Do not fail to see the forest for the trees in Zimmerman case

Sunday, March 3, 2013

Greetings to everyone.

I write today to present a simple theory of the case that illustrates the KISS rule.

The prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed murder in the second degree when he killed Trayvon Martin. That is, that shooting Trayvon was “an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.” See 782.04(2), Fla.Stat.

The jury will be provided with these definitions to apply in deciding whether the prosecution satisfied its burden of proof:

An “act” includes a series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose.

An act is “imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind” if it is an act or series of acts that:

1. a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and

2. is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and

3. is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.

In order to convict of Second Degree Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove the defendant had an intent to cause death.

(Florida Supreme Court Pattern Jury Instruction 7.4)

Notice that the prosecution is not required to prove that the defendant intended to kill Trayvon or that he violated any law by following him.

Notice too that, given this set of definitions, the killing would constitute an act “imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life,” if the jury finds that the prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense.

For the following reasons, I believe that the evidence will establish beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was the aggressor.

We can tell from the NEN recording that he got out of his vehicle to follow Trayvon because he admitted that he did.

He also agreed not to follow him when the dispatcher told him “We don’t need you to do that.”

We know that he lost Trayvon because he admitted that he did not know where he was after he said, “He ran.”

We know that he was frustrated and feared Trayvon would escape because he said, “fucking coons” (or punks, if you prefer) and “these assholes, they always get away.”

We know that he disregarded the dispatcher’s admonition to not follow Trayvon because he asked the dispatcher to tell the officer en route to call him on his cell phone after he arrived in the neighborhood, instead of agreeing to meet him at a specific location, such as the clubhouse or his parked vehicle.

We know he lied to the police when he said Trayvon emerged from behind some bushes and jumped him at the T-intersection of the sidewalks as he was walking back to his parked vehicle because there are no bushes there. Also, Trayvon’s body and the spent shell casing ejected from his KelTec 9 semiautomatic were found 40 feet south of the T-intersection, which is inconsistent with his claim that the shooting occurred where he was knocked to the ground.

There are many other problems with the defendant’s statements that we have identified and discussed ad nauseum. Suffice to say that the evidence I have mentioned here is sufficient to establish that the defendant followed Trayvon in his vehicle, lost him when Trayvon ran out of sight behind a row of townhouses, got out of his vehicle, ran after him with the intent of finding him and preventing his escape, and subsequently lied to police when he denied following him insisting instead that Trayvon jumped him at the T-intersection as he was walking back to his vehicle.

Since he was hunting with the intent of preventing this particular “fucking coon” (or fucking punk, if you prefer) and this particular “asshole” from getting away and lied about that to the police, I do not believe the jury will have any difficulty concluding that he killed Trayvon during an attempt to prevent him from getting away.

However, the defendant had no legal cause to touch, much less physically restrain Trayvon.

Trayvon, on the other hand, had the legal right to use reasonable force to resist the defendant’s use of force to restrain him.

Nevertheless, I do not believe Trayvon attempted to hit the defendant or slam his head against a cement sidewalk because no trace of the defendant’s blood or DNA was found on his fingernail clippings or on the lower sleeves of the two sweatshirts he was wearing. Even if he did, however, the injuries were minor and required no stitches and the defendant declined several offers by EMTs and police to take him to the ER for a check-up.

Those minor injuries were insufficient to create a reasonable fear in the defendant’s mind that he was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury. This conclusion is amply supported by his vital signs, which were all normal a mere 15 minutes after the shooting.

If I were the judge deciding this case instead of a jury, I would enter the following Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law based on the evidence I have discussed.


1. the defendant created the situation that ended with Trayvon’s death;

2. the defendant never told Trayvon who he was or that he was a neighborhood watch person, despite at least two opportunities to do so as noted by Investigator Chris Serino in his capias request;

3. Trayvon was a guest staying at Brandi Green’s residence and had a right to be where he was at all times relevant to this tragedy;

4. the defendant believed Trayvon was “up to no good” even though Trayvon was not engaged in any suspicious activity;

5. The defendant followed Trayvon first in his vehicle and then on foot with the intent of preventing him from escaping from the neighborhood as other “fucking coons” (or fucking punks, if you prefer) and “assholes” had done in the past.

6. The defendant was the aggressor and had no legal basis or reason to touch, much less use any force against Trayvon to restrain or detain him for any purpose;

7. Trayvon would have been justified in using reasonably necessary force to stand his ground and prevent the use of force against him, including using deadly force since deadly force was used against him.

8. There is no credible evidence that Trayvon ever struck or injured the defendant, but if he did, his use of force was lawful and justified in self-defense.

9. The defendant’s injuries were minor and he was never in imminent danger of death or suffering serious injury.


1. The defendant was the aggressor at all times relevant to this confrontation and his use of force was unlawful.

2. The defendant’s aggressive course of conduct and his use of deadly force by shooting Trayvon Martin in the heart without lawful justification was an act “imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life.”

