Featuring: Lonnie Starr Explains Why Dee Dee is Credible and I Explain Witness Tampering

Thursday, February 7, 2013

Lonnie Starr is starring in today’s Featuring feature. Day in and day out, he skins the onion with solid comments that systematically peel back layer after layer of the defendant’s lies destroying his claim of self-defense.

I follow with an explanation of the excited utterance and present sense exceptions to the hearsay rule and a short explanation why the use of doxing and character assassination of Dee Dee constitutes first degree witness tampering, punishable by up to life in prison.

At 8:12 am he wrote the following comment explaining why Dee Dee’s statements are self-authenticating and the defense efforts to access her social media accounts are irrelevant:

The social media accounts of DD are not probative, because she was not physically present in RATL when these events took place, she is only an “ear witness” to what would be hearsay if not for the exceptions to those rules.

As such, I would not allow them to go after her social media material, because it’s only utility is as impeachment material. No amount of impeachment material, that is external to her statements about what she witnessed by ear, can have any fair application. If this witness is to be impeached in any way, shape or form, that impeachment must come from a demonstration that what she is testifying to is either not what occurred or could not have occurred.

This is because, obviously, without having been present and without any knowledge of the paths, roads, houses, their locations and the distances between them, she could not possibly fashion false testimony that could fit the conditions that night, with any precision at all.

MOM needs to climb back into his cave, he’s trying to cover up his own gross stupidity with even more wasteful gross stupidity.

Even if he were to get his hands on her social media materials, and managed to find some kind of impeachment material in them, it would not be allowed in court, because it would not be either relevant or probative. In short, you cannot impeach an account that cannot be falsely fashioned.

Although I think the information in Dee Dee’s social media accounts is discoverable, assuming she has any accounts, I agree with Lonnie’s conclusion that the information is irrelevant and inadmissible.

The defendant, his defense team and his rabidly confused supporters do not seem to understand that information in Dee Dee’s social media accounts, assuming she has any accounts, is unlikely to be admissible at trial.

The rules of evidence do not permit lawyers to attack the credibility of witnesses by throwing mud in their faces to see how much of it sticks. Assuming for the sake of argument that she is everything they claim she is and worse, none of that bad act and bad character evidence will be admissible. It does not matter, for example, if she lied about going to the hospital instead of Trayvon’s funeral. She could have partied naked in a crack house all night long having sex with animals and the defense would not be permitted to mention it.

Whether she was his girlfriend, boyfriend, friend, 5 years old, 100 years old or somewhere in between, is irrelevant.

She could have been a telemarketer trying to sell him a bushel of used rubbers packaged by the Koch brothers and Trayvon nothing more to her than a voice on the phone and she still would be able to testify about the conversation.

How can this be?

Simple.

The relevancy rule and excited-utterance and present-sense-impression exceptions to the hearsay rule permit her to tell the jury what Trayvon told her about his encounter with the creepy man and what he did to get away from him as well as what Trayvon and the creepy man said to each other and what she heard when the phone went dead.

The reason his statements are admissible is that he was describing an exciting event as it was happening and influencing him. Contemporaneous descriptions of exciting events by witnesses involved in and experiencing those events have long been admissible to prove those events happened as described. Indeed, this is well-settled law. If the defense objects, it will get nothing but a stern and withering glance from Judge Nelson as she says, “Objection overruled.”

The jury will assess Trayvon’s credibility regarding his encounter with the creepy man just as it will assess the credibility of the creepy man’s numerous conflicting and inconsistent statements about that encounter. The jury will look at the rest of the evidence, particularly the physical and forensic evidence as well as the testimonies of the various witnesses to the encounter and the shooting.

It doesn’t take a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows.

As Lonnie points out, Dee Dee was not present during the encounter and did not know anything about the neighborhood. She can only tell the jury what Trayvon told her. She would not have known what to lie about because she was not there. If anything, her statement is frustratingly vague and that ironically enhances her credibility in a manner that a more detailed statement tailored to establish each element of the crime charged would not.

The defense is not likely to persuade the jury that Benjamin Crump told her what to say. Matt Gutman’s (ABC News) recording will no doubt verify that. He would not have been invited to be present and record the conversation, if Crump had any funny business in mind. That recording created a great insurance policy.

As a former criminal defense lawyer and officer of the court, I am extremely offended by the efforts to dox, demonize and intimidate Dee Dee. Pure and simple it’s criminal behavior because it is motivated by a desire to keep her from testifying or to destroy her credibility if she does testify.

Witness intimidation via character assassination by false statement and innuendo is not protected speech under the First Amendment.

Since Dee Dee is a prosecution witness in a second degree murder case, those who seek to assassinate her character with false statements and innuendo are committing the crime of first degree witness intimidation.

Intimidating a witness to a murder in Florida is first degree witness tampering punishable by a sentence of imprisonment of up to life in prison.

I sincerely hope that anyone who attempts to intimidate Dee Dee is prosecuted, convicted and sentenced to a lengthy prison term.

They deserve it.

493 Responses to Featuring: Lonnie Starr Explains Why Dee Dee is Credible and I Explain Witness Tampering

  1. xy11xy says:

    Should DeeDee have her own lawyer?

  2. John says:

    The only phone found at the scene of Trayvon’s death was the one with the heart shaped sticker.

    Ownership of this phone has sometimes been attributed to someone other than Trayvon.

    If Dee Dee was not in contact with this phone, but instead with Trayvon’s family plan phone, then since that phone was not recovered at the death-scene, but remained in the custody of the Martin family, then Dee Dee’s testimony about the actual confrontation is nullified.

    The ping logs for all phones involved may permit calculation of the routes followed by the phones, and presumably, their owners, with an accuracy of about 20 feet.

    This should be sufficient to confirm or refute the respective narratives of the defence or the prosecution.

    • Jun says:

      1) Whether Trayvon or someone else owned that phone, the simple fact is, he was using the phone that night, so even if it belonged to his mother, the testimony has not been nullified because this allegation

      2) The phone found at the scene has been matched via the sim card with phone records and was the phone used that night that was in contact with w8 that night, and has been matched to that of being owned by Trayvon and family and has been in police custody since it was found. The sim card was found inside the phone.

      3) There is no such thing as ping logs. They can potentially see when and where the phone was connecting when calls were made. Within the phones are GPS data.

      I also highly doubt there is anything there that will refute the state’s narratives

  3. esentrick says:

    I was reviewing the Hearing on 2/05 again and noticed MOM referenced that the prosecution was in violation of specific discovery which there was missed Brady Material in reference to Trayvon’s phone and FDLE reports. What could possibly be missed Brady Material?

    • esentrick says:

      sorry, I only wanted to post the link. MOM begin at the 1:48 mark.

    • aussie says:

      The “missing” GPS records for Trayvon’s phone for Feb 26???

      Assuming of course that it would prove Tray attacked GZ, so would be exculpatory for GZ. And assuming a “violation” in that they supposedly have the records for that day but are deliberately with-holding it.

      The usual BS in other words.

      ===============
      DID THEY GET GPS OFF GZ’S PHONE????

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      That has to be some pro Z theory that if GPS shows that Trayvon turned back north, he did so to attack GZ. We may never discover why TM turned and went north, but for whatever reason he did so, there was no intent to attack as the cause. One has to realize that what MOM says is not evidence and will probably never be tested at trial.

      Glean what you can from MOM’s requests and omissions, but there’s little to no reason to take him seriously. Because he has shown himself to be incapable of discovering evidence to work with. Not that there is any more for him to discover, since GZ has adequately displayed how he has contrived to escape guilt, and failed because of his own inadequacies.

  4. colin black says:

    An it was B I G Smalls not Tupac he is suspected of shooting.

  5. colin black says:

    Re above was L A P D he flipped on over fifty corrupt officers an even a couple of attorneys .
    But he was by far the worst of a bad bad bunch.

  6. colin black says:

    seallison says:

    February 8, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    Really – tell me what is going on these days. Seems like LE are almost nothing more than licensed thugs sometimes.

    They are one named Martinez ? Could be wrong?
    But he an his partner were working as enforcers /druud suppliers to the Bloods an Sug Knight of Death Row records.

    Thet were robbing an shutting down dealers
    Murdering problem homeless prople whom were causeing greif an had guns ready to plant on there victims.

    They also took drugs from evidence lockers to be destoyed an swaped flour to burn instead of cocaine.
    Martinezs partner was even robbing banks.

    They have een been naned as viable supects in Tupacs murder.
    On arrest Martinz or whatever his name was demanded a deal an flipped on everyone.
    The D A Didnt want to cut him a deal .
    But he told them there was an innocent man serveing 25 to life for attempted murder of two police officers.
    Him an his parner took the homless guy into a vacant building an shot him multiple times an planted the pistol on him.
    He survived though wheel chair bound for life.
    So with this ace in his hand ie nameing the innocent guy he got his ten year deal fot multiple heinous crimes.

    • cielo62 says:

      MMP~ This story, while sad, is not really about Adderall. It’s about the abuse of ANY prescription drug. R. Fee did NOT have ADHD. He was a competitive, ambitious and driven young man, using a controlled substance to increase his “edge.” No different than a cocaine addict. What’s sad is that it appears that Adderall can be fairly easy to obtain. Well, so could semi-automatic weapons, Xanax, cocaine or anything else deadly, if you know where to look and who to ask. I don’t really see the value of this story. Richard Fee was 28 years old; an adult. His parents had zero say about what he chose to take. Once again, the “system” is blamed instead of the individual. Adult ADHD is NOT that rare, in spite of what was said in the article. I have adult ADHD. Luckily, I muddle along without meds because my case is not so severe. But we DO exist. And banning adderall is just not a good reaction to a drug abuser’s death.

      • Cielo

        Sad to hear about your ADHD……you’re not alone……..include me also……without medication I survive and get by very well.

        The point I was trying to make with this story was…..as I’ve commented before….if fogen was taking a little extra of his meds for the boost?…..If he was? then the story is pertinent.

        • cielo62 says:

          Sorry MMP. I didn’t see the connection. But you know, even IF GZ took a little too much that night, he cannot blame the addderall for his behavior> Richard Fee went TOTALLY psychotic and died. GZ just murdered someone in cold blood because he could.   The best thing I have for my ADHD is a job that just made for an adult ADHD… elementary school teacher! Always moving and grooving, talking and teaching. Never a dull moment. Learnig to actually PLAN has taken alot of work, but each day is full of activity.

      • Lynn says:

        @ cielo62

        ADHD here, too. Just thought I’d share my first ADHD/teacher encounter…
        I went to my daughter’s open house in kindergarten. The kids had drawn what they thought was the hardest part of school. I felt ambushed when the teacher pops up out of nowhere and demands to know the reason why my kid had drawn the reading time setting. Didn’t my child like reading time???

        I just laughed.

        Then I had to explain that sitting still on their little individual square rugs on the floor to listen to the teacher read was unbearable for my tiny ADHD sufferer. She LOVED reading but could only think of it as torture because she had to sit so still in one spot for what seemed like an eternity.

        I believe you are an amazing elem teacher BECAUSE you have ADHD. My kid’s doctor offered to place me on meds but I refused. I couldn’t imagine having the energy to handle her if I was medicated. LOL

        • cielo62 says:

          Lynn~ Thank you for the complement! I try my best to use my ADHD as a TALENT and not as burden. This way, I try new technologies, make new flipcharts, answer off the wall questions, research stuff on google if it comes up in class discussions, and basically made education both solid and intersting. I expect my 2nd graders to be able to read still for @ 15 minutes. If they can’t do it, then their ADHD might be a bit too strong, and I’ll find an option, like maybe reading standing or walking around. In my youth I read while in a rocking chair, having both the movement AND reading. Maybe you could try that. I wish that teacher would consider it. If you are ever in Houston, come visit!

  7. colin black says:

    erm conclusion an vindicating I meant.

  8. colin black says:

    Jun he is repeating a mantra wich began
    Back when foggen was just about to be arrested.
    Or was not long in jail awaiting his first bond hearing.
    A report was issued that the F B I had found no evidence re foggens being a raceist .
    This was after talking to some of foggens cohorts like F Saltwatertaffe an Mr an Mrs Oysterman
    This was not a concussion to there investigation.
    Just an early off the cuff update.
    That foggens backers or more apt Trayvon haters jumped on as vidicating there guy

    • Jun says:

      That’s actually false though

      They never cleared him… if they did, they would not be still investigating him

      Besides the state of Florida already found evidence he was a racist, which is provided by w9 and also by Fogenhats’ own words and actions…

      I think the FBI are just sitting and waiting for their turn

  9. Jun says:

    LMAO I caught another Omara BS line

    He claims the FBI cleared Fogenhats of racism but then…

    in his motion…

    he asked for all the FBI files on Fogenhats

    LOL

    How do you know he is cleared yet you need all the FBI files on him?

    It means he is lying again LMAO

    • lurker says:

      I don’t know that it is fair or accurate to say that the FBI clear George of racism or being a racist. What they were investigating was whether there was evidence that this was a hate crime–meaning an intent to go out and hunt up black guys because they were black. I don’t know that racial profiling reaches the required criteria. Clearly George, and his buddy Taafe (whose interviews have never done him any favors) were predisposed to believe that blacks moving into their neighborhood were responsible for what they perceived to be a crime wave. Ol’ Frank (you plant corn you get corn) helpfully shared that they guy that Zimmerman allegedly saw “looking into” his own house, was the same guy who was arrested later for a break-in down the block–and lived in the community.

      • Jun says:

        That is true also but my main point is if he was so sure that the FBI cleared him, why does he need their files?

        The FBI are doing their own investigation, and only when they do file their charges, are they legally obligated to turn over discovery

        The crime wave thing was a cover… they were trying to demonize Trayvon by concocting lies… if you look at real police reports and testimony from witnesses… none of them noticed any rash of break ins… only w11 claimed there was but she only heard it from Fogenhats

      • lurker says:

        I agree it was nothing but cover. What kinda blew me away this AM was a youtube video of an interview with Taafe. This was after he had talked to Z. and plainly gotten talking points. Despite being asked something completely different, he launched into the story of how Z. saw a young man looking into Taafe’s house, called SPD, but the kid was gone before they arrived. Taafe then claims that the same kid (according to whom, of course) was later arrested for a break in. And then Taafe adds what he claims to be a “twist,” by saying that it turned the kid lived in the neighborhood. Apparently the point that Z. wanted him to make was that when he followed protocol and didn’t give chase this resulted in “them” always getting away. Fortunately the other guest was Crump’s partner who practically laughed in his face and called him out for trying to justify going after any black kid seen in the neighborhood. The hostess had to shut off the mikes and go to a pyschologist who was guesting who pointed out that while paranoia may result from experience, it doesn’t justify Z’s behavior.

      • Xena says:

        @lurker

        What they were investigating was whether there was evidence that this was a hate crime–meaning an intent to go out and hunt up black guys because they were black.

        Excellent point.

        GZ sent emails to residents and also talked to them about crime in that community where he practically said that only young Black males were guilty. A Black resident gave a media interview about this, saying that he was afraid to jog in the community because he did not want to be suspected of being a criminal. In that interview, the resident also stated that GZ pointed out to him that he carries a gun, and recommended that he (the resident) get one for himself and his wife. That is pretty inconsistent with GZ giving the impression that he was the hero crime stopper.

    • racerrodig says:

      The FBI stated they did not have enough to charge him with a hate crime at that time and that’s all they said. O’ Mara is not entitled to any of their files in any way, shape or form until he is charged. Then he has to follow discovery procedures.

      • Defendants don’t get much discovery in federal court. They only get copies of

        statements they made

        search warrants and the affidavits for search warrants

        inventory of items seized.

        They don’t get anything else until the trial.

        Federal discovery rules are affectionately referred to as trial by ambush.

        • cielo62 says:

          Dang! Not exactly my kind of “affection”.

        • racerrodig says:

          Funny you mention that. In our Federal Lawsuit, which is civil and different rules apply than criminal, our attorney said the same thing. When Ocwen and Deutsche Bank made a Motion to move it from State to Federal Court, our attorney made only the most feeble of arguments. He said that the burden of proof is a bit tighter but the penalties are much stiffer. But he said we don’t need to turn over much, as all of our evidence they have already in some fashion whether they know it or not.

          My Federal guys have stated the same thing. Trial by ambush isn’t quite what they said……..I really won’t repeat how it was phrased but I’d say Trial by Ambush is accurate.

          I do know PhogenPhoole is Ph……well, we all know what the future holds.

  10. colin black says:

    Welcome Danita…..

    Seems that even a deranged mad as hell cop.
    Still puts creedence into foggens he attacked me story.

    Saying to bad he didint crack his skull open

    Well for one foggens skull is to thick for that
    An for Two
    Trayvon never laid a finger on foggen to attack him let alone pounding his head of the concrete dog walk
    If it had happened the way foggen described the H O A ,
    Would have had to hire maintinece to repair the damage foggens thick skull would have gone to the pathway.

    • Colin

      Jethro Tull…….”Thick as a Brick”

      • racerrodig says:

        Now ya did it……try this to “AquaLung”

        Walking in the rain now
        Eyeing someone now with bad intent
        Lies are coming from his mouth
        Greasy fingers, playing with his gun
        Walking in the cold rain
        Watching as the kid named Trayvon runs
        Feeling like a bad dude
        Spitting out pieces of his broken luck

        Sun streaking cold that Fogen wandering lonely
        Taking time the only way he knows
        Legs hurting bad he gains weight everyday now
        He roams now with his GPS still on

        Feeling alone, detectives on the move now
        Salvation a la’ mode is not for you
        FogenPhoole my friend don’t start away uneasy
        You poor old sod, you see, it’s only me (LLMPapa’s Video’s !!)

        Do you still remember that first court agony
        How those lies you spewed are now just agony
        And you’ll snatch you’re rattling last breaths
        With deep sea diver sounds
        When the flowers bloom like madness in the spring

        FogenPhoole my friend don’t start away uneasy
        You poor old sod, you see, it’s only me

  11. Jun says:

    You know what I noticed…

    Fogenhats is putting on the Howdy Doody act strong now in court

    He purposely dresses and acts like a kid

    Gets his haircut like ASTROBOY

    Shaves… gets pudgy… when he looks in the camera, he tries not to have an evil smirk or menacing stare, except when he’s looking at Bernie angrily

    LOL More scams from Fogenhats

    • Notice also he let his hair grow out…….he doesn’t want any implications he might be a gangbanger or skinhead…..just sayin’

    • Rachael says:

      Some antidepressant medications can result in a mask-like facial expressions, so maybe that is his problem (and many of them cause weight gain as well), but I sure am glad to no longer see that smirk. That irritated me to no end. I don’t think I EVER wanted to slap someone as badly as I wanted to slap that smirk right off of his face, and I am not a violent person.

