Open Thread for Monday, December 31, 2012

I have a new post up:

Nitty Gritty: Three Questions for Jury to Answer in Trayvon Martin Murder Case

Please use this open thread, if you wish to discuss other matters.

Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fred

95 Responses to Open Thread for Monday, December 31, 2012

  1. compare the location and Judicial Officer between the two Zimmermans.
    if anything this shows like father like stepson and appears Mr.white even 12 years later he’s still a zimmerlover.
    is it that GZ called his pop and went to the same place he went? because sanford can’t have that many police stations.

    filled/location/Judicial Officer Type/Status

    Nanette Moreira Vs. George zimmerman sr
    2/8/1993
    DIV.46 White, Keith F

    Domestic Violence closed-SRS

    Veronica Zuazo Vs. George zimmerman
    8/9/2005
    Div.44
    Jordan, John E.

    Domestic Violence closed-SRS

    Zimmerman George Vs. Veronica Zuazo
    8/10/2005
    DIV.46
    White, Keith F.
    Domestic Violence Closed-SRS

    • leander22 says:

      George zimmerman sr

      George Z, senior? Wouldn’t senior be Robert? Are you sure this is related. Did you choose the wrong name in the first entry?

      • once you name a kid after you with your first name, that’s when you become a senior.

        so papa z, is george zimmerman sr.
        BUT since you brought it up, and i’ve wondered about this myself.
        YES, MOST people name their FIRST born son after them if they are going to name anyone after them. the fact that GZ is named after SR is sorta weird. and this brings me back to who’s the daddy and/or who’s the mommy? there’s lot’s of speculation about who’s the mother of those freaky brothers.

    • looneydoone says:

      Shannon,
      Robert J Sr is the father
      Robert jr….born 1981 (the eldest son, named after RZ Sr)
      George..born 1983 (the youngest son)

      There’s no George Sr in fogen’s immediate/nuclear family

  2. colin black says:

    Thats why many ancient Eygyptian Hyrographs Kartouches have been defaced

    The names an likenesses of the offending personage are removed from history,

    • Malisha says:

      Thanks. I had been meaning to check back on Burgess.

      You can delete it; I know how to get it when I need to review it. I am actually interested in what he might have written to the judge in November 2012. I’ll get a copy. Thanks.

    • leander22 says:

      Thanks, yahtc, this suggests he indeed lived in RTL. I was wondering about that.

    • sdunn5 says:

      yahtc your link is a sham and dangerous my WOT was red screaming get the hell out of here. Arrests.org my ass. The kid remains a juvenile btw love the mugshot and the ability on the page to tag him as “tatted up”, “hottie”, etc…..Frank fricken Taaffe was not a victim of burglary. And Burgess was not arrested for the so-called incident…do some real research before posting links to crap! I am feeling exactly like shannoninmiami absolutely violent about these Z ass hats. I would like to throw holy water on them and see what happens.
      Since Taaffe did his walk through with Marinade Dave it was a weird eye opener. And Marinade Dave is a gentlemen. But Taaffe was a pig of a man, however something can be learned as they walk to RVC and Dave zooms into the house directly across from the cut through there 2860 RVC. He gives out the following information…… but indicates a couple live on the corner of the cut through “they do not”…as Amanda and her husband being outside and saw Z in the patrol car. Asked who the husband was Frank says “just a guy who lives here”, then adds he was the former HOA president. Noah Caraker. I thought it interesting he added in this tidbit. If this is accurate then I can’t see this couple going to TTL, It appears from photo’s that police were all over RVC that night. But then again much has been removed played with and withdrawn from the reports that were out there 7 months ago. Just believe this is worth mentioning.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Here is more info from a poster:

        “On February 2, 2012, Zimmerman placed a call to Sanford police after spotting a young black man he recognized peering into the windows of a neighbor’s empty home, according to several friends and neighbors.

        “On February 6, the home of another Twin Lakes resident, Tatiana Demeacis, was burglarized. Two roofers working directly across the street said they saw two African-American men lingering in the yard at the time of the break-in. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. One of the roofers called police the next day after spotting one of the suspects among a group of male teenagers, three black and one white, on bicycles.

