Open Thread

I posted this open thread so that y’all can continue your conversation on the long thread here.


142 Responses to Open Thread

  1. Diane says:

    Today in the Sentinel, we are warned that GZ is blowing up.

    Is it posssible that Rumsbaugh might be called to testify about superfluous security measures. His credentials include sheriff, swat team, undercover drug agent. I know it would not be relevant to the murder but if GZ complains about racists threats, Rumbaugh could say that no one is harrasssing this guy. From $3100 a day down to $100 a day for 24 hour protection on George, Shellie, Robert, mom and dad seems so unrealistic.

    • Xena says:

      GZ never needed any bodyguards. In all these months, not one incident has been reported of anyone getting close to GZ. He’s not worth going to jail for. Uh — did you hear that, Shellie?

    • Jun says:

      The security team says it was excessive and to suddenly change to $700 a week means it was not necessary because security is expensive, at an estimated guess of $50 an hour for one bodyguard

      Considering what the security provided, 24 hour service, the bill sounds about right and the security company even warned them that it was excessive and probably not necessary but how do you tell a person like Fogenhats something is not necessary when the cops told him the same thing when he stalked Trayvon?

      The fact that Omar was paying $7,000 a week, the figure sounds like they did have a contract in place, for them to have had continued payment for such a period of time, and that there was continuous payment for some time and services provided

      They have been providing services since April since the same plan they publicly stated was also recorded to be stated between Shelly and Fogenhats, which means, it was Fogenhats’ plan

      So this pretty much proves the defense can’t honor their word, then tried to flake out by claiming not to have a written contract, although there is gonna be lots of evidence of a contract, whether written or not (I am guessing emails as well and texts) and that the defendant was never in any danger, considering the security mentioned that and Omara even admitted it and really nothing has happened to the defendant

      Yes, I believe people do want to at least give Fogenhats an uppercut, including Governor Rick Scott and Mayor Triplette, especially after hearing the NEN tape and the 911 scream tape

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Hmmm… For 100 dollars a day, my guess is they each get a pendant with a button to press if they sense trouble. $20/day x 5, just about right.

  2. Xena says:

    Amazon now ranks Mark Osterman’s book at number 1,240,079. That’s not sales but ranking. LOL!!! There are currently some used editions available for $9.00.

    • Rachael says:


      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Anyone check Might be some for even less there. Usually a publisher will ship a number of books out to stores, to see if they can be sold. After couple of months they come back as returns, the publisher doesn’t want to pay return shipping and storage so they simply send them to some after market re-seller who gets what he can for them.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Just wait. If you buy a copy, the ranking will come down into 6 figures. Someone will profit from this perp’s book.

    • Malisha says:

      Of course, for that same $9 you can get four sandwiches and pay the tax. Have a little party! And in case you want the Cliff Notes on Osterman’s book, here they are:

      Cliff Notes, “The Most Hated Man in America”

      Chapter I. Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah

      Chapter II. Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah

      Chapter III. Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Booo Hooooo Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Boo Hoo

      Chapter IV. Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah

      Chapter V. See Chapter III.

      Conclusion: Fogen is still the most hated man in America. But I’m the most boring.

  3. Malisha says:

    They aren’t “decent Americans”; they are descent Americans.

    • Jun says:

      According to Bobby Fogenhats Junior…

      Zimmernuts Fogenhats, stalking and pursuing, attacking and threatening, and confronting and instigating violence upon a black kid, because the black kid was walking with Skittles & Ice tea, means that the Fogenhats family is not racist, it means that the people reporting it have an agenda to make Zimmernuts Fogenhats into a racist white killer


      I have come to the conclusion that Bobby Fogenhats Jr lives in Bizarro world where the opposite is said of everything…

      so if he says decent, he means dispicable

      and when he says not racist, he means they are racist

      and when he says that Trayvon is a vicious black dynamite gangsta, he means Zimmernuts Fogenhats is

  4. Malisha says:

    OK over at the Turley blog I ran into another issue I decided to bring over here: the big macho gun experts’ defense of the use of hollow-point bullets for what they call “self-defense.” They’re all sure that without hollow-point bullets, terrible things will happen to them and all decent Americans. They fear a veritable holocaust if we’re not all armed up at least as well as Fogen. So one of them seized the opportunity to tell me that since I admitted not knowing much about weaponry, I should stop expressing myself on the subject. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA you can imagine how well that went over.

    But while I was writing my response to him, things came to me. One is this: the folks who are like Fogen, protective of their guns and dismissive of the rights of “inferiors” whom they all accuse of being “thugs” and criminals, fantasize about killing their imaginary assailants. They really do the fantasy “Make My Day” thing in their minds on a daily basis!

    They are proud of their knowledge of KILLING TECHNOLOGY. They have a paranoid need for guns — they brag about their weapons and their “freedom.”

    I said, “A hollow-point was undoubtedly the best way to kill a kid in a residential neighborhood on a drizzly evening on 2/26/2012 in Sanford? You can probably prove to me that yes, it was indeed the best way to kill that kid in that neighborhood that night. Indeed, the gunman (who undoubtedly knew more than me about hollow-point bullets) chatted with a neighbor after the fact, about what kind of bullet he used to “bring down” his dangerous assailant/alias “the kid.”

    Do I think “sensible gun control” and limitations on the use and ownership of hollow-point bullets will win in this political, social, and economic climate? Frankly, no I do not. I think the gun-ho-gung-and-dung-gang has a lot more voting power than the “cease fire” crowd any day. Fortunately, I won’t live long enough to see where all this ends up in another 40 years because it’s already so nauseating to me that I over-use some generic medications.

