Right Wing Hate Fest Mars Super Bowl Weekend

Monday, February 4, 2013

Congratulations to the Baltimore Ravens and their fans for winning the Super Bowl.

I have some important matters to attend to today that will take me away from the blog until this evening.

I begin with five quick comments about the deaths of Chris Kyle, the former Navy Seal, his friend, gun trolls and the right wing hate fest over the weekend.

I end with a short post inspired by Looneydoone. It’s about the difference between an accomplice and an accessory after the fact. I also discuss the duress defense and how these legal terms might apply to any residents of the RTL in the Trayvon Martin murder case. This discussion is a follow-up to yesterday’s post, Why Did John (W6) Lie to the Police?

A. Chris Kyle, Gun Trolls and the Right Wing Hate Fest

First, I extend my condolences to Chris Kyles’s family and friends and to his friend’s family and friends.

Second, I believe Chris Kyle and his friend made a very serious mistake when they invited the shooter to go to the shooting range, knowing when they did so that he was suffering from PTSD. That seems like the equivalent of playing Russian Roulette. Poor judgment by the victims contributed to this tragedy and that is a powerful mitigating factor that must be considered.

Third, I believe that a murder charge is not appropriate, if as I suspect, the shooter was experiencing a flashback and did not realize that he was killing his friends. This appears to be a diminished capacity situation that is both a potential defense and a powerful mitigating factor that also must be considered.

Fourth, the incredible right-wing tsunami of nasty, hateful and disgusting filth that exploded on twitter over the weekend in response to Clara Jeffrey’s rather mild post at Mother Jones about the shooting, stands as a memorial to hate speech and a vivid reminder that these people are crazy and dangerous.

The sick people who spewed hate and wallowed in their foul excrement this weekend are not unknown to us. They speak with the same voice as the racists who daily demonize and denigrate Trayvon Martin, his family and all who seek Justice for Trayvon.

They are an abomination among us.

Federal and state law enforcement should focus on identifying, prosecuting, convicting and imprisoning them when they step over the line because they are real terrorists and it’s only a matter of time before they take to the streets with their precious guns and start killing people like you and me.

Instead of stripping WWII veterans and grandmothers in wheelchairs at airports to keep us safe, law enforcement needs to get its shit together and go after the real terrorists.

I will step down from my soapbox now.

B. Accomplice and Accessory-After-the-Fact Liability, the Duress Defense and the Felony-Murder Rule

Looneydoone posted this question at 8:13 am today:

“Might those who made calls to alert the fogen of Trayvon’s whereabouts be considered accessories?

I ask, because a friend was murdered during a botched kidnapping for ransom last year. To date, 8 persons have been arrested, and are being held on $10 million bond (each). Not all 8 were present when the attempted kidnapping took place, but were involved with tracking my friend’s whereabouts.

You asked an excellent question.

First, please accept my condolences for the loss your friend.

To be an accomplice to a crime, a person has to specifically intend to assist another person to commit that crime. The crime charged in Trayvon’s case is a murder and there would have to be evidence that the other people knew he intended to kill Trayvon and assisted him to do so.

In W6’s case, for example, the prosecution would have to show that he knew the defendant intended to kill Trayvon and he assisted him to do so by telling him where he was. This sounds like the scenario in the case that you mentioned.

An accomplice is guilty of the same crime and subject to the same sentence as the actual perpetrator.

If “all” that W6 did was to provide a false story to support the defendant’s claim of self-defense, he would have acted as an accessory after the fact by assisting him to get away with murder. This crime is less serious with a shorter sentence.

W6 would have a defense to the accessory charge, if he told the false story because the defendant threatened to kill him if he did not. This is an example of the duress defense.

Duress is an affirmative defense (i.e., defendant admits he committed the unlawful act with intent to do so, but claims he only did it because he was forced or threatened with harm, if he did not).

Duress is a defense to every crime except murder.

Finally, there is an issue in your friend’s case regarding whether any of the participants can be charged with murder, since killing your friend was unintentional.

Pursuant to the felony-murder rule, a person can be charged with first degree (i.e., premeditated) murder, even if he did not intend to kill the victim, if the victim died during the commission of a first degree felony. Kidnapping is a felony and kidnapping someone by using a deadly weapon or firearm is first degree kidnapping. Therefore, accomplices can be charged with first degree murder.

Hasta luego,


337 Responses to Right Wing Hate Fest Mars Super Bowl Weekend

  1. colin black says:

    No need too appoligist to me mate I was never offended.

    Just thanks gor comeing back .

    Thats what thease eejits want to do.
    They dopnt even beleive half the shite thew talk.
    An the other half they ad lib as thet go to get max responce.

    Fools will sit an chuckle at there moniters when they get a respoce .
    The more negative the bigger the bonner these sad sacks get.

    Dont give them the satisfaction of riseing to there hate

    Unlike conventional war strategy of keep your freinds close .
    An yet keep your enemys closer.

    In the virtual cyber world its keep your freinds close but all ways at arms length re email personal info ect.

    Of course that can change if a freinship also progresses
    But Im talking in genral

    And in the cyber world you dont keep enemeys close at all.


    You ignore them if they fail to get a response from you they get frustrarted.
    As thats what they troll for to upsett people.
    They themselfs are deeply unhappy an the only thing that gives them pleasure is to share it.

    In jail there misery factorys all this honour among theifes.
    Code of conduct is a MYTH,,,,,
    If a person can get a pass or a deal on a short sentace.
    They will inform on there Mother or Brother.

    Or if your sitting in a celll halfway through a three year strech.
    Guy moves into cell next door you converse through gaps in pipes or through the window if you dont mind half the cell block listening to your convo.

    Or you use kites in America they call it fishing
    Bacicly notes on threads you make from unravelling blankets.

    So you find out maybe the new guys starting an 8yrs sentance.

    An you comiseaters with him an all that.

    But in reality your like yikes that guys got a ton of time.
    An i will hit the pavement yrs before him
    An it puts a big grin acrosss your face,
    Germans have a word for it.
    Saddenfrued??? not sure

    Anyway Pat glad you know your freinds wo0nt let you just up an go.
    Next step your photo woulda been on milk cartons
    double cream an all/

  2. Blushed….There must be 8 to 10 Does with their Fawns that come around here daily………..Cleaning up under the bird feeders for anything dropped…….We have most of them named 🙂



    • blushedbrown says:


      When the season comes around for new fawns, I want one named after me, Blush. 🙂 and take a picture too!

  3. colin black says:

    Sorry if im dittoing something somother has said
    Cant wait to reaad all comments must respond stat as soon as I read this.

    mountainmanpat says:

    February 4, 2013 at 10:00 pm

    @ YAHTC, Blushed, Xena, Cieleo & the Prof.

    I now have to leave this blog as some consider my military service on the equal of fogen…..Pissed?…Damn right I am.

    JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON……….that is the last I have to say.

    Ya’ll take care

    Guten Nacht



    Dont you frakkin Dare leave this disscusssion group.
    Who cares what some deluded uncareing people think of the Militry an those whom serve.
    And have the insolance to put soldiers on a par with murderes.

    None realise the horror an futility the downright hatefull ness that war can inflict.
    Not only on the combatants.
    But the collateral damage to infasrtucture .
    That will impose years more suffering on the civilan population.

    Soldiers know this as they are experts first han observers of the horror of war not hearsay.

    Its not like in the movies the noise an

    smell an terror will stay with them for ever.

    Those whom seek to paint our servicemen an women in a negative way an compare them to a frenssied killmad kid blasting enemys for fun like on a games console.
    Or to a depraved fool like foggen
    Have no clue,

    So Im begging you Pat
    Eyes foward Soldier best finger at the ready
    An carry on speaking for Trayvon .
    With your unique wit an sence and downright common to goodnes heart an soul.

    Your fighting for Trayvon now.

    Permission to leave your post denied.

    Although I understand your anger remember its a minority talking jive.
    The majority are behind you.
    A period of compasionate leave will be granted if you wish a cool of period
    But like Arnie pls Be Back……………….

  4. roderick2012 says:

    I apologize to anyone if I offended them but it disturbs me greatly how fear is tearing this country apart and no one wants to consider anyone else.

    We have the gun right nuts who insist that there not be any restrictions on any type of weapon while we lose people daily to unnecessary gun violence, but we have these people who believe in this myth that every American is an island unto himself.

    Professor, thanks for the email and I apologize if I disrupted your blog.

  5. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    excerpt from “Happy 18th Birthday, Trayvon Martin! by Michael Skolnik”

    Trayvon Martin would have been eighteen years old today. He had lived an ordinary life that in the flash of a gunshot turned into an extraordinary nightmare. It was just a day like any other day. A young man whose only concern was getting home to watch a basketball game on television. The only thing that made it significant was that Trayvon would never make it home. With a bag of skittles still in the pocket of his hoodie and a can of ice tea lying next to his body, at barely seventeen years old, Trayvon would take his last breath in the small city of Sanford, Florida, the victim of a one bullet wound to the chest. He had no idea it would turn into this.

    His mother and father woke up this morning without their son. His brother woke up this morning without his brother. His extended family woke up this morning with no words to write on his birthday card. His friends woke up this morning to an empty chair in the classroom. America woke up this morning with a heavy heart.

    Since the death of Trayvon Martin, the masses of the people have joined in. Led by the indescribable courage of his mother, father and brother, people from around the world have joined the movement for justice and will light eighteen candles today celebrating the birth of this angel most of us have never met. We never met Rosa either. Or Martin. Or Malcolm. Or Bobby. Or Jack. We never met Medgar. Or Emmett. Or the four little girls. We know they await us for our arrival in the kingdom of heaven, but have asked that we take our time to get there, as they know that our work is not done. We wipe away the tears, we dust off the dirt, we tighten up our belts, and we carry on. We let those eighteen candles burn not just on top of a cake, but inside of our hearts, for Trayvon deserves that we fight for an America that is safe for all of our precious children.

    At the time of his death, he had not idea it would turn into this. But, my dear brother, in your memory, please know that we will not stop.

    ~Michael Skolnik (February 5, 2013)

    Read more: http://globalgrind.com/news/happy-18th-birthday-trayvon-martin-michael-skolnik#ixzz2K1r69QcC

  6. SearchingMind says:

    @ Racerrodig

    The FAKE sdunn5 really conned both of us (Mike figured him out really quick!). Growing up my dad thought I was very “naïve”. My mother thought I was “innocent”. Guess what, I turned 32 last month and nothing has changed! Dad was right: I am incurably “naïve” and see the bad in others only after the damage has been done. Stupid me!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      You are 32?

      Perfect, because I know your age group does a lot of facebooking.

      Here is a suggestion:

      Why don’t you write your Facebook friends and remind them that today would have been Trayvon’s 18th birthday?

      You can then ask them to remind all of their Facebook friends.

      This would have a snowball effect with thousands of people remembering Trayvon!

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ YAHTC

        The only thing I have in common with most men of my generation is probably cars and owning a nice house. Many things that interest my generation doesn’t really interest or mean anything me. Facebook, and I am not there, never meant anything to me. I am not on twitter either and frankly do not understand why adults are on twitter. So, I would love to do what you asked me for Trayvon, but can’t. Unfortunately.

    • You made a mistake and so did I, but I stepped in it deeper than you did by scornfully telling Mike to get his head screwed on straight.

      Not only that, I made the same mistake way back in the late summer when I scornfully rejected someone’s warning that Ajai was a troll. I told that person he was troll for accusing her of being a troll.

      Plus, I’m a little more than twice your age.

      Now, I could conclude that I’m twice as stupid as you are, but I don’t really believe either of us is stupid.

      I’m not terribly fond of self-flagellation, much less self-immolation.

      We have apologized from the heart, which is all that we can do.

