Featuring: LLMPapa’s important new video regarding the alignment of the kill shot

LLMPapa produces a new video regarding the alignment of the bullet hole in Trayvon Martin’s chest and the aligned holes in the two sweatshirts that he was wearing.

Take a look . . .

This entry was posted on Saturday, March 2nd, 2013 at 9:40 pm and is filed under Featuring, LLM Papa, Martin's Sweatshirts in Zimmerman Case. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

398 Responses to Featuring: LLMPapa’s important new video regarding the alignment of the kill shot

  1. Lonnie Starr says:
    March 4, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    19:14 Batchelor: And the body as you’re describing it, that you saw immediately after the gunshot, how was it positioned?
    19:25 W1: Um. It looked like… I’m trying to remember… It looked like it wasn’t straight down. But it was down and it looked like the legs was like this. Sort of like in a running position. But it was like this.
    19:54 Batchelor: Are you describing a face down position or a face up position.
    20:00 W1: Face down.
    20:07 Batchelor: And you only seen, as you are describing, the body.
    20:12 W1: Right.
    20:14 Batchelor: Noone else at that point?
    20:17 W1: Noone.
    20:19 Batchelor: Do you know what the body, or the person, was wearing?
    20:27 W1: I remember a jacket, and sweat pants, and black sneakers.
    20:35 Batchelor: Do you remember colors of the sweat pants or the jacket?
    20:40 W1: Um. I think the sweat pants was gray and the jacket was a reddish color. Wasn’t bright red. But it was in the red family, I guess. Red kinda pinkish, maroonish kind of looking color.
    21:18 Batchelor: And who are you describing the clothing for?
    21:22 W1: It was the body. That’s the only… I didn’t see a second person. The only other person I saw was the cop.


    ================================

    It’s seems to me like Selma is witnessing a “magicians trick”.

    Where a dark colored cloth is used to mask something from the audience.

    Against a black backdrop, anything hidden behind the black cloth would appear invisible from a seat in the audience.

    So then, what the witness is seeing is, Trayvon’s legs in light colored pants, in the running position another witness describes after GZ gets up.

    She also sees GZ’s red colored jacket, but not his dark blue colored pants.

    She’s looking at a composite of the two people laying on the ground, with GZ laying on top.

    She’s describing a composite, made up of the lightest colored clothing the two were wearing.

    GZ’s red jacket and Trayvon’s light colored pants.

    Reply
    • xy11xy says:
      March 4, 2013 at 2:40 pm

      Bing-friggin’-Oh!

      Reply
    • xy11xy says:
      March 4, 2013 at 2:47 pm

      This is why – a horrifying as the admission is – I don’t believe George jumped onto Trayvon’s back AFTER he shot him.

      I believe he was on Tray’s back the whole(most of) time.

      That admission that he jumped on Tray’s back and pushed his arms apart, is more that just a lie. It is concealing the truth!

      That is, George makes what seems like a horrifying admission to cover up an even more horrifying truth that will implicate him!

      George was on Trayvon’s back before he shot him, IMO. He may have pushed Tray’s arms apart before he shot him. …now the question is, AND THIS IS IMPORTANT!:

      did someone come upon the scene and ask George if he should call 911 like George said???!!!

      George implies that was W13. But there was someone else who claims they asked George if they should call 911. Remember who? W6!

      And that conversation happened BEFORE Tray was shot!

      Tingles.

      Reply
    • xy11xy says:
      March 4, 2013 at 2:55 pm

      Also….

      Hoppin’ and skippin’ about the composite of clothing!

      Yes, yes yes. Dark colours disappear in the dark, and light colours appear! Tray’s very dark hoodie would have been invisible, and so would George’s dark indigo jeans.

      Tray’s white shoes would have appeared!

      Trayvon was bicycling his legs sideways…the running position to get out from under GZ’s body…possibly….unlikely that that movement happened after shot…unless it’s involuntary movement.

      It’s most likely it happened while he was alive…an attempt to escape from under GZ body.

      Reply
    • PiranhaMom says:
      March 4, 2013 at 6:13 pm

      @xy11xy –

      John W6 also describes the body in a “swimming” position.

      I don’t see how Zimmerman could have had Trayvon face down all the time. The shot was made from front-to-back through the heart and the bullet did not exit.

      Red also often disappears at night as it looks “black.” Zimmerman’s jacket was a more orange-red, so could have been more visible at night.

      I am wondering why Selma saw no one else but the body – unless “the policeman” is her depiction of Zimmerman-the-Neighborhood-Watch-Guy. There were actually 4 people shortly after the shot – Trayvon, Zimmerman, Jon-with-the-flashlight, then the cop-with-the-flashlight. Selma’s interview leaves me with more questions than answers.

      But there is no explanation for Zimmerman being on top of a face-down Trayvon except, as Serino described it, Zimmerman flipped him over. The bullet went into Trayvon from the front.

      Reply
      • xy11xy says:
        March 4, 2013 at 6:48 pm

        That’s the problem with my theory…how did he fire the shot.

        I wonder if because the bullets were hollow points(someone tells me designed to stay inside body) that he wasn’t afraid of exit from Tray’s body to his own…. hmm.

        I speculate that he let Tray up…maybe partially. Maybe he pulled him onto his side? Did he bend his arm around to Tray’s chest?

        I don’t know that answer yet.

        But being on Tray’s back solves some problems …

        the question of why didn’t Trayvon use his hands to fight back…nothing from George on Tray’s hands or cuffs.

        George putting Tray into that “hold” that some people believe he did, preventing Tray from fighting back with his own hands.

        The abrasions that appear on George’s brow ridge and top of his cheekbones…caused by pressure supplied by GZ and scrubbing motion provided by Tray trying to escape while GZ presses his face to back of Tray’s head. Either Tray’s hair or his hood fabric causes abrasions. My money is on the hair.

        There is more than one type of abrasion…there are scratches(could be caused by tumble into naked winter shrubs) and another type of abrasion that is caused by pressure and scrubbing motion.

        The knot on his nose, not caused by punch but by backward head-butt…inadvertently…,maybe when GZ lifts his own head to look at something…maybe resident on patio? GZ screams in pain and is enraged…

        BTW, why don’t we hear W6 shout “Yo” on 911 tape with screaming?

        I always felt GZ jumped onto Tray’s back, threw him to ground, knocking wind out of his lungs and stunning him temporarily. Gut mostly.

        To picture it…ask your hubby to lie on your back and let his body go partially limp to allow his body weight to subdue you.

        Maybe he wraps one arm around your neck/upper shoulders/chest…partially pinning one of your arms?

        Ask him how would he instinctively prevent your head from moving… human head weighs a lot. To subdue head helps to subdue entire body… He would press his own head to the back of yours.

        I bet even Caucasian hair when shaved is prickly…like bristles of a brush. Even your hair brush is silky when you run hand over it with NO PRESSURE. But when you apply pressure, in seconds it abrades skin. Think of carpet pile: soft when no pressure…skins knees when pressure.

        Sorry…summarizing as briefly as I can….

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          March 4, 2013 at 10:13 pm

          @xy11xy,

          I don’t know how long you have been participating in the site. For most of us, as soon as the M.E. reports were released, we have worked backwards from the fatal event: entry of the bullet into Trayvon’s heart.

          In this unique homicide, we are not seeking clues to identify the killer. That is known. Th issue is to prove his claims to self-defense to be bunk.

          The only reason Zimmerman posits that he was on the bottom is so he could say he could not escape, was being beaten, and feared for his life, fearing as a “reasonable person” would fear.

          If you have read and heard his claims over the months, you will have noted that he frequently claims that others do what, in fact, he has done.

          Trayvon could not fight back if Zimmerman, the experienced bouncer, was not only mounted over Trayvon, but had Trayvon’s arms pinned to his side because Zimmerman was kneeling on those arms, with the front tips of Zimmerman’s boots pointed into the St. Augustine grass – with the grass clearly photographed later that night by Sanford PD.

          That is the position that I and many others have come to believe – it accounts for the pain and terror in Trayvon’s voice. It permits Zimmerman a smooth draw from the holster packed on his inside back waistban. It permits the precise placement of the gun barrel for the shot. It accounts for the blood flow diagonally across Zimmerman’s head, as he leaned forward to place he gun barrel against the taut fabric of the grasped shirts. It allowed Zimmerman to place the gun barrel so that his hand could be held away from the shot – the hand grasping the shirts (his dominant hand).

          None of this positioning is extraordinary. They were seen on the ground seconds before, with Zimmerman atempting to rise. Zimmerman had the upper body strenght to overcome Trayvon, 50 lbs. lighter and untrained in wrestling, already fatigued from his hike to 7-11.

          No witnesses see them or shapes resembling any vertical altercation. If they were vertical, Zimmerman not only could not control Trayvon so he could make the perfect kill shot – but Zimmerman, standing would have NO CLAIM that he was trapped, terrified, getting his head bashed – thus had to shoot Trayvon. With gun in hand, he simply had to say “Hold it, bro, I got my gun on you and the cops are on their way.” Maybe he could add: “Welcome to Neighborhood Watch … at your service.”

          Zimmerman does have some tiny contusions visible just a few hours later at Sanford PD. The Kel-Tek 9mm is a cheap, lightweight gun designed to be concealed. It has no mass to absorb the energy of firing, thus the kickback. Zimmerman was holding Trayvon with his dominant hand, and shooting single–handed with his weaker hand.

          Normally he would shoot two-handed in a modified crouch for stability. He did not have that option when mounted over Trayvon, clutching his shirt. I can easily see the Kel-Tek kicking back and hitting Zimmerman in the face upon firing.

          But all theory awaits the release of the fiber analysis from the M.E. It was requested when the blood/DNA analysis was requested – but fiber analysis has not yet been released. Trayvon was wearing mostly cotton; Zimmerman had jeans – both fibers shed and cling to one another.

          Those are essential elements to be added to the scenario. The prosecution’s job is to remove DOUBT from the jurors’ minds. I’m betting they can do it.

          You have to ask yourself:”How could Trayon scream, a scream that ended sharply and precisely with the firing of the single bullet – if Zimmerman had Trayvon pressed face-DOWN into the grass?”

          I think your answer to that will lead you to look for another theory than the one you hold now.

          But your enthusiasm and energy and brain-work gets my salute! Keep at it, xy11xy

          Reply
          • xy11xy says:
            March 6, 2013 at 4:21 pm

            @piranhaMom

            Summarizing again….

            I don’t know how long you have been participating in the site. For most of us, as soon as the M.E. reports were released, we have worked backwards from the fatal event: entry of the bullet into Trayvon’s heart.

            Problem with this paragraph. You speak for “most” of “us”? Did you do a survey of methodology of “most” of “us”, and timing of attention by “most of us” to M.E. data? How do you know how “most of us” approach data? …Many problems here.

            I imagine you DO know how long I’ve been participating with precision. I imagine that you’ve been paying EXTREME attention to how long I’ve(and others) have been participating: odd vigilance. I imagine is how come you claim to know what “most of us” do and think.

            Odd vigilance..characteristic: sheep dog working herd. I am not cattle.

            The only reason Zimmerman posits that he was on the bottom is so he could say he could not escape, was being beaten, and feared for his life, fearing as a “reasonable person” would fear.

            Problems here too. “The ONLY reason Zimmerman posits..” You know what’s wrong with that statement.

            If you have read and heard his claims over the months, you will have noted that he frequently claims that others do what, in fact, he has done.

            Already addressed. More false premise. More false conclusion. No hard evidence that Zimmerman claims other do what he has done..frequently. This is what (we) are here debating.

            Trayvon could not fight back if Zimmerman, the experienced bouncer, was not only mounted over Trayvon, but had Trayvon’s arms pinned to his side because Zimmerman was kneeling on those arms, with the front tips of Zimmerman’s boots pointed into the St. Augustine grass – with the grass clearly photographed later that night by Sanford PD.

            Problem again: how do you become “experienced” bouncer?

            cont’d…

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 6, 2013 at 5:45 pm

            @xy11xy

            I’m a rancher. I know you’re not cattle.

            Sorry I wasted my time – and everybody else’s time – on you.

          • xy11xy says:
            March 6, 2013 at 6:24 pm

            @PiranhaMom

            cont’d.

            Summarizing further…

            Sorry I wasted my time – and everybody else’s time – on you.

            More overstatement; exaggeration; overwrought.

            You responsible for your time only. Again, speaking for other people and other people’s time: presumptuous.

            GZ “kneeling on arms” cause bruising. No bruising noted on M.E. Report.

            Grass on GZ toes may be indicative of running through grass. Have seen similar …

            cont’d

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 6, 2013 at 7:09 pm

            @xy11xy,

            In the spirit of collegiality, as one student to another, let me help you with your initial quandary, xy11xy, wherein you say, relating to your theory that Zimmerman shot Trayvon while Trayvon was face-down on the earth, with Zimmerman above: you say that’s your problem, “how did he fire the shot …. did he bend his arm around Trayvon’s body?”

            Well, we know that Zimmerman, despite his hopes and dreams, was never destined to become “the long arm of the law” so that’s not going to work. Not with the pinpoint precision with which that shot was fired.

            So, see if this theory works for you:

            Gophers are endemic in continually-watered grassy areas. They tunnel “runs” below the earth, then vertically to the surface where they empty the collected earth from their cheeks (they don’t call them “pocket gophers” for nothing). Gophers are smart at what they do.

            Now Zimmerman had been a resident for many months and eventually caught and trained a few – one, in particular, became adept at firing the light-weight Kel-Tek pistol. It’s posssible that Mark Osterman assisted in this training, but we do not know.

            During the on-the ground wrestling between Zimmerman and Trayvon that fateful night, Zimmerman realized he needed help in restraining Trayvon, and, as you recall, he made claims that he called out for help.

            Even recorded his calls for help, at SPD. And as you’ve heard, they sound nothing like the terrified death-wail of Trayvon Martin.

            They sound like, well … barks.

            So, hearing Zimmerman’s barking, the trained gopher emerged from the gopher hole UPON WHICH Zimmerman had maneuvered himself – so the trained gopher could extricate the Kel-Tek from Zimmerman’s right-rear holster.

            With that accomplished, ex-bouncer Zimmerman flipped Trayvon over, so that his heart was positioned over the armed gopher in the hole, and Trayvon’s face was positioned in a gopher hole a foot away, in which Zimmerman had thoughtfully installed a battery-operated microphone. Thus Trayvon, though face down on the earth, had his screams amplified for all to hear on the 911 call that Jenna made to Sanford PD, instead of the screams disappearing soundlessly into the turf pushed into his face.

            Then the gopher, with his cuved teeth, pulled the trigger.

            Now while the trained gopher credibly could be accused of shooting Trayvon to death, Zimmerman realized he would become the laughingstock of Sanford PD, and decided to claim “the capture” for himself. In self-defense, naturally.

            After all, when Detective Ayala demands to know, “Who fired the shot?” wouldn’t it shrivel your cojones to have to answer, “Ummm, it was my trained gopher … ”

            (And we all wondered why there was the animal DNA on Zimmerman’s jacket … )

            So, Zimmerman “manned up.” (And boy, was that trained gopher pissed. Wait ’til you see the FDLE interview with “the mystery witness.” Gonna blow everybody’s mind.)

            I hope this explanation helps you with your theory, xy11xy.

            My problem with it is that there is no evidence of the second trained gopher who turned on the battery-operated microphone in the adjacent gopher hole below Trayvon’s mouth.

            Please keep looking for that.

            It would help us no end.

            Thank you.

          • xy11xy says:
            March 6, 2013 at 7:35 pm

            Sheepdog is gopher expert.

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 6, 2013 at 7:48 pm

            @xy11xy,

            Sheepdogs are very, verrry smart. Watch them work sometime.

          • xy11xy says:
            March 6, 2013 at 7:55 pm

            @Sheep dog

            Now you’re identifying with sheep dog?

            Human smarter.

            Human feed sheep dog; give sheep dog orders.

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 6, 2013 at 8:51 pm

            @xy11xy,

            And how does this relate, precisely, to Zimmerman’s alleged murder of the unarmed juvenile, Trayvon Martin?

          • xy11xy says:
            March 8, 2013 at 1:29 pm

            @ Sheep dog

            Trayvon’s tragic death is merely backdrop to your flashing. It is soundtrack only to your public indecency.

            Positive affirmation, doggy:

            Repeat after me…

            I….

            AM….

            MAN!

          • cielo62 says:
            March 9, 2013 at 7:00 pm

            PirhanaMon- you are amazing. I want to be cool like you, if I ever grow up. 🙂

            Sent from my iPod

          • cielo62 says:
            March 9, 2013 at 6:57 pm

            PirhanaMom- cowgirl up!

            Sent from my iPod

          • cielo62 says:
            March 9, 2013 at 6:54 pm

            Xy11xy- you are a “Johnny come lately” to the multiple threads and discussions which have been ongoing in this blog. PirhanaMom is established in her credentials; her posts focus on the known and/or possibly discoverable evidence. “Most of us” conveys a core group of bloggers and posters who gave dissected each scrap of evidence dump. Not that she needs my help, but I take exception to your attack on her. I respect her work and her insights because she has earned it. You… Not so much. Why do you feel threatened?

            Sent from my iPod

          • xy11xy says:
            March 10, 2013 at 2:29 pm

            @cielo62

            [Comment not appropriate]

          • cielo62 says:
            March 10, 2013 at 2:44 pm

            [Comment not appropriate]

          • xy11xy says:
            March 10, 2013 at 2:47 pm

            You’re expending far too much mental energy on a “Johnny come lately”.

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 10, 2013 at 3:03 pm

            @Cielo –

            How wonderful it that xy11xy has herself all to herself. Made for each other!

            For those who are here seeking Justice for Trayvon, gnats emerging from the Zimmerman swamp do not matter.

            Celebrate the discovery, analyses, passion and LOGIC coming forward from the Leatherman team!

          • cielo62 says:
            March 10, 2013 at 3:10 pm

            PirhanaMom- you certainly don’t need me to stand up for you, but it irks me to see newbies come in, green enough to blind the eyes, and yet be oh-so much smarter than people who have logged the hours in study for months! Still you are right; hoodies up! Justice for Trayvon!

            Sent from my iPod

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 10, 2013 at 3:37 pm

            @Cielo –

            My perception is that xy11xy is a plant from the Zimmerman swamp, aiming to sow dissent. They’ve tried it before, with just as little luck.

            I do appreciate your support. Those of us working together, helping put the pieces of the puzzle together, know who we are.

            I welcome each and every Newbie here who comes to learn, to sustain the Justice for Trayvon cause, and who respects the various talents and efforts among those who blog here.

            We were all Newbies once, first leaning on The Professor, then branching out to support each other. There is no lock-step here; sometimes we stumble, but there are a host of helping hands to help pick us up. It is a joy to learn on this site.

            When we are attacked, it just proves how Stalag Zimmerman fears us.

            Let’s just shrug it off, because a shrug is all they’re worth.

            IF that!

          • Xena says:
            March 10, 2013 at 4:12 pm

            A video by xy11xy.

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 10, 2013 at 4:41 pm

            @Xena,

            These are impressive personal excoriations of the defendent. But there is more to this process than excoriation.

            Drama isn’t everything.

            It is interestng to read her instant and vitriolic non-sequiturs when her talents do not grant her instant worship.

          • cielo62 says:
            March 10, 2013 at 5:43 pm

            Xena and PirhanaMom- being antiZ is no cure for also being a rude jerk.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:
            March 10, 2013 at 5:44 pm

            Everyone does not have the same talents and interests, but the parts together make a body.

            For instance, I could never see myself putting time and effort in videos like xy11xy, LLMPapa, Trent Sawyer, and Dave. I appreciate their work. Each one is different because they have different personalities. Willisnewton, amsterdam and whonoze take a very studied approach to their videos. That takes time in which again, I really appreciate.

            Truly Patricia, I did not post her video for your critique but rather, in effort to ward off your accusations that she is a Zimmerman supporter.

            Can the personal attacks now stop, please?

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 10, 2013 at 6:36 pm

            @Xena,

            Sounds great to me.

            Personal attacks, particularly those of a sexual nature, do not belong on this site.

            As I asked four days ago, “What does this have to do with the alleged murder of the unarmed juvenile, Trayvon Martin?”

          • cielo62 says:
            March 10, 2013 at 6:56 pm

            X2

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:
            March 10, 2013 at 4:08 pm

            xy11xy has a Youtube channel where she has zealously defended Trayvon Martin.

            IMO, things got off on the wrong foot. It might pay to spend some time watching her videos so when she disagrees with someone here, they can understand why.

          • xy11xy says:
            March 11, 2013 at 1:58 pm

            I have to chuckle at your vigorous defense, Xena.

            However, it’s won’t do any good… hmm…. it’s sort of like trying to meet the moral standards of Racists: futile.

            If you have to justify my presence here to PiranhaMom and Cielo, then how is here, and PiranhaMom and Cielo unlike The Retreat, and it’s residents?

            See?

            Pointless.

          • Xena says:
            March 11, 2013 at 2:08 pm

            @Xy11xy. I admire your work and your perspective which, IMO, is deeply psychological in its expression. Your videos have brought forth things I’ve felt but am not able to articulate. Truly, I hope you stay here and continue to share.

            I like Cielo too, so it hurts me to see the two of you bump heads.

