Crime laboratories must be subjected to mandatory blind proficiency testing

Monday, March 4, 2013

I have many errands to run today, so I am going to post a short article with a link to an important article by Professor Randolph Jonakait regarding the need to regulate crime laboratories.

His article, published in the Harvard Journal of Law and Technology in 1991, reviewed the performance of crime laboratories since the abysmal results of a 1978 study conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA). When his article was published, it was and remains the only independent study measuring laboratory performance in this country.

To say that the results of the LEAA study were shocking is a vast understatement.

Given the persistent stories of fraud and sloppiness in crime laboratories, you would think that some progress would have been made toward requiring crime labs to submit to mandatory blind proficiency testing similar to clinical laboratories pursuant to the Clinical Laboratory Improvement Act (CLIA), but you would be wrong. The American Society of Crime Laboratory Directors (ASCLD) supervises a voluntary program of proficiency testing that is not blind. The labs and the analysts know when they are being tested, a situation that is little better than no proficiency testing.

Putting the fox in charge of protecting the hen-house is about as effective as putting the Wall Street banks in charge of protecting the economy. We all know how well that strategy works.

Some of you may recall Frederic Whitehurst. He was a Supervisor at the FBI Crime Laboratory who blew the whistle on conditions at the lab in 1998. After he blew the whistle, I had the pleasure of having lunch with him at an outdoor cafe in San Diego when I was a co-chair of the Forensic Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL). His stories shocked me even though I was no ingenue. I knew there were many problems with crime labs but still believed the FBI Lab was an exception to the rule. I was wrong.

Professor Jonakait’s article is long but well worth reading. Please read and comment.

That is your assignment for today.

Do not forget that we have a hearing tomorrow morning at 9 am EST before Judge Nelson. Hopefully, I will have time later today to post an article about what to expect.

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170 Responses to Crime laboratories must be subjected to mandatory blind proficiency testing

  1. Lynn says:

    While many have praised LLMPapa for his analysis, as of yet, LLMPapa’s findings have gone largely unchallenged.

    Knox must be reading those “praises” here because LLMPapa’s youtube always has the comments closed.

  2. LLMPapa says:

    I’m staring at the shirt I used alongside the evidence shirt and I’ve gotta be missing something. I don’t see how the hole could be more accurately placed.

    Is it some ambiguous fraction of an inch off? Possibly, but there’s 4-5″ of misalignment here between the hole in the clothes and the bullet wound to the body.

    • Leelee says:

      Looks right to me, nothing is missing.

    • Xena says:


      … and I’ve gotta be missing something.

      According to Knox? The only thing you are missing is a real name. Until he gets it, the Zidiots are illegally doxing everyone whose first name starts with “L” with the middle initial “M” and the last name “Papa” or “Paparazzi” or Paparinski” — stuff like that.

    • Jun says:

      I think another point he fails at is

      He says you are full of holes because you did not use the exact materials


      he conducted tests with a cardboard and two tshirts with a weird white block thingy while standing, which is a far cry from his scientific conclusion that he gave LOL

      IMO you used materials very close to what was used in real life, therefore, your findings are much more accurate and believable and understood by the average juror or judge

      The fact that Knox tries to sound smart with long words would confuse a juror and judge and he does not make much sense in that his whole conclusion does not match up with the whole picture, rather bits and pieces of a defendant testimony he even claims is questionable

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      No, it’s not you or your measurements, it’s the EggSpurt’s inability to read the autopsy report. He thinks that the holes in the garments are also 17.5 inches below the top of the head and right where the bullet hole in the body is. His mistake is that he has miscalculated that you’ve moved the entrance wound lower, and that’s why, in his opinion, you can’t see that the holes actually line up, as they would if the clothing movements were due to gravity.

      His problem is he’s gotten it all wrong, my guess is his colleagues and/or competition have been getting all over him, thus he’s shut off the comments on his blog. He only had one poster there and that was a detractor.

      Now his problems are legion. Who will hire an eggSpurt who can’t read an autopsy report, from start to finish to ensure that his work will be correct? As Professor Leatherman points out, boy will he be surprised when he learns that the shot went through the heart.

      Also, he apparently doesn’t know that the boys who did the work with photogrammetry, have said that to use it properly, you must first photograph and measure the actual subject matter, before you apply photogrammetry to the material, so that you can calibrate the difference. His attempt to use it raw, is nothing but a mistake. Apparently the eggSpurt didn’t read the photogrammetry report either.

      Meanwhile, your mannequin is more biofidelic than his cardboard will ever be. So, all the work he has done so far on behalf of clients is suspect and will have to be reconfirmed, because he’s displayed incompetence sufficient to be accused of early onset Alzheimers or other mental impairments. So, the question for the courts is, when did it begin? Or was he always this sloppy? Or could he just be a shill? These questions will now need answers, because his own activities have made them relevant.

  3. Jun says:

    I agree that there should be standards, set forth by a scientific and medical body, to watch over everything

    The forensics team should be properly trained with the officers, so the officers know what to do, and what to look for as well

    • Rachael says:

      You are right Xena. LLMPapa really musta hit a nerve. LOL

      • Xena says:


        You are right Xena. LLMPapa really musta hit a nerve. LOL

        LLMPapa hit a nerve with Zidiots months ago. They have not been able to intimidate, humiliate, demean him into oblivion. So, they instigate Knox to pick a fight with LLMPapa — the anonymous one. LOL!!!

        Knox no doubt now regrets doing that.

  4. I’m sad to report that “experts” like Michael Knox are commonplace.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Obviously Knox Sox Fox is an educated man and not as lame as I make him out to be in my off the cuff comment above. But still – how do these folks set themselves up as credible experts when their work is full of holes (pun intended). Good grief. I see Knox’s point about using the cardboard and a gun to catch the stippling, but his ad hominem attacks of what LLMPapa did sounds like a little fit of jealousy. If he were truly debunking LLM he’d do it with more data and facts. But he doesn’t quite get there.

      Why doesn’t he take his ka-ching per hour and do some more intensive experiments? Isn’t that what experts are supposed to do? And from various positions? Travyon over Fogen, Fogen over Travyon, Fogen standing with arm outstretched – oh, I forgot – he’d have to be peer-reviewed by LLMPapa, who already had a credible theory of how Fogen shot Trayvon standing up…

      • Xena says:

        @Two sides. Here’s my guess — a Zidiot contacted Knox with the “misinformation and false narrative” yada, yada, yada “innocent until proven guilty” diatribe, instigating Knox to feel that he had to be condescending to LLMPapa before he even looked at Papa’s videos.

