Open Thread: Thursday, January 10, 2013

Welcome to the Open Thread.

To supplement my complaint, I have been assembling more information and documentation for law enforcement on the cyberstalker. As a result, I have not had sufficient time to write a new article for today.

Later, perhaps.

The cyberstalker’s other site also has been shut down and no longer exists.

Evidently, he is on the run because his twitter account no longer exists.

I recently found out that the prosecuting attorney in the Darrold Stenson case decided not to seek the death penalty at his retrial. This is very good news.

I represented Mr. Stenson at his death penalty trial in 1994. He was convicted and sentenced to death.

Last year, the Washington State Supreme Court reversed his conviction in an 8-1 decision and remanded the case to the trial court because the prosecution withheld exculpatory evidence from the defense that might have changed the outcome, if we had known about it.

I wrote a post about the decision that you can read here.

I linked to the majority and dissenting opinions in the case.

I recommend rereading the opinion, as prosecutorial and police misconduct are two of the seven causes of wrongful convictions. I wrote about false confessions earlier this week.

Ciao,

Fred

225 Responses to Open Thread: Thursday, January 10, 2013

  1. blushedbrown says:

    @Xena,

    Now, now Xena, behave. LOL 🙂

  2. Xena says:

    There’s been some discussion about Mark Osterman’s real job and Sondra Osterman. I have nothing more to offer in that regard but did find something.

    The Florida Dept. of State, Divisions of Corporations, provides info that on 4/8/2005, Sondra and Mark incorporated “Exceptional Mortgage Processing Inc. They failed to file an annual report and the company was administratively dissolved on 9/15/06. Okay. So now we know why she had to go back to working for others. 🙂

  3. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    If George had time to aim to avoid hitting his left hand, why didn’t he aim UNDER his hand?

  4. colin black says:

    Jun
    Apparently, Asian Americans are the new Jews LOL

    I thought the article was written by a comedian until I read it, and they were serious

    Is it because they are good at math an not frivilous with hard earned cash?

    • Rachael says:

      I think it wad the last line where they explained it.

    • Jun says:

      LOL

      Although the premise of the title sounds like the beginning of a punchline in stand up comedy

      They are saying that a lot of Asian people are being held back from Ivy league schools and are expected to have double the intelligence of every other race of people, to be accepted into Ivy, which was apparently similar sanction they did to Jews

      on another note, I believe being good at mathematics generally means you will be smarter with your money, since you are good with numbers

  5. colin black says:

    I got a cold phone call telling me my number had been entered into a lottery prize draw.
    And congratulations I had won.Three thousand dollars an a two week all inclusive stay at an Orlando hotel situated within 30 min drive to Disney land .
    There was an actuall American person on the phone as oppossed to a recording/
    After she breathlessly gave me the great news.I answered ..Not interested,,,,
    She seemed stunned that I answered in the negative
    Im not silly an know its some kind of scam.Ive had simmilar calls before an theres always some kind of catch 22 scenario.
    Forinstance in the past Ive simply said know to the free holidy flight money ect Just send me a check in the post for the full cash amount/
    They dont want to do that.
    Anyway this time took a different tact.
    As she feined dissbeleif an asked why I didnt want a free holiday in
    Florida
    I answered because I value my life I reminded her of the British tourist recently shot dead in Miami went on about how any yahoo with a gun can shoot you dead an claim self defence an as soon as I metioned fogens name she hung up.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Good one, colin!

    • Xena says:

      as I metioned fogens name she hung up.

      Good for you!!! In 2009 a friend invited me to move to Florida when I retired Now knowing that any nut can carry a gun, I’m happy that hearing about flying cockroaches in Florida discouraged me from considering ever retiring in that State. 🙂

      • Lynn says:

        We justify the “flying cockroaches” by saying…”They’re not cockroaches, they’re Palmetto bugs!” lol If you ever have to kill one crawling on a wall, you better make sure you get them in one blow or they will fly back and attack you.

  6. Malisha says:

    Maybe even NooJoo with MoJo.

  7. Malisha says:

    Jun, I hereby grant you permission to call yourself NooJoo.

    • Jun says:

      LOL

      I came across that article, after watching Red Tails

      In the beginning scene, there was a really racist study done on blacks and they wrote the conclusion of the study, which was that blacks are mentally inferior and are cowards who are subservient

      I was curious who did such a racist study, if it were true so I googled it and then came across a bunch of Stormfront type websites and never really got an answer

      Stormfront is a KKK headquarters online type website that accepts some Hispanics

      Being curious what racists and rednecks were saying about Asian people, I decided to google “Asians are…” and then new jews came up and then I read the article LOL

      on another note, the racists and rednecks are afraid that Asians and Jews will be running America LOL

  8. Lynn says:

    Looks like more news for the haters to hate about. Tyler Perry offering reward cash and getting Al Sharpton involved into Florida dirty cop cases involving missing minorities. http://omg.yahoo.com/news/tyler-perry-offers-100k-reward-fla-cold-cases-162355774.html

    Sad to say I’m from this state.

  9. Jun says:

    http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/12/at-the-ivies-asians-are-the-new-jews/

    Apparently, Asian Americans are the new Jews LOL

    I thought the article was written by a comedian until I read it, and they were serious

  10. acemayo says:

    If TM was up to no good would he not being trying to see if he can
    get into a mail box or find one left open, would try to find a door
    that was open to the club house.

  11. Jilly says:

    I’m looking forward to the text and messages de la Rionda asked Fogen about at the bail hearing something about referring to a “Reverend and the victim’s Father Tracy Martin “also did Fogen ever give the police the supposed address he went to get ?

  12. colin black says:

    He even tells Serino the next day at the re enactment .
    When explaining away his sudden memory lapse of twin trees lane
    An how he couldnt give them his location due to his memory fail.

    He is insistant that Sean is demanding of an adress from him wich we know is not true

    But as he re tells the converstion to Serrino re giveing dispatch an adress he suddenly throws in a grain of truth by saying
    I think I gave them my adress.

  13. colin black says:

    seallison says:

    January 10, 2013 at 11:49 pm

    He never gave his address – that night or any other time.