            IMO, the only person here with authority is Frederick Leatherman, and seniority does not grant anyone authority.

          • xy11xy says:
            March 11, 2013 at 2:13 pm

            Thank you, I’m glad you like my vids.

            IMO, the only person here with authority is Frederick Leatherman, and seniority does not grant anyone authority.

            ….Yes. And splitting the difference is not the way to handle Sociopaths.

          • cielo62 says:
            March 11, 2013 at 3:07 pm

            EXCUSE ME?? Did you just to refer me as a sociopath?? You, sir or madam, have crossed the line yet again. Despite your good additions to this cause, you have no authority to demean or insult others here.

            Sent from my iPod

          • xy11xy says:
            March 11, 2013 at 2:22 pm

            @Xena

            Thank you, I’m glad you like my vids.

            IMO, the only person here with authority is Frederick Leatherman, and seniority does not grant anyone authority.

            ….Yes. And splitting the difference is not the way to handle Sociopaths.

          • cielo62 says:
            March 11, 2013 at 3:10 pm

            To Professor Leatherman- DO FEEL FREE to intervene, as I have become very offended at being called a sociopath. Civility has gone out the window in this thread from xy11xy.

            Sent from my iPod

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 11, 2013 at 2:25 pm

            @xy11xy,

            Geez, kiddo, you really are a self-obsessed moron.

            You are trying to OUT-MORAL Xena?????

            You are the one pure source seeking justice for Trayvon, in the Universe?

            Pity.

            Now, tell us all again your theory that Zimmerman shot Trayvon while Trayvon was lying face-down in the grass.

            You’re so smart, I’m almost sure you can ILLUMINATE us. Yesssss.

          • Xena says:
            March 11, 2013 at 2:48 pm

            @PiranhaMom. When you said that xy11xy was a Zimmerman supporter was when I interjected myself in your disagreement.

            The professor has said to stop the attack. xy11xy has the right to respond to me as you have the right to respond to me, but I don’t want you interjecting my name into the continuation of your feud with xy11xy.

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 11, 2013 at 2:57 pm

            @Xena,

            Concur, and will honor and respect your request.

          • xy11xy says:
            March 11, 2013 at 3:07 pm

            @ Xena

            They are the same person. Sociopathy.

          • cielo62 says:
            March 11, 2013 at 3:04 pm

            The only pointless thing here is your attacks on fellow bloggers. Civility is to he extended to all who post here. However, like GZ, you seem all too wiling to judge who and who shouldn’t be here. That’s a huge turn off to what might otherwise be a positive addition to the discussion at hand.

            Sent from my iPod

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 11, 2013 at 4:07 pm

            @ Cielo –
            @ xy11xy

            They key to xy11xy’s overriding interest is her statement, “Thank you. Glad you like my vids.”

            Having received applause for what is truly stunning work, she apparently feels ENTITLED to trash anyone who dares to differ with her.

            The same level of vitriol she pours on Zimmerman and family, she pour on everyone else she disagrees with.

            So I’ll try to balance this:

            Memo to xy11xy11 …
            BRAVA! BRAVISSIMA! MOLTE, MOLTE BRAVISSIMA. YOU ARE A GENIUS IN YOUR VIDS!

            OK?

            But you are a lunkhead when you posit that Trayvon was shot when face-down in the grass.

            Quit whining that you are/were being evicted from this blog. That is not true. You are welcome by all if you extend courtesy to others, and bring intelligent analysis to the discussion.

            Knock off the diva biz and the sexual accusations and calling people sociopaths.
            YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED.

          • Frederick Leatherman says:
            March 11, 2013 at 5:21 pm

            I banned xy11xy, whom I believe to be a troll impersonating xy11xy.

            Regardless, she is gone.

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 11, 2013 at 6:46 pm

            @Profssor Fred.
            @Ciel,
            @Xena,

            I’m not a sophisticated blogger and no expert on trollmanship, but I sensed that MO with this individual.

            They do not expect to change our minds. Instead they seek to stir dissent.

            The videos are universally admired (except by the Zimmerman faction,) so trolling under that identification would be a coup for their side.

            Very unfortunate.

            Thanks for the stop to the nonsense.

          • Frederick Leatherman says:
            March 11, 2013 at 6:54 pm

            I believe the person was impersonating xy11xy.

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 11, 2013 at 8:11 pm

            “I banned xy11xy, whom I believe to be a troll impersonating xy11xy.”

            For what it’s worth, the avatars on all of the posts are the same, indicating that regardless of the name (which someone with a different WordPress.com account could substitute for the original name used), it is the same WordPress.com account.

            So no impersonation.

            I leave it to others to make their own determination of whether xy11xy deserves the appellation of “troll”.

            unitron

          • Xena says:
            March 11, 2013 at 8:24 pm

            Not an impersonator, nor a troll, just a person taking offense with being belittled. She said that she had computer problems and that is why she hadn’t recently uploaded any videos. There are other things I checked and verified as well.

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 11, 2013 at 8:40 pm

            My real interest in this is the question of whether the gaping hole in WordPress.com security was exploited to make a post from an account other than that of xy11xy appear to be from them (a situation with which I’m all too familiar and only recently found out the mechanism behind).

            However, the vulgarity of the attack referencing sexual matters leads me to give credence to the poster’s claim to be male.

            Not saying a woman wouldn’t ever attack another one that way, just playing the odds.

            unitron

          • Xena says:
            March 11, 2013 at 9:03 pm

            Three ways that Word Press operates for comments. The first is to allow all comments without moderation.

            The second is to set options that first time posters must be approved, and once they are approved, Word Press recognizes that approval by IP address. If the person changes email and handle, as long as their IP address is the same, their comments should automatically post. There is an exception to that, however, if the person is registered with Word Press.

            If the person is registered with Word Press and posts a comment with a user name and/or email address other than the one they registered, Word Press treats it as a first-time poster. The comment goes into moderation for approval.

            A person who is not registered with Word Press can use any handle and/or email to post as long as their IP address is the same. A person registered with Word Press using the same user name and email address, but from a different computer or non-static IP address, will find their comments go into moderation.

            Something that is not clear with those wanting to comment on blogs that require registration with Word Press is thinking that they must have a blog. That’s because Word Press invites that when they register. Some have a blog address with no content. Others delete the blog after registering. Registration is possible without a blog.

          • cielo62 says:
            March 11, 2013 at 10:09 pm

            Xena- I didn’t know that, about the blog being optional. I have an empty blog, just for the name.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:
            March 11, 2013 at 10:20 pm

            @cielo62

            Xena- I didn’t know that, about the blog being optional. I have an empty blog, just for the name.

            And, if you delete that blog it will still be connected to your Word Press registration but appear not found or does not exist.

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 11, 2013 at 9:06 pm

            @Uni –

            Did not know xy11xy claimed to me male. Cielo thought it could be either.

            Does the use of chess pieces tip the scale in any way? Your opinion?

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 11, 2013 at 9:47 pm

            “Did not know xy11xy claimed to me male.”

            It’s not absolutely impossible that I misinterpreted what was meant by

            Repeat after me…

            I….

            AM….

            MAN!

            in this post, but the tone and wording of the one which now appears to be removed struck me very much as the way a male uses sexual references to insult a female.

            “Does the use of chess pieces tip the scale in any way? Your opinion?”

            Was that in a different thread or one of the now removed comments?

            unitron

          • Xena says:
            March 11, 2013 at 9:57 pm

            “I am man” is not the same as saying “I am male.” I am man is saying I am human — not an animal who needs (her imagery) a sheep dog to direct me where they want me to go.

            xy11xy has about 5 years of videos on her Youtube channel. She uses psychological imagery. I suppose if one is not familiar with her work and communications, that they can jump to assumptions. Nonetheless, “male” should not be substituted for “man.”

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 11, 2013 at 10:53 pm

            @Uni,

            The chessmaster opus apparently hit the trash bin. Was mostimpressive, from a propaganda viewpoint – and triumphant in tone. Victor over victim stuff.

            And I get the I AM MAN stuff, but didn’t perceive it as gender-oriented. Homo sapiens or Homo erectus or Neanderthal or one of those generic guys. But not necessarily “a guy.”

            In fact, in cyberspace as we’ve seen so often you can have a scriptwriter, a narrator and a videographer putting together a “persona” who doesn’t exist. But results in a powerful message.

            Absolutely none of the attack posts related to the issues in this case – and there are issues we’re still puzzling over. That’s where I’d like to spend my time.

            .

          • cielo62 says:
            March 11, 2013 at 10:10 pm

            OMG, uni! I actually agree with you on this one!

            Sent from my iPod

          • cielo62 says:
            March 11, 2013 at 9:57 pm

            Xena- being hurt and offended I understand. But to resort to sexually offensive comments goes over the line. I think we can agree. From what I’ve seen of Xy11xy’s work en toto, s/he didn’t strike me as the kind to resort to the crude remarks that were posted under her name. Unless xy11xy is psychophrenic, I can’t connect the intelligent posts to the crude ones. Maybe the computer problems were due to being hacked. Heaven knows its as easy to get a computer virus as it is to get a cold in a daycare.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:
            March 11, 2013 at 10:19 pm

            @cielo62. I wish it had not happened between any of you.

          • cielo62 says:
            March 12, 2013 at 1:35 pm

            Xena my friend, I wish it hadn’t either. I feel like an idiot when I let myself get baited like that. Oh well. Live and learn!

            Sent from my iPod

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 11, 2013 at 8:27 pm

            @Uni –
            @Cielo –

            I didn’t really get riled up until she (it?) attacked Cielo (and indirectly me) with crude sexual allusions. Really unacceptable.

            I did call her (it) a lunkhead. Guess I’m bad
            for that.

            I’m pretty flippin’ unrepentant, too. Anyone who posits that Trayvon was shot while face down on the grass, knowing the bullet entered horizontally from the front is a TOTAL lunkhead.

            On the other hand, I never call anybody a “sociopath.” It takes one to know one.

            End of discussion on this unsavory incident, but no mea culpas from me.

          • cielo62 says:
            March 11, 2013 at 10:01 pm

            No, I got riled up. I deal with kids all day so I don’t expect adults to behave like spoiled kids. I don’t take kindly to someone who chooses to escalate a fight by purposely misinterpreting messages. I got pissed at the sexual innuendos and being called a sociopath. Next time, I’ll know to blow it off.

            Sent from my iPod

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 11, 2013 at 11:26 pm

            @Cielo.

            Kind of an interesting collegiality interplay that went on. I tuned this out at an early stage, asking “What does ths have to do with the alleged murder of an unarmed juvenile?” All went silent.

            Then you came on board, really offended by the attack on another poster (Moi, as Miss Piggy would say.)

            At that point I got really offended when she attacked YOU. She even mouthed off at the ever-patient ____ (I promised not to invoke her name)which seemed
            the ultimate sacrilege. But ____ was kind and soothing.

            It is clear that whoever wrote those posts always has to have it HER way.

            That’s not going to work here, where there’s a lot of give and take and helping one another commect the dots.

            It is more than a little startling to read that she didn’t fully understand the function of a hollow-point bullet … and it’s been more than a year. Doesn’t give one a whole lot of confidence in her opinions on what we discuss here.

          • cielo62 says:
            March 12, 2013 at 6:41 am

            PirhanaMom- I don’t take kindly to esteemed colleagues being attacked.

            Sent from my iPod

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 12, 2013 at 3:27 pm

            @Cielo –

            None of us do. We get hotter over attacks on colleagues than we do on attacks on ourselves.

          • cielo62 says:
            March 12, 2013 at 8:36 pm

            PirhanaMom~     Ain’t that funny?   Here’s to you:

            Sent from my iPod

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 13, 2013 at 1:59 am

            @Cielo –

            Love this! Played it four times and was so energized I went out & cleaned the garage (new freezer being delivered tomorrow.

            This track’s a keeper. Thanks!

          • cielo62 says:
            March 11, 2013 at 9:53 pm

            Did you not prove, uni, how easy it is to hack a persons account here? You and Aussie, plus the Queen of England, were able to do so fairly easily. I see no reason someone could not have taken xy11xy’s handle to do mischief.

            Sent from my iPod

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 11, 2013 at 10:48 pm

            “I see no reason someone could not have taken xy11xy’s handle to do mischief.”

            Yes, someone posting from a different WordPress.com account could change it to say

            xy11xy says:

            at the top of the comment.

            However, apparently spoofing the avatar WordPress.com attaches to the comments is not as easy.

            All of xy11xy’s comments that I’ve seen so far have the same avatar.

            By that I mean not just the exact same graphic, but if you right click on them and click “copy image location” you get

            http://2.gravatar.com/avatar/e4e51c7da0653d41262ce456214a7bfc?s=32&d=identicon&r=G

            on both the earlier and later posts.

            You can change the avatar attached to your own posts, and it’s retroactive.

            One can see that by looking at my posts here last June when I just went with whatever WordPress.com chose for me, prior to choosing the one I use now, which now shows up on my old posts instead of the one which did when they were originally made.

            Someone could go find the same picture I did, but the location on the WordPress.com servers wouldn’t, or at least shouldn’t, be the same.

            If WordPress.com allows person B to copy the location, on the WordPress.com servers, of person A’s avatar and change their (B’s) avatar to that instead of submitting the file and having it kept on the WordPress.com servers at a different http address, then that’s an even bigger, even more stupid security hole.

            Now if someone was able to somehow obtain or guess their password and access the account and change the password, they’d be able to lock xy11xy out of their own account and use that account to make it look as though xy11xy said things they did not in fact say, but that’s a much more difficult exploit (one which I wouldn’t be able to figure out how to do) than posting from a different account and just changing the name to queenofengland or whatever.

            unitron

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 11, 2013 at 7:56 pm

            “Civility is to he extended to all who post here. ”

            unitron swivels head wildly from side to side expecting to catch a glimpse of Rod Serling stepping out from the shadows.

            unitron

          • blushedbrown says:
            March 11, 2013 at 8:02 pm

            @Uni

            Actually I see you head rotating like Linda Blair’s.

            😆

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 11, 2013 at 8:19 pm

            “Cleans split-pea soup from keyboard”

            unitron

          • blushedbrown says:
            March 12, 2013 at 7:34 am

            @Uni

            HA!

          • cielo62 says:
            March 11, 2013 at 9:49 pm

            Blushed Brown- LOL! But then the pea soup starts. YUCK!

            Sent from my iPod

          • blushedbrown says:
            March 12, 2013 at 7:51 am

            That movie scared the bejesus out of me!!!
            Pea soup I can take, it was the other thing she did, that made me go oh no.

          • cielo62 says:
            March 12, 2013 at 2:05 pm

            Blushed brown- yep. Scared me, too. But theologically, it made no sense. You can’t be possessed without your will. So the premise that any passing demon can take over your body is BS. With many people being evil without a demon, who needs them?

            Sent from my iPod

          • cielo62 says:
            March 11, 2013 at 9:48 pm

            Oh? You see yourself in an alternate universe? 🙂

            Sent from my iPod

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 11, 2013 at 9:53 pm

            Either that or

            “Civility is to he extended to all who post here. ”

            is a very recent development.

            unitron

          • cielo62 says:
            March 11, 2013 at 10:13 pm

            Not from my side. Are you gonna try it?

            Sent from my iPod

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 11, 2013 at 11:16 pm

            Yes, I well remember the alacrity with which you jumped on racerrodig’s bandwagon to be “civil” to me.

            http://frederickleatherman.com/2012/12/01/defense-raises-tempest-in-a-teapot-in-trayvon-martin-murder-case/

            unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 11, 2013 at 11:02 pm

            @ Uni –

            No, Uni, you’re not in an alternate universe. You ARE an alternate universe.

            That’s a compliment. Kinda “marching to a different drummer.” Not to Gene Krupa. More like
            Mongo SantaMaria.

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 11, 2013 at 11:13 pm

            Great, now I’m going to have “Watermelon Man” stuck in my head for days.

            With a little “Sing, sing, sing” on the side.

            unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 11, 2013 at 11:36 pm

            @ Uni –

            “Ritmo Caliente,” por favor. Muy sabrosa!

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 11, 2013 at 11:45 pm

            So now you want Cal Tjader stuck up there between my ears as well?

            unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 12, 2013 at 12:55 am

            @Uni,

            Couldn’t have anything better, Uni.

            With Mongo and Tjader and “Ritmo Caliente”, nobody needs caffeine any more.

            Great “get up & face the day” music!

          • cielo62 says:
            March 12, 2013 at 1:48 pm

            Unitron- make room!

            Sent from my iPod

          • cielo62 says:
            March 12, 2013 at 1:47 pm

            PirhanaMom- yes, Unitron is his own universe. I’ve come to accept that. Condescension is annoying but can be ignored. He is very literal and that also serves a purpose. Cant believe I’m writing this but glad he’s here. We need both right brain and left brain thinkers looking at everything.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Frederick Leatherman says:
            March 11, 2013 at 4:08 pm

            I am warning you to stop. Enough is enough.

            You are attacking good people and I will not tolerate it.

            Stop now or you are gone.

          • cielo62 says:
            March 10, 2013 at 2:57 pm

            [I believe the matter has been resolved]

          • cielo62 says:
            March 10, 2013 at 2:58 pm

            Professor- sorry, i meant xy11xy.

            Sent from my iPod

          • xy11xy says:
            March 10, 2013 at 3:39 pm

            Somebody better confiscate that i-pod for your own safety.

          • Frederick Leatherman says:
            March 10, 2013 at 7:30 pm

            Enough.

          • xy11xy says:
            March 11, 2013 at 1:35 pm

            @ Professor Frederick Leatherman

            PirahnaMom and Cielo have told me that I have no right to be here, and have not “earned” something or the other. They have said that I am something called a “newbie”, and that that designation disqualifies me to speak or interact with others.

            Of course, I know this is rubbish.

            In addition to it being rubbish on it’s face alone; it’s not dissimilar to the attitude by residents toward one 17-year-old boy walking in a so-called gated community.

            That attitude was rubbish. It was vile. It was offensive. It led to the slaughter of a child deemed NOT to belong.

            How illuminating to find that same attitude OPENLY expressed here on your blog toward someone designated a “newbie”…whatever that is.

            How illuminating to be told that I do not belong; that I have not earned entrance, to be told that I am “green”…whatever that is. I am, in fact, BLACK.

            I suppose if one was an evil un-genius, Professor, openly expressing such an attitude and implying, without challenge, that it is condoned by the blog owner, and by other participants, would be the perfect method by which one could disparage a blog that aims primarily to speak on matters of law, but also aims to seek justice for that same dead boy.

            But you are much too intelligent to fall for that low-brow ruse.

            You cannot have it both ways.

            Here’s to illumination!

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 11, 2013 at 2:10 pm

            Knock off the sanctimoniuos crap, xy11xy.
            Knock off the diva crap, too.

            You may be adored by many for the power of your videos.

            That gives you no right whatsoever to attack participants here – and on a crude sexual level, at that.

            Nor does being Black, or Canadian, or dramatic, or beautiful, or articulate, or clever, or any other status or quality give you any right to consider any of us less than devoted in our interest in securing justice for Trayvon AND all others, against vigilante action.

            Prejudice works both ways.

            Don’t indulge in it yourself.

            Don’t lie, either. Nobody here said you could not participate.

            You were told “ENOUGH!”

            What part of “ENOUGH!” don’t you understand?

            .

          • cielo62 says:
            March 9, 2013 at 6:56 pm

            Xy2xy- an experienced bouncer is anyone who has done the job for some time. Surely, you can’t be so dense as to think that requires a certificate?

            Sent from my iPod

      • Lonnie Starr says:
        March 5, 2013 at 12:28 pm

        But that’s the point… If you’re under the body and you try to flip it quickly, it flops to the side. Now you have to really scramble to get on top of it, and it’s going to be face up. But, if you’re already on top when you fire the shot, all you have to do is flip the body and drop onto it. This can be accomplished without even getting to one’s feet.

        In the fire and flip process, with GZ on top, he’s also blocking the witnesses view of Trayvon, who is wearing mostly dark clothing on his upper body. When people look on the ground to see what’s there, they look for a head and a torso. On Trayvon both of these items were shroud in dark colors. So, as long as GZ stays low to the ground, all viewers will see is his head and his torso in reddish color and Trayvon’s light colored pants. Put the two together and you see a head, a torso and legs — one person!

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          March 5, 2013 at 4:37 pm

          @Lonnie

          I get it Lonnie, I DO get it – I flippin’ get it!

          Yep, I get it.

          Grand post, and I thank you.

          Reply
        • xy11xy says:
          March 6, 2013 at 4:54 pm

          @LonnieStar..

          When GZ tries to flip there is drag from “dead” weight of body…

          Torso may go, but hips and legs drag…not so easy to flip limp body.

          Reply
          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 6, 2013 at 6:29 pm

            @xy11xy

            “not so easy to flip a limp body”?

            Easy enough if you’re motivated, like Zimmerman, and have the upper body strength of an experienced bouncer – like Zimmerman.

            Lots of things in life are not easy.

            But facing a murder rap, you could find it easier than doing the time.

            That motivation enough for you?

        • Lonnie Starr says:
          March 7, 2013 at 10:24 am

          Oh and the red jacket on top was seen because, the witness says that at that time, after the shot, when she looked there was a light on.

