What About that Missing GPS Data?

Wednesday, February 6, 2013

Leander said at 9:10 am today:

“Obviously, when Dee Dee made her statement she had heard GZ NEN call. We would have a much better scenario concerning her statements, had SPD done it’s job and interviewed her earlier. On the other hand, they had troubles to get at the phone due to the password. That’s the crux.”

I do not agree.

I do not believe Dee Dee had listened to the NEN call before Ben Crump interviewed her. IIRC, it was not released to the public until much later. The SPD had a lot of investigative work to do interviewing witnesses and processing the crime scene. If they even thought about it, checking the phone log probably would have been a low priority item on the to-do list, until after Ben Crump revealed that Dee Dee had been talking to Trayvon when the defendant stalked and assaulted him.

While it’s theoretically possible that the GPS data for the day of the murder might help the defense, I doubt that it does because we would have seen the defense lawyers congratulating their client and we would have seen him smiling or smirking at the news.

Instead, we saw gloom, doom, resignation, desperation and a visible dislike for the client that is more consistent with bad news for the defense. I cannot imagine that MOM would have failed to mention that the GPS data exculpated the defendant, given his propensity to try the case in the court of public opinion. He would have mentioned it in support of his argument for a continuance, if it existed, instead of waving around an insignificant bar-chart during an extemporaneous and rambling plea for a continuance.

He did not give a coherent answer when she put him on the spot and asked him to provide a specific reason why he needed a continuance. The best he could do was to squeak about not having any experts even though the defense team’s mismanagement of funds is the reason why it has no money to hire experts.

If the GPS data did not exist, or if it were uninterpretable, I think BDLR would have disclosed that in open court to Judge Nelson, defense counsel and the public. He did not do that. Instead, he graciously offered “to connect the dots” for the defense, but they did not rise to the bait.

That tells me the GPS data hurts the defense, badly.

The only reason that I can think of to explain why no one touched this issue and the body language of the defense team, including the lawyers turning their backs on the defendant and leaving him behind sitting forlornly at counsel table as they left the courtroom, is that the evidence devastates his story.

To his credit, I think BDLR resisted the urge to play “Gotcha” and I respect him for that.

He has the trump card. He knows he has it, and the defendant knows it too.

Now, we do too.

The defense team is up the proverbial creek without a paddle, unless the skies suddenly open releasing a downpour of dollars into the defense coffers. I recommend not betting the ranch that will happen.

The defendant is indigent or soon will be. He cannot adequately prepare for trial without an investigator and multiple experts. They do not work for free and he cannot afford them.

Under these circumstances, his lawyers need to file a motion asking Judge Nelson to find him indigent and sign an order allowing him to proceed in forma pauperis.

The sooner the better.

Unless, of course, the defendant pleads guilty.

572 Responses to What About that Missing GPS Data?

  1. onlyiamunitron says:

    “I do not believe Dee Dee had listened to the NEN call before Ben Crump interviewed her. IIRC, it was not released to the public until much later.”

    The calls, both the NEN call and the 911 calls, were released on March 16th.

    On March 20th, after Wolfinger announced he was sending the case to the grand jury, Crump held a press conference and announced that he had interviewed the young lady the day before.

    Whether she heard any of the calls prior to that I have no idea, but it would have been possible.


    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Hearing the NeN and 911 tapes wouldn’t be of any assistance to anyone in the little time given. No one, less DD and Crump, could have listened to those tapes and figured out what to say to fashion a credible story of either innocence or guilt for anyone. By June, hundreds of bloggers on the net, working with transcripts, videos stop watches and people of various disciplines with a variety of skills, had not figured out what the data actually meant.

      Imagine, for example, what a falsely contrived DD story would have been, using the then understood evidence. Where GZ had claimed to have spotted TM by Taaffe’s and had him entering via that cut through. By now there would be such a bunch of anomalies in DD’s story we’d have to throw the whole thing out as too unreliable. While instead, after we’ve learned that the cctv’s were 18 minutes off and corrected for that, and we learned that GZ truck only comes into view, several minutes after TM is at the mailboxes, and still DD’s story holds up. Even words she related early on are confirmed later by a witness.

      So, no one reading the blogs is going to believe that anyone could have figured out what to say, simply by having early access to any of the tapes. What had happened wasn’t known and could not have been figured out in even a few weeks, let alone days, after the tapes were released. No one could figure out how to coach DD, because no one, not even DD nor Crump, knew what had happened. All DD could do was faithfully report what she had heard and her impressions of what Trayvon was telling her, based on what she knew about him.

      So there’s no reason to waste any time deposing Crump, he could not have influenced DD’s testimony in any way. If anyone is to be deposed, it should be O’Mara, since he may have known about GZ’s money before Shelly lied.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        “Hearing the NeN and 911 tapes wouldn’t be of any assistance to anyone in the little time given.”

        Never said they would.

        “No one, less DD and Crump, could have listened to those tapes and figured out what to say to fashion a credible story of either innocence or guilt for anyone.”

        Never said they could.

        I just said that, contrary to the assertions of others, she could have heard the recordings prior to being interviewed by Crump.

        Never said a thing about whether that would or could have influenced anything.


        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I understood that. But my point was that; if she had heard those tapes, they probably would have hurt her credibility more than they could ever help her. If she had tried, for example, to tag her claim of TM running to GZ saying he ran, her story would have become distorted, because GZ’s conversation with Sean was not truthful.
          Thank heavens she probably had no interest in the legal case at that time, so she would not have been reading the newspapers or seeking out blogs on the web. Or surfing to look for court documents. So, she probably never heard those tapes by that time and it’s a blessing that she didn’t.

          • onlyiamunitron says:

            My point is that the contention that the calls weren’t released until after Crump interviewed her is incorrect and should not stand unchallenged.

            Calender trumps opinion.


  2. xy11xy says:

    If the GPS data did not exist, or if it were uninterpretable, I think BDLR would have disclosed that in open court to Judge Nelson, defense counsel and the public. He did not do that. Instead, he graciously offered “to connect the dots” for the defense, but they did not rise to the bait.

    That tells me the GPS data hurts the defense, badly.

    The only reason that I can think of to explain why no one touched this issue and the body language of the defense team, including the lawyers turning their backs on the defendant and leaving him behind sitting forlornly at counsel table as they left the courtroom, is that the evidence devastates his story.

    Wow. That took my breath away.

    Someone told me GZ was weeping at the end. I watched the hearing again, but a woman was blocking the view while George had his hand to his face. I asked myself why would he cry now, when he’s been so calm all along. What you’ve said here is reason to cry.

    As for the lawyers’ coldness toward George: George has that effect on lawyers. When his former attorneys called that presser and basically screwed him, I thought he must have done something so egregious, must have screwed them over royally, for them not to contain themselves. I think what we saw at the presser was only the tip of a very large iceberg….so maybe they really WERE containing themselves!

  3. xy11xy says:

    Not checking the phone seems like lousy police work to me. What do teenagers do but talk all day on the phone? Also, I think the headphones were found lying beside him, and probably snaking into his pocket…now, there’s a clue!

    And why wouldn’t a teenager have car keys or a house key on him? Surely he must live within walking distance, where someone is waiting to let him into the house…

    The unopened soda pop and the candy are obvious recent purchases. This was a kid who went to the store.

    I can’t understand why the cops didn’t knock on every door along that corridor of houses to ask if someone was missing a child.

    Maybe they didn’t WANT to know.

    The slight delay helped George, because if Trayvon’s brother or father had said that night Yes, that’s my brother, or son. He just went to the store!” There’s no way they could have justified not arresting George that night.

    Once they let him go that night, it became easier to continue letting him go free.

  4. groans says:

    BTW, in case anyone wants to watch the 2/5/2013 hearing in a single video, without any ongoing commentary, see manybuddies YouTube channel at:

  5. colin black says:

    ok will do fauxmccoy

  6. colin black says:

    Now the goverment in America aster 9 11
    Can record moniter an store your call conversations.
    But I doubt foggen was on homeland securitys radar.

    Will be now though
    Along with his buddy oysterman dropping pearls of wisdom into his shell likes.

  7. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I know that the gz’s wrist control of Trayvon has been discussed, so the following is just for you to copy and file, or whatever:

    Wrist control is a “hold” technique.

    Here is a link with a person demonstrating various wrist control techniques:


    Here is the transcript from Investigator Serino’s interview (Tape 1- February 29, 2012) with gz:

    Serino: Compact? And you were able to overpower him as far as holding his wrist, you gained wrist…we call it wrist control…you gained wrist control on him basically, and you were able to basically liberate both hands…
    Zimmerman: Yes, sir.


    Serino: OK. You raised it up. Do you remember hitting him with the pistol?
    Zimmerman: No, sir.
    Serino: Distance wise…
    Zimmerman: I just remember not wanting to hit my own hand, I was holding his, it went past my hand, my body.


    Here is the audio of this interview:

    Click>Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino on February 29 (Part 1)

    Here, you can see that gz emphasized that gz was holding Trayvon’s hand and, in fact had so much control of Trayvon that gz had the time and control to carefully avoid hitting his own hand as he fired his gun at Trayvon’s heart.

    • esentrick says:

      Here, you can see that gz emphasized that gz was holding Trayvon’s hand and, in fact had so much control of Trayvon that gz had the time and control to carefully avoid hitting his own hand as he fired his gun at Trayvon’s heart.

      Great point TAHTC..MOM contends that the butcher had no duty to retreat because he was “suffering blows” by Trayvon. However, if he had time to take control prior to shooting, then he was no longer in danger, which makes his SD claim null and void!

  8. colin black says:

    mountainmanpat says:

    February 7, 2013 at 8:45 am

    Good call Rod……if any of fogens calls prior to or after the murder contained anything like the N word and such………Chest waders wouldn’t help him through the hate crime aspect

    We might see phonecall data.
    But we wont know what was said dureing those calls
    Not unless for some reason a message went to answer service.
    Or for some reason the call was being recorded.
    Phone companys are not allowed to moniter tape an store your call data.
    We mi8ght be able to veiw any texting data that took place before an after the murder.
    But we will never no who said what re any phone calls placed round an about time of offence happening.
    G P S if data available will be more than enough to sink the tugboat.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Certainly don’t know, nor am I suggesting possibility, but am definitely wondering: Any chance FDLE or the feds put a tap on Fogen’s phone during the period after the shooting and during run-up to his arrest? AnyFogen conversations during that period might have been doozys.

      • Xena says:

        @Trained Observer. The feds are very thorough and in non-violent crimes, very patient. Chances are they received warrants to tap GZ’s phone, track his internet usage, and place video surveillance wherever he resides. Remember the former Governor Blago case where the feds taped his phone conversations?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      word on the street is that his text messages regarding the case are damning.

      i have yet to actually greet you colin and would like to fix that. although i can be somewhat of a grammar/spelling nazi when i choose, i must say i LOVE your posts. they are real, they are genuine, they are true and they are brilliant.

      my family left scotland around 1700 to come to ‘merica, but as pioneers we lived such isolated lives herding sheep across this great country until about 1950 when my father moved to california, it is eerie just how much of the scottish vocabulary and customs we retained. so until i can get there myself, please, kiss the homeland for me.

  9. colin black says:

    truthseeker66 says:

    February 6, 2013 at 2:25 pm

    He changed his tone. He does not want anyone disparaging TM, his family will not stand for it, really? He acknowledge TM b-day.


    He said that………?
    Dont normaly watch either him or Peer Morgan the pisstake.
    An both together ARGGGGH
    But I cant beleive the insincerty hypicrite sprewing from weezee jr.

    The other week he guested on a radio show.
    The host stated on three differenc occasions .

    That Trayvon whom he called that little Nword boy needed to die.

    An this imbicile has the nerve to state he wont stand for anyone dissspariging the Martins.

    Hey numbnuts weezjr we know you read here.
    What do you think hunting there son down lin the dark.
    An shooting a bullet through his chest within sight of his own back porch.
    Your Decenct MERICAN brother wasnt within sight of his truchk never mind his home he squated at rent free,
    If thats not disspariging behaviour towards the Martin Family ie executing there son.
    Whom by the way was a Decent American an a bona fide hero.
    In LIFE.
    An also in DEATH.

  10. Judy75201 says:

    I just have to say, I e-love all you people who tirelessly fight for Trayvon and justice.

    There, I said it.

  11. blushedbrown says:


    Who’s depo is being taken?

    Can’t find anything on Gzlegal or here http ://www.flcourts18.org/presspublic.html

    Any info would be greatly appreciated, TIA.

  12. blushedbrown says:


    Video is outstanding. I really wondered if the state is subscribed to your channel. I hope they are. Papa you are invaluable. The state really needs to do some independent consulting with you.

  13. Lonnie Starr says:

    |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

  14. gbrbsb says:

    Interesting bit of news from yesterday but I don´t know if already posted (link below)… Wish I could have seen the interview but it appears Hannity is lending a hand to MOM & GZ to get more dollars as well as spike up the “unfair”, “racial”, “rush to judgement” claims… In my book, the “rush to judgement” was GZ´s when without due process presumed Trayvon “was up to no good”…


    • jm says:

      Hannity is an idiot playing to his audience of knee jerk conservative wing-nuts. He should be embarrassed to show his face after that disastrous interview with GZ where he inadvertently exposed GZ’s lack of remorse and regret and his lies and stupidity.

      I can’t wait for the trial to expose GZ’s lies to the idiots who believe Trayvon was a thug who deserved to die and GZ was a helpless victim who needed to kill him.

    • Good link….TY 🙂

      • Eric says:

        This is too funny. MOM has gone from being a lawyer to being a panhandling prostitute. GZ isn’t a client/defendent, he’s a pimp!

      • roderick2012 says:

        Eric says:This is too funny. MOM has gone from being a lawyer to being a panhandling prostitute. GZ isn’t a client/defendent, he’s a pimp!


        The next time O’Mara asks to postpone the trial Bernie better have a list of all of the media appearances that O’Mara has made to prove that he had enough time to get his mug in front of the cameras but not enough time to prepare for this case.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Thanks for link. Don’t (and won’t) pretend to know the finer points, but there are rules for Florida Bar member conduct. Can’t help but think the Bar should be concerned about this sort of television/Internet panhandling by any of its members. .

      • lurker says:

        I just watched the Hannity video. I would suggest that O’Mara has no problem lying when not under oath–or perhaps he has walked a careful line of not bothering to confirm some things that George has said–specific to his mentoring of young black kids (for 6 months after the program shut down–convenient that there is no org left to contact) and his “leading role” in support of the homeless black man who was beat up by a policeman’s kid. I do recall some reporters trying to chase down details with regard to Zimmerman’s supposed role in that case–and couldn’t find anyone who WAS involved who had ever met him or had any memory of anyone who MIGHT have been him.

        Pretty pure propaganda dished out to someone who was guaranteed to ask softball questions.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          to be very clear, the homeless man was sherman ware. ware’s attorney was natalie jackson of crump’s law firm. jackson has no recollection of fogen whatsoever until her current involvement on behalf of the martin family.

          beyond that, the very thought that the local black community ‘needed’ fogen to contact the NAACP on their behalf is ludicrous and insulting.

        • Xena says:


          Pretty pure propaganda dished out to someone who was guaranteed to ask softball questions.

          O’Mara, IMO, sounds like someone trying to paint Adolph Hitler as the man of many good accomplishments in order to not concentrate on what he did to, and leading to, his crimes upon humanity. Yeah — like John Wayne Gacy playing a clown for the kiddies and doing good things for the community. Also like Gacy, he raised a defense that his victims were all run-a-ways or male prostitutes — caused their own deaths by their life-styles. Gacy was still given the needle. So shall GZ be found guilty and sentenced to life in prison.

    • whonoze says:

      Of course, Hannity could fund the defense himself with his pocket change. I’d like to think he’s a hypocrite who won’t put his money where his mouth is, but Fox probably has a policy against that sort of thing. (A small political donation got Keith Olbemann in trouble at MSNBC… but Olbermann and his bosses were already having tiffs over a variety of stuff, so that may have just been an excuse to push him toward the door.)

      But the various well-heeled right-wing bloviators who are not (or no longer) on Fox could pony up for GZ: calling Dick Morris, Sarah Palin and Glen Beck! George needs cash!

      To paraphrase Warren Zevon:

      I went patrolling near Orlando
      I took a little risk
      Send lawyers guns and money
      Sean, get me out of this

  15. This may be slightly off topic.

    Ya’ll know I’m a supporter of gun rights…

    One of the things I AM NOT a supporter of is gun stupidity….