      • Jun says:

        That’s normal… Fogenhats is an asshole… so is Junior and his pops… I’d personally love to Jackie Chan all them up with a bunch of kicks and punches… I dont do it though because I have self control LOL

      • racerrodig says:

        That smug smirk…..same here. One good shot and I’ll show him what a real broken nose looks like.

      • rnewton32 says:

        His brother has the same irritating smirk on his face as he does interviews. I don’t see how anyone can find any humor in a situation where you or your family are at risk of losing their freedom over the murder of a child. That entire family has a serious malfunction. Something just aint right about them.

    • lurker says:

      I noticed a marked difference in his affect. In the early court appearances he sits ram-rod straight and alert through-out. It is as if he has convinced himself that his demeanor is going to make him believable and he is going to do it to the hilt. I think that things are beginning to sink in and he is realizing that sooner or later the jig will be up. O’Mara must have advised him as well that any coif too close to a skin-head look would not be to his advantage.

      • Rachael says:

        Yeah. I think it is starting to sink in to him too. Too bad his brother doesn’t get it yet. He really needs to shut his mouth. He isn’t helping anything every time he opens it. But at least GZ, I think, is starting to get it now.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          It’s very telling that nothing RZ has said has been taken into evidence by the SP. Guess that means they believe he’s irrelevant, eh? |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

          • jm says:

            Lonnie says: “It’s very telling that nothing RZ has said has been taken into evidence by the SP. Guess that means they believe he’s irrelevant, eh?

            Seriously, what is up with RZJ? Why does he keep spouting and endorsing untruths when all evidence points to the fact GZ is lying? Does he not see what Judge Lester saw?

            Is it just face time on TV and the need to have a degree of fame?

            |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

      • Cercando Luce says:

        “Skinhead” is good for donations, though.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Guess those women will be hunting for counsel.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      I counted 45+ holes in the tailgate and rear window of the women’s blue truck. How could it be a case of mistaken identity if the LAPD detectives fired from behind? There were two people in there!
      Article goes on to mention that the LAPD fired on another civilian truck, this one black in color, half an hour later.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Oh I geddit now. The lookout was for a gray Nissan p/u with plates 8D83987, and the news delivery ladies were in a blue P/U with plates 8D68341. All Californians with plates starting with “8D…” better leave their vehicles parked, empty, a safe distance from home.

  12. blushedbrown says:

    logging in disregard post

  13. Trained Observer says:

    Just read Crump’s 15-pager … great for a coffee break. Tee and Eric, you’ll get insight on how DD’s role became known to Crump, and later to others.

    My favorite line is on Page 12, Point 32: “As set forth, supra, the defendant’s supposition is mistaken,.”

    What a poised understatement. For me, how about effin’ dead wrong? In fact, defendant’s supposition on a lot more than length or details of Mr. Crump’s recording has been dead wrong, wrong, wrong from the get-go.

    That goes suppositions nad assumptions by the Sanford P.D., Bill Lee and Norm Wolfinger, too.

  14. blushedbrown says:

    @Racer

    I drew a blank to your riddle!
    But I see that MMP, answered.

    Its’ all good. Love Mickey D’s.

  15. Danita says:

    Hey there everyone, Iam new to post but I’ve read hear for the past six months.Great site i have been wanting to say something for the longest time, but it seems as if Im the only person who saw this.Early on when this case hit the airways I was watching the coverage and I saw Zimmerman in a short sleeve white T shirt standing at the police car in handcuffs waiting to get in the car. There was no blood on his shirt and it appeared the the coverage was from a TV camera. Now i have never seen that coverage ever again and ive been so confused as to how he arrived at the station in completely different clothes. I do belive there was a witness who stated she saw a man in a white T, and she saw what she saw as I did as well. Wheres that footage. Another thing Zimmerman claimed that after Trayvon was shot he used the word “you got me”, when I listen to his 911 call at the end he states to the dispatcher “You got it” just before he hangs up. My point is he seemed so scripted all the time. This has been such a comforting site and its wonderful to read at a place where people have hearts.

    • blushedbrown says:

      @Danita

      Welcome!
      Thanks for posting.

    • Eric says:

      Welcome Danita. Thats interesting about the footage you saw. If he was wearing a white Tee, then maybe blood was on it and he was allowed to change and discard it.

      • Tee says:

        He may have had his jacket off, his tee shirt was grey which can be mistken as light or white in the dark. he was photographed first with his jacket opened than closed. I wonder did the tee shirt he was wearing had any wetness or grass on it.

    • The school teacher also said that as he walked toward her apartment toward the T after the gun shot, she described him as wearing a light-colored tee shirt. It is in her initial statement.

  16. Cercando Luce says:

    DeeDee is also in danger after trial, or even if she’s not called as a witness. The State of Florida has a special responsibility to keep her safe, no matter what her age is, from the many who have stated intent to harm her as well as from their like-minded supporters. Her parents made an amazingly accurate judgment call 11 months ago. How did they know it would come to this?

    • blushedbrown says:

      @Luce

      I agree you 100%

      Because they know how the system can work against you if you are not careful, would be my guess.

  17. Tee says:

    What gets me is that They are targeting her social media account as if they are actually going to find something to tarnish her character. It’s their client character they should be worried about. This young girl kept that she was even on the phone with Trayvon a secret for 2 weeks because she was so scared of what happened that night, why would she post anything about it if she was keeping her secret so close to her chest. Dee Dee phone records speak for her, hell Fogen backed up her statement when he said Trayvon asked him what’s his problem & what he’s following him for. She was on the phone with Trayvon, almost everything that Trayvon told her can be proven just by looking at the evidence. Is she a credible witness, yes! Her phone log is an excellent witness, who “Lie in wait” while talking on the phone.

    • Eric says:

      I’m not sure she kept a secret for 2 weeks. She very well may have told Trayvon’s mother, who relayed the info to Crump. Crump may have decided to wait until getting Martins phone records to make sure DD was telling the truth about the conversation she had with Martin. Crump could have then contacted DD on the 18th of March to set up the recording on the 19th. Simply because she didn’t jump in front of a camera crew and put on a show ala Taafe and RZ jr. doesn’t mean DD was keeping secrets.

      • lurker says:

        My understanding was that her family was reluctant to allow her to come forward.

        • racerrodig says:

          Partly but more than that they took the “Lets play this smart and not make any mistakes” approach.

          The best thing for the opposition is letting is when you never shut up ala FogenPhoole and his posse. The more they talk, the more the State has to use against them.

          What has Dee Dee said that is in conflict with anything.

    • Malisha says:

      I don’t think DeeDee “kept” anything secret; I think she was utterly passive about this whole thing because it was beyond her to figure out what to do. I think she was overwhelmed and unprepared (who wouldn’t be?) for this in her life. Not everybody acts like a character on a TV crime drama.

      • aussie says:

        Often when someone dies unexpectedly, people say things like “but I saw him in the shops only yesterday” it’s a way of expressing not having had any warning of the impending death. …. so perhaps DD did say to a few people “I was on the phone to him all day…”

        But none of this might be seen as relevant at the time. The assumption, unfounded as it seems to be, is usually that (a) someone got shot (b) someone will get arrested. In this case someone had already admitted to it and was being questioned by the police. So nobody would think their earlier conversations with the victim are important.

        Even if DD thought the creepy guy is the one who’d killed Trayvon…. she’d be expecting him to BE ARRESTED. When it becomes obvious he won’t be, she doesn’t realise the huge bomb she’s sitting on, that can blow up GZ’s story.

        It’s only when the phone records show they were talking less than 2 minutes before the shot, that it occurs to someone that last call may include relevant evidence.

      • Tee says:

        I have read that she didn’t tell anyone that she was on the phone with Trayvon that night, that she was carrying around guilt because she hadn’t come forward at the time. She was scared and it actually became to much for her to handle that’s why she was taken to the hospital.

    • Jun says:

      its called fishing expeditions

      I wonder if any attacks on witnesses also opens the door on Zimmernuts LOL

    • Trained Observer says:

      Ben Crump goes into great detail in his affidavit on how DeeDee became known to him as the Martin family counsel, and to other authorities. He makes reference to her missing Trayvon’s wake because she had to go to the hospital. Crump used the term wake, not funeral. So the Trayvon cousin who said he met DeeDee at Trayvon’s funeral may well have done so.

      • Tee says:

        The wake and the funeral are two different things. African American cook food bring it to the family house the night before the furneral and everyone eat, drink and celebrate the life of the deceased. Cards are giving that night sometimes they may contain money, friend and relatives sit around & talk and laugh about how the deceased person touched their life. It’s not sad it’s the one time we celebrate their life without crying boat loads of tears.

  18. tony reay says:

    just in case y’all missed this one..

    LOS ANGELES —A massive manhunt is under way for Christopher Dorner, a former Los Angeles Police Department officer wanted in three killings, and a Central Florida connection has emerged.

    The armed and dangerous man left behind a bitter manifesto on his Facebook page. In it, he weighs in about a controversial news story from Sanford – the Trayvon Martin case.

    Dorner addressed George Zimmerman directly.

    “If you continuously followed me while I was walking at dusk/night I would confront you as well. Too bad Trayvon didn’t smash your skull completely open, Zim,” Dorner wrote.

    Dorner’s burned-out truck was found in the mountain community of Big Bear, California on Wednesday afternoon. There was no trace of the suspect.

    Investigators said Dorner is hunting police officers. He claims he was treated unfairly and detailed threats against two-dozen police officers he intends to kill.

    Dorner is accused of killing a police offer, the 27-year-old daughter of a former co-worker and that woman’s fiancé.

    The search for Dorner is expansive. Detectives believe he could be anywhere in the southwest U.S., or even Mexico.

    Dorner is a trained military marksman. In his post, he promised to bring “asymmetrical” and “unconventional” warfare to members of the LAPD.

    Read more: http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/Ex-cop-wanted-in-deaths-mentions-George-Zimmerman-in-manifesto/-/11788162/18463336/-/ovsrl6/-/index.html#ixzz2KJawnEYI

    • Jun says:

      Looks like Junior and Fogenhats is in trouble if the cops cant catch Dormer LOL

      Yes Fogenats and Junior, yall will need more than bulletproof vests because Dormer can still shoot yall in the legs, arms, butt, neck, and head

      Looks like Omara will have to pay the 18K over to AIS, grovel, and then get them on contract again LMAO

      • racerrodig says:

        Versache was the victim of a nut from CA……Hmmmmmmm ?

        • Ya know fogen has to be in serious sphincter flutter if he’s read about Dornan………..curled up under his bed in his jammies with his teddy.

          • racerrodig says:

            As sick as it is, it’s food for thought. I can’t help but think there is someone out there peering through some high power binoculars or scope thinking “….move to the right…..a little more…….a few more inches…..damn, there’s that car again”

            Or a couple of sicko’s like John Allen Muhammed & Lee Boyd Malvo, the DC snipers.

            After all……that’s pretty much what FogenPhoole did.

          • racerrodig says:

            He hehehehe !! “….a little more…..just a liiiitttllle to the left……”

            To be Continued………………….(read..your turn)

          • “The taking of Fogen in 1, 2, 3”

          • racerrodig says:

            I fell off my stool, hurt my ribs and my right elbow and I have to put this 440 crankshaft in the block. I blame you for my pain !!

            The original Pelham 123 is a fabulous movie.

            You, my friend are “Da Man”

          • So don’t go makin’ cracks about Philatelists….. 🙂

            It’s a hell of a lot more than stickin’ stamps in an album…..Postal History my friend 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            So I guess it makes them less valuable if you lick them then??

          • Actually quite the opposite is generally the case Race…Example

            Scott Germany / Saxony (early german state) #20a issued 1863 is $8.25 post office fresh……$275.00 Used

            Scott #LJ3 Germany Rural Postage Due stamp issued 1862?…..$26.00 post office fresh………$20,000.00 used

            The cancels are used for collection where one is tracking postal routes.

            Imagine the value of a cover (letter) canceled 9-11-01 if any mail had left the Twin Towers on 9-11….again…postal history

            Over 200 covers (letters) survived the crash of the Hindenburg…..most scorched or burnt around the edges…..When they do come up for sale?……they go for many thousands each.

          • racerrodig says:

            So it’s a lot more than just collecting rare stamps. I learn something everyday. The stamp collectors I know make it sound booooorring.
            I can imagine a letter or stamp that was a 9/11 survivor being very valuable, I just never put that aspect into it.

            I have some collectable race car and guitar stuff that the average person would never think is anything but yard sale junk.

          • Yup….Pretty much….then you add in varieties…..errors (the upside down airplane)…some very minor….yet boost the price a bit….

            Here’s a link you may like….Herb is a friend of mine…And also…..I have an expertized set of these stamps in my collections 🙂

            http://www.psywarrior.com/Cornflakes2.html

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m going to read that in it’s entirety later on but that is cool. I have a friend that is into Nazi artifacts and has tons of stuff. I have that PPK and about a dozen or so SS badges, and uniform emblems.

          • These stamps AREN’T nazi….they’re propaganda stamps printed by the OSS…..they would put these stamps on letters addressed to people in germany..letters containing more propaganda….packed them into confiscated german mail bags…..A squadron of fighters attacks a german train…..blows it to hell….other planes fly behind and drop these sacks full of propaganda into the wreckage…germans being diligent people that they are made sure what mail survived went back on it’s way. 🙂

            The name of the operation “Cornflakes” relates to the germans receiving their mail around breakfast time…….

            I AM NOT you stereotypical stamp collector…..for that matter I’m pretty much not your stereotypical anything :)…. Just me

          • cielo62 says:

            MMP and Racerrodig~ It would be a great honor for me to someday meet you guys. Hand made rifles, hot rods… what’s NOT to love?  🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            It would be my pleasure. In fact my wife and I had “AnotherAndy” over for dinner back in August and September last year and I “met” him on HP. He lived in Philla PA. He stayed with us for a week or so before Christmas when his landlord evicted him illegally so he could get his friend in there. I love meeting new people.

            Any time you are in the NJ area…..let us know….Dinners on us !

          • cielo62 says:

            racerrodig~ WOW, NJ! Is it snowing there? Are you guys safe? My mom and 2 of my brothers live in Maryland. I’m a Maryland girl myself. NJ would be fun to visit, next time I’m in Maryland!

          • racerrodig says:

            It started an hour ago but is not sticking. It’s been to warm the last few days but it is supposed to get colder tonight. Anytime your in the neighborhood….it’s our pleasure. My wife marvels at how I make friends…….there are to many different flavors of Ice Cream in this world and we all are a flavor.

          • racerrodig says:

            I didn’t say they were Nazi stamps, I just said I have a friend who…

            I will say though, after reading some of that it’s really interesting as I’m a big history buff.

          • cielo62 says:

            racerrodig~ “One man’s trash is another man’s treasure.”

          • Cielo

            It’s such an escape for me….the history behind the stamp….it’s travels….Imagine….I sit here with a stamp issued in a german state …..say 1855….think of how the wood was cut and hauled to make the paper….there was no electricity then…the printing to,,,,there was a horse no doubt used in it’s delivery….think of the travels this little scrap of paper has had……only to end up in my hands…..and I sit and think about it’s future travels and owners….and the technologies that evolved during it’s lifetime”?

            Yup I’m a FANATIC about sumtin 🙂

            Example…..I buy a collection of german stamps from a dealer in Hong Kong…..I list them in my store….and sell maybe half to people in germany !!!!!!!!!!

          • cielo62 says:

            MMP~ every now and then, I hold an artifact in my hand and wonder the same thing. When I was Israel, many years ago in my youth, I went to all the archeoligical sites I had studied. and wondered about those people who had lived there, had full lives there; what did they do for fun? Did they have pet names for each other? Did they love their pets as lovingly as we do today? It’s humbling to place oneself in history. Maybe in 100 years, when my brand new school will be decrepit  and torn down and our time capsule opened, will people wonder who was this Cielo person? History is amazing. I agree with you 100%.

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m into history and gizmo’s One of my Federal guys was an IRS Criminal Investigator and showed me a ton of stuff confiscated over the last 50 or so years that was used to counterfeit money. Talk about fascinating !!

          • racerrodig says:

            True that but I think MMP’s stamps aren’t quite trash.

    • racerrodig says:

      How funny that one complete nut recognizes what crime another complete nut committed.

      It’s like this …A man has a flat tire in the pouring cold rain in front of an insane asylum. While changing the tire the man knocks all 5 lug nuts down the storm drain. He begins cursing and bitching about having to get a tow truck in the middle of the night.

      From a curbside window one one of the inmates says he knows how to fix the problem at which the man in distress berates him. The inmate ignores the insults and says take one lug nut from the other 3 wheels and that will get you home. The man with the flat tire looks at him in disbelief and says why should I take advice from you……….look where you are.

      The inmate then says……….They say I’m crazy…….not stupid.

      • I see many similarities between the inmate and myself 🙂

        • racerrodig says:

          I go down that road myself sometimes. A funny one that I say often as I have taught many of my customers how to win rounds in drag racing. After years of utter futility most take my advice about the mental approach. My round win % is just over 80%. However sometimes the tail thinks it will “…wag the dog…”

          When I have to run one of my customers / friends I always change my routine which throws them off. When they come over to my trailer and start groaning I say “…remember I taught you everything you know about racing………….I didn’t teach you everything I know about racing” which always leaves them scratching their heads.

          Crazy……………..but not stupid !!

          • Kind of the same way I look at and deal with life….I try not to let people know how intelligent I actually am………People for the most part are inherently lazy……If one is going to try and run game on you?…….they’ll only expend as much energy & effort as they think is needed based on their impression of you…..which in turn makes it much easier for you to catch the game early.

            One of the reasons I’ve always liked Rat Rods :)…….paint & chrome don’t equal horsepower 🙂

            EXACTLY what I did in the current civil case we having going with someone we contracted to sell some collectables for us…..Their impression?……..My mate is a naive old lady….and I’m a stumbling drunk…….HA……..Gonna hand them their asses in court….burnt thru 3 ink cartridges printing out evidence of them running 2 sets of books…..Paying us for items with statements and dates prior to the actual date of sale…They claim the items were abandoned Dec 15th….yet they were still paying us for items sold after that date……one of their statement shows date of sale as Dec 11th….when it was actually Dec 31st…..and it’s all printed out…The list goes on……..Yeah….I’m a stumbling drunk 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Keep me up to date on your civil case if you don’t mind. I do expert Consumer Fraud reports and testify for civil auto cases and I’m always looking to learn.

            I do a lot of Mortgage Fraud stuff as we were victimized badly and have a Federal suit against the worst of them now.

