Hating the Fogen Is Self-Destructive

Tuesday, January 15, 2013

You all have been coming up with some great questions for the juror questionnaire. Keep up the good work.

I have a short article because I will be traveling most of the day.

On the open thread at 8:13 pm last night, Judy75201 said,

I don’t know how many of you keep [up] with this subject on Twitter, but Junior’s twitter behavior is bizarre. He keeps changing his focus based on what favorable response he can get. And he keeps @ting media folk as if they are going to read his desperate fawning for attention tweets. It really makes me wonder if their is a family psychosis going on, and if Senior is the root? At any rate, it is disgusting and makes me hate Junior almost as much as I hate GZ. And yes, I went there. I hate GZ for what he did and even more so for what he did afterward and continues to do to this day.

I reprint my answer here since most of you will miss it way back in the comments. I am reprinting it because I think it’s good advice for all of us, including me.

I understand why you feel the way you do, but they are not worth hating.

You have a limited amount of energy. Use it wisely. Hating does nothing to the object of your hate. It does, however, dissipate your energy and diminish your ability to be a loving person and experience joy.

Why would you want to hurt yourself like that.

The fogen is toxic to himself and everyone with whom he comes in contact. Detach and dispassionately observe the destructive effect he has had on his family and their effect on him. Recognize that and let go of your hate. If you permit him and his family to cause you to hate, you will have surrendered to them and your surrender may destroy you.

They are not worth it.

Be kind to yourself and others.


1,022 Responses to Hating the Fogen Is Self-Destructive

  1. Xena says:

    Professor, I respectfully ask that you remove the comment by aninsightfulmind about the hate site. The reasons are because that site is not easily found by search engines, and is generally known by the cyber-stalker, cyber-harasser, illegal doxer posting it on other sites and/or his most recently created Twitter account.

    The second reason is because aninsightfulmind may not have read your post about Word Press taking down a site by the same person, and that he voluntarily took down his other site and re-opened it on blogspot.

    The third reason is because, IMO, we should not advertise blogs who have posted that their intention is to “destroy” you and those who participate here.

  2. WOW…..Just checked that site……

    I’m a member of the Trayvon mafia?….Hell I’m not even Italian !!!!!!!

  3. fogen by way of Yoda

    “fogen? screwed he is”

  4. Malisha says:

    Oh I found something ELSE wacko about the Joaquin Rams case. The guy’s conceal/carry permit was revoked in 2010 and then he applied again and got it reinstated in May, 2012, about five months before the death of his baby. Hmmmmm. I’m going to FOIA that information.

  5. Malisha says:

    Professor, I just happened upon something that I feel compelled to comment on. It is a peculiar situation that relates, in a strange way, to the case of the death of Trayvon Martin. It does not include any kind of overt racism, but it is interesting in how many ways it intersects.

    For starters:


    OK, a guy named Joaquin S. Rams is a “person of interest” in two deaths (one ruled suicide and the other ruled homicide) in Virginia. For years and years, he lives off the life insurance generated by the first death (the alleged suicide of his own mother) together with the social security disability payments being made to him on behalf of his son by a first marriage, to a woman who is now dead by homicide. So first his mother dies by “suicide,” while her other son (not Joaquin) protests that he doesn’t believe that COD, and THEN Joaquin’s wife dies by a gunshot wound in an unsolved homicide.

    And then he inherits this son and of course sole custody of this son, who comes with automatic income through disability.

    Then Joaquin then gets engaged to a woman he met on-line named Hera McLeod and they have a child together, Prince. Hera soon leaves Joaquin and asks for sole custody of Prince and the father contests it, asking for sole custody. Mom gets sole custody but she opposes unsupervised visitation on the basis that the father is unfit; Judge Michael J. Algeo from Montgomery County, Maryland makes a decision that the dad can have unsupervised visitation specifically because the prosecutors in Virginia have not charged the father with any crimes.

    Judge Algeo says he used to be a prosecutor. If you have evidence, you charge the crime. If not, then not. So he sees the mother’s fears about the father to be unfounded. Somebody killed his last wife? OK, the judge calls that “smoke that’s been blown” and continues on as if the mom shouldn’t worry about a little thing like that. The death of the child’s paternal grandmother is still in question? Judge Algeo is not worried about that either, because the Virginia prosecutor wasn’t worried about it.

    What you see here is very scary. Prosecutor’s have absolute discretion. They may have their own reasons for not prosecuting Joaquin for the death of his last wife; there may be plenty of evidence that he killed her; Manassas is the jurisdiction where Robert Zimmerman Sr. was a magistrate for years; perhaps he wouldn’t draw a search warrant for anyone to check Joaquin’s house for a murder weapon, who knows? But the issue, to me, is the idea that the failure to charge a person with a crime, even in the face of really serious reasons for suspicion, can be used by the judicial system as evidence of “parental fitness” or “squeaky cleanness” or anything else, when there are obvious realities involved that may not lead to a prosecution but that should never be ignored.

    Just think of what would have happened if Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin had not gotten the kind of help they needed to get a real investigation of the killing of their son. Fogen could be a police officer by now. He could be committing “good shoots” all over Florida. He could be killing lots of “suspicious a55holes,” who otherwise would have “gotten away.”

    I think Prince Rams was killed in Virginia, a notoriously corrupt jurisdiction for any kind of crime against children. And I think that Prince Rams’ mother has been unable to force any kind of valid investigation of the crime. And I think Judge Algeo was pretty much an enabler to a child abuser who killed his own baby son because he didn’t want to have to pay child support. And I think that the press has ignored the outrageous situation of the foreseeable death of Prince Rams. A few little articles came out when he died and after that, not even publication of the official “cause of death.” The father has not even been charged with child endangerment, apparently. Isn’t something wrong with this picture?

    • Xena says:


      Fogen could be a police officer by now.

      Not a chance. In addition to his college failures and being ADHD, GZ was rejected by the Marine Corp. Oh, and let’s not forget that he had a back problem. Government agencies and other employers are very cautious to not hire workman comp risks. They also investigate credit ratings and GZ had debt problems along with civil suits for non-payment of credit cards and rent.

  6. Malisha says:

    I think Jean Tesori would have to write the music.

  7. Malisha says:

    I wish I could compose music.
    I wish I could PLAY music and compose music.
    I’d want to compose, write the lyrics for and play:

    “Hating the Fogen.”

    I just love that we have adopted “the Fogen” as the way to refer to this; it is so big, to me, the disappearance of the name behind “the Fogen.” OMG. I can hardly even remember, when speaking with people who have not been blogging on this blog, how to use the name itself — so that I can be understood. It’s hilarious. I accidentally say, “Fogen…” and then correct myself, because they have no idea what I mean by that. :mrgreen:

    • cielo62 says:

      Malisha~ make sure when you DO compose it, that it’s for 2 part banjo music.

      • Malisha says:

        I’m thinking opera.

        At one point, the protagonist (a kind of “Greek Chorus woman” who would comment on all parts of the situation in song) would go into a rant about Fogen’s Hannity Interview.

        Tune in, Tune on in.
        Fogen’s on the air.
        Spews his poison, dead-eye, dead-eye,
        Spews his poison everywhere.

        Oho, tune in,
        he wants to tell you more,
        More stories ’bout the righteous man
        caught in an evil media war.

        So tune on in and listen up,
        Fogen will now enlighten,
        So you know how to view this thing,
        when he was hurt and frightened.

        Tune in, but hey,
        Don’t get too keen on details,
        ’cause that is where the devil resides,
        Just read his brother’s e-mails.

        [speeding up and becoming quite agitated]

        Don’t get angry, don’t get mad,
        You see how calm is Fogen,
        So follow suit — he killed a guy
        and nary a sweat was broken.

        So stop the fussing, quiet down,
        and quit all that protesting,
        all Fogen did was God’s own plan
        which should not cause arresting!

        [quieting down now and singing in a very soft, dull tone]

        Fogen…just had to do it,
        just had to do what he did,
        because…after all, otherwise,
        no one would have caught the kid.

        A great bad thing would have occurred,
        Trayvon would have gotten away,
        since nobody else would have stopped him
        as he sauntered home that day.

        And that was not in Fogen’s plan,
        not in the Fogen’s control,
        and Fogen would have failed to be
        master of his own soul!

        [singing with bravado and a “glory voice” now]

        Master of his own soul,
        Hero of the neighborhood watch,
        Fogen Fogen, draw “THE” gun,
        You need to carve that notch.

        • kindheart101 says:


          I am getting ready to be gone for a couple of days. I decided to read a few more comments, then I read yours.

          It is excellent. From the beginning, to the end, you brought me right back to the day I watched the Hannity interview. I was so upset I had watched it, but, your words gave me comfort in knowing I was not alone in what I felt.

          Thank you Malisha.

          I hope to see you in a few days.

        • cielo62 says:

          Malisha~ I was thinking “Deliverance”. Not too smart inbred rednecks with LOTS of violence and banjo music. Either way, it’s bound to win awards!


          • Hey……Watch what U say about Rednecks…..I am one 🙂

            The term originates from sitting on a tractor all day with just a hat & shirt on……hence a sun burnt neck….

            A friend gave me a T shirt a few years back that said


          • cielo62 says:

            OOPS! Here I am not being careful with MY sensitive words! I like that “Wellread necks!” I’m afraid I am guilty of my stereotypes, surrounded as I am here in Houston with people who take pride in being intolerant and ignorant (ie not needing to go to school). To me, that is a “redneck”.

          • Remember also I’m a philatelist………yuppers….so much for stereotypes huh? 🙂

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Opera AND banjo! I love multi-culti! Maybe a Peruvian panpipe for the overture, too.

  8. Malisha says:

    OK, I have been only halfway paying attention to this blog (and other on-line and even in-real-life things) for a couple of weeks and now I came on this morning and saw that I had gotten somewhat into a discussion that was unhelpful, and I actually seem to have led the way into that unhelpful discussion, and it had a result that I very much regret, and want to try to reverse.

    MountainmanPat, I’m trying to tempt you back into the blog because I enjoyed your comments. I don’t own the blog and I don’t run the blog so it’s presumptuous of me, but when I open a thread to read I like to find you there.

    Here’s where I stand on religions: they’re fine, just not for [me] and not for [misapplication, misuse, misinterpretation, or abuse]. I’m a Jew.

    From what little I have studied of history, I can see that religions have played as many good roles in the world as they have played bad roles. I get that. Spirituality, obviously, more good than bad. (Xena, I understand the difference.) I have neither. But I didn’t mean to start trashing religions, and when it was clear that I had actually done so, I tried to lighten it with the humor it deserves.

    Your description of being “saved” by Jesus was hilarious to me. I should have plugged in a comment to show how much so. But I actually believe that Jesus DID save some people; I believe he (obviously, meaning “it” as in the “concept of Jesus”) saved the African Americans during and briefly after slavery years. Clearly it was the African American churches who formed the backbone of the Black abolitionist movements in the South. And Christianity has been a “liberation theology” in Central America, as I hear it from some people who know a lot more than I do. Of course, the way “Jesus saved” the African Americans was by the assumption of divinity within the reality of an abused and actually murdered person living a real life in real times. But if Jesus lived, so did they. Who can argue with something like that? It worked.

    I don’t actually understand the notion that nobody but you protested what I said about religion. And now, although I don’t generally respect the “Some of my best friends are religious” defense, I’ll actually indulge in it.

    Some of my best friends are super-religious Mormons from Virginia, Orthodox Jews from Maryland and New York, Charismatic Christians from Iowa and DC, Spiritualist Muslims from India, and practicing Roman Catholics from about ten different places in and outside the U.S. Not one of them would ever kill somebody in the name of God. I have only told them I’m a godless person if they have asked. They find it disturbing.

    Anyway, if I offended you I’m sorry, and if I didn’t see things clearly enough, come on back please and clear it up for me. OK? 😀

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Here is a car analogy for clarification:

      Whoever is behind the steering wheel can affect the outcome of the “ride.”

    • Malisha….Again I agree with what you’ve posted above…

      Xena….My original comment was that “I think it best if I leave this blog FOR AWHILE”……..That was not out of anger…and in no way did I imply it was permanent….it was not a F Ya’ll I’m outta here.

      YAHTC “However, let’s emphasize that those churches and religious people were NOT following Jesus’ teachings of love, forgiveness, tolerance”………

      If not the churches themselves, who should keep groups like westboro in check? I have yet to read where any major religious organization has taken a stand against them………”OH that would require judging them”…..how else is one to discern a false prophet if not by way of judging them?

      I agree with Malisha that Jesus was a good person who believed in what he spoke with regards to, love & peace.

      I also enjoy the book of proverbs as there is much wisdom to be gained there.

      I also agree that the catholic church is nothing more than a continuation of the roman empire…..and they FORCED their beliefs on others (the new world) at the point of a sword ( believe as we tell you……or die)

      The catholic bible has more books in it than the “christian” bible……which does one believe?

      The old testament is also a part of the bible….where you’ll find instructions on who can be made a slave….who cannot…and how to treat ones slaves.

      Psalm 137:9 “Blessed are they that dash small children’s heads against the rocks”…a god of peace? WTF?

      The pro lifers?……..lets see them put their money where their mouth is and stand outside abortion clinics offering to adopt any child that one wants to abort….What kind of life will that unwanted child have if it was not wanted in the first place by it’s mother?

      I do need to take a break from this for AWHILE…..I am not angry with any one of you….I will also not discuss religion anymore on this blog…..and I will be back.

      I was on a blog about the boy scout being refused his Eagle Scout award because he’s gay. Why should it concern me?…I’m straight?….I got involved because I saw an injustice being done that was wrong. Discrimination & bigotry, I also saw there the same types of people as the zimbots….”He should have just joined the girl scouts” and the like…….the same hatred as displayed by zimbots.

      I DO respect all of you and the fight for justice for Trayvon

      I posted a song by Sly and the Family Stone which got a few responses…..Another I posted drew no replies….so I will post it again…and PLEASE do listen……

      Phil Ochs…….”Outside of a small circle of friends”


      Ya’ll keep up the fight for Trayvon, and the injustice done to him

      Ya’ll take care & know that I am with you in spirit…..


      A warm day here on the mountain…in the 40’s…..I’m goin’ for a hike.

      • blushedbrown says:

        Thank you for the video, along with the lyrics. This song speaks the truth.

        But I like to think that we are trying to change that by using our voices, signatures, and marches by changing the wrongs.

        I like your posts and I do hope that I continue to see your input on the case, as well as other things of interest, like your mountain. 🙂

        Have a good time on your hike, and make sure you got “Betsy” with you.

      • Xena says:


        Psalm 137:9 “Blessed are they that dash small children’s heads against the rocks”…a god of peace? WTF?

        In context, the 137th Psalm is about Babylon. Verse 9 is a continuation of verse 8.
        “O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us, he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”

        The Babylon that David speaks of is within mankind. Spiritually understood, Babylon is confusion. “Daughters” represent the soul/mind that creates confusion and once brought into actions, is doomed to destruction. The Apostle Paul, who was a Pharisee of natural understanding, knowing the scrolls and the prophets, persecuted those known as the Way. Paul had a revelation changing moment. He confesses of being taught by Christ and is the Apostle who wrote about spiritual understanding. In that understanding, Psalms 137:8-9 is explained in this manner:

        “For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.” 2Cor. 10-4-5.

        Just wanted to share this with you to demonstrate that not all people read and understand the Bible the same way.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I love Phil Ochs………and this song is an excellent one for us to reflect upon.

        You know what I think is beautiful?………that all of us come from diverse backgrounds and beliefs and that we are united in seeking justice for Trayvon. All of us have chosen not to sit back and be passive bystanders but instead have stood up as advocates for Trayvon.

        Enjoy your hike…..the views……and the fresh air, Pat!

      • cielo62 says:

        MOUNTAINMANPAT! Glad to see ya!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        re: the Phil Ochs song–

        Here is a great, short video by two kids who chose to get involved and advocate for Trayvon:

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        [[[ If not the churches themselves, who should keep groups like westboro in check? I have yet to read where any major religious organization has taken a stand against them. ]]]

        Actually, even a year before national attention was focused on him, people from various Christian denominations stood across the street from this church and demonstrated against its hate by holding signs.

  9. Malisha says:

    SpecialladyT, I think the reason the defense is screaming about the prosecution “withholding evidence” is that they need to start up and sustain some kind of big boo-hoo to give them an excuse for throwing in the towel and copping a plea. They need to say, “We could NOT try this case because the prosecution was hiding evidence, so even though Fogen is innocent we couldn’t risk going to trial with the threat of withheld stuff coming at us at the last minute,” and/or “We had no money for experts and the prosecution was hiding the experts they were paying the big bucks to railroad our poor innocent guy so we had to deal” and/or “whatever we finally did was because of terrible bad unlawful racially-motivated political unfairness and unconstitutional behavior on the part of the state’s attorney and NOT because he really did anything wrong,” or some other prepadded bullshit lie.

    Defense has no defense.

    They need to manufacture a fraudulent picture to sell whatever ultimately goes down. My bets right now are on one of the following three scenarios/excuses going down:

    1. Fogen cannot go to trial because he has PTSD because the state is hiding evidence they are manufacturing and we can’t defend against it because we don’t have money, and all because of anti-white racism;

    2. Fogen has to plead to an unjust and unfair plea deal because the state is hiding some plot to ambush him in an unfair trial, all because of anti-white racism; or

    3. Fogen got mistrustful and had to escape because he realized he could not win, given the state’s intention to ambush him in an unfair trial. All because of anti-white racism.

    • cielo62 says:

      Malisha~ but in the end, GZ will go to prison because no plea will be offered.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Well, if any of those claims were true, they’d be grounds for a very good, and probably successful appeal. However, before we reach that point, the defense needs to show that they actually have a theory of innocence that the facts of the case and the evidence supports.

      The problem is, the defense has wasted the money they needed to have professionals work with the evidence. The defense was on tv, when they should have been burning the “midnight oil”, working over the materials of the case.

      I guess that when Francis Robles said that bloggers were working the case, turning in evidence analysis that would have cost tens of thousands of dollars to produce, O’Mara thought: “Gee, I can turn to the internet for my experts as well!” Unfortunately, the “experts” he found there, working his side of the case, were not using the evidence, but were instead playing with emotions and using falsehoods. O’Mara should have seen that his side of the case needed more than rhetorical jousts and wordsmith offerings.

      GZ should have stayed in jail pending trial, so that the 100k fee could have been used for defense experts. Now they’ve got no money and no case. They can, of course, blame that on anyone they want, but that’s not going to be of any help to them with the case or the appeal.

      It’s probably just as well that GZ did spend the money to stay out of jail as long as he could, because, it is the evidence he provided himself, that makes it more likely than not, that he’ll never be on the streets ever again.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        If George decided to go to jail now, could he get the $100,000 back. I mean would he just pay the bail people the interest on the $1 million that the bail company put up?

        • blushedbrown says:


          Thank you for the video! I sat there watching it and thinking where the hell is my Grandpapy with all those inventions to help me clean!

          BTW, I got nothing done!

        • cielo62 says:

          YAHTC~ nope. Nothing he could do would get him that money back. That is their fee, and how they make their money securing the release of all kinds of alleged criminals.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Nope, he gets nothing back, that 100k is the bailbondsman’s fee. They charge 10% of the total bail as a fee, then demand collateral for the rest of the principle amount. But, they have insurance themselves, so sometimes they can work deals. Like a smaller than 10% fee to get a really big fee, since they don’t come along that often. So, for example the bondsman might usually handle a ton of 5 and 10k bails, he goes for weeks earning fees of 500 hundred to 1k.

          So this big case comes along he’s got a chance to knock down 100k on one person. So, to get that business he might go for 90k, but he’s going to insist on 910k in collateral. In this case it went the other way, the bondsman took the 100k, to get the cash, even though the family was short on collateral. They can do that because usually big bail cases have high profile defendants who probably wouldn’t be able to run very easily.

          But the 100k is fee so there is no refund. O’Mara would have done better to take out a 1m loan and post that, using the cash on hand to pay the interest. Then he’d have more money to spend on defense and the whole million is returned when the case is disposed of.

          • kindheart101 says:

            Thank you for that information Lonnie.

            I hate to admit it, but in some sick sense, I find that comforting.

            I always enjoy reading your posts.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        You are welcome, blushedbrown.

        Don’t worry about not getting any house cleaning done…….it will all get messed up again anyway. 🙂

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Wow, thanks for that info, Cielo.

        • cielo62 says:

          YAHTC~ You’re welcome. If you had the stomache for gambling on people, some of which truly are guilty of what they are charged with, you could make a nice living posting bond.

      • blushedbrown says:


        Wrote in part:

        I guess that when Francis Robles said that bloggers were working the case, turning in evidence analysis that would have cost tens of thousands of dollars to produce, O’Mara thought: “Gee, I can turn to the internet for my experts as well!” Unfortunately, the “experts” he found there, working his side of the case, were not using the evidence, but were instead playing with emotions and using falsehoods. O’Mara should have seen that his side of the case needed more than rhetorical jousts and wordsmith offerings.

        I think that O’mara has looked at the blogs like this one in particular, and said to himself ” We are up a creek without a paddle”. That is putting it mildly. I think he looks at how everyone uses the evidence here and thinks if these lay people can get all this done with the some amount of evidence that is out there, imagine what BDLR can do. I think he does use what has been done by blogs like Bcclist regarding timing issues. It would make sense as to why he is using the other video tapes of the other businesses on Rhinehart Ave.

    • Jun says:

      If anti-white racism does not work, Fogenhats will then claim to be hispanic, and then black… actually scratch that Trayvon is black so it wont work for Fogenhats

  10. SpecialladyT says:

    I want to confirm that SA’s office only has to turn over what they will use at trial and of course exculpatory evidence. Am I correct that the SA office doesn’t have to provide MOM any other discovery that they will no use other than exculpatory for fogen?

    • Malisha says:

      Here’s an educated guess, Speciallady:

      They have to turn over all exculpatory evidence;
      They have to turn over what has been specifically requested and approved by Judge Nelson if they have it;
      They have to turn over the evidence they have to be presented in their MAIN CASE (where they prove murder-2, NOT where they respond to Fogen trying to prove self-defense); BUT

      They do NOT have to turn over any evidence that they will use to REBUT the defense’s case, because the defense has not yet made its case. So they can be sitting on a veritable SHITLOAD of turn-your-head-all-the-way-AROUND type evidence that will be used, if necessary, to DISPROVE the Fogen’s idiotic self-defense claims, IF he tries to make them. They don’t have to show what they will use “if and when” the time comes for them to controvert a case that has not yet legally been made.

      And that is where Fogen’s enormous vulnerability lies. His attempts to show self-defense may enable the prosecution to put on evidence (remember, he doesn’t know how much or what kind the prosecution HAS) so overwhelming that in the end of a full trial, the jury will wonder why Corey undercharged him. ❗

      • SpecialladyT says:

        Thanks Malisha. I am reading all over the net that the state is withholding evidence and the SA has to turn over all of their findings whatever they discovered. That is not true, only their case, what Judge Nelson has ordered and exculpatory evidence.

        I am sick and tired of the accusations that the SA is withholding evidence and would like to put my fist through the screen (not really) and shut these Zidiots up. They can’t be anymore ill-informed, it is maddening!

  11. Malisha says:

    I’m going to address the perception that I wrote a diatribe against religion per se. I think I was just writing observations about gangs. But here’s my paragraph:

    Religions get people to become hostile outward while being allegedly cohesive inward by two methods, generally: worship of some death-less authority who can direct and forgive any kind of behavior; with simultaneous rationalization of any kind of outrageous conduct by talking shit. ANY religion that advocates harming someone because they’re doing wrong (or insulting the faithful somehow) uses the exact same two techniques, together with instilling terrible fear of the religion casting out those who do not show their submissive obedience quickly or vigorously enough. Recently I read the confession of a man who murdered three people in Illinois and who had absolutely no motive for doing so; he simply fell into the thrall of a psychopath who told him to kill those people and so he did. He seemed to feel no real stress at the fact that he had ended three lives, and his response to the situation was to feel STUPID that he had followed directions, not to feel BAD AND IMMORAL AND TERRIBLE for having done wrong!

    Remember, this came after my speaking about my impressions of the Aryan Brotherhood.

    I said religions generally link up worship “of some death-less authority” with rationalization of “any kind of outrageous conduct” by “talking shit.” Just so, the Church of England allowed for the “punishment” of “witches.” God had ordained it, so some guy could decide a woman was a witch and go ahead and legally kill her. The Hebrew religion that became Judaism likewise provided, in writing, that you could stone someone to death for adultery. Nice. The Catholic Church has a murder history longer than its current little episode of altar-boy-sexual abuse, everybody knows that. Islam, whether Suni or Shia, has not only clear-cut “OK TO KILL” laws but even a set of heavenly rewards. We have preachers right here right now in our country who will stand up and say it’s not sin to kill gay people or doctors who have performed abortions. I haven’t studied any of the Eastern or South Asian religions but I frankly doubt there is any religion anywhere that hasn’t availed itself of the enormous power (over life and death) offered by simply telling folks the “BIG GUY” has pre-approved it.

    I read about a case recently that I can’t get out of my head; I have mentioned it above. Apparently a guy (who was raised in a religious family, by the way) got into a friendship with another guy (no idea if he was religious or not while growing up) who was dominant in their relationship. So the dominant guy I’ll call Johnny and the non-dominant guy I’ll call Ned. OK. Johnny has a child with a woman he never married, and they start up conflict over custody and the woman serves the father with custody papers to go to court and get a standardized court-ordered custody determination. So Johnny is upset and apparently doesn’t remain very silent about it. One day Ned buys a gun (after a three-day wait) and within a week he breaks into the house of Johnny’s ex girlfriend (WHILE the child is with daddy, BEFORE the custody battle has gone to court) (but get this; daddy is on a videocamera gambling on a riverboat while the murders take place so he has an ironclad alibi, but who’s baby-sitting?) and shoots her mother, father and brother dead.

