Open Thread for Saturday, December 29, 2012

I have decided to start an open thread every day for awhile, in addition to any new posts, to see how things go.

We now have so many participants that the threads are getting very long and take forever to load.

Let’s see if this helps.


405 Responses to Open Thread for Saturday, December 29, 2012

  1. whonoze says:

    I would like to offer a speculative, though I think quite plausible, version of how the struggle between GZ and TM occurred.

    Trayvon was heading North on the dog walk, having reversed direction when he saw Zimmerman coming from the South. The part of him that was still a “mama’s boy” was scared. But another part of him of pissed. He already had plans to enlist in the Air Force with the hopes of learning aviation mechanics. He probably was well aware of the trials he would go through in basic training, and spending at least some time steeling himself for the rigors of the military. Basic ain’t for sissies, and he would have to prove himself as “a man” in order to get to his career goals.

    So he would rather get away, but he’s not going to skeddadle like a scared chicken. “Red White and Blue: These colors don’t run.” So he just “walks fast”. This allows GZ to move faster and close the gap between them. When he can hear GZ right behind him, Trayvon says to himself, “I’ve had enough of this shit!” turns and confronts Zimmerman, “Why you following me for?!”

    Zimmerman pops his first cork. This asshole has the audacity to question HIM? I don’t think so. HE will ask the questions. “What are YOU doing around here?!” He’s filled with macho aggravation and steps closer to trayvon, violating the young man’s personal space.

    Trayvon reflexively shoves him away. Zimmerman pops cork number 2. He takes this not as a natural defensive move, but, in his imaginary cop-hood, as a violation of the commandment, ‘You Do Not Touch An Officer Of The Law!” He feels he has been violated attacked. He pushes Trayvon back, harder. An arm flailing grab fight ensues.

    Zimmerman does not have control of this situation. And he NEEDS to establish control. So he decides he must take Trayvon to the ground. He grabs the young man’s hoodie under the shoulders and uses his superior weight to pull Trayvon to the ground. The upright grab-fight turns into a wrestling grab fight, with Zimmerman attempting to get Trayvon into one of the pain inducing holds he’s learned from Osterman. But Trayvon’s arms are too elusive and quarters are too close.

    As they roll on the ground, GZ’s head rolls over sharp edge of the broken sprinkler cover, causing two small lateral cuts. They’re shallow, and they don’t begin to bleed immediately.

    GZ sees that the lights are on in John and Jeremy’s units. He can probably hear Jeremy’s TV through the open rear door. He may even see John through John’s rear window and/or see Jeremy having come out on the porch to see what all the ruckus is about. He starts yelling at them for help.

    Trayvon is on top at this point, though GZ is holding onto him for with Tugboat tenacity and the Trayvon’s arms are still flailing. John goes to his back door, see’s Trayvon on top with some kind of arm motion, yells “I’m calling 911” scurries back away from the door, gathers up his fiance, goes upstairs to hide, and DOESN’T call the cops, at least not right away.

    Trayvon is confused by the turn of events. He had figured GZ to be some kind of predatory pervert, but what sort of creep yells to the neighbors for help? In his puzzlement, he relaxes his resistance just enough that Zimmerman, who popped cork number four when he felt the sting of the cuts on the back of his head, is able to pull a reversal, get on top of Trayvon, and put the young man’s right hand into that excruciating wrist-lock Osterman taught him.

    Trayvon begins screaming in pain as W11 calls 911. Zimmerman just twist’s the lad’s wrist even tighter. He’s starting to feel the blood drip down the back of his head now. He means to hold his captive at bay until the cops get there, no matter what.

    Trayvon just screams in anguish for awhile, and then that military ambition kicks in and he fights through the pain enough to take a weak left-landed shot at GZ. His ring cuts his own finger and nicks the bridge of Zimmerman’s nose. The punch may have glanced off the lower part of the nose to also cause a minor nose bleed.

    Getting hit in the face, however ineffectively, is too much for control-freak George. He’s all out of corks, so the bottle breaks and he pulls out his gun and aims it right at Trayvon. He says something to the effect of “Shut the fuck up, and lie still.”

    Of course, Trayvon refuses to comply. Seeing the weapon, he screams louder and struggles harder. So Zimmerman goes Dirry Harry, and shoots the “crazed thug” through the heart.

    • cielo62 says:

      Whonoze- good narrative. The only thing is that Trayvon didn’t have a ring on.

      Sent from my iPod

    • blushedbrown says:


      Good scenario, very plausible.

      I differ on a couple of points.

      1) John is the only witness who places Trayvon on top. He will not change this point on any of his statements. He has changed several things but not this.

      Witness 19 contradicts John’s statement of who was on top when he said he was calling 911. She states in her audio statement with Serino on March 10th, track one on Axiom. The following:

      She says and I will paraphrase a bit. She opens her door to let her dog out, she starts describing John talking to somebody, and she sees the young boy was on the ground. Moaning and groaning, saying help me help me. She clearly hears him say he is calling 911. She places the “kid” on the ground (her words)already when John comes out.

      This places witness 19 and witness 6 arriving at their back doors almost at the same time. But she sees and describes the “kid” on the ground not GZ . Calling for help, not GZ as John says.

      Serino says, “This all happen after the fact”.

      How is he groaning and moaning saying help help me if he was already shot?

      This makes no sense medically to me if he had a shot through his heart and his lungs are filling up with blood.

      For Trayvon moaning and groaning talking and asking for help that she can clearly hear, after he was shot doesn’t make sense to me. If she is describing this after Serino’s statement. “this all happen after the fact.

      How does anyone with a gunshot to the heart be able to do that?

      I don’t think she was describing after, I think she was describing before and during, even though Serino said that.

      On the other hand, if he was still talking after the shot, and GZ sat on him and pressed on him, only accelerated his death. IMO

      John is the only witness to claim to have seen Trayvon on top.

      I don’t believe him.

      Along with witness 19, almost all the other witnesses place GZ on top.

      2) Nose:

      I differ on your point, I am a firm believer that it was the recoil.


      No ring was taken into evidence per discovery documents.
      No ring was ever mentioned that he wore by family.
      No ring on finger at crime scene.

      • I don’t believe Trayvon ever was on top and I do not believe anyone will believe anything W6 says because he told such a specific and detailed lie about Trayvon raining down MMA style punches.

        The guy is a liar and he obstructed a homicide investigation with a lie calculated to deceive and exculpate the defendant. Why would anyone believe anything he has to say about anything. I certainly would not and I don’t believe the jury will either.

        In my experience, jurors disregard anything a witness like W6 has to say following the once-a-liar-always-a-liar rule.

        BTW, Trayvon was not wearing a ring.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        blushedbrown, you are correct.

        Witness 19 definitely described Trayvon as lying down moaning for help (the kid) at the same time that Witness 6 was on his porch. She clearly says she went inside and locked her door at the point when Witness 6 said he was going to call 911. She was inside when she heard the pop of the gun.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        You are welcome, blushedbrown. You contributed important facts in your post. I also find your other postings to be perceptive.

      • Mirre says:

        I don’t think John is a liar, but he is a terrible witness. He didn’t say what he saw, but he gave an interpretation of what he thought happened. These people all went outside and talked to each other. Osterman said that one of the police officers told him, that GZ was clean or something to that effect.

        John said in one of his statements, that GZ was wearing a red or a white jacket. He may have been influenced by what he saw later or by what his neigbors said.

        • ” He didn’t say what he saw, but he gave an interpretation of what he thought happened.”

          I call that lying.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Hee, hee… Same here Professor. There is absolutely no reason at all, for an impartial witness to state that they saw something they could not have possibly seen.

            We knew the minute we read his statement, the very first time, that he was lying and had seen no blows at all. We knew that because we did not believe that a non-combat trained youth, would not risk challenging a big, scary adult stalker who was aggressively following him. The evidence later confirmed what we already suspected.

            Just as I, for reasons I gave, suspected that GZ did not spot TM by FT’s place. Many disagreed back then, but finally the evidence came out to prove that. It should be over on the in the earlier days around May, June or July. I forget exactly when we had those discussions, I have never heard anyone tell me “good catch Lonnie” on that hahaha. So, I don’t expect to hear any accolades when the blood evidence sinks GZ’s ship for once and for all either.

            But no, Trayvon did not throw any blows, not even accidental ones. When he asked “why are you following me for?” GZ grabbed him by the shirt and pulled him in close and began to question him. TM, in an attempt to break free, dropped to the ground, hoping to use his weight to break GZ’s grip. GZ held on tight and toppled down on him.
            They wriggled around, both trying to get up. GZ kept a tight grip on TM’s clothes as they both tried to rise to their feet. TM made it to his knees about the same time GZ did and GZ drew his weapon and put his gun to him and fired.

            John had probably only come out to give GZ some encouragement, but ran back inside because he didn’t want to be an eye witness of the actual event (although he probably did, but is just lying about going back inside to keep his need to tell lies to a minimum).

            I think people are giving some of these witnesses and the SPD a benefit of doubt they clearly no longer deserve! After they’ve tried to tilt the evidence against the innocent party, they’ve abandoned their posts as peace officers and become a menace to society. Only the Feds can cause justice to be done because Florida would not do it on there own. Only under the watchful eye of the Justice Department, will they even pretend to conform to the law. Meanwhile, the Justice Department and the Congress and the President, needs to take national action to bring these rural police departments in line with their Constitutional mandates, otherwise the thugs and rogues that have broken into them will take over and discredit the law nationwide.

            Look around the nation on the net and you’ll see hundreds of “Sanfords” happening around the nation. This is the result of things years, even decades in the making, and it has got to be stopped for once and for all. LE should not be under as much suspicion as it is today. But it is, and that suspicion is growing with each new episode of wrongdoing. If it keeps on this way, there will come a “straw” that will “break the camels back”. Allowing things to continue to progress towards that point, does nobody any good.

          • cielo62 says:

            Lonnie- I had stated months ago my theory that both Trayvon and GZ were in kneeling positions but a “physics expert” assured me that I was wrong. The physics support either standing or kneeling. Eye witnesses don’t support the standing option. Your story makes sense to me. Good work there. ;).

            Sent from my iPod

          • blushedbrown says:


            Sorry this is late, Good Catch! I know you are a very good commentator on Bcclist and here. Your posts are very valuable to me and continue to look forward to your posts.

            Once again, Thank You.


        • blushedbrown says:

          I respectfully disagree.

          I think he lied. I do agree that he is a terrible witness, to be totally honest most eye witnesses are.

          Yes they did go outside and sort of compared notes per se. But I do find that out of all the witnesses, he is by far the worst.

          IIRC, Osterman spoke to three officers at the scene, if I find document will post.

          • Xena says:

            Yes they did go outside and sort of compared notes per se. But I do find that out of all the witnesses, he is by far the worst.

            John is very telling. What sane person, who doesn’t know GZ, wants to talk to him right after he killed someone? The same goes for Jon who took the photo BEFORE the police arrived.

            What made them so confident that they would not be shot?

            It shouts — screams — partiality towards GZ and prejudice against the real victim, Trayvon Martin.

          • blushedbrown says:

            I know this is going to sound bad Xena,

            but here goes the answer that comes to my mind from your question…

            What made them so confident that they would not be shot?

            The threat, the black person on the ground was dead. Therefore there was no threat to them.

          • cielo62 says:

            True. The Southern Racism that makes Trayvon’s death acceptable to them also makes them feel secure in the presence of a murderer.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            @Blushedbrown. BINGO! Which is why I say they are prejudicial and partial to GZ.

          • blushedbrown says:


      • Mirre says:

        Are you saying he had the intention to deceive? I would’ve agreed with you if he had not changed his statement.
        I don’t have much faith in any of his observations and I don’t think the jury will either, but that doesn’t mean that he is a liar.

        There were only 2 good eyewitnesses in this case. Selma and W18. Both are able to distinguish what they saw and heard at the time from what they learned later. Both these witnesses watched for a longer time. All the other eyewitnesses, including w6, only watched for a brief moment.

        Austin saw only one person on the ground with his back towards him. His immediate impression was that the person was hurt.
        I don’t think there was only one person there, but that the other was hidden from his view.

        W1 initially said she saw 2 people chasing each other, but later she changed that.

        W6 initial statement was very incriminating towards Trayvon. I think we can say that his bias’ colored the narrative he had in his mind.

        I don’t think it is necessary to call him a liar, bad eyewitness will do.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Errr… He didn’t change his statement because he realized it wasn’t true, it will come out that he changed his statement, because what he claimed could be shown to be untrue.

          The question is, why did he tell such a story in the first place? Obviously he never saw any blows being thrown, so why did he make that story up? In a situation where a life hangs in the balance.
          He fabricated a story that would have let the killer go free. That’s a lie!

          He had to back off, or else tell that same story under oath. Or, he would be called to the stand and have to take the fifth. Nope, there’s no excusing him, he lied, plainly and simply! Nor was he an impartial witness, he knew the person he was helping with his fabricated story.

        • He’s a liar AFAIC, so we will have to agree to disagree.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I’m with you on this Professor, look at how long it took him to change his story. I sincerely doubt his story would have changed, if there had not been revealed such a massive wave of evidence against his claims.

            In fact, since there were FBI agents going around and reinteviewing witnesses, my guess is, he changed his story when he realized they might be looking at him as someone who was also involved somehow.

          • racerrodig says:

            I’ll second that he’s a liar and that makes it official.

          • Sorry to hear about your dad, Race.

            Many blessings to you and your family in the coming year.


          • racerrodig says:

            Thank you from the bottom of our hearts.

      • Mirre says:


        “Hee, hee… Same here Professor. There is absolutely no reason at all, for an impartial witness to state that they saw something they could not have possibly seen.”

        You begin with that statement and then follow it up with all kinds of speculation for which you don’t have evidence.

        We all knew that things couldn’t have happened the way W6 described it, because we had other evidence. We knew Trayvon wasn’t a thug, but a 17 year old kid, walking home from the 7 eleven. We had seen the video of GZ arriving at the police station.

        I try to understand what kind of person the witness is, take into account the duration they witnessed the events, the angle from where they were watching the event, whether they could’ve been influenced and by whom, the timeframe they were watching. I also take into account that this must have been a very stressfull event for all the witnesses.

        There are things we can learn from all the witnesses, even the ones that don’t make sense.
        W19, the sister that was cooking in the kitchen w1 or w2 and w6 are chaotic in their timelines. All three have a problem with proportioning time on the timeline.
        Mary is an empathetic witness, Selma’s observations became entwined with her own.

        W11 is actually a good witness for the prosecution. After she made those statements about how poor GZ was the victim here, she told how she came to that conclusion. The officer showing a picture of GZ with blood on his face, and somebody saw how he was beaten up. That tells us quite a bit about how the witnesses were influenced even before they made their statements, and which witness had an influence on which witness.

        She also made one very damning statement for GZ. She
        described the beginning of the verbal exchange as three exchanges that sounded like “what are you do”. That matches what Deedee heard.

        John said some interesting things too, if you strip away his narrative.

        He was watching and listening from upstairs after GZ shot
        Trayvon. He had time to see what they were wearing, he heard GZ claim he shot Trayvon in self defense, and he volunteerd that it hurts getting your head banged on the concrete, while it was obvious from his statements about the event, he never actually saw GZ getting hit with his head on the pavement.

        In his second interview he said GZ was wearing a light colored shirt, white or red. In his first interview he said red, but I think he saw the red color after the shooting, when there was more light.

        What I also find very interesting was the change in position he described.
        According to him first they were positioned on the grass, feet pointing towards him. He said he could see the face of the person at the bottom partially, because he was attempting to sit up. He couldn’t see the person’s face on top, because it was facing away from him towards the buildings on the other side of the path. Then he says they moved up and parallel to the sidewalk with the same person still on top. But he went inside immediately after they moved.

        That change in position doesn’t make any sense if the same person who was still on top was holding the bottom guy down. The grass slopes down from the path towards W6’s house. They didn’t roll towards the path.
        John is either full of it or the person on top was trying to get up and move while the one on the bottom was holding on to the person on top and was dragged into another position while trying to stop the person on top from getting away.

        I’ve practiced judo for a number of years, I know the physics of ground fights. If the person at the bottom had the physical strenght to move his own body plus a resisting body on top of him up a slope, he would’ve had the strenght to throw the person on top of.

        The person on top would’ve been able to drag a resisting body underneath him up that slope, only if the person he was dragging was considerably lighter.

        My conclusion is that if what W6 said is true, GZ was trying to keep Trayvon down, while Trayvon was trying to get up and away.

        • blushedbrown says:


          I am going to make a point of reviewing all audio again, from all witnesses. You’ve pointed out alot things, that are compelling.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Very interesting, Mirre.
        Now my question is……could gz have rolled from the position on the sidewalk in such a way that he would have been on top at the end?

    • gbrbsb says:

      I find most of the narrative highly possible but would add I think GZ grabbed and tried to question Trayvon about what GZ imagined were his accomplices, i.e. burglars working the retreat, and which is what Trayvon´s screams “I don´t know (em)” were answering to. Also as others note it appears Trayvon did not have a ring so it may be he hit GZ with his mobile or the iced tea or even with his fist or elbow as the scratches could be totally separate from the blow to the nose, for example walking into trees in the dark.

    • Mirre says:

      I don’t think Trayvon went south. It just doesn’t fit Deedee’s statements. With Dave’s videos and the clubhouse videos, it seems clear where Trayvon began to run. Exactly where GZ said his car was parked. That is maybe 150 ft to the T. He wouldn’t have been out of breath 4 minutes later. The only reason that explaines why the altercation began near the T, I believe is because Trayvon returned there after he thought he lost GZ. I think he turned around, because he realized, how dark the dog path was, and GZ was so close behind him, he could just turn around and address him.

