Open Thread: Sunday, January 13, 2013

Welcome to the open thread for today.

I have one post up regarding whether Trayvon was a peaceful and non-violent person. I also discuss prosecutorial discovery obligations and withholding inculpatory evidence. The title of the post: Was Trayvon Martin a Peaceful and Non-violent Person?

Use this open thread to discuss and comment on other matters.



153 Responses to Open Thread: Sunday, January 13, 2013

  1. whonoze says:


    I should elaborate on my earlier terse comment about what DeeDee said about Trayvon running to the mail area. It DOES kind of sound like she says he ran from the 7-11 and the phone cut off because he was running. This is because she doesn’t say how long after TM left the 7-11 that it started to rain. What she says is that he ran to the mail shed after it started raining. He left the 7-11 at 6:29 and it started drizzling at 6:37, by which time he would have been about half-way home. But there were other places along his walking route where he could have gotten out of the rain. The rain volume slowly increased between 6:37 and 6:47. In order to run for the shed, logically he would have had to have been close to the shed, so that it was the nearest convenient cover. This fits perfectly with the timing of the rain picking up and the time it takes to walk from 7-11 back to The Retreat (15 minutes). Also, she kind of swallows he words when referring to the phone disconnecting, but I’m pretty sure she means they lost contact after he got under the shed. She only refers to one call drop, but Taryvon’s phone records actually show there were two, one at 6:41, at which time he still would have been en route from the 7-11 to The Retreat, and the next at 6:54, by which time he was definitely under the mail shed. But it just doesn’t make sense that he would have been running for the mail shed at 6:41, because other cover would definitely have been closer (e.g. the entrance awning of the apatment complex west of RATL). So it started raining, he walked in the drizzle for awhile, then ran for the shed when the rain picked up as he got into The Retreat. Then “a couple minutes later” as DeeDee would say, his call dropped again as he was under the mailbox awning, and she called him back.

    So actually, you remember what she said pretty well, it’s just that the way she said it is confusing….

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      How nice of you to explain everything to me, whonoze. Thank you soooo much!

      • “The same month, the woman said, Zimmerman became angry when she came home later than usual one night. He began groping her and “said he could because I was his woman,” she wrote.”

        yes, i got that from a link somewhere on that page you posted. but while i was there i don’t think i saw your collection of stuff…

        iirc, this quote was from gz’s ex about the restraining orders. i think that infor was actually on another news website tho… i’ll try to find it for you… BRB

      • YAHTC>here is where i got this quote from and i posted the whole article. BTW, i did see all your stuff this time. i think when you click on the link it automatically scrolls to the latest comment.

  2. Brought to you by Sanford Watch

    notice gz’s comments about the witness!!

  3. NO f*ckin way Kid Rock is gonna play anything for GZ!!

    I don’t like to brag, but i love to boast.
    Kid Rock~(pre Romney debacle)

    I nominate Mickey Rourk to play BDRL!

    down in south beach,years ago steven segal’s brother drugged me. when he went to get me a drink he put something in it.

    but i didn’t really like him because he was weird. he tried to actually LOOK like Steven doing his pony tail and clothes.

    anyway, once i had gulped down probably half the drink i jumped in a cab to meet some peeps at an after hour place. but when i was getting out of the cab i was feeling weird and the guys at the door walked me straight to the bathroom and one held my hair while i puked my brains out! after that he propped me up against the wall at the bar in the bartender’s care. ( i knew most of the dudes b/c it’s kinda a small town, and they knew i didn’t act like that!!).

    when i look over i see Mickey Rourk sitting there! i didn’t really know him, but i’d been acquainted with him since we had mutual friends.
    and we had sat at the same table at a party before.

    anyway, he moved over and we tried to figure out what that idiot had given me.. we think it was GHB.

    after a few when i didn’t feel any better he dropped me off home safe and sound!
    he’s a decent guy!

    yes he went over board on the surgery, but he could make himself look and act like BDLR!!

  4. whonoze says:

    More fun:

    How about a Treenuts version of a GZ movie?