      Therefore, let’s resolve to move on and try to make today a better day for someone other than ourselves, knowing as we do so, that despite our mistakes, giving the benefit of doubt to someone we think we know will almost always be a better strategy with a better outcome than assuming the worst.

      The bad actor here here is the troll.

  7. Judy75201 says:

    Today would have been Trayvon Benjamin Martin’s 18th birthday had he not been savagely murdered.

    More than anything, I wish Trayvon was here to experience it.

    • Rachael says:

      A milestone birthday. The day he would have been no longer a minor. An°c adult. A day both he and his parents must have looked forward to. Now Trayvon will always be a child, forever 17. Rest in peace Trayvon.

    • SearchingMind says:

      A very sad but solemn day indeed – in remembrance of Trayvon Benjamin Martin. A kid who was killed for being an African American kid in the wrong place and at a wrong time – by a racist psychopath who, among others, suffers from inferiority complex and desperately wants to be accepted as white. Each day that passes, ‘George Zimmerman: The Butcher of Sanford’ gets closer to the dungeon where he will spend the rest of his useless adult life.

  8. Jun says:

    Considering thus far, what we know of Fogenhats, his psychological profile is he either feels he is better and stronger than something and will unleash his will to force others to bow down to him, or, he actually finds people who would be easy victims for himself to victimize, as well, he is a pathological liar and manipulator…

    Now he used his title as seen by his history, to manipulate law enforcement, probably to the point they told him he better stop calling 911 over BS…

    He stalks, threatens, attacks, and kills the victim, Trayvon…

    No one knows who he is, a vast majority, so Fogenhats tries again to use his NW title to talk to neighbors and gain info or other forms of manipulation, so he does not have to face justice

  9. And what would have been a milestone celebration today……
    Trayvon’s 18th Birthday! He will not be forgotten.

  10. Less than six hours left……

  11. PiranhaMom says:

    Wow, Professor Fred –

    Thanks for the action on the fake SDunn5. Those posts struck me as pretty trollish, too. Amazed that you could track the IP. Good move!

    • kimmi says:

      Yes, thank you Professor!
      When I was reading some of the posts I missed from yesterday, that one threw me for a loop!

  12. kimmi says:

    sdunn5 says:
    February 4, 2013 at 3:11 pm
    This is to kimmi…..freedom of information in my opinion is Federal. Perpetuating facts not in evidence i.e. Bill Lee escorting…huh where did you get that information. I think you owe it to this blog to answer that question. I know you wont !!

    Excuse Me? You’re wrong, I don’t perpetuate facts.
    I’m posting the link here in case you missed my response yesterday.
    I went back to read some of the posts I missed and I found this.
    I’m pretty sure there was another source that had the same information, re: Chief Lee ESCORTING someone out of the March 1 HOA meeting, but if you want it, you can google it.

    George Zimmerman Neighbors Complained About Aggressive Tactics Before Trayvon Martin Killing


    “At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1,
    one man was ESCORTED OUT because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics” in his neighborhood watch captain role.”

    SORRY, if this has been double posted, I hit post comment and it didn’t appear, so I am reposting it just in case, so sdunn5 can see that Malisha and/or I do not perpetuate facts.

  13. kimmi says:

    sdunn5 says:
    February 4, 2013 at 3:11 pm
    This is to kimmi…..freedom of information in my opinion is Federal. Perpetuating facts not in evidence i.e. Bill Lee escorting…huh where did you get that information. I think you owe it to this blog to answer that question. I know you wont !!

    Excuse Me? You’re wrong, I don’t perpetuate facts.
    I’m posting the link here too, in case you missed it yesterday…
    I only caught it because I went back and was reading some of the posts I missed. I’m pretty sure there was another source for this information, but if you want it, you can google it.

    George Zimmerman Neighbors Complained About Aggressive Tactics Before Trayvon Martin Killing


    “At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was ESCORTED OUT because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics” in his neighborhood watch captain role.”

  14. blushedbrown says:

    For Racer…..

    Good Night all……

  15. I have been out most of the day and returned to discover that some unpleasantness has broken out.

    I have banned Sdunn5 because I think a troll hacked her account. The person posting under her name used a different IP address. I emailed the real SDunn and asked her to contact me.

    I emailed Roderick with a private message and now consider that matter resolved.

    Sorry for the inconvenience and unpleasantness.

    Carry on.

    • kimmi says:

      I wondered if that was a treeper, I almost asked, but I didn’t!

      • The troll wants to cause chaos among us and destroy our unity. (I tried to find this person on HP and the outhouse to see if they posted there too. But I remember sdunn5 posting here and also thought that the currant comments were odd.) I’m glad that the Professor discovered this. I unfortunately, expect that they will try more of this same nonsense as the trial grows closer.

    • kimmi says:

      What is it with them anyway? They always seem to deny the ‘facts’ and then when you give them the ‘facts’ they usually refuse to believe/acknowledge them…seems to be the MO of all of them! Oh well. Birds of a feather…

    • kimmi says:

      It was quite tempting, I almost asked sdunn5…
      Are you the Real George Zimmerman/I mean Fogen?

    • Mike says:

      Thank you.

      • Mike says:

        I can’t say that I know the real sdunn, but the language from the imposter was not of a true supporter IMO. That was a CTH poster that’s trying to make this blogg look like something it’s not by posting here and copy and pasting her shenanigans at the CTH and passing it off as a martin supporter,saying the words that she posted.

        • Xena says:

          @Mike, you are correct. I put on my hip boots and did find the following:

          arkansasmimi says:
          February 4, 2013 at 10:28 pm
          ROFLMBO! They turning on one another over at Leatherheads blog on gun control and soldiers and such. Bahhhahahahahahaha

          And this, copied here in pertinent part;

          mung says:
          February 4, 2013 at 10:53 am
          The posters name says it all:
          looneydoone says:
          February 4, 2013 at 8:13 am

          IIRC, I posted previously that arkansasmimi is Alexandra’s (add a letter because she changes them) tag-teamer. Months ago, I read where Alexandra admitted to posting as Mung and Mungo on another blog. In other words, Alexandra or arkansasmimi starts something, and the other one back-pats to praise and/or progress it.

          How do I know? Because several blog owners, myself included, have communicated after receiving threatening comments in the same manner, from the same IP addresses with the same handles. If it’s not arkansasmimi and AlexP, aka AlexM, aka AlexandraM, aka AlexandraP, aka Jordan2222, then it is someone using their handles, posing as them, to violate law.

          Now, I need to take a shower after going over into that filth. Goodnight.

          • This makes me glad & happy that I returned (after many promptings)

            Just to show them that we can work out our differences, and in turn stay united in our support of Trayvon.

          • We sometimes have our little spats
            Even fight like dogs and cats
            But when we need each other
            That’s when we’re Ruff ‘n Reddy

          • TY Prof.

            And if you’ve read in the blog that I have a case going against an outfit that was selling collectables for us?

            It just got better last week as someone impersonating a police officer called and tried to intimidate my mate….less than 24 hours after they were served papers….There is now an investigation into it.

            I believe St. Joe Pesci has given us the golden baseball bat to clobber them with 🙂

      • looneydoone says:

        Well, well, I see I have the attention of a poster at the treehouse after posting a link that establishes as fact GOPTP conference had speakers and workshops hosted by white supremacists, xtian dominionists, anti-gay and anti-Semite invitee’s 😉

        • Xena says:


          Well, well, I see I have the attention of a poster at the treehouse after posting a link that establishes as fact GOPTP conference had speakers and workshops hosted by white supremacists, …

          GOOD That means you are more important to them than GZ is.

  16. Memorial Tribute: Protesting The Killing of Trayvon Martin

    Keep in mind tomorrow would have been Trayvon’s 18th birthday.

  17. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I am going to light a candle for Trayvon in about 50 minutes.

  18. You all have thoughtful comments says:

  19. As Shannon in Miami says…Hi kids! (She is so adorable)

    Central Florida News 13 will be carrying the hearing live.


  20. sdunn5 says:

    From my driveway at 1111 RETREAT VIEW CIRCLE on 2-26-12
    2012 Pink Ferrarie (sic) Fl. Plate# “HOT LIPS”. Car last seen @ 17:59:59 in my driveway. If anyone sees my car Please call the Sanford Police Department their number is 911

  21. Dennis says:

    I think people misinterpreted the tweets by Mother Jones. I think they took her comment as poking fun at the well trained soldier’s inability to take out an armed crazy person. Her comment was not meant to be disrespectful at all, but that is just how some people took it. I don’t agree with most of her gun control babble though. Countless numbers of people with minimal training have shot intruders that broke into the house. She is trying to use this terrible tragedy as evidence that guns don’t protect good people. I have every right to be a responsible gun owner, to protect my family and protect myself from tyrannical government. That is why the 2nd amendment exists, to protect us from tyrannical governments. Sheriffs around the country now are stating they will not enforce any government infringements on the 2nd amendment. The State is more powerful than the Fed. Once the people realize this, we can take our country back from our government in a peaceful manner. Everyone thinks America is the best country in the world, but does a great country murder its own Presidents and people and send their children to die in wars based on complete lies?

    • Malisha says:

      The things that go wrong with our country really have meaning for you when you are killed in a war, kill in a war, or are murdered in the backyard of a gated community. My heart is sore tonight.

    • Puck says:

      The state is most definitely not more powerful than the federal government, and that’s enshrined in the Constitution along with the Second Amendment.


      You can’t pick and choose.

      There’s also the matter of District of Columbia v. Heller, in which “the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home *within many longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession listed by the Court as being consistent with the Second Amendment*.” (emphasis mine) “Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      State’s rights, Dennis?

      This poster (from November 10 under an MSNBC article) might give all of us some food for thought:


      you all have thoughtful comments: The situation inside the Republican Party is serious. The poorly educated, far right wing, extremist, fanatics in the Party are moving toward demanding the states’ rights doctrine of “Nullification.” They argue the Constitution reads that any given state, not the U.S. Supreme Court has the authority to declare a law unconstitutional in any given state. In other words, a state has the constitutional authority to “nullify” a federal law and therefore not obey it within the geographic bounds of that state. It is true that Jefferson and Madison made that argument in their Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions, but it is also true those Resolutions never did pass the Congress. The issue was resolved in 1803 when Chief Justice John Marshall and the U. S.Supreme Court ruled in Marbury vs Madison that the Court had that authority.

      The poorly educated, far right wing, extreme, fanatics in the Republican Party today are joining together in an organization called the 10th Amendment Society to demand the states adopt the “nullification doctrine.” Why? One of the main reasons is to nullify the 1954 Brown v. Topeka Board of Education decision, the decision that ordered segregation was not constitutional and that the United States would integrate at all deliberate speed. So, if the nullification doctrine were put into place, Arkansas legislature or the Mississippi legislature, or the Alabama legislature could nullify the Brown case and return the state to segregation. Not possible you say? Then, take a look at the voter statistics for those states and see how many whites voted for Obama. Think about that very real possibility and then let your mind run free to all of the other federal laws that could be nullified within the borders of the fifty states. In effect, nullification means that each state is a separate country and that therefore the United States is nothing more than a confederation of united states of america.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      But it’s true that guns don’t always protect good people. More guns really aren’t the answer.

  22. Xena says:

    To all of those who served in the U.S. Armed Forces, thank you. To those who gave the ultimate sacrifice, R.I.P.

    Then there is another — a young man who did not live to see his 18th birthday because a man with a depraved mind carrying a gun decided he was “assholes” and “punks” who always got away.

    I don’t know about anyone else, but there’s anticipation in my spirit for tomorrow’s hearing. It’s Trayvon’s day to shine. Here’s praying and sending positive thoughts to BDLR and the rest of the prosecution. Get him, BDLR. Get GZ.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Xena — Yes, much anticipation. Hopefully Judge Nelson will make it clear her reputation as tough on criminals isn’t just hear-say and rumor. I’d like to see her tell MOM to quit orchestrating press conferences and fundraisers and, instead, to get cracking on whatever defense he can muster for this lying murderer.
      Orlando Sentinel is reporting that Travon’s folks won’t be at the hearing, but will be at birthday memorial-related events at courthouse and elsewhere.

