Why Has the Defense Team Gone Silent in the Trayvon Martin Murder Case?

Wednesday, January 23, 2013

Good morning everyone. The defense team finally appears to be doing something that makes sense. They have stopped talking. Therefore, I do not have much to report.

The Orlando Sentinel has reported that the defense deposed John (W6) on December 17 and recently deposed Mary Cutcher and Selma Mora. The defense also reported on its website recently that it had received Trayvon Martin’s school records. I have not seen any reports regarding the defense reaction to those records and the depositions.

I imagine that the absence of commentary by the defense is due to the lack of anything bad to say about the prosecution’s case that has not already has been said and refuted.

I suspect the defense team is in turmoil because it’s running out of money and cannot afford to retain investigators and expert witnesses. The recent lawsuit filed by the company that provided security and investigation services against the defendant, his wife and Mark O’Mara to recover damages for breach of contract has placed every other service provider in the area on notice not to do business with O’Mara unless they get a substantial retainer up front adequate to cover the anticipated fees and costs. I doubt O’Mara can do that.

Meanwhile, there must be substantial and increasing resentment within the team regarding the amount of money spent for housing, feeding and protecting the defendant and his wife against an unlikely threat to their safety. I never have believed that a credible threat existed. Instead, I think they grossly overplayed the threat-to-safety and racial-fear cards to curry favor and sympathy with white racists while trolling for dollars on the internet.

The fogen’s incredibly bizarre and ill-advised claim that he is not a racist because he is part Hispanic makes no sense and it cost him the support of white racists who were the group most likely to support him. After all, this is the guy who used his My Space page to hate on Mexicans and consistently described himself as white before he killed Trayvon. And despite claiming otherwise, he clearly said “fucking coons” while referring to him on the recorded police NEN call. That fact alone blows up his civil suit against NBC.

The loss of financial support by white racists must have been devastating. However, one also must add the additional loss of moral support caused by the fogen’s effort to conceal his financial assets and an extra passport from the court. I imagine that a lot of people interpreted that move as an admission of guilt.

Last, but certainly not least, the fogen told the nation on the Hannity show that he did not regret killing Trayvon and would not do anything different, if he had the opportunity to do so because it was God’s Plan for Trayvon to die. Apparently convinced that he was riding a tsunami of public support because of his stellar performance on the show, he promptly overreached when he attempted to change his agreement with Barbara Walters at the last minute by refusing to be interviewed unless she persuaded her network to pay for a month lodging in a hotel for him and his wife, plus the cost of the security team to keep them safe. Apparently he did not get the memo that nobody does that to Barbara Walter. She basically told him to go pound sand.

Although the fogen finally shut-up, he had caused irreversible damage to his defense. No reason to panic, however. His formerly estranged brother, Robert Jr., stepped into the breach to save the day. Billing himself as the spokesperson for the family and voice of reason, he attempted to put out fogen’s fire by pouring gasoline on it with predictable results. They might have been manageable and excused as an understandable overreaction to a beloved brother’s plight, if only he had stayed out of the minibars in his hotel rooms. His epic drunken late night rages on twitter revealed a damned unpleasant and clueless racist with whom no sensible and empathetic person of any race anywhere on the planet would want to associate.

Given the extreme financial predicament and ongoing clown show, I suspect raised voices, finger pointing and extreme resentments are threatening to tear apart the defense team.

I do not see the fogen admitting that he did anything wrong and I suspect his lawyers have just about run out of patience, especially if they have been working pro bono as they claim.

No one had to be a psychic to see this train coming. I am actually surprised they have maintained the appearance of being on the same page and working together pursuing an agreed strategy toward a common goal.

Do not be surprised if the engine starts smoking and the wheels fall off forcing someone to announce that they have decided they need to spend more time with their family.

246 Responses to Why Has the Defense Team Gone Silent in the Trayvon Martin Murder Case?

  1. xy11xy says:

    Zahra Umansky, an attorney who repped GZ in 2005, said GZ was very “proactive” in his defense; so, George definitely is meddling in THIS case.

    Here’s the video of Zahra and Soledad O’Brien:

  2. TommysMom says:

    This is one great blog! I’ve been away from it for several days and trying to catch up. I took a fall a week or so ago,which at my “tender” age is no fun. So now I’m back and have a question or two.
    How can W6 claim Z was on his back on the ground when his jacket was so clean in those pics at the station?
    If Z’s claim of indigence is approved how will that effect Shellie’s lawyer?

    ellejay so that means MOM can’t pull out?

    An amendment went into effect this month in Florida that bans judges from appointing attorneys where an indigent client has already retained and paid a lawyer. Experts said the idea is to prevent a private attorney from pulling out once a client’s money runs out.”

  3. colin black says:

    We were able to veiw all the depos dureing the Anthony trial.

    Many many depos by cindy george lee an witnesses alleged searchers like that crazt L Buchcanan searched for Caylee for one day.
    An caused havoc a female version of fogen.
    First off claims a sighting of a live Caylee at a theme park.
    Next day searches Alllllegedly for Caylee at exact location where body was iscovered an there was no body.
    Only crazed tail stood on alligaters attacking her.
    Am telling you her depos via skype an in person are doozies,
    So I think we will eventually get to read everyones depos,.
    Unless they depose weezee ,,junior roberto or robert depending on what day of the week it is.
    Thats one depo I wont rush to read.
    Laura Buchcanans enough raveings of looneytune for me…
    Anyone else wish foggen had dated Jodi Arias?

  4. Tee says:

    Sorry for the misspell, typing on an iPad, auto correct is annoying.

  5. whonoze says:


    Will the Sunshine Law and reciprocal discovery require the defense to make public the witness depositions they have taken in the last couple months?

    They deposed JohnW6 and his wife (W17), Jeremy (W20) and his wife (W11). Selma (W16) and Mary (W5), and TeacherW18. They even deposed Austin McLendon’s (W14) Mother (W4) and sister (W15). I have no idea what’s up with that. Oddly, not on the list yet are JonW13 and his wife (W12), or either of the sisters W! and W2.

    I’m really curious more about what kind of questions they ask, and whether they are more thorough than the police or SAO (wouldn’t take much). Not expecting any big changes in anyone’s story, but could be some interesting small details.

  6. SearchingMind says:

    O’Mara is silent – with good reasons. I think he might have been reading Professor’s articles and asking himself the questions: what happened to me? what have I become? How could I let things get so bad? What could I have done differently? What can I still do differently? O’Mara might be realizing that the O’Mara we are now used to is not the same O’Mara that presented himself to the public at the beginning of this process. He is now reflecting and cogitating. But, maybe, not for long. For, soon the crazies at the Conservativedoghouse will start breathing really hard down his neck demanding red meat. The question would then be: does O’Mara have the spiritual fortitude and mental strength to stand his ground, be the gentleman that is inherent in his nature, or will he get intimidated and turn nasty each time the crazies start beating the drums of war demanding his head.

    • Tee says:

      I doubt he is asking himself any of those questions. He started this social media outlet for X with the intent on doing just what he have been doing the entire time, poisoning the jury. MOM, knew that this case was going to trail after he heard those 911 recordings along with non emergency call X made, this was methodically planned trust me this man is no fool.

    • Rachael says:

      SearchingMind, you are way too kind. I don’t believe O’Mara is doing anything of the sort. One can wish though.

    • seallison says:

      OMara opened the door and saw what was happening because of it. Yet, he has done nothing to stop it. In my opinion, he is out of his league and has been taking guidance wherever he can find it — including the family. GZs first lawyers (the ones he denies) are NRA members and I would not doubt they are working with Senior. Senior is the one that called them to represent fogen. I think daddy is leading the whole racism, gun rights thing.

  7. Jun says:

    This case reminds me of a Dave Chapelle bit, which is meant to be comedy, but I guess Fogen took it serious

    In his stand up, he makes jokes that police always pin everything on the black guy, and the police will sprinkle crack on the dead black guy and then run off

    and then

    Fogen tries his own version of sprinkling crack on a dead black guy

    Is it just me, or was Fogenhats slurring his speech?

    He described Trayvon as a “Billlack-ah-ah-kkk Male-ah-ah|”

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Jun said: Is it just me, or was Fogenhats slurring his speech?

      He described Trayvon as a “Billlack-ah-ah-kkk Male-ah-ah|”

      I mentioned this before. After reading all those posts about how GZ sounds on the NeN call, I didn’t think much of it. I kind of figured it was just his normal speech pattern, altered a bit to add emphasis. Then I came across audio files of other 911 and NeN calls GZ made, and I noted how remarkable clear his voice actually is. There are no trailing sounds, no rolling R’s and no drawls. Just crisp clear almost pear shaped vowels and such.

      That’s when you begin to realize that GZ had to be on either drugs, alcohol or both that night. Probably both. Although some are trying to say they don’t think he drank, I would have to say he did.

      That means that the lead in to the Feb 26th activities are unlike any other patrol GZ has ever done. So, what would be the reason for such a drastic change? Why only on this one night and not the many other nights? What of all the other strange things that happen, the multitude of what some are calling coincidences? Coincidence, error, mistakes, bias, on and on, are being used to explain away artifacts that make it appear that GZ has some one or others with him that night. Sorry, one or even two coincidences or favorable errors, mistakes I could see, but there’s too many here to buy into GZ acting alone. His assistants were simply clever enough to remain out of sight. It really appears that this was a premeditated initiation.

  8. creepytwins says:

    Professor – Were you ever in a situation like O’Mara in which your funds went dry and if so how did you handle it?

  9. seallison says:

    Talking about weed…………….

    I don’t think people realize just how much tax revenue is generated by people who smoke tobacco products. As time goes on and the smoking habit is considered socially unacceptable, people are quitting or not starting the habit. (I am a smoker, BTW).

    The taxes paid are not what they used to be and there needs to be something to take up the slack.

    If the government were to legalize marijuana and manage it just as they do with alcohol, think of the tax money that would be created. Think of the jobs that would be created. As far as I am concerned, it is a win-win all around.

    I remember when gambling was illegal just about everywhere. Then, the government realized just how much money is made and gambling is everywhere now. No one likes to talk about the addictions with gambling or alcohol and there is alot of abuse with consequential ruination of a person and his or her family, etc.

    So, we will hear the same arguments as with gambling and smoking, and drinking.

