Featuring: Piranha Mom’s New Theory About Defendant’s Motive for Killing Trayvon

Piranha Mom is in the house tonight with a new theory regarding the defendant’s possible motive for killing Trayvon Martin.

I find it quite intriguing and it fits well with another theory presented here that the defendant was using Neighborhood Watch as a cover for a burglary ring.

This is her comment:

For the Open Thread (and discussion):

A Class Report on MOTIVE by PiranhaMom

Yes, I’m among the very few who don’t think that Zimmerman set out on that rainy night in the interest of killing a Black youth out of racist hate, or perversion, or for “the thrill of the kill.” Or to make himself respected, glorified, or an ally of Sanford P.D.
I believe he set out that night because he was sub-employed, in debt, with no possibility of becoming a cop, and no career in sight.
Frankly, I think he set out FOR PROFIT.
He hoped this would lead to a future as “an executive.”

Sadly – especially for young Trayvon Martin – Zimmerman turned out to be not an executive, but an executioner.

I believe he had a scheme – and after a year’s finagling, he had all his connections lined up.
If there was a conspiracy among Zimmerman, Taaffe, and Osterman – who may, or may not still have a job as Air Marshal – I believe it was to set up a business venture – a “professional patrol” company for condo HOAs, with Retreat at Twin Lakes as the first, prototype client. They probably had no clue that security work pays little, and did not care, because they could be “The Three Honchos” after a few short months, then hire out the patrol work to others. Preferably, cops – with SPD and Chief Bill Lee’s blessiing.

“Today, Twin Lakes – tomorrow, the world” would be their slogan.

Here we have Zimmerman, underemployed (and with an unemployed wife); Taaffe at loose ends and facing foreclosure, and Osterman working less than full time as an Air Marshal due to flight rules. They could wing it at Retreat at Twin Lakes as the workforce until they lined up a few more condo HOAs, then they’d be rolling in the big bucks. Los Honchos would become “the executives.”

Cops in Sanford are on the low end of the pay scale nationally and many would be glad to get some easy overtime, even if it was less that “cop rate”. How much do Sanford officers make? $35,720 per year, to a max of $49,445 plus an added bonus for higher education that tops out at $3,060 for BOTH City and State educational credits – even with a Master’s Degree.

That’s not a lot of bucks for putting your life on the line and struggling with the family disruption of shift work. If you could get $20+ an hour for ten or twelve hours a week cruising condos, it could help meet your credit card payments (just ask George Zimmerman).

Sanford PD has a comprehensive policy covering “Off-Duty” and “Extra-Duty” employment, and even has a special Coordinator for it. It appears to be competitive among the officers. Both “Off/Extra-Duty” work cannot exceed 44 hours per month; “Extra-Duty” employment carries the responsibility of use of full police powers and can utilize departmental equipment.

An example of “Off-Duty” would be retail not related to police work (say, yacht sales) while “Extra-Duty” is literally having one of SPD’s uniformed finest as your own – say, crowd & traffic control during motion picture filming “on location.” Employers of “Off-Duty” personnel are only responsible for Workers Compensation (plus wages) and not the wide array of employee benefits provided by the city. You could have a patrol officer work security – but not in Sanford PD uniform – as Off-Duty employment, at a much lower cost. Note: neither “Off-Duty” or “Extra-Duty” employment can be investigative.

(Sanford PD graciously provided a copy of Policy P/P 01-46 within hours of my Public Records Act request. The policy was amended April 2 of last year, but has been in force for seven years.)

“Build a better mousetrap” has always been the way to success in America – “find a need and fill it.” During the previous year Zimmerman appears to have laid the groundwork by not “finding” a need, but by creating one: he developed a “high crime profile” for his own condo development by calling in multiple complaints about Black suspects (most so wily, they slipped away).

The fact that the “suspects” kept on being Black was not, in my opinion, because Zimmerman was a rabid racist, but because he could figure that was his best “sell” in a community like Sanford, FL and with those in local law enforcement that served it.

Bigotry, yes, but bigotry out of convenience, bigotry for bucks.

That is vile.

It’s not that Zimmerman hated Blacks, it’s that Zimmerman could simply consider them the most “credible” threat he could gin up to raise the locals’ fears: blame it on the Black “criminal element.”

This is known as “Profiling for Profit.” Profiling Blacks, that is.

During the same year, Zimmerman was busy sucking up to the Chief Bill Lee and other Sanford PD brass – and individual officers. Why were so many cops who were immediately on the scene after Trayvon Martin’s murder already acquainted with Zimmerman? Had any of those patrol officers been approached yet by Zimmerman to become part of some future money-making venture?

Also during the year, Zimmerman was establishing his bona fides with both Sanford PD and his own HOA. Got himself appointed as Neighborhood Watch coordinator – but never coordinated ANYthing.

Nosed around the neighborhood, clipboard in hand, establishing himself as the local protector of his neighbors – and adding an edge to their fear.

Then there was the Home Owners Association Board – who eventually (December 10, 2012) got an agreement approved by the City Commission for Sanford PD to patrol its three private streets as if they were city streets (i.e. at no charge), and enforce its 15 MPH speed limits.

Now, this service, by State law, was ALWAYS available to the HOA (Sanford PD provides it to 14 other HOA developments) but the HOA Management company only requested it August 20, 2012 (I have Kent Taylor’s e-mail to Sergeant Smith). The tragedy in all this is that the HOA did not request police patrolling of its roads BEFORE “the renegade patroller” profiled Trayvon Martin – and ended up killing him.

Up to February 26 last year, Zimmerman was doing his best to get in thick with the HOA Board as its protector … I believe,for his future business interests.

How? Why, be the local crime prevention hero. “The Captain.”

But, of course, he’d need a trophy.

Preferably young, on foot, alone, and easy to intimidate.

And very, very preferably, Black. That would be the catalyst to getting the contract.

The kid wouldn’t even have to be DOing anything criminal – it would be Righteous George’s word against “the kid’s,” and let’s face it, all YBM’s have criminal records, right?

The plan was a slam dunk – all he needed was a “suspect” to apprehend, and detain until the cops got there.

All he needed was to be tipped off when there was a “suspect” in the neighborhood.

And then one dark and rainy night, did friend Osterman stop at the ATM to pick up cash – cash he intended to drop off at Zimmerman’s house to help his young friend through a rough patch?

And was that the same dark and rainy night that young Trayvon Martin had hiked all the way to the 7-11 and back, just to pick up an Arizona iced tea and a bag of Skittles, and was trudging home, tired but happy, talking on the phone to his girlfriend?

Did Osterman spot Trayvon Martin on the pathway of The Retreat — and tip off Zimmerman?

Was George Zimmerman packing heat?
We know this answer: “Yes.”

Did Zimmerman trail Martin in his vehicle and call 311? We know this answer: “Yes.”

Did Zimmerman exit the vehicle in pursuit?
We know this answer in Zimmerman’s own words, “Yeah.”

Did Zimmerman engage in a verbal and physical confrontation with Trayvon Martin?
Physical evidence and witnesses tell us: “Yes.”

Did Zimmerman shoot Trayvon Martin?
His first words to the cops: “I shot him.”
Re-enacted, recorded, videotaped and signed under penalty of perjury by George Zimmerman.

Was Zimmerman whisked away to private “protective custody” by buddy Mark Osterman as soon as the cops turned him loose after the killing, and was Osterman Zimmerman’s “shadow” throughout the re-enactment? We know the answer: “Yes.”

Did Zimmerman and his family set up a website FOR PROFIT even before he was charged with Murder Two, and did he PROFIT by over $230,000 after this killing?

Do these folks have PROFIT on their minds? $230,000 says, “Yes!”

Have you ANY doubt that THE PROFIT MOTIVE ended up setting this whole, horrible killing in motion – that dark and rainy night of February 26, 2012?

What could go wrong with this scheme?
And if it did? Hey, wouldn’t George Zimmerman’s word count for more than some Black kid’s – especially if that Black kid was dead?

Who you gonna believe – the guy who can tell his side of the story (in this case, ALL sides of his story, all the “variations on a theme by Zimmerman”) — or the kid who can’t tell you ANY side at all?

Remember, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Ah, yes.

On the road … to PROFIT.

221 Responses to Featuring: Piranha Mom’s New Theory About Defendant’s Motive for Killing Trayvon

  1. GlennTX says:

    I’m just getting around to this site, sorry for being late. There is audio evidence on GZ’s non-emergency call and I do believe that is Osterman on the M&I bank ATM video. Osterman and GZ are best buddies, and with his NW gig that was perfect set-up for them to play cop together. Also Osterman’s dad wrote two novels on vigilante justice “Justifiable Homicide” and “Happiness is a Green Light”. So Osterman has a connection to vigilante justice, then we believe he is on the ATM video and his name is yelled out on Jenna’s 911 call at the 1:43 mark, a male voice yells out “Mark” with no overlapping audio. Honestly everything needed to blow this case open is on Jenna’s call. Jeremy confesses that he communicated with the shooter “he warned me he’d shoot him”. TM yells out “I’m begging you, get off” which is confirmed by Dr. Alan Reich, and we believe the male voice on Jenna’s call that is crying and whispering “he’s dead” 5 times and “why kill’em” 2 times is Mark Osterman. This was not self-defense, GZ had Mark Osterman and Jeremy helping him. They ran in before the gunshot. Osterman realized because he is a cop that he has to get the heck out of there once TM starts yelling and begging, and runs into Jenna’s house I believe with the 1st door slam, Jeremy comes in with the 2nd door slam about 25 seconds into the call, because after that point he doesn’t shut up talking in the background.

  2. blushedbrown says:


    check email pleaseeeeee

  3. Malisha says:

    About whether to “be angry at them or feel sorry for them,” it is not impossible to do both. Just don’t try chewing gum at the same time. 😛

    • Xena says:

      I know. It can be emotionally exhausting however —tend to think that people can change if they want to and learn to love themselves so they can love others as themselves. Ya know, that Age of Aquarius thing.