      I think the fight started how fights usually do, with shoving and pushing. I think Trayvon probably turned around, about where GZ said Trayvon was standing, but instead of Trayvon coming towards him, GZ walked towards him and shoved Trayvon.
      I think you are probably right that GZ blew up, when Trayvon questioned him.
      I don’t think there were punches thrown. I think GZ grabbed Trayvon to hold onto him, and I think Trayvon tried to get out of GZ’s grip and may have hit him in the process.

      I really don’t know if the abrasion on his finger had anything to do with the fight. I usually have a cut or abrasion somewhere on my hands, but of course it could’ve happened during the altercation.

      I believe he really got pissed off when Trayvon started to scream. I also think GZ realized he was in trouble. That is when he pulled out his gun and the screams turned into these terrifying yelps.

      He shot him probably in anger and because he knew he was in trouble.

      • Jun says:

        Trayvon did head south down the back pathway, and then headed north up the back pathway toward the T…

        this is what fits the other witness testimony as that is what they saw…

        check the final dead body position

        witness 1

        witness 2

        witness 18

        Even witness 6 mentions it further south than where GZ stated it happened

        considering their testimonies, Trayvon had to have headed down south and then was chased north toward the T

        Witness 8 cant tell anything of the scenery as she is simply an ear witness, so she can only tell what Trayvon told her and also relay what she heard

        I agree that Trayvon ran from Fogenhats’ as Fogenhats was stalking him by car

      • Mirre says:

        W1 saw something moving from th corner of her eye. She was not wearing her contacts. First statement she said she saw a foot chase. Later she wasn’t sure what she saw. W18 never mentions seeing anybody going south to north.

      • Jun says:

        Witness 1, does not need contacts

        she stated that she heard a kid making strange noises and she saw what looked like a struggle, south on the back pathway

        Witness 2, states she saw a chase from south to north, and she also heard it more than she saw it, and she attests it going from south to north, and she heard someone scream NONONO or YOYOYO and then it was silenced with a gunshot

        Witness 18 says she places the defendant as the aggressor and the victim, Trayvon, as the person screaming for help. She also stated she can point out where the confrontation occurred to when the killing and shot occurred

        Trayvon’s body was found about 50 feet south of the T point, and west of the back pathway, on the grass, head facing north, facedown

        Trayvon’s items were all strewn south of his body

        That shows that the witnesses and the debris evidence which shows a trail, points to the fact, everything moved from south to north

        Now include the fact that Trayvon lives south on the back pathway, and he was heading home and stated to Deedee he was by his father’s house…

        it shows that he was somewhere south on the back pathway

        for the defendant to have to stalk and then confront the victim, the defendant would have had to be south as well

      • Mirre says:

        If you listen to w1 in the fdle interview, it is very clear that she saw the struggle in front of John’s house. She describes John coming outside and saying he was calling 911 when she looked outside. Her drawing looks like she saw it south of her, but she began with the figures and then drew in the houses. She just got the orientation wrong in the drawing.

        If you look at the pictures with the evidence tags, tag 6 is the body, tag 7 and 5 are the phone and the black flashlight. The phone and the flashlight are east of the body, not south.

        It is more likely w2 saw or heard Austin and/or his dog, he was south of where they were struggling, when his dog pulled away in the opposite direction.

        As far as I know w18 never made a statement about the encounter beginning south of where Trayvon was shot.

        I think by or near in Deedee’s statement are relative. If Trayvon had moved into another direction when he ran, and started walking back in the direction of his home after he thought he’d lost GZ, the T is near his dad’s home.

        I don’t claim to know where he ran to, but there is no physical evidence or eyewitness report that places Trayvon south of where he was shot.

      • Jun says:

        The T is not near Trayvon’s dad’s home

        & look at the crime scene layout with the body again

        The items are clearly strewn south of the body

        w2 is not a man, it is the lady who stated she saw a chase towards the T, but she moreso heard it more than she saw it, and then she heard a NONONO or a YOYOYO which were ended with a gunshot

        w18 stated that she can point out where the actual confrontation occurred and moved to for the killing… she stated that the police did not want her to tell them and locate what she saw… and the locations… she mentions it on another interview… she also mentioned on ABC pointing Fogenhats as the aggressor and the person confronting the other and the boy was the one screaming for help

        w1 pointed the kid making the weird noise and struggling, south of her house down the back pathway

        The story that makes the most sense, considering the evidence, is Trayvon was heading south down the back pathway, headed towards his house… then Fogenhats caught up and blocked his way south to home, so he chased him north, then confronted the kid and attacked him, and killed him, while the kid tried to move away from the Fogenhats and yell for help

        the directions of your story dont match the evidence…

      • Jun says:

        Look at it this way…

        if W2 places a chase from the south toward’s the north to the T

        and Trayvon’s body is about 50 feet south of the T, and west of the back pathway….

        for them to move north to that position for the final chapter of the story… they would have had to be further south than 50 feet

        • Xena says:

          Dave Kneckle’s videos really helped me to see/understand that area. For the longest, it was my impression that Trayvon was killed on the path that GZ said he took to RVC. But it didn’t look right and I couldn’t get my bearings. When the video took the car ride and stopped at the other end of the T, I had an AH-HA moment. Then, in the video that Dave does when interviewing Taaffe, he kept the camera on a section between the houses.

          Now, LLMPapa says that he believes GZ arrived to that area before Trayvon did and it was GZ who came through the bushes. Then, on Dave’s video, sure enough, there are bushes between the houses.

      • Mirre says:

        Near is relative. It is not an exact distance. When does near stop being near according to you?

        I didn’t say w2 is a man, The him I am referring to is Austin. Austin was moving from south to north on the path to where they were struggling. Austin lives south of w1 and w2. Nobody saw Trayvon or GZ moving south north. W2 heard someone moving south of where the struggle was taking place. Austin was south of where the struggle took place at the time she heard/saw that.

        The phone and flashlight were within feet from Trayvon’s body, all in front of w6 home. Moving one step and turning your body would get you there. If you consider that proof they moved from brandy’s house to the T, you have a very different perception of what is evidence than I do. Page 145,146,147 of the second dump will give you the exact location of where all the items were found.

        W18 wanted to show from which location she saw the incident not at which location the altercation began.

        W1 did not point south to where she heard the kid. She heard and saw it at the same time and location as w6, w19, in front of w6’s back porch, when w6 stuck his head out the door and said he was calling 911.

      • Jun says:

        I feel you have to relook over the evidence

        w2 clearly stated that she saw and heard a chase and a scream of NONONO or YOYOYO heading towards the T

        The T point is north


        she saw them move from south to north

        considering they both moved from Fogenhats’ car and ended up being heard and seen moving from south to north… their starting point of that witness testimony is south… hence both parties had to have been south at some point… so both parties would have had to move south first

        W1 clearly points to the encounter and what she heard in a southern region adjacent to her home and she heard a kid making a weird noise…

        considering where the body ended up, about 50 feet south of the T and west of the back pathway, and both their testimonies, the confrontation and struggle of the incident started south of the T point, further than 50 feet south considering where the killing occurred

        All of Trayvon’s items were found south of his body…

        That is consistent with him being attacked and dropping his items and the force from the defendant forcing the boy north, hence his items falling south of his body and also matches w8’s statement that she heard a bump, Trayvon yelling Get Off Me, and Trayvon’s phone dropping onto the grass

        I did see that page already, and all of Trayvon’s items were found south of his body… look again

        Trayvon’s dad’s home is found at a southern region of the back pathway, and it would make sense that Trayvon was trying to go home, since he was getting Skittles and Ice Tea for his little brother, and matches Deedee’s testimony… the defendant then caught up with Trayvon and started forcing him north, which matches w1’s testimony. Then when he finally caught up with Trayvon, he confronted him, approximately around 80 feet south of the T. and then the rest happened.

        W18’s testimony is the final chapter of the story… and she only witnessed it from the confrontation onward…

        the problem with your story is it does not think of how all the evidence ties together in a story line while mine does

      • Jun says:

        Today I figured I would cover the chase Trayvon Martin’s killer did to him, Cheorge Zimmernuts…

        Here is the evidence we have

        (1) Cheorge’s own phone call with police – it is very clear on the phone call Cheorge was stalking Trayvon and had ill will towards him. He provided evidence himself by stalking the kid and describing him to police, calling Trayvon an asshole who always gets away, a fucking coon/punk, then says “shit, he’s running” and proceeds to get out of his car and go after the kid. It was so clear what Cheorge was doing even the dispatch figured that he was stalking the kid, & tells him to stand down. Cheorge obviously refuses and continues his chase and stalking. Cheorge mentions 3 times that Trayvon is running away from him. The call ends at around 7:13:43pm.

        (2) Trayvon’s cell phone records prove that he was having a conversation with his girlfriend, who is codenamed Deedee (to protect her, and the reasons are many, as you may have seen the stalking and harassment and attempted intimidation from the Zimmernuts). Trayvon relays what he is doing and tells her of a creepy man stalking him. Trayvon runs for it and lets Deedee know. Trayvon is down the back pathway heading home, thinking he lost the creepy man Cheorge Zimmernuts, and starts walking back home. On part of the call, Trayvon relays that the creepy stalker is back and Trayvon continues to try to get away before being worn out and cut off and confronted by the creepy man. Deedee advises him to continue running but Trayvon says he is worn out and asks why the creepy man keeps stalking him. The confrontation begins.

        (3) There is a clubhouse video where I believe they are going to use the lights and video software to enhance what they are seeing. It is to show the general direction they are heading.

        (4) Witness 1 notes that she heard a kid making a weird noise and then heard a shot go off. She places the location of her testimony of what happened down south on the back pathway. This corroborates Deedee’s testimony and also adds more evidence that Cheorge continued stalking Trayvon. Her attributing the noises to a kid is also evidence that Trayvon was the one in danger, as he is the kid.

        (5) Witness 2 testifies that she heard and glanced at a chase that happened from the south, heading north toward the T. She heard yells for help, like a No No No or a Yo Yo Yo, and the screaming was ended with a gun shot. This also corroborates both witness 1, and Deedee’s testimony.

        (6) Witness 3 stated that she saw a man in a white top on top of another person and she heard screams for help and immediately called police. She states that the screams for help were halted with the gunshot. This is evidence that the screams of help were because of the fear of being killed by a gun, and then the screams were ended with the gun shot. This also adds to the evidence and corroborates the other 2 witnesses.

        (7) Witness 18 saw the encounter from the confrontation onward. She clearly notes by the tones of the voices that the aggressor was the adult, Cheorge Zimmernuts. She attributes screams for help to that of a young boy. She says that Cheorge was on top, killed the kid, ended the screaming with a gun shot, and simply rose up off the top of the kid. She can place where the confrontation instigated and where it moved to for the actual killing in the murder.

        (8.) Considering that Trayvon’s body was found about 63 feet south of the T, and to the west of the backpath way on the grass, head facing north, and the shell casing in a position where the shooter was facing north, along with a debris field south of the dead body, and the witnesses, the chase was started from Zimmerman’s car, then south down the back pathway, and then Zimmerman herded Trayvon north, and confronted him, instigated a struggle and then killed the kid. Zimmerman is clearly the aggressor.

        There you have it folks…. there’s more evidence of the chase but I figured I would just hit the strong points

        Remember the T point is north….

      • Mirre says:

        The body was found 40 ft south of the T.
        I listened again to the witness statements to be absolutely sure.

        W2 had just taken out her contacts and was walking towards the window of the top back bedroom window, when she saw something out of the corner of her eye, and she heard what she described as running feet. She and her sister live on RVC in the 3rd house south of the T, about half way between the gap between the row of houses to the south and the T.
        W2 didn’t see movement, but she had the impression the person was moving south north. When she was asked if the person would’ve continued on his path, whether they would’ve passed her house, she said yes. That means what she saw was south of her house.

        She heard the shot 15 seconds after she saw the person and heard the feet. We know from the other witness statements and the 911 calls, that they were struggling in front of John’s house at least 45 seconds before the gun shot. It is impossible that it was Trayvon or GZ that w2 saw and heard running south of her house.

        W14 or Austin, was walking his dog at the front of the houses, he went through the gap between the houses south of w2. He heard someone calling for help, and started walking north on the dog path towards the T and w2’s house. While on his way north, his dog got off the leash and ran south. Austin ran after his dog, got his leash and just started walking back north, when he heard the shot.
        When w2 saw and heard à person running just south of her house, a person was running at that time and location. That person was Austin.

  2. Judy75201 says:

    The Zimmerman men are all extraordinarily confident of their (perceived) ability to influence with words. Like a God/Fiat delusion.

    • jm says:

      Judy75201 says: “The Zimmerman men are all extraordinarily confident of their (perceived) ability to influence with words.”

      I noticed that. Especially RZ Jr. He thinks if he says enough words, he will convince someone he must be intelligent and therefore believable. Kind of like a politician. GZ goes more for the polite yes sir/, no sir to convince those he is trying to impress he is a respectable person that they should listen to.

      I think at the end of GZ’s trial they may come to realize their words are nothing but blah-blah-blah and that GZ’s actions speak louder than any of the gibberish they are throwing out, hoping to sway public perception of the reality which is GZ is a murderer and all of them are arrogant racists.

      • Judy75201 says:

        JM, Junior’s frustration at anyone contradicting him is both funny and repulsive. I wonder if the God thingy comes from Senior describing his “magisterial power” to his kids? Just speculating.

        • jm says:

          Judy75201: “I wonder if the God thingy comes from Senior describing his “magisterial power” to his kids?”

          I think RZ Jr is arrogant because of his father’s occupation but he is also quite full of himself in his own right. The God thingy is more BS, hoping to attract and convince Christians/believers that because they “believe” in God, they couldn’t be capable of evil, like a Zimmerman killing a black teen. It is all a PR and there is not a sincere bone in any Zimmerman’s body. They are liars and frauds and the more they speak, protest, and beg, the more disgusting they become.

  3. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    In the police dispatch records, who are the people designated by a capital “P” followed by a number?

  4. seallison says:

    There may, however, be a connection after they both left the police force in 1998. Osterman got in trouble because he was acting as a body guard without permission after hours. He and a fellow officer were providing protection to someone who turned out to be a fraud and a thief.

    Rumbaugh is in the body guard, process-serving, business. Maybe Osterman was hired by Rumbaugh after Osterman was fired.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the murderers 24-7 guards was Osterman himself. After Osterman went public and associated himself with his best friend, I would just bet Osterman needed another job. Perfect fit.

    Let us see what develops. Could be the issue with the overcharging surprise to MOM.

  5. You all have thoughtful comments says:

    This thread contains many insightful comments involving the case.
    It is good to read such postings that stay on topic.

    • seallison says:

      Further to the Osterman and Rumbaugh connection. I spent a little time last night because I knew that Osterman was fired along with a fellow police officer because of their dealings with a Juan Diaz. Rumbaugh was not the other officer. Rumbaugh comes with credentials including a member of a SWAT team, whereas Osterman was a cop assigned to a school. Don’t know how small the Deputy Sheriff community is, but they do not seem to have worked side-by-side.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I lack specific info on Chief Lee’s time with the Sheriff’s Dept. Can you provide me with any?

      • seallison says:

        This is an excellent article about Chief Bill Lee and how he became Chief in Sanford despite qualifications:

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks for the link, seallison.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        The following from your article link is an interesting, and I think, important piece of information:
        “Even in stepping aside, Lee caused a stir. On the day he announced he was standing down, Lee promoted five officers, including Steve Lynch, who was involved in a 2011 shooting of a black man in a Winn Dixie parking lot for which he was cleared, but which roiled the city’s black community, and Randy Smith, who was the sergeant on duty the night police responded to the Trayvon Martin case, but failed to make an arrest.”

    • seallison says:

      Bill Lee was an adjunct instructor at Seminole State College of Florida beginning in 1990. This is the same college Fogen went to.

      Bill Lee started this job around the same time Rumbaugh started his bodyguard enterprise and around the same time Osterman was fired for being an off-duty body guard.

      Lee became director of the college’s Center for Public Safety in summer 2009, a position he held until May 2011. He is not presently teaching at the college.

      Lee taught courses as part of the college’s Criminal Justice Academy. However, Zimmerman was not enrolled in the academy and did not attend these classes.

      • seallison says:

        Correction – the Osterman firing was 1998 and the Rumbaugh business started in 1998. (I mistakenly had 1988 in my mind – it is a very early Sunday morning!!)

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks for the info, seallison.
        Do you happen to know what Lee’s duties directly within the Sheriff’s Dept. were? Also, did Lee go directly to the SPD from the Sheriff’s Dept. when he became the SPD Chief?

      • whonoze says:

        Just because GZ was not enrolled doesn’t mean he didn’t attend. He could have sat in from time to time. Or he could have dropped by when Lee was around to chat him up. When I was teaching, I got to know students who weren’t in my classes, because they would come by with friends who were for a little socializing. Given GZ’s cop-wanna-be-ism, I can’t imagine he wouldn’t have taken advantage of the opportunity to introduce himself to Lee, even if he was in a different academic program such that he wasn’t a candidate for Lee’s courses. He may have hoped to enroll on that Academy at some future point, and spoken to Lee about it, for example.

