Blessed be the Bank Robbers

Saturday, January 19, 2013

I apologize for the delay in posting this article, but I had other important business to handle, including a trip to Tennessee on a motorcycle during an ice storm that took required more time than I had estimated.

I think we all realize that the fogen is a difficult client who insists on running the defense, even though he is the defendant and the least qualified member of the defense team to run the show.

Do you all know which category of defendants in criminal cases is the easiest to work with?

The answer is bank robbers

Some of the most intelligent, creative, honest and giving people I have ever met were bank robbers.

I’m referring to the proverbial good old days when a person could actually steal a lot of money from a bank without getting caught by escaping in one recently acquired vehicle and quickly switching to another recently acquired vehicle stashed a few blocks away, after ditching masks and clothing in the first vehicle. Those were the days when individual tellers had a lot of money in their tills and the banks had not begun concealing exploding dye packs and radio transmitters in the bundles of cash.

Most of the bank robbers I knew or knew about were modern day Robin Hoods who stole money from the big banks and gave away much of it to people in need.

A good example is Scott Scurlock (AKA The Hollywood Bandit because of the elaborate disguises that he wore). He was the most prolific bank robber in U.S. history. He shot himself to death on November 27, 1996, in Seattle to avoid arrest.

I represented Mark Biggins, his best friend and partner in crime.

They met when they were students at Evergreen State College in Olympia, WA

Scott is still remembered for the three story tree house that he built in his backyard.

For more information, google his name or go here.

838 Responses to Blessed be the Bank Robbers

  1. acemayo says:

    The teenage boy that a an light fixture fall on him after a few when
    they had him to the side he was bleeding real bad if no one was there to put paper towel to stop the flow of blood his head would have
    been cover with blood but GZ after a few minutes of his head
    would with a picture taken had no blood flow covering his head
    like he said it was.

    • Xena says:

      There ya go LLMPapa. Show him their double-standard. Get him. Gethimgethimgethim.

    • Mike says:

      Wow Junior is despicable, get him indeed.

    • Jun says:

      You made a good point there but also you can tell by the defendant’s use of words, that he felt that Trayvon was a weaker and a victimizable individual, because Fogenhats called him a “f%$kin punk/coon” and then began pursuing the kid with a gun


      it is obviously difficult to get home when there is an angry violent stranger stalking and pursuing you, preventing you from reaching home

  2. Romaine says:

    I think when the defendant makes the f ‘ing punks statement he was talking to someone not himself, if you listen to the 911 call you can hear a response of yea to the defendant,
    after he responds yes to the me it sounds like his wife…can someone verify if you can hear what I heard

  3. Malisha says:

    I once had one of those things you wind up and it runs around in a circle and makes beep noises.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      LOL! Anyone wanna help me pimp my minivan?

      The kids want me to get hubcap spinners… sorry all you serious car mavens.

      • racerrodig says:

        What kind is it…..maybe we can turn it into a Fogen Rover….Tracks down Fogenites, Zidiots, race baiting hate mongers and sock puppets. I’d be real useful and we can incorporate some James Bond features !!

      • Cercando Luce says:

        We’d all flip our lids for a ride like that! As long as I don’t REENACT the parking garage scene— which one was that…. where the car flies off the top floor and crashes through the Avis window?

    • racerrodig says:

      Mostly drag race, Pro-Street and Marine but I do carburetors for everything. NASCAR is just about impossible to get into. They are a very tight fraternity. There are a few machinists from this area who were hired by NASCAR teams and they swept up the welding slag and cleaned toilets for years. All of them came back to Jersey. Seems them good old boys weren’t lettin the secrets out to easily…..gotta prove yourself I reckon !!

      I do have quite a few record holders from my shop. NHRA, IHRA Super Stock & Stock Eliminator and a lot of Sports Car GT guys. I have a 750 combination that the 351 Ford Panoz guys love………GTS to be exact. A lot of dirt track stuff also.

      Opps didn’t mean to get off topic.

      • One of my sons races road bikes (tour de France type)….and another that races Rally Cross for the Wounded Warriors

        • racerrodig says:

          That’s some tough sledding the real bike stuff. Good for him !!
          The Wounded Warriors …..I’m gonna look that up. Love that stuff.
          My 14 year old has a 69 Mach I that we got him in 07 (it’s real rough) and a 1983 Monte SS….he’s a freshman you know. They envy of his friends !! And a baseball stud…..I love being a dad !!

          • I had a built ’66 ‘Tang when I met my wife back in the 70’s….got a lot of tickets too…..for things like….”UNSAFE START”……”EXIBITION OF SPEED”……Remember those 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            I had a 65 Fastback that I street raced (dad was a cop !!) and never got so much as a loud exhaust ticket. That car went 12:40’s in street trim which was unreal in the 70’s. Made the down payment on my 1st house with that car on the “Gloucester Quater” and the Philly “Front Street”, “Darien Ave.” & “70th St.” race streets. Man those were the days !! Come on over and we’ll bench race for awhile !!!!

          • mid 14’s with mine…..Loud?….Hooker headers that a friend of mine made Y reducers for….took each one from 3″ to 2 inch & a1/4s

            Had 4 Cherry Bombs hangin’ under that thing 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            We had some noise laws so I had 1 3/4 jr headers into 2 1/5 pipe back into the Hush Turbo Mufflers. The hot lick for free flow and quiet.
            4:57 then a 4:88 gear and much modified clutch linkage for a spin free launch. I had more cam in it than anyone thought would work but it killed the bottom enough that I could get the car out with no spin by riding the clutch just a bit and when it was hooked I dropped the hammer. Those 289’s didn’t make big power, but would rpm to the moon. 12:40’s @ 109+ on street tires (G60x14) and through the tubes. A tricked up slick shift 2:78 toploader with a modified Super Shifter III

          • OH…..and an 8 track 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            I had 8 track in my previous cars but this one I treated to that state of the art cassette with a bi-amped system.

      • whonoze says:

        racer, I had a 69 Mach 1 for awhile when I was in college (mid 70s) . 351 Windsor with 3 on the floor, and I could lay rubber in first and second. I can’t remember if the carb was stock or whether I replaced it with a Holley, but it was just a two barrel IIRC. IMHO the 69 Mach 1 was the best looking of all the pony cars, worth fixing up if your son’s isn’t too badly trashed.

        And, of course, i had an 8-track. But I also had one of the first models of 6X9 speakers with external power amplifiers. I cut big holes and mounted them in the doors. They were screaming loud. I used to drive through the ultra-snotty well-to-do ‘burb to the South of my hometown with Jefferson Airplane, Hendrix or The Ramones blasting out, just to piss off the Republicans. You could hear me coming from over a block away. I suppose that was pretty assholic on my part. I guess i was lucky I grew up in Minnesota. In Florida some self-appointed NW type would probably have pulled out an AR-15 and shot the Mustang and me full of holes.

        • racerrodig says:

          I had a 69 Cyclone with the 351 W 290 hp engine. The 2 bbl was 250 hp and not a bad engine either !! I had the 6X9’s in that massive package shelf. I got that car as a repo (guy owed $69.00) and refused to pay it. It turns out it had the HD NASCAR package and that car is worth 6 figures today. I played Cheap Trick and Aerosmith, not to mention Nugent on my 8 track. Sold the Cyclone and bought my 65 Fastback Stang….man was that a barn burner.

      • Jun says:

        I drive a CL Class Benz

        good handling and fast =)

  4. Well someone commented yesterday on taking (Betsy) …No Becky on my hike the other day…..someone else mentioned Debra….

    Well here’s Debora….2 years in the making so for … my avatar

    I’ll have her finished by the first rendezvous come Memorial day 🙂

  5. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Zimmerman…”yes, sir he’s on top of me like this (he demonstrates) and I shot him and I didn’t think I hit him because he sat up and he said, ut, you got me, you got it, you got me, you got it, something like that so I thought he was just saying, I know you have a gun now, I heard it, I’m giving up. So I don’t know if I pushed him off me or he fell off me, either way I got on top of him and I pushed his arms apart and I said don’t move.”

    FOR Emphasis:

    “So I thought he was just saying, I know you have a gun now, I heard it, I’m giving up.”

    This quote was discussed by our team under a MSNBC article.

    Some of our team speculated that Trayvon could actually have said this very early on in the encounter.

    Many put this in a the category of a confession.

    Others pointed out that if gz thought this is what Trayvon was trying to get across to gz after being shot…..that gz was truly depraved to have gotten on top of Trayvon.

    • Xena says:


      “So I thought he was just saying, I know you have a gun now, I heard it, I’m giving up.”

      If GZ thought that, then it means that he didn’t feel that after he shimmied and his jacket raised up, that Trayvon saw the gun and reached for it.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Yes……this quote of gz definitely should be considered carefully.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Yep, Fogen is so stupid that his stated thoughts contradict each other.

        But the fact is, we’re only now getting around to discuss this facet of it, because most of the very serious stuff is almost all settled.

        • Xena says:

          @Lonnie Starr. It is my hope that prosecutors question GZ’s omissions for relevancy, such has his omission of having Jon photograph the back of his head while he was on the cell phone and before Smith arrived on the scene. The flashlights are other omissions. Additionally, Trayvon had ear-buds for his cell phone. With all that leaning and straddling of GZ’s story, he never mentions seeing them.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I don’t know what to make of this case, O’Mara knows he can’t let GZ take the stand, he’s already hinted at that much, when he asked the judge if GZ could be allowed to testify without being cross examined, lol. Never, in life, has anyone ever heard such a ridiculous motion. Right MOM, just do away with the lynchpin of the American justice system. Why not ask if GZ can be allowed a 10 day visit to China?

            Well, O’Mara is going to put on a case, but it’s probably not going to include GZ taking the stand. That means that MOM will have to spend his time trying to discredit the states witnesses, then wrap up with some alternative theory of innocence in summation. That’s about the best they can do.

            Unfortunately for such a strategy, the SP isn’t going to put a whole lot into evidence, that MOM can use to fashion his summation around. This is because, he can’t do a good job of controverting the states witnesses, for fear of opening doors that would reveal what his client really is. He’s limited to providing a half-baked defense, then trying to blow innuendo and suggestion into full featured narratives. I doubt that’s going to work, since it’s not going to explain the evidence that will be presented. MOM’s going to look sillier than Serino and GZ look in that cartoon video up thread.

  6. Jun says:

    the urban legend of a liar’s pants catching on fire, has turned out not to be true, considering Fogenhats and company LOL

  7. racerrodig says:

    OKAY fans…..I examined the gun pictures and the website. Fogen has the +1 extension and there clearly are 7 bullets in the picture. The magazine is like almost all magazines in that it has windows. There are six (6) bullets in the mag and 1 out of the mag.

    There are 7 bullets clearly visible in the evidence photo. I don’t know what the report says ….a little help !!

    • blushedbrown says:


      What do you need so I can try to help.

    • whonoze says:

      Whether GZ racked his magazine is irrelevant. For one thing, he could have racked it before he left home.

      I repeat, the sound on the NEN call is NOT a Kel-Tec PF9 being racked. 0% possibility. GZ lies, but sound waveforms do not.

      Even if GZ did rack his gun, say after the end of the NEN call, that would prove nothing. Regardless, he was carrying a gun that was capable of killing another human being with a single squeeze, and the bat-shit crazy laws of Florida made it perfectly legal for him to do so. And he did kill a human being with one little twitch of his finger. It doesn’t matter if he was waving THE gun around as he hunted for Trayvon, or if he just knew THE gun was there, the little death-dealer hidden away in his waistband. (Me, I find the concealed gun considerably more sinsiter than a revealed gun.) Regardless of what he did or didn’t do with the gun before the struggle, he found himself in a wrestling match with a kid who refused to bend to his will, and having suffered only the most minor of scratches, his life nowhere near threatened, THE gun found its way to THE hand, which pulled THE trigger, and sent THE bullet through THE “asshole’s” heart.

      IMHO, that’s Murder One, but the State doesn’t think it can prove the intent required to make that charge BRD, so they went for Murder 2, (also perhaps because they wanted to avoid the Grand Jury…)

      Anyway, all this 7 or 8 bullet shit is trivial – a waste of everyone’s time. Let’s move on.

      • Xena says:


        It doesn’t matter if he was waving THE gun around as he hunted for Trayvon, or if he just knew THE gun was there,

        In the Dooley case, he was charged and convicted of improper exhibition of a dangerous weapon or firearm, and open carrying of weapon. Of course, there were witnesses. In GZ’s case, we have his statement to Hannity where he also tells of his real fear for losing his life, which was that he was terrified thinking the cops would show up and find him standing there with his gun in his hand.

      • blushedbrown says:


        >>Whether GZ racked his magazine is irrelevant. For one thing, he could have racked it before he left home.

        I disagree. It is relevant to me. Even if the State of Florida does not go into the “sound details” of the NeN, as all of us have done, doesn’t mean we can’t speculate on sounds heard on the call.

        I think it is important to know if he did indeed racked the gun before continuing to look for Trayvon, because one it disputes his stupid claim of ” I forget I had a gun” statement. Two, if the sound can be justified as to “racking” it shows he had intention of the gun being “readied” for action he intended to take if he found him and he did.

        >>I repeat, the sound on the NEN call is NOT a Kel-Tec PF9 being racked. 0% possibility. GZ lies, but sound waveforms do not.

        You are not in possession of the weapon used to definitely to say 0% possiblity to conclude a true waveform experiment.

        >>Even if GZ did rack his gun……..

        Everything you wrote after this, I agree a 1000%.

        >>Anyway, all this 7 or 8 bullet shit is trivial – a waste of everyone’s time. Let’s move on.

        Respectfully disagree, its not a waste of time since we are talking about it.

        • racerrodig says:

          Thank You I love you guys and gals and actually wanted to respond to “…lets move on..” with “Don’t tell me what to do” but I didn’t since I let everyone have their say without, well….telling anyone what to do !! That would be rude.

          • blushedbrown says:

            @Racer & Whonoze

            I respect Whonoze a great deal. We can agree to disagree. I just happen to disagree with him on this particular subject. There is no need for me to be nasty and I believe that I wasn’t. If if came across as such, my apologies to him and the blog. I just stated my POV, that’s all. I like Whonoze, he keeps me on my toes. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Thank You and that’s exactly what I said !

      • Jun says:


        Fogenhats specifically had Shellie’s gun

        That is proof he specifically went out with a gun as the gun is not his, so he will either have to admit he grabbed Shellie’s gun and went out or he always has Shellie’s gun

        He also obviously knew it was racked, otherwise he would not have tried to shoot anyone with the gun, especially one, he specifically went out with that night, and was planning to use it on a dog and he was threatening Trayvon with the gun

        This was his entire intent

      • whonoze says:

        The reason we can move on is that we all agree there was a round in the chamber, ready to fire, well before GZ re-encountered Trayvon. It doesn’t matter when it was chambered, just that is was. The whole point of a semi-automatic pistol is that you don’t have to do anything to ready it for “action.” It comes with intent built in. If GZ loaded it with a full magazine he had the intent you refer to. He always had it.

        You are the antithesis of nasty, and you know I’ve got mad love for ya even when we disagree.

        If you’re capable of forgetting you have a semi-automatic weapon, with a hollow point bullet ready in the chamber, tucked into your waistband, that would fit my definition of depraved mind.

        No I don’t have the sound of GZ’s exact gun, but I think it is inconceivable that two specimens of the same design could have mechanisms different enough to account for the VERY significant difference between the sound of the PF-9 sample and the sound on the NEN call.

        • blushedbrown says:


          Wrote in part:

          >>You are the antithesis of nasty, and you know I’ve got mad love for ya even when we disagree.

          So do I, I got mad love for you too. I love that we both and everyone here as well can agree to disagree, but all agree on one thing, Justice for Trayvon.

          I think sometimes the claws come out in our frustration on trying to analyze the massive amount of data from audio and documentation. Its only natural imo that the claws come out from time to time. Sometimes we need that as long as no one gets hurt.

          Much Love


      • racerrodig says:

        It won’t open the pages. Thanks I’ll find it.

        • blushedbrown says:

          This is what is says;

          DMS-11 One fired 9mm Luger caliber cartidge case

          ME-4 One fired bullet jacket portion two fired bullet jacket fragments and one lead bullet core

          TS-1 One 9mm Luger caliber Kel-Tec model PF-9 semiautomaic pistol serial number RJY08. one 9mm Luger caliber catridge one holster and one magazine containing six 9mm Luger
          caliber catridges

          • racerrodig says:

            Thank you !!!!

          • blushedbrown says:


            Your welcome.

            page is getting harder to load.

          • racerrodig says:

            I’ll say it’s taking to long.

          • racerrodig says:

            That makes a total of 8 – – – 1 spent, one loose and 6 in the magazine but the wording makes it look like 7 total.

            The one that is loose is from the chamber and a cop ejected it.

          • I’d have to say Roget that then……….

          • racerrodig says:

            His gun holds a max of 8 and 8 are accounted for meaning he went out with a pistol that was a serious danger just to have in his holster at any time. There is no safety on that gun other than a double action trigger which only means “pull a little harder” than most pistols. He was locked & loaded and ready to rock ‘n roll from the get go as they say.

            In short he was never concerned with self defense AND most important he never tells anyone when he chambered a round. He didn’t need to…he was in kill mode the second he left the house.

          • Woulda been better blowing whatever balls he has off trying a quick draw than murdering Trayvon…..

          • racerrodig says:

            Remember he said he had to be careful not to shoot his left hand. Damn I wish he had. Imagine trying to explain that one !!

            “Yeah I was getting pounded but I had a hold of his hoodie with my left hand and before that I had a wrist lock on ’em. Then for no f*&%ing reason, my damn gun went off and look….no more left hand. SheLie told not to use those hollow points……damn, all my friends will call me stumpy now.”

          • I’m 5’11″……My rendezvous handle is Short Stack……U go figger it out 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            5-11 and someone refers to you as “short” I’m 5-9 and nobody ever said that Hmmmmm. They call me racer….’cuz that’s what I do and work on.

          • NASCAR?……Yeah Buddy 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            I forgot….it’s illegal to carry a gun like that in the condition it was. It must have an empty chamber. Even the police CANNOT have a semi – auto pistol with a round in the chamber…..anywhere.

    • Jun says:

      I forgot the name of the trigger mechanism

      but on the murder weapon

      You cock it by simply placing the clip into the chamber and it automatically cocks the weapon so Fogenhats obviously got his gun ready that night

      The reasoning is, it is Shellie’s gun


      Fogenhats will have to admit he specifically grabbed Shellie’s gun to go out that night


      Fogenhats always has Shellie’s gun

      and he obviously had the gun ready, otherwise there would not be such a full clip, and he knew he could shoot someone with a hollow point

      Another thing is Trayvon probably does not even know how to use a gun or ever even touched one (perhaps a squirt gun)

      Using a gun is a martial art, that is why they need training

    • i think Lonnie said awhile back that GZ had 8 bullets total. wouldn’t that mean that he had already cocked his gun to get the *8th* bullet in the chamber?
      IOW. you can’t have the mag full without having cocked already to have one in the chamber?? i don’t know about this stuff but it seems to me if the mag (even the extended one) was holding to capacity one bullet must of been in the tube already?

      does this make sense?
      it would be interesting to find out if he had already cocked his gun at home, then we don’t have to worry whether that sound we hear one the NEN call was the cocking..

      then it might of been knocking on someones door or hitting the flashlight..

      • racerrodig says:

        He had to have left home in the ready for combat position, which is by the way, illegal.

        • Illegal? wow, i couldn’t imagine that idiot doing anything illegal since, you know, he’s already earned his criminal justice degree..or was it a political science degree??

          but really, it is illegal to have a gun cocked and ready like that? i know there’s certain laws in florida, in that having a gun (even having a cwp) like if you’re in a car you have to have it in the glove box right? you have to have like a number of steps to do before you can shoot?

          my friend used keep his gun in the glove compartment. other times he would keep it in his pocket. he never WORE it like gz did.

          now i’m curious what the cwp laws are. i have a place right across the street, next to the bagel shop, that has signs about getting a permit and taking a class there…. i wanna go and talk to those guys tomorrow when my kid is in school..

          • racerrodig says:

            I had a copy of the FL Conceald Weapon Handbook and it clearly states it is illegal to have a semi – auto with a round in the chamber at any time. Even the police cannot do that.

      • Jun says:

        He probably did check to make sure the gun was ready again

        but if you add up his actions it equals intention, in legal terms

        a) He grabbed Shellie’s gun and went out with the gun, which had a full clip in it. The trigger mechanism means it is automatically ready once clip loaded in

        b) He was targeting and stalking Trayvon before calling police for his “swatting” call

        c) Trayvon tried running away from him, and Fogenhats, whom was already stalking the victim by vehicle, got out of his car to chase on foot

        d) Fogenhats says to himself “shit, he’s running” and then proceeds to go after the victim, so obviously, he is intending to go after the victim

        e) Fogenhats disregards the police statement, that it was unnecessary to pursue the kid

        f) Fogenhats says “He ran” & “He’s running down the street”. For Fogenhats to know this, he was still going after Trayvon, to be able to witness this.action from the victim, as he is excitedly uttering

        g) Fogenhats eventually catches Trayvon and confronts the victim, while the victim is tired from trying to get away from the defendant and confronts the victim and acts threatening

        h) Fogenhats attacks the victim, and terrorizes and threatens the victim’s safety

        i) Fogenhats shoots the victim in the chest, and then puts the kid facedown, and sits on the victim’s back, asphyxiating the victim, while the victim is dying. The victim was screaming for help but the screams and pleads for his life were ended with the actions stated above.

        If his intention was not to have a gun, he wouldnt have went after a kid and then killed him with the gun, which he specifically brought out that night, which had a full clip

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        @shannoninmiami: Here’s the martial artists analysis you asked for:

        Also, people! I know we’re speculating about someone else being out there with GZ that night. But, remember, just because we can’t find hard evidence that they were there, doesn’t mean that it is impossible that he had anyone there or assisting him.

        When people contrive to do things, the more remote they are to the action, the less likely they are to leave evidence of having been there. I burglary or bank robbery, for instance, may require the assistance of a lookout. The lookout is going to leave little to no detectable evidence that they participated in the crime. Because they didn’t enter the premises or otherwise participate in confronting anyone, they go undetected, unless and until the investigators manage to figure out there was an extra person there. That happens, either because someone slips and mentions another name or something in their own narrative, or because the criminals manage to take evasive actions, they would not have been able to take, if they had not been assisted by a lookout.

        So, if we’ve got an experienced investigator like Osterman out there, he of all people, would know to stand clear of GZ and to avoid doing anything that might lead to him being detected. While, at the same time, he’d be interested in watching things unfold from a distance, and of course, aggrandizing himself after the fact.

        Osterman would know from the start that what GZ was planning was a very serious felony. So, he’d be extremely careful not to “step into the light” so to speak. Of course, since here there be racists, exposing themselves with that trite talk about ammo and weapons, while a black kid lays dead on the ground, there racists are doing their best to act like an animal was killed.

        Tell me… Where in your memory of life, have you ever heard weapons and ammunition being discussed at the scene of the death of a human? That was both scripted and planned. And that’s the crime where GZ gets police department assistance!

        If you need a reason for a tie-in, racism could not provide a better, more compelling answer.

        • Any chance of the state getting fogens phone records of that night?

          It might shed some light on who he was in contact with both before & after the murder…..

          • Xena says:


            Any chance of the state getting fogens phone records of that night?

            The State took possession of GZ’s phone. In one of its supplemental discovery filings, the State listed GZ’s phone records. They were not released to the public, just as Trayvon’s phone records were not released other than what attorney Crump provided to the media before GZ was arrested.

            Also in discovery is a report of GZ having a pre-pay phone, IIRC, in March 2012, and the company contacted and providing the records.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I’m sure the FBI grabbed everything.

          • racerrodig says:

            They have all their phone records !! O’ Mara is trying to keep the out of the spotlight. Those records will show some serious issues with his story….trust me !!

          • Xena says:


            They have all their phone records !! O’ Mara is trying to keep the out of the spotlight. Those records will show some serious issues with his story….trust me !!

            For sure. I remember at GZ’s first bond hearing that BDLR asked him about texts and emails where he wrote about the victim’s father and a reverend. O’Mara objected for outside the scope of cross. That doesn’t make those records disappear and I hope prosecutors find a way of having them admitted at trial.

