I Support BettyKath

Friday, February 8, 2013

I support BettyKath’s right to ask the questions that occasionally cut against the grain of group-think. She thinks like a criminal defense lawyer and I respect that.

I not only respect what she says, I think we need to listen to her voice because she forces us to consider or reconsider our ideas and that can only make us stronger.

Trolls do not respect evidence-based thinking or exhibit any sign of intelligence organized by critical thinking skills. They believe the First Amendment gives them the right to make false statements, engage in character assassination and otherwise insult and attempt to derail thoughtful discussion. Their god is deceit and they are not welcome in my house.

BettyKath makes us think and she does it respectfully. She is welcome in my house and she should be accorded dignity and treated with respect.

Disagree with her as much as you like, but do not make it personal.

If someone disagrees with you and you take it personally, you are allowing your ego to get in the way.

Now is the time to let that go. No one is right all the time.

The scientific method consists of testing theories by experiment, attempting to reproduce the experimental results and peer review of both that is published in scientific journals. BettyKath is performing the peer review function that we should welcome rather than criticize.

We have an adversary system. Prosecutors build cases. Criminal defense lawyers attempt to tear them down. Judges referee the battle.

We seek justice for Trayvon in his case, so we are on the prosecution side. I hope to find a case where compelling evidence supports a defendant’s claim of innocence. We can share the experience of focusing on pulling loose threads to see what happens and delight when the prosecution’s case unravels and collapses.

In the Seattle-King County Public Defender’s Office where I began to learn the art of trying cases, we used to say the sweetest expression in the English language is “Not Guilty.” I hope we will have an opportunity to participate in a group experience working the defense side in a case and share the orgasmic delight from hearing those two words.

I can think of no better way to learn that we see what we want and expect to see. Belief and perception are one. What we call reality is a fabric woven out of our biases and prejudices. When prosecutors and criminal defense lawyers look at a case, they see different things.

So do jurors and the art of jury selection involves “seeing” what they see and eliminating those who will not see what you want them to see.

I do not criticize MOM’s efforts to find evidence that will help the defense and, like Judge Nelson, I think

I criticize MOM’s decisions to let his client drive the bus, to try his case in the court of public opinion and his emphasis on exploring rabbit holes. Those were terrible mistakes that have damaged the defense reducing public and financial support while wasting an enormous amount of money and time.

If brains were axel grease, his client wouldn’t have enough to grease the dynamo on a lightning bug’s ass.

MOM should have spent his time, effort and money on silencing his client, investigation and expert witnesses. There is no mystery about that. Every reasonably competent and experienced criminal defense attorney knows that those three priorities are the Big Three in every case.

Chasing rabbits down holes in the ground is equivalent to betting the ranch in a high stakes poker game that you will fill an inside straight on the draw.

You have attend to the important matters first and leave chasing rabbits to LSD trips.

A long time ago, I said that I thought MOM had a conflict of interest because his selfish interest in self-promotion in a high profile case was conflicting with his duty to vigorously represent his client’s best interests.

He is not ready for prime time.

He is hurting his client.

That is why I criticize him,

566 Responses to I Support BettyKath

  1. pat deadder says:

    Hi looolooo.Thank for answering me.Wow I didn’t know Canadians had an accent eh.That was hilarious.Can I say I’m 66 years young.My friends and I pop over the border to eat at Cracker Barrell.All the people we meet are awesome.I want to try grits but they never have them when we go.My son who is 43 was shovelling my driveway yesterday with his grey hoodie on he’s taller than Trayvon was but he is also very thin.I thought of Trayvon and felt so lucky to still have my son and sad for Martin family.It’s sad to say but being born white makes us privileged .A girl I worked with actually my boss and I became very good friends because we had boys the same age.She told me she had a list of things her son could not do that normal teenagers might do and when he asked why she said because you are black.Wow can you imagine.He became very successful but died of a heart attact last year at 42.My Mother always said the best revenge is success.hope to meet someday.luv this web site.thank you for listening or whatever.

  2. William Walton says:

    Bettykath, FYI we who work in geo-chemistry and geo-engineering have a saying about Experts: they are those who know more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing. Thought you might find this amusing. We never consider ourselves experts because we learn something new from each well we work on.

    Another point for you to ponder. I wonder is samples of the blood on GZ was collected for DNA evaluations. It would prove whether the blood was from GZ or blood transferred from TM’s wound. When doing well workovers it is common practice to obtain samples of all fluids as well as any solid material.

  3. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    blushedbrown says:
    February 9, 2013 at 2:16 am

    blushedbrown, what a beautiful page you created on Xena’s site.

  4. William Walton says:

    Nefertari05, It is called Trigonometry my good man. Basically the study of angles. If TM was leaning over GZ, he would not be leaning over perpendicular to the gun as he would be trying to get away and thus would be at an angle. GZ lying on the ground would be lying at an angle unless the ground was perfectly level which would be unusual. Also, GZ’s body is not rigid like a post so it would be at an angle. Therefore, with both entities being at angles, it would be impossible to fire a shot which would not enter TM’s body at an angle rather than in a straight line.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      And yet, the blood on the back of gz’s head was not smeared.

      Have you seen LLMPapa video which makes clear that gz was on top?

      • Nefertari05 says:

        Yes, I have. I always enjoy LLMPapas videos. He’s always on point. I also believe fogen was grabbing Trayvon’s shirts to hold him in place, and he probably was never on the bottom, witness #6, notwithstanding. Unfortuately, what I believe and LLMPapas videos probably wouldn’t be allowed in court. Which is why I was wondering what the prosecution could do to counteract the impact on a jury, of this potential fogen “expert” testimony that fogen was on the bottom, and Trayvon was on top, as this “expert” put into the public domain, last night. I don’t believe it, but a juror might.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I believe that martial artists and combat experts will be able to clarify what’s involved in gaining and maintaining a mount position, as well as what can and cannot be done from that position. Actual demonstrations are going to point out the impossibility of GZ’s claims, to a very convincing degree. Thus, without credibility sufficient to make counter claims GZ will have to hope for an earthquake, a tsunami or other catastrophic event to prevent or delay the verdict and perhaps present an opportunity to escape.
          |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

    • Nefertari05 says:

      Okay, I see the unlevel ground, and the body of fogen not being a post, but in your explanation, does fogen have a bent wrist? Because in mine he does not. I have my forearm on the desk, if I raise it, just the forearm( bent at the elbow, but with a straight wrist) to point at the top of the door frame app. 45 degrees, and fogen is pulling him down and forward by the shirts (at an angle), is he not perpendicular to the gun?

      Let me try this, cause I don’t explain math very well, because I don’t understand it well. If you extend the lines at the apex of a triangle (I guess that would be an X) and one line is Trayvon, being pulled forward and down at an angle, and the other line is fogen’s arm, with a straight wrist, holding the gun at app 45 degrees, isn’t the point where the lines intersect (Trayvon’s heart) a straight line, if you extend it through?

      • William Walton says:

        Nefertari05, no because TM is not static in that he is struggling to get away. Therefore, there is a lot of movement from both TM and GZ. Therefore, it would be improbable that TM would ever be perpendicular to the gun.

      • Nefertari05 says:

        William –
        Makes perfect sense. Thank you.

  5. Nefertari05 says:

    Thanks to all for your responses. I agree with you, particularly regarding the misalignment of the holes in the shirts and the wounds, and the lack of grass/mud on fogen’s back and bootheels. But, I expected that. I don’t need to convince you guys and you certainly don’t need to convince me. But, we’ve had months to disseminate, process and digest this info. A jury will not.

    Here is the article(link below), the professor wrote last summer, regarding the difference in where the bullet when through the shirts vs. where it went through the body. Specific with regard to measurement and I believe the professor’s conclusions were accurate and insightful.

    Questions: If the prosecution brings in an expert to testify to basically the same conclusions that the professor articulates, would that be enough? Or, do you think there is more the prosecution could do to negate the impact of a fogen expert, and what would it be? Do you believe the cumulative effect of the evidence (bullet casing, pictures of fogen front and back with no grass/mud on the back, competing experts on who was where when the shot was fired) would be efficient? At what point does the evidence become overwhelming to a juror, and small, but vital, details like fogen’s unconscious grasping motion, during the reenactment, begin to be not given the weight it deserves, or even overlooked? I don’t have any answers, but I am very interested in any thoughts others might have as to how to tread effectively& safely, through what appears to require a very careful balancing act, between making their point and not overwhelming the jury. Any thoughts?


    • Jun says:

      My personal opinion, the defense’s forensic expert does not want to totally destroy the defendant, so he is trying to be nice but he even sees that the defendant is lying in regards to the timeline and the fact he could have just went back to his truck, if that was his intent

      Him saying Trayvon could have made it safely home is simply a cop out, and he is basically admitting that the defendant went after the kid, as you can see he even says the defendant walked and ran longer than he was telling police

      The forensics is fairly simple, and considering the readings, it can be shown that Trayvon was not leaning on Fogenhats, simply by looking at the gun shot characteristics… considering that, him leaning on Fogenhats is not a possibility… besides, there are witnesses who actually saw him shoot and kill the victim, and simply rise up off him to his feet, simply getting off the victim

      • Nefertari05 says:

        I think so, as well. As a former sheriff, the expert would be well aware that Trayvon had no duty to retreat, so I take his comments about Trayvon making it home, as a effort to make it appear as if he is not ganging up on fogen. I am disturbed by the fact that the expert says that he looked at the reports on the bullet holes, yet completely seems to have disregarded the misalignment of the holes, which would have been right there under his nose.

        I am curious about one thing though. Many people have posted it is physically impossible to make that shot, with the straight trajectory, while laying on his back with Trayvon over him. I posted this thought many months ago, using a sexual position analogy, but I really don’t understand why if Zimmerman’s arm is raised at a 45 degree angle (aiming up, continuing the 45 degree angle), and Trayvon is leaning over, perpendicular to the gun, why it wouldn’t be a straight thru, no angle shot. Granted, I am no scientist, and my understanding of physics is elementary, at best, but a 45 degree angled arm (from a prone position), with Trayvon leaning over, perpendicular, seems like a straight shot to me. I know I’m missing something. I freely admit it. Can you explain to me what it is, so I have a better understanding?

      • bettykath says:

        hey, folks. This is not the defense’s expert. This is someone hired by the TV station. He may want to be the defense expert but, right now, he isn’t. I would expect that if the defense had already hired him, that would part of the intro as to who he is.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “This is not the defense’s expert. This is someone hired by the TV station. ”

          Very unlikely they hired someone to come on to promote a book they just released when they could get them to do so for the free publicity.

          People running broadcast outfits tend to avoid spending money they don’t have to spend, and I have the very small paycheck stubs from years ago to prove it.

          The person who interviewed him, who was not one of the 2 people sitting at the anchor desk when there were only 2 people sitting there, is a station employee.


      • Nefertari05 says:

        @Bettykath –
        Understood. Just kindof brainstorming on the info he has put into the public domain, currently. I believe the prosecution has the two audio experts originally hired by the Orlando Sentinel on their witness list, so it’s not inconceivable that the defense would look to this gentleman. Assuming they can come to some remunerative agreement, of course.

      • Jun says:


        This is where you are wrong because you are disregarding the characteristics of

        a) The shot to the chest was intermediate range

        b) The muzzle made contact with the shirt only

        That means the shirt was pulled away from the body of the victim, and, the gun made contact with the shirt only via muzzle, but the muzzle was at an intermediate distance from the body of the victim

        If Trayvon was leaning on the defendant, pulling on his shirt would have surely caused the victim to fall forward onto the defendant due to momentum, hence the readings of the forensics would have been vastly different than A & B


        c) The shirt had to be pulled down and to the left, to line up with the holes of the shirts and the chest wound

        There is no way for the victim to have been leaning on the defendant, and have these forensic readings of A, B, & C

    • Jun says:

      The biggest part of his admission is


      everything else has a witness or evidence supporting the defendant going after the victim

      I think even though the expert made some BS statements about Trayvon safely getting home (when the fact is Trayvon could have made it safely home if the defendant never went after him)

      So his own expert destroys a huge part of his claims

      • Nefertari05 says:

        So, the prosecution’s cross examination would do more harm to fogen, than O’Mara’s direct examination would help? That’s good. I like it!

      • Bill Taylor says:

        i am not convinced his truck was parked where it is now accepted that it was…….i think it was very close to the mailbox shed 70 yds or more further from the shooting scene, but the fact remains and always has, IF fogen started back to his truck when he said he had stopped following he would have still made it back to the truck BEFORE his nen call ended….and again simple common sense when he changed his mind and asked them to call his cell rather than meet at his truck that SHOWS he knew he was NOT going to his truck.because his own claim is he was within visual contact(never went south of the tee, even though he somehow ended up there) with where he claimed to be parked…you can see where he claimed to have parked from the tee….and if he was heading back to meet police there he could of course see them driving up IF they beat him to the truck.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Nefertari —

      One elememnt the Jury will NOT have is our experience of GZ as the mimic – old TV shows, old movies, old girlfiends – which we have seen for months & months – so we now say to ourselves,

      “Let’s see a mirror image of that scenario, and switch the players.”

      But putting all that aside, there is SO much solid info to come forward – the phone call records, the fiber records —

      BUT, if all the prosecution has to go on is what we know now, here is how I think they will play it:

      1) They will debunk the “Trayvon beat me up” story and “Trayvon was on top of me and I had to shoot him.”

      There is so much evidence that says “George lied. Oh- here’s another one. Wow! He’s lying again!”

      I call that “The Whopper Takedown” because when you do the demos, it’s actually funny. The jury will warm to the attorneys who give them good honest fun. Zimmerman trying to get his gun out is hilarious. Surely they’ll have videos.

      2) BUT I would not specify how the shot “went dowm,” just HOW THE SHOT WENT IN. Show the vids of GZ grasping, all the stupid stuff he says. And that he SAID “I did it.” So … I would not want to have to risk the argument “Trayvon was on the botton, Trayvn was standing, etc.” UNLESS I had fiber.

      Because the jury will do the work for the prosecution – they’l just mull it over, say “That guy is talkin’ trash, he was not all fraidy underneath Trayvon, he just up & shot Travon. And he admitted it!” BAM! Guilty.

      They don’t care position. They care justice. So do we.

      3) JURY SELECTION: I would get as many moms and dads of teens onto the jury – no matter what color. Teen boys especially. Now… here is the careful part, having established that “Mrs. Allen” has a daughter and two teen sons, I would say softly, “Mrs. Allen, I know this may be a hard question for you, but in your life have you known the tragedy of losing a child, or peerhaps a young nephew or niece? I’m not going to ask you the details of any tragedy in your life, but just if that has been part of your life experience?”

      Now you’ll say, “Hell, the defense will excuse her if she’s lost a kid.” And sure enough, you will be surprised that SO MANY people have had a singular tragedy like that in their lives.” And so, in some cases, the answer will be “Yes.” Then you leave the issue of tragedy, and go into neutral territory, example: “Mrs. Allen, this could be a lengthy trial, and I know you are concerned for your sons and daughter. Would you be able to arrange the care and, say, supervision for thm during a long trial? etc,” You could expect jurors have well thought out what they need to do on the homefront during this trial, so she will affirm. NOW: if the defese excuses her, THEY are poisoning the jury pool AGAINST THE DEFENSE because they know THE ONLY REASON for objecting to that Mom is that she has a deep understanding of tragedy and they won’t like the defense kicking them.

      A simpler approach is even easier – check the deep background of every potential juror and accept EVERY parent with a tragic history with kids (but don’t ask, don’t tell during jury selection) And fill it up with other parents – or grandparents. But you’ve got to have jurors who show that their hearts reach out to kids — and they will reach out to the prosecution’s viewpoint.

      • cielo62 says:

        PiranhaMom~ How many strikes does the defense get? Eventually they will use up all those strikes, considering that many people have been touched by tragedy in their lives.

  6. TommysMom says:

    O/T on a lighter note.

    I woke up,
    I lifted my arms,
    I moved my knees,
    I turned my neck….

    Everything made the same noise:


    I came to a conclusion:

    I am not old,

    I am crispy!!!

    Have a great week-end

  7. Malisha says:

    Notice how few celebrities are willing to openly support Fogen?

  8. When I viewed this moving tribute, it warmed my heart to see how many celebrities were willing to openly support Trayvon in this matter. Justice for Trayvon!.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Thanks, diary. Wonderful tribute.

      Song opens with

      >A mama’s cryin’
      ‘Cause another young man has gone and died
      He’s not some statistic
      He’s another awesome destiny denied

  9. colin black says:

    aussie says:

    February 9, 2013 at 9:14 am

    HE CLAIMED his left hand was grabbing Trayvon’s hand (“wrist control”) to keep it off his pulped nose.


    Dureing the reconstuction vt foggen demonstrates an useing his arm indicates he trapped Trayvons wandering hand heADING TOWARDS THE WEAPON.

    Does antone find it strange that for a guy according to foggens version of events.

    Trayvon seems to be mighty acomodating to his victim by telegraphing his intentions,
    First after lieing in wait concealed from foggens search.
    He suddenly is behind him an instead of attacking an useing his stealth to beatdown this craker.
    He shouts a warning to foggen to alert him of his presence an have hin turn an face him.
    Thus negateing any advantage of a SUPRISE ! Attack..

    Not to worry to much as Trayvons telepathic sense tells him that haveing being startled by this scary dude whom now confronts him.
    He will take his eyes of him an look down avereting his eyes from this dangerous guy.
    Now stood in front off him to look down at his pockets.

    An dureing the epic head slammin smothering Trayvon again telegraphs his intentions to foggen .
    When haveing spotted a deadly weapon that he did not yet have control of .
    He tells him your going to die to night.
    Exactly the sort of adrenalin boosting info youd want to tell a potential murder victim.
    Nothing like giveing up the element of suprise dureing a life an death struggle you know.
    Forgett about what you see on tv the shit foggen was dealing with was real life .
    Makes sense right.

    • Malisha says:

      Not JUST that Trayvon averts his eyes to focus on the gun and takes his hand away from his attempt to “smother” Fogen so that he can announce, “You’re gonna die tonight motherfucker” and seize “THE” gun, but this: If Trayvon is beating up and trying to kill Fogen how does he even NOTICE the fact that Fogen’s jacket rode up on his chest? Are we all supposed to believe that in the dark, in the rush of adrenalin giving this alleged thug the pleasure of his next kill, he casually notices a “clothing failure” and spies a “THE” gun about 18 inches away from his focus on the broken nose he is now able to effectively hurt even more? Oh puh-leezzz. 🙄

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think it’s possible that Fogen’s weapon may have been noticeable if his story has any truth , but by the sound of Trayvon’s screams and some of the things he says that are audible in the 911 recording, it’s more likely that Fogen pulled his weapon before he claims he did and in much different circumstances.

      • bettykath says:

        Right. Trayvon saw the gun in the dark under the defendant’s body.

        Two-sides, I agree. A visible gun would move Trayvon to yell for help while he tried to hold the defendant down.

      • Judy75201 says:

        Trayvon did not try to hold fogen down. Ever. At all.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        bettykath…..please see my comment at

        click> http://frederickleatherman.com/2013/02/08/i-support-bettykath/#comment-71646

        LLMPapa’s video proves that gz was not on the bottom.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        Have you considered that gz was not on the bottom when he shot Trayvon?

      • leander22 says:

        it’s more likely that Fogen pulled his weapon before he claims he did and in much different circumstances.

        unlawful arrest. That means he looses his rights for both lawful defense and stand your ground. And he knows it, and he knows he has to act fast since the police is on the way. John signals there is attention now, and this guy is screaming. Add to that his legal history.

        One tiny bit, Colin, I do not look down usually to take something out of my pockets. These are gestures done so often automatically you don’t need your eyes for it.

        But yes, one could add endlessly. Trayvon first strikes his nose, which then bleeds. A seconds later he puts a hand both on his nose and mouth and has no blood on his hands?

        “telegraphing” or telepathy is nothing but a hall of mirrors, projection. That is the core that makes me sick about this story. Starting with he has his hand in his waistband. He mirrors his mental processes on Trayvon, “the suspect”. But forgot he had his weapon on him, it’s out there in somebody else’s waistband. “I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am, and I did not know if he was armed or not.” Considering that Fogen always had a tendency to stoutness, I doubt there was much space in his pants. He does not feel it? To be quite honest with you, I have a bad memory. No memory necessary, routine and other senses besides your mind. Notice how sweet and childish his voice is at that point, slightly more than in his interview anyway. Look I am so sweet I would not harm a fly, if it didn’t threaten my life.

  10. Malisha says:

    I want to add one more note. About the BettyKath thing. I think the part about what DeeDee might have said, including the suggestion of an evil motive on Trayvon’s part and a collusionary attitude on hers, is what set people off. Frankly, when I first read the original post I was skimming and I thought you meant that she actually HAD SAID THAT and I was immediately suspicious of some trickery and/or hacking on the part of the outhousers because it would not even make sense. FOGEN said that he had essentially put Trayvon on notice that he was following him, because HE SAID Trayvon came out and circled his car. So Trayvon would have known that the guy was driving a car, and would not have assumed that he would get out of that car and run around the grounds on foot. From that, the idea that Trayvon would have planned an attack on the driver is pretty hard to conclude unless “facts” such as “Black kids like to attack white guys” or “criminal activities come natural to African Americans” is part of the mix.

    From there, to think that DeeDee would put these illogical and unlikely things up on Twitter is a big stretch, For one thing, she would probably know that Trayvon’s brother was familiar with social media and she wouldn’t like to jump into his face right after he lost his little brother. And my take on DeeDee is that she is not terribly agile with the language and would not be posting this kind of ex post facto analysis of the scene. Just not happening. You might get from her, “Trayvon was mad” or “Trayvon was gonna show nobody could get him” or something like that.

    Anyway, it’s not terribly important, I’m just reflecting on what, in that BK post, rattled my own psyche. Once I realized it was just a speculation (this took maybe 30 seconds) I calmed down. Just sayin…

    • Judy75201 says:

      But what on earth would be the point of such “speculation”?

      • Malisha says:

        Just positing the reason the defense would want to read DeeDee’s twitters, which otherwise would be utterly irrelevant and in any case, whether they say something O’Mara likes or not, will probably not be admissible.

    • cielo62 says:

      Malisha~ “this took some 30 seconds”  LOL! Some people (ie Eric) never got it at all.   I agree that DeeDee, like all teens, write short posts, so I doubt she would have said anything derogatory or even very detailed. The only downside of technology is the huge hit that our English language has suffered.


      • bettykath says:

        I think the social media has spawned a new language. I don’t text or twitter so I joke about trying to become bi-lingual in learning txt language. In a classroom I’d probably be a C student in the subject. When trying to communicate with younger family members it’s not unusual for me to ask them to translate.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I am learning text aconyms every day, Betty. I did not know any before last March.

        Did you know the your name can actually mean “Be Talking To You” ?

        = Be TTY

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Can’t do anything with Kath, thought.

        KA +TH

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        though instead of thought

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I think if people would READ CAREFULLY and READ DEEPLY, then they would have surely seen that BettyKath was offering a hyypothetical situation. Asking if this happened, then what? I don’t think this is HER problem – I think everyone going off has a problem with their reading and jumping to conclusions.

  11. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I think it would be very good for the prosecution to show the jury the reenactment video where gz says he shot Trayvon and then immediately got on top of Trayvon.

    All the prosecution then has to point out to the jury is that gz’s story is a lie because of the incriminating distance Trayvon’s body was found from the shooting location in gz’s story.

  12. colin black says:

    M O M Does have the info re the gps data.
    He just doesnt know how to interpit the raw data given to him by the State is my opinion.

    And doesnt have an expert to conect the dots.
    Of course he does have a client whom could give him an acurate acounts of his movements that night,

  13. Malisha says:

    MMPat, yes, the same kind of thing operating. LAPD surely does not want Dorner to go to trial. But I think he is exceedingly smart and therefore, he is not in California. He will be arrested somewhere else where there will possibly be extradition hearings, and that is the key. At extradition hearings, information will come out that cannot be controlled by the LAPD or the DA in California.