    I have noticed that weaponry really attracts a certain kind of pre-insulted, pre-assaulted, overly defensive types. Fogen was one. I’m not speculating on how he got that way but I have seen him do what would be a parody of that kind of person if there was a really good, subtle comedy writer behind his rap. That case has a lot to tell us about our culture, and even more to tell us about how we have responded to it, and it is the case that keeps on giving.

    If Fogen didn’t have a hollow-point bullet in that gun, it might have been a very interesting, uplifting heart transplant story, the kind they show on made-for-TV movies. Instead, the narrative of our descent.

    • Jun says:

      I feel there is a real possibility that the neighbor that Fogenhats was talking to, was deathly afraid of Fogenhats…

      I mean, he had to have heard a kid screaming for help or at least screaming which were stopped by the gunshot

      and then they see Fogenhats bragging about his hollow point bullets like stalking and killing a terrified kid is so awesome to him

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Jun, in Serino’s interview with Selma and Mary, they expressed trepidation about the fact that the killer hadn’t been arrested and was still on the loose. Who didn’t? Anyone confronted or acquainted with a whacko killer would certainly want to distract him from his murdering by saying “(Hey dude, I’m on your side so don’t shoot) Man, what kinda bullets ya got in yer piece?” SPD’s failure to arrest Fogen influenced the witnesses.

      It occurs to me Fogen might have gone hiding so as to confuse RTL witnesses as to what happened to him.

      Malisha, you have pinpointed the gun nuts as “Pre-insulted, pre-assaulted.” Love your observations.

      • Jun says:


        I hope I am correct. I am just going by human psyche, and most people would rather avoid dangerous situations and those people lived fairly close to each other and for them to learn and hear a life or death struggle and scream for help which was ended by a gun shot and sounded like a kid… and then some neighbors come out and find the killer acting like killing the kid was nothing would spook most people, especially since the cops did not even arrest the damn killer…

        realistically, the killer could have gone around threatening witnesses…

        I know I would have a reasonable fear of the defendant if that happened by my house and then the cops let the psychopath free to roam around…

        The defendant was roaming around with many guns and knives after killing the kid, the kid who was screaming

        I believe even I would have been like “Yea, sure buddy, so aweome the hollow points…”

        Then think to myself “okay it is time I try to slip away and not let this psycho killer who just killed a screaming kid know who I am or where I live”

  5. Jun says:

    Since Omara and West are taking their legal advice from Junior Fogenhats and Sr plus the Conservative Tinfoil Treefort, here is what we can expect to be argued at trial from them:

    (1) It was only following. You can not attack people for following you repeatedly on a dark night with a gun full of hollow point bullets. A black teenage kid with Skittles is supposed to simply submit to the will of a complete stranger yelling at him and lunging at him and attacking the black teenage boy by jumping on him and grabbing him out of the blue, while physically larger armed with a gun. The fact that Fogenhats has every combat advantage available in physical size, years and years of experience with instigating violent encounters and attacking others, mentally a psychopath and a sociopath, a former bouncer, angry and hateful, and had a gun full of hollow point bullets, does not mean he is any reasonable danger to a black teenage boy with only candy and couldn’t punch his way out of a wet bag. The fact that the defendant called him a “fuckin coon”, an asshole who always gets away, suspicious, walking while black, is not hateful or angry language. Oh yeah, and it was not stalking or aggravated stalking, it was just going in the same direction. A black teenage boy is not allowed to defend himself against a stranger aggressively lunging at him and stalking him in a menacing fashion or attacking and threatening him, otherwise it is felonious assault

    (2) When the defendant was attacking the victim, I mean, the defendant had no problem homey, the reason the witnesses saw them move from the north to south is that they both fell through a black hole that teleported them while the defendant was attacking the victim, I mean the victim, the MMA champion and expert was reigning down blows of assault

    (3) Rain is only able to wash blood off of the victim’s hands but is unable to wash off of the defendant’s head and all bleeding from the defendant has a reverse gravitational pull.

    (4) The defendant does not bleed out a likely broken nose, I mean real broken nose through the nostrils like everyone else. He bleeds through the tip of the nose and is unable to go past his bottom lip. His broken nose also causes the dimensions of his head to drastically change dimensions but thank god he made it to the police station where the reverse gravity made his head shape go back to normal

    (5) The defendant is not racist. The defendant just does not like Arabs, Mexicans, or Blacks.

  6. debesq says:

    Mr. Leatherman, I think someone is impersonating you on Huffington Post and soliciting donations.

    Professor Leatherman
    0 Fans Become a fan
    22 minutes ago ( 8:39 PM)
    My adamant support for Trayvon Martin is sincerely and deeply felt. Your donations allow me to continue to passionately advocate for such a righteous cause. I am offering a service to you and I deserve to be compensated. It has become a second career for me.

    There have been other posts in addition to that one, all of which can be seen here:

  7. sunnieday7 says:

    Junior is a waste of time. I wonder if he understands what he is saying. It is just a bunch of words, hoping something will stick with GZ supporters. Junior only proves one thing to me, personality disorders and/or a form of mental illness is prevalent in the Zimmerman family maybe probably stemming from their dysfunctional parents.

  8. SearchingMind says:

    @ Two sides to a story

    “(…) – is Jr. pushing the boundaries of acceptable public discourse? Can any of the people that Jr. disparages sue him for libel?”