  4. Off-topic, sorry, everyone. This comment is directed at the cyber-stalker who developed the site fredleathermanlies.com:

    Hey, Fuck Nuts:

    If you had even a single synapse in your whole stupid head you’d realize that I have published everything possible about my own legal case at my own site, froggravy.wordpress.com, and at several other larger sites on the internet. So, there’s your memo for the day.

    You got an issue with me, you bring it to me, and you leave my husband out of it.

    Get all your third-grade doxing done before you check into that mental hospital that you really, desperately need.

    • blushedbrown says:

      OK Crane! I really really like you!
      Get em!
      They better leave our professor alone if they know what’s good for them!

    • Two sides to a story says:

      You tell him, Crane!

      • @Crane:
        I have already given that fake ass individual who is using the great Professor’s name a piece of my mind, or what’s left of it on HP! LOL! We have now resorted to taunting that individual and accusing him of having a “man crush” on the Professor. Getting angry does not work. That just fuels him, so we taunt his posts, tell him how silly he is etc,. You get the picture.

    • I am pleased to report that wordpress has suspended the objectionable website.

      I will be posting an article this evening explaining what transpired.


    • cielo62 says:


      Sent from my iPod

      • Fred has a new post about this coming shortly, thanks for the comments, you and everyone.

      • sdunn5 says:

        I was responding to cielo62 and their “sent from ipod”.

        • cielo62 says:

          sdunn5~ it’s the professor’s blog. If he wants to answer you, that’s his right. He was nicer than I was.

            PS sent from my Dell Computer


      • sdunn5 says:

        cielo62 consider this a blanket response to your outraged comments regarding my posts. You suggest I am stupid…you are wrong. You assume I need reading comprehension for 5th graders, I do not. My confusion over ipod is this…had it said iphone or ipad I would think these a natural way to access the internet and post. Forgive my lack of enthusiasm for ipod technology. As for crossing the line and literally drawing one maybe you would be better served by your ipod by listening to nice music. one last thing cielo62……
        sent from my who gives a crap what cielo62 says computer

        • Why the need for insults?

          • sdunn5 says:

            I believe cielo62 started those insults calling me stupid and suggesting I had no reading comprehension skills. What’s it to you?

          • What’s it to me?

            A little respect goes a long way.

          • cielo62 says:

            sdunn5~ actually the tiff began when you called me confused because I used an ipod to respond to the blog. In fact, each of your responses have been rude to me. Your response to mountainmanpat is rude. Your attack on pirhanamom was rude. Your snide remark to ther Professor was rude.Maybe you don’t realize how you are coming across?


          • cielo62 says:

            mountainmanpat~ “Can’t we all just get along?” (Blessed are the peacemakers)


          • blushedbrown says:

        • cielo62 says:

          sdunn5~ LOL! Well OBVIOUSLY you give a crap what I say, or you would not have responded! Let’s just say every comment you’ve made to me has been snarky and disrespectful. ON TOP OF obviously not understanding the difference between an “explanation”  and a “justification”. Honestly, that does show a lack of comprehension. Maybe getting into the 21st century would benefit you. Find an elementary student to explain to you how an ipod can use the internet just like an iphone, netbook, laptop or ipad. All the same technology. I use each of those every day with 7 and 8 year olds. Had you not been so belligerent with me, I would have explained it. I expect children to NOT know many things. I DO expect adults to be aware of their world and have an adult comprehension of a well written article. The fact that not one person agreed with you shows where the confusion lies.   The bottom line is the murder of Trayvon Martin by G. Zimmerman. The prosecution will do what they will do. WE are not legal experts (with the exception of the Professor), but people interested in following, dissecting and understanding this case. ANYBODY can bring forth a theory. I don’t because many others are more knowledgable than I. But I won’t permit a staunch supporter of justice like pirhanamom to be slandered as a Pro-Z enabler when CLEARLY she is not.       sent from my high technological mountain via the 21st century. Join us up here!


          • Sdunn:

            I quote you from an earlier post of yours.

            “If you believe my reply to the lengthy article was out of line then I will stop posting responses here.”

            Seems your also not a person of their word.

          • cielo62 says:

            mountainmanpat~ as my brother would say  “ZING!”


          • Cielo:

            With my stamp dealing, I deal with people the world over….many different cultures, races & faiths…….We get along because we discuss what we have in common, other than our differences.

            We can all get along if we were all to do that 🙂

          • cielo62 says:

            mountainmanpat~ thank you. I got the message. I will be more careful. 🙂   Send my love to your mountainside.


    • Jun says:

      It apparently is deleted off of wordpress. He/she still runs still self defense not guilty.

    • Xena says:

      @Crane-Station. There are times when discovering how malicious and vicious people are, that I don’t know whether to be angry at them, or feel sorry for them. I am glad that the Professor handled it, and word press did the right thing.

      • Thanks, Xena. Over the line, this was.

        • Xena says:

          @Crane-Station. I just checked and the stillselfdefense…. blog was deleted. The other blog was archived for violating terms of service. So it’s a done deal.

          • Well I am very happy to hear this. I guess what struck me was the primitive doxing (some of my personal story is already published in print, for God’s sake)…it tells me that this is someone who is not sophisticated, very angry, and possibly capable of taking other steps.

            This is why we decided to file a report with police as well.

          • Xena says:


            it tells me that this is someone who is not sophisticated, very angry, and possibly capable of taking other steps.

            This is why we decided to file a report with police as well.

            Based on what I read, he takes a bit of truth and then surrounds it with malicious lies. That is what makes it cyberbullying and cyberharassing, as well as defamation. This morning just after I commented about his tweets, he took his Twitter page down. Evidently, he watches this blog like a hawk and knows that he’s in trouble.

            I wonder if he will take the Blogger site down before complaints are submitted?

          • Well, I am not sure what he’ll do, but I have checked Kentucky’s statutes on cyberstalking, and there is legislation in our state that places this person outside the law.

            So, this person may want to consider that pretty much every word we catch from now on, will be turned over to the police for the file.

  5. Just visited a certain Caterpillar 🙂

    This is really going beyond soap opera’s and reality shows !!!!!!!

    fogen A RENTER is made captain of the NHW?

    A RENTER that WASN’T paying their rent?

    shelLIE in “nursing school?
    Yeah layin in bed with a box of Bob Bon’s and the laptop on her belly doing her “nursing class’s”

    In the meantime fogen is failing in every class in criminal justice.
    And lied to the cop the first night that he had an AA?

    Whether or not fogen actually had a CCW?

    The lying to the court about their assets?

    Then we have the Daddy who served with the DA…..the DA even making Zim Sr. the godfather of his child?

    His brother on the talk show circuits?

    fogens lawsuits both for and against?

    Ostermans already published book about the case?

    There’s so much more that could be added to this list.

    To me no one would believe such a thing could happen…To unbelievable that it wouldn’t even be accepted as a movie script..yet here it is !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I don’t believe that fogen will not be convicted.

    Or is that the idea? To make it so unbelievable that the jury confused by the unbelievable story that they’ll acquit?

    • blushedbrown says:


      WOW, after listing it like that, would one believe that this is all real life. I wonder who will be the first to write a book including all of this from a fair and unbiased view.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Yep, amazing but true, mountainmanpat!

      And then you also have three people immediately coming forward who want to clue the police in on just what type of person gz is:

      1. Co-worker at CarMax
      2. His cousin
      3. Security company that fired him and called him, I think, a Dr. Jekyll/ Mr. Hyde

      How are you doing up there, mountainmanpat?

      • Doin just fine YAHTC……..Snow is starting to melt away…..good thing some goes before we get more………Bears are in bed so no breakin’s…….Life is good 🙂

        So how U been?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Doing great, thanks!

        You must sleep well knowing that the bears are all snug in their beds. 🙂

        • Yeah….nice sleepin’ without a pistol on the nightstand in case one wanted to come in for a midnight snack 😐

          No more mining though with the snow and frozen ground. 😦

          Been workin’ on a lot of stamps though 🙂

        • YAHTC….You know….maybe I should let the blog know…

          I am a member of the NRA.

          I support the 2nd amendment……..although I don’t believe high capacity magazine’s are necessary, or sporting.

          There are a few centerfire firearms in the house………There are more muzzle loaders though…….load one shot at a time…..I participate in Mountain Man rendezvous’ Re-creationists.

          I build my own muzzle loading longarms.

          I have property I can legally shoot on.

          Maybe some would call me a “gun enthusiast”?

          Whatever the case…..fogen is guilty of murder for the life he took.

          He, his deeds & actions prove that he is nothing more than a waster of oxygen.

          I do very much enjoy this blog, as on other vines there were the fogen supporters that did nothing but make me sick.

          Keep up the work……If Ms. Corey’s office doesn’t have someone reading these blogs….it might be suggested to them as it may open their eyes to other aspects and idea’s?

          BTW…YAHTC..NO one has shown up on my property to piss their name in the snow as was threatened on another vine……Seems the only balls these zimbots have it behind a keyboard.

          • cielo62 says:

            Moutainmanpat- I read your revelation that you are a member of the NRA and I was getting ready to hate you. But I can’t cuz I respect your opinion. In all honesty, I’m not opposed to private gun ownership. I take exception to the lack of restrictions on who can own and how they are sold. Huge magazines are also not necessary unless you plan to go to war. But our country is so polarized, so either/or that its impossible to have a middle moderate stance. Thanks for mentioning it.

            Sent from my iPod

          • NP Cielo:)

            Again understand that I live in a county of 550 sq mi. with a population of 22k

            How long do you think it would take for 911 to respond to a call from me?…..Being as I live 7 miles up a dirt county road before I get to blacktop?

            As I’ve said before Colorado is an “open carry” state.

            One thing I do find disturbing in their rules?

            You CAN NOT shot a Bear in defense of your pet.

            You can kill a Bear in defense of your live stock !!!!!!
            Money over love?

