Open Thread for Sunday, December 30, 2012

Sunday, December 30, 2012

Good morning:

I just posted Is George Zimmerman a Symptom or the Cause of World Attention on Sanford Florida featuring Whonoze and Seallison’s comments on corruption in the Sanford Police Department.

Use this open thread for comments and discussions regarding other topics.

342 Responses to Open Thread for Sunday, December 30, 2012

  1. colin black says:

    Someone upthread or another thread said something along the lines of makeing a stand against Big Brother type state an a perticular concern was a fear of the entire country being under watch spyed upon by C C T V.

    As a resident of the U K I live in the most heavly cctv monitered country on the Planet. And I not only have no problem with it I love it.Without a doubt it has made my Country a safer place to live.An the amount of crimes wich in the past would perhaps have gone unsolved.Have been prosecuted.

    Off the top of my head I can think of at least three serial killers caught directly due to cctv footage.One self proclaimed crossbow
    killer was caught on cctv fireing a crossbow into the back of a fleeing victims head

    Another was caught after a severed leg an other body parts were found in various refuse bins.Police simplt reveiwed the cctv tapes to see whom had placed them there an another serial killer was of the streets.

    UK is unique though an compared to most countrys tiny.In America some rich people got estates bigger than the UK..So its realatively easy an cheap to saturaye our entire Citys an Motor Ways with cameras an record plus keep footage of everything..

    Also for cctv to be efective you must have a trained staff U K its plice officers in each City monitering banks of screens of live feeds from up to 40 cameras each.Its there jobs tobe the eyes on so they can dirrect colleges on the streets where trouble or susspious event are happening.

    I doubt it posssable to ever have simmilar in the States or if the will is even there .Probably be against your presious carved in Stone Constitution.

    All this hoo ha at the lack of functioning cctv at the acussed gated comunity .As Ive said cctv to be an effective detterent has to have a staff trained to moniter it 24/7.Which is expensive my opinion of the home owners ass at T L R were cheapskates .

    Look whom there choice between paying S P D for a couple of extra officers to cover the retreat.Or alternatively hireing a private security /cops for hire type gaurds to moniter gates.An do regular drive throughs.

    Or get some no mark under acheiver with absulutelt no ties or loyalty to the community,Not only was he not an owner.He wasnt even a renter.He wasnt paying rent He was a sqwatter liveing there on the never never.

    That means never never pays for anything till tomorrow manyana never comes for thease types known as freeloaders.

    This is whom they chose to keep crime out of there retreat.

    An to finnish getting back to the security cctv moniters an the company hired to install the system .You know the one who bad memory gz knew there contact phone number.They would offer the assosiation 2 options.

    One expensive Second cheap.

    Expensive…Full coverge camra covrage through out the retreat say 24 camras each camra 2 grand.Full time moniterings staff 6 people each rotate in shifts three people at all times..365 days a year .Thats 6 yearly salarys ,Plust paying for moniters.

    Cheap..Install fake camras as deterant criminall cant tell the difference.If this is the option chosen though.It must be kept super seper secret squirell secret .Otherwise if word gets out …..You know the rest,,,,Except to keep cover if per chance something happpens an a incebent ensues an L E or a resident needs to veiw ffootage.To not blow cover .Say oh the system was down that day

  2. looneydoone says:

    Let’s send ammonia and bleach with instructions to close the windows before mixing

  3. colin black says:

    I grew up in Edinburgh many off my freinds were in Travelling Familys an I learned to Mang the Khang.


    There are numerous words plus words with a catchall /multie task words..Such as COWIE….

    Feek = Take ;;;as in takeing something,Or even takeing yourself.somewhere
    Twirrlie= Key
    Naggins=Means you ….Or depend on context could mean you where alone

    Chav or Chavie= A youngish male or a baby of either sex……….However this word has made its way into mainsteam culture in the UK ..An is missused


    Hornnnies= police
    Prison= starday
    Non Travellin Folk=Flaties
    Stupid idiotic person ,or behaviour=radge
    jigger= lock………………..


    I could go on but thats just a small smattering .When theres no corosponding travelling word for an even or action thats when they interject a multi meaning word like ..COWIE…An re the context it was used in the listeners no whats being refered to…

    Also use an even simpler talk to baffle listeners called eggy languge

    Simmply inject egg into words you use

    Forinstance Shop becomes Sheggop….Dance = Deggance…Football =Feggootbeggall…An on an on it goes doest have to be egg can be ICE or anything you an your cohorts decide to use to code you talk

    Simple but effective.More So If you Talk Traveller an aso Eggy it up .

    You can sit in the back of a police car with a co arrrested an prattle away .An they havent a clue whats being said

    Also usefull for talking in front of forigners when your abroad whom understand English an have surriptsious intentions against you

    You can talk eggy or traveller an they are suddenly lost for words…………….If this to off topic pls delete.

  4. Malisha says:

    Something occurs to me about the security firm’s lawsuit against O’Mara, Fogen and Shelly. If they did a lot of expensive work while Fogen was still in jail, they were doing more than security. They were doing investigations, probably stuff like running around and either “talking to” people to impress upon them the importance of not becoming “loose lips,” and stuff that — well — stuff that they do not like to put on itemized bills. The fact that they are NOW suing and demanding more money AND obviously getting off the case would indicate to me that there is real trouble in Paradise. The activities are not being itemized errand for errand and chore for chore. O’Mara did pay them $40,000 and that sounds like a funny sum. They want $27,000 more and that sounds like a funny sum too. I will bet that after Fogen was denied the right to get that pesky anklet off, there were some tense negotiations about what was going to be done and, even more so, who was doing what to whom. Remember how hard West and O’Mara fought to try to get the home addresses of Trayvon’s family and friends and witnesses? What for? For research. They were looking for ways to discredit everybody to further their goal of finally making it clear that it was a “good shoot” because it was a “bad decedent” and that is still their only real purpose. I wonder how deep the security firm is standing in this — stuff.

    I haven’t done much research yet. This is just a bunch of ideas.

  5. Like maybe waiting for one of the Sanford officers to perjure themselves on the stand?

  6. seallison says:

    mountainmanpat – I believe what you are saying to be true. But, I think this is the exactly the issue. No one publicly seems to know who is checking who, for what, or even if at this point. We all know the Why of it and we are hoping for a genuine complete investigation is happening.

  7. seallison says:

    SearchingMind – (I like grahase better too – LOL) Thank you for talking about mandamus. I am understanding whonozes frustration about Wolfinger sort-of riding off into the sunset unnoticed more and more. I think we are working from the bottom up in hopes that the Fogen imprisonment is the first step.

    Mr Crump wrote a letter long ago asking for an investigation of Wolfinger on down an Wolfinger was not too pleased about it (another poster discussed this earlier).

    Wolfinger asked the U.S. Justice Department civil rights division to disregard a letter it received from lawyers for Martin’s family which referred to reports that Wolfinger interfered in the police investigation.

    The letter contained “outright lies,” Wolfinger said.

    Does anyone here know if there is progress in this regard. All I have read is from the FBI stating Fogen is not racist. Perhaps there is more of a stalling tactic in the Zimmerman case so that the fine details will become such a watered down version of the big picture story and the Florida justice system corruption will have escaped accountability.

    Looks like they will just paint the walls rather than washing them down first.

    • Or it could be the Feds are waiting for the end of the fogen circus so as not to interfere with it?

    • Malisha says:

      I don’t think the FBI said Fogen is not a racist; that’s the way O’Mara has been playing it. FBI said that in their interviews with the various witnesses whose names were provided in connection with the Trayvon Martin case, they had no evidence that Fogen was a racist. But of course, that wasn’t going to come up among the witnesses involved in the Trayvon Martin case, was it? His ex-girlfriend is as likely to be racist as he is, so she’d say “no he’s not.” People in the HOA don’t want to admit they let a racist become the NW Captain and get credibility from them to go to people’s homes and report people to police; they have a civil lawsuit coming up. Police don’t want to admit Fogen’s a racist because look at their position!

      The Arab co-worker that Fogen harassed and tried to cheat thinks he’s racist but was not a witness in the Trayvon Martin case. There are probably hundreds of other people who know a lot more about Fogen than the witnesses who gave statements to the FBI. But being a racist is not illegal. Committing a hate crime IS illegal. The scope of the evaluation we heard about from the FBI was very limited so far. They have not finished doing what they started, and I think there’s plenty more to come out.

      Remember when Mark Fuhrman testified in the OJ Simpson trial? Somebody totally unrelated to the case had a tape recording of him speaking about something totally unrelated to the case but using the “N Word,” and bingo, the whole case fell apart. But why? Because it was poised to fall apart and Mark Fuhrman lied on the stand, under oath, and got found out.

  8. SearchingMind says:

    A lot of media attention. I think the Professor should get the FBI involved, file a suit against HP and get the folks at CNN-USA, MSNBC, etc. talking about it. I most certainly would be doing that if I were the professor. This just has to stop. Period. (Hi Malisha! Nice to “see” you).

    • Maybe we should write to the media and try to get the ball rolling about
      these imposters!

    • Malisha says:

      You too, Searching. I’ve gone over to look at Huffie’s a couple of times but there are too many dumb people posting there for my taste. I find that my every day exposure to dumb people provides a level of irritation past which I cannot afford to go when I’m sitting at my computer virtualizing. 😛

      • You could refer to them as “Ignoranus’s”.

        Both stupid & an a$$hole 🙂

        I had one threaten me on newsvine to report me for using a shot up pic of fogen for my avatar.

        The same individual also threatened to come up here and piss his name in the snow on my property…….

        I let him know he was more than welcome….and also told him the possible results of trespassing onto my property.

        Like most all the zimbots…..a lot of keyboard tough guys…

      • Malisha says:

        OK Now I’ll tell a joke that was told to me by a judge in New York circa 1975. The judge was hearing a big case with about six defendants and six plaintiffs. My boss, a lawyer, was not representing any of the parties but wanted to keep track of the case and particularly of the evidence. He sent me to court each day with my shorthand book to take notes and report back. The courtroom was always filled with suits with briefcases and then there was me with my shorthand pad, not speaking to anyone, just taking notes.

        One day at lunch break, the judge said, as everyone was packing up, “Counsel approach.” All the lawyers flocked up to his bench. He then said, “You too, Miss, your boss loves these jokes, tell him I said so.” So I was embarrassed that the judge had “made” me and I was also a little embarrassed to be up at the bench listening to a joke, but I went (don’t want to be in contempt of court in NY!). The judge said:

        On a winter morning, a beautiful soft snowfall had blanketed everything in a foot of snow all around the White House. Nixon woke up and looked out at the White House lawn and to his horror, he saw, “DICK IS A PRICK” written in urine on the snow in the front lawn. He called in everybody and rushed into the oval office. He announced to his Secret Service people: “Nothing else gets done around here until you find out who did that. It is not just the first priority; it is the ONLY priority.”

        Away they scurry and an hour later they come back in and summon the President to the oval office again. He sits down and they stand at attention and the lead officer says, “Mr. President I have good news and I have bad news.”

        “Go ahead,” says Nixon, “But tell me the good news first.”

        The guy replies, “We did a urinalysis and we have determined that the urine belongs to Henry Kissinger.” Nixon screams, “YOU FOOL I SAID TO GIVE ME THE GOOD NEWS FIRST! YOU GAVE ME THE BAD NEWS FIRST!”

        “No,” the guy protests, “That WAS the good news. The bad news is that we did a handwriting analysis. The handwriting is Pat’s!”

        All the lawyers laughed. I was a young woman then and I was acutely embarrassed and by then, didn’t know if it was worse for me to laugh or to not laugh. When I got back to the office and told the joke to my boss, HE LAUGHED!

        That was one of New York’s best judges. I’m not naming names (did enough of that already). 😛

      • leander22 says:

        nice little anecdote, Malisha, wonderful joke. But who is Pat?

      • leander22 says:

        silly me, of course it must be Nixon’s wife.

    • looneydoone says:

      Searching Mind,
      I’d like the person(s) engaging in these deceptions to be identified, and prosecuted individually (there’s a general consensus it’s a member of fogens *tribe*). If that were proven as fact, it’s impeach any testimony they might want to offer in deposition or at trial .

  9. Professor,
    Someone is using your photo now on Huffington Post.
    Georges immature supporters sure must be threatened by your blog.

    • SearchingMind says:

      @ Professor

      Professor, this is very serious. I think it’s time to get the FBI involved and announce it. That will serve as a huge deterrent to other scammers.

      • Malisha says:

        How much media attention would Professor get if he sued Huff Post for whatever they could be sued for? Just askin…

        • Xena says:

          @Malisha. I’m really behind today, so forgive me if anyone else has addressed this. HuffPost is not the one to sue — at least not from the onset. The person to sue is the one who is deliberately perpetrating the impersonation. To do that, they would be sued as a John or Jane Doe in a federal court with request to conduct discovery to determine their identity and I would go further — requesting that HuffPost go through their personnel records to determine whether it is a member of their staff.

          The cause of action to bring is one of injunction. Chances are that the impersonator doesn’t a have pot neither a window.

      • SearchingMind says:

        A lot of attention. I think the Professor should get FBI involved, file a suit against HP and get the folks at CNN USA, MSNBC, etc. talking about it. I most certainly would be doing that if I were the professor. I have been stalked before and only God knew how emotionally devastated I was. This just has to stop. Period. (Hi Malisha! I clicked the wrong button. Nice to “see” you around).

    • Thank you for letting me know.

      Yes, they are threatened, but I have no control over what happens at the Huffington Post.

      Hell, I cannot even post there because they banned me years ago and never bothered to explain why.

      I have no respect for a site that bans someone and then permits an impostor to masquerade as that person for the site’s entertainment and profit.

      I don’t believe anyone seriously believes that I am posting over there, so I choose to ignore them.

      If anyone wants to know what my opinions are, they need only come here and read what I have to say.

  10. SearchingMind says:

    Thanks Seallison (and I like ‘Grahase’ better, seriously) for bringing the issue of prosecutorial discretion into focus. I like to chime in on that from a boring legalistic perspective and talk about the powerful intrument called ‘Mandamus’.