        It seems GZ, Osterman, and Lee are all part of the same circle of acquaintances, however loosely, and if that is indeed the case, it would help explain some things, like why Lee showed up at the crime scene. I speculated earlier that T. Smith might have summoned him with a “we have a situation” type call on 2/26, and that may be, but Osterman may also have called him. Maybe BOTH of them called him, giving him an even more acute reason for concern. Either way, I’m still guessing Lee called in Wolfinger, and the wheels were rolling on burying the case against GZ very early in the game.

        Regardless, fascinating info seallison. It could all just be co-incidence. Or not.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Thanks for your additional insight, whonoze.
        Now, was Kelly, the Ass’t to Wolfinger who was at the scene or both of them? I know I read in the dispatch reports that Kelly was contacted.

      • Malisha says:

        You can hear, when Serino is questioning Fogen, that he just about asks about Lee when Fogen mentions attending class on 2/27/2012 as a reason he can’t meet Serino that day to do a re-enactment at the scene. It’s as if Serino was about to ask whether Fogen had a connection to Lee, but then the question kind of trails off and no more is said about it.

  6. seallison says:

    cielo62 – You could have hurt my feelings. I am not causing a distraction because this is an open thread. So, I would like to take the time to address a comment made yesterday.

    Goodbye seallison! Don’t let the crushing silence hit you on the way out! Nothing you posted is even remotely true. Feel free to head back to your cesspool @ CTH.

    Racism is a delicate subject and one that evokes emotion in many. I am not a CTH supporter. If you read upthread, I addressed that issue immediately. In fact, your statement is insulting. I do not post under different names. I am not a troll, either. It is unfortunate that you believe my comments to be untrue.

    But, let us just leave it at that and carry on.

    • SearchingMind says:

      @ Seallison/grahase

      I think what is meant by “Open thread” is ‘general discussions’ of the facts, the law and plausible theories about the murder of Trayvon Benjamin Martin and the murder trial of George Michael Zimmerman. Nothing more. Nothing less. This ‘cth-stuff’, this ‘imposter-thing’, the ad hominem attacks is really getting sickening. Besides they are your personal stuff which the participants here ought not be encumbered with. Pls. concentrate on the facts of the case, the law as you understand it, your own plausible scenarios of what might have happened on the fateful night of Trayvon’s murder, your opinion on the trial itself, the professional actors in the trial, Zimmerman’s lawsuit against the NBC/MSNBC and the civil lawsuit against Zimmerman. Feel free to let your ideas and power of fantasy run wild on these issues and let us debate those issues. Those issues alone. And nothing but those issues. These others stuff are really nauseating. Please stop. And move on.

    • cielo62 says:

      to seallison~I apologize. I was mean and angry as well and I lashed out. But I feel the accusations you were leveling were untrue. NO ONE had denied that racism is alive and well, and unfortunately thriving in parts of America or even worldwide. But I feel that the folks HERE take their introspection of personal racism seriously. Your words made it seem that no one here had the same passion for racism as you did. Your comments were also hurtful and confusing.   Let’s agree to let this misunderstanding go under the bridge. I know I am a racist. I have other prejudices as well. But I work on them every day.           om: Frederick Leatherman Law Blog To: Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:54 PM Subject: [New comment] Open Thread for Saturday, December 29, 2012

      seallison commented: “cielo62 – You could have hurt my feelings. I am not causing a distraction because this is an open thread. So, I would like to take the time to address a comment made yesterday. Goodbye seallison! Don’t let the crushing silence hit you on the way out!”

  7. sweetiepie says:

    Hi shannon!! (waving like a prom queen)

  8. sweetiepie says:

    Dont’ know if this has already been posted, so my apologies if it’s a repeat. In regard to the security company that’s suing Zimmerman.

    The suit was filed by CMR Associates, Inc (DBA Associated Investigative Services). According to the Florida Division of Corps, this company is registered and run by RUMBAUGH, CHRISTOPHER M. Googling Mr. Rumbaugh gives a page with his credentials. I seriously doubt O’Mara is going to get away with his accusations against this company. Rumbaugh was a LEO and has a Criminal Justice degree.

    Here’s his page on The Florida Association of Licensed Investigators.

    • blushedbrown says:

      Thank you sweetie for info.

      Hoping to get a copy of actual lawsuit, all 73 pages. Just sent a request to another blog about it per Xena’s suggestion.

      • sweetiepie says:

        I hope you get it. It’s a mystery as to why it hasn’t been posted by a media outlet. Everyone’s looking for it. I wonder what the big secret is? If it’s under seal, why is there anything out about it at all? Leaked by O’Mara as a fund raising tool?

        • blushedbrown says:

          I think the media is giving a pass per se as to not publishing it on their websites like OS. Their is alot of lost media interest in GZ as far as the big ones like MSNBC. They will report on small things from the suit but not the whole content of the suit.

          Once upon a time SCRIBD would publish anything regarding the case, it has now slowed to a trickle. Just like his donations. 🙂

      • sweetiepie says:

        But it’s not on the Orlando Sentinal, who is the only paper to stay on this story. And uh, oh…….look what I found about the guy who owns the security company. More drama!

        • Xena says:

          Looks like he has something in common with Osterman. Haha.

        • cielo62 says:

          This might explain why he decided to freelance ALL of the time and start his own business. I personally would make rape a death penalty offense, or life in prison without parole. Still, the scum was found guilty once, he will be found guilty again.


      • sweetiepie says:

        Last post for me tonight. This link shows (on the video still) that Rumbaugh was the bodyguard that took Zimmerman out of the jail. Osterman was the guard behind Zimmerman. So, it’s possible the infamous writer and “air marshal”, Mark Osterman, has been paid through this company as “security”. I wonder if he got fired after his Dr. Phil appearance.

      • sweetiepie says:

        Xena, Your post just appeared! Yes, a lot in common with Osterman! I wonder if they worked together at the Sheriff’s Department. It’s a small world in Seminole, I guess. Scratch, scratch.

      • seallison says:

        Both Osterman and Rumbaugh left the PD in 1998.

      • sweetiepie says:

        Seallison, that’s VERY interesting! And I think after reading some other articles about the civil case, I may have an inkling as to why the media outlets aren’t posting the actual law suit. There’s this talk that by putting details of the (long gone) escape plan in the suit, it puts Zimmerman in jeopardy. What a crock. But after his NBC lawsuit, looks like everyone is snake bit. If he falls down and stubs his toe, they don’t want to be sued.

      • Rachael says:

        @ sweetiepie:

        “There’s this talk that by putting details of the (long gone) escape plan in the suit, it puts Zimmerman in jeopardy.”

        Jeopardy of what, not being able to escape?

      • Rachael says:

        I just had a weird dream where he faked his death and escaped 😦

        • Xena says:

          @Rachael. I just had a dream where O’Mara brought the independent trust administrator into the law suit as a third party and then withdrew representing GZ in the criminal case.

      • seallison says:

        Rachael – I don’t think it was a dream. I think your mind was still trying to work on the case and figure out why the documents were not released. I did the same thing.

        Sweetiepies suggestion of an Osterman connection got my imagination juices flowing.


        I really do not think the so-called escape plan the OS is referring to was the one when he left jail. The security plan was overkill and they have provided so much piddly detail – for what. Made no sense to me.

        I really think they are alluding to IS an escape plan.

        – allow the murderer to leave Seminole County,
        – remove the ankle monitor,
        – change the administrator of the legal fund.

        That lengthy document likely has much to learn about within those pages… or it is nothing more than an inflated unpaid bill.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Good post, seallison. It is something to think about.

      • Rachael says:

        Thanks Seallison – sometimes I really think I am going crazy when I think of these things, but then, when I hear about the lengths gone to for security, it makes no sense for just the sake of security, so I really have to wonder.

      • sweetiepie says:

        I’m pretty sure it was just the plan after he was released from jail. Shellie mentioned it in her jail tapes. But it’s still fun to try to figure out crazy.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Great catch! So, Osterman feeds at trough of “defense” fund, stashes enough aside to assist the guy he’d die for, as he said on TV.

  9. seallison says:

    @shannon. What you posted to seallison, aka grahase. Don’t sweat it. It might be the same grahase who back in September was active over at the treeslum and who was subsequently criticized there for playing both sides of the fence.

    Sorry Folks – I went to the treeslum (as you call it) a couple of times and was banned almost immediately — never active there. If you call questioning a statement as playing both sides of the fence, that is your opinion. I would simply call it questioning or maybe even seeking truth. As much as you seem to dislike that site, it appears you spend some time over there in order to remember my participation of about 4 posts.

    And, you would be surprised to know that I was accused of taking AKAs there too. Strange. I have been grahase and have just changed it to seallison after the discussion about imposters and someone using my name – Sandra E Graham @grahase on Twitter yesterday.

    • Xena says:

      @Seallison. When you posted last night about your Twitter account, I searched for your handle and Twitter, thinking maybe I could detect something and be helpful. Your comments as “grahase” returned in the results and I saw where you posted on the treeslum. If you read my previous comment, then you know I saw that THEY criticized you for playing both sides of the fence.

      • seallison says:

        Then you know that I am not a treenut – especially if you read my comments. Thank you for trying to help out with the twitter thing. I took me quite awhile to figure out how to change everything to ensure there is no confusion.

      • seallison says:

        Xena – I have gone back to the Racism posting from yesterday. While some may not like my presentation, racism is a subject that evokes emotion. I can not take back any of the comments made. In fact, I would not. When I said it seems to be an us against them, I was talking about the subject at hand. The Nuthouse group being racist and this blog not being racist.

        My ire was raised when comments on this blog were made and not recognized as being racist and when called out the rationalizing started.

        After the exercise, if anyone believes there are no racists on this blog, then I will just shake my head and carry on.

        • Xena says:

          Well seallison, as you see, I made no response to your comment about racism — and I still have no response.

        • cielo62 says:

          Seallison~ I think you will find that many of us on this blog have admitted to our racism, its roots and causes, and what we are doing to combat it. To ALSO realize that things we did or said 10 years ago does NOT make us racist NOW, is part of our journey.I chided you on your angry confrontational style. Yes, racism and ANY -ism, draws strong emotions, but we must converse in measured tones to get to the LISTENING part before change can come.   Racists on this blog? Sure. Ignorant racists on this blog? Not a chance.


      • seallison says:

        Thanks, Xena.

  10. racerrodig says:

    The only thing missing is for Fogen to say…

    Tha,tha,tha,tha, that’s all folks !!

  11. Xena says:

    Don’t be fooled by the title. I needed a laugh.

  12. whonoze says:

    “I don’t think Fogen had a single injury that was inflicted by Trayvon, and I think the back-of-the head injuries were either self-inflicted or “friendly fire”–possibly from the butt of his gun”

    Give Trayvon some credit. He put up a fight until the gun came out. But it was hardly an MMA style affair. Neither participant shows any serious injury. In his 911 call, JohnW6 described the men as “wrestling.” DeeDee indicates she heard them go to the ground before the call cut off. I think it was a rolling on the ground, grabbing, pushing, pulling scuffle with very few actual punches thrown, and certainly none that did any real damage.

    Still, I have no doubt GZ’s minor injuries were inflicted in his scuffle with Trayvon. The cuts on the back of his head are consistent with his head rolling over an object with a sharp edge. The prime suspect here the the broken sprinkler cover in JohnW6’s yard, very close to the dog walk.

    I don’t think the cut on the bridge of the nose could have been caused by such an object. I think Trayvon caught him with a weak punch there, and his ring nicked GZ’s nose as well as making a small cut in Trayvon’s finger. A light blow that high on the schnoz would hardly result in a broken nose, and it’s telling that the swelling in the Wagner pic (Smith did not take pictures, try to keep your corrupt cops straight) is BELOW the wound, not around it, another indication the photo has been edited and the “swelling” exaggerated.

    I read a deeper subject in the unwillingness of commenters to believe Trayvon might have fought back enough to cause GZ’s little cuts and scrapes. I believe Trayvon is being treated as a symbol of slaughtered innocence, as if he were one of the kindergarten kids at Newtown who could do nothing when Lanza shot them in the face with his AR15. But Trayvon was not innocent in that larger sense. He was an almost grown young man, who had his good points, and his problems, like most teenagers. He should not be treated as a Saint, because that makes him one-dimensional. The tragedy of his death is deeper than any socio-cultural-political-spiriritual symbolism. It is the loss of a fully three-dimensional complex, fully human human being.

    I hope you don’t think you’re doing Tracy Martin any favors by insisting his son went like a lamb to the slaughter without even putting up a struggle. I would tell Tracy his boy showed some grit, and probably was getting the better of GZ in the wrestling match at one point, which is why the real asshole pulled his gun. The supposed bad-ass bouncer wasn’t tough enough to take a rail thin 17 year old with his bare hands. Imagine what that must have done to GZ’s self-image in the moment. Not the man you thought you were, Fogenstein? Well, you had your phallic power enhancer on your back hip, and you showed that coon-ass punk who was in control but good, didn’t you?

    • cielo62 says:

      I agree that Trayvin should not be canonized and turned into a caricature. But the forensics don’t show that Martin did any observable damage to GZ. No blood on his person. No bruises on the killer. I would hope Trayvon belted out a few punches but we will never know.

    • Rachael says:

      Thank you whonoze.

    • sweetiepie says:

      I think the back-of-the-head injuries were caused by the sprinkler head in the crime scene photos. I believe Zimmerman tried to detain Trayvon. I also believe Zimmerman had his gun out while he was hunting Trayvon in the dark (with his tactical flashlight) playing SWAT.

      “Dr Laurence Miller, a Palm Beach County clinical psychologist who works with local police agencies, said he believes Zimmerman likely was acting out the “whole TV cop role in his head” when he confronted Trayvon.

      “A lot of people like the power and control that law enforcement officers have but with that comes a tremendous amount of responsibility,” Miller said, pointing out that a police officer is the only profession that can use “coercive physical force” or lethal force to subdue a suspected criminal.

      “People act like cowboys and like the power, but not the responsibility.”

      • Rachael says:

        Makes total sense.

      • whonoze says:

        Like I said, give Trayvon some credit. Do you really think he would have said, “Why are you following me?” to a man holding a gun? Don’t you think he might have said something to DeeDee, like “Shit, this dude has a gun!” How do you get from the drawn gun to the “wrestling” observed not only by JohnW6 but by TeacherW18? (It’s a rhetorical question: You don’t.)

        The flipside of turning Trayvon into an angelic caricature is turning GZ into a demonic caricature. He pulled a gun on an unarmed teenager who had not hurt him in the midst of a grab-fight. That’s horrible enough. Then he shot him through the heart. Much worse. Then he acted as if he was the hero, lying up a storm and showing no signs of remorse (God’s plan, you know.) Just totally fucking disgusting.

        But that’s not bad enough for the people here who need him to personify TOTAL evil incarnate. He has to have planned the whole thing. There must have been a conspiracy to murder Trayvon. He cocked his gun, no knocked on his co-conspirators screen door!. He had a script in the truck with him, and he was whispering to Shellie or Osterman or the ghosts of James Earl Ray and Byron De La Beckwith! You give him too MUCH credit, as if he had superpowers. If he lurks here, I’ll bet he gets off on how bad you all think he is.

        But he’s just a small man. A fuck-up in denial of his own failures, A control freak who has never really felt in control of anything. He is, in the last analysis, nothing but small potatoes. But in the US any loser can get ahold of a semi-automatic weapon and turn themselves into a headline. GZ is the symptom, not the problem.

        The real story here remains not the little man who killed an unarmed teenager out of his own weakness, but the racist law enforcement regime that chose first to look the other way, and then to cover up their own misconduct with bogus reports and evidence tampering. Until I see actual evidence to the contrary, I shall continue to believe that Angela Corey is covering for this regime and it’s crimes, that the State’s game is to sacrifice the pawn named George Zimmerman to protect rook SYG, Queen SPD and King Rick Scott.

        I think people here are getting played by focusing so exclusively on Zimmerman. He’s become the projection of the Mighty Oz, so the men actually pulling the levers get ignored. I think it’s cognitive dissonance. You realize GZ may actually get punished for his crimes, but you don’t really beiieve the political structure that supports racist police departments can be challenged. So you focus on GZ because you have a chance of winning, which will allow you to feel better about the world and your place in it if/when he goes down. But, you’re like the druck looking for his keys under a streetlight because the light is better there, even though he lost them in the shadows up the alley.

        Because putting GZ behgind bars for the rest of his life isn’t going to change anything. Trayvon Martin will still be dead and the institutional structures that created the climate in which he could be killed and have his killing ignored will be rolling right along, thank you very much. Oh some of the names will change and the cards will get shuffled a bit. But the machine will grind on and the same shit will keep happening, just as it has already continnued to to keep happening in the few months since Trayvon’s murder.

        • Whonoze said,

          “Because putting GZ behind bars for the rest of his life isn’t going to change anything. Trayvon Martin will still be dead and the institutional structures that created the climate in which he could be killed and have his killing ignored will be rolling right along, thank you very much. Oh some of the names will change and the cards will get shuffled a bit. But the machine will grind on and the same shit will keep happening, just as it has already continnued to to keep happening in the few months since Trayvon’s murder.”

          I am very concerned about this too. I do not have any faith or confidence in the commitment of the U.S. Department of Justice and the FBI to root out corruption and prosecute the offenders in local and state police departments for violating civil rights.

          I am hoping they will carry out their responsibilities and do their jobs in this case, but I am not holding my breath.

          • cielo62 says:

            “Whack a Mole” is the paradigm when dealing with this institutionalized corruption. Thomas Jefferson had presumed that civil wars would pepper US history as people continually fought against corruption. There is no “final solution”. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. No use in complaining about it. We need to suit up and show up.

