Was Trayvon Martin a Peaceful and Non-violent Person?

I write today regarding a game within the game. I am specifically referring to trial by ambush despite discovery rules that require the prosecution to basically turn over everything it has to the defense long before trial.

My inspiration to write about this subject comes from a series of questions asked by Diaryofasuccessfulloser, who wanted to know where to find evidence that Trayvon was a peaceful and non-violent person in the discovery that has been released.

You can look but you will not find much.

The discovery rules require the prosecution to identify the witnesses it intends to call and to provide copies of their statements to the defense and to the public.

Those statements do not necessarily include all of the information obtained from those witnesses. Defense counsel have a duty to investigate their cases and that includes tasking an investigator to interview the witnesses or to be present and take notes when the lawyer interviews them. Florida permits the use of depositions under oath in criminal cases.

Interviews and depositions provide an opportunity to obtain information not included in the statements and reports.

The best source of information about Trayvon’s non-violent and peaceful nature is his family and friends like Dee Dee. She described him that way to Benjamin Crump and to Bernie de la Rionda. So did the librarian where he used to study after school. His parents have described him that way publicly.

Note that the defense, which has been trying its case in the court of public opinion, has not produced any evidence at all to support its claim that he was an aggressive martial arts enthusiast who picked fights and bullied others. Obviously his school records contained no information to support that claim or the defense would have shouted it from the tree house.

According to the complaint filed by the security/investigation firm, the investigators did not find out anything useful to the defense about Trayvon. We do not know what they were tasked to do, but given the importance of such evidence to support the defendant’s claim, I suspect they looked for such evidence, but did not find it.

The absence of evidence to support the defense claim might reasonably be considered evidence that he was not an aggressive martial arts enthusiast who picked fights and bullied others.

That absence of evidence is consistent with what we have heard from his family and Dee Dee.

There are other witnesses too. I vaguely recall his former football coach describing him that way, for example.

In other words, you have to read between the lines sometimes because the prosecution is not required to document all of its evidence.

Remember that most witness statements and reports will never be admitted into evidence because most of them are hearsay. The evidence in court will consist of the exhibits admitted into evidence and the testimony of the witnesses under oath

Witness statements and reports rarely contain the whole story. They are like movie trailers and serve as a starting point to find out what the witness knows. Only a fool would assume that they contain all of the relevant information that a witness knows.

The prosecution has no obligation to reduce all of that information to writing and share it with the defense. The prosecution is only obligated to disclose exculpatory evidence to the defense and this evidence is not exculpatory. Evidence that Trayvon was peaceful and non-violent hurts the defense. Therefore, the prosecution has no duty to reveal it to the defense, unless it is in a statement.

I suspect the prosecution has a lot of evidence that has not been recorded or written down anywhere in a report.

Part of the game is to conceal as well as reveal only that which you are required to reveal.

The only way the defense can discover the information not included in the reports is to use an investigator to find it or acquire it during a deposition.

Unfortunately, the defense does not appear to have any investigators or experts to assist the lawyers.

This is one reason why I have been so critical of the defense effort. With the exception of the one report we know about, which they did not pay for, the defense appears to have sacrificed the use of investigators in favor of maintaining and paying for the defendant’s comfort and unnecessary security. In a case where the forensics likely will determine the outcome, the defense also appears to have sacrificed the use of experts for the same two reasons.

With O’Mara potentially indebted to the security/investigation firm for $27,000 and not having been paid a cent for the work he has performed, I can only shake my head in amazement that the priorities in this case are so upside down.

This is what can happen when a lawyer lets a selfish and clueless client run the show.

260 Responses to Was Trayvon Martin a Peaceful and Non-violent Person?

  1. panorain says:

    The best evidence for the defense would be if Trayvon did indeed swing on that bus driver or if he ever did pin somebody to the ground and hit them while they were down. But haven’t seen anything like that come out. So looks like this was the first fight Trayvon ever got into in his entire life. And certainly never started any fight or bullied anybody.

  2. xy11xy says:

    Did you guys read this:

    It was drizzling, and he asked Martin if they could go inside. When they were seated he pulled out a photo. It was Trayvon, dead at the scene – his eyes rolled back, a tear on his cheek, saliva coming from his mouth. “From that point, our nightmare,” Martin said.

    at Reuters:

    This child was crying…

    • Diane says:

      Why didn’t the son of the girlfriend hear anything? Estimated distance from the home was 100 yds and all neighbors seemed to be aware.

      • xy11xy says:

        I don’t know, Diane.

        He may have been watching telly…might have had headphones on… I guess we’ll find out when his statements are released.

        • blushedbrown says:

          @ Diane & xy11xy

          From discovery dump 2
          Page 39 of 284


          Chad advised that the Victim has walked to the store on one prior
          occasion and that was the Thursday before the incident. Chad advised the reason he didn’t hear any commotion or shooting
          was because his bedroom is at the front of the residence.
          Chad was playing games with his headset on.

          What should also be noted is that Chad also called Trayvon and he told Chad that it was raining and he was on his way back.

          • xy11xy says:

            Thanks BB.

            I am wondering too why Trayvon would say he was running from the back. If I presume he meant the back door, does that mean Chad left the sliding door open for him? Tray didn’t have housekeys on him; how was Chad going to hear him knock? Did Tray intend to call him when he got close so he could open the door?

          • blushedbrown says:


            Your very welcome.

            I have often wondered about the use of going thru the “back”. I ‘ve come up empty on that one.

            When Chad called him and asked Trayvon “Where he’s at and Trayvon replied “It was raining he’s on his way back, Chad might of
            unlocked the locked door at that point. Just a thought.

            Bcclist goes into extensive dialogue on “going thru the back” and other areas. Excellent site if you choose to visit.


          • xy11xy says:

            I’ve been to bcclist briefly in the past… Will check out again.

            Makes sense the boys had a plan on how Tray would get let into the house.

          • Diane says:

            thank you blushedbrown. So….if Chad called him
            1. Chad knew he went to the store (not prowing)
            2. TM did buy Arizona and Skittles (mission accomplished)
            3. Tm confirmed with Chad that he was on his way back

            It will be interesting to see how many minutes between Chad’s call and being trailed by GZ. Definitely proves that he was not wandering around looking for a place to break into.

          • blushedbrown says:


            So sorry I didn’t get to reply right away, stepped away from computer.

            Yes totally agree with all three.

            Trayvon’s phone records show a call @ 7:04 for 1 minute
            T-Mobile rounds to the minute even though the call may have lasted 30 seconds.

            By reasonable deduction, I believe this was Chad calling.

            GZ’s call didn’t start till 7:09:34 to NeN.


          • Lonnie Starr says:

            So, that solves the problem of how Trayvon was intending to get back into the house. He probably planned to simply call Chad on the phone, to come open the door. Chad was apparently, monitoring the phone for Trayvon’s return. Waiting for things to happen makes people antsy, so Chad decided to call to see how much longer it was going to take Trayvon to return.

            That would also explain why he’d turn away from the house if he was being followed there. Because he’d need time to call Chad, and even more time for Chad to respond. By which time the aggressor would be on top of him and, if Chad happened to open the door at that moment, Chad would be exposed to the danger as well.

            So, now we can see the “barrier” that existed around the house, that would have prevented Trayvon from getting inside, even if he could reach the house 30 seconds or so ahead of the stalker. He might still need as much as a full minute, or even two minutes to get inside. Depending on how quickly he knows Chad to respond.

            So, now we’re able to draw a circle two minutes wide around the house. If GZ is anywhere inside that circle and visible, Trayvon cannot go inside, because he can’t make the call for Chad to come open the door, for two reasons, one; he can’t wait, and two; he can’t take the chance that Chad will be captured too if he opens the door at the wrong moment.

            Under these circumstance, Trayvon has no other choice but to run away from the house.

          • blushedbrown says:


            Let’s say for arguement sake that Chad had the door unlocked for Trayvon to get back in. This would make alot of sense since he had no keys on him at the time. We all know that Trayvon was first being followed first by GZ in his truck then on foot. When Trayvon told DeeDee he was “near his Dad’s house”, But sees him again behind him, Trayvon did the right thing instinctively. He went away from the house that was unlocked with a younger child waiting there. He was already being followed, and pursued by the creepy guy on the phone. He had no idea what the hell was wrong with him, why would he take the chance of leading the creepy guy to a house possibly unlocked with a small child. Travyon was right about the creepy guy. I am in the belief that Trayvon was not only trying to protect himself but Chad as well.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Remember I originally thought that Trayvon had left the back door ajar, intending to make his return that way? The trouble I had against that is, it’s dicey. Parents admonish their children so often and strongly about the dangers of leaving doors ajar, I would have to consider it almost an act of rebellion for Trayvon to do things that way… Most especially at his father’s girlfriends house, and with her little son there. My best guess is that Trayvon would not be able to violate this advice, for fear that someone might break in while he was gone. So, even while I postulated leaving a door ajar, I was still searching for a better solution to appear.

            It appears to me that Chad, would find monitoring the phone distracting, taking his full concentration away from his game. After a while the suspense and distraction would get the better of Chad and he’d call Trayvon to see what was up.

            Now note, it’s ten digit dialing. That probably means that Trayvon’s number is stored on a phone for speed dialing. At 14 Chad would probably have his own cell phone and know how to capture and store numbers on it. So, that makes it the most likely way that Trayvon expected to get back in the house. With a land line you can’t be sure that the person dialed will be in the room when the phone rings. But, you can carry your cell phone with you from room to room.

            Trayvon left and locked all the doors for Chad’s safety. However, on returning home, being followed is what he did not count on. Because he has to dial, wait for Chad to pick up, then wait for Chad to come to the door and finally let him in, he realizes that with someone a minute or two behind him and moving his way, he dare not take the gamble. For one, the stalker will then know where he is. For two, both he and Chad will now be in danger. And for three, there’s no one home to defend them from this monster.

            If Trayvon can see GZ, then GZ is too close for him to try to get into the house at all. All Trayvon can do is run away from the house.

            My guess is that after rounding the corner near the t, Trayvon stayed close to the buildings on the western side of the corridor and worked his way south towards home. Perhaps even pausing a moment or two to catch his breath in the shadows. GZ probably went straight over to RVC then headed south to the next cut through back to the doggie path. While Trayvon was approaching his house. However, once GZ came back through the cut through and out into the doggie path corridor, Trayvon was able to see him because of his flashlight.
            Trayvon realized that GZ was too close, so there was no time to negotiate entry with Chad by phone, so Trayvon took off running away from the house. This would be true even if GZ were over 200 feet away, because he can close that distance easily before Trayvon can get Chad to let him in the door. Or worse, arrive just as Chad has opened the door, thus letting both of them in.

          • blushedbrown says:

            I give you that, locked doors does sound better and a phone call to unlock door sounds very reasonable also.

            I think it’s feasible to assume safety first, lock the door on your way out. No one else was home with Chad.

            You have effectively changed my view point. I’m going with locked doors. Phone call to alert when to open door.

            Good job.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yep, I have to keep an open mind and be ready to change my views as well, at the drop of a hat, as new evidence comes to light.
            Often it’s just a matter of what makes the most sense. I remember as a kid, how often I was admonished to keep doors locked and don’t open them for strangers.

            I’ve also solved why Trayvon turns back into the 711, just as he’s about to leave. If you watch what he does, he goes towards the back of the store, then sort of stoops, sweeps the floor briefly with his hand as if to pick something up. Then watch his body language, he rises up while continuing his forward motion towards the back of the store. Then he turns and quickly walks out the front door.

            People who go to convenience stores see these coins all the time, they’re fixed and cannot be moved. I’ve looked on line, there are nickles and quarters that have a spike on the back. You hammer them into position and stand back and watch the fun as people try to pick them up. The people don’t need the money, they’re just tempted by the thought of a free quarter.

            I think Trayvon was embarrassed and fled out the door, which is why I thought that he should have immediately started for home, but that didn’t happen, I waited and waited and wonder what the heck could he be doing out there? Then I see the headlamp of the car pulling up, and seconds later these guys come into the store.

            It occurred to me when I read that Chad said he went to the store on the Thursday before. Too bad the SP didn’t pull those videos too. I mean, what if those same guys show up then? Wouldn’t that be something?

          • blushedbrown says:


            >>>It occurred to me when I read that Chad said he went to the store on the Thursday before. Too bad the SP didn’t pull those videos too. I mean, what if those same guys show up then? Wouldn’t that be something?

            I’ve thought of that also. What if they got that footage on Thursday and maybe someone we know was there as well.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Uh huh, potentially devastating eh?

          • blushedbrown says:

            That woud be a yes. 🙂

      • cielo62 says:

        As a very young child he no doubt didn’t even pay attention to more gun sounds. It’s so on on TV and video games many kids don’t even notice anymore.

        Sent from my iPod

  3. Diane says:

    According to a Tampa Bay online article 3/25/12, Trayvon has visited RTL before and kids enjoyed playing football with him.

    “Trayvon Martin lived with his dad, who resides in the Miami area, and had visited his dad’s girlfriend at the Retreat several times before. The kids in the neighborhood always looked forward to playing football with him. But to George Zimmerman, he was a stranger. ”

    If Trayvon played football, he was outside. Neighbors had to have seen him if Trayvon played with their kids.

  4. Mary Davis says:

    @ Professor L. Please read my post to you on the previous open thread. Thank you

  5. Tzar says:

    Breaking news: I found some evidence that Trayvon was a peaceful sort and it comes from the killer’s mouth, “he’s running”. This after being followed for several minutes.

    also when confronted with clearly established and threatening foe, instead of a throat punch, Trayvon chose to go with, “why are you following me?”

    Very peaceful sort indeed.