3. The defendant committed the crime of Murder in the Second degree.

In conclusion, I want everyone to realize that arguments regarding whether the dispatcher had the authority to order the defendant to not follow Trayvon, or whether the defendant violated any law by following Trayvon, are irrelevant.

The relevant issues are what did the defendant do and what did he intend to do when he did it. For example, it does not matter whether the dispatcher had the legal authority to order him to not follow Trayvon. What matters is that he agreed not to follow Trayvon while he was running after him, he kept on hunting for him until he found him, and then he lied about it to the police because he wanted them to believe he had complied with the dispatcher’s request.

Do not fail to see the forest for the trees.

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129 Responses to Do not fail to see the forest for the trees in Zimmerman case

  1. Lonnie Starr says:

    Those minor injuries were insufficient to create a reasonable fear in the defendant’s mind that he was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury. This conclusion is amply supported by his vital signs, which were all normal a mere 15 minutes after the shooting.

    Further evidence of the insufficiency of the claimed attack to even appear to be lethal is provided by the defendant’s own testimony that he was looking around and observing the conduct of witnesses who were arriving, while the claimed lethal attack was in progress.

    Nor should we forget that GZ had no authority, right, permission or reason to follow Trayvon in such a way as to cause Trayvon to become concerned for his own safety.

    The defendant admits that he detected Trayvon’s concern for his own safety, by his attempt to characterize Trayvon’s fear filled attempt to flee, as an attempt to “escape” and he also attempts to minimize and cover over the obvious element of fear Trayvon’s flight expressed, by referring to it as “skipping and moving quickly away, but without fear”.

    Obviously GZ cannot say that Trayvon was not filled with fear, after discovering that an unknown person in a vehicle was displaying a strange and unexplained interest in his progress. GZ seeks to assure us that his unexplained actions did not cause his victim — the deceased who cannot now dispute this claim — to fear for himself. (the Sean Hannity Show).

    • Cercando Luce says:

      How nice it would be, if the statements made for the “Sean Hannity Show” turned out to be what convinced the jury of the defendant’s depraved indifference for human life.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        That’s quite possible, in my opinion. That interview was the point of no more empathy for Fogen’s suffering for me.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The SP took that interview into evidence for a reason. I expect that they’ve used it to prepare something to use, if a situation should arise that requires it.

          |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Twosidestoastory, that was when he lost most of his support base. he is getting what he deserves and then some. some people finally came to their senses and, saw right through him and his multitudes of lies when he did that interview. he actually thought he had hit the mother lode when he did that interview. now he see’s exactly where it got him. NO WHERE!

  2. fauxmccoy says:


  3. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< KISS and tell him goodbye!

  4. kllypyn says:

    He also killed trayvon while he begged for his life.

    • Beautiful, Papa.

      Beautiful work.

      Cain’t wait for the next part.

    • blushedbrown says:


      Outstanding work! I am anxiously awaiting for the next installment.
      Thank you for all your hard work.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I feel tears of gratitude to you, LLMPapa. Bless you!

    • racerrodig says:

      You’re turning this guy into ground round. The term the kids use today comes to mind…..”Owned”

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Heat up the barbecue, break out the condiments!

        • racerrodig says:

          I’m having a “Celebratory Conviction BBQ” when he’s convicted. I have quite a few coming…..all members of Team Trayvon are invited. Rib’s ‘n Chicken !!

          I’m so confidant my wife & I started to stock up already. Thank God I have that extra freezer !

    • Tzar says:

      It’s all been said already 🙂

    • Jun says:

      I think the main mistake made by this “expert” is he made the evidence read what he wanted, instead of letting the evidence tell him the story

      Song Ci, Father of Forensic Science

      “Should there be any inaccuracy in an autopsy report, injustice would remain with the deceased as well as the living. A wrongful death sentence without justice may claim one or more additional lives, which would in turn result in feuds and revenges, prolonging the tragedy. In order to avoid any miscarriage of justice, the coroner must immediately examine the case personally.”

      • racerrodig says:

        Maybe he should have some statement in there where he says
        “…O’ Mara wanted me to show…….”

    • type1juve says:

      Great work!

    • nocamo33 says:

      Props Papa. You should email to Tony Pipitone and see what his response is. I sent him your first one. He responded that they had already considered a lot of what you said. Bologna. You just pulled their pants down. MSM is snoozing at the wheel. Comforting enough for me to know you all are here. Hopefully the prosecution will be just as astute and the jury will see both Zimmerman and Trayvon just as they truly are. JFT.

    • That’s so scary Papa. and you even got Trayvon’s sized mannequin. it looks like the standard fashion form so they’re very skinny with a longer torso, even males.
      you got it on point. and it’s really scary to see those holes in the shirt like that.
      as usual, you keep outdoing yourself.

