Shellie Zimmerman Has No Defense to the Perjury Charge

Wednesday, February 20, 2013

Kelly Simms, the attorney who represents Shellie Zimmerman, predicted yesterday that a jury will find her not guilty of perjury. He said,

If you study carefully the questions she was asked, he said, she answered truthfully.

“It’s all about specificity,” he said.

I agree that the issue is all about specificity, but I do not agree with his prediction.

Keeping in mind that a witness is only required to truthfully answer the question asked and that any ambiguities or uncertainties in the question must be resolved in favor of the witness answering it, let us take a look at the exchange.

Here is Mark O’Mara questioning Shellie Zimmerman after she was duly sworn:

O’MARA: Another condition or another concern the court would have is a bond amount. I would ask you then realizing that one option is for the court to grant a monetary bond, if you could advise the court of your financial circumstances so I’ll ask you a couple of questions.

Are you working presently?

S. ZIMMERMAN: No, I’m not.

O’MARA: And how do you — what do you do with your time?

S. ZIMMERMAN: I am a nursing student.

O’MARA: OK. Is that a full-time endeavor presently? S. ZIMMERMAN: Yes, it is.

O’MARA: OK. How long have you been doing that?

S. ZIMMERMAN: Well, I am four weeks away from my graduation.

O’MARA: OK. So you’re not earning any income presently?

S. ZIMMERMAN: Correct.

O’MARA: Do you own the home that you live or lived in?

S. ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

O’MARA: Other major assets that you have which you can liquidate reasonably to assist in coming up with money for a bond?

S. ZIMMERMAN: None that I know of.

O’MARA: I discussed with you the pending motion to have your husband, George, declared indigent for cost, have I not?

S. ZIMMERMAN: Yes, you have.

O’MARA: Are you of any financial means where you could assist in those costs?

S. ZIMMERMAN: Not that I’m aware of.

Shellie Zimmerman transferred money from Paypal into the defendant’s account and then from his account into her account where she parked it for awhile until he bonded out and moved it back into his account. I believe she had $67 K in her account when she answered O’Mara’s question.

She cannot credibly deny that she knew she had $67 K in her account because she deposited it into her account.

I presume Sims will argue that she regarded that money to be the defendant’s property even though it was in her account. Therefore, she believed that she did not have any assets when she answered the question.

Good luck with that, Mr. Simms.

Shellie is not a vegetable. Absent some compelling testimony from a clinical psychologist supported by test results that her intellectual functioning is so impaired that she did not understand the questions and she compensated by pretending that she did in order to avoid humiliating herself by admitting that she did not know what he meant, I do not believe that a jury would acquit her.

Indeed, O’Mara asked straightforward questions and she did not exhibit any sign of confusion or ask him to clarify any question. She also stated that she was a full-time student in a nursing program and only four weeks away from graduating. No sign of impaired intellectual functioning or lack of comprehension is evident in her responses.

Moreover, she communicated with her husband in code and carried out a deceptive scheme involving multiple transfers of money over a short period of time in amounts less than $10,000. In other words, her conduct exhibits that she knows that she is playing a shell game with his money to help him conceal $67 K from creditors and the court by concealing it in her account.

I do not think a jury will be sympathetic, given her unapologetic and willing participation in that scheme.

Simms said, she is “getting stronger every day.” I hope that means she is becoming more assertive and her husband’s control is weakening. I believe it would be in her best interests to cut and run from him. She needs to get as far away as possible and resolve her perjury case without going to trial. He used her and she owes him nothing. She will be a helluva lot more sympathetic to prosecutors and the judge, if she acknowledges that he used her, expresses a willingness to cooperate and tell all, and asks for help.

I think that’s the only way she can avoid going to prison.

345 Responses to Shellie Zimmerman Has No Defense to the Perjury Charge

  1. Animaljunkie says:

    I’ve been wondering, since her indictment for perjury, HOW long she was going to stay married to the defendant, bearing in mind he selfishly threw her under the bus.

    So far, anyone coming into close contact with the defendant, for ANY length of time, is tainted by him e.g. O’Mara & Co., wife & family, Osterman, Taaffe (that’s questionable, but he’s in the limelight now), Oliver etc.

    I personally wouldn’t want to touch him with a barge pole.

    • racerrodig says:

      Well, she did say he was a “…role model..” when he was in jail on one of the recorded calls. I’m thinking she’s thinking it’s more like
      “Mole Rotting” about now.

      I wonder if she turned down any marriage proposals before she met Fogen……oh…..what do they say about “hindsight..”

      • Animaljunkie says:

        She’s probably the only woman the misogynist has been able to boss around, apart from his molested cousin, but he obviously couldn’t marry her!

        I’d be very interested to know that too, but doubt we ever will 🙂

        • racerrodig says:

          When those two clowns were carrying on, laughing and joking I was pretty incensed, when she uttered the words “..role model..’ I nearly power hurled.

  2. xy11xy says:

    Their relationship is effectively over. How can a woman move forward with a man who orchestrated circumstances that got her charged with a crime – a man who did it to save his own bacon!

    The scheme didn’t work, and it got her into trouble.

    The time she spends now with George…it’s dead time. The point has long passed where her Mother gives her a good talking-to. Maybe that has happened but Shelly won’t listen? Or maybe no one loves her enough to give her good advice?

    If she’s convicted, she’ll never be a nurse.

    She should cut a deal.

    But, they are crook-ish people. I bet she’s thinking she can do better: write a book, do interviews for money…. This is the lazy man’s way to fame and fortune.

    Sometimes the best pathway is the straight one.

    • racerrodig says:

      “Sometimes the best pathway is the straight one.”

      True and dead time is right on but They’ll never get it…..never.

  3. blushedbrown says:

    audio is on now

  4. kindheart101 says:

    I’m watching the Arias Trial. She spent 7 full days testifying, and answering every single question her attorney asked her. She remembered dates, times, what kind of coffee she ordered, etc., since 2006.

    Now the prosecution is questioning her………..Guess what? She doesn’t remember. What did Travis say? I don’t remember. When did Travis break your finger? ummmmmmm around this date. Are you sure? Yes. Well, funny, this picture, after that date shows your finger was just fine. I don’t remember……….

    Did Arias and Fogen drink from the same water source? Could Arias and Fogen be from the same gene pool?

    I don’t remember………………………….

    • racerrodig says:

      “Could you repeat the question please ….?”

      • kindheart101 says:

        Uh HUH! And have you noticed. She has never worn glasses, ever! But now, she has this little girl look, with glasses to make her appear smart. When she’s asked to read something, she has to take them off! LOL

        • racerrodig says:

          You noticed that….Like what “Little Boo Peep”
          “….Hmmmmmm how can I give that innocent almost a virgin like appearance……I know !! glasses…..yeah, that’s the ticket”

          • kindheart101 says:

            I keep watching his family in the courtroom. It’s heartbreaking.

          • racerrodig says:

            I have TV in my shop instead of a radio. I only watched parts of this but it is sickening. Having been a victim of a crime and you know this for a fact, the urge to rip someone’s head off is sometimes overwhelming. My attitude, and honesty, is why I landed that expert witness gig with a few lawyers. As a group, we’re unbeaten and plan to stay that way. As the expression goes…..”Ve hafe vays…”

          • kindheart101 says:


          • racerrodig says:

            Are you laughing because I have a TV in the shop or maybe because I’d like to rip one of their heads off for committing such heinous crimes and lying so badly about it ??

          • kindheart101 says:

            The “Ve hafe Vays” LOL

          • racerrodig says:

            “Ve hafe Vays” to make you testify my FogenPhoole friend…ve hafe vays……(heavy German accent) A hahahahahahaha !!

          • kindheart101 says:

            My Grandmother came over from Czechoslovakia as a teen, in the early 1900’s. She was an only child, and her parents, (which no one in the family ever met) sold everything they owned, including their land, to send her to the US on a small, filthy, cargo ship. She never talked about the first few years she was here, but married shortly afterwards, and had 11 children, one of which was my Mother. (She had all of them at home!)

            My Grandmother was one of my Very Best Friends. She passed at the age of 94, in 1996. I still miss her to this day.

            You reminded me of her with your “ve hafe vays”

            Thank you Racer.

          • racerrodig says:

            My paternal great grandfather came from Germany in the late 1800’s and went through some hard times also. I never met him by my grandfather, who I was very close to, would do that old school German shtick all the time. He spoke fluent German and he looked exactly like John Banner, Sgt. Schultz, in “Hogans Hero’s” and played up to it with a great sense of humor.

          • kindheart101 says:

            My Grandmother had a wonderful sense of humor also. I would laugh and laugh, because she talked very fast, and would say Vhen or Ve , LOL when she was telling a story or excited. Then, she would get very upset and correct herself, which made me laugh even harder.

          • racerrodig says:

            I love that old school stuff.

          • kindheart101 says:


          • Ur talkin about my ideal woman…..a Librarian / Porn Star…..Do you happen to know if she owns a fishing boat?

          • racerrodig says:

            Funny, my dad always said to marry a rich nymphomaniac that owns a bar and a fishing boat….

          • Race….I AM NOT YOUR FATHER…….. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            So, what you’re saying is we’re still trying to figure out who the real father is ?? Or should I change my name to Luke ?

          • racerrodig says:

            None here either but the guy behind West was fanning his face for quite some time and I swear he said……”what a bag of hot air”

          • jm says:


            Wonder if GZ is watching his attorneys shot down?

            To quote Lonnie – “tick-tock”.

          • racerrodig says:

            I didn’t have any sound so I don’t know the outcome. I’ll find it in the news in a few.

            But that guy early on behind West was a fannin’ away and I swear he mouthed “…what a bag of hot air”

          • jm says:

            I am quite sure GZ’s bowels are in an uproar right about now. The guy fanning himself with a bunch of papers was Crump’s attorney.

          • racerrodig says:

            Blackwater I believe his name is….anyway, then he had a great reason to say “…what a bag of hot air” and there is O’ Mara with needing the family ate the table, gotta have all this security, it’s the Trail for all the Ages yada, yada, yada………..Denied.

    • jm says:

      “Did Arias and Fogen drink from the same water source? Could Arias and Fogen be from the same gene pool?”

      They both have the same narcissistic personality disorder with delusions of grandeur and can lie without thinking twice and when their words are proven false, they make up another lie to replace it.

      • kindheart101 says:

        Spot on JM! And they don’t even blink! Evil, just pure evil.

      • racerrodig says:

        “Did Arias and Fogen drink from the same water source? Could Arias and Fogen be from the same gene pool?”

        Scary thought……but I’d bet we all have had experience with someone just like them, not a murderer, but that family member that lies about everyone, that co-worker….they are out there and man……….are they out there!!!

        • jm says:

          “but I’d bet we all have had experience with someone just like them, not a murderer, but that family member that lies about everyone, that co-worker….they are out there and man…”

          I know someone like Jodi Arias. If you ask them a direct question they never answer it directly and try to redirect the question with lots of unnecessary details. You end up going in circles. Don’t understand what drives non-criminal liars. Ego?

          • racerrodig says:

            “Ego” That and “one upsmanship” I’ve been racing since 74 and I have every time slip. record, article and such from day 1. I can prove anything at a “bench racing session” I’m into reality. I cannot tell you how many times my regulars and I will start a session about our past and we all were there and the “new guy” starts with the lies. They all have something in common with Fogen….they are losers !! They fail at everything ! Then have the temerity to think we believe them. I won this…I won there. Back in May of 85 I won a race at Cecil County Race way. I was the manager of a speed shops warehouse / main retail store and we had about 30 smaller satellite stores. One of them was managed by one of those kind of guys. He couldn’t sell a heater to a freezing rich man but he called that morning for some advice and I casually asked if he went racing that weekend. He very brazenly said “…I won Pro ET at Cecil yesterday” Soooo I said “Gee ……I was in the final at Cecil last night at about 1 AM and that sure wasn’t you I beat” “Click”

            The ultimate lie…He avoided me at all costs after that one, but that was normal for him. The point is…they think we are stupid and won’t challenge them. How on Gods Green Earth do you try to pull these lies off as the truth.

            I was on my back and …..
            Gun. what gun….oh yeah, almost forgot I had a deadly weapon
            “..felt my head was about to explode..”
            “…the officer ASKED me to get him an address”
            “…I was on my way to Target” stone broke (gonna rob a Target?)
            I didn’t lie about any money….money? anybody see any money around here ??

