Featuring: LLMPapa Video paying his respects to Officer Mike Wagner

Here’s LLMPapa with a new video paying his respects to Officer Mike Wagner of the Sanford Police Department.

Yikes!

234 Responses to Featuring: LLMPapa Video paying his respects to Officer Mike Wagner

  1. Chocolate Diva says:

    If Trayvon, had an injuries to his finger then why didn’t the EMT’s notice it. I remember paramedic #2 saying the only injury he had was the gunshot wound.

    • seallison says:

      There are so many unanswered questions. With the lack of report-writing skills shown, it must be an insult to those professionals who really care about the quality of their work and the honourable purpose they have chosen to serve and protect.

  2. esentrick says:

    follow

  3. Brandy, Calif says:

    and when and what hospital or Doc office did this lying, manipulative Zimmanator go and get his nose reset?? He didn’t because he never had a broken nose to begin with! George of the Jungle should of watched out for that tree! lol I believe he ran into a tree that nite IMO

  4. Malisha says:

    Signs at the courthouse:

    Trayvon Benjamin Martin – 18 in Memory

    (the letter 18 is Hebrew symbol for “LIFE”)

  5. Cercando Luce says:

    “Given we know what a freakin scatter brain the accused is”

    It’s not a given. Ole Fogen was quite the CEO directing Shellie in their recorded jail conversations, well able to remember what was where and who was looking, as well as which of Shellie’s weaknesses (forgetfulness of passwords and who was doing what) might be a problem. He got starry-eyed at being on a Mr. Hannity’s National Television Program and mouthed a few manipulative bloopers (mention god to appeal to church-going types, but no regret, to appeal to action video gamers).

    He came up with a story on the spot (while IMO under the influence of drugs or alcohol) that was good enough for the Caste Party at SPD to let him walk. He set up a web site that was very effective in raising funds quickly. His story has holes and his paranoia kept him from fleeing the country in early April 2012. But scatter-brain? I think he has done a good job confusing observers. Non-followers even today spout the “he gave as good as he got” impression he was able to convey early on. Not as bad-memoried and ADHD as he has told LE.

    • CherokeeNative says:

      Fogen is an idiot – but I tend to agree with you that he is not a scatter-brain. This is a game he has played all of his life – lying and maneuvering people to see things from his perspective. He’s extremely sly in that regard. Problem is, he has never had the opportunity to have his lies tested by forensic specialists. He’s in checkmate IMO.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      Just like in his other NEN calls…he has no problem recalling the names of streets outside of RVC when telling them where they should go looking for these suspicous people. His memory is fine and he is a master manipulator just like his cousin Christina described him as being.

      I get sick listening to his calls with Shellie…the way he talks to her is weird. If my husband spoke to me like that I’d be so turned off. It sounds perverted to me, it is his wife, yet he sounds like he is praising a child. Maybe she likes it, IDK.

  6. CherokeeNative says:

    ShannonInMiami – Are you trying to reach me? TIA

  7. colin black says:

    seallison says:

    January 6, 2013 at 9:23 am

    It was not the kid. The description comes from the States most credible witnesses. There seems to be alot of so-called errors ALL stating white tee-shirt – even the EMT who was up close and personal so how can you dismiss it claiming it was dark and rainy. If an EMT washes arms and hands off, both the jacket and long-sleeves would have to have been removed (arms). In that case, the EMT would have stated that — the cuffs were removed, yjen the jacket, then the long-sleeved shirt.

    You see, there is quite a difference, isn’t there

    Ironicly the only truth out of the accussed mouth concerning Trayvon.
    And quite remarable with someone with a bad memory anyway.
    Ans some one whom had only glanced an seen Trayvon in passing
    Or through rear veiw mirror in the dark an rain
    Then suddenllly is in a fight to save his life
    The accussed gave a remarkable description of what Trayvon was in fact wearing.
    Grey sharcoalish colour hoodie with a button/badge .Lighter trousers an white sneakers type trainers.
    He give a better description of what Travon was dressed in than any of the other wittnesses did that evening about what they say
    An whom was wearing what
    Given we know what a freakin scatter brain the accused is

    I find this chilling as it demonstrates exactly how fixated he was with Trayvon that night he lasered in on him with such intence scrutinity he was blinkered to all except his prey.

    An laying the frame work stageing with the non emergancy
    An I dont mean the ground work for a pre planned murder

    Just the frame work to what ever crazy scenerio he had runnning through his deluded phyce…If you get my drift.

  8. Malisha says:

    Colin B, have you ever walked the West Highland Walk?

  9. colin black says:

    Ah em apoligies whatever I attempted to above doesnt apear to have worked .
    Replyd to the wrong post
    An somehoe managed to incorperate a post by the Prof inadvertantly.

    At times like thease I useally atter an expleattive but will refrain since it Sunday an Im in company.

  10. colin black says:

    Jun
    Indeed you can wash bloood of surfaces an it apears spotless
    With advances in detection tool techs now have available
    With blue star/ luminoul placed an object or even a body in totta
    January 6, 2013 at 12:50 am

    They had to physically clean off Fogenhats’ hands at the scene so what does that tell you about their theory regarding rain washing off dna?

    The fact remains, DNA is incredibly difficult to wash off. With Luminol, even if there was blood that was cleaned up, it still shows up when sprayed with luminol. There was just nothing there to test and to top it off, Trayvon’s body was covered with a canvas to preserve the evidence, so there goes that theory from them

    Here is another story about DNA…

    In Canada, an 11 year old girl got raped and murdered, and her body found a few days after the fact. The CSI immediately gathered swab samples from her vagina as it appeared that it was a sex and violence crime, to help catch the attacker. During that time when this crime occurred, DNA testing was at it’s infancy, so they could not make a profile till 10 years after the crime. Once DNA became advanced they retested the sample for the DNA profile of the suspect. Once they got the DNA profile, they went back to a person they had as a suspect 10 years before, and an undercover cop tailed the suspect until they could get a dna sample to match to the CSI swab from the victim’s vagina. They saw that the suspect smoked a cigarette and put out the butt in an ashtray and the undercover quickly went and grabbed the butt for a dna sample. They got the profile and the suspect tailed by the undercover was tailing the right guy as the samples matched. As you can see in this real tale, even after days of a dead body being out in the environment, they were still able to get DNA samples to catch the killer. They also were able to get DNA sample from simply the suspect touching their lips onto a cigarette butt. Considering how violatile DNA is in that even a small smidgen gets a reading, it proves the Zimmernuts Cult’s theory, ridiculous, regarding the Trayvon case. Blood is hard to wash off and considering the victim was dead, I dont see how Trayvon could have washed blood off his hands, let alone rain drops making any dent in the blood that should have been on Trayvon’s hands, considering the cops showed up 1 minute after the shot so …

    Reply

    Frederick Leatherman says:

    January
    l darkness add luminaoul an special light source lamp
    An blood becomes visable and testable
    Even minute samples useing dna seqenceing they can clone amounts to become above the thresh hold to tesT rIGHT DONT know whats going on
    I meant to cut an paste this in befote my above answer
    If that makes sence

  11. colin black says:

    Jun
    Indeed you can wash bloood of surfaces an it apears spotless
    With advances in detection tool techs now have available
    With blue star/ luminoul placed an object or even a body in tottal darkness add luminaoul an special light source lamp/
    An blood becomes visable and testable
    Even minute samples useing dna seqenceing they can clone amounts to become above the thresh hold to test

  12. colin black says:

    I love this song so much I lived near Leith the Doch area of Edinburgh.
    Leith Walk wich starts more or less at the end of Pricess Street.
    And runs down in a slope to the sea front /Docks is one of the longest streets in Edindurgh
    Its about three miles long
    An tou have a great veiw of the entire vista down to the docks
    An when theres a grey cloudy day the clouds part an the sunshine comes streaming through reflecting on the firth of fourth its a beutifull sight
    You can even see Burnt Island in the distance/
    Im haveing it played at my funerall wich hopefull wont be for quite a while yet………….