    • Tee says:

      How true you are. A violent person would have stopped and confronted X when he first noticed X following him. Had Trayvon been violent by nature and a product of his environment, X would not have had a chance to pull his gun. He would have been dead from the moment a violent youth from Miami notice X following him. Them young boys down there carry AK 47 and use them often if a car was following one of those violent boys from Miami I promise you they would have pulled their gun and started shooting first they would have never took off running unless they didn’t have there gun on them. This what I say is fact pick up any news paper in Miami, no Trayvon was not violent like some of those boys in Miami. There is no In-between either you either bad or you are not in Miami because saying the wrong thing looking at someone the wrong way can cost you your life. And trust me when I say they don’t fist fight unless you are a girl, because if you get into a fist fight someone is coming back with a gun that is the way it work in Miami.

  6. Tee says:

    I don’t know if Trayvon was a peaceful non-violent kid but what I do know is that the X supporters can’t have it both ways. They can’t say That Travon was on marijuana then say he went back to attack X. I know that people that use weed or cough syrup as they suggest DO NOT go out of there way to attack anyone these drugs are downers he would have wanted nothing more than to sit and relax. I think that night for him was more of flight or fight and we all know that he tried the flight part but X caught him so what else would any sane person think is left to do but fight. We are humans and self preservation is a human instinct. Let X tell it he doesn’t have this basic human trait because he refuse to use his two free hands to get Trayvon off of him, instead he “wiggles” not push not punch this kid that he is so fearful of but wiggles. (Liar). X suddenly remember he has a gun, a gun that he carries everywhere he goes then shoot this kid, he doesn’t fire a warning shot, he doesnt just point it at Trayvon letting him know tht he was armed, he knew that this kid didn’t have a weapon from his own statement. I don’t think there was a physical fight other than wrestling on the ground with Trayvon trying to get away from this crazy ass man. X lost his temper and pulled the trigger, this A hole wasn’t going to get away, not this time. Depraved, Demented, Deranged, & Disgusting. The next D will be Doing Time for what he did to this kid and his family.

    • Rachael says:

      I agree with you. I agree that there was wrestling on the ground and if GZ was able to pull his gun, he was able to say something like “I have a gun and I will use it” rather than shooting. It isn’t like Trayvon pulled a gun on him and GZ had to shoot first to save his life. Even if it was true that Trayvon was punching him or smothering him or smashing his head into the concrete grass (take your pick), which I do not believe to be true at all, but if it was and GZ had time to get his gun out, he had time to tell Trayvon to stop, he had a gun. Of course Trayvon did know he had a gun by the time he had it pointed at him and was interrogating him, crying and begging for him not to use it. The guy did anyway – might as well be 1st degree murder as far as I’m concerned.

    • I agree with everything you said. *except* the use of X in place of the killer’s name. it made me keep thinking about one of the most desirable man thats ever walked the face of the earth. ( not to mention ya, know all the *stuff* he did to actually change and make the world a better place to be:)

      i can’t stand the thought of Malcolm X and gz in the same sentence together.

      how about ‘C’ for coward?
      or ‘P’ for pansy or ..punk
      or ‘K’ killer
      or ‘D’ dick
      or ‘A’ asshole

      • Tee says:

        I refer to GZ as X because X represent the unknown, and with all that we do know about the killer and that night events there is so that we still don’t know and may never know. GZ is unknown to me he is someone I would never want to know. I can never think of him & Malcolm within the same thought. I was raised learning and listening to Malcolm’s speeches & teachings can’t even put them both in my mind at the same time.

        Nice to see Miami in the house! I’m a sunshine girl myself.

    • Jun says:

      There’s nothing in his toxicology report that suggests usage of any Lean or Marijuana that night

      They had a very low reading of THC and it could either mean Trayvon smoked a few weeks ago or he just inhaled second hand smoke

  7. Lonnie Starr says:

    Maybe GZ’s comfort is all there is for the defense to focus on? Perhaps anything else is a useless waste of effort? In which case, all GZ can do is see to it that he gets to suck down as many slices of pizza, Twinkies and hot pockets as he can before trial.

  8. jason goodman says:

    Dee dee said something along the lines of “he wont fight back,that was his problem” football coach said he was “quite/shy” way back in march the news intervied a kid at tm high school claiming to be his best friend(a small Asian kid) he looked sad an said “no way would trayvon do this” his nickname was “slim” (doesn’t sound too dangerous lol)

    For the record if you have ever seen the YouTube video they refer too as “mma fighting” youll laugh your ass off… If thats trayvon poor kid looked like a toothpick and all he did was keep the fight fair for the white kid…. Complete joke!!!

    • FactsFirst says:

      I saw that mess and all the idiots who believe thats Trayvon need their head examined… SMDH…

    • yes, i’ve read several comments from people who knew him and the ALL said the same thing.
      they also said that he was a peace maker with his friends.
      his mom said flat out that Trayvon has never been in trouble for violence. i happen to believe everyone who knew him rather then gz self serving lies.

  9. whonoze says:

    158 comments without addressing the elephant in the room of the original question: Is the prosecution doing a proper job in prepping themselves for any sort of character attack on Trayvon that the defense may try to spring?

    That prosecution doesn’t have to divulge everything they learn from witnesses, but they’re supposed to offer a list of anyone they may potentially call at trial. The witness lists that have been released are thorough to the point they include many witnesses who will NOT be called at trial (such as Austin’s sister). Yet, character witnesses for Trayvon who have spoken to the media — teachers, coaches, friends — are conspicuously absent from the State’s list.

    This leads me to suspect that Corey and BdlR and NOT making adequate efforts to line up effective character witnesses for Trayvon.

    • Exactly my point, whonoze! I have seen no character witnesses listed in discovery except Trayvon’s family and Dee Dee. They need objective character witnesses IMHO.

      • Xena says:

        @Diary and Whonoze. There was a post about this previously. Unless GZ opens that can of worms, the State has no need for character witnesses. If GZ does open that can of worms, character witnesses for Trayvon will be rebuttal witnesses. Now, if I remember the lesson that was posted correctly, the State does not have to provide the defense with the names of rebuttal witnesses.

    • Jun says:

      I feel the character evidence for the state will be them dropping all of Fogenhats’ dirt via a large dump truck full of files, if Omara wants to open that door

      But they can always bring those people in, the teachers and coaches of Trayvon, but, character evidence seems rather irrelevant in this case to be honest, why not just go at the meat and bones which is the evidence of what happened that night as I dont see the point of going that route unless needed

      BTW Omara has not sent in his reciprocal discovery yet

    • if you don’t think we are discussing the *proper* elephant in the room, why don’t you write your own blog so you can control the content and stop bitching about what we aren’t doing to your satisfaction?

    • Maybe they are planning to call them as rebuttal witnesses after the defendant testifies and the defense rests.

      They do not need to disclose possible rebuttal witnesses.

    • Malisha says:

      I don’t think the prosecution has to list its witnesses that are not part of the main case. ONCE a defense puts on negative character information about Trayvon, then the prosecution is into its REBUTTAL case and will call whomever it wants. You don’t have to prepare your rebuttal before the defense gives you something to rebut.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I don’t think O’Mara wants to try going after Trayvon. There’s no “bang for that buck” at all, and the blow back would make hurricane Sandy look like a sun shower.

  10. Dennis says:

    How does the newest police document discovery help the defense? Some phony law expert, that most likely hasn’t even seen any of the actual evidence in the case, thinks this helps the defense. I can point out several reasons why this does not help the defense:

    #1. Obvious attempts by police to let the defendant walk free by means of witness coaching and improper criminal investigation.
    #2. The cops wanted to charge him with 2nd degree murder. They mysteriously changed it to manslaughter before submitting to the DA.
    #3. Police corruption which favors the defendant walking free of murder charges only raises more doubt regarding that person’s innocence.

    Here is the question though: Can the prosecution use the evidence of corruption to prove that Voldemort is guilty? I’m sure they will raise the question of why the department decided to get a toxicology report of an unarmed victim rather than first test the person that killed him in cold blood.

    • Malisha says:

      It doesn’t help the defense; it helps the prosecution.

      The reason BDLR said it might help the defense is that Serino’s lawyer, Baez, gave it to BDLR while saying, “This might help the defense so you better look at it” and BDLR then turned it over to the defense because by law they have to do so if it is possible that the stuff will help the defense.

      This was theater. It will NOT help the defense. It totally puts an ice pick into the “inflatable innocent defendant doll” that O’Mara was blowing up since he took the case. O’Mara was acting like his big astonishing “new evidence” [that the police did not want to charge his client with a crime! — which is not evidence of anything but stupidity and/or corruption on the part of the police] was hot stuff he had to mention in court. So BDLR gave him one for it: He had to mention in court that there was suddenly this even BIGGER and even NEWER evidence that the lead homicide detective on the case WANTED to charge Fogen with second-degree murder and yet, as he tried to do so, somebody’s muddy little hand kept stopping him.

      I * sure * as * heck * wonder * whose * little * dirty * hand?

      Ummmmmmm… lesseeeeee… Billy Lee’s sweaty palm (da da dump!) or Normie Wolfinger’s widdow pinky finger (da da da daaaaaarumppp!) or somebody’s MMA style beefy fist? Hmmm, I do sometimes wonder. So many dirty hands, so little time.

    • Jun says:

      One thing I have noticed is Omara has since STFU once the last hearing initially happened

      Usually he is all broken nose this, Trayvon MMA that, Crump this, Corey that, Police this, Fogenhats is black that, Junior is not racist this, yadda yadda

      Now, not even a peep in the media

      Only from Junior but no one really listens to that bloodclot idiot anyhow

      Junior’s modus operandi is pretty much to say black, white, black, white, broken nose, and that Fogenhats should not have been investigated and charged when he actually did target, stalk, and kill a kid

      All I can say is Cocaine, is helluva drug, I tell ya that much LOL

      • “Usually he is all broken nose this, Trayvon MMA that, Crump this, Corey that, Police this, Fogenhats is black that, Junior is not racist this, yadda yadda”

        LOLOLO good one!!

        but we all know omar doesn’t DO anything until right before a hearing! we can expect his usual yadda yadda about a 3 days before the next one, hello!!

  11. This is the image of Trayvon that the fogenites would have you believe……Check out the comment by: Inspector 13 & art tart….

  12. Romaine says:

    I will also add that based on that witnesses statement we can access that he is a fan of MMA style fighting, which is why he associated what he saw as being that form of self defense.

    • Jun says:

      To be honest, no one can be sure of his statement, as he has given 4 very different statements

      But in the end, he never stated the MMA blows and besides the forensics refute that anyhow

    • Rachael says:

      I don’t agree.

    • Malisha says:

      What Fogen omits is more important at times than what he SAYS. He did not mention that Trayvon was on the phone, yet the phone records (which are not maleable like witness testimony) show that “thirty seconds after [Fogen] hung up with NEN,” Trayvon’s call with DeeDee had not yet been terminated. Fogen told Hannity that it was only 30 seconds between the end of his NEN call and the “What’s your fuckin’ problem homie?” question from an assaultive Trayvon who had “emerged from the darkness.” He omits mention of Trayvon on the phone because when he actually came up on Trayvon, he saw that Trayvon was on the phone and he had time to reach for his gun. I believe that his hand was coming up from his holster as soon as Trayvon spoke, and that by the time the phone fell to the ground, Fogen was aiming and interrogating his prey.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Reading through the docs I note that the NEN call records place GZ’s nearest intersection at Long Oaks Way. If GZ were indeed parked on that turn, near the cut through, I believe his nearest intersection would have been RVC. The 911/NEN call center has E911 enabled, so they have GPS, which is probably how they get GZ’s location, even when he doesn’t know the streets he’s on (or at least refuses to give it out).

    • cielo62 says:

      Again, he didn’t see anything, because he recanted his entire testimony re: MMA style fighting. Once he realized that HE could get into serious legal trouble, he stopped making up stuff.


  13. Romaine says:

    Having read the comments of the MMA style fighting supposedly performed by Trayvon during his encounter with the defendant; it is my opinion that it is simply an observated opinion of a witness who had no concrete evidence that Trayvon trained, watched, or had knowledge of this form of fighting. It was a witnesses way of describing what he thought he saw at that time. A statement taken out of context and is now being used as a fact with no proof.

    • Xena says:

      That witness recanted, Romaine. In his last statement, he said that he saw no punches thrown.

    • Dennis says:

      It would be hard to take any of the witnesses seriously as a juror. None of them are sure of what they saw because it was so dark. Some of them have changed their stories to support Trayvon. Others have claimed the police coached them on what to say or adjusted their statements. I’m not surprised because this happened with the Ryan Ferguson case. The corrupt prosecutor coerced the primary witness into identifying Ryan as one of the suspects because he was a sex offender on parole. The witness has since signed an affidavit claiming this. He is admitting to perjury to save an innocent man’s life, but nobody will do a damned thing about it. It just makes my blood boil.

    • Malisha says:

      Romaine, that witness caused quite a stir at the time, it was so exciting to so many belligerent, ignorant, TV-watchers to think about this MMA expert bullying Fogen, that later, when he was interviewed at a time when he actually worried that his testimony under oath could be subjected to scrutiny and he might be in trouble if he lied, he recanted and tried to do the “Old Fogen Thing” of mentioning lots of irrelevant stuff and throwing the focus on something other than what he had previously lied about.

      These two knew each other. When Fogen was feeling cocky about having everything go his way, his buddy was willing to just plain lie and make the lie graphic and exciting. When it came down to actual serious interviews under oath and the possibility of a downside (for perjury or fraud) appeared, he began to talk vaguely, admitted he saw NOTHING that could look like “MMA-style punches” and tried to explain away his initial “oops and uh-oh” interview. 😳

      He never saw anything that could give anyone the “MMA” impression; he thought lying would be harmless and his buddy asked him to lie so he did; later, when it seemed the worm could turn on HIM, uh, duh, well, ahem, uh… kinda… well not really and now that you mention it…

      Never expect the REAL truth out of someone like that witness; the truth ain’t in ’em.

