No immunity hearing in Zimmerman case

Tuesday, March 5, 2013

At today’s hearing, Judge Nelson asked Mark O’Mara if he still needed the two weeks she had set aside in April for the defendant’s immunity hearing.

He responded, “No.”

Does this mean that the defendant will be waiving his right to an immunity hearing?

I believe the answer is, “Yes.”

Although O’Mara has previously suggested that the immunity hearing and the trial be combined, I do not believe that makes any sense for the following reasons.

The purpose of the immunity hearing is to determine whether there is any need for a trial. If the judge grants the defendant’s motion for immunity, there is no trial and no jurors need be summoned to come to court. No time has to be reserved for the trial.

There is no reason to have an immunity hearing, unless it takes place before the trial.

The defense goes first in the immunity hearing and has the burden of proving by a preponderance of the evidence that the defendant acted in self-defense, As a practical matter, this means the defendant must testify.

The defense has no burden of proof in the trial. The defendant and the prosecution must go first and the defendant is presumed innocent.

Combining the two hearings would, in effect, deny the presumption of innocence to the defendant and that would be a major constitutional error requiring reversal.

Judge Nelson and BDLR certainly know that.

The judge is not going to go through 2-3 weeks of jury selection if that is not necessary.

Therefore, MOM has in effect waived the immunity hearing.

BOTTOM LINE: The defense cannot risk putting the defendant on the stand at an immunity hearing because of the tsunami of extremely negative publicity that would result from the evisceration of the defendant on cross by the prosecution.

O’Mara does not want to admit that his client is not credible and I can understand why because the physical and forensic evidence refutes everything he says and he has given so many contradictory and inconsistent statements about what happened that with only eight exceptions, no one will believe anything he says.

The eight exceptions are:

1. I got in my truck.

2. I followed him in my truck.

3. He ran.

4. I got out of my truck.

5. Fucking coons (or if you prefer, fucking punks).

6. These assholes, they always get away.

7. Tell the officer (that was dispatched to the neighborhood) to call me on my cell phone when he gets here so that I can tell him where to find me.

8. I shot him (Trayvon Martin).

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449 Responses to No immunity hearing in Zimmerman case

  1. Lonnie Starr says:

    Nothing exculpatory in there. In the end it is going to look like GZ, in a fit of rage, chased and shot a kid, because he felt that black kids were committing crimes.

    Meanwhile, the location of GZ’s weapon makes it unlikely that Trayvon would see it before it was drawn and shown to him, by which time it would be too late for anyone to do anything about it.

    Once it is demonstrated that GZ cannot take the kill shot from the position he claims, any alternative position, without any evidence of contact on Trayvon’s hands, makes Murder 1 seem to be the more appropriate charge. |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

  2. If this has been posted I apologize.

    Looks like the FBI are waiting to pounce on the defendant who killed the victim Trayvon and is staging a self defense claim

    http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/USA%27s%20Objection%20to%20Order%20on%20Amended%20Demand%20for%20Specific%20Discovery.pdf

  3. leander22 says:

    Meralyn officers an interesting scenario judge Debra Nelson should read. Adding a peculiar case, considering ours, that fits her personal take that cases like that usually need two to three years to get to trial.

    Notice not quite aligned with her perspective an MMA style threat, poor Fogen supposedly was subjected to, surfaces in that case too. You have to keep in mind her most relevant and reliable witnesses in the case though in this context. So it may well fit for her.

  4. Really sad state of affairs in U.S. journalism when you have to read The Guardian to get a relatively accurate description of what happened in yesterday’s hearing.

    I say “relatively” because they still erred when they said Witness 8 “testified.”

    • fauxmccoy says:

      fred – i consider the guardian to be my primary source for US news and have since planes hit the twin towers.

    • elcymoo says:

      Professor, I haven’t seen anywhere in either of Witness 8’s depositions a claim that she was unable to attend Trayvon’s funeral because she was in the hospital that day, but every article I’ve seen since yesterday’s hearing refers to that in some fashion.

      I also think that BdlR must have been feigning the ‘bewilderment’ he expressed to reporters after O’Mara waived the immunity hearing in April. If he couldn’t see that coming down the pike as clearly as you and most of us commenters did, maybe I need to re-think my assessment of him.

  5. rnewton32 says:

    I kinda wish there was an immunity hearing. I really wanted Fogen to testify. I still have that fear that he may get away with murder, but if he does, at least Trayvon’s parents can sue him for everything he has in a civil case. leaving him as isolated and broke as CA.

    • Rachael says:

      He doesn’t have anything though.

    • I always hope that the DOJ will charge him with a hate crime
      if he get acquitted in the state charges.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Hi Joseph, I’m thinking on the same level as you are in that respect. these Red Necks seem to think he will be home free at the state level if found not guilty but, with ALL of the evidence that the state has against him, I don’t see that happening.

        But, if by chance it does, they are not looking at the prospect that the Feds will have a go at him and, the sentence for a hate crime can be either life or death. it’s still unrealistic to know that some in this country think he should get away with murdering a child and, we all know why they in their warped minds want to see him get away with his crime. to them a black person’s life means nothing but, to the creator of all life, every life is precious and that even includes these die hard bigoted ignorant folks who are willing to support this murderer only because he killed a black child.

        Had Fogen killed a white child, they would be the first to ready a hangman’s noose in order to lynch the half white half Hispanic. but, from what I have read at other sites, Fogen and his brother are not the bio kids of RZ’Sr. and Gladys is not their birth mother.

  6. type1juve says:

    They would have money for the defense if Fogen would stop eating to excess and doing God knows what else with the donations. I have no pity for anyone who blows through that much money in that short of a period of time. They should be embarrassed to keep bringing it up.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      i do believe they were publicly shamed in the hearing yesterday regarding time/money management issues. 😉

      • racerrodig says:

        Very true, but do you know how many “Pizza Nights” there have been since the last time he talked about money…..then Golden Corral….Chinese take out, and who knows what else.

        For 10 bonus trivia points what is the one thing FogenPhoole says the most …?

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i don’t know racer …. those foods sound like they may be ‘ethnic’ or something. i’m guessing grilled velveeta, greasy burgers and corndogs. 😉

    • Dennis says:

      O’Mara would be better off taking that money to the strip club than letting Fogen waste it on useless security and debts.

  7. elcymoo says:

    Professor, O’Mara says they might ‘go for civil immunity’ after the trial. Is that even possible? I don’t see how. If GZ’s convicted, then he’s clearly liable, and even if he’s found not guilty – so was O.J.Simpson, but the Browns prevailed in the civil suit.

    • I doubt that it’s possible to seek immunity from the judge after a jury acquits a defendant because the court loses jurisdiction over the case and the defendant.

      I think the SYG statute would have to specifically provide for that and it does not.

      • ladystclaire says:

        O’mara should have stayed with being a divorce attorney because, it’s VERY OBVIOUS that he is not a criminal defense attorney. also, I really can’t see a jury ignoring all of the evidence against him and saying not guilty at the end of the trial.

        He killed an innocent child who was doing nothing wrong and, it’s time for him to be held accountable for his criminal actions in this case. this child begged and cried for his life and this lump of NOTHING saw fit to kill him any way. so no, he shouldn’t get away with what he did. he had no reason to call LE on this kid in the first place. he did not own anything at RATL. in fact he was a renter who wasn’t even paying his rent on a regular basis. so who is he to say that Trayvon had no right to walk down the streets in that neighborhood.

        He is guilty of murdering this child and he should be found as such!

  8. Xena says:

    Mark O’Mara’s post-hearing press conference, 3/5/13, courtesy of Trent Sawyer. O’Mara says that the defense fund is in “dire straits.”

  9. colin black says:

    Your welcome Crane an its me with crossed wires thanks Prof.
    But its pointless haveing them together
    Even if it were allowed .

    Now I see what your not ready for prime time means.
    Although I dont think there even ready for a graveyard spot on a local cable tv network.
    Going out from someones moms basemen t at 4 am in the wee hours.
    Are they dundering dolts.

    Or is it a cunning plan to lull the Prosecution into a false sence of security?

  10. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< Empty paw. GZ is going to trial! Hurray! Can't wait for June!

  11. colin black says:

    DD
    That stands for double dann Crane that responce above was meant for you but not the cut an paste .
    That was for the Prof I wondered had he ibadvertantly got his wires crossed as its the Prosecution whom proceades first in a criminal trial.
    Defence follows

    he defense has no burden of proof in the trial. The defendant and the prosecution must go first and the defendant is presumed innocent
    Crane your such a kind soul of course you never messed up
    my post
    Thats my job
    You printed it an got rid of the mistakea to makea that I caused.
    DOH

    Shouldnt the above read the State an the Prosecution must go first.
    As opose the defendandt the prosecution must go first.

    If anyone understands what I mean pls let me know.

    Anyway I had a cut an paste for you crane just fawning an praiseing your awsumeness.

    But the other cut an paste jumped in your spot.

    • I didn’t get my wires crossed. The defense has the burden of proof in the immunity hearing, no presumption of innocence, and has to lead off. In the criminal trial, it’s the other way round and he has the presumption of innocence.

      That’s the main reason why the two hearings cannot be combined.

      The second reason is the statute says they have to be separate with the immunity hearing first, 45 days before trial.

      This is why I say MOM does not want an immunity hearing and it will never happen.

    • Tee says:

      If I’m not mistaken it’s defence first in a self defence case, then the prosecution, then the defence do their redirect.

    • Oh, thank you (((colin)))

  12. Xena says:

    Thinking out loud here about O’Mara not having a separate immunity hearing. O’Mara cannot role the immunity hearing into the trial. It would combine the responsibility of the trier of fact as well as the standards of proof. Combining the trier of fact can prejudice the jury either way.

    Professor, can you address this please?

    • Judge Nelson would be the trier of fact for purposes of the immunity hearing and the jury would be the trier of fact for the trial, which is the way it would be anyway if two hearings were held.

      The problem is that the defense has to go first in the immunity hearing without benefit of the presumption of innocence and prove self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence, but the prosecution has to go first in the trial and prove absence of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

      I don’t see anyway to combine both proceedings in a trial.

      Your strategy changes when you have the burden of proof, particularly for the defense if it has the burden of proof without the presumption of innocence for purposes of one hearing but not for the other.

      That would be a major constitutional error prejudicing the defendant that would virtually guarantee a reversal, if there is a conviction.

      • Xena says:

        @Professor. Thanks for the response. I wonder if the State will file something for the court to address the procedure that O’Mara wants.

      • Jun says:

        This is how I am confused with this

        Even at trial, would not Omara have to prove self defense?

        Because to presume Fogenhats innocent, would mean presuming Trayvon is guilty, would it not?

        I mean even before the hearing is held and there was no evidence presented yet, all that is proven 100% is Fogenhats killed this kid, and alleges it was self defense

        It just sounds like a huge infringement of Trayvon’s constitution if the defense has no burden whatsoever

        • Jun said,

          Even at trial, would not Omara have to prove self defense?

          No.

          The presumption of innocence means he would be presumed to have acted in self-defense and the prosecution would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not.

          Trayvon is dead and has no rights in the trial.

      • Tzar says:

        That is correct Jun
        Zimmerman already admitted that he killed Trayvon, he is already guilty of that
        all the state has to show is that he did not do it in self defense and he was depraved in his actions

      • Jun says:

        Okay, that is a little screwed up because Trayvon was alive when Fogenhats allege those criminal allegations against him, so I do not see why he should not have burden as well, considering the allegations he is making

        In Canada the charter can be challenged, so I was presuming the same is in the states

        Anyways, at the very least, if they provide zero evidence of self defense, than the judge gives the jury no self defense instruction I gather?

      • Jun says:

        I dont know if I like or agree with the dead and no rights thing

        but

        I guess his constitutional rights can be challenged in that the victim should also be deemed free from accusation until proven by the defendant

        • I realize how harsh it sounds for me to say that murder victims have no rights, but it’s the truth and I see no point in sugar-coating it.

          There is one tangential exception, however, that I will mention. A representative of the victim’s family is permitted to testify at sentencing about the impact of the death on the family.

