Sunday, December 30, 2012
Good morning:
I write today to feature Whonoze and Seallison and to remind everyone that the defendant, who is charged with second degree murder for killing Trayvon Martin, may be the symptom rather than the cause of the difficulties attracting world attention in Sanford, Florida.
Whonoze remind us in his comment at 7:22 am this morning:
” The flipside of turning Trayvon into an angelic caricature is turning GZ into a demonic caricature. He pulled a gun on an unarmed teenager who had not hurt him in the midst of a grab-fight. That’s horrible enough. Then he shot him through the heart. Much worse. Then he acted as if he was the hero, lying up a storm and showing no signs of remorse (God’s plan, you know.) Just totally fucking disgusting.
But that’s not bad enough for the people here who need him to personify TOTAL evil incarnate. He has to have planned the whole thing. There must have been a conspiracy to murder Trayvon. He cocked his gun, no knocked on his co-conspirators screen door!. He had a script in the truck with him, and he was whispering to Shellie or Osterman or the ghosts of James Earl Ray and Byron De La Beckwith! You give him too MUCH credit, as if he had superpowers. If he lurks here, I’ll bet he gets off on how bad you all think he is.
But he’s just a small man. A fuck-up in denial of his own failures, A control freak who has never really felt in control of anything. He is, in the last analysis, nothing but small potatoes. But in the US any loser can get ahold of a semi-automatic weapon and turn themselves into a headline. GZ is the symptom, not the problem.
The real story here remains not the little man who killed an unarmed teenager out of his own weakness, but the racist law enforcement regime that chose first to look the other way, and then to cover up their own misconduct with bogus reports and evidence tampering. Until I see actual evidence to the contrary, I shall continue to believe that Angela Corey is covering for this regime and it’s crimes, that the State’s game is to sacrifice the pawn named George Zimmerman to protect rook SYG, Queen SPD and King Rick Scott.
I think people here are getting played by focusing so exclusively on Zimmerman. He’s become the projection of the Mighty Oz, so the men actually pulling the levers get ignored. I think it’s cognitive dissonance. You realize GZ may actually get punished for his crimes, but you don’t really beiieve the political structure that supports racist police departments can be challenged. So you focus on GZ because you have a chance of winning, which will allow you to feel better about the world and your place in it if/when he goes down. But, you’re like the druck looking for his keys under a streetlight because the light is better there, even though he lost them in the shadows up the alley.
Because putting GZ behgind bars for the rest of his life isn’t going to change anything. Trayvon Martin will still be dead and the institutional structures that created the climate in which he could be killed and have his killing ignored will be rolling right along, thank you very much. Oh some of the names will change and the cards will get shuffled a bit. But the machine will grind on and the same shit will keep happening, just as it has already continnued to to keep happening in the few months since Trayvon’s murder.”
Seallison provided an interesting link to this article regarding the selection of Bill Lee, a “good ol’ boy,” to be the Chief of Police for the City of Sanford:
Trayvon Martin case: Did Sanford police chief Bill Lee lack the experience to lead?
As I said to Whonoze,
I am very concerned about this too. I do not have any faith or confidence in the commitment of the U.S. Department of Justice and the FBI to root out corruption and prosecute the offenders in local and state police departments for violating civil rights.
I am hoping they will carry out their responsibilities and do their jobs in this case, but I am not holding my breath.
What do you all think?
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
Dear Fred Leatherman,
Somebody is impersonating you on Huffington Post. The user name is masoninblues and is using your profile pic as its profile pictures
Yes, I know. Thank you for letting me know.
@Lydia Laird. For those unfamiliar with navigating HuffPost, it would help if you provided a link. HuffPost is massive with many sections and on some articles, many comments.
sweetiepie says:
December 31, 2012 at 4:49 am
Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar
Tell that to Monica Lewinski.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/12/26/v-fullstory/3156895/parents-of-trayvon-martin-george.html
i don’t know if you guys have read this.
but again i complain because in it Frances points out Trayvon’s minor indiscretions as a TEENAGER but never mentions GZ’s major, illegal, violent run ins with the law or his manipulative, illegal financial activities as an ADULT! why won’t someone in the damn media stand up to GZ and expose him publicly??
shannon says: “why won’t someone in the damn media stand up to GZ and expose him publicly??”
Nuisance lawsuits from Team GZ or incompetence?
I have a new post up:
Nitty Gritty: Three Questions for Jury to Answer in Trayvon Martin Murder Case
I think Baez is exceedingly smart. He handed over the three drafts to BDLR, but he had not handed them over to MOM. The three drafts will probably prove that BDLR was not a willing part of any SPD conspiracy to let Fogen go; I would love to be able to read them. I believe Wolfinger went over those drafts and refused to let Serino file them. I believe Wolfinger’s guys (who are Lee’s guys) in the SPD are still dominant there and that is why Serino went out on night patrol, to get away from them to the extent possible and to avoid subjecting any more homicide investigations to interference and even to corruption on HIS watch. This gives me a good feeling about the feds’ investigation, because if it was NOT a real investigation with the potential of doing serious damage to certain corrupt cops and corrupt officials, Serino wouldn’t be the least bit concerned either about going along with corruption or about showing his non-involvement in it concerning this case.
One strange thing. Manslaughter was listed on Ayala’s police report on 2/27/2012; that was the charge that Serino’s capias ultimately (after three drafts) used. Wolfinger’s fingers are in there somehow although we can be sure that he never wanted ANY charge drawn against Fogen at all. So this is still puzzling to me.
Happy New Year!
Have you read Serpico? There are many novels, true stories written about corruption inside police forces. One of the most dangerous things in police work, is to be one honest cop among many corrupt ones. Being “caught on the dirty side” of the law, is taken so seriously by police officers, that suicide is preferable to trial.
We had “The Morgue Boys” in New York in the 80’s/90’s and in the 80’s there was two police officers, who were actually on the mob’s payroll, read: Louis Eppolito and Stephen Caracappa http://tinyurl.com/a9mcxjr Then google Michael Dowd of Morgue Boys fame.
A few apples go bad inside a police department and they begin to drag others down into the abyss with themselves. Like mob conspiracies, the one bad apple enlists the help of fellow officers to avoid detection of some transgression. His fellow officers cooperate and it’s down she goes from there. That “help” morphs into a sort of “greymail” and before you know it they all find themselves forced to go along as the games get darker and darker. Until finally they’re all caught in a whirlpool that none of them dare even try to break out of. The honest officer finds himself surrounded by a office full of rogues, he either has to go along or risk grave personal harm, either to his career or himself and family, depending on how much he knows.
Nor can that honest officer merely assume that help is nearby. He doesn’t know how high the conspiracy of silence reaches. Report to the wrong person and you’re toast. IIRC, Serino comes from a big city police force? If so he would know better how to handle himself.
In fact, he may have even been “there” before.
Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
Jd A credible outside investigation would likely be more visible and generate news reports regarding files and records being seized, officials lawyering up for formal questioning, and leaks to the MSM. If and until such red flags appear, I’m going to assume this “investigation” of which you heard has no teeth, and little appetite for change.
But thanks again for the information. I don’t suppose Ms Washington said anything about Norm Wolfinger, did she?
Serrino lawered up with Baez as his council
Baez isnt onboard to babysit Serrino through his depo with the defence.
Baez knows as does Serrino that other legal matters are on the horizon.
Baez handed over document to the State .Not only those three draughts we hears about
The first two asking for 2nd degree charges to be filled final draft manslaughter.
B D L R Stated Baez handed him thease document thinking they may qualify as Brady material further down the line.
Brady evidence or evidence that could be exculpary to Baez cleint can only mean
That Baez is of the opinion as is his client that he may be faceing allegations or criminal proceedings at a future date
An if this threat hangs over Serrinos head.Then i m o It also applys to the whole kit an kaboodle of those whom participated in this perversion of justice.
If I may make one more comment about Corey and other elected justice officials: I think the pressure of election and re-election greatly influences decisions made that may be temporarily popular and only to gain election advantage.
A here today and gone tomorrow system does not have the powers that be focusing on the future. I think these important positions effecting a society as a whole should not be held hostage because they are elected positions.
Corey ran unopposed in the last election.
As far as Wolfinger and Lee are concerned, I think the establishment believes, by getting them out of the picture, everyone should believe that the problem is solved. The corruption MUST be addressed and those involved prosecuted.
I think right here and now, Trayvon Martin has become a icon for major change in the USA.
It’s true those two are “out of the picture,” so to speak, and I guess we can be thankful for that. But logically, since GZ is now being prosecuted one has to assume that these two were either incompetent, racially biased or else corrupt – or some combination of the above since their actions left an admitted child-killer out on the loose.
Shouldn’t there be an answer for the questions raised by this?
Major changes were made when citizens have come together in peaceful demonstration in the past. Two million signatures and a demand for an arrest was a powerful force to reckon with. As long as citizens believe change to the status quo and come together with the cause, change can and will happen.
Too often, the establishment wins when the divide and conquer tactics divert attention. Right now, it is the issue of gun laws and whether or not teachers should be armed — I can not believe just how quickly the Trayvon Martin, Jordan Davis murders,the mass shooting in Newtown, the SYG laws, and gun ownership issues have taken a back seat to the small issue of whether or not teachers in schools should be armed.
Smoke and mirrors – bait and switch — diversion is succeeding. Divide and conquer now – more guns or gun control.
I concur about the smoke and mirrors. Few if any teachers would ever WANT to be armed!! Our job is to teach! But regular folks (ie people who work long hours with little time to really think about issues) want quick easy answers to complex problems. Why not dump this on teachers, too? “Here’s a kel-tec. Now teach ’em algebra!” (Dang, even too cheap to get us good guns!)
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I feel the president’s idea with his crew of having the National Guard there to watch over them is better
The guard is properly trained to deal with violent threats and military tactics and planning against attacks
Using a gun is a martial art in itself
Yes the teachers should be able to defend themselves but what’s a teacher going to do in an actual violent altercation?
It is a scary situation and some of them freeze up…
I think it is better to give the kid’s and teachers bullet proof gear and do terrorist drills
When I was a kid, we have had bomb threats at our school and the police had a military tactic to lead us all out
Nope. Militarizing school grounds is NOT the answer. Work on public mental health issues and keep school zones gun-free.
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cielo62: “Militarizing school grounds is NOT the answer. Work on public mental health issues and keep school zones gun-free.”
Not sure about militarizing school grounds but I would love to see a well-trained armed security guard in schools who may deter any future events like the massacre of innocents in Newtown. From what I can see as far as public mental health issues, it would be tough and even illegal to coral all the potential Adam Lanza’s in for mental health treatment and/or medication. From the little I know, most people who have mental health issues don’t realize it.