    Any of you that read about the wildfires in Co last summer?….the Springer fire was about 11 miles south of my place…..started by?…….get this….2 yahoo’s shooting at a propane tank….They got them,

    Yet 4500 acres of beautiful Colorado wilderness will take generations to recover. 😦

    • fauxmccoy says:

      tragic, pat.

      it’s rough sometimes being as liberal as the day is long and strongly support the 2A. where i grew up on a very isolated cattle ranch, it was a necessary tool to protect our livelihood, along with our lives and property. i was taught at a young age how to shoot but to respect the gun as much (well more) than i did the electric fences or irrigation ditches. i will say that crawling through a full head of water in the ditch while ducking electric fences to change the water head over to the neighbor was a risky proposition as well.

      i have no tolerance for stupid with firearms, which is exactly how i see fogen. anyone fighting the demons in his own head as he did is too damn dumb to be carrying, in my ever so humble opinion.

      • Did U read a few years ago about some Aussie that thought it would be funny to piss on a 220v electric fence?……..complete with pictures….his little twanger blackened as if by frostbite….and dropped off……..Stupidity knows no bounds,.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i did miss that, but stupidity knows no bounds. clearly nobody had the foresight to protect his foreskin from the dangers of electricity. those fences keep some pretty big beasties in line, they are not just for show.

        • kindheart101 says:


          What a great video for an early morning laugh. Then I read this post, and almost fell out of my chair. LOL

    • Trained Observer says:

      Just awful, mountainmanpat. Must remember your phrasing “supporter of gun rights, but not gun stupidity.” That pretty much covers it.

  16. I think there is more on the phone than just GPS information. Just a gut feeling.

    • Malisha says:

      I agree. The phone stuff, on both sides, is incendiary and I believe both the state and the defense would rather it not be publicized.

      • roderick2012 says:

        Malisha: The phone stuff, on both sides, is incendiary

        I don’t understand your reasoning.

        Nothing on Trayvon’s phone except the GPS data texts related to the shooting would be allowed.

        As for George anything incediary would be a confession of some sort or some racial slurs which would be investigated by the DOJ to decide if it is related to the shooting and would warrant a hate crime charge against George.

        • Good call Rod……if any of fogens calls prior to or after the murder contained anything like the N word and such………Chest waders wouldn’t help him through the hate crime aspect

      • Eric says:

        Malisha, other than GPS, what do you think the phone records could show that would be incendiary? I’m just wondeing why the defense wants them to be hush hush until trial. I doubt that any of Fogens text messages(if there are any)lay out intent. If they did that should have resulted in a 1st degree murder charge. So, what gives? Any ideas?

      • roderick2012 says:

        I guess I should have stated ‘should be allowed’ because we know how screwed up Florida law is.

        But if Trayvon’s phone records before the day of the shooting are allowed then how far back would the prosecution be allowed to go back to look at George’s?

        This whole tit-for-tat crap that was started by the Treethugs is getting tiresome.

        It’s just a big game to distract from the mountain of evidence that the State has against George and I wish that Judge Nelson would put a stop to it.

        She gave O’Mara access to the credit card records so that O’Mara can question the buyers as to if they bought the cigar for Trayvon and then what?

        I guess the moral of this story is if you buy anything you should pay cash otherwise you may end up in the middle of a murder investigation because a defense lawyer is desperate to change the subject.

        And so what if Trayvon did pay for or asked those guys to buy a cigar for him?

        How would they equate that to someone who start an altercation when the defendant is on tape stating that Trayvon ran?

        It seems to reinforce the idea that Trayvon was in a mindset of taking his snacks home, eating them while he watched the game, and having a smoke afterwards.

        And besides most normal people if they had been in George’s shoes would not have gotten out of his vehicle and followed Trayvon after he had Trayvon run even if they assumed that he ran because he was guilty.

        Most people (even racists) would have patted themselves on the back and told themselves ‘that they made that n–word run away’ waited for the police to arrive, given the police a description of the ‘suspect’ and gone on to Target and called it a day.

      • roderick2012 says:

        I meant ‘should not be allowed’

        I swear one day I will start drinking coffee.

      • Tzar says:

        allegedly fogen made derogatory remarks of the racial variety about the martins

        IIRC correctly this was hinted at by BLDR in his cross of fogen during the bail hearing. and was hinted at in a few news articles way back when

      • Malisha says:

        Roderick, I was thinking that it is still possible that Trayvon tried to call 911, which would be incendiary because of the SPD part in this killing. Naturally, I agree with you that Fogen’s phone is probably the “Mark Furhman” of this trial.

  17. Dan Q. Smith says:

    All I can say is Fogen’s supporters really have a hard time with DeeDee. They just can’t stand it that Trayvon was on the phone with someone when Fogen assaulted him. Ha, ha, ha. Too bad, so sad!

  18. Playing ‘Games’ with Trayvon Martin’s image


    Writing about the ‘rabid’ hate aimed at Trayvon Martin seems only to generate more hate. The view that the unarmed 17-year-old killed by George Zimmerman nearly a year ago was a thug who deserved to die is as strong as ever.

    • Rachael says:

      Good article.

    • Jun says:

      Where do they find these idiots that buy the thug story?

      Clearly, the only person with a violent and gang and criminal history is the defendant


      It was a kid who only had Skittles and Ice Tea, and a cellphone and $40… the kid had no history of anything criminal or thuggery… the victim is

      I’d like that list, because I have a bridge to sell them

    • Eric says:

      I read some of the comments in the Capehart article and just had to laugh. There’s a poster named Tanya who is just silly. I’m not certain but I think she used to post at Marinade Dave’s blog. She has the most interesting take on the evidence and what it proves. There’s another poster(I forget his name)who claims that Martin was BIG, and STRONG,STRAPPING and very POWERFUL! Another poster gave Martins height and weight, and the response from the first poster was that Trayvons muscle was “lean” so therefore Trayvon was deceptively POWERFUL. I clicked off after shaking my damn head. The GZ supporters are delusional beyond belief.

      What I find interesting about those people is that they claim to hate the “mainstream liberal media” but can’t seem to stay away from the “mainstream liberal media”

      • fauxmccoy says:

        oh eric, that’s just funny. i remember correcting someone on the huff post who tried to argue that trayvon was the same size as mike tyson in his prime. oh yeah? i countered? i do not believe tyson entered the ring at 5’11” and 158 pounds. i assured him that as a woman i had more muscle mass than that. silly, silly people.

      • Trained Observer says:

        If Trayvon’s muscle is lean, therefore powerful, then can we assume Fogen’s lard is mushy, therefore weak and innocent?

        • fauxmccoy says:

          perhaps it was just confusion for them with their conflicting theories and new found love of recipes for ‘lean’ … who knows? i do my best to not enter that world and even attempt to try to think as they do.

  19. OMG…..I just had a terrible thought……

    A “Zimmermans” reality TV show 😦

    • jm says:

      I think a Zimmerman’s reality TV show is probably being negotiated now by Junior – anything to keep his face on camera.

      • Chick magnet?………………………..Naw 😦

      • Xena says:

        @jm. They can titled it “Denial.” Ads will have Junior saying, “My family isn’t racist, but all of our friends are.”

      • Looolooo says:

        RZJ and Renee Stuzman can get a moring talk show on Faux News.

        He’s doing everything he can to get his lil bro sent up the river to do a stretch in the jug. If Fogen’s aquitted, the media will be after him, and not RZJ. He’s putting on an unconvincing act. He does NOT care about his brother, he’s competition. He cares about himself and only himself.

        And what’s up with the Zimmerman clan not extending their hospitality to Fogen? Since they’re all the targets of would be assins, why not bunk under one roof and cut security costs to boot?

    • Xena says:

      @MMP. You mean re-runs of Archie Bunker?

      • Sally Struthers looked a hell of a lot better than shellie does now. :\

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i will never forget my younger brother who would not even remember struthers from ‘all in the family’ yelling at her on tv one day ‘of course those kids are starving, sally! you’re eating all their food!’ he was young, but i must admit i laughed.

      • whonoze says:

        Archie Bunker was a bigoted working class conservative who spouted a lot of BS, but never hurt anyone, loved his family, and usually treated people decently in terms of his actions if not his words. The Zimmermans are the opposite. Genuinely hateful folk who maintain a veneer of upper-middle-class politese over a bedrock of truly venal behaviors. Archie carried a lunch pail, not a Kel-Tec. And he wasn’t a sociopath.

        But some kind of reality show thing could happen i suppose: If Jr. wants to stay in the the media spotlight after the trial he could marry Kim Kardashian. That would get on TV.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          we should also not forget that ‘all in the family’ was satire as conceived by norman lear, who as a jewish tv mogul, wrote scripts that actually confronted racism, although through a prism that was not always discernible. compare it to the colbert report today.

          • blushedbrown says:

            You beat me to it. Alot of people don’t know that.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            great minds think alike 😉 it’s no surprise that hard core conservatives either do not ‘get’ colbert, or funnier yet give him two thumbs up. ‘all in the family’ served the same function, forty years ago.

          • blushedbrown says:


            Exactly! Remember how when the Jefferson’s were introduced. I will never forget that episode. It really dealt with issues in relation to the times. Blacks moving into a “all white neighborhood”. Edith’s response to Lionel. Great social experiment on TV if you ask me.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @ blushed – i do remember that. i was quite young, but blessed with progressive, free thinking parents who taught me the power of satire at a young age. it is one of the tools i use as often as possible and have lear and my folks to thank. 🙂

          • blushedbrown says:


            I was young too, but had a very smart aunt who explained things quite well. I learned alot from her. 🙂

        • Xena says:


          Archie carried a lunch pail, not a Kel-Tec. And he wasn’t a sociopath.

          Okay. I have to give you that. The Zimmermans do seem to have an attitude of being better than others, even to the point believing that GZ is above the law. Even Papa Zim went to investigators and asked that they “make this go away.”

          But some kind of reality show thing could happen i suppose: If Jr. wants to stay in the the media spotlight after the trial he could marry Kim Kardashian. That would get on TV.

          Uh — it would have to be a man for Junior. Now, I could care less about his sexual orientation, but it does surprise me that those conservatives and bigots supporting him would otherwise condemn him if he was not talking against Blacks.

      • Malisha says:

        My favorite little clip from Archie Bunker was Archie and his wife shopping and she was picking up cans of beans and shaking them close to her ear before deciding which one to buy. He wanted to know why she did that and she said to get the can with the most beans in it. He did that weird body-language thing he did for frustration and then brought his hands up and said, “But they don’t make noise when they’re still IN THE CAN!”

      • Rachael says:

        LOL @ Whonoze, what a blessing to wake up to you. You made me laugh so hard.

  20. Xena says:

    You guys certainly know how to swell my head, make me kick my hills, and put a smile in my heart that will last until the end of time. I just got back from dinner and began catching up reading comments but have not yet finished. At the risk of forgetting to name someone, I will say thanks to all of you for the birthday wishes. However, I do want to name some names because for me, it not only shows the grace and friendships I have here, but also just how many people participate. The names are in the order in which I read the messages.

    Professor Leatherman
    Trina Cosbie
    Cercando Luce
    Deborah Garner Moore
    Two sides to a story
    SouthernGirl 2

    May all good wishes you sent my way multiply and return to you.

    Hoodies Up!

  21. kindheart101 says:

    OK, It’s time to call it a night.

    Happy Birthday again Xena, what a wonderful person you are, I hope you had a great day.

    Peace. I’ll see all of you tomorrow.

    Justice for Trayvon!

  22. Testing, testing. There is a problem with videos at the site right now, so I am going to try to post some music just to see:

  23. Happy Birthday, Xena.

    You are a godsend.

  24. colin black says:

    G P S is info bounced of sattalites
    The militry use it to strike targets upmto fifty miles away.
    Cars have gps systems that talk an direct you to your destination,
    Loan Sailors navigate around the globe withe gps
    Sattalites that can beam your exCT CORDANATES WITHIN INCHES ANYWHERE ON EARTH,

    An smartphones an ipods /tablets /every device thats mADE BY AN it Compamy has then installed as standarts . even im pc an probably have gps in our socks an shoes next.,

    • towerflower says:

      GPS is also in aviation, approaches and navigation. They eventually want to replace radar with GPS, which I have always questioned that due to how solar storms can effect the signal or even destroy satellites.

  25. colin black says:

    Fight Fan says:

    February 6, 2013 at 11:36 am

    has GPS gotten better? I’ve seen it used in cases to triangulate a general area, like acres or blocks but not a pinpoint.

    Sorry if someone has answered this already.
    I think your confuseing phone pings of Micro Wave Phone Masts,
    Thease pin point use to within Half Mile radius.

    Or untill vechicle is recovered..

    An a phone with gps can in theory be traced as to its exact movements on any given day if equiped with this app or capability..

  26. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Why do I just see blank spots where the videos were posted? Do I have a bug?

  27. OK……I’m gettin’ a little befuddled here….I just finished watching zim jr on Piers…..Questions

    1. did fogen ever purchase a weapon himself? shellies was used in the murder…..never heard of fogen having to surrender his weapon…& BFF Oman LOANED him a firearm.

    2. Did or did not fogen have a LEGAL CCW?.

    A. never had it?
    B. he had it only because of a paperwork screwup?

    Yet his brother is doing all this talk about CRIMINALS and guns……WTF?

    I was cyber slapping the sh*t out of him thinking I’m gonna buy this sh*t…..


    • kindheart101 says:


      Jr. grates on my last nerve.

      • Ya know you make me feel better knowing that someone like you feesl just about the same way………Damn…….let one of the zimbots talk that sh*t in my face?…..well?

        I have one lives down the mountain from me……..Haven’t spoken to him since May now……..As yeah YAHTC…..still haven’t talked. :}

      • kindheart101 says:


        I try to always be fair, and never judge. But, there comes a time when I can only take so much. Fogens lies, deceit, and the gull of his family sends me over the edge! I am not always nice when I visit the HP threads. I am out spoken, speak my mind, and let them know exactly what I think of them. I will NOT bow down to them! I will always stand for JUSTICE.

        • YOU? OUTSPOKEN? 🙂

          Seems I’ve been the one to get involved in some sh*t here….. 😦

          I AM very opinionated…..and I give the right to others to have their opinions….AS LONG as I’m not expected to go along with theirs……

          A few people here I met at newsvines team Trayvon……I have to stay away from those sights…I was getting into cyber battles with the nitwit zimbots…..all it did was serve to make me angry……Some of you are still there fightin’ the fight…….What’s the point? they’re idiots.

          Naw I think I’m a little more opinionated…as in


          • kindheart101 says:


            If I believe in a cause, or see outright lies, (like are posted on HP) I will fight to the death. I have gone up against all of them, lost my account, made another one, and I still return. I encourage my friends there to come visit us, and I meet the Fogen supporters with pure disgust. I call LJP (PapaZ), and Mac (Jr.), and I don’t back down. I REFUSE to let them make me feel uncomfortable on the thread! I walk in, speak my peace, and flag them at will. I have flagged, even Law Firms, for hours, and ultimately won. (The post was removed) No one makes up MY MIND for me what I do, or do not, believe.

          • Too bad I’m in a relationship…….U sound like my kind of woman 🙂

          • kindheart101 says:


            I have lived alone for over 13 years. My relationships are with my cats, nature and friends. I lived a very high profile life for over 30 years, and now I am happy to just be me.

            I love your new picture. It takes me home. Please name your next “rebel” deer Kindheart? 🙂

          • I have no problem being alone….One has to be comfortable with themselves to do it……Many times I have backpacked off into the canyons or forests for days…..just by my lonesome….5 days once without seeing another human.

            I told you of the spike Buck that’s already shed one antler….calling him Unibuck?

            I was corrected by the guy at the feed store today……It’s a Duck

            Half Doe…..Half Buck…..DUCK 🙂

            You’re poetry reading assignments for the night (found on poemhunter.com)

            1. Robert Service “Cheer”

            2. “”””””””””””””””” “Home & Love”

            3. “”””””””””””””””” “Comfort”

            I expect a report on the above by this time tomorrow 🙂

          • kindheart101 says:


            Yes Sir, my pleasure, will do.

            Good night.

          • kindheart101 says:


            Cheer: No matter what one’s trials and tribulations are, they are insignificant in respect to our “Personal Space,” (Our Home) and those we hold dear. “Yes, it’s a mighty good world after all.”

            Home and Love: Like the old saying goes: A house is a dwelling, and only becomes a “Home” when the light of Love is present within it’s walls. “Love”, to me, is anything that touches your heart. (Family, children, friends, pets, pictures, memories, hobbies……..etc., etc.) When you carry “Love” in your heart, any place can be claimed as your “Home.”

            Comfort: I think of the Circle of Life. Need we always be so self serving, self absorbed, that the beauty around us is not appreciated, acknowledged or respected? Not everything in our life can be “Made Well.” Yet, Nature, “The Well of Life,” is always there to “Comfort” us.

            My friend will be here shortly, and we are heading up to the mountains. I have a friend that lives north of Asheville, on a small ridge in the Smoky’s. I haven’t been there for years, and I can’t wait to sit outside and marvel at the view!

            Take Care,
            I’ll talk to you soon.