          Reply
    • nocamo33 says:
      March 4, 2013 at 11:00 pm

      Exactly!

      Reply
  2. nocamo33 says:
    March 3, 2013 at 9:19 pm

    If Zimmerman can sue NBC for manipulating the facts of the case to paint Zimmerman as guilty, then does that mean the Martin family can sue Knox and Pipitone for making Trayvon look like the aggressor when it is clear from the evidence he wasn’t?

    Reply
  3. Frederick Leatherman says:
    March 3, 2013 at 7:06 pm

    New Post Up:

    Featuring: Part III of LLMPapa’s Cardboard and Bullshit

    Reply
  4. colin black says:
    March 3, 2013 at 4:48 pm

    Searchingmind
    LLMPapa
    Statoftheinternet an all of us in some way are the equivilent.
    Of Chinease water tortute on foggen.

    The victim would be imobilised stapped to a platform .
    Unable to move his head left or right or up or down..
    Remember thease people had absulutely no idea what lay in wait for them..
    Then left alone in complete darkness.
    An ice cold drip of water would land directly on the centre of his or her fore head at totaly random times…

    No one peice of evidence disputes his version of events
    When one person seeks to rewrite history.
    Countles facts of reality start to drip on an wear away the false naritive.

    If this goes to trial of course he will receive a fair trial.
    But a fair trial an a fair an just jury will still convict him.
    Thats because i m o he has telegraphed his guilt from the gett go.
    For some one whos defence is based on his honesty an his verion of what occoured that night.
    He has also telegraphed his willingness to lie .
    If on the night of the murder he was willing an able to lie to LE .
    About his record been arrested charged ect NO Sir
    Sqeakie Clean..
    Lie about his Educatioal qualifications.
    An yet he expects us to beleive him about the Murder.

    Went on to prove he has no qualms lieing to the courts either his excuse?
    Doesnt trust the system.
    Another Ironic twist this case the Martins Trayvons Parents Tracy an Sabrina also didnt trust the system..

    Reply
  5. Frederick Leatherman says:
    March 3, 2013 at 4:39 pm

    New Post Up:

    Do not fail to see the forest for the trees in Zimmerman case

    Reply
  6. Lonnie Starr says:
    March 3, 2013 at 4:34 pm

    Curious and curiouser, after writing to OS to try to get a handle on where Ransberg lived, I get a reply that he lived near where Trayvon was staying only on a cul de sac. The description sort of matches where Burgess was staying. Which I had already noted on my RATL map at #6 HERE.

    For some reason I’m still of the opinion that, that white guy with the two blacks at the 711 was the same white Ransberg, who had the laptop that Burgess stole, in his back pack.

    Reply
    • gbrbsb says:
      March 3, 2013 at 6:45 pm

      Extremely interesting if true, but wasn’t at least one of them in prison at the time if not more? Someone found that out but can’t remember who or where?

      Reply
    • pat deadder says:
      March 4, 2013 at 7:05 am

      Lonnie Did you notice Trayvon in 7 11 video. To me he looks like he is trying to avoid those boys because he looks toward the front door turns toward the back of the store stops to pick something up keeps going toward the back.I think he thought there was a back door.I believe Trayvon was a sweet kid.I saw the interview with his Aunt and Uncle and how they described him he was adorable.’Remember DeeDee said he was a Moma’s boy.I think he was homesick and DeeDee was his connectoin to his friends.GZ judged people thinking they were all sneaky,etc like him and now a murderer imo

      Reply
  7. SearchingMind says:
    March 3, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    @ LLMPapa

    I still maintain that you would absolutely make a very successful prosecutor in your next life. Honestly, no kidding. But here are my points of criticism of your latest absolutely fine video:

    1. The alignment-/non-alignment evidence in and of itself does not knock-out GZ’s self-defense claim, IMO. And that is what I think you/we are after. Considering the alignment-/non-alignment theory in isolation (of other evidence) and then applying it to this case does not dislodge other abstract variables that (attempt to) offer alternative reading(s) of the non-alignment evidence in this case and as such play heavily in GZ’s favor. Apart from the theory that gravitational force may be responsible for the non-alignment (which is not implausible), GZ could also theoretically be on the bottom holding unto Trayvon’s garment (and inadvertently pulling it down and towards himself with one hand and firing the kill shot with the other hand).

    2. For GZ to be convicted, prosecutor must with 100% scientific certainty take him off the ground leaving two other alternatives open, i.e. (a) GZ is on top of Trayvon- or (b) GZ is standing face to face with Trayvon when the kill shot was fired. The ONLY part of the evidence that – from a scientific point of view – will get the job done without taking prisoners is ‘the trajectory’. The trajectory of the bullet literarily scoops GZ up from the bottom (thereby destroying his self-defense story) and places him on top of- or standing face to face with Trayvon. With GZ effectively removed from the bottom by science, every other piece of evidence falls into place: the non-alignment (GZ is either on top of- or standing face to face with Trayvon, holding unto his garment pulling it down and there are NO other alternative interpretations), the death cries for help (who was crying the death cries? the unarmed boy or the big fat butcher on top of him with a loaded gun?). Without the trajectory evidence, the alignment-/non-alignment evidence plays in GZ’s favor (because it does not rule out other plausible variables).

    3. To his credit, the expert Knox proved what you have been saying for months. Knox’s demo produced the same trajectory in Trayvon’s autopsy report. To get that specific result, Knox was STANDING face to face with his “victim” of the same height, his both hands OUTSTRETCHED and RAISE TO SCHOULDER LEVEL. If I am not mistaken, you yourself have demonstrated the same in one of your excellent videos. The thought-error that led Knox to the wrong conclusion lies in using the alignment-/non-alignment result as the premise for the conclusion instead of the trajectory/path of his bullet. That is the point of divergence between you and Knox, as I see it. If Knox had taken the potion GZ claimed he was when he fired the kill shot, the result of Knox’s demo would have been decisively different. If Knox used proper premise (the trajectory), he would have come to the same conclusion you did (months ago).

    (I think faster than I type. Pls. overlook any typos)

    Reply
    • Tzar says:
      March 3, 2013 at 6:11 pm

      great post
      this is just part 2 though so stay tuned
      I have a feeling papa has thought of what you mentioned here 🙂

      Reply
    • Lonnie Starr says:
      March 3, 2013 at 8:15 pm

      Wow, you need to read this:

      Lonnie Starr says:
      March 3, 2013 at 7:38 pm

      The problem is not the shot, or the distance or the pulled clothing. The problem is that all three must be done at the same time that the shot is fired.

      With GZ on his back, he needs to get a shot that goes straight in front to back with no angle.

      HERE’S THE FORENSIC DEMO

      Okay, first item #1: If he’s on his back, the way that his right arm can move is restricted. All it can do is arc, up, down less than 180 degrees and side to side 30 to 40 degrees or so. The problem is, none of these positions can yield a straight in shot that has no angle to it.

      Now add item #2: To get a straight in shot, with no angle, Trayvon would have to have positioned his own chest, slightly to the right side of GZ, so that GZ could hold the gun on that spot with no angle. Okay, that causes another problem, namely, in this position, there’s not enough space between Trayvon’s chest and the gun, for the shot to be “intermediate range”, so the only available shot, considering this unlikely position occurred, is a full contact shot.

      And finally this brings us to item #3: GZ needs to pull Trayvon’s garments down and to the left, to displace the holes by the 4 to 5 inches displacement the garments exhibit. Obviously he can’t do this if his only straight shot with no angle is so close that it’s a contact shot. Because there’s no room to pull Trayvon’s garments 4 or more inches forward from his body, while at the same time maintaining the downward and leftward displacements.

      If they were to both be laying on the ground side by side, GZ’s left arm is restricted such that he cannot pull Trayvon’s garments to the left. He can only pull them forward, so this possible position is also out.

      The only way he gets the ability to satisfy all three necessities, is by being up off the ground. They can both be up, or GZ can be up, but those are the only possibilities that allow for the shot taken to be achieved. MOM will have to find a way to prevent these facts from being demonstrated to the jury or GZ is toast.
      |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

      You cannot take any one element out of the context, because they are all in operation at the time of the event. GZ could not have taken the shot exhibited, if he was in the position he claimed to be in. AND worse yet, in any other position, his claim of defense against a lethal attack fails, robbing him of justification for discharging his weapon at all. Of course, if you still don't believe it, then you are very welcomed to play defense counsel here. No one has yet succeeded in playing that role here using the evidence of course. And that's not because we don't let them. It's because when they run out of answers they refuse to surrender and resort to making things up.

      I'm searching for a kinesiologist who is interested enough in this case to do some motion studies. It turns out that kinesiology is a very big field with a wide diversity of disciplines. So anyone who wishes to join in the hunt for an agreeable kinesiologist do a wiki search to see which kind of practitioner you need, then look here in the database to find one: THE DOK KINESOLOGIST Data Base

      Reply
  8. Tzar says:
    March 3, 2013 at 1:15 pm

    Someone reply to this post so i can test something

    Reply
  9. Two sides to a story says:
    March 3, 2013 at 11:53 am

    Unrelated here, and I just posted this to the CNN puff piece comments where it is more related, but thought ya’ll might be amused.- Rep Keith Ellison tells Hannity what most of us wish we could – http://front.moveon.org/rep-keith-ellison-tells-sean-hannity-what-most-of-us-just-wish-we-could/

    Reply
  10. Trained Observer says:
    March 3, 2013 at 11:44 am

    Note to all: At trial, nobody will be talking kilometers. Distances cited will be in yards, feet, and inches — as in Fogen discharged the gun inches from Trayvon’s heart.

    Moreover, am hopeful BDLR and his second KISS.

    There’s nothing complicated about the fact that Fogen spotted, stalked, confronted and murdered Trayvon. Much of the parsing over distances, times, angles, etc. is irrelevant to the end result. In the end, the basics are what will count.

    Reply
  11. pat deadder says:
    March 3, 2013 at 11:28 am

    I think I love llmpapa.Can I ask where gz lived in relation to the clubhouse.Did he have to pass the clubhouse to go to the store.I’ve looked at maps but still can’t see this.He knew he had to shoot the poor kid because he had Trayvon at gunpoint and could be charged with many offenses when the police arrived.So imho it is murder 1.I guess that would be harder to prove.

    Reply
    • ay2z says:
      March 3, 2013 at 12:26 pm

      Easy, use Google, search for 1950 Retreat View Circle, Sanford Florida, and either go to the map, or easier yet, click on ‘get directions’ and the map will pull up of the whole area. Clubhouse is to the north at the pool.

      Reply
      • pat deadder says:
        March 3, 2013 at 5:54 pm

        Awesome ay2z.That was nice thank you.There is so much information.It seems you all haven’t left a stone unturned.

        Reply
    • ladystclaire says:
      March 3, 2013 at 1:46 pm

      @Pat, you are spot on in your comment. this POS did hold this kid at gunpoint and I have said this from the very beginning. he also had witnesses the entire time he was doing this. I honestly don’t know how these people can go on, living their lives day to day and sleeping at night, knowing what they know.

      They all knew that Trayvon was a child and, also that he had no knowledge about what he was being asked by this murdering fool and, yet they all stood by and didn’t do a damn thing to help Trayvon. I can just see Trayvon looking at them now asking, help me and, they both just turn their backs on him and go inside their home. how could anybody do something so despicable as that? they saw more than what they are telling and for that, they should be ashamed of themselves.

      Reply
      • Lonnie Starr says:
        March 3, 2013 at 4:45 pm

        It’s even worse if I’m reading right, where a witness says that after the shot there was suddenly enough light out there for her to see that the guy on top had a red jacket on. Meaning that these people didn’t even bother to turn on their lights when they heard the screaming.

        I doubt GZ would have taken the shot if the lights had come on. Because by that time he would have to figure there were too many eyes on him. GZ is sneaky, an atrocious sneak, the worst kind.

        Reply
      • pat deadder says:
        March 3, 2013 at 8:41 pm

        Ladystclaire wow I so agree with everything you said.I hope I would have more guts than these people.Every time I see anyone with a hoodie I think of this poor kid thinking he had lost the creepy guy.

        Reply
    • Lonnie Starr says:
      March 3, 2013 at 4:21 pm

      Here’s a MAP OF RETREAT AT TWIN LAKES that I made, in case anyone needs it.

      Reply
    • Cercando Luce says:
      March 3, 2013 at 10:43 pm

      If you mapquest Target Sanford FL, you get a map with all the nearby Target stores. Click on the one in Sanford. Then do a one- or two-click close up, and you’ll recognize Retreat at Twin Lakes to the south. You have already noted where gz lived, and with the Target on the map you might say to yourself, “Why did he drive all through the development when the rear entrance is so much closer to his house and puts him right on the road he needs to get on to go to Target?”

      Looks like he might have lied!

      Reply
      • onlyiamunitron says:
        March 3, 2013 at 11:41 pm

        “Why did he drive all through the development when the rear entrance is so much closer to his house and puts him right on the road he needs to get on to go to Target?”

        He drives all the way from the west side of the neighborhood to the east side, turns east on TTL, north on S. Oregon, west onto Oregon, which takes him past the north entrance to the neighborhood, on west and then north northwest to Rhinehart, where he turns right and heads northeast until he gets to W.P. Ball, where he tuns left and heads west to the Super Target at 1201 WP Ball Blvd, which is the one with the grocery section.

        Or he stays on the west side of the neighborhood and drives north up RVC until it bends to the east and intersects TTL at the clubhouse, where he turns left and heads north out to Oregon, where he turns left and heads west and then north northwest to Rhinehart, where he turns right and heads northeast until he gets to W.P. Ball, where he tuns left and heads west to the Super Target at 1201 WP Ball Blvd.

        Distance wise it’s pretty much six of one, half dozen of the other.

        unitron

        Reply
      • Cercando Luce says:
        March 4, 2013 at 1:51 pm

        Unitron,
        I agree it is just a little further to go north on RTL to the front exit, but you also have to drive more slowly on the residential street. On the other hand, maybe there is one more light to stop at if he exited the back way. But the RTL route out does gives no view of the mail shed, so it looks more likely to me that gz didn’t just happen to see Trayvon in passing, but was bothering him for a while from his truck.

        Reply
        • onlyiamunitron says:
          March 4, 2013 at 4:56 pm

          If you go by Zimmerman’s account, being able to see Martin at the mail boxes doesn’t matter.

          However, someone driving right behind him who kept going when George says he pulled into the clubhouse to call would, when they got to the intersection of RVC and TTL, where George would have turned left to go out to Oregon, be able to look to their right and the mail shed/kiosk/thing would be right there on that corner, with some vegetation in front of it, but probably not enough to completely block it from view.

          unitron

          Reply
  12. Jun says:
    March 3, 2013 at 10:59 am

    I do not believe Knox is an expert but now if he was used before, all his previous cases come into question and now a potentially guilty and dangerous person can walk free and potentially an innocent person put away by him

    He’s a perversion of justice

    I do not know how he could make such an outlandish conclusion when his experiment showed no factors similar to what he concluded

    All his gun test concluded was something was held in front of the target, the piece that was held in front of target had made contact with the gun muzzle when fired, and the gun muzzle was 3 inches away from the target when fired

    His test could only conclude that the shirt was held by hand in front of the target where the GSW would be

    His conclusion he gave on TV for his book had no similarities to his conducted test

    So he is either stupid or purposely misleading people for an agenda

    Reply
    • Malisha says:
      March 3, 2013 at 3:43 pm

      One vote for “stupid.” Can’t fix it.

      Reply
    • leander22 says:
      March 3, 2013 at 8:05 pm

      Jun, he adds his credentials in the end. His doctorate is in the works.

      15 years experience as

      police officer and detective with the Jacksonville (FL) Sheriff’s Office where he served in patrol, DUI enforcement, crime scene investigations, and traffic homicide investigations. Mr Knox has investigated hundreds of homicides by gunfire and other means.
      In his consultant practice, Mr. Knox has reconstructed shootings of all types for both criminal and civil cases including police-involved shootings, homicides, self-defense claims and accidental shootings. Mr. Knox has has reconstructed shootings in Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, Ohio, Illinois, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania.
      Mr. Knox has a Bachelor of Science degree in mechanical engineering from the University of North Florida and a Master of Science degree in forensic science from the University of Florida. He is currently a doctoral student in criminal justice at Nova Southeastern University. Mr. Knox has attended hundreds of hours of advanced training in forensic technology.
      Mr Knox has taught courses on crime scenes and forensic technology to law enforcement in Peru, the United Arab Emirates, the Republic of Georgia, and throughout the United States. He has taught for the Northeast Florida Criminal Justice Training Center, the Institute of Police Technology and Management, the U.S. State Department, Sirchie Fingerprint Laboratories, and Keiser University.
      Mr Knox has testified as an expert in crime scene reconstruction in state and federal courts in Florida, Alabama, Texas and Illinois.

      Reply
      • PiranhaMom says:
        March 3, 2013 at 11:43 pm

        So … Knox taught in Peru.

        Any link to the most notorious Afro-Puruvian strolling the city streets of Floida decked out an ankle-bracelet?

        Reply
      • cielo62 says:
        March 6, 2013 at 6:35 pm

        Leander22 – and yet, he’s proving himself to be such an idiot and incompetent to boot. Goes to show, degrees don’t mean anything if you don’t have sense!

        Sent from my iPod

        Reply
  13. Judy75201 says:
    March 3, 2013 at 10:51 am

    (Sorry to be off-topic, but there is no general thread.) I have been reading up on you and Crane-Station, and you both are a remarkable example of resilience. I wonder if you two might consider publishing a life-story book?

    Reply
  14. Cercando Luce says:
    March 3, 2013 at 10:47 am

    Obviously “Opportunity” Knox’s hand gestures (if you watch without the sound) are for describing man boobs.

    Reply
  15. colin black says:
    March 3, 2013 at 10:42 am

    Crane-Station says:

    March 2, 2013 at 10:06 pm

    Wow, that was amazing. Make absolutely no mistake about this at all, I know from my own legal case: the criminal justice system is rife with forensic fraud, invalid science, made-up BS, false testimony from ‘analysts’ and fake ‘experts’ just like this one. It is also impossible to know what their real credentials are, because they lie about their experience as well.
    @
    Simmilar in the UK
    A Guy set up his own investigation/phyrensics/company.
    He subcontracted most of the blood work ect out.
    He apeared as an expert wittness in scores if not hundreds of trials over a decade.
    All his phd ect were bought of the internet..
    There are no background checks done on these so called experts.

    I Know for a fact that at the Crown Courl level in the UK the old boy network runs the court.
    Many minor an by minor I Mean not murders rapes ect
    Minor to them but major to the accused .

    There cases are resolved in there clubs over lunch.
    Or drinks ……You can have this one old boy nod an a wink.

    I was on trial once an one of the detectives lied on the stand.
    Said I was totally unresponsive dureing interveiw.

    Didnt even reply no comment just sat there mouth zipped.

    After his testomany it was lunch an I was estatic as I knew that he had lied under oath an I had proof.
    My Barrister came down to see me an I explained that he is lieing .
    That I did give them a verbal statement an could prove it.
    As my soliciter phoned an asked if he needed to come down to the Station .
    I talked to him as did the police an said dont bother Ive given them my statement it been recorded an Im not speaking to them again.

    I said all thats in the depos I want you to recall that Detective again an get him to lie again on the stand.
    An then read out the part of the depos where it states my solicitor not required as verbal statement given already.

    He drew himself up to his full hight an looked at me as if I were something he had stepped in.
    Pointed to the dead powderpuff rat on his head an said,

    This is my wig I wear the wig because Im the one with the knowlage
    I know what In doing dont worry.

    He didnt follow my advice as he had already agreed that he was going to lose the case i m o.

    Even though it was touch an go a split jury at first judge sdaid he wanted a majority verdict.
    An then went against that an accepted a majority 7 g 5 ng.
    If that eejit had followed my advice I wouldve walked.
    An It wouldve been a just verdict as I was innocent
    An yeah I know they all say that but I was the exception to the rule

    Reply
  16. esentrick says:
    March 3, 2013 at 9:54 am

    LLMPapa you never cease to amaze me. Excellent work! I cant wait to view the remaining parts!

    Reply
  17. colin black says:
    March 3, 2013 at 9:53 am

    onlyiamunitron says:

    March 3, 2013 at 1:56 am

    “Either way you do not travel that distance after someone without any specific intent”

    And the argument will be over whether it was, especially after he got out on foot, a boneheaded intent to track Martin visually so as to direct the police to him when they arrived, or whether it was something more sinister.

    There are more possibilities than one.

    unitron
    @
    He had previous of following people he considered suspect.
    Followed an chased down a shoplifter also conducted a car chase on some guy he alleges spat on him.

    Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      March 3, 2013 at 11:58 am

      Bonehead thought he was on to something big. It appears to me, once we had some forensic evidence as well as his statements to police, his reconstruction, and his Hannity interview, was that he engaged in a combination of tracking Trayvon visually for the po-po despite not needing to do that, as well as his dreams of doing something big that in reality turned sinister as Bonehead continued his quest rather than keeping it visual.

      Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        March 3, 2013 at 11:59 am

        Sorry for calling him Bonehead. Thinking of Fogen just sullied my peaceful morning. *back to more pleasant things*

        Reply
      • gbrbsb says:
        March 3, 2013 at 6:38 pm

        Lol TSTAS… don’t think “bonehead” was included in the derogatory remarks… almost sounds like an affectionate reprimand to a kid!!!

        Reply
  18. You all have thoughtful comments says:
    March 3, 2013 at 8:38 am

    I just realized I can show all of you what to do in order to highlight a
    quotation if, in my illustration, I misspell blockquote.

    Type your quotation

    Reply
    • You all have thoughtful comments says:
      March 3, 2013 at 8:45 am

      Okay, that did not work. Now instead of using at the end of blockquote, I am going to substitute * for those symbols:

      *blockquote*Type your quotation*/blockquote*

      Reply
    • aussie says:
      March 3, 2013 at 9:39 am

      Just copy the bit you’re quoting and paste it, with quotes.

      I’ve seen forums with 1 1/2 screens of nested blockquotes, just to add 3 words of comment Nobody will read it anyway. Just name the person and quote the one paragraph you’re answering.

      .

      Reply
      • ay2z says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:07 pm

        A simple method that you don’t have to remember at all, is google WordPress blockquotesm wordpress tips, and you can find the wordpress page with the correct html, just copy and paste that here, or, keep a copy in a notepad or stickies for easy access. Then all you have to do is remove the middle text and replace it with your post.

        Easy peasy (well, I need easy peasy and it worked for me 😉

        Reply
  19. Leroy Eugene Hudson says:
    March 3, 2013 at 5:01 am

    Me niether, I can’t wait for the next video. I was serious about making a request after you’re done. Much of this stuff you’ve already covered

    Can you make a video where you it says “GZ confesses” then compile a series of fruedian slips like the one where he said “I tried to cover his mouth ” when he meant to say he was trying to cover my mouth. Then show the link where they found TM’s dna on GZ’s sleeve(I’ll look and link it up on monday).

    Where GZ said (seemed like he was bragging) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXyu5F-PCgM he had a wrist lock on TM and then shot him. There is no question in my mind that he had some martial arts training with his law enforcement training. I suspect that’s the only part he passed.

    There’s a few more.

    It’s just a request, if you think it will help.

    Your humble admirer… Eugene.

    Reply
    • Leroy Eugene Hudson says:
      March 3, 2013 at 5:04 am

      Oops, I meant to say they found TM’s DNA on GZ’s sleeve but they didn’t find his blood on his sleeve which suggests to me that its saliva. Hence he got it covering TM’s mouth.

      Reply
  20. towerflower says:
    March 3, 2013 at 1:00 am

    LLMPapa, Excellent work, you truly are an amazing person. I can’t wait until the next video and when you get them all done send them to Channel 6’s Tony P.

    Reply
  21. whonoze says:
    March 3, 2013 at 12:07 am

    I’m not sure Knox is in the bag for GZ. He may just be stupid. The hook for his book is that it’s a dispassionate account of the forensic evidence that calls both ‘sides’ into question.

    The other news piece that TV station did discussed his conclusion that GZ could not have walked to RVC and back to the T as he says, as the distance is too short and he would have gotten to the T well before his NEN call ended, so he hardly could have arrived there several minutes later at the point the confrontation began. As I’ve said all along, all you need to disprove GZ’s statement is the NEN recording, a map, and a clock. Knox seems to have figured that out anyway. So the Z-Team thinks he’s a shill for the prosecution.

    He’s probably banking on an audience that thinks “if both partisan sides hate him, he’s probably right.”

    But whatever his motive, he’s way to sloppy to be a ‘scientific expert.’ LLMPapa has already shown us the gravity evidence that Zimmerman was on top. Knox seems not to have considered the blood trails at all. The problem is that there is another plausible explanation for the distance between the hoodie and the chest at the moment the shot ws fired other than ‘TM was on top,’ and there isn’t an equally plausible alternate explanation for the blood trails other than ‘GZ was on top.’ (Oh, and nevermind W18’s statement either…)

    Anyway, kudos again to LLMPapa. I do hope at the end you’ll make a summary video that’s put the whole shot alignment analysis in one longer clip, for easier reference to people going back to the issue later on YT.

    Reply
    • ay2z says:
      March 3, 2013 at 12:11 am

      And the grass on the front of the killer’s shoes.

      Reply
    • PiranhaMom says:
      March 3, 2013 at 4:03 am

      Can we get a contributor to comment on this ….

      If Trayvon were on top with the shirts falling away ftrom his torso due to gravity, wouldn’t the force of the 9mm hollow-point propel the shirt(s) toward the Trayvon’s torso?

      And wouldn’t it carry minute cotton fibers with it, into the wound?
      I hunt upland game,and when cleaning the birds I’m always fishing out little feathers and tufts along with the shot.

      Can others share their experiences?

      Reply
      • aussie says:
        March 3, 2013 at 5:07 am

        In theory the person underneath could grab a fistful of the top person’s shirts, too…………. except why would they want to keep him there, if he is beating them to a pulp and not trying to move away?

        I don’t believe Trayvon was on top though.

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          March 3, 2013 at 5:49 am

          @Aussie, It’s a control thing” for Zimmerman. He doesn’t want Trayvon wriggling around while Zim shoots him.

          Who here has heard Zim yell “Keep quiet!” on Jenna’s 911 call just before the shot? Zim doesn’t want neighbors to see this altercation.

          I think that’s why Jeremy tells Jenna “He warned me to keep quiet.” Jeremy thinks Zim is speaking to HIM.

          Jeremy knows Zimmrman and may have seen GZ draw his gun – good enough reason, Jeremy thinks, for pal Zimmerman to want him to “keep quiet.”

          Reply
      • Jun says:
        March 3, 2013 at 5:27 am

        Yes you are correct

        I made the same observation

        if only gravity was causing the shirt to go away from the body, the exploding force would cause the shirt to blow back into the body and the ballistic readings of the shirts would be different

        In fact, the hoodie would have after math stippling, because after the clothing is blown back into the body the after shot residue would have flown onto the hoodie

        If I had the forensic equipment I would provide the test to do this, but I do not but I know what would happen

        Does not mean much anyways because that is not what the readings were, and the trajectory and misalignment of the bulletholes of both the victim’s shirts with the GSW blows away his gravity theory anyways

        There’s only one way the ballistic readings are what they were and it is because

        a) The defendant grabbed the victim by the shirt when he shot the victim

        b) The defendant pulled both the hoodie and the undershirt down and to the left, and also away from the victim’s body and towards the defendant, when he fired the shot

        Now add that the the defendant’s statement that he knew he was out of time and he did not want the cops to see him with his gun out and it is reasonable to believe that the defendant was holding the kid at gunpoint (note the desperate screams for help, and you can see the party in danger was the kid)

        So before he even shot the kid, the defendant had already committed aggravated stalking and aggravated assault with a firearm, which alone would be about 30 years already

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        March 3, 2013 at 5:39 am

        Aussie

        Considering the forensic and ballistic readings, if he pulled the victim from the bottom, the momentum would cause the victim to fall forward, hence the readings would be vastly different

        Also look at this

        The trajectory would also be vastly different by shooting someone from the bottom

        The reason the way the forensic and ballistic readings are the way they are because the defendant never shot the kid while underneath him, the misalignment, trajectory, the contact shot readings on the hoodie and undershirt, and the GSW reading intermediate, physics, and momentum, the fact that there is no foreign dna at all on the victim’s hands and sleeves and cuffs… it all does not line up with the defendant’s story

        Add the blood trails on the defendant’s head meaning that gravity would have had him upright with his head slightly tilted forward, at approx 45 degree angle

        The kid screaming

        The witnesses

        The only way for the forensics, ballistics, and witness testimony to be the way it is, is that the defendant attacked and shot the kid either standing or on top of the victim

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          March 3, 2013 at 6:14 am

          @Jun

          A little different from your vido clip – I believe GZ was kneeling on Trayveon’s arms to immobilize him – part of the pain in Trayvon’s scream. And terror – no way to defend himself.

          This let GZ draw the gun in complete safety to himself and, leaning forward, perfectly place the shot to Trayvon’s heart, avoiding his own hand.

          This would put GZ’s knees two inches or so above ground, allowing the toe of his boot to connect neatly with the St. Augustine grass – grass shreds which he carried with him on that boot-toe all the way to Sanford PD that night.

          Remember. Zimmerman’s a bouncer. He knew how to immobilize the kid.

          Even witness John W6 said the guy below was attempting to right himself – (gain the upper body position). This was in the 2nd interview.

          AND, recall GZ not knowing how to explain which way Trayvon “fell off him” when Serino questioned him? But Zimmerman DOES remember getting on to Trayvon’s back. Incidentally, while I use the term “flip” when I say GZ flipped over TM’s body after checking for a gun in front, then flipped TM over to check for a gun in a rear holster, then check to be sure there was no exit wound and the bullet was still inside Trayvon – FLIP is the actual word Serino used in the interview.

          Reply
      • Dave says:
        March 3, 2013 at 8:03 am

        Here’s a pic of the type and brand of ammo the killer used:

        One common complaint about hollowpoint handgun bullets is that when fired through heavy clothing the cavity in the tip will fill up with fibers, which inhibits expansion. While the killer’s bullet performed as intended in Trayvon’s body, I think it’s pretty certain that it would have taken cotton and polyester fibers with it. I would guess that it would move the shirts somewhat although I have no idea how far.

        Reply
      • You all have thoughtful comments says:
        March 3, 2013 at 8:26 am

        jun, I agree with you when you write

        The trajectory would also be vastly different by shooting someone from the bottom

        Reply
      • aussie says:
        March 3, 2013 at 9:35 am

        I know GZ wasn’t on the bottom. I was referring entirely only to PiranhaMom’s question about the shirt being pushed by the bullet, if it was just hanging loose (as the “expert” says it may have been).

        Hanging loose, the bullet WOULD push the shirt closer to the body. Held in a tight grip it would just get a hole in it and the bullet keep going.

        Of course all the other angles don’t add up to this.

        The main need for grabbing the shirt would have been to stop Trayvon twisting away sideways from his underneath position. Watch the videos again… GZ demonstrates reaching out, grabbing, twisting with a pulling motion, IN THE MIDDLE. A wrist lock would be out to one side and NOT pulling towards himself, as that would drag a person on top right down onto himself.

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 4, 2013 at 7:18 am

        Of course he just may have a couple of things of interest so if anyone does buy it they could maybe summarize anything of importance for the rest!

        The only thing that is highly apparent is his political agenda. To go back to my latest obsession with the “evil media theme” triggered by unitron among others, he carefully selects between “evil media misinformation” and the conservative political correct, from his perspective, view on matters.

        I remember times were he lost his “narrational distance” to Fogen’s tale, that is why I objected to whonoze take above:

        I’m not sure Knox is in the bag for GZ.

        His narrative is odd anyway and his argument pretty uninspired, when I read his résumé in the end, I wondered if he had simply sprinkled in some of his latest studies for his doctorate occasionally. But these little details are odd in combination with his obsession with “misinformation”. So the researcher has to be completely unbiased, but the acceptance of partial right wing revelations, defined as truth about the case, does not hinder or bias his own perception? And “race” doesn’t matter, but it matters that Corey is a “olive-complected, Middle-Eastern woman”? And it matters that her predecessors were all “white males”? Or one has to concentrate on black-on-white crime to treat Trayvon’s fate appropriately and in an unbiased way?

        Take care, gbrbsb, did I get this right? Yes. 😉

        Reply
        • onlyiamunitron says:
          March 4, 2013 at 9:19 am

          “To go back to my latest obsession with the “evil media theme” triggered by unitron among others…”

          I never said anything about “evil media”, I said they were in it for monetary and not ideological reasons, and I was speaking about all of the commercial news outlets, regardless of the ideological slant of their respective audiences.

          If you have a political difference with this Knox guy, feel free to leave me out of it.

          My interest in this case is apolitical.

          unitron

          Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 4, 2013 at 5:25 pm

        I said they were in it for monetary and not ideological reasons, and I was speaking about all of the commercial news outlets, regardless of the ideological slant of their respective audiences.

        I have noticed that you have a rather simplistic approach on matters, perfectly illustrated by your reduction of media functions to money.

        How about money and politics in the U.S. and is the side that represents the Justice for Trayvon camp the one representing power, for instance from ads? Maybe you like to elaborate?

        Is this all media is about, or only in this case. Meaning only in this case media is all about money? And how exactly did it work below the easy slogan? To what extend and why could they make more money on this case than e.g. the presidential election, or pure entertainment and talk-shows, sports or any other TV format. You explain to me.

        If you have a political difference with this Knox guy, feel free to leave me out of it.

        Well, only on the surface it is a political difference. I have nothing against conservatives, but I am very suspicious of the specific type of right wing thought this guy channels into a book, while advertising it as a self-declared unbiased take of the forensic evidence of the case. You have to understand, as a German I am sensitive considering specific trends on the right.

        My interest in this case is apolitical.

        Nothing that concerns people can ever be apolitical, politics starts with the way people treat each other.

        The basic political component of the Trayvon Martin case can be summarized with a Hannah Arendt quote: Violence begins, were talking ends. Notice Serino didn’t even need to know Arendt to understand that. Notice too Serino/Singleton’s responses to Fogen’s take on matters.

        I occasionally declare myself apolitical too, but that is a simplification. Fact is I am more interested in the micro-perspective of politics: human interaction, and in this context I am very, very “political”, always was. And I have a special dislike for people who choose easy victims, no matter if in discourse or in a physical fight. It makes me sick, understand?

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 4, 2013 at 5:31 pm

        I am tired, but here something is missing:

        [is the justice 4 Trayvon Martin camp the side] representing power, or to choose your hobby horse, financial power through and from from ads?

        If you think, please it explain why.

        You have to understand that my limited grasp of US politics would strictly consider ALEC and NRA the much more powerful group than the one representing Justice for Trayvon.

        But maybe I have to wait for your elboration of the money, media and the Trayvon Martin case to start with. I am waiting. See you tomorrow.

        Reply
        • PiranhaMom says:
          March 4, 2013 at 6:34 pm

          @Leander22, Unitron and the rest of the students –

          I am not part of the Leander-Unitron et al debate. My question (quoted) re the hollow-point 9mm bullet carrying cotton fibers from the hoodie + sweatshirt into the wound related to my expectation of that happening if the shirts were
          just hanging off a “mounted” Trayvon above Zimmerman when the shot was fired. Knox portrays this.

          I think Knox’s theory is garbage and does not square with the facts. And, if in fact, the outer hoodie were weighted down by the can of Arizona Tea, then it would NOT result in the two garments (one weighted & stretched, one lying down loose) having matching bullet-holes as the M.E. reported.

          The matching holes prove the garments were grasped, stretched away from Zimmerman’s placement of the gun barrel, and stretched away from Trayvon’s torso. Thus the hollow-point did not force the inner shirt into the wound. Or outer and inner shirt. The bullet tore through the shirts, the airspace, then into th body.

          None of this relates to the discussion between Leander and Unitron re the profit-oriented media. That’s not my issue on this site. My quote above re upland game hunting just got dragged into this from upthread. Please ignore it as if it somehow related to the discussion on the media.

          It doesn’t.

          Thanks.

          Reply
          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 4, 2013 at 6:59 pm

            Darn, I was hoping you’d answer him for me and save me the trouble.

            I don’t seem to be getting through to him.

            As for you getting what was probably aimed at me, I have no problem blaming it all on WordPress.com

            unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 4, 2013 at 10:23 pm

            @Unitron,

            Maybe it’s better for us all to be examining the crime that is at hand. Personally, I’d still like to know what kind of bushes grow between the blocks of condos in the passages that GZ could have run through to head Trayvon “off at the pass.”

            And I’d like to know what FDLE was marking with yellow tape when they revisited the death scene. What was contiguous to the sidewalk? One of those killer sprinkler heads?

            And when are they going to produce the fiber report?

            I know, I know … I’m nagging. Again. (sigh)

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 5, 2013 at 2:03 pm

            “Personally, I’d still like to know what kind of bushes grow between the blocks of condos in the passages that GZ could have run through to head Trayvon “off at the pass.”

            And I’d like to know what FDLE was marking with yellow tape when they revisited the death scene. What was contiguous to the sidewalk? One of those killer sprinkler heads?”

            In reverse order:

            I think the orange blobs in the daylight photos were probably some kind of marking paint to do with the positions where they set up the Total Station crime scene photo surveyor’s tripod-type gear.

            From the pictures I’ve seen, it looks like building consisting of 3 or 4 households side by side, grass, another building, grass, another building, with a couple of small trees in the grassy area between buildings.

            In other words, if you were standing in front of 1121 Twin Trees and heard something and wanted to run around back to check it out, you could probably go either left or right.

            There are shrubs, waist high at most, up against the backs of the units, but I don’t think there’s much hiding room behind them.

            unitron

          • Frederick Leatherman says:
            March 5, 2013 at 2:06 pm

            Not unless you get small . . . real small.

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 5, 2013 at 3:59 pm

            Not to mention that exiting from having been crouched down behind them woud likely be a rather noisy and face scratching process.

            unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 5, 2013 at 4:57 pm

            Thanks, Unitron – something to think about.

            One of my wildest intuitions on this case (and I’m not saying my intuition’s any good) is that there was always an accomplice in place who, when Zimmerman dashed out of his truck to chase

            down Trayvon in the non-vehicular area, “el accomplice” immediately drove the truck over to the back exit to catch the fucking coon before he escaped from RTL. Fucking coon never appears in view, and accomplice realizes the guy must be lurking in the interior dog walk area.

            Accomplice then spots GZ, who was lumbering south towards that exit. Accomplice drives north, hops out of truck in front of GZ, barks “What the F you doin’ out HERE??” then smacks GZ a smart one across the old kisser, hops back in the shtruck, and heads back to the initial parking spot, hops out to not be discovered, and disappears on foot.

            Meanwhile, GZ, suffering from a “back of the hand” to the old kisser – and smashed by the ring on that hand, is bleeding profusely from the mouth/nose, and likely a smash to the back of his head as he’s knocked to the sidewalk, gamely (if groggily) gets up and dutifully heads through the opening between condos, spots Trayvon and the attack is on ….

            Question for this fantasy: what ring(s) do Shellie and Osterman wear ?

      • leander22 says:
        March 5, 2013 at 8:26 am

        Thanks, PirnhaMom, the Arizona can would of course would matter. Good point. And that is exactly why I found Knox’s book very odd. Mind you strictly he seems to address people that have not looked more closely into the case. His target audience seems to be the mostly uniformed on matters.

        and I was speaking about all of the commercial news outlets, regardless of the ideological slant of their respective audiences.

        Unitron, let me return to this. I think you are plain wrong on this. There is already some research and it may well increase. My impression is if someone would do a more careful study on media they would encounter the usual early talking points in social conversations about the case mirroring the positions from their respective media sources. For the most part they did not come up with them themselves but got the argument from the sources that usually watch or listen to.

        Concerning the economical aspect: If US media is for the most part commercial to what extend would it matter that this story was broadcast widely. Or more precisely, what exactly makes the commercial difference? Could it be that the story itself offers quite a bit of identification for either the Fogen or Trayvon camp? Could a story like that be pushed if it wasn’t meaningful to both camps in different ways? The attempts on the right to paint Trayvon as what Fogen perceived him as, is no accident. If Fogen says: He seems to be on drugs, he had to be on drugs, better still he had to be a drug dealer and a thug. Only this can explain the tragedy for them.

        I got interested in the story not because of US or European media, for that matter, but via a blog I read concerning mainly US foreign policy and the military. What started my interest wasn’t US media, but the core elements of the story itself. No doubt except for Florida’s sunshine law, and the special interests voiced by media plaid a minor role in it. Although media no doubt drew the wrath of my former “blog friend”, who is a former intelligence man, NRA member for life and an ardent supporter of GZ. In a private mail the told me: I was naive if I did not believe that “some” blacks hate whites. That’s how he deals with the story. He trained soldiers that could be killers at that age, he said. Did they train Trayvon in his school, was he trained on the streets. He didn’t need any evidence for that. What some do was enough.

        I don’t seem to be getting through to him.

        Not that it matters, I am not male.

        If you want me to pay attention to your specific talking points you have to make better points. 😉

        Reply
    • gbrbsb says:
      March 4, 2013 at 6:09 am

      And how, how, sloppy!!! The quote Knox uses on the first page:

      “Things are not always what they seem; the first appearance deceives many; the intelligence of a few perceives what has been carefully hidden.”

      is NOT from Plato’s “Phaedrus” as he attributes, but from the Roman poet and fabulist Phaedrus, 300 or so years later, known for re-compiling many of Aesop’s fables!

      I say let ’em have him!

      Reply
  22. You all have thoughtful comments says:
    March 2, 2013 at 11:23 pm

    Someone just said that a diwata threw in the towel today??

    Reply
    • You all have thoughtful comments says:
      March 2, 2013 at 11:31 pm

      Is there a diwata who is a gz supporter?

      Reply
      • Rachael says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:56 pm

        Diwattaman. He didn’t exactly throw in the towel. He just presented a scenario that he feels would satisfy everyone.

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:04 am

        How is that possible?

        Reply
      • gbrbsb says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:21 am

        Is there a diwata who is a gz supporter?