        Knox probably regrets that he came down to that level now, because a real professional has no need to compete with an anonymous person on Youtube, right? I mean, what makes LLMPapa a threat to Knox? Neither are likely to be called as a witness in GZ’s case.

  5. Here’s Knox responding to a comment at his site:

    For the record, I’m asserting that there is not misalignment of the holes in the garments with the entrance wound. If LLMPapa had measured from the top of the head instead of just placing the dot near the mannequin’s nipple area, he would have realized that there was no misalignment.

    Still hasn’t dawned on him that Trayvon was shot in the heart!

    • Jun says:

      IMO he’s a phony

      The actual GSW was actually really close to the solar plexus, probably about an inch above the solar plexus, and slightly to the left from the centre of the victim’s body

      Even with his inaccurate calculations on the clothing that he made (he even made the hole bigger than the measurements the coroner and ballistics gave), and you would still need to have the defendant pulling the shirts (both) down to line up with the GSW, as the trajectory is straight front to back

      The trajectory is a major point that blows his theory

      Also, how does one hover?

      If Trayvon was leaning, and gravity alone was responsible, the bulletholes would have been slightly lower than the GSW due to sagging

    • kllypyn says:

      Maybe instead of trying to justify the murder of an innocent 17 year old he should actually read the autopsy report. He’s starting to irritate me.

  6. Oh, Mr. Knoxforensics, yohooo. Did you have time to post those links to your published research yet?

    Journal articles, Mr. Knox. Journal articles or it didn’t happen. And I don’t mean an internet magazine. I mean Forensic Pathology, peer-reviewed.

  7. Xena says:

    While Knox has a blog, he also has a website.

    On his website, it is written:

    Knox & Associates President and Chief Forensic Consultant Michael A. Knox is board certified as a crime scene reconstructionist through the International Association for Identification.

    As a reconstructionist, Knox should know that he can’t reconstruct how GZ shot Trayvon unless he gets on his back and has a person straddle him as GZ describes. Maybe Knox can show the jury how GZ managed to get his gun out of holster on the back of his ass with Trayvon’s knees in the way.

    • blushedbrown says:


      Have you seen what this “expert” charges?? Unreal.

      Click to access Retainer_Agreement.pdf

      • Xena says:

        @blushedbrown. Some experts charge more than Knox, but then they are experts listed with Bar Associations and/or attorney referral services rather than advertising on the internet.

        • blushedbrown says:


          Ok I see… that’s a reasonable internet rate for “experts”. 😈

          • Xena says:


            Ok I see… that’s a reasonable internet rate for “experts”. 😈

            It’s a website geared towards Craig’s list type consumers looking for expert testimony.

      • Jun says:

        He’s a rip off LOL

        He’d get eaten alive by me, and I am not even claiming to be a forensic expert, just common sense science and physics to prove him wrong

        I am guessing Omara paid him to lie

        • blushedbrown says:


          Nah, he saw an opportunity to get on TV and write a book and he did. He got caught with his pants down and he has to own up to it. If O’mara coaxed him to do the interview somehow, I say it backfired in his face, because he is now trying to defend himself on twitter and on his blog, and not doing a very good job.

        • I didn’t know you were a cannibal.

          Gotta take it easy with those bath salts, man.

      • Rachael says:

        Holy something-I-can’t-say-here!!!

      • Jun says:

        LOL why would anyone pay him when what he testifies will end up being inadmissible in court?

        • blushedbrown says:



          Well considering the defense has very limited funds and Xena statement about the high cost of real “experts” , this is actually a good rate for someone as thrifty and frugal (osterman words) like GZ.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Boy did he ever pick the wrong fight, he’ll not be getting any of those retainers or fees anymore. But, doesn’t his pay schedule look exactly like the kind of low end, money hungry ground sniffing “experts” MOM would be looking for? Someone whose possible lack of integrity might allow them to fudge something together on behalf of a client who has damaged his own defense so incredibly?

        In a normal case, with a good chance of guilt or innocence hanging in the balance of technical analysis, many experts can be found to take up either side of a case, with excellent credentials and for way less money than what Knox appears to be demanding.

        An engineer I knew, a long time ago, went into court on behalf of an accused person for free, when he became so incensed by seeing the matter portrayed on the evening news.

        Is it possible that GZ’s supporters have no expertise at all they can lend to the matter? Hmmm…

        • blushedbrown says:


          >>>Is it possible that GZ’s supporters have no expertise at all they can lend to the matter? Hmmm…

          If you consider Mark O’mara’s wife as a supporter, he did say she would testify as an expert on how hard he’s working. (snark)

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Can’t the defense find anything relevant to work with at all? Disney had better do something about that Orlando Sentinel or people will think that they’re crazy as well. The last thing they should want is a local paper spewing lies with incompetent reporters. Let alone show that the area has a decidedly racial bias.

          • blushedbrown says:


            I don’t understand Florida. I would think they would want to clean up their image as well. On second thought they will attempt to do just that when the tourist season begins.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            corporation have “clipping services” that scan the internet for use of their names and other key words. So, a post that uses a big corporate name is likely to be seen by someone in charge or high up.

    • Jun says:

      Also you should take into question that Fogenhats’ jacket hangs past his waist, so whether or not the jacket is zipped up, a mount in MMA would also be sitting on top of the jacket, and on the stomach and body, thereby, further preventing access to the hip to draw the firearm from the hip area

      I am also guessing the holster was in the butt area, which means it would be even more difficult to draw the firearm, while mounted

      The only way to draw a firearm is if he already had the gun out, if we are to believe his MMA mount story

      Now if the defendant already had his gun out, and brandished it at Trayvon, while attacking him, that is aggravated assault for the defendant, and Trayvon would have a right to pin the defendant on the ground and yell for help

      Otherwise the only way to draw the weapon while mounted, is to use a mount escape, or mount sweep, and last time I checked, there is no shimmy shimmy ya sweep LOL

      • Xena says:

        @Jun. Your observation of the length of GZ’s jacket is profound. You are correct, if Trayvon was sitting on GZ’s chest, he would have also been sitting on GZ’s jacket preventing it from raising up or in the alternative, it would be torn.

        GZ is going to prison for the rest of his life.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      “Wow… Golly Mr. Knox, looking at your website, I have to wonder why you threw that all away, to go after a youtube video poster?” Said ALICE completely puzzled.

      Yes indeedeey Wow doesn’t begin to describe how or why he would put his own lack of attention to detail, on public display for all the world to see.

      Some is, for sure, going to begin contacting those people he lists as former clients, to see if their confidence is impacted by this affair. It can’t be helped because that’s just the nature of public exposure.