          • EXACTLY the way I understand them Kind

            Now go and have urself a GREAT time 🙂

      • Malisha says:

        Mountainman Pat, just because Fogen is guilty of murder does not mean that he is not innocent. He might be innocent of, say, fraud…oh well, not fraud but…he might be innocent of sexual assault…oops, well, he might be innocent of…well maybe he’s innocent of driving without a license or something. There MUST be SOMETHING! I mean, think of the odds!

      • abbyj says:

        @kindheart, Hi & good wishes to you. Jr. drives me to distraction, too. He’s ready to pontificate on every subject of the day: politics, gun control, race relations. He’s been angling for a “sit down” [his words] with his friend, Piers. Eager to get together, too, with Rand Paul, to hammer out “policy.” No one has the heart to break it to Jr. that he’s a walking megalomaniac of a dumb sh*t. Kindheart, break it to him slowly. Peace, friend.

      • Looolooo says:

        Saw RZJ the same night as the hearing, on Piers and on Breitbart. On Piers Morgan he consistantly blamed various balaack people for spreading racial hatred and tensions causing his brother, family and himself to fear for their safety. And on Breitbart, he specifically blamed Pres. Obama for spreading hatred, lies, and using his presidential influence to block his brothers continuance. WTF!!

        I believe RZJ to be even more dangerous than Fogen. His mental disfunctions are even more pronounced and focused. And I don’t for one second believe that he cares about his brother, or wants to help prevent his brother from spending any time at all in prison. It would actually be better for him (which is all the matters) if Fogen is sent to prison. Then he’d be free to do all the interviews, write books, and embelish as he pleases, etc. If Fogen is aquitted, he himself will get all of the media attention…. and not his demented big bro. He simply wants to compete with his brother, and grab as much of his attention and thunder as he possibly can. I seriously doubt that they’ve even spoken recently. He’s making things up as he goes along. Notice how he always inserts himself into the matter. He knows exactly what Fogen’s thinking because he’s his brother. Really? He’s a scociopathic-narcissist.

        Fogen and his brother (possibly their sister also) have and have had documented mental disorders most of their lives (likely inhereted from their father), and their parents know this. I believe they’ve tried to get help for them in the past, but have failed. Mentally ill people rarely follow through with treatment.

        • Loooo

          Makes perfect sense.

          Your comment about the mentally ill?……One of the reasons many don’t seek or continue treatment is due to the stigma & discrimination……The same with the handicapped, benefited by the fact that their disability is generally visible…..not so with the mentally ill.

          Why all these ads on TV for antidepressants?………I mean not quite on the same par with detergent & shampoo? Unless the whole countries nuts?

    • Trina Cosbie says:

      I’m not well versed with firearms laws, so maybe someone can answer this for me. Can u possess & or use(fire/shoot) anyone’s gun as long as u have a ccw permit or does it have to be your registered gun only?

      • Trina…..I don’t know about Fla’s laws…..Colorado is an “Open Carry” state meaning as long it is legal for one to own a firearm….one can walk down the street with a pistol on their hip…..entirely legal…….sharing weapons? As long as the one you’re sharing it with has the same firearms rights you do….THAT’s where I think the catch is with it being shellies weapon….AND he had no weapon of his own as he borrowed ostermans?

        So basically….every time he carried a pistol it was shellies?….How could it be any other way?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Does anyone have a link to the info saying that it was Shellie’s gun that was used by George that night?

      • Dave says:

        When one buys a gun from a dealer he shows his Driver’s license, fills out a questionaire (Form 4473) with his personal information and whether he is a convicted felon, adjudged mentally incompetent, dishonorably discharged from the military etc. The dealer then contacts the FBI who run a background check on the buyer. This is done by phone and takes a few minutes. if everything is OK the buyer hands over the money and takes possession of the gun while the dealer records the transaction with a description of the gun and the buyer’s basic information in a bound book.

        In a state like Florida which doesn’t mandate the registration of handguns the new owner is free to transfer the gun by sale, gift or loan to any other resident of that state who can legally possess a handgun. No paperwork has to be filed with the police or any other government agency for this or subsequent transfers.

        A CCW permit is only required if one carries a weapon concealed. In Florida, I believe. the permit holder can carry any handgun that he legally possesses. (In my state the permit is good only for one specific gun.) Florida doesn’t allow open carry (presumably with exceptions for hunting etc.).

      • Dave says:

        Who knows? They’re married and their guns might be considered community property. They owned two guns, the KelTec and another one (a .40 caliber I believe. I can’t remember the make.). The .40, being bigger and heavier than the compact 9mm probably stayed home most of the time.

    • towerflower says:

      1. I don’t know if ever purchased one or not the focus has been on the one used in the shooting. He is forbidden by his bond to have a gun, if I’m not mistaken.

      2. Yes, he had a legal CCW. The cops mention the CCW in their reports and a unreadable copy is in the documents. There were no disqualifiers for him obtaining one. He did not have a felony on his record and his order of protection had gone past a 3 yr waiting period.

      During the time that Osterman loaned him his gun, I don’t know if Shellie was with him or not. He might have had 2 guns, one for him and one for Shellie. He lost the one to evidence in the shooting so BFF gives him another one. Last I heard the State has that one too, although he stated in his book he is sure he’ll get it back.

      While their arrests, both of them, for felonies resulted in having their license suspended it does not prohibit them from owning one….except for the bond restriction.

      • Dave says:

        Because they are both under indictment for felonies, Federal law prohibits them from buying firearms (at least from a licensed dealer).

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Brilliant observation LLMPapa!

      • Trained Observer says:

        Also he seems pretty agile going up the stairs for someone having his had noggin’ knocked into concrete within an inch of his life.

      • Tee says:

        @ Trained Observer, not only is he agile for someone having his head slammed into the concrete, but he is also really agile or someone having suffered a back strain.

    • Mike says:

      Nice catch, what I find just as interesting is the massive gauze on the back of his head. He’s trying real hard to sell those scratches as gaping wounds.

      • towerflower says:

        The knuckle bandages increased in size over those few days, and I believe one of the cops noticed it. Amazing, 2cm and 0.5cm in length and those huge knuckle bandages……Can you say over exaggerate?

        • Yeah…..knuckle bandages on the scalp?……must not have been leakin’ that much?…..or keep entirely covered to prevent infection…

          Musta got ’em at the dollar store?

    • Trina Cosbie says:

      Awesome catch LLMPaPa!!!! I must tell u when I see your video’s, I tell my family to leave me be 5mins…..or its bread & water for dinner…lol…..seriously, I absolutely love your video’s!! Thanks for all u, Leatherman, Xena, Malisha, Dave, Trent & all Trayvon supporters do!!

    • LLMPapa

      I have seen this video many times and never saw that. Good eyes you have! 🙂

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Truthfully, I did have a broken nose once, a small closed fracture high on one side of the bridge, and was able to wear sunglasses. In fact, I wore them A LOT to hide my black eyes for the next week or so. Probably had to take ibuprofen or aspirin to ward off any discomfort.

      Ooops, Fogen didn’t have raccoon eyes, did he?

  28. Cercando Luce says:

    “What you do on your birthday, you’ll do every day of the year” (my own mother’s yearly saying)– hope it is a great day for you and yours!

  29. @ Xena….Just got back from the big city…and heard the news


  30. TommysMom says:

    Rachael thanks so much,that’s a clear case of the pot calling the kettle. MOM and company an say all manner of trash against Trayvon and as the following states no one can disagree and get published.

    Clipped from gzdefense site

    Commenting: All comments are screened and moderated before being published. Most comments will not be published; however submitting a comment is an appropriate way to communicate with the law firm as all comments will be considered. If your comment is appropriate and strengthens the message of the post above, it may be published. If you ask a question and our answer would serve to clarify the message of the post above, we may publish your comment along with our answer.

    Fair! NOT

  31. Sorry for the off-topic, but I could not help but notice the photoshopped stuff with Judge Nelson at that uh, other site, and I wonder, don’t these folks realize that that is really, really unhelpful to GZ?

    To be honest, they could save some time and effort by simply mailing a letter to Nelson:

    Dear Your Honor:

    We are a group of people with really really poor judgment so we are writing you directly to tell you that we really really hate you, but we hope that when you see this, you will do everything within your power to see to it that GZ is locked up forever.

  32. TommysMom says:

    O/T on the lighter side

    I’m this kind of woman.

    Be the kind of woman that when your feet hit the floor each morning the devil says~~
    “Oh Crap, She’s up!

  33. TommysMom says:

    I haven’t gotten through all the comments but I don’t want a plea deal either,unless it included allocution,where Z tells exactly why he did what he did. That will never happen. He most likely will go to his grave believing he did the right thing,even dragging God into it.

    Ga 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

    • Malisha says:

      The thing about allocution is that they don’t really do it. I think, however, that Judge Nelson is a “by the book” kind of judge and she may insist upon it being done right. She has the right to not accept the plea, you see.

      BTW I think Fogen getting another $18,000 will not appreciably change the case at this point; it will probably change the people who donated much more than it changes the case. They will feel even more abused and betrayed and done-to when Fogen gets sentenced.

    • Rachael says:

      Ooops, sorry – I didn’t see this was already posted.

    • Frederica must have hit a nerve.

    • towerflower says:

      I’m read it several times and I don’t see where she called him a racist. There is a big difference from being a racist and racially profiling someone.

      • Xena says:

        @towerflower I could step through that letter line by line, but rather than spend time on all of it, will address the following:

        1. There is no evidence that George Zimmerman racially profiled Trayvon Martin.

        Attorney O’Mara, who are the “assholes” that always get away? Who are the “fucking punks?” Did the defendant not refer to one person, Trayvon Martin, in the plural?

        Additionally, even if you stand on the premise that the defendant did not racially profile Trayvon, that is not what many of the defendant’s supporters believe. Maybe Congresswoman Wilson only knows the facts as she reads them, as posted by the defendant’s supporters. On blogs and in comments to news articles, they take opportunity to reference any crime committed by a Black male, even referring to them as “Obama’s sons.”

        Your client’s family sends letters to one particular blog that posts such comments as the aforementioned, thanking them for their support. That would include their support of racial profiling, would it not?

        Do you really want to talk about the defendant’s racial and cultural diversity? You know, or have reason to know, that the defendant’s brother was a guest on Randy Hahn’s radio blog, where Hahn is recorded as saying in reference to Trayvon Martin, “That little nigger deserved to be killed.” To the best of my knowledge, your client’s brother has not released any letter to the press expressing his disagreement with Hahn’s statement.

        What conclusion are people to draw when 99 percent of the defendant’s supporters that post to the internet, congratulate your client for committing a racial hate-crime?

      • Malisha says:


        Rule #1 – Don’t kill any Black people

        Rule #2 – If you DO actually kill a Black person, don’t insist you had to do it because he was a savage

        Rule #3 – If you DO actually kill a Black person and your mom calls him a savage and your father tells the world that he was a violent thug who had to be killed, tell your brother not to go all over the place calling Black people racist.

        Rule #4 – Although you may think it’s God’s plan for whites to kill Blacks and get away with it, don’t say that on National TV.

        Rule #5 – Don’t refer to Blacks as “assholes” and “punks or coons” and dont’ demand that Blacks who want you punished for killing someone apologize to you.

        You don’t need Rule #6, just study these five, you should be OK. Oops, lunch break. See you later, dumbkopf.

    • elcymoo says:

      At the bottom of the rebuke to Congresswoman Wilson posted at the gzdefensefund site, her office phone # and email contact information are provided, just in case anyone wanted to let her know how he or she feels about her comments.

      Why don’t we do that?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      And since the update above: “Since the Court denied the defense team’s MOTION TO CONTINUE, donations to the Zimmerman Legal Defense Fund Trust have been on the rise. In the last 24 hours the fund has taken in more than $11,000. That means that we’ve raised a little more than $18,000 since we relaunched the GZDefenseFund.com website last week.”

      Like I said recently, West and OM could easily have been grinning on their way out of the courtroom about the money they knew would be rolling in. It even may be the real reason they asked for a continuance in a way Judge Nelson was guaranteed to deny.

  34. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Look at gz’s explanation.

    Why do you have to go to Retreat View Circle to explain where your vehicle is on Twin Trees? He says he did not give an ADEQUATE description in relation to the CLUBHOUSE.

    Singleton: But you were gonna be back in your car from that distance in less than 15 or 20 seconds. So why would they need to call you?

    Zimmerman: I felt like I didn’t give them an adequate description of where I was from the clubhouse.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Here, with Singleton, he said nothing about where “he might be”

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      See, this is more about where he parked the vehicle in relation to the clubhouse, NOT about where Trayvon went.

      • Dan Q. Smith says:

        He says on the NEN call (and I’ve always thought it was a bit strange that dispatcher agreed to this) that the police will call him and (I took it to mean) he will tell them where he (Fogen’s person) would be at that time.

        His smoke and mirrors routine was so ridiculous because as he himself said in one of his lies (there were so many) they’d see his truck. The dispatcher would know the name of the street where the clubhouse was located.

        I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m just pondering Fogen’s kaleidoscope of lies. He contradicted himself so many times. He never once seems to have thought anything so basic as, “The NEN call is on tape.”

        He should have just yelped into a tape recorder, “I’m a liar, I’m a liar, I’m a liar.” It would have had the same effect.

    • Malisha says:

      Fogen always “explains away” his discrepancies by showing that he was trying to give more information and more help to the law enforcement folks. He needed to give them addresses; he needed to give them an “adequate description”; he needed to give them the location of “the suspect”; he needed to explain to them where “these a55holes” go to “get away”; on and on and on. See, he’s very important. Without him, the police could never do anything. Without him, the NAACP would not be able to advocate for homeless Black men who are punched; without him, poor Bpla-lack youths would not be mentored; without him, the police would not know how to come into RTL and check out a “real suspicious guy” who was “just looking about.”

      Everybody NEEDS him or nothing gets done right. Oh, and another thing: everybody NEEDS him to tell them who ELSE is not doing the right thing or who ELSE is deficient or bad. He’s a tattle-tale, a self-referential mental case, a murderer and a liar.

      (Other than that, though, a pretty righteous guy.)

  35. Rep. Frederica Wilson Introduces Resolution Honoring Trayvon Martin


    On Feb. 5, Trayvon Martin would have turned 18. Instead of being a cause for celebration, it was a harsh reminder of a tragic milestone.

    In honor of the teen who was shot to death nearly a year ago, Florida Rep. Frederica Wilson on Tuesday introduced a congressional resolution honoring him. It also calls for the repeal of Stand Your Ground laws and asks the U.S. government to address racial profiling.

    “We all know the circumstances surrounding his murder: Trayvon was racially profiled, chased, made to fight for his life and ultimately murdered. Yet we as a nation have yet to take substantive action to stop such a heartbreaking incident from happening again,” Wilson said in a statement. “Enough is enough. We as a nation have buried too many young Black boys. Let’s set Congress on course to address the underlying causes behind the crisis that Trayvon’s death symbolizes. Let’s take action to stop racial profiling and give our people a chance to succeed.”

    • Bill Taylor says:

      racial profiling is 100% wrong……stats can show why……just making up numbers but say the average male is 5ft 11 and weighs 180…….how many males out of the population are exactly those numbers? VERY FEW….you cant take the “average” and apply it to any individual in the group you will be wrong well over 90% of the time….just like skin color alone says nothing about that individuals possible criminality.

      • @Bill Taylor

        Have you ever been black before? Walked while black? Driven your car while black etc? If not? Bye!

      • fauxmccoy says:

        case in point – i’d the size of the ‘average male’ in your scenario, but i’m not male! (actually, last i checked, average height for men in this country is 5’8″, which makes me significantly taller).

      • Rachael says:

        @ Bill Taylor “just like skin color alone says nothing about that individuals possible criminality.”

        Of course it doesn’t, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. My son was frequently stopped by police for just walking down the street in the predominantly white neighborhood we lived in when he was 15-17. He is only 5’4″ but he is biracial, had a beard and dreadlocks and was a teen (though looked older). So I guess that made him a “thug.”

        Thank God he lived past that without getting shot. He is now grown up, clean-shaven, short hair, actually balding 😦 a husband, and a daddy to two beautiful little girls.

        Trayvon never had that chance.

      • groans says:

        SouthernGirl2 to Bill Taylor: “Have you ever been black before? Walked while black? Driven your car while black etc? If not? Bye!”

        @ SouthernGirl2 – I’m confused. He said racial profiling is 100% wrong. So why that response to him?

        If I’ve never been black before, does that mean there’s no place for me on the issue, either? Would that make me “unqualified” to believe in racial justice? I thought the whole point was to get everyone in agreement and “on the same page.” What am I missing? (If you feel like enlightening me, I’d appreciate it. If not, no problem. I was just so surprised reading that response from you!)

      • Bill Taylor says:

        @groans, TY for your reply, i was too stunned to respond.

      • Malisha says:

        MMPat, I’d even go a step farther. “I have to agree with Groans comment……..Bigotry, Racism, & discrimination affect many.” I believe bigotry, racism and discrimination affect EVERYBODY, and in an irremediably negative way. Even the purveyors. I think the fact that the South got itself into piss-poor condition (with, admittddly, many rich people benefitting from others’ poverty) was a direct result of slavery. There’s no getting away from that kind of “karma” — it’s not some kind of spiritual magic. It’s the result of doing things that cannot work, that never work, and that tear the fabric of our society.

