Open Thread for Friday, January 4, 2013

Due to circumstances beyond my control (i.e., unanticipated fires to put out), I was unable to complete and post my article on false confessions.

Manana, God willin’ and the creek don’t rise.

Please continue your discussions here to prevent yesterday’s open thread from getting too long. It’s at 250+ comments currently.

253 Responses to Open Thread for Friday, January 4, 2013

  1. Ya’ll are probably already aware of this…..found it on another site…
    fogens gun was purchased by shelLIE in Nov. ’09

    So it was not even his own weapon….which again brings up the question of whether or not fogens CCW was legit?

    • I have to say I agree with most all comments made here, and am in full support of Trayvon.

      It saddened me though to hear that all his defense fund money (300K) had dried up.

      Me being the charitable person I am (yeah right)…..I went to fogens web site and made a donation.

      Along with being a charitable person….I am also an a$$hole…… 🙂

      I made a donation of $0.02 Thus giving him my 2 cents……and paid with paypal.

      Anyone who deals with paypal knows that right off the top is $0.30 for the transaction and a percentage of the balance (2.93% I believe)

      In any event I had reduced the amount in fogens legal defense fund by $0.28….(he’s now minus 28 cents)

      Antone care to join me in further helping to deplete his defense funds? 🙂

  2. Question?

    fogen claims it was him screaming for help…..

    How is that possible if he was being smothered by Trayvon as he claims? As he claims Trayvon had his hands over his nose AND mouth?

    As a side thought……I would love to see people outside the courthouse Feb. 5th with “HAPPY 18TH. BIRTHDAY TRAYVON”

  3. colin black says:

    Or as our cousins across the pond pronounce it ..
    The S word rhymes with HIT.
    Hope this isnt to O.T to dump here.

  4. colin black says: SUGAR……
    No I dont call myself anything sweet.
    I offten replace SUGAR as an expleative for another word that begins with.. S..

    And rhymes with Rite.

  5. leander22 says:

    (i.e., unanticipated fires to put out)

    Professor, I hope everything is fine, and in case it was on your premises that you are well insured. I once had a fire and it haunted me for years to come. I wake up immediately right in the middle of the night with the slightest fire smell in the air. Happened twice over the decades with fires in my neighborhood.

    • Rachael says:

      I could be wrong, but I think it was a figure of speech and not meant literally.

    • Malisha says:

      Leander, I think “unanticipated fires to put out” is a metaphor for “things happening that I had to take care of immediately.”

      If you were making a joke, I apologize for not picking up on it; I just don’t know how much vernacular English you know.


    • I was speaking metaphorically.

      When I returned home from running some errands, I discovered problems and fights had developed on the blog while I was away regarding some videos that took me awhile to track down and decide what to do about them.

      • leander22 says:

        sorry, as you see I still respond to the word fire. It leaves mental traces. Actually I know the metaphorical use, but it was somehow deeper down the real fire was more on the surface.

        Thanks, Malisha, maybe I was only missing our host around. 🙂

  6. colin black says:

    Aunt B She never mentions seeing blue lights. Sees men with flashlights. Hears the sirens of EMS and then sees the cruisers in front of her house. She deduces the police are on scene when a man puts his hands up. Did all the cruisers arrive stealth? Is that SOP? I would think not after hearing of shot(s) fired.

    Stealth is always the option for police world wide.
    Only ambulances deploy sirens an LE to move traffic out the way.
    Aproaching a crime scene sirens are silanced withing half a mile of destination.

    Bad guys breaking an entering a dwelling or a buisness
    Or up to no good murdering someone
    first thing they do when they hear sirens is flee;So as a rule sirens are kept silent as its an advance warnig to criminals that laws gonna be there soon.

    • Malisha says:

      But when you hear that there is a dangerous fight in progress, use those sirens to cause someone to stop fighting & flee!!

    • Malisha says:

      I mean, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out, “Oh somebody’s screaming help help, we better put on our sirens so the mean ugly vicious savage batterer will stop killing the poor victim and run away!” Does it?

      • Rachael says:

        Possibly in police terms it does not. IDK – besides, if they were en route and almost there. . .

        Anyway, this might help:

        But like I said, where I live, police might turn on lights and sirens on the main roads, but once they enter the neighborhood, they turn them off.

        I was shocked when the house next to me went up in flames and the fire department was right there, but no sirens. Even when the police came to look for the guy who set the fire, no sirens.

        Also, there are a lot of elderly (I live in an over 55 park) where I live and there are always EMS but never any sirens, or if I do hear a siren, I hear it on the main road out front, but not once they turn off the main road or enter the park.

        I know the police have been called many a time to my neighborhood because of domestic disturbances where people are yelling for help – never have heard a siren, ever.

        But I am sure that each city has it’s own codes and rules and perhaps some of it is left up to the discretion of the individual officer.

    • Aunt Bea says:

      There was a shooting!!! At her 2:50 second flashlight man arrives on scene. I just think it was a while before she acknowledges police on scene. We see blue lights in the clubhouse videos at some point. GZ is led away 6:19ish into the call. Many words could have been exchanged in those six minutes.

      She never really describes any one doing CPR, either. At 6:30 she says they are “looking at” him. I imagine a few more lights were on by this time.

  7. Malisha says:

    @ Everyone who weighed in [no pun intended] about the video of the two kids sparring with boxing gloves on in the dark while others shouted stuff at/to them: Can somebody figure out how to submit that video to to give them a crack at deciphering it?

    Thanks. Just an idea. (I’m technologically challenged.)

    • Rachael says:


      But I’m not sure why it really matters. I cannot for the life of me see any more relevance to that video than if we had one of Trayvon ballet dancing. Or playing video games. Or doing any other number of things kids do.

      It has NOTHING to do with the case. It does not portray violence. It does not portray MMA.

      It means nothing and is totally irrelevant.

      • Rachael says:

        I mean it is totally irrelevant no matter who it is.

      • Malisha says:

        They should probably pass a law in Florida that Black youths need to register with the state to carry their fists with them; one never knows when they might start misusing those fists as lethal weapons and try to kill innocent folks looking for addresses.

      • Rachael says:

        LOL – I’m sure those at the outhouse will agree. They are always going on and on about how fists are dangerous weapons so how dare they say Trayvon was unarmed (I think they have bear arms mixed up with bare arms).

        Of ALL the arguments I hear from the outhouse THAT has to be one of the stupidest. I mean if they believe in an individual’s right to own and carry weapons, and if fists are weapons, why would they need guns?

        Are they REALLY that stupid that they don’t understand that arms does not mean anatomic arms (as in fists)? Because anything can be used as a weapon. Should we ban rocks least someone arm themselves with a rock?

        Of course Trayvon was “armed” with fists, as all of us are. But I really cannot believe they don’t understand what “armed” means. Under their definition (since they believe it is WRONG to say Trayvon was unarmed, since he had fists), NO one is EVER unarmed – unless they are a double amputee.

        If I was walking down the street and someone shot me dead and I have no weapon on me, it could not be reported that I was unarmed because I didn’t leave my fists at home. I carry them with me wherever I go – at the end of my “arms.” LOL

        But like you pointed out, it is only BLACK arms/hands/fists that are considered weapons.


        I can’t believe the brilliance that shines from “them.”

      • Jun says:

        It takes years and years of training to make bare hands deadly weapons, which Trayvon had no experience training in or even does not have any experience fighting at all, and to compare it with a gun, obviously the person with the gun has the major advantage…

        But anyways, it is obvious, and pretty much anyone who says a 150 pound scrawny kid with no fighting experience and no weapons (cant even use the fists since there is no deadliness to them) versus an adult male who is a former bouncer who has instigated violence on numerous others including cops, and is also armed with a gun, flashlight, car, knowledge of the area, and weighs 210 or more pounds that night…

        points to the kid as the advantage in combat in the comparison has to be kidding LOL

        Let us say I was there that night for example… I would have a more reasonable fear of the creepy half peruvian stalking the kid in his car than Trayvon, and in fact, Fogenhats would be suspicious to me LOL

        What’s next? The 90 year old Jewish man that lives down the block from me is more deadly than Fogenhats LOL

  8. Aunt Bea says:

    He cannot claim that, after he had control of his weapon, he was unable to retreat, against a person he knew to be unarmed. Nor is ignorance, in spite of all the training and warnings GZ had, any excuse for the law. It’s orange jumpsuit time George!@

    GZ put his thought of a brick/sign(?) in TM’s hand in there. GZ started his making of an eminent attack way back when TM was “checkin’ me out”, hand in waistband, up to no good, etc.

    Any armed individual cannot allow themselves to be blindsided. Don’t let it become “THEE” gun. No rationally thinking individual would “innocently” get themselves in GZ’s “vulnerable” position that night.

    No one.

  9. Lonnie Starr says:

    I need some feedback on how I marked up my map. Is the accuracy a good approximation? Please leave a comment on it, if something is marked wrong. Thanks:

    • Xena says:

      @Lonnie, I can’t say I have the perfect eyes when it comes to maps and a few things I do not know about, such as GZ’s and Burgess’ residences. The rest seems about right.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Thanks for the response, I did a “quick ‘n’ dirty” job of marking it up, so I want to be sure it’s a good approximation of the relevant locations that readers will be interested in.

    • Malisha says:

      That looks perfect to me. Do you want to label the “dog walk” too?

      • Xena says:

        Morning, Malisha. 🙂

      • Malisha says:

        Good morning, Xena.

        After my morning caffeine I’ll blog in. :mrgreen:

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Ooooo, I think I’ll have pancakes with bacon and eggs and a nice large mug of steaming hot coffee. I’m “smoking” one of those electric “cigarettes”, it’s working out nicely, I’ve tried to quit so many times, but being surrounded by smokers has made my efforts a bad joke. But these electric cigarettes, work, I’ve been smoking them for over two weeks now, so it looks like they’re going to work. I got two of them so I can keep on while the other one recharges.

          But, I can see now that I’ll probably never get off them. The habit of having something to puff on is too ingrained, (had my first cigarette back in 49 when they were telling us they were healthy, eh?) At least, from here on, I’m only inhaling flavored steam. 😀
          It’s if anyone is interested.

          • cielo62 says:

            Damn you Lonnie! Now I want a big breakfast like yours!

            My dad was a smoker. I think it’s telling that none of his 4 children ever tried smoking. I wish you success in your battle!