      Had he wanted join in the fray at all, he should have thoroughly researched the particular matter he intended to apply his skills to, and not go all “David & Goliath” on some little guy, whom he believed could be simply crushed with a couple of big words and a heavy load of credentials.

      It’s not to late for him to correct his work, apologize for his errors and make nice with LLMPapa in a believable way. Otherwise, expect him to quickly sink beneath the waves of credibility never to be seen again. Already he’s had to cut off comments on his blog. My guess is his competitors are already at the “palace” gates.

      Toxic GZ has ruined yet another career!

      • Xena says:

        @Lonnie Starr

        Toxic GZ has ruined yet another career!

        Yes. Sad. There is a profile of a certain Zidiot and that profile is that he is an instigator. He has ability to engage others to pick fights with “Trayvonites.” I seriously doubt that Knox surfed the internet, found LLMPapa, and developed his own opinion that being “anonymous” means having no credibility.

        Knox was used. He stepped out of his professional realm to challenge someone who he apparently believes is not worthy to untie his sandals. He should now try to save face and come clean as to how that came about and apologize for being condescending to LLMPapa.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Agreed that he should apologize and re-do the experiments and do them right this time. Unfortunately I get the impression that Mr. Knox is waaaay to Grand to humble himself, so that will not be an option for him. He’ll probably just stay silent and hope that no one noteworthy noticed his blunder. But alas that is not going to happen. His adversaries will wait until he’s seen approaching a courtroom, all prepared to do his thing in a case of some sort, then they will maliciously leak the info about his blundering saga, ideally when the camera’s are running and the limelight’s are burning.

          • cielo62 says:

            Lonnie Star- and it would serve him right,too! “You should always make your words sweet in case you ever have to eat them.”

            Sent from my iPod

  8. colin black says:

    They asked silly sally the greif expert for swamhags strange behaviour after the drowning in the back yard.

    She took to the stand apeared to be intoxicated an slurred her words.

    Jeff Ashton asked her if she had written any thesis .
    But claimed to have written sevral books /phamlets self published.
    Asked if they had been peer reveiwd.
    She said they had.
    Buy whom asked Jeff.

    Amazon she said..

  9. The Fingerprint Section at the FBI Crime Lab screwed up big time a few years ago when they misidentified a Portland, OR lawyer as the source of a fingerprint found on a suitcase or brief case that contained a bomb detonated in the Spanish Train Station terrorist explosion.

    Spain’s crime lab reviewed their work and excluded the suspect declaring the match an error.

  10. bettykath says:

    Read much of the report. Considering forensic analysis is something of a crap shoot. The error rates are unacceptable. And then there’s the problem that was found with the Boston lab where one woman just flat out faked it in hundreds of instances. Makes you wonder whether if the forensic work was done by someone who was competent, someone who is well intentioned but incompetent, or a complete fuxx-up.

  11. LLMPapa says:

    LOL, it’s been a funny afternoon.

    I’m not gonna get into a war of words with this dude, LOL. My videos simply put out the way I see things and those who don’t agree don’t have to subscribe to whatever I’m saying.

    With that said, however, I don’t disagree with his explanation of contact shot on clothes vs intermediate on skin being caused by distance. I just don’t think there was enough sag in the fabric to fully account for it AND I’m damn certain it doesn’t begin to address a clear misalignment of bullet holes.

    Forensically is my viewpoint worth much? Probably not. Am I 100% accurate right down to the millimeter? Probably not. But when there’s a clear 4-5″ misalignment between the holes in the clothing and the hole in the body, just how accurate do you really have to be to get your point across?

    I can’t do any more than show the ruler or scale next to the bullet placement. If this guy wants to actually put out there, for all the world to see, that my bullet hole placement is 5-6″ off then there’s no need for me to engage him. His problems run deeper than I ever had reason to believe.

    The vid is as accurate as I can make it.

    • xy11xy says:

      Same ruler they use in forensic lab pictures.

    • Your numbers looked solid to me.

      He’s blowin’ smoke and relying on photogrammetry to second guess your measurements.

      I call that a massive fail.

      • LLMPapa says:

        IDK, but somehow I’m not thinking I got the bullet hole too far off, LOL

        • blushedbrown says:


          Yep, I think you are way offfffff. hahahahahaah

        • Heh. Knox thought he could blow smoke and impress by being condescending and playin’ the photogrammetry card, all the while forgetting Trayvon was shot in the heart.

          BIG MISTAKE.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          We’re with you, keep going, we’ve got your back. We realize these pretenders will appear in an attempt to purloin your following if they can. There’s also the possibility that Knox was testing the waters, to see what kind of opposition he might face, if he tried to testify for the defense. Remember how MOM lamented that he had no experts in court? Well, there’s a very good reason he has no experts, GZ’s mangled story would leave them all discredited if they tried to carry water for the defense, or useless if they didn’t.

          Knox has attracted only one poster to his blog, and that guy is a detractor who has backed Mr. Knox into a corner. So much so for photogrammertry and his biofidelic cardboard bullshot!

      • LLMPapa says:

        And I’m reasonably sure 7″ is still the same as when I was a “schoolboy” with my “ruler”, LOL LOL

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          First off, he didn’t follow the correct procedure for using photogrammetry that was prescribed by it’s developer/researchers. Even then it’s only 91% correct. Not that it would have been needed, because, it requires that he start with the same procedure you used, before applying the procedure, which makes the procedure unnecessary for his purposes. SMH.

          As far as your “schoolboy ruler”, the ME used the same ruler you did. No difference in the size of the inches etc. So that the only thing wrong is Mr. Knox’s analysis.

          But keep going ‘Papa, leave Knox behind and get the rest of the parameters of the shooting demonstrated in that same space and time.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I’m with Professor on this as well. His use of photogrammetry is unnecessary, unless he’s trying to say that you are unable to find a location that is 17.5 inches below the top of the head. He takes no issue with finding the more complex horizontal location.

        Worse yet, what he’s doing is akin to someone working on the Kennedy Assassination, using the speed of the motorcade to prove that the event either could or could not be accomplished.

        Who needs that kind of single focus analysis? When you do it, we realize, it’s because you’re building towards illustrating something, by bringing the elements in one by one. Yet, even when you do focus on a single element, you do so in ways that honestly respect the existence of the remaining elements not used.

        He, Knox, on the other hand, is simply pretending that this is the way investigations are properly done. This allows him to accomplish, what the evidence would otherwise show to be impossible. Then, after accomplishing the impossible, he simply attributes the success to the impossible situation he wants everyone to think he’s extracted it from. Not good for his resume going forward. After this, I sincerely doubt any lawyer would want him on the stand on their behalf.