    LA is notoriously corrupt, from judges who actually maintain a bank account with the county’s tax i.d. number for bribes, to police who do the bidding of any fraud who can pay them a few hundred grand, to drug rings operated by the county itself, to the “rental” of juveniles right from the county foster care folks for parties arranged by pedophiles, you name it. The corruption is horrifying and there’s really no way to deal with it; that is probably what drove Dorner crazy, to use street-speak. Some people cannot just leave and try to go to a place that is less atrocious; some people have to take on their own lives and live their own deaths and he appears to be one of them. He had a mission, and that was to bring all this to light, and he’s giving his life to do that, by one means or another. I can’t say “good for him” but I can say, “What does this teach us?”

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I think he may commit suicide or go out in a blaze of gunfire – provoked suicide. He clearly indicates he doesn’t plan to live long in his “manifesto”. I think he’s probably somewhat unstable to begin with but did have more morals than many of the so-called stable people he worked with. I think that would be enough to put someone over the edge.

      • bettykath says:

        He won’t quit until he “gets” those he sees as corrupt or until they kill him in the process. It’s highly unlikely that he will be taken alive.

  14. Good mornin’ folks:

    Hope all on the East Coast are safe, well & warm.

    This may be a bit off topic, yet it still relates to police corruption.

    I’ve been following the Dorner thing……..

    There are things that seem very odd to me.

    1. The LAPD has already fired upon 2 vehicles without warning or reason…..They don’t want to arrest this man….they want him DEAD.

    Is there a reason for this?
    LA has had many serial killers, yet none has gotten the police response this has?

    “Oh it’s because he’s trying to kill cops”
    So cops deserve better protection than the general public?

    By the way LAPD is acting they DO NOT want this man to go to trial. They want him DEAD. Does he have things on them that would come out in a trial?

    LAPD has a long history of corruption.

    It’s a GOOD thing LAPD doesn’t take firearms training seriously or else we would now have 3 dead civilians on our hands…and maybe more….their bullets not only hit the vehicles, but also houses where others could have been killed.

    It all seems a bit of over reaction.

    I want to state again


    I do believe there may be more to this than meets the eye considering the over reaction by the LAPD.

    Corruption in the po dunk town of Sanford Fla.?

    Corruption in the big city of LA?

    • Judy75201 says:

      Great post, MMP.

    • SearchingMind says:

      I concur, MMP. But i do not have any sympathy for Dorner. I do not understand why sane people take up guns against unarmed and unsuspecting civilians. I just can’t find any justification for what Dorner did. That guy is IMO a perfect “deadender” (quoting our Donald Rumsfeld again). May God have mercy on him. “They who live by the sword shall perish by the sword.”

      • Given the story reported by the media, I agree that there is no legal justification for what Dorner has done.

        I believe he has a compelling personal story to tell, however, that warrants our consideration before we dismiss him as a “deadender.”

        PTSD is epidemic. More of our men and women in the military have died by committing suicide than have been killed in combat.

        We are going to see increasing violence committed by veterans suffering from severe PTSD and unable to readjust to civilian life. I suspect Dorner is one of them and I do not think we should dismiss him or any of them as deadenders.

        I believe we as a society are reaping what these ill advised wars for natural resources and corporate profits have sown.

        They have sown people like Dorner and how we deal with them as a society will say a lot about who we are.

        As John Donne might have said, if he were alive today,

        Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for us.

      • cielo62 says:

        Searching Mind~ We don’t actually know a whole lot about the people he supposedly killed. He was said to be a “suspect” and it never got past that. Yes, he did kill one cop, as he found the walls closing in. In cases like this, I don’t see that thinking in terms of “good guys” vs “bad guys” even applies. Dorner was no doubt involved in some bad things, under the orders of even worse people. Reality is gray. I hope 2 things: 1, we find out what he knows to put a few bad apples away and 2. he gets help and shelter. I don’t wish any evil for Dorner. The poison is in LA itself.


      • SearchingMind says:

        Professor, You do have a very subtle way of making very powerful points; a very simple way of explaining the seemingly inexplicable; a masterful way of simplifying the brain-crashing letters and constructs of the law and exposing the meaning hidden in them in ways writers do it for children in children’s books – thereby making the society, law and its processes understandable to all (irrespective of their academic background). I hope to learn and master these inborn qualities of yours and incorporate them into my system of operation. Anyone who has them, has a qualitative edge over others.

        • Thanks, but I don’t think my writing is due to “inborn qualities” so much as it’s due to many years of hard work learning, developing and refining my writing abilities.

          I struggled with many of the concepts at first. Given affordable educational opportunities, which I was fortunate to have, and enough time and perseverance, I think many people could do the same.

          Thirty years experience explaining complex concepts to juries shaped who I am today.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Cielo, I get it. Thanks.

      • leander22 says:

        Thanks, but I don’t think my writing is due to “inborn qualities” so much as it’s due to many years of hard work learning, developing and refining my writing abilities

        Quite a few very, very good writers have a law background, I do not think that is an accident. If I may pick out two arbitrarily Montesquieu and Kafka. 😉

        I don’t think either of them studied writing specifically, I tend to believe the fact that they had to deal with law, learn the ability to swiftly change sides, since ultimately the law goes both way always concerning the parties, sharpened their minds and refined their writings. Language next to the laws or “paragraphs” (§), as we call your articles over here, is the most important tool of every lawyer.

        That said, I like your writing a lot too.

    • cielo62 says:

      MMP~ Unless Dorner manages to find a HONEST police department from which to tell his stroy, he IS a dead man on the run. I, too, would love to know what he has found out. All I can say is, SKIP HOUSTON. They are disgustingly corrupt here, too.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      LAPD has a long history of corruption.

      THe truck that Torrance police fired upon wasn’t even the same year, the same color, or the same make or model as Dorner’s truck. And two small women hardly look like a big guy. It was however, traveling near some home that Dorner may have had something to do with, or some police safe house or some darn thing – you can find many articles that mention this. However, no frigging excuse for the bad police work. THen they have the nerve to tell people not to drive pick-up trucks around the LA area! Bwa-ha-ha!! What a joke! I’m way more afraid of police than criminals, and have been for years.

  15. Judy75201 says:

    I believe that the reason fogen had to make sure he did not shoot his own hand was because he grabbed Trayvon’s clothing and held tight, not allowing Trayvon to flee, just before he pulled the trigger. This was a hideous, hateful murder.

  16. Trained Observer says:

    Michael Knox joins WKMO as an ongoing forensic consultant in the Martin murder case.


    • blushedbrown says:

      @Trained Observer

      Thank for the link. I have checked out his website briefly and some of the contents of his book on Amazon. Most reviews were decent. I am going to purchase the book, its only $10.


    • Your link doesn’t work because it goes to facebook. You’re going to have to go to youtube and search for the video using the search window.

      When you find it, copy the address in your browser’s navigation window and paste it into a new comment.

  17. SearchingMind says:

    @ BettyKath

    Betty, I am wondering if you and ‘mainstreamfair’ are one and the same person? Professor might already know the answer to my question (if he compares the IP-addresses). But I want to know from you. I cannot adequately respond to Professor’s post without that information.

    Thanks in advance.

    • Zhickel says:

      Searching Mind: Pull your head in. You are trying to ignite fires of distrust and discontent where none need exist.

      Fred: thanks for this post. Very sensible. Shame that your words of wisdom have gone over the heads of many.

      Betty Kath: love your posts. Keep on asking the hard questions.

      • SearchingMind says:

        “Pull your head in. You are trying to ignite fires of distrust and discontent where none need exist.”

        – My question is very simple. What exactly are you scared of?

        “Betty Kath: love your posts. Keep on asking the hard questions”.

        – Point to ONE SINGEL “hard question” EVER asked by BettyKath. Please.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Professor did assign motive to BettyKath. I do have doubt regarding the motive thus assigned. Hence, I find that motive worth examining. Such examination is an essential ingredient of the sort of dialectical discourse which BettyKath – completely according to Professor – aspires. Without the answer I seek, I shall not be able to present my case. If my question is answered in the affirmative, I will demonstrate the opposite of what Professor opined. If in the negative, I shall let the matter rest. If I do not get any answer at all, I shall also let the matter rest.

        Enough said.

      • Dave says:

        Far more than enough said.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Oh, fiddly-dee-dee on the bull-quote below,

      bettykath says:
      February 8, 2013 at 10:52 pm
      oh, dear, I really stirred things up this time with no intention to do so.

      SearchingMind: You are the one who poses intriguing questions.

      • Judy75201 says:

        According to the definition of a troll provided by Unitron… Does any of this seem familiar?

      • Judy75201 says:

        Sorry, Cielo, but the name Aja keeps coming to mind, and I don’t consider the posts as “thinking like a defense attorney” except in the sense of spin (or “reasonable doubt” lol). OK, I’ll shut up now.

        • cielo62 says:

          LOL Judy~ Please DON’T shut up!  🙂   But nonetheless, maybe we should acknowledge when to agree to disagree and move on. I want justice for Trayvon, and if using Machiavelli and Sun Tzu help, then I will think like they do. MOM will fight us on the ground of OUR choosing. And he and GZ will LOSE.


    • bettykath says:

      I have no idea who mainstreamfair is. It is not I. I have only one name for posting and this, bettykath, is it.

    • groans says:

      @ SearchingMind – I’m not bettykath, but FWIW I doubt she is the same as mainstreamfair. I’ve been browsing old articles lately, and I noticed yesterday that BOTH bettykath and mainstreamfair commented on the professor’s 8/30/2012 article.


  18. William Walton says:

    Bettykath, I meant to mention earlier that if you are considered a troll then I guess many of us in science would be considered the same, When I was with Amoco, I would put some off the wall statements in reports. I would have them read by various engineers to get their opinion. Most would come back with the statement great report so I knew they had not read it. Those who read it would comment what is the BS you wrote in the report. The one having my authority would ask if I wanted it taken out of the report before the individual signed it and I would say most definetly. Many times we would throw out technical comments to see what response we would get and obtain ideas on how to proceed.

    On another note, I have read comments that GZ held TM in a wrist hold. My question is with GZ being more muscular than TM he could have easily pulled TM’s arm away from his body. Therefore, why would GZ be afraid of shooting his left hand. There would be no fear of GZ shooting his left hand unless it was holding onto TM’s hoodie and he had to aim over his left arm. This should give you another perspective to ponder.

    Well, having become interested in defending your right to espouse various senarios in this blog, I did not complete the oil production decline curves I had set out to complete but will do them tomorrow provided I don’t become engrossed in what is going on here. Now, I am calling it a day and go to bed.

    • aussie says:

      HE CLAIMED his left hand was grabbing Trayvon’s hand (“wrist control”) to keep it off his pulped nose.

    • bettykath says:

      William, That’s a very clever way to determine if you were getting the review you wanted. Where I worked they had confidential documents that had red covers, were numbered, individually signed out, and required to be under double lock except when in actual use. Each copy had a unique error in it, a “typo” that wouldn’t be noticed. If an illegitimate copy turned up they would be able to show which book was copied and, thereby, who to fire.

      He said he had Trayvon under wrist control. Whatever else it means, it means that gz was in control, not Trayvon, so gz was in no danger. He could have held Trayvon in that position until the police arrived. He shot Trayvon instead. A wrist lock is extremely painful and stops any aggressive action of the person being so held. Breaking Trayvon’s wrist would have been better than shooting him. I tend to believe this bit of the defendant’s story because of the scream on the 911 call. It was a scream of intense pain, the kind of pain a wrist lock can produce.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      I agree with you 100% when you write:

      He said he had Trayvon under wrist control. Whatever else it means, it means that gz was in control, not Trayvon, so gz was in no danger.

      He could have held Trayvon in that position until the police arrived. He shot Trayvon instead.

      A wrist lock is extremely painful and stops any aggressive action of the person being so held. Breaking Trayvon’s wrist would have been better than shooting him. I tend to believe this bit of the defendant’s story because of the scream on the 911 call. It was a scream of intense pain, the kind of pain a wrist lock can produce.

  19. Jun says:

    They should get Fogenhats GPS info from his car…

    I am willing to bet he lied…

    Check his phone and his car for the GPS

    • SearchingMind says:

      JUN, I think Fogen upon request voluntarily submitted his phone to investigators (see video of cross-examination during the first bond hearing). I will be highly surprised if investigators/FBI did not download and copy everything on that phone (and even place a bug in it and returned it to the Butcher). The data collected from that phone might actually show that Fogen was driving around, circling the neighborhood all afternoon and/or evening (as opposed to living his home and heading to Target).

      My suspicion is that O’Mara is asking for continuance because of his correctly perceived devastating force of the judicial avalanche heading towards Fogen and not necessarily to troll for more money (as Fogen’s acquittal will result in millions of dollars from donations and civil-suits).

      There is a lot of “known unknowns” in this case. The suspense is just breathtaking.

    • ay2z says:

      He has GPS in his silver Honda Ridgeline? If so how was it that he, as he claims, he had to get out of the car when he thought to see what street he was on?

      • Jun says:

        depends on the make and model and year

        a few of the newer cars comes with GPS tracking

        if not, the cell phone is the next best bet because they can triangulate when his cell connected for the calls

      • Mike says:

        If he had GPS in his truck he should have knew the street name that he was on.

  20. ay2z says:

    correction, he said his conclusion was Trayvon over the shooter.

  21. ay2z says:

    Tony Pipitone and expert talk about and demo gunshots to support Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, with one shirt showing contact, the inner shirt, showing intermediate.


    The expert concludes this must be the gravity effect, with the outer shirt hanging downward as he hovered over Trayvon.

    What about the hand grab effect, pulling the shirt out from Trayvon as the gun was pushed into Trayvon’s chest, Trayvon could pull back somewhat, causing the same distance difference between the two layers of fabric?

    • Nefertari05 says:

      I agree with you and essentially said the same when I posted, before I got through all the comments. It also occurred to me that while this guy’s theory is an alternative for the gap between the skin and the clothing, it does not address the difference in where the bullet went through the clothes vs. where it went through the body.

      IIRC – the bullet went through the clothing at a significantly higher placement than where that position would naturally rest on his body. Meaning that the clothes had to be pulled down as well as out, not something that would happen as a natural occurence of gravity. If anything, I would think that the bullet would go through the shirt(s) slightly lower, as a result of a natural bagging effect.

      Nevertheless, whether we agree with it or not, I think there is little doubt that O’Mara will take advantage of something that appears to have just fallen into his lap. He could truly be guilty of ineffective counsel if he didn’t. I’m hoping we can explore some ways that the prosecution would be able to minimize or counteract the effect of this type of testimony on the jury. I suppose I would start with the expert the professor wrote an article about (last summer?) regarding the shirts being pulled downand away.

    • SearchingMind says:

      IMO, that “expert-analysis” and the conclusion thereof is utter nonsense. I base my opinion on the following:

      (a). It is a non-sequitur – i.e. the conclusion does not follow from the premise. Whether or not the gun was fired at close/intermediate range does not say anything about who was on top of whom. In fact, people get shot at close/intermediate range while on the bottom of the shooter, or standing before the shooter, or knelling before the shooter, or sleeping facing the shooter, etc.

      (b). The ‘TRAJECTORY OF THE BULLET’. The demo undeniably show the opposite of what the expert concluded. The “expert” in the demo fired his shots while STANDING with his HANDS EXTENDED and aimed to the “victim’s” heart. As such, he was able make a STRAIGTH shot WITHOUT ANGLES. That (i.e. the result of the demo) is consistent with The Butcher of Sanford and Trayvon standing facing each other- OR the Butcher sitting on top of immobilized Trayvon when the fatal shot was fired.

      The Butcher could not have fired a perfect straight shot, WITHOUT ANGELES (as documented in the autopsy report) from an ANGLED POSITION (as documented in his re-enactments and numerous statements to the police and media). The laws of physics and geometry rule that out. This so-called expert never for once mentioned The ‘TRAJECTORY OF THE BULLET’. That’s astonishing. Beware of “experts”!

    • tonydphotog says:

      I agree. The “expert” doesn’t even address the holes in the clothing not matching up with where the bullet entered the body. If this were the scenario, then the holes in the clothing would be lower, not higher, than where the bullet entered the body. I don’t believe this guy is an expert.

      Actually, I guess this is to be expected of Fogen. Manipulating photos, creating fake Facebook/ twitter accounts, and lying about pretty much everything. Why would I even think that he would be using legitimate experts.

      What’s troubling, is that most people I know don’t follow this case at all, except when they see it in the news. Most believe what Fogen, and JR are spewing because that’s what the news is reporting! Of course, when I educate anyone about the facts, they think differently.

      BTW – Was the manipulated photo of Trayvon Martin released last week from Fogen and Co? It looks like they have the same photo manipulator. Both faces stretched, etc.

      • Mike says:

        Saw the special last night, looked like a promo for his book.

      • bettykath says:

        tony, Your first paragraph is right on, but the expert was hired by the tv station, not the defense team so your second paragraph isn’t relevant.

      • Malisha says:

        Hold on: What if O’Mara is working toward a motion to exclude ALL the phone evidence? If he could cry and whine about not being given proper amounts of Trayvon’s phone evidence, he could then say it’s not fair and as a result we have to exclude Fogen’s phone evidence and ALL OF IT and that might be why he’s carrying on so much now. Fogen’s phone evidence will nail his proverbial coffin SHUT. As in SHUT TFU.

    • cielo62 says:

      ay2z~ I doubt that GZ was EVER on his back, as his pants and jacket showed no stains or grass attached to them. GZ was on top, he was pulling Trayvon’s shirts, causing the same effect, and he fired from a superior position.

      • ay2z says:

        Wasn’t the word ‘stain’ used by people like Taafee with no support that there was ever a ‘stain’? If there was grass on the back, did someone brush it off, or did anyone check Smith’s car seat?

    • ay2z says:

      The report states that the expert’s conclusion as ‘fact’, not as ‘opinion’ in this bullet point in the article.

      “Martin was in fact leaning over Zimmerman when the fatal shot was fired, just as Zimmerman has maintained.”

      And it’s published in a book, enough to make some people believe it as fact. Who is this guy working for, because if it’s a news agency that gives balanced reporting, and this report is in the guise of ‘both sides’, why say the retired police investigator’s statement is ‘fact’ rather than his opinion?

  22. seallison says:

    MOM Press Conference

    • bettykath says:

      Thanks for the post.

      A question was asked about the syg hearing and if that could provide a reason for an appeal and MOM said it’s something he has thought about.

      What’s that about? Is it if the decision goes against the defendant that they can appeal that they didn’t have enough time to prepare? or enough money to hire experts? or what?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      So, O’Mara said that on January 9 he was given a map by FDLE that showed where Trayvon’s phone was during the relevant time on February 26, 2012.

      That’s is why he feels the prosecution has the gps coordinates for February 26 from Trayvon’s phone?

      I am confused.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Can gps coordinates ever be obtained from the records of a phone company rather than the phone itself?

      • Jun says:

        They actually may have that recorded, along with Fogenhats GPS info recorded

        They can detect where the signals were detected to log in the phone calls, as Cell runs by signal… and then triangulate position during the connections

        I am not sure if the state went that deep

      • PYorck says:

        As I understand it he learned that such a map exists, but he doesn’t have it and that is one of the things he is complaining about.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Whether or not the prosecution has the gps info for February 26, wouldn’t is fall into the category of refuting defense assertions supporting gz story?

        I can’t remember what our professor labeled the kind of evidence that the prosecution does not have to release.

        That is, the prosecution does not need to use it to prove 2nd degree murder. The evidence the prosecution has released is what they are basing their case against gz.

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ YAHTC

        “I can’t remember what our professor labeled the kind of evidence that the prosecution does not have to release”

        ‘Rebuttal evidence’

      • aussie says:

        Also the prosecution has to hand over evidence they GET, but not their own “product”, so if they make up a map or video like Whonoze’s, they do not have to hand that over.

        If they got a map and drew on it all the GPS co-ordinates, they don’t have to hand that over, either. They just pass on the GPS data and O”Mara has to hire or cajole someone on his side to make a map of it.

        The map he was given on Jan 9 may have just been where the phone was found?????

        You guys remember whatshername, I forget, Sondra Osterman’s stepmother or aunt or something? she swore blind for months the phone was not even Trayvon’s and he’d left his in Miami. Anyone seen her around? used to be on Orlando and featured on (and fought with) the Nuthouse around the time MO’s book came out.

    • seallison says:

      Special Attention at 7:25 – still following the treenuts.

    • cielo62 says:

      This “expert” should see some of Trent’s videos, which make MORE sense and uses all the evidence from all calls and videos. I don’t like the way the “expert” seemed to imply that Trayvon brought about his own death. What he SHOULD have said is that GZ is LYING, because Trayvon WOULD have made it home except he was intercepted, since we all realize that GZ is a lying @ss. UNLESS the GPS records can place Trayvon somewhere, like the mail kiosk or something, that part of the story we might never know.   GZ is STILL the aggressor. GZ is STILL a murderer.

      • Looolooo says:

        Also, Trayvon may have been trying to prevent GZ from knowing where he actually lived. Especially with his little brother at home alone.

      • Looolooo says:

        You’re exactly right about Trent’s video’s. They’re usually spot on and hillarious to boot.

    • Jun says:

      I already read about that expert and he’s not helping Fogenhats’ case because he even agrees that Fogenhats should have also been able to go back to his truck, if that was his intention

  23. ay2z says:

    remember Trayvon had dreams of a future too, going into something , as Serino told the killer,’ like aeronautics”. No one had the right to hunt him down for their own selfish misguided choices.

  24. colin black says:

    Only people in the uk know that Dylan was also huge on the Magic Round About……..Zebadee says

    Boing Time for Bed..

    Da Da da Da da da
    Na Na Na Na ect……….

  25. colin black says:

    Yup Bob Dylan born of Jewish Parents changed his name to Bob Dylan as he thought it more folksy.
    He was a huge hit on the alternative folk /beat generation.
    Young uns today wont know beatnicks the fore runners of the hippys.

    There were riots at some concerts when Bob Dylan started to use an electric guitar instead of an acoustic.
    Theres a myth he was being flown around on a small pane an he left his guitar an arrived at the concert without it.
    An had to borrow an electric one.
    But this is just a concocted story to try an apease many of his folksy fans whom felt he had sold out to the man..

    Anyhoo if foggen wants to mimic Bob Dylan I suggest he go for

    Bob Fillin..

    Bob Fullin

    Bob villan

    Bob killin

    And in 40 years time Bob Stillin……….

  26. ay2z says:

    I’d like to share something off topic, think people here might enjoy. It’s something special that happened this morning, 6 am Eastern, earth time, and since the original news source may not be available where everyone lives, have uploaded a copy to share from the ISS and Canada– enjoy!

    This first ever Canadian commander of the ISS had a dream at 9 years old, to become an astronaut when Canadians were not allowed. This day has been in the planning, to broadcast the song simultaneously from Earth and the ISS.

    Hope this is ok for a Friday night as things quieten down.

  27. Dave says:

    To bettykath:

    Thanks for all your insightful comments. Please keep them coming and don’t let the troll(s) get you down.

  28. Trained Observer says:


  29. ay2z says:

    On the serious side, Zimmerman is a common Dutch name, isn’t it? There is a new exercise fad in Holland that may work to counteract the 204 lbs, it’s said to be ‘popular’ ‘cheap’, ‘simple’, ‘safe’ , appropriate even for ankle monitor wearers, and for an aspiring criminal justice major cop wannabe, perfect to suit the needs and budget to help the zim slim. And the Hannity guest, has also taught us that the name means to ‘move quickly’, so it’s efficient too.