        “Police found Demeacis’s laptop in the backpack of 18-year-old Emmanuel Burgess, police reports show, and charged him with dealing in stolen property. Burgess was the same man Zimmerman had spotted on February 2.

        “Burgess had committed a series of burglaries on the other side of town in 2008 and 2009, pleaded guilty to several, and spent all of 2010 incarcerated in a juvenile facility, his attorney said. He is now in jail on parole violations. “

    • sdunn5 says:

      One last thought Yahtc since you are hot on Burgess’s tail then you know the story of the Spidey backpack that was on Ransberg with stolen laptop 900+pennies etc. right?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Burgess is NOT a juvenile as you asserted above, sdunn.
        Here is the info from the clerk of the Seminole Court:
        .
        .
        Detailed Information for Case 592009CF002646A

        Case Number: 592009CF002646A Judge: ALVA, MARLENE M
        Defendant Name: EMMANUEL BURGESS
        DOB: 07/1993
        .
        .
        .
        sdunn, Emmanuel Burgess was 18 1/2 years old when he was arrested in February 2012.

        • sdunn5 says:

          Well well glad you are on the case Detective. I have been following this nightmare of a case since I heard the 911 call in all it’s glory of Witness 18. The data available last April has changed. But answer THE real question regarding your link to the mugshot and nefarious Arrest.org? No I did not think you would. Do you know who Ransberg is or not? It is a very different police report.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Ransberg should have been arrested also because he was carrying the backpack with Olivia B.’s stolen computer.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Actually, I don’t know if the computer serial numbers of the stolen computer in his backpack match up with those of Olivia’s.

        • sdunn5 says:

          details…..okie dokie. Can I presume you are relying on Police Reports? Where?? The real question I had for you was why provide a link to this bogus mugshot site?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        James Blake’s report.
        .
        I am going to bring your questions to the active article now.
        .
        By the way, I did find that serial # of the stolen computer matched Tatiana Deamicis computer that she reported stolen and that a police report said was “recovered from Emmanuel Burgess SPD ref #201250000755 ”
        .

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Where do you want me to get mugshots of Burgess, sdunn?
        .
        I get the same info from other mugshot sites.

  3. Puck says:

    I’m a lurker, here almost daily, with occasional lapses when I get tired of the case. Can someone tell me how ‘Fogen’ came about? I looked through old comments I might have missed but didn’t find anything, and Google doesn’t tell me anything either. ‘Cheorge’ and ‘schtruck’ I get, having listened to the NEN call far too many times. Thanks!

    • Malisha came up with the name “Fogen,” which is a shortened version of “Let his name be forgotten,” an ancient Egyptian and Hebrew curse to deny a person immortality and/or power over the living. It’s also a way to ward off evil.

      Instead of writing or speaking the defendant’s name, many people have been referring to him as “Fogen.”

  4. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    I actually do not know how to read and understand this court info.

    • Rachael says:

      I’m not understanding why you posted this.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Here is where I picked up this info–
      .Re: Document Dump 7-12-2012 — Zimmerman/Martin Case
      by Puzzler on Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:03 pm

      http://www.seminoleclerk.org/CriminalDocket/case_detail.jsp?CaseNo=592009CF002646A

      Defendant Name: EMMANUEL BURGESS
      DOB: 07/1993

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      I posted this mainly to Malisha to add to her info on Emmanuel Burgess that she earlier posted to us.
      Malisha was looking into which days Emmanuel might have been out on probation, I think.
      .
      I have been reading old blog sites on the internet this morning and came across this info.

      • The docket shows that Burgess was continuously in custody from no later than February 9th through February 26th, the date of the shooting.

        This does not necessarily mean that the defendant knew he was in custody on the date of the shooting. Therefore, there is a theoretical possibility that the defendant thought Trayvon was Burgess.

        I say “theoretical” because he never mentioned Burgess’s name in his statements to the police. He also got a good look at Trayvon, who does not resemble Burgess.

        Burgess also lived in the neighborhood, but I do not know if the defendant knew that.