  5. Tzar says:

    great post
    this case still makes me shake my head
    consider that the average person should have been sobered up out of their cop fantasy from the simple question of “Are you following him?” and the internal self query of “wait WTF am I doing?” should have been followed by the external answer of, “uh…you know what? no, I’m not following him, I’m just going back to my car, you guys can meet m there, Im’ right near the clubhouse on TTL”.

    But George was so cock sure of his right to loom over this suspect, who as we all know was just a kid going home to watch the game with his step brother, that he answered, what I can only imagine must seem woefully naive to him at this point , “yes”.

    • racerrodig says:

      I was on a NW from 80 to 88 where we used to live. You could NOT drive around looking. You could walk and watch, but not follow. There were no cell phones back then so most of the watching I did while reading a magazine on the front steps.

      At one point the police upgraded their walkie talkies to the belt units with the mic. on a cord that is clipped to the shoulder or pocket and they used an alternate channel and allowed the NW guys the use of 1 older unit.

      The couple of times someone saw something and called in, the one thing we always heard was “……just stay where you are…a unit is on the way” I did break that “hubcap theft ring” by calling in back in 82. Of course I could have Fogenized the guy by throwing rocks at him, but I was afraid of scratching my neighbors car as the guy was prying on one of the hubcaps.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Sort of like the guy who shoots up a shoplifter’s vehicle at Walmart and thinks he’s helping the cops . . .

    • nocamo33 says:

      Sad thing is, I think the police and his HOA gave him the confidence to behave as he did. Read mandate.

      • Malisha says:

        SPD enabled Fogen to kill. It’s simple. It’s worse than stupid; it’s evil. Let me say it again: SPD enabled Fogen to kill.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Malisha, indeed they did, indeed they did, and they are just as responsible for this kid being dead as he is. I hope he is sentenced to the maximum and then some. there are a few more people who should go down with this sinking yacht as well. namely Fisher, Wolfinger and Z SR. they should all be facing some prison time of their own.

  6. Tommy'sMom says:

    Excellent post as usual. I sincerely hope the state lays it out just as you have.

  7. colin black says:

    ps above your post is the first Ive seen that his permit was invalid is what I mean.
    That would be huge headline makeing info i m o.
    More important than bogus death threats cause weight gain bs .
    The m s m been spouting .

  8. Chocolate Diva says:

    Can somebody tell me who is witness 10

  9. Xena says:

    Read it. Like it. Learned from it. BBL. Follow.

  10. racerrodig says:

    Professor, if there was a Summary Judgement “clause” in a criminal complaint, do you think this could be won on a SJ Motion?

    Since his CCW Permit is invalid I believe that alone would suffice since Fogen is illegally armed. All of the above stated facts and legal conclusions are icing on the cake.

    There was a fatal accident just up the road from us and the driver of the “struck vehicle” had lost his license prior for a multitude of speeding tickets. I don’t recall all of the details but I recall that because he did not have a license, this was all attributed to him and everything else was of lesser importance.

    IOW he was not allowed to drive, hence he would not have been in that intersection. Since Fogen should not have been armed, does that matter or is all of that for a jury to decide?

    • colin black says:

      What do you mean ?
      I thought his pervit was valid an although he was useing wifeys gun that night.
      That wouldnt invalidate his permit.
      All Ive seen refrenced vis a vie his permit was a refund for some class re saftey ect an allegations that is because he never attended said class.
      If he hadnt would that invalidate his permit?

      Anyway your post is the first definitive claim that he wasnt the holder of a valid permit.
      Where did this infomation come from have you a link?

      • racerrodig says:

        He applied for his CCW permit and it appears as though he knew he would not get it because of his psychological issues (he failed the psych part of his police academy application) and was on medication. He then asked for a refund and it appears that his dad pulled a few strings with the state, possibly through Wolfinger.

        It was not a “safety course” he got a refund for, it was the state mandated D & G certifications. My LE connections more of less confirm that he used some pull on this. I believe his dad or Wolfinger called and imposed on some poor State Clerk to fix some paperwork “glitch” and hoped nobody would be the wiser.

        My thought is that this is a major part in Wolfinger getting out of Dodge when the FDLE and the Feds got involved.

      • Xena says:

        @Colin Black

        I thought his pervit was valid an although he was useing wifeys gun that night.

        In discovery is a report by an investigator into GZ’s completion of the necessary and required class to obtain a CCL. After completing the class, applicants are to file a certification with the State. There is a fee for that class. There would be no reason to investigate unless something is missing.

        The check that GZ submitted was less than the required amount. It is possible that GZ could have submitted the certification without completing and/or paying for the class and the State inadvertently issued the CCL.

        The person conducting the class did not remember GZ, and destroys his records every 3 years. He could not verify GZ’s attendance.

