Open Thread Saturday, January 5, 2013

Welcome to the open thread for today.

I have a new poet up: Ancient Egypt Comes to Life

As I explained in the introduction to that post:

Okay, time for some culture. As you all may have guessed, I am interested in many subjects besides law. One of those subjects is Ancient Egypt. I came across a story about Ancient Egypyt while I was perusing the news this morning and I got sucked in. The result is this article.

False confessions must wait another day.

Please use this thread for continuing discussion about the case and other matters unrelated to ancient Egypt.

110 Responses to Open Thread Saturday, January 5, 2013

  1. colin black says:

    Seallison
    I must emphasize: If Fogen HAD come across a THUG, would this dismiss the Murder 2 charge. Fogen did not know Trayvons history when he shot. Even if Trayvon WAS a THUG, Fogen had no business involving himself with Trayvon who was doing nothing wrong – thug or no thug.

    People focusing on Trayvons character are missing the point. If someone is doing what they want to be doing, and Trayvon had EVERY right to be doing what he was doing, he had every right to be where he was, and he had EVERY right to be free of harassment from anyone. Fogen was WAY over the line right after he reported the sighting to the point of no return.

    If anyone is granted unspoken permission to shoot who they have on their own decided to be thugs, is vigilantism legal. Of course not. What is a police force for. Do you want a neighbour named Fogen shooting and killing your teenager because your son smoked marijuana

    Thats called fair logical common sense.

    Its just clutching at straws useing a strawman debate
    Or building a house made of feathers on an Island in Hurricane Alley

    If Trayvon had in theory been a gangbanging habitual housebreaking thug from Pork an Beanz Project in Miami.
    It would in theory support the acussed version of events.
    How ever he would still be lieing an Trayvon though a troubled youth would stilll have been a geust at the Gated Comunity
    Staying with his Father for a few days
    He would still have just been returning from the seven eleven wether he smoked a cigar or joint or whatever.
    Stealing Telivisions isnt a capital offence.
    Neither is burglary of an unocupied dwelling.
    The accused was hopeing that Trayvon was just a throw away
    As thats how he perceived him dissposable
    Oh phuck Ive fucked up this asshole is screaming people are looking the law is on its way
    Im on my way to jail ive had enough of this .
    BANG

    Now a desprate search gotta be drugs a knife
    Freakin Skittles an a can of juice WTF am I gonna do.
    H e attacked me was killin me man phucked me up real good.

    Gotta get myself together this Kid is probably a local bad lad up to no good
    I can swing this.
    Sad part is he very neary did manage to get a pass to walk free.
    IIf it had not been for the resiliance an courage of Trayvons Family an Loved one
    An then the MASSES who took up the banner for justice
    Instead of the zimmermans version justus ….

    The sociapathic void waste of space an oxegen may have got away with MURDER…..

    Trayvons Death Shall never be in vain.
    The ACCUSED took the Lords name in vain.

    Trayvons Death was a horrible needless act of savage hate an contempt for lthe life of a fellow human

    In a Country that fought a Civil War the bloodiest War in your entire history
    For tha ablishment of Slavery an the Emancipation of all Africans brought to America as slaves an all there decendants
    Sometimes from even the most tragic circumstances good can come
    From the most dismall an gloomy vistas light an colour can bloom

    Ohe of the most beutifull storys I heard concerning the American Civil War concerned a volanteer Nurse .

    She was working in a hospital within a barraks attending to severly injured an dieing men.
    One nigh she listened as the men sang the song
    John Browns Body.
    She refected on the tune an how morbid the words to be sung by men dieing an surrounded with death
    So She sat herself down an deceided to rewrite the words an in doing so she was able to do something .
    George Zimmerman never could accomplisg
    Rewrite History
    This is the ditty she pennned

    Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
    He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
    He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
    His truth is marching on.
    Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
    Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.

    I have seen Him in the watch fires of a hundred circling camps
    They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
    I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps;
    His day is marching on.
    Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
    Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His day is marching on.

    I have read a fiery Gospel writ in burnished rows of steel;
    “As ye deal with My contemners, so with you My grace shall deal”;
    Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with His heel,
    Since God is marching on.
    Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
    Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Since God is marching on.

    He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
    He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment seat;
    Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet;
    Our God is marching on.
    Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
    Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.

    In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
    With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
    As He died to make men holy, let us live to make men free;
    [originally …let us die to make men free]
    While God is marching on.
    Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
    Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! While God is marching on.

    He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
    He is wisdom to the mighty, He is honor to the brave;
    So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of wrong His slave,
    Our God is marching on.
    Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
    Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Thanks, Colin. Reading this created chills up my spine. My father used to march around the house long ago when I was a kid and sing Battle Hymn of the Republic.

  2. colin black says:

    I never put much thought into the shell casing, because so many people were walking around the crime scene and they had to use a metal detector to find it.

    The GRS baffles me…I still don’t understand how there wasn’t more than one particle of lead on the upper back of Fogen’s right sleeve. I know that it was a close range shot and GSR from the muzzle was on Trayvon, but how come nothing from the cartridge ejection chamber got on Fogen if they were supposedly that close to each other.