            Sent from my iPod

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Great post, Whonoze.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Right on, Cielo!

    • Judy75201 says:

      I would agree with you if there was any forensic evidence that Trayvon had hit GZ. There wasn’t even any evidence on GZ that he had been rolling around on the ground. I am basing my opinion on that.

      • Nefertari05 says:

        Trayvon was covered by FS 776.012 justifying all force, up to and including lethal. Had Trayvon beat Fogen to death with his bare hands, it still would have been justified, as stated by the prosecution, on the record, in open court. Second bail hearing.

    • Mirre says:

      I agree about the back of his head. The problem I have with Trayvon injuring GZ’s nose, is not that I don’t think Trayvon couldn’t have possibly tried to defend himself, but the lack of GZ blood on Trayvon.
      Stain A was the only bloodstain found from GZ on Trayvon on the bottom shirt.

      I think that must have been transferred by GZ. If GZ nose was bleeding when the close contact struggle was going on, some GZ blood smears or at least a minuscule drop of blood should have been found on Trayvon’s hoody.


      • whonoze says:

        Hi Amsterdam! Good to see another BCClister here.

        My hypothesis is that Trayvon did NOT cause GZ’s nose to bleed. Rather I think he landed a weak blow on the bridge of GZ’s nose. This caused the one small wound found on Trayvon, the cut on his ring finger. It also (again the ring probably) caused the nick on GZ’s nose. Even the Wagner photo shows no appreciable blood flow from this wound. It’s more of an abrasion than a deep cut. I do not believe the mark on the nose bridge is responsible for any of the blood on GZ and would not have transfered any blood to Trayvon. To the extent it bled at all, it probably began oozing a bit some seconds after it was opened.

        I had an accident about a week ago where I accidentally wounded the top of my scalp. I had my head down and walked right in to the liftgate of my old station wagon, which no longer opens all the way up, but only raises to about the roof level of the car. I was dazed, and it hurt like hell, but it hardly bled at all. Nothing running down my head. No blood on the liftgate. But I’ve still not a nice scab there about three times the size of that nick on GZ’s nose, which healed quickly and isn’t exactly prominent in the ‘re-enactment’ video from the next day.’

        I’ve had my nose broken in a collision in a pickup game, and I bled like a stuck pig. But that impact was not on the bridge, which is hard bone, but just a bit lower down on the septum, where the nose is a lot more vulnerable, and where a disruption will open up bleeding inside the nostrils.

      • Mirre says:

        Hi Whonoze,
        Good to see you too. I can go with your explanation. Neither the cut at the top of his nose, or the scratch at the tip would’ve caused any considerable bleeding. It could’ve been Trayvon’s ring or his elbow.
        In the photo’s taken at the police station, it looks like GZ had a long reddish discoloration on the side of his nose. It was not a scratch and it definitely doesn’t look like a fist caused it. It could’ve been the casing or recoil. The casing was found under or right next to Trayvon’s body. If the casing was ejected without being blocked in its path, I would’ve expected it at a greater distance of Trayvon’s body.

        But I agree, his nose wasn’t bleeding during the struggle.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I noticed three little dot-like pricks on the tip of George’s nose in the police station photo.

      • seallison says:

        Trayvon was wearing a watch, but no ring went into evidence.

  13. Xena says:

    GZ’s body language.

    • cielo62 says:

      Very revealing. You could almost feel the animosity he had towards Bernie.

      Sent from my iPod

      • Xena says:

        Yep. He also changed his answer to one he though BDLR wanted to hear. GZ doesn’t like being questioned. Just wait until his immunity hearing. He ain’t heard nothin’ yet.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        It is amazing to see how gz’s tone here indicates his attempt to suppress who he is.
        I cannot get over the CONTRAST of his tone here and with Hannity TO his tone in the two reenactment videos. In the videos he was still in his wanna-be-cop-and-hero mode.

    • Rachael says:

      It has always bothered me “I wanted to say I’m sorry…” Not I am sorry. It comes out sounding to me like “I wanted to say I’m sorry, but I’m not.”

      • Malisha says:

        Right. To me it can be best described as, “My lawyer told me I have to say I’m sorry but why should I be sorry when I was right to blow the punk away?”

    • Rachael says:

      I don’t think it was very “well” suppressed anger. His argumentative attitude is unreal. He comes across as VERY angry that he is being asked these questions, extremely defensive. It will be really interesting when the questions get hard.


    That comment struck a nerve with me.
    It was discussed before here:

    Is this the sort of thing that can be discussed by an expert at trial?

    Ask any person to describe a painful experience at the dentist, and their hand gestures will use the dentist’ hands own their own mouth. They wouldn’t act as the dentist on an invisible individual. FOGEN is a liar.

  15. colin black says:

    Sorry it means to tell the truth/Say what is true…My French has always been ropey

    • seallison says:

      colin – My main worry about this case and the circus it has become is whether or not a jury can be found. I am not in the State of Florida to be able to gauge if the general population has been influenced. I am anxious to hear what questions are asked of the citizens in order to find the most impartial jury.

  16. colin black says:

    seallison thank you I am aware of the voir dire prosess

    I was referring to the litteral French origin /meanig off the word in French

    Voire Dire means truth seeking/seeker of truth.. voir dire


    A preliminary examination of a witness or a juror by a judge or counsel.

    An oath taken by such a witness.


  17. Ty Flair says:

    I am willing to bet that O’mara will not have that SYG hearing for fogen,they can not afford to put him on the stand,because it would be more lies against him at trail. O’mara have one shot an one shot only,an that will be at trail. So right now they are getting him ready coaching him on what to say,how to say it,

    • cielo62 says:

      They can coach GZ til the cows come home. I think BDLR would know how to rattle him.

      Sent from my iPod

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        I think so, too, cielo.

      • jm says:

        cueki62L :They can coach GZ til the cows come home. I think BDLR would know how to rattle him.”

        Surely GZ was coached for softball questions from Hannity interview and he couldn’t even get that right.

      • Rachael says:

        I don’t think he is coachable. He has ego and impulse problems that will get in the way, no matter how much he has been coached.

        • racerrodig says:

          “I don’t think he is coachable.”

          I could not agree more. Being coachable would take an IQ higher than room temperature.

          • Xena says:

            GZ cannot be coached because GZ thinks that he knows more than O’Mara and calls the shots. I’ve assisted attorneys who had stubborn clients and no matter what they are told, they argue with the attorney. One went as far as to file an amended motion and forged the attorney’s signature on it.

          • racerrodig says:

            That’s a good one. Forging an officer of the courts name. Was his name Cheorge also ??

            I do expert witness testimony & reports and have seen the same thing as to being a know it all. Very frustrating.

          • Xena says:

            I do expert witness testimony & reports and have seen the same thing as to being a know it all. Very frustrating.

            People are strange when it comes to the courts. I think some associate the way they argue in their personal lives with what goes on in court or their experience in family court where parties mudsling and the one slinging the most mud takes the greater pleasure at humiliating the other party.

            That same mistake is what I’ve read Zidiots write.

          • racerrodig says:

            All to often they make some statement that has no proof at all and expect it will be taken as fact. Zidiots do that ?? I’m shocked !!

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena~ Also, I wonder if MOM is conducting this trial as he did in family court? I read others postulating this same thing.  In which case, BDLR will have a field day with MOM. MOM is duck hunting during deer season.


          • Xena says:

            Xena~ Also, I wonder if MOM is conducting this trial as he did in family court?

            IMO, yes, he is. Family court proceedings can bring out the worst in people, the worst lies and truths, and incorporate others in the overall warfare to win based on a battle between words. Even what is filed as uncontested divorces and custody hearings can turnout otherwise, not because the options at law change,, but because people are angry with each other and use the courtroom to humiliate and demonize each other.

            The main reason behind it is to get one party to surrender to the other out of embarrassment and humiliation.

            GZ’s case is not a civil matter. It’s criminal, and the State is not about to surrender to O’Mara’s and West’s spaghetti tactics.

        • cielo62 says:

          That’s ADHD for ya.

          Sent from my iPod

      • KA says:

        You cannot coach the uncoachable…

      • Malisha says:

        Coaching won’t work. Fogen doesn’t recognize the difference between things he says and actual, physical, material possibilities in the real world. If you see him sitting across from Erwin and demonstrating his so-called innocent shoot, if you see him standing across from Serino in the reenactment demonstrating his so-called self-defensive shoot, and if you listen to the tapes in which he narrates the encounter between a totally innocent, forgetful, bewildered watch captain and a reckless murderous punk, you realize that Fogen cannot even TRY to conform his imagination to the boundaries set by the laws of physics, much less the laws of the State of Florida. If you think you could coach a sow’s ear into a silk purse, you might be closer to success than coaching Fogen into a person smart enough and cagey enough to iron out the problems his actions and lies have caused. In fact, had he immediately told the cops, “I shot him because I got way too riled up about him sassing me when I questioned him,” he would be in a better situation now, legally. Because police could easily believe that a 17-year-old Black teen-ager on suspension from school in Miami Gardens would diss a guy like Fogen than to believe the utter nonsense — and the obnoxious, victim-blaming, accusatory and transparently dishonest nonsense — that he has been spouting ever since he pulled the trigger.

      • Malisha says:

        And he pulled the trigger in anger. ANGER is the key.

    • Dennis says:

      I agree. O’Mara has publicly stated that this is a case of classic Self-Defense and not SYG. Not too many people have won their immunity hearings in Florida so I don’t think he will try it considering how much evidence is weighing against his client. Voldemort can’t testify at either the hearing or at his trial, otherwise he is even more screwed. O’Mara is hoping to taint the jury and praying that the prosecution can’t prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. It is possible that O’Mara might withdraw as council due to the fact that the blood money slush fund has run dry and his client is being sued for not paying his debts to the security firm. I don’t see how he will ever receive any money from representing his client. It is almost impossible for him to win the case as well so he should just back out before he ruins his reputation even more than he already has.

      • Xena says:

        Voldemort can’t testify at either the hearing or at his trial, otherwise he is even more screwed.

        @Dennis, I was just thinking when have we ever heard of a case where the defense attorney gets so involved in his client’s personal life? O’Mara assigned himself to be GZ’s guardian, making arrangements of how he was to live once making bail. Now he is named as a defendant in a lawsuit because of his involvement.

        GZ’s claim is self-defense. While no defendant has to testify at trial, the self-defense claim almost makes it mandatory because only the defendant can describe why he/she had reasonable fear causing them to use deadly force.

        O’Mara and West are between a rock and a hard place. It’s too bad that GZ has deceived his own legal team and drawn them into his toxic web.

  18. colin black says:

    Xena…………Thirdly GZ would have had a lot more blood on him had he simply “dipped” his nose, hands or face into Trayvon´s wounds

    Youve probably adressed this an Ive missed it.But given your hypothasis an also others in S P D early arrivalls Smith ect ,Perhaps being complicant in so much gz trusted them to tell he had spruced up his injurys with the dead kids blood.

    Lets face facts he stole Trayvons LIFE..He stole Trayvons last desprate screams for mercy…Why not steal his blood .Par for the cource with this deviant tool.

    Im not saying its what happened just that I wouldnt put it past him an some raceist mebers of S P D.

    An perchance this crazy conspircy theory did come to pass.Wouldnt it be 100 percent neccesery that the murderer would be allowed to slip of to the bathroom to freshen up.

    An destroying any blood evidence testing on the blood on his face.

    None was done that I saw in disscovery though may have missed it.As if that blood from the back of the head I thought resembled an octopuss.But your right it also looks like finfer trails.

    Tottaly unsmuged impossable if he had been getting his head smashed.

    No smugeing on front either despite the smothering..So if that blood had been tested an found to be Trayvon Martins we could well be disscusing a Capital murder an possable death sentance…NO?

    • Xena says:

      Lets face facts he stole Trayvons LIFE..He stole Trayvons last desprate screams for mercy…Why not steal his blood .Par for the cource with this deviant tool.

      That’s right. Then, he stole money from supporters, using it for purposes other than why he requested it.

  19. Aunt Bea says:

    By far, to me, the best Hannity softball question was:

    “Why was he telling you “shut-up”?”

    GZ’s response: “I don’t know”.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      Yes, Aunt Bea.
      Of course, I think George might have wanted to keep Trayvon quiet when Witness 6 came out on his porch. I wish the forensics people had checked Trayvon’s mouth for gz’s DNA from gz’s hand.

    • Yes, that was a hilarious response from the man who claimed to be screaming for help.

    • jm says:

      Aunt Bea: “By far, to me, the best Hannity softball question was: “Why was he telling you shut-up?”

      GZ’s response: “I don’t know”.

      Love it. What a dumbazz.. My question is does Hannity still “support” GZ? .

    • racerrodig says:

      At trial don’t be shocked if it becomes “….shut up cracker…”

      • Malisha says:

        It will be “Shut the phuck up cracker homie mufukker” and then we will have good old Mentor-Fogen saying: “Say PLEASE.” (Can’t help himself)

        • racerrodig says:

          For sure, we know he will add some more to every aspect of his fairy tale. The problem is how far in bizarre will he go. I’m still a bit shocked he never said Trayvon tried to shoot him and the gun went off as a result of Trayvon pulling the trigger, however….the trial is still 6 months away so anything is possible.

          • cielo62 says:

            I’m also surprised he didn’t blame Martin for shooting himself! BUT since the evidence dumps have been released and no Martin DNA was found on the gun at all, that’s one storyline he just won’t be able to use.


          • racerrodig says:

            “…that’s one storyline he just won’t be able to use. ” That’s what common sense tells us. But this is Fogen and I wouldn’t bet on against anything.

    • Malisha says:

      The pas de deux done by Hannity and Fogen was just plain transparently dumb. It consisted of Hannity asking Fogen a leading exculpatory question (often containing a suggestion of blame for people who believed wrongly that Fogen did a bad thing) followed by Fogen telling Hannity what Trayvon thought, how Trayvon felt, and what Trayvon did. But when the question asked anything about what FOGEN himself did, the answer comes down to, “yessir” or “nossir” or “I don’t know” or “??? It was God’s plan.” Then there was a little interlude when Fogen got to make a prepared speechling stringing a few platitudes together and producing a “this is me being sincere” nanosecond-long unsmirk.

  20. colin black says:

    Judy …Ive heard to dates June 10th an June 23rd

    June 10th will be the start off selecting an impatial Jury pool in a procsess voi dire French for something or other.Might be truth seeking..And there hopeing to compleat this prosess .So a Jury can be seated an Trial can commence on June 23rd.

    Jury selection is vital to both sides.Defence an Prosecution

    But in all honesty it is beyond boreing to the genral public.Thats assumeing the m s m even broadcasts proceedings.

    So the real deal kicks of on 23rd june all things running smoothly wich they very rarely seem to do with this strange deffendant……

    • seallison says:

      voir dire


      A preliminary examination of a witness or a juror by a judge or counsel.

      An oath taken by such a witness.

  21. Judy75201 says:

    I don’t recall who pointed it out, but there really was no indication of blood actually flowing from GZ’s nose. They forgot to fake that part. I can’t wait for June 10.

    • Aunt Bea says:

      Also, the nick on the bridge of his nose looks “older”. I would expect it to have active bleeding at that point in time. At least a trickle.

    • seallison says:

      Look at the inside of the nostrils — clean!

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Pictures from recent court appearance show a remnant mark (burn scar? scrape scar?) on defendant’s nose. Mark from hot shell casing? Flashlight tossed into his face? Whatever the origin, a darker mark remains.

  22. Xena says:

    Well, here we go. A woman impersonated the aunt of the Sandy Hook victim that was shot 11 times in order to raise donations. The FBI caught her, and she has been charged.

    • truthforlisa says:

      I’m glad she was caught. Nobody should be subjected to this kind of fraud, ever, much less after a tragedy of this proportion.

  23. Cercando Luce says:

    “It wasn’t my gun, it wasn’t THE gun, it was Shellie’s gun!”

  24. Hi everyone, it is nasty weather we are having in Ohio. 😦 Snow, snow go away, I have lot’s of things to do today. 🙂
    What has always bothered me about the reenactment?, is the fact that not one of the detectives, looked at any part of the sidewalk, close to the “T”, to see if they saw any blood. Not one of them. It was daytime, and if there was any head bashing, slamming, or hitting, there should have been some evidence of it. Also, there should have been some evidence in the grass, that would have shown a struggle, especially since it had rained the night before, There should have been some indentations in the grass, and evidence of the shimmy, and squirming, ………yet there was none. Even watching it on you tube, there was nothing, nada, zip, and nein. “fogen” is through.
    AKA, Japanese Girlsan. 🙂

  25. colin black says:

    SearchingMind says:

    December 29, 2012 at 2:19 pm

    The Hannity-interview poses definitely a HANNITY obstacle for Fogen on his way to an ever illusory freedom. BDLR called that interview “God-sent”. That’s an extraordinary description. I invite you guys to figure out why. What does BDLR see that we are not seeing? Below is my take on the ‘God-sent-comment’.

    HANNITY: “(…) . At what moment did you — because you said you feared for your life. At what moment do you remember when you literally — do you remember when you thought, “I may die”? Is that — because you said that you felt — you feared for your life. Do you remember the exact moment when you felt that?”

    Fogen: “In hindsight, I would say when he was slamming my head into the concrete, and I thought I would lose consciousness. I didn’t know what would happen at that point”.