    The issues you raise falls under the broadest and complicated aspects of the law: the First Amendment. I shall try to be very shot and may as such not do justice to the issue raised. For the purpose of this discussion, I shall use the word ‘defamation’ instead of libel and/or slander since the former encompasses the later. For a successful defamation action, the following CUMMULATIVE elements have to be present:

    – A statement (oral or written- or otherwise depicted on paper, etc.) which is:
    – published
    – false
    – injurious
    – unprivileged and
    – malicious, if the plaintiff is a public figure.

    These criteria must be carefully considered, weighed and balanced in the light of the First Amendment. In the case of New York Times v. Sullivan, (376 U.S. 967 84 S. Ct. 1130 12 L. Ed. 2d 83 1964 U.S), SCOTUS established “a profound national commitment to the principle that debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open.” It also acknowledged, among others, that in public discussions mistakes can be made which should be protected from defamation actions. If what is said is (a) “true” and/or (b) “privileged” and/or (c) “an expression of an opinion” as opposed to a statement fact and/or (d) “fair comment on a matter of public interest”, it would definitely be protected by the First Amendment. As you know, the murder of Trayvon Martin has generated enormous amount of very sharp and emotional public discourse on public issues such as race and race relations, crime, gun and gun control, law enforcement and equality under the law, etc. In cases like this, the full force of the First Amendment comes to bear. The First Amendment constitutes one of the essential foundations of a democratic society, one of the basic conditions for its progress and for the development of every man. It is applicable not only to ‘information’ or ‘ideas’ that are favorably received or regarded as inoffensive, but also to those that offend, shock or disturb the state or any sector of the population and/or individual. Such are the demands of that pluralism, tolerance and broadmindedness without which a democratic society will become illusory. Robert Zimmerman Jr. has indeed been making many outrageous statements. But I do not think that those are not protected by the First Amendment. With regard to his threats to sue others for defamation and the actual defamation action initiated by George Zimmerman against MSNBC, I would remark that according to SCOTUS both Robert Zimmerman and George Zimmerman are PUBLIC FIGURES (of which there are three types of: (a) All-purpose public figures, (b) Limited purpose public figure and (c) Involuntary public figure) and must, for their actions to succeed, among others, prove “actual malice” on the part of their (potential) defendant(s). See, among others, Rosenbloom v. Metromedia – 403 U.S. 29 (1971).

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Thanks all. All said, I think most people will just ignore Jr. – probably the most effective course of all. May his name be forgotten as well.

  9. Cercando Luce says:

    (40,000) paid so far to security firm now suing
    (50,000) spent right away before 1st arraignment
    (100,000) presumed paid for second bail
    ( 1,000) for ankle monitor @$8/day

    Leaving $150,000. What else has come out of the account to justify claims of “broke,” “penniless” etc.? MO’M claims to have received not a penny.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      I would like to know how much has gotten since the $340,000.

    • cielo62 says:

      MOM has been deposing a ton of people. Depositions aren’t cheap. Neither is toilet paper.

      Sent from my iPod

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Perhaps they’ve already spent some on expert testimony – ? And there’s the ongoing expenses for Fogen and Shellie. Perhaps his money is paying for her attorney as well.

      • Malisha says:

        HA HA HA HA and guess which one is worth more?

    • Jun says:

      I think the broke and penniless spiel is a lie and has already been used before by the defendant at the first bond hearing

    • Xena says:

      Leaving $150,000. What else has come out of the account to justify claims of “broke,” “penniless” etc.? MO’M claims to have received not a penny.

      Rent or extended stay motel fees, food (for 2 adults), medicine, (GZ no doubt did not continue his health insurance under Cobra). Clothes. GZ needed a suit and subsequently, needed larger size pants, belt, and a sports jacket, shirts.

      If his dog is with them, (and I remember reading something about him taking the dog on walks after dark), the cost of dog food.

      The cost of depositions. Court reporters/transcribers for each deposition. Costs of certified copies of written transcripts.

      Posting $100 for ShelLIE’s bond and paying her attorney.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        But $150,000? What can eat up money like that? Cosmetic surgery? What does a court reporter cost? Clothing? Dog food? It doesn’t add up, especially when they’re not paying for security.

        • Xena says:

          Oh, here we go:
          “The guards would rotate in and out on either 8- or 12-hour shifts and live in a room next to the Zimmermans, at a tourist-area hotel equipped with a kitchenette, records show.”

          So, they’re paying not just for one kitchenette hotel room, but also for a hotel room next to them for their body guards. I did a little research on rates at extended stay hotels in Seminole County that are dog friendly, have WiFi, fridge, stove, etc., and found the average is around $120 a day — $3,600 a month. And, that’s just for one room.


        • Xena says:

          What does a court reporter cost?

          I’m not sure about Florida but in Illinois, a 10 page transcript runs about $125.00 That includes appearance fee for the average of an hour long deposition. The transcript of Santiago’s deposition is 77 pgs. which based on Illinois rates, would cost O’Mara close to $900.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        OK, let me work my calculator. I’ll multiply Serino’s by 50 people @ $900 = 45,000. Hotel rooms @ $3600 x 6 = 21,600. Clothes? I’ll say 3,000. $69,600 so far. Alpo, let’s say $1,000. Leaving about $80,000. It’s not limitless, but not broke either. You could still go start a new life in South America.