    Is it because he was holding Trayvon’s shirt and that captured the emissions instead of allowing them to go farther onto Fogan’s chest or sleeve

    Chris

    Exactly the muzlle of the barrell were the bullet an gun pwder residue eminate from at least the majority.

    As the defendant had a tight fist grip on Trayvons sweatshirt /hoodie.
    PROBABLY MORE OR LESS CENTRE of the garment ,Holding on tight with his dominant strongest left hand

    Trayvon would have been pulling away.
    The accused placed the gun straight into the material theres a gap because victims pulling away
    He kinws he is going to shoot an the grain of truth in his statement is I took carefull aim to avoid shooting my hand.

    TRANSLATION

    As he prepared to shoot he has a hold of Trayvons sweatshirt /hoodie.
    He is going to be fireing point blank he knows there no danger of him accidently shooting through his own hand from point blank.

    COME ON .

    Even Mr Magoo could make that shot.But he is still scared.
    He is going to be shooting this Kid point blank with the barrel preesed upto the hoodie .He wants a kill shot straight slight left of chest bang centrw shred his heart.
    But his dammed hand is in the way off his perfect shot.Ah well needs must carefully positions the muzle bout 3 or 4 inches away from his balled up fist/hand .Remember he is terrified of hurting his hand thinking the discharge so close may cause a burn or worse
    No way did he have to aim to miss it though as his hand an fist were more or less side by side

    And as Trayvons hoodie was over the muzzle a lot of the residue bormaly expelled with the profectile were trapped within the fabric.
    It acted as a filter trapping majprity of the smoke an microscopic redidue thats ntmaly found after a weapons discharged m o o

  3. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    http://mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/12863351/article-Sanford-names-Lee-as-new-police-chief

    .
    I did not know that Chief Lee graduated from the FBI academy in 2001.
    .
    Also, in the article:

    [ “Lee served 27 years with the sheriff’s office, retiring as a captain in 2009. Lee served in all facets of the sheriff’s office and at the time of his retirement commanded the Special Operations Division. He has continued to serve as a reserve deputy sheriff.” }

  4. Chocolate Diva says:

    So how many times did he say? I know for a fact it wasn’t a full minute and the judge and jury will know that’s a lie.

    • Chocolate Diva says:

      Did the gunshot to TM chest cause the edema to his brian?

      • I do not know the answer to that question. We’ve had some nurses here say, “Yes.” I’m inclined to agree, since they know more about it than I do.

        But I think he sat on Trayvon’s back to hasten his death by positional asphyxiation. That would establish the murder 2 element of depraved mind, if true.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I think your theory is a strong possibility, Professor.

  5. Chocolate Diva says:

    Didn’t GZ say his head was bash against the cement for a full minute.

  6. colin black says:

    OT Sorry but wondering why my comments on other threads like your new one one Eygpt go into moderation?
    Another weird thing last night my comments wouldnt post at the bottom of the page.
    I would try an respond to a comment an my post would apear.
    But way back high in the texts if you know what I mean.
    Oorinstance Xena made a remark about Xena Warrior Princess an wobered if someone would post a vt thinking it was her.
    I posted the vt but it apeared about 15 comments before she had asked i y k w i meann?

    P S……..Thanks for all you do LLMPapa.

    • leander22 says:

      Colin, I was wondering that I can actually read it. So it can’t have gone into moderation, since then I could not read it. But I see the line that tells it does too. I guess others can read it too.

      I also read everything on Egypt quite early starting with my mother’s books. when I was in Berlin not long ago I of course paid a visit to Akhenaten and his wife Nefertitinow on the Museums Island in former East Berlin. Before she was in the West and he was in the East. 🙂

  7. Kelly Payne says:

    they keep picking on trayvon because he tried weed once and might have tried something called lean. he was a teenager sometimes they get curious about things and try them it doesn’t mean they are thugs or bad kids. he was a good caring kid who screwed up a couple of times my nephew tried weed he isn’t a bad kid. Why are black kids judged more harshly than white kids for doing the same thing.As if i didn’t already know.

    • Rachael says:

      I’m sure he “tried” weed more than once. Possibly smoked it frequently – however, none of that what you mentioned had anything to do with the events of that night and even if they did, not something to shoot a kid over – especially as it had nothing to do with the events of that night. I don’t care if he smoked weed every day. I don’t care of he was smoking pot while he was walking “looking suspicious.” We do not shoot people for smoking pot (or doing other drugs); it is not a capital offense.

      • William Walton says:

        I think it is irrelevent whether or not he smoked weed, did drugs, was illiterate, flunked out of high school, or whatever, The important facts to be considered in this trial are: (1) TM was profiled by GZ, (2) GZ pursued TM, (3) GZ accosted TM even though TM was not doing anything illegal, and (4) GZ shot and killed TM.

      • Rachael says:

        Exactly William, that was my point.

