Why Did John (W6) Lie to the Police?

Sunday, February 3, 2013

As I’ve said before, I find it very difficult to attribute to a coincidence John’s (W6) first statement to police falsely describing an MMA-style thrashing that exactly matches the defendant’s false statement.

The statistical probability that those two false statements would coincidentally match must be vanishingly small. Therefore, I believe BDLR and the FDLE concluded early on that John repeated what the defendant told him.

I imagine that they wondered if John actually saw and/or heard what happened and knew the defendant was lying, or if he merely repeated what the defendant told him in an innocent but misguided effort to help him.

Let there be no mistake, however. Telling the police that he saw something he did not see is a lie, even if he believed that the detailed description he provided were true.

His conduct is more reprehensible, of course, if he knew the defendant lied about what happened and he repeated that lie to the police.

Let us assume for a moment that he repeated the lie knowing that it was a lie. Why might he have done that?

I offer six possible reasons.

First, the defendant may have been his friend and he lied to protect him.

Second, he may have feared him and agreed to tell the police whatever the defendant told him to say in order to protect himself and his wife from retaliation.

Third, the defendant may have threatened to harm him or his wife if John did not tell the police what the defendant instructed him to say.

Fourth, if he were a home owner, he would have had a financial interest in the outcome of the investigation. Since a conviction might result in HOA liability for wrongful death, he may have lied to protect his financial self-interest.

Fifth, he may have known that the defendant was going to follow, confront and interrogate Trayvon about neighborhood burglaries before the incident happened.

Sixth, and the most ominous reason, he may have known that the defendant was going to follow, confront, interrogate and kill Trayvon before the incident happened.

I have long suspected that the defendant had enlisted the support and cooperation of some neighborhood residents to serve as his eyes and ears. I also suspect that those eyes and ears had reported Trayvon’s presence in the neighborhood to the defendant. In other words, I believe he was specifically hunting for Trayvon when he left his house that night and I believe John was one of his informants.

LLMPapa’s video last night about Trayvon’s hoodie is consistent with this theory. He pointed out that the defendant accurately described the hoodie in the NEN call as dark gray and the defendant as a teenager; yet, the defendant would not have known either fact since it was dark and raining. The wet hoodie appeared to be black or dark blue and Trayvon had it up concealing most of his head and face.

Therefore, either the defendant had seen Trayvon in daylight wearing the hoodie or someone provided him with a description before he went hunting.

I do not doubt that BDLR and the FDLE have known this for a long time and they probably knew it when they interviewed John (W6) and he retracted his statement.

John (W6) needs to come clean and tell the whole truth.

Unfortunately, however, his credibility is no better than the defendant’s. Why would anyone believe anything he says unless it is independently corroborated?

The plot would thicken if independent corroboration in the form of the defendant’s cell phone records show a call from John moments before the defendant grabbed Shellie’s gun and went hunting for Trayvon followed by a call from the defendant to John moments after the shooting.

542 Responses to Why Did John (W6) Lie to the Police?

  1. xy11xy says:

    I believe W6 is a liar. W17 & 20 are liars. W13 is a liar.

  2. xy11xy says:

    Listen… do you remember what W13(I think) said about when he first walked up and asked if he should call 911? (W13 is the man with the wife and kid who lives in the corner house on the opposite side from where TM was shot).

    He said when he first walked up, it sounded like George was on the phone.

    I’ve been scratching my head about this for weeks. I wondered if the responding officer made that call to George as resquested on the NEN….or if George called someone, or 911. Who could he have been talking to?

    Well, if it was a call from John…that is explosive.

    • I believe he called John (W6) and the phone records will show that call.

      • racerrodig says:

        I have on very good authority that we will be stunned at the calls before and after the gunshot and who else called / was called. I’m beginning to believe W6 may be one. I have guessed Osterman, Taaffe, Smith and Ostermans wife are on that list. I have yet to get a denial from my connections….only that little “..I know a secret..” laugh. I never get a denial when I say he was not alone for that matter.

        There is more to this than a shopping trip that was aborted here.

        What credence do you put in the 3 men outside the 7-11 knowing Trayvon line of thinking.

        • Xena says:

          @racerrodig. BDLR shows absolutely no concern about the photos of GZ’s head. I wonder if there is text message from GZ’s phone acknowledging that he was in a fight before the evening of 2/26/12?

          • racerrodig says:

            It’s possible. Bernie is so matter of fact about everything that you know he has his ducks lined up. For every fact we know, there may be 10 we don’t.

        • “What credence do you put in the 3 men outside the 7-11 knowing Trayvon line of thinking.”

          I do not know what to think about that encounter. If it had happened at 3 am, I might be inclined to think they met up there, but at 6:30 pm or thereabouts on a Sunday evening, I’m inclined to think they probably did not know each other and it was a coincidental encounter.

          I suspect Trayvon’s primary reason for going to the 7/11 was to create an excuse to get away from Chad to talk to DD.

          I am inclined to believe that the weather was not a factor because he was bored and his hormones were on fire. Mine certainly were at that age.

          I am willing to consider other possibilities.

          • racerrodig says:

            I agree on the encounter being coincidental especially since it happened that early.

            I agree he took the opportunity to get away but I also stand by my thought he was trying to be the good big brother to be. I have no reason to doubt what his parents have said about him being that way.

            Hormones…..yep, that is “…undisputed…” for boys that age. I played HS football…one of the reasons “Babe Magnet” I played guitar in rock bands “…ya get to meet more chicks…” Got involved in the hot rod thing “…more chicks…”

            What are you talking about, Hormones raging….Naaaaaaaaaaa Not a good looking kid like Trayvon.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            For me, I don’t like when “coincidences” line up in a way that could have significant meaning. TM had no trouble talking to DD all day, even with his father and Ms Green in the house, why should he be bothered by Chad who was engrossed in his video games? So, I scratch privacy as a reason. I also scratch snacks because I’m pretty sure the house had a good bit of snacks around.

            I could go for him wanting to stretch his legs, but the fact that this is his first trip in 6 days, sort of says that this isn’t his idea of a favorite diversion or else he’d have done it a wee bit more often. With a cool dark rainy night in the offing, this trip does not have the look or feel of “casual” for me. While the odds that a trip having any strange characteristics at all, would occur on his last night on earth, says to me there simply has to be more too it than that.

            When we step back we see that GZ needed notification of some sort and some here have even been moved to theorize that Trayvon might have been monitored even before he left home. There’s the oddity of the Burgess and Rainesberg group and it appears that these are exactly the guys who show up at 711 by “coincidence”? I’m more inclined to believe that something more will show up that will make the connection if we keep our eyes open for it.

      • xy11xy says:


        Someone on YouTube told me about your blog. There’s lots of really great info here.

        Thank you.

  3. Dan Q. Smith says:

    I just want to say thank you for asking the questions that need to be asked about “John.” I still don’t know the extent of it but I knew within days after hearing about this case that “John” was trouble.

  4. kimmi says:

    sdunn5 says:
    February 4, 2013 at 3:11 pm
    This is to kimmi…..freedom of information in my opinion is Federal. Perpetuating facts not in evidence i.e. Bill Lee escorting…huh where did you get that information. I think you owe it to this blog to answer that question. I know you wont !!

    Excuse Me? You’re wrong and you’re welcome.

    George Zimmerman Neighbors Complained About Aggressive Tactics Before Trayvon Martin Killing


    “At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was ESCORTED OUT because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics” in his neighborhood watch captain role.”

  5. blushedbrown says:

    testing testing testin

  6. MichelleO says:

    It’s been a very long year for the Martin/Fulton family. I hope they are getting the counseling and comfort that they deserve.

    • racerrodig says:

      I think they’ll be OK. They know there is an entire Team Trayvon behind them and they have handled this with such class I am amazed at them.

  7. Malisha says:

    I’ll bet that the only witnesses the state puts on are those who have something to say that the state NEEDS to put on. People’s iffy stories about well-this-and-maybe-that are not necessary to the prosecution. They need to prove a few elements of the crime of Murder-2 and other than that, avoid confusion. If the defense tries to put on all these witnesses, they will only succeed in showing the weakness of their case when, on cross-examination, BDLR says, “So you did not see the conflict begin?” and they say, “No I didn’t” every time. And then they’re useless. Only the witnesses who actually DID see something significant are going to be on the stand, that’s my guess.

  8. Twelve more hours…….

  9. SpecialladyT says:

    Professor, how does the Prosecution go about posing questions to witnesses when they are suspecting them of lying? We all know that an attorney shouldn’t/doesn’t ask a questions of a witness if he/she doesn’t know the answer.

  10. colin black says:

    Osterman said he would die for him….

    Trayvon did not although he would lay his life on the line to rescue his Dad from dieing of smoke inhaleation.

    Trayvon died because an unstable incompetent reject was allowed to own a lethal weapon an carry it everywhere he went,

    Excepts workplace.
    foggen pulled the trigger but others done the enableing ego strokeing an primeing.
    That allowed this fool to stroll around as the sherif of the twin lakes retreat gated comunity.

    Should have had a sign over the entrance of that gated comunity.

    Aint no chance to retreat if foggen you have the missfoutune to meet.

    At the dreaded twin lakes retreat.

    If he spys you walking in the street a tragic end you will meet if you have the missfortune to enter the retreat

    Of white people he will not speak your alright an will have a treat upon entering the streets of the retreat.

    Black people best not try because foggen he will spy an unfourtunately that means your gonna die..

  11. Cercando Luce says:

    I have been thinking about Osterman. He has something larger at stake in this event, although I don’t know what. He made a point of keeping both Z’s very close to him from the first moments of this crime, accompanying Fogen from police station, throughout “reenactment,” police station for lie test, kept him in his home several weeks, was filmed picking him up from first bond-out– then he is named a State’s witness, communicates with Fogen by TV(!)– “I’d die for him” is not directed at us, it’s directed at Fogen… so why does Osterman have so much at stake? Why’s he so involved? What part did he play in this murder?

    • truthseeker66 says:

      By staying close to George enabled him to write a book…why did Taff inject himself? I read that he did 100 interviews. Not sure if exaggeratied. But keep in mind MO & fogen were friends. MO threw him a grad party…
      IMHO I th i nk piranahmom theory is plausible. I don”t think MO thought fogen would actually kill

      • MichelleO says:

        I’ve met people like Taaffe and Osterman, who were proud of their bigotry and wrongdoing. They always seem to be the stars in someone’s organization. Anyone with a decent moral compass and common sense, can see right through the black hearts of twisted people such as these. Yet they always somehow get into positions of “authority” and have fans willing to vouch for them. Some people are proud of being “good” and some people are proud of being “bad.” Taaffe and Osterman are the latter.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      If I had to guess, I’d say that MO handled the trickiest part of the matter; getting Trayvon to come out of the house after dark, to walk to the store in the rain.

  12. My new post also has a section about the duress defense that is potentially relevant to people like W6 and other residents of RTL

  13. colin black says:

    sdunn5 says:

    February 4, 2013 at 2:38 am

    Racer there was a suspicious guy…really suspicious guy but I digress….Taaffe is not a friend of George’s he did not know him. But when they come with camera’s he wanted in on THAT ACTION so Frank injected himself into it. After seeing the news it is known to some George left a voice mail for FT after he was arrested He said Mr. Taaffe so sorry about his sons death which had been years earlier oops lost another one according to “they” whoever “they” are well that’s an easy one kill another kid of franks quick so i don’t look like a time traveler. At least pee all over the internet with it. Like the long corded phone in jail he has been given way more because it ..never mind another time..I know Trayvon did not cut in between any place entering the complex….it was not in HIS NATURE!!

    F Taffe

    He may only have been a casual aquintance if that.
    As you say he saw the camras an news crews with big name companys N B C an A B C plus the chance to inject himself into this an get on the media.

    So foggen hears of this casual aquintance aparently telling folks what a good ole boy he is an ASS et .
    To the retreat at twin lakes.
    Phones him to comiserate the loss of his son whom died years before hand.

    Couple of weeks after that call F Taffes surviveing Son estranged from his Father dies in a vechicle crash.
    Wonder if foggen done another comiserateing call for that one.
    Or perhaps he is waiting a few years untill he makes that call.

    • Mike says:

      I won’t pay much attention to sdunn5 he/she is from the CTH /Arkansasmimi .

      • SearchingMind says:

        I would not say that. I think Sdunn5 is a zealous soldier of truth and justice. Sometimes her passion force her claws out. She doesn’t like it when we speculate vigorously to possible detriment of Trayvon. That’s the way I read her. I have no evidence to believe otherwise. I think you have to engage her because the misunderstanding between you two is not real.

      • Mike,

        You are mistaken about that and need to get your head on straight.

      • racerrodig says:

        Exactly…did all of the Taaffe interviews just vanish ?? Didn’t Taaffe said Fogen was “…mad as hell..” (how would he know) and “…wasn’t going to take it any longer” Taaffe called Fogen “..the perfect storm…” He knew him all to well it looks.

        Hey Frank “The Racist Tank” Taaffe….thanks for the heads up !!

      • roderick2012 says:

        blushedbrown says:and who can forget the stupid a$$ remark, “You plant corn you get corn…..

        I wonder if that statement was made before or after Taaffe’s son died in that vehicle accident.

        And if he thought about that stupid statement.

        Happy Birthday Trayvon. So sorry you didn’t live to see your 18th birthday because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

        I hope Trayvon haunts every waking moments of those residents who know what happened but won’t tell the truth.

      • cielo62 says:

        I had a suspicion…

        Sent from my iPod

      • 2dogsonly says:

        I agree with searching Mind..Sdunn5 gets impatient with speculation and writes in a clever slightly sarcastic manner.

    • Mike says:

      Wile that may be true about the real sdunn5 that one you see is a fake and posted her doings at the CTH as Arkansasmimi.

        • Xena says:

          It amazes me how people who claim they are not guilty seek to continue their case endlessly so they won’t have to prove they are not guilty.

          • blushedbrown says:


            Imagine the converstions between these two.
            GZ: Hey Shel
            SZ: Hey baby,Ii’m so proud of you.
            GZ: Did you get another continuance?
            SZ: Yes, my love.
            GZ: Good.
            SZ: What about you?
            GZ: Well, I got two judges off.
            SZ: Good, you are going to be famous.
            GZ: Yep.
            SZ How about you did you get continuance?
            GZ O’mara put it in, but he thinks its not going to fly.
            SZ: Why? poopsie
            GZ: I don’t know. Hmm
            SZ: What are you thinking now?
            GZ: I’m thinking we should switch lawyers. I want your lawyer who gets several continuances.
            SZ: OH george you are so smart, lets do that.

            UGHH barf cough @@@@ ewwwwww

            That’s how I hear the conversations.
            (small attempt at humor) 😛

          • Xena says:


          • blushedbrown says:


            LOL 😆 LOL 😆

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Not to worry, all judges, especially those on the appellate courts, know how delay works in favor of the defense. So, they give each other wide discretion to move cases along to trial, despite calls for further delay. Having waived their right to a speedy trial, the defense will win nothing by failing to get additional delays. Had they not waived, they’d be the ones pushing the SP for speed. Meaning they should be ready by now and not need any further delay.

            MOM is going to run into a brick wall, claiming he didn’t have time to get his work done. The SP is going to show that MOM never made any attempt to get needed work done, but was, instead off doing some circus like road show, when they should have been home burning the midnight oil.

          • racerrodig says:

            O’ Mara’s statements today about not having time for expert witnesses was a laugh riot. He stated he …has none…” as I recall. That’s pretty telling.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            He should never have made that statement, because the question that exploded across everyone’s mind is “Why? You had 300 thousand dollars and a very serious murder case, now the money is gone and you have still not contacted a single expert? Why all these demands for discovery then?”

            I mean gee, with a mountain of evidence in front of him, a serious murder charge against his client, all he can think of to do is advise his client to pay out one third of his cash on hand for bail, another 17% for unneeded security to keep up the appearance of danger from blacks, another 17% to pay down debts and buy new appliances and services. While appearing in court and demanding that the SP provide even more evidence, when you haven’t even examined what you already have? How in the world would you know what more evidence is needed? Hardly a wonder that the Judge is treating the defense motions as not serious ploys.

          • racerrodig says:

            You have it dead on……not to mention the 6% for “Game Stop” and 11 % for Pizza’s.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yep and not one red cent for audio analysis.

            |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

          • racerrodig says:

            Hahahahaha……..experts…experts……..we don’t need no stinking experts ………….A hahahahahahahahahahaha !!!!!!

          • esentrick says:

            Too Funny BB! ROFLMBO! I hear that too! down to the poopsie! bwahaaa

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Hey, anything to stay out of jail and avoid accountability. Any criminal defense lawyer will tell you, delays work in favor of those charged because anything can happen. Witnesses can get lost, lose interest, evidence can get lost or damaged or simply disappear or even be stolen by the police if it’s valuable enough. Every delay is a potentially big win for the defense.

      • Mike says:

        Well professor I disagree with that because the language thats used by the imposter seems to be the same as this person at the tree house who seems to like to say things on this thread as a usual poster then runs back to show her buddy’s what she did. And if I’m wrong then all apolagies to you professer I’d never want to come off as being disrespectful of your blog or others that post here.

      • Xena says:


        …that one you see is a fake and posted her doings at the CTH as Arkansasmimi.

        Arkansasmimi plays tag team with AlexandraM, aka AlexandraP, aka Alex with other initials in the handle.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Xena, my post is awaiting moderation.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        • racerrodig says:

          For whatever reason I’m getting a strong argument that Fogen and Taaffe were never friends. What about those interviews in which Taaffe says they are friends and details some events. He said Fogen was the perfect storm and all that.

          • manberk says:

            @racerrodig Fogen definitely made reference to Taaffe being active in NW with him when telling the Burress story to investigators. And Taaffe reports receiving condolence calls from Fogen too, for a son who died years prior. There was also one early interview when Fogen was in hiding during which Taaffe reports having just spoken with him and gave a detailed account of events, as told by the Fog. I dont know why he would talk with Taaffe on the phone if they weren’t at least friendly.

          • racerrodig says:

            They most certainly were friends according to Taaffe. If they were not, Fogen & Co. would have stated along the lines of “…who the hell is that guy…”

            In several of his interviews he states flat out they are friends.

          • manberk says:

            From his 2nd Serino Interview in regards to Taaffes house:
            And the guy that lives there I know, he’s active in the neighborhood watch and he’s Caucasian.

          • racerrodig says:

            In the interview blushedbrown posted here within the last 2 hours, Taaffe stated they are friends. He elaborated on that and stated Fogen was mad as hell and not going to take it anymore, which proved to be true. How would he know this ? Why would Taaffe call him the perfect storm if he was just another resident that he did not know. Why is sdun5 attacking me stating how wrong I am about that.

            Taaffe gave dozens and dozens of interviews in which he states they were friends.

          • manberk says:

            @racerrodig Yeah, and in his FBI interview she just posted he says Fogen called him directly when he saw someone in front of his house, so obviously he had his cell phone #. He also admits he and Fogen had discussed the burglaries before. Funny interview. He blames blacks for every crime in the state of FL but when discussing burglaries with Fogen, “they never discussed race”. LOL. GTFOH!

          • racerrodig says:

            My Federal LE connections verified my guess a long time ago that Taaffe and Fogen had calls between them that night. We know that the phone records will crush him and anyone who says they were not friends has an agenda.

          • blushedbrown says:


            You are correct they were friends. Frank Taaffe had plenty of interviews were he described themselves as friends.

            If you like I will post every interview given. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Someone here stated sdunn5 is a Treehouser and judging by it’s attack on me, it is true.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. Sheila is not a treeslummer, but the sdunn5 that’s been commenting her the last day may not be Sheila. Shelia knows how to use periods at the end of sentences.

          • racerrodig says:

            sdunn5 is who I am talking about. It has used phrases verbatim that one of the HP Zidiots used many times over the past. For anyone that knows where I stand to say to me “..is that you George…has serious issues. Clearly it is following the regular Zidiot routine of disrupt and attack.

            I know the difference between Shelia and dunn by the prose.

          • racerrodig says:

            The rest of us know the facts. sdunn5 seems to have climed out of the Outhouse and is evidently one from the past on HP that I smoked and is out for revenge here. The garbage it’s spewing could only come from that site fromn last year. The jig is up !!

          • blushedbrown says:

            What the hell is going here?

          • racerrodig says:

            I think it’s obvious. sdun stated earlier that Taaffe and Fogen were not friends and never met etc, I then quoted Taaffe and you posted one of the interviews. dun then attacked me and accuses me of being a pro Fogenite. Someone here earlier today stated dunn is an Outhouse regular and watch it. dunn has used the exact same expressions that one of the HP Zidiots used verbatim. There is no question that dunn is a poser here and followed the known Zid game plan, that is disrupt and make personal attacks.

          • blushedbrown says:


            Oh ok, its not our true beloved sdunn5? It is an imposter? Why would they want to be sdunn5? Isn’t he for Justice?

          • racerrodig says:

            I don’t know all the players, all I can say is someone else picked up on this early today and I have been attacked for no reason in typical Zidiot fashion by this sdunn5. Called ME George !!!!!!!

          • blushedbrown says:


            I stepped away for a minute and come back to kerfuffle!

            No way, you a George..GTFOH!

          • racerrodig says:

            GTFOOH is putting it very mildly.

          • blushedbrown says:


            I got your back, Homie. You are my roll dog, you hear. I got you.

          • racerrodig says:

            i have your back as well. I know you see what is happening.