    GZ: Duane “The Rock” Johnson

    Shellie: Jessica Simpson

    Wolfinger: Jon Voight

    Bill Lee: James Caan

    Mark Osterman: Chuck Norris

    Sandra Osterman: Angie Harmon

    Angela Corey: Victoria Jackson

    Bernie de la Rionda: James Woods

    Mark O’Mara: Tom Selleck

    Sean Hannity: Dennis Miller

    Score: Ted Nugent and Kid Rock

    • blushedbrown says:

      Excellent list, really like your choice of Voight and Woods.
      Osterman, played by Chuck Norris, what a hoot.

      Did you get that info I sent you yesterday?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Hey, I have an idea……maybe the Lego company should manufacture a Treehouse set with all of the characters.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Or maybe there should be a board game……like monopoly you draw cards but they are labeled “Chancy Lie” and “Solid Evidence”

      • Rachael says:

        LOL @ Lego Treehouse!

      • this is so disgusting. gz is a filthy, child molesting POS!! and now i’m even MORE convinced he did it to another girl too that his cousin talked about!! ( not that i doubted her before, since molesters rarely have just one victim!!)

        “The same month, the woman said, Zimmerman became angry when she came home later than usual one night. He began groping her and “said he could because I was his woman,” she wrote.”

        YAHTC, i got that from your link you posted earlier!! ewwwwwwwwwwwww he’s so sick man, i swear, his cousin needs to be called at trial and finally have her say because this is what this whole case is about. GZ’s Lack of credibility and his propensity to commit harm on others!!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I am not sure what woman you are talking about, shannonfrommiami.

        At my link….there are no transcripts of his ex-fiance’s statements, no transcripts of his cousin or any other woman that he knew.

        Did you click on one of the discovery links I provided at my link to get that info?

        I am asking because I would like to read what you read about what you read.

  5. blushedbrown says:

    The biggest lie of all, he said it was self defense.

  6. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    George has failed in most of his undertakings.

    He started an insurance company with a friend but failed to pass the requirements to obtain an insurance license.

    He was fired from his security bouncer job.

    He had failed relationships.

    He was rejected from the police cadet program.

    He received D’s in most of his criminal college courses.

    He was let go (fired?) at his Car Max job.

    His application for an associates degree program was denied October 17, 2011.

  7. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    George had rage issues.

  8. seallison says:

    He lied when he said he knew every man, woman, and child in the neighbourhood. Yet, he could not remember the name of the street he was on.

  9. seallison says:

    He lied writing that his Father was a Judge on application for Citizens Police Academy.

  10. seallison says:

    He lied about why he went into hiding.Using the NBPP before they had even issued the threat. He hid before anyone even heard his name.

  11. seallison says:

    Lied about Trayvon coming at him from behind after hiding in non-existent trees at the tee.

  12. seallison says:

    He lied about having a broken nose. When describing how Trayvon tried to smother him, Fogen demonstrated to the Voice Stress Test guy how Trayvon did it – pinching his nose.

    There was no blood coming out of nostrils in the coloured photo. He was speaking clearly – no sign of swelling in his voice.

    • seallison says:

      He pinched his own nose just hours after the alleged beating! Try doing that and, at the very least, your eyes would water, your nose would run, and you would show pain on your face —- nothin. Nothin caught on tape.

  13. seallison says:

    He lied on applications saying he was white. oops, no he didn’t. He is white. Oops, no he isn’t. He is Hispanic. Nope, he is black and Hispanic. No. He is white. Well, he lied about something there. LOL. Depended on the circumstances. He was whatever would be advantageous.

  14. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    George disrespected the law….George disrespected authority ……George disrespected NW guidelines…….George disrespected a court of law.

  15. whonoze says:

    OK, here’s a question for fun:

    I think when the smoke clears, Chris Serino will no longer be patrolling a beat in Sanford, but will be making appearances on every TV talk show (except the ones on Fox, of course) to discuss his tell-all book, and he will be negotiating a 7 figure deal for movie rights, with bidding from multiple production companies associated with A-List Hollywood stars.

    So, who do you think should/will play Serino in the movie (e.g. Ben Affleck)? Who would you NOT want to see play him (e.g. … Ben Affleck)?