            Hundreds of bold faced lies

          • kindheart101 says:


            I knew someone like Arias also! I had a very large restaurant, years ago. I had about 15 – 16 servers on the payroll. (Mostly college students) I had this one older young lady ( 27 – 28 ) that came in looking for a job. She told me she had 2 small children, had never worked, was going through a divorce, and needed a job, badly.

            Reallllllllllll Long story short……………she worked for me a few months, and I wasn’t real impressed. Something just seemed wrong. She said her parents watched the kids when she worked, and she was always asking for more shifts. She told me she needed money for food, rent, etc. Well, it broke my heart. I gave her more shifts, gave her free meals so she had more money to buy food for her children.

            Then, I started missing things! My Bar Inventory count would be short, sometimes by several bottles! Several of my long time, great servers came to me, saying they were missing money. I had asked her if her family, parents were able to help her out any, with her bills, etc? I was told, NO, they could barely make ends meet themselves.

            Well shoot! I felt horrible. UNTIL! LOL

            I had a Chamber meeting for several local restaurant owners before I opened for lunch. Almost immediately, a fellow friend, and owner, grabbed me by the arm, and pulled me aside. He said: “What the Hell is HE doing here!” I said: “WHO?” (Looking around) He pointed at Beverly……LMAO……..and said……HIM! I almost fell over! We went into my office and he told me he had worked for another restaurant, been caught stealing money, tips and alcohol! I said……..But But But……She……….He………..Oh Chit!!!!!!!!!

            After I fired HIM……….I did a little checking. His father was an Executive for a local car firm, and HIS mother owned her own boutique! I shuttered at the thought of all of the law suits that could have brought against me because HE always used the women’s bathroom………….ouch! And, from the day he was gone, the money, tips and alcohol counts were perfect.

            Oh Yeah!!!!!!!!!!! They are good!!!!

          • racerrodig says:

            No… fired her……the other guy fired him…no wait…’re right, they are good and man they’re out there !! Had more than my share of those. I was the service manager for a large cab co for awhile and at the service station we had this real old 4 drawer cash register. Every drawer had a key for security. We all left our key in the machine and there was never a shortage. They hired a mechanic and after about a month, everyone’s drawer was short, the oil count was off, wiper blades, you name it. Long story, we set him up, he took the bait at least 20 times and we canned him. He denied it up to well, even after he saw the video !!

          • kindheart101 says:

            Hell Racer, HE was a better looking female than some of the young girls! And the lies???????? Wow! I actually called a friend of mine that was an attorney and asked if I had grounds to fire him because………

            1. He told me he had never worked.(Which I found out was a lie)

            2. I don’t care about his gender……….but……….ackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk what’s worse? He was pretending to be a female and using the female facilities. Or, would have looked like a female, using the male facilities?

            My attorney friend told me to walk out, tap him on the shoulder, look him right in the eyes, and say………..”I don’t need you anymore. Roger that?”

            I didn’t do that. I brought him in my office and told him I had to let HER go. I think he knew I had found out he had been fired.

            My God, I could never remember lies like that.

          • racerrodig says:

            As David Letterman says after he tells one of “those stories”

            “……..and we laughed….” But I’m sure it’s one of those “Oh man did you miss it here yesterday… was that great or what !”

          • kindheart101 says:

            Well I was dooped, for sure!

          • racerrodig says:

            It happens but at least you got on to it before he / she / it caused more damage.

          • kindheart101 says:

            LOL True

  5. colin black says:

    Rachael says:

    February 21, 2013 at 1:53 pm

    I can’t help but think that GZ is and has been throwing SZ under the bus the whole time and probably looooong befor any of this.


    Its his types modis oparandi.
    First rule there problems always eminate from other peoples want an asspirations.
    They are simple puppets going along to get along an responable for nothing.

    Second rule if it hadnt been for X Y or Z none of this would have happened to ME.

    Third rule as thease type grow up an cause havoc in theres an others lifes.
    Others to lay blame at are whom conveient an close to Theasetypes to blame.
    Fellow Kidergarteners nursery kids /baby sitters.
    Parents sibblings family close an in foggens case?
    Spouses workmatea.
    The Weather.

    Basicly anything an everyyone that doesnt involve them.
    But those closest get the most blame for there circumstances.
    At this point in time its Shellie.
    Later on its gonna be those scarey looking 6 ft 9 Blahck guys doing weights in the yard.

    I know what there deal is .
    They want to own me like a little girl an violate my asshole.
    Theres definetly something up with them ?
    Yup he has his hand in his waist band .
    H e is holding some thing .
    Its his penis it looks black an pink.

    Now he is comeing towards me .
    Oh shit its running some sota fluid.
    A need an offfficer over here right now


    Tic tock tick tock foggen your destiny awaits you
    Look on the bright side you seem to delight in identifying weird looking Black dudes up to no good.
    Your going to inhabit a place with wall to wall people that shouldnt fail to grab your attention.

  6. colin black says:

    Irony knows no bounds.
    foggens pathetic apperell of a bulletproof wastecoat.

    An he wears this garment for shooting a child clothed in a hoodie.

    When the only person on the planet whom needed to be wearing a bulletproof vest was.


    Your name will live on.

    Foggens will be has been forgotten.

  7. Trained Observer says:

    The Fogens were renters. If she was so fearful of living at the retreat, hire a U-Haul, pack up and leave. You are right, AY2z, the black and white striped look carries interesting connotations, as does the lack of a bullet-proof vest.

    • Rachael says:

      I can’t help but think that GZ is and has been throwing SZ under the bus the whole time and probably looooong befor any of this.

      • ay2z says:

        I wonder about his attitudes towards women, in general. Don’t know why I get that feeling, maybe it’s just speculation on his seeming need to be in control of everything and everybody.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @ay2: If you haven’t had the chance read the statement from his ex who filed the restraining order against him. She gives some insight into his lack of respect for women(at least the one’s in his life. But the highlights are this
        -Told his friends he and the then fiance had split. She found this out through a mutual friend and later found he had a dating profile. This was BEFORE they split.
        -Shutting his mother’s power off and taking the key to the power box after a fight
        -found laying on his bed with their teenage neighbor and her kid. Innocent MAYBE, but highly inappropriate.
        -Borderline stalked his ex and was caught by her.
        -Talked about SheLie when they were first dating to said ex.

      • Jun says:

        No worries

        She will be heard at trial for rebuttal if Fogenhats opens that door LOL

        • racerrodig says:

          Soooooo, what you’re saying is it must suck to be either of the Fogenhats about now….correct me if I’m wrong…

  8. ay2z says:

    and let’s not forget Shellie Zimmerman’s own words in the jailhouse call talking about reprocussions of their actions and that she knew they may have to ‘pay the piper’ later.

  9. ay2z says:

    Thank you for this article, I assume that the 67 K question is what may be called a lynch-pin. The Orlando Sentinel article earlier this week talked about how few people are ever charged with perjury in Florida, and how even fewer are successfully prosecuted. That may draw sympathy and criticism about the state’s intentions in this case.

    Does perjury have to include the effect of the lie as well? There’s the obvious effect of conditions of bond that were favorable to the defendant, the ability to keep secret from the court, the financial and passport means to flee the USA, as well as to travel freely within the USA. But the defendant acted upon none of that.

    The Orlando Sentinel article mentions one case of a lie told in court to give a murder suspect a false alibi, but because that lie was not relied upon, there was no effect of the lie in determining the outcome of the trial.

    If Shellie were to first, be offered a plea and see no way out at trial, there would be no stopping the family from turning on her in a highly public way if they thought it would help their cause.

    The client has put upon his wife’s shoulders. First, there is the reason given in the shooter’s statement the night of the killing, that it was his wife who caused him to form the NW program and it was her fear of rising crime, as he claims, that caused him to promise to keep her safe (Hannity). The shooter used his wife’s gun to kill Trayvon, and he continued to mention his wife in police videos and the re-enactment (“as I said, my wife was”.)

    And he’s letting her take the fall for him, right there beside the potted palm.

    And one aside comment, Shellie appeared well put together, but for the large, stern, Trunchbold’ bun that sends a clear message or three. Instead of her chest body-armor we know she was directed to purchase with the donation money, the choice of top under grey jacket, was also also a bold black and white visual signal, maybe literal in part, maybe just bold design in part. Her make up was noticeable, drew attention to her eyes, but nothing over or under done, not a pity-me look.

    We’ll see if the visual cues work to help place her in a better position for herself, or for her husband. Whatever her presentation did, she must have felt comfortable and good about it for herself.

    • Perjury is a specific intent crime.

      The prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Shellie Zimmerman knowingly uttered a false statement under oath with intent to deceive the Court regarding a material matter.

      She knew that her statement, denying that she was aware assets of any assets that she and the defendant had, was false because she had transferred $67,000 into her personal account from the Paypal account via a series of structured transactions in amounts less than $10,000 to avoid detection.

      She knew their assets were a material matter because the Court was considering setting bail and would have to consider the defendant’s financial situation and ability to post a bond in setting bail. She also knew that O’Mara was claiming they had no assets.

      She denied knowledge of any assets because she did not want the Court to know about the money.

      That’s it.

      • racerrodig says:

        Well, in all fairness, they did have that accomplice “Peter Pan” which I have a hard time believing that will be explained away.

        I’m glad to see a perjury charge for a change. I see liars in court every time, and they know, the judge knows, the jury knows and we know, yet it’s never charged.

      • ay2z says:

        Once again, thank you.

  10. colin black says:

    The problem I see with that is that they used the money to make credit card and car payments. It will be difficult to explain how she thought that was acceptable but bond was not. Instead it looks very much as if they treated the money as their own for all intents and purposes.


    I M O

    The money was theres or his to all intents an purposes.
    If I set up a blog asking for donations for X Y Z
    Doesnt matter if I claim its for re homeing abbused donkeys or help my defence of Earth from shape shiftting reptiles as David Ike
    A multi millionaire whom excepts all forms of payment.

    Once you ask a person for money without threar or duress.
    An tey agree of there own free will to part with pocket change or a million dollars.

    That money is yours to wipe your butt with If you want to.

    foggen an mrs foggen certainly seemed to grasp that concept of the money being theres to do with as they wanted.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The donation site always clearly stated that the Fogens would accept donations for living expenses as well as for defense and the paying supporters always knew this and in fact, support this whole-heartedly. Some just might support him with gifts of money all their damn lives.

      • Rachael says:

        Dang, I’m gonna start a support begging site for me. LOL

        • racerrodig says:

          About 5 years ago when the mortgage fraud started to become uncovered a couple in CA that had a job loss and a health insurance co. that stopped paying the bills for chronic care for their toddler, was illegally foreclosed on. Someone put a site up for them to help them out. They owed about 240K on the house and has some other debt.

          Now, here’s where the good stuff happens. Before they could blink, they had over 1 million in donations. In less than 2 weeks !!
          I donated as it was a good cause. They paid off the house and he opened a business. They were able to find a new insurance co through some contact that saw this AND….they gave everyone a prorated refund. They only used about 30 % of the donations so most people got about 70 % of what they gave. That’s impressive !
          I still have the Thank You letter.

          Hey FogePhoole…..tell O’ Mara to stop bragging about what mere pittance you’ve gotten.

      • Rachael says:

        Or do I have to shoot someone first?

  11. blushedbrown says:

    http ://

    Listen forward from 50:25 second link
    O’mara: Yes they didn’t tell the truth about the money……


    • Trained Observer says:

      Help me, Rhonda! With a lawyer like this, who needs enemies!?!?!

      • Rachael says:

        and give up the only money they had – OMG!!!

        Between that an O’Mara saying, “I think the evidence in this case suggests that my client was reacting to having his nose broken…” Just where the hell do they think this case is going to go?

      • blushedbrown says:


        • racerrodig says:

          Help me get ‘er outta my heart. Is that a hint….feeling “musical” about now….

          Well since she put me down I’ve been out goin’ outa my head
          I come in late at night and in the mornin’ I just lay in bed

          Well, SheLie you looked so fine (looked so fine)
          And I know it wouldn’t take much time
          For you to help me SheLie
          Help me get her out of my heart

          This one would be toooooo easy.

    • ay2z says:

      Thanks for the link. And there’s a little more to O’Mara’s actual recorded words.

      It’s a poor audio level from the court audio that day, if you listen carefully, O’Mara clearly says “he.. he..” before switching to “they” for the rest of his ‘don’t put him in jail because ‘they’ didn’t trust you [the judge] with the only money [sob…] that they had .