        • Just look around the world at all the religions that are hating and fight & killing just because their beliefs in the same religion differ?

          Remember to old Star Trek episode where there were 2 guys…one black on the right side and white on the left…..while the other was the opposite?

          I accept people as humans no mater what race, religion or culture.

          I don’t accept a$$holes from the above list also.

          Always been mankinds way….And I don’t see it getting better….as we develop better and better weapons to kill at great distances….specifically I refer to Drone attacks….Robot warfare if you will….the result is humans still dying…

          Now excuse me as I am braiding another strap for my powder horn……Gotta be ready for the first Rendezvous 🙂

          Yeah I like my mountain here…..

  36. Dashamimi says:

    It’s more than obvious that the things are not looking good for the murderer, but does anyone know that “IF” a plea deal is made and accepted, would we be able to see all of the juicy information such as the GPS data, text messages etc. that has not already been released yet?

    • Malisha says:

      That’s just it, Dashamimi, if they enter into a plea deal all the evidence we want to see will remain hidden so we won’t know who the other criminals are. I mean, we already KNOW who they are (Smith, Wolfinger, Lee, et al.) but we won’t have the legal confirmation of everything. UNLESS the feds get serious with their civil rights violation investigation and go ahead with a 1981 case against SPD et al. I hope I hope I hope I hope.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      You mean, all that work done by public employees on the public dime REMAINS CONCEALED?

      Mr. de la Rionda, Ms. Corey, please don’t let that happen!

  37. Bill Taylor says:

    simple common sense about what was just heard = which person would be screaming out in sheer terror in those final 30 seconds? the person holding the weapon taking aim OR the person looking into the barrel knowing what was about to happen?

  38. bydesign2010 says:

    I hope that he does plead guilty soon. I think it’s important to also note that the injuries he sustained in the fight aren’t consistent with what he told police. I came across a very interesting blog of an expert fighter who reenacted the fight as GZ claims it happened. http://thefreedombulletin.com/2012/06/a-martial-artist-looks-at-the-zimmermanmartin-murder-case/

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @bydesign –

      Thank you, thank you, thank you for including this link! Note the statement, “According to Zimmerman’s brother, Martin was seated in a “high mount,” with his knees positioned over Zimmerman’s arms.”

      I have repeatedly written about Zimmerman’s knees being painfully on TRayvon’s narrow arms,and how this pinned Trayvon to the ground.

      We all know how Zimmerman lies by taking a figment of the truth and transposing it. He told his father and brother that Trayvon was on him in this position __ when the evident TRUTH is that Zimmerman HIMSELF was pinning Trayvon to the ground.

      Please review the SECOND PHOTO to see how easy it was for Zimmerman to draw his gun off his back hip, lean over, and drill Trayvon right through the heart.

      • Malisha says:

        Oh I know, O’Mara will take that $18,000 and find an expert (a clinical social worker with a degree in physiology — Maybe Doctor Laura Schlessinger!) who will come to court and testify:

        1. All the things Fogen described are physically possible;
        2. Fogen would reasonably have been in fear of great bodily harm or death from two capillary-type scrapes on his noggin and a bump on his nosey-wosey; and
        3. Thugs can beat up NW captains in ways that defy gravity, the laws of physics, and God’s plan; and, last but not least,
        4. That in her expert opinion the pictures of Fogen’s nose bleed in the squad car and the back of Fogen’s head prove self-defense.

        That expert will then finish testifying and Judge Nelson will rule that (a) Schlessinger cannot be cross-examined; and (b) the presentation was perfect; and (c) Fogen gets off on a SYG, whereupon she apologizes to Fogen on behalf of all people who believed he should be tried for a crime, and she sincerely begs him not to sue her because it would make her husband very upset.

        AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I never had such a good laugh that only cast eighteen grand!

  39. Xena says:

    @Professor. Question. Was watching the Jodi Arias trial today. She claims self-defense and this is her 3rd day of giving testimony. Each time she answered a question and began talking about what Travis (the victim) said, the prosecution objected based on hear-say. The judge sustained. Today, the defense argued exception, establishing the truth about the matter, etc. The judge told the defense to re-word the question.

    So, I was wondering what are the possibilities during GZ’s trial in the event that he testifies of what Trayvon purportedly said, and having Judge Nelson sustain objection as hearsay?

  40. Trained Observer says:

    Tuesday hearing side-note: In pushing for a continuance, MOM’s comparison whine early on about it taking three whole years for this week’s trial to begin for a teenager charged with attempted murder in a Sanford cop’s shooting was notable for two reasons.

    1) How could that have not irritated the judge, since judicial delays or courtroom ineptitude (if any) in that case are not hers? (Never mind that in that cop wounding case, it took time to track down the suspect and link him with the weapon. Although two shots missed, the cop was wounded by the third bullet. A fourth shot fired after he was down also missed. (Guess the shooter never trained with an ace like Osterman.)

    2) Could MOM have been deliberately attempting to taint the Seminole County jury pool by playing emotional racist games? The charged suspect in the cop shooting just happens to be a ba-lack teen with a rap sheet (now being tried as an adult), possibly the kind of thug Trayvon has so wrongfully been made out to be.

    • very interesting observation!!
      what a piece of shit stunt that was!! oh and i bet on number 2!
      i’m just so sick of the racist BS in this case. hope omar is permanently black balled from regular polite society after all this.

  41. Jun says:

    Apparently Omara is going for the Stand Your Ground Hearing Now in April, 2013

  42. esentrick says:


  43. LLMPapa says:

    Back to business…..

    • KA says:

      Wasn’t according to GZ, he was asking them to help him hold down a now dead teen (because GZ didn’t know he was passed)?

      • groans says:

        Thanks again LLMPapa – and with new perfect music, to boot!

        That sorry ass “help me help me” exemplar sounds like little yelps – like hiccups – or like a cartoon, or something. Now, the killer had heard the actual screams for bloody murder, yet he didn’t even TRY to sound like them. Was he clueless about the recorded 911 call at the time? Surely he must have been?

        Sickening package.

      • Malisha says:

        I think Fogen’s little poodle-bark “help me”s were made when he didn’t realize there were actual recordings of the actual events, through the 911 calls. Ooops!

    • Xena says:

      Like Singleton questioned — at what point was GZ being smothered?

      The more he lied, the deeper he dug his ditch.

    • kindheart101 says:


      Can we get a VIRTUAL Birthday Cake in here please? It’s Xena’s BIRTHDAY!

      And as your birthdays, come and go,
      your family, friends, and other know.
      They wish you well, and celebrate,
      you even have, your favorite cake.

      We also need , for you to see,
      we love you Xena, desperately.
      You are our rock, we look to you,
      For comfort, strength, and wisdom too.

      It’s on this day, you came to be,
      a member of, society.
      We wish you peace, and have to say,
      please have an, “Excellent Birthday!”

      Much Love to you Xena………..Happy Birthday!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Good one, Papa!

    • Erica says:

      I don’t get this video and the point Papa is trying to make. Witnesses said they heard help….dunno i missed the point. Somebody explain

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The video explores the difference between Trayvon’s calls for help and Fogen’s little test yelps.

    • ay2z says:

      I’ve got a question, it’s a tiny little but discrete and clear cry of anguish, same voice as the extended cries, just short– abrupt, like a shock.

      Is it important? If this cry is not the defendant, then it MUST BE TRAYVON, and if if it is TRAYVON, has The defendant just admitted to that fact?

      Reference is Witness 11 call, and the reference mark would be after Witness 11 says ‘ok’, and 0.9 seconds BEFORE the gunshot.

      • Mike says:

        That was very interesting.you can easily hear that it martins voice in marker 15.

      • FactsFirst says:

        IMHO, I believe marker 15 is Forgen faking that last scream because he knew people heard Trayvon screaming.. I believe that last scream is not Trayvon, and that voice is none other than GZ in his attempt to cover-up Trayvons screams heard by neighbors.. I believe GZ knew he would eventually have to take a lie detector test so he screamed help “one time” just before he shot Trayvon, so if he ever had to take a lie dectector test about those screams, he’d be telling the truth about screaming and pass the test.. and if I’m not mistaken, I believe BDLR mentioned two voices being heard on the NEN call in court also… Other than that, good catch on the “I was ON him, I knew I was on him”

  44. katieunc says:

    Anybody watching MOM on tru tv / in session? No wonder he won’t be ready for trial. He’s talking about how broke fogen is currently ….very interesting. Maybe. I can youtube his interview if anyone is interested in his whining.

  45. Islander says:

    I didn’t put that very well at all – duhhhh – sorry – it was the timing of the DeeDee/Trayvon conversation that was so very germane.

  46. towerflower says:

    MOM is being interviewed on InSession on True TV. They were comparing self-defense cases of Arias and Fogen. He also just hinted that Fogen will not take the stand in the immunity hearing. Saying that enough evidence exists that he doesn’t need to.

    • truthseeker66 says:

      I thought the prodded said he HAS to take stand at immunity hearing…

      • truthseeker66 says:

        Should b proff.

      • towerflower says:

        He said there were two ways to do it, via the voice of the person–testifying or thru the evidence. He said they have enough evidence with his voice, injuries, and others……to me that hinted that fogen might not take the stand and avoid a cross.

      • bydesign2010 says:

        Hilarious that he thinks the evidence on it’s face is enough to exonerate him. Nelson has been 2 for 2 in denying immunity in cases where the defendant is the aggressor. Of course he doesn’t want GZ to be eviscerated on the stand because GZ couldn’t keep his story straight if he was lead down the path. JFTM is coming!

      • Malisha says:

        If he doesn’t take the stand, he doesn’t have a witness that Trayvon attacked him OR a witness that he killed in self-defense. And if he DOES take the stand, he has a witness who says Trayvon attacked him and he killed in self-defense but that witness has zero credibility. Take your pick.

      • Jun says:

        In reality though, even witness 6’s recanted statement does not prove the victim initiated the altercation that happened, and in fact, w6 only saw maybe a small portion of it before the victim was killed in the murder. W18 saw the whole thing from the confrontation forward and she clearly points to Fogenhats as the one being the aggressor and the one who was going at the other party, ie going at the victim, Trayvon. There’s zero forensic evidence that the victim even attacked the defendant, let lone, even in self defense. I dont feel you can have a self defense claim if you attacked a victim, and then the victim was able to pin you on the ground, because the defendant remains the aggressor still and the victim has a right to self defense.

    • Jun says:

      LMAO I guess that is why he needed till November LMAO

    • Rachael says:

      If he has enough evidence, what’s with asking for a continuance?

      • Xena says:

        O’Mara’s evidence consists of 2 photos.

        I can hear BDLR now when questioning the DNA and medical experts: “Would it be possible for the victim to have grabbed the defendant’s head and hit it against concrete and not get any of the defendant’s blood or DNA underneath his fingernails?”


        “What type of blood splatter would occur if the defendant was hit in the nose and then hit in the face?” Is there evidence of such blood splatter?”


        “By examining this photo, would you say that the blood appears to run from a cut across the head? Did the defendant have a cut across his head?”

    • Jun says:

      Fogenhats from my knowledge is the only “evidence” that he did not instigate the conflict and was attacked because the witnesses and the forensic evidence do not support his story, so I do not get how he could even present the statement that it is self defense, when that is Fogenhats’ statement, so Omara cant present other people’s statements for them, especially since it does not fall under any exceptions to hearsay… so how would he present self defense theory without Fogenhats taking the stand?

    • ay2z says:

      what?? ‘enough evidence exists that he doesn’t need to take the stand in his SYG hearing?’

      Is he going to stand up and give evidence for his client, or is he saying there’s no chance they’ll succeed anyway?

      • I thought he HAD to take the stand at an SYG hearing?

      • Jun says:

        No, Omara cant submit Fogenhats’ statements for him and only Fogenhats’ statements contain any self defense claim

        He cant use w6 because he can be impeached or he may even admit that the defendant used him somehow, and besides, he only saw it close to the end, not the beginning, therefore, it is not proof Trayvon the victim instigated the confrontation, and before that is evidence that Fogenhats’ is the attacker, therefore, any action done by Trayvon would be justified, since he was correct that impending death was coming…

        However, there is no forensic evidence Trayvon even caused any attack whatsoever on Fogenhats, so….

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Jun –

          The reason there is no GZ blood/DNA on Trayvon’s hands or the cuffs of Trayvon’s sweatshirts is that Zimmerman was KNEELING ON TRAYVON’S ARMS. There are no self-defense wounds (or attack wounds) on Trayvon’s hands/fists because he could not work them free to protect himself or ward off the gun. There was over 100 lbs weight pinpointed on each of Trayvon’s arms from Zimmerman’s bulk. Trayvon screamed in both fear and agony. Zimmerman had Trayvon immobilized not just by kneeling on him, but by grasping Trayvon’s shirts.

          Then, deliberately, seething with anger because the kid would not capitulate (or admit to any crime), Zimmerman carefully placed the Kel-Tek to avoid his own grasping hand, and shot Trayvon in the heart.

          Zimmerman had complete control over Trayvon and was not in ANY danger himself. The cops were on their way. I expect he heard sirens.

          He killed Trayvon so that TYrayvon would not — COULD NOT – tell the cops that Zimmerman had pursued, assaulted and tortured him.

          I hope the evidence shows fibers from Zimmerman’s jeans ground into the sleeves of Trayvon’s hoodie. Forensics was ordered to check for blood AND FIBER. We have already seen the grass on the front tips of Zimmerman’s boots.

          Let the fiber evidence on the hoodie – the hoodie that Zimmerman used to profile Trayvon -move the Judge to sentence Zimmerman to life.

  47. Islander says:

    @Amsterdam – point taken – I hadn’t thought about all the dots that needed connecting between the recording of the calls themselves and the timing. Thank you very much.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      It was a good question, and people here should be able to give a good answer. Dee Dee was very effective to associate time with events, not by knowing the time but by associating events with call drops. The timeline we get from the phonerecords allow us to pinpoint at what time events took place. Everything Dee Dee said about when events occurred, has been corroborated with independent evidence not known to the public until long after Dee Dee made her statements.

      I think Dee Dee has been one of the most reliable witnesses so far.

    • leander22 says:

      I’ll join you on that. Very good point by Amsterdam. Obviously the call alone only tells part of the story. To invent something in hindsight you would need the call logs too. That helps a lot in facing this type of argument.

    • kimmi says:

      Hey Islander,
      Glad to see you over here too! KimmyK over there, just an fyi.
      Checking in if I get caught up here, then going to crash.
      Good to see/hear from you here!

  48. Islander says:

    Just popping in from lurkdom.

    According to Crump’s Affidavit he brought suit on March 9/12. To paraphrase Crump less than a week after the suit was brought the calls were released to the public. Crump interviewed DeeDee on March 19th.

    So DeeDee may in fact have heard the the NEN and 911 calls prior to the interview.

    • Jun says:

      The tapes were not released till the 20th or 21st

      • roderick2012 says:

        oh I know I know.

        Either Sanford city manager Norton Bonaparte, Jr or some of the ‘blahs’ in the Sanford police department smuggled a copy of George’s NEN call to Crump & Co. before it was released to the public.

        That’s gotta be the only way it happened. Yup, yup!! *sarcasm*

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I think the nen was released before that date, but the log which gave the information about the times were not released until after the DeeDee interview. Dee Dee gave information that was correct but she couldn’t have known even if she had listened to the nen call.

      • Jun says:

        The call of the NEN was not released till March 20th, 2012 or perhaps the 21st. Deedee could have only heard it through public means as Crump did not have his hands on it yet, as the suit was just brought, which does not mean it has been judged yet. Crump went over the phone records, and knew from the timeline police gave that there were matching phone calls to that date and time. I did not hear of the tape being released before then, only perhaps the suit was brought forth on March 9th

      • Malisha says:

        Even if the tape had been available, I’m taking a guess in saying DeeDee would not have listened to it and/or analyzed it or really understood the implications. It’s taken all of the analysts several months to do that.

    • Xena says:

      I don’t see what the problem is if the tape of the calls were released before attorney Crump interviewed DeeDee. Trayvon’s phone log provides for the times he received calls, and their length. He was certainly on his phone while GZ was talking to the dispatcher and also on his phone at 7:16. Trayvon’s phone log does not record seconds, but the shot was captured at 7:16:56, so it was less than a minute between Trayvon’s phone losing connection to when he was killed.