            Sent from my iPod

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Maybe, I’ll do that if I have more corrections to make. I think I’ve got Taaffe’s place wrong, I think it should be further south, before the turn. I should have saved the PSD file, so I’ll have to do it over. So this time I’ll save the PSD layers, then I can reuse it all I want.

        Okay, I’ve got Taaffe’s and the dog walk, anything else?

        Oh, if someone has a list of witnesses and other people by their addresses, I can add them to the do over. I think I’ll put in 1111 RTVC too. I’ve got Burgess, what’s the address of the lady whose laptop he stole? Keep it coming. We might as well have a map that shows all the important locations at the RATL.

      • Rachael says:

        I’m not real good with maps, but you have a really nice page with some good articles!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Thank you, it’s just an evidence pile I started cobbling together when I realized that others would not be able to find all the links in one place. I had hoped someone would join me and help put it in some semblance of order, but google, back then, made it difficult to assign co moderators/authors. Now they’ve corrected that, but, now people know where to find what they’re looking for, so it does no good to move things around and waste what they’ve learned.

          I wish some of these programmers would learn that and not change their whole program with each new release. It’s vexing to have to relearn a program you were already using for years. It’s why they often lose out to newer programs that are simpler, because so few really need all the bells and whistles they devise. Better they just give users the option to install new feather, than a whole new re-write that has to be relearned. We have better things to do with our time than study their new wizz bang program.

        • esentrick says:

          Ditto…I bookmarked the site for future readings. I like where your going with the map Lonnie. Keep up the good work!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I tend to find reading more enjoyable when there are more people working with the evidence and testing various theories. I’ve seen a lot of theories created and fail and, of course, it is the nature of things that fewer theories will succeed than will fail. That doesn’t mean the work was worthless or that theories should not be created.

            After each new discovery in science, hundreds, if not thousands of new theories are created to explain why this or that is so. Only a handful can be even close to the truth, and fewer still can be the truth. But, like mining ore, you’re never going to get all of the ore out of the earth, nor are you going to get all of the impurities out of the ore. But the more effort you put into the refining process, the closer to pure you will get.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Witness 6’s address is 1321 TTL.
        If you click this real estate link and then scroll down, you will come to an interactive map of the Retreat with prices on each townhouse.
        If you click on each of the townhouses, you will discover its exact address.

        When you can’t see all the townhouses in the map, you have to left click with your mouse and hold down that click and then move your mouse to move the picture of the map.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Great, I’ve been using google maps, they’re more generic, I don’t think we’ll be using price/availability data, but it’s nice to know that it’s there. Looks like everyone took a very big hit when the financial markets locked up in 2007, let’s have a big national round of applause for Renquist and the boys who put the deregulator in office.
          Ayn Rand wrote fiction, yet there are people who believe a nation can be run on it. Go figure.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Click to access BurglaryReports.pdf

        This link has the burglary reports.

        • Xena says:

          Yahtc, you might want to be careful with the Wagist site. It’s a White Supremacist site. I don’t even trust discovery documents from that site because they are not above altering/editing.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        From Officer James Blake’s police report 2/7/2012, I discovered that Ransberg had 2 computers in his backpack one of which he claimed was his (which he had purchased the night before) but said the Apple Macbook Pro was NOT his.
        The serial # of the Apple Macbook Pro is WQ022R5PATM
        I did find that serial # matched Tatiana Deamicis computer that she reported stolen and that a police report said was “recovered from Emmanuel Burgess SPD ref #201250000755 ”
        Officer James Blake’s report above is the one where Burgess ran but was apprehended. (the other 3 teens with Burgess did not run).
        Blake says in this report that while Officers Rivera and Hickley were apprehending Burgess, he (Blake) was questioning Ransberg.
        Tatiana Deamicis address is listed as 1540 RVC.

      • Rachael says:

        @Lonnie –

        “The habit of having something to puff on is too ingrained. . .I’m only inhaling flavored steam.”

        I didn’t have an electronic cigarette but of all things, what helped me was a cinnamon stick. It is about the same size as a cigarette and while it didn’t have steam or smoke coming out of it (a sensation I truly missed was exhaling the smoke), but if I had a hot enough cup of coffee or tea on a cold morning and my cinnamon stick in my hand/mouth – okay, it wasn’t the same, but it did help.

        Anyway, congrats and glad you found something that works for you.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I’ve discovered that it wasn’t the smoking so much as having something to do. When I take a drag the tip lights up, much the same as a cigarette would, I’ve even caught myself flicking the ash, even though there is none. So, all that long time smokers really need is a replacement activity that is something like smoking. Then they can let the cigarettes go.

      • leander22 says:

        Malisha, I was puzzled about the “dog walk” exchanges yesterday, but immediately grasped why Xena would want to call them like that. You seemed to have the same position. Hoping you are well.

        Concerning Taaffe’s house, that position looks perfectly correct to me.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yep, just re-checked, it’s spot on. Thanks.

          Okay gang, next up is the witness map and people from other complaints. The witness map has already been done by, I think whonoze, or someone. But, it occurred to me that it might be interesting to have one with GZ’s complaints and those other crime incidents on it, with the witness locals.

    • Xena says:

      @Lonnie. A thought ….. looking at the map, when GZ told dispatch that Trayvon was running towards the back gate, he must have seen him turn to go down the T. If we start on that premise, then it explains why GZ would go to RVC. It was to go around and cut Trayvon off. So, when GZ said “He ran” it was because he didn’t see Trayvon making for the back gate. My bet is that GZ was walking down RVC as he continued talking to Sean.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Okay, but that’s another map. This map is just to show fixed locations inside RATL. Movements and measurements will be another map so keep collecting data for it. I’ll call for that data when I’m ready.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Good map, Lonnie.
      While I was at your site I noticed and played gz’s nen call. For the first time I noticed that the initial consonant of the word following “f…ing” is aspirated.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        In English an initial k or c in a word is aspirated as in kit or cut.
        An initial g in a word is unaspirated as in get.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        That’s what’s making it difficult to put things together now, there are so many versions and often poor quality copies out there, one just doesn’t know which is which anymore. If I find copies better than the ones I remember, I grab them. If anyone knows where, a better copy of what I have is, please let me know. Thanks

    • leander22 says:

      I am with Xena, concerning Fogen’s house. That around the corner the second to last if I remember on the Eastern part of RVC. Burgess address may be close to that, although it does not matter to me much.

    • seallison says:

      Looks good to me.

    • groans says:

      I would just suggest a compass arrow pointing north on each map.

      • blushedbrown says:

        and how about another compass on or by the “T”

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Thanks, I marked north and south with text, it was easier than editing the photo just to add a single item. I’m trying to put together another map that will show how many units there are packed in these small spaces. One get’s a false impression that these houses are pretty spacious, when in fact they’re little more than duplex closets.
        But hey, this is the poor side of town.

        It’s more like a gated ghetto than a gated community. Just a cut above grinding poverty, and thus we see why these invidious distinctions are so necessary for the mental health of occupants, they’ve got to have someone to blame for their lack of status. Young black males make a nifty target.

  10. Fogens next court date is set for Feb. 5th.

    That would have been Trayvons 18th birthday !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Ironic or not?

  11. Xena says:

    Does anyone here know how to email Corey and/or BDLR?

    • Jun says:

      You may need to actually call in. I have emailed them and got no answers back so try calling in on a business day with your inquiry

    • Malisha says:

      It really catches people’s attention nowadays if you actually send them a paper LETTER to their brick-and-mortar address, with a handwritten address on the envelope, and a few actual postage stamps, pretty ones if possible.

      • Xena says:


        It really catches people’s attention nowadays if you actually send them a paper LETTER to their brick-and-mortar address, …

        What I have contains links. It would horrible writing those into a letter that the reader has to type into their browser.

      • Rachael says:

        Perhaps you could type it, put it on a disk and mail the disk?

      • Rachael says:

        And now that I think about it, that might even be better. People have all kinds of filters on their email – if you don’t hear back from them, you will never know if they even got it.

        However, with mail, you can send it with return receipt requested or any other number of ways to know if it was received (by someone anyway).

    • Xena says:

      There you go again LLMPapa — showing GZ up, exposing his lies. Good job!!!

    • Malisha says:

      Fogen never imagined anybody would fact-check him. He never imagined anyone would even doubt his word. After all, Lee was not prepared to do that; Wolfinger was not gonna do that; who was gonna do that to a decent American?

      • Xena says:

        Even when Serino and Singleton “fact checked,” he simply claimed that he didn’t remember. So when presented with the lab report and reminded that he said Trayvon was putting all of his weight on his nose and mouth, GZ will simply say, “Uh. To tell you the truth, I have a bad memory and don’t remember.”

      • Jun says:


        He has been enabled his whole life

        Fogenhats molesting his cousin? The Zimmernuts will call it playing doctor.

        Attempted rape of the cousin? Oh Fogenhats is just being a rascal

        Running with a street gang? Oh no worries, Fogenhats will get someone else to take the fall for him

        Wanting to commit acts of violence against Mexicans? Fogenhats says it is the mexican people’s fault

        Beat up a woman at his job as a bouncer for no reason? Fogenhats says that was self defense too

        Beat up his ex? Another claim of self defense it seems

        It goes on and on, with excuses and blaming others

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Jun, I agree with you that he has been enabled all of his life and, his lying father did him no favors by always getting his FAT @$$ out of trouble. now he, his family and his sick supporters are talking smack about the parenting that Trayvon received from his parents.

        Trayvon’s upbringing was a hell of a lot *better* than Fogen’s. they have resorted to slandering Tracy and Sybrina when they know nothing about them. Fogen and his family have done about as much damage to this country, as the 9/11 terrorist did. that shot which he fired at Trayvon, was definitely heard around the world and, the world responded by signing that petition. LaRaza has even frowned on Fogen’s actions and LE refusal to arrest him. THE WORLD IS WATCHING!

      • Jun says:


        What is LaRaza?

        I googled it and all it came up with is that Mexicans use it to mean “the people”

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @Jun LaRaza as a group is like the hispanic version of the NAACP. Pretty much GZ’s only support is coming from the anglo saxon variety. I remember pretty early on another group like LaRaza had said they stand with Trayvon’s family and the quest for justice, making it clear that just because GZ was one of them did NOT mean he got automatic backing. Says a lot when “your own” aren’t buying your story.