    • cielo62 says:

      ay2z~ the Zim Slim? Is that anything like Gangnam Style? Phogen-Style?

    • Jun says:

      I do not know if it is true but allegedly Bob Dylan’s real name is “Robert Zimmerman”

    • SearchingMind says:

      @ My good friend ay2x,

      ‘Zimmerman’ is a derivative of German name “Zimmermann”. In German, Zimmer means: ‘room’. ‚Mann‘ means man. Depending on the context it could be used in the genus form: man (meaning: men/all men/humans) or the specie form: man (as in ‘the man’/‘that man’). The word ‘Zimmer’ does not exist in the Dutch vocabulary. The Dutch are the people of The Netherlands (Holland). “Deutsch” refers to the Germans (i.e. the people of Germany/Deutschland).

  30. Trained Observer says:

    Has a new bus driver gotten behind the wheel here tonight?

    Eric, I’m gratified to see you’re no pushover, and I’m hoping you’ll stick around because I value your opinions along with those of so many others that all go toward enhancing the professor’s insightful and pithy posts.

    But I do understand your point of view.

    In addition to your concerns, I didn’t like it when this (see below) got posted because I thought it was carelessly besmirching Witness 8, a teenager like Travon, … and the thread shows I said so.

    bettykath says:
    February 7, 2013 at 3:33 pm
    If it could be shown that DD posted on her fb or on twitter something along the lines of: “I just did that m…f…. bad. I told that Trayvon was scared when he was really going after that m…f…. to do him in. Too bad Trayvon was shot but I really got even with that dude.” Couldn’t it be used to impeach her testimony?

    One thing about life in general and certainly for any defense attorney is that it helps to be likeable, especially when trying to persuade a jury. People who like each other can argue tooth and nail (as the cliche goes) all day long and still go out for a few pitchers that night. Nobody wants to have a cold one with a supercilious snot or a sanctimonious snoot.

    Make no mistake, Eric, i’d be pleased to have a virtual beer with you.

    And one more thing: Since MOM’s expertise appears to lean more toward divorce and DUIs than murder cases, do you think he’d jump at the chance to handle Fogen’s marital split? Or do you think he’d rather cozy up to Mrs. Fogen. Pro bono, of course:)

  31. ay2z says:

    A thought about the ‘jumping out of the bushes’ source, he wouldn’t be jumping, or skipping out of the bushes, but he might have been hiding, OR he might have made it close to home, close to his dad’s house as Dee Dee says.

    Makes no common sense for a young, still growing 6′ teen, to crouch down behind those knee-high AC blocking bushes to hide. That puts Trayvon at a hugh disadvantage in being able to escape or more away, he’d be on his knees basically.

    I don’t see any bushes from the T area right down the centre sidewalk that make an easy blind. Makes more sense that Trayvon cut through to Retreat VC side, iand someone met up with him there, where there are tall bushes and trees that are larger and more full. Trayvon could have stepped around near those and faced the shooter, maybe mid-block.

    No bushes to hide in at the ‘T’. PHotos of the RTV mature bushes are from FDLE in the AxiomAm albums.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Trayvon was 5’9″.

    • Jun says:

      It does not mean much because Omara can not even submit that statement for Fogenhats, so, unless Fogenhats takes the stand, that statement will not even make it to trial

      Besides, it is plain obvious Fogenhats lied regarding that because once he was on scene trying to explain it, he noticed right away there were no bushes, so he concocted another lie to try and fit his “staged self defense claim”

      • aussie says:

        Amazing he didn’t notice no bushes there
        (a) every darned day he patrolled around there
        (b) the night before when he had TWO torches plus his headlights

        Besides, aren’t the police who interviewed him allowed to give evidence about what he told them?

      • Jun says:

        It is not a necessary statement to submit, IMO

        The only statements they truly need to use is, that he got out of his truck, and, that he aimed and shot Trayvon Martin. We actually not even need him to admit to shooting the kid either because witness 18 saw him shoot Trayvon, and simply rise to his feet (ie he did not have to get Trayvon off him to get up, so, dun dun dun)

        If Fogenhats or Omara wants that in, well, Fogenhats will have to take the stand under oath and testify

    • Well…according to the outhousers, Trayvon was something like a menacing 6’11” or more compared to petite, harmless and innocent little fogen. 😆

      • blushedbrown says:

        @Grey winter sky


        Superpowers for Trayvon and DeeDee.

      • blushed…..That article is soooo correct. It seems that the outhousers also believe that Trayvon still has superpowers to keep growing taller. Every time they talk about the 7-11 video, Trayvon is taller than the previous time they talked about it…he just keeps growing taller and stronger. I’ve also read their comments on other subjects too…..these people are absolutely whacky.

        • blushedbrown says:

          @ grey winter sky

          Thank you for reading the post. I’ve had my fill of the “Superpowers” that has been attributed to Trayvon and DeeDee. I had to address this asap. The constant talk about he had arms to do this, he had the speed of a gazelle, he was at least 6′ 5″ , has made me sick to my stomach. Not only do “they” attribute these Superpowers to Travyon, but to DeeDee as well. I can not say this enough that her family did the right thing. Even with the knowledge that her friend/boyfriend was shot. Her family were terrified of what could happen to her. I do not blame them one iota for keeping her “out” of the mix, at the beginning. That must of been very hard for her, and the parents as well. The nut jobs out there and there agendas proved to them, DeeDee’s parents that indeed the right choice was made to not get involved early on. Look at what has been done to her since.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Excellent article, blushedbrown.

        I just now posted it to our Trayvon team on Newsvine.

        • blushedbrown says:

          Thank you for reading and thank you for spreading the message.
          I do hope not only our team reads it but the other side as well. Included in the article were links provided by hinkster about the legal ramifications about cyberbullying and slander and rules for FaceBook. The other side needs to know even though we disagree with guilt or innoncence , what they are doing is illegal, when it comes to doxing, etc.

          I am hoping that by reading the links they might stop what they are doing.

          • cielo62 says:

            Blushed Brown~ Alas, people willing to dox a grieving teen have NO respect for the law. After all, how often have YOU heard of a case being successfully prosecuted for online crimes (which are not child porn related)? They don’t see a danger, since rarely anyone is arrested or convicted.

          • blushedbrown says:


            >>>>>Alas, people willing to dox a grieving teen have NO respect for the law.

            Very true. That should of been obvious to me.

            I think the times are a changin’. I am in the belief that more and more people are being prosecuted and charged. I think with daytime shows bringing more light on the subject, like Dr. Phil and others, that they give the public ways of how to get help to bring this cases about.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Next, he will be 7’11” as they tell it, and 312 lbs., armed with a Kel-Tec… oh, wait. Too bad George Orwell could not be around to give commentary.

    • Malisha says:

      Once Trayvon cut through between the buildings and was no longer in view of the street he had no reason to feel afraid. He did not imagine a crazed “watch person” was after him; he thought it was a trolling pedophile in his car. Once he couldn’t be seen by passing cars he was OK and he wanted to finish his conversation with DeeDee. It’s so simple if you’re not trying to fit everything into the lies told by the murderer himself. Trying to fit all Trayvon’s actions into Fogen’s narrative is actually asking: “Why didn’t TRAYVON do what Fogen expected him to do at all times so there wouldn’t be any problems here?”

  32. Judy75201 says:

    OK, I am sure now that the vid Shannon posted is a parody. The guy mentions marijuana users who inject the drug risk spreading aids and hep C from used marijuana needles.

  33. colin black says:

    Also noticed with foggens attempt to duplicate the pain and or greif he inflicts on his victims.
    Ex Girlfreind sais he mirrored everything she said when she filed a restraining order.

    On the Hannnaty interveiw or somewhere foggen says he shot Trayvon .
    And since that night Ive never made it home or been home.???

    Not enough to steal his life steal his last words now trys to steal his victim hood.

    Trayvon never made it home
    foggen never made it home.

  34. colin black says:

    It is NOT Martins Timeline. It is the timeline as told by Zimmerman. So, this is a slant meant to encourage the notion that Trayvon COULD have made it home. This is Juniors mantra.

    Trayvon could have and should have made it home.
    However fogen decided he was god that night an stole Trayvons lifeblood an stole his dieing screams for mercy.
    Trayvon could have made it home if foggen hadnt hunted an ultimitely shoot him in the chest with a hollow point bullet.
    That expands to the size of a saucer by the time it loses velocity an stops centre of the body.
    Kind of hard to make it home after that.
    For foggen it was a life changeing event.

    For TRAYVON It was a life ending event.

    And an eternal Martyr was created . R I P Tray you can move on Tray von .
    Because justice shall be done.

    P.S…I know nothing is justice for Trayvons life was snuffed out with out rhyme reson or sanity.
    Justice wouldve been a loon like foggen never gettting his hands on a weapon let alone a coseared caarry permit.
    An a nod an a wink to patrol the gated comunity he an his wife were sqauting at rent free.

    Or more likely he was getting the funds to pay the land lord but preferred not to part with that money.
    Its realy hard for foggen types to phycicallly part with money.
    Its closer to there heart than family or freinds.

    • Jun says:

      Fogenhats could have went home too, so why didn’t he?

      Oh yeah, he was busy stalking and pursuing a kid, a kid who was trying to run away from him, that is why

      And why does Trayvon have to make it home, to have any rights?

      If that is the case, why did Fogenhats not just go home?

      What logic is there that because Trayvon was unable to make it home, that he was not being chased?

      I have an idea, why doesn’t Junior make it home, and STFU

      • Malisha says:

        Brilliant! Fogen was the one who could have made it home.

      • Malisha says:

        You know, it always infuriates me when people point out that the Jews should have left Europe before the boom dropped during the Holocaust. “Why didn’t they get out of there?” “The ones who got out were safe!” “They were afraid to give up their possessions and in the end they got killed!” Blah blah blah.

        Why didn’t the damn Nazis leave? Then the whole thing would have been a lot better in the end for everybody.

      • Jun says:

        The thing with the WW2 is many Jews were unable to leave due to many aggravating factors

        (1) The Nazis may have captured a loved one and a Jewish person may have gone back for them

        (2) Many of the Jews were simply captured

        (3) Many Jews were caught by surprise

  35. colin black says:

    What Colin? Aren;t you always the contrarian?

    Moi Contraie?

  36. seallison says:

    Headline: Martin Timeline Does Not Add Up

    Notice it says Martin Timeline NOT Zimmerman timeline. This is a Florida newspaper that potential jurors may be reading.

    It is NOT Martins Timeline. It is the timeline as told by Zimmerman. So, this is a slant meant to encourage the notion that Trayvon COULD have made it home. This is Juniors mantra.


    • ay2z says:

      And WESH uses the distorted image on the story header. Very strange they’d do that without thinking about it or looking at it.

    • cielo62 says:

      True! Seallison, if it were to discredit Zimmerman, it SHOULD have been called the Zimmerman Time line! But then I look at the source; a racist rag. Their slant is obvious, but it won’t make it into court. In court, it will be just THE timeline as stated by GZ. Still, I agree. It makes my blood boil to see even MORE caca thrown at Trayvon.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      You know, if the local TV continues with this “fair and balanced” reporting, the jurors are actually going to be surprised by the forensic evidence. Is that good for Z?

      • Malisha says:

        It’s good for the prosecution if the jurors are not flat out stupid. They sit there with a certain impression in their minds given to them by the press, and then as the trial moves forward, they begin to go, “huh? That doesn’t make sense!” over and over, and finally, they realize that all they have been reading is nonsense and that the thing played out much differently from how they imagined, and they get to feel like GENIUSES when they see the whole picture. It will be the experience of a lifetime in more ways than one.

    • blushedbrown says:


      Thanks for posting. This guy wrote a book also. Interesting how fast they had Martin moving. Superpowers of young black males to move with incredible speed. I see where this is going. You said it was a Florida based program, it figures.

  37. colin black says:


    I had similar thoughts as I reveiwed the hearing.
    When M O M Motion for continuace was deneid .
    He stood up in court as an officer of the law serveing within that district or circut .
    He swore an oath when called to the bar to never knowingly utter fasehoods /lie as an officer of the court.
    And to knowingly lie could result in diss barrment at least from that State.

    So to say that theres no money in the coffers to accomplish X Y or Z…
    And they cannot commply with the courts time schedule to depose all witnesses file an duplictre triplicate there sessions or paper there office walls with them.
    And with the resourses not at hand we are just not going to acomplish what the court is asking us to do?

    Is he saying he is incompetent council an apealing before the trial or verdicts in.
    Talk about cart before the horse.

    We have a tail wagging the dog

    A carthose pushing the wagon

    An an attorney not trying to close the door after a bolting horse.

    He isnt even bothering he is running for the emergancy exit.
    It was like telling the Judge we are not going to be ready to proceed because probably some dog will undeniably eat our home work.
    An my client erm shot the dog.
    He was Standing his ground at the time.

    • CherokeeNative says:

      I know exactly what you are saying Colin. MOM more or less told the Judge that he would not be ready come June despite her refusal to grant a continuance – and that is when she graciously reminded him that it was an Order of the Court. I did not miss that, and I see you didn’t either. I hope Judge Nelson remembers that defiance when MOM makes his next request for a continuance because I am confident there will be another.

      • cielo62 says:

        Anyone~ Can a judge force parties into court even if they say they are not ready?

      • groans says:

        The judge also reminded him that there are still four months before trial. But, yes, there will be another request for a continuance.

        Colin makes a good point. Would O’Mara flat out lie to the judge about not having any experts, if he does have experts? I don’t remember his exact words, but I seem to recall he was that direct about it.

      • Malisha says:

        ceilo, EVERY judge can force parties into court even if they say they are not ready.

  38. colin black says:

    It has occured to me that O’Mara may be intentionally “blowing” this case for reasons all his own

    Haveing foggen as a client the reasons would be to many to list.

    • ay2z says:

      maybe he’s just letting the driver blow his own case? With the help of his brother who’s probably in this for a new career by now.

    • groans says:

      Thank you, LLMPapa. He sure does have an a$$hole history – so much more than you could possibly fit in only one of your videos!

    • Thank you LLMPapa…………I am also haunted by the Chris Dorner case. I want to know the whole story of what happened during his time in the LAPD. He was in the Navy Seals Reserves and had his last meeting last Friday. What is your take on this?

    • bettykath says:

      Here is a reference to the manifestos:

      “Any honest comparison of the two manifestos makes it obvious that the longer version was not written by the same person who put up the original manifesto (supposedly written by Dorner). Unfortunately, unethical publishers and television networks prefer the sensationalism of the fake manifesto to the truth while honest publishers are in short supply. The writing style, education level, and focus are obvious distinctions between the original and the portions added to make up the second manifesto. The “fake” one was clearly written by someone more interested in pushing national issues like gun control and other issues than in discussing matters of importance to the life of Chris Dorner. In fact, Dorner made it clear that he wasn’t writing about the federal government in the original manifesto. Michael Ruppert (an expert on LAPD corruption), Cynthia McKinney (a six-term Congresswoman and International hero) and Jim Stone were all able to download the original before Dorner’s site was hacked and the fake was added.”

  39. CherokeeNative says:

    I don’t post very often, but read daily. Just a question – Am I the only one that feels like we are being duped by the legal defense team and that they truly have their experts lined up and money stashed away to cover their fees? I just can’t believe any attorney would be chasing rabbit holes before having covered the major aspects of defending the case. I agree that West was brought on because MOM is in over his head, but I cannot believe that they have sat back and squandered more than a quarter million without tending to the most basic aspects of a murder defense. Call me suspicious or whatever, but it would be professional suicide to be in the position that MOM claims to be in at this moment.

    • cielo62 says:

      CherokeeNative~  The defense team has posted several “lists of expenditures” that don’t include fees for experts or depositions. Unless they are flat out lying, we have to consider that they DID blow all that money on the mistaken belief it would just keep on coming in.

    • groans says:

      @ CherokeeNative re:

      I just can’t believe any attorney would be chasing rabbit holes before having covered the major aspects of defending the case.

      That is exactly what I have been thinking!!

      But it never occurred to me that they might have their experts and fees lined up already. Don’t know why I would take their statements otherwise at face value, but I did.

      But now you’ve got me pondering! Maybe the “office equipment” and/or some other things itemized on the defensefund website are little white lies to the donors and public because they, naturally, wouldn’t want to reveal all their activities.

      You just might have been the only one thinking that … UNTIL NOW!!

      Thanks for raising that possibility! I sure hope it’s the case, because I’ve been dumbfounded by what looks publicly like some frighteningly whacky priorities.

      • cielo62 says:

        groans~ OK. so now I am confused. MOM isn’t required to be truthful on his expenditures list? Hm…is this happening with or without GZs knowledge and consent?

      • groans says:

        Cielo – see also my more recent post.

        I don’t know the answer to your question, other than I feel certain that he has an obligation to be truthful with his client. I don’t know how truthful he has to be on the defensefund website. And I don’t remember all the figures they list and didn’t look it up – my mention of the office equipment was more in the way of a possible possibility (!).

        And as you know, this is mere pondering – looking at, or from, a new angle that CherokeeNative got me thinking about.

      • CherokeeNative says:

        @Groans ~ Call me untrusting, especially when it comes to the defendant and his legal team. LOL The legal defense fund website belongs to MOM and there is no regulation, rule or statute that says he has to account for the expenditures of the monies collected (except to his client) on an internet blog. It’s no different than Professor Leatherman’s blog or Dave Marinade’s blog – they disclose on it what they wish. While I don’t think he will purposely put anything on his website that is a blatant lie since it would be bad for his reputation, I do believe he will twist the words and use smoke and mirrors in such a way that those who are following it are led to believe one thing when it is actually another. It’s all in the interpretation of what he says. I just have this feeling like his experts are ready – maybe they haven’t turned over the actual written reports and only relayed their findings to MOM verbally – with the caveat when they get paid, they will turn over the reports and agree to testify. I also believe they have the funds if necessary to pay for those experts – but are using the “lack of funds” as an excuse to garner more sympathy and as a result donations from GZ’s sympathizers. Anyway, like you said, it’s something to ponder. 🙂

    • groans says:

      You know, LLMPapa’s video, below, also got me thinking of something else. He suggests that the killer’s father is probably not “broke.”

      And, really, we don’t KNOW that the defense fund is the killer’s only money source … do we? It could be that his father has come up with some cash for the defense – and/or other people could be contributing outside of the defense fund. The defense could have boatloads of money, but wouldn’t want to let on because they want to keep fund donations coming in. Hmmm…….

      Note to Self:
      Don’t believe everything – or perhaps much of anything – that the defense team says. Especially things that I might find easy to believe.

      • looneydoone says:

        How could RZ Sr be a disabled veteran ? He says he* retired *from the USArmy after 23 years (I suspect it’s 30) and his last 10 years in service was spent at the Pentagon.

      • bettykath says:

        The military pays retirement at 20 years.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Maybe it is a mental disability that popped up while he was filling out his separation papers.

      • Looolooo says:

        @Cercando Luce I’m convinced that GZ and RZJ inherited thier obvious mental illnesses from their obviously mentally ill father. I’ve said all along that just like the Anthony family, the Z’s are cursed with various dangerous mental disfunctions. And per usual, no one talks about it.

      • looneydoone says:

        Yes, the military pays a pension w/20 years service (actually it’s several months less for veterans of Sr’s era) He must’ve re-upped @ 20

        23 years service ? I think it’s closer to 28-30, considering his age
        He served as a Virginia Magistrate 2000-2006
        Prior to that, he served his final 10 years at the Pentagon.
        Leads me to believe his Army stint was approx 1967/69 w/retirement from the USArmy between 1997-1999

  40. Aunt Bea says:

    Differing opinions are essential.
    I don’t think GZ’s jacket or pants were ever on the wet ground at all.
    I am usually on the side of the defense.

    If I were in O’Mara’s shoes I would be fishing, too.
    Can’t really fault him for that, can we?

    My take on DeeDee’s social media is that if she wasn’t tweeting, texting or FBing, it is suspect. Social media is huge in young peoples’ lives and everyone knows it…..

    It has occured to me that O’Mara may be intentionally “blowing” this case for reasons all his own…..
    That Hannity thing was beyond me. He couldn’t stop GZ, but he sure didn’t, and shouldn’t, have appeared with him.

    • ay2z says:

      The Hannity thing, somehow looking at the background, the extra small head of O’Mara later on in the interview, the lack of a table, the obvious blending of the background on shoulder areas, lighting added to edges, doubt O’Mara was there the whole time.

  41. Judy75201 says:

    I don’t think fogen has ever, even once, actually said Trayvon’s name.

    • ladystclaire says:

      I don’t think he has either Judy but, I hope he sees and hears Trayvon’s voice everyday/night for the rest of his life. he shot and killed this kid for no reason what so ever and is trying to lie his way out of serving prison time for what he did. this POS is deserving of everything that he has got coming his way. I actually hate the sight of him and his family members, as well as his lying defense team.

      • ay2z says:

        yeah he did… once….

        Serino asked him, (think 1st interview on the 29th) if he knew his name, and he stumbles a bit but basically says it.

      • Judy75201 says:

        He, fogen, will never have a life after this, no matter what happens at court (altho I have no doubts about what will happen at court). He is tainted forever and will never recover, which is as it should be. He should have just shot himself.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Haven’t heard it, if he has…

  42. colin black says:

    Oysterman foggens mentor has explained he was proficient left or right .

    Writes with left hand

    Shooting ambidextrous.

    Lets face it
    Its far more simple to excert pressure on a triger than to sign your name with your non writting hand

    • Trained Observer says:

      I write with my left and don’t feel comfortable with phone unless it’s in left ear … but anything requiring strength, like hammering or playing around with a baseball bat requires the right hand. I gather this is fairly common.

      • Nefertari05 says:

        I’m the same way. Finesse with the left (writing, make-up), strength on the right (opening jars, tennis racket, baseball), remotes and phones go in either hand. Strangely enough, my dad is a mirror opposite (except for the make-up, of course 🙂 )

  43. colin black says:

    He used his left hand to hold Trayvons hoodie plus tshirt .
    An shot with his right hand .
    He has been pretty constant on that point.

    Not the holding onto Trayvons clotheing but useing his right hand to shoot with.
    I beleive him as he had no reason to lie .
    As to why he had to aim to avoid hitting his left hand?

    He has never explained why his left hand was near the central chest/gun shot area.

    Forensics tells us though that some one had a grip of Trayvons hoodie an tshirt when shot fired intermediate range/close.

    An common sence tells us whom that some one was..

    • Aunt Bea says:

      I do wish we had a better pic of TM’s clothing. I can almost see GZ holding TM’s sweatshirt. I think a tight grip would be evident on the shirt. Someone here “knew” where certain DNA rubbings were taken from on the clothing. Wish I did.

      The trajectory of the shot is too perfect.
      I can almost see GZ standing over TM and shooting him. Almost point blank, right through the heart.

      I think GZ is a bastard.

      • cielo62 says:

        Aunt Bea~ GZ might actually BE a bastard, since it seems we can’t trace even his parents in his family lineage!

      • gbrbsb says:

        Nasty word “bastard”. I have always found it derogatory as well as discriminatory when used in respect of birth circumstances over which one has no choice whatsoever, perhaps because I am one in that sense and as a kid suffered enormously because of it. I would never use the word in that sense at least and with your Spanish heritage Cielo I would have thought “hijo natural o biológico”, was a better call.

        • cielo62 says:

          gbrbsb~ just bouncing off some other comment calling him that word. Technically, it seems no one has been able to nail down his parentage, although it’s been agreed that Gladys is not his biological mom, but maybe an aunt. But nowadays, in the 21st century? The word doesn’t mean much at all, except as a slang cuss word.

  44. Dave says:

    Most guns (like violins) are designed and built to be used right handed. A semiautomatic pistol like the defendants can be used left handed but can be handled more efficiently right handed. It’s very difficult to shoot most repeating rifles and shotguns lefthanded because the fired cartridge case is ejected to the right. That’s why many lefties learn to shoot righthanded.