    I cant stand to hear his whiney derrenged voice anymore

    But diesnt he gave Sean his address an then say

    Shit I didnt wabt to do that or say that or words to that efffect
    Says shit didnt ought to do that
    Cos I dont know where this KID is at.

    Thought he may have been colse enough to over hear .H ence the shit expleative as he had slipped up an divulged need to know info away to prying spying aerdrums

    Although I think the actuall reply he gives out his adress is redacted from files an blanked out in the n e n call.

    Though I may be wrong wouldnt be the first time.

    • Lady2Soothe says:

      Ths closest he got to giving an address:

      3:26 Dispatcher: OK, do you live in the area?
      3:29 Zimmerman: Yeah, yeah…..(unintelligible)
      3:30 Dispatcher: What, what’s your apartment number?
      3:31 Zimmerman: It’s a home. It’s 1 9 5 0.
      3:34 (banging noise – flashlight?)
      3:35 Zimmerman: Oh crap, I don’t want to give that out loud. I don’t know where this kid is.

      • Eric says:

        Did you find it funny how GZ corrected the dispatcher over the apartment comment? Gz has self-worth issues.

        • jm says:

          Eric: “Did you find it funny how GZ corrected the dispatcher over the apartment comment? Gz has self-worth issues.”

          I thought it was a sign of the typical arrogance/snobbism of the Zimmerman family that came out later through RZ, Jr and the rest of the family, but it was ironic because the condo/townhome was nothing more than a rental apartment.that is on 2 floors.

    • gblock says:

      He started to give his address, and then stopped and said he didn’t want to do that.

      • whonoze says:

        Of course, since there are only three streets in RATL, knowing his address is 1950-something makes it pretty easy to figure out, especially since the other two streets don’t have a 1950…

  14. Kelly Payne says:

    Zimmerman grabbed or tackled trayvon,his girlfriend heard him say “get off get off!!” the phone goes dead. Zimmerscum and Trayvon are wrestling around on the ground. Trayvon is trying to get away Zimmerscum is trying to keep him from getting away. At some point Trayvon breaks away from Zimmerscum,he may have pushed him in the process we may never know. trayvon runs but he slips on the wet grass and falls causing that abrasion on the palm side of his ring finger. he gets up but zimmerman grabs him he sees the gun and starts screaming for help.Zimmerscum starts interrogating him.He screams “i don’t know!!” he continues to scream for help and begging for his life. Zimmerscum has him by the front of his shirts,he’s still angry he tells Trayvon he’s gonna die tonight.Trayvon makes a horrific shriek and says either don’t or help. shot rings out the screaming stops. Trayvon puts his hands on his chest and because Zimmerscum was holding on to Trayvon’s shirts when he was shot trayvon falls face down.he soon dies.i believe the last thing trayvon saw was hate and contempt on Zimmerscums face. he never knew why. He killed trayvon because he got angry and lost it.

  15. colin black says:

    Jun says:

    January 10, 2013 at 7:26 pm

    Another reason could be that he saw Trayvon on his phone, and did not want Trayvon to give a good description to authorities as he could have relayed Fogenhats’ home address to Deedee and she could have been alerted

    The accussed was on the phone with authorites as he followed Trayvon.
    He phoned the police on Blahckkk youths so often he had there number on speed dial.
    The dispatchers at 911 an 311 are the same people an are all probably knowlagble re the accused his name andress.
    It would not even enter his personalty type that anything he would or couuld do
    Would be perceived as wrong creepy illegall .
    He had no idea Trayvon was on a hands free device engaged in a phone call with a third party ear wittness.
    Or he would never hace spun the.
    Whats your problem homie ?You gotta problem now lie?
    If he had relised he wasnt on drugs something wrong with him he on drugs.
    But was talking on a hands free.
    Back in the pre mobile phone era you knew to cross the road when someone came along talking to themselfs.

    Now everyone does it.
    Even me an I dont ecen hhave a hands free device or a mobile.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Does de la Rionda have to release all of his evidence by a certain time?

    • Cercando Luce says:

      It wasn’t that long ago that someone audibly talking alone was probably suffering from psychiatric problems– mid-1990’s for sure! I moved overseas and came back 10 years ago, and frighteningly enough, scary people were all over the supermarkets discussing all kinds of things loudly and at great length, to themselves, it seemed. Had the whole country gone crazy? No, they were early adopters of the prestigious Bluetooth device. It still looks weird to me.

      Fogen is younger but perhaps is a late adopter of technology, and …
      Forget it, there’s no excuse for what he did. He murdered an adolescent without motive. A corrupt police department tried to let him off. There’s no excuse for them either. May they be made responsible for what they all, of their own free will, have done.

    • Jun says:

      Fogenhats always lies to hide something that is why my guess is that he did not want to give out info because someone may be listening, besides the officer, and I believe it may have been Trayvon

  16. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I thought it might be good for us to make a list of evidence we still want to see or that has not been released.

    1. Location of gz vehicle
    2. gz phone records + texts
    3. Witness 7 ?

    Please add to the list.

    • blushedbrown says:

      Witness seven is Brandy Green

    • Malisha says:

      I want to see if Trayvon tried to call 911; there was some suggestion that he did.

      I want to see what happened at the HOA meeting on 3/1/2012.

      I want to see ALL NOTES and reports of any kind, memos, e-mails, etc., about Fogen and by Fogen and to Fogen from/to ANYBODY including the complaints residents made about him running around the neighborhood playing “Walter Mitty.”

      I want to see Wolfinger’s phone records, Lee’s phone records, Shellie’s phone records, Robert Sr.’ s phone records, Tim Smith’s phone records (and contacts from his patrol car while driving Fogen in to the station); all the officers on the scene’s phone records. I want to see the last three murder investigations Serino did, and the murder investigation he did next AFTER Trayvon Martin’s. I want to see ALL of Fogen’s medical records going back ten years. I want to see the info about the woman who called Serino on 2/27/2012 saying she was scared of Fogen (not the cousin, a resident).

      I want to see the interviews with the guys at the shooting range where Fogen and Osterman went to practice with the Kel-tec. I want to see the whole file on the flap over the beating of Sherman Ware, to see if Fogen’s name figures anywhere in that (just guess!).