    The prosecutor is the so-called ‘dominus litis’ in criminal procedures. That means that he/she has exclusive powers in deciding whether or not to bring criminal charges, the nature of charges, plea bargaining and sentence recommendation. This is generally referred to as ‘prosecutorial discretion’ (the abuse of which is not the same as ‘prosecutorial misconduct’). Complaints abound of authorities not allowing criminal complaints to be filed and/or not taking such complaints seriously after they have been filed. This is a concern of many ordinary people (especially they without financial and/or social clout, abused women, etc.). In cases where the prosecuting authority declines to exercise its powers to prosecute, the law does provide for a remedy – in the form of “mandamus”. A mandamus is (within the scope of our discussion) a Writ/an Order issued by a Court (upon request of a petitioner) to the prosecuting authority, compelling the said authority to prosecute (a) specific (legal) person(s) for specific crime(s) – if certain conditions are met (e.g. the Court has jurisdiction; petitioner has sufficient interest/grievance to gain standing to litigate; absence of alternative legal remedy for petitioner, etc.). A finding that the prosecuting authority violated its own policy covering various classes of cases and the relevant factors of enforcement for each class of violation, generally leads to granting a Mandamus.

  11. seallison says:

    whonose et al – Here is a good article regarding Wolfinger and prosecutorial discretion:

  12. whonoze says:

    I don’t think GZ is creative enough to invent plausible lies out of whole cloth, especially given that on 2/26/12 he was buzzed enough that his speech was slowed and slurred, he couldn’t remember the street numbering system in his little conclave, and when Sean tried to correct him he only became more confused. So his lies are distortions of things that actually did happen.

    He says he saw Trayvon by Taaffe’s becuase he did once see someone he didn’t recognize by Taaffe’s. He says trayvon wlaked past his truck by the clubhouse because Trayvon did walk past his truck on TTL. “What you followin’ me for?” becomes, “You got a problem homie?” Sean’s question about what address he’s at gets moved to an entirely different part of the conversation, etc. etc. etc.

    This is one reason I think Trayvon did take a swing at him. A weak defensive punch that grazed GZ’s nose near the end of their struggle becomes a sucker-punch that breaks his nose at the start of the fight. Just as the fact his head got cut on a sprinkler cover embeded in a concrete base becomes “he bashed my head repeatedly against the concrete.” Reverse engineer the funhouse mirror of GZ’s mendacity, and you might actually find out what happened. E.g. ‘i walked over to RVC to look for an address” = “I ran over to RVC to see if i could catch the asshole leaving by the back gate.”

    • SearchingMind says:

      There are three reasons why I do not believe that Trayvon took a swing at Fogen:

      a. Trayvon, if I am not mistaken, was right handed and had other items (i.e. the 7/11 bag) in his hand on that fateful night. If Trayvon took a swing at Fogen, it has to be expected that he would have done that with his dominant (right) hand, while holding other stuff with his left hand;

      b. If the swing was strong enough to leave a cut on Trayvon’s left ring finger, it would have been more than strong enough to transfer Zimmerman’s DNA to Trayvon’s hands;

      c. The cut would have been located on top of Trayvon’s knuckles and not on the inside of his left ring finger and below the knuckles .

      d. The cut is not located on the part of the body that could be used in an offensive manner (if i am not mistaken on the the correct location of the wound).

      Trayvon could have gotten that cut trying to open a can of tuner the day before (just being sarcastic). I do not know how Fogen got his wounds and there is no object evidence that suggest that Trayvon may have inflicted those wounds. I think that Trayvon, after being suspended from school, was too concerned with not getting into yet another trouble than attacking Fogen.

      • My thoughts exactly on Trayvon’s punch (if there was one).
        If I am going to assault someone……I’m gonna make sure it’s a punch to do the most damage, hence using the dominate hand.

        The boo boo on fogens nose is on the right side….If trayvon threw a right handed punch then the boo boo should be on the left side.

        Again….It is my belief that fogen was wacked in the nose by the recoil of his own weapon……..considering the gun has many bad reviews for excessive recoil…..add to that, fogen’s dominate hand is his left…..and he fired the pistol with his right hand…..more than likely with a bent arm, which would further my belief that the boo boo was due to the recoil as it is on the same side of his face that he was holding the weapon with.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Hi Mountainmanpat. I know that Fogen’s gun and holster were tested for the presence of DNA. Do we know whether the shell casing was also tested? I think your theory would be confirmed if the shell casing show any traces of Fogen’s blood (DNA).

        • Fogens blood was found on his weapon…..let me make myself clear on this…..I’m NOT saying the spent cartridge hit him……..I’m saying the whole pistol hit him in the face.

          We all know fogen’s pride would not allow that… blame it on the Kid.

      • whonoze says:

        There’s a reading comprehension problem here. I AM NOT SAYING TRAYVON ATTACKED ZIMMERMAN, OK! TM did not use his right hand, because GZ was torturing him by bending his right wrist in a painful hold. Nor, at that point would TM have had access to the can of Arizona. And his cell phone was dropped, according to DeeDee, when the struggle began. Trayvon was not worried about getting into trouble when he took a swipe at Zimmerman, he was in trouble, howling in anguish, and he was just trying to get the larger man to break that painful grip.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Thanks, Whonoze, for the clarification. ‘That’ (i.e. clarity) might indeed be the ‘problem here’and not ‘reading comprehension’.

      • leander22 says:

        For whatever reason, I understand Whonoze perfectly well, so it cannot be about missing clarity. Consider I am even a bloody foreigner.

        Whonoze, I agree completely with your larger argument. If I read you correctly, that is. Obviously he fits his exculpatory narrative into the larger tale as he remembers it only slightly modifies it to fit his design.

        I found one little statement by him interesting. It’s during his confrontion with his 911 call. I think it’s about the button on Trayvon’s shirt, I think. He says: I don’t even remember, I said that.

        Yes, I thought, after 19:17 you tried really hard to remember what you had told to Sean and how you could modified the context to fit your tale. Actually, could you ask them to call me, strictly is connected with the event at Taaffe’s house too, where indeed he calls back. Would have been much easier had Timothy Smith called him on 02/02/2012 would have saved time. They always get away! So yes, that day is on his mind, definitively.

        As you I very very hesitant about his tale surrounding Taaffe’s house. It’s an interesting passage during the reenactment too. At one point he seems to realize he is going to elaborate slightly too much, interrupts himself, and motions to move on. But at that point he gets a cue from the man at the wheel and then merrily elaborates on, although not exactly in the same way he wanted to before. Before he wanted to say that Trayvon stopped and looked around if someone else was watching him. (Burglars always check if they are watched, you know.) But then he realized maybe that is a little too much elaboration except that the reenactment guy at the wheel helps him out of his slight distress at that point little with his cue.

        Notice Singleton seems to be in the back of the same car, at least she gives the introduction, instead of letting GZ tell his own story once again. Initially I thought she is in Serino’s car in front and her voice is over some kind of radio. But I am not too sure anymore.

        • Leander said,

          “As you I very very hesitant about his tale surrounding Taaffe’s house. It’s an interesting passage during the reenactment too. At one point he seems to realize he is going to elaborate slightly too much, interrupts himself, and motions to move on. But at that point he gets a cue from the man at the wheel and then merrily elaborates on, although not exactly in the same way he wanted to before. Before he wanted to say that Trayvon stopped and looked around if someone else was watching him. (Burglars always check if they are watched, you know.) But then he realized maybe that is a little too much elaboration except that the reenactment guy at the wheel helps him out of his slight distress at that point little with his cue.”

          Seemed to me that the defendant stopped himself in mid sentence as he was about to say regarding Trayvon, “Then he looked at me to see who was with me in my vehicle.”

          He did not want to admit that someone was with him.

      • onlyiamunitron says:

        It was not a cut, it was an abrasion.

        If it had been a cut, the autopsy report would not have used the term abrasion. They might have said laceration instead of cut, but they would not have said abrasion if it had been a cut.

        If Zimmerman used his dominant hand, the left, to grab Martin’s arm while they were facing, then most likely it would have been Martin’s right arm that he would have grabbed.

        As a reflex Martin might have hit Zimmerman with his (Martin’s) left fist, most likely striking the right hand side of Zimmerman’s face and nose.


    • Mirre says:

      Yes, that is exactly what he does. First interview with Singleton.

      He spots Trayvon near Taaffe’s. He stops the car in front of the clubhouse. Calls the nen. Trayvon passes his car and down TTL. According to GZ, Trayvon stares inside the car when he passed the car. Trayvon disappears between the houses. Singleton asks “can you see that from here?” He says yes. He drives his car onto TTL.

      First he says he parked his car near the first bend, then changes it to nearer the cut-through. Trayvon comes back from somewhere and circles his car, then disappears in the cut-through. He can’t see if Trayvon turns right on the dog path.

      He gets out of his car to see if there is a street sign near the house. He can’t find one. Sean asks him if he is out of his car, what direction Trayvon went, and if he was following Trayvon. GZ replies he doesn’t know where Trayvon went so he doesn’t know if he is following him. GZ walks via the cut-through towards RVC to get an address.

      Singleton asks ” did you get an address?” GZ says no, but I was able to explain to the despatcher to go past the clubhouse to where his car was parked.

      If we combine what we know with GZ’s habit of changing around real events, what do we get.

      First we don’t think GZ spotted Trayvon near Taaffe, but he used the story from a couple of weeks before. Trayvon was at the mail area long before GZ got there.

      We know he didn’t park in front of the clubhouse, but instead stopped briefly in front of the mail area. He starts driving east on TTL, when he pulls away from the mail area the nen call begins. He makes a uturn and starts driving west on TTL towards the mail area. He stops his car at the first bend on TTL directly facing the mail area at the first parking spot he marked on TTL and which he crossed out and replaced with the second spot. Another lie, he omitted the first parking spot to hide the fact that he tailed Trayvon in his car on TTL.

      He turns his lights off and within 10 seconds after he stops the car, he says ” now he is coming towards me”.
      That matches Deedee’s statement, that this dude was watching him in a car, and he was on the telephone, and he was going to walk home. As Trayvon walks east on TTL, he has to pass the car.
      This lines up with GZ’s story about Trayvon passing him while he was supposedly parked in front of the clubhouse.

      Deedee made a statement that GZ was following Trayvon in his car. We can’t see that tail in the clubhouse videos, but you can hear the gearshift about 10 seconds after GZ said ” now he is
      coming towards me and again about 33 seconds later.

      If you check the clock in Dave’s video from when he starts walking from the mail area to where GZ said he parked the car on TTL, it takes exactly the same time as the time between when GZ said “now he is coming towards me” and “he is running”. I think Trayvon started to run where GZ said he’d parked his car. GZ must have been following very close.

      I think his story about Trayvon disappearing the first time into the cut-through is the adaptation of Trayvon running away. He left out that this was when he got out of his car and followed Trayvon.

      I think GZ’s story about Trayvon suddenly reappearing to circle his car is very interesting, because I believe that is the adapted story of how they met up again after GZ got of the phone. I believe GZ wanted to start looking for Trayvon in his car. He believed Trayvon went in the direction of the back entrance. In one of his other calls, he mentions ” they run into the complex next to the RATL.
      I think they ran into each other again near the cut-through by accident. GZ may even have been in his car. I have no clue where Trayvon was hiding out, I just don’t think it was on the dog path.

      Trayvon thought he had lost GZ and started walking towards the dog path when GZ spotted him, and started to follow him in between the houses. Like what Trayvon said to Deedee ” he is following me again”.

      The next adaptation of GZ is his story about how he passed the dog path and was confronted by Trayvon who jumped out of the bushes.
      I think GZ followed Trayvon in between the houses, and Trayvon thought it was better to turn around and face GZ rather than have him follow him on this dark path towards his home, and ask him why he was following him. This was changed into Trayvon ambushing him and saying ” do you have a problem homey?”

      I think GZ pushed him, that explains how they started moving south on the dog path. I still think it is possible Trayvon swung the plastic bag with the the soda can at GZ. That may have caused the nick on his nose, and GZ didn’t see it coming and never figured out what it was.

      I know the ice tea was found in his pocket, but I think there was some kind of screw up with that item.
      FDLE asked a lot of questions about that can.
      Raimondo the first officer to start CPR said he felt the can, but didn’t take it out of his pocket. Mccoy who observed Raimondo giving CPR said the can was near Trayvon’s body. Brandy the EMT said, he removed the can from Trayvon’s pocket when he took over CPR from Raimondo. He also said the can was not in a plastic bag.

      • Malisha says:

        Mirre, when Singleton is asking Fogen about the events he does mention speaking with Sean on the NEN but his narration of the NEN call is all messed up and inaccurate.

        He gets out of his car to see if there is a street sign near the house. He can’t find one. Sean asks him if he is out of his car, what direction Trayvon went, and if he was following Trayvon. GZ replies he doesn’t know where Trayvon went so he doesn’t know if he is following him. GZ walks via the cut-through towards RVC to get an address.

        What had really happened on the NEN call was that:

        1. Sean asked Fogen, in response to hearing, “Shit, he’s running,”: “He’s running? Which way is he running?” Fogen says he is running towards the back entrance to the neighborhood.

        2. Sean never asks him if he got out of his car. Sean asks, suddenly, “Are you following him?” Fogen says, “yeah.”

        So even in this rendition of events to Singleton, right after they happened, you get the following cognitive dissonance:

        He got out of his car (a) to see if there was a street sign and/or (b) to get an address (which he then does not give Sean).

        He did not tell Sean that he was unaware of whether or not he was following Trayvon because he didn’t know where Trayvon went. In fact he told Sean where Trayvon went, AND he told Sean he WAS indeed following Trayvon.

        This is FOUR LIES in three sentences!

      • Mirre says:

        Yes Malisha,
        GZ can’t say more than one sentence without telling a lie. I got a little enthousiastic about Whonoze’s remark about the structure of GZ’s lies. I’ve noticed the same pattern too. GZ doesn’t invent complete new stories, but he alters real events.
        He also doesn’t really spend much time thinking about his lies. Everytime he is confronted with a problem with one of his lies, he just alters that specific lie without considering the effect that has on the rest of his narrative.