        YAHTC…Yes! But he has one, albeit small, saving grace… a good collection of the evidence files and other relative docs, videos, etc. on his blog!

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:32 am

        Thanks Rachael. The only part I think D-man got wrong was the Fogen winning the appeal. There I think he is a bit off, imo.

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:39 am

        Correction: Should not have said ‘only’ but the ‘main’ which then cancels the rest of his scenario out. Book deals, etc, etc

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 3, 2013 at 4:46 pm

        Diwattaman. He didn’t exactly throw in the towel. He just presented a scenario that he feels would satisfy everyone.

        The only part I think D-man got wrong was the Fogen winning the appeal. There I think he is a bit off, imo.

        Rachael, kimmi, would you be so kind and point out what you are alluding to? The specific article. I don’t want to read all his recent articles. Besides concerning the top-ten-myth-and-manipulations that seems quite an old article now moved up slightly.

        Reply
    • kimmi says:
      March 3, 2013 at 12:47 am

      I wonder what Fogen thought when he read Dman’s ‘summary?’
      Especially this part:

      “However most of that will go to Crump et al. and O’Mara but George will at least have a little something left to restart what meager life he’ll have left anyway.”

      IOW, sucks to be you, George!

      Reply
      • kimmi says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:52 am

        Of course, I hope and pray he gets convicted, never again to see the light of day…

        Ok, back to read only mode, too many cold meds today, I’m all over the map! Have a good night everyone!

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 3, 2013 at 4:52 pm

        I tried Google’s help in finding a link to that quote. Doesn’t work whatever part of it I choose.

        kimmi: The only part I think D-man got wrong was the Fogen winning the appeal. There I think he is a bit off, imo.

        Hmm? Everything else he got right. kimmi, you made me curious.

        Reply
    • kimmi says:
      March 3, 2013 at 1:05 am

      Just an FYI: This post has already been reported over ‘there’

      Ok, that will be my last post for today, because everything in my head is not coming out here like I’m thinking it is when I write it!

      Reply
    • kimmi says:
      March 3, 2013 at 1:16 am

      You all have thoughtful comments says:
      March 2, 2013 at 11:23 pm
      Someone just said that a diwata threw in the towel today??

      Just an FYI: The above has already been reported over ‘there’

      Reply
      • You all have thoughtful comments says:
        March 3, 2013 at 6:47 am

        I am confused. When you two write the following, do you mean that those people actually think that diwattaman is really on Trayvon’s side now? —-

        gbrbsb says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:21 am
        Is there a diwata who is a gz supporter?

        YAHTC…Yes! But he has one, albeit small, saving grace… a good collection of the evidence files and other relative docs, videos, etc. on his blog!

        kimmi says:
        March 3, 2013 at 1:16 am
        You all have thoughtful comments says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:23 pm
        Someone just said that a diwata threw in the towel today??

        Just an FYI: The above has already been reported over ‘there’

        Reply
      • gbrbsb says:
        March 3, 2013 at 8:20 am

        @YAHTC

        My reply first quoted your question, but I forgot to blockquote it or use quotation marks, so it should have read:

        Is there a diwata who is a gz supporter?

        and then my answer.

        I thought you were the one with doubts as to whether Diwata was on the Z team and I was just saying he was but that he has a useful stash of evidence files etc. So no I don’t think DW is on the T team now but I haven’t yet found the article, post or whatever referred to either where he throws in the towel.

        Reply
      • You all have thoughtful comments says:
        March 3, 2013 at 8:34 am

        Got it. Thanks, gbrbsb! Now as I read everything again, I realize
        I was not too bright the first time around.

        Rachael saw D’s post. Maybe, she can give us the link to D. post.

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 3, 2013 at 5:01 pm

        yahtc, well the only thing I found interesting in Diwataman’s collection of Evidence, Articles and Blogs, is that I encountered a lot of political opponents from other or related topics in his collection.

        What he was useful for occasionally, were matters like the audio-recording of a hearing.

        I am a bit baffled by kimmi today, maybe he needs sleep. But I would appreciate a link to the one final summary of his position on the case, as alluded to above. I doubt he will ever move over though. I really do. Someone that cites the American Thinker? To pick out just one. Enormously hard to believe.

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 3, 2013 at 5:11 pm

        yahtc, if I may introduce you to my late friend Undercover Black Man/David Mills on Whiter Shades of Jazz or what the American Thinker considers racism. I could give you other examples. They did not have attracted David’s attention at the time it seems. But they had attracted mine at the time.

        RIP my friend, I miss you on this topic. Would be great if you were still around.

        Reply
      • gbrbsb says:
        March 3, 2013 at 8:09 pm

        @YAHTC
        @Leander22

        I think the DW might be one I’ve just been reading. I just googled DW (in full of course) selected the main WordPress page link for him and just started to scroll down from there (can’t put the link as I’ll probably be hung, drawn, and quatered!)

        I’ve only skimmed through some bits as yet because its quite long and involved with lotsa lotsa links, as well as, cartoons, etc. but he sure is pissed with MOM!

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 4, 2013 at 5:41 pm

        gbrbsb, I had Diwataman on my radar even before Jeralyn Merritt started to praise and link his summaries on case issues. Take a look at his hoodie take in his 10 myth of the Trayvon Martin case. Watermelon versus Ice Tea, how very, very significant. 😉

        Since I am small and slender, I often err into the youth department of clothes stores for casual wear. At one point in time it became rather difficult to get a sweater without hood. So some burglars wear it too. What a huge surprise. I cannot take this type of “righteous citizen” argument serious, really. I won’t check though, if he deleted or changed something, that seems to be an older article.

        Malisha would be much more able to tell you all you need to know about Diwataman. He is a poor human being, I feel sorry for him.

        Reply
  23. Ty Flair says:
    March 2, 2013 at 11:14 pm

    Great work LLMPapa, If that so call expert watch the store video he would of known that Trayvon hoodie fitted him well,it was not to big. Watching that video my eyes are bloodshot red fill with anger. I will never rest until JUSTICE is serve.

    Reply
  24. gbrbsb says:
    March 2, 2013 at 11:04 pm

    Anyone any idea why my “notifications” could have packed up. From 2 or 3 days ago I have no notificaation if anyone replies to a comment I make (I don’t receive replies or comments by email, cos it was filling my inbox something terrible). Until then the notifications icon would go yellow and I could pull down to read and reply. Now the only thing it notifies me of is that 2 people are following my blog… not a blog merely a place I store a few things to use here!

    Further my WordPress notifications page doesn’t work either, not for latest, unread, comments, follows, etc. All I get is “No notifications. Time to go bowling.”! I hate bowling!

    Reply
    • Frederick Leatherman says:
      March 2, 2013 at 11:32 pm

      I have no idea.

      Not terribly reassuring I suppose.

      I’ll check, but in the meantime do you have a preferences choice and is there a file that you need to clear or refresh?

      Reply
      • gbrbsb says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:40 pm

        Thanks professor, checked the settings and anyway I’ve changed nothing on my side for months. It may be I need to clear something but hoped someone might have or had had the same prob. I have put out a call to the general WordPress support community so fingers crossed!

        Reply
    • shannoninmiami says:
      March 3, 2013 at 1:32 am

      me too. they aren’t working on my pc or on the phone app. I keep *starting* to look into what’s wrong but then I get distracted…

      I defiantly gonna do it tomorrow tho!
      hopfully lol

      Reply
      • gbrbsb says:
        March 3, 2013 at 7:29 am

        @shannoninmiami

        Oooooh, Shannon! That is so interesting! The only notification I do get now when I pull the menu bar icon or go to notifications, is a notification I NEVER got before this failure, i.e. that you and “Thats_so_not_racist” have followed my blog.

        I wonder if “Thats_so_not_racist” is having the same problem?!

        If case you don’t remember even visiting my “blog” which is not really a blog and not very interesting, on the first page it has a little ditty I wrote about zimmerman, and the few comments all my own, mainly two videos of black kids singing “Pie Jesu” with two different sopranos which I posted there first to make sure they worked properly for the memorial post on the 26th. If you haven’t already, perhaps if both you and “TSNR” un-followed my blog it would make notifications work again!

        Reply
    • rayvenwolf says:
      March 3, 2013 at 3:18 pm

      Same here. Has been like this since maybe friday?

      Reply
  25. bettykath says:
    March 2, 2013 at 10:53 pm

    Excellent work!

    Reply
  26. cielo62 says:
    March 2, 2013 at 10:48 pm

    >^..^< proving once again that this "expert" is looking for his own payday and NOT justice.

    Reply
  27. ay2z says:
    March 2, 2013 at 10:42 pm

    One day, I’d like to see an exposé on who these media consortiums are, how the media can manipulate what jurors bring with them that will result in a bias even without the juror being aware they have preconceptions based on what they have heard beforehand.

    That puts third party interests in a position to manipulate a jury trial result, without anyone recognizing the influence.

    Reply
    • onlyiamunitron says:
      March 2, 2013 at 10:52 pm

      “One day, I’d like to see an exposé on who these media consortiums are…”

      We’ll have those big conglomerates that control almost all of the media get right on that for you.

      But seriously, they don’t care if Zimmerman is convicted or acquitted.

      What they care about is using the story to get readers and watchers and listeners to keep their ratings up to keep their ad rates up to keep their incomes up, although in the case of print media it’s more like to keep their incomes from plunging downward quite so much.

      unitron

      Reply
      • ay2z says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:06 pm

        How is it that Baez has this alleged special alliance with some big consortium (alleged consortium) that allowed him to take a death penalty defense case pro bono (now listed as creditor for close to one million dollars) and he allegedly offered fogen a free ride with a defense team led only by this lawyer? (according to Frank Taffeem for what that’s worth)

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          March 2, 2013 at 11:47 pm

          @ay2z

          ….offered fogen a free ride with a defense team led only by this lawyer? (according to Frank Taffeem for what that’s worth)

          Also according to Taaffe, GZ met with Baez. Evidently the meeting didn’t go well, because GZ left Baez’s office and drove into Jacksonville thinking that he was going to meet with Corey. Instead, he was arrested, charged with 2nd degree murder.

          I am reminded that Baez could have turned Serino down also, but he didn’t, which makes me suspect that GZ said something, or Baez saw something about GZ, that changed his mind about defending that killer.

          Reply
      • kimmi says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:57 pm

        You mean Rene Stutzman is not really on the defenses payroll?

        Reply
        • onlyiamunitron says:
          March 3, 2013 at 1:03 am

          “You mean Rene Stutzman is not really on the defenses payroll?”

          Do you really think they have enough money to entice her to risk throwing away her career?

          unitron

          Reply
      • ay2z says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:05 am

        Xena, interesting thought.

        Baez may have been attracted to the possibility of defending a Hispanic client, and if you are right, and if it was Baez who dropped the potential client (not as Taffee’s account), did he see a client he could not control?

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          March 3, 2013 at 12:33 am

          @ay2z

          Baez may have been attracted to the possibility of defending a Hispanic client, and if you are right, and if it was Baez who dropped the potential client (not as Taffee’s account), did he see a client he could not control?

          Oh, idk. I think that Baez just wants a reputation as a criminal defense attorney and it has nothing to do with race. I need to watch Taaffe’s interview again because it was not my impression that he said GZ dropped Baez but actually the other way around.

          Maybe Baez asked GZ why he abandoned Sonner without so much as a good-bye and GZ told him, and he didn’t like the reason(s). If I were an attorney and a potential client went rogue on their last attorney, I would think hard and long about it.

          Reply
      • ladystclaire says:
        March 3, 2013 at 1:29 am

        @Kimmi, What? you could have fooled me because, she acts as if she is one of his body guards. at the hearing on 02/05/13, she didn’t leave the courtroom until the idiot body guard came for Fogen and his baby sitter. she was seated in back on the defense side and, everyone else had cleared the courtroom except Fogen and the sitter. when Fogen got up to leave she walked out right behind him and his sitter.

        I don’t care for this woman and, she is really biased for the defense and, IMO a good reporter does not do that. she walked out of that courtroom as if she was somebody special, just because she was trailing behind the murderer and his people.

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:41 pm

        unitron, you are spreading half-truths, the question I keep asking myself is, if you are too dim-lighted to notice? That is, if you are tricked yourself or trying to trick others with this talking point.

        There have been two narratives spread by these “big conglomerates” from the start. It feels only one worries you. Why would that be? I haven’t seen one example that the narrative defending George Zimmerman ever troubled you.

        Reply
        • onlyiamunitron says:
          March 3, 2013 at 10:43 pm

          “unitron, you are spreading half-truths…”

          What are they, and which half am I omitting?

          unitron

          Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:45 pm

        Well CNN and Fox news keep their readers attention focused on Zimmerman’s innocence. Is there good money and bad money earned. In other words bad money by NBC and MSNBC, and good money earned by CNN and Fox news?

        Maybe you are only a simpleton, and not a dis-information agent or a shill?

        Reply
    • Xena says:
      March 3, 2013 at 12:23 am

      To tell you the truth, ay2z, if I were not involved in this daily, I would know very little of what the media reports about the case. The only time I’ve watched Faux News since 2008 was when GZ was interviewed by Hannity. I didn’t know what Hannity looked like before that program.

      I only watch CNN when there is a crisis, and even then, as an alternative to MSNBC.

      I only know of the Orlando Sentinel and Renee because of links and discussions here.

      Some of my friends who work full-time only know the 10 second honorable mentions on national news when there is a hearing in GZ’s case.

      As much as the media would like to believe that it has power to persuade the masses, the truth is that the masses only listen, watch and read what is important to them.

      Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 3, 2013 at 1:03 pm

        Exactly, Xena. The whole argument is in fact disinformation with a political agenda, a misuse of the fact that most of us do not swallow hook line and sinker what we are told by any news channel, at least not in cases that are of interest to us; neither are news 100% reliable ever. People make in fact mistakes.

        I have not once witnessed completely faultless reporting in topics I am interested in, in other words know a little about, it is more or less a given.

        I have also starting with 19 witnessed the yellow press’ distortion of facts for pure sensationalism with little attention to truth. But this is not what happened in this case. In the earliest times information, interestingly the ones most cited by Team Fogen, or maybe unitron, had to be deficient. Censorship or silence always produces rumors, people obviously tried to understand what is happening.

        Reply
        • onlyiamunitron says:
          March 3, 2013 at 10:47 pm

          “In the earliest times information, interestingly the ones most cited by Team Fogen, or maybe unitron, had to be deficient. ”

          Specifically, what deficient earliest time information have I cited?

          Other than what I’ve cited as examples of mis-information.

          unitron

          Reply
  28. Frederick Leatherman says:
    March 2, 2013 at 10:41 pm

    Since Corey and BDLR are from Jacksonville, they must know Knox, who claims to be a former crime scene reconstruction expert for the Jacksonville Police Department.

    I hope they are not relying on his “expert” opinions.

    Excellent work, Papa.

    Reply
    • kimmi says:
      March 2, 2013 at 11:44 pm

      I heard the prosecution got DeMaio early on, but I can’t find the link anymore. Sorry.

      Reply
    • Jun says:
      March 3, 2013 at 5:19 am

      Call it a hunch

      But I do not believe they are using him

      The state has been fairly silent through the encounter

      An act like this can be stipulated as being taken out of context

      Reply
    • leander22 says:
      March 3, 2013 at 12:30 pm

      Yes, excellent work, LLMPapa.

      Since Corey and BDLR are from Jacksonville, they must know Knox, who claims to be a former crime scene reconstruction expert for the Jacksonville Police Department.

      A little snippet from my Knox collection, more precisely from the Chapter: Prove it, the last chapter.

      A photograph of Corey hangs on the wall next to photos of her predecessors, but this picture of an olive-complected, Middle Eastern woman is remarkable different than the portraits of all the older white men who held the job before her. A devout Episcopalian, Corey doesn’t hide her faith, often wearing a cross around her neck.

      …

      During her time as an assistant state attorney, Corey earned a reputation as a tough prosecutor who was very friendly towards police. Corey knew many of the 1,600 police officers at the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office, and her ties with officers often drew her into disputes between prosecutors and disgruntled policemen upset that their cases were being dropped. Corey’s intervention on behalf of the police brought criticism from some of her colleagues who called Jacksonville’s Finest Corey’s “little babies”. Corey spent many hours teaching officers about criminal law at the local police academy, and at one time rumors spread that she was contemplating running for sheriff of Duval County, a move that would have been highly popular with the rank-and-file officers.

      What type of expert would like to spread rumors about the prosecutor? But then as you may imagine he follows the elites in the pro-Zimmerman camp to the dot, down to citing an article by Andrew McCarthy that contains this:

      “If I were a cynic”, McCarthy wrote, “I’d say that an ambitious special prosecutor–exploiting the rabble-rousing of the U.S. attorney general and the racial grievance industry–filed an exceedingly serious charge for which she lacks evidence, second degree murder, in order to bask in the mob’s adulation while pressuring Zimmerman to plead guilty to a lesser charge, manslaughter runs a high risk of losing if Zimmerman forces a trial. So I’m sure glad I’m not a cynic.”

      In the longer quote McCarthy claims to rely on 20 years experience and his quote is followed in Knox’es tale with the “irresponsible and unethical” quote by “the Dersh” he continues: “[Corey] was aware when she submitted an affidavit that it did not contain the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,”… “she deliberately withheld evidence that supported Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense.”

      Well yes, what should an upright American expect from a woman with Middle-Eastern complexion? I ask you?

      I’ll shut up again. Thanks LLMPapa, wonderful, both videos actually. 😉

      Reply
  29. Opercarla says:
    March 2, 2013 at 10:26 pm

    LLMPapa you are absolutely amazing! The comfort that you must provide to the Martin/Fulton families is priceless! You are a superior force in the Justice for Trayvon team! Bravo!

    Reply
  30. ay2z says:
    March 2, 2013 at 10:22 pm

    LLMPapa is multi-talented and a great asset as an advocate for Trayvon and his family.

    Reply
  31. Malisha says:
    March 2, 2013 at 10:16 pm

    Strange. Knox’s hand and arm movements look so much like Fogen’s own hand and arm movements when he’s using body language to urge Serino and Erwin to believe him. The repeated hands and arms going “roundy roundy roundy” to explain that he is saying something so credible, so truthful, so undeniable. The hands are making a gesture that looks like the manual version of someone nodding their head as in, “say yes, say you believe me, come along with my story, see it my way, see how credible I am, come come come come, listen to me, believe me, come come come.”

    Those tiger-paw swipes. Those shruggy yessy hand movements. Those priestly-giving-sacrament roundy roundy handy thingies. Yes yes yes believe belieeeeeeeeeeeeeeve. Make nice. Believe.

    Reply
    • Two sides to a story says:
      March 2, 2013 at 10:24 pm

      : ]

      Reply
    • Crane-Station says:
      March 2, 2013 at 10:34 pm

      Well yes, and speaking of his audience, it’s amazing Serino kept his job after that witness tampering, regarding the screams.

      Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        March 2, 2013 at 10:53 pm

        But maybe, just maybe Serino did the witness tampering to keep his job in the first place, just sayin’ . . .

        Reply
      • ay2z says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:10 pm

        I just assumed that he was using some tactic to get his killer to react one way or another, but then I may be naive, likely naive.

        Reply
      • Cercando Luce says:
        March 3, 2013 at 10:07 am

        After listening to Papantonio on the other post, 2sides sounds closer to the bull’s-eye.

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:21 pm

        What if Serino’s hesitation in filing a capias had more to do with possibly losing his job because Bill Lee had told him and all other officers concerned to clean the mess up and let Fogen off the hook?

        Reply
    • kimmi says:
      March 2, 2013 at 10:54 pm

      Those tiger-paw swipes. Those shruggy yessy hand movements. Those priestly-giving-sacrament roundy roundy handy thingies. Yes yes yes believe belieeeeeeeeeeeeeeve. Make nice. Believe.

      Fogen:
      “I had to get 45 feet south of the T somehow, so I swam”

      Reply
      • kimmi says:
        March 2, 2013 at 10:55 pm

        Ok, goofed up blockquote again…Sorry!

        Reply
      • ay2z says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:15 pm

        what is this blockquote thing,, let’s try and see

        Reply
      • kimmi says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:50 pm

        I got the blockquote, and the part I didnt want blockquoted too.
        So, I don’t know anymore!

        Reply
      • xy11xy says:
        March 3, 2013 at 2:57 pm

        the arrows with the word blockquote inside are called “tags”

        Think of the following tags as saying “blockquote start here” and “blockquote end here”.

        START: to start a blockquote you type the word blockquote inside arrows:

        END: to end blockquote you type the word blockquote inside arrows with a forward slash in front of the word:

        the text you want to blockquote is pasted between the tags.

        anything that falls between the start and end tags will be blockquoted.

        Reply
        • Frederick Leatherman says:
          March 3, 2013 at 5:06 pm

          The arrows must point away from the material quoted.

          Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          March 3, 2013 at 6:45 pm

          The actual names of those “arrows” are the greater than sign. so the tag will look like
          Your quoted text then

          Remove the spaces and “x’s” which I’ve added so that the tags would display and not be read as a blockquote and hidden.
          You could always just google “html code” and get a whole slew of instructions on html tags and how to use them. Enjoy

          Reply
    • LLMPapa says:
      March 2, 2013 at 11:13 pm

      LOL, too funny….I made this a few days ago and decided not to publish it till I saw this:

      Malisha says:
      March 2, 2013 at 10:16 pm

      Strange. Knox’s hand and arm movements look so much like Fogen’s own hand and arm movements

      Reply
      • You all have thoughtful comments says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:20 pm

        What a breakthrough you have provided with your video today, LLPapa!