          Crime victims in general are permitted to testify at sentencings regarding the impact of the crime on their lives.

          This type of testimony is called victim-impact testimony.

    • Tzar says:

      Hey Xena
      I need an invite to your private chat
      what do I gotta do?
      it can even be temporary
      just gotta discuss something with one of your pals

  13. colin black says:

    At no point did m o m or west for that matter ever intend on haveing an immunity /self defence hearing.
    Probably strung foggen along with encouragement that the masses would rally .
    An a groundswell of outrage that this decent Merican was being scapegoated for politics an msm newspaper sales.

    And the Black Activists an opertunitists where intent on railroading him .
    To further ther political agendas.
    He was just the inoccent patsy shot the wrong Black child at the wrong time.
    Thats why the masses support you.
    Your there hero you stood up for all that is right an just.
    An dAMMIT 98 INCH FLATSCEEN SUROUND SOUNDS BOUGHT ON A STORE CREDIT CARD .
    iS SOMETHING WORTH DEFENDING.

    At this point is called reality bites an you have to inform your client of his options.
    Wich are limmited.
    Take this case to trial.
    Ask for a plea deal
    Plead Guilty with some heavy duty mittigation introduced to explain why foggen reacted the way he did that fatefull night.
    There another option but I wont discuss it as I wouldnt wish that on anyone includeing my wordt enemy whom at this momment in time is tied betweeen fogen airyass an swamphag.

  14. colin black says:

    The defense has no burden of proof in the trial. The defendant and the prosecution must go first and the defendant is presumed innocent
    Crane your such a kind soul of course you never messed up
    my post
    Thats my job
    You printed it an got rid of the mistakea to makea that I caused.
    DOH..

  15. NEF05 says:

    Was I the only one who thought O’Mara was going to wait until 4/1, jump out and say, “April Fool – no hearing…”

  16. SupremeVictory says:

    “Bernie: Why didn’t you run from Martin when he approached you according to your account?

    Zimm: I don’t understand the question

    Bernie: You took your time going back to your vehicle and you were afraid to reveal your address. You were scared to go back without light.

    Zimm: Yes sir.

    Bernie: So what kept you from retreating or running from Martin when he allegedly approached you from behind?

    Zimm: Umm.. My flashlight. I wanted to call the police.

    Bernie: While Martin was standing in front of you? Aren’t you suppose to be afraid of him? Martin ran away from you when you approached him in your vehicle. Why didn’t you run from him?

    Zimm: ….. I don’t know I, uh

    Still need more time to prepare for the immunity O’Mara?”

    • racerrodig says:

      I’m not sure FogenPhoole will come across as “that intelligent”

    • ladystclaire says:

      This lying murdering POS is just that and, he will pay for his crime. no damn wonder there won’t be an immunity hearing. Bernie will walk on him just like GOD allowed Moses to walk on water. Fogen is nothing but an *OBESE* coward who is nothing without his courage (his gun) and knowing he had his courage with him that night is why he went after a child. there is no way that Fogen would have gone after a black man (ie) Burgess, even with his courage on his person.

    • DO YOUR THING, LLMPapa! DO YOUR THING!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Mr. Knox Sox Fox is just jealous he couldn’t figure out how to use all his technology as well as you used your schoolboy ruler!

    • racerrodig says:

      Is this guy Know kidding ??

    • Check on new posts in about a minute, and thank you. Nice ‘biofidelic’ mannequin, BTW. Head’s the right size and everything.

      #Owned.

      LOL

    • Malisha says:

      Well LLMPapa, there IS one thing you forgot: tiger-paw swipes and roundy-handy-thingies. That trumps inches and millimeters and all like that. Those experty-wessperty AfroPeruvian credible weddible (damn near edible) pronouncements win every time if you add the roundy-handy-thingies and the tiger-paw swipes. So na na na na naaaa naaaa, LLMPapa. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! 😆 :mrgreen:

    • leander22 says:

      Thanks LLMPapa, had not time yet to take a closer look at his argument. But took a fast look and the head issue sticked out.

    • groans says:

      OMG!!! OMG!!! OMG!!! ROFLMAO!!! (This is the first time I have ever used that last abbreviation, BTW.)

      Just when I think you’ve done your best work … YOU KEEP TOPPING IT !!!

      When I heard that smashing glass, I reflexively started singing along with Billy. But then when I caught on to how utterly PERFECT the music was for your message, and how utterly PERFECT your flipping images fit both, and how it ALL was put together in your very logical and clear way – with a huge dose of humor to boot … All I can say is I am IN AWE.

      Truly AWESOME! ((((((standing ovation))))))

      Please, PLEASE, all of you among us who twitter – spread this to everyone (however it is that you all do that) !!! Put that six degrees of separation to work for Justice For Trayvon!!

  17. William Walton says:

    With regards to the forensic expert Knox: I feel that LLMPapa(?)’s demonstration is the most reasonable. However, both use a static demonstration. I do not think what actually happened was static but dynamic. Common sense tells me that TM would not have listened to GZ yelling stand still I am going to shoot you. Therefore, is it possible that a computer program used by forensics exists whereby various scenarios can be dynamically simulated to view the various results. Much like a flight simulator. Just a thought. I am a geo-chemist and geo-engineer and not really computer savy with regards to developing programs. The only University computer course I have taken was a Fortran class in the fall of 1967 and we used IBM punch cards. Much has changed.

    • Jun says:

      The problem with that is

      a) The trajectory

      b) The misalignment of bulletholes with the GSW

      c) Trayvon having no foreign dna whatsoever on his hands, cuffs, and sleeves of his shirt, zero, nada

      d) Trayvon was the only party with debris all over him

      e) Fogenhats has no grass or debris stains on the back of his jacket or pants, after forensic testing

      f) Fogenhats bleeding occurred while upright, otherwise it would not have flown the way it did

      g) Fogenhats’ lacerations were superficial and tiny

      It sounds to me that he had Trayvon subdued and Trayvon froze and could not defend himself, so he tried yelling for help and it sounds like Fogenhats was able to calmly and cooly shoot the kid, with no difficulty whatsoever

      Besides, LLMPAPA’s videos just shows that Knox’s theory is incorrect, that is it, and there is only one way the shot could have been taken

      • William Walton says:

        Jun: the trajectory and misalignment of the bullet holes can be explained by Vector Analysis. Something you might want to look up on the web. Think you might find it interesting. TM had debris all over him because he fell like a 150+ pound piece of lead when shot. Hopefully, this will give you another scenario to think about.

      • pat deadder says:

        i don’t understand why no photos were taken of fogen with his jacket off.I’m starting to sound a little paranoid here but how do we know he had his jacket on at all times.Was DNA done on all his clothing.God I have to go back and read documents it’s been so long.I told people at work I was following this and their comment was similtaneos.” God isn’t he in jail yet”.

      • Tzar says:

        William Walton says:
        March 5, 2013 at 6:57 pm

        the trajectory and misalignment of the bullet holes can be explained by Vector Analysis.

        lolwut???
        what does that even mean? help me out, I took enough physics in college to know that makes no sense

      • Tzar says:

        William Walton says:
        March 5, 2013 at 6:57 pm

        TM had debris all over him because he fell like a 150+ pound piece of lead when shot. Hopefully, this will give you another scenario to think about.

        this sounds even more useless
        and I am not a chemist LMAO

    • NEF05 says:

      Did you write that devolution on fogen and NPD? If you did, it was exceptional. You appear to be a “natural” in the subject. Great reading!

    • pat deadder says:

      But fogen could have said don’t move or I’ll shoot.

      • fogen WANTED to shoot….so many ways it could have been avoided……

        Takes a real sick human ( out of the context of warfare)…..to want to take a human life.

        • racerrodig says:

          It’s probably unlawful to say “Don’t move or I’ll shoot” outside of one’s own house and even then it maybe illegal, unless you are a police officer.

          See, If one could be able to move….that solidifies the fact that either one is far enough away from the other that an “..avenue of escape…” has not been exhausted as is stated in the law.

          • I’ve had trespassers on my property hunting…………3 rounds…..maybe break some branches over their heads…..they get the idea REAL QUICK………

            Especially after climbing a fence along the road with NO TRESPASSING signs all up and down it…

            “Oh…..guess the guys home…..and doesn’t want us here”

          • racerrodig says:

            So what you’re telling me is that you scared them off “legally” and didn’t try to detain them by saying “Don’t move….or…..”

            Yep, I never fired a round to scare anyone off….in NJ !!!!! I’d still be in prison, or said something or turned on outside lights or such.

          • Remember I live in a county of 550 sq mi……and a population of 22,000…….which includes the “big cities” of Cripple Creek & Woodland Park…….

            No crime really……home invasions?……12 ga. coach gun with 00 Buck…..naw……every body on this mountain is safe.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            this bud’s fer you, pat

          • Mornin’ Faux…..7:17AM MST

            This here pickin’s for U…..and it ain’t pickin ur nose 🙂

          • fauxmccoy says:

            thank ye kindly, pat – starting off any day with flatt & scruggs is bound to improve any which shall come afterwards 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            In NJ “Don’t move or I’ll shoot” is unlawful detention. The best thing is say “I’m armed and prepared to defend myself (chick – chick of cycling any weapon) …..I can’t see you yet…..but leave the way you entered”

            There’s a guy who is in prison in NJ who had his house broken into and said “Don’t move a muscle or I’ll blow your brains out” The burglar was charged for forcible entry and the homeowner for more serious stuff. The real issue is that the entire family stated what dad said….should have been………………………………….(silence)

          • cielo62 says:

            Racer- amazing, isn’t it? Either let him escape or kill him. No middle ground. In Texas, if the burglar is on your property, you can detain him at gunpoint Until cops arrive. The burglar has already broken the law so detaining him, by the legal homeowner, is lawful. Beats killing someone. Even if justified, that must fuck with a good person’s mind.

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            There are many thinks I would say in a situation of home defense.

            1) I know who you are and I see what your doing (chick chick)
            2) Oh, look, my magazines full, listen (chick chick – cling)
            3) Oh, geez, my friend XXXXX has you covered from a different
            angle (chick chick)
            4) This new shotgun is really light (chick chick)
            5) My wife called the police a few minutes before I sauntered on
            down (chick chick)
            6) My neighbor see’s you through the sliding door…..he hates
            burglars (chick chick) and he’s a hell of a good shot.
            7) Why not just sit down, stay awhile because you really won’t
            outrun the police. (chick chick)
            8) Is that your car that just got blocked in ? (chick chick)
            9) I’d rather get shot with that piss ant toy you have than my……
            (chick chick)
            10) Was it really worth the risk……you look a bit overweight to be
            making any attempts to run (chick chick) and your fingerprints
            are all over my 56 or 60 inch widescreen….That you Frank ?
            (chick chick)

          • blushedbrown says:

            @Racer

            WOW !!!

          • Race…..2 you left out

            1. The racking of a 12 ga. pump…”Damn…I forgot if this things loaded with bird or buck shot”

            2. The closing of a 12 ga. coach gun followed with the same comment…..

          • racerrodig says:

            I knew you’d have my back……

          • cielo62 says:

            LOL! Ok so if the cops arrive and the thieves are still there, you didn’t necessarily “detain” them, right? What a way to split a hair.

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            Legally correct as I never said “..don’t move, leave, try to escape” or anything to that effect.

            Of course I never said “…you are free to leave…” either. If they are scared of the mere sound of a guin of any type being cocked…then that’s their problem.

          • Even if they did run….and not caught…..I seriously doubt if they would stop back by for another visit…..

          • racerrodig says:

            Yep…..Go Away…………and Stay Away. If they vamous and I can have a clear conscience, we all win.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @MMP, you’re spot on with that one, especially is the life that is taken is that of a child. it’s quite evident that Fogen knew Trayvon was exactly that. even if Trayvon had been a suspect and had taken something that didn’t belong to him, you still have no right to shoot and kill him. this is why we have laws and a judicial system in this country.

        There is no way that Fogen should walk any where except into the prison where he will be assigned to and into his very own private home away from home.

    • Tzar says:

      It is the killer that presents a static demonstration, remember he pinned the kid’s arm, that is static!