    • seallison says:

      I must emphasize: If Fogen HAD come across a THUG, would this dismiss the Murder 2 charge. Fogen did not know Trayvons history when he shot. Even if Trayvon WAS a THUG, Fogen had no business involving himself with Trayvon who was doing nothing wrong – thug or no thug.

      People focusing on Trayvons character are missing the point. If someone is doing what they want to be doing, and Trayvon had EVERY right to be doing what he was doing, he had every right to be where he was, and he had EVERY right to be free of harassment from anyone. Fogen was WAY over the line right after he reported the sighting to the point of no return.

      If anyone is granted unspoken permission to shoot who they have on their own decided to be thugs, is vigilantism legal. Of course not. What is a police force for. Do you want a neighbour named Fogen shooting and killing your teenager because your son smoked marijuana.

      • Rachael says:

        Exactly!! That is the point I was trying to make, but you stated it much more clearly.

        Thank you.

      • Very important point that bears repeating every time someone attempts to demonize Trayvon.

        It flat out doesn’t matter who he was. Even if he were the Devil himself, he had a right to be where he was, he was not doing anything suspicious or unlawful, and the defendant was never in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury.

    • Jun says:

      I am sure he prolly tried weed before, but lean is a stretch and is not even relevant

      and if that is the case that they want to make it it relevant, all of Fogenhats’ prescriptions come into play at trial

      so, does not really bother me

      and reasonably speaking, drinking lean does not mean you deserved to be stalked, terrorized and killed… even a crackhead or methhead does not deserve that sort of treatment, as it is inhumane

      so more pointless crap from the Tinfoil Hat Conservatives

      • Rachael says:

        None of it is relevant. Nothing in his past is/was relevant that night. Even GZ admitted he wasn’t doing anything when he called in – just “looked suspicious.”

        We do not shoot/kill people in this country because they “look suspicious.”

      • seallison says:

        Trayvon, by the way, is not on trial. A Tin Can attempt to divert attention to their groupies who are unable to understand what the agenda really is.

    • Malisha says:

      Kelly P, it’s not just that Black kids are “judged more harshly,” it’s that they are BLAMED for everything. White kid killed? Catastrophe! Black kid killed? He was doing something wrong, made “bad choices,” should have done differently, had a history of this or that, etc. etc. It has to be the victim’s fault if he’s Black.

    • Rachael says:

      Very interesting indeed. Thanks LLMPapa!

    • seallison says:

      Papa — did you notice — he arrived on scene at approximately 1900 hrs.. .and he says the statement is true and correct.

      I think he may be wrong or he was the officer on route to answer to Fogens complaint about a suspicious young, black male in his domain.

      If this were true — how did Smith get there 5 seconds after shots were fired and was determined first on scene.

    • leander22 says:

      nice little summary. Marvin Gaye doesn’t seem to be restricted copyright wise over here too. 😉

      Yes, very odd picture.

    • leander22 says:

      Seallison, the delayed guy, the one ordered to respond first is Raimondo Ayala, radio ID: S1312.

    • groans says:

      Wagner says he emailed “both” of his photos to Serino. Have we seen Wagner’s OTHER photo yet?

      • blushedbrown says:

        Ummm, I don’t think so. It was of Trayvon’s dead body.

        The other photo of Trayvon’s body that was taken by witness was mistakenly given out along with some other documents being released by the State, if IIRC.

        So both the cop and witness took photos of Trayvon.

  8. Kelly Payne says:

    Jessy you’ve been reading my mind again. Stop it lol.

  9. colin black says:

    Sorry Prof reading comments back see you already answered the question.
    Wasnt plaugeriseing honest.

    • leander22 says:

      Colin, it’s not so easy to register a response above if you are reading on.

      Besides lately even now while I am responding to you, and once I push the button it will show up below your comment, I am relegated to the end of the comments and can’t really see the comment I am responding to anymore. Don’t worry, at least I do not suspect you of anything. Quite the opposite I was pleased to see you responded to the comment. Honestly, since it felt odd.

    • seallison says:

      Just as Leander says, Colin. Sometimes comments do not seem to fall into place. So, I try to state the commenters name before I start. It may help at times.

  10. I firmly believe trayvon was standing facing Zimmerman when he was shot.I also believe he was so terrified he was crying when he was killed. I also believe Zimmerman told him he was going to die hence the shriek just before the shot.

    • Rachael says:

      Me too.

    • Xena says:

      Me three. On the 911 call that captured the screams, there is a faint “help” that ends with the gun shoot. What I hear in the faintness is a change of position that might even have been caused by a jerk of the body.

    • SpecialladyT says:

      Me four. I believe that Trayvon was standing trying to get away, hence the screams. And I believe forensics will prove this at trial.

    • looneydoone says:

      Me too, Jessica

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      But what do we do with all the witness accounts that saw them on the ground?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I have thought that both were on their feet with Trayvon trying to get away from gz who was holding on to the back of Trayvon’s sweatshirt.

        I then think they fell near the bushes of Witness 6’s house and were grappling toward the sidewalk.

        Do you think that after the sidewalk where they were lying in a north/south position (according to Witness 6 and, I think, Witness 1) that somehow Trayvon got to his feet with gz grabbing the front of Trayvon’s sweatshirt, and then gz shot him?