    • Thanks, LLMPapa. My point above was that Mr. Knox throws the term “photogrammetry” about as if it is a household name in forensics like DNA.

      The researchers at Children’s Hospital, Boston, Harvard Medical School, Craniofacial Centre, Division of Plastic Surgery, say this:

      ” Before morphometry using digital photogrammetry can be applied in clinical and research practice, it must be assessed against direct anthropometry.”

      in their article titled:

      Cleft Palate Craniofac J. 2008 May;45(3):232-9. doi: 10.1597/06-175.
      Validity and reliability of craniofacial anthropometric measurement of 3D digital photogrammetric images.

      Linked here:

      And all I am asking is that Mr. Knox provide a link to the research he has published that is peer-reviewed, showing me that his technique is valid, reliable and accepted in the scientific community, based on X number of studies, involving X number of cases and published in X number of journals. That’s it.

      I say this because the forensics self-proclaimed ‘professionals’ often designate themselves as such, simply because they can throw out a shiny new technique, but they fail to explain it and they fail to explain way said technique is valid.

      The Harvard group does surgery on children’s facial structures. Mr. Knox is apparently a ‘consultant’ in some murder cases. I would say that both groups have a lot at stake, so I want to see this guy back his claims with some solid research.

      • @CrainS, are you trying to say that Mr. Xpert doesn’t list his credentials on his website? how about his worst seller?

        Oh I know, he went to Phoenix University, but he’s missing one credit towards his certificate!
        Then he’s off to get his PHD = *doctorate certificate* 😆 LOLOL

        • PhD is Piled High and Deep until he can explain his terms so that everyone is familiar with those terms, and back his reasoning with solid published research.

          The guy here in Kentucky did something similar in my case when he blew the separation technique called liquid-liquid extraction by the jury as a diagnostic and quantification tool when it is not, and then, having their riveted attention as a person in a white coat who used fancy language, lied about not testing some blood, when, in fact, I find out, seven years later, he DID test that blood.

          I don’t trust these people until they prove otherwise, and they darn well better back their claims. Otherwise, THEY are the amateurs.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Don’t bother… It’s pretty clear that before he tried to assess what LLMPapa had done, according to the research on photogrammetry, he needed to purchase a dummy of the exact same time ‘Papa used, and start his research there, then compare that to his photogrammetry results. Otherwise, as the researchers state, his data is uselessly unreliable.

        He has revealed himself as a “witch doctor” rather than a expert or scientist.

        “Why did you do that to yourself Mr. Knox?”, asked Alice.

        “You had very little to gain and so much to lose!”, said Alice scratching her head!

    • blushedbrown says:


      >>>LOL, it’s been a funny afternoon.

      🙂 (secret smile)

    • Leelee says:

      His Photogrammetry is >BROKEN< just like his brain. He clearly depicts, with arrows and numbers, that you placed the entrance wound at 22.6 to 23.6 inches below the top of the mannequin’s head. Your photograph clearly shows 17.5 inches measured with an UNBROKEN wooden ruler.

      I am sorry but this guy is a dope and I will not let it slide.

      BTW Papa your video is way more accurate than anything that dope tries to peddle.

      • Leelee says:

        Knox says:
        “You’ll have to ask LLMPapa that question. Read my blog post again. The wound was 17.5 inches from the top of the head. He didn’t measure from the top of the mannequin’s head. The mannequin must correctly represent the size of Martin’s body”

        That there is totally UNTRUE, ( Papa did measure 17.5 from the top of his head)… and to publically perpetuate that lie on his blog in the name of forensic science is disgraceful.

        I am still waiting for him to publish my post on his blog…..somehow I am not convinced he will, but I will not let him get away with that.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Don’t worry about a thing, just keep doing what you’re doing. The so called “expert” isn’t here to illuminate anything, he’s here to obfuscate and collect attention, not to mention push a few more sales of his useless book.

      I’d also be willing to bet that, someone wants him following you, in case you get too close to the truth, he’ll be there to mangle and becloud the issues.

      The “job” you have cut out for yourself, is to provide us with illustrations based on the evidence we’re reading about. So, “WE DON’ NEED NO STINKIN EXPERTS!!!” But, as far as things stand now, you’ve already made him look rather foolish… Oh wait, scratch that, it’s he who has made himself look foolish. He thought he could just come in as a “johnny come lately” and purloin your audience while using you as a foil for his claptrap.

      Best ignore him and get on with your work. We’ll handle the heavy lifting with him.

  12. If I understand Knox correctly, he believes the entry wound and the two holes in the sweatshirts align pretty closely.

    He also does not dispute that Papa correctly marked the location on the dummy that corresponds to the aligned holes in the sweatshirts.

    Here’s the flaw in his analysis.

    He states that the distance from the top of TM’s head to the intersection of the neck and shoulder seams should be about 10.5 inches, according to his head book.

    Well, the analyst measured the distance from the shoulder seam where it connects to the neck seam at 7 inches.

    10.5 + 7 = 17.5

    According to Knox, the holes in the sweatshirts are about 17.5 inches below the top of the head.

    The ME measured the distance from the top of TM’s head to the entry wound at 17.5 inches.

    17.5 = 17.5.

    Therefore, according to Knox, the holes and the entry wound must align pretty closely, if not exactly.

    There’s a problem with that because the location of the holes in the sweatshirts at 7 inches below the intersection of the shoulder and neck seams is several inches above the heart.

    Pretty close to 3 or 4 inches above the right ventricle, IIRC.

    TM died from a gunshot wound that exploded the right ventricle.

    Papa has the position of the entry wound marked on the mannequin 3 to 4 inches below the holes in the sweatshirts and that is where the heart is located.

    That’s my quick 20/20 on the sitch.

    Game, set and match to Papa.

    And there’s still the impossibility that the defendant could have fired the fatal shot while lying on his back, given the trajectory of the shot and the required location of the muzzle and position of the gun.


    EDIT: I didn’t read Knox’s analysis far enough. The 10.5 inch number that he used was derived from Tilley (his source with no page reference, BTW). He said, “the top-of-head to chin distance of a 50 percentile, 17-year-old male–standing only 5’6″ compared to Martin’s 5’11”–is 8.3 inches. With the neck, the vertical distance from the top of the head to the top of the shoulder would be about 10.5 inches (Tilley, 2002).”

    He went on to say that he used photogrammetry to measure the distance in the video from the top of the mannequin’s head to the intersection of the shoulder and neck seams. He concluded that the distance was 12.6 inches.