            “One of the reasons I’ve always liked Rat Rods :)…….paint & chrome don’t equal horsepower 🙂 ”

            I have been swamped with Rat Rod stuff lately. That’s the latest rage !!

          • Leave the rust and dents…..don’t bother with the flaking chrome….OH and leave that piece of bailing wire holding the rear bumper up…..now how do we increase this to 1100HP? 🙂

          • cielo62 says:

            Uh…Mountain Man? At 1100 HP, your tail WILL fall off! At least secure the bumper first!

          • OK OK…..wrap the bumper with a piece of re bar….tack welded….that should give a good Redneck appearance 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            I have a customer that builds rods of all types and has an award winning rat rod. He won’t touch a motor or trans but I have never seen anyone as clever with the junk that becomes something functional. Holy Smokes. I’ll have to get some pic’s and get them to you. You’d just love this car.

          • Just made a back scratcher for my grandson out of a Deer jaw bone and a stick…..wood burnt his name into it….just put the finish coat of polyurethane on it tonight 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Really, that sounds like a Kool thing to have. How much to make me one ????

          • See if the Prof. can put us in touch with each other via e-mail?

          • racerrodig says:

            I’ll ask the Professor to give you my e-mail address.

            [mission accomplished]

          • cielo62 says:

            LOL! That’s quite a visual there!  Try this   http://www.youtube.com/embed/K-34Fdtg1dI  (there’s a few naughty words, but I think you can handle it!)  

          • racerrodig says:

            Wow !! Adam Sandler does Bob Marley…..way cool !

          • cielo62 says:

            I’ve never owned a POS car, but this song made me laugh!The visuals are quite striking!

          • racerrodig says:

            I never saw that one before but I loved it !!

          • I practically know the song by heart……funny as hell…..Have You seen Dinosaur Rap by WKUK?

          • cielo62 says:

            MMP~ Not yet! 🙂  Glad to see that you like that song, too!

  19. SearchingMind says:

    Typo:

    – “Xena said (be IT not directly in response to PYorck):

    – Wouldn’t the answer to that question not only force anyone not to believe whatever else The Butcher has to say…

    BTW, PYorck, ich habe mein herz in Heidelberg verloren.

  20. SearchingMind says:

    @ PYorck, Xena, and ALL

    In the last tread Pyorck and Xema said something I thought is very relevant in the equation of untangling the thick web of lies knitted by the Butcher of Sanford. I was also amazed by how the GPS on Pyorck’s telephone tracked and recorded his exact movements.

    Pyorck said:

    “This is an example that shows what is possible with a normal smart phone. http://schuering.it/wpcontent/uploads/2009/10/myTracksMain.png I have made tracks like that myself, but unfortunately they all show my home address a bit too clearly for comfort. Btw. my phone is very close to Trayvon’s in age and capabilities.
    However the phone in the link was set to record the track in advance. Because of that it checked the position more frequently than it would have during normal operation.
    The open question is really the number of measurements and not so much the accuracy of each one.”

    Xena said (be not directly in response to PYorck):

    “Remembering what Dave and Taaffe talked about in Dave’s video, the FBI believes that Trayvon entered the gated community through a route other than the one by Frank’s house. The FBI would not say that for nothing”.

    If I am not mistaken, Trayvon had an android based phone. Such telephones have built-in app called “mytracks” that uses google maps to track bearers routes, average speed, top speed, elevation changes, etc. PYorck pointed out that you have to hit the record-button to get the kind of data he linked. Placing Xena’s and PYorck’s post side by side, one would have to come to the following conclusions:(a) Trayvon’s phone was set to track and record the bearer’s routes, average speed, top speed, elevation changes, etc. OR (b), the standard setting on his phone automatically does that and Trayvon did not change that setting OR (c) the “mytracks-app” can be activated ex post and the bearer’s route, etc. retroactively traced/tracked (if the phone was not set to record).

    What are the possibilities?

    If it can be established beyond reasonable doubt that Trayvon took an utterly different route than the one describe by The Butcher of Sanford to (a) the police-dispatcher and thereafter to investigators, one would be left wondering why he found it necessary to wrong-foot/misdirect the cops who were responding to his NEN-calls by deliberately feeding wrong information to the police-dispatcher. Wouldn’t the answer to that question not only force anyone not to believe whatever else Butcher has to say, BUT also establish premeditation and result to a First Degree Murder?

    • Cercando Luce says:

      About the phone: kids’ cell phones are often lost/stolen. A kid technically in the know (to judge from all Trayvon’s photos in front of his webcam, he was) will activate the GPS so that he has a chance to retrieve his phone if lost or stolen. I think Trayvon’s GPS was ON.

    • Xena says:

      @SearchingMind. Regarding Trayvon’s cell phone tracking, I am no expert on pings and GPS. In Dave’s video where he and Taaffe discuss that the FBI said Trayvon entered the gated community using a route other than by Taaffe’s house, that is good enough for me.

      On GZ’s NEN call, the only location he gave for Trayvon was by the clubhouse. Although he previously said that Trayvon was walking, looking at the house, GZ gave no location as to where Trayvon was purportedly doing that.

      In GZ’s subsequent statements to police, he pointed out Taaffe’s house and associated it with his call on 2/2/12, as though to take credit for stopping a “break-in,” although Taaffe’s door and windows were unsecured. IMO, GZ did that in effort to give credibility for why he profiled Trayvon as suspicious.

      In essence, once it is proven that Trayvon did not enter that community by Taaffe’s house, it gives reason to remove the suspicion that GZ alleged.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Not only does it remove suspicion from Trayvon Martin, but it places additional suspicion on GZ. Given his penchant for lying, it comes as no surprise that he would want to make Trayvon appear to be as reprehensible as possible to the police. The fact that he’s is doing this by lying profusely creates terrible suspicions about his motives, most especially in light of what has occurred.

    • esentrick says:

      Wow impressive SearchingMind! I would most certainly believe beyond a reasonable doubt that his actions were premeditated. Good catch SearchingMind, Xena, and PYorck!

    • aussie says:

      Where Trayvon actually entered from is not relevant (except as further proof GZ was lying, but that is pretty well proven already).

      If he says he first saw him at the mailboxes, he can’t claim he was acting suspicious by looking at/into houses. So he has to say he first saw him elsewhere. Up near Taafe’s place is god because
      * it is on the most sensible route from GZ’s place to the gate, to go shopping
      * he had an incident there before, which he re-tells trying to make it sound like that’s what he saw Trayvon doing (ie saves him making up a whole new story).

      He then decides to ignore Trayvon until Trayvon passes him in the parking lot, this being to deny any suggestion of car-to-pedestrian following.

      The NEN operator etc were not misdirected by this at all, as he only brought this up at the re-enactment. On the NEN call he was talking “clubhouse” which is were he and Trayvon both were at the time, then “running”.

      The ONLY relevance of where Trayvon came in can be to who may have tipped off GZ, if he was tipped off by someone inside the estate. For this we’d need to have GZ’s incoming phone records.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I’m going to guess that those three boys who met TM at the 711 (probably the Burgess Crew sans Burgess) were the one’s who lured TM on this walk to the store. Who put them up to it is anyone’s guess, but my guess is they’re the one’s who informed GZ, and kept watch on TM.

        Realize that by time GZ leaves home, under ordinary circumstance he’d have miss TM by a mile. If TM had not stopped to shelter from the rain, he’d have been home before GZ even got into his truck.

        This is probably why, when GZ doesn’t see TM on his first pass through the area, he figures he’s missed him and turns away, only to get a call that; “Hey go back, he’s still there at the mailboxes.” GZ turns around and on his second pass he spots him.

        I’m also thinking that one of these guys is “white tee shirt”, and one of them is the runner. we’ll see.

  21. leander22 says:

    Reality check:

    Donations to the Zimmerman Defense Fund Increase

    Since the Court denied the defense team’s MOTION TO CONTINUE, donations to the Zimmerman Legal Defense Fund Trust have been on the rise. In the last 24 hours the fund has taken in more than $11,000. That means that we’ve raised a little more than $18,000 since we relaunched the GZDefenseFund.com website last week.

    • Xena says:

      With another $10,000, they can pay AIS.

      • SearchingMind says:

        HA! That’s a good one, Xena. The Butcher of Sanford is really in a mountain of troubles. I think this guy is heading for indigence.

        Sidebar: I have the unsettling feeling that Zimmerman Jr. and Hannity are trying to pull POTUS into the equation to instigate and increase racial strife and raise money. I think attorney Crump and his team should begin to highlight this now before it takes a life of its own and more difficult to fight effectively .

        • Xena says:

          @SearchingMind

          That’s a good one, Xena. The Butcher of Sanford is really in a mountain of troubles. I think this guy is heading for indigence.

          Well, since he has lived off the money of others for almost a year now, he is already a pauper.

          When I researched rates for extended stay hotels in Seminole County, I estimated that GZ is paying close to $4,000 per month. He’s paying another $3,000 or so per month for security. The estimated $7,000 per month does not include food, laundry, personal hygiene. Unless ShelLIE has lost 50 lbs or more, she and GZ probably go through a bottle of body wash after 3 showers.

          The $18,000 will cover his living expenses for about 2 months. If O’Mara pays for depositions from that amount, it won’t be long before the money is exhausted.

          Sidebar: I have the unsettling feeling that Zimmerman Jr. and Hannity are trying to pull POTUS into the equation to instigate and increase racial strife and raise money. I think attorney Crump and his team should begin to highlight this now before it takes a life of its own and more difficult to fight effectively .

          Not to worry. The Secret Service is no doubt watching very closely. If President Obama should be hit with a rock, Junior had better hope that the person throwing it doesn’t accuse him of promoting violence.

          • racerrodig says:

            i seriously doubt the 18k BS. Last month they bragged they collected 5200 in one day. Notice the timing.

            Get your ass whooped in Court………………..brag about donations

            Shit falls apart……………brag about donations

            Prosecution releases new damning evidence brag about donations

            I for one, ain’t buying it. I believe it’s a ploy to get the Zidiots to feel they are “…with a winner…” since all those who donate, can’t be wrong now.

          • Xena says:

            @raccerrodig. The boasting about how much money comes in could be a ploy as you say, but anything less than a million is a disappointment to O’Mara. Anything less than $30,000 per month does not reach his monthly goal. Looks like he’ll need to call his wife as an expert witness. (snark)

          • racerrodig says:

            I’ll take “Lying criminals looking for sympathy” for $ 5,000.00 Alex.

          • blushedbrown says:

            @Xena

            HA! I wonder how she will charge for expert testimony, this question is totally relevant to the case. (snarK)

          • racerrodig says:

            “….Ahahahahaha.. experts…….experts…..we don’t need no stinking experts………A hahahahahaha………….”

          • blushedbrown says:

            @Racer,

            You crack me up Racer!

          • racerrodig says:

            That’s what we do here at “Team Trayvon” This senseless tragedy has brought a lot of people together for a real purpose. It is good in a way that we can have lighter moments as FogenPhoolesPhuckingPhamily deserves every remark we make.

            Think about this for a second when we talk about this crime, the aftermath, the lies, the attacks on Trayvon, Dee Dee, Crump, his parents and all that. All of it…………lies.

            Now, picture Fogen thinking he’s “Da Man” Frank “The Racist Tank” Taaffe, Joe “Rent a Friend” Oliver, Mark “They call me the Token White Friend” Osterman, SheLie, O’ Mara, RZ Jr. and all the rest. How many people do you know like them and if you know any, how long do you stay friends with them?????

            I’m betting none and if so not very long, just from what I can read into your character on here.

            Would you be proud to know them or embarrassed ??

            Now I’ve been saying this since April or May of last year. I’m a 57 year old white male gun owner and would be proud to have known Trayvon. My 14 year old son has friends like Trayvon and my son would be happy to have him in his band, his circle of friends. Likewise his parents. They look to be good honest hardworking people NO MATTER WHAT RACE THEY ARE. We as a family would love to have them for BBQ parties, swim and have fun. We have friends and neighbors of all races, religions and ethnic backgrounds. My grandfather always told me the only thing on this planet is people.

            FogenPhoole isn’t even in the same book let alone the same page. Who, other than those who have a racist agenda would admit being a friend of his. I’d have changed my last name by now.

          • My kind of man Race….in the straight sense only…

            Seems you & I share a lot of the same viewpoints and outlooks on life.

          • racerrodig says:

            Thanks, I kind of picked that up about a week or so ago.

          • BTW

            64,396,293 Gun owners DID NOT kill anyone today

          • racerrodig says:

            I was number 63,398,104 of that number by the way.

          • cielo62 says:

            racerrodig~ You inspire me, even as you make me laugh! Indeed, all we have is people. I really like that. Your grandfather was wise and before his time.

          • racerrodig says:

            I really miss that guy, that’s for sure. He told me that all there is on this planet is people. If there was a plague and only you survived, you could have the biggest mansion, drive the best cars and own the most expensive jewelry……..and then what ?? In 2 months you wish you hadn’t survived.

            I think about this tragedy and have to remind myself a real tragedy is an auto accident or the like. This is a hate crime to me and should be addressed as such.

            It is surely a blessing that the Professor has this site and we can learn without the Zidiot Nation spewing hate filled filth on us. I can say we have all made “friends” here in support of a great cause. I think about this a lot as I have a 14 year old son, along with his friends, who could be the next victims of a Fogen. My sons friends all gravitate here because he and I have a very close relationship and almost all of his friends are from broken homes. I have no problem being “dad” to all of them as all of them take an interest in this as well.

            Anyway…..I have that open BBQ invitation to all on “Team Trayvon” when FogenPhoole is convicted.

          • blushedbrown says:

            @Racer,
            >>>>That’s what we do here at “Team Trayvon” This senseless tragedy has brought a lot of people together for a real purpose.

            You are a 1000% correct. It was Tracey Martin and Sabrina Fulton’s public plea for Justice. Their outcry for the injustice done to Trayvon Martin, Jordon Davis and others that met their death at the hands of another with a gun, then claiming self defense. We answered as one voice and said, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! The killing must stop. Law Enforcement and other agencies must do their jobs, equally to all. No one should be afforded the right to be handed back their CCW permit and leave the station with no more then a backward glance. NO ONE! Due process did not happen! Through investigation did not happen until it was pushed. More injustice done. When did the rights of an admiited killer supercede the rights of the victim? When did a gun a inanimate object supercede the right to life? People talk about George’s rights. Yes, we all understand that he has a right to a fair trail. Yes he has a right to discovery. Yes he has a right to have a vigorous defense.

            That doesn’t mean he has a right to be part of the human race any more. He has made a decision out of fear of young black males, to follow confront and kill Trayvon Martin. Because of his own demons. Because of his own lack of understanding. Because of his ego. Because of his stupidity, a young man is dead. For what? To stroke his fantasies. To show his wife he’s the man. For what? For what?!!!!

            >>>> I’m betting none and if so not very long, just from what I can read into your character on here.

            Would you be proud to know them or embarrassed ??

            The answer is NO! I would not be proud to know them. I wouldn’t even be embarassed. If I knew them I would tell them exactly how I felt, that I think/know you killed him and didn’t think twice about it.
            I would not assoicate with the kind of people they are.

            Trayvon looked just like my son at his age. I’ve had many adoptive “sons” over the years that looked like Trayvon. Trayvon and his family would of definitely been to my house, for sure. I have had relationships with all types of people. But not one of them were like the Zimmermans.

          • cielo62 says:

            blushedbrown~ you are so awesome! I’ve never had kids (of my own) but I’ve taught for 20 some years. ANY of my “kids” could be the victim of a fogen somewhere. We are ALL “People of Color”, but only racist whites are scared of that truth.

          • racerrodig says:

            “We are ALL “People of Color”, but only racist whites are scared of that truth.”

            As a 57 year old white male, I could not agree more. For the life of me I just can’t see why people see color as a means to judge.

            There are many people that look one way are 180 degree’s the opposite. I have customers that walk in and look dirt poor. They ask about getting a race engine built or some high dollar work done and I think, “…like you can afford it..” but I never say anything that would be taken that way. I just offer every option there is and 98% of the time the dirt poor looking guy lays down a large deposit and just says, “…Okay, when can you start and how long will it take..” Many of these guys become friends.

            Never Judge…….never.

          • blushedbrown says:

            @cielo62

            Thank you cielo62. I know you are awesome too! We love kids! No matter if they belong to us biologically or not. We both have that in common. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Very well said and some of that would be a great opening statement in court.

            “To stroke his fantasies” Exactly !! I can see him acting out the part of a cop, both hands on his gun as if going from room to room like any TV cop with that stiff arm up then straight out thinking to himself “..if only I could yell “..clear..” to my partner” as he goes from one building to the next that night.

          • blushedbrown says:

            @Racer

            >>>Very well said and some of that would be a great opening statement in court.

            Awww, Racer, you are making me blush. 😳

            “To stroke his fantasies” Exactly !! I can see him acting out the part of a cop, both hands on his gun as if going from room to room like any TV cop with that stiff arm up then straight out thinking to himself “..if only I could yell “..clear..” to my partner” as he goes from one building to the next that night

            What about a part for Shellie? She and him acting out parts. She prolly is pegged as the suspect, always.

          • racerrodig says:

            I think SheLie eggs him on. I can see her yacking at him and getting him riled up and then he gets that “..I’ll show you..” thing up and out he goes to prove how tough he is.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. Well, BDLR did say that he doesn’t know what the defense needs expert witnesses for, which is another way of saying they won’t be able to find any expert witnesses to refute the State’s experts.

          • racerrodig says:

            FogenPhoole expert witness (FPew) “…..um, that is this particular gun, the Kel-Tek P9 has some peculiarties”

            BDLR (on cross) “Exactly what and how does that affect what happened”

            FPew “Well, in some cases, because the weapon has no safety, this can result in an inadvertant discharge”

            BDLR “Again, how does that change what happened, as an expert, why do you say that”

            FPew “I believe that’s what happened, the gun “just went off” ”

            BDLR “You stated that you are a firearms expert and that’s what you think happened?”

            FPew “Sure, it’s entirely possible”

            BDLR “Sir………………..(long pause)…..are you aware that the defendant said he drew his gun, AIMED and fired one shot !”

            FPew “……..(pointing at Fogen)………………he told me to say it ! it was his idea………I didn’t want………..”

            O’ Mara “Objection…your honor”

            Judge Nelson “Overruled….this is getting good”

            FPew “…..it was all his idea and they were gonna pay me……”

            O’ Mara “I object your honor”

            Judge Nelson “Why…..didn’t you ever see “And Justice For All”

            Fogen (under his breath) “Phuuuuuuuuuuuuuck me”

            O’ Mara (whispering to West) “I just knew it……my client should go
            straight to fucking hell”

            Coming to a Theater Near You !!!