      • Xena says:

        But what do we do with all the witness accounts that saw them on the ground?

        We connect the dots. Witness accounts say that they saw two men on the ground before the shot was fired. Emphasis should be placed on the “before.” Also, in the 911 call that captured the screams, they float signifying movement.

        I get the impression there was standing-holding, falling-rolling, and standing-holding.

        Let’s get into GZ’s mind for a moment. (I know. Very difficult since his mind is sick.) Each time that he saw someone, he likely changed his position or what he was doing.

        It was not until Jeremy walked out and said he was calling the cops that GZ’s voice becomes louder in the background cursing at Trayvon, and it was when Jeremy walked back into his residence that GZ shot and killed Trayvon. GZ was very much aware of what was going on around him.

        He knew that people were calling 911. He didn’t want them to. He was waiting for the cops to call him, remember?

        That is one aspect of the Hannity interview that is gold. GZ said in that interview that he was terrified, not wanting the cops to arrive and find him there holding his gun and shoot him.

        Now, I’m going to throw this out for the sake of why-didn’t. Jeremy’s actions during his wife’s 911 call that captured the screams are very significant, because it’s during that time (just before the gunshot) that GZ says Trayvon was going for THE gun. According to GZ, Trayvon had moved his hand from GZ’s mouth, right? So, why didn’t GZ say to Jeremy, “He’s going for my gun man. Help me”???????

      • Rachael says:

        I believe they may well have been on the ground, maybe even Trayvon on top, but GZ got up, grabbed him, threatened him and while Trayvon was begging for his life, calling out mamma, GZ shot him.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I can agree with both of you, Xena and Rachael.

        I do wish we could hear the part of Witness 11’s call that is redacted when she gives her name and address, etc.

        • Xena says:

          I do wish we could hear the part of Witness 11′s call that is redacted when she gives her name and address, etc.

          Yahtc, Oh, so do I, because we can hear GZ’s voice before and after that. No matter. The FBI had the tape to enhance to determine what GZ is saying to Trayvon. They know and BDLR let it be known at the last hearing that the State knows too. O’Mara probably knew before then, but now that the cat is out of the bag, it takes the bite out of his argument that GZ was screaming for help.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Yep……gz is in biggg trouble.

    • William Walton says:

      Jessica, I stated the same thing long ago using a Physics force of gravity model. However, there were others who stated that Travon yelled out “Get Off Me.” In talking to my daughter and younger son, their comment was “Get Off Me” meant get out of my face, get out of my space. and in my daughters comment “Quit Hitting on Me’! So, GZ ending up on TM’s body by the laws of Physics meant that both were standing when the fatal shot was fired. GZ then fell on TM. Hope the Prosecution picks up on this same line of thought and presents it to the jury.

    • Malisha says:

      If the bullet entered the body straight, at no angle, but perpendicular to the ground front to back, but traveled from the left side of Trayvon’s chest slightly to the right side of Trayvon’s chest, all that means to me (using physics alone, not ballistics or engineering or forensics or any other specialized knowledge, or anatomy or physiology) is that Fogen shot right-handed directly into Trayvon’s chest. After all, even when we brush our teeth, using the right hand instead of both hands together will give a minute slant to our actions. A tiny slant by the use of the right hand (Fogen’s right to Trayvon’s left) expressed in a projectile travelling at top speed and crashing into a body in a short distance will produce some directional distortion, won’t it? ❓

      • William Walton says:

        Malisha, you are correct. In Physics, for every action there is a reaction. In addition, I do not think that TM was just standing still waiting to be shot. He would be moving trying to get away from GZ, the creep with the gun.

  11. colin black says:

    During the trial, ballistic (a) expert(s) will testify the following:

    a. The location of the shell-casing relative to where Trayvon’s body was found rules out with scientific certainty that Zimmerman was on the ground with Trayvon on top of him, straddling him, etc. when he fired a shot and killed him.

    b. The location of the shell-casing is consistent with Trayvon lying on his back with his head positioned towards the sidewalk and Zimmerman on top of him when the fatal shot was fired,

    OR

    c. The location of the shell-casing is consistent with Trayvon standing with his back towards the sidewalk and Zimmerman standing in from of him when the fatal shots was fired.

    If I am not mistaken, shell-casings from Kel-Tec 9mm always eject in a specific manner and move in specific a direction after ejection. Deviations are not possible. If any version of Zimmerman’s story were to be true, the shell-casing would be located somewhere else.

    Besides the trajectory of the bullet, the location of the shell-casing is another one-ton-dynamite underneath the self-defense story as constructed by Zimmerman. I am not sure we have fully appreciated the magnitude of the devastation this dynamite would bring about in Zimmerman’s defense. Your thoughts

    Im not a defence lawer and also know next to zilch about guns nor wish to do so.
    However given everything you say above is gospel truth regards identical ejection trajectory .

    To counter that as the defendats council I would simply say.