    The killer’s KelTec is a “double action only” semiautomatic pistol. It is designed to be carried with a full magazine and a cartridge in the firing chamber. This is how he carried it. It relies on a long, heavy trigger pull to prevent accidental discharges. The gun does not have or need a manual safety. To fire, all he had to do was draw, aim, and pull the trigger.

    • ay2z says:

      Thanks… that helps

    • groans says:

      Thanks, Dave. I thought I had read that all he had to do was draw, aim, and fire – and I posted a reply to Ay2z about it upthread. But I wasn’t sure I had understood it correctly and hoped you’d fill us all in. (I hadn’t seen yet that you already cleared it up before I even tried to!)

  45. Rachael says:

    Different opinions are a good thing. They make us think. They are a good thing. They make us think out of the box, as they say. Being rude and nasty are not good things. The diminish us as human beings.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I think debate on this case is good as long as the debater with an opposing viewpoint uses solid evidence to support his/her points.

      I use the evidence to support my points and I would like any person I debate to do likewise.

      Otherwise mutual respect between debaters cannot exist.

  46. colin black says:

    I wasnt even aware there had been or even was a differing of opinions.
    An if so then good as long as its civil differing opinions are what I live for…

  47. colin black says:

    I know nothing about fite arms never even held one let alone jired one.
    The type of weapon foggen had was a cheap basic model.
    Kal tech I think an you can have it all ready to fire at the press of the trigger.
    If you have pre loaded cocked it or whatever the technical term is.

    Some claim to hear him racking or cocking whatever on the non emergancy call when he gives out his name .
    Some think its hin slapping his torch.
    Anyway it also has no saftey feature like catch so you can whip it out an simply pull the triggger one time.

    OK that would be an upside down shot.
    But you can pull it out reposition it right way up
    Also takeing carefull aim not to shoot your own left hand.
    That would be dumb.
    An then simply pull the trigger,,shrug..one time..

    • ay2z says:

      This gun, from the pictures, you have to pull the top slide back to ready it for the first shot, then after that, the second round is ready to fire, etc. I can’t imagine, not from experience but from common sense looking at this rinky-dink thing, that you would never want to put it away in that position, nevermind in your hip holster where you might fall on it.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if he put his phone away somewhere other than his right hand jacket pocket, and got his gun out of the holster before he got anywhere near Trayvon. Held it hidden at the ready, then at some point, readied it before any grab.

      I’m not a gun toter or user either, just read up because this whole idea is foreign to us here– I didn’t even know what ‘a carrier’ referred to when people here talked about it, except for the context, I’d have thought it was the paper delivery kid, or gene carrier, or … like that 😉

  48. ay2z says:

    Bettykath, I’m new here– whatever the reason for upset, the outcome has been positive because you started this discussion and we have this article to remind us to think away from our position on any bandwagon, maybe look for answers in an uncomfortable dirction, or at ourselves in the rear view mirror, so to speak, if bandwagons have rear view mirrors.

    Looking forward to reading your posts. And getting to know who is who here.

    And I should thank everyone here for being patient as I blunder around a bit, I’ve been out of the loop of any discussions on blogs, and so my info is limited, am catching up, I hope.

    • cielo62 says:

      Welcome, ay2z! You’ll learn alot here. I did and am still learning!

    • bettykath says:

      welcome, ay.

      There is a lot of information here and a lot of discussion.

      The fuss is b/c I defended the defense’s request for information. This was interpreted by some as a defense of the defendant, therefore I was a troll. I’m not sure what a troll is, but it isn’t a compliment. I knew I was going against the general mindset so I was prepared for some backlash. Most seem to have respect for my posts and there have been some helpful criticisms of some of my previous comments.

      We’ve moved beyond that and into a real discussion that includes the needs of the defense team. Just rooting for the prosecution is only part of the whole picture. We don’t have to root for the defense but, imo, we should respect the job of the defense attorney and understand the needs of the defense. The trial needs to include the best defense possible in order for it to be fair and not a railroading.
      When we look at only one side of things, we can be blind-sided by something we never considered.

      • cielo62 says:

        bettykath~ AND to make sure that GZ doesn’t have a SHRED of a possibility for an appeal!

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        A troll is someone who posts something (regardless of how they actually feel about the matter) designed to get people riled up.

        They are trolling for others to take the bait and expend energy on angry replies so that they can sit back and laugh at them.

        And no, it is not a nice thing to be called. Especially as the result of a snap judgement that doesn’t seem to have involved the caller having given any serious consideration to the point which the callee was attempting to make, and that doesn’t seem to have involved any willingness to give the callee the benefit of the doubt until further conversation can clear things up one way or the other.

        Sometimes accusations of trolling even appear to be trolling themselves, something said just to elicit angry, emotional replies.


      • bettykath says:

        Good point, cielo.

  49. colin black says:

    Of course any info gathered on either jurours or witnesses internet activity an all nicknames ect would be confidential.

    Unless something relevent to strike a jorour or wittnesss for lieing or some thing petainent to the case is found.

    This would then be handed to the judge to deside relevence or no.

  50. ay2z says:

    William Walton, didn’t the shooter do a ‘grab’ on one of the previous interactions he had with someone in the past? That shows it was ‘in him’ to grab a stranger, not fear.

    That explains what I’ve been wondering about the left hand, figured there was a left hand grab, that’s his main hand, and he had to be extra careful because ‘it’s the hand he writes with.

    Did he learn to shoot right handed for some reason, deliberately for the mini 9, or did he learn on someone else’s gun, maybe dedicated for right handers because of a safety lock position ?

    I didn’t hear him rack the gun or describe how he alraady racked it then reholstered (which doens’t make any sense).

    Witness 11’s call has some redactions early in the call, so possible the racking was in that area, but then how’d he accomplish that with a left hand holding his struggling victim? Teeth?

    • William Walton says:

      ay2z, I have not information of the shooter grabbing anyone else. In addition, whether he was right handed or left handed didn’t matter since TM was shot as such a close range and he could have used either hand to pull the trigger. Again, with all that was going on that night, it would be hard to hear every sound. Also, keep in mind that the weapon had no safety. Dumb in my way as thinking as one could shoot oneself pulling the weapon out of the holster.

      • ay2z says:

        I’ll see if I can find that grab comment.

        Yes on the safety issue– not just for shooting one’s self, which is major, but if you are avoiding a gun with any safety, the purpose it to shoot without fail when you need it (well, that’s according to the shooter’s mentor at the gun range and purchase advisor for the gun, Dr. PHil source).

        I’ve read a little about the Kel-tec 8 and sometimes it jams after one round so you don’t want to waste the first shot going into your foot anyway).


    • onlyiamunitron says:

      If one uses a far more common and probably less expensive “right-handed” automatic, firing it one time left-handed and having the hot brass shell ejected into one’s face is probably incentive enough to learn to shoot right-handed if one is not going to go to the extra trouble and expense of obtaining a left-handed automatic.


      • William Walton says:

        onlyiamunitron, maybe this explains the slight ding on GZ’s nose. Possibility?

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          “…maybe this* explains the slight ding on GZ’s nose. Possibility?”

          *ejection of shell from automatic

          Not impossible, I suppose, but, I would think, unlikely, as he was using a right-handed automatic with his right hand and would have had to move his face way over to the right to get in the ejected shell’s path.

          Further, if you refer to the wound to which I think you refer, that was most likely inflicted by something that came at Zimmerman from his right side, traveling from his right toward his left.

          The ejected shell travelled in the same direction as from his left toward his right.

          And there doesn’t seem to be any dispute that he carried the gun on his right side and fired it in practice at shooting ranges with his right hand.


      • Dave says:

        To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a lefthanded semiautomatic pistol produced in significant numbers. Some righthanded semiautos have ambidextrous safeties though.

    • groans says:

      @ Ay2z re:

      I didn’t hear him rack the gun or describe how he alraady racked it then reholstered (which doens’t make any sense).

      (I’m going way out on a limb here, because I know nothing about guns other than what I’ve read about the Kel-tec model the killer used in this case. But here I go…)

      If I understood it correctly, I read somewhere that the killer’s gun does not require racking. Somehow it loads automatically, discharges the spent cartridge automatically, and loads the next bullet automatically. That is, the shooter does not have to pull the slide back before shooting.

      Would that make sense? Like I said, I may have misunderstood.

      • groans says:

        That said, there is a sound on the killer’s NEN that sure sounds like I would IMAGINE the sound of racking a gun would sound like. But it’s truly my imagination, because I’ve never heard a gun being racked.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        With a gun like Zimmerman’s, one chambers a round out of the magazine by working the slide back and then forward.

        After that, the recoil of a shot fired causes the slide to go back and forward, chambering the next round out of the magazine so that it’s ready to fire as soon as the trigger is pulled again.

        That’s how a semi-automatic works.

        The re-loading is automatic. The firing of the next round is not.

        If it were fully automatic, then one could pull the trigger and hold it down and not only would the next round be chambered, but it would also be fired, and the one after that, etc., until one released the trigger or the magazine was emptied of rounds.

        Zimmerman’s gun has what is called a hammer block safety.

        The hammer has to fall forward to cause the round in the chamber to fire.

        A hammer block safety blocks the hammer from doing so unless and until the trigger is pulled, which disengages the safety and releases the hammer.

        It’s common practice with that model gun and others like it to insert a full magazine, chamber a round, remove the magazine and replace the round just taken from the magazine, and re-insert the magazine in the gun.

        This results in the gun having as many rounds loaded in it as is possible and it results in the gun being ready to fire as soon as you pull the trigger.

        That way, if you do need to fire it, you can do so immediately without having to use both hands to hold it and work the slide and then having to flip an external lever or switch to disengage the safety, and if you need to fire more than once you have as many bullets loaded as is possible under the circumstances.


      • groans says:

        Thanks, onlyiamunitron. I will read your explanation several more times, and then hopefully I’ll understand! 😯

    • ay2z said: Did he learn to shoot right handed for some reason.. It may be that fogen is right-eye dominate so would use his right eye to aim at a target..and use right hand to shoot. As I’ve mentioned on another post…I took archery for a PE requirement in college. I am BTW right handed but left-eye dominant. I was doing quite poorly until the instructor came up to me and asked me what eye I use to take photographs, look into a microscope..etc. After I told her that I use my left eye, she had me switch to left-handed bow (thus switching hands for holding the bow). I did really well after that. When I was a child, and my dad was teaching me how to play putt-putt golf, I just naturally started to putt left handed. He remarked how that seemed somewhat odd but I never thought of it again until the archery class.

      • bettykath says:

        He may have learned to shoot right handed because the shell ejects to the right. Being right-eyed is also a reason and probably a better one. I’m left handed and left eyed and left footed. I have no idea why, with everything else being left dominant that I swing a bat and a golf club right handed. Being taught how to crochet, knit, paint using particular strokes by right handed people was interesting. Using tools, even screwdrivers!, made for righties is a challenge. Thank goodness for scissors for lefties.

  51. whonoze says:

    On an Internet forum like this, no one really knows what’s in anyone else’s mind or heart. Short text messages are notoriously short on nuance and context. You know what they say about “assume…” Reading emotion, attitude, subtext into someone’s posts is unwise, as it is highly likely to be wrong.

    IMHO the only trolls here are the people who accuse other people of being trolls on scant evidence. IMHO, the most offensive posts here are those that presume to conclude that someone else is being offensive or condescending. People should be free to write honestly, question the prevailing wisdom, etc. etc. without getting ripped.

    I appreciate bettykath’s posts for their content, and for her dispassionate tone, just as much as I appreciate Malisha’s passion and her ideas. I’m glad the Professor wrote this article, but I wish he hadn’t had to.

  52. colin black says:

    I do not feel she is a troll

    I just feel the assertions she made regarding Deedee as the basis for Omara’s search has no reasonable suspicion or even probable cause or a good belief it exists

    I just feel it is a big fishing expedition

    I understand that there is a very minimal possibility of her assertion existing

    however, considering the witness intimidation from Fogenhats’ gang, I feel she has the right to refuse to divulge whether she has the handles or not, and to even give them to Omara

    The problem is if Fogenhats or Omara does get that information, will she continue to be threatened is the issue…

    I personally feel that if they want to go fishing like this, and let us say Omara wins that argument for the fishing, if there is such handles… I feel the handles should be looked at in camera so that Fogenhats cant see them at the very least

    @Thing is Jun..

    And Im looking at your trial proscess through the eyes of a defendant.
    In this age if we partake of the magical inner web we leave a digital trail.
    Footprints fingerprint more apt.

    As a defendant sitting through the voir dire prosess Im going to expect my advocate to question each an everyone of them about there use of the internet an names handles ect.
    Those are the people whom will be judgeing me.

    I will also expect the exact same information if it exists from any wittnesses in my trial those are people whom may be accuseing me an makeing statements alleging to pertain to my character.
    I would want both me an the jury made aware of anything derogatry said about me by said wittness..In any form of twadle twitterings or chirpings

    Its not as thease are thoughts written in a personal journal or diary.
    Meant only for your eyes.
    Once you put it out in social media its fair game for scrutiny..m o o.

    • Jun says:

      That is not entirely true.

      Why do you think you have the ability to make social media accounts private?

      It is also a homicide defendant and there have already been attempts to witness intimidate her, but the perps had the wrong person, which is why there has to be some middle ground to protect her safety.

      Of course Omara will question issues brought forth but he also has to look at it from the other party’s standpoint in that, her life is threatened and if you google her witness codename, there’s a huge list of blogs dedicated to harassing and threatening and attacking her, as well as attempted attacks to intrude the witness’ privacy.

      Just like a warrant for a search is needed, a subpoena can be refused to be divulged by a person and I believe she has the right to protect her privacy

      I totally understand and foresee what the defense plans to do, it is too attack everything, but mainly attack Deedee, and they do not have much to disprove her except innuendo but unfortunately her testimony is supported by phone records, gps, and w18, w2, w1, Mary Kutcher & Roomate, the 911 scream tape, the dropped cellphone south of Trayvon’s body, there is no forensic evidence of any attack perpetrated by Trayvon at all, even in self defense, Fogenhats’ own NEN phone call, Fogenhats’ history, etc

      I understand the need for a fair trial and I am all for it, but the kid Trayvon deserves a fair hearing too and deserves the same legitimacy, as well as the witnesses

  53. Judy75201 says:

    Trayvon did not hold Fogen down. Trayvon did not touch Fogen. Forensics & DNA have and will prove that.

    • bettykath says:

      Do you think it possible that Trayvon could have held him down with his body and with his hands on the defendant’s jacket sleeves?

      • Judy75201 says:


      • Rachael says:

        Sorry to jump in here, because I haven’t read anything yet and don’t know what you are referring to, but If he had, he certainly would not have been able to rain down MMA-style blows to his GZ’s face or put his hands over his face to smother him, which was supposedly why GZ was in fear for his life. So I guess what I’m saying is, IF Trayvon did that (which I don’t believe he did), then he wasn’t hitting GZ and he wasn’t trying to smother him, so there was no reason for GZ to be in fear for his life.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          You mean you didn’t hear about octo-Trayvon who hit Zimmerman with both of his hands while he smothered Zimmerman with both of his other 2 hands while he used both of his other other 2 hands to dribble Zimmerman’s head on the sidewalk like a basketball while he used his other other other 2 hands to reach for Zimmerman’s gun?


      • cielo62 says:

        bettykath~ any of those actions you suggested would have left DNA evidence, where none was found. GZ didn’t even have any bruises on his arms, so NO. GZ was never touched. (except in the head)

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        No, Betty. Trayvon never held gz down with with his hands on gz’s jacket sleeves. Even gz doesn’t say that, gz says is contradicted by the forensic evidence.

        The evidence does NOT back up gz’s claim of being attacked, punched in the face, and having his head slammed on the pavement…. What the forensic evidence shows is that Trayvon did NONE of those things……….NONE of gz’s blood or DNA was found on Trayvon’s hands.

        gz was never being held down on his back, Betty. If gz had been on the bottom, the blood trails from gz’s 2 lacerations would NOT have been running downward as shown in the photos. In fact, that blood would have been SMEARED on the back of gz’s head.

        What I don’t understand, Betty, is why you ask a troll-like question instead of taking the TIME to look through the evidence for a way to prove the idea that you have a question about.

        A question can be a vehicle for insinuating that something might just be true. A way to put an unfounded claim in the minds of the audience reading this blog. The gz supporters, as you know
        constantly make claims that are unsupported by the evidence.

        Please, if you wish to support gz intelligently and not in a troll-like manner……..state your theory and BACK IT UP with the evidence. Otherwise, I feel as if you are just toying with us..

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        The fact is that gz was in control when he shot Trayvon dead.

        from…..transcript of Serino’s interview (Tape 1- 2-29, 2012) with gz:

        [[ Serino: Compact? And you were able to overpower him as far as holding his wrist, you gained wrist…we call it wrist control…you gained wrist control on him basically, and you were able to basically liberate both hands…
        Zimmerman: Yes, sir. ]]
        [[ Serino: OK. You raised it up. Do you remember hitting him with the pistol?
        Zimmerman: No, sir.
        Serino: Distance wise…
        Zimmerman: I just remember not wanting to hit my own hand, I was holding his, it went past my hand, my body. ]]

        You can see that gz emphasized that gz was holding Trayvon’s hand and, in fact had so much control of Trayvon that gz had the time and control to carefully avoid hitting his own hand as he fired his gun at Trayvon’s heart.

        And therefore, gz has NO claim to self defense.

        In case you do not understand what wrist control is, Betty.

        Wrist control is a “hold” technique.

        The following is a link with a person demonstrating various wrist control techniques:


      • bettykath says:

        You all have thoughtful comments says:
        February 8, 2013 at 9:19 pm

        No, Betty. Trayvon never held gz down with with his hands on gz’s jacket sleeves. Even gz doesn’t say that, gz says is contradicted by the forensic evidence.

        The evidence does NOT back up gz’s claim of being attacked, punched in the face, and having his head slammed on the pavement…. What the forensic evidence shows is that Trayvon did NONE of those things……….NONE of gz’s blood or DNA was found on Trayvon’s hands.
        I discount everything gz says. There may be a nugget of truth there, but the whole isn’t true. It’s far more likely that the truth is along the lines of gz reversing roles, that is, what he says Trayvon did, is what he did.

        gz was never being held down on his back, Betty. If gz had been on the bottom, the blood trails from gz’s 2 lacerations would NOT have been running downward as shown in the photos. In fact, that blood would have been SMEARED on the back of gz’s head.
        There are witnesses who say that both were on the ground with Trayvon on top and gz on the bottom, both of them prone.

        I believe that gz’s blood trails came from later, after he stood over Trayvon after shooting him. It’s not clear from any of the evidence exactly when gz got his boo-boos but it certainly wasn’t how he described.

        What I don’t understand, Betty, is why you ask a troll-like question instead of taking the TIME to look through the evidence for a way to prove the idea that you have a question about.

        A question can be a vehicle for insinuating that something might just be true. A way to put an unfounded claim in the minds of the audience reading this blog. The gz supporters, as you know
        constantly make claims that are unsupported by the evidence.
        A question can also be a vehicle to help get someone think through to find an answer that they might not have considered previously. I guess I could just make assertions but that would be total waste of time.

        Please, if you wish to support gz intelligently and not in a troll-like manner……..state your theory and BACK IT UP with the evidence. Otherwise, I feel as if you are just toying with us..
        I don’t toy. In this post you’ve greatly underestimated me.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        No. When DeeDee’s phone cut off, shortly after hearing Trayvon cry out, “Get off!” he had less than a minute more to live. At the very, very beginning of the first 911 call, if you listen with headphones, you hear Trayvon cry out “Get off!” George already had a hold of him. Trayvon did not hold his killer down.

      • Judy75201 says:

        Betty, are you actually saying you don’t think fogen bled until he was over Trayvon? And that’s why the trails are downward?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my post, Betty.

        I understand you to say that your interpretations of the events of that night are not based on gz’s story or explanations.

        Am I to understand that your question was just to make me think
        because I need to polish up some loose ends.

        Or is your question just like an O’Mara test question to see if such a viewpoint would hold any water in a juror’s mind.

        Or, is it to see how we use the evidence.

        I would like to hear how you came to your Trayvon idea. What cause that idea to pop into your head?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Just a little advice, Betty. When you refer to witnesses, it is more helpful in a debate to list their specific witness numbers. That way, we can discuss each of your witnesses individually.

      • bettykath says:

        oh, dear, I really stirred things up this time with no intention to do so. I’ll try to answer all of your comments here.

        The question I posed about Trayvon holding gz down was in response to Judy’s assertion that Trayvon didn’t touch gz. Based on witness statements, I disagree. Maybe I should have just said that.

        What may have happened…..
        First off, the defendant is a liar. If anything that follows matches some aspect of one of his stories, it is a coincidence. This means I don’t believe that Trayvon attacked him in any way. I don’t believe that Trayvon straddled him MMA style nor did he bang gz’s head on the concrete, nor did Trayvon attempt to smother him. gz had no legitimate reason to be afraid for his life or limb.

        Second, we don’t know with certainty what happened after the NEN call. There are several possible scenarios that have been posted here and most of them are very reasonable.

        There are witness statements that indicate that both gz and Trayvon were on the ground, prone, with Trayvon on top. This is why I think that Trayvon may have been trying to hold gz down, where gz neutralized Trayvon by getting wrist control and getting Trayvon off him. gz’s extra weight would be helpful in a wrestling type situation in getting out from under Trayvon once the wrist lock was in place. This would give gz control over Trayvon so he could pull his gun, if it wasn’t already out, aim and shoot. The wrist lock can be quite painful and that may be what brought about the horrible painful scream from Trayvon. Were they still prone? I doubt it. Were they standing? Possibly, even probably. But I don’t know. I expect that a prosecution expert will enlighten us. For sure, gz had control and absolutely no reason to fear for his life or bodily injury.

        It is after the shot that one or more witnesses say that gz was on top of Trayvon and that gz was standing and walking around. There are many theories about how gz acquired the lacerations on his head but I think the blood flows came about while he was bent over Trayvon after he shot him. Personal opinion is that he got his bloody nose from the recoil of his gun which he fired with one hand and with his elbow bent (see his video just before his voice stress test).

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks for taking the time to explain your ideas, bettykath. It will be nice to have future discussions with you.

      • Judy75201 says:

        Betty, you don’t know what witness statements will be introduced at trial, but you do (*hopefully) know what forensic/DNA evidence was NOT recovered from Trayvon’s hands. I find it hard to believe anyone would, in an honest manner, put forth suppositions that oppose that evidence.

      • unitron…..lol…. When you put together all the things that fogen accuses Trayvon of doing to him, Trayvon would have needed eight arms…..but I only saw two in Trayvon’s pictures…I wonder where he hid the others…..hmmmmmmm… 🙂

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        I agree 100% with you when you write:

        Sorry to jump in here, because I haven’t read anything yet and don’t know what you are referring to, but If he had, he certainly would not have been able to rain down MMA-style blows to his GZ’s face or put his hands over his face to smother him, which was supposedly why GZ was in fear for his life. So I guess what I’m saying is, IF Trayvon did that (which I don’t believe he did), then he wasn’t hitting GZ and he wasn’t trying to smother him, so there was no reason for GZ to be in fear for his life.