        This video is also interesting.

        I just clutched my shirt, and then measured what amount I had clutched and it measured about 4″.

        Reply
      • Frederick Leatherman says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:24 pm

        HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        Reply
      • You all have thoughtful comments says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:28 pm

        Your laugh is contagious, Professor!

        Reply
      • You all have thoughtful comments says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:29 pm

        Nothing like having the expert and gz with the same hand positions!

        Reply
      • ay2z says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:31 pm

        I have a very serious and important question, what does the snickering dawg sound like??? 😉

        Reply
      • ay2z says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:37 pm

        found it!

        Reply
      • Crane-Station says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:43 pm

        This is for Mr. Expert at Positions:

        Reply
      • Rachael says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:02 am

        Oh I love that song Crane! My ex boss’ theme song lol

        Reply
      • Xena says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:07 am

        Just did a little experiment of my own and now have a question. Using Knox’s theory that Trayvon’s hoodie and sweatshirt were hanging down because Trayvon was leaning over, is it possible for the bullet projection to still be straight, front to back?

        Reply
      • ay2z says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:07 am

        Crane-Station,

        That poor dog, if it survives the trip, it’s poor foot pads would be raw from the asphalt in a short driving distance. Driver is a first clASS Hole!

        Reply
      • towerflower says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:56 am

        Xena: “is it possible for the bullet projection to still be straight, front to back?”

        Considering the close proximity of the barrel of the gun to where it was shot, I would say yes. The clothing would offer little to no resistance to the bullet leaving the barrel to cause it to change direction.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          March 3, 2013 at 1:03 am

          @towerflower

          Considering the close proximity of the barrel of the gun to where it was shot, I would say yes. The clothing would offer little to no resistance to the bullet leaving the barrel to cause it to change direction.

          With the person leaning over the shooter? Wouldn’t the gun have to be angled up?

          Reply
      • amsterdam1234 says:
        March 3, 2013 at 2:18 am

        Fantastic job LLMPapa.
        The prosecution should take a good look at this video and uses it to prepare their presentation to the jury.

        Reply
      • amsterdam1234 says:
        March 3, 2013 at 2:45 am

        @xena
        “With the person leaning over the shooter? Wouldn’t the gun have to be angled up?”

        Yes, but in that case the holes in the shirts would have been lower than the hole in the chest.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          March 3, 2013 at 4:35 am

          Yes, but in that case the holes in the shirts would have been lower than the hole in the chest.

          Thank you, amsterdam. So,I take it that since the holes in Trayvon’s shirts are higher than the bullet entry in his chest, it’s reasonable to conclude that he was not leaning over when shot.

          Reply
          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 3, 2013 at 5:19 am

            @Xana,

            Reasonable to assume the shirts were grabbed (which would scoop up some fabric) then shirts-in-fist moved aside quickly so GZ didn’t “shoot own hand” (per GZ statement).

            Grass on GZ boot-tip and bloodflow diagonally across GZ’s head indicate GZ leaning forward.

            But fiber evidence needs to be released, to clinch this.

          • Frederick Leatherman says:
            March 3, 2013 at 9:41 am

            A particular type of fabric not only stretches or sags differently compared to other types of fabric, it also varies compared to other weaves of the same fabric.

            One also must consider the condition of the fabric (wet or dry and new or old), how long it had been worn, and whether it had been stretched prior to the incident in question.

            In other words, there are many variables to consider when performing an analysis and it’s best to work with the actual item of clothing rather than a similar one.

            There is only so much Papa can do without the sweatshirts.

            When I considered this issue while reviewing the first evidence dump, I concluded that the amount of stretching, or gravity induced sag, would have been limited by the location of the holes relative to the seams (assuming there would be less stretching the closer to the seams). I also considered that the two items of clothing were different, yet the alignment of the bullet holes matched exactly. Plus, the two holes were displaced from the vertical.

            Consideration of all these factors led me to conclude that it was unlikely that gravity alone could account for the difference between the locations of the entry wound and the two perfectly aligned holes in the fabrics of the two items of clothing.

            I based my conclusion on that analytical process.

            So far Papa’s experiment has validated my theory.

            I await his next video with a discernible feeling of excitement reminiscent of the way I felt on Christmas mornings long ago before I descended like a bird of prey and ravished the carefully wrapped presents.

      • seallison says:
        March 3, 2013 at 5:17 am

        Don Messick used that “dirty snicker” as far back as 1949’s “Wags To Riches” for Tex Avery, at MGM. Later, he used it again on several Huckleberry Hound cartoons in the late ’50s, and eventually, as Muttley. – Remember Precious Pup.

        Reply
      • shannoninmiami says:
        March 3, 2013 at 10:42 am

        LMMPapa, hands are in exactly the same positions.
        so mr.expert ( whom does claim to have been used by Corey in the past ) must be of same mind as gz , to seem to wanna protect his left hand from being shot.
        It’s amazing you caught that! you and Malisha!

        Reply
      • ay2z says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:03 pm

        Frederick Leatherman says:
        March 3, 2013 at 9:41 am
        A particular type of fabric not only stretches or sags differently compared to other types of fabric, it also varies compared to other weaves of the same fabric.

        One also must consider the condition of the fabric (wet or dry and new or old), how long it had been worn, and whether it had been stretched prior to the incident in question.

        In other words, there are many variables to consider

        Notice in LLMPapa’s video, there’s a glimpse of the front neckline with hoodie up. Deoending how the hood fit, how tight to the neckline seams it was when worn, or how loose it was, would make a difference in how the fabric could gape. A hand grip full of fabric could help hold the victim’s head down via the hood. Remember how the fogen, same video of gun pointing and hand actions, described Trayvon’s head bending over?

        The hood could possibly be very restrictive to movement, if someone is holding you by the shirt and it’s not so loose as to fall or shake off in a struggle.

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:16 pm

        Oh my goodness – maybe Mr. Expert is the guy in the white t-shirt! :}

        Reply
      • groans says:
        March 3, 2013 at 1:20 pm

        Definitely worthy of publication!

        “Yep … watch me here: See, if you hold the victim like so, and then aim your gun at his heart, botta-bing-botta-bang. There ya have it.”

        😆

        Reply
      • xy11xy says:
        March 3, 2013 at 3:42 pm

        What about the weight of the can of soda and the candy?

        If we presume they were in the hoodie pouch when the shot was fired, how would their weight displace the fabric of the hoodie?

        Also, their weight would only displace the hoodie, not the t-shirt inside, right?

        How would the can of soda displace the hoodie if Tray was laying on his back? On his side? If he was on his belly on his way upright with someone on his back?

        And how would any soda can and candy displacement look added to tugging from George?

        Where did Tray carry his phone and at what point did it leave his pocket? Is the phone also part of the displacement?

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          March 3, 2013 at 7:38 pm

          The problem is not the shot, or the distance or the pulled clothing. The problem is that all three must be done at the same time that the shot is fired.

          With GZ on his back, he needs to get a shot that goes straight in front to back with no angle.

          HERE’S THE FORENSIC DEMO

          Okay, first item #1: If he’s on his back, the way that his right arm can move is restricted. All it can do is arc, up, down less than 180 degrees and side to side 30 to 40 degrees or so. The problem is, none of these positions can yield a straight in shot that has no angle to it.

          Now add item #2: To get a straight in shot, with no angle, Trayvon would have to have positioned his own chest, slightly to the right side of GZ, so that GZ could hold the gun on that spot with no angle. Okay, that causes another problem, namely, in this position, there’s not enough space between Trayvon’s chest and the gun, for the shot to be “intermediate range”, so the only available shot, considering this unlikely position occurred, is a full contact shot.

          And finally this brings us to item #3: GZ needs to pull Trayvon’s garments down and to the left, to displace the holes by the 4 to 5 inches displacement the garments exhibit. Obviously he can’t do this if his only straight shot with no angle is so close that it’s a contact shot. Because there’s no room to pull Trayvon’s garments 4 or more inches forward from his body, while at the same time maintaining the downward and leftward displacements.

          If they were to both be laying on the ground side by side, GZ’s left arm is restricted such that he cannot pull Trayvon’s garments to the left. He can only pull them forward, so this possible position is also out.

          The only way he gets the ability to satisfy all three necessities, is by being up off the ground. They can both be up, or GZ can be up, but those are the only possibilities that allow for the shot taken to be achieved. MOM will have to find a way to prevent these facts from being demonstrated to the jury or GZ is toast.
          |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

          Reply
          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 3, 2013 at 11:20 pm

            @Lonnie –

            Superbly reported, Lonnie.

            Great examples, on-target interpretation (unfortunate use of “on-target) and in layman’s language suitable for jury comprehension.

            Thanks!

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            March 4, 2013 at 11:00 am

            Oh and the SP’s email address, which I’m sure they monitor and which is publicly listed in the court papers is: Brionda@coj.net !
            So, if you see something that you feel is impressive, why not send them a copy? Not that I think they need any help, but hey, one can never know, can one?

        • Xena says:
          March 3, 2013 at 8:14 pm

          @xy11xy

          What about the weight of the can of soda and the candy?

          According to the 7-Eleven video, the clerk placed the iced tea in a bag. That bag was found at the crime scene, and an EMT found the iced tea in Trayvon’s hoodie pocket. No one seems to know how it got there. My guess is that if Trayvon wanted to place the iced tea in his hoodie pocket, (maybe while he was running), he would have done so with keeping the can inside the bag rather than taking it out.

          Thus, it might be that when GZ was frisking Trayvon, he felt the Skittles (Trayvon’s blood was found on the Skittles in his pocket), and when feeling the object in the bag, snatched the bag leaving the iced tea can behind in Trayvon’s pocket — because his molestation was being observed and he needed to stop and get up.

          Reply
          • xy11xy says:
            March 4, 2013 at 3:31 pm

            @Xena

            My guess is that if Trayvon wanted to place the iced tea in his hoodie pocket, (maybe while he was running), he would have done so with keeping the can inside the bag rather than taking it out.

            That is a VERY good point about Tray just shoving the whole bag into the hoodie pouch. I know he did it under duress, because that can would have been freezing against his belly.

          • xy11xy says:
            March 4, 2013 at 5:10 pm

            Can’t recall if I responded already…

            But do you know if there were fingerprints on the can and skittles?

          • Xena says:
            March 4, 2013 at 6:59 pm

            @xy11xy

            But do you know if there were fingerprints on the can and skittles?

            I don’t remember if the lab report mentioned fingerprints, but they did find Trayvon’s blood on the package of Skittles in his pocket.

          • blushedbrown says:
            March 4, 2013 at 7:25 pm

            @Xena

            Check mail please!!!!

            i

          • Xena says:
            March 4, 2013 at 7:41 pm

            @blushedbrown. Just did. 🙂

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            March 6, 2013 at 5:14 am

            in response to Xena:

            @xy11xy I don’t remember if the lab report mentioned fingerprints, but they did find Trayvon’s blood on the package of Skittles in his pocket.

            @Xena:

            Trayvon’s blood, only became available after the shot. Because the shot was almost certainly instantly incapacitating, Trayvon would be struggling to breath but could not. The only available path for his blood on the skittles package is by GZ handling the package after either touching the wound or having his hand covered with “blow back”. “Blow back”, which the SPD allowed GZ to wash off at the station?

            The important take away here is, that there is a portion of time where events happened that witnesses did not see. Meaning that not all that was done was observed.

            So, from the time of the gunshot to the time the first officer arrives, is the critical time that contains important activities that were not witnessed by anyone. An attempt to quantify these gaps needs to be mounted, to constrain theories about what could have been done, to arrange the evidence in the way that it was.

          • Xena says:
            March 6, 2013 at 2:15 pm

            @Lonnie Starr

            The only available path for his blood on the skittles package is by GZ handling the package after either touching the wound or having his hand covered with “blow back”. “Blow back”, which the SPD allowed GZ to wash off at the station?

            An EMT also reported using bottled water to wash blood off GZ’s hands. You probably already know that I believe GZ acquired his head boo-boo’s before that night, and placed his hand in Trayvon’s wound and smeared Trayvon’s blood on his head. That is why some of the blood trails are side-ways with 5 rivulets down — like 5 fingers running down.

            The important take away here is, that there is a portion of time where events happened that witnesses did not see. Meaning that not all that was done was observed.

            True. It was very dark and I don’t think any witness testified to standing in one place watching everything.

            So, from the time of the gunshot to the time the first officer arrives, is the critical time that contains important activities that were not witnessed by anyone. An attempt to quantify these gaps needs to be mounted, to constrain theories about what could have been done, to arrange the evidence in the way that it was.

            Indeed. GZ, neither Jon, addresses the time when Jon took the photos including the one of the back of GZ’s head while he’s on his cell phone.

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            March 7, 2013 at 3:04 pm

            Hmmm… So GZ could have been on Trayvon’s back, squeezing out blood he could catch in his hand then wipe on the back of his head. A half decent glob of blood, then pretend to put your hands on your head as a sign of surrender works well. Too bad they didn’t keep the wipes they used to clean GZ up. Because if it was shown that was Trayvon’s blood on GZ’s hands and head… he’d be finished even worse than he is now.

          • Xena says:
            March 7, 2013 at 3:48 pm

            @Lonnie Starr

            Hmmm… So GZ could have been on Trayvon’s back, squeezing out blood he could catch in his hand then wipe on the back of his head. A half decent glob of blood, then pretend to put your hands on your head as a sign of surrender works well.

            The facts about gravity and the blood rivulets apply, but IMO, those rivulets began because of using fingers to wipe the blood from cross-ways down. When looking at the rivulets before they reach his ears, they take a length comparable to using 5 fingers. Then he lowered his head as Jon was taking the photo causing the blood to run forward.

            Lonnie, you’re written previously about how long it takes blood to dry. The fact that the EMT’s report that the blood on GZ’s head was dried leads to the logical conclusion that his head boo-boo’s were not running blood. All it would take in the police station is to pick at the scalps to cause them to bleed. The scratches on GZ’s face had scalped. They were not fresh wounds.

            Too bad they didn’t keep the wipes they used to clean GZ up.

            We really don’t know that they didn’t. They kept the first aid kit which seems to be for no tangible purpose.

            Because if it was shown that was Trayvon’s blood on GZ’s hands and head… he’d be finished even worse than he is now.

            It might still come out at trial. Trayvon’s blood was found on the bag of Skittles in his pocket. The only explanation for that is that GZ had Trayvon’s blood on his hands when he went through Trayvon’s pockets.

          • Lonnie Starr says:
            March 8, 2013 at 10:49 am

            If the first aid kit contains any bloody anything they used on Trayvon, there might be some of GZ’s dna on it, where it’s not supposed to be, considering his narrative(s).

            But really… GZ has told so many, many, many lies, it’s remarkable he’s still resisting conviction. Of course, the SP is not going to reduce the charges, they have no reason to plea bargain. GZ can plead guilty as charged and hope that the judge may take some mercy on him. But, if he goes through with a trial, and exposes all he has done and lied about, it’s doubtful in the extreme that he’ll get any mercy at all.

          • nocamo33 says:
            March 6, 2013 at 7:25 pm

            Well said.

    • PiranhaMom says:
      March 3, 2013 at 3:49 am

      I don’t see the “roundy” hand as beseeching for belief.

      I am assuming the “roundy hand” is what I call the “curled spider.”

      I think it is Zimerman unconscously re-enacting his grasp of the shirts.

      One hand on gun, other hand grabbing Trayvon’s shirts to immobilize Trayvon. Literally, a “power grab.”

      I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s what started the falling-down wrangling. Zimmerman simulataneous grabs Trayvon by the shirts when he said “What are you doing ’round here!????”

      That’s why they fell to the ground.

      Reply
      • shannoninmiami says:
        March 3, 2013 at 10:53 am

        Yes I believe he is re-enacting grabbing his shirt!! so is mr, expert!!

        but I do think they did *travel* some distance, because some people heard the screams and yelling getting closer.. moving from one direction to another.

        I think he did grab at him when gz approached Trayvon, but I don’t think they fell down right then.
        Tray said “get off” i’d say that if someone grabbed my shirt too… it’s kinda a younger and maybe *Miami* type slang for *don’t touch me*…. idk…

        Reply
      • Two sides to a story says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:17 pm

        The next line is get off – so perhaps he even did a little body slam to go along with the grab . . .

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        March 3, 2013 at 8:48 pm

        I used the “roundy hand” to refer to Fogen’s hand gestures in GENERAL. Not just when he is showing Erwin and Serino how he shot Trayvon; how he makes roundy-hand whenever he wants people to believe an all-out lie. He did it with the “tiger-paw” gestures as he was saying Trayvon punched him and he stumbled; he did it as he described Trayvon beating him and smashing his head; he did it in the car before the re-enactment; he did it at the re-enactment; he does it often.

        I found that same sort of gesture looking very Knoxic too. He’s physically explaining to the listener: “Come into this area I describe with my hands, so you step into MY world and see things MY WAY. Come, come.”

        O’Mara does it in front of Judge Nelson, too.

        Reply
    • leander22 says:
      March 3, 2013 at 10:50 am

      Malisha, you got the whole book in those “tiger-paw swipes”.

      i just wrote a review but wasn’t prepared that wouldn’t have a chance to edit after. Seems I can over here at least when I respond to a review.

      Thanks for your review of Intermediate Range: The Forensic Evidence in the Killing of Trayvon Martin
      We’re currently processing your review and we will email you at ****@***.de as soon as this is complete.

      I hope I can still edit, once I get the mail. If not, does not matter much either. 😉

      Reply
    • groans says:
      March 3, 2013 at 1:08 pm

      Kinda reminds me of O’Mara’s argument for getting the addresses he wants. But he asked his question outright to the judge:

      “Do you trust me?”

      (I’d also guess that he has since added that strategy to the “Don’ts” list in his lessons learned file.)

      Reply
  32. ay2z says:
    March 2, 2013 at 10:14 pm

    May I suggest that this ex-cop-spert offer his services to the defense and he could put his book at the top of his CV list of credentials.

    Reply
  33. Frederick Leatherman says:
    March 2, 2013 at 10:12 pm

    Location, location, location . . .

    Reply
  34. ay2z says:
    March 2, 2013 at 10:09 pm

    The ‘Ex-cop-expert’ gets a failing grade in that he makes a general experiment that does not relate to the forensic facts of this killing, yet draws a conclusion from this inadequate and inaccurate ‘experiment’ about this case.

    His purpose is not to get to the truth of this shooting scenario, or he would have considered the details at hand to replicate his experiment. He did enough to get on TV and to get his book to market.

    This can’t be the definition of an expert in his field.

    Reply
    • Tzar says:
      March 2, 2013 at 10:20 pm

      I believe the word you are looking for is “shill”

      Reply
      • ay2z says:
        March 2, 2013 at 10:27 pm

        Thank you, Tzarm that word is new to me and yes, shill fits what I was thinking. I wondered how the connection to the case and to the media came about, and who put the original bug in this guy’s ear that would help prove someone’s point.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

        Reply
      • Frederick Leatherman says:
        March 2, 2013 at 10:29 pm

        We used another word: “Whore”

        Reply
      • Crane-Station says:
        March 2, 2013 at 10:31 pm

        Whore is too kind. In some circles they call it Big Pimpin.’

        Reply
      • ay2z says:
        March 2, 2013 at 10:32 pm

        I added a reply to say thanks but don’t know if I deleted or what, Yes, it fits what I was thinking about how his idea came about, who put the bug in his ear to get involved,, write a book and demo how Trayvon was, how did Pipitone put it, ‘looming’ over the fogen?

        Thanks, Tzar, ‘shill’ is a brand new word to me.

        Reply
      • ay2z says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:58 pm

        Thanks, I’ve just thought of a character in a great court room film, the ‘other’ Sidney Lumet classic, where the Boston Catholic church defends its doctor’s mistake by using a ‘shill’ to subvert the defense until she is found out and the pipeline cut to church’s high priced legal team.

        Reply
      • groans says:
        March 3, 2013 at 11:56 am

        By the power vested (or not) in me, I hereby present the “WORD OF THE DAY AWARD” to ….. (drum roll, please) ……..:

        ** TZAR !! **

        Congratulations, Tzar!
        And thank you for adding a new word to my vocabulary!

        Reply
      • Tzar says:
        March 3, 2013 at 1:13 pm

        lol at “whore” (so fitting but whores don’t hide their intent or relationships, shills do)

        for some reason I am not being alerted that there are responses to my posts, hence this tardy response

        Reply
      • Tzar says:
        March 3, 2013 at 1:15 pm

        thanks for the replies everyone
        I am gonna post something at the bottom of the thread someone reply to it so I can test the WP bar.
        thanks

        Reply
    • Xena says:
      March 2, 2013 at 10:33 pm

      On the other post, Blushedbrown left a link to Knox’s website. I paid it a visit and saw where he hasn’t written anything about the case since March 2012.

      Reply
      • groans says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:01 pm

        An argument might reasonably be made that he hasn’t READ anything about the case since then, either!