          • cielo62 says:

            There’s a law ripe for changing! Nobody is going to harm my furry kids!

            Sent from my iPod

          • BTW I am also a member of Bells fort free trappers…
            The link….


          • cielo62 says:

            Mountain manat- neat! I have never heard of that organization. The Fur Trade lasted only 10 years? I imagined it was longer but then maybe I’m thinking in the North East. I’m too much a modern liberal to like fur trapping, since we have materials where we don’t need to trap anymore. But I love history and the way people learned to survive. Do you look like Grizzly Adams? 🙂

            Sent from my iPod

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I only worry about vigilantes and crazed gun nuts, mountainmanpat, as you know. Did you see this Alex guy on Piers Morgan?

        • Yeah I did…..Alex Jones may be a little out there……his FEMA coffins and such…..Yet a lot of what he says about the direction of this government is dead on. IMHOO

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        He really goes nuts—

        • So who is fogen going to call for character witness’s?

          The police chief that was fired?

          Osterman who has already thrown him under the bus?


          The only ones i believe will stick up for him is his family & MOM.

          Once he realizes ( if he does) that he is actually a persona non grata…….he’s gonna have lead for a last meal. IMHO.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Glad your snow is still unyellowed, mountainmanpat. 🙂

        • No probs…..my dogs would have made short work of him anyway 🙂

          And as I told him…..one shot as a warning so you can piss your pants…..continue to advance?……figure it out for yourself.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        gz should be used by the NRA to point out how people hide behind a self defense claim when all evidence points to 2nd degree murder.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Yeah, that guy’s claim to piss in your snow was empty.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        It’s been good to have this chat and catch up with you, mountainmanpat. Take care!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


    • Xena says:

      Looks like GZ sent his security on investigations trying to find dirt on Trayvon, and coming up empty, he now doesn’t want to pay them.

    • esentrick says:

      MOM is a cold piece of work. Also, I thought the defendant did not get paid from Faux News? They made a partial payment for his security that is a form of payment IMHO.

      Professor – Could MOM get away with this legally? It seems MOM tried to avoid responsibility. I would think this lawsuit damaged his professional reputation in the matter that no professional would perform services based on his “honorable” word.

  6. So fogens not paying rent because the house was in foreclosure?

    Any word if the homeowner or the bank for that matter will sue him for the unpaid rents?

    The more that comes out shows even more what a real deadbeats he and his bride are / were……

    Now go make your 2 cent donation to his defense fund 🙂

    • truthseeker66 says:

      I did not find anything. The HA have some nerve selecting this deadbeat to represent them. What standards were they using/??????

  7. SupremeVictory says:

    Like I’ve always said, GZ made a killing off a killing.

    Good stuff P.Mom

  8. whonoze says:


    I have a legal procedure question for you. willisnewton posted this comment to the bcclist diaspora:


    “Regarding the possible prosecution strategy of not introducing GZ’s statements to SPD at all until the defense brings them in: I am not a lawyer but it does seem to make a certain amount of sense to me.

    “By presenting the case for Murder 2 as the following, the prosecution forces GZ to either take the stand in his own defense or at the least to bring in his (inconsistent, provably false) statements as so called exhibits or evidence for the defense. At that time, (the prosecution presents its’ case first) the prosecution can call these statements to SPD into question by bringing the investigators in to testify as rebuttal witness, I think. Or, if GZ takes the stand himself and tells the same basic story, the prosecution can cross-examine him directly.

    “Either way the case for M2 is presented much as the special prosecutor has outlined: A dead child was found next to the man who admitted he shot him, and the bullet inside the youth matches the gun in the shooter’s possession. Witnesses saw a foot chase, and the NEN call recording shows the teen was profiled and pursued. Forensic evidence shows he was shot by a man who has no serious injuries, and whom witness on the scene heard admit he killed the teen. The mother of the dead, unarmed teen will testify that the voice heard on the 911 call is that of her son, calling repeatedly for help. Various forensic “points” can be scored about the lack of blood or DNA on the teen’s hands, etc etc. Then, the prosecution rests its’ case, and somehow the defense must introduce reasonable doubt into this argument. How can they do so without putting GZ on the stand or introducing his statements to the SPD investigators?

    “They can introduce GZ’s dad to say that the voice is George’s, calling for help, but the idea that he is calling for help because of being attacked is hearsay (inadmissible) when the dad tells it. The defense could try to get JonW13 to relate his story that the shooter said he had to shoot, etc, but I’m not sure what else they could bring in. Perhaps ofc. Tim Smith could be compelled to testify what he was told, but I’m not sure that would stand up to cross-examination or not.

    “It seems the EMT people may not have heard GZ’s story at all. This matter is unclear at present, I’d say. And, whatever they heard is hearsay as well.

    “It’s true that most people on trial for murder do NOT take the stand, and this will be instructed to the jury that they cannot and should not be prejudiced by this fact alone, but it’s hard to say they can take it fully to heart in a high profile case like this, where most jurors will have heard some of the basic facts from the media already.”


    My question is whether the defense could introduce GZ’s statements, the re-enactment, anything the prosecution did not introduce, in the form of exhibits by calling as witnesses the LEO officials who took them. E.g. “Detective Singleton, is this the written statement you took from George Michael Zimmerman on 2/26/2012? Would you please read it in it’s entirety?” etc. If they can do this, would that allow them to effectively get GZ’s version before the jury without opening him to cross-examination by the prosecutors? i would assume the prosecution could call rebuttal witnesses to anything that was introduced by the defense in any form. Is that correct. So, just in general, IS there any way for the defense to get GZ’s story in without actually having him testify, and if so, what latitude would the prosecution have to counter anything coming through the back door in such a manner?

    • Whonoze said,

      “So, just in general, IS there any way for the defense to get GZ’s story in without actually having him testify, and if so, what latitude would the prosecution have to counter anything coming through the back door in such a manner?”

      No, the defendant’s statements to police are inadmissible hearsay unless offered by the prosecution under the Admission-by-a-party-opponent rule.

      The defense cannot introduce those statements and the jury will never hear them.

      The defendant can take the stand and testify but he cannot refer to the statements.

      • Eric says:

        What about the GZ police videos? Wouldn’t those qualify as inadmissible hearsay also?

        • Depends on which party offers the statement..

          1. Any statement by the defendant to anyone, whether oral or in writing,whether recorded or not, is inadmissible hearsay, if the statement is offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement.

          2. This means the defense is prohibited by the hearsay rule from offering any of the defendant’s statements to police or others, if the statement is being offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement. For example, the defense cannot cross examine Serino regarding any statement or portion of any statement the defendant made to him, if the statement is being offered to prove that what the defendant said is true.

          3. The prosecution, on the other hand, can introduce any statement, or portion of any statement by the defendant pursuant to the admission-by-a-party-opponent rule because the defendant is the opposing party in the case. The rule defines his statements as non-hearsay, if but only if the prosecution offers them.

          4. Recorded statements like the NEN call and videotaped statements like the police interviews and the reenactment are subject to the same two rules.

      • truthseeker66 says:

        Do u think fogen will testify?

      • Rachael says:

        But if the defendant takes the stand and testifies, can his statements be used to impeach him?

  9. “Bigotry, yes, but bigotry out of convenience, bigotry for bucks.

    All racism and bigotry is for bucks in a capitalist society.

    I’m enjoying the thought process…had to stop there to comment. If you are the victim of racism, none of it is benign. It has multiple costs and white privilege is easily quantified into bucks. Although you say thugboat was undermployed, I can guarantee a black guy with a similar background would not have found that type of employment.

    • seallison says:

      I wondered about the Thugboat being underemployed part but didn’t mention it when I replied. Underemployed – I do not think he would be qualified for much more than he had and was actually lucky to have it. But, I still don’t understand how he was able to live so well, all things considered.

    • Malisha says:

      Remember, the original racism (institutional racism at that) practiced in this country was for-profit racism. Then it was “Negroes are only good for the use you can make of them and it doesn’t matter if you deprive them of freedom because they aren’t good enough to know how to use freedom and it doesn’t matter if you break up their families because they don’t have feelings like WE do and it doesn’t matter if you kill them because they’re not fully human anyway,” and that was FOR PROFIT. Then it became, “they can’t become equal and have rights because they AREN’T equal and they shouldn’t have rights because they don’t know how to use them.” And THEN it became, “Hey, they’re taking away OUR RIGHTS!” And now, in many ways and in many places and in many semantic iterations, it has become, “They’re thugs and we have to defend ourselves from them at all times.”

      • Wishing for the day when black boys like Trayvon when victimized can just be victims and not have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they aren’t thugs! Sigh.

      • xy11xy says:

        ,blockquote>Remember, the original racism (institutional racism at that) practiced in this country was for-profit racism.

        That’s a very good point. It was about getting the most work done for the lowest cost possible : free.

        It was never that whites thought blacks inherently smelled bad, or were ugly, or were lazy, or had fewer values… Whites never really believed those things (and still do not). Those ideas became a salve for guilt.

        They knew then that if blacks – for example – smelled bad it was because they could not bathe because whites would not let them. They knew that blacks did not marry and form families because whites did not let them. Using those exact things as stereotypes to dehumanize blacks out of shame and guilt is the one of the most evil expressions of racism.

        Today, we can see how the right wing uses those same tactics. They label blacks as dependent freeloaders, as not valuing marriage and family….

        But the real truth is – as you alluded to – is that blacks were forced to be dependent as slaves because the entrepreneurial, “job-creating” whites forced them to. Blacks did not have families because families would get in the way of business for those same “job creating” whites.

  10. SearchingMind says:

    I would like to congratulate you, Patricia, for your beautiful article. I think it takes a genius to conceive, develop and present original ideas as you did here.

    But, “PROFILING FOR PROFIT”? Nein, Patricia. Das glaube ich nicht – on the following grounds.