Jun- do you have any idea how many schools there are in the USA? My school district alone has 65 campuses. Texas has over a thousand school districts. Plus the other states. There really isn’t any money for that many armed guards. Especially when police departments can’t find enough qualified candidates to provide boots in the ground for citizen protection. It’s just not possible, and IMO not wanted. I would HATE to see an armed cop at my campus every day v
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cielo62 “I would HATE to see an armed cop at my campus every day.”
I hate the idea that we need an armed cop but I would rather have it well-known that there is an armed guard at the school kids attend then ever be in a situation the parents of Newtown are in. The cost can be budgeted in and taxpayers pay for the additional school costs just like hiring additional teaching staff. It seems it would be cheaper and more reasonable than trying to get mental health care for people who may not want mental health care or psych medication, for example a sociopath like GZ.
I was talking with friends at Christmas whose children attend private school and they do have a uniformed armed security officer at the door and are happy he is there and even more so after the Newtown massacre.
Sorry, am I off topic?
No, not off topic. We’ve discussed this before. Private schools can ask for more money. Public schools are at the mercy of state politics. Our teaching staff has been reduced. Our classes average 24 students in elementary school, which includes students with special needs. Our district hasn’t given a cost of living raise in over 4 years. Again, people are NOT Willing to support education in safe times. I doubt they would be willing to shell out an additional 10-25 million dollars a year it would take to provide armed guards at a large school district. Remember, I teach the 47%. Many “anchor babies”. Texans give our schools less than the bare minimum.
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Kind of sad. I wonder what it will take to ensure kids are safe and have a good education.
Thank you. I wonder the same thing. But giving me a gun isn’t the answer.
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Agreed. Making kids and teachers wear bullet proof vest is NOT the answer. Address the real issue. GUNS!
BB: “Address the real issue. GUNS!”
I HATE guns but the real issue is people love their guns and there is no way the government can take them away, especially from crazy people who don’t usually obey the law and want to make a name for themselves.
It is frightening that the likes of GZ could legally carry a gun with his previous history of violence, but there is no move to have gun control laws revised. Seems GZ and Adam Lanza, etc, may be the reason some may want to arm themselves and even more guns sold. It becomes a vicious circle but there is no political party that is going to take on NRA and gun lovers. Just my humble opinion.
Jm- people used to believe that cigarettes were untouchable and inviolate. Yet today we have more No Smoking places than smoking places. At one time, drinking and driving was cool. It still happens but with with less regularity. And people will lambast a drunk driver and show no mercy or sympathy. The same will happen with guns. We just have to keep on pushing.
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@JM
I understand that some people who grew up with guns, or live in parts of the country where guns are a part of their life, culture, that to me is OK. I know that they love their guns, because its a part of them. Just like we can not be apart from our everyday comforts.
The problem I have is the amount of guns an individual can accumlate and the size of the weapons they can obtain without going thru an extensive background check. What I mean by extensive is a mental and criminal background should be checked. For instance why is necesscary for a regular joe smoe to have an assault rifle, or hollow points or a AK47. Is this everday citizen going to encounter a Wooly Mammouth in their back yard?
I approve of our right to bear arms, I am not trying to take that away from no one, but do regular citizens have to armed to the hilt to prove the 2nd amendment is working.
I believe gun control is necessary more then ever with all the killings that keep happening by joe smoes.
Blushed Brown- Amen!
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🙂 🙂 🙂
I understand the money concern but I believe they can work it in their budget to have a few people watch over the area
They have them at malls and banks so I dont see why they cant have them to protect kids
and I am not suggesting a militarized zone, I am suggesting people who are trained to deal with a violent threat and understand military tactics to use in a violent and threatening situation, such as a national guard member
A teacher with a gun is more than likely gonna shoot the wrong person or a kid by accident, and will likely get shot themselves by an assailant because they dont know what they are doing
It would also deter pedophiles too
LOL! My biggest concern would be the teacher assault issue. Right now, if a teacher is assaulted by a student (middle school or high school) that teacher CANNOT defend him/herself. I could see a student assault on a teacher in order to disarm him/her and acquire a gun. Conversely there are dangerous students required to be in schools and there is nothing legal a teacher can do! Maybe this issue can also help determine safe working conditions for teachers from dangerous kids.
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I agree prevention is also key, such as mental health checks and also better gun control so it is not so easy to pick up a gun
I think it should be used in combination with properly trained guards at schools
“Properly trained guards” like GZ? No thanks!
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The main issue is mental health and guns
but there is nothing wrong with having bullet proof gear for the kids and teachers in case…
at present, any tom dick and harry can waltz into a store and grab a military assault rifle and go crazy…
perfect example is the Colorado theatre shooting
Bullet proof vests….. That does SO MUCH for classroom management, working cooperatively and having fun at recess. Ugh. Again, no thanks.
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Fogenhats is not a properly trained person. He is basically a violent psychopath. That is not what I am suggesting. That is why I agree with using some members of the National Guard. & bulletproof vests is not a bad thing to keep around in case something bad happens.
HA! money for guns at school!??
there’s already no money for schools, no money for teachers, no money for computers, shit no money for decent meals!
our school systems are pathetically inadequate already.
there’s no way they can put armed guards in schools, no way there’s millions of mini bullet proof vests handed out in the lunch rooms,
that just isn’t reasonable. the only reasonable thing is to straighten up gun laws and enforcement of those laws. that is what’s in discussions now. we aren’t a police state. we also have a right to own guns. but there are rules that haven’t been followed and laws that haven’t been passed yet. those are the things we should be discussing and putting into practice.
Yes, and instead they are passing laws that give gun nuts, the mistaken impression that they can shoot to kill and be given a waiver of complete immunity by the local police. Like someone said, SYG will be most effective in freeing corporate body guards from being held accountable, for everyone else it’s the gallows.
Come one, guys. There are VERY FEW school shootings. The same kids could get shot in the pizza place or during a drive-by. … while there is easy access to guns.
Yeah, let’s have ARMED MILITARY guarding them in school. Let us make totally sure they grow up PARANOID, so first thing when old enough they will want their OWN GUN TO PROTECT THEMSELVES against the invisible bogeyman…. and thereby become the bogeyman for the other people.
Why not just automatically issue everyone with a gun at 18?
CRAZY.
300 million people, every one of them paranoid and armed, just what the world needs.
IMO
In the states, you should have some paranoia… so many shootings occur there daily
There was a mass shooting at a mall in Oregon
Then someone shot up a hospital
Then someone shot up a bunch of Sikhs
Then there was Jordan Davis
Then a 13 year old boy gets show by a grown man
Then Trayvon Martin
Then the mass Chicago gun fight where over 40 people injured
Then there was the Colorado Theatre shooting
Then you have Newtown
We already have the paranoia. Unfortunatley, we also have too many guns!
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The media in NYC hasn’t mentioned the size of the new years crowds in time square. I wonder if it wasn’t reduced because of these shootings? Instead they’re focusing on the year in tourism, when NYC numbers are up for the year.
whonoze and Professor: It may appear that the focus is on the murderer – and I think it is – for now. The rest of the investigation into the actions of the SPD is yet to come. Then the focus will shift. I believe they are needing to wait until the small potatoes murderer is tucked away.
“Never trust those who tell you you will get pie in the sky when you die” is the old radical’s response to hopeful comments like this.
Two million people petitioned for justice – not justice for GZ, but justice for Trayvon. So far, we got an investigation and prosecution regarding GZ. Not an investigation and prosecution into the SPD and Norm Wolfinger. Sure MAYBE in the future those same two million people will remember what they wanted. But maybe the parade will have moved on by then.
My money is on the latter.
What do I think? Well, I’m with the “Rome wasn’t built in a day” crowd.
Even the speakers realize that what’s to be dealt with is an “institution”, and institutions are either changed by degrees, or swept away in a “storm”. Hopefully, the powers that be realize, that historically, when institutions cannot or do not respond to inputs from the people who rely on them, they eventually and unpredictably, get swept away in the “storm”. These storms are never a good result for anyone, less for the “powers that be”.
So, it is for the sake and hope of a peaceful transition to improved social institutions, improving the operational abilities of the law enforcement institutions, that we attempt to chip away at the rotten structures, in the hope that they will collapse or be swept away from within.
It’s a delicate dance to be sure, but it had better succeed. More so for the sake of the people at the top. While the people on the bottom enjoy a peaceful society, it is the people at the top who depend upon it. Historically it has been their mismanagement, that has caused dramatic social upheavals that have altered society in ways, such that those at the top could no longer depend on it to sustain them.
Since Eisenhower left office we had a great thing going in America, despite all our differences, we all were enamored of our American Citizenship as a common cause to pull ourselves forward together.
Somewhere along the way, that spirit got undermined and cast to the side, even as the standard of living continued to rise, or perhaps, because it continued to rise. No matter, without that spirit, the nation will face travails it will not be able to solve without unity.
So, it is for the above mentioned reasons, I think all we can do is what we are doing, it is the right thing to do. The question is, are the powers that be listening? If they are not, they are placing themselves in great jeopardy, and endangering the future of the freedoms of the republic. Okay, that’s my two cents.
I feel you just gave me a great, little seminar, Lonnie. Thanks!
There are 66 comments on this topic thus far and only one commenter mentions Norm Wolfinger. To me this is the real outrage.
Two million people signed petitions and demonstrated peaceably for justice to come in this case, and the elected official most responsible for letting an admitted killer go free quietly announced he was not running for office again in order to “spend more time with his family.”
There has not been a credible outside investigation into the activities of local prosecutor Norm Wolfinger’s actions regarding this case, nor has there been a credible outside investigation of the Sanford Police Department.
We will always have our Fogens, small time idiots with too easy access to handguns and a misplaced sense of entitlement to use them on “suspects” they deem undesirable. But in a democracy, it’s the responsibility of the citizenry to place pressure on our elected officials to do the right thing.
Thank you Whonoze for stating the obvious. The bad guys got away.
Jd- this case is far from over. Don’t think Wolfinger is off the hook with the FBI reviewing his tenure. This appears to be case that will keep in giving.
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There is exactly ZERO evidence that the DoJ is investigating Wolfinger or the SPD. Please prove me wrong on this, but as far as I can tell and I’ve looked extensively into this matter, AG Eric Holder announced his DoJ was looking into the idea of whether or not Travon Martin’s civil rights were violated by GZ – THAT’S ALL.
If you have links to show that the FBI took possession of the SPD’s records, or deposed Norm Wolfinger’s employees or carried off anyone’s in Law Enforcement or the local prosecutor’s offices’ hard drives and laptops, please share this info with the group. I don’t meant to be confrontational about this, but IMO nothing like this has happened, nor will it, and without proof that the actions of Norm Wolfinger and the SPD are being investigated by a credible outside agency with subpoena powers and such I’m going to have to disagree with you cielo62.
You and many others are engaging in wishful thinking with no evidence to support your position IMO.
Back in March it was widely reported that the DoJ was busy looking into SPD. True, there’s been nothing leaked about them since then. But that’s nothing new. There’s no deadline. Until I read they have dropped their initial investigation, I will continue to think they have an open and active investigation.