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          March 3, 2013 at 7:57 pm

          @groans

          An argument might reasonably be made that he hasn’t READ anything about the case since then, either!

          Based on my observations, I would say that is true for 99 percent of the Zidiots and those purported experts talking to the media.

          Funny thing — most news commentaries featured the “who started the fight. Who threw the first punch” discussions. Then came the Dooley decision which really applied the law. Now, we have Knox presenting that Trayvon was on top of GZ. Guess what? David James was on top of Trevor Dooley too.

          The jury applied the facts to the law:

          If not but for the fact that Dooley left his driveway/garage with a loaded gun and went over to David James, the two would not have come into physical contact resulting in Dooley killing James.

          If not but for the fact that GZ left his vehicle with a loaded gun, he and Trayvon would not have come into physical contact resulting in GZ killing Trayvon.

          Reply
    • cielo62 says:
      March 2, 2013 at 10:53 pm

      We need those crazy guys from myth busters ! THEY know how to make an experiment!

      Reply
    • leander22 says:
      March 3, 2013 at 8:00 am

      The books is quite interesting, especially concerning the new definition of “mis-information” I suggested above. It’s added to the Kindle lending library.

      It’s self-published by the way: Crime Science Books, A devision of Knox Associates, LLC

      If you click on the blue “crime scene books” space it’ll lead you to his firm. I’d suggest some of you have read it write a short review. I am not a customer of Amazon US. Here is what the only one that voted it down had to say. Interestingly:

      1.0 out of 5 stars Pointless speculation based on newspaper accounts instead of evidence, October 31, 2012
      By
      M. Ford (Orange, CA United States) – See all my reviews
      (REAL NAME)
      This review is from: Intermediate Range: The Forensic Evidence in the Killing of Trayvon Martin (Paperback)
      I think the author would be well served by looking at actual evidence, things like the crime scene photographs which show Trayvon did not have a can of tea, he had Arizona brand water melon drink and skittles, the two items that are mixed with Robitussin to make Lean or Drank. Any forensic analysis should begin with the most accurate evidence possible, not layers of speculation based on newspaper accounts, or partisan statements.

      Reply
      • rayvenwolf says:
        March 3, 2013 at 2:56 pm

        “I think the author would be well served by looking at actual evidence, things like the crime scene photographs which show Trayvon did not have a can of tea, he had Arizona brand water melon drink and skittles, the two items that are mixed with Robitussin to make Lean or Drank.”…..*falls over laughing* Are you kidding me? Gods almighty are they never going to let this go? And jeez they could at least get the recipe right.

        Reply
    • leander22 says:
      March 3, 2013 at 8:15 am

      The George Zimmerman case on Michael Knox’ blog

      It’s interesting that he is aware of the pulling away scenario, but clearly censored it in his book, published on Oct. 17, 2012:

      So What Happened to the Hoodie?
      Friday, May 18, 2012
      The autopsy report says there was an ‘intermediate range’ gunshot wound to the chest. It describes an area of stippling about two inches in diameter. Soot is present. Ok, so we have some information now about the range of fire. But wait. This is on Trayvon Martin’s skin. What about the hoodie? Shouldn’t the gunshot residue be on his clothes?
      Yes, it should—and it was. Among the documents released yesterday is a March 22 report from a firearms analyst with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. In her report, she indicates that both the light grey Nike sweatshirt and the dark grey hooded sweatshirt Martin was wearing have apparent bullets holes that “display residues and physical effects consistent with a contact shot.”

      So the muzzle was in contact with the clothing, but the medical examiner said that the shot was fired from ‘intermediate range’. How is the pistol touching the clothing while being at least four inches or more from the skin? Newly released video of Martin making his purchase at a nearby convenience store shortly before the shooting shows that the clothing is loose fitting. In order for there to be this much distance between the clothes and the skin, one of two things had to happen: either (1) the clothing was being pulled away from Martin’s body (presumably by George Zimmerman) or (2) Martin was on top of Zimmerman, chest downward, with his clothes hanging due to gravity.

      Is there a customer that did not like this part of the tale? How can we explain otherwise that this realization is missing from his book? But instead we hear a lot about how the media got it all wrong?

      Reply
      • type1juve says:
        March 3, 2013 at 11:02 am

        Knox is just another opportunist jumping on the bandwagon trying to make a quick buck off of a dead child… imho of course.

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 3, 2013 at 2:15 pm

        Knox is just another opportunist jumping on the bandwagon trying to make a quick buck

        type1juve, somebody that I respect highly thinks the same, I am not completely sure. He chatters quite a lot in his book but he leaves out the two possible options he had on his mind a couple of month earlier that are clear analytical thought related to the title of his book in foresics?

        He has a clear political agenda, the agenda of SPD with the exception of Serino and his boss Randy Smith. Ironically he degrades Corey’s close contact with police in Jacksonville. The book demands quite a bit of mental acrobatics. I can’t count how often he contradicted himself to remain faithful to his political agenda, or he ignored things he wrote earlier. In other words he switches his perspective constantly according to what is useful in his argument. And the above mentioned pointed out to me, what else he needed to leave out that did not quite fit his argument in a special context.

        While all that could be the result of too hasty work to feed the market, I have never seen somebody forgetting earlier “revelations” in this context. Not really the scenario were you can afford to discard earlier work and instead fill the space with dialog along the GZ narrative.

        Reply
        • Lonnie Starr says:
          March 3, 2013 at 5:34 pm

          It’s a simple equation: The Trayvonista’s won’t buy the book because we don’t need a “johnny come lately” to validate the work we’ve already done. Only the Z-ite’s need help and support, so they’re his only likely customers. He feels, after reading their side, that they’re too stupid to figure out when someone is pandering to them, as evidenced by them heaping some 300k on GZ.

          So. with that in mind, he wants to write something they will buy, but at the same time won’t damage his own reputation so badly that he won’t be able to make another buck, posing as an expert witness for pay. Because, anytime he takes the stand after this book is published, he knows he’ll have to answer for it on that same stand.

          He’s obviously either doing so poorly that he can’t afford to pass this up, or he’s merely a greedy opportunist. Either way, his book makes no sense, so why did he bother to put his name on it? The only reasonable answer is: Cash!

          Reply
      • gbrbsb says:
        March 4, 2013 at 1:30 am

        @Leander
        Just had a quick look/read Leander, and IMO Mr Knox is just another Osterman trying to hitch on to the case’s band wagon. I don’t trust it so if I wrote a review it would go something like:

        The cover graphics more resemble a cheap detective novel than a formal dissertation on the forensics, the dedication a gimmick, the casual “Sherlock” at the top of the first page a joke, and the quote attributed to “PLATO IN THE PHAEDRUS” underneath:

        “Things are not always what they seem; the
        first appearance deceives many; the
        intelligence of a few perceives what has been
        carefully hidden.”

        a monumental clanger showing that Mr Knox is definitely NOT one of the “FEW” referred to as he didn’t even manage to “detect” that which wasn’t hidden; the quote is NOT from Plato’s “Phaedrus” but by the Roman poet and fabulist, Phaedrus, living some 350 years later and the first major re-compiler/translator of Aesop´s fables (e.g. The fox and the Grapes)!

        I won’t go into his writings but from what I read, IMO, it was just an MO style attempt to make some dollars and put his oar in… cheap and nasty! Of course he just may have a couple of things of interest so if anyone does buy it they could maybe summarize anything of importance for the rest!

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 4, 2013 at 6:46 am

        the quote is NOT from Plato’s “Phaedrus” but by the Roman poet and fabulist, Phaedrus

        I was wondering about that too. But it’s too long ago I read it. Plato was always one of my favorites. Something felt odd, the quote is too commonplace. In my comment I mainly added the missing content page or the diverse chapter titles with the accompanying epigraphs. Content title always help to recall the argument. But at that point I paused and wondered, if I wouldn’t love to add a question mark behind Plato.

        Please try to add your review on Amazon.com. I am registered but obviously I buy over here in Germany. So maybe they will not allow me to publish anything there. Look at the reviews, they are very, very misleading. In any case I used the two stars, don’t like option.

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 4, 2013 at 6:51 am

        reminds me of Fogen’s supposed quote on his website, by the way. I don’t like people that add epigraphs or citation from whatever source, trying to look well-read. It’s quite common actually.

        Reply
      • gbrbsb says:
        March 4, 2013 at 3:13 pm

        @Leander22

        Exactly what spiked my doubts… too “commonplace”… I couldn’t have worded it better. Just as you, it was so many years ago I read the Greeks I had to look it up, and I learned something even, i.e. that many of the Aesop’s fables I grew up with were “recuperated” by Phaedrus. Indeed, knowing the source makes it all fit because the citation is so much more suited to the moral of a fable than to a Socratic dialogue! I will try to review it to put my spoke in, and you’re right. GZ had an “intellectual” quote on his first website “real George” website” too! Ugh!

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 5, 2013 at 8:46 am

        the Trayvonista’s won’t buy the book because we don’t need a “johnny come lately” to validate the work we’ve already done.

        You are very, very correct. While he seems, if I remember correctly, attack blogs or social networks (another commonplace), he basically rehashes what has already been written. Remember that even the story he made it with into media is nothing new.

        grbrsb, the fake GZ quote was supposedly by Edmund Burke, but it wasn’t. The same pattern surfaces in Knox’ use of the Plato quote. He looks for a specific content, and commits a huge blunder with his choice of the author. But both may well have chosen either, since they felt it sounded impressive to use either Burke or Platon (we say over here) in other words we use the Greek name and not the Latinized version.

        The “intelligence of a few” feels so un-Socratic, but I am sure he was very enamored with that part. 😉

        Reply
  35. Crane-Station says:
    March 2, 2013 at 10:06 pm

    Wow, that was amazing. Make absolutely no mistake about this at all, I know from my own legal case: the criminal justice system is rife with forensic fraud, invalid science, made-up BS, false testimony from ‘analysts’ and fake ‘experts’ just like this one. It is also impossible to know what their real credentials are, because they lie about their experience as well.

    Reply
    • groans says:
      March 3, 2013 at 12:29 am

      Exactly. We’re so accustomed to looking for overreaching on the prosecution side – which has historically been horrendous and devastating. But it can also arise when well-heeled or well-connected defendants pull the same sort of shenanigans, as we’ve seen on occasion, too.

      Reply
    • Dennis says:
      March 3, 2013 at 5:24 am

      Experts lie all the time. Just look at the Amanda Knox case in Italy. The corrupt prosecutor and the police told the entire world that the victim’s DNA was on a knife taken by police from Amanda’s boyfriend’s house.

      The defense knew the DNA tests were completely bogus and the judge allowed independent DNA tests from a Rome university. It turns out the DNA of the victim was actually starch.

      Starch? Have these people gone mad? The people that did these tests should be thrown in prison for the rest of their life.

      Reply
      • Crane-Station says:
        March 3, 2013 at 8:35 am

        I am not surprised. I hope the prosecution in this case has sense enough to hire some legit experts and not some fake-ass lying ex-cop like the one in the LLMPapa video. Stuart James (blood spatter) comes to mind.

        I am tired of corrupt prosecutors. I could go on for hours on this topic. What is equally sickening is a corrupt defense bar.

        Reply
  36. Jun says:
    March 2, 2013 at 10:01 pm

    Another issue this alleged “expert” makes a mistake in is in Fogenhats’ “stalking” story or “watch story” or “going to Target” story

    On the NEN call made by the defendant, he clearly gives his location as being near the clubhouse, and by the mailboxes, and also the location as to where the victim, Trayvon was

    Considering that, that is about 1km away from where Trayvon’s dead body was, and where the altercation took place (the struggle part of the altercation)

    Now if the defendant had no intent of going after the victim, how did he end up almost 1km of where he started and end up where the victim was?

    That would also make Trayvon getting home even a longer journey, especially if a perp was pursuing him in car and on foot

    Reply
    • onlyiamunitron says:
      March 2, 2013 at 10:16 pm

      Kilometers much be much shorter where you live.

      In Sanford, Florida, one thousand meters is in the rough ballpark of the distance from the clubhouse to the 7-Eleven

      From the clubhouse to the “T”, about 150 meters or so.

      unitron

      Reply
      • Jun says:
        March 2, 2013 at 10:35 pm

        We are both incorrect. It is about 1000 feet from the clubhouse to where the body was.

        That is not 150 meters

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:02 pm

        Never mind I remeasured

        Its actually about 500 feet from the clubhouse to the body

        running from the club house to the T would take about 1.5 minutes

        Trayvon according to the NEN call ran at about 2 minutes 11 seconds on the NEN phone call

        Fogenhats’ NEN call ends at 4minutes 13 seconds approx.

        When Fogenhats tells the dispatch to call him when they arrive, that is approximately when he passed the T and when he saw Trayvon

        Either way, 500 feet, he is going in the same direction as the victim, he is obvious bent on going after the victim, otherwise, he would not have ended up that far from his starting point towards the victim’s direction

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        March 2, 2013 at 11:05 pm

        It is about 580 feet from where Fogenhats parked his car to the T point

        Reply
        • onlyiamunitron says:
          March 3, 2013 at 12:54 am

          “It is about 580 feet from where Fogenhats parked his car to the T point”

          Sure you don’t mean the clubhouse to the “T”?

          unitron

          Reply
      • groans says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:07 am

        Unitron, you repeatedly target Jun for your negative commentary, and I’m tired of it.

        I’ve also noticed that you don’t tend to add anything substantive to the discussion on this blog. In contrast, Jun does, and expresses her (?) views in a low-key, consistent way. She doesn’t hurt a fly here – but you do, and seem to delight in doing so.

        You obviously like to argue for the sake of arguing but, as a result, you often miss the complexities of the topic at hand. You also tend to insert your own extraneous viewpoints, and expect or demand a change of topic to address them.

        I, for one, neither want nor value your input regarding the weight I place on any commentary offered here. I generally merely skim over your annoying “I’m more clever than you” entries, in the unlikely event that I might find something enlightening. But I never find anything enlightening.

        Your pattern of inappropriately hyper-critical entries is, frankly, only distracting and sickening. And to the extent you pick on individual members it’s repulsive – completely eliminating any potential value you might otherwise offer to the discussions here.

        Reply
        • onlyiamunitron says:
          March 3, 2013 at 1:47 am

          He/she based an argument on a distance figure that was wildly incorrect.

          There’s plenty of mis-information about this case out there already.

          I don’t mean “wrong” opinions, I mean actual mis-statements of fact mis-information.

          More is not needed.

          unitron

          Reply
        • cielo62 says:
          March 5, 2013 at 9:00 pm

          Groans- I have a theory about unit rob. He’s either West or maybe MOM himself. Like you point out, there is the constant condescension. He uses just enough evidence to play around with theories beneficial to the defense. At the same time, there is no empathy or pity for the true victim, Trayvon Martin. On the one year anniversary, all he could muster was linking the day to another unrelated mass tragedy. And, here’s the clincher for me: he is constantly paranoid about the “limitless power and resources of the state” to bring a case against po’ lil GZ. I admit I have no respect for unit ton. But all these little facts had me thinking; could there be a mole? And could that mole be West? 😉 (ps I just came down with a bad chest cold. Maybe all these thoughts are cold med delusions. But then again, maybe not!)

          Sent from my iPod

          Reply
          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 5, 2013 at 9:49 pm

            Knowing what I know about me (that I am neither West nor O’Mara, and have never been to Florida in my life, much less reside there, and do not have a law degree), I’m going to guess it’s the funky cold medina kicking in and wish you a full and speedy recovery.

            unitron

          • cielo62 says:
            March 8, 2013 at 6:23 pm

            LOL! Ok I admit. I got a deserved zing right there! “Funky cold medina” indeed!

            Sent from my iPod

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 8, 2013 at 9:25 pm

            Glad to see that you appear to be making a recovery.

            Just as the actual flu that’s going around this year seems to be a lot more muscular than usual, that thing that goes around at the same time that’s not quite the flu seems to be beating up on people more than usual as well.

            I know I certainly didn’t get any enjoyment out of my share of it over the past few weeks.

            unitron

      • shannoninmiami says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:37 am

        @unitron,
        i wanted to know why must you criticize and correct everyone?
        it’s just irritating, like a mosquito!

        @groans, I admire your style.

        Reply
      • ladystclaire says:
        March 3, 2013 at 1:42 am

        @groans, 2 Thumbs UP!

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        March 3, 2013 at 1:51 am

        Jun is a male name BTW in Chinese and Philipino, as well as Korean culture

        anyways, to come out of the parking lot at the clubhouse, the parking lost area, to the T point is 580 feet approximately

        Either way you do not travel that distance after someone without any specific intent

        Reply
        • onlyiamunitron says:
          March 3, 2013 at 1:56 am

          “Either way you do not travel that distance after someone without any specific intent”

          And the argument will be over whether it was, especially after he got out on foot, a boneheaded intent to track Martin visually so as to direct the police to him when they arrived, or whether it was something more sinister.

          There are more possibilities than one.

          unitron

          Reply
          • Xena says:
            March 3, 2013 at 2:11 am

            intent to track Martin visually so as to direct the police to him when they arrived, or whether it was something more sinister.

            There are more possibilities than one.

            Dispatcher: “Are you following him?”

            GZ: “Yeah.”

            Dispatcher: “Okay. We don’t need you to do that.”

            The dispatcher didn’t ask why, giving GZ any options. No matter GZ’s reason, it was against the policy of the police and also against the policy and rules of NW. GZ knew better. Had he not known he was wrong, there would have been no need for him to lie about it. Since he lied about it, it leaves good reason to believe that he got out of his vehicle and followed Trayvon on foot in bad faith.

            As GZ continued to talk to dispatch and changed his mind on where to meet the cops, and to have them call for his location, speaks volumes about GZ’s intentions. Seconds before GZ made those plans, Trayvon received a call on his cell phone.

      • Marilyn says:
        March 3, 2013 at 2:05 am

        Unitron is simply correcting misinformation. No personal attacks. These distances have been determined accurately and there’s no reason for this blog to perpetuate confusing misinformation.

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          March 3, 2013 at 2:14 am

          There’s a way to correct misinformation and even common errors without sounding condescending. IMO, saying “Kilometers much be much shorter where you live.” is condescending and a personal attack.

          Reply
          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 3, 2013 at 3:00 am

            Or it could be lighthearted humor and gentle teasing, depending upon what one is predisposed to “hear” when reading the remarks of another.

            unitron

          • Xena says:
            March 3, 2013 at 4:33 am

            @onlyiamunitron. Journalists write books introducing characters and as we get to know them, we apply a tone of voice and attitude in and to their words.

            Frankly, I don’t see any humor in saying to Jun, “Kilometers much be much shorter where you live.” Intent is also reflected in what follows after discontent has been expressed, and after several exchanges with Jun, you commented about misinformation, yada, yada, yada.

            I was going to stay out of your exchange with Jun until he was tag teamed. Now that I’ve had my say, I’m done with this matter.

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 3, 2013 at 4:39 am

            “I was going to stay out of your exchange with Jun until he was tag teamed.”

            Don’t know anything about that. I fly strictly solo.

            And Jun is one of the very few commenters who was already posting here before I started, so I think of us as old friends.

            unitron

          • cielo62 says:
            March 6, 2013 at 5:50 pm

            Xena- that is exactly it. As far as can be conveyed online, there are ways to answer respectfully that aren’t condescending. Unitron Doesn’t get it.

            Sent from my iPod

      • Jun says:
        March 3, 2013 at 2:08 am

        Once he caught up with the kid, a struggle ensued and the kid was shot dead while the kid was screaming for help

        How much more sinister is there?

        He was also seen by witnesses, molesting the dying kid’s body

        And besides that, he is blaming a kid, with no proof, of wrongdoing, while chasing the kid by car and on foot with a flashlight and a gun, a gun which he shot the kid with

        So people are supposed to be okay with complete strangers watching them and pursuing them when they are trying to run away? The guy is not authorized by law to go after the victim at all or even keep an eye on him.

        What other intent is there, when he goes after a person with a gun, a flashlight, a car, and calls him an asshole who always gets away, and as he is running after the victim, he calls the victim a fucking punk/coon, and when the defendant arrives where the victim is, he is seen and heard by w18 and w8 threatening the victim, and the victim is heard screaming and asking the victim to get off him?

        It is rhetorical, and obviously by the defendant’s actions, his intent was to get the victim, otherwise, what transpired would not have occurred

        Not really difficult to see

        Reply
        • Xena says:
          March 3, 2013 at 2:19 am

          @Jun

          He was also seen by witnesses, molesting the dying kid’s body

          And, after the physical altercation was over, GZ had absolutely no authority to touch Trayvon. According to one of his stories, (which I do not believe) while Trayvon was face down on the ground with GZ on his back, he was struggling. Well, if GZ had not been on Trayvon’s back, there would have been no need for him to struggle. GZ was free to walk away but he restrained Trayvon.