        • Xena says:

          Oh — Cercando — there might be the trust administrator’s fees as well, may some software, such as Quicken, and Paypal fees. Then there’s the cost of the thank you cards, postage, laundry, dry cleaning, hair cuts, manicures, webmaster. (I know, hard to figure out and keep up with.) 🙂

      • Jun says:

        They have 18,000 or so or more stashed somewhere. It was mentioned on their jailhouse phone calls.

        • Xena says:

          Well, O’Mara certainly has himself between a rock and a hard place. He cannot honestly ask the court to find GZ indigent as long as there is a legal defense fund, because there is no way to prove to the court that the fund will not increase. He can’t afford to dissolve the fund either.

          Most criminal defense lawyers only have to concern themselves with zealously representing their clients without the hassle of also being their guardian including having their client call when they need toilet paper.

      • Jun says:

        LOL it also does not help that Omara was caught with false statements publicly regarding the defense fund and the passport

        • Xena says:

          IMO, O’Mara spoke quickly out of embarrassment. It gave GZ time to build his web and sadly, O’Mara got caught in that web. O’Mara has a fatherly type of personality and no doubt believes that he can talk/teach convince GZ to be honest and forthright. But, O’Mara’s not dealing with a person who wants to be honest and forthright. GZ will cut O’Mara’s throat as fast as he will anyone else’s and make it O’Mara’s fault.

  10. Malisha says:

    I finally went ahead and read Junior’s ranting letter. It carries on because various Blacks have said that the dispatcher told Fogen not to get out of his car, when in fact the dispatcher actually told fogen not to FOLLOW after he had already GOTTEN out of his car. It is, again, a distinction without a difference. He also gets threatening, that journalists will be SUED! Oooooooooooh. And he lies — the “crime-ridden neighborhood” was not crime ridden until his brother killed somebody there.

    But all that aside, it’s just stupid. Does Junior hate Blacks? Sure, if they don’t want to accept murder and lying from his sainted brother as their natural lot in life. Sure, if they don’t think their “suspended from school children” should be murdered in the rain. Sure, if they stand up for themselves and each other rather than cower or flatter the likes of him and his previously-estranged little trouble-maker brother. His poor mother was threatened? By whom? Not by Crump, not by Jackson, not by Sharpton — by whom? The only person reported as having committed a crime against Junior’s mother is — well, it’s GEORGE!

    His letter is a fumbling, disrespectable, self-righteous, unintelligent, pompous, meaningless temper tantrum and the right thing to do with it is to ignore it.

    • Mike says:

      It was a very painful letter to read, I can’t help but get infuriated after having read it.

      • Jun says:

        For lack of better word, Junior’s an asshole and a jerk, and also as much a scheming liar as his brother is

        There is an agenda attached to his words

        and he is doing it to try and piss people off because he is pissed off himself so he is trying to make others feel like him

        just ignore him or just vent here or whatever

    • Malisha says:

      Junior’s fussing about “they said he was told not to get out of his car and that wasn’t true and they lied on my brother and they lied and lied and Blacks are bad blah blah boo hoo blah blah” reminds me of a war story I heard from a lawyer one time. He was representing an accused indigent defendant (assigned case given to him by a judge right after he clerked and then went into private practice) who was accused of climbing in the window of a 70-year-old woman and raping her. Although the lawyer advised his client to plead out to assault and do five years, the defendant refused and demanded a trial. The guy was sitting at defendant’s table with his lawyer and the complaining witness, the old lady, was testifying. She described him coming in the window. She said he was wearing a nylon windbreaker jacket in a dark color, denim jeans, white socks and white sneakers. The defendant grabbed his lawyer’s jacket and whispered urgently into his ear: “The bitch is LYING; I never wear white socks; I was wearing BLACK SOCKS!”

  11. Puck says:

    Hey hey hey, it’s me, puck of (brief) HP infamy. I’ve posted here a few times and know quite a few of the regulars from those heady (yet incredibly frustrating) HP days in the summer. I left HP, because there was no point in staying there; also, as an academic, I find intellectual dishonesty abhorrent (not to say there was much intellect among the Zidiots). But I’ve still been reading here, just not posting.

    In any case, there were some little aspects of the case that I would hear about a few times but would never gain steam. Since this is an open thread, I thought I might bring up some of these to see if they have been established through witness statements or by other credible sources.

    First: GZ’s head wounds. Given the discussion of coagulated blood possibly preceding the entire counter, even the NEN call, I always think back to one witness’s statement about GZ walking around with his hands on his head. That would surely be to re-open closed wounds. But I also heard that another witness saw GZ from behind looking down with an arm bent as if he were punching his own nose. That would account for his asking one of the neighbors if he had blood on his face – to make sure he looked a mess.

    Second: Can someone give me a quick refresher on why we’re suspicious of a few of the witnesses? I think Jeremy was one of them.

    Third: Angela Corey said at one point that there was one witness who saw the whole thing. Was she referring to the teacher? The boy walking his dog? Or someone we haven’t heard about because that testimony’s been sealed to public?

    There might be others. In any case, as all of you I’m sure, I’m dying to see the phone and text message records. I think that’s the nail in the coffin, and that’s why there’s a push to seal them.

    • Malisha says:

      I think you’re right on the money, Puck. And to quote your namesake, “Man’s ear has not seen and his eye never heard” such marvels as we will learn if there is a trial…

    • grahase says:

      In my opinion, the State will not release further evidence until ater the immunity hearing. Because the murderer has to show he acted in self-defence, there will be perjury at that hearing. I have no doubt. After he loses the hearing, evidence will appear and there is probably more than enough to show Murder 2, perhaps Murder 1. The prosecution is preparing for trial not the hearing.