        • Malisha says:

          That related to a stray theory of mine that I have since abandoned. I was trying to understand all the crime reports turned over by the SPD.

          For some unknown reason, Burgess was listed as a suspect for a burglary in August 2011 but never arrested until after the February 6, 2012 burglary that also listed him as the suspect. I don’t know whether that was just negligence, whether the SPD wanted him to stay out of jail because he was a CI, or what possible other explanation there could have been for that. That is what caused my interest in his whereabouts when the “oh we are in a crime wave” hysteria struck in February 2012.

          Right now my personal belief is that the “February 2012 crime wave hysteria” was related to the fact that Fogen could not pay his March 2012 rent.

          • well i’m glad to finally get to the bottom of that!
            i mean that neighborhood had what 300 home invasions and robberies in only 200 houses? and a burgle a day? thank god they finally got that maniac!!

          • Malisha says:

            They actually had five home-invasion burglaries in 1 year (and this estimate is very liberal, because two of the five did not involve entering a home). Two or three out of the five were attributable to Emmanuel Burgess. This was not a big mystery.

            Oh: CI = “confidential informant.” Police sometimes leave petty criminals on the street so they can get information from them in return for not busting them for crimes they are already aware of. So if a guy has burgled a house, but insurance has covered it, and that guy is helpful to police in solving other, bigger crimes, they might leave him out on the street at least until the statute of limitations for burglary runs out, so they can get information from him. If he knows something and won’t tell, they can bust him. If he DOESN’T know anything but he thinks he may be busted unless he “tells” he might very easily make up a load of bullcrap to keep himself out of jail. It is a nasty system, and poorly managed, and results in all sorts of corruption and misconduct, but it is also handy when something really bad goes down.

            Police in Colorado told me way back when the JonBenet Ramsey case was in the news that they had CIs who were involved in kiddie porn, and they were ALL ABSOLUTELY SILENT AND NOBODY WOULD EVEN MAKE A PEEP, leading the police to believe that the Ramsey family had “crazy powerful connections” and they could NOT be busted no matter what.

            But I want to comment on something I have been thinking about recently: Mental unfitness to STAND trial, as opposed to “not criminally responsible by reason of insanity.” I think O’Mara might try to say that the trial cannot go forward now because Fogen has been so upset by all the brouhaha and the general hatred and air of racism and bad press and lies and terribleness that he is mentally disturbed and unable to cooperate with his defense counsel and thus unable to go to trial. I think this will be a way for O’Mara to buy time and to try to insert major issues into the case so he has something to use later for appeals. Of course, any good evaluation of Fogen will come out with the information that he is simply a liar and a fussbudget, but I’d lay a bet today on the possibility, or even probability, that O’Mara tries this route, at least to gain a little time. The more time it takes to go to trial, the more time Fogen is on the loose and able to try to “progenitate [God forbid]” so there can be a broken-hearted weeping wife and a helpless adowable widdow babykins to sit in the first row during sentencing.

            Just an idea. All the stupid drama in this case so far has led me to wonder what soap opera moves are in store for us next. Just think of the titles of the episodes in this soap:

            1. The misunderstood hero
            2. The violent fiancee
            3. The defense of his friend from the unidentified strangers
            4. The Arab guy who couldn’t take a joke
            5. The crime wave at the Retreat
            6. Weeping Cynthia with the rusty scissors
            7. The friend mourning his dear departed son
            8. The Sheriff’s main man who protected the celebrity
            9. The blushing bride
            10. The vicious dog
            11. The open windows and the guy in pajama bottoms
            12. The real suspicious guy
            13. The unprovoked attack and violent beat-down
            14. The kal-tec rescue
            15. The lie detector and the green walls
            16. The racist mob calling for innocent blood
            17. The racism that destroyed the credibility of the decent American
            18. The cops all upset that a perp was charged
            19. The praying prosecutor
            20. The raggedy fingernails and Peter Pan in the jail cell
            21. The bullet-proof vest and the security forces
            22. Counter-intelligence and the New Black Panthers
            23. The outrage of it all
            24. And now, ladies and gentlemen, the decent American who succumbs, after all that, to a bout of mental illness, making it impossible for him to stand trial

            STAND BY until he feels well enough to be a defendant.
            Oh, and meanwhile, to help in his recovery, take off that nasty ankle bracelet; it is a constant reminder to him of his emotionally traumatic and truly unnecessary confinement.