    He added the 7 inches, which is the distance from the intersection of the shoulder and neck seams to the aligned holes in the sweatshirts (12.6 + 7 = 19.6), which is 19.6 inches.

    Notice that distance already exceeds the total distance of 17.5 inches, which is the distance between the top of Trayvon’s head and the entry wound, as measured by the ME during the autopsy.

    However, Papa told us that he placed the entry wound 17.5 inches below the top of the mannequin’s head.

    I am not impressed with the reliability and accuracy of photogrammetry and the results that Knox claims to have obtained conflict with what Papa told us as well human biology because if Knox’s measurements are correct, the holes in the sweatshirts would be below the heart.

    Add the additional 3 to 4 inches between the aligned holes in the sweatshirts and the entry wound on the mannequin, as determined by Papa, and the entry wound would be 7 to 8 inches below the heart.

    Massive fail by Knox.

    H/T to Lee Lee for getting my attention. She was right.

    • Leelee says:

      Thank you Professor,

      In his article Knox claims :
      “Using a scaled frame from LLMPapa’s video, one can employ photogrammetry to measure the distances involved. As you can see, the distance from the top of the mannequin’s head to the shoulder seam is actually 12.6 inches. If you add to that the seven inches down to the holes in the garments plus the three to four inches of misalignment LLMPapa claims, he has, in fact, placed the bullet entrance wound 22.6 to 23.6 inches below the top of the mannequin’s head–five to six inches below where it should be.”

      BUT as seen in Papa’s picture I posted above…Papa has the bullet entrance at 17.5 from the top of the head not at 22-23 inches as Knox claims.

      Just another reason I cannot accept Knox’s credentials as an EXPERT.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        This is getting funny. A photogrammetry, how about a ruler.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          No self respecting faux expert would use “ruler”, it has to be “photogammetrix-ishtician-ologically-fragilistic!” So there LLMPapa!!!
          Na na na na na naaah! Now that’s a proper expert response! 😀

          • blushedbrown says:

            @Lonnie said…..

            No self respecting faux expert would use “ruler”, it has to be “photogammetrix-ishtician-ologically-fragilistic!” So there LLMPapa!!!
            Na na na na na naaah! Now that’s a proper expert response! 😀

            I just love it!

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr. Just to think. Knox conveys that teachers wasted their time teaching students how to use and read schoolhouse rulers. Just imagine, all the knitting and crocheting I’ve done measuring with a schoolhouse ruler. Maybe Knox rulers are sold on ebay??

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Well, you’d think he’d post a picture of his non-schoolboy ruler on his website, if only to tamp down the peals of laughter coming from his peers.

      • Knox’s analysis is heartless because he ignores the location of the heart, which is exactly where Papa placed the entrance wound.

        And he claims to be a doctoral candidate.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Where’s our wordsmiths? We need to develop a good word for Expert-Bullshotologist that ‘Papa can use to offset photogrammetry, in this crime scene experts investigatory race to the bottom. 😀
          Let’s make this good, look for well grounded Latin, Greek and middle English prefixes, suffixes and roots.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Exactly why the series is named “Cardboard and Bullshot!” 😀

      • You know what, Leelee?

        I hope the defense hires this guy. We don’t want to be too rough around the edges by pointing out that maybe the guy doesn’t know where the heart is located. Yeah, maybe O’Mara will go ahead and hire the guy.


    • lurker says:

      I think that the issue is that the distance from the shoulder seam down the chest is not a straight shot. It would curve backwards over the shoulder. The measure from top of head to bullet wound in chest would have been a straight shot. So, for the two to align, the sum of head to shoulder plus shoulder seam to bullet hole would have to be GREATER than the 17.5 inches.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        You have it right, but not in the correct order. The ME first measured the location of the wound on the naked body, first using the top of the head as a reference for down. Next the ME used the center chest as a reference for the horizontal offset. He then notes that the center of the void is one quarter inch below the nipple center.

        Next, the holes in the clothing cannot be measured properly if the clothing is draped on the body. So the clothing is removed from the body, laid flat, and the nearest seams are used to locate the center of the void. For the top down measurement, the ME uses the shoulder seam, where it intersects the collar. Then another seam (can’t remember which right off hand) to locate the distance across.

        After these measurements are taken, then the clothing can be draped on the body and the differences in locations of the voids in the cloth are measured for their distance from the holes in the body.

        So, when we note that the holes in the clothing are 4-5 inches away from the holes in the body, and we know that at the time the shot was fired, these voids had to all be lined up, we can determine which way the materials had to be moved, to accomplish lining them up.

        What LLMPapa has done is, he has failed to lean the mannequin far enough forward to allow the garments to sag as much as possible. But, there’s a very good reason why he should not do this. To see why, try doing a push up, then imagine a 204 lb man under you. How much room is there between the two of you?

        Is there enough room for the person on the bottom to get their hand, holding a gun, between the two of you? If so, then can they take a straight in shot with no angle into the body on top? Is there also enough room such that the gun doesn’t touch the chest of the person on top? And finally can the garments be pulled down and to the left, such that they are 3 to 4 inches away from the chest of the person on top? Obviously not a chance. There simply isn’t enough room. So Trayvon cannot be leaning far enough forward that his clothing can have a maximum droop, and still leave room for a non-contact shot with both garments and the body.

        Thus Mr. Expert is either no expert at all, or he’s just making things up to garner a bit of fame and perhaps plug his book. LLMPapa is going to take him down. Just you wait ‘enry ‘iggens, just you wait! LOL!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Not really. Think about it. When you go to the doctor’s office and they take your height, they put that level on the top of your head and read the scale. That gives them your height from the top of your head to the bottom of the soles of your shoes, unless you remove them. The ME does the same, he has a ruler that’s something like a ruler with a blade on it. He’ll place the blade on the top of the head and read at the center of the void or wound. None of the bodies volumetric features are involved.

    • bettykath says:

      After reading his book, I found Knox to be an expert-lite. After reading his analysis of LLMpapa’s video on the location of the entry wound, he is an expert-not. I don’t claim to be an expert but Knox’ analysis doesn’t pass the common sense test.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      My take exactly Professor. Plus the distances to the holes in the garments are measured without a body inside. When the body is inserted into the garments, they expand in three dimensions and that takes up material, which raises them higher. The holes in the garments must be measured relative to the garments features because garments can move.