      • Malisha says:

        You know, enabling someone does them no favors. Had OJ been nailed, and hard, for spousal abuse, his career might have taken a hit but he probably would have come out totally better in the end.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          He wasn’t “nailed hard for spousal abuse” because there was none. only in Marsha Clark’s mind. OJ was neither possessive nor jealous. He knew, for example, that Nicole was lending out the jaguar he loaned her, to drug dealing trash like Goldman. He knew she was running with Faye Resnick, and he came to visit at Gretna Green, to find her having sex on the couch, in front of a big bay window, with the kids up stairs. He admonished her for it, he was very disappointed in her, and she yelled back at him.

          If OJ had wanted to hurt Nicole, he had much better ways to do it, she was out of money and had no connections at all. He could have simply taken his car back and took her to court for the custody of the kids. Just her having Faye Resnick around the house freebasing, would have been more than enough to win custody and she could have done nothing at all to stop him. Try living in Hollywood without a car! But suddenly Faye Resnick does something they haven’t been able to get her to do for years, she stops freebasing and check herself into a treatment program, which takes her out of Nicole’s house just days before she is killed.

          Oh yeah, IIRC, OJ left her some flowers and candy, Marsha Clarke and company tried to use that as evidence of spousal abuse. Egad!
          Where they reaching or what?

    • Rachael says:

      Thank you!!!! Damn your good!

      • Malisha says:

        One of the few times grammar matters — I’ll take the liberty of correcting that to say: “Damn, you’re good!”

      • Rachael says:

        OMG, thanks. I can’t believe I did that, considering it is one of my all time pet peeves!!!

        I don’t know how to make an embarrassed face on here, but if I did, I would, because I am.

      • Malisha says:

        I want to point out two things.

        First, the comments got all shuffled, and Rachael’s “Damn, you’re good” belonged to LLMPapa, not to me.

        But also, here’s how to do the embarrassed face, not that you need to:

        You type a space
        Then you type a colon
        Then without any more space you type oops
        (just like that, o, o, p, s, no space
        Then you type another colon
        Then you type another space

        and it comes out like this: 😳

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:


      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks Malisha! I did it!

    • Malisha says:

      The strange thing about Fogen’s whole set of screamers is that even if you didn’t do careful forensics, they are unbelievable in the extreme! He’d have Trayvon slinking around with “something in his hands” (a bag?) looking sinister as Hell so that you have to hear “dahn da dahn dahn” playing, and you have him disappearing into the “darkness” and then “emerging from the darkness” to circle the car for Krissake, and then you have him again “skipping” [but not from fear] into the “darkness again” while innocent Fogen goes looking for [a street name][an address][the Holy Grail][the truth that is always the quest of a decent American][or something]. Then you have Trayvon “again emerg[ing] from the darkness” and saying (and here it gets really good):

      “What’s your fucking problem, Homie?”
      But in the second interview this drops down to:
      “What’s your fucking problem?”

      Either way, you then have Fogen taken aback (why? He just said, “Oh shit, I don’t want to give my whole address; I don’t know where the kid is” and he says, “I don’t have a problem” or even, “I don’t have a problem, man.”

      Sound believable yet?

      Then you have Fogen looking down at his pockets in confusion because he cannot find his cell phone. Sound believable?

      Then you have Trayvon putting the clincher on this clever dialogue, by concluding: “Well now you have a problem” or, even, “You’ve got a problem now.”

      Whereupon nose-punch, either ass-fall or tiger-swat stumble [“Yeah yeah, do the tiger-swat stumble with me, yeah yeah”] and then ass-fall, and then suddenly the nose-punch has caused paralysis of Fogen’s arms, hands, elbows and shoulders until the said victimized Hispanic’s memory returns.

      Whereupon punch punch help help punch head-smash head-smash and then smother smother “Shut the fuck UP!”

      The smother is of particular interest. Apparently Trayvon had watched too much TV and believed a half dozen face punches and a “several” of head-smashes would have killed Fogen because white Hispanics die so easily on TV. But this particular white Hispanic was having a hard time dying so then Trayvon figured he’d better smother the mother. [With Black thugs, you know, you’ve just GOT to rhyme.] So he takes a calculated risk. He uses BOTH his hands for the smothering attempt. He puts one of his thug-hands on the decent-American (broken) nose and another one of his thug-hands on the decent American (wounded but still honest) lips and he presses with all his weight. No concern for the fact that this might give Fogen an opportunity to take one of his octapussy hands and jab hard into the thug’s solar plexus; no matter that this might give Fogen the chance to BITE his thuggy hand and hurt him so much that Fogen gains advantage, none of that. He means to smother the mother so he tries the old two-handed smother well known in the ghetto. But even that doesn’t seem to work because Fogen is still shimmying.

      “Damn, these white Hispanics are so hard to kill! Why didn’t I just lurk a little longer until a REAL white came along so I didn’t have to exhaust myself making today’s unprovoked senseless murder quota? I shoulda bought five-hour energy instead’a iced tea.”

      While all this is going on, Fogen’s jacket rides up. Now there is a wardrobe fail to deal with and you know how those Black Punks pay attention to wardrobe fails, right? He looks down and Fogen “feels like” he sees the concealed weapon. [Hey, how can that a55hole see through his own left thigh?] Clumsily Trayvon takes his right hand off Fogen’s nose or his left hand off Fogen’s mouth, or else he takes his left hand off Fogen’s nose or his right hand off Fogen’s mouth. And there, we realize that it’s all Trayvon’s fault for not paying attention in his human anatomy course. (See? HE WAS NOT a good student and he would never have amounted to anything!)

      Trayvon does not remember that when you take right or left hand off nose or mouth, the other guy’s hands and arms return! I pity the poo!

      Trayvon hand slides down Fogenchest and paralysis magically vanishes from Fogen’s upper body as he hears the assurance [Fogen’s own word choice] by Trayvon that he was gonna die that night. Verbatim: “You’re gonna die tonight motherfucker.” Hmmm. This was the second thing Trayvon hadn’t counted on. Upon being assured that he was about to be killed, Fogen was able to regain not only the use of his hands and arms, but his memory too!

      He remembered he had his gun!

      Wow, how wrong can one punk be when killing a white Hispanic? I can count up seven big mistakes in just this one little attempted murder! If those a55holes are gonna take this country over, they better get more skills!

      Meanwhile, the pain is excruciating because Trayvon is leaning all his weight on Fogen’s broken nose, and pain is a magnificent truth-finder. Our torturors know that.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Two major problems for GZ’s little story:

        1. Trayvon is not an experienced killer or fighter.

        2. Trayvon has never operated a gun, knows nothing about guns or how to handle them. If there wasn’t more to it than simply pointing and pulling the trigger, then why all the lessons and training?

        That’s on top of the fact that Trayvon has no way to see the weapon, and the fact that the law doesn’t recognize TM going for a gun, that GZ brought to the fight, as a justification for killing in self defense or SYG purposes. Under the law, GZ’s only duty, once he gained control of his weapon, was to retreat!

        He cannot claim that, after he had control of his weapon, he was unable to retreat, against a person he knew to be unarmed. Nor is ignorance, in spite of all the training and warnings GZ had, any excuse for the law. It’s orange jumpsuit time George!

      • Rachael says:

        My statement here is not all that sophisticated, because I don’t know about duty to retreat and all that – but I do know that when Trayvon was screaming, he was begging – but GZ shot him anyway. To me, that is murder 1.

        It seems GZ had enough control over the situation while Trayvon was begging (or Trayvon wouldn’t be crying and begging in the first place), and as far as I know, begging is not committing an act of forcible felony, but GZ still shot him.

      • Mary Davis says:

        @ Malisha. Please stop it. You’re killing me.

    • leander22 says:

      Thanks LLM Papa, I am always pleased if you use music that does not force me through to use the Expat Shield. 😉

      I still find the little blood spot on the tip of the nose, Malisha picked out with a funny term I forget somehow odd. I have absolutely no idea how it could get there.

      F**k that his hands weren’t examined. Has anyone asked Fire and Rescue the question if he had blood on his hand. In any case he washed his hand at SPD.

    • Operacarla says:

      LLMPapa..I am a huge fan! I was wondering if you remember the part in the Hannity interview where Hannity asks fogen why Trayvon was holding his hand over fogen’s nose and mouth and fogen replied something like ” he was trying to silence me because one of the investigators already told me that Trayvon knew that I wwas in contact witht he police”?!?!?! Who do you think he was referring to? Thanks for all of the great work!!

  12. Xena says:

    O’Mara says that GZ is “absolutely broke” and “needs money for good defense and cant come up with it.”

    I suppose that leaves GZ in a position where O’Mara cannot provide a “good defense.”

    • Jun says:

      Kim Dot Com had money out the Ying Yang and he went to prison, so…

      so much for that silly argument that Omara needs money for a proper defense…

      Fogenhats is just guilty… his only hope if a corrupt jury, because at most is a hung jury

      • Xena says:

        @Jun. Did you read the comment to that article?

        I get the impression from O’Mara saying that GZ doesn’t have money for a good defense to mean that GZ wasted money in discovery to this point. O’Mara has gone on fishing expeditions, and that’s okay. Discovery can be a fishing expedition, but he has come up empty handed.

        Fogenhats is just guilty… his only hope if a corrupt jury, because at most is a hung jury

        But it sounds like he may not get to trial because O’Mara cannot provide him with a “good defense.” It may be the short-cut version of saying there is no good defense so it’s time to agree to a plea deal.

        • cielo62 says:

          Xena- honestly. You KNOW the prosecution is NOT going to offer GZ a plea deal. It is not an automatic thing.

          Sent from my iPod

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            The prosecution has a slam dunk, high profile case, where the defense has not a leg to stand on and the police are accused of muddying things up. Why in the world would they not simply go forward and take the big win? Instead, some are theorizing that, the prosecution will put their tails between their legs and duck out?
            Where’s the percentage in that? They’ll look even worse, if they do that and then Justice comes for the crooked cops and/or officials.

            That would be like playing all season to win the Super Bowl, then with one point down and 10 minutes on the clock, just sitting back and letting the clock run out.

          • Xena says:

            Xena- honestly. You KNOW the prosecution is NOT going to offer GZ a plea deal. It is not an automatic thing.