    • Tzar says:

      William I have to say you sound like one of them dazzle’em with bullshit fellas, with all due respect of course.

      • groans says:

        You studied some physics? I wish I had. I didn’t know enough to know it back then, but that stuff is fascinating!

        But I suppose it wouldn’t have made any difference if I knew enough way back then to know how fascinating physics is … because I can’t do MATH, so there’s no way I could have understood physics! 😳

        • Physics is simple, relativity speaking.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i found physics to be fascinating and i was one of the few chicks in the class – a good grasp of geometry is even more important than math since you can use a calculator, but you have to know your tangets from your coefficients. i was lucky to have a father who could explain it all and his bro was an engineer who mentored me as well. i was insane enough at 17 to start college as a math major. it might not be surprising that i dropped out 2 years later. however, i cannot stress enough how easy college is after 8 years of real life work experience, the critical thing is to avoid any ‘group projects’ with teens.

      • groans says:

        @Frederick – Good one!

    • groans says:

      @ William: I have no idea what forensics experts use, but you know there is amazing simulation software out there that’s used for all those video games as well as TV and movies – and even TV commercials!

      Wouldn’t it be a BLAST to have software like that? I’d probably never leave my computer if I had something like that to play with!!

      I also don’t know what you refer to as “vector analysis.” In my world, such a thing would pertain to studying how INFECTIONS might spread! But you obviously mean something else, so I’ll definitely Goggle it.

      So … I’m no help at all, but I want to thank you for stimulating my imagination tonight! 😆

      • William Walton says:

        Groans: Unlike Tzar who says he took physics in college but shows that he did not since he has no understanding of vector analysis which is taught in the first two semesters of Physics, you make sense in asking the question you asked. Vector Analysis relates to forces occurring at an angle from each other. In relation to the shooting of TM, there was tertiary vectors and the angles affecting these vectors. Vector 1 TM pulling away from GZ creating Angle 1, Vector 2. GZ pulling TM toward him creating angle 2, and Vector 3 the bullet fired into TM creating angle 3. It should be kept in mind that these vectors were most likely occurring in a dynamic situation.

      • racerrodig says:

        This is the “Vector Analysis” he refers to. Actually this has more relevance than what he speaks of.

      • groans says:

        @ William: Uh oh. Angles? I somehow made it through 10th grade geometry (not sure how), and never looked back. Memorizing those theorems and whatever was not my thing. Now, algebra was a little better, I must admit – what with all those airplanes leaving NY and trains leaving LA.

        But I’m definitely more of a research (of words) and writing type. So I’d better stick with my familiar vectors, like ticks and mosquitoes! 🙂

        @ Racer: Very funny! But I gotta say, I would not have “gotten” it at all before William’s brief “vector” lesson preceding it!

      • Tzar says:

        William Walton says:
        March 5, 2013 at 11:30 pm

        Groans: Unlike Tzar who says he took physics in college but shows that he did not since he has no understanding of vector analysis which is taught in the first two semesters of Physics, you make sense in asking the question you asked. Vector Analysis relates to forces occurring at an angle from each other. In relation to the shooting of TM, there was tertiary vectors and the angles affecting these vectors. Vector 1 TM pulling away from GZ creating Angle 1, Vector 2. GZ pulling TM toward him creating angle 2, and Vector 3 the bullet fired into TM creating angle 3. It should be kept in mind that these vectors were most likely occurring in a dynamic situation

        I liked the part where you said “dynamic”….it sounds like you know what you are talking about

  18. Jun says:

    Wouldn’t Fogen also have to take the stand at trial?

    From the looks of it, he is the only party claiming it is self defense and all that other nonsense he claimed, which is provable to be lies

    Junior and anyone else, whatever they say is irrelevant, because neither of them were there and they can not be objective and truthful regarding their testimony, so at most they can provide character evidence

  19. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    GZ is really a disturbed person. How you can shoot a child and justify yourself is completely sickening. As they say when the government or state comes after you good luck… They do have the unlimited resources. Hopefully this person will get the mental help he needs..soon.. He does have a eating disorder along with a mental disorder. George you can not eat your way out of this… get in shape because in jail you are going to need it to fight off those you have offended by your actions. No guns allowed fist only…

    • Dan Q. Smith says:

      No cure for homicidal sociopaths. He should be in prison or the state mental hospital. Otherwise, none of us is (i.e. society is not) safe. I don’t believe in the death penalty. This case reinforced my lack of belief in it as of course one thinks about this sort of thing.

      MOM is acting like a child. I feel almost as if he’s threatening the judge with the possibility he won’t be ready. WTF?

      • @Dan:

        Fogen is definitely a mentally unstable individual. I thought that from day one. I could see it when he spoke. There is some cognitive deficits at play here as well. He is not right in the head, and he appears slow to me. I wonder if he was in special classes when he was in school and ir he was diagnosed as emotionally disturbed way back when?

        Also, someone on this board mentioned that his “daddy” and ‘mom” were not his natural parents nor are they the parents of RZ Jr. either? Who are his natural parents and did they adopt him within the family? Does anyone on here know any of this history?

        • racerrodig says:

          As Rita Rudner’s punchline went “….did you go to school on a long bus…….or a short bus”

          My neighbor is a psychologist and we talk about this from time to time. In his professional opinion, well, lets just say Fogen has some real diagnosable issues, many, many, many issues.

          • @Racerrodig:

            I agree. A psychiatrist that I work with stated that from what she can view, and from what she has read, she can see that the man has some emotional and mental difficulties. His anger and rage issues, emotional difficulties, not being able to support himself, having his dad and mom pay his rent on his own. his attending CC for 8 years, and not ever graduating, graduating from HS at the bottom of his class as someone reported on here yesterday…….their is just oomething else going on here with his guy. HIs molesting his cousin at age 8?? Who molested him is my question, then their is Shellie. There is definitely something going on with her mental abilities as well. Anyone of us could pick up on Fogen’s mental instability. Why couldn’t she?

          • racerrodig says:

            Yep, my guy thinks he has an IQ under 85 and average is between 90 & 115. I have also read that 90 is not exactly “average” Fogen may think he’s smarter than everyone because for years he got that “…sure, whatever you say dude..” response and never realized that was an insult. Having someone else take that one year prison hit probably went a long way in enabling his aberrant behavior to keep developing.

            Reading between the lines of his MySpace page it seems like he has no “normal” friends, or at least what I would allow as a friend.

            The one who fits the “Thug” area is FogenPhoole and friends.

          • Xena says:

            @Deborah. When I was a little girl, on Saturday evenings, my mom would start preparing Sunday dinner. Usually, it was whatever she was baking and then there was meat that she boiled for vegetables. On Sundays when we came home from church, it didn’t take her long to finish dinner and those were the days before microwaves.

            When I became an adult, married, had my son, attended college and worked full-time, I kept the Saturday evening tradition and prepared enough so there would be left-overs for Monday. That pattern pretty much followed the remainder of the week with cooking one day with left-overs the next.

            So, when I heard GZ say that they cooked on Sunday evenings “for the week,” it sounded very wrong Here’s a couple with no children. ShelLIE was unemployed and a stay-at-home pretend student. What on earth was she cooking “for the week” that could be cooked after 7 p.m. on Sunday evenings, finished, and kept fresh for the week?

          • racerrodig says:

            It is impossible to apply any logic to these illogical minds.

          • blushedbrown says:

            @Xena

            We did basically the same thing. “NaNa” would get us off to church in the morning, and by the time we came back from church, supper was ready. She made enough for leftovers just for Monday. In my life experiences, I would prepare for the next day’s meal, but not a week in advance. I found myself saying what an extremely odd thing to say. Nobody really prepares a whole week of meals. From Osterman’s book he states that Shellie, would shop for herself, because she like breakfast foods. I found that odd also.

            I know exactly what my hubby likes and don’t like to eat.

            After 5 years of those two being married this should have been known to each other. My second thought to that statement of them shopping separately for the things they like, was you buy your own stuff, I’ll buy mine. I think they keep their money separated, and Osterman called him thrifty. I think Osterman was calling Ole’ George a cheapo and used thrifty to be nice. JMO

          • In fogens world “thrifty” equals DEADBEAT

          • blushedbrown says:

            @MMP

            Exactamundo

          • Xena says:

            @blushedbrown

            In my life experiences, I would prepare for the next day’s meal, but not a week in advance. I found myself saying what an extremely odd thing to say.

            Yes, extremely odd. Unemployed ShelLIE had all day to prepare meals. They were not juggling two full-time jobs with school and children.

  20. groans says:

    Question: Where is the law about an immunity hearing having to be 45 days before trial, please?

    I haven’t seen where a time frame has been established other than “before trial.” I know that Judge Nelson’s order says it must be (completed?) 45 days before trial, but I’m thinking they agreed to that time frame for THIS case during one of the earlier hearings.

    Thanks in advance.

    • Tzar says:

      http://www.floridabar.org/TFB/TFBResources.nsf/0/BDFE1551AD291A3F85256B29004BF892/$FILE/Criminal.pdf

      look here as hard as my non-lawyer self could but did not find it. I believe the professor mentioned it in the previous thread and I was parroting him (hopefully not erroneously). Maybe he can answer.

      However, I don’t see how you can spend the money and time to sit a jury only to send them home because of an acquittal at the immediately preceding immunity hearing.

      Trials have to be scheduled, jury selection takes time so it only makes sense that an immunity hearing which may void the need for a jury trial be temporally separated from said trial.

      • groans says:

        I totally agree with you.

        But I can’t find much at all about procedure, and am thinking the legislature didn’t give it any thought – just left it to the courts to figure out how to make it happen. But that can be a slow process.

  21. willisnewton says:

    The whole “rolling in to the trial” illusion may play out like this: Come June, absent a motion from the defense to formally waive an immunity hearing, the judge will seat a jury and then turn to the defense and say, your client has a right to an immunity hearing. Do you wish one at this time? And MoM will say, no, your honor we do not.

    And then the trial will start.

    Because I think that until the defense FORMALLY waives the right to have an immunity hearing, technically they are ENTITLED to one. MoM is just “whistling past the graveyard” as they say, trying to save face as long as he can.

    This gives cover to the defense’s fanboy / donors that there is still hope that GZ will get immunity and no trial. But of course that isn’t what happens in the reality-based world.

    MoM has to be given credit for realizing he can say whatever he wants to the press and that they will take him at face value. He also realizes his potential donors live in a non-reality based environment and so long as they have a fig leaf to cover themselves will claim they are wearing the emperor’s new clothes and that all is well in “Shoot-Your-Gun” land. I really do think he’s doing a good job of defending a defenseless person who lacks all credibility. IMO He’ll lose in the end but seems determined to keep up the illusion for as long as he can.

    • Tzar says:

      the judge will seat a jury and then turn to the defense and say, your client has a right to an immunity hearing. Do you wish one at this time? And MoM will say, no, your honor we do not.

      And then the trial will start.

      not gonna work according to statute hearing must be 45 days before trial
      you don’t set up a trial and then toss out a call for an immunity hearing
      they are gonna have to commit!
      MOM practically waived it today because…. you know…. George thinks it will be better for society

  22. Oh, dear. Fred is out on an errand, and I see something strange above in the thread. I will try to go in and fix it. Bear with me for a moment, okay?

  23. KA says:

    Professor,

    How will this trial go if GZ does not take the stand?

    I think I agree that he will not, hence no immunity hearing.

  24. colin black says:

    Sorry to hog chat as I havent even read the Article yet.
    But if possable to erase all the stuff below mine an Xenas posts.
    PS It all right as I have Xenas permission to plaugerise her.

  25. colin black says:

    London Bus Stylee.

    None for ages then a convoy of 4 turns up.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      must be universal – that happens in san francisco too and all 4 of the busses are packed to the gills with no room to breathe.

      as far as the above post, i suspect wordpress glitch, we have seen enough of them lately, no?

  26. colin black says:

    ERM have no idea what has ocoured above an no Toerag exceptin myself to blame.

    I wrote that for the previous article on DD.
    Posted it on the live hearing by mistake.
    So cut an pasted to but on right thread wich I thought most current.
    Didnt realise you had wrote another London Bus sylee.