      Perhaps Knox is a former CSI Lab expert? LOL

    • Jun says:

      1 reason you can not take his credentials as real is he never conducted his test using gravity for the shot, therefore, it is inaccurate simulation

      since his cardboard cutout with a tshirt on it was supposed to represent Trayvon’s hoodie and undershirt and Knox held it in front of the target by hand, it can only be concluded that the hoodie and undershirt was held in front of the victim when the victim was shot

      If you use common sense and look at the holes in the actual pieces of clothing from the state, the bulletholes are clearly close to the left shoulder of the victim

      The GSW is just about an inch above the solar plexus

      the trajectory was straight front to back

      the only way to line up the bullet holes with the GSW is by a forceful grip to pull the shirts down and to the right of the victim, to line it up with the trajectory

  13. colin black says:

    Oh oh an mr expert used a real gun an everything.
    No problem with recoil for him as his moobs.
    Act as shock absorbers.
    There still wobbleing like a pair of jellys.
    One in each hand of a waiter shakeing like a leaf.

    As he aproaches mr experts table that this time the portions sizes will be to his likeing.

  14. Leelee says:

    Knox responds to Papa’s videos…. This, coming from the so-called expert who shoots a cardboard target standing up with arms fully extended……smh

    • Hate to break the bad news to this complete fucking hack named Knox, but him waving his hands in front of his fat body is not science.

      • Leelee says:

        Knox is a disgrace to the science of forensic.

      • Knox asks:

        “Oh, and, by the way, LLMPapa: when you made Part 3, did you ever consider that your mannequin is not biofidelic?”

        Mr. Knox:

        When you were waving your fat hands in front of your fat body while running your mouth about weight and gravity, why were you so afraid to apply the actual formulas of physics to back your running, unqualified mouth?

      • Leelee says:

        Knox : “Perhaps LLMPapa’s mannequin does not correctly represent Trayvon Martin’s build”.

        But your cardboard cut-out does, Mr. Knox ?

      • By the way, Mr. Knox. It doesn’t make any fucking difference whether or not the mannequin was “biofidelic,” because the conversation involves events, distances, clothing, marking and alignments OUTSIDE the human body. Think you can possibly get any more pathetic? LLMPapa waas not teaching ACLS, retrograde intubation, or emergency cricothyrotomy, you dumbass!

    • xy11xy says:

      He comes to the conclusion that those who praise his conclusions are objective:

      While most objective observers have praised these findings,…

      And he suggests that LLMPapa’s anonymity makes him suspicious:

      Among those who argue in favor of Zimmerman’s conviction is an amateur videographer who, cloaked in anonymity, refers to himself on YouTube only as “LLMPapa”.

      The subtext being that his – Knox’s – non-anonymity makes him trustworthy.

      Then he says this:

      While many have praised LLMPapa for his analysis, as of yet, LLMPapa’s findings have gone largely unchallenged. In the world of anonymous Internet video posting, such challenges are typically pooh-poohed by the recipient and his supporters in rambling, profanity-laced diatribes typed from the comfort and protection of one’s living room.

      He pooh-poohs LLMPapa’s challenge of his analysis, and again suggests that he’s suspicious because he’s anonymous, while predicting that his rebuttal will be pooh-poohed by LLMPapa and his supporters.

      Rank appeal to authority:

      In court, however–the venue I am accustomed to working in–one must actually withstand often rigorous cross-examination and scrutiny of one’s work. Welcome to the world of forensic science, LLMPapa.

      Plain old-school insult:

      Perhaps LLMPapa has difficulty measuring accurately with his schoolboy ruler.

      Again, appeal to authority by tossing out jargon:

      Oh, and, by the way, LLMPapa: when you made Part 3, did you ever consider that your mannequin is not biofidelic? What happens when you reach your arms out in front of you?

      My conclusion: This guy’s a jerk. He’s a jerk who took a whole lotta time to respond to a YouTube “amateur videographer” who – based on his appeals to authority – is not fit to walk a step in his own well-heeled shoes.

      Well, LLMPapa, you had to go and jam your finger in the eye of a very proud man, didn’t you?

      You done did it now!

      • Cercando Luce says:

        “If you can’t dazzle’em with brilliance, baffle’em with bullshit,” as BIOFIDELIC (5 syllables, count ’em!), and “PHOTOGRAMMETRY” (5 more!).

      • He’s trustworthy though, because he used the word BIOFIDELIC.


        *tea out the nose*

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Hahaha… He fails to note that LLMPapa doesn’t need a biofidelic
          mannequin, because when the shot was taken, the evidence says that Trayvon most likely had his hands down at his sides. If he had raised his hands, that would have raised his garments, negating the force pulling them down. The holes in the garments would have had a more pronounced horizontal displacement in that case. In this case the horizontal displacement is negligible while the vertical displacement is much greater.

          We’ll see.

      • Malisha says:

        His response was ad hominem, but he did not defend his work on any of the grounds that were criticized by LLMPapa! He said he has to defend his work in court without being anonymous but he did NOT defend any part of his work! He was wrong, LLMPapa pointed it out, and Knox’s only answer was “Boo on you,” not, “let me show you how this works so you’ll understand.”

        A jury will see right through his nonsense, moobs or not. He and Fogen can gesture roundly to each other from now until the cows come home and it still won’t make him credible.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I wonder if he could be angling for a job on MOM’s team? Bet he could use a 40k payday himself eh? I note, for an expert, his blog isn’t very heavily trafficked, in fact he’s only got one poster and he’s giving him hell, hahahaha.

      • Really good points. Plus, what kind of a ruler was Mr. Expert using when he analyzed the straight-through trajectory? Oh, I get it. A non-schoolboy ruler. Wow, since he uses big words AND a non-schoolboy RULER, I have to believe every word.

        • xy11xy says:


          Yeah. A ruler is a ruler is a ruler…

          Besides I think the forensic measurements are rounded to one decimal place precision? …If memory serves.

          The “Schoolboy” ruler will suffice…no micrometer necessary.

        • xy11xy says:

          @ Crane-Station


          Yeah. A ruler is a ruler is a ruler…

          Besides I think the forensic measurements are rounded to one decimal place precision? …If memory serves.

          The “Schoolboy” ruler will suffice…no micrometer necessary.

          I do believe Mr. Expert used a schoolboy ruler himself…

      • How many inches is an inch on Mr. Expert’s ruler? Is an inch not an inch anymore then?

      • Xena says:

        @xy11xy (((((Applause)))))

        Apparently, Knox does not relate to juries. Biofidelic??? Is cardboard biofidelic? If not, then how can Knox represent that his experiment is more factual than LLMPapa’s? Also, Knox fired the shot while standing up, which contradicts his opinion that Trayvon was leaning over GZ. For Knox to be credible, he should have gotten on his back and fired that shot — with one hand.