      • roderick2012 says:

        Malisha says: Romaine, that witness caused quite a stir at the time, it was so exciting to so many belligerent, ignorant, TV-watchers to think about this MMA expert bullying Fogen,

        That’s what’s so interesting about the Zimbots claiming that Trayvon was some expert MMA fighter.

        If anyone has watched MMA matches they usually last only a minute at the most because one of the combatant absolutely destroys the other one. And these matches are between two skilled competitors.

        Yet the Zimbots believe that somehow their idol who claims that he never even attempted to strike Trayvon to defend himself was not only able to withstand a barrage of MMA style-blows from this athletic teenager but was able to stretch out his arm, aim and fire a shot directly into Trayvon’s heart?

        And the only injury GZ substained was a possibly broken nose?

        Honestly I believe that the police coached Witness #6 with the MMA nonsense and that there was a conspiracy from the beginning to only submit testimony from witnesses who told scenerios that were favorable to GZ and that is why many of the other witnesses who called 911 were ignored for so long even though they contacted the SPD and wanted their statements taken.

    • Is this the same dumbass who came outside and starting asking gz what kind of ammo he used and the one gz said yeah he was killing me so i had to shoot him??

      sounds like he was fascinated with gz and giddy with excitement by a violent murder outside his house and hell of an imagination! true idiot

      • rayvenwolf says:

        Nope that was the other John/Jon. If THAT one is called to the stand I really want to know why he felt the need to do the job of the police and take photos. Also why he did not take a picture of GZ’s face.

    • cielo62 says:

      Romaine~ MMA syle fighting involves heavy body blows. That would transfer DNA to the hitter, and bruises on the one being hit. GZ had no bruises. Martin had no DNA. That means the witness saw NOTHING, and everything he said was a lie.


      • Xena says:

        Romaine~ MMA syle fighting involves heavy body blows. That would transfer DNA to the hitter, and bruises on the one being hit.

        Yes. I would also think that if the person being hit is bleeding, that there would be blood splatter on the other person. Not only should Trayvon have had GZ’s blood on his hands, it should have been all over his hoodie and his own face as well.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Funny thing that struck me about “helpful” John’s testilying was that he said GZ was wiggling towards the sidewalk/concrete with TM mounted atop him, while GZ was trying to say that he was wiggling away from the concrete with TM mounted on top of him. LOL!!!
          [btw: “testilying” was a phrase that New York’s Finest used to describe what they do in court.]

  14. tinytruthseeker says:

    Reading tonight about all the money donated and Fogens initial fan club…. wow… $300,000.00 is a boatload of coin!!!! It has always made me a little sick that he would garner so much sympathy by begging and lying and scheming….

    Then I remembered another story about people donating money to someone via paypal…. prompted by an internet video campaign…

    A new York bus driver was bullied by 7th graders….she never reported a thing, she never said a word…. her bullies posted their antics on youtube for the world to see…. and in response 29,000 people raised over $600,000.00 to send the bullied busdriver on a vacation…. I know this little story may seem way off topic but I guess I just wanted to remind all of us that in the grand scheme of things…. Fogens fan club isn’t so grand…. he has been begging for nearly a year now…. his family has begged, his lawyer has begged…. they have had a national media spotlight and stage to do their begging…. and with all that…. they received less than half of what a sweet older lady busdriver was gifted…. and she never asked for a thing….

    I say take heart Warriors for Trayvon…. yes we have seen some lousy results come from Florida courtrooms, yes, sometimes juries get it wrong, yes sometimes we don’t have the faith we used to in our justice system…. but…. THIS TIME…. I just have a feeling we have the right judge, the right prosecutor, the most beautiful and gentle and good boy that was a victim….and a nation that is feeling a little fed up at the gun violence in our country…. The treenuts may be screaming and banging their drums…. but intelligent, thoughtful people are seeing right through their nonsense more and more every day….

    WE can’t give up hope…..
    and we have a wonderful resource that has been leading us in our quest…. he does it with truth…and the LAW…. Our teacher Professor Leatherman….

    I know when things are feeling bleak… I often just take a stroll through the many lessons he has left us here….and usually I am heartened again, reinvigorated, re nourished! Ready to face another day of fighting for justice…and for learning another lesson….

    • Xena says:


      Reading tonight about all the money donated and Fogens initial fan club…. wow… $300,000.00 is a boatload of coin!!!! It has always made me a little sick that he would garner so much sympathy by begging and lying and scheming….

      Re: the bus driver and donations to GZ. The donations to the bus driver came in fast and heavy. It was not that way with GZ. After April 2012, GZ has only received about $100,000 in donations and it sounds as though the bulk of that was before his Hannity interview. That in fact, he wanted that interview because donations dwindled.

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        Which only makes my point I hope…. George Zimmerman with all his surrogates begging and a media stage to beg from doesn’t generate nearly the generosity or belief in his cause as one lady who asked for nothing…. Over 2 million people signed a petition to fight for justice for Trayvon…. I don’t have fast and hard numbers but my guess is that Fogen doesn’t have anything close to the support our boy has…. not in the US…. not around the world….and certainly not in the small population his jury will be picked from….

        • Xena says:

          I don’t have fast and hard numbers but my guess is that Fogen doesn’t have anything close to the support our boy has…. not in the US….

          Right on! Even GZ’s handful of supporters on the internet focus more on those who support justice for Trayvon than they do GZ. They even come to this blog to adopt terms we use — but it’s said that intimidation is the greatest form of flattery. 🙂

    • seallison says:

      Thank you for your comment TTS. I am signing out tonight after reading your encouraging words. I will sleep well.

    • Dennis says:

      That shows how sick the world is today. That $300,000 could have gone toward the families of the Aurora and Sandy Hook victims. But they chose to give it to a racist sociopathic murderer. I can’t say I wish them well, in fact pretty much the opposite.

      • Xena says:


        But they chose to give it to a racist sociopathic murderer.

        Yep. A racist, sociopath who abandoned his house and job within hours after killing Trayvon Martin. Taking his unemployed wife with him, they have now lived off donated money for 9 months, and still want people to send more money so they can live that way for their rest of their lives.

    • Thank you.

      Yes, our goal is to secure justice for Trayvon and learn about our criminal justice system.

      God willin’ and the creek don’t rise, we will realize our goal.

    • . “THIS TIME…. I just have a feeling we have the right judge, the right prosecutor, the most beautiful and gentle and good boy that was a victim….”

      And i agree!
      This is not about black or white, it’s about RIGHT and Wrong.
      And we are RIGHT this time for sure!!

  15. Malisha says:

    And then the last judge in Florida said: “Bailiff, get the smoking gun the Hell out of that file, will you? Or those anti-Second-Amendment folks are gonna come looking to confiscate it.” 👿

  16. Malisha says:

    I can see it now.

    “Your Honor, although Mr. Fogen here did kill Trayvon Martin with a gun he was not licensed to carry, with malice, and with a depraved mine, we want you to admit that he is not a racist, and that Trayvon Martin really should not have forced my client to maliciously and depravedly kill him on that rainy evening while he suspiciously leisurely savagely conducted himself all wrong and caused a likely broken nose somehow. But the real issue, Your Honor, is that we would like you to dismiss the charges in view of this decent defense, and here’s the million dollars I promised you, OK?”

    JUDGE: Well, in view of the fact that you have recused all the other judges in the State of Florida because they were all anti-white-Hispanic-biased-not-very-nice judges, and in view of the fact that I’m the only judge left in the State of Florida and they had to bring me over here from the bottom of the Okee-Phenokee swamp, all I have to say is Okee-Dokey, but make your client promise not to do it again because it cost the state of Florida lots of money and now we all have to go out and burglarize houses and fence 60″ color flat-screen TVs so we can keep the Sunshine State out of bankruptcy.”

    • Jun says:

      LMAO You know what is funny?

      I was telling the bloodclot Fogenhatters that whether or not they can recuse Lester, Fogenhats still has no credibility in court and it wont change his bond conditions or what will happen

      Lo and behold, Nelson denied the motion for the new bond without blinking and then moved on without any afterthought LOL

  17. seallison says:


    During jury selection, do the parties have a right or an opportunity to check a potential jurors social media accounts, affiliations, etc.

    This jury is going to have to be one who WILL only consider evidence without the personal emotional beliefs.

    Just as someone above has posted, these Zzzz followers would never accept evidence because of what the Fogen represents to them.

    This jury issue is the key to a fair trial.

    • Jun says:

      I have no idea but I can tell you from observation, they do have a process in place to find a jury

      They found one for Montanez, they found one for Drew Peterson, they found one for Jodi Arias (who btw is using the same tactics as Fogenhats, by trying to drag the victim through the mud)

      Finding an objective jury is crucial for any trial and Corey and Bernie take their duty of sworn service seriously

      Part of finding out about a juror is finding out about them so I am guessing they do check their social media accounts

      They also need an objective jury because it could be grounds for appeal upon conviction I think

      Considering how the juries acted in the Dooley murder case, they seem to have a system in place to make sure there is a fair and reasonable jury… they actually weighed it like the blindfolded lady holding the scale… and then they found Dooley was at fault for instigating the altercation and the victim was justified in trying to tackle him because Dooley was waving a gun around a playground where kids were playing

      • Xena says:

        …and then they found Dooley was at fault for instigating the altercation and the victim was justified in trying to tackle him because Dooley was waving a gun around a playground where kids were playing

        You’re correct about the jury finding that Dooley was at fault for initiating the altercation. He could have continued washing his car in his garage. The other side of that however, is that because Dooley,’s defense was that James tried taking the gun from him, that the jury found that James had to right to attempt that because Dooley showed him the gun.

        Dooley thought he was slick by not saying a word, pulling up his shirt to show the gun, then turn to walk away. So of course, when James went after him, swung him around and they fought, Dooley thought he could transfer the role of aggressor to James, the victim. Dooley should have kept his butt in his garage, just like GZ should have kept his butt in his truck.

        IIRC, Dooley’s sentencing is the 18th of this month. I’m waiting for it before posting about his case on my blog.

      • Rachael says:

        Here is an interesting article with regard to checking social media accounts during voir dire:


    • The lawyers will know their names, ages, education, occupations, marital status, number of children, prior criminal convictions, whether they have previously served on a jury in a criminal or civil case and whether they have been the victim of a crime.

      They will not know their addresses and SSNs.

      They also may know any voluntary organizations to which they belong, but not their religious affiliations or beliefs.

      The prospective jurors supply this information on the standard juror information forms when they report to court the first day.

      The prosecution has the exclusive ability to run their names in the state and federal criminal-record databases and are supposed to share that information with the defense. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t.

      Additional information may be obtained with the use of juror questionnaires. The lawyers propose them and the judges decide whether to use them.

      I proposed juror questionnaires in my high profile, death-penalty, murder and sex crime cases, tailoring them to the issues in each case.

      I will be very surprised if the prosecution and defense do not submit questionnaires.

  18. seallison says:

    Allow me a Twitter observation:

    Florida is a huge gun state.

    Junior has been pontificating about 2nd Amendment, yada, yada, yada.

    He leads people to the gz legal site for details about the case and I ask why. His so-called new followers are gun nuts. So why.

    In my opinion, the reasons are 2-fold: the biggest is the topic of self-defence and guns. Nuts believe the government intends to ban ALL weapons because they only see things in black and white (judging by Jrs followers). These same people signed up with Junior when he was on the racist rants. Because it is a Zimmerman trial, interested Floridians will gravitate to a site involving a man who was simply defending himself from a gangsta.

    Second reason is fund-raising: Self-defence, racism, and gun control will lead the new nuts to the donation button on that site.

    In closing, the family tactics are serving no purpose other than tainting a Floridian jury pool.

    There had better be a right and proper jury selection process in place.

    • Jun says:

      How much effect does Junior and his family have though?

      He has been on TV in front of millions of people and altogether he has gained about 600 followers

      so 600 out of millions of viewers? what is the hit percentage on that? How many of those 600 idiots went marching for Fogenhats?

      Not saying it is impossible but to get through 6 completely biased ass jackals would be difficult because anything less than that is simply a hung jury

      and humans are also volatile changing people, so how are humans going to feel once they see the actual evidence and it turns out that the defendant and his family are just two bit swindlers and the defendant is a stalker and murderer?

      The guy is a bloodclot EEdeeot

      • seallison says:

        I dont know Jun – Junior also has over 1500 followers on Twitter. There are likely much, much more (because I watch his account. It belongs to the whole family).

        Although many of them say – innocent until proven guilty, their posts are obvious saying the opposite.

        I am on the list of worriers….and the list of warriors.

      • Jun says:

        well even if it is really 1,500 followers

        after being on media in front of millions of people, he only had an effect on 1500 people… that is an extremely low percentage… want to know why? Because it is the information age, and anything can be found in a click of a mouse. People can read up and make their own decisions. Those idiots have no real power to influence anyone and Junior is a bloodclot idiot

        Bernie is on top of it anyways. He complained that Omara was trying to taint the jury at one of the hearings, so I am sure he is going to make sure it is an objective and reasonable jury

      • Rachael says:

        Not that I believe he had much effect to begin with, but each time he opens his mouth, it goes down.

      • Lynn says:

        Junior’s had his fair share of TV begging. His whoring of the David P. petition was on local Fox in Orlando (potential jury pool) and we saw how low the response was. I still think we’ll get a fair shake at 6 or so sane jurors.

    • Xena says:

      Twitter is limited to those who are following Junior. His media rants are limited to fans of Fox news. Neither make a large percentage of America’s population.

      When Piercy posted his “malicious prosecution” petition, Junior promoted it on Fox. Zidiots promoted it on their websites and on Facebook. Junior had benefit of using Twittter. Worldwide, that petition obtained 1,156 signatures.

      There are gun-nuts on Youtube who do not support GZ.