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Beautiful lyrics, colin.
      .
      excerpt—
      .
      “My heart was broken, my heart was broken

      You saw it, You claimed it
      You touched it, You saved it

      My tears are drying, my tears are drying
      Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou
      My tears are drying, my tears are drying

      Your beauty and kindness
      Made tears clear my blindness”

  13. colin black says:

    seallison..
    Thankyou but never walk alone is for Trayvon an his loved oness….

    This One is also for our Colin –
    Youll Never Walk Alone – 150,000 Celtic fans

    Besides Im an Edinburgh lad
    And Hibernian is my team an this is there Anthem;
    .Composed by a couplw of die hard Hibernian Fans from Fife
    Dumfermline called the Proclaimers
    Much of our support base is Edinburgh an Fife Based

    ,, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkGxNxiN8rU

    • seallison says:

      I was incorporating the rendition by Barbra Streisand with that of Gerry and the Pacemakers version and adopted by the Celtic. I included your name only because of your Scottish heritage. I am a Celtic fan from Canada even though my family is in Fife. Please don’t let them know!

  14. Jun says:

    http://www.usbridalguide.com/special/chinesehoroscopes/Pig.htm

    According to this, Trayvon is a Wood Pig in Chinese Zodiac

    THE WOOD PIG 1935 AND 1995

    Wood Pigs are strong-minded individuals who give of themselves continuously. They have hearts of gold and won’t take no for an answer from a friend in need. These Pigs are practical, down-to-earth and industrious people, always looking for the next project to take on. They enjoy working in groups and work well with other people.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Impressive. But I am wondering where you are going with this. Can you help me out?

      • Jun says:

        I kind of put it there for fun. I dont actually believe in horoscopes. I looked up his Chinese Zodiac, which includes an element and an animal. It is simply the Zodiac reading of Trayvon, according to that website.

    • seallison says:

      Searching mind – It is Trayvon Martins Chinese Zodiac sign and it is almost Chines New Year on February 10th.

      Right Jun! We have our tickets for a huge fest in Chinatown because it also happens to be a Sunday. Yum!

  15. SearchingMind says:

    @ Professor and JUN, and anyone interested in HEALTHY/CONSTRUCTIVE thought-exchange

    “If Fogenhats shot him while on top, the bullet casing would be closer to the body area, like the chest or stomach area…”

    JUN, you have a working mind indeed. HOWEVER, I do think that if Zimmerman shot Trayvon while on top of him, the bullet casing would be found right where it was found.

    If Zimmerman shot Trayvon while underneath Trayvon, the bullet casing would be found (on the other side of the sidewalk) north-east of Trayvon’s head.

    We have Zimmerman’s own statement as to where, when and how he fired the gun. Those statements are, and they are not “variables”, the determinant factors here to establish the falsity or truthfulness of Zimmerman’s claims. The only possible relevant variables that might play any significant role in the present case are (a) strong wind (b) the direction of the wind and (c) possible defect on Zimmerman’s gun. These “variables” are not ad infinitum can be accounted for in ballistic experiments/test to determine what happened that night.

    Because of the location of the bullet casing, I do not believe that the bullet casing may have hit Zimmerman on the nose. For, if that were to be the case, that casing would be found inches/centimeters away from Trayvon’s body and not several feet away, south of Trayvon’s head.

    And yes, we know where Trayvon’s body lay because the officers stated that they rolled the body over to administer first aid. The body was not moved any further. And we also know that shell casings from Kel Tec 9mm eject in specific manner and move in specific direction (these are not “variables”). The Kel Tec 9mm is governed by a specific mechanical system. Mechanics teaches us that nothing – baring mechanical fault/failure – happens at random within a given mechanical system.

    • seallison says:

      The officers may have rolled the body over, but so did Fogen and who knows what else. He said Trayvon sat up, etc.. So, no we do NOT know where the body originally fell.

      As far as the bullet casing is concerned, we do not know where that flew either. The crime scene was not secured in a timely manner. Many people were milling about the area. One can not be certain if the bullet casing was found where it originally flew.

      As a result, I believe other possibilities exist whether the gun used is predictable when ejecting a bullet in a particular direction or not.

      • Jun says:

        The bullet casing definitely signifies being shot while the defendant was facing north, toward the T. The casing is perfectly south of the victim’s feet and is parallel to it. It aligns too accurately for the casing to have been moved at all. Also, you can’t take anything the defendant says at all, but I am gathering you are kidding.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Bullet-casings from a Kel Tec 9mm don’t get to eject right and travel north on Mondays, left and travel east on Tuesday, upward and travel in circles on Thursday, downwards and then upwards on Friday, etc. The movement of these projectiles is guided by specific rules of mechanics within the systems that project/eject them. That’s one of the safety conditions that have to be met before they are allowed into the market.

      We can only go on what is known and not on that which is speculative. What is known for now are (a) Zimmerman’s own statements (he pushed Trayvon off himself or shimmied his way out from underneath Trayvon), (b) the statements of the officers and (c) the shell casing was found, photographed and collected on the night of the murder (if I am not mistaken). Based on ‘a’ and ‘b’ a satisfactory scientific approximation can be made as to where Trayvon lay after he was shot. Based on ‘a’, ‘b’ and ‘c’ the falsity or truthfulness of Zimmerman’s claims can be calculated with a reasonable degree of certainty. Small inaccuracies/discrepancies here and there will not alter the outcome of the standard test. After that, other tests would be carries out taking into account any variable that might lead to different outcome(s).

      (Pls. do not forget that this is a thought-experiment we are engaged in. I could be wrong in my assessments on this issue. We debate and see what the debate leads to).

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        This is what I believe Dale Gilbreath was insinuating when he took the stand at the bond hearing….. while he was being cross examined O’smeara asked him a direct question that Gilbreath answered with a sort of knowing smirk…. it is one of the things that the treehouse nuts have been hanging their pathetic hopes on…. they repeat Officer Gilbreaths answer in a way that signifies that even the police officer admits that there is no evidence of ( sorry I can’t remember the exact question or what evidence they were specifically discussing ) George doing or not doing something….

        Gilbreath’s response was intentionally delivered in such a way that there was a MONSTROUS hole for the defense to try and wander through in an attempt to glean evidence they aren’t or weren’t privvy to at that time….

        Remember this was a bond hearing not a trial…. Judge Lester really was good to Fogen and his defense team….. he allowed far more BS than most judges would have….. but I don’t think he would have allowed the kind of time O’Smeara would have required to cypher out exactly what Gilbreath was saying….. I believe he was saying that the position and locations of Trayvons body and the bullet casing are going to tell a story that is significant to the prosecutions case against Fogen.

        • Xena says:

          they repeat Officer Gilbreaths answer in a way that signifies that even the police officer admits that there is no evidence of ( sorry I can’t remember the exact question or what evidence they were specifically discussing ) George doing or not doing something….

          @Tinytruthseeker. The question was if there was evidence of who started the confrontation. O’Mara attempted to avoid all facts leading up to the confrontation, such as, if not but for the fact that GZ left his vehicle and followed Trayvon, the two would not have come into physical contact.

          What the treeslummers fail to acknowledge is that since that hearing, O’Mara has dropped GZ’s SYG defense for standard self-defense.

    • Malisha says:

      Strong wind would not have significantly changed anything; small piece of metal moving at high rate of speed through air. Not a factor, IMO.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Nice to “see” you again, Malisha. I promised grandma to take her out today. I’ve to go now. You all have a nice day. Bye.

      • Malisha says:

        I was gone for a while because a friend of mine choked on a pill (she’s 82) and we had a little run-around and so forth (as Vladimir Nabokov would have said, “picnic, lightening”) and now she’s fine, I’m at my computer, and still drunk with disgust at the SPD et al. 😛

      • seallison says:

        It is hard to get rid of disgust like that sometimes.

    • Jun says:

      In that gun used in the murder, from videos I watched, the ballistics of the shell displacement after firing is it goes backward about a foot or two, if fired when the gun is parallel to the ground. Considering this, and the placement of the shell and the body, it matches that Fogenhats shot Trayvon while standing, facing north, and then Trayvon fell backward as Fogenhats lunged at him after shooting him to get on top of him and asphyxiate him by pinning the kid facedown, as well as molesting the kid’s body with his hands by rubbing them all over the dead kid’s body.