    But all that other stuff below my post?
    I havent a clue where it came from
    I couldnt cut an paste something that long if I tried?

  27. colin black says:

    Reply

    colin black says:

    March 5, 2013 at 2:06 pm

    im no expert on American Law
    But I remember some from Florida re wittneses giveing depos.

    And was under the impression that as long as the person being deposed is within the State of Florida.
    Wich we can assume witt 8 was even though it apeared to be over the phone.

    So the deposee wit 8 was in Florida Miami probably.

    Not sure how the law or statute is worded but I will try my best to summarise.
    Basicly the wittnes being deposed is given short term immunity from prosecution pertaining to any info they may divulge dureing this hearing an any info re to a crime or prjurous act.
    CANNOT be used against them at any future prosecutions ect pertaing to any offences disscussed dureing the takeing of the depo.

    This is a curtasy offer made to alll people being deposed wthin the state of Florida.
    I remember the inerweb went mental with the rumour that Lee Anthony had been given immunit before his depo an blah blah must be summit affot.

    When it was just standard proseadure.
    However if the person being deposed is not within the State of Florida .
    Say being deposed by phone an skype from N York or antwher thats not Florida this curisie does not apply.

    Thats why that crazy chick Laura Buchanan.
    Alligator stommpin intrepid volanteer searcher.
    Whom was only in Orlando for three days.
    An spotted a live Caylee at Disneyland an phoned in her sighting to tip line.
    Next day voulanteered for eqa search claimed to be LE but wasnt.
    Also like foggen she was packing a gun as she had a ccp.

    So on her one eventfull day searching she wrasted with alligaters an searched the EXACT SPOT where precious wee Caylee would later be found.Or what was left of her.
    She returned home to N York an mnths later when the remains were found.Amist a flurry of call between her an sindy an Baez an a PI.
    She had kept hold of her eqeasearch docs .

    Supposed to be handed in at end of day but she ws pretend LE an rules differnt for her.She contemporaniously altered them to look like they where in the area photo copied them an gave them to Baezs PI.

    When first deposed via skype from out of state the immunity clause didint apply.
    An when J Ashton started demanding to see originals ect.
    An got her to admitt she altered them later on as things came back to her.
    Her attorney quickly stepped in an stopped the depo realiseing his client was about to start digging.
    So he arranged for the depo to be re scheduled with L Buchcanan apearing in person in State in Florida to take advantige of the immunity clause.
    An she admitted lieing falsefiying official docs the whole nine yards .
    And she was never charged with anything.

    So given that even if wit 8 did lie dureing dep then shes exempt from that being used as evidence.An without that theres no evidence means no case.

    Reply

    Xena says:

    March 5, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    I’ve been out moving snow away from my back door and missed everything.

    Catching up.

    • Hello, CS here on Fred’s screen just briefly. I removed what appeared to be a glitch issue where a list of categories from the site was somehow in the comment. I hope I did this right! Fred is briefly out on an errand. I will sign off of his screen now. Thank you for your patience.

  28. Big Willie says:

    Why was West asking for public info and complaining about not enough time to prepare? Has West not heard of Google… I can find anyone, their familiy members w/addresses, their friends, phone numbers and criminal history for $1.49, in 5 minutes or less.

    I swear West and MOM puts me to sleep. The guy from FDLE was smooth as butter and sharp as a knife! The only thing left to do was pull out his whip and smack MOM & West and say, “now take that!”.

    • towerflower says:

      Not to mention the $24 for a criminal background check that the FDLE offers. I found it odd that they want GZ’s complete bio, after all hasn’t GZ told them what they needed to know about his past?

      • elcymoo says:

        @towerflower: GZ is very duplicitious, so he may not have told his attorneys everything about his past, but I suspect that the defense team was just fishing to try to find out how much the prosecution knew about it.

      • blushedbrown says:

        @towerflower

        You know what was funny, after he said that, a few minutes later West got up and said they are short on time and money. I think that is why the snicker came from the gallery.

    • KittySP says:

      @BW. What I found ridiculous about that whole exchange when the judge asked West the relevancy in obtaining witnesses known associates…he replied “he wasn’t really sure either…but they needed the info to find out”…”maybe there was someone from a witnesses past that could attest to their credibility”.

      Are you freaking serious! Who comes up with this mess?!

      • KittySP says:

        @blushed. They’re short on time and money cuz of foolishness such as today’s hearing for BS motions.

      • towerflower says:

        Who doesn’t have someone in their past or association with that might have a questionable past? My former brother-in-law, at one time the go to guy, love by all, and my son’s godfather is now a drug addicted alcoholic. What would any of those things have to do with any witness’s statement?

        • Xena says:

          What would they think of me if discovering that I knew and was mentored in investigative journalism by Sherman Skolnick?

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          Let’s say your former BIL is going to be a witness in some trial for one side or the other and his present difficulties are not widely known.

          Might the side not expecting to benefit from his testimony want to see if there were anyone, say such as yourself, to clue them into whether or not he was as upstanding a citizen as he was being presented as being?

          Without some background info on him, how would they find you or even know to look for you?

          Now, suppose it were someone else’s ex-BIL entirely, someone unknown to you, and that it is you on trial.

          Wouldn’t you want your defense team to be able to find out if there’s anything that would let them challenge him as a reliable witness?

          This is all presupposing for the sake of argument that your ex-BIL’s current problems affect his veracity, which I have no way of knowing.

          unitron

  29. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    Has anyone heard about Sherri his wife?
    What ever happened to Zimmermans great security issues? Did they quit?

  30. EveryoneIsEntitledToTheirOpinion says:

    GZ needs to admit to murder… He is toast anyway!!

  31. Xena says:

    I get the feeling that GZ has told O’Mara that there is no way he is taking the stand, and O’Mara is trying to work as best he can with GZ’s demands. Like with his dad, brother, Taaffe, and Oliver, GZ wants others to talk for him. However, none of them were there to witness anything between GZ and Trayvon.

    • KA says:

      I am interested in opinions on what this trial will look like if GZ takes the fifth which I suspect he will.

      • roderick2012 says:

        if GZ takes the fifth which I suspect he will.

        Is your scenario that George takes the stand but pleads the fifth on cross-exam?

        I believe it would look better if he doesn’t take the stand at all.

        There’s no way that a jury will be able to do anything other than assume he is refusing to answer those questions because he is guilty and how long do you think it would before the jurors become really annoyed at George when George pleads the fifth everytime Bernie asking George questions?

        And there would be nothing to stop Bernie from cross-examining George for days on end even if he refuses to answer.

        • If the defendant testifies on direct, but refuses to submit to cross examination by the prosecutor, the judge will order his testimony on direct stricken and will instruct the jury to disregard everything he said.

          He has no 5th Amendment right to refuse to answer questions asked on cross about answers he gave on direct.

      • KA says:

        I guess I was asking that if Zimmerman does not speak either by pleading the fifth or by not taking the stand?

        It would be strange to me for a defendant to claim self defense and either take the fifth or not take the stand.

      • racerrodig says:

        He better “bring a 5th” if he takes the 5th because he won’t be able to handle reality without it….a few 5th’s maybe.

        • A half a “fifth” and I’m good to go…….

          stumbling and falling as I go…. 😦

          Even tho it was over 30 years ago….imagine sitting in a bar and being handed a business card….

          “YOU HAVE JUST BEEN 86ed….LEAVE QUIETLY AND NO ONE WILL KNOW”

          Damn glad I survived my “young age” and am still around to enjoy my old age……

        • fauxmccoy says:

          nice, racer 😉

          • I’m down for a few “fifths”…..one down….and how many more to go?

            Damn I love Canadian whiskey

          • fauxmccoy says:

            on a rare occasion, i’ll take a shot of maker’s mark – neat and enjoy it very much. i don’t even miss the ‘good old days’ where i could drink on other dudes’ dimes all night at some dance club and somehow manage to get my sorry ass to work the next day. all i can say is being single in san francisco in the 80s was a blast.

          • racerrodig says:

            Reality……it’s a gas !!

      • roderick2012 says:

        Frederick Leatherman says:If the defendant testifies on direct, but refuses to submit to cross examination by the prosecutor, the judge will order his testimony on direct stricken and will instruct the jury to disregard everything he said.

        The problem with that is the jurors will have already heard that and humans aren’t computers so we can’t just erase our hard drives.

        • I have been in many federal trials where judges have instructed jurors to disregard certain evidence and they have. You see that come up often in multiple-defendant conspiracy trials where judges will instruct them that they can consider evidence A against one defendant but no others and evidence B against 3 defendants but no others, etc.

          The effect of instructing a jury to disregard the defendant’s testimony is pretty close to a directed verdict of guilty and no defendant with any sense whatsoever would risk that.

          If do not doubt that if GZ did that, he would be convicted.

        • racerrodig says:

          “The problem with that is the jurors will have already heard that and humans aren’t computers so we can’t just erase our hard drives.”

          As true as that is, his story is so lame and the evidence destroys it so completely, I believe the “Delete” button will in fact work.

      • Jun says:

        Roderick

        even take it from someone who is not a lawyer like me

        To have a weighed testimony, and not considered hearsay, the US says that the testimony must come straight from the source and be submitted to be under oath and cross examination

        On top, Fogenhats’ testimony does not fall under any hearsay exceptions, with the exception of his NEN call, which are all excited utterances and present sense impressions

        So if Fogenhats only submits under oath but no cross examination, it has not past the hearsay test, therefore, his testimony is not credible, therefore, it can not be weighed

    • boyd says:

      George is dumb ,I heard he was in e the bottom 10% of his high school class ater that information accidently got out.

      O’Mara will never let him take the stand. O’mara is hoping for a Casey Anthony jury

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “George is dumb ,I heard he was in e the bottom 10% of his high school class ater that information accidently got out.”

        I’m surprised you didn’t call him a moran.

        unitron

        • cielo62 says:

          unitron~ “I’m surprised you didn’t call him a moran. unitron” Nah, we reserve that for you and your snide remarks.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            If you’re going to insult someone else’s intelligence and not even bother to proofread the sentence in which you do it, while misspelling two words, you really do leave yourself wide open for well-deserved ridicule (including a reference to a classic political gaffe).

            unitron

          • So Unitron……What exactly is a “moran” to quote you?

            A typo or?

          • racerrodig says:

            Thank You tron does not rate the sweat off my XXXX”s because he’s one of these..

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

            and the back wall of my shop holds a better conversation.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            A rather widely published photo of a Tea Partier at a political event a few years back with a home-made sign where he attempted, apparently, to refer to those he opposed as morons, and made what might be termed a moronic spelling error.

            Since then it’s sort of become shorthand for being hoist with, by, or on your own petard when calling into question the intellect of others.

            It was about the same time as they were saying “Keep your government hands off of my Medicare”.

            unitron

          • racerrodig says:

            Thank You !!

      • IIRC he was 307 out of a class of 312……

        So there are 5 people we know of more stupid than fogen.

        • racerrodig says:

          “IIRC he was 307 out of a class of 312……” which is correct.

          He may not have even been that smart, considering the probability that he cheated on his tests is what …………..about 100%

      • Malisha says:

        Unitron, most of us who read and comment here have grown accustomed to the idea that we, and our colleagues on-line, make mistakes. Sometimes we catch our errors and correct them before hitting “post comment”; sometimes we don’t. At times some of us may cringe when we see that a really noticeable error has escaped our monitors. But none of us really feels that we have done something atrocious, such as getting ourselves wrapped up in our fantasies of heroism and admiration-celebrity status to such a degree that we profile, chase, slander, terrorize, victimize and murder a kid we have never met and who has done nothing to deserve such treatment (as if there COULD be anything he had done to deserve being murdered).

