surrounding this case. When searching the internet I found The Frederick Leatherman Law Blog. I knew instantly that I had found the site that could clear up all of the confusion out there. Everything you have said from the get-go has occured. I am hopeful that the trajectory will continue and fogen will be convicted and sent to prison! (I fear sometimes that he won’t due to one rogue juror). I continue to learn from all of you and am again very grateful for this site! Proud to be a Leatherhead!!!
2 X’s!
I am so grateful for this site. I found it through Firedoglake. A post of the professor’s had been crossed post there. I am so glad I clicked on the link.
I have posted comments at Firedoglake and Emptywheel since before the Scooter Libby trial and have posted articles for many years at MyFDL, which is the public access side of Firedoglake where anyone can post an article.
BTW, you should consider cross posting your articles at MyFDL. It does not cost anything and you can reach a larger audience.
Everyone else here should also consider doing the same thing.
You can do the same thing at the smirking chimp.
@Professor
Thank you so much.
I 3rd that emotion… I ran across this blog last year too following this case.. I couldn’t believe the news was taking the side of a full grown azz man who shot and killed an unarmed kid.. I mean it’s like they knew since Trayvon was black, he had to be some kind of criminal… It was that way for damn near every news site or blog I visited.. When I found this site, I knew there were still a few good people in the world.. When this case is over and fogen is under the jail, I hope the professor get all the props he deserve, because he aint been wrong yet…
4XL… because the piteous cries of that teenager still resound in my brain, and I am sickened by the mercilessness of Fogen and all his followers/supporters, including the passive ones.
Tim Smith spent the whole night 2/26/2012 being damn sure he could prove Trayvon Martin was a criminal and never did concede defeat, although in the final analysis, Trayvon Martin could have been a prisoner on DEATH ROW and it would still have been murder-2 for Fogen to kill him without a valid death warrant in his hand from the State of Florida. It’s nonsense and it’s racist bullshit and that’s all it is. The facts provable beyond a reasonable doubt by the physical evidence alone and the recorded words of the killer — the gunman — nail the charge of murder-2 and no SYG and no fantasy can change that.
I expect O’Mara’s PTSD motion any day now.
“Tim Smith spent the whole night 2/26/2012 being damn sure he could prove Trayvon Martin was a criminal…”
Could I persuade you to provide specifics?
I haven’t so far had the impression that he did much more than cuff Zimmerman, take his gun, drive Zimmerman to the police station, and place the gun in the evidence lockup.
unitron
I remain philosophical.
Anything could happen. The whole world seems so surreal these days.
Enit? Surreal, I mean.
But even OM said when he took over the case that it would go up and down for both sides. It’ll go back up for the prosecution again, in all the places that matter.
I have to say, I was a little chocked up today about this negative press.
We all know this boils down to a fundamental respect for black teens whether that Trayvon or DeeDee that is still ingrained in this country and obviously in the media.
I myself am an adoptive parent. We have three adopted kids today of two different ethnicities. We are in process for the adoption of an African American boy who is a preteen. I fear for his future. I fear with the many at risk youth we work with and are lost int he court system without hope for a brighter future.
The attitudes in this country seems to have gotten worse towards young people of color. The staunch defense of a killer of an unarmed teen and the intimidation of a young teen who’s life has been turned upside down by forces outside her control or desire due, in large part, to her ethnicity. It is just sickening.
I have been in discussion today with a few GZ supporters on a mainstream media site that reported this story just as this post stated…it said the prosecution admitted that DeeDee lied and her credibility is crumbling. I challenged it with transcripts, references, and a video…all to no avail. The supporters listed articles as their “Proof”. The absolute ignorance of the law and even how a courtroom runs is appalling (but of course they are all experienced attorneys in their own mind).
Anyway, I just had a heavy heart over all of this. I cannot imagine what the parents of these disparaged young people are feeling/thinking.
*disrespect
Last time I looked at the quote, ‘DD’ said she went someplace to get her BP checked out. I don’t remember her saying she spent the night in ‘the’ hospital.
Maybe some folks are mixing up what Crump said? If so, why is ‘DD’ responsible for something a lawyer said? Seriously. Why is she to be held accountable for something that someone else remarked on, when that other person was not under oath, not on the stand and not talking about a material matter? Am I missing a piece of a transcript?
I’d hate to be held accountable for what other people say about what they think I said, when they’re not under oath and when they’re not representing me, in a non-material matter.
No. I think she did tell Crump and the Martins she was in the hospital, but it was not under oath in a conversation where no one was under oath. Crump has added details that she did not say (but he may have heard from someone else). It is all hearsay.
The “age” issue is completely blown out of proportion. Crump made a mistake that she was 16 (she is in high school). She never lied about her age. It is stupid. The GZ supporters are convinced the age mistake is going to determine the trial. Unbelievable.
Well, all of this stuff seems pretty so-what. Crump doesn’t even represent her, does he? (Totally open to being wrong.)
The whole He-Said-That-She-Said thing….wow. Personally, I don’t even think they need ‘DD.’
I do not follow the Z-supporters much. Are they not concerned about his gazillian whoppers? After all, he is the one who is on trial, not her.
In the Treestump universe, Fogen and the Missus are allowed a gazillion whoppers on or off the stand and anywhere inbetween, Witness 8 is not.
PLEASE NO
“Fogen and the Missus are allowed a gazillion whoppers”
Can U imagine how large they’ll be after a gazillion whoppers?
Obviously, an AFro-Peruvian is free to kill any unarmed kid he chooses to mark, slander and slaughter, so long as he can rest assured that at least one of the kid’s acquaintances has or will at some point in life tell a lie to someone, or appear to be telling a lie to someone who may presume something she says is not true.
Open season guys!
Yup. Crazy. Just insane.
I know what you mean, KA. I had the same experience on the NBC site. I noticed some of the zimmies had a new “talking point” someone must have given to them.
Basically they were saying that Trayvon advocates were not using the released evidence, but only the tidbits of evidence that the media chose to release.
Kind of sounds like projection, doesn’t it?
Exactly. Do you notice when they cannot answer a point, they attack something broadly about “liberals” and “black racists”?
Most make up their own information like Trayvon towered over GZ by 6 inches or had “screwdrivers” on him.
They will defend it until the cows come home….
They must not be very smart if they allow cows in their homes.