      While I believe that Junior’s agenda is to taint the jury pool, I do not believe he is neither will be successful doing so.

      • Jun says:

        As much as Fogenhats Junior tries…

        Him and his family will never be viewed as victims and consolidate empathy by a vast majority of the public and the world

        • Xena says:

          @Jun. I’ve talked to many people whose only knowledge about the case is when there is a hearing and the evening television news mention it.

          Many of the blogs that I’ve discovered who represent as being “pro” GZ, have not posted anything since around April. That tells me that they were disappointed in and could no longer defend a man who betrays the trust of financial supporters and lied to the court.

          Because of White Supremacists getting involved, even those who believe GZ is innocent do not publicly associate themselves with the Zidiots.

      • seallison says:

        Thanks, Xena and Jun

        Just to clarify though – when I say gun nuts, I am referring to the fringe – not the normal, every day gun-owner.

        Any defence strategy will depend on what the judge allows and does not allow.

        And then, I pray for a decent jury.

      • Jun says:

        It is good to worry anyways, because IMO it causes you to do a better job, because you are extra careful now

        Having a proper jury is hard work and I am gonna say that Bernie will be watching over and Corey will be watching over, as Governor Scott put it “To serve justice in the Trayvon Martin murder case”

        They will be watching all angles, and make sure all rocks are looked under

        • Xena says:

          They will be watching all angles, and make sure all rocks are looked under

          They sure will. O’Mara and West transformed the case from the State v. GZ to making personal attacks on BDLR, Corey, Crump, and state witnesses. They have made it personal so we can bet that BDLR is not going to let them get away with nothing.

    • FYI. Many FOT ( friends of Trayvon) are also following jr to keep an eye on him too. many self-promoting tweeters also auto-follow back to anyone that will follow them. there’s also TONS of programs to use to get followers that don’t even know who the hell they are following. you can get hundreds of people in a few days who don’t care who it is as well as actual dummy accounts.

      so you can’t consider the number of followers, you have to see who is actually tweeting him. and i submit to you it’s only the same 12 people!
      and they all have more than one account.
      you can tell that by looking at how many tweets come out of those *ghost* accounts and the number of their followers and the ones they follow. it’s all the same group.

  19. seallison says:

    Please – Show me the way – Where is there evidence of Trayvon Martin causing George Zimmerman to fear for his life.

    Please – Show where there is evidence of Trayvon causing any injury to George Zimmerman.

    Violent tendencies. Methinks not. He never had a chance.

  20. colin black says:

    Malisha says:

    January 13, 2013 at 7:41 pm

    I’m betting O’Mara’s going to come out with a statement soon that his client suffers from PTSD and cannot cooperate with his defense and so they need 25 to 50 years’ continuance before trial and, by the way, will the judge please make an order that nobody is allowed to say or do anything to upset Fogen more because then his PTSD will get worse and he’ll need 50 to life to recover. AND he probably has a likely broken nose.

    Didnt Serrino mention something about foggen claiming he was suffering P T S D..In the recent e mail draghts released.

    An as to O Mara .

    He recently said .

    My guy is innocent someone should drop a million dollars in an account.
    So he can receive a decent defence.

    • Jun says:

      “Decent Defense” is a code word for “Omara’s Bank Account”

      and he is not likely to get the money because the whole world already knows his client hustled people for a defense fund and then did not bother spending it on a defense…. maybe he at most spent $10,000 on a defense and plans not to pay his lawyer… so after $300,000 gone, what makes people think $1000000 would make any major difference?

      • Xena says:

        so after $300,000 gone, what makes people think $1000000 would make any major difference?

        Bingo! With the independent trust fund administrator, if GZ received $200,000 tomorrow, he would spend it buying a house and still not pay O’Mara.

  21. colin black says:

    OK Somebody please help me out but in recent years thanks to events in Florida concerning the Murder of Caylee Anthony and this present case in volveing the accussed.
    I have observed the very leniant public accsess to information an evidence pertaining to the trial.
    An info not strictly going to even be used come trial .
    Thanks to the Sunshine Statute.

    Also learned about trial by ambush an how J Perry was never going to allow that sort off shennanigginnns ocour in his court room.

    Then proceeded to let the Lead defence council ambush the court an the Nation an the World with the revelation the Caylee was never missing an had drowned???

    An also ambush the court with a load of unfounded inuendo about R Kronk kidnapping dead bodies an George Anthony being a sexuall deviant whom raped his daughter everymorning before school.

    Even allowed Baez to get up on cross of the first 3 wittnesses the State had called .
    Freinds of the Acusseds

    An all Baez would ask them was if they knew his client
    And were they present in the backyard of hopespring drive on the day she drowned in the pool in the back garden.

    What puzzles me though is this trial of abush by springing evidence neither side knew about is suposed to be a big no no?

    However I watched a documentry on a case from the late 80s maybe early 90s .
    Think it was either Chicago or Detroit an the victim was a local celeblitry..
    A news anchor woman for a local chanell.She was married to an ex police officer an owned property somewhere in the country
    A small farm I think so one day returning from work she is shot exiting her car right outside the home.

    Now I cant remember the exact time line in events .
    But needless to say the husband is number one suspect an soon arrestted .
    He is denying guilt however an claims he was else wher on property when his wife arrived home/
    Ballistics in the projectile indicate it was shot from a certain type of hunting rifle .
    Wich the husband claims never to have possesed such a firearm.

    Anyway the trial is in full swing an photos are being shown of the bullets recoverd from the victim shell caseings .
    And photos of the type of weapon that would fire them.

    Two women were watching this as it was being shown gavell to gavell on local tv
    After all the victim was a well loved news anchor.Thease ladys had worked for the couple as domestics doing laundry cleaning ect.
    Watching the trial they knew the defendant was saying he never owned a weapon simmilar to the one used.

    They contacted the police whom put them in touch with the prosecution.
    An they were on the stand the next day testifying that dureing there time in the employ of the accused an his Wife .
    They had seen his guns many times a couple of hand guns an a rifle identical to the one shown in court the other day.
    They were again shown the same photos an verified that yes that was the weapon they had seen the defendant with.

    He was found guilty but if that wasnt ambushed evidence then what is .
    An is someones recolection /memory / there say so /
    Kind of hear sayish?

    In wich case it was being ambushed by hear say evidence out of the blue with no time to prepare a defence .
    An how can you refute or defend against someones word or memory both of wich can be faulty.

    Does anyone recongnise the case?

    • Malisha says:

      I don’t recognize that case but the big difference is that in the Trayvon Martin case, we know who actually shot the victim: the defendant actually shot the victim. He can’t get off by any surprise evidence. The only way out, for him, is a successful defense of “self-defense,” and that cannot be successful because the only one promulgating the “self-defense” theory is the defendant himself, he has zero credibility, and his stories (already told several times several ways) do not coincide with the physical realities of the case. IF we did not know who had killed Trayvon Martin, this would be a whole different case. Fogen is the killer. Is he the murderer? That’s the only question. It is not a very hard question. Nothing a criminal justice major at a local junior college would get wrong on their final exam.

      • Xena says:

        Not only has GZ admitted to killing Trayvon, in his NEN call, he also admitted that Trayvon ran from him, and also admitted to following Trayvon.

      • Rachael says:

        And – @ Xena – while he doesn’t admit it, it is on tape that these azzles always get away, these effn *oons. So that along with admitting Trayvon ran and he followed – well it says a lot to me anyway.

        • Xena says:


          And – @ Xena – while he doesn’t admit it, it is on tape that these azzles always get away, these effn *oons. So that along with admitting Trayvon ran and he followed – well it says a lot to me anyway.

          Indeed! Like the Dooley case, the State did not limit its case to when the physical altercation began. Rather, it presented its case from what motivated Dooley to stop washing his car and walk out of his garage to where James was sitting.

        • Another thing that speaks volumes about the fogen is that he made those vile remarks when he knew or should have known that everything he said was being recorded.

          Sean the dispatcher told him that at the beginning of the call.

      • Jun says:

        All I hope is the punishment is correct because the evidence is there to refute the self defense claim which is basic

        In the Vincent Chin murder, two men flung racial remarks toward Chin, and blamed him for the Japanese takeover of auto manufacturing, when Chin was a Chinese American. The two men beat him to death, and were convicted of manslaughter and got no jail time for beating a man to death

        I dont get why no hate crime bills were filed there

        But at least they were found guilty but it is still BS

        • Xena says:

          Quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Vincent_Chin

          “…during a 1998 House of Representatives hearing on the Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 1997, Congressman John Conyers, Jr. suggested that the problem in making people sufficiently aware of the causes for and injustices of the Vincent Chin case was that it was a political “hot potato” that did not get picked up for “political reasons” with respect to the automobile industry.”

          Makes me sick. Even had Chin been Japanese, it would still be a hate-crime.

      • Jun says:

        That is what I dont get. Germans are white people. You dont see Asian people punching random white people, and claiming they are German and were part of the Nazi’s, even if they are not even really German. And not all Germans are Nazi’s. So why do these idiots feel it is okay to just attack any Asian person, based on what allegedly every Japanese person did to these two American men? And they felt these men did not deserve any prison? They beat a man to death with a bloodclot baseball bat. Seriously, WTF?

        • Xena says:

          Well Jun, not to sound intended to lessen Chin’s murder, but not all Blacks are African-American either, but remember that case (I think in NY) where the police commanded a Black man to raise his hands but he didn’t understand English? The cops shot him dead. He had keys in his hands that the cops said they thought was a gun. (SMH)

          People are hired, fired, beat-up and yes, killed, because of racial bigotry and ignorance. I hoped to see improvement, if not an end to it during my lifetime, but it appears that with the presidential election of Barack Obama. racial bigots came out of their trailer parks and caves to turn back time. It makes me sick.

    • i’m worried about the trial by ambush too.
      the CA case is exactly what i worry about. and i know all about what really happened in this case, but i still know that a lawyer can get up there and lie flat out and not only win the case, but not be in trouble with the florida bar for it.

      biaz should have had * a good faith basis* to say what he did. he should’ve had evidence to back up those lies. but he didn’t and got away with it.
      that’s NOT fair. so now i have a very good faith basis to worry about what gz and co will say about Trayvon.

      • Xena says:

        so now i have a very good faith basis to worry about what gz and co will say about Trayvon.

        The Anthony case and GZ’s case are two different animals. Casey’s defense was that she didn’t kill her daughter. GZ admitted to killing Trayvon. GZ’s defense is self-defense. It relates to what happened between about 6:30 p.m. and 7:16:56 the evening of 2/26/12.

        GZ is on a slippery slope because any dirt ambushes that he attempts to use against Trayvon may provide more proof in support of the State’s charge that GZ wrongfully profiled Trayvon. Therefore, unless GZ can provide evidence that Trayvon burglarized houses, he cannot support that his profile of Trayvon was correct. Anything more can impress the jury to believe that O’Mara is defending GZ based on stereotypes or racial profiling.

      • Jun says:

        They are two different cases and Baez is on Trayvon’s side LOL

        I think what is most important is…

        The defendant already gave numerous statements, which are either flat out lies, inconsistent, or contradictory to what was found


        even if Omara comes with another story, they have no credibility anyways ROFL

        and anything to be submitted into trial, has to have a hearing beforehand before it is accepted


        any of their twitter and facebook searches do not prove anything that happened that night

        The mathematics of character evidence do not go in Fogenhats’ favor, no matter what they found &

        all their stuff they have found have been lies or fakes or staged “evidence” LMAO

        Honestly speaking, the only way Omara can win is if he gets 6 completely biased, bought, and unreasonable jurors who will just vote for Fogenhats because there truly is no evidence of any self defense claim for the defendant

        They should continue to work and watch all angles anyways though but let us see if Omara even has reciprocal discovery

        • Xena says:


          They are two different cases and Baez is on Trayvon’s side LOL

          You know, I got that impression after hearing Taaffe say that GZ met with Baez but did not agree to his representation. Before GZ’s arrest, Baez went on the media and said that SYG applies to GZ. The yada, yada, that we hear that GZ did not retain Baez because of his being too controversial is something I don’t buy because GZ would know that before he met with Baez. It is possible that during that meeting, GZ said or conveyed something that told Baez he would be a difficult client and is a big liar.

          • “It is possible that during that meeting, GZ said or conveyed something that told Baez he would be a difficult client and is a big liar.”

            Heh! Quite an understatement you made there, Xena.

      • xena. i know these are two different animals ok. irregardless of what gz admitted to, or what can be proven in this case, there is no doubt in my mind that omar can come up with some off the chart bullshit story in his opening even if he never intends to bring evidence. that’s the same thing biaz did.
        when that happened (even though the state knew he was gonna try the molestation BS) it was a total surprise in the details and specific accusations. and it confused and tainted the entire trial.
        then he NEVER mentioned any of those accusations throughout the rest of the case.
        yet the damage done. they did the social media analysis and played to the suspicions toward GA and went from there.

        there’s an even larger social media presence as well as a racial component in this case that can lead to the same types of strategies. which is even more fuel omar can bring to the fire. and as we all know they’re already using the Internet to their advantage, and because of it they’ve gained support from it they otherwise wouldn’t have,

        imo 2 things were at play with the CA jury, one was because the family of the victim was flip flopping with their loyalties. if the child’s family isn’t on her side then why should the the jury be?
        and the other one was the jury left their common sense and bullshit alert meter at home. that ol *un*reasonable doubt let them off the hook emotionally and intellectually.
        and it’s clear to anyone who watched the trial even if they had never heard a thing about the case before hand, anyone with a brain that is, is the state absolutely proved w/o any doubt she killed her own child and threw her in the old teenage hangout in front of her own school.

        as sure as we are gz murdered Trayvon is as sure as i am CA murdered her own daughter.