          • racerrodig says:

            They have all the phone 5ecortds they need and we’ll all be shocked at what they reveal .

        • thanks lonnie.

          as for osterman. for the life of me i can’t understand why Osterman would say on national TV the he *would DIE for* gz?
          that’s absurd! what man would say that in front of his wife and someday his kid would see?

          anyone with a brain would wonder why!! there’s only 2 logical reasons i can think of i’d die for some dude.
          1. if i was madly in love, and of course if he was the father of my child and i needed him to be alive to care for the child.
          2. if i was involved/conspirator in some serious crime that could get me the death penalty if convicted.

          so which one sounds most likely?

        • racerrodig says:

          Well said !!!

      • @Pat, yes they have the phone records but haven’t released them for privacy reasons. i can’t wait to find out who he was communicating with before and right after!
        especially once he thought he was free. maybe after he leaves the station that night since he was already with osterman and shellie. i’d like to know if he called any cops.

  8. racerrodig says:

    To make everyone’s day. I went on the Kel Tek website and the P9 from the factory holds 7 in the magazine and 1 in the pipe for a total of 8. That means Fogen would not have needed to rack his piece and have 6 left + 1 in the chamber which is what the evidence shows.

    If he has 6 in the magazine and 1 in the chamber as the evidence shows the mystery is over. he had to have had one in the pipe and it would not matter if we can hear what appears to be him racking it on his call…..matters not.

    Officially 6 in the magazine….1 in the chamber…..he shot Trayvon accounting for the maximum of 8 UNLESS Fogen bought the optional +1 magazine extension so I will bring up a picture of his gun the evidence and I’ll get right back to all of ya.

    • Malisha says:

      The real issue is not how many bullets he carried; the issue is WHEN did he pull his gun out of his holster? If we hear him wracking his gun on the NEN call, he pulled it before he ever came into proximity with Trayvon Martin. BIG INFORMATION.

      • racerrodig says:

        The sound that appears to be him racking cannot be as the gun is fully loaded and one in the chamber at that point, in fact, from the second he left home. Carrying this gun in that condition is illegal. Even theb police are forbidded to do so. This may be why they let everyone think he did not have a full load.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Your clarity is superb, LLMPapa.

      Why’d he lie? He lied so because he did not want anyone to know that he murdered Trayvon.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Just an my opinion based on the evidence.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        Here is JUSTICE sing a song:

        Time is on my side, yes it is
        Time is on my side, yes it is
        Now you always say
        That you want to be free
        But you’ll come running back (said you would baby)
        You’ll come running back (I said so many times before)
        You’ll come running back to me
        Oh, time is on my side, yes it is
        Time is on my side, yes it is
        You’re searching for good times
        But just wait and see

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

    • blushedbrown says:

      Excellent as always, Papa.

      Tic toc is correct, only 3,360 more hours to go to trial.

    • Jun says:

      He lied because he knew for a fact the dispatcher told him specifically that it was not necessary to go after the kid, and if he did go after the kid, the kid had every right to know why a stranger was stalking him and chasing him to wherever he was trying to run to, which the kid was trying to get away from the defendant

      Fogenhats knew that he was intent on doing the kid harm, and he knew that going after the kid by stalking and chasing him, would showcase that intent, hence his lies

    • whonoze says:

      Aww, you know Junior’s listened to the NEN call, but he JUST CAN’T REMEMBER what’s on it.

    • Jun says:

      What about the statements

      “I am broke and indigent, and only have one passport which I am turning over to the court right now, so please give me a bond…”?

      Oh yeah, it is not Fogenhats’ fault he made untrue statements regarding that, it was the law enforcement’s fault for betraying him LOL

      Something tells me they played some good cop bad cop on Fogenhats for him, if he actually believes that betrayal mess

      Let us also not forget, he also stated

      “Trayvon is only a few years younger than me, and I did not know if he was armed or not”

      when he made numerous comments that Trayvon was a “kid” and even stated that he knew the kid was not armed, and if the kid was armed, why would he use his fists against a larger, stronger, older adversary, when he has a weapon allegedly LOL

    • Xena says:

      Get him, LLMPapa. Gethimgethimgethim. Get Bobbie and George.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Justice is calling out to gz, “come, come for examination’. Justice is watching with as many eyes as the night sky’s stars. Every itch gz has now will be caused by Justice’s examining pricks. Justice will slither into his thoughts, dreams and unconscious depths within ……looking and examining.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Justice’s twilight zone:

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        ooooooo justice must be scary for gz.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      LLMPapa always does an outstanding job of presenting facts that smash gz’s lies.

    • pat deadder says:

      did you notice fogens says he was looking around to see Then suddenly stops mid sentence,I think he was going to say he was looking around to see who else was in the car.

  9. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    How smart Serino was to have gz explain everything to him at the crime scene. What a video!

    gz was doomed.

    The two locations……the T and where Trayvon’s body was found……are equivalent to two bases in a game of baseball, and gz was in a baseball “pickle.”

    If gz chose to stand by his statement to Singleton that he was on the T when he immediately fell down on his back after being hit by Trayvon, AND that was where he shot Trayvon because Trayvon was slamming his head into the pavement…….well, then it was a total lie because of the 55+ feet from there to Trayvon’s body. It would indicate that gz was NOT returning to his vehicle, but was in fact, going after Trayvon with a loaded gun. NO self-defense there. That would be a baseball “tag out” against gz at the T location.

    If gz had shown that everything occurred where Trayvon’s body was found…….well, then again, gz is admitting that he was not on the T returning to his truck when he says Trayvon hit him, and he had to shoot Trayvon as his head was being slammed. So, that, too, is another baseball “tag out” against gz at the location of Trayvon’s body.

    So, during the video with Serino, gz made a baseball “stumble forward” by “taking off” from the T location trying to head toward the location of Trayvon’s body. Needless to say, gz has ultimately been “tagged out” BETWEEN the bases!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Humpty Dumpty Fogen has fallen off the wall and not all the tree-pers in Canada, China or elsewhere can put him back together again.

    • Mike says:

      Just more and more inconsistencies when compared to his original statements. Remember when George claimed he didn’t want to walk back through the dog walk because he didn’t have light? Something that has never been mentioned again since he was called out by Singleton, then there’s the whole “I don’t remember” episodes. I knew there was reason Junior is freaking out on twitter, he isn’t confident in his brothers case at all.

    • racerrodig says:

      “So, during the video with Serino, gz made a baseball “stumble forward” by “taking off” from the T location trying to head toward the location of Trayvon’s body. Needless to say, gz has ultimately been “tagged out” BETWEEN the bases!”

      Pretty good analogy but let me say as a Little League coach and having watched my son make 3 solo double plays with this.

      Fogen is on 2nd with one out. Serino is pitching. He fires a fastball up in the zone and the batter, SheLie skies the pitch up almost straight up. Fogen takes off and stands on 3rd with that stupid smirk as Serino catches the fly ball in which Fogen and SheLie are
      OUT…..bitching and making excuses the entire time.

      Game over Fogen……and SheLie was the clincher.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Ha……you are goooooood, racerodig!

        • racerrodig says:

          I try…..

          • Xena says:

            That’s one of the things that makes this blog interesting, important, and constructive. Team Trayvon is truly that, people from different walks of life and experiences who are constructive. We’ve learned of blood flow, medicines, legal procedure, evidence, guns, etc.

          • racerrodig says:

            I hope Fogen & Co read every word !!

          • Xena says:


            I hope Fogen & Co read every word !!

            Why do you think that the professor and other bloggers supporting justice for Trayvon are cyber-stalked and defamed? The Zidiots spend more time reading this and other pro justice for Trayvon blogs than they do posting on the treeslum. They no doubt email and Tweet O’Mara and GZ every word. We are just that important, factual and committed. .

          • So if I say….”Hey fogen…..f**k you”…..he’ll get the message? 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Oh, I’m sorry, I missed that. Can you please repeat it and a bit louder…..Thanks, it’s getting late and I wouldn’t want to misconstrue what you said.

          • Xena says:


            So if I say….”Hey fogen…..f**k you”…..he’ll get the message? 🙂

            Not only will he get the message, the deliverer will advise that he sue you for defamation, and GZ might amend his complaint against NBC to allege that their edited tape caused this. LOL!!!

          • blushedbrown says:

            @Xena & MMP

            LOL, that a big 10-4

          • racerrodig says:

            Which will cause more PTSD and they’ll blame us. Good Go for it Fogen.

          • @ Xena….then I’ll sue for the refund of my 2 cent donation !!!!!!!!!

          • racerrodig says:

            You gave him 2 cents…..I hope the check bounced.

          • No I actually donated 2 cents to him via paypal….who charged 30 cents for the transaction…….THEN I got a personalized thank you card from him……and he called me his friend… sweet :)-

          • racerrodig says:

            You dirty dog you……..since he’s your bud, tell him racerrodig will continue to be a thorn in his side and the prospect of any cash from this side of the river ain’t looking good.

          • No Xena….2 cents is the max……I would however donate 25 cents for the price of the round for him to cap himself with……wouldn’t want shellie to be destitute……

          • Xena says:

            LOL@Pat. The constitution provides monetary controversies to the amount of $25.00 and over. You should have donated more. LOL!!

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig Good morning!

            Which will cause more PTSD and they’ll blame us. Good Go for it Fogen.

            Now that Junior rubbed elbows with Randy Hahn who said “that little nigger deserved to be killed,” GZ is going to have a difficult time convincing the court that NBC’s edited tape gave the impression that he’s racist.

          • racerrodig says:

            Don’t ya just hate when that happens !!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Hahaha… I’m sure ABC caught that and will have the tape to play in court. Hahaha… I guess he didn’t know whose show he was appearing on? Hahaha… What a bunch of clowns. Now RZ won’t be able to get a job cleaning toilets, as people will be to afraid he’d damage them.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr.

            Hahaha… I’m sure ABC caught that and will have the tape to play in court.

            Trent Sawyer (stateoftheinternet) is the person who exposed Hahn and he has the recordings on his YouTube channel.

            Amazing that Junior has repeated his “My family is not racist” diatribe, then goes on the radio program of a racist and doesn’t bring up one mention about the host’s bigotry. Junior’s groupies are trying to make excuses and throw interference, but thanks to Trent, it’s too late.

            And other thing — Randy Hahn tweeted that his use of the “n” word is Obama’s fault.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Members of the white jacket brigade, hie they away to yon rubber rooms!

          • racerrodig says:

            What did RZ jr do before he advertised being a racist post 2/26 ?? Some say he is a lawyer and there are ads with that name but I find it impossible he was a lawyer anywhere.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Someone mentioned that he was doing 1040 EZ tax work.

          • racerrodig says:

            Jr. You’re fired

          • racerrodig says:

            You’re correct and I know that so I’ll say “Hey Fogen…….Justice will be served and it won’t be pretty”

      • Jun says:

        I think that is why Serino got him to do the reenactment video LOL

        Even without being on the scene, his story that he stuck to at the police station did not match the evidence

        then you see Fogenhats realizing his error in his lies, which he stated 4 or 5 times in a row, and then Fogenhats stares desperately down the back pathway, because now he knows he has to make up something


        Fogenhats comes up with the Shaolin Tiger swipes for about 3 feet and then only his head is exactly on the pavement LOL

        Then on scene he kept forgetting what he said on the NEN call, so it does not even match the phone call he made

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Yes, jun, who can forget the moment he stared down that pathway.

        Someone help me put something together using the theme melody from the TV program “Rawhide”

        staring staring staring
        see that gz staring
        ………they got gz’s rawhide

      • Mike says:

        “Shaolin Tiger Swipes”…. LOL!~

      • Jun says:

        I think what is even more stupid about his BS story is Trayvon, the victim, was the notorious MMA fighter, Black Dynamite Jones, and Fogenhats was powerless, until, Fogenhats used the SHIMMY and he over threw the fearsome youth with such a mediocre move in his story, while Fogenhats was almost out from being smashed into the concrete head first over 3 dozen times LOL

        so the victim was so powerful, but was overcome by a SHIMMY LMAO

        Also another really stupid lie is he claimed Trayvon reached for his gun, but in the reenactment Trayvon reached under Fogenhats’ armpit, and Fogenhats overcame Trayvon by clamping his hand under his armpit LMAO and this was done while Fogenhats’ head was about to explode ROFL

        I am no martial arts expert, but I am fairly sure an MMA martial artist would be able to overcome a SHIMMY and a armpit locking technique LOL especially while the foe was allegedly almost out cold with a head explosion

      • Mike says:

        You didn’t know the forbidden armpit technique is one of the most powerful defensive moves known to man? One must be nearly unconscious to perform such a move.

        • racerrodig says:

          The “..forbidden armpit technique..” “FAT”…..well now, I’d say Fogen could master FAT with no problem. Just sayin’

      • Jun says:

        Fogenhats must have hypnotized Trayvon because

        Fogenhats says that Trayvon saw the gun on his hip, and to reach for the gun, Trayvon reached under Fogenhats’ armpit, instead of reaching for the hip where the gun was LOL

        Fogenhats learned the Forbidden Armpit Technique from his best friend, Mark Ostertrench, who was trained by the Green Berets and Air Marshall schools

  10. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    You know… I sit here I can’t stop thinking about how terribly, terribly depraved gz is to claim Trayvon’s desperate, heart-wrenching cry for help as his own cry. A cry that is silenced simultaneously with the gunshot.

  11. kindheart101 says:

    In Memory of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and Trayvon Benjamin Martin.

    A gentle man, yes that is true,
    he had kind words, for me, and you.
    He had a dream, many would say,
    that time could never, take away.

    Just like Trayvon, he met his fate,
    from one with anger, filled with hate.
    They judge, they stalk, they go astray,
    with evil minds, they kill their prey.

    We won’t forget, we honor you,
    both MLK, and Trayvon too!
    So Rest In Peace, our wish is clear,
    that in our hearts, you’ll be held dear.

    Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated, April 4, 1968, while standing on the balcony of his room at the Lorraine Motel, in Memphis Tennessee.

    Trayvon Benjamin Martin was murdered by George Zimmerman, February 26, 2012, while walking home from the store.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      ah and a sigh.

      What a gift you give through your poetry, kindheart. You are a beautiful soul!

    • blushedbrown says:


      Thank you for sharing your poetry with us.

    • kindheart101 says:

      @You all have thoughtful comments

      We can only hope their loss is understood. They posed no threat to anyone. Yet, they were both taken from us, and why? Because they spoke out for equality? Wore a sweater with a hood? The color of their skin? Or, was it just control? Control………… to take a life, because they could? They felt they wouldn’t get caught? Thought they could lie their way out of it?

      Just the same as MLK will be remembered as being taken down, silenced, before his time, so we will remember Trayvon. He also had dreams, a family, a future.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        You have depth, kindheart.

        If you have time……may I suggest you listen to the 45 minutes of the full version of Martin Luther King’s “Mountain Top Speech”.
        It is so worth listening to.

        And, by the way, in that speech he tells about how that demented woman in the late 1950’s stabbed him when he was signing books. The doctors removed the blade at the hospital. It was touching (but not piercing) the aorta. He said if it had pierced the aorta , he would have drowned in his blood ……just like Trayvon.

        • kindheart101 says:


          Wow, am I going to date myself!

          I was born, and raised in Detroit. In 1963, I heard the first Martin Luther King speech, “I Have A Dream”, as he walked down Woodward Avenue. (In front of my Grandmothers home) 🙂

          It has been a long time since I listened to his “Mountain Top” speech. I will listen to it again my friend, and I’m sure I will learn more than I did before. The more we age, the differently we see things.

          Thank you

    • kindheart101 says:


      I was going to spend the night at a friends house tonight, because I have an early morning appt., but didn’t want to leave my cats alone that long. I am with them 24/7, and they are lost when I am away. 😦

      I wrote this, because I honestly feel that MLK and Trayvon will be missed, for the same reasons. They were loved, taken too soon, for NO reason, their lives cut short, when they still had so many dreams. Martin Luther King was a leader, spoke of peace and equality. Trayvon had Dreams of Aviation. At 14, his parents signed him up in an Aviation course, after which he mentored other students. He volunteered his time, at the concession stand, 6 days a week, for his football team that he played on from age 5. He earned money painting houses, overseeing peewee football, and washing cars.

      I was NO PRIZE as teenager. I made many mistakes, as I think all of us would confess to. Trayvon was a good kid, didn’t deserve to die, yet they try to drag his name through the mud. That alone, shows me all of them have no heart. If it happened as Z claims, he would have been in shambles, hysterical, at taking a life. But, he says: Oh No…….I wouldn’t change a thing…..It was GODS PLAN. Sick………..Z is absolutely mentally ill! He has no capacity to feel any empathy or remorse. Narcissistic, a proven liar, and thug. Interesting that he points fingers, and claims Trayvon was, everything he, himself is proven to be!

      • blushedbrown says:


        Glad you stuck around.

        I look forward to your post and poems. I agree that we all had our problems when we were teenagers. I can not wait for the trial so they can convict him, and maybe give Sabrina and Tracey some sort of closure this coming summer.

        • kindheart101 says:


          For that I pray also. But one thing is for sure Blushed. Z will never sleep well again. He will always look over his shoulder. He will always know what he did. I hope that burns in memory the rest of his life.

          • blushedbrown says:


            Totally agree.

          • kindheart101 says:


          • Lonnie Starr says:

            It leaves me sore to realize that GZ did not have to kill anyone that night. It’s aggravating to know that he got some kind of pleasure from it, it didn’t bother him at all. He was able to laugh about it on Hannity, where he was able to find something funny about it. So, the only satisfaction anyone is going to get is, watching the weight of what he did fall down upon his shoulders. That won’t happen if he is not held to account for his actions. Right now he’s slowly coming to realize just how ensnared he has gotten himself. Yet, he still has hopes that there is a political solution that will set him free. Since hope springs eternal, my guess is he won’t realize he’s stuck, until the final bell is rung.

          • blushedbrown says:


            You’ve written exactly how I feel.

      • Cercando Luce says:


  12. Jun says:

    Again with the lies

    Aye dios mios

    I have cataloged all the stuff they made up about Trayvon, aka the massive lies

    (1) The black guy from Carolina twitter lies
    (2) The numerous wrong Deedee twitter lies
    (3) The car break in lies
    (4) The casing houses lies
    (5) The bus driver swing lies (an extension of number 1)
    (6) Videos of other people fighting that are black, which means Trayvon would to, lies
    (7) The drug dealer lies
    (8) The black dynamite assault lies

    That is all I have seen LOL

    They are all lies, but even if they were true, it still does not prove Fogen acted in self defense LOL it just sounds like anger and hate speech

    The kid cant even cut a break after being dead for so long

  13. Chocolate Diva says:

    I was just told that on one of the video’s that O’mara have in his evidence that it shows TM trying to break into a car. Which I don’t believe,I’m like really O’mara knows he doesn’t have anything on TM. He just trying to make him look bad and its sad because he’s not here to defend himself. I be glad when this all over with. I’m sure its some stuff about GZ we don’t know about yet. I hope the state can find out every dirty rotten thing he have done.

    • Xena says:

      I was just told that on one of the video’s that O’mara have in his evidence that it shows TM trying to break into a car.

      The videos were given to O’Mara by the prosecution. Should we think that Trayvon is seen on one trying to break into a car? With what? The Skittles? No police report? If that were true, did it give GZ the right to kill Trayvon? Was GZ protecting his own property? No.

      The Zidiots don’t have a clue that each time they spread lies like that, they support the State’s charge that GZ wrongfully profiled Trayvon.

      • racerrodig says:

        Fogen “……um, I’ll bet that kid tried to break into a parked car about 1/2 a mile away 23 minutes ago……yep……, we’ve had some break in’s here and….there’s a real suspicious guy……..”

        • blushedbrown says:

          Fogen….. and Ummm while I am so far away from the clubhouse, I know ummm he will be there…ummm but I’m not following . I’m ummmm driving along the same street. Ummmm no I don’t need police to be dispatch, ummm because my wife..

        • skipping on drugs or something………….

        • On the serious side?

          For him to say that Trayvon was running would give him cause to pursue.

          Yet if he were to say Trayvon turned & WALKED away like he could give a F**k who I was…….no reason to pursue….

          Hence…”skipped”…..This guy could make Forest Gump look like Einstein

          • racerrodig says:

            This guy could make Forest Gump look like Einstein

            Yes he could……Run Fogen Run……Bubba’s found out you stole his favorite pillow……Run Fogen Run!!!!!!

      • racerrodig says:

        The story will morph into “Trayvon was dropping Skittles into the gas tank fills so the sugar would melt and ruin the fuel pumps and injectors, thereby rendering them useless so he could come back and carry them away, after he cleaned out the neighborhood of all the 56 & 60 inch Flat Screen TV’s while Taaffe watched with his “short term vision”

        It’s just a matter of time before some bizarre story gets moving.

        • Xena says:


          It’s just a matter of time before some bizarre story gets moving.

          Each time I hear or read those asinine theories by the Zidiots, it causes me to think about rapists who think victimizing their victims will get them acquitted. The more that the Zidiots paint Trayvon as a thug, the more they support the State’s charging affidavit that GZ wrongfully profiled Trayvon.

          • racerrodig says:

            They are just to ignorant and blind to see it. Months ago I had a drag out knock down with a Zidiot about the “I had to be careful not to blow my left hand off” and the clothing not matching the entry wound. He had no clus as to what the left hand implication was.
            3 stories. Be careful not to shoot my left had I had a wrist lock on hime with my left hand I must have had a dam good grip on his clothes and was yanking becasue the holes are way off.

            Like that’s proof Fogen was getting whooped.

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. If the Zidiots fairly and honestly debate on GZ’s statement about making sure his left hand was out of the way, that might lead to discussing that he shot with one hand, and that might lead to discussing the recoil when shooting with one hand, and that explain the injury to his nose on its right side.

          • racerrodig says:

            But we know the truth

    • ladystclaire says:

      These people (if you can call them that) for spreading lies about this kid. there is no level unreachable that they will stoop to, in order to slander this child while hurting his family in the process. what we are dealing with here folks are some very sick and above all, “IGNORANT” individuals who are also just as dangerous as the defendant himself.

      The world is watching this as well as talking about it. these very people that boast about being Americans, are doing nothing but making this country look bad to people around the world.

      Trayvon was a *CHILD* and, no matter how tall he was or how much he weighed, *HE WAS STILL A CHILD* none the less.

      • Rachael says:

        And his parents are human being who have lost their child and are in pain. No, these are not huma/ and their talk is some of the worst cyberbullying and hateful hate speech ever and I hope this is addressed and they pay for it.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Rachael, I couldn’t agree with you more. those who have benn on the internet doxing other and just being outright bullies, should be held accountable and that includes Robert Zimmerman Jr.

        as I have said before, I think it’s very shameful for the defendant’s *FATHER* of all people to be on blog sites taking part in slandering this kid and his family. and to think he was once a part of the justice system in this country. some of the stuff they are doing is considered juvenile and high school goings on. they do not act like the adults, that they are suppose to be at all.

      • Rachael says:

        @ ladystclaire – That goes for Mark O’Mara too. He isn’t as sly as he thinks. He is an instigator. He gets them all worked up. They get all worked up into a frenzy and he says it wasn’t his fault. Oh sure, he may have said he isn’t using anything to villainize Trayvon or his family. He doesn’t have to. He knows he has his haters to do it for him. And when they do what they do, does he tell them to stop it? No, he says he didn’t do it so you can’t blame him.

        I left a post yesterday about the guy who sees a suicide jumper on a bridge. Instead of trying to talk the guy down or gather others around to help, he gathers others around and starts them chanting “Jump, Jump, Jump!” and when the guy does and dies, killed, he says he had nothing to do with it.

        That is EXACTLY the way I see O’Mara.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Rachael, yes I’ve got O’haha’s number, it’s like he throws a rock and then hides his hand behind his back. Oh yea, he is just as guilty as they are in trashing this kid and his family.

    • Rachael says:

      So what if they do have such a video? GZ himself aid he did not witness Trayvon in any feloneous activity when he called the police. He would have had no knowledge of that happenong previously. As well, it was not his ca, noton his property and you can’t just shoot a guy for breaking into a car that is not yours &nnot on your property. If tere is such a video, it provea nothing with regard to GZ or any of his claims. It is just a way to distract people. Do’t fall for it.