          • i really hope you’re wrong! but, we know gz’s propensity for pity. it’s obviously contagious cas the whole family has it.
            so that sure isn’t an off the wall idea in his case. as well as any other outrageous tactics. just think of the most despicable things that could said and imagine them saying it. omar is pretty lowdown and dirty enough to try anything!

          • bettykath says:

            Interesting thought. If I were MOM, I’d try to figure out a way to get out of this mess asap. The ditch is already quite deep. He needs to stop digging and look for a ladder.

          • You all have thoughtful comments says:

            Malisha:
            .
            According to “The Sanford Herald – The Crime Report – Feb-12-2-12” , the police found that, when they arrested Emmanuel Burgess, he had “six active warrants”

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            With six active warrants and an out standing burglary charge, it looks more like Burgess was taken into a protective custody of sorts, than as if he were simply being arrested for cause.

            Physically, Burgess, is more of a match with GZ and a better target to boot, since he actually has a criminal record. Thus he’d be a better fit for the invective GZ was using. So, if there was a conspiracy afoot, he was removed from the domain as a possible target, by being jailed… What? In about a month or so in advance of the event? Was Trayvon his replacement target? Things that make you go hmmm.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Professor, if you feel I should not have posted Emmanuel Burgess record here, you should delete it.

      • Given the length of the docket, I think it’s better to quote the relevant information and provide a link to the source. Please do that in the future.

        I summarized what I believe to be the relevant information in my comment, but I do not know what you were specifically interested in, so I did not delete or trim your comment.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Thanks, Professor…..good advice.
      Why don’t you delete it now because the link is at my 10:54 am posting underneath it.

  5. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    from Seminole County Clerk of Courts
    Maryanne Morse, Clerk of Circuit Court

  6. tonydphotog says:

    I’ve been trying to find out more about Wolfinger online, and I’m not sure what to think. Several websites say that Robert Zimmerman is the godfather of Norman Wolfinger’s only son, Robert Wolfinger. And that Wolfinger’s son was named after Robert Zimmerman.

    Anyone know if this is true?

    • seallison says:

      I have read that in a number of places as well. No confirmation though. I thought this would be the conflict of interest.

      The photo of Fogen talking on the phone has led me to believe he was calling his Dad to get him out of his jam. I have thought that Daddy Z called Wolfinger because of the connection to each other because Wolfinger showed up at the scene as fast as he could drive there. Highly, highly unusual to have a State Attorney go to a crime scene and then hold a meeting at the police station during the night.

      • Mirre says:

        Wolfinger went to the Sanford police station. So not to the crime scene. Bill Lee’s name does show up on the crime scene contamination log.

      • looneydoone says:

        Mirre,
        There were at least 3 persons inside the Crime Scene Contamination Area who are unaccounted for in the official CSCA log. They are;
        Officer Timothy Smith (first to arrive on scene)
        Mark Osterman (interacting with SPD and neighbors)
        the “Asian male” (witness #13, the *photographer*)

        The fact Wolfinger’s name doesn’t appear on the log doesn’t exclude the possibility he was at the crime scene (another *oversight* ?)

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks for the names, lonnie.
        Actually, the name Joe Manalo appears on the contamination log with the word “witness” next to his name.

      • Malisha says:

        This would, of course, explain his getting off the case because of “conflict.” It would also explain, of course, why complaints made by RTL residents to the police that they did not want Fogen patrolling with a loaded gun were not just ignored but, if they resulted in writings of any kind, shredded.

    • Malisha says:

      WOW! The GODFATHER! [noises on] da da da da da da da da da da da daaaaaaaaaaaaaa…

      • looneydoone says:

        Malisha,
        We also have to keep the relationship between former Chief Bill Lee and Mark Osterman in mind.