          • cielo62 says:

            blushedbrown, dear friend. The LAST time this sdunn5 person posted on here, it was to attack people like me, piranhamom, MMP and others. I dont know any other sdunn5, so to me this person has always been a rude troll.


          • blushedbrown says:


            There were two. the real one and the fake. Prof has already banned.

          • blushedbrown says:

            How is it possible that he overtook his name? I thought all the names here were unique?

          • racerrodig says:

            I have no idea however read what it calls me….now I’m a douche bag. ??? There is an agenda with this one of that there is no doubt.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Douche Bag ????? Is that what it called you!!! WOW ! I haven’t heard that term since 19….

          • racerrodig says:

            Yep, that’s what it called me. The same thing a few sock puppets on HP said regularly. Do you think the Professor will grove on that ?

          • blushedbrown says:

            It seems when the teacher is away on business, they turn into other entities. I do believe he will not be happy when he returns and his blog was filled with the nonsense that was spewed to you and about our miltary.

            We all have strong opinions, but we do not attack each other. We have a healthy debate here, and I am sure that the Professor will take some sort of action.

          • racerrodig says:

            I’ve only seen this one for a few days or so. I don’t get into the personality end and take everyone at face value here. I can tell when there is a disingenuous poser a mile away. This one made the statements about Taaffe so I would react. All I did was quote Taaffe and you backed me up without my even asking, by posting an interview.

            Now common sense would have put anyone else in a “opps, my bad” mode. Not this one. Right to the personal attack.

          • blushedbrown says:


            >>>>>Now common sense would have put anyone else in a “opps, my bad” mode. Not this one. Right to the personal attack.

            You are so right. I checked back on the emails and WHOA, I was like its true what he is saying, what is the malfunction? Unbelievable.

            Like Xena said, we need to keep the light shining.

          • racerrodig says:

            You’re right and you also see I use very high wattage bulbs.

          • blushedbrown says:


            The biggest wattage ever!

          • racerrodig says:

            Like I say….RZ jr is as bright as a 2 watt bulb, but we got the big guns here………light ’em up !!!!

          • blushedbrown says:

          • Xena says:

            Full armor, brother. Full armor. Should we be surprised that with a special day in honor of a special person is within hours, that darkness would seek to overpower the light?

            Tomorrow isn’t just the day that Trayvon would have turned 18 had GZ not killed him, but it’s also the day that his killer has to go to court for the court to rule on motions filed by his attorney.

            Let us not get distracted, but have oil in our lamps and let the light shine.

          • racerrodig says:

            The 5th Dimension

            Let the sunshine, let the sunshine in, the sunshine in
            Let the sunshine, let the sunshine in, the sunshine in
            Let the sunshine, let the sunshine in, the sunshine in

            Oh, let it shine, c’mon
            Now everybody just sing along
            Let the sun shine in
            Open up your heart and let it shine on in
            When you are lonely, let it shine on
            Got to open up your heart and let it shine on in
            And when you feel like you’ve been mistreated
            And your friends turn away
            Just open your heart, and shine

            Hey Fogen…….hows your day going !!

          • Xena says:

            Ahhh. From the stage play “Hair” that the Fifth Dimension incorporated with the song “Aquarius.” That’s Trayvon’s star sign.

            Tomorrow — let it be a day of light in that courtroom!!!!

          • racerrodig says:

            Amen !!

          • racerrodig says:

            This is your celebration

            Celebrate good times, come on!
            (Let’s celebrate)
            Celebrate good times, come on!
            (Let’s celebrate)

            There’s a party goin’ on right here
            Fogen’s gone down….gone down for many years
            So bring your good times and your laughter too
            We gonna celebrate a party ‘cuz of you

            Come on now, celebration
            Let’s all celebrate and have a good time
            We gonna celebrate and have a good time

            It’s time to come together
            It’s up to you, what’s your pleasure?
            Everyone around the world come on!

            It’s a celebration

            Celebrate good times, come on!
            (It’s a celebration)
            Celebrate good times, come on!
            (Let’s celebrate)

            There’s a party goin’ on right here
            A vindication Fogens gone for years and years
            So bring your good times and your laughter too
            We gonna celebrate and party ‘cuz of you

            Come on now, celebration
            Let’s all celebrate and have a good time, yeah yeah
            We gonna celebrate and have a good time

            It’s time to come together
            It’s up to you, what’s your pleasure?
            Everyone around the world come on!

            It’s a celebration
            It’s a celebration

            Celebrate good times, come on!
            (Let’s celebrate come on now)
            Celebrate good times, come on!
            (Let’s celebrate)

            We’re gonna have a good time tonight
            Let’s celebrate, it’s all right
            We’re gonna have a good time tonight
            Let’s celebrate, it’s all right, baby

            We’re gonna have a good time tonight
            Let’s celebrate, it’s all right
            We’re gonna have a good time tonight
            Let’s celebrate, it’s all right


            Celebrate good times, come on!
            (Let’s celebrate)
            Celebrate good times, come on!
            (It’s a celebration)

            Celebrate good times, come on!
            (Let’s celebrate)
            (Come on and celebrate tonight)
            Celebrate good times, come on!
            (‘Cause everything’s gonna be alright, let’s celebrate)

            Celebrate good times, come on!
            (Let’s celebrate)
            Celebrate good times, come on!

          • Xena says:

            ALRIGHT!! I’m dancing. I’m dancing. LOL! Funny, I was just thinking today about Spring coming, and entering some craft fairs to sell plarn items and using the money to pay for or defray the costs of transportation and hotel rooms so we can gather and celebrate when GZ is sentenced this summer.

            But, for me to do that means not blogging. 😦

          • racerrodig says:

            Huge BBQ here on conviction weekend. Ribs ‘ n Chicken ! Homemade Potato Salad, Homemade BBQ sauce, corn on the cob, all sorts of deserts…..all in honor of Trayvon & his family. If I could get them here..I would.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena~ maybe it’s a typo, but what is a “plarn” item?


          • Xena says:


            Xena~ maybe it’s a typo, but what is a “plarn” item?

            🙂 Plarn is yarn made from plastic bags. Plastic bags are re-usable, but not recyclable. They are cut and connected to make a ball of “plarn” and then crocheted or knitted into things such as coasters, tote bags, baby bibs. For several months off and on, I’ve been working on a table cloth for my patio table.

          • I just did.

            I have banned Sdunn5.

            I believe someone hacked her account.

            Apologies to Mike for my brusque response earlier when he attempted to warn me.

            Apologies to everyone for not catching the troll earlier, but I wasn’t here most of the day and did not become aware of what happened until around an hour ago.

          • blushedbrown says:


            Thank you, Prof.

          • racerrodig says:

            We stood our ground, watched each others back and fought the good fight. A Zidiot attack is easy to see. Fix bayonets and prepare to repel borders.

            mountainmanpat….I see it attacked you as well. I see you crushed it’s skull as well…………..well done my man.

            And thank you Professor for the banishment. We feel safe here and fight them off but that one was flat out CraZZy

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Probably through a hacked account!

          • racerrodig says:

            That’s exactly what it turned out to be. I can smell a Zidiot a mile away.

          • Xena says:

            Ahhhhh. Blushedbrown, I just sent you a comment and changed my handle to blushedbrown2. It’s in moderation. Professor, please delete my comment submitted as blushebrown2 It was an experiment.

            What I tried was using my same email address but a different handle. Well, now we know it goes into moderation, so even with the same email address, the program recognized that the handle I used is not associated with the email address.

          • blushedbrown says:


            >>>>>What I tried was using my same email address but a different handle. Well, now we know it goes into moderation, so even with the same email address, the program recognized that the handle I used is not associated with the email address.

            How about trying a different email address with the same handle?

          • Xena says:

            I’ll try some things out over on my blog — don’t want to make more work for the professor. Whatever results, I’ll email to you. Some eyes that maybe shouldn’t know might be watching.

          • racerrodig says:

            “Some eyes that maybe shouldn’t know might be watching.”

            I could not agree more.

          • blushedbrown says:


            I like experiments, can I help?

          • Xena says:

            @blushedbrown. Give me a minute and then check your email.

          • blushedbrown says:

            okie dokie!

          • racerrodig says:

            I’ll help. Take 2 eggs, 1 cup brown sugar, 2 cups of fresh flour. teaspoon of vanilla extract, 2 1/4 cups sugar, 1/2 bag of chocolate morsels, pinch of salt, 2 sticks of butter and if you mix and make 2 inch round drops and bake at 375 and they taste like CC cookies, the experiment worked.

          • Xena says:

            RACERRODIG!!! Stop it! 🙂 I don’t bake — but I did receive a box of Godiva chocolates for my birthday. Half the box is gone already. Hmm, hmm, good.

          • racerrodig says:

            He He…for the record I did not touch the chocolates.

          • Xena says:

            LOL@raccerrodig. My birthday is Wednesday, and because my son works during the week, it did things up for me yesterday. He’s so precious. The Godiva chocolates might not last until Wednesday. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Happy Birthday !! & Happy Birthday Trayvon….my man, you are surely missed and in a better place. Trust me, there will be Justice !

          • racerrodig says:

            I will stay in the holding patter, bleary eyed as I am.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Hey Xena,
            There can only be one!


          • Xena says:

            I LOVE the Highlander movies. The first one with Sean Connery, I think I watched 500 times. 🙂

          • blushedbrown says:

            me too …. sean connery sexy sexy sexy

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yep, he even said it again to Marinade Dave in his walk through videos posted on youtube.

          • racerrodig says:

            That sdunn5 was a Zidiot from the past I smoked more than likely on HP that hijacked a poster. It was obvious pretty early where that was going.

          • blushedbrown says:


            When push came to shove when he had to talk to FDLe he characterize his relationship with gz as an acquaintance. I think it was more then that.

            Click to access sa_oliver_taaffee.pdf

          • racerrodig says:

            There is no question. These 2 racists found each other somehow and with all of the Taaffe interviews where he talks about his friend, nobody can convince me otherwise.

          • blushedbrown says:


            I’m with you 100%.

          • racerrodig says:

            3 or so dozen interviews later and some poser on a mission is going to tell any of us they were not friends. Get a grip !!~

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Ah yes, that document, it contains a number of errors. The SPD’s original website stated that GZ had been required to take a 14 hour course on Neighborhood Watch and that there were several protocols. It appears to me that GZ didn’t tell his fellow NW’ers because, then they would know that he wasn’t supposed to patrol with a firearm. My guess is an internet archive might have a copy.
            In any event I remember it because, when I went to the National Sheriff’s Association website, I discovered that they offered a 14 hour course on NW. I thought it very likely that the SPD had merely downloaded the course and administered it to GZ, but no, what the NSA does is, they put you in touch with someone who comes and gives the course to the designated personnel.

            Taaffe tells a different story about himself and GZ in his media interviews. At one point stating that they patrolled together.

          • racerrodig says:

            Yes !! I remember that.

      • tonydphotog says:

        @Xena- You’re right about the periods. The comments I’m seeing from the sdunn5 impostor look a lot like those from a recent troll. I see a lot of “…….” between words, just like the recent troll did. I’m guessing it’s the same person, possibly even fogen.

      • 2dogsonly says:

        Well, maybe she/he’s trolling but still pretty clever writing.

    • racerrodig says:

      Go back to some of Taaffe’s interviews. He cl;early says they are friends and in one says Fogen was so feed up and was “…the perfect storm..” Clearly they knew each other. I can guarantee we will hear that there is a cell call between them that night before the murder.

      • sdunn5 says:

        Racer you just showed your hand to me didn’t you? My my my. Those Federal Law Enforcement connections are a bit hazy right? Connected well…………..I would say for you not so much…..

        • racerrodig says:

          Really ?? The only one who would say anything l;ikme that is on of tyhe members of the Zidit Nation from HP that got smoked months before. For the record, I doi have connections, they ain’t hazy and I have yet to make a bad call. Evidently you have an agenda and are very disingeuous.

          I’d say an Outhouser for sure and you’rtethe one who showed your hand.

          • sdunn5 says:

            really what an ass you are HP well how can I count the charges? Get the point, Outhouse ok you got me! that’s what you use to take a crap right?

          • racerrodig says:

            You gave yourself away poser. Go back the the Treehouse.

          • sdunn5 says:

            Poser???????? George go to sleep.

          • racerrodig says:

            Obviously you have done no research on what I say on thois matter. Wow…..I’ve been part of and coinerd the name “Team Trayvon” loooong ago and you call me George. You are so far off it’s a joke, a real serious issue you have.

          • sdunn5 says:

            No you have the serious issue lets be perfectly clear on that point.

          • racerrodig says:

            Wrong as always. You’re the isssue laden one, just not smart enough to see the jiug is up.

          • sdunn5 says:

            laden hahaha no you give yourself up

          • cielo62 says:

            Once again you are incredibly rude, and your crudeness is not appreciated. Don’t you have anything better to do, like learn about Ipods or something?

      • MichelleO says:

        I remember Taaffe’s statement about Fogen calling him at his girlfriend’s house when some “black dudes” were looking into his open windows. Taaffe went onto say that he got back in time, and credits Fogen with stopping a possible burgarly in progress. So, yes, they knew one another quite well. As a matter of fact, I remember something about Fogen replacing Taaffe as the neighborhhod watch “captain.”

        • racerrodig says:

          All of that would be correct. How could they not be friends if FogenPhoole had Taaffe’s girlfriends #….Not possible. Another slam dunk right in yer face sduun5…

  14. Dave says:

    I figure that he was either desperate for a smoke or needed to talk privately with DeeDee.

    • Mike says:

      My thoughts exactly.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Dave, how then do we explain the fact that no lighter and no [empty parkers of] cigarettes, etc. were found on Trayvon. In fact nothing found on Trayvon suggests that he went out that night to smoke or may have smoked that day.

      • Rachael says:

        I had heard that they did find a lighter but for “some reason,” it wasn’t mentioned. Of course, AFAIC, that reason is because it did not really exist, but there are those who say it does and I’ll check and see if it is in evidence. As far as finding no cigs on him, he didn’t have ID and was not able to buy any. But again, I don’t understand this topic. So what if he had cigs? I mean yes, he is under age to purchase, but usually the seller gets fined for that and we don’t shoot the teen for it. At least not in my state.

        • Xena says:


          I had heard that they did find a lighter but for “some reason,” it wasn’t mentioned.

          At one time I carried a lighter although I didn’t smoke. It was the next best thing to a flashlight.

      • blushedbrown says:


        Trayvon did have a lighter.
        Page 75 of 183 First discovery dump.


        You are correct no cigarettes, blunt, weed was found on his person.

      • Dave says:

        He did have a lighter in his pocket as well as traces of THC in his blood so we know that he smoked reefer at least. I don’t know if he smoked tobacco or not but if his dad disapproved and if he had run out of smokes this might have been his first opportunity in several days to slip out and buy some. To “walk a mile for a Camel” makes more sense than to walk a mile for a can of watermelon-flavored sugar water.

      • groans says:

        BB, you are cracking me up with your “johnny on the spot” info!


      • groans says:


      • groans says:

        Third time’s the charm!

      • Eric says:

        Dave,you’re comment would make sense if he smokes on him. Martin didn’t. He had candy and a drink. Once again, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

      • Dave says:

        He had a lighter and Trayvon wasn’t a guy who carried anything unnecessary in his pockets. He had no wallet, no keys, no knife, no nail clippers…just money, a phone and a lighter.

        If he went out for cigarets it would seem that nobody would sell to him and he couldn’t get anyone to buy for him. I don’t know that he was on a cigaret run or not and I don’t think it’s especially important. I just think that a smoker would be more likely to take a long walk in the rain for a nicotine fix than for a can of Arizona Watermelon Flavored Sugar Water.

    • Eric says:

      Dave, why would he walk to the store in order to smoke and talk when that could have been accomplished on his porch? Nice to see you buy into CTH buyins something to smoke.

      Lonnie star, you are trying waaay to hard. Maybe Martin doesn’t walk alot a places because he typically he has someone to drive him to the store. How do you know he didn’t come out once to go to the store? Where did you get that from? There’s nothing odd about a teenager going to a convient store and not buying groceries. Being a teenager does not make one a pig. Because Martin doesn’t display, according to you, the average teenage appetite, are you implying he didn’t go to the store? Is the video a hoax? You have turned a trip to the store by a teenager into silly twilight zone episode. You find it odd that someone would walk to a store in the evening. Really? Did you find it odd that others were out? For instance, the kids standing behind him in line. Is their behavior on a rainey night nefarious? Shouldn’t they be purchasing huge quanities of junk food? You make it sound as if martin was out at midnight. Was it raining cats and dogs all day and all evening? Are you saying the rain never let up enough to allow Martin to believe he could get to the store and back without getting drenched? You, like Dave, and CTH crowd are turning this kid into weed head up to no good. And that sounds familar. Martin simply went to the store in dicey weather. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

      • racerrodig says:

        To be honest, I would walk almost a mile to a convenience store for a bag (or 2) of Wise BBQ Potato Chips as nobody else in town sold them. I’d also walk a block farther to the news agency for my Nascar, Hot Rod & Super Stock & Drag Illustrated magazines the day they came out. I usually walked or jogged part way as part of my football exercises. Once in awhile I’d ride my bike. The point is, kids do that stuff.

        Not to mention Trayvon did this for Chad.

        • blushedbrown says:

          I agree sometimes I will go out of my way for things I want. I also will go out just because I’ve been cooped up in the house and will make a trip to a thrift store just for the hell of it because I want to go outside. Not that I specifically need anything, just because I need to get out.

          People tend to forget that what Trayvon did was not out of the ordinary. He was bored. Teenagers don’t sit still. He was away from Mom. He missed his Mom. He missed the young lady he was nearer to. I would of jumped up from the porch and and did the same thing if I were in Trayvon’s shoes. It was something to do.

          • racerrodig says:

            You got it !!! Even at my age I just have a need to get out of the shop or house.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Me too, I’m not young, I’m not old, but sometimes you just have to get out!

          • racerrodig says:

            Okay, I’ll meet ya down the corner….we’ll do dinner, my treat.

          • blushedbrown says:


            Okie Dokie!


          • racerrodig says:

            Make that the SW corner !! Italian ??

          • blushedbrown says:

            I love italian!

          • racerrodig says:

            Then Italian it is !!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, I could see that if Trayvon wasn’t such a home body. On Saturday, after half a day with Dad at the trade show, he goes home to sleep rather than to the football game. He and Chad are found sleeping when Tracy and Brandy get home. Saturday they’ve got all day together, they’re all home, Tracy, Brandy, Trayvon and Chad and all day long they’ve nothing to do.

            I can’t see a reason he would not want either Brandy or Tracy to know that he’s inclined to buy iced tea or why Chad would want to keep it secret that he has this desired for skittles.

            So then, why not suggest a trip to the store? The weather isn’t all that inviting, but at least there would have been daylight. I can’t believe that Trayvon wouldn’t know that he wanted snacks for later, since that’s what people in rural areas, where the stores are close to a mile from home, usually do. You learn to think ahead. I used to live where the nearest store was a 30 minute walk one way. So you really thought ahead to be sure there was a ride or, like at Emerald Lakes, you didn’t want to be walking those road after dark. Do able but scary since there were so many drunks on the roads back then.

            In any event, like I said the fortuitousness of this shopping trip is so out of phase with the normal confines of “coincidence”, I have to believe there’s more to it than TM simply going out for iced tea and skittles after dark in the rain. It just doesn’t feel right even from over a 1,000 miles away.

          • It provided an excuse to get out of the house to talk to Dee Dee.

          • racerrodig says:

            There ya go !!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, I’m familiar with being bored stiff. Also yes again, it is something teenagers do, heck even young and middle aged adults do it. So, it’s not suspicious that it was done, it’s suspicious because of the timing and how what takes place, needs this time set to work. Otherwise there might very likely be more people out walking their dogs, that wouldn’t do would it?

            So, Trayvon needs to be walking on a rainy night, to suppress foot traffic, dog walking and veranda sitting, as well as kids playing. Did we get these conditions on any other day of that week? February in Florida, night time, early evening temperatures are going to be quite pleasant and inviting on most days.

            So it devolves to, you need Trayvon to walk to the store on this particular day, but not in the afternoon or before dark, you need him to leave home in the dark on a rainy night. That means he has to be “called upon”, because the perp has a weather concern.

            Thus it is not that Trayvon is needed to walk to the store, but it is, that he’s needed to walk to the store under specific weather conditions and after dark. Nothing else will work because otherwise there will be witnesses who are able to see clearly.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Did this for Chad? There’s a flow that goes with any household and it usually is pretty much the same for all households. The wife is just about the only one who asks members to go to the store, usually because they’re making things for the family and can’t easily get away.

          With Chad engrossed with his computer games, it’s doubtful he would break out of his trance and ask Trayvon to go to the store for skittles for him.

          Now, I know this is just speculation, so there’s not going to be any proof. But, what I’m saying is, this trip to the store has the wrong look and feel to it, to be a simple impromptu trip for pre-game snacks.

          I doubt Chad asked him to go to the store and he decided to get an iced tea while he was there. It makes more sense that he had already decided he was going to go to the store, then asked Chad if he wanted anything. That’s the way things usually go down. I sincerely doubt that Chad would put upon TM to walk to the store to get him a package of skittles, if TM had not already made it known he was going.

          Note too that nothing TM purchased was perishable. Meaning that this trip could just as easily, and more comfortably, have been make earlier in the day. Most people and kids in Florida are used to being driven where they need to go, because of the distances involved. So, if it was to be snacks for the game that night, most likely Trayvon would have asked his father first.