      • grahase says:

        MOM has been trying the case in the court of public opinion. He has also been attempting to try the case at every opportunity in the courtroom. This is an attempt to have the state show their hand before the immunity hearing. But, his attempts have thus far been unsuccessful. He really wants to know what they have.

    • whonoze says:

      I am suspicious of Jeremy and his partner W11 because their statements to do match the evidence of her 911 call. Jeremy says he went into the kitchen to get a knife. The kitchen is in the front of the house. Yet, at this time in the 911 call, W11 is yelling “Jeremy get down” and “Jeremy get in here.” Both says they saw nothing, but if Jeremy was not “in”, it makes sense he was “out” on their screened in porch where he would have seen quite a lot. In addition, the timbre and lack of ambience of the screams and gunshot on the 911 call suggests the phone was in a line of sight to the sound source, as high frequencies do not go around walls or corners.

      Jeremy and W11 are also both realtors, and W11 is an official the the RATL HOA. They would know better than anyone that the HOA is subject to a wrongful death lawsuit. And everyone who bought a townhome at The Retreat a few years ago is already in financial trouble, as the value of their homes has dropped to about 40% of what they paid for them. So they have a financial motive to refrain from telling everything they know.

      I highly doubt GZ’s head wounds preceded the encounter. I think he scraped his head on the broken sprinkler cover in JohnW6’s yard as the two men rolled over each other in the grass, “wrestling” as JohnW6 put it in his 911 call (before he talked to the police and decided it was an MMA-style beat-down).

      • Jun says:

        Yes, that will be coming up in trial, best believe that

        That is going to be a wonder as to why she said to get in here…

        but at the same time, Jeremy’s testimony does not help the defendant at all, because he even attests that the screams came from Trayvon as his testimony is that there were screams for help which were ended with a gunshot

      • blushedbrown says:

        Agreed on all your points.

        W6 and 11 are on my “Don’t trust statements lists”.

        and injuries were caused either by rolling around broken sprinkler head and or slipped on wet grass while in pursuit of Trayvon.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          My point is, using the evidence it is extremely unlikely that GZ injured himself and caused this blood pattern/state in the available 8 minutes after leaving his truck.

          Pick any time during those 8 minutes and see if you can then explain, why the blood trails show no interruption. There are activities that MUST, without doubt and no guessing, occur, that have to make a mess of these blood trails, if they were wet during that time. Since the only way they could become fixed in the fashion seen, is if the head were held fairly steady for some 6.5 minutes, until the blood had at least congealed.

          There is no time, anywhere between GZ leaving his truck and the picture being taken, that allows for the preservation of the state of the blood flows.

          If they are not more than 6.5 minutes before the “fight”, the blood is wet and should be smeared by contact with the concrete and the grass. Subtract 2.5 minutes from the 8 and you have only 5.5 minutes left, remembering that it’s raining and everything is wet and it’s a cool 60 degrees.

          If they are made during the “fight” they can’t be more than 2.5 minutes old, must be completely liquid and therefore still flowing. But pictures taken later, show the blood flow extended no further than they did in the first picture, meaning they had already stopped flowing 2.5 minutes after the “fight”, which, of course, is impossible.

          I don’t have to either guess or theorize here. All I have to do is point to what the evidence is showing. There simply isn’t the required time to arrange the blood spatter evidence, in the way it appears in the photo, if the wounds happen after GZ leaves his truck.

          The barrier that is being argued against is the time it takes blood to congeal on one hand, and dry on the other hand. But, I’m leaving out the drying evidence here, to focus on the impossibility of the blood flows, having been started any time after GZ leaves his truck.

          • Xena says:

            The barrier that is being argued against is the time it takes blood to congeal on one hand, and dry on the other hand. But, I’m leaving out the drying evidence here, to focus on the impossibility of the blood flows, having been started any time after GZ leaves his truck.

            Lonnie, what if it was applied blood? Like, not GZ’s blood? Sincerely, I would like to know if anyone who looks at the pic of the back of GZ’s head sees a finger pattern, like running fingers down his scalp.

            What I’m thinking is that maybe the wounds came from a fight or accident that Friday or Saturday, so they were already there. After he killed Trayvon, and to make a claim of self-defense, all he would need is blood because the wounds were already there. It could be anybody’s blood, even Trayvon’s blood.

            GZ admitted to frisking Trayvon’s body, but he lied about spreading out Trayvon’s arms. He had a reason to tell that lie.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Anything is possible, but if it was applied blood the question that has to be answered is “why?”. since it’s much easier to simply have himself cut and let the blood flow. He wants it to look “natural” but the problem is, the view of what is natural, comes from what’s in his own head at the time. He never asked himself “natural for what?”. Or, maybe he did and had some other narrative in mind, whatever it was, it depended on him getting TM back to the T.

            But, while he was in the process of herding him back to the T, he was interrupted by witnesses coming out. He’d quickly realize that now, if he herded TM back to the T, there would be witnesses to state that they saw him chasing TM from south to north. He was alright as long as there were no eye witnesses, since he could later say that it was TM herding him. But they caught him and that plan had to be abandoned.

            Obviously the story he had planned, he had rehearsed so well, his drug addled brain was unable to change gears.

            Has anyone checked out how GZ sounds on his other NEN and 911 calls? As I said his voice is nothing like it was on 2-26-12. His voice is clear and his words are crisp. Not slurred as we hear on the NEN tapes.

