George Zimmerman Should Waive the Immunity Hearing

Monday, February 18, 2013

Should the defendant opt for an immunity hearing or should he waive it?

I conclude that he should waive it because he has a vanishingly small chance to win the immunity hearing together with a substantial probability that the publicity generated by the hearing will cause irreparable damage to his credibility and destroy his claim of self-defense.

First, the defendant has the right and the responsibility to make the decision. His lawyers have a duty to help him make a well-informed choice and he should consider everything they say. As I used to tell my clients, they have to make the decision because they will experience the awful lifetime consequences of the wrong choice, whereas right or wrong, I get to go home.

Second, I believe he should make an evidence-based decision carefully weighing the probability of success against the probability of failure and the likely effect such failure would have on jury selection and seating a fair and impartial jury a month later. For example, how might the negative publicity generated by the physical and forensic evidence contradicting the defendant’s claim of self-defense, the defendant’s failure to handle cross examination, and the Court’s denial of his motion for immunity hurt his chances of success at the trial?

Unlike immunity hearings in other SYG cases, the defendant can reasonably expect that a substantial and well-informed national audience will watch gavel-to-gavel and livestream coverage of the hearing as well as comments and discussion by forensic and legal experts analyzing what happened and predicting what will happen at the trial. The massive publicity and national discussion that the hearing generates, little more than a month before the parties start selecting a jury, likely will be unprecedented. Accurately estimating the potential negative impact of a decision denying his motion for immunity and the evidence that supports that decision will be difficult because we have never been there before and have no standard for comparison. Nevertheless, I am expecting a tsunami of bad news for the defense as it becomes clear that he did not tell the truth.

Can the Court adequately screen prospective jurors to eliminate the effect of negative publicity from the immunity hearing on the defendant’s claim of self-defense?

The Court can use individual voir dire to screen jurors regarding what they have read or heard about the case, whether they have formed any opinions about the defendant’s guilt or innocence, and if they believe they can put aside any opinions they might have and objectively evaluate the evidence admitted at trial. Even though individual voir dire can take longer to seat a jury than trying the case, the process offers a major advantage over the traditional method of questioning jurors in the presence of each other. It creates an opportunity to thoroughly question each prospective juror without fear that any answer might influence or poison the others.

Individual voir dire complimented by the use of juror questionnaires that focus attention on problematic answers is the best method available to screen prospective jurors regarding whether and to what extent their objectivity may have been compromised by pretrial publicity without risking that their answers will compromise the objectivity of other prospective jurors who may not have heard that information.

Prospective jurors who admit that they do not believe they can weigh the evidence objectively and decide the case in a fair and impartial manner will be challenged and excused for cause. Since there is no limitation on the number of challenges for cause that a party may assert, the use of individual voir dire should result in significantly reducing, if not eliminating prospective jurors whose objectivity has been compromised by exposure to pretrial publicity.

However, having screened jurors in capital cases using individual voir dire and juror questionnaires regarding their opinions about the death penalty and the effect of pretrial publicity, I have learned that many people are unaware of or seriously underestimate the effect of pretrial publicity on their ability to objectively weigh the evidence admitted during trial. When I ask if their objectivity has been compromised by pretrial publicity, many of them will react with a hostile denial as if I had insulted them.

I generally attempt to exclude people from serving on juries deciding my client’s fate, if they stubbornly persist in denying that information about a case can create a bias or prejudice about the case or my client and that such bias or prejudice thereafter will function as a filter that affects how much weight they will assign to the evidence. I have discovered that awareness of or sensitivity to this process promotes objectivity.

When a prospective juror takes offense, I begin a chase to trap them into answering a question that provides a basis to support a challenge for cause. If I am unsuccessful, I have to use a peremptory challenge to eliminate them. Unlike challenges for cause, a lawyer is not required to provide a reason for asserting a peremptory challenge. Judicious use of peremptory challenges is required because each side has a limited number they can use. For example, each side will be limited to three peremptory challenges in the Martin case.

I do not believe three peremptory challenges per side will be sufficient to eliminate the risk of a jury tainted by negative publicity about the defendant and his case at the immunity hearing a month earlier.

A possible solution might be to continue the trial to allow people to forget, but I do not believe that strategy will work because the defendant is toxic and his conduct was too egregious. People are not likely to forget.

Given what I know about the evidence in this case, I would recommend that the defendant waive the immunity hearing. I believe the probability of success is vanishingly small and the potential for irreparable damage to his defense is so high that he can only diminish his chances of winning the trial if he proceeds with the immunity hearing.

469 Responses to George Zimmerman Should Waive the Immunity Hearing

    • ay2z says:

      My goodness, I only saw the last one posted as I came in, that was fast!! Not going to open the new one until I have a cup a’ and can sit back and read.

      Back Soon!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        He was angry and probably displayed his anger. But that anger was inexplicable to Trayvon because Trayvon could think of no reason for it. Thus GZ appeared crazed.

        He says he did not identify himself because, while in his truck with a firearm available, he feared for his life. But, while still in fear for his life, he exits his truck and follows the cause of his deathly fears?!?

        Does that sound like it’s true? Or does it sound like a self serving contrivance, designed for the purpose of shifting blame, so as to avoid the possibility of being sentenced to spend 30 years to life in prison? You be the judge.

        • GUILTY

          What you say is EXACTLY what I’ve seen…and more..

          I mean I’m not gonna go chasin’ after someone I just told the cops I was afraid of………Makes sense in fogens world tho !!!!!!!!!

          The hell with hip boots or chest waders……fogens BS has gotten so deep you’d need scuba gear…….

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            …And that’s just one pool of BS he’s left behind. The jurors are going to need submarines to get through this trial.

          • racerrodig says:

            In every trial I’ve been part of the state gives the jurors a pen and a legal pad……any bets there is a 3 foot high stack by the 3rd day of trial. Very often a jury wants to review testimony….that should be a hoot.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            This trial will probably be amazing. I doubt, if they put GZ on the stand, he’ll manage to survive direct. Forget about cross. I mean, look at how he answered Hannity when asked if he had time to reflect. I doubt a jury could withstand too many answers like that before they decided GZ needs to be removed from society forever.

          • racerrodig says:

            I didn’t I did because well obviously I was in solitary confinement.

            Hmmmm 1st, how would we know that tid bit and does solitary make you just a bit more stupid than normal ?

            On direct, oh about 3 hours in, I think he’ll grab his chest and act like, well somebody shot him in the chest. Survive …..not a chance.

            Cross……where do I buy tickets ?? If I go, I’m bringing a spare Bible because they one he lays his fat hand on will spontaneously combust before the “o” of I do resounds in anyone’s ears. Really… I see that coming. People see the face of Jesus in a slice of toast…they ain’t seen nothing yet !

            He is of the opinion that he can sell ice to Eskimo’s…..we’ll see ! He forgets the obvious…’s Sunny Florida.

  1. colin black says:

    mountainmanpat says:

    February 19, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    OK People….what can I substitute for hoodie material….I’ll do a test myself….hoodie material over a T shirt, bunched up and squeezed together with vise grips….then take a couple shots at 6 inches..

    Don’t want to use one of my own hoodies as the holes caused would cause a draft


    Old rags my wife has a cupboard full of stuff she says will do for dusters.
    Pillow covers old tshirts loads of cleaning rags she calls them.
    Just dont use a string wife beater vest.

  2. Xena says:

    Well, GZ’s case against NBC is going no where. Filed in December, there is no return of summons docketed, neither waiver of summons filed.

  3. groans says:

    According to cfnews13: “George Zimmerman’s attorneys will be back in court on Friday, to set a date for the stand your ground hearing.”

    • Jun says:

      The judge already stated if they wanted that hearing it is set for April 22, 2012

      He’s not going to win it anyways

      He committed murder and is trying to cover it with lies, which can be exposed by the fact it is in direct contradiction to his own earlier statements and also forensic and ballistic evidence

  4. ay2z says:

    Shellie’s gun, why did the killer use Shellie’s gun? It’s not a responsible gun owner who doesn’t know where his own gun is located, so picks up his wife’s gun to tote to Target.

    That may have a simple explanation, or a deliberaate substitution, it may show intent to use a gun that night. Was one gun not working as smoothly as the other? Was one gun known to have fired at someone in the past and that bullet might yet be located, therefore a different ‘clean’ gun would be needed?

    • Trained Observer says:

      I had lost track that it was Missus Fogen’s gun used to kill Trayvon. What kind of gun does (did) Fogen have?And what have been his varying stories so far (I assume there have been several out of his mouth) on why he wasn’t toting his own gun to Target.

      • racerrodig says:

        They both have (had) the exact same make and model.

        • We’ve seen the receipt of the purchase of shellies weapon…..which is now in evidence………I have yet to see where and when fogen purchased a firearm…..AND if he did have one…..wouldn’t the court have made him give it up upon his arrest?… record of that……..Remember also it was a .25 cal. of oysterman’s that fogen “borrowed” and had in his possession in oystermans car when he was arrested.

          I DO NOT believe fogen had a kel tec pf 9 of his own… evidence so far that he did have one…..other than fogens stories.

      • ay2z says:

        You know, there could be more to the uses for the wee wifie in any future perjury ‘negotiations’. What can she say about her gun and why someone killed someone with it? And where was the other gun? Someone else have it in hand that night?

        I always assumed that SZ would have a gun with her at all times, but was she even home alone that night?

      • Trained Observer says:

        Ah, so his and hers … charming. Maybe like car keys by the door, just grab and go?

      • jm says:

        Thanks for the video. Although ShelLIE looks somewhat pregnant, I realize it’s just her overweight status but she does look smug and I want her to be found guilty. Nice of her to keep her hair styled with blond streaks for her appearance. Guess things aren’t so bad at the Zimmerman’s hideout?

      • groans says:

        That’s funny – “smug” was the word that came to my mind, too.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Aren’t drop pearl earrings a little fancy comboed with slacks? Has the defendant considered the propriety of a dress? Guess she’s never heard of John Molloy.

      • tonydphotog says:

        I like how they had the balack guy sit next to ShelLIE, as if to prove they’re not racist.

        • Xena says:


          I like how they had the balack guy sit next to ShelLIE, as if to prove they’re not racist.

          If all of GZ’s AIS security were White, and he’s not paying the brother the same rate of pay, then GZ is a bigot racist because he’s not paying equal pay for equal work. Hey, a brother has to work, but $700 a week opposed to $7,000 is no where close to being equal pay.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Yes, that escort was a nice touch, and so apropos for this zidiot family that seems to think it’s all about race, and not about the fact that their boy is a moron menace who shot an unarmed kid first and tried to figure out a way to weasel out it of later.

      • bettykath says:

        I thought Shellie looked nice. Stylish, well fitting pants suit. The pearl earrings were a nice touch. Her hair hasn’t been streaked for several months and quite attractive pulled back.

        Every time the defendant is mocked for his pronunciation, so, too, are other Spanish speaking people for whom ESL . Every time he and Shelly are mocked or insulted about their weight, so, too, are others who are over weight.

        May you never be mocked for your accent. May you never gain unwanted weight.

        • Xena says:

          I thought Shellie looked nice. Stylish, well fitting pants suit. The pearl earrings were a nice touch. Her hair hasn’t been streaked for several months and quite attractive pulled back.

          The jacket of a woman’s well-fitting pants suit buttons and is not worn open. Earrings past the earlobe are not appropriate for court. The ball on the top of ShelLIE’s head looked fake.

          Every time the defendant is mocked for his pronunciation, so, too, are other Spanish speaking people for whom ESL .

          Why don’t you correct the Zidiots who mock attorney Crump’s accent? Why don’t you correct the Zidiots who write in Whigger to mock all Blacks?

          • racerrodig says:

            I had to go that road. A lecture and she spelled the defendants name wrong….Shellie with an “ie” not Shelly.

        • racerrodig says:

          Really ……Funny we got the lecture like that.

          By the way……its’ “Shellie” with an “ie”

        • cielo62 says:

          Bettykath- I’ve been both ridiculed for my gringo accent as well as my weight. But I STILL think its funny to make snide remarks about the GZ duo. They thought they would be living high off the hog with other people’s money. Instead they ARE hogs and proving it with each appearance. It’s a moral metaphor for how far they have come. There is no shame or self control. And it shows.

          Sent from my iPod

          • jm says:

            cielo62: “……….But I STILL think its funny to make snide remarks about the GZ duo. They thought they would be living high off the hog with other people’s money. “Instead they ARE hogs and proving it with each appearance. It’s a moral metaphor for how far they have come. There is no shame or self control. And it shows”

            Exactly cielo62.

            I think their demeanor and weight tells a lot about their character.

            If I were facing a trial where part of the evidence was I sat on a kid after I killed him I sure would not present myself in court as a 300-400 pound (?) tub of lard and would be working to lose weight not gain more than his original chunky weight when he did sit on Trayvon after shooting him. If I killed someone and learned later that person was where they belonged, walking home from the store to a condo they were a guest at, with no criminal record I could not continue on without remorse or regret – which GZ clearly told Sean Hannity, he had no regrets for what he did.

            If I clearly lied in court and plotted in recorded prison calls with my killer husband I would maintain a low profile and be contrite and humble. Maybe SZ won’t be convicted of perjury on a technicality but there is no doubt she meant to deceive the court and did lie about the money she had switched back and forth to accounts in an attempt to hide the money.

            The Z family arrogance, lack of remorse and lies is what makes people criticize them. Not to mention their begging sites where they hope to live off of OPM (other people’s money) and not find something to do to earn money on their own.

          • racerrodig says:

            I agree completely and I know as being very outspoken on this, and there is a method to my madness, much of the Professors post is directed at me and what I say.