      I want to hear an interview of Emmanuel Burgess about whether he ever met Fogen and if so, what his experience was.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Good ones. Wouldn’t police phone records be off limits?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I thought the 2/27/2012 call was the cousin. Would you fill me in on that one?

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        I want to see Fogens computer searches, files, photos…. I’m betting there is much to be learned about the lying Zimmerman clan on their computers!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        That would be really illuminating. I wonder if he every created a new blog….maybe even still using the “Joe G” name.

      • Malisha says:

        Serino tells Fogen that somebody called in, she wanted to remain anonymous, and she said she saw Fogen trying to restrain Trayvon. He challenges Fogen and Fogen does his funny little voice thingy where he tries to get all sincere.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks for refreshing my memory, Malisha. Do you think this person is Witness 10?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        And, this is not the woman who called about the 8 year old witness that they have not been able to find, is it?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I also want to know if forensics were performed on the 7-11 bag.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I also would like to know if anyone living north of the T was questioned besides Witness 18.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        It seems to me there had to have been more witnesses….more than just those that called 911 + W 13 (12).

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        You see, the only extra witnesses interviewed were those that lived with the ones who called 911.

      • whonoze says:

        Witnesses 1 & 2 had not called 911. Neither did JonW13 or his wife W12. However, these four are the only witnesses on the original list who saw _something_ on 2/26/12 and did not have a member of their household call 911.

        According to Serino’s report, the SPD made several canvasses of the neighborhood, put up flyers and so on, without turning up additional witnesses. Many of the residents may simply not have been home at the time, or engaged in activities in parts of their homes where they wouldn’t have seen anything. Basically, it seems to me that if you see/hear something unusual followed by a gunshot, you’re going to call 911.

        However, I find it hard to believe that there are zero witnesses to the walking paths taken by GZ and TM before the confrontation. Part of this could be the architecture of the townhomes, which don’t really have living areas with a casual view of the street. The parts of the homes that are open to light and view are all in the back. We know there are no light poles along the dog walk, and it is dark except for areas that are illuminated by residents who have their back porch lights on. But some people do leave their porch lights on, and some people use crazy bright 100W bulbs in their porchlights instead of sane 40W’ers. So if TM and/or GZ headed up and down the dogwalk you’d think maybe at least one other person besides W2 might have seen them.

        But I think the “I don’t want to be involved” instinct is pretty strong, and especially so in this case, given the “exposure” of the HOA.

        —-

        I don’t think there is a witness 10. I think a clerical error led them to skip “10” and they already had prepped documents with the IDs 11 through 20 in place, and it was easier to just leave slot 10 blank than to reassign the number and redo all the paperwork. One of the docs listing the witnesses by number indicated their contact point with the police: whether they called 911, whether they were interviewed, and is so by who and when. There was nothing after #10. How significant could someone be if they were were never contacted, never made a statement, etc.?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Whonoze wrote, “But I think the “I don’t want to be involved” instinct is pretty strong, and especially so in this case, given the “exposure” of the HOA.”

        It think there IS a strong possibility that someone else DID see something, but didn’t want to get involved.

        Such a person might be glad right now to be out of the limelight, but I think that, as the years move on, their non action will weigh heavily on their conscience.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I think w10 is Trayvon’s cousin. The list of items on the 2nd discovery dump says memo’s are included of all 4 unidentified witnesses. A memo was included of Trayvon’s cousin’s interview.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        @blushedbrown
        Page 2 memos O’Steen interviews. All the unidentified witnesses were listed, so I just crossed them off. I don’t know where he is in the line up, but he is one of them.

        http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/redacted%20second%20discovery.pdf

    • Cercando Luce says:

      I want to know if there is any DNA from Trayvon on the rim of the flashlight, or on the rim of the pistol barrel, to have cut his ring finger.

      • jm says:

        i am looking forward to GZ’s texts and phone calls pre and post killing of Trayvon.

      • seallison says:

        I really want to see if there is any evidence on Trayvons AND Fogens pants. Have heard or seen nothing about the trousers.

      • seallison says:

        Did Trayvon use the phone to capture a photo or two of the Thug.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Was there any of Trayvon’s DNA or saliva on gz’s zipper pull tab.

      • Lynn says:

        @Cercando Luce
        If someone shines a flashlight in your face blinding you and you swat at it to get it out of your face not knowing there are spikes on the end of it…http://www.batteriesinaflash.com/images/flashlight/NP138C_160.jpg
        …Wouldn’t that could cause a 1/8-1/4 inch abrasion on your inner ring finger????

        @YAHTC
        I’ve wondered the same thing about the zipper pull. We all know Fogen’s reverse stories. I had my hand on his mouth/ he had his hand on my mouth. Makes you wonder if Trayvon’s saliva or DNA was there transferred from Fogen’s hands.

        As for me, I would like to see Fogen re-enact the ‘just pulled my gun out and shot him’ BUT not from a standing, whip it out from my hip and point stance. I’d like to see it from the laying on my back with someone straddling the exact area my gun is in, using the opposite hand that I’m use to using, all the while doing a spin-around-Qwik-Draw-McGraw maneuver to get the gun facing the right direction to shoot AND achieve the perfect straight angle through the heart shot. Is that too much to ask?

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Oh yes, the FIBER analysis which has not been made public. I want to see that!

        • fogens blood was found on his firearm.

          It is still my FIRM belief that the injury to the right side of fogens nose was from him being hit by the recoil of his weapon.

          I don’t really think anyone can dissuade me from that belief either.

          It would be interesting to find out how many times fogen went to the range to practice with SHELLIE’s handgun?

          • Xena says:

            It is still my FIRM belief that the injury to the right side of fogens nose was from him being hit by the recoil of his weapon.

            I don’t really think anyone can dissuade me from that belief either.

            I agree. GZ shot with one hand — not two. No matter how many times he practiced shooting with two hands, it did not prepare him to shoot with one hand. He shot with his right hand, and his nose was injured on the right side.

          • Why would he practice using shelLIE’s gun and not his own?

          • Xena says:

            @mountainmanpat. I don’t think that GZ purchased a gun in his own name. We believed that he purchased one for himself and another for ShelLIE because that is what the media reported. If they got that info from GZ or a member of his family, it could be incorrect.