          • cielo62 says:

            LOL! I’d pay to see that! It’s a comedy, right?

          • racerrodig says:

            I’ll start writing the script from the start 1st thing tomorrow.

          • blushedbrown says:

            @Racer,

            Berry Bonkers Hawaiian Drink all over the screen!
            You owe me a more monitor wipes!

          • racerrodig says:

            Well, in all fairness, that makes up for the sore ribs you gave me from laughing so hard the other day.

            I’ll get the wipes in the mail Monday……sorry, My Bad.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            O’Mara’s searching the treehouse for experts Haw! 😆

            ===================================
            Justice for Trayvon is Coming: |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||
            ===================================

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Oh look mom a herd of Snarkolosauri just went by. 😆

          • racerrodig says:

            At full gallop or skipping ???????? And what was their deal??

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I don’t know what their deal is but they had their trunks in their waist bands…
            |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

          • racerrodig says:

            That would make them suspicious AND dangerous.

            III=> Tick Tock <=III

      • Jun says:

        $18,000

        I am gonna bet that the defendant will greedily spend it on himself again and Omara will spend money on “office equipment” LOL

      • kimmi says:

        Even if they got another 10K, I would be suprised if they did.

        • Xena says:

          @kimmi. Another $10,000 might trickle in over the next 3 months, but along with GZ’s living expenses AND ShelLIE’s lawyer’s fees, it won’t be enough to cover costs for depositions and expert witnesses. With $18,000, O’Mara needs to dissolve that trust fund, file for GZ to be declared indigent allowing him to use the $18,000 for his living expenses, and get on with what is needed to go to trial.

    • Eric says:

      Okay, now he has more twinkie money.

      • Jun says:

        I think Omara is gonna be smarter this time, and make sure Fogenhats does not get a dime out of it this time LOL Otherwise he and West will get stiffed by the defendant, like he has done others in the past

      • whonoze says:

        Alas, Hostess went under. No more Twinkies. But GZ now has a budget for at least a week of Moon Pies and Dr. Pepper.

    • Jun says:

      Considering Junior has his gang of about 1500 people, they prolly donated about $10 or more each

      Oh well, either way, someone else besides Fogenhats has to pay for it

      I gotta say, I have never seen anyone with a gang of people slander a dead person and lie and BS so hard for a defendant or go so hard against a dead kid

      I gotta say the former cases where Corey had to debate someone wanting to use the SYG defense, the defendants have both went to the media telling BS and then in trial, it turned out to be lies from the defendant, ie the Marissa and the old white guy cases…

    • cielo62 says:

      And that gets him… What? One cracked “expert” some more nights at the Motel 6 and a bag of chips. Big deal.

      Sent from my iPod

  22. seallison says:

    Has anyone read Chris Dorners Manifesto — please do if you have not. He has a personal special message directly to George Zimmerman. I am just wondering what Junior is going to say about that.

    • seallison says:

      Christopher Dormer regarding George Zimmerman:

      If you continuously followed me while I was walking at dusk/night I would confront you as well. Too bad Trayvon didn’t smash your skull completely open, Zim. While Trayvon’s body erodes to bones 6 feet under, Zimmerman has put on no less than 40 pounds while out on bail. Zimmerman was arrested for battery on a Peace officer and avoided jail/prison because he completed a diversion program. Thats a history of being an asshole.

      Read more: http://globalgrind.com/news/ex-lapd-cop-killer-christopher-dorners-manifesto-quotes-about-photos#ixzz2KHLJDLSo

      • @Seal….

        Just read the link of 25 parts of his manifesto…..

        His actions are wrong….dead wrong…

        Yet what he states in is manifesto? I agree with most all is not all of what he has to say….from his taste in music…….to his belief in an assault weapons ban……..I could go on….

        VERY sad he has chosen the route he has….and that innocents are dying.

        Did you read the report where LAPD shot 2 women in a truck similar to his….LAPD & their sheriffs dept. are the worst I’ve met in the country. There’s another lawsuit for the LAPD…..gun happy cowboys.

        He also killed a Riverside PD officer…..someone I may have known, as that was where I lived before moving to Co.

        One of my gigs there was training RPD in crisis intervention.

        Even though I believe in many of the things he does…

        HIS ACTIONS ARE WRONG

        HE DOES NEED TO BE STOPPED

    • Jun says:

      Junior could not even accept the fact that Fogenhats shot a kid, let alone stalk or follow or pursue and chase a kid

      All Piers asked him was if he could at least accept that if not for Fogenats’ gun, the victim would still be alive… Piers did not say anything about who was right or wrong, just that Fogenhats’ killed the kid with a gun… Junior could not even accept that and went on about an imaginary head bashing…

      Knowing Junior, he’s just gonna not accept anything else except for Fogenhats’ lies… Fogenhats could tell him Michael Jordan is a white man, and Junior would accept that as fact

    • I need to edit my comment on Chris Dorner…

      “Even though I believe in many of the things he does…”

      Should be

      “Even though I believe in many of the things he does believe…”

      IN NO WAY AM I CONDONING, NOR SUPPORT HIS ACTIONS

    • cielo62 says:

      The manifesto copy I read didn’t mention anything about GZ, although I found his comments funny. I feel sorry that he ended up this way. I wonder why he snapped?   BTW, if you have a link that does include that reference, please upload it. Too many sites cut things down.  😦

  23. blushedbrown says:

    @Racer
    I am going to sleep on it and answer in the morning.

    Night all……..

  24. Jun says:

    Zimmernuts has become a potted plant literally… blank stares and zipped lips…

    Its obvious to most people, except for a few Junior’s gang members, is Fogenhats is lying to cover up what he did, which was target stalk threaten confront attack kill an unarmed kid, who never even attacked the defendant in self defense and all he could do was yell for help, scream for mercy, and ask for his mother… the defendant showed no mercy and took his life and staged his whole self defense thing because that is all he could do…

    • cielo62 says:

      Jun~ Do you think that maybe GZ is on some medication? If it’s true he has ADHD, IBS, stress and anxiety and who know what else, that he could be doped up to be calm?

  25. cielo62 says:

    Whiskers drooping but still here… ξ^–^ς

  26. colin black says:

    Melroy
    That photo of M O M an foggen…??? In the link you posted above.
    foggen is going for a quadruple chin an either M O M is sucking a lemmon or he has misslayed his false teeth.

  27. colin black says:

    Yup not only does foggen fruenen slip with his tale at the T dureing the reconsstruction vt.
    Momentery sipping an saying I put my hands over his mouth.
    Stops an starts again he put his hands over my mouth.
    But like in LMPappas vt he demonstrates by putting his hands up to cover his SWOLLEN SORE? nose.
    So not only is he telling us with his words he was the one doing the smothering.
    He is also demonstrateing with his actions his hands were the smothering hands.
    If you wanted to demonstrate how an attacker above you was smothering you.
    You would hold your arms an hands doward to show what had ocoured.
    And also keep your hands away from your possibly undeieably pinichico nose.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      I am totally convinced that Fogen is the one that was suffocating Trayvon that night.

      My son was in a fight last summer, I just asked him if he was punched in the head or face during that fight. He said he was punched in the head a couple of times, so I asked him to show me how the kid punched him in the head…my son made a fist and brought it up to HIS head to show me how he was punched by this other kid. He did not pretend to be the other kid punching an imaginary self in front of him. I then asked him to show me how this kid would have suffocated him if he had…my son did the same thing…he put his hand over his own mouth and nose. Note: His “hand” not “hands”. I then asked him to show me how he hit the kid…low and behold, he now air punched the imaginary kid in front of him. My son is 17.

      • ay2z says:

        Makes sense, he did change his demo technique an hour or two later down at the station as caught by LLMPapa, maybe he figured his mistake and corrected it during the ‘truth exam’.

        What did the shooter say about the suffocation scenario– that all he could think about was getting his hands off because he wanted the PAIN to stop? And you are unable to breathe, which kicks in your survival instincts first, unable to draw another breath, or adrenalin mitigated pain?

    • leander22 says:

      You would hold your arms an hands doward to show what had ocoured.

      LLMPapa is brilliant in capturing these moments. He is very, very good in focusing attention. But if I get this correctly. Yes absolutely. If you demonstrate something someone did you you cannot be the same person at the same time in other words the attacker and the attacked. You would make a gesture forward you would be more likely to cover with your hands an imaginary head in front of you.

      The video is not good enough. But I seem to see a tiny interrupted movement at the point he says “my nose”. It is almost as if he was going to hold his nose or peg it. But I may be fantasizing.

  28. MelRoy says:

    This is an interesting perspective, because of the speaker.

    When Jose Baez wasn’t available, Zimmerman twice tried to hire Mark NeJame (Tiger Woods’ lawyer). NeJame twice turned the job down and recommended Mark O’Mara.

    NeJame had, prior to this, always spoken very positively of Zimmerman’s chances. Not anymore.

    http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/2/6/what_s_next_for_geor.html?cid=rss

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Thanks for the link, MelRoy. That Nejame isn’t positive about Fogen’s case any more says a lot.

    • kimmi says:

      Thank you for the link. MOM looks very angry in the picture!
      I bet NeJame was GLAD he couldn’t take the case due to conflict of interest. I wonder how he feels now that he recommended MOM for the job? I wonder how MOM feels about NeJame these days…
      Interesting to think about, hehe

    • Rachael says:

      Oh I like that!

    • seallison says:

      Love that photo! When I looked at GZ, I thought of a caption for the photo:

      Oh sorry, Mark, I feel another gas bubble brewing. Shouldna had burritos for breakfast, I guess.

      • racerrodig says:

        That’s kinda what I was thinking…..

        “…..God I hope Mark doesn’t smell that….”

        and Markie’s thinking “…..pig…”

  29. Didn’t like it there anyway with the likes of kramp, cartman, oger, steve and the rest……Argue with you all day the Earth is flat no matter what proof you show them………

    cartman was the pits tho…..ALL their typo’s were a result of the computer error’s and not their own bad spelling……..That is beyond stupid if they think anyone’s gonna believe it !!!!!!!!!!!!!

  30. degraveegmailcom says:

    @YAHTC yes thanks I meant Deedee.

  31. I believe fogen is still employable…..

    He worked as a bouncer before….

    I’ll bet he bounces real good now 😉

  32. Elizabeth De Grave says:

    The defense would grasp at anything to make w18 seem unreliable!
    In a Nancy Grace interview Trayvons cousin says he met her at the funeral.I think they might have that up their sleeve.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Thanks for the link, Elizabeth!

      I know you meant to say Deedee. [Witness 18 is the school teacher.]

    • Jun says:

      Its a lil unclear but in the interview she said

      “I wanted to go but then I did not feel well…”

    • Xena says:

      In a Nancy Grace interview Trayvons cousin says he met her at the funeral.I think they might have that up their sleeve.

      There is so much cultural misunderstandings and semantics played by the Zidiots that it’s sickening. At one point, it was said that DeeDee was unable to attend the wake. Then it was the memorial service. Then it was the funeral. I wish they would make up their minds.

      In Black culture, wakes are not always conducted the day of the funeral. That in fact, most are held the evening before the funeral. There is also visitation and visitations consist of going to the funeral home when there is no formal service, such as the wake or funeral.

      Funerals are the formal services, and does not necessarily mean that the body is taken to the cemetery immediately thereafter. That in fact, burials can be conducted the following day after the funeral.

      Funerals often include the “repast” where people meet at homes of relatives of the deceased.

      Not all friends and family who attend one function attend them all. Many people who cannot withstand the emotional strain of the wake, funeral and burial, still attend the “funeral repast” where they pay their respects to the family of the deceased.

    • Jun says:

      Okay I just did the math

      That is actually hearsay so Omara can’t even use it anyways

  33. This was comment before the last one..it didn’t post.

    hinkster4ever says:
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    February 7, 2013 at 5:43 pm
    Have not commented in a very long time, but still read daily . In the past 5-10 years the legal community has become an intricate factor in cyber bullying. I do not read at the “outhouse” as it is called here, but have two things to say. One is I predict that it is being followed by quite a few attorney’s very knowledgeable in cyber slander and bullying. And, those who defame the family and friends of Trayvon can be prosecuted.

    Facebook does release your information to attorneys.

    https://www.facebook.com/safety/groups/law/guidelines/

    And people do sue and get compensation:

    http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/internet-privacy-not-so-private-in-court/nQpsL/

    And a very interesting read here:

    http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/ga-man-awarded-404000-for-libelous-internet-postin/nQpsB/

    Great job professor

    • Welcome back.

      Your comment went into moderation automatically because you had more than one link in it.

    • Xena says:

      @hinkster4ever.

      Facebook does release your information to attorneys.

      https://www.facebook.com/safety/groups/law/guidelines/

      Note the title of the page; “Information for Law Enforcement Authorities.”

      “These operational guidelines are for law enforcement officials seeking records from Facebook. For private party requests, including requests from civil litigants and criminal defendants, visit: facebook.com/help/?page=1057. ”

      Yes, in a case involving criminal activity, FB releases certain information upon subpoena, and certain other information pursuant to an order of a federal court, but only to law enforcement officials.

      GZ is a “criminal defendant” and FB does not release information about the accounts of others to criminal defendants.

      • @Zena, I meant to convey that IF you used your FB account to slander/libel someone, FB would release your private information to legal authorities in a legal case. That’s why I put up the link to the law guidelines from FB.

        The horrific attacks on the character of Trayvon, his family, and Dee Dee is beyond immoral. I expect to see some of these haters exposed through legal means before all this is over. I just do not think that the black leaders will let this fly past the radar without doing something to show that hatred spewed forth from behind a computer screen can bring you down.

        🙂 I’ll go back to just reading now.

        • Xena says:

          @hinkster4ever

          @Zena, I meant to convey that IF you used your FB account to slander/libel someone, FB would release your private information to legal authorities in a legal case. That’s why I put up the link to the law guidelines from FB.

          Sorry if I sounded as if I was disagreeing with you. My attempt was to clarify. According to their TOS, FB does not release account information in civil cases. Generally, in order for the plaintiff to know that a person has posted defamatory and/or demeaning material on FB, or harassed them using that media, they will need to have read it. A print-out in a civil case with motion to admit the authenticity generally serves the purpose of discovery.

          In a criminal action, FB does honor subpoenas issued by authorized law enforcement.

          The horrific attacks on the character of Trayvon, his family, and Dee Dee is beyond immoral.

          Indeed.

          I expect to see some of these haters exposed through legal means before all this is over.

          More than likely, it might be criminal charges for witness intimidation and doxing, both of which is illegal.

          I just do not think that the black leaders will let this fly past the radar without doing something to show that hatred spewed forth from behind a computer screen can bring you down.

          Zidiots do not know the difference between voicing opinion that is hateful and hate-speech — but they might learn before this is over with.

      • 2dogsonly says:

        “They are prohibited by Federal Law from releasing info in civil cases. DD is civil.

        • Xena says:

          @2dogsonly

          “They are prohibited by Federal Law from releasing info in civil cases. DD is civil.

          BINGO! While it’s a criminal case, DeeDee is not a party and FB does not release information about the accounts of others to defendants. If only everyone can get on the same page of this as a fact, then the what if’s of what that media might contain is a false hypothesis and doesn’t mean a hill of beans. Thank you, 2dogsonly. Thank you.

  34. leander22 says:

    Thanks a lot, powerful article on a very important subject.

    My absolute gratitude also goes to Lonnie for triggering the subject.

    To be quite honest, if I do not simply book the treesitters under loud mouth braggarts, it suggests intentions beyond intimidation to me. Which makes the early reaction of the family to not report anything to police much more easy to understand. …

    Considering that Fogen gets all the information, what does that mean? To get rid of DeeDee must be his ideal scenario. With God’s help?

    I surely can understand the attempts by state to keep her biographical details secret. … By now Nelson has only agreed for deposition limited to her social networks data. It feels for a second deposition she needs to be automatically involved. Since Florida only allows one as a standard. For another one a motion has to be filed. At least that was the case with the second deposition of William Erwin.

    Thanks a lot Professor, thanks a lot Lonnie.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Wow … Broward County circuit, adjacent to Dade/Miami. Fogen Followers should take note wherever they are …

    • Xena says:

      @hinkster4ever. Thanks for the link. There are more recent cases also. What those using the internet to abuse, harass, demean and defame others do not generally understand, is that although they don’t have money to pay court ordered judgments, their credit can be messed up for life. Those judgments are recorded with credit reporting agencies. Liens can be placed on property. Some employment background checks might contain civil judgments as well.

  35. kimmi says:

    Ugh! Will Jr ever shut up??
    “Catch me LIVE on FOXNews’ Geraldo-At-Large 10PM EST: This SAT Feb 9… #Zimmerman”

    Professor, can the prosecution use any of Jr statements that don’t ‘jive’ with Fogen’s testimony?
    Or would that be inadmissable hearsay? Thanks.

    • They would have to call him as a witness and impeach him with the prior inconsistent statement, if his testimony conflicts with it.

      Of course, it would have to be about a matter at issue in the trial or it would not be relevant.

      • kimmi says:

        Thank you!

      • lurker says:

        Certainly makes him a nice pet to have, then doesn’t it? He can say just about anything to the public.

      • kimmi says:

        I was catching up on some of the later posts I missed.
        I didn’t ask that question quite how I meant…

        I was thinking more along the lines of using Jr’s statements like the prosecution has Osterman and Taffee’s statements, (i.e. George was being beaten so bad that “he would be in diapers and would need to be spoon-fed” by Jr for the rest of his (miserable) life comment). I need to proof what I type better, so what I want to say comes out like I type!

    • Jun says:

      Junior’s testimony is all hearsay and lies anyways, so I do not see the point

      LOL

      • kimmi says:

        What I don’t understand then, is why does the prosecution list Taffee and Osterman? Wouldn’t they be basically in the same boat as Jr? Other than Osterman’s book, which could state (I haven’t read it) George told me…(but then, isn’t that hearsay as well?) I’m a newbie, learning so much, and still so much to learn!

  36. Have not commented in a very long time, but still read daily :). In the past 5-10 years the legal community has become an intricate factor in cyber bullying. I do not read at the “outhouse” as it is called here, but have two things to say. One is I predict that it is being followed by quite a few attorney’s very knowledgeable in cyber slander and bullying. And, those who defame the family and friends of Trayvon can be prosecuted.

    Facebook does release your information to attorneys.

    https://www.facebook.com/safety/groups/law/guidelines/

    And people do sue and get compensation:

    http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/internet-privacy-not-so-private-in-court/nQpsL/

    And a very interesting read here:

    http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/ga-man-awarded-404000-for-libelous-internet-postin/nQpsB/

    Great job professor 🙂

    • blushedbrown says:

      Thanks for posting the last link was truly eye opening.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Eye-opening indeed in so many ways.