      The shot of Trayvon while underneath him is not physically possible according to Fogenhats’ claims. In a mount position in martial arts, your body is leaned forward. If Trayvon was shot like that, he would topple over onto Fogenhats, and blood would land all over the gun & sleeve & jacket of Fogenhats due to blood splatter and gravity of blood pouring out the hole in Trayvon’s chest. From there, Fogenhats would either have to push Trayvon off him to the left or right of his body. The shell casing would then be by his head. From here it is likely that Fogenhats would end up in Trayvon’s guard while on top of him. Besides, witness 18 watched it from the confrontation onward, and she stated that the defendant simply rose up off the body anyways, so she simply authenticates the story of my first paragraph and puts a huge dent in the defendant’s lies, on top of the ballistics not matching the defendant’s lies, the forensic evidence does not match either.

  16. Dan Q. Smith says:

    Wagner belongs in prison.

    • Malisha says:

      First, give the man a fair trial.
      Then take him out back and shoot him.

    • seallison says:

      I would rather show him what one full minute of being punched in the face with a broken nose and show him how his head would feel after the pounding taken on the pavement first.

  17. seallison says:

    change.org: Judge Nelson: Change George Zimmerman’s Court Date”

    Please sign:
    http://www.change.org/petitions/judge-nelson-change-george-zimmerman-s-court-date#share

    • SearchingMind says:

      How considerate of you. I love that. BUT, I would disagree with you on this one. I think that Trayvon would have wanted his murderer to be in Court answering for his murder on the day we remember his (Trayvon) birth; on the day he would have become an adult had he lived. I do not think that Trayvon would have wanted Zimmerman to stay at home on that special day eating, drinking and fooling around with his wife. Personally, I think on Trayvon’s birthday, Zimmerman should confronted squarely with the evil he has committed. The best way to do that is to have him (Zimmerman) in Court on Trayvon’s birthday. I hope you reconsider the petition. But I also think that reasonable people can differ on this one.

      • Rachael says:

        I agree with you. It is a particularly powerful day to be in court. I also think if anyone is to have a say in this, it is his parents and family, no one else. They may see it as a very powerful day, fittong of the reason for being there, they may not, but it should be up to them, not us.

      • cielo62 says:

        I also feel that staging a “birthday” for Trayvon near or at the courthouse would also he a powerful reminder if the evil done that day. GZ should NOT get a pass.

        Sent from my iPod

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Love the date. Why fool with God’s plan?

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        I agree….. unfortunately regardless of any petitions signed begging that the Feb. 5th date be changed I believe that Attorney O’Smeara will request another date on his own…. as he will know that what you just said Searchingmind is likely to be how the state would handle themselves there on Trayvon’s birthdate.

        I believe that they would confront Fogen about the significance of that day….. I’m not sure Judge Nelson would be very pleased with them as it doesn’t actually have anything to do with the actual case…. but BDLR will already have delivered the blow straight to Fogens face….as they say…. horse out of the barn and all that…

        I hope that if O’Smeara does ask for a change of date that his request is denied…. I have a GOOD feeling that if the date stands we will see people filling the courtroom and probably overflow as well….. people coming to support Trayvon’s family and showing the world that we will never forget this boy….and we are all here and waiting for justice to be delivered.

    • SearchingMind says:

      From a purely legal point of view, if Judge Nelson would grant your request (i.e. “Change George Zimmerman’s Court Date” because the said date happens also to be Trayvon’s birthday), she (Judge Nelson) shall have set herself up for recusal on the ground of (actual) bias. That, IMO, would be a wonderful new year gift for Zimmerman and O’Mara would be foolish not to utilize/exploit it to the fullest.

      • The only thing that would be more powerful than having fogen appear in court for a hearing on Trayvon’s birthday would be for fogen to appear in court for sentencing on Trayvon’s birthday.

      • Rachael says:

        Good point SearchingMind. It would be a bad move from that perspective.

      • Xena says:

        @SearchingMind.

        she (Judge Nelson) shall have set herself up for recusal on the ground of (actual) bias.

        I agree. Judges are not to be swayed by public opinion. Let GZ get his butt out of bed, out of his hotel room, and to the courthouse to face the music on Trayvon’s birthday.

    • seallison says:

      Oh, it is not my petition. It was sent to me and I just wanted to pass it along.

    • Malisha says:

      I signed because I was asked to and it is only a petition. I considered the idea that the parents would have an unbearable day, but also considered that if they do not want the court date changed, they can have Crump tell BDLR that they do not oppose the court date, and surely the prosecutor will make an appropriate motion to the judge to keep the court date, so their wishes will not be disregarded. I have no opinion as to whether or not it is right for the Fulton-Martins; they have to decide that. I lent my support without really feeling that it should be done — only that it should be considered and the people whose feelings are paramount should be asked, and their opinion deferred to.

  18. seallison says:

    Okay:

    White tee-shirt or Polo Shirt versus Red Jacket
    Covered in blood to abrasions rather than lacerations
    Broken nose to no noticeable injuries to the nose.
    Blood all over his hands and arms to little dribbles comin out the nose.

    Were half the witnesses and authorities at the same crime scene. Were half of them seeing the same so-called Fogen.

  19. momisbuff says:

    I don’t believe that a cop takes a picture and “forgets” about it for 27 days. Interestingly enough, about the same amount of time the witness who supposedly took the bloody head pic forgot to tell anyone about *that* photo. Oh, and both of these people downloaded the photos to a computer AND deleted from the original device immediately & then proceeded to forget about the photos for 3 weeks. The bloody head witness only remembered after THREE interviews? Uhmmm …. OK.

    By the way, I put the photos of the back of GZ’s head night of the shooting side-by-side. You can see them & read my comments here: http://healingfine.com/2012/06/180/ The basic idea is that the back of the head was cleaned at the scene and thought unworthy of so much as a band aid, but then began to bleed again in the police station. When the police finally took pictures, there was drying blood tracking along GZ’s head. The tracks seem to be running in the same weird direction as the initial photo from the scene. So, the EMTs did not provide band aids for a wound subject to bleed again? Then the police checked on GZ while blood dripped down his head, let it drip, then dry, then took pics? And, his head was tilted in the same direction in the police station as during his life-threatening fight? All quite odd if you ask me.

    • Malisha says:

      Momisbuff, this has bothered me since the first time I laid eyes on the first “hurt head” flick. ALSO, right then, I said, “Those rivulets don’t come from a head-smash!” Immediately. How dumb are we all supposed to be? As dumb as the SPD pretends to be? Why would we all be THAT dumb? It defies belief. 🙄

  20. seallison says:

    Witness says Hispanic man was wearing a short sleeved shirt. After he got up he walked toward her window and he placed his hand over his forehead as if peering off into the distance. She said that someone ran down the sidewalk toward the person with the flashlight. She says that person was not a police officer.

    Again – a short-sleeved shirt.

    • Dave. says:

      I believe that the kid who was walking the dog reported that the killer was wearing a red t-shirt. He was wearing an orange jacket with grey sleeves. Given that it was a dark rainy night, I think that’s an understandable error

      • Dave. says:

        i.e. the jacket could have appeared to be a shortsleeved shirt

      • seallison says:

        It was not the kid. The description comes from the States most credible witnesses. There seems to be alot of so-called errors ALL stating white tee-shirt – even the EMT who was up close and personal so how can you dismiss it claiming it was dark and rainy. If an EMT washes arms and hands off, both the jacket and long-sleeves would have to have been removed (arms). In that case, the EMT would have stated that — the cuffs were removed, yjen the jacket, then the long-sleeved shirt.

        You see, there is quite a difference, isn’t there.

      • seallison says:

        Yep. I often mix up a red jacket with a short-sleeve shirt. Especially when it raining and dark and I am standing next to the guy wearing it.