          There there’s the matter of “luck of the draw”, Trayvon has been at RATL for six days and hasn’t made a single trip out on foot, no matter what the weather. So, perhaps if he had decided to walk to the store on Saturday night, would he have been killed then? What about Thursday afternoon? Monday morning? All we can say is “could be”. Maybe yes, maybe no. But, if he doesn’t go to the store in good weather in daylight, why after dark in the rain?

          Worse yet, I get the feeling that it had to go down on that Sunday because Monday would have been too late. I don’t know where or why I come by that feeling, must have been something I read somewhere about something going on at RATL. Perhaps we’ll get lucky and someone will come across it again.

          • racerrodig says:

            We could discuss this for years and never know why. The bottom line is that no matter what, Fogen had no right to do any of what he did. If Trayvon was lured out, common sense tells me we would know something about that.

            I think Chad would have said someone called ……Trayvon then left…..I don’t know who it was……..Blah, blah, blah.

            I wasn’t there and there is nothing that says anything other than Chad asked Trayvon to get him Skittles and Iced Tea.

            I do find it weird that he walked in the rain over a mile each way BUT I did the same thing…..

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Well… like I said it’s just the feeling I get from the way the facts are arrayed. If Trayvon got a curious call to come out, I doubt he’d have shared that with Chad. But, as a general rule, when you need someone to do something at “an optimal time”, it usually doesn’t happen without some kind of instigation.

            My point is not to stir up a conspiracy theory, however, but to keep eyes open to possibilities that even the most gossamer evidence suggests, because if proof positive is to be discovered, it helps to have a frame to fit it in, or there’s a chance it might not be recognized for what it is.

            For example those boys who appeared at 711 might not get the closer look they deserve, was the white guy one of the Emmanuel Burgess group? We may never find anything, but then, at least we’re less likely to miss it if something appears.

            My first guess in this case was that GZ had not really seen TM by FT’s, over on Bcc:list.com, there were people posting I was off the mark, for the same reasons being stated about this particular guess I’m making here. Most of it had to do with normalizing the behavioral traits and explaining artifacts away as coincidences.

            Yet… Now I’m getting a feeling that something big is going to break before we have a chance to discover more about this case on our own. Maybe it’s something the Professor said? I don’t think GZ will be able to take the stress for much longer.

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m big on finding out what really happened even if I go down the conspiracy road from time to time. I’m a “..show me..” guy. I go on the timeline that states Chad stated right up front with no know provocation that he asked Trayvon to go to the store.

            I feel that he may have been just trying to the right thing and have Chad tell his mom and Trayvon’s dad what a great big brother Trayvon will be…..I could be dead wrong on that.

            I doubt FogenPhoole and the FogenPhoolePhamily are dealing with this well at all. Where’s SheLie been….Pa Pa Z and Mummsie.

            The only one blabbing is RZ jr and he’s more off the wall than ever. I think someone needs to say “….can you pee in this cup please”

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Well that’s something I missed, where do I find the statement? Thanks.

            I was just looking at the Bcc:list and the 711 video. They have a funny angle from the camera facing the front counter. But you can see out the front windows. I notice that just as Trayvon is leaving a car pulls in, a few seconds later these guys come in. But that’s when I notice that these guys are hiding their faces. Here: http://bcclist.com/2012/08/04/bcclist-mentioned-in-the-miami-herald/

            Scroll down a bit, you’ll see it. They do a good job of making the hiding of the faces seem casual, but they do it effectively anyway.
            I noticed that Trayvon paid for his purchases using exact change. You can see this because, after he hands over bills, he keeps digging and the clerk keeps waiting. Only when he hands over the change does the clerk ring up the sale. From the look of the amount of change the clerk dumps in the draw, Trayvon must have used quite a bit of change to make his purchase.

            Two of them go out side to speak with Trayvon before he leaves, while one of them stays behind and uses a credit or debit card to pay for his purchases. A car pulls in to the lot and the other car, presumably with the boys in it leaves. It would be right behind Trayvon and in a good position to keep and eye on him.

          • blushedbrown says:

            @Lonnie & Racer

            I can not stress enough that Trayvon was just bored. His brother said it and Brandi said it. He asked Chad did he want anything from the store, yes some Skittles. This is normal for anyone to ask and do.

            Dr. Phil said, He went to the store to get some Skittles, and he came home dead.”

            We all know this should of not happened.

            I think the CTH and other pro-gz sites thinks this is nefarious in some way. For those at those site to say he was actually doing something else, (criminal) infuriates me to no end. Going to the store, getting a snack for his little brother and a drink for himself is nothing suspcious to do. He was stir crazy and bored. He had no idea that a simple trip to the store would end up the way it did.

            No one did.

            I hate to cite Fox News but here is the Interview.


          • racerrodig says:

            I think and have stated I believe Chad said “…hey man, can you get me some Skittles……and a drink” and Trayvon said no problem….now I can chat with my girlfriend…..undisturbed.
            I don’t think there is any more to it than that as of this moment.

          • blushedbrown says:


            Yes you did write that.

            >>>>> I don’t think there is any more to it than that as of this moment.

            Totally agree.



          • racerrodig says:

            For all we know there may be something else but as of right now I think it was just an errand to be a good example to Chad.
            Brandi and Tracy were merging families and Tracy may have said to Trayvon…..”…he’s gonna be your little brother some day, you need to be the good big brother”

          • blushedbrown says:


            You are a good egg. I love ya for that!

          • racerrodig says:

            I appreciate that and I still can’t believe how fast you smoked sdunn5 with a video of a Taaffe interview the other day covering my back.

            You…..are the Man !! as we say.

          • blushedbrown says:

            I have had that said to me more times than I can count.
            There was now way I was going to let someone attack you, baby.
            I got your back, always.

          • racerrodig says:

            That’s what we do here at Team Trayvon……and smoking Zidiots comes with the territory.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Team Trayvon!
            Hoodies Up!

          • racerrodig says:

            My hoodies still up !!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            You missed our point in contention. But thanks for the link because that ends that portion of the debate with a definite answer.

            In accordance with my theory that Trayvon is likely to have been lured out of the house, rather than simply having upped and decided to go to the store on his own. I was told that Trayvon went to the store because Chad had asked him.

            To me that seemed odd, I don’t think someone engrossed in playing video games would stop to impose upon someone for something so trivial. I get the impression that the house has a good store of snacks already around. Neither Tracey Martin nor Brandy Green appear to be under any kind of financial straits at all. People under financial duress do not attend seminars or go to football games afterwards. Less casually hand out money for movies and snacks to their children.

            The link you provided shows my guess was true. Chad says that Trayvon first told him that he was going to the store and asked Chad if he wanted anything.

            So the first link in my theory is confirmed, the idea of going to the store originated with Trayvon.

            I can’t explain right now, why this idea of Trayvon suddenly launching a trip to the store, has a very wrong look and feel to it for me, but it does. I’ll have to keep reading to find the thing that puts that idea in my head, I must already have read it once, but I have no idea of how gossamer a clue it might be, or even if I happened to have misread something. One thing I have learned is, never simply dismiss a misreading out-of-hand. You may be in error in what you thought you read, but there is usually a good reason why you got the wrong impression. It usually has to do with something you had read before, or a questionable impression you formed, that left you so biased in some way that, upon reading you made mistaken assumptions and that, coupled with what you were reading not being very clear resulted in error. But watch out below because, not all “errors” are wrong. It’s the double negative thing, a mistaken error is right. 😀

          • racerrodig says:

            I’m not sure exactly where to find that statement but I do know that is what the story is from day 1. I believe Tracy Martin stated it the day after or so and my Federal LE guys have stated that also that it is what has been stated from the beginning. If not, we’d know about it.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Our Grand High Exalted Mystic Archivist BlushedBrown had found it for us. http://tinyurl.com/ar8gsyh

            Chad says that Trayvon told him that he was going to the store and asked Chad if he wanted anything. Chad did not ask Trayvon to go to the store!

            Now, I can accept that teens get antsy and may suddenly jump up for a walk to the store as a diversion. But, teens aren’t stupid and they’re not gluttons for punishment either. So they tend not to make such trips during inclement weather. My guess is they probably had plenty of snacks in the house already. Brandy and Tracey don’t seem to be cheapskates and they don’t appear to deny the kids anything. Otherwise, at the store, I’d have expected TM to pick up chips, candy, cookies and or cakes for a trip this long with a game to watch.

            I would like to know if Brandy found her patio door ajar when she next checked it. I’d like to know what kinds of snacks she and Tracey had in the house that the kids could have eaten or drank. Juices, sodas, cookies candies, chips and such. During the summer months I usually have a gallon of iced tea in the fridge.

            Oh, and before I forget, didn’t they just come back from somewhere? Ms Green and Tracey had only just left for dinner. For a Floridian 60 degrees is a very cool temperature, 50 is down right freezing for them, they need jackets at that temp (although what they call jackets down there we call windbreakers up here).

            Of course, so far I can only call it a draw between him being lured out and going out on impulse. Still the odds seem to me, to be weighed in favor of “lured out”.

            Remember those guys at the store? There’s two blacks and one white!

            Then remember the guys who the police stopped with Burgess? Three blacks and one white. That was February 7th, Burgess went to jail on parole violation. These guys were on bikes, pretty much like a gang. So, are these the same guys who suddenly show up at 711 and catch TM just before he leaves? There are two blacks and one white guy. Seem odd? How about them keeping their faces concealed from the camera a good bit? All for naught though since one of them foolishly uses his debit card to make a purchase while the others have gone outside.

            They’re traveling by car, TM’s traveling on foot. Yet, no offer of a lift even though it’s raining out side???

            What no blunt? Of course not! Even if they’d told him they’d get him one, or cigarettes or anything else, they wouldn’t do it, because they wouldn’t want him to have anything with their fingerprints on it. Which explains why they wouldn’t offer him a lift home. No, they didn’t have to know that he was to be killed, all they had to know was that something was going to happen, or that someone was interested in knowing where he was going, what he was doing and when.

            It would take Trayvon 16 minutes to walk home, it would take them about a minute to drive back to RATL.

          • racerrodig says:

            From the mouth of babe’s. Thanks, I stand corrected. Somehow I missed that interview.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Gee, I’ve already said that he doesn’t walk to the store because he gets driven. I think it’s Crump who lets it be known that Trayvon didn’t walk to the store in the whole six days he’s been at RATL.

        And yes, it is odd that a teen, after six days of not going to the store or being driven etc., whatever, suddenly decides to get up and go, after dark in the rain. And for such a trip, to only get iced tea and skittles? It’s hardly worth the walk. My guess is they have plenty to drink at home already, so if iced tea and skittles is all the mission is about, he could just as easily have done without it.

        Otherwise, I don’t have to work over time to create some vision of the twilight zone, it’s quite strange enough that the one trip to the story results in his last day on earth. Remember, he stayed at home all day doing little to nothing when he could have left on this walk while it was still light out. As far as talking to his GF, he’s already been doing that all day long, remember his father and his fiance had left them at home.

        The point is, no outsider had any right to expect that TM would emerge from that house after dark in the rain. I sincerely doubt that any neighborhood watchers would believe that this would have been an optimal time to keep an eye out either. Thus, the most likely indication is someone knew to expect something, and that’s probably because they’d planned it and instigated it somehow.

  15. Lonnie Starr says:

    It still seems strange enough to me, to be remarkable that Burgess goes to jail in early February, for things that are not as bad as what he’d already been released for.

    The story is that he and three friends were stopped by two policemen, a stolen computer was found in the book bag of one of EB’s friends and EB claims ownership of it, then flees. The police stay there restraining the other subjects, then finally one of the policemen takes off in pursuit of EB. He catches EB barely 100 feet away on the other side of the buildings behind RATL. I mean, gee, EB didn’t run very far or fast eh? More likely he ran out of sight and waited for the policeman to arrive for a talk.

    Next thing we know EB is being put in jail for “parole violation”, but, parole violating is what EB has been doing for a very long time and still being released from jail, eh? So, it seems to me that this threat of something being done by GZ has been going around for some time. EB does seem like the most likely target if GZ is threatening to bag him a thug. With EB out of reach, the hunt for a new subject was ongoing until TM arrived in the hood.

    But wait, TM doesn’t walk anywhere. He never comes out of the house to go to the store. He only comes out to play, but never to walk anywhere by himself. He has been there for six days already and hasn’t come out of the house once to go to the store. So, then, why does he suddenly get this urge to go to the store on a Sunday night in the rain? Hardly the optimum time or weather for a long walk, nor are the purchases anything near urgent or necessary or even very highly desired. For a 2.5 hour game, just one can of iced tea? No chips? Candy, pretzels, popcorn? What about those famous teen appetites?

    The trip seems more like a nerve racking trip of curiosity than an errant trip to the store for munchies for the game.

    • SearchingMind says:

      `….TM doesn’t walk anywhere. He never comes out of the house to go to the store. He only comes out to play, but never to walk anywhere by himself. He has been there for six days already and hasn’t come out of the house once to go to the store´ ….

      How do you know this?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        The family says it. It’s been posted on several blogs already, I’m sure it’s in one of the dumps.

        • blushedbrown says:



          page 32 of 284

          second Discovery dump. Brandy Green

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Our Top Researcher does it again… You are Amazing!!!

          • blushedbrown says:


            De nada, my friend!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Also I note with additional surprise, Tracy and Brandy weren’t gone so long that boredom should have been a problem. Trayvon doesn’t appear to be all that active a child, since on the day before, Saturday, Trayvon opted to go back to the house, instead of attending a football game, and was found sleeping when Tracy and Brandy returned home. Even though Saturday does not appear to have been that strenuous a day.

            So, here we have this picture of Trayvon, who would rather sleep on a good weather day, than attend a game. Yet, he’d mount a 1.4 mile walk in the rain after dark? The picture is badly out of phase, is what I’m getting. This has always been a good indication to me, that there is more information to it, that we’re not getting.

          • blushedbrown says:


            I am not surprised at at all that he was bored. Trayvon actually did attend the football game that Chad was having .

            In part from discovert page 32 of 284

            Paragrah 2

            Chad had a football game and got a ride with the coach.
            Saturday night 7:00pm – 7:30 pm, they attended the football game.
            Trayvon’s cousin, (redacted cousin name) met them at the football game.
            Afterwards, Trayvon and Chad were plannig on going to the movies with (redacted cousin name). Tracey gave money Trayvon money for the movies and to get something to eat. (redacted) advised that they never went to the movies. Trayvon, Chad and (redacted cousin name) went back to Green’s residence where they spent the night.

            Tracey and Brandi stayed at the hotel that night. His cousin drives. There was a decision made that the boys would go one way, meaning to the movies, while the adults went another way, back to the hotel where the convention was being held. The cousin is of age and did the driving. They returned home, when Trayvon did not like the scene at the movies. This is in the cousin’s statement IIRC to FDLE.

            Brandi said this…

            You have to remember that Trayvon was not a regular visitor at Brandi’s. He was sent there by his MoM. He was away from her, his friends, and DeeDee. Teenagers dealing with a suspensions, are like is this ever going to be over. I miss my school, I miss my friends,
            I don’t know anyone here, except Chad. I am going stir crazy. I’m going for a walk. He had no idea, that he would be followed, stalked, pursed and then killed because he just happened to be bored.
            I am trying to keep to the KISS rule. I do have other theories that I might think of, but all in all, the simplest answer is the one that is usually true.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            You’re right, I squished that reading wrong. They did go to the game, ah, I had 500 plus emails in just the Trayvon box alone.

            But yes, I am keeping it simple. What’s making things complicated are the needs. It’s like trying to put on a play. It all seems so simple from sitting in the audience. You don’t get to see the madhouse behind the scene that makes the simple possible.

            So, I start out seeing: Hey, he gets word, he comes out hunting, he finds Trayvon, makes his NeN call, follows Trayvon and shoots him. But then there’s all these lies and the evidence which tells us that what happened wasn’t so simple as all that.

            There’s a need for a witness to lie and say that he saw something he didn’t see, and that lie has to match the lie GZ is going to be telling later. There’s all these unexplained noises on the NeN tape.

            There’s blood and wounds that appear to require choreography. Hey, plenty of blood on his head and neck, even more blood on his hands and arms, but very little blood on his clothes???? Oh yeah, how could we forget, clothes can be taken and the blood on them tested days, weeks and even months later. So, we have wounds that GZ doesn’t want professionally examined, and pro fused bleeding that just happens to avoid the clothing, hmmm…

            All kicked off by an errant trip to the store that starts after dark in the rain. Just what the doctor ordered from GZ’s point of view. How did he get so lucky?

      • Eric says:

        Well, evidently Branding Green is wrong. Did Martin fly to the store? Or maybe he was abducted by aliens and dropped off at the 7-11? Again maybe he got the urge because nobody was at home to drive him. To arrive at the conclusion that Martin must have been up to good because it was raining off and on, and he find’t purchase the apprioate amount of nutrional filth, so sayeth Lonnie is as absurd as most of what’s written at cth.

    • Xena says:

      @Lonnie Starr

      Next thing we know EB is being put in jail for “parole violation”, but, parole violating is what EB has been doing for a very long time and still being released from jail, eh? So, it seems to me that this threat of something being done by GZ has been going around for some time.

      Thank you for posting this again. Since I first saw GZ’s re-enactment, and then read his written statement, the association between 2/2/12 and 2/26/12 sticks with me. It strongly speaks that GZ associates Burgess with his actions on 2/26/12. When GZ called the cops on 2/2/12, he said that he had seen the guy on garbage days going through garbage. Burgess was no stranger to GZ.

      Then, GZ says he was walking his dog when he saw Burgess standing by Taaffe’s. GZ also said that he walked his dog on the dog path where he killed Trayvon. Seems to me that Taaffe’s house is opposite of where GZ lived and the dog path where he killed Trayvon.

      If my theory is true that GZ used NW as a cover-up for burglaries, and his mentoring was actually recruiting and/or meetings with members of the burglary ring, then Burgess was somehow a part of it and most likely to threaten GZ.

      GZ had to do something so he would not appear to be a part of the burglary ring and that meant capturing a burglar — a stranger — someone completely unassociated with his gang of thieves.

      His plan failed as he killed the person who was suppose to be setup. Thus, GZ ran into hiding as soon as he left the police station because after throwing Burgess under the bus, he was vulnerable to retaliation from the others as well.

    • MichelleO says:

      You’re imposing the mind of a grown-up on a minor child. At seventeen, I wouldn’t have been so cooped up, but then again, I didn’t have all of the James Bond type of gadgets that kids have today. Many of them are suffering from diabetes, obesity, and lack of vitamen D. Because of their devotion to 21st century social media/gadgets, which allows them constant contact with friends and relatives as well as instant communication with people all over the world; they have no want to explore the outside world as they play endless video games and upload their favorite music.

  16. whonoze says:

    To believe that GZ fed JohnW6 his story via a phone call before Smith arrived you have to imagine:
    a) GZ was able to think up the details of his tale within a minute or so of the gunshot.
    b) He was willing to allow JonW13 — who he did not know — to overhear the contents of a conspiratorial conversation.
    c) A guy who couldn’t remember the street numbering pattern of his small neighborhood, or the name of the street he was on, had John’s phone number in his head.

    I don’t think so. I doubt he made a connection if he did indeed attempt a call. (In this modern age, I actually get through to a human being on well less than 50% of the calls i attempt. Most of them go to voice mail.) Also, you’d think JonW13 would have mentioned a phone conversation in his interviews if one occurred.

    (If he did try to call someone, I’d guess it was either Shellie or Osterman, both of whom would have reasonably been in his quick contact list.)

    Methinks it FAR more likely that GZ worked out his story on the ride to SPD, and Smith, who was watching GZ’s interview with Singleton, relayed details back to the cops still on the scene.

  17. cielo62 says:

    OOOOH I missed alot because of the Super Bowl! Catching up as quickly as I can! (BTW, My Ravens won. 🙂

  18. rnewton32 says:

    In one of MOM’s many interviews, he said he would not try this case if he is not ready, maybe that is a freudian slip that he knows Fogen is toast and he will try every sneaky tactic to take the back door out of this case and leave Fogen with a public defender.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      How can MOM ever be ready when the all of following is known about gz?
      gz pursued Trayvon from one end of the neighborhood to the other, first by car and then on foot.

      gz had no right to follow Trayvon with a loaded gun and unfounded suspicions of Trayvon who was simply and innocently walking home from the store.

      When he called the police, gz opened up a police investigation which gz then interfered with by getting out of his vehicle and pursuing Trayvon with a loaded gun.

      The evidence does NOT back up gz’s claim of being attacked, punched in the face, and having his head slammed on the pavement…. What the forensic evidence shows is that Trayvon did NONE of those things……….NONE of gz’s blood or DNA was found on Trayvon’s hands.

      GZ did not shoot Trayvon in self defense…….gz told investigator Serino that he had wrist control of Trayvon when he shot Trayvon dead.

      Also, gz lied when he said that Trayvon tried to smother gz with one hand on gz’s nose and the other hand on gz’s mouth. This is a lie because forensics showed that Trayvon had none of gz’s DNA on his hands.

      If gz had been on the bottom, the blood trails from gz’s 2 lacerations would NOT have been running downward as shown in the photos. In fact, that blood would have been SMEARED on the back of gz’s head.

      As LLMPapa pointed out “the justice train is coming for gz” who has a history of being a bully (at CarMax), molester (according to his cousin), a liar, and a thug (see 2005 Facebook @ using his boys).