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Ms. Angela Washington of the DOJ told me over the telephone that DOJ was investigating the SPD and if I had information for them, I could give it to her. She also said that the public statement originally made (I did not have time to check this fact and I will probably try to do so after a week or so, very busy right now) did indicate that the DOJ was investigating the conduct of the SPD with regard to its handling of the Trayvon Martin case.
Eric Holder emailed me too
I emailed him as I was concerned with Trayvon
He told me that they were looking into it
Thanks Malisha for the information regarding your phone conversation with Ms Angela Washington of the DoJ. I remain skeptical however since the “investigation” into the SPD seems to also fit the profile of what the CRS (community relations service) was doing in Sanford in their brief moment in the spotlight: gathering tips from locals about other instances of poor relations between the community and the police. To me, that’s a suggestion box, not a real investigation.
A credible outside investigation would likely be more visible and generate news reports regarding files and records being seized, officials lawyering up for formal questioning, and leaks to the MSM. If and until such red flags appear, I’m going to assume this “investigation” of which you heard has no teeth, and little appetite for change.
But thanks again for the information. I don’t suppose Ms Washington said anything about Norm Wolfinger, did she?
Fed investigations don’t tend to give up the goods before the state trial. We SCREAMED and yelled over an investigation into Kwame Kilpatrick for years.. What we didn’t know is they were already on it. We didn’t find out jack until the “friend/assistants started rolling. Then there were the “pay for play” businessmen who told about the contracts they bought.
They got him, his daddy, his best friend and the water dept guy who already pleaded guilty 34 charges, including RICO. Not sure how may he plead but 34 is total,includesRICO and WOW that’s lot!
Kilpatrick was a well-known city mayor whose mother was in the US Congress. Then, there’s the Blago case…. not looking too good for Wolfie right now.
YES! The Feds don’t show their hands until they are ready to take you out at the knees.
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i mentioned wolfinger at 1:42
“but as of today the COP has been fired and SA is gone. that’s a start”
as far as investigation by the feds, they don’t adhere to florida’s sunshine laws.
so it’s not likely to see their investigation publicized just for the heck of it.
just because you haven’t seen one doesn’t mean there isn’t a credible investigation going on as we speak.
gz hasn’t even been convicted yet.
I do not have much faith in the system of justice at present as it needs improvements
but
I do not believe they will go out their way to protect SPD and the members involved in such sanction
I do believe they are protecting the SYG law because they want to show that the law works and will not be allowed to be abused and will still put away killers and such
Other than that, it is a conspiracy theory until you can get solid evidence of such
I really hope what is going on is the FBI and the Justice department are just holding off until the trial is over so as not to interfere in it. Any criminal acts by the SPD in the investigation could be used to help George get off even if they were acts to help him cover up his deed.
Here is a perfect example of something O’Mara is going to have a hay day with and has already hinted at. Start at about the 20 minute mark when George says no Ma’am would you like me to draw it for you. He goes on and draws a map of the area, you hear without headphones the pencil or pen as he marks everything and tells where he was at. This is not the Google map he marks in the next interview with her. This is evidence that appears to have been thrown away or lost. O’Mara has asked for all drawings and he has not gotten this one. He is going to say they threw it away because it shows the truth. He can say it had anything on it he wants and they can’t prove different.
Recording #1 -Interview With Investigator Singleton at SPD Immediately Following Shooting of Trayvon Martin – Part 1 (2/26/2012)
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audio/george-zimmermans-statements-sanford-pd-audio/
That is just one little thing and all of the stuff the SPD did to help cover this up or cover up their fake investigation can be used in the trial for George with just a little twist.
Well I think we can comfort ourselves in the knowledge that the map Fogen drew for Singleton was only “secondary evidence” and therefore, only evidence of what Fogen said that evening. It is not evidence of what Fogen DID that evening. His drawing may have been corruptly hidden or shredded, but the actual geographic locations at RTL were not dematerialized. If he wants to draw another map he is free to do so. If anybody wants to question Singleton about what his drawing revealed, they are free to do that. The point is simply that although there were plenty of “mistakes” and corruption in the SPD investigation, they do not really work for Fogen because the evidence that DID survive the police cover-up is perfectly adequate to demonstrate that Fogen murdered Trayvon Martin.
I think one of the major points is the flubbing was just of certain officers, not all of them
I personally subscribe that the evidence authenticates and supports each other
Deedee is a good example of her testimony being supported by the on scene forensic evidence and the testimony of the other witnesses as it lines up with everything
Omara may try to make her look bad but will fail IMO because he has nothing on her and they have loads of proof of attempted witness intimidation, plus he will look like a POS during trial being mean to a little girl
So not only did Fogenhats target and stalk Trayvon, he pursued the victim, and would not let him go…
Fogenhats continued his chase and when he caught up to the victim, he confronted Trayvon and began acting in a threatening and demanding manner, and even attacked first
Besides no one forces O’Mara to release everything. This is the word I wanted, not anything. Release was obviously ordered as part of the Sunshine law, but can the lawyer object to certain documents beyond the specific content blocking?
He asked specifically for “all drawings” by defendant? I must have missed that. But I’d appreciate a further hint.
I may be a bad source on these matters, but if it is so far not contained in the evidence dumps, it could be censored by O’Mara too. Besides no one forces O’Mara to release anything. He does not release the depositions either, only selectively.
Are you sure it is missing, or are you sure he did not use the google map Singleton printed out in this context. It would make sense, made things easier anyway. I’d appreciate the specific passage, but now I have to hit the hay. 😉
I have mixed emotions about this because I live in a county where certain politicians cover up police and SA corruption and crimes committed by anyone associated with those offices. Ever heard of a SA’s office not sign for certified mail, and the post office not return it to the sender?
Ever hear of two police officers entering the day care center of a church and shoot a young Black man twice in the back to only have special investigators determine that the cops could have handled it differently, but were not guilty of murder?
What about having a local newspaper publish articles about corruption, to find that their payroll checks bounced because the bank made a mistake, and an employee of the bank is related to a party in the article? Subsequently, that newspaper reduces itself to writing about gardening and recycling and entertainment.
Here is what I see — when news gets no further than the boundaries of a city or county, no one else is informed to take interest. What happened in Sanford, FL is not new. It took brave parents to make sure that the news became national.
The SPD is not responsible for allowing GZ to terrorize his community. Rather, folks like Taaffe and other residents of that community who were not victims of crime, gave GZ that authority.
GZ is not responsible for the decisions of the SPD. He is responsible for killing an unarmed 17 yr old. The SPD did not make that possible. GZ did. GZ is responsible for abandoning his home within hours of killing Trayvon Martin, and responsible for lying about what took place. Had he not been arrested, he would still be homeless, unemployed, and afraid to walk out of his door without a bullet proof vest.
The SPD is another animal and even if set free, it will still be recognized for what it is.
Not a daycare, but the 2 white cops who killed the black Malice Green, who was already in police custody; and hit 14 times on the skull with a tactical flashlight , tried every trick in the book to get off. Both defendants’ convictions were changed to involuntary manslaughter, by the Michigan Supreme Court and by a Federal court for the other. Get why…… the movie Malcome X!
As for bank mistake related to the party -That has one of the Kilpatricks all over it
“I’m just not feeling this, imo, lessening of gz’s culpability because of corruption.”
At no point did I suggest GZ was anything less than fully culpable. After the post the Professor so kindly quoted, I wrote a comment about how i believe the fight occurred. Very speculative, but if that’s how it happened, I believe GZ should actually be prosecuted for Murder 1. I do believe he is a continuing danger to society, and I hope he is winds up spending the rest of his life in prison.
I do not question his culpability, but rather the SIGNIFICANCE of his culpability in the larger scheme of things.
It is not necessarily the case that a conviction will open the door for a further investigation into the SPD. It may be seen to prove that “the system works”, the wrongs have been put right, etc. On the other hand, a not-guilty verdict could spark an outrage that would help pressure the Feds into looking into the something rotten in the State of Florida. Nevertheless, I do not at all want that to happen. I want GZ to be convicted and given a maximum sentence.
My comment was addressed to the people who post on this blog, where, in fact, outside of Malisha and myself, only the occasional post references any questions about the SPD or Corey’s agenda.
The time for people who care about justice for Trayvon Martin, and justice for all Americans, to begin to address these issues is now, not later. Yes it should be both/and not either/or, but that hasn’t been happening here.
Don’t you think it’s possible that if there hadn’t been a “Good Ol’ Boy” network in the SPD, to which George Zimmerman had ties, that he might have taken pause before jerking off his gun, and Trayvon Martin might still be alive. Or GZ might not have been out patrolling the Retreat as pretend-cop in the first place had not he been enabled by the Good Ol’ Boys? I say “might” literally. GZ might have done the same thing in a different context. But I do think it would have been less likely, and I do think that’s very, very important.
“My comment was addressed to the people who post on this blog, where, in fact, outside of Malisha and myself, only the occasional post references any questions about the SPD or Corey’s agenda.”
I have read many comments about SPD shady and/or shoddy investigation.
Not too much about Corey’s “agenda” from anyone lately – other than she is a politician and she will do what it takes to protect herself from being removed from her elected office. I suspect we (general) will focus more on Ms. Corey and her agenda when the trial starts.
Whonoze, thanks for the Honorable Mention. Whereas I hope that Fogen spends the rest of his life in prison (which is, believe me, not usually the kind of hope you or anyone will ever hear from me!), I find myself almost more concerned about the DOJ letting the institutional criminals walk because there are no crowds in the streets drawing attention to their horrible crimes. I always blame the institutional enablers (state agencies, courts, police, other corrupt officials) for cover-ups and I often say “the cover-up is worse than the crime” for the simple reason that a cover-up makes it clear to criminals that they have free cards. Once you give a sociopathic person a free card, another person’s property, or another person’s freedom, and maybe even another person’s life, has been forfeit.
I don’t think the final chapter on SPD has been drafted. It’s still being looked at and I don’t expect the feds to moved on it until after the current trial is completed. I hope they tend to business as it’s supposed to be done.
Interesting scenario, Whonoze. Interesting since realistic.
Made me think of uncle Stephen, by the way.
“My comment was addressed to the people who post on this blog, where, in fact, outside of Malisha and myself, only the occasional post references any questions about the SPD or Corey’s agenda. ”
another broad blind statement. only you and malisha!? wrong lolol you should read more.
Whonoze said:
“But that’s not bad enough for the people here who need him to personify TOTAL evil incarnate. He has to have planned the whole thing. There must have been a conspiracy to murder Trayvon. He cocked his gun, no knocked on his co-conspirators screen door!. He had a script in the truck with him, and he was whispering to Shellie or Osterman or the ghosts of James Earl Ray and Byron De La Beckwith! You give him too MUCH credit, as if he had superpowers. If he lurks here, I’ll bet he gets off on how bad you all think he is.”……………………………………..