    When Ned is apprehended, he has no real reason for having killed his victims, but does say that Johnny got him to do it. (He goes back and forth from “he told me to do it” to “He said somebody else would kill my family if I didn’t” to “I dunno, I’m just freaked out, I’m tired, I don’t remember, wow, I’m fucked.”)

    Here you have a guy who actually pulled the trigger on three people (all unarmed) and doesn’t really know why he did it. The news didn’t cover this story as much as I thought it probably should have, but that may be because in that town, in that state, and maybe in that police department, they really think an unmarried woman trying to “take custody away” from a guy should be grounds for at least a few murders. Who knows.

    My point is that a gang, a cell within an organized religion, an intensely intercoercive close-knit xenophobic family, a corrupt organization, a division of the military branch of a vicious government running an empire in the world, a court of law packed with corrupt judges and prosecutors, a white supremacist group with a “Jewish leader,” a quasi-religious organization with its own twisted and holier-than-thou attitude about the bad people in the world who need to be taken care of, and/or any combination of the above, including perhaps (not impossible) the HOA of the RTL in Sanford, Florida, can operate with a generalized conspiratorial “us can do what us wants to them” ethic for quite a while in a variety of horrible ways and it doesn’t matter when you get right down to it, except with regard to motive. IF Fogen killed Trayvon Martin because he felt like his exalted position as protector of the community made it essential for him to do so, or if he killed Trayvon Martin because voices told him to, or if he did so because he was convinced (as were his co-“religionists”) that Trayvon Martin was a thug who was refusing to worship his natural authority and therefore it was God’s WILL, does not matter. Any of these categories is described by Florida law as “depraved mind.” And there are numerous other categories described by Florida law as “depraved mind.” It doesn’t matter what depraves the mind!

    Fogen has claimed that the killing was justified by his having been placed in fear for his life, and that’s his defense. He also has claimed that he was placed in fear for his life while he was not aggressing against Trayvon Martin — thus HE, FOGEN, has handed us what he wants us to take as Trayvon Martin’s motive for placing him, Fogen, in fear for his life.

    It’s a mighty hard row for Fogen to hoe, to convince any rational person that Trayvon Martin had that motive (unprovoked aggression due to innate criminality) that night. Good luck with those high school records, Father O’Mara.

    • WOW……..Well thought out & well written….I also agree with every word and example you’ve laid out….Again………….


      • Malisha says:

        Thanks, MtMan, it has really been a meditation for me.

        You might enjoy reading a book entitled “The Tiger’s Wife.” Let me know if you do, or if you already have. :mrgreen:

        • Malisha…I’ll check out the book TY 🙂

          I’m sure many of you have heard the old Cherokee proverb….

          “A Cherokee grandfather sitting with his grandchildren told them, “In life there is a terrible fight- a fight between two wolves.

          One is evil: he is fear, anger, envy, greed, arrogance, self-pity resentment, and deceit.

          The other is good: he is joy, serenity, humility, confidence, generosity, truth, gentleness, and compassion.”

          A child asked, “Grandfather, which wolf will win?” The elder looked him in the eye. “The one you feed””

          I KNOW which Wolf I choose to feed…….

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I agree with you Malisha that evil has been committed by Christian church organizations and their followers.

      However, let’s emphasize that those churches and religious people were NOT following Jesus’ teachings of love, forgiveness, tolerance, etc.

      These religious people COMPLETELY broke away from the teachings of Jesus yet claimed that it was in the name of Christianity.

      • Malisha says:

        From what I have read of Jesus of Nazareth’s teachings, I agree with you completely, and of course, the entire religion (which was not named Christianity until long after Jesus died) is too complex to identify by the actions of a single organized church. In my opinion, Jesus was a scholar and a teacher, together with John the Baptist, and they were into some teachings and some philosophical positions that scared the Romans (and it didn’t take much to scare Romans) and resulted in the crucifixion, among other things. Remember that the Romans did these things without the formality of some of their gods telling them to do it; they seized, exercised and wielded their power without divine “justification.” Four hundred years later, they coopted Christianity and became “THE” Church and that worked for a long time in essentially the same manner. But back to my impressions of Jesus: He was political (subtly and a bit cautiously against the Roman occupation); he was scholarly (known to be among the top ten Torah scholars of his time, yet denied a seat on the Sanhedrin for reasons of prejudice and personal animus); and he was charismatic. His teachings were great, from my point of view, for the time and the age. Many people who have been similarly “great for the time and the age” met similar fates, of course. There are many hints of additional teachings of Jesus available in the Gospel of Judas, which are very spiritual yet also obscure and mysterious. That has been largely ignored by the standard churches, I believe.

      • cielo62 says:

        Maybe we should agree to let this issue drop. It’s emotional enough working for justice. An entire blog could be dedicated to just religion and its place in society. And I fear we have lost MountainManPat over it, and it’s not worth it.  

  12. ladystclaire says:

    @ Everyone, One Love One heart, let’s get together and feel alright. Buffalo Soldier dread locked rasta, it was a buffalo soldier in the heart of America. No woman no cry. those are all good songs with real meaning from this man’s heart. you guys are the best and, I Love you all. gotta go do my Saturday house cleaning as well as some laundry. have a nice day everyone. btw, I hope the professor is alright, I’m worried about him and Crane.

  13. kindheart101 says:

    Trayvon Benjamin Martin was a joy to his family. The loss, and pain they are suffering is felt by many. Just like the violent assassination of Martin Luther King Jr., they were both taken from us too soon, as the result of an evil, sick mind.

    Justice for Trayvon.

  14. ladystclaire says:

    @mountainmanpat, I love that song by Sly and the Family Stone. do any of you guys like Bob Marley? I also love the song by Kansas, Dust in the wind and I just bought the whole DVD for just that one song. but, Bob Marley and John Lennon are at the top of the list as my favorites. oh also George Harrison as well.

    • Bob saw things as they truly are…..his music show the wrongs of man……a hope for mankind….and a desire for peace & understanding….One of my granddaughters…(soon to be 5) favorite songs is “3 Little Birds” 🙂

      • ladystclaire says:

        Yea Bob did see things as they are and, he also saw how muich better the world could be if peace could only be achieved among the masses if given a chance. your granddaughter has nice taste in music lol. also, Bob use to read hands as a child, did you know that? what ever he saw in those hands came to pass. I not only have his music, I also have books and VHS tapes about his life. that’s just how much I love this man. he was such a good man.

    • Xena says:


      do any of you guys like Bob Marley

      (Xena, raising hand) We share the same birthday too! I also like his son, Ziggy Marley.

    • kindheart101 says:


      GET UP, STAND UP! 🙂

  15. ladystclaire says:

    Good afternoon good people. I was just reading over at HP and, there is someone over there using the name Frederick Leatherman once again. also I was reading on Ben Crumps face book page and on there, someone wrote a comment that said, there is the potential that Fogen picked Trayvon up and, slammed him down on the “GROUND” which is why he suffered some head trauma.

    I read that and, I believe that was the only slamming going on that night. Trayvon did have “GLOBAL BRAIN EDEMA” didn’t but, Fogen did not suffer even as much as a damn headache for his head to have been slammed on concrete repeatedly now did he? this POS makes my anemic blood boil to no avail. and, if I could get within reach of his FAT FUNKY BEHIND, I would just love to spit right in his bloated face.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Ha…….I think someone already did that…….wasn’t that the subject of one of gz’s earlier calls to the police…….road rage with spitting. 🙂

      • ladystclaire says:

        Yes it was but, since I don’t drive, I would just forget about road rage. this would be walk right up to his bloated ass and spit in his face rage. what this POS did to that child and for some people in this country to support him is *UNREAL* and he deserves to spend the rest of his life behind bars.

        • I’m right there with you Lady…..it would be one thing if there were a few supporting him…..from other vines & blogs it appears he has minions that support him….that is the truly scary part 😐

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Saw your contribution to Orlando Sentinel– you’re putting the “Fogen” right there into the mainstream!

  16. Mornin’ folks.

    Ya’ll have a great weekend

  17. SearchingMind says:

    @ elcymoo

    You asked:

    “So the ‘issue’ isn’t the quality of the tape, after all, but perhaps a fishing expedition to find out as much as possible about DeeDee’s personal information? Would notes taken by staffers be admissible unless they included direct quotes taken under oath?”

    Basically, anything DeeDee told anyone regarding the content of her telephone conversation with Trayvon on the night of his murder and/or her own whereabouts thereafter, is, depending on its relevance, potential (impeachment) evidence and as such subject to discovery.

    HOWEVER, I find O’Mara’s motion quite strange because of the following:

    1. O’Mara did not even remotely establish the existence of the items sought and that ABC has any of it. O’Mara based his Motion on mere assumption. O’Mara has also not established that a subpoena is necessary to obtain any of the items sought (it is not known whether or not O’Mara has in the past requested the material from ABC without success).

    2. Reportorial Privilege is guaranteed under the First Amendment. For the requested subpoena to have merit, O’Mara must convincingly demonstrate (a) a substantial relationship between the information he seeks and a subject of overriding and compelling defense interest, and (b) that that the information sought after could not be acquired from any other source(s). O’Mara has not done that – yet (the mere mention of the Sixth Amendment in the Motion is definitely not enough).

    3. I am surprised that O’Mara did not cite and/or argue one single authority in his Motion. The subject matter is not as simplistic as O’Mara assumes. This will surely be become an issue during the hearing (it would then not be right if ABC-lawyers would chide- or come down with proverbial sledgehammer on O’Mara for having no mastery of the subtleties and nuances of constitutional matters. Equally, O’Mara should have at least attempted to make minimal constitutional arguments in his Motion, IMO).

    4. I am highly surprised that Mr. Gutman as such is NOT a (co-) target of the subpoena. A reporter’s notes, memoranda, results of off-duty activities, etc. are not the property of their employer, etc.

    5. There is also an internal conflict within the Motion. Apparently O’Mara is subpoenaing among others “video recordingS” made of the DeeDee interview with Crump (Esq), while acknowledging on page 3, para. 4 of his motion that no such videos exist. I shall not go further (else this post will get too long) and just await the response from ABC lawyers. I do hope this offers some answers to your question.

    • SearchingMind says:

      I think that ultimately an amended version of the Motion will be granted (the “notes” “memorandums” , “files”, “correspondence” and “any and all records and information” are simply nonstarters). The Motion as it is now is convoluted and mediocre. Judge Nelson might also ask O’Mara to go and talk to ABC first and see whether it made its own recording of the interview and ready to provide him with a copy. There are a lot of practical solutions to the issue.

      • cielo62 says:

        I think the issue here is to continue the media-fabricated story that MOM wants of the “poor persecuted GZ” who has exculpatory evidence out there but mean, evil media people are preventing him from getting it. Hence the pity party and hand-wrining from his supporters along with a hopeful outpouring of funds. 

    • Jun says:

      Omara using assumptions

      Big surprise LOL

      He’s gotta stop listening to teh Treefort LOL

      I feel ABC may have a tape but it may simply be what was aired and ABC has to remain confidential and the safety of witness 8 so ABC may have to give Omara a redacted version, if there is one, or maybe it is simply what they aired, and we have all seen it

      Omara seems to have a hard on to try and demean witness 8…

    • SearchingMind says:


      Where O’Mara and D. West are concentrating paints a picture of their strategy and the strength/weakness of the defense they intend to mount on behalf of Zimmerman. That strategy includes (a) getting Crump (Esq) disbarred and/or humiliated in public. O’Mara and D. West keep implying that Crump doctored and/or edited the tape of the interview with DeeDee and refer to him (Crump) as “the handler” “of the Martin family”. I find that shameful, petty, small-minded, meanspirited and damaging to the legal profession. How and why these two gentlemen developed these extraordinary strong feelings of contempt, disrespect and possibly hate for a colleague of theirs is just beyond my imagination; (b) impeach DeeDee and/or get her completely excluded as a witness. It seems to me that the “evidence” O’Mara and West intend to use to accomplish these objectives is the “evidence” they (O’Mara, West) do not know whether or not it exists and, if it exists, whether or not ABC has it, and, if ABC has it, whether or not it will prove whatever they intend to prove with it. It seems also that O’Mara and D. West are also convinced that Zimmerman is charged with ‘DeeDee’ (as opposed to 2nd degree murder based on overwhelming insurmountable objective evidence) and that if they takeout ‘DeeDee’ (and there is NO chance of that happening), the case against Zimmerman will crumble! That says something about the extraordinarily extensive intellectual reach of these two gentlemen. They (O’Mara and D. West) are indeed the best trial attorneys. Ever!

      • Xena says:

        @SearchingMind. You laid that out perfectly. From the time that GZ was arrested, his supporters have wanted the case dismissed. Sadly, they have lead O’Mara and West down rabbit trails. Essentially, they do not want GZ to go forth on an immunity hearing and trial, not because he should not have been arrested but rather, because he is guilty.

      • Malisha says:

        SearchingMind, that is technique that O’Mara uses with every case he gets, and it is not even criminal law technique. It is domestic relations law technique. You attack witnesses, professional witnesses, doctors, baby-sitters, relatives, attorneys of relatives, employers and employees, etc. of the spouse you’re NOT representing, and you try to make sure nobody wants to get on the witness stand on behalf of that spouse. Usually you find that dom-rel attorneys who are best at this technique represent predominantly fathers in high-ticket divorce/custody cases. They rev up their clients with the kind of talk that nobody even has to use with Fogen because he came pre-programmed (“She can’t do that to you!” morphed into, “those reverse racists are out to get you for defending your community!”) and they just go ballistic about every imagined slight, insult, wrong, etc. ALSO they constantly insist that nobody who has a point to make against THEIR client could have ever come up with that on their own; they were all COACHED. If a wife says her husband beat her, she was being vindictive and making it up; she attacked him and he was forced to defend himself. If a kid claims to have been abused, the kid was coached by the vindictive mom. It reads like the front page of a tabloid, and the same damn drill every single time. Lawyers are accused of coaching the witnesses to say they witnessed bad behavior on the part of the sainted do-no-wrong client of these dom-rel raiders. The problem with the divorce cases handled this way is that usually the person facing this kind of onslaught doesn’t have money for the kind of bomber brigade defense that is required.

        Crump and Jackson and the prosecutors in Florida will easily withstand this kind of attack and there isn’t any chance that O’Mara’s techniques will overwhelm them UNLESS they want to play into it for public theater and then allow a little plea deal that minimizes the whole thing. THIS WILL DEFEND ON WHETHER THE FEDS ARE WILLING TO LET THEM PULL SUCH A FAKED-UP “RESOLUTION” OF THE CASE.

        But if this is a non-corrupt prosecution at this point in time, we should all relax and let O’Mara do his viking imitation because nothing’s getting these charges dismissed. If there were a way for these charges to get dismissed, you can bet that Fogen wouldn’t have asked for a chance to get that ankle bracelet off.

    • Malisha says:

      What can O’Mara DO this month? What can he ask for so he doesn’t look like a mannekin in a store window advertising circumflex eyebrows? He doesn’t want to spend any time on a motion and naturally it’s mediocre at best — remember, he’s a recycled domestic relations lawyer and “NRA speech maker.” The first time the prosecution handed HIM a surprise in court it knocked him off his little feet and there was his client Fogen thinking, “Some thug came up and told my lawyer, ‘now you got a problem’?”

      What CAN he do this month? He’s not about to ask the court to give him a subpoena for the security company’s client’s daughter who almost bought weed from Trayvon Martin, is he? He’s kinda…

      Tiger paw swipes anybody?

    • SearchingMind says:

      What can O’Mara do this month? Here is what I think.
      I think O’Mara is going to leak Trayvon’s school records without actually leaking it. Let’s say Trayvon had a verbal disagreement with X and Y. O’Mara – in an effort to demonize Trayvon, destroy his public image and talk about race – will file a another ‘Motion to Compel Testimony from Witness X and Y’. O’Mara will argue in that Motion that ‘there is evidence that suggests that Trayvon acted violently against his fellow students ‘X and Y’. The defense would like depose X and Y to determine the nature of the threat made against them by Trayvon, if they feared for their lives because of that threat, if Trayvon punched them, beat them MMA-style and broke their nose and/or pounded their heads on the ground’. Whether or not the Motion will be granted would not matter to O’Mara. That, after all, is not his goal. O’Mara’s goal is to throw red meat to the haters and let the hate feast begin on Twitter and various hate sites.

      • Rachael says:

        But WHY?!! How does that benefit him or his client? And ahat responsibility does he bear for the fallout after, regardless of the verdict?

      • Rachael says:

        I mean HE is the one who keeps saying he doesn’t want this tried in the media, it isn’t about race, yada, yada, yada – but HE instigates all this stuff and I don’t know why!!!

        Surely he must know the effect he has. Surely he has seen the horrible comments and all.

        And yes, it IS his fault. I’m not saying the people who say the horrible things have no responsibility for what they say, but for him to do the stuff he does and then stand back and watch all hell break loose is WRONG.

        He is like one of those people who when a person is standing on a bridge about to jump and commit suicide, someone starts chanting “jump jump jump,” then the whole crowd joins in and the person who started it is gone. Why the HECK doesn’t he talk them down instead of yelling jump? Does this make him look like a better lawyer? (no) Does it make his client look less guilty? (no)

        He starts all this mob mentality then says he had nothing to do with it – but he DID and and he does and I don’t know why or what good it is supposed to do.

        Why is he so hell bent on hurting Trayvon’s family? Why can’t he just try his case without causing a national furor?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Rachael….on this subject I have to quote this exchange between two of our team members back in October 🙂

        [[ Concerned Citizen :

        “Hey DOCJT – that Zimmerman Syndrome is downright scary. They all need to be taken away by the men in the white coats! “They’re coming to take me away – haha – to the funny farm”. LOL!!

        “You are doing a great job as usual – HIGH FIVE!!!!”

        [[[ DOCJT:

        “Thanks, girl!

        “Yeah, I have a feeling that the data collected on Zimmerman Syndrome is going to show positive correlation between support of Zimmerman and several clinical disorders, as well as being positively correlated to a well below average IQ. I’m guessing somewhere in the 2nd percentile.

        “First step is collecting the data from the population. Fortunately, the population is giving me plenty of observational data and direct quotes to work with. Then I will code the data, enter it into an SPSS data set, and begin statistical analysis to show correlation through Pearson’s R and significance through ANOVA. Will probably do some post hoc testing to further support the analysis. I find this type of study to be fascinating!”

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


    • elcymoo says:

      It does, SearchingMind. Thank you for taking to time and trouble to give me such a detailed answer.

    • elcymoo says:

      It does, SearchingMind. Thank you for taking to time and trouble to give me such a detailed answer.

  18. Dennis says:

    Since Jun has been sharing his views of Nazism, I would share a book with you.. It is a mind blowing book that alleges that the Nazi empire survived and infiltrated the top levels of American society (banking, government, NASA, CIA, NSA, etc…).

    If what he says is true, America is destined to become the Fourth Reich.

    It is called The Rise of the Fourth Reich: The Secret Societies That Threaten to Take Over America by Jim Marrs

    • Jun says:

      Actually Nasa used Nazi scientists and they came up with the rocket

      The scientists did this in exchange for not being prosecuted for war crimes

      • Malisha says:

        Whole bunches of top Nazis, predominantly scientists, came over here and had the most cushy deals for citizenship, even changed names, and pre-feathered nests, to join the gang here that really COULD become the empire Germany only dreamed of. They just changed the “run” and their talky talk. Easy.

      • cielo62 says:

        Yes, it’s been documented. I even saw a History Channel documentary on it, so it’s not classified information anymore.   I think very few people ever really bought into the entire Nazi party line. The ones who did had the power to enforce it. Incredibly it has taken almost 80 years for the stories to come out about the Germans fighting AGAINST Nazi power to come out.  The scientists, being scientists, probably just wanted funding for their projects, it doesn’t matter who holds the purse strings. The same is true today. GOP or  DEM, scientist want their funding from whatever source is in power.

        • Cielo….I’d have to disagree with you on that….West Germany issued many stamps honoring those Germans that fought against the nazi’s

          • cielo62 says:

            mounainmanpat~ when did those stamps come out? Remember, the story of Valkyrie has only been know in the last 10 years or so here in the US.   All I can say is, GOOD that the stories are out! I can’t fathom an entire nation being that evil. There were many good people who risked all for doing the morally right thing. And they and their stories should never be forgotten. Even in the darkest times, some rays of humanity and compassion can shine through.

    • Dennis….a link to Jim Marrs web site…


      I am a 2nd amendment supporter…..At the same time I don’t see the need for private ownership of assault weapons, or high capacity magazines.

      Would taking guns away from the citizens be of any benefit?
      Would security guards be allowed to possess firearms?
      Would the drivers of armored cars (trucks) be allowed weapons?
      Will it come to the point that only the wealthy can hire armed security to protect them?

      One I like is the anti gun senator that shot an intruder in his home


      To me it all reeks of Animal Farm….some animals are more equal than others

  19. Malisha says:

    About the Aryan Brotherhood and any debate about whether it is a religion or not, and whether it is racist or antisemitic or not, and whether it is a “racketeering corrupt organization” or a hate cult, I have made a quick tour of the www and my opinion is that it is a gang and not much else distinguishes it.

    Gangs are built on the notion of mutual “protection” by means of outward thread and violence to “offenders” who are members of rival gangs or members of hated and/or targeted classes. The Aryan brotherhood apparently arose as a prison gang to “defend” and provide an emotional home for white supremacists. Among its leadership, convicted criminal Tyler Bingham is listed as “half Jewish” because his father was apparently Jewish. According to Jewish law, of course, someone has to have a Jewish MOTHER to be Jewish so Tyler Bingham would NOT be considered Jewish and the Jews don’t do “half” stuff. The Nazis labeled individuals as Jews if they had one Jewish grandparent, I believe, regardless of the Jewish grandparent’s gender or provenance. Who cares. it’s nonsense.

    The gang is using all sorts of coercive techniques and advertising techniques to strengthen its hold on prisoners and to promote its policies within the maximum security prisons of this country. Their crap is just misspelled, ignorant, run-of-the-mill hate talk without much coherence to it whether it’s allegedly based on racism, bigotry, misogyny, jingoistic nationalism, any form of xenophobia or flat out stupid assaholism.

    Religions get people to become hostile outward while being allegedly cohesive inward by two methods, generally: worship of some death-less authority who can direct and forgive any kind of behavior; with simultaneous rationalization of any kind of outrageous conduct by talking shit. ANY religion that advocates harming someone because they’re doing wrong (or insulting the faithful somehow) uses the exact same two techniques, together with instilling terrible fear of the religion casting out those who do not show their submissive obedience quickly or vigorously enough. Recently I read the confession of a man who murdered three people in Illinois and who had absolutely no motive for doing so; he simply fell into the thrall of a psychopath who told him to kill those people and so he did. He seemed to feel no real stress at the fact that he had ended three lives, and his response to the situation was to feel STUPID that he had followed directions, not to feel BAD AND IMMORAL AND TERRIBLE for having done wrong!

    No religious name was given to his conduct. He simply did it because he thought he should because he was told to do it because if he did not do it there would be bad consequences. How that is different from killing in the name of religion or even patriotism I cannot understand. Had he done exactly what he DID do but with a national uniform on, or in the name of some religion, it would have seemed more comprehensible to us all but my question is, essentially: WHY?

    If you’re gonna do something awful, admit that it’s awful and go ahead and do it and expect terrible results. Don’t just give it some kind of name, scrape off your skin and put on a symbol, and think that changes anything.

    But the religions and the cults and the national movements and the organized con men of 100 different stripes have been teaching us gibberish for millennia and it still works. And so the “Aryan Brotherhood” think there is something ennobling about their misbehavior. Dumb, inexcusable and common. Pffffui.

    • Dennis says:

      My favorite Ghandi quote is: Hate the sin, love the sinner.

    • cielo62 says:

      Well said, Malisha. WELL said.

      • Ditto here Malisha

        “The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.”

        Yup makes perfect sense to me…… :\

        • cielo62 says:

          mountainmanpat~ all mythologies are a little strange when you REALLY get down into the simple form of the story. Honestly, evolving from apes makes more sense than the Cosmic Zombie story. But if it gets people to become better human beings, and sometimes ot DOES inspire better behavior, then I’m for it, in its limited uses.

          • I support ones right to believe as they choose, as long as it does no harm to others….Or demean others or me because we don’t share their beliefs.

            Here’s one for you to check out…..How many Nobel prize winners in the sciences have been atheists?

          • cielo62 says:

            moungtainmanpat~ a quick and dirty little search says 67 atheists have won the Nobel prize.  Honestly, I have no problems with atheists. It’s HYPOCRITES in the disguise of some religion that gets me angry.

      • groans says:

        Could have done without that, MMPat. Sounds rather like an extended fist. ;-/

      • groans says:

        @MMPat – I give up. How many?

      • groans says:

        I wonder why replies sometimes don’t display in chronological sequence … like in this group, for example.


    • Jun says:

      Believe it or not, that is how they gain soldiers, no matter the gang. For example, Triads, were originally members of an organization to overthrow the Manchurians and to restore the land back to the Han people. The triads then became corrupted into the organization they are today. The same can be said of the Italian Mafia. They were at first an organization to fight for the rights of the people and then became corrupted. Gangs use these noble ideals to draw people in, no matter the gang. Aryan brotherhood uses the ideal of “saving white race” but is just a falsehood to brainwash soldiers to do their bidding. Whether or not Tyler is a true Jew, he still represents that people, and he is doing his ancestors a disservice and shame with his actions. Besides, the gang even admitted it to one of their enforcers, Michael Thomson, who is white/native American. Michael did not want to join the gang because he is against racism, allegedly, but they convinced him to join by showing they are just a criminal gang.