          • Xena says:

            Anything is possible, but if it was applied blood the question that has to be answered is “why?”

            Because, the injuries were already there, from Friday or Saturday, and he sought to take advantage of them by making them appear fresh in order to substantiate his allegation of Trayvon attacking him.

            Idk, but the more I look at the picture of the back of his head, the more it looks like blood applied by running fingers on his head AROUND the boo-boos’. The pattern of the blood trails on his head running sideways across his head make no sense. And, by the EMT’s saying it was dried when they cleaned him up, makes me wonder how fast applied blood dries.

            Has anyone checked out how GZ sounds on his other NEN and 911 calls? As I said his voice is nothing like it was on 2-26-12. His voice is clear and his words are crisp. Not slurred as we hear on the NEN tapes.

            Absolutely! Even before I listened to his previous 911 calls, (it was at his first bond hearing), I noticed a difference in his speech compared to his 2/26 NEN call as well as his tone and pegged him as a phony.

            The saying about first impressions lasting is true. On 2/26, GZ was ANGRY, AGGRESSIVE, and he used profanity as though it’s his everyday language. That’s the real George Zimmerman.

            Because he refused to go to the hospital, I also figured he was drunk or stoned on drugs.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        @Lonnie starr
        Do you have a link to other NEN or 911 calls made by Fogen? I’ve never heard any other ones and would like to compare.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Thanks Blushedbrown…i listened to all of them. I agree with lonnie, none of them are like the one on 2/26. The 2nd one is on my mind though. It sounds to me as though Fogen is getting a little out of breath at times, from walking? And who is that in the background telling him where the black kid is going?

        • blushedbrown says:

          He’s out of breath IMO, because he is excited. Notice how he gives the operator notification that Shellie talked to a “DETECTIVE”. To let the operator know that they spoke to someone of authority that gives them somehow special attention. Shellie is giving blow by blow descriptions of what’s happening, while he is on the phone. He wanted to go outside to confront or follow but shellie says no. From listening to the call it seems the person that they were watching was actually getting into a car, when she says forget it he went to or in a car. Also notice the deflation in his voice when she says “dont go out there”. It is possible that he was in the clubhouse or his own house.

          The reason I say the clubhouse, is that after viewing the video by Marinade Dave, all residents have keycard entry to the clubhouse, like Frank used and said in the video. It is very possible to me at least that he may have set up shop there to surveille the neighborhood. How else would he know if they were by there. The location of his house is 1950 RVC, the clubhouse at least on Google seems way to far to see what he is seeing from that distance without binoculars. He has to be on foot, car or at or in the clubhouse.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        I need new headphones…it’s hard to hear Shellie. I thought she said that he was looking into cars.

        If they were in the clubhouse would they be able to see him go between the house to the back?

        • blushedbrown says:

          You and me both, need new headphones. 🙂

          It is always assumed by GZ, that they will go to the back gate irregardless if they are indeed going that way. IMO, that makes it more urgent for 911 to respond if they say that, JMO

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Yes, they always go to the back and get away, that is why he wasn’t letting Trayvon get away that night.

        Notice how Fogen recalls the names of other streets outside of RTC in other calls, , but on 2/26 he just can’t remember the names of the other two streets in the gated community that he lives in…the ones he walks and drives on daily doing his neighborhood watch.

        • blushedbrown says:

          To quote Frank Taaffe “I think he had fed-up issues. He was mad as hell and wasn’t going to take it anymore,” Taaffe said of Zimmerman.
          April 2012.

  12. sdunn5 says:

    Oh my this family has the psychopathy in their genes. I like the opening…From The Desk of Robert Zimmerman Jr. Is he for real? The Desk of??????? And the run around crazy narrative insults my senses…..fogen when on foot was told not to follow Trayvon…fact, but (this is the psychotic and myopic way they think) “he was never told to not get out of his truck”????????????? And this is race baiting. This dude needs medication. I am sick of the wording of these nimrods. And this mental defect seems to run right through all of them. I used to go round for round with these amoeba’s on comment boards back in May but wow what for it’s pathetic and it numbs the mind. I like the occasional glimpse nowadays to watch them imploding. Internet Research Rob? Wow sift through their manure yikes how funny. I just can’t imagine how these few sick people saturated the internet every crack and crevice. The FBI and FTC are just watching and putting it all in an evidence blender.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Interesting that you should mention psychopathy. Here’s a ink I just came across, as I’m interested in how this manifests in leadership and gov’t, but of course the study of pscyhopathy is applicable to family dynamics as well –

      I’ve often wondered if OM and Fogen are two peas in a pod or if OM and his defense team have simply been sucked into Fogen’s psychopathic universe.

      • cielo62 says:

        Psychopath- the entire checklist sounds like my former boss! Man, I hated her and she took great pleasure in humiliating people. I left 7 years ago. A friend told me recently that the boss had had open heart surgery. In all seriousness I responded that I didn’t know she even had a heart.

        Sent from my iPod

  13. Xena says:

    Okay, here are the Zimmermans. Papa and Mama Zim are too old to start over in life. Junior, his sister, ShelLIE and George are not talented or creative enough to earn money by any means other than working for others. No one is offering them employment. They are too embarrassed to apply for work. What to do?

    Create situations hoping to sue. Created enough of them against enough people so they don’t have to work.

    GZ got a taste of what it’s like to have more than a few hundred dollars at his disposal. He liked the taste of it and planned on never working another day in his life.

    Junior’s diatribes are not about defending GZ. They are about provoking situations hoping to sue so he doesn’t have to actually work for a living.