      For me, here’s one: “She admitted in court that she also had conversations with herself, posting her concerns on the site under one name and then agreeing with the posts under another persona.”

      Something I’ve witnessed several Fogen supporters doing on various sites.

    • 2dogsonly says:

      FB only releases in criminal. Prohibited by Fed. Law from releasing in civil. As DD is not being charged as a criminal, it would be a civil subpoena.
      I’ve asked this before “Is MOM the worst attorney ever”. No need to answer..rhetorical question.

      • racerrodig says:

        That’s why I have called him “Moron O’ Mara since about ohhhhhh
        August. (sorry Professor)

      • cielo62 says:

        2dogsonly~ actually, I think MOM did that as a sneaky way to appeal to his mob base while KNOWING that it won’t actually get him anything. It’s a neat little trick. Rick Perry here in Texas uses it all of the time. He makes promises he KNOWS either the TX consitution prohibit OR which he knows the folks in Austin won’t pass, and sure enough when his “big idea” gets shot down, IT’S NOT HIS FAULT! WOW!

    • kimmi says:

      Thank you LLMPapa, you are the best!

    • Rachael says:

      LOL – you are the BEST!!!!

    • ay2z says:

      hehe, you’re on a roll. It’s even in the report, along with the suggestion of a ‘closed fracture’. (did the assistand to the exam or the report without an exam? Maybe that’s cheaper?

      What does closed fracture mean in this situation, a prior injury from the dark ages that might pass for having occurred on Feb 26th? Technically the truth?

      This killer pllays word games fairly effectively, maybe he’s had a past injury and new ‘rays? (besides the ban-rays type of course)

      • PYorck says:

        What does closed fracture mean in this situation, a prior injury from the dark ages that might pass for having occurred on Feb 26th? Technically the truth?

        A closed fracture is just one without a wound all the way to the surface (i.e. possibly bones sticking out). They would have noticed an open fracture.

    • Trained Observer says:

      LOL: His nose knows …

      • towerflower says:

        What gets me is that the fogen supporters cite the medical billing code as proof of his nose being broken, while the written report of the PA only states “Likely Broken” and he refuses to see an ENT.

        I searched the medical billing codes and could find no billing code for a likely broken nose. Also I figured that he refused to see the ENT because it is better to have everyone assume that his nose is broken than to have proof that it isn’t. Even Serino called out MOM in the December hearing for constantly stating in his motions about his client’s “broken nose” and they yet to provide the proof that it was.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        @towerflower
        A while back, I think it was katieunc who explained that in a medical billing situation, one always uses the diagnosis code when there’s a possible but unconfirmed diagnosis. She linked to a protocol site that set that forth for PA’s and administrators. GZ was supposed to have the possible diagnosis confirmed by an ENT doc, which would have affirmed or invalidated the diagnosis code that was input by the PA, who is not a MD.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yes, but the sunglasses GZ wore to the station the next day removes all doubt about the condition of his nose. LLMPapa played the video, subscribe to his videos and scan the list, it will be among the latest.

    • Jun says:

      LOL that is a good catch

      You should send that catch to the office of the state attorney, in case they missed it… LOL

      Caught in a lie again!

      I just emailed Crump the video, hopefully he gets it

      • lurker says:

        I’m not a medical expert, but I believe that broken noses, like broken toes are largely ignored by medical personnel because there is so little to be done about them. Odds are that a diagnosis of “likely” broken nose might be as good as one might get–and would largely consist of damage to cartilage and soft tissue. I think that the ENT referral was sort of a routine pass-along in case Z might be considering his good looks and plastic surgery, etc. This would, I think, be the sort of thing that O’Mara would want expert testimony on–and one of those things with sufficient ambiguity that an expert could testify that based on looking at the photos and the judgement of the EMTs and the PA that it was very likely that Z. had a broken nose.

        I think that the much more difficult case is going to be the one of the “severe concussion” (as termed by Osterman). I would imagine that the prosecution is going to have no problem rounding up experts to talk about what kind of injury they would expect to see from repeated head-banging against concrete, the SOP for follow-up of a suspected concussion and so forth. Z had a laceration–essentially a cut, typified by clean edges and likely caused by a sharp object (perhaps the briars on a shrub, for example). Head banging on concrete would more likely result in an abrasion (scrape) or possibly avulsion (skin tearing) and result in such things as pronounced swelling, uneven pupil dilation, confusion and so forth–actual symptoms of concussion. SOP would include ice for swelling, perhaps X-ray of the skull, observation for brain swelling, and at a minimum periodic checks for orientation to time and place. None of that was reported.

      • Jun says:

        I dont believe even the photoshopped photo looks like he had a broken nose

        It honestly looks like he just took some blood and smeared it on the tip of his nose…

        A broken nose would be bleeding all over the place and the bleeding just dries up already and not going past his bottom lip?

        There’s also smearing on the right side of his lip

        There’s really no symptoms or concrete proof of his allegation of a broken nose

        I have gotten in fights before, and been hit in the nose, and even though it was not broken, that ish hurt for like a week… I would not even touch it…

        Personally Imma chalk it up to another lie

        Besides, there’s no foreign dna contribution, contribution from Fogenhats, on Trayvon’s sleeves, cuffs, or hands… not even any blood splatter… there’s no forensic evidence of any attack, even in self defense from Trayvon occurring…

        Lastly, the defendant targeted, stalked, pursued, and chased a kid, the defendant did this angrily and with a gun… once he wore the victim out, he confronted, threatened, and attacked the victim… which gives the victim every right to defend himself because intuition of impending death was real, so he had every right to use deadly force to defend himself… however, all the kid could do was curl up and scream for mercy and plead for mercy, and ask for his mother, and ask the defendant to get off him… the defendant than chose to shoot and kill the victim, as well as sitting on the victim’s back asphyxiating him… as the victim begged for mercy and none was shown by the defendant

        The broken nose will undergo scrutiny, especially since only Fogenhats can submit his statement of getting a broken nose from Trayvon… so no luck for Omara there LOL

        • The possible “concussion” should have required an X-Ray, if not a CT Scan.

          I’ve had a few bumps on the noggin’, and that’s the first thing they want to do if they suspect a concussion.

      • Jun says:

        if you look at Fogenhats bleeding

        the bleeding began when Fogenhats was upright, and then he tipped his head forward about a 45 degree angle… that is due to gravity, how you can tell…

        the bleeding already dried (or perhaps it was smeared blood by the defendant to help bolster his staged defense claim) and his superficial scratches pretty much already healed when EMT arrived and they noted they were only 1/4 inch superficial lacerations with minor bleeding…

        He also had no skull fractures… a head is not meant to hit concrete like that, the skull would crack open… and Fogenhats never had a crack on his skull, just superficial tiny lacerations…

        also concrete would cause scrapes and there were no large scrapes….

        I feel we all have played as kids and scabbed up our knees or elbows when we slip while we played…

        Its more ploys from Fogenhats and Junior and KKKlan

        What is more telling is his refusal of hospital service and the video of him at the police station where he was obviously not hurt and Bill Maher called him a “BIG FAT F%%%KIN LIAR”

      • Lynn says:

        @ Jun

        LMMPapa’s vid of “George’s Bling” should go hand in hand with this one. It’s the one where he’s walking to the 2/29 interview with sunglasses hanging from his shirt. I can’t imagine resting sunglasses on a likely broken nose.

  37. willisnewton says:

    Facebook and twitter will simply refuse to turn over access to a member’s private account. To do so would RUIN their business forever and they know it. And MOM knows it too. He’s trolling in order to try and taint the jury pool is all.

    • 2dogsonly says:

      @willisnewton says
      No way would FB or twitter release info as it would destroy their business forever. And MOm knows it too. He’s just trolling the same as always”
      And your comment is why I love bcc! Intelligent, concise, logical, and no noise to signal. Now we’re back up, just so happy.

  38. SupremeVictory says:

    What is the relevance in her social media account and why should the defense have it? I mean if she didn’t have one, would they be twiddling their fingers?

    • bettykath says:

      As I said above, the defense wants to know if she posted something on a social media site that could be used to impeach her testimony.

      • roderick2012 says:

        bettykath: the defense wants to know if she posted something on a social media site that could be used to impeach her testimony.

        She doesn’t want her identity to be revealed so I doubt she was stupid enough to post anything to anyone about Trayvon or the case, but yeah keep hope alive that the defense will turn up something that will help their client like all of the State prosecutors dying simultaneously.

      • bettykath says:

        roderick, yes, dd doesn’t want her identity known. I also doubt that dd posted anything anywhere that could be used to impeach her, however, the defense has a legitimate right to look and make that determination for themselves. From a defense pov, they may believe that she made up the story of how the conversation went and shared that info on a social media site. I think the defense hasn’t prevailed in getting that info b/c they haven’t been very effective in making their argument. And I’m unsure of the legalities involved in forcing her to make that info available so the defense is up against fb and twitter.

      • leander22 says:

        From a defense pov, they may believe that she made up the story of how the conversation went and shared that info on a social media site. I think the defense hasn’t prevailed in getting that info b/c

        Betty, I doubt you are correct. I think the don’t aim at a made up story but at a story she was manipulated into by what they like to call “the Scheme Team”, parents, attorney, partners and colleagues, media adviser and family.

        I do not read them regularly but early on the Treehouse Nuts thought they had uncovered DeeDee, the may well have called it another bombshell revelation at the time,arguing that this faux-DeeDee had in fact not been bothered a little bit the day after Trayvon dead. So the story must be made up.

        That’s what inspires defense. What exactly would they want to find there? I think they know they won’t find and if so use it. All they want is to feed the sponsor-machine.
        ************************************************
        SupremeVictory, defense fishes for matters in the right-wing support-blogger-sphere, that’s what their up-to-date approach about using the web is all about. The prof had a brilliant article about this larger strategy that concerning the jury. Go over to the treehousers and you find tons of articles on both Trayvon and DeeDee’s social media acounts, proving all kind of non-sense. Defense is actively feeding the rumor mill.

        The most important topics on the right is evil media, see the ABC case, or Benjamin Crump, see the transparent attempts to go further once they have got what they needed, like the “original” tape suspected to contain things that were cut out, or the people present at Crump’s interview. I am waiting to their response to the affidavit. I think Crump was always target number two next to DeeDee. The parents are slightly more safe, since they know they will be protected by Crump.

        He seems not only an enemy of the far right, but also for progressives like Jeralyn. I find this argument by her peculiar, I just wrote a comment. I love to pester her occasionally.

        Honestly why should Crump be bound by a 48-hour-filing-rule for defense and prosecution? Besides how short term was the deposition, in other words when did Crump receive it? In her comment Jeralyn suggest Debra Nelson made a ruling on the deposition of Crump. You can find the 48-hours-rule argument over on the treesitters camp too. Although they may have been inspired by her. I have only seen rulings by Nelson on depositions if a second one was deemed necessary. Not on ordinary depositions. I don’t think she needs to rule on that. And Jeralyn should know that much better than I do.

        Quite obviously most of what defense does by now is done with a view on public opinion. But that is something that the Professor told us long ago. It is meant to shift it into a more positive view their client, fighting his wrong treatment by media. People must get the impression he is wronged, it’s all political with Crump as Satan personified..

        Just how professionally Crump really worked can be easily seen from his affidavit. Even Jeralyn should realize. (ALEC, Aspen interests?) It also has the advantage of being openly available. If he surrendered to deposition all materials of this deposition could be used selectively and out of context for public relations. They always cited depositions selectively so far and the rest is not publicly available.

      • bettykath says:

        leander, the point is, the defense wants to see if DD posted anything for any reason that can reasonably be used to impeach her testimony. Any statement that she may have made about Trayvon and the “incident” that is inconsistent with her testimony would be used for impeaching her testimony. She is identified as a witness, the defense knows what she will be testifying to. They should know before she gets on the stand if there is anything that contradicts the story they expect to hear. It’s called completed staff work.

      • leander22 says:

        Ok, I understand, Betty. How is Jonathan Turley doing? Does he still pay attention on the case?

        May I backtrack slightly? I find it very, very hard to move beyond the Serino line, if Trayvon attacked GZ out of the blue, as GZ says, what exactly was his reason? And even if I accept, he wanted to teach this guy a lecture for observing and following him, do you believe he said: Tonight you gonna die!And bashed his head against the concrete? Why do O’Mara and West believe it? Do you think they do? Does Merritt?

        Maybe I should give this up. I really would like to know what happened. And I guess, I never will.

        I hope there is no postponement of the trial, and I somehow guess there will be.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Well, it’s obvious that the defense get a lot of their “info” from the blogs, either from reading themselves or from Fogen and Shellie reading and passing these ideas on to them.

        They think that DeeDee posted on her twitter all throughout the day on 2/26 therefore, she wasn’t talking to Trayvon all day as she and Crump say. This is ridiculous, because she can do both and probably did.

        They think that she posted a different reason as why she went to the hospital and wasn’t able to attend either Trayvon’s funeral or the wake other than what she told them. Therefore, she lied. (or because there are two different DeeDee’s…lmao)

        I don’t believe she posted anything on what happened that night. All Mom is hoping to find on her Twitter and FB is proof of what he is being told about her.

        My personal opinion is that Fogen and Shellie read what the nutters posted about DeeDee and told Mom and they got excited thinking it was true and that they were going to be able discredit her, prove her a liar. They also hope that Crump coached her to lie about what she and Trayvon talked about and what she heard.

        I also think that MOM made his comment in court the other day that he wants, “Accurate information”, because he is annoyed about the BS Fogen is insisting he use in his defense. Either that or it was a plea to his “people” to start sending him stuff that he can actually use.

      • Jun says:

        Yea it is stupid that they think twitter will prove you were not somewhere…

        You can tweet and facebook just about anywhere in America…

        and just because you post a happy tweet, it does not necessarily mean you dont feel the negative drama of the incident

      • bettykath says:

        leander,

        Jonathan Turley hasn’t posted anything about this in quite awhile. The most recent post was when the color photo of the defendant’s funny nose was released. Jonathan is quite serious about innocent until proven guilty. At least that’s my rationale for what seems to be favorable comments about the defendant. Consider, too, that he hasn’t spent much time analyzing all the information that’s available.

        you said: (sorry I don’t know how to do block quotes)
        May I backtrack slightly? I find it very, very hard to move beyond the Serino line, if Trayvon attacked GZ out of the blue, as GZ says, what exactly was his reason? And even if I accept, he wanted to teach this guy a lecture for observing and following him, do you believe he said: Tonight you gonna die!And bashed his head against the concrete? Why do O’Mara and West believe it? Do you think they do? Does Merritt?”
        ————
        Personal opinion: GZ is a liar. GZ did the attacking, not Trayvon. It is my belief (no proof available) that Trayvon was holding GZ down, wrestling style, trying to keep GZ from shooting him. This assumes GZ already had his gun out in an attempt to detain the “a$$hole who always gets away”.

        O’Mara and West are defense attorneys. Their job is to defend GZ so I’m not sure they have to, or even want to, believe or disbelieve their client. If they know that GZ is lying, they cannot let him testify to his lies under oath. I think if they really look at the evidence, which they should do in order to provide explanations that counter those of the prosecution, they’ll have a hard time letting him testify. I guess this is one of the reasons I’m so interested in the defense pov.
        =============
        Maybe I should give this up. I really would like to know what happened. And I guess, I never will
        ———————-
        Patience. If the defendant changes his plea to guilty we’ll get some information about what happened, mostly confirmation about what we’ve managed to sort out from the state’s evidence dumps. If it goes to trial I think we’ll get all that plus some answers for the missing minutes for which there are a number of good speculations.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        bettykath says:
        February 7, 2013 at 7:50 pm
        leander, the point is, the defense wants to see if DD posted anything for any reason that can reasonably be used to impeach her testimony. Any statement that she may have made about Trayvon and the “incident” that is inconsistent with her testimony would be used for impeaching her testimony.

        The problem with using comments from a Twitter or FB is that they would have to be very discriptive and not vague. Just as texts are shortened and sometimes taken out of context. Or just like a blog…a writer could be replying to the wrong comment.
        Also, the defense would have to prove that any comment they would like to use, if they found one, was in fact made by DeeDee or Trayvon and not by anybody else that may have had access to there accounts or passwords.

        I never log out of my FB or Twitter on my computer and my phone…I never have to put the password in, so anybody can use it if they wanted to. I used my sisters laptop at her house once and left my FB logged in because I never sign out…she could have posted anything she wanted to under my name. My son’s friend thought it was funny that he was able to figure out my son’s password and posted this on my son’s status, “I’m (my son’s name) and I’m a b_tch azz N word ending in an a not an r” to be funny. (btw, my son is white, his friend is black)

        My point is, they have to prove that it was them through IP addresses and then prove that they were home alone or the only one with access at the time and that nobody else made the comment.

      • bettykath says:

        Chris NY, you’re absolutely right. If the defense were to find something useful, the next step would be to validate it for exactly the reasons you state.

        A funny story: A high school friend and I made contact a few years ago and have stayed in touch mainly by email. He responded to everything I sent him with LOL. I thought his sense of humor was a bit strange but didn’t think too much about it until he responded to one message where LOL seemed hurtful and disrespectful. I sent him a message asking why he thought everything I sent was a joke. Turns out LOL also means “lots of love”. Neither of us uses LOL now – we spell it out.

      • lurker says:

        @leander, re: Serino’s question about why Trayvon would jump him. It has always struck me that Z’s belief was, in making up his story, that he would never be asked for any such explanation. And this to me speaks to his racial bias (which is something different than the FBI was looking for in making a determination about the possibility of a hate crime). Z’s assumption is that young black men/boys are simply violent people who go around attacking people for no particular reason (or even because they look white). O’Mara was reiterating again on Hannity that the FBI had “cleared” Z. of racism. Simply NOT true. They looked for particular things (such as membership in various groups, evidence of premeditated intent to specifically attack a black person, etc) that would legally qualify this as a hate crime. This does not mean that they have provided Z with some imprimator of being free of all racial bias. It remains clear, to my mind, that Z. followed Trayvon because he was black and in Z’s mind that equated to being criminal. And he further compounded this error by assuming that it was reasonable for a young black man to simply jump him and start beating his head against the sidewalk.

      • roderick2012 says:

        bettykath says: They should know before she gets on the stand if there is anything that contradicts the story they expect to hear. It’s called completed staff work.

        So why isn’t the defense going after every witness’ social media accounts?

        It’s because when the recording of DeeDee initial interview with Crump went public everyone realized that she was young and inarticulate and would be easily intimidated and they know even the threat of digging into her social media accounts would be a form of intimidation and a warning to the other witnesses that their privacy would be invaded if it meant keeping them off the witness stand against George.