The cows are there to protect them from rampaging teenagers with screwdrivers.
And if Elsie don’t put the fear of the Almighty in you, Elmer will.
unitron
@Professor. Your comment about the cows reminded me of a 2005 Wisconsin case and made me dig because no one might believe me if I shared about the case without supporting evidence. I could not find the associated press article, (8 yrs old) but did find where it was posted on a forum.
A farmer had seen footprints and tire tracks on his property, and decided to install motion detectors. He caught 63 yr old Harold G. Hart coming out of his barn. Hart admitted that he had came to the barn about 50 times to have sex with calves.
http://forums.wtf.com/threads/what-about-the-cows.6952/
For his mug shot and charges, see this link:
http://mugshots.com/US-Counties/Wisconsin/Clark-County-WI/Harold-G-Hart.20116834/details/
Okay, so he tried the veal.
But did he tip the waitresses?
unitron
I love their thoughts about B. Crump losing his license or being called as a witness (even after the recent ruling)…they are convinced MOM is going to provide some Perry Mason moment over DeeDee’s age (which she told truthfully, Crump was mistaken) and they will immediately acquit GZ.
I agree. I was even called a “rodent” because I have my chipmunk friend as an avatar.
@KA, it’s a real sad state of affairs to know that, there are so many ignorant racist folks residing in this country. a country by the way which they think is theirs and theirs alone. especially since their fore parents came here and settled this country, while running the Indians who were here first, off of their land. then on to the continent of Africa, where they forced their fee labor force onto slave ships and, brought them here to do the work which they were too damn lazy to perform themselves.
This country will *NEVER* be the land of the free and the home of the brave!
I think the media is just doing what the media does, which is make it more sensational than it really is
But either way, mathematically, even if we were to say that Deedee lied, it does not make Fogenhats’ curves straight and wrongs right, therefore, it is meaningless, which is why the judge just deemed the issue moot
@Jun
Absolutely agreed. I’ve been saying exactly that. The more sensationalist stories = the more papers sold = the more profits = the more salaries and dividends = the more money to reinvest in more journalists to write sensationalist stories!
To the average person though, it is like “so what” LMAO
Well, I think the defense wants the milk of discovery for free, and the state is saying no, not going to accommodate.
I was thinking…would the proper way to go about things for the defense be to depose W8 first, then file subpoenas or other motions to redepose if they felt she was lying to them about things. I mean, is it me, or do they seem to do things half a$$ backwards?
Yes, that would have been the proper way – to have deposed her already, but you see, then they would not be able to do what they are doing now.
follow
Welcome to Florida. The ignorance of the few reporters who claim to be following this case astounds me as well.
I think MoM might however be the only person involved in this case who sees things clearly: he knows he can say any ludicrous thing to the press and have it printed,aired, tweeted and blogged about in a process that legitimizes his bullshit.
Normal, reality based individuals such as myself and BDLR are “baffled” by his antics.
But strangely (iirc) during the fairly long press conference after the hearing MOM was very subdued compared to West in respect of DD, basically refusing to be drawn into the “she lied” argument. Methinks this could either be a wise move of his to not alienate himself from potential jurors, or he is cleverer than West and realises that with the information they got so far, to label DD a “liar”, let alone a perjurer, is taking it a bit too far and he’d better wait to depose and learn more entering into that dynamic.
errata, last line should have read:
“…learn more BEFORE entering into that dynamic.”
@gbrbsb
I think MOM was subdued because BDLR was staring at him from the other side of those mics. Usually it’s his regular crowd of puppets…but this time was different.
@gbrbsb
Excellent observation. I caught that too.
Agree with your post.
It seems to me that MOM and West are playing good attorney/bad attorney where West gets the message out about Dee-Dee that they want out to the public and to the GZ supporters and MOM allows this and doesn’t comment anything to the contrary about West’s public accusations about Dee-Dee. So West achieves Team Z goals while MOM remains silent and focuses on another topic.
(I admit I am very biased because I have heard MOM lie over and over about evidence as well as malign Trayvon Martin so I really don’t like him to put it lightly. I am giving MOM no credit for being clever, wise or ethical. MOM’s tactics are disgusting to me and his sidekick West’s are as well.)
Yes, like that, “good attorney/bad attorney”, and letting West achieve Team Z goals while MOM plays the “good guy” fits very well but that is still a “clever” or “wise” move on MOM’s and/or Team Z’s behalf in the event there either be a logical excuse for DD’s “lie” or to not to sound too bullying of a teenager. I may not like it but I am no judge as to whether MOM lied or is ethical or not because in such an aggressive and media exposed adversarial system as in the US it seems to me they are merely playing the part expected of them. A defence lawyer has a duty to defend a client to the best of his ability making use of every legal trick in the book, and if professional ethics for lawyers are upheld anything like here in the UK, as officers of the court if MOM and West could be proven to be purposefully lying to materially affect a case I presume they would soon be barred, so as I was once advised by a litigation lawyer, unless provable and actionable it isn’t a “lie” merely another person’s version of the truth.
Apparently most media outlets have made the strategic decision that accepting the defense version means playing it safe. Only when that becomes untenable will they be all over this shocking new twist that nobody could possibly have anticipated.
If they are called out they can always hide behind a very broad interpretation of the presumption of innocence that for some reason never applies to defendants without a vocal fan club.
I hope Nancy Grace will be following the trial. She knows he is full of crap. Once they convict Jodi Arias, Nancy should have more time to focus on the Fogen trial.
Could please you expand on why “The jury will not hear about [the supposed lie] and the defense will not be permitted to mention it”
Reply@
We dont no if it was a lie or misscomcunication Or simple case os semanticts.
An unless this alleged lie had any bearings on the evening she was an ear wittness it is not relevant.
The defence cannot mention it as there calling her charecter innto question.
An the prosecution would then have the right to recipicrate an call there clients..fogen..Charecter into question as well.
An thats a door experienced defence litigaters do here best to barricade……
But they will hear about it day in day out untill the finaly deem it prudent to depose wit 8.
An when it all turns out to be a storm in a T Cup.
An blown way out of potpotion.
We will never hear a Dickie bird about it again.
There agenda was fufilled ..potential jurours hearing lisr liar liar attached ru her neme .