      In addition, gz had rage issues:

      “Usually he was just a cool guy,” said the former co-worker. “But it was like Jekyll and Hyde. When the dude snapped, he snapped……“He had a temper and he became a liability,” the newspaper quoted the former co-worker as saying. “One time this woman was acting a little out of control. She was drunk. George lost his cool and totally overreacted,” he said. “It was weird, because he was such a cool guy, but he got all nuts. He picked her up and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ankle. Everyone was flipping out.” (NY Daily News – March 29, 2012]

      • Rachael says:

        There is more than that – this shows not only his rage but his propensity to chase down people:

        In September 2003, Zimmerman called police and reported that another motorist spat on him, according to reports, Zimmerman followed the man in his car until the police arrived. Daniel Osmun, the other driver, told police that Zimmerman was tailgating and that he spit his gum out the window “out of frustration.”

        Osum said that Zimmerman then pulled alongside of him, and the two argued. In a police report of the incident, Osum said “at one point, he thought Mr. Zimmerman was going to attack him.” No charges were filed against either man.


      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Yes, Rachael……and from that same link:

        Some of Zimmerman’s neighbors said he had a history of being overly aggressive and followed people whom he thought appeared suspicious back to their homes.

        At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, days after the killing, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” a resident who spoke on the condition of anonymity told HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics” in his neighborhood watch role.

      • Rachael says:

        So it is a pattern of behavior with him. Oh, it worked once when he followed a shop lifter until police came, but my point is, it is still a pattern of behavior nonetheless, and I hope it comes out in court.

    • SearchingMind says:

      I think it means that the Professor has been right all along: “O’Mara [is] Cutting His Losses and Heading for an Exit”. Consider the following scenario: Judge Nelson rejects the motion for continuance O”Mara laments that decision, claims that the court has made it impossible for him to adequately investigate the case , prepare it and present a proper defense at trial and that he as such cannot provide the butcher with effective defense and is `FORCED` to withdraw WITH PAIN IN HS HEART. If Professor is right, O´Mara will be withdrawing as soon as this/next week or in the nearest future.

      But I think O´Mara will hang on to this case until the end. Unlike the Professor, O´Mara is almost ´a nobody´. This case made- and will define O´Mara. How history will judge him is very important to him, more important than the client. If he quits now, he will remain a nobody, considered a wimp and held in disdain by all sides.

      • groans says:

        Would he be ethically allowed to withdraw at this point without the killer’s and/or the court’s consent? I mean, he’s been bragging about working pro bono (I believe), so it seems like it would be hard to use the ol’ wink and nod at the judge that says, “Hey, I ain’t getting paid, and we abolished slavery a few years ago (mostly).”

  19. leander22 says:

    I found myself struggling with a piece of wisdom from US conspiracy lore in this context or resistance against the Lone Gunman Theory I can understand the resistance against it in the case of both Kennedy brother’s and Martin Luther king because the were a political danger in some people’s eyes. Quite obviously all of them challenged the ruling powers one way or another. Last but not least Edgar Hoover who in turn surely was well connected.

    Compare this to the death of John Lennon, which seemingly was shot by a nutcase who wanted a make a woman aware of himself and wanted to get famous. He was deeply influenced by right wing religious circles. it may well have been an accident that John Lennon was observed by the FBI too. The ultimate crowd that killed him were the diverse preachers of hate the “good and righteous”.

    I don’t want to decide on who is right or wrong in this context. I don’t know.

    But strictly as a foreigner watching America very closely post 911 it feels you don’t need a crowd or conspiracy to create these type of killings all you need is a dire economic situation more rigid control of civil rights and the creation of a collective scapegoat “the Arab”, in our case, and you open mental sluices, channels into which the so-called “righteous mindset” can let all it’s frustration and resentment flow that has been more controlled before adding one or the other of their own scapegoats. It’s no surprise that initially the suspicion against Obama was initially he was a closet Muslim, now in the context of the Trayvon Martin case he is the black revolutionary danger.

    So strictly there are many many helpers but they may not be material as real helpers on the ground they are all the people that consider Fogen a hero and that he actually does what has to be done, they may have been on the scene without needing to be instructed by Fogen as material people too, meaning people that saw black and assumed the rest, and it changed what they saw. Without the need of a conspiracy. It may sometimes enough to create a specific mental climate. Here is one voice speaking for YES MANY:

    Right or just random white people. That’s happened before with hoax hate crimes. It’s a lynch mob. This isn’t how we try cases in this country. It was a “cop out” for activists to call for a trial. “This idea that, ‘oh, well we just want a trial,’ well not everything goes to trial, “How about we have a trial on what Chris Matthews’ IQ is? No, that doesn’t fit into what the criminal justice system is designed to address. And if the cops and prosecutor look at a case, look at the evidence, and conclude that they don’t have probable cause for an arrest, there shouldn’t be a trial.

    And this what someone answered to someone I met in conspiracy circles, and whom I respect, he is firmly on Trayvon’s side:

    We even have brotherhood in Gainesville Matt! Maybe we will patrol your neighborhood tonight? LOL!!!! Going for a stroll?

    Vigilantism is a mirror face of the War on Terrorism on home ground. Just as in the War on Drugs there are a select few that profit the rest dies and/or stores frustration and faces insecurity ahead. I am slightly with Dave’s article companying accompanying his Walk with Taaffe in this context. There are people that live well from feeding hate. To distract attention?

    • Malisha says:

      Feeding fear and stirring up hatred has always been the money.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Absolutely. The fear and hate mongering that has gone on since 9-11 is appalling. The bad economy took over where that mess left off . . . people quickly turn on the most vulnerable members of society when they feel insecure.

    • @Bill Taylor:

      Trent Sawyer/State of the Internet produced a video on Youtube which addresses that issue. Trent stated that Fogen did tap on the front porch door of John 6. Please check it out. He has several videos which are very good as well. I hear the tapping too and he also states that John knows more than he is saying.

      • mandelbaum says:

        I agree DGM…… Trent S./SotI has produced several excellent and hysterically funny videos. He’s very dedicated and his theories are more often than not, plausible. I can’t figure out why so few Team Trayvon members view them. I’ve seen every one of them a few times.

  20. tonydphotog says:

    I decided to listen to the 911 call a few times, and I’m convinced that Jeremy knows more than he says.

    I hear these background conversation in the call:

    1:30-1:36 One person says “I have to warn you” and another responds “OK”
    1:43 I hear someone saying “Mark”
    1:57-1:59 One person whispers “Thank You” and another responds “Yeah”

    • seallison says:

      tonydphotog – This exactly what I hear. Either Jeremy is out there, standing at the back porch door, or they are in his house (porch). I especially clearly hear someone saying – Mark.

      • Bill Taylor says:

        i have always wondered if the tapping sounds on the nen call were fogen knocking on the front door of the witness johns house, then after entering the house they both look out the back and spot trayvon, that is how fogen appears out of nowhere as DD described, suddenly the man was back…….nobody would expect the guy from the car to suddenly come out someones back door.

        • racerrodig says:

          That is very possible. If he went through someone’s house that would save Fogen from walking how many hundred feet ?

    • groans says:

      Hmmm…. I heard the “Mark,” but I thought it was the voice of another dispatcher, like at the next desk or something.

  21. Tzar says:

    I am still of the conviction that something much uglier than we know thus far happened that night

    • racerrodig says:

      I agree, as there are far to many loose ends or co-incidences to be just a “…..there’s a suspicious guy….” event.

      • sdunn5 says:

        Racer there was a suspicious guy…really suspicious guy but I digress….Taaffe is not a friend of George’s he did not know him. But when they come with camera’s he wanted in on THAT ACTION so Frank injected himself into it. After seeing the news it is known to some George left a voice mail for FT after he was arrested He said Mr. Taaffe so sorry about his sons death which had been years earlier oops lost another one according to “they” whoever “they” are well that’s an easy one kill another kid of franks quick so i don’t look like a time traveler. At least pee all over the internet with it. Like the long corded phone in jail he has been given way more because it ..never mind another time..I know Trayvon did not cut in between any place entering the complex….it was not in HIS NATURE!!

        • racerrodig says:

          They want you to think they were not friends. Quite the contrary, they let it slip last year they were. The sympathy message Fogen left Taaffe was just a coded way Fogen was saying….help me or I;ll tell the world why your kid offed himself. Fogen knows about the skeletons in Taffee’s closet and was not above spilling them. I’ll bet there are calls between Taaffe and Fogen, Osterman, Smith among others before and after the gunshot.

          • sdunn5 says:

            I believe you are wrong. If you are relying on the ever changing police and discovery documents I think Houston we have a problem.

          • racerrodig says:

            There are interviews from March last year, one of which blushedbrown, posted here within the hour, in which Taaffe says they are friends. I am not wrong on this one at all.

            Taaffe says “…(Fogen) was mad as hell and not going to take it anymore…” He also called Fogen “..the perfect storm…”

            Seriously, this is 11 month old stuff. He admitted he is his friend.

          • sdunn5 says:

            that is your proof I see no reason to continue this you well….sorry you think that validates your beliefs if so I know who you are 11 months now it’s almost 12 you must have been doing this thing long time no? You live in florida right?

          • racerrodig says:

            You’re so far off base it’s a joke. I live nowhere near FL. You are now expecting everyone here to discount every interview by how may people ?? Are you kidding me. You sound like one of those on HP that says we just listen to the left wing radicals and the left media. Really ??

            Have you actually listened to any of the interviews by any of these people ?? I doubt it !!

          • sdunn5 says:

            I think I am spot on.

          • racerrodig says:

            You’re so far off it’sd a joke. Listen to his interviews then head back to the Treehouse as someone else her pointed out. The jig is up !!

          • sdunn5 says:

            You appear hostile.

          • racerrodig says:

            Wrong again, It’s you who started this, I’m just responding.
            Your prose is so familiar from HP it’s comiocal….haw many socks did you have there and why are you here. I’d say it’s only a matter of time.

          • sdunn5 says:

            Sorry dude I cant decode your gibberish I even tried Martian but it was rejected.

          • racerrodig says:

            Thanks, you just admitted to Zidiocy….have a nice life.

          • sdunn5 says:

            why are you responding and baiting me from all sorts of previous threads

          • racerrodig says:

            I didn’t bait you, you gave yourself away and somebody here earlier todfay picked up on it. YOU gave YOURSELF away.

          • sdunn5 says:

            good try no cigar you understand I am getting bored with you right?

          • racerrodig says:

            You’re the perverted one who stated Taaffe and Fogen weren’t friends and when I posted quotes of his, then blushedbrown poasted the actual interview, YOU singled me out for personal attacks. Bored….no, it’s a perverted game to you.

            You made statements only a bunch of Zidiot sock puppetsd made before. It’s you has issues and is boring noit to mention ignorant of the facts. You’re busted and the more you talk the more everyone see’s that you are in fact a diehard mewmber of the Zidiopty Nationm….yes a term I coined…Problem with that ??

            What, you don’t like the lyric rfewrites I do about Fogen. It’s youi who sounds like Fogen or one of his posse…..

          • sdunn5 says:

            perverted I said perverted I think you LIE!! Did you not understand when I responded to you with stop writing as if replying to me knock it off douche bag

          • racerrodig says:

            Yep…keep showing your colors.

          • cielo62 says:

            Racerrodig~ I’ve thought the same about sdunn5.. Last times she posted, she was incredibly rude to many here, PLUS bringing up no salient points. I take it back, she accused Pirhanamom as being a GZ supporter! She has been trolling off and on for some time.

          • racerrodig says:

            That dumb ass asked me, of all people with my stance, if I was George. However, it’s all moot now as the Professor banned he, / she / it.

          • cielo62 says:

            Ah sdunn5! You have returned with your rude self! THIS “relationship” with GZ and Taafe has been verified over numerous interviews and by self admission. What is maybe happening is that Taafe isn’t drunk enough to NOT see the writing on the wall, and has decided to throw GZ under the bus.

    • truthseeker66 says:

      Worst than murder??

      • sdunn5 says:

        Tzar sorry for stepping up to comment because I give clues but not a nibble so I thought I would see if at least 1 would come back with a reasonable response it’s my little experiment. but must say truthseeker66 worst then murder murder 2 well….yes murder 1…but what could be worse then murder…..more then 1 murder or a conspiracy to commit murder you decide.

      • sdunn5 says:

        Tzar…On any given Sunday!!!!

      • Tzar says:

        murder 1 with conspiracy by racist smarmy self-righteous jingoists

    • SearchingMind says:

      A while ago Patricia (aka PiranhaMom) theorized that underneath Trayvon’s murder lies George the butcher’s financial and economic aspirations. Patricia opined that George the butcher and his comrades intended to establish a lucrative (security) firm to protect the RTL and expand into other neighborhoods thereafter. The foundation of this enterprise would be laid by catching and/or killing one of the “coons” and “assholes” that invade and burglarize their homes. This will convince the homeowners association to provide the necessary funds to run and maintain the firm until it becomes profitable and can stand on its own financially. George the butcher and his comrades will become self-employed making tens of thousands of dollars a year in profit and well connected to the top defense- and security brass-, powers that be in Florida. (see Professor’s thread of January 8, 2013: Featuring: Piranha Mom’s New Theory About Defendant’s Motive for Killing Trayvon).

      Indeed, Tzar, “something much uglier than we know thus far happened that night”. Viewed from Patricia’s periscope, the butcher and his comrades (may have) checked out Trayvon days before his murder, kept him under surveillance, determined that he was the right target, followed him on the day of his murder from his home to the 7-11 store and back, cornered, caught and immobilized him while he begged for his life and struggled to escape, drove a single dumb-dumb-bullet to his heart, turned him around with his face slammed into the wet grass and squeezed the last breath out of him as quickly as possible. They did that making sure that there is an official evidence (i.e. the NEN-call) documenting how “George” risked his life patrolling the neighborhood on a dark rainy night when he sported one of those thieves, buglers and home invaders. He called the cops, was attacked and viciously beaten by this bugler and had no choice but to take-out the “fucking coon”.

      But that plan went wrong – because Trayvon was not even close to anything like thug, punk, coon, asshole, drug dealer, etc. and the butcher is not particularly smart. A lot has been covered-up in this case. The much we know are things there are NOwhere to hid. And we hope that that would be enough to secure a solid conviction.

      • Eric says:

        Piranha mom’s theory is even more believable in light of the Feb. 2nd 2012 NEN call that fogen made. The similarities between that call and the call made about Trayvon are chilling to say the least.

      • Rachael says:

        Do you think that is being investigated? I hope so, but somehow kind of doubt it 😦

      • manberk says:

        Anyone else find it totally odd, and creepy, that the NW watch guy was intimately familiar with the security system and cameras? Had the numbers of the security company in his phone, knew which cameras weren’t working, etc. Had communications about finances with members of the board. Where doesnt any of this fall under the conditions of NW? I know I wouldn’t appreciate being spied on by a stranger in my community who didnt have the authority. Clearly simply being the eyes and ears wasnt enough for Fogen Bronson. He thought he was the sheriff.

        • cielo62 says:

          manberk~ all the intimate details that GZ had about the lights,cameras and security just convinces ME that he was running a small time burglary ring. All that info is part of “casing a joint.”

          • racerrodig says:

            Not to mention the fact that he went to every unit with clip board in hand and asked questions about the residents work schedules, visitors, valuables, weapons, what they needed protected the most and whatever else he deemed important. Casing the joint….yep.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Just so, I note that nowhere in the mix does it appear that he advocated getting the cameras fixed and up and operating, he just notes that they’re not working, gets the “fix by date” which is probably never, given the financial woes of the HOA, and he moves on. While someone trying to see the neighborhood kept safe, would have been taking up a collection to get them turned back on or put up more.

      • SearchingMind says:

        I think Patricia´s theory is very good for intellectual exercise. Beyond that, I do not think the cops would be investigating in that direction because of the super speculative nature of it and the fact that the trail has gone cold long ago. Even if the cops were to start now to investigate in that direction, the individuals involved are not going to talk and the cops will definitely not be able to obtain a warrant to bug their telephones and/or homes.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Manberk — Yes, Fogen didn’t seem to know names of streets in his own small neighborhood, yet was quite on top of what camera equipment (conveniently as it turns out) wasn’t working.

      • sdunn5 says:

        I respectfully disagree. and I did not say it was George waiting for him as to Trayvon’s apprehension. And It was a HOLLOW POINT bullet what is up with dumb dumb. Who is the butcher? Since the shooter is george who is the person with a butcher knife. I may as well say right now the flipping him thing huh perhaps he was looking for the bullet casing hmm that sounds more reasonable then the squeeze the life thing since Trayvon was dead when he hit the ground….any questions?????

        • cielo62 says:

          sdunn5~ WHO said ANYTHING about a BUTCHER KNIFE? Once again, I must say your reading comprehension is below the level of a 5th grader. A “butcher” is someone who kills with no emotions. Hence,  “George the butcher” MEANS that GZ killed without emotion or remorse.   Understand, or do you need further practice?

    • Malisha says:

      I agree with you Tzar. That is one of the reasons that there was SOOOOOOO much resistance to charging Fogen with a crime. Had they charged him with involuntary manslaughter there would not have been the uprising; they couldn’t charge him with ANYTHING because he knew where the bodies were buried.

  22. Kelly Payne says:

    It’s experiment time. With the help of a neighbor of mine, who is exactly the same height and weight as trayvon and the exact same build.I have just proven Trayvon never slammed Zimmerscum’s head on the sidewalk. I’m the same weight and height as zimmerscum. I laid on the ground with a cushion under my head of course and relaxed all my musles as if I was unconscious. It was impossible for him to slammed my head on the ground I don’t have much hair and the ears would slip out of his hands because they would bend. then I had him try to slam my head on the ground while I tried to get up. I was able to raise up and knock him off of me. the only way trayvon would have slammed his head against a concrete surface and do some damage is If zimmerscum was was groggy and was leaning against a concrete wall and trayvon had grabbed the collar of his shirt and yanked it toward himself and then pushed against the wall using his collar almost like a sling shot.. Thank god for pillows because I would have been in trouble. Experiment 2. I’ve done this before but certain people cant seem to get a clue.I had this kid sit on me and punch me in the face wearing his brothers boxing gloves I asked him if he could see the toy gun at my waistband near my hip, he said no he was sitting on it.Then I asked him to try to take it with out getting up he couldn’t. I then asked him to continue to punch me in the face while I tried to get the gun but I couldn’t get because he was in the way. Then I grabbed his arms stopping the punching while still holding his arms while he was trying to pull away I rolled my body while still holding his arms and knocked him off of me I let go grabbed the toy gun grabbed him by his shirt and pointed it at his chest like I was going to shoot. I have just proven Zimmerman could have handled the situation without killing him. I have also proven that he would not have been able to grab his gun without knocking trayvon off. HIS HEAD WAS NEVER SLAMMED INTO THE SIDEWALK.TRAYVON WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO IT IN THE WAY HE DESCRIBED.

    • racerrodig says:

      Quite a few times, myself and friends on mine tried to duplicate what Fogen said happened. It is impossible, flat out, plain & simple.
      With someone on your chest as he says, one cannot draw a pistol and fire it. You cannot get the pistol out at all.

      The head bashing, the same thing….none of us could do it.

      Surprisingly, I guess we all have to conclude “He Lied”

      Now why would a “Role Model” like that, a “Decent American” need to lie about that???????????????????????????? Hmmmmm !!

      • PYorck says:

        This is really what seals it for me.

        I do not know exactly what happened that night. Much of our speculation will turn out to be wrong. However I am absolutely certain that GZ lied about it – multiple times and about multiple aspects.

        In theory it may be possible that he lied unnecessarily, but in his current situation that would make him the dumbest idiot on God’s green earth.

        • racerrodig says:

          His stories are so far fetched when one takes just a minute to think about them. His story about being pinned, then he had a wrist lock, then his head was bashed, then….then….then…..

          Trayvon could not have even seen his gun. Trayvon had debris imbedded in the back of his clothes whereas Fogen does not. Fogen’s boot tips are soaked and have grass on them. I guess he really never figured he’d have anyone thing Trayvon was not disposable.

      • SearchingMind says:


        The chance that George the Butcher lied unnecessarily is as good as ‘nihil’ – considering where Trayvon’s body lay, the location of the shell casing, the trajectory of the bullet, the forensic evidence, the nature of the injury sustained, etc. George the butcher knew from the beginning that he committed murder and needed to have a story really quick. I believe he did not lie unnecessarily. His lies were necessary to save him from the dungeon.

        • racerrodig says:

          ” I believe he did not lie unnecessarily. His lies were necessary to save him from the dungeon.”

          Remember trying to apply logic to an illogical mind is well, illogical.
          What we call unnecessary Fogen deems mandatory. However, he had an agenda and and when his story folded, his pathological lying became more obvious.

          We all expect when someone gets into a jam, they will twist things, but this resulted in a completely meaningless death.

    • towerflower says:

      I did the second experiment also, To sit up far enough on a person to hit them in the face you wouldn’t see the gun much less try to get it and it you moved further down to see and reach the gun, you couldn’t reach the person’s face.

      The other thing I couldn’t duplicate is the shot. I haven’t figured out he could have done a straight in (no angle) shot in his position.

    • sdunn5 says:

      Kelly Payne wow oh wow I am concerned for you and the kid. Are you a man or a woman? Doesn’t matter still that is the most outrageous thing I have seen written here…sort of. Listen if you like getting punched in the face so much I’m your girl. I would love to punch you repeatedly and assist you in your RESEARCH AND OR EXPERIMENT. But tell me where to come and I will be there…in the spirit of research but you got to give me the kid as I need to assist him in getting some protection. Do you have Child Protective Services in your RURAL AREA? So lets get the kid to safety then GAME ON!!!