        In Trayvon’s case there are all kinds of innuendos and accusations being brought against him that some people actually believe already!! that’s NOT the case in CA’s case. the way i look at it here is there’s even more BS to contend with then there ever was in CA. and i’m worried that could taint the jury even more than the other one.

        my problem is that omar obviously can say ANYTHING in opening- ANYTHING!

        • Xena says:

          @Shannon. I wish that I had words to give you a peace of mind, regardless as to whether O’Mara throws everything against the wall hoping something will stick or not. I did not keep up with the Anthony case — only remember that afterwards when a juror was interviewed, he said that the State failed to prove that Casey killed her daughter; and that there was discussion about the State not entering objections when it should have.

          Is O’Mara capable of pulling a rabbit out of his hat? Of course. Is the State capable of proving to the jury that they should not believe in magic tricks? Of course. Why do I feel confident? One reason is because the immunity hearing reveals to both sides what the other side has and is capable of.

          It’s kinda like GZ’s first bond hearing. BDLR did not appear prepared as O’Mara pulled an okie-doke and tried litigating GZ’s innocence rather than it being a bond hearing. I do think that BDLR woke up after that one, however. GZ ended up paying for the okie-doke too. His bond was revoked; his wife arrested, and $100,000 was no longer accessible to them.

          • look don’t get me wrong. i truly believe gz will be convicted of murder- why? because he did it! Oh,and the OVERWHELMING evidence against him. that is what i’ve always thought.
            so i have that peace of mind that the state WILL prove it to a normal jury.

            but in the back of my mind it still irks me that a lawyer CAN LIE not only to a jury but also a judge and not get in trouble. that is what i’m talking about here. that is what bothers me about the lies omar can get away with in court. I hope that the jury won’t believe them, but even if one or two do, i’m secure in the fact that those moronic jurors cannot influence the other level minded. the worst that could happen is a hung jury and he’s tried again.

            btw. the jurors, the 2 i saw (one an alternate) both said they thought she did it though and have never been heard from again!LOLOLOLO

          • The jury will be instructed that the statements and arguments of counsel are not evidence.

            Evidence consists of the testimony of the witnesses and the exhibits admitted into evidence during the trial.

            The jurors must base their verdict on the evidence admitted during the trial and nothing else.

            If O’Mara says during his closing argument that Trayvon Martin was a ninja assassin hired to kill the defendant by a secret cabal of Caucasian hating Muslim neighborhood watch haters, I am confident that Bernie de la Rionda will read those particular instructions to the jury during his rebuttal argument and point out that there is absolutely no evidence to support that argument.

            If I were Bernie, I would then point out that O’Mara never would have made such an unsupported and desperate argument, unless he had no legitimate argument to make.

            The prosecution wants jurors who will follow the instructions.

      • Rachael says:


      • Malisha says:

        Shannon, it won’t matter what O’Mara says in opening, in this case. In the case where nobody knows who the shooter was, a certain amount of confusion is going to occur simply because a possibility exists of some explanation that has not yet been made. IOW, if the cops came to RTL that night and found Fogen, NO GUN, Trayvon Martin dead, and a bunch of people saying there was some kind of altercation, there would be a real chance Fogen would get off because of confusion of the jury and the possibility that an opening statement emphasizing Trayvon’s violent character and the suggestion of self-defense turned the jury toward thinking Fogen was a non-violent person and Trayvon was a violent one so whatever happened was trayvon’s fault, although they couldn’t really figure out WHAT had happened.

        It’s different, though, because Fogen did shoot Trayvon and there’s no doubt there.

        So IF he shot him, the next question about Trayvon’s alleged violent character is this: so what?

        A violent person is allowed to go to 7-11 and buy candy and tea and leave and go to another location. The most violent person on EARTH is still allowed to do that. In fact, inside a prison, a person who has already been convicted of murdering 25 victims after torturing them is still allowed to walk from one place to another and to buy commissary. There is nothing to suggest that Trayvon Martin’s character, whether violent or non-violent, would have given Fogen a right to stop Trayvon from going to the 7-11, returning, behaving “leisurely” or anything else. Even in slave times, when the slaves had a curfew, and the patrols were riding, a slave could be apprehended and forced to show that he had permission to be out after curfew but once that was established, he could not be killed for being “where he didn’t belong” according to any non-owner miscellaneous white man out on “slave patrol.” As to the idea that Trayvon’s allegedly “violent nature” caused him to attack Fogen without cause, there is not a single witness to substantiate Fogen’s bizarre and idiotic claim that it happened that way. The only people who claim to believe that is what happened are Outhousers and Jeralyn Merritt (who seems to have taken leave of her senses and I wonder the Hell why). Even Dershowitz and Turley only say that Corey “overcharged” the case, not that it was definitely self-defense or SYG. O’Mara has said several times that his client “reacted” to having his nose broken but he did not claim that the allegedly broken nose was the result of UNPROVOKED VIOLENCE on the part of Trayvon Martin. He deals strictly in vaguaries, always mindful of having to still have a modicum of his reputation left standing after this case is over.

        Fogen’s NEN call and written statement to the police on 2/26/2012, taken together and without other character evidence against him, take any rational person 90% of the way they have to travel, mentally, to realize that Fogen was the aggressor in the entire incident. If a person aggresses against a violent other person, and kills that violent other person, it is still murder. If a person aggresses against a non-violent other person, and kills that non-violent other person, it is still murder, and under the terms of the law, it is not a worse murder at that. If Fogen had profiled and killed Mike Tyson on 2/26/2012, making the same NEN phone call and writing the same statement, AND sustaining the very SAME injuries, any rational person would have concluded that he had murdered Tyson. Of course, he wouldn’t have tried that because the risk would have been apparent and Fogen is a coward.

        • Malisha, i’m not talking about the REAL evidence here. I’m talking about the LIES that can be told that don’t even need to have corroborating evidence to be uttered.

          but you made me think of something.
          During opening statements can Omar go ahead a say some crazy shit like “Hey this kid jumped my coward of a client”… and then proceed to go on and on with some outlandish story and about mma, street fighting etc.. and then never bring evidence of any of those claims?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Sure, O’Mara is welcomed to say anything he wants in his opening statement. He can claim the moon is made of green cheese if he wants. The problem is, the opening statement is memorable, since the jurors are going to focus on it, to pick up the guidance the defense wants them to focus on, when they make their case, by producing evidence to support their claims.

            So, if the prosecution finds it easy to demolish the defenses guidance, and show that the evidence leads to other conclusions, then they show that the defense is mere self serving talk, that probably never happened at all, while the prosecutions theory of guilt, supported by the evidence, is the most probable/likely take on the matter.

            The defense is challenged because, whatever story they try to tell, their credibility is going to fail. Any attempt to use exculpatory innuendo, which is all they have, is going to be met with hard evidence to the contrary. Google up the Collin Ferguson trial, the LIRR shooter. He went with crazy theories of his innocence before the jury, even suggesting that another passenger did the shooting, then framed him by passing him the weapons before fleeing.
            Needless to say it was not going over, so the judge finally made him sit down and let his court appointed counsel take over the case. But, by that time the damage was done. The court appointed lawyer tried to start anew with a more reasonable theory of innocence, but since the jury had heard enough already, they could see that the argument was merely a contrivance.

            That’s a very dangerous view to let a jury apprehend. Once they feel that the defense arguments are mere self serving contrivances, posed to create a speculative innocence, rather than the defendant being actually innocent. The defendant is toast!

            All O’Mara has to offer is an “argument” of innocence, that is no where near anything that will appear to be normal or actual. You can say that TM wasn’t afraid of GZ, because he was skipping away, rather than running, but that’s not going to make sense to anyone!
            Worse, it must go unsupported, because they dare not claim that George is a fine upstanding citizen or even a decent American, if they do that they’re toast. Because then George’s history of violence and physical combat come in.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        @Xena 1:47am
        Or perhaps Baez required a retainer fee, and that killed the deal.

        • Xena says:

          Or perhaps Baez required a retainer fee, and that killed the deal.

          @Cercando, according to Taaffe, someone had offered to pay Baez if he represented GZ. Had it been true that GZ did not want Baez because of controversy surrounding the Anthony case, he would not have met with him. It was after that meeting that GZ drove into Jacksonville thinking that he was meeting with Corey to provide him with protection. He was arrested instead.

          This leads to a logical conclusion that Baez turned GZ down, and it wasn’t the other way around.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      I only knew information that was known to the general public, in the Casey Anthony case. Based on that, I expected her to be found guilty. Because of my interest in the Trayvon Martin case, I decided to watch what was available of the Anthony trial.

      It actually gave me more trust in a jury trial, because based on what I saw, I would’ve said not guilty.

      It wasn’t so much the defence that won me over, but the prosecution didn’t make sense.

      The prosecution layed out a case that showed there was something seriously wrong with Casey Anthony. Her behavior after Caylee’s disappearance, makes any normal person wonder, how the hell Casey thought she could explain the sudden disappearance of her child. The prosecution did a very good job showing that Casey’s behaviour, was very consistent with a person that doesn’t plan or think about consequences, but just reacts to what ever is presenting it self at a certain time.

      In my mind I could not combine these personality traits, with the kind of personality that methodically for an extended period of time, researched and planned the method of the murder, the prosecution had suggested.

      The prosecution also didn’t convince me that there was a motive. All of the prosecution witnesses gave evidence that Casey had serious mental issues, none provided evidence that Casey experienced Caylee as an intrusion in her live.

      So to me the prosecution failed to show method and motive. Baez did a good job articulating my own incredulousness about the prosecution’s narrative.
      I am convinced that Casey is pathological liar, so I don’t take the defense’s story at face value. It is however consistent with behaviour I would expect, based on the evidence provided by the prosecution, from Casey Anthony.

      I feel positive about the fact that the jury shared my feelings in this case, because it gives me hope that a jury in the Trayvon Martin case, will share the same incredulousness about Zimmerman’s story as I do.

      • you sound just like the pundits *after* the case was lost. the same ones who were praising the state everyday during the trial, “oh what a great job they did today, there’s no way the defense can counter that, and let me tell you why…”!
        but then if it’s lost they always say the state didn’t prove the case…. that’s the same ol same ol.

        but at the same time you point out many of the excuses people make to justify their unreasonable doubts. if you can’t add up the personality traits of a liar and a thief and the planning it took to perpetrate those lies and thefts then there’s really nothing that can convince you.

        legally they didn’t need to prove motive. but they did, and you said it yourself. believe it or not, the child was an inconvenience in her busy life.
        as for the manner, for one they proved the child had duck tape all over her mouth. you don’t think that could kill a child?

        and you contradict yourself. just one example out of so many: someone who methodologically, everyday for YEARS, gets up and gets dressed and says she’s going to work, creates fake emails from a fake boss, creates stories of fake nannies ( for Years) with a sister and cousin and all that etc…that added to plenty of other circumstantial evidence, you can’t reconcile those actions as well as the forensics with an ability to commit murder?
        i could go on.. but maybe you should watch the whole trial. no offense meant.

        • Nothing useful is accomplished by wringing one’s hands and wailing about the unfairness of results in other cases.

          The lesson to be learned here is to think the case through from start to finish strategically rather than hysterically.

          I’ve done that a number of times and I believe the prosecution’s case is so strong that the major vulnerability in its case is the composition of the jury.

          The best way to deal with that is to make jury selection a strength rather than a weakness.

          Instead of freaking out, let’s design a questionnaire that will reveal potential jurors who are likely to ignore the evidence and acquit the defendant because the victim was a Black teenager.

          • you mean you were wailing hysterically too!??!! LOLOL

            ok, i’ll stop 🙂

            Prof, but that’s such an awsome idea! so let’s all try to write jury questions!! that sounds really interesting..i’m posting your comment on the other page unless you have.

      • Contrary to popular belief, juries almost always have a good reason or reasons supporting their verdicts.

        I trust juries a lot more than I trust judges.

        When a jury reaches an improbable result, I assume I do not know the full story or I assume the judge or the lawyers screwed up.

      • cielo62 says:

        Amsterdam~ I find your comment interesting. I, too, watched the Casey Anthony trial. Based on that woman’s behavior, especially the partying shortly after the disappearance, convinced ME that she was guilty as sin! The pathological lying is one thing that might be due to mental illness, but the complete absence of mourning shows a psychopathic disregard for another person’s life. Motive? She was tired of not having her parents provide more free babysitting. Her parents even said as much. Method? Almost ANY impulsive act that made her lash out in violence could cause trauma that could kill a child; a blow to the head, poisoning by chloroform, anything could be possible but not provable based on the advanced decomposition of the body. I would have felt no remorse in sentencing her to prison, and my conscience would be clear. Too bad the jury didn’t agree.


  22. Malisha says:

    “Pro-Boner”! I LOVE IT! This case is a “pro-boner”! 😈

  23. Thank you, Prof. Leatherman, for this post.

  24. Kindheart101 says:

    I find it pitifully telling that the Defense has no other avenue than to point an accusatory finger at the victim, rather than try to prove their client was in the right. This screams of the acknowledgment of Guilt by the Defense Team concerning Zimmerman, (IMO) so they are left with nothing else to do but grasp at straws.

    The tangled web of lies, arrests, protection orders, medical psychiatric history, accusation of molestation, repeated (fruitless) calls to 911, on-air interviews, inconsistencies in the re-enactment, changed stories, and most telling……….already called out on lying to the court about finances and passport? Is it any wonder O’Mara is trying to turn the tables?

    You took this case O’Mara, you get no pity from me. Deal with this lying, manipulative family as best as you can. But one word of advice? When you don’t get paid……we don’t care! (Pro-Boner seems appropriate counsel for this family)

    RIP Trayvon. You did nothing wrong.

    • leander22 says:

      welcome Kindheart, good poem. 😉

    • rayvenwolf says:

      Nice to see another refugee from HP here. This whole thing or at least the GZ side has turned into a laughable circus. O’Mara is up to his ears in it.