    • cielo62 says:

      seallison~ I agree with you 100%. You can’t enforce morality, but you CAN tax and license it! Add prostitution to that, and you take the Black Market incentive out of it.

    • groans says:

      The anti-smoking (tobacco) crusade is understandable from a public health standpoint, but has always seemed short-sighted from a financial standpoint.

      The more it succeeds, the more tobacco tax revenue is lost (and presumably revenue sources will need to be boosted by new taxes on everyone, including non-smokers).

      Also, the more it succeeds, the more revenue will be needed – to support many more people lwho will live longer on Social Security and Medicare, with Medicare paying more for typical elderly care needs for all those years PLUS some terminal illness, which will arise at some point.

      I know folks insist that prohibiting smoking “saves” healthcare dollars, but I’ve never seen any math proving such. It seems to me that someone who dies in their 60’s due to chronic smoking is less of a burden on society, because they pay for their own healthcare their whole lives (and for ours, by their Social Secuiry and Medicare contributions), and don’t require much, if any, of our collective Social Security or Medicare funds.

      Definitely not a “popular” position … but I’ve never been convinced that we’re doing our society any FINANCIAL favors by insisting that everybody stop smoking!

      • cielo62 says:

        groans~ what a pragmatic, Machiavellian argument! It’s repulsive morally, but then again, money has no morals.  Anyway, humans have such an array of vices, I’m sure we can tax other bad habits we have!  🙂

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Prohibitions don’t work, except in certain circumstances, where demand isn’t all that high and supply is too difficult. As far as abuse, everything gets abused, you name it and someone is abusing it. You don’t outlaw food simply because people over eat.

      @seallison: I too am a smoker, too many years I couldn’t stop. I just tried one of these new electric cigarettes and it’s worked, I’m using something called Eonsmoke.com so, just to let you know there’s something you might give a try. I doubt it will work for everyone. But, maybe it can help you get your smoking down to a more manageable level. Be well.

  10. Eric says:

    I am sure everybody has heard this from the fogen supporters but what are the chances of a immunity hearing for fogen let alone succeed getting immunity?

  11. thejbmission says:

    Thank you Professor for this article. Again, you’ve hit the nail on the head. It was kind of nice going to down memory lane reminding us of fogen’s stupidity.
    And I’m sure O’Mara hasn’t forgotten about that close call with the passport. I was embarrassed for O’Mara, although I’m sure it was an eye opener for him; his relationship with his client wasn’t a good one then and I’m sure it hasn’t improved, especially now that his money is running out. 🙂 Gotta luv that!

  12. Jun says:

    I just had an epiphany

    The Fogenhats family use of claiming to be hispanic and black, as if that means they are not racist, is a way for them to say that all white people are racist, as that is how they perceive the white people

    • Xena says:

      Junior went on the “My family is not racist” diatribe for the sake of competition. Trayvon’s parents have setup a foundation. There were over 2 million signatures on the petition for GZ’s arrest. One dollar each is 2 million dollars. Junior can’t stand the thought that there are people who care that much for justice for Trayvon.

      So, he tries to convince Blacks that his family is Black; and tries to convince Latinos that his family is Hispanic in effort to get a slice of the pie — because Whites are giving his brother enough money.

  13. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    There’s so much I’d like to know, having followed this far. I want to see Fogen’s phone and text records, I want to see the results of the fiber analysis– I want to see what analysts found on that 911 recording! I want to hear the post-trial analysis, I want to know everything. Am so grateful to the careful analysis done by the Prof and his students on this blog.

    I do too, Cercando Luce

  14. kenteoth says:

    The defense is silent because they know they have no chance of winning. They know Trayvon’s school records are clean and they know that no one will support this heartless child killer no more and I hope that the defense advises their client to do a plea change to GUILTY!

    • Cercando Luce says:

      There’s so much I’d like to know, having followed this far. I want to see Fogen’s phone and text records, I want to see the results of the fiber analysis– I want to see what analysts found on that 911 recording! I want to hear the post-trial analysis, I want to know everything. Am so grateful to the careful analysis done by the Prof and his students on this blog.

      (I even want to know what on earth Jr’s motivation has been to be so public in defense of his brother when the 2 are alleged not to have been on speaking terms for year beforehand.)

      But that’s dumb wants on my part; may real justice, 100% full, true, real justice be done for this innocent juvenile

  15. colin black says:

    In that case seems I got that law ass backwards.
    Since its paid attornys not allowed to bail if client becomes indigent.

    Could this be why M O M insists he hasnt received a dime.
    So he can have the option to leave .
    After all I could work for some one an get paid twenty thousand pounds.
    Could return home an tell my wife I never received a penny .
    Wich would be a truthfull statement.
    If its revealed that M O M has received payment for lawering stuff then under that law he cant remove his council?

    • Xena says:

      @colin black

      In that case seems I got that law ass backwards. Since its paid attornys not allowed to bail if client becomes indigent.

      I’m not that clear on Florida’s rules for attorney withdrawal. An attorney here can motion to withdraw for the client’s failure to pay. However, O’Mara said that he was taking GZ’s case pro bono. THEN he said that he was going to motion the court to find GZ indigent because the defense fund had diminished. NOW he says that someone needs to drop a million dollars into the defense fund for GZ to receive a “good defense.”

      I don’t see the State finding GZ indigent as long as the defense fund exists, and if it’s dissolved, GZ won’t have money for anything. O’Mara is between a rock and a harder place.

    • Malisha says:

      I think at this point in the proceedings, any lawyer wanting to be removed would have to give a good reason and get Judge Nelson to approve; and it won’t be about money.

    • Jun says:

      Actually Omara was plotting to get paid big, IMO

      (1) He would have known early on about the defendant’s website and paypal

      (2) When he heard how much their was, he reported it to the court, so he could retain control of the money, therefore getting paid

      (3) He publicly asked for a million dollars, and probably trolled the internet a few times, claiming the case would cost millions to do so

      His claim to work pro bono was a load of crap and he knows it, considering his actions but I do not blame him as if I had to lawyer for that bozo, I would want to get paid as well

      And if he was smart, he would have gotten paid and then gotten a plea bargain and then the whole thing is over and done with and he would get paid for doing little work (he has not done much work in regards to the case anyways, except try the case in the media)

      • Xena says:


        His claim to work pro bono was a load of crap and he knows it, considering his actions but I do not blame him as if I had to lawyer for that bozo, I would want to get paid as well

        I’m going to give O’Mara the benefit of the doubt in one regard; i.e., he said that he was setting aside $27,000 for GZ’s living expenses. That conveys that O’Mara assumed that the then current balance, and any forthcoming donations, would pay costs and legal fees.

        Then GZ’s bond was revoked, and GZ got all paranoid and required 24/7 security with a separate hotel room and residence in an extended stay hotel. IMO, he may have intentionally convinced O’Mara to arrange for that in order to prevent there being money to pay legal fees.

        What I’m trying to say is that O’Mara assumed that GZ would live within the budget of $27,000, but GZ did not.

  16. Valerie says:

    Pound sand! Lol! Thanks for the laugh Professor excellent article

  17. Valerie says:

    Pound sand! ! Thanks for the laugh!! Excellent article.

  18. I haven’t finished reading your new post yet, but i wanted to write this down before i forget! (just say no to excessive weed kids)

    just a minute ago Ryan on HLN made a ridiculous comment regarding the GZ Defense team.
    He said basically * the Defense will not be using Trayvon’s school records to demonize him. They will only use what is relevant to the self defense case*.

    that’s IT!?!?
    was that necessary? was that just another BS attempt at doing exactly what they said they were NOT going to? YES!!

    • ladystclaire says:

      Hi Shannoninmiami, when it comes to Ryan Smith on HLN, me don’t care for him at all. he IMO likes to straddle both sides of the fence, just like JVM. the black female attorney Sunny Hostin is like that also. we all know exactly why the defense wanted Trayvon’s school records and I don’t think they should have been allowed to have access to them at all.

      Trayvon Benjamin Martin is not the one on trial here in the first place. Fogen murders this kid in cold blood and, then he wants to put him on trial for his own death. there is something very wrong with the way this case is being handled and, the judge needs to put a stop to some of the things that the defense is doing.

      BTW, I wonder why ShelLie is being permitted to keep having her hearing put off every time she is suppose to appear before the court. there is something not right there as well. I thought this judge didn’t allow a lot of that sort of thing to go on in her courtroom. it’s been almost a year, give or take a few months since she *LIED* in a court of law and, she has not been before any judge yet. this kind of BS should not be permitted when it comes to things such as this.

      • Malisha says:

        Something tells me that Shellie is not appearing because she really IS afraid to show herself and not because she’s afraid of the NBP party; she’s afraid of FOGEN. I think he must be blaming her for everything. Think of him in cold turkey, not allowed to dominate a little gated community any more with his trusty side-arm and his dog; not allowed to drive around patrolling with his lights off; not allowed to call the police twice a week with his sissy-ass complaints. Think of it. He’s going bonkers there and there’s only one person left to blame.

        Also, I think there will be a motion before the February hearing. They can always just concoct something. There’s very likely something to whine about if you want to whine; that’s the way of our court system, in this best of all possible worlds.

        I’m not betting that O’Mara’s gonna try to get off. I’m betting he’s gonna come into court asking for more time. Fogen’s PTSD, you know.

      • you know i have the same vibe about Ryan!! he’s acts weird when he mentions this case and he doesn’t talk much about it!! i’m so glad you said that!

        and sonny too, she swings both fences too! i wonder is it because they’re black and are paranoid??? this is really unbelievable to me! are they really worried about showing biased FOR Trayvon- the INNOCENT VICTIM???!!

        something is so wrong when people are attacking the character of a kid who was murdered, and then the media is involved.. it’s very scary.

        btw, with shellies case, it is so normal to have delay after delay in cases like this. this is not a serious crime in the scheme of the legal system.

    • ellejay says:

      –ryan said pretty much what O’ said on gzlegal.com

      “A number of parties have expressed concern that we will use information found in the school records to “demonize” Trayvon Martin. The Zimmerman defense has no intention to demonize Trayvon Martin. While we believe that George Zimmerman has been unjustly demonized as a racist and a murderer by those who saw benefit in doing so, nothing would justify a reciprocal attack on the character and memory of Trayvon Martin.”

      “Trayvon Martin’s school records are protected, and they should not become part of the public record. We will not post them on our website. If any detail of the school records should be considered relevant in the course of a Self-Defense Immunity Hearing, only the parts deemed relevant to the case will be entered into evidence.”