    • Xena says:

      In the Dooley case, Dooley alleged that David James saw and went for his gun. Dooley testified that he believed if James got to the gun first, that James would have killed him.

      The jury found Dooley guilty as charged for manslaughter. For one, they found that Dooley was the aggressor (he left out of his driveway/garage with a loaded gun and went to the basketball court where James was). Two, they found that if James did go for the gun, he had the right to, because he saw Dooley as a threat.

      The jury’s decision in that case must have GZ shaking in his socks.

      • roderick2012 says:

        “The jury’s decision in that case must have GZ shaking in his socks.”

        Your comparing apples and oranges.

        There were eyewitnesses to the Dooley incident but I believe that the testimony of all of the eyewitnesses to Trayvon’s shooting will easily be negated on cross-examination given the time of day and weather conditions so that will leave forensic evidence and don’t forget the possibilty of jury nullification.

        All it takes is one juror to hold out to get a hung jury and I doubt that the State of FL will attempt to try George again.

        • Xena says:


          Your comparing apples and oranges.

          I respectfully disagree. The facts are applied to the law.

          There were eyewitnesses to the Dooley incident but I believe that the testimony of all of the eyewitnesses to Trayvon’s shooting will easily be negated on cross-examination given the time of day and weather conditions so that will leave forensic evidence and don’t forget the possibilty of jury nullification.

          The best witness is GZ’s case is himself. When asked “Are you following him?” GZ answered “Yeah.” First and foremost, like in the Dooley case, this makes GZ the aggressor.

          Like Dooley, GZ claimed that he “felt” Trayvon was going for his gun and had he taken it, he would have killed him. In GZ’s case, this might be considered by the jury in several ways, the first one being that GZ’s story is false so that part is also false.

          All it takes is one juror to hold out to get a hung jury and I doubt that the State of FL will attempt to try George again.

          My focus is not on the what-if’s. Effectively, there are no obstacles in this case when applying the facts to the law.

          • roderick2012 says:

            “Effectively, there are no obstacles in this case when applying the facts to the law.”

            There obstacles and they are called the jury.

            I am sure that is what the prosecutors in the Casey Anthony case thought also.

          • Xena says:


            There obstacles and they are called the jury.

            I am sure that the State will interview and even hire professionals to do the best they can to weed out jury members who are not objective. That applies to both sides.

            <blockquote? I am sure that is what the prosecutors in the Casey Anthony case thought also.

            I didn’t follow the Anthony case, but remember when a member of the jury was interviewed afterwards, he said that the State failed to prove that Anthony killed her child. Anthony plead not guilty. GZ admitted to killing Trayvon.

          • roderick2012 says:

            Xena, it only takes one juror who believes in juror nullification to get a hung jury and I doubt that the State will want to waste resources trying George again.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            My focus is not on the what-if’s. Effectively, there are no obstacles in this case when applying the facts to the law.

            Right you are Xena. The law raises a barrier that GZ cannot get around or jump over with excuses.

            The law, given the situation, bars GZ from both bringing his gun to the scene of the killing AND claiming self defense on account of their being a gun there, that he feared his opponent might use.

            The law is fashioned that way, to exclude self defense claims, where an armed person would only have to get close enough to an unarmed person, to claim that the unarmed person could reach his gun.

            Thus, even with SYG laws, if you are armed you have no recourse but to retreat from an unarmed person. Obviously, if an unarmed person can’t reach you, they cannot harm you, but an armed person can still defend them-self from a distance.

            This is why GZ’s holding of Trayvon by the clothing is so damning. He can’t be both armed and struggling for control of his own weapon, while devoting one hand to holding the weapon, and the other hand holding his clothes. Leaving no hands for any defensive action.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr

            The law is fashioned that way, to exclude self defense claims, where an armed person would only have to get close enough to an unarmed person, to claim that the unarmed person could reach his gun.


      • Malisha says:

        Did he pay for those socks?

    • Mike says:

      something that i tried from forgens tale was putting one hand over my mouth and one hand over my nose,only to discover that it only took one hand to do that not two.when i tried with two hands i just end up covering my eyes.

      • sdunn5 says:

        Mike Mike Mike you need some sleep I am in Hawaii the only person outside of Florida who has any interest in bozo but it is almost 3am there right …it is showing. Are you guys doing shift work. Sucks to not be paid right? Imagine that. Life is a bitch tell me MIKE explain it to me what was in the george’s knucklehead when he was arrested for Murder2 and had a shiny new improved cop killer gun with 2 full magazines and a chambered round. Now try to give me an answer on that would ya or smother yourself till you see the light.or continue with playing Peek-a-boo!!

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      I’ve practiced judo for years. GZ’s story and John’s story about the groundfight are impossible. When you are lighter you can’t keep someone down by sitting on them in a straddled position and hitting them in the face at the same time.
      John also describes them as moving to the sidewalk with Trayvon still on top. That is impossible.
      I hope the prosecution will have a martial arts expert as a rebuttal witness.

      When your brain is focussed on a task, such as stopping a person from getting a gun, unholstering the gun yourself, aiming while making sure your hand is not in the way and shooting, you stop screaming. You can’t perform those two tasks at the same time.
      You can test that too.

  23. colin black says:

    PS @Ladysaintclair The abobe post was an answer to your question about what could have foggen

    Wanted posted out of State RAPIDIO
    And j ust an opion of mine I have no proff other than a feeling

    That the sinnermens family dynamics were more incined to the Munsters than The Brady Bunch.

    Also all that weird kissing fondling stuff with not only his cousin.
    But also another female family member allegedly whom the cousin says will never talk off it.

    Some speculate its his Sis the one he sends his boys to swoop round an sort out a little something for her.
    An there there before he even hangs up the phone.
    Thease probably the same chumps whom ended up getting pinched an kept there traps shut an done a year .

    Thing is read his myspace or whatever the fluck it is thease people he talks about turnin up on bikes before he get of the phone with sis on bikes.

    he is talking aboutt kids on bmx an mountain bikes frakin kids.
    Anhe must be what 21 22 an he ir runnin a gang of kids.

    Probably the same eejits that done time for him.

    Anyway as others have mentioned .

    The phone calls between him an his sis whilst he was locked up in county jail before he bonded out

    Wher weird an inapropriate to the max

    At times I thought I was listening to lovers an not brother an sis.

    An thats my point they are not related

    An if they are three cousins rather than bio bro an sis
    An we know he has no problems going after cousins .

    An we also know he was atracted to pre pubecent girls.
    Admititly he was also pre pubesent if the cousin allegations are true.
    But his atraction to younger girls could have persisted even as he grew an matured.

    Thats what I base my theory on .

    That there may have been a shitload of nastys to post out if state
    When this happened imagine if thousands an thousands of peodphia type materials images even tradring buisness shareing sites for proffits.
    Mind you I doubt that foggen doesnt seem to have a buisness bone in his anatomy/
    Plenty perverted ones though m o o.

  24. Mike says:

    Also think I heard him ask for a black&mild I can’t say that I agree with the posters views on the case but it is the only one with sound that I could find

    • Rachael says:

      I can’t hear it, too much noise, but if he did, so what, shoot him? He obviously looked young enough the clerk ID’d him. I know my son was pulling that shit at his age, 17, and not getting carded because with his full beard, he looked 25. Teens try to buy tobacco. I guss that makes them thugs, needing to be shot. Thank goodness my son is over 18 now, no beard, no dreads, and quit smoking.

      • Mike says:

        So true I use to do the same thing at his age but I didn’t look as young as trayvon at his age I had a full beard at his age.

      • Rachael says:

        Then I think we can agree then that there is nothing spectacularly sinister about a 17-year-old trying to purchase a tobacco product. I’m not saying it is right, I’m not saying it’s good, I do not advocate it, but it is not an atypical action for a teen. Stores selling tobacco to minors get fined, some even lose their tobacco license for a period of time. The clerk probably gets fired but not shot, and we certainly do not demonize and shoot the teen who bought it.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Mike, above SDunn5 is telling you that whatever you hear on that 7-11 tape is NOT part of the original tape but embedded by someone who wants to thugify Trayvon. I am wondering if you considered that she might be right?

  25. Mike says:

    I was just over on YouTube watching the 711 video and you can hear Martin say I don’t have an ID as he reaches into his pockets to pull out his money.not that that means anything but was wondering if anyone else here notice it.

    • sdunn5 says:

      Hello Mike it’s me Sheila with the answer. If you hear that it is a lie. You are watching a spammed YouTube video. I have noticed over time many changes in evidence….police reports…swapped out audio photo manipulation (sadly not professional or creative)…. I just do not understand ya Mike is this your first rodeo?

      Why do you not see through the highly darkened video and see what is really going in 7-11..?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Trayvon is in that store for a very short amount of time ..Mike…but Trayvon is showing you the real deal of what is going on …PAY ATTENTION MIKE!! Stop looking for shadows he is talking to you Mike he is showing you ………..no he was not trying to buy something that he needed an ID for………..he has head phones on the hoodie has them concealed…but he is apprehensive …….does he not look apprehensive MIKE? Yes he really does he looks back to the door as he is paying for his stuff he looks to the window and guess what Mike …..as he starts to walk towards the door,,, never being out of camera view …he turns around walks back up the aisle on camera Mike..leans over like hew is picking something up as he looks to his right….Pay attention to him MIKE he is begging you to see his despair…. not for a dope deal k Mike for an escape got it? Trayvon is a good kid and not street-wise he is long and lanky but he has distress signals all over his behavior OK Mike? Can you see him Mike can you feel his distress he will not walk back the way he came in because Mike…he needs you to see his fear and panic….he is crying sobbing for you to see him…not as a punch line Mike.

      Mike he needs you to know he was scared and trying to get away from those SHADOWS waiting for him…can you imagine after just turning 17 a kid that dares to go to a school dance in a powder blue tuxedo..corsage.. glasses…..and it is not the 70’s???? He is a stranger in a strange and dangerous land Mike. Can you feel his heart beating 150 beats a minute scared what is happening to me…..Damn it Mike had you been there he is sobbing hear me please.. My name is Trayvon Benjamin Martin please Mike I need your help I am alone in the dark running I see him again he…. has… a …GUN…. he…….oh my God…….

      • Mike says:

        @sdunn5, well i never heard the 711 tape with the sound to it and was wondring if anyone else heard it like i did.IMO even if the sound on the tape is real it realy dosnt mean a thing.

        • sdunn5 says:

          Did you read my post to you Mike? The audio is of no consequence. Then again audio from months ago have changed. I fail to understand why you are focusing on these claims by extraordinarily ignorant z posters. I mean those are their claims right. I thought you would be able to see my post as it was very specific about Trayvon Martin. In another post by you you thought you heard him ask for a black and mild. Why are doing this does his stalkers hold no interest for you? Black and Milds come on now this is too much work for me. Let me know if you sprout a clue. Your interest in this case seems obvious. MO or OM and all the j’s get the picture?

      • SearchingMind says:


        You expressed exactly what I have been thinking ever since I watched that 7-11 video. Indeed Trayvon appeared apprehensive and almost reluctant to leave the store. I know (intuitively) that he knew he was being followed even before he entered the 7-11. I think Trayvon most probably assumed that Fogen the butcher was a sexual predator (the type that drive/walk around getting creepy with juveniles/young men expecting sex), not a killer. That’s why he did everything possible to avoid him, including running away, but saw no reason (yet) to call 911 (as the butcher was still in his car when “he lost him”).

    • manberk says:

      This is an interesting point. The people who most suggest the 7-11 video, what TM looked like there, and what he bought suggest somehow he’s a thug who should be looked at as a adult rather than a baby face figment of the MSM. Note in their story TM gets turned DOWN “trying to buy a cigar”. Meaning of course, this person saw TM as he was. A minor. Game set match.

  26. colin black says:

    . What else could he have been mailing out of state that would cost so much money to have it shipped?

    Thumbdrives full off sick perverted stuff.
    Ditto Hard Drives,,

    As above various Lap tops minust the hard drives ect.
    Send seprate to minimise risk of disscovery.

    So sick shit sent out of fo state
    Urgent an as two x delivery an posting the Lap Tops .
    An the thumb drives disc drives and any clones ect.
    Explains the expence plus you would want tracking an insurance on those packages wich is even more spoundoulas.

    All of above is just the type of ridiculas theorys I come up with.

    An if they beare any resemblence to certain fat bastards

    Real or imagined whom perhaps have been known

    Toexecute a child for walking leeehsurellay.

    An not looking like a hard core mail collecter.
    An not knowing the proper proceadure for passing out a deck of cards.
    Not knowing what his deal is.

    Foggen did though
    foggen knew exactly what his deal was going to be.

    Ace Off Spades.
    Because in foggens mind walking around .
    That night for what ever reason he had decided to deal
    Trayvon the dead mans /childs card.
    The Ace Of Spades.

    • esentrick says:

      great song! Lemmy plays a mean harmonica (a lost art)…Thanks Colin for the Post!

      • racerrodig says:

        Maybe Taaffe saw Fogen traipsing down the sidewalk with a 56 or 60 inch flat screen TV. Does anyone know how much it cost to ship one. Fogen would have to pack it very carefully and all.

  27. Judy75201 says:

    Without a daily thread, don’t know where to put this. “Nettles” at the treehouse has taken note of you, Fred, lol. Don’t know how to send a screen-shot here.

  28. kimmi says:

    Two sides to a story says:
    “It is interesting that Fogen had the first neighbor on the scene call his wife. Why did he not call Shellie?”

    IMO, Fogen either called daddy, or an ‘officer’ as he said in the Hannity interview. Papa showed that in one of his video’s, if it wasn’t for him, I would have totally missed that ‘tidbit!’

    One thing that I would LOVE to see is Fogen’s phone records…
    I think those will be very interesting and quite telling as well.

    • Eric says:

      How would the neighbor call his wife? I believe that neighbor claimed not know GZ. Another example of the witnesses lying for GZ.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Fogen says he asked the neighbor to call his wife. The neighbor reports the same thing.

      • MichelleO says:

        I find it absolutely hair-raising that a person would fulfill a murderer’s request, and make a personal phone call for him. Absolutely chilling and mind boggling.

        • racerrodig says:

          Don’t call 911 and get an ambulance here….wait, call my wife and tell her about my confirmed kill. Quite literally, that’s what he did.

    • Malisha says:

      According to the Hannity interview, Fogen had called the officer BEFORE shooting Trayvon Martin. I believe he called someone ELSE (not the officer and not Shellie) afterwards.

      • kimmi says:

        Thanks for the correction, I thought it was after, since he was on the phone with NEN before, so I guess I just thought it was after, not before. Thanks for clarifying that.

        Wow, it will be interesting to find out which officer it was. My guess would be Tim Smith. I sure hope FDLE or FBI cleans up this whole mess after this, as it is beyond ridiculous already.

    • manberk says:

      In Joes pic it looks like Fogen was already on the phone, which Joe also says. So thats probably the reason he couldnt call Shel. His hide was the priority, which says a lot.

      Theres an exchange on Hannity when Foggy says he was waiting on RVC for cop, and thats why he didnt immediately go back to his truck (which is also the point when he told Serino he was needed light to return). That may be the reference to the possibility he was referring to AMMO etc.

  29. Faith854 says:

    These acts by neighbors or the defendent is evil and would be heart breaking to anyone’s parents.

  30. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I just reread this great article by our prof:


    • Trained Observer says:

      Holy smokes. This (now updated) posting was from before my time. Had always known Angela Corey didn’t come in with Murder2 because evidence was weak or wishy-washy. But this … wow.

      Many thanks for reposting, YAHTC, and, of course, to the professor for laying it out so clearly.

    • kimmi says:

      Wow. What an awesome article Professor.
      That was before my time, but just as spot on as usual! I would likey want to stay with the lessor charge (2nd degree), just because it would probably be easier to prove and the sentence could still be the same, life in prision. I say go for the more sure bet of second degree, although hopefully without any chance of parole, but jmo.

  31. colin black says:

    Two sides to a story says:

    February 3, 2013 at 4:29 pm

    The pro-Fogen supporters who feel that n***** had it coming need a good mind cleansing. Truly disgusting.

    No they dont ..
    Its impossable to cleanse a mind set along those thought prosesses .
    You cant even call it an idealoligy.

    Thease types of intolarate people an its not just the type The state of the internet taped that guy sayig Trayvon needed shooting.


    Its Prodestants Murdering Cathlics in bombings an shootings .An Palstinians hateing Isreal an vice verca.

    Its just some people are so insicure an frightened of themselfss .
    An there own preceived lack of self worth faIlures In life in love in buisness.

    Rather than look with in an face some home truths .
    That perhaps you are the one at fault.

    They lash out an project blame others for there woes.

    ts not there fault they can find employment..Its all them Eastern Uropeans comeng over working for cut price wages.

    There wifes leave them but its not there fault she would never
    Shut up ,
    Backhanders the onlyway to make them silly cows show you your deserved respect,
    Better of without them anyway I aint got an attatude itsv them flippin tarts,,,
    Hate hate an more hate drips from every pore ot thease type of people.

    An truth be told they desrve no ones respect .
    Not even ther own as they hate anloathe themselfs.

    They deserve our pity as they are in actuall fact liveing in constant fear of fear its self.

    And thats Sad all thease things racialists or intollarant bigoted people profess to hate with a passion.

    African Americans whatever creed or lifestyle disgusts them.

    In actuality they are letting this thing they find distastefull.
    Dictate there life .
    For instance you got the entire new black panther army hate the white eyed devils.
    All 3 of them unanimous about that.

    An yet all they ever do is yap on an an on about thease people they cant stand.

    Well if thats so S T F U about them already.

    Exact same thing oppisite but the same.

    K K K also go on an on an on about how much thet hate people with darker skin than they an hold torchlight rallies an burn crosses an in genral.
    Devote more time an effort energy convinceing each other how much they hate.
    They indulge in there hate .
    More so than time spent with there familys letting them know how much the care and love an cherish them.

    So to summmerise I M O
    Any one whom has to spread hatefull agendas to cover up there own unhappy or inadiuite life desrves to be pity.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Very eloquent, Colin. Of course mean people are suffering. And some Fogen supporters are not racists, per se; they simply feel it’s okay to shoot someone whom they think is a thug. *sigh*

      May all beings be free from suffering.

  32. Jun says:

    I feel w6 was threatened and I feel he will reveal that during trial, and he may have even revealed it during deposition

    Hell he may even reveal it when Omara asks him for personal witness information for identification

  33. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    One of our Trayvon team members (who works as a security guard) wrote this today on the MSNBC site:


    1. Did zimmerman work for Twin Lakes condos?
    A. No.
    Why does it matter?
    A. Because Martin was on private property and a legal guest of a resident there, so zimmerman had no reason to question his presence there or find it suspect.
    2. If zimmerman did want to know about Martin’s status on the property, what could he have done?
    A. He could have driven over to the on-site manager’s residence and compelled him to return with him and ask Martin to identify himself as he would for working with the management. Or wait for the police.
    3. Did zimmerman have a contract to do security for Twin Lakes condos?
    A. NO…….so he had no legal grounds to stop/block/ follow/ track/ interact/ intercept/ any one of any color he would have seen that night.
    4. If zimmerman was so worried about suspicious males who happen to be black what could he do?
    A. Go to his monthly residents’ meeting and request that a full time security company be hired to patrol the complex or suggest that the condo association secure the gated community so that access card and controlled gateways would be established 24/7.
    5. What would the cops had done if they had shown up before zimmerman killed Martin.
    A.Because the police are government agents, and once they found out that Martin was a guest on that private property and there is NO GUEST policy or procedure that identifies, who , what , when and how a guest can move about the property…. then they can leave.
    The police would also have noted the fact that zimmerman had NOT witnessed Martin committing a crime and also that martin had NOT committed a Twin Lakes condo rule violation, the police would have left forthwith because their power would be voided at that point.
    6. What time do most residential burglaries occur?
    A. Not at 7 pm on a Sunday night where families return from weekend trips or families that have kids getting ready to get back to school on Monday. Most occur either late at night where most people are sleeping or early afternoon when most people are at work.
    So by asking the right questions, it is very clear that, Martin didn’t have a problem minding his own business but zimmerman did. And thus, it’s fair to conclude that zimmerman did have a problem fighting his own insecurities about minorities and his inability to do anything about it legally.

  34. Judy75201 says:

    I wonder how much more mental strain fogen can take. I don’t expect much more at all, if he has not already turned into a puddle of piss.

    • jm says:

      Judy75201 says: “I wonder how much more mental strain fogen can take. I don’t expect much more at all, if he has not already turned into a puddle of piss.’

      I think ample servings of junk food and adult beverages plus psychiatric drugs are keeping GZ from having mental strain. Can’t wait to see him in court Tuesday.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Under terms of his parole, I don’t think Fogen’s allowed to imbibe any form of booze. (But the way things are going, he might be tempted to drink the Kool-Aid. )

  35. esentrick says:


  36. blushedbrown says:


    I think it expired do you mind sending another invite I will post the introduction page.

  37. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I don’t understand the gunshot’s audio effect on on Witness 11’s 911 call.

    She said she heard a pop…not the sound of gunfire she heard in the movies.

    Why don’t we hear a pop? To me it sounds like the gunfire you hear “in the movies”.

    Does a sound track change the sound?

  38. ladystclaire says:

    The bottom line here is the fact that Fogen stalked, tormented and murdered an innocent 17 yr old kid and, it’s time for him to stop lying and own up to what he did. and if there were others involved in alerting him of Trayvon’s presence, as well as lying to protect his fat lazy ass then they should be held accountable as well.