      • cielo62 says:

        I agree with you Jun. I think leaders are picked/survive by the fact that they

        understand the real workings of the gang, and are not blinded by the rhetoric. GZ is too stupid to rise very high in a real gang hierarchy. Hence the assumption that he ran a small time operation where he could be the leader makes sense.

        • Kinda hard to believe fogen could do anything without failing…..even small time.

          BTW I did see a vine last night with you beating down the zimbots……I had been doing the same myself on other vines as YAHTC knows……..I have to stay away from them now as all they do is piss me off…….

      • Jun says:

        Yes. I feel the same. In a gang, Fogen would be used as a patsy. I am wondering who he convinced to take the fall for him.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Excellent post, Malisha.

    • SearchingMind says:

      @ Malisha

      You said:

      “Religions get people to become hostile outward while being allegedly cohesive inward by two methods, generally ….”

      Now, “Religion” came to me with a well-founded complaint against you. “Religion” complained that she possesses neither limbs nor tongue nor any form of faculty or ability to think, conceive ideas or direct anyone to do anything. The facts as presented by “Religion” to support her case are undisputed and indisputable. It is therefore my judgment that ‘Religion’ did none of those things you accuse her of. You are hereby ordered to desist from wrongly accusing Religion of those wrongs. Failure to do so will result in a fine of $1 for each violation.

      • Malisha says:

        SM, I prepaid it.
        She’s still into me for a million seven.

      • groans says:

        She’s done her share of wrongs. She’s also done a lot of good, as evidenced by the sources of several inspiring quotes we cite in this blog.

        My parents advised their nine children [= hint about my background!] to avoid engaging in casual social conversations about sex, politics, and religion (or lack thereof). And though I have acted contrary to it many times (my biggest temptation being politics), I have learned that it is, indeed, wise advice.

      • cielo62 says:

        Searching Mind~ LOL! OK. CORRUPT AND GREEDY PEOPLE use religion as a means to control mentally-challenged individuals to do their bidding.   Better? Is Religion appeased? Because she cannot deny that she HAS been used, even though many tenets within her state that she is NOT to be used for evil. Still, being without limbs, tongue and etc, she is rather powerless what the unscrupulous will do with such a powerful weapon.

      • groans says:

        Any opinions about sex or politics that you feel similarly compelled to proclaim? 🙂

        • @Groans….

          I’m beginning to get the impression that you are intolerant of anyone’s views on religion other than your own.

          Nuff said

        • Heavens Gate…”If they had only known jebus and not joined that cult”

          Jonestown / Jim Jones “Those poor people were led astray by a false prophet”

          Scientology “Those people are in a cult…they should know jebus”

          westboro baptist…”Those people are doing gods work just as fogen followed gods plan”

      • Xena says:

        The discussion about religion took a turn to generalizations that I feel compelled to address. Those generalizations demonstrate prejudices such as we find in racial prejudices. Since the beginning of time, before there was written communication or even stories passed down verbally, there have been people who have a personal relationship with their creator.

        No one should judge the beliefs of others based on their own personal experiences, anymore than they should judge all Whites to color their hair orange and kill people in a theatre, nor all Blacks wearing hoodies as thugs. Just because I am tolerant and respectful of the beliefs and non-beliefs of others does not mean that I want to hear my belief disparaged. I certainly don’t want it compared to people who impugn spirituality under the flag of religion.

        • @ Xena

          ” Just because I am tolerant and respectful of the beliefs and non-beliefs of others does not mean that I want to hear my belief disparaged. I certainly don’t want it compared to people who impugn spirituality under the flag of religion.

          Ditto 🙂

          • Xena says:

            @Pat. You were the one who listed cults and while cults are classified under “religion” it is not fair coming from an atheist as it sounds as though you place all spiritual believers in one melting pot. I hope I’m articulating this properly. I do desire that everyone be a bit more concerned with how they come across when writing about issues such as religion and race. They are sensitive subjects and we just had a situation here involving the use of a racial slur that left a bad taste in the mouths of some.

          • Xena…….I respect your knowledge, passion & wisdom.

            To me Spirituality & religion are 2 different things. I consider myself a spiritual person….Even to the point of Karma….how it works, why things go that way I have no idea…..yet I do believe in it.

            I think it beat if I leave this blog for awhile, and trust in Karma that fogen will get his just desert….”gods” plan of not…..

            Ya’ll take care…..

          • Xena says:

            @Pat. It’s because of your spirituality that I reached out to you with a message of compassion, or at least that is how I intended it to come across.

            Don’t abandon us Pat. It’s not fair to you or us if you go.

          • Xena & YAHTC…..I want to quote a comment from near the end of this thread…

            “Remember, this came after my speaking about my impressions of the Aryan Brotherhood.

            I said religions generally link up worship “of some death-less authority” with rationalization of “any kind of outrageous conduct” by “talking shit.” Just so, the Church of England allowed for the “punishment” of “witches.” God had ordained it, so some guy could decide a woman was a witch and go ahead and legally kill her. The Hebrew religion that became Judaism likewise provided, in writing, that you could stone someone to death for adultery. Nice. The Catholic Church has a murder history longer than its current little episode of altar-boy-sexual abuse, everybody knows that. Islam, whether Suni or Shia, has not only clear-cut “OK TO KILL” laws but even a set of heavenly rewards. We have preachers right here right now in our country who will stand up and say it’s not sin to kill gay people or doctors who have performed abortions. I haven’t studied any of the Eastern or South Asian religions but I frankly doubt there is any religion anywhere that hasn’t availed itself of the enormous power (over life and death) offered by simply telling folks the “BIG GUY” has pre-approved it.”

            She’s naming names of specific religions and the crimes / delusions / evil / insanity…..Yet I see no comments protesting her comment…..

            I said religion, The only ones I mentioned 1. Heavens Gate…. Cult or religion?

            2. Jim Jones / Jonestown….how many followed his delusional thinking to their deaths?

            3. Scientology….Cult or religion?

            4. westboro baptist……religion or hate group?

            Again I find it odd that not comments were made in rebuttal to Malisha’s post as mine was?

            I was here for one reason and one reason only, and that is to see that Trayvon gets justice….

            All the rest is bullshit….

            Ya’ll have a GREAT life…


          • Xena says:


            Again I find it odd that not comments were made in rebuttal to Malisha’s post as mine was?

            The subject of religion started with Jun sharing about gangs. I simply don’t know how it got so far where you found it necessary to call believers “delusional.” Now, maybe Malisha did too. I don’t know. No offense intended towards Malisha but if I took time to read every comment that is a page long, I would not have time to read those of others. Additionally, I do make sincere efforts to support other blogs so I have to divide my time wisely.

            I was here for one reason and one reason only, and that is to see that Trayvon gets justice….

            Same here Pat, same here. Thank you for coming back to address this.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena~ the comment about believers being delusional is a quote from Mark Twain. He had no patience for hypocrites, either.

          • Xena says:


            Xena~ the comment about believers being delusional is a quote from Mark Twain. He had no patience for hypocrites, either.

            Pat quoted Mark Twain and he did so in agreement with him. Let me see if I can explain this. I take enough crap from Christians calling me a heretic and misrepresenting my beliefs. I don’t need to know if anyone is a believer, what denomination or religion or none at all. For me, I look at the person. Jesus Christ said only the Father is good. It’s that good that we are to recognize in each other, regardless of the labels people place on themselves.

            Is that so much different than what you have expressed in being judged as Wiccan? In essence, we are saying the same thing.

            Being thrown in a religious pot that, (as commented on this board), expressed as delusional, smelled too much like racial and gender prejudice. If we remove the word “Christian” and replace it with a race or gender or sexual orientation, it conveys the same prejudice. That was the essence of my comment to Pat.

          • cielo62 says:

            Dang MountainMan Pat! I went to bet too early or else I would have been writing about this already. I left a rebuttal just 10 minutes ago before I read this. Only people in religious minorities undertsand the issue, as only racial minorities understand their realtities.   I do so hope you return. This discussion IS irrelevant to the cause.

          • Xena
            “Don’t abandon us Pat. It’s not fair to you or us if you go.”

            First of all who is the “us” you speak of?…I don’t remember signing any papers to become part of “us”…..

            And who are you to judge what’s fair for me or not? I think I myself would be a better judge of that.

            Also a cop out when you say you don’t have time to read all the posts…..I see that YAHTC has replied to Malisha’s comment……

            Yet even though you’ve now been made aware of it…..I still see no comments from you towards Malisha’s comment…..interesting.

            That to me shows that Malisha could be higher up in the clique of “us”

            I’ve had to defend myself when I said I was a member of the NRA.
            & support the second amendment.

            I also had to defend my comments when Seallison who at one point called me a responsible gun owner……….only to change it when I post quotes of T. Jefferson and a historical fact that the first thing nazi’s did when occupying a county was to confiscate all the firearms of the occupied peoples…..Saying that those are the same excuses the “gun nuts” use….To me, by way of implication I went from a responsible gun owner to a “gun nut”

            No I have better things to do than spending my time defending myself as to my beliefs.

          • Xena says:

            @Pat. So, I see where you are venting, apparently holding me responsible for the comments of others to you. I can only speak for myself. If you haven’t noticed, I have not participated in the discussion about the NRA. In fact, I was not involved in the discussion about religion until reading your comment that believers are delusional. But it seems as though you want me to go back and post a comment to Malisha about your comment that believers are delusional????

            We can agree to disagree because I’m not giving you the power to place me on defense against your perceptions.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Xena, I think you expressed yourself very well. And, it is important for each of us to consider how we come across when discussing sensitive topics.

        As far as this discussion about religion….I think short answers to complex topics can lead to a reader’s misunderstanding as to where a poster is really coming from.

        I also feel that people who do not believe in God belittle to religious experience of those people who DO believe in God and have been moved by such spiritual experience. It is like never swimming and then telling people what swimming is all about.

        It is offensive for a believer to hear a comment from a non-believer such as that made by mountainmanpat that “Religion is believing another’s delusions.”

        His comment really isn’t what I would expect from Pat because I know that Pat really is tolerant and believes in “different strokes for different folks.”

        And to you, Pat…. no one is denying that bad people have misused religion and led people astray for such reasons as greed, politics and hate + there have been crazed religious leaders.

        As far as the religion of Christianity is concerned, Jesus himself said to beware of FALSE prophets. However, Jesus never said to give up ones true belief in God and ones faith life just because false prophets exist.

        We also have to be aware that people within a given religion as individuals choose to emphasize different parts of that given religion and even have different interpretations of the teachings of that given religion.

        For instance, within the Christian religion, some followers emphasize salvation and repentance…….some, morals………and some place emphasis on helping the poor and the needy.

        I personally choose to emphasis the teachings that speak to the life of helping others.

        I think in the world today, we need fewer extremists and more religious tolerance. And of course, people acting out of love are a blessing to the world.

        • Xena says:


          Xena, I think you expressed yourself very well. And, it is important for each of us to consider how we come across when discussing sensitive topics.

          Thank you. As you can see, I stayed out of the discussion about religion. But then, it came to a point where I felt I needed to speak up. I don’t mind anyone saying that they are an unbeliever, but to call believers delusional and place all believers in a pot smells too much like prejudice. Pat has a good heart and hope he does return.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Correction —should be :

        I also feel that people who do not believe in God SHOULD NOT belittle THE religious experience of those people who do believe in God

        • cielo62 says:

          YAHTC~ I can’t speak directly for MMP, but I’ve noticed that christians think NOTHING of belittling all non believers. Sometimes it’s hard to maintain an upper moral hand when all you hear is condemnation. I practice Wicca. Yep, I’m a witch (but a good witch, like Glenda). The history that Christianity has with Wicca is brutal, hate-filled and bloody. Even today people have a total misunderstanding what basic Wicca is about. Let me give you a clue: there is no Satan in our religion, hence no devils to worship. And yet that it THE NUMBER ONE accusation leveled at Wicca.   I know this sounds trite, but I have atheist friends. I have asked many times about that, and it boils down to not being able to reconcile evil in the world and so-called omnipotent god. Hence there is no god. In response to this, many Christians resort to name-calling, questioning one’s intelligence or upbringing, or, the one I hate the most, “you are in league with Satan.”   I’m a tolerant person, EXCEPT for the extremists. I have no respect for fundamentalist Christians, and I think they are totally misguided fools. It seems that they strees everything that is NEGATIVE in the bible, all the “Thou shalt nots”. Fine. If they want to be miserable, OK. But they have a tendencey as a group to want to enforce their miserable world view on the rest of us. And THAT is where I draw the line. I will NOT pray in school or anywhere else. I will NOT say Merry Christmas in case I’m addressing a non believer, and I will NOT leave my spouse of 20 years just because she’s also a woman like me. Again, I can’t speak for MMP, but usually when I speak against Christianity, I am addressing the fundies and not the moderate believers. As I said somewhere on this blog, if Christianity makes people be better people, with each other and with themselves, then I am all for it. But once it’s used a weapon to hurt, demean, enslave or belittle others, I will speak out against it. If you think that a God that created so much goodness and beauty wants you to live a life of misery, then yes, you are delusional. And I will not believe in that delusion.   PS I think MMP was making a joke with his quote about believing in other people’s fantasy as being delusional. That was a quote from Mark Twain, another well known atheist.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        You are welcome, Xena. And, I think it was very good that you did speak up.

        I agree with you that Pat has a good heart.

        And, you are a wonderful person, Xena, my friend.


      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Yes, Cielo.

        Believers should not belittle nor force their belief on non-believers…….. and non-believers should not belittle or force their viewpoint on believers.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I agree that evil has been committed by Christian church organizations and their followers.

        However, let’s emphasize that those churches and religious people were NOT following Jesus’ teachings of love, forgiveness, tolerance, etc.

        These religious people COMPLETELY broke away from the teachings of Jesus yet claimed that it was in the name of Christianity.

        Here is a car analogy for clarification:

        Whoever is behind the steering wheel can affect the outcome of the “ride”.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        For emphasis—-

        The historical killing of non-believers was evil and totally against all of Jesus’s teachings.

      • groans says:

        Wow. A lot has happened here.

        I think we may be at the point where we should hold hands, sing Kumbabya – and then all carry on together towards our common goa(s).

        [But then again, y’all are probably WAY finished with all that, and are onto a couple new pages I haven’t even gotten to yet ………..]

        • cielo62 says:

          Oh goodness Groans! NOT kumbay!  🙂   yes, that was a series of discussions I feel best left on the floor. It detracts more than it unites.   BTW Happy MLK Jr DDay!!   I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.”

  20. elcymoo says:

    You all have thoughtful comments says:
    January 18, 2013 at 5:41 pm
    “Zimmerman attorneys: We want ABC News notes, audio
    The issue is what Trayvon Martin’s girlfriend told their staffers.”


    So the ‘issue’ isn’t the quality of the tape, after all, but perhaps a fishing expedition to find out as much as possible about DeeDee’s personal information? Would notes taken by staffers be admissible unless they included direct quotes taken under oath?

    • groans says:

      Another poorly-written OS article! Jumps from discussing one phone conversation to discussing a completely different conversation without any transition. SMH, again.

      • blushedbrown says:

        YES! I caught that also. The people who read that,who have no reading comprehension skills, (CTH) will think it is all one subject.
        SMH, twice.

      • Malisha says:

        I am kind of shocked that the journalists cannot use ordinary good English grammar, do not follow any standard form in reporting events (with respect to paragraph structure, logical progressions, etc.), and pick and choose items for their articles that skip huge significant areas while concentrating on irrelevancies and doubtful claptrap. When I was in high school I was chosen to go to the annual Columbia (University) press conference and two things impressed me on that trip: (1) Hotels in New York were extremely luxurious and insanely expensive; and (2) journalism was a very exacting job and in order to become a journalist, you had to be very studious, very devoted, and a flawless writer. Part (1) is still true.

  21. Malisha says:

    Here’s how the defense would have it:

    Trayvon was born into a depraved family where his mother insisted upon being a single mom and his father drove around impregnating women all over the place. The kid went to school to learn how to commit petty crime and practiced constantly. He put up videos of himself advertising his intention to murder white people for no good reason. He slaughtered bus drivers, stole vehicles, burglarized homes, raped girls, sold and took drugs, and terrorized Miami Gardens until he was sent up to his father’s gated community for a week. During that week and especially on the Sunday coming at the end of that week, he skipped to the 7-11 to meet with some gang members and buy contraband, after which he skipped back home stopping off to break into parked cars or perhaps it was cars that were driving by him as he skipped. Then he spotted Fogen and decided not to kill him. In fact, the ONLY TIME IN HIS LIFE that Trayvon Martin was not engaged full-time in crime was during his brief skipping episode (after being “up to no good” under the mail shed for a few minutes) between the T and Brandi Green’s house. During those few minutes of non-criminal activity, just by coincidence, Fogen was looking for an address. But Trayvon Martin’s non-criminal episode upper limit was 2 minutes and 40 seconds so he had to attack Fogen, which he did without making contact from the back of his hands to any part of Fogen’s battered and half-dead body. Fogen then ended Trayvon’s crime spree by being forced to shoot him, after which Fogen was sorry that Trayvon’s parents had to bury him.

    • Donna Flores says:

      The Zim cult is being ruthless in the comments…

    • Jun says:

      There’s nothing written in the article alleging any car break ins though

      I also noticed now that they changed the defendant’s story once again, and now the defendant is claiming to have been attacked from behind LOL

      How many stories and lies is the defendant going to tell?

    • cielo62 says:

      Thanks Donna! I went over there and yanked some chains! Look for a white cat with a pointy hat on; that’s my Facebook avatar.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      The Kohl’s and Sam’s Club tapes are worthless, since TM wasn’t in the area long enough to do any thing that wasn’t accounted for by the 711 tapes. [let’s just call them all “tapes” for simplicity].

      The tapes at the apartments can possibly be used to show that TM did come that way, and therefore may have use the FT cut through, but the problem there is, since cctv’s are notoriously off time, some method of referencing the real time is needed. If that fails those tapes are useless, no matter what they show. Getting a time reference is no small matter, IIRC tchoupi and Trent Sawyer spent nearly 30 hours of viewing each to capture a reference that showed the cctv times were 18 minutes off.

      …And, that was with police and fire arrivals as reference data point to work backwards from. I doubt there’s anything like those events at the apartments, So it would probably take even more time of highly skilled analysts. Any professional who reads the papers, will probably demand a large retainer or deposit before they agree to do any work for the defense. There will be no more handshakes with O’Mara on start of work and payment issues.

      This is where GZ is going to feel the squeeze of having wasted so much money on security that wasn’t needed.

      • blushedbrown says:


        I am going to disagree with you on the tapes are worthless. Here’s why, someone from the FDLE wrote a report that the Clubhouse tapes had no evidentiary value as well as the other tapes.

        That statement from FDLE was incorrect, imo.

        As you also stated about the “clubhouse” tapes after being carefully scrutinized by Tchocpi, and Whonoze, they did find alot of information from those tapes. FDLE just didn’t take the amount of time that they did in reviewing. They (BccList) pinpointed 6 cars coming in and out in a specific time frame. They concluded times of arrival of EMT, and LE. Even down to the amount of rain that day. Amongst other things.

        We were not priveleged with those tapes in discovery, so we don’t know what is on them. IMO, just because an agent from FDLE says it didn’t have information that he couldn’t glean, doesn’t mean that there isn’t. JMO.

        The squeeze is in. I agree with that.

      • Xena says:

        @Lonnie Starr

        The tapes at the apartments can possibly be used to show that TM did come that way, and therefore may have use the FT cut through, but the problem there is, since cctv’s are notoriously off time, some method of referencing the real time is needed.

        In discovery is a report by either FDLE or the feds where they wrote obtaining the tapes of the apartments. Then in one of Dave’s videos with Taaffe, Dave mentions that the FBI believed that Trayvon did not enter R@TL using the cut-through by Taaffe’s house.

        The immunity hearing is going to be very interesting hearing the facts presented.

      • groans says:

        @Lonnie – you said: “The Kohl’s and Sam’s Club tapes are worthless, since TM wasn’t in the area long enough to do any thing that wasn’t accounted for by the 711 tapes.”

        What do you mean by that, please? Are you excluding the possibility that the Kohl’s and Sam’s Club tapes could have been from a different date or time than Trayvon’s trip to the 711? Or that they might have some other purpose or significance for the case?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Well, the SP went out collecting the tapes for that day. I sincerely doubt that they were collecting tapes for that week or that month.
          On that day, TM went to 711, spent about 7 or so minutes there, then headed back east to go home. So, unless they are looking at GZ or Shelly or MO or someone else like FT and such, then there’s nothing relevant on those tapes. Most of what’s captured on these kinds of tape is difficult to interpret as it is.

          So, without those tapes showing anything that TM did, it’s unlikely in the extreme that they’re going to contain anything exculpatory for the defense to use.

      • cielo62 says:

        Lonnie~ realistically, those tapes cannot show ANYTHING that could save GZs bacon. Let’s say for fun that Trayvon had indeed attempted to break into a car on his way to or from the 7-11. HOW would GZ even know that? He never mentioned that in his NEN call. It would definitely have been more of a feather in his cap if he said that he was cornering an attempted car-jacker. At the end of the day, GZ STILL had NO reason to be following Trayvon and confronting him. It’s just another fishing expedition for money from stupid followers.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Believe me, anyone with a propensity for breaking into cars, is not going to do it on a rainy Sunday night with skittles and iced tea on hand. TM has been at RATL for six days now and this is his first trip to the store. His dad keeps with enough money that he doesn’t have to steal to get things he wants and his wants are for pretty darned little. With a game coming on I’d have been looking for pretzels or chips and dips, buffalo wings or a slice or two. All he gets is iced tea. It’s almost as if he didn’t even want to go to the store at all for himself. It seems more like he was keeping a meeting, than going to the store for the trip.

          The timing of this lone trip after 6 days of nothing, makes me thing he was set up, lured from the house somehow, than that he just suddenly upped and decided on this one trip to the store where he gets killed coming back. The odds of that are even lower than getting struck by lightening, for that community.

  22. Donna Flores says:

    There’s 3 tapes, one from Sam’s club, Kohl’s and some from apartment complex, I have no idea what MOM is up to. I don’t believe any of it!!

    • Jun says:

      They are tapes the state gave to him. They already concluded Trayvon was not doing anything out of the ordinary. Whether or not, Trayvon allegedly broke into cars, it still does not prove that his client acted in self defense. If the defendant wants to claim that, that would mean, the defendant was lying about spotting the victim at the complex and actually began stalking him long before that. Besides, Trayvon never did any of those car breaking allegations, there’s no evidence of it occurring and it simply did not occur. I am going to take a wild guess and say that it was David Piercy, Annette, or Joe Perello accounts on facebook making these allegations.

      • whonoze says:

        “Whether or not Trayvon allegedly broke into cars, it still does not prove that his client acted in self defense.”


      • Xena says:

        Because this thread has gotten long and slow, I’m going to embed Dave’s video that provides the road to the 7-Eleven on the Monday open post. Clearly, there is no opportunity for anyone to break into cars on that road, as there is no place for cars to park.

        Rather than entertaining the latest unsupported Zidiots’ theory, let’s look at facts and use some common sense. The latest Zidiot theory is nothing more than a deflection from Junior’s association with White Supremacists.


      • Xena says:

        Sorry, Dave’s video is embedded at

        There is barely anything posted on that thread, making it a good place to move discussions unassociated with hating the Fogen.

      • seallison says:

        Thanks Xena, I have moved over there and it is so much faster.

      • Dennis says:

        Since these people are making false allegations about Trayvon, is it possible for the Martin family to sue them for libel or slander on behalf of Trayvon since he is deceased?

        • Xena says:

          Actually Dennis, two can play the game about the casing cars deal. Here’s the story. GZ was behind in his car payments. His car was due to be repossessed on March 1st. GZ couldn’t use his regular boys to case out a car for him, and he knew Trayvon would only be there until the 27th of Feb., so he gave Trayvon $50 to case a car.

          Trayvon, not being a thug, really didn’t know what or how to do it, Trayvon went to the 7-Eleven and after paying for Skittles and iced tea, realized that in the 6 days he had been at R@TL, that he had spent $10 of the money, so he called GZ and told him that he found a car. (That is actually who Trayvon is talking to on his cell phone in the 7-Eleven.)

          However, when GZ arrived to where Trayvon said the car was, there was no Trayvon. GZ then drove back to R@TL to search for Trayvon. He gave NEN a cop set-up call justifying a “good shoot,” and then cornered Trayvon asking where the car was. That is why we hear Trayvon say “I don’t know.”

          This is the response to the Zidiots’ “casing cars” theory. See how they handle that.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena~ As a friend of mine used to tell her students, “you watch too much TV!” I know it doesn’t matter to the CTH gang but I’d like to remind THEM (cuz we already know) that there is no evidence that those 2 even knew each other. That GZ is capable of Grand Theft Auto (and I don’t mean the video game) is pretty obvious. But messing up a carjacking deal is STILL no justification for murder.

          • Xena says:


            That GZ is capable of Grand Theft Auto (and I don’t mean the video game) is pretty obvious. But messing up a carjacking deal is STILL no justification for murder.

            Haha! You get the point.

    • groans says:

      If you don’t know and share your source of this information, it’s kind of hard to assess or discuss the substance.