I am not sure what you are trying to say here but with the evidence before us you are making a great case for George being the TOTAL evil incarnate you blame on others.
Start with his 911 call where under his breath he says “fu*kcing coons” and continue on to the racking of the gun you hear and many people have recorded the exact same noise by racking their same pistols and posted them all over the internet.
If George was not whispering “fu*king coons* to some co- conspirator what racist ghost would he have been speaking to? Surely you don’t think he was just sharing that with the dispatcher for the heck of it do you?
Then in an attempt to castigate anyone who listens closely to the tape or points out the evilness in George you give George one of the traits of the evilest by saying he gets off on how bad people think he is.
The gun was out and he racked it, you hear it plain as day on the tape. My God to deny that is to agree with the murdering scum that he was so scared because his flashlight did not work that he stood in the rain for two and a half minutes on Retreat View Circle before walking back to his truck. The whole time in this near frozen state with a non working flashlight he forgets he has his pistola pressing against his side on the inside of his waistband.
He was hunting, he had his gun and and he shot. You don’t get much more evil then that.
Yes, there is a greater evil. The greater evil is the system that almost kept the defendant from being charged. What it almost did in not bringing charges against the killer of Trayvon, it has done to lots of other killers of the innocent. This is one case where the publicity and rallies put pressure on that system to do what it should have done without any pressure except the knowledge of exerting equal justice for all. That’s all, not just the friends of the cops.
and lets not forget those that were wrongfully convicted, especially in my great state, Texas, in Dallas County. The system is not as corrupt as the people who run it!! Its the people, not the system!
>^..^<
@Whonoze & Grahase
Excellent post!
Professor thank you for featuring their well thought out commentary
I will never think that I have won,this is not a game. Whonoze you throwing more smoke sreen just like O’mare. This case is about why didn’t Trayvon make it back home. We know the system is F up, The Martin deserve justice. So stop throwing smoke screen,if you don’t have evidence abot Angela Corey.
I’m just not feeling this, imo, lessening of gz’s culpability because of corruption, especially when gz was well aware of the corruption via Sherman Ware. Each of us have choices within corrupt systems, some of us chose not to murder despite living in a corrupt system where no one will care unless the public pressures them to do so. I don’t subscribe to the notion that anymore Trayvon’s are acceptable until we change the system. It is both/and not until/then.
yes, i think it’s another way to distract from the murder of one kid by a scumbag that needs open discussion. a deflection from what i believe is an action from, for a lack of a better word, *evil*, self important, loser that needs to be made an example of, as well as receive the punishment he personally deserves for taking the life of an innocent.
i think too many can *relate* to GZ or his family in some ways, and feel the need to defend themselves by defending GZ. they are scared.
It is a necessary condition to even have a chance of taking on the larger systems IMO.
follow
Good point from whonose.
One reason the Travon Martin case has my continuing attention is that so much of the evidence is available. It’s something that can be looked at to try to figure out what happened. Kind of like a cop show where we get to be the detective. I don’t like the demonization of the defendant or his family or his legal team and I won’t go to the gutter with those who do. The defendant will be dealt with and we go on looking for another titillating “mystery” to be solved.
The much larger problem, as whonose points out, is the racism of the “ole boy network” that needed a national response to get a proper look at the evidence and a charge. How many other cases are swept under the rug while we obsess about this one? There have been young black men killed all over the country, many by police officers, and there has been no outcry for them, or proper investigation, or trials. This isn’t just a Sanford problem. It’s a problem in Oakland, Los Angeles, New York, Chicago and lots of smaller cities all across the country.
This is what racism is: the institutionalization of bias. The governmental agencies, in the Sanford case, it’s the city council and the police department, probably the courts, and the mover and shakers who don’t have political office but greatly influence those who do, don’t want to be bothered with meting out equal justice for all. Keeping blacks “in their place” is a national disgrace and has been one for as long as the country has existed. It’s long past time for a change.
Blacks have taken the brunt of racism at all times, but it isn’t just Blacks. It’s any group that could reasonably take a slice of the privileged white man’s pie. Immigrants from nearly everywhere have been targeted. Poor people, regardless of race or culture are also easy targets. So it isn’t just racism, but economic status that triggers the unfair tactics.
The political boundaries of the country have been so manipulated at all levels that making changes is difficult. Unfortunately, as the middle class moves into the lower class, as the police departments get more and more militarized and trained to believe that the Bill of Rights is dead (all but the second amendment and they’re working on that), as warrantless wire tapping expands, as CCTVs are put everywhere, as drones start watching our every move (next year), as we get picked up and put in indefinite detention without charges, we’re all screwed.
Betty, you expressed yourself so well on this important topic. Thank you so much.
you’re welcome. nice to know it was read. : )
@Betty,
I read your post and had the same reaction as YAHTC.
Thanks again for your post.
When the quilt of justice and just institutions is torn, each square has to be restitched back in place one at a time. Many hands can speed up this process.
I think of Pete Seeger singing the lyrics to Garden Song as I prepare myself to stand up and stay active in the cause of social justice:
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[Chorus:]
Inch by inch, row by row,
Gonna make this garden grow.
Gonna mulch it deep and low,
Gonna make it fertile ground.
Inch by inch, row by row,
Please bless these seeds I sow.
Please keep them safe below
‘Til the rain comes tumbling down.
Pullin’ weeds and pickin’ stones,
We are made of dreams and bones
Need a spot to call my own
Cause the time is close at hand.
Grain for grain, sun and rain
I’ll find my way in nature’s chain
Tune my body and my brain
To the music of the land.
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Plant your rows straight and long,
Season them with a prayer and song
Mother earth will keep you strong
If you give her love and care.
Old crow watching from a tree
Has his hungry eyes on me
In my garden I’m as free
As that feathered thief up there.
bettykath – From the outside looking in, it seems alot of the divide and conquer technique is often used to water down the change progress.
” I don’t like the demonization of the defendant or his family or his legal team and I won’t go to the gutter with those who do. ”
It’s really unnecessary. While we don’t like some of the things these folk say and do – and some of the things they say and do may be WAY out of line to the point of evil – we need to remember that very few people are all good or all evil. Human beings are complex. We all have the ability to be depraved or enlightened.
May all beings be free from suffering.
Exactly, TSTAS. I have been saying this all along though it seems not well. Thank you for your big picture perspective.
Thank you BettyKath!
The targeting of the chosen victim by any one, or any group of, bullies with any of their bully motives, has been our problem in this country since what we call “Day One” but which was “Many Days Old” to the Native Americans. But targeting a chosen victim is no longer as simple as it once was. Now, we have to target the chosen victim, prepare (or invent on the spot) the narrative that blames the victim for whatever we do to him, and get whole systems to go along with us.
I have often called the systemic support for the bully “abuser technology.” I have wished that some university would fund a chair for the study not of victimology (which disgusts me) but of “Systemic Abuser Technology.” I think this is the biggest problem our culture has to deal with now. I also think that the deliberate, engineered widening gap between the richest of the rich and the “masses of poor” is part of a model to streamline systemic abuser technology so that any attempt to get justice for any individual victim will be so difficult that it will require the two million people in the streets for each prosecution, and then we are lost. So we are, right now, on the razor’s edge and this case illustrates it. The case of the killing of Trayvon Martin could become one of two things: Either —
A. The moment in our history when attention was focused on the insstitutions that enabled Fogen to commit his crime, so that those institutions were publicly and efficiently reformed to fit into the demands of American Democracy; or
B. The moment in our history when it became clear that nothing will ever be done right in this country until or unless 2 or more million people take time out of their living schedules and mount a protest so huge and undeniable that one criminal faces charges for one single crime against one victim in one small town, which will mean, essentially, that we have lost the big battle and our democracy will rapidly decompose filling the 21st and possibly 22nd Century with the stench of its demise.
Whether A or B comes about is going to be a function of what our Department of Justice in Washington does about the corruption in Sanford, Florida.
Whew, quite the moment for us now….thanks for your post, Malisha.
One more quick note: Angela Corey is first and foremost a politician.
Exactly. She will do what it takes to remain in office in Florida. What it takes to stay in office at this point is unknown to me.
IMO the focus is on GZ because you (general) can’t fix widespread corruption in a system but you can make GZ an example as to what can happen if you (general) chooses to rely on a corrupt/racist police department to help you get out of an unnecessary murder of a black person.
I believe there is “good ol boy” corruption in many of our institutions (political, etc, etc) and I have no idea how to go about solving the problem.
I think the first step to solving an institutional problem is to bring it into the light of public awareness so that it can no longer continue its practice hidden from public view.
I agree, but an institutional problem, being what it is, is often difficult when it comes to bringing it to public awareness, which is another problem that needs to be solved – the ability to keep stuff hidden.
And without Trayvon’s needless death, what would have brought it into view? We need case studies…Trayvon is a salient modern day example as it has the attention of many. Emmit Till was a case…Rosa Parks was a case…countless cases that provide abject proof, not theory, helps to reform systems. Right now, there is an amendment to SYG based SOLELY on Trayvon’s case in the Florida legislature. Until Trayvon, there were no cases to galvanize against SYG.
Excellent point, That’s.
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How sad that it requires a tragedy before society acts.
There are so many corrupt instances that have been brought to public awareness, including but not limited to our political system/politicians becoming millionaires based on inside knowledge and/or their selling votes to lobbyists to highest bidders, it is mind-boggling. Yet it goes on. There is an old saying that comes to mind when dealing with corruption in an institution. The people with the power and money make the rules.
Rachael and jm, you are both correct. So sad. We need activists with the know how to guide us.
I think the media is also to blame.I just heard a gentleman and I use the term loosely say the case against fogen is very weak and he will be aquitted and no one offered any rebuttal.They were discussing 2012 in review.Iturned tv off in anger.Also we in Canada get U S news and I was beginning to think everyone was violent.You all have restored my faith in humanity.I don’t know anyone who has a gun;My door is always open in the summer when I’m home not to say we don;t have our problems.
Pat, I was listening to Howard Kutz’s show today and heard that too. I share your anger!
You can go to CNN’s website/Howard Kurtz and leave a comment :
pat deadder – I too am Canadian and this case piqued my interest because of the Sunshine laws making the evidence available (that we do not have), the gun laws (that we do not have) and the notion that, in America, all men are created equal when the system does not appear to support it.
Personally, I have written to my MP and the Prime Minister to see if there is anything Canada can do to help an apparent crisis (maybe in my eyes only). My God, we are neighbours and we love our neighbours.
I will make one small comment and then step aside for the discussion on this complex perspective. I don’t care if putting GZ away changes anything. Trayvon deserves at the very least that justice.