      Officer of the court, O’Mara at ~ 50:30 (a tinsy little double slip)

      “.. basically yes, he.. he.. they.. didn’t tell you the truth about the money …”

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Thanks for posting this trial clip blushbrown.

  12. operacarla says:

    I’m curious…on a first offense would SheLie face jail time?

      • I have said the same, Rachael. I don’t think she will either, but Prof. L seems to think she will. I have only known a few people to do jail time because of perjury, however, and all were celebrities and served about a year. Come to think of it, I believe that was their first offense. I know it was the first offense of the Olympic runner who did quite a bit of jail time.

    • SearchingMind says:

      @ Operacarla

      I think not. But consider this, in some cases, the weight of mere conviction for felony is heavier than the actual prison sentence. Many people would happily accept to go to jail for six months without criminal conviction instead of a criminal conviction without jail time. Conviction alone carries with it a very strong stigma that weighs psychologically heavy on the convict – sometimes for life – and affect his/her social and economic activities quite negatively. Given the public nature of the Shellie Zimmerman case, I think that mere conviction would be enough punishment.

      @ Rachael

      That’s a nice link. Therein I found something (be it off topic) some of us might find interesting – i.e. the case of NOGUES v. STATE OF FLORIDA. In that case District Court of Appeal, Florida, ruled:

      “This testimony was not legally sufficient to establish the crime of perjury.   It is a well-established principle of law that “a verdict of conviction in a perjury case must have for its support something more than the testimony of one witness.”  Yarbrough v. State, 79 Fla. 256, 83 So. 873, 874 (1920).  “To convict of the crime of perjury, the offense must be proved by the oaths of two witnesses, or by the oath of one witness, and by other independent and corroborating circumstances, which is deemed of equal weight with another witness.”  Id. (citations omitted).   See also Rader v. State, 52 So.2d 105, 108 (Fla.1951) (“The falsity of the material matter sworn to must be proved by the oaths of two witnesses, or by the oath of one witness and other independent and corroborating circumstances which are of equal weight with the testimony of another witness.”);  Wells v. State, 270 So.2d 399 (Fla. 3d DCA 1972) (same), cert. denied, 277 So.2d 533 (Fla.), cert. denied, 414 U.S. 1024, 94 S.Ct. 449, 38 L.Ed.2d 316 (1973).

      Does this mean that perjury can ONLY be proven by (a) sworn testimony of two witnesses, OR (b) the sworn testimony of ONE witness and other independent and corroborating circumstances, which is deemed of equal weight with another witness?

      1$ for the correct answer.

      • Rachael says:

        I saw that too and wondered. The fact that GZ sat there like a potted plant, that he didn’t speak up – lie by omission – does that count? And also, what about the words of O’Mara himself in the video below. Although he is not a sworn witness, do his words count?

      • Trained Observer says:

        Also, what about this guy — Ken??? — from the credit union?

      • SearchingMind says:

        I think that one single evidence that is independent of the (human) will (e.g. video recording, taped conversation, etc.) can be used to conclusively prove perjury. The Court’s ruling confines itself to cases where the charge of perjury is based on witness testimony in which case ONE witness does not suffice (a derivation of the Civil Law based “testis-unus-testis-nullus-rule”).

      • Rachael says:

        I’m not sure I understand what you are saying. I mean I understand one witness os no witness, but wasn’t GZ sworn in? Doesn’t a lawyer’s words mean anything? What about the lol phone conversations (though I realize that’t not under oath).

        So are you saying yes or no?

      • Xena says:


        1$ for the correct answer.

        What about no charge? LOL

        I only read NOGUES v. State, 762 So. 2d 967 – Fla: Dist. Court of Appeals, 3rd Dist. 2000 to see what the perjury pertained to. The Appellate Court’s decision pertains to perjury committed during investigations. It pertained to police officers meeting at a home. My guess is that all of the cited cases pertain to people telling lies in a matter under investigation where witnesses are necessary to testify as to the truth of the matter.

        The State’s information charges Shellie with Perjury in Official Proceedings, a violation of 837.02(1). Her perjury was not committed outside of the court proceeding where witnesses are needed to testify what they heard. ShelLIE’s own testimony is her witness. The State supports its charge with transcripts of jailhouse phone calls where the parties are clearly informed that they are recorded; and also by the credit union statements.

      • bettykath says:

        The testimony over the phone was under oath as given by a notary hired for that purpose and as part of the proceedings.

  13. Faith854 says:

    I also believe Shelly will be found guilty at the conclusion of her trial. She better think long and hard. If Shelly sticks by George side her four years of nursing school will be a waste and she will still will have to repay her student loans for a degree she will never be able to use because of this felony. Shelly needs to make a plea bargain with the state and testify against George for a lower charge and run away from George and his wicked family. Shelly has nothing to lose if she testifies on the behalf of the state. George is going to prison for a VERY long time. George wil not be able to provide for Shelly, no sex (he prefers screwing his cousin anyway) and he has no assets she can benefit from being with him. Shelly, put on your running shoes and RUN like FOREST!!!!!!!!

    • annahkonda says:

      Yep, Forrest Gump could run.

    • kimmi says:

      IIRC, it was not 4 years of nursing school, but an online course that didn’t even offer a nursing degree! Another LIE??
      At best, I believe the most ‘advanced’ was a CNA certificate.
      Can someone help with that? I can’t recall who looked into that. BB? Xena?

      • Xena says:


        At best, I believe the most ‘advanced’ was a CNA certificate.
        Can someone help with that? I can’t recall who looked into that. BB? Xena?

        Not even CNA. They are clerical programs in the healthcare industry.

      • kimmi says:

        Thanks Xena! So, another lie from the Fogen family.

        • racerrodig says:

          I think we all just “misunderstood” I’m thinking unitron will explain it.

        • Xena says:


          Thanks Xena! So, another lie from the Fogen family.

          Like an old song says, “It’s only make believe.”

          Well, if she completed school to “be a nurse” and was unable to find a job as “a nurse” then that gives her more reason to remain unemployed, right? Why would GZ agree for her to take a job as a medical receptionist when she’s “a nurse”?

          Just as bad as having a (non) graduation party.

          Just like GZ and his college courses to be licensed as an insurance, agent, but he isn’t licensed to sell insurance and the company he listed on his MySpace page was never registered with the State of Florida.

          “It’s only make believe.”

          • racerrodig says:

            So they lied about that….that’s what your saying…..They lied ??

            “Like an old song says, “It’s only make believe.” Is that a hint ??

          • Xena says:


            “Like an old song says, “It’s only make believe.” Is that a hint ??

            Yep. Blatant, intentional lies. Anyone proud of their accomplishments has no need to lie about their education in effort to become something when in fact, they’re not in school to become what they purport. ShelLIE is ShelLIE-Shame.

          • racerrodig says:

            So “It’s only make believe” as the song goes. Hmmmmm They lied. I sense a common denominator here………but hey….that’s just me.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. Ever heard of people who lie for so long that they believe their own lies? GZ and ShelLIE make it up, like Peter Pan — you have to only believe and then it comes true, but only in their make believe world.

            I’m telling ya — ShelLIE would continue for the next 10 years telling people she was a nurse who couldn’t find a job. GZ would tell folks he wanted to be a judge, although he lacks a 4 year college degree and never attended law school.

          • racerrodig says:

            ” Ever heard of people who lie for so long that they believe their own lies? GZ and ShelLIE make it up, like Peter Pan — ….”

            Heard of them….I have a brother like them. I can smell BS lies a mile away.

      • Faith854 says:

        Thanks Kimmi. I have nothing against online degrees but I have never heard of becoming a nurse online. Usually there are clinical requirements. I don’t understand why the zimmermans mislead people with their statements. I would rather by objective in listening to both sides but the zimmermans lie to much and mislead with their words.

        • racerrodig says:

          My wife is a Phlebotomist (I can never spell that!) and I see what goes on there and I can just see SheLie learning how to draw blood or do an injection via a computer screen…..who did she practice on …..FogenPhoole ? Taaffe ?

          Ok Frank, just roll your sleeve up and……..make a fist.

          Oh, I can make a fist all right….why….burglars around ?

  14. Tzar says:

    “@attorneycrump: Photo of #TrayvonMartin taken on Sybrina’s birthday last year, eight days before he was killed

    • Rachael says:

      Hmmmm, Reese’s not Skittles.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Outstanding. Trayvon was NOWHERE anything like a thug. I grew up in what is colloquially referred to as Small-town America, surrounded by loved ones, nature and beautiful animals. That beautiful photo of Trayvon make me indeed feel homesick. The only difference between Trayvon and myself when I was his age (almost 15yrs ago) is what people call race. What a tragic fate that Trayvon crossed path with deranged Butcher on that rainy night!

      • Tzar says:

        I would be remiss if I did not take this opportunity to say that people who DO look like “thugs”, have the right to lawfully walk the public space without being subject to profiling or molestation.

        • racerrodig says:

          I looked in every dictionary I have and damn if I can find a physical description of “Thug” So I guess those of the Zidiot Nation lose on that one to….Gee, imagine that !!

          • Tzar says:

            that’s just the beginning of of the problem

          • racerrodig says:

            I took a break form the shop to catch up on the 250+ comments here and I keep looking at that picture of Trayvon on the horse.

            To be real honest…………That is the only time Trayvon was mounted on any living being. Sorry Zidiot’s that’s the fact !!

            I look at that picture, the one with his dad when Tracy is wearing the Yankee’s hat (I won’t mention Tracy is kissing Trayvon, as my 14 year old says……dad…you’re embarrassing me !) and I fail to see an semblance of “Thug” Nope….

            I do see “Thug” in a lot of Fogens pictures….anyone….anyone ?
            Yes, No…maybe ?

          • Xena says:


            To be real honest…………That is the only time Trayvon was mounted on any living being.

            Which is why I chose that picture for his birthday tribute. Taken just weeks before his 17th birthday, his physical appearance, facial features and body, cannot be mistaken for an adult and certainly not a thug. He neither looks like a thug in the 7-Eleven video. But, the Zidiots would have us believe that Trayvon was 3 inches taller and the weight that GZ is now. HA! No wonder GZ has gained over 100 lbs in less than a year. The next negative thing that the Zidiots apply to Trayvon shall also be imposed on GZ, in real life.

          • racerrodig says:

            ” The next negative thing that the Zidiots apply to Trayvon shall also be imposed on GZ, in real life.”

            “So let it be written………so let it be done”

            Funny how that stuff always seems to work out. By the time this goes to trial Fogen may look like this….

            But 1st I’ll say “Hoodies up” and I must say, I could not have picked a better video… rewrite needed.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Thanks Tzar because appearance one way or the other does not indicate anything and no one should be judged alone on their appearance not even if they are “thugs”!

      • Race. What is your point with the Weird Al video?

        • racerrodig says:

          Xena said………

          “No wonder GZ has gained over 100 lbs in less than a year. The next negative thing that the Zidiots apply to Trayvon shall also be imposed on GZ, in real life.”

          It is an irony if you watch the “Hoodies Up” (a Team Trayvon expression of solidarity) and how Fogen is gaining weight…the shoe is on the other foot aspect.

    • FactsFirst says:

      FACT-> THUGS don’t ride horses or wear REESE’S PIECES T-shirts… That’s direct violation to the CODE.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Tzar, thanks for photo link. Had he been allowed to live, I would have been so very pleased to have Trayvon for a neighbor. Look at the vitality in his eyes. … Wiped out in a heartbeat by a thug masquerading as Neighborhood Watch.

      • racerrodig says:

        Well said….Trayvon could have been a singer in my sons band, a neighbor, on my sons baseball team.

        I’ve seen all of the real pictures of Trayvon and I see what you see, a normal teen. Perfect…no, normal, absolutely. I guess the Zidiot Nation will look at that picture and go down the “..he was starting a horse riding thug burglary ring…” It will never stop. I have the same shirt he has !!! Reese’s !! How thuggish is that ??

  15. groans says:

    Xena said:

    IMO, the State has an Ace up its sleeve; i.e., the court revoked GZ’s bond BECAUSE it found that he sat like a potted palm while his wife misrepresented her knowledge of the money. IOWs, the fact of the misrepresentation has already been established by the court.

    I wonder if the State’s “ace up the sleeve” is to subpoena Judge Lester to testify!