      Also, I don’t know that the defense has submitted any “evidence list” yet – let alone a “new” one. Has anyone else seen any defense evidence list?

  23. Donna Flores says:

    I read on a site somewhere that on the new evidence list released by the defense, that there is an 8 minutes videio of the walk Trayvon took to the 711 and back.
    He supposedly was trying to open car doors to break into. Has anyone else heard anything about this?

    • Jun says:

      I am going take a wild guess and say it is from Fogenhats’ cult that made that allegation

      It takes 40 or more minutes to walk to and from the 711 and the Trayvon’s home

      Trayvon only had skittles, ice tea, $40, and a cell phone with heart stickers

      So you do the math

      Unless they have authenticated footage, than I would not take that allegation serious at all

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        You are so right about that, jun, and if they say he did it in 8 minutes, he would have been running the whole time.

    • Xena says:

      What cars? Have you looked at the map of the area? It’s a road with ditches on both sides. Cars cannot park on that road.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Which site was that?

      • Jun says:

        It is either of these facebook users

        (1) David Piercy
        (2) Joe Perello
        (3) Annette Kelly

        They have been trying to spread that rumor, which has no truth to it, since the beginning of the incident

      • Xena says:

        Re: Donna’s comment, that there is an 8 minutes videio of the walk Trayvon took to the 711 and back.

        Common sense — if there is such a video, it could only have been taken by the person stalking Trayvon.

      • Dennis says:


        Victor Wright is another racist guy that constantly supports Fogen on the HLN articles. His constant quote is “they don’t have anything on him”. The guy is obviously braindead since he can’t even decipher the countless number of lies Fogen has told. Lying is consciousness of guilt. If you are innocent, there is no reason to lie.

        Fogen may have been able to get this case thrown out, or ultimately acquitted, had he kept his dumb mouth closed. I’ve heard people on Cops tell better lies than that idiot did.

      • Jun says:

        This is a case where it is beyond a shadow of a doubt the defendant killed the kid. The defendant is using an affirmative defense. If anyone can not see that there is probable cause to believe a murder took place, they really need to go back to school, as a huge part of murder is, get this, “KILLING SOMEONE” and self defense is simply an affirmative defense in court, so Fogenhats has to prove that, no matter what the rules say. The case is fairly cut and paste… the defendant targeted, stalked, profiled, chased, terrorized, threatened, confronted, and attacked and killed a kid.

    • Rachael says:

      If that were remotely true, it only shows me more how stupid GZ wasfor getting out of his car when he saw someone “suspicious.” It makes it even more obvious to me that by getting out of his vehicle to follow, he did so with the intent to find/detain Trayvon and it is more reasonable than not that shooting Trayvon and killing him would occur. A reasonable person would not do such a thing.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Most especially a reasonable person who had already explained to Serino, that the reason they failed to identify themselves, when the “suspect”, “brazenly” walked up to GZ’s truck and asked why he was following him. To which GZ replied that he wasn’t following and rolled his window back up. Serino asked why he did that, and GZ replied that he did so because he was scared! Wow, eh?

      • pat deadder says:

        I ‘ve been thinking I believe fogen got upset when the dispatcher told him ‘we don’t need you to do that’ his demenor changed.I think he expected some other response.As well I think he cut through the townhouses on the same side where his truck was parked since he knew where Trayvon had gone he went nowhere near the T.and i’m sure he had Trayvon in sight just before he hung up so quickly.Only 2 mins. passed from the end of the call until he killed Trayvon.I turned on my microwave to 2min couldn’t even wash all my dishes god.Tomorrow I’m buying a stop watch going in the dark to get a concept of what can happen in 2min i.noticed during one of fogen and Shelly’s jail house calls she questioned him about why he thought she couldn’t do a certain task and she knew when he answered to change the subject.I lived with an abusive husband for 25 years and did exactly the same thing.you all are the best.

    • blushedbrown says:

      Link please to this video of 8 minutes.
      Car rumors? Source please?

    • Xena says:

      @LLMPapa. Admittedly, I have a problem wrapping my head around Junior’s diatribes about race. The State’s murder 2 case against GZ is not about race, so what is Junior’s problem? The best I could figure is that he’s doing it in effort to get more donations, but that doesn’t appear to be working well.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      LOL, LLMPapa. “Isn’t twitter fun?”

    • This gets more bizarre by the day…..That’s 4 court cases he has going currently.

      1. Murder 2 (defendant)
      2. Civil action for unpaid monies (defendant)
      3. Suit against NBC (Plaintiff)
      4. Suit against ABC (Plaintiff)

      What next?

    • cielo62 says:

      LOL! What? NBC isn’t juicy enough? What a peabrain!

      • Xena says:

        GZ is not suing ABC. The subpoena was served on ABC under the criminal case. They want the taped interview that Matt Gutman said he conducted with DeeDee.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        “Zimmerman attorneys: We want ABC News notes, audio
        The issue is what Trayvon Martin’s girlfriend told their staffers.”


      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        from that Orlando Sentinel article:

        “Also Friday, defense attorneys gave official notice to prosecutors of 15 new pieces of evidence they plan to use.

        “None appears to be a blockbuster. Instead, the list is mostly police and FDLE records that appear to be the equivalent of fine print, for example a subpoena request by a FDLE agent for Trayvon Martin’s phone records and a letter former State Attorney Norm Wolfinger wrote to FDLE, asking its help.

        “The list also includes four pieces of video, three of them surveillance video from retail stores, parking lots or apartments, the fourth of Zimmerman being arrested by FDLE agents in Jacksonville on April 11.

        “It’s not clear what their evidentiary value is.”

        • cielo62 says:

          Ah! I see where this parking lot surveillance video is going! More innuendo that Trayvon was a petty car thief! As grainy as alot of those are I’d be surprised if you could positively identify Trayvon from them.

          Sent from my iPod

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        What a joke……….they try that and de la Rionda should quote gz’s 2005 MySpace:

        [[[ “I dont miss driving around scared to hit mexicans walkin on the side of the street,

        soft ass wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they aint around

        (what are you provin, that you can dent a car when no ones watchin) dont make you a man in my book.”]]]]

      • Jun says:

        Guttman does have a recording he aired on TV but…

        what is it gonna prove?

        Aha, Deedee said the same thing as in the other 2 interviews, that Fogenhats was targeting and stalking the victim, chased the victim, caught the victim, confronted the victim, and then attacked the victim?


    • Xena says:

      It’s not a suit against ABC News. Evidently, O’Mara found no discrepancies or nothing to complain about with attorney Crump’s tape of his interview of DeeDee. So, O’Mara now wants the recording that Matt Gutman made of that interview and any other interviews that he had with DeeDee. The defense’s effort regarding DeeDee’s statements clearly conveys that they have a deep fear of her being a witness.

      What I am wondering is if any interview of DeeDee other than the sworn statement given to the State, is admissible at trial. When the professor returns, maybe he can address this.

      • whonoze says:

        Well, the Defense certainly wouldn’t be doing it’s job if they weren’t concerned about DeeDee, and if they weren’t pursing every piece of evidence relating to her account of her conversation with Trayvon during the events leading up to the shooting.

        In the Prof.s absence let me guess at the answer of the admissibility question. If the prosecution calls DeeDee as a witness, then i would assume any sworn statements she made to anybody would be admissible as part of the cross-examination, or in support of an argument regarding her credibility. But I’m guessing they wouldn’t be admissible on their own if she does not testify. (We’ll see if I got it right when the Prof. returns…)

        I shall also take a stab at what I think a comparison of the BdlR interview with an audible version of the Crump interview would show: not discrepancies but rather a similarity that may call attention to itself. That is, her testimony is SO much alike, down to the phrasing, the few minute details she does mention, and the general vagueness about everything else, that it will appear to have been rehearsed, and perhaps “coached.” Of course, all witnesses are coached before trial, and making preparations about what you are going to to say in no way indicates that you are lying. And FWIW, I highly doubt Mr. Crump or any other attorneys had anything to do with any preparations or rehearsals DeeDee may have made. My speculation is that if she was “coached” in any way, it was by Sabrina Fulton. (Among other things, DeeDee apparently spoke to Crump from Fulton’s home, and Fulton was present at the time.)

      • Jun says:

        Whatever was aired of Deedee was the exact same story that she has testified. Deedee’s testimony is also supported by witness 18’s testimony, as she testifies to seeing Fogenhats confront Trayvon and that the “younger boy” was the one screaming for help. Witness 18 can also pinpoint how the struggle moved from the sidewalk to the grass.

        I dont feel Deedee was coached, because she was interviewed numerous times on the crappy Crump recording, and with Bernie, and her story remains the same, and is supported by other evidence on scene and witnesses. Generally lies change over time because you are not going off of memory of what happened, and that is how discrepancies happen. Deedee was also completely unaware of what was on scene as evidence at the time, and for her to be supported by on scene evidence and witness 18, tells me she is truthful.

      • whonoze says:


        What part of “making preparations about what you are going to to say in no way indicates that you are lying” don’t you understand?

      • Jun says:

        I understand what you wrote

        I just do not feel she was coached at all, which is what you were alleging

        Yes i know even if someone prepares, it does not necessarily mean they are lying

        If she was coached, there would have been drastic changes in her two statements, the one to Crump and the one to Bernie, yet they are considerably similar

      • groans says:

        Geez, Whonoze. Why the snarl back at Jun? Take a deep breath.

        I think your speculation about coaching in general, and by Sybrina in particular is just that – speculation. Jun’s reply sounds more reasonable, to me.

  24. Tzar says:

    where is the Professor?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I have been wondering about that, Tzar. At the top of the page he had only said that he would be “traveling most of the day.”

      I have been concerned…..I hope he is okay.

    • YAHTC:

      Snow’s disappearing…..some big bare patches now………also having a heat wave…..in the 40’s yesterday and thru the weekend……..Last weekend?….high’s in the teens and a low of -10 😐

  25. Hey folks….just readin’ the news and came across this….a white supremacist….with a felony conviction for manslaughter, which he did time for……Just got busted with an arsenal of weapons, including assault rifles, hand guns & 40,000 rounds of ammo!!!!!!!!!!

    My point is the old “If guns are outlawed….only outlaws will have guns”……..How much cocaine is sold in this country?….and they can’t get a handle on that !!!!! 13% of motorists are driving without liability insurance….Laws are only respected by honest people….one wants to break those laws?…They do.

    Anyway…here’s the link….Ya’ll have a good night and a better tomorrow 🙂


    • Jun says:

      An easy way to get those weapons, is simply him getting a friend of his who does not have anything on his record, to but the weapons for him, and then simply give it to him


      He robbed a gun shop


      they are black market weapons

    • Tzar says:

      what about if guns are not made?

      • Then they will be smuggled in……any source is possible

        • Tzar says:

          I disagree with comparing the smuggling of consumables the usefulness of which destroys their evidence and hence their criminality with non-consumables who’s usefulness reveals their existence and hence exposes their criminality.

          I know that is a mouthful but I had no coffee this morning

          • then explain how people get busted with rocket launchers?

            Your facts on Japan & Britain are true……Now go check the gun laws of Switzerland…….and the number of firearms there……and their crime rates are just as low.

            I believe in responsible gun ownership…….I live in the Rockie mountains……last summer and fall I had a Bear breaking into one of the sheds repeatedly….and even tried to claw open the cabin door.

            Colorado is an “open carry” state….meaning if you’re legally allowed to own firearms…..then you can walk around with pretty much any weapon you want….as long as it’s visible.

            And please don’t bring up the Aurora theater murders.

            Notice also that most of the murders in this country are in cities…NOT rural areas…..

          • Tzar says:

            my data supersedes your data

          • I see we disagree on gun ownership & gun rights.

            Can we just leave it and that? Respectfully disagree with each others viewpoints?

            BTW, most of the firearms I own are what is classified as “primitive weapons”….muzzle loaders burning black powder….I also do the mountain man rendezvous….Take a close look at my avatar….A .50 cal. half stocked Hawken rifle…..Civil war and prior type weapons. I own no assault type weapons, and there’s only one modern handgun in the cabin.

          • cielo62 says:

            I got you beat, mountainmanpat~ All I got is a Water Pistol!  LOL! ROTFLMBO! NOW, we can talk about my SWORD and dagger collection! Awesome stuff! Pointy and sharp, and you have to get in close to do any damage! The weapon of a vicious SOB.

          • Have I mentioned among other things I make out of stuff found in the forest….I make knife blades out of bone…….Making my grandson a back scratcher from a stick and a piece of a Deer jawbone WITH TEETH…… 🙂

          • cielo62 says:

            You be a man after my own heart! I had a co-worker whose father made beautiful things from natural reclaimed wood and naturally shed antlers and bits of polished bone. I have 2 pens he made from heather wood and polished antler. I also have a pointing stick made from a beautiful (but unknown type) of wood, an antler handle and a polished bone pointed end.

              Some people have such interesting talents! But then again, there are people like me to appreciate them!  🙂

          • Tzar says:

            Peace out
            have a good one!

          • Tzar says:


            The numbers in the chart above are from the Small Arms Survey. The project gives high and low estimates, along with an average. We used the average numbers. They show the U.S. with 88.8 guns for every 100 people. That’s No. 1 in the gun ownership rate in the world. Switzerland, with 45.7 guns per 100 people, is No. 3 in the world, with nearly half the rate of the U.S. Switzerland also requires military service. (Yemen is No. 2, with 54.8 guns per 100 people.)

            Janet Rosenbaum, an assistant professor of epidemiology at the School of Public Health at the State University of New York Downstate Medical Center School, told the Washington Post that “Switzerland has also been moving away from having widespread guns,” and moving away from having those in the army keep guns at home.

            The Small Arms Survey acknowledges that its numbers are approximations and making these estimates is far from an exact science. In addition to surveys, it relies on gun registration, experts, other indicators such as firearm suicides, and comparisons to similar countries. It says: “All gun numbers—even those that seem most accurate—approximate reality or reveal only part of it. They should be used with caution.”

            The firearms homicide rate, and homicide rate overall, is also higher in the U.S. than other advanced countries, such as Canada, Australia and those in Europe, according to data from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. The U.S. gun homicide rate was 3.2 per every 100,000 people in 2010, according to UNODC figures. The UNODC measures “intentional homicide,” which is “an unlawful death purposefully inflicted on a person by another person.”

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Oh, I am so glad you are back, Tzar. A lot has been going on.

        Have a great weekend!

        • Tzar says:

          [QUOTE=tmonster;7908454]this is even better
          how the NRA fucks America
          part 1

          part 2

          Thank you YAHTC
          It’s great to “see” you too. PS what did I miss?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Good morning, mountainmanpat.

        How’s the snow?

      • Tzar says:

        Besides look at Japan and the UK
        the banning of guns has been effective and smuggling has not affected that

      • Jun says:

        Guns are needed, but there needs to be some form of control on them, and that is also why they need to cut into illegal firearms dealing.

  26. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    All of the following is from “The Daytona Beach News-Journal:

    Martin Luther King Jr. remembered at annual Daytona banquet
    Trayvon Martin’s parents present scholarship in son’s name

    By Eileen Zaffiro-Kean STAFF WRITER Published: Thursday, January 17, 2013 at 10:00 p.m.

    DAYTONA BEACH — Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. has been gone from the world for nearly 45 years, but he most definitely was not forgotten inside a large hotel banquet room Thursday night.
    “With so much violence and so many senseless deaths, now more than ever we have to remember Dr. King’s message of peace, equality and above all love,” said Tallahassee-based attorney Benjamin Crump, the keynote speaker at Daytona Beach’s annual banquet honoring King at the Hilton Daytona Beach Oceanfront Resort.
    Two days after what would have been King’s 84th birthday, more than 300 people listened to Crump explain how people such as Mother Teresa lived King’s words about unconditional love, character, endurance and service.
    “We pray that the message of Martin Luther King will resonate now more than ever,” Crump said.
    Also very much on the minds of those gathered at the King celebration was Trayvon Martin, the unarmed teenager killed in Sanford nearly a year ago by neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman. Crump is the attorney for Martin’s parents, who were at the banquet to present a $1,000 scholarship award to a local high school senior in their son’s name.
    That scholarship recipient is Sylvester Covington III, a student at Atlantic High School in Port Orange who plans to attend the University of Central Florida in the fall and begin working toward his goal of becoming a psychologist.
    “It means a great deal to me representing Trayvon like this,” Covington said in an interview before the banquet got under way. “What happened to him wasn’t just. … I hope us being here means he’s gone but never forgotten.”
    Covington’s mother, Melissa, said Martin’s parents “lost their son but they’re gaining all the youth under his name.”

  27. Malisha says:

    Jun, guys who are as brave as Fogen need a car, a flashlight, a gun, and then a whole police force to back them up when they want to kill an unarmed candy-bearing kid. AND they need medications to keep their irritable bowel syndrome under control while they do it. IBS, with which Fogen has been diagnosed, causes a person to accidentally soil himself when he becomes stressed. So either (a) it didn’t stress Fogen to be beaten nearly to death and then have to kill someone; or (b) that’s why they didn’t take his pants for forensic testing that night; or (c) some third explanation. But one thing we can assume, at this point: Fogen is not big on personal physical courage. I’ve done better in extreme circumstances (Detroit, summer after the “Long Hot Summer,” knife) than Fogen did, and didn’t cry and whine as much about it.

    That’s why we hear so much rage and hatred from the Fogen camp: they feel threatened; they feel outdone; they feel threatened; they feel inadequate; they feel afraid, ALL THE DAMN TIME, constantly. In their talk, they’re out there with their big guns protecting the world from thugs; in their real lives, they’re cowering in closets and shooting at puppy dogs and unarmed kids and arming themselves to the teeth to calm their persistent pee-pee-pants panic.

    • Jun says:

      I get that from them. They are cowards. I am not a tough guy myself but even I have more cohones than them LOL. But at the same time, I believe they are evil and conniving people who also manipulate and use violence. They are the type of predators who will attack a defenseless kid, dog, woman, etc. They are cowards and predators in a combination.

  28. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Is the HOA a sub-entity of Leland Real Estate Management?

    The reason I ask is because….. in the HOA newsletter… each HOA board member’s address is listed as the Leland address.

    • seallison says:

      I think it must be sorta like some condo. associations. The condo owners are the association and the Management company is probably hired by the owners to maintain the grounds, etc. Could be wrong. In condos, the owners pay a monthly fee for upkeep, etc. So, the committee votes on what money will go where.

  29. Jun says:


    What do you know, RZ Junior, the half latino, did an interview for a white supremacist organization. Well at least that is what they claim (Nazi’s usually use a lot of propaganda and lies, so I do not know how much truth is to this interview)

    • Rachael says:

      Goodgod that logo/picture whatever you call it for that site is eeerrrryyyyy!!!!

      • Xena says:

        @Rachael. That’s what I’ve been saying. If those who support GZ believe that Trayvon deserved to die because of his race, then they confirm that GZ committed a hate-crime.

      • Rachael says:

        Oh Xena, I’ve never disagreed with that. oh but that site gave me bad kind of chills. I never want to see that again!!! OMG!!

      • Jun says:

        Aryan Nation is simply a gang nowadays. They work with the Mexican Mafia in prison, and conduct hits, sell drugs, and even their leader is a Jewish guy. They use the racist propaganda to simply gain soldiers for the gang.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        jun……speaking only for myself…..I have a negative reaction to seeing this kind of stuff posted here, and that is why I do not plan to click on your link above or this video.

      • Jun says:

        That is cool if you do not want to visit the links but it is reality

        Not a nice reality but it is reality

        Some of the people who support the defendant are actually racists

      • seallison says:

        Jun – I know a few places where there is training in Vancouver and the best one is provided by the Human Rights Commission. Check it out. The name of the course is Sensitivity and Respect. It may be worth your while. It costs nothing.

      • Jun says:

        I don’t need any sensitivity or respect training. Thanks anyways.

      • Rachael says:

        @Jun – You say: “They use the racist propaganda to simply gain soldiers for the gang.”

        What does that mean? That they don’t really believe that, they just want to attract people who do? And somehow that is okay?

        Sorry, but I don’t understand and I don’t really see the difference and saying “and even their leader is a Jewish guy” doesn’t make it any easier for me to comprehend. Sounds like “Some of my best friends are Jewish.”

        Sorry, but whatever you are saying is just not clear to me.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I guess we haven’t seen enough of their tactics to realize the fraud in the words. Doesn’t GZ say that he’s not a racist? His Hispanic heritage proves it? So Aryan Brotherhood isn’t racist either right? They just use racism as a way to attract members? Right, they lost their camp at Hayden lake because they attacked a black man and a white woman who made out in front of their gate, then sued the bejeezeus out of them. Even preventing them from using their old “Aryan Nation” name.

          They know their numbers are small and that what they are preaching and stand for is so objectionable to the nation as a whole, they’d be voted off the face of the earth if they tried to stand against the winds. So, like the KKK’s “invisible empire” they hide behind all manner of camouflage.

          I can easily see GZ, a weak and ineffective person, yet enamored of his own greatness, being led to undertake an initiation as a way to join “the big boys”. Racists are losing power everywhere they’re discovered, now the life long reign of Wolfinger is over. So they’ve lost another spoke from their wheel. But the wheel is still there and there are still many more spokes.

          • cielo62 says:

            Lonnie~ I have thought “initiation” almost as long as you, but I just don’t see enough provable evidence to support it outside of this blog. In any case, it’s just one more failure on GZ resume. “Couldn’t join racist gang. Too stupid to kill the right kind of minority.”

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            It’s not something that would be easy to see, and without someone breaking, it would be almost impossible to prove. Because, all they would do is explain to him what they expected, provide some assistance in picking the target and steering him to it. Then they’d vanish or watch from a distance. There would be very little to no connection between them all, and even if there were some, they’d be easy to explain by alternative means.

            Good thing such evidence isn’t needed to get a conviction. But, my guess is, it must sting GZ to no end, to realize that the public knows he failed his initiation and was unable to join the disgusting group he was trying to get in good with. Also, GZ’s brazen lies have exposed them to scrutiny. They can’t even step towards GZ without raising eyebrows themselves.

            Finally, the FBI is collecting much more data, and maybe in the future if one of these people makes a false move, that information will come back to roast them good. Right now though, we are aware and alert, if additional material is uncovered, we’ll have a frame work to fit it into.

      • Jun says:

        Well according to federal investigation Rachel…

        They are simply a criminal organization that conducts crimes for business

        The racist propaganda is simply a charade to gain soldiers and what I meant by the fact that one of the leaders is Jewish, is the fact that typical Nazi propaganda places Jews, Asians, Latinos, Blacks, Gays, Transgender, Liberals, White people who associate with these groups, as less than human…


        The fact that their leader is Jewish goes against that ideal, and in fact, the leader has a star of david tattoo one one arm, and a Nazi swastika on the other arm (his ancestors are spinning in their graves right now), and is an example of their racist propaganda meaning nothing, and is simply used to blind their soldiers in their gang

        • @ Jun

          nazi swastika?…..The swastika was the unit insignia for the US 45th inf. div. until 1939 when they changed it to the Thunderbird…..The unit was made up in the southwest, AZ. NM. & Okla…..A lot of Native Americans in the unit to who the swastika was a good luck symbol.

      • Jun says:

        I am not saying it is okay for them to act the way they do

        I am simply showcasing their methods and operations of the Aryan Brotherhood gang

        I am just saying, that their usage of racist propaganda is to simply get their members riled up to fight, when in actuality their leaders are just common thugs about making money off of criminal enterprise

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          That’s just a lie to get everyone off their backs. They know they’re a small minority, if they had to fight a racist war, with today’s multiculturalism they’d lose, so they need a lie to shield themselves from intolerable national disgust. They’re trying to sever their ties to their history, so they can survive, because if they don’t they’re going to be beaten and vanish. Now is not the time to be fooled, we know the history, we know the tune, this is no time to stop the dance!

      • Jun says:



        It is all explained here

        The nazi’s had a specific type of swastika and because of them, there is evil associated with the symbol, and I agree there

      • Rachael says:

        Sorry Jun, I still don’t understand. Simply this, simply that but simply not this or that they just pretendbut are simply, simply simply.

        Sorry. simply don’t get i

        • cielo62 says:

          Rachael- the aryan brotherhood is a gang. It is not a religion. BUT they use hate like a religious mantra to get their stupid lower level gang punks to kill, steal and beat up others with a sense of righteous indignation. The upper leaders don’t care about the rhetoric. They want the money and power.

          Sent from my iPod

          • You know of what you speak Cielo……I just posted a damn near identical reply as yours…..
            saying the brotherhood is solely based on racism is like saying westboro baptist church is solely based on christianity…….

      • Dennis says:


        The swasitka predates the Nazi empire. The symbol can be found in the Hindu culture and also in the Temple of Bacchus.

        I was watching the Ancient Aliens show and they painted a rather interesting picture. Hitler believed that the white race was directly related to the ET gods and through that association had the right to rule the planet. He had his top people going around the planet trying to find ET technology that was documented by ancient civilizations. I have researched the topic extensively from statements of credible whistleblowers and I can say that without a doubt aliens have been visiting our planet.

      • aussie says:

        Jun is saying this Aryan Nation is just another gang. They don’t take their anti-semitism seriously as proven by the leader being Jewish. They only use white supremacy slogans to attract more foot soldiers into the gang, the aims of which are predominantly criminal in the ordinary sense of that word.

        That seems fairly simple to me.

        Re the swastika – there was originally nothing wrong with it in itself. And there are numerous versions of it, left and right hand, level and on an angle etc.