  14. grahase says:

    Love it when Junior lashes out. Yeah, he can be provoked and he attacks like a viper. Provoking him is not hard to do. He says he is going to get Natalie Jackson disbarred – his goal in life. There are others he has threatened.

    • Xena says:

      His letter to Robles is a threat also. Essentially, Junior says that unless journalists only write one-sided articles of what he tells them, (and omit what others say or do not interview them) that he will consider it libel. Apparently, he lacks knowledge of journalism. A journalist who wants to present a balanced article always tries to get statements from other parties. Junior doesn’t like those statements but he’s too much of a coward to let a court decide whether they committed libel.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Which leads me to ask the professor or anyone with some knowledge of the law – is Jr. pushing the boundaries of acceptable public discourse? Can any of the people that Jr. disparages sue him for libel?

        • Xena says:

          Can any of the people that Jr. disparages sue him for libel?

          Libel is the publishing of things that are untrue. Junior’s most recent belly aching is because he doesn’t like GZ being referred to as the “gunman.” He and GZ’s supporters don’t like GZ being referred to as the “killer” either. They want to whitewash GZ’s actions. He did kill. He was the gunman, and he is the alleged murderer of Trayvon Martin.

          Junior, IMO, is not worth the paper used to write a complaint. What he has demonstrated is threatening behavior towards others, including officers of the court. When he says his life goal is to destroy the career of an attorney, he made numerous enemies across the nation. All this, because Junior cannot control others and can’t have his way.

          O’Mara needs to petition the court to order an injunction on Junior.

      • grahase says:

        TSTAS – would it be worth it to sue someone like him. He isn’t worth the effort. His actions have done nothing but demonstrate how ignorant a person who is loving the spotlight AKA a media whore.

  15. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    Junior wrote:

    The apparent lack of sympathy from Tracy Martin referenced in your article does not surprise me. Referring to George, he says “he took that on”. He still is unwilling or unable to publicly acknowledge his repeatedly suspended-from-school son could ever be capable of attacking George. George did not “take on” anything but his
    assailant, and referring to preserving his life in his own words
    says “I shot to savemy own”.

    I am a white female. mother of two and I want to slap Junior in the face. I could only imagine what Tracy is feeling after reading this article. The anger and pain he must feel from reading Junior’s comment and the tone of this comment about his son, who was killed by the hands of FOGEN.

    This is what I’m talking about with his true agenda…he is purposely trying to piss people off, not clear his family name and not to help his brothers case of 2nd degree murder charges. It’s either to vent his true feeling of black people or to get help with the future lawsuits…mark my words, the whole Zimmerman family will try to sue.

    • Jun says:

      It takes two to tango

      Why can’t Junior publicly acknowledge that his brother and him are bloodclot liars? Why is it so hard for them to acknowledge that his brother could be a scheming murderer who stalked a kid and killed the kid? Why does Tracy have to show him any sympathy? Who the hell is Junior?

      IMO, I think he purposely does stuff like that to rile up a response because he is a scheming bastard, much like his brother

      • grahase says:

        Most families would shy away from publicity when a family member killed someone and the event has had so much publicity. This family goes on National television. Then they whine when being attacked for their opinions and spouting the lying murderers lies as though they contained truth.

    • Xena says:

      Just goes to show that Junior can be provoked because he is trying to use provocation in his scheme.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      As a parent, the taunt about school suspension is quite annoying, but it is a clear example of how low Fogen’s family and friends are willing to stoop to defend him. If Fogen were truly innocent the evidence would speak for itself and there would be no reason to nyah-nyah-nyah in public this way.

      • Jun says:

        Fogenhats, Junior & Senior are the type of people who like to try and talk down about other people’s perceived negative traits yet they have a huge closet of skeletons they have tried to close and the whole public knows it too

        What about Fogenhats’ molestion and attempted rape of his cousin?

        Why did Junior & Senior allow it to continue?

        Why are Junior & Senior both lying repeatedly on national television?

        Why was Junior allegedly fired? That is the same as a suspension, so that means Junior would attack others violently too according to his reasoning

        I could go on all day about them being jerks but whatever

        I hope they try that stuff in court because if the defendant opens the door, it can be done back to him

    • Malisha says:

      Junior wanting Tracy Martin to feel sorry for him is typical psychopath stuff; it’s psychopath stock in trade. THEY are the victims of everything that ever goes wrong. It’s laughable.

      Let it go. Junior can cry today and cry until the day he dies about the terrible lack of sympathy he and little bro had to endure.

      Frankly, my dears, I don’t give a damn.

      • grahase says:

        I would like to know what the public needs to feel sorry for. No one would even know what Junior looks like had he not put himself out there. How DARE he ask for sympathy from ANYONE let alone the family of the murdered child. Outrageous. Junior is just trying to stay in the media by provoking people. He is just laying in wait for someone with money to call him out for his comments. Disgraceful example of a human being.

  16. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    Ugh….Where in the heck do these people come from?? Sometimes I just shake my head and move along, but other times like this I get frustrated at their repetitive nonsense. Someone new asked:

    What is the rebuttal of the talking point regarding the (alleged?) lack of Zimmerman DNA on T.M.?

    Their answer was:

    First: why would it even be relevant? In what context, or for what argument, would it matter? Multiple eye-witnesses prove Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating him. Multiple eye-witnesses prove that Zimmerman was battered and bloodied. Photographic and medical-record evidence prove that Zimmerman was assaulted.