    😆 😆

  16. SearchingMind says:


    Some jurists – among whom Ms. Jeralyn Merritt – have publicly characterized the prosecution of Shellie Zimmerman as a witch-hunt. Is it? My answer is simply: NO. I would add that such characterizations are very irresponsible and unworthy of anyone who claim to be an “Officer of the Court” and/or law lecturer at any School of Law.

    I have to admit sympathy for Shellie Zimmerman – because of certain obligations of loyalty that flow from marriage, affectionate relationship, friendship and other personal frailties and because I think that she would have done the right thing if the Butcher of Sanford had not manipulated- and maneuvered her into the position of knowingly presenting falsehood as true. But, is this enough reason not to prosecute her? I think not – based on the following:

    The philosophy underlying the prosecution of crimes include:

    a. Protection of the (re)public and public order;

    b. Special prevention (prosecution and punishment teach the offender that his action is bad and is not tolerated now and would not be tolerated in the future. The prosecution and punishment serve as a deterrent from future violations. The offender would think twice before he commits any crime again);

    c. General prevention (the general public sees that crimes are prosecuted and criminals actually punished. That prosecution and punishment serve as warning to the public/would-be-offenders that crimes will be prosecuted and offenders punished. This will deter future offenders from future violations);

    Courts depend to a large extent on witness testimony to correctly apply the law and render just and honest judgments and, by extension, maintain law and order in our society. The crime of perjury poses a fatal threat to correct adjudication and administration of justice (think of miscarriages of justice that have had the severest of consequences for innocent individuals as a result of false statements made to the Courts, etc.). Shellie Zimmerman’s criminal act is of a serious nature and occurred in a very public manner. Not prosecuting her will send the message to the public that it’s OK to lie in Courts, do serious damage to the outcome of judicial proceedings, erode the public’s faith in law enforcement and the outcome thereof, and would lead to other legal problems such as accusations of (racial) discrimination/civil right violations if in the future e.g. a certain Ms. A who is Chinese/Black is arrested and indicted for perjury, while a certain Mrs. Z who is White was let off the hook, etc.

    The State could not have avoided indicting Shellie Zimmerman. We sympathize with her. But the law must be enforced – for the good of all.

    • Rachael says:

      Agree 100%

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Yep. Let’s not forget that her crime is connected to and in a roundabout way tries to justify or support her husband’s more serious crime. I can’t blame her for trying, but the court can’t let it go.

      • gbrbsb says:

        I don´t understand how SZ´s perjury even in a roundabout way justifies or supports her husband´s more serious crime. And who knows what GZ told her. Just as the law, she may well presume him innocent and about to receive an unfair trial (she has plenty of people saying that in the media, lawyers, etc.) and she is not the brightest of the bunch. Mothers have lied for sons that have murdered without it meaning they justified or supported the murder in itself. IMO, even supporting a murderer does not mean you condone murder.

    • gbrbsb says:

      I agree entirely and it is in the public interest to prosecute and if guilty to punish, but I don´t believe Zhickel´s reference to a “witch-hunt” above was referring to her prosecution rather to the treatment and derision afforded to her sometimes here and elsewhere.

      • racerrodig says:

        Remember I posted that “Zidiot Nation Charter” last year, in part..

        Article 13 (b) Any criminal action committed by our hero shall be
        deemed a “Railroading” if prosecuted.

        (c) Any action taken by the prosecution shall be deemed
        a “Witch Hunt”

        (d) At all costs demean the Prosecutor and insult any
        action taken by such entity as having a “Political

        So, it’s part of the Charter…..

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Not nice of Jeralyn to call Shellie a witch.

  17. Zhickel says:

    Nothing to do with the Zimmermans but this case, recently heard in England gave me a giggle. Certain parallels could be drawn to Shellie’s support for her husband.

    Briefly, an MP tried to dodge a traffic fine by convincing his wife to say she was the person driving. She was eventually charged with perjury.

    The interesting thing is the mind-bending stupidity of the jury. Their questions to the judge resulted in the discharge of the jury, ostenibly because no verdict could be reached. In reality because they were just too thick to understand why they were there.

    “The jury reached deadlock after sending the judge three separate notes containing 10 questions that suggested they were “struggling” with the most “basic concept” of trial by jury.

    They included a question about whether they could reach a verdict based on something that was not presented in court, and whether the defendant’s “religious conviction” to follow her wedding vows of obeying her then husband would be reason enough to acquit her of committing a crime with him.

    Mr Justice Sweeney said he had “never come across” such a response from a jury in nearly 30 years of working in criminal courts. “

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Interesting. Seems the dumbing down of America just might be a universal phenomena!

    • bettykath says:

      A truly frustrated judge. Guess Vicky didn’t get the memo about dangling earrings in court

    • gbrbsb says:

      Bizarre eh Zhickel, I was thinking about similarities just today. I believe the charge is “Perverting the Course of Justice” not perjury.

      Don´t know though if it fits with SZ. VP is an intelligent feisty women so the defence “marital coercion” doesn´t sit well. She only disclosed the lie after hubby went off with his mistress so prosecution is obviously claiming she fessed up out of revenge not honesty or civic duty. I think the jury may have been torn. On the one hand she exposed the lie of a politician, a class barely rising above bankers at the moment, but I think the general view is that she would still be schtum and living the good life if he hadn´t strayed so she was likely very willing.

      Another twist tis that UK´s first black women judge, Constance Briscoe, is involved because VP told her (they are neighbours) that she took the points back in 2003 when it happened… not surprisingly Judge Briscoe has been suspended pending investigation but it´s hush hush at the moment so Jury may not know it, but if found guilty the prosecution may charge the Judge also.

      • aussie says:

        How could they charge the judge? you can’t be charged for someone telling you a story which may or may not be true, especially about something relatively minor like this.

        Even if a neighbour tells you they committed murder, I don’t think there’s anything to say you MUST report it under pain of being prosecuted yourself.

        • gbrbsb says:

          Perverting the Course of Justice by a governing politician or sitting Judge “relatively minor”? With a maximum of a life sentence if perpetrated by someone in position of authority it´s considered worse. SearchingMind writes a dissertation up thread on why crimes that undermine the judicial system have to be severely treated and the extra 3 points would have lost him his driving license for 6 or 12 months.

          Anyway, I think it is more complex and I made a mistake in as much as the Judge´s role was told in VP´s trial. She apparently leaked the lie to the papers presumably instigated by VP. I don´t say the judge will be charged but may be, all that is known is in October she was arrested and is now on police bail and the police have refused to say what for… the mind boggles!

  18. Ben says:

    Since I don’t like the court system…Ill take this opportunity to say that her statements would have been treated as truthful had the outside evidence discussed here was not discovered. An actual examination of evidence is a refreshing change here…

  19. Zhickel says:

    I can’t quite agree with your assessments Fred. I have a small amount of sympathy for Shellie Zimmerman; she is caught between a rock and a hard place.

    It’s absurd and non-applicable to conflate any of her actions after Trayvon’s shooting with support for the murder of a 17 yo. I agree, she is not the sharpest tool in the box.

    Yes, she will probably be found guilty of perjury. That gives her the distinction of being person #3 who has had a life wrecked by George Zimmerman.

    Consider the lives and careers that are now in the toilet because of George Zimmerman;

    1. Mark O’Mara
    2. Bill Lee
    3. Robert Zimmerman Snr
    4. Gladys Zimmerman
    5. Norm Wolfinger
    6. Retreat HOA
    7. Retreat residents
    8. Mark Osterman
    9. Shellie Zimmerman
    10. Sanford police department *list in no particular order

    Wanting to see George Zimmerman brought to justice does not mean I wish to see the ruination of every person linked to him by family or friendship. George alone shot Trayvon and yes Shellie probably lied about their asset at the bond hearing.

    I don’t see the value in conducting a witchhunt for Shellie Zimmerman; she did what she did, for her own reasons. She will pay the price. Mob mentality troubles me; it’s only a step away from lynching. The usual posters will reply with accusations of trolling, supporting racism – I can honestly say I don’t give a flying fuck how they wish to indulge their intolerance.

    Stop using nastly little plays on her name (ShelLie etc). Stop the stupid comments about her look, dead eyes, psychological state. She did what she did for reasons known only to herself.

    I feel sorry for her, but I can’t hate her. I think she is just one more not-too-bright person caught up in the trainwreck that is George Zimmerman’s life.

    • Ben says:

      Thats another reason why I dont like the Court system. Godzilla coming through. Get out of its path. You will be assimulated. Resistance is futile.

      To my mind prison seems appropriate for a murderer. But prison isnt appropriate for trying to protect a spouse…(even if accused of murder) the money probably couldnt “buy” a good enough defense lawyer to materially make a difference on the outcome of a murder trial.

      Love or even a sense of friendship can motivate smart people to do ultimately self destructive things.

      That and the previous is the extent of my sympathy. I dont feel perjury is good at all…and is a primary flaw in the Court system in which utter falsehoods become graduated into fact by uninformed people with questionable information.

      A less dramatic dialogue is in each person’s own hands.

      I happen to like Fred because he likes me, even though he knows I’m not that bright.

      • Zhickel says:

        Ben, I can see its flaws and weaknesses but cannot offer suggestions for a better system.

        Maybe in a future society juries will be obsolete and guilt or innocence is decided by popular vote on the internet.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I don’t like the prison system either because it truly does little to rehabilitate people or to properly assimilate them back into normal life. Not to mention that we have a legal system, and not a justice system, so too many poor people are railroaded into jail for things they didn’t do and/or are overcharged. (But I don’t think Fogen is overcharged). There’s a ton of things that could be done to improve our court system and jails, but the system seems to be mired in corruption and in many ways, getting worse and not better, especially with the trend of privatization / prisons for profit.

        I also don’t think that jail should be the only way to deal with offenses. Clearly, sending drug offenders to jail creates lots of corrupt situations in which lots of people who aren’t using drugs get sent. Not to mention that the drug war isn’t effective and creates a vast criminal empire and many abuses.on the legal side as well.

        There are many, many people being sent for jail time who,could be allowed community service and so on. My vision of justice would include ways to heal and to transform problems and mistakes into healthy, peaceful solutions. Counseling, proper nutrition, meditation classes, on and non. Jail should only be a solution for extremely serious and depraved crimes. And people who have been arrested should not be subjected to being punished endlessly – as in having a hard time getting jobs for the rest of their lives, especially over minor things that they’ve rectified. We need a system of full expungement – spent records. The way anyone can track down another person’s records online in the US these days simply feeds the constant discrimination.

        *end rant*

      • Rachael says:

        @Two sides to a story –

        Good post!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Thanks, Rachael! I like Ben’s better – says much the same thing and much funnier – “Godzilla coming through. Get out of its path. You will be assimulated. Resistance is futile.” :]

    • SearchingMind says:


      BEFORE you respond to Zhickel, please note that it is NOT necessary to respond to him AT ALL. We want to continue friendly discussions here without infighting. Now and then someone is bound to pop-up out of nowhere and point his holy finger at the unholy us, accusing us of everything possible. Some people cant make their point without calling others names. We understand that and are mature enough to handle the situation like adults. To avoid infighting PLEASE note that you do not have to respond to Zhickel – except as far as you concur with him (on one point or another). I think he is hoping that you go on the attack. Don’t take the bait. Ignore him!

      • Zhickel says:

        Oh for goodness sake, take an aspirin and have a little lie down.

        You are letting the emotion of the moment overrule your responses, searching mind – or are you trying to gin up a little cyber-lynching party.

        Thank goodness I can stand on my own two feet and tell you what an irrational human you are without feeling the need to attempt to influence others.

        Sorry. Very silly response.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Pls. get a hold of yourself . I think you are losing it, Sir.

      • type1juve says:

        @SM… Thanks for talking me down. You are so right in your assessment of what’s going on here.

    • pat deadder says:

      I think you forgot Trayvom Martin’s family.

    • truthseeker66 says:

      You don’t mention Trayvon & the Martin family. This is not about Shelly. She made her bed…

    • truthseeker66 says:

      You seem to have forgotten Trayon & the Martin Family. They are the only ones that have loss everything because of fogen. Their lives will never again be made hole.

    • Judy75201 says:

      I appreciate your post.

    • Rachael says:

      Husband or not, “she did what she did, for her own reasons” and unless GZ had a gun to her head and forced her to lie under duress, there is no excuse for her lying to the court.

      • Rachael says:

        IOW, I don’t feel sorry for her one little bit. She lied to the court. While she may have done it out of “loyalty” to her husband, she did it of her own free will.