      –(which of course translates to—if/when we can find something–“any detail”!– to use against trayvon in those records—damn right we’re going to use that against him.)–but in the meantime he tries to sound like they are taking some sort of high road…..nice try O’.

      • whonoze says:

        OK, is there a difference between a Self-Defense Immunity Hearing and a SYG hearing? What’s the deal with this Immunity Hearing MO’M is talking about? How could GZ get immune?

        And how could ANYTHING Trayvon did at school in Miami Gardens have anything to do with establishing a claim of self-defense in Sanford. Are they fishing for that bus-driver story? Nothing Trayvon did, good or bad, is going to establish to any degree of certitude what he did on 2/26/12. Unless the defense has witness testimony or forensics that establish TM was a threat to GZ at that place and time, then all they have is GZ’s version of events. And I think we’ve establlished what’s that’s worth.

        • Xena says:


          OK, is there a difference between a Self-Defense Immunity Hearing and a SYG hearing? What’s the deal with this Immunity Hearing MO’M is talking about? How could GZ get immune?

          O’Mara admitted that SYG does not apply to GZ. The reason is because with SYG, if the defendant initiated the situation, and is losing the fight, he/she must remove themselves — walk away — stop. He/she may also tell the other person that they want to quit fighting. He/she cannot pull a weapon and use to win the fight. Thus, O’Mara conveyed that GZ initiated the situation.

          What O’Mara said when announcing that he would proceed on a traditional claim of self-defense, is that GZ did not have opportunity to remove himself because Trayvon had him pinned to the ground.

          Well, that isn’t true because in order for GZ’s gun to be exposed, it means that his body was free from the hips up. GZ’s arms and hands were also free.

          There are some articles written by lawyers saying that traditional self-defense is more difficult to prove than SYG. Their opinions are pretty much in agreement with each other that although the reasonable person standard applies, traditional self-defense against an unarmed person generally requires life-threatening injuries.

        • cielo62 says:

          The only immunity that GZ can get is from a flu shot.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Good question, whonoze……I hope the Professor answers this for us.

        I bet you noticed what I posted under your Dylan link. Did you notice what the commentator whom I quote said? 🙂

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Whonoze, f course, I mean the commentator that I quote before the Dylan lyrics—not the poster (Hillel) that I mention in my second post there.

      • yeah really! so NOW they are NOT trying to demonize Trayvon?? get real!

        btw omar. of course you’re NOT gonna post them on the website you fool! your not allowed!!!

      • Jun says:

        I have always felt the school records, twitter, facebook, requests have been outright silly, and nothing more than infringing on another’s rights

        I mean, why is Omara’s twitter and facebook not being used for the trial? I mean his character is important, since he is representing a defendant, and if he is not of good character, than they should use his twitter as well

        But let’s play Zidiot fantasy and say they find some nonsense about Trayvon the black dynamite

        Fogenhats has loads of terrible history of violence, so he would look more than capable of violence than Trayvon, as well as instigating such situations

        Trayvon has many people who will speak out for his character, and the witnesses will have grand reputations that their credibility is excellent as well

        so if you do the math, Fogenhats will just look more capable of being the one instigating the situation and lying and manipulating

    • Jun says:

      LMAO, yeah right

      all Omara has tried to do is try the case in the media, dox the wrong people, and demonize Trayvon

    • seallison says:

      (just say no to excessive weed kids)

      Too funny!

  19. FactsFirst says:

    Where in the world is Malisha??? I love reading her comments… I’m like a base head over here waiting on her to comment… SMDH..

    • Malisha says:

      FactsFirst, I’m sorry. I have been in a kind of energy crisis recently but I do read and follow. I have commented today at several points. 😀

  20. Jun says:

    They have been fairly silent since that one hearing in December, where Bernie was not in agreement with the Fogenhats campaign, and he let them know in open court, when Fogenhats tried his new bond thinger order

    Omara has not been totally silent though as he keeps complaining about Crump’s recording, and is asking for any alleged ABC tape there is

    I do not know if ABC has a tape, or if the tape is just what they aired by interviewing her for the show…

    or the tape they aired, was using Bernie’s interview with that witness, because I believe Bernie interviewed her around March 20th, and the ABC thing aired on March 20th or 21st, because the tape of what they aired sounded similar to what Bernie had gotten out of his interview

    Omara states there is a starts and stops on the Crump recording but at the same time I do remember Bernie and FDLE state that they will only take from Crump’s recording device, the material relevant to the case, since his device had other recordings on it, and the only way to get a tape off the device, is a recording of a recording

  21. Lonnie Starr says:

    Way too funny, good work Professor two thumbs up.

    • @Professor:

      Great work Professor! When this case was just starting, 98.7 Kiss here in NYC, took their show to Florida and several calls were TM’s school mates. Michael Baisden is the DJ on 98.7 KISS and he interviewed several young teens who knew TM. Some were sad and were crying, and some were saying on what a real nice guy he was. He was not the least bit confrontational with anyone. Even his teachers called in, and said what a good student he was, and how he wasnted to focus on college and a career,so he stopped playing football for a while. MOM has no case, and he found nothing in those school records whre TM displayed any anger or instigated any fights with any of his school mates. That is what MOM was looking for. He already knows that TM had no police record at all. MOM has no defense and he has no case. Peace now.

  22. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Didn’t we hear that O’Mara was going to submit a motion before the next hearing?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Here is what is read from O’Mara…….”Jan 7, 2013 – The next hearing is scheduled for February 5, and we anticipate there will be new motions put before the court in advance of that hearing date.”

      • ladystclaire says:

        I guess one of those motions will be asking the judge to move the start of Fogen’s trial up a couple of months. just you all wait and see, this POS will be trying to delay the start of this trial for as long as he can. he knows his fat ass is in a sling and, his freedom what little there is, is coming to an end.

        It really angers me that he was allowed to bond out of jail for a second time. I have never heard of this being done before this case.

    • groans says:

      According to his web site, he’s filed or filing a motion to subpoena documents and A/V from ABC; to be heard 2/5/13.

  23. karenleah-yes-Im-finally-posting! says:

    This is the best youve published since the beginning when this godawful man murdered an innocent child.
    Thats not to say anything bad about your other posts–not at all! Ive read every single word youve written on this (& all of everyones comments too). You all inspired me to start my own facebook page, just to be sure everyone I know got pointed back to here.
    Anyhow, Mr Leatherman? PLEASE DO write mmore when you say you have nothing new to comment on!

    • karenleah-yes-Im-finally-posting! says:

      By the way, yesterdays post was excellent too– It brought tears to my eyes 😦
      I just dont get why our world/most people are so damn SELFISH and mean.

      • seallison says:

        Hi karenleah!

        Sad, but true.

        I try not to dwell on the ugliness in this world and choose to focus on the beauty before me. There are times, however, when one must pull their head out of the sand and face some of the realities.

        As they say, no man (or woman) is an island. In everything we do, we must understand that our decision affects others and we must strive to do no harm in all that we do.

  24. colin black says:

    Trained Observer says:

    January 23, 2013 at 3:08 pm

    Thank you, professor, for the succinct round-up on where things are and how they got there for this lying defendent whose chicken do seem to be coming home to roost with the depositions. Quick question: Should O’Mara and other defense attorneys on the team develop a sudden need to attend to personal matters, is it up to Judge Nelson to appoint a public defender? If so, does the defendent (who presumably has no dough to line up his own) get to turn thumbs up or down on the Judge’s appointment choice? And, finally, wouldl this be a good enough excuse to delay trial? Thanks in advance.


    Wasnt some law passed in Florida dureing the trunkmom murder of CAYLEE trial.

    I I R C This law was aimed at attorneys whom come on board as pro bono.
    Trying to ditch there client at a later piont when funds evaporate .
    Not applicable to them as lack of funds no problem to a bro bono client wich is allegedlly a cheritble act an not for profit.

    There were strong rummblings that J Baez haveing milked the case for all the publicity knew it was un winnable.
    An would dump swamphag over board.
    Quicker than you could say Jimmity Cricket a new law was draffet an passed banning an attorney from doing so.

    So wouldnt this also apply to M O M he is an attorney practices in Florida an came on board shouting bro bono?

    • ellejay says:

      hey “cossie”!

      –the amendment (effective july 1, 2010) was actually that a previously retained and PAID (baez had been paid $90,000 at that point, and andrea lyon $20,000—from the ABC $$’s) attorney could not bail once a client (kc) was declared indigent.

      –(which was why andrea bailed out quickly at the last minute on june 30, 2010, while she still could.)

      –from a wesh article (link now broken) at the time.

      “Legal experts said they doubt Baez would even be allowed to withdraw from the case.

      An amendment went into effect this month in Florida that bans judges from appointing attorneys where an indigent client has already retained and paid a lawyer. Experts said the idea is to prevent a private attorney from pulling out once a client’s money runs out.”

      –which was why linda kenney-baden (who WAS pro bono) was still allowed to withdraw (oct.2010) 3 months after the 07/2010 amendment went into effect.

  25. Judy75201 says:

    This is a very pointed and stinging article. I like it.

  26. kindheart101 says:

    Truly, not meaning to be crude.

    If Z’s “Pro-Boner” defense will prepare him for the many years that await him behind bars……….than maybe O’Mara is doing him some good after all. 🙂

  27. Much needed, Professor. As you say, you can see this trainwreck coming a mile away. The height of hypocrisy is how they try to demonize Trayvon and yet the Zimm family have had their OWN dust-ups with the law. And you pegged Jr. perfectly. He is an arrogant blowhard, racist who seems to want to compete with thugboat for the spotlight. It is one thing if you try to use your brother’s infamy because he was a star gone bad but to try and do it on the back of a murdered child…it really says all you need to know about the wolves who try to convince you they are sheep.

  28. rayvenwolf says:

    I can’t wait for the tantrums and/or nag fest that is gonna start over at the nuthouse. That group more than most have been going on and on and on and on and ON about Trayon’s records. I wish I could personally watch each and everyone one of their faces get broke as reality finally penetrates those thick skullcaps.

    As the saying goes, Silence is Golden. Though at the same time I know something is going to come out of that camp soon that is as ridiculous as all prior announcements.

    • aussiekay says:

      I don’t think reality is strong enough.