      Am wondering if Fogen ( too fat to get into his suit, and unable to afford a new one) will call in sick tomorrow.

      • Xena says:

        @Trained Observer. I believe that GZ must appear in court. Maybe he can still get into his sports jacket. Actually, I feel pity for him regarding his weight gain. That much weight in several months is not healthy. He has outgrown everything, probably even his shoes. The GPS guys are probably adjusting his ankle bracelet weekly.

        I expect Judge Nelson will tell O’Mara and West AGAIN that the State is not going to conduct discovery for them. With FDLE’s answer providing that O’Mara violated rules of service, the Feign Team might be admonished for that too.

    • Mike says:

      Thank you xena.

  23. @ YAHTC, Blushed, Xena, Cieleo & the Prof.

    I now have to leave this blog as some consider my military service on the equal of fogen…..Pissed?…Damn right I am.

    JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON……….that is the last I have to say.

    Ya’ll take care

    Guten Nacht


    • blushedbrown says:


      I totally understand Pat.
      Have a swig and a smoke for me. 🙂

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Pat, I cannot believe the horrible remarks made to you by roderick.

      I am glad you stood up to him.

      I also was shocked by sdunn’s remark to you about the children’s home.

      Both of them seemed as if they wanted to disrupt this page. I don’t get it.

      Here is some music for your evening:

      • YAHTC….Got a fire in the firepit….some whiskey…my woman and my dog…..and looking out over the mountains…with not a single artificial light to be seen……Thank you for your support…..and may the gods / god / karma bless you….now back to the fire 🙂

        • blushedbrown says:


          Don’t forget a swig for me, a puff for me, a pat on the dog, I leave the woman in your very safe and capable hands.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Blessings to you and your family, Pat.

        You are a good soul.

    • Xena says:

      Pat, don’t let one person discourage you. You have a family here who appreciates you and your service to our country.

      Trayvon needs us. He needs our positive energy and thoughts. Tomorrow is his day to shine. The light has been too bright in honor of his birthday. One cloud cannot hide the sunlight, but if you remove the sun, what then?

    • Malisha says:

      MMPat, I have ignored the argument; I didn’t want to get into it but I do want to hear from you more. I feel deprived now and I wish I had tried to jump in earlier to affect the outcome. I don’t think there’s any comparison between you and Fogen. Consider coming back to blog here, OK? [There isn’t a proper little funny face for me to put here…]

      Did you see the “Breakfast with deer in Texas” video?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I didn’t see any comparison of Fogen to anyone who has served in the military.either.

        I am uncomfortable with the glorification of the military in our culture. I think war should be a final option and I think it is tragic that the human condition often makes it a first option. I’m a life-long pacifist. I feel that war is fairly useless and only rarely justified. That’s not to say that I don’t respect the individuals who choose to serve. We all have different bents and different karma and choose to experience different things in this illusory place we call reality.

        I’ve supported veterans groups through monetary contributions and through volunteering to judge in my local VA writing contests in order to encourage vets to write about their experiences. The poetry, nonfiction, and fiction I’ve read from these contests is extraordinary and moving.

        I think people with convictions deserve respect, whether they choose to serve or not to serve in the military.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        This is the link to Roderick’s offensive comment above:


    • groans says:

      Well, honestly, I found MMP to be the MOST offensive of anyone tonight, with his FILTHY mouth and yelling at others.

      Apparently, some of you have reasons to tippy-toe around MMP’s tendency to attack others, but I do not. I don’t coddle belligerence.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I’m not comfortable with the name calling. It isn’t necessary. It’s always better to talk things out.

      • karenleah says:

        What i find offensive is judging people with disdain based on outer appearance & not deigning it worth the bother to find out whats on their INSIDE– whether its their uniform, their hoodie, their weight, their skin color….

    • Pat….The Professor discovered that someone may have hacked sdunn5’s account. I believe that we should be alert to “strange postings” as the trial draws near. The fogenites want to discredit this site and all who post here. They are trying to cause discord among us in the hopes of breaking us all apart…..with no one left to expose the truth in the Trayvon tragedy. Most of us left other sites because of the “nonsense” caused by the fogen-clan. Now they are trying to spread that “nonsense” here, most likey in the belief that we’ll move on again.

      • Hmmmm….my brain is pooped….Last sentence should read…
        …..most likely in the mis-guided belief that we’ll move on again.
        P.S. I ain’t goin’ nowhere……. I like all you folks…. 🙂

  24. PiranhaMom says:

    @Roderick2012 and PYorck

    Rod, I’ve admired your analysis and input in the past, but when you told PYorck to “Mind your own business,” and “No one was talking to you,” please tell me —

    To whom were you talking?

    There are a thousand readers of the Professor’s blog – not just those of us, like you, like PYorck, and like I, who write in.

    When you refer to the men and women in our all-volunteer army and say “these people must enjoy killing on some level,” any one of us has a right to object to this.

    You were talking to all of us.

    You were talking to me.

    You have obviously never been in the field of war, never been imprisoned in a concentration or POW camp, never tried to survive as a civilian in an occupied nation, starving and trying to keep your children alive … who cried tears of joy, who cheered as U.S. Military – and those of our Allies – brought freedom and safety to their lives, and delivered them from their oppressors.

    Let me give you one example of a US Army volunteer. His names was John Hardy Riddall. He was born in 1907. He was a Pacifist, a devout Episcopalian, and would not kill. He had a college degree and an executive career.

    He was, above all, an American.

    Early in 1942, well beyond draft age, he enlisted in the U.S. Army to serve as a field medic. He was required to wear an Army pistol. He did so because he could not do his job unless he complied with regulations. For three years – his entire service – the pistol issued to him for self-protection was never fired.

    The job he chose – and enlisted for – was to go out, UNDER FIRE, attend to and bring back U.S. wounded soldiers – and wounded enemy as well, if they were downed on the field of battle. He was wounded himself, but returned to service. He survived the Battle of Huertgen Forest and the Battle of the Bulge. He never knew how many hundreds of lives he saved. “I’m not an accountant,” he said.

    He was simply an American, who volunteered for Army service, at the highest level of risk.

    Roderick, I’d like you to consider John Hardy Riddall’s motivation for a moment or two.

    “Enjoyed killing” ???

    And yes, Rod, I’m talking to you.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      There’s quite a big difference between WWII and recent wars.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Also, not everyone engaged in war is a medic or honorable. I think we need to find more ways to wage peace.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Two sides –

        Roderick2012, in referencing the all-volunteer Army, stated “these people must enjoy killing on some level.”

        I emphasize the word “MUST” above, because it is a disrespectful statement(and mathematically implausible).

        When there was an objection to that statement, Roderick was quick to slap it down.

        This is not Roderick2012’s own personal website. It is, in fact, a website that fights against prejudicial thinking. All can comment, respectfully.

        Yes, John Riddall served his country in World War II. I believe his character would serve his fellow man and woman in combat in the same manner in later wars. At 35 he was considered “the old guy” among soldiers half his age. With a college degree, he could have had a commission. He chose not to be an officer. He was a field medic.

        Some men and women have those convictions. As you well stated, Two sides, those with convictions are to be respected.

        Calling anyone the equivalent of George Zimmerman is also not respectful. Not on this blog.

      • PiranhaMom……Many people join the military, not because they want to go out and kill people, but simply…because they need a job. I was just reading that the inventor of the Etch-a-Sketch passed away. The Ohio Art company, that makes EaS, said that this was their all time biggest seller. It was made in the US until 2000….and then…..because of “increased production costs” the manufacturing of this product was sent to China. We had one of the last Levi-Strauss plants here in San Antonio…it was closed and the jobs were lost to overseas production. Textile mill jobs (Peppermill) also lost to overseas production. What’s left? Working in food service or joining the military is all there is left for so many young people. Even folks with college degrees are having a difficult time finding jobs that pay a living wage.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Grey –

          Yes, it is a career decision, often for the opportunity for educatonal benefits later. The bulk of our military comes from small towns with few opportunities. Military service is chosen for many reasons.

          They services make every effort to weed out psychopaths during the ecruitment process because they are so very dangerous to other
          members of the combat team.

          For whatever reason a man or woman is willing to put his or her life on the line AND subject themselves to the Univeral Code of Military Justice for those years, they have my thanks.

          My thanks to you, too, Grey.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Excellent posts, PiranhaMom and greywintersky!

  25. colin black says:

    Above I meant to say J Nelsons lack of perusial of M S M ect She said she doesnt watch tv news an knew next to nothing about this case.
    When she first saw it on her docket.

    PS re my above post .

    So when M O M Says My Guys Inocent someone should drop a million dollars into his acount so he can get a decent defence.

    If his guy is innocent it shouldnt be hard to mount an easy winnable defence at well under a million dollars

    KC Anthony was guilty as sin an she got a decent winning defence at a fraction of the three hundred grand foggen has already blown through on Bodu Gaurds an secret rendwveous in dissabled toilets to switch into disguise as a wheelchair bound man with a groucho marx moschtache an cigar.

    An luxury houes five bedrooms on the beach
    An clearing of all them credit card debs they thoughht would never get sick of sending them demand payment letters.

    TwoHundred Grand an Change Baes got from disney a b c For photos of Caylee
    An seventy grand from Tod Black for her defence depos everyything an she walked.
    Foggens spent more than that already an hasnt spent a dime on defence


    An M O M has tha audacity for someone to drop another million so he can get a decent defence cause he is innocent/

    I think its code for someone should give foggen a milllion
    Because he is guilty as sin an I havent a snowballs chace in hell of winning this case.

    Just give him a million so he can get the hell out of dodge an out my hair an out of the American Legal systems books

    Lets face it foggen on the run with a million dollars on or about his person
    He would be dead never to be found within a week m o o………….

    • groans says:

      And if he isn’t found dead first, he’ll be posting another begging site – cuz he could blow through a million bucks faster than:


      Fill in the blank, cuz I can’t think of one.)

  26. Trained Observer says:

    Well, at least you all in th e U.K. now have Richard III’s bones to pick over. … That should hold us until we start in on the jury.

    • seallison says:

      What a discovery that could actually be confirmed as those of Richard III. I stayed up late because I knew there was a news conference coming from Leicester and I was glad I did. Exciting, for sure.

  27. colin black says:

    They dont think foggens is innocent at at all

    Everybody on the Planet even the dogs on the street across here in the UK know foggens as guilty as sin.

    Even tribes deep in the Amason Basin whom have had no contact with the outside world.
    There firsts words after translation would be .


    All foggens family know he is guilty as does shellie an the idiot himself.

    Anylaw student with eeven a years experience would realise foggen is guilty beyond an above resonable doubt.
    Lay people with sqhilch knowlage of legal system know he is guilty

    So so a as heck M O M an D West know he is guilty.
    The Judge Im sure despite her perusial of M S M at this point relalises he is guilty
    An sure will by the time the trial concludes.

    So given thease facts that everyone involved in this fiasco of a kid caught with his hand so far in the cookie jar
    Is his only defence is the cookie jar jumprd out from behind the bread bin an started attacking his wrist ab beating it so hard it ended up spraining his wrist
    He had no option but to shoot it one time.

    We all no this trial is going to be desided not by evidence but jurourd
    Jourours are human.

    What do we no about humans…..

    Unpredictable. biased ..Racist..stubborn..corroupt..stupid..unreasonable.some have agendas.gullable.manipulitive,greedy.

    • Malisha says:

      Colin Black, you done it again!

      Even tribes deep in the Amazon Basin who have had no contact with the outside world. Their firsts words after translation would be: FOGEN’S GUILTY.