        The one we all now see as a symbol of oppression and racism is the one the Nazis used, BECAUSE they used it. The swastika was tarnished by that association and since the war has come to symbolise Nazi-type attitudes. No amount of claiming it is “actually historically” a good symbol will undo that. It is obvious that supremacists who use it DO intend the Nazi meaning of it. (And going by their general total ignorance, they’d not even know it had a different history and other uses).

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Sad, jun……..I am beginning to see a pattern here……

        The pattern seems to be that you can shove an offensive word OR an offensive symbol into a person’s face who IS sensitive and offended by it SIMPLY because that word or symbol has a different meaning to you.

        I feel anyone who is offended or hurt by such behavior would consider you to be insensitive and disrespectful.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        The Jewish leader of that Ayran gang for profit is depraved.

        To have the swastika tattooed on his body shows he is totally lacking in empathy for the six million Jewish men, women and children killed in the holocaust.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      • Rachael says:

        @cielo62 – yes, I get that they are a gang. I have NO idea how you came up with me thinking it was a religion. If I EVER gave that impression, I apologize!!!

        My point though is, even though the leaders of the gang don’t care about the rhetoric, the fact is, it does attract certain people so to say that the rhetoric does not matter is just, IMO, false. If it didn’t matter, they wouldn’t use it.

        • cielo62 says:

          Rachael~ the point is the rhetoric is for the FOLLOWERS. It doesn’t apply to the LEADERS. In the Middle Ages, the Church talked about abstinence and living simply, UNLESS you were a bishop! Then it was all fine food and wine and fancy homes!   And nobody said that anybody was condoning ANY criminal behavior. It’s pointing out that the Aryan Brotherhood is just like any other criminal gang organization. MONEY and POWER are gods; the anti-everything non-white rhetoric is just BS for the common soldiers to believe in. It attracts them and binds them and inspires them (like a religion) but the leaders don’t really care WHO gives them money or drugs. They can be black or Jewish or gays, doesn’t matter. MONEY and POWER are what they worship.

          • Cielo….I like your reference to the Middle Ages….Consider also the Crusades…..the church gave anyone that participated absolution of any sins committed while doing “gods” work.

            This included the slaughter of Jews in Europe while on their way to the holy land…..they were “christ killers” afterall.

            Sad to say it…..for the most part mankind….and it’s history pretty much disgusts me…..Rare today is a person with honesty, honor & respect.

          • Cielo….U got me to thinking……How much do U think westboro baptist takes in in donations from homophobes, the way fogen has with the racists?…They get to travel the country spreading their venom with tax payers dollars…..and hiding behind the first amendment…..I signed both petitions to have them labeled as a hate group & to have their tax exempt status removed.

            I actually felt sick when I read they were going to protest at the funerals of all those murdered children…..Wonder if they’re fogen supporters?

      • Rachael says:

        @aussie –

        You say: “Jun is saying this Aryan Nation is just another gang.” I get that.

        However, to say “they don’t their anti-semitism seriously as proven by the leader being Jewish. They only use white supremacy slogans to attract more foot soldiers into the gang, the aims of which are predominantly criminal in the ordinary sense of that word.” Is just hogwash.

        I understand you (and Jun) may believe that, but if that really were the case, they would not use that or try to attract that kind. It isn’t like there aren’t plenty of other gangs.

        And even if it WERE true, that doesn’t make it then okay to use that kind of racist antisemitic supremacy stuff.

        Maybe this is just a very sensitive subject to me, but I swear, it sounds like you guys are saying that because they say it but don’t really mean it, it is okay. Like if they just say shit but don’t do it, then it isn’t real, their rhetoric isn’t real.

        Sorry guys, but I have to totally disagree with you on this one. I see what you are saying, but I think you are WRONG!!!

        You are putting lipstick on a pig.

        • I believe it’s the aryan brotherhood and not the aryan nation he’s talking about……some members of the brotherhood have already been charged under the RICO laws…..not hate crimes.

          This does not make the vitriol the spew any less offensive….the fact remains, it’s about the money…..the racism is secondary to that…..they even deal with Black prison gangs in the sale and distribution of drugs.

      • Rachael says:

        Because if you differentiate it that way, how is it any different than that radio host where Jr. just was. You can say “Hey, they guy is a public figure, he says stuff just to get a rise. When he says that Nword deserved to die,” he is simply a radio talk host, not interested in the rhetoric. He just wants to get a rise out of his listeners. He’s simply a radio talk host.

      • Rachael says:

        Yes Pat, it is the Aryan Brotherhood – and I can understand how they can be charged under the RICO laws and not charged with hate crimes. Hate crimes are harder to charge with and then you get the whole freedom of speech thing going.

        I’m just saying.

        Ugggghhhh I’ve been up since 3. It is time to go in search of coffee.

        See y’all later.

      • Jun says:

        Cielo explained it better but yes exactly

        I am not saying what they are doing is okay, I am just saying that Nazi racial propaganda is simply brainwashing techniques for the lower level gang members to influence them kill, steal, rape, etc but in actuality, the organization is no different from any other gang

        I also do not get how this conversation is disrespectful at all or insensitive. They talk about Nazis and the like in school. I started this chat because I noticed that white supremacists are claiming that they interviewed Junior. I also stated that white supremacists also use a lot of propaganda and lies to brainwash their followers, so you cant really take everything they say as truth or at face value. I then posted a video of the Aryan Brotherhood in prison, in how they are using such tactics, to brainwash their foot soldiers. The video showed videos of members of the Aryan Brotherhood and how they are a criminal gang who just run as a gang. One of their enforcers, is a white and native American and he even says he did not want to join a hate group but the leaders told him they were just a gang involved in criminal enterprise, so he joined.

        Of course the AB leader is depraved, he is selling drugs and killing people for money with no emotion. He is also Jewish and he has a star of David tattoo, and a Nazi Swastika tattoo, which would cause his ancestors to spin in his grave.

        Then people began speaking about the swastika, and the fact of the matter is, it used to be a common symbol used worldwide, and the Nazis kind of ruined the symbol for people and some places have completely stopped using it altogether because of that.

        Of course the Holocaust was terrible. Not only were many Jews slaughtered, many Chinese & Philipinos were as well, by the imperial Japanese army who like the Nazis felt they were the superior race to the Chinese, Philipinos and other races, hence why the imperial Japanese army of ww2 killed and tortured many Chinese and Philipinos, and also American soldiers.

        So “You”, what do you want? So if any white supremacists support Junior and Fogen, we should not talk about it?

      • Rachael says:

        @Jun:”So if any white supremacists support Junior and Fogen, we should not talk about it?”

        So now they ARE white supremacists? You just spent a good portion of this thread telling me they are NOT white supremacists, they are “simply” regular old gang members who use white supremacist rhetoric to attract white supremacists to not do white supremacist crimes.

        You ask what I want? I want you to make up your mind. Either they are white supremacists or they are not. If they are not, how can you say white supremacists support Jr. and GZ when they are “simply” regular old gang members and not white supremacists?

        If white supremacist rhetoric is what attracts them to this gang, why would you say they are not really white supremacists just because they do not commit hate crimes?

        If they are not white supremacists, how can we talk about Jr. and GZ being supported by white supremacists? What is there to talk about? They are not being supported by white supremacists but merely. . . I mean but simply by regular old gang members.

        My opinion is, if these people have a gang based on and built upon white supremest rhetoric, saying the leader is a Jew is no different than someone saying GZ can’t be racists because his grandfather (supposedly) was black. You know, the old “some of my best friends are Jewish” thing.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Jun, the jury should not be presented with speculations.

        Only solid evidence is what should be presented:

        Evidence that defeats gz’s self defense claim.
        Evidence that proves that gz’s pursued Trayvon who was innocent of gz’s unfounded suspicions.
        Evidence that proves that gz’s killed Trayvon with a depraved mindset.
        Evidence that gz profiled Trayvon as one of the a-holes that always got away”

      • Jun says:


        Just look at Cielo’s explanation, as she explained it best


        I understand that. I was pointing out an interview I found, that allegedly Junior did with a white supremacist organization. I was also pointing out that they use racist propaganda to brainwash people, so their allegations need to be taken with a grain of salt.

      • gblock says:

        In my opinon, if someone uses hateful propaganda that they don’t actually believe in to play into the hatreds and prejudices of potential followers, that makes the whole thing even more disgusting!

        • cielo62 says:

          gblock~ the flip side of that are the rabid televangelists. It’s OBVIOUS they don’t believe in God based on their behavior. BUT they will use the faith of their followers to fleece them of tons of money! Yes, truly despicable.

          • Cielo…..And that is one of the reasons I’m an athiest now…Even leaving science out of it…..most all of my extended family are what I call “hypochristians”….I would point out contradictions in the bible only to get ….” Pat you’re so intelligent…..why can’t you use it for better things than denying god?”…So I’ll go along with the bit that the Earth is less than 7,000 years old?……Some could even be candidates for membership in westboro

          • cielo62 says:

            mountainmanpat~ LOL! And to think you came from a similar background! That makes you what, the WHITE sheep of the family?  LOL!   Don’t evern let anyone tell you what to believe. I was raised Roman Catholic. After years of struggle, I left the church. But I still believe in a deity, and express that in Wicca.  I believe in justice, and that justice is a concentrated human activity. God doesn’t take care of it; WE do. Hence my involvement here and other places. Concepts of justice seem to transcend labels; that is why we have such a wide array of believers and non believers on this blog. We share the same goal.

          • These same people take pride in helping smuggle bibles into China….At the same time support the burning of Quran’s…..WTF?

          • cielo62 says:

            mountainmanpat~ smuggling bibles and burning qurans are part and parcel of the same BS. That “My god is stronger than your god” game.

  30. Malisha says:

    If there were four official statements from the “Trayvon on Top” witness, then my bet is that he is the “MMA Punches” guy and his testimony is pretty darn impeachable.

    • groans says:

      Yes, the article is about Witness 6 – and also his fiance, Witness 17.

    • elcymoo says:

      That’s true, Malisha; the prior retractions under deposition would seem to me to render his statements as having little probative value. Surely O’Mara knows this, so I suspect that the latest deposition was announced solely for the purpose of producing a headline exactly like the one used by the OS, in hopes of further tainting the potential jury pool.

  31. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    “Zimmerman attorneys depose witness who says Trayvon was on top, Zimmerman crying for help”

    Orlando Sentinel January 17

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      from the article—
      The witness has now given at least five official statements about what he saw and heard that night. The most recent one is the just-disclosed deposition, when he was summoned by defense attorneys to the Seminole County criminal courthouse Dec. 11 and questioned by them with prosecutors present.”

    • Rachael says:

      I saw one of Jr.’s tweets saying “who was on top -or on bottom isn’t the issue. The issue is why did the fight begin?”

      Yes, why indeed.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Rachael, will O’Mara be releasing the contents of those depositions?

      • Xena says:

        I saw one of Jr.’s tweets saying “who was on top -or on bottom isn’t the issue. The issue is why did the fight begin?”

        Yes, why indeed.

        Junior knows why. If not but for the fact that GZ got out of his truck and followed Trayvon, the two would not have come into physical contact.

      • Jun says:

        It is very simple. Fogenhats targeted, stalked, chased, terrorized and harassed an unarmed boy, and then confronted and attacked the boy when he caught him, and Fogenhats did this with a gun, a car, and a flashlight… that is why there was a struggle…

        I would not even call it a fight because a fight is two combatants going at each other, and in this situation it was just Fogenhats going at Trayvon the whole time, while Trayvon yelled and screamed for help

      • Jun says:

        It is also sounding like Junior is scared that most of the witnesses are placing his brother on top of Trayvon, pretty much all of them except for w6, who only realistically saw 5 seconds of the struggle

        Because for a while he was going on and on about the alleged bashes that never happened

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Couple that with our recent discussions of the dehumanizing conversations with the perp at the crime scene of the importance of the ammo and type of gun, while a human being lay dead on the ground.

          I wouldn’t have cared what color the victim was, I simply would not have engaged such a disgusting and out of place conversation. Yet, GZ had no trepidations at all, engaging in this discussion is such a matter-of-fact way, that it might have been an animal laying dead on the ground. That, my friends, is deepest darkest racism of the most repulsive sort. The kind you only see in cartoons on racist websites, only here it’s being played out in real life.

          The sheets are now in full and open view, flying and bright in the wind for all to see. Witness #6 is in some serious trouble, mark my words.

          • cielo62 says:

            Lonnie~ What is even worse, is that GZ didn’t even treat Trayvon on par with an animal. Hunters will say how strong or wily their prey was. Not GZ. He just started talking about ammo. No regard for ANYTHING living besides himself.

          • How I loathe that POS…….doesn’t deserve to be called a man….even less….human.

      • kindheart101 says:


        I am calling it a night, but I send hopes you are feeling better?

        See you soon I hope.

      • Rachael says:

        Good night kindheart. Thanks. I’m going to bed now too.

    • groans says:

      Is that newspaper part of the defense team, or WHAT?

      And to whomever asked whether O’Mara would release that deposition information – it sounds like he certainly already did!

      Just when I was starting to think that a modicum of decency was being adopted by the defense, my bubble is burst by yet another leak. I reckon it wasn’t so much decency causing the relative silence recently, afterall – probably just a lack of anything defense-friendly to introduce in the Court of Public Opinion.


      • @ Groans…..Without a doubt……..MOM’s trying to turn the whole trial into a dog & pony show…..Beyond sad……..sickening….

      • groans says:

        Oops – my bad!!!

        I should have read the article myself before writing my preceding comment! Apparently the OS doesn’t know WHAT was said in the deposition. Please disregard the above, with my apologies to the OS and defense team.

        (I had a loose nut on my keyboard, as my brother would say! 😦 )

      • groans says:

        Actually, the OS wrote it so confusingly that they don’t deserve an apology. The fact that the deposition testimony substance is not known is easy to miss amidst all the article’s other chatter. Shame on OS.

        PS – I’ll stop having a conversation with myself now. Appreciate your patience, everyone.

  32. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Did any of you find out why the surveillance camera at the front gate of RaTL was not working?……and how long it had not been working?

  33. seallison says:

    Don’t know what is happening here or why. Signing off until next posting. Not gettin it.

  34. Kelly Payne says:


  35. colin black says:

    Egyptians held cats in such great respect.
    An army refused to attack a rival force whom strapped live cats to there sheilds.
    True or not I dont know.

  36. Two sides to a story says:

    Jr. might make a great stylist, dahling.

    • blushedbrown says:

      @ Xena & TSTAS

      Dahlinggg he is to die for! Oh my have you seen his facial hair, I bet he has those hairs are numbered and sequenced as to how to apply the proper setting lotion.

  37. kindheart101 says:

    Wow. I was gone for a day and a half, and I’m still reading everyone’s comments to find out what I missed! 🙂

  38. Malisha says:

    Oh my “nailist”? He’s an adorable guy I call “Junior” who wears a diamond in his ear. So sexy!

    • blushedbrown says:

      @Xena & Malisha

      I thought he was the media guy, I had no clue that his talents were really the “nails”. I should of known, the earring was a dead giveaway. How many carats do you think it is? I for one will not wear anything less then 3 carats in my ears, darlingggggg.

      • Rachael says:

        I sure hope I’m misunderstanding this.

        • blushedbrown says:



          Its for Xena. I think Yahtc addressed it. Its not real. 🙂
          playing along……

          • Xena says:

            And I thank you and everyone else. I think it’s over now. The last comment he/she sent sounded like he/she was drunk. He/she has a hard-on for the professor too. Barely a comment without something derogatory included about the professor.

          • blushedbrown says:

            I intend to help you in any way I can so you can be sucessfully in filling charges. It is one thing to disagree with a person and post constructive debate, its quite another when a cyber-bully thinks he/she can just do anything to anyone on the internet. There are laws against this and many people are successful when they get the proof they need to bring them to justice.

            Glad to be of help.

          • Xena says:

            I intend to help you in any way I can so you can be sucessfully in filling charges. It is one thing to disagree with a person and post constructive debate, its quite another when a cyber-bully thinks he/she can just do anything to anyone on the internet. There are laws against this and many people are successful when they get the proof they need to bring them to justice.

            Glad to be of help.

            Thanks blushedbrown. I know I can count on you. The cyber bullies shall be dealt with through all proper and legal means. The comments sent intended to demean are things I’ve put up with since August when I opened my blog. The purported “doxing” is what gets the attention of law enforcement. Even the blog site that the cyber-harassers post to, has posted an article about the illegal activity of doxing. Even if they have wrongfully identified the person, it is still a violation of law.


          • blushedbrown says:

            I read the comments on the site, and I think what he did was write a post about doxing of Osterman, but he got two things done effectively at the same time. 1) Let the posters know the legal ramifications about “doxing” or “outing” . 2)The posters now know that posting information on his site can cause legal action for themselves and the admins. Kinda like reverse psychology.

            It was amazing how they preached about the Ostermans, but when it came to DeeDee, if I read it correctly since the real DeeDee wasn’t outed, they think they are safe. Duh, harassment of who they thought was DeeDee is still harassment.

      • Rachael says:

        blushedbrown – I know what Xena said she is doing – but this language just looked like something else to me. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions.

    • Xena says:

      @Malisha. Don’t let a certain treeslummer read that. She might get jealous. I hear she’s still learning the difference between square and round and losing lots of customers in the process.

  39. Xena says:

    Just want you guys to know that each time I post a comment here, I receive a comment to my blog from Jordan222 who posts on the treeslum. So please, reply to me excessively. LOL!!

    • Malisha says:

      Oh Xena, I feel so extraordinarily excessive about your most recent comment! My dear, your hairstyle is simply the most beautiful adornment I have ever seen in all my born days! 😛 And the chicken soup you made last Thursday went down in the Guinness book of World Records for “most referenced recipe on the world-wide-web including the spice turmeric.” :mrgreen: And your emerald green high heels are the finest shoes ever to have graced feed since the beginning of the British Empire. 😀 (Is that excessive enough?) (Who is jordan222 and what’s on the other side of that river anyway?) 😈

      • Xena says:

        Malisha, darling!!! How nice to see your fonts. Thanks for complimenting me on my new hairdo. Glad you like it. Since you mentioned my emerald green high heels, I ordered them from a store in Kansas. Oh — got the chicken soup recipe from an Asian cook in Washington state. My promoter tried marketing it in Jacksonville, FL, but now feels that everyone should meet in Illinois for official taste testing.

        Have I told you lately how wonderful you look? Love your nails.

        Oh — on the other side of Jordan is Pottwatame. 🙂

        • blushedbrown says:


          I did catch a glimpse of those emearld shoes, I think you were on your way to that very famous restaurant, you know the one. But anywho, I think I will order those same shoes but have the heel customed made in RED. You know how I love that color. Anywho, Malisha will not give me her nailist, I am so poo poo mad about that, but I still love her. Catch up with you later. Ciao!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        [[[ “So please, reply to me excessively. LOL!!” (Xena) ]]]

        Okay, Xena…..

        How’s this…….your posts are so wonderfully insightful that they…..well, they just make me want to SHOUT bravo!!!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Funny….my husband just looked up from his computer to see me movin’ and rockin’ to this recording of “Shout” 🙂

        He can’t hear it because I have my headphones on. LOL

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


        Glad you love it!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Xena my dear……since you already have your do and emerald shoes…….perhaps this link on fashion will give you some ideas for accessories (as you click this link…..remember that I am 63)


        • blushedbrown says:

          @Xena & Yahtc

          Thank you for posting. Those women are beautiful and I loved their clothes and their confidence. We all are going to get old so why not have some fun with fashion and life. Great link.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Absolutely, blushedbrown……why not? 🙂

      • Dennis says:


        I saw something on TV the other day and it turns out Dorothy’s shoes were not Ruby Red in the book, but Silver instead. I’m sure the red ones look much prettier. You learn something new every day.

        • Xena says:

          @Dennis. Silver. Interesting. Spiritually, silver is the color of judgment. That goes along well in the story of Dorothy overcoming and defeating the witches and her own fears.

    • Jun says:

      well it sounds as though you will be receiving posts from 200 profiles of each of their members

      • Xena says:


        well it sounds as though you will be receiving posts from 200 profiles of each of their members

        I bet that GZ wishes that they could produce money to keep up with their profiles.

    • blushedbrown says:


      This blog is the greatest, I can not express how valuable your posts are to me and everyone else. Thanks for letting me know about all the good things that are happening here.

      • blushedbrown says:

        If you get a chance I want to discuss some programs that you might find of interest.

      • blushedbrown says:


        Oh, and I think Lonnie has some great organizing programs as well.

        • Xena says:

          Oh, and I think Lonnie has some great organizing programs as well.

          Lonnie has good organization in his head. I’m looking into other private internet groups. Yahoo first eliminated the chat function in its groups, and now with limiting the size of documents you can upload, it just isn’t useful anymore.

          • blushedbrown says:


            I agree, Lonnie keeps everything in his head. 🙂

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Have to, computers can’t weigh emotional fare. Like the meaning of having a cabal of racists associating with one another in the background of a case that requires they work together to achieve the results on display.

            A very long time ago, I had enough information about this case to suspect that it was an initiation. It has all the ear marks back then, even if they were fewer in number and oh so gossamer. Now they’re getting stronger and stronger and the players are beginning to become visible.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Have to, computers can’t weigh emotional fare.

            I totally agree there. Sometimes I think my head is better then the computer also in some regards,but not in everything.

          • blushedbrown says:

            I ask Whonoze when I get a chance.

      • cielo62 says:

        Xena- I have a great reading list by C.S. Lewis if you’d like to try something beyond the Narnian Chronicles.

        Are those emerald shoes flats? I bet you probably look like like dynamite in 6 inch stilettos but I’d break my neck! Are they available as flats or better yet, sneakers?

        I can always use more chicken soup. Add some matzo balls! Yummy!

        Na’Mer and I send meows and head bonks!

        Sent from my iPod

        • Xena says:

          @cielo62. I have C.S. Lewis’ “The Joyful Christian” which is a good compilation of his writings, but I’m always willing to see your recommendations.

          By the way, cats still rock.

          • blushedbrown says:


            I like the Wookie Armor cat the best, that was funny.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena wrote  “By the way, cats still rock.” Rock? Mine rock, roll, scratch, purr and practically FLY through the air when they hear a can of cat food being opened!   I did a mini-thesis on “The Screwtape Letters” when I was in college. “The Great Divorce” is an amazing insight into human nature and spirituality. And nothing beats reading “Mere Christianity” for understanding the human need for a spiritual life. I don’t agree that such a quest must of necesity end in Christianity, but he believed so, having few other options in his day. In a nutshell, I would recommend those.   BTW, Xena, are you still planning on something online to honor Trayvon on what would have been his 18th birthday? You know I’m all behind that! Just tell me what to do.    

          • Xena says:

            @cielo62. I have the Screwtape Letters. Years ago I asked a minister to read them, and he thought they were sacrilegious. It was the last time I shared anything with him. 🙂

            “The Great Divorce” is an amazing insight into human nature and spirituality.

            I have that and I agree.

            And nothing beats reading “Mere Christianity” for understanding the human need for a spiritual life.

            Now, that’s one I don’t have. Thanks for recommending it.

            BTW, Xena, are you still planning on something online to honor Trayvon on what would have been his 18th birthday? You know I’m all behind that! Just tell me what to do.

            I looked up the candles, but actually don’t think that people will sign-in at the blog, then sign-in at that site to light one too. Still, whatever is posted will have a link to that site because it’s a neat thing to do. Kindheart101 is so good with poetry that I was thinking about asking if she could write a poem. Then, if I put it on video, I can include the names of blogs and others who support justice for Trayvon as scrolling signatures.

            Still, I’m open to suggestions.

          • Xena….

            You or anyone else that has a site to truly honor Trayvon and his parents?

            I’ll sign in a heartbeat….

            The hell with Obama…..If it were one of my sons murdered in such a fashion?….I believe I would be facing 1st degree murder charges.

            I can’t even imagine the terror he felt in his last moments.


          • Xena says:


            You or anyone else that has a site to truly honor Trayvon and his parents?

            http://blackbutterfly7.wordpress.com. There’s a block to the right of the screen for categories. There’s a category for Encouragement for Trayvon’s Families and Friends. “Friends” should be understood to include those who support justice for Trayvon whether or not they knew him personally.

            Since October, each month has its own post. First time comments do go into moderation. Once approved, further comments are immediately posted. Look forward to seeing you there.

          • Done Xena…..now go moderate it 🙂

          • Xena says:

            LOL@Pat. Hey, I like a man who is brave enough to tell me what to do. 🙂

      • Xena says:

        @blushedbrown. Have I told you and others commenting here lately how much I love you? Oh — and can’t forget to give the professor credit for making this all possible, bringing us together and teaching us.

        • blushedbrown says:

          I love that we are here together in our fight, quest , for Trayvon Martin.I love all the comments and posters here as well. Much love and admiration goes to Mr. Leatherman and his adoring wife Crane.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        whoo……hooo…….you go, cat!

      • cielo62 says:

        LOL! Xena, where do you GET this stuff? I loved the “Hover Cat coming for your soul” one! I had a cat identical to that one!mExcept he didn’t hover…

        • Xena says:

          The hover cat is among my favorites too. I have to find an attack cat for Kindheart101.

          • kindheart101 says:

            Oh Lord Xena!

            I have 3 babies. (Cats) All of them are rescues. One I have had for 13 years, no tail, her name is Nubs (LOL) very shy. One is 8, and a purrrrfect attack cat………..even when a doorbell rings in a commercial on TV……..she runs to the door and growls? (Why? I have no clue? She will hiss at anything standing, except me.) The third is a young male that was going to be put down. He is 5 now. I adopted him 4 years ago. He is the sweetest, most loving of the three.

          • Xena says:


            Oh Lord Xena!

            I have 3 babies. (Cats) All of them are rescues….