      • Kindheart101 says:

        Refugee………..ROFL. I love it Rayvenwolf.

        I still travel to HP, just to let them know I fight for Justice for Trayvon, and see friends I have talked to since this was made public. I read every single article, and chat on every site I can find.

        Good to see you. 🙂

        • rayvenwolf says:

          My tolerance for BS has dropped so if I’m on HP which is rare these days I’m usually far away from any Trayvon/GZ related articles. Of course the LAtimes comment sections are almost just as bad. Nothing like being called a racist just for thinking GZ is guilty and NOT because of anything said or implied. ^_^ I feel so special *gags*

          • Kindheart101 says:

            I know! Believe me, I know how you feel!

            But, I enter the threads about Trayvon, hold my head high, and speak my mind. I will never let them get rid of me……LOL. They will see my name as long as there is a thread for me to post to. I just laugh at them, hold my tongue, and call them foolish. I chat with friends and ignore them. I watch them from the sidelines and report every nasty comment they make.

            If David could slay Goliath……I can certainly take on a few silly Z supporters in the name of Trayvon. 🙂

          • rayvenwolf says:

            Very very true. The racist label mostly came about because I pointed out that the GZ supporter had not offered a single shred of counter evidence to what I pointed out. I swear I have seen better tantrums from 4 year olds.

          • Kindheart101 says:

            True! 4 year old, yet uneducated, stupidity!

            I was on HP last night, on the thread about the ruling that Z had to remain being monitored. The Zimmernuts were getting a little out of control, so the reporting commenced………LOL……and their comments started dropping like flies.

            What did I see next? Someone made an account titled: “EvilLeatherman” I rolled with laughter! Just that name alone lets me know they must hate this site! So, I am now going to let everyone I know to visit here, and get the real scoop.

            They hate, and attack me, just as vehemently as Z did Trayvon. Bring it on……I will never back down.

          • Xena says:


            What did I see next? Someone made an account titled: “EvilLeatherman” I rolled with laughter!

            If someone has no credibility, then it’s not worth time trying to destroy it. The professor, like others, are attacked, mocked, and defamed because his and our credibility is high.

            It is really rather funny because when the cyber-harassing laws are applied, each one of their defamatory comments and mocking handles can result in one count each. The Zidiots are rebellious and disrespectful of law, so they push and push without understanding how it works against them.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Anyone know why the SPD documents of that night all show GZ to be white? I mean, he wasn’t proudly displaying his pride in his Hispanic heritage, eh? But… Notice that in their witness statements, in spite of it being so very dark out there, that they couldn’t tell who was screaming for help… They could tell that GZ was a Hispanic male, go figure.

            Anyone have any idea, how these people could see in the dark, what the SPD couldn’t see in bright daylight?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        At the bail hearing GZ went from being a contender to being a clown. How ironic is that? The money the racists and gun nuts thought would help GZ prove himself innocent, actually wound up stripping him of his credibility.

        Without their money, it would have taken much longer, for GZ to reveal himself to be, a bald faced liar for certain… No! Make that “for absolutely certain!” Anything he says has to be corroborated or, if not, then ignored.

        • rayvenwolf says:

          When the money issue came up my exact words were you can be stupid or you can be greedy. You can’t be both, it never ends well.

  25. PYorck says:

    With O’Mara potentially indebted to the security/investigation firm for $27,000 and not having been paid a cent for the work he has performed, I can only shake my head in amazement that the priorities in this case are so upside down.

    Assuming for the moment that the allegations by AIS are basically accurate, how likely is it that O’Mara himself will end up being responsible for that? How unusual would that be? That seems like something a lawyer would want to avoid.

    Also, how does that affect the defense? If I was an expert or an investigator, then I would be extra careful when working with someone who may or may not pay me depending on whether they found a better use for their money.

    • Malisha says:

      Right, PYorck, PLUS any expert witness who works (“pro bono”) for the defense will be ruining his or her reputation while he or she fails to get paid and gets creamed at trial anyway. I just don’t see it happening. Whoever testifies to any expert position on the Fogen side is facing the real, valid, qualified experts who will testify for the prosecution. Nelson is a smart judge and she will not allow nonsense in her courtroom. Junior will not qualify as an “expert” and neither will Osterman. The fool EMT who said Fogen’s head was 45% covered with blood will be demolished by a Princeton mathematician. The Tim Smith testimony about injuries to Fogen will be taken with a grain of salt. If they get some doctor to come in and testify that smashing a head on the ground 3 or more times would produce a little “capillary type laceration” and a half thimble-full of blood that ran uphill, that doctor can go looking for his patients in the Sahara next week. Or maybe Fogen will get a veterinarian in to be his expert. Because his ass is…

    • Rachael says:

      Good point PYorck. I hope all his expert witnesses have already been paid, because he is sure going to have a hard time finding any now. Hmmmm. As I was writing that, it popped into my head that this is another one of his GZ-can’t-get-a-fair-trial tactics. Of course, like all of his other GZ-can’t-get-a-fair-trial tactics (i.e., trying the case in the internet then crying about how his client can’t get a fair trial), it is of his own doing.

      What an odd tactic. But I’m really beginning to believe it, as many times as he has done it now.

      • Xena says:

        I get the idea that the depositions by the Feign Team have now stopped too because of lack of money. In December, O’Mara said that the defense fund was down to $15,000. That is barely enough to pay for GZ’s and ShelLie’s living expenses including the kitchenette for 4 months. Any donations that GZ receives from now on will have to exceed $5,000 a month just to cover his living expenses.

    • He hired the firm, so he owes them the money, if the client doesn’t pay.

      • GOOD!! LOLO ha haha omar!! pay up!!! lololo

        Professor i nominate that the best news of today!

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Dear Professor:
        If the “defense fund” is exhausted paying for defendant’s and defendant’s wife’s living expenses, can O’Mara/West then declare defendant and wife to be indigent, and bill the State for the $1,000,000+ bill? Including AIS debt? Is it Seminole County that becomes liable for defendant’s defense?

        Would the entity that pays for indigent defense subtract the $300,000+ of donations that defendant spent, from O’Mara’s/West’s bill?

        • The court would require evidence that the defendant was indigent.

          That would be an uphill battle for the fogen, given the fraud that he and his wife committed at the first bond hearing when they concealed their financial assets and his extra passport.

          I’m not sure any judge would find him indigent, but if Judge Nelson were to do so, I think her order would apply prospectively leaving O’Mara and the fogen on the hook for the $27,000 (assuming the outcome of that case is a judgment against them for that amount).

          The fogen probably would get only one lawyer and that lawyer would be compensated at the going rate for court appointed cases in Seminole County. That rate probably is not more than $50/hour and it may be capped at some amount less than $10,000 subject to expansion upon a proper showing (I am guesstimating these amounts but they are probably pretty accurate).

          That amount is better than nothing but would not even cover his monthly overhead.

          Application would have to made to appoint and compensate an investigator and any experts. Compensation would be at the court rates.

          There is no possibility that the court would ever authorize, much less pay, $1 M.

    • Jun says:

      Well Omara heads the fund too with Fogenhats, so he has some responsibility for the owed amounts to AIS


      It is no one else’s fault regarding any alleged lack of money because they started with over $300,000 and only really had to spend $100,000 for bond and the rest should have been spent on what was labelled “defense funds”


      The defendant greedily spent all the money on himself and there is really nothing stopping him from doing some form of work for money from home and really no one forced him to leave his home at all

      The defendant hid out at Osterman’s place but I am guessing he grew tired of Fogenhats and kicked his ass out

      $200,000 is more than enough to pay for a defense and there are many who live within their means at around $2,000 a month and he could have lived for free in jail and he would not need a defense if he just acted rational and not target and stalk repeatedly and continuously an unarmed kid, then terrorize the kid, threaten him, then kill him

      It is like what many adults have told me growing up… all money has strings attached to it…

    • leander22 says:

      If I was an expert or an investigator, then I would be extra careful

      they use pretty high interest rates, which suggests to me that some of their customers had indeed a bad payment performance. If they succeed, I doubt they will get more than statutory interests. Something else puzzled me, they sometimes use the term “on or about”, that suggests to me not a really good documentation otherwise the lawyer would have had precise dates.

      But I can’t see any investigations at least not from the documents we have. They only contain 60$ rates, which is security. Ok, at least as far as I remember. Investigation would be 150$. There are a couple of oddities, at least without knowing the work done. The hours invoiced sometimes make sense if you assume let’s say two daily shifts. There is only one page (p. 50) were it makes perfect sense. 7/1/2012 one hour shift with 11 and one with 13 adds up to 24 hours. But that is not always the case. Sometimes you have four times 13 and sometimes you have odd numbers like 17,5 and 16.

      Anyway it would help a lot if they had taped O’Mara’s calls.
      Has the case has been admitted at all?

      • Xena says:

        Something else puzzled me, they sometimes use the term “on or about”, that suggests to me not a really good documentation otherwise the lawyer would have had precise dates.

        “On or about” is standard legal language.

      • leander22 says:

        Thanks Xena, legal speak? Really. It sounded to me on or about that date, it usually contained a precise date, that’s why the phrase puzzled me.

        Do I have to be on the lookout only in legal documents or are there other bureaucratic uses of this phrase?

        Thanks, Xena, I keep that in mind. 😉 To be handled with care “textwise”, I guess.

        • Xena says:

          “On or about” can also be used in contracts to avoid being bound to a more precise statement than is required by law. It is also used to protect the person making the allegations of fact from being challenged as being inaccurate.

          An attorney who works in the federal system nationwide, and who also has international clients, taught me to use that term in pleadings to avoid challenges because of time zones. For instance, “On or about January 14, 2013, the defendant contacted plaintiff…” cannot be challenged by a defendant on the West Coast that is 2 hours earlier where it might have been 10:45 p.m. and thus, still January 13, 2013.

      • Specificity is not required. Allegations need only be sufficiently specific to place an opposing party on notice of the general nature of an allegation. We call this practice “notice pleading.”

        The use of “on or about” a particular date is standard practice in criminal and civil cases even when the specific date and time is known.

      • Lynn says:

        I may be wrong @leander22 but that link is for Orange County. MOM’s office is in Orange but Sandford is in Seminole County.

  26. Xena says:

    This is what can happen when a lawyer lets a selfish and clueless client run the show.

    Based on my experience, I’ve seen cases dismissed on the basis of what I call “emotional blackmail.” For instance, a person obtains an emergency order of protection, and the respondent threatens that if they come to court for a plenary order, they will tell the judge that the person shoplifted, or uses drugs. The petitioner never shoplifted and doesn’t use drugs, but knows that the respondent is a good, convincing liar, so fails to appear in court and the case is dismissed for want of prosecution.

    The same is true in many family cases and in some criminal cases where the outcome is based on the victim testifying.

    Sadly, O’Mara and West have been diverted from defending GZ to offending other parties, and it’s my impression they were led down that rabbit hole by “emotional blackmailers.” In their lives and minds, if some dirt can be uncovered about Trayvon, his parents, their attorneys, and even bloggers who they disagree with, then everyone will become silent by way of humiliation and/or fear, and the case will be dismissed.

    O’Mara and West should understand that GZ is charged with 2nd degree murder and it’s not a family case where whomever slings the most mud unsupported by evidence wins. That in fact, if the evidence was in GZ’s favor, the mudslinging would be unnecessary.

    • Jun says:

      I’d expect them to perhaps find miniscule amount of bad on Trayvon, as all humans are not perfect, but it certainly does not mean the victim still does not have liberty to walk home however he liked without being stalked and terrorized, threatened than killed by the defendant

      Anyways, I welcome Omara to open that door, because the same can be done to the defendant, and his history is 100000 times worse than anything Trayvon did, in fact, Trayvon never did anything violent at all

      • Xena says:

        @Jun. Seems to me that in order for O’Mara to argue that Trayvon had a propensity for violence, that he would need to prove the “double-back” theory. Based on GZ’s statements and re-enactment, the “double-back” theory cannot be proven.

        First, GZ asked that the cops call him for his location, which is reasonably construed as GZ not having plans on returning to his truck. Second, GZ did not walk to RVC to get an address because based on the timing had he done so, he would still have been on the phone with dispatch and given the address he walked to get. Third, GZ did not kill Trayvon where he said he did.

        This does not include witness statements and drawings supporting that GZ moved south to north.

        Once the physical evidence refutes the “double-back” theory, any representation of Trayvon’s propensity for violence is rendered moot. Then O’Mara can move on to arguing GZ’s boo-boos. The State presents forensic evidence that Trayvon didn’t lay a hand on GZ, and “Katie bars the door.” GZ gets sentenced to life.

      • Jun says:

        That is what I am envisioning if he goes the character attack route

        Plus I would add that the jury would highly likely get really offended towards the lack of respect for a deceased teenager by attacking irrelevant issues to try to get a defendant off for attacking and killing a teenager

  27. I want to believe they haven’t found any dirt on Trayvon, but I believe they will take the smallest think and turn it into a mountain with an assist from the media. I do no believe all this evidence about Trayvon’s FB and Twitter (as flimsy as it is to present a psycho-thug killer) will be admitted as evidence. I just don’t see the proper validation coming from FB and Twitter and it seems thugboat doesn’t have the money to fight those behemoths. I do believe NBC and ASI will be very good at investigating gz and getting the books open. Still I know how some people will not give Trayvon a fair trial. Things like tattoos of his Nana and Great-Nana will be played up to great effect (forget gz’s gang tattoos). So I say all that to say, I don’t think they have found anything that any reasonable person would feel rises to the level of psycho-killer but must of us aren’t plagued with black thug-itis and far too many people are. And this defense team is low and disgusting.