      • Jun says:


        Maybe Junior will be Fogenhats’ council LOL

        “Trayvon should have made it home that night if Fogenhats was really chasing him…”

        Junior Cross Examining W18

        “You weren’t there”

        W18 “What are you talking about? I am an on scene eyewitness”

        Junior on forensic evidence

        “After Fogenhats shot the victim, the victim got up and washed his hands, to hide the evidence he attacked Fogenhats”

        “I know more about medical evidence than an EMT. Clearly, concrete head smashes only cause really tiny superficial scratches that heal within 5 minutes, especially if the head is smashed into concrete over a dozen times…”

        • Xena says:

          LOL@Jun. Yep. Junior’s opening statement:

          “The only one there was my brother. No one else knows what happened. My family is not racist. My brother would have been dead had he not shot and killed the victim. He was savagely beaten, but let’s not draw conclusions until trial.”

      • KA says:

        Yeah, pretty improbable of a significant travel distance and an elongated “fight for his life”, eh?

        No one will believe that crap when they see the timeline alone.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Savagely beaten. Omigod – does he really think that saying this on TV makes it true?

      • kimmi says:

        Catching up…
        Happy Birthday Xena!

        I would like to see Jr’s argument (bs) for ‘gravity’ lol…

      • Dan Q. Smith says:

        And I’ve read 40-something seconds of that minute are Trayvon yelling for help on that infamous 911 recording. God, how sad. 😦

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          What is being forgotten in this idea that the NeN tapes could have helped DD fashion a better story is: Look at how long it took us to discover what was going on in the NeN tapes? And, add to that, that much of what GZ was relating to in his narrative while on the NeN call was false as well. DD could not have possibly figure that out, even if she had the tapes in hand before Crump deposed her.

          If anyone simply listened to the NeN call and tried to use it to fashion a story, they’d have gotten it wrong because they’d have been using false material to work with. DD’s story is independent from the NeN call and therefore reveals lies GZ is telling the NeN operator. But, you couldn’t learn that in even a few weeks with the NeN calls to work with.

          Just another example of how, testimony that cannot be falsely crafted, cannot be impeached by character traits and/or other external material.

  49. ay2z says:

    (anyone think he might have made a tinsy, teeny-tiny confession during the ‘truth test’? I have to wonder if the overly confident ‘cool and calm’ talkin’, neighborhood stompin’, gun-totin’, bubble-head, thought his ability to control the questions, or deflect those he didn’t want to answer, would succeed as he once again told his story, HIS way– again. Irwin had a clue which question Serino wanted an answer to, you know, the part just before the phone rang and just after 7:03:00 pm maybe?)

    Been wondering about that, and if the ‘truth test’ was smoke and mirrors as much as voice stress. This guy not only talks with his voice, he ‘tells’ with his hands.

    • fauxmccoy says:

      without doubt, the ‘voice stress test’ was a deliberate ploy to get fogen talking and keep him talking for as long as humanly possible. his eagerness to ‘help’ himself and the police, combined with ignorance and arrogance are his own worst enemies here. serino knew darn well that the results would be inadmissible, yet anything stated by fogen could be used in court. nothing but smoke and mirrors, as you stated. fogen fell for it but thinks he ‘proved’ something because he ‘passed’ a bogus test (about the only test he has come to ‘passing’ in his pathetic life.)

      • Malisha says:

        Fogen requested the voice-stress test, at the advice of Osterman. The first words Erwin said were, “I hear you have requested a voice stress test?” Fogen says yes, and Erwin says, “I’m here to grant your wish.”

        In my experience (quite a bit of it), the voice stress test is the guilty man’s way out of charges if the police are WITH HIM in not wanting to draw any charges. Think: What stresses Fogen? NOT lying, that doesn’t stress him at ALL. What stresses Fogen is being CHALLENGED when he lies. So if he answers questions and Erwin doesn’t challenge his answers at all, his voice is not going to have the slightest stress in it. It did NOT stress him to kill Trayvon Martin. It would not stress him to lie about it and blame his victim. ONLY if HE is put on the spot and made to feel disbelieved or uncomfortable will you hear any stress.

        In fact, Fogen LIKES to lie. That’s the way he has made himself so self-important all his life. His co-worker Omar said this about him; he lied so well that his bullying victim at work actually found himself almost believing him about what had happened! It would never stress Fogen to lie; it would stress him all to hell to tell the TRUTH!

        • fauxmccoy says:

          i agree with you that fogen’s natural state is to be lying and doing so causes no stress, as murder did not either.

          now that you mention it, i do remember the ‘here to grant your wish’ part. i have to believe serino used the opportunity to keep him talking too though, knowing that ‘results’ of said test are meaningless.

      • ay2z says:

        Anything stated can be used in court? I’ve been wondering if that’s the way it works.


    • KA says:

      Sociopaths can easily pass a voice stress test and many times, a lie detector test.

      GZ might be one, not sure. I am very sure, however, he has a very strong pattern for a life long personality disorder. I also, honestly believe, that he does not believe he is lying, he sees no illegal behavior in what he did/does, and really believes he is being treated unfairly. Emotionally, he is an 8 year old.

      • Malisha says:

        KA, I think you overestimated his mental age by a couple of years, but still, not yet into the “age of reason.” Still in the “age of giving an excuse instead of a reason.”

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Ay2 –

      Yes, The Butcher talks with his hands. The high angle shot down on Zimmerman in the “voice test room” caught Butch Zimm re-creating the shot for the operator — and you can see Butch with his left (dominant) hand in a CLUTCHING POSITION close in to Butch’s chest – where he unconsciopusly re-creates grasping & tugging on Trayvon’s sweatshirts – just before the Butcher of Sanford pulled the trigger.

  50. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    Ooh, I don’t know if this has already been posted and talked about, but it was good. Jr on Piers Morgan and Morgan wasn’t nice. Lol Jr was getting alittle upset. 😀

    • ay2z says:

      I’d like to see a face-off between Junior and Charles Blow, but suppose they won’t go into MSNBC studios anytime soon.

    • Jun says:

      Junior is clearly in denial of the truth and his points and arguments are all nonsense

      He could not even accept that Trayvon Martin would be alive if Fogenhats did not have a gun, which, is pretty much a scientific fact

      Okay, now I know it was Junior who was attempting to argue with me over the internet now that I have seen him on TV, because I have had numerous Zidiots come at me with that nonsense of I was not there yet he was not there either but he knows better

      All I can conclude, is Junior is not always all there

      Jeez he could not even accept that his brother pursued and stalked Trayvon Martin the victim and he clearly did not even look at the evidence

    • jm says:

      Junior is a double-talking enabler. I don’t know what his deal is but he makes me want GZ imprisoned even more. Can’t figure out which brother is the most obnoxious but Junior’s voice alone grates on my nerves like nails on a chalkboard. What a bunch of whackos the Zimmermans are.

      • Jun says:

        He says banning guns wont help because criminals will get guns anyways yet John Holmes legally obtained his weapons, and so did the Sandy Hook guy

        He then says to ban the avoidance of watching mental health

        The guy just contradicts himself so much and is a hypocrite and a liar

        He could not even admit that if not for Fogenhats and the gun, Trayvon would be alive today, which, even a baby would realize

    • truthseeker66 says:

      He changed his tone. He does not want anyone disparaging TM, his family will not stand for it, really? He acknowledge TM b-day.

      • kindheart101 says:


        That made me gag.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Too late. He should have done that from the beginning.

      • Dan Q. Smith says:

        Oh my. That’s disgusting. Thank you for posting though because I can’t make myself watch Jr anymore. I really do want to know what the Fogen PR machine is doing and this about sums it up on the Jr front. His family won’t stand for it. Wow, like they could “stand” for anything.

    • Mike says:

      Lol, you mad Jr?

      “I know George better than you do, so its the truth” wah

      • truthseeker66 says:

        At first I only watch until the 1st break. Honestly, he is a prickly!! Has the nerves to call piers irresponsible. Jrzidiot. REALLY….

    • Xena says:

      Here’s Junior: “The Earth is flat.”

      Here’s Piers: It has been proven …

      Junior: “You weren’t there when the Earth was created.”

      Piers: “You weren’t either.”

      Junior: “So I guess we’ll just have to wait until the truth comes out.”

      Uh, Junior — the truth is already known. Your brother independently decided to get out of his truck, and deliberately followed Trayvon. He said so. Don’t you believe him?

    • KA says:

      I question his little crusade. They were talking about gun control and he was invited to speak about it? I would think the last qualified person to do that (okay, maybe GZ himself is less qualified). Outside of Fox News, he is facing criticism and tough interviews. He was estranged from his brother until this. GZ was not a great guy before this and did things to hurt the family (like turning off the electricity on his mom). I can’t really figure out his motive. Maybe he is doing favors for his brother. I suspect the defense is not asking him to as he keeps muddling stories up.

      BTW…Does HE have security?

      Being the face of his brother on the media channels would make me ask whether he constantly feels his life in in danger. He is obviously accessible to many outlets.

    • Malisha says:

      Who died and left Junior an expert on ANYTHING except, perhaps, why he and his bro were estranged before the death of Trayvon Martin?

  51. ay2z says:

    May I suggest to the defendant, should he decide to confess with a statement, full and complete, sans word games and time shifts (0.912 second time shifts most critically), that he sign his statement with:

    “I feel was all God’s plan”.

  52. kindheart101 says:

    For me, the best part of yesterdays hearing, (other than Judge Nelson beating West over the head with her gavel, and denying the Defense request to delay the trial) was when it was over.

    I “Roared” when O’Mara and West turned, and walked out of the courtroom, just leaving Fogen sitting there, all alone, waiting for the dog catcher to come pick him up. It is quite obvious that O’Mara and West have their own agenda’s, of which they are keeping their client clueless of……….LOL.

    At best, they talked about wardrobe. Fogen rolled in, clad in his way too tight suit, belly hanging over his belt, purple shirt, with a tie that looked like it was tied by a preschooler. O’Mara walked beside him with a perfectly matched, purple tie, and having the appearance he was walking into a lions den.

    And……..why was Fogen carrying a briefcase? LMAO! Isn’t that O’Mara’s job? (Yet he had nothing) Was Fogen sneaking a snack into the court? Jelly Bellies, Pop tarts, Ding Dongs…….etc. One thing Fogen was without, was that smirk, and look at me attitude. I think JR., subliminally sucked that from Fogen, and is using it on twitter, the news, and during interviews. Fogen has been openly rebuffed by his counsel, and his brother is putting the last nail in his coffin.

    This is JUSTICE!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      You use your eyes and ears very well, kindheart. 🙂

      • kindheart101 says:

        Thank you YAHTC.

        It is a learned art. Having been Blessed to have been a Hospice Care Giver, one learns to watch body movements, listen carefully, and watch for any personality changes.

        It’s good to see you. 🙂

        • fauxmccoy says:

          not only a kindheart, but a sweet heart and a bless your heart. i lost my dearly beloved father 18 months ago to liver cancer, he went quickly, thank god, five weeks from diagnosis to the end, but i was always absolutely touched by the unbelievable kindness and gentleness with which some of his care givers attended to him. i was relentless in dismissing those who did not. bless you, yet again, for all that you do.

          • kindheart101 says:


            I am so sorry to hear about your Father my dear friend. My wish is that he was kept comfortable, and you had many wonderful moments with him.

            I am going to be gone for a few days, to the mountains, close to Asheville. I can’t wait. I don’t get out much, so this is a double treat for me! A good friend of mine has been begging me to come visit for years, but I can’t make the drive. So, one of my local friends is going to drive me up there, and we are going to enjoy life without computers, not watch TV, or answer our phones. (Just pure nature)

            I will remember your Father as I sit out back and look at the mountains, and nature at it’s best. You will know I am thinking of you when you see a random butterfly, or feel a warm breeze as you sit, waiting for the sun to rise. My parents have passed, but I was taught to love, and respect nature……….so I am sure I will feel all of them around me.

            I will send you an email before I go. 🙂

          • fauxmccoy says:

            have a very lovely trip, i know how important things like that are, especially when driving yourself is not always an option.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Good to see you too, dear kindheart.

  53. ay2z says:

    Excellent read, thank you.

    If the defendant pleads guilty for whatever reason, will this only help those who have climbed into the tree this ‘innocent’, be able to turn that into ‘yes, he’s innocent more than ever– they forced him out of his defense team by the denial of continuance?

    BTW– John Guy, BDLR, seemed to be arranging with the D Team, abut a meeting room and may have been headed for a confab post-hearing. What might they have discussed, they did have some unexpected time on their hands for the rest of the day?

  54. leander22 says:

    thanks a lot for the info, Frederick, if I may. If the call was not released publicly at that time it that changes everything, and you must be right considering it always takes time. That is exactly the reason they try to target BC/TM/SF. No matter how deep they would dig, it would never distract suspicion.

    I absolutely agree Trayvon’s phone records would not have been first priority for FDLE at the time. Neither would it have been for Crump or Martin. It would have changed the scenario completely had Martin the info at the time of his encounters with Serino.

    Someone in the last comment section forced me to reread the articles concerning indigence. I admittedly did not pay too close attention on it, otherwise the combination of the latest fundraising efforts with the motion to continue would have been much more stood out for me. While reflecting that I suddenly understood BDLR a lot better.

    I have the same impression as you have of him. He is really consequent, he cannot on one hand criticize the media campaign by defense and than use the same tricks. He is very careful with what he says. You have to be really up to date with what you called games, I think, to completely understand.

    When I saw O’Mara waving around the small piece of paper deliberately to convey the impression of: look at this mess, he made me sick. What’s the relevance of that? Someone of his six interns has to use a bit of glue and stick it on a larger sheet before filing it? I thought they do not cost him any money anyway. Or is that a significant delay too? 😉

    There is a strange difference between these two men. O’Mara sports a “polite” surface and really uses dirty tricks, while BDLR is more the rumbling guy on the surface but really may have much more ethics than O’Mara ever had. I arrived at the same conclusion as you on a slightly different route.

    • leander22 says:

      I am called to supper:

      the combination of the latest fundraising efforts with the motion to continue would have stood out much more for me.

      As always, on the rest I trust your eyes to discern what is too much and so on. 😉

    • fauxmccoy says:

      look at it this way – yesterday’s hearing was naught but more ‘court theater’ under expert direction by judge nelson yelling ‘cut, cut, cut’ at every possible junction presented by the defense. it was clear by their own admissions that they have nothing – no money, no expert witnesses, and no time.

      • SearchingMind says:

        “… no money, no expert witnesses, and no time”

        That will send any lawyer into panic. And when a lawyer, panics you have a train wreck. And if the lawyer in question is not nin panic and remains indifferent to that state of affairs, ha has no business taking on the case in the first place.

      • pat deadder says:

        Saying they have no money for expert witnesses bla bla bla was just an underhanded and conniving way of soliciting money in my opinion,

    • SearchingMind says:

      “ There is a strange difference between these two men. O’Mara sports a “polite” surface and really uses dirty tricks, while BDLR is more the rumbling guy on the surface but really may have much more ethics than O’Mara ever had. I arrived at the same conclusion as you on a slightly different route”

      ITA.I couldn’t say it better. BDLR comes across as a pit-bull (and he really is a pit-bull when he is cross-examining a defendant, something Fogen already tested just a little bit), but from the ethical point of view, is as innocent as the dove. He says and does what needs to be said/done. Nothing more. Nothing less. He is a paradigm of a true servant of the law.

      • absolutely agree that BDLR is a straight shooter, an honorable man. i respect him tremendously and believe him and Corey are truly working towards justice FOR Trayvon! Just like she said in the presser when gz was finally arrested.

  55. fauxmccoy says:

    great article, prof. donation made, again. it is humble, but as an SSDI recipient wit two teens, my means are modest. please accept as a token of my appreciation for your work.

    i do have a question about this gps data. while glancing at the huffpost yesterday, i saw many of the zim apologists attempting to spin this hearing into a fogen victory (insane, i know). one of the points they kept making was that the state must turn over gps data to the defense. this seems to differ from what you post above. if i read between the lines, that can only be interpreted to be information that is far from exculpatory.

  56. colin black says:

    Cheers blushed will puruse later.

    My J A Trials starting.

  57. colin black says:

    Jun foggens had a Blackberry an they will have his gps data if it possable.
    Blackberry phones sre compatable with gps an have that capability.
    Not sure if you have to ddownload the app though

    I have a blackberry an cant even conect to the internet with it
    Because Im tech chalenged.

    But Im pretty sure they will have grabbed both the decedent an the offenders gps data if its available
    An it sounds like they both were
    If Im reading correctly.
    Most of thease big IT companys take youe gps acctivity wether you want them to or not.

    Its usefull to town planners
    Builders of Malls ect an they can sell that info on at a profit an do.

    If I were involved in crime today Id wouldnt have own or let a mobile phone within fifty feet of my person.

  58. colin black says:

    Can someone direct me to some where I may veiw yesterdays hearing
    Due to the Arias trial an Jod haveing the cahoonies to get up on the stand an give evidence.
    I wasnt missing that an it continues today.
    Cant wait untill the cross exam begins.
    Ive already caught a few wuthering looks from the prosecuter.
    I expect he will start out gently an eventually tear her a new one
    Although from some of the evidence presented dureing her trial I suspect she has already experienced that sensation.