      • kimmi says:

        Exactly, I don’t feel sorry for her either. In one of the calls ShelLie and Fogen were talking about “how things like this make you see what really matters” (paraphrasing). It was almost like Fogen killed a bug or something, (imo), not murdered an unarmed kid. Sick.

        • racerrodig says:

          ” It was almost like Fogen killed a bug or something, (imo), not murdered an unarmed kid. Sick.”

          Yep !! They treated this so casually that FogenPhoole posted as an insult to Trayvon on his FB page the next day “…how ’bout
          datniggyTB…” clearly a brag about capping “Trayvon Benjamin”

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Rachael, I’m with you on that and I too don’t feel one bit sorry for her as well. she knew what she was doing and the same applies to her POS of a husband concerning his crime. she also knows all about what Fogen did on the night he killed Trayvon and, yet she chooses to keep mum about it.

        How can one feel sorry for this woman especially since she tells her husband, that he is of all things a role model. NO, she will never have me feeling any sorrow for her. her husband killed a chld in cold blood and, she can see fit to call him a role model, she is as full of shit as he is. they are two peas in a pod!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’d agree with you, Zhickel, except I think Mrs. Fogen also emits a certain toxicity of her own. However, hers is possibly redeemable. Her husband’s needs some long thought in a cooler to turn around.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Zhickel — It’s not mob mentality to understand that dark, dark forces undermining the entire justice system were at work the night Fogen murdered Trayvon. That alone ropes in guys like Wolfinger, Lee and Osterman. Two out of those three are definitely now out of their jobs. Osterman deserves to lose his.

      Wolfinger, apart from being forced out of office, deserves big blowback on his twisted dealings. Why didn’t he recuse himself to begin with, rather than to play a key role in trying to sweep this teen’s murder under a rug?

      O’Mara, through his actions linked to money, deserves scrutiny and sanctions from the Florida Bar. Zimmerman’s whining parents deserve all the misery that comes their way (not because of their killer son’s actions, but because of the lies they’ve pepetrated since Trayvon’s murder.

      Retreat HOA honchos deserve what they get for letting a low-life loser renter with a dubious criminal and credit history insert himself in the serious business of running a condo.

      About the only innocents in the mess stemming from this tragedy are Retreat homebuyers new to the complex in 2012 and oblivious to mayhem just waiting to happen with a guy like Fogen.

      As for Mrs. Fogen, she’s mostly a sorry screw-up, caught up in a murder case where her own gun was used.

      • racerrodig says:

        “…Osterman deserves to lose his…” Funny you mention that.
        My son’s godfather is the instructor for what Osterman claims he did with Homeland Security and when he stated that’s what he does, needless to say, I had to ask. Well….get ready….he lied. There is no record of him. He’d have been fired because he’s not supposed to even breath what he does. So as I like to say…
        They lied…………Gee, Imagine that. Not to he stated he was with them 24 / 7 after the murder……..duhhhhhh did ya think nobody was going to put that together… “…gee dude….when do you have to time to go to work..”

      • Trained Observer says:

        Race — You’re telling us Osterman lied? Well, I’m shocked, simply shocked. Looking back (ain’t hindsight wonderful), it did seem like the Big O had a lot of free time on his hands.

        • racerrodig says:

          I picked up on “…who is that bald guy who’s always carrying Fogens bags of stuff when he was arrested, went to court, was rearrested, went back to court…..” Then he I found out who he was then he stated he was with them 27 / 7… “Inquiring minds want to know” so what the hell….I asked !!

          What better cover than “In my line of work….I’m supposed to be invisible….like 007!!” Not to mention a disgraced cop with a scam going like he did would never get hired…so he’s a dreamer and a liar.

          Lewis Black would say “He’s De – luuuu – sion – aaaal”

    • bettykath says:

      Those who hate hurt their own soul.

      I’ve objected to the name calling and the mocking. It’s taken me awhile to figure it out, but this is bullying. It doesn’t matter what the Z’s have done. Bullying is a manifestation of the character of the bully, not of the one being bullied. No excuses are ok.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The quote I posted above addresses that a bit – “Contempt is the weapon of the weak and a defense against one’s own despised and unwanted feelings.” -Alice Miller, psychologist and author (1923-2010)

        This is exactly what Fogen did when he became overly fixated on the fairly small amount of crime in his neighborhood and began seeing young blacks as thugs . . . and began to hunt and stalk them while carrying a lethal weapon.

        There’s a fine line between analyzing someone’s actions and getting fixated to the point of namecalling and bullying. It’s an easy line to cross and I find myself straying at times. It’s good you remind us of this, BettyKath.

      • racerrodig says:

        “but this is bullying” It’s not bullying in the least. It’s called “Venting.” To be even more blunt, we all got a taste of Fogen’s venting and more tragically Trayvon Martin did, as did his family.

        To be honest, The Esteemed Professor is the one who suggested Fogen. Is using the word fool too hard core as I call him FogenPhoole…..

        If you stand there and tell the members of Team Trayvon we’re wrong for saying that or SheLie…then go on every other site and tell them off. Seriously !!

        For the record, none of us here ever stoop to the level they do yet a few here act like we do, THAT”S OFFENSIVE!

        I also notice that the ones who play that game discuss the facts the least and argue “..the devils point of view..” a little to detailed.

        • jm says:

          BK: “Those who hate hurt their own soul. I’ve objected to the name calling and the mocking. It’s taken me awhile to figure it out, but this is bullying. It doesn’t matter what the Z’s have done. Bullying is a manifestation of the character of the bully, not of the one being bullied….”

          racerodig: “It’s not bullying in the least.”

          When people like the Zimmerman family become public figures who are involved in lying and killing are commented on that is nothing like bullying. To say this is a disservice to people who are truly bullied. It does indeed matter to me what the Z’s have done that bring them to public attention and if people comment on their appearance or demeanor that’s because they have involved themselves in criminal activity. If I saw GZ or SZ on the street, not knowing anything about their background, I would never comment on their appearance but under the circumstances they have put themselves in, their appearance and demeanor says a lot about their attitude and self-control issues they may have.

          • racerrodig says:

            ” If I saw GZ or SZ on the street, not knowing anything about their background, I would never comment on their appearance but under the circumstances they have put themselves in, their appearance and demeanor says a lot about their attitude and self-control issues they may have.”

            Same here…I have friends with the builds they have. I’m a little overweight 5 – 9 190…a little…

            When they and their ilk say what they do, what we say pales in comparison. Many here say things far worse than I do, and I have no problem with it because of the crime involved, the coverup, the pathological lies and so on. When one who plays only devils advocate and gets down with me about what I say…..has an agenda. They are doing exactly what we recognize O’ Mara wants.
            Turn opinions around. I’ll say this, there are a few we suspect that only drop in from time to time. The timing…..look at the timing.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @Race I’m with you at that. SheLie was pretty much the first to get a nickname and it fits the situation. She lied and her name being Shellie just made it all the easier. O’Mara? Oh please 90% of time when he opens his mouth he’s talking about money, usually begging at that. The only person to ever talk more about money was Scrooge McDuck, so O’Money is equally fitting and appropriate.

        Compared to what the other side has thrown out, our is simply as you put it venting. Every nickname from the otherside of the fence has been nothing more but pure dehumanization and even demonizing of Trayvon and everyone supporting justice for him.

        Trayvon was never a monkey/ape, a thug, a killer etc etc.

        • racerrodig says:

          Well said. I coined the terms “Moron O’ Mara” “Zidiot” “Zidiot Nation” and a few others last year. I promised the Professor I would refrain from the “Moron” part a few months ago when the term Fogen was started. The Professor coined the term Fogen as I recall.

          We are “venting” when we use these terms. We say a sample of Fogens venting and unfortunately it’s deadly. So anyone who wants to get down like unitron does about the use of names like that “Game On” it’s real simple and the likes of him won’t win that one.

          Remember only he is unitron and I’m damn glad of it…See I’m “Venting”

          If you can’t stand the heat…..don’t play with matches.

          • rayvenwolf says:

            Not to mention IF we had really sunk to the level of mocking, bullying, denigration etc we’d be publicly calling the entire family every name under the sun whether appropriate or not. Personally I’ve been good and not referred to Fogen and his sister as the Jamie and Cersi of the Zimmerman family. < If no one gets this I'm just hanging up my joke hat now.

          • racerrodig says:

            “…the Jamie and Cersi of the Zimmerman family.” You mean these two. I know that one.

            I just had to !!

          • rayvenwolf says:


          • racerrodig says:

            Is there a prize ?? what did I win….?? I have to say, that was real good !!

          • rayvenwolf says:

            a big batch of internet cookies? Lol. I mean I know it has dropped by the wayside behind everything else, but those two and how they talk to each other is mildly disturbing, especially when you compare it to how he talks to his WIFE.

          • racerrodig says:

            Only if they have Chocolate Chips…or Raisins…

            The way they “talk” to each other…..

      • groans says:

        @bettykath, regarding:

        I’ve objected to the name calling and the mocking. It’s taken me awhile to figure it out, but this is bullying.

        CONGRATULATIONS! You did it! You did your VERY OWN name-calling!

        There you were, just wanting to lay another routine ruler whack on our collective knuckles … and before you knew it … BOOM!! Out it came! “They’re a bunch of BULLIES! That’s what they are!”

        Of course, you did it in your ever so genteel way. But I bet it felt good, eh?

        I knew you had it in you. 😉

        • racerrodig says:

          Actually I think she was calling us bullies for using names like Fogen and such. Read some of the other posts sometime this afternoon, But Tell ‘Em !!

        • jm says:

          groans: “There you were, just wanting to lay another routine ruler whack on our collective knuckles … and before you knew it … BOOM!! Out it came! “They’re a bunch of BULLIES! That’s what they are!”

          LOL – a bunch of bullies who have bad character. (Per BK “Bullying is a manifestation of the character of the bully, not of the one being bullied. No excuses are ok.”) So there!! We have been schooled.

    • Malisha says:

      Naturally, when a guy like Fogen has a wife, he “has” a wife, and Shellie is just right for the part. In this respect I pity her. But she is a grown up and has to take the consequences of her actions, even the marriage itself, and her bizarre “stand by your man” routine.

    • Jun says:

      I do not agree with you

      Shellie is an adult and she is involved in the matters pertaining to the death of Trayvon Martin. She was attempting to help the defendant hide his money and passport to attempt to escape justice.

      POPS Z out of his own accord went around slandering Trayvon and the fact remains he was not there, yet he talks like he was there or he read the evidence. He also told authorities to “make it go away”. He is involved in the matters pertaining to the death of Trayvon Martin.

      If you look at the case, no one knew any of these two before they went around with their big mouths trying to hurt this 17 year teenage boy further than what Fogenhats did

      Even the Governor said to serve justice and that is what is happening

      This aint the Fogenhats’ playground

      • racerrodig says:

        Bravo !

      • KittySP says:

        Every time I think about the actions of Zimmerman and Co. I can’t help but be reminded of the scene from the movie, Man on Fire: Lisa: What are you gonna do?
        Creasy: What I do best. I’m gonna kill ’em. Anyone that was involved. Anybody who profited from it. Anybody who opens their eyes at me.
        Lisa: [Whispering] You kill ’em all.

        It definitely is in Gods Plan that ALL involved will be held accountable according to His Word and Will!

  20. IMHO……..Smoke, mirrors, greed, deceit, and a perjury charge against her…..would all be irrelevant IF what she has to offer to the prosecution would guarantee that the case against fogen would result in a slam-dunk off-to-prison-you-go finish.

  21. rayvenwolf says:

    SheLie needs to cut her losses and hope to god the feds don’t come knocking on her door to have a little chat about the fact she purposely structured the deposits so as to NOT trigger the automatic reporting by the bank. The perjury charge is the least of her troubles if that hammer comes swinging down.

    Of course this is what happens when your partner in crime thinks you’re too stupid to follow directions left ahead of time and instead must walk you through the process. I mean really where is her dignity?

  22. Jun says:

    The state should just straight up tell the defense lawyer

    “Look she can plea deal. She can plead guilty now, and do 6 months and probation or she can fight us in court and we will ask for the max. Ball is in your court.”

    I do not know if she can plea bargain information because her word does not carry much weight anyways, so a jury may not buy what she says, nor is there anything to back it up probably

    • rayvenwolf says:

      That is true. Her word is as good as his is at this point and unless he was completely stupid enough to talk out of turn in front of someone else willing to FINALLY tell the gods honest truth, the best she can do is look for a deal and hope for the best.