      • @xy11xy, Hi! It’s you! i posted some of your YouTube videos!
        I thought i recognized your screen name so i checked YouTube! I’m miamidecor.
        BTW, everyone really likes those *deep*, psychoanalytical videos! Gotta check and see what you’ve been up to again.

        And i love how you dissected Mr Expert up there. You have such interesting observations..Thank you so much!

        • xy11xy says:


          Hi Shannon. Nice to make your acquaintance again…

          I’m not making vids for the next little while because I have hardware issues again..

          Hope to be up and running soon…if problems not too catastrophic.

          Stubborn about disposable hardware…determined to fix.

      • Jun says:

        LMAO at the comments

        “is cardboard bio fidelic?”

    • Cercando Luce says:

      “Photogrammetry,” pshaw.

      Poor Mr Knox fails to explain why the bullet hole was L-shaped, and why Mr Knox himself could only get similar results to gz’s shot by firing while standing upright a short distance away.

      • Papa caught him with his pants down in flagrante delicto, so to speak.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Good heavens! and what, exactly, was he doing?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Well, he’s trying to say that he was baiting a popular poster to get more hits on his site as well as publish more books.

          If I had to guess, I’d guess that LLMPapa put the entrance wound right, after all he did make a video about the 17.5 inches iirc. Placement of the clothing holes, has to be made relative to the seams, because the cloth can move around.

          One very big mistake Knox is making, that I can see is, he’s claiming that the clothing can sag more if Trayvon’s arms are extended out in front of him, because that brings his shoulders closer together and allows for bigger sag down.

          To see the trouble this will create, simply get down on the floor and do a push up. Now, visualize a 204lb GZ under you. Where is the room for him to place his gun against your garments, without also pressing the garments back up against your body? As you can see, there simply isn’t enough room, and since GZ’s forearm can’t bend in the middle, there’s no way for him to draw it back, far enough to make an intermediate distant shot. … And that’s even before we get to discussing how he gets a straight in shot with no angle.

          Knox may get a few brownie points over some measurement issue, but in the overall he’s going to have to either concede that GZ could not have fired with his back on the ground, or look rather foolish for all the world to see.

          It’s going to be an interesting week as Blushbrown has already said.

      • Obtaining measurements from photographs and waving your arms around in front of your body, and using cardboard cutouts, plus, giving your name, means it is really really reliable.

        Peer-reviewed and published in a PubMed Forensic PATHOLOGY journal or it didn’t happen, Mr. Knox. How many studies have you done, where is your data, and when and where was it published, AND how many subjects were involved? Co-published with a trauma surgeon or a forensic pathologist, connected to your University, perhaps?

      • Mr. Knox, I cannot find anything that you have published in PubMed. Can you please direct us to your article, like this one from Harvard, for example, that discusses photogrammetry, please? I can only find you quoted in an internet crime scene magazine.

        The one from Harvard addresses a different area, from the clinical side of medicine. Where is your research-based and peer-reviewed equivalent? Surely you have published. You say you are a professional forensics consultant, after all. And you claim you don’t use a school boy ruler. Link? Thank you.

        Validity and reliability of craniofacial anthropometric measurement of 3D digital photogrammetric images.

      • Xena says:

        @Cercando Luce. There you go!!! Knox talks like the jury is going to be educated in his mumbo-jumbo.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Mr. Knox Fox Sox is a big, fat fake who knows a little but apparently has no academic cred. He’s set himself up as an expert and has apparently gotten away with it so far!

    • Leelee says:

      Here is some more about the so-called EXPERT KNOX……

      So much for Knox’s claims of his “Photogrammetry” expertise, with regards to Papa’s measurements, lol. Papa has it right !!!

      Is Knox for real ?

      Here is a picture of Papa’s measurements :

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        LLMPapa’s measurements are spot on, he’s even got 17.5 directly on center as it should be. The holes in the garments were measured relative to the seams, just as the autopsy report indicates. Knox is playing with the measurements, that’s going to go against him and make him look very foolish, because, an amateur can be forgiven small errors, an expert professional cannot.

    • lurker says:

      I look forward to LLMPapa’s response. The main question that Knox raises has to do with the accuracy of placement of the bullet-wound on the mannequin. I’ll have to go back and watch again, but I’m certain that an explanation will follow.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Mr. Expert, really stepped into it with a deep foot. “17.5 inches below the top of the head”, is not a very difficult location to find. He’d have had better luck using the horizontal measurement to get his required confusion. That said, I sincerely hope he hasn’t testified at any trials, or defendants will be calling for their lawyers to submit this new, impeachment, material in their cases.

    • Xena says:

      Know wrote on his blog:

      In the world of anonymous Internet video posting, such challenges are typically pooh-poohed by the recipient and his supporters in rambling, profanity-laced diatribes typed from the comfort and protection of one’s living room.

      Mr.Knox, evidently you have not experienced the real world of, not simply people who disagree with you, but people who are hateful and dedicated to destroying you. You see, before you critiqued LLMPapa’s demonstrations, you wrote condescending comments about him. That is not professional., IMO In your courtroom testimonies, do you criticize the opposing party before giving your expert opinion?

      You should see some comments sent to my blog by “anonymous internet” users disparaging LLMPapa with abusive, profanity laced language, the accusations in which I will not mention.

      Now, if anonymous people sitting behind their computers do such things to other anonymous people who you say do so from their living rooms, then what do you think they will do if knowing their REAL personal information?

      By the way, I happen to have an office in my house, and it’s not in the basement either.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        He’s just stuck with a denigrating stereotype, created during the Bush Administration to paint their apparent lack of support as coming from a bunch of losers. As if those who opposed the wars, the deregulation and lack of enforcement of the regulations they could not overturn, were all ignorant ne’re dowells posting from basements in their parents homes. That was never the case and it was insulting multitudes for them to say so.

    • whonoze says:

      Zimmerman’s bullet shredded Martin’s left ventricle. The spot LLMPapa marked for the entrance wound on the mannequin is immediately frontal to the left ventricle. I’m 6 ft. tall. I measured 17.5 inches down from the top of my head, and it marked a spot just below my left nipple, exactly the spot LLMPapa marked, and exactly as described in the autopsy. A bullet passing straight through the holes in the clothing would have entered the body well above the nipple and thus either gone through the top of Martin’s atria, or gone above the heart itself altogether.

      Conclusion: Knox is a tool, backpeddling with ‘fuzzy math’, and LLMPapa got it right.

  15. Here is my executive of the complaint I will file with ASCLD/LAB regarding the lying sack of shit lab analyst Ryan Johnson, who testified in my case in Kentucky:

    • “Executive” should read “executive summary.”

    • Two sides to a story says:

      More power to you, Crane.