    It is, IMO, internally incoherent to assert that:

    (a) ‘Zimmerman did NOT set out on that rainy night in the interest of killing a Black youth out of racist hate …’,

    and at the same time state

    (b) “Up to February 26 last year, Zimmerman was doing his best to get in thick with the HOA Board as its protector … I believe, for his future business interests. How? Why, be the local crime prevention hero. “The Captain.” But, of course, he’d need a trophy. Preferably young, on foot, alone, and easy to intimidate. And very, very preferably, Black. That would be the catalyst to getting the contract”.

    Both statements are mutually exclusive. The former rules out racist motive. The latter is seated on a specific race (i.e. Black) of the victim and would not be viable without that specific race. The fact that Zimmerman had extended motives (e.g. commercial/financial) for targeting Black teenagers is immaterial in determining the racist nature of his act. Indeed, the argument can be made that it is less racist to be ‘just racist’ than building a commercial enterprise on racially motivated acts. The act of killing in this case and the race of the victim are inseparable. That makes the killing racist, IMO. Trying to build a commercial enterprise on top of that, makes the killing one of the ugliest forms of racism and evil. If this is valid, then the crux of your argument fails.

    Anyways Patricia, ich bin ganz glücklich, Dich wieder zu sehen.

    • whonoze says:

      The two statements are not mutually exclusive because you are employing a different (though entirely valid) definition of ‘racism’ in discussing (b) than PiranamMom employed in (a). (a) refers to racist HATE, a racism in the heart, if you will, while (b) refers to an instrumental TACTIC that exploits the racial fears of others, a racism of callous calculation. IMHO, (b) would seem to fall into what Hannah Arendt called “the banality of evil” and is in some ways even more frightening that (a).

      • SearchingMind says:

        I understand the point you made. But I refused long ago to draw that subtle line between those different forms of racism because all forms of racism have one single nature: racism.

      • PiranhaMom says:


        If Zimmerman were solely consumed by racist hate he could have fed that monster by going out to any high school football game and picking off young Black athletes with a sniper rifle and a scope.

        Indeed, I do believe Zimmerman has a racism of “callous calculation” and I thank you for your loquence, Hannahand Zimmerman all too well. Thank you.

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @ WhoNoze –
        My computer is up to a few late-night tricks. What I tried to write was: “Hannah Arandt would understand Zimmerman all too well.” Thank you.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Whether or not Zimmerman set out that night with the intention to kill a Black teenager is what I do not know. But I am certain Zimmerman was out that rainy night looking out for “fucking coons”. And one did come by. Innocent. And unsuspecting. I think this has to be said – without equivocation or political correctness. We owe it to our conscience.

    • SearchingMind says:

      @ Whonoze
      The Whonoze I used to know (i.e the ever critical Whonoze) is back!

      @ Patricia
      I prefer Patricia to PiranhaMom. Piranhas are …. you know..

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @SearchingMind –

      Mein zuverlassiger Freund, I echo your statement, “Indeed, the argument can be made that it is less racist to be “just racist” than building a commercial enterprise on racially motivated acts. The act of killing in this case and the race of the victim are inseparable. That makes the killing racist, IMO. Trying to build a commercial enterprise on top of that, makes the killing one of the ugliest forms of racism and evil. If this is valid, then the crux of your argument fails.”

      SearchingMInd, you GOT it! That IS the crux of my argument: “Profiling for Profit.” Let me hand it to you for describing this as “one of the ugliest forms of racism and evil.” I wish I had written that!

      I believe the murder of Trayvon Martin came from both racism and greed. The racism is clear-cut – from Zimmerman’s own words, and actions. WE ALL KNOW THIS. Surely I don’t have to point it out again.

      For weeks last summer there was extensive discussion of Zimmerman’s probable mental instability/mental illness. I did not join that discussion. I’m no shrink. Frankly, I was concerned that examining his mental health might serve in some way to diminish his responsibility for the evil he had committed.

      At the same time, understanding the complexity of the human animal, I sensed there was another motive layered with the racial prejudice, and it wasn’t mental illness.

      It was greed.

      Yes, we know he was desperate for some “cop” status – but he knew this would be denied him because he couldn’t hack the academics. No way could he ever make it as Judge! That was all BS talk at his “BS Graduation.” Then we learned how desperate he was for money (I recall his weekly commission checks were coming in at double digits). Fencing stolen goods never struck me as the career move Zimmerman followed, because I heard of no data beyond the one large postal expense.

      But we saw how the biggest “success” of his life was soliciting contributions because he had killed a young, unarmed Black man. His family quickly emulated this, with no sense of shame at all.

      We saw how striving he was with the HOA and how he courted the cops during Chief Bill Lee’s regime – and how supportive and cozy some of those cops were, following the killing.

      But would such an enterprise be possible? A condo-serving security force with its own Chief Zimmerman?

      Why float this theory if it’s not possible? As it turns out, from the City of Sanford’s own documents, it’s entirely possible, with plenty of young cops willing & able.

      Eventually, after the killing of Trayvon Martin, the HOA management company and Board actually DID get a real Sanford Police patrol on their three streets – after their own vigilante was plucked from their midst.

      Ironically, they got it for free.

      There may be students of Professor Leatherman who feel that adding greed to racism diminishes the racism.

      I believe it intensifies the evil, and I stand by my theory.

      • bettykath says:

        I’ve come back to this thread b/c after thinking about it, this theory provides a possible motive for the behavior of the cops. Malisha has repeatedly pointed out the poor quality of the police work. It has bothered me that there was no compelling motive to support this. Pirhanamom’s theory provides that motive. Fogen may be just a bit player in the overall scheme with someone else calling the shots. I don’t see Fogan as being smart enough to put something of this sort together, but then, I also don’t see him as smart enough to know he isn’t smart enough. If this theory has validity, it will be the feds coming in and probably not until the state has finished with Fogen.

      • xy11xy says:

        There may be students of Professor Leatherman who feel that adding greed to racism diminishes the racism.

        I believe it intensifies the evil, and I stand by my theory.

        Greed or ambition causes the racist to act out his feelings in all sorts of creative ways. The ever-enterprising Adolph considered the efficiency of concentration camps and ovens, and all sorts of perverse ways to inflict pain on Jews and other “undesirables”. Before Adolph became Fuhrer, he was a failure.

    • Sleuth says:


      “Trying to build a commercial enterprise on top of that, makes the killing one of the ugliest forms of racism and evil”.

      And just what do you think the institution of slavery was built upon?

      Although slavery ended in 1865, the continued oppression of African Americans and people of color continue today.

      You probably have no idea how many thousands of African Americans and people of color have been killed for no other reason than the color of their skin.

  11. Mornin’ Folks

    I still have not received a refund of the 2 cents I donated to the gz defense fund via paypal last Saturday. Ya’ll might want to get on this as it appears no one is watching the donations, and make a 2 cent donation yourselves 🙂

    As to this thread? There can be a lot of speculation as to what fogen’s motives were that night.

    The thing that has me confused is why did fogen carry his wife’s gun that night? The records show that the weapon used was purchased and registered to shelLIE.

    Does anyone think it possible that fogen would have been willing to throw his wife under the bus if there were any chance of getting him off the hook had the situation of the murder been different?

    Does anyone have access to the information of when & where fogen purchased his weapon?

    Did he always pack his wife’s handgun? I find it very odd.

    “Honey I’m going to Target to do our grocery shopping…and oh by the way I’m taking your pistol tonight”

    Anyway, get on the ball and donate your 2 cents to fogens defense fund 🙂

    Ya’ll have a GREAT day.

    • whonoze says:

      I duuno. GZ obtained his concealed weapons permit under false pretenses, having lied (Shocked! Shocked!) about his record (I forget which of his several contretemps should have disallowed him: the bar fight, the domestic violence complaint…??). Maybe THE gun was always ‘his’ gun, but he had Shellie buy and register it so he wouldn’t get hung up in any kind of background check??

      • This is why I’m asking if anyone can find out where fogen purchased his gun?

        I’ve read stories where Osterman was with fogen when he purchased his gun. No mention of shelLIE.

        I’ve also read stories that both fogen and shelLIE had matching firearms?

        Are there any reports of fogen having to surrender his weapon?
        They have shelLIE’s as it was the one used to murder Trayvon.

        If fogen has not surrendered his weapon? Where is it? That means he is still armed.

        This is getting so surreal……

        “Honey lets get matching pistols…….you purchase yours on this day…..and I’ll buy mine a week later”

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Fogen’s was only restricted from getting a CCW license for the 3 years after his domestic restraining order expired, and for the 3 years after his felony diversion program (anger management) ended. Florida’s dept of agriculture will license anyone to conceal-carry after such period, provided they have no record of a felony conviction, which as far as we know Fogen did not have.

        So, as long as it’s been just 3 years since your last domestic violence restraining order expired, you can get a CCW license (SMH).

        • Fogen withdrew from the class he was to take in order for him to get the CCW……..He also got a refund of the money he paid for the class….

          So the state went ahead and issued him a CCW when he didn’t complete the requirements for a CCW?

          If such is the case then the state of Florida could also be held liable for Trayvon’s murder by way of them issuing a CCW to someone who didn’t qualify ie: not completing the required class.

      • looneydoone says:

        We don’t *know* gz had a CCW Permit. All we know is that only Officer Timothy Smith reported having seen it inside gz’s wallet.
        The inventory of gz’s personal property 02/26/2012 doesn’t include a wallet and/or CCW permit
        Smith’s copy of said permit in the discovery doc’s is illegible
        The State formally suspended Shellie’s CCW permit
        The State has not formally suspended gz’s CCW permit leading me to surmise officer Tim Smith’s lying (again), and that at no time was gz permitted to conceal carry Shellie’s handgun and/or any other.
        I believe Officer Timothy Smith’s neck deep in the initial coverup. Even a ditto machine from 60 years ago would make a more legible copy of the document Tim Smith purports to be gz’s CCW permit.