      When I’m being carted away because of prolonged hysterics and suspicion of advanced hebephrenia, it’s ALL YOUR FAULT!

    • seallison says:

      LOL – too funny!

  28. Trained Observer says:

    What reciprocal would the defense provide?
    # He’s not the real shooter? Nope
    # Not his gun? Nope
    # Gun misfired? Not according to Fogen’s own words.
    # If defense brings up Trayvon’s school records, then Fogen’s dismal academic records might be exposed.
    # If defense brings in character witnesses that opens the door for hearing about his cousinly molestation proclivities.
    # If defense brings up any of Fogen’s various stories on the stalking route and confrontation, the State has his alternative versions to introduce. Best of all, the State has blockbuster GPS data.
    # At best, all the defense can say is that the Retreat had had some break-ins, so Fogen thought it would be a good idea to clamp down on ba-lack people. Not smart, even in the unlikely event of an all white jury.

    • Trained Observer says:

      # Trayvon’s “criminal” record? Nada. But any defense insinuation of such leads to Fogen’s very real string of low-life distinctions including a sketchy employment record, crappy financial status, restraining orders against him, his arrests and at least one dumbed-down plea.

  29. You are not the same people who who where discussing here before!

    • Trained Observer says:


    • groans says:

      I think I know what you mean – and, if so, I agree. It happens occasionally when the Professor isn’t “babysitting.”

      But don’t give up. It’s not that often, and the Professor tends to take care of things – it’s HIS blog, afterall.

      • groans…..Squabbling like members of a family…..someone steps on another’s toes and an argument commences. It happens even in families that love and respect each other. It will blow over…. 🙂

      • groans says:

        “So let us begin anew – remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof.”

        ~ John Fitzgerald Kennedy ~

  30. What exactly does O’Mara mean by the following: “The defense team believes in George’s innocence, and they feel George deserves more than a minimal defense, particularly in light of the efforts being made by the prosecution team”? At what point is O’Mara held accountable for his subtle (and not so subtle) innuendos against others surrounding this case??!!


    • Jun says:

      The guy is a sleazebag, what do you expect?

      Just like Fogenhats, he is blaming his problems that he made, onto others…

      Its well written within law that you get provided a defense if you can not afford one

      They had over $300,000 and what have they accomplished with that?

      Nothing at all except slander and propaganda, and no evidence whatsoever.

      $300,000 is more than enough for a defense in court, for a lawyer, experts, etc…

      instead… they greedily spent the money on everything else and then blame others for what they themselves caused?

      FOH with that mess, Omara…

      Even with all their nonsense delay tactics, there is still more than enough time to do depositions and go over all evidence and go to trial by June 2013

      Omara plays to brainwashed racists who are easily manipulated

      And has Omara even provided any reciprocal?

      I feel the state has provided at least 7000 pages and pieces of evidence and Omara has provided nothing but whining and lies

      What Omara needs to do is shape up and get to work… his own greed was his downfall

    • Xena says:


      “The defense team believes in George’s innocence, and they feel George deserves more than a minimal defense, particularly in light of the efforts being made by the prosecution team”?

      IMO, it’s lawyer-speak for,
      “We thought we had an easy case where the defendant’s words were the only thing that mattered. We had no idea that the prosecution has forensic and physical evidence that convicts our client along with a witness that refutes his story. We had no idea that the clubhouse videos meant anything, and we certainly didn’t know that the voice of our client was captured during a 911 call and he was not the one screaming. How was I suppose to know about gravity and blood rivulets? Had we known we would need expert witnesses, I would not have used $40,000 out of the donations to expand my office.”

      • Jun says:

        I dont get how people fall for that nonsense

        1) Omara is the one providing the defense, so if it is minimal, he is the one providing it, so who would be responsible?

        2) The state’s job is to dispute and rebut anything the defense has to present and also to prove that he killed a kid with a depraved mind. It is not the job of the state to do Omara’s job.

        3) The state will provide a defense for the defendant if he cant afford it

        So really, what valid points has he pointed out where money is needed or it has anything to do with the excuses he has provided?

        Oh he’s broke? Boo bloodclot hoo… there’s people without homes in my city, so cry me a river… I think many homeless people would have been happy with $300,000 and would not have spent it in such silly ways and then blame others on spending they did themselves

      • groans says:

        Xena and Jun – Did you guys read the article that Diary linked to? It’s a new one, I believe, called “Why Not Indigency for The Killer”? Guaranteed to elicit lots of “groans” out of you. 🙄


        • Xena says:

          @groans. From the killer’s attorney’s website;

          “We never would have considered a defense fund if we had not seen the overwhelming support there is for George.”

          ROFLMAO! And that is why they have to beg, beg, threaten to file for the court to find GZ indigent, and then offer to sell his autograph and beg some more —- because they have seen overwhelming support for GZ??!???!!!!!!!! HAHAHA!!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            300K and all they’ve got to show for it is a lawsuit from their security company, a picture of Trayvon 4 years older than one seen in the news. A claim that DD is over 18 and not a good witness because she didn’t see anything, and a “undisputed likely broken nose”.

            At the rate the defense is going they’re going to need the entire US Treasury just to explain GZ’s versions of what happened.

            But, well… Let’s face it, if 300k doesn’t buy one 8.5 by 11 sheet of single spaced exculpatory dialogue, it’s probably time to throw in the towel.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            At the rate the defense is going they’re going to need the entire US Treasury just to explain GZ’s versions of what happened.

            Well, O’Mara did say that someone needed to dump a million dollars into the trust fund for GZ to get a “good defense.”

            A very good defense? A million and a half.

            An excellent defense? Five million. That price includes appeals after GZ is found guilty.

        • blushedbrown says:


          They act like Floridans are going to say “OH NO, we are not going to pick up the tab, lets donate now! ” Makes no sense. The state picks up the tab for anyone who does not have a paid lawyer. That is a given. You know its in your Miranda rights. I don’t know who writes these bulletins over there, but they have the sense of a billy goat.

      • Jun says:

        I see by the article posted, Groan, Omara is still trying his snake oil sales tactics


        Lets see he received over 300K for defending George and he’s done bloodclot nothing

        and for a declared indigence, the state would get more paid for and done for the defense for a price less than what he received… they’d prolly get more done at like 50,000 then Omara did with 300,000 plus LOL

        LOL I got to get Omara’s sales list because I have a bridge to sell them all

        What experts would Omara get? There’s no forensic evidence the victim even attacked the defendant in even self defense, or at all… How’s this expert gonna explain the dna readings from the gun?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          MOM can’t quite either, because that 40k for his office renovation wasn’t a gift! It was pay! So he’s received pay now he has to stay!
          The Captain must go down with his ship!

    • groans says:

      Diary – Thank you for the change of topic! It’s been pretty gross here tonight.

      (I think I feel an a$$wipe headed my way already….)

  31. Sorry YAHTC……..I enlisted in the Army at 17 to get out of the children’s home I was in.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      I, as you know, am so sorry for the things you have had to go through in life.

      I am so happy for you that you now get to live surrounded by love and nature.

    • Mike says:

      Hay pat what was your MOS.

    • kindheart101 says:

      Wow MMP. Rough start at such a young age.

      • Kind

        Through the trails I’ve traveled……..life is good…….One can only enjoy the taste of the wine, if they’ve had a big gulp of vinegar beforehand.

      • kindheart101 says:


        Very beautifully said, and understood. I regret nothing in my past, as it has made me stronger to face my trials, and more dedicated to enjoy every moment I have left.

        And Pat? Being from a military family, having a son that is a 20+ year Navy pilot, and a husband that retired with 31 years active duty, with 3 tours in Vietnam.

        I humbly Thank You for your service.

        • blushedbrown says:


          WELCOME HOME!

          • kindheart101 says:

            Amen Blushed.

            This is very close to my heart. I know the pledge, and oath each and every person is required to take. When I say, Thank you for your service, this is what I mean. For those who were drafted, it was a time of great indecision for many of them. Though they may not have agreed with the war, they were bound, by our government to serve, and take an oath, to protect our country. So many life’s were lost. And when it came time for them to return home, many turned their backs on those who had suffered so much, and were scarred so deeply. And even now, in this day of a volunteer military, the travesties and after affects of Afghanistan, Kuwait, Iraq, etc., are going untreated, while PTSD and suicide are taking the life’s of those that chose to enlist, to protect and defend, while once again, they are not being taken care of when they return home.

            So yes Blushed. Welcome home to everyone of them. They deserve that. They deserve our respect and gratitude.

    • sdunn5 says:

      children’s home really what dat?

      • Xena says:

        @sdunn5. I see that you started your own blog. Thanks for giving this blog and others a “thank you.” I hope you find the answers you seek so you can write more.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        sdunn, your children’s home remark was insensitive.

      • aussie says:

        think about it for a minute. It is a “home” for children. Orphanage. Though kids who are not orphans but don’t get placed n private foster care often end up there, too.

        Google is your friend. Type in expressions you don’t understand, and it will give you sites that can explain it. In fact often the 2 lines per site visible is enough, and saves you asking about something everyone else already knows.

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Aussie –

          Nice advice, Aussie, although the fake SDunn won’t have access to this blog anymore.

          Better advice: tell a troll to Google “prick” or better yet, just look in the mirror and repeat that word.

  32. You all have thoughtful comments says:

  33. colin black says:

    People have pulled on a Uniform an fought for flag country an not only there own kindred citixens
    But travelled to forigin shores to fight an liberate others being over run an ocuppied by forces of a forign power.

    Millions have died in two world wars an countless other conflicts over the centures.
    Thousands of Americans died in a Civil War to Allow Trayvon Martin to live as a free person in the U S A .

    Any Man or Woman whom is willing to lay down there life for an ideal so that a stranger to them does not have to be oppressed deserves nothing but the upmost praise admiration an while your at it should kiss the frikkin ground they walk on .
    Because they dont do it for fame or money
    They do it because its the right thing to do,

    • You are aware the Al Quieda had a bounty on Kyle’s head….often referred to as the.

      “the devil of Fallujia”

      “he’s not playing fair when we come out to shoot RPG’s at Americans….he pops us first”

      Carlos Hathcock had the same bounty in ‘nam….with 106 confirmed kills.

    • roderick2012 says:

      Wow you sound brainwashed.

      I guess you believed that Iraq had WMDs too.


      • No I don’t believe that Iraq had WMD’s……Nor do I believe that Vietnam was to stop the spread of communism….What I do believe is that these soldiers did what their country asked of them…….if you have a problem with that….talk to the government that sent them there.

        I took an oath to defend this country from threats both foreign & domestic. And BTW….the draft was still in place in ’71 when I enlisted.

        You my friend are no more than a worthless POS as fogen

        • roderick2012 says:

          LOL. Oh no I guess I need to get out my tissues because I feel a tear coming…NOT!!

          This country throws soldiers into meatgrinders call it patriotism.

          Vets came back from Vietnam with serious mental health issues and no one had the time or the money to treat them.

          Just this afternoon one of your fellow Vietnam vets was killed after he kidnapped a child from a bus and barricading himself in an underground bunker for almost week after he took out an innocent bus driver.

          Now we have ex-military returning from Afghanistan and Iraq committing suicides at alarming rates all because America has this sick obsession of romanticizing war.

          • Ya know rod….I have no more time or interest to answer your comments……bear in mind the more US servicemen have died by suicide in the past year than in combat…..what does that have to say for YOUR government……You are a TOTAL ASSWIPE…….only if mommy lets you have toilet paper in the basement

          • roderick2012 says:

            My government?

            LOL. You’re the one who’s desperately defending it not me.

            Our government is the military-industrial complex and Americans have allowed themselves to be cowed by fear and now have another generation of broken soldiers coming back home who don’t have any support and some are a threat to themselves and to society at large.

            As for comparing some soldiers to George Zimmerman.