            My problem I have is with the ones who clearly “correct” everything someone else says, never argues the know evidence, “tells us what to do” has a problem with anyone who “insults” Fogen, and can quote irrelevant and obscure garbage not to mention things said elsewhere that is Pro – Fogen, all the while claiming to play devils advocate. The transparency is ridiculously obvious.

            Many a time the core people here are having a very informative, and very often humorous conversation when out pops one who disrupts it. The pattern is so obvious I laugh myself right off my stool…………..

      • bettykath says:

        “Why don’t you correct the Zidiots who mock attorney Crump’s accent? Why don’t you correct the Zidiots who write in Whigger to mock all Blacks?”

        Because I don’t go there.

        • racerrodig says:

          But you chastise those on Team Trayvon ? I can spell “Hypocrisy”
          can you “”

        • Xena says:

          Because I don’t go there.

          I don’t take part in fat jokes, although I was shocked at GZ’s weight gain and voiced my concern for his health. Neither do I write in phonetics, but as long as the Zidiots mock the deceased, his parents, their attorneys and those Black activists who helped expose the injustice, it’s hypocritical for you to be the comment police here but surrender your authority when it comes to Zidiots.

      • bettykath says:

        “The jacket of a woman’s well-fitting pants suit buttons and is not worn open. Earrings past the earlobe are not appropriate for court. The ball on the top of ShelLIE’s head looked fake.”

        Jackets can be word open or buttoned. Many are designed to be worn open. Since when did courts have a code for earrings? Earrings should be chosen to flatter the face. Shellie made a good choice.

        btw, pants suits are now accepted in all venues. I haven’t worn a dress in about 25 years, including weddings and other posh events.

        • Xena says:

          Jackets can be word open or buttoned.

          It must be a southern thing. Here, it is appropriate when in court for women to button their suit jackets.

          Many are designed to be worn open.

          If there are no buttons, yes.

          Since when did courts have a code for earrings?

          The Bar Associations have been and are the fashion police for courthouses. Most lawyers advise their clients of what is appropriate but not what is not appropriate. Much of it depends on the class of the client. The best way for a woman to know what is appropriate courtroom attire is to observe women attorneys.

          Earrings should be chosen to flatter the face. Shellie made a good choice.

          Some women wear earrings to match their outfit. ShelLIE looked like she was going to a strip joint.

          btw, pants suits are now accepted in all venues. I haven’t worn a dress in about 25 years, including weddings and other posh events

          I said nothing about dresses.

        • cielo62 says:

          I know there’s a dress code for court. In Houston, it’s no cut offs and no sleeveless shirts. No hats in the courtroom. Other than that, just about anything goes!

          Sent from my iPod

      • Jun says:

        LOL at I dont think she lied

        She got caught redhanded

        Considering a small detail into the matters pertaining to the death of Trayvon Martin and they discovered this, the Fogenhats trial will be a massacre

        I can already tell the attorney is going to try to play around with words as if the question asked to her was confusing when in fact the question asked of her was actually very straightforward, and she obviously has first hand knowledge of the money, considering it was moving in and out of her account

        The Fogenhats family is nothing but a bunch of nickel and dime store hoodlums and con men

      • Trained Observer says:

        Mrs. Fogen looked “nice”, (a questionable word and depending on one’s viewpoint) if she were going to a party or bar-hopping.

        As a defendant on a felony charge, this was not how to look in court. Keep the danglies off the lobes … don’t think for a minute that black slacks and a jacket are going to pass for a pantsuit. … And don’t think for a second that a pantsuit will trump a dress, when you’re in the mess that this wifey is in. At least this liar gets points for not chewing gum….yet.

        • Xena says:

          @Trained Observer

          Mrs. Fogen looked “nice”, (a questionable word and depending on one’s viewpoint) if she were going to a party or bar-hopping.

          ShelLIE should probably get used to the idea of wearing a jumpsuit.

        • racerrodig says:

          I vote it was the bar hopping look. The earrings flopping looked bad but the arrogant look……

        • cielo62 says:

          TrainedObserver- Shellie looked nice as opposed to “trashy”. If the judge had been offended I do not doubt for a second that Shellie would have been sent home. It was ok; appropriate enough for the courtroom. At least she appeared this time.

          Sent from my iPod

      • Two sides to a story says:

        She looks confident that her attorney will win the motion. She’s also enjoying the limelight.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I can also see Xena’s pov, that she’s mustering some pride to avoid shame. Most people would want to do that in her shoes, and especially in front of cameras.

        • Xena says:

          @Two sides. IMO, ShelLIE was nervous as nervous can get. She didn’t know what to do nor what to expect. After the judge ruled, she looked like she didn’t know if she was suppose to leave or what. And as she did, suddenly she lifted up her head. That was to hide her shame.

          Not only is she charged with a felony, but she was on camera, and the court denied her dismissal motion. She tried to look like she has class, but knows that everyone following the case knows she is poor, homeless, unemployed, with a husband who is the same and also looking at life in prison. Poor thing probably vomited when she got out of that courtroom.

          • racerrodig says:

            Don’t commit the crime if you ain’t willin to do the time. Harken back to her sarcasm and smugness on all of those jailhouse calls. I have no sympathy for her. She talked in that stupid code which is an insult to the court and if she has that issue…’s called a self inflicted wound.

            Then there is Sims and his comments. Is there a rating of lawyers in the phone book like…….

            Dewey, Fleeceem & Run Attorneys at Law.
            Immoral…….XXXXX XXXXXX has handled many cases in his 21 year career including divorce, petty crimes, traffic violations and Fogenizing

            The Law Firm of Dewey, Cheatem and Howe
            Unethical XXXXXXX XXXXXX has a long distinguished career and is recognized as a last resort attorney, so if you need muck slung, delays, confusion and Motions filed in wholesale fashion just to annoy the judge this is the man for you. He excels at trial with a jury. He excels at getting the jury to fall asleep and getting mistrials.

            I see what O’ Mara does and says the Sims and I can’t imagine anybody breaking down the door, well, unless it’s an expert or a security co looking to get paid.

          • Xena says:


            Don’t commit the crime if you ain’t willin to do the time. Harken back to her sarcasm and smugness on all of those jailhouse calls. I have no sympathy for her.

            I do feel sorry for her — sorry that she married a POS. Without GZ, ShelLIE would have nothing. Oh snap! With him what she had, she doesn’t have anymore.

          • racerrodig says:

            The perfect marriage made in hell.

          • Xena says:


            The perfect marriage made in hell.

            Presided over by Sondra Osterman,

          • racerrodig says:

            How convenient ……Did the Bible spontaneously combust ?? I know it will at his trial when he’s sworn in…..He’ll get a few singed fingers and God will say “….what a Plan I have…” then a little confirmatory thunder……Satan will sneer and say….”He’s all mine….
            …unrepentant murder…….and a liar………….I just hope he doesn’t take over”

            Then the Lord Almighty will say…….”he’s your………Now and Forever…………Amen !!!!!! ?

          • cielo62 says:

            Racerrodig- oops! Have to throw in some catechism! GZ COULD be saved if he repents and does penance. Ie he would have to confess and take his punishment. Hmmmm… Maybe you are right!

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            In a few months we will be analyzing, frame by frame, at exactly what point combustion took place, ergo pointing out the exact moment God had had enough…..

            Did you voice the thought that Fogen might repent, or that there there is merely the “possibility” ?? as slim as it may be.

          • cielo62 says:

            Racerrodig- as I said, it was catechism. Hence it’s the theoretical theology of repentance. Could GZ repent? Per catechism, yes. Per reality, no!

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m leaning towards your “reality”

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena- it’s so hard to know what Shellie must have been feeling since we know so little of her as a person. We make numerous inferences; she’s a liar, maybe she’s abused, maybe she’s a willing participant. I mean there’s so much we don’t know. For her sake, I can only hope this experience has opened her eyes. As CS Lewis once observed, shame cleanses our souls and leads to change.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:


            Xena- it’s so hard to know what Shellie must have been feeling since we know so little of her as a person.

            Our first glimpse into ShelLIE’s character was via the jailhouse phone calls. GZ did not appear to have much confidence in her; asking the same questions and giving her the same instructions more than once; reminding her to do things, write things down.

            There is another glimpse from the credit union statements. He left the Osterman’s and Shellie went on a spree of spending money eating out; purchases from ITunes; over $200 at a beauty supply store. That conveys a sense of having financial freedom in his absence, whether or not the expenditures were justifiable. They were apparently what she wanted — how she wanted to live without his constraints.

            The next time we get a glimpse into her was at the first bond hearing when she testified. She deflected some questions and went beyond “yes” or “no” answers for others. As it turned out, she was dishonest about the money.

            ShelLIE understood the codes GZ used from jail. She understood she was suppose to lie about the amounts of money. That conveys a connection with GZ to know what he wants without it being directly said. Control maybe? Don’t know.

            In my heart is an amount of compassion for her, while yet still holding her responsible and accountable for assisting GZ to lie to the court and hoping they could flee from prosecution. For that, I have no respect for either of them.

          • racerrodig says:

            I have some pity for her on one hand and then re – listen to what she says and who she defends. I think it comes down to this. If you are taught 1 + 1 = 3 from the time you can understand any thinking concept, then go to school only to get laughed at, where do you stand.

            Many times we see a friend date a total loser and they think this is Prince / Princess Charming because they never had a relationship with someone who is not abusive.

            On top of that, over time people change. We have a glimpse into Fogens past even though it is incomplete, did she have that information or did she date losers worse than Fogen ????

          • jm says:

            “In my heart is an amount of compassion for her, while yet still holding her responsible and accountable for assisting GZ to lie to the court and hoping they could flee from prosecution. For that, I have no respect for either of them.”

            I can only have compassion for SZ if I consider she may be dumb as a rock or white-trashy where she doesn’t know any better how to stand up for herself or make decisions for herself.

            I am giving her credit for being a thinking human being, capable of making decisions, not being threatened by anyone that she needed to lie, and a willing participant in hiding the money from the court,

            I have no compassion for her, other than it must be tough to be in her position, trying to brazen it out that she didn’t lie when she knows she did and if she is smart she has to know she screwed up Big Time but can’t admit it publicly.

            I hate the idea that women sometimes are given or take a pass that somehow a man made her do what proves to be a critical error. (I am thinking of Jodi Arias as well as SZ.)

            Sorry if I offend any one in my criticism of SZ.

          • cielo62 says:

            Jm- this is what I mean by not feeling like I have enough information to “classify” Shellie. I would say she is a loser and not too bright. But given that, it feels like she has diminished ability to make adult decisions. GZ can control her and probably play around behind her back and she’d never be the wiser. As long as he “takes care of things” she probably feels the relationship is ok. That is why I can only hope that going to jail and getting her own criminal record will jar her loose enough to see that GZ is far worse than a petty thief like daddy. He’s a murderer.

            Sent from my iPod

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I think she’s pregnant–3-4 months.

        • jm says:

          “I think she’s pregnant–3-4 months.”

          Ewwwww. I hope not but it was my impression too. Just hope she is trying to keep up with GZ as far as putting on weight since they don’t have much else to do but eat.

          • racerrodig says:

            If she is pregnant, O’ Mara would have a “Give to the tortured Baby” site. It just looks like she has a favorite Pizza Nite as well as Fogen.

        • cielo62 says:

          NO! Why? The very act is child abuse!

          Sent from my iPod

      • Cercando Luce says:

        That’s why she’s letting her roots grow out.

    • Xena says:

      @groans. ShelLIE was nervous as a son-of-a-gun. One thing I don’t understand — why is the brother working security for $700 a wk when GZ paid the White guys $7,000 a week?

      • groans says:

        Xena, I appreciate your insights. I can definitely see now what you’ve pointed out about nervousness and masking shame.

        (As for the security crews, I don’t know. I didn’t even know there was a difference in racial make-up of the two companies’ security staffs.)

        • Xena says:


          (As for the security crews, I don’t know. I didn’t even know there was a difference in racial make-up of the two companies’ security staffs.)

          We didn’t see GZ come to court while out on bail until around October because for both his bond hearings, he was in jail. So, there was no security. We did however, see him leave jail on bail and both times, other than Osterman, there was another White guy. Now, every time we see GZ come to court (and now also ShelLIE), there’s the same $700 a week Black guy with him. That’s a big jump from $7,000 a week and a hotel room.

    • racerrodig says:

      Talk about an arrogant look…..why are you wasting my time….

    • Rachael says:

      Her striped hair matched her striped blouse.

      • jm says:

        Rachael says: “Her striped hair matched her striped blouse.”

        Nice touch. Wonder if she planned it?

        Anyway, I would think she would be humbled by her circumstances as she did commit perjury (lie) while millions of people listened and I thought she had a smugness to her demeanor and it was off-setting just as GZ’s smirk.

        Looks like neither Zimmerman realize what foolish people they are and perhaps are reading the squirrels in the treehouse posts/propaganda. What these unintelligent Zimmerman cons fail to recognize is most of their support is coming from racists and gun nuts.

        • Xena says:


          What these unintelligent Zimmerman cons fail to recognize is most of their support is coming from racists and gun nuts.

          They know. That is why Zidiots and Junior have created and launched a reverse racism campaign. It justifies their racism and seeks to attract more White Supremacists, militia and sovereign citizens to support GZ.

  5. Jun says:

    I think Omara will try to keep CSI nerds off the jury

  6. Jun says:

    Here is the psychological phenomenon I am talking about

    Well partially

    People who want to support killers or serial killers for their crimes

  7. OK People….what can I substitute for hoodie material….I’ll do a test myself….hoodie material over a T shirt, bunched up and squeezed together with vise grips….then take a couple shots at 6 inches..