      • blushedbrown says:


        Instead of posting the ludicrous claims of what is beig told or read by you, I am very interested in what you say in response to these claims. I am very interested in how you counter their claims.

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Chocolate Diva, I’m with you all the way as for being glad when this is all over with and Fogen is handed over the to the state of Florida’s correctional system for what hopefully be for the rest of his miserable life. then maybe these racist snakes will crawl back under their respective rocks.

      • Chocolate Diva says:

        Justice is coming for Trayvon and his family. This case has brought out the worst in some people. I don’t see have grown adults can spread so much hate and lies on a kid they knew nothing about. I strongly believe all Trayvon was doing was trying to get back to Brandy house that night and GZ stalk and chase him down. I do believe he had accomplice that night. First I was saying Taaffe was out there and reason I say that is how he was running his mouth about the case he acted like he was there. I do know Osterman was there because he said on the Dr. Phil show that Shellie called him and he met her on the scene. People talk bad about Angela Corey but I don’t think she wouldve charge him if she didn’t have the evidence. I got faith in the state and I believe it will be a GUILTY verdict.

      • Rachael says:

        They are nothing but racist snakes! Day after day they post articles about 17-year-old black males who have done this, that or the other and go on and on about what thugs they are and how awful their parent’s are and say ignorant things like:

        “Young white kids try to become more like them. How many blacks try to become like us and adapt to our predominately white culture? They simply refuse to assimilate.”

        Even IF Trayvon HAD been the horrible “thug” they make him out to be, do you see any articles on their site villainizing the parents of white kids who do crimes? Don’t you DARE tell me there are no white kids out there doing horrible things!!!!

        Day in, day out, nothing but articles about things about 17 and 18 year-old black kids. For example, on January 19, they had 2 of them. I’m sure that on January 19, there were no crimes committed by any other people that day, just teenaged black males.

        I wanted SOOOOO very badly to believe that this case had NOTHING to do with race. Why? Because that is how I am. I had EVERY reason, as a parent myself, to believe that it was ONLY about a teenager getting shot on his way home from the store and the shooter being let go on his own words of self-defense with no witnesses and no proof. As a parent, I would NOT stand for that myself. Even the treeturds at the outhouse would not either I’m sure. Could you imagine what any one of them would do if they were told their son was killed, no one saw what actually happened so they let the shooter go because he said it was self-defense? Do you think any single one of them would stand for such a thing? WHAT PARENT WOULD??!!! I don’t care WHAT problems your kid may have had, no parent would just blindly accept that!!!!

        So yes, while I refused to admit that there was anything about race with regard to this case, it is the people like those at the outhouse itself who have made me see otherwise. I have NO doubt in my mind now that these people, being those GZ/family/lawyer associates with, who associate and support GZ/family/lawyer are racists and this case is ALL about race and hate!!!!

        It took me a long time to finally admit it – because that is such an ugly statement about humanity. It hurts to acknowledge that this crap really still exists – and to the extent that it does. But after reading months and months of comments, months and months of toilet paper at the outhouse, months of O’Mara saying awful things with a wink wink at the end of it, they have all managed to convince me.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Rachael, so I guess they have totally forgot about the white teens who have taken guns to school, and shot and killed their school mates as well as teachers. white kids commit crimes just as much as any kid of another race. I don’t recall any black kid shooting up his school. if they have, I missed hearing about it.

        As for the drug aspect of things, I know of an incident where a white kid bought a Fentanyl pain patch from someone, and put it on himself in order to get high along with drinking alcohol, he *DIED.* let them talk all they want to because, we all know the score and that there is good and bad in every race.

    • Malisha says:

      Oh that’s just silly. They need to waste people’s time with crap like that so they can keep from thinking, “Jeez, Fogen’s gonna go to prison.” Had they proved that Trayvon Martin actually DID break into a car (which would have come out long before this point in time, BTW), they still wouldn’t have a shred of evidence to disprove the prosecution’s case.

      • racerrodig says:

        Does anyone recall any car theft or break ins during that time frame. I don’t and you can bet your last dollar if there was the Zidiots would have been all over that as far back as May.

  14. Malisha says:

    Back to the issue of whether we hear the “wracking” of the pistol on the “scream” 911 tape: I think the fact that the police evidence report says that there was a full magazine and yet one bullet had been fired from the gun that was taken into evidence does not prove that Fogen did not wrack his gun at that exact place on the 911 tape where we seem to hear the wracking of a kal-tec gun. Here’s why:

    Timothy Smith. He’s why.

    Gun. “THE” gun. Fogen says he fired one shot and then, not knowing even if he had hit Trayvon, “got” or “lunged” onto him and “spread out his hands” because he thought he had been hitting him with something in his hands. He has already holstered his gun although he does not know if he still needs it or not, OK? He did not scramble up, keeping “THE” gun drawn and wrack it again in case there was another asshole in the area ready to kill him? He did not keep “THE” gun drawn in case this guy really was NOT SHOT and might be faking, only to leap up and kill him? After all, he was up to no good! OK, he holsters his gun. Then he says when the police arrive (Ayala confirms this) he tells them where the gun is so they can take it. Then it ends up on the front seat of Tim Smith’s squad car? Then at some point it gets checked into evidence and there are still 6 bullets in the magazine and only the one in the chamber has been fired but the gun was not “wracked” again? Hmmm.

    So I’m wondering if the report is even true. SPD has lied about a couple of things so far, why note lie about the bullets in the gun?

    If Tim Smith and Fogen were discussing the ballistics of the thing on the way to the station house, just as Jon and Fogen discussed the ballistics of the thing in the backyard after the thing went down, who’s to say that there wasn’t a refilling of the magazine with another bullet or, perhaps, a report that there were six bullets still there when there were only five still there. WHY?

    Because Fogen was (with Tim Smith’s help) constructing the story of the self-defense necessity shooting. He cannot fit in another unlikely step in the “forced killing” story. He has to be able to grab the gun and fire without wracking it. He has to be able to say he was not stalking Trayvon Martin with his gun drawn already. He would not imagine there was a wracking sound on a 911 tape to interfere with the story as he told it. I will bet that either there were FIVE bullets left in the gun at the end of the incident in the rain that night and the police report is false OR there were FIVE bullets left in the gun at the end of the incident in the rain that night and by the time the gun was described by the evidence guy, another bullet had been put into it.

    Look at the casual way Fogen walks around the station house the day after the killing. It would not surprise me to find out that he and/or Tim Smith knew where to lay hands on a hollowpoint bullet to fit into the kal-tec on the night of 2/26/2012. And who had the gun (and spare bullets) when Fogen went to the bathroom and washed up? And what did the officer put into the trunk of the squad car while Fogen was standing in the garage of the station house about to be escorted in? Could a few extra hollowpoint bullets have been in Fogen’s pockets but have traveled into the pocket of the jacket that got casually thrown into the trunk?

    Which brings me back to another thing that still bothers me even though someone on a previous thread tried to explain it to me. I simply cannot believe that Fogen’s head had the ketchuppy-looking blood trails all over it at 7:20 p.m., then got cleaned up by the EMT, then appeared in the squad room garage video without noticeable blood on his head, and then, quite some time later, had thinner but generally similar rivulets of blood on his head when photographed by the police. The time differences, blood trails, and quantities of blood simply do not add up to any real-world physical realities I can understand. That, coupled with the lack of narrative for the first “head shot picture” taken at the scene, coupled with O’Mara’s considerable discomfort in speaking about the photograph that “ABC was given,” coupled with the amount of time it took Tim Smith to drive Fogen to the station house, still bothers me, and if I were writing a cops-and-murderers-by-forensic-evidence-TV script I would say THIS is what they would have to concentrate on to understand the crime.

    • Malisha………There would have been a LIVE round in the chamber…….automatics as opposed to revolvers eject the fired cartridge and chamber a live round… action is needed on the shooters part for this to happen…’s just the way semi auto pistols work.

    • whonoze says:


      First, the supposed gun-rack sound is on GZ’s NEN call, not on the W11’s 911 call.

      Second, as I pointed out earlier, the garage video does not have the detail to show ANYTHING on Zimmerman’s head. For example, we know for sure he had two lacerations on the back of his head. One doesn’t appear at all in the garage footage, and the other (larger) one only appears in one frame. In every other frame this level of detail is blurred by a combination of the low native resolution of the camera, the lighting conditions, and the video compression algorithm. The cherry-picked frame the zimmietards (and ABC) claim shows a significant head wound on GZ actually shows nothing but a shadow on the top of his head.

      Third, the sound on the NEN call is NOT the same as the sound of a Ket-Tec being racked. The audio analysis video Xena posted is incompetent. The waveforms are compared at far too wide a scale. Using the audio sample of the PF-9 from that very video, I demonstrated (quite definitively, I think) the difference between the two. The sounds on the NEN call are impact sounds, with a sharp attack and quick decay. The Kel-Tec sounds are more sustained scraping sounds, as you would expect from metal sliding back and forth.

    • racerrodig says:

      Let ne set this straight. Once the gun is “Racked” and a round is in the chamber it “reracks” with every shot until it is empty, or jams. It does not need to be racked every time. It is called a “semi – auto” pistol in that it reloads itself and needs a trigger pull for every shot.

        • racerrodig says:

          SoaB I never went to the Kel Tek website but that would be correct. the KT has a bigger mag. I wonder if the SPD just let everyone believe that it was 6 +1 not 7 + 1 Hmmmmm?

          I have a friend who had on and he told me and I posted it on HP back in May? what he said, that is 7+1.

          • Correct me if I’m wrong here……they have the images reversed in the middle photos’…..does that reversal also include capacity?

            Notice also that the Kimber, even tho shorter weighs 3 ounces less than the KelTec?

          • racerrodig says:

            The Kimber is 6 + 1 the P9 is a minimum 7 + 1

          • blushedbrown says:


            >>I wonder if the SPD just let everyone believe that it was 6 +1 not 7 + 1 Hmmmmm?

            Hmmm is right, I wonder.

          • Well the firearm is in evidence… all one has to do is check……and find out if a cops lying or not….

          • blushedbrown says:


            Hmmmm. Lots to think about today.

          • racerrodig says:

            OKAY everybody, I just went on the Kel Tek website and it’s official that the P9, Fogens weapon holds 7 + 1 for a total 8 !!!!!!

            They also make a +1 magazine extension so the SPD needs to get their heads of of their asses and look a little harder.

            Seven (7) rounds is what the mag holds all by it’s lonesome so all of us who say that bastard (pardon my French) racked one is right on target…..Hey Fogen….I’m calling Corey ya lying sack !!

          • blushedbrown says:


            THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Okay, now I get what you guys were saying. But, out on the dog walk, the racking sound comes too close to the knocks for my taste. So it seems to be someone else with him. Then in the truck there’s a racking sound when he says “Zimmerman”, Whonoze shows some analysis that says it’s not the same gun, if it’s a gun at all. Besides, in the truck GZ would have his hands full. So, whatever it is, it’s most likely someone else in there with him.

      • Malisha says:

        Racer, Racer, wow, he pulled out his gun while on the NEN call and he “wracked” it while he was still on the NEN call and his goose is fucoocked!

        This little piece of information is THE little piece of information. This is not “my” little piece of information or “his” little piece of information; this is “THE” little piece of information!


    • seallison says:

      Mark Osterman being a good friend, went shooting with GZ often. He knew how GZ practised.

      Now, go to Osterman’s statement. He says that GZ upholstered the gun, turned it, then shot.

      GZ upholstered it, then turned it, then shot.

      I know nothing about guns. But, I do think that someone on their back, pinned down would have a hard enough time getting the gun out of the holster tucked behind his hip. I also find it strange that he would be able to turn the gun before getting the clean shot.

      He is left-handed and shoots with his right. Pat, or any other gun owner, how does that work – where he has to turn his gun before shooting.

      • I’ve addressed this before…..Lay on your back and try and pull something from your waistband…..It can be done, but requires some awkward movements with the shoulder and elbow….

        Now while still in that position try to twist your wrist as if to point something forward (insert gun)…….Again….it can be done……although awfully awkward………..THIS is one of the points that has always led me to believe fogen got wacked by his own gun

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yes we discussed this long ago, before we had much of any discovery. The draw would require such awkward shoulder and elbow movements, that we reasoned, a person in a mount position, who (as GZ says) knew he was trying to draw a weapon, would be in the superior position to prevent the draw. All they would have to do is, stop the shoulder or elbow movements. They could do that with a knee and grab the gun themselves.

          Thing is, GZ introduces a view that TM knew there was a deadly firearm available to be had and where it was. So then, why would he not use his superior position to prevent GZ from getting the gun?
          So, there again GZ’s story is internally inconsistent.

          GZ says he thought Trayvon saw his gun, he thought Trayvon was reaching for it. But, by being able to draw and control the gun, he’s proved that both of this suspicions were wrong. Trayvon had not seen nor was reaching for GZ’s weapon. Otherwise GZ would not have been able to draw it. All Trayvon would have had to do is, put a knee on GZ’s arm, then draw the weapon himself.

          Of course, we know that none of that ever happened. GZ simply chased the kid down, caught him and shot him to death, then went to work contriving a false story about self defense. The only strange thing about it is, how does John manage to join in and provide confirmation of a story that never happened at all? How does he contrive a fantasy that he didn’t see, but somehow confirms the fantasy the GZ, is supposed to have just dreamed up? Even if there is a way for him to learn what he needs to know, to embellish the story. Why would a witness to a killing take sides and tell lies that might be discovered?

          • racerrodig says:

            Back in May or June we did this dozens of times and had volunteers that were the exzct size and age of Trayvon and Fogen. In plain language….it cannot be done.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yeah and who can forget NLME’s family members treating him as having lost him mind when he asked them to help him do some demonstrations. 😀

          • blushedbrown says:


            It seems like eons ago when he did that.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Right?!? I also wrote Trent Sawyer to get himself a real person to do demos with, instead of that empty shirt. Even if the actor wore a ski mask, it would be more informative to have a real person, with real limbs, attempting to duplicate what GZ says he managed while being straddled on the ground.

            All these video makers seem to be lone wolves?!? Or no one is interested in acting? I know years ago people with nothing to do on their hands would be jumping at the chance to have a little video fun. Kodak and Bell and Howell sold tons of movie cameras, 8mm and Super 8. and they were difficult to handle and the film had to be taken to be developed with chemicals, everyone wanted to get in front of the camera when one was turned on. Today we can take video with cell phones and nobody wants to be seen, l go figure. 😀

          • blushedbrown says:

            sorry for the late response, was caught up today.

            I think you are right they are lone wolves, but they are good at what they do.

            If I knew what to do I would do the experiment myself, I have no clue how to to youtube videos. I would do it myself, if I had someone walk me through it.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            LLMPapa isn’t a lone wolf, didn’t he just announce a new addition to his family? Trent Sawyer is no lone wolf either, I often hear him talking to visitors in the background, off screen and sometimes they even remark. So you know there’s someone with him there.

            No, I think the problem is, none of the people they know are willing to appear on screen, and/or they’re unwilling to ask. But, as a general rule, you can usually find someone willing if you just ask around. A supermarket clerk or parking attendant, college student or just meet someone in the park or at a restaurant.
            Ask and you shall receive.

            They don’t realize how frustrating it is to watch these videos and not see someone trying to demonstrate the easiest thing of all. How difficult it would really be to draw a weapon as GZ says he did, while flat on his back. Worse yet, getting a straight in shot with the gun elbow on the ground. Just cut some cardboard templates of a gun and glue them together until you get some thickness and use that.

            I know these guys are good at what they do, we don’t have a flare for it. But, I guess they don’t have a flare for directing either. So, six of one, half dozen of the other, I guess. Meanwhile I keep googling around, every once in a while, to see if any more martial artists have done any work on the case.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr.

            LLMPapa isn’t a lone wolf, didn’t he just announce a new addition to his family? Trent Sawyer is no lone wolf either, …

            Most works of creation are independent. I personally don’t see where Trent using a real person would be more effective because GZ’s lies are clearly obvious before they are demonstrated on video anyway.

            I support LLMPapa, Trent, and Dave by sharing their videos with others.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes as do most of us, but what I want is something to clobber the Z’s with. That’s all.

          • racerrodig says:

            I’ll gladly volunteer. Many of us have tried to reenact his tale and it is impossible AND I have the script memorized already, listen.

            “…what are you doin around here..” “…who’s doing the breakin’s…..” “helpmehelpmehelpmehekpmehelpmehelpme”

            “..I don’t know…………I don’t know ’em…………..stop, mama !!!!! help……………………help…………………Aaaaaaaaaaaaa”

            So………………..did I pass the audition !!

          • Mornin’ Race

            I could think of a few more descriptive words than “clobber” if you get my drift?

          • racerrodig says:

            I’ll still volunteer, I’ll just bring my race car helmet….there is a solution for everything !!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            That’s it, by george I think you’ve got it!
            The pain in sprain is mainly in the brain!

          • racerrodig says:

            “The pain in sprain is mainly in the brain!”

            That’s pretty accurate !!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        What I read about that is that GZ was set up for “cross draw”, where he draws with his left hand, so the gun is kept on the right side. But, in this case he would have had to turn the gun, because he’d have to draw it with his right hand, since his left couldn’t reach.

        This is very confusing because, some times they say the gun is behind his right hip, meaning he couldn’t cross draw no matter how he was positioned. Cross draw requires the gun be within reach of your opposing hand, so it would have to be on the front right, with the butt facing left.

        Then there’s another missive out there that says the holster GZ has, can be worn with the gun butt facing either way. I guess it has clips on both sides. But, all that should pretty well be overridden by what MO tells us. Since he’s the one responsible for teaching and instructing GZ on weapons handling, he even picked out the Kel Tec 9 for GZ, my guess is because it fit GZ’s budget. So, if he says that GZ had to turn the gun, that means that’s the way he taught GZ to carry, and that’s the way GZ carried. After all, GZ spent the overnight with him, before the walk through. And, at the station that night, you can see that when GZ demonstrates how he drew, you can see he introduces that small twisting motion, as if he’s turning the gun in his hand. I’d say that’s three points of confirmation and not one point of denial, for the gun being on the right side in cross draw position.

      • Lynn says:

        Fogen demonstrates his kill shot each time with a smooth motion and an outstretched arm.

        On the other hand…Osterman says he pulled and turned gun to face forward and shot with his elbow on the grass.

        No way could he get to the off-center of the chest with a straight trajectory through the heart with his elbow on the grass! Someone didn’t listen to the storyteller well enough.

        Since he was using his left hand to tug on the shirts, he would have had to use only his right hand to draw the gun out from under his butt and spin it around like Quick Draw McGraw. Look Ma, One Hand!!!

        All the while doing this with Trayvon having octopus arms reaching for the gun, covering his mouth, smooshing his nose, banging his head, and keeping all that DNA out from under his fingernails.

        • racerrodig says:

          With as long as it would take Fogen to get his little piece out, common sense says, even in the dark a bad ass like “Black Dynamite Slim” would have swatted or grabbed Fogens little piece and would be able to force the gun in another direction, but since all of Fogens story is a lie and nobody on earth has yet been able to reenact his wild fight…………….as Roseann Roseannadana used to say………………..”Never Mind”

  15. looneydoone says:

    Did you notice who the 1 fan is ?? The very same “1 fan” of all the Leatherman imposters. That one’s very afraid of the Professor and those who comment here 😉

    • kindheart101 says:

      I did Looney. I have gone head to head with that one many times. I just wanted to let him know there was yet another snake in the grass.

    • kindheart101 says:


      Considering I don’t see LJP on the thread, I’m thinking it may be a sock, that fanned it’s self…….

      • looneydoone says:

        one of LJP’s several socks. Racerrodig says it’s papi zee. I suspect *it’s* either papi or jr (impossible to differentiate between the two)

        • kindheart101 says:

          I have thought all along it is the “elder”. I have even confronted, and told it so.

          • racerrodig says:

            And I’ll bet there was no denial.

          • kindheart101 says:

            Nope. I did my research. I saw when the account was set up Racer. He was online, but started commenting in late May, right after the going got rough. Little Z Junior would not have had the intellect, nor the guts to post online at that time. He only came to fame after Hannity, months later.

        • racerrodig says:

          Yep, LJP is Papi the magistrate. I have a connection who verified it with an IP address and he’s in the Federal Investigation end. I do have the last laugh on that one. Not only that I tell LJP point blank I know who he is and there is never, ever, a denial.

          He’s not fooling anyone.

  16. kindheart101 says:

    Dear Professor,

    This is yet another person, on HP, using your name.

    • I checked out the site Kind…..notice that this frederick has only been a member since Jan 2013….AND…..all the comments are dated between Jan 19th & Jan 21st.

      One comment insinuates that the prof must have injured himself dumpster diving…….

    • Xena says:

      It appears that each time HP bans them, they return with another avatar and another handle. It’s malicious because the way HP is setup, comments scroll down pages and pages so unless someone is following a particular person, they won’t see the impersonator anyway.

      • kindheart101 says:


        True, but after awhile you can pick them out. They all post the same, have disgusting avatars, and the stench is unmistakable. 🙂

        • Xena says:


          They all post the same, have disgusting avatars, and the stench is unmistakable. 🙂

          That’s because they’re sock puppets. They change from one handle to another to another and also use fake email addresses when submitting comments to blogs. They think they are staying hidden which speaks volumes, because if they were not violating terms of service and/or state and/or federal law, there would be no need to change handles and use fake email addresses.

          Just yesterday I read up on cyber laws. There’s a cause of action termed “bad light.”

          One thing for sure, if the professor was not credible, they would not be afraid of him. By comparison, I have not seen anyone impersonate sundance or Wagist.

  17. Thank you, Mr. and Mrs. Leatherman, for providing this forum.

    • racerrodig says:

      I’d be stunned if they stop attacking the victim, his family and lawyers. I predict they will do it through out the trial and the word “Objection” will end up with an over / under in Las Vegas.

      They have no morals at all. They treat this like a 1900’s crime that is….he’s black and that’s all there is to it, you’re free to go Fogen, no harm, no foul.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @racer, you are so right in the fact that these *IDIOTS* have no *MORALS* what so ever (my words) and they do indeed think this is a crime of the last century. this IMO is a shame to know that this country, will *NEVER* overcome the *HATRED* of black people because of some in this country.

        These people will never evolve because, they have been *TAUGHT* hatred for the black men/women and children from generation to generation. anytime a person can cheer on someone who murderers a child in cold blood, only because of the color of that child’s skin, “THERE IS SOMETHING VERY WRONG WITH THAT PERSON!”

        This POS is the only *MURDERER* of a child in this country, who has been supported by some in this country for his *CRIME!* yes indeed folks, these people as well as the family of the defendant, are definitely lacking in *MORALS.* Trayvon and his family don’t deserve to be disrespected like this. I’ve read all kinds of insults that have been directed to this kid and his family but, there is one that should have never be posted on you tube by an *IDIOT* who wrote, “I wish I lived in Florida, so I can go take a leisurely shit on Trayvon’s grave.” now, I know this is a country of free speech but, something like the above quote should not qualify as free speech and therefore it should not have been posted.

        We have some mighty sick people in this country!

      • Rachael says:

        I so totally agree.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I agree with you 100% ladystclaire when you write:

        > These people will never evolve because, they have been *TAUGHT* hatred for the black men/women and children from generation to generation. anytime a person can cheer on someone who murderers a child in cold blood, only because of the color of that child’s skin, “THERE IS SOMETHING VERY WRONG WITH THAT PERSON!” <

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Teaching people wrongly happens to all of us. At some point we learn the truth/correct/right or better ways and we make changes. The problem with these people is, in spite of being confronted with the truth time after time, they still insist on hanging onto the lie.
          That’s what we call “twisted”.

  18. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    May I never forget the blood, sweat and tears of those who worked so hard seeking civil rights and justice.

    As I enter into this day of remembrance, may I always stand up to protect the civil rights of all Americans. May I remain strong and steadfast when speaking up for others.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      • Xena says:

        When I went to the museum in Atlanta, I purchased that speech as a poster. Still have it and read it almost weekly.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        We are one in spirit, Xena. Bless you.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Good Night, Xena. 🙂

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Obama today is going to be placing his hand on both the Martin Luther King Bible and the Abraham Lincoln Bible as he takes the oath of office.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Excerpt from Obama’s inaugural address:

        “We, the people, declare today that the most evident of truths – that all of us are created equal – is the star that guides us still; just as it guided our forebears through Seneca Falls, and Selma, and Stonewall; just as it guided all those men and women, sung and unsung, who left footprints along this great Mall, to hear a preacher say that we cannot walk alone; to hear a King proclaim that our individual freedom is inextricably bound to the freedom of every soul on Earth.