            It’s about collective punishment.

            The nineteen men who caused 911 were responsible for the tragedy, but as a country we invoked collective punishment because they were brown people so we could justify invading their country as an act of revenge just like George used collective punishment the night he shot and killed Trayvon to justify his ‘suspicions’.

            It’s sad in this country that it’s ok to profile minorities but no one else.

            White male military veterans weren’t profiled after Tim Mcveigh blew up the federal building in OKC in 1995, but Muslim Americans were immediately profiled after 9/11.

            Young white males aren’t being profiled after the CT school shooting or the shooting in New Mexico.

            As for Obama just because he belongs to the Democratic Party makes him no less a captive of global corporate interest.

      • Dennis says:

        You are correct about Iraq not having WMDs. Valerie Plame was outed as a CIA agent in the newspaper on orders of Dick Cheney. Her team was tracking the weapons the Mossad was going to plant in Iraq.

      • towerflower says:

        Roderick: Timothy (and one other) and the shooters in CT and CO were all alone and not part of a bigger organization, to compare them to the 19 in 911 is flawed. They knew they were trained and funded by Al Qaeda being led by bin laden. They did not act alone or on a whim or as a result of a mental disorder.

        Timothy McVeigh was no longer in the service so why would they profile all service members? But the military did find issues with him and he was disciplined for racist shirts and posters and was found to be mentally unfit for the Special Forces, which is what he aspired for. His issues started way before he joined the military.

        We had the justification to go into Afghanistan and gave them the opportunity to give up bin Laden, they refused so we went in to go after the man who led the organization that had declared war on the US. I guess you have forgotten all the other attacks he was responsible for, maybe you don’t care because past attacks have been focused on military or embassies. 911 went after civilians and brought their war to our shores. The rules put into effect after those days effect each of us and not just those of middle eastern background. My elderly mother went through a search in the airport and she is white and Christian. She was flagged solely on the basis that I escorted her to the plane.

        Mental issues with battle have gone further back before the Vietnam war. In WWII they called it battle fatigue. What should be condemn is the government’s response to the handling of our returning vets to ensure that they get the help that they need. It took them too many years to even acknowledge that a person’s experience might cause them PTSD.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      My father fought in WWII with the army division that liberated Dachau.

      I am grateful to the law enforcement people, Coast Guard, National Guard, etc. that help and protect us.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I think we need to strengthen dialogue between individuals, groups, and countries to lay foundations for peace.

        Walk Together, Talk together,

        Oh Ye People of the Earth,

        Then, and Only Then,

        Thou Shall Have Peace.
        — Sanskrit Proverb

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Yep, Pat.

        As I walk through
        This wicked world
        Searchin’ for light in the darkness of insanity.

        I ask myself
        Is all hope lost?
        Is there only pain and hatred, and misery?

        And each time I feel like this inside,
        There’s one thing I wanna know:
        What’s so funny ’bout peace love & understanding? Ohhhh
        What’s so funny ’bout peace love & understanding?

        • Come up here….clean the cabin…and you can spend all the time you want feeding the Deer….YAHTC……..U knew me before here….and I thank you for your understanding 🙂

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      • Malisha says:

        YAHTC, wow, one of my very best friends (now deceased, RIP), a family therapist from Portland, Oregon, was in that division that liberated Dachau. It essentially stayed with him all his life; I called him “another casualty of Dachau,” because he drank himself to death (harmlessly, he worked full time, raised a family, and drank every night after work was over, couldn’t sleep sober). Came back from the war and went to college on the G.I. bill. Brilliant guy. Just drank himself to death.

  34. Xena says:


    They are an abomination among us.

    Michael Eric Dyson talked above Breitbart’s head.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Michael Eric Dyson was right on target! Man, is he articulate…….he sure said what needed to be said.

    • looneydoone says:

      Featured speaker at the 2012 GOPTP conference ? White nationalist/separatist leader, Peter Brimelow. Other such “notables” offered seminars and workshops to the attendee’s

      One proud corporate sponsor of this event was AOL (Huff-poop)

      • Xena says:


        One proud corporate sponsor of this event was AOL (Huff-poop)

        Are you serious?!?!?! No wonder I had no interest in going over there. So they put up a section titled “Black Voices” but let White Supremacist voices vandalize the place.

        Way back when AOL and Compuserve joined, there was mass chaos in Compuserve forums. It was the first time that we experienced the use of “handles.” I was section leader in several of the religion forums and forum owners began applying the rules using a double-standard because of AOL demands. Not only did I resign my position, but I also stopped using Compuserve as my ISP.

      • Puck says:


        AOL ruined HP just as they ruined Usenet in the 90s, hence “Eternal September.”

        • Xena says:


          AOL ruined HP just as they ruined Usenet in the 90s, hence “Eternal September.”

          Oh my! Is that what happened to Usenet too? I remember in the late 90’s of being able to have a private group chat on ICQ. When I checked the other day, they no longer have the feature where you can setup your own group chat.

          I remember when AOL came into existence. It was actually an appeal to the computer retail market and they included and mailed out their program on CD. Before AOL, ISPs gave so many minutes of usage per month, and when subscribers went over, they paid dearly for it. Most people with Compuserve were professional in some regard.

          AOL came around with $19.95 unlimited service. With computers selling retail, everyone and their mother bought one and uploaded AOL — and now the internet is not what it used to be.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Nope, AOL was terrible. They mailed out disks and lots of people wound up using their service, because they didn’t want to bother learning how to shop around. Even today you can still go to “thelist.com” and browse a list of service providers and their fees/rates/etc.,

            Thousands of us were getting flat rate, 12 and 14.95/mo. unlimited dial up, but we had to contend with complaints on usenet, from people who refused to give up their costly per minute AOL accounts.
            Until, finally the dam broke and so many people were getting 19.95 unlimited accounts AOL had no choice but to follow suit.

            For example I’m on 14.95/mo dsl now. While most people are paying close to 30/mo for service. Usenet collapse after… Well, Usenet used to be free, it came with your ISP because it was a selling point for them. So every ISP had to have a news farm to compete. But the truth about the GOP et als was getting out over usenet, so the right wing started this campaign claiming that usenet was packed with porn filth and should be shut down. Since usenet farms were costing ISP’s money to provide for free, they were more than happy to jettison the service. Now, few people even know about usenet.

            I have a usenet service provider Giganews so I have it, you’d be surprised at the stuff you can get there. There’s a group of people that do nothing but fonts. Ever needed a special font? That’s the place to go to get it, or even have someone create one for you.
            Then there’s the ASCII ART group.
            | | |U| | |

            There’s a lot of very useful stuff and very helpful people over there.

      • Puck says:


        The problem in both cases (Usenet and HP) was and is with the AOL *users* who invaded both spaces.


        • Xena says:


          The problem in both cases (Usenet and HP) was and is with the AOL *users* who invaded both spaces.

          Thanks for the link. So, the same happened with Compuserve and no doubt, ICQ; i.e., AOL users.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yep, that’s just about when usenet began to go crazy, but it started out with aol’ers complaining about band width every other post. Then it grew into a huge number of trolls in the political newsgroups.

      • groans says:

        @Xena – I was a CompuServe user. I tried AOL once, but it was kind of crass even way back then, IMO. I didn’t pay any attention to them for a long time, but then they took over HuffPo and turned that crass. I used to like HuffPo when it was actually Huff.

        But I do give AOL credit for getting everyone interested in the internet and email.

        • Xena says:


          But I do give AOL credit for getting everyone interested in the internet and email.

          I wish it were a company of ethnics. At first, I liked the feeling of exclusiveness with Compuserve. We’re talking circa 1992-1997. Because Compurserve’s regulars in forums used their real names, when the AOHell subscribers came on with handles, it was rather shocking. What they posted was beyond anything that ever happened in the forums. Most of the private forum owners closed shop rather than deal with AOHell’s demands for advertising and with advertising, allowing all sorts of filth.

      • looneydoone says:

        Not only “black voices”, the comments in “Latino” and “Gay voices” has been given over to what you term verbal vandalism. Hell, truth is, AOL has allowed/encouraged/supported this…we were warned this would happen when Ms Huffington(a long time conservative from Orange county, CA who shifts position when it’s expedient) announced the sale to AOL.

        I have it on good authority AOL maintains a stable of agent provocateurs for the purpose of keeping hot topic threads active and thus increasing ad revenues.

        AOL=Abomination On Line
        They claim a 25% increase in membership since the buyout, but I’m convinced it’s due to flood of socks. Fully 3/4 of my “fans” no longer comment on the site, and many more bailed out on notice of the sale.

        Anyone know of a good alternative for world news, politics,business, etc all on one site ? At present, I’m having to pick it up from several different sources, foreign and domestic.

        • Xena says:

          @looneydoone. Thanks for the comment. So I suppose us old timers back in the 90’s who called it AOHell were right. LOL!! I don’t know of an outline news source that covers everything, but if I come across one, I’ll get back to you.

    • Mike says:

      MED school him good

    • blushedbrown says:

      I love Dyson, and his wife is just as good.

  35. Malisha says:

    THere’s nothing wrong with gun ownership per se, and certainly nothing wrong with gun ownership as part of someone’s job in the military! What’s wrong is gun ownership and use by individuals who, among other things, (a) would be rejected by the military as unsafe; and/or (b) have any history of misconduct that would lead a rational person to suspect that they exercise poor judgment; and/or (c) have some interpersonal difficulties that might result in their wanting to shoot somebody (because that is something NOBODY should want to do) and/or (d) exercise a belief that God (or anybody else) wants them to shoot people they personally mistrust or personally dislike.

    • A soldiers prayer

      The soldier stood and faced his God Which must always come to pass…

      He hoped his shoes were shining Just as brightly as his brass.

      “Step forward now, you soldier, How shall I deal with you?

      Have you always turned the other cheek? To My Church have you been true?”

      The soldier squared his shoulders and Said,”No, Lord, I guess I ain’t…

      Because those of us who carry guns Can’t always be a saint.

      I’ve had to work most Sundays, And at times my talk was tough,

      And sometimes I’ve been violent, Because the streets are awfully tough.

      But, I never took a penny That wasn’t mine to keep…

      Though I worked a lot of overtime When the bills got just too steep,

      And I never passed a cry for help, Though at times I shook with fear,

      And sometimes, God forgive me, I’ve wept unmanly tears.

      I know I don’t deserve a place Among the people here…

      They never wanted me around Except to calm their fears.

      If you’ve a place for me here, Lord, It needn’t be so grand,

      I never expected or had too much, But if you don’t, I’ll understand.”

      There was a silence all around the throne Where the saints had often trod…

      As the soldier waited quietly, For the judgment of his God,

      “Step forward now you soldier,

      Walk peacefully on Heaven’s streets,

      You’ve done your time in Hell.”

    • towerflower says:

      Malisha, I do hold a concealed license in the State of Florida and will try to answer your points. I also hold the credentials to teach the safety portion for someone to obtain a license.

      a- being rejected for military service alone is not a reason for rejection. People are rejected for many possible reasons, do we know what GZ’s are? It might have been something as simple as the medication he was taking for ADHD.

      b. They do go into a person’s history, as an example a person who has been convicted of a felony cannot hold a license. GZ was never convicted of a felony and his arrests were downgraded to a single misdemeanor. So his past arrest did not prevent him from obtaining a license. With domestic violence or an injunction a period of 3 yrs must pass before a license is issued. So that time frame had passed also in GZ’s case.

      c. They go into mental issues but then one must have spent time in a mental facility or deemed to have a mental disorder by a doctor or a judge. Once again I don’t believe that having ADHD is considered to qualifier as a mental disorder.