  16. seallison says:

    In Winnipeg, LCs walk an avg. of 17 miles per shift counting stairs to and from homes with an avg. satchel weight of 35 lbs. Trayvon walking that distance would be easy. If it weren’t, I doubt he would bother going to the store.

  17. whonoze says:

    Does anyone know whether Florida’s minimum sentencing law allows the prosecution to cut plea bargains for reduced sentences below the minimum? On some forums, I’ve seen speculation that this case may end in a plea bargain, but if the minimum sentencing standards apply GZ goes to prison for about the same term for Manslaughter as for Murder 2, given that a gun was involved, etc.

    I ask because it just occurred to me that if GZ can plead to something that would get him a significantly reduced sentence, he would have one bargaining chip to offer (though I doubt he;d use it): He could turn State’s evidence and blow the whistle on the SPD conspiracy to cover-up his crime by manipulating witnesses and evidence to support his bogus claim of self-defense. I doubt Angela Corey has any interest in prosecuting the cops, but if GZ went public there would be pressure on her to do something. If she stonewalls, it might even be possible for the Defense to wangle that into a mistrial. I don’t think she can offer him a deal to keep him quiet, because of the public outrage that would follow.

    I think GZ would only have a fixed window of time for such a move, as I think Chris Serino will probably be spilling the beans sooner or later.

    But, of course, GZ would have to admit his own guilt in the process, and so far all the evidence seems to point to him being so delusional he thinks he can get a jury to buy his lies and he’ll get off scott free [as in Rick Scott 🙂 ]. Me, I can’t see that happening…

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Good question, whonoze.

      At some point…..if he pleas or if he is convicted…..he will squeal on them.

    • Xena says:


      Does anyone know whether Florida’s minimum sentencing law allows the prosecution to cut plea bargains for reduced sentences below the minimum?

      Marissa Alexander was offered 3 yrs. She turned it down, was found guilty, and the judge had no choice than to sentence her to the statutory 20 yrs.

      • th difference is she wouldn’t have been charged with a crime when the gun went off.

        gz cannot be offered a deal like that because his victim is dead and there’s no choice when you kill someone with a gun during a crime ( self defense is not a crime)

        gz’s gun enhancement means 25 to life.

  18. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Let’s take some time now and put together evidence of the type of person gz is. Under this post let’s list some examples of George being a liar.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      He lied to his cousin to lure her to his Lake Mary home by telling her many members of their family would be at an event he was hosting.

      [[“The last encounter happened when the woman was 19, she said. By then Zimmerman had moved to Florida, not long before his parents followed. That time, Zimmerman demanded that she lay down on the bed to receive a massage. Fearful, she said she did, but when he bent close to kiss the side of her face, his erect penis pressed up against her. At that moment she decided to run, she said. Zimmerman chased her to the front door.”]]]

      “I was scared of what else was going to happen,” she said.

      “With him, he like, he was a different person to me. He was very intimidating and the fact that he made everyone love him and made everyone laugh and be so happy around him, I knew if I said anything he would just deny it,” she said.

      click> Witness #9 Files: Trayvon Martin / George Zimmerman Case …

    • whonoze says:

      Oh my, this is going to be a long list.

      Lied about getting his Associate’s Degree to his best friend.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        And lied about it during his interview.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Serino: Highest level of education?
        Zimmerman: Ah, Associates.
        Serino: OK you’ve been re….in what?
        Zimmerman: Pardon?
        Serino: In what?
        Zimmerman: Criminal Justice.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        DENIED Is stamped on George Zimmerman’s (student #1309418) application (Dated 10-17-11) for an Associate in Arts (A.A.) degree.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        He lied to Hannity say he did not understand SYG but told Serino he did understand it because he had a degree in criminology.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      He lied by omission in that he did not inform the HOA of his past arrest record when he took on the role of NW coordinator.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      He also lied about not having a mental health diagnosis, and taking medication for such.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      He lied to a co-worker at Car Max by sending him out a nonexistent car sale.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        The co-worker also said that gz “pressured me to split my first floor sale with him by lying about the CarMax policy of splitting deals.”

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        The co-worker said gz “intentionally gave me wrong directions about how to perform my job, and then later made jokes to other employees and managers of how ‘stupid’ I was to listen.”