      Generally their reaction to it is invent reasons why it is lies and conspiracies and not really reality at all. School records could have been faked by any number of people for any number of reasons, no? black school staff protecting a black thug student?

      • rayvenwolf says:

        Too bad we can’t use a heavy clue by 4. and I am sure someone will spout some nonsense like that. That or they will switch focus to Twitter & Facebook, both of whom I believe have said they aren’t handing over squat without a court order(and good for them). And since money is tight I doubt team coullion can afford to fight them.

    • PYorck says:

      We haven’t seen all the evidence. Some important parts are still missing. For some reason I suspect that if it was more favorable to GZ than what is publicly known, then we would have heard about it.

      I think it is possible that during the trial we will find out that the evidence makes GZ look even worse than anyone realized and that he never had much of a chance.

      I wonder how those people would react if they found out that they had been used.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        Of course. If there had been stacks of incident reports on Trayvon being violent, mouthing off etc etc, they would have shouted it from the rooftops. Have to revive those donations after all.

        If supporters by now have not figured out they have been taken for a ride, its never going to happen.

  29. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I also have a feeling that the NRA does not want gz to be their poster boy.

    • Bahama Mama says:

      I don’t know about that YAHTC…lol…they (NRA) seem a bit “off” lately!
      Most law abiding gun owners definitely DON’T want GZ for their poster boy…they are running away from him AND the SYG law…as quick as they can.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Does “a bit off” = crazed as per that gun nut on Piers Morgan’s show?

      • Bahama Mama says:

        Yes, YAHTC…the Piers Morgan “kerfluffle” is a perfect example of the unreasonable gun nuts out there!
        For the record, I am not against people (like Patrick) that hunt, and want to protect their family, having guns. I do, on the other hand, have a problem with people like GZ “living out his fantasy” of killing the “bad guy”.

      • gblock says:

        Back last spring, I was amazed at how many of the gun enthusiasts did seem to want GZ for their poster boy. They are always so hot on the claim of how gun owners are so responsible. Even with the small amount of information I had back then, it was obvious to me that GZ was a “bad news” guy who exhibited violent behavior related to impulse control problems, obviously not a good candidate for a CCW. But so many of the gun enthusiasts seemed to make the choice to be blind to these problems, not wanting to admit that the issue was there. Perhaps their “elephant in the room”.

    • YvetteEU says:

      LOL Now you made me spit my tea trough my nose 🙂 That was a good 1

    • racerrodig says:

      I think he should be for life, Who else is qualified to get a mass exodus, which is what is needed. Everything backfired on him anyway, so why not. He can’t sell space heaters to Eskimos, what’s the deal.

  30. kindheart101 says:

    I’ve been gone for a couple of days Professor, just got home and read this newest blog…….”Why Has the Defense Team Gone Silent in the Trayvon Martin Murder Case?”

    It made me think of one thing. If you use the last of the milk, do you shake the milk carton…looking for more? No, you throw it away, because it’s empty. You move forward, and purchase a carton you know is full.

    Spot on Professor. O’Mara had sour milk from the beginning. He was just to foolish to turn his back on it, and too proud to state he purchased a “Bad Product!” Heh heh heh…………it’s his loss, no refunds now, and all he can do is move on, and try to gain something profitable from other sources, other than the empty milk carton sitting to his left.

    • In my next post I will discuss the issues Judge Nelson would have to consider in determining whether to grant a motion to withdraw by defense counsel.

      • kindheart101 says:

        I look forward to that.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        That will be interesting and educational.

      • roderick2012 says:

        If O’Mara resigns as council, what is the maximum continuance that you believe Judge Nelson would allow?

      • FactsFirst says:

        YES! I’m looking forward to that Teach… I gotta say, I love all your blogs especially the one where we (not me, I chickened out) wrote opening arguments… We should do closing arguments because that was FUN! It would also be intresting to question/cross-examine some of the more intresting witnesses like W6…. Just to kinda see what type of strategies the defense and prosecution have up their sleeves…. just my thoughts…

      • Trained Observer says:

        Great … looking forward to those issues and your views on how she’ll likely handle given her documented history on the bench.

      • groans says:


      • groans says:

        As a suggestion for a future article, I’d enjoy a discussion about handling “friendly” vs “hostile” witness – as in witnesses being considered “friendly” to a party for some purposes yet “hostile” for other purposes, and how that can play out in convoluted situarions.

        I’m thinking there’s a potential for such “convoluted” witness testimony in this case – particularly if the defense tries to use SPD indecision or conflict as part of its defense.

        (Hope that makes sense….)

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Good analogy, kindheart.

      • kindheart101 says:

        Great to see you YAHTC, and thank you.

        I won’t be on long, I’m tired.

        I also look forward to the Professor letting us know the issues to be considered by Judge Nelson should O’Mara want to withdraw.

        I would also like to know if Z could fire him? What a wonderful source of information this is.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Hi Kindheart……hope you are having a good day.

        Yes, I have learned so much aout legal proceedings from our Professor. I started last spring knowing so little because I have never followed a court case before this one.

      • kindheart101 says:

        @You all have thoughtful comments.

        Although I have followed many trials, I dare say, when put to the jury, some outcomes have shocked me. I like the fact that the Professor helps us understand what the law is. (i.e.. under what circumstances council can withdraw, what can be introduced as evidence, etc.) As far as I know, no one has a crystal ball, and non of us will sit on the jury. Beyond that, we can only hope the jury is selected wisely, all of the facts will be introduced, and Justice will be served for (whom I believe is) the innocent party, walking home, minding his own business.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        This is my hope also, kindheart.

        You mentioned you were tired. Are you feeling okay?

      • kindheart101 says:

        @ YAHTC.

        I’m ok. Just a lot of tests, MRI’s, etc., to test for further nerve damage. I am blessed to have wonderful friends, some who even take off work, to take me to appointments when needed.

        What a caring soul you are.

        Thank you.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Oh, kindheart. I hope everything goes well for you. Is the condition you have fixable?

      • kindheart101 says:

        OH, You all have thoughtful comments.

        Such a sweet, kind person you are.

        I don’t know your age, yet I assume you are younger than I. There comes a time there is no fixable, but, we move on to hoping we can grasp as much life as we can? I haven’t passed yet, so I believe we only have “one” go round in life. Because I know no differently, I will love life, and all it bestows on me, so I can move on, protect and watch over those I care for, for many years to come.

        I will be gone tomorrow also, and won’t be back until late Friday. So I have to say goodnight to everyone.

        God Bless…….and Justice for Trayvon!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        What a great spirit you have, kindheart…….you are a dear and I am so glad we have met here. If I find a special magic wand, I will give it to you.

        Ha! I am a 63 year old granny.

        Love ya!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        My wish would to be able to write a poem to you,kindheart.
        I would dwell upon your giving nature….your laugh…..your insight
        I would tell you how your words of joy and caring make me feel good.
        I would note your advocacy….your strength in speaking up for Trayvon.

        You poetic ability fills me with amazement….your words are heartfelt
        Your words are sincere…..your words are precious in your seeking justice for Trayvon.

        You reach out and touch those who say “hello”
        You return greetings to you with so much more than a “hello”
        Your words touch with an embrace.

        You are a dear person blessing the world, kindheart.

    • Xena says:

      Kindheart101. Here’s an energizing hug filled with all good thoughts for whatever you need. ((((((((((Kindheart101))))))))))

      • kindheart101 says:

        I feel it my friend………..thank you.

        Good night.

      • kindheart101 says:

        I posted this on the open thread also. It’s beautiful, and well worth viewing.


      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I love each and every one of those photographs!!

        There’s fantasy, magic, true nature, oooh…….amazing! I am going to keep that link……maybe print out some of the photos.

        I can’t believe that photo of the dewdrop and the ant. And, those sofas! Wouldn’t it be fun to have one of those in our landscape!

        And the person kissing a lion…..never heard of such a thing!

        (I have a chipmunk friend outside who is hibernating….This last summer she would come running to me from 50 feet away when I called her. She would let me pet her as she ate the shelled almonds I gave her.)

        And, I’d like to have a conversation with that gecko (cameleon?)–he looks as if he has something to say to me.

        And those whimsical houses!

        Thanks so much, kindheart, for posting this link!

      • seallison says:

        YAHTC – Talking about chipmunks – I have been feeding the one chipmunk and several squirrels peanuts daily. It has been extremely cold here (-40F) and I haven’t seen them out and about. Do they really store nuts. I am hoping they do and that is why they are not foraging in these temperatures. I am visualizing them warm and cozy somewhere without a worry about food. Tell me I am right, please.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        They are down in their burrows now, seallison.

        My little chipmunk friend comes to me and eats out of my hand and stuffs her cheeks with with 6 or 7 almonds and then scurries to its hole where it stores them (as well as the sunflower seeds I give her) No doubt she has a great stash for the winter.

      • OMG i love chipmunks!! but i really have a issue with squirrels! i cannot resist them!!! they are so freakin cute i can’t stand myself! kinda like kittens! another weakness of mine.

        yes squirrels do store their nuts but they don’t always find them later!! i’ve made friends with 2 squirrels that would come and eat on my lap and come an crawl in my shirt and cuddle with me! and one even brought her babies to meet me, but when they got older and time for them to move out of the nest, she would beat their asses if she caught me giving them snacks!!
        they get territorial!

      • seallison says:

        I can put my mind at ease then. I will try to get the chipmunk to trust me. Hopefully, she will come closer. We have gray squirrels here. Not as cute as the red ones.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I can’t believe we have a chipmunk threesome among us, seallison and shannon. What fun. The chipmunk girls!

      • seallison says:

        Alvin, Simon, and Theodore!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Well then, we should start singing!

      • seallison says:

        Your wish is my command:

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        🙂 Thanks, seallison! Looks like fun!

  31. Xena says:

    Given the extreme financial predicament and ongoing clown show, I suspect raised voices, finger pointing and extreme resentments are threatening to tear apart the defense team.

    When I read the above, I thought about two guys who were frauds and one of their hit songs, and how they were exposed and suffered the consequences of their fraud.

  32. Donna Flores says:

    John (W6) has now confirmed to the defense team that he saw no MMA style fighting, in fact he couldn’t even tell what the person on top was doing, and couldn’t tell who was yelling for help. The only thing he is certain is that Zimmerman was on the bottom at that percise moment he was observing. THAT’s IT.
    The other witnesses pretty much work for the prosecution.
    It has been a good week!!!