          • Personally I don’t believe it either as I’ve seen no reports of fogen having to surrender his weapon.

          • Xena says:

            I have the characteristic of being curious and I love conducting research. So, I went to the following site and checked out the security firm’s guy. It only provides for those licensed to carry in the course of their employment. Sure enough, he is licensed to carry in private investigations statewide. Then I entered the last name “Osterman” and guess what? He is not listed as being licensed to conceal carry in Florida in an employment capacity.

            That means that if Osterman is indeed licensed to conceal carry in Florida, it’s as a private individual. Yet, he purportedly trained GZ how to shoot and gun safety? Well, I also read Florida’s conceal carry requirements to apply for a license, and it requires the name(s) of certified trainer(s).

            http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/access/individual.html?

          • Good reason for osterman to throw fogen under the bus with his book.

            So osterman trained fogen, yet he wasn’t a licensed firearms instructor?

            I checked the link you provided…..Yup…..no osterman on there.

            Now here’s the rub……osterman was an ex cop (fired), and an air marshal, all without a CCW?

            Again this whole thing gets stranger by the day.

          • Xena says:

            Now here’s the rub……osterman was an ex cop (fired), and an air marshal, all without a CCW?

            It was never confirmed that Osterman works or worked as an Air Marshall. From what I understand, based on Osterman’s statement released in discovery docs, a reporter researched for GZ’s marriage license and found that the ceremony was conducted by “Sondra Osterman.” She then found Sondra’s Facebook page and there, saw a pic of Mark. She remembered seeing that face escorting GZ out of the jail when he was released on bail.

            It was due to some verbiage about his job was traveling and shooting people, that the reporter gathered he was an Air Marshall. In his written statement, his employment is redacted but a lowercase “i” can be seen where it says he works “as an i.”

            Well, now we know it’s not as an “investigator” that requires carrying a concealed weapon.

          • Xena

            Consider the body mechanic’s?

            Lay on you back and try to pull something from your waistband.

            Although not impossible, it involves some awkward movements of the elbow and wrist.

          • Xena says:

            Lay on you back and try to pull something from your waistband.

            Although not impossible, it involves some awkward movements of the elbow and wrist.

            I don’t believe for one second that GZ was on his back when he shot and killed Trayvon. In the Dooley case, the attorneys had witnesses and Dooley physically re-enact at trial. The same should be required of GZ. They should have him lay on his back and re-enact how he restrained Trayvon’s arm and still got his gun from its holster, aimed, and shot.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Cercando, would you explain to me more about fiber analysis and what it might reveal?

      • Cercando Luce says:

        @yahtzee
        I have not kept a file of what is where, but I did see in a document in one of the dumps that Corey’s office requested fiber analysis, the results of which haven’t been made public. Such an analysis could find something like:
        Denim fibers from Fogen’s pants on Trayvon’s hoodie (which would show F had straddled T, or that F had pinned T’s arms under his knees)
        Fibers from Trayvon’s hoodie on the inner knees and crotch of F’s pants
        and more.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        That would be very interesting, Cercando!

    • seallison says:

      Ping logs (just kidding)

    • whonoze says:

      Matt Gutman’s recording of Attny. Crump’s interview with DeeDee.

    • whonoze says:

      Every photograph in the evidence pool released as a .TIFF file in it’s native resolution. Every audio and video file released in the format in which it was originally recorded, without any addditional cross-conversion or compression.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Very interesting……would more be revealed that way by expert analysis, whonoze?

      • whonoze says:

        Maybe. For the photos, it’s not even a case of expert analysis, but detail that would become evident to the naked eye. Whether that would show anything probative, I have no idea. But, basically, every piece of visual evidence released to the public in this case has been compromised by being reduced. It’s all sort of going in the same direction as the bad halftone screen reproduction of the Wagner photo that was in the early discovery .pdf, just not as far.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I would like to know more about Osterman’s wife after my watching their interview with Dr. Phil.

      There is something very subtle about her that I can’t put my finger on…..but my intuition tells me I should pay attention to her.

      • Xena says:

        There is something very subtle about her that I can’t put my finger on…..but my intuition tells me I should pay attention to her.

        @Yahtc. Thank you. I’m happy to know I’m not the only one who feels that way. For ShelLIE to be a stay-at-home student, I would like to know how she and Sondra met for Sondra to introduce her to GZ.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I think gz worked with Sondra and, as a co-worker introduced him to Shellie.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I just think I want to know how Sondra “operates” — I just know there is something I am not catching onto.

        • Xena says:

          I understand — can’t put my finger on it either, but there is something there.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Me three.
            There was something she did in the interview with Dr. Phil, that me made think she was remembering something and just shook her head and look like she was about the cry. That has bothered me for a long time. If I can find interview will post the time and what Dr Phil said at the time.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2012/7/15/12194/6777

        excerpt from article:

        Zimmerman’s marriage certificate lists Sondra Osterman as the person who presided over the ceremony. Sondra Osterman’s Facebook profile shows she’s married to Mark, who posted that he travels for a living and works for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. Among his Facebook likes: “Support George Zimmerman.
        “Sondra’s likes: I hate it when I wake up in the morning and Barack Obama is President, Save George Zimmerman from racial onslaught.”

      • “Sondra’s likes: I hate it when I wake up in the morning and Barack Obama is President, Save George Zimmerman from racial onslaught.”

        She’s disgusting! I mean really!?

        yeah, so i couldn’t stand it when W became president..
        A) imo, he clearly won because of his social economic privilege
        B). the *C* student at Yale ( the president of the USA made Cs at yale/ how bad was he with those kinda connections yet barely pass?! he probably technically failed!!)
        C).b/c he couldn’t even win by vote he had to steal the election(s) thanks to those same connections and money

        but NOT once did i “wake up in the morning” thinking about how much i hated W and post it on my facebook!!
        weirdo!!

        as for gz’s racial onslaught, she’s obviously brainwashed. gz killed a kid and wasn’t arrested! he would have been *onslaught-ed* even if the kid was white- maybe more so!
        so she needs to get over her stupid ignorant BS!

        what freaked me out about sondra on Dr.Phil was how she sat there and didn’t flinch when her HUSBAND and FATHER of her child said he’s “DIE for” gz!!! WTF IS THAT?????

        do you know how fast i woulda dumped his ass??!!! i probably would of punched him in the nose and started beating his head on the ground right then and there on Dr.Phil show!!
        what husband would say he would DIE for some freak kid killer joe schmo!???
        she is a weirdo!