      It’s probably a good thing, at least for Fogen that SheLie wasn’t there that night and in on his plans. Because IF she was and IF it could be proven(and a charge thrown her way) you can be she’d change her name to Brunhilda and start singing.

    • Shellie may have overheard fogen on the phone talking/planning with Osterman and/or Taaffe the night that fogen killed Trayvon. She may have heard conversations between Osterman and fogen when the fogen’s stayed at Osterman’s place. She was the one who saw fogens boo-boos up close (and in all likelihood knew how they got there) and probably also applied the knuckle bandages. Being in the shadows for the past year, I have no doubt that she has quite a bit of inside information and has heard little slip-ups from fogen here and there. If Shellie has been very observant for the past year, I think that she has a lot to tell.

      • And even if what she has to tell to the prosecution only “dots the i’s and crosses the t’s OR “connects all the dots” to solidify their case against fogen, it would be worth just letting her go because….. compared to killing an innocent kid, what she did is nothing.

      • Professor, I agree with what you said. I especially agree with your last paragraph (Simms says….).

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Hypothetically, she could have heard Fogen say he was going to kill Burgess and friends for making a fool of him.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Probably the situation is too clear to bargain. Her only hope is to plea guilty and not risk a jury trial. Then they’ll go a lot easier on her.

      • Malisha says:

        Fogen’s situation is too clear to bargain too, but he thinks he has a defense because his daddy says, “Absolutely George should have never been charged with a crime.” Maybe they can get Shellie’s father to come into court and say, “Absolutely MY daughter should never have been charged with a crime either!” and the whole thing will go away for BOTH of them. Yeah, that should teach Al Sharpton a lesson, huh?

        • racerrodig says:

          “Absolutely MY daughter should never have been charged with a crime either!” and the whole thing will go away for BOTH of them. Yeah, that should teach Al Sharpton a lesson, huh?

          Her Papa the ex – convict ??

          The lesson Al Sharpton will learn is how much self control it takes to keep from doing this A hahahahahahaha

      • Two sides to a story says:

        LOL. Yeah, they gotta teach that Al. And Jesse. And MLK. Who the hell do they think they are?

  23. Unitron, many others have made the exact point you just posted. The only problem with that counter is the fact that she SPECIFICALLY mentioned to GZ on the jailhouse call that she thought they should pay the whole bond. His response was something like: H*ll no! Then she responded that the bond is what the money was for before cowering from that line of discourse. So, SZ’s own words strike down the defense that she might not have known that the money could have been used for bond.

    • Xena says:

      @Diary. You have a good memory.

      From pages 3 and 4 of the Information of Probable Cause Affidavit in Support of Capias for Shellie Nichole Zimmerman.

      Call # 18579780 @ 1632:
      George Zimmerman: If the bond is $50, pay the 15. If it’s more than 15, just pay 10% to the bondsman.

      Shellie Zimmerman: You don’t want me to pay $100?

      George Zimmerman: Hell no.

      Shellie Zimmerman: All right just think about it.

      George Zimmerman: I will

      Shellie Zimmerman: That’s what it’s for.

      Click to access shelliecapias.pdf

      • Jun says:

        “That’s what its for”

        Do you have the full first bond transcript?

        They still have 4 years I think to charge him with presenting false information for a bond application and perjury on official forms LOL

      • Xena says:

        @Jun. Here’s a link to the transcript of the April bond hearing.

      • Xena says:

        Jun, as I was just reading that transcript, it jumps from page 7 to page 15. Weird.

      • Rachael says:

        Pretty clear cut.

      • Jun says:

        I think another major factor why her lawyer’s claims are way off base is it is fairly obvious that she worked in conjunction with her murdering husband to hide the money and passport hence it is logical and reasonable to say the lies she told was a part of it

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Oh, Jun, that’s nice to know they can still charge him over the $ situation. I don’t suppose they’ll bother, but still . . .

      • Trained Observer says:

        Jun — On the nightmarish chance that things should go awry with the M2 trial, it’s comforting to think that there’s plenty of time to nail pottsy-palm with a perjury charge for up to five years in the pen. (Just look at OJ, doing time on minor stuff compared to the big sin. If you can’t get ’em one way, other avenues do pop up.)_

      • Cercando Luce says:

        What with all the mocking nicknames, I had to stop a minute to realize that “Gilbreath” is not making fun of someone’s breath. Sheesh…

    • racerrodig says:

      Let me do a song rewrite here to the “Theme from Rawhide”
      Trolling, trolling, trolling
      unitron is trolling
      trolling, trolling trolling
      don’t bite

      Same old same old

      • Trained Observer says:

        Ben Cartwright would never abide a troll on his spread. He’d send out Hoss pronto before any shooting got started.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I don’t think disagreeing with a particular point that other Martin supporters agree with constitutes trolling, especially if one is promoting a premise backed by some reasonable arguments. Now, if one subtly disagrees with ALL opinions here day in and day out, then it’s probably trolling!

        • racerrodig says:

          ” Now, if one subtly disagrees with ALL opinions here day in and day out, then it’s probably trolling!”

          Which is pretty much the case.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I second 2sides. By examining non-group ideas, or ideas counter to what we’re all cheering on, we may come up with rebuttals to possible defense presentations.

        That’s how we got to examining the 911 calls more closely (we now hear “Get off!”), and the police station recorded interviews for clues of what really happened after we learned there was no GZ DNA on Trayvon’s hands.

        • racerrodig says:

          That is not what unitron is doing however….he’s done this before then gets called out and disappears for weeks and when he thinks the dust has settled, comes back. He’s flat out defending SheLie and makes a big deal about any nickname any one here uses.

          When I challenge him to correct Zidiots for denigrating Trayvon
          et al his canned response is he doesn’t go on the CTH BUT he’ll quote from others there and elsewhere. He will not admit Fogen committed a crime, and he’s does not get us to look from another view….read carefully…he corrects us…

      • aussie says:

        Racer get off unitron’s case. Please. Now.

        He is presenting valid different points of view, which is making (some) people THINK, and helping them refine their own views.

        If “troll” is all he makes YOU think, you are not paying enough attention.

  24. onlyiamunitron says:

    He was specifically asking about money that could be used for the bond.

    Perhaps she thought the donations were limited to defense costs, or living expense costs, and didn’t know the legalities of what restrictions, if any, on the use of the donations existed.

    It’s not like it’s a situation with which she (or practically anybody anywhere) had plenty of prior experience.

    And when the state asked about the accounts and totals, she told them who could give them up to date figures, figures she did not have (unless there had been no activity whatsoever on that front since she last had looked at it), which doesn’t strike me as a very efficient way of concealing anything.

    As I recall, she offered to facilitate the state contacting that person, and they couldn’t be bothered, so apparently they really didn’t care what the figures were, which makes me wonder what other reason they had for asking about them.

    I’d be a little more inclined to think that the perjury charges were strictly on the up and up and had nothing to do with ensnaring her in order to put pressure on George if the state hadn’t released a transcript of her testimony with parts left out and no ellipses to indicate the omissions, omissions one might think were designed to make her appear more likely to be guilty.


    • Jun says:

      That’s a really lame argument

      She moved money in and out of accounts to make the defendant’s account appear indigent for the first bond hearing

      She had first hand knowledge of the money

      and then she claimed she had no knowledge of any financial means

      its a pretty clear cut case

      • groans says:

        Smoke and mirrors. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

      • Trained Observer says:

        The Fogens even made reference in the jailhouse phone calls to making sure transfers were under 10K, so as to not attract attention from any monitoring agencies.

        The phone calls, you morons, did you ever think about your own silly chit-chat?

      • Patricia says:

        Hi Jun, I agree with you and besides the bank I am sure has videos to back up her presence at the bank visiting Peter Pan , some people get so blind sided by money they forget how it all started!!

    • Xena says:


      Perhaps she thought the donations were limited to defense costs, or living expense costs, and didn’t know the legalities of what restrictions, if any, on the use of the donations existed.

      In one of the jailhouse phone conversations, GZ and ShelLIE had a if the bond is this much, then pay this much type of conversation. ShelLIE asked GZ if he was going to pay the entire bond amount saying that is what the money is for. ShelLIE knew.

      • Jun says:

        Besides that, she told even more lies when asked if they had any money at all by Bernie

      • Tzar says:

        Perhaps you are suggesting that Unitron look at the evidence so that he may remove the doubt to which he so generously attached his benefit…perhaps 🙂

        • Xena says:


          Perhaps you are suggesting that Unitron look at the evidence so that he may remove the doubt to which he so generously attached his benefit…perhaps 🙂

          Ahhh — you know my level of patience, don’t you? 🙂 As Cleflo Dollar has said, “In all your getting, get knowledge.”

          • Tzar says:

            We should warn Unitron that this road he is on with this answer is very junior like…I would be very afraid of risking such company

          • racerrodig says:

            Well as per his usual game plan, a few of us called him on his trollery and just like that he disappeared. He’ll lay low till the dust settles and then slither back. He’ll claim he never goes on any other site yet can quote them…..I’ll chalk that up to “He lies like Fogen”

          • racerrodig says:

            Perhaps you are suggesting that Unitron look at the evidence so that he may remove the doubt to which he so generously attached his benefit…perhaps 🙂

            Ahhh — you know my level of patience, don’t you? 🙂 As Cleflo Dollar has said, “In all your getting, get knowledge.”

            A Big Double Thank You….!

      • racerrodig says:

        I believe I’ll hop on over to your site and do a rewrite about this guy.

    • PYorck says:

      Perhaps she thought the donations were limited to defense costs, or living expense costs, and didn’t know the legalities of what restrictions, if any, on the use of the donations existed.

      The problem I see with that is that they used the money to make credit card and car payments. It will be difficult to explain how she thought that was acceptable but bond was not. Instead it looks very much as if they treated the money as their own for all intents and purposes.

    • elcymoo says:

      Sorry, Unitron, but that argument won’t fly. The question she was asked was about how much money was in the website account; she could probably get away with a defense of ‘specificity’ on that, but she had to have had a pretty accurate knowledge of how much money they’d already withdrawn from that account and shuffled between other accounts.

      I don’t see how she or her attorneys could argue that they didn’t know that the money from the begsite couldn’t be used for bond purposes, since I believe that they were already using a hefty portion of it to pay off personal loans, credit card debts, to purchase new cell phones and the necessary accounts, and a couple of laptops, etc.

      • Jun says:

        LOL I dont know how much more specific can they get

        They asked her about if she was aware of any finances to help assist costs

        She is heard on the phone talking about how the money they have can assist costs and she even says “that is what it’s for”


    • groans says:

      @Unitron: Maybe this, maybe that, blah, blah, blah, and more blah. It really is not complicated.

      Nobody asked her for anything like exact figures. She testified that they had nothing that she knew of. The judge relied on her testimony and it affected his bail amount.

      It’s very basic fraud: Misrepresentation > of a material fact > intended to deceive the court > did deceive the court > resulting in flouting the judicial system.

      • Xena says:


        It’s very basic fraud: Misrepresentation > of a material fact > intended to deceive the court > did deceive the court > resulting in flouting the judicial system.

        Excellent point! IMO, the State has an Ace up its sleeve; i.e., the court revoked GZ’s bond BECAUSE it found that he sat like a potted palm while his wife misrepresented her knowledge of the money. IOWs, the fact of the misrepresentation has already been established by the court.

        Another “in fact” is that O’Mara has alleged in motions filed while Judge Lester presided, that GZ believed that he too would be charged with perjury.

      • Jun says:

        She said she was unaware of any finances to help assist costs while on the phone calls recorded she is talking about the finances they have to help assist costs

        This is what happens when you are a lawyer and you have to defendant a Fogenhats family member

        everything is illogical and attempted to be made unclear by them when it is very straightforward

    • Xena says:

      if the state hadn’t released a transcript of her testimony with parts left out and no ellipses

      It was a motion — not a trial. The pertinent parts of the transcript were used to support the allegations in the motion. The court was not concerned with when GZ did his laundry, or what he ate for dinner.

      • Xena says:

        BTW, the motion that quoted pertinent parts of the transcript was the motion to revoke GZ’s bond. The Capias includes cross-examination testimony.