    My remarks:

    Pls. mark the words: “IN HINDSIGHT”. Essentially, Fogen is stating that he became aware of the moment he feared for his life ”in hindsight”?! In other words, moments before- and during the murder of Trayvon Fogen was not aware of any danger to his life? That crucial moment occurred to Fogen ”in hindsight”! That, ladies and gentlemen, is “God-sent” – aka BDLR.


    HANNITY: “Do you remember when you yourself reached for your weapon? Do you remember that moment”.
    Fogen: “Yes, sir”.

    HANNITY: “Tell us about that”.

    Fogen: “At that point, I realized that it wasn’t my gun, it wasn’t his gun, it was the gun”.

    HANNITY: “Did he say anything? Because you said he was talking a lot about the gun. Did he say he noticed the gun?”

    Fogen: “He said, “You are going to die tonight (EXPLETIVE DELETED)” and took one hand off of my mouth and I felt it going down my chest towards my belt and my holster, and that’s when I — I didn’t have anymore time.”

    HANNITY: “Do you think you acted more out of a conscious thought? I mean, I know these events happen very quickly. Do you remember conscientiously thinking I have to grab my gun or did you just do it? Was there a conscious thought that went through your head that you thought you were going to die and that you had to take this — you had to get your weapon and fire?”

    Fogen: “I’d love to give you an answer”.

    HANNITY: “You don’t know?”

    Fogen: “It just happened so quickly”.

    My remarks:
    Fogen is saying that no thoughts whatsoever went through his mind regarding whether or not he was in a life threatening situation, whether or not he was he was going to die, the need to grab is his gun, the need to shoot Trayvon in self-defense, etc. Fogen just doesn’t know why he pulled the trigger and murdered Trayvon, etc. Again, that, ladies and gentlemen, is “God-sent” – aka BDLR.


    It is indeed a gift for the State to use against him.All his talk of Trayvon seeing the gun an reaching for it whilst sat on top of gz slammin his head an smothering him.

    Take a hand of his mouth eaching down his body to grab this suddenly owneless self entity gun

    It was rhe gun an Trayvon was reaching to make it his gun even informing his victim of his intentions …Your going to die tonight MOFUKKA…

    An yet as LMPappa so beutifully an logicaly showed in a recent video A shot to the heart must cause short term amnessia.Because the defendant tells us after he shot one time centr chest

    An he wasnt even sure he had hit him…..Trayvon sat up???…Considering youve just been telling us how he was on top of you pounding you pinning you down with all his weight pressing his hands over nose an mouth.How could he sit up .He then goes an demonstrates how Trayvon was crouched over him on top gz beneith at the instant he shot him.Couple of sentances after saying he had sat up;How does one sit up whilst already in an upright position.Anyway thats minor compared to what he says next to end the reconstruction an interveiw.

    Explaining he wasnt sure he had hit him .And Trayvon sat up an said You got it you got me or something…I thought he was saying OK I know you have a GUN NOW I heard it Im giveing up..So what happened to the desprate struggle for ypur peice an your gonna die to nigh expleative?An at that The Detectives asked anymore questions

    An the answer was no Serrino probably thought Ive got you hook line an sinker you contradicting sum o a beach…………….2ND degreee murder.

  26. Dennis says:

    I thought I would share a quote from Devil’s Advocate.

    “Juries want honesty.” Keanu Reeves

    Voldemort has been nothing but dishonest and therefore the jury is going to crucify him.

  27. Judy75201 says:

    I don’t think Fogen had a single injury that was inflicted by Trayvon, and I think the back-of-the head injuries were either self-inflicted or “friendly fire”–possibly from the butt of his gun.

  28. Dashamimi says:

    I went back and watched the first bond hearing again and so many things make sense and the puzzle is piecing together nicely. O’mara spent so much time on the verbiage of the affidavit with the words “profiled” and “confronted”….which now proves he has a huge battle to fight.

    Also the the lying by shelLie and papa z did on the phone call is sickening. ShelLie stated she felt her life was in danger because she has received hate mail…but no threats and never communicated her fear to the police. `

    papa z was asked about the violence of his son and whether he thought his son was a violent person, papa z said no that his son is not violent unless he was provoked and then he would turn the other cheek …then Bernie said you are aware that your son is charged with Murder 2 . Bernie is a smooth prosecutor….I like his style!

    Also papa z said he saw his son at his house the next day although zman said he never went back to his home again after that night he murdered Trayvon (Hannity).

    Also does anyone know what gladys said when O’mara asked her does she know where zman stay? O’mara stated “I didn’t want to hear that”.

    • Xena says:

      Also the the lying by shelLie and papa z did on the phone call is sickening. ShelLie stated she felt her life was in danger because she has received hate mail…

      Like letters to Santa Claus, addressed to “Shellie Zimmerman, Someone in the USA.” All that talk about living in hiding and yet people have their address and phone numbers to issue threats? I don’t think so.

      • racerrodig says:

        Like this threat to her, “I know where you are and I know what you’re doing……and I know you’re low on toilet paper” Consider yourself threatened.

        • Xena says:

          Like this threat to her, “I know where you are and I know what you’re doing……and I know you’re low on toilet paper” Consider yourself threatened.

          LOL@racerrodig. Maybe the threats come from each other — ya know, just so it won’t be a lie in their minds.

          • racerrodig says:

            That certainly is a possibility. Maybe they can provide proof of internet threats and the IP address is from LetJusticePrevail.

            That would be a hoot !!

            Oh and Fogen….I know what you’re doing…’ve been warned.

      • Malisha says:

        I believe most, if not all, of the threats (if there were threats) were: “You’re gonna be convicted of murder.” Since Junior considers it illegal that his brother was even CHARGED with murder, and since O’Mara seems to think that same belief, on Fogen’s part, is extremely important to the case, it is not a far leap to conclude that they regard the Murder-2 charge as a threat and they are, once again, interpreting the real world in a way that is peculiar to their own mental and emotional distortions.

        One of the strangest disconnects in this case is the comparison of the three violent episodes in Fogen’s life that resulted in legal action.

        1. He assaults a law enforcement officer. His reason? He did not know who the law enforcement officer WAS. Thus, his assault was based upon HIS belief that the assault would be perfectly all right unless the law enforcement officer stopped everything and turned his attention to explaining himself to Fogen. Without shame or embarrassment, Fogen’s version of the events (adopted by his mother as well) is, “Well if I choose to attack someone and they don’t tell me there’s a good reason for me to NOT attack them, it’s on THEM.”

        2. He assaults his fiancee. His reason? The day AFTER she asks for legal protection from his repeating his violent behavior, he goes in with a request to be protected from HER, claiming “She Started It.”

        If you put the rationale together (they’re on record; they do not have to be figured out or guessed about) from these two prior incidents, here’s what you get:

        FOGEN’S PHILOSOPHY (which leads to action): If I don’t know who someone is, and if they don’t give me a good explanation for why they’re doing what they are doing at any given moment, I have a right to attack them. Also, if someone claims I attacked them, my response is that they attacked ME. I was the victim.

        Isn’t this philosophy, gleaned from his 2005 troubles with the law, exactly what pops up in the picture of the killing of Trayvon Martin?

        He was suspicious. He hit me first. I had to kill him.

  29. Ezz-Thetic says:

    He’ll never be able to explain the distance between the T and where Trayvon’s body was found. He might as well confess.

    • Xena says:

      @Ezz-Thetic. GZ will use selective memory lapse as his explanation.

    • Puck says:

      In the re-enactment, GZ is at the T and looks out to where the shooting atually occurred, paused (because he was making it all up) and then came up with “I think I was trying to push him away from me?” (question mark here indicates his speech pattern that indicates he’s lying, not to mention the “I think” – it happened the night before!); then he does some kind of fly-swatting thing while twirling down the path. He has to account for how the altercation moved 50 feet down the path, and he does so very pathetically. (And then there’s one version of the story where TM’s alleged punch knocks GZ down to the ground at the T… that version didn’t last long because it wouldn’t even account for the fly-swatting slapsie-fight thing.)

      • Rachael says:

        That whole fly-swatting thing never made any sense to me. That is one of his more stupid stories.

        • Xena says:

          That whole fly-swatting thing never made any sense to me. That is one of his more stupid stories.

          It was his mind association with how he came into contact with Trayvon — pushing the bushes between the houses aside to get through them. Think of the level he demonstrated. It would have to be a 3 ft person.

      • Malisha says:

        The fly-swatting action looks so babyish. “I think I tried to push him off me…” “I stumbled” — whereas the day before, with the events fresh in his mind, we had “No ma’am, I fell down when he punched me the first time.”

        And what is behind Door Number Three?

        “I dunno — some other thuggy thing. I’m a decent American.”

      • Jun says:

        the tiger swipes kind of make me laugh because he then realizes he has to try to make it down the back path and you can see him staring down the back path and try to make it there with his story

        he did not want to state it happened down the back pathway because he knew he was not supposed to pursue the kid

    • racerrodig says:

      “….um, I didn’t know if I had hit him, I guess he skipped 46 feet than realized my bullet hit him and he fell down”

      Bizarre as that is, it’s coming….it’s only a matter of time.

      • cielo62 says:

        Happens with cartoons alla time.

        Sent from my iPod

      • Malisha says:

        If you think of it, in Fogen’s story (all versions), Trayvon decided to attack him and that decision had to be made at some point when or after Trayvon went “skipping away” and Fogen said, to Sean at NEN: “Shit, he’s running.” Admittedly, he did not get OUT of his schtruck until after that exclamation incorrectly describing the skipping as “running.” So then, he tells Erwin, he walked over to the other side of the U-shaped street to get an address, and on his way there, he “looked” down the walkway where he had seen Trayvon go skipping. (Then Fogen describes going to the address-location-place and returning to the T as he was headed back to wait for the officer, having agreed not to follow Trayvon.)

        So. Hold that image for a minute.

        Trayvon’s skipped down to the T and turned right to hide and await Fogen so he can kill him. Fogen then passes by! Wow, wonderful! The perfect moment to run out from his hiding place and quickly kill the innocent dupe and then disappear again. Just give him 3 seconds to pass by, headed away, and then —

        So if that had been Trayvon’s plan, Fogen would not have made it to the place where he could get an address; he would have been killed shortly after he passed the T.

        • racerrodig says:

          No matter what, the time line is such a problem and it cannot be explained away. I keep having this image of his reenactment where he is swatting at the flies during the slap fight. The prosecution needs to run that over and over at his trial.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I know that “sorry for your loss” doesn’t even begin to cover it, I just lost a good friend a month and a half ago and I still remember family members I lost, so I know how deep that runs, it’s simply indescribable. So you have my compassion.

            GZ, poor thing, has cut off every avenue of defense MOM might try. No matter which way he turns there a huge pile of terrible, flaming debris blocking the way. He dare not even call GZ an “honorable citizen” for example, or the door to the bail hearing flies wide open and BDLR drives an M11 tank through at full blast with all weapons firing. MOM is going to have a devil of a time, trying to prove those wounds did not happen before GZ and TM met. Fresh wounds, less than 2.5 minutes old, simply do not look like that, most especially not if the head has been hit on wet concrete and then rubbed in wet grass, for approximately half of that time.

            Do those wounds look like they’re about 75 seconds old to anyone here? I doubt the jury will think that they are. An expert witness will be able to tell the jury what 75 second old wounds should look like, perhaps even give a demo. GZ is toast!

          • racerrodig says:

            A sincere thank you from my family.

            Burnt Toast at that he is.

    • SearchingMind says:

      @ Exx-Thetic

      “He’ll never be able to explain the distance between the T and where Trayvon’s body was found. He might as well confess.”

      That’s right. And he will never be able to explain the distance between the ‘sidewalk’ (from where he “shimmied” just inches away) and where the shell casing was found (i.e. where Trayvon was shot).

  30. I just thought of something after looking at the two juxtaposed photos of GZ the night of the killing. If the pic from the squad car shows where his blood actually was, none of it originated from inside his nostrils. The latter photo shows scratches on the exterior og GZ’s nose, exactly there the blood clot rests in the squad pic. this could have occurred from the kickback of the gun or at least from scraping his nose on anything. actually, this is the kind of scrape (to a larger extent) he should have had on his head. Nothing shows blood flowing from INSIDE his nose at all. Interesting!

    • bettykath says:

      If you have a nose bleed and bend over, as we know he did due to the back of the head runs, the blood from the nose will collect on the tip of nose and drip from there. It may be that one drop of blood on Trayvon’s clothes was a drip from the defendant’s nose.

      • Rachael says:

        Good point!

      • Mirre says:

        The one GZ blood smear on Trayvon was found near the front hem of his bottom shirt.

        I think that is more likely a blood smear transferred from GZ’s hand.
        No GZ blood on Trayvon’s hoody. GZ was leaning over Trayvon for about 40 seconds. No blood on Trayvon’s back.

        GZ had quite a lot of small bloodstains on the front of his shirt, that is what you expect with even minor bleeding of the nose. I think it is highly unlikely they were struggling while GZ was bleeding from his nose.

        The problem I have with the blood on the tip his nose, is that the photo was taken at 7:31 pm. That was 13 minutes after GZ got up from his bend over position. By that time that blood should’ve made its way downward.

      • Malisha says:

        Since the cops let Fogen wash up before collecting evidence from his hands and the rest of him, we don’t know anything about what was on his hands after killing Trayvon Martin.

        Another thing about the cops trying to avoid evidence collection and about the cops having an agreement with Fogen ON THE SCENE or shortly before he arrived at the station house, not to prosecute him for anything: If he was in such horrible banged up condition, the cops would have naturally insisted upon taking him to the hospital, even if he did not agree, so that at the very least, his injuries could be substantiated as having resulted from the altercation and not from police brutality. Think of it. What if Fogen confessed to premeditated murder at 10:02 p.m. on 2/26/2012 and was locked up. And then an assigned attorney made a motion to throw out the confession because the cops had beaten him to a bloody pulp and in fact he was beaten within an inch of his life (if that is what the photographs actually DO PROVE!) to force a confession out of him.

        Just imagine — there the cops stand without any evidence that they did not do that beating themselves. There they stand without a way to prove that he should not only go free but in addition, that he can sue the department for brutality and take a clean million off them for their outrageous behavior.

        NO indeed. Before Fogen arrived at the station and cleaned up on his own in the bathroom, the deal had been cut. “You say it was self-defense and we’ll say we have no evidence it was not self-defense and you walk and everybody’s happy.” It was cut before Serino even met Fogen.

    • gbrbsb says:

      @DOASL. There is no way whatsoever that you can say with certainty from Smith´s photo from where the blood originates except that from the nostrils it is the most logical which as BettyKath notes and as shown in a video of a chap with a nose bleed that a blogger posted in one of the threads relevant to the pics of GZ´s injuries, if you lean forward from on top, which after all is exactly what we are mainly arguing GZ did, the blood from the nose will tend to collect on the tip of his nose.

      • blushedbrown says:

        I was the one who posted the video on or about Oct 29th while we were discussing photos. Here is the link for your files 🙂

        graphic images….also he does some nasty stuff….

      • blushedbrown says:

        Sorry gbrbsb date wrong 12/18/2012 here was my thoughts on that particular subject.


        This is the so far the best video to depict two things regarding photo
        of GZ in back of the LE vehicle.

        1) The drip of blood at the tip of GZ nose.

        2) The blood on GZ lips.

        This video made me think of a couple of things.

        The drip on his nose, is from leaning forward.

        The blood on his lips should of been wiped from licking his lips.

        Witness 13 took 3 photos: Back of GZ head, tactical flashlight, Trayvon’s dead body. He did not take
        a frontal shot of his face. Considering that this was according to GZ, the first punch thrown by Trayvon, this
        would of been the most significant picture he would of wanted taken right then and there.

        I have a couple of thoughts on this:

        At the time these pictures were taken @ 7:19, I believe GZ did not want a frontal view of his face taken. He knew people heard and saw things already. He just didn’t know what. We all know his propensity to lie and take what other people know and use it to his advantage.

        I believe that when he was holding Trayvon down, he had the gun close to his face. Taking into considertion the Medical Examiner’s Report of the Gun Shot wound, there would of been little space between them. He would of pointed the gun high near his face, with his knees on either side of Trayvon.
        He was doing two things simultaneously, hold Trayvon’s sweatshirt down with his dominant hand (left), while making
        sure he didn’t hit his hand and aim for the kill shot, through his heart.

        Also, from countless internet searches, this gun is cheaply made that has alot of recoil. Another point to consider is that he used his non-dominant hand which is the right hand with a one hand grip. Most internet searches show a reasonable amount of recoil with people using both hands on that gun. Imagine with only one hand. The nick and nose bleed, I believe, was caused by this action.

        Comparing the video of the young man bleeding from his nose he is leaning forward, hence the drip at the tip of his nose. If he was on his back, like he claims, the picture taken should of shown blood from his nose going towards his hairline or and towards his cheekbones.

        This young man in the video had a fight and his nose was bleeding badly.

        I did note something that the young man did, that GZ didn’t do and that was he licked his lips. One would think this would be a “normal reaction” by someone. But then again that’s why we believe someone enhance that on the photo. Also in his video the blood seems to be coming mainly from one nostril. No apparent swelling.

        GZ had to be leaning forward over Trayvon for that one drop of blood to land on his clothing.


        The recoil hits him in the nose. He checks Trayvon for a weapon, finds none, while he is doing that a single drop of GZ blood falls
        on Trayvon’s sweatshirt.

        IIRC that was the only blood of GZ found on Trayvon. No other DNA of GZ was found on Trayvon, this is supported by DNA reports. One drop of blood of GZ was found on Trayvon.