      • roderick2012 says:

        bettykath says:roderick, yes, dd doesn’t want her identity known. I also doubt that dd posted anything anywhere that could be used to impeach her,

        Wow, while you were away you must have spent some quality time at the TreeHouse.

        I stated that DeeDee would not have been stupid enough to have mentioned the trial because it would have given away her identity but you’re stuck on DeeDee impeaching herself because you seem to be obsessed with proving that she did like the desperate defense is.

      • leander22 says:

        Thanks, Betty, especially for the hint about the use of LOL, Haven’t used it for ages myself, but did a couple of days ago, I think.

        I do respect a Jonathan Turley a lot. I think his position concerning the Stand Your Ground Law is very clear. And I appreciate that. It’s very easy too see to what extend it provides a loophole to slip out. Unfortunately the same loophole seems to apply concerning self-defense. But ultimately this loophole exists too in the good old self-defense. The main difference seems to be that under the old law there was an arrest, under the new that can’t happen anymore.

        Legally, Who Was the First Aggressor?

        Sufficient Provocation

        According to Wharton’s Criminal Law treatise, an encounter is provoked, thereby branding the defendant as an aggressor and stripping him of his right to self-defense, where the defendant:

        Assaulted the deceased;
        Unlawfully arrested the deceased;

        This incidentally may be the pet theory one way or another of many of us. And may have been Serino’s too. Not for one second do I believe that GZ was not aware of the SYG law. Even the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, Division of Licensing refers explicitly to the “Use of deadly force for self-defense” and the appropriate laws. Why does this a***** think we are stupid. Associate degree of law and never encountered these laws, concealed carry permit info material supposedly wasn’t read. And there was no mention during the training for it either?

        Compared with Jeralyn Merritt Jonathan Turley keeps on the the side of law without taking a position, but also allows himself to utter skepticism concerning GZ’s tale. Never ever happened in Jeralyn’s case. This admittedly makes me wonder if she has some sponsors on the issue. As some type of left gate keeper. She is read widely in to well known to me right wing circles.

        I just listened to O’Mara’s press conference after the hearing. Usually makes my mood drop steeply. He said, if he had to do what Crump had to do, he would have taken care everything was recorded on camera, after all there had been one around.

        ***************************************************

        lurker, I am circling the subject of latent racism too. Good point. I read the ABC Complaint yesterday. I seriously hope they won’t make it, for exactly that reason. I think Trayvon’s “blackness” was on his mind long before he was asked the question. People obviously develop strategies to cover it up “politely” or simply try to reverse it rhetorically/strategically. After I read the complaint, I did a couple of racial bias tests. 😉

      • leander22 says:

        Chris, thanks, yes that is probably everybody’s instinctive reaction. I often use Christian symbolism in this context. I would like to touch the wounds before I believe it. Although my memory of my education in that field is a pretty vague childhood memory by now.

    • roderick2012 says:

      Supreme, it’s good to see that you have joined us.

      I am polo8guy at Huffpo!!

  39. bettykath says:

    OT for this thread but I’ve been thinking about the lawyer/client relationship. It seemed quite evident at the beginning of MOM’s taking up the case that he wasn’t in charge of what the defendant said or did. I just can’t believe that the Hannity interview was his idea. Why would he go along with it? If it was at the defendant’s insistence (whether it was defendant’s idea or someone else who was giving him advice), at what point can the lawyer stop it? It seems that MOM now is closer to being in charge of the case than the defendant. What are the attorney’s options and what’s his/her responsibility when a defendant has trouble seeing the pit he is falling into and refuses the advice of his attorney?

    btw, I finally watched the video. Thanks for post. It looked to me like second chair did speak briefly with the defendant just before they left. I think MOM also spoke with him or at least listened to the conversation of the other two. They did not just turn their backs to him and walk away without a word.

    • leander22 says:

      Betty in the link I I posted above with the O’Mara quote. He says that most of the money 2 of 300.000 (which he later amends to 350.000) was brought in by Sean Hannity who brought all the sponsors to the website. Thus yes, he probably was convinced that “moneywise” this would be very, very effective. So he may in fact have been rather willing. He simply sits there like some stage prop. Did he ever have a nationwide appearance on TV before?

      Concerning Frederick’s take on the smiles and the ignoring of GZ, I did not completely see it that way either. Yes West talked to him, after a slap on the shoulder, and since O’Mara turns his back remaining slightly further off we do not really know if he does not add something, e.g. a good bye George. GZ was always left sitting there. But one tiny thing changed. I think earlier they had him sitting between them, now he was to their left with MOM and West next to each other. But I only got the audio of the December hearing, admittedly.

      • leander22 says:

        I didn’t put that well enough, he refers to the 200.000 as having been collected by GZ alone and assumes the big amount was a result of Hannity’s support of GZ.

      • bettykath says:

        I agree that most of the money came early on when Hannity voiced support for the poor man who was being railroaded and that it may have played a part in influencing O’Mara. Hannity did his bit to continue his support by asking puff questions.

        The change in placement at the hearing may be due to the attorneys seeing more importance to their being able to talk with each other than with the defendant or “through” the defendant. (I don’t know if this was a change or not. I didn’t watch the earlier hearing. Just offering a possible rationale for the change if there was one.)

      • aussie says:

        In the hearing where GZ has trouble folding a sheet of paper, he was sitting at the corner of the table. West and O”Mara were sitting at the long side of it. The lady lawyer (?) who is GZ’s babysitter was on the short side of the table. So GZ was between her and O”Mara.

        In one earlier hearing GZ was on the right of O”Mara. I vaguely think that was before West came on board.

  40. KA says:

    The GZ crowd hates her. I have to think why? Because what she says disagrees with their thoughts on what she should have said?

    It is honestly disgraceful the amount of fury they have for her. Count them up, any person saying something that disagrees with GZ’s account of what happened (all 5 of them), is a lying crook that should be sued, anyone that agrees has the “real” story.

    So ironic that the only one that has provably lied in any proceeding to do with this, is GZ…but I guess he was just “confused” (of course though, no one else deserves that “benefit of the doubt” in their minds.

    I think it is the worst of racism in action. They know NONE of the people involved, yet judge according to their own perceived worth in each human. The only one who “passes” that criteria, is the person with a previous legal record who killed a 17 yr old, unarmed kid. It is truly sick.

    • blushedbrown says:

      @KA

      Off topic sorta of
      Any word on the information you were waiting for in regards to GPS data for T-Mobile?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Much of their poking fun at her is racist, pure and simple.

    • Malisha says:

      Their attacks on Trayvon’s family, DeeDee, Crump, Jackson and Sharpton etc. are another form of violence. They show their colors every time they do that. But I’m comforted by the fact that Judge Nelson knows how to control her courtroom.

    • leander22 says:

      Amen, KA. Also 100% with Malisha.

    • leander22 says:

      Malisha, does this argument makes you feel angry? What is he suggesting. Reverse black on white racism? Raised my adrenaline. Look how “politely” argued, look how seemingly sensible and compassionate. Strictly he is telling me I am a racist, since yes, I would say: GZ shot a black kid.

      O’Mara: Donations from racists are not accepted

      Now has this case brought out racists on both sides, absolutely. I think it has and it would be simplistic to suggest it hasn’t. Since I think there are racists out there from the other side. On the Travon Martin side if you will. Who are bringing up the rhetoric in this case, the anger and the animosity. And on the other side as well. So there are people that look at George and say: You shot a black kid. Now if they say that to us, they might as well (?). But I am the one who said early on in this case, and I say it again, if this case brings to the forefront a conversation about the ways young black males are treated in our justice system, let’s have it. Don and I have represented hundreds, dozen and dozen and hundreds of young black males. So I know very well how the system may treat different demographics. It is just that this isn’t that case

      ager and reverse racism of black hate against “whities”.

  41. i’m a little concerned about the new accusation ( in the media ) that DD was 18 at the time Trayvon died.-since she was/has been afforded extra privacy from the courts based on, in part, her being 16 and underage.
    the other day renee shutzman on the orlando sentinel in a video report about the hearing was claiming that it’s been learned that DD was not a minor at the time and was in fact already 18. but she also said that DD is still 18 now! (at least that’s what i think i heard her say) of course that makes no sense since she can’t be 18 then AND now too!!

    so has anyone heard that DD was not a minor, and Ben Crump and BDLR has been lying about her age? and i don’t mean from the idiot zimmerlovers, i know they’ve been BSing about anything they can dream up trying to drag her through the mud, i’m asking has BDLR or anyone like him said they were mistaken about her age?

    i’m just irritated hearing the Orlando Sentinel saying that about DD & B.Crump as if it’s now a known FACT!

    • If DD turned 18 between 2/7/12 and 2/26/12, she would still be 18 and just a year older than Trayvon.

    • Jun says:

      She was in kindergarten with Trayvon, so she could be 18 at most right now…. its simple math

    • blushedbrown says:

      @Shannon

      I understand the frustration and irritation as well in regards to DeeDee.

      Let’s look at it this way, considering the fact that ALL the eye/ear witnesses whether they were 16 or 66 at the time had immediate privacy and protection in regards to their identity. You can remain anon on 911 calls like wit-18 requested on her call. Some made interviews reveling their identities, such as Selma and Mary, and Cheryl Brown. DeeDee was under the same cloak of protection irregardless if she was 16 or 18. There are adults in this case who do not have their identity revealed, for instance w-3, w-10. The only reason we figured out who was who was because they lived at the complex and the digging was quite easy.

      It frustrates the CTH and O’mara because when Crump did his due diligence in regards in finding her and protecting her identity he may or may not known that the young lady was 18. I would of assumed that since she was a friend/girlfriend of Trayvon that assumption of being a minor would be correct. Her identity is protected just like everyone else. Yes, minor rights are greater then adults. But adults have the same privelge. The family has done an outstanding job in protecting her. As well as her schoolmates and anybody else that knows her. They closed ranks around her. We will also.

    • Xena says:

      @Shannon. DeeDee’s age makes no difference because she is not charged with a crime. An 18 yr old is emancipated to marry, live apart from parents, and even drop out of school. However, an 18 yr old still attending school and supported by parents or a parent, is not emancipated. Just ask the parents who are paying child support because their 18 yr old is still in high school and living with the custodial parent.

    • Malisha says:

      DeeDee could be 18 then and now too if her birthday was between Feb. 7 and Feb. 26, but I think it is highly unlikely and essentially irrelevant. Stutzman is not a reliable reporter.

    • leander22 says:

      Shannon, the “evidence” concerning DeeDee’s age is fed by Crump’s early media introduction of DeeDee as a minor. Notice “evil media – media distortions”.

      This may have been a ruse to get her protection, he was aware of the parent’s, mother’s concern. The media know that a minor has more protection under the law. Or it shows in fact he did not ask her personal matters, as he suggests in his affidavit. Why would the age be interesting for him, he does not represent her. Maybe realized too late that he had to present her as a person, and that maybe he should have asked her age. He solved the problem by assuming she probably was a year younger then Trayvon, probably a standard. There are of course other possibilities….

      The second part of the argument is that DeeDee was 18 on April 2, when she did her interview with FDLE or BDLR. Which strictly means, she could have turned 18 between 26/02/2012 and 4/2/2012. My birthday is March 31, and in the year I turned 18, I would have been 17 at the earlier date and 18 at the later.

      We also know who is feeding this rumor mill or this media obsession with DeeDee’s age which strictly is irrelevant.

      The treehouser’s publish it. Link to the image

      Personally I take O’Mara’s missives with a grain of salt, could her identity be protected in a case like this in Florida even if she wasn’t a minor at the time of the event? I assumed that BDLR played a little bit with O’Mara in this context and in turn have triggered the idea and this storm in a teapot. Jeralyn was equally obsessed with that statement. I think the whole tale has some type of proxy function. They don’t want to come out directly and say she invented the story and was lured into it by Crump. so the age at least serves to keep people’s attention on DeeDee. With everybody hoping the associations will go in the right direction anyway. Since why did she not inform police on her own and earlier?

    • Dan Q. Smith says:

      @ shannoninmiami,

      I am sorry that I do not know the answer to your question, but I remember Lawence O’Donnell had Renee Shutzman on his show and he proved with screen captures that she had stated something as fact that should have been shown as an attribution. Her defence was, “I don’t agree with you.” I lost any respect I could have had for her professionalism at this point.

      • yeah i saw that too, and she’s doing it again and it’s confusing, especially when she’s sitting there on video talking about how gz lost this latest motion and seems to be truthful.
        i just kept thinking i missed something during the hearing!
        i also hate arguing with her on twitter because agian i’ll think i’m going crazy!! you’d think she’d be reporting the facts and the question is a simple yes or no, not a word game.

      • Xena says:

        @Dan Q. Smith. Here ya go.

    • Mike says:

      If you really think about it there’s 12 months in a year, if dd was 16 at the time of the murder it had only been just under too month into the new year. So she may very well had turned 17 during 2012 . And now that it’s 2013 this may be the year she turns 18 assuming that her birthday comes after 02/26.

    • seallison says:

      Regarding the above debate, I have a link to Benjamin Crumps Affidavit that discusses DeeDees age, etc..

      http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/2013/02/Ben-Crump-deposition-affidavit-0205.pdf

  42. Bill Taylor says:

    ONE HUGE problem with you suggestion……the forensic FACTS = are proof 100% positive that Martin did NOT attack fogen.

  43. bettykath says:

    If it could be shown that DD posted on her fb or on twitter something along the lines of: “I just did that m…f…. bad. I told that Trayvon was scared when he was really going after that m…f…. to do him in. Too bad Trayvon was shot but I really got even with that dude.” Couldn’t it be used to impeach her testimony?

    FWIW, I believe DD. But it isn’t the job of the defense attorneys to just take her word. Shouldn’t they see if there is something she said to just her “friends” that would lead to impeachment?

    • Jun says:

      the likelihood of that is extremely tiny, especially, when all the other evidence says otherwise

      There is also the issue of people faking tweets by such a person, since it is the internet as seen thus far by the Zimmernuts

      If I were here, I would just get a lawyer and refuse to divulge any information regarding any social accounts, whether she has them or not and to divulge the handles for such information because it is a homicide defendant and she needs to protect her safety and privacy as shown by the recent doxing of the wrong witnesses, although it is witness intimidation

      According to FDLE response, witnesses are allowed to refuse private information to a homicide defendant

    • You’re right because that would be permissible impeachment by prior inconsistent statement.

      • bettykath says:

        So the defense isn’t so far off base in wanting to see her social media accounts.

        • I said,

          Although I think the information in Dee Dee’s social media accounts is discoverable, assuming she has any accounts, I agree with Lonnie’s conclusion that the information is irrelevant and inadmissible.

          I wasn’t thinking about the example that you provided. If the defense discovers a prior inconsistent statement to her testimony at trial, they can use it.

          Her statement to Crump is inadmissible hearsay that can be used by the defense or prosecution, if it contains a statement that is inconsistent with her testimony.

          Either side can show it to her if she needs it to refresh her recollection.

          Bad acts and bad character evidence are not admissible and that is what I was focused on when I wrote my article.

          Thanks for pointing that out and giving me a chance to correct what I said.

    • Trained Observer says:

      I don’t like to see even theoretical quotes drafted and put into mouths of prospective witnesses. Why? Because the next thing you know some fool picks them up, attributes them directly to a targeted witness, and what was weak speculation by a casual onlooker making up “along the lines of” jargon suddenly becomes heavy-duty hearsay or absolute “fact.”

      In the interim, my hope is that once discovered, Witness 8 has had impeccable unwavering legal guidance on staying out of the limelight and not chatting about the tragedy on social media.or anywhere else, except perhaps with a grief counselor.

      • well said. i know exactly what you mean!
        but you may just have predicted the past!
        there hasn’t been any evidence to suggest DD’s anything other than a nice normal girl. someone with the same type of integrity as Trayvon and his family.
        after all, birds of a feather.

    • roderick2012 says:

      bettykath says:so the defense isn’t so far off base in wanting to see her social media accounts.

      Seriously?

      It’s just as likely as O’Mara finding something incriminating in Trayvon’s school records…opps we haven’t heard about those lately, have we?

      Maybe that’s because Trayvon wasn’t violent as the Treehuggers claimed and now O’Mara wants to gather credit cards records to identify the person who bought the cigar which Trayvon MAY have bought and taken out the tobacco and replaced it with weed which opps…. would have put him in the opposite of an aggressive mood if he had smoked it before he met George that night.

      BTW what happens if Facebook and Twitter refuse to hand over the information?

      Will Judge Nelson have to give him a continuence since she granted the request and how long would it take to wind its way through federal court if O’Mara can find the time to file a lawsuit since he’s so busy fundraising these days?

      • Eric says:

        I think Bettykath might trolling. I agree with your view. Why in the world,if this girl is lying,would she admit that on Facebook or Twitter. MOM is desperate. Obviously he knows/believes that DeeDs testimoney is very damaging.

        • esentrick says:

          Eric I honestly believe Bettykath is not a troll but a person really interested in learning the judicial process and has the utmost respect for officers of the court. IMHO Bettykath does not hold any malicious disregard for MOM and company or the butcher.

          Me on the other hand, I find MOM detestable as an officer of the court and hope the butcher is convicted and put in jail for the rest of the his life! He might be innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. But in my public opinion, he is guilty of killing an unarmed, nonmischievous Trayvon Benjamin Martin; unjustifiably!

          That right I said it!

      • kimmi says:

        I certainly hope Judge Nelson doesn’t grant a continuance for the FB and Twitter accounts, that could take years in court. Ugh!

      • bettykath says:

        I’m on the blog of an attorney who spent in the neighborhood of 30 years defending mostly people charged with aggravated murders, I raise questions dealing with the defense of the current defender and I’m trolling? I thought this was a site for learning. Learning includes more than just what it takes to convict. It also includes what the defense can/should do or not.

        I’ve heard enough about the prosecution. They have enough to show the elements of murder 2, unless…… the defense has an effective counter argument or interpretation or evidence. I want to understand what an effective defense in this case would be.

        The defense counsel wanted to know from a reputable source about Trayvon’s tendency to be violent. A good source is his school records. MOM had the right to request these records, he got them, and will now decide whether or not to use them in court.

        Same with the social media. There were weeks when DD COULD have posted whatever to a social media site that would be beneficial to the defense. Did she? We don’t know. That’s what’s important to the defense. It’s certainly unlikely that she would do so once Crump got involved and she had the opportunity to be heard and once the case got media attention. But what about before that? Could Judge Nelson order DD to provide access to MOM to read her posts of a specific period of time with assurances of confidentiality? I don’t think MOM has made that motion.