  54. William Walton says:

    Bettykath, I find your comments both interesting and to the point. It would appear that as an Investigative Journalist you proceed much like we in science do. You propose a hypothysis and through peer review it either become a theory or leads one down a more interesting avenue. Great Job especially coming from me since I was not too impressed with Journalism Majors while at the University. Sorry! However, you being an Investigative Journalist, here is another avenue you might want to investigate. I stated in the past that I believed both TM and GZ were standing when the shot was fired. I do not put much emphasis on eye witnesses when the weather conditions are night and it is raining. They are basically going on sound data. My hypothysis is that TM turned to GZ while being pursued and inquired why are you following me. This pissed off GZ and TM turned to leave. GZ grabbed TM with his left hand by the left side of TM’s hoodie so that TM would not get away and, thus, turned TM around to face him while still holding on to the left side of TM’s hoodie with GZ’s left hand. Thus, when GZ had to aim to shoot TM, he by his own statement, had to be careful not to shoot his left hand. I hope the prosecution or someone else conducts a reenactment of this event. This reenactment should show both TM & GZ in a standing position & also with GZ on the bottom & TM being on top. Of course minus the weapon. The screaming by TM most likely occurred when he was grabbed and turned around and GZ already had his weapon drawn.

    • bettykath says:


      You gave me a great compliment in suggesting that I’m an investigative journalist. I’ve done a number of things in my life but journalism isn’t one of them.

      The scenario you suggest is a possibility. I don’t know if the prosecution will be able to show exactly what happened. There are witnesses who saw both Trayvon and the defendant on the ground but as far as I know, there is no one who saw exactly what happened when the shot was fired. There are elements, e.g. the direct, no-angle shot, that suggest that they might have been standing.

      I think the prosecution knows more than it’s telling at this point but it gets into interpretation of the evidence by an expert. The evidence itself is available to the defense, the interpretation by an expert is not. That is one reason that the defense should have some experts looking at the evidence to determine the alternatives. The prosecution will present the alternative/s that support their theory of the crime. It will be up to the defense to present its own contradicting theory if it has one.

      • William Walton says:

        Bettykath, sorry for saying that you were an Investigative Journalist. However, with the depth of your investigation, your way with words, and your way with phases led me to befieve you were a Journalist. Another pount to ponder, TM and GZ were standing when the shot was fired. By the Physics law of gravity, both would end up on the ground with GZ most likely on top since he would be the live weight. Also, one should keep in mind that this incident happened in a very short time frame, with darkness, and rain. What I thought I saw may not be what actually transpired.

      • bettykath says:

        LOL. There was a period of time when I put out a newspaper for two different organizations, as a writer, story collector, editor and layout. Forgot all about that.

      • bettykath says:

        and you’re right about what we “see” but didn’t really. I think the rain had stopped by the time the witnesses were involved, but it was very dark.

    • are you saying they were standing up that long, the confrontation and screaming took several minutes. they had to hit the ground at some point, a witness saw him get off of Tray after the shot. but you did see MMLPapa’s video with the 17″. the perfect distance if gz and Tray were standing face to face. it’s so scary how it matches.

      new video!

    • Nefertari05 says:

      William –
      With regard to the position of fogen and Trayvon when the shot was fired, a local Florida news station consulted a forensics expert regarding that and the timeline fogen claims. They showed the results in a two part interview on the 6 & 11pm broadcasts. Here’s an excerpt from the article, followed by the link to the complete article and the video of the interviews.

      “Michael Knox, a retired Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office detective and crime scene investigator, published some of the findings in his book, “Intermediate Range: The Forensic Evidence in the Killing of Trayvon Martin”‘
      “Among his conclusions:
      •If Zimmerman’s retelling of the event were accurate, the confrontation Zimmerman described with Martin would have occurred much sooner than it actually did;
      •Zimmerman covered more time and distance after leaving his truck that night than he revealed to police;
      •based on the times and distances Zimmerman said he covered, Zimmerman would have still been on the phone with Sanford police when he claims he was attacked by Martin;
      •had Martin walked directly to his destination, his father’s girlfriend’s townhome, he would have made it there safely before Zimmerman ended his nonemergency call to Sanford police;
      •Martin was in fact leaning over Zimmerman when the fatal shot was fired, just as Zimmerman has maintained.

      To reach that last conclusion, Knox examined both a Florida Department of Law Enforcement report on the gunshot’s impact to the hooded sweatshirt Martin was wearing and the autopsy report describing the gunshot wound to the body.”


      I don’t want that last part to be true, but if I accept the other conclusions as accurate, based on what is known, I’m going to have to take the bad with the good. By that, I mean that I’ll have to accept that O’Mara may contact this guy, and he may prove beneficial to the defense, if they can meet his fee (maybe they’ll just buy the book?). I’m not really sure how that can dilute the prosecution’s case, considering the prosecution deemed any action Trayvon took as self-defense, in the second bond hearing. But, I am worried about the possibility of creating reasonable doubt. Especially in a juror who may be looking for some.

      Maybe someone could address the “reasonableness” of reasonable doubt in a situation where Trayvon was shot in “top” position, but that he would have never been in that “top” position, but for the need to defend himself from the psychopathic stalker. I still believe fogen was holding the hoodie and undershirt, and pulling them down and away from Trayvon. But, for our purposes, I think we have to now proceed under the assumption that the defense will have at least one “expert” placing Trayvon on top of fogen when the shot was fired. How would one minimize or get around that? (Sorry for the novel length post)

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Nefertari –

        And what were Michael Knox’s explanations for the lack of blood smear on the back of Zimmerman’s head (against the wet grass, if he were on the bottom)?

        What was his explanation of the blood flow forward on Zimmerman’s face, which could only happen if Zimmerman’s head was leaning over Trayvon?

        His explanation the grass on the front tips of Zimmerma’s boots?

        His explanation for the grasping motion that Zimmerman makes in both videos, where he unconsciously pantomimes grasping Trayvon’s shirts as he fired his shot?

        How does Knox describe how Zimmerman would be able to draw his gun from his right REAR inside-the-waistband holster, now pressed between Zimmerman and the ground?

        And how supposedly, according to Zimmerman, Trayvon (he of the X-Ray eye?) could see the concealed gun under Zimmerman if Trayvon were on top, and why wouldn’t he yank his body away as Zimmerman drew his gun?

        Trayvon just simply sat docilely like a kid on a merry-go-round while Zimmerman carefully placed his shot?

        And if Zimmerman were not grasping the shirts, why would Zimmerman be afraid he might shoot his own hand?

        Knox is simply ripping off the analysis that The Professor did LAST SUMMER as to the forensics of the shot fired.

        I’m waiting for the forensic report on the fiber requested. The cotton on levis and the cotton on hoodies shed easy – much easier than the polyester jacket that Zimmerman was wearing.

        So far all this guy addresses is the fact that there was an airspace between shirts and Travon’s torso.

        We knew all that months ago, thanks to Fred Leatherman’s contacting the authorities.

        Trayvon never knew the creepy old man got out of his shtruck and was after him. Trayvon was in an area where vehicles could not drive. He was tired. He felt he was safe. He had a few minutes left before the game was to start at 7:30 p.m. He was talking to his girlfriend – not necessarily the kind of talk you want to have with an 8-year old snuggling up to you, eating the skittles.

        This was the last few minutes outside for a 17-year old kid to talk privately with his girlfriend, whom he missd Are we all so old we can’t remember how Trayvon felt at that sweet time?

      • Malisha says:

        Knox’s conclusion that Trayvon was “leaning” over Fogen at the time he was shot does not confirm Fogen’s story at all, nor does it really wash. There are five ways the same gunshot could have happened, and still produced the physical evidence it did produce, and not a single one of the five confirms Fogen’s story:

        1. Trayvon could have been leaning over Fogen;

        2. Fogen could have been leaning over Trayvon, who had just fallen, having lost his footing in the wet grass while he tried to escape Fogen’s grasp on his shirt/hoodie, so that Fogen was still holding onto the shirt/hoodie when he fired the bullet;

        3. Fogen could have been grasping Trayvon’s hoodie/shirt while Trayvon twisted away in fear, although both of them were still on their feet or had gotten to their feet after wrestling on the ground;

        4. Fogen and Trayvon could have both been on the ground with Fogen on his left side and Trayvon on his right, while Trayvon attempted to get up in order to run away, but Fogen had a strong grip on his hoodie/shirt;

        5. Fogen and Trayvon could have both ended up on the ground after the initial assault and Trayvon could have been attempting to get up to his feet while Fogen pulled him by his hoodie/shirt so that the final posture of the two at the time of the gunshot was Trayvon higher and “over” Fogen and Fogen aiming and firing from a physically lower (to the ground) position.

        The one thing that is not indicated by these physical evidentiary facts is that Trayvon was sitting on Fogen’s chest beating him and reaching for his right hip at the time of the shot, especially if Fogen “pinched” Trayvon’s hand in order to prevent his getting the gun, and then held his other hand in a wrist lock. Does not compute.

      • cielo62 says:

        Nefertari05~ I think the total lack of debris on GZs jacket and dry state of his pants after a rainy day will prove that GZ was never on the ground beneath Trayvon.  The results we see could just have easily been from Trayvon pulling away from a standing position. Once an “expert” develops a pet theory, it’s very hard to get them to see alternatives. After all, he IS an “expert” and can’t possibly be wrong. (yeah, right)

      • Jun says:

        It sounds like the expert for the defense does not want to admit that the defendant was stalking him, so he is trying to put it nicely for the defense, and everything he stated can be rebutted

        There’s no evidence Trayvon was leaning on Fogenhats when the shot was fired

        w18, Mary Kutcher & Roomate, all stated after shooting the kid, he simply rose up to his feet, off the victim

        The forensics and ballistics suggest that when Fogenhats was shooting Trayvon, he was facing a northern direction, as shown by where the bullet casing was found in relation to Trayvon’s body

        The gun muzzle only made contact with the hoodie but was an intermediate range gunshot wound to the chest, so the hoodie and undershirt had to have been pulled forward from Trayvon’s body, for those two unique readings to take place

        The hoodie also had to be pulled down, and to the left of Trayvon, for the hoodie and undershirt to line up with the chest gunshot wound

        so the only real conclusion is the defendant grabbed the victim by the shirt and shot him in the heart

        which signifies that the defendant was pulling the victim towards him and the victim was still trying to get away

        according to forensics, Trayvon leaning on Fogenhats would not be possible, due to the gunshot chemistry

      • bettykath says:

        And maybe this expert wants to be hired by the defense to explain this bit of forensics. It’s the kind of information the defense needs and this guy needs publicity for his book so he might be willing to work for a minimum amount.

        The prosecution expert will give a scenario based on the forensics that will undoubtedly be damaging to the defense. The defense needs an expert to counter that scenario.

      • Mike says:

        IMO,this was a rolling fight and in my mind it explains how the two moved from the sidewalk to the grass without standing up. W6’s account when he last seen the two they where both on the concrete. but after the shot was fired they where in the grass, so if you ask yourself what’s the easiest way to move wile some ones on top of you, it would be to roll and not shimmy.IMHO

      • leander22 says:


        Are the two top articles what you have in mind?

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @ Leander,

          I’m having a problem correlating which question is made to which post I made, but the critical report(s) I think you are asking me about [re-reading] is :

          Was Trayvon Martin Attempting to get Away when George … Jul 15, 2012 – Intermediate range starts at 1″. In addition, the forensic evidence of a contact gunshot was found on the two layers of TM’s garments, thus not …


  55. blushedbrown says:

    Please check mail. 🙂

  56. ay2z says:

    I don’t understand something, can someone please explain the use of personal attack, villification in the media as part of a defense, or prelude to a defense, when personal attack in argument, or ad hominem, is a fallacy? Obviously personal attack works. Is it because the jury doesn’t know that it’s false argument and isn’t it within the power of a judge to call enough is enough on the likes of Mark O’Mara and his team?

  57. onlyiamunitron says:

    “I support BettyKath’s right to ask the questions that occasionally cut against the grain of group-think.”

    Nice to see at least someone receives that courtesy around here.


    • gbrbsb says:

      Agree absolutely in respect of those somewhat bruised by a few posters unable to accept contrary arguments or questioning of their logic and knowledge.

      • Eric says:

        Evidently it’s Bettykath who’s bruised since professor wrote half a post defending her. Why is she exempt from having her so called logic and agenda questioned? If accepting contrary arguments is the way to go, why the post from Leatherman? If others should toughen up, shouldn’t’ Bettykathy? Let’s walk it like we talk it.

      • cielo62 says:

        gbrbsb~ I wouldn’t take kindly to being labelled a troll. Would you? That is what started this particular mess. One line of thought from bettykath had eric going ape-caca and calling her a troll. I think the Professor investigated and made a ruling. Eric is still not with the program.

        • gbrbsb says:

          Think you have me wrong. I´m with the professor and BettyKath who, IMO, shows intelligent reasoning in her posts. I have been here since the second post and I too have been bashed about on several occasions, with some insinuating I was a troll because I left the group´s “straight and narrow”. I feel strongly about it and should the blog become no more than a “cheer group” for the prosecution, as it seems on occasions when there is a dissenting opinion to the hardcore, I could not continue.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Good posting of song at just the right time, blushedbrown.

    • cielo62 says:

      unitron~  that’s because bettykath has EARNED it, by ALWAYS using the evidence. You, on the other hand, do not.

      • @cielo62, i have no idea why you feel the need to criticize Eric as if you’re some sort of superior here? i don’t appreciate what she said yesterday either. are you going to attack me? do you even know what we’re talking about? back off!

        • cielo62 says:

          shannoninmiami~ yes, actually I DO know what I am talking about. Eric has been being a right pain the arse with bettykath from his very 1st post. Personally I have never seen you get so upset with anyone here before, so I am not refering to you. Respectfully, I will NOT back off. I feel the emotions have taken you beyond the reason for a fair trial for the defendent. I hate him, his entire family as well. BUT our legal system MUST work for all or it becomes a farce for all. When you play chess, you try to think like your opponent so that you can beat your opponent by making moves before he does. Unfortunatley the court system works likewise. Our opponents pieces are mostly on the board; how will they be used? We are confident that our pieces are in better positions, but chess games, wars and many trials have been lost through hubris. It would crush me if GZ were to walk over some strategy not thought out, planned for or considered. After the war is won, we celebrate. Until then, we strategize. Please consider where you are right now. I have never seen you write with such anger.

      • seallison says:

        I have had problems with bettykath at times. It appears that statements about a defence prospective are like a – trying it on for size. I do not think anyone on this blog would want to assist the defence in any way, shape, form, or function. There is no need to look at it from a defence POV and see where it takes us. If bettykath is using evidence, cielo62, then there would be no question that the killing of Trayvon Martin was a murder. That is where the evidence leads.

        DeeDees history, Trayvons history have absolutely NO bearing on this case and the night of February 26th.

        Some are once again losing sight of the case. Trayvon could have been a thug and DeeDee could be a dope dealer. What matters are the forensics, the defendants inconsistencies, and witness statements.

        I, for one, will not help the defence to find out what sticks nor will I excuse the defence for wanting to depose the Attorney for the Martin family, the Martin family themselves, and for their attempt to discredit both Trayvon and DeeDee. Sorry, bettykath. I have often thought you a troll. If the professor thinks you R not, then I will carry on. There is no need for me to make comment about comments made defending the defence.

        • cielo62 says:

          seallison~ planning a strategy is not the same thing as helping the defense. But I see that is not an argument that will change your mind, so we will agree to disagree, and as you say, let’s carry on.   I still wonder what will happen if MOM really doesn’t have anything by the deadline; will the judge hold him in contempt?

          • seallison says:

            This is why I say what I have said. Nothing will be admissible and the fishing expedition will do nothing but delay the case. By the time he gets it, the authenticity of every comment, etc. will need to be authenticated, etc…..and, for what!

            To be used to possibly impeach an EAR WITNESS. Utter nonsense.

            She wasn’t there, she doesn’t know the lay of the land, she didn’t know there was a mail shed (no matter what the CTH thinks). GZ never mentioned the mail kiosk in his call.

            The CTH is obsessed with DeeDee. In fact, they think there are three. This is the ONLY reason why the defence thinks they will find anything. They think Mr. Crump et al have coached her and the other 2 DeeDees. Funny, they didn’t have the call logs when the interview took place to indicate that yes the time of her call jived.

            GZ wasn’t even arrested at that time.

            Yes, there is a difference in planning a strategy and helping the defence. All you need to do is go over to the GZ defence group to find out any type of defence strategy you need.

            You are right, I will not change my mind.

      • Hmmmmmm….Here we go again….family members squabbling….

      • leander22 says:

        Seallison, see now I have finally forgotten your earlier name–no I haven’t, grahase, wasn’t it?

        True Zimmerman does not talk of the mail shed but he talks about the mailboxes. And if you don’t believe O’Mara will take that bit and run with it and try to irritate DeeDee you are dreaming. He may show around a couple of articles of reports about the location in Miama news and/or papers.

        The three DeeDee’s over at the CTH are only the peak of an iceberg. A “democrat” who locates herself on the left (TalkLeft) has been pretty obsessed with DeeDee too for quite some time now. From “polite Jeralyn’s” perspective DeeDee is completely untrustworthy. She groups her with a series of unreliable witnesses. DeeDee will be really viciously attacked by O’Mara in his cross-examination with the most polite surface manners.

        I have absolutely no doubt about that.

  58. Malisha says:

    Now I need to address BettyKath about what I meant to write for about a week now, and haven’t done the work.

    First, I’m grateful for this thread from the Professor and agree with it.

    Second, I want to address the idea that we on the blog display “blood lust” for Fogen. I don’t think we really do and in fact, I think many of us would be absolutely opposed to Fogen getting the death sentence for his crime. I’m sure I would.

    But our feelings are important, in judging what we say, how we express our feelings toward Fogen, and how much we let ourselves show vitriol and rage toward him and his handlers. (Yes, THEY are the “handlers”; Crump and the people helping the Fulton-Martins are NOT “handlers,” but helpers.)

    One of the reasons that we let ourselves express our rage towards Fogen and his band of merry bigots is to diffuse the toxic feelings it makes us experience. To be silent in the face of enormous outrage hurts. I went through many, many, many custody battles where my lawyers told me that I could not say a single thing, or even show a tiny sign, of anger or displeasure toward my ex-husband, because it would automatically mean to a judge that I was a bad wife, a bad mother, and a bad woman; to keep custody, I had to tolerate the most outrageous insane lies and appear not to mind and never to want to retaliate with TRUTH. The real story of what had happened in our marriage was something I was allowed to tell a psychiatrist or an expert witness; but never never NEVER allowed to show or say in court, no matter what.

    Know what? That made me SICK.

    I first heard about the Trayvon Martin case from a friend who is African American and she and I discuss everything; we are intellectual buddies. When I first heard of it, I wanted to google it and she couldn’t remember the name of the victim or where the killing occurred in Florida. She said, “google the words unarmed teen Florida shot gated community” and you’ll find it. BOOM Trayvon Martin’s picture appeared and the story, at that point in time, was very bare. A community with a lot of crime, a neighborhood watch captain, an accidental killing, claims of self-defense, blah blah. Within a week a clearer picture arose.

    The rage that has built in me since that time has been related to the following events:

    1. The flip way the police said, essentially, “we have to believe the shooter because nobody told us differently” when the other person who COULD tell a different story was dead already;

    2. The stupid comments made by Lee, Morganstern and Wolfinger, leading me to believe they did not think they even had to present a coherent THEORY for self-defense;

    3. The sudden and swift attack on Trayvon Martin’s character;

    4. The number of people who dismissed the whole thing as “a wannabe cop met a wannabe thug and it turned out badly”;

    5. The fake broken nose;

    6. The two lawyers giving out statements about Fogen as if they were facts, and then suddenly quitting on the same day when they realized a charge was coming down;

    7. The total reversal of the idea of SYG, when obviously it was the teen-ager who had a right to stand HIS ground, and there was no right on the part of the pursuer to “stand” ground that he acquired in an out and out HUNT;

    8. The dumb but conniving father of the perp;

    9. Fogen calling his victim “the suspect” in his written statement;

    and, last but not least,

    10. The idea that any injury on the part of a killer justifies a killing. THAT after a thousand women have been found guilty of murder after they killed men who had beaten them (with documentation of the abuse) for years and years and years…

    BettyKath, my respected friend, the blogging I do is helpful in keeping me from running out and killing somebody. It is not blood lust. It is a way for me to let off this steam that, at our point in time in our country that built itself up to its present stature on the bones of a million dead slaves and descendants of slaves, we still will not recognize a clear case of victimization and actual frank cold-blooded murder against an African American kid because he is considered less than important enough to merit protection. It’s just too much for me to bear, and so I express my rage, yes, even my hatred, for the crowd of despicable bigots who to this day uphold the right of a killer to kill above the right of an innocent kid to NOT BE KILLED.

    I don’t have blood lust. I have a deep need to keep saying what I need to say to calm my system down when the adrenalin would have me do more than sit at these keys and eke out a statement that can bring down my blood pressure for a few hours. I say this all not in Trayvon Martin’s name — after all I never knew him — but in my own, and that is why you will see, and will not miss, my personal fury and indignation in my lines.

    I am using language, and my relationships with the other people on the blog, to assist myself in not going totally apeshit crazy. I am trying to make the pen mightier than the sword, when after all, on the night in question, 2/26/2012, pens couldn’t help Trayvon Martin.

    I have no problem with anything you have written on this blog.

    About the fishing expedition for DeeDee’s twitter — it’s just silly and in my opinion won’t change a thing, but it won’t help Fogen get an appeal and it won’t be supported by any judge, in my opinion, for one simple reason: If it was ordered somehow and the stuff were to be delivered somehow, then every single witness in every single criminal trial, first in Florida and then everywhere else in the country, could expect to have his or her social media totally invaded, and there would be NO MORE WITNESSES in criminal trials anywhere. Think about it. Would I go to court to testify in a case if my entire life had to be laid bare to the world as a result? Only incarcerated people would be witnesses any more; only jailhouse informants (notoriously unreliable witnesses who can be manipulated by prosecutors in any kind of way, and who recant later) would ever go to court and the system would get — if such a thing is possible — even worse than it is now.

    It’s been very good talking to you everywhere we meet, thank you.

    • thanks for that Malisha, it’s so nice to know you have some of the same emotions!
      i may not agree with everything you say ( about the death penalty ) of course, but i know your beliefs come from the heart. that is the best truth.

      • type1juve says:


        Thank you so much for articulating what so many of us feel about this case. It is because we are decent people that we feel so enraged by the injustice done to Trayvon Martin and his family. When we look at how this case has been handled and continues to be portrayed by the media, the ugliness is astounding. I’m not so naive as to think that racism is not still rampant. I just had no idea that it was this bad. This case shows us that that there is still much work to be done as far as race relations in America is concerned. It is also heartening to know that that there are many of us that are not racist, as evidenced by this wonderful blog.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Type1juve, this country will never be without racism because, hatred is taught from one generation to the other. it’s a shame that we are living in 2013 and this subject is still with us. it’s really shameful that some people in this country can support the murderer of a child while slandering the child victim as well.

        No, racism in America will never be a thing of the past!

    • bettykath says:


      Thanks so much for posting this. It does help me to understand some of your posts and it probably applies to others as well.

      My own way of dealing with some of the same issues is to step back from the emotional aspects of the everything you have listed. If I didn’t, I’d probably blow up. I guess that’s where the disconnect has been. I respect that you have a different way of dealing with the injustice.

      You’re very articulate and I appreciate reading your posts. Thanks again for this one.

    • leander22 says:

      masterful, thanks a lot, I was missing you. 😉

      I had “the suspect” on my mind when I responded to lurker, I think it was, on the earlier thread. It seemed to fit the point he made. GZ simply taking for granted that everybody would believe him Trayvon had to be killed by him, mind you on God’s higher orders, in itself is racism. Just as the term “suspect” still inhabited his words on paper and in speech even hours later. Nothing had changed only “the suspect” was dead now.

      One minor point. The earlier lawyers seem to have been just as eager to defend him, but for whatever reason he didn’t want to be defended by them. Maybe he was already alerted by Taaffe that there was a consortium of rich man who would pay his legal fees, if he took, whom they considered best: Juan Baez.

      Besides, I have never in my life read better, since heartfelt rants than yours Malisha. I love you!

    • Big Willie says:

      @ Malisha…Thank you for articulating my sentiments!