        If we are to believe that Trayvon punched GZ at the on set of the fight. GZ would of been leaking all over the place.
        Blood would of been all over Trayvon. That is not the case. Just looking at the video shows how much blood leaks from a
        bloody nose.

        The only reasoning I can come up with, is that the nose injury occured AFTER the gunshot.

        Immediately after the shooting, he doesn’t know if this witness saw the gun hit him. So he only let’s him take a back of head photo.
        Because GZ knows that Witness 6 (John) will back him up, he saw him on the ground for a second or two.
        He doesn’t know what this other guy saw.
        What does GZ do? He starts a conversation with him to find out how much he knows. “Man this guy was beating me up, so I had to shoot him?”
        GZ wants to know how much this guy saw. He doesn’t tell this guy “OMG, I just shot someone”, or he doesn’t say “Hey call an ambulance!”
        He is already thinking about how to gather up his story to make it work to his advantage.

        Then comes the police. He’s handcuffed, and sitting in the back of a police car. Plenty of time to come up with some bullcaca.

        @7:19 photo taken of back of head by bystander.
        @7:25 photo taken by LEO Michael Wagner
        @7:40 emt start cleaning him up. (No mention of how he got the bloody nose)(Report EMT caused by some blunt object)
        @7:52 arrives at cop shop
        @11:21 CSI tech D Smith takes admitted killer pics of hands face hands etc.

        EMT O’Rourke testified at the Bond Hearing that he was NOT BLEEDING when he started care.
        EMT O’Rourke also testified that he cleaned him up and applied ice packs.

        Between the time the Wagner Photo is taken and the Emt arrives is about 15 minutes.

        I don’t know how long the drive is from The Retreat to the Police sation. But considering that they arrived 12 minutes after clean up. The clean up must of not been that long or the drive was not that long. Someone else can figure that out, if they like.

        Apparently this so called broken nose starting healing thyself. By the time CSI tech takes the pictures at the station @ 11:21, there is no misalignment of the nose. No blood gushing out. No swelling. Hell there is not even a Kleenex stuck in
        his nose.

        Also noted that he refused transport to Hospital, Why? They have X-Ray machines!
        Refused transport again at cop shop 3 times. Why? They have real doctors, not EMT’s. No offense to EMT’s.
        Refused Ear Nose Throat, recommended by his own PA. Why? More of the same.

        So in conclusion I hope they do enter the photos into evidence.

        Bernie DL Rionda can paint a better picture then what I did, in regards to those particluar photos.

        PS I will post some recoil videos. I can only post one link at a time, because the comment gets caught in moderation.

  31. blushedbrown says:


    Question, could you please look into how much it would cost to obatin a copy of lawsuit pending from Security Team. If it’s not too much I will more then happy to pay for it and post it. If not, I guess we can wait for the first media outlet to release it. Need something to read.

    • Jun says:

      I dont know if it will work


      Why not try asking the company AIS mano y mano?

      Go str8 to the source

    • Xena says:

      @blushedbrown. Since I do not reside in Florida, it might cost more for them to submit it to me than a resident. Axiomamnesia is approved to receive court documents but they have to pay for them. If payment in advanced if offered, they can probably get them much sooner.

      • bgesq says:

        @Ms. Xena: the case can be found online at:

        The complaint isn’s published there, but the case name (compant is CMA; county is Orange-not seminole, and the lawyer for tthe 3 defendants iss Lorna Truett- the female attorney who assists MOM in court0- she works at his firm asa crim/fam lawyer) the real docket number is: Case No. 2012-CA-020556-O
        I believe eventually docs will be published online pursuant to florida sunshine laws

        • Xena says:

          I believe eventually docs will be published online pursuant to florida sunshine laws

          Thanks for the info. What we want to see is the filed complaint. The docket only provides for the titles of papers filed and scheduling. If it was filed in a federal court, I could get the documents.

      • blushedbrown says:

        Thanks Xena.

  32. Wait till BDLR asks him about “gods plan” and see what his reaction is 🙂

  33. Personally I believe fogen got wacked in the nose by the recoil of his weapon.

    The reviews of the Kel Tec PF9 aren’t very good, up to and including that due to it’s recoil it is uncomfortable to shoot for target practice.

    Will fogen make it to the trial and then lose it?
    If he does go to trial? I can’t imagine him not losing it, and I would expect to hear a lot of “I object” from Mom.

    Again….my personal beliefs only.

    When fogen sees that his ass is history, he’ll either run….or take himself out.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I can see him quietly pissed, as he’s sometimes been in his appearances, yes ma’aming and yes-sirring as he always does, but it’s hard to imagine him making a big fuss at this point. But maybe we’ll get lucky and he’ll pitch one of those fits he seems to have done in his past.

    • jm says:

      “Will fogen make it to the trial and then lose it?”

      Unless he testifies I can’t see GZ losing it in the condition he has been in at the last 2 hearings where he seemed heavily drugged. BDLR said some pretty harsh/sarcastic things about the defendant and GZ seemed like it didn’t bother him.

      • He’s living in his own delusional world.

      • Xena says:

        It bothered him, Jm, because he began writing notes that West passed to O’Mara, and that is when O’Mara began to argue the poor me diatribe about GZ losing his job and his wife not working and being afraid, and it’s all the fault of protesters that he was arrested and he has to live in a safe house, etc.

        GZ wants to circumvent Judge Lester’s orders by convincing Judge Nelson to a personal interest in how he lives free on bail.

        When you see him tilt his head up and stick out his chin, that is body language of anger. He did it during cross-examination at the first bond hearing, and he did it as ShelLIE was being crossed about the money. Anyone who has dealt with him knows that after they see that body language, unless they submit to him, he explodes.

        Mark my words — O’Mara knows that too, which is why he is going in all sorts of directions in effort to avoid the immunity hearing where GZ will have to take the stand and testify.

      • Jun says:

        LOL I noticed that he had a pouty tantrum angry face on him

        You noticed how when he was getting Omara to try and claim innocence and Fogenhats was mean mugging the judge…

        as soon as Bernie stepped on and mentioned the scheming and lying to the court, that there was probable cause and many officers reached the same conclusion for the murder charge, and that it was beyond a shadow of a doubt he killed a kid and his story is a crock, Fogenhats quickly stared angrily down at the table writing on a piece of paper

      • Malisha says:

        I predict O’Mara will ask for more time based on the “fact” that Fogen has PTSD and therefore cannot cooperate with his defense at trial; needs medication and rest and R&R and protection and coddling to get over his PTSD because the Bad PBhlacks have been so mean to him.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Jun, he sits there mean mugging the judge quite a lot as well as his own attorney. and, it seems to me that MOM medicates him right before he enters the court room. if you will notice, he doesn’t look that way when he is walking into the court house itself. MOM is a dirty little thing, looking like Rasputin. this man has aged 10 years or more since taking this case. good for him!

  34. Jun says:

    Odd thing that I noticed from Lonnie

    Although I feel the bloody nose photo is altered, let us just say it is real…

    The blood was crusted, undisturbed off the tip of his nose and the bleeding stopped exactly at the bottom lip

    Considering that it was drying already in a huge glob hanging off the tip of his nose… how did it happen?

    Normally a bloody nose you bleed through the nostrils and it gets in your mouth and onto your clothes and shirt, and the defendant’s just crusted in a huge glob off the tip of his nose

    And the bleeding pattern from the back of the had… it flowed undisturbed and then dried…

    That is not consistent with bleeding while struggling as it looks like he bled with his head straight, then he bent his head forward at a 45 degree angle and turned his head slightly to his right and held it like that as it bled and dried up…

    very odd

    • Have you considered that he may have rubbed his face in Trayvon’s bleeding wound to get blood on his face?

      • Jun says:

        It is a theory i considered because it appears that way. The only way to conclude it is if the EMT had kept the rags to wipe the blood off of Fogen, and then they can DNA test it and say with certainty as to that theory’s conclusiveness

      • Two sides to a story says:

        But wouldn’t the DNA of the blood on his nose have been tested? Or was it assumed that any blood on GZs boo-boos was his own? Sorry, don’t have time to go look at the evidence dump.

      • Jun says:

        I do not know if they kept the rags from the wipings off Fogenhats

        If I was the detective, I would have got the EMT to bag them in the evidence bags for me and then sign off on them to witness the evidence being handed over

        I would have also made Fogen go see a doctor and then hold Fogen for the amount of time police are allowed to hold a suspect…

        I do not know if they did that

      • The blood was definitely not from a bloody nose, not like the kind you’d get when punched in the face. It was from that itty bitty scratch he had on the end of his nose, probably from running into a tree.

      • Dave says:

        My first reaction was along the lines of what Prof. Leatherman wrote above. “OMG! It looks like he was sucking the blood straight out of the poor kid’s chest!”

      • gbrbsb says:

        I can´t see how professor. IIRC, Trayvon´s autopsy shows very little external bleeding whether body, hoodie or T shirt. Further, to soak up enough blood to form a large droplet or globule as in the photo he would have covered the whole tip of his nose not just underneath and part of his chops, and I don´t think he would have dared as would have to presume they would take samples unless we carry the theory as far as that SPD knew he was going to kill a black teen that night.

        On the other hand, in one of the threads about the injury pics a poster uploaded a video of a teen with a copiously bleeding nose (not pleasant to watch but informative none the less) and what struck me was while the boy is walking and moving around and bending forward to look in the mirror the blood is forming a large droplet underneath the tip of his nose much the same as appears in GZ´s pic.

        In respect of the blood congealed in, around and on top of GZ´s tache IMO the tache forms a barrier where it collects & congeals while any overspill is redirected to the side, like a river bank. Add to that the scuffle during which they were likely alternating from being on top and underneath it flows especially to one side, GZ´s right.

      • Jun says:

        What I find strange is how it crusted so fast, hanging off the tip of his nose, and none appearing to come out either nostril

        It takes time for blood to dry and in such a huge globlet and to simply hang off the tip so large and not make it past his lip is very suspect

      • Aunt Bea says:

        Professor, please.
        Not with all the blood borne diseases around.
        Now, someone’s blood who he knew was clean, maybe.

        • Xena says:

          Not with all the blood borne diseases around.

          Your comment caused me to think of a question some have been asking;i.e., why hasn’t ShelLIE had a baby?

          • jm says:

            Xena: Your comment caused me to think of a question some have been asking;i.e., why hasn’t ShelLIE had a baby?


            I don’t even want to imagine these 2 idiots passing on their genetics.

          • Xena says:


            I don’t even want to imagine these 2 idiots passing on their genetics.

            Yep, not to mention their possible blood diseases to an innocent infant.

      • Rachael says:

        @ Xena:

        “Your comment caused me to think of a question some have been asking;i.e., why hasn’t ShelLIE had a baby?”

        I’ve heard 2 different things. One is that she is not able to have kids and that had something to do with why they were not married in a Catholic church.

        The other was what he supposedly told his ex he cheated on She’lLie with – and that was that She’lLie did not want one, but of course, that could have just been one of his “stories” to get someone to do what he wanted them to do with him.

        I’m not saying either of these are true, I’m just passing on stuff I’ve heard.

        Regardless though, I think for the sake of humanity, it is wonderful that they have not and hopefully will not.

        • Xena says:

          Regardless though, I think for the sake of humanity, it is wonderful that they have not and hopefully will not.

          Oh, but mama Zim is so helpful, she would want to raise the child for the next 5 yrs until ShelLIE is out of prison. (snicker)

    • kenteoth says:

      It’s very consistent with all of the LIES he has told since he committed this heinous act against an innocent child…..

      • Jun says:

        Another curious question is him asking someone

        if it is bleeding?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Jun, especially in context of Fogen later saying he couldn’t see because he had “blood in his eyes” – LOL.

      • Jun says:

        LOL I dont see how it could make it to his eyes considering it was in a huge crust ball hanging off the tip of his nose

      • seallison says:

        Before the photos came out and Junior was doing the media tour on the west coast, he actually told the interviewer that his brother was beaten so badly that blood was coming out his ears!

        • racerrodig says:

          Yep, and when will we see the pictures with those bloody eyes ??

          Oh, wait, he meant bloodshot eyes from the lack of sleep caused by the fear and threats. And the nagging by SheLie.

      • truthforlisa says:

        I’m still waiting to see a pic of him with black eyes. Still haven’t seen one, even though the dr diagnosed him with black eyes.

        • racerrodig says:

          Black eyes, or bloody eyes. Just like every aspect you must specify what you really mean. He said his eyes were full of blood as did Jr. Of course SheLie did apply some eye shadow for his “reenactment” of course.

    • SearchingMind says:

      @ JUN

      “(…). That is not consistent with bleeding while struggling (…)”.

      Exactly. More importantly, the blood would have been smeared all over Fogen’s face if someone (i.e. Trayvon) were covering Fogen’s mouth and nose, smothering Fogen and suffocating him. On the same ground I do not believe that Fogen applied Trayvon’s blood to his (Fogen’s) head/face – because of the absence of smeared blood.

      • Jun says:

        Although the bloody nose foto seems altered to me

        if real, the big glob of blood crust hanging off the tip of his nose, boggles me

        I cant think of any explanation but it does not come off as a truly broken nose to me and it does not match even the biology of what a nose bleed is

        • IF fogens nose was broken by Trayvon’s first punch as he claims…..and then he was on his back?…….The blood should be running down his cheeks… should also be smeared on his face as he claims Trayvon was smothering him, and in turn be found on Trayvon’s hands

          This is one of the items that have led me to believe the nose injury was from the recoil of his weapon.

          He fired it….gets wacked in the nose by it when he kills an innocent kid…..and then stands up…….hence the blood from the nose running DOWN

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        SearchingMind, you are correct…..the blood, indeed, would have been smeared if Trayvon had used his hands to smother gz and, as so many have said, gz’s blood and DNA would have been on Trayvon’s hands.
        Two days ago, I asked my husband to say a sentence AND demonstrate as he said the sentence. The sentence was something like, “He tried to smother me by using one hand to cover my mouth and the other to cover my nose.” Well, my husband said the sentence and then used his hands to cover his own mouth and nose.
        I think any victim of such an attempted smothering would do exactly what my husband did…… and NOT what George did. George demonstrated in the attacker mode.
        Some of you might also like to try this experiment with someone.

        • blushedbrown says:

          Very interesting.
          You are right, he demonstrates this smothering on the table in the interview as opposed to using his face.

          • Xena says:

            Very interesting.
            You are right, he demonstrates this smothering on the table in the interview as opposed to using his face.

            AHHHH!!! AHH-HA! Very revealing!

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        Yes, blushedbrown……and in the reenactment video.

        • blushedbrown says:

          Very good catch. And yes most people who are describing smothering will almost automatically take both hands to their mouth.

          Excellent observation.

          IIRC, he also did it in the walk thru reenactment, he said “I had my hand on his nose, then changed it to say “I mean his hand was on my nose”. If I find the exact time in the video where he says it, I will post.

        • blushedbrown says:

          Posting too quick, I see you did include reenactment video.

          Need new glasses!!!

          or bigger Fonts. HA!!

      • gbrbsb says:

        Exactly, although there is small area of smeared blood on the right side of GZ´s face but even that does not correspond exactly with Trayvon putting his hand over his mouth and nose. I think what it demonstrates is that Trayvon unlikely had hands over his nose and mouth. The fact that Trayvon had none of GZ´s DNA on his hands will surely be argued that the rain washed it off and that the autopsy was not correctly carried out. But Smith´s photo of GZ´s face, if the defence allow it in, stands witness to the fact that GZ neither had blood all over his eyes etc. but that the smudging from Trayvon putting his hands on his mouth and nose is absent.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Worse than smothering him according to GZ´s visual demo on video Trayvon was actually trying to “pinch” his nose which is absolutely ridiculous… IMO you can only smother very frail lil ol ladies by “pinching” their nose!

      • Well the tardfaces over at HP, the GZ defenders, are trying to argue that the rain would have washed any blood or DNA off of Trayvon’s hands. I keep telling them this is not so, but they are too stupid to understand. LOL

      • Rachael says:

        “Rain would not wash away trace amounts of blood and DNA.”

        That’s what I thought too, so I never did understand why they didn’t at least look for it.

      • Jun says:

        Even when blood is washed with soap and water, it still shows

        the only way to truly wash off DNA is to scrub and use bleach

        and I dont see how that could happen considering the kid was dead

        so for them to claim that is ridiculous when the kid’s hands simply dabbed on the grass and still does not explain the palms having no dna or any other surface such as sleeves and cuffs

        and as far as I know the kid neever suddenly got up and took his hoodie and undershirt to the cleaners seeing that the kid was dying

      • Looolooo says:

        And don’t forget bruising! Fogen’s face shouldv’e been covered in bruises from not only the numerous blows, but all that smothering, pressing with (Trayvon’s Herculean) hand strength and full body weight, as well as finger-shaped bruises from where Trayvon had to have tightly gripped Fogen’s cro-magnon like head in order to repeatedly slam it down on the concrete, causing Fogen to “shimmy shimmy coco pop ……….”.

        And I’ve yet to hear as to what was Fogen doing with his tentacles?

      • Cercando Luce says:

        The coagulated drop of blood off his nose just means that his nose didn’t bleed very much, so the drop there clotted. The fact that it was still red when Wagner took the picture means it had flowed very recently. And why he didn’t licked the blood off his lips? When the he was handcuffed he figured out he needed as much blood as possibly to show, to argue self-defense.

    • Xena says:

      There is no doubt in my mind that GZ lied about spreading Trayvon’s hands because he didn’t know if he was witnessed placing his hands in Trayvon’s wound and using the blood on his head and face for injuries that occurred previous to that night and were healing. Which is another reason he did not want to go to the hospital. Professional medical personnel under professional lighting would know those were not fresh injuries.