  17. Jun says:

    You ever notice that the Zimmerstalkers kind of act like a comical character of Dave Chapelle’s called “Clayton Bigsby”?

    It might be offensive to some to watch it but the character is a white supremacist and the character says many of the same things Zimmerstalkers say:

    (1) The “black” guy asked for it (refrained from using their actual word here

    (2) Blames Al Sharpton and other black civil rights leaders

    (3) Blames the liberal media

    Fogenhats used a lot of racism in his crime to get support

    (1) He claimed to be a white person on various documents

    (2) He used the TV stereotype caricature of a black thug and how they are dangerous to white people

    (3) He blamed the media and allege that they try to make white people into devils

  18. Jun says:

    I am guessing it was David Piercy

    He and a few other Trolls, stalk this page, to try and harass anyone or intimidate anyone who supports Trayvon (do not know how he plans to do it, considering there is over 2 million of us)…

    I know he stalks people off of here

    Whenever I post, he calls me a “Leather-tard” and then he will switch accounts and then say a bunch of mean things about Trayvon and black people, and then call people Tray-tards and start talking crap about Crump and Al Sharpton…

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Yeah, our Trayvon team on Newsvine decided that there were a lot of zimmie “alters” there.

    • Malisha says:

      OMG that stuff is so sophomoric! They belong in the same high class of people with Fogen and his tribe.

      • Xena says:

        Well Malisha, I did not share this with you earlier, but remember the Yahoo article about the press release announcing Lonnie’s petition? Someone commented on that page that you are a racist along with other disparaging remarks about me and the professor. I reported it to Yahoo and they removed the comment. I was surprised because Yahoo generally does not remove anything without putting those reporting it through hoops.

      • Malisha says:

        Xena I think that’s hilarious. Over on Jonathan Turley’s blog I got into it with some fool who called me a racist and I said, essentially, Yeah, I am a racist. What are you gonna do about it? They had a fit. If they could have stamped their little foots and disappeared into the earth like Rumplestiltskin they would have but their little foots didn’t reach the ground! :mrgreen:

        Everybody do the mess-around.

      • Jun says:

        I am curious, how exactly they are basing the character traits of hate and racism, to be attributed to you?

      • Malisha says:

        Jun, it started like this. On Turley’s blog there were some real Fogen-supporters (including, “moderately,” Turley himself) who insisted, more than life itself, that (a) Fogen was not a racist; and that (b) Trayvon was a thug who attacked him for being WHITE; and, my personal favorite, (c) Anyone who ever believed anything that Sharpton backed was an anti-white racist who did not believe in justice, but who did believe that Tawana Brawley’s case should have ended in a public hanging of any three white men she chose to target.

        In one of my comments I said that I was actually a white Jewish woman 65 years old, that I was born and raised in this country, and that I believed EVERYBODY born and raised in this country was racist to one degree or another, and my personal solution to that as a personal problem was to be aware of it and deal with it. I mentioned that I had discussed this with two or three of my Black friends as well and with perhaps a half dozen of my other white and non-white, Jewish and non-Jewish friends too.

        Boom, all of a sudden “Malisha admitted to being a racist” and they were off to the races. But of course they were not saying anything of value and they were using that mistaken concept (mistaken on THEIR part, not mine) to bolster their idiotic bigoted rants. So then I jumped into a couple of them. I can’t remember their names; I wiped them off the blog with some withering responses to their foolish jerk-off comments. One remained, and about every three weeks to a month he comes back into the Trayvon Martin case with an off-thread comment saying Fogen was right, and that Trayvon Martin and anyone “like” him should be killed, and then I beat him up again and we have another three weeks to a month of peace from him. A few of Turley’s regulars have jumped in right behind me acting “cheerleader” when I give this guy another spanking. I think he likes S/M and I’ve accidentally become his Internet Dominatrix. But it’s a little bit fun dressing him down at times. 😈

      • Omg.!!!!!! i was THINKING the same thing BEFORE you said he liked S&M!! LOLO
        You are his dominatrix!! He has to love a good flogging for sure!!!LOLOLO

  19. I’m wondering if there is another reason why Fogen didn’t
    want to give Sean his home address, saying, “I dont want to give out my home address. I don’t know where this kid is”. Perhaps he was storing his ill-gotten gains at his home and didn’t want the police there.

    • Rachael says:

      Yes, someone here has written about this before and it has been noted that GZ has not given his address on other occasions as well, making him/her wonder if that was why.

    • Jun says:

      Another reason could be that he saw Trayvon on his phone, and did not want Trayvon to give a good description to authorities as he could have relayed Fogenhats’ home address to Deedee and she could have been alerted

  20. SpecialladyT says:

    Bravo, Professor!!!

    No words can express how happy I am that someone (YOU) finally got this mentally disturbed person and he will finally pay for all the evil he has set forth in this tragic and heartbreaking case.

    This evil person has stalked, harassed and even threatened people online and he will finally pay for his inexcusable, disgusting and pathetic actions. This doesn’t include what this person can or would be capable in the REAL outside world. I wouldn’t be surprised if we watch him on the 6 o’clock news, one day in the future.

    Again Professor, BRAVO, friend!

    Justice for Trayvon Martin

  21. Erica says:

    maybe it was money or gold,or saving bonds

  22. sdunn5 says:

    By the way the appropriate agency in my experience to report the naughty behavior these simpletons are doing should start with the FTC Federal Trade Commission.

  23. sdunn5 says:

    Noah, sound it out….CA-RAK-ER. Sound familiar…..anyone?????

  24. colin black says:

    Operacarla says:

    January 10, 2013 at 4:58 pm

    Can anyone fill me in on something? At times fogen and shipping $200.00 worth of something is mentioned. I missed this. What is this about? Thanks in advance

    He went to a post office an paid to ship or fed ex something out of atate soon after the murder ocoured i i r c
    No one except the acussed an anyone he trusts no what he was so anxious to send away from perhaps eyeys acompanyd with a search warrant.