      Because of the felony arrests of both people, fogen and his wife, their licenses have been both suspended until the outcome of their cases. If convicted of the felonies facing them neither of them will be able to ever hold a license again unless they received a pardon. I do believe that maybe the State should look more into the medication of a person. If a person takes a prescription medicine which can have an effect on one’s state of mind then the license should be suspended until such time they are no longer under the influence of the drug. That opens another problem due to HIPA laws.

      Don’t get me wrong, I’m no supporter of fogen and his actions. I believe his carrying of a firearm at all times, except for work, was careless. This means he carried when he “mentored” these children. I wonder if their parents knew of this and approved. He also carried a gun with no safety.

      • Trained Observer says:

        towerflower: Excellent point on possible carrying while mentoring — a disgusting prospect, although (given nature of molestation accusations against him by a family member) just thinking of Fogen as a mentor gives me the willies.

      • kimmi says:

        towerflower says:
        “Because of the felony arrests of both people, fogen and his wife, their licenses have been both suspended until the outcome of their cases.”

        Has anyone seen any documentation regarding Fogen’s license being suspended?
        IIRC, it has been said that they cannot suspend a license that was never valid in the first place…

        Fogen received a refund for the second(?) CCW class, (after his permit was issued), and although there is a very dark photocopy in the first (?) doc dump, it is not really know if Fogen’s CCW was in fact valid, as far as I know.

        Can someone help me with this information? Thanks.

      • sdunn5 says:

        Florida see you said it!! Good Tower Flower but I knew that

      • Malisha says:

        Oh I agree with all these things, which are simply reasonable. A person can be rejected from the military for having an autoimmune disorder. What I am saying in general is something that could be legislated with much more specificity and should be, and this is closer to what I meant:

        If you had a history of domestic violence,
        If you have a history of belligerence and picking fights;
        If you have no rational reason for carrying, you should not be carrying. You don’t need a loaded gun to go to Target. you’re not ALLOWED to carry a loaded gun to be a NW watchperson. There SHOULD be some form of screening done before anybody gets a license to carry a loaded gun. And others who are around such a person SHOULD have a way to know that he carries so they can choose to absent themselves and remove themselves from his company. I would not like to be around someone who constantly has a loaded gun on his hip.

        A friend of mine is a forensic psychiatrist. I am trying to interest him in working on a screening test to check for problems among purchasers of guns and ammunition; I think it should be a little harder to get a gun than a license to drive a car. After all, both are dangerous but MOST people ONLY use their cars for transportation and never even hit a deer.

      • kimmi says:

        I wonder what the parents of those he “mentored” thought when they heard his cousin talk about when he molested her??

        If I were their parents I would have been horrified!

      • towerflower says:

        Malisha, Right now a business has the option of saying where or not a concealed weapon is allowed in the business. Which is most likely why he was not allowed to carry to work. They are required to post a sign at the entrance to say if they are not allowed. Also, per state law, they are not allowed in certain places, like bars, government building, schools, etc. Does a person need to carry at all times? No and I personally feel only law enforcement people current or retired should do that since they have the training.

        I do understand what you are saying about domestic violence but there is also a slippery slope on that. Too many times, without proof, one side or both, will claim domestic violence against the other party to get a step ahead in a hearing or revenge. As an example like fogen did to his ex after she filed an order against him. So the law is written to mention convictions or orders and giving a 3 yr waiting period on the latter.

      • towerflower says:

        kimmi: There was only a news story about fogen’s wife having hers suspended. This is the section that covers it:

        790.06 License to carry concealed weapon or firearm–

        (3)…….The department shall, upon notification by a law enforcement agency, a court, or the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and subsequent written verification, suspend a license or the processing of an application for a license if the licensee or applicant is arrested or formally charged with a crime that would disqualify such person from having a license under this section, until final disposition of the case.

        Since they were both charged with a felony, this is the disqualifier for having them suspended until the outcome of the case. So neither one can legally carry a concealed firearm until this is over. With this being such a high profile case I can’t imagine that the State wasn’t aware of it and failed to take action.

        Everything I have seen, fogen did have a valid license for concealed carry. He had the ID on him when the incident occurred and it was (the ID) returned to him that night according to Osterman in his book. The police have also interviewed the Instructor for his safety course–he doesn’t remember him.

        Getting a concealed in Florida requires many things. First you have to show proof of completion of a NRA firearm or safety course. This course is not as involved as you might think. The course might be for pistol, shotgun, rifle, hunting safety, or range safety officer. If you are going for a concealed you might think you are required to have a pistol course but that isn’t the case. The courses do go over many things, parts of a firearm, safety rules, types of firearms within the category of class, safety rules, types of ammo, safety rules, firearm storage, safety rules, oh and did I mention SAFETY RULES. There is a written test at the end of the course and one must show that can handle a firearm safely. They don’t have to show proficiency just that they can safely handle a firearm. As an instructor I can withhold the certificate of completion if I feel that a person can’t safely handle a firearm or treats it or the course with an attitude.

        These classes are sometimes advertised as a CCW class, but it is only one step of the process. A person still undergoes a background check by a sheriff’s department and you need to be fingerprinted, along with Q & A’s.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I think it should be A LOT harder to get a gun than to get a driver’s license.

      • seallison says:

        I would not want to be a mental health professional if the mental health of an individual falls on their shoulders when determining a persons right to own a gun. What liability will fall upon them should one of their patients kill.

        I liken it to the gun nuts thinking that teachers carrying weapons will make classrooms safer.

        I can see some really sick people choosing to forego mental health assessments to avoid losing their right to own a gun.

      • Malisha says:

        I believe any teacher who had Fogen in class for anything, CCW or anything else, would remember him, because he would be doing those irritating “teacher me me me me” things like insisting that he knew something others didn’t, etc. If the teacher does not remember him, he didn’t attend class.

      • towerflower says:

        Malisha: The class he took was in 2009. With some of these classes they do them quite frequently and I’m not really surprised that they didn’t remember one student from 3 yrs prior. Not unless something real unusual happened.

  36. Thank you Prof for acknowledging Chris Kyle…..I was on newsvine yesterday…and the hate just spewed…….I made one comment as follows…

    “Might I remind you that he was trained by the US military for this job and was supplied with the weapons and ammo by the government….He WAS NOT a rouge that went out looking for people to shoot…….Without a doubt he was ordered by his command on where to go and who to look for….and take out if possible.

    Gun control?….I just read a story the other day that Obama owns firearms, and is an avid skeet shooter…..Will the president have to surrender his weapons…..he really doesn’t need them for self defense as he has the whole secret service to protect him.

    Or will it be that only the privileged few citizens will be allowed to own firearms?

    Case in point…an ANTI GUN senator shoots an intruder in his home….the link follows


    So even though he’s anti gun….it’s OK for him to have one to defend his home….again…the privileged few.

    Let us not forget the “hunting accident” with George W & Cheney.

    Is Kyle any different than a B-52 pilot that unloads 20 tons of bombs on suspected enemy?

    Buenos Dias


    • KS says:

      I’m sorry but, the Obama and Senator part of your argument is absurd “gun grabber” nonsense. Any of the proposed new regulations that deal DIRECTLY with guns (most of them don’t) will NOT be retroactive. Nobody will have to surrender their existing weapons and, as a reminder, we are ONLY talking about semi-auomatic style wepons like AR-15s and magazine clip sizes. At worst, they couldn’t buy new ones and/or large magazine clips.

      The argument about the “privileged few” is bizzare. There are what? 300 million guns…and counting…in the US right now. It would be physically impossible to gun grab them all and, more importantly, NRA fear mongering propaganda aside, in reality there has been no govermental effort whatsover made to attempt to grab them.

      The picture of Obama skeet shooting was released to illustrate to the gunnutters that he’s not “anti-gun” (whatever that means) and enjoys sport/skeet shooting like a lot of normal gun owners do although the strange implications that he would have a skeet gun for self defense or have to turn in it if his proposals pass is amusing.

      Your Senator story is an example of sucessful NRA propagandizing. In this case, it’s the “anti-gun” meme. There is nothing mutually exclusive about owing a gun for self defense or otherwise and supporting sensible gun control legislation.

      • KS

        I have no idea why you want to knock my comment……As many have read my posts before…….I am for gun control…….assault rifles with high capacity magazines are not needed by hunters……Just to make you aware you can buy 50 round drum magazines for Glock pistols. Do I think they’re needed? HELL NO.

        It’s all a very slow process, to disarm the public at large.

        In this house there is one centerfire pistol….one rimfire rifle….and the rest are black powder front stuffers…as in my avatar a .50 cal Kentucky rifle I’m building…2 years in the making.

        So is Chris Kyle an American Hero?……or some murder happy gun nut?

      • PS KS

        I think I’m gonna go out back and shoot one of my 1851 Colt .36 Cal. Navy revolvers…I have property in Colorado and it is legal for me to shoot on my property.

      • KS says:


        I specifically referenced the “gun control” part of your comment made elsewhere that related to the Obama and Senator examples. Unless I misread it, in which case apologies, you did make that comment elsewhere as you said, no? If that’s the case, it certainly doesn’t seem to be a pro gun control argument.

        In terms of Chris Kyle, I agree with with Prof. Quite a tragedy for all involved.

    • elcymoo says:

      Mountainmanpat, I haven’t read anywhere that President Obama owns guns; he didn’t say that he was an ‘avid skeet shooter’, ether. He simply said, in response to a question, that ‘they shoot skeet ‘all the time’ at Camp David. I’m pretty sure that the guns belong to the government/Camp David. A number of presidents have enjoyed the skeet shooting there, with their guests, since Ike had the range installed. Check out the link below – and everyone should click on the link to a video in the article that refers to Jackie Kennedy shooting skeet – not because she seemed to be good at it, but because there’s a touching exchange between JFK and little John-John that I’d never seen before.

      And it seems pretty obvious to me that any senator who owns a gun is NOT an ‘anti-gun senator’.


      13 Photos of Presidents Packing Heat
      From Teddy Roosevelt to Barack Obama, the buckshot stops here.
      —By Dave Gilson

      | Fri Jan. 25, 2013 3:11 AM PST


    • DruDo says:

      mountainmanpat, I’m not in any way trying to be argumentative, but am curious. I wasn’t aware that any possible gun control regulations included the requirement that everyone must surrender all their guns. I don’t own guns and am not interested in doing so, but do believe our citizens have the right to have firearms for protecting their home and families, but have yet to see anything which suggested or implied that all guns must be surrendered. Am I mistaken?

  37. roderick2012 says:

    I don’t see how Chris Kyle was a hero?

    He was a ‘good’ guy who supposedly killed ‘bad’ guys only because he was an American and they were not.

    From the looks of Kyle he was an alcoholic and probably didn’t rest well at night because I doubt when someone takes as many lives as he did regardless the reason the conscience won’t allow one to be at peace.

    • towerflower says:

      Chris Kyle was awarded 2 Navy and Marine Corps Achievement ribbons that is awarded for outstanding achievement or meritorious service.

      Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal– is presented for sustained acts of heroism or meritorious service.

      He received 5 Bronze Stars–which may be awarded for acts of heroism, acts of merit, or meritorious service in a combat zone.

      He received 2 Silver Stars– which is the third highest military decoration for valor .

      He was an exception shot and was a Navy Seal Sniper. Some of his acknowledged “bad guys” were people about to take action against our troops……like a grenade or rocket launcher, it could be said that he saved American lives by his actions.

      While he might have suffered from his own demons, he also did what he could to help other vets. I do question his taking out a combat PTSD vet out to a range with live firing. If he had no medical training to deal with people suffering from this condition and flashbacks, it was an accident waiting to happen.

      But based on his military record he was a hero and highly decorated and will go down in American Military History as one of the best snipers. You might not agree with the need for snipers, which also has been a part of military combat since the 1700’s, but the fact remains that they are part of military history. Do you remember the Somalia hijackers holding Captain Richard Phillips? It was Navy Seals who rescued him by their shooting.

      • Thank you Tower Flower….