        I just took his first interview as a starting point for the evolution of his lies.
        We have been able to piece together a lot of his actual movements from the clubhouse videos, Deedee’s statements, and the nen call, and it is kind of interesting to see GZ’s translation machine at work.

        We know that Trayvon had to pass GZ’s car to get home and he probably glanced at his car while passing, from the clubhouse videos. We know that GZ reports it to Sean in the nen. But in his interviews it occurs, according to GZ in front of the clubhouse, while in reality it happens on TTL.
        That is a typical example of a GZ lie. That is why timing in GZ’s story are incompatible with the nen call, and the timing of events on the clubhouse videos are exact within seconds with the nen call.

        In the first interview for example, he said he parked in front of the clubhouse, where he saw Trayvon disappearing in the cut-through. Singleton says “can you see that from here” and GZ said yes.

        When he was doing the video reenactment, he realized when he is parked with the detectives in front of the clubhouse, that it is impossible to see the cut-through from that position.
        GZ has only one explanation for every movement he makes, that can be interpreted as him following Trayvon. That is Sean made him do it.

      • leander22 says:

        Amsterdam, I would have written pretty much the same Malisha writes below.

        GZ replies he doesn’t know where Trayvon went so he doesn’t know if he is following him.

        You have to be really careful to not get into his trap. When Sean asks him if he is following him, he clearly admits it, it’s only later that the “following bit” gets censured, so to speak.

        Pleased you are around, by the way. 😉

      • leander22 says:

        GZ’s translation machine at work.

        that’s a good way to put it, add censorship: some items disappear like the following, following gets completely erased in the process. To the point that he claims the noise we hear has nothing to do with him running. Maybe someone can get Dave to make a test, but how do we get it recorded by NEN or 911?

      • leander22 says:

        He stops his car at the first bend on TTL directly facing the mail area at the first parking spot he marked on TTL and which he crossed out and replaced with the second spot.

        Someone mentioned that Fogen drew the spots for Singleton ib her interview and that this drawing has disappeared or has been shredded or whatever. what exactly are you relying on above, for whatever reason I seem to remember such a map too, but I can’t place it at the moment.

      • leander22 says:

        Raimondo the first officer to start CPR said he felt the can, but didn’t take it out of his pocket.

        I am not sure if I trust the reports, anyway you are correct Raimondo is the only one that mentions the can. Notice Raimondo’s report just like Timothy Smith is modified by Stacy McCoy the on duty supervisor. Anyway supposedly involved with CPR Ayala, Raimondo Stacie McCoy:

        Raimondo, 03/02/2012, modified by McCoy:

        I lifted the males shirt and saw a chest wound. As I lifted the shirt, I felt a large, cold can in the center pocket. I directed bystanders nearby to get some plastic wrap and Vaseline. … I was unable to find an exit wound on the males back.

        Sgt. McCoy relieved Ofc. Ayala from chest compressions ans she and I performed CPR for approximately six minutes before rescue arrived. Once rescue took over, I stood by and watched until they pronounced the male deceased.

        This is what McCoy writes herself, apart from whatever she may have added or modified in the report above.

        Stacie McCoy, 3/9/2012

        Upon making contact with the officers that were with the victim (Ayala, Raimondo), I provided a CPR mask to Sgt. A. Raimondo so that he may provide rescue breath. I put gloves on, placed a plastic bag over the wound to the victim’s chest and proceeded to provide chest compressions. Our efforts were continued until SFD arrived and took over. Briefly thereafter, SFD declared the victim deceased.

        Can you imagine this happening with a can in the center pocket?
        I can’t. The photocopies are too bad to see this center pocket.

        Besides, if I am not completely mistaken it takes four minutes before rescue is informed. Which considering there was a shot, I find odd. Which brings me back to the problems to read the diverse call logs. It’s mainly guesswork.

        Happy new year, mine starts soon.

    • Malisha says:

      Whonoze, I don’t believe that ridiculous statement he made to Serino that he couldn’t remember the name of a street so he got out of his car to find the street sign. He thereafter changed the story to “finding an address” anyway so his forgetting the name of the street would be even more ridiculous.

      When there’s a kernel of truth in Fogen’s statements, it’s a kernel of truth that he either feels he has to fit into the story, a
      kernel of truth that he accidentally said when he slipped up, or a kernel of truth that he deliberately wants to insert into the story to show something good about himself. But he handles kernels of truth the same way he handles lies. They are all just word-things that he can manipulate to make thought-things out of them so that he can use those thought-things to make others do what he wants them to do. It’s like building stuff with different colored legos. Truth is the same as lies to him; they’re all just word-things that he has a right to use his own way because he’s got credibility because he’s a decent American.

      Remember the reason he lied about money to Judge Lester? “He was afraid, mistrustful and confused.” So you’d think he swore to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so long as he feels good and trusts everybody. Yeah, when will THAT happen?

      • I wonder how many “I don’t know’s” & “I don’t remember’s” a jury can take…..

        I think he even has himself confused in his lies.

      • whonoze says:

        I completely agree with the gist of your post. I give no credit to any of GZ’s statements to the police. When I say he was confused about the street numbering system, I refer strictly to the NEN call, where he is unable to describe the location of his truck effectively even though he is trying, and can’t comprehend the correct address for the clubhouse even after Sean reminds him.

        Sean: OK—you said it’s 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?

        GZ: (unsure, confused tone) That’s the clubhouse…

        So Sean has already pulled up the map and knows the actual address of the clubhouse. Any normal person with their wits about them would say, “Yes, it’s 1111” being reminded that EVERY address in the Retreat contains four digits. But GZ is unable to parse the difference between four and three.

        Similarly, he tries to describe (badly) how to follow TTL instead of just naming it, which would be a lot easier.

        GZ: When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.

        Sean: So it’s on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?

        GZ: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh, you go straight in, don’t turn, and make a left.

        How much simpler would it have been to say: “The street you come in on is Twin Trees Lane. Just follow that and after it turns to the left you’ll see my truck.”

        And he doesn’t describe the truck. He does not, as he claimed in the ‘re-enactment’ say it’s a Honda Ridgeline, nor does he even say “It’s a white pickup.”

        My point is that during the 911 call, GZ was half in-the-bag. I’m outraged the SPD didn’t have him tested for drugs or alcohol, as I am convinced he was at least somewhat intoxicated (neither Temazepam or Adderal lead to slurred speech and increased aggression, but good old booze does both.)

      • Mirre says:

        He had no problem remembering the name in the video reenactment. I thought it was kind of funny when he told Serino he wanted to become a judge. I guess a poor memory is not a problem in law school.

  13. seallison says:

    Vince Li – the guy who stabbed, decapitated, and cannibalized a 22 year old passenger on a Greyhound bus just outside of Winnipeg a few years ago was found not criminally responsible and was housed in a heavy-duty mental institution in a small town just outside of Winnipeg.

    Yep. He grabbed the young mans severed head up with one hand and a knife in the other for all the passengers to see before he started to eat him.

    Believe it or not, he is now allowed to walk the streets and the hospital grounds of Selkirk, MB under generalized supervision.

    The public is totally outraged because the doctors say he ONLY has a .08% chance of re-offending!!!

    • Jun says:

      see that is what I dont get about the insanity plea

      “Oh he or she is insane?

      Let us let him walk around the community”

      I am not asking for the death penalty but bloodclot damn
      the guy should not be walking around Winnipeg

      He chopped a dude’s head off and started eating him!

      • seallison says:

        Yea – not being held criminally responsible. Okay, then. After his condition is diagnosed and proper medication to control the mental illness is provided — then send him to jail!! ..or send him to a facility where he can walk about. But, the public feels it is a slap in the face to see him walking freely after such a horrendous crime.

        This is why I am more afraid of the so-called sane folk. He had no history of any mental disorder.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Sounds like a Canadian issue. There are truly awful lock-ups for the criminally insane here, not to mention folks like this going to regular prisons as well, despite insanity.

      • Malisha says:

        There is something quite strange about the use of the insanity plea in American law, and that is that the worse the act that constitutes the crime, the more likely it is that the plea of “not criminally responsible by reason of insanity” called “NCR” or “the insanity plea” will ultimately be accepted. There are plenty of crimes that one believes were committed while the perp was in the throes of terrible mental illness but that still do not reach the level of being an insanity plea that is accepted by the criminal court. The point at which this becomes most significant is, of course, the death sentence cases. The dilemma presents itself: Is this person, who has committed a horrific act (or more than one horrific act) to be considered GUILTY of it or NOT GUILTY of it for purposes of “punishment”?

        Let’s take an example where the person is considered NCR and sentenced to an indeterminate (for it is always indeterminate once the insanity plea is accepted, I believe) term in the psychiatric hospital for the “criminally insane.” What if that person responds to medications and is considered sane one year later?

        In our legal system, that person has been “rehabilitated” once he has achieved “sanity.” There will be hearings, of course. I don’t know what they’re like and I don’t know what kinds of issues come up at those hearings. But let’s say a guy who raped, killed and cannibalized a young woman (with no known motive) is NCR and a year later he’s rehabilitated and gets discharged from the psychiatric hospital. Is he ready for society?

        Here’s my take on this, although nobody asked me and I have no degree in anything that would give me a reason to opine:

        If you become sane after you have been insane to the extent that you have violated the most serious taboos of your society, and hurt someone horribly so that the suffering you caused lives on in perpetuity, what IS sanity a year later, or ten or twenty years later. Lets look at this sane person. Part of his recapturing his sanity just HAS to be understanding that while he was insane he did a terrible, horrible, possibly unforgivable thing. What does his sanity require of him now?

        My answer will displease a lot of people. I think his sanity requires of him that he understands he is NOT able to go back into what prisoners call “the world” as if he had not committed any crime. I think if a perp is truly sane after having committed a heinous crime, he will not WANT to return to “the world” without a serious measure of restriction. But we do not have any arrangements for such a person and we cannot have one, based upon the Constitutional protection against “double jeopardy.” I would conceive of a form of supervision that is neither prison nor hospital, but that requires that the person stay within the supervision basically for as long as the criminal sentence for his insane crime would have been, had it not been insane. During that period of time, however, I would not provide for “parole” based upon either remorse or good behavior, because behavior had nothing to do with the crime committed; insanity had to do with the crime committed. In other words, I would never want to see Issae out of supervision, no matter where in the world he was. If he could not get a form of supervision in Japan, I would go back to the drawing board and say that he could not be repatriated to Japan.

        All this would be very difficult to accomplish. I realize it is not even possible in our system, I’m just in a meditation on the meaning of sanity and crime.

        • Any discussion of insanity, which is a legal rather than a psychiatric term, must begin with a definition. Most states apply the M’Naughten test, which is based on an English case back around 1824 or so, IIRC.

          The test is whether, as a result of a mental disease or defect (that usually requires a psychiatric diagnosis), the person cannot distinguish between right and wrong at the time of the act and conform his conduct to the requirements of law.

          This is a difficult test to meet in a murder case, for example, because most delusional people still know that killing another person is prohibited by law. Any evidence of an attempt to conceal the murder or one’s role in it will flunk the test because such conduct to avoid potential legal consequences demonstrates an awareness that the act committed was against the law and will have serious consequences.

  14. Jun says:

    I know it did not happen in America, but in France, they have similar due process rights, and what scares me because Issei should be in prison for killing, raping, and eating a woman…

    yet he is walking around free…

    and the only people that are screwed by this now are people who live in public housing projects in Japan because now they have to live in fear of the psycho living next door

  15. Malisha says:

    I don’t play the dozens, man,
    Dozens ain’t my game,
    But what Gladys done to Fogen
    show nuff was a cryin’ shame.

    ‘Cause she made him such a scairty cat
    he couldn’t hold his own,
    if you so much as look at him
    he’s shakin’ to the bone.

    So that’s how come he seen Trayvon
    and got hisself all riled,
    And had to go and follow him
    and kill an innocent child.

    So mamas, when you raise your boys,
    Don’t do like Gladys done.
    Just let them grow up normally
    so they don’t kill no one.

    • blushedbrown says:

      Malisha you are too cool for school. 🙂

    • cielo62 says:

      Patent that tune!

      Sent from my iPod

    • seallison says:

      By the time this case is over, you will be able to cut a whole album or write a book. The Fogen case, totally in verse!

    • Jun says:

      this would go with a nice blues riff

    • Xena says:

      Funny! You gave me a flashback to the scene from Adventures in Babysitting.

    • Malisha…..Works out real well with the “House of the Rising Sun” melody.

      • Malisha says:

        Grey, OK, but I ain’t never laid down no melody on the dozens befoe. Maybe better try this one:

        [To the melody line of “Amazing Grace”]

        A drizz-ling eve down in the South,
        When Fo-gen sees his prey,
        He’s been just runn-in off his mouth,
        Until this ve-ry day.

        “Suspicious guy!” he thinks, and states,
        to Sean at N-E-N,
        “I’ll bring him in…” he spe-culates,
        “since they’ll be late again.”

        And out he sets, good deeds to do,
        To be a hero man…
        But what is this? This can’t be true!
        “OH SHIT,” he says, “He RAN!”

        The chase begins, and then the flood
        of his adren-aline…
        He cannot stop till he draws blood
        to bathe away Black sin.

        But now fate deals a crooked hand
        And foils his pure intent!
        His acts divide America,
        which is-n’t what he meant!

        If only all the people saw
        the rightness of his soul.
        They’d surely pass a special law
        forgiving his patrol.

        “He hit me first” he now proclaims,
        “And it was me who screamed!”
        But soon he learns who Corey blames:
        His act is unredeemed.

        Amazing Grace, how can you float
        unsettling past his eyes,
        And will you leave him so remote,
        rejecting you with lies?

        He says, “I am devout and good,
        and filled with cha-rity.
        So why am I misunderstood,

        Amazing Grace, does time draw near
        when Fogen finds a way
        To tell the truth, abandon fear,
        and serve his time, and pray?