You have to start somewhere…we live in an incrementalist society…anything more is fatalism in my opinion. The DOJ is not done and while I share, Professor Leatherman’s cyncism, power concedes nothing without demand (Frederick Douglass), it is important to battle and win on both fronts not to push the act that brought us all her to the background.
I do agree, and I know that others will be better than me at pushing for both goals. At this time, I only have room for Justice for Trayvon, and am grateful that others have room for more. I will watch and learn.
Speaking candidly, I know that many people are pouring all they can into Trayvon and this case. The suggestion that they are doing something wrong or futile or not simultaneously critiquing the larger forces at work…well I struggle to find the right words to describe that type of framing. Every force, every energy, every voice pushing towards Justice on whatever level is positive IMO. Multi-modal attacks are best to bring down the beast of the system and those who are enabled within that system.
[ “Every force, every energy, every voice pushing towards Justice on whatever level is positive”—written by That’s so]
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Beautifully stated!
I agree with almost everything I see here, and it is not impossible for it all to work in some kind of synergy if we start with a trial, conviction and sentence for Fogen for killing Trayvon Martin. The reason I think it has to start there is that Trayvon has already entered the realm of the symbolic “life after death” that is so essential to Western Man’s emotional generator. We speak of Fogen with horror and even with hatred but that kind of energy, that is, energy generated by that kind of emotion, is short-lived and can burn out. Much more enduring is the kind of energy that originates in those memories that keep us going when we suffer grievous injuries ourselves. I hate to use a cliche, but think of the soldier who takes a bullet and immediately screams out, “Mama!” He is not concentrating, at that moment, on the nasty, hated, enemy who shot him; he is reaching for the energy that relates to his earliest and strongest memories of sustenance and comfort.
From the beginning of my blogging on this case I have wanted to concentrate on Norman Wolfinger, Bill Lee, Patty Mahaney, Tim Smith, and those other officers who obviously (soooo obviously that it is infuriating to realize they have not been charged with federal crimes under the civil rights act) did two things that interlocked to make this case the horror that it was:
1. They obviously refused to respond to citizen complaints about danger caused in the RTL community by Fogen patrolling around with his loaded gun, and then they intimidated one or more witnesses who objected to that passive concerted act of community endangerment;
2. Once their conduct led to its inevitable result and “somebody [got] killed,” they covered it up and tried to prevent other witnesses from giving valid information about the crime that had taken place.
These two conspiracies, together, even included giving knowingly false information to the media to try to create the impression that the RTL community was enduring a crime wave which hero Fogen was attempting to quell.
What we must do is to continue to access this energy even after the “killing of Trayvon Martin” itself is “resolved” by the criminal justice system’s ultimate response to Fogen as a defendant. We must try to revive and direct outrage at what happened so that the Department of Justice does not give us the three-finger salute (that is, folding pinkie and thumb and leaving the middle three digits standing while saying, “read between the lines”) while ignoring its responsibility to prosecute Wolfinger, prosecute Lee, prosecute Mahaney if she substantially took part (which I suspect she did), prosecute Tim Smith, prosecute all the others who were involved in either paragraph 1 or 2 of the criminal conspiracy listed above.
If we cannot do this, we still should not underestimate the value of what the Fulton-Martin family, with Sharpton, Jackson, Crump, Jackson, and two million (plus) others have already done by insisting that Fogen be prosecuted. Indeed, the value of what they/we have done cannot be OVER-estimated. But it should give rise to a series of widening concentric circles that will not stop, and we should do our best to add movement to that action.
Indeed…without a conviction – those you mentioned have done nothing wrong. How the heck do you widen the concentric circle if the facts state (after trial) that fogen was justified. Put one foot in front of the other…get the conviction and the facts and law firmly beside you, then go to the DOJ (while not saying it has to wait, it is always good to continue to pressure them) with something that can’t be disputed. When the jury decides he was not justified then all who sought to cover it up are culpable.
Yes, yes, Malisha!
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And, I will always keep your concluding sentence with me:
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” But it should give rise to a series of widening concentric circles that will not stop, and we should do our best to add movement to that action.”
It’s a necessary step in the process.
I think it is both/and and I think we all have it in our wherewithal to focus on the act and the larger dynamics in play.
Further, call me naieve but to say that GZ is a pawn is also to say that Trayvon is a pawn. I reject that notion soundly. I’m not willing to become ho-hum about a conviction in THIS case because of systemic racist that devalues black life. Losing this case, gz walking free sets us back years and places a target on every living black boy out there today. I’m not willing to negotiate that sacrifice.
In terms of Angela Corey, I think her history as a tough prosecutor speaks for itself. She has a history of going after people who commit crime. I see her role as setting a standard that all life has value not as a cynical ploy to cover for anyone. She needs the SPD to prove her case and has always been cop-friendly. She is not an anomaly just what she does. If she didn’t have a history of doing this…yeah, maybe…but she is doing what she has already done. IMO, a flimsy branch to lay an argument of conspiracy.
And while Jordan Davis’ life was not spared, the legacy of Trayvon Martin is such that his murderer is facing 1st degree murder charges. I don’t believe for one second that if not for Trayvon and all the media attention, that Davis’ murderer would be in jail right now.
You may very well be right. Trayvon’s legacy is already doing great things.
I think were it not for Trayvon’s murder, that loser mighta thought twice before pulling a gun out on those kids for talking back to him. i think this because i’ve come across people who haven’t followed this case. they’ve seen the news clips and maybe a few articles online that have mostly portrayed gz as innocent. so with that, they go about their day thinking GZ is going to get away with it.
these people are only hearing Omar’s BS and GZ’s brother’s BS because obviously the state is NOT trying the case in the media like they are. so basically omar’s plan is kinda working. but it’s only working on the disinterested, the ones who aren’t truly interested in the whole story.
The lawyer for Michael Dunn is Robin Lemonidis. In 1992, Mrs. Lemonidis was awarded the “Pride in Excellence” award by the State Attorney, Norman Wolfinger.
I read awhile ago that he retained private counsel from Palm Beach to replace her.
Is she still on the case…I thought he had a new lawyer or does he have two?
Being a tough prosecutor is not a value in itself, but may in fact be part of the problem.
If I believe, as a I do, and as Whonoze and others here seem to, that Fogen is part of a larger symptom, than it does not help as Treeslaw rightly points out, incarcerating him may well be a pseudo-solution. I at one point meditated if the complicated scenarios presented here by some in fact try to put this simple fact into a coherent story, which is still nothing but a story or fiction.
The ideal scenario would always be to understand what really happened. As Frederick has pointed out in an earlier article, this is not what the usual activities of the attorneys/lawyers are about, the defense attorney is as Jeralyn Merritt terms it always on the side of the defendant. The only thing that does not and will not matter too much in this process is what exactly caused the confrontation. I am still with Serino in this context, this would be the most interesting question of all for me too. But only the knowledge of what exactly happened, with a main witness that cannot testify anymore would help society to learn and draw the correct conclusions.
My belief is…if we prosecuted all as equally and vigorously under the law, we wouldn’t have as draconian laws. There is no question in my mind the fogen should spend the rest of his life in prison, like most other murderers do.
I would disagree that we need to know exactly what happened since we will never know. Fogen will never tell the truth and as you said, Trayvon can’t speak for himself. We won’t get the minutia but the big story is there for all to use as an example. To wit, a black kid in the rain walking isn’t suspicious. Even if you deem him suspicious (wrongly) let the police handle it. Chasing and confronting is not SYG. In this day and age, people with resources and access to the media care about black life and so you can’t write any off.
I can live with those four paradigm shifts as they present a change. We are having so much difficulty with enablers and the media because the four things I’ve outlined above are not a given. There will still be hold-outs but establishing these things via the trial immeasurably makes black boys safer. Trayvon was the snowdrop of the avalanche moving toward tougher gun control. To say, his case is doing nothing to move this country forward on all levels – when we have people here saying – this case starkly points out we haven’t come as far as they once thought…sorry, I’m not dismissing that…nor will I let the perfect be the enemy of the good. To some, it may be small a victory but to me and others this case fundamentally will show if our black boys can get justice. I won’t downplay that at all.
This is more important than correcting whatever.
thank you Treeslaw/Whonoze for this statement:
This is in fact what makes me feel completely uneasy or made me during my earliest encounters with voices here.
I am not up to the challenge of grasping “evil” over the centuries but I seem to be returning to the 19th over and over again in this context. It seems to have the highest impact on our perception.
A discussion of whether or not Fogen is “evil” is not really a part of this issue in my opinion. We really dont’ care if other accused criminals are “evil” when the state prosecutes them for violating a section of the criminal code. In fact, we often see an accused criminal as being “good” if he or she did something we would agree should be done, but for the criminal law. What I think most of us began to identify as “evil” was the aftermath of the killing, because we were watching in horror as the admitted killer first came up with a story that was transparently untrue, then callouosly blamed the victim for his own death, then engaged in a smear campaign against his victim while promulgating an image of himself as the big victim, then stated in public that he had NO REGRETS. Shock replaced horror replaced indignation replaced disgust and waves of negative emotions engulfed us one after the other until we could hardly manage to keep from identifying the process we were enduring as EVIL. But it’s a killer’s privilege to say whatever he likes, and it’s our privilege to think him evil.
Back to the “res gestae,” or the real deal involved in this prosecution, and we have this: for better or for worse, whether good or evil, Fogen expressed malice toward Trayvon, then followed him, then killed him, then pretended he had been viciously, indeed “savagely” attacked, and then broadcast a big boo hoo poor me dog and pony show to the public for ten months. If you think he’s good, that’s fine, and once he’s in prison, he can be a good prisoner. If you think he’s evil, that’s fine, and one he’s in prison, he can “get religion” and see if that helps. Maybe some pen pals will write to him to try to engage him in mail order saintliness. Who knows? Who cares?
Malisha, I can see all you see and I do in fact believe that Fogen is a manipulative authoritarian personality. I am even prepared to accept that he killed Trayvon to ultimately silence him for his own benefit and not since he felt he would die, to e.g. obfuscate the fact that he had in fact tried to stop Trayvon with an assumed authority which he hadn’t, which would have had legal consequences. What would his pretrial diversion program have meant in this context? His ill-conceived attempt to blame the accuser for something he had been accused of in reverse (his ex-girl friend)?
And it dawned on him that it would get him into trouble and quite possibly render impossible his envisioned future career as a judge or law enforcement officer.
But somehow I am not prepared, at least not without much more evidence that there was a bigger Taaffe, Osterman et al conspiracy to kill a black boy. Exactly since I think the whole explanation lies with Fogen and not with however sympathetic larger circles. For me that deducts, it doesn’t add to the scenario.
[“…the institutional structures that created the climate in which he could be killed and have his killing ignored will be rolling right along, thank you very much” —whonoze]
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.I agree with whonoze. I hope the FBI does its job as it examines the SPD and I hope the SYG law is reexamined to at least correct the problems within it.