    You cant expect the shell caseing to travell as if it were done in a shooting range or some demostrative vt .
    Where ten times out of ten it will eject in a predictable path.
    My client wasnt shooting his weapon at a shooting range he wasnt slightly crouched both hands extended in a classic shooting posture,
    It was dark he was on his back frightened struggleing to save his life.
    His assailant was on top of him reinging down blows smashing his head into the concrete whist simaltaniously banging his head into the concrete and smothering him pressing down with his full weight an two of his six hands.
    You cannoy expect a bullet to eject in a noemal consistant wat given thease uniqe set of circumstance.
    The assailant was a top my client mere inches away
    My client had to fire with one hand his right an as his left hand was between him an his target,
    He also had to take carefull aim to avois shooting a finger of or blowinging his hand of as he had hollowpoint bullets.
    This shows you how close an confined a shot it was an how close his target was .
    Given thease circumstances the shell caseing could have struck or bounced off multiple surfaces.
    Could have hit the deceased or even hit my clients face in wich case its trajectory would be anything but predictable nor line up with examples you have seen from a normal shooting stance.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      I never put much thought into the shell casing, because so many people were walking around the crime scene and they had to use a metal detector to find it.

      The GRS baffles me…I still don’t understand how there wasn’t more than one particle of lead on the upper back of Fogen’s right sleeve. I know that it was a close range shot and GSR from the muzzle was on Trayvon, but how come nothing from the cartridge ejection chamber got on Fogen if they were supposedly that close to each other.

      Is it because he was holding Trayvon’s shirt and that captured the emissions instead of allowing them to go farther onto Fogan’s chest or sleeve?

    • leander22 says:

      My client wasnt shooting his weapon at a shooting range he wasnt slightly crouched both hands extended in a classic shooting posture

      I am with you Colin, but I don’t think O’Mara would even need to refer to the specific situation in which the gun was shot. Although I have no idea about the mechanics involved, it feels it doesn’t matter how the trigger is pulled. Strictly I assume that not even the same Keltec model shows exactly the same distributive patterns of bullet and shell using the same munition. Would we be able to attribute a special bullet to a special gun if they were absolutely identical? if they aren’t wouldn’t that in minor ways influence other things? Besides, even without complications like hitting something and bouncing in a different direction there must be a degree of arbitrariness involved and all you can get is a certain pattern, it feels.

      The anatomical evidence of the straight channel of the shot seems to be far more relevant it feels. Considering Fogen’s tale.

      In any case I guess our host would know of cases were this type of evidence was used, and if he hasn’t there is a good chance that matters aren’t that easy.

      But this comment was superfluous again, I am only babbling. 😉

      • gbrbsb says:

        @leander22 said: “The anatomical evidence of the straight channel of the shot seems to be far more relevant it feels.”

        Until a few days ago as all of us, unless I was understanding it wrong, I was convinced the bullet´s trajectory went in a straight channel front to back, i.e. perpendicular to the body in frontal view but the other day I read somewhere that the trajectory went from left to right. I was more than surprised so with the Autopsy report and some anatomy diagrams I found on the web I tried to follow the bullet. The autopsy heading titled “Path of projectile” notes, “skin, left anterior 5th intercostal space, pericardial sac, right ventricle of heart, right lower lobe of lung” while the heading titled, “Direction of Projectile”, notes “Directly, front to back”. Following the organs it really does appear the bullet did go from left to right and that as the article explained, “Direction of projectile” was referring to the general direction, i.e. that the shot was fired at the front towards the back shot and not from the back towards the front. I am not a doctor so it may be best if a someone with a more medical background could check this out because if correct it could affect a lot of our conclusions.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The bullet went straight in with no angle, but, because it was a hollow point, it broke up and the pieces went in different directions.

          A hollow point bullet will break up after it travels a distance inside the body. Thus, it leaves enough of an initial wound path for the Coroner to determine it’s initial course.

      • seallison says:

        gbrsb – There is an explanation for the shot and its angle from someone in forensics. It is in discovery somewhere. I will have to dig. But it is there.

      • gbrbsb says:

        @Seallison
        Thanks, I have the written explanation and if the same one you note it is basically the same as the bullet point version but with connecting words added so as to form a written report, i.e.

        “Further examination demonstrates that the wound track passes directly from front to back and enters the pleural cavity with perforations of the left anterior 5th intercostal space, pericardial sac, right ventricle of the heart, and the right lower lobe of the lung.”

        As I noted previously, the site I found by chance explained that “Direction of projectile” refers to the “general” direction of the bullet, i.e. front to back, top to bottom, left to right, etc., while “Path of projectile” refers to the actual path, track, trajectory or route, and in Trayvon´s Autopsy at least they note the organs being perforated by the bullet as it passes.

        As I said I am not a doctor but if you follow the perforations, i.e. 5th intercostal space, pericardial sac, right ventricle and right lung lobe, the bullet is either travelling left to right or ricocheting back and forth inside but nothing is noted of this so it seems unlikely. In fact if you look at where the left 5th intercostal space is it doesn´t appear a bullet entering perpendicular to the body from front to back could perforate the right lower lung lobe on the other side, the right. I wish we had a medically savvy blogger because it could be important.