        The man who wrote this song at first
        was filled with greed and rage.
        Amazing Grace could quench his thirst
        and help him turn the page.

        Amazing Grace, you touched a wretch,
        and brought him through his sin,
        Could once again your music stretch
        and bring another in?


        This relates to the fact that the man who wrote “Amazing Grace,” John Newton, had been involved in the slave trade before he went through a conversion and became an abolitionist. He died in 1807.

  16. Xena says:

    Remember prior discussions about the EMTs report that the blood on GZ’s head was dry? And, Lonnie suggests that the wounds were self-inflicted before GZ left the house? And, my position is that GZ got blood from Trayvon’s wound to place on his head, which would make the wounds look fresh but that it dried quicker than that of blood running from a fresh wound?

    Please, look at the photo and tell me if it doesn’t look like putting blood on sideways then running it down with the fingers. I even count five lines to one boo-boo, six on the other with one being faint as though an afterthought.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      I don’t think he self-inflicted before leaving home– the photo shows fresh blood, shiny-wet, red, not in focus. The blood trails were fully formed and coagulated by the time the 7:19 photo was taken. It dried by the time EMT’s applied first aid, so the trails were visible in the station photos. I don’t think he could have scooped blood from Trayvon and put it on his head. Instead, this shows that he was upright from the moment those wounds were opened, and with his head positioned to look downward.

      • Xena says:

        I don’t think he could have scooped blood from Trayvon and put it on his head. Instead, this shows that he was upright from the moment those wounds were opened, and with his head positioned to look downward.

        Okay, but have you considered Lonnie’s comments about the time it takes for blood to dry?

        I’m not that scientific, but from the moment I read the EMT’s report, questioned whether that blood should be dry when the EMT’s got to him to clean it off. Also, when people apply hair products by hand to their head, they generally start at the front or top and run their fingers down.

    • leander22 says:

      And, my position is that GZ got blood from Trayvon’s wound to place on his head,

      Try to apply arbitrarily blood from whatever source to the back of your head–ok you have to shave it first ;)–I think it would be easy to find out how hard it would be to leave the documented pattern. Smearing would be more easy.

  17. Malisha says:

    RE: Wolfinger.

    (You know, I’m having a hard time figuring out who is the worst of the cover-up team members. I am presently thinking Wolfinger takes the cake.)

    Here’s a press report on Wolfinger: Wolfinger’s statement called the allegations in Crump’s letter “outright lies,” saying:

    “I am outraged by the outright lies contained in the letter by Benjamin Crump to Deputy Assistant Attorney General Roy Austin dated April 2, 2012. I encourage the Justice Department to investigate and document that no such meeting or communication occurred. I have been encouraging those spreading the irresponsible rhetoric to stop, and allow State Attorney Angela Corey to complete her work. Another falsehood distributed to the media does nothing to forward that process.”

    So Wolfinger had the nerve to (a) accuse Crump of having written “outright lies”; (b) thought he was in a position to “encourage” the Justice Department to investigate and document what HE wanted them to conclude; (c) label a position opposite to his as “irresponsible rhetoric”; and most bizarre of all, (d) suggest that Angela Corey would not be able to complete her work unless all his exhortations to third, fourth and fifth parties were obeyed. He concludes in truly nonsequitorial style: “Another falsehood distributed to the media does nothing to forward that process,” as if Corey had to get her information from the media.

    Wolfinger is about as dirty as anyone could ever get. I think we should all take responsibility to send a gallon of bleach to his house through UPS or something; he needs to come clean.

    • cielo62 says:

      I’ll send Pine-Sol. It has a nice piney woods smell! 😉

      Sent from my iPod

    • Xena says:

      Wolfinger is about as dirty as anyone could ever get.

      The buck stops at the top, which is the State’s Attorney office. We have one here whose office will not sign for certified mail, and whose right-hand guy says that false police reports made by city and state employees cannot be prosecuted because recordings of those 911 calls are not evidence.

      I hold Wolfinger totally accountable for his refusal to follow-up on Serino’s capias.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Wolfinger’s attitude is what is called ‘Chutzpah’ – the kind that comes with power, a strong pretention of entitlement and assumed omnipotence.

      • Malisha says:

        In my mind, Wolfinger’s behavior (as opposed to his attitude) demonstrates a lot worse than ‘chutzpah.’ Chutzpah has a humorous connotation to it but is not ordinarily used to describe outrageous, wrongful, dishonest, and deliberately abusive behavior. The most famous chutzpah joke is:

        A man stands accused of having murdered his father and his mother. He is convicted and at sentencing, the judge asks him if he wants to say anything. He stands and says, “Your Honor, please take pity on me, I am an orphan.”

        Wolfinger is corrupt and, in my opinion, as close to evil as a person can come without being a mass murderer or something. (His conduct may amount to mass murder but not by direct and proximate cause, of course.) He lied and then he called Crump’s allegations against HIM “outrageous lies.” He abuses the power of his position. He behaves like a psychopath. He is the worst example of prosecutorial misconduct that we find. I can’t even get a good laugh from his behavior; it is sickening.

    • leander22 says:

      In hindsight I would prefer it had Benjamin Crump not added this bit of information in his letter to the Department of Justice that Wolfinger attacks:

      In particular, we learned that on that night of February 26, 2012 within hours of the shooting in which Trayvon Martin was killed, Sanford Chief of Police met with State Attorney Norm Wolfinger.

      To this day it feels this could simply be a rumor spread by a not so reliable source. Although this part, no doubt is true:

      We also believe that family members of the shooter George Zimmerman were present at the police department.

      Concerning not following up on Serino’s Capias, well Serino himself recanted a couple of days later and added quite a few curious little ROI’s to his initial Capias. Concerning Serino, I will stay tuned. Odd little piece of the larger puzzle. …profiling… between specialist and amateur.

      • Malisha says:

        Yes, Serino is a big puzzle to me. Sounds like a character out of the “Alexandria Quartet.” Byzantine. Florida cop, what can I say?

  18. seallison says:


    If Fogen says Trayvon was trying to get access to Fogens gun and saying that he was going to die tonight, why would he think to frisk (in his own special way) after he shot him hoping he had a weapon of some sort.

    Had Trayvon had a weapon, he would surely have used it rather than try to kill Fogen with his bare hands.

    Some have brought this up before and I do not know why it does not make sense. But, you look at the evidence photo (it isn’t easy though) of Trayvon’s sweatshirt, there is alot of blood. Fogen using Trayvon’s blood to make his scratches look more than they were, IMO, is not so far-fetched.

    – he washed right after at the station,
    – there is nothing in evidence to show that the materials used to clean him up at the scene were saved,
    – some witnesses have indicated there was ALOT of blood on his face.

  19. Hey folks, just putting in my daily appearance! 😉

  20. In all seriousness now…

    Prof….Group……Wouldn’t fogen filing suit against NBC give NBC’s legal staff reason to go looking for smut on fogen to defend themselves in his case?

    If such is the case?????? Not very helpful for fogens defense!!!!!

    • The lawsuit against NBC was a not very smart publicity stunt.

    • seallison says:

      I think he was hoping for a quick, quiet settlement and filed it after advice from his brainiac associates. Maybe his big brother is working on the same scam because he continues to come up with discussions that surely command hostile reaction and he thinks he is riding the Fogen fame wave.

  21. MOM

    “You’re Honor, my client was kidnapped by the New Black Panthers… I have this hand written note in Ebonics……THEY…not my client removed the monitoring device so they couldn’t be tracked….We also intend to file suit against our $700.00 a week security company for letting this happen….now we must go rescue fogen from the NBP before it’s too late”

    Does this sound too far fetched? 🙂

    • cielo62 says:

      It can’t be too hard to overpower 2 Black Panthers…

      Sent from my iPod

    • Jun says:

      According to Junior

      They are in dire threat of the Black Caucus and NAACP ninja assassins


    • seallison says:

      Finally!! My laugh of the day. Thanks – needed that. Trouble is — it is as far-fetched as the rest of his scams.

      • seallison says:

        what is ebonics, though.

        • cielo62 says:

          Back in the 70s (I think) some linguists tried to label African American dialect as its own language. It was Eubonics.

          Sent from my iPod

        • blushedbrown says:

          Ummm, let me see if I can give you a quick and dirty so you can understand.

          It’s basically slang. “Ebonics” term was coined in the early or late 90’s. Most terms were used so as not to be understood by another group of people.

          Example, and it may be bad but just to give you a clue.


          I want to know more information on that girl who gives it up?

          translation into ebonics/slang

          Yo, whats the dilly on that chickenhead.

          or Yo, what’s the 411 on that head.

          Hope this helps,

          BTW this is not to meant to be offensive to anyone or taken as a racist remark.

      • seallison says:

        Get it now – sort of like Rhyming slang in London.

        Rhyming slang has the effect of obscuring the meaning of what is said from outsiders. It isn’t clear whether this is intentional, to hide one’s meaning from the law, or to exclude outsiders, or whether it is just a form of group bonding.

        The way rhyming slang works does tend to exclude those not ‘in the know’, as the substitution of one word for another often relies on reference to a key phrase, which, for the slang to be understood, must be known jointly by those communicating; for example, to get from ‘Hamsteads’ to ‘teeth’, one must be aware of Hampstead Heath.

        People like rhyming words in any language.

        For example, ‘hoity-toity’, higgledy-piggledy’, ‘namby-pamby’, ‘nitty-gritty’, ‘itsy-bitsy’, etc, etc.

        London rhyming slang examples:

        Apple and Pears, stairs.
        Barnet-Fair, hair.
        Bird-lime, time.
        Lath-and-plaster, master.
        Oats and chaff, footpath.

      • seallison says:

        Please no – not in Barney!

        • cielo62 says:

          Seallison- I had never heard of that rhyming slang before! In Oceans 11 the movie, one character said they were in Barney but the other guys had no idea what that was. As he said Barney Rubble- trouble! I love that movie!

          Sent from my iPod

      • Jun says:

        There’s certain phrases and slangs within any culture

        For example, I believe it is an Irish American slang, and it is the word “Patsy”

        In Hong Kong, a person who snitches on a gang is called a 25 boy

        I could go on

        • Patsy does not mean snitch in Irish slang…..

          If anything it describes a “chump” a “dupe” a “mark” for example…….another would be to use someone as a fall guy…..much as fogen bragged about others taking the fall for him?….they were his “patsys”


      • Jun says:

        I was not suggesting that Patsy means snitch

        I was simply suggesting it is a slang word, that I believe was invented by Irish Americans

        I then included a slang from Hong Kong for snitch

      • Jun says:


        My Paddy O contains barbeque for grilling

      • Oh I LOVE Cockney Rhyming Slang!!! I have a friend who grew up in London, and would use this, and crack us all up! Never knew what she was saying!

      • Malisha says:

        I’m not sure I understand the difference between Ebonics and jive, though.

        Remember Airplane? “I talk jive”?

        But this looks authoritative:


      • whonoze says:

        Ebonics is NOT slang. It’s a set of grammar rules, in which, its proponents argued, certain structures of African languages are imposed on an English lexicon. The classic example is the ‘Ebonics’ forms of the verb ‘to be’, which correspond to verb tenses that do not exist is English. Thus “He be hanging around the 7-11” is not a dialectical substitution of “He is hanging around the 7-11.” That would be “He hanging around the 7-11.” (The present tense is assumed.) Instead, “He be hanging around the 7-11” means “He is usually hanging around the 7-11.” or “He has been hanging around the 7-11.”

        Of course, any grammar can be abused, so if someone says “He be hanging around the 7-11” when they mean “He is hanging around the 7-11” they are being ungrammatical within their Ebonics.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I studied linguistics in 1980s – USA. Black American dialect was referred to then as Black English Venacular (BEV) and is a grammatical language – so when you see Treepers make fun of it and / or claim blacks don’t speak English, see that as a major slap in the face. Ebonics is a non-linguistic term and also can be considered insulting.

        • cielo62 says:

          So Two Sides To Every Story- Ebonics is therefore like Yiddish? I remember the movement included official recognition of Ebonics as a self standing language. Nowadays it is used as a pejorative in non academic circles. I suppose that disdain is also part of racism.

          Sent from my iPod

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ebonics – coined by a black educator and linking BEV to Africa, but eventually used by racists to criticize BEV – or now known as AAVE.

        “While the term is avoided by most linguists,[17] it is used elsewhere (such as on Internet message boards), often for ridiculing AAVE, particularly when this is inaccurately parodied as differing more from Standard American English than it really does.[18] ”

        You’ll see the Treepers use Eubonics but never AAVE, etc.

    • Malisha says:

      Mt.Man– That is exactly what I expect! You nailed it!

      Then they will put out an urgent request — send money so we can find Fogen! Then there will be a computer game, only $99.99 with an NRA membership — “FInd Fogen” and it will have graphic designers who print up pictures and you have to find Fogen in there (you can recognize him from his broken nose).

      HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

      You know I was thinking earlier today, how frustrated it must make Fogen and Fogdaddy and Fogmommy and Junior to read this blog, becuase although they will understand that we (nefariously) wish Fogen to be convicted and punished, they actually will not be able to understand what we write. I have a mental picture of them staring at the page and furrows deepening on their foreheads. “WTF? WTF? They’re nuts!”

      • Yup……Nuttier than a Squirrel turd 🙂

      • cielo62 says:

        Oh my God Malisha! I busted out laughing! “Find Fogen” a busted nose and a goatee. For extra points, find the schtruck, the tactical flashlight and the Honda key. 🙂

        Still chuckling

        Sent from my iPod

      • blushedbrown says:

        LOL with Malisha

        You crack me up!

      • @ Jun…..I don’t have a patio 😦

        I do have a fire pit 🙂

        A shooting range 🙂

        A sh*tload of trees 😐

        And a mine……Teller county Amazonite….only place in the states it’s found 🙂

        • cielo62 says:

          Mountainmanpat- NEAT! Amazonite mine; that must look cool on your home’s description. 🙂

          Sent from my iPod

        • Xena says:

          Okay, but do you have a cat and a dog, or a horse, a goat, a bird — so much as a goldfish? 🙂

          • As matter of fact I do have a dog….her name is Miss Mouse…

            Also a female partner……And a lot of wildlife 🙂

          • Xena says:

            As matter of fact I do have a dog….her name is Miss Mouse…

            Also a female partner……And a lot of wildlife 🙂

            ALRIGHT!!! Sounds like a welcoming place. Don’t forget to extend the invitation when we celebrate justice for Trayvon.