            You know, Cielo, the professor gave us a good dose of reality about jurors, and I’ve been thinking — that reality is true for both sides in this case. GZ is not looking at 5 yrs, rather, he’s looking at life in prison. There’s also the federal investigation and I suspect it involves much more than the public realizes or knows about. O’Mara needs to sit with GZ and give him a dose of reality too.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena- true. GZ has been hiding from reality most of his life. My point is that I don’t think there is any reason for the prosecution to even OFFER a plea deal. My understanding is that plea deals are offered in cases where the evidence is “iffy”. This case seems to be strong. I would be surprised and disappointed if there did offer anything.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            My understanding is that plea deals are offered in cases where the evidence is “iffy”.

            Not always. Prosecutors can also look at the time involved, their work load, and judicial economy. Think about Marissa Alexander. Corey offered her (IIRC) 3 yrs. Alexander rejected the offer and went to trial, was found guilty and sentenced to a statutory 20 yrs. I will have to believe that Corey knew the case was not iffy and, she was correct.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Just finished reading on a few pro Z blogs. They’re basically trying to ignore the situation and conditions that provide the context for what GZ was doing that night.

            Sure, “Good neighbors” watch out for each other, keep an eye on suspicious characters etc.,

            The problem is, they don’t do it by physically following a suspect, alone, in the rain and on dark empty streets, where the only people present are themselves and the person they’re following.

            Those are the aspects that made GZ a standout to TM, and those are exactly the conditions that would provoke fear in anyone subjected to that.

            They try to pretend that they would not fear being followed alone in the dark on a rainy night! That they would be perfectly at ease, to find someone paying close attention, and who continues to appear behind them, drawing closer and closer. A person who appears to be bigger, heavier, stronger and who gives no sign as to what his intentions are.

            Anyone who doesn’t believe such behavior is fearful and offensive, needs to try following an undercover policeman and reference the results. They, probably won’t get beaten or harmed, until they refuse to identify themselves and explain what they are doing. And police officers have way more skill, experience and resources than a 17 year old with candy. Yet, even they will be moved to react and perhaps violently.

          • Xena says:


            Those are the aspects that made GZ a standout to TM, and those are exactly the conditions that would provoke fear in anyone subjected to that.

            GZ’s supporters never think from Trayvon’s point of view unless it’s according to their bigoted prejudice.

            What would GZ look like following anyone slowly while in a truck on his cell phone? A drug pusher? A gang banger? A skinhead? A robber?

            I would run from him too.

      • Jun says:

        Well Fogenhats did waste his money

        and in fact,

        he never really needed that fund because your defense is paid for by the state anyways if you can not afford one so that you get a fair trial


        he chose to setup a defense fund and lie to the court and law enforcement regarding it, including hiding his passport, then spent a good majority of the money on pointless issues


        part of it was Omara’s fault for listening to those Conservative Treefort folks, which led him nowhere

        and Omara is refusing to give up the defense fund so he can’t claim indigence to the state to get paid…

        He also did not have to bail Fogenhats out, but Omara did with 100K…

        what it signifies to me is Omara is upset that he is not gonna get paid I feel

        Fogenhats does not need to go into hiding and in fact, most media sources know where he is, and Junior publicly broadcasts where he is all the time…

        and it all boils down to Fogenhats deciding to stalk a black kid because he felt the kid was suspicious for inane reasons

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Jun & Xena, the POS set up his defense fund and the real clincher is the fact that he hadn’t been charged with anything at that time. he took a bunch of fools for a pony ride if you ask me. who else but a scam artist sets up a defense fund for themselves, especially when they had not been charged with a crime at the time the donation site was set up.

        his donation fund was only for him to pay off his overdue bills as well as to buy another computer, new smart phones and what ever else their little hearts desired. with that said, those who donated are still struggling to pay their own bills and keep food on their table while the POS and ShelLie are getting FATTER eating steaks, steaks and more steaks. I’m ready for him to be put away already!

        • Xena says:


          @Jun & Xena, the POS set up his defense fund and the real clincher is the fact that he hadn’t been charged with anything at that time. he took a bunch of fools for a pony ride if you ask me.

          Oh YES!!! Had he not been arrested, he would be debt free with money left over. I think that some if not most of his original financial donors bailed after they saw how he spent the money and then lied about what remained.

      • Xena…..What??? You mean to say that the Outhouse isn’t going to have, at the very least, a bake-sale fundraiser for their hero?? lol

        • Xena says:

          @grey winter sky

          Xena…..What??? You mean to say that the Outhouse isn’t going to have, at the very least, a bake-sale fundraiser for their hero?? lol

          Hey, I saw where someone tried selling buttons — don’t remember now if it was eBay or Amazon, but it closed after a month or so. No sales I suppose. (shrug) All those supporters, but none own companies to give GZ and SheLIE jobs.

          Oh yeah, the treeslum must know a church that will hold a bake-sale fund raiser for GZ, don’t yah think. (wink, wink)

      • Jun says:

        Not saying it is impossible

        But hard headed bigot racists with no reasonability would not have a high success rate in business

        Business is about serving masses with a product that has quality and value and is pleasant for people to spend money and buy it

        His fans kind of expect people to bow down to them as if they are a massah, so I do not see how people like that could make any sales

      • leander22 says:

        I meant:

        and “I” would or more generally it would be” naive to not consider that some blacks hate whites, and that could be the reason it happened.

      • Jun says:

        I’d offer a plea deal, personally. I’d ask for 30 or 35 years for murder 2 with a firearm. My reason is to save any more suffering for the victim and his family. Otherwise, I am asking for life, and passing on everything to the feds also on top, for making the family and victim suffer even more. But that is just me, if I was the state.

    • leander22 says:

      “I’m frustrated that he lives in hiding, he’s absolutely broke, needs money for good defense and cant come up with it,” O’Mara said. “And he’s being put upon by a prosecutor whose come out here and yelling about publicity.”

      One of the things that startled me early was, an ardent pro-Zimmerman supporter stating in a comment on his blog that there would be plenty of money available for defense. The guy is a former high military intelligence man. I was absolutely shocked about this statement and responded accordingly.

      Maybe it is true, maybe it is an attempt to create sympathy for Fogen. I know for sure that this man’s position towards the case has not changed. It’s based on “some blacks hate whites”, and would be naive to not consider this. He is also an NRA member for live, loves the gun Keltec George used, maybe not exactly the same, but consider: NRA and ALEC would surely find ways to fund via indirect channels via some legal expertise.

      In other words I don’t take that statement at face value.

      The money for defense he is alluding to obviously means experts. But these experts could be easily funded by someone else. Maybe it’s only public relations to find some. Or even some that offer to work for free.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I don’t see how any experts are going to help GZ, since it’s his own words that can’t be believed, because he impeaches himself. After impeaching his own testimony, what can an expert do? Offer an alternative theory? That would conflict with the many alternative statements that GZ has already made.

        First GZ said it happened one way, and the evidence refutes that. Then he said it happened another way, and the evidence and his first claims refute that. Then the witnesses refute his other claims, and then… GZ goes into court and provides an exhibition of himself and his wife telling baldfaced lies to the court, with straight faces yet.

        Any expert worth is salt would flee when he heard the name Zimmerman! GZ has already ruined everything for everyone he knows, or who claims to support him. I fail to see anyone else coming forward to have their own lives ruined as well.

      • Jun says:

        There’s people who are racist in every type of people on the earth… but I dont see how that has anything to do with this case

        but the guy is right that there is money for the defense… he should have just given up the defense fund a long time ago and it would be over and done with and the state would have paid

    • cielo62 says:

      What a hysterical little article! The PROSECUTION is screaming about publicity?! MOM is a joke. A pathetic little joke.

      Sent from my iPod

      • Xena says:


        What a hysterical little article! The PROSECUTION is screaming about publicity?! MOM is a joke. A pathetic little joke.

        My guess is that GZ has criticized O’Mara for not actively raising defense funds, so O’Mara has to get in a pitch whenever he is before the media. But, GZ needs to face reality. He betrayed his original supporters. They did not give him money for him to pay off his pre-Feb. 26th debts and for ShelLIE to make purchases off ITunes. They did not give him money for him to pre-pay cell phone contracts a year in advance, and WiFi contract two years in advance.

        GZ profiled his original financial donors, taking them for granted, apparently believing that $200,000 a month would continue to flow in. Then he sat in court like a potted palm while ShelLIE misrepresented her knowledge of the money.

        But he wants more. Lots more.

    • seallison says:

      He needs alot more than money to come up with a good defence.

    • Malisha says:

      Remember, Fogen had those two bozo attorneys before he was charged. The two attorneys were out saying all kinds of “rhymes with lickety split” about his broken nose and Trayvon’s violent assault and poor Fogen’s decency and mentoring and looking out for Sherman Ware and blah-di-blah blah blah blah blah blah and …

      and then …

      And then they both went silent.
      And then they both quit.
      And when they did so, they said it was because they couldn’t reach their client…
      And then their client apparently thought he could slip away, with a couple of weapons inside a rental car, and he got arrested instead…

      So, now, fast-forward nine months and what do you have?
      O’Mara was out there talkin’ all kinda “rhymes with lickety split” about his client’s broken nose and Trayvon’s MMA attack and poor Fogen’s decency and poverty and blah-di-blah-blah-blah blah blah, and…

      and now…

      And now, the hearing they were gonna have in January is not necessary.

      And now the security firm that was protecting Fogen is not paid and therefore not there any more and …

      Nobody’s naming names. There’s an “independent trustee” who remains nameless. There’s a lot of talk about Fogen not able to get a good defense because no money. There’s …

      Dahn da dahn dahn…

      Is O’Mara about to say he cannot get in touch with his client?

      Curious minds want to know?

      • It appears that fogen is out of touch with reality…..and maybe MOM too……

        Anyone else get the impression that MOM has had his face in the mirror with a straw up his nose too many times?

      • Xena says:

        Is O’Mara about to say he cannot get in touch with his client?

        Curious minds want to know?

        @Malisha, Idk. GZ has to report to the probation officer, and his GPS ankle bracelet keeps track of him. But — his pre-paid cell phone contract expires in April and being “absolutely broke” might prevent him from paying a cell phone bill on a monthly basis. I take that back — would he even qualify for a cell phone contract since by then he will have been unemployed for a year? Oh well, he can get a pre-pay that doesn’t require a contract.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      Mom’s begging for money makes me sick…if there really isn’t any money, then all he has to do is close down the begging site and declare him indigent and the state will pay MOM…just like Baez and Casey.

      This may be a dumb question, but I’m going to ask anyways… can Fogen forfeit his bond and go back to jail? If he could do this, would he get the bond money back and therefore have money for a defense?