    • blushedbrown says:


      Trent has the hearing broke up into five parts. He also has the Piers Morgan interview with JR.


      • Two sides to a story says:

        Thanks for posting the PM link. I missed it last night.

        Jr. should have been cautioning Fogen’s followers to not sully Trayvon and his family all along. Too little, too late.

      • Looolooo says:

        Yeah, yet another interview with Jr. inwhch he does NOT ask him the tough questions or throw the evidence, and racist statements in his lying “sciopathic” face. NO ONE who has interviewed RZJ has laid into him as they should. I wish he’d agree to an interview with Lawrence O’Donnell. He’d grill him for sure.

      • Looolooo says:

        True that. 🙂

    • Xena says:

      O’Mara is on In Session now. They are comparing the two self-defense cases.

      • Xena says:

        “Self-defense best comes out at the defendant’s own voice.” Mark O’Mara

        Even with some money coming in, O’Mara says the fund is not sufficient to hire expert witnesses and reveal them by the March date. He is more concerned with having living expenses available for George and ShelLIE.

    • @ colin. after the cross she’ll be a 4 hole wonder!!!LOLO

      • Xena says:


        after the cross she’ll be a 4 hole wonder!!!LOLO

        I think the defense is making a big mistake. As I listened to Jodi testifying today, I was thinking “So your claim of self-defense is because he didn’t turn you from a whore to a housewife?”

        • LMAO omg! you got it! too true! i hope that crosses those jurors’ mind!
          but i have to tell you this is the most pornography i’ve ever really heard- they don’t even talk like this in porno movies!!LOL i think it’s crazy she would get up there and actually admit all these things and think it makes her look victim-ish!
          to be blunt i’m older than her and have had longer relationships and never ever did half the shit she did with my TRUE loves, much less some dude i just met! now my very best friend of 19 years before she died, was a super freak! and i say that with all the love in my heart!! but that’s just how some chicks are. i say good for them, what ever floats you’re boat. but it sure aint abuse and SURE aint anywhere near a defense for what she did to the guy!!!

          • Xena says:


            LMAO omg! you got it! too true! i hope that crosses those jurors’ mind!
            but i have to tell you this is the most pornography i’ve ever really heard- they don’t even talk like this in porno movies!!LOL i think it’s crazy she would get up there and actually admit all these things and think it makes her look victim-ish!

            Jodi had a hard time explaining why the elders and missionaries did not want to baptize her and she then asked Travis. Well — DUH!!! Maybe they suspected she was only joining the Mormon church to be with Travis. For a grown woman not to know what “chastity” means, in or out of church, is pretty sad.

        • jm says:

          Watching Jodi Arias testimony and listening to commentators who are outraged because of her story of what Travis allegedly did to her and the disrespect he had for her and his church.

          How is it they believe her story now after her denial of being anywhere near Travis and then the Ninja story where she was there but somebody else did it while she was there? I don’t believe a word she says. Why in the world would you arm yourself with a gun and a knife to visit a guy who “disrespects” you.

          If she gets off based on this latest story, I have lost faith in the overall intelligence of jury members.

          • Xena says:

            @jm. Re: Jodi Arias. The woman is a liar. All the things she has testified about thus far, were consensual. You can also tell that she embellished. Prosecutors are doing a good job with objections each time she goes beyond the scope of answering a question. I anxiously await cross-examination. Jodi killed Travis 3 times over. She was killed in a fit of jealous rage, not a fit of fear.

          • jm says:

            Xena: “I anxiously await cross-examination.”

            I do too. The prosecutor has been a pit bull so far and she is just rattling his cage. Honestly she is one of the most repulsive people I have ever observed not just for her brazen lies but the ugliness of the crime she committed. The more she talks the more I despise her.

            I don’t believe in capital punishment but I pray she is sent to prison for a lifetime of hopelessness.

          • Xena says:

            @jm. How does a person cry without tears, but their nose runs? Does Jodi not think that the jury sees that?

            Like you, I do not believe in the death penalty, but yes, Jodi belongs behind bars for the rest of her life.

  59. colin black says:


  60. Jun says:

    Considering massive amount of lies and contradictions and inconsistencies with on scene witness statements and forensic evidence, even before the hearing, I had a feeling it would not serve Fogenhats well, because based on what we know already, we know he’s a bloodclot liar and a killer, so it is what they call a good gamble, and we already know it never happened the way the stalker child killer claims it happened

    Based on w18, w1, w2, Mary Cutcher and Roommate, the 911 scream tape, the NEN tape, forensic evidence… Fogenhats clearly pursued and aggravated stalked this kid, otherwise he would not have ended up where he was, doing what he was doing on top of contradicting fact coming from scientific analysis

    We’ll hear more from Junior and Taffe and Omara and that will be the end of that roller coaster

    They should grab the GPS data from Fogenhats’ phone too… I am curious as to the direction he took because he did force Trayvon to try to get away from him by heading north toward the T, but not all the way there to try and pass off his SYG story that he staged or attempted to stage

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I’m guessing that Fogen’s data has been analyzed and probably that’s part of what the prosecution will use against him.

  61. SearchingMind says:

    Oh West!

    I kind of found it comical that Donald West found it necessary to read out a statute to the Judge Nelson and in effect teach her the law.

    When West argued that the defense according to the letter of the statute he cited does not require the leave of the Court to depose Crump I though this guy is willfully being idiotic as I asked myself:

    Ok Mr. West, Mr. Crump is not listed as a witness and there is NO law obligating him to appear for deposition. if you don’t need Court’s leave to depose Mr. Crump, what exactly are you going to do if Mr. Crump refuses to appear for your deposition? Are you then going to motion the Court to compel Mr. Crum to submit to deposition? If not, what other remedies do you have? If yes, aren’t you effectively asking the Court for leave in order to depose Mr. Crump? Wouldn’t the Court be right in ruling as follows: “Mr. West, you do not need the Court’s leave to depose Mr. Crump. Your motion to compel is denied”? And what if the Court rules as follows: “Mr. West, the Court has considered your motion and finds that deposition of Mr. Crum is unnecessary. The motion is therefore denied”? Are you not back to where you started.

    Mr. West, grammatical interpretation of the law is NOT (always) the best interpretation of the law. I guess in Law School, you were thought different methods of interpretation among with the teleological plays a dominant role. I guess also that you must have learn in Law School that you NEVER teach the Judge the law, no? Dumb, dumb West.

    • Tzar says:

      great freakin’ post

    • Malisha says:

      HAHA, I remember a hearing where my ex-husband took my lawyer (my expensive lawyer) into court to compel production of documents. My lawyer told the judge that we were never ASKED for those documents. The judge asked my ex, “Did you ever ask for those documents?” The ex said, “she knows I have to see them!” The judge asked my lawyer, “Is your ONLY objection to the motion to compel the fact that he never asked for them?” My lawyer said, “that plus the fact that they do not exist outside the respondent’s imagination, Your Honor.”

      This kind of reminded me of the hearing yesterday.

  62. Hey kids! : ) Looky here!

    Trayvon Martin vigil canceled over safety concerns


    MELBOURNE, Fla. — A vigil in Palm Bay to mark the life of Trayvon Martin was canceled Tuesday because of safety concerns just hours before it was scheduled to start.

    According to a statement from event sponsor Fathers Stand Up, concerns that the event might have been taken out of context by the community were part of the reason for canceling the vigil.

    Event organizer John P. Francois, founder of Fathers Stand Up, said there was “a lot of stuff that I heard that might occur” during the vigil, which was set for 6:15 p.m. Tuesday at Palm Bay City Hall. He said he canceled because, “I don’t want to see anybody get hurt on my watch.”

    Martin, 17, was shot and killed by George Zimmerman in a Sanford, Fla., neighborhood on Feb. 26, 2012. Zimmerman was not immediately charged, but later was accused of second-degree murder in a case that has received intense media coverage and public interest.

    Martin would have turned 18 on Tuesday.

    Francois declined to give more details of the alleged statements that led him to stop the event, but he said they came from three different sources. He said he did not consider them threats and did not plan to get police involved, but he went ahead and canceled anyway.

  63. blushedbrown says:

    following new thread…

  64. The defense team is up the proverbial creek without a paddle, unless the skies suddenly open releasing a downpour of dollars into the defense coffers.
    So if they get enough $$$ they can buy the defendants freedom ? If the prosecution has the good on him, how can any amount of money help him ?

  65. jm says:

    Is there anything different in the behavior of West and MOM at the end of this 02/05 hearing? It seems the last few hearings (since GZ’s weight gain) they always left GZ behind at the table waiting for an escort.

    I also wondered if MOM and West had a meeting with BDLR and his associate who were talking to defense team just prior to leaving the courtroom.

    As far as being indigent, does this mean GZ’s autographed thank you notes aren’t selling and he is no longer receiving donations? And if he is declared indigent, will MOM and West stay on as his defense team at a lower rate of pay or are they even being paid at this point. Does GZ have to prove he is indigent or will they take his and his family’s word for it?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The defense and prosecution were likely coordinating arrangements for the Witness 8 deposition discussed during the hearing.

    • Xena says:

      @Jm. At the hearing back in October, I noticed that O’Mara turned and walked away afterwards without a word nor glance to GZ.

  66. Fight Fan says:

    has GPS gotten better? I’ve seen it used in cases to triangulate a general area, like acres or blocks but not a pinpoint.

    • Jun says:

      I would say it is about 10 – 30 feet off, based on Iphone Google Mapping

    • Eric says:

      The BCM4752 chip for smart phones can pinpoint your location within inches.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Let’s hope Trayvon had a smart phone that was super smart. Fogen, given his chronic financial straits, may have had a cheapie, but am hoping he had a smart phone, too… one that will illustrate his lies.

        • Xena says:

          GZ’s phone was a Blackberry.

          Remember GZ’s words to dispatch — “He coming to check me out.” “He’s got his hand in his waistband.” “He’s got something in his hand.”

          Trayvon was using a headset and would go into his pocket to get his phone out. GZ could easily see the 7-Eleven bag that Trayvon was carrying, so the “He’s got something in his hand” could have been Trayvon using his phone to take a photo or video record the creepy guy following him.

          GZ’s phone records would provide who he communicated with before calling NEN, and thereafter until he was handcuffed by Smith. Thereafter, discovery document provide that GZ had a pre-paid phone. The feds obtained those records also.

    • PYorck says:

      This is an example that shows what is possible with a normal smart phone.

      I have made tracks like that myself, but unfortunately they all show my home address a bit too clearly for comfort. Btw. my phone is very close to Trayvon’s in age and capabilities.

      However the phone in the link was set to record the track in advance. Because of that it checked the position more frequently than it would have during normal operation.

      The open question is really the number of measurements and not so much the accuracy of each one.

  67. bettykath says:

    The defendant’s initial problem was cooperating with the police instead of hiring a lawyer. Since he was arrested, his problem has been either bad advice that he took, or ignoring any good advice. I suspect that both options are valid.

    I appreciate the judge’s decisions but I really don’t feel the joy, nor can I join in the laughter at the happenings at the hearing. I have some disbelief in the defense’s “arguments” and agree with the outcome, but it’s really sad. It’s sad that such arguments were made and this case has been drawn out in the way it has. It’s a learning experience, but it isn’t entertainment for me.

    • Eric says:

      GZ’s initial problem is that he’s angry at the world because he’s a loser. He compounded that problem by stalking, chasing, cornering, and then murdering an innocent person who nothing to do with his pathetic life.

      Fogen thought that his crime would be swept under the rug. That is obvious by the way he was sashsaying around the police dept. the night he committed his murder. I believe the police and Gz’s contacts told him don’t sweat it. If what I suspect is true, then they were almost right. He, nor his custodians/protectors anticipated the outrage.

      • jm says:

        IMO GZ’s initial problem is he has no self-control, makes bad decisions, feels entitled and thinks he is smarter than he is because he surrounded himself with stupid people who enabled him.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        And, he is a liar.

        Liar nobody believes you
        Liar they *[BDLR will]* bring you down before you begin

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      • Tzar says:

        Thank you
        His problem is not that he wasn’t smart enough to get away with it
        his problem is that he could not stop himself from committing a crime

      • bettykath says:

        We’re well past the stage of analyzing his motives and what happened. We’re in the discovery stages of the pending trial. I was addressing his actions after he did the deed and what his defense team has to deal with now. He admitted that he killed Trayvon but then he didn’t shut up. He left little to nothing for his lawyers to work with.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Bettykath, agree with all your points. And, yes, Eric, that body language at the cop shop that night and hours later going upstairs for Serino interview just reeked of “here I am, finally a hotshot, a big cheese, a player, a big gun (if you’ll pardon the pun, even though he used a cheesy little K-Tel).

        When his contacts (as you say, failing to sense impending outrage) told him not to sweat it, he began to run his mouth. That contrasting with GPS evidence will be his doom

      • Dan Q. Smith says:

        @ Eric

        Wasn’t he though?! If you watch the video of his arrival at the police station, he gets out of the car, leans with his back to the wall, and places one foot against the wall with his leg bent!

        Tell me he was worried. Oh, no. Quite the opposite.

    • roderick2012 says:

      bettykath says:The defendant’s initial problem was cooperating with the police instead of hiring a lawyer. Since he was arrested, his problem has been either bad advice that he took, or ignoring any good advice. I suspect that both options are valid.

      But, but Papa Zim’s BFF Norm Wolfinger had taken care of all of that the night of the shooting by driving to the Sanford police station to personally spike the investigation and prevent any charges being filed against George so to George everything ‘had blown over’.

      George truly believed that he was the POLICE the night that he shot and killed Trayvon. Someone on here mentioned that his NEN call sounded very similar to when a police officer wants to kill someone and they use 911 or whatever to establish those grounds.

      Someone at Talkleft noted that George sounded more authoritative on the NEN call the night of 2/26/2012 when compared to all of the others and that authoritativeness spilled over to the re-enactment the next day.

      In George’s warped mind he had made it. All of those failed cop exams were behind him because he was finally riding in a car with real live police detectives and he was going to show them where he took down that dastardly ‘suspect’ walking home with Skittles and a can of Arizona Watermelon drink.

      Then he got to sit with real live detectives at their real live desks so he could tell them all about how he had eliminated the Skittles and Arizona Watermelon drink threat from Twin Lakes.

      Until he realized that they weren’t buying his story and like all liars he began embellishing, parsing and dissembling.

      • Tzar says:

        George is not a very smart man

      • Jun says:

        I personally believe Fogenhats has mental and psychological problems

        He needs to see a shrink to be perfectly honest

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Do you think gz would ADMIT any of his problems to a shrink?

      • roderick2012 says:

        @ Jun, I have stated that multiple times but that entire family is loco especially Jr.

        Everytime I see him I want to hurl!!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I think this song fits gz.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        He is an unfeeling rock that throws rocks at anyone who bothers him.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Nah, that song doesn’t fit him.

        He is just a sociopath.

        • jm says:

          I agree. GZ is a severely mentally ill sociopath who needed help years ago, yet his family continues to ignore this by publically defending him, saying GZ is a “victim” of the kid he murdered even though evidence shows GZ is lying.

          The whole Zimmerman family sickens me.

      • Jun says:

        I have a hard time believing there were that many idiots to believe him at all, if at all

        We have a 17 year old who went to 7-11 to buy Skittles and walk home talking to his girlfriend on the phone, and then, the victim got targeted and stalked by a mentally unbalanced individual who thinks he is Captain Callahan or something, who disparaged the kid beforehand…

        then the kid ends up dead, and people are supposed to believe Captain Fogenhats had no ill intention at all and he did not instigate it when he clearly admitted to instigating issues on a phone call to the point a kid got scared and began trying to avoid the defendant?

        I can understand from a legal court standpoint they need to build a strong case because of this crazy law, but you’d have to be beyond stupid to just buy the defendant’s story when the defendant himself presented evidence of motive and intention to do harm to the victim

        Aye Dios Mios

      • MelRoy says:

        I get why Norm Wolfinger may have “erred on the side of caution” in this case. For one, he is a self-proclaimed “very conservative” Republican, who was considering running for re-election and the SYG law was very popular among Florida Republicans. Wolfinger had boasted about his NRA rating and other “conservative credentials”. But in 2010 his reputation took a hit when he resisted DNA testing for prisoners because he’d put some of them away, and some of them were exonerated. If memory serves me correctly, some of the prisoners exonerated with DNA evidence in Florida had already spent 10 or 20 years in prison.

        Obviously his job as a prosecutor was to represent victims, but it was his very public and vehement opposition to the DNA testing which damaged him.

        But going back to the SYG law – I believe there was and still is a lot of pressure from majority Republican legislators in Florida to let anybody who invokes it to walk. If there was even the slightest possibility of self-defense, police and prosecutors were coached to just let it go.

        Although I don’t think George Zimmerman has a legitimate self-defense claim (he wasn’t hurt badly, and pursued Trayvon even though he thought he was “acting strange” and “up to no good”, he seems to have suffered some mild injuries in the course of the encounter. When it comes to SYG cases in Florida, I have seen the most bizarre cases, and the killer almost always gets off.