    • Jun says:

      There’s really nothing there

      they have

      (1) Trayvon may have tried marijuana, or had inhaled second hand marijuana smoke

      (2) He wrote graffiti on a locker

      All that other mess, they can not even authenticate any of it so it wont be submitted into trial

      as far as the 2 things I named, Omara is more than welcome to open that door LOL

      • I’m always confused…he can open the door but I don’t know if they then open the doors for thugboat’s character testimony. As far as I know, it wouldn’t open the door.

        My main point is, yes, those things are minor to sane, rational and open-minded people. That doesn’t mean people like us will be on the jury.

      • Jun says:

        Yes they can, if Omara opens that door. Read the rules of evidence for character evidence. If Omara even says one small remotely bad thing about Trayvon’s character, the state than has an open permit to go at the defendant. They can also counter Omara’s false assertion with evidence that Trayvon was a peaceful non violent kid. I also believe it is irrelevant anyways. There’s no forensic or witness evidence to the defendant’s story so even if they feel marijuana smoking is bad, or writing graffiti is bad, it surely does not prove he was violent, and there is no evidence Trayvon used any violence at all on the defendant.

      • Rachael says:

        And you know what Jun? Even if they CAN show that Trayvon was into MMA, so WHAT?!!! MMA is HUGE!!! There are more MMA gyms and instruction classes than…well than I don’t know – but there are even MMA classes taught at the YMCA.

        Kids (and adults) are into MMA and that does not make them violent thugs.

      • @Jun – My understanding is that IF O’mara opens the door of Thugboat’s character, then the stuff about gz will come in. If he attacks Trayvon’s character, that does not meant Thugboat’s bad acts come in. I don’t think he would be pursuing this avenue if it were true…because the last think O’M wants in is Witness 9’s testimony. I think they will do all possible to not let that in.

      • Jun says:

        It is simple

        Let us say for example Omara states

        1) Trayvon is a violent thug because of MMA or some other pointless crap

        The state can, since the door is opened, to go at the defendant regarding his bad acts, which are a plenty


        The state can also rebut the evidence by showing evidence of his peaceful character

        So Omara is on the losing end of that battle

      • Jun says:

        I agree. Having knowledge of martial arts does not prove that you are a violent bully. There are many Shaolin Monks that could really hurt someone with their kung fu but they are not violent bullies.

      • Rachael says:

        And they can’t say Trayvon is a thug because of MMA unless they have proof of MMA to begin with.

        You see, on the internet, they can say shit. Any shit. The outhouse well – you know what an outhouse is for – can say and pass on anything of it they want.

        However, you can’t just say stuff in a court of law. You have to have proof. And even if they have proof that Trayvon liked MMA – that does NOT prove he is a violent thug.

        Go ahead and look up MMA. Look up MMA gyms. Try MMA craze or something.

      • At Jun – (2) Exceptions for a Defendant or Victim in a Criminal Case. The following exceptions apply in a criminal case:

        (A) a defendant may offer evidence of the defendant’s pertinent trait, and if the evidence is admitted, the prosecutor may offer evidence to rebut it;

        (B) subject to the limitations in Rule 412, a defendant may offer evidence of an alleged victim’s pertinent trait, and if the evidence is admitted, the prosecutor may:

        (i) offer evidence to rebut it; and

        (ii) offer evidence of the defendant’s same trait; and

        (C) in a homicide case, the prosecutor may offer evidence of the alleged victim’s trait of peacefulness to rebut evidence that the victim was the first aggressor.

        Pulled from your link – I think Bii is applicable. I think it is speculative because none of know what may be offered but as an example, if they offer Trayvon being into MMA – the prosecution can only enter if Zimmrman was into MMA – it has to be the same trait. The “bad” stuff on Trayvon does not mirror the bad stuff on Zimmerman. For instance, if they offer MMA on Trayvon (which I know is bs but this is a hypothetical), the prosecution can’t offer up the cop assault, or the restraining order or the molestation of his cousin. While I would be intrigued to hear the argument in trying to get that stuff in on the strength of Trayvon “MMA”, I don’t think it will work.

        IMO the “bad” acts of Trayvon they may offer are completely different from thugboat’s know bad acts. They won’t get in unless OM tries to present him as a choir boy or they are the exact same trait. He like MMA isn’t the same trait as he beat a cop IMO. .

      • Jun says:

        Yes they can offer it

        The trait is violence, not MMA

        So if for whatever reason they want to bring up MMA, well the state can bring up all of the defendant’s violent acts into the trial

        so Omara ends up on the losing end of the battle

        it goes both ways once the door is opened by the defense

      • @Jun – See that’s the thing – Sticking with the MMA trait – If the trait is violence – then does that make someone who likes it violent? That’s all they could possibly offer. He may have liked MMA. They have nothing that says he participates in MMA. So the trait of liking a violent sport isn’t violence, IMO, nor is it a violent act. All they could offer is that thugboat like MMA.

      • Jun says:

        The trait they are looking for is

        “attacking people out of the blue”

        I dont know how knowledge of MMA actually proves that

        so what if Trayvon allegedly knows MMA?

        The defendant is a former bouncer who has attacked cops, woman, dog, coworkers, and other residents of that complex and…

        he targeted, stalked, confronted, terrorized, threatened, attacked, and killed an unarmed innocent kid

        There’s no evidence that Trayvon even knew MMA, and I dont see how that exactly helps the defense

        and if Omara wants to prove that, and show that it means that Trayvon is a violent bully, then the same can be done back to the defendant

        and all that will happen in the end is the jury and judge will be disgusted by the defendant

        • Xena says:


          The defendant is a former bouncer who has attacked cops, woman, dog, coworkers, and other residents of that complex and…

          Called the cops on his landlord because the landlord wanted past due rent; and called the cops on a server at his (non) graduation party who wanted to be paid.

          Along with GZ’s demonstrated pattern of physical violence, he also knows how to be served with unjust enrichment and then call the cops on people seeking resolve to paint them as the bad guys.

      • Jun says:

        It is not a good idea to drag a victim through the mud at trial

        jurors are human like you and I, and they would get disgusted by it

        and if Omara offered that Trayvon just liked MMA, I dont think the state would even bother rebutting it because it is pointless information in relevance to the trial, as it does not prove anything that happened that night

    • Rachael says:

      @ Thats_so_not_racist –

      But none of that has ANYTHING to do with the facts. NOTHING.

      And anything that is brought up about that at trial can go both ways. I mean GZ has tattoos too – one that is supposedly a Hispanic gang tattoo (maybe some of that money went for laser removal?). None of that has anything to do with what happened that night.

      Anyway, Trayvon is not on trial. See – that is what is happening and you are buying into it. You said people will not give Trayvon a fair trial. Trayvon is NOT the one who is on trial.

      The defense has nothing but to try to make Trayvon look bad so their client can look good – with the hopes that people will either believe it or be afraid that people will believe it (like you). But the fact is, NONE of that has ANYTHING to do with what happened that night. Don’t get sidetracked, don’t get sucked into their plan.

      • O’Mara has explained…in his opinion, providing a vigorous defense means putting Trayvon on trial. I don’t think they will find anything nearly as bad as what is in Zimmerman’s background but they may (the Professor can correct me if I’m wrong) have an easier time getting information in trashing Trayvon than the prosecution can get in regarding thugboat’s prior acts. I don’t like it. I don’t agree with it but it really is a HUGE sign that the evidence does not support his client no matter how much his brainless followers bleat it. My concern is – will the damage be done with this flimsy stuff before we go to trial and how will they spin the flimsy stuff about Trayvon for maximum benefit for George. I’m not going to stop worrying about it until Judge Nelson rules it in or out and still we have the extrajudicial stuff that is happening with the conservative forces now coalescing around Jr.

        • Xena says:

          @That’s so not racist

          O’Mara has explained…in his opinion, providing a vigorous defense means putting Trayvon on trial.

          Okay, so how does he do that? Let’s say that if Trayvon were alive and placed on the witness stand, the questioning will go like this;

          MOM: Did you hit the defendant in the nose?

          Trayvon: No.

          MOM: Did you bash the defendant’s head?

          Trayvon: No.

          MOM: Did you tell the defendant he was going to die?

          Trayvon: No.

          MOM: Did you pin the defendant down on the ground?

          Trayvon: No.

          The evidence that the State has to support Trayvon’s testimony is medical, physical and forensic.

          O’Mara’s statement about putting Trayvon on trial is nothing more than playing to the Zidiots in hopes of having them send more money. Now that GZ is broke, O’Mara says that he needs money for a “good defense.” Apparently, the money already spent did not return a “good defense.”

          • But we have proof that he plans to do it…well until that blew up in his face. I don’t think we are dealing with a reasonable defense team. They have sued NBC. Are being sued. Have been caught in lie after lie. I don’t believe Trayvon won’t be place on trial via character assassination until the Judge says it won’t come into evidence. Has thugboat not show you enough times how self-destructive he is? He is a vengeful person who will cut his nose off to spite his face. Until it is proven in court otherwise, I’m not believing it lol.

          • Xena says:

            But we have proof that he plans to do it…well until that blew up in his face.

            O’Mara like the Zidiots can blow smoke up their asses 24/7. That does not change the truth.

            They have sued NBC.

            That was GZ taking the wrong advise of his supporters. Why pay for a safe-house and thousands of dollars for security if people are going to locate and be able to communicate threats to you?

            I don’t believe Trayvon won’t be place on trial via character assassination until the Judge says it won’t come into evidence.

            Based on the trials involving self-defense in Florida that I have read about, character assassination of the victim does not result in acquittal for the defendant. That if fact, it appears that it makes the jury believe that the defendant is covering up the truth. There is no law that says it is justifiable to kill a person because they were a bad person. When the victim was unarmed, that is even more reason for the jury to disregard character assassination.

            Has thugboat not show you enough times how self-destructive he is?

            He is toxic.

            He is a vengeful person who will cut his nose off to spite his face. Until it is proven in court otherwise, I’m not believing it lol.

            He’s also a vengeful person who is reaping the seeds he plant.

          • The rules of evidence prohibit the situation you are discussing.

          • I hope so, Professor. Just call me a cynic. Thanks for the clarifications!

        • No, the only bad character evidence about Trayvon that would be admissible, assuming it existed, is that he was an aggressive martial arts enthusiast who picked fights and bullied others. No such evidence exists.

          Nothing else would be admissible against Trayvon..

      • Rachael says:

        “in his opinion, providing a vigorous defense means putting Trayvon on trial.”

        Regardless of his “opinion,” the case is called The State of Florida v. George Zimmerman.

        Don’t fall for his crap. Be wary yes, but don’t fall for it.

      • @Rachael – well Judge Nelson “fell for his crap” that is why she said he could have the school records and could subpeona twitter and FB. These are the words the used in court and their rationale is that thugboat gets to look through Trayvon’s background to find out if he had a propensity for attacking people. This has already been done. Whether O’M got the twitter and FB stuff, I dont but he is allowed to go after it – he just has to fight with Twitter and FB. I’m not falling for his crap and I don’t like the implication that I am. I’m just saying that I don’t feel confident that they won’t find one small flimsy thing and turn it into something. The Judge has ruled they can do it. We won’t know if it gets in or not until the Judge rules but they will throw any and everything up against the wall and that may have a very negative effect in such a high profile case.

        • Not correct.

          She said they can look through the records for evidence of misconduct. She did not say that anything they might find is admissible.

          Discovery rules permit much broader inquiry than the rules of evidence permit to be admitted into evidence.

      • Rachael says:

        Yes, she said he could do that, but I disagree that it means anything more than allowing him to fish. He would actually have to find something that would prove that Trayvon had a propensity for attacking people. “Attacking people”

        I do not think that by allowing his FB, twitter or school records she “fell” for anything. I think as disgusting as it is, it is a typical defense maneuver to try to find something out. But I don’t think it means she has bought into anything.

        I really do believe that a lot more of this is for show than it is for actual finding of evidence. O’Mara wants to get jurors in there who are already predisposed to thinking Trayvon is a thug and GZ is a hero for killing him – and THAT is, to me, a WHOLE lot scarier than any evidence they can dig up, because I really don’t think they can dig up anything meaningful. My fear is of those who want to sit in on a high-profile case – and why.

      • Jun says:


        They did not find anything within his school records

        The security company they hired did not find anything on the kid

        and facebook already stated that they will have to fight them in court for the records, if there is any, of Trayvon

        And as for twitter, I dont even know if there is a twitter for Trayvon, and it sounds like they never got anything from twitter or there was nothing there to begin with

        and in the end, it all means nothing, because nothing there proves what happened that night

        So Omara can look through it till his heart is content and he still has nothing

      • @Rachael – my salient point – yes, she allowed him to fish. I believe they may find something that is a molehill and turn it into a mountain because racism works that way. I’m saying that until we know what will be the frame we are working with, i.e. we know what will be considered evidence in the case, I’m not going to be confident that they won’t go after Trayvon. That’s all I’m saying. They won’t present thugboat as an altar boy at trial in my opinion but that does not mean they won’t take something from Trayvon’s past and used it against him. And I won’t believe that until we get to trial because they are snakes!

      • @ Jun – I don’t know if they didn’t find anything for sure. I don’t think there would be anything there but I don’t know what is there that they can SPIN. Circumstantially it appears they haven’t found anything that they could SPIN but I’m not resting my laurels on that…I’m taking a wait and see approach because they are desperate and their only way of winning is to put Trayvon on trial. They have no money to do anything else. So they haven’t given up on trashing Trayvon IMO. IT is all they have. If they were giving up on it, they would have MOVED to get a plea deal at this point. They haven’t and so they are still fishing or have something they think they can spin IMO.

      • Jun says:

        Well if they find a bunch of racists, what makes you feel they would not be racist to the defendant? He is hispanic, a latino. The same stereotypes of thuggery can be applied to him too. The way character evidence works is what goes around, comes around. Considering the actual authenticated history on the defendant, and its vastness, the defendant loses on that battle. It also still does not prove what happened that night. Besides, they have to find proper jurors, and a racist juror is not objective. I feel they may be able at most to get a biased juror onto there, but 6 of them? That sounds difficult.