        “It is now our generation’s task to carry on what those pioneers began. For our journey is not complete until our wives, our mothers, and daughters can earn a living equal to their efforts. Our journey is not complete until our gay brothers and sisters are treated like anyone else under the law – for if we are truly created equal, then surely the love we commit to one another must be equal as well. Our journey is not complete until no citizen is forced to wait for hours to exercise the right to vote. Our journey is not complete until we find a better way to welcome the striving, hopeful immigrants who still see America as a land of opportunity; until bright young students and engineers are enlisted in our workforce rather than expelled from our country. Our journey is not complete until all our children, from the streets of Detroit to the hills of Appalachia to the quiet lanes of Newtown, know that they are cared for, and cherished, and always safe from harm.

        “That is our generation’s task – to make these words, these rights, these values – of Life, and Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness – real for every American. Being true to our founding documents does not require us to agree on every contour of life; it does not mean we will all define liberty in exactly the same way, or follow the same precise path to happiness. Progress does not compel us to settle centuries-long debates about the role of government for all time – but it does require us to act in our time.”

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        January 21, 2012

  19. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    “Everybody can be great…because anybody can serve… You only need a heart full of grace. A soul generated by love.” – Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

  20. Jun says:

    I can see why bank robbers are easiest to work with as they are just acting out of greed, either their own, or the result of other people’s greed, in the Robin Hood operandi

  21. Jun says:

    More stupidity from Junior

    • Xena says:

      Yes, it is stupid and ignorant because Junior should know that no matter what investigators report and request, the buck continues or stops with the State’s Attorney. In this case, that was Wolfinger.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Do you think Rjr is going to continue to twitter for 25 years?

        • blushedbrown says:

          Didn’t you hear, Jr is going to run for congress, then the Presidency then go for World Domination. This is the plan, it starts with Twitter, everyone knows that. (snark) HA!!

        • Xena says:

          Do you think Rjr is going to continue to twitter for 25 years?

          That depends on whether Junior has his own ISP or WiFi. GZ’s expires in April 2014, and since Junior says the family is broke and living like vagabonds, he is probably using GZ’s WiFi that ShelLIE paid 2 yrs in advance from donated money.

        • racerrodig says:

          Probably, after all Stupid is as stupid does.

    • racerrodig says:

      That’s not exactly what Serino said either…..He just keeps making it up as he goes along.

      • Jun says:


        Serino stated that he felt there was not enough to move forward (at that specific time) and was probably the reasoning for all of Serino’s drafts on the indictment for Murder 2 or Manslaughter

        Yes, Serino did say he felt some pressure, but he was not forced, and the fact is that they were not all black cops that stated their opinion that they should indict Fogenhats, and they stated that to Serino (not all black cops)

        But yet again “the non racist anti-white spiel pushing” Junior focuses on “BLACKS”

        • Xena says:


          But yet again “the non racist anti-white spiel pushing” Junior focuses on “BLACKS”

          You mean Junior, the special guest of Randy Hahn who said of Trayvon, “that f—king little n—er deserved to be killed”? Yep. That would be the type of focus Junior supports.

        • racerrodig says:

          RZ jr makes it seem like Serino was adamant that there should never be charges. The FBI report does not say that at all. There is not a single Zidiot who can accept the fact that things change as time goes on. That would be the result of what is know as “ ongoing investigation..”

      • Jun says:

        The other stupidity of that post is that Corey indicted Fogenhats out of her own accord, and Corey being the strong vocal person she is, I highly doubt anyone can tell her what to do

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        When will Rjr read the evidence with honesty?

        • racerrodig says:

          My guess is when he’s in hell and Satan beats him over the head with it and says, no asswipe, you didn’t listen then and you won’t listen now……….. and stop using MY Twitter account……….

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thank you for all you do, LLMPapa in seeking justice for Trayvon.

      • Yahtc……..What I hear in that recording is NOT calls for help (ie….help me, help me….as fogen claims he called out). What I hear are screams of terror from someone who is panicking. Now if fogen was pulling out his gun, being careful not to shoot his left hand, and aiming it at Trayvon……why would HE be screaming out in terror..after all, he’s the one who’s got the gun pointed at the real terrorized victim.
        It makes me absolutely sick to hear those screams.
        It makes my blood boil to think that fogen claims that they are his screams and continues to drag Trayvon’s character through the mud. If I could choose a punishment for that mofo, I’d sentence him to solitary confinement and have a recorded loop of those screams, going off at irregular intervals, playing in his cell 24/7. And those screams would be loud enough that he couldn’t ignore them. Yep, forget general population with all the suspecious looking guys. Confine him in a cell with the last sounds that he heard coming from Trayvon….for his entire sentence.

  22. Chocolate Diva says:

    SMDH…. Now the GZ supporters are saying that O’mara needs to called NEN Shawn to the stand to prove to the jury when he said ” We don’t need you to do that” That GZ stop following TM. How do Shawn know he stop following or not.

    • Jun says:

      That is just plain stupidity

      Fogenhats would have been close to his car if his intention was to not stalk and terrorize the victim

      the police dispatch on the NEN call, asked him within about 10 seconds, if he was following, and then told him it was not necessary to pursue the victim

      If his intention was to go back to his car, he would have been there already, because the dispatch noticed he was following him due to the car sounds, and his replies to the police sounded as though he was stalking the victim

      • racerrodig says:

        Remember early in the NEN call when Sean says let us know what he does THEN later says to stop following. The Zidiots flip that around so as to make it seem Sean went don’t follow to you better act like a detective and follow him,oh, and feel free to do whatever you want.

        • blushedbrown says:

          First the zims supporters say Operators don’t have any legal authority. Then they say he wanted him to follow to so he can get an address. Now they say he did tell him not follow but he was now going back to his car. I wish they make up their minds on which lie to settle on. 😈

          • racerrodig says:

            The rude awakening is that the dispatcher is a sworn officer and does have authority.

            They won’t get the satisfaction of “I think I’ll call the police and just ignore what they tell me if I don’t like what I hear”

            Yeah, I wish they’d make up their collective minds also. I give that line to them on HP regularly when one of then goes hypocritical, which is often, or when one Zidiot say one thing and another argues the point. Get the lies straight !!

          • Xena says:


            They won’t get the satisfaction of “I think I’ll call the police and just ignore what they tell me if I don’t like what I hear”

            When Zidiots made that argument in Yahoo comments, I used to tell them that in the event they are having a heart attack, to make sure they tell whoever calls 911 that they don’t have to do what the dispatcher says. The same goes for smelling gas or smoke.

          • racerrodig says:

            The dispatcher is a sworn officer…It’s called Game – Set – Match.

          • Xena says:


            The dispatcher is a sworn officer…It’s called Game – Set – Match.

            Something I’ve notice about that Zidiot argument is that they seem to apply “We don’t need you to do that” in consideration of Trayvon. No. The dispatcher said that to GZ for GZ’s protection. Sean knew nothing about Trayvon other than what GZ told him.

            I’m very grateful that Sean discerned the changes in sound and asked GZ if he were following. Now, I wish that Sean had insisted that GZ meet the cops at the mail boxes rather than agreeing that they call for his location.

          • racerrodig says:

            ” Now, I wish that Sean had insisted that GZ meet the cops at the mail boxes rather than agreeing that they call for his location.”

            I understand but you do realize that “….have them call me… you have my number…” seals his fate. When he said that he might as well have said “…can you have them call me…..I’ll still be on the hunt…” as he did admit he was following Trayvon.

          • Xena says:


            I understand but you do realize that “….have them call me… you have my number…” seals his fate. When he said that he might as well have said “…can you have them call me…..I’ll still be on the hunt…” as he did admit he was following Trayvon.

            Oh yes!!! Another thing too is that GZ cannot compensate for the time. He could have returned to his truck 3 times over between 7:12:11 when he said “He ran” until 7:16: when the first 911 call came in reporting cries for help.

          • racerrodig says:

            I’ll bet it was Fogen who did the skipping !!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            GZ is asked not to follow, he says he has been following but okay, he won’t do that. But, he doesn’t return to his truck, instead he tells us he kept going over to RVC to get an address where the police can meet him when they arrive.

            Next, GZ tells the dispatcher that he’s not going to be at his truck when the police come, so he asks if they will call him, to find out where he is when they arrive. The next reports we have is of someone screaming, but not for someone to come help, but simply screaming in terror, yelling nooooo, mama! and goes quiet when a shot is heard. Then the police arrive and find GZ covered in blood, claiming that he was nearly beaten to death by an unarmed teenager. He claims he had no choice but to shoot to kill the teen, because he was getting hit by hands that were like bricks.

            According to GZ, this happened at the T, where he was attempting to walk back to his truck! Walk back to his truck after telling the dispatcher that he would not be there when the police arrived, so they should call him, because he will be somewhere else.

            Now, why would GZ want to be somewhere other than at his truck? And why would he tell the dispatcher to have the police call, to find him, if he intended to be at his truck?

            GZ doesn’t want to tell the police that he’s going back to his truck so he can meet them there. But, somehow TM attacks him and prevents him from doing, what he’s already told the dispatcher he was not going to do!

            A Jury is going to want to know why GZ is so confused about what he was going to do about arranging to have the police meet him. Why was he traveling all that distance from his truck, to get an address that he wasn’t going to wait at for the police? Why did he tell the police not to look for him at his truck, if that’s where he was heading when he claims he was attacked?

            The answers to these questions point to a person making self serving statements, in an attempt to conceal his real actions. Such a person would have to conceal their real actions because, if they didn’t they would face life in prison. My guess is, most people would attempt to lie, rather than accept a life in prison if they could avoid it.

            Apparently GZ thinks that, trying to avoid being sentenced to prison for life, is not a good and sufficient motivation for lying. Or, at least, that most people won’t believe that a “respickable” citizen wouldn’t lie to avoid prison. 😀

          • “I don’t remember”
            “I have a bad memory”
            “I forget”

          • racerrodig says:

            All of which points to a Depraved Mind.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr.

            The answers to these questions point to a person making self serving statements, in an attempt to conceal his real actions.

            O’Mara wants to avoid everything that happened before the altercation by abandoning SYG for traditional self-defense because he knows under SYG and what the evidence supports, GZ doesn’t have a snowball chance in hell of being acquitted.

            There’s still a problem with O’Mara’s argument for traditional self-defense however. That problem is that O’Mara says GZ had no opportunity to remove himself from the situation because Trayvon had him pinned.

            Now we get to GZ’s testimony. He shimmied so that his head was no longer on the concrete, providing reasonable belief that (1) he was not physically pinned where he could not move and (2) he was no longer under danger of having his head bashed on concrete. GZ could have continued to shimmy and totally removed himself from underneath Trayvon.

            GZ says that his jacket and shirt raised revealing his gun, thereby providing reasonable belief that his body was free from the hips up. He then demonstrated that Trayvon removed his hand from his mouth, thereby removing the threat of suffocation. And, he demonstrated that he pinned Trayvon’s arm preventing him from reaching the gun.

            Based on GZ’s statements, he was under no threat at the time he fired his gun.

            Then we have debris, and DNA forensic evidence that refutes GZ’s story that he was pinned.

          • racerrodig says:

            the prosecution has every base covered and even a spare room at “The Prison Inn”

          • Xena says:


            the prosecution has every base covered and even a spare room at “The Prison Inn”

            Absolutely! I don’t remember much of Corey’s press conference when she announced the charge, but do remember her saying the evidence is there and they just had to connect the dots.

          • racerrodig says:

            Note to Fogen,

            the dots are connected…the dots are connected

            The chair is against the wall….the chair is against the wall

            John has a long mustache……John has a long mustache

          • Xena…..Ya know….That’s one thing I hadn’t considered yet….the position of Trayvons body if he were astride fogen……If this were true? Then Trayvon must have been sitting with his ass somewhere between fogen crotch & knees ????????

            I think I need to go buy a taller pair of boots… 😐

          • Xena says:


            If this were true? Then Trayvon must have been sitting with his ass somewhere between fogen crotch & knees ????????

            Right, with extra, extra long arms able to still press on GZ’s nose with all his weight, and an additional length on his right arm to reach across his left arm to go for the gun. Did you see GZ’s demonstration of that when he went for the voice stress test? Unbelievable.

          • blushedbrown says:

            @MMP & Xena,

            Remeber this LLMPapa video about all those hands…..

          • Xena says:

            @blushedbrown. Ooooh YEAH! I love the way LLMPapa exposes GZ’s inconsistencies and lies.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Exactly!!! After telling the dispatcher that he, essentially doesn’t know where he will be, and they should therefore call him to find out where to meet him. He then tries to tell everyone the story that, he was in the process of returning to his truck!

            He can’t have it both ways and I’m sure the jurors will catch that. He can’t be both on his way back to his truck, and yet, not know where he will be when the police arrive!

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr.

            He can’t have it both ways and I’m sure the jurors will catch that. He can’t be both on his way back to his truck, and yet, not know where he will be when the police arrive!

            Oh Lonnie, GZ wants it 3 ways. He wants the cops to call for his location. He wants to get an address to call dispatch back with it, and he wants to be walking back to his truck after getting that address but not calling dispatch with it.

            He has a bad memory and cannot remember the name of the street he was on, but can get a house address and remember it until he gets back to his truck. And, this was so important to him that he forgot which pocket his cell phone was in when he needed it.

          • racerrodig says:

            I don’t know

            I can’t recall

            I don’t remember

            It was dark

            He came from nowhere

            He came from the bushes

            I have ADHD Oh look….a red schruck !!

            I have PTSD

            I was attacked at the T while bitch slapping flies

            My friend has short term vision and I think I have it now

            We could go on…

          • We could go on?

            I’m a failure at nearly every thing I’ve attempted in life
            I’m not that bright
            I have a littleman complex
            Combined with a hero complex (Thanks Serrino) 🙂

            And the list could still go on

          • racerrodig says:

            Not to mention my whole life is like a cartoon…..after all I did marry SheLie who looks just like Miss Piggy.

          • racerrodig says:

            Pretty sure Fogen won’t have him over for dinner though.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Now, now racer we must not tarnish Miss Piggy that way, remember your promise to the Prof. 🙂

            You are on a 3 minute time out. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Fogen made me do ….I appeal for immunity. Oh, and my 3 minutes is up.

          • blushedbrown says:


            Ok I take your plea of “fogen made me do it” and give you time served. You may return to the group. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Thank You……I’ll bet she cringes big time when he says :um….lets have bacon and eggs for breakfast”

          • blushedbrown says:

            Cringing…… You are a riot!

      • Jun says:


        “Within about 10 seconds of Fogenhats opening his car door and getting out”

        wrote that wrong

        but anyways, it was Non Emergency and the dispatch never told him to play wanna be cop detective, because the dispatch is probably used to Fogenhats’ wanna be cop actions from past calls and knew he was nonsense from the onset

      • Puck says:

        As I’ve posted here a couple of times, I’m big on analysis of the tone of GZ’s voice on the NEN call, not just what he says. Notice that right after GZ *agrees* to meet the police by the mailboxes, he suddenly interjects over Sean when he says “Actually, could you have them call me [etc.]” — as many have pointed out, this seems to indicate he has suddenly located Trayvon. GZ takes down the volume of his speech, and it kind of sounds like he might even be cupping his mouth and the phone microphone with his other hand. If so, that would transparently be because he doesn’t want Trayvon to hear him, and that he’s moving in for the kill.

        • Xena says:


          I’m big on analysis of the tone of GZ’s voice on the NEN call, not just what he says.

          Absolutely! When GZ says “He ran” he sounds disappointed. When he says “I don’t know where this kid is,” his tone changes. When he changes plans and wants the cops to call him for his location, Trayvon was talking on his phone then.

          GZ could have told Sean that he heard Trayvon and gave him the location, but no, GZ could not let the cops handle the situation because they would have found that GZ wrongfully profiled and terrorized a kid.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          If GZ is closing in on Trayvon at this time, or, if he’s even in a position to close in on him, that means he had to be moving south from the moment he left his truck. He probably stopped running south on TTL when he reached the first cut through, he peeked through there, then went back over to TTL and continue south to the next one. When he came through that one for a look, TM, who had probably been moving close to the western buildings and taking his time, was now crossing over east towards his house when GZ finally spotted him approaching. GZ ends his NeN call and emerges behind Trayvon as he makes for the patio door. TM realizes the crazy dude is behind him again and turns away from the house.

          GZ would expect TM to be heading for the back gate, so when he comes out of the cut through, he circles toward the south, to cut him off from the back gate. So, all Trayvon can do is head back south to get away from GZ.

      • Puck says:


        Did you catch my comment a short while back about how “And he’s a black male” is perhaps the most revelatory statement of the entire NEN call in terms of understanding GZ’s mindset?

        • Xena says:


          Did you catch my comment a short while back about how “And he’s a black male” is perhaps the most revelatory statement of the entire NEN call in terms of understanding GZ’s mindset?

          I’m sorry Puck, but i didn’t and feel that you deserve to know why. I receive notifications/new comments by email. At times, there are over 50, so I scroll through and unless there is something that says @Xena, I do not read them. Some days I’m able to come directly to this site and catch-up on comments and some days I simply don’t have the time, whether that’s 10 comments or a hundred.

          In other words, it’s not the comment, value or who posts it, but rather, my available time and the active participation here — which makes this blog great.

          If you can lead me to your previous comment or repost it, I will appreciate it.

      • Puck says:


        The comment is here, with follow-ups:

        You did actually post here but of course I can’t expect you or anyone else to remember every post they write or reply to. (At least this place isn’t as insane as bcclist was in terms of lumping EVERYTHING into two or three gargantuan threads each spanning months.)

        Anyway, what I posted there is self-explanatory. My being a sociologist with a background in textual and rhetorical analysis (through my work in English) has led me to take some novel approaches in my own research. The NEN call still fascinates me in this regard, as do the police station interviews (though I’d have to watch these again to post similar analyses).

        • Xena says:

          @Puck. Thanks for providing the link. Now I remember. I didn’t say more in that thread because others posted what I would have said. It did puzzle me that GZ would confirm Trayvon’s race. Your analysis was on target.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I am going to post it again here, Puck, because I think your analysis is sooo good:

        >>Puck says:
        January 8, 2013 at 3:00 pm
        “In my academic work (sociology) I do quite a bit of content and discourse analysis, and my earlier work in English literature finely honed my critical reading skills. As a result, I’ve become very good at filling out social “pictures,” if you will, in terms of the broader meanings, (inter)actions, true underlying motivations, and so on, and these I support with solid arguments supported by established social and cultural theory.

        “The NEN call has always fascinated me; it’s a goldmine for this sort of analysis. The professor says that he “cannot shake [his] suspicion that [GZ] was playing a role starring in his own movie.” This is exactly right. GZ was role-playing that night, and this becomes clear upon careful listening and analysis of not just what he says but *how* he says it in the call as well as later police interviews. (I could take this a step further and suggest that he was fulfilling a certain non-sexual cop-and-thug fetish, but I’d have to write something much more academic involving Foucault.) In symbolic interactionist theory, we often say “role taking,” which is certainly what GZ does here.

        “There’s one line in the NEN call that confirms this for me: “And he’s a black male.” Listen to it a few times. Note that his voice changes to a more matter-of-fact tone that one would expect from a police officer. He doesn’t sound like he did earlier when he said “he *looks* ba-lack” (clearly feigning uncertainty to deflect accusations of immediate profiling). Moreover, was there really a reason for him to re-state Trayvon’s race? Did this need to be confirmed? My belief is that he said this beause he *wanted* to, or even *needed* to in order to continue performing this role. In that moment, in his mind and phenomenologial experience, he *was* a police officer by virtue of being connected to actual LE; he *was* representing LE *by association* through communication. He was the only one out there, communicating details of a “suspect” (remember, he referred to Trayvon as such in his written statement — another dead giveaway). Taking this further, it can be argued that “shit, he’s running” is also GZ speaking as LE, would, in their terms and their tone.

        “Then there’s “toward the back entrance.” Listen to this a few times too. It seems the consensus is that his tone of voice is the result of his being somewhat winded from running. I have always heard something different: that strange tone you sometimes get when you’re experiencing an adrenaline rush — that sudden warm feeling and lump in the throat. This is a much more subjective, gut interpretation on my part, but consider it nonetheless. In that moment, he was finally doing it! He was finally chasing down an “asshole,” a “fucking coon” (I have never heard “punk” or “goon” or “cold” even when these are suggested before re-listening; let’s be real here, it was “coon”), he was finally getting his chance to impress the boys at Sanford PD, who might put in a good word for him so that he could get into the police academy after all. Or perhaps it was his moment to impress upon the HOA that he should be allowed to patrol with a gun, but given GZ’s LE obsession, I think the former was more likely.

        “Finally, consider “I don’t know where this kid is.” People focus on “kid” to further establish that GZ knew Trayvon was a teenager, and rightly so. But again, his tone here is a bit like “and he’s a black male.” (I can imagine him acting all cool here, slealthily moving around with his gun in one hand and flashlight held at shoulder level, like on TV, though we’ll never know.)

        “Of course, my interpretations, however informed, are still mine, and as such are open to criticism and dispute. Still, I’ve listened to the NEN call many, many times, as we all have, and the foregoing is what I’ve always felt and thought. This isn’t court material; rather, these are a series of impressions of what GZ might have been thinking, and more importantly, *feeling* during his hunt.”<

    • blushedbrown says:


      I hope they put Sean the operator on the stand, so he can tell the jury how he also heard the racking of the gun, and that’s why he speeded up his questions to GZ. I think Sean, would be instrumental in how he perceived gZ on the phone, in comparison to other callers he has taken with reporting something suspcious and waiting for LE.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Blushbrown, now I know I’m not alone in the fact that he could be heard racking/cocking his gun as he exited his vehicle. as for his brother, can the judge put a muzzle on him at all?

        • blushedbrown says:


          I do hear the racking of a gun before he says his last name on the NeN call. This has been debated endlessly. Some people think its him hitting the flashlight, some people think its him knocking on John’s door, some people think its the racking of the gun. Imo, I have always maintained that he racked the gun. Gun sounds have been compared and people have found the the gun is not being racked. I have concluded that each gun has its own characteristics. The feel of it, the sound of it, the weight of it. The maintenance of anybodys gun will have effects to that particluar gun. That is me using basic common sense. I have heard guns being racked and used, even though I am not a gun owner. I took the whole call in context to come up with my conclusion.

          I wish that audio interview with Singleton and Serino playing the call to GZ about his NeN, asking him questions at different points of the call, that we could SEE his body language. I would hope to see that video interview for us for review.

          Muzzle on Jr. I say let him keep talking he is doing himself and his family no good. I hope they use him as a character witnesss. He will fail.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I heard that gun cocking, too, ladystclaire.

        Why do you need to cock a gun, gz, if you are only looking for an address after saying “okay” to the dispatcher when he told you that “we don’t need you to do that” when you admitted you were following Trayvon??

        • The “racking” could not have been fogens firearm as the PF 9 is listed as a 6+1…….6 rounds in the magazine + 1 in the chamber…..which is what the cops say in their report that they recovered 6 live rounds and 1 spent cartridge……even if he were to “racked” one…..he would have had to drop the magazine and add 1 more round that have what was found at the scene.

          • blushedbrown says:


            You are a gun owner, and I respect your expertise. Let me ask you a question, is it possible that he racked it even though he may have not needed to do see, considering that he was excited and the thought of catching “an asshole” made him racked the gun anyway?

            Please listen to the whole call, and pay special attention @ the 2:40
            mark. I am interested in your thoughts as to the whole call leading up to the “racking sounds” and there after.

          • Blushed…..if th firearm was to have had one in the chamber when he “racked” it…..then he would have ejected a live round, chambering another live round from the magazine…Follow?

            So for him to have the number of rounds….6 live and one spent as per the police report…..then he would have had to pick up the live round he ejected…..dropped the magazine and reinserted the live round back into the magazine….and reinserted the magazine into the weapon……….Or else??????? Someone else was with him cocking a handgun.