            Btw, my son saw a coyote across from our house last week. I’ve been threatening the silver foxes around here that if they keep coming, I’m going to have a fox fur coat next year. The rabbits ate up the raspberries this summer, and my granddog had fun chasing them through the yard. Only one snake this year. Yuk! I threw it in the fire pit, but I allow the frogs to live. 🙂

          • cielo62 says:

            If you’d leave the foxes alone, they’d take care of your bunny problem. Ecosystem, you know? 🙂 sorry, I’m partial to wildlife.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Any problems with Bears?…..had one break into one of the sheds 3 times this past summer 😦

          • cielo62 says:

            LOL! Wow! I’ve never dealt with bears. I mean REAL bears. I like them…. Far away from me!

            Sent from my iPod

          • blushedbrown says:




          • Hence the need for firearms….One has even tried to break into the cabin…..there is really no crime up here….vacation homes unoccupied for months out of the year and not bothered.

            Bears are another story…had a Cinnamon Bear and her cub crossing the property all summer…not a problem….this one Black Bear caused trouble all up and down the mountain.

            BTW Colo. is an “open carry” state….no need for a CCW.

            And yes…..Ya’ll come up for a fogen conviction (or suicide) party 🙂

          • blushedbrown says:

            I’ve never been to Col.

            I would love to see your land and maybe get some of that open mountain air. Eat some grub and maybe find some of those cool green gems….

            See ya at the victory party.!

          • My front door is at 9K ft. On 11 acres of mountainside.

            Mule Deer outside daily….Does with their Fawns….Bucks on occasion.

            Moved up here 4 years ago after 30 years in So. Cal.

            Haven’t been happier in my life 🙂

          • blushedbrown says:

            Oh my, you have found a slice of heaven on earth.

            Now I really want to go asap!

          • cielo62 says:

            Man that sounds beautiful!

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            When I lived closer to the Wisconsin border the young black bears would venture out. They weren’t a problem. Once they saw anything bigger, they wobbled back into the woods.

          • Xena says:

            If you’d leave the foxes alone, they’d take care of your bunny problem. Ecosystem, you know? 🙂 sorry, I’m partial to wildlife.

            But I like the cottontails. They also make good fur coats. (Just kiddin’) We have Jack rabbits too. I don’t mess with the foxes. They come to my front yard and say “Hi” then run off into the woods. There are times I find bird features in the midst of the flower garden — figure they served their portion in the circle of life — but I don’t take pleasure seeing that.

            At least with winter I don’t have to worry with the darn bats singing at 3 a.m. in the morning. My neighbor keeps her back porch spotlights on all night that attracts the bugs that attracts the bats.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Poor snake….
            You coud of made a nice belt for the coat or maybe some trimming on the cuff.

            Its getting late….

          • cielo62 says:

            Buenas noches. I’m off to bed as well.

            Sent from my iPod

          • blushedbrown says:

            Ok mi amiga, yo también

            Good Night People….

            A nice hot cup of tea and a piece of coffee cake, then off to bed…..

          • Xena says:

            Night-night blushedbrown.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Night Night,

            before I go, I have a question, I’ll check in the morning for an answer

            Do you know when GZ wrote his statement? Was it before the audio or after with Singleton, There is no time stamp on audio or written. I be curious, I think the audio was first, but I want to be 100% sure.

          • Xena says:

            @blushedbrown. This is from pg 34 of the 284 pg evidence dump.

            Written first in pertinent part:
            “Singleton talked with Det. Serino who asked her to get a statement from Zimmerman and she did. She didn’t know if the video system was working so she audio recorded the statement.”

            This is the second paragraph in pertinent part:
            “The Evidence Technician came and collected clothing and photos of Zimmerman. The injuries to the back of the head of Zimmerman appeared to be abrasions and not lacerations. Zimmerman did use the restroom and cleaned up before the interview. She advised him of his rights from a rights card. … “Zimmerman wrote his written statement. He was left alone to write it.”

            Logically, Singleton would need to advise GZ of his rights before she interviewed him, so my guess is that she interviewed him first, then left the room as he wrote his written statement.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Thank you!

          • Xena says:

            HA! I found that slimy critter because it left its skin on a blade of grass in the back yard as it slimed its way out of it. It was hiding under a bag of mulch nearby. I’m a city girl, but I can wield a bad spade shovel. 🙂

          • blushedbrown says:


      • Cercando Luce says:

        D’you say “Miss Mouse, are you within, hm-hmm, hm-hmm?”

        But what does Amazonite do? Why is it called Amazonite if it’s only found at your place?

  22. seallison says:

    There is so much more to this story than we will ever know, I am sure. I think Fogen has caused alot of problems for alot of people because of his one (of many) unthinkable act. It may be he is afraid of those close to him that, hopefully, will be on the hot seat in the near future. He blew it for his network – and that is a good thing for justice.

  23. Jun says:

    I find Omara’s $40,000 payment comment kind of funny

    Considering the security Fogenhats was asking for, $10,000 sounds like a bargain for that much service

    and paying $40G’s does not necessarily mean you paid the whole bill

    It is the same as if I bought a Lambourghini 2012 and told everyone I paid $40,000 already and Lambo was overcharging me, so it belongs to me although I did not pay the full bill for the car

  24. Xena says:

    Although I’ve mentioned it previously, there is something that I feel is very important in O’Mara’s motion to modify terms of release. We need to see it for what it was — a circumvention of Judge Lester’s order. Ultimately, it is my impression that this is why Judge Nelson denied the motion without stating her reason.

    When O’Mara motioned to modify terms of bond before Judge Lester, asking that GZ be allowed to leave Seminole County, Judge Lester said that if he coordinated with the GPS techs to track the device outside of Seminole County, then he could file another motion and the court would consider it.

    O’Mara’s last motion on this issue completely disregarded Judge Lester’s order. Let’s consider for a moment that O’Mara could have coordinated with the GPS techs. If so, then why ask for removal of the GPS?

    At the same time, GZ gets a new defense fund administrator who stops paying the security firm. That means more money is available in the fund, right?

    Without the GPS and with about $20,000 in his defense fund, it does appear that GZ planned to flee. We know he prefers that rather than face the music. If this is true, then he must now be thinking of an alternative plan to accomplish the same goal.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      I’m sorry Xena, I think MO’M’s zodiac does not make him as paternal and caring as you had figured. He seems to be slipping down into the morass inexorably.

      • Xena says:

        I’m sorry Xena, I think MO’M’s zodiac does not make him as paternal and caring as you had figured. He seems to be slipping down into the morass inexorably.

        Look at it this way — it’s because of his fatherly characteristics that got him into the slippery slope. O’Mara was not obligated to do anything associated with the defense fund. It only became relevant AFTER GZ’s bond was revoked because of his deception on the court.

        So here we have O’Mara with one of two options; i.e., take over control of the defense fund to convince the court that GZ would not use the money to flee and ask for a bond re-do hearing, or leave GZ in jail. O’Mara’s paternal instincts kicked in. He arranged and became responsible for GZ’s babysitters, his living quarters, and his financial allowance.

        • cielo62 says:

          He (MOM) should have left GZ in jail where his “security” is paid for. As they say, no good deed goes unpunished. 😉

          Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            He (MOM) should have left GZ in jail where his “security” is paid for. As they say, no good deed goes unpunished. 😉

            That’s the way I see it. Had O’Mara not motioned for the bond do-over and GZ disagreed, he could have fired O’Mara and hired another attorney. In the alternative, MOM should not have taken over the defense fund and if GZ was granted bond, sent GZ monthly invoices, and allowed him to deal with his lifestyle and personal problems while out on bail.

      • Jun says:

        Omara could have left Fogenhats in jail and just kept the 100 Grand for the bond company so that there is money but…

      • seallison says:

        Xena – That is exactly why I have emphasized the point that MOM did NOT stop payment to the security company. The administrators are responsible to the fund and Fogens expenses. I think MOM has been kept in the dark or deceived about money matters – just like the amount of money originally in the fund and the passport. He has been playing ball for awhile because he was conned, IMO. Now, he has caught on and he is screwed.

        • Xena says:

          Xena – That is exactly why I have emphasized the point that MOM did NOT stop payment to the security company. The administrators are responsible to the fund and Fogens expenses.

          Absolutely. MOM may have agreed for the security, but the trust fund administrator is who allocates payments. He should bring in the trust fund administrator as a third party.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Could most of this drama could be Fogen’s doing – and OM sort of reacting at this point, stuck with doing his client’s bidding? Or does that excuse him too much?

      • Jun says:

        But the administrator works for Omara and Fogenhats The 3rd


        the admin being a person who understands financial laws and statutes would have asked Omara or Fogenhats about the payment to the security company, seeing that he handles paying them, and since the admin just took over, he would ask them to double check if he pays the AIS or not…

        so in the end it is still on the people named in the suit

        Looks like Omara will have to sell his car to make his end of the payment of the $27,000

        • cielo62 says:

          LOL! Knowing GZ is just

          Sent from my iPod

        • cielo62 says:

          It’s bad luck knowing GZ!

          Sent from my iPod

        • Xena says:

          But the administrator works for Omara and Fogenhats The 3rd

          Not so sure, Jun. Remember there’s a new independent administrator selected by GZ. The security company said they were being paid regularly until the new administrator took over.

          • cielo62 says:

            Wouldn’t the new administrator need a good reason to stop paying the security company?

            Sent from my iPod

          • blushedbrown says:

            How about the reason being, ” We have no more stinkin’ money”.

          • cielo62 says:

            This saga is so dang funny! I mean, the murder is pure evil. But the circus surrounding these clowns… It’s like a bad movie script!

            Sent from my iPod

          • blushedbrown says:

            I know this is serious business about the murder case. We all take that very seriously.

            But dang you are right, they keep supplying the material. We have to take a break sometimes and laugh.

          • Xena says:

            Wouldn’t the new administrator need a good reason to stop paying the security company?

            Yeah like, not having enough money. 🙂

            Around the time that GZ offered to sell his autograph, O’Mara said the defense fund was down to about $13,000.

      • Jun says:

        My point is the administrator works for Omara & Fogenhats. The administrator is not responsible for the estate and can give advice but in the end he takes orders on what to do with the money. The admin could not be held responsible for choices made with the money as they simply just administrate the funds.

        • Xena says:

          The admin could not be held responsible for choices made with the money as they simply just administrate the funds.

          That is true under normal circumstances but we’re talking about GZ, the independent administrator he selected — the one who is also supposed to be involved in fund raising efforts.

      • Jun says:

        Sounds like Omara may have been better off not bonding Fogenhats out, if that $13,000 figure is real

        But if GZ wanted the admin to fundraise, I believe the autographs thing was all Fogenhats idea

        • Xena says:

          But if GZ wanted the admin to fundraise, I believe the autographs thing was all Fogenhats idea

          When it comes to fund raising for a person charged with 2nd degree murder, it is pretty limited to community events IF the community supports that individual.

          Fund raising is not the same as begging, which is what Junior is doing. Fund raising is holding an event of some sort, a bake sale, spaghetti dinner, etc., where people donate their services and the product and the money is then given to the subject person. Essentially, fund raising is selling something. So yes, the idea of selling autographed thank you cards would be fund raising and the best that GZ could come up with.

          He and ShelLIE could sell Avon online. Maybe Junior could ask a shooting range to hold a fund raiser.

          • And if fogen’s selling something to raise money……..

            Has he registered as a non profit?

            If not?…..Then I can see he a big shelLIE in another lawsuit with the IRS…..unclaimed income.

            Come to think of it, he has to file his taxes prior to the SYG hearing…..seeing his tax return might be entertaining in itself what with deductions for security, motels & such

          • Xena says:

            Come to think of it, he has to file his taxes prior to the SYG hearing…..seeing his tax return might be entertaining in itself what with deductions for security, motels & such

            This was my first year assisting an attorney with a tax case, and it involved an ERISA settlement. Thinking about that, if the IRS gave his client such hell over an ERISA settlement when the law is clear that it’s exempt, I can only imagine the hell GZ is going to be put through by the IRS. . First, since he asked for the money, it might not be considered gifts and if not gifts, it’s income that he will need to pay taxes on.

            It takes forever to get approved as a 501-3C and collecting money to cover personal expenses does not qualify as a not-for-profit. The government already has a remedy for defendants who cannot afford to live free on bail — stay in jail while awaiting trial.

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena- thank you for your observation. I didn’t think the money GZ got AFTER he set up his GZLDF were gifts, since he asked for that support. BUT the bulk before that that went into GZs personal Peter Pan account is another story. It seemed more grass roots than planned begging. It bugs me that he might not have to pay taxes on that part.

            Sent from my iPod

          • If fogen paid off personal debt, as recorded in their cryptic phone conversations from jail……Sam’s Club, Target etc.

            I don’t know why it wouldn’t have to be claimed as income?

            Also any fund that was to cover his “living expenses” I would think should also be declared as income.

            I mean he’s no TV preacher…..He was a used car salesman tho…..kinda the same ilk 🙂

          • cielo62 says:

            Lonnie- come April , we will know if those “gifts” are truly “income”. If anybody knows income, it’s the IRS!

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            I wish he’d file chapter 7 bankruptcy to write-off the debt to the security firm. He would have to dissolve his defense fund (close it) and the bankruptcy trustee might just go back and file adversary complaints against everyone paid out of that defense fund as preference payments. O’Mara could also file a claim. If so and approved by the court, all the money is returned and then distributed evenly among creditors.

            That should teach GZ not to profile his supporters.

          • Xena says:

            BUT the bulk before that that went into GZs personal Peter Pan account is another story.

            Oh, but he launched therealgeorgezimmerman website to get that money. He asked for it. All of it is his personal income.