            Bless your heart. I’ve not owned a cat. My sister has. When I volunteered for the no-kill animal shelter, they assigned me to the cats. I love cats and dogs. There’s a cat in the neighborhood that comes by to visit, although I have a dog. She likes to lay under my patio furniture.

            This page is loading really slow. I don’t think much is on the page for Sunday open discussion, so I’ll post a video for you there.

    • blushedbrown says:


      I was wondering if I could be a guest blogger on your site.

      • blushedbrown says:


        I have a great recipe for Tres Leche cake if your interested.

        • cielo62 says:

          Xena- I make a killer 5 cheese meat lasagna! I know it doesn’t go with chicken soup but Y’know, sometimes you can get sick if chicken soup. GZ better be scarfing down gallons if fresh chicken soup cuz the pen only serves the canned stuff.

          Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            If GZ’s supporters send him a couple of dollars every month, he can buy a bologna sandwich to go along with his canned chicken soup.

        • Xena says:


          I have a great recipe for Tres Leche cake if your interested.

          LOL!! A baker I am not. Corn bread is about the only baked item I make from scratch. All other baked items either come from a box or are frozen. LOL!!

      • cielo62 says:

        Xena- me too! I wanna be a guest blogger! Mine I’d so boring. Nothing but 2nd graders.

        Sent from my iPod

        • blushedbrown says:


          I think Cielo and I can put together a great blog post with the 2nd graders help, regarding the Egyptians. It will be awesome for them to draw cats and Cielo can give details about how they buried their dead with cat statues. I can add some other details as well. It will be fun!

        • Xena says:

          I’ll send you an invite too! Encouraging words for Trayvon’s family and friends are running the Zidiots crazy. They hate that more than they hate blogging details about GZ’s lies.

          • blushedbrown says:


            Those supporters of Gz boggle my mind, they don’t want to listen to facts, evidence, law, common sense. I am glad that your blog shows a continued support for Trayvon Martin. I also applaud you for having Kindheart101 featuring her poetry.

          • Xena says:

            Those supporters of Gz boggle my mind, they don’t want to listen to facts, evidence, law, common sense.

            They’re too busy trying to demean and defame the professor to keep up with GZ’s case.

            I am glad that your blog shows a continued support for Trayvon Martin.

            When I had that dream about Trayvon, it grabbed my heart and confirmed that I participate in supporting justice for him and let his family know that they are not forgotten.

            I also applaud you for having Kindheart101 featuring her poetry.

            Kindheart101 is a blessing for Blackbutterfly7 and to me. She too can become an author and post all of her poetry under its own category if she wants to. In the alternative, I have no problem helping her launch her own poetry blog. Her talent is a candle and should not be hidden.

          • blushedbrown says:

            I love that dream, him laughing throwing papers in the air. I still remember it Xena. Vey powerful.

      • Xena says:



        I was wondering if I could be a guest blogger on your site.

        You sure can!!! I’m honored that you ask. When I go back to administrative functions, I’ll send you an invite.

      • kindheart101 says:


        I spent the afternoon making fresh Collard Greens with sweet onions, bacon, ham and cornbread for my neighbors this afternoon. Funny thing is, they are from the mid-west, and have family in town for the weekend and wanted them to experience southern cooking.

        I love to cook.

      • looneydoone says:

        I love tres leches cake !
        I have a recipe for Mango & Habanero sorbet to share…yummm

    • Rachael says:

      Don’t really know what is going on here, but just checking in, saying hi. I will reply again in a bit. Here’s to exceedingly excessive.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Yes, why not? 🙂

  40. Xena says:

    This morning, Trevor Dooley was sentenced to 8 yrs in prison for manslaughter. The prosecution asked for a sentence of 30 yrs. Dooley claimed SYG, was denied immunity, and stood trial where the jury found him guilty of manslaughter. Although witnesses testified that David James was first to put his hands on Dooley, the jury decided that Dooley’s decision to walk out of his garage with a loaded gun in his waistband made him the aggressor.


    • Not lookin’ good for the foge…..

      To add to his list of failures, is failing to be a convincing liar…..failing to get away with murder……

      Anyone have anymore to add?

      • kindheart101 says:


        I honestly believe Z knew he was in the wrong, but felt people and the HOA would have his back. Everything he has lied about proves it, right down to not knowing about the SYG law. How can you be an Undergrad, for 8 years, with a Father that was a Magistrate, and hide out with your buddy Osterman and NOT know about SYG and the HOA Neighborhood Watch Regulations, or at best, discount a directive not to follow?

        Manslaughter………8 years.

        Second Degree Murder……..My hopes are 20+

      • Xena says:

        If the jury in GZ’s case decides on the same basis that they did in the Dooley case, then O’Mara will be wasting time arguing any issue after GZ independently decided to leave his truck and follow Trayvon on foot. Since GZ has no defense for that, he might as well start saving money for the commissary.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I hope ole Fogey gets more than eight years, because he will kill again. His “reenactment” shows he enjoyed it after the fact (smirk, shrug).

      • Jun says:

        I think he will fit in in prison. Fogen is just a predator. Prolly not a respected predator but a predator nonetheless. Fogen will have to join a gang or get eaten alive

    • kindheart101 says:



      • Xena says:

        Yeah, kindheart101. It’s like GZ taking a driver’s ed course, but dosen’t know anything about traffic lights. Well, maybe he didn’t take that course in which case, he does not have a valid CCL. By his own words, he puts yet another nail in his coffin.

        • He got a refund on the course also……I don’t see how his CCW could be legal……

          Another question I’ve asked, and have as yet to receive a reply.

          Has fogen ever been ordered to surrender any firearms in his possession?

          It was shellie’s pistol he used in the murder, yet didn’t osterman say he went with fogen to pick out the weapon….

          Basicaly, did fogen and shellie have 2 matching pistols?

          Or was shellies the only one they owned?

          • Xena says:


            Has fogen ever been ordered to surrender any firearms in his possession?

            If he was, it was not reported by the media. The media did report when ShelLIE’s license was revoked.

            It was shellie’s pistol he used in the murder, yet didn’t osterman say he went with fogen to pick out the weapon….

            Yes, Osterman did say that. As it turns out, GZ did the shopping and ShelLIE did the paying and registering.

            Basicaly, did fogen and shellie have 2 matching pistols?

            It now appears that they only owned one gun. That was a question that popped in my mind after reading a report that GZ tried buying 3 guns while he was hiding out with Osterman, and Osterman saying that he loaned GZ a gun when he left his house. Also, Osterman’s instructions to GZ to always carry to keep the gun out of the reach of children. In other words, if ShelLIE had her own gun, why not give it to GZ? If Shellie had her own gun, how was she keeping it out of the reach of children?

            The reasonable conclusion? They only purchased one gun; it was registered to ShelLIE; but GZ carried it.

          • He is gonna be so very screwed……….no CCW and carrying his wife’s handgun to commit murder……

          • Xena says:


            He is gonna be so very screwed……….no CCW and carrying his wife’s handgun to commit murder……

            According to discovery documents, the guy conducting the classes did not remember GZ, and he destroys his records every 2 yrs. so could not confirm if GZ attended. Now, if the State indeed has records of GZ completing that class, there would be no need to question the instructor.

            Then, the investigator inquired as to whether GZ had a Class G license. That is required for those carrying for employment purposes. There’s a reason for that too, because each time that GZ called the cops to report a suspicious person, and gave the clubhouse and not his own address, he was carrying. That is against NW rules and he didn’t have a Class G license to override those rules.

          • I know the part about the instructor and destroying his records….

            Still leaves the question as to why fogen got a refund on the class?

            I believe he applied for the permit……showed that he had signed up for the class….received his CCW….and dropped out of the class to get his 90 bucks back…….I mean why would have the instructor issued a refund??????

            Next question….can this be brought up in court?

          • Xena says:

            I believe he applied for the permit……showed that he had signed up for the class….received his CCW….and dropped out of the class to get his 90 bucks back…….I mean why would have the instructor issued a refund??????

            I don’t know if he paid the correct amount. The amount now published by Florida is more than a hundred dollars. Maybe like with the security firm, GZ pays until he gets what he wants, then stops paying.

            Next question….can this be brought up in court?

            Good question that I don’t have an answer for. Of course, the State can add another charge, but I get the impression that the investigator is actually federal and not State.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            The Feds and the federal courts, take a very dim view of states and local authorities giving arbitrary waivers of their own rules. Good and sufficient justifications will be needed if and when things reach the federal level.

        • kindheart101 says:

          So many lies. So much deceit Xena.

          I truly wish I could say I would have been half the parents Sybrina and Tracy are. When my son was mugged and beaten, with a gun held to head, almost 13 years ago, if I would have found them before the police? God help them!

          Your Grace, as parents, is profound as you wait for Trayvon’s Justice. Bless you. May you find strength daily in knowing we stand with you!

          • Xena says:

            @kindheart101, Sybrina and Tracy have dignity and faith, and it shows in the way they handled the killing of their son. it also gives strength and endurance to the families of other victims, because it tells them that no matter how much others try to drag you through the mud, truth and justice shall prevail.

          • kindheart101 says:


      • Dennis says:


        Since he is out on bond awaiting trial for murder, I doubt the judge would allow him to keep a weapon. I have not read his release conditions but I’m sure that one is part of it.

      • Dennis says:


        I would also assume Fogen had to surrender that weapon to the police since it is now evidence in a murder investigation.

        It will be sitting in a little room with a tag that says Exhibit A, LMFAO

    • Dennis says:


      Dooley blames race for his conviction, yet he was convicted by a multi-racial jury.

      An eight year prison sentence doesn’t even come close to justice in that case. He murdered a father in front of his 8 year old daughter.

      We need to get rid of manslaughter charges. It is either murder or self-defense, take your pick. If you decide to kill someone, you better be ready to pay for your crimes.

      • Xena says:



        Dooley blames race for his conviction, yet he was convicted by a multi-racial jury.

        Yes he did, because he tried focusing on the physical fight rather than his initiation of that altercation by leaving his garage with a loaded gun. There is great significance on the basis that the jury decided on because, if GZ is acquitted, then it does question whether race of the victim is important in jury decisions.

        An eight year prison sentence doesn’t even come close to justice in that case. He murdered a father in front of his 8 year old daughter.

        At Dooley’s age, he might die in prison, so 8 yrs is as bad as 30 or life for him.

        We need to get rid of manslaughter charges. It is either murder or self-defense, take your pick. If you decide to kill someone, you better be ready to pay for your crimes.

        While I agree, it is those states with death penalties that have to provide elements of crimes to justify a sentence of death or a finding of guilt for a lesser crime. It’s the system.

      • Jun says:

        We can expect the same from Fogenhats, the amazing race changing defendant

        When he feels being white will advantage himself, he will claim to be white

        But he gets convicted? He will then claim to be latino and they are racist against latinos, or at least Junior will LMAO

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Shades of things to come for the Fogen. But he’ll likely get more time because he brought down an unarmed minor.

      • blushedbrown says:


        I know from other states they slap more years for a minor, and more charges per bullet in the gun, even though you didn’t used them. They charge for recklessness and everything else that they can get in there. I find that only charging for murder 2 and the lesser included charge of manslaughter is weird. But then again, if there were more then that a jury might go for the little ity bity ones, instead of the big ones.

      • Dennis says:

        Since Fogen killed Trayvon with a gun, he will be subject to the 10-20-Life law. He will get the mandatory minimum of 25 years up to life in prison. Life in prison is literally life in Florida, no parole. He has no remorse for his actions so I would assume the judge will put him away for the rest of his life if convicted. I’m sure the prosecution will recommend life in prison too.

      • Dennis says:


        Even if they convict him of manslaughter he will get 25 years minimum. I would still rather they convict him of 2nd degree murder because that man is beyond rehabilitation and should never walk the streets again. Keep the public and all future women safe so that Fogen does not beat them or shoot them.

    • roderick2012 says:

      I disagree with the verdict.

      The entire situation began with a verbal disagreement and ended with the victim dead because he decided to physically confront someone because he didn’t like what was being said.

      I can’t believe that Dooley was convicted just because he flashed his gun which informed the idiot James that he was armed but he stupidly attacked him anyway.

      James is dead and Dooley will probably die in jail. They will probably spend eternity in the same place.

      • Dennis says:

        I understand what you are saying.

        Dooley is getting exactly what he deserves. He tried to play sheriff and yelled at a kid to stop skateboarding on the court.

        According to witnesses, James lunged at Dooley RIGHT AFTER Dooley reached into his waistband for his gun. Since James is an Iraq war veteran, he is trained to deal with such threats in that manner. He obviously felt Dooley was going to pull out his gun and shoot him. Maybe Dooley had predefined stereotypes toward black people in his mind which made him believe the guy was going to shoot him.

        Dooley is just like Fogen. His version of what happened contradicts the witnesses, which is an obvious sign he is lying. I have no sympathy for Dooley. He murdered a good man that fought for his country in front of his own daughter and who knows how many other countless children saw that.

        I wonder if they give you diapers in prison. LMFAO

  41. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Now I have notice all of you writing insightful comments about what you are discovering in many details that could almost be missed because they are small details or details hidden because a major key piece of evidence surrounds them. Congratulations!

    I have been fascinated by your discussions…..details of the ME report……… Lonnie’s gps discussion after he noted the Long Oaks Way/TTL was what the 911 people used………etc.

    It is also fascinating to listen to gz’s statements and pay attention to the tone of his voice, slips of the tongue, the times he does not follow a yes or no with “sir” or “ma’am”, his pauses, his restarts of sentences. Within his video statements we also learn a lot by his gestures, his glances, his sudden “no” at the clubhouse, + the investigators body language and where the investigators are looking as gz speaks.

  42. Malisha says:

    If I remember correctly, I ended up inadvertently in conflict with Logi because I let Jun know that I didn’t attribute racism to him from one of his comments, and then Logi asked me in a very challenging way to report on how many of my friends were Black and how many times they had been to my house (I am white). This was in a larger context. For some reason, I began to count up my friends who are Black and even was explaining who was African American and who was Black but not African American and then I was trying to remember where I was living at various times and etc. etc. (because if someone is a room-mate they are not a visitor to “your house” and various subtleties like that) when all of a sudden I realized that I was engaging in a silly self-defense gesture to try to label myself non-racist. I stopped doing that and wrote something else instead. I don’t remember any further problems explaining anything and I don’t remember when we last heard from Logi.

    • An Atheist Gay Black……Just think of the discrimination they would face?

      • I’m right there with you Malisha.

        “Oh I have gay friends”

        “Oh I have black friends”

        “Oh I have Jewish friends”

        Me? I just have friends….with no need to define them as anything other than that.

      • Xena says:

        An Atheist Gay Black……Just think of the discrimination they would face?

        Not as much as a Black Christian who is gay and attends church. Rejection is one thing. Condemnation can be devastating.

      • cielo62 says:

        MountainMan Pat said “An Atheist Gay Black……Just think of the discrimination they would face?”   You forgot female! A lesbian hispanic Wiccan who votes Democrat. No wonder the Southern Baptist GOP member who moved in next to me hated me so much!

      • kindheart101 says:


        I have read many of your posts, and if I may say, I find you to be an extremely strong, and caring person. Why certain groups, or individuals feel it is their “Right” to demean, prosecute, or point fingers at another person, I will never understand. 😦

        I raised my children to see NO color, race, creed, religion or lifestyle, outside of their own home! I always encouraged them to accept every person for how they are toward them, to NEVER judge anyone, and most of all, to always remember……..it is wrong for anyone to judge them as well.

        Twenty years with the love of your life is to be respected.

        Congratulations! That is a very rare thing in this world today.

        (And your neighbor needs to get a life!)

      • kindheart101~ THANK YOU! I wish there were more parents like you in the world. Children DO live what they’re taught. In my own small way, I modle for my students kthe change I want to see in the world. I just wish these seeds I plant would flower faster!

        • kindheart101 says:


          Children are resilient and smart. The world, and state by state, as we watch, are changing about many things concerning everything from government, to relationships and gun control.

          You my friend have stood your ground, you are happy, and I personally admire your strength as the tables turn in your favor.

          I would have been honored to have you teach any one of my 3 children, or my Grandchildren also. 🙂

          Stay strong………..your day is close………as those that discriminate, will have NO voice!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Malisha, I don’t remember as you say “any further problems” explaining anything.

      Your tone in your long response to Logi was helpful and considerate. The tone I speak of is reflected in these comments you included in that response—-

      [[ “I surely didn’t mean to insult YOU. So here I am, saying, in addition to my apology for having inadvertently done so, that I surely didn’t mean to and don’t understand how I did. Nevertheless, we should apologize for the wrong we do deliberately and for the wrongs we do accidentally, and even for the wrongs we do unknowingly, and apparently I have offended you, and that’s wrong.” (Malisha) ]]]


      [[[ “Professor’s article on this thread is significant for the very reason that you, Jun and I have gotten into this discussion. I respect you and ask you to consider respecting me. Although I won’t bring you “a note from my mother” excusing any past comment I have made, I will read and thoughtfully respond to whatever comment you make now.” (Malisha) ]]]

      I think you are a caring person, Malisha. I also think you must be a wonderful advocate for people in need. And, of course, you are a great advocate for Trayvon.

      Keep up your great work, Malisha!

      • Malisha says:

        How sweet of you, YouAll, and how very good you are at remembering and cataloguing comments! I could never have cagegorized and found my responses as you did! WOW!

    • Jun says:

      I dont feel Logi realizes that I am from Vancouver BC, and we are very multicultural here. I dont actually tally up the races of all my friends, like it is some kind of score. There’s a percentage of black folks who feel it is okay to use the N word in conversation and it does not mean anything racist. They call me the N word all the time, and it does not mean anything racist. Yes I made the NC photobucket and I told everyone here I would not use that photobucket if it offended people. I then explained that I made that handle a long time ago and how it was intended. Then Freddy said to not discuss the N word anymore so I stopped. However, Logi kept wanting to discuss it and 2 pick verbal arguments with people regarding it. I do not feel the discussion was heated. I was not angry nor do I feel Malisha was.

      IMO, Logi came across as a troll to me. I do not remember telling Logi how to feel, or how all black people should feel, I only explained my position and my intention and my feelings. I even told Logi if Logi has an issue with me only, just take it out with me only, but not on here, and dont take it out on anyone else, and stated to let us just discuss the case on here for J4TM because it is getting off subject. Logi then decided to talk smack to Freddy and everyone else and Logi got banned.

      I admit that I used ignorant language as a kid, and I enjoy racial comedy by people like Dave Chapelle and such, but I do not feel I am a racist at all. I do not feel any race of people is beneath others. I judge people on the content of their character, just like Buddha taught.

      • gblock says:


        With respect to the black folks that use the N word – I am sure that they are very aware that the word is very racist in its origins. I can’t fully explain their reasons for using it with any degree of certainty. They may enjoy that they are flouting propriety by using it. They may be co-opting its use into that of a more general put-down. But whatever it is, you need to have some realization that your friends are/were quite aware of the word’s racist origins when using it, before you continue to claim that the way they used it, they didn’t mean anything racist by it.

        And I hope that the Professor forgives me for talking about this, since I haven’t done so before this.

  43. Lonnie Starr says:

    I’m pretty sure that once TM knew this crazy dude was watching him in that truck, if it was parked there on TTL near the cut through, he would have avoided walking that way. Why, in the world would he want to get near it? Most especially since he lived to the south!

    So, if GZ was parked where he says, my impression is that TM would have left the mail shed and headed towards the nearest southern cut through, and gone between the buildings, before heading south towards home.

    So, it seems to me that GZ is lying once again, just like it did when he tried to say he saw TM at Taaffe’s. The odds of things happening the way he says are incredibly low. Frightened people don’t walk towards the source of their fears if they have another choice.

    If TM went to the north path towards the T, then it was because GZ was actually parked south on TTL, thus blocking TM’s access to the nearest cut through, and forcing him to take the north cut through to the T, to avoid having to pass close to GZ in his truck.

    GZ, on the other hand, is trying to structure a narrative where, he is not frightening to TM, but that TM is acting aggressively with bravado. GZ is parked south on TTL, but when he see’s TM moving towards the north cut through, he says on the NeN call “he’s coming towards me”. What he doesn’t know is, for that whole time TM is on the phone himself. So, when GZ says that TM asked him why he was following him, and he says he answered that he was not following him and rolled his window back up. DD should have been a witness to that exchange, she was not! So, that never happened at all.

    TM never walked towards GZ’s truck, instead he took pains to avoid it. That means he was forced by GZ to take the long way around to get home, which gave GZ more time to get into position to catch him.

    TM probably started to run, after he rounded the corner and was out of GZ’s line of sight! At which point, GZ needed an excuse to get himself into position to intercept TM as he came south in the dog path corridor. TM probably started south, keeping close to the buildings/shadows on the west side of the corridor. GZ exclaims “He’s running” and gets out of his truck, then runs south on TTL to get to the last cut through, so he can apprehend TM before he reaches, either his house or the back gate.

    GZ waits in the cut through there for TM to come along, and continues to talk to NeN, until he spots TM coming this way. TM, is crossing the dog path corridor, to get to his house, when GZ springs out into the corridor and TM hears him, looks and says to DD he’s behind him again. TM, not wanting to lead GZ to the house, turns away and tries to run south, and away from the house. TM tires and GZ catches him and applies some painful hold to stop him from running, TM howls in pain and witnesses begin to appear. GZ’s plan to herd TM to the north walkway ends there.

    GZ’s drug and alcohol addled brain, doesn’t allow him to change the planned story, he has rehearsed. Nor is he questioned about events leading up to the location of death, until much later on. When he is asked about that part of the chase, his drug addled brain simply kicks out the prepared story, that everything happened at the T. After all, it doesn’t matter does it? The “fix” is already in, Serino is assuring him that he’s not under arrest, so GZ believes that the fix is in, so he tells the prepared story and sure enough he’s released.

    Serino is going along with a protocol that’s already been set by higher ups. All he can do is attempt to document GZ’s story, otherwise his hands are tied. Nor can Serino make waves, because that will result in the case being handed over to someone who is more willing to mess up the investigation.

  44. Dan Q. Smith says:

    I don’t hate the fogen but I won’t lie about the fact I think he’s evil. I don’t hate his family but I won’t lie about the fact I have no use nor time for them. I don’t hate his supporters but I won’t lie about the fact I think thret’re psychotic.

    • Rachael says:

      I think I lied the other day. I think I do hate his supporters. When I go to the outhouse I am filked with such sadness and rage, yes, i think I just might hate them.

      • I’m right there with you Rachael….

        I even had one of them threaten to come up here and piss his name in the snow on my property !!!!!!!!!!

        • Xena says:


          I even had one of them threaten to come up here and piss his name in the snow on my property !!!!!!!!!!

          I’m currently being “doxed,” and cyber-harassed in effort to defame me, and it’s giving me a good laugh because the Zidiots have not researched the name of the producer of the Xena Warrior Princess television series. LOL!! The persons they are doxing probably don’t know about the activity, but cyber-harassment is another animal that has legal options.

      • Xena says:

        @Rachael. The Zidiots are too pathetic to hate. The fact that they attack others rather than support GZ reveals that they hate all those seeking justice for Trayvon. Let them continue sending negative energy out under the posture of supporting GZ because it has and continues returning to him. The man is homeless, unemployed, broke, with ADHD that might not be treated now if he no longer has insurance, with a wife who cannot support herself either. They both are awaiting trial.

      • A Rachael, Xena and Mountainmanpat………

        I was out all day yesterday with a friend, sitting on a longgggggggggggggg ocean pier, watching the birds feed from the ocean and the dolphins swimming in pods. I don’t get out often, and it was a wonderful, peaceful day. 🙂

        I just logged on for a few minutes to catch up on any new news, and to say hello to everyone.

        Also, @Rachael. You have been in my thoughts. I hope you are feeling better?

        • Xena says:

          @Kindheart101. I’m working on something for your poem. It’ll take a couple of days so we’ll touch base when you return. Be safe, and be blessed.

          • Kind

            Never was a “beach” person…..I always enjoyed spending the night at the end of a pier with a couple rods out…:)

            Seagulls?……had one swoop down and snatch the frozen Mackerel I’d bought for bait 😐

            Glad you had a great day….nature is wonderful

          • kindheart101 says:


            Oh……….how I love nature! I sat for hours and watched the seagulls and pelicans dive, face first, into the water to feed. The dolphins were swimming in pods, right in front of us.

            I never liked the beach either. When my children were small, they loved the beach, as I sat wondering why? (Sand in your suit, food and drug into the car……urghhhh) I took them because they loved it, but after they were grown, I have never gone back.

            I live right on the coast, and have brackish water 20 feet from my back deck. I love to sit out back and watch the birds, deer and owls on the move. I have a HUGE horned owl that perches on a live oak tree limb, no more than 15 feet above my balcony. He just stares at me………lol……piercing eyes………doesn’t move. (I am still trying to figure out which family member he is??? LOL)

      • looolooo says:

        @ Xena I wouldn’t be at all suprised if we hear that ShelLIE is pregnant, and that he, she and little George Jr. or Georgette will be DISgracing the cover of People, US, etc.. Wouldn’t be suprised at all. Cha-ching. We’ll see.

        God help us if Jr. eye’s any suspicious looking infants lying around in cribs looking about.

      • kindheart101 says:


        I was going to go to a friends house tonight, and return Wednesday morning. I have a doctors appointment, but I really don’t want to leave my cats alone that long, so I am going to go in the morning. Guess you guys are stuck with me for the night. 😦

        • Xena says:

          Hooray!!! Glad you can stick around.