In the weeks leading up to thetriiiiial.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I can’t help get the feeling the state baited the defense had they walked right in to the trap. State never stated at the hearing w8 lied, or misrepresented herself. I don’t believe they said no records existed. They simply stated they didn’t obtain medical records and if the state wants them they can ask during the deposition.
BLDR didn’t seem concerned in the least, at the accusations West was throwing around during his stand-up routine. Defense made an assumption, ran with it, and Bernie sat there like a “potted palm” and said nothing. I’m waiting to see how this all plays out
I agree that the prosecution didn’t seem concerned, but if it was a trap then it better be worth it, because it causes a lot of bad publicity among people who don’t pay much attention to the case.
George Zimmerman Hearing Press Conference BDLR
(OR, what BDLR really said)
For me, it doesn’t matter what GZ supporters think, say or do, with information presented. There’s more than enough evidence readily available for them to analyze and come to a logical conclusion that GZs story doesn’t make sense. Its their choice not to do so. At the end of the day, all the evidence that really matters will speak for itself…and it will speak volumes!
It’s unbelievable to me, when I read comments on OS of ppl still parroting what GZ and RZjr claimed in the beginning, of the vicious attack Trayvon launched on poor George. I’m patiently waiting for the ‘shock and awe’ assault the state is about to bring.
That lady that kept harassing Bernie is one of the reasons that witness 8 is kept under lock and key secret
Witness 8 is being stalked, that is that
I feel the woman who kept pestering is probably not a reporter and a Zimmernut
Listen for yourself at 7:00 in
The only person accusing witness 8 of lying is Don West
West then asks the state to confirm that she was lying
Guy states that there will be no hospital records, the issue is moot, take witness 8’s deposition and if medical records are truly necessary, then they can have a hearing on that issue
Judge Nelson says that if her testimony is different from before and medical records are necessary after her deposition then they can have a hearing on that issue
West keeps on pushing his accusations and for the records and when the state learned of his assumed “lie” from witness 8
Guy says it is not necessary, just take her deposition and then we can move on from there
Nelson says to take her deposition and if something different comes up, regarding her medical records, then they can have a hearing with her deposition regarding that issue alone
She also states that if there are no medical records that is that, and unless stated different, that is that
No one ever claimed she lied, they simply stated there will be no medical records unless they take her deposition and it comes up
She then dismisses it as moot without prejudice
You can listen and watch for yourself
Nothing was ever confirmed or denied regarding the truth of the matter and it was found to be moot
@Jun, that pestering woman was none other than Renee Stutzman. the Raggedy Ann reporter for the OS. she is definitely a Zimmeridiot from head to toe. just watch part five of the hearing on 02/05/13 and, watch how she never leaves that courtroom until Fogen leaves. IMO the OS has been very biased in this case and, I thought that good journalism is not suppose to be like that. but these folks are biased and they don’t care who knows it.
@KittySP, not to mention what ever the Feds have got on him also and, I believe they do have something, other wise I don’t think there would still be an on going investigation against him. I believe his sealed text/emails will help put the nails in his coffin. Fogen is guilty as sin and he knows it.
It was already deemed moot
The defense can not even lay a foundation on it now, because he can not confirm or deny anything, and all he has are accusations without any backing, on top of it being a moot issue LOL
Besides, I think the state is not fearful because even if we are to say that she is a liar regarding that fact, her testimony is supported by phone records, witnesses, and on scene evidence, and if the defense is seen grilling witness 8 with no evidence or proof of their accusations, it will not look well for them
The issue being dismissed as moot is the fairest ruling because it lets witness 8 keep her privacy of her medical records, and does not infringe on her rights, and there is no losing ground for either the state or the defense
Hey Jun, I stole your response for another media site. It was worded well.
Let me know if you want loyalties. 🙂
http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2013/03/trayvon-martins-girlfriends-credibility-is-crumbling.html?cid=6a00d83451b4ba69e2017d418d3593970c#comment-form
Very Nicely Done! 😉
that’s exactly it
My take is that Witness #8 has never been nearly as important as the forensic evidence. In fact, the cumulative picture from the various witnesses has always been a bit garbled–as would be appropriate from people each getting a bit of something that happened very quickly when they were busy doing something else.
Recall that it was Crump who played up the importance of Witness #8. But his aims have always been somewhat different. His focus was to bring something to the forefront that would sway the public sufficiently that a sluggish legal system would have to respond to the outcry. A witness who heard something very close to Trayvon’s last coherent words had a great power to do so. But that is not the same thing that is needed to sway a jury.
Once goosed by Crump the legal system has moved forward with collecting and analyzing forensic evidence which is pretty likely to demonstrate how nigh onto impossible it would have been for the whole thing to go down anywhere near how George has been claiming.
Mein Gott
Re my above post.
Theres such a thing as typos an dyslexia doesnt helm much either.
But sometimes you got to throw your hands up an say thts just gibberish..
Sorry I knew what I meant even if I was the onl one whom speaks giberishease.
join hte crowd
Dyslexics of the world UNTIE………
browser spellcheck??????
I did get it Colin. It’s actually interesting how well one can understand. So no, it wasn’t only you.
But that you know: my god in German. I am impressed.
@Colin,
I struggled through every sylababble in your earlier posts, because I knew there was a pony in there somewhere. It was difficult but not impossible, and I only found full comprehension after reading aloud @ breakneck speed. No mulling over every word or part of one – somehow they linked up like best buds as the oratory rolled on. And on. And on forward. My moggie was spellbound.
And then I realized what phenomenon had taken plce. I was reading it out in a Scots burr – a brogue, yes, best Highlander discourse since Sir Harry Lauder was knighted.
Aye, that’s the ticket. Never mind the wee dyslexia that creeps from keyboard to screen. We all get it, dear friend, whether we read in brogue or rogue …
Braw ‘n loyal Colin,you have won our hearts!
colin – my youngest daughter has a learning disability which presents much like dyslexia, my younger brother is dyslexic — both have genius level IQs. i may be a grammar/syntax nazi at times (mostly in appropriate situations, such as editing) but i read everything you write. please, do not ever let something like that hold you back. you are in good company.
Waiving the SYG or not? BDLR said he thought the defense was ‘waiving’ the SYG because there had been no motion to roll the SYG hearing over into trial. Judge Nelson then corrected BDLR when she responded that her question did not ask if the defense was ‘waiving SYG, she said she asked if they were planning to use the April 2 weeks that had been set aside.