    • TommysMom says:

      Thank you so much for this very,very insightful comment.
      The total disregard for respect of Trayvon’s parents when addressed by this “man” in what he called an apology,the speaking of God’s will,in the taking of this child’s life are IMHO beyond dispicable. That is also my opinion of what MOM is do trying to do to Trayvon,his parents,his friends and any witnesses who might not see things as he does. I realize MOM has nothing to work with so mud slinging is his only way to go.

  59. kimmi says:

    I have another question…

    Fogens bond conditions state:

    1b. The defendant shall not have any contact with the victim’s family, directly or indirectly, except as necessary to conduct pretrial discovery through his attorney’s;

    If Jr’s Twitter account states that is is the family’s Twitter:
    OFFICIAL Twitter feed from George Zimmerman’s older brother Robert – Acct is SHARED with Zimmerman Family.

    Would this not be indirect contact with the victim’s family especially when Jr Tweets the victim’s family? Ok, let’s say it is Jr, but imo, it also qualifies as indirect since the Twitter is the Z family’s Twitter.

    Robert Zimmerman Jr @rzimmermanjr
    .@jonathanwald @piersmorgan @m_rhee @djblp Tonight, I start w/a message for @BTraymartin9 @SybrinaFulton & @jahvaris_martin
    12:59 AM – 06 Feb 13

    Why is BDLR not doing something about this?
    IMO, Fogen is breaking another of his bond conditions, again.
    Shouldn’t Fogen tell Jr to stop as it could be a violation of his bond?

    Does the prosecution not want to seem like they are picking on the victim, uh, I mean defendant? Are they gathering more evidence?
    How much do they need? Just like Fogen ignored the same condition with his fake apology at his bond hearing, and again with his fake apology on Sean Hannity?

    Again, when Fogen was let of of jail (the second time), he ignored his bond conditions and stayed in another county, (will need to find link).

    How many times will Fogen be allowed to ignore his bond conditions before the prosecution steps up and does something? I believe this time is number FOUR…
    1. Fogen’s apology at the bond hearing
    2. Fogen’s apology on Sean Hannity
    (Ok, maybe those don’t count since they are apologies)
    3. Second bond out, Fogen stayed OUTSIDE of Seminole County
    4. Family Twitter is disrepectful to the Martin Family

    Thanks to DothProtest for reminding me about this information, that I had wanted to bring up a long time ago. Why does it seem that Fogen is allowed to get away with so much more BS than the average Joe? Why, I just don’t get it…

    • kimmi says:

      I wish LLMPapa would make a video about all the times Fogen has broken his bond conditions, and then someone sends it to BDLR. It would be SO sweet to see Fogen sit in jail until his trial.

      • Dave says:

        BDLR might prefer to have the defendant squandering his defense fund on posh hotels and Moon Pies than on investigators and expert witnesses.

      • abbyj says:

        @kimmi, Sweet doesn’t even describe it. It would be so sweet that my teeth would ache with pleasure . . . just to think of it.

    • bettykath says:


      I don’t see the apologies as counting. They weren’t direct contact with the family even though he was addressing them.

      I wasn’t aware that he was outside the county. Is there a link to this? The time to press the outside of Seminole County bit would have been at the time. Hasn’t he been in Seminole County since?

      I don’t know enough about twitter. If the defendant doesn’t use it, I would expect that he is complying with the bond conditions. I don’t think Jr. is under the court’s jurisdiction. If he posts a message to Trayvon’s family that says something like “my brother says to say hello” an investigation might be warranted.

      There are a number of things that can happen based on all the technicalities but sometimes it’s best to work based on priorities. Right now the priority is building the case, getting the witnesses all lined up and responding to defense requests for whatever. I don’t see the defendant as a serious threat to the community at this time and going after him for technicalities could backfire, garnering him more support from those on the fence or who aren’t really paying much attention. This would play great for MOM who would take full advantage of what would appear to be a pile-on.

      • kimmi says:

        The bond conditions state direct OR indirect contact with the victim’s family.
        The Twitter says it is the: Zimmerman FAMILY account.

        Fogen was outside of Seminole County the night he bonded out.
        I believe that information was in the AIS lawsuit papers, IIRC.
        I will try and look for the link later if I get a chance.

      • kimmi says:

        You have a lot of good points, I certainly wouldn’t want Fogen portrayed the victim again. I just get frosted sometimes when I see the crap that family is doing to the Martin family…
        Really, tweet them to let them know Jr is on Piers on what would/SHOULD have been Trayvon’s 18th Birthday? Sick, imo.

      • looneydoone says:

        The out of town accommodations are itemized on AIS invoiced billings. The Hilton, in Orlando is outside Seminole County. gz violated the conditions on the very day he was released on the second bond (05 July 2012)

      • bettykath says:

        Jr. is case all right. He certainly has issues. His behavior toward Trayvon’s family is certainly harassment imo. If he wants them to know he will be on tv he should just inform their attorney. Maybe they should go for a restraining order.

    • lurker says:

      Seems like Z. should be denied computer access.

      • Dave says:

        The killer needs to have every opportunity to prepare his defense. “Innocent until proven guilty”, “due process” and all that.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I would not consider either of gz’s “apologies” as true apologies.
      Both lack the conditions of an apology.

      An apology CANNOT be felt as being SINCERE by the receiver unless the person apologizing ACKNOWLEDGES that he/she has an UNDERSTANDING of the real nature of the wrong…..acknowledges (confesses) that he/she COMMITTED that wrong….and feels REMORSE for being the COMMITTER that wrong.

      Then, the person apologizing needs to say, “I am sorry that I COMMITTED that wrong.”

      Otherwise, there can be no healing between the person who has been hurt and offended and the person who committed the hurt and offense.

      • Malisha says:

        He did not apologize. At the Hannity interview he said he was sorry that the Fulton-Martins had to bury their child. At the first bond hearing, I believe he said he was sorry for their loss. He never said he was sorry HE KILLED TRAYVON MARTIN; in fact, his statement on Hannity that he wished there was some way he wouldn’t have had to kill Trayvon Martin was the opposite of an apology; he was saying he killed Trayvon Martin because he HAD TO and that, besides being false, is the opposite of an apology; it’s an excuse. He has never apologized. It is my belief that he never will. If he is convicted he will not say that he is sorry he killed Trayvon Martin; he will say some sentence meant to sound like he has remorse but it will only be designed to lessen his sentence.

        Remember when, in the 90s, there suddenly grew a nasty sentence in our culture: “I’m sorry you feel that way”? That sentence is the epitome of the non-apology. What Fogen means is: “I’m sorry that you do not agree with me that I was right to kill your kid; I’m sorry that you fussed about this and got me prosecuted; I’m sorry you did not accept MY statement that your kid was a thug who needed to be killed and who got himself killed by victimizing poor poor me; I’m sorry I have to appear to not absolutely glory in my kill; in other words, EFF YOU!”

      • bettykath says:

        I agree. I didn’t remember much about the apologies b/c they really weren’t. It was just something else that helped round out the sociopathic aspects of him.

      • Rachael says:

        He said “I wanted to say…” Wanted to but wouldn’t? Wanted to because you couldn’t because you weren’t? Why would he say he wanted to say he was sorry instead of actually saying he was. What a strange freudian slip.

      • kimmi says:

        ITA, they were not apologies, I was just giving BDLR the benefit of the doubt, that Fogen was breaking his bond conditions twice instead of four times, which imo, it was really 4x. I still would like to see him locked up for it, but certainly not to have it backfire to MOM’s benefit and then GZ becomes the victim. Ugh!

    • Judy75201 says:

      And, Nelson’s order specifically reiterated that requirement.

  60. Donna Flores says:

    I’m forty and have 4 kids, the youngest is 15, so I’m pretty much up to date with the rap artist and lyrics and Trayvon was just a normal typical teenager. Not even close to what a thug is!!!

    • Dan Q. Smith says:

      I listen to hip hop, use headphones, and wear a hoodie! Trayvon was no thug. Zimmerman is just a fascist murder.

      • Dan Q. Smith says:

        I meant racist but racism is part of fascist ideology and many fascists support Zimmerman, so not far off, really.

  61. Donna Flores says:

    CATFISH is a show on MTV about online dating, they never meet and when they do it’s not the person whose pic they are displaying, well you can take an image and search the net to see if it pops up anywhere else. I found the old man, now I’m trying to find the blurred out girl..

  62. Donna Flores says:

    I did a google search of old man with glasses and guess what is the fifth picture that pops up…HAHAHAHA

  63. Donna Flores says:

    I’m at work, can someone google that image, like on Catfish and see if we get a hit.

  64. Two sides to a story says:

    Absolutely no facts to back the assertions. I hope the Martin family goes aftersues this guy and many others. We’ve all seen in the examples given in the last thread what can happen to people who engage in slanderous posts on the internet.

  65. i’ve just been sent this by someone and i haven’t even watched the whole thing b/c i’m shaking so bad and i don’t want to watch it alone! i’m about to go fucking crazy here!!
    this was just posted today on you tube! i’m sending it to the lawyers right now!

    • kimmi says:

      He looks like he could be one of Papa Z’s friends…
      I hope they nail him for slander.
      Professor, don’t you think if Trayvon really had a juvenile record, (even sealed), that it would have been leaked by now?

      • kimmi says:

        What I meant was, wouldn’t we have heard something about a sealed record existing? Not necessarily what the record was, just that one existed, if it were true.

      • aussie says:

        He did not have a record.

        Arrested people get fingerprinted. The fingerprints are left in the system even if the person is a minor and his eventual conviction records are sealed. Or even if they are found innocent.

        On the night of the shooting the police ran Trayvon’s fingerprints, hoping to identify him that way. They FOUND NOTHING. So his prints are not on record. So he was never arrested.

        End of story.

      • lurker says:

        Pretty sure it would have been available to the police when they were investigating.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Does his voice sound like Randy Hahn?

  66. OMFG!!!! this guy

    please tell me this is slander!!!

    • Donna Flores says:

      That has got to be the stupidest video I have ever seen. Pure lies…..I can make one of the George Zimmerman if you would like.

    • aussie says:

      OKAY, so a photo of an anonymous girl proves Trayvon assaulted her?

      GZ saw Trayvon trying to break into houses WITH A CROWBAR (which was never found anywhere) but attacked GZ just with his bare fists?

      Gosh this guy makes a lot of sense.

      That’s the highlights of it, guys, don’t bother watching it.

      • cielo62 says:

        That picture of the anonymous girl came from the same library as GZ’s “black grandfather.” Seriously? I could post any picture I want and claim nearly anything with it. It proves nothing.

      • Jun says:

        exactly LOL

        if there was a crowbar, anyone would have used that to attack Fogenhats

        It must be a hoax tape

      • Looolooo says:

        What a ridiculous video. Was this video made by a Canadian guy? I detected a Canadian accent and spelling. If only Thugvon had used the crowbar on GZ, he’d be alive today. And GZ may have had some sense knocked into his cro magnon like head.

    • i’ve taken a screen shot of the youtube page but i don’t know if i can down load the video to my computer to save it for evidence.. i’ve reported it to youtube as child abuse, that should bring it down very soon. but if anyone knows how to save the video do iT.. also report it on youtube too.. i wanna call the police!! but who do i call?? i wanted advice from my lawyer, but he isn’t in office and he’s not a criminal lawyer either… should i send it to BLDR?? will someone here send it to the state? i’m not articulate enough nor can i type!

    • lady2soothe says:

      The guy’s wasted to begin with and obviously thinks showing pictures and collages is *proof*. He should contact MO’M and offer his services; He’ll fit right into their funds management and budget profile without exceeding tolerance limits as a free *Expert Witness”.

    • Dave says:

      “Trayvon Martin was trying to… break into houses with a crowbar and George Zimmerman saw him and tried to stop him and Trayvon Martin attacked him with his fists.”

    • Malisha says:

      Under law, there is no cause of action for slander against a person who is already dead. So this isn’t technically slander; it’s just lies. What an a55hole; I hope he gets away! 😈

    • gbrbsb says:

      The video is pathetic, a farce and/or hoax. The voice and wordspeak are of a much much much younger man than the gentle grandfather type photo depicts. Not worth the 5:22 minutes of my or anyone´s life. Forget it, it is not worth even a claim for slander.

      • gbrbsb……I was able to download a few sentences of it and I feel that you are absolutely correct about the voice and the wordspeak…..It is definately not the old guy that we see.

    • Although I can’t watch the video, by your comments I would surmise that this old geezer was hired to say this stuff by a nutcase fogenite. So…..why isn’t this information already known to the defense, prosecutor, and public if it were true? The subject matter (from what I have gleaned) seems to come right out of the mouths of the fogenites. I would bet that this old guy doesn’t even know who Trayvon is. Can he be charged with libel? If so, the fogenites are using this guy to spread lies without risking being charged with libel themselves.

      • ” If so, the fogenites are using this guy to spread lies without risking being charged with libel themselves”

        wow, i didn’t think of that, omg, i bet you’re right! POS’s all of them!!

      • lady2soothe says:

        @ grey winter sky,
        The older gentleman is not the speaker, it’s a guy who sounds like he’s probably in his late 20’s early 30’s. Sounds loaded and he spends a considerable amount of time cussing. Don’t bother to watch, it’s a complete waste of time.

      • lady2…..Yes, I caught that after I posted my first comment. After *gbrbsb* mentioned that very detail, I tried to download a least a few sentences..(it took forever)…and came to that same conclusion. Piles of poo….the fogenites are.

    • PiranhaMom says:


      I see “Frank Passio” has three (3) subscribers. Sure don’t know how he can cope with his fan mail.

      Did you catch the Canadian accent? Any of our Canadian students north of the 49th parallel know anything about this jerk?

      • Looolooo says:

        Aha! I’m not the only one who noticed the distinct Canadian accent, and spelling. What could be motivate a Canadian to create such amature drivel?

      • pat deadder says:

        omg I’m Canadian and feel ashamed if he is.I just want any and all of you to know you are all welcome in my home just not all at once.I love the humor here to ease the tension.

        • PiranhaMom says:


          “We got jerks, you got jerks, all God’s countries got jerks … ”

          Not to worry. We love Canadians!

          One idiot can’t change our minds, eh?

          • cielo62 says:

            PirhanaMom~ Oh, I don’t know….

          • PiranhaMom says:

            Mon Dieu! My maple tree just asked for a bullet-proof vest (I said, “Fake it you’re an avocado. Maple guacamole is the new mean cuisine.”) Actually,it’s a Japanese Maple, but paranoid after your video.

            Beaureagard wants his name translated. Can I go outside calling “Here, GoodLooking, Here GoodLooking!” and get away with it? Actually, the hunky driver from Waste Management – the local garbage pickup – might hop right out … Does Guacamaple go with Budweiser?

          • cielo62 says:

            PiranhaMom~ you have GOT to be one of the funniest people on the planet! No, Beauregard doesn’t have to go into hiding and your maple tree is safe! Although whatever you do with the WM guy is up to you!  LOL! (“Blame Canada” is just a seriously funny song from South Park. I had to share it!)

          • PiranhaMom says:


            You shared it and I loved it. Thanks!

      • Looolooo says:

        @ pat deadder thanx. You never know, hopefully at least some of us can meet up somewhere, someday. And I’m married to a fantastic Canadian hunk.

      • Looolooo says:

        @PiranhaMom That’s one excuse. I kinda think that it’s a joke video, because it’s sooo chock full of provable fallacies and is completely laughable. Everyone wants their 15 minutes I guess.

  67. groans says:

    Bettykath definitely got me thinking about the social media “discovery” issue, which I’ll have to write about later because I’m short of time right now.

    I typically appreciate her posts, because they tend to be rational and pointed.

    However, on occasion they convey (IMO) a hint or more of superiority and distain towards others. That, I find rude, offensive, and unconstructive. I believe that others here also take offense at such an attitude and, not surprisingly, respond defensively. So the attitude sets up an environment that is not conducive to the intelligent discourse that I believe she craves.

    I would be surprised if bettykath sets out intentionally to insult or dismiss the genuine views/feelings of others on this blog. But I would also humbly suggest that she give some honest thought to how she sometimes comes across that way. She’s more likely to gain the respect of others if she respects others.

    Nobody is perfect, after all, but everybody here has their own strengths to contribute and does so in their own ways. And, just as reason is a strength in the realm of promoting justice, so is passion.

    (Sorry about the 3rd person reference, bettykath – it seemed to be the only way for a message directed to everybody!)

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I think an attitude that comes across in writing isn’t always intended and wouldn’t happen if all of us could talk face to face.

      • groans says:

        That’s so true. I know I’ve had that problem with emails I’ve written – and I probably do with my own posts here, too!!

    • bettykath says:

      What I find offensive are the postings that attack the defendant and his attorneys in ways that mirror the posts on those websites that attack Trayvon. Name calling doesn’t sit well with me nor do baseless charges nor does piling on and they happen here. I don’t find the posters themselves to be offensive since nearly everyone has something useful to offer, just some of their posts. I can be a real wet blanket sometimes.

      • i find killing an innocent 17 year old much more offensive than calling a killer and asshole!! i find people who are offended by my calling a killer an asshole almost as offensive as i find a lawyer saying that the dead kid “got himself killed”

      • leander22 says:

        Shannon, I had the same problems as Betty. I Simply couldn’t articulate them as well as she does. After a while you get sucked into the group dynamics and do not pay attention on matters too much anymore. There were others that tried to utter criticism. Whonoze?

        The problem is, you have to realize that O’Mara can pick some of the group dynamics happening here, first cite some statements, then wave around a whole pile of sheets of paper, for the jury to focus their attention. Cite polls according to which 72% considered GZ guilty. Look at this, they had a limited amount of the information that we thankfully finally have too, but have already decided what should happen. I would call that prejudgment, a lynch mob.

        Are you realizing how easy it would be to manipulate the jury into a desire of not wanting to appear prejudiced? After all they weren’t there. And hadn’t O’Mara himself said it was a very, very tragic story? And wouldn’t they appreciate the benefit of doubt too, if it were them?

      • bettykath….I agreed with you earlier regarding the Chris Dorner case but, I cannot agree with you on this. After everything that fogen, his family and supporter have done to drag the Martin family name through the mud…and the attitude of fogen himself, it makes me extremely angry. Although I do see your point, I believe that I, and many others find that this blog is a place, not only to share information, but to also vent our frustrations…and yes, sometimes, name calling does happen. I am sorry if this offends you. I don’t think that anyone here really wants to offend anyone….well except…..fogen..and his clan. 🙂

      • Big Willie says:

        Everyone has their own life experiences as to what they find offensive. I have absolutely NO problem with anyone making “so-called” offensive comments about Fogen, his team, his momma, daddy or brother. What I find offensive and most egregious is Fogen, and what I call his “Schadenfreude profit fund”. How fucking dare Fogen solicit and recieve funds from the death of an innoncent child! The only thing Fogen hasn’t done is litterally shit on Trayvon’s grave. I hope the fat ugly low-life bastard rots in hell!!! Fogen should’ve died in his mother’s womb. If anyone is offended OH WELL…

      • Dan Q. Smith says:

        But that is just not true. That’s a false equivalency. You do this routinely. Your “blood lust” comment speaking about people who post here is another example. You might think or say you are playing devil’s advocate, but I don’t believe it. I’m sorry. I don’t believe it.

      • Malisha says:

        Big Willie, your coined phrase “Schadenfreude profit fund” is the best thing I have heard all week, THANK YOU! I’m trying to rest now because all the hysterical laughter raised my blood pressure and I don’t want to stroke out and miss going to dinner at the Chinese buffet!

  68. FactsFirst says:

    I support bettykath and as a matter of fact I look forward to her DEFENSE perspective… I LOVE LAW period all aspects of it and I just hope that we can respect each others opinions because this is one of the only sites where the trolls aren’t running rampant… I said it before and I’ll say it again, “I WANT TO KNOW WHAT KIND OF TRICKS THE DEFENSE HAVE UP THEIR SLEEVES”… “Knowing is half the battle” (GI Joe) LOL!

    Hello Everyone!!! ((((E-HUGS))))

  69. cielo62 says:

    Actually I felt like battykath was bringing in the OPPOSITE side of the coin, so that, as she said, we don’t get blind-sided by something that we just hadn’t considered. No, I don’t think there is ANYTHING useful for MOM to find in FB or Twitter, BUT MOM has precious little to use for defense material, I guess he’s grasping at straws. As a Defense lawyer, he HAS to try whatever he can, even if it’s a shadow of a promise. I mean, talk abuot being blind-sided; in the Casey Anthony trial, WHERE did the allegations for sexual abuse come from? Accidental DROWNING? The prosecutors were caught flat-footed by those allegations. I don’t want to see GZ go anywhere but prison! No, she’s never been a troll. Personally, I prefer to have my assumptions questioned; once I see where the flaws are, I can be prepared to defend my position better. Thanks bettykath! You do good work.

    • bettykath says:

      Thanks, cielo. You understand where I’m coming from. I intend no disrespect to anyone, it’s just hard getting through sometimes. Most of the posters here do a good job. Challenging what I post is good. As you say, challenges help us better defend our positions even if they don’t change our minds : )

    • cielo62…..Exactly. That’s what I also thought when I read the comment. The prosecution has to be ready for anything that the defense will throw at them. This is like a strategy game. You have to anticipate your opponets future moves to be able to head them off before they can use those moves. MOM is truly grasping at straws. He wants so badly to either discredit DeeDee or at least cast doubt on her testimony. He has nothing else. As the evidence is increasingly revealing the truth of this case, the defense is becoming increasingly desperate to destroy the character of the speakers of the truth.

      • Romaine says:

        From my view of the hearing of feb 05, 2013, not just the character of w8 and Crump, also Judge Nelson…Omara challenged Judge Nelson with the number of times she has refused his requests, reminded her of how he did not agree with the trial date to be heard in June…it took all of Judge Nelson’s professional etiquette to ignore his tantrum. Omara tried to bait her to say something to have her removed in my opinion. I don’t know much about contempt of court, yet i believe West and Omara are walking a very thin line towards a time out and a fine.

  70. TommysMom says:

    This is an excellent article and I’m in complete agreement.

    I’ve been banned from Doth Protest To Much because I stated that no one knows what a jury will do,and mentioned the Anthony case. I realize they are two very different cases,but most of the general public believed her to be guilty and she walked because they said the state didn’t prove it’s case. Which to me was a cop-out. They didn’t ask to see any evidence or hear any of the testimony,they just wanted to go home.I don’t want this one to be what I consider a case of no justice for another child. I believe he is guilty of killing Trayvon in cold blood,after stalking him.

    • kimmi says:

      I would be absolutely horrified if that were to happen again.
      I pray the truth will come out and justice will be served.

      • TommysMom says:

        You sure wouldn’t be alone,I’m always amazed at some of the 48hrs. shows where the defendant walks. When KC’s verdict came in I was i shock,I simply couldn’t believe it. When you hear Dr “G” say “there is no reason for duct tape to be anywhere near a baby’s face” and then hear about the smell in that car,and she walks,unreal,she drowned? NOT!

      • abbyj says:

        @TommysMom, Good for you to include the quote about the duct tape. There would never be a reason for duct tape to be near a child’s face or head. There would be even less reason for a heart sticker to be on the duct tape near the mouth. Unreal is right. The verdict is still incomprehensible to me. Maybe Casey–condemned by the public, unemployable, and on the lam– is living her “Bella Vita” now.

    • roderick2012 says:

      TommysMom, the difference between the cases is that there is no dispute about how shot and killed Trayvon that night so I would say that the least the State will obtain is a conviction on manslaughter.

      I believe that the jurors had a big problem believing in their hearts that a mother could actually kill her own child even a liar like Casey.

      Then there was that weird thing where the mistress of Casey’s father stated that Caylee had died in the pool or something and the family attempted to cover it up.

      Then Casey threw in her being molested for good measure. That case was beyond a three-ringed circle but it’s the judge’s fault for allowing things to get out of hand.