        • Quoting fogen

          “It was my gun, it wasn’t his gun, it was just the gun”

          No actually it was shelLIE’s gun

        • Xena says:

          The State formally suspended Shellie’s CCW permit

          Looneydoone, the media reporting that is what caused me to question GZ’s CCL. There was no report of it being revoked like that of ShelLIE’s.

          In discovery is a report by an investigator who checked on GZ’s CCL. It says that GZ submitted a check in the amount of $90.00 for the class. The person conducting the class did not remember GZ, and said that he destroys his records every 2 years. That reasonably conveys that since investigators are questioning whether GZ took the class, then there is a possible screw up in the State’s records.

          Now comes the interesting part. That report confirms that GZ did not have a Class G license to carry a concealed weapon. Class G is issued to those who carry in the course of their employment, such as private investigators. The investigators must have a reason for checking into that, and I suspect it’s because GZ said he carried everywhere other than work, and that would include each time that GZ called the cops to report a “suspicious” person or persons.

    • whonoze says:

      Or maybe it was going to be Shellie’s gun until she got hit in the shonzz one to many times by ejected cartridges on the target range, and Always Chivalrous George said, “OK, honey, I’ll take the Kel-Tec, and we’ll get you a Glock for your next birthday!”

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I think GZ is a whining softy, and Shelly seems very willing to protect him from pain.

      • pat deadder says:

        lol It is a relief to have humor.To ask a question; in investigative services lawsuit they say fogen was being held on numerous felony charges stemming from the death of Trayvon Martin.I probably sound a little crazy but what are all the charges.Also can I say I feel squimish when people discuss looks.Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.If they were dazzling to behold they still are what they are.

        • Xena says:

          @Pat Deadder.

          …they say fogen was being held on numerous felony charges stemming from the death of Trayvon Martin.

          I READ THAT TOO and thought hmmmm. What I don’t think is that the security company would assume that killing one person results in “numerous felony charges. O’Mara must have discussed the “numerous felong charges” with them.

          Maybe the State has advised O’Mara that they will be filing other charges, and/or the feds have advised O’Mara that their investigation is still ongoing, and O’Mara realizes that GZ is guilty.

    • Dave says:

      It’s really a nonissue. If Florida law doesn’t require the registration of handguns (and I don’t think it does) Shellie was free to sell, give or lend her gun to any Florida resident she pleased, provided the latter wasn’t legally barred from possessing a handgun.

      • non-issue yes and no. Does it make him more culpable in the murder of Trayvon? No. But it might point to an evasive move on his part because he felt he would not pass the Federal Background check. There is no Fed check for CCW but there is one to purchase a gun. ShelLIE had a clean record as far as we know but gz did not.

      • Sleuth says:


        The State of Florida does require the registration of handguns.

    • cielo62 says:

      Question for anybody- is it known if GZ even really owns a gun?

      Sent from my iPod

  12. sdunn5 says:

    Wow I am speechless!! You certainly give that pinhead a whole lot of credit but alas the story is well just another story. My question is why all this intricate planning and giving this freak and his freakshow more to nibble, cackle and type about. Talk about the gang that can’t shoot straight. Have you considered submitting your novella to my life is a lifetime movie? Since I don’t get it perhaps you can explain why if you believe Zimmerman is a murderer you would constantly come up with more conservative treehouse mindless babble? I think it is obvious who you are ok?? Just when I thought is was safe to say the truth about this pig of a human……………screwed again!

    • I do not know where you are coming from, but Piranha Mom (AKA: Patricia) has been posting here since the very beginning and she is and always has been a very strong supporter of Justice for Trayvon.

      When a new poster showed up a month or so ago seeking to use the name “Patricia,” she graciously offered to change her user name to Piranha Mom to accommodate her.

      “Constantly coming up with more conservative treehouse mindless babble,” definitely does not apply to her.

      • cielo62 says:

        Professor/ thank you for explaining our deep respect for piranha mom. Those accusations were way off base.

        Sent from my iPod

      • sdunn5 says:

        If you believe my reply to the lengthy article was out of line then I will stop posting responses here. I stand by my response in reading the theory she puts out. I find it odd and just another effort to justify George murdering this teenager. Of late this blog has become a justification for Zimmerman and I find this disturbing. I live in Hawaii my avatar is a photo of my daughter and myself. I also have a name Sheila Dunn, I have used other user names in OS getgeorge75 however I will not hide from these assholes. Last I saw on the OS they painted in a beard and mustache on my photo. Why you would encourage this is beyond me…. Patricia whatever…feel free to ban me from your blog Fred.

        • @Sheila:

          Hi Sheila. I have been a poster here for a while now, and I came here after being referred by another poster from HP blog. I came here after being unhappy with the HP blog and the constant barrage of rude and insensitive comments posted by GZ and his ilk. I have never read anyone defending the actions of GZ here or justifying his murdereing TM. If I did, I would not post here. We are here for one reason and that is to seek justice for TM and his wonderful, dignified family. As long as we are respectful to one another and fight for justice and truth for TM and his family everyone is welcome here according to the Professor. I have only seen him ban one individual since I have been here.

          Please do not be so quick to judge everyone on this blog.I also do not feel that Patricia justified in her theory what GZ did. Patricia has never done that as long as I have posted here. I don’t understand why you would think that. That is just not true at all. I read her theory, and I don’t read anywhere where she justified what GZ did at all. We all pray for the same end results and that is a prison sentence for GZ for the murder of TM. That is our only goal.

        • PiranhaMom says:


          Shiela, your passion is important to us all. We are an inquiry group, in a cyber-classroom setting. Your position has validity, as does mine and those of others. I can see no reason that both greed and racism cannot co-exist in a heinous act. There is no reason for you to agree with this. Mahalo!

          • sdunn5 says:

            I do not doubt you believe your position has validity. I think it does not…it seems to me the story for george keeps revising which makes me wonder why this blog which should be on the merits of law keeps changing to invalid points that will never see it’s way into this case. If it is about Federal charges which have not been filed (they will not be filed until after the State of Florida) I see no purpose to speculate. I do not believe george will be tried for a hate crime…I do believe he and others will be charged under RICO.

          • sdunn5 says:

            Thank you I apologize if this was felt to be a personal attack on you. I think I should have been clear. Other postings I have read aside from yours were beginning to take on the write your own version of why he murdered this teenager. So I hope you accept my apology everyone is entitled to theorize. Just because I believe it unimportant I should not speak for you. Aloha!!!!

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @SDunn –

            Sheila, thanks for the aloha, but please extend a little more spirit of aloha to ALL who keep the faith here (and I have in mind Cielo62), particularly considering that some of your posts are missing words and difficult to nuance (although “crap” is one word you could have left out).

            It does appear that nobody else, including the professor, has sensed any support for Zimmerman from those of us who have participated for months and months. Occasionally a troll attempts to wedge in, but is soon uncovered. It is true that many consider Zimmerman a “flawed” individual, but not one of us has an iota of tolerance for a lying, Narcissistic coward who would stalk and kill an unarmed kid.

            I sense you have come to conclusions about this case, and reject (and may resent) other ramifications offered by students. But there is much for all of us to learn, under The Professor’s tutelage, and further evidence to be released, and likely evidence not yet uncovered. We are not the prosecution, the judge, nor the jury. None of us can qualify as a know-it-all, especially six month before the trial when there are documents yet unreleased. We are all right now “know-a-lot, but-searching-for more.”

            Many of us hope that the prosecution reviews what we write. Even if they never get ANY new concepts or nuggets of information from us, we are a cross-section of society that they may find on the jury – young, old, rich, poor, gay, straight, vegan, carnivore, fat, thin, urban, rural, PhD, drop out, dog lover, cat lover, immigrant, native born, militant, pacifist, faith-filled, agnostic, intellectual, street-smart, jazz lover, Brahms enthusiast, surfer (yeayyy, Pipeline!), skier, bass, soprano – all colors, all creeds, many languages, many beyond our borders – but like you, we seek justice for Trayvon.

            As we struggle, so will the jury, but in hyper-compressed time. I believe that seeing us absorb and weigh the evidence now will help the prosecution perceive what’s ahead for the jury.

            And so while I ask you to extend the Spirit of Aloha to all who participate here, Sheila, I also ask you always to keep that fierce, determined Spirit of the Goddess Pele within, as you fight for justice for Trayvon.

            Just add a little flex. Mahalo.

          • cielo62 says:

            piranhamom~ you have such a beautiful way with words. 


        • I have no reason or desire to ban you. You have a right to believe and say anything you want.

          I do not understand how you reached the conclusion that she was attempting to justify what the defendant did by adding a possible profit motive to a racially motivated killing.

          I think that makes it worse, not better.

          I’m not saying you are wrong. Just asking why you reached that conclusion.

          While I am at it, I also am puzzled by this statement:

          “Of late this blog has become a justification for Zimmerman and I find this disturbing.”

          Why did you say that? What am I missing that you are seeing?

          You don’t have to answer these questions, if you do not want to.

          Just curious.

          • sdunn5 says:

            george is not that smart.To me it’s simple he does not possess the brain cells to do this i.e.looking about….the eye witness….he is an imbecile. Sorry it doesn’t fit into a covert idea he is an imbecile. I like coming here because you usually keep the far fetched ideas in check. I also want to say I miss Ed Nelson…he was funny thoughtful and wacky my kind of guy!!!!

          • You’re saying that the speculation about a possible profit motive to the murder violates the keep-it-simple-stupid rule, or KISS, and that will weaken the case against the defendant by introducing an element of uncertainty or doubt, given the prosecution’s multiple theories approach to proving murder 2.

            That’s certainly a valid concern, but I doubt the prosecution will attempt to prove something that it cannot prove.