      • No, he cannot get the bond premium back ($100,000), no matter what happens.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Thanks professor.

        Well, then I guess he is going to live off of other people through his begging site until the money really is gone, and then declare himself indigent. Obviously, he still has money or he would’ve already done that.

        • Xena says:

          Obviously, he still has money or he would’ve already done that.

          @ChrisNY. GZ has enough money to feed himself and pay for his hotel room. What he doesn’t have money for is additional discovery, expert witnesses and his lawyers. Also, GZ has a hard pill to swallow; i.e., even if he’s acquitted, he has absolutely nothing. He has no house, no job — zilch. His family can’t help him because according to them, they are living like vagabonds.

          So, not only is he financially broke now, but even acquitted, he is still financially broke with a family that’s financially broke and a wife who is looking at 5 yrs in prison.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena- and at the end of the day, it’s all on GZ. The only thing that is stopping GZ is himself and his bad habits. There’s nothing stopping him from getting a job, even now. He is not guilty (yet) so if he could overcome his ego, he could work. I feel no sympathy for him at all.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            There’s nothing stopping him from getting a job, even now. He is not guilty (yet) so if he could overcome his ego, he could work. I feel no sympathy for him at all.

            @Cielo, see, that is what I think when hearing “support.” Years ago I was on the Board of Directors for a vocation school whose motto is “Hands Up, Not Hand Outs.” Support would be asking for a residence in exchange for doing some work, even landscaping. Support is asking for a job. Geez — he could sell Avon online if he wanted to. He has a probation officer. There must be programs to help defendants awaiting trial to find work.

            I noticed that in O’Mara’s motions and arguments for GZ to leave Seminole County, not once did he allege it was to find employment.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena- nope. GZ wants a free pass. A lazy manipulator is all he is now

            Slightly off topic; what do you think a just plea deal would even look like?

            Sent from my iPod

          • I know you didn’t ask me, but I’d offer this deal to the defendant: Plead guilty to murder 2 while armed with a firearm and stipulate to a 30-year sentence. Otherwise, if he goes to trial and is convicted, the State will recommend a life sentence.

          • cielo62 says:

            Thanks Professor! I’d feel 30 years is just. Release @ 60 years old sounds safe. Not as safe as life in prison. But palatable. I highly doubt GZ would accept it. Not even MOM can show him reality.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:


            Slightly off topic; what do you think a just plea deal would even look like?

            25 years without parole. It’s not life without patrol, which the court is most likely to sentence with his conviction.

      • Jun says:

        I dont feel Fogenhats could get a job anyways, as, no one in their right mind would hire him

        Imagine going to the store and Fogenhats is the employee working retail? I would not buy anything from that store anymore because I do not trust Fogenhats and he is a liability

        • cielo62 says:

          Jun- GZ could work at home online. With his experience in insurance, he could work claims online as telecommuter. But gosh! That involves WORK! Better to beg harder, huh GZ?

          Sent from my iPod

      • pat deadder says:

        I don’t believe fogen is broke.people can email him money his email address is on his begging site.I think he is saving money to escape somehow.I don’t think he has the guts to stick around and pay the piper.And if his family is so broke how can wee ze travel around giving interviews.Maybe Omara isn’t getting much money not even convinced of that.

  13. notsureabout law says:

    Were the parents of the boy walking his dog present when he was questioned by the police? Also were they supposed to be there legally? Thank you for your answer in advance.

  14. Aunt Bea says:

    As difficult as it is to do, take another listen to witness 18’s 911 call.
    It is a real time (per recording equipment) play-by-play of appx 13 minutes after the gunshot.

    Pay particular attention at 4:10 on axiomamnesia.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Very upset she says, “I have never SEEN anyone killed.”

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        This emphasizes that Witness 18 DID seen the actual killing.
        Before this night Witness 18 says that she had never been watching anyone being killed.

      • mcave77 says:

        Yes…I do believe w18 saw the actual murder. She says GZ was on top when the gunshot went off during her interviews with Anderson Cooper. GZ supporters keep on stating she only saw GZ on top after the shot but she doesn’t say that and she also does NOT say anything about a difference in appearance of the person on top. It is also interesting that her interview with FDLE has NOT been released yet.

      • Aunt Bea says:

        I guess I am making too much of her “young boy” phrase,huh?
        Where did that phrase come from in her anguish? How did she know, or was she just guessing. She also talks about 2 men wrestling, so where did “young boy” come from? Just ’cause kids play back there? Guess GZ didn’t know that. It’s the “dog walk” to him. Anyplace GZ walks his dog is a dog walk.
        It’s a sidewalk for crying out loud. It happens to have poop deposit stations……Geezy Whiz.

        GZ’s “cut-through” is actually Twin Trees Lane. The address his truck was on was a cut-through and he didn’t know the address.

        She never mentions seeing blue lights. Sees men with flashlights. Hears the sirens of EMS and then sees the cruisers in front of her house. She deduces the police are on scene when a man puts his hands up. Did all the cruisers arrive stealth? Is that SOP? I would think not after hearing of shot(s) fired.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          My guess is, she heard the screams and it’s her subconscious that pegged them for her.

          As far as sirens, they’re for beating traffic, going through red lights and moving traffic out of the way. The silent approach is the policeman’s best bet for capturing criminals when they can use it.
          My guess is they’d probably cut of their sirens as they approached RATL, since there was little to no traffic, and just go with their flashers.

      • leander22 says:

        She also talks about 2 men wrestling, so where did “young boy” come from? Just ’cause kids play back there?

        That will be the argument from defense. And as a matter of fact many may have connected their experience that if there was noise out there it was usually kids playing with their interpretation of what they heard that night.

        But I am not completely sure if it works in her case. When, she says “Oh my God, the boy got shot”, she also sees Trayvon lying on the ground and is alluding to what she sees now.

        The problem with most witnesses is that they only got glimpses of the fight. The core problem with her later statements about hearing a louder, dominant voice and a younger one is that she completely overestimates the time span between these events. She states she returns to her reading and then hears it start again. And the lowest estimate she gives, if I remember correctly is 6 minutes later.

        Jeralyn uses her as evidence that the fight started at the T-section, as Fogen claims, since her house is facing it from the East facing, or basically facing the “cut-through between TTL and RVC”, or Xena’s “dog walk”.

        I seem to remember too, that Fogen refers to TTL as a cut-through, although I do not remember were. Maybe in his earliest interviews with Singleton. If so, it should happen in his narrative around events at the clubhouse.

        • cielo62 says:

          I think the eye witness accounts will be a minor part of the trial. The forensics will put GZ away even without eye witness accounts.

          Sent from my iPod

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            As I said before, there’s only so much that MOM can do, because he needs a witness, who can and will say what he needs them to say, and not have their assertions controverted on cross. Too many witnesses who claim to have seen, things that MOM can use, are unsure of themselves and what they saw, as such, they don’t do MOM any good.

            Worse yet is that what most of MOM’s most useful witnesses, are only going to testify to peripheral issues, not central to the facts that need to be proven. While the evidence is going to clearly assert, to the contrary of anything exculpatory.

            As if that isn’t bad enough, MOM’s best witness cannot be put on the stand, because he has impeached himself, no matter what version he tries to tell, he has iterated another version that impeaches the other versions. That, interspersed with ridiculous claims, to silly to be believed, yet remarkably self serving. You get an unholy mix that will sit as a particularly offensive affront to the jurors intellect. Such that even a racist would likely have much trouble trying to swallow it. Thus, even the type of racist, GZ will be looking for to hang the jury, are few!

            I think GZ’s options are, butter or jelly, or butter and jelly, because for certain his toast!

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Aunt Bea,
      Witness 18 in her CNN interview with Ashleigh Banfield emphasizes that the cry for help WAS from a YOUNG child.

      • Aunt Bea says:

        Any interviews after the fact are tainted somewhat. To hear it on the 911 call was surprising. As if she had gotten a good look earlier.

  15. lets have peace says:

    Was Osterman at one time a member of the sanford PD?

    • No, he was a Deputy of the Seminole County Sheriff’s Department. He was fired for moonlighting as a security guard in violation of department regulations. The individual for whom he was moonlighting turned out to be a con-artist passing himself off as a famous baseball player.

      Life is stranger than fiction.

  16. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    Remember this gz quote from his senior yearbook:
    ” I’m going to Florida to work with my godfather who just bought a $1 million business.”

  17. colin black says:

    Ah hem I have a problem with Colin Black.
    He sounds like such a pompous ass at times.

    PS Please tell me its true that Junior z otherwise known as wee…. z
    Or wheeze cause he is an also weasel.

    Is realy accepting an Invitation to apear on the Young Turks Pod Cast????………Please please be true………

  18. colin black says:

    Ty Flair says:

    January 4, 2013 at 8:05 pm

    We are all here for one mission,an one mission only. That is to put our minds together to get justice for Trayvon. Professor has giving us a place for that. We need to respect each other,an think before we post something. I have a problem with Jun on the way he thinks on some things,but i wil respect him. I just want to get justice for Trayvon family, I know justice will not take there pain away,but it might just ease some of it away

    I have no problems with any posters
    Cant have a problem with words on a pixilated screen
    Lifes to short to take umbrage at other peoples lifestyles
    Use of language an veiwpoints that differ fomy your own
    Life would be mononous if we all thought the same way.

    Jun is a post I always enjoy reading when I see her name author of a post
    An one pothead to another can recognise a kindred spirt/

    Ty Flair I also respect your point of veiw an you state you have a problem with Jun the way he thinks on something.
    You then say you respect him though.

    So If you respect Jun at least give him an inkling of the problem he causes you on his thought process.
    Other wise thats not respect by denying him an opertunity to respond an he may even agree with your critique.

    Like the Professor yesterday pointed out the problems he an other posters had over his defence an explenation of the N word loseing its power by firstly the intended recipitents of the derogatery term
    Takeing ownership an defuseing its venom.So much show like other prvious bid N O NO s are now commompractice
    Prof asked him to desist an like two resonable adults .The concoured with each other

    So you should also talk out your concerns with Jun if not here in a public foroum
    Perhaps in a P M or email
    Otherwise i m o your not showing him respect unless you give him a level playing feild to say his peice.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      I have no problem with Jun, he’s young, and youngsters like to say shocking things, equivalent to a big slap on the back. I scold my more extroverted offspring regularly on the subject (do you know what language kids in middle/high school use in their social media?) and I get the same response as Jun gave. I did fail to find humor in his video clip posted on the other open thread (gay Chinese waiter saying what? 2 young women saying “motherfucker”? A guy with dreds spraying mouth freshener? Huh?) (actually, mouth freshener is funny). Jun, I hope you watch your language.