          • kindheart101 says:

            You are such a charm Xena. Your warmth would heat the coldest home. 🙂 As I sit here, with 2 cats in my lap, and one at my feet, LOL I’m still here until the morning.

          • Xena says:

            See, your babies would miss you if you were gone overnight. If this thread was not so long and slow, I would post a cat video for you. 🙂

          • kindheart101 says:

            ACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK like I need more cats? LOL They follow my every step Xena. They sleep with me, tuck in around me, and are my daily support for laughter and love. They are all rescues, from a young age, and my children say they have taken their place. LOL

  45. Night cha’all
    I’ll leave you with this……

  46. Two sides to a story says:

    Back on the subject of hating Fogen being self-destructive – this is an important and inspiring site – http://www.restorativejustice.org/RJOB/more-meditations-on-restorative-justice

    • SearchingMind says:

      Justice and healing are not the same. Justice is, be it not necessarily, an essential condition for healing. Justice can be retributive/punitive or restorative or a combination of both. All forms of justice involves a certain degree of compensation from the wrong doer. In the case of retributive justice, compensation can come in the form of execution or loss of limbs/body parts or loss of freedom. In case of restorative justice, compensation can come in the form of sincere apology and/or restoring what was damaged to exactly how it was before the damaged or pecuniary- or material payment equivalent to that which was damaged. I think that the article you linked is incorrectly title ‘restorative justice’ and that the victim in that article has not (yet) received any justice whatsoever. She (the victim) is healing in a stoic way. She may have decide to love her enemy (as Jesus preached)-, she may have reconciled herself with the fact that the criminal who violated her may never be found, etc. and has therefore decided to move on (without seeking justice), forgive and (try to) forget. That’s a good way for her to heal her battered spirit, find the spiritual freedom and the inner peace she deserves. I hope that Trayvon’s parents, irrespective of how this trial ends, would find the spiritual strength to move on. Life sucks, IMO.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The site isn’t just about one article, but you have some good observations. We also have to consider that justice isn’t always meted out in a courtroom. Karma is immutable and justice balances all, one way or another. I think what I find most important in thinking about justice is that there’s a divine dance of transformation going on between perpetrator and victim, and that both must find a certain balance and forgiveness before the entire situation is karmically cleansed or transformed.

  47. Malisha says:

    At first I thought the “white shirt” was Taaffe; then I began to wonder if the “white shirt” was Osterman. Now I have decided that we will probably never figure this one out because both Taaffe and Osterman are scared to death of revealing what their real part was in the “festivities” of that evening.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Yes, Malisha…..the white t-shirt has been a puzzle.

      I posted this 2 or 3 pages back—
      You all have thoughtful comments says:
      January 15, 2013 at 10:32 am
      Manberk–Now I’d like to quote W3 and then discuss why she might have interpreted George’s jacket as a T-shirt.

      [[[W3–composite— And then this is just the guy with the white shirt and he was on top. And I couldn’t see the person underneath. the guy in the white tee-shirt on top, his back was to me. So, I peeked up underneath and I saw… I couldn’t really even see fighting, like I didn’t even see like anyone like wailing on anyone. I couldn’t tell who it was.
      It was extremely dark out there. There were no lights in my back yard. I just saw a guy on top. And the guy on top had a white tee-shirt or just like all I saw was white. So, at… my initial… the only thing that I saw was that initial when I looked through the blinds and I saw the white shirt. ‘Cause everything was dark.]]]]

      You all have thoughtful comments says:
      January 15, 2013 at 10:40 am
      Perhaps the part of gz’s jacket that was red was seen by W3 as simply being LIGHTER and she could not distinguish the color of red. Also, she could not even see the black part.

      If that is the case, when looking at gz’s sleeves, W3 would not have seen the upper part which was black or the lower part that was black.

      W3 would only have seen the LIGHTER part near the elbow which WE know was red, but which W3 might only have seen as lighter and then interpreted it as white AND a SHORT SLEEVE because she could not have seen the rest of the sleeve (since it was black).

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Manberk had written–

        @YAHTC been thinking about color too. With the absence of light I don’t think any of them really saw red. Seeing color is dependent on the presence of light.

      • cielo62 says:

        I have a theory about the “white t-shirt.” Depending on the material of the jacktet, it might have looked white REFLECTING what small amount of light was available. I mean, the witness saw SOMETHING so there was some light there. The red could reflect as white; the black part remains black and thus invisible. It will look like a t-shirt in the semi-light.   I don’t believe GZ had anybody there with him, other wise Trayvon would have mentioned there being 2 guys before he was cut off.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Exactly, cielo, that is what I am trying to say.

      • Night cha,ya’ll….I’ll leave U with the Specials….a message to you rudy…..Two tone forever….

      • Mike says:

        I’m thinking that the black parts in forgens jacket was reflective like what runners ware so that they can be seen at night buy cars.

      • Malisha says:

        I just remembered something interesting about seeing color in the dark AND about how color shows up with different gradients of light and so forth. When my kid (olive skin, dark brown hair) was little, I ran an in-home day-care center and we had four other kids, two of whom were little boys about his age. One of the little boys about his age was Hispanic, with coloring much like my own kid’s coloring, but with black hair that was very shiny and sleek. One of the moms took pictures of all five kids engaged in a pillow fight. (I used my bedroom, which had a foam mattress on the floor and about 20 pillows, for both “quiet time” if kids got too rambunctious and for organized and supervised pillow fights if it was raining out and there was no time for outdoor runaround play. So there they were fighting with their pillows. In one of the still pictures, the little Hispanic kid shows up holding a pillow over his head and ready to really let loose, mouth wide open in a roar or a giggle. The pillow-case was red but showed black in the photo! His hair was black but showed nearly WHITE in the photo! Don’t ask me how; it was reflected light, somehow, but I’ll never figure it out.

        Also, when you see “red-eye” in photographs, we KNOW those eyes are not red.

        I think bursts of light can appear red, white and black when they’re not. I do not understand the physics of it. I think the more moderate colors such as grey (like hoodie) or blue (like jeans) or beige (like pants) do not do this as much as red, black and white do this.

        Little newborns have relatively undeveloped eyesight. They often say to buy toys that are black, white and red, in combination, to attract them the most. This might have some bearing on the light physics of the situation. The “white T-shirt” might have just been Fogen’s red rain-resistant jacket, seen from above, with glinting raindrops, porch lights, flashlights, and reflected light from people’s houses. Who knows?

    • seallison says:

      I just hope the truth eventually comes out. Maybe not during this trial but the follow-up with LE shenanigans and possible accomplice(s). Who knows. Maybe ShelLie will break the whole behind the scene wrongdoing wide open. Still hoping.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I think gz’s phone records and texting of February 26 will be revealing, seallison.

      • seallison says:

        What I cannot help thinking is that he had valuable evidence in the vehicle he was using and was driven away by Shelley at the scene. Who knows – notes, a second phone, a walkie-talkie, another laptop, etc. I think a valuable opportunity was lost.

        Perhaps, the post office receipt was for the damning evidence outside the scope of this case was packaged up and mailed to his older sister in Maryland.

      • Rachael says:

        What was their reason again for not checking the vehicle?

      • seallison says:

        Apparently, the police on scene did not realize he used a vehicle. This makes no sense to me given the fact that LE was on its way to meet with Fogen. I am sure a radio transmission would have indicated a vehicle was in play. Especially when one of the officers checked out two vehicles on the street – one identified as Fogens and the other with a private plate. Although it appears Fogen was scared stiff about repercussions, ShelLie drove off with the vehicle home. It seems he cared not that she was alone in a vehicle just used in a killing to an empty home. I mean, Osterman was there. He stayed with Fogen rather than escort ShelLie home. Something is not right here.

      • Xena says:

        Since GZ was going grocery shopping with only 40 cents in his pocket, it seems as though ShelLIE would have been in the truck with him with the credit cards — Unless he was not going anywhere other than to look for the guy whom Osterman called and told him about.

        • blushedbrown says:

          Hmmm. Good observation.

          • Mornin’ Ya’ll

            And yes it is a good observation….remember fogen said he did the grocery shopping on Sundays?….By himself?

            Who writes the shopping list? him or sheLie?

            Who does the cooking? he or sheLie?

            And no cash or credit cards to pay for the groceries he was going to purchase?

            I would like to know if any of you can document anything fogen has said that IS TRUE?

            From what I’ve seen and read he lies more than he tells the truth.

            I still can’t get over him lying to Serrino on the night of the murder that he had an AA degree…..an outright lie…..as is most all that spills from his piehole.

            If one is willing to lie about such a small thing to make themselves look better……how much more so would they be willing to lie to save their ass from prison?

          • blushedbrown says:


            I find it hard to believe that any man will do the shopping by himself. Generally speaking most men just tag along behind in the grocery store, or go to another department while the wife is shopping. Men despise grocery shopping.

            But we are talking about the Fogen, so going by Osterman’s report to the FBI, he said he was very frugal. The house was very thrifty. His words not mine. The why GZ spoke to Shellie in the jail house call, souded like he couldn’t trust her to do certain things. Shellie also made the point to him that if he doesn’t trust her to do certain
            things , then assign someone else to do it, then he hung up on her.

            He made sure his sister followed up on the things Shellie was doing. In another words, he thinks he is smarter then her and if doesn’t do it, it won’t get done right. Control. He has to have control over everything, even down to the money. So to me in this case, it is not far fetch that he did all the grocery shopping. He wants to make sure Shellie doesn’t spend money they don’t have and he wants to make sure he gets want he needs first, Shellie is secondary.

          • Roger that Blushed……..Did our shopping yesterday ( the grocery store is 20 miles away)…….Drop her off at the supermarket while I go and refill our kerosene cans…….fill up the Jeep…a few other errands…….and come back to the grocery store to pick her and her purchases up.

          • blushedbrown says:

            That’s a big 10-4, Pat.

          • I’ve mentioned I live 7 miles from the nearest “town”….

            That “town” consists of 2 gas stations / convenience stores, 1 bar, 1 coffee shop, a feed store and a post office. THAT’S IT

          • blushedbrown says:

            Wow, that’s a tiny town.

          • It used to be a train stop (not even tracks anymore) for the trains going to Cripple Creek and the gold mines.

          • NFS !!!!!!!

            So it can be implied that shellie was with him by those statements.
            And she would be the one then with the cash or credit cards…….

            OR? fogen’s full of shit about being on his way to get groceries….which does not surprise me in the least…..anything to avoid saying he was on patrol.

            Another thing I noticed in this was he spoke of it in absolutes…

            I’m also reading these comments about shellie…..the more I read the comments here, I’m more inclined to believe she was an unwilling participant.

            He’d already committed one murder. Maybe it was out of fear that she went along with him.

            She’s also the only Zim that hasn’t been all over the media.

          • blushedbrown says:

            He will never let her do an interview. She knows more then anyone else.

          • Xena says:

            @Patrick. According to Papa Zim, GZ and ShelLIE always did their grocery shopping on Sunday evenings. So, as you have stated, either GZ was on his way to Target with ShelLIE, or he wasn’t on his way to Target when he saw Trayvon. Truly, I don’t know if getting to the truth of that will be relevant in his case, but could but another nail in his lack of credibility coffin.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I do not believe that Shellie went with him, he left her behind, in case something went wrong, he’d still have an operational resource available. My “test” for this idea is, I think if she were there, she’d have moved the truck sooner and it wouldn’t have been there when the officer came around to check tags. She’d have been sitting in it and that might have drawn questions, since they were canvasing the neighborhood for witnesses.

            Also, the story about shopping didn’t come up until much later that night at the police station. He starts his story with leaving home to go shopping, and on his way to the front gate, he spots TM by FT’s place.

            There’s serious trouble with that story, as I noted very early on back in April or May. When you look at the neighborhood map, you see that RVC is pretty complex in that stretch of road, thus in the dark and the rain, you’d hardly be taking your eyes off the road to look about. Less, while moving some 20 to 30 ft/sec., turn your head 90 degrees to the left, to peer some 20 to 30 feet back from the roadway, to see if you could see anyone coming. The road is bending to the west, meaning that you have to constantly steer, then, just when you get to where he supposedly spots Trayvon standing some 15 to 20 feet back from the road in darkness, he’s got to make a 90 degree turn east.

            Makes you say which is it? Eh? Is he on his way to the store or on a hunting expedition? Obviously, if he sees TM there, he’s hunting. But then, the rest of his narrative of how they get over to the mail shed, is so false and time impossible, it has to be totally fabricated, thus when the cctv’s were analyzed by tchoupi, it came as no surprise that GZ never parked at the clubhouse. So, once we threw all that false junk out, we were left with GZ coming from home and going directly to the mail shed. That’s not going on a shopping trip.

            Marinade Dave’s walk through revealed that GZ couldn’t see into the mail shed before he should have gone out the front gate to the store. So, if he could not see anything to stop him, or distract him, he should have went out the gate to the store, but he doesn’t even motion towards the front gate, no slowing, no turning, just direct to the mail shed for a look.

            Now that we’ve seen how the mail shed is constructed, if TM were roaming around those mailboxes in the center, GZ coming up on the TTL or east side of the shed, would not have been able to see TM in there. I don’t know, perhaps the wind blows the drizzle in that side of the mail shed, so TM wanders to the other side of the mail boxes, which make a wide column in the center of the shed.

            GZ doesn’t see TM on his first pass, so he drives back over towards FT’s. But, before he gets there, he stops, turns around and goes back to the mail shed, and this time he sees TM. He does some maneuvering with his truck and TM suddenly gets the impression that he’s being followed. Something TM has never mentioned before, all the way back from the store and he’s been sheltering in the mail shed for several minutes already. Then GZ begins his NeN call.

            John has a good view of the mail shed, I think, so he could have been watching when GZ made his first pass and turned away. Then he called him back (speed dial?) and told him to come back ’cause TM’s there now.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, no money, no credit cards and most importantly when shopping for two people… NO LIST!!!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Instead of answers, all we’re getting is more questions. Now we need to know when GZ’s arms got covered with blood? I’m sure the EMT had no reason to lie. But… Wasn’t GZ handcuffed before he was put in the car? I didn’t see where anyone removed his handcuffs so the EMT’s could clean him up, so when and how did he remove his jacket and roll up his shirt sleeves, to reveal arms covered with blood?

          Obviously someone was knowledgeable enough to realize, when a person appears to be bleeding from wounds and is covered with blood, they simply assume that that blood is his, it never gets tested for dna id.

          Well, that gives me an idea… O’Mara wants to talk about a likely broken nose??? Okay, O’Mara, how about we contend that GZ was likely covered with animal blood? Two can play the “likely” game!
          Then we’ll watch as you start demanding evidence/reports/documents and tests. Sending your “likely” broken nose claims right down the drain.

          Remember, if you want your fiction accepted, you have to be willing to accept the other sides fiction without question as well.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr. BINGO! GZ also told Singleton that his arms were not bruised because his jacket protected him. So, how was Trayvon punching him in the face if GZ used his arms defensively?

            The longer we discuss this, the more I can see why Corey had a smile on her face when announcing that GZ was arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder.

          • His jacket was protecting him?…….what BS…

            Was the jacket made of chain mail or some such?

            I’ve been bruised through multiple layers of clothing…

            Not that I would or could ever feel any sympathy towards him…….

            He’s just looking more & more pathetic with each passing day…..

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Martial artist say that a mount position is extremely difficult to maintain, one has to be trained to keep from being upset, because it’s a very unstable position.

            So, the important take away is, GZ is on record saying that he did use his arms to defend himself. Which, not only means that TM could not have been raining down blows, but, he could also not have been striking his head.

            Not to mention that, with GZ’s sleeves covering his arms, the EMT’s should not have found his arms covered with blood. So, where is all this blood coming from? It’s beginning to sound like TM may have opened an artery, with his bare hands??? And somehow GZ’s protected arms are found covered in blood? Okay, who stored this blood where? Because it sure wasn’t coming from those little dings GZ had. More evidence of premeditation and planning?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            As I said before, the office of the SP has got to be one of the happiest places on earth to work over the next few months.
            They probably come to work singing and dancing and… well…
            yes, skipping! 😀

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            The only thing Corey has to fear is that, since GZ has done so much of her work for her, the judge may order that GZ be paid a salary! LOL

          • Oh he will be paid…..hourly though…..maybe 35 cents an hour picking cotton on the prison farm.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, I think Osterman is involved in this murder up to his beady little eyeballs. he just seems to me to be acting kind of jumpy and nervous, when ever he was discussing this case on Dr. Phil’s show. and why would he say that he took Fogen into his home on the night jin question because of the threats to his life.

        There were no threats being made on his life that night because, the story hadn’t even been reported on that night. the fool even told the lie about Fogen having a concussion when he know he didn’t have no such thing. yep, this beady eye, fish eyed fool is involved in this as well.

        • Xena says:


          @Xena, I think Osterman is involved in this murder up to his beady little eyeballs.

          IMO, Osterman, like Taaffe, laid some impressions on GZ. Remember in Osterman’s statement he said something along the lines that GZ isn’t street-smart? After watching and hearing Osterman promoting his book, it’s my impression that he described GZ in that manner to say that he could not teach GZ how to think for himself.

          There’s no doubt in my mind that Osterman sat with GZ and ShelLIE and coached him on his entire story. What Osterman failed to realize is that GZ did not tell him the entire story, neither the truth about everything — just like he tricked Osterman into giving him a graduation party although he had not graduated.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Well, we know that Osterman had a role to play, but he’s knowledgeable and careful so he’ll be hard to pin down unless someone cracks and spills on him. John, witness #6 on the other hand is so reprehensible in his dehumanizing conversation, which Fogen participates in, as Trayvon lays dead on the ground, is in it up to and over his eyeballs. As a deeply entrenched racist, he could not resist being a part of something like this, even if it was to mean the end of him.

    • Jun says:

      Another theory that came to my mind, was the same witnesses were attributing the man in the white shirt as Fogen, since he was reenacting in a white shirt

      Another give away, is W6 even said a red or white shirt….

      so it could very well be just Fogen and distorted colors from lighting

      but we can leave out the possibility that someone could have ambushed the kid too

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Maybe we’ll get lucky and the prosecution will figure it out.

      • seallison says:

        However, the EMT indicated Fogens arms and hands were covered in blood. Odd — long sleeve shirt and jacket. Singleton asked him if he had any injuries to his arms and he said no. She said it must have been his jacket and shirt that prevented injury. So blood on his arms makes no sense. Someone is lying.

      • roderick2012 says:

        seallison:However, the EMT indicated Fogens arms and hands were covered in blood. Odd — long sleeve shirt and jacket.

        The blood came from Trayvon.

        Trayvon was also the source of the blood that covered his head.

  48. Jun says:

    Also, there is the man in the white shirt…

    so on top of being terrorized by Fogenhats with a gun, there was a potential second accomplice… that is an already unfair battle, made even more unfair with as secondary aggressor

  49. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I have been reading past postings here in December that I missed. I just discovered logi had been posting here the last week December.

    I then went back and double checked to make sure she is our Trayvon team member from Newsvine (under MSNBC) who posted to all of you here on September 25, 2012 about our team’s uncovering that gz’s “wrist lock” was proof that gz did not shoot Trayvon in self defense. I indeed did confirm this.

    Logi is our Newsvine team member known to us as “icurhoods”.

    I want all of you to know that I consider Logi a very close friend and an absolutely wonderful, caring, and fun person. Someone here doubted that she was an African American. The answer is yes, she is. She is an EMT and very early on speculated that gz’s head injuries might have been the result of his head scraping into a tree branch.

    Logi (icurhoods) has been a strong Trayvon advocate dedicated to seeking justice. Over the months she has studied released evidence carefully and used it logically and to advantage to prove that that the evidence incriminates gz.

    If you are reading this, Logi (icurhoods), I want you to know that I miss you and send you my love. I hope your broken foot has healed by now.

    • seallison says:

      I remember Logi – valuable contributor!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Yes, seallison 🙂 ….and a valuable contributor on the MSNBC newsvine.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I also want to point out that logi identified herself as “icur” when she posted here on September 25, 2012 about the wristlock……..

        I am pointing this out because I would never reveal any alternate identity used by any of you on a different blog. It is up to each of you to reveal that if you so choose.

        I have brought up Logi to all of you because I feel she needs to be vouched for after the heated discussion in December that I just saw.

        By the way, I agree with the point Logi was making…..that is, that someone of one ethnic background should not expound on how a person of another ethnic background feels about his or her experience.

        Correct me if I am wrong, but I think our professor banned Logi not realizing she had made a valid point during the heated discussion between Malisha and jun.

        I know that our professor would agree with Logi’s point in that he himself posted the following—

        [[[[Frederick Leatherman says:
        December 29, 2012 at 12:00 pm
        I am a Caucasian male. I learned long ago that when the subject of racism comes up, I shut my mouth and listen to what others who have experienced it have to say.]]]]]

        • Xena says:


          Correct me if I am wrong, but I think our professor banned Logi not realizing she had made a valid point during the heated discussion between Malisha and jun.

          There was an expression of personal name calling. She was banned for calling the professor a “fool.” She reached out to me and I offered a suggestion but have not heard back from her. Because my attention is in several different areas now, I’ve not had time to follow up with her either, and for that I am sorry.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        correction……”her heated discussion WITH”

      • Rachael says:

        I don’t know anything about that discussion, other than I saw Professor state that Logi was banned.

        I have a confession to make though. I am white but sometimes I check the box “other” just because.

      • seallison says:

        Oh no, I didn’t know Logi was banned. During that discussion, I saw nothing Logi said to warrant a ban. That is too bad.

      • seallison says:

        Logi being banned is not my decision to make. However, Yuhtc, I do vouch for Logi and I knew exactly where he or she was coming from and was correct to speak up. Logi, I miss your comments as well. I am sorry to have heard about the negative consequences of your speaking out and taking a stand.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I am white, also, Rachael. I pray that the day will come that attitudes will change, and it will no longer be necessary to check boxes.

        However, with the attitudes still out there I think that we still need
        “boxes” because I think the country still needs Affirmative Action.

        I am also distressed that a key section of the Voting Rights Act is being challenged this year and the challenge is going to be heard by the Supreme Court.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        seallison, I am glad you also saw where Logi was coming from with her comments.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        On that topic I am going to try to find a discussion two of had on the MSNBC newsvine site, seallison and post it to you if I find it.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        two of us

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Xena, that was someone else who called our professor a “fool” and was thus banned.

        • Xena says:

          Xena, that was someone else who called our professor a “fool” and was thus banned.

          After I read this, I went back to check the “handle” in case I was mistaken. It was Logi who was banned for calling the professor a “fool.”

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks for finding out, Xena. I just came back from a fruitless trip trying to find the person who was banned for saying “fool”.

        • Xena says:


          Thanks for finding out, Xena. I just came back from a fruitless trip trying to find the person who was banned for saying “fool”.

          No problem. It’s my impression that Logi had not read all the comments associated with the subject to know that Jun was told to no longer use the “n” word here as acceptable, and stop discussion. This isn’t my blog and I don’t make decisions here, so all I could do when Logi contacted me was lend some emotional support and suggestions.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Ah…thanks to you, Xena, I now have the full picture of what happened. Thanks so much!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Xena, I feel sorry for Logi. I am going to take a break from posting.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Okay, seallison, Here is what I wrote to a zimmie who I thought (at the time I posted…was trying to make an effort not to be racist…..I was trying to help him understand that when people pointed out to him certain things….it was an opportunity to grow)—

      xxxxxkeep on your journey. Be open to guidance.

      I remember in college during my teacher training days, when I wanted to help chicanos so much, I unknowingly used incorrect language in a college classroom presentation. I had used a word like “disadvantaged” (or something like that) instead of “lower socio-economic standing” (don’t quite recall) ………and the chicano students in my college class really jumped on me after I finished.

      I returned to my seat with my eyes filling with tears………..but, xxxxx……I used that experience as a learning experience. I reflected on what they said and why. I became a better person. I also learned that good intentions were not enough, but that understanding …….really understanding a community and their thoughts…….would make me a better person and a better contributor to society.

      Your journey has the same possibilities, xxxx…….one step at a time.

      All of what follows is the reinforcement to my comment that my friend, DOCJT wrote——

      [[[[There you go, YAHTC. “Wanting to help” is nothing more than patronizing unless you approach it from the perspective of the person you are trying to help. Otherwise, you come across as having an air of superiority. That air of superiority has it’s foundation in racist beliefs, and racist beliefs lead to racist actions. Whether it is intentional or not, whether you even realize that it is racist or not, even if you are trying not to be racist, it can still be racist. That is what xxxxx seems to have a hard time understanding.

      One of the most conscious attempts to NOT be racist can be found in the statement, “color doesn’t matter”. Sounds very tolerant on the surface. But that is not reality. Color does matter, as can be evidenced by the existence of white privilledge, the inequities in applied justice, and the social inequities that still exist in this country. Color is obvious. A Black person cannot walk out their door and not be seen as a Black person. And because of that, and because of the amount on unconscious and covert racism that still exists, color very much DOES matter. Just ask Trayvon Martin’s family.

      African American families have to teach their children about the existence of racism from the time those children are small because it does exist and they will encounter it. It is simply a fact of life. It isn’t taught with hate. It is simply taught as a fact of life. Just like George Zimmerman decided that Trayvon Martin was “suspicious” based on nothing more than his race and his hoodie the night of February 26, 2012, young African American and biracial children have to be taught that this kind of thinking exists and how to protect themselves from it. Caucasian families do not have to have these conversations with their sons and daughters. Racism is usually only addressed from the perspective of how not to be racist, not how racism affects them personally every day. It is the difference between being the receiver and being the giver. And it is a huge difference. Until you can begin to look at things from the perspective of the receiver you will never understand the perspective of someone of a minority status.