    IMO that complex was not all that and, there were more renters than owners in the first place. and of those who rented there, Fogen and spouse was among them. as a matter of fact, he was probably looking at being tossed out on his fat behind for being behind in his rent.

    Fogen had a *MULTITUDE* of debts and, IMO it would not have been beneath him to have been the one stealing from his own neighbors in order to sell the goods out of state.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I have a multitude of debts and I don’t think about stealing from the neighbors . . .

      • MichelleO says:

        Is this about you? Would Fogen be the first to have debts that drove him to steal, cheat, lie, or even murder?

        • racerrodig says:

          Well, he sure isn’t the first, but all of the garbage that surrounds this case is off the scale with bizarre. I can’t fathom he would think that he’d be the hero in some huge way and be lauded with riches and the keys to the city. Then again, he’s so off the wall, maybe that’s exactly what he thought.

          • I just banned SDunn5.

            I apologize to you personally for not doing this earlier because I see you have dealt with most of the bullshit.

            I think someone hacked her account. I’m picking up a different IP address from the troll.

          • racerrodig says:

            Thank you and I believe you handled it well and promptly. I’m used to the Zidiot attacks like that from HP which this one was saying things verbatim from his sock puppet account there.

            I tried to get it to commit to being a Zidiot and sure enough it did. After that it was Game – Set – Match. It relegated itself to name calling and here of all places.

            I tried to adhere to your guidelines but at one point imagined a “I banned racerrodig today for standing his ground” comment.

            It called me George for crying out loud…..them’s fightin’ words in my neck of the woods.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Bye Bye Smeagol, I mean Sdunn


          • racerrodig says:

            As we say in real life…..go away….and stay away.

    • @ladystclaire:
      “Own up to what he did??” This man couldn’t tell the truth if if meant they would reduce his sentence! He will never divulge the fact that he had conspired with others to confront Tray, and interrogate him about the break-ins. The only way we will find out the truth is in a court of law when he is cross examined about his phone calls.

      Fogen was not only a renter, but his dad paid the rent for him! I made sure to call him and his wife lazy and trifling over on the HP website! LOL! Who has their dad paying their rent/mortgage at age 28 and 27 and even then, he was behind in his rent! Can you imagine if these two cretins had any children?? What is wrong with Fogenhats and his wife? I know he is mentally unstable but what else is “wrong” with him? When you look into his eyes, is their something wrong there cognitively? Developmentally? I really think their is.

  39. Dave says:

    I don’t doubt that the killer had a very bad attitude toward Black people in general or that this attitude was shared by others in the community but I still don’t see why a group of them would target this one specific individual.

    • blushedbrown says:


      You have mail. 🙂

    • ladystclaire says:

      They didn’t just target this one person, Trayvon just happened to be the one at that time on a dark and rainy night, when there was hardly anyone else outside. it could have been any young black male walking through their neighborhood but, it just so happens that it was Trayvon walking through at that time.

      • Trained Observer says:

        There you have it, ladystclaire, Trayvon was boldly Strollin in the Rain, a suspicious move for sure! Had he been loudly Singin in the Rain like Gene Kelly, Fogen and his pals would have been ready for a lynching. And to think, these fools may well be done in by a girl on the phone with Trayvon, one who truly will be a linch-pin witness.

      • lurker says:

        I believe that what you suggest is closer to the truth. There were some break-ins, or one, anyway. There was a bunch of generalizing about the threat from outside–Z. talked about the outsiders coming in the back way, learning their way around and developing an ability to disappear before police arrived. If you recall the beginning of his statements, he always started out with a description of how he called police and Taafe’s home was found to have a open window and unlocked front door. This doesn’t say anyone took advantage of these. However, in Z’s mind this became blown into a justification of some kind–for Trayvon’s presumed “suspicious” appearance, for calling the police.

        And while I am willing to believe that there was colllusion after the fact as word spread neighbor to neighbor of how George took a pounding and had to defend himself, I don’t think that there was much in the way of planning ahead of time. I do believe that George was simply walking around in his own fantasy–pumped up by the title of block watch captain (and btw–the notion of “going out on watch” like a security patrol is unlike any legit blockwatch I have ever encountered)–and utterly incapable of conceiving of a black kid in a hoodie as being anything BUT a thug bent on crime and sadly found out that real people in the real world are of quite a different sort. They bleed and die when shot, they have families and the families expect justice and hire lawyers.

        Sad way to grow up.

      • Xena says:

        Because GZ packed up and ran off after the leaving the police station in the wee hours of the morning of 2/27/12, it appeared that he was running from a live person — someone he knows — someone who had threatened him. I associated GZ’s fear with Burgess and using NW as a cover-up for crime. Someone else was suppose to take the fall for Burgess.

        Lonnie Starr has posted comments concerning Burgess. When I read them, I can see an association although it’s not clear. There’s some bad blood between those two.

        Now, I wonder too if it was Burgess who served at GZ’s (non) graduation party that GZ refused to pay?

        • Burgess was in jail on Feb. 26th and 27th.

          • Xena says:

            Right, and Lonnie Starr said something to the effect about Burgess had violated parole. My thoughts are along the line that Burgess was questioned for being near Taaffe’s house and he didn’t want to go down for anything to do with that. That in fact, nothing was reported stolen and there was no forced entry.

            There’s just some association between Burgess and GZ that stays with me. No matter what Osterman says, I don’t believe for a second that GZ abandoned his home so soon out of fear of retaliation for killing Trayvon.

          • Burgess was on juvenile court probation when he was busted on February 2nd. He was kept in jail pending a revocation hearing and juvenile court declined jurisdiction because he had turned 18. He was prosecuted in adult court.

            According to the docket, he was continually in custody from February 2nd until sometime in the summer or later, IIRC.

            The defendant would have known Burgess was in jail.

          • Xena says:

            Not long ago, Lonnie Starr threw out a suggestion that Burgess may have been a snitch to police. If Lonnie reads this, maybe he will post that again.

    • Malisha says:

      Fogen had to make his heroic capture that evening; the week was starting up and March 1 was looming big and here he stood with no rent, and estranged from his family, and no money. Trayvon was not “on specific individual” but the one person Fogen could confidently confront and “bring in” that particular night. Any unarmed Black kid who did not look dangerous would do; it ended up being Trayvon. There was another Black kid in the neighborhood who had given a quote to the newspapers in March, saying that Fogen patrolled with a gun and that he was “very strict” [imagine him having the nerve to be “strict” about other people doing whatever they were doing in their own neighborhoods!] and that if he had come upon the other young Black kid, he would have started up something. I found that quote very revealing and shocking. Fogen was KNOWN to be running around that neighborhood bossing and bullying Black kids.

    • MichelleO says:

      Can you tell us why criminals, vigilante’s or even individuals target specific people? Fear? Hatred? Biases? OPPORTUNITY?

      • racerrodig says:

        Fear? Hatred? Biases? OPPORTUNITY?

        I say all of the above, having know a few racists in my time. And the worst part is that they try to sell that garbage to just about everyone.

        I had a mechanic that worked for me (not my hire) back in the early 80’s. When John Lennon was murdered, he went on for hours that day saying how Lennon was a Commie, Hippie, Deadbeat, Radical who deserved to die. Lennon…..a capitalist…..making millions and doing benefit concerts in wholesale fashion, a Commie???

        You don’t even want to know how he felt about MLK…..ohhhhh But he’d lecture us on how these n’s all needed to be hung. I should have followed him some evening……might have found out where the Klan meetin’s were.

  40. ladystclaire says:

    Just as I have said all along and many times before, there were certain people in that neighborhood who did not like the idea of black living there and therefore they concocted the lies about the non existent home invasions, in order to start a NW of their own which was not registered. one home break in does not say that there were several as the liar told the NEN dispatch.

    If there was a break in, I believe Fogen had a lot to do with said invasion for the purpose of fencing stolen property in another state where it most likely wouldn’t be traced back to the state of Florida. what else could he have been mailing out of state that would cost so much money to have it shipped?

    They didn’t want presence of a few blacks there so they came up with a plan to rid RTL of their presence. why else would he just walk up to a black tenant and ask, what are you doing here or, why would he follow a black man home as well as accuse a 16 yr old black kid of stealing his bicycle when he more than likely didn’t have one.

    • leander22 says:

      lady, from my limited perspective you bent over way too far to the right in doing the same to Fogen the treehousers do to the–to use their term–Scheme Team”, Trayvon’s family and last but surely not least since most prominently to Trayvon himself. …

      I guess the percentage of people working and studying at the same time, must have been part time on both side or evening classes, is not the typical profile of the member of a burglary gang. I am not saying there couldn’t exist one or the other, I am saying it wouldn’t be the average member of such a gang or lone break in expert. …

      Concerning sending something somewhere. Strictly I have not paid much attention to his bank documents. It could have been a simple cost benefit calculation. Let’s assume the allegedly existing trailer somewhere out of state, was most easy to reach by plane. How much would it have been to take all the necessities along by plane versus sending everything beyond allowed weight by mail?

      • Xena says:


        I guess the percentage of people working and studying at the same time, must have been part time on both side or evening classes, is not the typical profile of the member of a burglary gang.

        Oh yes it is, especially when the person is failing their classes. Consider also that GZ received $18,000 in July 2011, but refused to pay the server at his (non) graduation party, and that ShelLIE was (and still is) unemployed and not looking for a job.

        Something else too — GZ told Singleton that he knew all the residents and all the children in that community. That would include Burgess.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        “from my limited perspective you bent over way too far to the right in doing the same to Fogen the treehousers do to the–to use their term–Scheme Team”

        Yes, thank you for saying this.

  41. Dave says:

    So why would the killer and his alleged accomplices specifically target Trayvon Martin?

    Had Trayvon actually done something?

    Did they mistake him for someone who had?

    Did his visits to TRATL coincide with particular crimes?

    Because of his color? Come on. There must be at least a hundred African Americans living at TRATL, to say nothing of occasional visitors.

    I don’t get it. I can sort of see how a gin-soaked loser like the defendant might lash out at a random stranger but a concerted multiperson conspiracy against a harmless kid seems farfetched.

    • May not have been anything more than he was Black, young, alone, a newcomer to the scene and vulnerable.

      The defendant was not going to pick on an adult or a tough looking kid like Emmanuel Burgess.

      • Jun says:

        It falls along his psychological profile (which i am guessing the FBI has on Fogenhats)…

        If you look at all of Fogenhats’ victims, they are people who are not strong or tough people… but at the same time there was an exception in that he attacked police officers

      • leander22 says:

        Jun, he didn’t know it was an officer, that I actually believe. In this context I must assume his mind does not work very fast.

        How about you? Were you aware you weren’t allowed to drink alcoholic beverages at the age of his friend, what about a younger friend who drank a beer, with you being aware he was younger. Now imagine suddenly a swarm of older plainclothes entered the place and grasped some. What would be the first thing on your mind?

        It feels to me surrenders to authority usually, at least feigns surrender and/or flattery, in this case he simply was mistaken. But since that is a rule he accepts he loves to be the authority too sometimes.

        • Xena says:

          Before I considered GZ’s action of assaulting the officer, I asked why would someone come into the men’s room and tell him that his friend was taken outside? Apparently, whomever told GZ felt that he was the person most likely to fight.

        • blushedbrown says:


          >>>>>>How about you? Were you aware you weren’t allowed to drink alcoholic beverages at the age of his friend, what about a younger friend who drank a beer, with you being aware he was younger. Now imagine suddenly a swarm of older plainclothes entered the place and grasped some. What would be the first thing on your mind?

          That its a freakin’ raid.

          Everyone knows when its legal to drink, smoke and drive. I don’t care who you are, these are things most people want to do when they become of age. Signs are posted at every bar and every store where alcohol and tobacco are sold. It’ no secret.

          If a group of people wanted to come in a bar and do harm, they would fight you right then and there, not necesscary to drag you out and fight.

          If you are in a bordello and a swarm of men came in yelling and grabbing people, same thing its a freakin’ raid.

          If you are in a drug house, swarm of people come in, its a freakin’ raid.

      • tonydphotog says:

        I remember reading that the cop did identify himself, and fogen told him that he didn’t care who the f–k he was. And then he assaulted the cop.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Now imagine suddenly a swarm of older plainclothes entered the place and grasped some. What would be the first thing on your mind?

        I would also think it’s a raid.

        • blushedbrown says:


          Yep. Now imagine, you come out and see your friend facing the wall for inspection, duh, that is a cop doing that. GZ saying that he didn’t know they they were cops is stupid. Or pulling out your id, that is a cop doing asking for that. Their actions taken against his friend should of been a freakin clue.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I can accept that John perhaps lied, but I see no conspiracy to grab Trayvon Martin. That evolved in the moment.

      • MichelleO says:

        We don’t know that at this point, do we? But what we do know is that some of the witnesses were part of the neighborhood watch program, knew Fogen, and would call him about “suspicous” people on the property—but not the police

        • racerrodig says:

          It make no sense at all to call Fogen when you are looking out the window at a potential crime or a crime being committed. Unless he thinks he’s authorized to go investigate, why waste time with any 3rd party.

          Maybe that’s why Taaffe said criminals were just walking down the sidewalk, 56 or 60 inch TV in hand, merrily as they go, because everyone knew Sheriff Fogen just couldn’t get to the scene on time. Maybe Fogen had everyone so scared that they were not about to argue with him.

    • Malisha says:

      The whole idea of profiling is based on two things: (a) The profiler believes he is on HIS TURF and whoever he thinks does not look like he belongs, is labeled as “the other” or “those kind” or whatever, such as “suspicious.” Remember the reasons Trayvon was suspicious? They all amounted to: I DO NOT KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING HERE. He’s just HERE and I don’t know WHY and I need to know why. And: (b) The profiler has disdain or contempt for people who look, dress and/or appear like the profiled person.

      Trayvon was not just “a random stranger.” He represented something in Fogen’s imagination that was very fearsome, and dangerous, and inimical, and wrongful, and negative. Fogen needed to control these “elements” and thought Trayvon should be submissive to that desire.

      • MichelleO says:

        I don’t think Fogen cared whether or not this young black male was submissive to him or not, because, he, Fogen, was going to make sure that he was. He was following a young, black, defenseless male with no witnesses about. What a golden moment to flash his gun and to actually use it.

        • racerrodig says:

          “What a golden moment to flash his gun and to actually use it.”

          That’s what I’ve been saying for some time. I happen to know a few just like that. The tough guy with the gun. Always looking for an opportunity to pull it out. Scary people of that there is no doubt. The results of their handy work always have a bad ending.

  42. Malisha says:

    A bit OT but this thought just occurred to me while I did the dishes: How TF did Fogen know that Trayvon Martin was not some young man who was coming into the neighborhood for some mentoring by a nice white guy (or even a very nice Hispanic guy with a white father) and found that he was a bit early, and didn’t want to impose upon his wonderful host by showing up too early, so he dawdled a bit. Evidently young Bpa-lack males can come into RTL for mentoring when the need that and evidently there are residents of RTL who are very willing to give of themselves toward this laudable purpose.

    • racerrodig says:

      Unless you have a bag of Skittles, then you’re fair game.

    • leander22 says:

      good point Malisha, you should collect them.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      That would never enter Fogen’s mind, because in his world, he is the only decent American in RVC…nobody else living there would ever mentor young black youths. He was king chit in there and everyone else were peons. Apparently, to Fogen, he is the only one that can walk around in RVC and not be suspicious.

  43. ay2z says:

    Good afternoon, this is my first post here, interesting theory. I’d always wondered a bout the investigator’s comments as the to-be-defendant, came into the interrogation room on Feb 29th and could have (or was intended to) overheard the comments “MMA, WWF….” Curious why they would say this within earshot, maybe as a prompt for the target of the investigation, to take them into his own description if he had talked to witness John and described the action this way?

    Rachel, I listened to the Jeremy ‘warned’ section on soundcloud and before reading any comments. I find it too garbled to decipher and don’t want to build on other’s suggestions because that will distort perspective further, adding context from the suggestions or ideas. It sounds like ‘warned’, but it also sounds like it’s possibly ‘wanted me’…. say to do something. Really, doesn’t matter much, we’ll get Jeremy’s version at trial. As far as the ‘get in here’ demands of his mother, he may well have opened the porch door and that could be ‘get in’, but then his mother says ‘get down!’. We know he’s not supposed to get down the stairs, while his mother is calling him to where she is at, upstairs inside a bedroom. Seems at some point after Jeremy is inside the townhouse, ‘get in here now!’ is about getting upstairs and into the room where his mother was on the phone with 911.

    • Malisha says:

      I think it’s his girlfriend. When I first heard that tape I interpreted “Get in here” as her saying he should get into the protected bedroom with her in case shots were going to ring out again. Which would mean he could have even been in the hallway nearby, and she wanted him in that very room. “Jeremy get IN here.”

  44. abbyj says:

    “I have long suspected that the defendant had enlisted the support and cooperation of some neighborhood residents to serve as his eyes and ears. I also suspect that those eyes and ears had reported Trayvon’s presence in the neighborhood to the defendant. In other words, I believe he was specifically hunting for Trayvon when he left his house that night and I believe John was one of his informants.”

    @Prof, The six scenarios you provide acknowledge the residents’ compelling need to protect their financial investments and safety (even from fogen himself), none of which were mutually exclusive. I am pleased to see you express your suspicions that the pursuit and dispatching of Trayvon Martin was a coordinated plan involving residents of the community. Several other homeowners may have been part of an agreement to channel their observations of Martin’s movements directly to fogen. The pieces of the narrative do not fit together tightly otherwise.

    Fogen was “on his way to Target to shop”? Not with two quarters and one maxed-out credit card he wasn’t. Fogen’s mention of Trayvon using FTaaffe’s cut-through later in his NEN call? Fogen’s decision to use NEN instead of 911 allowed him to calculate the delay in police arriving. Fogen’s plan to use a SYG defense fell apart when he was not injured by Trayvon. And so on.

    In any event, your point is well taken: with John’s waffling, his account his account is now irretrievably besmirched.

    I too have believed that at least one resident, yet perhaps John and Taaffe both, had been eyeing Trayvon and had witnessed him leaving his father’s townhome. The informants quickly notified fogen that Trayvon was on the move. Fogen then began his pursuit of Trayvon, a pursuit for which he was strategically unprepared and unfit, IMO.

  45. whonoze says:

    The problem with your theory is that John did not have the opportunity to speak with GZ after the shooting. He could only have learned the details of GZ’s story from the police. I suspect his initial statement was extracted by suggestion and leading questions from the officer(s) who spoke to him.

    • Malisha says:

      Could be officers, could be others there, even Osterman, could be anyone — could have been told to him by phone. Could have been “guided” by interviewer.

    • Unless the person the defendant called immediately after the shooting was John.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It is interesting that Fogen had the first neighbor on the scene call his wife. Why did he not call Shellie?

      • kimmi says:

        IIRC, didn’t LLMPapa do a video of the Hannity interview where Fogen said he called an officer?

      • ay2z says:

        kimmi, good memory, he sure did, here’s LLMPapa’s link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0FdA4vFFpY

        I’m a fan– it’s a daily ritual, to visit the LLMP archives to see what’s new.

        I just listended to John’s interviews again and there are a few things that stick out. He tells Serino within a half hour of his 911 call quote “We pretty much heard….” yet he claims he was alone in the house. He also changes what the 911 operator said about others also calling in, to the operator telling John that there were “four more calls coming in….”.

        And when Investigator Serino asks “Did you recognize either of these two guys?”, John’s answer is (to me) strange as he said “No, that’s the bad thing”.

        One of the other strange remarks, was in the FDLE interview, when Witless 6 responded to a question about the first interview he gave to police, where, when and who interviewed him. 6’s answer was outside the night of the shooting, and it was the ‘Police Chief’ or investigator. He settled on the ‘investigator’, but why would he think the police chief had come to the scene?

        Could the ‘police chief’ have interviewed him at some other time?

        *we know that Chief Lee attended the crime scene as he was listed on the ‘contamination log’ as arriving, but not signed out.

        Also, what helicopter was flying over the scene at 20:12 when the Air Care helicopters were said to be grounded due to weather. Did weather really clear within minutes to allow helicopters flying low in that area?

      • racerrodig says:

        Let me say this again. My connections tell me we will be shocked at the phone records. I am positive that there are calls between Fogen, Osterman, Taaffe, Shelie and Smith before and after the shot is fired. The more I think about this, I am beginning to think John 6 may have to be on that list.

      • ay2z says:

        and if it were John, he could have picked up any messages or incoming numbers when handed his phone by Investigator Singleton in part 1 of the first interview on the 26th. Once he provided info the officers needed about security cameras, he seems to be caught up possibly paying attention to his phone until Singleton asks to have it back.

      • kimmi says:

        IIRC, some of the neighbors were on the phone with 911 while their spouses/significant others were on the phone with a neighbor. I can’t seem to find the right audio, but in the background you can hear one person on the phone with a neighbor, while the other is on the phone with 911. I hope FDLE figures that out, which neighbor spoke with which and when.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        W17 [John’s wife] said they called their neighbors who are Jeremy and W11:

        Batchelor: You indicated that you called the neighbors next door.

        W17: Yeah.

        Batchelor: Did you speak to them?

        W17: Yeah. Next door.

        Batchelor: Did you personally speak to them?

        W17: Yes. I was speaking with xxxxx and xxxx was the one that was on the phone with 911.

        Batchelor: Okay. And then what was said?