      • Trained Observer says:

        And let us not forget the court’s lack of concern for the all-important Shower Day 🙂

        • Xena says:

          @Trained Observer

          And let us not forget the court’s lack of concern for the all-important Shower Day 🙂

          LOL!! How do the courts ever make a decision when lawyers write “excerpt” and “in pertinent part”? 🙂

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Really, unitron? *eyeroll* I’d agree Mrs. Fogen felt the money was for defense only and that she and the Fogester wanted the lowest bail possible and would consider themselves indigent, but after the hearing, the jail calls revealed the full extent of the money shell game as well as the passport manipulation. There’s really no legal excuse for any of it. They were caught red-handed. She lied on the stand. By extension, the potted palm / mastermind of the operation the potted palmster lied through applying for indigence as well. If Mr. and Mrs Fogen had been forthright, the same bail would likely have been given and she wouldn’t be doing the walk of shame in and out of the courtroom, oh, and possibly Fogen wouldn’t be wearing that GPS ankle bracelet, which is amazing. He should have had a higher bail and that bracelet to begin with, considering he’s a renter and the M2 charge.

      The perjury charges are fair and I’m surprised they haven’t tagged Fogen as well. What a mess they created for themselves, First a careless death with his little pistola and then a web of lies so big they’ll be trying to unravel them to save their souls for the rest of their lives . . . :{

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I’ll amend myself – Mrs. Fogen did mention using the money for bond, so I’d say she wanted to make sure it was used for bond and defense, but still particpated in lying, hoping the bond was low because of indigence. Not that this usually stops the courts in a M2 case. This couple have been handled with kid gloves and they still think they’re railroaded, LOL!

      • HER little pistola…….

        I have still seen any record of fogen purchasing a handgun…..And remember he “borrowed” one of oysterman’s handguns…….why borrow one if you have one of your own?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yeah, that pistola web is pretty tangled too. And karmically, in God’s plan, that puts her in the driver’s seat with Fogen as accessory to a death even if our legal system doesn’t see it that way. What’s legal isn’t always moral, and karmic law makes people answer to a lot more than the legal system ever will.

    • roderick2012 says:

      Troll alert!!

      • racerrodig says:

        Yep….I stick by my assertion

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Who are we troll alerting now?

        Contempt is the weapon of the weak and a defense against one’s own despised and unwanted feelings. -Alice Miller, psychologist and author (1923-2010)

      • To Whom It May Concern,

        Please stop with the “troll alert” comments. Just because someone has a different perspective does not make that poster a troll. Mob mentality and blind groupthink is far more dangerous than a differing opinion.

        As Professor Leatherman said before, all are welcome. He also, many threads ago, explained his definition of what a troll is.

        Unitron is not a troll. I have seen his posts on here and on BCClist since the early months of this case. He looks at all angles carefully, causing others to ponder beyond the obvious thought of the group.

        If you don’t wish to respond to his posts, then don’t. But please stop with the name-calling. This site was founded on a higher intellectual level than that… with all due respect. We can disagree with dignity.

        I also sympathize with the other poster who mentioned something about our calling players in this case derogatory names, such as SheLIE and O’Money. I will not try to tell anyone what to do, but it does embarrass me to see such behavior, especially when I envite others who care about Travon to this site.

        The discussion of Trayvon’s story and the GZ case turned into an attempt by our host for us to play law students and for him to post thought-provoking narratives for us to ponder. At times now however, it almost sounds like some of the nastiness I have witnessed on other sites. I wish this site could return to the dignity that lured me into this community many, many months ago.

        I am sorry if you take offense to my response. It is not meant for that purpose.

        I feel the NEED to discuss this case, and this site has stimulated my intellect and offered me a place to engage in high-level discourse about what happened to Trayvon and all issues surrounding the night of Feb. 26, 2012.

        But witnessing the attempted stifling of others’ input through name-calling is a negative distraction, one that I don’t think Professor Leatherman appreciates. If you think someone is trolling, send our host a private message. He is a smart man and can handle what needs to be handled. Otherwise, offer dignified responses to counter other perspectives.

        Name-calling only says, “I got nothing… but I don’t like what you have to say; you do not belong here, and your input is not welcomed.”

        Only our host can say who is welcomed.



    • kimmi says:

      onlyiamunitron says:
      February 21, 2013 at 12:41 am
      He was specifically asking about money that could be used for the bond.

      Perhaps she thought the donations were limited to defense costs, or living expense costs, and didn’t know the legalities of what restrictions, if any, on the use of the donations existed.

      Aren’t you forgetting about all the credit cards that were paid off, the pre-paid phone and internet accounts that were set up?

      IIRC, that all transpired before they ‘supposidly’ let O’ know about any of the funds (36-37K) that was available to them?

      The funds (36-37K) which O’Liar stated he knew nothing about?

    • aussie says:

      Oh, right, money that could be used for the bond.

      There are addicted gamblers who are always short of the money for their rent. At the same time they have money for gambling. That is their gambling money, not “money that could be used for the rent”.

      They asked the wrong questions. They should have asked if she has ANY MONEY.
      Yes? how much, roughly?
      Could that be used for the bond?
      NO???? why not???

      Well of course MOM wouldn’t ask like that because there’s no way he didn’t know the money was there (somewhere).

  25. She knew about all money, she was ordered by zimbo to transfer all over few times a day ,even had a alarm set up on her phone,so her dumb a*s would not forget… She knew about zimbos sister , she was depositing money to for him on her account… The money from Pay-Pal didn’t vanished in to thin air. She did the last transaction day before the bond hearing… They really think that state, the judge and jurors are just dumb like them.. No way she be free…

  26. Tzar says:

    what a bunch…

    • racerrodig says:

      BDLR “Okay sister…………..who the hell is Peter pan??” Hmmm??”

    • Malisha says:

      Shellie and Fogen seem to do this thing where they do not ever answer a question. They say something they thing forwards their cause after a question is posed. It is a non-answer.

      When it gets right down to a question they cannot make up something for, they don’t remember or they can only answer “as far as I know” as if they can’t possibly know very far. “I don’t know how he got on top of me.” “To be honest, I forgot I had my gun with me.” “He didn’t look like a hard-core athlete who would train in the rain.” “He didn’t look like he was checking for his mail.” “I wanted to meet up with an officer that I had called.” “I didn’t know the name of the street, because I don’t live on that street.”

      One time I was on one of those TV talk shows (years back) and in the green room, the producer comes in and tells us not to bother concerning ourselves with the particular question we have been asked if we really want to say something, just “say it as if it is an answer to the question; nobody cares if it really is or not, and if you’re saying something you really want to say it’s gonna come across real good to the audience.” I sat there and thought, “how stupid! How would we know what to say if we are not answering questions? Would we just interject something that doesn’t follow any train of thought?” But then once we were out there with people talking, I saw what she meant. People were reacting to SOUND BYTES regardless of their context, their sense or nonsense, and their appropriateness. It’s like there were a bunch of poultry just clucking over grain being thrown on the ground and nobody cared whether it was corn or wheat. Cluck Cluck.

      People like Fogen and Shellie apparently live in a state of mental chicken-scratch! OMG it is so bizarre to think about! They float from impression to impression and they do not actually deal with information in any kind of logical way!

      • racerrodig says:

        Because “The truth never changes, but the lie…..always morphs”

        FogenPhoole has no shame when it comes to thinking he’s got one over on us, the problem is he doesn’t. The only who fails to see that is Fogen. Even the Zidiot Nation don’t believe he’s innocent, it’s about Trayvon deserving what he got and of course that “reasonable doubt” because as they unilaterally state “Corey has no case”

        The sure sign you have no case is when you play to the public like they do……and fail to actually prepare for the trial.

        “…..ladies and gentlemen of the jury……as your neighbors have assuredly told you, my client is innocent………There is no doubt that your co – workers have told you he was savagely and brutally attacked by a wannabe thug. And we call him “Black Dynamite Slim. I ask you, have your parents ever lied ? Well you’ll hear my clients mom and dad tell you that was their son screaming for over a minute for help……they’re parents and they wouldn’t lie”

        That’s about what I expect would be what O’ Mara will want to use as part of his opening statement.

      • Tzar says:

        Welcome to political discourse in the 21st century

  27. racerrodig says:

    I agree with your assessment but I don’t think she see’s that’s her best bet. “He made me do it…..I swear to God….please, help me”

    She flat out lied with her discussion of nursing school and I’d bet the farm the State will jump all over that….”Gee….seems you’ll lie about…..well…everything”

    I wonder how Peter Pan is now a days ??

    • groans says:

      Yeah. O’Mara asked how long she’d been a “nursing” student, and she responded:

      “Well, I am four weeks away from my graduation.”


      • Trained Observer says:

        Bet she ended up graduating about like Fogen did. … And as what… a bedpan collector?

      • racerrodig says:

        ““Well, I am four weeks away from my graduation.”

        A hahahahahahahahaha four weeks away A hahahahahahahaha

        My ribs hurt from laughing so hard, Dear Lord Preserve Us, she flunked “Knuckle Bandage Application” can you see here with a needle in her hand…..and getting paid to do that…. A hahahahaha
        Bedside manner……Pfffffffff

        • jm says:

          ““Well, I am four weeks away from my graduation.”

          Graduation with what degree and from where. Will we ever know the answer?

          • Xena says:


            Graduation with what degree and from where. Will we ever know the answer?

            The credit union statement provides that ShelLIE submitted a payment to Herzing University Online. Their nursing programs are for those who are already nurses and want to extend their careers into management or education. The other courses are for clerical positions in healthcare.


          • jm says:

            Xena: “Their nursing programs are for those who are already nurses and want to extend their careers into management or education. The other courses are for clerical positions in healthcare.”

            So ShelLIE and GZ are lying about her getting a nursing degree because if she already had one they would have said she is continuing her education in nursing rather than getting a degree in nursing. (I always thought you needed hands-on hospital experience to get a nursing degree anyway, at least RN degree) Wonder if specifics will come out in court about her nursing degree. Who will hire her even if she did manage to get a degree? Even if she doesn’t get convicted of perjury, she still is a liar.

          • Xena says:


            (I always thought you needed hands-on hospital experience to get a nursing degree anyway, at least RN degree)

            Correct. Herzing provides courses in management to those who are already nurses who want to obtain a Master’s degree.

            Have to wonder if ShelLIE postured her cosmetology license as the same as being a plastic surgeon?

          • racerrodig says:

            “Have to wonder if ShelLIE postured her cosmetology license as the same as being a plastic surgeon?”

            That would fit right in with Fogen saying he was getting a Degree when he was, how can I put this……a total failure.

          • racerrodig says:

            “Graduation with what degree and from where. Will we ever know the answer?”

            Only the unitron knows !!

    • lurker says:

      The nursing school comment is interesting. Certainly someone only 4 weeks from graduation could be expected to have wrapped it up by now–even if delayed by hiding or whatever–and be employed in some form or fashion.

      And certainly Florida is full of all kinds of folks with health care needs, so that even an aide’s certificate should open a door or two somewhere where nobody cares if your husband is on trial for murder.

      But, what I have to wonder is what she might have available to bargain with? My impression of Z. is that he is fully convinced in the truth of his cover story(s). People in denial work like that. And Shellie probably has as well. So–even if she is “getting stronger” as her atty suggets, what info can she possible share?

  28. Xena says:

    O’MARA: Are you of any financial means where you could assist in those costs?

    It was a question that can be answered “yes” or “no.”

    “Not that I’m aware of” sounds really stupid when you’re a married adult with financial responsibilities.

    How can any adult not know how much money they have?

    • she should of say that yeah “I have some money on my account , but they not mine, they my husbands donations…” She , well the whole dumb family,really thought,nobody will check their bank activity??

    • bettykath says:

      “How can any adult not know how much money they have?”

      LOL I just spent quite a bit of time on just that question and I still don’t know for sure.

    • Jun says:

      She structured money in and out of the murder defendant’s bank account to make his account appear broke for the 420 date of the first bond, and then moved all the money back in after the hearing

      She is obviously aware considering the extraordinary circumstances they took to hide the money and the passport

      • Xena says:


        She is obviously aware considering the extraordinary circumstances they took to hide the money and the passport

        Indeed. She even had a bank clerk talk to GZ on the phone so she would have permission to transfer the money.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        They’re just damn lucky they didn’t get charges filed over the passport and the effort to flee . . . what is she thinking by trying to fight the perjury charge? She should be begging for mercy and taking her little probation, not stretching this ordeal out to the max.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Ah, yes, the jailhouse phone chatter on the passport play … Doesn’t this put both Fogens at risk with the Feds?

      • racerrodig says:

        Are you sure we don’t just “…misunderstand…” ??