          • blushedbrown says:



            Blushed…..if th firearm was to have had one in the chamber when he “racked” it…..then he would have ejected a live round, chambering another live round from the magazine…Follow?

            Yes, I follow. So, IF and only he had one chambered already an ejected live round would of came out. So, its possible that no live round was ever in then chamber. Is that possible?

            ……….Or else??????? Someone else was with him cocking a

            Hmmmm, its starting to lean more and more in that direction, considering the count of ammo.

          • racerrodig says:

            “So, its possible that no live round was ever in then chamber. Is that possible?”

            No, the gun won’t fire, it must be “charged” or “racked” and a live round in the chamber. After that it’s on “rock and roll” until it’s empty.

          • blushedbrown says:



            No, the gun won’t fire, it must be “charged” or “racked” and a live round in the chamber. After that it’s on “rock and roll” until it’s empty.

            Then the chamber was racked, BECAUSE no live round was in the chamber at the time. Hence what we hear in the NeN call.

          • Again that’s if…..and only if fogen had an extended magazine?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Not quite, you’re forgetting that the clip that holds the rest of the rounds would then be one short. There’s only room for 6 in the clip.

            You put the clip in the gun with six rounds in it.

            Then you rack the gun, loading one live round into the chamber.
            That leaves 5 in the clip.

            Then you remove the clip with five rounds in it, and put another round in, making it 6 in the clip. Then you put the clip back in the gun and your loaded in what they call +one. Meaning a full clip plus one in the chamber.

            So, if GZ didn’t rack his gun, and I don’t think he did because the raps on the flashlight or whatever, come too close to the racking sound. Also the racking sound is just a wee bit fainter, so it sounds like it’s a few feet away.

            Mind you, I’m not talking about the sound heard in the truck, I’m talking about the sound heard when GZ takes those three raps on the flashlight, which some are saying is GZ knocking on a door.

          • racerrodig says:

            No !!!!!! I researched this last night. We were led to believe his gun held 6. The magazine holds 7 and one in the chamber for a total of 8. * are accounted for. One spent casing, one loose round that was ejected from the chamber and 6 in the magazine….that’s 8 so he did not rack his gun during the call, it was already ready to rock which is illegal !! Even the police are forbidden to have a round in the chamber in this condition. One more little illegality which I pointed out last year to the Zidiots.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, I read your post after I posted that. With hundreds of post coming in and moy stock rising like gang busters, I’m a little overwrought. Carry on.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        You are the expert, not I, Pat. I will try again to remember what you have just said because you have told me before. I accept your conclusion.

        What do I do with my ears, though, Pat? 🙂

        • YAHTC….listen to the Lure of Little Voices by R.W. Service

          There’s a cry from out the loneliness — oh, listen, Honey, listen!
          Do you hear it, do you fear it, you’re a-holding of me so?
          You’re a-sobbing in your sleep, dear, and your lashes, how they glisten —
          Do you hear the Little Voices all a-begging me to go?

          All a-begging me to leave you. Day and night they’re pleading, praying,
          On the North-wind, on the West-wind, from the peak and from the plain;
          Night and day they never leave me — do you know what they are saying?
          “He was ours before you got him, and we want him once again.”

          Yes, they’re wanting me, they’re haunting me, the awful lonely places;
          They’re whining and they’re whimpering as if each had a soul;
          They’re calling from the wilderness, the vast and God-like spaces,
          The stark and sullen solitudes that sentinel the Pole.

          They miss my little camp-fires, ever brightly, bravely gleaming
          In the womb of desolation, where was never man before;
          As comradeless I sought them, lion-hearted, loving, dreaming,
          And they hailed me as a comrade, and they loved me evermore.

          And now they’re all a-crying, and it’s no use me denying;
          The spell of them is on me and I’m helpless as a child;
          My heart is aching, aching, but I hear them, sleeping, waking;
          It’s the Lure of Little Voices, it’s the mandate of the Wild.

          I’m afraid to tell you, Honey, I can take no bitter leaving;
          But softly in the sleep-time from your love I’ll steal away.
          Oh, it’s cruel, dearie, cruel, and it’s God knows how I’m grieving;
          But His loneliness is calling, and He knows I must obey.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          But, that is definitely the sound of a kel tec pf 9 being racked, so, if it isn’t GZ doing it, then there’s someone else there doing it. They did say that GZ and Shelly both had the same guns. So, maybe GZ had his wifes gun and MO or someone else had his gun? In any case, something unexplained was going on out there.

          That sound is not being generated by sound alike things, because there simply aren’t that many things that sound like it, that would be available out there in the dark rainy Sunday night.

          • @Lonnie….You do agree about the capacitu of the PF 9 and the number of rounds the cops found at the scene…..6 live, 1 spent?…..

            Also No one has been able to find any records of fogen buying a firearm….or being ordered to surrender it…& it was shellie’s firearm he used in the murder……..if that sound is of a pistol being “racked”….it wasn’t fogens… someone else would have had to have been with him.

          • racerrodig says:

            Sometimes you can get 1 extra above the stated capacity. I have a PPK and 2 extra PPKS magazines. I can get 1 extra in each mag. The stock is 7 and I can put 8 in. It is not recommended as it can cause a feed jam and / or wear the follower spring out. The PPKS hold 8 and I can pack 9 in. My PT 9 Taurus which is a Barretta clone has a 15 round mag that will hold 16 with no problem and 17 with a mighty squeeze.

          • @ Lonnie… your PPK a .32 cal.?…..excellent weapon….In fact it was James Bonds weapon of choice.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            No that’s racer, not me I don’t own. When I go to gun ranges I get marksman rated, but I don’t own. Yes, James did love his Walther PPK.

          • racerrodig says:

            In fact mine is .32 ACP. It is so accurate it is scary because the barrel is pinned to the frame where most auto pistols the barrel “floats” Mine was willed to me and was issued to a notorious Nazi officer at Dachau. It does have some historical significance as my wife’s father relieved him of it in 1945.

          • Racerrodig…

            That’s why I mentioned it……..the Walther PPK are firearms that should go down in history such as the Peacemakes and others.

            Is this piece of family history is something you would give up if asked?

          • racerrodig says:

            My wife’s father who passed away before I met her, took it from a high ranking notorious Nazi officer when they liberated Dachau. I have the documentation and there is actually a picture of him on the Wiki site about him (I forgot his name !!) using that pistol to point with. He was the one who made the spot decisions who went where. I have his name in my file cabinet in the house. If you want, I’ll let you know.

          • I like my firearms a bit older…..actually alot older……..and I WOULD NOT want a firearm that has spilled human blood.

          • racerrodig says:

            This was probably never fired prior to it’s seizure to be honest. It was willed to me and just the value is why I keep it. However, it is so accurate this is the 1st one I’d pick up in any self defense home situation. You would be stunned at what this little thing does as far as repeat accuracy……..Stunned !!

          • Actually I wouldn’t as I’ve owned one before…..That’s why I rank it with the Peacemaker & the Army Walker…..well designed & well made…..IN QUANTITY

          • racerrodig says:

            There ya go then.

          • I couldn’t hit anything with a standard issue M1911….let lone hit it twice 😦

          • racerrodig says:

            Same here. A friend of mine used to shoot competitively, rifle & pistol and he had several 1911’s with a ton of mods. The stock one’s I could only embarrass myself with.

          • blushedbrown says:


            You should produce a Youtube video showing us what you are describing, that a mag can hold 8.

          • racerrodig says:

            I have no idea how to do that but my son does. I can actually modify most mags to hold even more, just shorten the spring, then stretch it so it has enough tension. It always works it just requires replacing the spring at one point if you keep the mag loaded.

          • @Racerrogig

            I build & shoot front stuffers 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Really !! My dad had an old muzzle loader from around 1800. He called it his Daniel Boonie….I have no idea what make or anything other than …….that baby was old !! He was a cop and a collector. He sold it all off because my brothers were fighting cats & dogs over his stuff as he got older. That’s life !!

          • kindheart101 says:


            You and Mountain are cracking me up! Everything from guns to height………….some real male bonding going on here……..ROFLMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

            Oh…….I am roaring…….sorry, continue.

          • racerrodig says:

            ThanXXXXX I love meeting people and I’ll say this place is the bee’s knee’s. You guys and gals really help me with staying upbeat in this troubled day & age.

          • I had an ex girlfriend like that…..her Dad’s DXed with Meso……and her and her brothers are like a pack of vultures over who gets what……WTF….ur Dad’s dyin’ and all ur thinkin’ about is his stuff?

            He did die last year… of the best men I’ve had the pleasure of knowing…..SOB…….Sorry ‘Ol Bill

          • racerrodig says:

            Know the routine. My dad just died on Christmas…..but my one brother did wear his best green Hawaiian shirt to the funeral. It’s a long story……………

          • I want to live a life that westboro baptist will make special effort to picket my funeral……such an honor 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Dude……’re killin’ me….I tell ya…..

            I’m packing it in….have a great night…..

          • U 2 my friend 🙂


          • blushedbrown says:


            Thank you that explains alot. Someone like Osterman would/ or should have that kind of knowledge. I don’t think GZ is smart enough to do that kind of modification, though it seems simple to do, I would think he would use someone like Osterman to accomplish that.

          • this should even be found on youtube….I haven’t looked……you won’t believe the instruction videos that can be found on youtube !!!!!!!!

          • blushedbrown says:


            Aint that the truth.
            I found a video how to put on my eyeliner correctly!

          • And I found plans for a Potato cannon 🙂

          • blushedbrown says:


            They have everything on Youtube!!

          • racerrodig says:

            I remember those !!!!! We used an old wrapping paper cardboard tube and any soda or beer can……..and we used tennis balls which are a perfect fit…….great for long range.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Agreed, we’re on the same page. I postulated long ago that the sound seemed to be of someone else working the gun. The thing is, GZ went shooting monthly with MO. MO would easily have been able to afford an extra kel tec 9. He’d certainly know enough to have the same gun as GZ, if he were going to be in a position of patrolling with him. That way the chances are better, that if he’s heard adjusting the gun, it can pass as GZ doing it, allowing him to remain undetected, among other things.

            Originally I had thought that, since GZ was impoverished anyway, that MO was funding the purchase of the two guns. Apparently that was not the case. But, from the talk about GZ and MO going shooting in MO’s backyard, and what MO says about gun, I may have mistakenly drawn the impression that MO owns a kel tec 9 himself. If he does, however, then that’s what we are hearing.

            There also does appear to be a lot of different noises in the truck for one person. Even something that sounds like someone whispering “tell him”, in the background.

            Well, so far all I can really say is, I can’t shake the feeling that GZ had one or more people providing back up assistance.

            It just doesn’t fit for me, psychologically, that GZ would simply up and go out, impromptu and commit a murder. But, if he did, he is too lucky to be believed, in managing to wind up bleeding professedly in the very few minutes available, to bolster his story.
            A ploy that people who tell me no, GZ didn’t arrange that blood and those wounds, ignore that if the “fix” were already in so well that GZ did not need a coherent story, why would he have needed any gory blood? See? Every time I go back over the evidence, he either needs things or he does not.

            When I point out that he needs them, I’m told that he gets them by either accident or coincidence, thereby disproving that he had any assistance. Then, later on, even more assistance appears. So often does this happen that, GZ would have had to have more luck than anyone since the big bang. LOL, so for sure GZ had help and this killing is a direct result of a conspiracy.

            Of course that will be hard to prove, so I don’t think the SP should bother with it, unless or until someone steps forward or they otherwise get proof positive, because even without a conspiracy they can get a conviction. But, I keep looking because who knows, maybe they made a big enough mistake somewhere and the whole thing gets exposed. (Obama’s inauguration in the background)

          • Q Lonnie…..any chance that fogen would throw someone else under the bus, saying it was their idea to save his own ass?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I think GZ would roll on anyone he could, but I don’t think he will if they’re in LE, because they would tell him, they could get to him no matter where he goes. He’d be too afraid of that. I think he’d change his tune if he could get witness protection though, but then, he’d have to lose the trial first and get an intolerable sentence.

          • I’m thinking more along the lines of shellie or osterman……Comments?

          • blushedbrown says:


            Top two on my list.

            They are neck and neck in my anaylsis.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I think he’d be afraid to roll on MO without WP, Shelly? Maybe, but she may know so much that it probably wouldn’t be wise for him to do it. More likely she’d roll on him. My guess is if MO were to worry about GZ rolling on him, he’d probably get Shelly to roll on GZ first.
            Holy Rolling Batman. lol

          • blushedbrown says:

            @ Lonnie

            Holy Rolling Batman!


          • BTW someone who has sense enough not to be walking around with a round in the chamber…..

          • racerrodig says:

            ……..with a piece of junk pistol that has no safety !!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            The Kel Tec 9 has a “safety feature” that consists of a 5 lb trigger pull and a long double acting trigger pull, making it unlikely to discharge accidentally.

          • racerrodig says:

            In common parlance it’s an unsafe piece of shit. I’d never own one.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I’ll bet he had to borrow money from either Shelly or Osterman to buy the gun, which is probably why he gets the cheapest one. GZ doesn’t impress me as the kind of person people make personal loans to very often. :LOL:

          • racerrodig says:

            Can’t argue that. They go to the gun range to practice and Osterman buys about about $100.00 worth of ammo and actually shoots 4 mags up.

            Fogen says “…um I’m a little short today, can I catch up with ya next time.

            MO “…oh sure buddy, use what ya want”

            Fogen proceeds to shoot up all of Ostermans ammo…..nice guy.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Oh, Pat……I read the first line of that poem…..and thought how alone Trayvon was when gz cruelly shot him to death.

        I did read the whole poem……..very moving.

      • Xena says:

        Gun’s cocking sound.

        • Then how does one explain the number of rounds (7) found at the crime scene……did he carry an extra bullet in his pocket ah la Barney Fife?

          OR………Was someone else in the car with him cocking a pistol?

          • blushedbrown says:


            Hmmm. Interesting about the round count. Maybe Smith helped him out? IDK.

            Someone else, with a gun also with him, that sounds good.

          • kindheart101 says:

            @Blushedbrown and Mountainmanpat.

            I have always thought someone else was there that night.

          • blushedbrown says:


            I agree. I think someone was with him till the point when he went looking for Trayvon. I think they were in the truck. Listen to NeN call. You hear two car doors closing.

            @7:11:45:03 first car door close sounds further away

            @7:11:48:10 second door closes sounds like his door sounds louder.

          • kindheart101 says:


            What we hear on the tape may never be proven. Yet, in my gut, I just don’t think he would have had the “balls” to follow on his own, even being armed. He needs an audience, has to feel big, and would need someone to have his back. (Just my opinion)

          • blushedbrown says:


            His biggest audience is Shellie, imo. Going back to all his NeN calls, its always my wife this, my wife that. Even in his reenactment, my wife this, my wife that. In written statements, my wife this, my wife that. It is very telling as to who was with him in that truck. First he says Trayvon was trying to see who was in the truck. That implies to me more than one. He also said on Hannity, my wife and I always do the grocery shopping on Sunday’s. Implies to me that she goes along on these shopping trips. Shellie also has a gun/permit that has now been revoked. He also told neighbors that he and shellie were gun owners, that they should get guns also. Shellie is my number one pick as the other person with him. She has not done any interviews. She has lied to the court for him. She is the one who can break George, IMO. If she tells on him, she tells on herself. And he knows it, she knows it.

          • kindheart101 says:

            hmmmmmmmmmm certainly would explain why he had no money or credit cards on him if he was going to Target, as he said. (Which I don’t believe either)

            Blushed……….you give me much to think about over the next few days. Hopefully, I will be home Wednesday, so I can catch up on everything that has been posted. 🙂 I will miss all of you, your thoughts, and the kindness you have shown to me.

            Be well.

            Justice for Trayvon.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Yes it would.
            The only way I will believe the “we always do the shopping on Sundays” which has been stated by him and Dad, if they show receipts, or credit card statements showing all Food purchases consistently being made on Sundays.

            I hope is all is well KindHeart, and hope to see your fonts in the middle of the week.

            Be Well


          • I think shellie is realizing that she’s going to be husbandless now….

            Why not throw fogen under the bus to save her own ass?

          • blushedbrown says:


            >I think shellie is realizing that she’s going to be husbandless now….


            >Why not throw fogen under the bus to save her own ass?

            Her ass is not that much in a sling. Lookit, she only has a perjury charge. Big deal. 5 years is the max, first offense, she will get a slap on the wrist. Probation more then likely. 1 year prolly, can be done with her eyes closed. She knows about these things, (father’s run in with the law and mother). Why risk it. If she takes the whole situation in account, he did the shooting, not her. He admitted to it, not her. He has not admitted to anyone that someone was with him, and if he did, and he says it was her, she will undoubtedly throw him under the bus because he did it first to her.

            I will have to review all the jail house calls between the two, to get a better sense of her. The few that I did listen too, gave me the impression that she will voice herself to him, but he doesn’t like it. Hence the hang up on her. But then she calls back with the baby talk to pacify him. I will make a point of listening to each and every call even if I need to buy a whole bottle of aspirin, tums and anti -nausea medication.

          • racerrodig says:

            STOP THE PRESSES !!!!!!!!!!!

            You are all assuming that Fogen qualifies as an actual “Husband”
            If that’s the case then I could be King of the World and not screw it up.

            Husband…..A hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha !! Really, that tickles my funny bone.

          • blushedbrown says:


            Ok then his not a husband in the true sense of the word. The presses may continue. 🙂 😆

          • racerrodig says:

            Thank you…….as if Fogen deserves the same title & respect us real husbands had to earn…..the bastard.

          • blushedbrown says:


            No offense to the real husbands made of steel. 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Leading me to say, SheLie would never be able to attract a real man.

          • racerrodig says:

            Not to mention I promised the Professor I’d stop saying she looks like Miss Piggy…….oppps

          • Xena says:


            She has lied to the court for him.

            Know what’s so telling about their relationship in that regard? In his jailhouse calls, he didn’t tell her to lie. She just knew to lie because of his instructions on transferring the money. GZ wanted her to do that because he did not bother correcting her testimony — sat like a potted palm.

            GZ didn’t bother telling ShelLIE anything about the password and how to access his Paypal account until AFTER he was in jail and could not access it himself. Had he not been arrested, he would have had access to over $200,000 while on the run in hiding, and ShelLIE would have been a dependent on the Osterman’s.

            According to the credit union statements, ShelLIE withdrew a significant amount of money in cash. I wonder if GZ knew that? No honor among thieves.

          • blushedbrown says:


            Yes. He didn’t have to tell her do it. She just did. Which is very bad on her because he is being charged with a murder 2 and it makes her look like an accomplice after the fact.

            >>GZ didn’t bother telling ShelLIE anything about the password and how to access his Paypal account until AFTER he was in jail and could not access it himself.

            Yes. Goes to his control issues. Shellie in his mind can not handle these things.

            Most woman in relationships know passwords for bank accounts , facebook accounts, etc, of our mate. Most thinking women will not stand for nothing less, we want to know everything, we usually control and maintain spending in the household. We usually make all the deposits and make sure things are getting paid. We usually do all the grocery shopping. This is not the case for them.

            It goes to his control issues over her.

          • Xena says:

            Based on GZ’s jailhouse phone calls, he is controlling and also lacking confidence in ShelLIE’s abilities. Yet, ShelLIE is cunning. He did not instruct her to withdraw cash and put it in her pocket, but she did. In effect, she stole from her husband.

            That makes it all the more credible what Judge Lester said; i.e., if not but for the fact that he ordered the GPS ankle bracelet, GZ would have fled.

            So what we had after the first bond hearing was money in three different accounts, a safe deposit box, and ShelLIE’s pocket. The reason I say her pocket is because she turned money over to O’Mara in portions which indicates it was not withdrawn from the safe deposit box in one lump sum.

            We know or have good reason to know that prosecutors talked with O’Mara about that fund, and that is why O’Mara took it over — not to take control of it from GZ (because his bond had not been revoked then), but to make sure he would be paid. That is when O’Mara said that he had set-aside $27,000 for GZ’s living expenses.

            That was the first bond and O’Mara did not hire the security firm until the bond do-over. Because of security that was overreaching, and investigations in vain, GZ more than doubled his “living expenses.”

          • blushedbrown says:

            She has to be cunning look at who she is married to. LOL
            HA! But seriously, I agree with you. The thing with the “fund” could be its own mini series movie. O’mara taking control of the fund in the beginning, IMO was to make sure he got paid and to issue control of his client. Too bad for O’mara that gz is not your typical client. He reasserted his control and took the “fund control” back. O’mara is in deep doo-doo. I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop for gz to let him go.

          • Xena says:


            O’mara is in deep doo-doo. I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop for gz to let him go.

            It would not surprise me if GZ, Papa Zim, and Junior, were contacting attorneys across the nation seeking one to replace O’Mara. Even a public defender cannot be appointed unless GZ is declared indigent. That can’t happen as long as the defense fund exists. GZ is in deep ca-ca too.

          • blushedbrown says:


            I agree the phone lines are burning up. I think GZ is waiting to see how the attorneys perform on Feb 5th. I think that will tip the scales in his head that its time for a more agressive attorney who will do anything to win. The only one who comes to mind is Baez, but he is out of that running. So, maybe we should check the other possible attorneys (who are ruthless) in Florida and Virgina.

          • Xena says:


            So, maybe we should check the other possible attorneys (who are ruthless) in Florida and Virgina.

            Haha!! GZ would be looking beyond that, however, Although he wants an attorney as his surrogate to argue domestic violence type arguments in a murder trial, he also wants an attorney who will financially support him, and work pro bono while helping him fund raise.

          • blushedbrown says:


            Damn, you’re right.

    • racerrodig says:

      That’s beyond desperate. They most assuredly will call him but he’ll say something to the effect I could hear the sound of wind and heavy breathing. He will also say it sure didn’t sound like he stopped and I have no idea what he was doing, not having long range vision (as opposed to Taaffe’s “short term vision”) but I’d say he just kept going, judging by the position of Trayvon’s body and all.

      Sean won’t help Fogen at all and being a prosecution witness, he’ll be prepped.

      • Chocolate Diva says:

        Annette Elaine Kelly said on the debate page that the TM supporters better be prepare its a lot of stuff about Trayvon that we not going to like.

        • racerrodig says:

          They can say whatever they want but so far then only thing that we don’t like about Trayvon is the fact he was murdered. Everything the Zidiots have stated is either an outright lie and / or totally irrelevant.

        • Xena says:

          @Chocolate Diva.

          …a lot of stuff about Trayvon that we not going to like.

          It’s nothing more than an emotional blackmail scare tactic. Trayvon is not on trial. GZ is. The person you named is ignorant of trial procedure. O’Mara and West can only produce witnesses to testify that Trayvon had propensity to violence, if they can find such witnesses. In the event they do, that opens the door for GZ’s character and actions to be presented by the prosecution.

          GZ has a violent history that has already been reported, and I suspect that the State will find that driver who GZ confronted; his landlord who he called the police on; the server at his non-graduation party that he called the police on; and maybe even the bankruptcy trustee that issued GZ the check for $18,000 that GZ cashed and spent without telling his attorney.

          If O’Mara and West want the jury to know that GZ is violent, dishonest, and a thief, who failed to listen to the dispatcher, stalked, confronted and killed an unarmed 17 yr old 11th grader, then let them go there

      • Jun says:

        Well it is expected that there will be things stated by the defense and defendant that will be rather immoral and has no honor, but, it is what it is

        We are talking about an adult who targeted, stalked, harassed, terrorized, pursued, chased, confronted, threatened, attacked, and then killed an unarmed teenager who was trying to go home and get away from the defendant

        This is the same defendant with his cult substantiating lies as truths and using racism and threats but it has been rather futile up to the present, because like has been said, it is either outright lies or irrelevant information

        Annette Kelly is a dumb bucktoothed cross eyed Inbred Canadian chickenhead, and her opinion does not mean much to me, so whatever she says is rather useless and has been proven to be useless

        There’s nothing there that proves the defendant acted in self defense, in whatever twitter, facebook, or school records, as all those things only conclusively prove what happened way before anything happened on the night of the murder

        But I will put it in simple terms

        Let us say Suspect A tracks down a drug dealer, shoots and kills the drug dealer, and then steals drugs and money… the drug dealer is not a good moral person, but it does not mean what happened is not outright murder, for example

        So whatever they want to lie about Trayvon, the victim’s history, or what happened that night, it still does not prove it was an act of self defense, because it is irrelevant and proves nothing

        So if the defense wants to act even more depraved even after taking an innocent young boy’s life for walking home with Skittles, it is on them to lose the judge and the jury during the trial, so it does not bother me

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Good comments, jun and Xena!