        • blushedbrown says:


          >>>>Obviously his job as a prosecutor was to represent victims, but it was his very public and vehement opposition to the DNA testing which damaged him.

          Respectfully disagree that DNA testing was the only thing that did him in. His track record speaks for itself. Him and his office prosecuted and sentenced to death more blacks then whites.


          http ://www.insightoutnews.org/insights/trayvon-martin-case-original-state-attorney-wolfinger-has-troubled-history/

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i should search my files to bring up the article, but the other thing i remember about wolfinger was he screwed up a previous SYG case bad enough that he was always reluctant to take on another one.

          • blushedbrown says:


            If you get a hot minute please post, so I can have for my files. Thanks. 🙂

      • roderick2012 says:

        @ MelRoy @ February 6, 2013 at 4:06 pm

        Not to be rude but you’re misinformed. Wolfinger is the childhood friend of George’s father. They also served in Vietnam together.

        Also Wolfinger didn’t have the decency to at least wait for the autopsy results, ballistics results or the forensics results before giving George his get-out-of-jail free card!!

        Unfortunately Wolfinger’s deputy was elected in November to replace him.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          roderick – i have seen allegations of zim sr/wolfinger relations posted repeatedly over the last year, but have never been able to find a confirmation that is not the ‘word’ of a poster somewhere. do you have any primary sources to back that up? i have searched pretty seriously, because that would indeed be damning.

          • blushedbrown says:


            >>>>>i have searched pretty seriously, because that would indeed be damning.

            So have I.

          • I’ve read that Papa Z is wolfingers son Robert’s godfather…..Odd also is that wolf named his son after Z Sr.?

          • fauxmccoy says:

            i have seen that too – but only from posters, no verifiable source has ever been posted of which i am aware. i am not inclined to believe such claims until i see a real source

      • Dan Q. Smith says:

        @ roderick2012

        Excellent point!

        I never really connected these dots before and I think you’re right. It makes sense. He used the word “suspect” in his written statement. He really must have thought he was the police and he had “arrived.”

        How very bizarre but very true.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Now he can sit at a real live desk in a courtroom with a real live judge not likely to be a member of the Sanford good ol’ boys network … and while he sits amid a swirl of real live motions and legal gobbledegook, he can watch his own miserable life prospects circle the drain.

    • It certainly ceases to be entertainment when you are in the trenches fighting to save a client’s life.

      It’s damned difficult to face an angry and hostile jury that has convicted your client of a capital murder, despite your best effort, and plead for your client’s life.

      Emotions overwhelm

      your throat tightens

      Tears stain

      cannot be contained

      you will never recall what you said.

      I’ve heard jurors say afterward

      I would have sentenced him to death

      but I couldn’t do that to you.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Moving. I’ve always held anti-capital punishment views since I was assigned to debate against it in a junior high school class nearly 50 years ago.

      • SearchingMind says:

        “It certainly ceases to be entertainment when you are in the trenches fighting to save a client’s life…”

        HA, Professor, that’s a very good one. Most people here won’t understand. Even the client does not understand what an attorney goes through emotionally trying to save him. lately, I succeed in getting an order forbidding the deportation of a man back to Africa (The Sudan). The guy involved is now all smiles and can’t say ‘thanks’ enough. But he could never imagine what ‘fear of losing his case’ did to me emotionally, the blows I received from my verbal exchanges with immigration service agents, the number of hours trying to save a lost case, etc. It was like fighting in the trenches during WWI. I wonder how you did that for so many years.

        • Congratulations on a job well done. I suspect you may have saved his life by preventing his deportation and that’s BIG!

          I did some pro bono immigration work representing a few Salvadoran refugees back in the early to mid 80s. Fortunately, Congress passed a law legitimizing their status, so no clients were deported.

          Dealing with the INS was unpleasant and beyond frustrating.

          You have my respect for doing that important work, especially in these times when demonizing immigrants has become popular.


      • Tzar says:

        we all thank you on his behalf as well

      • @Jm:

        Yes, Fogen is a mentally ill socio-path. I can see that and judging by what I have read, and reviewed, he has had mental problems for a long time. His family has managed to cover up for him for a very long time. The fact that at 8 years old, he molested his own cousin for so many years tells me that this man was molested himself by someone. I don’t know who, but how could an 8 year old boy know how to stick his finger up a little girls vagina? To hear his cousin describe that just sickened me! Fogen is a sick socio-path who had no business with a gun in his possession.

      • lurker says:

        Professor, thanks for the reminder that while George is far from a victim, he is pathological.Hard to knew exactly the depth and breadth of his particular mental issues, but there are certainly plenty of possibilities to choose from. The initial medical report noted that George was referred to his psychologist–implying a prior relationship (not to mention the meds he was on). The spectre of abuse of his cousin raises questions, as well as the several legal brushes that all seem to have elements of difficulty controlling anger in physical confrontations. And the family seems to have some creepy elements: suggestions of estrangement, suggestions of maternal abuse, etc. Even papa judge’s early letter to the editor “in support” seems to run counter of what one would expect of someone with knowledge of the law and the legal system. Better to have hired counsel immediately and convince George to quit talking. Then there were those letters from an “anonymous” family member to the Attorney General and the NAACP that sounded menacing, if not downright threatening. At the time I thought that they were from George–but who knows, could have been Robert, jr.

        And then to top it all off the extreme paranoia on the part of all family members. I realize that O’Mara left that alone for the drama value and to build sympathy–but it’s almost like refusing medical treatment to an injury client until after they have won the lawsuit so that they can run up the damages or something.

      • groans says:

        I’ve read the same thing as MMPat. I think maybe wolfinger is also godfather to one of zimm’s kids. I’ll try to find it.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      I don’t think GZ talking to the police will make much of a difference. They have the nen call, Dee Dee’s statements and telephone records, the location of Trayvon’s body. I think that should’ve been enough to get GZ convicted.

    • groans says:

      @ bettykath – The REALLY SAD part of this case is that it exists at all – that a teenager’s life and then his pleas for help were stolen by a self-appointed and cowardly vigilante.

      Everything “bad” that has befallen the killer has been of his own making. And, frankly, not much bad has befallen the killer yet.

      I’m sorry this is a learning experience for you, because it is not a typical case. You may be unable to perceive the special treatment the killer received both before and after arrest, his flouting of the system, his stealing the “mantle of victimhood” from the victim, his intentional efforts to blame the victim, his webs of lies, and on and on.

      But others on this blog have suffered through nearly a year of the justice system giving the killer every kind of break and benefit of every doubt. If you find any “joy” expressed here as a result of yesterday’s hearing distasteful, it suggests to me only that you have not invested any emotional energy in seeking a conviction. And that’s OK. But for those who have, it’s also OK – very OK – to feel joy at any slight measure of justice they perceive to have meted.

      You can feel sad about the turn yesterday’s hearing took for the killer, and sad about everything that’s “happened to” the killer, and sad about the killer himself, if you want. But in doing so, I believe you’re not seeing the forest for the trees …

      … and THAT IS a typical defense strategy.

      • bettykath says:

        “I’m sorry this is a learning experience for you, because it is not a typical case. You may be unable to perceive the special treatment the killer received both before and after arrest, his flouting of the system, his stealing the “mantle of victimhood” from the victim, his intentional efforts to blame the victim, his webs of lies, and on and on. ”

        I come here mainly for the professor’s posts. That’s the primary learning experience. Occasionally I read the comments but usually get discouraged and disgusted by the blood lust that frequently shows itself in joy at anything that denigrates the defendant. It isn’t attractive even when going after a sociopath. It says more about those making the comments than it does about the defendant.

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ BettyKath

        you said:

        “I come here mainly for the professor’s posts. That’s the primary learning experience. Occasionally I read the comments but usually get discouraged and disgusted by the blood lust that frequently shows itself in joy at anything that denigrates the defendant. It isn’t attractive even when going after a sociopath. It says more about those making the comments than it does about the defendant.”

        Betty, again, you make statements that lack factual basis, are inherently fallacious and depict a personality obsessed with false sanctimony/holiness, illusions of higher ethics and grandeur. Is there anyone one on this God’s earth you get along with? I seriously wonder about that. A couple of months ago, I asked you to engage anyone you disagree with on this blog and show him/her why his/her statement(s) is/are lacking instead of pointing fingers and making blanket false allegations against people you never met before. You refused and stated at the time that you will limit yourself to reading and would not comment anymore. Hmmm, I am a little confused as it seems you can’t even keep your own word: you are still commenting, insulting, pontificating from a false high moral ground telling others how unholy they are and how they “disgust” you. Well Betty, unlike you, We here in fact proudly “REJOICE” and “SHOW JOY” when Good triumphs over Evil (no matter how small the triumph), etc. The only thing our “rejoicing” and “show of joy” say about us is that we are human: Good Men and Women zealously seeking (social) justice (in this case for one of the weakest link of society). Nothing more. Nothing less.

        What does it make you if what brings joy to 99.99% of the people on this blog brings “sadness” to you?

        What does it make you if you are “disgusted” in seeing others “rejoice” and “show joy” because The Good triumphed against The Bad?

        Think about it. Seriously.

      • @Groans:
        Excellent post Groans! Well, I am here on the East Coast, NYC and the snow is starting to come down with a vengence! My job let us out early because the roads are treacherous and the trains and buses are running but slowly so to all the Leatherman Family who are on the East Coast? GOOD LUCK and be safe!

    • roderick2012 says:

      bettykath says: I come here mainly for the professor’s posts. That’s the primary learning experience. Occasionally I read the comments but usually get discouraged and disgusted by the blood lust that frequently shows itself in joy at anything that denigrates the defendant.

      You are so wrong. The reason we’re angry is that George played God that night and took Trayvon’s life because he could and now he’s using every loophole in the law to save his sorry behind.

      We are also angry that these same laws have allowed him to stall for time, allowed him to be out of jail while awaiting the trial and the laws which allow him to smear his unarmed victim which will leave a bittersweet memory of Trayvon for his family.

      If George were any kind of man he would take responsibility for his actions that night and just head to jail but he’s been playing on the sympathies of racists not only to stay out of jail but to live a lifestyle( changing disguises in the restroom?) that he could never have accomplished if he had not taken the life of an innocent teenager.

      George is living some sick fantasies while dancing on Trayvon’s grave.

      • jm says:

        BK: “Occasionally I read the comments but usually get discouraged and disgusted by the blood lust that frequently shows itself in joy at anything that denigrates the defendant.”

        @roderick – Not a regular follower of BK posts but she does seem to have a flare for drama She reads “blood lust” and “joy” when it seems justice is served in court or posters point out GZ’s flaws and/or lies.

        I would be more joyful if GZ had regret and remorse instead of making Trayvon Martin a thug who “savagely” beat him forcing him to AIM his gun and kill him after which he fancied himself somewhat of a “superstar” thanking the masses who support him on his website and begged for money, after which he and his wife and sister plotted to hide it from the court. Not sure where “blood lust” comes in on any post but maybe I missed it or my definition of blood lust is different than BK’s.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          It’s hard to know where to begin, but okay, for starters, we on the net already know more than the jurors are likely to learn at trial. The jurors are going to see this case through several “filters”, based on the strategy of the defense, prosecution and how their maneuvers succeed or fail at keeping or making other evidence/material relevant and/or admissible. Then there’s the matter of time, we’ve been reviewing the raw evidence dumps, analyzing the audio and video files and timing events against the area maps etc., We’ve been doing this for almost a year now, a jury isn’t going to get that kind of time. Nor are they going to be able to cover all the available materials.

          What this adds up to is, we on the internet are in an extremely late trial mode. As if we were a jury with the time and the power to request and examine just about anything either side could discover.
          We also get to challenge either sides offers, to see which one the evidence is most likely to support the best.

          Thus, where we started believing that, because there was much that we didn’t know, we gave GZ the benefit of doubt. On the face of it, it just didn’t seem that a non-criminal, unarmed teen, could be so lethally violent, that a shot to the heart was required. For the longest of times we puzzled over that offer. Then came the evidence in the NeN call, where we discovered that GZ’s narratives did not match the recorded fare. While we were puzzling over these conflicts, we learned there was no dna on Trayvon’s hands, meaning the stories of the lethal attack we already found doubtful, never happened at all.

          Then GZ was discovered to have collected 300 thousand dollars and had contrived to hide it from the court, to get a low bail and he also hid a second passport, while turning in the one that expired. He sat in the court like a “potted palm” while he knew his wife was on the stand lying under oath on his behalf. So that now we knew for once and for all that GZ’s self serving statements were not to be believed without evidence to confirm them.

          The upshot of all these discoveries is that GZ shot a harmless teenager to death for absolutely no reason, and then attempted to lie about it so that he could flee and/or otherwise escape being held to account for his terrible misdeed. Thus, in a court of law, where he expect to have his right to a fair trial, he is presumed to be innocent, until proven otherwise. We are not so bound, we are free to feel as we think. The only thing we are all required to agree to is, that the accused face an impartial jury and that they be allowed to decide the facts. We do not convict people, merely because we the public have learn that they are in fact guilty. We are agreed that no matter how guilty we the public think an accused may be, we believe they are entitled to put on a defense, in front of an unbiased jury.

    • Dan Q. Smith says:

      I don’t look at it as the defendant’s “problem” and I don’t play two sides of the fence. The problem is Trayvon was murdered, period. I could not care less about the defendant’s situation. I could not care less if people find joy in seeing him brought to justice. He brought his situation on himself. I will not buy his autograph. Of his defence wanted my help and if it were possible, I’d gladly throw them an anchor.

  68. Assuming that I am right, the prosecution has no incentive to plea bargain with the defendant.

    If he wants to avoid trial, his only option may be to plead guilty as charged and hope for the best at sentencing, which is a 25-year mandatory minimum sentence.

    That’s harsh but it beats a life sentence.

    • bettykath says:

      I agree. Maybe MOM needs to have a frank discussion with the defendant about why the GPS data isn’t being provided, point out the problems of the DNA, point out other problems with his story and that it’s highly likely that he’ll be convicted and face the life sentence. I guess the best timing out be right after the SYG hearing, assuming MOM is still his attorney.

      • bettykath says:

        best time would (not “out”)

      • SearchingMind says:

        There will be no SYG- (or the traditional self-defense) immunity hearing, Betty. Given the facts of this case, anyone who attempts that is a proverbial “deadender” (word borrowed from Donald Rumsfeld). Nothing but more damage to the defense will come out of that hearing .

      • roderick2012 says:

        Search:“deadender” (word borrowed from Donald Rumsfeld).

        You’re quoting Mr. ‘There are known unknowns and unknown unknowns’?


      • Trained Observer says:

        Be glad Rummy is no longer in a power position.

      • TommysMom says:

        MOM was on In Session today and stated they will probably go ahead with the SMG hearing scheduled to happen in April. He says he doesn’t want to claim Z is indigent because that status doesn’t provide for living expenses for he and Shellie. Oh my,that is soooooooooo sad. ;-).

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Fogen’s between a rock and a hard place.

      Professor, what good would it do to have any experts if the evidence against him is truly damning? Wouldn’t it be a waste of time and money to pursue those? What do you think the defense should do, Professor?

      • “Professor, what good would it do to have any experts if the evidence against him is truly damning? Wouldn’t it be a waste of time and money to pursue those? What do you think the defense should do, Professor?”

        The defense team needed to retain respected forensic scientists to consult in areas relevant to the case. They would have reviewed the forensic reports and advised them what to do.

        I don’t know about West, but MOM seems to know nothing about forensics. In fact, the team does not appear to understand that the physical and forensic evidence will determine the outcome of this case.

        Without forensic consultants, they lack the knowledge and experience to properly assess the strengths and weaknesses of the case.

        MOM talks about the importance of understanding and using social media to win cases, when the reality is that it’s far more important to know enough about forensics to spot issues, select appropriate experts and effectively cross examine the prosecution’s experts.

        It has been obvious to me since I first looked at this case that the defendant’s story made no sense and would not withstand scrutiny. He has serious mental health issues that require assessment and careful evaluation before deciding how to proceed. Seems irresponsible and crazy to me that the defendant is driving the defense team’s bus because he is the most intellectually, psychologically and emotionally compromised member of the group.

        I suspect his issues affected his judgment and may constitute a significant mitigating factor that might have resulted in a manslaughter plea, but the defense instead chose to portray the defendant as a hero, appeal to racists by aggressively demonizing the victim, and try the case in the court of public opinion instead of the courtroom. This ratcheted up the level of pain for everyone and basically eliminated the possibility of a negotiated settlement.

        This can only end badly for the defense.