        The investigator also looked into whether GZ had a Class G license that would allow him to conceal carry in the course of performing a job, even a voluntary job such as NW. The report verifies that GZ lacks such a license. NW forbids the carrying of weapons, but GZ has stated that he carried his gun everywhere with him other than to work, meaning that he carried while on NW outside of his residence, as he did more than observe from his residence — he actually patrolled.

        It was reported by news sources when ShelLIE’s CCL was revoked due to the perjury charge. There has been no such report regarding the revocation of GZ’s CCL. The State cannot revoke something they have not issued.

        • racerrodig says:

          In the 1st discovery dump I believe is the refund he asked for and received. His permit was NOT revoked as required by law. Why not? You cannot revoke what he does not have or what is not valid. I know from my Federal Guys flat out his permit…..well, he never had a valid permit.

          The class that mentioned is not the state class, that is a just a class at a gun shop. A customer of mine who has a CCW permit from FL and lives here in NJ now’s father is a police officer not far from Sanford. You can look up anyone who has a CCW permit online or the police can access that in seconds through their system. Fogen never had a legal permit and this was put to bed last year.

          Why didn’t Lester suspend his “Permit” ???? He never had one.

          • Xena says:


            Why didn’t Lester suspend his “Permit” ???? He never had one.

            Exactly, and the only gun he had was registered to ShelLIE. The report of GZ purchasing two guns was in his “bio” and evidently came from him or someone in his family and was never verified by the journalist. When Osterman was on Dr. Phil’s, he admitted being the person who helped GZ select the type of gun to purchase, but not even Osterman said that he helped ShelLIE select a gun neither that GZ purchased two guns.

            Then, when GZ left Osterman’s after living with him for 6 weeks, Osterman loaned GZ one of his own guns. IOWs, the only gun GZ had was the one taken from him on 2/26/12 which was registered to ShelLIE.

          • manberk says:

            @Xena There was a report of him going to buy more guns for fear of his life after being released on bond. Did that purchase just never happen?

          • Xena says:


            @Xena There was a report of him going to buy more guns for fear of his life after being released on bond. Did that purchase just never happen?

            GZ tried purchasing 3 guns while he was in hiding before his arrest. The gun shop owner reported that to the FBI. A newspaper report says that he sold GZ one gun, but IIRC, the report in discovery says that he sold GZ no gun. Then Osterman said that he loaned GZ a gun. FDLE found that gun in the rental car GZ used when he drove into Jacksonville. They also found a knife.

          • manberk says:

            @Xena Thanks. Then he obviously wasnt kosher.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I don’t see how that gun purchase, coming as it might have, after the fatal events of the earlier night, would have any impact on what guns might have been available to GZ, to pursue Trayvon with.

            There are only two possibilities for 2/26/12, either he had his own weapon, or he had his wife’s weapon, since they were both kel tec 9’s and that was the weapon of record.

          • manberk says:

            @Lonnie I was referring to whether or not he was licensed. If he had been able to purchase those guns we could assume he was. Since he was turned down that may be an indication that he was not.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Gotcha! Carry on.

          • racerrodig says:

            Remember a license to purchase and a license to carry are two (2) completely different animals.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Point well taken since many things at law and in this case only seem “reflexive” when, in fact, they are really either separate or different issues entirely. However, those as yet unaware of the differences, need to be informed at the earliest. So keep your antenna up and “catch and inform” as needed. Thanks Racer.

          • racerrodig says:

            You know where I stand….!

          • racerrodig says:

            He was refused and Osterman loaned him a very high dollar semi auto. That is the one he had when arrested.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena~ Maybe at the time he bought it, he wasn’t eligible to own one.

          • racerrodig says:

            I have never seen any purchase permits nor have any of my connections. Have the permit to purchase a handgun is not the same as a carry permit.

            All states have to follow Federal Law as to a purchase permit which has a background check. My belief, and not denied by my connections, is he is on record as having failed the psych part of the police academy exam. Was that found out along with the fact he was seeing a psychiatrist and taking numerous medications for mental issues ??

            In addition there is no record in the state of FL that he had a CCW permit. As I stated many times, I have a customer who’s dad is a cop near Sanford and he looked for a CCW permit on sites only the police have access to. There is a public website as well that others have posted they cannot find any record of his permit. That site is used for employee checks primarily. Would the fact that someone was carrying a loaded gun influence your hiring practices.

            I’d venture a big yes on that one.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig You know, the Marine Corp also rejected GZ. That could have been psychological, criminal record, unpaid debts or too much debt, court ordered judgments, failure to pass drug and/or alcohol test, failure to pass the physical. It could be a combination. It could have been his gang tattoo.

            Seems that GZ heard “reject” in his life probably more than he’s heard “denied” in pre-trial proceedings in his murder case.

          • racerrodig says:

            There is a lot of bad stuff going on in his head and we may never know the extent.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Hey gang… Rene Stutzman tried badgering BDLR about why he wasn’t willing to discuss charging Witness #8 with perjury. This from the Orlando Sentinel’s “Law Reporter”.