        Unless one has access to church records, we’ll never know about the Godparent angle. I suspect there’s a relationship between papi zee and Wolfinger that dates back to the Pentagon years, but have no concrete evidence. Veteran’s Today site has published some *interesting* articles about this case, and relationships which allowed fogen to walk away from murder charges initially. Bottom line, Wolfinger and Lee are corrupt, and that corruption permeated their department’s policy and procedures.

      • Malisha says:

        I think the FBI can get the information on who is what to whom, on which Wolfingers, which Zimmermans, which others and so forth were in bed together. I think it was a pretty big bed.

    • Malisha says:

      It would explain the “conflict of interests” issue, wouldn’t it?

      I wonder if godfather has done favors for Wolfinger’s son — any coverups there?

  7. Malisha says:

    The more I learn about Wolfinger, the more my impressions of him, gleaned from this one case, the Trayvon Martin murder case, come out seeming absolutely correct. The man is corrupt, sociopathic and powerful. My my what an unusual combination.

    • looneydoone says:

      Malisha,
      Wolfinger was called to the Pentagon/Washington DC immediately following 9/11. Subsequently received a special commendation from none other than former US Atty General Alberto Gonzalez. He was named “DAV of the year 2007”. There’s a bio on the DAV’s official website. Unconfirmed scuttlebutt has it Wolfinger retired a LT Colonel after a career in DOD/Army Intel (despite his being injured 12 May 1969 in a firefight at Quon Loi, Viet Nam……curiously, that’s the same month and year he graduated from FL So College !) Perhaps he went from active duty to career USArmy Reserves?

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      excerpt from a publication called The Deacon’s Bench (April 29, 2012):

      ” Robert Zimmerman Sr. was a U.S. Army veteran who served in Vietnam in 1970, and was stationed at Fort Myer in Arlington, Virginia, in 1975 with Gladys Mesa’s brother George. Zimmerman Sr. also served two tours in Korea, and spent the final 10 years of his 22-year military career in the Pentagon, working for the Department of Defense, a family member said.”

      • Rachael says:

        “…working for the Department of Defense, **a family member said.***”

        Guess it depends on the family member. There was a family member who said they had their associates degree in criminal justice and that his “father is a retired Magistrate Judge for the supreme court (sic) of Virginia.”

        “We then contacted the Virginia Supreme Court to confirm Robert Zimmerman’s employment.

        Kristi Wright with the Department of Legislative and Public Relations wrote us this email in response:

        “Robert J. Zimmerman served as a full-time magistrate from 2000-2006. Please be advised that in Virginia magistrates are judicial officers, but they are not considered “judges” and do not possess trial jurisdiction. More detailed information on the role of the magistrate in Virginia is available on Virginia’s Judicial System Website .”

        Gotta watch what family member say.

        http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/crime/zimmerman-dad-worked-as-magistrate

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Maybe, the magistrate job was after his military career.
        The military career (if it also included Korea would have had to be a 32 year career)

      • Rachael says:

        No, lol, I meant he said he was a magistrate “judge” and he was not a judge, he said he had the degree and he didn’t so depending on who the family member was who said anything…never mind. Happy New Year

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        🙂

      • looneydoone says:

        TAHTC,
        Might that be “uncle” George Mesa/Meza, who’s now known as Uncle Mike (Luis Miguel Meza) the Insurance agent and father of cousin Christina ?? How did George become Mike ?? Or does Gladys/Gladis have 2 brothers that were papi zee’s Army buddies ?

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        George’s middle name is Michael.

      • looneydoone says:

        YAHTC
        I realize the defendant’s name is George Michael
        His uncle (the brother of Gladys/Gladis) is named Luis Miguel Meza (NOT George Meza) so, again…who, and where is “uncle George” ? Additionally, how many young Peruvians were emigrating to the USA in the mid 1970’s to serve in the US military ?? Or was “George Meza” a member of Peru’s Army stationed in Arlington along with papi zee for special training ?
        Raises lots of questions

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Got it.