        This is an extremely difficult case for the defense. What we have seen so far is all from the prosecution’s case and it’s extremely strong. But there are two sides that need to be heard in court, not just one. I want to know more about what the defense should be looking for. Professor has indicated that the defense should have gotten experts on board a long time ago to review the forensics. Maybe someone to do the work that so many here have done to compare the defendant’s stories to the NEN call and to consider how to deal with the discrepancies. Maybe their own expert to analyze the 911 screams. What else should MOM be considering?

        • roderick2012 says:

          The professor has already answered that the defense’s tactics are bullsquat!!

        • Xena says:

          @bettykath

          What else should MOM be considering?

          Paying AIS and filing a petition to have GZ declared indigent.

          Look Betty,O’Mara has the treeslummers to tell him what to consider in defending GZ. Are they out of ideas? Do we need to help them? I don’t think so.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I’ve always appreciated BettyKath’s level-headed comments and questions. and I’ve been here reading since Mr. L was posting simultaneously here and at Firedoglake, so that’s been many months.

        Mr. L has explained the situation, so you don’t really need my two cents . . .but I’ve always noted that BK is interested in learning the unvarnished facts about the case. She’s one of few posters here who doesn’t indulge in emotional rhetoric about the case.

        I basically wonder about a lot of the same points BK makes. While I don’t like the defense’s shenanigans, they do have quite a bit of legal leeway to investigate all aspects of the case in order to defend Fogen.

        I think a strong and thorough defense for Fogen is critical in order to dispel the mistaken premise that he’s being politically railroaded. I do think he will be convicted of manslaughter at the very least and hopefully the trial will make this outcome so crystal clear that even his most ardent supporters will have toconcede that their support of him was misguided.

        So while I doubt Witness 8 posted anything of interest , I also hope that Twitter and FB won’t cooperate because W8 is not on trial for anything and I don’t like to see her privacy breached, I also understand that OM has some reason to poke around in her business. I still think that a lot of his poking around is high theater for Fogen’s supporters and that he knows its futile.

        LIfe is full of paradoxes and I think in order to be fully comfortable in this world that you must accept these paradoxes both in ourselves and in others.

        • roderick2012 says:

          “….. .but I’ve always noted that BK is interested in learning the unvarnished facts about the case. She’s one of few posters here who doesn’t indulge in emotional rhetoric about the case.”

          LOL No she isn’t. She’s here to whine and complain that people aren’t waiting until the trial before judging George. Can you explain where in any of her posts she posts anything of significance? Just because she bashes other posters for indulging in emotional rhetoric doesn’t mean she doesn’t it just proves she has nothing of substance to add.

          Yes it’s normal for people to get emotional and even angry when we see someone who is taking advantage of every aspect of the legal system to avoid suffering the consequences of his action while he didn’t offer the same curiosity to the person he killed. He made multiple negative assumptions about a complete stranger and that stranger was dead less than ten minutes later.

          “I think a strong and thorough defense for Fogen is critical in order to dispel the mistaken premise that he’s being politically railroaded. I do think he will be convicted of manslaughter at the very least and hopefully the trial will make this outcome so crystal clear that even his most ardent supporters will have toconcede that their support of him was misguided”

          So you believe that character assassination and witness intimidation are valid defense strategies?

          It’s obviously a last grasp for the defense to delay the trial and misdirect the jury because the evidence is probably a lot stronger than you or I know.

          What I find interesting is that I have never heard George’s parents talk about his early childhood or even his brother talk about their lives growing up together. The only things that I hear about George is that 1) he assisted in the Sherman Ware case 2) he mentored black kids. His father only defends George by trashing Trayvon, and his family but he never says anything positive about him. Neither do his so called BFFs Osterman. And Taaffe. That tells me a lot about George’s character or lack thereof and the only way to ‘make things even’ is to discredit anyone who disagrees with George or publicly expresses anything negative about him.

          Furthermore do you believe that someone, anyone who admits taking the life of another person should at minimum be held until in custody until the autopsy results come back? Maybe even the ballistic reports or forensic reports?

          People are held in jail under the guise of probable cause with fair less evidence than this shooter admitting he did it.

          Remember people thought that OJ was guilty because the police said so.

          “So while I doubt Witness 8 posted anything of interest , I also hope that Twitter and FB won’t cooperate because W8 is not on trial for anything and I don’t like to see her privacy breached, I also understand that OM has some reason to poke around in her business. I still think that a lot of his poking around is high theater for Fogen’s supporters and that he knows its futile.”

          I know that I am a cynic but I wonder if this is a set-up for George’s ‘get out of jail’ free card.

          It’s difficult for me to believe that Judge Nelson didn’t know about Facebook and Twitter’s privacy policies before she allowed O’Mara to go digging into Trayvon’s and DeeDee’s social media accounts.

          O’Mara could hold this trial up for years if he wants to file a federal lawsuit against Facebook and Twitter for access or if Judge Nelson won’t give him a continuance he would have good grounds for appeal since she gave him permission to obtain some information which he was prevented from obtaining.

          “LIfe is full of paradoxes and I think in order to be fully comfortable in this world that you must accept these paradoxes both in ourselves and in others.’

          Attempting to assassinate the character of someone you killed in hopes of avoiding the penalty for taking that person’s life isn’t a paradox it’s desperate and evil.

      • aussie says:

        BettyKath is NOT TROLLING.

        She writes far too well and far too sensibly to be a troll.

        If we are to look at this WHOLE case, we do have to look at how the defence could/should handle their side, not just the prosecution side.

        • roderick2012 says:

          Aussie, you have a different definition of trolling than I.

          Basically BK is bringing in the OutHouse ideas onto this forum in a manner that seems non-threatening and accusing regular posters of being emotional here is basically echoing the perspective of George’s supporters that Trayvon’s supporters are thinking with their hearts rather than their brains is another tactic of the Outhousers.

    • Xena says:

      @bettykath. Let’s go with the what if’s. What if GZ texted to Taaffe, “I just killed that little nigger because he didn’t stop screaming for help but no way am I going to be arrested for it” do you think that will convict GZ?

      What if Taaffe texted back to GZ, “Thanks dude. We need to get rid of all those blacks and bring property values back up.” Do you think that will evidence a conspiracy?

      • bettykath says:

        The texts alone are insufficient. In the first instance, the text would help in determining motive and depraved indifference. In the second instance, more would be needed to show that Taaffe was in the know before the deed.

        • Xena says:

          @bettykath

          The texts alone are insufficient.

          How so?

          In the first instance, the text would help in determining motive and depraved indifference.

          My point is that such a text would prove that GZ did not kill Trayvon in self-defense.

          In the second instance, more would be needed to show that Taaffe was in the know before the deed.

          Taaffe is not on trial for killing Trayvon. Such a text would indicate GZ’s motive.

      • Dan Q. Smith says:

        @ bettykathy,

        Your statement, “The defense counsel wanted to know from a reputable source about Trayvon’s tendency to be violent.” is fallacious; specifically, its argument is assuming its own conclusion (i.e. it assumes Trayvon had a tendency to be violent).

        I do not know why you would not have said, ‘”The defense counsel wanted to know from a reputable source whether or not Trayvon had a tendency to be violent.’

        It does not seem to me that your statement was speaking as a replacement for a defence theory . It seems to me that these are your words told from your point of view.

        I think examples like the above might be why some have questioned whether or not you are trolling.

      • bettykath says:

        Xena,

        you said: My point is that such a text would prove that GZ did not kill Trayvon in self-defense.

        we’re both right. It would show motive for murder2 and that it demolishes the claim of self-defense.

        you said: Taaffe is not on trial for killing Trayvon. Such a text would indicate GZ’s motive.

        sorry, no cigar. what Taffe says is not admissible as GZs motive. Note that these are Taffe’s words, not GZ’s words. However, if combined with other emails or other evidence before the murder, Taffe could be considered a part of a conspiracy. He would probably also be charged with murder 2 since at least one member of the conspiracy acted on it.

        • Xena says:

          @bettykath

          you said: Taaffe is not on trial for killing Trayvon. Such a text would indicate GZ’s motive.
          sorry, no cigar. …

          Sorry, I disagree. Taaffe is a witness for the prosecution. If he texted GZ about ridding that community of Blacks, then he can be questioned about why he said that to GZ. That relates back to GZ’s motive because GZ is the one on trial.

      • bettykath says:

        xena,
        “Sorry, I disagree. Taaffe is a witness for the prosecution. If he texted GZ about ridding that community of Blacks, then he can be questioned about why he said that to GZ. That relates back to GZ’s motive because GZ is the one on trial.”

        As I said, the text is insufficient. More information that precedes the murder is needed. It may very well be Taafe’s motive for GZ’s actions but without other prior communications from GZ’s mouth or texts or whatever, it’s just Taafe’s pov that he may be projecting on GZ.

        • Xena says:

          @bettykath

          As I said, the text is insufficient.

          As I said, Taaffe can be questioned is there exists such a text message to GZ. I think where our misunderstanding is, is that you are concentrating on Taaffe while I’m concentrating on GZ.

      • @ Bettykath,

        No offense intended, really. but you are offensive.

        “tere were weeks when DD COULD have posted whatever to a social media site that would be beneficial to the defense. Did she? We don’t know. That’s what’s important to the defense.”

        what kind of person would do something like that? to ask this question you’d have to assume this girl is something of a hardcore female gangster. some maniacal hateful, conniving heartless 18 year old scumbag who’s only true interest is
        the hate spewing racists’ media hype, and not the loss of a childhood friend?

        you can’t be serious about learning what omar can do in gz’s defense when talking about FB or twitter, those are just perpetuating lies against the innocent victim.
        if there was a chance of a real defense he
        should have admitted what he did and taken responsibilty for what he did. anything else is just bullshit.

        • Xena says:

          @shannon (((((Applause)))))

          That is why I asked some what if’s about GZ and Taaffe’s text messages. That has now progress into the admissibility. The point was completely missed.

      • bettykath says:

        xena, “As I said, Taaffe can be questioned is there exists such a text message to GZ. I think where our misunderstanding is, is that you are concentrating on Taaffe while I’m concentrating on GZ.”

        I’m concentrating on what you postulated: a text from Taafe to GZ in response to GZ’s admission. Where GZ is concerned, that text doesn’t prove a thing except Taafe believes that GZ is ok with him saying something like that. Can the prosecution question him about it? of course. But if Taafe has a lawyer advising him, he probably shouldn’t answer any questions about previous conversations b/c it can put him in the position of being a co-conspirator.

        • Xena says:

          @bettykath

          I’m concentrating on what you postulated:

          My initial question to you on this matter was based on your postulating the what-if contained in DeeDee’s social media that as of now, there is no evidence of its existence. The intent was to show you that we can apply what-if’s to GZ’s text messages to Taaffe.

          IMO, part if not most of O’Mara’s problems now are because he has ran down rabbit holes based on what if’s to come up empty.

      • bettykath says:

        Shannon,

        I’m sorry you see my attempts to see the whole picture to be offensive. I’m not apologizing for my posts or questions.

        We are talking about evidence for a trial here aren’t we? or is this just a cheering section for the prosecution? I thought I was clear that I’m considering what the defense could or should be looking for/at. Posing questions doesn’t presuppose an answer. The defendant has made several statements. The defense has an obligation to assume they are true and to try to find substantiation for them. As I’ve said elsewhere, the prosecution’s case is very strong. The challenge is now for the defense to find whatever it can to support their client’s claims and to find alternate explanations for what they expect the prosecution to put forward.

        “what kind of person would do something like that? to ask this question you’d have to assume this girl is something of a hardcore female gangster. blah, blah, blah….”

        That is exactly one of the things that the defense attorney needs to consider. Are they evil for doing this? No. They are trying to be effective defense attorneys for their client.

        I have no idea of the statistics but I suspect that most murderers don’t ‘fess up. They get an attorney whose job it is is to make sure that the prosecution proves its case. Some attorneys are more effective than others. Imo, it’s best that MOM does the most thorough job he is capable of doing.

      • bettykath says:

        Don,

        You have a point. If I were speaking from my own perspective, your choice of words is better than mine, however, as you point out, I was speaking from the perspective of MOM.

        I would hope that folks can put their emotional attachments aside enough to recognize that I’m asking questions that we should be considering if we don’t want to be blindsided at the trial. Or at least questions that the defense needs to be asking to ensure that the prosecution has done its job properly.

        Some seem to have forgotten that there are two sides to the story to be presented. A couple of weeks ago I sat in a couple of seminar sessions where cases were discussed. The presenter was very good. He provided part of the information about the trial and asked for a show of hands about guilty v not guilty. He took questions from the floor then provided more information. and then another poll. At about the 3rd or 4th poll, when all the pertinent information was out, the guilty v not guilty usually changed dramatically. Then he told us the actual outcome. My conclusion: the courts are nuts.

        • Xena says:

          @bettykath

          I would hope that folks can put their emotional attachments aside enough to recognize that I’m asking questions that we should be considering if we don’t want to be blindsided at the trial.

          Here’s the reality and not a what-if as you introduce. O’Mara stood in court flapping pieces of paper alleging they were DeeDee’s social media. Shortly thereafter, he posted on the gzlegaldefense site that, to paraphrase, the information he was given was incorrect, and attorney Crump should tell him DeeDee’s handle so GZ’s supporters would not continue doxing the wrong people.

          What does this tell us? That GZ’s supporters found info that they believed was DeeDee’s social media BECAUSE it painted DeeDee in a bad light.

          Reality check: Facebook, neither Twitter, is going to give O’Mara a darn thing about Trayvon’s nor DeeDee’s accounts because they operate pursuant to federal law and don’t have to. O’Mara is not authorized law enforcement and he represents the defendant, which according to Facebook’s TOS, prevents them from complying with his subpoena.

        • blushedbrown says:

          @bettykath

          Another poster has extended his hand to you to visit the site link below.. I am passing along the message. It is an extension of BccList. An excellent site that has done alot of work regarding times light events, and extensive conversations to the case at hand. Whonoze happens to be the owner of the blog. Please feel free to visit.

          http://whonoze.wordpress.com/2013/01/23/diaspora2/#comments

      • bettykath says:

        Xena says:
        February 8, 2013 at 12:12 am

        @bettykath

        I’m concentrating on what you postulated:

        My initial question to you on this matter was based on your postulating the what-if contained in DeeDee’s social media that as of now, there is no evidence of its existence. The intent was to show you that we can apply what-if’s to GZ’s text messages to Taaffe.
        —————————–
        I missed what you were getting at b/c I was posting about the defense and DD, not the prosecution. Furthermore, if the prosecution wanted to find out if Taafe and GZ were conspiring, then, indeed they would have subpoenaed the appropriate material. So far, it seems that the prosecution either has all such material it needs or, more likely, it doesn’t need it.

        The defense, otoh, still needs evidence to counter the prosecution’s witnesses. It does seem to have a need to find information that could impeach DD’s testimony. Will they find it? Probably not. But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t look for it.
        =====================

        IMO, part if not most of O’Mara’s problems now are because he has ran down rabbit holes based on what if’s to come up empty.
        —————————
        But the next rabbit hole may have something useful.

        • Xena says:

          @bettykath

          But the next rabbit hole may have something useful.

          In rabbit holes, you find rabbits that generally slip out of grasp and run, and dirt that serves no purpose. Investigations follow the dots and as BDLR said in the last hearing, O’Mara wants the prosecution to connect the dots for him.

        • Xena says:

          @bettykath

          Furthermore, if the prosecution wanted to find out if Taafe and GZ were conspiring,…

          You are arguing your own implication.

          Some seem to have forgotten that there are two sides to the story to be presented.

          We’ve heard GZ’s side.

      • Malisha says:

        I’m jumping into the “what about BettyKath” conversation without having had time to read all the pertinent comments. I have known BettyKath for a long time from another blog; she is trustworthy and intelligent and I value her comments. She is not a troll. I have a point to make (to her, with her) about several things but have not had time in the last few days to devote the proper attention to it, because it is a matter of some subtlety and delicacy, even. But just for me to say I’m hoping to do so, and I hope everybody here with believe me when I say that BettyKath is interested in justice, is appalled by gross wrongdoing, and is a person of good conscience — that’s my post, I haven’t time to edit it right now. BettyKath, I’ll try to address your concerns this evening if I don’t fall asleep too soon (as I have been doing for a few weeks now). My deep respect and personal friendship to all of you who are in this conversation — later…

        • Xena says:

          @Malisha

          She is not a troll.

          I never called, neither inferred, that bettykath is a troll. I responded to her “what if” comment regarding DeeDee with “what ifs” regarding GZ and Taaffe. Rather than Betty understanding my intent, she began litigating the what ifs as though they are facts.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena~ THAT’S IT! I couldnt think of a way to say what bettykath did, but yes, she “LITIGATED” those statements AS IF they were facts, AS A DEFENSE LAWYER WOULD! There is no way she is a troll; I, too, understood what she was doing by using GZs own words to set up a possible defense direction.   Thanks for that!

          • Xena says:

            @cielo62. You’re welcome, but just to make a point, what if’s are not generally allowed in court and are objected to based on speculation. If we took BK’s what if as fact, we would have to disregard the true, real fact, which is that Facebook only provides account information to authorized law enforcement, in which O’Mara is not.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena~ MOM isn’t going to get diddly, but he has to pretend to try. For his fan base.

          • Xena says:

            @cielo62

            Xena~ MOM isn’t going to get diddly, but he has to pretend to try. For his fan base.

            Oh sure. Facebook’s attorney has told him their TOS. O’Mara will still insult the intelligence of donors and tell them he needs thousands of dollars to litigate the matter in the federal court, and then try to deceive Judge Nelson to grant a continuance.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena~ it seems to me that MOM is trying to have his cake and eat it too. I mean, you can’t claim GZ indigent until that dang defense fund is shut down. And yet he keeps begging for more money! Come June, he’ll have neither money NOR  a case.

          • Xena says:

            @cielo62

            Xena~ it seems to me that MOM is trying to have his cake and eat it too. I mean, you can’t claim GZ indigent until that dang defense fund is shut down. And yet he keeps begging for more money! Come June, he’ll have neither money NOR a case.

            That’s the quagmire O’Mara has gotten himself into. He cannot be GZ’s defense attorney and guardian of GZ’s estate at the same time. One of O’Mara’s mistakes was believing that the State has no evidence to prove to 2nd degree murder. When O’Mara took the case pro bono, he also took on the expense for discovery and expert witnesses. Bet he now regrets believing that the State lacks evidence to prove its case.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

      • bettykath says:

        Malisha,

        Thank you. The charges of my being a troll have been adequately addressed by yourself, the professor, two sides, and perhaps others.