      As far as Trayvon Martin is concerned, Jun has faithfully reminded us of the defendant’s manifold depraved conduct, just about every day, and it is so manifold that I often forget significant details. Just the regular reminders, and Jun’s legal curiosity, have helped educate me on what has happened. He has been bold in examining everything defendant claimed, right down to the cell phone photo, and he has helped me realize that NOTHING that horrible man claimed can be accepted as is. It ALL has to be questioned.

      So, thanks Jun. I hope for justice for Trayvon Martin’s memory this year, and I hope that what gets uncovered, discerned, recognized, and realized here about his murder is of help to the prosecution.

    • Jun says:


      and if a pothead like me can see through the defendant, it does not say much about him LOL

      I say some dumb things but hey I’m human, I do not expect to be perfect

      Yeah I guess not everyone is gonna find what i posted funny but it was meant to be silly and comedy

      • Dennis says:

        I think if the entire world smoked pot there would be much less hostility and violence toward one another. I smoke and I keep to myself and try to live in harmony with those around me.

        Zimmerman should have been inside his house smoking a joint rather than stalking people to death.

      • leander22 says:

        Jun, I wasn’t as shocked as others here, since there is a difference between words, images and action. I wouldn’t like to judge if it simply expresses the anger we harbor against Fogen’s actions that night, or was a serious threat. It feels a real threat would use pretty different imagery.

        Hell, there may be some out there who would like to take revenge, but since I haven’t much evidence beyond the statements by the Fogen camp or news about a NBP group, I know close to nothing beyond them having threatened revenge, or offered ransom for Fogen’s capture, I don’t remember, I prefer to consider this as an attempt to simply let off steam. Of course I can be mistaken.

        But without doubt the pro-Trayvon camp has to swallow quite a bit of much worse matters from the other side on the issue.

      • leander22 says:

        I’ll look at it again, admittedly I did not watch it closely.

      • Malisha says:

        Dennis, my kid was at university in 1998 and he was smoking a lot of weed and I was aware of it and not too worried. Then he went to a party and saw a guy get drunk and start beating up a young woman the others called “his girlfriend.” My kid and three others intervened, had helluva time restraining the drunk, and called 911, who would not respond. Campus police said, “Take him to the E.R.” so my kid, who had a car, got the others to help him stuff the guy in the back of the car and restrain him on the trip to the E.R. where they forcibly brought him into the hospital. He proceeded to destroy two crash carts and threaten a bunch of people and even hurt one nurse slightly before somebody got control of the situation. The girlfriend showed up at the E.R. shortly thereafter crying and worried about her boyfriend and hoping nobody would hurt him. Then the cops finally showed up. They waited WITH MY KID about two hours and then left without charging anybody with anything.

        My kid spoke to one of the cops as they waited. The cop told him, “I wish the kids would go back to smoking pot and stop all this heavy drinking. When they smoked pot we had these boring Saturday nights at the station house watching TV. Nobody ever so much as popped anyone in the nose or hit on a girl too hard. When the pot went out of style [my kid was shocked to hear that!] this place went to Hell in a handbag.”

        When my kid told me this story, I told him, “Don’t go to any more of those parties; stay home and toke and tell stories and giggle; you’re safer.”

    • leander22 says:

      Takeing ownership an defuseing its venom.

      that sums it up perfectly. I have noticed only the last bit in this discussion, admittedly. Thus I maybe shouldn’t interfere.

      It was obviously about turning an abusive usage into a word of endearment as Jun seems to have written, or a positive usage expressing pride about what or who one is. Signifying something like; some of the people out there may think I am bad/evil since I am black, but let me tell you, I am proud to be black, and so should you be.

      As I understand it, in this type of usage was used among blacks only In other words only blacks could address each other with this meaning. Since obviously they would not want to cuss anybody with the word, since it was what they were themselves.

      As a matter of fact. The meanings of “black” or “niger” (the word’s ultimate Latin origin) are pretty similar. Both ultimately mean black.. The only difference is that one word has Latin roots while the other one (black) has it’s roots in the languages of the Germanic tribes.

      The problem may never have been the word’s meaning but it’s usage by whites as an abusive term.

      • Rachael says:

        Words themselves have no meaning. They are just words, symbols. People and culture determine their meanings and can differ from person to person, culture to culture. So I agree with you that in one culture where a word might mean something is one thing, but when another culture tries to use it, it means something else.

        Language can be a difficult and tricky thing. And intercultural communication can be a difficult and tricky thing. There may be rules, but they are often unwritten and unspoken and unless you are a part of it, you don’t understand it.

        We also live in more than one culture at a time. My son and his friends do use that term as a greeting, term of endearment. However, I am not black, I am not a kid, it is not of my culture. I do not allow it in my house. But I do recognize that it does not mean the same to me as it does to them.

        However, someone else’s blog is a culture too, and deserves the respect of cultural norms.

        Of course, LOL – and this is the trick, defining cultural norms is tricky, perhaps even more so on a blog where people read from all over the world. But even then, it seems (at least to me) that some things are obvious. Like on another blog (the name of which we all know but I won’t mention), their cultural norm seems to be saying hateful things about Trayvon and all of his family. Verbally abusing a dead person and their family, thugifying a child and villainizing his family is a cultural norm I do not understand, nor do I care to.

        And sorry this “essay” is random and probably makes no sense, just stuff rattling in my head before coffee on a cold Saturday morning before doing laundry and studying.

      • seallison says:

        Rachael – Loved your essay. Explained perfectly.

      • leander22 says:

        Words themselves have no meaning. They are just words, symbols. People and culture determine their meanings and can differ from person to person, culture to culture. So I agree with you that in one culture where a word might mean something is one thing, but when another culture tries to use it, it means something else.

        Rachael, sorry, different meaning ub different cultures wasn’t on the top of my head. I am aware I am occasionally not so easy to understand.

        I didn’t want to get into linguistics at all either, or differentiate between words made up by symbols or graphemes,as the smallest meaning or semantical unit.

        But maybe I misunderstood, or read too much between the lines? Would we use words, if they had no meanings?

        What I find interesting in this context is that “the usage/meaning” of a swear word used against a group was turned upside down by them. it was an act of rebellion. It signaled: We won’t let you to define us, we give this word our own meaning.

        Pretty much the same happened in my generation with other the words, e.g. freak. It originally signified a person with strikingly unusual features or behavior, some “subnormal/substandard human being. But in my generation it was turned into a term of endearment too. See Frank Zappa’s Freak Culture:

        Freaking out is a process whereby an individual casts off outmoded and restricted standards of thinking, dress and social etiquette in order to express CREATIVELY his relationship to his environment and the social structure as a whole.

        Matters have shifted not only word wise concerning that period in time. And I wasn’t a fan of all it’s aspects, but I absolutely supported the rebellion against the “normal”, and am very, very suspicious about the ways it is dealt with academically today. Consider I grew up in Germany. There surely was a culture to rebel against.

        A freak was someone that could have never been some Fogen type, quite the opposite. A freak was likely your friend.

        Strictly, you know your kid is no racist, why don’t you simply ask him what his friends and he want to express with it. How old is he anyway?

        He and his friends could be using a similar technique, as we did several decades ago. They could rebel against racists thought out there, they could be using the term to express they consider themselves as members of a larger group of human beings. I don’t know, but if I were you I would be interested in finding out.

        Ask him what it expresses, if he knows how it came into existence and why he and his friend use it. But be very very careful to show interest and not be inquisitorial. I hated it when my father shot questions at me. Show you are curious and give him time to express himself to explain to the extend he understands.

        I am not wanting to convince you to let him use the word in your house. Nothing could be further from my mind. But try to understand what is going on, why they use it, what it means to them.

  19. Judy75201 says:

    Astrology? Really? Nice for fun and games, but …

    Maybe I missed something in the 300+ comments of the previous open thread.

  20. Jun says:

    Who is the man in the white shirt?

    If it was Fogenhats, what happened to the white shirt?

    I am basing this on witness 6, as he said that Fogenhats was wearing white or red

    Anyways… I believe Fogenhats shot Trayvon standing, based on where the shell casing went… The gun he had, the shell expels backwards and over the right shoulder when shot with the right hand, if pointed while standing with the gun parallel to the ground… on the scene the shell casing is south of Trayvon’s body, near the feet, just a few feet or a couple feet from his feet

    • seallison says:

      Being the devils advocate now, the scene was not secured immediately. Witnesses were milling about the scene, conversing with Fogen and Osterman, taking a picture or two. IMO, the location of items at the scene MAY have been moved. They had to use a metal detector to find that bullet casing. This tells me it was not visible sitting atop the grass. Sounds to me like it was walked over earlier.

      • Not likely. I think the cops rolled Trayvon’s body over onto his back, inadvertently concealing the casing, so they could administer CPR.

        Besides the casing is small and could easily slip between blades of grass and be difficult to see. I am not surprised they needed a metal detector to find it.

      • Jun says:

        I dont think so because even you mention that it was difficult to find the bullet casing and even if someone did actually accidentally move it by walking over it, it still does not change the ballistics of the shell casing much, since the casing would have to be south of the body in the first place to be moved

        anyways, there is no evidence of this, and witness 18 saw it from the confrontation forward and she makes no mention of any items being moved, she only noticed the defendant muddling around, fiddling with his head and walking toward the T

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      If Fogen’s jacket was unzipped it could have fallen off of his shoulders during the wrestling, which would give the appearance of a t shirt in the darkness since his undershirt was lighter than his jacket.

      I believe that the guy in the white t shirt seen by witnesses is indeed Fogen.

  21. esentrick says:


  22. seallison says:

    I have followed this case since Day 1 – watching the YouTube videos coming out, reading the papers covering the case, and I found a couple of blogs discussing the case.

    Then the evidence began to come out in discovery and great debate began. We were analysing what became available.

    One thing that has seemed to have fallen by the wayside is white shirt guy. He was a focus of a few theories. A few witnesses brought him up. White shirt guy was even seen on top at one point.

    Has white shirt guy in evidence been dispelled in some way.

    • seallison says:

      I saw a YouTube video once indicating that someone was seen running toward the pool, hopping into a car, and high-tailing out the front entrance.