        Most of us also feel very aggrieved that our government, the federal government, has paid tax dollars, OUR tax dollars, to support a system of state governments that deal with crime in such a way as to cover up criminal activities on the part of people who have somehow achieved “immunity from prosecution” should they choose to murder someone of a despised and/or discriminated-against social or racial group. We feel aggrieved that someone like Fogen felt not only entitled but SAFE in lying about his having cavalierly committed a murder, that he felt that he could get away with saying things so stupid that no rational, moderately intelligent, non-racist, non-corrupt cop would ever have believed them. We feel outraged that stupid lies such as “He said ‘what the fuck’s your problem homie?’ and he punched me in the nose and I fell down” were allegedly believed [and let’s admit that the cops never believed that for a minute; they just PRETENDED they did so they could give Fogen a “walk” for the murder of someone they were happy to see dead].

        WE IDENTIFY THESE STATEMENTS AS STUPID LIES.

        Therefore we feel entitled to point out the stupidity of the teller of these lies, just as we feel entitled to point out the stupidity and dishonesty of the alleged believers of these stupid lies.

        So we revel in the information that Fogen is actually as stupid as he seems.

        I THINK THAT’S O.K. even on the part of someone whose spelling and grammar are imperfect.

        Fogen is a stupid criminal. If I didn’t spell that right, so be it.

      • PYorck says:

        His explanation on moran is made up by the way.

        What is so wrong with that explanation?

        http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/get-a-brain-morans

      • boyd says:

        oh sorry for the spellling, I type fast and without my glasses a lot..

        but come on, stay in the car and don’t tell me the 911 operator directed you to GET OUT OF THE CAR AND LOOK AROUND. if he truly beleives that then HE IS DUMB! Or should I say “would you have interpreted the 911 operator as instructing you to get out of the car?”

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          If that question were truly directed at Zimmerman, and he was aware of it, he’d probably point out what he’s been pointing out all along, that it was not a 911 call, that he dialed the 7 digit non-emergency number to the police department.

          unitron

      • boyd says:

        So he called the NEN number for a gunshot victum? I am confused here by this NEN vs 911 when you have a shot person.
        Since GZ thought the cops were coming his NEN call was the same as a 911 call for an ambulance.

        I beleive GZ told 2 witnesses don’t bother calling 911 I called the cops. Thankfully SMARTER people called to inform police they had a shooting here. GZ was NOT going to do it, the NEN number was sufficent for the shot teenager. That could be seen as depraved indifference.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          Perhaps I am mistaken, but

          “but come on, stay in the car and don’t tell me the 911 operator directed you to GET OUT OF THE CAR AND LOOK AROUND. if he truly beleives that then HE IS DUMB! Or should I say “would you have interpreted the 911 operator as instructing you to get out of the car?”

          certainly sounded as though you were referring to the call which began at 7:09:34 PM “Sanford Police Department, this line is being recorded, this is Sean” and continued with Zimmerman starting in about how they’d had some break ins and the best address he could give them was…

          A call which ended 2 or 3 minutes before the gun shot.

          If there’s any record of Zimmerman telephoning either the police or 911 after the gun shot, there’s been no public mention of it.

          unitron

      • boyd says:

        you are not mistaken. I am confused about the difference between NEN and 911 in George’s mind. I Never heard of NEN until this case.

        now why am I confused is that George said he called police when 1 or 2 witnesses asked what’s going on. I am asuuming this is the NEN mumber. But after a gunshot the NEN call is moot, they’re not bringing out an amubulance. I do not undertand why George felt the NEN call would suffice for a gunshot ivictum. But I aslo think George is not as bright as he thinks he is. so go figure.

        On the Police tapes the cops referred to George’s call as a 911 call, George corrected them said it was NEN as you did., .

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “I do not undertand why George felt the NEN call would suffice for a gunshot ivictum.”

          Yeah, a lot of us wonder about that.

          No matter if the shooting was justified or not, his actions afterwards need a lot of explaining.

          unitron

        • Xena says:

          @boyd Trying to figure out GZ’s reasoning is what is confusing. He called the police non-emergency number to report “These assholes. They always get away” which means he did not see a suspected criminal acting “suspicious” as an emergency.

          While purportedly yelling for help while getting a can of whip-ass opened on him, he tells a resident not to call 911 because he has called it already but rather, help him restrain the guy.

        • racerrodig says:

          In the beginning everyone except unitron called it a 911 call. In fact Fogen and everyone in the media did as did his dad and brother.
          NEN is “Non Emergency Number” and it wasn’t until later that that was cleared up.

          Those of us who are not condescending trolls understand what you mean, it’s no big deal. I made a bet with a customer of mine that tron would make a big condescending deal about the 911 vs NEN call. He won me$5.00.

          Most of us ignore his antics. See if this matches his shtick …

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

          So far it’s unanimous that it does. Consider the source, that’s all.

          • unit ron does make some good comments / observations at times…..

            For the most part I believe he pictures himself as an uber intelligent….I see him as an argumentative ass….IMO.

          • racerrodig says:

            “unit ron does make some good comments / observations at times”

            “…at times…” could you amend that to end with the word “observations” making it an accurate statement. You know we all like to be 100% accurate here of tron will take your post apart.

          • Race…..U think I could really give a XXXX what he picks apart?

            BTW…I HAVE PICKED the handle for your back scratcher 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            1) Probably not, it was just an observation and you know me, accuracy counts.

            2) Way Kool…..tell me no details, I like surprises. When you’re finished, send me the bill or let me know and I’ll go on your site and make payment as promptly as possible !!

            You, as we say, are Da Man !!!

          • cielo62 says:

            MMP- LOL! Argumentative Unit.

            Sent from my iPod

          • @Racerrodig:

            Troll? When I first heard the word troll and read the dfinition Racer, I said to myself, personally, I like my own word better: FOOL! A$$W$%#! Get my drift? Some people cannot debate or post as a civilized individual. They must always be right or start some kind of trouble with others. They are like that in their personal lives as well!

          • racerrodig says:

            God I love you !!!!!! I know it’s not just me who see’s that crap.

            Millions can’t be wrong !!

          • cielo62 says:

            Racer- “Millions can’t be wrong” you said but that’s not so. Have you forgotten our recent election? 🙂

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            Election…..? which one ??

          • cielo62 says:

            Racer- on a national level. No matter who you voted for, it was close enough to see that millions were “wrong”!

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            OK I thought you meant everyone was wrong…..My Bad !

          • racerrodig says:

            I’ll add that I think boyd is fairly new here and does not know about tron’s baiting, condescending filth. boyd deserves to know that real members of “Team Trayvon” have each others back. I’m still waiting for him to actually admit FogenPhoole did something, anything “wrong”

          • @Racerrodig: Team Trayvon forever! Racists, will never admit that tehy are wrong. They know that the “Afro-Pervian” is guilty. They know that Tray, never did anything wrong. They only see that Tray was black, and black+criminal in the racist and ignorant mind of the racist. They will continue to attack the black child and his supporters even after Fogen is found GUILTY!

            If their is one “good” thing to come out of this tragedy, is that I have made so many good friends. Friends who write me, some even call me. We have gotten close and it has shown me that their are some wonderful people in this world who love and care about one another and we don’t care what color you are! I have also gotten so very close to my own kids. I imagine the pain of Sister Sybrina and Brother Tracy, and I know how much they must hurt. I never want to lose my kids before I pass from this earth. I would kill me literally. I have told my kids to continue to write to the State of Florida and to make sure that Fogen never gets released, if he is convicted of this crime, and I am gone from this earth. Fogen is a dangerous man. He is mentally unstable and he needs help, but he won’t admit it, and his family does nothing to help him. Peace! To bed I go. I had a long day today Racer!

          • racerrodig says:

            Very well said. I can’t wait until after the trial when they say the Judge and jury are biased. Long Live Bias !!

            Afro – Peruvian…..Gotta love that pile of stufffffffffff !!

          • As fogen will have a lot of time on his hands after his conviction…….

            Maybe he can work to start an Afro / Peruvian history month?

          • racerrodig says:

            Hmmmm Afro – Peruvian history…..and I guess all 5 Afro – Peruvians will go ga – ga over it.

          • blushedbrown says:

            @MMP

            Ha!

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            “In fact Fogen and everyone in the media did as did his dad and brother.”

            Go listen to the very first post shooting interviews of him at the police station.

            He says from the beginning that he called the NEN number and corrects anyone who says different.

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @onlyiamunitron

            He says from the beginning that he called the NEN number and corrects anyone who says different.

            True, but it conflicts with the content of his NEN call, which was, “These assholes. They always get away.”

            Since the cops did not see an importance in distinguishing 911 from NEN, why should we argue about it when someone uses 911 in a comment?

          • racerrodig says:

            The only class he passed was “Majoring in the Minors”

            He’ll never get it……..Never.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            It’s what is, or at least should be, called the Moynihan doctrine:

            Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, but they’re not entitled to their own facts.

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @onlyiamunitron

            Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, but they’re not entitled to their own facts.

            Are you saying the cops who said GZ called 911 were expressing an opinion?

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            I’m saying that they made an error of fact, the perpetuation of which serves no good purpose.

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @onlyiamunitron

            I’m saying that they made an error of fact, the perpetuation of which serves no good purpose.

            GZ called the SPD. The only difference I can tell between a SPD non emergency call and 911 call is that the dispatcher does not ask if the emergency is police, fire or medical.

            Again, the content and context of GZ’s NEN call does not agree with it being a non-emergency. Not only did he say “These assholes. They always get away.” He also said at one point to “Hurry up and get an officer over here.” Any police officer, investigator or detective hearing the content of GZ’s call would presume that he had called 911.

            I don’t see why you’re making such a big deal of it.

          • racerrodig says:

            Lets just all proclaim “The Mighty King Has Spoken” and move on.

            He proves our collective point with every post. Textbook trolling it is.

          • “king”?……LMAO 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Small “k” it is then !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

          • Race….if you notice in my posts & comments……..I never put someone I don’t respect name starting with a capital…..You’ve never seen a post of mine referring to fogen with a capital “F”..

            Just a little quirk of mine…

          • racerrodig says:

            I can dig that. We all have our own thing. But really I don’t know what HIS deal is. Actually I do….

          • cielo62 says:

            Racer and MMP – “King” is accurate, since he IS a royal pain.

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            For someone who claims to discuss the case, he never does. He simply plays the “I’m right and your wrong” game and the “…you spelled (insert word here) wrong” game. Except he uses 5 preposterous, boring, inane, self serving, condescending paragraphs to do it. I can tell him how most of us feel in 2 words.

            “Bite Me!!!!”

          • We still talkin’ ’bout snakes?

          • racerrodig says:

            You noticed that !!

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            Because when people start getting the established, documented, knowable facts about this case wrong, that’s the one with which they start.

            unitron

          • Xena says:

            @onlyiamunitron

            Because when people start getting the established, documented, knowable facts about this case wrong, that’s the one with which they start.

            You continue side-stepping what I presented about the content and context of GZ’s call. GZ called the cops. In that call, he said “These assholes. They always get awa.” and also, “Hurry up and get an officer over here.”

          • racerrodig says:

            As we all know they all said it at one point. From Fogen on down…at least once.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig

            As we all know they all said it at one point. From Fogen on down…at least once.

            On Youtube, we find videos titled “911 call” not “NEN call.” I simply don’t know why it was so important to for unitron to correct someone for saying “911” especially in light of hearing GZ posture it as an emergency.

          • An “I’m right…..you’re wrong” complex, no doubt due to his superior intellect……..being argumentative over minor issues….I could say more…..

          • Xena says:

            @MMPat. This all started because someone posted 911 instead of NEN. (sigh)

          • racerrodig says:

            You can say more…..I’m all ears….er, eyes that is.

          • racerrodig says:

            You can’t spell a word wrong with him. Petty…..

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @unitron – you must know that you generally have my support around here. i suspect you set high standards for yourself and would be much more comfortable if those around you did the same. unfortunately, we can only control our own thoughts or writings. i tend to give a lot of slack for any statement which is not materially false and allow others to express their thoughts how they see fit.

            in regards to calls made to 911 or NEN, i see it is a distinction without meaningful difference. for example, when i was general manager of a natural foods store, i maintained very good relations with my local police force, there were many times i needed their assistance. in doing so, i often had to make the decision as to whether to pick up the nearest phone and dial 911 or run upstairs to my office, check my rolodex and dial the NEN. in either case however, the end result was the same — the police were notified and either escalated the issue or not, as they saw fit, and an officer was dispatched. as i stated above, it is a distinction without meaningful difference.

            in writing this, i am reminded of the title of one of my favorite authors, judith martin (miss manners) … “Miss Manners’ Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior”.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            If it’s a case of “seconds count, someone may die”, then dialing 911 is the appropriate thing to do.