      I’ve asked this question previously and would sincerely like to know what others think. Has anyone looked at the photo of the back of GZ’s head taken by Jon, and see a figure pattern? In other words, when you put something in your hair using your fingers, what pattern would it leave?

      • gbrbsb says:

        @Xena: You know I agree with you most of the time but IMO it is too far fetched to think GZ dipped his hands or nose/face into Trayvon´s wounds to get more blood on himself. In the first place he couldn´t know how much blood he already had or in fact needed to show sufficient injuries for self defence and presumably why he asked the neighbour. Secondly however his injuries were caused I think it is at least accepted GZ did have injuries on his nose and head. Thirdly GZ would have had a lot more blood on him had he simply “dipped” his nose, hands or face into Trayvon´s wounds than it appears he had as “dipping” at night in a hurry while Trayvon was still moving and groaning and without knowing exactly where the fatal wound was does not appear to be very precise, Fourth GZ had to presume the police might run DNA tests. Fifth, as Trayvon hardly had any external bleeding there was not much blood to “dip” whatever of his body parts into and to do so he would have smudged blood on Trayvons body, Tshirt or hoodie or all three and on his own jacket, sleeves, face, hands, etc. and forensic experts do know how to read smudges.

        • Xena says:

          @Xena: You know I agree with you most of the time but IMO it is too far fetched to think GZ dipped his hands or nose/face into Trayvon´s wounds to get more blood on himself.

          GZ lied about spreading Trayvon’s arms out. We need to ask why he lied. The only reason I can think of is because GZ wanted to get any blood coming from the gunshot wound so he could put it on his injuries that occurred at another place and time in hopes of making them look fresh and to allege they were caused by Trayvon. The injuries I speak of are those on his head. IMO, his nose was injured by the gun’s recoil since he shot with one hand.

          In the first place he couldn´t know how much blood he already had or in fact needed to show sufficient injuries for self defence and presumably why he asked the neighbour.

          That requires a presumption that he acquired the injuries that night. It’s my position that they were old injuries, already healing with scalps on them. Picking at or rubbing the scalps would cause some bleeding and thus, a reason to ask the neighbor if he was. So the neighbor goes for his cell phone to take a photo of the back of GZ’s head while he’s using his cell phone, Trayvon’s dead body and the tactical flashlight, but doesn’t get anything to help stop the bleeding of life-threatening head wounds?????

          Secondly however his injuries were caused I think it is at least accepted GZ did have injuries on his nose and head.

          This is true, and I suspect that the prosecution will concentrate more on the PA’s report and fact that GZ did not seek medical attention for injuries that he purports made him fear for his life.

          Thirdly GZ would have had a lot more blood on him had he simply “dipped” his nose, hands or face into Trayvon´s wounds ….

          Well, the dipping is something that the Professor introduced. I’ve not thought about it and have no problem believing that shooting with one hand results in some sort of kickback. That is one reason I’ve not been actively involved in discussing GZ’s nose. Getting hit in the nose does not justify responding with deadly force. As far as the amount of blood GZ might be able to obtain from Trayvon’s wound, we have to consider the injury, and how much time GZ had while considering what witnesses could and could not see.

          Actually, I’m very interested in your point 5 — the paramedic’s report and the injury for this reason — she said there wasn’t much blood. Should a shot directly to the heart that is straight, front to back, result in outward blood flow more than what was there when she arrived?

          Fourth GZ had to presume the police might run DNA tests.

          I wouldn’t make that presumption — gunpowder residue, yes. He admitted to shooting so his hands were not placed in plastic bags to reserve it. GZ did not try to re-direct the police so they could get evidence from the ground to support his claim of having his head bashed, either. IOWs, there’s no evidence to support that the blood on his head derived from the boo-boos, and no evidence to support that his head was bashed on concrete, either.

      • I’m in agreement with gbrbsb on this one. GZ had no way of knowing whether or not his noggin would be tested for DNA either, so I doubt that he would do something this outrageous. I believe the reason he lied about spreading Trayvon’s arms out is because he was patting him down for weapons, and if one was found, he’d have put it in Trayvon’s hand, so his story of self-defense would hold more weight.

        • Xena says:

          GZ had no way of knowing whether or not his noggin would be tested for DNA either, so I doubt that he would do something this outrageous.

          He knew how to prevent it –have the EMT’s clean him up and refuse to go to the hospital.

          I believe the reason he lied about spreading Trayvon’s arms out is because he was patting him down for weapons, and if one was found, he’d have put it in Trayvon’s hand, so his story of self-defense would hold more weight.

          That would be credible had he spread Trayvon’s arms out, but he didn’t.

      • Rachael says:

        @ Missi K.

        I totally agree with you. He was hoping to find a weapon because he knew if Trayvon had been armed, saying self-defense would be easier. Instead he had to concoct craziness and hope it would work because Trayvon was unarmed.

        • Xena says:

          He was hoping to find a weapon because he knew if Trayvon had been armed, saying self-defense would be easier. Instead he had to concoct craziness and hope it would work because Trayvon was unarmed.

          That supports why he put the iced tea in Trayvon’s pocket. The lie about spreading Trayvon’s arms is for another reason, IMO.

          • cielo62 says:

            Maybe he was trying to use police procedures, you know, to be as cop-like as possible. Only he didn’t have time after frisking Trayvon for weapons to actually move the arms.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            Maybe he was trying to use police procedures, you know, to be as cop-like as possible. Only he didn’t have time after frisking Trayvon for weapons to actually move the arms.

            But, he said he spread Trayvon’s arms out. He didn’t. He lied. There’s a reason. He was trying to cover up for something.

            Anyway, it still works against him as evidencing another inconsistency. GZ said he spread Trayvon’s arms out because when he was hitting him, it felt like Trayvon has using something more than his fists. The last action that GZ ascribes to Trayvon is that he cupped his hands over GZ’s nose and mouth. Trayvon could not have done that while holding anything in his hands at the same time.

          • blushedbrown says:

            I’ve always thought the reasoning behind him saying that was he knew people seen him touching or pressing on Trayvon’s body. Remember Selma and Mary. He had to come up with something to counter what they saw .He knew they saw him doing something. Selma asked him, “Hey what’s going on out there” so here comes the story he was spreading his arms away to jive with what they might of saw along with the flashlight guy.

      • Jun says:

        They argue about rain washing away DNA, and there is no proof of this

        but anyways

        why does the blood not wash off of the defendant?

        You can’t just make up physics that only works for one party

        so either the defendant was on his back and the blood would wash off the back of his head and the rain drops on his nose


        The defendant was never on the bottom

        • Xena says:

          You can’t just make up physics that only works for one party

          Well, according to the Zidiots, physics also discriminate between parties. What do we expect from them? Already in their double-back theory, they believe that Trayvon read GZ’s mind, ran faster than a speeding bullet, had ability to disappear and appear at will, and x-ray vision to see through GZ’s butt for where he wore his gun.

      • Malisha says:

        I think the part about “I lunged on him and then I spread his hands out because when he was hitting me I thought he had something in his hands,” was a lie to cover the following:

        1. He realized he was probably seen on top of Trayvon;

        2. He realized the bullet, or some part of it, might have passed through Trayvon’s body and exited out the back and gone into the ground, so he would have to make up some kind of story to cover that possibility;

        3. He wanted to see what the condition of Trayvon’s back was (hole? no hole?) and what the condition of Trayvon’s chest was (where?) so he could adjust his story. He knew trayvon was dead.

        4. He was not frightened by the idea that Trayvon was still alive and was going to hit him again “with something in his hands.” If he was still afraid AFTER shooting his gun off, he would have stood up, kept the gun aimed at Trayvon, and backed up, saying something like: “STOP; I’VE GOT A GUN.”

        5. I think when Trayvon was shot he fell onto his back. Fogen flipped him onto his chest to see if there was a hole in his back. He didn’t worry about where Trayvon’s hands ended up.

        6. I think there is ZERO chance that the EMTs saved the gauze they used to clean up Fogen. I think one of the EMTs (the one who claimed the face was 45% covered with blood) was part of the cover-up team and that Smith told him to take care of things so that there would be no evidence to rebut the presumption that Fogen had made “a good shoot.”

        • Xena says:

          5. I think when Trayvon was shot he fell onto his back. Fogen flipped him onto his chest to see if there was a hole in his back. He didn’t worry about where Trayvon’s hands ended up.

          I’ve contemplated that Trayvon also fell on his back and GZ rolled his body over. On the pic taken by Jon, it does look that way.

      • seallison says:

        He knew Trayvon had no weapon and was no threat. He indicates in one of his interviews. So, I do not see him frisking him after the shoot. Why would Trayvon wait until he went for GZs gun to say – Your going to die tonight, MF (or words to that effect. Had Trayvon had a weapon, he sure wouldn’t use his hands to kill GZ, would he.

  35. SearchingMind says:

    The Hannity-interview poses definitely a HANNITY obstacle for Fogen on his way to an ever illusory freedom. BDLR called that interview “God-sent”. That’s an extraordinary description. I invite you guys to figure out why. What does BDLR see that we are not seeing? Below is my take on the ‘God-sent-comment’.

    HANNITY: “(…) . At what moment did you — because you said you feared for your life. At what moment do you remember when you literally — do you remember when you thought, “I may die”? Is that — because you said that you felt — you feared for your life. Do you remember the exact moment when you felt that?”

    Fogen: “In hindsight, I would say when he was slamming my head into the concrete, and I thought I would lose consciousness. I didn’t know what would happen at that point”.

    My remarks:

    Pls. mark the words: “IN HINDSIGHT”. Essentially, Fogen is stating that he became aware of the moment he feared for his life ”in hindsight”?! In other words, moments before- and during the murder of Trayvon Fogen was not aware of any danger to his life? That crucial moment occurred to Fogen ”in hindsight”! That, ladies and gentlemen, is “God-sent” – aka BDLR.


    HANNITY: “Do you remember when you yourself reached for your weapon? Do you remember that moment”.
    Fogen: “Yes, sir”.

    HANNITY: “Tell us about that”.

    Fogen: “At that point, I realized that it wasn’t my gun, it wasn’t his gun, it was the gun”.

    HANNITY: “Did he say anything? Because you said he was talking a lot about the gun. Did he say he noticed the gun?”

    Fogen: “He said, “You are going to die tonight (EXPLETIVE DELETED)” and took one hand off of my mouth and I felt it going down my chest towards my belt and my holster, and that’s when I — I didn’t have anymore time.”

    HANNITY: “Do you think you acted more out of a conscious thought? I mean, I know these events happen very quickly. Do you remember conscientiously thinking I have to grab my gun or did you just do it? Was there a conscious thought that went through your head that you thought you were going to die and that you had to take this — you had to get your weapon and fire?”

    Fogen: “I’d love to give you an answer”.

    HANNITY: “You don’t know?”

    Fogen: “It just happened so quickly”.

    My remarks:
    Fogen is saying that no thoughts whatsoever went through his mind regarding whether or not he was in a life threatening situation, whether or not he was he was going to die, the need to grab is his gun, the need to shoot Trayvon in self-defense, etc. Fogen just doesn’t know why he pulled the trigger and murdered Trayvon, etc. Again, that, ladies and gentlemen, is “God-sent” – aka BDLR.

    • jm says:

      I am not sure this is a God-sent comment BDLR can use, but the fact he told Hannity he had no regrets, even after he learned he profiled and followed a high-school kid seems to me a depraved thing to day.

      I also wonder if there is anything BDLR can use against GZ in court in that GZ changed his story to the dispatcher that Trayvon was running to a skipping Trayvon to Hannity.

      • There is a lot of pure gold in those remarks for BDLR to mine.

        Could be worth 30 minutes of pure torture for the defendant to attempt to endure without losing it.

        I think he will lose it more than once during cross thereby assuring that the jury will convict him in record time.

        • cielo62 says:

          GZ might indeed “lose it” while under cross. But he’s been so medicated of late, I’m wondering if he can even give a complete answer. Will he be allowed to testify while heavily drugged like that?

          Sent from my iPod

      • cielo62 says:

        To me, the lack of regret plus placing it on God’s Plan, makes for a great gift to the prosecution.

      • Jun says:

        I foresee that as well and add to that Nelson has already gotten a defendant for a rape indictment angry during trial, for which the rapist flipped out at everyone during trial

        The defendant did not look too pleased when he had to answer Bernie’s questions even during the first bond hearing regarding the apology

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ Cielo

        “GZ might indeed “lose it” while under cross. (…)’. I definitely agree with you. But I think Fogen – if he dares take the stand – would “lose it” in a non-aggressive manner. Just like when he took the stand during the bond-hearing, he will (quickly) get confused, gaze like a deer in headlights, answer a few questions with affirmative “absolutely not” and all other questions with “I don’t remember”, “I may have said that, but what I meant was …” etc. O’Mara’s goal for filing a self-defense hearing: i.e. smoke out all the evidence the State is having, might ultimately do more damage to Fogen than good since he cannot avoid taking the stand at such a hearing.

    • Malisha says:

      Very good catches!

      Hannity was actually feeding Fogen lines that he wanted Fogen to use to give GOOD answers that would have helped (Hannity thought) Fogen’s case. But in spite of all the heavy-handed suggestion, Fogen wasn’t bright enough to do it. I do not for one moment imagine that Hannity would have been above giving Fogen the questions in advance so Fogen could prepare the answers together with O’Mara, but I think both Hannity and O’Mara realized Fogen was not good enough, as in not smart enough and diligent enough, to really make that work. So Hannity gave Fogen catchy phrases that Fogen COULD have used to give the best of all possible exculpatory answers, but Fogen even blew THAT! SMDH 🙄

    • SearchingMind says:

      What Fogen was “thinking” at the moment he murdered Trayvon lies at the very heart of his self-defense claim. If Fogen – as he told Hannity – “in hindsight” thought that his life was in danger and/or was not having any conscious thought-process when he fired the fatal shot, he could not have been acting in self-defense at the moment of the murder.

      Fogen’s ‘I have no regret comment’ would play a significant role during the sentencing. But first BDLR has to get him convicted.

      The statements made by Fogen to Hannity are definitely impeachment-evidence.

      • You all have thoughtful comments says:

        SearchingMind, you have done a great analysis of the Hannity interview. I am going to print out what you wrote for reference.
        Good work!

    • Xena says:

      @SearchingMind. Oh how I wish I had time to break down that Hannity interview. To start with and for now, GZ’s overall conversation is a complete contradiction to the description and emotion he expressed in his NEN call. Then, in his NEN call, Trayvon was dangerous. In the Hannity interview, Trayvon was bluffing, trying to intimidate, and did not run because he was afraid. Thus, GZ had no regrets following Trayvon because he did not believe Trayvon was a threat to him as he described to the dispatcher, which then questions the validity of what he reported.

      The purported head bashing on concrete had stopped when GZ moved his head to the grass thus, removing his fear of losing his life. However, he changes his reason for fearing for his life by saying he “felt” Trayvon saw the gun.

      Still yet, his purported reason for pulling his gun and killing Trayvon becomes inconsistent for GZ’s reason for being afraid for his life at Trayvon’s hands. In his Hannity interview, GZ said he was “terrified” with the thought that the cops would show up and find him standing there with his gun in his hand and shoot him. Thus, the real reason he was afraid for his life.

      Effectively, GZ could not put his gun away and have the cops arrive to find a screaming, crying teenager report why he was screaming and crying. Neither could he stand there with his gun held on the screaming, crying teenager because that scene automatically makes him the threat to be shot by the cops.

      • seallison says:

        …and, don’t forget that the Hannity interview we watched was edited. The State got the unedited version. One can only imagine what is in the entire interview!!!

  36. Judy75201 says:

    I am glad for this, because I usually don’t have the chops to contribute to your more academic threads, although I enjoy reading them very much. I feel that here I could be more conversational and random. If that is not your intention for the open threads, just let me know.

    • That is my intention, so please participate and enjoy the experience.

    • Looolooo says:

      Welcome Judy75201…… I also recently found a home here on Prof. L’s thread. For over 2 months I devoured EVERY word here and made a donation, before I got up the nerve to make a comment. Everyone one here is sooooo smart, clever, knowledgeable, funny, welcoming and severely astute. Still, I read much more than comment, but only because I’m often frozen in awe of the intellect of the Prof. and company, but never due to a fear of being made to feel like a simpleton.

  37. colin black says:

    Re: GZ General Discussion Thread #5
    by ecossiepossie Today at 5:15 pm

    .colin black says:

    December 29, 2012 at 11:52 am

    Thing is raceism has nothing to do with race peoples differnt shades of colours or faceial features,Raceism religious inttolarance can all shelter unnder the umberrella of hate.Ipsofacto raceism is just an excuse to inflict hurt or slavery demeaning social stauture in Society.Take India for an example a country /sub divided contienent close to my heart.

    I have many Indian and pakistani freinds in Scotland,Ive lived in India for a lot of my adult life an consider it my second home.Yet it is perhaps the most raceist country on this mortal coil we call a planet.

    An the realy strange thing is the purest linniage . Indians bred with only there imeadiate villigers an same caste….caste system did not begin untill later in countrys history…. ,Therfore where pureblood stock of the Indian Land.However Indians that bred with europeans when they arrived British mainly an became mixed bloodlines so to speak mongrols became higher caste simply because there skin was lighter like westerners

    Considered superior therfore thease halfcastes where above life staion to pure bread stock an on an on it went .So the Indians with least pure blood an maximum western blood an hence the lightest skin became top castes An original Indians pure stock became lowest of the low…Refered to as the UNTOUCHABLES…..