        I have no problem with the dialog that’s going on. Much of it is just discussion from different points of view. Most of the folks here are emotionally charged with going after the defendant so I know what I’m getting into when I suggest that the defense has some rights that need to be respected. And that the defense looks at witnesses and evidence differently than the prosecution.

        I’m not so emotionally “into” this b/c I read nearly every day about another Trayvon or his sister who has been senselessly gunned down, frequently by a LEO, and no charges are brought. I’d be an emotional wreck if I didn’t stand back a bit. “49 shots” still gets an emotional reaction.

        Heaven forbid that any who are so antagonistic toward defense attempts to provide a case are ever charged with a serious crime and get the same treatment as they are giving to MOM, et. al. Civil rights and judicial rights are for everyone or they are worthless. There are many instances of LEOs, lawyers, judges, COs, etc really messing with the “justice” system. This is just one discussion group that can exercise a pile-on based on discussion so far, or it can learn more about the rights of all defendants, even those charged with heinous acts. The best test of our system is when a case like this is presented and the question of “does it work?” is answered, “yes, the defendant got his day in court, including the best defense that could be provided based on decisions that he and his defense team made.”

      • @BettyKath,

        Blah, blah blah?
        yes, that’s exactly what i said. so where did you get the idea i’ve asked you to apologize? i only pointed out your most recent offensive comments/questions about DD posting stuff like “hey homies i got that mutherfucker good! hehe, i lied and said Trayvon said he was scared, when he really was gonna go beat that muthers’ ass! too bad Trayvon died, but i got me some revenge!”

        “bettykath says:

        February 7, 2013 at 3:33 pm

        If it could be shown that DD posted on her fb or on twitter something along the lines of: “I just did that m…f…. bad. I told that Trayvon was scared when he was really going after that m…f…. to do him in. Too bad Trayvon was shot but I really got even with that dude.”

        “The challenge is now for the defense to find whatever it can to support their client’s claims and to find alternate explanations for what they expect the prosecution to put forward”

        —————–
        the defense’s job is to represent the client ethically, diligently but within the confines of the law. they don’t have a duty to *believe* their client blindly and willfully disregard common sense and the education they are being paid for. and just because they can lie in court doesn’t give them the right.

        but back to my original point, if you really want gz to have a fair trial, wouldn’t it be more prudent to concentrate on possible evidence that might actually help him, and not some *supposed nefarious* tweets and worthless personal attacks against everyone involved with the victim? the twitter and facebook have already been asked for but apparently the defense doesn’t have the right to get them according to the rights to privacy of the companies’ TOS – not to mention they probably wouldn’t be admissible since they’re too hard to authenticate, that is assuming they even exists still.
        what about the dna, fire arm forensics and the *experts* they can’t afford anymore?

        ————–

        “Heaven forbid that any who are so antagonistic toward defense attempts to provide a case are ever charged with a serious crime and get the same treatment as they are giving to MOM, et. al. Civil rights and judicial rights are for everyone or they are worthless”

        BTW, i’m not antagonistic against a proper defense. but i am disgusted at the unprofessional behavior that omar and west have demonstrated in this case.

        i don’t consider attempting to taint the jury in pointless pressers and interviews, accusing other members of the bar of unfounded conspiracies, indulging and encouraging racists on the CTH and their own websites and show boating in court in front of the same judge who will be hearing their case. if they were my lawyers i’d fire them.

    • Eric says:

      I love your dialog. Judging by your silly comment that you have posted to the professor’s blog, you have proven that you go back to treehouse with the rest of your pathetic ilk. Go away troll.

    • Malisha says:

      I listened to DeeDee talk. She hasn’t got the guile to do anything like what you suggest there — and she wouldn’t be tweeting that kind of planned-out scheming stuff to any of her friends. If it were to turn up I would really think it was the result of some hacker; but I think the possibility is so remote that I’m not even worried about it. DeeDee, unlike Fogen, has not had a 16-year course in how to lie.

      • bettykath says:

        Malisha, I agree with you but we aren’t defense counsel. I think they have an obligation to consider the possibility.

      • Dan Q. Smith says:

        @ Malisha

        I agree with you. Besides, how could she have planned this and them for it to be a coincidence that everything else we have aligns with what she says? None of the theories that Fogin’s supporters have about Dee Dee makes sense to me.

      • Mike says:

        I’ve read BK’s comments over the past few months and her language here this evening is the same as her other post. I’d say not a troll.

    • leander22 says:

      There is also the issue of people faking tweets by such a person, since it is the internet as seen thus far by the Zimmernuts

      I recently subscribed to Facebook again anonymously, even using a made up name and email address. I don’t want such a thing actually, but sometimes it help. In some places it seems to be taken for granted that you have both a twitter and Facebook account or at least one of these.

      In the process I looked at the sections about the usage specifically and discovered an interesting item. A special note about a specific setting that guarantees that no manipulations are possible. How many people pay attention to this “small print” contents?

      • leander22 says:

        in other words what you suggest Betty, may be true, but I wouldn’t accept such content without further examination of the IP address involved in the posting of it.. I think that would be traceable. Are you listening Fogen?

      • bettykath says:

        leander, Yes, should there be something there, the next step would be validation.

    • Jun says:

      I am still under the contention that it is pointless material to search the twitter and facebook

      There is a possibility that she could have wrote something like that

      and there is a possibility of an endless numerous amount of different possibilities and does not necessarily mean it is true, hence there needing good reason for such subpoena or warrant to be granted, otherwise it is an infringement of privacy…

      If all he has is a maybe information from a bunch of conspiracy theories of the 3 Deedees, it is nonsense…

      What I am basically saying is that they have no good suspicion to even look or go there and it comes off as a big fishing expedition

      the phone records prove their conversation existed

      Even Nelson felt it truly was not necessary to have her twitter or whatever for a deposition

      It is obvious what Omara’s tactics will be, his goal is to smear and slander every witness and flex wild conspiracy theories about the liberal media and look for chances to get on TV, and try to make a buck doing so

  44. Xena says:

    Catching up here. Excellent post!!! It puts to rest all those Zidiot conspiracy theories concerning Witness 8. Thank you Lonnie, and professor. Some Zidiots are of the belief that without Witness 8, the case against GZ will be dismissed. I could only laugh at that because Witness 8 did not say GZ killed Trayvon. GZ said he killed Trayvon.

    • Trained Observer says:

      And Fogen, so intent on demonstrating is firearm skill with specificity, was the one yapping about positioning his gun and hand so that he wouldn’t shoot his own hand. (Even though he also claimed he wasn’t sure he’d shot his victim, which led to the charade of asking for help to hold Trayvon down and stating 911 didn’t need to be called.)

    • did you see the video just posted? it sounds like this guy who was banned from you tube for using the n word somany times.

      • Xena says:

        @shannon. Re: the posted video. When receiving notifications of comments via email, videos do not appear and I have to come directly to the blog and go through the page to see them. If that guy is a racial bigot nut, maybe his video will serve as a good birthday present for Mark O’Mara, whose birthday is today.

  45. Rachael says:

    Thank you both, Lonnie and Professor, for such a wonderful and informative post. I hope this slows down the rabid excrement trying so hard to figure out who she is, because I have to believe it wouldn’t matter so much who she is unless they have evil motives once they find out. I also hope they are being watched. BDLR even brought it up in court.

  46. TommysMom says:

    Great article,as usual. Now I have another question,are lawyers exempt from this law? If they are not why wasn’t Bozo charged after making claims of abuse against GA?

  47. gbrbsb says:

    Out of interest and backtracking to the previous post, according to my research SPD onlyreleased the 911 calls and more importantly for Dee Dee´s testimony, GZ´s NEN call for broadcast on the 16th March 2012 while according to Crump he only found out about DeeDee on the 18th March and interviewed her on the 19th, therefore the fact her story tallies in parts with both GZ´s and with some of the resident witnesses would go to show it was not a concocted story after the calls had been released.

    • gbrbsb says:

      meant to say:

      not a story concocted after the calls had been released.

    • groans says:

      @ gbrbsb: I’m confused. Couldn’t that suggest that she COULD possibly have heard the tapes in the two days before Crump interviewed her?

      (Not that I believe so one way or the other, or that it would matter that much. It certainly wouldn’t prove any concoction of a story, in my mind.)

  48. fauxmccoy says:

    i loved lonnie’s comment when i saw it come in through email and am delighted to see you expand upon it, prof.

    would you be so kind as to clue me in as to how the court will treat the witness any differently, being that she is a minor? i am sure that any attempt to badger her would be frowned upon by judge and jury, but is she afforded any special treatment?

    after listening to her statements, i worry for her on the stand. i am sure her folks are doing what is necessary in providing her representation for deposition. the fogen fan club is of course drooling in anticipation of o’mara ‘tearing her a new one’ which is abhorrent in concept. they of course have done everything possible to intimidate her thus far.

    my impression of her is that she is of course young, naive, and woefully inarticulate which all adds to my worry for her general well being, in addition to the horrible fact that she has lost her dear friend at such a tender age.

    i know it’s florida and their ‘sunshine laws’ prevail (largely) for better or worse. i worry about her being televised and her identity being made public. are there any special accommodations that can be made due to her age and vulnerability? i sure hope so but would love to hear your expert opinion.

    • I doubt she will be treated differently than any other witness.

      If she appears to be vulnerable and the defense gets nasty, I think Judge Nelson will stop it in a hurry because the rules of evidence prohibit mud slinging.

      Besides beating up on a young and vulnerable person generally angers a jury.

    • Dave says:

      DeeDee is a year older than she was when Trayvon was gunned down. That’s a long time for a teenager. I’ll bet she’s champing at the bit to help tear the killer a new one

      • nancybenefiel says:

        I agree with you. I also think she has told her story a good few times now and is not longer as intimidated as she was in the beginning. She and Trayvon were probably doing some pretty heavy flirting on the phone and she wasn’t comfortable talking about all of that to adults she didn’t know. I bet she’s not just furious about what they did to Trayvon but that she’s also pretty ticked about what they’ve said about her

    • aussie says:

      I suggest she wears a wig and glasses and strange makeup. Then throws them away when she’s given her evidence. Make sure there are no photos of her looking like her real self.

      Pity any other black girl who bought the same style of wig though, who gets followed by the jackals.

  49. Two sides to a story says:

    Also, what are Facebook and Twitter or any other social media sites likely to do when subpoenaed for this material? It’s not as if Witness 8 is a defendant.

    Personally, I believe GZLC is pandering to their supporters for donations by pursuing Witness 8 social media posts. Much of what the defense team is doing is theater for the paying supporters.

    • lurker says:

      I keep thinking that both FB and Twitter will mount a challenge of some kind–if nothing else keep stuff tied up in court for a good while. I don’t think either one is going to want to set a precedent of handing over client communication.

    • one of them i heard has refused to turn over records, so gz has to take em to court for them! good luck fighting the resources of a billion dollar company!!LOLO

      but we do know twitter deletes everything 60 days after an account is closed. so there’s nothing for defense to find there.
      just another waste of time and excuse to whine.

      • Xena says:

        @Shannon

        one of them i heard has refused to turn over records, so gz has to take em to court for them!

        That was Facebook, who informed O’Mara that they operate pursuant to federal law, and the law does not provide that they comply with subpoenas issued by a state court. Additionally, their terms and service only provide for complying with subpoenas issued by members of law enforcement. FB does not comply with subpoenas from defendants.

        In essence, they told O’Mara, “Take us to federal court where you still won’t get anything and have to pay our lawyer fees and costs.”

  50. Two sides to a story says:

    Professor, what agency will look into this matter? FBI? FDLE? Does the doxing victim have to file a complaint with law enforcement or will law enforcement investigate after public complaints? Do you think anything will be done about the many violations that seem to have occurred during this case?

    • The prosecution has to know what’s going on and must be monitoring the sitch.

      • racerrodig says:

        Professor…slightly off but somewhat relevant. In many States, like here in NJ, the rules regarding a minor witness are a little different than an adult as to how nasty they can be examined and cross examined.

        Would this be the case here or is it a case where they will try to beat here to death on the stand, which I have never seen work with a jury.

  51. kindheart101 says:

    Excellent!

    Thank you Lonnie and Professor.

  52. Funny, yet pertaining to the situation of zimbots and profiling..

    BTW Tom Mabe has some serious funny sh*t

  53. Tzar says:

    I sincerely hope that anyone who attempts to intimidate Dee Dee is prosecuted, convicted and sentenced to a lengthy prison term.

    Boy Howdy!!!

  54. Trained Observer says:

    Have been concerned about DeeDee, once her identity is exposed to the jackals. Am glad you’ve made it so clear on what might await those — including defense team members — who would smear her.

    • abbyj says:

      @TrainedObserver, I’ve also been gravely concerned with the release of any information about DeeDee’s identity. With confirmed accounts that the jackals have already spent months and months in attempts to track her down, it feels a given that they will not stop now. Any information of her identity would place her at risk. Her reputation–and that of her family–would certainly be smeared. That’s a given. Of greater concern is that her life is in danger. As you state, intimidation and risk to DeeDee isn’t just driven by the jackals; it’s also very much a part of the defense team.

      • looneydoone says:

        I see no reason why Dee Dee’s testimony cannot be heard in the same manner gz’s father and mother have appeared on national teevee programming…live video feed from an undisclosed location and her identity concealed from view.

        There was far less reason for Judge Lester having allowed telephone testimony from gz’s family during the first Bond hearing. Dee Dee would be exposed to great harm if made to appear in Court to testify

        • There’s a difference between testifying at trial and testifying behind a screen with your voice altered for a news show. DD and the Zims will have to testify like everyone else and be subject to cross examination.

      • kimmi says:

        I believe she has much more to be concerned about for her safety then Fogen ever did. That is just awful because she never asked for any of this, but Fogen did; by the choices he made when he got out of his shruck, following Trayvon and pulling the trigger.

      • looneydoone says:

        Professor,
        That’s a real bummer.
        I’ve seen defendants testifying from their hospital beds via video transmissions (arraignment)

        So, how does the Prosecution ensure Dee Dee’s continued safety ??

    • blushedbrown says:

      Excellent post as always. Thank you.
      Be Back later to comment.

      • blushedbrown says:

        Thank you also Lonnie !!!

      • Malisha says:

        Terrific article, fabulous work by Lonnie S, and excellent analysis, all of which we all know Judge Nelson knows, and all of which is extremely important. The outhousers are simply indulging in intimidation and displays of disdain, contempt and hatred for African Americans.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yes! ^^^^^

      • groans says:

        Well, here you go, folks. Those of you who have the stomach to venture on over to the Outhouse and other sites with disgusting commenters. Just tell them:

        Since Dee Dee is a prosecution witness in a second degree murder case, those who seek to assassinate her character with false statements and innuendo are committing the crime of first degree witness intimidation.

        Intimidating a witness to a murder in Florida is first degree witness tampering punishable by a sentence of imprisonment of up to life in prison.

        (Hope the block quote works … it’s my first attempt! 😕 )

      • groans says:

        whooo-hoooo!

      • It seems to me that virtually everything DeeDee says is supported by some other evidence. She says TM is being followed by a “”creepy guy”, GZ says he was following TM. She says TM was afraid and took off. GZ said “$H!T, he’s running!” and left his truck. She says GZ was near his dad’s house and thought he lost “the creepy guy”. We know that’s true. She says Trayvon saw “the creepy guy” approaching and was too tired to run any more. She says that Trayvon stepped up and asked why he was being followed. GZ has pretty much ditched the phony “homie” thing and is saying this. She says that GZ replied “what are you doing here” Witness 11 (?) heard someone say just that. Then she says she heard TM say “get off me”/ There was a witness really early on who said that she saw GZ “attempting to arrest” TM and that TM was resisting. I don’t see how they can attack anything the girl said, it’s all got back up. Unless they really think her age and the exact nature of their relationship matters

    • FactsFirst says:

      me too..
      Love Lonnie’s comments! 5 Star great post as always Professor…

      • kimmi says:

        Yes, excellent Professor, and Lonnie. Thank you. Catching up…
        I feel so bad for DeeDee. Not only is her good friend dead, which I’m sure just learning about Trayvon’s murder was horrible enough. Then, to be brought into this terrible murder as an ‘ear’ witness, only to become cyber-stalked, threatened, and her reputation dragged through the mud. How awful for her to have to deal with all that, let alone re-live it, and feel so unable to have done anything to help…

    • nancybenefiel says:

      I am pretty new here and if I am ignoring protocol by posting something somewhat off topic, I apologize. I usually post over on HuffPo but there isn’t a lot of real discussion there and I want some opinions on this. If there is a better way to ask, please tell me.
      Is there any actual evidence supporting GZ’s claim that there was a fight between him and Trayvon? As I see it GZ could well have gotten his minor injuries when he slipped and fell earlier (when Autstin?Jeremy saw him alone on the ground) No one saw any fighting. No one actually heard anything except two voices arguing and then Trayvon screaming.
      The other thing that really bothers me and I have never seen mentioned is the way the blood on the back of GZ’s head seems to form a horizontal straight line at the top as if he had a cap on or something. That just doesn’t happen naturally.

      • kimmi says:

        There was no forensic evidence (blood) on Trayvon’s hands or sleeves, so GZ’s statement that Trayvon was covering/smothering his nose/mouth cannot be true, otherwise, imo, there should be blood on Trayvon’s hands or sleeves.
        There is a good video by LLMPapa showing that GZ could not have been on his back either, otherwise the bloodflow on the back of his head would not be traveling upward/sideways.
        There are several good video’s by LLMPapa on youtube, if you are interested.

      • camanokat says:

        Good to see you here!

      • Malisha says:

        That picture with the straight razor-cut line on the back of Fogen’s head is suspect in its entirety. Allegedly taken by a neighbor who was very obliging at some point after the death of Trayvon Martin but before the arrival of the cops, it seems to portray Fogen leaning forward, on a cell phone, while someone takes a quick flick of the back of his head. O’Mara did not want to comment on this picture. It was not, apparently, given to the police before it was handed over to ABC News as a “big exclusive” in the case. There are many things wrong with it. There are many things wrong with the whole injuries story. We will NEVER know the entire story unless one of the cops totally betrays his (or her) fellow officers and gives up the real story about the whole cover-up. At this point in time, though, it is not terribly important because:

        (a) Injuries to one party do not prove that the other party was the aggressor;

        (b) The injuries to Fogen were not properly documented at the scene of the crime or during the initial investigation; and

        (c) IF Trayvon Martin had hurt Fogen, it would have been justified because he was reasonably in fear of great bodily harm or death (and I would say VERY reasonably in fear of death).

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Trayvon mounted no assault on GZ of any kind, he stood there terrified as GZ did everything and finally shooting him for no reason.

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