        Here is the info I have in my notes:

        Gladys Christina Zimmerman’s mother is Christina Mesa(or Meza)

        Gladys has TWO brothers:
        1.George Mesa
        2. Miquel Mesa

    • groans says:

      [OK, folks, I’m way behind – I just can’t keep up with you all!]
      ____________________________________________

      I can’t cite a source at the moment, but I believe we’ve long known that RZ Sr. is a Vietnam Vet (c. 1969-70) and, immediately before his retirement, served in “military intelligence.” (Haven’t we?) But I, personally, don’t recall hearing before now that WOLFINGER, ALSO, is a Vietnam Vet (c. 1969-70) and, immediately before he retired as a Lt. Col., served in “army intelligence.”

      It seems rather obvious to me that they may well have been “connected” through their long military careers, particularly considering that both were involved in military intelligence. If so, that could explain the mysterious and unexplained “conflict” Wolfinger cited when he “removed himself” from the Trayvon Martin case.

      (And, of course, the very troubling part of that would be why he hadn’t identified that conflict long before the Governor eventually got involved!)

  8. seallison says:

    How do you get your pictures to show up in the little box on the top right of your comments. I would like one too.

  9. seallison says:

    If anyone is interested in Norm Wolfinger and his history — your eyes will be opened if you Google:

    Norm Wolfinger Innocence Project.

    Your eyes will be opened and you will learn how a racist in the legal system really operates — even as a defence attorney.

    This guy was bad news for any visible minority.

    • leander22 says:

      Grahase/Seallison, I hope I am not misinformed about your identity, I simply find it hard to give up the old aka I am more used to 😉

      I looked at the Innocence Project and it seems to mainly concern John Preston and his “magic dog”. Now, I don’t have enough patience to look into this more closely, but there may be other “prosecutorial” suspects that don’t want to have too much sunshine on this “expert’s” work. Old boy networks?:

      John Preston

      In 2009, J. Preston Silvernail, chief judge of Florida’s 18th judicial circuit, declined to call a grand jury to investigate the Florida State Attorney’s Office’s hiring of Preston.[12]

      Although yes, Scott Maxwell clearly seems to connect it with Wolfinger as do others.

      Would be interesting to look more closely into the genesis of the professional life of this expert, his background and his specific connections. But I understand to get the innocent out of jail is the more urgent thing to do. Obviously.

    • leander22 says:

      How comes some are able to use two links, while I cannot ever. 😦

      Grahase/Seallison, I find it hard to give up your old aka.

      I looked at the Innocence Project and it seems to mainly concern John Preston and his “magic dog”. Now, I don’t have enough patience to look into this more closely, but there may be other “prosecutorial” suspects (or hierarchies?) that seemingly don’t want to have too much sunshine on this “expert’s” work. Old boy networks?:

      John Preston

      In 2009, J. Preston Silvernail, chief judge of Florida’s 18th judicial circuit, declined to call a grand jury to investigate the Florida State Attorney’s Office’s hiring of Preston.[12]

    • leander22 says:

      Although yes, Scott Maxwell clearly seems to connect the cases with Wolfinger as do others.

      Would be interesting to look more closely into the genesis of the professional life of this late expert and his magical German shepherd, his background and his specific connections. But I understand to get the innocent out of jail is the more urgent thing to do. Obviously.

  10. colin black says:

    re above am reposting from old open thread

  11. colin black says:

    Someone upthread or another thread said something along the lines of makeing a stand against Big Brother type state an a perticular concern was a fear of the entire country being under watch spyed upon by C C T V.

    As a resident of the U K I live in the most heavly cctv monitered country on the Planet. And I not only have no problem with it I love it.Without a doubt it has made my Country a safer place to live.An the amount of crimes wich in the past would perhaps have gone unsolved.Have been prosecuted.

    Off the top of my head I can think of at least three serial killers caught directly due to cctv footage.One self proclaimed crossbow
    killer was caught on cctv fireing a crossbow into the back of a fleeing victims head

    Another was caught after a severed leg an other body parts were found in various refuse bins.Police simplt reveiwed the cctv tapes to see whom had placed them there an another serial killer was of the streets.

    UK is unique though an compared to most countrys tiny.In America some rich people got estates bigger than the UK..So its realatively easy an cheap to saturaye our entire Citys an Motor Ways with cameras an record plus keep footage of everything..