            Well here’s her email address:

            AND here’s her twitter page She needs some serious lessons at law. We should start by sending her annotated copies of the perjury law. Explaining why witness 8 is not guilty of perjury.

            Apparently she thinks that the law is something that she is able to define for everyone, and/or that no one understands it but her. When, in fact, she’s the one who exhibits complete ignorance of the subject she’s attempting to report.

            Perhaps if she gets the impression that the people she’s trying to influence, actually know and understand the laws she’s not talking about, she’ll realize she not sounding very smart.

          • jm says:

            Thanks for Stutzman’s email address. I have sent her an email regarding her ignorance and obvious bias.

          • racerrodig says:

            I sent her an e-mail and in it asked why she is in incensed by all of the obvious perjury by Fogen SheLie and the lies by his entire posse.

          • Xena says:

            @cielo62. Re: ShelIE’s gun. That’s the way I see it too. GZ did not qualify to purchase a gun. He didn’t have a valid license, didn’t want Osterman to know that, and had ShelLIE purchase and register the gun in her name.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena- hiding behind Shellie’s valid skirts, eh?

            Sent from my iPod

          • Something I’ve always questioned….IIRC shellie & fogen bought their guns together…..yet I’ve seen no mention of fogen having to surrender a firearm……other than shellies the night of the murder.

          • Xena says:


            Something I’ve always questioned….IIRC shellie & fogen bought their guns together…..yet I’ve seen no mention of fogen having to surrender a firearm……other than shellies the night of the murder.

            The story about GZ purchasing 2 guns was in a “bio” written by a reporter who did not cite the source for the information. Yes, ShelLIE’s CCL was revoked. There was no mention about the same happening for GZ. The reason is because just maybe, he was never issued a valid CCL.

          • AND……….NEVER owned his own kel-tec…… ?

          • Xena says:


            AND……….NEVER owned his own kel-tec…… ?

            Right. The only gun that GZ had was the one purchased by ShelLIE.

          • As far fetched as it sounds…….could shellie be charged with providing the weapon used in the murder?

          • Unlikely they will charge her with another offense this far along in the process, unless it’s an offense that she committed recently. If unrelated to the pending case, it would be filed under a new cause number.

          • Xena says:


            As far fetched as it sounds…….could shellie be charged with providing the weapon used in the murder?

            I doubt it. If she allowed GZ to carry her gun knowing that he lacked a valid CCL, that might be a possible charge. However, the State would need to prove that ShelLIE had knowledge that GZ’s CCL was invalid. Since we already know she’s a liar and will not admit to it, why should the State waste their time? Just lock her up for 5 years for perjury and be done with her.

          • racerrodig says:

            I believe it was Osterman who stated they bought identical guns. I really don’t recall Fogen saying it.

          • Xena says:


            I believe it was Osterman who stated they bought identical guns. I really don’t recall Fogen saying it.

            On Dr. Phil, Osterman said that he helped GZ pick out the gun. GZ didn’t say that they bought identical guns. That is what a reporter said who wrote the “bio” that included GZ’s reason for wanting a gun was because of pit bull dog off leash.

            On Dr. Phil, Osterman also said that when GZ left his house after 6 weeks, that he loaned GZ a gun.

          • racerrodig says:

            Wayyyyyyyyyyy back in the beginning I read somewhere that they bought identical guns and it’s looking like that a lie also.

          • Yeah I remember hearing that also…..

            So oysterman helped fogen pick out his pistol?…..Did oysterman say he was there when fogen ACTUALLY purchased it?

            If he did…..another lie from the fogen camp.

            And yes Race…..The irony is why I chose “STAYFREE”

          • racerrodig says:

            In one of the early interviews I believe Osterman said he was there. I know he pointed out all of the “Great Features” of the Kel – Tek 9 for them. Of course, it’s a wild wheel standing piece of shit as we all know. It just happened to fit their budget. $190.00 each.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. Found it!! It was an article published in April 2012 that reported the two guns. The reporter accredited a “source” close to GZ for saying that.


          • racerrodig says:

            There ya go. Notice how much has been refuted since April 25th 2012 ????

            “That November, the Zimmermans completed firearms training at a local lodge and received concealed-weapons gun permits…”

            Nothing about the State mandated classes ?? What…no reality back then….everybody missed that one…….’ceptin’ racer that is.

            All that talk about his insurance business…that failed……

            A “…real go-getter..” “..all those courses…” that he failed or there is no record of. Let me try my hand at this……Okay ….

            I’m 9 feet tall and the greatest basketball player on the planet, then I also play guitar and I’ve been on tens of thousands of recordings from “CTA” to “Johnny Winter” and on the side I fill in for Neil Peart on drums. From time to time I do the piano parts for Barry Manilow when he is tired and he just “hand syncs” I also play bass for “Rush” when Geddy Lee is pooped.