      • seallison says:

        Annette Kelly is a dumb bucktoothed cross eyed Inbred Canadian chickenhead, and her opinion does not mean much to me, so whatever she says is rather useless and has been proven to be useless.

        Jun – what if you were a dumb
        -what if you were buck-toothed
        -what if you were cross-eyed, etc.

        Please, differing opinions and argument is one thing. But, what you are saying with this comment is something I would expect to hear on other sites. That is why I read here and not there.

        I really, really DO take offence to this comment. You live in Canada. I am not sure you are Canadian because you have not said.

        I am Canadian and I am ashamed that you would make comment about being an inbred Canadian as well. Do Canadians not measure up in your mind.

        I read and read on this site. I will comment at times. But, I do not know how many times I have had to shake my head at some of your comments.

        You may not like what I am saying here but I hope you will notice a difference. Someone not long ago said that I should accept your comments because you are young. Age has nothing to do with it. My children or grandchildren would never talk or write as you do at times.

        Stop. Grow up.

      • Jun says:

        To be real

        I’d be more shocked if the Fogenhatters cult stopped attacking the victim, lying, scheming, threatening, intimidating the witnesses and the victim, including Omara and West and Fogenhats the 3rd ceasing and desisting such sanction and action

        I am expecting them to try and drag a victim through the mud, after all, they are predators, liars, schemers, manipulators, racists

        Which is why the state has all that dirt on Fogenhats’ history dug up, because, I am sure since the FBI are involved, they have a psychological profile on Fogenhats, and they saw it coming, that Fogenhats and his cult will attack a victim even after death

        So Fogenhats can either simply be the person who targeted, stalked, terrorized, confronted, threatened, attacked, and killed the victim


        Fogenhats can be known as the person who molested his cousin for over a decade, scammed a lot of people, instigated massive amounts of violence and intimidation on others, use “SWATTING” criminal techniques by calling false information on his victims, is a liar, a perjurer, and also committed the murder

        Totally their choice if they want to go there, because, only the defense can open the door for that, and their character evidence will more than show that the defendant is capable of committing the crime due to character history, and, they have evidence he did so, and the defendant is the one with the violent characteristic

      • Jun says:

        Okay Grahase


        I should call Annette Kelly

        A very beautiful person who happens to slander and attack the victim, Trayvon Martin, and even though I feel she is a dumb inbred bucktoothed cross eyed fool

        Would that make you more happy?

        You are asking me to describe a person who by my accounts and observation, is an evil individual, considering her actions and support and her repeated donations to Fogenhats

      • gblock says:

        Jun, it is certainly appropriate to call what she says evil, maybe to call her evil. It is inappropriate to call her a lot of things that are untrue or irrelevant (especially to insult someone based on physical traits that are unflattering but may be shared by a lot of perfectly nice people).

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I totally agree with both of you, seallison and gblock.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        seallison, I regret that I did not catch those words that jun used.
        I have so much respect for you that you know when to stand up and call people out on their words.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Oh, and seallison, you are the type of caring person that I would appreciate guidance from if I ever say anything that you feel you need to correct or challenge.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        It is a really terrible thing to call Annette Kelly all those things, especially since who ever heard of a cross-eyed, buck-toothed chicken? And isn’t it unjust and wrong to compare such a chicken, an innocent chicken, to her?

        All I care is that this murderer who exhibited his enjoyment of the deed that very night and again the next day on video be sequestered from the rest of society for the good of the rest of us. May he pull his accomplices down with him.

      • seallison says:

        Thank you, gblock and YAHTC. I am going to quote Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. to add to my comment to Jun. I am going to add it because there are some who obviously do not recognize how wrong it is to criticise a persons physical attributes, etc. as per Jun who still does not recognize how wrong he is:

        Dr. MLK Jr.

        I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character.

        Allow me to add as per Juns comment: not just colour of skin, but other physical attributes when used to demean, to characterize someone as an inbred Canadian, etc..

        I will not support the name-calling. But, I will and I do support judging a person by the content of their character.

        If I need the name calling, I will make comment on other sites who will attack me in the same manner as Jun – without sensitivity and respect.

      • seallison says:

        Jun – your response to me is troubling. I will make one more comment and then, I will let it go.

        Jun – Had you said that in my house, it would have been the last time you would be in my house.

        Jun – Had you said that in my workplace, you would have been suspended without pay until you completed the Human Rights Commissions course: Diversity, Sensitivity, and Respect. If, after you returned to the workplace and you continued on that same road, you would be released.

        THIS is how seriously Canada treats even words against others – whether you like it or not. Judge someone by the content of their character, Jun. Leave the rest of the crap out.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Annette Elaine Kelly is a Canadian Fogen supporter who engages in quite a bit of wishful thinking.

      • Puck says:

        As a Canadian, I resent that “Canadian” was used pejoratively. If you want to see inbreeding, look south, not north. *snap*

    • Xena says:

      Chocolate Diva, like all their other theories, the Zidiots believe that people are clairvoyant. What Sean can testify to is that the sounds he heard that prompted him to ask if GZ was following, continued after GZ said “Okay.” Sean then tried re-directing GZ’s attention by asking his name.

      • Jun says:

        He also attempted to get Fogenhats to go back to his car, because the back gate is in the opposite direction of the car, and, that was where Trayvon was running toward, by asking him to meet at the mail shed to which Fogenhats denied that request

        • Xena says:


          He also attempted to get Fogenhats to go back to his car, because the back gate is in the opposite direction of the car, and, that was where Trayvon was running toward, by asking him to meet at the mail shed to which Fogenhats denied that request


    • Kelly Payne says:

      They always say he stopped following because he said ok. Obviously he kept following..

      • Xena says:

        The same sounds of the wind continued to be heard on the NEN call until about 7:12:11 just before GZ says “He ran.” Then, GZ starts banging on his flashlight to get it to work. Then, he tells on himself, that he is still looking for Trayvon because when asked for his address, GZ says he doesn’t want to give it all out BECAUSE “I don’t know where this kid is.”

        Those two statements contradict each other. If “He ran” is to be understood that GZ lost visual and was returning to his truck, then “I don’t know where this kid is” clearly conveys that GZ is not on the same path that he took when first leaving his truck.

        • He “SKIPPED” damnit…..get ur facts straight :)-

          • racerrodig says:

            Lets get it correct as he meant it as…….”…..shit…..he (ran) (skipped) (crawled) (boogied) (hopped) (brake danced) (shimmied)
            (back pedaled) (walked on his hands) ” The trial is in 5 months, take your pick…….but its “…shit, he……” don’t forget that !!

      • racerrodig says:

        Fogen has the IQ of about ohhh, room tempature. My son is very intelligent and when I say “..can you take out the trash….” the response is always “OK” Not thatb he has a disrespectful bone inhis body, but very often I wind up an hour later, trash bag in hand, heading from the kitchen to the trash bin outside my shop.

        OK…..right Zidiots, that’s real proof of compliance….

  23. Elizabeth De Grave says:

    When I got to right about here…
    He yelled.

    at 0.11 in the animated cartoon above.

  24. Follow….

    Good hike 🙂

    • kindheart101 says:


      I’m about ready to call it a night, but I wanted to let you know it’s good to see you. 🙂

      That was one Hell of hike……..?????? Huh?

      • “bout 6 miles…..down a canyon full of abandoned Beaver ponds..

        Now I need to get to work sellin’ stamps.

        I’ll be checkin’ in here and there.

        Ya’ll take care 🙂

        And Kindheart….2 more of Services poems you might like are

        “The Lone Trail” & ” The Lure of Little Voices”

      • kindheart101 says:


        I will read them with pleasure. Thank you.

  25. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I just have to post this tonight. 🙂

  26. Xena says:

    Bank robbers do give money away. LOL!

  27. Malisha says:

    Fogen has a hollowpoint voice.

  28. Two sides to a story says:

    Someone still using your photo and handle masoninblue, Mr. L. I tagged it, for what it’s worth.

    • Xena says:

      It’s because the Zidiots see this blog as a threat. I wonder if it’s the same person who has made it publicly known that he intends to “destroy” the professor — the same person who was brought to court on violating rules of the Dept. of Environmental Protection in Florida. This is posted for his benefit. He should immediately cease and desist.

  29. Xena says:

    For the new people and others who have not yet seen this.

  30. seallison says:

    Go to Axiom Amnesia and click on emts – the bloody arms are there in a statement.I think it is the same person who testified at the first hearing. Cant think of it at the top of my head.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      Thank you…I found the audio statements there and noticed that there was a comment under the audio from 7 months ago and this Sally had noted exactly what I did too about Fogen not mentioning he was on Adderall for ADHD. I haven’t read any comments on this though, so it was new to me. What do you guys think of it? Think he wasn’t taking his anymore Adderall and that is why he didn’t mention it?

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Funny, how these EMT’s have different accounts for their treatment of Fogen. Was it peroxide or sterile water, was Fogen sitiing all the way in the back of the cop car or was he sitting with his legs out, was he quiet or was he complaining of pain, one laceration-two lacerations..O’Rourke was obviously not paying attention at all.

  31. Big Willi aka Wilhelmina says:

    Analyzing Trayvon’s tear.

    Is Trayvon’s photographed single tear proof that he was the person screaming/crying for help?

    Wikipedia defines crying as : “Crying is shedding tears as a response to an emotional state in humans. One need only shed a single tear to be crying.

    Recent psychological theories of crying emphasize the relationship of crying to the experience of perceived helplessness. From this perspective, an underlying experience of helplessness can usually explain why people cry. For example, a person may cry after receiving surprisingly happy news, ostensibly because the person feels powerless or unable to influence what is happening.”

    I’ve always believed Trayvon’s photographed tear was his response to his emotional state of helplessness and feelings of being powerless and unable to alter what was happening to him.

    Professor, will Trayvon’s tear be considered direct evidence of his emotion and psychological state? If so, how much impact will this have on the case?

    • i would think the GZ screaming BS is for the public/media only.
      if omar had the nerve to actually insist gz was the one screaming, i would love for the SA to read that definition you just posted to the jury.

      i think if they said that to the jury they’d basically throw the case. that’s a shock to system to consider the grown man with a firearm is the one crying and screaming for help and not the 17 year old child.

  32. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    I’ve been reading the evidence docs again looking for all EMT and SFD reports to find where they said ogen had blood on his arms…haven’t found anything yet, but did notice something.

    The report in DOC 1 5/15/12 Sanford Fire Dept. report has past medical history of IBS, Allergies: PCN and medications: Librax and Temazepam. Obviously, the got this info from Fogen, so why is his ADHD and his Adderall not mentioned?? Why did he omit this information to medical techs taking care of him? Surely, he didn’t forget.

    • Chocolate Diva says:

      Paramedic 1 said he had blood all over his arms and hands he said he clean it off, but he mention GZ was handcuff the whole time from the back. So how can you clean blood covered arms with him wearing a long-sleeve jacket and he was handcuff.


      Temazepam is a mood altering drug…..nothing to do with IBS

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Adderall is an addictive amphetamine and lots of people without ADHD take it, thinking it will make them smarter, lose weight, less depressed or perform better, and then *poof* they’re addicts. If Foge didn’t have a psychiatric physician monitoring him regularly, issuing bona fide prescriptions for the diagnosed condition of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, we gotta wonder if he wasn’t just a speed-freak. And add the name of the hapless physician who issued Fogen an Adderall prescription to the list of people whose professional or personal lives have been ruined by this self-entitled murderer.

  33. colin black says:

    What is the color of the black box on a commercial airliner?

    Flueresent orange or yellow but never black.
    They are brightly coloured to be visable and are never black.

    • kindheart101 says:

      @colin black. Excellent!

      Now, How would you answer question 11?

      • doremus35 says:

        Your question #11 reminds me of the amphibian based, quasi Neo-Darwinian question: If a frog had wings, would it bump its ass when it hopped?

        What’s the point you might ask?

        Well, yes, guns in the hands of murderous killers often tend to kill people, sine qua non.

        But, why are so many good, ‘god’ fearing American people armed to the teeth?

        Ans: They are much more fearful of the actions of their fellow Americans then they are of any other national identity

        Oh, and what about terrorists and the need to protect ourselves from them?

        Ans: We have met the enemy and they are us!

        I will now return you to your regularly scheduled dialogue.

      • kindheart101 says:


        “If a frog had wings, would it bump its ass when it hopped?”

        I can’t stop laughing! LOL……….I got a visual on that one.

      • seallison says:

        Why do you park in a driveway and drive in a parkway.
        What do you call a fly with no wings.

  34. kindheart101 says:

    I have 10 questions for you.

    1. How long did the Hundred Years’ war last?
    2. Which country makes Panama hats?
    3. From which animal do we get cat gut?
    4. In which month do Russians celebrate the October Revolution?
    5. What is a Camel hair brush made of?
    6. The Canary Islands, in the Pacific, are named after which bird?
    7. What was the first name of King George?
    8. What color is a purple finch?
    9. Where are Chinese gooseberries from?
    10. What is the color of the black box on a commercial airliner?

    Simple huh?

    Just like question #11.

    11. If Z didn’t get out of his car, and follow with a loaded gun, would Trayvon be dead?

    Justice for Trayvon!

    • doremus35 says:

      1. Ans: 110 years 1337 to 1453 between the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of France and
      2. Ecuador
      3. Sheep
      4. Ans: November It took place with an armed insurrection in Petrograd traditionally dated to 25 October 1917 Old Style Julian Calendar (O.S.), which corresponds with 7 November 1917 New Style (N.S.) Gregorian Calendar.
      5. One for you
      6. Contrary to its name, the islands have little to nothing to do with the canary bird. Rather, it is the bird that is named after the islands, not the converse
      7. George III (George William Frederick; 4 June 1738, George VI (Albert Frederick Arthur George; 14 December 1895 – 6 February 1952)
      8. Adults have a short forked brown tail and brown wings and are about 15 cm (4 in) in length and weigh 34 g (1.2 oz).[5] Adult males are raspberry red on the head, breast, back and rump; their back is streaked. Adult females have light brown upperparts and white underparts with dark brown streaks throughout; they have a white line on the face above the eye.
      9. As the local popularity of this fruit increased, New Zealanders discarded the old Chinese name for the fruit (mí hóu táo[a]) in favor of the name Chinese Gooseberry.
      10. And if it’s all the same to you, I prefer to use the non-racial sobriquet of ‘African-American rectangle.


      But next time you will lose points for incorrect answers.

    • kindheart101 says:

      Z’s family and friends would like to twist the facts, and make us believe there could be multiple answers, when in fact, there is only one.

      These are the answers to the questions.

      1. 116 years
      2. Ecuador
      3. Sheep and Horses
      4. November
      5. Squirrel fur
      6. Dogs
      7. Albert
      8. Crimson
      9. New Zealand

      This was sent to me by a friend, who pointed out to me. (No matter what one may think, or how simple an answer may seem, there is always an origin, a start, a beginning. To let silly, misleading questions fool you, will only lead to a wrong conclusion.

      The defense can not twist, or take away from the initial fact.

      Had Z not left his vehicle, and followed Trayvon, with a loaded gun, (after being told, “we don’t need you to do that”) Trayvon would be alive. The police would have stopped him, and questioned him, to find out he was heading to the apartment, within the complex, where he was staying with his father.

      • Malisha says:

        You can guess with all probability that had Fogen not gotten out of his schtruck and followed Trayvon Martin with a loaded gun, Trayvon Martin would be alive now. But you don’t know that for sure. Any of the following might have happened:

        1. Taaffe could have noticed that Trayvon was already home and stupid Fogen had not yet apprehended him, and Taaffe could have shot him in frustration and then claimed he was saving Fogen’s life by doing so. OR

        2. Tim Smith could have arrived upon the scene whereupon Fogen could have screamed, “He ran back there after shooting me!” whereupon Tim Smith could have shot Trayvon Martin in the back while yelling, “Freeze!” OR

        3. An ostrich could have fallen out of a helicopter and crushed Trayvon Martin just as he was about to enter Brandi Green’s home to watch the game. OR

        4. Some other non-racist uncriminal conduct of some other person, object or spiritual force might have caused Trayvon Martin to, as O’Mara so demurely puts it, “pass.”

        But instead, Fogen got out of his vehicle with a loaded gun and killed Trayvon Martin. So Fogen was the gunman. Fogen was then the suspect. Trayvon Martin was never the suspect. Fogen is now the defendant.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Defendant and soon to be convict. MOM’s going crazy, he can’t get any more discovery because from here on it’s “work product time”. The SP is analyzing the evidence and the rebuttal material is piling sky high and MOM can get his grubby little claws on none of it. lol

          All he can do, to make it appear that he has plenty of work to do, is pound on the table and scream inanities and hope no one notices they don’t make sense. Their bandwagon has ground to a screeching halt, there’s no media coming around to seek interviews, no one seems to care, even their emails are not being answered by their own crew. GZ’s world is shrinking rapidly. This case has gone from being an up lifting balloon for them, all the way down to become a millstone around their collective necks.

          • racerrodig says:

            And 5 people getting shot at gun shows on Gun Appreciation Day really helped out…….yep, nothing like more nit wits and accidental discharges on “Gun Appreciation Day”

            Does anyone here think a single Zidiot will appreciate what that means ??

      • kindheart101 says:


        If it was just Z, or there were others present, which I wondered about early on also, in my mind, it still leads back to Z openly following, determining Trayvon to be a “Suspect”, and ultimately murdering him.

        My heart just breaks when I think about the fear Trayvon felt. Like I have said before, my youngest son, who was 21 at the time, in 1999, was followed, beaten, had a gun held to his head, and robbed. He has never been the same Malisha.

        Though none of us will ever know everything that happened that night, we do know this. Z called NEN. Z reported what he thought was suspicious behavior. At that point, Z had accomplished what was required of the Neighborhood Watch Program. Z was told the Police were on the way. There was NO NEED to follow Trayvon. (Which he admitted to doing)

        Personally? I would sooner believe “An ostrich could have fallen out of a helicopter and crushed Trayvon Martin just as he was about to enter Brandi Green’s home to watch the game”, than believe Z had anything in mind other than to act like a wannabe cop, empowered by being armed, (which he never disclosed to NEN) and restrain (one of the “ASSHOLES” as he put it, that always get away!).

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I’m not so sure!!! I want to know where all that blood he was wearing came from, since it didn’t come from any attack he suffered. That says that the blood is a contrivance, designed to back up his story of being attacked. But, then the question becomes, when did he arrange this contrivance? Before he knew that he’d need to show that he was attacked? Or, did he contrive it, after he realized he now needed some evidence of an attack?

          Question, where does someone, planning a trip to go shopping, get animal blood on themselves on a rainy Sunday night?

          Did GZ leave his truck carrying a container of animal blood? Did some witness come out and give him a container of blood? Or did they help him pour the blood on him?

          I’ll tell you one thing that’s certain. If someone helped GZ out at the scene or before, they’d definitely tell some very strong lies in GZ’s favor, in an effort to end the investigation if they could. That is something they could not fail to do!

      • Jun says:

        I think the actual major issue with Fogen is that he lacks self control, when it comes to harassment, manipulation, scheming & lying, and using and instigating violence upon others, and Fogenhats regularly jumps to conclusions for no reason

        Fogenhats is psychologically a psychopath and a sociopath

        Telling Fogenhats he should have stayed in his truck, or identify himself, are what reasonable normal people of society would recommend in the situation, but Fogenhats is not a normal person

        The actual main focus of the problem is Fogenhats just should learn self control, and using reasonable and empathetic ways to deal with others, however, Fogenhats is a very selfish person and does not think about how others would feel in situations he has caused

        If Fogenhats had not gone out with the intent to target and do the victim harm, none of this would have happened as Fogenhats would have automatically not gotten out of his car, and put out his “Swatting” police call upon Trayvon, and would have just left the kid alone… IMO the break ins (which happen to be falsified by Fogenhats) was just a scheme by him to do what he did… Fogenhats by his action was intent on doing harm to Trayvon… it was obviously his intent, even by legal means, since he just went after the victim and confronted then threatened then attacked and killed the victim while the victim pleaded for mercy and help

        His lies and schemes are also an aftermath of his personality and probably what the FBI has on his profile… Fogenhats acts without thinking and self control, hence his lies not making sense to normal folks or people without agendas

        Like minded individuals draw to each other, hence his cult of followers, are much the same, as they just act without thinking the whole thing through, and simply lash out at people… look at their doxing of people whom they perceived to be Deedee & Trayvon with their not well plotted out lies and schemes… People like Conservative Tinfoil Treefort are easily seen through by most people

      • kindheart101 says:

        @Lonnie Starr.

        Good morning Lonnie. I think it’s morning? I’m on my third cup of coffee, one eye open, and have been up almost all night. My neighbor had to leave for a few days, for a family emergency, so I told them I would keep their cat for them so she didn’t have to be kenneled. (OUCH!) I have three cats of my own…can we say “Cat Wars!” LOL The end result was: 1 locked in the bathroom, 1 locked in the kitchen, my oldest cat on her bed in the living room, and the other locked in the bedroom with me.

        I read your reply, and wonder if I missed something in the DNA results? As I recall, there was only one area that was noted as being “Possible non-human DNA.” I didn’t interpret that to mean it would have been like a container of animal blood in volume, (like has been done by activists at a fur show) had been thrown, or was present on Z’s clothing.

        One thing is for sure. Z has a sick, lying, deceitful, conniving, manipulative, animal like personality! Perhaps his DNA should be tested? (If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck…………..)

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yes, I understand that there was very little animal blood found. But, there is a real problem with GZ being found bloody at all, since he wasn’t attacked and bloodied by TM. Meaning that he should not be wearing any blood at all. Or, he needs to come clean about where he really got wounded, and forget about feeding us this ridiculous self serving story about a fight with a non-violent teen.

          It is because this blood has to come from some where, and that is other than any fight with Trayvon, we can speculate about where else it might have come from. Think about it, if that blood on the back of GZ’s head was animal blood, who would have tested for it?
          The answer is, they would not have tested it because they’d assume it’s obviously GZ’s blood, when in fact it could have just been an illusion.

          Did anyone notice that after we started discussing the blood trails on the back of GZ’s head, the pictures with the rivulets disappeared from the net where they had once been profligate. LOL

          • kindheart101 says:


            I love your questions, statements and posts in general. You always make me think.

            I will be gone for a couple of days, but I will surely read your posts when I return. 🙂

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            We’ll be waiting. Hurry back.

            Like I said before, we have the luxury to speculate to our hearts content over questions the evidence presents, the SP on the other hand doesn’t have quite so much freedom, because they have a case to put on and a deadline. In fact several deadlines.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I support the premise that the clumsy oaf fell into a bush, with the photos of his face and head taken in the station. These photos not only show scratches that actually bled, but also myriad parallel non-bleeding scratches on his face and scalp. No claw or fingernail or wielded weapon made those.

        And I think his bloody nose started when his gun bumped his nose on kickback, or he’d have dripped blood everywhere.

  35. colin black says:

    ..racerrodig says:

    January 20, 2013 at 12:01 am

    “don’t we all have silly little things slip our mind when we’re chasing innocent kids on the way to target?”

    Fortunately all of us have common sense and
    1) Don’t carry guns
    2) Don’t profile others
    3) Mind our own business, yet watch “out” for others
    4) Have decorum
    5) Don’t follow others in an effort to provoke or harass them
    6) Wouldn’t even consider having racist “friends” like Taaffe
    7) Don’t drive behind someone who is on foot with the lights off in
    the dark
    8) Call the police to set someone up
    9) Remember to actually bring a “form of payment” when shopping
    10) Blame everyone else for our problems

    What did I miss ????

    Assume somethings up with him on drugs becuase of his demeanour talking to himself probably useing his hands to gestulate.
    Couldnt possably be useing a hands free device to talk to his sweet heart.
    He on drugs or summit.
    Wouldnt be scared wittless from the confines of a locked vechicle as the Sushpect circled our safe locked truck.
    And yet seconds later our fear evaporates as we exit saftey of locked vechicle.
    And head pell mell after the scarey dude into the dark an unknown between the back of homes.
    To dark secluded unlit cut throughs.
    But maybe thats just me.