  12. Chocolate Diva says:

    Do y’all think the meds he was on will be brought up. I said he shouldn’t had a gun based on the side effects of the Meds he was taking. To me that plays a hugh part in this case.

    • Rachael says:

      I don’t think the meds he was on will be brought up. It would be pointless. All we know is that he was prescribed these meds. Because no levels were drawn, we don’t know if he was under-medicated, over-medicated or even taking them at all.

      If he was taking his medications appropriately, they should be of no concern. If he was over-medicated it could be a problem. If he was under-medicated or not taking them at all but was supposed to, that might be even a bigger problem.

      But because he was not tested, there is no way to know, so it would be pointless.

      • Rachael says:

        Also, side effects to medications are not a given, the are only possibilities. For example, Amoxicillin, a very common antibiotic, is associated with numerous side effects and contraindications.

        The adverse effects of Amoxicillin can affect almost every system of the body. Effects on the central nervous system can be agitation, anxiety, behavioral changes, confusion, dizziness, headache, transient hyperactivity, insomnia and seizures.

        Mild to serious adverse skin reactions (rashes) including acute exanthematous pustulosis, erythematous maculopapular rash, erythema multiforme, exfoliative dermatitis, hypersensitivity vasculitis, mucocutaneous candidiasis, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, toxic epidermal necrolysis and urticaria.

        Gastrointestinal side effects such as a black “hairy” tongue, diarrhea, hemorrhagic colitis, nausea, pseudomembranous colitis, C. difficile associated diarrhea (CDAD), vomiting and rarely tooth discoloration that may be brown, yellow, or gray.

        Hematologic changes that can become quite severe including agranulocytosis, anemia, eosinophilia, hemolytic anemia, leukopenia, thrombocytopenia, thrombocytopenic purpura and a serum sickness-like reaction.

        Adverse effects on the liver ranging from transient enzyme elevation (increased AST and ALT) to actual liver disease acute cytolytic hepatitis, cholestatic jaundice, and hepatic cholestasis.

        Renal side effects that include the formation of crystals in the urine (crystalluria) predisposing some individuals to kidney stones.

        http://voices.yahoo.com/the-side-effects-amoxicillin-7469880.html

        Yet many of us have taken Amoxicillin or our children have for ear infections with no side effects whatsoever.

        All medications have possible side effects. But that doesn’t mean you will have them.

  13. AURORA, Colo. — Four people are dead after a gunman held police at bay for several hours while barricaded in a townhome in the same Colorado city where a shooter in a crowded theater fatally wounded 12 people six months ago

    http://www.mercurynews.com/nation-world/ci_22317237/four-dead-inside-aurora-colorado-home-including-gunman

  14. SearchingMind says:

    During the trial, ballistic (a) expert(s) will testify the following:

    a. The location of the shell-casing relative to where Trayvon’s body was found rules out with scientific certainty that Zimmerman was on the ground with Trayvon on top of him, straddling him, etc. when he fired a shot and killed him.

    b. The location of the shell-casing is consistent with Trayvon lying on his back with his head positioned towards the sidewalk and Zimmerman on top of him when the fatal shot was fired,

    OR

    c. The location of the shell-casing is consistent with Trayvon standing with his back towards the sidewalk and Zimmerman standing in from of him when the fatal shots was fired.

    If I am not mistaken, shell-casings from Kel-Tec 9mm always eject in a specific manner and move in specific a direction after ejection. Deviations are not possible. If any version of Zimmerman’s story were to be true, the shell-casing would be located somewhere else.

    Besides the trajectory of the bullet, the location of the shell-casing is another one-ton-dynamite underneath the self-defense story as constructed by Zimmerman. I am not sure we have fully appreciated the magnitude of the devastation this dynamite would bring about in Zimmerman’s defense. Your thoughts?

    • SearchingMind says:

      Ignore the typos. The system I use always do some funny stuff.

    • Well, I’m not convinced the ejection pattern is identical and, even if it is, calculating the exact position of the gun relative to whether it was pointing up or down, the direction it was pointing and its height above the ground creates too many variables and too many different potential locations for the gun to obtain any useful information. It’s all too speculative.

      Plus, the trajectory of the casing may have been interrupted by colliding with the defendant’s nose.

      All bets are off.

      • leander22 says:

        Thanks for this response Professor, it sounded slightly spectacular like from a fiction plot, yes, way too many unknown variables. Not even the precise location of the body is known, since it was turned, but how exactly and to what side or in which direction.

        In combination with this slightly cryptic law culture declaration a question mark forms in my head.

        But thanks, you have the expertise in these matters and while I am interested in law it is not my culture.

        What’s the matter something changed in this comment section, but I do not understand precisely what. 😦

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        I don’t know….It occurs to me that Dale Gilbreath makes a statement that heavily relies on that bullet casing and its location along with the location of the body….