      • TommysMom says:

        ITA and you’re right about Z having killed Trayvon,but he’s claiming self-defense and I would really like to see him convicted of manslaughter.
        I’d like the professor to advise us whether the jury would be instructed about lesser charges they could consider or is this an all or nothing deal.

        • cielo62 says:

          TommysMom~ Murder 2 would be SO MUCH more satisfying, ESPECIALLY since he truly deserves Murder in the 1st. Manslaughter, while giving him a minimum of 25 years, takes away the “to life” portion. And GZ IS dangerous enough to warrant keeping him away from society for the rest of his miserable days.

      • roderick2012 says:

        TommysMom says: ITA and you’re right about Z having killed Trayvon,but he’s claiming self-defense

        I don’t care if he is claiming self-defense we know that George shot and killed Trayvon so that’s eliminates the State having to prove the ‘who’ in this case and that’s why this is at least manslaughter, but without DeeDee’s testimony it will get it to Murder 2 and I am not sure if she will be able to accomplish that.

        TommysMom says: and I would really like to see him convicted of manslaughter.

        I would have agreed with you on that except that I listened to the jailhouse tape where George shrugged off killing Trayvon as if he had killed a fly, the demonization of Trayvon, his family and any of the witnesses who have given statements which contradict George’s story and blatant attempt by the Zimmerman family to cultivate the racism in America to assist in ‘defending’ George and the blood money they have made through slandering Trayvon.

      • leander22 says:

        TommysMom says: ITA and you’re right about Z having killed Trayvon,but he’s claiming self-defense

        roderick, one of the reasons why many lawyers ultimately support GZ has to do with the fact that one side cannot witness anymore. And there are no witnesses how it all started. I am not sure about the kid one hears about occasionally. He must be aware of that. It could only have drawn people’s attention once the scream could be heard. Before it may have been only voices. Notice the teacher. You don’t immediately respond to these type of signals, otherwise you would be pretty busy all day long.

        This means this is a scenario under which George Zimmerman has good chances to walk free from a purely juridical point of view. The ultimate battle will be between the experts on both sides interpreting the evidence, if I leave DeeDee out for a while. Or alternatively the alternative scenario that GPS data will ultimately support her story. In the end the jury decides.

        When I was a student working in a restaurant here in Cologne a regular from our secret services, at least he claimed, told me about a series of ideal murder scenarios that allowed you to walk. This is a basic scenario, that’s why comparable things happen so often.. And you have to realize that as much as it may hurt you.

        • Even though the defendant is the only witness to the entire event, neither the judge in an immunity hearing nor the jury in a trial is required to accept the defendant’s narrative as the truth.

          Little chance exists that he will win the immunity hearing or the trial, because his narrative is internally inconsistent and in conflict with the physical and forensic evidence.

          The only witness who supported what he said (W6), has retracted the relevant part of his statement.

          If one were to ignore everything he said, there is more than enough evidence to support a guilty verdict, and that is why he will most likely lose the case.

          If his narrative were internally consistent and consistent with the physical and forensic evidence, he would win his immunity hearing or the trial.

          He has only himself to blame.

        • roderick2012 says:

          leader22, you left out the testimony from George (re-enactment video, NEN call, police interviews and Sean Hannity interview).

          As you stated George is only surviving witness who knows everything that occurred that night and he’s told many conflicting tales and I doubt that a jury will think that his contradictions are innocent since he volunteered for to talk to the police without representation.

          Of course DeeDee’s testimony is important and the obvious attempts by the defense to intimidate her by prying into her social media really bothers me because it sends a signal to all of the other witnesses in this case and future cases that anything that you have ever done or stated can and will be used against you to discredit what you may have seen during a crime.

          Would you like to be held to that standard?

      • leander22 says:

        Professor, roderick, what I am struggling with is that so many lawyers and former police investigators not only early in the case, but as late as September or up to now, write this is a pure Stand your Ground or Self Defense Case. I am not in any way trying to challenge what you say, I would like to understand why this happens. OK, maybe it is advertisement showing they are professional. Look I could get you out in such a case. But they have exactly the same information as we have.

        E.g. I am wondering why the GZ supporters claim that the voice reenactment is perfectly fine. That’s usually followed by arguments like: I have never seen someone that is guilty doing that at all. Or similar statements.

        O’Mara already showed the way he will deal with contradictions, it simply shows that the story is not rehearsed.

        As an aside, I initially found your challenge of witness #6 slightly over the top. Maybe since I first like to see if there could not be more simple/human explanations. But I am in the process of changing my mind. Something does not quite fit with his timing of the shot on his 911 call versus his later statements. If you mentioned that already and I now out myself as somebody that did not pay the necessary attention, so be it, I am spending way more time on the issue than I can really afford.

        • roderick2012 says:

          “Something does not quite fit with his timing of the shot on his 911 call versus his later statements.”

          Besides the fact that if Trayvon had been on top of George he would have left at the first hint that Witness #6 were opening the door instead of continuing to punch and do whatever the most recent iteration of Witness #6’s story has Trayvon doing.

          My guess is that Witness #6 helped George restrain Trayvon and that’s why Witness #11 stated she heard ‘four drunk men’ arguing.

    • No, you were banned from doth protest too much because you took upon yourself to be rude to an admin (me) when I tried to gently re-direct your incessant insistence that the jury might let him walk. Your comments as a new poster were no way as detailed or analytical as bettykath’s and yes, you did come off as a troll by posting the same thing and nothing else three times.

      Now, you can stop running to every other blog…marinade dave’s, here, etc. etc. etc. and defaming our blog and my decision to ban you. The fact is, we know for certain that members of Trayvon’s family read our blog. Your comments about the jury had NOTHING to do with the content of the post. I tried to be nice with you but you stated…you were just going to ignore me. Well, people who appear to be trolls and state that they will just ignore an admin of a blog, we get banned.

      Now go run and tell other bloggers that! Your purpose of running to other bloggers “telling on us” makes you look like a trouble maker trying to sow dissension!

      I apologize Professor but I had to weigh in when my blog is AGAIN defamed by this person. Yeah she left out the part about how rude SHE was.

      • For the record…

        This is the comment that got you banned…

        Tommys Mom permalink
        December 22, 2012 5:40 pm

        She killed a defenseless child and continued to lie to everyone about everything! Not so different. Been seen? What by who? Troll? I’m not ugly either physically or in spirit,I own a home and it’s not under a bridge. 😉

        I think for safety sake I will ignore your comments to me.

        Admin Note: Buh Bye! <<>>


        You can now run to other blogs and tell the truth. I said I was going to ignore and admin moderating comments and go banned.

      • leander22 says:

        I’m not ugly either physically or in spirit,I own a home and it’s not under a bridge.

        Highly unimportant in the context.

        I am somehow tired of troll debates, admittedly. But that is “the good righteous Americans” with a solid economical basis, versus the “social security mom’s” and related arguments. Based on that, I wouldn’t have been very fond of that argument too. Although I don’t like inquisitorial exercises either, which are somehow connected to the troll debate, yes there may be more below if it is the first on somebody’s mind a rash response. Economical arguments are often used in political debates to denigrate the other side.

        Excuse me, MOM, but the use of this type of imagery would have put me off too.

        Now I look at the context. 😉

      • leander22 says:

        good article on Robert Zimmerman jun, but give thesd sparse evidence your reaction is way over the top. Interesting you mention conspiracy sites to which Tommy’s Mom should go, but considering the context you may be slightly paranoid yourself,

        I’ll backtrack, although I don’t like the imagery she uses. For all I can tell, you are basically censoring “an echo” of a subject Frederick Leatherman has dealt with here extensively.

        If I may play jury; not guilty.

      • TommysMom says:

        I didn’t mean any disrespect then or now,if you had explained why I was banned I might have been able to make a different comment. Actually I thought you were rude to me,as I didn’t know that was your blog. I never maligned you at Dave’s site,I simply mentioned I had been banned and didn’t understand why. If you were to read any of my comments on his site or any site you would see I’m not a troll.
        I guess my main concern is,another child killed,it seems to go on and on. There are sometimes no arrests and sometimes the defendant just walks. The thought that this man stalked(JMO) Trayvon and without any mercy shot him in the heart makes me ill. The fact that he has never ever acknowledged that he might have done something short of killing Trayvon. I don’t believe in vengeance,but I want this guy to go to jail for what he did. I remember very well how shocked I was at what Baez said in his opening statement,is it possible MOM would pull something like this and Z walks? MOM has very little to work with in this case,neither the defendant,his family,especially his brother are not helping. MOM must come up with something. I don’t think he can,but then I thought Baez was out of his league,and look what happeded.
        In any event I’m truly sorry you were offended.

      • cielo62 says:

        Thats so not racist~  LOL! This reminds me of my students who get shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, when they find out teachers actually talk to each other and can be friends! You say something bad about one teacher and another teacher catches you, yes, it WILL get back to your homeroom teacher!  LOL!

  71. bettykath says:

    Professor, thank you for understanding where I’m coming from. I agree that MOM isn’t ready for prime time. I think much of his failure is due to lack of experience and an inability to “wing it” successfully. He really doesn’t know what’s important so he seems to be following his client rather than leading him. He may be trying to self-promote but I don’t think that’s working out for him either.

    • Eric says:

      Bettykath says she believes MOM’s failure is due to his lack of experience. In other words this case should be an easy win. These kind of statements lead me to believe you are a troll trying to pass yourself off as the devils advocate so that we will learn how to think. Nice try,but no go. I love how in your responses, you sneak in a comment about Martin’s violent history. I.e. Trayvon was the agressive party in this situation. And if only MOM wasn’t so green, he would be able to prove it. Or, I like the way you, after making the statement ,that you claim to believe Zimmerman is guilty, BUT you believe Martin held Zimmerman down. Once again turning Martin into the agressive party in this case. This is not happening because you want to give the po’, ignant folk a lesson in critical thinking by playing devils advocate. No, I have feeling that you have a different agenda that you have superficially wrapped up in sentiments that, at first glance, would not look outta place on this website. But, just under the surface is cth propaganda.

      • MelRoy says:

        O’Mara is not green. He’s got 30 years experience handling murder cases.

        Next, there isn’t any physical evidence that Trayvon held Zimmerman down. Let’s look at this again. How did a 158 pound boy hold down a 200 pound man while simultaneously beating him up and covering his mouth?

        Answer: He didn’t. Zimmerman is throwing out multiple scenarios where he might have had a reasonable fear of serious injury to see which one might stick.

        Strangely enough, being held down technically undermines a stand your ground defense. Because if you’re standing your ground, you must be in a position to get away.

      • gbrbsb says:

        That GZ is guilty and that he is “found” guilty by due legal process are two completely different matters as I believe the Professor would be able to explain much much better than I ever could. The courts are not always “fair”. Proof and reality are very often at odds but that is the adversarial legal process, for better or for worse, and thanks to that process with its failings and advantages over other systems we can all sleep at night.

        I too support BettyKath !!!

      • bettykath says:


        You’re using my comments in ways that take them out of context.

        I didn’t say that I believed that Trayvon has a violent history. I said that MOM is looking to see if Trayvon has a violent history. Entirely different context. MOM is doing what he should be doing based on what his client has said about Trayvon jumping him in the dark.

        “Martin held Zimmerman down” I hold that belief b/c that’s what most of the witnesses have said. This doesn’t necessarily make Trayvon the aggressor. The “hold down” imo was a defensive move which, as I said, was to keep the defendant from shooting him.

        As to MOM’s lack of experience, I think that is quite evident. Are you suggesting that I think an experienced criminal lawyer would make this an easy win and the defendant would walk? Well, I don’t think any criminal lawyer taking this case would see it as an easy win. The prosecution’s case is extremely strong and it’s quite evident that the client is a liar who wouldn’t shut up. How any attorney would be able to substantiate the defendant’s story (pick one) is beyond me. But my point is, the defense attorney has an obligation to do so the best he/she can.

        The question I have trouble with is, once the attorney has taken a good look at all the evidence and sees that there is no way things happened as his client says they did (pick a story), that there is no legitimate self-defense, what’s the attorney to do? I think MOM is going with the idea that once the defendant was on the ground with Trayvon on top of him, he had no opportunity to back out of the confrontation. I don’t see much else that MOM will find. I expect the prosecution to rebut this scenario with the defendant’s statement to Serino that the defendant broke Trayvon’s hold, both of his hands, with a wrist lock, such that the defendant was able to retrieve his gun, aim and fire. No. This isn’t an easy case for any defense attorney regardless of experience or expertise.

      • bettykath says:

        Melroy, thanks for the info re: MOM’s experience. His 30 years experience includes criminal law, I’m not sure about murder cases. Could be theft, burglaries, assault, etc. But certainly more criminal experience than I thought. The web site I went to also indicates there have been no complaints and he has a high rating in professional conduct.

      • leander22 says:

        Eric, you read something into Betty’s responses that is not there.

      • Eric says:

        Bettykath, of course I’m taking your comments out of context. The only way I could use your comments in context , I would have to quote everything you have have posted. I have neither the time, or inclination to do so. You never said IF Martin had a violent history, you wrote “The defense counsel wanted to know from a reputable source about Trayvon’s TENDENCY to be violent.” You, in a backhanded way turned a person who tried to run from his assailant into the aggressor. Most of the witnesses said it was Martin holding Zimmerman down? Who would those witnesses be,the ones who have backtracked on their stories two, or three times? If holding someone down Isn’t an act of aggressive behavior, therefore justifying self defense, then what the hell is it? Once again, you and your cth arguments. Look lady, I think you are a troll, and that is fine, whatever. I’m just not buying what you are selling. I’m finished with it.

      • cielo62 says:

        Eric~ I’ll offer you the same 5th grade reading comprehension texts I offered sdunn5. NOTHING that bettykath says indicates that she BELIEVES that either Martin has a violent past NOR that holding GZ down was not defensive. Holding someone down is NOT, in and of itself, an agressive act. When kids get emotionally and physically out of control, there are ways to “take them down” to avoid them getting hurt or hurting others. It does NOT make the intervention a hostile or aggressive one. Maybe you fear the fact that MAYBE the defense will come up with something we haven’t poopoo-ed to death yet. I read someone mention that MAYBE the shooting itself was an “accident.” New strategy? Don’t know until we investigate it. No need to be rude to a long time poster here. You, however, I don’t recognize.

      • @ Eric, i consider a troll as someone who just comes to a blog to post stupid shit to provoke people for whatever reason. and i hate that name so i never call anyone that who participates and makes relative comments. even if i disagree.

        @BettyKath i find it odd that you never emote compassion *AT ALL* for the Real Victim; TRAYVON MARTIN. instead, and again today you express sympathy for gz and omar!!! oh and then have the nerve to criticize others for expressing their emotions about the reason we are all here, which is our sadness and anger that Trayvon is dead! and that’s kinda off putting.

        you also complained about LLMpapa’s and Trents videos. whether or not you appreciate the music or context or language or whatever.

        But i’ve never called you or anyone else here a troll. but IMO best case scenario, you have zero interest in justice for Trayvon based on the nature of his death. to me it feels like your focus is on the legal process.

      • Eric says:

        Cielo62, I did not say anything rude to this betty person. I simply voiced my opnion. I suggest that you brush up on your reading comprehensive skills. She wrote wrote what she wrote. That’s why I put her comment in quotes EINSTEIN. And if her quote did not imply Martin was violent, then what did it mean? This may come as a surprise to you, but you can’t carry out an intervention, whether physical, or otherwise w/o being aggressive. Maybe you should grab a dictionary and theasarus and join me in those reading comp. lessons you’re offering. So, now the shooting was an accident? Wow! I don’t fear what the defense will come up with much. With the Bettykathy’s,the cth crowd, and people like you, this case should be relatively easy for the defense to get a win. I have been here since early last summer. I very rarely say anything. I very rarely challenge anyone here. In the last couple days

        • Eric,

          As Sean the dispatcher said,

          “We don’t need you to do that.”

        • cielo62 says:

          Eric, Eric, Eric. you STILL miss the point. She is arguing from the DEFENSE POV! She doesn’t HAVE to believe that Trayvon is violent, but the defense HAS TO. It’s the only defense they have! And calling someone a troll IS an insult and being rude. Frankly, you have no real evidence of it, just your “opinion.” Like everything we do here, you need evidence that bettykath, or anyone else for that matter, is causing a negative effect on this blog. That is what a troll does. OTOH, expressing a differing opinion, from a different perspective, based on stated evidence, is what investigators do.   And, my dear NON Einstein, “aggression” is an attitude to do harm and to intimidate. You CAN do an intervention intentionally and assertively. The limit of the force is to stop a specific action. Aggression has no limits and is based on anger (like yours, maybe).   And I never said they (the defense) are going to try for an accidental shooting ploy. Someone brought that idea back from perusing the CTH that was floating around the Treepers. Will they fly with it? Who knows? Even so, we should not be caught by surprise of they do. After all, a jury even marginally racist might buy an accidental shooting over a deliberate murder.   You say you’ve been here since last summer and rarely say anything. If this is an example of your contributions, just stick with reading. It’s better to be silent and thought a fool than write inane and insulting comments and remove all doubt.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I believe Trayvon may have held Zimmerman down at some point. After all, he did have grass and moisture on his back. Are you going to call me a troll, Eric?

      • bettykath says:


        I read this earlier and thought it deserved a response.

        @BettyKath i find it odd that you never emote compassion *AT ALL* for the Real Victim; TRAYVON MARTIN. instead, and again today you express sympathy for gz and omar!!! oh and then have the nerve to criticize others for expressing their emotions about the reason we are all here, which is our sadness and anger that Trayvon is dead! and that’s kinda off putting.
        You’re quite right in that I don’t emote, but you’re wrong if you think I’m expressing sympathy for the defendant or the defense team. I think you still don’t get it that it’s important that the defendant get a fair trial and that includes as good a defense as possible. A defense attorney just doesn’t see the evidence the same as a prosecutor. MOM doesn’t have a lot to work with given his client and his client’s previous stories and his lack of expertise and experts. This isn’t sympathy for the defense, it’s dispassionate observation of the situation.
        you also complained about LLMpapa’s and Trents videos. whether or not you appreciate the music or context or language or whatever.
        I do appreciate the videos and have said so, but sometimes find it hard to hear the important stuff over the music or overlaid comments. This is intended as feedback to those who provide the videos. They are perfectly free to ignore my comments.
        But i’ve never called you or anyone else here a troll. but IMO best case scenario, you have zero interest in justice for Trayvon based on the nature of his death. to me it feels like your focus is on the legal process.
        I do have interest in justice and that’s one of the reasons I’m here. I still think of Johnny Gammage and Amadou Diallo, both killed by police officers. Gammage was asphyxiated. 49 shots were fired at Diallo. Neither man was armed. There are others. 29 Black people were shot by police and security people in the past year. Most were not involved in illegal activity. http://hiphopandpolitics.wordpress.com/2012/04/06/29-black-people-have-been-killed-by-policesecurity-since-jan-2012-16-since-trayvon/

        You’re right in that my focus is on the legal process. I’m interested in justice for more than Trayvon. And I don’t have to wear my emotions on my sleeve to do so.

      • bettykath says:

        I ended rather abruptly. I don’t have a problem with others who are emotional. Because of Malisha’s explanation of why she posts as she does, I’ll have increased tolerance for whatever the rest of you post. Call names, attack others. whatever. I’ll continue to skip it when it bothers me and won’t bother to comment. We all seem to have different ways of dealing with this.

      • Dan Q. Smith says:

        @ Eric

        I’m sorry but this is my opinion too.

      • leander22 says:

        very good comment, Betty. On a different political topic I am following over the last years, I registered the same type of ultimately inquisitorial attitudes. The slightest deviation from the majority point of view is heavily attacked. And often very much is read into comments or simply suspected based on accepted theories.

        I may well be so very fascinated by Malisha’s writing because she has both a huge amount of humor and an astonishing ability to express her emotion on matters. I have enormous problems to express my emotions to even register them often.

        This may have to do that I started to suppress them at Trayvon’s age deliberately. My headmaster and English teacher used to provoke me in the most evil way. Everything froze in me at that point, In this context I developed the ability to not show the least trace of hurt. It made him more and more mad, of course. Since if you insult people you want to see their reaction. But I realized it would only get me a school suspension again. this guy became headmaster when it was found out that his predecessor had a deep Nazi past. My headmaster immediately hired him again as senior teacher. A bureaucratic term connected with better pay, I cannot translate.

        The guy taught English without ever uttering an word of English besides: ”Oh yes, very well”, but dropped a couple of really sick and prejudiced jokes and comments about the Brits, stupid stories like people in England always send you in the wrong direction if you ask for information how you get somewhere. As you may imagine this can happen to you in Germany too.

      • bettykath says:


        I can’t imagine trying to learn in such an environment. Good teachers open up the students. This jerk shut you down. Was he this obnoxious to other students? It sounds like he was a masochist or so extremely insecure that he had to bully his students.

      • bettykath says:

        opps, wrong word. sadist, not masochist. Maybe he and the headmaster/senior teacher had a thing going.

      • leander22 says:

        Betty, I was his core scapegoat, he went into a rant in the graduation ceremony. I was present but was informed.

        I had pretty good informers among the teachers before that, I always knew what meetings for my special case he had happened and of course the outcome. One was my math teacher the other the arts teacher.

        He was an authoritarian character, he controlled the teachers very hard. Some them tried to grow a beard in school holidays and at the latest two days later they disappeared again. He forbid girls to wear trousers in summer, but I seem to have been the only girl that ever objected to that rule.

      • leander22 says:

        I was <not present but was informed about it.

        A ten minutes rant how glad he was he was finally got rid of me. He had tried to get me out very, very hard for the last two years.

    • Eric says:

      I hit the send button by mistake. I was trying to say that in the last couple of days, and even hours I have come to the conclusion that I want Zimmerman to walk free. We have a problem in this country that cannot be solved in a civil way. Maybe Martins slaughter will be the wake up call we need. A jury won’t solve it. So, I will wish Bettykathy the same thing I wished Marinade Dave, when he was giddy about the graciousness and kindness of Frank Taafe, SUCCESS ! And to cielo 62 , fuck you, you silly piece of white trash. Don’t worry about banning me professor, I won’t be back.

      • cielo62 says:

        Another troll bites the dust.

      • roderick2012 says:

        Eric, thanks very much for having the balls to go against the grain on the BK issue.

        I am an only child and have always been a loner so I could care less who agrees with me or who doesn’t besides this is cyberspace and if I passed anyone from this blog (except the professor) on the street I would not know them from any other stranger.

        I took it on the chin the other day with my comment on the thread about Chris Kyle’s death and what not but l am still standing and if some people are still angry about it that’s their problem.

        Furthermore thanks for not being politically correct or ‘tolerant’ and calling BK out for the OutHouse sympathizer that she is.

        I believe that everyone on here is nice, caring,passionate and sincere beyond measure but someone like BK takes advantage of that and guilts people into not opposing her and allow her to spew her nonsense excuses for the defense using character assasination and witness intimidation as a way to get their client a not guilty verdict.

        As the professsor has stated that he considers this blog a family but unfortunately every family in human history has been dysfunctional and the best way to correct that is to get rid of that dysfunctional family member.

        Maybe I am that dysfunctional member and if that’s true then so be it and since I usually lurk and rarely post anything substantial and don’t have time to dig deeply into the evidence so I doubt that I actually contribute much when I come out of lurker mood.

        Again, Eric, thanks for going against the grain and for standing up to what I believe has been gross manipulation by BK to change the focus of this blog and cause infighting.

        • cielo62 says:

          roderick~ I can say I am grateful Eric is gone. If ANYONE was a troll, it was he. Going against the grain is one thing. Being rude and abusive about it is another. What you call “pc” is called “being civil.” He couldn’t manage even that.