            Tying up one of the people who answer that line for something which is of considerably lesser urgency should be avoided, and implying that someone has done so, when they have not only not done so, but have taken specific steps to avoid doing so, should also be avoided.

            Especially after the various news media have already grossly mis-characterized that person as one prone to do that sort of thing.

            unitron

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @unitron

            so to clarify — you are offended if someone mistakenly implies that zimmerman may have abused 911? because that certainly is what your post implies.

            i must say, this strikes me as petty and pedantic.

          • racerrodig says:

            “…i must say, this strikes me as petty and pedantic….”

            Bingo……& you never took a 2nd shot at the trivia question.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            With such a deluge of misinformation from the very beginning of this case, I am annoyed when people do not adhere to established facts when those facts exist.

            Speculation and opinion are for those places where we haven’t yet filled in the blanks, but misinformation should not be a part of that.

            unitron

          • unit ron……

            The 911 operator…..and the NEN operator could be one and the same……….many small towns are that way.

          • racerrodig says:

            Did he have the balXs to actually say he is annoyed by the misinformation??? Holy Shit Batman !!!

            Does he realize he has the market cornered on annoying !!!

            What a Hypocrite !!

          • fauxmccoy says:

            unitron – bottom line is that the police were called, via 911 or NEN. it makes precious little difference. if you must insist on calling people out over something this insignificant, i will begin to treat you the same for behaving as a social boor.

          • racerrodig says:

            “I am annoyed when people do not….”

            He’s the epitome of annoying, who’s he kidding !!

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            So which inaccuracies should be corrected and which should be let slide?

            Does Trayvon get to have a cut instead of an abrasion?

            If so, how about only one bloody knuckle instead of both hands?

            Can we add one or two inches to his height, but not 3?

            Where do you propose we draw the line?

            unitron

          • fauxmccoy says:

            as i suggested in my first response – on items which are materially significant to this case. i should think that would be easy enough to determine. if i spent my time correcting all that i saw ‘wrong’ in other people’s posts (NEN or 911 being one) i would have time for little else in my day and i would be braying as a jackass besides.

          • racerrodig says:

            You’re joking right…..He’ll never get it……Never.

  32. Mike says:

    😱 Now that’s shocked

  33. groans says:

    Who could/would raise the constitutional error? My guess is it would only be raised in a context of ineffective assistance of counsel, because the defendant is the one asking (maybe) for a combined hearing and trial. (?)

    Also, the combination would be a nightmare, logistically. I can’t quite picture how the parties and the court – either trial or appeal – would be able to keep track of the myriad of overlapping issues for rulings on immunity matters versus rulings on trial matters.

    And the evidence…. They would almost need to specify “immunity,” “trial,” or “both” for every evidence exhibit, witness, and maybe even some specific witness statements.

    And then could they really keep the jury from hearing, seeing, or considering things that aren’t for them to consider?

    It would make a real mess of the trial, I think. And a mess of any appeal(s). I have to wonder whether that’s the strategy of the request. Trials are hard enough to do cleanly under the best of circumstances, and they (the prosecution, defense, and court) all know that.

    There are many good reasons for the process of holding an immunity hearing first, and well in advance of the trial. I can’t think of any valid ones for commingling the two.

    • KA says:

      I do not think they are. I think MOM threw it out there but in the CNN article I posted, he seemed to state that he was saving his resources for trial and “win” immunity there…(which I am confused about…it would be guilty/not guilty wouldn’t it…neither is legally “immunity”)

      • groans says:

        That’s my understanding: Without an immunity hearing there is no immunity from either criminal OR civil liability.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @groans – i don’t see judge nelson going along with such nonsense. do you?

      • groans says:

        @fauxmccoy: No, I don’t.

      • NEF05 says:

        FWIW, FauxMcCoy, I fully agree as well.

      • Malisha says:

        Funny. The “DeeDee lied” meme is massive projection, just like the “Trayvon Martin attacked an innocent man” meme, just like “the suspect again emerged from the darkness” meme, just like the “this is political and Fogen should never have been charged with a crime” meme, just like all the other massive projections we are witnessing from this gang of psychopaths.

        It’s getting tired.
        It’s getting old.
        It’s nauseating.

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m actually surprised Fogen didn’t have a “…Trayvon was fighting for my gun and it went off accidentally” or “….he shot himself trying to shoot me” line, being such an honest upstanding American defending the home turf ‘n all.

        • Xena says:

          @Malisha

          It’s getting tired.
          It’s getting old.
          It’s nauseating.

          Yes it is. A week or so ago, I said I anxiously awaited GZ’s trial. Now I’m thinking there isn’t going to be a trial because he is going to take a plea. He’s mad at everybody, can’t take the heat, and is again financially broke.

    • Malisha says:

      The Supreme Court of FL has set forth the procedure for immunity hearings: They take place BEFORE trial and SEPARATE from trial and before a judge, NOT a jury. They cannot just be morphed into something they are not. That’s not what “procedure” means. O’Mara doesn’t want to admit this, but he is NOT having an immunity hearing because he’s unable to have such a hearing and he knows it. He’s afraid to put Fogen on the stand because it would be hari-kiri. He can’t have an immunity hearing WITHOUT Fogen on the stand. Right now he should be working on his PTSD motion.

    • I think the problem is that O’Mara knows he cannot win the immunity hearing because he cannot risk putting the defendant on the stand. For obvious reasons, he does not want to admit that.

      That is one reason why he does not want to waive the immunity hearing. The other reason is money. He wants the money to keep flowing and realizes it won’t, if he calls off the hearing.

      Therefore, he decided on this blending of the trial and the immunity hearing in order to keep the immunity-hearing ball in the air and in play.

      I’m sure he knows it won’t work and will never happen.

    • NEF05 says:

      Morpheus raised a point when I said this: If there are TWO attorneys, don’t you have to show a conspiracy between both, for ineffective counsel? Otherwise one would stop the ineffective attorney and there’d be no case. I don’t know for sure, but it makes a kind of sense, if you think about it. IJS

  34. KA says:

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/05/justice/florida-zimmerman-hearing/

    It seems that O’Mara is saying he is spending the time preparing for trial verses an immunity hearing in this CNN article.

    I knew that when he was denied the trial move date, MOM would forego a immunity hearing under the guise of “time”.

    This was all to save face for his supporters. It seems, honestly, that winning this is not of primary importance anymore, it is really about trying to salvage some pay for this time.

    • KA says:

      I think actually, this also lends way to a wrongful death suit by the Martin/Fulton family.

      I think the only way out of a wrongful death is by immunity. This trial will have a determination of “guilty” or “Not guilty” neither of those are considered “immunity” anymore.

      The wrongful death case could easily go forward and prosper especially as the facts such as his “following” and carrying a weapon on “neighborhood watch” is so damning to responsible behavior.

      • esentrick says:

        excellent point KA!

      • fauxmccoy says:

        regarding wrongful death suit — bizzackly!

        i hear a train a coming
        it’s rolling round the bend
        but i ain’t seen the sunshine
        since i don’t know when

        • “regarding wrongful death suit — bizzackly!”

          RTTL?…………fogens gonna have no money other than what he earns working in the prison laundry……..

          • fauxmccoy says:

            well, it might have an impact on any innerwebz begging income. i doubt anyone would ever get a dime out of him, he doesn’t pay his debts as we know.

            there is more than money though involved in a wrongful death suit though. i expect the money will come from deeper pockets than zim can ever hope to have.

      • KA says:

        There is the level of liability from the HOA insurance as well. It is obvious he was the “designated leader” (see the HOA newletter) for the time and he killed someone by breaking the rules of HOA. There is also a claim on any future money received by donations and any property he has his name on or inherits (possibly families).

        It still hurts whether he makes a dime of money in his life.

      • Dennis says:

        I agree. No immunity trial equals no protection from a civil suit. There is no chance in hell that Fogen would win his civil trial.

        I think Fogen is a threat to our safety. If he sees that he is going to be convicted, what is to stop him from getting a gun and going on a killing spree and hurting more innocent people? It is sad that the imaginary belief of innocent-until-proven-guilty is more important that protecting society from a murderer.

        Someone should start a White House petition to ask Obama to send a Predator drone to deal with Fogen.

      • Dennis says:

        @Frederick

        Yes, I was kidding. I thought I would use some humor to bring attention to Obama’s drone strikes. Our justice system is completely useless if our leaders can murder their own people (JFK, Oklahoma City, 9/11), imprison people without due process (Guantanamo Bay), and Obama drone assassinations (NDAA). Fogen is nothing compared to the atrocities committed by our own government.

    • Trained Observer says:

      And to keep Fogen breathing comparatively free air for as long as possible, since his doom to a cell lockdown is a virtual given.

    • groans says:

      Interestingly, I saw O’Mara quoted (somewhere this morning) as referring to it as “civil immunity.” Something to the effect that “civil immunity” is not his priority now.

      An odd, and perhaps telling, characterization on O’Mara’s part.

      • KA says:

        Isn’t civil immunity reserved for those like police officers that are doing something in the line of their duties when something goes wrong?

        Surely they are not looking at that for GZ? His neighborhood watch duties do not extend to following nor being armed. Actually, in the presentations that were in the first evidence dump, there was pages of training details that GZ approved that should that they were not to carry weapons nor follow. As the organizer and self appointed “leader”, he would be more responsible than others on that.

        I would have to think that there is a purpose to that information in the evidence, yet I hear little about that angle.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          KA – civil immunity is just one of the big damn deals of the SYG immunity hearings; it provides not only criminal but civil immunity.

          for example, had OJ received such a thing, the victims’ families could have never sued him civilly for wrongful death.

      • Rachael says:

        I think he means immunity from a civil suit, which is different than civil immunity – for which you are correct in definition.

      • KA says:

        How would he get immunity from a civil suit?

        In trial, “guilty” or “not guilty”…

        How would be become immune unless they were adding something else?

      • Rachael says:

        KA, In a trial, he would not. He is being charged criminally right now of murder 2. He could be found not guilty, but that does not make him immune to civil suit (for example wrongful death or for HOA things).

        Think about OJS. He was found not guilty of murder criminally, but was found guilty civilly.

        You are correct though that civil immunity is when person who is acting in the scope of his official capacity and in good faith (like a police officer or fire fighter) is immune from civil liability and is not subject to suit unless the damage or injury was caused by willful and wanton or grossly negligent conduct of such person.

        I guess in that sense, the immunity hearing is like that. If found not guilty in the immunity hearing, it means he cannot be sued criminally or civilly. However, if found questionable, it goes to trial. The immunity hearing is not mandatory in self-defense and at this time, it “looks” like he is going to waive his right to it and just go straight to trial.

  35. Trained Observer says:

    meant did, not dead

  36. esentrick says:

    following

  37. Trained Observer says:

    Can a complaint be filed with the Florida Bar on behalf of DD for the Fogen team’s blatant “she lied” when all she dead was say “yeah” when BDLR asked if she went to the “hospital or somewhere.”?

    • KA says:

      It is not even for sure which question she was answering.

      She said she did not feel well. This is the only statement under oath.

      BLDR did not dwell on it, because it was not important and had little to do with the issue at hand.

  38. Tzar says:

    This is me shocked 🙂

  39. Malisha says:

    I am wondering why anybody cares whether DeeDee went to a hospital or “somewhere” after learning of Trayvon’s death; that’s not material. On the other hand, look at these statements made by Fogen that ARE material and that DID take place in the context of statements given to the police during a murder investigation:

    [To Serino] I have an associate’s degree in criminal justice.
    [To Serino] Now I am taking courses for my bachelor’s degree.
    [To Singleton] My doctor says my nose was broken.
    [To Singleton and/or Serino] “They” told me I needed stitches.
    [To Hannity] He wasn’t running from fear.
    [To Serino] He said, “What the Fuck’s your problem, homie?”