      • Jun says:

        Gilbreath is correct though, because the bullet casing and the body puts a huge dent in the defendant’s claims that he did not stalk and continuously pursue the boy…

        Just based on what Gilbreath stated, Fogenhats had to have went down the back pathway, which in actuality, answers Omara’s question regarding proving the stalking aspect of the case from the defendant

    • Jun says:

      If Fogenhats shot him while on top, the bullet casing would be closer to the body area, like the chest or stomach area…

      The casing was found south of the body, a couple feet from Trayvon’s feet, where his dead body lay…

      Considering the casing expels backwards a couple feet or a foot, when the gun is pointed straight, while parallel to the ground… I believe he shot the kid while they were both standing or kneeling to one another and then Fogenhats lunged at Trayvon as he fell backward, and then Fogen flipped him over to his stomach

  15. SearchingMind says:

    Oh Professor. I disagree. The law is my culture. If I forget thee Oh law, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth and right hand wither.

    • Rachael says:

      This is in response to what?

      • SearchingMind says:

        It was meant as a joke to Professor’s change of subject from law to culture. I call it humor.

      • SearchingMind says:

        I responded out of courtesy. There may not be a next time.

      • Malisha says:

        Oh SearchingMind, that’s hilarious, once I got it!

        I used to be a waitress in the NY Delicatessen “Sarge’s” on 3rd Ave. 11 pm to 7 am, Thursday through Sunday. So it was the “very active night crowd.” But every morning at 3 am when there was usually a lull, a guy named Ken came in and had coffee and a bagel. His tab was $2 every night and he left $1 tip every night. As I would clean my station he would joke around. I later found out he was a comedy writer and he would come in in the middle of his “shift” (he was a night person) and feed me info. to make me start cracking jokes and saying one-liners, and then he’d go home and add them to his stash, and sell the stuff. He was getting $50 for a one-liner at that time. I found out when I watched TV at a friend’s house once (I had no TV) and heard one of my jokes coming out of Marilyn Michaels’ mouth! When I asked him how come he hadn’t either cut me into the buiness or helped me also become a comedy writer, he said, “You couldn’t make a living! I have to throw 90% of your material away! It goes right over people’s heads. You’d starve! You better keep your night job!” 😀 🙄

        SearchingMind, YOU went over MY head!

        • cielo62 says:

          Malisha- jokes too smart for the common folks! I love it! True, comedy must conform to the lowest common denominator. Unless you’re a specialized comic like George Carlin was. Loved that guy.

          Sent from my iPod

  16. Chocolate Diva says:

    Mr. Letterman I was debating with some GZ supporters. I was saying the state is going to wonder where is all the blood if he was getting beat like that. Them dumb people was saying DNA is not going to be brought up in court. They say why used DNA when you got eye witnesses is that true please respond back.

    • cielo62 says:

      Eye witnesses are not accurate. DNA is. Zidiots are 100% wrong.

      Sent from my iPod

    • No, that’s absolutely ridiculous. You could say that DNA and blood spatter are the heart of the prosecution case and the eyewitness testimony is important only to the extent that it confirms that evidence. Any conflicts will, as they should be, be dismissed as mistaken eyewitness testimony.

      Whoever said that knows nothing about trials. I would call them idiots, except that I agreed not to use that term. I will say that statement or belief is about as stupid as stupid gets.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Wow. Never speak to such people ever again. They have some sort of mental problems. Advise them to seek treatment, there are new therapies that can make their lives more tolerable and much improve their abilities to get better paying jobs. Although, I seriously doubt that some pharmaceutical assistance will be necessary. But they can still live happy and healthy lives. Their is no need for them to live in despair.

    • Jun says:

      DNA is hard science so of course it will come out at trial… it scientifically proves things

      and besides, the witnesse testimonies do not support the defendant’s lies anyhow, so I do not see their argument…

      let me guess they are relying on witness 6’s retracted statement and claim that is multiple witnesses

      • Xena says:

        let me guess they are relying on witness 6′s retracted statement and claim that is multiple witnesses

        @Jun. There is a member of the blackbutterfly Yahoo group who debates the Zidiots and from time to time, I check out her comments on Yahoo to provide her with emotional support. (Yahoo comments are like walking into a KKK rally.) The current Zidiot argument about DNA is that the coroner tested Trayvon’s fingernails to see if he defended himself from GZ and because none of GZ’s DNA was found beneath Trayvon’s fingernails, it means (to them) that GZ did not attack Trayvon. (sigh)

        You see, they have turned the case around to George Zimmerman v. Trayvon Martin, so they put Trayvon on trial and flip the burden of proof. It’s no longer GZ proving that Trayvon attacked him but rather, that GZ physically attacked Trayvon.

        • Yep. Crazy and stupid is a deadly combination.

          • cielo62 says:

            Crazy, stupid AND drugged up. Lethal combination.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            It’s just as crazy and stupid as the theory that Trayvon went home, changed pants, then came back out and attacked GZ. Of course, that doesn’t explain what GZ was doing for about 4 minutes out of his truck and at the T — they have no answer for that.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Their incorrect thinking is not going to change what the case is about, or the points at law that must be proven.