          • sdunn5 says:

            When I see postings referring to the NW as a patrol it stumps me beyond all rationality. NW is not a law enforcement assignment. It is not a patrol. No one is “on duty”. Block Captain has a phone tree of neighbors who if they see something off in their usual daily routines…well…that is the extent. One only needs to read the NW binder Wendy Dorival gave dum dum. I have read much both bogus and real on this case. I conclude george was never going to target he had a target. I see him in 7-11 on 2-26-12 as well. Trayvon Martin’s behavior while leaving 7-11 caused this teenager to pause go back up the aisle act like he was picking something up from the floor as he looked towards his right I believe for another way out of that store. Something was making him feel hinkey it showed.

        • cielo62 says:

          sdunn5~ you must truly be going to the wrong site. There has NEVER been a comment that condones , explains, excuses or even suspends judgement on the guilt of Zimmerman and his entire filthy family. I took particular offense at your villifying pirahnamom. Maybe you need help in reading comprehension. NONE of that story was meant as a “justification.” An “explanation” of a possible motive is NOT the same as a” justification”. Your view of her story is totally wrong, and skewed view is from your end. I am not the professor, but even so, I wouldn’t ban you. BUT you really need learn to read more critically. You miss good allies that way.


    • cielo62 says:

      Sdunn5- some of tote comments were rude and incorrect. Treehouse babble? PiranhaMom? I truly think PirhanaMom is trying to come up with a reason other than pure sociopathy for what GZ did. At the end of the dat, it might just boil down to sociopathy. But why not consider other reasons? It doesn’t matter to the core case. But I agree that I would find greed and stupidity easier to understand than pure evil.

      Sent from my iPod

      • sdunn5 says:

        I think it is an effort to come up with a defense…it is not working.

        • cielo62 says:

          sdunn5~ a DEFENSE?? REALLY?? How is building a business based on RACIAL HATRED, FEAR and CONTRIVED OPPORTUNITY be seen as a DEFENSE?? Honestly, explain that! Maybe you just didn’t understand the author’s purpose. I have some 5th grade reading comprehension papers you could practice with.


      • sdunn5 says:

        Why do your comments always have you typing at the bottom…Sent from my IPOD? you seem confused.

        • It’s an automatic addition to any comment sent from an iPod.

          I’m surprised you didn’t know that.

        • cielo62 says:

          sdunn5~ now you’ve crossed the line into being stupid. It’s an automatic message sent out when you comment or email with your ipod. I am not confused. The lack of anything right now is because I am using my computer.   You DO know what an ipod is, don’t you? My second graders could teach you if you’d like.


      • SpecialladyT says:

        cielo62 lol. All I have to say is, WOW! 😉

    • jm says:


      I read PiranhaMom’s theory and not for a minute did I think she was making any excuses for GZ.

      I believe GZ is an unintelligent sociopath who may not have been motivated by EXTREME racism but knew racism existed so he profiled a young black male thinking there would not be much outcry if something were to happen to a young black male who racists have no regard for and consider threats/thugs (for example, see Conservative Treehouse).

      Maybe GZ wanted to be a “hero” as he was a failure at everything else and catching a “bad” guy would make friends and family forget his failures. Then again maybe he wanted to run a security company since that was as close to being a cop he apparently was going to get – so capturing a “bad” guy would get him publicity and give him credibility to run a security company.

      I think GZ is a cheap conman who has always wanted fame and fortune (as evident by his website thanking the masses while asking for money) but he didn’t have the brains, talent or ability to make it on his own.

      In any case when all is said and done, no matter the motivation, GZ is a despicable cold-blooded murderer.

      I enjoy your posts so I hope you don’t leave and don’t mean to “pile on.”

      Please read PiranhaMom’s theory again because maybe you misinterpreted it.

      • Malisha says:

        Thanks. Thanks all, actually.

        Piranhamom’s theory didn’t really talk to me but I didn’t regard it as an excuse for Fogen’s behavior, either. Plenty of our speculations are just that, and we are voicing them because we are all so shocked by the actual visual parameters of the case. As in:

        1. Guy kills an unarmed kid and doesn’t regret it;

        2. Community is listed as a kind of high-crime ghetto when that is absolutely untrue;

        3. Support arises for the killer that is clearly motivated by hatred of Blacks and yet everybody espousing these racist anti-Trayvon theories pretends to be non-prejudiced and pure as the driven snow (when actually they are probably just “as white” and “as cold” as driven snow, and as intelligent);

        4. Killer has a record and cops pretend he does not;

        5. Victim has no record and cops pretend he has;

        6. Police Chief and Prosecutor are already wiped out and there is massive upheaval in the community and it is perfectly obvious that this is all in reaction to the corruption and yet no official word comes down about what history of institutional racism led to the killing.

        So we get confused. It’s terribly confusing. You can’t imagine that people are so transparently hateful, dishonest and corrupt.

        That makes people wonder, “Hey, what is going on here?” and come up with possible theories.

        I don’t believe anybody on this blog supports Fogen or knowingly defends him.

  13. Jun says:

    In all fairness to Junior, his twitter handle is correct

    The truth has no agenda

    Junior has an agenda and has not spoken the truth

    Therefore, it is probably the only issue he has been honest about LMAO

    • Xena says:

      @Jun. Junior purports to being a devout Roman Catholic. Under that belief, the truth does have an agenda because the truth is the person Jesus Christ. If Junior believes his Bible, it says of Christ that he had an agenda to save mankind to give us eternal life.

      On the natural level, the truth has an agenda to know more truth.

      • Jun says:

        Perhaps a better association, is that truth has no agenda, in the definition that it has no ulterior motive except truth itself?

        Junior does not come off to me as human, let alone Christian

        I more adhere him to be a monster and a liar than the other spoken

        • Xena says:

          Perhaps a better association, is that truth has no agenda, in the definition that it has no ulterior motive except truth itself?

          That’s a good association. Junior clearly has a motive that is opposite to speaking the truth.

    • esentrick says:

      “..Those who lie, twist life so that it looks tasty to the lazy, brilliant to the ignorant, and powerful to the weak. But lies only strengthen our defects. They don’t teach anything, help anything, fix anything or cure anything. Nor do they develop one’s character, one’s mind, one’s heart or one’s soul.”
      ― José N. Harris

  14. Jun says:

    Even if that was his motive, he still specifically targeted Trayvon because he was black, and called him suspicious because he was someone who was looking black and walking around looking about which equates as walking while black…

    So I am gonna say the feds got something juicy and we can see hate crime charges against Fogenhats


    • Yeah…I don’t get the thinking behind…if you leverage everyone else’s racism against someone for your benefit, your not racist. Sorry, if you thought, I’ll create a ruse against blacks because it will scare the dickens out of people, that makes you racist…not different than Susan Smith or Charles Stuart. George Zimmerman is a racist. End of story.

      • Malisha says:

        Thats, I agree with you that all or any of these actions are racism and that, in terms of whether there was racism involved or not, the acts you list are “end of story.” They are only PART of the story, however, when it comes to the killing of Trayvon Martin. The story includes:

        1. Why was Fogen “suspicious” of Trayvon Martin? Racism.

        2. Why did Fogen believe that he could get away with making silly and non-credible allegations against Trayvon Martin and have HIS point of view respected? Racism.

        3. Why did the police not respond appropriately? Racism.

        4. Why did Lee, O’Connor, Wolfinger, Mahaney, et al. think they could make everybody forget this little incident by the use of idiotic non-credible comments including outright lies? Racism.

        5. Why did anybody expect Tracy Martin to accept the outrageous explanation that nobody should be arrested for his son’s death? Racism.

        6. Why did anybody expect that Sybrina Fulton would “take” her son’s murder “lying down”? Racism.

        7. Why did anybody scream and holler that Corey overcharged Fogen? RACISM.

      • xy11xy says:

        Yes. Because racism is ACTION, not thoughts. Nobody is aware of, or cares about your thoughts until you act them out. Someone can sit around and stare at me and think the most vile things about my race; their thoughts alone can cause me no harm (unless we’re talking mysticism, or ideas about the nervous system responding to non-local stimuli without conscious awareness); for practical purposes, we don’t care what people THINK, we only care what they say and how they act.

        • It is my belief that your thoughts inform your actions and what you say.

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @That’s_so_not racist –

            Please let me expand on my original commentary. I expect that all participants in this virtual classroom at Leatherman U believe this profiling and killing was based ON RACE.

            I firmly agree with this – you could hardly ignore the racial issue!

            What I posited is that it had an additional factor: profit.

            I believe Zimmerman hoped to burnish his reputation with the HOA by “capturing” a “criminal” that fit into all his earlier assertions about “crime” at Retreat at Twin Lakes. Those assertions were also racist in their totality.

            Zimmerman knew from his grades that he had no hope of getting a job at SPD or other law enforcement agency.

            He could, however conceive of putting together a security/guard service for condo developments, with RATL as his first client. He had associates who could join him (Osterman, Taaffe as examples.)

            Sanford PD permitted officers to work off-duty in that capacity. SPD officers are not highly paid, and getting these non-official assignments are competitively sought. I provided those background documents.

            Zimmerman had earlier burnished his relationship with Chief Bill Lee and with the responding officer who drove him from the scene of the crime to Sanford P.D.

            All of this would further his hopes & dreams of future gainful employment outside, but ancillary to, the Police Department he was hustling.

            I believe it also served Zimmerman’s interests in preventing his arrest for this murder, until the groundswell of public opinion forced the State agency to intervene and arrest him.

            A number of students (I among them) have stated that Zimmerman got a psychological kick out of “playing cop” – which Sergeant Chris Serino commented on as well.

            Others among us have commented on his ADD and ADHD and other mental/psychological burdens Zimmerman may have carried. I have not concurred with this because I cannot believe that they could, or should, cause either racial profiling or murder.

            Zimmerman had enough mental functioning to know his actions were wrong – proved by his attempts to lie his way out of his dilemma and come up with “self defense” as a cover-up.

            My “dissertation” simply added profit to Zimmerman’s motive. There is no way that detracts from the racial prejudice that he clearly exhibited by pre-judging what Trayvon was doing in the community.

            I’m simply saying it was “Racism Plus Profit.”