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From reading various articles lately, I have concluded that we are entering an eerie period that demands we be vigilant and involved. There is definitely a concerted effort out there to blatantly erode the advances of the last half century.
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One example can be found in this article:
.CLICK>>http://docjt.newsvine.com/_news/2012/10/26/14724109-mississippi-town-sued-over-school-to-prison-pipeline-cnncom
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Here is an excerpt from the article–
“Washington (CNN) — Federal civil rights lawyers filed suit Wednesday against Meridian, Mississippi, and other defendants for operating what the government calls a school-to-prison pipeline in which students are denied basic constitutional rights, sent to court and incarcerated for minor school infractions.
“The lawsuit says children who talk back to teachers, violate dress codes and commit other minor infractions are handcuffed and sent to a youth court where they are denied their rights.”
Also–
“About 86% of the district’s students are African-American, but all of those referred to the court for violations were minorities, the government suit said.
“The federal action came more than two months after the Justice Department warned local and state officials that they had 60 days to cooperate or face a federal lawsuit.
“Deputy Assistant Attorney General Roy Austin said Wednesday that Mississippi officials had failed to cooperate with the eight-month investigation.
“We had no choice but to file suit,” Austin said, giving examples of what he alleged are unconstitutional actions taken by the school district and court:
“• Children are handcuffed and arrested in school and incarcerated for days at a time without a probable cause hearing.
“• Children detained wait more than 48 hours for a hearing, in violation of constitution requirements.
“• Children make admissions to formal charges without being advised of their Miranda rights.
“• Children are not routinely granted legal representation during the juvenile justice process.
“Austin said Wednesday that Meridian is not the only location in the country with such a system. However, he said, it is the only one to date where local authorities have not been fully cooperative with federal investigators.”
I want to apologize if I have gone too far off topic with my post above.
I do not believe you have gone too off topic. In fact, I think your example is perfect. The murderer is only a symptom of the problem. For him to actually believe the murder would be swept under the carpet is proof that the system was on his side until it was put in the public forum where many, many said — not THIS time!
Here is a story along those lines. We are seeing a change in the system all right, but is it the change we want to see?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/28/courtni-webb_n_2376833.html
Rachel…..that is unbelievable!
Things are really getting bad. We cannot be caught sleeping when these things are happening. I know we have to watch out for ALEC but I still do not completely understand all that ALEC does.
OK, this girl was suspended for writing a poem that she did not even turn IN; she WROTE it. How is this different, in substance (obviously it is different in effect because she is being suspended rather than incarcerated or killed), from the reports from various Middle Eastern countries of people being charged with major crimes for either speech or writing. It is no different. Allowing this high school girl to be punished for writing is allowing our society to become as bad as any society can ever become — we’re just not there yet, but we are on our way. If the girl’s parents do not sue on her behalf, I will be disappointed.
It’s a private school, not a public one, so First Amendment rights don’t apply. Due process isn’t required either.
SYG law was an expansion of the so-called “Castle Doctrine.”
The “Castle Doctrine” basically said that you were entitled to defend yourself from a home invasion even by the use of deadly force and you weren’t required to “back off.” That was because “a man’s home is his castle,” so he’s king there. He’s the decider. If he thinks he’s being attacked, he can kill.
Even like that, it can go wrong. There was a case described in a book written by a psychologist about psychopaths. It was a real case. A young woman went to the psychologist for help with her depression and emotional difficulties relating to the fact that her father had been wrongly convicted (she thought) of second-degree murder simply because he had shot (dead) a burglar who was victimizing his home and family. The facts were that the father was a high school principal, very highly respected in the community. Some guy tried to break into his home while the family slept and he grabbed a gun and ran downstairs. The burglar had already fled and was outside, running AWAY, when the principal shot him in the back, killing him. When he was charged with Murder-2, there was a giant outcry because, after all, he had a right to defend his home. He got convicted and went to prison. The young woman started to see her psychologist and told the story. But the story developed. It turned out that the principal knew the burglar. They were involved together in some drug deals. The principal had apparently hidden a large quantity of drugs in his house and the burglar was trying to get his share or something. The principal realized, while the burglar fled, that if he (the burglar) lived to tell the tale, the principal was busted. So he shot and killed the man on purpose. Although he was convicted of Murder-2, it was actually Murder-1. When the girl discovered the real story that had occurred, she realized that the father had played poor victim for so long, dragging the family and the entire community through Hell, and that he didn’t care about any of that. She realized he was a psychopath.
OK. Back to the foundations of the “Castle Doctrine.” It related to a time period when there were kings, and castles, and around those castles, walls and gates and moats, and around those moats, land that was populated by the peasants who owed the kings (or lords) taxes out of the food they grew and out of the trade they did and out of the livings they made. And the kings and lords were the deciders about lots of things, including crime and punishment.
Even to say “a man’s home is his castle” is to relate, in a sense, to that gestalt.
But then the SYG laws began to do something else; they began to EXPAND the castles so that a man’s home was his castle and other places, in public, were also pieces of his castle, and those pieces were movable pieces, and he got to decide where his castle was at any given time, and it was always pretty much wherever HE was at any given time unless he was in somebody else’s castle.
So then, a guy like Fogen can leave his castle-home, get into his castle-shtruck, drive around the neighborhood, and go somewhere in public where he still believes he carries his kingly prerogative to be master of his castle. This belief in his kingly prerogative leads him to decide to restrain and interrogate an intruder into his now much larger castle (so much larger, in fact, that he cannot remember the names of the streets!). When the intruder does not respond with appropriate respect to the king of the castle, the king (the decider, remember) may choose to apply whatever discipline is needed.
The “castle doctrine” is leading us right back to the feudalism it arose from. And so long as we have corrupt police departments and local governments, and negligent state and federal governments, that path will become inexorable. Because only when someone is willing to say definitively, “Your idea of your rights in your castle, and indeed in your rights in the expanded castle you imagine you rule, do not and cannot negatively affect the rights of other persons who are not your subjects.”
Thus, the prosecution of Fogen is a very important statement about how is king of what, and how far reaching each kingdom can be.
Malisha- indeed, this is a good assessment. Many Zidiots praise GZ exactly because he “protected his neighborhood” ie was a beneficial lord keeping his subjects safe. Such noblesse oblige! But GZ is nothing but a murderous loser in a kingdom where he didn’t even OWN a castle. He was paying rent on a hovel like many renters. His new castle will have bars. Lots of bars.
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Malisha — loved your explanation. I heard of some of the dangers of SYG. Here is one: One partner in a business wants to sever ties with his business partner and isnt getting the deal he wants in order to do so. He invites the partner out for a drink and a disagreement ensues. The disagreement turns physical. He shoots the partner dead claiming SYG. Many, many witnesses corroborate his story and his problem is solved.
[ ” only when someone is willing to say definitively, “Your idea of your rights in your castle, and indeed in your rights in the expanded castle you imagine you rule, do not and cannot negatively affect the rights of other persons who are not your subjects.” Malisha]
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[ “Thus, the prosecution of Fogen is a very important statement about who is king of what, and how far reaching each kingdom can be.” Malisha]
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Thanks for your clear and helpful post, Malisha.
Actually, O’Mara has conceded that SYG and the castle doctrine do not apply and the evidence will show that, as a matter of law, the defendant was the aggressor.
As the aggressor, the defendant can use deadly force in self-defense only if,
(a) Trayvon responded to his aggression by using more force than was reasonably necessary to defend himself;
(b) He reasonably perceived that Trayvon’s use of such force created an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury; and
(c) He attempted to end the confrontation and withdraw before he used deadly force.
O’Mara announced at a press conference that he will argue that the defendant could not withdraw before using deadly force because the defendant was lying on his back unable to withdraw with Trayvon straddling him raining down blows MMA style and slamming his head into the concrete sidewalk.
Those are the basic three questions that the jury will have to decide.
The Court will instruct the jury to presume the answer to all 3 questions is “Yes,” and the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the answer is “No.”
Professor, thanks for the clarity.
The three questions. I love them. I always love “three questions.”
(a) Did Trayvon respond to Fogen’s aggression by using more force than was reasonably necessary to defend himself?
(b) Did Fogen reasonably perceive that Trayvon’s use of such force created an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury to himself, to Fogen?
(c) Did Fogen attempt to end the confrontation and withdraw before he used deadly force?
No need to empathize, strictly, but Malisha always manages to put matters really simple, without missing the central points of the story.
Maybe my resistance to an enlarged group of players really has to do with the fact that by adding you detract from this (frightening) core story about assumed authority for me.
[“(b) Did Fogen reasonably perceive that Trayvon’s use of such force created an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury to himself, to Fogen?”]
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I think it should be noted that all of gz’s perceptions were false and not normal that night.
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1. gz’s perceptions that made gz suspicious of Trayvon were way off base.
2. Including Trayvon in the group of a$$h@les who always got away and the “f@cking goons”
3. Not having the ability to know that there was an address on a house on TTL.
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These examples prove that George’s ability to perceive accurately and reason normally were impaired that night.
This question is the central issue in contest:
“[“(b) Did Fogen reasonably perceive that Trayvon’s use of such force created an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury to himself, to Fogen?”]”
Obviously, in the first instance, there is a profound lack of evidence that Trayvon used any force against GZ that night.
In the second instance, what force did Trayvon have to use? He had no firearm, since we know and witnesses and GZ himself, testify that GZ had secured his weapon. The fact that he could grab and hold Trayvon with one hand, while he held his weapon close to Trayvon, shows that GZ was not in any danger at all.
A person in grave danger of death or great bodily injury, does not devote one of his hands to the low priority and ineffective defense action of holding their attacker by the center chest of his clothing.
It takes two hands and all of ones might, to deal with a potentially fatal attack.
GZ will have to demonstrate some good and sound reason, that people should believe that an unarmed, 150lb, 17 year old, is a deadly threat, capable of killing almost instantly. A “mama’s boy” yet, who has no fight training at all, who has never been shown to have fought with anyone and who was terrified of GZ.
There are pictures taken later at the station, which show that the blood seen in the picture taken at the scene — less than 2.5 minutes after GZ claims he was attacked and injured — had ceased to flow in less than 2.5 minutes after he was wounded. A medical profession will most certainly contest that these wounds were the product of actions that occurred less than 2.5 minutes before the photo was taken. A blood spatter expert will also agree that this blood exhibited will have been older than the supposed contact having been made.
Lastly, no witness has come forward, who has observed TM beating or attacking GZ, and that is confirmed by the autopsy findings, where there is no GZ dna on Trayvon’s hands.
So, with all these separate materials in agreement, it is impossible to see — where GZ’s belief that a deadly threat confronted him — comes from. All of which comes as no surprise, once people learn that GZ is a capable and baldfaced liar!
Arizona also has a school to prison pipeline. I notified SPLC long before the current set of rightwing politicians came up with all their current anti-immigrant laws and ploys – and within months they started shining a light on AZ.