          BTW, do they have anyone who MOM can put on the stand, who can credibly say that GZ did not attack Trayvon? Because the evidence is going to show that GZ had a firearm and Trayvon had nothing but his bare hands.

          GZ is going to have to have people claim he was covered with blood, but MOM’s also going to need to put someone on the stand to say that TM was the cause of it. Meaning, MOM needs someone to say they witnessed TM attacking GZ and drawing blood. The one witness who made that helpful claim for GZ, has backed away from it. Leaving GZ hanging out to dry.

          MO, FT, all of them have abandoned GZ and he has impoverished his family, they can’t be too happy with that at all. His father can no longer pull strings, because everyone in gov’t is afraid to talk to him. What money GZ has left he won’t give them a dime of. Though he claims he needs it for his defense, he has also sworn that he won’t pay MOM a dime either.

          All he has left to alienate now, is a rag tag bunch of anonymous board posters, too silly for words. They don’t know the law, they’re ignorant of the evidence, they’re not even capable of finding any alternative story that MOM might build a case around. Their nasty antisocial remarks color them as reprehensible to the world. Meanwhile they’re of absolutely no use to GZ. He’s toast!

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr.

            Their incorrect thinking is not going to change what the case is about, or the points at law that must be proven.

            See, that is what they don’t realize. For instance, I don’t care how many times they say GZ got out of his truck to look for an address, his NEN provides evidence otherwise.

            BTW, do they have anyone who MOM can put on the stand, who can credibly say that GZ did not attack Trayvon?

            That’s why they are afraid of DeeDee and have gone on a doxing campaign of anyone they think might be her. I understand that Junior tweeted a photograph of a wrong DeeDee, so GZ’s brother is now included in harassing others.

            GZ is going to have to have people claim he was covered with blood, but MOM’s also going to need to put someone on the stand to say that TM was the cause of it.

            That, and the fact that GZ admitted he did not kill in self-defense because of any injuries. Rather, he made up a story that he “felt” Trayvon saw the gun.

            I think you’re correct about GZ having no intentions of ever paying O’Mara. He didn’t pay his attorney in the civil case either. GZ is a taker, a user, and no doubt believes that everyone else has it better than him, so why should he pay them for services rendered. Proof? The security firm.

          • cielo62 says:

            GZ-definition of a deadbeat.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Unless I miss my guess, I strongly suspect that additional charges will be filed against him. They’re just giving him time to become comfortable with the first round.

          • cielo62 says:

            Lonnie- I was wondering about that. Even in my non- legal little brain I can find another half dozen charges that can stick like crazy glue to a broken cup.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie.

            Unless I miss my guess, I strongly suspect that additional charges will be filed against him.

            That’s my guess too. Since the State’s investigation is ongoing, we just might see additional charges.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I wonder if there was a land line in Ms Greens home? Did GZ have a land line? Many homes today have no land lines at all, because everyone has cell phones.

            With hurricane Sandy, we learned just how devastating power losses can be. Loss of communications, because people can’t charge their devices, can be a critical flaw in the flow of data, needed to save lives and recover from disasters. I think that power companies need to install public emergency charging stations around towns. Ones that could be remotely unlocked in times of need. That way, if a station is unlocked you know that it’s working.

            We’re into a new age now, our emergency thinking needs to be upgraded as well. We can’t have 19th century emergency systems in a 21st century world.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Start

            Did GZ have a land line?

            I don’t know about in the townhouse he rented, but according to the Credit Union statements, he had one installed. It might have been installed in Osterman’s house.

            In the roaming days of the “bag phones,” then the “brick phones,” I’ve never had confidence to give up my land line for cell phone only. Although I have portable phones on the land line, at least one is hard wired.

      • Jun says:

        Perhaps they were kidding

        at least i hope so… LOL

        It is basic physics

        you touch something, you get trace

        so all that proves is GZ never tried to headbutt Trayvon’s fingernails I guess LOL

      • Malisha says:

        Here’s the way I think the Treepers will be imagining the trial will happen:

        They will have O’Mara say, at the outset, “Your Honor we do not agree that DNA evidence should be used against a decent American.”

        Then they expect the judge will either say, “OK no DNA” or “Forgetaboudit, fools, the DNA comes in.” If the judge agrees to the “no DNA” (because we have a decent American witness who trumps all other evidence, you see) then great; but if the judge says, “DNA evidence will be considered,” then they will recuse her for being unfair, and get a better judge Eventually they’ll get Robert Zimmerman Sr. to be the judge and everything will work out for the best.

        Or…Not. 🙄

    • SpecialladyT says:

      I have a good one too.

      I was reading the In Session thread on Zimmerman and there is a few Zidiots claiming that George’s vitals would be within normal range just after shooting Trayvon Martin to death. They went on to say that the Adderall that he was prescribed would have calmed his heart to a normal beat within minutes of shooting Trayvon and that is why George’s heart rate was within normal range.

      These people who support George Zimmerman might want to seek help for their delusional intoxication. lol

  17. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< Saturday. PLAYOFFS START TODAY! Go Ravens!!

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