      This lack of quality in criminal labs is alarming. Good thing there are groups like Forensic Justice project and new guidelines. Of course things can still go wrong, as in your case, and others in which police and labs are fo-shizz.

      • My case is not the first one where Kentucky labs have been busted for their lying, fake-ass unqualified, science flunk-out, cop wannabe, total fucking hacks..

      • Two sides to a story says:

        And sadly, probably won’t be anywhere near the last. I love it that you’re fighting them tooth and nail. So many people give in.

  16. Comparing hairs visually using a stereo microscope has been debunked by mitochondrial DNA testing and no longer regarded as a proper testing method.

    Results obtained using that method should be disregarded. The methodology is so error prone that it should not even be used as a screening method to determine whether to do mitochondrial testing.

  17. Trained Observer says:

    Regarding Randolph Jonakait’s call for forensic science regulation: Hen’s Teeth and Horses Toes (Page 138) caught my attention … 🙂

  18. lurker says:

    I’m just getting caught up over the weekend and reviewing LLMPapa’s videos. I also looked at one other recent one entitled “fistful” in which Z. is describing the gunshot and his left hand is curled into a fist apparently holding something close to him (like, perhaps a sweatshirt). What caught my attention, however, was the recoil as he described the shot. He doesn’t allow his hands to fully jerk backwards, of course, but take a good look at what would be in their path if there was truly a powerful recoil. Right hand would cacontact the left hand and bounce backwards to the face. Landing right about in the NOSE area.

  19. Trained Observer says:

    Any clue on whether Fogen and Mrs. Fogen hiding out together … or separately? Prosecution must be turning heat up on her to spill what she knows, if she wants to get out of this without becoming a convicted felon.

    • xy11xy says:

      I was wondering the same thing…if they’re still living together.

      I can’t imagine how Shellie could stand to be cooped up with George knowing he’s the cause of her misery. Now she knows her perjury case will not be dismissed and must face the music.

      She could, potentially, make most of her troubles go away if she informs on him.

      Can wives inform on husbands?

      I anticipate George’s rebuttal to a potential wife informant: “She’s a liar!”

      • Trained Observer says:

        Of the two, I suspect Fogen’s got her beat hands down on the shameless lying front.

      • jm says:

        xy11xy: “I can’t imagine how Shellie could stand to be cooped up with George knowing he’s the cause of her misery. Now she knows her perjury case will not be dismissed and must face the music.”

        By her manner during taped prison phone calls it seems SZ had a mind of her own. By her phoned in testimony regarding finances she seemed very self-assured. Watching her appearance in court she seemed not humbled by the experience of being charged with perjury.

        In summary I believe SZ and GZ belong together. They are 2 cheap lying cons with what appears to be no remorse living off of other people’s money.

        That’s just my humble opinion based on the little I know about SZ and also I like to believe women have minds of their own.

        • xy11xy says:

          Shells may have been born with a mind of her own, but at some point signed it over to Georgie.

          Re her manner at perjury hearing:
          Yep. Chin up in the air. The tiniest of smiles. Maybe Shellie thinks lawyers can solve all problems.

          I want her to INFORM!

          I just don’t know if her testimony would be admissible if she’s married to George.

          As pointed out by Prof. Leatherman, her attorney said she’s getting stronger every day… That is an intriguing comment.

          Does that mean she was weak before? Has he explained the situation to her, and what she could do to save herself? Does getting stronger mean she might INFORM?

          I know Shellie is not a “girl’s girl” in the sense that she suggested George’s ex was lying about his past domestic violence.

          I’m not trying to make friends with Shellie. I want her to INFORM!

          • jm says:

            “Shells may have been born with a mind of her own, but at some point signed it over to Georgie.”

            I think SZ was greedy and was willing to lie. She doesn’t seem to have much motivation to succeed in life as evident by her at-home status I believe for at least 2 years so this new-found wealth was great news for her.

            I also want her to INFORM because as I see it standing by her man and her lies is creating nothing but a deadend for her. At worst she is convicted felon . At best she is a known liar forever associated with the killer of Trayvon Martin and probably unemployable.

            The only reason I can see for her not to inform, is because she may know way more than she wants to admit as far as the shooting.

  20. colin black says:

    elcymoo says:

    March 4, 2013 at 10:30 am

    I think I read at the GZlegal site that the defendant had waived his right to attend this hearing
    Due to miss managment of funds foggens electric supply is also on curfew.
    So not enought time to plug in an juice up his rascall….

  21. elcymoo says:

    I think I read at the GZlegal site that the defendant had waived his right to attend this hearing.

    • lurker says:

      If I were O’Mara, I wouldn’t be exactly eager to have Z. sitting there in court looking like a roly-poly.

      • jm says:

        GZ looks like he is self-indulgent, overeating on other people’s money and has crazy eyes as if he can’t keep track of his self-defense story.

        Not a good TV image for a guy who wants people to keep contributing to his defense/living expense fund.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Now that this is the second time he’s waived his right to appear, I’m beginning to think it’s a defense strategy for all the reasons mentioned.

    • parrot says:

      Interesting that the client who, in O’mara’s words, always ‘calls the shots’ is waiving his presence.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Gee, I sorta, kinda like CSI even despite what Martz did at the OJ trial.

    • cielo62 says:

      I guess he couldn’t find a new suit in his size?

      • Xena says:


        I guess he couldn’t find a new suit in his size?

        He didn’t have money to buy a larger suit. ShelLIE needed a new outfit and money to do her hair for court, remember? LOL!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        He may feel more comfortable passing up court dates, but psychologically he’s building hurdles for himself, against the days when his appearance will be compulsory. If he kept attending, even when he did not, he would not have the idea that the compulsory attendances were restrictive, since he would be able to tell himself that he’d be attending anyway, compulsory or not. This way he’s cementing the idea in his mind that he’s only going to be in court when it is compulsory. Meaning that he’s losing control and being compelled. It may seem a small thing but, there’s little that is really small in the world of psychology. Nor are compulsory things among them.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Boy am I getting tired of seeing words and/or letters dropped in transmission, corrupting posts. look for the [ ]’s

          He may feel more comfortable passing up court dates, but psychologically he’s building hurdles for himself, against the days when his appearance will be compulsory. If he kept attending, even when he did not [have to], he would not have the idea that the compulsory attendances were restrictive, since he would be able to tell himself that he’d be attending anyway, compulsory or not. This way he’s cementing the idea in his mind that he’s only going to be in court when it is compulsory. Meaning that he’s losing control and being compelled. It may seem a small thing but, there’s little that is really small in the world of psychology. Nor are compulsory things among them.

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