So, looks like the immunity hearing all rolled into trial, is ok with Judge Nelson, at least seems so, but she could be waiting for a formal motion (but then, the two week window is gone, so why would she not say something before the April dates are given up? Speculation by media legal analysts has included, judge will hear the immunity portion and decide before the jury deliberates. Jury could be sent home if immunity granted. (that seems strange and a huge inconvenience to jurors who dedicate their time for nothing) Another media legal analyst version more recently, that the jury will decide everything.
How Florida handles this may have been shown in the recent murder acquittal of the cop who shot and killed his son. Maybe we can find transcripts of the judge’s statements to the jury before and after deliberation.
It’s all strange, BDLR seems as bewildered as anyone. But I think if this can be oulled off by fogen (he sure doesn’t want Nelson deciding anything is my guess), it’s his best chance at acquittal, the confusion of syg, self-defense and the various requireemnts of each having to be dealt with simultaneously by lay persons.
Source for last hearing, 5th March, Part 4, BDLR at about 8 minutes.
Of course, we know what our own host has written about this rolling rolling rolling — all very strange indeed. Will be interesting to see how BDLR responds to the roll-up to win motion, if any is submitted. Will he bring out the contstitutionality of the whole thing, presumption of innocence conflict, etc?
Rollll up to Win. Maybe this can be applied to the roll-up plan for the ‘large’ fogen. (since most won’t get the inside joke, here’s a clue– it’s an annual event up in Canuck-land)
She set it for April but I do not know
Does it have to be 45 days before? If so, then they are waiving it because they said they will not be using it
Not ‘waiving’ the immunity hearing, according to Judge Nelson. Listen to the clip starting just before 8 minutes, she says that clearly.
Well then I do not know because it has not been scheduled and she scheduled it for April and all there is is the trial
I have no idea
Ay2z, Nelson is not responsible for helping O’Mara set up his strategy. If he says he doesn’t need the 2 weeks in April, that means Judge Nelson’s inquiry is answered and she will not set aside those two weeks for his SYG hearing. SHE doesn’t have to ask him what he would like to do INSTEAD of the SYG hearing. My guess is that neither the judge nor O’Mara will ever mention the SYG again and that O’Mara will not try to “roll it” into the trial. If he makes such an idiotic motion it will be denied.
Could please you expand on why “The jury will not hear about [the supposed lie] and the defense will not be permitted to mention it”
I will try but Freddy prolly has a better answer
The issue is moot and the defense can not confirm or deny it as well, it does not fall under any category of witness impeachment
One thing I have come to realize is the members of Fogenhats’ gang are like a cult and pretty much out of their bloodclot minds
I normally would not say this but the stories the defendant weaves make no bloodclot sense whatsoever nor do Fogenhats’ gang members either or Junior
Sometimes I wonder if Fogenhats’ gang members are just messing with the defense by getting them to do ridiculous things for money because a lot of it makes no sense
Their lawsuit against NBC is ludicrous
His claim of self defense is borderline bananas
Their request to go through Deedee’s hospital and medical records is really stupid and invasive and the idea the state and the judge gave them was to depose Deedee and then they can figure out any medical records are needed if necessary but then it came to realization that it was moot and that was that
Personally I think Fogenhats is a little coocoo for cocoa puffs his self
You can even tell by his NEN call the dispatcher thought Fogenhats was an idiot too
Um, Jun? I’ve followed your comments for months and I think “Normally, Jun WOULD say that” because it tells truth to tyrants.
LOL – agree!
her medical records are irrelevant. she wasn’t in the hospital the night trayvon was killed.. whether she went to the funeral or wake is irrelevant. since they happened on the 2nd and 3rd of march 2012.
bloodclot, huh?
http://frederickleatherman.com/2013/03/05/no-immunity-hearing-in-zimmerman-case#comment-84148
masonblue commented on No immunity hearing in Zimmerman case.
in response to Malisha:
Boyd, here is a fascinating little piece of the whole “Fogen lies” thing. When Fogen first described the terribleness of Trayvon Martin and his unwarranted savage attack on a “good guy,” he quoted: “What the fuck’s your problem, homie?” In one of the subsequent interviews by Serino (a skilled “BTW guy,” BTW — he knows […]
Most definitely not, since Dee Dee lied about going to the hospital.
____________________________________________________
Has the impersonator returned?
unitron
what is the proof that Deedee lied? and how would that obviate the proven lies of the killer?
I’m quoting the professor there.
Or someone passing themselves off as him.
Wouldn’t be the first time there’s been an impostor on this site.
unitron
@Unitron- He’s actually searching SPECIFICALLY for means to call out the Prof. Not disagreement, based on changing circumstances, but to call him a “troll”. A pejorative the very same professor defended him from recently.
“Prof., I found this article about a prior case recently in which a defendant tried to roll the immunity hearing into a trial… Has the impersonator returned?
unitron”
Everyone’s aware. Everyone knows. Everyone remembers since you mention it every 30 seconds which is about how long betwen posts who disagree with you. How about this- Everyone here can read what they wrote. If they didn’t write it, they can let the board know that, or discuss it with the professor.
Your self-righteous hall monitor post monitoring is unnecessary. We HAVE a host and you are neither him nor his wife. (and when I was hacked BEFORE YOU, I went to HIM, not YOU) . If the professor was hacked, he would say so. Either way – YOU wouldn’t know one way or the other, so that fingerpointing was all pointless BS, trying to create drama.
All you’re doing is causing dissention. Yes, I saw your post about “yet another name for Nefertari05”, when it was clear that Searching Mind had just made a typo, and there was no drama involved, except what you attempted to create. “Criminals” aren’t “prevailing” here.
Roger that Nef…….X2 on your comment
WHO is “searching SPECIFICALLY for means to call out the Prof. “?
The imposter from last August?
And why do you still post from 2 different accounts?
unitron
I have not been hacked.
Exactly what I would expect the hacker who’s taken over your account to say.
: – )
unitron
I suspect you may be thinking of my use of masonblue that occassionally appears in the header of one of my comments.
I have two wordpress sites. This is my second site. When I registered for my first site, I registered as “Masonblue.” That is now my default wordpress name and I have to edit every comment I make to change from masonblue to Frederick Leatherman, my birth name.
Sometimes I forget to do that.