    They were not allowed to handle food preperation an were given the lowest of the low jobs .Emptying shit an piss slurry tanks.Barbers wouldnt even cut there hair so they ended up with dreadlocks hundreds of years before Bob Marley was born In the former Yugaslavia fractured after TITOS death Serbians killed fellow sebians sometimes family members through religious differences more often personal fueds an greed to take there homes belonings an land an nothing to do with colour .Australia treats abboriganies as tenth class citizens

    Imprisons them at a higher rate per capita of any miorites in the world Even higher than S Africa at the hight of A PART HIDE..Scots show raceism towards English an vice versa .Irish men an women slaughtered each other for over a century an still till this day.Though its died down considerabbly an the bombs have almost stoped.Over a slight difference between to sects of the SAME CHRISTIAN CHURCH ..An I could go on an on with examples proveing Raceism has nothing to do with fear of skint tones .An everything to do with fear intollarance jealousy .Tribal instincts installed since the dawn of mankind..But those days are gone we are all the same .We have to learn to get a long

    To live together because if we choose not to an cling to our petty tribal band of brothers outdated crap…We will not live together an EVIL will prevai…Dont beleive me think im full off it?…..Do this simple experiment.

    Write down the word evil .Write down the word live..Then read both word back to front an see what they spell…..An this is a point for those treeple whom seem to think skin colour is Important an TRAYVON MARTIN being black contributed to his death…..I assume most are caucasion white?

    Well wrong you are not white In fact you are darker skined toned than Trayvon an all PEOPLES DECENT FROM Africa as all people alive today were decendants of less than ten thousand Africans whom left Africa few hunderd thousand years ago

    I digress Treeple if you know anything about light an refraction freqencies..Objects absorb colour anany it cant absorb bounces of the object an reflects.So we see the sky as blue but its every coulor but blue.Thats the one colour it cant deal with so it rejects it .Same with grass apears green to us as it cant absorb it so rejects /reflects it same with ever colour we see.

    Same with TRAYVON he wasnt a coffee coloured.beutifull hue.He was every colour but.Same with George he wasnt white or pasty coloured.He in reallity was darker skinned than his prey…

    So treeple you better start hateing youselfs an loveing black people…..Wait a minute you already do hate yourselfs an allthough not loveing black people you are certainly jealous an in auwe of there physical prowwness… M O O…………..I know I am Im a pasty skinned Scot an Cassius Clay or Muhamid Ali was my hero .Still is an if some white peoples disstrusst darker peoplee so much .Why do thease flock to resorts like Barbados ect to lay in the sun risk mellonmia to get a tan?Or flock to live in hot sunny states like Florida to get an all year sunshine tan…………….Jealous much of peeps born with a lovely natural tan?

    • bettykath says:

      Along the same lines….

      There is color bias in nearly all groups. It becomes racism when those in power are able to institutionalize that bias so that people are unable to enjoy the rights, responsibilities and privileges of the majority. Individuals who support and/or actively participate in that institutionalization are racists.

      The institutionalization is done by various levels of government by passing laws that discriminate. Local governments pass/enforce building codes differently depending who lives where. Education money gets doled out depending on who goes to that school. An argument can be made that it’s really an institutionalization to further harm the poor and in a different post I might make that argument. If the area chosen for harsh treatment is populated by African Americans or Native Americans, it doesn’t matter what their economic status is, although those with the resources can move somewhere else, but this was not always the case. The price they pay for moving can be the loss of culture and the extended family.

      Corporations such as banks institutionalize the bias, effecting racism, in that they red line areas and refuse to make loans or charge exorbitant interest rates to anyone who lives in the red lined area, or corporations who don’t hire people who don’t “look” or “sound” like them. (At one time, Kodak had a preference for tall blond men. Sort dark women need not apply.) Small (or large) businesses had “xxxxx need not apply” under their help wanted signs. The signs are gone but, in too many instances, the message has not changed, except for what the xxxxx stands for.

      In this country each new group of immigrants has faced racism. The Irish, the Italians, the Germans had a turn and are now fully integrated and no longer face the institutional bias of racism. The Chinese and the Japanese have also had a turn with differing degrees of integration (consider the China towns of the large cities). We see now those from the Middle East, especially those identified as Muslim, and with Hispanics, especially those who have English as a second language. These are groups who have had trouble getting housing and jobs and who frequently are taunted.

      The bias and racism against the people of Africa and the native people of this country are further complicated by our centuries of slavery and by the arrogance of white superiority. Slaves had nothing. Being freed, they lost their source of food and their shelter. They were on their own with nothing and too many advocates of white privilege want to keep it that way. The advantages of having an underclass are many.

      There is more to say but I don’t like long posts. This one already exceeds my limit. Maybe you-all would like to consider the advantages to the elite of having an underclass.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Excellent post, Betty. The sad thing is: social conflicts and strife of the such you describe are inevitable consequences of human societies, essential requirements of economic and social growth and without which there will be no more human societies. The best that can be done is to ensure that – in the course of this conflict – certain (minimum) fundamental- and social rights and freedoms are guaranteed and that we do not end up in the Hobbian natural state where everybody is afraid of everybody and the strong “eats” up the “weak” to assure its own survival.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Haha, Cielo. You are right. You know, many a time, I think we humans fear one another as much as the animals in the wild fear each other. When we go to sleep we lock our doors out of fear that someone might harm us in our sleep. When we walk on the road, make sure that the gun is loaded, ready for fire and we wish we have eyes on the back of our heads, etc. Hmmm, I wonder what Hobbes would be saying if he were alive today.

    • bettykath says:

      Many who are called racists are bigots, those who are “obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices”. They may or may not be racists, although many of them are.

      • SearchingMind says:

        BethyThomas, I think bigotry, prejudice, bias, etc. are species of the genus ‘racism’ which manifests itself in different forms. (BethyThomas is meant as a joke – and I am not good in making jokes. In advance, no offence meant).

      • SearchingMind says:

        I meant BettyThomas.

      • bettykath says:

        Searching, I see no animus in your choice of name for me.

        Not all bigotry is racism. Bigotry can include intolerance for the views of others in things like political or religious views, it can include having an intolerance for physical or mental disability or difference, It can include having an intolerance for particular patterns of speech or accents. None of the things I just mentioned are racism.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Betty, Thomas refers to the biblical doubting Thomas. I think you are judicious. But sometimes the judiciousness gets misplaced. Anyhow, the Thomas-thing was meant as a joke.

        Most definite, “NOT all bigotry is racism”. Indeed, “Bigotry can include intolerance for the views of others in things like political or religious views, it can include having an intolerance for physical or mental disability or difference, It can include having an intolerance for particular patterns of speech or accents. None of the things I just mentioned are racism.”

        However, Betty, the subject of our discussion is: ‘racism’. Within the ambits and context of the concept: ‘racism’ all bigotry is racism. I was not under the impression that we were discussing physical or mental disability or difference and/or religious views.

      • SearchingMind says:

        I meant “….most definitely… (I am the king of typos)

      • bettykath says:

        Searching, You’re right. The topic here is racism. And there was a request for definition. I tried to provide it and to identify that which is not racism but seems to be part of what some here, you included, seem to think is racism.

        Specifically, skin color bias is not necessarily racism. It can be a natural bias born of our tendencies to be drawn to that with which we are most familiar.

        If I have a problem dealing with a person b/c her skin is not the same tone as mine, it is something that I can change by being open to becoming more familiar with that person, overcoming my initial discomfort.

        However, if I use that discomfort by addressing it stereotypically, I’m a bigot.

        If I use that discomfort in my decisions about who to hire, or give a loan to, or if I support that person being denied housing or a job based on her skin tone, I’m a racist.

      • bettykath says:

        Another thought. Many of those who are bigots, people who are biased and accepting of unflattering stereotypes and beyond changing their minds, are also unconsciously racists. They think it is reasonable that people within the stereotype are undeserving of jobs, decent housing, or basic respect. The color of their skin (or whatever other markers the bigot may use) puts them in a stereotypical group. In fact, the use of stereotype is basic to race or cultural bigotry.

      • seallison says:

        Thank you, thank you, Bettykath!

  38. kenteoth says:

    I was thinking about the recent lawsuit against the watchman for his security guard services. Do any of you really believe the service was necessary??

    • I do not believe it was necessary.

    • looneydoone says:

      Mr Rumbaugh, speaking to the security firm’s lawsuit against MOM, fogen and shellie stated
      “z requested far more security than necessary”,
      “those overkill measures made no sense from a security point of view” and….
      “In retrospect, we can see that z was fraudulently inflating his expenses in preparation for his lawsuit against NBC”

      I’m stocking up on popcorn 😉

    • racerrodig says:

      I don’t either. It was that typical “Look at poor, poor me” syndrome.
      With all of his melodrama it begs the question….Who the hell are you Fogen…… and why do you think the entire world revolves around you ?

      This guy is the quintessential nobody with nothing heading nowhere.

    • Jun says:

      I have never believed it

      Fogenhats is a psychopath

      Anyone who thinks to themselves

      “Hmm I have hold of a screaming crying kid, I should kill them”

      is blood clot scary as a person and not right in the head or within reality

      I also know there have been marches with millions I think… and they have all been peaceful and if someone

      and with that many people, yet nothing ever happen to Fogenhats and the fact that he is already arrested and facing indictment and trial for stalking and killing a kid… that is all anyone really asked for… no one was out to kill him… I am sure people are angry at him though

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I find it unbelievable that Fogen would waste so much money on unneeded security. Apparently he thought the gravy train would never end.

      • The defendant lacks intelligence.

      • gbrbsb says:

        The “gravy train” sure must have ended to go from $7000 worth of security a week to just $700!

        • jm says:

          What kind of security can you get for $700 a week?

          • gbrbsb says:

            I must have got it wrong and it´s $700 per day, i.e. $4,900 week or $30 per hour… otherwise it works at around $4 per hour which is ridiculous and less than the hire cost for the video porterage where I live!

          • racerrodig says:

            For $700.00 a week I’ll call him every day and ask “How’s the toilet paper situation” and “…remember, stay inside”

      • Dave says:

        He probably hired a “bodyguard” at one of those streetcorner slavemarkets where fly-by-night roofing contractors get their workers. A hundred bucks a day and he gets to sleep on the couch.

      • I believe the excessive security made fogen feel important…like a movie star. He seems to crave, so very badly, star status. He puts himself on a pedestal and makes claims that he expects everybody to believe and honor because he is (in his own delusional mind) the great hero. He believes his fans worship him for the tough hero he thinks he is, and that they will continue sending money because of this misguided belief. When in reality his so-called “fans” are only backing fogen because of the crime he committed that night…killing a black youth. They would, no doubt, be fans of anyone who kills an innocent black youth. They are backing the action, not the person who took that action. Their racism is quite blatant.

    • seallison says:

      I don’t think it was ever necessary. The Hannity interview, the older brother doing his media tour, the senior member of the clan doing his thing — and of course the bigot neighbour. I think they each have done more harm to themselves than anyone else ever could. But, most everyone knows that justice will make its way in spite of all the crap surrounding the murderer.

    • You all have thoughtful comments says:

      All of what follows is what MrPerryvine wrote to Patrick on Newsvine today:
      [“… security, not that he needed any in the first place………….(Patrick).”]

      “Precisely, Patrick! The wheels of justice are now turning and there is no Black or pro-Trayvon threat to George since people are seeing that he is in court to answer for the happenings that night. Nobody is after George now because we trust the state of Florida circuit court to try it’s best to represent the victim, and everyone is prepared to accept what that court decides; then after that we’re prepared to accept whatever the Federal folks decide; then after that we’ll accept what the civil court decides; Trayvon supporters are not all that displeased. But Zimmie and his supporters are those who are displeased enough with the proceedings enough to start any trouble; so there’s no threat to him, unless it’s from his own crew (Osterman and Taaffe) who may want to keep him silent if they were involved with preparing, training, manipulating, exploiting or “winding him up” to do this; or perhaps, in the extreme, an isolated fanatical racists nutjob who might want to whack him themselves as a strategical, sacrificial lamb, so they could blame it on Black folks to kick-start their much preached, desired and self-prophesied racial and civil conflict, wherein they could then rush in as the saviors with all their amassed weaponry to blast all the rioting Black folks to hell and save the country.

      “Whew! Racists were ecstatic when this incident reached it’s highest heights of civil unrest and racial strife; they rampaged through the social media this past winter, spring and summer in an impish, furious delight, giving it their best efforts to fan a racial spark into a racial flame ignighting a race war that would turn the calendar and clock back to the 1950s. They actually preached this stuff this past year. Poor things were so disappointed, though. I enjoyed calling them impotent anarchists and traitors to the country; and telling them nobody wanted their outdated racial foolishness anymore.”

      • racerrodig says:

        “…unless it’s from his own crew (Osterman and Taaffe) who may want to keep him silent if they were involved with preparing, training, manipulating, exploiting or “winding him up” to do this;”

        I predict Fogen will either slip and give one or both up or just toss them under the bus with the “…they made me do it..” Like the old “I double dog dare ya” routine and since I have all these mental issues and meds by the pound…….get ready…… it comes……
        one more time…………….”It’s not my fault !!”

    • Hi Kenteoth, Nope, not even for a NY minute. The whole “fogen”, troupe were always about the donations, and would lie and lie to keep them coming. It is a wrap, no more money is being “donated”. What’s done in the dark…….Always comes to the light.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Regina, I’m a firm believer in that saying and, I said as much from the start. Fogen thought that just because it was dark when he committed his *murder* that, he was unseen. there is also a saying that, the night has a thousand eyes and for all we know more than one or two sets of those eyes saw what he did. I wish I knew what was on those CD’s that the state has, as well as his text/emails. he is going down and for those who are dumb enough to think that he will have an all white jury, THINK AGAIN!

    • ladystclaire says:

      I definitely don’t think it was necessary for him to have security. why would a person be afraid for their life if they were truly innocent? he also went into hiding on the very night he *murdered* Trayvon. IMO he did so because, he knew he had done wrong and he had to get his pack of lies together.

  39. doremus35 says:

    “Remember the principle of Namaste: That which is divine within me acknowledges that which is divine within you.”

    If we put on hold for just a Planck time or two the highly contentious nostrum of

    Yahweh-Jewish 3761 B.C.E.
    Horus- Egyptian 3000 B.C.E
    Mithra- Persia 1200 B.C.E.
    Attis- Greece 1200 B.C.E.
    Krishna- India 900 B.C.E.
    Dionysus- Greece 500 B.C.E.

    et al and for a nanosecond consider that solipsism, Heisenberg, and Schrodinger got is right, then the only reasonable conclusion one can reach on’ prickishness’ is simply this: a prick by any other sobriquet is still a prick.


    If one can accept a talking bush, well then the sky is literally the limit. As far as the new Olympian event of sky talking, you might want to consider the following:

    The earliest written form of the Germanic word God (always, in this usage, capitalized[7]) comes from the 6th century Christian Codex Argenteus. The English word itself is derived from the Proto-Germanic * ǥuđan. Most linguists[who?] agree that the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European form* ǵhu-tó-m was based on the root * ǵhau(ə)-, which meant either “to call” or “to invoke”.[8] The Germanic words for God were originally neuter—applying to both genders—but during the process of the Christianization of the Germanic peoples from their indigenous Germanic paganism, the word became a masculine syntactic form.[9] Wikipedia

    Sorry you have had this experience my friend. And once again, who can doubt that Diogenes happily ended his quest when he recognized the far reaching light of your mind.

    Namaste with reservations.

  40. Jun says:

    Does anyone know where I can find the CCW refund receipt? I am trying to figure out the date on it.

    • racerrodig says:

      It is in the 1st prosecution document dump. I believe you can google it.

      • Jun says:

        I looked and all I can find is a blurry photocopy of something that looks like a CCW license near the last page

      • Rachael says:

        I’m looking for it too – I’ve googled everywhere and can’t find it.


        • racerrodig says:

          We did see it and it’s there somewhere. Remember that there is no suspension of his permit also because what does not exist can’t be suspended.

      • Jun says:

        I only have the one from Axiom, so perhaps it is a bad photocopy

      • Jun says:

        I am having trouble finding it but if you do find it, please post =)

      • Malisha says:

        Can’t it be obtained by FOIA from the State of Florida, whichever agency issues it? I should think a permit to carry a weapon is public information. His entire record should be obtainable by FOIA.

        • racerrodig says:

          I was told by one of my LE connections there is no record of a permit, hence it could not be suspended. Others have tried to find a record to no avail and I’d say that’s good enough for me.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @racer, in other words he had no ccw permit. I sure would like to know, what your father thought about this case.

        • racerrodig says:

          He had an invalid piece of paper. My dad was to sick to discuss this but I think he’d shake his head and say what I’ve quoted him many times here.

          “Any civilian who leaves the house with a gun is looking for trouble”

          Knowing him as I did I’m sure he’d say to the effect Fogen was just another loser turdbrain (he used that word to describe one’s like this) out to fulfill his own agenda.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        Dear Racer,
        Keep quoting him– it’s too easy to forget the wisdom and good thoughts of a person. I’m sorry he had such a long illness. May he R.I.P.

        • racerrodig says:

          He was a real good cop, but to honest, he was a racist for a real long time and I had a lot to overcome because of that.

  41. racerrodig says:

    Testing….1 – 2 – 3 Testing…….Is this thing on ??

    Much faster……….

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