  36. doremus35 says:

    “Most of the bank robbers I knew or knew about were modern day Robin Hoods who stole money from the big banks and gave away much of it to people in need…”

    I hate to rain on your parade, but in regards to nominating Mr. Hood for sainthood on any day that ends in ‘y’, you might want to consider the following facts:

    First, Robin was Jewish-I though everyone knew that, oh well. His given name was Moshe Robinowski, but it was changed at Ellis Island-but then again whose name survived intact at Ellis? Of course, this does elicit questions of how your family survived the reincarnation at Ellis. I would run a line in Vegas that your family’s name in the old country was Smith and the guy at Ellis was having a crappy day and just had his shoes resoled and just decided to stick your clan with the moniker of leatherman.

    Second, if you just happen to have within arm’s reach or just plain handy (as in the loo) an 1841 or 1852 edition of Charles Mackay’s (LLD mind you) amazing volume with the improbable title of ‘Extraordinary Popular Delusions And The Madness of Crowds’ you would see this comment on page 633 about your Herr Hood:

    “The few virtues he had, which would have ensured him no praise if he had been an honest man, have been blazoned forth by popular renown during seven successive centuries, and will never be forgotten while the English tongue endures.”

    And the point of all of this is simply a question, and a rather intriguing question at that:

    Does renown of any strip wash away the bad stuff and only highlight what might be considered acceptable in an average lemming?

    And as to your next lame excuse for being late with an article, I could much better accept that an African Grey parrot ate your computer than an ice storm in Tennessee while you were on your sissy motorcycle-real men ride bicycles! Next thing you will try to foist off on your trusting, unsuspecting audience is that you ride a motorcycle with a beautiful woman hanging on the back seat with her arms lovingly entwined around your waist yelling to the heavens, “Ride ‘em big Fred, ride ‘em!”.

    Namaste my dear friend.

  37. Chocolate Diva says:

    Have anybody heard anything of Crump tampering with Tracy T-Mobile bill. That’s all the GZ Supporters is talking about. They saying he cut and paste something on there. I’m like C’mon now Crump wouldn’t jeopardized his job to do some mess like that.

    • kindheart101 says:

      @Chocolate Diva.

      They are scum…..(sorry, that was quite mean). They will say, or do anything, twist facts, hack accounts, or flat out lie, because that’s all they have.

      Justice for Trayvon.

    • Rachael says:

      Oh they say all kinds of shyt. They say that DD doesn’t even exist and he made her up and all kinds of nonsense.

  38. colin black says:

    One of the bast Jammers ever.

    Jamacia ?

    No sir she was a perfactly willing partner.

  39. colin black says:

    January 19, 2013 at 8:14 pm

    When you say “my jam” do you mean you’re playing?

    What are you playing? (Loved it, by the way, thank you.)


    To Jam amongst musicians is useally an off the cuff jamming session.
    Just playing an inprov at times.

    In Scotland Jam is either preserves like rassberry Jams ect.
    I bbeleive in America you refer to preseves jam ect as Jellys.
    Anyway Jammy has a more common use in Scotland an even throughout the UK .
    As many Scots words have been adopted World wide .
    Wee forinstance to idicate small or wee hours to indicate early.
    Jammy in Scots means very very lucky.
    So I hope that foggen is anything but jammy.

  40. Judy75201 says:

    Guns are heavy. It would be hard to reach for the wrong pocket.

  41. bettykath says:

    With “bank robbers” as the subject I thought this was about the robber bankers, not the robbers of banks. LOL Your robbers of banks seem to have had bigger hearts than our current day robber bankers. The robber bankers really need to be charged with fraud and theft and put in jail. Their crimes are magnitudes more destructive than those of the robbers of banks.

  42. colin black says:


    We have all become aware since the global econamy crashed.
    Due in truth to irrisponceable Bankers . Morgatge Lenders an other financeial institutions.

    Thease bastards have been robbing us wholesale for ever.
    And to compound there criminality not only have they robbed us blind.
    They have the audacity to ask us the very people they robbed.
    To bail them out of the finacieial abbiss they dragged us into.
    Thus they have condemmed children not even conceived yet to be born in to debt.

    B T W These friggin assholes are still paying themselfs multi million pound bonuses on top of there sky high salarys.An genourous retirment pennsions.

    They are the true bank robbers an are far from blessed..

    • seallison says:

      There was a $50,000.00 reward for the capture of Scurlock by the banks. The family that called 911 when they discovered the bandit in a trailer in their back yard had to actually fight for that reward. The banks offered to give them $10,000.00.

      Why should these people HAVE to have fought for a reward posted — because it was posted by the banks. Your comment is quite right in my mind.

    • racerrodig says:

      Don’t know if you say this before but we have a huge lawsuit against one of them as they took over the servicing of our mortgage and just willy nilly converted it into an Interest Only ARM. Just because they felt like it……We won the 1st time around but they wasted no time in violating the court order and agreement, so we’re back at it.

      • Racer, i just wanna point out that i just love your connections! and i look forward to all those updates!

        i believe your irs guys completely. i can’t begin understand that mumbo jumbo tax laws law stuff posted above,
        but your explanation makes sense to me!

        thank you for letting us know!

        • racerrodig says:

          My IRS guys have no problem telling me like it is as far as Fogen’s tax issues…and some other details that they can confirm. The best is the laughs when the general evidence is discussed and how the Zidiots and O’ Mara just brush it off, yet think some off the wall thing gets him acquitted.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The big inside job, Colin.

  43. whonoze says:

    “5 People Shot At 3 Different Gun Shows On Gun Appreciation Day”

    I wonder if GZ has ever seen “Zardoz.”

  44. Aunt Bea says:

    As I go back and read thru documents, I can’t help but notice “oddities”.
    My latest is, why is there no date indicating when GZ’s clothing and such were gathered by the SPD? We have the date GZ’s hands were swabbed for GSR, 26 Feb. BTW, those swabbings did come back positive.

    Why no date for the seizure of his clothing?

    The trouble with this case is that, as Malisha would say, the “fix” was in for many days and many reports. Everything is tainted that was gathered/stated in the early days of the “investigation”.

    I thought TM’s body should have been exhumed long ago. I trust no one’s interpretation of facts.

    GZ may very well walk……but he will be paranoid forever……

    Glad you didn’t freeze, Professor. You are one hard-core biker….

    • Jun says:

      They have the pics and the dates for the testing of his clothing and the chain of custody forms

      • Aunt Bea says:

        I am sure someone knows these things. The pics I have seen. Were they “stamped” with time/date. I don’t recall.
        The testing was done well into March.
        Point was, why not on that long list of evidence? The stuff taken and IDed. No date there. We can “assume” they were seized on the 26th, but why not just stick it in there? It is obviously, by sight, missing. Nothing that was on GZ’s body has a date obtained, save the GSR hand swabbings. Line item after line item….no date. Then we start the date insertion again for the remaining items.

      • seallison says:

        Where would these items be in the discovery material, please, Jun. Aunt Bea appears to have been scanning the documents. Yet, dates are missing.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I believe there’s something in one of the officers narratives about the clothing being collected. His wife was asked to bring clothes to the station because his clothes were going to be collected. I didn’t read the actual report, but that’s what I’ve heard mentioned so far on the blogs.

      • seallison says:

        Aunt Bea – I find it very hard to understand that there is nothing in the documents about GZs and Trayvons pants testing results.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Good catch, Aunt Bea. I agree with you that the SPECIFIC time and date as to when George’s clothing was gathered for evidence SHOULD have been recorded.

        The only reference that I have found is in Officer Joseph Santiago’s report from March 2, 2012.

        Here is what Santiago reports after arriving at the SPD headquarters from his time at the scene:

        “I responded to the Sanford Police Department upon my arrival I asked Zimmerman’s wife to get another set of clothing because the investigators were going to seize her husband’s clothes. Zimmerman was released a short time later.”

      • Jun says:

        The dates are in the first discovery for when they took the items. I forgot which discovery but there is chain of custody forms for Fogenhats items

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        DMS 13 through 19 = George’s clothing

        From chain of custody record–

        DMS 1 through 21 collected on 02/26/12 at the time 22:30

      • Aunt Bea says:

        Thanks for the reference, yahtc. Guess they didn’t have that custody record handy when the report was typed.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      GZ could walk if this case was a toss up. But that train left the station long ago, when GZ began giving different versions of the story that conflicted with one another and the little evidence that remains, but that can’t be disputed. Like the location of the body cannot be disputed. GZ’s recounting of the events that led to the shooting, do not explain what happened at the location where the body is found.

      His narrative of being beaten, takes place, quite some distance away from where the shooting occurs, with no explanation for how the distance is covered while the deadly threat is maintained.

      GZ also admits that he entranced the deadly situation voluntarily and without the advice or consent of the very people who monitor and handle NW activities. He is the one who brought the firearm to the situation, he is the one whose appearance there — after having caused the victim reason to be seriously concerned for his own safety — should have been explained by identifying himself. Since his claimed assailant was not a criminally intended person, with no history or proclivity to engage in any crime, it is indisputable that by identifying himself, Trayvon’s concerns for his own safety would have been allayed.

      Meanwhile, GZ claims that he was rendered a bloody mess, by a life threatening attack by TM. Yet, TM has no dna or other trace on himself, that could confirm that he had engaged in any attack at all. But, after the medics claim to have cleaned blood from GZ’s arms, face, hands and head, we learn that GZ has no wounds that would require any professional attention. GZ refuses professional examination. Worse yet, animal blood is found on him!

      The SP will be entitled to claim that most of the blood on GZ was, in fact, animal blood, which explains why there was so much blood and so few small wounds. This aspect of the case has not been thoroughly examined because, there’s little need to rely on it. But, was there was a living cross-complainant, that matter might have received more attention. Still, it is yet another possible reason why, GZ wanted to avoid professional medical examination.

      Well, there’s always a possibility that some of that blood dried and flaked off onto his clothing which was taken in evidence. Perhaps that can be tested again, to see if it too is animal blood.

      • Aunt Bea says:

        GZ’s getting out of the truck, I could write off as “dumb a**”.
        Until I heard the NEN call. He put himself in danger. Totally unprepared, but for his gun.
        When he failed to ID himself or attempt to make peaceful contact, he lost me. Can’t see it as anything less than manslaughter. His tall tales have made it such that I want to FIND M1. I’ll settle for M2.

        Shame on me…..

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          No shame on you. He’s lying to conceal the fact that he killed without provocation! TM never attacked him, no matter how much blood he had on him, that did not come from anything TM did, because TM could not have touched GZ, without picking up trace from him.

          So, if TM never touched GZ, then what was GZ’s provocation for firing his weapon into TM’s body? Whatever it was, it wasn’t self defense! Anything else, any other reason for it, makes it’ 1st degree murder!

          Worse there little to no real explanation for all the blood GZ is claimed to have been covered with, so the fact that some animal blood is detected on the few samples that were tested, may be an indication that most of it was animal blood. That would certainly explain the EMT’s not finding injuries severe enough to cause them concern that GZ was not going to the ER. Maybe they need to do some more test on those cloths they recovered.

          • racerrodig says:

            I love the line during one of his interviews where he said he had all this blood in my eyes. Huhhhhh ??

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Lonnie –

        Zimmerman’s jacket is “DM-19.”

        Stain “Z” (and ONLY stain “Z”) is noted this way:

        “limited DNA results; not interpretable; male present; possible non-human DNA present.”

        Let’s not exaggerate this as, ”covered in animal blood.”

        Could have picked up a pet.

        Could have dribbled a juicy rare hamburger on himself.

        Could be blood or other DNA from a supermarket packet.

        Could have swatted a mosquito.

        The jacket photocopies do not identify the stain “Z” with its location.

        Let’s not make this more than what it is: ONE stain with so little DNA that they can’t interpret it – but “possible non-human.”
        If he were covered in this blood, obviously there would be enough to test.
        There wasn’t.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I understand what you’re saying but… Don’t you find it just a tiny bit strange, that GZ has all this blood on him, but he has no proof that he’s even been assaulted? Obviously they didn’t test the blood on him, they simply assumed that it was his. Yet, there is a possibility that if they had tested it, they may have discovered that it too was animal blood. After all, he didn’t have the injuries commensurate with all that bleeding. Nor did he have any evidence of being attacked. If he fell or ran into something, he certainly hasn’t said that he did, he says that his injuries were both life threatening, and were developed a the hands of TM, which turn out to be pristine.

          So, unless we’re going to assume that all this blood, somehow magically appeared when needed. We need to know where it came from… Or, rather make that, we know it did not come from where he claims it did.

      • leander22 says:

        I am with PiranhaMom on this, Lonnie.

        Nor did he have any evidence of being attacked.

        No he does not. But unfortunately we do not have a witness how the fight started either.

        In any case. Are you suggesting George had this blood already smeared on this face when he spoke with Sean? If not, did he have something in his pocket that contained the animal blood? Were did he put it? Into the dog poop waste bins? Did he smear himself when he walked towards the T intersection after the shot, when he was witnessed to hold his head by Mary and Selma. Did the teacher report anything that would support such a claim?

        If you like this theory you should follow it all the way through.

        • Xena says:

          But unfortunately we do not have a witness how the fight started either

          Nothing unfortunate about it. Dooley had witnesses. The victim’s daughter was a witness for the defense and testified that Dooley turned his back and was walking away when her dad ran towards him and turned him around. The jury found Dooley guilty of manslaughter. The killing was avoidable. If not but for the fact that Dooley stopped washing his car, walked out of this garage with a loaded gun, and entered James’ space, there would not have been a physical confrontation.

          The same applies to GZ. If not but for the fact that he got out of his vehicle and followed Trayvon, the two would not have come into physical contact.

          That in fact, Dooley alleged that James tried taking his gun and he shot James because he believed if James got the gun that he would shoot him. The jury also decided that James had the right to take the gun since he saw Dooley as a threat. Keep in mind that James died from the gunshot wound to his heart. He was not there to tell his side of the story.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          We’ve been over this ground before. My theory is that George left home with these wounds and blood already prepared for display when needed, because he could not predict when he’d get the time to get these things done out at the scene.

          People have argued that he didn’t need a cohesive story because the fix was already in. But hey, if the fix was already in, then he didn’t need any blood either.

  45. SearchingMind says:

    O’Mara The Butler!

    I think that the moment O’Mara started performing domestic duties and playing the housekeeper for the Zimmerman household as explained in the AIS-lawsuit, he crossed a very important red line no self-respecting lawyer dare cross. By so doing, O’Mara compromised and maneuvered himself to the proverbial point of no return. For the first time in his life he was literarily catapulted to national- and world stage. O’Mara became – overnight – a world mega star. He was so excited like a kid who has just gotten his first bike and overwhelmed by his new found fame that he cannot afford to lose Zimmerman. This client, Zimmerman, must be kept at all cost. To achieve that goal, O’Mara – who is no Niccolò Machiavelli (1469-1527) – had to please Zimmerman and make him very comfortable by taking instructions from Zimmerman and respecting the wishes of his supporters. This is how O’Mara started playing a little hanky panky and got “broken” in the process by a partner he neither loves nor can afford to leave.

    If O’Mara puts Zimmerman on a short leash (as one would still expect him to), the strong probability of rebellion by Zimmerman exists. If Zimmerman dose rebel, O’Mara would be in deep sh*t : (a) Zimmerman will get a new lawyer; (b) the new lawyer will become the new celebrity; (c) O’Mara will lose his celebrity status, free advertisements and public exposures; (d) O’Mara’s reputation (whatever is left of it) would forever be damaged; (d) O’Mara may not get a dime from Zimmerman for almost a year’s work of $400 p/h (Zimmerman is broke and may go to prison for the rest of his life); (e) Zimmerman and his supporters will definitely throw O’Mara under the bus and blame him for all the misfortune that has befallen Zimmerman. When all these happen, O’Mara’s goose as a lawyer shall have been cooked. He (O’Mara) definitely cannot afford that. And he knows it.

    If O’Mara cut’s Zimmerman loose, the consequences would still be the same. But like all men, self-preservation is paramount in all of O’Mara’s business/social/professional ‘calcul’ and dealings. O’Mara cannot afford to get rid of Zimmerman or put him (Zimmerman) on a short leash. He must continue to maneuver and manage the situation taking instructions from Zimmerman and respecting the wishes of the donors (and if possible do some laundry for Zimmerman) until (a) the trial ends and/or (b) he gets his money.

    • Rachael says:

      Do you think that if by some miracleO’Mara wins this case, it will be worth it? I mean will the notariety make up for the time and money he lost while serving his client? Will he then get enough criminal clients to make it financially worth it? Will his integrity take a hit or will he just be trading that for $$?

      • Malisha says:

        If you mean “win” by acquittal, O’Mara will be canonized by the proFogens and he will be hired to represent every bigot with a dime in his pocket who wants to go on the subsequent killing spree. If you mean really win, by getting Fogen a plea bargain that was probably the goal of both sides before the first bond hearing, then he will get plenty of business and do very well because it will be generally understood that he got the client the best possible deal. The third possibility, which is that he starts to engage in a big “He can’t go to trial because of PTSD” defense while he hopes the publicity dies down so low that he can plead his guy out for a parking ticket at age 50, it all remains to be seen. There are way too many variables in that equation and the equation itself is not simple.

        Then there’s the possibility that Fogen runs.

      • leander22 says:

        I mean will the notariety make up for the time and money he lost while serving his client?

        It sure will, he already told Fogen that prominent people had called and thanked him that he took the case. They surely will reward him by taking him as their lawyer and recommend him. If he wins he can pick and choose his clients carefully..

        Machiavelli’s Il Principe/The Prince is rather well respected in polite professional and economic and political circles. for many, many centuries by now.

      • leander22 says:

        Sorry, Maiisha, I hadn’t read your comment when responded. You say the same I felt reading it only much better. 😉

      • leander22 says:

        Malisha, one point. I respect your theory about the plea bargain. But I don’t think that O’Mara can afford it if he wants to be canonized by the pro-Fogen camp.

      • gblock says:

        Then again, he could write a book.

    • SearchingMind says:

      If O’Mara sees this case through, that will be a huge positive for him (unless he makes some really bizarre mistakes during the trial). if the case ends with Zimmerman’s conviction, O’Mara will still be the go-to-person as far as the media is concerned. He can go on talk-shows, give exclusive interviews, deliver speeches and lectures on various subjects and get large monetary compensations for that (he might make about $1mil in a year on this case alone). His (infamous) celebrity status will remain intact. The only part of the media that will shun him are the haters (such as the ones Jr. appears on). They (the haters) will literarily throw O’Mara under the bus and blame him for everything that went wrong (but that will not matter much because they are a tiny fringe on the hard-right and no one takes them serious anyways). Oh, I do not want to contemplate the scenario of O’Mara winning this case – because if he wins, I will pack my bags and go on a loooong holiday to China.

    • Jun says:

      Knowing Fogenhats

      He never planned on ever paying Omara

      Just like Fogenhats’ landlord, his former lawyers, the court

      He’d rather not pay anyone, blame everyone, and manipulate people

      Listen to his jailhouse call, Shellie was in on the scheme and manipulation

      • Cercando Luce says:

        (Forgive me, Professor)
        This puts into my mind all kinds of silly puns:
        Debtor Fogen=Red Incan, etc.


      • leander22 says:

        Jun, he never planned to pay for the obvious reason, when he hired him he had no money to pay him with. Remember O’Mara wanted to declare him indigent. Thus none of this obviously matters. O’Mara even stated he would probably not be able to get a job for the rest of his life. I found it peculiar at the time.O’Mara thought that far ahead for his client. From this lifelong perspective obviously the underhanded dealings with the sponsor money did not matter to O’Mara. What mattered to him was the client wasn’t able to work.

        I noticed that Benjamin Crump thinks the IRS will connect Fogen anytime soon. Of course he is the expert on Florida law even tax laws. But I am still unconvinced.

        • racerrodig says:

          “I noticed that Benjamin Crump thinks the IRS will connect Fogen anytime soon. Of course he is the expert on Florida law even tax laws. But I am still unconvinced.”

          It’s coming, one of my connections, who is my son’s Godfather, is retired IRS Criminal Investigation and his former partner, a customer of mine said he’s owes about 70K…..It’s coming.

          They just don’t want it to look like it’s “Pick on Cheorge” time.

      • leander22 says:

        thanks racer, so he would have needed to found some type of tax exempt charity first? But the money is gone anyway, O’Mara will declare him indigent and additionally file personal bankruptcy. Could that work?

        • racerrodig says:

          Nope….you cannot bankrupt taxes. Pay up Fogen…..

        • Xena says:

          But the money is gone anyway, O’Mara will declare him indigent and additionally file personal bankruptcy. Could that work?

          With the bankruptcy reform that went into effect in 2005, taxes are not discharged under chapter 7, and GZ is not a wage earner to qualify under another chapter.

          • racerrodig says:

            He’s screwed on that one and I for one an damn glad of it…..

          • Xena says:

            @racerrodig. Right around the time for the immunity hearing is tax deadline also. What’s that saying about when it rains, it pours?

          • racerrodig says:

            Fogen “…um your honor, since I owe all that money for taxes, um which isn’t my faulty since it was given to me, I think you should drop the murder charges.”

            Judge Nelson “Really, why is that?”

            Fogen “…, everyone’s just picking on me. I was,um, just protecting the neighborhood”

            Judge Nelson “Denied”

            Fogen “Well, um, how am I gonna make the money to pay the taxes”

            Judge Nelson “When your wife gets out of prison on her perjury conviction we’ll have her start making payments, how about that Mr. Fogen”

            Fogen “um… you’re picking on both of us”

          • Xena says:

            LOL@raccerrodig. That sounds just like something GZ would think and say.

          • racerrodig says:

            Trust me, the Zidiot Nation is already planning to tell O’ Mara to go down that road. After all, how many crimes can one be accused of at one time. Well the simple answer is as many as can be brought, the Zidiots just don’t see reality.

      • Xena says:

        Sorry racer. I replied before reading your comment.

      • Jun says:

        Racer says it is so

        and from my limited understanding of American taxes, Fogenhats is not a real charity, and those are considered earnings, and he cant even write it off because he claimed it for a legal defense and he did not spend a dime on defense, just on himself as if they were his earnings

        Both American and Canadian legal systems of taxes have a “just let it go” policy, depending on the person at certain times, but I do not feel Fogenhats is liked enough for that to happen, especially since he basically perjured the court and manipulated law enforcement, so they will go after him with everything

        • racerrodig says:

          Exactly. He is not a registered charity and he misused every penny of his donations. When he started to pay off bills, hire security and use it for bail he created another problem, however since he is the sole one who asked for money, it does not matter how it was used. He was basically panhandling.

          What a dork !!

      • Jun says:

        That is true too

        He was panhandling and from what I heard, even beggars get taxed on what they begged for, as some make about $40,000 a year begging

        It is an income, and they are earnings, hence he will be taxed

        • racerrodig says:

          My guy tells me he owes about $70K and they really aren’t inclined to take an IOU. Ask Wesley Snipes, who is far more likeable, about that. Hey Fogen……pay up !!

      • gblock says:


        I have not heard of the IRS having a “just let it go” policy. Apparently, they will arrange payment plans under some circumstances. Also, if you owe back taxes from years ago and didn’t get caught, they may be more inclined to let you pay a fraction of what you owe if you ‘fess up and make arrangements with them. However, if they have been keeping an eye on you before things get that far, you are probably SOL on that one.

        • racerrodig says:

          The IRS is harder on unearned income like his donations than any mistake on earned income. He owes about $70K and that is what they will get, by hook or well…….a few years in prison and wage attachments. I don’t believe any tax prison sentence can be served concurrently with a separate case….Tough nuts there Fogen.

      • Jun says:

        They allow all government officials, some leeway in letting people go for things, if it is not that big of an issue, and you are not some evil guy

      • leander22 says:

        Nope….you cannot bankrupt taxes. Pay up Fogen…..

        Could the money from sponsors be considered gifts without returns?

        Gift tax in the United States

        When a taxable gift in the form of cash, stocks, real estate, or other tangible or intangible property is made the tax is usually imposed on the donor (the giver) unless there is a retention of an interest which delays completion of the gift. A transfer is completely gratuitous where the donor receives nothing of value in exchange for the gifted property. A transfer is gratuitous in part where the donor receives some value but the value of the property received by the donor is substantially less than the value of the property given by the donor. In this case, the amount of the gift is the difference.