          • So now a new website to pay fogens tax bill?

            Or will he just leave it for shelLIE to deal with once he’s behind bars.

            That would be one hell of a reason to file for an extension on filing your taxes……

            “I may be spending the rest of my life in prison come June……Can we income average?” 🙂

            Happy New Year to All 🙂

      • leander22 says:

        Ultimately, it is my impression that this is why Judge Nelson denied the motion without stating her reason.

        I haven’t finished reading, Xena, but one note on this, if you allow. It was my impression that the defense stated that the modification of the terms of release where mainly to get beyond the prohibition for Fogen to contact friends (witnesses?) and Nelson simply stated that she read judge Lester’s judgments (or whatever it was technically) and it did contain a prohibition concerning contacts to friends. It may have been a ruse, they may have had something different on their minds. Strictly one should read both judge Lester’s documents and the motions and compare.

        • Xena says:

          I haven’t finished reading, Xena, but one note on this, if you allow. It was my impression that the defense stated that the modification of the terms of release where mainly to get beyond the prohibition for Fogen to contact friends (witnesses?)

          There was a separate motion for clarification concerning GZ’s contact with State witnesses. Judge Lester’s first bond order forbade GZ to have contact with State witnesses. His second bond order was that the defendant have no contact with the victim’s family accept through legal counsel for pre-trial matters.

          Well, GZ violated that condition when he addressed Trayvon’s family when on Hannity’s program. It is my opinion, had Tracy and Sybrina not responded, the state would have brought that violation to the court’s attention and asked that GZ’s bond be revoked.

      • leander22 says:

        sorry, I may have gotten into the wrong thread, but this is not what I meant:

        and Nelson simply stated that she read judge Lester’s judgments (or whatever it was technically) and it did contain a prohibition concerning contacts to friends.

        She stated, as far as she could tell it did contain “no” prohibition to contact friends.

      • leander22 says:

        Essentially, fund raising is selling something.

        That’s on a more amateurish level, only. At one point in my life I was pondering about adding fundraising to my PR expertise, when I became aware that issues I would really like to support.

        The basic standard for fundraising usually is some type tax exempt institution. Nothing is sold but the idea, to do something in a non-economical field. At no time anything is sold in this context, beyond the fact that the endeavor is not an economical but furthering whatever issues of the larger well.

        I would assume that concerning taxes the money gained by Fogen and friends is tax exempt as long as they can prove it has been spent on the issues the fundraising was based on. In other words there is no gain. Income is balanced by expenses.

        It’s true there was not any statement concerning debts, but I doubt any judge would not consider this a part of the larger context. Something like, had he not shot Trayvon Martin he would have kept his job and would have paid his debts successively from his income.

        The side that supports him considered it wise to pay the debts due to interests, I followed them at the time on “TalkLeft”. Our tax system is much more complicated than yours but it would still be based on income versus expenses. That is, whatever has been spent cannot be taxed.

    • seallison says:

      I think Fogen is keeping money matters a secret from MOM because MOM doesn’t seem to have a clue. I also believe the Mom and Pop hiding out fund was orchestrated by Fogen in order to keep money secrets from MOM and the courts – untouchable.

      While they would have us believe the fund has dried up, it may very well be that the Fogen benefactors have used the parents charity to fund the cause.

      The grifters know who to target for money – just like fly-by-night home renovators and telephone solicitors.

      • Jun says:

        I dont think so because it is incredibly stupid and so easily traceable

        The parents were the ones offering collateral for everything and they can be investigated as well

        and the internet is forever

      • gbrbsb says:

        The strange thing to me is that according to MOM doners were concerned that the fund was going to be used for GZ´s defence and has had to assure them it was only going to be used for GZ´s living expenses and would only if there was any excess would that be used to pay his legal costs. This was an announcement on on GZlegalcase but then it makes no sense considering the fund is actually called The George Zimmerman Defence Fund or thereabouts.

      • seallison says:

        Jun –

        The justice system has no right or reason to look into the financial affairs of the elder Fogens, traceable or not.

        They provided the collateral required, so why would their money be an issue to LE now – an issue to be investigated.

      • seallison says:

        gbrbsb – I think alot of people neglected to read the small print and were duped as a consequence. Once MOM announced he had not gotten a red cent for Fogens defense, alot of the benefactors caught on. I can see people wanting to see someone get a good lawyer. But, when they saw his living expenses!!!! WTH – many people dont make that kind of money in a year – gross. He doesnt even have to pay income taxes on it. Grifter or what!

      • Jun says:

        Because they were asked to put up the collateral for the bond and as well used services of security and are related to the defendant, so, their stories will need to be checked out for authenticity

        That is why

        Just like how Shellie lied in court regarding the account and had her accounts subpoenaed

        the same can happen to the parents of the defendant, as they are the ones putting words forward for collateral and such and will likely be used by the defendant regarding any owing monies

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Actually, if you’ve followed Fogen supporters’ comments all along, you’ll find that many are happy to donate to his living expenses and anything he wants or needs because he is as pure as the new-driven snow and has simply defended himself from a murderous thug, and all the evidence proves it, don’tcha know? Gee whiz!

      • seallison says:

        Jun – the elder Fogens do not owe the security company. They are not named on the suit. They have no involvement in the matter. Their money is their own. They did what the court required of them so there is no need for any investigation into their financial affairs.

        Can someone out there help me with this.

        • Xena says:

          Can someone out there help me with this.

          It depends on circumstances. If GZ flees, everyone in his family will be investigated for making that possible and that might include their bank accounts.

      • Jun says:

        The fact remains that the parents are involved. They involved themselves. What if the bond company wants collateral? The parents put up the house for collateral and claimed to be indigent. If the paper trail leads to the parents giving Fogenhats money, it will be found out rather fast, since they are taking donations via the internet.

      • Jun says:

        They may not be named in the suit, but where is the defendant going to turn to for money? Where will he hide the money? The parents did use some of the services according to the claims from the AIS suit

        • Xena says:

          Where will he hide the money? The parents did use some of the services according to the claims from the AIS suit

          Alright, let’s get into the Zimmerman family dynamics. Papa and Mama Zim allege that they receive threats, right? So why the hell didn’t George and ShelLIE move in with them so that the same security for the same price protect them all? He could have saved about $5,000 a month on the kitchenette and extra hotel room for the guards. Papa Zim would not need to rent hotel rooms moving around like vagabonds.

          So, this supportive family can only be supportive when they’re not under the same roof.

          • That’s one hell of a concept…..
            In reality?….it does make sense !!!!!!!

          • cielo62 says:

            Based on what we’ve gleaned about the family dysfunction, I don’t think they could stand being cooped up together. The security would be separating THEM from killing each on a daily basis!

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            The security would be separating THEM from killing each on a daily basis!

            You mean, SYG does not apply under Papa Zim’s roof? (snicker)

          • blushedbrown says:

            Excellent Xena. Makes damn good sense.

          • Xena says:

            Excellent Xena. Makes damn good sense.

            Which we know that the Zimmermans lack.

            Or maybe all along GZ didn’t want O’Mara to receive a dime in legal fees. I remember that he told ShelLIE that money was for them. Papa Zim? Well, if the public gives his son over $200,000 in one month, why not him?

          • Xena says:

            @mountainmanpat. Kinda makes one wonder if the Zimmermans are undisciplined in living within their means.

      • leander22 says:


        I think Fogen is keeping money matters a secret from MOM because MOM doesn’t seem to have a clue. I also believe the Mom and Pop hiding out fund was orchestrated by Fogen in order to keep money secrets from MOM and the courts – untouchable.

        With the exception of mom and pop’s specific money matters, in other words the funds they raise, Fogen cannot keep money matters secret from O’Mara, and I suppose that is your MOM.

        I think he outsourced money matters since his expertise is criminal law and family law, no tax or tax exempt law or the large field of economical laws as far as I know.

        Strictly Mom and Pop could provide some type of escape road, but I wonder if the average Fogen supporter thinks about it and supports them.

        O’Mara is well informed by the respective professionals in the context it feels. They tell him all he needs to know and as the story about security shows us he is still able to approve expenses and thus access the fund somehow.

        For all I can tell O’Mara could be paid directly for his efforts in the O’Mara case and he could still tell us he took no penny from the GZ fund. It wouldn’t be a lie.

    • Xena….If MOM is setting everything up that would make it easy for fogen to flee (without even admitting to fogen, just a kind of a wink-wink, that that is what he is actually doing), wouldn’t this be an easy way for MOM to “wash his hands” of fogen…claim that he knew nothing about it…..still get paid by the state….and walk away seemingly uneffected?

      • Great observation…..

        MOM has to know he has a hopeless case…..with a client that won’t cooperate……

        What better way for him to save face?

      • Great observation.

        MOM has to know he has a case he cannot win….unless he’s a total moron?

        To have fogen go on the lamb would be an excellent way for MOM to save face.

        Once fogen is captured would he have the same defense team as prior to him fleeing?

        • cielo62 says:

          I believe MOM has been waiting for the furor to die down surrounding this case. That hasn’t happened and probably won’t. I just don’t feel that GZ can prepare a credible and/or possible escape plan. MOM’s best plan would be to take the loss and make a ton of money writing his own “tell all” book. I know I’d buy it!

          Sent from my iPod

      • Xena says:

        Xena….If MOM is setting everything up that would make it easy for fogen to flee (without even admitting to fogen, …

        I don’t believe O’Mara is knowingly setting everything up for GZ to flee. Rather, I believe that O’Mara is caught up in GZ’s deception and a default belief of whatever he says. As we know, GZ lies. He tells the type of lies that if you were to question him on every single one, you would tire of going around the same mountain and just give in — if you liked him, or were afraid of him, that is.

    • leander22 says:

      xena, we are definitively somehow hindered by the fact that we can only use one, was it link in our comments. I wish I could follow your argument better.

      But strictly, I do not think that Fogen, advised by O’Mara (the Dersh, Jeralyn Merritt et al) does not consider to flee, he firmly believes that he will go free.

      Still I appreciate what exact documents you are alluding to.

      I have to admit that I occasionally have troubles to pick the correct document here.

      But yes to a certain extend I have made up my mind about Fogen and fleeing is not one of his options it feels to me. I also appreciate that Nelson has a degree in psychology in this context. He convinced quite a few people around himself he had to defend his life, it worked well on SPD officers and witnesses, and is a much too conformed character to consider fleeing.

  25. whonoze says:

    Apologies for mistaking the wound on Trayvon’s finger as coming from a ring he wasn’t wearing. IIRC the wound was on his ring finger, is that right?? Regardless, I’m thinking the the little cut on Travon’s digit and the little cut on the bridge of GZ’s nose happened at the same time, from the same event.

    • blushedbrown says:

      Trayon Martin’s autopsy revealed a small abrasion on Martin’s left ring finger.

      a small abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch in size – on his left ring finger below the knuckle.

      • Malisha says:

        That could be from anything, at any time, and doesn’t have to relate to the contact with Fogen at all. On any one given day if I do not get any scrapes at all on my hands or arms, I haven’t done too much that particular day.

        • blushedbrown says:

          Agreed . The abrasion could of come from anything else, and time. I also take into considertion that he was possibly defending himself against GZ also.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Am I correct in thinking that the prosecution only has to disclose exculpatory evidence?

        • You are not correct.

          The prosecution also has to identify all of the witnesses it intends to call during its case in chief and provide copies of their reports and statements.

          It also has to provide an inventory of all of the evidence seized from the defendant, including all affidavits for search warrants and all oral, written or videotaped statements obtained from the defendant.

      • gbrbsb says:

        I should have added to my comment above exculpatory evidence at this time as I presume all evidence would have to be disclosed sooner or later.

      • leander22 says:

        I am with Malisha concerning the little injury on Martin’s finger, but could but it must not be related to the event.

        Xena, with Ricardo below taking the pulse I mean Raimondo.

        Still my main point is that Stacie McCoy seems to be at the center of a cover up concerning time line and events on the scene, especially surrounding supposed first aid given to Trayvon. I would appreciate it if someone proved me wrong in this context. 😉

    • Xena says:

      IMO, the abrasion is a defensive wound, caused by GZ’s tactical flashlight. It would be common to raise the hand, palm forward, when seeing something coming at you. Also, it might explain how the iced tea came out of the bag. The tactical flashlight could have bounced back and hit GZ on the nose, but I’m more inclined to believe that by shooting with one hand, the recoil hit him in the nose.

      I tend to pay attention to what GZ omits in his stories, and in all of his stories, he fails to mention either flashlight.

      • blushedbrown says:

        Considering it on his left hand, not his right, which is his dominant hand , I’m going with a defensive wound as a result of him defending himself.

        • Xena says:

          Considering it on his left hand, not his right, which is his dominant hand , I’m going with a defensive wound as a result of him defending himself.

          Makes sense to me, which is why GZ not once says what he did with the tactical flashlight; when or why he dropped it.

          • blushedbrown says:

            That makes sense. I can actually see GZ taking a swing at Trayvon with the flashlight and he brought up his hand to deflect it. Hence the small abrasion. Hmmm. No wonder he doesn’t mention it.

          • Xena says:

            That makes sense. I can actually see GZ taking a swing at Trayvon with the flashlight and he brought up his hand to deflect it. Hence the small abrasion. Hmmm. No wonder he doesn’t mention it.

            GZ’s lies in his re-enactment are obvious, but they do lead to other questions. For instance, if his swiping motions are true, then he was swiping at Trayvon with his tactical flashlight in his hand.

            Also, he never mentions when he turned on the key chain flashlight, neither when he dropped it and why. Thus, he dropped a working flashlight at the T, while continuing to hold on to a non-working tactical flashlight that ended up in the debris field with Trayvon’s body 40 ft from where the GZ says the altercation began.