What people – especially people over at the Treestump – don’t seem to want to think about is how easy it is to get suspended from school – even arrested at school – in this sort of political climate. Many states are trolling for “customers” for their juvenile systems as well as for their prisons. Most of these “customers”are not white, so it’s easy for white folks to carry on about how “if you don’t do anything, you won’t get punished”, and and it’s all too easy for them to call people of other races thugs and worse when they’re discriminated against.
As a teacher, I watched certain school administrators create havoc in the lives of brown kids while ignoring white ones doing the same things, mostly stuff that would get you a small reprimand or a few hours in detention at one time.
By the way, powerful comment, Whonoze!
Thanks for your excellent input, Two sides!
Sounds like Jim Crow with a side of Plessy v Ferguson, and a soupcon of suspicion of Emmet Till.
yep
Click> Vagrancy Laws, Poll Taxes, Financialization and the School – Truthout
“Jim Crow continues to stalk Mississippi with an assortment of old black codes and a newer, corporate-inspired school-to-prison pipeline that so blatantly exploits the state’s African-American youth, the federal government has been compelled to intervene.
“On October 25, 2012, the US Department of Justice (DOJ) filed a civil rights lawsuit alleging the City of Meridian, Mississippi has been running a “school-to-prison pipeline,” having students arrested and sent to a detention facility for minor infractions like: wearing the wrong color socks, flatulence, untucked shirts and going to the bathroom without permission.
“After detention, students are then required to appear before a youth court, where they are denied legal counsel and rights of due process. According to an article in theHuffington Post:
“Students are handcuffed and arrested in school and sent to a youth court and denied constitutional rights for minor infractions like talking back to teachers or violating dress codes. The lawsuit states they are then transported more than 80 miles to the Rankin County youth detention center, reports the Associated Press.
“Most students are placed on probation where future school violations may be considered “probation violations” that must be served in jail at the Juvenile Detention Center.”
In this article Daniel Weil notes
“Like the black codes, vagrancy laws and literacy tests before it, Meridian’s school-to-prison pipeline appears to be anther swindle to disenfranchise and economically exploit African-Americans under the canopy of an insidious and virulent New Jim Crow.”
Weil also discusses the GEO GROUP…. which is a for-profit prison operator which ran 3 prisons in Mississippi up until April 2012 including the Walnut Grove Youth Correctional Facility……..noting that “incarceration of disposable youth is big business.”
In March 2012, GEO settled a lawsuit brought by the Southern Poverty Law Center over the conditions at the Walnut Grove facility.
“US District Judge Carlton W. Reeves, in approving the settlement, stated the GEO Group “has allowed a cesspool of unconstitutional and inhuman acts and conditions to germinate.
“A report by the DOJ found the state showed “deliberate indifference” in failing to protect youth from harm in seven major areas: sexual misconduct between guards and inmates; use of excessive force by guards; excessive use of chemical agents; poor use-of-force policies, reporting, training and investigations; youth-on-youth violence and sexual assault; and seriously inadequate medical and mental health care. Sexual misconduct, it said, “was among the worst that we have seen in any facility anywhere in the nation.”
“After the settlement, GEO ceased operations in Mississippi and quietly left the state.”
Weil pointed out that Well Fargo is the second largest investor in the GEO group.
“At the end of 2011, Wells Fargo was the company’s second-largest investor, holding 4.3 million shares valued at more than $72 million. By March 2012, its stake had grown to more than 4.4 million shares worth $86.7 million.
“Interestingly, the Portland Independent reported:
“According to documents filed with the SEC by GEO Group, Wells Fargo has served in the following investment banking roles to GEO Group: underwriter, trustee, broker-dealer, documentation agent, joint book-running manager, initial purchaser, dealer manager, financial advisor on acquisitions, and exchange agent. Wells Fargo raises funds for GEO Group in the capital markets by selling both stock and bonds issued by GEO Group.
“GEO has contributed to many state and federal politicians–
“GEO Group has been a contributor to numerous state and federal politicians, using government-obtained revenue to lobby politicians for additional favorable legislation.
“GEO’s notorious and openly flagrant influence-peddling in Florida and Texas were reported by Dina Rasor in Truthout.
“One notable Mississippi politician GEO Group has contributed to is Videt Carmichael, a Mississippi state senator from Meridian.
“Carmichael deserves mention because he sits on both the education and corrections committees in the Mississippi Legislature, and is a former Meridian teacher and principal.
“Carmichael is also not surprisingly a member of the ALEC education task force.
“As a state senator from Meridian, a recipient of contributions from the GEO group, and member of the Mississippi education and corrections committees, Carmichael has been notably silent about the mistreatment of African-American youth at Meridian’s school- to-prison pipeline, Meridian’s youth detention center and the Walnut Grove Youth Correctional Facility. As of this writing, I have been unable to find any reference to his speaking out on any of those issues.”
It’s stuff like this that can make us despair. But the information is now publicly available. Again our voices, voting and buying power and eternal vigilance will bring change. Alas it’s slow. Painfully slow. But we cannot advocate vigilante intervention, Star Chamber justice. So we push and keep pushing.
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Wasn’t it ALEC that handed the Florida Legislators the ready-made (already written and ready to go) SYG law to legislators to use and submit in their state legislature?
[“It’s stuff like this that can make us despair. But the information is now publicly available. Again our voices, voting and buying power and eternal vigilance will bring change.” Cielo]
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Yes, Cielo. That’s why I had to post the lyrics of the Garden Song below. We CAN be effective…..one step at a time…..inch by inch!
YAHTC- yes I saw that! I really liked that, never heard the song. But it illustrates exactly what our responsibility is as citizens and members of a society. Like good gardening, it never ends. Along with this case, there are others out there. We shine light in the darkness. Thank you for the lyrics if that song.
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Cielo,
You can Google search the song by typing ” Youtube Garden Song Pete Seeger” and hear Seeger singing it.
Thanks! I will.
Sent from my iPod
@ Nef, lol! 😆 You got the recipe down exactly!
I’ve seen plenty of cases like that on Infowars. It is completely messed up for them to arrest a child in front of everyone, then deny them the constitutional rights that any adult would receive. I liked Whonoze’s post, but police corruption is more widespread than just covering up the murder of a teenager. Just look at how many people are murdered every day by police officers that abuse their lethal weapons called tazers.
Still think the police exist to protect you? Think again…
It is NOT the duty of the police to protect you. Their job is to protect THE CORPORATION and arrest code breakers.
(SAPP vs. Tallahassee, 348 So. 2nd. 363, REiff vs. City of Phila. 477 F. 1262, Lynch vs. NC Dept. of Justice 376 S.E. 2nd. 247)
Here are some other mind blowing laws that will make you think twice about this country.
http://usahitman.com/liamdk/
Whew, Dennis. I am printing that out for my husband.
printing the link, that is.
I don’t buy that USA Hitman conspiracy stuff. It sounds like the old Lyndon Larouche propaganda. And I didn’t click on its link to learn how President Obama is working to destroy our rights, nor on its link to sign a petition to “Restore Our Gun Rights.”
The US Supreme Court said, in “In re Gault,” in 1967, that a juvenile cannot be subjected to criminal proceedings with less Constitutional law protection than an adult. The juvenile was entitled to notice of the charges, freedom from self-incrimination, representation at all stages of the proceedings, the same rights at trial and the same rights of appeal. Yet I have begun to see news from all over the country that these rights are being denied, wholesale, and nobody is taken to task for it. Public interest law firms are overburdened by the huge onslaught of civil rights denials for all sorts of cases, death sentence leading the parade. Money for legal watch organizations has dried up with the economic crises in the country as taxpayers’ money is thrown at banks and big corporations to bail them out while they commit outrages on ordinary citizens and even more so on juveniles who are utterly unprotected. This is what I call “seriously not great.”
Well, Luce, my husband dismissed the print out of that link with no interest in it.
Thanks for the heads up, Luce.
Oh no, Malisha. We need legal watch organizations!
How have the legal watch organizations been funded up to this point, Malisha?
Most legal watch organizations are already on shoe-strings. The shoe-strings get tighter in times like this. I was once part of a group that did legal watch for free, but we had zero power and no lawyers working for us. It’s getting worse and worse out there. You would not believe the number of people who come out of court proceedings dazed, saying, “That’s it; I’m gonna go public” and they don’t even realize that there is no such thing as “going public” because nobody cares about anything. At all. Everybody’s in a desperate race to pay the next month’s rent and avoid foreclosure, besieged by problems and health care difficulties, ripped off by the insurance companies and the predatory credit, squeezed to the limit. People who have a little money are getting 20 to 30 e-mails a day begging for contributions to everything, all worthy, but all desperate. People who donate ten years of their time to trying to deal with one or another great social problem (especially involving the courts) will end up like me, which is to say, not very rich and not very powerful and unable to change either factor.
Once back in 1988 I heard a woman come out of the courtroom and say that very sentence, “That’s it, I’m gonna go public,” and the lawyer who was standing in the hallway right under the sign talking about the law and freedom burst out laughing. Here we are, 20 years later. Unfortunately, that guy DID have the last laugh.
I hear you, Malisha. You hear “follow your heart” but there’s no money at the end. After 20 years of teaching and I don’t even own my own home. Yeah I’ve made the world better. But not enough. It gets discouraging.
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A teen who came into a pizza joint with several others, who is said to have not known that the others planned to rob the business, tried to flee and was shot 3 times in the back by an off-duty sheriff who was in the pizzeria. The primary suspect who had a gun, was wounded and survived, has been charged with manslaughter in the death of the teen who the off duty sheriff shot and killed.
http://www.wifr.com/home/headlines/Family-of-Rockford-Teen-Killed-in-Maries-Pizza-Robbery-Suing-Winn-Co-Sheriffs-Department-171813661.html
And what was the reasoning by that cop (and I use the term loosely) for shooting a FLEEING person IN THE BACK? Those are the LEOs I have no respect for. Alas there are too many if them.
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He is LE with a gun. That’s the reasoning. In the same city, at least 5 others, all unarmed, have been killed by cops this year. That doesn’t include those who died after being tazed.
But Cielo, thank you ❗
In those 20 years you did sacred service and it’s one of the few kinds of work that really accomplishes something. My mother was a teacher. She was dynamite PLUS and she was in the first generation of “remedial reading” teachers, before that was really a concern or a subject. Before her, kids who couldn’t read just got pushed through the public schools until they could get pushed OUT of the public schools to go to work doing something at minimum wage and never getting beyond that. She taught 22 classes of kindergarten and first grade students and never had a single non-reader in the bunch.
I should stop bragging about my mother right now, this was meant as a thank-you card to you.
People like your mother are giants on whose shoulders I stand. I love teaching children. I, too, would take a bullet for them. But my field needs so much reform, new inspiration and societal support. But there are generations of teachers behind me. There are generations of kids before me. Who knew that keeping them safe would be a concern?