            This sentence alone shows you have no clue what BK was saying: “but someone like BK takes advantage of that and guilts people into not opposing her and allow her to spew her nonsense excuses for the defense using character assasination and witness intimidation as a way to get their client a not guilty verdict.”   When has she EVER stated that she is working to get GZ out of his mess? Preparing a strategy is NOT the same thing as working for the defense. Like Eric, you just don’t get it.

          • roderick2012 says:

            “When has she EVER stated that she is working to get GZ out of his mess? Preparing a strategy is NOT the same thing as working for the defense.”

            OMG!! She’s repeating the same crap that the Outhousers have been talking about since the beginning of this case-smear Trayvon and anyone on the State’s witness list.

            I know I spend too much of my life on this case but I have surfed the web and I have seen some ugly, ugly things about not only Trayvon but pro-State witnesses like Mary Cutcher and her roommate. One sick dude on facebook had Mary and Selma in suggestive positions implying an alternative lifestyle.

            These people don’t want to discuss the evidence they are violent fearful racists who don’t have a life.

            Maybe this is the only blog you frequent but I have read the same things BK posted by George supporters all over the net and it never fails to go the same way–trashing the victim because all of the evidence is against the defendant.

      • Malisha says:

        I must say I didn’t understand this. “We have a problem…that cannot be solved in a civil way”? OK, granted. So…then it should be OK to kill unarmed Black kids? Does not compute! ❓

        • cielo62 says:

          Malisha~ No, I think Eric meant that we need to have another civil war, a RACIAL war this time. And that is no real solution at all, in a country where we honor the law. If the system is corrupted, fix the corruption. If you have a computer virus, you don’t just destroy the computer.

      • leander22 says:

        and calling BK out for the OutHouse sympathizer that she is.

        I guess you think the same about me, roderick?

        You are very, very wrong. Look at her position on the bloody face photo here. She writes the two first comments here.

        I can tell you you can even do a complete search for all of her comments on that blog by using the search he site of Jonathan Turley only by using this command: “site:jonathanturley.org” (no quotes needed for this) and then add “George Zimmerman” “BettyKath”, to get filtered content. You are very, very, very wrong. But strictly it is all there for you to see. It’s transparent.

        As cielo already said, if the site dumbs into pure expressions of hatred against George, than it only helps one side and that is not prosecution. It’s so easy to see that this would support deep prejudice among Trayvon supporters.

        Read Machiavelli divide and conquer. Manage to make supporters of justice for Trayvon fight one another.

        In conspiracy circles they used to ask the question: What’s your agenda? I am not a conspiracy theorist, by the way. But I think you are way off base.

        • cielo62 says:

          leander22~ Both  Machiavelli and Sun Tzu teach one to be careful in crafting actions and strategy. Knowing your enemy is always good for proactive thinking. Shit, I use that at work. When my annual 45 minute review comes each year when the princiapl watches a complete 45 minute lesson I do, I think of the latest things she has been promoting (technology, certain authors or certain teaching techniques) and I make SURE to include them that day, even though I might not include them in every lesson otherwise. Think like a Girl Scout and BE PREPARED.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        Wouldn’t the other side have to send someone here to start a fuss? This question is in response to your comment:

        Read Machiavelli divide and conquer.

        Manage to make supporters of justice for Trayvon fight one another.

      • Judy75201 says:

        I am very sorry to read this.

      • bettykath says:

        leander, I went to JT link and read the comments. One poster made a nasty comment. Malisha’s response to him (near the end of thread) is a real winner!

      • leander22 says:

        thanks for the hint, Betty, yes that is Malisha to a T.

        I see Sling Trebuchet is still watching Daniel McManor. I check occasionally but find him hard to bear. Sling was of great help in creating a stir in his comment section tea-pot. Shano is still around too, he would fit over here too. Haven’t checked if Tony C still shows up if someone comments on the topic. That’s all the hard-core Trayvon supporters I remember, with the exception of the rest of the liberal regulars which did not pay too much attention but occasionally showed up and supported us.

  72. Jun says:

    I do not feel she is a troll

    I just feel the assertions she made regarding Deedee as the basis for Omara’s search has no reasonable suspicion or even probable cause or a good belief it exists

    I just feel it is a big fishing expedition

    I understand that there is a very minimal possibility of her assertion existing

    however, considering the witness intimidation from Fogenhats’ gang, I feel she has the right to refuse to divulge whether she has the handles or not, and to even give them to Omara

    The problem is if Fogenhats or Omara does get that information, will she continue to be threatened is the issue…

    I personally feel that if they want to go fishing like this, and let us say Omara wins that argument for the fishing, if there is such handles… I feel the handles should be looked at in camera so that Fogenhats cant see them at the very least

    • MelRoy says:

      Sun Tzu wrote, “Know your enemies”. Thanks to BettyKath for reminding us about defense tactics.

      It’s one thing to hope the defense won’t try to rip this witness to shreds – destroy her credibility with innuendo and slander.

      O’Mara’s job is to keep George Zimmerman out of prison. Period. He will do whatever he has to do. Humanity and honesty doesn’t come into it. The only limitations are court rules of conduct. It doesn’t mean O’Mara is unhumane or inherently dishonest. I have known very good people who defended the worst of the worst. Because somebody has to.

      Mark O’Mara may have taken the case because he’s ambitious and wants, through the exposure this high profile case gives him, to expand his practice, to make a lot of money, write a book and do the lecture circuit. But he’s also got a very, very difficult client, and in my view not a great chance of success.

      O’Mara may have said at the beginning of the case that he would not put the victim on trial, but he has to. He has to put the victim on trial, and he has to put the witnesses on trial. He has got to get the jury to focus on something other than the evidence. We won’t like it. Let’s hope the jury won’t like it.

      • Jun says:

        I believe in knowing your enemy too

        It is a tactic even used in professional fighting, which is why fighters and coaches will study an opponent’s tape to gain an advantage

        I already know what Omara will attempt, and I feel the Governor and the state does too, hence them finding all that dirt and rebuttal for Omara’s assertion should it arise

        I am no longer surprised by them at all… the defendant and his gang are all evil people

    • Bill Taylor says:

      TY Jun, that is the problem i see with her speculation that DD may have told of martin attacking fogen on social media…..the forensic FACTS are already in Martin did NOT attack fogen…..so that speculation has NO basis in reality on any level and is a rejection of the known SCIENCE.

      • MelRoy says:

        I didn’t read it that way at all, Bill. I thought she was saying, in the defense’s fantastical bubble-think, that they might find something like that. It’s a pure fishing expedition, but they believe in miracles.

        Personally, I believe it’s part for show, part vexatious. Because the prosecution looked at George Zimmerman’s social media musings (and so did we). If the defense makes a big song and dance out of DeeDee’s old Facebook likes, but they are deemed irrelevant and inadmissable, O’Mara will try to sell that to the public as a conspiracy.

      • cielo62 says:

        Bill Taylor~ Remember that MOM is a DIVORCE lawyer! Innuendo and rumors are his stock and trade! He thinks that finding anything, no matter how small or vague, will help him win a MURDER case! HAHAHAHA!

      • Jun says:

        Science is fact

        and based on tested conclusions

        The forensics is basic science

        You touch something, you leave a trace or get a trace of the touched item, in a unique way

        Hitting someone would cause blood to splatter as well as smear onto the hand, especially the nose

        Fogenhats’ was bald that night, so there are only specific ways to grab his head, and all methods would cause blood splatter and dna transfer to occur from the grabbing

        There’s absolutely no trace of anything at all foreign to Trayvon on his hands, sleeves, and cuffs

        That is scientific fact

        • cielo62 says:

          Jun~ People are fallible and illogical. Juries are made up of people. Thus anything can happen and the prosecution better be willing to keep theses fallible and illogical people on the path of science.

      • Jun says:

        Well they can prove it by showing scientific tests if it comes to that

        However, it is pretty simple math… u touch something, you leave a trace and you get a trace of the item touched

        There will be illogical people but even they can see the defendant is a liar and it really is not difficult to understand blood splatter and transfer… it is really basic physics and science

        • cielo62 says:

          Jun~ I’m agreeing with you! But there have been SOME juries in the past that have really ticked me off! Honestly, how DUMB do you have to be to sit on a jury in Florida?

      • MelRoy says:

        Professor, I noticed stories on the Daily Beast, NBC and the NY Daily News among others describing O’Mara as a seasoned criminal defence attorney with a strong background in violent crime (including murder) cases. He was a prosecutor for Seminole County in the mid-80s, and half his cases in private practice are criminal defense, according to his self-published bio.

        He (famously, in Central Florida) defended Shamir Suber in 2004 on second degree murder charges, and other lawyers interviewed say he has defended “several” first degree murder cases.

        Obviously, I bow to your superior knowledge and experience (not to mention this is your blog!), and maybe divorce is his bread and butter, but if reports in the press are to be believed, he does have substantial experience in criminal defense.

      • pat deadder says:

        I have the utmost faith in BDLR’s ability to ferret out Omar’s counter arguments,I think I understand what BK is saying and I wish I had the patience to worry about what the defense is going to do,,I’m worried about Omar’s input in jury selection,Don’t have the knowledge about the law as you all do but come here everyday to learn and give me hope he’ll be convicted.

    • Dan Q. Smith says:

      Yes, and I didn’t like she (not the defense- she explicitly used the word, “COULD”) she hypothetically put “MF” in DeeDee’s mouth. “MF” are the same words Fogen put in Trayvon’s mouth. She has used words like “blood lust.” I don’t even support the dealth penalty and never have supported it. I respect her right to be here and her as a person, but at the end of the day I believe each of us must take responsibility for our own perceptions and opinions.

  73. Tzar says:

    I have followed Bettykath’s posts here for a while and we are…e-friends (kindred digital spirits).

    I saw the initial statement and it did not bother me, personally.
    And I understood what she was getting at, it was a “worst case scenario with the soc. netw. what are we looking at” type question.

    PS: E-friendship works a lot like real friendship in certain aspects, for example, they are both analogous to bank accounts where one makes deposits and withdrawals. As far as I am concerned that post by her was not a withdrawal but a deposit and she has made so many other deposits, so her account is flush with me. She is rich!!! and has lots of room to make actual withdrawals without any risk of being overdraft 🙂

    • kimmi says:

      Speaking of bank accounts, I totally agree with the Professor. I don’t get how when MOM was somewhat in charge of the defendants 314K (lets not forget the 64-65K defendant spent prior on bills, prepaid phones and internet, etc), how he let the defendant drive the bus and ‘waste’ so much of the defense funds available instead of putting it where it should have gone – to his defense.
      It really sickens me that Fogen has been afforded the opportunity to pay his defense, his living expenses and his ‘security’ that so many others in his situation would never have had the benefit of.
      Then, to so foolishly ‘waste’ basically all that was available to him, ‘beg’ for more, and still have the zidiots contributing more, just makes me want to puke!
      I imagine the Zimmerman clan are laughing all the way to the bank, literally. Only in America I guess, but it just befuddles me.

    • bettykath says:

      wow. thanks. I’ve liked your posts, too – lots of deposits.

      • Bk, this is the first place I’ve found to thank you for posting that reply. I feel this man’s cause deeply. I don’t understand , but my response definitely is not logical. I lived there many years ago , the police were terrible. Anyway, thanks again, 🙂

      • bettykath says:

        Vickie, I assume you’re referring the Mike Ruppert’s thoughts about Dorner. I suspect Dorner has a lot of support with mixed feelings. We care about his situation but can’t approve of his killing. From his pov, he’s probably just cleaning house and is giving his life in the process. It’s too bad he didn’t have the power to clean house in a nonviolent way.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Yes, absolutely. Good analogy.

    • leander22 says:

      I don’t get how when MOM was somewhat in charge of the defendants 314K (lets not forget the 64-65K defendant spent prior on bills, prepaid phones and internet, etc), how he let the defendant drive the bus and ‘waste’ so much of the defense funds available instead of putting it where it should have gone – to his defense.

      MOM is not in charge of the money, George is:

      While I don’t doubt that the intent is for Mark to spend the donated money on George Zimmerman’s defense (and by definition his lawyers’ fees), make no mistake at all – that money is George Zimmerman’s. George Zimmerman has complete control, authority, and final say as to where any of that money is spent. If there is any doubt as to the truth of this conclusion, one need look no further than Florida Bar Rule 5-1.1, Rules Regulating Trust Accounts.

      blog: blawg, Criminal Lawyer Richard Hornsby’s thoughts on legal related issues, current events, and popular culture. Jun 29, 2012, Poor George wants a bond.

      • I do not agree.

        MOM claims that he and West are not charging a fee for their services, but that does not mean that MOM cannot reimburse his costs with money in the trust account.

        The money was donated to the client to pay for his legal expenses and MOM deposited it into a trust account managed by a independent trustee with the responsibility to see that the money is spent in accord with the intent of the donors.

        The trustee has the ultimate say in how the money will be spent, however, if MOM and the client disagree.

        The problem is that everyone assumed the money would keep coming in, but they were wrong and now they are in serious trouble without sufficient funds to pay for necessary legal costs for investigators and expert witnesses.

        This situation would not have happened if MOM had insisted on retaining an investigator and forensic consultants last summer. He had a responsibility to do that in order to provide effective assistance of counsel.

        He failed to do it.

        The money was spent on other things and now there isn’t enough to pay for the necessary things.

        IMO he was grossly negligent and irresponsible not to insist that the money in trust be spent on paying for the foreseeable and reasonably necessary case-related costs in accord with the intentions of the donors.

      • kimmi says:

        I understand what you are saying, my point was that MOM had more influence over the funds then (with a trustee who was a retired IRS agent, IIRC), than what it is now, which is in a trust managed by a ‘trustee’ of George’s choosing, which could now be Jr for all we know!

        This imo, was a move to get the treepers to donate more because they thought that Fogen was not in total conrol of the bankroll.

        IMO, the money was handled irresponsibly then, and most likely it will be handled even more irresponsibly now with whoever Fogen appointed, along with even less accountability than before. JMO

      • kimmi says:

        Edit post-should not have said less accountability, but most likely someone with less accounting knowlege or skills.

      • leander22 says:

        Points taken, Frederick. no doubt there is quite a bit of hubris involved in spending the money.

        But strictly if an additional 180,000$ were collected after GZ’s initial fundraising success, it would still be 22,500 per month, if I assume it was collected over 8 month. (the accounting of past money spend happened in early January)

        So I am not sure, they will not get the money. Yes the problem will be to hire the people very fast, just as limited credit based on the AIS suit, as you have suggested. I have no idea how much he would need for experts very shortly. But I also have no idea if the 30,000$per month aim they intend to reach was already calculated with a continuance in mind.

        I think O’Mara’s media efforts will help a lot, since he will be repeating that GZ urgently needs money. I would also not completely rule out that the secret circle of high profile donors that wanted to sponsor Juan Baez have changed their minds, and maybe resigned to the O’Mara/West scenario.

        Jeralyn celebrated his post hearing comments to press in a comment under he last article on the case.

      • bettykath says:

        I think part of the problem is that the defendant’s plea for money was for his defense AND living expenses. MOM said to the press that one of the reasons for not declaring the defendant indigent was that there would be no provision for his living expenses. I think the defendant is making his choices that his current living expenses are more important than his defense. Perhaps there is no one willing to take him in. Paying a friend or relative for food and a token amount for a room has to be cheaper than his current arrangement.

        • cielo62 says:

          Uh, GZ has no friends (any more) and his family avoid him like the plague. His only options are jail and hotel rooms.


      • leander22 says:

        Perhaps there is no one willing to take him in.

        Part of the “how did we spend the money” argument was that they found something to rent now, which supposedly will diminish living expenses in the future. If you find people that donate, you’ll surely find someone that rents you a flat or a house.

      • kimmi says:

        Edit post-should not ONLY have said less accountability, but most likely someone with less accounting knowlege or skills. JMO
        Too much going on and trying to type at the same time : )

  74. Follow

    “If brains were axel grease, his client wouldn’t have enough to grease the dynamo on a lightning bug’s ass.”

    LMAO 🙂

    • bettykath says:

      I like that one too.

      • leander22 says:

        Betty that was my favorite:

        Belief and perception are one. What we call reality is a fabric woven out of our biases and prejudices.

        I was obviously overdoing the media campaign lately. It’s only a part of the larger strategy Frederick is well aware of. He wrote very good articles on the larger issue.

        I am pleased you are here, and did not witness attacks on you. Sorry, shouldn’t have happened. If I am quite honest I feel occasionally irritated by a false feeling of security too. I responded to your kind comment to me yesterday. This case pulls deeply on my emotional balance. I guess my ultimate problem is that the story feels so irritatingly familiar, in a way Trayvon is me.

        I want this case to change law profoundly so the people with an easy believe in their limited perceptions of the type of Zimmerman have slightly more problems in the future.

      • bettykath says:


        I saw the attacks more as a challenge to what I was saying than personal attacks. I knew I was going against the grain but thought we needed a wider perspective on the case. The professor has taken us wider a few times but I guess someone who is perceived as being on the “other side”, gets things stirred up a bit more.

        I agree that the SYG law needs to go away. I think the most egregious thing to be exposed is that the cops and the da decided it was SYG and that’s the end of it, without a complete investigation. This is not to belittle the death of Trayvon but, rather, how many other Trayvon’s are out there who been killed by cops or cop wannabe’s where the killer hasn’t even been charged b/c they claimed SYG. Once this case is settled, I hope there are federal charges against SPD for their handling of this and that it’s known that SYG claims don’t mean a pass until there is a complete investigation and a hearing where the defendant has to show self-defense.

      • leander22 says:

        Concerning Dorner, Ruppert feels perfectly correct, this may well be a the war coming home scenario:

        What I should have done, was put a Winchester Ranger SXT 9mm 147 grain bullet in his skull and Officer Magana’s skull.

        It would be very, very unwise to couple support for Trayvon with support for Dorner, I think he needs mental care urgently.

    • blushedbrown says:


      following behind the Mountain Man. 🙂

    • Professor, if you we’re to take on another case, what about Chris Dorner? My heart is crying for his struggle to clear his name. I know he has killed people,but I believe he is telling the truth. The whole country is against him now. He needs smart people to look into his story, thank you

      • roderick2012 says:

        Vickie, Dorner will either commit suicide or be killed by cops.

        My guess is the former.

      • bettykath says:

        from Cynthia McKinney’s fb page:

        Michael C. Ruppert: From my own experience as a Los Angeles police Officer and deep familiarity with both LAPD culture and history I can say that with regards to Christopher Dorner’s allegations regarding internal corruption, favoritism, racism and concealment of excessive force, I believe him 100%. My life as an investigative journalist focusing extensively on military, paramilitary and covert operations gives me absolute certainty that this man is an extremely dangerous weapon.

        Michael C. Ruppert: He is killing here in the United States the way too many US service members have killed routinely and with much less concern about Rules of Engagement overseas for decades.

        Michael C. Ruppert: I am also certain that his presence on the streets and any new engagements will put stresses on huge fault lines within law enforcement agencies in Southern California.

        — This man needs to be brought in alive and he needs to be heard. I will be discussing him on radio show THE LIFEBOAT HOUR this Sunday.

        Michael C. Ruppert: Author of “Crossing the Rubicon” and star of the 2009 documentary “Collapse”

      • Bill Taylor says:

        I dont “know” he has killed anyone yet? have seen no evidence that he shot anyone…….have seen plenty of evidence that the lapd is DOING the things he accused them of though……..how many trucks will the public allow the lapd to fill with holes before this insanity stops?

      • leander22 says:

        Read Murder Suspect Chris Dorner’s Online Manifesto About Slayings

        Haven’t read this yet. But from an interview I liked this guy.

        Betty, Michael Ruppert is a very special case, haven’t heard from him or read him for a while. But he may well know what is talking about. LA is James Ellroy’s ground, which happens to be my favorite US crime author. LA puzzled me, maybe I was in the wrong circles. I am more a San Francisco, Oakland, Berkley type.

      • bettykath says:

        leander, I was a subscriber to Mike’s From the Wilderness site for years. The archives of From the Wilderness are still available.. It was last updated in 2003. Lots of good stuff there. A place to read history as it was being made.

      • bettykath says:

        Bill, Dorner is accused of killing the daughter and fiance of one of his LAPD targets.

      • vickie…….I too share your belief in Chris Dorner. Sadly, people like the outhousers are having a field day with this because Dorner supports Obama and this is where much of the hate is coming from. Had Dorner been a tea-partier who was fired from the LAPD, you can bet that the outhousers would be screaming that his rights had been violated. This story is so tragic on so many levels. If he did indeed kill that couple in the car, then he does deserve jail time but, I want to know the WHOLE story first and how things got to this point.

      • leander22 says:

        leander, I was a subscriber to Mike’s From the Wilderness site for years.

        I read him for a while. But had huge problems when he supported a peculiar guy that send me through the web on an excursion concerning the guy’s criminal history. This is not open data over here, so in a way I was shocked. His argument was that this criminal history was a cover up for some type of cia or services related “work”. This guy claimed to have expert knowledge on 911. I was very, very hesitant to say the least.

        That said, I seem to be collecting data on LA. This interest may have been triggered by people i met there that told me what part of the city they were eying for their future mansions. And that it was a part of the city were the price of land was so high that people tended to knock down a mansion built there a couple of years earlier since the dozens of dollars were peanuts compared to the price of the land. From my limited perspective it is the town with the most visible economic divide between the rich and ordinary people or the poor. I would assume that the vast majority of police work concerning security is spend on the rich. And this may well be accompanied by the police atmosphere Dorner reports.

        Not long ago, I stumbled across an interview with Frank Zappa. Talking about a youth and multicultural youth culture developing in LA. And that it was pushed out of the clubs they used due to influential voices preventing the groups could use the clubs again. This interview, I think it was, contained quite a bit of information about the accompanying racism. …

        Thus in a way, I accept that some type of extreme experience as a narcotics officer in LA may well have shaped his perception. The problem I have with the Michael Ruppert’s of the world is, there is a fine line between fact and fiction. If you start to sell your stories they need a bit of entertainment and that may well be the “crux of the biscuit” to cite Zappa.

      • bettykath says:

        Mike wrote about the crack cocaine intro into LA, south central?. The question of why there? was answered when he was shown a map of a planned development. The current residents were targeted to become crack addicts so the land could be gentrified with minimum fuss and bother, and money.

      • leander22 says:

        Betty, I know Cynthia McKinney’s theory, surely sounds interesting. But I think the real specialist on LA and crack cocaine is the late Gary Webb. The story ruined his career as journalist.

      • bettykath says:

        From the comments of Cynthia McKinney’s fb page.
        Someone made copy of the Dorner’s manifesto almost immediately after it was first posted. It is the same at the beginning as the one in circulation, but the one in circulation is longer and has several paragraphs devoted to gun control.

        Click to access police.pdf

        There is also a Mike Ruppert interview on RT

      • bettykath says:


        The crack cocaine wasn’t Cynthia’s story afaik. Webb did great investigations on it. So did Mike, complementing Webb’s work. I believe it was Mike who was given the info re: the development work that was planned. Mike gave great credit to Webb for his investigative work. I’ve looked for a link to the information but haven’t found it. maybe it was in one of his dvd’s or during in-person presentation or maybe (least likely) a personal discussion.

    • Operacarla says:

      Thanks so much professor. Todys article really resonated with me. This is the first site I go to after work (I deliver the mail in Everett, WA). I don’t know why the Trayvon Martin murder hit me so hard. Perhapd because I have kids in college. I think it was just the HUGE injustice done to this innocent young man. It tore my heart up when I first heard of it and it does today. Your comments about hoping to find a new case in the future where we can all learn about what is important in a defence winning case made me so happy. I realized that I will probably be spending years learning from you in a respectful atmosphere. And with all of my friends!!! I sent a donation today. It isn’t much but I am pledging to donate every other month. I’m here everyday. Thanks so much for the education and most important the civility that your kind soul expects!

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s