    Don’t want to use one of my own hoodies as the holes caused would cause a draft 😦

  8. LLMPapa says:

    I made this a couple of days ago but wanted to wait till I received shipping confirmation before I released it. LOL, this’ll be different!

    • Tzar says:

      Great vid as usual papa

      Off topic
      I get the weird vibe that the killer has killed before

    • blushedbrown says:


      No Way did you just buy one of those rubber upper body thingys. OMG!!
      I can imagine what the next video will be.

      Thanks for the video!!!

      Your right by the way, F**k the cardboard.

    • Rachael says:

      Good God Papa, you are amazing!!!!

    • Xena says:

      Whoa Papa!! You are serious. I anxiously await Pt. 2.

      Oh, by the way, the expert also disregarded that GZ demonstrated shooting with an outstretched arm — but Trayvon leaning over him??????

      • ay2z says:

        do they make double jointed rib-cages? Seems that the chest would remain rigid and flat, not cupped or curved as the killer suggested. Straight is straight, back to front pretty much, isn’t it?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        @LLMPapa: Keep the sound up, we can turn it down on our end, but if it’s too low we can’t amplify it.

    • Dave says:

      Go get ’em LLMPapa! Don’t forget to use Sellier & Bellot hollowpoints and not the FMJ rounds that Mr. Expert probably used. It makes a difference.

    • Jun says:

      The main issues are

      – it was two tshirts and cardboard
      – he had to firmly hold the cardboard tshirt thing in front of the other (bold on the word firmly hold) other the impact from the blast would have caused the cardboard tshirt thing to fly backward, hence causing a different reading (hence it could not have been gravity)
      – The materials are not the same

      You addressed the misalignment and trajectory

      This “expert” Michael Knox is a phony trying to peddle his book

      • Rachael says:


      • ay2z says:

        Don’t know about phoney, but his motives are questionable

      • Jun says:

        Naw he’s a phony and if he ever testified in court, he would get charged with perjury for passing on misinformation in trying to free a defendant with his “expert” lies

        A true expert in forensics would look at everything in it’s whole entirety as a picture and how it relates and correlates with each other

        His claims on that dumb ass show were all over the place and did not even match or line up with the whole picture

        If he is actually being honest, he should call himself an amateur

        First he says that the defendant’s story does not make sense and should have been able to get back to his truck if that was his intent, then later on just buys his story with really flimsy forensic evidence

        He did not even do the forensic tests properly to match what happened

        The clothing material fibers were vastly different, he was not even relying on gravity to do his test, but “holding” one cardboard piece with a t shirt in front of the other

        If anything, his test supports my theory of the defendant gripping the victim by the shirt

    • kllypyn says:


    • groans says:

      OMG – Are you going to buy a KelTec PF-9 and some hollow point bullets, too?

    • ay2z says:

      And the button….. any possible role in the pattern of holes?

      Awaiting the results of your trials… excellent work!

    • Jun says:

      I am fairly sure the state has already conducted these tests

      the trajectory and the misalignment of the bullet holes with the gunshort, plus the fact that Trayvon’s clothes were not baggy, and the type of leaning needed for the clothing to hang exactly to match the forensics, is not possible for it to be explained by gravity

      In conclusion, the Knox guy is a chump

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Super cool!

    • Lito says:

      Get em papa!!!!! I can’t wait

    • aussie says:

      Don’t go shooting into fibreglass. It won’t come out like real, it’ll shatter.

      If you’re planning to shoot, you should be using a body made of ballistics gel. There are recipes all over the internet for how to make your own; basically it’s just very very thick jello.

      If you cover the front of a fibreglass mannequin with a good layer of modelling clay or play dough (which you can also find cheap and easy recipes for) you can use that as a mould to get a good chest shape on the front of the ballistics gel one.

      Here’s one

      • aussie says:

        And here’s some play dough

        You’ll probably need to make double quantities though.

      • LLMPapa says:

        I’m not planning on shooting. I’m planning on drilling a hole in the chest at the precise spot dimensioned in the Autopsy. I plan to cut out the holes, in the clothing, as dimensioned in the FDLE report.

        My primary objective will be to provide a way we can accurately visualize the location of the hole in the sweatshirts in relation to the hole in the chest. I plan to mark the clothing’s holes, on the body, with the clothing both dry AND wet, with the body both erect AND leaning.

        Since this latest “expert” came to the “conclusion” that Trayvon was leaning over Zimmerman based on his explanation of “gravity”, I want to measure just how much a size LARGE sweatshirt supposedly sags off the chest of a normal sized, skinny kid who’s leaning at an approximate 45 degree angle.

        Finally, I plan to insert a 3/8″ dowel into the chest cavity to simulate the bullet’s trajectory, and “hook” the holes in the sweatshirts over the same dowel. I want to SEE how the clothing has to be pulled, stretched, or displaced to accomplish what I believe is a considerable misalignment.

        I already have the sweatshirts, and received shipping confirmation yesterday for the mannequin to arrive prior to the 26th.

        It’s gonna be interesting.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Embeded and waiting for part 2. This is a rather explosive build up to part 2, so that has to come in with a big bang as you well know. From reading the blogs that “expert” is sinking faster than a stone in a pond, next up should blow him out of the water. Good work.

  9. annahkonda says:

    Denial, denial, denial! And it ain’t a river in Egypt.

  10. SupremeVictory says:


    Is it too late for Shellie to make a deal with the state since her request to have charges dismissed was DENIED?

  11. colin black says:

    You have scammed me is refrence to finance.
    She ripped him for money right an left.
    An probably nae definetley never paid for the B M W after she blew it up an wrecked the gearbox.

    Thats about money she has stole .
    Not photo o wee boys or rapeing 12 yr old aholes.

    If it had been there secret he wouldve used the word betrayed my trust .
    Not you SCAMMED me.

    Why is she allowed to allude to wat Travis meant.
    What is she a mind reader.

    Has Nurmi got phycic mixed up with phyco.

    • Xena says:

      The prosecutor in the Arias case is on the ball. The defense had to change his questions numerous times because of the State’s objections. If they would have allowed it, Jodi would have talked an hour about what she thought Travis thought.

      • Tzar says:

        OMG…so I googled the Arias case…Oh man I need to stay away. so much investigation data available, that case will suck me in and not let go.

        • Xena says:


          so much investigation data available, that case will suck me in and not let go.

          It’s simple, really. Jodi first said she knew nothing about Travis’ murder. Then she said she was there, but some Ninja folks killed Travis. Then she said she killed him in self-defense.

          The State has already presented its case and cross-examination should begin before the end of the week.

          Travis was stabbed about 24 times, including several times in the back. His throat was cut so deeply that he was almost decapitated. He was also shot once just above the left eye. Experts believe he was shot after he was dead. His naked body was found in the shower, all washed up.

          • jm says:

            Xena did you notice that Jodi never sheds tears? She blows her nose when she wants to appear upset but never moves her glasses to wipe away tears. She is despicable and her lawyer is so annoying. I hope the prosecution rips her story to shreds.

          • Xena says:


            Xena did you notice that Jodi never sheds tears? She blows her nose when she wants to appear upset but never moves her glasses to wipe away tears.

            Yes, I noticed that. She has been showing up for court with a red nose too. The other day, she had her arms folded in front of her, which is considered a defensive gesture. IMO, she is reliving the anger she felt for Travis, is still angry at him, and probably wishes she could stab him a couple more times.

          • jm says:

            Xena says: “She is reliving the anger she felt for Travis, is still angry at him, and probably wishes she could stab him a couple more times.”

            Wait till the pit bull prosecutor gets hold of her instead of her oh-so-supportive defense attorney. Maybe we will see that kind of anger that she showed when she stabbed Travis 27-29 times, slit his throat from ear to ear and then shot him for good measure.

          • Xena says:

            @jm. Yeah, I think we saw a taste of that anger today after about the fifth side-bar. A commentator on In Session remarked that Jodi looked like she was ready to lose it. Those were not tears of sadness. They were tears of anger.

          • Tzar says:

            lol, take note fogen, see how having multiple stories helps one’s criminal case.

  12. colin black says:

    You all have thoughtful comments says:

    February 19, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    Do any of you use Newsvine? It just cut off.

    Perhaps the owner is doing some pruneing.

  13. truthseeker66 says:

    @MMP, I think it is due to security. During 1st bond hearing fogen did not want Shelly or popZ present

    • lurker says:

      I think that boils down to a combination of paranoia and playing the drama to the hilt.

    • Jun says:

      It was all an act to make it seem the world was against him and he is in so much danger, as that is what he is trying to portray publicly and to the court

      The fact is though, the defendant is a danger to the public with his lies and manipulation, violence, and depraved mind

  14. Trained Observer says:

    So now what … a string of appeals all the way to the Florida Supreme Court to confirm what everyone already knows …. that Corey had jurisdiction, courtesy of the governor’s order, and his follow-up order confirming?

    • racerrodig says:

      Let me guess…..Now SheLie can’t have an “…honest defense..”

      • truthseeker66 says:

        On what grounds does she want it dismissed?

        • racerrodig says:

          Becasue her client might go to jail……which would, as we all know, would be a “Railroading”

        • Xena says:


          On what grounds does she want it dismissed?

          Lack of jurisdiction. Since Corey is SA of a county other than Seminole, ShelLIE’s attorney argued that Corey lacked jurisdiction to charge ShelLIE. However, the charge was signed by Asst. SA Guy (the man who sits beside BDLR at GZ’s hearings) and he signed it by special appointment.

      • Jun says:

        She needs 50 years to prove she was not lying LMAO

        • racerrodig says:

          In our lawsuit against Ocwen & Deutsche Bank, they found out what our attorney stated from day1 ……you cannot beat bank records………….and well………recorded jailhouse phone conversations.

          The astounding parts are the sign that says in part “..hey Fogen, the tape is rolling” and his dad was in the judicial system coupled with FogenPhoolesPhailing a Criminal Justice class. Oh wait…I guess the “How to handle Jailhouse phone calls” chapter was missing from his book.

    • Xena says:

      @Trained Observer. The capias for charging ShelLIE is signed by Asst. State’s Attorney Guy by special appointment. ShelLIE’s attorney simply bought ShelLIE several more months of watching GZ destroy himself before she goes to jail.

  15. Shellie Zimmerman appeared in court this afternoon and sat silent as a judge refused to dismiss the perjury charge against her

  16. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Do any of you use Newsvine? It just cut off.

    • If ur gonna puke?………. call shellie……she was studying to be a puke bucket / bedpan emptier…..

      • racerrodig says:

        Any chance her GPA was akin to FogenPhooles ….0.05 !! Yep, nothing spell success like failing a bed pan course, not to mention “Proper use of Knuckle Bandages”

        • I can just picture home study night…..shellie on the couch with her laptop on her belly and a box of Bon Bons at her side…..while fogen?

          He’s reading Guns & Ammo & Soldier of Fortune for his criminal justice class……

          • racerrodig says:

            “He’s reading Guns & Ammo & Soldier of Fortune for his criminal justice class……” and his subscription to “True Detective” what ?

            Expired ??

      • Rachael says:

        MMP, I don’t mean to be rude and I can see it very wrong for She’lLie to say she was going to be a nurse if she was going for a CNA, but what they do is very hard physical work and sometimes very nasty work that many people would never want to do – turning patients, cleaning their butts, getting them out of bed, feeding them, etc., and it isn’t always pleasant.

        As a nurse, I have to say, a good aide can make or break you, and while I don’t think much of She’lLie from what I know of her, I would never make fun of someone who does patient care as any type of aide or CNA. They do the grunt work most others would never want to do, and I really thank them for what they do.

        • Rachel….I AM NOT dissin’ nurses at all…..

          Xena posted a link to the online school she was “attending”…….they don’t even offer a CNA course……any nursing classes they have are for those that are already nurses to upgrade their credentials.

          Just like fogen told Serrino he had an AA in criminal justice….AND a graduation party. The same with shellies Nursing course.

          My late wife had a GREAT hospice nurse…..someone I’ll will always be thankful for.

      • lurker says:

        Yeah, we’ve seen evidence of Shellie’s nursing skills in those gigantic and wholly inappropriate bandages slapped on the back of George’s head. Some in the press have referred to them as butterfly bandages. Butterflies are small bandages designed to pull the edges of a wound together to promote healing. I grew up with them as my mom was a nurse and that is what she always used to patch us up til dad (a doctor) got home to make a ruling on stitches.

        What Shellie stuck on the back of George’s head were fingertip bandages. They have sort of an “H” shape to them, so that they can fold over the top of a finger, covering the tip.

        • racerrodig says:

          Easy !! Her GPA was 0.05 just like hubbies and she failed the course “Proper use of Knuckle Bandages”

          I have this vision of them as he’s leaving for the reenactment…..

          “Oh honey, let me make those boo boo’s look like your head was about to explode………oh and make sure you wear those sunglasses………..after all, nobody will say, “Hey……wouldn’t they hurt that um……allegedly broken nose”…because we’re so much smarter than everyone”

          “Oh SheLie… think of everything !”

          “Oh poopsie, one day this will all blow over and we’ll be so happy!”

          “Wish me luck !”

          “Good luck…….oh and make sure you tell them every detail like Mark said to”

          “Oh you can count om me………when did I ever screw up”

          • “when did I ever screw up”

            LMAO 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            I can see it now…………

            “Damn it SheLie……those bandages…..that’s what got me convicted………I told you use those small skeeter bite sized ones”

            “I was just trying to help………..”

            “Sure, now I have to go to prison for what, and it’s all your fault..”

            “But, it’s all a big mistake……and I’m so…….”

            “I don’t care, by the way……………um, when do you report to start your sentence ??”

            “Oh sure………bring that up….I lied in court for you and…’

            “It’s all you fault….and that Bernie guy with all those questions…what did you do then, why did you do that, is this the truth, it seems unlikely, there is no possibility, the trajectory of the bullet, Skittles yakkety yak yak………………what does he know”

            “Well Mark pleaded with you not to take the stand..”

            “What the phuck does Osterman know…it’s his fault I bought a gun in the first place”

            “No Mark O’ Mara”

            “Right….that racerrodig guy was right…..Moron O’ Mara….and it’s all his fault nobody believed me”

            “Marks fault….? !! ?”

            “No stupid…….it’s all racerrodigs fault and that whole damn Team Trayvon”

            “How did…”

            “They just didn’t let it go……damn………..”

          • And won’t let it go until there is…….


          • racerrodig says:

            We have a winner(s) !!!!!!!!!!

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Rachael, as a former CNA myself, I know from experience that it is very taxing work that is very hard on the body. this is why I’m suffering with DDD in my lower back but, it was work that I truly enjoyed doing. I learned so much by doing hands on patient care, which was a lot more than anything I could have ever gotten from a text book. it is also a thankless job but, I loved it any way.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Lol, Racer, great metafiction.

    • racerrodig says:

      Since when is rallying around murderers the American way ?? Did I miss that in Sociology ??

      • ladystclaire says:

        If that is the case then, they are very late in rallying behind the Holmes dude because, he murdered way more people than Fogen did. this is only the American way in the minds of those who are supporting this POS only because he murdered an African American kid. these people IMO don’t have even a sentilla of a heart.

        If I were them, I would be very careful of doing the things which they are doing only to hurt this family who has endured a great loss. the Martin/Fulton’s mourning today, could very well be theirs tomorrow.

        • racerrodig says:

          My dear “the Martin/Fulton’s mourning today, could very well be theirs tomorrow.” could not be any more accurate but they’ll never get it………..never !

        • Xena says:


          this is only the American way in the minds of those who are supporting this POS only because he murdered an African American kid. these people IMO don’t have even a sentilla of a heart.

          Yes, that’s one aspect of it. It goes deeper than that, however. The ability to organize to right wrongs instills fear in racial bigots. It happened during the Civil Rights movement. It happened when Barack Obama campaigned for president.

          Think about it. They denigrated Martin Luther King. He was murdered. Abernathy and Jackson stepped to the plate. Jackson is the most popular. Today’s racist bigots denigrate Rev. Jackson now just like racist bigots did to Dr. King in the ’60’s. The year has changed, but their hearts have not.

          I adore Sybrina and Tracy, uplift and pray for them, but neither being skilled public speakers stood in front of thousands, and were televised in front of millions, speaking from their hearts and gathering support for justice. No shame. No embarrassment. No fear. That’s too much pride, too much confidence, too much courage for racist bigots to stomach.

          Bigoted racists shake in their flip flops at the thought that Blacks stood up to the SPD. I don’t know about anyone else, but I hear Papa Zim convey that attitude when he told investigators to “make it go away.” Tracy was suppose to shuffle along and say “Well, that’s the White man for ya. What can I do?” NOT!

          • Lets not forget the uproar when JFK ran for POTUS….Oh the thought of having a Catholic in the White House……

            Pissed off a lot of WASP’s

          • Xena says:


            Oh the thought of having a Catholic in the White House

            JFK: The Pope was taking over America.
            Dr. King: The Negroes are taking over America.
            Roe v. Wade: The judges are taking over America.
            Bill Clinton: Attorneys are taking over America.
            Barack Obama: Blacks have taken over America.

            Quick. Everybody run to WalMart.

          • racerrodig says:

            JFK: The Pope was taking over America.
            Dr. King: The Negroes are taking over America.
            Roe v. Wade: The judges are taking over America.
            Bill Clinton: Attorneys are taking over America.
            Barack Obama: Blacks have taken over America.

            Can I add

            Fogen is taking over Retreat at Twin Lakes hide !

            Quick. Everybody run to WalMart.

          • racerrodig says:

            “…speaking from their hearts and gathering support for justice. No shame. No embarrassment. No fear. That’s too much pride, too much confidence, too much courage for racist bigots to stomach. ”

            You nailed it…..How dare they……incitin all them xxxx’s up….hey Billy Bob…..hurry up, we’ll be late for the Klan meetin’ oh and one of yer house’s tires is flat…..

          • Xena says:


            You nailed it…..How dare they……incitin all them xxxx’s up….hey Billy Bob…..hurry up, we’ll be late for the Klan meetin’ oh and one of yer house’s tires is flat…..

            Now, now. Be merciful. Some folks need 5 months to pay a $265 court fine, so you know they can’t afford to replace the tires on their house.

          • racerrodig says:

            Merciful ?? When they apologize….nay, just acknowledge that Trayvon was not afforded his rights by Fogen…..then I’ll show mercy.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. It was tongue in cheek. Taking 6 mths to pay a $265 fine and the flat tires on the house were suppose to be a clue. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            I knew that !!

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @Ladysaintclaire Holmes has TWO support groups on FB that I know of. Both are rife with conspiracy theory(mostly that it was a black flag event and that he was a pawn of the gov’t < how else would a broke college student get all his gear without notice etc etc) though. Not to mention I found one article about a young woman who is a huge supporter of Holmes and damn near in love with him. Its SICKENING.

        Its almost as bad as the ones who say Sandy Hook never happened. And by that I mean that no kids actually died and that everyone involved were crisis actors, even better that AL was DEAD prior to the shooting.

        • racerrodig says:

          Where do they come from and why are they breathing our air ?

          • rayvenwolf says:

            Race the bigger group(before it went private) for holmes was slightly funny in how they were trying to justify their conspiracy theory, but also frightening. The Sandy Hook stuff – tons of youtube vids if you get curious- is just infuriating. Of course no one has to have proof of everything they say, just speculation.

            As for the why – because culling the stupid is illegal?

          • racerrodig says:

            “As for the why – because culling the stupid is illegal?” Maybe we can find a loophole….I think the word “stupid” may be a place to start.

          • rayvenwolf says:

            Or we could just deny internet service. Can you imagine how board they would be without the net to fuel their madness? I think ‘zines might make a resurgence.

          • racerrodig says:

            Yep…..they’d have to send letters from one KKK chapter to the next. Maybe one enterprising racist would have started a magazine called “Racist Revenge” or “Vigilantes Venom”

      • Jun says:

        There are weirdos, that is the easiest conclusion

        You should read about the “fans” numerous serial killers had

        There was this dude called the Night Stalker, who raped and killed many women, and when he was arrested, numerous women and fans showed up to support “it”

        • racerrodig says:

          That supporting and loving the murderer stuff boggles my mind. Like Ted Bundy proposing as he was playing lawyer at his trial. .
          Well, there was a judge present……might make things move along quickly.

    • PYorck says:

      I don’t think the news is as good as they want to make it sound. They had huge renewed donation drive going on and it was the first time that they talked about their severe finacial problems seriously and openly. Yet they only met their proclaimed targets for a normal month narrowly.

      I just don’t see how they will be able to repeat that month after month.

      • racerrodig says:

        They did not raise that amount….trust me !! It’s a game…Go with a Winner

        • So shellie was in court today without fogen…..just as fogen always shows up sans shellie……One hell of a way for mates to support each other…..or is there something I’m missing?

      • truthseeker66 says:

        I think they will. Fogen is their poster child. He will set precedent that it is ok to kill bl aack kids. IMO I don’t think mom will file indigent…

      • lurker says:

        I’m with you. O’Mara knows even less about fundraising than he does about defense of murder, apparently. Odds are that there were a couple of big donors in that total–and they are not likely to be wells that can be gone back to. They offer a monthly donation option, but I am guessing that even most of his smaller gives are one-timers rather than sustainers.

        Even some of the likely suspects–NRA and such–may have pulled back because the case smells like a loser for tje,/

      • lurker says:

        @ Mountainman–I think it’s like the Prez and Vice Prez–they always travel in separate planes. Or maybe they can only afford one body guard at a time.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @mountain – Shelie hasn’t been to a single court appearance from pretty much the start. If you look at the docket there is always a waiver of appearance filed.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @mountain ignore my last post just saw that SheLie actually did appear. That’s a first.

      • Rachael says:

        I think they had it all the time and were just lying – oh wait, not lying but just telling a story – that they didn’t.

    • Xena says:

      @Rachael. From the website;

      Both Mark and Don have made personal and financial sacrifices to defend this case, and a number of interns and staffers have done so as well. We are all used to doing lots of work without many resources. We consider the donations, which cover the modest costs required to help us keep the day-to-day operation functioning, a Godsend.

      In other words, O’Mara can now pay AIS. In the alternative, he can pay his day-to-day operation expenses.

      Looks like since GZ must stay on the GPS ankle bracelet, that Papa and Mama Zim changed their minds about moving out of state and gave the money to MOM.

      • towerflower says:

        I thought MOM said in one of his replies to AIS that they had to save their remaining funds for fogen’s defense, I bet they don’t pay them off until the trial is over with.

        • Xena says:

          @towerflower. O’Mara can say whatever he wants in his answer to the complaint, but AIS already established in their complaint that they did not agree to work on contingency. There is, however, a good chance that the case will not go to trial before GZ’s trial. GZ will be in prison. ShelLIE will be on her way to prison, and O’Mara will no longer have the trust fund, so AIS had better get hopping.

    • Jun says:

      I think in all of America, he has about 1500 supporters or gang members who try to intimidate witnesses and such

      That is about $20 from each of them

      Whether or not they get the donations, they will be all over the media, claiming the media is being unfair LOL

      I think Omara should worry more about his lawsuit with AIS because he is going to lose his car or house, since neither Fogenhats or Shellie can pay off the debt

      • towerflower says:

        He won’t lose the house here in Florida, protected from lawsuits. Went over that with an insurance agent once when discussing what was needed for coverage and protection from lawsuits. That is one of the reasons OJ moved here from California and for awhile M.Jackson was looking for a home near Orlando.

      • Jun says:

        Well he better keep that $30,000 so he does not because fat chance the AIS get their money from the defendant or his lying wife

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      For some reason I sincerely doubt they’re telling the truth. Of course, I can believe that their followers are too dense to realize that no number of experts can help them. They cannot unsort and unring the bells of guilt that GZ has rung in his convoluted efforts to use self serving utterances as cover for his criminal activity. It does not matter, according to the laws, that he did not know he was engaging in criminal activity, all that matters is that he did. Not only did he engage in criminal activity, he also admits it and gives false narratives in failed attempts to explain it away. Thus confirming his crimes, while failing to remove their criminal effect.

      For one simple example: He should have been able to return to his truck, when he agreed with the NeN operator that he need not follow the subject. This is because he knows the law, or is supposed to, he has taken pains to learn it, and it is material which he was required to know.

      Thus, if he did not learn it, or otherwise did not know the law, or if he forgot it, he does not deserve the forgiveness that a true lay person should get. Because if he could not grasp the seriousness of the codes, statues and rules that were designed to govern his conduct, he should have abandoned all rights, privileges, posts and missions that were covered by these instructions.

  17. Lonnie Starr says:

    This is a teachable moment, otherwise, it matters not which way the defendant goes, because the SP will be there to meet him with an overwhelming supply of incriminating, rebuttal and impugning materials. Much of it fashioned by no one other than the defendant himself, in a foolish effort to further and forward a self serving story of innocence that he has continued to attempt to contrive.

    But, before GZ puts one word before a judge or jury in this case, the one question he has not answered and requires an immediate answer is: What was GZ doing, and/or what had GZ done, that would have indicated to anyone he showed an interest in, that he was not either a criminal or a threat???

    GZ’s narrative shows that he knew that Trayvon knew, that GZ was following him.

    So, GZ has now to explain to us and everyone else, why Trayvon should not have thought of GZ as a potential threat. It is not sufficient that in GZ’s mind Trayvon was a suspect and GZ was the NW’er. Because if GZ cannot demonstrate how he advertised this idea, then there is no way that any stranger, would not see his actions as a serious threat. It is a crime to take such actions, in a public place, that would cause another person or persons to fear for their safety. One cannot cause others to fear for their safety, and still claim to be acting within the law and/or exercising any rights that they have.

    GZ is attempting, by saying “I was just going in the same direction as he was”, to pretend that if Trayvon happened to be scared, it was an unintended accident, borne of misinterpreting exactly what GZ was really doing.

    GZ is trying to say that he was viciously attacked, while he was merely attempting to return to his truck. Unfortunately for GZ, the law doesn’t see it this way. Once you cause someone to fear for their life, by engaging in strange and/or threatening actions, you cannot simply consider the effects “turned off” by some unilateral mental attempt to cease and desist. Because actions that cannot be detected, because they are not communicated, cannot be allowed or permitted to have any bearing at all, on the situation. He cannot cause the threat he represented to go away, simply because he mentally flips a switch inside his own head.

    So, to be lawful, GZ needs to show that he somehow published that he was not a criminal and/or that he was not a serious threat.

    GZ seems to feel that, when he decides to follow some one, they should immediately stop and wait for the police to arrive. But what he doesn’t tell anyone is, why? Why should they not fear being followed by a stranger with no insignia, no uniform, no badges, patches or other sign, to show that he is not a person with criminal intentions?

    GZ’s failure to identify himself, is probable cause of criminal intent! Most especially since the law says it is conduct that he is prohibited from committing. Because without any exchange of information to allay the fears of the person he pursued, he is engaging in the crime of stalking. Since he is committing a crime, he has no claim to SYG or SD protections.

    • racerrodig says:

      Very well said, when I grow up, I wanna be just like you !!

      Add to that the fact that at that time what did Fogen look like ?? A Neo Nazi Skinhead maybe ??

      • An Afro / Peruvian Neo Nazi Skinhead at that……My god what is this world coming to……..Afro / Peruvian nazi’s?

      • ay2z says:

        He will need to get his head shaved again for trial, as MOM said he wanted him to look as he did the night he followed and killed Trayvon. MOM said they needed delay of the trial to get his weight down because he no longer looked like he did a year ago, one would assume he would want to have a shave and go-T trim to replicate the skinhead look also.

        Fair is fair.

        A lesson in replicating the look, guns and all.

        • Now U wint an did it…..

          I present to Ya’ll……..Ozzy Fudd….The Wabbit Slayer

        • racerrodig says:

          So he needs to look like the Neo Nazi Afro – Peruvian Skin Head he was that night. And I guess he thinks having a jury of his peers means he’ll have 6 Neo Nazi Skin Head Afro – Peruvian Racist Gun Toting Morons in the box.

          No fooling…..I’d bet the farm he thinks a jury of his peers means just that……guys who say fucking coons as a matter of course, that at least 4 of them mentally torture co-workers with Jeff Dunham routines…..3 own a Kel-Tek, one owns a Glock and one has a Desert Eagle. All were mugged by a 17 year old Skittle bearing Black Dynamite Slim.

          • He thinks that?….he is insane…

            BTW…U do know your firearms….fired a .50 Desert Eagle……the first shot actually numbed my hands….2 handed grip also….makes Dirty Harry’s 44. look like a pea shooter…..don’t own one……don’t want one….

          • racerrodig says:

            I know a bit…raised by a cop. I fired a 50 Eagle……whoooo dogie.

            That is the text book definition of Hand Cannon….not to mention loud. Where are they gonna find a jury of his peers? Come on Fogen get with the program.

          • Remember the Thompson Center “Contender” series?

          • racerrodig says:

            Very vaguely….I’ll look it up.

    • Lonnie, I hope you make that comment on HP. Some need to read it !

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I don’t do that because self promotion looks bad, is self serving and self aggrandizing. If others are impressed by what I say, let others trumpet it. So, please feel free to collect and disseminate any of my posts that interest you. Otherwise let them pass for unremarkable missives that deserve no further attention.

        I judge the value of my postings by what they empower and inspire others to do with them.

    • elcymoo says:

      Either this must have finally occurred to Z. or it was pointed out to him by O’Mara, since he changed his account from ‘he’s running’ to ‘he was just skipping’ by the time he appeared on Hannity’s show.

    • Rachael says:

      This reminds me of my proximate cause for which the “but for test” is used.

      An act (such as following, not identifying, etc.) from which an injury results as a natural, direct, uninterrupted consequence and without which the injury would not have occurred.

      And reasonably foreseeable.

      I can’t remember all what I posted, but you get the idea. I’ll see if I can find it.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Boy do I ever get the idea, because I’m pretty sure that the 14 hour course the SPD says they gave GZ, included all of this information. Hardly a wonder that they now want to conceal that from the public, because it shows that the SPD was not, in fact, properly supervising it’s NW program. I’m sure that the SPD officer in charge, could have run a regular check to see what gun permits his/her NW’er’s had or were applying for, so that they could be given special admonishments. The SPD NW officer in charge, was not independently checking to see if any NW’er’s were patrolling, so that they could be admonished not to. Nor was he/she looking for signs of over zealousness which could in the NW book and perceptions, put the neighborhood in danger.

        Nor does the National Sheriffs Association, which offers management instructions for NW programs, require enrollment as a way to at least obtain assurance that it’s rules will be followed. Their site and their offers trumpet the fact that a mismanaged NW is a potential source of great danger to the residents of any community, yet it offers no thread of attempt to ensure proper managed NW programs and to differentiate those properly managed from those which are not.

        Can they escape being held liable? No they cannot! They may think that because there are unregistered NW programs out there, they cannot be held responsible for their actions. That is not true, because they are the source and the support for the formation of NW programs, whether registered or not! Because they do not require registration, and cannot therefore ensure proper observance of the rules they’ve promulgated, they are an advocacy group without prohibition.

        Had they required registration and showings of compliance, then, if they were sued, they could show that they could be excused from liability for various reasons. As a pure advocacy only group, they can be sued for their “advocacy without restraint”. For, without sanction, ad hoc NW groups, could not claim to be properly managed or sanctioned by any authoritative source. While ad hoc groups can and do claim to be inspired by the NSA advocacy group.

    • esentrick says:

      You stated that very well Lonnie

  18. colin black says:

    racerrodig says:

    February 19, 2013 at 12:13 am

    “George’s case is progressing. The presiding judge has refused to grant the defense time to present a thorough, honest defense.”

    That’s nothing short of sickening. Is that any kind of contempt, witness tampering or such. To make up a lie as bold faced as that is just pathetic.


    Racerrodig this statement is moot/invalid/ not applicable to foggen or he duhfence team……………………………………………………………………………………….Has refused to grant the defence time to present a thourgh……………. HONEST defence…….The band of fools foggen laughingly refered to as his defence team never were going to present an HONEST defence.
    They could give them a trillion google graham years an that would not suffice for them to present an HONEST defence,

    Because everyone knows includeing foggen that you cannot defend the indefendable.
    There is no possable defence honest or otherwise.
    Honest injected into fogggens mouth would be.
    Im the only asshole I stalked an menaced this kid an took great enjoyment over.
    Asserting power over this poor wee kid as Im a P O S with zilch athourity or respect in real life.
    So for 15 minutes I was like freakin Rambo an was able to frighten dominaye terriify actualy look into another humanss eyes an with godlike power tell him he was going to DIE.
    An then shoot him one time.

    An I freaking loved it the poer control an most of all the terror of realiseation in that kids eyes as he knew he was about to die.

    Best feeling ever an being able to lie an walk away with a good kill an pat on the back was amazeing.
    An then I open a support me finance page an earn a freakin fortune for murderin a kid.
    Shoulda donr this years ago.

    Now thats the honest truth per foggens minset.
    An somehow I dont think it would go down well re an HONEST defence.

    The only kind of defence possable to him is disshonest.

  19. Rachael says:

    Talk about lying:

    “Sims says his client is a nursing student and nearly done with her course work.”

    • Read the story earlier……

      One thing that’s omitted is what type of nursing shellie was studying?…….

      We could have anything between bed pan emptier (Nurses aid) to an RN……..It would be interesting to know EXACTLY what type of nursing she was studying?

      Also she was taking the course ONLINE

      • Xena says:

        @MMPat. There’s a payment to the school on the credit union’s report. I checked the school out. There are no degrees in nursing unless the student is already a nurse and wants continuous education in a specialty. The other courses are in the lines of medical billing and such.

      • Trained Observer says:

        If Mrs. Fogen, the faux nursey-poo student, took out a student loan at the school, the clock starts ticking when she completes her studies or withdraws, or flunks out. Those private school loans are not dischargable in bankruptcy. Wonder if defense fund money went toward her schooling? If not, the Fogen debt may be mounting.

      • groans says:

        @Xena – Good work. It always sounded fishy to me. So … touting her as a “nursing student” is apparently just one more lie. No surprise there.

        But I’m disgusted that her attorney would perpetuate the lie, too. They must have very low ethical standards in the Florida and local bars in Florida.

        • This could be due to the fact that Florida is very low…..merely inches above the rotting vegetation in the swamps….

        • Xena says:


          But I’m disgusted that her attorney would perpetuate the lie, too.

          Chances are that her lawyer took her at her word. Not making excuses, but many lawyers do not take time to confirm personal info that their clients give to them. Well, just think of O’Mara who believed that GZ didn’t have money to pay bond and had turned over his only passport.

      • pat deadder says:

        Holy shit I wouldn’t even let her empty my bedpan.

        • Xena says:

          If ShelLIE is convicted, she won’t be able to get a job emptying bed pans. The crime she is charged with is very serious as it concerns employers because it was a lie about money. That infers that ShelLIE is capable of theft, dishonesty, fraud, and collusion with thieves and accused murderers.

          • racerrodig says:

            Her lawyer said it’s obvious she’s innocent and her case is getting stronger ?? A hahahahahahahahaha Guess he went to the Moron O’ Mara school of Bullshit.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. SheLIE’s attorney said that “she” is getting stronger — not her case. He said that she has matured. And yes, he did say that he believes she is innocent AFTER saying that he doesn’t know what happened or didn’t know what happened in the beginning or something along those lines. He thinks it about the questions she was asked. He should watch the video of that bond hearing.

            ShelLIE lied about her knowledge of the money. She lied about the amount of money that GZ had, and she lied about how much money she had. I think she is charged with 3 counts of perjury.

          • racerrodig says:

            I was sure he said her case was getting stronger and she was getting bigger…..So she’s getting stronger…..Damn right with Fogen abusing her like he does, hell, she had no choice.

            I laughed when he said I haven’t been in this from the beginning but hell, I hang out with RZ Jr so it’s ok for me to speak as if I know everything and was actually there.

          • Xena says:


            I laughed when he said I haven’t been in this from the beginning but hell, I hang out with RZ Jr so it’s ok for me to speak as if I know everything and was actually there.

            Delay, delay, delay, look for a technicality, and when the motion to dismiss is denied, then go back and look at the evidence against his client — then tell her how much her defense will cost. LOL!!!!

          • racerrodig says:

            Yep….”Your honor, since I haven’t been here from the start, I’d like to have a continuance so I can find out what the facts are. Actually, why don’t we let it go, it’s her first time and hey…….finding out what happened, well……………. that’s such a hassle”

          • jm says:

            Xena says: “That infers that ShelLIE is capable of theft, dishonesty, fraud, and collusion with thieves and accused murderers.”

            ShelLIE is obviously capable of theft, dishonesty, fraud and collusion with thieves and accused murderers. If she gets off on a technicality I will totally lose faith in the justice system. She wanted to live the “good life” based on donations from racists that she hid from the court system. From her court appearance, she seems not at all contrite and a very good match for her lying husband and the rest of the Zimmerman KKKlan.

          • Xena says:


            From her court appearance, she seems not at all contrite and a very good match for her lying husband and the rest of the Zimmerman KKKlan.

            Yeah, but at least she put on blush in a manner to slim her cheek bones. LOL!!!!

    • Rachael says:

      Exactly my point. He’s lying.

      • roderick2012 says:

        What a surprise, Rachael. A lying lawyer representing a lying client?

        Say it ain’t so. LOL

        • racerrodig says:

          Oh hell, they’re not lying, we just don’t understand the law. Where’s RZ Jr, he’ll explain it. Remember it’s not about what really happened, it’s about “Reasonable Doubt” which as we all know is a way of saying “He’s as guilty as sin, where’s that chapter on technicalities:

  20. onlyiamunitron says:

    If they were to ask me if I’d formed “an” opinion about the case, I could truthfully answer no.

    If they were smart enough to ask if I’d formed about 13 different ones each day for the past several months, though…


  21. LLMPapa says:

    Don’t know if this means anything one way or the other, but it strikes me a little odd….

    • Mary Davis says:

      @ Professor. Please e-mail me to confirm that you got my donation. Thank You

    • ay2z says:

      Yes, a bullet without a roadmap. What would cause a bullet to create a path like a beetle under tree bark before passing into the white shirt material? How would fabric have been oriented in relation to the bullet’s path to produce that? Where was the button placed and where was the pin? Would that cause deflection of a hollow point at close or intermediate range? Was the fabric drawn out from or pushed towards the path of the bullet, or possibly both? Could the scenario of the fabric hanging loose in front of the wearer, with only gravity pulling it downwards, as the ‘expert’ states as ‘fact’?

      Always interesting observations, LLMPapa. You make people think.

      • ay2z says:

        Could the scenario of the fabric hanging loose in front of the wearer, with only gravity pulling it downwards, as the ‘expert’ states as ‘fact’ explain this? And, did the ‘expert’ retired police officer, detail how this might have happened in his book?

        We know that one contributor did buy the book, and has time while watching laundry fabrics tumble in the dryer, to contemplate just this bullet path problem. (hint…. hint…) There may be no better illustration to to spark the imagination of how various fabric types drape, fold, fall and otherwise move, under influence of gravity and all the while, with varying degrees of moisture, from soaked to completely dry.

        BettyKath?? Take the stage… what did your reading trip to the laundry reveal?

      • bettykath says:

        The topic was not addressed in the book.

        “L” shaped holes are not unusual, especially in knits. Catch a shirt on a nail and that’s the kind of hole you’d get. The nail is holding the shirt and you pull away. A dog jumping on you can create this kind of hold with her/his nail. I don’t know if holding the shirt or not would make a difference. Good science project for a middle school or high school student. Not with bullets but maybe with darts or some other projectile.

        • “Not with bullets but maybe with darts or some other projectile.”

          The test could only be considered accurate if the projectile were the same shape and weight….and traveling at the same speed as the bullet……any suggestions?

      • roderick2012 says:

        Could the scenario of the fabric hanging loose in front of the wearer, with only gravity pulling it downwards, as the ‘expert’ states as ‘fact’?

        I don’t believe you could get a three inch displacement between the bullet holes in the hoodie and t-shirt and the entry just from gravity (Trayvon lying on top of George).

        The tightness(tauntness) of the shirt against Trayvon’s body could not have been accomplished if his shirt here hanging off his body. Also I thought that the bullet holes in Trayvon’s clothing were to the left of the entry wound while the bullet holes entering Trayvon’s hoodie and shirt if he were lying on top of George would not have been displaced either to the right or left just a gap between the bullet holes in the shirts and the entry wound.

      • bettykath says:


        you’re absolutely right for trial evidence and I wouldn’t recommend it be done by students. But just to see how the fabric would be affected when hit by a round-nosed projectile, it would make an interesting science project for a budding forensic scientist.

      • bettykath says:

        Go for it. It’s bound to warm up sometime.

        fwiw, The book was fair in laying out the situation, but when it came time to look at the evidence, his conclusions, except for the missing minutes (a big except) were all about supporting the defendant’s story. Much of it was superficial. He dismisses all witnesses but the one claiming Trayvon was on top hitting MMA style. He says that no one else saw what actually happened or they changed their stories (as if John didn’t refute is own MMA statement). He does provide footnotes showing inconsistencies with the defendant’s story/ies but you have to go to the back of the book to read them. They are not presented as if they are important.

        I’m left with the question of what the crime scene analyst does when there are conflicting scenarios? Well, members of the jury, it could have happened this way, but otoh, it could have happened that way? I guess he picks the way that helps the one paying his bill and it’s left up to the attorney doing the cross examination to get him to tell the other scenario. Maybe that’s what he was doing by putting one story in the body and the story to come out cross examination in the notes.

        I found the book to be a waste of $10 except for satisfying my curiosity. Better analysis has been done on here.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Or fabric was gathered in the grasp of shooter so that bullet passed through more than one point at once.

      • ay2z says:

        yes, but only a grasp and the folds that would cause? Would that explain this continuous ‘U’ shaped path?

        Seems there’s something else that has caused what is presumably a direct shot into the victim’s chest that is a balling up of fabric layers.

        • Agreed…..and passing thru the fabric would not have deformed the bullet at all.

        • Also remember fogens comment about being careful not to shoot his left hand?……..One could imply that for fogen to say that, his left hand must have been somewhere near the muzzle of the weapon.

          • racerrodig says:

            Is it possible that the bullet entered there as the handful of shirt Fogen had was at a perpendicular angle. That is as he’s pulling on the garments they are bulled out and at an angle, the bullet, traveling supersonic “pushes” and enters. If you look at the hole while pulling on the shirt, the hole looks round, but at an angle it’s not.

          • Xena says:


            One could imply that for fogen to say that, his left hand must have been somewhere near the muzzle of the weapon.

            GOOD CATCH!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      LLMPapa, how brilliant of you to noticed this!

      I completely missed it.

  22. LLMPapa says:

    This “rolled up” proposition of O’Mara strikes me much the same as his laughable whining to Judge Lester, at the second bond hearing, trying to get the court to let him put George on the stand to espouse his “truthies” but not let BDLR cross examine him.

    He has no shot at a SYG or Self Defense hearing without his client getting on the stand and knows Bernie will destroy him and his lies on cross.

    • Xena says:

      @LLMPapa. O’Mara MUST do everything he can to keep GZ off the stand, and he knows it. The only time that GZ has taken the stand at his first bond hearing, he contradicted himself and used convenient forgetfulness.

      From his NEN call, to his jailhouse calls with ShelLIE, to his body language on the witness stand, GZ likes giving directions but does not like being questioned, especially by someone who he knows there is no opportunity to impress.

      • LLMPapa says:

        I don’t get into the “psycho babble” of this case, because I really don;t give a crap about the “why” or the killer’s psychological makeup, but from what I’ve seen I don’t think there’s a chance in hell O’Mara will be able to keep his client off the stand.

        I would hope O’Mara was against the notion of that gig on The Hannity Show a few months back, but seems this defendant was convinced his shuck and jive was just the ticket for a national audience performance.

        I just can’t see him being willing to sit on the sidelines at the biggest stage his life has ever seen.

        • Xena says:


          …but from what I’ve seen I don’t think there’s a chance in hell O’Mara will be able to keep his client off the stand.

          You might be right. Remember at his second bond hearing that he did not want to be cross-examined but before a jury with an audience, GZ might want the spotlight.

        • racerrodig says:

          “I just can’t see him being willing to sit on the sidelines at the biggest stage his life has ever seen”

          .”…you got it …..homie…” He will look at this like the performance of the ages….complete with a pyrotechnics filled encore….all for ME

          He’s probably thinking “..Scott Peterson’s got nothing on me….” other than these facts

          Scott said “……where’s my wife Laci, she’s pregnant ya know..”
          Scott and Co. went on TV asking for help finding her.
          Scott said “…..kill her, hell I loved her, I’d never…”

          And Scott’s on Death Row Fogen……

          What on God’s green earth prevents him from accepting the hard core fact that he’s not selling any BS to the public. Is his posse that good and convincing him otherwise ? Like you I don’t get into the psycho babble stuff…..

          Everything he did, he did consciously….with a malicious intent.

          • Peterson should be deprived of oxygen for an hour or so…..worthless lyin’ POS

            Death Row?….California?……he’ll die of old age….

            The sad part is?……..He’s getting love letters and proposals from women…..

          • racerrodig says:

            For whatever reason, some women love their bad boys. Years when I managed a speed shop they hired a hard core biker, and his girlfriend looked exactly like Erika Eleniak, maybe better !

            Only an hour ?? You going soft on us ?? Killing an unborn child and his wife for the likes of Amber Frey……Loved his family so much he threw them from his boat.

          • Xena says:

            @MMPat. Wasn’t Peterson tried in Illinois? Illinois repealed the death penalty in 2011.

        • Papa,

          I agree.

          Plus, a defendant has a right to testify regardless of his lawyer’s advice.

          As a practical matter, this defendant cannot win unless he testifies (which is true in most self-defense cases), but he cannot win if he does testify because the physical and forensic evidence will not support what he says and the prosecutor will destroy his credibility by confronting him with all of his conflicting and inconsistent statements.

          A classical example of damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Agreed, LLMPapa. Showboater Fogen won’t miss an opportunity to explain it all away to the world — likely with yet another brainless version. “I didn’t know he was so young … I didn’t know he wasn’t on drugs or sumpem … I didn’t even know he was bla-ack.”

  23. SpecialladyT says:

    follow ~

  24. elcymoo says:

    Attorneys for George Zimmerman depose Serino, lead SPD investigator in Trayvon Martin case,0,7234098.story

  25. tonydphotog says:

    Off topic, but I read an update, on, about fogen’s parents out of the state looking for a future secure residence. They mention they just recently returned to Florida, and unfortunately their search was unsuccessful. My impression is they flew out of the country, but I could be wrong. Anyone know if they flew anywhere recently?

    • Jun says:

      I do not feel where they go matters, to be honest

      His father was not there at the incident so anything he testifies about the incident is hearsay

      All he can do is give character evidence for trial

      • tonydphotog says:

        I agree with you, I was just wondering if they were trying to find a place for Fogen, if he decides to flee the country.

      • Jun says:

        Well they have a website, so they can easily be found with the equipment the FBI and Homeland Security and various other agencies have

      • abbyj says:

        @Jun, Your point is well taken, especially in view of his father (and brother’s) media tour immediately after the murder. From the lengthy interviews Rbt.Sr. gave, one would assume that he was standing just inches from the alleged “confrontation” at the time it occurred. His play-by-play narration of the plight of his son was so uncomfortably detailed that Rbt.Sr. account almost lapsed into first person, save for the word “he” in regard to his son, George [nearly verbatim paraphrasing]:

        “He then thought to himself, ‘I have to be sure that my head isn’t smashed against the concrete any further, and so I must find a way to wiggle onto the grass,’ and then George wiggled onto the grass, all the time screaming for help . . . .”

        Rbt.Sr. completely lost sight of the fact that he was NOT present at the scene of the murder, to the extent that it appeared he had himself constructed the false narrative. Then, The Zimmerman Disinformation Tour, Part 2 began, when Rbt.Jr. went out on the circuit, and he clung to the father’s narrative almost word for word as well.

        It’s just refreshing to have you state outright, Jun, that “his father was not there.” The family has made an effort to obfuscate that reality, IMO.

        • racerrodig says:

          “all the time screaming for help . . . .” And then the 911 calls were released with the evidence and that dream ended !!

          I hope that Bernie confronts Fogen and whoever else he can with the calls and “…, it was stated Fogen was screaming for help as you stated “..all the time…”………and can you define the word “all” for us”

      • Puck says:


        ““He then thought to himself, ‘I have to be sure that my head isn’t smashed against the concrete any further, and so I must find a way to wiggle onto the grass,’ and then George wiggled onto the grass, all the time screaming for help . . . .””

        I figure this is because they all got together that night (didn’t they?) to figure out how to account for why GZ got out of his car (to find an address), why he ended up at the T (because he couldn’t remember the name of TTL so he had to go all the way to RVC), why the cuts on his head were higher up (because he shimmied down onto the grass, and in the walk-through GZ does say only the top third of his head was on the concrete – I never see people bring this up – which would ‘explain’ why there were no cuts further down on his head), the type of assault (head bashing more likely to lead to serious injury or death than being beaten up), and so on. So by that point RZ Sr. “knew” the story that GZ would be going with.

    • Rachael says:

      Out of the country? Hmmm, that would be interesting.

    • ladystclaire says:

      They were probably looking for a secure residence for their murdering off spring. this is why Fogen wanted his gps removed because, he intends to make a run for it with the help of his attorney as well as his family. these people are all lying about receiving death threats and they know it.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Occurs to me, maybe the uptick in donations to Fogen’s fund are just transfers from Gladys and Robert.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I doubt it. The Fogenites are rallying ’round. You can see them talking about donating at various watering holes.

    • aussie says:

      PapaZim flew somewhere a while back….. the security company had to guard him on his way to the airport.

  26. Mary Davis says:

    @ Professor. Please check your e-mail.

  27. groans says:

    My first reaction to O’Mara’s “rolling-up” suggestion was the it is essentially a waiver of any immunity hearing, and should be treated as such.

    My second reaction was:
    Talk about putting the cart before the BULL#### !!

    The defense hasn’t even formally REQUESTED an immunity hearing, or filed any Motion to Dismiss the charges! O’Mara first needs to file such a request or motion with the court, and THEN there could be something to discuss.

    In my view, his main strategy is apparently (by necessity) to muddy everything in this case and thereby present a contorted and artificially complicated to the court and the jury. And if he could muddle an immunity hearing together with a trial, he could maximize the impact of that strategy. That is, both would end up sloppier and fuzzier — as would the issues and arguments on appeal.

    I have a hard time believing that either BDLR or Judge Nelson will go along with this “rolling-up” plan. Besides the professor’s critical point that the statute may not allow it, it would also run a very high risk of messing up THEIR TRIAL and any subsequent appeal.

    Media reports said that the judge said she “would consider” the proposal. But, remember, long ago in open court she assured the defense that she’d “consider any motions” they bring to her court. But that does NOT mean she’ll grant them.

    • YES!! she said that when west and omar kept whining, incessantly, over the mysterious subpoenas and they just couldn’t accept NO for the 3rd time!!
      she said she would *Consider any* motion they made, she didn’t say they would be successful! lolol

  28. aussie says:

    The defence has their own copy, they can find and pay their own experts to analyse them.

    So now they don’ know what the prosecution’s found out frm them. Except didn’t Bernie say something about 2 voices? just in passing? just to put the wind up O”Mara?

    • kimmi says:

      Yes, BDLR did in fact mention 2 voices on the NEN call at one of the hearings.

      • FactsFirst says:

        speaking of nen calls, remember when GZ changed his mind on the nen call and said to have the officer call him? And remember when GZ told Hannity that he walked over to the RVC to meet an officer he had called? Well, I ran across GZ’s police call history, (pg 46) and I noticed that on 2/26/2012 at 19:17:17pm, it has an event that looks like GZ DID call TSmith… I need somebody to PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong…… and take notice to the terminal ID column, notice that whenever TSmith is involved that colum reads 4027… Notice that TSmith responded to GZ’s NEN calls on 1/29/2012, 2/02/2012, and 2/26/2012 too…. Coinkydink? Maybe, but it sure is making me think alot….. HELP!

      • Tzar says:

        someone please answer factfirst

      • FactsFirst says:

        opps! thats “19:17:11pm” on 2/26/2012..

  29. Jun says:

    I was wondering if the 911 scream tape and NEN call tape analysis and enhancement, falls under work product?

  30. annahkonda says:

    The Zimmerman camp,collectively, are in a profound state of denial.

  31. ay2z says:

    Tomorrow, 1:30 PM hearing, ocnfirmed by Orlando Sentinel’s article tonight.

    “Shellie Zimmerman returns to court

    Tuesday Shellie Zimmerman will be in court, trying to have her case dismissed. Her attorney, Kelly B. Sims, contends that Corey had no right to charge her.”

  32. bettykath says:

    I posted this on the previous thread.

    Thank you. More questions.

    The definition is somewhat different for SYG v traditional self-defense, right? So does that have to be specified before the hearing or is the testimony given and then it’s decided which one applies, if either? If SYG, there is no exposure to a wrongful death lawsuit. If it is traditional self-defense it is? Is this correct? If so, then it makes a difference which is claimed or shown.

    Re: the 45 days means that what MOM has requested is contrary to the statute?

  33. Judy75201 says:

    Are there any legal protections against a claim of a tainted jury due to publicity? This case is disturbing to me:

    • Jun says:

      I dont think Fogenhats has a good case for that considering his brother went on media tours spouting nonsense since the murder took place, so it can be argued he brought a lot of the media attention on himself

      The Trayvon team barely went on the media and most of it spread around due to the kindness of people’s hearts, through social media

    • esentrick says:

      Judy I wonder the same thing.

      Professor could you explain, when you have a chance, Estes vs. Texas, 1965 in which the Supreme Court ruled that media coverage by its nature may taint potential jurors and damage a defendant’s ability to receive a fair trial? and how would Chandler v. Florida apply?

    • To understand this decision, you only need to read this:

      “The Alabama appeals court ruled that the trial judge should have allowed Luong’s attorneys to individually question jurors about their knowledge of the case before the trial. The appeals judges said 139 out of 156 prospective jurors who completed questionnaires for jury selection said they had heard about the case – and 38 of those said they had heard Luong confessed or tried to plead guilty.

      The court’s decision said all 12 jurors who convicted Luong had heard of or read about the case. It took them only 40 minutes of deliberating to convict Luong in March 2009.

      The appeals court ruled the trial judge also erred by refusing to grant Luong’s defense team $7,500 to travel to Vietnam to investigate his childhood and by allowing a videotape to be show to the jury in which a police investigator simulated the crime by tossing four sandbags off the bridge.”

      Notice that Judge Nelson has decided to allow individual voir dire during jury selection.

      • lurker says:

        I grew up in Cleveland under the shadow of the Sam Shepherd case–notable in journalism circles and leading to the use of the word “alleged” in conjunction with nearly everything. One of the noted decisions, as I recall, was a change of venue due to the Cleveland Plain Dealer having published headlines for weeks proclaiming Shepherd’s guilt.

        I am wondering–in these days of internet access and some really fuzzy edges to journalism (with folks like Breitbart and

        and Limbaugh being able to pose as journalists ((without the usual ethical constraints)–what sorts of remedies are possible in response to jury tainting?

      • Kinda sorta implies that she is not going to grant imunity doesn’t it?

        • racerrodig says:

          Funny you mention that !!!!!! Kinda a subliminal message like…

          Mr. O’ Mara…………..this could take a loooooooooooooong time and you need to be prepared.

          What’s funny is that my friend in FL who follows these things told me that this is the 1st time he’s seen a jury selection order before a SYG hearing…….Hmmmmmm how obvious could this message be. Why…..well obviously, it would waste thousands of peoples time needlessly now.

          I think under “Last Laugh” is a picture of “Team Trayvon”

          Not looking like and “Get of of Jail Free” cards will be included in this game.

          • Too bad Monopoly doesn’t have a piece in the shape of a turd… 😦

          • racerrodig says:

            Hmmmmmm !! Funny you mention that !!

            How about a board game based on all of the crap and lies.

            Every avenue winds up in jail

            No get out of Jail card at all

            There are “Immunity” cards (these are blank)

            A roll of the dice on every 5th turn determines how many dollars is a donation to his defense fund

            There is a Fogen piece shaped like a lumped turd (has a blinking GPS indicator light)

            There is a stack of “FogenPhoolePhantasy” cards each with a lie he has said

            There is a stack of “FogenPhoolePhamilyPhantasy” cards each with a family members lie

            There is a stack of “FogenPhoolePhriendsPhantasy” cards each with a “friends” lie

            There are “Blunder” cards each with a Sanford police issue

            There are “Federal Surprise” cards each with an action the Feds could take

            There are “FDLE” cards each with a piece of evidence

            There are “Setback” cards each with a problem Fogen has encountered

            There are “LLMPapa Video” cards, each with a major myth buster

            There are “Witness” cards each with damning evidence.

            There are Trayvon Family cards each with something his family has said or done. These have the most class & dignity and have the most weight.

            So feel free to add to this….no matter, all avenues lead to “JAIL”

          • He may not pass go…….he is collecting 2 cents, one donation at a time…….

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m sorry….it was my printers error. The “Immunity” cards actually say “DE – NIED” my bad.

        • Not quite, because the trial date is approaching and arrangements have to be made well in advance to assure that enough people are summoned for jury service. The Court also has to begin the process of tailoring a jury questionnaire to facilitate picking a jury. At the hearing last Thursday, Judge Nelson told the lawyers to start working on a questionnaire.

          Also, don’t forget that the SYG statute requires the defense to request an immunity hearing, which MOM did not do until last week. Judge Nelson told him before Christmas that, if he wants to have an immunity hearing, the statute requires her to schedule it no later than 45 days before the trial date. I suspect the legislators thought defense counsel would request immunity hearings early in their cases to potentially resolve them expeditiously without expending all of the time, effort and money to prepare for and try a case.

          MOM could have requested a hearing several months ago, but he failed to do so, and that is why discussions regarding the trial are taking place before the immunity hearing.

  34. bettykath says:

    I agree that it’s a good idea to waive the immunity hearing. Apart from the question of publicity, with which I agree, MOM has said that he’s not going to be ready by April and that they can’t afford experts for two appearances. The best chances that I can see is to spend the time until June putting together the best case possible for self defense. If the defendant will agree.

    I have to wonder if the defendant is totally oblivious to the evidence against him. The stuff that he knows but hasn’t seen in the evidence dumps doesn’t mean that the prosecutor doesn’t know too. I hope MOM has explained to him that the prosecutor doesn’t have turn over everything, e.g. their analysis of the crime scene and the forensics.

    • Jun says:

      It is rather difficult to put on a case of something that never occurred, ie the claim of self defense

      Everything the defendant did to this kid, was completely unnecessary

      Morally and logically speaking, even if he did really find the kid suspicious (I doubt that, I think he was just looking for trouble and someone to frame), he did not have any evidence that the kid did anything wrong, so it was completely unnecessary to stalk and threaten the kid’s safety, especially since it is a kid, and I highly doubt a huge majority of kids even go around pulling high stakes criminal acts (I think at most, most kids may pull off petty things like graffiti), so to chase and pull a gun on a kid, was unnecessary

      At most, if there was no gun involved, Fogenhats would have beat up a teenage kid for no reason, Trayvon would be alive, and Fogenhats would probably do a couple years for aggravated stalking and assault

      Lets be real, Fogenhats was never in any reasonable danger of losing his life or great bodily harm, and it is pretty obvious he instigated and started the whole turn of events and ended it

  35. Jun says:

    You know what is funny about Omara is

    He would rather just discuss it on his facebook page, his twitter, over email, go on TV, then go to trial

  36. ay2z says:

    The Zimmerman family might blame Judge Nelson for any decision to drop the pre-trial hearing as there is an update as of February 8th, on the parents website about the judge’s unfairness.

    Robert Sr writes:
    “George’s case is progressing. The presiding judge has refused to grant the defense time to present a thorough, honest defense.”

    • ay2z says:

      he continues, with once the “true facts” come out. “many individuals will be shown for what they really are.”

      What other individuals were involved in Trayvon’s killing? Who are they blaming and for what, that contributed to Robert’s son, following and killing Trayvon?

      • Jun says:

        Its a crock of nonsense

        His son stalked and killed a kid

        Of course there is a reasonable belief he committed murder and a reasonable reason for the governor and State to step in due to the fact that Norm could not be objective because he had a connection to the defendant

        Even if he truly believes his son acted in self defense, he should be reasonable enough to see that people are reasonable to believe a murder was committed, since he, um, stalked and killed a kid

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Jun, I agree with you and, I’m sick of this LUNATIC of a father and his lying for his criminal off spring. he knows his son is guilty as sin and yet he continues to lie for him. his very first appearance on national TV was nothing but lies which he was reading from the script that he had been given. the sooner this case is tried and Fogen is locked away where he belongs, will be better for everyone.

        If he didn’t want to pay for his crime, he should have never committed one. I still believe he will take a few more people down with him unless he has been threatened in order to keep his pie hole shut. cry baby in court crying for no one but himself. Fogen, you haven’t cried yet and, this is not the only crying that you are going to do. your days of not being locked up where you belong are numbered.

      • lurker says:

        I think that from the Zimmerman denial perspective, all fault lies with Crump. If Trayvon’s parents had not sought legal advice when the SPD seemed to be dragging its feet (again), then this all might have been swept under the rug.

        Serino pointed out to Z. his mistake in one of the early interviews. He didn’t pick a “thug” (apparently he believed that the hoody and dark skin were sufficient proof). He picked a good kid with a clean record, a future and parents who not only cared about him, but were savvy enough to understand their son’s legal rights and the history of Sanford PD.

        The insidiousness of Z’s racial bias is that he could not even conceive of a black kid with a hoody springing from middle class parenets with aspirations for their son. The Zidiots have desperately been trying to recast the Martins into their stereotype (stories that Trayvon drifted from relative to relative, that his mother was uninvolved and the like). And of course, in their eyes, Crump is just some Amos and Andy horse-trader.

        I don’t know if Dad and Mom Zimmerman have enough years left in their lives to work through the realities and find a sense of peace. In prison, George is likely to get worse before he gets better. And Junior is having too much fun selling his story to deal with reality.

        Sad bunch of folks all the way around.

    • Jun says:


      Really, how honest was their defense?

      Since the first bond hearing, we have heard nothing but lies from his family and the defendant himself

      The state brought up him attacking cops

      The family claimed Fogenhats would only do that in self defense

      The state brought up when he attacked his ex

      Again the family claimed Fogenhats did so in self defense

      Not to mention attempting to hide money and a passport, and talking about flying away on his jailhouse calls

      LOL they are so full of crap

      • abbyj says:

        Jun, That about sums up the family’s defense: it’s never been fogen’s fault a single time. Their entire stance is to point fingers elsewhere. They are so full of crap, indeed.

      • lurker says:

        The OS article on Shellie’s court appearance said that the second passport was obtained two weeks AFTER the killing. That is certainly interesting, isn’t it?

        • Xena says:


          The OS article on Shellie’s court appearance said that the second passport was obtained two weeks AFTER the killing. That is certainly interesting, isn’t it?

          That article is incorrect. In the State’s Motion to Revoke Bond, they set forth that GZ applied for a replacement passport on 3/8/2004. That passport does not expire until 2014. That is the one he kept hidden from O’Mara.

          Now, as far as ShelLIE is concerned, Dave suggested the other day that the $135.00 spent at the post office on 4/6/12 may have been for a passport for ShelLIE. However, that would not be 2 wks after GZ killed Trayvon but rather, about a week before he was arrested. It was the same day that GZ used his debit card in Cambridge, MD and that he launched his begging site the weekend thereafter.

      • lurker says:

        Xena–thanks for the update. It did seem odd that if Z. got the second passport after the killing that it hadn’t hit the news before this.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Wonder what Robert Sr.’s record of being turned over on appeal was back when he by many accounts was a magistrate in Virginia?

      Also wonder what advice he’s giving Fogen on the issues/concerns laid out by the professor. Wonder if Fogen even has had enough sense to ask?

      And is Fogen likely to deliberately go against advice from MOM and Daddy-o, just to show’em what a smart dude he is?

      • Xena says:

        Magistrate judges don’t decide cases. They aren’t required to have a law degree neither license. Papa Zim signed things such as search warrants and may have granted continuances and scheduling in case management but not decisions on substantive issues.

    • kimmi says:

      So what is RZ Sr sayin?
      The judge didn’t give us a continuance, so now we won’t have the time to be honest? LOL

      • roderick2012 says:

        Yes, Kimmi, any time George doesn’t get his way someone has it out for him.

        If you missed it, the Outhouses believed that Judge Nelson should have been removed after the February 5th hearing because she decided to read Crump’s affidavit rather than allow West & Co. to immediately depose him.

        As far as they are concerned Nelson needs to recuse herself because she was mean to George by not granting him a continuance and we need to started shopping for Judge # 4 or is it up to #5 by now?

    • racerrodig says:

      “George’s case is progressing. The presiding judge has refused to grant the defense time to present a thorough, honest defense.”

      That’s nothing short of sickening. Is that any kind of contempt, witness tampering or such. To make up a lie as bold faced as that is just pathetic.

      • Jun says:

        its been over a year by the time trial hits or even an SYG

        tick tock

        The state was ready in 45 or so days

        tick tock

        The father was not there at the incident so anything he says about what happened is meaningless

        tick tock

        The father or brother can not be objective

        tick tock

        • racerrodig says:

          Well said. I can’t wait for this trial. This tops anything I’ve ever seen as far as bizarre goes from day 1 and in all reality…well before.

          I can’t wait until we see the phone records. Can’t imagine how they will explain away some damning calls & text’s !!

          So stuff your face with Pizza, Pasta, KFC, Mickey D’s, BK, Wendys, and all the Cherry Pop Tarts and Root Beer Barrels you can Fogen…pack it on.

      • Jun says:

        IMO from observation

        Fogenhats is scared to go to an SYG hearing and even more scared to go to a trial in front of a jury

        It is funny how much they ask for time, and Fogenhats gave Trayvon about 8 minutes after seeing him, before deciding to chase him down to catch him, and then kill the kid, and he is going to have over a year to prepare

        No fair hearing for a kid, but a fair hearing for (the ex bouncer incest rapist woman beater neighborhood stalker wannabe cop gang member aka) Fogenhats according to them

        tick tock

        • racerrodig says:

          Sick pups !! III=> Tick – Tock <=III Indeed !!

          Nope, he couldn't give Trayvon any time to do squat, like answer an unlawful question, but he did have the frame of mind to "allow" Trayvon a minute to give him 2 dozen head bashes with no resistance didn't he ??

          • That’s the thing that bothers me there….fogen…supposed tough guy / bouncer……show’s NO DEFENSIVE wounds AT ALL……

            So he was just laying there on the ground getting the shit beat out of him and did NOTHING to fight back other than shooting Trayvon?


            I believe fogen already had his weapon drawn, expecting a confrontation.

      • abbyj says:

        Racer, Surely Jr.’s comment will get back to Judge Nelson, and she would not, IMO, be heartened to hear such a scathing assessment of her decision. Jr. blames her squarely; it’s always a dicey move to trash the judge. If you find it sickening, and I find it sickening, wonder what Judge Nelson will feel when she reads Jr.’s comment about her decision, that it deprives fogen’s team of an “honest defense.”