      • Dave says:

        Have you ever witnessed a murder while trying to catch a runaway dog on a dark rainy night? When you were 13 years old? Did you take careful note of how the principals were dressed?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Eyewitness reports are notoriously inaccurate.

      • seallison says:

        Dave – The statement DID NO come from the kid who was outside.

  21. seallison says:

    Sargeant Steve Lynch – When Smith & Fogen arrived at the PD, Lynch came out to meet them. Fogen asked to use the bathroom to wash up. He noticed 2 small lacerations to the back of Fogens head. But, he did NOT notice ANY injury to Fogens nose.

  22. seallison says:

    Michael Brandy –

    He has been employed for 8 years with the Sanford Fire Department, and is a paramedic who responded to the shooting.

    Besides the injuries to Fogens head, Brandy says Zimmerman had blood on his arms and hands, so they just cleaned him off.

    Question: He says Zimmerman was cuffed the whole time. Now, if Fogen had his red jacket on and a long sleeved tee-shirt underneath, how did he get blood all over his arms! Fogen told the female police officer that he had no wounds to his arms and she said it was good that his jacket and shirt protected him from injury.

    Papa – how do you get your blood-covered arms cleaned when you are wearing a long-sleeve shirt and jacket and you are hand-cuffed from behind.

    • Xena says:

      how do you get your blood-covered arms cleaned when you are wearing a long-sleeve shirt and jacket and you are hand-cuffed from behind.

      Uh — with a very long Q-tip?????

  23. seallison says:

    Lt. Michael Turner is a Fire Lieutenant for Station 38 – He is the supervisor. Turner has been with the department for almost 25 years. He responded with the call to Retreat View Circle. They all got out of their units and pulled out their equipment. They were notified that there was one shooting victim and one minor injury victim in a police car.

  24. seallison says:

    Kevin ORourke:

    He has been a firefighter/EMT for 10 years. They responded to the incident while heading back to the station from another call. They arrived on the scene about 5 mins after the call, and there were police present.

    Strange Issue: ORourke says Zimmerman was wearing a shirt and jeans. He doesn’t remember–standard jeans and a polo shirt. He doesn’t know what Trayvon was wearing.

    He is the one who MOM chose to take the stand at the first hearing:

    I have a serious problem with some of the statements he makes, especially the parts about 45% of Zimmerman’s face and head being “covered in blood”, and that Zimmerman’s clothing “may have been bloody” and that there was “blood on his shirt.” From what I have seen and read very little, if anything he says matches the written or photographic evidence.

    • seallison says:

      Papa – Does Zimmerman’s red jacket and long sleeve tee-shirt look like a polo shirt to you.

    • Jun says:

      Even worse is even if that was true, there was no blood at all on Trayvon’s hands, sleeves, or cuffs, so that claim makes Fogenhats’ claims even more null and void

    • Dan Q. Smith says:

      Liar. Is the whole state filled with racists? Jeez. I was born in Florida. I lived in a very protected white upper middle class bubble apparently. I’m never going to set foot in the state again. This whole incident is beyond disgusting.

    • Dave. says:

      Mr. O’Rourke’s job is saving lives. His focus should have been (and probably was) on the killer’s injuries. The blood on the latter’s face was just something that he had to clean off quickly in order to see where it was coming from so he could treat the injury.

      • seallison says:

        So, the blood on his hands and arms would not be looked at, is that what you are saying. If he didn’t know what Fogen was wearing, you don’t put it anything in a report that is not accurate.

      • Dave says:

        I haven’t read the report in a long time and can’t remember the details. I’m just saying that the killer’s clothing and blood on his uninjured hands were not of professional interest to him. I don’t doubt that he reported what he remembered (accurately or not). I believe (and I could be wrong) that he did his job and figured that the cops would do theirs.

      • looneydoone says:

        O’Rourke is a 10 year veteran with SFD who fills the entry level job classification of Firefighter/Engineer (driver) and holds a EMT Basic certification required of all Firefighters, Lifeguards, Park Rangers etc.

        gz was “cleaned up” by Firefighter Lt Stacy Livingston (as directed by the only Paramedic on scene, Michael Brandy, the commanding officer on medical call-outs. O’Rourke “assisted” SFD Lt Livingston . In other words, he brought the First Aid kit to Smith’s cruiser and observed while she “cleaned up” gz.

        I have a link to O’Rourke’s job classification/duties posted by City of Sanford FD….his duties include driving & cleaning SFD rigs, firefighting, janitorial duties at the station, pressure checking hoses and pumps, removal of wreckage at accident scene, and other duties “as directed”

      • seallison says:

        …and yet, MOM chose to have him, of all others on scene to put on the stand to testify.

      • Malisha says:

        Wait a minute. At the beginning of O’Rourke’s report, do we have that Fogen was “oriented X 3” and mentally alert? If not, why not? Did he just forego the test because someone on the scene told him what to do and, later, told him what to say? Someone like Tim Smith perhaps?

    • Chocolate Diva says:

      Papa did a video on Kevin. Kevin said in the bond hearing IT WEREN’T BLEEDING WHEN WE GOT THERE. Check it out this was a big covered up eveybody involved needs to be fired.

      • seallison says:

        Chocolate Diva — if they haven’t had to answer for their shoddy work in some way, something IS desperately wrong. As an accident investigator, if I were to add, delete, or alter a report in any way, I would be fired immediately. Errors can cost millions. I would add Supplementals when additional information became available. You just do not play around with this stuff.

  25. Jun says:

    Fogenhats did not get attacked at the T

    So it is the beginning of no SYG

    Fogenhats claimed to look for an address

    But he terrorized and shot a kid in the chest

  26. colin black says:

    Bernie turns to the jury points to the accussed

    He says Trayvon attacked him at the T ???

    Whats your fucking problem HOMIE?

    An then the accussed would have you beleive Trayvon Swung at him.

    IF THE PUCH DID NOT HIT THEN YOU MUST NOT AQUIT…

  27. Kelly Payne says:

    The sad thing is he turned 17 3 weeks before he was killed. And celebrated his mothers birthday 9 days before he was killed.

  28. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Do any of you get sudden shudders when you realize that February 26 is approaching?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I wish we could symbolically lay down flowers on the thread that day.

      • Xena says:

        Just like a put up a holiday card for Trayvon’s family on Blackbutterfly7, I plan on putting up something for his birthday. If there is anything you’d like for the 26th, let me know.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Yes, we ought to do something, Xena. Maybe, the Prof or LLMPapa will have an idea.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        When Trayvon’s birthday arrives, it will be so sorrowful for Tracy and Sabrina and all his loved ones. There will never find another Trayvon.

        [“There’s a new world somewhere
        They call the promised land.
        And I’ll be there someday
        If you will hold my hand.
        I still need you there beside me
        No matter what I do
        For I know I’ll never find another you.”]

        [ “I could search the whole world over
        Until my life is through
        But I know I’ll never find another you.”]

      • Erica says:

        what if we all made a 15-30sec video and send it to llmpapa and let him put it together in one video

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        That would be so nice, Erica.

    • Xena says:

      The only thing that makes me shudder is when I look at West. Trent Sawyer is right — that man looks like Skeletor.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      They will never find another Trayvon.
      My prayers and heart go out to them.

    • Dan Q. Smith says:

      It seems like yesterday I heard the terrible news. 😦

  29. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    LLMPapa…..Maybe sometime you could use Aretha Franklin’s “Chain of Fools” refrain melody when you show the keychain with the lit flashlight.

  30. Chocolate Diva says:

    I was on the In Session thread and everytime I bring up there was no blood on Trayvon, hands his supporters said that his hands wasn’t tested and the rain wash it off.

    • Xena says:

      That’s an old argument. My response to that was to ask why the rain didn’t wash the blood off GZ’s head.

      The Zidiots’ most current argument is that Trayvon put the 2 plastic bags on his hands and after being shot in the heart, lived long enough to take the off. They haven’t read discovery to know anything about the plastic bags, but what else is new?

      I tell ya, the Zidiots become more stupid by the second.