      • Trained Observer says:

        “Seems irresponsible and crazy to me that the defendant is driving the defense team’s bus because he is the most intellectually, psychologically and emotionally compromised member of the group.” –Frederick Leatherman

        That’s a diplomatic way of saying Fogen is the biggest macadamia among legal peanuts in this dented can of party mix.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Thanks for the extensive reply. What I’m reading is that the defense needs expert help in order to have a fair trial, even if the outcome is clearly negative for Fogen. Or that if the situation was murkier, the charge could be discarded or negotiated better.

        Maybe we all need to donate in order for Fogen to lose fair and square! :-/

      • Two sides to a story says:

        “That’s a diplomatic way of saying Fogen is the biggest macadamia among legal peanuts in this dented can of party mix.”

        ,:D You made my day, TO!

      • Tzar says:

        Frederick Leatherman says:
        February 6, 2013 at 4:34 pm
        I suspect his issues affected his judgment and may constitute a significant mitigating factor that might have resulted in a manslaughter plea
        , but the defense instead chose to portray the defendant as a hero, appeal to racists by aggressively demonizing the victim

        I have to disagree prof.
        having watched the killer lie and obfuscate the truth when suited to his SYG defense, during his police interviews, his reenactment and his Hannity interview and having watched him defame the victim through those lies, having watched him dehumanize the victim through his discussion of bullet caliber as he laid there on the cold wet grass bleeding still and having watched him shamelessly co-opt the victim’s last screams for help, as his own; I am quite confident in saying that he is simply a malignant sociopath with a low iq and a delusion of grandeur. Those characters are a dime a dozen in your average American prison; furthermore, I don’t believe this diagnosis would, if correct, relieve him of one iota of the moral weight of his actions.

        And when looking at his gratuitous fellatio of the police power structure, notable in his letter campaign to establish the neighborhood watch and his complaints about the police patrolmen during the public meeting at Sanford city hall, i see a manipulator with a cause, who understood who’s bread to butter in order to advance his failing career, and not a disordered mind deserving of treatment or punishment different from your average conniving criminal.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          tzar – agreed, prisoners fitting that profile are a dime a dozen. yes, some are railroaded, many arguments to be made about our prison system and the fact that many are just mentally ill or drug abusers and rehab would be more appropriate – but i do not think that is fogen’s path. i am not qualified to diagnose, but there is no cure for a sociopath.

          also, to be clear – i was in no way disagreeing with you earlier. i’m just willing to take fogen’s ass in a sling anyway it happens to occur, although my strong preference would be for a trial and conviction.

        • I strongly suspect you are 100% correct, but keep in mind that I was answering a question regarding what I would have done, if I were representing the defendant. I described the steps I would have taken, which is a different issue, and I would have followed those steps even if I agreed 100% with you.

      • Dan Q. Smith says:

        @ TommysMom

        MO’M actually said that? LMAO! Murder a child, get support payments for your wife. That only makes sense in Fogenland.

        These people are so obnoxious! I know I’m not alone in this but I can’t wait for that murdering crybaby to be locked away.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @ Tzar — “Besides I have followed your posts since huffpo, we can disagree and it’s all love! we are…e-friends :)”

        – – – – –

        i am touched, thank you. you’ve seen me fighting the good fight for quite a while then. i am not sure i know your name there – it’s a challenge for me to keep folks straight when they use different posting names. my secret decoder ring is getting cloudy and i should just start keeping a list.

      • leander22 says:

        Tzar, nothing you write contradicts what the Professor wrote. In as far as all the things you cite may be related with a bigger psychological or even physiological problem.

        I spare you further excursions or meditations on the problem.

        This body language specialist is interesting though. I had a pretty similar response to his serial apologies, which in hindsight I only searched in the way he put it or in language.

        In any case this guy on the witness stand would be a disaster, we read these signal without realizing. i circled the frontal lobes in this context, I am not sure if GZ does not have a limited capacity in more than just one of its functions.

    • Eric says:

      Fogen deserves life. Or, maybe 65 years. That would give him hope but at the same time deny him hope.

      • Kelly Payne says:

        He deserves 0 chance to walk the streets again. he gave Trayvon no chance to live at all. He followed then pursued,then he illegally tried to detain,when Trayvon resisted he pulled his gun aimed at trayvon’s chest (being careful not to shoot his own hand)and shot him in such a away that left no chance he could survive.despite Trayvon’s desperate cries. he killed him. despite the tears streaming down his face he killed him. He showed no compassion no mercy. He had nothing but hatred and contempt for Trayvon.He made the last minutes of Trayvon’s life a living hell and he died without never knowing who this man was he never knew the police were coming. All trayvon knew was fear then terror then panic and finally despair when he realized no one was coming to help him. No kid deserves to be treated like that. Zimmerscum deserves nothing but misery and despair fir the rest of his life. I first wanted him to die a slow and painful death but now i think death is too easy for him. he deserves to live a nice long life of misery and despair. I want him to suffer for what he did to an innocent kid who just went to buy himself a drink and candy for his future step brother. He should have left Trayvon alone.

    • Tzar says:

      I want the truth exhibited in this case

      I want Trayvon’s name exonerated from all the deeply hurtful assaults and implications on his character.

      I want Trayvon’s accusers to be left silent, no more excuses, no more conspiracy theories, just silent.

      I want the chief of police and DA Wolfinger dragged into court by their sorry necks and made to explain to the community they were supposed to protect and to the justice system they were suppose to uphold why they got it so wrong and the whys and hows they could twist their mouths to defame a dead fleeing unarmed victims.

      I do not want a plea.
      I want the truth and justice to have its day in bright glorious sunshine.

      • Tzar says:

        edits: victim not victims


        “bright glorious disinfecting sunshine”

      • fauxmccoy says:

        tzar – while i admire your passion, i would take a plea bargain as a ‘no contest’ which by default exonerates martin of any and all wrong doing. just my two cents.

        wolfinger will likely never be brought into this case, that will be under any federal obstruction case currently being investigated.

      • Tzar says:

        I want his exoneration in the court of public opinion not in the legal court. This kid’s family has had to watch his name dragged through the mud. They need to get the truth.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          if the defendant should happen to plead no contest, it paves the way for civil suits quite nicely.

          i really do understand what you are saying, just approach it from the ‘there are more than one ways to skin a cat’ perspective.

      • looneydoone says:

        I too want to see Wolfinger, Lee and others who acted to cover-up the murder of Trayvon brought to justice.
        The cynic in me says that “DAV of the year 2007” is going to get a pass. I don’t believe the State or the Feds want to review the cases that crossed his desk during his 28 year career as a State Atty. I’m truly pessimistic about the possibility any of the players will be brought to account…CYA runs deep and wide.

      • amsterdam1234 says:


      • @Tzar

        I want his exoneration in the court of public opinion not in the legal court. This kid’s family has had to watch his name dragged through the mud. They need to get the truth.

        I’m there with you!

      • @Tzar:

        ^High five Tzar! I agree. I want this POS Fogen, to publicly state he murdered Trayvon Martin with impunity but I know that will NEVER happen! I also want Tray’s name to be exonerated from the deply hurful assaults and implications on his character. I want Wolfie and Lee to be dragged into court, and charges against them leveled for obstruction of justice and witness tampering. along with any others who participated in the cover up of this murder. I want those over on the Doghouse websites and the other racist websites to be permanantly silenced after Fogen is convicted or muder! I want Fogen’s family to be humiliated especially, Robert Z. Sr. and Jr. They both are absolutely despicable!

      • Malisha says:

        I’m with you, Tzar.
        I don’t know if we will get what we want, but I want it too.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Another thought about defense experts. Good experts who help the defense put on a good fight, even if they can’t win, would lay to rest the perception that Fogen is being railroaded.

      • groans says:

        I would think a plea of “guilty” would be an admission of guilt. But I know what Tzar and the others are saying – that it would be perceived by the killer-supporters as the killer being “railroaded.”

        But we should not delude ourselves. The killer-supporters are not rational. They DO NOT, and likely will never, live in an evidence-based world.

        It will not matter if there’s a full-blown immunity hearing and a full-blown trial, with a full battery of defense experts on board. If it ends in a bad result for the killer, they will never accept it. They will blame the judge’s rulings in the case, the jury members, the phase of the moon – anything – things we can’t even imagine yet. They will NEVER, EVER be satisfied with the inevitable bad result for the killer.

        That’s something we need to teach our children, for purposes of this case and also to prepare them for life in general. Irrational people say irrational things, think irrational (or worse) thoughts, and cannot be dissuaded by reason or facts. We can teach our children to be critical thinkers, and teach them the importance of that skill – and use the killer-supporters only as examples of what it looks like when people refuse to live evidence-based lives.

        • FYI: A guilty plea is constitutionally invalid unless it is supported by a statement from the defendant under oath describing what he did. The statement must contain facts that, if true, would establish every element of the crime or crimes to which he is pleading guilty.

          The statement and the decision to give up the right to a jury trial and plead guilty must be knowing, intelligent and voluntary. That means the defendant has to know what constitutional rights he is giving up if he pleads guilty, the maximum sentence that he might receive and any benefits he may have been promised if he pleads guilty.

          Defense counsel usually write out the statement for the client to sign simplifying and condensing it to a bare bones statement that is sufficient to establish the elements of the crime.

          I don’t believe such a brief statement would contain as much information as many of you would like to see.

          • Prof.

            Are you saying that if fogen pleads guilty….he will actually give a confession in public court……him admitting to the crime he committed and how it ACTUALLY came down?

            WOW……I don’t think he has the balls to do it…..then again….it would be one hell of a sight !!!!!!!

      • Tzar….I completely agree with you! If fogen pleads, we’ll never know what happened and his supporters will say he was pressured into doing it. I don’t want him to commit suicide either because we’ll never know what happened and his supporters will say he was under pressure from all the negativity from the State and Trayvon supporters. Either he should “man up” and fully admit what he did and take his lumps or take it to trial and expose him for what he really is and what he really did.

      • aussie says:

        Frederick writes
        “FYI: A guilty plea is constitutionally invalid unless it is supported by a statement from the defendant under oath describing what he did. ”

        and THAT is why I don’t see GZ taking a plea.

        If a full trial finds him guilty, he can keep on believing he’s innocent. Having to ADMIT guilt would take that away from him. Then there’s the embarrassment of having said the opposite for so long, and fooling so many people for so long.

        I am sure he knows some of what he’s been saying isn’t the exact truth, but that is to be expected if he doesn’t want to be in trouble. But deep down he believes he was justified, and he doesn’t KNOW WHY HE DID IT.

        I very much doubt he has the insight to see himself as a wannabe, or admit being driven by his ego, or understand he had no right to try interrogating Trayvon. I doubt he understands he pulled the trigger to remove a witness to his own illegal actions, because I doubt he understands what he did was illegal.

        He won’t take a plea. He’ll listen glumly to the evidence, then make an unsworn statement to the effect that it was self defence. This may take the form of shouting and ranting against witnesses, so he may not be in the room for the whole proceedings.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Exactly and to a T, Tzar

      • Dan Q. Smith says:

        I hear you. I read an article at Black Agenda Report about Wolfinger’s record concerning how he dealt with black vs. white defendants. It’s chilling. The man is truly evil.

        If it’s any consolation, I believe the corporate media’s typical ploy of faux-objectivity and “two sides to every story” has grotesquely over-amplified the rascists’ point of view. People took to the steets for Trayvon. They don’t do that everyday. I think Trayvon’s name will be well remembered. Fogen, not so much.

        • What would really blow their socks of would be a “White” peoples march in support of Trayvon……….Guaranteed I’d be in the first row.

          • Xena says:


            What would really blow their socks of would be a “White” peoples march in support of Trayvon……….Guaranteed I’d be in the first row.

            Justin Reilly would be there with you.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I SO agree you, Tzar, and with aussie and grey winter sky. I hope to link arms with mountain man pat at the caucasian march for Trayvon. I’ll be the one with the hoodie!

    • MelRoy says:

      Do you think at some point they’ll introduce diminished capacity as a defence, Professor?

      • Tzar says:

        if you watch the reenactment and his interviews where he lies his ass off or obfuscate as much as he can, you will see that this is out of the question.

    • annahkonda says:

      Not quite as harsh as Trayvon’s death.

  69. Michelle says:

    What actually could the GPS show and why are they not talking about GZ’s cell info?

    • SearchingMind says:

      The GPS might show Trayvon’s movements and the route he took from his home to the 7-11 store and back. Such information might directly contradict George the Butcher’s narratives.

      The prosecution does not talk about anything including the Butchers phone records. Only the defense talks and the only reason why the defense is not talking about those records is because it might be toxic, hence damaging to the Butcher of Sanford.

      • @SearchingMind:

        LMAO! “The Butcher of Sanford?” LOL! Thanks for the response to Michelle. I wanted to know that as well, because I am completely illiterate when it comes to those things. My hubby and son are trying to teach me. However, why does the defense want to see the GPS so badly from Tray’s phone? Will that help them in any way? The Butcher of Sanford is toxic anyway you look at it! I have been home sick with a very bad cold, and watching the hearing yesterday was no joke. Fogen looked pained, dejected and sad. GOOD! He knows what is coming and it cannot be fast enough for me.

        Check out our very own LLMPapa’s two new video’s! They are it! The man is a genius!

      • Tzar says:

        “The butcher of Sanford”…can I borrow that?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The GPS data from TM’s phone will also help us with a more important matter as well, where TM went after fleeing GZ’s attentions.

          The idea that “doubling back” might mean anything exculpatory at this point in time is negated, because TM has no evidence of having attacked anyone, even if he did turn around and head back north.

          Without the required DNA or trace on TM’s hands, nothing about TM’s GPS data can be considered exculpatory. Because there is no evidence on Trayvon that could have resulted from him waging any attack.

          It would be nice to know where TM went and how he arrived at the final location, but it’s not necessary to prove GZ’s guilt. It would also be nice to know where GZ went after his NeN call ended. But, that isn’t needed either, to prove that GZ is guilty.

          All that is needed to prove GZ guilty is, to prove that GZ was not fending off a life threatening attack when he pulled the trigger. The fact that he did not have both hands engaged in his own defense, prove the point very nicely, that GZ was under no such potentially lethal attack at the time he pulled the trigger. Doubly so, because unarmed teens, untrained in any combat arts, are not generally though of as potentially lethal assailants, hell, even most unarmed adults are not as well.

          Justice for Trayvon is Coming: |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ Tzar,

        Pls. do, by all means. I hope de demonstrators in Florida will display it (‘George Zimmerman: The Butcher of Sanford’) on their huge placards and demonstrate with it.

      • lsimon3321 says:

        I’d like for GZ’s GPS information for that night to be disclosed. I wonder if it will indicate that he returned to his vehicle, left the phone and returned with his gun to continue searching for TM. I do not understand why this man’s defense depends totally on TM’s information (school, phone, social media) but not his own.

    • Xena says:

      Remembering what Dave and Taaffe talked about in Dave’s video, the FBI believes that Trayvon entered the gated community through a route other than the one by Frank’s house. The FBI would not say that for nothing.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Considering that Tracey and Brandy say that Trayvon had not walked to the store before, I must devolve to my very earliest theory, that he used the main/pedestrian gate. My guess is he would be so unfamiliar with those other areas, he would not have felt comfortable using them.

      • lsimon3321 says:

        I think with those houses all looking the same that it would not be surprising that in the dark, on a rainy night, he was “looking about” because he was trying to find something to distinguish one from the other. The vehicles were the only things to distinguish them.

        • If he was even “looking about.”

          Since Trayvon was in the mail shed sheltering from the rain and talking to DD when the defendant first saw him, instead of emerging from the cut-through next to Taaffe’s house and strolling through Taaffe’s yard heading toward the clubhouse as the defendant falsely claimed, I am not inclined to believe anything the defendant said regarding his encounter with Trayvon that cannot be independently verified.

  70. CShell says:

    If Zimmerman is declared indigent (again) and unable to pay for security, is it possible that his bond will be revoked (again); sending him back to jail to await trial?

    • Jun says:

      I think so

      but it should not be difficult to scrounge up $8 per day for the GPS… he could you know, get a job or something…

    • SearchingMind says:

      No, and yes. If Fogen cannot pay for “security” his bail will remain intact. He will remain free at his own risk. If he cannot pay for the leash on him (i.e. GPS-tracker that costs $8 per day), that changes the equation: Fogen will be heading back to jail.

    • crazy1946 says:

      I’m sure some body will correct me if I am wrong, but my memory seems to recall the bonding company had some security requirements for Fogon to adhere to also. Probably to ensure that he did not rabbit on them….

    • aussie says:

      I don’t think indigent means a person has zero money. It means “unable to pay for lawyers”. I am sure someone on social security would be allowed to keep it for their living expenses and still count as indigent.

      • roderick2012 says:

        aussie:means “unable to pay for lawyers”.

        O’Mara stated that he’s working pro bono except for that $40K office improvement funded by the defense fund.

    • cielo62 says:

      OVER 500 comments! I missed alot! MY guess is that Zimmerman will EITHER find himself a sugar momma OR go to jail. Without funds he can’t pay his own expenses. And with his reputation, he can’t get credit.

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