    • Malisha says:

      If I were cross examining Jon-W6 as a witness for the defense, and all he could say on direct was that at a certain point when he looked, he saw Trayvon Martin on top of Fogen, I would say, “No questions Your Honor” and sit down. He’s probably going to be very careful now that he sees Shellie got nailed for perjury; he was full of himself when he was bragging to the cops when he was sure they were not going to check his story; as soon as the scenery changed, the cat got his tongue.

      • groans says:

        @Malisha – I’m wondering whether the defense will ever be “cross-examining” Jon-W6 at trial.

        That would happen only if the state calls W6 for its case. If the state doesn’t call W6 for its case, then the defense would have to call him as a defense witness – or else W6 won’t be a trial witness, at all.

        Which side calls a witness to trial has a big impact on what questions each side can ask the witness and how they can ask them.
        Strategically, then:

        ** Does the state need to call W6? Does W6 provide anything to the state’s case that it can’t introduce through any other witness(es)? If not …

        ** Does the defense want or need to call W6 for its defense? If so, what might the state’s cross-exam look like? Is W6’s testimony important enough to attempt and risk defending W6’s credibility – in addition to the defendant’s credibility?


      • Dan Q. Smith says:

        “John” is disgusting. He went on and on… “I don’t know if you’ve ever had your head bashed on concrete but it hurts!” The “party line” wasn’t even good enough for him. He was only too willing to “ham it up” when he did his lying. Grotesque behavior considering what had just happened.

      • Malisha says:

        Groans, that’s my point. Prosecution doesn’t need a witness who didn’t see anything that could lead to any information and whose story has changed four times. I can imagine defense would call him but he would be careful, at this point (having become more careful each time he was interviewed, from “I can say anything I want to help out a buddy because the other guy’s dead and can’t contradict me” to “Well I better clean up my act a little bit because the ‘MMA punches’ thing won’t fly and I don’t want to get in trouble” to “It was dark” to “It was really dark and all I saw was that Trayvon was on top for a minute there…”), to say only that it was dark, and all he saw was that Trayvon was on top at some point.

        The glory of saying, “No questions” by the prosecution on cross would be that it shows there was nothing in his testimony that would have to be controverted or even addressed. His testimony proves nothing except to that contingent of Fogenites who still think that it’s OK to kill a Black kid because he tried to defend himself against being killed, since that’s so terribly disrespectful. Those folks believe that a Black kid should already realize that he deserves death and that if white folks let him live, that’s really a nice favor; thus Trayvon should not have tried to resist. He should have scraped and bowed and been submissive and let Fogen kill him without any resistance.

      • groans says:

        Gottcha, Malisha. I totally misread your first sentence early this morning (2 am)!!

        I ought to know better than to write anything at that hour ….
        [Insert embarrassed face]

    • Donna, Oh, golly gee…I might just take a trip to the Outhouse to see how they spin this bit of information…it should be REAL GOOD. 😆

      • Dan Q. Smith says:

        I’ve never been there! Honestly, I have “met” racists on the Internet and what is said here is enough for me to know what kind of vile place that is and I avoid it.

      • seallison says:

        Dan –

        When I first started following this case, and before I found this site, I used YouTube videos to get alot of information. I made comment often and could not believe the things some commenters would write. I used to battle with them and finally gave up even going to the comments because the comments are so disturbing that it was having a negative effect on me personally. I do not mind debating someone or agreeing to disagree. In these cases, they are not there to debate evidence or theorize. They are there to spew hate or promote their racist views.

        I am sure most here have had their eyes opened (and not in a positive way) as this case progresses.

        • Xena says:


          They are there to spew hate or promote their racist views.

          Yes, and to harass or intimidate all those with opposing views. I call their behavior verbal vandalism. Some of their personal attacks are actually hate-speech. They’re like thugs who come into a palace and throw garbage and filth then laugh about it.

    • groans says:

      @Donna Flores – Do you have a source for information about what W6’s deposition testimony was? If so, please share!

      • Donna Flores says:

        Everyday I just do a search for anything new and that’s where things pop up. So no I don’t have a source. I check the comments and that usually leads me somewhere else or it just ticks me off.
        As for John, he just got swept up in the moment. He actually thought Zimmerman killed a criminal and so he made things up to make sure Zimmerman wasn’t held account for being a hero. It’s later that he found out that the teen wasn’t what Zimmerman made him out to be and has now told the truth.

  33. Mike says:

    Great post Professor! I can’t wait to see the amount of bandwagons abandoned on Juniors twitter when they find fogen guilty.

  34. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< anything BUT quiet

  35. Chocolate Diva says:

    O’mara knows GZ, is guilty and he knows he do not have a case. Angela Corey and company is going to win this case. Justice is coming for Trayvon and his family.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I don’t think the best lawyer in the country could put gz back together again. gz is in a pickle as I wrote about this week and will quote again——-

      > How smart Serino was to have gz explain everything to him at the crime scene. What a video!

      gz was doomed.

      The two locations……the T and where Trayvon’s body was found……are equivalent to two bases in a game of baseball, and gz was in a baseball “pickle.”

      If gz chose to stand by his statement to Singleton that he was on the T when he immediately fell down on his back after being hit by Trayvon, AND that was where he shot Trayvon because Trayvon was slamming his head into the pavement…….well, then it was a total lie because of the 55+ feet from there to Trayvon’s body. It would indicate that gz was NOT returning to his vehicle, but was in fact, going after Trayvon with a loaded gun. NO self-defense there. That would be a baseball “tag out” against gz at the T location.

      If gz had shown that everything occurred where Trayvon’s body was found…….well, then again, gz is admitting that he was not on the T returning to his truck when he says Trayvon hit him, and he had to shoot Trayvon as his head was being slammed. So, that, too, is another baseball “tag out” against gz at the location of Trayvon’s body.

      So, during the video with Serino, gz made a baseball “stumble forward” by “taking off” from the T location trying to head toward the location of Trayvon’s body. Needless to say, gz has ultimately been “tagged out” BETWEEN the bases!

      • Malisha says:

        I hate to go back to a question I know is boring some and irritating others, but I need to understand something, and some little pieces of fact keep coming to me and not lining up with what I have understood so far.

        When I listen to the 911 tape I call “scream, shot, silence” or the “SSS Tape,” I hear the following.

        1. Woman calls 911 and gives address (blacked out);
        2. She’s telling 911 she hears someone screaming, calling for help;
        3. I HEAR what sounds like a gunshot; screaming continues;
        4. Dispatch continues to ask questions, woman answers;
        5. Long horrible scream and then SHOT and then SILENCE from the screaming person;
        6. Woman says, “there’s gunshots”;
        7. Dispatcher asks how many gunshots;
        8. Woman hesitates and then says, “one.”

        OK, this is NOT the NEN call and I’m NOT referring to the sound that might or might not be the “wracking” or “racking” of the gun. I’m very ignorant about this.

        It appears, however, that the following might have happened:
        The gun was the kind of kal-tec that could hold a total of 7 shots, being 6 in the magazine (is that the right word) and one in the “chamber” (ditto);

        IF IT WAS, then there would not need to be any wracking in order for it to have 7 bullets in it and one could have been fired, without wracking.

        BUT also, if it had (to start with) 7 bullets in it and needed no wracking, there could have been TWO SHOTS fired that night and only five bullets left in the gun at the end of the events.

        In other words, that sound I heard on the SSS 911 tape could really have been a gunshot, although some insist it was a door slamming. It did not sound like a door slamming.

        Then the thing COULD have been:

        Fogen gets out of the car with the gun holding 6 bullets in the magazine and one in the chamber;

        He speaks to NEN while he hunts down Trayvon; when he hears Trayvon he tells Sean to have the cops call him when they arrive, and he heads toward Trayvon, pulling his gun;

        When Trayvon questions him, either “Why are you following me for?” or “What’s your problem?” [It is immaterial which version], Fogen does not reach for either his cell phone OR his gun; he has his gun ready, and the “take-down” begins.

        It is that first gunshot-like sound on the SSS 911 tape that has always bothered me. The “wracking” noise can be the flashlight festivities; it doesn’t matter. There could have been another bullet fired that missed Trayvon (and fortunately didn’t hit the little boy or his dog or anyone else either) and that the cops did not hunt for that night (or thereafter) that could have gone anywhere, into the ground, into the notorious “bushes,” anywhere. Jon could have cleaned it up; Taaffe could have; Osterman could have; anyone could have, or it could still be somewhere.

        • Xena says:


          3. I HEAR what sounds like a gunshot; screaming continues;

          Jeremy said in his statement that he had to move furniture away from the patio door for him to open and step out to see what was happening.

      • bettykath says:

        Malisha, I’ve read stuff such that I wouldn’t be surprised to find there was a second shot. If I understand the gun/ammo stuff, it’s unlikely that it was fogen who did one of them. Or, is it possible that he put a new shell in the thingee that holds them so it looked like he fired only one. Anyway, it would be good for someone who is up to date on the evidence and who understands the gun to look into it.

        One of the cops doing the crime scene stuff was running a metal detector. She left a marker where the detector beeped (or whatever it does). A different cop found the spent shell casing near, but not at the same, spot indicated. Could there have been a second spent shell casing? Considering that the metal detector was needed and that it took quite a bit of looking, there may have been a second shell casing that was not found. Lots of people walking around could have pushed it into the dirt. They were looking for only one. When it was found, there was no reason to continue looking.

        This isn’t well written so hope you can figure it out.

      • Malisha, How many bullets did the Police find left in the gun? Could there have been another person in the car with fogen who also had a gun, and that’s why fogen didn’t want to let the police know where his truck was parked? Could that other person have also gotten out of the truck and fired a shot past Trayvon after fogen confronted him and Trayvon’s phone went dead…and that’s why Trayvon didn’t put up any fight to defend himself against fogen, because he heard the first shot and was terrified?

          • @blushedbrown:

            Thanks for the report. You know what I thought was interesting? Reading that the bullet wound was over where TM had a button. Is that the same button that Fogen ID’d on his NEN call?If so, it appears that the moronic one, aimed right their on purpose. What a monster he is!

            FYI everyone: On HP, one of the posters who I suspect is ShelLIE attempted to insult me. I informed her that she was out of her league in that department, and not to attempt to spar with me because she woudl lose any verbal sparing with me! I was and AM the Queen of verbal sparring! She has not addressed me at all today! Probably running scared. We know more about them, than they do about us and since they won’t admit who they are, (but we can tell) I can say what I wish and I never get blocked.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        What always confused me was that witnesses say they heard a pop. However, on W11’s 911 call, it sounds like much, much more than a pop.