        W17: Oh, gosh. Let’s see. I asked if they knew, you know, what was going on. If they were home. And he said that xxxxx was on the phone with 911. And that they think someone had been shot. By then I had already been upstairs in the hallway. And I had already heard what at the time I thought was a rock hit the window.

        Batchelor: Okay. So, your conversation as you indicated in your statement with the next door neighbors was subsequent to what you heard the rock sound or whatever.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        “Let me say this again. My connections tell me we will be shocked at the phone records.”

        If so, this makes OM’s pandering to the paying supporters and all his whining to the prosecution even more dubious.

  46. Rachael says:

    Upon listening with different headphones, it sounds like he is saying, “He warned me he’s shoot you.” Doesn’t make sense though. I’ll keep listening.

    • tonydphotog says:

      Also, listen for someone saying “OK” right after the “He warned me.” And then around 1:41, right after the dispatcher ask for her name/number, listen for someone saying “Mark”

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      Dang, I hear, “he warned he’d shoot her”. I don’t know who he would be referring to as “her”, but that is what it sounds like to me.

  47. Malisha says:

    I think the first interview Jon gave was full of bravado and full of sh1t. He did not think there would ever be a SECOND interview because it was not hard to tell which way the wind was blowing on 2/26/2012. Remember, the 13-year-old boy’s mother said the police actually CORRECTED his story as he told it; Mary and Selma were not debriefed properly and were ignored; W-18 was told what to think about what she saw. So Jon had no reason to suspect that if he gave what amounted to a little kid telling whoppers about an exciting scene, it would come back to bite him. All this was predicated upon the racist assumption that the dead kid was some criminal nobody would miss and therefore, if he even HAD a family (and if they were, by some miracle, not in prison already), they couldn’t do anything to protest his death going unpunished.

    When the tables turned — which they only did because the little burg of RTL is not like the whole rest of the country or even like the whole rest of Florida — there was Jon with his a55 hanging out, worried about his statement, and casting about for a way to make it look less incriminating to HIM while still supportive of his buddy, Fogen, who after all just had to shoot some thug. Then, his rendition of what happened had to get non-clear and non-rational and had to put all kinds of irrelevant details in to try to make it come out non-incriminating. I have seen this. I have seen videos of police interviews that end in confessions, but that start with statements that would have made the confessions absolutely impossible; and I’m not talking about force or trickery or coercion. They just keep asking questions about the details that CAN be proven and they keep bringing up the things that CANNOT be reconciled with the physical evidence and eventually, the person goes through (sometimes) three stages:

    1 – Absolute denial of everything and plenty of affirmative reasons it could not have happened;

    2 – Detailed and superfluous explanations of side issues and irrelevancies that the person believes will either get the cops to think well of him or get them to stop asking the questions he doesn’t like; and finally,

    3 – Admission of some UNdeniable things that lead inexorably to the original things he already denied. A skillful cop will never, at this point, say to the person, “But you told me two hours ago that you weren’t even there that night.” He will just let the person gradually tell the approximately true story, minus the really bad parts, which the police will then fill in, in gentle question form, “So you did go ahead and kill her at that point?” And they say, “Yeah, at that point, yeah…yeah.”

    That’s where I think Jon is headed. And a few other witnesses as well. Their statements don’t show it yet, but when they’re under oath, it’s gonna inevitably come out.

    • whonoze says:

      Darnit Malisha. W6 is ‘John’. W13 is ‘Jon’.

      • Malisha says:

        Sorry. I type by subvocalizing and not by visuals, and I just kept typing “Jon” because I had started that. If I could do a global replace to a comment I already posted, I would.

        It’s just like that in the life, Whonoze; too many johns, not enough time. :mrgreen:

  48. Xena says:

    John’s statement, when compared to GZ’s story, raises questions about both. Considering the timing in which John purportedly witnessed a physical altercation, if it is true that Trayvon was beating GZ MMA style, then Trayvon could not have had his hands over GZ’s mouth and nose as GZ described.

    • manberk says:

      BOOM! He also saw the event on the concrete, even says he saw GZ sit up, but never describes head bashing either.

    • Xena says: “if it is true that Trayvon was beating GZ MMA style, then Trayvon could not have had his hands over GZ’s mouth and nose as GZ described”

      omg! there ya go again!! yep i bet gz is reading this and shaking his head saying ” um… Xena, we don’t need you to do that!”

      • Xena says:


        omg! there ya go again!! yep i bet gz is reading this and shaking his head saying ” um… Xena, we don’t need you to do that!”

        LOL! Yeah, and he will get one of his henchmen to post denigrating remarks about me someone and after a month or so of getting no reaction from me, (because I don’t read their filth), that henchmen will get one of his sheep to send a comment to my blog with a link to his filth. That is what they do. But GZ is still going to jail for life. So it is declared. So shall it be.

      • roderick2012 says:

        No, one of O’Mara’s ‘interns’ is reading this and screaming ‘WTF’ very loudly.

    • kimmi says:

      I love LLMPapa…He says so much, with so few words!

      • Papa’s videos are pure gold.

      • Malisha says:

        Love that, LLMPapa.

        Notice how, when Fogen is telling his story, he feels GOOD? He is like a kid who has the whole class’s attention so he can tell the story of what he did last summer, and he has a tale of heroism to tell — he saved his dog Lassie! Lassie was drowning and a bandit was gonna kidnap Lassie and a gang of thieves were gonna take her and Fogen saved the dog! Yeah. Yeah, that’s it. 😈

  49. blushedbrown says:


    For research purposes I obtained a copy of Osterman’s book. I know that alot of his stated facts are wrong. But nevertheless, I did glean a couple of things.

    In reference to what you wrote:

    I have long suspected that the defendant had enlisted the support and cooperation of some neighborhood residents to serve as his eyes and ears. I also suspect that those eyes and ears had reported Trayvon’s presence in the neighborhood to the defendant. In other words, I believe he was specifically hunting for Trayvon when he left his house that night and I believe John was one of his informants.

    In Osterman’s book he mentions this a couple of times.

    On page 11 he writes:
    It was not uncommon for neighbors to call George and Shellie Zimmerman. Often they would call George, the neighborhood watch captain, to report anything that seemed suspicous or of concern. They felt comfortable handing the information over to George and asking him to report to the police on their behalf. Later, when it would come to light that George made many calls to the police department before the night of February 26th, it would not be common knowledge that he was making most of the calls at the
    request of others.

    However he reiterates this fact once again on page 143 under the Paragraph title: Prosecutors will Portray GZ as a “Cowboy Vigilante” Making Up his Own Rules

    He writes:

    Prosecution will be able to prove that George called the police over 46 times since 2004. In itself and on the surface it would seem that George was “overzealous” about reporting anything and everything to the police, including open gargae doors to suspicious characters, several of whom are black. As pointed out previously, however, many of George’s neighbors within The Retreat made George their contact, and then he in turn called the police on their behalf.

    I find these statements given by Osterman, gives more credence as to the “tipster” theory.

    It seems to me as well as others, that the “tipster” did what they normally do, they don’t call the police they call George.

    That tipster may be John. He was the only one to eagerly back up GZ. Even though later he retracted the “MMA” style fighting, he still clings to who was on top, regardless of how many people have stated that they saw the “young kid” on the bottom when they heard their neighbor (wintess 6) say, ” I’m calling 911″.

    John is in deep shitake. I think he may come clean on the witness stand.

    • very interesting BB! so it’s kinda settled in my mind really. someone told gz about Trayvon, even if it hurts my feelings even MORE to think gz’s filthy mind had previously thought of Trayvon as a bad kid, and had probably seen his cute baby face before that night!
      now i wonder what that POS had already said about this poor innocent kid!!

      but it really makes a lot of sense now that you posted what osterass had to say. i hadn’t heard this before- about the residence calling gz and gz then makes the 311 calls!! i thought it was more or less gz patrolling while armed. but i never put much stock in the idea that many residents would actually bother to call gz!!

      if you want, i mean if you ever get the inclination, i mean if there is ever a day when you find yourself sooooooooo bored that you find yourself accidentally writing copious notes or passages of or about oterass’s book, feel free to drop them on a page or two over there on my blog.. 😆
      i tried awhile ago to send some of you guys a invite to be an author or whatever they call it..( just so you can write on it whenever you want and can do it yourself) did you ever see it? and if it’s there can you still use it, cas i’m not sure if i did it right. i used the name you use on wordpress and not emails cas i didn’t have it!

      but i’m dieing to see that book now!!! wonder if anyone has one that i can buy off them cas i wouldn’t want to contribute to the idiots defense fund or osterass’s stupid fund!!

      • blushedbrown says:


        Yes, it does make alot more sense. I find it very curious that Mark would put that in his book, sorta like he is blaming the neighbors for calling him and not fessing up to it. JMO. At this point with a trial date looming closer and closer, IMO gz has found the only way to alleviate some of his pressure is to start telling his lawyer there was a “tipster”. He loves blaming everyone else for his troubles. This is his Modus Operandi. He will tell his lawyer what he needs to break someone else’s balls, mainly a tipster. John and or Jeremy are in a helluva bind.

        I did indeed receive your email and forgive me for not responding earlier. I have been quite busy here on this and several blogs. I guest post on Dothprotest and Blackbutterfly along with daily research of the case.

        I see no problem with posting a chapter of two on your site. For educational purposes. (snark) But really I will, I will just have to squeeze some more hours into the day.

        • but what good is it gonna do him to tell on a tipster? it makes his crime even worse. it’ll be premeditated murder 1!! i wish he’s go and do that tho!! i wish he’d blab on everyone who knew what he was doing! that would really clean up the streets in that housing project!!lol ( i heard someone say they refused to call it a gated community LOL)

          so it would be awsome to really get those who wanted to take the *law* into their own hands, and think it’s fun to watch and listen to a KID being murdered!!! pos people just sat on their hands giggling and smirking telling the cops lie after lie!!! makes me sick!!!

          sick twisted killers!! they all better get a really good lawyer cas they’re gonna need one when gz rats them out!!

          • blushedbrown says:

            >>>>>but what good is it gonna do him to tell on a tipster? it makes his crime even worse. it’ll be premeditated murder 1!!

            Look at it from the other side, it gives him leeway that he was not looking for Trayvon but someone told him that he was at the mailbox, therefore not culpable in gz eyes. I know sometimes its disgusting to think like him, but this is what he does. Remember the assault on the police officer. It wasn’t his fault, it wasn’t the underage friend drinking, it was the cops fault, it is always somebody else fault. Follow?

            Lets say for argument sake that there is a “tipster” in gz’s eyes its their fault for calling him. Its their fault for him trying to detain a teenager. Its their fault for assuming that he was suspcious.

            Even if, IF a person called him I don’t think it would be premediated because the person had no idea that he would kill someone. They only did what they ususally do call him and report. He took the action that he did, not the “tipster”. Btw, I still think that if this scenario is true that the “tipster is responsible to a certain extent, but not murder. That is all GZ.

    • kimmi says:

      IIRC, even the RTL newsletter said to call “George’

      • blushedbrown says:


        YES! The HOA is also in deep shitake.

      • kimmi says:

        GZ took his Captain role way too far to the extreme
        The February 2012 RTL Newsletter states twice to call GZ…
        pg 155, pg 159

        pg 159-“To receive NW updates, safety tips and be notified of suspicious activity within your community call George Zimmerman (407)435-2400 or e-mail RTLneighborhoodwatch@gmail.com to get involved.”
        pg 155-“If you’ve been a victim of a crime within the community, after calling the police please contact our Captain, George Zimmerman (407)435-4200 so we can be aware and help address the issue with other residents.”

      • racerrodig says:

        If a citizen sees any crime or suspicious activity, why would anyone waste precious time calling a 3rd party. Did Fogen go to all the neighbors with some bullshit line about he being the one to call. Maybe he said the police will question you for days, it’ll ruin your life, the bad guy will find out you called and go after you………..But, I Fogen, with my mighty 9mm Kel – Tek can handle all of this, so you call me if you know what’s good for you.

      • Jun says:

        So they used an idiot as a NW, without even checking his prior history… and what do you know, the Fogenhats does not know what the hell he is doing and did not even stop any crime but use his self given title to harass neighbors and black people, and now he stalks and kills a kid…

        it should have been an alarm going off when the police would not accept him as a cop and kicked his application into the garbage…

        and this murder is perfect example… how did he stop crime? He did not actually, he committed crimes, and stopped a kid’s life, who was walking home with skittles and ice tea, when there was no danger or rash of break ins in that neighborhood (even many witnesses said they never noticed any rash of break ins, I think except w11 said there was a rash of breaks in but she works for the Homeowners and she was brainwashed by Fogenhats)

      • manberk says:

        Jumping off Junes comments about his actually having any success;

        Note he constantly tells the tale of the guy in front of Taaffes who was later arrested. Its even listed on the wiki page of this crime. Let me be perfectly blunt GZ didnt have a goddam thing to do with his arrest and as per usual, other than in his story, there’s no evidence at all its the same guy. Yet he has milked it to no end. I believe it was sent out in HOA emails. Neighbors interviewed by the FBI believed it. I dont. Considering his number of complaints his ratio of them materializing was rather low.

    • Dave says:

      The killer, as I recal,l made an awful lot of calls to the police even before he moved to TRATL>

      • blushedbrown says:


        You are correct.
        That is what he does.
        The only difference with the calls he made from the RATL are that he was listed as the POC on the newsletters. He had handed out NW cards printed by Wendy Dorvial to alot of the neighbors. I can totally see people calling gz instead of calling the NEN themselves. They knew he was all hyped up for the job.

    • roderick2012 says:

      If it were well know that George received tips from neighbors then why the story about going to Target unless whoever tipped George off also assisted George in detaining Trayvon.

      Maybe more than one other person helped detain Trayvon (John and Taaffe?)

      Remember Witness #11 stated that it sounded like FOUR men.

      My God the fear that Trayvon must have felt. One lunatic holding him at gunpoint while one or more persons physically restrained him all because he wore the same skin color as the burglars.

      • blushedbrown says:

        According to his book it wasn’t common knowledge that he made calls for other residents. I think that is why some neighbors try to cover for him. Think about the implications that would of been drawn if it was. Do you honestly think they would all come forward and say, ” Yeah we never called the police when we saw something suspcious we called ole georgie because we knew he was our resident NW guy who was out patrolling and like to profile young black men in the NW. Our hands would be clean, we wouldn’t be sued, we wouldn’t get in trouble, he would take the fall for everything. Alot of shiesty sh8t was going on at the Retreat. Just sayin….

        • roderick2012 says:

          I thought that the flyers that the HOA handed out had George as the contact person if any of the residents saw anything suspicious.

          I could be wrong but I thought that was what I remembered.

          • racerrodig says:

            Having anything that has Fogen or any 3rd party as a contact person when a resident see’s something is “deputizing” them to act.

        • “According to his book it wasn’t common knowledge that he made calls for other residents.

          Maybe it wasn’t common knowledge because other residents never called him.

      • Mirre says:

        Because GZ was packing. Rules of nw clearly states that no guns should be carried while on patrol.

      • seallison says:

        After seeing Osterman and his wife on Dr. Phil, there is no way on Gods green earth that I would believe a word written in the book. He was right there at the scene, he accompanied Fogen wherever he had to go, hid Fogen for weeks, and professes an undying friendship.

        If you dont believe his book is spinning the truth, I ask that you watch or re-watch the Dr. Phil interview.

        The book took a couple of months to write, if that. I believe Osterizer helped GZ before during and after that night. I believe his writing effort is an attempt to do the same.

        Personally, I do not believe a word he says.

      • manberk says:

        One of the witnesses, cant recall which one now, has Joe, Flashlight photographer, 1st one on the scene, RUNNING towards GZ. Maybe its #18? Just noticed recently. Who runs towards gun shots? Not strangers.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          That’s the thing, they’re all acting like relatives of GZ. First they’re scared stiff, then they’re rushing to smooze with GZ, first they don’t know who he is, next thing they’re calling his wife for him. Taking pictures for him, lying for him, making up stories for him. Then insisting they only knew him as a passing acquaintance. Back and forth, back and forth, showing a bias a witness should not have.

          Lies aren’t going to protect the HOA from liability, but when they’re discovered they’re going to make matters much, much more serious, so why bother? Because, if and when a lie is discovered, no only will it damage the HOA’s defenses, but it has the greater capacity to place the liar at substantial risk. Which is why John, when confronted with the evidence left behind, had to change his story or face the possibility of being charged himself.

          Now that he’s on record for having willfully lied, the SP knows that he did not do so, merely to protect the HOA, about whom he could give less than a damn, when weighed against him going to jail. Meaning he had to have done it, because he has some “dog in the hunt”, or “skin in the game”. He’s not going to come clean on his own, he’s going to wait and hope that the SP doesn’t uncover his connection to the events. After all, he has little reason to believe that anything more will be discovered.

          The last thing anyone in Sanford wants is for MOM to get his continuance, they want this trial over with and those damned spotlights turned off.

      • ay2z says:

        Strange that the obsessively-detailed defendant would fail to provide Wendy Dorval with his list of ‘block captains’.

        • Lonnie Starr says:


          Strange that the obsessively-detailed defendant would fail to provide Wendy Dorval with his list of ‘block captains’.


          He’s “obsessively detailed” but “forgetful and sloppy”.
          He’s a Law Abiding Law breaker.
          He’s an unafraid paranoiac.
          He’s mild mannered and violence prone.
          He’s a helpless combatant.
          He’s an unarmed, armed person.
          He’s an honest liar.
          He’s a fair cheater.
          He’s a cowardly hero.

          Oh, and he’s a stupid genius.

          • racerrodig says:

            You’ll get no argument here, that’s for sure.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            As this quality of GZ reveals itself at trial the jurors will gag! He’s forgetful, can’t remember the name of the third street in the community, the one that runs from the front gate to his beloved rear gate. But, he knows the name, address and title, as well as the company name of the person who is responsible for the cctv’s, and has his phone number on his speed dial.

            He forgot he has a gun that he always carries, even though jurors are going to hear those strange clicks on the NeN tape that sound very much like the gun being racked. But then, he’s going to tell you he remembers verbatim, the dialogue that occurred between him and a witness shortly after he was almost beaten to death, oh yes and don’t forget “call my wife and tell her I killed someone else!”

            OH and we have a classic here: I saw him coming between buildings over here by the home of this total stranger, who I called at his girlfriends place and wished him condolences about his ex military son who had committed suicide. Bet Serino never knew GZ knew so much about total strangers eh? How many people have the phone numbers of acquaintances in their contacts lists?

            The trial won’t be about race, it will be about just how stupid can the defendant believe you are as a juror? At some point, even the racist is going to forget that they are a racist and simply feel so terribly insulted they will begin to direct their hatred at GZ. So, the less race is mentioned, the more impact the threadbare lies being told, are going to have.

          • esentrick says:

            Bravo Lonnie Starr! Could not have stated it better.

          • racerrodig says:

            I agree that race will play little if any part when this goes to trial other than a passing reference or BDLR or one of his gang will ask about mentoring black kids and Trayvon doesn’t get a pass.

            There is no doubt at trial he will make some pretty ridiculous statements. “…um, there’s three streets ?” Not to mention he can’t escape all of the contradictions as to where he say Trayvon for the 1st time, the unfathomable problems with his timeline and distances that could not have been traveled in specific times, the body location, the spent casing location and I could go on.

            The truth never changes……….but the lie always morphs.

            His NEN call almost sounds like a script that could have been written down based on the physical location of the clubhouse, the T and dog walk and as long as nobody questioned a thing, it would work.

            Did you ever have a conversation with someone who seems to be talking about donuts when you are talking about steak? If I was to reenact live this alleged event to his NEN call from minute one I’d be on stale donuts….reality would be a gorgeous steak like I BBQ with baked potato’s, and any other side you want.

            He has nothing at all when compared to what really happened.

    • Donna Flores says:

      In one interview he claims criminals and burglars go between houses to escape being captured. There is no way in hell he drove past Trayvon and waited at the clubhouse. Trayvon could have taken a different route, even around the pool to come out at the other end. I’m more than sure more than one person called him. That’s why the phone records are being kept quiet.

      • racerrodig says:

        “I’m more than sure more than one person called him. That’s why the phone records are being kept quiet.”

        You got it….I know for a fact the phone records will crush him.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Why would he even tell a lie like that? Consider, when he does find TM at the mail boxes, he never lets him out of his sight until TM runs, and even then GZ knows where he’s running to, so he knows which way to go to head him off,

        Obviously, GZ got ahead of TM, while TM was probably hiding, moving south slowly in the shadows of the buildings on either side of the dog walk. If GZ really thought that TM was headed for the back gate, he’d have gone straight to the back gate and waited for him there. But, he didn’t do that. Instead he waited somewhere in the shadows along the buildings in the dog walk corridor. Because, if he’d gone to the back gate to wait, TM would have made it home and never appeared back there.

        But back to FT’s place. Why would GZ claim that he drove on ahead of TM? Obviously, to have seen as much detail as he claims, he had to stop there in the road, all alone in the rain, watching TM’s progress. TM would have immediately remarked that he was being followed by some strange dude.

        So, what GZ is trying to do is make it appear that he didn’t stop to watch TM, thus TM had no clue that GZ was watching him, until later.

        How much later? Well… Get this; until TM reaches the clubhouse 5 seconds behind GZ’s arrival, and then brazenly does this challenging walk towards his truck.

        So there, someone who doesn’t even realize that GZ is following him, comes to the clubhouse, via a 1 minute 20 second walk. Arrives at the clubhouse only 5 seconds after GZ parks, then brazenly challenges GZ by walking towards his truck for some strange reason. Obviously he’s not supposed to know that a truck, taking 80 seconds to make a 15 second trip, along the path he’s walking, has absolutely no interest in him???