    • truthseeker66 says:

      Spot on!

    • Trained Observer says:

      Yeah … and I’m working on my doctorate in folkloric literature from Seminole Junior … ooops Community College.

      • racerrodig says:

        I’m working on my Degree in “Rock Song Lyric Rewriting” and I’ll bet I’m closer to getting it that FogenPhoole is to getting anything related to an education.

    • Rachael says:

      Good points!

    • KA says:

      I had forgot about the “associates” discussion…HA!

      This is so overstated. I just found a Chicago Tribune article…saying the witness is “crumbling”

      Please, the things they mention are hearsay…not even admissible

      http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2013/03/trayvon-martins-girlfriends-credibility-is-crumbling.html#comment-captcha

      • Trained Observer says:

        Zorn has been around for awhile and ought to know better. He needs to be clued in …

      • leander22 says:

        mediawise, this is no doubt a partial defense victory. First age, now hospital. The majority will not pay attention to details. They have two points to hammer in from now on concerning her. That’s how you shape public perception. They will raise suspicion against her.

        The ultimate aim will be that DD did not go to police and report what she had witnessed in late February early March. That’s the aim, how much about the case could she have heard in the local news or read in the print media before she gave her statements.

        O’Mara will make a big show of that during trial for the jury.

        Q: You claim what you witnessed resulted in the dead of a friend, never mind you didn’t go to the funeral, BUT: you did not go to police?

      • Malisha says:

        These news articles that shore up the alleged defenses of the “defense” are a sort of journalistic masturbation. These folks must know, if they have double-digit IQs at least, that their guy is tanking. They are grasping at straws of their own creation to comfort themselves as they slide down that loooooooong slope with him, all the while wishing those days would return when you could pop off one or two “fucking punks” in your life so long as you were still “the good guy.”

        Times they are a-changing, and yet a sprinkling of nostalgic KKKpp sprinklers will always be singing Dixie…and who cares?

        Fogen will find god several times between now and the time he stops finding god. I hope just one of them is a rational deity. Rene S and a few other journalists can walk the talk as well.

    • Dennis says:

      The defense cares. They want to discredit her as much as possible because she is the prosecution’s star witness. It is ridiculous because the fact of whether DeeDee went to the hospital or not has no relation to the circumstances of Trayvon’s murder.

      • boyd says:

        George is the star witness by way of the police tapes and 911 call.

        DeeDee story fits the event and DeeDee can tell us what was on Trayvon’s mind and it reasonab;y makes sense, he ran because he was worried about the “creep” following by car and LATER BY FOOT.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “George is the star witness by way of the police tapes and 911 call.”

          Which 911 call? There were several that evening.

          unitron

    • towerflower says:

      add on “he circled my vehicle”

    • onlyiamunitron says:

      “I am wondering why anybody cares whether DeeDee went to a hospital or “somewhere” after learning of Trayvon’s death; that’s not material.”

      The question isn’t what happened, it’s was she truthful about what happened.

      Whether a potential witness has been untruthful about something may very well be material.

      unitron

      • fauxmccoy says:

        from the transcript, it appears definitive.

        DeeDee admittied to going either to a hospital or a somewhere. since no hospital records exist apparently, we are left to assume she went ‘somewhere’.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          That’s the BDLR transcript.

          The Crump transcript has her answering in the affirmative to a question about whether she spent the night in the hospital and to a question about whether she required or received medical treatment.

          She was not under oath during that conversation, so it can’t be called perjury, but it can still be used to bring into question her truthfulness.

          http://frederickleatherman.com/2013/03/05/livestream-for-zimmerman-march-5-hearing/#comment-83613

          unitron

          • fauxmccoy says:

            yes unitron, however, as i understand it, the crump work will not be admissible in court – i cannot remember the specific reasons, i hope the good professor will help us out. if you have seen any of my previous comments, you’ll know that i am less than thrilled with this development for a variety of reasons. i tend to think the prosecution knows something more specific about this hospital thing, it may come out during deposition, but all we heard in court today is that ‘there is no hospital record’. that does leave a door open to a variety of other possibilities. i am going to assume that the prosecution knows exactly what it is doing. they have played their cards pretty close to the vest throughout the hearing process.

      • Jun says:

        What proof do you have that she was untruthful?

        You do not have any, therefore, you have nothing, and just making allegations with nothing to back it up

        So why dont you stop “MISINFORMING” and “MISLEADING” people?

        She was upset her friend got fucking killed and she had high blood pressure

        Her medical records are moot and irrelevant to the issue

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “What proof do you have that she was untruthful?”

          The Crump interview, where he asks if she spent the night in the hospital and she answers in the affirmative raises the question of whether she was truthful or not if it’s true that she was not hospitalized.

          unitron

        • racerrodig says:

          Thank You…I just put tron on permanent ignore….he’s the “King” so he thinks, majors in the minors, is the single most condescending one on the internet.

      • Jun says:

        Well

        There you go

        You have no proof

        She answered twice to being upset about her friend being killed and she was unable to attend a wake (which is not a funeral) and her answers on the crump tape are unclear

        so

        She went to the hospital she stated, because she was visibly upset about her friend being killed

        There’s no reasonable suspicion, probable cause, and the issue is moot in regards to whether she is truthful about going to the hospital so, until then, you have no proof, and you are misleading and misinforming people

        At this point, all you can say is she stated she went to the hospital because she was upset that her friend was killed

        Her medical records are private and it do not mean much anyways, therefore it is moot

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          I never claimed to have “proof”, I pointed out that her answers in the Crump interview raise the question of her truthfulness if she actually was not hospitalized, and so far there seems to be no proof that she was hospitalized, and there doesn’t seem to be any eagerness to provide the proof that she was, which might lead some to wonder if there’s any “there” there.

          unitron

      • Rachael says:

        The name unitron is very similar to the name Unicron. Any relation?

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          derived from university electronics, a nom de “get mail order parts catalogs” in the pre-internet days.

          No connection with Unicron or anybody else.

          I’ve always only been me.

          unitron

        • racerrodig says:

          I put “The King” on permanent ignore…he rates nothing from me. Try it !!………..You’ like it. The back wall of my shop shows greater intelligence…..AND doesn’t major in the minors !

      • NEF05 says:

        @ unitron.

        All they have to do is subpoena the night nurse and doctor with charts. Case Closed.

      • Jun says:

        She never stated she was hospitalized

        She was asked if she had to go to the hospital or somewhere

        and she was unable to attend the wake and she stated she had high blood pressure and had to go to the hospital or somewhere

        the answers on the Crump tape are very unclear

        So you have nothing, and the point is moot

        You claimed that you have grounds to believe she was untruthful and you truly do not, therefore, you are misinforming and misleading people

      • Jun says:

        Basically, you are basing it on what West stated in court, when West had no proof of her being untruthful

        This all that transpired

        1) Deedee stated to Crump she was upset and felt ill because of her friend being killed and had to go to the hospital and was unable to attend the wake

        2) Deedee told Bernie the same thing, except she had added that she had high blood pressure

        3) The state told the defense they did not have the records and then told the court it is not an important issue and they can ask her at deposition

        4) The judge decided it was moot and dismissed it

        So you are basing your suspicion of Deedee being untruthful on an unobjective opinion of West, whom formed that opinion with no proof

        In conclusion, you have nothing, the defense should take her deposition, and until you have proof, do not accuse people, because she stated twice, with no contradiction, that she was upset and unable to attend the wake and felt ill

      • leander22 says:

        Witness # 8

        It’s about 12:12 in the Crump’s interview. He already thanked her, and asks her to say thank you to her mom and dad, than he remembers about the funeral or alternatively and asks her about it.

        I am not completely sure but I have this vague memory trail that Tracy said he called her, when he found her number on the records and asked her if her lawyer could call her, and passed the number on to Crump. She may have felt she needed a good excuse for not having come to the funeral for the father of her dead friend. This is of course speculation.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          I just went back and listened to it.

          Much if not most of what she says I cannot make out, but when Crump asks if she spent the night in the hospital she says yes or yeah, and the same thing when he asks about medical attention.

          I don’t know specifically why the defense zeroed in on that, maybe they got a tip or something, but nobody seems to be very eager to bring forth proof of that hospitalization, so it’s going to cause some to have questions about her veracity until it’s settled one way or the other, especially coming on top of the age thing. There may not always be a fire where there is smoke, but as smoke gets thicker people start to wonder if there might not be a fire.

          I have not heard her say anything specific about her age, nor am I privy to her medical records, so I’m keeping an open mind and waiting to see what comes of all of this.

          unitron

      • leander22 says:

        or alternatively the hospital, could be wake instead of funeral too.

      • @unitron,Dee Dee telling Crump amount to anything,she wasn’t under oath nor Crump administered one!
        Let Justice Prevail?

      • Malisha says:

        She doesn’t have to prove that everything she ever said to anybody in the history of the world was 100% correct. There is a peculiar shifting of the burden of what has to be proved adn what does not have to be proved. If what DeeDee witnessed on 2/26/2012 is consistent with the physical evidence that can be adduced about what happened that night, and if Fogen either fails to take the stand to controvert it OR is found to be so lacking in credibility that his words are trusted far less than the words of 16 or 18 year old DeeDee, that is what counts. The idea that an attack on every single thing DeeDee ever said in any way shape or form to anyone ever about anything is really important here is nonsense and it is done for the simple reason that a liar, whose lies are OBVIOUS and are recorded and are provable, insists that he had a good reason to kill a kid he had no justifiable reason to even SPEAK TO is trying to defend himself by showing that OTHERS LIE and only HE is allowed to lie and nobody is allowed to take HIM to task for his lies.

        Fogen’s problem is that he was born in the wrong place at the wrong time. Had he been the son of a white plantation owner in Sanford in 1855 he’d have been just fine and he could get away with not only killing Trayvon Martin but he could have DeeDee sold to punish her for having mourned her boyfriend’s death. DeeDee has nothing to apologize for. Calling her a liar is a sign of really bad behavior on the part of whoever does it.

      • Jun says:

        Why does she have to bring her medical records to prove she went to the hospital?

        For one, it is private information and not relevant to the case at hand

        Second, she is innocent until proven guilty

        and what she stated is not clear, which is why the judge, stated, to take her deposition, clear things up, and then they can have a hearing about her medical records afterward if necessary

        Then West kept accusing her of lying about the issue with no proof, and then the judge ruled it moot and said to move on

        Lastly, it is moot, because even if she did not go to the hospital or whatever, it still does not mean the defendant did not commit murder LOL

        I think more important is the defendant’s credibility, not Deedee’s, as her only necessary testimony is that she was proven to have been on the phone with the victim during the stalking and attack he received from the defendant, and her testimony is supported by the NEN phone call and witness 18, and witness 11, when she claimed she heard someone say “what are you doing around here?

        So even if she is untruthful, for the sake of argument, so what? LMAO

        It is as simple as this

        West – you claimed you went to the hospital, is that correct?

        Deedee – yes I was ill and unable to attend to the wake

        West – can you prove it with your medical records?

        Deedee’s lawyer – I object on grounds of relevancy and privacy, and annoyance.

        Concluded on top of the judge declaring it moot

        Why not just take her bloodclot deposition and clear up anything before as the FDLE states “going straight to the source rather than relying on unauthenticated hearsay of information”

      • boyd says:

        i did not understand a word from that crump tape recording I heard. No way you can understand the crump tape and not hear coons on the 911 call

        This guy crump means well but what the hell was he thinking on the tape. why did he not bring FDLE into it from the begining.

      • leander22 says:

        maybe they got a tip or something

        unitron, they simply need to look out for whatever the juridical e.g. Jeralyn Merrit, who again links to Diwataman’s video. I am sure she celebrated:

        The first significant motion to be heard was the defense request for a subpoena to obtain the hospital records of Witness 8, Trayvon Martin’s 19 year old phone friend. (Starts at 13:40 into part 1.) The defense advised the court the subpoena was no longer necessary as the state told them yesterday the records did not exist. Witness 8 had lied when she told Trayvon Martin’s lawyers and the state prosecutor (the latter under oath) she could not attend Trayvon Martin’s wake on Friday, March 2, 2012, because she had gone to the hospital where she spent the night. More on this at the end. [More…]

        And supposed criminal experts like Mike McDaniel, wrote on the topic. Both were pretty obsessed with DD too. He has not added anything, seems he celebrates silently.