      Let me be clear, I am using “you” in the generic, not specific as to one person.

      I agree with one thing that xxxxx has said, “A person can only take so much.” What xxxxx needs to do is take that experience of what he has gotten on this forum, and multiply it by 200 years of history, then multiply that by every single day of his life, and then, maybe then, he will begin to understand the experience of the African American in this country.]]]]]

      • seallison says:

        Wow! Well said and oh so right. There is nothing I could add or delete to your comment. Thank you for adding this to this posting.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        seallison…Everything UNDER the line was written by DOCJT—I only wrote the part about my college experience which took up only a third of the above post.

        In other words, all the words that follow “There you go, Yahtc, are DOCJT’s words.

        And, yes, what she wrote IS well said and so right!

      • seallison says:

        I am taking the post as a whole because it belongs together and still thank you for posting it in its entirety.

    • I’ll tell you why she was banned.

      i didn’t really include the other supporting comments from a few others directed at me or logi or whoever else, that were also kinda insinuating the Professor had some biased double standards that they got all offended by.
      but a few select people felt the need to go on and on with personal insults to me and then Logi decided to insult Professor when he hadn’t even seen the video i posted a link to.

      imo, she was rude and out of line by calling people hypocrites and needed to be respectful enough to realise you don’t sit there and call your host a damn fool! EVER!

      Logi says:

      January 4, 2013 at 11:53 am

      I agree. I find it interesting that someone mentions natzis and the prof says not to mention that word. However nigger, chink and this video are allowed. I’ve had people argue (Jun) how they use the word nigger as an endearing term. The swastika was used worldwide as a peaceful symbol till the natzis got it and used it as a symbol of hate. Does that mean I should be accepting of someone wearing one on a t-shirt, or a tat? Of course not because it would be considered insensitive, why is there no sensitivity when it comes to Blacks? Because some of you on this site are hypocrites.

      Frederick Leatherman says:

      January 4, 2013 at 3:47 pm

      I never said anything about Nazis.

      I said I do not want people using the word “Nigga” because I and others here, apparently including you, find it objectionable.

      Next time, get your facts straight before you shoot your mouth off and make a fool out of yourself.

      seallison says:

      January 4, 2013 at 12:32 pm

      Logi – I am with you on that. Two thumbs up for recognizing it when it rears its ugly head and addressing it head on.

      shannoninmiami says:

      January 4, 2013 at 12:58 pm

      so even though i warned you about the video, and you 3 decide to watch it anyway.
      weird how human nature is.


      logi says:

      January 4, 2013 at 2:17 pm

      It seems that the tree house would be a more appropriate place for your video. You know it’s racist because you warned people. I just couldn’t believe you would be stupid enough to post this on a blog that is … Oh never mind.

      logi says:

      January 4, 2013 at 7:35 pm

      @Leatherman Someone was making jokes about nazis and you came in and you said “No joking about Nazis” I would take the time to look for it, but you’ve probably have taken it down by now so you don’t look like the fool. Bottom line, You did say it.


      Frederick Leatherman says:

      January 4, 2013 at 8:46 pm

      I do not appreciate being called a fool. You need to learn some manners because you are devious, obnoxious and insulting.

      You called me out for not putting an end to the use of the N-word after I put an end to the use of the N-word.

      Now you call me a fool.

      Bottom line: You’re banned.


      Frederick Leatherman says:

      January 4, 2013 at 9:18 pm

      Shannon: I just saw this video and deleted it because I have asked people not to joke about prison rape.


      shannoninmiami says:

      January 4, 2013 at 10:58 pm

      i’m sorry that. i really didn’t mean to cause a problem for anyone, especially not any more stuff for you to deal with.

      • Shannon…..a little history for you……I have a brass web belt buckle with an inch & a quarter swastika embossed in it….


        Not in the least…..it was the unit insignia of the US 45th Inf. Division prior to 1939 when they changed it to the Thunderbird.

        The unit was originally formed from the southwest states….primarily NM, AZ & Okla………many were Native Americans to whom the swastika was a good luck sign.

        History is interesting….to me at least 🙂

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Shannoninmiami, thanks for posting the history of Logi’s comments.

        I feel so sorry Logi (icurhoods)……she is not devious nor is she obnoxious.

        I think she probably had the word “fool” on her mind because she might have been hurt when our professor wrote earlier to her—–
        [[[ “Next time, get your facts straight before you shoot your mouth off and make a fool out of yourself.” ]]]

        I am sad……I need to take a break for a while.

      • Jun says:

        The swastika is actually a worldwide used symbol, used by all cultures. It is because of the Nazi’s no one really uses it anymore, but in some really ancient temples, it is still around, and some old jewelry. They even have the symbol in some Buddhist temples.

      • cielo62 says:

        I remember this bru-ha-ha. Another valuable lesson that seems to NOT have been learned is that LANGUAGE CHANGES OVER TIME. Why should people be offended by the way words USED to be used? Logi insisted that certain words were offensive now and in all places, have always been offensive, and will continue to be offensive in perpetuity and that is simply just wrong. The argument continued WAY past the point where the professor had called it a done subject. \ It’s easy to lose track of a discussion on a blog, where the the threads overlap or jump in random order on the page.

  50. Jun says:

    I do not get those idiots. Trayvon’s character is of no relevance because it does not prove what happened that night. Trayvon’s school records are not going to prove Fogen acted in self defense. If they are complaining about Fogen’s dirty history being used, well, the simplest thing to do is, do not bring up Trayvon’s records at all during trial, and nothing of Fogen’s will come up, and do not bring up Fogen’s character at all, and the trial will focus on what happened that night. Character evidence door can only be opened by the defense. It is Fogenhats’ choice to go that route or not. If Omara chooses to fling mud at Trayvon, and remember this is not divorce court, the state will rebuttal it with evidence that proves that Omara’s assertion is false and then all of Fogen’s character evidence comes in against him.

  51. acemayo says:

    George Zimmerman’s defense is Martin’s school records.
    These are not bobby words
    but Comments by others
    They don’t have to demonize Trayvon. He that just fine all by himself!
    Not only should his school records be made public. but his juvenile crminal record also !!!!
    I’m just glad no one important was killed.
    GZ in reality probably saved some humans from being the future victims of this criminal. Our society owes George a debt of thanks for removing the parasite trayvon from our midst
    Or they have a ton of evidence to prove everything they have said all along. Team Trayvon is coming apart at the seams. You are losing supporters every day. Wait until the few sane ones left find out they have been lied to this whole time
    However, should that happen, the only evidence against Mr Zimmerman is that he shot Trayvon Martin in self defense after being violently attacked. Just the evidence on the night of the incident overwhelmingly supports ZImmerman called the non-emergency police line to report an unknown, suspicious person lurking about a private gated community. Continued requests for police to involve themsleves and intervene with this suspicious person went uncommitted until Mr Zimmerman was attacked and subsequently shot his unknown attacker in self-defense.
    Ot they dredge up everybodies’ past and and lack opf parental guidence and control over Trayvon Martin and ultimately, Zimmerman will be exonerated anyway…
    teaboy, it was Zimmerman’s longtime private, posted, gated coummunity that had had recent numberous burgularies, thefts and vandalism occur in it that was 250 miles from Trayvon’s home of residence, custodial mother, friends and school. Zimmerman called the police to investigate an unknown, suspicous individual luking about the posted, private, gated community. Trayvon called his girlfriend 250 mikes away to brag about his expactations of beating this little white dude into a bloody mess and then roll him. Zimmerman was violently attacked and legally defended himself with lethal force. Trayvom was an unknown, John Doe until his father sobered up and decided to look for him the day after the shooting.
    Lawrence, come back when you read up on the issue and have something truthful and relevent to say. Trayvon had every right to be in that “Gated, Private Community” George never identified himself as a figure of authority, it doesn’t matter HOW many burglaries the community had, it still gives George ZERO authority to follow, engage and shoot and unarmed human who was not committing any crimes. At no time was it reported that 160 pound Trayvon was bragging about beating up a grown man. There is NO proof that George was violently attacked and that Trayvon wasn’t defending himself from a stranger with a gun. Trayvon was a 17 year old boy with candy and juice. The son of Sybrina and Tracy and brother and friend to many who under no circumstances deserved to die at the hands of a paranoid vigilante.
    Love the way you make up your own facts. No where it was said that Zimmerman chased, stalked, or harassed Trayvon. Following someone you think is about to commit a crime is not a crime. The crime occurred when Trayvon confronted Zimmerman and sucked punched him. If Zimmerman had not called the police I might just take some of what you say with a grain of salt.
    But Trayvon was the bad guy here and Zimmerman was well within the law to report him to the police and follow him so he could point him out to the police when they arrive. The “boy” wanted to be like a thug so he died like a thug. No loss to our society.
    It is about time. The hipocritical claim that Trayvon Martin’s past is not relevant to the defense of George Zimmerman is screamed from all the dirt-mongers and riacists who claim all fabricatoins and rumors about George Zimmmerman before the self-defense shooting are relavent.
    Now, when this goes to trial, if it makes it to a trial court, the first three defense witnesses will be Tracy Martin, Subrina Fulbrite and a school employee with knowledge of Trayvon’s troubled social and disfunctional problems at school and his home.
    Probable questions: Why was Trayvon Martin left unattended and un supervised to run the streets wiithout even a key to return to the condo owned by the girlfriend of Tracy martin who just recently moved in with her?
    Why was Trayvon not getting counseling with his mother’s particiaption in Miami where Trayvon lived and went to school?
    Why was Trayvon not missed until the next day after his death instead of the night he was shot? Why would a paremnt not care about their innocent child’s absence especially after the child was sent to them for “man-training” and couselgin to change his behaviour in order to get back in school?
    How manuy times had Trayvon got into trouble before for showing disrespect and/or violence towrad authority figures? etc.,
    The records are relevant because they shed light on Trayvon’s character and his propensity for violence. That character and propensity *were* there that night regardless of whether George knew about them or not.
    possible drug use/possession/selling, possession of stolen items, assault, possesion of burglary tools. And these are just the things that have leaked out so far.
    Most of his transgressions are sealed and protected because of his age, or charges were dropped.
    The fact that the family lawyers were so adamant about keeping those records hidden suggest there is quite a bit of negative history for him.
    connemara, that would be based on the evidence, if GZ attacked TM why are there NO injuries other then the GSW to TM? Usually in a fight there are injuries to both combatants unless the first person gets in a great sucker punch and takes advantage. Do you disagree? Please show any evidence or anything that indicates GZ attacked TM.
    This is bobby writiing I wish most of these persons
    will write to this blog
    so we can discuss the in and outs of what they feel

    • Xena says:

      In other words, they confirm that GZ profiled Trayvon Martin.

    • Rachael says:

      They are such vicious rabid I don’t even know whats. The things they say are horrid and shocking. I have read some things that I swear have left me scarred for life to think one would say of another, much less people who have lost their son. I am not a violent person. I do not believe in violence, yet when I read that stuff, I sit here and cry – I cry long and hard. Not only out of pain, but out of anger and frustration that I can’t do something violent to them – them who hide behind a computer and spew sewage that pollutes humanity.

    • Jun says:

      My only reply to all that mess is where is this proof of Trayvon being a future criminal, when he was not even a criminal at present?

      What would juvenile or school records prove? Oh yeah, they would prove what happened at school and around Miami, not what happened in Sanford Florida that night

      When did Trayvon commit a burglary with any alleged tools? Oh yeah he had jewelry that was not stolen, was even confirmed to be not stolen by police, and he had a flathead screwdriver, which many people in the country have, so according to them, everyone in America is a burglar

      Trayvon had severe global brain edema on top of a gun shot wound. There is also evidence that not only did Fogen target, stalk, terrorize, and threaten the boy, Fogen also attacked first after confronting the unarmed kid, and then killing him. Also how does injuries prove anything when Fogen barely had anything, only superficial scratches and tree branch scratches? An MMA fighter beat the crap out of a car jacker and the MMA fighter had no injuries either and he was found justified in beating up the person with the gun, so how do they know that it will not happen here, since Fogen went at Trayvon, with a gun? So kids are supposed to just stand there and take a complete stranger stalking and chasing them everywhere they try to run to, and just submit to a creepy stranger’s will, especially one who has a gun? The only person in any danger of death or great bodily harm was Trayvon, from a gun shot, so he had every right to scream and try to prevent himself from getting killed by the defendant.

      Also, what about Fogen’s long record? The state has not even included it’s rebuttal, which is on top of what has been released to the public, and they can also include Fogen’s high school records, and juvenile records too if they want to go there

      • Xena says:

        My only reply to all that mess is where is this proof of Trayvon being a future criminal, when he was not even a criminal at present?

        You can’t argue with bigotvoyants.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Oh, now there’s a wonderful idea for O’Mara… He can stand in front of the jury and explain why TM had to be killed today, to prevent him from becoming a super criminal tomorrow! With a persuasive argument like that, it would be a serious wonder if Judge Nelson, didn’t order him carted off to a rubber room. Toxic GZ will have struck yet again! Anyone have the count of how many lives this creep has ruined so far?

          • Xena says:

            Toxic GZ will have struck yet again! Anyone have the count of how many lives this creep has ruined so far?

            Let’s see;
            1. Bill Lee
            2. Wolfinger
            3-5 Papa and Mama Zim and grandmother
            7. Brother
            8. ShelLIE
            9. Mark Osterman
            10. (Who knows whether Sondra is still employed or not? I can only imagine that the company does not want her telling clients her real name now.)
            11. His former Landlord (the townhouse is still vacant)
            12. The HOA (no one wants to purchase property in that community now.)
            13. O’Mara
            14. West

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            15. Joe Oliver
            16. Frank Taaffe
            17. Officer T. Smith
            18. “John” aka Witness #6
            Any more?

      • cielo62 says:

        Jun~ Oh I DO so hope they go there! I want to know those sealed juvi records GZ has, along with his known and suspected gang involvement! Inquiring minds want to know!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        2nd ditto

      • Rachael says:

        “. . . and they can also include Fogen’s high school records, and juvenile records too if they want to go there.”

        Are you sure about that? They can go back over 10 years like that? I sure hope so. That could be interesting!

        • blushedbrown says:

          Acually I think they did request and get his school records from Manassas, VA. IIRC, I saw that in the discovery, not the actual school records but that they received them when they got his College records. If I find the information will post for you.

        • blushedbrown says:


          Not sure if this comment belongs to you, but someone was asking if the state has GZ High School Records. No media outlet that I can find published the High school records of GZ, but did write about them.

          Mr. Leatherman get’s a mention in this article.


          Excerpt taken from NY Daily News:

          http ://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-seeks-stand-ground-hearing-defense-killing-trayvon-martin-article-1.1132501#ixzz2393uIMju

          The wanna-be cop got Ds in two key criminal justice classes — Introduction to Criminal Justice and in a juvenile delinquency course.

          And he got a C in a higher-level course called “Evil Minds, Violent Predators.”

          Zimmerman, who was on academic probation when he was booted from the school in the wake of the shooting of Martin, did get an A in criminal litigation and a B in criminal investigation, the transcripts show.

          But Zimmerman’s overall grade point average was dragged down by his abysmal math and science grades, which included a pair of Fs in two algebra classes.

          Zimmerman’s high school transcript also revealed poor marks in math and science — and, more surprisingly, his Spanish grades were in the low 80s, despite the fact that Zimmerman is half-Peruvian.

          • cielo62 says:

            Blushed brown- one thing I’d like to add though. Just because you can SPEAK Spanish doesn’t mean you can do grammar, read with comprehension or spell worth beans. I was cocky in high school when I took Spanish … Until I failed my 1st exam! Gee! I actually have to study! It was a lesson worth learning.

            Sent from my iPod

      • Jun says:

        I am confident they can get his school records. I do not know if it is necessary, but I believe they can. They found information on the defendant, I never ever thought they would ever get, so their investigation follows the leaving of no stone unturned philosophy. I was just saying if that door gets opened by Fogenhats, the door on his closet gets blown wide open. I would prefer they stay on topic of the murder though. I feel they should go over his habit of manipulating others by calling authorities on them and they could use some character evidence to show some intent and motive on Fogenhats’ part.

      • kindheart101 says:


        “And he got a C in a higher-level course called “Evil Minds, Violent Predators.”

        That’s only because they made him look in a mirror while taking the test!

      • roderick2012 says:

        @Xena @ January 17, 2013 at 1:54 pm

        I am sorry but everyone on your list volunteered to lend their voice and reputations and support to assist George in his attempt to avoid responsibility again

        The real victims of George are:

        1) Trayvon
        2) Trayvon’s relatives
        3) Witness #9
        4) The woman George injured during his bouncer days
        5) The women George abused
        6) The ex co-worker that George harassed

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          That misses the point, these people volunteer with hopes of success not failure. And they certainly didn’t volunteer to be drawn into a vortex. So we’re counting anyone and everyone who GZ’s association has dragged down. The people you mention were hurt by contact, they were not dragged down by choosing to associate with GZ in any effort to come out on top in some way.

          • roderick2012 says:

            Are you serious?

            George’s father got to go on Faux News and slam President Obama then he and Mama Zimmerman started a begging website after they saw how much George’s defense fund website raked in.

            Robert is trying to be the White Hispanic Oprah by appearing on all of these racist talk shows.

            Osterman tried to make a buck at George’s expense by writing that book which will definitely hurt George when the State calls Osterman to the witness stand and asks him questions about what George told him on the way home after he left the police station the morning after the shooting.

            Frank Taaffe is getting his shine by showing his alcoholic racist mug on every tv program which will tolerate him.

            So no I don’t see these people as victims.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Go back up thread and read, we aren’t saying they’re victims. We’re simply counting the people who associated with GZ, or who chose to take his side, and were dragged down for their efforts. People who got hurt by coming into contact with GZ is another story again. We were just counting the people who Toxic George dragged into trouble as their reward for their support.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      It is very upsetting to see these postings by the zimmies POLLUTING our blog!

    • cielo62 says:

      Sick. And the dumbest thing is that each and every comment has ZERO factual evidence to support it.

    • Malisha says:

      The quote I find most telling is this one:

      How manuy times had Trayvon got into trouble before for showing disrespect and/or violence towrad authority figures? etc.,

      First of all, exactly who was the alleged “authority figure” that Trayvon Martin was expected to respect on 2/26/2012? I can’t imagine that “authority figure” would be the white Hispanic man who was following him around in the dark and refusing to identify himself. To me, an authority figure has no problem identifying not only himself but his or her purpose.

      Secondly, what “disrespect” was Trayvon showing? If he did exactly as Fogen said he did, and questioned Fogen about what HE was doing, that was not disrespect because Fogen was responsible to identify himself immediately upon seeing Trayvon Martin in the community. Secondly, if Fogen answered Trayvon’s initial inquiry about his “problem” by saying, as he claimed he said, “No, I don’t have a problem,” HE was showing disrespect, and not Trayvon. He needed to answer by saying, honestly, “Yes I have a problem. I saw you out there a minute ago and I phoned the police because I thought you were up to no good. So that is my problem.”

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Good post, Malisha!

      • Rachael says:

        effn demonizers!!!!

      • Jun says:

        Yes, when did

        “Unidentified, complete strangers, who call you a coons/punks and an asshole, who stalk you by their car, in the dark of the night, and then proceed to chase you on foot to wherever you run to, only to confront you when they catch you, and attack you”

        become authority?

        So disrespect = telling a complete stranger who jumped on you, to get off, and inquiring why they were stalking you?

        So we are supposed to let strangers just come at us with their guns and kids are just supposed to stand there and be submissive, and not try to get away or get help or defend themselves?

        What’s worse is in that one sentence, the person made 3 grammatical errors…

        • Xena says:

          So we are supposed to let strangers just come at us with their guns and kids are just supposed to stand there and be submissive, and not try to get away or get help or defend themselves?

          @Jun. Replace “we” with “Blacks” and “kids” with “Blacks.” It’s the mindset of White Supremacists that Blacks were suppose to know their place.

      • Kelly Payne says:


    • acemayo…..Words straight from the Outhouse. I’ve read them all too…….when I’ve been hovering over their site…and I come away with a headache. Going over there and reading their take on the evidence is weirder than going through a Ripley’s Believe It or Not Museum.

    • Kelly Payne says:


  52. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    Trayvons school records….What could they possibly show? His grades have nothing to do with this case, and neither does his attendance, so their only hope is to find something in any discipline reports on file. I get the impression that they found nothing showing Trayvon was agressive or violent, but can’t let on to that, so instead they act mysterious in their little announcement. Which, by the way, I find that announcement interesting considering the conversations that have been going on here the past two days about why most hate Fogen and his family and how they support Fogen supporters for the way they “demonize” Trayvon.

    I have a question that has probably already been asked and answered, but let’s say Trayvon was suspended in 9th grade for being in a fight and MOM brings this up in court, does that open the door for the prosecution to bring up Fogens past history of violence?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      You have stately exactly what I have felt, ChrisNY-Laurie, when you write…….” I get the impression that they found nothing showing Trayvon was agressive or violent, but can’t let on to that, so instead they act mysterious in their little announcement.”

      • ladystclaire says:

        It’s just a low down dirty shame as to the extent that this attorney will stoop to, in order to help Thugboat beat his murder rap. it its true that O’Mara sat down with his family and told them that Fogen is going to prison for his crime, then why don’t he stop with the Trayvon bashing that he is doing and, just help them cope with it the best way they can. instead of him doing that, he is keeping the flames of hate toward the victim and his family stirred up.

        They themselves should also just spend as much time as possible with him while he is on the outside. if it’s true that they have seen the hard evidence that the state has against him, they should face up to the fact that he bought this all on himself and, now the state of Florida will be his guardians for several years to come all because of who and what he is. you just can’t kill a person and a kid at that, all the while thinking you were entitled to do so and, that you are being picked on by those who know you are guilty.

        If anyone had a bad upbringing between Fogen and Trayvon, Fogen would be the one to take an honorable mention in that category. his parents never allowed him the be accountable for his wrong doing and, IMO that is no way to raise a child. he is the way he is today because of his parents.

    • Jun says:

      Yep. Everything on Fogenhats comes in once he opens that door. The state cant open the door, so they will just focus on facts. If Fogenhats opens the door, they will go at Fogenhats for everything. It is Fogenhats’ choice.

      • Xena says:

        If Fogenhats opens the door, they will go at Fogenhats for everything. It is Fogenhats’ choice.

        Yep, and a rebuttal witness for the State just might be the person who beat his butt causing the wounds that were healing on 2/26/12.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Shellie? LOL

      • Rachael says:

        Good one!

      • groans says:

        Jun, could you please share the website where the 20+-item list (that you posted above) came from? Thanks.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Just how much longer is this judge going to allow O’Mara and Fogen to keep trying this case in the court of public opinion? also, what about the medical records that were suppose to be given to the state concerning Fogen? this judge needs to stick to her trial date whether the defense is ready or not. they have had just as much time as the state to get their waddling duck (fogen) in a row instead of going on the internet looking at the comments by unhinged racist whites and, taking their advice.

        This is getting out of hand and it’s up to judge Nelson to put a stop to the defense NOW!

        Lying O’Mara wanted those school records for one reason and one reason only and, that was to find some kind of dirt on this kid just so he can broadcast it for his followers. Judge Nelson do your job and stop this LUNATIC NOW. shut him up once and for all.

        Just as the kids at Sandy Hook didn’t deserve what happened to them, Trayvon Martin didn’t either. he was not bothering Fogen or anyone else for that matter and for these racist whites to say the things that they are saying is shameful to this country.

      • Kelly Payne says:


      • Lonnie Starr says:

        As I said before, this is worse for GZ than it is for the prosecution. Since, once they’re finished and come up with nothing useful, they have to go quiet about the school records. But, the fact that they asked for and were allowed to review them, remains a fact in evidence. Thus it can be used in closing statements. Just another arrow in the SP’s already full-to-bursting quiver.

        Or, if you prefer, another nail in GZ coffin! He’s toast my friends!
        All that remains to be seen is, how many more are going to go down along with him.

    • Jun says:

      I did not think they would find anything myself

      and it seems a little depraved IMO to go through a murdered victim’s school records, since they are a kid, to try and prove a self defense claim, which is fairly bogus one at that

      • Tee says:

        I guess it means that the state has a right to go all the way back to X High school days that would be interesting don’t you think?

        • @ Tee…..

          They would be totally interesting…….Being as his parents seem to have booted him out as soon as they could after graduation…..In my mind that would indicate that there had already been ongoing problems with fogen from an early age.

        • blushedbrown says:


          The State did. They inadvertently published his high school records along with his college records, along with the picture of Trayvon’s dead body. I think some media sites published them, like OS. Not sure if they are still out there.

    • Rachael says:

      I do not see how being suspended for “a” fight in 9th grade proves violent tendencies or attacks of unprovoked anger. There would need to be a whole lot more than “a” fight. Seriously, what male makes it through high school without 1 fight? And these days, most schools suspend both kids regardless of who “started” it. So if something like that happened, they would be very foolish to bring it up because it would backfire on them badly.

      • With the name of Patrick……you can only imagine how many times I was called Patty. Patricia or Patsy.

        I was raised with the sticks and stones attitude.

        When the verbal insults didn’t work…. and they proceeded to attack my physically? all bets were off………3rd grade I took out a young mans 2 front teeth that he just growing in…..me being the poor kid school….I was labeled the aggressor…….

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:


        I agree it would not make Trayvon a thug or a violent person, but I can see MOM trying to use it anyway to make him look that way.

        I was only thinking of possibilities if there was something like that in his records. Just thinking ahead…I’m am, unfortunaetly, a “what if” kind of person. Think positive, but always be prepared for the worst.