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i win!! LOLO
Only because I let you. LOL
I think whonoze is giving himself way too much credit. these are not original ideas. many here continuously discuss these issues. maybe he hasn’t bothered to read other’s posts but i assure you they are here. Malisha has done FOIA request to find more information into the actions of the SPD. Xena has also brought to our attention examples of the misconduct. basically we’ve all looked into SPD’s long history of institutionalized racism.
people here including myself have for months said the *system* that allowed GZ to walk at first did in fact enable GZ’s actions for a very long time. and this led to Trayvon’s murder.
the behavior of the SPD in some ways has been recognized. time will tell if it’ll be cleaned up. but as of today the COP has been fired and SA is gone. that’s a start.
as for the theories into someone besides GZ being involved, those were legitimate concerns that needed to looked at. that’s called exploration of the circumstances around the case. and as for as i’m concerned there’s still the question of osterman’s presence on the scene so fast. i’m looking forward to the trial for some answers.
So no, i’m not impressed with whonoze’s opinions. maybe it’s because they’ve been heard and discussed before. i think they’re redundant and condescending..
“The real story here remains not the little man who killed an unarmed teenager out of his own weakness, but the racist law enforcement regime that chose first to look the other way, and then to cover up their own misconduct with bogus reports and evidence tampering. Until I see actual evidence to the contrary, I shall continue to believe that Angela Corey is covering for this regime and it’s crimes, that the State’s game is to sacrifice the pawn named George Zimmerman to protect rook SYG, Queen SPD and King Rick Scott. ”
at this point GZ’s imprisonment is still the *real story*, as far as i know, GZ is still responsible for the MURDER of Trayvon Martin.
and whonoze, you’re so wrong. GZ is no pawn, he’s a POS killer- like it or not. and no matter what anyone else has done, putting the killer away is not a “sacrifice” in this game, it’s justice.
so until GZ is put away, you can think whatever you want, but i can’t blame the “queen and king” for what they *haven’t done* about the SPD. there’s still things we are not privy to, so i think you’re putting the horse before the cart.
ZING! There are several issues here. GZ going to prison for murder, and the corruption in the SPD. They may be connected but not synonymous. Our current focus is putting GZ away. En route we can strike blows against the SPD. There is much work to do.
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Yes, shannoninmiami, these issues have been addressed by many of us before…..and, yes, we are indeed directly working toward justice for Trayvon.
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However, I like the fresh manner in which whonoze has reminded us that even AFTER the trial is over, there will still be institutional injustices that we as Americans continually need to address. Therefore, I will still keep my sleeves rolled up to help my country remove those injustices.
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Maybe, all I will be able to accomplish is to shine a light in those dark corners and hope people much more capable than I am will be able to push toward rectifying the wrongs.
Well, I think whonoze has been here and has done extensive detective work surrounding this case.
Shannon, with all due respect. I can understand why people are obsessed with Osterman, Taaffe, jun, sen. or Gladys and whole series of other characters including Shellie. They are available after all.
If you want to know how Osterman could get so fast to the scene, you should start with the facts. When exactly did Smith with Zimmerman leave the scene, how long would it take Osterman to get from his house to the scene. It feels Sanford is not that huge and Shellie probably called him immediately.
Theories only get valuable theories, if they are rooted in provable fact, in fiction you are free to add almost everything you like. The problem is, does it make sense, does it bring us closer to the scenario that night?
Can you try to explain to me why paranoid Fogen, the hunter of young black young males, maybe even Fogen the bi-polar psychopat does not satisfy you? Fogen the self-perceived master profiler? It was after all Fogen who shot and paraded his “wounds” after, no?
Do you want to somehow exculpate him by making him a member of a larger conspiracy? He was only made ultimate perpetrator after his dice had cast wrong number? with the rest of the conspiracy receding into the shadows?
Nah, good stories have many characters in them. And each of those people are already such caricatures that its humorous. Shellie, the white trailer park wife standing by her man. Taafe the drunk loser. Osterman the sleazy ex-cop. It reads like a made-for-TV movie! It’s just human nature to want to add more layers of weirdness to an already strange story.
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I’m not sure what you’re saying?
Are you really saying that it’s futile for me to wonder why and how osterman got to the scene so fast? Because with all due respect I don’t remember myself or anyone else becoming obsessed with it. No obsession with anyone else that I know of either. It’s just a question I personally haven’t been found a satisfactory answer for yet.
BTW. I don’t have all the facts yet, but one fact is osterman lives in Lake Mary, a couple of miles away from Sanford. not exactly right around the corner. It’s also a fact that he was right down the street at the bank at 6:30. So call me a conspirator if
you want but I’m not the only one 🙂
As for that other stuff about
explaining to you what does and does not satisfy me, I think you’re putting words in my mouth and I haven’t a clue WTF you’re talking about.
This is Malisha. I don’t care who takes credit for good ideas; I want to hear them, I want to read them. I want to thank everyone who puts them up here, whether I “get” them or not and whether I agree with them or not. Sometimes, of course, I admit that I back off an idea because it takes too much figuring or more reading (of the evidence dumps or articles or something) than I want to do right then, or because my memory is taxed. But that’s to be expected. I wish I could understand this whole case. Whoever helps me understand even the smallest piece of it — thanks! 🙂
Yeah,i don’t care who finds out what either. that’s not what i’m saying.
i guess i didn’t make myself clear.
i’m saying what whonoze is saying is not a revelation.
i’m saying i know i personally (and others) have talked about the issues w/i the SPD and SPO many many times. these ideas have been a major subject of conversation before; therefore i don’t appreciate being told i’ve wasted my time in focusing on other aspects of this case because whonoze decides his theory is the only one that matters! pluleeeezzzz 🙂
Shannoninmiami- sometimes whonoze comes across as pompous. Keep up your good work. Although the prosecution doesn’t need an airtight story, it would be satisfying to develop one. I’ve changed my mental version numerous times and there are still details that make no sense to me.
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you can say that again!!
but lately i’ve been thinking of those hollow point bullet.
i saw some lady ( on TV ) get shot 5 times, she’s hit with 5 bullets and she lived! she was about the same weight as Trayvon.
why did that POS use those bullets? those are for killing a human being.
if not for that hollow point bullet Trayvon could have lived even if he was shot 5 times!!!
Maybe not. The bullet was very close and directly into the heart. The one thing hollow points do is NOT come out the other side. I think that is the main reason GZ used them.
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The main reason they don’t come out the other side is, they break apart inside and do greater and more lethal damage. The hollow point bullet breaks into high speed shrapnel, tiny fragments that
go tearing their way through more tissue over a wider range area than a solid bullet would. Thus the chances of them causing unrecoverable damage, like striking nerves and causing severe
hemorrhage in a variety of tissues, makes them extraordinarily lethal.
Which is why police forces don’t use them and even the military has outlawed their use by international convention. So, what are they doing in the hands of a mere Neighborhood Watcher? He intends to have a sure kill when he shoots.
When I had a .25, I was told to use hollow point bullets because regular bullets of that caliber would just make the crazed person who was stalking and threatening me mad. I walked into a flee market in Michigan and bought them — no questions asked.
I’ve heard stories like that too, but they’re mostly bravado, people fear guns if they’re smart. The power of a gun is in the knowledge that even a small caliber can be lethal, depending only on luck. If they want to take a chance that the next shot won’t kill them, then yeah, they can keep charging. Most attackers won’t. Because they don’t even want to bleed.
The object of police work used to be to arrest the suspect and bring them before the courts. I don’t see where GZ has ever been attacked by anyone as an adult in this community. Except for that dog he purchased the gun to ward off. It’d be nice to know that other people were also so afraid of that animal that they to had to carry a weapon to walk around there. More likely, GZ was afraid of animals, because he had a habit of trespassing?
The reason for the gun is because there was a big man who stalked and threatened me throughout 3 law enforcement jurisdictions. He got the phone numbers for where I worked and my home, and consistently made threatening calls. (This was back in the 90’s when technology for phones is not like it is now.) What happened is that during a casual conversation, he bragged about beating a person to death, and I realized it was someone I knew.
The three LE jurisdictions could not get on the same page. I had already maced that son-of-a-bitch and he kept coming towards me. He was a drug user and alcoholic so had false courage. The chief of police in the town where I worked was the one who advised me to get a gun.
(I didn’t want my husband to pull out his Saturday night special and kill the guy either.) It’s not my nature to want to kill anyone — I just didn’t want to be killed. My nephew is a licensed gun dealer and suggested the .25 because I originally asked about a .22. I simply wanted to stop the guy if he physically approached me again and let the police take care of the rest.
As it turned out, as he was sitting in his car right down the street from where I worked, going back and forth making threatening calls from a pay phone across the street. When I realized where he was, I called the Chief who sent two cruisers. That guy took off like a bat out of hell, went the wrong way down a one-way street and ended up crashing his vehicle into a light post. He was arrested for destruction of public property and traffic violations — made bail, skipped town, and was never heard or seen again.
A detective stayed on the case because he was sure that the man was the murderer.
Wow! Scary stuff! As evil as it sounds, too bad the wreck didn’t kill the SOB. Leaving him alive just means he could do his evil elsewhere. It sucks being stuck between compassion and pragmatism.
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The detective was on his heels, found out some connections with arson too, and the various names that he used. That also taught me that when it comes to LE, in spite of circumstantial evidence, they really prefer confessions or eye witnesses before charging.
It has to be hell being a fugitive. With his drug use, I suspect he probably OD’d at some point and is now 6 ft under as a John Doe.
Xena- and maybe his death was the result of karma after all. I don’t know. We make our own hells. We can escape them, too.
Enough being so somber. I’m grateful you were unharmed and put into a position to use that .22.
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Yeah a .25 is a small calibre all right. I wonder about the calibre of the Kel-tec. Something to Google!
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9 millimeter, which is very close to a .38 caliber
Thank you Professor!
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Just by buying those bullets, which were presumably for a defense against a dog, GZ shows a depraved indifference for the lives of others. He had ensured that a gun he carries everywhere is extraordinarily deadly, over and above any need for self defense.
A gunshot wound will usually stop all but the most crazed assailants, not because the first wound is so bad, but because any wound can be deadly. Thus, most criminals will not take the risk of being shot, and will stop when they see that their opponent is armed.
If, however, they are armed and get the drop on you, or if they take your gun away, it doesn’t matter how deadly your weapon is.
I think, when the jury learns about hollow point bullets, and how GZ, who brought the gun to shoot a dog, keeps it loaded with hollow points, in case he comes upon a human target, they’re not going to feel very good about what his intentions were towards his fellow human beings.
GZ is a really creepy person in my book, a menace to society! The greatest number of people locked away in prisons have never killed anyone at all. So, that puts GZ in the worst percentile of offenders.
And this thing, has the gall to talk about keeping the neighborhood safe! The State needs to keep the state safe from him!