      Does anyone else think that white shirt guy may be in the phone records or e-mails. Does anyone think that this person (if he exists) has been identified by LE (SPD, FDLE, or FBI) in any analysis.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I don’t know……. but it certainly doesn’t hurt to remember the white shirt comments and the those club house videos.

    • sdunn5 says:

      Hi seallison what did you think of good ole kev and his bleeding shirt statement?

    • seallison says:

      Witness #3 says she had upstairs windows open and heard someone screaming for help, but couldn’t tell who it was. She identifies the voice as a man. She peeked out of her blinds and saw a guy on top with a white t-shirt. She couldn’t make out anything other than the white top.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        What was Jeremy wearing? What was Jon wearing? or John wearing? Or even Austin?

      • seallison says:

        White shirt guy witnesses:

      • seallison says:

        white tee shirt guy

      • seallison says:

        Seen wearing white T-Shirt on foot at 7;30…walks by pool at top from right to left, west to east (having fled scene on foot at 7;18 after shot, apparently walked around lake while waiting for coast to clear). Seen w/reflection off pool across top frame 2:44 – 2:46… then starting car +driving away…

        GZ and accomplice both drove+ met up at the pool/mailbox area approx 7;10pm. Zimmerman first saw Trayvon on west perimeter road about 7;08, then came here, met up with unidentified accomplice +called 911 (can be seen on foot on the phone wearing orange jumper), accomplice is heard on GZ 911 call answering ‘yeah’ after Zimmerman says ‘these assholes always get away approx 7;10)

        The accomplice, reported at the crime scene by multiple witnesses + GZ’s own testimony (straddled on face-down Trayvon just after shot, GZ describes first person on scene as male w/ flashlight who he asks for help). Zimmerman cannot identify him, claiming the ‘stranger’ inexplicably did not speak or help or wait for police…

        Multiple witnesses report both seeing +hearing another participant, wearing a white/light-colored t-shirt. One says he was on top of Trayvon — astonishingly, police verbally dispute/discount this, actually ‘correcting’ the witness.

      • seallison says:

        Published on Jun 29, 2012
        Footage from the R@TL CCV footage of GZ’s accomplice running west from the crime scene to the clubhouse and headed west towards Frank Taaffe’s house.

        You heard it hear first. June 29, 2012. 6:35am/cst. Not CNN, Not MSNBC, not ABC, not CBS, not Global Grind…..Here!!!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Good job putting all the info in one place, seallison.

      • leander22 says:

        Seallison, artists discovered know for centuries, especially visual artists, like painters, that we project all type of imagery into diffuse visual patterns, or arbitrary (that’s probably not the word I want) eg.wood structures come to mind. … The only thing I consider legitimate as far as light movement is concerned are car movements. But strictly we would need to be based on a thorough investigation about who moved a car around the same time from were arriving or leaving RTL. And that would be close to impossible to do with precise time.

        I have the highest respect for anyone that tried to look at the club videos patiently, as Amsterdam or Tchoupi, but I doubt the type of argument can be used as proof, Especially not for a helper theory.

        In the case you give you have to interpret rather short light events as belonging to a flashlight. Considering the first example it could be e.g. a light shortly turned on in a room and immediately be turned off again, or the light of a car passing that “touches” a window pane. It seems somehow square shaped. But I find it hard to get the full-screen view and keep the time constantly visible. And I haven’t looked closely enough admittedly.

        What I agree with, the lady reporting the white t-shirt is highly interesting. She seems to be the only one who mentions colors at all during her call. And that is before she can be influenced by later impressions. All others seem to add colors only after they have been stalking around the scene and taken in later impressions. I am simply not sure what it could mean.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I’ve asked Tchoupi about his analysis, he stands by it! He is certain that if GZ had parked in front of the clubhouse where he says he did, whether lights on or off, his car would be visible in the cctv’s. His conclusion is that no car parked in front of the clubhouse in the allotted time.

          You see, although you can’t identify the exact vehicles that are passing by doing this or that. Each one is discrete! There isn’t so much traffic that one vehicle can be confused with another vehicle, because they come by one at a time, and/or are traveling in different directions.

          Then, you apply the timing. For GZ’s car to be where he says he went, he has only a small window in time to get there. By knowing when he needs to be at the clubhouse, to park at a time, before going around to see Trayvon in the mail shed. His car needs to be moving in the vicinity in that window of time.

          We do see a car maneuvering in the area at the proper time. It is alone, and so we can see the moves it makes. It comes down RTVC west, within two minutes of the start of the NEN call.

          It passes the front gate, from where someone standing in the mail shed could not be seen. So, if GZ was on a trip to the store, this car should have gone out the front gate, because there was no suspicious person to be seen.

          Instead, the truck doesn’t stop near Taaffe’s, where it would have had to stop or at least slow considerably, for GZ to have witnessed what he testifies to having seen there. The truck continues passed FT’s without stopping, goes over to TTL, where a view into the mail shed would be obtained.

          The truck then goes back over to RTVC, towards FT’s, but, before it gets there it turns around and comes back to the mail shed. This time it makes a u turn and positions itself where a good view into the mail shed is to be had, and then the NEN call begins. Confirming that this is his truck, he’s in it and he’s looking at Trayvon in the mail shed and the cctv’s place him there.

          It took Tchoupi hours upon hours of analysis to determine what was being seen and what could be seen. Then using these references, he combined them with the timelines and thus the picture emerged.

          Even before we had the evidence dumps, I believed it to be completely unlikely in the extreme, that GZ would have been able to see Travyon, entering via the cut through by FT’s place, in the manner he had described. Tchoupi’s analysis confirmed it, along with DD’s statement, TM was in the mail shed, before GZ left his garage. The distance from 711 to the mail shed as well as the walking speeds and the time he left 711, all say that he made the mail shed well before 6:54. Which, of course, coincides with the time GZ’s truck appears on the cctv’s coming up RTVC, towards the front gate.

      • leander22 says:

        Lonnie, that’s exactly the type of information I absolutely accept as relevant, even without asking Tchoupi about it. And he has done absolutely amazing work.

        But remember how defense can deal with it. They may state that GZ turned of his lights when he drove in front of the clubhouse. There are quite different statement from RTL witnesses about GZ driving around in his car with either lights turned off or lights on, remember?

        This is what puzzles me occasionally, the best type of research should be done without GZ having access to it. If it is out in the open Team Fogen can prepare themselves for it and develop strategies to deal with it.

        • I disagree.

          I do not believe trial by ambush promotes justice.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Well, I also asked tchoupi about that, he says no way, even without his lights turn on, his truck would have been detected anyway. There’s enough ambient light out there, that anything moving in it will reflect it and create detectable motion. But, GZ’s
          lights weren’t off and no vehicle with lights off came through the area.
          That, plus the timing and the continuity says they’ve captured GZ’s travels. Had there been lots of traffic, then yeah, it could have been pretty confusing. but that wasn’t the case.

      • leander22 says:

        Lonnie, I should have added, even without completely diving deeply into it, I completely trust Tchoupi’s studies.

        In way I liked Amsterdam’s too, who tried to locate GZ with his flashlight wandering around at the clubhouse, and that was more the research or devoted attempts I was alluding to. I spend quite a bit of time to see what he discovered but it was definitively not clear enough to accept his conclusions.

        I watched especially the pool images carefully for the figure he discovers there, but whatever he seems to make out as Fogen standing there could well be related to chairs standing there in combination with light events from car.

        At one point I wondered if Amsterdam’s research into the material and that is quite a job was connected to the fact that one of the flashlights was empty, which could mean it had been used before. Although not necessarily on the same night.

        But fact is Tchoupi convinced me. The only thing that can be studied with these videos are the car related light events. Even whatever Amsterdam suggests is related to a flashlight seems to simply be car light related events.

      • leander22 says:

        I disagree.

        I do not believe trial by ambush promotes justice.

        You are correct of course, Professor, and with this statement help me a lot. 😉

        Obviously whatever one considers an excuse or a lie could simply be the reality. I would prefer a thorough look at matters, the problem I have is that very much evidence from the earliest hours e.g. concerning Fogen will always be missing. No immediate documentation by the Fire and Rescue, no tests on him, no examination of his hands. That’s surely a strategic advantage.

        I guess I am still suffering from the fact that the majority at TalkLeft seemed to take Fogen’s statements at face value. Nothing to see or find beyond them, all the “reliable” witnesses agree he had to defend himself, move on.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        I got together with Tchoupi on BCClist after I put my post together. I was wrong in most of my analysis. What Tchoupi did better than anyone, he wasn’t looking for events to proof a narrative. He just analyzed all the events and documented them. I worked with Tchoupi and Whonoze to use known data points, to find the correct time.
        We know when the first officers arrived, and what route they took. Witnesses were giving their observations about when and where they saw officers and emt arrive. We know where they live, so their eyewitness reports had to also allign with the events. We found out if you are 20 sec off, some events just don’t allign. We knew we had it right within seconds when events we were not trying to allign also fell into place.

        We didn’t make any judgement about GZ’s movements until we had the time right. After that it became very clear what GZ was doing.

        There is no clear evidence that another person was involved. GZ doesn’t park his car in front of the clubhouse. GZ is very focused on the mail area.

        If Trayvon arrived at the mail area at 6:54, there is no way GZ saw him near Taaffe’s. GZ didn’t get to area until about 7:07 pm. There is no way he could’ve seen Trayvon there, unless he was looking for him.

        GZ must have received a tip. I am quite sure it is not Taaffe, and I also don’t think it is Osterman. Six cars past the mail area between 6:54 and 7:07. I think the most likely scenario is that a resident who knew GZ was the NW captain, contacted him.
        If that is the case I suspect prosecution knows about it.

      • leander22 says:

        Thanks for the answer Amsterdam, although it may not reach you anymore. I do not easy to find it back to earlier comments and exchanges. Maybe I should use a special mail-address for follow ups? i have not done that for more than a decade.

        Interesting. For whatever reason I had this peculiar feeling from the very start that Taaffe’s house was means to “anchor” his narrative in a recorded police event.

        I am not fond of the theories of Osterman or Taaffe as helpers on the scene either. I’ll look more closely into the light events on Tchoubi’s site. again.

        I hesitantly started a time line of the SPD perspective, I would like to be able to get a closer grasp of time matter, on a single sheet, and maybe find out the meaning of AAT in the process for instance and other codes under CmdID (command ID? activities).