            IMO, he omits the flashlights from his various, inconsistent stories because to do so requires when, where and how, that will not gel with his line of jive.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Hmmm again. This is making me think. Picturing…. Gz ends call. Puts phone away. Gun is still holstered. He doesn’t want to have gun out right then and there, because he has to start an altercation to use it. Has keys in hand with little flashilight on. Carrys tactical flashlight in other hand. Trayvon turns around “Why are you following me? Thinking he may be a cop, this gives him an oppurtunity to identify himself, he doesn’t. Now Trayvon knows this is no cop just some weirdo following him around. He replies “whatcha doing around here? further letting Trayvon know he still isn’t saying who he and why he should answer any of his questions. Carrying a tactical flashlight like cops do, he still isn’t sure about who he is, arguing back and forth only reassures Trayvon this guy is up to no good. Defensive postures are taken. GZ swings with flashlight first. Drops key/flashlight in right hand. Trayvon blocks, gets cut on finger. Decides to make a run for it some 40 yards down but GZ grabs at his shirts, Dee Dee hears Get off Get off. Trayvon’s phone and tactical flashlight drop near each other because Fogen has gotten a hold of his shirt and drops tactical and Trayvon phone drops because GZ has gotten a hold of his shirt. You know the rest, just speculating again.

          • Xena says:

            I agree with a few exceptions.

            GZ swings with flashlight first. Drops key/flashlight in right hand. Trayvon blocks, gets cut on finger. Decides to make a run for it some 40 yards down but GZ grabs at his shirts, Dee Dee hears Get off Get off.

            It is my sincere belief that GZ entered the T from the south or in between the buildings to cut off Trayvon’s path, as he assumed that Trayvon was going for the back gate. I also believe that Trayvon was close to Ms. Green’s house, and did begin walking away in the opposite direction from GZ after seeing him approach.

            This would explain how Trayvon said he saw the creepy guy again (in front of him) and subsequently said that the creepy guy was “behind” him.

            Re: The key chain flashlight at the T mystery.
            The more I think about Jon taking the photo of the back of GZ’s head, compared to the darkness of other photos he took, the more I think about that key chain flashlight being on and dropped there because that is where Jon took the photo of GZ’s head. According to a witness, that is the direction where GZ walked after he killed Trayvon.

            The taking of that photo while making a phone call is also something that GZ omits in his stories.

          • blushedbrown says:



            This would explain how Trayvon said he saw the creepy guy again (in front of him) and subsequently said that the creepy guy was “behind” him.

            IIRC, months ago, you had made a great catch in an interview or written statement by GZ, that he walked back “towards” him.

            I’m trying to remember how that had fitted in on the possiblity of where he came from.

            Damn, now I have to go a digging….unless you remember?

          • Xena says:

            Damn, now I have to go a digging….unless you remember?

            I think it was in GZ’s interview with Singleton and Serino. I will look to make sure.

          • blushedbrown says:


            searching comment


            searching movie

          • Xena says:

            Well, while searching for GZ’s statement that Trayvon was coming towards him, I noticed another inconsistency. In his re-enactment, GZ said that he usually puts his phone in his jacket pocket, reached for it there but he must have put it in his jean’s pocket. In his interview for the voice stress test, he said that he reached into his pants pocket for his phone but must have put it in his jacket pocket.

          • blushedbrown says:

            IIRC, he changes it to he pulled out his phone to call
            Then he changes it to he couldn’t find it
            then he changes it to I can’t remember

          • Xena says:

            IIRC, he changes it to he pulled out his phone to call
            Then he changes it to he couldn’t find it
            then he changes it to I can’t remember

            Yep, and he tells Serino and Singleton that he was standing on RVC getting an address while he was on the NEN call saying “Okay” to “We don’t need you to do that.”

          • blushedbrown says:



            Did some digging.

            Recording one with Singleton @13:40 he says he got his cell phone out to call 911.


            Noticed a whole bunch of other things, getting some notes together.

            Just for starters, he is relaying his “story” in a very disjointed fashion. Singleton is an excellent interviewer. I’ve noticed this thing GZ does when he is retelling someone something he relies on peoples feedback on how to proceed on how to answer.

            Singleton does not interupt. She waits for the whole story. Then she goes back to key points and questions him. Which of course he changes because she questioned him so now he has to correct it or change and try to make it fit, if that makes any sense to you.

            When she starts asking about his cell phone, this is when he starts f**king up his story. Then he reverts to just yes mam.

            @22:15 He says “When I walk back TOWARDS him…

            I thought he jumped out of the bushes…

            BDLR has this in the bag.

          • cielo62 says:

            You mean, the little bushes? Suitable to hide a chihuahua?

            Sent from my iPod

          • blushedbrown says:

            (read in the voice of the taco bell dog)

            Yo quiero Taco Bell


          • cielo62 says:


            Sent from my iPod

          • blushedbrown says:

            Si ese maricón piensa que se está saliendo con la que está muy equivocado.

          • cielo62 says:

            LOL! Hey, is there a Spanish version of “LOL”?

            Sent from my iPod

          • blushedbrown says:

            good question

          • blushedbrown says:

            I just realized my spanish is as broken as my English! I don’t write well in either language! Ha!

          • cielo62 says:

            S’okay. I got it and agreed! 🙂

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            Which of course he changes because she questioned him so now he has to correct it or change and try to make it fit, if that makes any sense to you.

            Yes. It makes sense. GZ is a deceiver.

            @22:15 He says “When I walk back TOWARDS him…

            I thought he jumped out of the bushes…

            HEY!!! You found it! I’m so glad that you remembered about it too. GZ has lots of Freudian slips.

            Now, think about the “back” part of that statement. It conveys that GZ saw Trayvon as he walked down the T. He was in back of him. But cop training tells GZ not to approach from the back but cut-off from the front. So, GZ made his way down another street to enter the T from the south to walk “back towards” Trayvon.

            Did you catch on Dave’s latest video where he keeps the camera on a cut-through between the buildings and there are bushes?

            BDLR has this in the bag.

            Like Corey said at the press conference, the evidence is there — all they had to do was connect the dots.

          • blushedbrown says:


            Yes, I found it. I remember that you had said it awhile back and I just couldn’t remember was it on paper or audio.

            I have such a hard time with the “directional”aspects of this case. Such as North, South coming back towards south gate. I can’t get it! It’s frustrating for me because I can remember dates, times, links, peoples names, but ask me how far the back entrance is from the front gate and I get this blank look on my face. Even with all the help from the maps and work from Tchocpi and others, I still can’t wrap this around my head around that. I don’t know what the blockage is for me to understand it. I look at the maps on the computer andd nothing, brain freeze.

            I think if I had a big map per say that I could put on my wall, with little push pins, that I can understand.

            That just gave me an idea. Do that. Make a mental note to myself : purchase map of Complex get colored push pins.

            Ok, now I think I can get my tea and cake and go to bed.

            Night Night….

      • Jun says:

        The defensive wound story is a possibility considering how miniscule it is and the people who testify that Trayvon was not a fighter

        If Trayvon was a martial artist, we would have seen way more damage, I am talking about broken bones all over the defendant, and he may have even disarmed the defendant

        so considering that, a minor weak attack sounds about right from Trayvon

      • seallison says:

        Fogen is quick to point out, when listening to the NEN call, that the knocking sound is smacking his flash light because he couldn’t get it to work. Serino says – well it is on now.!

        • blushedbrown says:


          I would give my left pinky toe to see that particualr interview of the review of the NeN call, especially the part of when both officers are standing there playing it when the part comes up with the sounds of the racking of the gun, before the sound of the flashlight. Notice in the audio nobody says anything when that comes up. Boy oh Boy just to see any expression on any of them in particular GZ would be worth the toe. 🙂

      • I hope that he’s asked about the flashlights in his deposition.

        • Xena says:

          The State is not deposing GZ. He has a constitutional right to never open his mouth. His problem is that he did open his mouth before and after he was charged, and he is the only person able to testify for what he felt and believed giving his just cause to use deadly force. The State is going to tear him to shreds at his immunity hearing during cross-examination.

      • Malisha says:

        The little abrasion on Trayvon’s finger could also have been made by the barrel of Fogen’s gun as he (Trayvon) perhaps tried to push away the gun that Fogen was pointing at him while interrogating him. Really, anything during the encounter could have made that scrape, and anything before that encounter could have made that scrape. It was not deep enough to bleed, apparently.

      • Jun says:

        There was no Trayvon DNA found on the holster or on the gun, so the gun scraping Trayvon did not happen

        • Xena says:

          There was no Trayvon DNA found on the holster or on the gun, so the gun scraping Trayvon did not happen

          I hadn’t had a chance to reply to Malisha yet, so thanks for offering this, and I agree. Throwing his hand up in a defensive gesture might also account for how the iced tea came out of the bag.

      • leander22 says:

        thanks for starting this exquisite thread. I am struggling with the term: Tactical Flashlight Is that what it is? Do I remember correctly, witness 13 uses the term.

        These flashlights really puzzle me. I am assuming the little one is the one still working and the supposedly tactical flashlight is not working anymore. This may be the reason why it registers so prominently in some reports, e.g. Santiago’s.

        Xena concerning dropping it there later. The teacher indeed tells us that he walked back to the T, but if you look at her drawing he passes the tree and moves to the other side. He obviously could have dropped everything on the way there. See the teacher’s drawing, I guess it is, 7th supplementary discovery page 3.

        The problem is, Fogen obviously will state that he went there since he expected police from that direction.

        Witness #13 states, that Fogen sounded as if he was on the phone as he approached him. If so, whom did he call? Besides he seems to say he photographed Fogen when he was already cuffed. But why not his face? Only the back of his head?

        I wish I knew more about the abbreviations on the call logs. Reading them to some extend is guesswork. Also, we do not have the cell phone logs of Fogen. Which reminds me of BDLR’s statements when Fogen was on the witness stand during the 1st bond hearing.

        • Xena says:

          Besides he seems to say he photographed Fogen when he was already cuffed. But why not his face? Only the back of his head?

          GZ was not handcuffed when Jon took the photo of the back of his head. It clearly shows GZ’s hand holding a cell phone up to his right ear. After he killed Trayvon and was discovered by witnesses on Trayvon’s back, GZ walked towards the T. He saw someone with a flashlight and thought it was a cop, but it was Jon. Jon is not telling the truth about the timing either. He had time to take three photos before Smith appeared on the scene. That in fact, one report by another member of LE says that when he arrived, Off. Smith was holding two men at gunpoint. Hence, the reasonable question by Smith, “Who shot him?”

          It was the other officer who walked over to Trayvon and commanded him to raise his hands, and getting no response, checked for a pulse and found none.

      • leander22 says:

        It was the other officer who walked over to Trayvon and commanded him to raise his hands,

        That’s Ricardo Ayala, he supposedly screamed at Trayvon lying face down on the ground. He knew there was a shot and he feels the victim is dissembling by lying face down on the ground and not moving? Does that sound likely? (SA0 investigation, page 2, 2nd discovery)

        It takes close to 3 minutes before Smith is observed as having Fogen at gunpoint. And before that point yelling is reported by witnesses going on outside.

        My suspicion is that the “favorite witnesses” of Jeralyn Merritt, or reliable as she calls it, were all influenced by Fogen, or influenced in turn other witnesses who they called after the event.

        I am not sure about Fogen being on a cell phone while photographed, admittedly, but I respect people “reading” it that way. If he was, why does he need to ask witness #13, or Jon as you write, to call his wife? Did he call Osterman?

        I wonder if some radio ID’s on the call logs especially the ones starting with P, like P 1839 are connected with witness calls. If we didn’t have these logs we would be even more at a loss concerning the correct time line of officers on the scene, and considering it takes time to enter the data, it can’t be completely correct times.

        I just checked the 7th discovery. Remember Stacie McCoy, who modifies Smith and Ayala’s reports quite possibly in her function as on scene supervisor is supposedly involved in CPR on Trayvon together with Raimondo and Ayala?

        Her radio ID is S0102, 7th supplementary discovery,

        arrives at: ARV, 19:41:01, page 13
        en route: ENR, 19:17:52, page 15
        dispatched: DIS, 19:17:52, page 15

        How can she have been involved in CPR, considering Trayvon was already pronounced dead at 19:30 by fire and rescue?

        I am obsessed with the supposed CPR efforts, admittedly. What mistake could I make? But this is the source of my distrust in reports.

        • Xena says:

          I am not sure about Fogen being on a cell phone while photographed, admittedly, but I respect people “reading” it that way.

          Jon’s photo of the back of GZ’s head clearly shows him holding a phone up to his right ear.

          If he was, why does he need to ask witness #13, or Jon as you write, to call his wife? Did he call Osterman

          Maybe he did call ShelLIE but didn’t get around to tell her everything, or maybe he called someone else and did not have time to call ShelLIE before Smith arrived? I don’t know Leander. GZ leaves the photo op and call from his stories. But, if pictures don’t lie, then he was on the phone when it was taken.

      • leander22 says:

        Xena, let me add within the limits of my basic caveats hinted at in my comment above concerning anything connected with first aid attempts:

        It was the other officer who walked over to Trayvon and commanded him to raise his hands, and getting no response, checked for a pulse and found none.

        Ayala yelled at Trayvon lying face down on the ground and Ricardo supposedly checked Trayvon’s pulse after both had turned Trayvon around. If there had been any legimate attempts at live saving measures, we wouldn’t the troubles surrounding the “cold can” in his center pocket.

        It actually feels that Smith report on matters is the most reliable in this context, he doesn’t even try to pretend that any officer beyond fire and rescue was involved in fist aid.

        Not that anybody could possibly have helped Trayvon, but I think it has never been attempted. After all there could have been air rescue and he could have pronounced dead in hospital and not kept on the scene to get his fingerprints for hours. Notice Ayala is very active in this context too. If I remember correctly.

        • onlyiamunitron says:

          Air rescue–Medivac helicopter–was inquired about but was unavailable due to the rainy weather.

          There’s mention of it somewhere in one of those 100+ page PDFs of official reports.


    • Jun says:

      the small cut is probably from the wristlock Fogenhats applied on the victim

    • seallison says:

      If you look at the murderers beautifully manicured fingernails, my guess is that the abrasion to Trayvons finger occurred when the Fogen grabbed him at one point. Because Fogens nails were not analyzed, whether or not he had Trayvons DNA under his nails will never be determined.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Wasn’t Fogen and Shellie talking a couple of times about those beautifully manicured fingernails on the jailhouse tapes? I vaguely remember it…I think he mentioned that he wanted to cut his nails and in a different call he tells her got to cut them or she asks if he got to cut them. Whatever it was, I thought it was odd. I mean…you’re in jail for murder2, you haven’t seen your wife and when you get to talk to her on the phone you’re worried about cutting your nails?