Perhaps you also did not see the
: – )
Somewhere back between June and August of 2012 I asked about your posts coming up under different names and you provided that same perfectly logical explanation, but shortly thereafter words I did not type appeared in several post which appeared to be from my WordPress account/identity.
(Since my later addition of a non-generic avatar, it’s now easier to tell them apart in looking at old threads)
But when I see
“Most definitely not, since Dee Dee lied about going to the hospital.”
in what appears to be an answer from you to a post of Malisha’s, a view with which you seem to disagree shortly thereafter, I wonder if the imposter has returned.
Having myself been “imposted”, I tend to keep an eye out for recurrences.
unitron
I just realized that you might have thought that my question
“And why do you still post from 2 different accounts?”
was intended for you.
It was for NEF05
unitron
I do not have two accounts, unitron. I have ONE account linked to ONE email address, which was how the professor verified my claim of hacking to be accurate. While youmay think Nef05/NEF05/Nefertertari05 are all different accounts, they’re not. The BAD thing is you know this. It was done to you when you were hacked, in the middle of my hacking situation. You and I discussed it.
So, the fact that you are using knowingly false info to try and make me seem sketchy, when I’ve been a die-had, unashamedly biased Justice for Trayvon advocate from day one – that tells me something. Accusing the Professor of hacking, insteadof just asking him, tells me something else. The fact that Racer, JUN. MMP and others can’t stand you – many whom I respectfor their perspicacity and intellect – tells me even more.
You’re trying to divide and conquer. The professor’s support dwells on civility and not lowering yourselves to the fogen family leval, with regard to insulting them. You didn’t insult them – you insulted me, the professor, racer, jun and anyone else you use your “self-appointed” post monitor wannabe status to belittle their writing, because you can’t make a VIABLE argument.
If YOU do NOT hold yourself to the professor’s enumerated standards, expect a response in kind. You will not accuse good people of BS. My loyalty and integrity won’t allow it. Similar qualities of people all over the word has brought them here as well. Deal with it!
Is this post:
http://frederickleatherman.com/2013/02/26/be-at-peace-sweet-trayvon/#comment-79493
by Nefertari05,
A. You, NEF05, with a different name somehow attached to your post.
B. You posting from a separate WordPress.com account.
C. Someone entirely else with a name similar to the one on an account you no longer use.
D. Just WordPress screwing up royally?
unitron
Seriously, stop. You’re just looking ridiculous now. Nefertari05 = Nef05 = NEF05. They are all ONE wordpress account. O. N. E.
1, uno, un. Did it NEVER occur to your du.. err your person, that I could have used any name in the world INCUDING “unitron” had I been some covert hacker. Not one post of mine is anti-trayvon, IN A YEAR though MANY of yours are.
Now, why. is. that? …from an alleged hacker. I used my own uname so those from HP would recognize me and the reputation for fact, accuracy and documentary support, would recognize me. I don’t need a “fake” name. My word is good!
“B. You posting from a separate WordPress.com account.”
YOU know this to be an intentional lie, because YOU know how your hacking was accomplished, as well as I do. So you are KNOWINGLY spreading falsehoods. YOU also know the professor stated back in Jan, that nefertari05 and Nef05 are the same person, posting from the same account.Yet, you still spread it.
So tell us, unitron, what do you think to gained be spreading demostrably false info about me? What exactly do you demonstrate in an attempt to win, with utterly no respect for truth, LCP?
When I post, WordPress always attaches the same account name (onlyiamunitron) to my post that it attaches or has attached to all of my other posts anywhere that uses the WordPress.com comment posting software.
I find it confusing that on your single account it seems to grab one name out of a supply of several to attach to your post and then later chooses a different name from that same grab bag to attach to another of your posts.
The more simple explanation would seem to be that you actually have more than one WordPress.com account, but I don’t trust their software enough to not be all screwed up to assume that.
I just don’t want to be reading something from some imposter while thinking it’s actually something posted by you.
I discovered after the fact when I added an avatar that it differentiates my posts from those of the imposter.
Perhaps you could grace your account with one as well.
This looks nice:
unitron
Jesus Christ dude…..give it a break…..
This is the last time I’m going to say it. THIS account is the SAME account as the others. It is the EMAIL that validates it, NOT the user name. I could be anyone. I CHOOSE to be a person who has worked hard to gain a reputable posting history.
(NEF05) Check and MATE!
So in other words you have different WordPress.com screen names linked to the same email address.
To me that sounds like more than one WordPress.com account, but at least I finally understand what’s been a very confusing situation.
unitron
(who’s glad to finally have that straightened out)
@Unitron et al –
Hey guys, why don’t we just give everyone a hug and go on from here, with really significant actions: analyzing info/evidence as it becomes available, and searching and pressing for Justice For Trayvon.
Nobody seeking Justice for Trayvon need be attacked, nor need justify his or her posts.
We all take our lumps sometimes, because it’s easy to get wires crossed on long threads, and because tapping into a keyboard is no match for person-to-person in-the-flesh conversation between two live beings.
And so, sometimes we are, we consider, misunderstood (“My thread-mate doesn’t understand me …”) and sometimes we create misunderstandings for others.
NONE OF THAT is as significant as Justice for Trayvon – and the Youth of America – and the world!
We are all imperfect. Let us find that charming and human about each other.
It may take effort. But if you could, to a tiny degree, love a piranha, couldn’t you open your heart wider to all those here striving for Justice for Trayvon?
I hope so.
1. You did: And the professor is perfectly able to identify a hacked post himself. The PROFESSOR, not unitron.
“onlyiamunitron says:
March 6, 2013 at 7:28 pm
I’m quoting the professor there.
Or someone passing themselves off as him.
Wouldn’t be the first time there’s been an impostor on this site.
unitron
2. They’re the SAME account, and since you KNOW how you were hacked, you KNOW it’s the same acount.
Aside from that – When you can explain to me the difference between Matt/Matthew, Steve/Steven,Tim/Timothy, Pat/Patrick/Patricia, Mike/Michael, Jon/Jonathan, Niecy/Deniece,and all the rest then you can talk to me about Nef/Nefertari. Because there’s only ONE difference between these names and the others, and It’s certainly not something I believed I’d have to deal with in this August company.
I don’t remember any of those other people saying they’d had to create a second account because the first one had been hacked.
Is that the difference of which you speak?