      • Chocolate Diva says:

        I also mention why was his vital normal after being in a fight for your life. You would think his blood pressure would sky rocket. They say the meds he is on calm his vitals down.

        • Xena says:

          @Chocolate Diva. Zidiots’ arguments are all speculation and demonstrate their lack of education and knowledge of legal procedure. They are still under the impression that Judge Nelson can dismiss the case sue sponte. In the alternative, they argue conspiracy theories such as if Attorney Crump is disbarred, GZ’s case will be dismissed.

          Some are still of the belief that the jury at GZ’s trial will be composed of 12 jurors.

          And they still can’t explain what GZ was doing from 7:13 until 7:16.

      • Rachael says:

        They say the plastic bags are what prevented injury too. Pffftttt

        • Xena says:

          @Rachael.

          They say the plastic bags are what prevented injury too. Pffftttt

          That one came about after the lab report proved them wrong in their argument that Trayvon pulled his hoodie sleeves over his hands.

          Most of their conspiracies and arguments actually contradict GZ’s statements and they’ve added in all sort of things into his NEN call that he didn’t say.

      • seallison says:

        Yeah, that is why – right after shooting Trayvon – he is talking with a neighbour about the gun he used. That is why he asked to have his picture taken and IF he was bleeding, etc., etc. He was really emotionally distressed by the sounds of it. Pffft.

      • As racerod said, they become more hateful every day.

        They’re just too pathetic for words.

        Such a waste of their own minds and lives.

        Sad.

        • Xena says:

          Such a waste of their own minds and lives.

          Indeed. I’d like to take a poll one day to see just how many people actually read comments posted on news sources, especially after the article is more than two days old. It’s my impression that there are not many at all. If that’s true, then all the Zidiots are doing are talking to themselves.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I have so much respect for Tracy and Sabrina. Amidst the STORM of hate from the gz camp, Tracy and Sabrina display such reserve and stellar dignity.

        .

      • seallison says:

        This One is also for our Colin –
        Youll Never Walk Alone – 150,000 Celtic fans

      • seallison says:

        You must listen with headphones.

      • seallison says:

        Oh, Oh!

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        To Xena….. I believe in Florida for a 2nd degree murder charge the defense can request a jury of 12…. I know that i watched a Florida trial this summer 2nd degree murder… 12 jurors and 2 alternates….

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, I don’t know but, can these people be any more *IGNORANT* from one day to the next? this bs makes no sense what so ever but, they continue to spout off at the mouth making themselves look more and more like the *IDIOTS* that they are.

        Poor Trayvon was nothing but a child and, now he is gone at the hands of a mad man who had no business being able to purchase a gun or a CCW permit. it’s not enough that this child’s life was stolen from him, he is now being slandered and vilified in death.

        it’s such a shame that these bigoted racist can see fit to spew their hatred against a deceased kid who never harmed anyone. a kid who was walking home minding his own business and, talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone while being watched by this mad man Fogen. I will be so glad when this trial is over with and he is locked away to where he can never harm another AA child.

        his sole mission along with his friends, Taaffe and Osterman was to rid his neighborhood of AA residents living there. IMO it’s very evident by the number of calls that he made to LE about them being suspicious. he also followed some of them home, as well asking what are you doing around here. he needs to be put away and, I hope come June he will.

        • Xena says:

          @ladystclaire.

          @Xena, I don’t know but, can these people be any more *IGNORANT* from one day to the next? this bs makes no sense what so ever but, they continue to spout off at the mouth making themselves look more and more like the *IDIOTS* that they are.

          Their thugification of Trayvon is a manner of profiling Black male teens to agree with their racial bigotry. It’s the same as rapists who whoreify victims of rape.

          The Zidiots, like GZ, Taaffe and Junior, want to justify profiling Black male teens based on crime in that area. I wonder who fits the profile of White collar criminals? Well, Osterman should be able to answer that, because one caused his demised. But that didn’t prevent him from befriending GZ who purports to be Hispanic when the mood suits him. Oh wait — but GZ does fit the description of a white collar criminal!

          • Actually GZ does not fit the profile of a white collar criminal.

            White collar criminals are people in the business, insurance and banking worlds who commit crimes involving fraudulent schemes of one sort or another. They often use Ponzi schemes and the business they manage to steal large sums of money.

            The savings and loan scandal in Texas in the 80s is a good example. Enron is another. The Wall Street banks and the real estate forfeiture crisis they precipitated is the biggest white collar fraud ever perpetrated.

            The defendant is not exceptional in any way. He’s just a violent criminal.

            He’s certainly not “a decent American.”

          • Xena says:

            @Prof.

            The defendant is not exceptional in any way. He’s just a violent criminal.

            Maybe small time con artist — he was able to con people to give him money for a legal defense that he used to pay off debts he acquired before 2/26/12. But I do agree that he’s not exceptional. He didn’t pull off the potted palm con too well.

          • I accept your friendly amendment. He’s a small time con artist and violent criminal who belongs in prison.

          • Xena says:

            🙂 Yep. In jail for life.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Nope, he’s not a confidence man either. A con man would not be so far behind in his bills. Anyone can put up a website and sit back and hope that money comes in. The money that came into his account, had nothing to do with anything GZ did, it had everything to do with how the media characterized him, in their effort to pull sensational strings to get eyeballs. Had they treated the story in an ordinary manner, hardly a dime would have come in. But, they decided to sensationalize the racial issue and that’s when the bucks came rolling in. GZ tried to tamp down the racial issues and revealed that he wasn’t a white man and pow, the cash flow stopped dead.

            Had GZ not been as abysmally stupid as he is, he would probably have way over 2 million dollars by now. But he’s way to stupid to be able to draw breath without a 7 year course on breathing. Even then I’m not sure he passed. He probably couldn’t figure out how to get himself wet in a storm. He fails all the time, because he doesn’t realize he’s stupid. I’ve met people who were stupid, but they were smart enough to know it, so they were able to compensate for it and succeed. GZ can’t succeed until he understands his failings, only then can he compensate for them. But, that will never happen because he has too much false pride, and as you know pride goeth before the fall. GZ is about to take his fall.

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie Starr. Wow Lonnie! You’re preaching tonight!

            GZ is about to take his fall.

            Let it be unto him according to thy word.

          • Yes, indeed he is about to take a berry berry beeg fall.

    • YvetteEU says:

      Yeah Diva, when I see those idiotic comments from them , my BP goes up like rocket. The new thing is, that they took scraping only from one fingernail of each hand. I’m like WTF? And they didn’t wrapped his hands,to prevent the rain to wash the blood off. UGH…psychos. LOL

      • Kelly Payne says:

        By time the incident happened the rain had stopped.

      • seallison says:

        How could rain wash blood away – especially when his hands were under his body. Blood does not wash away too easily – except from Fogen. Pouring down with rain and he appears to be as dry as a bone in the photos. The blood didnt even move when his head was being pounded on concrete, then on wet grass. That Fogen blood just did not budge.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Exactly.

      • Those are ridiculous claims because rain cannot wash away trace amounts of blood and the protocol for cutting and testing fingernail cuttings differs from their claim.

        These people don’t know anything about forensics and do not even try to learn anything. They just make everything up and call everyone a liar who disagrees with them.

        That’s straight out of Andrew Breitbart’s right wing hate machine primer.

        Crazy and stupid is a deadly combination and it’s a wonder anyone pays attention to them. They make a lot of noise but they are never right about anything.

        A good rule to go by is, if they say it, it’s not true.

        The best thing to do is to ignore them because they are not worth listening to.

      • aussie says:

        They never wrapped GZ’s head in plastic either, and the rain didn’t wash the blood off him………..

      • Malisha says:

        To me, the most significant piece of evidence is that Fogen had no defensive wounds on HIS hands. You let a guy punch your nose, throw you to the ground, “mount” you, pummel your face MMA style, smash your head on the pavement a dozen times, and you don’t have a single defensive wound on your hands? How’s that? What are you, a pacifist, a sissy, a coward, a saint, or a Jain? What?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Like everything else GZ says, this too is an obvious lie. We’re just entertaining ourselves by repeating it and wasting our time, theorizing “what if it were true?”. Obviously it isn’t true and it cannot be true. So, something else has to be true and we need to focus on what that could be.