      • leander22 says:

        Because Fogens nails were not analyzed, whether or not he had Trayvons DNA under his nails will never be determined.

        good point, seallison, another odd aka, that triggers nothing for me. But at the same time it always feels it should. 😉

        Could this be the point where Fogen’s amateurish attempts at profiling and the SPD’s own rules in the context met? No need to do this, black guy. All the ones arrested have been young black guys after all. I start to get interested in the history of profiling lately.

      • leander22 says:

        Chris, I missed this. Could you find it. For whatever reason it triggers a déjà vu, without strong memory traces. Did his studies teach him that?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Striking Fogen with the cell phone might cause a corresponding cut to the inside of the finger. I’ve often thought the small cuts on the back of Fogens head might also have been caused with fist holding cell phone.

      • leander22 says:

        Which strictly brings us back to the fact that we would have liked much more of the items studied for DNA, still I am not sure if I am able to wrap my head around your idea. Meaning I can’t see your scenario visually.

        Something that has been on my mind lately is. Would have experts for tracing blood with specialized equipment have found something on the scene, this obviously is a problem in our larger scenario.

    • Operacarla says:

      His cut was a quarter inch…this is a quarter inch — .

      Dear Professor, Malisha, Xena, Jun and others.Thank you so very much for your knowledge and insight into this case. Everyone who reads your posts will become better for having read them. Happy New Year!

  26. Another court case for fogen?……He already has 3 going currently….2 in which he’s the defendant…..and one where he’s the plaintiff.

  27. A quote from an Orlando TV station about GZ’s security………..

    “O’Mara told WFTV that Zimmerman’s former security team was charging up to $10,000 a week. He said he now has a new security team that only costs about $700.00 a week.”

    He has a “NEW TEAM” that only costs $700.00 a week??????

    $700.00 divided by 168 hours in a week works out to $4.16 an hour for 24 hour security by 1 person !!!!!!!!

    So he has a new “SECURITY TEAM” that works for less than minimum wage.

    His “SECURITY TEAM” could make more flipping burgers at Micky D’s……

    That does not include any profits for the company providing the security, PLUS the companies overhead,

    ie: Matching Social Security deductions, (Required by the Feds) paying into unemployment (Required by employers) or a workman’s comp. policy that employers are supposed to carry on their employees.

    Also a “Security company” needs to be licensed & bonded. That also comes out of the $700.00 a week?

    The last business I had my labor costs OVER actual wages was about 23%. Example, an employee I was paying $15.00 and hour to, my actual labor costs on that individual worked out to $18.45 an hour.

    If the employers rate is the same 23% then the employee is actually making $3.20 an hour, and that does not include any profits for the company supplying the “SECURITY TEAM”

    And MOM now says he has a “SECURITY TEAM” for $700.00 a week…….Fu*k….even MOM can’t lie good…I hope he has the records to prove this in court.

    That is of course MOM just didn’t hire a wino off the street to sleep on georgies couch?

    BTW….MOM ought to keep his face away from that mirror….or the spoon out of his nose.

    • Rachael says:

      There is something not right with this entire security story – I know O’Mara said something about wanting GZ to be able to move around freely for his own safety and wants to make sure he is alive and well to show up for his court/trial date.

      I have a weird feeling about this – the way O’Mara said it, it sounded like a threat, and I would not be surprised if “something” does happen. The whole security strategy they had was way out of line and I don’t know, but something is off here.

      • @ Rachael…….
        “Something”… fogen disappears, and a note is left behind saying that he has been kidnapped by the NBP?

      • Malisha says:

        Rachael, right, this is peculiar. First O’Mara makes a ridiculous, obviously-designed-to-lose motion to get the ankle bracelet off Fogen and doesn’t even give a rational reason for asking. THEN the security company ends up in litigation with both O’Mara and Mr. and Mrs. Fogennar. If you watch Fogen in court as his request to get the anklet off is heard, you can see that he is not that upset at losing the motion. How come not? THEN we’re to believe there’s no more money. And the keeper of the purse changes. All kind of murky, chaotic, and sub rosa, huh?

        And then what? Threats are coming in and poor Fogen has no money to pay security and poor O’Mara cannot make arrangements for his victimized client to stay safe? And then what? Surely something terrible is about to happen to Fogen.

        And where oh where is Shellie? Oh my oh my, something is about to happen. If this were a movie, the background music would change right now to play those “uh oh, we know something formless and scary is coming, but where is it coming FROM and what exactly is God’s plan?”…

      • looneydoone says:

        Yep, something’s afoot
        Maybe MOM’s decided the *best* way for him to deal with this case is to aid/abet fogen’s running from justice.

      • seallison says:

        Squirreling away money for the grand escape, is my guess.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        High theatre to sway a potential jury, I reckon.

      • looneydoone… fogen running from justice………..I wouldn’t be suprised if fogen was conveniently “kidnapped” at the very time that his security force wasn’t on the job.. And that a note will be left by the “kidnappers” asking for a ransom…..a little extra cash to help fogen and shel-lie get started in Peru.

      • If either of these things happened, I would be sick to my stomach. Trayvon deserves justice.

      • leander22 says:

        It’s an odd story, but I guess I prefer to suspend my judgment. We will hear more in time. What I am wondering a bit about is that O’Mara claims he never signed a contract. Would I want to protect his client without one? Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel.

        He would be whisked away to a tourist resort, according to a recently-released “jail escort plan,” where he would then go into the handicapped stall of the men’s bathroom and change into a new shirt, hat and glasses.

        Zimmerman, facing second-degree murder charges for the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, would then walk to a different vehicle and be driven to a safe house.

        All the while, bodyguards would watch for paparazzi, “aerial” and “negative counter surveillance” and be on the lookout for people wanting to harm or humiliate their client.

        The plan was put together by an Orlando private detective whose company, Associated Investigative Services Inc., last week filed suit against Zimmerman and his attorney, Mark O’Mara, claiming they owe $27,000 for security services.

        The company’s invoices, attached to the suit, show that it billed Zimmerman and O’Mara $66,000 for 21 days of protection – an average of more than $3,100 a day – even though Zimmerman was still in the Seminole County Jail during seven of those days.

        During one five-day period, the agency billed Zimmerman and O’Mara more than $5,100 a day, the invoices show.

        O’Mara said last week that he paid the company $40,000, that the charges appeared to be exorbitant and that he never signed a contract.

        Zimmerman is now being protected under a plan that costs $700 a week, O’Mara said.

        This reminds me of “the security brainstorming” in the jail calls.

        Concerning the much lower fees now. Is it mainly electronic surveillance? Is he living somewhere where the basic security structures can be used for an extra fee?

      • Rachael says:

        That is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard, them not signing a contract. Bunch-o-bull. He’s a lawyer and the security service was a business. Do you expect me to believe this was typical for this business? Do you know a lawyer who would not insist on signing something? I’m.telling you, something is up. It just makes no sense

    • O’Mara has zero credibility, as far as I am concerned, and his excuse that he does not owe the former security company for services provided because he never signed a contract is ridiculous.

      With the exception of contracts governed by the Statute of Frauds (i.e., that are invalid unless they are in writing), such as contracts for the sale of real estate, oral contracts are legal and enforceable. This is an employment contract that is not prohibited by the Statute of Frauds and it is enforceable according to its terms, which are easy to determine because O’Mara already made a partial payment of $40,000. He needs to pay the unpaid balance for services already rendered, plus attorneys fees and shut up.

      This man is not a good lawyer and he appears to be as dishonest as his lying client.

      • bettykath says:

        “it is enforceable according to its terms, which are easy to determine because O’Mara already made a partial payment of $40,000.” – F. Leatherman

      • bettykath says:

        Guess I hit the wrong reply. This is in response to Mountainmanpat below.

      • Dave says:

        Professor, as a lawyer do you think it at least a bit odd that any lawyer would contract for expensive services like these without all the details specified in a written contract?

      • Jun says:

        They have a contract in place, which is oral, but I am going to guess that they have some orders and demands Omara made that were written somewhere by him, such as texts and email or notes and letters, and they will use witnesses. It should be an easy case for the security company considering they were getting weekly payments until Omara decided to cut off payment suddenly.

      • Malisha says:

        WOW, Professor, I thought many of these things but never said them because I have a reputation for judging attorneys and judges harshly and I didn’t want to go too far. I am very glad to see that they were not just my prejudices speaking, that they are conclusions that can safely be drawn from the data presented so far! What bothers me so much about the conduct of Fogen’s defense is the manipulation factor. I am not ultimately too terribly worried about it because Judge Nelson is not to be fooled, and even more important, she doesn’t suffer fools gladly. But the efforts on Fogen’s side (family, legal representatives and Internet shriekers) to trash Trayvon Martin and his team, to trash the prosecution and Corey in particular, to reinvent reality and to cheat everybody in sight is nothing short of appalling. I am drunk with disgust.

      • Trained Observer says:

        Agreed professor. In fact, common sense dictates that with the requested 24/7 coverage for the defendant and his Mrs., plus other family members, along with vehicle rentals, etc. that the tab could easily have exceeded what’s been billed (that paid and that owed.) Could the $700 per week referenced by the defendant’s team translate to Frank Taaffe, who was seen lurking around the courthouse during the recent hearing? As Professor Leatherman says, “O’Mara has zero credibility.”

      • looneydoone says:

        a newly registered member on AOL/huff po is using your photo and the screenname “masoninblue” (last comment 2 hrs ago)

        take him down, drop the hammer…please

      • SearchingMind says:

        I disagree, Professor (not that I think that O’Mara has any credibility in general). I think in dispute is not the enforceability of the (oral) contract between the parties but the terms of that contract. If there is/are no witness(es) to the contract and/or other objective material to determine the said terms (if I am not mistaken, the agreement was reached over the phone), the fact that O’Mara has already paid $40,000. only confirms the existence of a contract, but will definitely, IMO, not suffice as evidence in support of the plaintiff’s claim of additional $27,000. One would expect O’Mara to claim that the paid $40,000. is the agreed upon cost of services rendered for the duration in question. In such a scenario, the burden of proof to the contrary rests on the shoulders of the plaintiff.

      • leander22 says:

        Frederick, we have the same type of rules over here. Basically pacta sunt servanda contracts have to be fulfilled. Nevermind if written or oral with a very limited set of exceptions. But in a more complicated contract like this, wouldn’t I as a lawyer want to have the precise terms of the contract before I agree? I agree with Dave somehow. Wouldn’t I want to know the costs before. I always insist on a written contract after problems with an oral one, which included the realization that I had would have troubles to prove there was an oral contract.

        What this reminds me of is one of Fogen’s 911 calls, were he informed police since somebody felt he had been hired by him. Can we be sure O’Mara hired the firm and not “the poor threatened victim?”

        Would O’Mara consider the exorbitant fees, Stutzman reports, reasonable and agree to such a contract, expecting endless money flows for ever? Even if they had continued the way they did early, it would still have been a huge share of the money.

      • Wouldn’t his admission that they paid 40k to the security company be proof enough that a verbal contract was in place?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I’m tellin’ ya, the entertainment this crew provides never ends, does it?

        Anyone wanna speculate on what’s coming up next? LOL!

      • Jun says:



        From my experience with legal issues with money

        there was a contract in place because they were providing services for the Fogenhats

        and they were getting weekly payments until Omara stopped the payments but continued the services anyways

        which included when he was bonded out the second time

        another point I want to make is an observation, which is Omara publicly making an iff regarding danger to Fogenhats, along with the Fogenhats media tour, proclaiming of the threats of NAACP ninja assassins and that they were using security

        so if you put that all together, there was a form of agreement in place that Omara wanted to try and rescind by scheming

      • seallison says:

        Professor – Does it make sense, when MOM knew the cash cow was drying up, that the security system in place would would surely result in his team NOT getting a thin dime for their work.

      • Jun says:

        I think it is safe to say Omara and Fogenhats are both jerks and scam artists and liars and manipulators


        does not surprise me they are stiffing the security team

    • Jun says:

      Security, just for one bodyguard is around $50 per hour, from a company, I believe. I think they are only getting 2 hours worth of service everyday, but at the same time, Omara could be lying again about the $700.

    • PYorck says:

      There is no way that they are getting anything close to full-time protection for that kind of money.
      It is so little that is probably only enough for trips to court and other special events when people are watch… – pardon – when the threat level is elevated.

    • seallison says:

      The security system is a rope around the neck with a mechanism when pressed, alerts a call center that there is a problem — I’ve fallen down and I cant get up!!

    • gbrbsb says:

      I commented on the blog yesterday about the $700 a week but when I worked out the $4 hourly rate I apologised to a poster sure I must have it wrong! The rental on the video portarage where I live costs about that so maybe that´s what GZ´s “security” now runs to!

    • Nefertari05 says:

      “Friends”, “Supporters”, Homeless, does Fogen have gang members to go with that tat.

      • cielo62 says:

        I’ve often wondered about that tat. Are juvenile records sealed forever or can they be unsealed once the same person commits crimes as an adult? I believe GZ has some juicy juvi records.

        Sent from my iPod

        • Xena says:

          I’ve often wondered about that tat. Are juvenile records sealed forever or can they be unsealed once the same person commits crimes as an adult? I believe GZ has some juicy juvi records.

          Juvenile records are not sealed from LE nor government prosecutors. I do not know however, what reason(s) constitute bringing them up at trial once the person is an adult.

          • cielo62 says:

            If GZ has previous history of violent encounters and/or hate crimes involving minorities, I’d think that would be relevant.

            Sent from my iPod

      • Nefertari05 says:

        I agree. If they want to see Trayvon’s school records, enquiring minds want to know what he was doing in VA, and FL before the family got there.

      • I’d love to see if GZ has a juvenile record.

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