Is it safe for me to assume that any post by NEF05 is the real you and that any post under a similar but not identical name is someone entirely else who is not you and does not speak for you?
And if I see what appears to be the professor in two different places saying two different things, how do I find out which one is him and which one isn’t without asking?
unitron
The professor stated empatically, he was not hacked. Now you think he’s lying because that’s what a hacker would do? SERIOUSLY?!!?
Sigh…. I’m done with this prevailing criminal. Requires folks with bigger shovels than me.
Did you not see the
: – )
at the end of my comment to him?
unitron
I don’t even get what you’re saying, Unitron.
I do understand what I’m saying.
The professor’s reply to you of
“Most definitely not, since Dee Dee lied about going to the hospital.”
seemed at odds with his position on the question in the next thread he started, so I wondered if it was really he who wrote that, or if last summer’s imposter was back.
When he said he had not been hacked and I said that’s what I’d expect the hacker to say, I appended a “smiley”, like this
: – )
to indicate that I was joking around with him about it.
unitron
Perhaps, should there be a conflict between two of the PROFESSOR’S statements, maybe you could just ASK him for clarification, instead of ASSUMING he’s been hacked. You know, like normal people – not “self-proclaimed” post monitors.
“Perhaps, should there be a conflict between two of the PROFESSOR’S statements, maybe you could just ASK him for clarification…”
Fine, give me his phone number.
Otherwise, I’m left with posting on this site to bring things to his attention.
“…instead of ASSUMING he’s been hacked.”
“Has the impersonator returned?” sounds to me a lot more like a question than an assumption, and if you look at that squiggly thing on the end that looks like ?, you can even see that I intended it as a question.
unitron
Prof., I found this article about a prior case recently in which a defendant tried to roll the immunity hearing into a trial.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/03/05/184914/zimmerman-defense-no-need-for.html
“But it’s unclear whether Zimmerman’s defense team will be allowed to ask the judge to dismiss the case based on Stand Your Ground once the trial has started. The strategy has been attempted before, unsuccessfully, in Miami-Dade.
The defendant: Andrew James Rolle, is accused of murdering a Miami police detective in January 2008. He claims he was defending himself when he shot and killed James Walker in a confrontation in North Miami Beach.
Earlier this year, Rolle’s lawyer asked for a Stand Your Ground immunity hearing to be held at the same time as the trial, allowing Rolle to testify only once. But Miami-Dade prosecutors objected; they worried that they would be unable to appeal the judge’s decision on the Stand Your Ground issue once a jury was selected, because that would raise the issue of double jeopardy, which prevents defendants from being tried twice for the same crime. Rolle withdrew his request this week.”
Just wondering your thoughts on this, could the State use the same arguments? Is there a 45 day timeframe?
I really like how you explain everything Mr Leatherman.I read that 70% of syg hearings are won in Florida 73% if a black person is the victim so O ‘mara must really think he is on shaky ground.All this hoopla about DeeDee to me is just that.I personally don’t think she was even his girlfriend not that it matters.I think it was Crump who asked how long they knew each other and she said kindergartenThen asked if she was his girlfriend she said they were getting there.Honestly no one said she lied they just said there were no hospital records.No wonder people reach the wrong conclusions in cases with the way the media portrays things.Where I live neither side can discuss a case in the media.To me the important part of the hearing was no syg and I’m not even that smart god.
All this is really making me wonder whats in all the sealed evidence they were tryna get from the FBI like, Trayvon (DD may have left voicemails on Trayvon’s phone) and forgen’s voicemails and text messages that night.. Whatever it is, it has something to do with DD because the defense is going out of their way to intimidate her while trying to pump Crump, the Martin’s, the internet, HELL, everybody and their Mamas for information.. That evidence must be DAMING…
Didn’t those witnesses have a right to appear and object to their bio info being released?
Mountainmanpat how do the T s in Syywrting Prof.
Thats easy make sure yoy small pane agilr enough to turn tight circled is carrying jusr enough fuel for your flight rer sky mrssage yout about to run,
Cesnnas twin enginge props are prefest fot crop dusting an sgy writting,
Its so stable an balanced if push comes to shove she can handle like a glider.
To answer your question Mountain Man Pat
In order to dot an i you would first create thr horizental straight line.
Bt flying vertical up or doen .
Whateever is vbest suited to conditions .
Then you would level of with thr vertical streak of the straight chem trail.
Fly about 20 klicks about turn an five miles out rom target cut all engines an glide,
Just as you where about to flt across it 20 feet prior youd repower engines an just before they engage fully they give out a wee belch /backfire/an then sturst purring like the beutifull plane it id.
Long shot is this little belch produces a near perfect we circle that looks like youve doted the eye.
Much less technical flying involved if you sky write in CAPITALS.
The reporter asking about that is really, really ignorant. BDLR was not going to give her a lesson in law at a press conference. ShelLIE lied to the court about a material fact in which the court would base a decision on regarding bond. If DeeDee lied about going to the hospital, that has absolutely nothing to do with GZ’s case.
The defense has spent a lot of time trying to disparage and intimidate witnesses rather than focusing on how they are going to prove that GZ killed Trayvon in self-defense. It’s going to be an interesting trial.
http://www.nbcnews.com/video/dateline/50595076
Here is an example of intimidating and disparaging witnesses will not work out
@Xena!
I can blockquote. Yay! But it won’t work on 3ChicsPolitico the way it does here. Why O Why?!
Try it with the word blockquote in all uppercase letters.
Sometimes that makes a difference.
I think the original Hyper Text Markup Language (HTML) code specification was set up that way, and some sites’ comment software automatically compensates and some doesn’t.
unitron
@onlyiamunitron
TY!
Did it work?
unitron
I am sure the pouthouse crowd are both frothing at the mouth and creaming themselves thinking this will be the last we’ve heard of DD. *rolls eyes* Of course that’s only because they are taking from this only what they want to hear and not what they refuse to acknowledge. Which is that whether she went to the hospital, her regular doctor or even to church to calm down and pray is 100% irrelevant to what she heard that night.
But hey they think GZ’s preparation H needing tush(just a guess as a result of the fluctuating weight and probably fouled up pipes) is free of having to touch the stand.
Bingo! The bios contain information about ASSOCIATES and family members!
That should send a chill down w6 and w13’s, w17 & w20’s spines.