          Reply
      • Jun says:
        March 3, 2013 at 2:10 am

        Typo

        *asking the defendant to get off him*

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        March 3, 2013 at 2:31 am

        Either way, my main point is, you do not travel that much in the direction of someone running away from you, and end up 580 feet from where you started with no intent on getting the victim in this case

        That distance covered alone is reasonable for anyone to believe he had intentions of getting this kid

        I mistyped the distance, but remeasured and it is indeed 580 feet from the parking lot, where Fogenhats parked his car, to the T point

        Him parking that close to the sidewalk of the T was just a lie to try and make it seem like he was just being innocently travelling and that Trayvon did not go far from his vehicle

        It did fool some people though, his manipulation

        However, in stark contrast to his NEN call, it is a total contradiction

        To yell out “shit, he’s running” is obviously an excited utterance that he was upset that this kid he was stalking or watching, was running away from him

        Then to call the kid a fucking punk/coon while going after the kid on foot (which you hear right after he opens his car door and gets out) shows intent to get this kid and that he felt the kid was less than human (which is what a punk or a coon is)

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 3, 2013 at 7:15 am

        Unitron is simply correcting misinformation. No personal attacks. These distances have been determined accurately and there’s no reason for this blog to perpetuate confusing misinformation.

        Marilyn/Mona Lisa, my own weak attempts at humor.

        The term misinformation unfortunately is deeply connected to the theme of “evil media” not telling the right story or in other words challenge GZ’s self-serving narrative. More precisely if you use misinformation in this context, it suggests to me you have swallowed GZ’s tale hood line and sinker. You are in fact suggesting that there is an intention to mislead people. Not that someone simply got things wrong.

        There’s plenty of mis-information about this case out there already.

        I don’t mean “wrong” opinions, I mean actual mis-statements of fact mis-information.

        More is not needed.

        Now if we are talking about intend, than what is your and unitron’s intend? To sell GZ’s story as truth and nothing but the truth, and everyone that is skeptic about his ultimately self-serving tale as someone with the intend to misinform?

        Not someone that may in fact simply be human and err occasionally.

        What do you and unitron think about the high chance, please note not misinformation, that it is very, very unlikely that Trayvon entered RTL at all at the point GZ suggests?

        What exact evidence do you have that Jun did not simply get something wrong but had the intention to mis-inform?

        How do you know what exact routes Trayvon took, and why do you think GZ is reliable?

        Reply
        • onlyiamunitron says:
          March 3, 2013 at 10:10 pm

          “You are in fact suggesting that there is an intention to mislead people.”

          That’s not mis-information, that’s dis-information, which is an intent to deceive, as opposed to just giving something more credibility than it deserves.

          There no doubt has been some of that around and about the internet in connection to this case, mostly, I suspect, from trolls who want to get people all stirred up so they can sit back and laugh at them, or from people trying to generate increased hits and page views.

          But mostly it’s just stuff that somebody unknowingly got wrong.

          For instance, Zimmerman’s father’s job as a magistrate in Virginia.

          The actual title was something like Supreme Court Judge Magistrate or Supreme Court Magistrate Judge, but when one actually checks to see what that means, you get this, from Kristi Wright, with the Department of Legislative and Public Relations in Virginia:

          “Robert J. Zimmerman served as a full-time magistrate from 2000-2006. Please be advised that in Virginia magistrates are judicial officers, but they are not considered “judges” and do not possess trial jurisdiction. More detailed information on the role of the magistrate in Virginia is available on Virginia’s Judicial System Website.”

          So the people saying his old man was a state supreme court judge were not deliberately trying to deceive anyone, but, because they didn’t do their homework, they were spreading mis-information.

          And the next thing you know, everybody thinks he had the governor of Florida on speed dial, and that if he said “jump”, Rick Scott would already be in the air before asking “how high?”, when he was basically what used to be called a justice of the peace.

          So in order to have a discussion of the case that’s not just a waste of electrons, you have to begin with stuff that’s actually true.

          As Mark Twain or Josh Billings or somebody said, “It ain’t the ignorance in the world that causes so many of the problems, it’s the stuff people know that just ain’t so.”

          unitron

          Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 3, 2013 at 7:22 am

        I forgot to proofread, this guy makes me sick, I can’t help. And I am strictly very much into precise data, beyond simple assumptions. Why then am I not on his side in this context, I keep asking myself.

        I am absolutely with groan here.

        In any case back to proofreading: intend should be intention.

        The latest US definition of mis-information in the context of the GZ case:

        Mis-information is every challenge to GZ’s self-serving narrative

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        March 3, 2013 at 8:12 am

        I believe you are incorrect, I gave incorrect measurement, which I double checked and noticed the error

        That is not misinformation, which is to give false information to mislead

        I did not mislead anyone

        I was wrong on my first measurement of 1km

        I double checked and it is around 580 feet

        However my assessment of the narrative stands because, Fogenhats went more than 580 feet toward the direction of where the victim was going

        You do not venture that far toward the same direction as someone with no intent on getting that specific person, who was pursued and followed

        Even though my first measurement may be incorrect, so was yours Unitron, so why dont you stop being high siddity because you aint exactly spot on either

        and whether 580 feet or 1 km, the conclusion is still the same

        Another point is whether he was continuing his pursuit to simply stalk the boy or actually capture him himself, the point was he was still trying to get the kid, whether by the cops or himself

        So in conclusion, even though this was long and needless, he was trying to get a kid who was running away from him

        Reply
        • onlyiamunitron says:
          March 3, 2013 at 10:22 pm

          “That is not misinformation, which is to give false information to mislead

          I did not mislead anyone

          I was wrong on my first measurement of 1km”

          Misinformation misinforms, regardless of intent.

          If you were actually trying to deceive, that would be dis-information.

          I do not believe that you had any intent to deceive anyone.

          Nevertheless, if someone saw your figure of 1km and believed it, they would have been misled and misinformed.

          unitron

          Reply
      • groans says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:17 pm

        @Jun: Thank you for the lesson about your name. I apologize for my ignorance. But you seized on a teachable moment, so please consider me “taught”!

        I enjoy your input here, and I admire your even-keeled tone (not one of my gifts, as most have probably noticed by now).

        Reply
      • groans says:
        March 3, 2013 at 12:48 pm

        @ Unitron:

        Or it could be lighthearted humor and gentle teasing, depending upon what one …

        has learned from enduring countless similar

        … remarks of another.

        Reply
      • Malisha says:
        March 3, 2013 at 2:32 pm

        This is the old woman here. First, I think we should all admit that each and every one of us is wildly imperfect. Almost inconceivably so. Often, when faced with the various stories about the creation of the world and the humans in it, I find myself wondering: How could anyone have created so many imperfect individuals, damn! (Sure goes to show you how terrible mothers are.) But I’m willing to just go along with the idea that each of us is much worse than Fogen and Junior believe FOGEN is, and leave it at that. Jun is a Canadian musician; I love his comments. But he’s very imperfect; just ask Junior, he’ll tell you.

        As to the size of kilometers in various geographical locations. Where I live, kilometers are VERY VERY SMALL. That’s because I live entirely within my own head. (“Outside of a dog, there is no greater friend than a book; inside of a dog, it is too dark to read.”) Inside my head, where the kilometers are tiny, I have often run the marathon. I do not always win, of course; but I always finish looking great!

        Reply
        • onlyiamunitron says:
          March 3, 2013 at 10:57 pm

          “(“Outside of a dog, there is no greater friend than a book; inside of a dog, it is too dark to read.”) ”

          A good Groucho quote is never inappropriate.

          And of course, being Groucho, they’re all good.

          unitron

          Reply
      • Jun says:
        March 4, 2013 at 1:32 am

        https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1DVCF_enCA364CA364&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=5&gs_ri=psy-ab&pq=misinformation&cp=17&gs_id=j&xhr=t&q=misinformation+definition&es_nrs=true&pf=p&rlz=1C1DVCF_enCA364CA364&sclient=psy-ab&oq=misinformation+de&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=e68e18dc6aa46931&ion=1&biw=1280&bih=685

        Unit Ron

        Seriously, go read a dictionary

        misinformation is defined at that link

        Reply
        • onlyiamunitron says:
          March 4, 2013 at 1:57 am

          From that same search:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation

          “Not to be confused with disinformation.

          Misinformation is false or inaccurate information that is spread unintentionally. It is distinguished from disinformation by motive in that misinformation is simply erroneous, while disinformation, in contrast, is intended to mislead.[1]”

          Misinform does not always mean intentionally deceive, and, thanks to the KGB, we now have dis-inform, retronymed from dis-information, which always does mean intentionally deceive.

          unitron

          Reply
      • Jun says:
        March 4, 2013 at 1:34 am

        https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1DVCF_enCA364CA364&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&rlz=1C1DVCF_enCA364CA364&sclient=psy-ab&q=mislead&oq=mislead&gs_l=serp.3..0l4.47597.50265.2.50474.26.13.0.1.1.6.271.990.12j0j1.13.0.les%3B..0.0…1c.1.5.psy-ab.qd-2jYUZY9o&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=e68e18dc6aa46931&ion=1&biw=1280&bih=685

        Mislead definition

        Seriously, read a dictionary

        There is a difference between an incorrect measurement and misleading someone

        besides, where or not it is 580 feet or 1km, the conclusion is still the same, they are both long distances to go after someone

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 4, 2013 at 5:57 am

        That’s not mis-information, that’s dis-information, which is an intent to deceive, as opposed to just giving something more credibility than it deserves.

        The problem may be that your own usage moves beyond the definition, don’t you think? Just as the evil media theme suggests some type of interests in wrong information. Don’t you think?

        There’s plenty of mis-information about this case out there already.

        I don’t mean “wrong” opinions, I mean actual mis-statements of fact mis-information.

        Maybe you should not only define the term, but use it accordingly? You surely suggested a monetary interest by progressive media with the intend to mislead people under the general header misinformation.

        I never once bothered about father Zimmerman, in other words I was highly hesitant concerning the rumors about both Robert Zimmerman, sen, and Wolfinger influence paddling. I always took them with a grain of salt. I can give you links back in April, May. But strictly, I wouldn’t rule them out either completely. In any case, I don’t think that Wolfinger was on the crime scene that night.

        On the other hand I seriously doubt Robert Zimmerman has ever heard his son cry like that, and I am wondering why people think it is relevant that he claims it is his son’s voice. Misinformation – disinformation and Defense?

        I think one of the early rumors was absolutely correct, there was a complete chaos on the crime scene, with lots of chats between the later witnesses and police. When exactly did the on-duty supervisor arrive? There are also peculiarly odd matters, like Ayala pulling files and desperately trying to get the fingerprints of Trayvon, who had to be kept on the scene for hours for that reason. There is ample evidence that the police officers had made up their minds about the case in the early presence on the scene. Add to that the slight mystery surrounding CPR, or e.g. air-rescue that supposedly wasn’t available due to weather. But only slightly more than half an hour later we hear an airplane overhead. Is a helicopter more sensible to weather than an airplane? Why do you think O’Mara turns this airplane into a helicopter in his deposition transcripts. Or the court scribe? Misinformation, disinformation or wrong statements? Human error or intention to mislead or a multitude of other explanations? E.g. a bad memory?

        I am not suggesting there would have been any chance to save Trayvon’s life, but I seem to be suspicious concerning the claimed CPR activities of some of the officers on scene, based on my take of the data, which no doubt may be wrong.

        What do you know about the routines or guidelines of Florida law enforcement and attorneys. Do you think Wolfinger would have acted without the public outcry produced by Crump and colleague’s publicity campaign? Since quite obviously the “evil media theme” which you mirror with your endearment with the word misinformation is closely connected to the theme that GZ shouldn’t have been prosecuted to start with. Is that your position or are you only trying very, very hard to be fair? Jun, does not feel that is the case. There are many ways to correct someone. Besides, do you think you have the capacities to correct every wrong statement here including mine? Are you a hybrid between super-brain and clairvoyant?

        If you can point out to me an event in Florida where the police thought someone, who shot someone else, should not be prosecuted based on the SYG law with the public showing not the least bit of interest, but which resulted in later indictment nevertheless, I’ll change my mind concerning your apparent pet obsession with misinformation and the media.

        I don’t have time to make this shorter, and if I proofread for that reason, I may add mistakes due to the fact, I do not have much time today.

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 4, 2013 at 6:21 am

        Malisha, I only saw your contribution after I had written my too long take on matters, but I see I should have save my breath, since you did manage to write pretty much the same only much shorter. Take care. Again, really urgent work ahead, my dreams reminded me of it with a worst case scenario 😉

        Reply
      • Jun says:
        March 5, 2013 at 2:22 am

        There are various definitions where the word misinformation is lined up with an intention to deceive

        The word misleading is also associated with intent deception

        If you had bothered to actually look at the numerous definitions, you would see that there is an association with the word misinformation with intent of deception

        I never misled anyone, what I posted stands

        Please stop trolling on my posts

        If you want to claim I wrote an inaccurate calculation, that will suffice, but to write something as if there was some part of me leading to misconceptions, then you are totally off base

        The fact remains, they started at the clubhouse, and the defendant travelled a long distance toward the victim, as the victim was trying to run away from the defendant

        My point was they traveled from the clubhouse to the struggle around the T

        Please stop signing off all your posts like a douche and have a chat like a normal person

        I make typos here and there, but do not associate me with that word

        I find it offensive

        Reply
        • onlyiamunitron says:
          March 5, 2013 at 2:32 pm

          When you said 1km, if someone read that and believed it, they would have been misled, whether it was an honest mistake on your part (which is what I fully believe) or a deliberate lie made with the intention to deceive.

          So, regardless of your motive, if it’s something not accurate and you say it or write it, it is misinformation and you have misinformed.

          I have always only been “unitron” on the internet, rather than hiding behind multiple screen names, but there are a few places, WordPress among them, where somebody else claimed that username first (although I’ve never seen any of them actually use it), so I take what I can get and append my “real” screen name where necessary so that I’m not hiding that the unitron here is the same person as the unitron at theregister.co.uk, slashdot.org, talkleft.com and forums.talkleft.com, huffingtonpost.com, tivocommunity.com, dealdatabase.com, mfslive.org, radiodiscussions.com, reviews on amazon and newegg, and no doubt several others I can’t remember at the moment, and I’m not hiding who I was in previous years.

          There are people right now posting under more than one screen name. It gets very confusing.

          Whereas, when you see one of my posts, you know damned well that it’s me and no one else, and that I’m not trying to hide who I am on another site or who I was on the same site a year or two or ten previous.

          You were here (before I was even) back last year when this was a good place to discuss this case, when intelligent and informative conversations were had about the case, before last fall when the “I can hate on the defendant better than you can” started showing up and degrading the signal to noise ratio.

          Don’t you ever miss that?

          unitron

          Reply
          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 5, 2013 at 5:13 pm

            @Unitron.

            Good Lord, man, you post to all those sites????

            How many hours a day goes into this?

            365 days a year?

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 5, 2013 at 5:22 pm

            “Good Lord, man, you post to all those sites????”

            Not all of them everyday.

            Some not nearly as much as I used to, and some not all that much ever, but always under the same screen name as everywhere else.

            Mostly these days it’s helping people with problems with their TiVos.

            (or problems telling documented fact from unsubstantiated rumor in a certain shooting case : – )

            unitron

          • PiranhaMom says:
            March 5, 2013 at 5:37 pm

            @Unitron,

            Reassuring response. My maternal instinct was stirring: “Get Unitron a dog. He needs to get out of the house … ”

            I don’t have a TiVo so I won’t add another burden to your day.

            Personal observation: I find Jun a jovial kind of guy. Too bad there wasn’t an “oops!” response to your reminder that the distance was off. An honest mistake by a really good contributor. I make them all the time.

            As a Canadian, Jun has to convert our footage to metric. Just another burden in international communication, but one we have to cope with as long as the US resists converting to metric.

            (Note: we don’t have any problem using metric for (a) motion picture film, and (b) ammunition — does this say something about US culture?)

            Lots of energy frittered away by all on this one tiny and understandable error.

            Folks gotta get less starchy around here.

            “Moi, aussi,” as Miss Piggy would say …

          • onlyiamunitron says:
            March 5, 2013 at 6:02 pm

            I guess I’m going to have to learn how WordPress does smileys, since that’s not strictly something one can do with HTML code.

            unitron

      • leander22 says:
        March 7, 2013 at 8:06 am

        he is constantly paranoid about the “limitless power and resources of the state” to bring a case against po’ lil GZ.

        cielo, I agree he often feels close to the defense position. But I somehow doubt that West and/or O’Mara have time to read the comments here. I am not saying they couldn’t surface somewhere with whatever handles. But strictly I think they have much more work at their hands. Concerning their diverse helpers, I think even they, at least that is what the hearing in February suggested to me, are assigned specific tasks which may well prevent them from digging through comment sections.

        Concerning paranoia and for that matter trolls, I made a little self-awareness test in the field in the US post 911 paranoia universe. In a nutshell it seems to help to make you more important than you are, if you constantly feel observed. Now strictly event he governments resources are limited, even more now than then. And personally I feel more threatened by the self-appointed self-righteous little helpers on the ground of the type of Zimmerman, who believe to have some exquisite powers to differentiate good from evil.

        Strictly whoever he is or where he feels belonging, he seems rather transparent through the use of his handle. I am a bit hesitant to declare people that I do not agree with trolls. Concerning hidden interests, yes there may in fact be some, on the other hand there are millions of people out there that may in fact occasionally find an argument convincing, we don’t consider convincing at all.In this context, I completely disagreed with him. For whatever reason it felt to me from the start that while Crump is not opposing party in the defense/prosecution frame, how can you argue he triggered the arrest of Zimmerman and not consider him at least some type of analog to opposing party for defense? That was my feeling even before I read Bruce Blackwell’s brilliant motion.

        Bottomline, I would like to research his statements on the case from very early on, and decide after. Problem is, is he that important, and should I waste my time on him? Which ironically I already did to a certain extend. 😉 The “limitless” power of the state has the same “limits”: manpower, hours per day, resources.

        Reply
      • leander22 says:
        March 7, 2013 at 8:30 am

        Here he responds to an article by Whonoze in August, 2012.

        I have to admit that I was a bit puzzled by some work done on the case, mind you not all. Some things discovered by others I found highly interesting and important.

        There is a chapter on the Kel-Tec in Knox’es book. He writes:

        The powerful little pistol has no exposed hammer. It operates in double action only, which means that one need only squeeze the trigger to fire it. There’s no safety to disengage, just point the pistol and pull the trigger.

        As the convict-Zimmerman-now hype swelled, all sorts of speculation about this pistol-packing vigilante was plastered on the Internet. One blogger commented the he could “clearly hear” Zimmerman cock his pistol before stepping out of his truck. But the PF-9 can’t be cocked.

        Now in spite of the fact that I am hesitant about expert Knox, I find this valuable information. Since in the early days of the case, I was completely at a loss to hear everything that people claimed to hear. The only difference between OnlyIamunitron and me in this context may well be that I expect these wild speculations in every story where solid information is missing. I once studied “rumor” for exactly that reason. In other words since I was puzzled by the enormous amount of fantasy productions in certain contexts.

        I wasn’t aware of Treeslaw/Whonoze having his own blog till recently, had I known he had one, I would have followed it too at the time too. You’ll see he is the only person responding to his article. Had Whonoze written comments here at the time, would he have been attacked as a troll?

        Reply
    • Dennis says:
      March 3, 2013 at 5:16 am

      The largest hole in Fogen’s story is how he ended up 40+ feet from where the supposed head bashing ceremony took place. That alone proves his story is false and that he made up that scenario to justify deadly force. If he really shot Trayvon after having his head bashed in, Trayvon’s body would have been right near the sidewalk.

      Just like Frederick said, the only reason for Fogen to lie and cover-up his actions is because the truth would cause him to be convicted of 2nd degree murder. Lying equals consciousness of guilt. If you believe in your heart that you did the right thing and killed the person in self-defense, there is no reason to lie.

      Jodi Arias and Casey Anthony lie about everything regarding their murder trials. If Arias or Fogen gets acquitted like Anthony did, our entire justice system has collapsed.

      Reply
  37. Leroy Eugene Hudson says:
    March 2, 2013 at 10:00 pm

    Intelligent. You’re doing great work. I wonder if you take requests?

    Reply
  38. Xena says:
    March 2, 2013 at 9:59 pm

    Get him, LLMPapa. Gethimgethimgethim. Get Knox.

    Reply
  39. Frederick Leatherman says:
    March 2, 2013 at 9:50 pm

    Gripping . . .

    Reply
    • ay2z says:
      March 2, 2013 at 9:52 pm

      indeed… gripping…

      Reply
    • groans says:
      March 2, 2013 at 11:27 pm

      Really excellent contribution by LLMPapa.

      I, too, was deeply troubled by the unbelievably simple “tests” the so-called expert performed, and the “conclusions” he proclaimed as a result of them. And if that’s any foreshadowing of what to expect at trial, I would remain deeply troubled by whatever verdict results.

      But I can’t help but believe (i.e., hope) that we’ll see much better than that at trial … even in the Gunshine State.

      Reply
    • whonoze says:
      March 2, 2013 at 11:46 pm

      No pun intended I assume, since the obvious conclusion is that GZ had a grip on Trayvon’s clothing, pulling it away and down…

      Reply
      • Dennis says:
        March 3, 2013 at 5:08 am

        That is what I believed from the beginning. Fogen was holding onto Trayvon’s clothes with one hand while he toted his gun in the other.

        Reply
  40. ay2z says:
    March 2, 2013 at 9:45 pm

    Noticed and watched earlier today. Thanks, LLMPapa! Very nice illustration in 3D, looking forward to the next chapter.

    Reply

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