    Also for cctv to be efective you must have a trained staff U K its plice officers in each City monitering banks of screens of live feeds from up to 40 cameras each.Its there jobs tobe the eyes on so they can dirrect colleges on the streets where trouble or susspious event are happening.

    I doubt it posssable to ever have simmilar in the States or if the will is even there .Probably be against your presious carved in Stone Constitution.

    All this hoo ha at the lack of functioning cctv at the acussed gated comunity .As Ive said cctv to be an effective detterent has to have a staff trained to moniter it 24/7.Which is expensive my opinion of the home owners ass at T L R were cheapskates .

    Look whom there choice between paying S P D for a couple of extra officers to cover the retreat.Or alternatively hireing a private security /cops for hire type gaurds to moniter gates.An do regular drive throughs.

    Or get some no mark under acheiver with absulutelt no ties or loyalty to the community,Not only was he not an owner.He wasnt even a renter.He wasnt paying rent He was a sqwatter liveing there on the never never.

    That means never never pays for anything till tomorrow manyana never comes for thease types known as freeloaders.

    This is whom they chose to keep crime out of there retreat.

    An to finnish getting back to the security cctv moniters an the company hired to install the system .You know the one who bad memory gz knew there contact phone number.They would offer the assosiation 2 options.

    One expensive Second cheap.

    Expensive…Full coverge camra covrage through out the retreat say 24 camras each camra 2 grand.Full time moniterings staff 6 people each rotate in shifts three people at all times..365 days a year .Thats 6 yearly salarys ,Plust paying for moniters.

    Cheap..Install fake camras as deterant criminall cant tell the difference.If this is the option chosen though.It must be kept super seper secret squirell secret .Otherwise if word gets out …..You know the rest,,,,Except to keep cover if per chance something happpens an a incebent ensues an L E or a resident needs to veiw ffootage.To not blow cover .Say oh the system was down that day

    • seallison says:

      colin CCTVs really are nothing to be afraid of unless you are doing something wrong. To have people monitoring is a great job creator and would save money in the long run. Catch criminals including drug deals red handed. Love it. Canada is starting to move in that direction.

    • Jun says:

      I agree it would be helpful but it does not always help because some cameras are too bloodclot cheap in quality to get good footage and in Canada, they only place them in housing projects when they should be everywhere… and in America they place them only by people who put them up out of their own accord

    • bettykath says:

      Like-minded folks in the US will just love the HS new plan of thousands of drones monitoring their every move, beginning this year. The drones planned are everything from the ones killing innocent people in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen (supposedly unarmed) to some as small as hummingbirds and insects. Next step is arming them so they can take out the bad guys without arrests, or hearings or trials. Be careful though, the drone attacks are accurate but tend to take out lots of innocent people who just happen to be nearby.

      btw, colin, with the PATRIOT Act; the NDAA; the comprehensive data gathering of everything you say and do; the just renewed ok for warrantless wiretapping; the coordination of the feds, the state cops, the city cops, and the banks! against the Occupy Movement; the TSA doing very invasive personal searches without warrant, searches that would result in charges of sexual assault if done on the street and which are now happening at routine car stops, there isn’t much left of the Bill of Rights, the only part of the Constitution intended to protect the people. The second amendment, the right to bear arms, is now under attack. The first amendment, the right to free speech, the right to criticize the government, is also under attack with kids being suspended from school and protesters being arrested.

      Our Constitution is a great piece of paper, unfortunately, to many, that’s all it is, a piece of paper.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Yes, and nobody “up top” is thinking very clearly. Of course they enjoy more and more power, but they don’t seem to realize where that will take us and them. To a moribund U.S.S.R. type gov’t, where innovation suffers and productivity stagnates to the point that there are extreme shortages as the nation attempts to continue running on obsolete fare. While other nations, that are not quite as “go go” as we are, but who trade off the tops for a more sustainable moderate approach, run circles around us. Some of them, even circling us like buzzards expecting a meal.

  12. seallison says:

    1) I agree that this is a good start.