        And who the hell is this “Peter Pan” fella ….or was that part of the story from an evening of “mentoring”

    • jm says:

      “Not that I’m aware of” sounds like a practiced dodge of the question. Wonder who told her to say that? O’Mara perhaps?

  29. If She did commit perjury, Then what the hell do you call it other than and out right LIE? The entire Family know GZ had MONEY!

    • looolooo says:

      I’m not a family member, and even I knew that GZ had money. And I can not accept that O’mara didn’t know about it either. We ALL knew. It was all over the news and internet.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Right, looo. Even the most casual newspaper reader knew money was gushing in to Fogen from the numbnutz crowd. No need to be Internet savvy. How could O’Mara not have known? The Florida Bar ought to be taking a long look at MOM.

      • annahkonda says:

        Even RZ,Jr had a degree of complicity.Shellie alluded to it in one of their jailhouse calls.

  30. Jun says:

    They are really delusional if they think she was not lying

    She may try to nullify the jury but the truth is she lied

  31. kenteoth says:

    She is going to jail….no doubt about it……….

  32. blushedbrown says:

    follow new thread

    • Xena says:

      Following behind Brown, and then following my dog to bed. 🙂

    • Trained Observer says:

      Specificity, schmecificity.

      Kelly B. Simms got it right on what counts, but failed to note that will be what sends Mrs.Fogen to the slammer. The professor’s post cuts to the bone on how even the dopiest of jurors will perceive her string of “none that I know ofs” and “not to my knowledges.”

      She lied. Therefore, she’s guilty. Bring her a jumpsuit.

      As for Simms’ news conference where he carried on about how Mrs. Fogen is getting so much “stronger,” I couldn’t help but snort and wonder if he’d gotten her confused with a Greco-Roman wrestler.

      Definitely the professor has nailed it. Either she cuts loose from Fogen and spills what she knows with the State … or she’s doomed to her own time in the pen, plus the prospect of being married to a lifer. Does she want children or a career?

      Speaking of pseudo-careers, based on information and speculation posted in this blog, it appears MOM and Shellie also tried to pull a fast one as to her “nursing” school status.

      Again, specificity, schmecificity.

      • blushedbrown says:

        @Trained Observer

        >>>>specificity, schmecificity

        I like this. I tried saying it 3 times fast, tongue got all tangled. HA!

      • Trained Observer says:

        Blushed … have a feeling the Fogens will get plenty tangled on the stand.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I watched her court appearance video, and want to up my estimate of her pregnancy to 4-5 months. (Look, I could well be wrong, but she can’t close her jacket which otherwise fits.)

        • jm says:

          “I watched her court appearance video, and want to up my estimate of her pregnancy to 4-5 months.”

          If you google ShelLIE Zimmerman and see previous images she has always been a fairly hefty person. It just seemed like she was pregnant to me also because of the way she folded her arms around her stomach and with that screen shot you could see just how big her stomach is but it seems in proportion to her overall overweight status.

          For the sake of the child I sure hope ShelLIE is not pregnant.

          • racerrodig says:

            Remember FogenPhoole mentioned something about his “unborn children” on his Hannity interview.

            “For the sake of the child I sure hope ShelLIE is not pregnant.”

            I agree. Then Osterman can write another book…”The offspring of the most hated man in America” and sell 7 of those also.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Cercando — True, the jacket wouldn’t have closed over that barrel. You could be right, but hope you’re wrong. Nothing surprises when it comes to Fogen Fam’s attempts to manipulate the jury pool.

      • kindheart101 says:


        I spoke with several friends when Fogen was released on bail the second time, and we all thought the same thing. (Would Shellie try to get pregnant as a “Pity Me” statement to impact both Jury Pools?)

        Considering they have been married since 2007, and no baby, my hope is the Jury would see this as just another ploy of deception, and not even consider it relevant, pertaining to the charges they are facing.

        I have great difficulty being really mean, but in my opinion, they are BOTH the lowest of low! I feel NO pity for Shellie, and still believe she was probably present when Trayvon was murdered. She willingly talked in code and transferred money to hide in other accounts, along with a second passport.

        Would it upset me if she is pregnant, found guilty, and thrown in Prison? Absolutely not! Let her give birth behind bars, and place the baby with a loving, normal family, that could possibly break the chain of dysfunctional upbringing that both her parents, and Fogens have encouraged throughout both of their, and their siblings lives!

        • racerrodig says:

          I remember the discussions of her potential pregnancy…..and he fueled it when he mentioned his “..unborn children..” on Hannity.

          Sympathy ploy….that I doubt a jury will buy.

          • kindheart101 says:

            I wouldn’t put it past them Racer. I can just hear it now……..

            Ladies and gentlemen of the Jury. As you deliberate, please take into account that this young couple is expecting their first child……………………………….


          • racerrodig says:

            I think at least 4 of the jurors will think instantly “….I sure hope they have a “special prison” for her”

          • kindheart101 says:

            They could always sentence her to a cage at a local Puppy Mill until she gave birth?

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m telling unitron you said that…he is his “Police Team Trayvon for poor taste remarks” mode…I’m tellin’ !!

            I agree….but I’m still tellin’ ! Hehehehehehe !

          • kindheart101 says:


          • racerrodig says:

            Just kidding…..he knows already…

          • kindheart101 says:

            ::::Hanging head::: Yeah, that was pretty nasty huh? 🙂 sorry.

          • racerrodig says:

            Not nasty at all…..don’t hang your head. It comes under the “deserved it” category.

          • kindheart101 says:

            This whole thing is changing me Racer. I have never made comments like that. But, the longer this drags on, and the more that comes out, I am making some pretty rotten statements!

            I was over talking to friends, (Twink and a few others that don’t post here yet) on HP, and the more I read some of the obnoxious comments by the Fogen supporters……..I wound up throwing rocks!

            I haven’t gone back for a couple of days, I need to cool off.

          • racerrodig says:

            This “it’s just as wrong to call them names” line of thought isn’t exactly what we’re doing. Calling him Fogen or as I do FogenPhoole is called “Realistic Venting” When unitron spends all day telling us we are wrong…..but says he never goes on the CTH then tells us whats being said there….do the math. He’ll then disappear when he gets called out for a few weeks then come back. Same old same old.

          • Xena says:

            It takes venting and time to get our trauma. Zidiots are verbal abusers and verbal vandals. Their personal attacks and lies are intended to demean and abuse.

          • racerrodig says:

            That would be 100 % correct and I have found in the last 15 & 1/2 months of discussing this on several sites that one can play “Devils Advocate” and you have seen I have from time to time BUT read the ones who do that to every comment & every poster. The Professor will have a blog about a topic like this. Then the one we suspect just happens to drop on in and has to “correct” a lot of our comments. NEVER an agreement with the topic. Not one of them will admit Fogen did anything really wrong…hey, it’s about reasonable doubt or such. SheLie….specificites ….oh she said “Not to my knowledge..” and that’s not a lie.

            They just happen to drop by as a means to do exactly what
            O’ Mara wants. Divide & Conquer. Can any of us even comment on a pro – Fogen site….no, it gets deleted in a minute. I’ll stand my ground with my opinion. When one argues that SheLie ain’t lyin’, there is an agenda.

          • kindheart101 says:


            This has affected me as much as when my youngest son was mugged, beaten, robbed and had a gun held to his head 13 years ago. He was doing nothing but walking into the apartment building his friend lived in, after he had gotten off work.

            My stomach just turns when I hear all the lies and deceit, much less the way the family degrades Trayvon, his family and attorney.

            I take a break sometimes, without posting, for days. It’s not that I don’t read everyone’s comments, sometimes I just need to back off. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Exactly ! ! ! ! ! ! Victims….this is about the victims ! Look how this has turned into the Fogen “give me money show” Trayvon was a wanna be thug and every other lie. You posted about your son before and it kills me to hear any story like that. My wife inherited some money years ago, not even a lot, and her brother in law figured if she turned up dead, he’d have it. This was just before we were married. He snuck up on the deck on my house and through the hanging blinds, opened fire on us. Having been raised around guns I knew that sound and grabbed my fiancee and bent over her to shield her
            Dumb SOB fired the first shot (a .22 thank God) through the glass of the sliding door, which was part way open causing the glass to shatter and absorbing the round giving me a second to react. The only injury was a nick on my right ear from the last bullet. You could see the arc of the bullets across the wall and into the couch.

            My ear bleed real bad despite being the smallest of nicks, hear that Fogen….maybe I can testify ! to injuries

            So I have a problem with violence and specifically gun violence. When a thug like Fogen does what he did, I have a major problem with that as do most of us.

          • kindheart101 says:

            OMG! Please tell me he’s still in jail?

            The two men that attacked my son are due to get out of prison soon. They changed my son’s life forever. He used to be outgoing, friendly and trusting. They took that away from him.

            I pray they have learned their lesson.

          • Xena says:


            I take a break sometimes, without posting, for days. It’s not that I don’t read everyone’s comments, sometimes I just need to back off. 🙂

            I understand. Back around May, I decided that I would pick my own battles. I don’t generally read things written by Zidiots unless someone contacts me about something and I need to read for a purpose that I won’t post here.

            GZ is going to prison for the rest of his life. He cursed himself when he blamed God. That means that all Zidiot lies, schemes, theories and insults are nothing more than empty words to satisfy their own hunger for hate. Let their own hate consume them.

          • racerrodig says:

            I agree but can I add “having hate and hating him are not quite the same”

          • Xena says:


            I agree but can I add “having hate and hating him are not quite the same”

            Understood — hate what is evil, cling to what is good. GZ is the personification of evil.

          • racerrodig says:

            You can ask any of my friends / customers / neighbors and they’ll tell you what I am. But I hate FogenPhoole and what he did and what he represents.

            There I fell all better now. I was just venting again.

          • kindheart101 says:

            I know what you mean Xena. I get emails telling me about things that were said, or going on. I have pure faith that Z will go to prison. I refuse to believe anything else. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            ” I refuse to believe anything else. :)”

            Journey ……

            Don’t stop believin’
            Hold on to the feelin’
            Streetlights, people
            Don’t stop believin’
            Hold on
            Streetlights, people

            He’s done…..

          • kindheart101 says:

            Love it! 🙂

      • aussie says:

        George went to visit an ex-girlfriend behind Shellie’s back and complained to her that Shellie does not want children.

        She didn’t fail to get pregnant in all those years by accident — she must have been doing something to make sure.

        If she didn’t want them while fairly comfortably living free with him, why would she want one now, facing the prospect of bringing it up alone with her husband in prison?

    • cielo62 says:

      >^..^< DANG! I have a week of testing students (and I hate it as much as they do) and all hell breaks loose! 2 more threads and over 700 comments!! Anyway… IIRC, Shellie hadn't taken a nursing class in TWO YEARS. What a WHOPPER of a lie that she was "four weeks away from graduating"! What? The same type of "graduation" as her husband?? Either she gets the book thrown at her (deservedly) OR she cuts a deal and dumps her dumpling!

      • blushedbrown says:

        OMG over 700 to check, Geez its going take you a minute to get through all that.

        IIRC, In the Osterman book, it was written that she took her labs/clinic studies or something to that effect at some nearby school. I don’t know how much of that is true. I don’t know of any online courses that give you a nursing degree without doing work/study on actual human beings. I

      • Xena says:


        Anyway… IIRC, Shellie hadn’t taken a nursing class in TWO YEARS. What a WHOPPER of a lie that she was “four weeks away from graduating”! What?

        There’s deception in what she says. ShelLIE paid Herzing University Online from donations. The thing is, Herzing University Online is not a nursing school.

        Thus, it might be correct that she hasn’t attended nursing school in two years, but she was attending an online school for healthcare clerical careers so postured it as nursing school. In the alternative, she doesn’t know the difference between a medical billing clerk and a nurse.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I don’t know what RZJ and Dad are talking up a storm about, they’ll never be called because, if there’s anything that would sink the defense faster than their lack of expertise at law, it would be character references, since that would open the door to a flood of impeachment material, enough to end the trial on it’s own.

        If anyone wants to egg the CTH, just keep on with the issue of GZ has no character references. I mean, how could it be that such a fine upstanding citizen, and a “decent American”, has not one character reference at all, who can be put on the stand to say what a wonderful person he is? The jurors are sure to make something of a glaring anomaly like that eh?

      • bettykath says:

        I don’t know Shellie’s status, but it’s not unusual for someone to take a class or two at another school to complete requirements. It’s possible that Shellie just needed another class or two for a degree or certification from the school where she did her field work/labs/whatever.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: