Defendant Was Straddling Trayvon When He Fired the Kill Shot

Saturday, February 9, 2013

Nefertari05 posted the following comment today at 2:54 pm.

“I am curious about one thing though. Many people have posted it is physically impossible to make that shot, with the straight trajectory, while laying on his back with Trayvon over him. I posted this thought many months ago, using a sexual position analogy, but I really don’t understand why if Zimmerman’s arm is raised at a 45 degree angle (aiming up, continuing the 45 degree angle), and Trayvon is leaning over, perpendicular to the gun, why it wouldn’t be a straight thru, no angle shot. Granted, I am no scientist, and my understanding of physics is elementary, at best, but a 45 degree angled arm (from a prone position), with Trayvon leaning over, perpendicular, seems like a straight shot to me. I know I’m missing something. I freely admit it. Can you explain to me what it is, so I have a better understanding?”

When medical examiners do autopsies on gunshot victims, they insert metal rods into the wounds and take photographs of the rods sticking out from the body so people can clearly see the angle of entry and trajectory of each bullet.

I have no doubt the assistant ME did the same thing with Trayvon’s bullet wound.

Couple that with expert testimony about the distance from which the fatal shot was fired and you get a pretty good idea of the location of the muzzle and the position of the gun relative to the location and position of Trayvon’s body.

Hold that image in your mind and imagine that you are the shooter lying on your back with the gun in a holster inside your waistband behind your right hip.

How do you get that gun out of the holster using only your right hand and maneuver it into the position it has to be in when the defendant fired the fatal shot?

Remember that he said he extended his arm, aimed to avoid shooting his left hand and fired.

The first problem is that his body is on top of the gun. He would have to roll over on his left hip to be able to reach the gun with his right hand and pull it out. This move probably would have thrown Trayvon off his body, but he never claimed that happened and, if it had, he would no longer have been reasonably in fear of imminent death or serious injury.

The second problem is that the presence of Trayvon’s thigh and lower leg would have complicated rolling to the left and blocked access to the gun. Also, the surface of the ground would have blocked and restricted movement of the elbow further complicating the draw (not to mention that there is no way Trayvvon could have seen the gun).

Third, I’m not sure, but I think he holstered the gun for a cross-draw with the left hand. If so, the gun butt would have been facing forward requiring an additional move to turn the gun around so that the muzzle was facing forward.

Fourth, then he had to position the gun between their bodies instead of just sticking it into Trayvon’s ribs and pulling the trigger.

All of these problems are avoided if he is on top straddling Trayvon with his knees and shins pinning Trayvon’s arms to the ground.

He could take his time, draw his gun, taunt Trayvon, aim and pull the trigger.

Mary Cutcher, Selma Mora and the teacher all said the shooter stood up immediately after the shot leaving the victim lying on the ground.

Finally, there is the displacement between the bullet holes in the two sweatshirts that align with each other, but not the wound that I have previously mentioned. The displacement indicates the defendant was gripping the sweatshirts with his left hand and pulling the sweatshirts down and to the left and away from Trayvon’s body toward himself, possibly to get his hand out of the line of fire, when he fired the kill shot.

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343 Responses to Defendant Was Straddling Trayvon When He Fired the Kill Shot

  1. Fred Carroll says:

    If TM has his arms raised at the time the shot was fired, would that explain the straight bullet entry versus the shirt/hoodie angle?

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Fred Carroll

      Don’t understand your question, Fred – TM in what position?

      The shirt/hoodie angle represents a pull of the shirts AWAY from the centerline so GZ does not shoot his own hand, and TOWARD GZ leavng the airspace between shirts and skin, as reported by forensic evidence.

      The grasping motion is replicated by two SDP videos where GZ re-created the shooting action.

      There are two schools of thought as to where TM was when shot: (a)standing, or (b)flat on the ground, beneath GZ mounted on TM’s arms, MMA-style.

      In both those positions GZ could drill Trayvon right through the heart in the trajectory ascertained by the medical examiner’s office.

      That trajectory is not possible with GZ UNDER Trayvon.

      Fiber analysis was requested. That would tell us if GZ’s levis fiber shed onto Trayvon’s hoodie and his chino pants – especiall Trayvon’s hoodie sleeves. This would indicate GZ was mounted on Trayvon, not standing.

      Fiber analysis has not yet been released by FDLE.

      • Fred Carroll says:

        PiranhaMom, my thought was that TM was standing with his hands raised in surrender. Thank you for you explanation it does shed more light. Can’t wait till the fiber analysis as well as GZ’s phone records are released.

  2. kllypyn says:

    I think Trayvon briefly broke away during the beginning of the struggle and tried to run,but slipped on the wet grass and fell.Zimmmerpunk had pulled his gun and caught up to Travon that’s when Trayvon saw the gun and started screaming.

  3. nocamo33 says:

    Mike Knox asserts that Trayvon was on top, based on his “expert” analysis. I don’t agree, but I am not an expert. What do you make of his conclusions?

  4. Dennis says:

    The Professor is exactly correct. If Trayvon was straddling the defendant’s body, it would have been around the waist area. That means Trayvon’s left leg would be up against the defendant’s right hip pretty much blocking access to the holster. A good ballistics expert should be able to prove in court that the defendant shooting Trayvon while on his back would not be possible due to the angle and trajectory.

  5. SearchingMind says:

    Can those of us who have listened very carefully to the 911-recording confirm or deny (with reasonable certainty) that the words: “stay down”! and/or “don’t move!”, could be heard at the background?

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Searching –

      Have you heard this, or similar commands? I do not have studio-quality beadphones, so I have not heard it. I recall others saying they have, but after 6,000 posts from students, cannot give you a name, alas.

      I envision that such a command would have been made by Zimmerman AFTER Trayvon failed to answer the question, that Trayvon answered with “I don’t knowwwwww..”

      We have been thinking on this site that GZ was either trying to get a confession from from Trayvon, to:
      (a)”Did you rob these houses?” NO? Who did? You know these guys? Give me the names!” or:
      (b) after Zimmerman demands “What are you doing around here?” TRayvon said, “I’m staying here” or “I live at Mrs. Green’s” or “I’m visiting Brandi.” and GZ barks, “Yeah -What’s the numberrr?” and Trayvon screams, “I don’t knowwwww…”

      I am inclined to believe that the interrogation in (b) likely took place, because it would logically follow “What are you doing [around]here?” reported both by DeeDee and Jenna.

      There’s not a lot of time for a full-fledged conversation to develop.

      When Trayvon can’t supply the number, this confirms to GZ that Trayvon IS an intruder, on the grounds for criminal purposes. GZ is determined to not let this “asshole get away” and is infuriated by the struggle.

      He expects a docile prisoner. We know there was a brief struggle. Because I am still convinced that GZ would not run through the neighborhood gun-in-hand, I consider this is the point that Zimmerman drew the gun from its holster and demand his quarry “Stay still!!”

      Because GZ couldn’t point the barrel of the Kel-Tek in “the sweet spot” for a shot to the heart while Trayvon was struggling, and avoid any injury to his own left hand.

      While GZ had Trayvon’s arms pinned to his sides by GZ’s knees & shins, this left Trayvon’s only defense to be moving his head, jerking it about, with some related movement extended to the torso. Trayvon could also possibly be kicking up his heels, especialy as GZ raised his haunches, moving forward over Trayvon’s chest, to carefully position the barrel.

      If you can provide any order that GZ spat out that relates to him telling Trayvon not to move – AND PINPOINT THE TIME in the recording, that would be helpful.

      Somehow, “You’re going to die tonight, motherfucker” seems a long (and cinematic) conversation for that short time frame, but I could see “Stay still” followed quickly by
      “Die, you fucker!” within that time.

      On a curious note, what if GZ had actually said, “Stay away!” or “Keep still!” or “Keep quiet” and THAT was the warning reported by Jeremy to Jenna? (“He warned me to keep … “)

      Then the shot was heard.

      Maybe GZ was saying this to Trayvon, but Jeremy took it as being addressed to himself …

  6. Trained Observer says:

    Fogen seems especially dumb to offer Serrino a re-enactment of movements COMBINED with an embroidered version of dialog from his NEN calls.

    Didn’t Fogen know cops already knew what dispatcher said and what he said? Let them put it together. This yammer just makes his story seem more ludicrous. Seems to me a defense lawyer (if he’d had one at that point) would have put a muzzle on his mouth and would have curtailed some of this morning-after recreational activity.

    For the state and for Trayvon’s memory, this dumbo-demo (once compared to GPS trackers) is yet another highlight of his lying.

    • Malisha says:

      Remember, though, that at the time he gave all those statements, he was sure, certain, POSITIVE, that there would be NO CHARGES drawn because he and his father and Osterman were already assured by Wolfinger that such was the case. He was talking because he liked embroidering his “thug tried to kill me but I prevailed” story; it made him feel good.

      What a shame he couldn’t have just stayed home and felt good in bed with Shellie. I guess he had to seek other thrills… OY!

      • Trained Observer says:

        Bingo on all that, Malisha … am looking forward to much, much more coming out on Wolfinger … his actions that night, he ties (if any) to Fogen’s Fam. It sure took him long enough to recuse himself with that (apparently sealed) letter citing conflict of interest.

    • racerrodig says:

      I said it before

      “…..Mr. Zimmerman, you have the right to remain silent…….and….”

      “……, ok, but why would I do that…….I have so many more versions to tell ya……”

    • Cercando Luce says:

      If he’d kept his mouth closed, he’d have a better chance of getting away with cold-blooded murder, because only Trayvon’s screams would contradict his story and the jury’d give benefit of doubt.

  7. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I am wondering if we could learn more now if we watch the videos of gz (reenactment, stress test, etc.) with the sound turned OFF.

    We would then be able to look at the body language of gz and the investigators without the distraction of the verbal story line.

    We also could concentrate on gz’s gesture “explanations” better.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      For instance, when gz is at RVC with the detectives and explaining how he wanted to get an address, Serino is NOT looking at those houses as gz talks, but is looking SOUTH on Retreat View Circle.

      Start at Timestamp 2:09

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Scratch– START at timestamp 1:48

        • racerrodig says:

          Around the 3:00 minute mark he says I walked past here (the T) and I didn’t see him ONE STOP later he says Trayvon just appeared and is what 6 feet from the “T”……and you didn’t see him? Trayvon would have to appear “David Copperfield” style.

          Another problem. During his NEN call he NEVER says what kind of Schruck he has. He just says you’ll see my schruck. In his alleged reenactment he says he told them he had a Honda Ridgeline.

          I’ll bet he never said what kind of schruck because he knew Smith would be there 1st and Smith exactly what FogenPhoole drove.

  8. thejbmission says:

    LLMPaPa reminds..

    But for me to completely accept this premise, however, I’ve got to get past 53 1/2″ as the factual distance from the ground up to the bullet’s entry for our 5′ 11″ tall victim, being the SAME distance as the distance from the ground up to the center line of fire from a gun in the outstretched arm of a 5′ 8″ tall shooter.

    That’s the bomb! I find your Part 3 video very compelling.
    But.. I can’t get over the blood on Fogen’s head flowing forward which indicates that he was on top in the scuffle, at least at some point.
    I recall from an early hearing, one of BDLR’s investigators, while on the stand mention a “chase”. Does anyone else remember this?

    I read there’s a witness who says she saw a chase but wasn’t sure of who was chasing who. Maybe there were two crime scenes.
    1st crime scene, is when Fogen approaches and begins to interrogate Trayvon — an altercation ensues — Trayvon and Fogen wrestle in the grass — Trayvon gets up and tries to run away.

    2nd crime scene, is when Fogen grabs Trayvon by the hoodie — drops his flashlight — turns him around and shoots.
    That would explain the partially dried blood dripping forward from Fogen’s fat head and LLMPaPa’s theory that he shot Trayvon standing up.

    • Aunt Bea says:

      I think the “chase” witness is pretty unreliable.

      I LOVE the white shirt witness. I doubt she listened to here own 911 call and expressed her confusion from what she had “heard” from other sources. Neighbors?

      But, she stuck to her “white shirt” sighting. Unless she is an attention-seeker, boat-rocker or just plain argumentative, I admire her. Of course, she is also the cuffed hoodie lady.

      So, what do I know?…LOL…

    • tonydphotog says:

      Is it possible that the first chase was not a chase at all? Could it be when Trayvon was running away from Fogen? Didn’t one of the witnesses say it only looked like one person running?

  9. Food for thought

    “It wasn’t his gun…… wasn’t my gun….it was just THE gun”

    Could this have been an early dodge by fogen knowing it was shellies gun he used?

    • Rachael says:

      Does it matter? It was A gun and he used it to shoot and kill GZ.

    • Judy75201 says:

      I think he decided it was God’s gun since it was God’s plan.

      • Is “god” legal to have a CCW in FLA?……what with his vengeance, smiteing & anger issues?

        • racerrodig says:

          He doesn’t need one…..nothing like a good old fashion flood, plague or something. I keep playing his music and talking to him while in my shop and he tells me I’m on the right track.

          • “I’ll just keep worshiping the Sun (it gives me a warm feeling) & pray to Joe Pecsi……U want someone smitted? ol Joe’s the one to pray to”

            With compliments to George Carlin 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Carlin certainly was a real funny guy. He could take any subject and shred it. One of his best is …………

      • racerrodig says:

        ‘I think he decided it was God’s gun since it was God’s plan.”

        Followed by Gods guilty verdict plan, followed by mans prison plan, followed by God’s Prison Plan.

        Nothing like Planning ahead I always say.

    • tonydphotog says:

      “It wasn’t his gun…… wasn’t my gun….it was just THE gun”

      It was his “mentor”, Osterman, who taught him that quote. IIRC, Osterman mentioned that on the Dr. Phil Show.

      On the Hannity interview, Fogen smirked when he made that comment.

  10. I wonder if hannity will interview him in prison once he’s convicted?

    • racerrodig says:

      “I wonder if hannity will interview him in prison once he’s convicted?”

      SH “So despite all of the evidence, you were convicted of 2nd degree murder”

      Fogen “……, yes, but it’s not like, um……..I’m guilty or anything”

      SH “Well how do you get along in here”

      Fogen “……..sometimes I run, but more like skipping…..not like….
      ….out of fear………well a little fear”

      SH “I didn’t ask how do you get around, I asked how do you get along…..with the other inmates”

      Fogen “…..well, um….there are some real suspicious black guys and…….”

      SH “Wait a moment……isn’t that the kind of thinking that got you in trouble last year?”

      Fogen “…..what trouble? It’s not like I did anything wrong”

      SH “………………………guard………………..can you let me out please?”

  11. I do so hope that fogen will be a model prisoner….

    Maybe even voted to be America’s Most Decent Convicted Murderer……

  12. Jun says:

    I have figured out Junior talk

    Fair Trial means that everyone has to take everything the Fogenhats KKKlan says as fact or it is not a fair trial, no matter how big of BS it is, and the black kid has no rights

    Stopped following means it is continued following

    You were not there means “How the hell did you uncover that?”

    When Junior says “it is definitely 100% absolutely Fogenhats”, it means that it actually sounds like a kid screaming, which would be the kid

    Bashed Head means that Trayvon never attacked Fogenhats at all and Fogenhats actually shot him after stalking him for no reason

    The truth has no agenda means Junior has an agenda to spread lies and BS about what happened, even though he was not there and did not bother looking at evidence or the witnesses testimony

    Stop disparaging Trayvon means please Zimmernuts gang, continue making up lies and slander about the dead kid because he is not here to defend the accusations


    I’d honestly love to kick Junior’s ass…. fair fight too, no weapons, bare handed, MMA style…

    • Same here Jun….both the young punks… MMA…..don’t know any of that…..just the street fightin’ I learned growing up…..

      Neither one has balls or a brain…

      • racerrodig says:

        “Neither one has balls or a brain…” You got that right !!

        A good old fashion street fight….MMA…..boxing….it makes no difference to me. Dad being a cop taught me how to inflict such pain with so little effort in spots one never imagined not one of them has a clue as to what would be lurking.

        You….me……Rz jr…….a dark alley or any place for that matter… my wife always says…….never bet against racer……..never.

        • Funny…..the same is said about me in my circle….

          Generally…”They picked the wrong person to fu*k with”

          • racerrodig says:

            I got picked on incessantly because dad was cop. Dad would bust Jimmy boy and his younger brother, my age, would pick on me. When I was about 10 dad showed me how to apply some very serious pain while never even landing a punch. I can tell you that wrists, noses, elbows, the belt / waistband and a foot are all very good items to use. Theirs, not mine. I can make a 250 pound man cry like a baby with the right nose pull…….and not a bruise to prove what happened……grab a guy by the belt above his butt.

            I can make anyone jump and create new dance steps with no difficulty whatsoever !! The wrist…….always a good time !!

          • Me?…….I was the poor kid in the children’s home…went to public schools…..who the parents of the other kids didn’t want their kids playing with (sound like discrimination?)…Bullied? yeah…..and when I fought back?…….I was always the guilty one because I was of the underclass.

          • racerrodig says:

            I hear ya !! One day the punk up the street started a fight with me when we were playing football. He intentionally broke my glasses, which were on a lumber pile. I got on him about it, he took a swing and I showed him what a bloody lip and nose were all about. We were about 10 – 11 maybe.

            About an hour later, dad was home for Sunday dinner (in uniform) this kid’s mom rings the bell and thinks she’s going to tell dad a thing or 2. Dad’s last words to her were “…..from what I understand from all the witnesses, Jimmy took the 1st swing……I can’t help it if he can’t fight……lets face it….this is way overdue and who’d paying for XXX’s glasses?? (sound of door closing in face)

      • cielo62 says:

        MMP and JUN~ I guess I’ll just have to take a number and wait my turn! 

    • Aunt Bea says:

      I actually told my ex he spoke “Ronese”. LOL

    • thejbmission says:

      That makes me so mad. Trayvon’s wasn’t able to defend himself in life because Fogen had a Kel-Tec 9 hiding under his jacket and thanks to Fogen’s brother, Trayvon can’t defend his good name in death. That’s so unfair.

    • Judy75201 says:

      I think you’ve figured out Junior very well, Jun!

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Keep writing the Junior-English dictionary, you’re on to something!

    • Malisha says:

      My experience over at the outhouse makes me think that nobody has to beat up Junior. All you have to do is walk by him casually (showing self-confident posture) and say in a normal tone of voice, “Trayvon Martin was not a thug.”

      He’ll need CPR.

      • racerrodig says:

        I can go with that. If it happens we’ll use my version of CPR. Ask nice and I’ll tell you all about it !!

      • Jun says:

        that is true


        it would be fairly satisfying to fight that bully and predator Junior


        Nothing like giving a kimura to an adult who likes to pick on kids, especially dead kids (ie Junior) LOL

        Junior does get really angry when you spill out the evidence to him though

    • Nefertari05 says:

      That’s as accurate a translation of fogenese (as spoken by the entire fogen family, as I’ve ever seen. Spot on!

    • racerrodig says:

      Last Year I posted a Zidiot Nation Charter Laws & ByLaws “book” on HP which is similar to what you stated…..all of it being true.

      Maybe we should do one here. That would be a blog all it’s own.

      As far as a match with RZ jr. Count me in and we can do a tag team thing since that what they seem to understand. I have a friend who will referee the match. Who knows, he may jump in unexpectedly at any time….

    • Xena says:

      @Jun. When Junior talks about a presumption of innocence, and then calls Trayvon a savage who savagely beat GZ, he demonstrates the ultimate double-standard.

      • esentrick says:

        Well said Xena! {{{{Applause}}}}

        • Xena says:

          Junior is an embarrassment. Just once I would like an interviewer to ask him why he was estranged from his brother until after GZ killed Trayvon.

          • esentrick says:

            Jr would never allow you to interview him cause he knows you will catch him all kinds of lies and expose him for what he is! :0 You will make a great interviewer! I wish I had the knack for role playing like you and others do on here. I would surely like to know his response to being estranged from his brother.

          • Xena says:

            @esentrick. Oh, I could never personally interview Junior because I’m not objective. IMO, he’s an asshole telemarketer who has practiced a script. Junior had no reputation prior to 2/26/12 and his reputation now is nothing more than being the brother of a killer.

      • racerrodig says:

        A hypocritical lying racist with an IQ that is just about room temperature does that all the time.

      • Jun says:

        LOL Even Piers caught him in his hypocrisy

        Piers “He was told not to follow. He clearly followed.”

        Junior “You are talking like you were there.”

        Piers “To be fair Robert, you were not there either. So you should not presume anything.”

        Junior “Yeah, well I know the story better than you”

        This hypocrisy is he was not there, but he is allowed to say what happened and no one else

        It is like that old philosophical question of, if a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around, does it make a sound?

        • Xena says:

          @Jun. Back in April, the “Were you there?” Zidiot mantra was common to read on Yahoo comments wherever things that GZ said were mentioned, such as his answer in the affirmative to “Are you following him?” One of my responses to that mantra was “The State, neither O’Mara were there either.”

          Junior insults the intelligence of not just intelligent people who have heard the recording of GZ’s NEN call, but he also calls his brother a liar.

        • racerrodig says:

          “Junior “Yeah, well I know the story better than you””

          “…story…’ being the key word….once again leave it to a FogenPhoolePhamilyPhreak to actually tell the “what” aspect.

  13. LLMPapa says:

    Professor, I don’t know for certain the position of Trayvon when shot, and you have certainly stated a compelling argument for the defendant straddling his victim.

    But for me to completely accept this premise, however, I’ve got to get past 53 1/2″ as the factual distance from the ground up to the bullet’s entry for our 5′ 11″ tall victim, being the SAME distance as the distance from the ground up to the center line of fire from a gun in the outstretched arm of a 5′ 8″ tall shooter.

    Zimmerman even demonstrated his outstretched arm’s position in his CVSA interview.

    For the bullet to have entered Trayvon’s chest in this EXACT position while straddling OR being straddled by the shooter, would be a coincidence for the ages in my opinion.

    Thank You for all you do in this fight for justice.

    • Xena says:

      @LLMPapa. Your video “How Part 3” was your first video that I watched. Then, as I watched GZ’s two re-enactments, I noticed that he didn’t look down, neither up, but straight ahead.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yes, and wouldn’t he do that if he were trying to convey that he were under or over Trayvon? More and more I think he told the truth with his body language on that one. It may have been possible though, that Travyon was above, pulling away, and that Fogen both extended his right arm and grabbed Trayvon’s hoody with his left. But like LLMPapa says, it would have to be a coincidence for the ages to make all the angles and distances fit.

    • Aunt Bea says:

      The number of linear planes available for this shot must be astronomical!!!!
      There are sooo–o-o-o-o many variables.

      I see the path of the projectile as much more than coincidence.
      First available shot would be instinct, left hand be damned…

      Even if I believed this “John” character, TM could have been rising up off of GZ.
      As in, this fight’s over, YAY “John”.
      Perhaps, TM was even assisting GZ up from the ground…and GZ took the opportunity and the shot.

    • Dave says:

      The video makes sense IF both people were standing bolt upright on level ground and IF the killer held the gun straight out in front with his right arm parallel to the ground and without raising his shoulder or using his sights. Bear in mind that the ground slopes rather steeply toward the west at the location of the shooting.

    • William Walton says:

      LLMPapa, you are thinking like a scientist. The data must justify the conclusion. If not, go back to the drawing board. Very much like your quote.

    • racerrodig says:

      We certainly don’t “Know” exactly how they were positioned but one thing is for certain, Only in FogenPhoolesPhuckingPhantasies is he on the bottom. For some reason I have a picture of Trayvon sitting on his butt with his torso just off the vertical, leaning back a bit trying break free. Fogen has a grip on Trayvon’s shirt & hoodie with his left hand and is straddling him and bent well over. I believe he had his weapon already out well before he stopped Trayvon.

      Since Trayvon is down he is probably using his hands trying to keep from going all the way back or sideways. Fogen gets water & grass stains on his boot tips by the bending over and may have even had one boot at a time “toes down” then the other.

      Trayvon at one point had to be flat on his back since there is debris imbedded in his hoodie, without a doubt from struggling and not just a casual lie down.

    • Lynn says:

      I always see this image in my head.

      They are standing.

      Trayvon is trying to flee.

      George is swatting those flies trying to grab him.

      He finally clutches a handful of Trayvon’s shirts.

      Trayvon pulls to get away just as Fogen extends his gun arm.

      Trayvon is squealing in fear seeing that gun coming just inches from him.

      Fogen’s extended left hand being pulled as Trayvon is trying to escape makes Fogen have to aim as to not hit his own hand.

      He fires.

      Trayvon falls causing Fogen to lose footing and slip backwards bumping his head on the sidewalk.

      Immediately gets up and leans over Trayvon flipping, frisking or whatever.

      Blood drips downwards from Fogen’s little boo boos.

      That scenario is what is replayed over and over in my head when i try to envision that night. It makes the entrance angle work. It explains the blood path. No smear from the grass. Trayvon’s head was away from the sidewalk putting Fogen with his back towards the sidewalk enabling the boo boos. It was a wet sloped slippery hill. It explains the grass on Fogen’s back that first-on-scene cops saw.

      I can’t “see” in my head the scenario where Trayvon is straddling him and Fogen is miraculously able to get to his gun under his butt and fire the perfect straight arm shot while not smearing the blood from the fresh head bashing he just endured.

      My memory is failing me a little, but didn’t one of the male witness see the two being in 3 different areas in the grass? Each time he looked out they were moved. I’ll have to go read some. It just never seemed like a fight in one spot like Fogen claims.

      • William Walton says:

        Lynn, you too would do well in explaining the World of Physics. It all boils down to Gravity, Momentum, and Vector Analysis.

    • Looolooo says:

      I downloaded this app “wild about Trial”, a while ago. It’s informative, but not kept up to date.

    • Malisha says:

      Here’s the breakdown, for me:

      Fogen’s belief that Trayvon was suspicious, that he was “up to no good,” that there was “something wrong with him,” that he was an asshole trying to get away, that he was a fucking punk, was equivalent to

      O’Mara’s unconfirmed belief that DeeDee was a person of such ill repute, a kid so given to lying and other bad behavior, that she would have certainly revealed her dishonesty and non-credibility in her social media.

      A = B in the mind of the observer.

      In the law, however, different matter. Look at the Mark Fuhrman issue in the OJ Simpson trial. When Fuhrman got on the stand in that case, there WAS a good reason to suspect that he was a racist who worked in a corrupt police department that would try to frame a Black celebrity for a crime he did not commit (although I personally believe, with Jay Leno, that they tried to frame a Black celebrity for a crime he DID commit). Yet they did not get permission to go into every single detail (at that time, no social media available) of Fuhrman’s past. Someone PHONED THEM and played a tape for them from a conversation she had with Fuhrman long before the murder and long before the trial! It only happened because the OJ Simpson case was so newsworthy. Had there not been big news of the case, the call would have never happened because the caller would never have even heard of it.

      Now fast forward. The Trayvon Martin murder was such a big news event that obviously, if there was someone in Miami who wanted to give information to O’Mara that would support a real search into DeeDee’s background for evidence of pathological lying, or evil-doing, or even evidence of lying or distortion about her contact with the Trayvon killing, he would have had it long ago. It would have come to him by any number of ways. Clearly, there was time enough and publicity enough for it to happen.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I agree, and the same with Trayvon’s past. People would come out of the woodwork with this stuff, and they haven’t.

  14. Mandelbaum says:

    A little comic relief to lighten the mood. 😀 GF_Lts

  15. seallison says:

    Please read the FDLE statement from fogens best friend Osterman. He taught fogen how to shoot, etc. In his statement he says GZ pulled the gun from the holster, TURNED IT, and aimed.

    This tells me that there is one movement being ignored — the turning of the gun.

    If anyone knows how GZ operates his gun – it is his target practice buddy Osterman.

    I hope this extra movement comes out at trial because the turning of the gun tells us the shoot as he describes it is beyond impossible.

  16. creepytwins says:

    That makes sense to me. I always wondered why a skinny kid with no history of violence could beat up a heavier, full-grown man with a history of violence. I’m thinking that Trayvon never even hit GZ and that the kickback from the gunshot was responsible for the broken nose. GZ got the upper hand in the scuffle and shot the helpless kid in cold blood. I just give credit to Trayvon for putting up a fight.The poor kid didn’t stand a chance.

    With this new evidence, I think it’s first degree murder and GZ should face the death penalty.

    • ladystclaire says:

      I think so to, especially that he should be facing the DP instead of 35-life. he took the life of an innocent child and for that, he deserves having the state of Florida take his life.

      An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth!

      • Malisha says:

        OK, I’m signing in as a Jew this morning and I will give my disclaimer up front: What I say here is second-hand (taught to me by my Rabbi when I was a kid 60 years ago, not from primary source documents or independent scripture study) but I want to deal with the “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth” quotation that I hear very often.

        The section of the ancient Hebrew law that used these words, and these alleged metaphors (they were not metaphors, strangely enough) of eye for eye and tooth for tooth, were not about the appropriate punishments for wrongdoing or about the permissible acts of vengeance to be taken for injury. They were set forth in the portion of the law about how to behave towards “servants” who were, if you want to use modern social equivalencies, essentially slaves. What they said, in modern talk, is this: If you want to punish your slave, go ahead, but remember there is a cost to it. If you beat your slave and he loses the sight of one eye, you have to give him enough money that would be the value of a man having a good eye. If you beat him and he loses a tooth, you need to give him the amount of money that would be the value of having that tooth back. And an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth In a peculiar way, it made a kind of code akin to modern civil tort law into a rule of behavior for master to servant. It said, basically, “remember, the guy you own is still a human being and it is valuable to him to have a life, to have an eye, a tooth, etc., just like you.” It was a relatively (for the time period in which it was applied) humane and progressive concept.

        It didn’t mean, “if someone knocks out your eye, go knock his eye out; if somebody knocks out your tooth, go knock his tooth out, and etc.” That never worked and never can work, for the most part because whoever knocked your eye out was obviously stronger than you were! How you gonna knock his eye out now?

        • cielo62 says:

          Malisha~ I heard the same thing from my rabbi, back when I studied with a rabbi when I had considered conversion to Judaism. It’s a saying that denotes monetary compensation for injury to another. In the commentaries there are books and books as to how that is applied to servants, slaves or free men or women. No, it did not mean anything violent LITERALLY. But it means that the Law demands compensation in just measure for every harm one causes.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Malisha says it more eloquently and with her wonderful humor, but bear in mind that condemning prisoners to death is little more than state-sanctioned revenge murder. Our lives are short and precious, and we are all dead men walking. People who are jailed for long periods or for life learn far more than they would if dispatched to the next world. They have a chance for transformation. And you’re truly insulting lawyers like Mr. Leatherman who have long fought hard to save defendants from the death penalty.

    • Trained Observer says:

      A date with Tallahassee’s Old Sparky amid chants of “roast in peace” packs emotional appeal, But my preference for Fogen tends toward a slow rot life-term without parole.

      # Why risk a hung jury because of any juror’s fear of frying?

      # Why put the state through inevitable lengthy, costly appeals tied to any Murder1 DP? Let him quickly become a forgotten shut-in after his murder 2 appeals are quickly exhausted. .

      # Why hand Fogen’s disgusting brother or his whining parents opportunity to forge decade-long talk circuit careers fighting Fogen’s death sentence? Let them grow old feeling forgotten and ignored while bearing the burden of shame for their post-murder behavior.

      # Why dishonor Trayvon with the taking of another life, no matter how despicable Fogen has shown himself to be?

      • Trained……I like the idea of isolation for fogen. He would be all by himself, which is what he deserves…..alone…and eventually forgotten. I would like it even better it they would pipe in to his cell, Trayvon’s last screams. Play them at irregular intervals, 24-7.

      • cielo62 says:

        Trained Observer~ I usually support the DP, but I agree with you in THIS case. Getting GZ on death row would make him a martyr, to some degree, and he would still get celebrity status. Rotting, forgotten in jail would add to his mental punishment as well as his physical punishment. I might not be rich or famous, BUT I can get up and go almost anywhere I want, when I want, and even have alone time. GZ will never again have those freedoms.

      • racerrodig says:

        Amen brother….Amen.

    • Aunt Bea says:

      I have read of the kick-back injury possibility several places. I think the appearance of the injury would fit. Testing of the gun’s whatever (bolt/carriage assembly?) would/could bolster the premise.

      I can’t, in my mind’s eye, get GZ’s head in TM’s abdominal area.

      Well, I can, but it seems exceptionally awkward for either party.

  17. frank tv says:

    Are u just a fucking jackass niggra lover. Cutcher and selma said they saw nothing just heard a kid crying u motherfucking shit stirrer

    • See today’s article (Sunday 2/10/13) for my response to this comment:

      Featuring: Frank Taaffe

      • racerrodig says:

        “Featuring: Frank Taaffe” Probably because I see what he is, the best thing that would feature Frank “The Racist Tank” Taaffe is an Obituary……Sorry……….That’s just the anger in me and not the real racerrodig.

      • Wow, I don’t know how I missed that one….he sounds a bit po’d. I read the Sunday comment…..”just heard a kid crying”……says it all, doesn’t it? If stirin’ up the shit helps to make the truth slip out of these heaps of trash…we’ll just have to keep on stirin’….

      • I can’t figure out what the “Y” at the end is for….secret code?….a curse?….Nah….ol’ daffy Taaffe probably can’t get his fingers to work well right now..can’t imagine why…..yes I can….. 😆 😆 😆

      • Malisha says:

        Here’s what the Y stood for:

        “YES I am a damn fool who can’t string together my desire to appear completely all American with the fact that racism and bigotry are not American ideals and every time I open my big mouth something floods out that stains my reputation worse than…than…than something you stir.”

        Or it stands for “Y — huh? gulp (glug glug glug) hey I thought there was more left in that bottle than THAT! Somebody’s been sneaking in here when I leave my doors open and stealing my booze! If I wasn’t so short-sighted I’d shoot them mufuckers.”

        Or it stands for “Y. ‘F you donnow what it means, I ain’t gonna tell you. ‘F you plant Y, you fucking GET Y. See?”

        Damn, this is fun. I could write dialog for Frankie all day.

  18. Judy75201 says:

    One thing that is absolutely, positively proven is that Trayvon never straddled fogen. He is so going to jail for this murder. There is no way out, no spin will do, no fake reasonable doubt will be possible. I’m so glad about that.

  19. Tzar says:

    Can you imagine how scared this child had to have been, not knowing what the fuck is going on and why this lunatic has a gun in his face?

    actually listen to the screams and you may not have to 😦

    • Judy75201 says:

      I can not only imagine it, I can hear it in the terrified screams, too. It’s sickening. What fogen did is vulgar and hideous. Thanks for the Papa vids.

    • Jun says:

      It would be scaring anyone, you do not even have to be a kid, but being a kid puts you in a disadvantage in the situation

      I’d be creeped out to if some crazy creepy stranger started stalking me by car, and then I try running away, lose him, and then notice the creepy stranger is still trying to get me, when I am just trying to walk home

      It sounds like Trayvon did not expect it to occur since he just tried walking the rest of the way and talking to w8 on the phone

      Personally I’d be thinking to myself “God damn, I just want to get home with some bloodclot Skittles and Ice Tea. This creep is str8 trippin…”

      • William Walton says:

        Or Jun, you could be like one individual I worked with at Amoco who was an former-Green Beret and former-Nam who would have said to GZ “Boy Bring It On”. He taught the girls in the office self defense. One girl got grabbed by a guy in the unlighted parking lot and her self defense kicked in. She came back with her left elbow bruising the attackers wind pipe and came back with her left heel to the crotch. Left him immobilized on the parking lot. Cops the next morning asked her how she learned self defence and she pointed to the individual who taught her. His response was learned compliments of the U.S. Army. See the slight scar on my kneck, was grabbed by a Gook, slammed and broke his wind pipe with my elbow, he fell to the ground, I grabbed his head and broke his kneck, and then I bayonneting his three times. One of the cops asked, is that not overkill, to which he responed No That is Called WAR!

    • Tzar…..Not to mention fogens ugly, angry face screaming at Trayvon. That poor kid had no idea of who this monster was or why he was doing this to him. But that last terror filled scream before the shot is absolutely gut wrenching… And I will say it…………. I hate that mofofogen!

      • I don’t often use the word hate towards humans……liver & onions yeah…..not humans…….In this case I make an exception.

        He wanted to be a badass & a tough guy……he’ll have his chance pretty soon to show just how tough he is…..worthless POS

      • racerrodig says:

        FogenPhoole and his PhuckingPhantasy’s More hateable every day.

  20. colin black says:

    Both stradling an upright can be correct .
    It was a struggle foggen had a grip on Travons hoodie an tshirt .
    He held on tight an Trayvon pulling away when foggen raises the gun shoots Trayvon centre chest carefull not to hit his own left hand.
    As he shoots Trayvon falls backwards .
    Foggen still holding onto his hoodie goes foward with him.
    An as Trayvon lands on his back foggen is already down on top of him.
    Flips his body over to make sure there no exit wound an raises up an walks toward the T holding his head.

    • William Walton says:

      colin black; Bravo, you understand what I have been stating about the Physics Laws of Gravity and Momentum. This is most impressive to me.

  21. esentrick says:


    • lady2soothe says:

      I don’t believe Trayvon was shot while standing up. Somehow he ended up on his back on the ground. I feel GZ was leaning over him, slightly bent at the knees, Trayvon’s shirt in hand. When the bullet entered Trayvon’s chest, natural reaction is to grab at the offending pain. Easy at this point for GZ to quickly flip Trayvon over with hands still clasped to his chest; GZ dropping down on top of Trayvon and finishing off the job by asphyxiation.

  22. I had a hard time finding these, but this is what GZ’s boots looked like the night of the shooting, another indication that he was on top of Trayvon. Most of the pics of his boots are absent from searches.

  23. seallison says:

    Yelling for help vs SCREAMING FOR YOUR LIFE:

    • Judy75201 says:

      She has posted some of the most compelling videos ever about this case. She is a force that will not be denied, I think, and I am grateful to her for the work she has done. I don’t recall if anyone has posted her vids before on this site. Nice post!

    • esentrick says:

      Thanks Seallison for the post! The video was awesome.

    • bettykath says:

      Great post. What else has she done and where can we find it?

      • I cannot BEAR to listen to this………This young man begging for help not knowing if he’s going to die or not….

        The only thing it does for me is to want to get past fogens security…
        Nuff Said

      • seallison says:

        bettykath – go to YouTube. She is xy11xy and has many great videos about this case. ps — another Canadian.

      • Looolooo says:

        What a coincidence! I literally just finished complimenting her (xy11xy) on one of her youtube video comments section. She has some of the most poignant, thought provoking, informative, and accurate video’s out there. She first hooked me with her “George Zimmerman- King of the Malcontents” video. I’ve invited her here a few times, hopefully she’ll grace us with her wisdom….soon.

        • racerrodig says:

          Her video is just fabulous. Her thoughts on being neighborly just go right over the head of clowns like FogenPhoole.

          I’ve been a homeowner since 1979, 3 different places and we had an issue once in awhile here and there. The 1st thing I did was say something to the people involved. Calling the cops, and my dad was a cop, was the last resort because it’s not always needed and makes enemies real fast of the neighbor.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        She has a lovely voice and a nice artistic bent.

    • Judy75201 says:

      MMP, there is only one very very short part that plays Trayvon’s screams. It’s worth a listen (and I believe she has many vids that are even more compelling than this one).

    • Rachael says:


    • Trained Observer says:

      Compelling and then some. Thanks for posting.

    • racerrodig says:

      Very Powerful.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @ Seallison –

      Is this your work? Riveting! I caught the Canadian accent. Are there more of these?


      And did ANY 911 call get GZ’s final words to TM – “Don’t move!” etc.?

      TRayvon’s tragic last words: “Ow, Ow.”

      Of course at that point in his early interview GZ has heard no 911 calls, right? And “First Flashlight Jon” does not report those words of GZ, does he?

    • Looolooo says:

      @Seallison/grahase xy11xy’s video is a far cry from the abominable video, The truth about Trayvon Martin, that some Canadian guy posted here on yesterday’s post. I’ll take this Canadian gal over that Canadian guy….. any day. 🙂

    • mmpat…..That last scream before the shot wasn’t just the sound of someone begging for help, that was an absolute terror filled scream of a helpless kid with a gun pointed right at him. And I agree with your last statement too…makes me feel the same way.

      • jm says:

        That was great piece. Zimmerman and his family members who are covering/lying for him disgust me.

        I hope the prosecution has access to this.

      • kllypyn says:

        That was the terrified scream of a kid who knew he was about to die. T believe he said “you gonna die tonight motherfucker” because Trayvon couldn’t give him the answers he wanted.

    • Malisha says:

      Very important point at the end of the video: Criminals don’t scream for their lives when they are attacked; but innocent 17-year-old boys? They most certainly do.

    • xy11xy says:


      I don’t know what to say, really. I had no idea my video was posted here, or that you guys were coming to my channel.

      This case matters to me because I have a black boy of my own.

      Thanks for the kind words, and the support.


  24. Nefertari05 says:

    Thank you, Professor. I understand much better now, thanks to you and some of my fellow posters who have had the time and patience to explain, what is for me, a difficult issue to understand. I have a learning deficit in the maths, it’s particularly troublesome with regard to angles and such (fractions, square roots, formulas, but I digress). Having it explained to me in plain English is the only way for me to grasp certain concepts. As I once told my statistcs professor, explain it to me like I’m four yrs old. That (and a lot of office hours help) was the only way I squeaked by. So, thank you and all my fellow posters who took the time to do so. I appreciate it.

    • SearchingMind says:

      You are very graceful and upright. It is a blessing to be around people with your personality and mindset.

      • Nefertari05 says:

        Thank you, SearchingMind. The open acceptance of people such as yourself, make it easy to ask for extra help when it’s needed. When I was coming up that wasn’t always the case. It’s people like you, the other posters and the professor who make a difference.

  25. ay2z says:

    What happened to the theory of both upright ? Why, if witnesses saw the shooter stand up and also saw the scene at the time of the short or immediately afterwards, did no one see the shooter turn the victim over, and result in both hands beneath Trayvon?

    • Judy75201 says:

      Good questions. I think part of the problem with witness accounts is timing. Something can take 5 seconds to happen, but a witness might perceive it as a split second. I still lean heavily toward both being upright, except that doesn’t account for the water and grass on fogen’s boots.

      • William Walton says:

        The most important part of witness accounts is Did I Really See What I Thought I Saw? Most of what happened in the shooting of TM happened in a very short period of time. Also one must keep in mind that it was very dark and may have been raining. Most actions were based on sound. Such Then, Did I see what I thought I saw happen or was it what really happened.

    • I originally subscribed to the both upright scenario and only recently changed to this scenario with the defendant on top straddling Trayvon.

      I believe Piranha Mom (Patricia) was the first person here to propose this theory.

      I changed because none of the witnesses saw them standing and Trayvon would have been able to kick and throw punches if they were standing, assuming the defendant was gripping the hoodie with his left hand and the gun with his right hand.

      • Jun says:

        The issue is the only way Fogenhats could have straddled and shot is if, he sat on the waist area of the victim’s body, otherwise, the forensic readings would not be what they are, considering the physical space

        I dont feel he necessarily pinned his arms, but to actually be scientifically aligned to what we know of the forensic and ballistic readings of the shirt and chest wound and trajectory, this would have to be the case

        Another factor you have to look at is the witnesses saw him straddled onto the victim’s back, and pinning the arms, would be rather strange for him to flip the victim over

        You also have to look at the fear factor that a gun was pointed at the victim, and there’s not much he can do, especially an untrained kid with no experience fighting

      • Malisha says:

        I don’t think an ordinary person can kick and throw punches when he is frozen in fear, though. We think of these things when we see choreographed fight scenes on TV but we can’t do them when we’re terrified unless we’ve received lots of training.

      • William Walton says:

        Prof: in reading the responses, I get the feeling that people feel they are dealing with a static situation. However, if one thinks about it, this was a very dynamic situation. TM was struggling to escape while the crazy man GZ was holding on to restrain him. Now, addressing the scenario of the defendant on top straddling Trayvon, GZ could have easily moved his left hand from the left area of TM’s hoodie to the right area of TM’s hoodie such that he did not have to be concerned about shooting his left hand. However, as stated earlier, GZ came up behind TM and TM turned around asking why are you following me? GZ became beligerant and TM turned around and began to walk away. This pissed off GZ so he grabbed TM by the left side of TM’s hoodie and turned him around to face him. TM saw the weapon and screamed. That is why GZ by his own statement had to shoot to avoid shooting his own hand because it was in the way. With regards to the slight blood stream on GZ face, keep in mind that GZ was leaning over TM after he shot him. I do hope that samples of the blood on GZ’s face was colledted for DNA analysis. When treating oil and gas wells, we obtain samples of all fluids as well as solids. It is hoped that all the forensics will be addressed at trial.

  26. Donna Flores says:

    Did we ever see Trayvon pants to see if they had any grass stains or mud since he had the lighter jeans. The jeans many hold the clue to some of our questions.

  27. cielo62 says:

    Another lie, blasted away with forensics. GZ didn’t even have any bruises.

  28. This article needs to somehow appear as an open thread on the CTH or on Talk Left. It would be very interesting to see how, when given these very specific, articulate assertions, any GZ supporter can refute what is written in this post.

    I am sure Corey’s office has its own group of experts who have come to the very same conclusions. Just in case, someone needs to email this article to the team.

    Has O’Mara even seen this information written in black and white? This article needs to be posted on his website now. I want to know what his response would be.

    My eyes are wide open, and I’m speechless. Excellent post!

    • Nefertari05 says:

      I agree. My own difficulty is that I could not grasp the specifics of this concept,that made the Trayvon on top position impossible. I was making this argument to fogen’s supporters, by simply parroting what others have posted without truly understanding it, or simply avoiding the issue entirely.

      By having it laid out, in clear and concise terms, in language easy to understand, i believe it would be hard to find someone who could refute the professor’s conclusions, on any factual basis. Nevertheless, it sure would be interesting to see them try.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Diary & all –

      We went over all this months and months ago. The entire discussion. New students on the blog missed all that if they have not gone back to last summer and read the archived discussions.

      When I get time, I go back and re-read, to see how newly released info fits.

      There’s absolutely nothing new to the assertions that GZ was over Trayvon on the ground, vis-a-vis the vertical shooting. I think this is the third time we’ve reviewed it in all the same detail as we did in the past.

      Gentlemen, and all those who feal GZ immediately drew his unstable Kel-Tek as soon as he got out of the shruck and was zipping around with it until his encounter with TM, I cannot concur.

      If GZ was afraid to go down the unlighted T, how brave would he be running around on wet grass with a loaded Kel-Tek exposed that could jam after the first shot? He had called the cops. He wantes to be seen running around a reidential neighborhood with his gun out? And no quarry in sight for an alibi?

      The guy doesn’t have three hands. At all times he was running with the tactical flashlight in one hand, until he dropped it at the death site.

      He kept his left hand free, using it for grabbing – or any action. Having grabbed Trayvon, with his dominant left hand and wresting with him, he could drop the flashlight – or it was knocked out of his right hand during the final ground-rumbling. I think he discarded it after the grab because he needed a free hand to make other (painful on Trayvon) moves, and to get himself rotated to the on-top posiion.

      That gave him the free right hand to unholster the gun at the final moment.

      This is the point: if he were running with the tactical flashlight in one hand (which we know is true, noting its final location) AND with the Kel-Tek in the other, not only has he no third hand for grabbing, he is incredibly unstable on wet grass in a dark area.

      Why would he risk having the gun grabbed away or dropping it?

      The tactical flashlight is a “sorta” weapon and it gves him a free hand to work with and grab and balance.

      Once he grabs onto the fronts of Trayvon’s shirts, he can ditch the flashlight.

      He does. He now has his quarry.

      He is now FREE TO DRAW AND SHOOT.

      He does.


      • Dave says:

        I disagree on one point. I think it more likely that the killer was ready to go for his gun from the moment he left his shrtruck and would have carried the flashlight in his left hand so his shooting hand would be empty and ready to draw. I believe that this video illustrates basically what he did (or at least intended to do).

      • Rachael says:

        Very interesting Dave!

      • Rachael says:


      • William Walton says:

        You are giving GZ no credit for his stupidiy. He drew it early because he knew he would catch up with TM. I find it interesting that your comments propose that you are some kind of authority. My question is authority in what? I always got a kick out of you referring to me as the man of science. Now then from a scientific stand point, you made the statement from one of my statements, that how did the blood flow downward. It is very simple Watson, GZ leaned over and searched TM’s body and by the force of gravity, the blood flowed forward to the front of his face. You listen only to what witnesses say they saw or thought they saw. Wrong lady, the blood flowed forward because GZ was leaning over TM after he was shot and killed. If investigative, your question should have been; where did the blood come from?

      • Lynn says:

        @PirahnaMom The flashlight GZ carried had a strap attached to it. He might have carried it on his wrist. Who knows?

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @ Lynn,

          We can never know the minutae of what happened to every piece of evidence during the chase/encounter/killing. If it were looped on his wrist, it would not easily dislodge because of GZ’s fairly hammy hands (even at his weight in those days. He could have slipped it off and dropped it – we don’t know. By itself, it can serve as a mini-baton weapon. But even though he thought it would not work, though, he didn’t discard it. He’s a parsimonious dude, so I don’t see him willingly abandoning a valuable. But we just don’t know.
          My primary consideration for his not running gun-in-hand is the inherent danger of this, especially on a dark night, on slick surfaces. Easy to get injured (by shooting yourself or otherwise)or shooting up the neighborhood.

          Although I had been warned, I had to learn this myself by painful lesson. As a result, you will never see me on “Dancing With the Stars.”

          Also running gun-in-hand, though you see it all the time in the movies, is too easy an opportunity his gun could be siezed – he was expecting Trayvon to be a criminal. That would make Trayvon street smart at grabbing a weapon in hand-to-hand wrestling.

          But, he could have transferred the Kel-Tek from holster to pocket to keep it more readily available (if pocket were deep enough it would not drop out)- especially where the dropped keychain-flashlight was dropped. He just needed to have it handy.

          I just don’t see the early moments of the wrestling in the grass, and the earlier stalking, done gun-in-hand. I think that would have been a lesson Osterman drilled into him.

          On the other hand, George’s full-time career in lying tells me that when he said, “To tell you the truth” (or, “Honestly”) “I forgot I had the gun with me” probably meant “I was fully armed and prepared to fire two seconds after I exited my schruck.”

      • Lynn says:

        So true. I don’t see him drawing his gun as soon as he leaves the truck, but I do think he drew it (or had a hand on it like the way an officer approaches a stopped car) by the time he confronted Trayvon. I also feel that the injury inside of Trayvon’s finger could have been from grabbing or gripping the flashlight. It is pronged at the tip. If Fogen stuck it up in his face to blind him, Trayvon might have grabbed it and pulled it off of Fogen’s arm.

      • William Walton says:

        Lady, when you were Patricia, you were the one who contended that both TM & GZ were rocketing around on the ground. They were not. It would be impossible for GZ to extend his right arm to avoid shooting his left hand unless they were standing. Ask yourself, why would not GZ move his left hand from the left side of TM’s hoodie to the right side of TM’s hoodie so he would not have to worry about shooting his left hand when he had TM Subdued?

  29. Judy75201 says:

    @Cercando. But wouldn’t he nevertheless get some grass and wet stains on his pants? It just doesn’t seem possible that he wouldn’t. Just as the lack of grass/stains on the back of his clothing convinces me that Trayvon was never on top of him, the lack of the same thing anywhere but the toes of his boots makes me doubt the ground struggle. For the time being, I still believe Trayvon was shot while both were upright.

    But then again, a witness said fogen straddled Trayvon after he was shot, with Trayvon positioned on his stomach, and fogen moved Trayvon’s arms to his side…and yet there are still no stains on his pants.

    I’ve got to have this wrong somewhere.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Thoughts: the grass could’ve got onto the toes of Z’s boots when he was on Trayvon’s back after shooting him.
      There is fiber analysis of the clothing that has been ordered but hasn’t been released into public evidence. This could show if there was an exchange of fibers between Z’s clothes and Trayvon’s that could enlighten us. Imagine if there were fibers from Z’s pants on the arms of Trayvon’s hoodie. Or fibers from Trayvon’s clothes in the treads of Z’s boots. Or, there is debris embedded in Trayvon’s clothing both front and back, and nothing at all embedded in Z’s clothes. The part of the story told by the clothing hasn’t been told yet.

      • Judy75201 says:

        Thank you, Cercando. I did not know that there was fiber evidence that has not been released. I need to stop where I am in my thoughts on this and just wait for that. Thanks.

      • seallison says:

        The evidence from the pants of both fogen and Trayvon having not been releases is puzzling.Instead of going after ping logs, etc.. Why is the defence not asking for evidence from the pants. I am sure the pants hold the true story.

        Just a thought (and a morbid one at that). If Trayvon was on top when he was shot, would he not have let go of his bodily functions. Would he not have peed in his pants and would that not have gotten on Fogens chest or belly or whatever.

        • Xena says:


          If Trayvon was on top when he was shot, would he not have let go of his bodily functions.

          Not immediately. That happens after the body organs completely shut down.

        • cielo62 says:

          seallison~ you make an excellent point. MAYBE that’s why GZ was allowed to change his pants at the cop shop? It WOULD be indicative of a GZ-straddling position.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Perhaps not right away, seallison., since he didn’t die immediately. His bladder and bowels would not necessarily relax completely until the point of death, and that may have been when Fogen was holding him down or just afterward.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Autopsy showed urine in the bladder.

      • seallison says:

        Maybe the grass on the boots happened when he slid on the grass and fell into something causing his injury. Maybe trying to round a corner at the bushes on wet grass. Hmmm

      • Lynn says:

        Thinking about the debris on one boot front but not on pants knees…I just had a lightbulb moment!
        I have had a knee replacement and am overweight. If I sit on the ground it is not pretty watching me get up. I can’t just pop up. I roll to one side and bring one leg up under me indian style. I then keep my bad leg straight while I put hands in front of me and shove my butt directly in the air, pushing up with my arms. My knees don’t touch the ground and the toe of the leg I bent is smooshed into the ground while the other toe never touches. I plant it flat and push up to standing and get my balance.
        This might have been the case if Fogen fell on his back.

    • William Walton says:

      Judy75201, I have stated before that both TM & GZ were in a standing position when GZ pulled the trigger. Many observers treat this as a static situation. It was not but was a dynamic situation. GZ approached TM and TM turned & asked why he was being followed. TM turned to walk away when GZ grabbed the left part of TM’s hoodie with his left hand and turned TM around to face him with weapon drawn. TM seeing the weapon began to scream. With GZ grasping TM’s hoodie with his left hand he had to aim over his left arm to fire the fatal shot such that he did not shoot his own hand while TM was trying to escape. With TM being shot, he became like a 150+ pound rock that GZ was holding on to. Thus, both would fall to the ground. With GZ being the live entity he would have been dragged down and forward with his boot toes being drug in the wet grass. Thus, the debris embedded in his boot toes. The Physics Laws of Gravity and Momentum apply to this situation.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @ William –

        But ALL the factors have to join in: the scenario you have always cited consistently omits the blood trails on GZ’s head – a head facing downward and forward for the time of the “ooze and drain” – the tme of the draw and the shot.

        Plus one factor truly unique to this case: Zimmerman’s penchant for transwerring actions HE DID to SOMEONE ELSE, and vice versa.

        GZ’s been doing it for a long time. Dig back in the evidence dump for the report on the restraining order made by the early girlfriend. Next day, GZ files a restraining order against her: citing the same damned domestic violence. This guy mimics old movies, old domestic violence, etc. He’s not Teflon, he’s carbon.

        So when George says “somebody did this terrible thng to me” and nowhere is it physically possible, then it’s time to look at “Could the REAL truth be that GZ did it to the OTHER guy?”

        GZ told his father and brother that TM kneeled on his arms. RJGJr. told Piers Morgan that story — Trayvon was so meeeeean before beating up precious George!

        In the early days of ths blog it was easy for all of us to buy into an encounter at the T, as GZ positioned it, then an escape and run and re-capture (or slip & recapture) 40 ft. to the south of the T, and a vertical killing as you describe.

        Easy as pie to deduce that.

        Then all the minute details started to emerge.

        I have always predicted that the trajectory of the bullet will be the definitive factor in this case.

        But to tie up the lose ends, I am waiting patiently for the fibers.

        Which, if they are exculpatory, they have
        to release. But — if that evidence is there as I sense it is, they can “keep their pweder dry” and release it only when needed.

  30. Judy75201 says:

    So how did fogen manage to not have grass and wet stains on his knees, but does have them on the front of his boots? That puzzles me. And the knee part is why I am not convinced (so far) he was ever actually on top of Trayvon on the ground in a struggle.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Knees on Trayvon’s arms, or Fogen was never on the ground. I wonder if Fogen hid from Austin before Austin chased after his dog.

      • looneydoone says:

        fogen squatting above/over Trayvon ,balancing with elbows on his knees, left hand grasping Trayon’s shirts, weapon aimed at Trayvon’s heart…extends right arm to avoid shooting his own left hand

        just my guess

    • looneydoone says:

      Squatting above/over Trayvon would be “straddling”. gz didn’t need to have his knees on the ground to do that.

      • Judy75201 says:

        That’s definitely a possibility, Looney. Thanks.

        • WAIT A MINUTE….

          Didn’t fogen in one of the interviews say he EXTENDED his arm before he pulled the trigger?

          How could he have extended his arm if Travon was mounted atop him less than an arms length away?

          • Xena says:

            Listening to the 911 call that captured the screams, and hearing GZ’s voice in the background using profanity as Trayvon screamed, there is a faint “help” that is cut-off by the gunshot. IMO, GZ jerked Trayvon up, using his clothes. When GZ fired his gun, the recoil hit him in the nose and with the weight of Trayvon’s body falling, GZ fell too and quickly turned Trayvon’s body over face down.

            Lab reports found debris in Trayvon’s hoodie, sweatshirt, socks, and shoes. It only reported finding debris on the toe of GZ’s left shoe.

            There is no lab report for the pants of either party.

      • bettykath says:

        Mountain Man

        at 7:01:30 you can see the defendant explaining how he shot Trayvon. He shows once that his right arm was extended but at least twice that his elbow was bent.

      • Tee says:

        I heard Fogen say in one of LLMPapa videos ” I was on him, I know I was on him.” I’m not sure if he literally was on Trayvon or he was referring to his gun being on Trayvon. Either way, if it was his gun than he was lying about ” I didn’t think I hit him”. Or if he was on Trayvon, than he was lying about being straddled. I didn’t watch the video statement because looking at him that long makes me physical sick so maybe one of you can enlighten me.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Yeah, you are right, Betty. And if his elbow was bent, the ‘straight shot to the chest, front to back and without angles’ becomes absolutely inexplicable. Nothing Fogen says makes sense.

    • ay2z says:

      if straddling iwth bent knees, that’snot the most stable for balance and balanced position, is it? How much strength do you need in leg muscles to maintain that before you put knees to the ground?

      • looneydoone says:

        It was just a matter of seconds before fogen fired the fatal round into Trayvon’s heart.
        I’m able to maintain that position for several minutes. Anyone else ?

    • tonydphotog says:

      Since the photos at the SPD were taken a few hours after the murder, Fogen’s pants had time to dry (or at least appear dry). I can see him brushing off any grass he finds on his pants, but not really giving his shoes much thought. I wouldn’t expect to see any mud because the grass is St. Augustine.

      • Judy75201 says:

        I can see that as a possibility, too. This is my major hurdle to get over in believing their was ever a struggle on the ground. Thanks.

      • cielo62 says:

        tonydphotog~ OK, what you say sounds reasonable, EXCEPT for the MUD. Dried mud would have stayed on his pants, and would show up on the investigative work on the fibers. Alas, that’s info we DON’T have available.

      • cielo62 says:

        tonydphotog~ I mean,if GZ was SHIMMYING like he says, and it had been raining all day, he would have SOME mud on his butt.

      • tonydphotog says:

        cielo62-I agree with what you say about the investigative work on his pants fibers would more than likely show dried mud.

        I was only referring to the visual aspect, that his pants might not have noticeable mud stains.

        • cielo62 says:

          tonydphoyog~ I agree then, about the “noticeable” part. I mean, the original leaked videos of GZ entering the cop shop didn’t even show wounds on the head! Actual forensic testing is more accurate than photos. Alas, we don’t have those fiber results.

      • tonydphotog says:

        cielo62- Oh, yeah. I forgot about the SHIMMYING. My bad!

      • Tee says:

        No, this man has training he put his shin area right on Trayvon arms. His shoes had grass & wetness on the tip consistent with that position, he was on top of this kid. @ Judy, Trayvon is African American we don’t bruise that easily.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @ Judy75201, please see my reply to you, above.

      Thank you.

    • William Walton says:

      Judy, GZ did not have grass or wet stains on his knees but does have them on the front of his boots because both TM & GZ were standing. GZ shot TM while both were standing. TM became a rock of 150+ pounds pulling GZ down. By the force of Momentum, GZ would have been dragged forward pulling grass and debris into his boot tips. Common law of Physics. My postings are not to make people feel dumb because they do not understand the laws of Physics and Science, but is to more try to educate them on how these Scientific laws can come into play to explain what could go on in situations like this. Do I believe these Scientific Laws came into play? Most Definently!

  31. Judy75201 says:

    This link will take you to W18’s 911 call and more. I’m sure you’ve all seen and heard it before, but it’s good to revisit evidence sometimes.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Hi Judy, please see what I quoted above in reply to what you wrote.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Judy 75201

      While W6 “John” described some early wrangling in the grass, yes, debris would get on both TM and GZ, and was reported, unanalyzed — the reason GZ has no grass STAINS on his knees is that he was kneeling on “Slim’s” arms to imprison him. This is a standard hold.

      It would work well for GZ – he has a stocky build, so you could expect him to have kneecaps the side of saucers. But he has two, so his 207 lb weight (weighed at Sanford PD) is divided – but 100 lbs per arm as a pressing weight is excruciating and would contribute to the terrified. agonizing cry.

      However, considering GZ’s stocky, fleshy kneecaps, they may not have resulted in bruising of Trayvon’s arms,
      because the knees are so big and the damage diffused. But the PAIN would be excruciating

      (Find a 207 lb. neighbour and try it!)

      Both blood/DNA and fiber analyses were requested by the M.E. To date, only the blood/DNA analysis has been released.

      Still waiting for the fiber analysis.

      Because GZ was wearing jeans (cotton) and TM wearing what looked like tan chinos (cotton) I am waiting to see if the coton fibers (which fluff off easily, especially to attach to another cotton fabric) is established – GZ’s pants fiber transferred to Trayvon’s sleeve fabric.

      In addition, the blood trails on GZ’s head are consistent with leaning over Trayvon and carefully placing the gun while avoiding shooting his other hand.

      The congealed blood pattern is totally, completely, impossible if GZ were UNDER Trayvon because the wet St. Augustine grass would have blurred or washed away most of the blood from the back of the head. None of that congealed blood is blurred. Edges are crisp.

      As to Zimmerman holstering right-back to cross draw with his left, as opposing holstering right back to draw with his right, I expect he would normally draw left, but fire with BOTH hands, with kneees flexed or body prone – because the Kel-Tek is lightweight and does not have the mass to absorb much of the energy that subsequetly results in recoil. (I use a 9-shot Colt-style revolver in the field; heavy with almost zero recoil.

      The two-handed fire position is always necessary with the Kel-Tek to avoid “Kickback” and because he had only one hand available (right, non-dominant hand) he couldn’t keep it from kicking back into his face – I’m guessing it hit the bottom lip area.

      I believe the bleeding came from inside the lip when it was smacked into GZ’s lower teeth (or upper if his mouth was closed) and the edges of his teeth broke the skin. That’s a very vascular area with amply blood supply close to the surface (look at your own inner lip).

      If he wanted to smear some of it around his upper lip and his nose, it would have been easy to do. I’m inclined to think the scrapes to the back of the head came from the final wrestling and GZ was scraped over an irrigation sprinkler head in the grass or he ran smack into shrubbery while running through one of the openings between building “pods” to encounter TM near the dogwalk, and challenge him by grabbing his shirt front.

      While I have not heard this myself (I do not have studio-quality headphones), other students reported hearing GZ snarl “Stay still” or some variant of that order. I expect that was when GZ was drawing the Kel-Tek, and the grasping of the shirt was an attempt to immobilize Trayvon to secure a steady shot.

      This shows deliberate, debased conduct -unnecessary shooting in cold blood.

  32. elcymoo says:

    The pictures taken at the SPD later that night clearly show that the toes of his shoes look soiled and wet, and the heels don’t. You’d expect to see grass stains or mud on the heels if he’d been struggling to move out from under Trayvon on the ground. Also, I remember seeing one of the police officers, in that video of him entering the SPD after shooting, brushing something off the front of Z’s pants. That was evidence!

    During one of his interviews, I remember that when he described how he drew his gun and fired one shot, he extended his arm straight out in front of himself. I knew then that he was either on top when the shot was fired, or the two were standing erect.

    I think the Professor has it right – again.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I also think Fogen showed the world exactly how he shot Trayvon, with his arm fully extended.

      • racerrodig says:

        Exactly. During his “Reenactment” he showed how he put his arm out aimed and fired one shot. Then there was that disgusting shoulder shrug as if he says “….hey, what are ya gonna do….”

        • If he was on his back when he pulled the pistol……..his arm would be parallel to the ground And would have had to have been bent….as well as his shoulder….and twisting his wrist to draw the gun from it’s holster.

          @ YAHTC….Nolo probleemo….U’s my Buddy 🙂

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Oh, Pat…..I have been waiting up thread for you to come back and save me from my typo. Whew. You are here with you gracious response.

        Thank you, thank you, my friend.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


    • racerrodig says:

      Also keep in mind that the back of Trayvon’s hoodie and pants had grass and ground debris imbedded in them. Clearly at some point Trayvon was on his back.

  33. Jun says:

    Considering the forensics, Trayvon was definitely not leaning on Fogenhats, when Fogenhats fired the shot, because the motion of pulling the hoodie and undershirt away from Trayvon’s body and towards the defendant would have caused Trayvon to fall forward in motion, therefore, more proof as to the defendant’s lies

    I am not so sure about the defendant pinning Trayvon the victim’s arms down, unless he was sitting around the victim’s stomach area, thereby the forensic readings of the gun shot, would be possible

    The shot is central to Martin’s chest, through the heart, in a straight line…

    The defendant did end up straddling Martin’s back in the end

    I personally feel he shot the victim standing and then got on top of the victim…

    as you can see these are the forensic characteristics unique to this murder…

    1) The muzzle made contact with the hoodie and undershirt only

    2) The wound in the chest is intermediate range

    3) The hoodie and undershirt had to be pulled down, and to the left to line up with the gunshot wound and the holes in the hoodie and undershirt

    Now we add a factor to conclude 1 & 2, which is the shirts had to have been pulled away from the victim’s body when shot, and toward the defendant. The defendant pulled the victim toward him when he shot the victim. Then you add in the forensics of 3 into it.

    Whether standing or on top of Trayvon, since the defendant was pulling the victim toward him to shoot him, is the defendant would not let the victim go, not show any mercy, and actually pulled the victim toward himself to shoot him and kill him, and finished the murder by straddling the victim’s back, pinning the victim facedown, asphyxiating him. The victim is a 17 year old scrawny teenager who is only 158 pounds. The defendant is well over 200 pounds.

    • lady2soothe says:

      Everything GZ’s claims can be dis-proven by forensics and I’m confident the prosecution will be using mathematical science to prove Zimmerman is a murderer.

      The science of Forensic Ballistics is a matter of mathematics’. Crime scene reconstruction experts will prove trajectory, the path a moving object (bullet) follows through space as a function of time, and where the shooter and target were at the instant the shot struck.

      The prosecution will most likely use Multidetector computed tomography (MDCT) based calculations of wound paths and angles of trajectory which allows the ballistic expert(s) to analyze the trajectory in determining where GZ *REALLY* was and prove the *angle* of GZ’s hand in relation to Trayvon’s chest when he pulled the trigger to cause “the wound track passes directly from front to back” which means GZ shot Trayvon straight on and not at a prone angle as he claims.

    • TommysMom says:

      and finished the murder by straddling the victim’s back, pinning the victim facedown, asphyxiating him.

      Oh dear Lord what a horrible thought.

      • ladystclaire says:

        This is a horrible thought indeed and, to think that it was not enough for him to kill this kid but, he had to lie on him as well. this *imbecile* and POS should have his charges upgraded to first degree murder and the DP definitely should be on the table as well.

        He *executed* a 17 yr old kid and for that he has the support of *IGNORANT WHITE RACIST* who have less in the morals department than he does. I am really at a loss for words that really put these people’s actions into persective. what in the world have black people done to deserve such hatred from these people? GOD did not create this world for them only but, you would think he did by the way they hate people of other cultures. there is one thing about it though, African slaves nor their descendants *NEVER* asked to come here in the first place. as a matter of fact, these same racist whites, were bought here from another country as well. the only true and first inhabitants to settle in what is now The United States Of America, are the Indians.

        As I have said before, this country will *NEVER* be free of racism and hatred towards African slave descendants. these people pass their racism down from generation to generation. this is why they can see fit to support one who has murdered a 17 yr old African American child. SMDH

    • Jun…..I feel that you are right. I also feel that fogen already had his gun drawn, pointing it at Trayvon. And that Trayvon may have held his hands up in a *please don’t shoot* position which allowed fogen to easily grab Trayvon’s hoodie without Trayvon resisting.

  34. Judy75201 says:

    If fogen’s knees and shins were subduing Trayvon’s arms, I believe their would have been physical evidence on Trayvon’s body of that (i.e., bruising or such). Plus, in that scenario, fogen would be almost up to Trayvon’s chest. I believe they were both upright when fogen pulled the trigger.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Rather, on top of Trayvon’s chest.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      W18 saw gz (the heavier man) on top just before the shot.

      • Judy75201 says:

        But the knees of fogen’s pants showed no grass or wetness. That may have been what the witness thought they saw, but remember, what they saw was after the shot.

      • Judy75201 says:

        Sorry, I have to recheck because I see that you said before the shot, and I am remembering after the shot. It does get confusing, but I have to reread the witness statement.

      • Judy75201 says:

        Here is what AxiomAmnesia says about W18:

        “She thought she heard loud voices outside while she was upstairs in her bedroom. She didn’t hear voices for about 10 minutes or so, and then heard them again. She couldn’t see anything at first, then saw two men on the ground and someone calling for help from her window. She remembers hearing the pop noise. She thought she heard more than one pop. She then called 911. She saw a larger man standing a couple of feet from a body. She couldn’t see any faces. She couldn’t hear what the people were yelling about. She said she saw what looked like a “larger Hispanic man” as the person who walked away from the incident.”

        I don’t think this is clear on when she heard the shot or what she meant about “two mean on the ground”.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        This excerpt is from W18’s CNN interview with Ashleigh Banfield:

        BANFIELD: Where were you looking at the moment the gun fired?

        W18: I was looking at the two men on the ground and heard the

        BANFIELD: Could you tell who was on the top? Who was on bottom?

        W18: I know it was very dark, but I really would have to say that I thought it was the larger person that was on top.

        BANFIELD: And when the gunfire went off, what happened to the larger man who you think might be on the top? What happened at that moment?

        W18: Well, I would say a couple seconds later, that larger man was walking closer to where I could see him.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        This quote is part of the above excerpt and follows immediately after what I quoted above:

        BANFIELD: Before those a couple of seconds, at the moment the gun shot went off, what happened with the larger man?

        W18: Obviously the other man, the boy was dead and the other person got up and was walking away from the body.

      • Judy75201 says:

        I can buy fogen being “on top” with his knees on the wet ground if he had changed jeans and boots. Otherwise, I just can’t see it.

        I am very open to being convinced otherwise.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Transcripts of Witness statements can be found at Screamin Jay
        at this link:

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Fogen could keep knees clean by pressing knees into Trayvon arms while straddling him– grass however gets onto the toes of his shoes.

      • If you look at pictures of GZ’s boots taken at the police station, there is evidence of grass and mud on the front of the boots, not on the back of the boots..

      • Trained Observer says:

        Yahtc … thanks for witness statements link. Had read before, but it’s time for a refresher.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        You are welcome. 🙂

      • leander22 says:

        But the knees of fogen’s pants showed no grass or wetness.

        Unfortunately they did not pay attention to these little details. I doubt it would show in the police video.

        If Fogen was on top, someone had to turn the body of Trayvon over. After the shot -Selma and Mary watched him, wouldn’t they have noticed.

      • leander22 says:

        She didn’t hear voices for about 10 minutes or so, and then heard them again.

        I put very much attention on that little item initially, I think she later reduced it to 6 minutes. One can argue this estimate makes her an unreliable witness, and she must allude to something not connected with the event.

        Compare Witness #6 questioned by John Batchelor with Jim Post occasionally whistling in the background, or asking a question too (Axiom Amnesia Witness # 6, March 20, 2012, about 32:05 in)

        John Batchelor: From the time you hear the sounds as you indicate in today’s statement, initially, to the time you hear the rock, as you indicate, against the glass door how long do you think that was?

        Witness #6: I truely couldn’t even give an estimate. Hmm? Maybe five minutes. Maybe? Ahem, at that point I am really not keeping track, because I think it’s something else going on. Ahem, you know. But. Yeah I really don’t know how long, we first initially thought we heard something was out in our back and it was a lot louder.

        He also states that the police arrived 20 seconds after the shot, or after he overheard what GZ said to witness #13, obviously expecting police. Well if 20 seconds are more likely 2 minutes if not more?

        If we use the same measure the teachers 10 minutes are 1 min 40 seconds.

      • leander22 says:

        I did this too fast:

        we first initially thought we heard something was out in our back and when it was a lot louder.

        I guess there must be something missing here. He refers the exactly the same thing as the teacher.

      • towerflower says:

        Who else besides the first officer, says that they observed grass on fogen? Even in some of the police statements they only quote him as seeing grass on the fogen’s back..

    • lady2soothe says:

      It’s a forensic impossibility Trayvon could have banged GZ’s head on the pavement or even seen the gun. ….. It all comes down to forensics, ballistics’ and mathematical angles. *If* Trayvon was straddling GZ’s chest he would have had to be leaning over to grab GZ’s head. And *If* GZ was on the bottom. How could Trayvon see GZ’s gun?

      1) GZ’s chest would be in the way.
      2) Gz’s stomach would be in the way.
      3) Trayvon’s knees would be blocking the view of GZ’s gun.

      *If* GZ brought the gun up from the angle of his waist, first off his elbow would need to bend behind his back, then to position the gun directly on the point of entry, the bullet would have angled from Trayvon’s “chest” maybe close to his “heart” but not straight through (no angle) to his “back”. The bullet would have gone between his upper back and neck, NOT directly front to back.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        lady2soothe, your analysis is very good and covers the important details.

      • towerflower says:

        If you straddled the person in order to reach their head to either grip to smash on the ground or to hit them in the face you are sitting too high on the person to see this gun and it’s too awkward to try reach it if you felt it. If you sit further back to reach it and see it, you no longer have the reach to hit the person in the face.

  35. Romaine says:

    my comma is in the wrong spot should be it, at

  36. Romaine says:

    is it possible the defendant use his left hand / arm as a means of support to also guide his right hand while taking his deadly shot, this would also include holding on to trayvons outer shirt pulling Travyon towards him.

    I also wonder if trayvon was in the process of retreating when w6 yelled he was calling 911, Trayvon may have felt his cries for help were finally heard and he could now remove himself from the situation, but the defendant wasn”t having it at, which time the defendant pulls his gun restrains Trayvon and shoots

    • leander22 says:

      Yes maybe W#6 should really be the focus of our mistrust. The way the other side circles in on DeeDee Crump and family.

      It does not feel like a coincidence that the shot is fired so shortly after he goes back in. locks the door, goes upstairs, locks the door again (?) or am I exaggerating. When exactly does his call start? 17:18.00 But when exactly does he step outside. Why did nobody time his story? And Serino should have chattered with the neighbor so much in his timing efforts there. It feels useless, you do not walk as leisurely as they did under these circumstances. Notice she locks the door, before she goes upstairs.

      John’s drawings doesn’t support gz’s tale either. I think he puts them next to each other parallel on the sidewalk, while Fogen claims only his head was on the sidewalk.

      I guess everyone immediately disliked this guy, but I may have concentrated too much on the coward. I am pretty sure, “my financée” advised me … I am pretty sure they did CPR(?)

      CPR rings in my head, since he raises his voice so extremely, as if it was a question.

  37. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Exellent article, Professor!

    Someone on our Trayvon Team said that the holster is for right-handed draws. If gz had put on the holster for a left-handed draw, the gun would have sat between his body and the holster.

    I don’t have a link to the picture of it.

    • Dave says:

      That was probably me. Here’s a picture of the killer’s holster:

      It is designed primarily to be worn inside the waistband for concealed carry. It has a wide steel spring which can be attached to either side of the holster and is used to clip it inside the pants. As seen in the picture it is set up for a righthand draw from inside the pants.

      The most comfortable way to wear a gun in this manner (especially if one is going to be sitting down like one would be while driving) is to clip the holster just aft of the beltloop on the side of one’s pants. Try to picture (if it doesn’t make you too ill) a crossection through the killer’s waist. If his bellybutton is at the 12 o’clock position and his spine is at 6 o’clock, the gun would be between 3:30 and 4, Not quite underneath him if he was flat on his back but still hard to get at.

    • lady2soothe says:

      I’ve been saying this since the beginning:

      Based on my understanding GZ shot left handed as a general rule. The gun was carried on his right hip toward the back, inside his pants, facing forward in what is called a *Cavalry Draw*. This method is used to extract a pistol from a holster designed to carry the pistol butt- grip forward and crossdrawing with the left hand.

      GZ claims he shot Trayvon with his right hand, not even remotely possible. GZ would have had to flip the gun around 180 degrees while it was being tightly squeezed between Trayvon and himself.

      Rotate the wrist, placing the top of the hand toward the shooter’s body.
      Slip the hand between the body and the butt of the pistol, grasping the pistol’s stocks in normal shooting grip.
      Draw the pistol, rotating the wrist to normal orientation as the arm is brought up to shooting position.

      Drawing with this method would require sweeping your body with the muzzle of the gun as you rotate it after the draw. For a gentleman (obviously not GZ), wearing a jacket, a crossdraw is easier when one is seated.

      Keep in mind stress, danger, and adrenaline are not your friend when using a Calvary Draw because you have to think and maneuver very carefully to ensure you’re not sweeping yourself, and concentration will probably not be available when you are in a self-defense situation.

      GZ was not in a self-defense situation.

      Theory: If GZ lied (so what else is new) about using his right hand, when in reality he used his left hand (dominate hand) that would account for his bloody nose. The Kel-Tech 9’s shells release from the right side. Anyone shooting left handed would be hit in the face with the shell casing.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        But the clip attachment area on the holster was made to face right. Holsters of this type are either right-facing or left-facing.

        This was a right-facing……..right handed holster.

        You can’t put it on in a direction it was not created for unless you want the gun on the side of your body and not facing out.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        That is, unless you want the gun between your body and the holster.

        • lady2soothe says:

          @ You all have thoughtful … I not sure I’m understanding your comment(s)….

          1. But the clip attachment area on the holster was made to face right. Holsters of this type are either right-facing or left-facing.
          Ans: Yes I agree.

          2. This was a right-facing……..right handed holster.
          Ans: He had the grip facing forward

          3. You can’t put it on in a direction it was not created for unless you want the gun on the side of your body and not facing out.
          Ans: ????

          4. That is, unless you want the gun between your body and the holster.
          Ans: ????

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Well, let just say you had a wool flower on a piece of fabic that you could loop your belt through because the fabric has to slits for the belt to go through.

        There would be a right side and a wrong side to the fabric. The right side would have the wool flower on it.

        You would want to loop the belt through the fabric so that the flower would face out for everyone to see.

        You would not want to loop the belt through the fabric in such a way as the wool flower would face toward your body.

        Now, read all of this again but substitute gun for wool flower.

        • lady2soothe says:

          @ You all have thoughtful comments

          Okay, I see what you’re saying, no dispute there. But please forgive me as I’m not understanding what your original comment was referring to?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Now just pretend you are holding a holster with gun in it.

        Imagine turning the holster so the gun touches your body.

        This would be the wrong way to position it.

        Now imagine turning the holster so that it faces out away from you. This is the correct way to position it when putting it on.

        George had a holster that when positioned correctly…..the handle of the gun faced toward his right hand.

        It would not work to put it on in a manner to make the gun’s handle face left because a right-handed holster positioned that way would cause the gun to be touching the body and now facing out.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I wish a gun owner here would clarify this for us.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Maybe I am wrong?

        • lady2soothe says:

          Sorry it took me awhile between, baking cookies, answering the phone, dealing with my 79 yr. old Dad & finding the links!

          lol, that definitely would be helpful. Thank you for the links, much appreciated.

          I some did research several months back based on the reports/data/evidence etc. of GZ carrying the gun, concealed within his pants, and slightly behind his right hip with the grip facing outward/forward. If he did what he claims and drew the gun with his right hand it his arm/wrist/hand and elbow out and it would look like the photo in the first link. If he used his left (dominate hand) he would reach across his chest like in the 2nd photo.