        Have you noticed by the way that The Many Manipulations, Myths and Lies of the Zimmerman/Martin Case keep moving up on Diwataman’s. Seems he considers it his most important study. Look at the items he collects. How many do you think are relevant in the case?

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          I don’t keep up with Diwataman, or his site (he’s got his own site, right?), and by tip, I mean from someone actually in a position to know, which would leave him out unless he lives across the street from her or something like that.

          And I’m unfamiliar with this Mike McDaniel you mention.

          unitron

      • @racerrodig -What is wrong with him?
        It reminds me of lcp.

      • leander22 says:

        You know Jeralyn, omnitron, and in her latest article she linked to the “Stately Mc Manor”/Mike McDaniel’s blog.

        Sometimes you seem to use arguments similar to the ones by Diwataman. So maybe you’ll find a more “friendly” environment over there?

        Can you tell me what exactly drew your interest in the case, beyond media misinformation. I think, I asked you this before. 🙂

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          Okay, I recognize the Stately McManor name. I looked over there a few months ago for a map or transcript or something.

          I mostly confine my sojourns on “that side of the fence” to TalkLeft and the TalkLeft forum specifically about this case.

          Over there they think I’m working undercover for Crump and BDLR.

          Jeralyn really didn’t care at all for my crack about how Zimmerman could have stayed in his ride, safe behind the Skittles-proof glass, and wasn’t too thrilled at my pointing out that .

          Mentioning that Zimmerman’s account of how the fight started had to be considered in the context of his desire to avoid jail and that the only other eyewitness to it was permanently unavailable so that his version lacked corroboration didn’t go over too well with her, either.

          She mentions Diwataman occasionally and I’ve looked at his site a time or two but don’t remember exactly for what. A transcript, maybe.

          I’ve long since quit posting about it and trying to correct the known false rumors in the HuffPo articles about the case, and don’t even bother looking to see what stories they post about it anymore. It’s more fun to wait for them to post an article about Paul Krugman and see all the supply siders’ heads explode.

          (and I did look at something over at the Treehouse early on. Still feel like I need a shower.)

          As to what first drew my interest to the case I can’t really recall.

          It might have been when all the calls were released and I gave them a listen out of curiosity.

          (never been able to go back and re-listen to W18’s call again–once was almost too hard)

          Since I didn’t know anybody involved with the case, and information about it was sketchy and contradictory at first, I guess it became kind of like solving a puzzle to try to figure out exactly what happened from what evidence that was available to the public.

          I discovered Susan’s timeline over at LL2, and the map and photo work being done at bcclist and by whonoze and willisnewton and before long found myself in too deep to get out.

          I know I put in a lot of time listening to the NEN call and doing math on it to figure out how long he was “moving briskly” after his rather energetic exit from what then was only known as his vehicle, ’cause we didn’t know for sure if he meant an actual truck truck, or just an SUV, and figuring out how much more time he had to get back to it at a slower walking pace if he’d chosen to.

          It was also about then that I found the Professor’s site, back when it was a good place to discuss the case.

          unitron

      • leander22 says:

        Susan’s timeline over at LL2

        I didn’t know Susan. Unfortuately not updated.

        Knox has a peculiar mistake in his time-line. He used two of Singleton/Serino’s times. These:

        19:16:43 911 call from witness #11
        19:17:20 Shot fired.

        One more question, if I may. Jeralyn’s forum on Zimmerman seems to be closed for quite some time now, for new subscribers. When exactly did this happen and why?

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          Yeah, things at LL2 were pretty lively last spring or so, but they sort of wound down on their own.

          Still worth reading for someone trying to get up to speed, especially on the issue of maybe the young lady’s 4 minute phone call didn’t run exactly from 7:12 PM to 7:16 PM, assuming it was a full 4 minutes.

          I haven’t paid that much attention to Knox, but the Serino timeline was discredited months ago.

          He went by when stuff got sent out to the patrol cars, but the time stamps on the first 911 call establish that it came in at 7:16:11 PM and the shot was fired at 7:16:56 PM.

          Are you saying that the regular site

          http://www.talkleft.com/

          that covers lots of different stuff is closed to new people?

          That could be because of spam posters all over the threads lately.

          If you mean the State v. George Zimmerman-specific forum

          http://forums.talkleft.com/

          I haven’t noticed spammers there, but maybe she decided to make it old members only for a while because she doesn’t have time to ride herd on a bunch of newbies just now.

          Since I’ve already got login credentials for both, I’d have to try to set up a second account to see which one turns me down, but I don’t want to have my IP in her logs as trying to do that because it would look like I was trying to do something deceitful and not just experimental.

          unitron

    • Jun says:

      At most, it is just allegations from Omara and the Treefort, who are not objective at all anyways

      The bottom line is they have no proof she lied, yet they are calling her a liar

      It is like their 16 – 18 issue

      Their is no proof she specifically stated that she was 16 and then later on 18, on top of the issue being moot

      On top of that, Fogen called Trayvon in his late teens and a kid, and then at bond tried to claim he was closer to his age

      It is all pointless so let is get back to the main issue, which is what happened

      They are trying to make a mole hill into a mountain, when there is not even a mole hill

      My opinion is the judge and jury will just think Omara’s a prick if he attacks her on the stand and my guess is she will not be happy going to court because her friend got fucking stalked and killed and she was on the phone with him!

      The judge said it is a moot issue

      Those records are private and she or her doctor does not have to turn them over

      so the judge already settled it and it is time to move on

      • @Jun:

        High ^ June! O’Money and his boring side kick, West certainly did not proof that Dee Dee lied! O’Money knows that what she stated regarding TM is the truth, and that is what they are so afraid of. Why are we discussing Dee Dee anyway? What about the SPD officials. former Chief Lee, Wolfie, and several of the Poice Officers who lied, obstucted justice and were tampering with witnesses? What about the witnesses who are lying like W6 did and then recanted?

        The forensics evidence and the many inconsistencies in that lying Fogen’s story, will be his downfall anyway. I cannot believe that people are out here trying to make Dee Dee the issue.I am so sorry that Dee Dee has hypertension. Hypertension can hit anyone at any age. I have it myself but I am middle aged. She is only 18 and so young to have HTN. She better keep an eye on that for the rest of her life, and this case does not help her at all with the added stress and pressure on her.

        • Xena says:

          When ASA Guy spoke, I got the impression that he said there are no hospital records because maybe — just maybe — he knows that DeeDee went to a physician’s emergency center.

          The State is concerned for DeeDee’s safety. What better way than to cause Zidiots to think they are right so they will stop their illegal doxing?

          The State already knows that they have a good objection to any questions beyond the scope of DeeDee’s testimony of what she heard when on the phone with Trayvon on 2/26/12.

      • Jun says:

        I think what Nelson and Guy and the FDLE lawyer suggested was the correct thing to do

        Go straight to the source and ask, instead of using hearsay and unauthenticated information for their arguments

        Which is…

        GO TAKE DEEDEE’s Deposition!!!

        They can ask here, straight from her mouth, and she can answer, and Nelson already stated that they can bring up anything new regarding her medical records at a later hearing

        Then the judge declared it moot after West kept accusing her of lying with no proof

        God damn, they made such a big issue out of nothing

        Lord have mercy

        • racerrodig says:

          I think they’re afraid of taking her deposition. I believe they think she’s had so much time to refine her prose she could be unassailable at this point. If they had 1/2 a brain, they’d have taken her deposition ASAP so she might still be unsure in the way she talks, 1 year less mature, 1 year less prep…….and so on.

          Now it’s a huge deal because of an ambiguous statement that was not under oath….????? What a bunch of Putzes !!

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Malisha, I so agree with you on this. Fogne has told a multitude of lies and so has some of the witnesses who know more than what they are telling. W-6, W-11 and Jeremy all come to mind right out of the gate. so why dwell on DeeDee when she wasn’t even sworn to what she told Crump. Skeletor and Sylvester have been out to discredit this girl since day one. if what they are doing is the norm in our country’s justice system, then I definitely don’t have any faith in it at all. I thought a defense attorney couldn’t get any worse that Baez and the attorney giving the media the finger after the Anthony trial.

      • Malisha says:

        Let’s look at this “let me take a picture of your head, dude” on the party of a lying witness a few minutes after the death of Trayvon Martin. REALLY? Doesn’t a normal person say, “Hey man, the police are on their way, I don’t really want to get involved.”? Doesn’t a normal person say, “Hey, man, I think that guy is dead; I don’t think we ought to be calling family and snapping photos right now, sorry.” Doesn’t a normal person say, “Man, I don’t want to get in trouble with the cops, man; let them handle it their way.”

        This whole story has been FULL OF LIARS. It has been full of liars who get together and shore up their stories with each other. If you focus just a little attention on the first 20 statements made by anybody from the SPD, the HOA, Fogen and his Fogenites, you come up with a dozen bold liars. Filth poured out of their mouths as they covered up the murder of an innocent kid. They should have been buried in manure with just their noses free for 48 hours for each lie they told when they thought they were going to get away with covering up the murder, and now they’re running around screaming like psychotic cholera patients about a PRESUMED LIE that is assuming “facts not in evidence.” Damn! Grow up, West. Delouse before you come to court.

    • RobertSF says:

      Well, what’s going on is that the defense is trying the case in public, so it’s grasping at every little straw it sees floating by. The prosecution is not trying the case in public, so we’re not getting a steady dose of Zimmerman’s endless inconsistencies.

      I wish the judge had issued a gag order.

    • Jun says:

      LMAO

      I think this credible but

      According to this

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_impeachment

      They cant even use their current allegation against DD during trial anyways LMAO

    • boyd says:

      bingo Malisha. I initlally thought of the “I have a associate degree” as well when Zimmerman’s lawyer jumped on DeeDee.
      you have been paying attention.

      one other thing the “what’s your problem” lingo he also used to describe his 2005 incident with the cop. He said he told the cop “what’s your problem” that’s on the Serino tape from the 29th.
      He is putting his words into Trayvon’s mouth.

      • Malisha says:

        Boyd, here is a fascinating little piece of the whole “Fogen lies” thing. When Fogen first described the terribleness of Trayvon Martin and his unwarranted savage attack on a “good guy,” he quoted:

        “What the fuck’s your problem, homie?”

        In one of the subsequent interviews by Serino (a skilled “BTW guy,” BTW — he knows how to lay the BTW where it does the most good), Serino pops in, “Did he use the word ‘homie’?” and Fogen’s “little” voice answers “I don’t know” or “I don’t remember” in his “THIS IS A LIE MUMBLE.”

        Well well!

        If Big Bad Black Trayvon did say the word “homie,” you would think that Good Guy Fogen WOULD remember. You would think, in fact, that it would have been burned into his memory. As in, “Right before he started to try to kill me he called me homie!”

        And if in fact Big Bad Black Trayvon did NOT say the word “homie,” — well — hey waitaminute!

        If in fact Big Bad Black Trayvon did NOT say the word “homie,” —

        If — let me just get this straight —

        If in fact Big Bad Black Trayvon did NOT say the word “homie” — then Fogen telling Singleton that Big Bad Black Trayvon DID say the word “homie” — is extremely —

        is something quite MORE than extremely —

        …is…

        I’m at a loss for words. If Big Bad Black Trayvon did not say the word “homie,” which is a possibility conceded by Good Guy Fogen within days of the event, then the use of the word “homie” is possibly a creation of Good Guy Fogen. It is possibly a word put in the mouth of Trayvon Martin although it never came OUT of the mouth of Trayvon Martin in the first instance.

        Is not this “homie” issue a “game over” for Good Guy Fogen?

      • type1juve says:

        @boyd
        Not only does he put his words into Trayvon’s mouth, he assigns his actions to Trayvon and even manages to slip up a few times when telling his “stories”.

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