          GZ is a bar bouncer, a “muscle” for hire and a person with a history of violence! He is not afraid to engage total strangers with physical violence. He’s on record for attacking a LEO, without knowing who he was. He could, for example, have been attacking “Rambo” or “Rocky”, he didn’t know and he had no fear that this might be the case! So, then, what fear could he have had, of attacking a tall thin youth? The answer is, much, much less fear, than what he didn’t have, when attacking the stranger who turned out to be a LEO.

          So, in summary, the only reasonable interpretation of the evidence is, Trayvon, who doesn’t engage in combat and does not disrespect adults, was scared and under the control of the vicious, violent and angry GZ, from the time they came close enough to make contact.

          GZ grabbed Trayvon, since Trayvon was afraid of GZ, he would not try to grab GZ, but would try to get beyond GZ’s reach. If they fell to the ground, it was GZ’s doing that put them there. If Trayvon wasn’t pinned down, he would have tried to get up and run. If he didn’t get up and run away, it’s only because GZ prevented it.

          There is no way to suppose that Trayvon was strong enough to prohibit or retard any motion GZ desired to make. There is no way that GZ was not strong enough to prohibit and retard any motion that Trayvon tried to make.

          Martial artists have said that the person yelling is not fighting or has stopped fighting. While a person with a firearm has no reason to stop fighting and yell. Because, it is the purpose of the firearm to provide an offense or defense depending.

          GZ is never confronted by TM with any weapon. TM never attempts to interfere with GZ’s actions, except to try to get away. Trayvon fails to get away from GZ and GZ decides to aim and fire his weapon. The shot taken reveals that GZ was holding TM with one hand, while he was operating his weapon with the other. That means that TM was not putting up any resistance at all, while GZ was taking aim and firing his weapon. Because, if TM was putting up any effective resistance at all, GZ could not have devoted one hand to holding onto Trayvon’s clothing. He would have needed that hand for defense.

          Conclusion: GZ fired his weapon into the heart and lungs of a helpless child who was standing still in terrorized fear for his life.
          As such, GZ should be removed from society as a menace, for as long as the law can provide.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @YvetteU, as stateoftheinternet says, Fogen’s supporters are F’ing IDIOTS! Forrest Gump’s saying comes into play here as well. “stupid is as stupid does”. these are some mighty sick and dangerous people that we are dealing with.

    • Jun says:

      They had to physically clean off Fogenhats’ hands at the scene so what does that tell you about their theory regarding rain washing off dna?

      The fact remains, DNA is incredibly difficult to wash off. With Luminol, even if there was blood that was cleaned up, it still shows up when sprayed with luminol. There was just nothing there to test and to top it off, Trayvon’s body was covered with a canvas to preserve the evidence, so there goes that theory from them

      Here is another story about DNA…

      In Canada, an 11 year old girl got raped and murdered, and her body found a few days after the fact. The CSI immediately gathered swab samples from her vagina as it appeared that it was a sex and violence crime, to help catch the attacker. During that time when this crime occurred, DNA testing was at it’s infancy, so they could not make a profile till 10 years after the crime. Once DNA became advanced they retested the sample for the DNA profile of the suspect. Once they got the DNA profile, they went back to a person they had as a suspect 10 years before, and an undercover cop tailed the suspect until they could get a dna sample to match to the CSI swab from the victim’s vagina. They saw that the suspect smoked a cigarette and put out the butt in an ashtray and the undercover quickly went and grabbed the butt for a dna sample. They got the profile and the suspect tailed by the undercover was tailing the right guy as the samples matched. As you can see in this real tale, even after days of a dead body being out in the environment, they were still able to get DNA samples to catch the killer. They also were able to get DNA sample from simply the suspect touching their lips onto a cigarette butt. Considering how violatile DNA is in that even a small smidgen gets a reading, it proves the Zimmernuts Cult’s theory, ridiculous, regarding the Trayvon case. Blood is hard to wash off and considering the victim was dead, I dont see how Trayvon could have washed blood off his hands, let alone rain drops making any dent in the blood that should have been on Trayvon’s hands, considering the cops showed up 1 minute after the shot so …

      • You’re mixing apples and oranges here.

        Male fraction or sperm DNA begins to degrade or break down in the vaginal vault of a live female after intercourse and can no longer be typed after 24 hours. It can preserve for days or weeks in a dead victim because the rate of degradation slows down as the temperature of the corpse drops. Sperm heads also degrade more slowly than other cells because the nucleus has a relatively impregnable covering (relative to the female’s epithelial cells). In fact, this difference is exploited in the lab by forensic scientists to separate the DNA into a female fraction and a male fraction. They use different chemicals to extract the female fraction and then a stronger chemical that extracts the remaining sperm head DNA from the male.

        In the case you mention, sounds like the lab was using the RFLP method to type the female and male fractions, but they could not get a result because they did not have enough DNA. RFLP means restriction fragment length polymorphism and it required a lot of undegraded DNA to type. This requirement prevented forensic scientists from typing extracted female and male DNA fractions in many cases, such as the one you mention. Same thing happened in the Green River Killer case that I worked on.

        Along came Kary Mullis in the mid 80s and he developed a new typing system that involved using chemicals and bacteria present in high temperature hot springs to mimick cellular division and create more DNA to type. This process is called PCR or the polymerase chain reaction. The FBI Crime Lab later standardized the DNA extraction and typing process using STRs (short tandem repeat) genetic sites. By the end of the 90s, all public and private crime labs were using the same kit to type DNA and that is how the crime lab in the Canadian case you mention and the Washington Patrol State Crime Lab in the GRK case were able to type old and degraded DNA samples and match the male fraction to a suspect.

        The defendant’s supporters do not realize that a complete DNA profile can be developed from the DNA contained in a single white blood cell by using the STR/PCR process (red blood cells do not have a nucleus). In practice, they require more than a single cell to avoid copying a contaminant DNA introduced extraneously into the testing process, but they do not need very much sample.

        As you pointed out, it’s virtually impossible to clean-up blood spatter at a crime scene so that no DNA can be detected. And that is after using water and chemicals in multiple washings to remove all visible traces of blood. Even though the human eye cannot see trace amounts of blood residue, luminol will detect it. Luminol is so sensitive that it can detect the presence of blood in amounts measured in parts per million. If luminol can detect it, PCR certainly will type it.

        Therefore, the argument that rain washed away even invisible trace amounts of blood is ridiculous and not supported in any of the peer reviewed literature.

      • seallison says:

        Wow! Professor – Thank you for the explanation. If any Fogen groupies read this blog (and I know they do from some Twitter comments made now and again) and see this, maybe they will shut up about it.

      • Jun says:

        Actually Freddy, this was in the 80’s, so there really was not any DNA test, just the ABO blood profile test (I think). Then in the 90’s, ten years after the crime, they had advanced DNA profiling, so they retested the sample in the above cold case.

        Lastly…

        For the Zimmernuts people…

        It is basic physics and if you touch something, you will have traces of it. Considering striking blows are hard contact touches, there should be evidence on the alleged assailant’s hands. Seeing that there was no DNA at all from the defendant on the victim’s hands, the victim never struck or attacked the defendant at all. There were no markings on the hand that showcase the hands were used at all for any type of attack. Lastly, the cops showed up about a minute after the killing, and the victim was attended to right away, as well as covered with a canvas to preserve the crime scene evidence. It would take vast amounts of rain pouring down, and time, to have the effect that the Zimmernuts are claiming, and about a minute after the fact of a killing and attention to the victim, means that their theory is false. There is also no evidence of the hands being washed with any rain at all. They also do not test areas when there is nothing to test and the EMT’s had to physically scrub Fogenhats’ hands and Fogenhats even washed his hands himself and scrubbed it to wash his hands. If the defendant had to do physical labor to clean his hands when his hands were in the rain, why is the rain all of a sudden a washing machine only for Trayvon’s hands. It is ridiculous.