            I did all of Billy Joel’s vocals also on all his records….Bon – Jovi also.

            Then when I was younger I played pro football, nobody could catch me I was the fastest human on the planet…..

            Here’s the deal…..nobody can refute what I say….that’s what FogenPhoole and his posse think. He never, ever figured Trayovn was “somebody” “….a kid with a future……folks who cared…”

            Well Fogen……guess what ???

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. Evidently, that reporter interviewed people who wanted to remain anonymous, so only had what they said as GZ’s bio.

            Nothing about the State mandated classes ?? What…no reality back then….everybody missed that one…….’ceptin’ racer that is.

            People to this day still misunderstand the requirements to qualify for a CCL in Florida.

            All that talk about his insurance business…that failed……

            That insurance company was never registered as a business in the State of Florida. The Ostermans had a company that was — which is defunct because they failed to file annual reports. So, GZ is a failure in business who hung out with a couple that also failed in business.

            A “…real go-getter..” “..all those courses…” that he failed or there is no record of.

            Think about this — what would make a man with a gang tattoo who apparently worked no job during high school, relocate to another state with aspiration to get into insurance when he is obsessed with burglaries? Maybe the same thing that motivated him to organize NW; i.e., to find out what possessions people have in their homes.

            Here’s the deal…..nobody can refute what I say….that’s what FogenPhoole and his posse think. He never, ever figured Trayovn was “somebody” “….a kid with a future……folks who cared…”

            Well Fogen……guess what ???

            Yeah, but also according to them, had it not been for Black raaaaacists, GZ would have gotten away with murdering a “thug.”

          • racerrodig says:

            “Yeah, but also according to them, had it not been for Black raaaaacists, GZ would have gotten away with murdering a “thug.””

            Racists……………….did I miss something there too….or was it actually because of “….folks who cared…” (and millions of ’em) about “…a kid with a future…” Just sayin!!

          • Xena says:


            Racists……………….did I miss something there too….or was it actually because of “….folks who cared…” (and millions of ‘em) about “…a kid with a future…” Just sayin!!

            You have to think backwards to understand racist bigots. Those believing Trayvon was a kid with a future are bleeding liberals, and since bleeding liberals voted for Barack Obama, they are reverse racists.

          • racerrodig says:

            Maybe I can take about 10 of my sleeping pills and see how the lo9gic works

          • racerrodig says:

            “The reason is because just maybe, he was never issued a valid CCL.” I know this to be a fact. The Judge can’t revoke what he doesn’t have.

          • cielo62 says:

            MMP- that issue right there has bugged me from the beginning. Why haven’t charges been added to GZs rap sheet if he doesn’t have a valid CCW? Sure, murder is a greater crime, but why not make it clear that GZ is NOT a good example of a responsible gun owner? No license, no training certificate, wandering around armed without a permit: he should get nailed for that PUBLICLY so that all nonsense about him being a “decent citizen” gets totally debunked. I want to know why those charges haven’t been filed!!

            Sent from my iPod

          • I’ve asked the same questions myself Cielo……So EVERY night he went out with shellies gun….The gun he carried “All the time, except for work” as per hannity…..I don’t see how he could have done that without shellies knowledge….

            That’s why I asked earlier if she could be charged with supplying the firearm used in the murder….accessory or some such….People sue the makers of firearms used in murders…..why not the individual that supplied the weapon?

            The Prof stated that her perjury charges are good enough to get he 5 years…..

            My thoughts?………build a bigger fire under shellie…as to her involvement might just be enough for her to roll on fogen.

            For a laugh?……..instead of the knuckle bandages nurse shellie applied to fogens head…..Imagine him doing the walk through the next day with a “Stayfree” mini pad taped to his head:)

          • racerrodig says:

            A Stayfree Minipad… know the irony of that comment don’t you. My thought on no extra charges is that by the time Fl realized what all was involved, they had enough and just didn’t need to risk getting him any “….look how they’re picking on poor FogenPhoole” sympathy.

          • cielo62 says:

            MMP- LOL! I can see that picture!

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            Picture this scene……”… honey…….um, me and Frank are goin’ out….and um……can I take your gun with me……?

          • Xena says:


            hiding behind Shellie’s valid skirts, eh?

            GZ could then. His huge butt can’t hide behind a tent now.

      • Tzar says:

        Gentlemen I like where this is going

    • Question: Professor, if there was a Summary Judgement “clause” in a criminal complaint, do you think this could be won on a SJ Motion?

      Answer: No.

      When considering a motion for summary judgment, the judge must assume that the allegations of fact in the opponent’s response are true together with all of the reasonable inferences that may be drawn from those facts. If, despite those assumptions the opponent would lose on the legal issue involved, the judge must grant the motion.

      This means the judge would have to decide whether the defendant’s claim of self-defense would entitle him to a judgment of acquittal, if all of his statements were assumed to be true, including all of the reasonable inferences that may be drawn from those statements.