        Oh, strictly I am also hesitant concerning Wolfinger was on the scene, by the way. That would mean the Event Report (or log) in 7th supplementary discovery, p. 12f was falsified and additionally Serino keeps silent about this fact and manages to have entered a series of entries concerning orders he calls Kelly Jo Hines. That’s one such AAT event. But they seem a rather diverse group on first sight.

    • Malisha says:

      Somebody speculated that white shirt was either Taaffe or Osterman. Osterman was there that night at several points along the way; what was he wearing?

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Someone here months ago pointed out that the bank video of Osterman showed a dark colored shirt.

      • Xena says:

        Osterman wore a black shirt to the bank.

      • leander22 says:

        bank video?
        Triggers nothing in my mind, except a bank video connected to the money transfers, but I have not paid much attention on that one. Thus I may have never understood it’s relevance.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          There’s a bank on Rinehart Road to the east of RATL, I believe it’s MI bank? In any event there appears a person who looks like Mark Osterman in the bank cctv. The SP has collected it and submitted it as evidence via discovery, which means it’s something they might use. What remains is whether the banks records confirm or refute that this was actually MO there at that time. We do know that he shows up on the scene, either before or shortly after the shooting.

          So there’s been a constant welter of speculation about what that information could mean.

          • I do not believe they would have included the ATM video unless it was a person of interest in this case.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            You’ve said that before and I’m still with you on that point. The way MO appears at the scene so soon, and if that is him at the MI bank, he has a branch nearer to where he lives in Lake Mary, some 12 minutes away. Wouldn’t he know better than to come over when GZ does his shopping? After all, they do have cell phones, right? So there’s never a need for inconvenient arrangements, like there were when we had only land lines.

            I think there are some surprises in store.

      • Dennis says:

        Are you sure Malisha isn’t referring to the ATM inside the 7-11. Someone here said that Osterman was inside the 7-11 using the ATM while Martin was inside buying his iced tea and skittles. I did not even look into this but if this is true then it Osterman was definitely involved at some level. I think that Osterman was the one who informed Zimmerman that Martin was entering the neighborhood. If that is so, I don’t know how he is not an accomplice to murder.

      • Tzar says:

        that is not Osterman

    • I think GZ had his jacket off at one point. The teacher said he had on a short sleeve shirt in one of her statements. Somehow, GZ ends up with his jacket zipped up all the way, as if he manipulated it in some way. Really curious if he is actually the white shirt guy.

      • roderick2012 says:

        The white shirt that GZ was wearing that night was long-sleeved.

      • mcave77 says:

        You know…I thought this also but then you have witness 2, (or 1–one of the sisters), looking out immediately after the shot and describing GZ laying on top of TM with a red jacket and you have witness 6 who sees GZ in red during the struggle. There is also witness 14.

      • leander22 says:

        That’s been on my mind too, but it somehow feels unlikely he completely takes it off. And for the witnesses scenario he would have needed to. In the rain?

        I have paid no really big attention to it, it seems it was light gray. But considering light conditions that could be perceived as white.

        Puzzling anyway. In any case the witness is puzzled herself, and that is why I think she is genuine.

      • leander22 says:

        mccave77, I am afraid not. Witness 2 is the witness that saw a chase but none of them described colors. The problem with the chase is that defense will argue it may have been the boy with the dog. I actually think that considering light conditions it wasn’t possible to easily judge colors, some witnesses admit this.

        Witness 2 was out there, if I remember correctly reading, shortly before. If it had happened slightly earlier she may have been able to prevent Trayvon’s dead, since in that case Fogen would have been aware there was a witness watching the whole thing.

      • mcave77 says:

        @leander22 – Witness1 talks about the body she saw immediately after the shot. She says she saw one person lying face down with dark sneakers wearing a red jacket. IMO, this is her describing GZ laying on TM. It is here:

        start at around the 18:00 mark and listen until 21:00.

      • amsterdam1234 says:

        What witness 2 saw lines up with the time and place Austin was watching. I certainly don’t hope the prosecution will use that. they don’t need it. Trayvon was shot 40 ft south of the T. GZ had no business being there unless he was following Trayvon.

        If GZ is not going to testify, the jury will only hear the story about him looking for a street sign in the opening statement. But that is no evidence, and there is no other evidence to back up GZ’s story.

        All they will hear is DD, the nen call and the 911 calls. They will hear evidence that Trayvon went to the 7 eleven, bought wat he said he was going to buy and was killed less than 100 yards from his back door.

        There is no witness that saw the beginning of the altercation. The only witness that heard some of the verbal exchange is w11, and what she heard matches what DD heard.

        W18 was watching when she heard the shot, the person that was on top was the person that got up. She describes GZ as the broad built man.

        Selma was in the kitchen and on her way to the sliding glass door when she heard the shot, she was outside within seconds. She saw GZ on top.

        Mary said GZ said was on top immediately after the shot.

        W12 said the bigger man was on top.

        W6 only watched for about 10 seconds, if you listen to his statement and all the things he couldn’t see because it was to dark, I seriously doubt if it was possible to see any colors at all.

        You can test it. I did. He could see a face but no mouth, he couldn’t tell if the person on top had something on his head. Just try looking at something in a dark room about 15 ft away, if you can see detail like a mouth it is not dark enough. If it is dark enough you can’t see color.

        Same for Austin, he couldn’t have recognized color. The grassy area slopes down from the side walk. He said he saw the back of the person. It is not likely that when Austin was watching, there was only one person on the ground. He probably only saw the person who was on top.

        Both of them were wearing lighter color shirts underneath. I think witnesses saw something popping out, any ones guess what that was, but fact is that 4 witnesses say that during or immediately following the shot GZ was on top.

    • Tzar says:

      Hasn’t been dispelled or forgotten by me. I can only hope that the state is interested in the truth.

  23. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I can’t get over the changes George makes in his various statements.
    With Investigator Singleton on Feb. 26–

    [[[[Zimmerman: He’s mounted on top of me. And I just shot him,
    Singleton: OK
    Zimmerman: and then he falls off and he’s like, Alright. You got it. You got it.
    Singleton: Does he fall to the side and he stays laying on the ground? Or does..
    Zimmerman: I don’t remember.
    Singleton: OK.
    Zimmerman: I, my vision
    Singleton: OK.
    Zimmerman: was blurry and uh…
    Singleton: You didn’t feel him fall towards you? He somehow ended up to one side or the other? Or you don’t know?
    Zimmerman: I don’t remember. He, I think when I shot him, it might have pushed him back. ]]]

    RIGHT THERE within a few seconds, he changes his story.

    Yet the next day, George does not mention Trayvon “falling off and saying ‘You got it’ BUT INSTEAD he says Trayvon SAT UP —

    Feb 27- Reenactment-Part 2:

    [[[ Zimmerman…yes, sir he’s on top of me like this (he demonstrates) and I shot him and I didn’t think I hit him because he sat up and he said, ut, you got me, you got it, you got me]]]

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Do you think that perhaps, when George plays board games, he always finds an excuse to spin or roll the dice again if he doesn’t like the number that shows up? 🙂

  24. Ty Flair says:

    We are all here for one mission,an one mission only. That is to put our minds together to get justice for Trayvon. Professor has giving us a place for that. We need to respect each other,an think before we post something. I have a problem with Jun on the way he thinks on some things,but i wil respect him. I just want to get justice for Trayvon family, I know justice will not take there pain away,but it might just ease some of it away.

  25. colin black says:

    Xena When the Zidiots develop their arguments to demonize Trayvon, they drive in racial profiling. If O’Mara and West dare to try the same at trial, they will also confirm that GZ racially profiled. To the Zidiots, all Blacks look alike. To GZ, all Blacks act the same.

    To be fair to the accussed he suffers from that quite often.
    Its not just the damm natives that all look the same.
    Even the police officers an detectives all blur into one entity.
    He knows he told one of them not sure if was animal vegatible or mineral
    But he told something he was sorry to the parents.
    Not for killing him
    But for there loss.
    And he would have offered to personaly mentored them but his previous attorneys not sure wich ones cause they all tend to blur as well
    Told me that perhaps I shouldnt contact them.
    An it could also have been the Judge that told me not to contact them.
    But you know what?
    Yup you got it Im not sure wich one because they also all seem to blend an blur an look the same to me.As Im not raceist in any shape matter or form
    Im an eqaultiy for all type of guy a tottal missinthorpe I hate everyone even myself.

    • Xena says:

      @Colin Black. Yep. That’s GZ. If one Mexican pulled a knife, then all Mexicans pull knives. And, if one Black man wearing a leather jacket and pajama bottoms was standing at Taaffe’s house when the window was open, then a younger Black male wearing a hoodie was also looking for an open window at Taaffe’s house — in the rain, and the dark, without a flashlight and no vehicle around to make a get-a-way — on a Sunday evening when most folks are home — unless you’re Taaffe, who might be at a bar.

    • Malisha says:

      Good post, good point, Colin B.

      I remember when I was studying the Elizabeth Morgan case, I was looking for data that would enlighten me as to whether Elizabeth Morgan had fabricated the sex abuse allegations made against Eric Foretich by her daughter, whose name at that time was Hillary. It was a big, involved, mess of a case. But in the midst of all the mess, there was a little kernel of information that ended up solving the mystery for me.

      Elizabeth said she observed her three-year-old daughter doing things at home that she thought were indicative of the child having been molested. One such behavior was that the child would insert things into her own vagina and then look up at Elizabeth as if it was a game. A police officer apparently told Elizabeth to take pictures of that so she could document the behavior, and he would put in a request for investigation. So she followed his instructions. The photo shop where she took the film to be developed (this was in the old days, with film and developing) turned her in for kiddie porn and she was investigated for having taken the pictures! When the police came to interrogate HER she said that the officer had instructed her to take the pictures. SHE GAVE HIS NAME AND BADGE NUMBER. He was then questioned and when he was asked whether he told Elizabeth to take the pictures, he said, “I don’t remember.” Nothing was written in his report about photographs.

      Then I absolutely believed Elizabeth Morgan. She could have been a liar but she could NOT have been stupid. If the officer had NOT told her to do that, she would NOT have given his name. She would have said, “I don’t know; it was some police officer but I didn’t take down his name.” Because she named him and HE was the one who “didn’t remember,” I realized she was telling the truth and the police were corrupt.

      By the way, when her daughter grew up, she confirmed her mother’s story exactly.

  26. Xena says:

    Following — after dinner.

  27. MichelleO says:


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