        • I received a personalized Thank You card from fogen after donating 2 cents to his paypal account…..Why he even called me his “friend”…yeah right……exchange of goods?

        • Xena says:

          @leander22. Gifts are not requested, they are simply given. GZ put up a website and requested money. Since he did not register as a not-for-profit, the donated money is not deductible for donors, neither exempt from taxes for the receiver.

      • leander22 says:

        and he misused every penny of his donations.

        The vast majority on Jeralyn’s TalkLeft blog argued that it was a wised decision to pay off interests. All these people were also Fogen supporters. Strictly it is for the donors to decide what can or cannot be done with the money. And quite obviously they booked the paying off of debts as part of his living expenses.

        I haven’t turned into a Fogen supporter, but I try to look at this objectively.

        In any case, I am sure that there even may be legal devices to put a wall between sponsored money for the benefit of Fogen and taxes. Law does not necessarily mean justice always.

        • Xena says:


          Strictly it is for the donors to decide what can or cannot be done with the money.

          GZ made a specific request; i.e., living expenses and legal defense. He did not request money to pay-off his pre-2/26/12 debts. Neither did he request money to upgrade his cell phone, have a landline installed in a house that he does not live in, and pay for WiFi 2 yrs in advance.

          He had not been charged when requesting the money and after he was charged, he deceptively sat in court while ShelLIE misrepresented her knowledge of the money. That is a demonstration of bad faith that speaks volumes.

      • leander22 says:

        wised decision

        no idea what the “d” does there. the little bugger seems to have slipped in without asking consent. 😉

      • I have long understood that GZ is not tax liable for the funds he received because they are considered gifts; monetary gifts are not taxable to the receiver, if I understand this correctly. Is there anyone who is a tax person who could clear this up? Not that this really matters, to be truthful, in the whole scheme of things as far as justice for Trayvon is concerned. In fact, I believe that Prof. Leatherman already covered this very topic.

      • Jun says:

        “In the United States, the gift tax is governed by Chapter 12, Subtitle B of the Internal Revenue Code. The tax is imposed by section 2501 of the Code.[2] For the purposes of taxable income, courts have defined a “gift” as the proceeds from a “detached and disinterested generosity.”[3] Gifts are often given out of “affection, respect, admiration, charity or like impulses….”

        Fogenhats’ donations do not fall under the category of a gift, and fall under the category of income

    • blushedbrown says:


      Excellent post, couldn’t agree more.

  46. Jun says:

    Across 110th Street

    • seallison says:

      Not gettin it, Jun.

    • looolooo says:

      You’ve good taste Jun. It’s also on the “Jackie Brown” sound track, and on itunes. I downloaded it a few years ago. They just don’t make music as good as they used to.

      • Jun says:

        There are still good artists and music, in fact, Bobby Womack put out another album and it is pretty nice

        Just nowadays, some artists do not put a lot of effort into their lyrics or their melodies, as it does not sound very well thought out or planned

        Also I think it is a budgeting issue as well… growing up, music and art programs get cut a lot and it is tough to financially make a song with a full band nowadays… you can make electronic music all by yourself nowadays but there is something about old school instruments that has a certain soul to it and sound as well too… which is where lack of funds hurts music

  47. seallison says:

    Professor — those were not just everyday treehouses! Had he not led the criminal life, he had enough talent to make a million dollars honestly.

    • seallison says:

      A reckless genius. I am going to go out and buy Ann Rules book.

      Professor, you have been involved in quite a number of high-profile cases. In your eyes, Fogen probably pales in comparison to the many characters you have crossed paths with during your career, I am sure. We are lucky to have you at the helm guiding us through this case. Thank you.

      • Operacarla says:

        I remeber the Scurlock case vividly. I lived on 75th and 18th NE in Seattle at the time. Mr. Scurlock was discovered hiding in a camper parked in a yard on 75th and 20th. When discovered he shot himself. I remember this was so sad. I walked past that yard everyday on my way to school(Eckstein Middle School). The neighborhood has a dark vibe for me now, as we had just gone through the Ted Bundy era a few years earlier. (I was a teen girl and none of us could go anywhere alone. Our mothers drove us everywhere – scary times!).

        I think MOM stated that fogen doesn’t have enough $ for a good defence because it will cost a fortune to pay a forensic scientist enough $ to declare him/herself a laughingstock by claiming that fogen took 12-24 blows to the face, the pounding of his noggin on the concrete to the point of exploding and the smothering of his bloody nose and mouth and yet Trayvon has no blood, DNA or bruising on his hands. Only a 1/4 inch abrasion (this is 1/4 inch —). I think they might have to settle for an actor.

        Have a great day everyone! Happy Inauguaration President Obama! Hail to the Chief!

      • Operacarla…..As far as fogen not having enough $ to pay for a good defense, forensic scientist, etc…….he should have thought of that before he used much of the money to pay off his charge, buy new phones, etc. He HAD the money, but probably thought that the case wouldn’t go this far….fooled him!….TOO BAD.. 😈

  48. Welcome back Professor. Your input has been missed.

  49. Romaine says:

    Welcome Back Professor, glad to see that you are well..I know that I am not a regular poster on your site; you all should know I read what you write and JUST LOVE YOU ALL… i was starting to worry about you Mr. Leatherman…that and the fact that I got bored with your students…they kind of went to a nazi left field zone…that i had no interest in…IJS…I really missed you keeping us focused…Be Blessed

  50. Two sides to a story says:

    So what did Crane think of your adventure? Did she go with?

  51. Xena says:

    Alright professor and Crane-Station, time to grab each other for a Saturday night dance.

    • kindheart101 says:


    • racerrodig says:

      Love Canned Heat and the Blues like that ! The guitar player all the way to the right, Harvey Mandel, with the red Telecaster plays about as good as I do…no kidding and I look just like him, without the sunglasses, oh and he’s about 30 lbs lighter, and he has longer hair, and I don’t have those sideburns, well maybe he’s a little better than me and he’s in a world renown band, but other than that, he’s like my twin. Wow, that was from about 1970 ??

      • Xena says:

        Hey Racerrodig!

        Wow, that was from about 1970 ??

        Yep. 1970. Kinda hard to tell what Harvey looks like with the sunglasses on, or was that part of a joke? 🙂

  52. Kelly Payne says:

    That never happened of course.But some people are dumb enough to believe him,or maybe they don,t believe they just don’t care.

    • Malisha says:

      They don’t believe it. They just want to SAY they believe the “attacked by a thug” line so they can back the white killer against a Black victim.

    • Jun says:

      I dont feel people honestly believe the guy

      I mean there is specifically 2 witnesses, 18 & 8, who combined, place Fogenhats as the person targeting, stalking, threatening, terrorizing, confronting, and attacking the victim, Trayvon Martin

      There are screams of someone yelling for help and pleading for mercy, and the voice sounds like a kid

      There is also a voice threatening the victim, the kid, the other voice and it is an older voice

      The forensics dont back up the defendant

      The victim does not even have a history of violence and is just a kid

      The defendant is the one with a history of violence and manipulation

      Everything Fogenhats the cult throws out is smoke and mirrors, strawmen arguments, and just racism

      I do not believe they are that stupid, they have an agenda is all, an ulterior motive for backing Fogenhats

  53. Malisha says:

    Something just occurred to me about the Fogen case, OK to go ahead with it?

    Fogen bought the gun for self-defense.
    To hear and believe him about what happened on 2/26/2012,
    Trayvon “emerged from the darkness” twice.
    The first time Trayvon “emerged from the darkness” he circled Fogen’s car and tried to intimidate Fogen.
    The second time Trayvon “emerged from the darkness,” he issued a hostile challenge to Fogen’s right to just walk along minding his own business, by saying, at least, “What’s your fucking problem?” if not, the even more threatening, “What’s your fucking problem, homie?”

    Right then, the neighborhood watch captain KNEW without a doubt that he needed self-defense.

    Self-defense was the very thing he bought the gun FOR.

    So how come he went looking for his cell phone rather than his gun?

    No normal person would reach for his cell phone to ask for help based upon the idea that he could not, at that point, defend himself; every single normal person who had a gun would reach for his GUN, because allegedly self-defense is what a gun is FOR.


    So if you want to believe that Fogen did not even understand the challenging question to be a threat when he SAYS he was going to call 911 (the number you call for EMERGENCIES), go ahead and believe that. But if you can find six other people to believe it, that’s a stretch.

    • kindheart101 says:


      My thoughts are most people that carry, or own a firearm, is for protection, collection or hunting. I think Z “required” one for self esteem, self security, intimidation and needing to fulfill any police type of role that he could never achieve.

    • Jun says:

      Due to the position of Trayvon’s body, he had to come up with some crap, to try and justify his crap

      He knew drawing his gun at first may make him the aggressor, as Trayvon asking “Whats your problem, homie?” really is not a serious enough of a threat to kill the kid, as it is simply a question, therefore, if Fogen pulled out his gun first, Trayvon would then have a reasonable fear to defend himself, but in actuality he did reach for his gun anyways LOL

    • kindheart101 says:


      To feel inadequate he should! The guy hasn’t accomplished a thing in his life. (Except to lie proficiently)

      • Malisha says:

        He doesn’t lie proficiently. He lies a lot, though. Serino saw through his lies and wanted to charge him with Murder-2. “His” cops and his daddy’s connections (or Osterman’s or something) prevented that, but it wasn’t the proficiency of his lies. And it wasn’t his poor broken nose.

        Think of it. If I really wanted to kill somebody I’d get a gun, wait until they were going somewhere unarmed and unsuspecting, and then push them and harass them until they popped me in the nose, and then shoot them dead and pose for a bloody-nose picture and hire a lawyer to say, “She was reacting to having her nose undisputedly broken and she reacted by yelling help help.”

        Great system, let’s institute that one. I’m in line for my trusty fire-arm and I’m making my little list as we speak. Let’s see, Judge A, Judge B, Judge C… (just kidding; there was no Judge A).

      • kindheart101 says:


        Guess I should have followed the “Lies Proficiently” up with, in his own mind? Good point.

      • Jun says:

        What Fogen does is a form of “SWATTING”

        Except Fogenhats The Third is the Swat guy

      • racerrodig says:

        He did take a leisurely 7 + years on Criminal Justice. That has to count as a record, er, accomplishment of some sort.

        • kindheart101 says:

          Good morning Racer!

          It’s great to sign on and see your smiling face.

          As far as record? The only “Record” of “Accomplishment” I want to see him achieve is 35+ years behind bars. 🙂

    • Tee says:

      He’s a Liar and the world knows it. He had his hand on that weapon as soon as he went between those homes looking for Trayvon. X is a “want to be cop” why wouldn’t he mimic what a cop would do, he already had the tactical flashlight that police carry in one hand so why not complete the picture by having his hand on his gun. He had his hand on his gun when he approach Trayvon, when neighbors heard them arguing. I believe that he didnt pull it out of its holster until after Trayvon and him wrestled on the ground. i believe he slipped and hit his head and this made him angry. Trayvon attempted to get away but X caught him grab hold of his hoodie to make sure that He wouldn’t get away again, and that’s when He pointed that gun at that young man chest and made sure he didn’t shoot his own left hand and he pulled the trigger.

      • racerrodig says:

        To be honest, it’s a shame he didn’t shoot his left hand. Try explaining flopping on the ground getting you ass waxed by “Slim” as Trayvon was known to his friends, and having the hollow point blow your left hand apart. All kidding aside…..explain that one away. I can’t wait for him to answer that being careful not to blow digits off my hand in court.

      • SearchingMind says:

        “(…) I can’t wait for him to answer that being careful not to blow digits off my hand in court”.

        That’s IMO one of the reasons why the likes Jeralyn Merritt (Esq) has gone silent on this case (for now at least). Fogen presented what I call a ‘panzer-defense’. The problem though is that the panzer Fogen is in has a lot soft spots. If you pierce any of those spots with a needle, the whole panzer blows up taking Fogen with it. I do not think that Fogen realizes the devastating power of that statement relative the self-defense stories as constructed by him.

        • racerrodig says:

          And that’s why I said “(…) I can’t wait for him to answer that being careful not to blow digits off my hand in court”.

    • he forgot he had *THE* gun. duh!!

      don’t we all have silly little things slip our mind when we’re chasing innocent kids on the way to target?

      • racerrodig says:

        “don’t we all have silly little things slip our mind when we’re chasing innocent kids on the way to target?”

        Fortunately all of us have common sense and
        1) Don’t carry guns
        2) Don’t profile others
        3) Mind our own business, yet watch “out” for others
        4) Have decorum
        5) Don’t follow others in an effort to provoke or harass them
        6) Wouldn’t even consider having racist “friends” like Taaffe
        7) Don’t drive behind someone who is on foot with the lights off in
        the dark
        8) Call the police to set someone up
        9) Remember to actually bring a “form of payment” when shopping
        10) Blame everyone else for our problems

        What did I miss ????

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Fantastic post, racerrodig!

      • racerrodig says:

        It not my lie, it’s not his lie it’s THE LIE so ……’s – not – my – fault.

      • Jun says:

        (11) Dont kill a kid and then spread slander of the kid

        (12) You cant magically change races. Being white one day, hispanic one day, black one day, does not make one not racist.

        (13) If you are going to lie, do not make your lies contradict with each other, and inconsistent

        (14) When the jail house phone system states that all calls are recorded, it is not a good idea to spill out your plots and plans

        (15) Killing a kid, and then scamming racists for money, and staging a self defense claim, is not a good retirement plan

        (16) Pay people when you use their work or products

        (17) Not everything can be put off by claiming self defense LOL

        (18) Getting a divorce lawyer to handle your murder 2 indictment is more than likely not a good choice

        (19) Convincing the public that a scrawny teenage boy with no weapons is deadly, is only going to work with rednecks and other predators

        (20) Smearing blood onto the tip of your nose does not equate a broken nose

        (21) Dont stalk, terrorize and threaten kids by using a car, gun, and flashlight

        (22) Having an invalid CCW license does not make you a cop

        (23) Robert Fogenhats Junior is even dumber than Fogenhats The Third

        (24) Staging wuss scratches does not make your murder indictment void

        (25) The Conservative Treefort are idiots and rednecks

        (26) Witness 8 or Deedee is not the real name of the witness

        (27) Lying to a judge, and then getting a new judge, does not make the lies goes away

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I think you meant @ #10, “DON’T blame everyone else for our problems.”

        I’d add, “11) Don’t kill people’s kids”

        or “Aren’t monsters” for that matter.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Not to worry, no one is going to believe that GZ was reaching for his phone in the face of a proposed challenge like that. That’s what’s called a “thread bare lie”, a lie that gets no support in nature or natural actions. It’d be like trying to say that you touched a stove that unexpectedly turned out to be burning hot, but you didn’t pull your hand away quickly. People look at your hand for confirmation and they see not even a small blister. How can they believe the story? They can’t!

      GZ says plainly “They always get away!” That means that, despite calls for the police to come investigate, the suspects always manage to evade the police, using the time it takes the police to respond.

      Okay, now GZ wants us to believe, that in the face of an immediate challenge to his own person and personal safety, the only thing he can think of to rely upon, is his ability to call 911 and the police who never come in time. While, at the same time, he “forgets” that he is carrying a weapon that, he not only always carries, but has taken pains to load with extra deadly ammunition, and load to the maximum the weapon will allow. But, he wants you to think this is done by such easy reflexes, that he never gives the matter any thought at all.

      Do you ever remember tying your shoes? Do you ever remember putting on a tie? A jacket? A skirt or a blouse? Do you ever remember if you are wearing high heels? Sneakers? Running shoes? Well, then, surely you can forget that you’ve loaded a gun cartridge full of hollow point bullets, wracked the gun to put one in the chamber, then removed the cartridge and put another hollow point bullet in the cartridge to replace the one now in the chamber, then placed the gun in it’s holster, then concealed the holster in the waistband of your pants. See? So simple a task, it’s easy to forget that you’re now able to kill someone on a moments notice, eh?

      Of course, why are you carrying a gun if you’re unable to remember that you have it? It’s not going to be of any use to you, for defense, if you can’t remember you have it to use. Right? So let’s see, what would it take to remind you that you have a weapon on you?

      Could it be a strange person in the dark, acting suspiciously? Could it be a strange person, brazenly coming towards you? Or brazenly circling your truck? Or coming back at you out of the dark to circle your truck? Twice?

      Would you remember that you had a loaded firearm on you, when you decided to leave your truck and go after that strange person acting strangely?

      You’d have to be totally brain dead, to not have any of those situations listed above, not cause you to remember that, that hunk of metal pressing into your backside, is a deadly weapon you can use to defend yourself with lethal force.

      GZ, however, is not totally brain dead, so it’s more believable that when he first sighted TM, he thought about his gun. Most certainly he thought about guns, when he remarked that TM had his hands in his waistband. He even states that he thought this action was to be associated with a firearm, by saying that it was likely an attempt to intimidate him. So, how would putting ones hands in a waistband, be intimidating, if not for a firearm? Or… Maybe GZ was afraid that TM was going to make a lethal display of underwear?

      But, as you can see, the enumeration of the things, the actions that night would cause an armed person to think about, makes any forgetfulness about any firearms a thread bare lie.

      • Jun says:

        The T story is a huge lie anyways, so no one is gonna believe he reached for his phone at the T anyways. Him forgetting his gun is another really stupid lie, especially since he used Shellie’s gun, so he specifically grabbed it to go out that night, and it would be metal protruding into the butt and hip area, so there’s no way, he did not know he had the gun. He’s gonna either have to admit he specifically went out with Shellie’s gun, or that he always carries Shellie’s gun without thinking. Once that is done they will move on to other lies, or other things the bloodclot Treefort want Omara to say, since Omara is their little House Slave.

        His other arguments will be just as futile

        (1) They have proof that he stalked Trayvon continuously, and kept going to wherever Trayvon was trying to run to, to get away from the defendant. If Omara tries the Treefort argument of, “Hey you cant attack people for following you”, the defendant has already gone through too many incontrovertible lies to have any credible reputation. Besides, people are not gonna expect a kid to just think good thoughts about a stranger with a gun, that keeps running after him, and going to wherever he tries to run to get away from the defendant. And on top, the defendant, confronted, then attacked the victim. So that goes that nonsense.

        (2) Deedee is authenticated and supported by on scene evidence and witnesses. She was not even there, and she has more credibility. I doubt Omara can break her barrier and shield, because she really is not being dishonest. Besides, witness 18 can pinpoint when and where the confrontation and killing took place, and if the defendant did not run after the kid, why was he down south on the back pathway, confronting and threatening the victim? He would have been back at his car, or still in his car if that was his real intent.

        (3) During trial, Omara can’t use witness 6’s recanted statement, without getting witness 6 in trouble. The math is quite easy, and witness 6 will likely stick to his recent statement because of the forensics and other witnesses. Besides, witness 6 only saw 5 seconds or so of the struggle, and since Fogenhats is the aggressor, Trayvon is allowed to defend himself, and would be justified, but there is no forensic evidence that supports this theory anyways.

        (4) Just because you have an injury, you cant just blame someone for the injury, without proof, or any sign of injury, like barely.

        (5) The future criminal Trayvon victim crap will just piss off any reasonable juror and they will just think the defendant and his lawyer are POS’s

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          …And, the blood evidence is inexplicable. Except that GZ has been found to have animal blood on his clothing. So, maybe that’s where all that blood came from, because it sure didn’t come from any beating he got at Trayvon’s hands. It even looks like it’s too much to come from those tiny capillary wounds that had already begun to heal.
          Maybe John brought the blood out and poured it on GZ for the picture? In any event, the presence of animal blood on GZ adds yet another reason why GZ would not want to go to the ER. As if we don’t have enough reasons already, eh?

      • Cercando Luce says:

        “Already begun to heal” was from the physician’s assistant the following day, iirc. But your reminder of the animal blood gets me wondering if the defendant were on a blood-lust rampage– graduating from animal-kill to murder of human beings.

      • Lonnie…..Re: “They always get away.” At that moment, when fogen made that statement, he associated Trayvon with the “they” catagory of people. And who are the “they” people?…..All the people he had previously suspected (profiled) that he wasn’t able to catch. So by putting Trayvon into the same catagory as the ones who always get away, he was indeed profiling Trayvon.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yes. …And lest we forget, there’s video with sound from 711, so they have a sample of Trayvon’s voice. That will be compared to GZ’s voice and guess what that’s going to show about the matter?
          Could that be why the defense team has finally gone quiet?

          Oh, right… That’s the prosecutions work product, so O’Mara won’t get any discovery on that. The SP will simply wait until the matter of the screams come up at trial, then present their results.

          Hardly a wonder that O’Mara’s screaming about “trial by ambush”! What he’s really railing against is, the fact that the SP has all this powerful rebuttal evidence that they don’t have to release, because it’s not discoverable.

          • racerrodig says:

            Lets not forget that voice sample he did on March 22nd, that …
            helpmehelpmehelpmehelpmehelpmehelpmehelpme Sample, you remember that piece of work !! You don’t even need sophisticated electronics to see where that will go.

      • gblock says:


        “The future criminal Trayvon victim crap will just piss off any reasonable juror and they will just think the defendant and his lawyer are POS’s”

        The future criminal Trayvon crap is not allowable in a court of law, and there is no way that O’Mara would be allowed to present that as part of GZ’s defense, even if he was stupid enough to try.

  54. kindheart101 says:

    This is in fun Professor. LOL Please don’t ban me………..(ducking)

    And so Dear Prof, a day you said,
    was needed for, the trip ahead.
    You didn’t tell us you were wild,
    we saw you as, smart, kind and mild.

    An older man, who represents,
    advise to those who need defense.
    But now we see, your crazy side,
    In Tennessee, OH WHAT A RIDE!

    On icy roads, you took your hog,
    you left us, ALL ALONE, to blog.
    It’s been 2 days, we didn’t know,
    that you were playin in the snow!

    So in the future, let us know,
    a day may turn to two or so.
    We need your mind, your expertise,
    so stay the HELL off icy streets!!!!!!!!!

    • Xena says:

      LOL@kindheart101’s poem. That is funny.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Oh my gosh, what a great poem……..I can’t believe you turned it out in so little time…less than a half hour!

      You are one talented lady, kindheart!

    • Kindheart, you’re so sweet!!

      • racerrodig says:

        Professor “Born to be Wild” Leatherman…

        Get your motor runnin
        Head out in an ice storm
        Listen to the wind howl
        Ice balls on my face


        Yeah darlin gonna ride all day now
        Fight the wind and this icy place
        Why take the car now babe
        My helmets in place

        I like thunder n lightnin
        Heavy metal thunder
        Racing ‘gainst the wind now
        And that feelin’ that I’m freezin’


        Like a true nature’s child
        I was born, born, to be wild
        And I climbed so high
        I fell like I’m never gonna die
        Born to be wild…..born to be wild…….

        Welcome back Professor !! For some reason the scenes from “Wild Hogs” just keep flashing in my head.

      • kindheart101 says:


        Well……….Thank you, but to be honest, I can be pushed to the edge also. 😦 Although I try to back away, log off or ignore comments, (On certain sites, HP, etc.) I have been known to breathe fire at times.

        I think that’s why I enjoy it here, along with everyone that posts. It is informative, and even a difference of opinion is discussed rationally.

        • i know Kindheart, when i go to those other places i get so angry i wanna get violent, when i’m not!

          the things they say can literally put me into a state of depression. it effects my moods.
          so i try really hard to stay around here, amongst like minded, intelligent compassionate people and i feel safe. and i feel like i haven’t gone mad!

      • kindheart101 says:


        I go to support friends that have fought for “Justice for Trayvon”, as I have, from the beginning. I ignore the trash, as best I can, and let them know I am still around, like an itch, they can never scratch. 🙂

  55. Jun says:

    This is my jam BTW

  56. Jun says:

    I was wondering yall

    Can the jury convict on Murder One, even though it is a Murder 2 trial?

    I am wondering this because I have had visions where the jury would ask this when they render their decision, and in my vision, the jury asked if they could convict on Murder One, because they felt it was depraved and premeditated, but they will go guilty on Murder 2 if that is all they can do

    In the same vision, I saw the jurors get kind of grossed out at the autopsy photos and listening to Trayvon scream for help and beg for mercy and get killed by the defendant