        War is hell, and only those who have experienced it know how true that saying is.

        And for those that want to belittle Kyle?

        Every major police force in the US has trained snipers as members of their SWAT teams.

        Chris Kyle……May you rest in peace my brother

      • towerflower says:

        mountinmanpat: Yes, RIP Chris and as a veteran of the US Navy, I also call him brother.

      • roderick2012 says:

        LOL. It’s kinda sad that people believe every war is honorable.

        People join the military for lots not so noble reasons but if you think killing strangers in their own country is cool then I feel sorry for you.

        • Rod…..They did what their country ( government) asked them to do….If you’re opposed to killing strangers in a foreign land….then I suggest you take that up with the government…

          How shall we punish all of Obama’s drone strike’s against other countries & their nationals?

          • roderick2012 says:


            America has had an all volunteer army since Vietnam so these people must enjoy killing on some level which makes them no better than George Zimmerman.

          • So because I enlisted I’m no better than george zimmerman?……FUCK YOU

            And who may I ask is fighting this countries global war on terrorism……a bunch of zimmermans.

            I now have NO respect for you at all

      • Jun says:

        There’s good and bad everywhere, but on the majority, our soldiers do very much good…

        They risk their lives for freedom

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Perhaps some of the people he shot were heroes in their culture. Life is a two -edged sword.

      • seallison says:

        mountainmanpat – I am a Veteran of the Viet Nam war serving with the Royal Canadian Navy – Petty Officer 2nd Class and I am with you, brother.

        If anyone had a choice, there would be no wars. Unfortunately, there will be wars. That is reality.

        For ANYONE to criticize a persons intention when they enlist, obviously has no conception of those who are actually making the sacrifice as well as their families.

        No one wants to kill (well, there are exceptions) anyone. But, you are trained to do what it takes to get the job done. I could go on, but this is not the topic of conversation. You are no gun nut and I do not even own a gun – don’t want it.

        Anyone who has served has a profound respect for weapons in their possession. The gun nuts are motivated by fear. Some are just itching to use their training just like a kid given a new video game and not being allowed to use it – yep, the 20 to 40 year olds.

      • towerflower says:

        Roderick: People join the service for many reasons and to assume that they join just to kill another is so wrong on so many levels.

        I joined the US Navy in 1976, I joined because I knew I was capable of doing more with my life and the military was a means to achieve that. To get the training needed to carry on in a civilian career. College was out of the question due to no money so this was my fast start. Joining the military to me was not about going out and getting the chance to kill someone.

        Every member of the service receives firearm training. But I have never heard of someone joining the military for just the ability to kill someone. The military isn’t about that. It is about protecting the United States of America both on our soil and our interests abroad and to help those when help is needed.

        To quote a movie, National Treasure:

        Gates talking about the Declaration of Independence: Of all the ideas that became the United States, there’s a line here that’s at the heart of all the others. “But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and provide new Guards for their future security.”

        Riley: Beautiful….huh…what does that mean?

        Gates: It means that if something is wrong, those that have the ability to action have the responsibility to take action.

        So remember that while you have the ability to freely speak your mind as you choose, remember that there are many a service member who gave up their lives protecting that right to free speech. You should just thank MMP and the others on this board for their service, after all it was they who helped protect the freedoms that you enjoy today.

    • PYorck says:

      America has had an all volunteer army since Vietnam so these people must enjoy killing on some level which makes them no better than George Zimmerman.

      Sorry, I am a leftist European conscientious objector and everything, but look at what you just said. That was really out of line.

      • roderick2012 says:

        Mind your own business.

        No one was talking to you.

      • Jun says:

        Alot of evil happened in WW2

        such as internment camps, torture chambers for American, Philipino, and Chinese people and soldiers

        Many people who were not part of the imperial Japanese army and were Japanese Americans were internment camped (although the conditions were vastly better than anything the Nazis and the Imperial Japan provided)

        if we did not unite together, we would be under Nazi and Imperial Japanese rule right now

        These people sacrifice their lives to help others (not all, as there are some bad apples, but you cant blame the whole army for the bad apples)

        I dont feel you should compare what a vast majority of soldiers do to Fogenhats

        I feel you are disrespecting people’s family and relatives and ancestors who died and fought so that you could be here today posting on the internet

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I am aghast at the way you have talked about our servicemen, roderick!

      • groans says:

        I agree, out of line exhanges going on.

        People being rude, aggressive, and offensive to each other is not what this blog is about.

        But it seems to happen sometimes when the Professor is “away.” SMH.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        There are people who go to war as bodhisattvas. There are people who go to war with hatred. To blindly uphold all soldiers as heroes is questionable. All are human beings with human frailties. There are many ironies and paradoxes in life.

      • seallison says:

        PYorck – conscientious objector is a choice that you are able to make only because others have sacrificed their lives to allow you that freedom. It is good that you have been able to take advantage of that. You do not have a dog in this fight.

  38. colin black says:

    colin black says:

    February 4, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    Osterman said he would die for him….

    Trayvon did not although he would lay his life on the line to rescue his Dad from dieing of smoke inhaleation.

    Trayvon died because an unstable incompetent reject was allowed to own a lethal weapon an carry it everywhere he went,

    Excepts workplace.
    foggen pulled the trigger but others done the enableing ego strokeing an primeing.
    That allowed this fool to stroll around as the sherif of the twin lakes retreat gated comunity.

    Should have had a sign over the entrance of that gated comunity.

    Aint no chance to retreat if foggen you have the missfoutune to meet.

    At the dreaded twin lakes retreat.

    If he spys you walking in the street a tragic end you will meet if you have the missfortune to enter the retreat

    Of white people he will not speak your alright an will have a treat upon entering the streets of the retreat.

    Black people best not try because foggen he will spy an unfourtunately that means your gonna die..


  39. KA says:


    I have a question I have wondered for a while.

    Will Osterman’s book come into play during this trial? He was the person that GZ first stayed with and was obviously heavily involved. Unless he was there, he was a person that knew all of his information from a third party. I assume everyone will assume (and he probably says) GZ is that person. His book statements conflict with GZ statements. I assume he would have to say he made it up, or he heard it from GZ.

    I had thought that things told to a 3rd party, directly my the defendant, was admissible in court and not considered heresy?

  40. KA says:

    I will comment quickly, I am so glad you said he used poor judgement on taking this vet and current reservist to the shooting range. I am sure their hearts were in the right place, but their abilities were not. PTSD is serious and nothing to “get over”.

    Maybe the suffering vet did not need to be around a reminder of war before any kind of treatment, maybe he never needed to be there again at all. It was the first thought I had yesterday when I read the article shortly after being reported.

    There is a certain mentality that says everyone should shoot, everyone should own the ability to shoot, everyone should be allowed to shoot, everyone should hold a gun and shoot for their own well being.

    I think that is hogwash. I have never, nor do I have any interest in shooting a gun. I do not own one. I do not want one. I am a perfectly sane person with all the facilities to be the person I need to be for this world.

    Ok, I will finish the article now. I was just surprised that someone actually agreed with me on this one.

    • Malisha says:

      I have a friend who is a defense lawyer for the Courts Martial; he used to be a JAG. He had a case that is almost exactly like this, years back. Defending a guy who went off and shot his buddies. The guy had been diagnosed with PTSD three times and then was judged “OK” to return to yet another tour in Iraq and he was sitting in the canteen with his friends and just blew like Mt. Vesuvius; nobody saw it coming, nobody had any idea what was going on, and get this: HE didn’t know why he did it. It was a very serious defense case; unfortunately I don’t know how it came out. I should contact that guy (the lawyer) and ask him. But it was a horrible horrible case and, like this one, incomprehensible.

      The point the Mother Jones editor made was very important: Arming more and more and more and more people doesn’t prevent fatal shootings. You arm the MOST people in wartime, and the most people get shot.

    • I agree as well. While Mr. Kyle and his friend had their hearts in the right place, this was a grave mistake, akin to taking an alcoholic who is trying to stop, into a liquor store. This was a terrible idea. Tragic.

  41. Malisha says:

    The psycho hate-fest over the weekend is symptomatic of the gunnuttic fringe. No matter WHO is killed, the fault for it always lies at the foot of the big liberal in the sky who has tried to disarm decent Americans and who has no respect for freedom, justice or the American way. You can’t talk sense to that kind of chaotic, disorganized, logic-free, licentious mind; we have to do our best not to let the noise from that corner distract us when we are listening to what the world tells us.

    Damn, what a bunch of gabbling nonsensical (HOSTILE) geese!

  42. Xena says:

    R.I.P. Chris Kyle. Clara, I am sorry you were subjected to such filth for expressing your opinion.

    I don’t have Twitter. Now seeing what goes on with it, I don’t regret not having it. Free speech is not hate-speech.

    • Malisha says:

      The attack on Clara for her twitters is just free-floating rage and hatred misdirected, as it always is. These folks are so perpetually engulfed by infantile rage that they can’t even HEAR things normally; everything they hear is a threat or an insult; everything they see is a danger or a crime. OMG what losers and failures and what insufferable fools. A man lost his mind, from being exposed to war, and he killed, and the answer to that is a rage attack that sprays vitriol in all directions? GHU.

  43. Malisha says:

    Osterman is like a son to Billy. And he’s like a bro to Fogen. So now we know Fogen’s last name: Leeson!

    • sdunn5 says:

      Malisha he did not learn his lesson though did he? Or is this tricky z and o subliminal messaging…so I will buy tequila in a grocery store playing Mambo #5?

  44. Cercando Luce says:

    Osterman has something at stake in Trayvon’s murder, although I don’t know what. Osterman made a point of keeping both Z’s very close to him from the first moments of this crime, accompanying Fogen from police station, throughout “reenactment,” police station for lie test, hosted them in his home several weeks, was filmed picking him up from first bond-out… then he is named a State’s witness, communicates with Fogen by TV(!)– “I’d die for him” is not directed at us, it’s directed at Fogen– so why does Osterman have so much at stake? Why’s he so involved? What part did he play in this murder? Is the U.S. Air Marshal an accessory, accomplice or even ringleader?

    • looneydoone says:

      Circando Luce,
      I’m in agreement. I’m very suspicious of Osterman’s level of involvement

      • kimmi says:

        Your suspicion is probably not too unfounded…
        Seems Osterman is just as filthy as Fogen…
        Snipped from Orlando Sentinel:

        When the deputies (Osterman & Christie), learned Diaz’s checks to the car dealer were worthless, they didn’t report the vehicle as being stolen, investigators said. Instead, the two men asked the dealership for a FINDER’S FEE for the return of the vehicle. The fee was for a friend of theirs who also was working as a bodyguard.

        They also didn’t tell their supervisor about the situation with Diaz. And when the sheriff’s investigation began, Christie and Osterman DENIED ever working as his bodyguards.

        Sounds like Osterman was very well deserving to be be fired!
        After Diaz wrote a bad check for a vehicle, Osterman didn’t report it, but asked the dealership for a finder’s fee for a friend?
        He was in Law Enforcement? What scum!

    • Trained Observer says:

      Is Osterman still employed as a U.S. Air Marsha. (I saw someone’s passing reference to the fact that he’d been forced out by both the Seminole Sheriff’s Office AND as from his air marshal gig, but don’t know if that’s accurate).

      • blushedbrown says:

        @Trained Observer

        News articles pertaining to Osterman firing from Police force…


        http ://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/13/2893981/air-marshal-took-zimmerman-in.html

      • towerflower says:

        An Air Marshall’s secret identity is important. When he was “outed” with his identity and job then his ability to do his job came into question. If he is still working as an Air Marshall then it most likely is in a desk capacity and not as a “concealed armed law enforcement” flier.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Thanks for links, blushedbrown. I remember reading the Herald story way back when … Still wonder if Osterman (smarter than Fogen, but not by all that much) has managed to hold on to his air marshal gig.