      Since the answer is “Yes,” the motion would have to be denied.

      Put another way, there are disputed matters of material fact that must be resolved by a fact finder, be it judge or jury.

      Regarding the significance of his revoked CCW: It does not change what must be proven, who must prove it, and by what burden they must prove it. It can, however, be the subject of an additional charge or act of uncharged misconduct that would be admissible under Evidence Rule 404(b).

      As I said long ago, the effort to conceal the amount of money in the internet account and the second passport may also be admissible under the same rule as evidence of intended flight to avoid prosecution to show consciousness of guilt.

      I doubt Corey and BDLR will attempt to do that because a murder conviction might be tipped on appeal since his intent was never proven. The speculative nature of his motive might change, however, if Shellie comes to her senses and trades that missing link for a favorable resolution of her perjury case.

      I will not be surprised if that happens, but I will be surprised that it took so long, since that appears to be her only way out.

      • racerrodig says:

        Thank You..I see SJ Motions in these Civil Cases all the time and so far “our side” usually wins as there are always “Per Se” violations of the Consumer Fraud Act. Usually just 1 violation wins the suit on SJ. I have no clue as to how a lot of the Criminal Complaints work so this is a real learning exp.

        The NJ CFA is tough. A word to the wise…..don’t rip anyone off.

        It seems to me that the State and Feds don’t want to give him any sympathy swing with a “lets all pick on Fogen” which fits in with your last 2 paragraphs. IOW, don’t blow a sure thing.

        I have the feeling SheLie is on the fence if not in the other pasture at this point.

      • Trained Observer says:

        At last from this thread some insight on his alleged license to carry and whether it was valid with fascinating sidelights on possible Wolfinger involvement. Am still uncertain (mystified, maybe) on why Fogen was packing wifey’s gun that night, and not his own. He lost his, just like his passport?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Have we ever seen a record that George every purchased a gun of his own?

        • racerrodig says:

          He claims he bought 2 identical Kel – Tek’s at the same time.Osterman stated as much also saying he recommended that pistol to him.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, those are the claims, but is there any evidence? Anyone can claim anything they want. That doesn’t make it true. As I’m sure you well know Racer, I guess you’re just playing devils advocate, because we all know where you stand.

            Anyone seen any thing about when or if the police secured the east gate? Osterman says that Shellie opened that gate and he followed her through. Of course these people have done so much lying, it wouldn’t surprise me if they’re lying about this as well.

          • racerrodig says:

            You’ll notice I said “He claims…..” Until I see proof, it gets filed under
            “More Bullshit & Lies” and that file is really big now.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Really Big By Now???!!!??? Shouldn’t it have burst at the seams a while ago? My volumetric calculations must be off!

          • racerrodig says:

            I have it subdivided as to …..

            “Lies about trip to Target”
            “Lies about NEN call”
            “Lies about pistol”
            “Lies about event post exiting truck – prior to gunshot”
            “Lies about event minutes to / minuets after gunshot”
            “Rz Jr interview lie’s”
            “Papa Z lies”

            1 – 4 drawer filing cabinet full Lets face it….they lie a lot !

      • Trained Observer says:

        She may be destracted by loyalty or “’til death do us part” hangups … romantic notions that thus far have held her back from reality: Prospects of becoming a convicted felon herself all the while being wed to a guy locked up in the big house for a few decades. When her attorney talked about her getting “stronger,” he may have been alluding her beginning to wise up.

      • aussie says:

        Yes, do let’s KISS.

        Singleton asked for and SAW his CCW permit on the night of the shooting. It was in his wallet. This is our only mention in evidence that he was carrying a wallet that day, as it was apparently given back to him, not retained as evidence.

        It is quite possible to pay for a class, end up attending another one elsewhere, and get a refund for the original. A refund proves nothing.

        In a situation where you are entitled to self-defence, it doesn’t become murder if you are an unlicensed person or use an unlicensed gun. eg in a home invasion situation you might grab an illegal gun brought by a visitor. There may be charges arising out of this for possessing the illegal firearm, but it should not take away your rights to defend yourself.

        The fatal smash story up above was wrong. True the unlicensed driver had no business being there. But the FAULT for the accident still must lie with the other party who ran the red light. He did that by himself, not forced into it by the other guy not having a valid licence. (hypothetical, not knowing how that particular smash occurred).

        I am saying, being in the wrong on paperwork does not take away any of your human or constitutional rights. What next? you’re behind with your rent you’re not entitled to vote????

        • IIRC, there is a rule of law in negligence cases that a plaintiff can establish negligence as a matter of law, if the defendant’s conduct was the proximate or legal cause of the plaintiff’s injury and it violated a statute enacted for the specific purpose of protecting people from the type of harm suffered by the plaintiff.