        Malisha, one poster in our group (posting under MSNBC articles) thought that of the possibility of gz having a extra bullet that he put in the gun after shooting Trayvon……however, I don’t see how gz had enough time to do that. I think it is quite a stretch…..but interesting.

        Anyway, it never hurts to think through different theories and test them…….that is what scientists do when they run experiments.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Not enough time??? All he had to do was reach into his pocket for another bullet, drop the clip and push the bullet in, then push the clip back in. He doesn’t even have to rack it, because the shot he fired chambered the next round. So his only problem would be be to simply add another bullet to the clip, he could do that in as little as 15 seconds. There was enough time for him to walk back to the T eh?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Also, Jeremy said that he opened the kitchen drawer looking for a knife…..maybe when W11 dissuaded him from doing anything, he slammed the knife drawer after putting it back.

        And, of course, what we hear could also be the door. Whatever the noise, it does not sound like the read gunshot that we hear at the end.

      • seallison says:

        It has always bothered me that there was gun shot residue on the arm of fogens jacket. I am one of the many who believe he was not alone that night.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Oh, I keep getting scolded that I’m a conspiracy theorist, I’m making things more complicated than they need to be, there are simpler explanations etc., on an on. The trouble is, there may be simpler explanations, but those explanations don’t fit the evidence.

          A homicide is still a capital crime in Florida and it’s extremely serious, even if you have the police dept on your side, trying their level best to mess up the investigation.

          Looking at the cctv’s that tchoupi worked out, it looks very much like GZ drove directly to the mail shed, saw no one there and drove away. Back over towards FT’s place for a look there, then suddenly stopping before getting there, turning around and going right back to the mail shed, where he saw TM.

          Now, why so much secrecy? Obviously, it would have been no crime for someone to have called GZ about a suspicious person. So, why is GZ fashioning a story that conceals who notified him?
          Why would he want to take all the weight on himself? Because, to conceal that other person, he has to start telling lies. That’s never a good thing to do in a murder case, not even if you don’t think you’ll be charged.

          So then, is GZ trying to tell us that he’s got such important people in his pocket, that the rank and file investigators won’t be able to overcome him and do their jobs? If that’s what GZ’s actions are telling us, then he’s just roasted Wolfinger and Lee!

          Then he’s got these supposedly disinterested witnesses who aren’t supposed to know him that well, telling these lies in his favor??? Hey, these people live in a neighborhood where GZ has been at these HOA meetings crying and hollering about the rising tide of crime! He’s been coming around with a clipboard, he’s been driving the neighborhood without lights, with a flashlight and a gun for the last two years. Yet, nobody knows him that well? They showed up at the clubhouse party Osterman threw for his graduation, because they didn’t know him? Nor was party boy even introduced?

          Meanwhile he’s the guy who walks the police station like he owns the place, as he’s been doing for years. He knows the Chief and as a wannabee police groupie you can bet he’s spent time talking to just about anyone in the station with time on their hands. Yet, officers who have responded to the many calls GZ made, are only vaguely familiar with him? Please! The Chief can’t have that many friends addressing the city council and helping him oust the former chief.

          But yeah, everyone in the station just minds their own business eh? They don’t have a reason to be curious and/or ask any questions about that new civilian they see walking the halls so freely.

          Who thought up that jacket? The one he wore that night surely gave off a bunch of conflicting impressions, depending on what angle it’s seen from. GZ could almost pass for two people himself to hear the witnesses tell it. But that wasn’t careful planning eh? That was merely a coincidence that he just happened to be wearing a hard to identify garment that night.

          Originally I thought that Osterman was sticking close by him as a sign of friendship. But, that sword cuts both ways, so Osterman could have been hanging with GZ as a threat just as easily.

      • seallison says:

        Please watch this video where it talks about maybe someone else shot.

      • Tee says:

        @ malisha

        There were 6 bullets left in the gun after X shot Trayvon he always kept one in the chambers which woul make 7. I don’t think that he had the gun out when he caught up to Trayvon.i believe he had his hand on it like you see in those cop movies when they are approaching a suspect. While listening to the recording I only heard one shot but I did hear two different screams. There was the continued frightened scream of a child and one scream from an adult , you got to listen with headphones on. It sound like X saw someone and yelled for help while Trayvon was screaming at the same time. At first I thought he had his gun out the whole time but when I thought about it I’m now am sure that this “want to be cop” would have behaved like a cop that night with flashlight in one hand and the other hand on the holster of that gun ready to draw it.
        X chase Martin in the wet grass that’s how he feel and hit his head & that’s why he shot that kid, out of anger first then self preservation second, he was not going to let Trayvon tell his side of the story. Watch and see don’t his phone records burst this case wide open. I bet my weight in gold that he told on himself with that phone in some way.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I watched the video, seallison…..but I have no answers.

        However, for instance, if someone like Osterman had been there (and in a white shirt), it is much more likely that Osterman would have tried to pull gz OFF of Trayvon to keep gz from shooting, rather than anything such as what they were suggesting in the video.

      • blushedbrown….Thank you for the link. But unfortunately, my computer refuses to download it….just a blank screen. (I suppose it’s old and tired like me……) 🙂

        • blushedbrown says:


          Oh, so sorry it didn’t load.
          Have you tried deleting old stuff and programs that you don’t use? Sometimes that helps with freeing up space and speeding up the computer. Also delete browsing history too, that helps too.

  36. seallison says:

    Professor – Is GZ able to return to court to claim he is indigent again since it appears he is in irreversible financial trouble. It looks like the attorney for the wife did not appear the last 2 docket soundings. Maybe Junior will end up representing them both. Who knows, maybe the fogen himself.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      What a house of representatives!

    • rayvenwolf says:

      Speaking of SheLie, it seems the answer will be out soon on whether her lawyer’s hail mary toss motion was any good or not. I doubt it, but you never know what can happen. IF she should be so lucky I think it would behoove her to immediately pack her bags and move out. No need to continue to tempt faith, by her association with her oh so stellar husband.

    • Dan Q. Smith says:


      BTW, Professor, thank you for this blog post. He said, “f’ing coons.” This is the truth, and integral to understanding this crime; and something else- we dishonor Trayvon’s memory if we substitute “goons” or “punks.” I ask everyone to listen to it and accept it for what it is- “coons” and part and parcel of the racist fogen and his racist crime. It’s no accident the fogen’s family and other supporters are visciously racist.

      The defense is overextended and in disarray because of all their BS. Fine with me.

    • gblock says:

      seallison – I don’t see that there is any point now in GZ claiming in court that he is indigent. The issue came up in regards to the original bail hearing. But, that ship sailed a long time ago because of the many deceptions instigated by GZ and Shellie at the time of that hearing.

  37. Lito says:

    Yea their gas tank is running on fumes professor

  38. SpecialladyT says:

    In opinion, you are spot on, Professor! They are in deep doo-doo!

  39. seallison says:

    The family dynamic is slowly coming to light. Documentation for convictions for Junior and sister for speeding and drunk driving ALL indicate – White – Caucasian – Non-Hispanic. I think GZ may want to withdraw the suit against NBC. I think there will be evidence in Virginia where Fogen also signs documents with the same designation. So, NBC saying GZ was white will be shown to be correct according to the family itself.

    • Xena says:

      GZ’s medical records also list his race as White.

    • aussiekay says:

      He IS WHITE. Hispanic is an ethnicity not a race. White = Caucasian. People of mixed backgrounds can choose what they identify with.
      Many South Americans are a mixture of Spanish, native “indian” and some with some African slave blood mixed in. Up to them which they identify with, influenced by how/where they grew up. In the USA anyone from South America is labelled “Hispanic” but that doesn’t mean they can’t be white. It makes sense for anyone to NOT admit to being Hispanic or any other minority on official forms, if they can get away with it, as minorities face discrimination as we know.

      The family going on about being Hispanic is mostly a weak attempt to get support (financial and moral, mostly financial) from the Hispanic community. GZ doesn’t seem to have spent much time in Hispanic circles before this.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        They should have tried that tactic from the start, not that it would have worked. Can’t remember the article, but I believe it was on the Latino Fox news. Long and short of it, he’s not getting any support from them, JUST because of his background. I always thought the notion was bull anyways. Support is earned not mandatory and he’s done nothing to earn it. You don’t see other Hispanic/Latinos crying for La Raza and others to back them up when their behinds are in a sling.

        BUT because of the notion that GZ was being railroaded, was not “white” in the WASP sense of the word and so forth I guess people expected that sort of support. These groups aren’t stupid, they no a bad investment when they see it.

      • Judy75201 says:

        The choices are White/Caucasian (Hispanic) and (Non-Hispanic). They have chosen the “Non-Hispanic” category on the arrest records I viewed on Twitter.

      • Jun says:

        I feel people understand that, hence, them being allowed to choose white hispanic, or non hispanic, and some have other, which is for mixed race…

        clearly by the family’s own modus operandi, they feel shamed to reveal their hispanic side unless they feel it benefits them somehow

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yes and we mustn’t push to hard that he might be white, because that might kick start the idiots into giving again. His Hispanic heritage is what stopped them from giving, that and their ignorance.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Jun, and now Fogen is wanting the support of other Latinos who are very proud of who they are. I read somewhere, that LaRaza is behind Trayvon’s parents and all who support them. he is not going to get any support from them at all. BTW, as for his saying that he is white, hasn’t it been found out that he and his brother are not the biological children of Zimmerman Sr? I’ve read that they are 100% Peruvian.

      • Jun says:


        I have no clue about Fogenhats’ actual race, except he is latino and claims to be white non hispanic

        • @Jun:
          I don’t care what Fogen considers himself. I consider him STUPID, but that is besides the point. Fogen can say he is white all he wants. He is not white. I have seen Hispanic/Black folks lighter than he is. Fogen is dark and so is his brother and he speaks fluent Spanish. because I speak Spanish and I understood what he was saying. Unfortunately, he was placating the Hispanic coummunity with his BS. Believe me, Fogen is white when it is convenient for him and Hispanic when it is convenient for him. The white racists can’t stand him either.