Their idiotic idea is that only bad people could possibly want Fogen prosecuted for killing Trayvon Martin. This is only happening because of a conspiracy of bad people doing criminal things:
Corey draws up a false affidavit to charge poor innocent Fogen.
Why?
Because she is scared of the Black Mob.
All witnesses who say they saw anything that indicates possible guilt on Fogen’s part are bad people with criminal backgrounds whose obvious bad ulterior motives will be uncovered when they are investigated for their terrible wrong-doing.
And blah blah blah blah blah…
Because why would anybody GOOD want to prosecute Fogen for simply killing a kid who savagely attacked him? Doesn’t stand to reason, does it?
LMAO They have to save the white race ROFL
Mr. Zimmerman has involved himself in the discovery. Was that the phrase 😉
I am always disappointed when America has an opportunity to do the right thing-but doesn’t. On this day 156 years ago Dred Scott (a former slave who considered himself free by the fact that he had lived in two free states before moving to a slave state) appealed to the Supreme Court of the United States for his freedom. The evidence seemed to be on his side. He lost the case, however, and once again was enslaved. To add insult to injury, Chief Justice Taney stated that blacks “had no rights which the white man was bound to respect.” It took the 13th Amendment to change this decision-8 years and a Civil War later.
The more things change the more they remain the same. It is no surprise to me, then, that in 2012/2013 supporters of Trayvon Martin’s killer cannot fathom that Trayvon had every right to walk in the neighborhood where he was a guest. He had every right to run from a creepy looking man (or men?) without being stalked, captured and killed. Now it seems as if these same supporters don’t feel that a teenage girl who was an ear witness to something horrible happening to her friend has every right to be frightened. She has every right to be reluctant to reveal information that will lead other scary, creepy people to possible find her and hurt her.
This mess has gone on too long for me to think it will end well-whatever the verdict. Fear of “the Black Mob” has taken on a life of its own and there have been other Black teens killed in extrajudicial ways since February 26, 2012.
Vincent Chin – beaten to death with baseball bats for being Asian. The perps got like 2 years in prison.
Emmet Till – a 14 year old boy beaten to death by grown men for being black. Nothing ever done about it.
Issei Sagawa – shot a lady in France, raped her dead corpse, and then proceeded to eat her. Served one year and is a free man in Japan.
I could name more cases but the judicial system of the free world scare me because of the loopholes that let psychos free at times
@texad (((((Applause)))))
It’s still hard for people to see how some folks want Justice Taney’s decision to stand to this day, and the amendment making that decision moot is the root of today’s sovereign citizenship movement.
Right on, Texad, well said.
The Justice Taney decision was never reversed. The Constitution was amended but that decision has remained, has never been overturned, and is still a blight on our system of laws. The judge actually said that CONGRESS did not have the right to legislate that a Territory could join the union slave-free. Imagine: he would have it that slavery was not just legal, but mandatory. Although he was smarter than Fogen, intellectually, he was the same sorry sort. His abuse rights trumped everybody else’s living rights.
@texad.
great post!
Ahhh…
And they want W8’s bio too….. Gotcha.
West changed his tune about the bio’s. I guess it finally dawned on him that witnesses would be very hostile to his “homicide suspect” client if he went after their bios, and the bios of their associates.
Then again, could be a good cop/bad cop routine, with West playing both roles.
The “good cop” now walks it back, and says he only wants Trayvon’s and George’s bio’s.
If there are no hospital records, then the subpoena is moot..
Is it possible that there are in fact records, but they gave that up to nullify the subpoena of her records, Prof.?
…seems a stretch…
Depends on what Guy said.
It’s possible, if he said we (the prosecution) do not have any hospital or medical records, you will have to ask her at the deposition.
I listened
All Guy said was there will be no medical records, take her deposition, and then after that we can discuss potentially her medical records, but the issue is actually moot
West kept calling her a liar regardless and asked when the state found out
Guy never confirmed nor denied anything, and simply stated to depose her, there will be no medical records, then after the deposition we can discuss medical records if necessary
Judge Nelson agreed and told them to depose her and then they can come back for medical records if it is even necessary
West kept on going with his “she lied” and wanted the medical records
Guy said it is not necessary and to just depose her
Judge Nelson decides the issue is moot, and dismisses it as moot without prejudice because the end result of the argument leads nowhere
If someone has a regular doctor’s appointment and that doctor’s office is in the “doctors’ office wing” , maybe that person would say he/she went to the hospital (meaning that person had a doctor’s appointment. The record would be with the doctor and not the hospital.)
“If someone has a regular doctor’s appointment and that doctor’s office is in the “doctors’ office wing” , maybe that person would say he/she went to the hospital (meaning that person had a doctor’s appointment. The record would be with the doctor and not the hospital.)”
Would they stay in the doctor’s office overnight?
“Crump: So you had to spend the night in the hospital?
DeeDee: Yeah.
Crump: And so this made you so sick that you had to go get medical assistance.
DeeDee: Yes.”
unitron
I do not know Trayvon Martin or his family or his friends or anyone who knows anyone who knows anyone that knows them, but THIS MURDER MAKES ME SICK.
Finally, the bogus, demagoguing slandering campaign of a defense ALSO MAKES ME SICK.
If I were a friend or relative, I’d be way more than sick.
Unit Ron is such a douche bag, man
The issue was resolved as moot, which means, the debate leads nowhere and has no effect on the matter at hand, which is the murder 2 trial
They can not confirm or deny she went to the hospital or medical attention
They simply said there will be no records
depose her first and if it comes up again then we can have a hearing on the records
which means
ask the witness 8 for the records and see what she says
can they prove or deny she went to the hospital or somewhere else?
No
Case closed
These are not uncharted waters, by any means. There are many good reasons underlying the hearsay evidence rules, and we’re intuitively grasping them in this discussion.
Go directly to the source. Depose W8, and ask her for yourself what transpired. That’s what trial lawyers DO, for heaven’s sake.
The defense appears to be VERY AFRAID afraid of this young woman, Witness 8.
I do believe that female reporter who was aggressively asking about the perjury charges for DeeDee was Kathi Belich from WFTV. I’m sure we all remember her from the Caylee Anthony case. I’m actually quite disappointed in her display yesterday at the press conference.