  31. seallison says:

    No DNA
    at the end of the day
    he wont get away
    in jail he will stay

  32. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    If there’s no DNA on the hands of Tray…..
    You just cannot allow gz to get Away!

  33. Dave. says:

    Officer Smith transferred 2 pix to his laptop and (the bloody nose pic and one of Trayvon) and eventually turned them in. I’m wondering now if he took others that were deleted. If he was going to take pictures, why just those two?

    • seallison says:

      Wagner says he used the photos taken with his phone to show witnesses when he went door-to-door that night.

      • Aunt Bea says:

        Why would they need a picture to ID GZ? They (Smith) knew who he was and he was alive. Was there a picture of TM to see if anyone knew him?

        If not,
        That says it all…..

      • leander22 says:

        Aunt Bea, you can of course be critical about the explanation he gives, but you would have a much harder task at hand to disprove Wagner’s assertion. I am relying on the critique of a statement I made yesterday by Frederick Leatherman in this context. The critique was well received. 😉

        The problem is his explanation would make sense. Which doesn’t say anything about the photo which, yes, is slightly fishy.

        The problem in this context are Serino versus Wagner. Notice Wagner accompanies Serino to the teacher, if I remember well, at least Serino tells us, Wagner doesn’t. Why didn’t Wagner use his photos there too? Because the teacher was known to be under shock?

        Did Wagner show it to Serino as the lead investigator or didn’t he that night? That’s the core question.

      • Aunt Bea says:

        leander22,
        I do wonder if Serino was aware of the pic(s) that night.
        I know he was aware of it after his interview with the 911 caller who captured the screams. That wasn’t until 2 March. A full week after the event. Long before he lamented about not having any on scene photos…..

    • Dave says:

      Sorry that should have been “Ofc, Wagner”. In his report he states that he took “photos” of the killer. Was that a misstatement or were there others?

  34. Kelly Payne says:

    How could he arrive in response to the shooting at 1900 hours Trayvon wasn’t shot until 1916hours. Why is he lying?

    • seallison says:

      Exactly, you caught that too. I have spent 35 years with the Post Office as a Supervisor trained in Accident Investigation. Reports must be written contemporaneously sometimes using notes taken at the scene. If there are issues with the report, one must maintain those notes for a number of years. At the end of the last line of text, a line is drawn downward to the end of the page to ensure additions are not possible.

      27 days after the fact!!! Cmon.

      • that’s very interesting.
        so you’d think a sure homicide would’ve been handled with a little more diligence than say, a shoplifting.

        and why wouldn’t the police have a camera in their cars? such bullshit. i can’t stand the negligence and indifference of all of these so-called popo.

      • Aunt Bea says:

        Yes, those notes from the scene are “work product” as I understand it. A whole different class of evidence. Tough to get access to, easily altered as the case “matures”.

        Ultimately, lawyers cannot argue facts not in evidence.

        Jurors can only consider evidence before them.

  35. Jun says:

    I still feel the photo is altered but

    even if it is real, it still does not prove the defendant’s story and to be honest, his nose does not look broken, it actually looks fine to me

    • tonydphotog says:

      I agree it looks altered. There are a couple of possible manipulations I’ve noticed, that haven’t been pointed out. The lower lids of his eyes seem stretched, telling me that his face is stretched from that point down. The edge of the right side of his face, when zoomed, looks like someone modified it with the stamp tool in Photoshop.

  36. esentrick says:

    Wow! Impressive LLMPapa!

    If Ofc Smith says he never left the defendant side/alone, how is that Ofc Wagner was able to obtain a pic without his knowledge? Where was Ofc Smith? Is that the reason for Ofc Smith email to Wagner to remind him to submit the “the pic”?

    Also, does anyone know the time, the EMT’s began their assessment of the defendant?

    • seallison says:

      1927 hrs arrived at scene

      • looneydoone says:

        seallison,
        per Incident Report #12-1372 E38 & R38 were on scene a total of 14 minutes
        1937 hrs arrival time (7:37pm)
        1951 hrs available (7:51pm) departed from scene

        Trayvon Martin was attended to first. fogen wasn’t attended to until after Paramedic Michael Brandy declared Trayvon deceased.

    • leander22 says:

      Also, does anyone know the time, the EMT’s began their assessment of the defendant?

      These times are way beyond our grasp. Precise timelines generally. To not go into my basic obsessions, let me give you one odd little item I encountered while trying to establish a more coherent timeline of officers on the scene before official Crime Scene Contamination Log arrival times entries. I compared 1st, 2nd and 7th supplementary discovery data and reports in this context.

      When I discovered the odd little entries below, I gave up in despair:

      Radio ID S202, Anthony Raimondo,

      DIS: 19:20:46
      ENR: 19:20:48
      ARV: 19:20:48

      So Raimondo reports en route the same time he arrives? That’s 7th supplementary discovery page 14. The respective radio IDs are on top of page 12.

      There are a couple of other RadioIDs on that special document that are dispatched and and arrive at the time they report on route or within seconds.

      I would appreciate an expert with insider knowledge, but I just decided maybe I should look at the data anyway more closely in spite of the fact that it is occasionally very, very frustrating.

      Is there a timestamped version of Fogen’s arrival at SPD anyway? I do not think we have the time of his departure from the crime scene and his arrival at SPD either. But we have a time stamped photo of Tracy Martin inside SPD interestingly.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        If you check the log of the nen call s1312 that is Ayala was dispatched to the complex at 7:11:17. Smith or s2711, was dispatched at 7:13:27 in reaction to Zimmerman’s call. Smith signals he is at the complex 7:17:11. As Smith arrives near the
        complex, the 911 calls begin to arrive, and when Smith enters the complex he is now dispatched to W3 address on TTL.
        Dis 7:17:36
        Enr 7:17:37
        Arr 7:17:40
        But before Smith is at w3 address, he is rerouted to respond to one of the calls on RVC. He doesn’t get to the scene until after 7:07:19.

        At 17:19:52 Ayala arrives at the front entrance and is dispatched to an address on RVC. He parks his car next to Smiths car, but fails to log an arrival time.

        Raimondo or s0202 arrives at the front gate and is dispatched to the address on RVC 7:20:46. He asks Smith if he has to go left or right from the front gate. Smith tells him to go left on RVC. Raimondo parks his car at the cut-through on RVC.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        amsterdam, I think you were typing fast and had some # typos.

        [[ “But before Smith is at w3 address, he is rerouted to respond to one of the calls on RVC. He doesn’t get to the scene until after 7:07:19.”( amsterdam) ]]

        [[ “At 17:19:52 Ayala arrives at the front entrance and is dispatched to an address on RVC. He parks his car next to Smiths car, but fails to log an arrival time.” (amsterdam) ]]

        Smith is 7:19:07
        Ayala is 7: 19:52

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        I was watching a rerun of a show on CNN the other night…. I’m sorry I didn’t make note of the shows original air date…. but AC had a woman on…. detective or investigator….not sure exactly her title or qualifications but suffice it to say she was official…. so she has a stack of reports with her that she is referring to when speaking to AC….. they were about the times of that night.

        Her conclusion based on the official police reports and her investigation into travel times from RTL to the police department in addition to the time of death noted in the reports, and the statements of the times of medical attention given to Trayvon…. her conclusion was that according to all that information…. after the paramedics released Fogen from their care and the police transported Fogen to the police department and the time it takes to travel there ….. the paramedics could only have spent 8 minutes treating Fogen….and that in her professional opinion there was not an injury she could think of that was life threatening that could be treated in 8 minutes…. in her opinion Fogen was not even seriously injured much less gravely injured….

        So yes there is a document somewhere that does note the exact time of arrival to the sally port and documented notes of the treatment times…. Unfortunately I am lousy at researching through all the documents and evidence to be much help in finding the document you are asking about….

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        @yahtc
        Yes, you are right.
        It should be 7:19.