            In totality, it was likely “Racism Plus Narcissism Plus Unrealistic Grandiosity Plus Profit-Seeking.”

            OK by you?

      • xy11xy says:


        Wasn’t Hitler that sort of racist? He was a racist with ambition. He “leveraged” ordinary Germans’ mistrust of Jews to attain power for himself.

        It’s interesting that Serino asks Jeremy’s girlfriend if George was a “little Nazi” running around. Jeremy has a Jewish sounding surname. I wonder how pointed Serino was being with this question, given this couple’s lack of emotion about a child being murdered virtually in their back yard, and what with them possibly being Jewish.

        In that sense, Hitler outsourced the dirty business of hatred, busying himself istead with collecting art, and pursuing his other interests.

        I suppose hatred is very long, toxic and hard work; the individual racist cannot sustain it for very long, and must outsource.

  15. ladystclaire says:

    I still say they were *fencing* STOLEN goods and, shipping it out of state to maybe to one of his old back in the day THUGS when he lived in Manassas, Va. you know, like the ones who didn’t pinch his fat ass while they were *dumb* enough to serve prison time that he should have been serving also. what on earth could he have been mailing out of state that would cost $200.00 to ship? I also still believe the three stooges were the ones stealing from their neighbors. this Burgess dude was just being used as a decoy for their little venture of robberies.

    • whonoze says:

      Sorry, ladystclaire, I find your speculation too “out there” to be plausible, and I disagree with the Prof. that it fits with Pirana Mom’s thesis. Why would someone trying to ingratiate himself with his community’s HOA risk getting caught being part of a petty theft burglary ring? It would be safer, and just as productive, to create the IMPRESSION of a crime wave, rather than to create an ACTUAL crime wave. The risk/reward ratio would be foolish, and I don’t think any of these folks are fools. Deluded, bitter, paranoid maybe, but not flat out stupid. When I was in primary school, one of my classmates was from a family that ran a stolen goods ring. These folks had a very different profile from T, O, and Z.

      I see no evidence that Taaffe, Osterman or Zimmerman have any history of that sort of criminal activity. As an Air Marshall, Osterman would have had to pass certain security clearances. Again, I don’t think there is any evidence that Taaffe and Zimmerman were close before the shooting. If Taaffe, who does own his home, is concerned about falling property values, attempting to lure MORE burglaries makes no sense whatsoever. And I doubt Zimmerman’s self-image as an aggrieved champion of ‘Right’ and a Law and Order wanna-be is consistent with running a theft and fencing ring.

      I am not familiar with the details of Burgess’ arrest. Was he caught with stolen goods? Did he protest his innocense and claim he was framed? (I’m guessing ‘yes’ and ‘no’ respectively…)

      • bunny620 says:

        @whonoze I know that Shellie Zimmerman’s father was a career criminal and arrested for theft several times (correct me if I’m mistaken). She was with GZ at least once on one of GZ’s 311 calls to report a suspicious character. Although she stopped him from chasing down that “suspect”. It could have been her or her family that conspired to create the impression of the crime wave you speak of.

        I do agree with you about the fencing theory being a stretch but GZ married a woman from a family with a criminal history. She and her family may have been influential on GZ. She could have been in on the scheme to create that fear within the community. Besides we know already she’s capable of lying under oath. It is not too hard to believe she has the potential to create a false impression of criminal activity in her neighborhood. Love your work youtube page btw.

        The first link below is from another blog but details Shellie’s dad and mom rap sheets briefly. The 2nd article is about Shellie’s dad being arrested for his involvement in a crime ring.



        • As you know, I am not a fan of the defendant or his wife, and we are discussing various theories on this thread; nevertheless, I cannot stop myself from reacting negatively to theories of guilt by association and intrafamily criminal activity.

          I don’t know anything about Shellie and she may or may not have been aware of or participated in some of her father’s criminal activity. I am inclined to believe that she may have some intellectual disabilities or limitations and the defendant has treated her like a doormat.

          In other words, I feel bad for her and I hope she has what it takes and the support of family and friends to cut the defendant loose and navigate her way away from his influence and control toward a future that resolves her legal case favorably

          I think she lied about that money because he asked or expected her to so and I hope her lawyer can win her confidence and consent to use that information to negotiate a dismissal of the perjury case in exchange for her cooperation in testifying against the defendant.

          Of course, I could be wrong because I’m relying on my gut reaction.

          • jm says:

            “I am inclined to believe that she may have some intellectual disabilities or limitations….. I think she lied about that money because he asked or expected her to so….”

            I am inclined to believe both GZ and ShelLIE have intellectual disabilities but both are cons easily capable of lying. I take this from Shellie’s statements in court where she sounded pretty sure of herself, even though she was lying. I think GZ and Shellie both think they are smarter than they are and both are greedy, thus the lies about the money, hoping for the good life using other people’s money. They deserve each other. Shellie doesn’t seem like the doormat type to me but that is based in part because of her scary mug shot. J

          • Ya know for 25 ol’ shelLIE looks pretty rough.

          • jm says:

            “Ya know for 25 ol’ shelLIE looks pretty rough.”

            LOL – I wouldn’t want to cross ShelLIE. She looks rough and big enough to inflict some damage to GZ’s head and nose on 02/26/12.

          • You may be right, but keep in mind that no one looks good in a booking photo.

      • SpecialladyT says:

        Osterman was fired from the SPD, how did he pass and receive his Air Marshall position? Homeland Security?!!!! Hmmmmm

      • Two sides to a story says:

        While Piranhamom’s theory is beautifully expressed and quite interesting, I doubt Fogen would simultaneously be involved in shady dealings while studying criminology and serving as NW. Too high risk.

        But he does seem the sort who would magnify the “crime wave” in his mind and fecklessly create a situation in which he felt he had to kill an innocent person. I think the simple explanations are far more likely.

      • FactsFirst says:

        I often wonder if the anonymous caller who called SPD saying GZ had racist ideologies 2days after the shooting of Trayvon, might be Shellie… She could be a victim here… I’m with the professor on that.. Did they ever find her identity???

    • Good morning, Lady.

      The teacher in me feels compelled to point out:

      Residential burglaries, not robberies.

      Robberies consist of a theft and an assault. They are defined as taking property from another person with intent to permanently deprive them of that property (theft) by the use of force or threatened use of force (assault).

      Burglaries are defined as entering into a residence or building, or remaining in a residence or building, without the permission of the owner and doing so with the intent to commit a crime. The crime usually is a theft but it can be any crime, such as an assault, murder, rape, arson, etc.

    • roderick2012 says:

      “what on earth could he have been mailing out of state that would cost $200.00 to ship?”

      If whatever was shipped via the Post Office this becomes a federal case all over again.

      Has anyone contacted the IRS to determine definitively if GZ will owe taxes on the donated funds?

      • Malisha says:

        The murder doesn’t become federal by out-of-state shipping that occurred AFTER the murder, though. I think the murder becomes federal by virtue of the possible police participation in failing to protect residents from Fogen, and by virtue of the cover-up, and by virtue of the racist profiling issues, including most significantly Taaffe’s pointing out that Fogen was “fed up and wasn’t going to take any more” because some OTHER African Americans had allegedly (at this point in the story, there had not yet been conviction of Burgess) burglarized homes.

    • Malisha says:

      In Virginia, having a father who’s a magistrate may be a good reason to have ne’er-doer-wells sucking up to you for one thing and another. If you wanted to set someone up for a fall, you could stash something at their house, then give an anonymous tip to police, who could go to the magistrate and get a warrant for a search… see? The corruption in the courts of Virginia is right up there with Florida and Texas. Anything is possible.

    • Xena says:

      @ladystclaire. I suspect that GZ was selling stolen items on eBay. Jewelry was reported stolen in the burglaries. Unless it’s insured and photographed, it’s hard to trace when stolen.

      On April 1, 2012, the beginning balance on ShelLIE’s checking account was $1,087.71. GZ’s beginning balance was $370.45. This was before GZ opened his begging site, and GZ had not worked since 2/24/12.

    • Sleuth says:


      I agree. I find the B & E at Chris Olivier’s home very interesting as well as questionable. SPD responded to a call one morning shortly after Olivier had left for work. SPD tried contacting him by telephone several times, to no avail. He did not respond until a few hours later before returning to his home.

      From what I could gather from the call logs over at Mother Jones website, of all the thefts at RTL, Olivier seemed to have suffered the most property loss, close to $7,000. The items consisted of computers, flat screen television, cameras, electronics, etc. and expensive jewelry that most people would have kept in a safe.

      I read or saw via the media reports about Burgess, the pregnant women whose home was allegedly broken into one morning by two black male intruders who fled before SPD arrived, and the woman whose rental car was stolen.

      The stolen rental car was later found, but not one media report about the burglary incident at Olivier’s home, i. e. whether or not a suspect was caught or if the items were ever recovered. As of my last check of Seminole County’s Property Records, Olivier was still residing at RTL.

      Don’t know exactly when RTL actually started an “official and active” NW, however, according to FT, when he was NW Captain he never carried a gun. He even said he would NEVER carry a gun, maybe mace, but not a gun while on NW duty.

      According to Wendy Dorival, FT never reported any incidents when he was NW Captain. It seems as though SPD did not start receiving calls from RTL residents regarding “black male” burglars until AFTER the trigger happy THUG moved in, later murdering Trayvon. According to the call logs, he lived at four different apartment complexes before moving to RTL.

      One other thing, is it just a coincidence that FT’s son, Will Taaffe, (now deceased) was also arrested for assaulting ATF officers for which he served no time? FT, as well as both his son have arrest records for use of illegal drugs and violence. Drug addicts will do just about anything for they’re next “hit’, and are known to rob their own mothers and grandmothers.

  16. Cercando Luce says:

    Wow. It could be. And Whonoze and ladystclaire have also suggested ideas (which don’t exclude the above) that make a motive possible. Because just going out and shooting an adolescent to death for no reason is too monstrous to believe (although that could be true also).