          Scroll about midway down the page. (Although I don’t agree with the baby in the shot) This isn’t the same kind of holster but a depiction of the way the grip faced out/forward, even though he wore in inside his pants on the right and covered by the jacket.

          Again, not the same kind of holster and this photo shows this man’s gun more toward the back as opposed to side/back.

          Crossdraw: GZ carried lower and further back.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Osterman said Fogen shot with either left or right. And many left-handed people shoot right to avoid the shell ejection that goes to the right.

        • lady2soothe says:

          Exactly, my ex-husband was left handed as are my granddaughter & several friends and even though none (that I know of anyway) own guns, they do many things i.e. throwing balls, opening jars etc. right handed.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I’m pretty sure it’s been hashed out on several sites that Fogen wasn’t cross-drawing with his left hand and that he didn’t have the butt of his weapon facing out. That he drew right-handed and that the butt of the gun was facing in toward his back.. I think that’s one thing he didn’t lie about – he drew right, he extended his right arm to shoot as he pulled his left in and out of the way to avoid hitting it. He may have been holding Travyon’s hoody or hoody and shirt with the left hand as he pulled it back. Too bad he didn’t shoot his own hand, IMHO.

        • lady2soothe says:

          @ Two Sides….. I’ve heard various stories/theories about him using right hand/left hand. He claims right but he lies so much it’s hard to be sure. I think it’s totally conceivable he would use his dominate/left hand to hold Trayvon by the shirt for more strength and control and his right hand to pull the trigger.

      • bettykath says:

        In all of his speaking about the gun, he reaches for it on his right hip and with his right hand. I’m thinking about the interview before his voice stress test and the walk-thru. Remember how he twisted his arm holding Trayvon’s hand next to him while reaching for the gun?

        • lady2soothe says:

          @ bettykath …. First off allow me to say I enjoyed the blog yesterday featuring you. Even though I rarely post/comment I’ve read many of your posts over the months and find your perspective refreshing.

          I noticed GZ unconsciously reaching with his right hand, no fumbling or taking a moment to think about where or what he was grabbing during the reenactment, it was very natural, not in the least (IMHO) contrived.

          I can’t comment on the *twist* without going back and viewing the video. I see it in my mind but would rather not express an opinion at this moment.

      • racerrodig says:

        To everyone discussing the holster. i am a gun owner and was raised around guns. i have a very similar holster that was willed to me.

        For the record, the way FogenPhoole’s holster is setup, and to have it as he says with the holster inside his pants, the grip would be facing the center of his back. there is 0 possibility it could be drawn right handed as he says. he would have to juggle it quite a bit to get it turned around OR toss it in the air, catch it with his right hand aim and shoot. We know that didn’t happen.

        OR, he had drawn it earlier, way earlier than he says he did. That is more than likely what happened. I believe he had drawn it not long after he got out of his truck.

        • Here we go again….I agree……he already had his gun put when he confronted Trayvon…..If not drawn……his hand on it for a quick draw

          Never did believe that “reaching into the wrong pocket for my cell phone” Bullsh*t

        • lady2soothe says:

          @ racerrodig …. Ahhh hello, my 1st!

          Thank you for your gun ownership explanation! Trying to figure this out without ever having experience with a gun (okay maybe once 30 years ago on top of a roof in the middle of the night shooting into the ocean) or holster is difficult at best.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Seallison posted this down thread:

        seallison says:
        February 9, 2013 at 9:48 pm

        Please read the FDLE statement from fogens best friend Osterman. He taught fogen how to shoot, etc. In his statement he says GZ pulled the gun from the holster, TURNED IT, and aimed.

        This tells me that there is one movement being ignored — the turning of the gun.

        If anyone knows how GZ operates his gun – it is his target practice buddy Osterman.

        I hope this extra movement comes out at trial because the turning of the gun tells us the shoot as he describes it is beyond impossible.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Good comments, everyone.

        Thanks for joining in racerrodig, your gun knowledge is very helpful.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Oh, I am glad you are here, gz.

        So do you think that the reason gz had to turn the gun around (according to Osterman) is because the gun AND holster were Shellie’s?

        In other words, the holster was correct for Shellie’s shooting hand but not for gz’s and that is why he had to turn it around after pulling it out of the holster?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Oh my gosh. I was so in a rush to talk about gz I wrote gz instead of Pat!

        Don’t yell at me, Pat.

        Oh no!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Pat……do I need to take cover. Oh no. Bad girl…..bad girl, Yahtc!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        I’m sorry.

        Do you forgive me?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        MMP – It is quite possible that as paranoid and determined to catch Trayvon as Fogen seemed to be on the NEN call, that he did draw the gun when he and Trayvon crossed paths, that he wasn’t the cool guy reaching for his cell phone. Hence he lied about “forgetting” he was carrying the gun. After all, he had rain and the cover of night in his favor. What happened after that could have been a long struggle for the gun, or a struggle by Trayvon to get away.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        PS – that might also explain why Fogen never said a peep about being NW – he pegged Trayvon as a thug so quickly and drew his (Shellie’s) gun so early on that nothing but a confrontation could have ensued. Fogen tells bits and pieces of the truth, adding whatever embellishments he thinks will support self-defense.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I think you could be right about an early draw.

        Why would gz call 911 anyway when the two met up? The police would not be able to be there in 2 or 3 seconds.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks for your response down thread, Pat. 🙂

      • Erica says:

        Im like racedoig, I think it was drawn earlier, right before Trayvon started screaming

        • Xena says:


          Im like racedoig, I think it was drawn earlier, right before Trayvon started screaming

          Yes. The “I’m beggin’ you” followed by a several “NOOOO!” reasonably conveys that GZ pointed his gun at Trayvon.

        • lady2soothe says:

          I agree. My post was referring to fogen’s *if* we went by what he said. I think he pulled the gun out before he even left his vehicle or soon thereafter.

      • leander22 says:

        i have a very similar holster that was willed to me.

        racerrodig, can you please be so kind and explain it to me. When I saw it, I was puzzled only and moved on.

        I can go to an online shop which sells holsters and they all do make sense to me, nylon or leather. But this one doesn’t. I am simply completely unable to understand how the thing is fastened in the pants, what of it or what part of the weapon would show and how. Most are somehow attached to the belt, The only thing I can see is some type of Velcro to stick against the pants. Maybe? But can that really be? And what does hold the gun in there. Maybe I am blind. I simply have absolutely no idea how this thing could work

        • racerrodig says:

          There is a metal clip that slides on and the Velcro keeps the metal clip from moving around. Fogen had the holster inside his pants and the only thing that would be exposed is the very back of the gun, being that it is vertical. This is the worst way to carry a pistol as it is hard to draw in a combat ready position. The bottom of Fogen’s pistol was facing toward his left side and the holster was over his right butt cheek and to the outer half.

          Because of this FogenPhoole could NOT draw his pistol while on the ground. If he was able to pull it out he would have to be pointing it with the magazine facing up and the only way he could fire it would be with his pinky finger.

      • leander22 says:


        The IWB (In the the waistband or In the pant) holsters are available in Leather, Kydex and nylon, with and without retention straps. Law Enforcement officers have an additional requirement when purchasing an IWB holster. The holster will need to retain it’s form when the handgun has been drawn, as they may need to re-holster one handed. Where a civilian won’t have the need, because the only time the handgun should come out of the holster is if it is needed. At which time the police will confiscate it until the shooting investigation has been concluded.

        what are retention straps, and is the one Fogen uses one without such?

        To be quite honest it looks like much without anything. 😉

      • Dave says:

        Leander, here is a photo of the killer’s actual holster:

        The holster is shown sideways with the open top to the left and the bottom to the right. The smooth rectangular piece in the middle is a spring clip that is used to attach the holster to the waistband of the wearer’s trousers, normally inside. On this particular holster, the spring clip can be removed and placed on the opposite side of the holster for a person who shoots lefthanded. As it is set up in the picture, it would have been worn clipped to the right side of the killer’s trousers (probably just behind the belt loop at the side) with the butt of the gun pointing rearward.

        This holster does not have a retension strap which is just a strap, with a snap or Velcro fastener, that prevents the gun from falling out of the holster and makes it harder for another person to take it.

      • leander22 says:

        OK, thanks Dave, I did a side by side juxtaposing image and words and the words helped a lot, to understand.

        As it is set up in the picture, it would have been worn clipped to the right side of the killer’s trousers

        Two further questions if I may?

        The clip goes over the waistband and shows on the outside. That’s why it is moved in the 4 o’ clock position, so it does not show in the front? And since the clip shows anyway, it doesn’t matter that the holster and the gun slightly show there too? It’s under the jacked anyway. In other words, the holster would by used exactly as it looks now, the clip wouldn’t be moved upwards. It has to be higher up for you to able to easily grasp it.

        Does the clip, considering it can be moved to the other side, look different on the bottom than on the top?

        But that got me a lot closer to this odd thing. Thanks, Dave. 😉

      • leander22 says:

        Ooops: jacked, how did you sneak in there you little jack the ripper?

      • towerflower says:

        Dave is correct about the holster being set for a right handed pull. It is not uncommon for left handed people to shoot right handed with a pistol. The time when it comes into play is with a rifle or shotgun. Then you will find a stock made the opposite of a right handed rifle and the action of the firearms will eject shells from the opposite side away from the shooter’s face.

        Another thing to consider in shooting is the dominate eye. You might be left handed but right eye dominate. If that is the case you want to either shoot with the opposite hand to use your dominate eye or put a blinder over your right eye to force your brain to use the non-dominate eye or left eye. Once again this is important with the rifle or shotgun but not with the pistol due to the way it is held in front of you.

        Every move of GZ’s in the reenactment or police videos show him using a right hand pull. Even when he describes where the gun is located on his side. It was also set up to where the holster would have been concealed inside the waistband of his pants, not on the outside.

      • lady2soothe says:

        @ Racerrodig and Dave

        Thank you both for your explanations. So much easier to understand now.

        • racerrodig says:

          No Problem. The bottom line is that FogenPhoole is a telling PhuckingPhairyPhantasy’s.

          There is 0 chance he could have drawn his precious pistol the way he claims.

    • abbyj says:

      @YAHTC, Regarding your point about a left-handed holster draw, I recall gz stating in an interview with Singleton that he was left-handed. Didn’t LLMPapa cover the awkwardness of such a cross-draw in one of his videos? If gz had drawn it with a dominant-left hand, then the gun would have been facing upside-down. Does anyone recall the details of this? Thank you.

  38. MichelleO says:

    Doesn’t seem like his clothing is wet at all from all of the rolling around on the ground he was supposed to have done. Cloths are clean and neat. Inner shirt tucked into pants. Guy looks like he was just out going for a smoke—-not involved in the fight of his life.

  39. Bill Taylor says:

    that explains the grass on the front tips of his shoes and no marks on the heels…..

    • It also explains the pattern of blood on the back of Zimmerman’s head.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      It sure does, Bill!

    • In my opinion………..The fact that Trayvon had only one little scratch on the top of one finger and none of fogen’s DNA on his hands would seem to me that he didn’t even try to defend himself….why? Maybe Trayvon had his hands up (in a “don’t shoot” position) all the while that fogen had a gun pointed at him. A very angry fogen completely lost it when Trayvon couldn’t give him any satisfactory answers to his questions about the break-ins and then shot Trayvon when his anger reached it’s peak….as in…Take That You Thug……….after all, fogen was known to have anger issues…..this is where they became completely out of control.

    • kllypyn says:

      I don’t believe he was straddling trayvon when he shot him. unless he was standing over trayvon with his gun pointed straight down at his chest. But that doesn’t explain the discrepancy with a contact hole in his shirts and the intermediate range hole in his chest.he was holding on to Trayvon by his shirts while he was trying to get away.

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