  25. colin black says:

    Great to hear from you Val……..

  26. colin black says:

    Trayvon Martin………Haveing been present in the Retreat At Twin Lakes for seven days would have been noticed by sevral people.
    A tall gangly teen suddenly apears on an about there three streets gated comunity.There are no shops with in the Retreat an Trayvon a typical teenager would have been in about the seven eleven an comeing an going through the gates an any local short cuts used by local youths on a daily basis.
    Given the attatude of the few resident liveing there F Taffe an certain H O A / Others.
    Your never going to convince me that the jungle telegraph in that Retreat had well an truely gone into over load at this mysterious Blahckkk Youth prowling there three streets an two entrys/exit.
    The accussed was probably one whom had never laid eyes on this new presence on his turf.
    But Id bet my last penny he had heard all about him an probably given the mindset at the Retreat sevrall sources.
    One of wich would be his stay at home wife.
    Stay at home doesnt mean stay in doors .An SheLie was probably all over the local gosip grape vine.May have well spotted the tall stranger herself.
    Given the accuseds macho outlook on life I doubt he ever went grocery shopping let alone on a weekly basis.
    If you could get a hold of the cctv camra footage for the last few months sunday nights.
    You would never see the accused there helping his wife.
    Id like to see that sunday nights footage the night of the murder.
    Wouldnt suprise me if we would see SheLie alone at the store.
    She may have spotted Trayvon sheltering from the rain by the mail boxes.
    The accused innsistance that a passer by phone his wife an just to say ..I shot someone..
    Would be all the info she would need if she an others had in deed primed him with tales of the mystery tall youth.
    That would imeadiatly convey to her the knowlage that not only had he found the strange tall Youth,
    He had also executed him……………..Tell my wif I shot some guy………………………….
    Remember at the very start of the reconstruction vt.
    He is asked …What made you suspisious of him?
    The first words out his mouth were…MY WIFE….Stops himself an starts his answer again…………Someone tipped of the accused that night that he was stationary under a mail shelter sheltering from the rain .
    An perfect for the takeing.

    • Rachael says:

      He may even have been noticed by GZ himself – and GZ just had a very confrontational way of wanting to find out that night who he was and what he was doing there.

      Yeah, I know he said he had never seen him before, but it is not like I believe anything he says anyway, and it makes more sense (to me anyway) that if he had seen this guy around (and maybe “heard” that he didn’t live there – because he didn’t actually live there), he wanted to find out just what he was doing there, assuming he was not supposed to be there and wrongly profiling him.

    • Jun says:

      Some of the other kids stated that Trayvon used to play football with them whenever he was visiting his pops, or some other sport

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        Yes several people have said that Trayvon would go out and play football with the kids there….Brandy’s son Chad was a football player so it makes sense that when Trayvon came to visit he would join Chad with his friends outside….

        It becomes clearer and clearer every day that passes that Fogen lied about EVERYTHING….. he said that he knew EVERYBODY that lived at RTL…. but funny enough the night he murdered Trayvon there were only one or two people that said they knew him when they were shown his picture….And if he knew EVERYONE wouldn’t it stand to reason that he would have known Chad and by extension Trayvon? I mean….. HE KNOWS EVERYBODY!!!! Just ask him…. he will tell you!!!!

        And how about that story that he didn’t remember the name of the street he was on when he was speaking to the NEN operator? REALLY???? He couldn’t remember the name of the street when there are only THREE streets in the entire neighborhood…..Three streets that he PATROLLED as the NW “captain”….and he drove on THAT VERY ONE every single day coming and going from his townhouse…..

    • Lady2Soothe says:

      The more I think about it the more convinced I am fogen started watching Trayvon much earlier. I’m thinking he spotted Trayvon leaving The Retreat on his way to 7-11 and followed him because he looked “real suspicious”. When Trayvon returned to The Retreat fogen started following him in earnest.

      Maybe that’s just one more reason Trayvon said (per DeeDee) ““why you following me for?” . Maybe Trayvon had even spotted fogen following him prior to his return from 7-11.

      All speculation but I think it’s something worth considering since fogen had a bad habit of peeping out the window and accosting people he *thought* looked like they didn’t belong, because according to him “I know all the kids in my neighborhood, all the adults in my neighborhood”

      • He may have known all the residents…..he may have known all the streets……

        He’s also the one who claims to have a bad memory…….

        “Where do you live?”

        Fogen “I don’t remember, I forgot”

      • Xena says:

        DeeDee stated that she called Trayvon at 6:54 p.m. at which time he was in the mail shed and also informed her that some creepy guy was following him in a car. GZ made his NEN call at 7:09.

        I still say that the State has a reason for entering the M&I Bank video into discovery. Some say that is not Osterman on the vid at 6:38 p.m. but they have not offered any other potential reason for why the State obtained and entered that video.

        Now, connecting the dots, during his re-enactment, GZ caught himself saying that Trayvon looked about to see “who else was there.” What I’ve considered is that Osterman followed Trayvon into that community and then called GZ to take over. When GZ called NEN, he was unsure of what Trayvon was wearing with the exception of a “dark grey hoodie.”

        GZ’s confirmation of “And he’s Black” was for himself because until then, he was reporting what Osterman saw. GZ had not even seen the button on Trayvon’s hoodie until he mentioned it to dispatch. GZ was going by cop script describing Trayvon in a manner to justify a good shoot.

        Upon looking on a dark, rainy night at GZ or Osterman through the window of a car, they resemble each other. So, here’s a man following me in a car, and he drives down RVC where I live. Can’t continue walking that way — need to run from the back. It’s raining so I stand under the mail shed and in doing so, hope that the creepy looking guy went on about his business.

        I leave the mail shed and here’s a car following behind me again.

  27. Operacarla says:

    Can anyone fill me in on something? At times fogen and shipping $200.00 worth of something is mentioned. I missed this. What is this about? Thanks in advance!

    • you know Xena has been wondering about that package for several months.
      but no news yet that i’ve heard… it just occurred to me tho, could it have been the package to omar with that *2nd passport* and check? idk the time period.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Maybe he just insured the passport for that instead of using certified mail.