        Thanks

      • Malisha says:

        Raimondo was one of the officers involved in the Sherman Ware scandal.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I remember watching the video with time stamps. I believe it was either 7:51 or 7:54 pm. Definitely before 8 pm. I believe I checked google to find the driving distance and time to the police station and that it was about a 10 minute drive, but you can check that again.

        Trayvon was pronounced dead at 7:30 pm. They couldn’t have spend more than 10 minutes on GZ.

      • blushedbrown says:

        @leander22

        Lagging way behind…. so sorry for the late response

        Don’t know if this was answered, but here is what I have

        Leander wrote and asked in part:

        Also, does anyone know the time, the EMT’s began their assessment of the defendant?

        Can be found @ Axiom Amnesia

        Discovery Dump One pages 182 & 183…
        Patient Contact 19:40 (7:40)
        Assessment 19:41 (7:41)

        Available for next call 19:51 (7:51)

        I wrote a post on Shannon’s Blog about this subject,

        Hope this helps….

        http://shannoninmiami.wordpress.com/2012/12/07/blushed-brown-posted-this-video-on-prof-leathermans-blog-yesterday-of-gz/comment-page-1/#comment-40

      • leander22 says:

        Amsterdam, I am fascinated. You already integrated the NEN call log and the EVENT REPORT or logs. Of course you must have done that in connection with the clubhouse light events!

        I am in the process of doing that for myself. I always have to do that for myself to completely have matters sink in.

        Looked at them in combination way maybe CmdID PEU starts to make sense. I hadn’t integrated the NEN call on my sheet yet.

        I am pleased you use a familiar name. It was Mirre or something close before, right?

    • leander22 says:

      Looney beat me to it, I was just working on something else when I realized I must be wrong, we do have times. I am reading the second entry as Fogen leaving the scene in Smith car accompanied by Johnson.

      2nd discovery page, 150

      (R 38) CX SECOND RESCUE AFULLER CADPOSITO N8 02/26/12 19:32:14

      (E38) SCENE LEFT WITH LEA AFULLER CADPOSITO N8 19:51:31

      Wagner’s arrival on scene can be traced via his “trainee”, as he calls him Neil Robertson, Radio ID6024, ARV 19:26:51
      timestamp photo: 19:31:00, assuming this data is unchanged.

      On duty supervisor Stacie McCoy only arrived at 19.41.01 and orders Smith and Johnson to take Fogen to SPD.

      Crime Scene technician Diana Smith, who later takes photos of Fogen at SPD, is the first entry with time given on the crime scene contamination log: 8:03 pm.

      So there is no official camera on scene at this point.

    • Malisha says:

      My guess is that Tim Smith and Wagner (et al. possibly) were busy trying to make everything look OK before Fogen was taken to the station house, because they knew it was going to be a “no bill” killing, but they didn’t think they were going to have to show up with real evidence to support that because they thought:

      (a) The word came from Wolfinger so we will not be challenged;
      (b) Billy Lee is with us on this one;
      (c) This punk is a nobody and therefore nobody will fuss about it;
      (d) If some family shows up and starts fussing we can dig up dirt on them and convince them to keep their mouths shut;
      (e) There’s some blood on our hero anyway so let’s get a flick to back up our side in case there’s some kind of ballyhoo; and
      (f) The HOA is gonna put this guy up as a hero in their next newsletter so we should have some pictures of what he suffered to keep the neighborhood safe.

      When the thing began to turn subtly against them, they held onto the pictures because they knew that there were going to be some questions about them. Why does a 911 response not have an official camera and an official protocol to record the crime-scene? Why did the killer not be required to visit the E.R. at least to collect evidence from him, if not to make sure he was not in need of medical assistance (and cops be blamed later)? Why is the picture so slipshod and taken without proper authentication? Why is this and why not that? They didn’t really want to reveal either one of those photos, and only did so when it appeared that the whole thing, and their whole plan, was going south.

      • leander22 says:

        Malisha, in the last couple of hours I realized it’s stupid to get frustrated. What frustrated me could have a pretty easy explanation. Officers are listening in to airwaves or SPD communications and move on their own accord closer to the crime scene instead of waiting on the other end of town for dispatch..

        I changed my mind. I will look closer at it. I’m in the process of excerpting the data. It surely would be easier to have the precise meaning of the codes but in a way they must be deductible.

        i am off.

      • leander22 says:

        waiting on the other end of town for dispatch..

        of waiting on the other end of town to be officially dispatched. In an other stage of his life Fogen would probably claim they went into a cozy corner in the opposite direction.

        I am off.

      • tinytruthseeker says:

        And add…. why when the officers were calling all over town to locate a fingerprint machine didn’t they also request an official department camera ….. since it is noted in the reports that there was not a camera on the scene ( which is a total BS lie by the way because there ARE official photos taken that night on a digital camera from the police department ) why were they not requesting someone get one there pronto? Surely they all knew photos of the scene would be required….. why not get the official camera and not request Fogen be transported until all the official photo documentation was properly completed?

        Ohhhhhh rightttttt…. because they had already solved this crime…. they didn’t need to follow legal protocol. Black thug kid dead by hands of neighborhood hero! News at 11… oops sorry I meant no news at 11…. we need to keep this one hush hush….

    • esentrick says:

      Thanks everyone for the responses! I was able to locate the time ;19:40-19:41

      http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/05/17/us/trayvon-martin-documents.html

  37. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    My goodness, so much red…..but white pupils (not the red eye camera effect)
    And my, look how the camera’s flash was reflected on gz’s bloody lips to look white between his lips.

  38. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< I confess. I scratched GZs ugly mug just before the picture.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      >^oo^< wow

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Great one, Xena!

      • cielo62 says:

        Xena- you find THE BEST videos ever! Cats don’t like harnesses. They have to be raised to it from kitten hood. Yeah, Pinky is a friend of mine! YOWL!

        Sent from my iPod

      • they should’ve known not to put a leash on a grown cat! he coulda hurt himself!
        and then the crazy lady shaking a cardboard box at him and thinks that’s gonna calm him down?? LOL po thang!

        well, you know he got adopted after all that! people love the crazy ones =^..^=

        • Xena says:

          they should’ve known not to put a leash on a grown cat! he coulda hurt himself!

          Yep. Can you imagine where the cat would have ended up if the leash was longer? I bet that guy will never do that again.

      • seallison says:

        Oh man – When I saw this video I had a flashback. About 5 years ago, when cleaning my brothers garage, I was attacked by a feral cat. Her babies were tucked away in there somewhere but she was relentless. I had puncture wounds all over me especially my hands. A great mother protecting her wee ones. After she weaned the kittens, we took them to the Humane Society for adopting. She was too feral. Still beds down in the garage. But, we feed her now. Just too wild.

        • cielo62 says:

          Seallison- momma cats are great at defending their kittens. Cats older than 3 months cannot be tamed. There was hope with her kittens to be loving indoor cats. Might I suggest Trap-Neuter- Release? Trap her, get her fixed, and return her to your garage. No more kittens and she has shelter and food and she keeps your garage free of pests. A win-win all around!

          Sorry for going OT. TNR is also a passionate interest of mine.

          Sent from my iPod

      • seallison says:

        Thanks cielo62

        There is a wonderful retired lady who has made it her mission to spay & neuter feral cats in the neighbourhood and is able to do it through donations. Yes, we asked her we should do and she took care of it for us. We call her Blackie and she wants for nothing. Loved from a distance is the best we can do.

        • cielo62 says:

          Seallison- thank you for taking my comment in the spirit I meant it! And doubly thank you for caring for one of the smaller of God’s creatures. >^..^< No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted (Aesop).

          Sent from my iPod

      • groans says:

        Sorry, Xena and everyone, but I find this video very sad … a terrified, desperate cat on a leash trying to escape and getting snagged by its neck. Funny? No. No laughing here. 😥

    • you wish!!LOL it was probably a black panther!

  39. Two sides to a story says:

    Certainly speaks for itself! Bravo, LLMPapa!

    • Malisha says:

      These guys’ statements are so contrived and transparent! I can’t believe they are real — they may be different exemplars of one robut programmed by “Clint, the copmaker, Southern Style.”

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