    • Xena says:

      GZ lied about spreading Trayvon’s arms out after he shot him.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        And what a dummy gz was to say that….huh, Xena.

        Like a person really needs to “restrain” the victim whom he had just shot in the heart?

        How depraved is that when we know what gz was actually doing!

        • Xena says:

          Yep. GZ’s lies are an insult to intelligence. If GZ indeed spread Trayvon’s arms out, then he needs to tell the State who put them under Trayvon’s body afterwards and before the cops arrived.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Whonoze……you just won’t believe how often our newsvine Trayvon team linked your “lies video” during our back and forths with the zimmies. Your video was such a good “zinger” to throw at those guys!!!!

    • Xena says:

      GZ lied to financial donors, leading them to believe he needed money for legal defense and living expenses, but used it to pay off his pre-Feb. 26, 2012 debts.

    • Xena says:

      If we take GZ at his word about his first verbal exchange with Trayvon, he lied to Trayvon because GZ did have a problem.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      He lied about “not knowing how old Trayvon was” when he made his insincere attempt at an apology to Trayvon’s parents in open court.

  19. whonoze says:

    “Looking at that long walk there and back, it would be tiring no matter what age.”

    Er, no.

    It’s .8 mi from the 7-11 to the RATL Clubhouse. At the ages of 12 and 13, I walked .8 mi to school every day, and never once felt tired on arriving, or after making the trip home. And I was an overweight nerd who got a D in gym because I couldn’t do one pull-up, or climb the rope, and finished last in the 600 yard run. Trayvon was 17, long-legged, and trim. Unless he had recently come down with TB or juvenile emphysema, there’s no way (none, nada, zilch, bupkiss) that walk tuckered him out.

    • gblock says:

      For the distance, I think it would have been a relatively easy walk, because it is so flat. But the rain may have made it seem long.

  20. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I am glad to finally see the pedestrian gates at the front and back of the Retreat.
    Also, what a long walk that was to 7-11 for Trayvon.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Didn’t Crump mention something about Trayvon having the combination to the pedestrian gate?

      • seallison says:

        Yes. Mr. Crump said he had to use the code. There was no key found on Trayvon and there is no evidence that he ever used the cut-through by Taaffes house. The gate would have been closed and Trayvon would have had to use the code to get in.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks for info.

  21. seallison says:

    What I am thinking, is that the Fogen (alone or with others) is caught at the M-I ATM drive-through, caught on video going to Kohls, and lastly at Sams Club. It may show that the Fogen was seen passing Trayvon either going to or leaving the 7-11 DURING his shopping trip. He did have a Sams Club credit card and it was not with him that leads me to believe his wife was with him or she was shopping alone.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      That sure would be something if the Kohls’ and Sam’s Club videos did capture gz. Yet, if they had, don’t you think that de la Rionda would have released them publicly by now?

      Only the ATM video has been released. It will be great when that ATM transaction record is released.

  22. seallison says:

    Sams Club is right by the 7-11. There is a mall. Kohls and M-I Bank is past where Trayvon would have turned to get back to the Retreat.

    • whonoze says:

      Kohl’s address is past where TM would have turned, but the store itself is closer to the North side of Oregon Ave. and the corner of the building is visible at 3:19 in Dave’s video posted above. It’s across Oregon from the apartment complex just West of The Retreat. The parking for these apartments is just feet from the sidewalk along Oregon. Again you can see the parked cars in Dave’s video at 3:22.

      That said, the odds of a security video showing anyone near the street “attempting to break into a car” (whatever that means) are extremely slim, and the odds of a figure near the street (doing anything) being identifiable as Trayvon Martin are slim cubed. Security videos are low resolution, wode angle shots that just don’t register detail at any distance whatsoever.

      This whole business just smells of a Treehouse flight of fancy. There are videos, so they must show something!! I’m just guessing, but if they had any evidentiary value I’d think we’d hear something from the Defense. The prosecution probably collected the videos just in case, and turned them over to the defense because they have them, and discovery says they have to share. And Angela Corey’s probably having a good chuckle that someone on the Defense team is wasting their time looking through this footage that shows absolutely nothing

  23. that’s a pretty long walk to and from 711 and on a busy road, yet he survives that journey both ways, but is stalked by a car, then on foot and then chased down and murdered during a brutal assault from a neighbor!!!!!!

    this is so haunting. so sad. just outrageous!