      • you know i take that dumb suggestion back ( about the passport )

        i used to sell my old designer clothes on ebay so i learned to weight and print out my own postage and USPS would send me the boxes for free.

        so i sent stuff all over the world- ALL OVER! and nothing i ever sent in a two year period did ANYTHING cost anywhere near $100.

        as a matter of fact. there were only 2 items that shipping was over $50.
        1. a woman’s chanel skirt and jacket to paris ( it just proves everything always ends up going home!) and that weighted iirc around 5-6 lbs. and i used a large box so it wouldn’t be stuffed in the box. and i also got insurance and priority international mail. so it was about $40-60…
        2. a really heavy set of legos to i think peru. that was probably $30

        this was right before they started with the flat fee priced boxes they’ve adopted around 2010 i think.

        so it’s my belief that whatever he sent had to weight *alot*, but i still can’t see how he used the USPS *united states postal service* – no matter where he sent it, to cost that much… i just dont understand…

        • Xena says:

          so it’s my belief that whatever he sent had to weight *alot*, but i still can’t see how he used the USPS *united states postal service*

          @Shannon. What about 10-11 boxes shipped overnight? GZ borrowed $3,500 from his parents and deposited it in the credit union account. (He repaid them this amount which is how it is known where the money came from.) He then spent $135 of that money at the USPS.

          If enough jewelry was stolen and sold on eBay, it is possible that shipping 10-11 pkgs via next day delivery would add up to that amount. He would want the money from the sales asap because shortly thereafter is when he left the Osterman’s.

      • Xena says:

        it just occurred to me tho, could it have been the package to omar with that *2nd passport* and check? idk the time period.

        I posted a response to Opera yesterday morning in the other thread. I looked up the info from the credit union’s statements then and had the exact date. The amount was $135.00 that GZ spent at the USPS in Lake Mary, FL. It was during the first week of April while he was living with the Ostermans and before his arrest.

      • it doesn’t cost that much to insure something.. maybe $10 extra on something worth grands…

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Do you think he bought a money order?

      • yep, sending several overnights it could add up.

        BUT< he would HAVE to have an Ebay account- in his own name, as well as the paypal and they all have to be connected to *his* bank account. they are very strict about all that. they even call your bank themselves to make sure you and your ss are the same.

        • Xena says:

          BUT< he would HAVE to have an Ebay account- in his own name, as well as the paypal and they all have to be connected to *his* bank account. they are very strict about all that. they even call your bank themselves to make sure you and your ss are the same.

          It was rumored that the feds examined the laptop that GZ had with him when he came to Jacksonville, and they found that he had an eBay account. I use the word “rumored” because it was reported on a blog and then repeated, but unable to be verified.

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        I believe the postage bill was $135.00 not $200.00 and another poster at another pro Trayvon site had an interesting theory that seems reasonable to me…. perhaps Fogen was paying for a P.O. BOX? This was around the time he started soliciting for donations and I know that O’Smeara has said on more than one occasion that there have been donations that arrived in the form of checks and money orders from those that didn’t wish to use the paypal “peter pan” option…. I am thinking that since Fogen left his home the very night he murdered Trayvon he would need a reliable location to retrieve mail….

        • Xena says:

          Fogen was paying for a P.O. BOX? This was around the time he started soliciting for donations and I know that O’Smeara

          It was about a week before he put up his begging site and IIRC, his begging site did not provide an address to send donations. The donations by snail mail came after O’Mara took over the account.

          Additionally, it was at a post office in Lake Mary, and according to Osterman, GZ left the Osterman’s house around the same time that he spent money at the post office.

          • tinytruthseeker says:

            Right….so maybe he had it set up for SheLIE? She didn’t leave with him when he left the Osterman’s….and if it was just a week before the begging site went up he may have been making plans for it…. perhaps considering including an address to send checks…. he would have had to be prepared with a location if he was going to accept money that way right? I think too that Fogen is such a liar and so sneaky that he would have wanted his mail to be forwarded to a P.O.BOX regardless if he intended to use it to collect donations…. he wouldn’t want his hero Mark to see all his past due bills coming to their house right?

          • Xena says:

            he wouldn’t want his hero Mark to see all his past due bills coming to their house right?

            GZ abandoned his home on 2/27/12. It’s not my impression that he would spend money to rent a PO box in April to get his mail. Neither would he want to because that would trace back to Lake Mary and people would know where he was.

            Nah. I’m sticking to the unction that GZ shipped out stolen property that he sold on eBay. He needed to get it out of Osterman’s house before he left there.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Maybe, the money was to pay a year’s rent on a P.O. Box.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Could he have paid C.O.D. for the other gun?

    • I don’t think he actually mailed anything. He seemed to set himself up for the future, such as buying a year’s worth of Internet and prepaying cellular needs. It’s possible that he prepaid several postage packages for future use? He knew he would need to mail some things in the future. What do you think?

    • jm says:

      If GZ was shipping by Priority or Express mail there should be tracking available. Can’t believe you would ship anything of any value without tracking to be sure the person you sent it to got the merchandise. Someone mentioned he may have bought a money order with the money. Wonder if there is any record at USPS exactly what was purchased on that date.

      • The USPS does keep records….ad I keep copies of all the receipts of my mailings.

        Recently I shipped 2 stamp albums to a collector in British Columbia…..They wouldn’t fit in any of the flat rate boxes.
        The weight packaged was 14lbs…..The cost of postage was $38.42.

        If he was selling goods on ebay? Then ebay would have record of it….what, when, where, price & who to.

        This is an interesting concept as fogen has proven he’ll do just about anything for money.

        Another idea could be that he was shipping stuff in preparation for him taking flight?………Remember the bullet proof vests he asked shelLIE to purchase as recorded in the jailhouse phone calls?

        • Xena says:

          Another idea could be that he was shipping stuff in preparation for him taking flight?………Remember the bullet proof vests he asked shelLIE to purchase as recorded in the jailhouse phone calls?

          Keep the dates and sequence of events in mind. That transaction at the post office was on 4/6/12. It was the same day that his attorney in the civil case filed a report with the court advising that GZ received money in July 2011 from the debtor/defendant that he only recent became aware of through the bankruptcy trustee in the Aames case.