I thought it was Rene Stutzman. At the end of the video it looked like her head clipped the camera, w/same color hair and glasses, imo. She certainly seems to be reporting for the defense, imo.
The one repeatedly asking the same question about 3 times was Kathi Belich. I’m sure Rene was there with her reporter’s hat on so she could be sure to get her narrative from O’Mara but the obnoxious reporter was definitely Kathi Belich.
I thought it sounded like Kathy Belich too. I am pretty sure I saw her in the court room as well talking to BDLR at the end of the hearing.
Who was the black lady that O’Mara spoke to at length before the trial in the group of people who sat behind the defense. I’m under the impression these folks were media, but not certain.
Yeah it was Kathy Belich alright. I expected that of the Stutz, but Kathy suprised me.
Professor, I wish you’d tell Junior (@rzimmermanjr) that, on Twitter, as he’s protesting the US media aren’t even reporting it! He’s such a liar; no doubt playing on the ‘woe is me’ defence stance, to date, AND indirectly begging for more funds!
He has to keep his standard slogan up. Media bias. 😉
against his poor brother of course.
Indeed! For me, it’s just become rather boring having to read his continuous and repetitive rants regarding the media. Ideally, I’d prefer NOT to read ANY of his tweets, but he’s so abhorrent to me, I feel I need to reply just to highlight his and his family’s complete ignorance in EVERYTHING they say and do!
Don’t know about over there but when I’ve several times, one just now, Googled GZ’s name today as I usually do and select news, the only news items coming up from ABC, Fox, CBS, etc. is that GZ’s legal team has skipped the SYG and/or immunity hearing in April. Only the Orlando Sentinal comes up in the news list with DD lied.
Here is the Chicago Tribune…Huffington Post also had it…it is also int he content of SYG immunity articles too.
http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2013/03/trayvon-martins-girlfriends-credibility-is-crumbling.html?cid=6a00d83451b4ba69e2017ee90206ec970d#comment-form
Apologies for the late reply, gbrbsb!
Speaking for myself alone, the ONLY media brought the subject to my attention, however, my research in reading/listening to as much evidence as I could bear along with all the discovery & motions, I truly believe the defendant is guilty as charged. The media no longer plays a part in my decisions, the EVIDENCE does, therefore, the defendant’s brother is tweeting/speaking out of his royal behind! 😀
What the press is doing is chasing something they think will be fun to catch, to divert attention from the fact that a year ago, in early March, a very big lie was exposed (“We have no evidence to disprove his claim of self-defense”) that they still have not had the courage to deal with.
BIG LIE: That RTL was rife with crime (I suspected this, then I discovered this, and I reported this to Frances Robles who held herself out to be an honest journalist, and she ignored it, along with all the other journalists) when Fogen selflessly decided to fight crime by forming and leading the NW group.
BIG LIE: That Fogen solved a lot of crimes.
BIG LIE: That the police did not have probable cause to arrest Fogen.
BIG LIE: That Serino thought it would be best to charge Fogen with accidental homicide.
BIG LIE: That Fogen’s nose was broken.
BIG LIE: That Fogen was terribly injured but chose not to go to the hospital because of money considerations.
BIG LIE: That Tracy Martin said the screams on the 911 tape were not his son’s.
BIG LIE: That Trayvon Martin was on top of FOgen delivering MMA-style punches and witnesses confirmed that.
BIG LIE: That Trayvon Martin was a thug.
BIG LIE: That America’s Black population was threatening to murder Fogen, causing him to need extraordinary security measures.
BIG LIE: That there was a conspiracy to frame poor Fogen.
BIG LIE: That the FDLE charges against Fogen were simply a political move to prevent an angry Black mob from rioting and destroying the American way.
BIG LIE: That DeeDee lied.
Well put!!!!
That’s a whole lot of lying. I guess O’Mara and West have been busy after all.
Another big lie is Fogenhats severe injuries were cured with knuckle bandages LMAO
Or that he is “AFRO PERUVIAN” LMAO yet on all of his Government Identification he claimed to be white, even to his statements to police
Malisha,
I didn’t see your comment before I posted.
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Boom!
I can’t say anything that you haven’t said.
“Now, it should be obvious to everyone that the defense has no case. If the defendant had a legitimate claim of self-defense, the immunity hearing would have happened long ago and the defendant would be a free man.”
I’ve been saying that very same thing since May. Every lawyer I know, says the same thing. I’d have filed a Motion for Immunity as soon as I could. Now look at the evidence…….
Don’t ya just hate when you waive your right to a speedy trial and then the evidence becomes about a mile high…..damn I just hate that !!!!!!!
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How do they dot the “I’s” in skywriting Prof.?
Carefully, son.
Very carefully.
you nailed it perfectly……indeed when it is real “self defense” the law supports not even having a trial, an immunity hearing before a judge where the FACTS are presented to the judge and they then rule on those facts, when it is self defense and shown so in court then NO trial happens and the person has IMMUNITY from prosecution…………that is the OBVIOUS route taken by legitimate claims of self defense……this could have been settled months ago, BUT the problem is omara KNOWS this is NOT self defense in any way and he knows the immunity hearing would require fogen take the stand to present his case and his case has NO merit and would be ripped to shreds in public…….then the trial becomes a mere formality since it was PROVEN before a judge that it was NOT SELF DEFENSE!
I hope you are correct, even more after reading my favorite pro-Z-camp opponent.
Jeralyn Merritt seems to have tasted blood …. It took some time, no link to the hearing yesterday, but she is back with a vengeance.
She offers an elaborate scenario that shifts the burden of proof over to prosecution, while keeping the advantage of an ultimate immunity motion. She even offers an odd recent Florida case, were this strategy was used:
Now. I am sure, O’Mara enjoys the advantage of following in the footsteps of the opposing camp “media-wise”, gives a certain advantage. I am also sure he would like to keep that advantage with the prosecution having to present their case first. At least his recent strategy especially concerning Benjamin Crump, or e.g. FBI files suggests this to me.
The circles citing each other seems small in that context.
My husband and I both suffer from occasional bouts of high blood pressure. One service most Ers and many pharmacies offer is free BP screening. you simply go in, they take your pressure and unless it is dangerously high, you go home. No record is kept. This would undoubtedly be the kind of treatment DeeDee received the day of Trayvon’s funeral. Unless her pressure was high enough to demand immediate hospitalization, there wouldn’t be a record of it.
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