    • Xena says:

      Back around May 2012 when O’Mara waived GZ’s right to a speedy trial, he said it would take him 6 months to build GZ’s defense. Back in October, 2012, O’Mara said that the case would be ready for trial early “next year.” Well, here we are early in the year, and O’Mara now wants a continuance until November.


      His client is broke.

      • racerrodig says:


        His client is broke.” and the year is still young !

      • Two sides to a story says:

        That’s the gist of it. Gotta keep those paying supporters rolling because they wasted so much money on living expenses, a 2nd bail, security and that 40k upgrade that they may not need.

  37. Jun says:

    This is just me

    It would be good advice for the defense to skip the immunity hearing

    But it does not matter to me

    I just want the kid to have a fair hearing on what happened since the defendant silenced his voice, but the forensic evidence and witnesses speak for him

  38. Jun says:

    In all honesty

    considering Crump and company, when they were trying to help the case, the rest was pretty much spread by the kindness of people, and that went on for maybe 3 or 4 months, then it died down

    The petition was not even started by Crump or the Martin family, but by an Irish man who decided it was an injustice and started the petition

    Then everyone just shared it themselves to spread the word

    the last few months have been nothing been Junior going around everywhere telling lies, telling people they were not there while acting like he is the only person who knows

    So Trayvon’s team of people for about 4 months vs Fogenhats gang for close to a year of slander and telling lies

    You can only conclude the only people trying to taint a jury are the Fogenhats team

    They are the ones on the hunt to push their agenda

    The Martins did not really do all that much, they simply were helped by millions of people

  39. colin black says:

    After all is said and done foggen will waive bye bye to family freedom freindship………………Forever.. A G P..All Gods Plan..

  40. Trained Observer says:

    Also if revenie is only a trickle, how are the Fogens going to keep themselves in KFC?

  41. racerrodig says:

    “A possible solution might be to continue the trial to allow people to forget, but I do not believe that strategy will work because the defendant is toxic and his conduct was too egregious. People are not likely to forget. ”

    Not after the 100 or so interviews and press conferences they’ll stage……….Nooo Sir, Jr will be everywhere as will O’ Mara.

    Talk, talk, talk, talk……

    Isn’t Taaffe about due somewhere soon ?

    • Jun says:

      How exactly would people forget?


      The Trayvon campaign was never asked for, people just helped out of their own kindness, for about a 4 to 5 month period

      The Fogenhats have gone non stop in the media, talking Bullshit LOL

      Most everyone was just waiting for the trial or SYG hearing

    • racer…”Isn’t Taaffe about due somewhere soon?”
      I have a strong feeling that “someone” may have tied up Taaffe, put duct tape on his mouth, and stuffed him in a closet until he dried out and promised not to go near any computer again.

  42. rayvenwolf says:

    Before I take off for a few I have to say I think O’money might be trying to convince GZ of this while telling the supporters what they want to hear. Of course this is Senor Fogen, so all that advice is probably bouncing right off that swollen melon of his. It is unlikely for him to survive the immunity hearing and rather than play the game O’money has suggested he’s better off putting his big boy(and not big butt) pants on and diving right into the trial.

  43. Wonderful! I think thugboat is intent on going the route of SYG. I think O’Mara is stalling for more time to convince his client it is a losing proposition. It is not and will not sink into the defendant’s head that he is in for the fight of his life, like Trayvon was on the night of February 26th. Well, mores the pity, he should have stayed in his truck. The lying creep is persuasive enough that he would have probably still been able to persuade the police into harassing Trayvon for walking on his turf without the benefit of HIM knowing who Trayvon was.

  44. Tzar says:

    be back
    I believe he should go ahead and do the immunity hearing and show the world just how innocent he is because reasons 🙂

    • Xena says:

      LOL@Tzar. I was so looking forward to GZ’s immunity hearing hoping he would demonstrate, yet again, how he extended his arm and made sure his left hand was not in the path of his aim — to shoot a person who he said was leaning on his mouth.

      • racerrodig says:

        Try explaining how you blew your left hand off as “Self Defense”

        “See, I had a hold of his, er, my hand, that is……………um, he saw the gun and I extended my arm, aimed, that is I didn’t aim because that would infer I had time to, that is, I was almost unconscious and Black Dynamite Slim was, um….and my head….is about to explode”

        (Shrugs shoulders in his pathetic “..hey, what’s a guy to do” fashion)

  45. Trained Observer says:

    “A possible solution might be to continue the trial to allow people to forget, but I do not believe that strategy will work because the defendant is toxic and his conduct was too egregious. People are not likely to forget.” — Frederick Leatherman

    Not only will people NOT FORGET JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON, hostility toward the defendant is likely to mushroom with any perceived delay in a timely trial.

    Moreover, as the professor points out, Fogen as the client needs to make his decision on whether to waive with care … he’s the one looking at decades if not life in a cell, whereas O’Mara as the attorney will go to a comfy home and an office enhanced with $40,000 worth of new equipment no matter what.

    • Xena says:

      Junior won’t let the public forget. He is mouthing off at every opportunity, which gives me the impression that is one reason why Judge Nelson denies requests to continue.

      • jm says:

        I thought it would be best for RZJ to lay low to allow some distance but it appears he can’t help himself, he is so in love with the camera and new-found fame. Then again, maybe he is on the road in anticipation of hate crime charges and he is doing what he needs to do to assure everyone GZ is not white thus he can’t be hating black azzholes who always get away.

        Either way RZJ for whatever motivation he may have, he just adds fuel to flames of public opinion.

        • I think his motivation is to do the talk show circuit AFTER his brothers put away………

          • racerrodig says:

            I can see the producers of the shows he’s been on laughing like banshees at him. When FogenPhooles cell goes clang, Jr’s a mic will get cut.

            Testing……Check……Check….1 – 2 – 1 – 2 ………Testing ..Is this thing on ??

      • cielo62 says:

        Xena~ Well, Judge Nelson COULD put a gag order in place, and that would stop the entire Zidiot family from mouthing off. as well as MOM making a fool of himself.

        • Xena says:

          Hey Cielo62!

          Well, Judge Nelson COULD put a gag order in place, and that would stop the entire Zidiot family from mouthing off. as well as MOM making a fool of himself.

          The Professor can answer this. It is my understanding that the gag order would only apply to the parties and the media. Maybe an injunction against Junior for good cause?

  46. Intresting..MO really needs to convince his client to plead guilty to save the family from any further trama. George Zimmerman is guilty. Does anyone feel Mark Omara can get a mistrial to prolong Geroge Zimmerman’s freedom?

    • Trained Observer says:

      Doubt Judge Nelson is going to run a show where likelihood of a mistrial would be at all in the cards.

      Question … if there were a mistrial, would Corey’s office have the option of upping the ante to 1st Degree on premeditation? Could she do it between now and trial time, if overwhelming evidence of of a plot among Fogen and pals to go after someone that night began to surface?

      • Xena says:

        1st Degree Murder in Florida requires a Grand Jury indictment. Afraid that boat has already sailed.

      • abbyj says:

        TO, I have also been wondering about the feasibility of upping the ante to 1st Degree also since there will be a reasonably good chance of establishing premeditation in the forthcoming evidence. I guess that ship sailed, as Xena said, but too bad, as the entire catastrophe with Trayvon Martin feels as close to an outright targeted execution as one could get. Thank you for asking the question, TO, and thanks Xena for your answer.

      • looneydoone says:

        Trained Observer,
        IF there’s overwhelming evidence of a plot between fogen and pals to go after someone that night, the DOJ/FBI doesn’t require a Grand Jury in order to hand down Criminal Indictments naming all accomplices and accessories and taking them to trial.

        I’d like to see that happen at conclusion of the State vs zimmermann…but am not hopeful.

  47. ay2z says:

    Increasing the number of peremptory challenges makes a lot of sense because pre-trial publicity does shift your ability to be objective in the face of what you have seen and heard, even just watching the case, it’s easy to confuse ‘facts’ with assumptions. Egos have to be put aside, and a view of what evidence is and is not, probably takes some effort on the part of influenced jurors.

    Thanks for answering questions I, and I’m sure a lot of others, were wondering about.

    If the SYG or self defense hearing is set aside, will jurors be expected to evaluate SYG as part of self-defense and will the jurors be expected to evaluate the law that they may have pre-conceived ideas about from past rehtoric in this or other cases?

    Excellent article, this may be a way out for MOM to stick with the case and hope jurors decide SYG anyway, based on misconceptions of the law.

  48. Two sides to a story says:

    It will be interesting to see what OM chooses to do – or is pushed to do by his client. If their folly continues, and it’s likely to, they will likely forge ahead with the immunity hearing. The paying supporters demand it and and are certain Fogen will be redeemed all the while that the evils of Corey, Crump, and BDLR and practically every African American in the nation will be exposed.

    I hope they listen to you, Mr. Leatherman, because they really need to have a trial that is so fair and square that no one will be able to dispute Fogen’s crime.

    • Yeah…don’t you just love how Jr is on the media circuit laying the groundwork for all the peremptory challenges of any African American that may end up in the jury pool. You know pre-trial publicity just does something to us of the darker persuasion and since we are all tricksy and all, well ya know…like we can’t be trusted to walk in a gated community at 7 in the evening on a Sunday, we certainly are not worthy of sitting in judgement of his royal heinousness, thugboat!

    • Prof. Leatherman, will you respond to a repeat post that I would also like addressed? Is it possible for the SYG to occur simultaneously with the traditional trial?

      “shannoninmiami says:
      February 17, 2013 at 7:21 pm
      @Prof, i’m reposting this b/c hopefully we can find out WTF is going on here! Why would omar think he can get the immunity and trial to run concurrently?

      Can someone please tell us how likely it would be that gz would be given even MORE special treatment by allowing the immunity hearing and trial simultaneously?? has anyone else been allowed to do this? and what can we do to prevent this? because i damn sure don’t want him to have this advantage!

      AND IT IS A HUGE ADVANTAGE in all kinds of ways, one being financially, and another is the same thing that OS article was talking about shifting the burden back to the state in front of the jury!!!!

      BTW, is that what this David case did?? he had them both at the same time???”

      • lurker says:

        I am also interested in this, as it appears as though the judge left the question open until the next hearing on Friday. In reading around, apparently what O’Mara was asking for in terms of folding the immunity hearing into the regular trial would be a situation in which there would be a single trial and at the end, prior to the jury deliberation she could rule on the immunity issue, sort of on the qt. I can see where there would be tremendous advantage to this from Z’s standpoint. Not only would it buy some time and avoid having to present two cases, but it also would tend to prevent some of the jury impact of knowing that the defendent just failed to make the self-defense case.

        What I don’t know is if this is a usual sort of thing and if the judge would be likely to go for it.

      • No, I do not believe the immunity hearing can be or should be combined with the trial for the simple reasons that the statute does not authorize it and combining them would not work because the burden of proof not only switches from one party to the other, depending on whether the parties are in trial or in the immunity hearing, it also changes from a preponderance of the evidence to proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

        I was shocked to discover that the defense proposed it because the burden to prove self-defense in the immunity hearing by a preponderance of the evidence would necessarily force the defense to introduce evidence that it is not required to introduce at trial. This would undermine the presumption of innocence creating constitutional error.

        .The idea to combine the two hearings betrays an embarrassing ignorance of fundamental constitutional rights and is the functional equivalent of hanging a sign around the neck that says:

        Please Help Me. I Do Not Know What I Am Doing.

      • kimmi says:

        So I wonder, is Fogen still driving the bus in this case, or did MOM come up with this one all on his own?

        Can anything be done to stop this, IF JN were to allow it?

      • Tzar says:

        Frederick Leatherman says:
        February 18, 2013 at 10:16 pm
        I was shocked to discover that the defense proposed it because the burden to prove self-defense in the immunity hearing by a preponderance of the evidence would necessarily force the defense to introduce evidence that it is not required to introduce at trial. This would undermine the presumption of innocence creating constitutional error.

        I am preparing myself for the hearing when O’Mara just outright proposes, for the judges consideration of course, that we cancel the case and send the killer home. Why not? He’s already proposed that his client be allowed to testify without cross-examination; is that not a core tenet of basic judicial principle? and he proposed that, without ridicule or castigation from the press or the judiciary, so why couldn’t he propose a simple cancellation of the case. It seems to me that O’Mara is just a misunderstood visionary ahead of his times, like a Morpheus of the judicial matrix, and just like in the matrix, some rules can be bent and some can be broken; “is that air you are breathing?”, do we really need to separate an immunity hearing from an actual trial… and if I ask you these questions straight faced and shamelessly enough are you not bound by some imaginary rule of human behavior to take me seriously? So c’mon….I mean, “comes now”, MOM, let’s write some new…”law”, or break an old one, you judicial maven, you…

        • racerrodig says:

          “…you judicial maven, you…” That is a Phabulous new Zidiot term you know. I notice that Team FogenPhoole simply does not have the imagination exhibited by Team Trayvon…..

          Tray Huggers is about the best. Tray Huggers….and damn proud of it. Hoodies Up

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Of course doing so would have an effect that the legislators never intended. Foisting the cost of a criminal trial off on to family of the deceased. Since there is no provision for combining these quantities, and because the law requires that the immunity hearing be held not later than 45 days before trial, my guess is the Judge will let O’Mara do whatever he wants to do, believe whatever he wants to believe. But when the moment of truth arrives, he’s have the Judges decision set those beliefs and desires aside.

          Fortunately there’s no requirement that judges suffer fools!

      • Thank you Prof for answering this! it’s been bugging me for days!!

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