    • what roads are you referring to?

      • Xena says:

        The road from the 7-Eleven to R@TL — the one that the Zidiots now say Trayvon was looking into and trying to break into cars parked along his route home. As you can see, there’s no place for cars to park on that road.

        • Stupid idiots!!1 what else will they come up with next? they can’t see the freakin road that’s like a highway???

          anyway, i definitely believe gz was out on his *usual* sunday self appointed NW watch patrol.
          i base this on the early taffee interviews when he keeps saying it. and gz’s lack of credibility when he said he wasn’t!!LOL

          but i think gz was made aware by someone, probably at the scene or maybe the ride to the station, to NOT mention that little detail.
          because many of the cops that were around at the time have had at least some sort of contact with him prior. and him being the cop groupie he is, had to think he was their buddy and knew ALL of them and ALL about them! he may have even complained about some of them.,
          But i think one of them might of Reminded him to make it clear that he wasn’t on patrol.

          i think he probably woulda loved for the cops to know he was on patrol and spotted, hunted down and captured the criminal.. except he was dead wrong.

      • seallison says:

        Rinehart Road where there are many car dealerships probably. Between the 7-11 and the Sams Club.

        • Xena says:

          “Probably”????? That speaks volumes. Have you watched Dave’s video? Have you watched the M&I Bank video that the State entered in discovery? Have you watched the 7-Eleven video to see the time that Trayvon left that store? Compare it to the time that Osterman is seen on the M&I bank video, please.

      • seallison says:

        Xena – Google maps shows a number of Car Dealerships. I think that is why they are saying that.

    • Xena says:

      Yes, Shannon. Looking at that long walk there and back, with the sundown and rain, it would be tiring no matter what age. Then to know after you enter the gated community that there’s still more walking to where you live — well, to be so close to home, cut-off by an enraged man with a gun — I just can’t imagine what all went through Trayvon’s mind.

      • seallison says:

        Sams Club and Kohl videos. Wonder what that is about. There are a number of Car dealerships along Rineheart Road all around the 7-11.

        • Xena says:

          It was either FDLE or the FBI who obtained those videos, including the one from a surrounding complex. According to their report, there was nothing of any significance in them.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I thought the SPD obtained them early on.

  24. Xena says:

    Dave’s video, showing the route to and from the 7-Eleven. Notice the roads.

  25. Xena says:


    Oh Lord Xena!

    I have 3 babies. (Cats) All of them are rescues. One I have had for 13 years, no tail, her name is Nubs (LOL) very shy. One is 8, and a purrrrfect attack cat………..even when a doorbell rings in a commercial on TV……..she runs to the door and growls? (Why? I have no clue? She will hiss at anything standing, except me.) The third is a young male that was going to be put down. He is 5 now. I adopted him 4 years ago. He is the sweetest, most loving of the three.

    • nancybenefiel says:

      I think it’s pretty obvious that John lied. He totally changed his testimony. The only question is was he lying from police pressure or because of some loyalty to GZ. He seems to have seen a lot in 10 seconds. I would think that a grown man, seeing a kid sitting on top of a bigger guy would simply pull the kid off, thus freeing the bigger man. Instead John went inside and had his girlfriend call 911? very odd behaviour

  26. Mary Davis says:

    @ Professor L. BTW The e-mail address just said your name. That is what made me a little suspicious. TIA

  27. Mary Davis says:

    @ Professor L. I sent a donation in that went through pay pal. It stated that my donation went to Fredericle. i don’t remember this happening on my last donation. With all this hacking going on, I want to be sure my donation is going straight to you. Please confirm. Thank you

  28. Xena says:

    Good Morning Everyone!!!

    It’s below zero in my neck of the woods with pure white snow on the ground and a song in a my heart. Hope this wakes you up and puts some pep in your step.

  29. seallison says:

    I guess everyone just stayed on the last post to discuss the case today. Good night everyone.

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