      • Malisha says:

        Putting Trayvon on trial would be the defense tactic if they could risk it. It would be O’Mara’s specialty, in fact. He does divorce work. The point, however, is that if they try to bring in negative character evidence on Trayvon, they leave their guy wide open to any kind of rebuttal the state can throw at them; and the state can throw rebuttals at them that would make the jury want to forget about the verdict and just hop over the railing and teach Fogen how to be a decent American.

        See, I believe the State has to give up the evidence from their witnesses in the main case, but do NOT have to give up evidence from their witnesses whom they would call on rebuttal, since the defense case has not been put on yet. I think the REAL fireworks would come in on the state rebutting Fogen’s defense case of “self-defense” and “big bad Trayvon.”

        I wish it would happen. It think O’Mara is too smart to let it happen.

      • @Malisha – I see what you are saying but as I said, I’m not confident until the door is opened or closed. Plus this extrajudicial statements are picking up steam.

      • Rachael says:

        Yes, Thats_so_not_racist, she allowed him to fish. But from the defense standpoint, I can see why. I mean they are trying to prove a case and what if there was something that showed that he was given to unprovoked attacks and had done so on 2 or 3 occasions. That is information the defense has a right to know. They are trying to prove a case.

        However, they can’t go making mountains out of molehills. Things have to be relevant. Liking a violent sport like MMA – or even football – does not mean someone has a tendency towards violence. It is not relevant. Even getting in a fight at school would not necessarily be relevant.

        Here is some information about relevance and admissibility:


      • seallison says:

        Thank You, Rachael,

        Trayvon is NOT on trial. What if he were a bad kid – did he deserve to be shot. Of course not.

        His character is of no consequence in this trial. George FrigginFogen did NOT care if Trayvon Martin was a good or bad kid. He acted as judge, jury, and executioner knowing nothing of Trayvon’s history.

        Fogen determined Trayvon to be a suspect, etc. through is own imagination.

        Man, if I were to have a teenage boy who DID get into trouble at school or sometimes with the law and my teenager were shot dead, I too would want justice for him. He was walking home from the store doing nothing wrong for Gods sake.

        Thug or angel, he had a right to defend himself, if in fact he had ever had the opportunity to do so. It is tough to win a fight against someone with a gun who is intent on having you die tonight, motherf……

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Rachael, I think this is so wrong for the defense to try and go after the character of the deceased victim in this case. first and foremost, Trayvon never instigated anything with this over sized fat ass *MURDERER*. this kid was walking home from the store minding his own business until the perp came into his space.

        Fogen is and was the aggressor all the way here and his defense team knows that. as for them trying to dig up dirt on this kid, is shameful as well as being wrong. I mean this kid was only three weeks into his seventeenth year of his life so, how much could he have gotten into? these people know that his *MURDERER* has a criminal past and, now they want to criminalize the victim as well. they didn’t find anything in his school records that they could use against him so, they thought they would have a 17 year old child investigated. O’Mara is a low as low can be and, he will get his just desserts which won’t be long in coming.

        Fat Boy is in this predicament of his own doing and, if he had left Trayvon alone that night, Trayvon would still be here with us and, EL Stupo would not be facing 35-life. so one can say, Fogen bought and paid for everything that he has got coming his way.

    • leander22 says:

      tsnr, since you mention Trayvon’s Twitter and Facebook account I wonder if you are aware that they quite possibly have been hacked. IT specialists should be able to find out what IP’s were involved. I find the argument especially concerning one photo very convincing. I read about it in the NYT The Lede blog: Bloggers Cherry-Pick From Social Media to Cast Trayvon Martin as a Menace. Admittedly slightly dated by now.

      None of treenuts type of “research” matters anyway. The “Lean theory” left me speechless by it’s stupidity, they had to squeeze matters quite a bit to make it fit, if memory serves well skittles is not the first choice. Besides, far as I know cough medicine is a rather legal drug, experimented with for generations. The only thing that seems to be indeed true is that Trayvon preferred Water Melon Juice to Iced Tea. Important?

      When I thought about the fact they (Diwataman?) discovered the time passed till Trayvon passes outside. Something else came to mind, besides what I already suggested.Obviously this is not an environment Trayvon was familiar with. In the shop he initially walks into the wrong direction to get out, then realizes his mistake turns and walks into the other direction. What if something similar happened outside. He simply walks into the wrong direction first? There are places here in Cologne, were this happened to me frequently. Obviously places were I rarely go. There are no salient sight markers the houses in either direction look pretty much the same.

      • leander22 says:

        I would like to add, by now I discovered too that Facebook has an option that makes it more secure concerning manipulation. But who actually reads the whole stuff when he registers?

      • Yes. I know his twitter was hacked. I also know that people still hold to a tweet to him about his cousin. The people who support Zimmerman are not reasonable and there are many who tacitly support him. Breitbart news is now making overtures to his family. I read this stuff everyday on twitter. These people cling to already discredited information. Nothing gets through to them. And my fear is that similarly thinking people (who may not know much about the case) will be seated on the jury and the small of dog whistles via character assassination will work with them. Trust me, they care NOT about all of the bad things gz did. They only care that someone tweeted Trayvon about striking a bus driver, that he had tattoos, was suspended and smoked weed. That’s all they care about. Zimmerman’s history of violence rolls right out of their consciousness. His abuse of his cousin…gone! Poof…doesn’t matter. All they care about his standing up for what they perceive as the right to self-defense and their guns. And Zimmerman desperately needs to tarnish Trayvon to win this case AND for his own selfish, psychopathic need.

        All I’m saying is do not get confident because none of us know as of yet what will be introduced into trial and how Judge Nelson will rule. Once we know that then I think we know the playing field. There are too many variables. Thugboat is compelled to finish abusing Trayvon. He can sell only two things…getting off and punishing Trayvon and his family for bringing this down on “him.” That is all he cares about IMO and he is damn sure to make Trayvon pay if even the tweets of his family are any indication and I think they are a strong indication.

      • Jun says:

        Naw, they dont have any alleged Trayvon twitter or facebook

        They have been using a black male from Carolina to purport as the same Trayvon who was murdered by Fogenhats, when in actuality, it is not Trayvon Benjamin Martin


        They have no way to authenticate any of these misinformation

        Facebook already stated that they have to fight them in court for any purported or alleged Trayvon facebook

        and lastly, Drinking Lean does not prove self defense anyways, so LOL

        • Xena says:

          They have been using a black male from Carolina to purport as the same Trayvon who was murdered by Fogenhats, when in actuality, it is not Trayvon Benjamin Martin

          And another “Trayvon Martin” in Georgia. Anyone named “Trayvon Martin” or “Tray” or “Trey” is doxed by the Zidiots and presented as the Trayvon Martin who GZ killed. Even if they can’t find anything bad on the other Trayvon Martin’s they make things up and present them as “racist” and “thugs.”

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Jun, are you speaking of North or South Carolina when you speak of the person in the photo these *IGNORANT MORONS* are saying is Trayvon. this is all such a shame and, this is why I want Fogen tried, convicted and sentenced to hopefully LWOP. then we had better brace ourselves for the *riots* coming down the pike.

      • Jun says:

        Not sure. All I have been able to find out from “NO LIMIT NIGGA” is he is from Carolina. Not sure if it is North or South.

        • Xena says:

          And, there is one Twitter account doxed by the Zidiots that they argue is THE Trayvon Martin’s account because of tweets about missing “Trey” —- tweets that were posted in January before GZ killed THE Trayvon Martin.

      • leander22 says:

        And my fear is that similarly thinking people (who may not know much about the case) will be seated on the jury and the small of dog whistles via character assassination will work with them.

        I guess that would be the ideal scenario, assuming they can’t be similarly thinking people if the do not know much of the case. I assume the jury will learn everything the need to base their decision on during the trial.

        Maybe you stay away for while from the blogs that defend GZ for reasons I find hard to fathom. I spent much time in the more polite Fogen support circles at Jeralyn Merrits TalkLeft or similar spaces like Stately McDaniel Manor and I arrived here feeling pretty similar to you.

        I think we collectively decided here what the worst case scenario would be some type of closet racist jury member, or someone that can hide his/her racism pretty well. Malisha suggested that there are experts that are quite able to find out.

        I am more puzzled about the “enlightened” Dershowitz or Jeralyn Merrit type who may simply be careerists that want to show that they are the best lawyers available, although I am not completely sure. Maybe they are security elitists. Guns mean security to some.

      • leander22 says:

        if they do not know much of the case. I assume the jury will learn everything they need

        two y’s missing maybe more. Seems I am still or again sleeping.

    • i think i understand the question you had initially.
      as if whatever the defense says to attack Trayvon’s character it would have to be an identical accusation against gz for the state to be able to bring in.

      that’s a good one. and the way i’m saying it seems to sound too literal. it sounds like an impossibly strict rule really. i mean which two people have the exact same prior bad acts? so for it to sound sensible to me i’d guess the law isn’t meant to be so exact. it’s meant to be broader, more in the spirit of the law,
      like = like?
      does mma equal gz’s attack on cops?

      oh and the question if the defense brings in something they think makes Trayvon looks the aggressor is that when the state can then bring in it’s evidence to show gz is the aggressor?

      • leander22 says:

        shannon, MMA sounds like a fiction by somebody that saw a struggle and shortly after witnessed somebody shot. In his mind MMA would have been some kind of justification, a reason to be fearful and shoot. A hindsight association from the larger scenario he witnessed before he was interviewed.

        I did Karate when I was younger. Thus I know over here I would be judged as someone who carries a weapon, if I a) am a black belt and b) harm someone and face trial. If Trayvon had a more specialized type of experience or was a well trained fighter in any type of martial arts, we would know it by now.

  28. Malisha says:

    I’m betting O’Mara’s going to come out with a statement soon that his client suffers from PTSD and cannot cooperate with his defense and so they need 25 to 50 years’ continuance before trial and, by the way, will the judge please make an order that nobody is allowed to say or do anything to upset Fogen more because then his PTSD will get worse and he’ll need 50 to life to recover. AND he probably has a likely broken nose.

    • Jun says:


      His head felt like TNT

      and he has word from the Conservative Treefort that Trayvon has a twitter from China, where he talks about MMA and using lean LOL

    • Woo boy! If he did that, the Prosecution would salivate over getting their psychs to evaluate him. I mean Bernie would have a smile a mile big!

  29. Two sides to a story says:

    I’ll be so happy when this is all over – but I can imagine that many Fogen supporters will be spouting the thugfest lines even after the conviction. They just don’t want to let that fiction go. It’s the first and last line of their spurious and scurrilous tactics.

  30. Trained Observer says:

    Unless there’s something missing here, the defendant’s security team was charged with guarding the defendant, not turning up dirt on Trayvon.

    • Rachael says:

      I don’t know about the “security team,” but Associated Investigative Services provides security and investigation services and I suppose will do whatever paid to do. I’ll have to go look at the evidence stuff again, but there were invoices that said investigation – but didn’t state specifics (which I would not expect – for obvious reasons).

      • blushedbrown says:

        @Trained Observer

        here is the link for the lawsuit

        Click to access complaintfilestamped-complaint-file-stamped.pdf

        on bottom page of 5 top of page 6, discusses O’mara hiring for “investigation” services

      • seallison says:

        Please refer to e-mail on page 45 indicating that the Investigative company may have a client to whom Trayvon sold drugs.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        “Investigative services” in items 17., 19., and 24. are mentioned separately from security services, and item 24. mentions that O’Mara engaged AIS security detail on behalf of defendant, but O’Mara engaged AIS for investigative services as defendant’s attorney, to preserve attorney client privilege.

        So, once again, boundaries are overstepped, this time by by defendant’s attorney, to make use of services that he then doesn’t pay for.

        All the boundaries, whether Neighborhood Watch, legalities regarding carrying and using a firearm, personal space, familial behavior, society’s expectations, fulfilling one’s obligations, even the 10 Commandments…. all are overstepped and flouted.

    • PYorck says:

      No, it was both, at least to some extent.

    • Xena says:

      The security firm billed for investigative work, including mileage.

    • The security team was provided by a company that handles investigations and providing security. Their investigators were tasked to do some work, They did it and billed for their time but were never paid.

    • Trained Observer says:

      Thanks for link on “investigative services.” Could we conclude no dirt was dug up, therefore MOM and defendant lost interest in paying up?

  31. Jun says:

    There were also many emails sent to Chief Lee I heard, which were complaining to him about the wack investigation and stating that Trayvon was a nice boy, which were mainly his school sending them in and some friends and family

    As far as the money issue, it is no one’s fault but the defendant and his lawyer… they had over 300,000 altogether, and even after 100,000 was gone for bail, the defendant greedily spent the money on himself and then kept trying to scheme money from his cult…

    No one can say the defendant never got a fair trial

  32. Rachael says:

    Interesting. They were not able to turn up dirt on Trayvon, now they are dismissed without being paid for everything.

    • Kindheart101 says:

      Quite the 3 ring circus isn’t it Rachael? I have to wonder how closely any donations, law suits and funding to the Zimmerman Clan is being monitored, as it is O’Mara that’s in charge I believe.

      • nancybenefiel says:

        Given the reality of life in the early 21st century, I think anyone who had dirt on Trayvon Martin would have sold it long ago, either to People or the National Enquirer depending on how solid their story was. They haven’t done so. It been nearly a year. You think someone would have come forward by now. Instead the Zimbots are still reduced to referring to screwdrivers as “burglary tools”. empty baggies as “drug paraphenalia, and calling Trayvon’s writing on a locker with a washable sharpie “destroying school property”. You have to grant these characters one thing. They have wild imaginations. Let me not forget Trayvon’s tardies somehow became days skipped.It is beyond my comprehension why anyone would want to create lies about a dead kid.

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