      • DruDo says:

        I honestly don’t understand how Osterman even got a job as a Federal Air Marshal in the first place. His record at Seminole Co. Sheriff’s Dept. was certainly less than stellar. But, then, there’s always been a certain kind of network in that area and it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if someone in “authority” may have been less than truthful in any assessment given to the Fed. Air Marshal’s service.

        • Xena says:

          @DruDo. Osterman’s job as an Air Marshall has NOT been confirmed. In the FBI statement, they provide that he was employed as a (redacted), but the first letter of the word is not blacken out and is an “i.” We discussed that here, and that it could be “inspector.” The word is not that long.

      • sdunn5 says:

        yes it is a tough gig for mark osterman if Billy Lee would not recognize him in a grocery check out line hey marks words not mine.

    • Looolooo says:

      Cercando Luce
      Just what I’ve been thinking. Fame & fortune are two reasons, but what is the third? Hmm.

    • abbyj says:

      @CercandoLuce, You raise an interesting question, and your observations send up a red flag. We don’t know the extent of their history together, but perhaps it involves a previous episode that Z & Osterman participated in together. There’s a story there. I feel it, too.

  45. Two sides to a story says:

    I’m deeply saddened by the state of the nation. We used to joke about going to Canada, but lately what’s going on with lack of gun control and right-wing vitriol is enough to make me seriously consider leaving.

    I don’t see this situation getting any better as the world becomes a more difficult place to live in with 8 billion people and at home, culture that’s overly supportive of individual rights over collective rights and too many people spouting off about things they know nothing about. In the meantime, I do my best to influence things for the better.

    And yes, Prof, why would anyone take someone suffering from war-triggered PTSD to a shooting range? I have a friend who suffered for 30+ years after Vietnam before he got help and was triggered into anxiety by very small things, like a cupboard door slamming or a cat suddenly popping out from under a piece of furniture. Common sense tells you a shooting range isn’t the place to work on desensitization.

  46. looneydoone says:

    Thank you for addressing my question.
    Accomplices vs accessories to a crime
    My friend was killed during a botched kidnap for ransom scheme They hadn’t planned on murdering him, but when he resisted the attempt to snatch him, he was stabbed do death. The perps fled the scene, but were rounded up. Of the 8 persons awaiting trial, 5 of them have been charged as accessories and/or accomplices and conspiracy.The (3) ones who were present, and tried to abduct him are also charged with aggravated murder and conspiracy. This happened in Carlsbad, CA, and it’s a Federal case.

    • blushedbrown says:


      My sincerest condolences to you on the lost of your friend, and his family as well.

      • looneydoone says:

        Thanks. It’s fortunate my friend lived in SoCal, and not in some cracker red state. He ran the family tomato farms, and was *Mexican*. His family has owned their farmlands in that area 100+ years.

      • looneydoone, I too am sorry for your loss, and the tragic loss to both his family and the community. Here was someone who did things for the good of his community…killed by worthless trash that are nothing but parasites in the community.

    • Malisha says:

      SO SORRY, Looneydoone; I wish you long life.

      • looneydoone says:

        Thanks. He was a great guy, beloved in the community. Involved in youth sports, Boys & Girls Club, FFA and Agriculture programs. His murder really impacted the local community, it was a tremendous loss.
        His killers ? 8 skinhead losers with priors.

      • Rachael says:

        May he rest in peace.

      • leander22 says:

        I want to join Malisha and Rachel since I always feel a little helpless with the use of formulas in this context. I seem to have a basic antipathy against what feels like rituals.

        Really horrible story.. but so sorry for you, and may he rest in peace feels good.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      I’m sorry that a good man was torn from his family, friends and community. May he RIP.

    • abbyj says:

      @Looneydoone, So very sorry to hear about the death of your friend. What a tragedy. Very sorry.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      I am so sorry to hear about your friend. I hope justice is served and all 8 of them pay for their crime in this tragedy.

  47. TommysMom says:

    Being a lady of a certain age,I don’t know how to tweet,therefore have no way to see those tweets. That may be a good thing. I don’t even own a “smart phone”,probably because I’m afraid it might be “smarter” than I am.

    • bettykath says:

      LOL, I’m with you. I rec’d an email that gave a warning about droid phones. I passed it on to family members but had to ask my nephew if I had one. I didn’t and still don’t know what a “droid” is. If I got a “smart phone” I’d have to have a youngster (someone between 6 and 40) to explain it to me.

      • TommysMom says:

        ITA I think a druid is that little green,square shaped guy that sometimes wears a tux. I’m not fond of green unless it’s a plant,and I like causual dress,I’m also on the curvy side,so we wouldn’t get along well at all.

      • Malisha says:

        BettyKath, your one-line about the smartphone is hilarious. My son gave me a droid and I put it in the refrigerator; I’ll cook it later.

      • Whew……I thought I was alone in being “the-latest-hi-tech-electronics” challenged….. Let me put it this way….I only repurchase a cellphone when the one I have totally dies (I’m on my 3rd one in 12 years) and it has to be a simple one too. The only problem is that when I went to get an adaptor to charge the phone in my car (I was traveling 3200 miles round trip…with 8 cats for company…something I do once or twice a year) Sprint told me that they no longer made them for my phone because it was too old. So, I went to Radio Shack to get a generic adaptor…and was told the same thing. Seems that my phone had outlived even the generic ones. So I bought this very large multi-use adaptor that plugs into my lighter. I then plug my phone charger into that…… At least the multi use adaptor won’t become obsolete in two years, like my phone. I don’t even want to think about smart phones or GPS….btw…I like “old fashioned” maps!

      • Malisha……. 😆 … 😆 … 😆

      • sdunn5 says:

        bettykath sure you know what droids are…remember Star Wars…”these are not your droids”?

  48. FactsFirst says:


    • groans says:

      I did that earlier today. You have to put a space first. Not sure you need the quotes, tho.

      I don’t write this because I’m an expert … I am SO not. But I’m TRYING to learn! I haven’t dared to try the fancy quotes with the grey side bars yet, tho. 🙂

    • Malisha says:

      You actually put a colon : before the symbols and then a colon : after and a space BEFORE and AFTER the whole thing, colons and all. Let me try — :8-): Ooops! 😳

      • blushedbrown says:


        Does anyone know if the hearing will be online for viewing? Another poster on another blog wants to know?

        Thanks 🙂

      • leander22 says:

        Blushed, I checked that, not sure if I have the correct link now.
        But this seems the livestream.

        I would be pleased to know you are watching with me. 😉

        Starts at 9:00 am if got it correctly.

        In any case it seems News 13 Orlanda is livestreaming. If someone has the know how to put it on you tube later that would be of course fantastic.

        • blushedbrown says:


          I will be watching along with you and everyone else her at the blog.

          I don’t watch online, I like the big screen 🙂

          I believe Trent Sawyer aka State of the Internet records all hearings and then post them on youtube. You may check his channel later in the day, I’m sure he will post it.

  49. Yes, indeed. Robert Zimmerman, Jr’s liaison into the Breitbart world, Todd Kincannon was posting some of the most foul tweets about Trayvon this weekend. You can find those tweets, retweeted by @GOPHateTweets. Of course, Jr is always silent about the hate exhibited by his biggest supporters until he feels pressure. It appears Kincannon has distanced himself from Jr since his Randy Hahn appearance. It is interesting that Kincannon and Klan were pounding Randy for using the “N-word” but he turns around and posts this bitter nastiness this weekend. Geez, between Randy, Ben Shapiro and Kincannon, Jr doth protests too much when he claims he isn’t racist!

    • I saw @GOPHateTweets for the first time, over the weekend. I followed, but am almost too disgusted to look.

      I have to say, I have never seen or heard hate like this, even in a prison. Well, especially in a prison, where crap like this is not tolerated by staff or by inmates.

      But what’s even almost more offensive, if that is possible, is the haters’ spectacular failure to use proper grammar.

      • Hi Crane…it is difficult to read and those tweets are so bad, I didn’t even RT them. Typically, I take the stance that awareness is paramount but I couldn’t even move my fingers to RT those…they are horrible!

        • I think the guy (@GOPHateTweets) is doing great work. I wouldn’t be able to do it.

          That said, I don’t RT much of it either. Looks like a tin foil hat with a foul mouth tweets most of this rubbish from an underground bunker. I think they love the attention, and that hate keeps them alive, so I try my best not to RT.

          What did the sadist do to the masochist?


      • abbyj says:

        @Crane-Station, Checked @GOPHateTweets for the first time, also. Never seen anything like it, and I did see some hard-core racism in the south. We’re talking really hard-core hatred that I witnessed, but this @GHT is filled with much venom and rage that it’s in a class by itself.

        When you read even a portion of these tweets, you don’t doubt for a second the truth of the Secret Service claim: that there have been more death threats against Obama than there have against all past presidents taken together.

        • Right, made me realize that there is a whole new level to hate. I have also seen racism, in both directions, since moving to Kentucky. But nothing like this.

          I mean, why not debate and disagree like people are supposed to? What kind of an example do these people set for their kids, with the foul-mouthed racism and death threats?

          I have never seen the likes. That said, I admire @GOPHateTweets. I don’t know how that person can stomach that trash all day.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      If Jr.wasn’t racist before taking up the banner for his bro, he’s certainly responsible for keeping them stirred up about the case now. Goes beyond strange bedfellows, IMHO – Jr. now has a bad case of STD!

      • Well, it is only a matter of time, I believe before the media stops ignoring Jr’s associations from Randy Hahn and the “N deserves to be kilt” to know Kincannon – these are the ppl who are giving Jr a a platform.

    • Rachael says:

      What did I miss? I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

    • Xena says:

      When Junior aligned himself with Hahn, he made a fatal mistake. Hahn’s apology to Junior means nothing. It is Junior who must correct Hahn, publicly, and sincerely. If he disagrees with Hahn’s statement “That little nigger deserved to be killed,” then Junior must say that to Hahn.

      Of course the Zimmermans align themselves with the treeslum because it’s the only blog, to my knowledge, that gives a forum in support of GZ. It doesn’t help O’Mara either, who presents treeslum conspiracy theories in his motions and doxing information of witnesses before the court that is false. None of their theories prove that GZ killed Trayvon in self-defense. Rather, they convey the same as Hahn’s statement — a statement that Junior has not issued a press release correcting Hahn — a statement that infers that GZ committed a racial hate crime.

      Maybe that is what Junior wants for his brother — a federal charge that carries the death penalty.

      • looneydoone says:

        Well, it’s been said they were estranged for years. Major case of sibling resentment ? jr working on getting his brother a federal charge to “even up” the score ?
        From what we’ve seen to date, every member of the family is more than a little whacko

        • Xena says:


          jr working on getting his brother a federal charge to “even up” the score ?

          I thought it — you said it. 🙂 Thank you.

      • Rachael says:

        I’ve said this before, but I think O’Mara has a responsibility to say something too. Instead he is an instigator and just sits back and watches the fallout. He’s slime.

        • Xena says:


          I’ve said this before, but I think O’Mara has a responsibility to say something too. Instead he is an instigator and just sits back and watches the fallout. He’s slime.

          O’Mara is like a circus barker acting for the money. Now that it’s gone, he might realize that as he was playing, he was being played.

      • looneydoone says:

        My Grandmother always admonished me to “be more circumspect, and diplomatic”….appears I failed that lesson 😉

        I think jr hates his family, and they hate one another

        • Xena says:


          I think jr hates his family, and they hate one another

          Possible. Very possible. There may be fear of emotional blackmail too. An 8 yr old child does not know enough about the right and wrong of sexual molestation to tell a 6 yr old child that if anyone asks what they are doing, just say “laying down.” If there are skeletons in the closet, Junior would not want GZ revealing them in retaliation for his silence.

  50. blushedbrown says:


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