          In this situation, the statute establishes the standard of care that the defendant violated. Without the statute, the plaintiff might not have been able to establish the defendant’s duty and breach of duty, which are prerequisites to prove a cause of action for negligence.

          I suspect that is the legal rule that racer is thinking about.

  11. Isn’t there a law in Florida that if you commit a crime against a public official or a minor that they can up your conviction by 1 charge? So this case would go from murder 2 to murder 1 if convicted?

    Also wouldn’t examining whether GZ had a propensity to exorcizing racial animous towards blacks in particular play a huge role as to whether he would get murder 2 or manslaughter?

    Correct me if I’m wrong. Mary Cutcher seemed to make it clear in her CNN and other interviews that GZ was on top of TM in such a way that he didn’t want him to breath. That would also seem like powerful evidence that 2nd degree murder occurred.

    • I know in Florida there’s the minimum mandatory gun enhancement, they call it the 10-20-life.
      if you commit a crime with a gun= 10
      if you fire the gun during a crime= 20
      if you shoot and/or kill someone during a crime = 25 to life

      and there is a enhancement of 10 years for crime against minor or elderly.

      and Mary catcher did say she see gz kneeling down and pushing Trayvon’s face into the ground like a psychotic murderer! so yeah i’d say that deserves an extra special place in hell in prison for gz!! i’m sure he’ll be real sorry for that come june.

      • Trained Observer says:

        That whole business about how Fogen flipped Trayvon over and declined an offer to call 911 , instead asking for help in restraining TM is beyond inane … if not downright insane. Not that I want ths cold-blooded fool to get off on a temporary insanity plea.

  12. Two sides to a story says:

    Good article. Thank you.

  13. manberk says:

    In all Fogens recorded calls, interviews and reenactments he admits clearly that his progress in TMs path, behind him, never stopped. He continues on to RVC and beyond. In his own story he caused 2 confrontations already before his foot pursuit,when TM to came check him out while at the clubhouse and again on TT during the circling. So theres no way he can claim that possibility didnt exist again.

    And as we were discussing on another board today, when Fogen had the chance to escape when he says the gun shot caused TM to let up, he did not. He jumped right back into the mix and engaged TM again by mounting his back and trying to restrain him. He also expressed hostility towards TM, particularly in reference to him getting away. So IMO it appears his actions and language dictate that detaining/catching him was always the intent.

    • Tzar says:

      In his own story he caused 2 confrontations already before his foot pursuit

      and at no point does he just say, “Hey kid, I’m neighborhood watch, need a ride home?” surely it would spook a robber to know that NW has seen them.

      Is that because he was scared? then why does he follow that kid into the dark?

    • @Manberk, you’re not suggesting that Trayvon actually *did* circle gz’s car, right? because at first I thought that’s what you were saying. but then again maybe you’re just pointing to one of gz’s exaggerated fantasies; like the one when he was telling NEN guy that Trayvon was *coming to check him out* when in reality, Trayvon was simply walking towards his destination. but gz was busy trying to make NEN think Trayvon was acting aggressively. just like the bushes, coming out of the darkness and reaching in his waist band crap.

      • manberk says:

        @shannoninmiami No, Im saying Fogen and his D cannot deny the possibility of causing a confrontation when he jumped out of his truck and followed TM because according to his own story he had already created 2 face to face encounters. In his circling story, which of course I dont believe, he also lost sight of TM before he said he came back. So saying he lost visual isnt a very good excuse to feel safe enough to continue on following someone by foot, completely exposed, when earlier he had that person reaching for a weapon, and returning to confront him.

        But I guess having a loaded gun will give you that sort of moxie.

  14. colin black says:

    KISS title is aplicable to foggen.

    Also i i r c was fron creatures of the night wich is also aplicable to fogen.

  15. colin black says:

    If a tree falls in the forrest an no one is there to hear it.
    Does it make a noise?

    Well acording to the thousans of incects .
    The birds an squirrells .
    It made a helluva crash.

    • Jun says:

      Technically, there was someone there if there are insects and other animals there

      • But how do you know they are there, if you aren’t there to perceive them?

        Actually, the question is designed to illustrate the point that what we call the real world outside us is generated by complex neurological events that take place inside our heads. Since the only reality that any life form experiences is the thought movie going on inside its brain, there is no reality without a perceiver to create and experience it.

        Time does not exist. There is only the eternal NOW and everything else is illusion.

        Better living through chemistry.

      • If a man speaks in the forest…..and there’s no woman around to hear him…….Is he still wrong?

      • Jun says:

        I think it was Junior’s ideas with the Conservative Tinfoil Hat gang

        Junior was the one who publicly threatened Jackson, and Crump, and it seems he is trying to follow through on his plans

  16. Trained Observer says:

    Thank you. Nothing like a Sunday afternoon KISS to get things squared away for the coming week of developments. (Perhaps Judge Nelson also should be thanking you for articulating, especially the Findings of Fact that might be useful to her. .

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