  17. seallison says:

    Your theory makes ABSOLUTE sense. Taaffe, who is an absolute bigot and the poster boy for racism, is more than angry about property values taking a nose-dive. I can see Fogen chatting with Taaffe at HOA meetings before the plan was firmly established. Fogen wants to fit in and has a need to be a hero. Who better than Fogen to do the dirty work for the likes of Taaffe. So, Taaffe cooperates by leaving his windows and doors open. He lives at a frequently-used cut-through. His paranoia about young, black males cutting through leads me to believe doors and windows open while away is something Taaffe would not do — except to use as a lure for any criminal activity to come his way.

    It was only a matter of time. Learn to use a gun. Find out what the laws are. Make your presence known in the neighbourhood to convince residents that the neighbourhood is rife with crime.

    Patricia, I am with you 100% on this one except —-

    Where does Wolfinger, Lee, and O’Connor fit in.

  18. whonoze says:

    I think Pirana Mom’s theory may be exaggerated, but may also be going in the right direction, if a bit too far.

    First, I’m not convinced Taaffe was involved prior to the shooting. I get the impression that he and GZ were NOT good friends, that GZ considered Taaffe beneath him, and GZ only began attaching Taaffe to his tugboat once Joe Oliver disappeared and he needed a media surrogate to support him on various talkshows.

    And I’m not sure GZ and Osterman had specific plans to start a security firm. It’s possible, but GZ seems to really have imagined himself as a future judge. And I’m still thinking he wanted to be more than an ally of the SPD, but some kind of genuine LEO. A real Badge, not a rent-a-cop.

    But the idea that he was motivated by an instrumental logic of self-promotion rather than naked racism or hostility seems to fit with what we know of his character. (Especially his opportunistic racist hazing of his Middle-Easter co-worker, who thought GZ was putting on a show to get in with the other employees rather than expressing anything deep in his heart.) I think it quite plausible that by calling in as many reports as he could, he intentionally helped create the ‘problem’ of a “crime-ridden community” so he could step in and be the solution. And he expected some kind of gain in status, if not direct financial reward, as a result, which could lead indirectly to financial reward. There would be any number of ways to benefit from being the ‘hero’ who apprehended an “asshole” red-handed.

    The physical evidence of the timing and the security cam “light events” on RVC, combined with DeeDee’s acount, makes it highly likely that GZ was ‘tipped’. I initially suspected Taaffe was the tipster, then Osterman, but I now think it was neither of them. For one thing, the guy at the bank isn’t Osterman. The bank guy resembles a man seen escorting GZ upon his release after his arrest, who was initially misidentified as Osterman. I’m also now skeptical of the coincidence that would be required for Osterman to have observed Trayvon: he would have to have driven into The Retreat at exactly the right time.

    Unless DeeDee’s account is part of some incredibly complex conspiracy to frame GZ, then GZ never did see TM ‘just walking around in the rain, looking at all the houses.’ Rather Trayvon was stationary, taking shelter from the rain under the mail kiosk, before GZ even left his house. But I don’t think GZ (especially GZ buzzed enough to be unusually confused and sluured of speech) is creative enough to have made that up that description out of whole cloth. Rather, I think that is what someone told him: “Hey George, there’s a strange black kid walking around in the rain, looking at the houses… and now he’s loitering by the clubhouse…”

    The only candidate I have in mind for the ‘tipster’ at this point (and I freely admit there’s no real substantive evidence for this speculation) is Cynthia Wibker. She’s an official of the HOA, so following the general direction of Pirana Mom’s theory, GZ would be especially eager to respond to her call. She lives across the street from the clubhouse, so she could have seen TM walking down RVC and stopping by the clubhouse. And, not to be sexist about it, but it strikes me that a woman would be more likely to call someone about a suspicious character rather than go investigate herself.

    If anyone called GZ shortly before he left his house that evening, I assume the State would have identified that person from the phone records they have which have not been released to the public. One would think that any such person would be on the State’s witness list. Of course, Wibker already is, due to her role in the HOA’s dealings with Zimmerman…

    • seallison says:

      Osterman and Taaffe are also on that list. Time will tell how close PiranhaMoms theory pans out. There seem to be more bombshells yet to come. I still believe the 3 Amigos worked in concert for awhile.

    • amsterdam1234 says:

      I am with you Whonoze about almost every point you made. Don’t know about Wibker, but I agree it was probably somebody other than Taaffe or Osterman who tipped GZ. Probably someone who lives on the complex and knew GZ had promoted himself as the go to guy for NW issues, and knew how to reach him.

  19. Fogen was not paying rent. Guess that makes him a squatter.

    • truthseeker66 says:

      Why was he not paying rent?

      • SpecialladyT says:

        I believe his parents were paying the rent.

      • Dave says:

        His excuse was that the house was in foreclosure.

      • The bank was seeking forfeiture of the house because the owner/landlord had fallen behind in his mortgage payments.

        Apparently, the defendant’s refusal to pay rent caused the landlord/owner to fall behind in the mortgage payments.

        After the bank filed a legal action to forfeit the house, the defendant claimed he no longer had any obligation to pay rent to the owner/landlord because the money should go to the bank.

        Of course, he never paid the bank either and his obligation to pay the ownner/landlord did not cease as long as he continued to live there and the house had not yet been forfeited to the bank.

        If true, it’s yet another scam by this defendant whom his brother insists is “a decent American” who never lies.

      • Because he didn’t have a job and neither did Shellie. They were professional students living off of the Pell Grants and filing law suits! What a lazy good for nothing who had his father paying his rent! SMH. He should be glad he does not have my father because he would not get his rent paid! My parents would not have it! What’s up with that arrangement anyway? Why get married if you cannot support your household and thank the lord that they did not have any children to warp their mind and possibly abuse!

        • Xena says:

          @Deborah Moore.

          Because he didn’t have a job and neither did Shellie.

          GZ was employed. It appears that it was the first job he held onto for over 3 mths. ShelLIE was the “stay at home student” although it appears that she had not attended school since 2010. From the donations GZ received in April 2012, ShelLIE did make a small payment to an online school.

  20. Esentrik says:

    Wow…. definitely food for thought.

  21. Xena says:

    I can see this theory. Another blogger has a theory that the previous HOA president wanted to harass the Black residents into moving out with hope that the property values would increase.

    Taaffe also had/has a problem with “renters” and he contacted Dovial before the first NW meeting in Sept. 2011. I can’t help but think that Taaffe is the person who spurred on GZ’s motivation to profile Blacks in that community.

    • cielo62 says:

      Xena- dint you find it ironic that GZ was also a renter?

      Sent from my iPod

      • Xena says:

        Xena- dint you find it ironic that GZ was also a renter?

        Right, Cieolo62. That would mean that he was included in Taaffe’s profile for renters. Dovial asked GZ if the HOA had rules or guidelines for owners who rented, such as conducting background checks. GZ did not get back to her with that info. Maybe he was too ashamed to admit that he rented.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Or, as a renter, have a background check done on gz himself.

        • Xena says:

          Some of the independent work I used to do was for landlords. It takes only a few minutes to check public court records for arrests, evictions, bankruptcies, and sexual offenders. The problem with many landlords is that once they see the security deposit and first month’s rent, they grab it without concern for whether the tenant will continue to pay rent and pay on time.

      • Sarah Lynnid says:

        Every landlord is concerned with the tenants ability to continue to pay. Property owners typically have a longterm financial obligation themselves and are not that short sighted to allow a stranger to put them in financial peril. Eviction is a time consuming and a financial loss for landlords.

    • SpecialladyT says:

      It is beyond me why the HOA would allow a “renter” to become a NW, let alone the CAPTAIN of NW.

      • Xena says:

        It is beyond me why the HOA would allow a “renter” to become a NW, let alone the CAPTAIN of NW.

        I don’t think they were really interested in his status. They just didn’t want to get involved themselves.

      • Malisha says:

        They didn’t even really have a problem calling for NW — Fogen started that up on his own because HE wanted it; it was his hobby. He ran around with a clipboard and a complaint was turned in to the police in September 2011 saying the guy came around with his clipboard irritating people and would not provide i.d. Would you start giving some guy info just because he claimed to be NW? There wasn’t even an NW set up when he did that, and certainly no general call for one. It seems to me that Wibker and Fogen and maybe a few others (out of 260 residents!) thought it was a good idea and not even the other crime victims listed were particularly interested. Fogen reached the point Taaffe called “fed up and he wasn’t going to take any more” without anybody else even getting their feathers ruffled except by his behavior.

      • Sarah Lynnid says:

        A renter is still a resident and those involved with NW programs are volunteers and volunteers are hard to come by. I am sure they were willing and accepting of anyone willing to be involved.

    • tinytruthseeker says:

      Which is sorta funny seeing as Fogen was a renter there!!!!

  22. Malisha says:

    I envision a “choose your ending” book with many, many theories of the crime and a way to follow each through. Oh well, it should be called “choose your middle” instead. Ending will be chosen by a combination of factors not able to be foreseen or speculated about quite yet, but we can say for sure it will not be the ending Fogen wanted when he set out to make his personal fiction out of Trayvon Martin’s fact.

    • @Patricia:
      Very good theory Patricia. Anything is possible when it comes to GZ and his partners in crime whoever they may be. However, I believe that FT is involved and that GZ had been drinking that night. His speech is slurred. I also believe that Whonoze made some very good points as well. Someone in that complex tipped off GZ and it is concealed in the cell phone cell records. I expect several bombshells to come out come June. It is going to be very interesting.

  23. Rachael says:

    Makes a lot of sense.

  24. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< hmmm… Working both sides of the street? Set up a petty crime ring for stuff to fence via eBay. Set up a reputation for neighborhood safety for a starter security company. Wow. I didn't think GZ has that much imagination, but then again it does use his two criminal passions; corrupt cops and gang street thievery. This one FOR SURE can be a made-for-prime time movie! Superb insight.

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