      • Puck says:

        One reason why race is of paramount importance in this entire affair (and why I roundly reject misguided attempts to remove race from this) is that GZ’s racist supporters are, on some level, looking to find out whether it’s okay to shoot a black thug for merely scaring you — they want to know if their fear and prejudice are in fact justified, even permitted, by the law. It might not matter whether GZ is white or Hispanic or what his mother claimed she was, but it certainly does matter that Trayvon was black. For them, being attacked by a ‘vicious black thug’ is an ever-present and even imminent reality — a state that I have conceptualized and dubbed ‘realishness,’ the ontological analogue to Stephen Colbert’s epistemological ‘truthiness’ (in simpler terms, truthiness has to do with facts while realishness is the corresponding experience of this state). As such, they want to know if they’re ‘allowed’ to shoot to kill if need be without penalty. This is the test case that they hope will establish precedent.

        Though I’ve been lurking for months and months, I seem to be posting more often now. It’s always a pleasure to give the sociologist’s take. 🙂

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Interesting post, Puck.

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ AussieKay

        “HE IS WHITE”. No, Aussiekay, HE IS NOT. Everyone in my family is as white as it can get. From the onset, none of us EVER thought that Fogen is white. We know the race of a person when we see that person – irrespective of where (e.g. South-Africa, Argentina, Australia, etc.) he/she hails from. Having said that, I have the following questions for you.

        (a) Is Caucasian a synonym for White and on what is your answer based?

        (b) How do you determine what is (not) Caucasian and on what is your answer based?

        (c) How do you determine and what is (not) white and on what is your answer based?

        (d) Whit what do you make such determinations? With your subjective visionary senses and feelings?

        Lastly, I wish to point out that I find your use of “African slave blood” within the context of your thought-process very objectionable. I am not sure if you have personal racial issues to deal with, but I love people of all races and I do not think that I or anyone else is better or worse than Africans (who btw happen to be the happiest people on earth). I just feel uncomfortable when others are (consciously or unconsciously) described in a demeaning way. Period!

        • cielo62 says:

          Searching Mind~   1. YES, White and Caucasian ARE SYNONYMS. It’s based on the original location from Northern Europe. 2. What is NOT Caucasian is the fact that there are OTHER INDIVIDUAL RACES WITH THEIR OWN CHARACTERISTICS. Note, skin color is just one part of that description. Eye shape, average size and location of origin ALSO factor in. 3. Being “white” is based on your race, of being caucasian. There are many mixed peoples now, and maybe “mixed” or “human” should be used, but until then, white and caucasian have alot to do with COLOR and original origins of your “people.” 4. Such considerations have been based for centuries for the purposes of census, social benefits, heritage and lineage. Certinaly NOT subjective, although nowadays it seems to be more “self-selected” than in the past.   GZ is white enough that his mixed heritage is not evident. Since a proper and accurate geneology is not available, there is no way to know if he meets the 1/8 criteria used for other classifications of race in the US.   That he claims BOTH caucasian and hispanic heritage IS ACCURATE. I, too, am a white hispanic!

      • Bahama Mama says:

        Examples of “white hispanic”: Cameron Diaz, Rita Hayworth, Martin Sheen, Raquel Welch, Salma Hayek, Christy Turlington, Ricky Martin, Christina Aguilera.

        Examples of “black hispanic”: Alex Rodriguez, Juan Williams, Soledad O’Brien

        GZ is clearly “hispanic”, maybe “mixed hispanic”?

        • cielo62 says:

          Bahama~ Don’t forget Shakira (hubba hubba!) White Hispanic for sure! WITH Arabic roots in there somewhere. For some reason, Colombia has a large Lebanese population. It all goes into the great human genetic melting pot!

    • @AussieKay, you say he’s white, but i don’t. and neither did his *mother*, she said he’s afro-peruvian. not indian peruvian. she made that clear as a bell! ( i suspect there’s some strife between indians and afros over there) and most of the people i’ve talked to don’t consider him white.
      that’s one of the side issues people have about the initial media reports saying *White man killed a Black child* drama. except– who really cares what color gz is, he going to prison in a minute for murdering a 17 year old kid!

      There’s no such thing as white hispanic in my personal book. In miami you’re either white black or spanish, no matter what color your skin happens to be.
      i don’t even use the term hispanic. if it comes up, i’d ask if they’re spanish, if they see speak spanish.
      and yes i’ve been to spain, but it’s still spanish and there’s no offense in the generalizations.
      …etc.. every culture seems to have *color* issues.

      i also know the most americans don’t really distinguish between all the spanish people unless they are told, especially in the deep south- like georgia.
      while i lived in georgia i thought all spanish peeps were puerto ricans! LOLOLO

      and i have just recently for the 1st time, seen bubbles on the census form with the white or black hispanic . and i personally found it intrusive.
      and unnecessary, especially here in this town. but whatever,

      • cielo62 says:

        shanoninmiami~ please take what I say respectfully because I mean to be respectful, but I AM A WHITE HISPANIC. There are millions of us here. I am caucasian, hinting towards olive-skinned mediteranean (which isn’t a race, either, but a culture). The way people are described generally follow the same guidelines as classifying all species of life on this planet. RACE is a species. CULTURE is a subspecies. There are BLACK hispanics, many from Puerto Rico but not all. There are WHITE hispanics, mostly from South America but not all. It is very incorrect to plop all spanish-speaking people into one category, since our RACE (ie species) may be black or caucasian or mixed. If they do so in Miami, they are just as wrong as the Texans here who plop all spanish speaking people as Mexican.   One year in the early years of being a teacher, I had a student who was fair skinned, blond hair and blue eyed and I thought he was in the wrong class ( I teach bilingual Spanish elementary school). BUT I WAS WRONG. He was born and raised in Mexico! A HISPANIC and very caucasian to boot!   Yes, Virginia, there ARE white Hispanics. I am living proof.   BTW, you ARE right, that it doesn’t matter. GZ is going away for a long time for murder.

        • @cielo, i thought i’d hear something about this post from you! LOL i know exactly what you’re saying. and your position is yours.
          but when it comes to gz’s *race* i don’t agree. is there a scientific way to *see people, what’s the difference other than gene characteristics. just like a clef chin! that can be recessive or not obvious.
          as far as different races in Hispanics.please don’t misunderstand me. south american’s Caucasians, mexican blonds, olive, darker et. al, let me just say,. i’m very well informed. i do get around ya know.LOL

          maybe it’s not politically correct to ask if you’re spanish, but how would everyone know where exactly everyone is from. ( you know, are you from Catalonia or barcelona? it’s hard to tell from that accent) Lol
          anyway, you know i’m not talking about you or any hispanic derogatively. and i’m so not going to pussy foot around gz’s little feelings. and Jr’s either! they are the one’s with the identity problems, not you!
          very respectfully =^..^=

          • cielo62 says:

            Shannoninmiami- in all honesty, this is an issue that is country-wide, not just between us. I’m an American, born in Minnesota. My parents are from Colombia. I speak Spanish fluently. I’m usually mistaken for Italian or Israeli. Someday we will all be content to be humans. GZ is not getting any support from humans but from haters. And yes, they are whatever race and/or culture most benefits them at the time

            You know I love ya, though, right? >^.~^< (wink)

            Sent from my iPod

          • yes, i know, and we are all humans- well except you of course- the blogging cat!
            i’ve always loved cats, my mom was a cat lady too. she had Siameses that used the toilet until a kitten drowned 😦

            but my 1st cat was a white Persian i named Cindy (after Cindy Brady) when i was 3.. but she was very mean. the only time i could pet her was when i caught her sleeping on my bed. when she woke up she scratched me to death! my mom said she ran away one day…;)
            but i think the problem is the over breeding of persians and i believe she was in pain all the time…

            but i’ve never lived w/o a cat since i was 3 y.o, i had 5 for within the last 25 years and 4 are gone..my oldest was 19.
            the one left is Jackson mississippi lear locher potts!
            everyone who’s met him adopted him, that’s why he has 3 last names!! LOL he’s 15 years but doesn’t look a day over 7!!

          • cielo62 says:

            LOL! Shannoninmiami you are a HOOT! Mark Twain once said:

            If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve the man, but it would deteriorate the cat.” We cat people are just a breed apart, aren’t we?  🙂  All my cats are rescues; moggies each and every one of them.   I love the infinite variety of colors that cats come in. I wonder when we, as human beings, will take that much pleasure in the gorgeous shades of humanity?   shannoninmiami commented: “yes, i know, and we are all humans- well except you of course- the blogging cat! i’ve always loved cats, my mom was a cat lady too. she had Siameses that used the toilet until a kitten drowned 😦 but my 1st cat was a white Persian i named Cindy (after C” Respond to this comment by replying above this line New comment on Frederick Leatherman Law Blog shannoninmiami commented on Why Has the Defense Team Gone Silent in the Trayvon Martin Murder Case?. in response to cielo62: Shannoninmiami- in all honesty, this is an issue that is country-wide, not just between us. I’m an American, born in Minnesota. My parents are from Colombia. I speak Spanish fluently. I’m usually mistaken for Italian or Israeli. Someday we will all be content to be humans. GZ is not getting any support from humans but […] yes, i know, and we are all humans- well except you of course- the blogging cat! i’ve always loved cats, my mom was a cat lady too. she had Siameses that used the toilet until a kitten drowned 😦 but my 1st cat was a white Persian i named Cindy (after Cindy Brady) when i was 3.. but she was very mean. the only time i could pet her was when i caught her sleeping on my bed. when she woke up she scratched me to death! my mom said she ran away one day…) but i think the problem is the over breeding of persians and i believe she was in pain all the time… but i’ve never lived w/o a cat since i was 3 y.o, i had 5 for within the last 25 years and 4 are gone..my oldest was 19. the one left is Jackson mississippi lear locher potts! everyone who’s met him adopted him, that’s why he has 3 last names!! LOL he’s 15 years but doesn’t look a day over 7!! Reply    Comments Want less email? Modify your Subscription Options. Thanks for flying with WordPress.com

      • rayvenwolf says:

        Seconding cielo62 on the “white” hispanic issue here. In high school one of my very waspy classmates was in fact hispanic. You wouldn’t know it just to look at him, but that’s how it is. In some countries being “White” carries privilege ie being able to get away with things that even Caucasians in the states can’t manage without money/connections to back it up. In others afro heritage is denied all together. The only ONLY reason mommie dearest labeled laughing boy as Afro Peruvian was to again try and show that he CAN’T be a racist because some relative he never met was black(and frankly you can’t tell jack from that pic)

        Does any of this really matter? No not really. If GZ looked like my classmate or cielo’s student then most of the early kerfuffle would be easier for the average american to understand. Since he does not most people don’t get that GZ chose to ignore who he is in total to take advantage of what white still means in this country.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        About two years ago I read a great book entitled “The History of White People” by Nell Irvin Painter(retired Princeton Professor).