        If I was the SP, I’d have him in protective custody now, because anyone with him can’t possibly believe that their secret is safe or will be. Oh, wait, the FBI is probably watching him closely, to see who makes the first attempt on him.

        This is some case, it’s coming apart at the seams, yet again!

    • Erica says:

      yes that sounds very plauible! maybe john lied because he was the one that called gz in the first place so maybe he feels gz would have never been there if it were not for him and he wants to help him cover his tracks.

      • blushedbrown says:


        If Racer’s connects are right, gz phone records will be the last nail in his coffin.

        It’s very plausible, if you look at the map, witness 6&17. 11&20 would of have somewhat of a view of the mailbox area.

        IIRC, the only one who gave permission to download information from his phone was witness 13, Joe Manolo, because he had taken the three pictures.

  50. manberk says:

    Coincidentally I was just reading the transcript from Johhs 2nd FDLE interview from a recent discovery dump:

    Click to access 12-3198_Appendix.pdf

    So many things I find curious.
    He clearly backs off seeing TM hitting and GZ being the one yelling.
    Appears he’s trying to justify his earlier comments a few times by suggesting “anyone would think that if they were me” which I find to be a curious tell. His story almost completely changes to, really, TM holding down GZ, and trying to secure his hands (which btw is what other witness saw). He even goes so far to at one point say that TM was holding GZ for the cops to arrive! Huh?! Another tell. Although he mentions there may have initially been hitting, in his description of events he seems pretty clear it was wrestling.

    I also noticed at one point he says no light was one, but later says his porch light is always on.

    Then he osculates back and forth with whether or not he actually sees their faces, at different points saying he didnt see either, but was able to tell them apart based on one being lighter. I dont think he actually ever saw TM, if his back was to him, and his hood up.Sounds contrived to me. With Osterman on the scene its within reason to think they (SPD, GZ, AMMO) helped witnesses formulate a consistent story.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      As there are unreliable narrators in fiction, John may simply be a totally unreliable witness.

    • yeah i think you’er right about the spd and/or osterman and gz telling him what *happened* and so he needed to stick to the story.
      this story about the mma being so close to gz’s lie had to be TOLD to him. he couldn’t have unilaterally just made that whole story up! it’s too much detail.

    • Erica says:

      That sounds closer to the truth… Trayvon was trying to get gz’s hands with the gun in his hands away from him. Trayvon probably was pushing his arms away which may to this witness look likes he, Trayvon is pinning GZ dowm

  51. Two sides to a story says:

    Could it be as simple a matter as John saw Fogen and Trayvon engaged in a struggle and reported what he truly originally THOUGHT he saw, embellished by the SPD proclamations that the man who was screaming for help had been battered and had survived? Is that not enough for a witness to THINK maybe they saw something that they didn’t quite actually see, especially if they only caught a momentary glimpse? Eyewitnesses are notoriously off perception. We can really only rely on the recorded 911 calls for solid info.

    The corruption in SPD may not have been as well-planned or well-coordinated as some think.

    I’m still all for KISS explanation of this crime. I could have to eat my words, but I still think Fogen is more feckless than clever. However, John could certainly know him and have tried to help him with the MMA spiel.

    I’d love to see this case blow sky high and reveal EVERYTHING, though. But some speculation doesn’t seem all that realistic to me.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Fat and feckless:)

    • Mike says:

      @Two sides, I’m a believer in kiss (keep it simple stupid) .

    • I think it’s very simple.

      John said he saw MMA style punches being thrown down. That is a very specific claim that involves punching.Then he said he didn’t see any fighting or punches thrown.

      John lied.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Or did he lie the second time around? I’m confused. I don’t see much evidence either way to pin John down, unless he ‘fesses up or is exposed somehow.

      • Trained Observer says:

        So, if caught lying to a federal agent, isn’t he in a bind? Or perhaps he lied to Sanford PD, but came clean with the Feds? Have just read his accounts, and (apart from lying) he seems shaky at best. Some people like to be “insiders” until they realize they’re in over their heads by pretending to know things they don’t .

      • leander22 says:

        I think he is “feckless”* too, he is a coward trying to hide below his “finacée’s skirt, supposedly she asked him to not go out, then fled upstairs with her, in the end he added the MMA style to paint a threating scenario. I think it is a coincidence that it initially helped George.

        Thanks, I wasn’t aware of that word, or forgot it.

        No surprise here: I am not attracted too much to the helpers scenario beyond the quite possible informer.

        From what we have in the evidence, there may be more, all the neighborhood helpers of Fogen were females. And strictly if you put two males into the scenario, is it likely George would have needed to follow with somebody else around? Hadn’t he run, Sean wouldn’t have kept him much longer on the phone asking for if he lived in the community and where, which obviously was not relevant. It feels to me these were all delaying attempts, keeping him from doing something up to the point he ran out of ideas for more questions. Sean was skeptical from the start: Just let me know if he does something. I guess usually you report a burglar suspect with much more evidence. And these guys hear these type of calls every day.

        Sorry, Malisha, sorry Professor I am not very attracted to many of these questions. Some may matter to whatever extend. But most for me do not. I still hope you are right about the bigger scenario we are facing though, Professor, that would be a day to celebrate. It is not really a day to celebrate but to mourn and think of dead Trayvon, but this definitively could make it into one.

        Good night, almost 3 am.

      • Jun says:

        He lied because

        1) There is no forensic evidence that any punches from Trayvon or even Fogenhats were ever thrown

        2) He told a few different stories

        a) He said they were wrestling and then a shot was done, and then it all ended and the black guy was dead

        b) Once interviewed by Police, he stated that there were punches thrown while the victim was on top of the defendant and the defendant was screaming

        c) FDLE interviews him and he says that the victim may have simply been pinning the defendant on the ground, and the victim could have been yelling for help

        d) FDLE brings up the contradiction to a prior statement. W6 then gives another version now, which is, he does not know who was screaming, but he thinks the black guy was on top pinning or maybe punching, he does not know.

        e) Bernie interviews him, and W6 says he never heard any noises where blows were thrown or anything of that nature.

        There’s got to be a reason for such a drastic change in story tone

        W6 could have just been mistaken but if he stuck to story 2b, he would have been confronted with the forensic evidence and why that is a lie, and that the 911 recording is not the defendant screaming for help, but of the defendant threatening the victim. He did say, white or red, as the clothing….

      • leander22 says:

        Jun thanks for listing all the matters again neatly, congratulations, I assume I wouldn’t have been able to do this so neatly and as I assume as fast as you probably did.

        But listen again to the guys phone call. He is really concerned, and he watches #13 outside with his flashlight. Where he witnesses the exchange between Zimmerman and #w 13. That exchange could have melted in his mind with what he saw. That’s my interpretation.

        Listen to the difference between the even slightly shocked oh my God! reporting of what he sees outside. And compare it to the unperturbed expression he has assumed in his later interview with the helicopter ahead. He had exchanges with neighbors before Serino interviewed him on 20:12 as the first witness, clearly outside. Meaning he has been around and watching.

        Interestingly the transcript of the MOM crowd of his disposal makes what Serino calls an airplane, in MOM’s selective transcript it is a helicopter. Interesting since shortly before Trayvon is declared dead there is the entry on Fire & Rescue stating no helicopters available due to weather. I can’t help but noticing all these minor things, that’s why I would be completely unable to do a fast list like you did above.

        Yes, there could be something shocking surrounding this witness and FDLE tries to irritate him slightly with Bachelor as the main interviewer and his colleague hawking distinctively in the background. Some minor things are odd. All in all, I will celebrate you all, but I am not sure if it justifies a larger suspicion. I never liked John too much, I was in fact slightly prejudiced against him, but there you go. I don’t see him in one of the more vicious scenario, I can’t help.

        I surely will celebrate you all if it turns out to be true. And will admit that your perception of reality is superior to mine. 😉 I promise.

      • leander22 says:

        I didn’t close the italics, but this is wrong. O’Mara managed to confuse me with his partial transparency sold as transparency:

        he has assumed in his later interview with the helicopter airplane ahead.

      • stupidity should be painful says:

        Could John be the man in light colored tee-shirt standing with the group of officers at crime scene? Is this the Asian man who provided plastic bag to cop to do CPR?

  52. Malisha says:

    But Jon might not have called that same cell phone number that Fogen was carrying that night. He might have called the number given by the HOA newsletters to “inform NW” of any goings on; but remember also that the first call was supposed to be to the police. Whenever Fogen made himself the clearinghouse — we don’t know — but he obviously did that.

    I agree with Professor’s six scenarios and also believe that it is a combination of more than one of them that reveals the real situation.

    Professor, is it true that rebuttal evidence being prepared in case there is an affirmative defense need not be revealed in the pretrial discovery? If that is so, then I would bet that there are several witness statements that we have not even heard about because they will not be revealed (they would cause way too much public outrage at what SPD had done) unless (a) there actually IS a trial and Fogen actually DOES try to go the “self-defense” route; and/or (b) there is a SYG hearing and evidence needs to be presented that makes it clear that the story told by Fogen is nowhere near a “preponderance.”

    BTW, my personal belief is that a real investigation into the March 1, 2012 HOA meeting from which Billy Lee escorted a homeowner OUT (for insisting that Fogen should not have been allowed to keep patrolling with a loaded gun) would reveal the answers to all these questions. But on March 1, 2012, there had not been a real groundswell of publicity about the case yet, and the SPD and the HOA both thought they would be able to keep this whole thing under wraps. They probably thought there was plenty of “dirt” out there on Trayvon and his parents so that they could simply arrange to have all the survivors “taken care of” and no real protest would develop. I have seen plenty of commenters say things like that: that Trayvon was no saint, no “choirboy,” and so it was perfectly all right to kill him and Fogen was well within his rights — not even trying to support the idea that the killing was self-defense. Just like it was a form of neighborhood cleansing. A truly Nazi attitude. “Get the undesirables out by any means necessary. Oh and Fogen gets to decide who’s an undesirable.”

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The pro-Fogen supporters who feel that n***** had it coming need a good mind cleansing. Truly disgusting.

      • ladystclaire says:

        They are disgusting and they get worse with each passing day. Trayvon’s skin color is the only reason that these *ignorant* people are supporting Fogen because, they will never accept black people in this country. it’s very shameful that this is the year of our LORD, 2013 and we still have this kind of BS to contend with.

        Had Trayvon been white, those very people would be asking for the dp for the POS who they think is half white which he is not. Trayvon was a child just like those in Newtown were. be it 6 or 17, a child is a child and, anyone under the age of 18 is a child.

        Trayvon was also a *HUMAN BEING* as well as a child of GOD. these people have no shame and they definitely have no *MORALS* about them and that is very telling by the way they talk about this deceased child and his family. I can’t help but wonder how many people who are of the mind set that, Trayvon got what he deserved, have since had a family member of their own killed by gun violence. they are out there but, we will never know who they are.

    • “Professor, is it true that rebuttal evidence being prepared in case there is an affirmative defense need not be revealed in the pretrial discovery?”

      Yes, the prosecution does not have to disclose rebuttal witnesses and evidence until they put on their rebuttal case.

      The reason for that rule is the prosecution’s rebuttal case is limited to rebutting the evidence presented by the defense. Therefore, the defense has to put on a case for the prosecution to have something to rebut.

      • looneydoone says:

        Might those who made calls to alert the fogen of Trayvon’s whereabouts be considered accessories ?

        I ask, because a friend was murdered during a botched kidnapping for ransom last year. To date, 8 persons have been arrested, and are being held on $10 million bond (each). Not all 8 were present when the attempted kidnapping took place, but were involved with tracking my friend’s whereabouts.

    • kimmi says:

      Malisha says:
      HOA meeting from which Billy Lee escorted a homeowner OUT (for insisting that Fogen should not have been allowed to keep patrolling with a loaded gun)

      His there been any word on ‘who’ it was Billy Lee escorted out?
      I would really like to know who that was…

      • Malisha says:

        I FOIA’d that information from the SPD and they pretended they had nothing whatsoever on that. They pretended that Chief Lee attended a meeting and did not even make a memorandum of it. They pretended there was absolutely no record of either his attendance at the meeting or what happened there. And Frances Robles from the Miami Herald was not the least bit interested in following up on that story about the March 1 meeting. My My My My My My My, as the song says.

      • leander22 says:

        Malisha quite possibly it was not recorded. Police officers hat to write reports sometimes. Maybe it is fun to be chief knowing you only have to manage SPD and they have to do a job, you just like them didn’t like too much either.

        I assume it was an informal matter for the police. They informed the people there, what had happened and asked for assistance concerning witnesses.

        Robles may be very, very much interested if you offer her this person on a silver plate. Strictly that he was the dissenter shows us the sentiment in RTL. Was he black incidentally? What exactly made him mad?

        Do you remember where you read about it. Was it an article, by whom, where?

      • leander22 says:

        Strictly that he was the lonely/only dissenter, that was meant to be.
        And higher up hat means hate. 😉 I tried to be as fast as I think you are.

      • Malisha says:

        Leander, no, what happened at the meeting was that Chief Lee was there to do DAMAGE CONTROL and make sure witnesses were NOT saying what he didn’t want to hear. THe person who was escorted out had been complaining about Fogen’s armed “patrols” and had called the police repeatedly. He or she was “escorted out” to silence him or her. It was a “strong-arm” meeting. It was not avoidance of paperwork that caused it to not be recorded; it was part of the cover-up so they deliberately avoided creating a record of it. They had that meeting to intimidate witnesses, not to find them.

      • kimmi says:

        Malisha says:
        “I FOIA’d that information from the SPD and they pretended they had nothing whatsoever on that.” (the meeting)

        “The person who was escorted out had been complaining about Fogen’s armed “patrols” and had called the police repeatedly. He or she was “escorted out” to silence him or her.” (the calls)

        I wonder if its possibe to FOIA the calls this person made re: Fogen, and find out that way? It seems like there should be a record of the complaints this person made about Fogen somwhere. Then again, who knows, maybe those calls got ‘lost?’
        Which after what I have seen so far, wouldn’t suprise me.

      • sdunn5 says:

        This is to kimmi…..freedom of information in my opinion is Federal. Perpetuating facts not in evidence i.e. Bill Lee escorting…huh where did you get that information. I think you owe it to this blog to answer that question. I know you wont !!

      • Malisha says:

        OK, Kimmi and Sdunn5, here’s what I know:

        1. In March last year, two or three news sources reported that there was a HOA meeting on March 1, 2012 and that Chief Lee and one member of the city council attended. The news report also said that a person was “escorted out of the meeting” because that person had been upset that he or she had made complaints (PLURAL) to the police about Fogen “patrolling with a loaded gun.” The person was apparently “escorted out” of the meeting by Chief Lee and the member of the city council. I guessed that it was Patty Mahaney.

        2. In October I FOIA’d from the SPD all the information they had about that meeting and Chief Lee’s attendance and who had complained; I got nothing. I also FOIA’d ALL COMPLAINTS that had EVER been made about Fogen whether by HOA members, by residents, by anyone whatsoever for any reason ever. All I got was that someone phoned in in September 2011 saying that a guy came to their house carrying a clipboard and asking questions “but would not show i.d.”

        They pretend there was no note, no report, no memo, no documentation of any sort. You can be sure that this is because before Chief Lee left, he sanitized everything to protect himself. This thing was getting too big for him to control. Then Patty Mahaney had several little temper tantrums and learned it was even too big for HER to control. Boo hoo.

        But they won’t give any information. I hope the FDLE or the Feds have found out who exactly attended that meeting. One of the people who was there will have a very incendiary story to tell.

        I’ll look to see if I can still find those articles on-line. I don’t TRY to avoid giving citations; I just don’t have time and organization like I used to have. I don’t mean to irritate anybody.

      • kimmi says:

        Thank you Malisha!
        I found the link to the article and posted it for sdunn5

    • stupidity should be painful says:

      Could John be one with a white tee shirt? Could he in the heat of the moment have tried to help GZ restrain the guy? That could explain his lies. He is worthless as a witness with all of the stuttering and stammering.

  53. OJ's glove says:

    good rational.. very possible

  54. blushedbrown says:

    Excellent post as always, be back later to comment.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Fascinating post covering much ground, professor … fitting nicely with the age-old: “Though the mills of God grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding(ly) small; Though with patience He stands waiting, with exactness grinds He all.”

      If W6 has not turned state’s evidence yet for any of the above outlined reasons, it bohooves him to do so soon.

    • ladystclaire says:

      I agree and before it’s all over except for the shouting, I hope there will be charges leveled at those who lied for the POS. it’s no doubt that these people, Jon, Jeremy, and Jeremy’s old lady are holding back and not telling all they know. these people lied also because, they were sure of themselves that nothing was going to come of this murder. they just didn’t know who they were messing with in that respect. Fogen just knew he had it made with his false claim of self defense when he walked out of that PD in the early morning hours of 02/27/2012. these people should be held accountable for what they have done as well as Fogen himself.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Yes … Fogen’s chest likely puffed up proud (more than his nose)when he departed the PD and headed home where he could strut about and accept congrats and thanks for ridding the neighborhood of a vicious presence up to no good. Fortunately, that didn’t long. I wonder when it was (or even if) he began to realize that the tables were turning and witnesses were beginning to crumble.

      • Trained Observer….I don’t think that fogen still believes that the tables are turning and the witnesses are crumbling. Because….as long as the constipated-outhousers and his other racist supporters claim that the prosecution is guilty of witness tampering, evidence tampering, etc….it will bolster his moral and feed into his lies. He will keep believing this until the prosecution slaps him in the face with the undisputed facts.

      • kimmi says:

        I can’t remember off-hand (who?), but why would some of the witnesses be running upstairs to safety so quickly (before the gunshot, IIRC), if they didn’t see a gun, or couldn’t see outside, or know that something was terribly wrong?
        Maybe its just me, but it seems rather strange that some ran for cover so quickly…was that to ‘cover’ their lies, I mean, stories?

      • kimmi….If the witnesses knew that one of the people out there was indeed fogen, then they also knew that he carried a gun with him on NW. They probably were afraid of getting hit if he started to shoot someone.

      • leander22 says:

        kimmi, for what reason that seems to be the RTL basic instinct. In any case it is trying to get as far away from action. Olivia Bertalan also fled upstairs when her house was burglarized. Quite obviously they perceived it as a threat, something that could threaten them too after the fight had stopped.

        John is the point in case. To me it feels he tries to avoid his cowardice by claiming his “finacée” had forbidden him to go outside. I read the MMA style in the same context. To explain why he did not interfere. The feeling upstairs suggests the same thing, he perceived something as a threat that surely was no threat to him.

        I have a different problem with #6 / John. In a way he signaled to Fogen no one would interfere. And if I accept the depraved mind, which I do, he realized he had to act fast.

        What legal consequences would have had an “unauthorized arrest” or “assuming authority in stopping and threatening someone with a gun?” Especially if “we don’t need you to do that” still rings in your ears. If you face a gun, it makes no sense to run away. It makes much sense to keep the guy from shooting.

        Assuming he keeps close to the truth, but modifies it like with Taaffe’s house, what if he pulled his gun, he knew police was already on the way, and not his cell-phone?

      • leander22 says:

        To me it feels he tries to avoid going to far outside out of fear, then tries to cover up his cowardice by claiming his “finacée” had forbidden him to go outside. And heightening the threat with adding the MMA style to explain it to the outside world.

        I hope I have not more unfinished sentences. 😉

      • leander22 says:

        kimmi, for what reason that seems to be the RTL basic instinct.

        what should be whatever

      • ay2z says:

        There’s something else, and for now, it may be something completely different surrounding Jeremy (and as you say, his ‘old lady’). It may turn out that Jeremy was not on another phone, not talking to anyone for any suspicious reason and that should be looked into objectively first.

        Yes, something is being held back, but I have another idea very different from profiling this witness, or the woman on the phone, as any part of the Witness 6 Four or “these people”. There’s a lot more clues to what was going on with the caller and circumstances of their situation, and it could point somewhere completely different than part of any NW doings.

        I’ve an idea of what’s possibly going on with Jeremy and if that’s correct, add one more reason to delay the trial even further, because LLMPapa’s observation about ‘he warned me to […..] you might yet be a critical statement that the defense does not want to come out at trial.

        Another reason the defense will benefit a year’s delay?

        Anyone know where the neighbor with the heart attack lived ?

        Easy to fall into the profiling trap. Then it’s hard to take back in this public world.

      • lsimon3321 says:

        I don’t know about that grey winter sky – I thought I saw lady-paralegal lawyer position herself in front of GZ to shield him from the camera seeing him use his sleeve or a hankerchief to wipe his weeping eyes at the Feb 5 hrg. They left him at the table alone and he just sat there looking at the table. Unless it’s an act, like most of what he does, he sees himself in prison and it hurtsss like he can’t imagine. I like that it’s him crying now.

        • cielo62 says:

          Isimon~ maybe GZ is going for the “pity” vote. “See? You mean ol’ bullies made him cry! Even decent ‘Mericans can be brought to tears by the machinatios of Crump and his cruel buddies!”

    • ay2z says:

      John 6 seemed to be aware of what constituted suspicious clothing at night, even if his NW shooter was not willing to admit this to Serino during questioning. John 6 described Trayvon’s clothing as a ‘BLACK OUTFIT”. He backtracked a little, but clearly someone wearing ‘all black’ aka, typical nighttime thugwear, was something familiar to him.

      An ‘outfit’ is not typically used to describe only a shirt.

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