    2) Arming teachers!!! If a teacher is required to be armed, you will have alot of potential teachers turning to other professions. Could be, teachers will have to add a course for children to learn – learning how to handle guns. If the educational system thinks it is okay for the teacher to carry, why not get the kids in the mood to tote a weapon. #2 is an absolutely ridiculous notion.

    3) Armed guards — sure — put more fear in the minds of the next generation. This way, they will be more inclined to feel a need to own and carry a gun in the real world. After all, the armed guards wont be there after graduation. #3 is a bad idea and proven it does not work.

    4) Mental Health testing. Now, you are getting into Human Rights and the Right to Privacy issues. First off, it is cost-prohibitive. Secondly, how does any professional assess a persons ability to kill unless it is obvious.

    I think gun manufacturers need to be held accountable. They do it with cigarette companies and drug companies. Cigarettes and drugs do have a danger of causing harm as does a gun. Manufacturers should not be allowed to make weapons for public use that will do more than allow personal protection. If someone hunts for sport or food — a special monitored gun control could be implemented. When you see a hunter stockpiling, something is amiss. How many guns can one person carry in the bush at one time.

    Somebody, a few days ago said tax. YES – heavily tax gun ownership. Taxes on the ammunition is a good one. Licenses taxed, etc.

    Change the gun culture – cant buy guns at gun shows, cant have gun adverts, only purchase guns at a government agency where records are in a database.

    Too long already. I will stop.

    • bettykath says:

      Good post. re: heavy taxes on guns and ammunition means that only those with the funds will be able to afford guns. I know people who hunt specifically to put meat in the freezer for year round eating b/c their funds are needed for things like housing and clothing and car insurance, et al. In general, I don’t like using taxes to modify behavior. Such taxes affect only the less affluent.

  13. bettykath says:

    A discussion was started on a previous thread about what should be done given the mass murders. Some of the suggestions include
    1. stronger gun laws and better background checks
    2. armed teachers
    3. use of national guard or similar organized partrol
    4. more mental health testing

    By thoughts:
    1. a good idea.
    2. you gotta be kidding. Just what we need, more guns in the schools [sarcasm] Any teacher worthy of the name wouldn’t consider shooting anyone.
    3. remember Kent State.
    4. seems that’s what was done in the USSR so that those who didn’t think “right” could be exiled. There is a problem with mental health and that’s the psychotropic drugs that are prescribed with such abandon. Nearly all of the mass murderers were on one or another of such drugs.

    The stronger gun laws need to start with the manufacturers who make the high powered weapons that can handle huge amounts of ammunition without reload and who then promote them as what men to prove the “manhood”. Better background checks for previous violent behavior. One gun per permit. A family court judge signed his own gun permit and then bought lots of guns without another review. It came to light when he was cleaning his loaded gun in his office and it went off. Fortunately no one was hurt.

    I’m surprised at the huge response to the buybacks that are going on. Folks are trading in their guns for some sort of remuneration, e.g. $100 food chit.

    • Malisha says:

      I guess they are starting to figure out that it’s more likely they’ll die of starvation than be shot down like an extra in a crime drama on TV.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Not to mention that a lot of people are realizing that when the chit hits the fan they need more cooperation with other people, not less.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      As a gun owner and liberal it kills me when things like this happen and people start shouting for more guns. More guns implies everyone(rightly or wrongly) has a weapon. These people forget or are unaware of just how panicky the average person actually is when thrown into a chaotic situation. using aurora as an example the situation could have been made far worse with multiple people opening fire in a dark crowded theater with people running in terror on all sides, with no real clue of who’s the good guy and who’s the bad guy.

      Not to mention the fact that just having a gun does not instantly make one a competent shooter let alone give someone the mental capacity to handle a situation like the above.

      As a parent my first instinct would be to get my son to someplace safe, not to draw my weapon, unless pushed to do so.

    • leander22 says:

      Folks are trading in their guns for some sort of remuneration, e.g. $100 food chit.

      do they check if there are people among them, who simply want to get rid of an old malfunctioning one and would prefer to have a better newer more effective gun anyway?

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