        Here is a c-span link where she discusses her book:


      • Jun says:

        The family suddenly claiming to be latino and black, to prove they are not racist is stupid as hell LOL

      • Mandelbaum says:

        ……..and I thought RZJ was obsessed about race! Sheeesh. The Z bros are both CLEARLY Hispanic! They don’t look at all Caucasian. Even without make up RZJ still looks to be partially Afro-Peruvian. I to have doubts that papa Z is their bio dad.

        • cielo62 says:

            Mandelbaum~ Well you can add ME to the race obsession. GZ IS CAUCASIAN as THAT is a RACE. HISPANIC is a CULTURE aned yes he is that TOO.   At best he is “mixed” with Ameri-Indian from indigenous peoples of Peru AND Caucasian. There is a mathematical equation that is used to compute “American Indian” for government purposes of census (it’s like 1/8 for the purposes of declaring oneself a Native American). I don’t know if it is used with all groups. GZ MIGHT have some other races mixed but since no one seems to even know his true biological parents, it’s probably not something that can be equated.

          I AM A CAUCASIAN HISPANIC.  You’d never know it. I look Italian.

      • looneydoone says:

        This is a link to the racial and ethnic demographics of Mexico. It is applicable across Latin America. There are Caucasian, Black and Asian Hispanics. There are Japanese, Chinese, Lebanese, Jewish, French, Amerindian,German etc (ethnicities) Hispanics. Hispanics are blonde, brown, red and black haired…blue, green, brown, black, hazel and grey eyes.

        There is NO “Hispanic look”…only a stereotype

        • i already said i know what Hispanic people can look like. none of which is a stereotype that i’ve stated.

          notwithstanding that i’ve lived in miami florida for 20 years, i’ve also traveled all over the world. so i don’t need to look up demographics of mexico. (been there)
          why don’t you look up the ethnic diversity of miami florida?

        • cielo62 says:

          Thanks looneydoone! “Looks” are deceiving.

      • Puck says:

        Back in the old days, on HP, when it came out that GZ was Hispanic the racist Zidiots were ALL OVER IT saying “See? He’s not racist!! He can’t be racist if he himself belongs to a minority group!!” So clearly the Zimmergang has gone with that in an effort to remove *racism* from the equation while using *ethnicity* as a substitute for race, perhaps to drum up donations from Hispanics (I doubt it), but certainly to minimize if not eliminate the white-man-killed-black-boy element.

        Of course this would serve to undermine one of the fundamental issues of this case, which I discuss in this post that didn’t get much attention: http://frederickleatherman.com/2013/01/23/why-has-the-defense-team-gone-silent-in-the-trayvon-martin-murder-case/#comment-61927

        Race and ethnicity are two different things, though often directly related. The former is biological and the latter is sociocultural. Had GZ been of Italian descent (or even Italian-from-Italy), with slightly darker skin, would we be having this discussion over whether or not he’s white? I would say we wouldn’t be, because we ‘other’ Hispanics and Latinos in a way that we don’t ‘other’ Italians or others of European ancestry. But Hispanics and Latinos evoke a ‘there’ (e.g. Puerto Rico, Mexico, South America, all of which are literally below the U.S.) and a ‘they,’ one reason for which is racial resentment over illegal immigration and those ‘spics crossin’ the border and taking our jobs.’ And that othering of Hispanics and Latinos is precisely why you are having this debate, a few of whose participants, unfortunately, are woefully misinformed if not plain wrong. I have studied and taught race and ethnic relations, and drew heavily on critical race theory in my thesis. What the Zim crowd is trying to do with the race issue, and the debate over whether or not he ‘counts’ as white (because white is a privileged status). It’s rather cheap as part of a defense strategy, and certainly incredibly transparent to rational people.

        Again, as I said in the earlier post, GZ’s race or ethnicity isn’t really important to the case, but what is of paramount importance is Trayvon’s race. The racists want to know if the slave-catching tradition is still permissible, because they have lost so much of their racist traditions, mainly in the legal sense but also in terms of cultural shifts. So is it okay to hunt down and shoot a runaway n—-r who gave you a threatening look, or is it not? That is among the things they want to know at least on a subconscious primal level; it is in the ‘lizard brain’ where our primal instincts of fear of the other persist in spite of our social and cultural evolution. It just seems to be more powerful in racists. For good books on this, check out Chris Mooney’s work.

        • Puck!! I haven’t even finished reading your reply here^ above, b/c i’ve been dying to say something to you about another one you wrote a few weeks ago ( mighta been your first one.) it was your analysis of gz’s actions that night! i found it brilliant and i agree so much and i was looking for it for DAYSSSSSS!!!!! until you came back the other day and put a link!! THANK YOU!!
          and just as a favor, if you don’t mind when you write something so unique can you do it so people can follow up with your post? b/c the last time you put it in answer to something else and i couldn’t follow!

          ok so i’ve saved my place and i can follow you now.. i’ll finish reading what you wrote here 🙂

          BTW. Yes, i agree about the importance that Trayvon was black because this is why i think the police acted the way they did.. but gz too thought he could get away with shooting Trayvon b/c he was black. i certainly KNOW gz would NOT have went after a white kid walking leisurely in the neighborhood!

        • how do you teach someone their race? wouldn’t it be what one calls himself and/or what others perceive him by appearance?
          if gz was italian ( or from italy) i’d still say he is not white. even if he was german.. just because my mom was from germany doesn’t make me- even as her kid, white either. what about my father?. what makes her white was what she looked like. what my race is based on what i look like too. and of course what other people in whatever environment i’m in see in me?
          i can’t argue with your assertion of some american’s discrimination of the immigration paranoia, bigotry and prejudice, very interesting point i haven’t really thought about! wow you are so right about that!!
          but i assure you i’m not one of those americans! i’ve always had a HUGE problem with the wet foot dry foot policy when it concerns cubans but not for haitians! living in miami i’ve been made intimately involved in these racist laws! i’ve picked 3 people OUT Of the water, (one woman later died) who were haitian that risked thier lives to get here only to be sent back because of where they came from, if they’d been cuban they probably would still be here. ( even though i picked them up on a vessel)

          anyway, i don’t think gz’s race is something we all are going to agree on. and i think one’s personal life experiences are going to play a part in their perspectives. and i don’t think anyone can be wrong in their own beliefs.

      • Puck says:

        @shannon: Thank you for the kind words. I’ve been following this case very closely since it first exploded in the media, and as I mentioned, I got caught in the HP tarpits, absolutely flabbergasted that real science meant nothing to the Zidiots. One kept saying ‘atraumatic’ (as on GZ’s medical report) did not mean without trauma. Still, since my own work deals with what I call ‘realishness’ in the right wing, I have a very good understanding of why and how such minds can be truly ignorant of facts and reality. I can’t help but ‘do’ sociology on this sort of thing; the HP comments were a fantastic meta-case study not only of the social and cultural meanings and implications of this case, but the people behind the whole debate.

        Even at the very beginning, before much evidence had come out, I knew exactly what had gone on that night. A guy shot a black kid because he thought the kid was a thug. George Zimmerman started and ended the whole thing, *controlling* the sequence of events (and therefore was the aggressor), and as far as I was concerned, that was enough to demonstrate his guilt. Everything else that came later — all the evidence from witness testimonies to forensic analyses to GZ’s impossible timeline and shifting stories — just made it more and more clear that there is not, and never will be, any rational, logical question as to his guilt on the charge of murder in the second degree (and not manslaughter because his depraved mind is forever recorded in the NEN call). This is not a situation in which each side has a valid enough case. No — the prosecution has everything they need, airtight and rock-solid, and the defense has nothing. And as much as I want to say I really don’t understand how the Zidiots don’t get that, through my research I have indeed come to understand, though that doesn’t mean I have any patience for their ignorance and vitriol. I have nothing but the strongest of contempt for them, and am forever frustrated that evolution seems to be individually relative.

      • looneydoone says:

        Looks like we have a long slog ahead of us re; educating others on what “Hispanic/Latino” is and is not.

        MiSombra, our feral cat says “hola”.

        • cielo62 says:

          Looneydoone~  yep, we surely do. ‘sigh’ oh well, no act of education, no matter how small, is ever wasted. Hola and headbonks back at MiSombra!

  40. Two sides to a story says:

    Following. You said it all, Prof L.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Thank you, professor, for the succinct round-up on where things are and how they got there for this lying defendent whose chicken do seem to be coming home to roost with the depositions. Quick question: Should O’Mara and other defense attorneys on the team develop a sudden need to attend to personal matters, is it up to Judge Nelson to appoint a public defender? If so, does the defendent (who presumably has no dough to line up his own) get to turn thumbs up or down on the Judge’s appointment choice? And, finally, wouldl this be a good enough excuse to delay trial? Thanks in advance.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Oh, and another question: How does the defendant’s wife’s perjury trial fit into all this? If he takes a plea (should one be offered by Corey in any stretch of the imagination) would it be likely, or even possible, the charge against her might be dropped? Again, thanks.

      • Trained Observer, Do you think it’s possible that ShelLie’s lawyer could ask for a plea deal in her perjury case, if she opens up about all she knows about fogen killing Trayvon and about any racism she has observed in that family. ShelLie’s no saint but, if she wants to save herself and start over…now would be the time to do it.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Grey Winter Sky, … Now that’s an interesting proposition. Don’t know, but such a move on her part certainly could change the landscape. She does need to be contemplating the future of marriage to someone who likely will be in jail during her remaining childbearing years. (You’ll recall how the defendant yammered on about his as yet unborn offspring.)

      • She does need to be contemplating the future of marriage to someone who likely will be in jail during her remaining childbearing years. (You’ll recall how the defendant yammered on about his as yet unborn offspring.)

        LMAO!!! yeah, GOOD!! thank god!! i can’t imagine the GZ offspring- and shellie??? nooooo!!
        but, think about that kids legacy?? forever known as GZ JR??!!
        no, that’s child abuse!

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