          Also on 4/6/12, GZ made transactions in Cambridge, MD. Apparently on that day, he left the Osterman’s house.

          GZ launched his first begging site that weekend. His attorneys dumped him that following Monday, and GZ was arrested on 4/11/12.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      I keep in mind that he might have run out of cash for his P.O. transactions and used his bank card. $135 is just what showed up on his statement.

  28. seallison says:

    Professor – What would be the motivation. Does a Prosecutor lose his or her job if their conviction rate is not at a certain level. Is it because they are overworked and some just do not dig through all the evidence.

    It just seems odd, when a persons life is on the line, that they would play silly-buggers to win. To me, they may have disassociated themselves with the human element both for the victim and the accused and have the attitude – all in a days work.

    Is it an ego thing, a racist thing. I just do not get it.

    I know the American prisons have a large minority population. In Canada, the majority in prisons are aboriginal or Metis. Could it be inadequate defence attorneys or simply a matter of social status forcing individuals to resort to criminal activity. Many reasons.

    I may be entirely wrong with this thought. When armed forces personnel are returning from war or whatever, are they not looking for jobs. If there are no jobs, these veterans may be using government programs to make it through. Does anyone think there may be a relationship.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Re: your penultimate paragraph:
      What about the social status of the judges and prosecutors, compared to that of the defendants? The former surely are reinforced in dissociating from the human element if the defendant under their authority is very different from them (in their own eyes).

      Come to think of it, it could have been for such sociological reasons that the (white, attractive, female, high-status physician-) -defendant in the case of Andrew Bagby’s murder was released on bail AND was given custody of her vulnerable infant.

      • Xena says:

        In the Bagby case, the judge was a woman. She felt that the defendant, being a doctor, could prepare her own appeal, and also that it was a single crime presenting no risk to anyone else.

        If I had been the judge, I think I would have defaulted to believing that if the defendant murdered Andrew, the father of her child, that she might look at the child and see Andrew and cause that child harm too.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        @Xena
        So the judge could look at the defendant and say she was enough like the judge to be excused from being treated like a defendant.

        • Xena says:

          @Xena
          So the judge could look at the defendant and say she was enough like the judge to be excused from being treated like a defendant.

          In that case, pretty much. Then too, the defendant at that stage was without legal counsel and proceeding pro se. If Canadian judges operate on the same level as many U.S. judges when it comes to pro se litigants, then you generally have one extreme to the other. Judges either allow lots of freeway, or very little.

    • I think the motivation involved Wolfinger’s history with RZ Sr. The fact that they both grew up in the same area, they both served in Vietnam around the same time, and Wolfinger’s son (Robert) is rumored to be the godson of RZ Sr. (Robert) appears to be more than a mere coincidence to me. Someone decided very quickly and authoritatively that GZ was “okay” that night. GZ was assured he would not be touched, so he spun his tales to fit. IMHO.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @Diary –

        Is it not possible that the FBI (or FDLE) could question Wolfinger and ask directly if RZ Sr. is godfather to Wolfinger’s son? There should be a baptismal record with signatures of the godparents. That would be a blockbuster if the Feds decide to pursue SPD for its early conduct on this case..

    • Judy75201 says:

      Short answer is, yes! The DA is a political position, and getting re-elected on a “tough on crime” platform is standard. They push their ADAs for convictions.

  29. Val says:

    Over the last several months I have followed this blog…mainly because of the maintained civility and honest and open discussion of this case. I rarely post…mostly reading others views and comments.

    I wanted to post here yesterday but I got caught up in the AIS security lawsuit against Fogen !! regarding Piranha Mom theory of Fogen’s possible ambitions of upstarting a security company. This to me seems a likely scenario. I went back and read an article posted near the beginning of this case that pointed out the HOAs role in making Fogen the NW captain. However, I see that that Xena beat me to the post…but I hope all have read it…there are a few interesting tib bits to chew on…such as a noted sudden spike in “burglaries and breakins” at RTL, the racial demographics of RTL which were possible grounds for Fogen to assert the need for increased security and his role in making multiple calls to NEN. The writer of this blog pointed out the few crime committed involved stolen bikes,copper wire,etc….hummm interesting. I will repost the article in case others missed it.
    http://redyankeepress.blogspot.com/2012/05/zimmerman-gets-little-help-from-cracker.html

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      The following is an excerpt from the article that Val and Xena have linked us:

      [[ “Noah Caraker, an administrative employee of the Seminole County Public Schools, acting in the capacity as the then Board President of the Retreat at Twin Lakes Homeowners Association (HOA), forged an agreement between the HOA and the Sanford Police Department where the HOA hired and paid Sanford Police in exchange for their patrolling the Retreat at Twin Lakes community and enforcing HOA Board polices upon community residents.” ]]
      .
      [[ “Contained in the 183page discovery document is copy of the June 2011 Newsletter of the Retreat at Twin Lakes (RTL) HOA. Directly beneath the photo of Caraker (Page 162) with his property manager and fellow Board Members appears the announcement to the community which declares, “The Board will begin hiring Sanford Police Officers again in July to Patrol the community several times a month and enforce the RTL speed limit and other HOA policies.” ]]

      Interesting that Noah Caraker’s house is the one George points to in the reenactment when he reaches RVC after walking east across the T.

      http://www.scpafl.org/ParcelDetails.aspx?PID=32-19-30-5SP-0000-0240.

    • tinytruthseeker says:

      I found and read this bloggers thoughts months ago and was so excited by much of what he had to say….. however I became quickly disillusioned when he got so many verified facts wrong and started down the path of political conspiracy theories …. his belligerent responses to considerate responses to his assertions and complete unwillingness to look at the documents released by the state finally put me decidedly in the this dude is a “crackpot” column …..sorry….with so much misinformation being bandied about with this case I simply don’t have room in my brain for conspiracy theories that include the POTUS….

      • leander22 says:

        I am with you tiny, it may well be part of the larger puzzle. But yes, I had problems with the article too, especially concerning the target, Noah Caraker, many assumptions not much valid evidence.

        I hope I already remarked yesterday, bravo, bravissimo to the Prof. concerning his actions against the smearing artist. I am very, very pleased.

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