    Second: Zimmerman’s DNA was found on Martin’s person – on his hoodie.

    Third: Martin’s body, aside from the underside of his fingernails (a test done to determine if the person being tested exhibited physical evidence of self-defense), was not tested for Zimmerman’s DNA.

    Fourth: the rainy conditions, wet grass, and handling of Martin’s body in the aftermath of the shooting (especially the life-saving efforts taken by emergency personnel) would have left little-to-no DNA to be found on Martin’s person, especially his hands.

    And then there was this comment from the person over there who claims to know Fogen and claimed maybe a month or two ago that they were deposed…wonder who they are if those claims are true…my guess is Osterman’s wife or Shellie.

    Hi, Richard. There is more DNA testing to be done and has been done that the prosecution has not bothered to put in their discovery. There was some DNA on the bottom of one of T.M.’s shirt sleeve I believe. It is the unidentified DNA that needs to be investigated farther also.

    Love how they repeat the same bs when someone asks about the lack of DNA and act like they are experts of the laws and have such great knowledge in forensics and know Fogen well…when in reality they know squat. I’m not claiming to either, but I definately have way more common sense.

    • Jun says:

      There were not multiple witnesses who stated that Trayvon was on top of the defendant beating him

      There was one person, who stated in one of his four testimonies, and that is witness 6

      His final statement is he was not sure what he saw and he says he did not hear any hitting or striking noises

      Forensics on DNA and blood analysis and the physics is hard science and is a witness of itself that never lies, while people can and will

      They dont test areas where there is nothing to test, and if there is nothing, they scrape the fingernails as a last resort because there is nothing there to test

      It also was not raining that bad, and if the physics were to match their claims, the same should have happened to the back of Zimmernuts’ jacket and back of his head, yet none of his blood washed off the back of his head… hmmm

      The simple fact remains, DNA & Blood can only come off with bleach and there was not enough washing going on for any blood to wash off his hands completely because, the kid was dying and had no ability to wash his hands or wash his clothes. It is not that easy to clean off DNA as they think it is.

      • Xena says:

        Forensics on DNA and blood analysis and the physics is hard science and is a witness of itself that never lies, while people can and will

        Absolutely! I remember being inside a courtroom one day during a hearing in a civil case, and the attorney continued to say, “The documents do not lie.”

        Forensics and physical evidence is what is going to win this case. The physical evidence includes that GZ did not spread Trayvon’s arms out like he said he did. So why did he lie? I hope that the EMT’s retained the material they used to clean GZ’s head, face and hands and that it’s tested.

      • Jun says:

        All the evidence will come together to paint a picture

        The only part we have solved thus far, due to only what can be shown to the public is the targeting, the stalking, the confrontation, and that the defendant even attacked unprovoked first by lunging at Trayvon…

        as for the actual struggle, physics and science will be helping us determine what happened

      • grahase says:

        Actually, it was raining really hard.

      • grahase says:

        Where does it show that the murderer lunged at Trayvon Martin. How has that been solved.

      • Jun says:

        witness 8 and 18

        if you combine both their testimonies together, it shows that the defendant, on top of stalking and pursuing the kid, confronted,, then attacked the kid, and threatened him

      • grahase says:
        December 27, 2012 at 1:50 am

        Actually, it was raining really hard.

        No ,it wasn’t raining really hard,drizzling.

      • SearchingMind says:

        @ Grahase

        You asked:

        “Where does it show that the murderer lunged at Trayvon Martin. How has that been solved”.

        Answer: DeeDee stated that Trayvon was “bumped”.

        You stated:

        “Actually, it was raining really hard”.


        Actually, the photos of Zimmerman taken moments after the killing are as clear as the blue sky. No single drop of rain on Zimmerman’s head and face.

      • grahase says:

        searching mind. If you go to bcclist, someone has taken the time to outline the rain pattern for the time periods of the incident. It was raining hard during that time. When the photo was taken, he apparently, according to the murderer and some witnesses, had just come from a tussle in the grass Yet, in the photo, he appears dry. Maybe you can explain why this would be. I do not know aout rain in Florida. I do know where I live, when it rains one gets wet. If I were to roll around the ground, I would be covered in mud and grass.

        It was raining hard, and there are no witnesses that the murderer lunged at Trayvon Martin. Sorry guys and gals, I do not enjoy embellishments.A bump does not a lunge make.

        • blushedbrown says:

          @Searching Mind

          Here is the link that grahase is talking about

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yes, it was raining hard, a few people, I’ve noted, see the .25 inches listed and don’t realize that the data is for “inches per hour”, not inches per day.

          Ah, here it is:
          [this is in inches per hour, as you can see the rain was constantly increasing since the time TM left 711, and was even heavier when TM left the mail shed, than it was when he stopped to shelter]

          6:42 0.03

          6:47 0.04

          6:52 0.04

          6:57 0.04

          7:02 0.04

          7:07 0.05

          7:13 0.07

          7:18 0.08

          7:23 0.09

          7:28 0.09

          7:33 0.09
          6:32 0.00

          6:37 0.02

          6:42 0.03

          6:47 0.04

          6:52 0.04

          6:57 0.04

          7:02 0.04

          7:07 0.05

          7:13 0.07

          7:18 0.08

          7:23 0.09

          7:28 0.09

          7:33 0.09

      • Jun says:

        It is not an embellishment, when that is what happened

        do you know the definition of “lunge”?

        In fact, it could even be argued, that the defendant was lunging at the victim for that 15 minute period

        The fact remains, on top of stalking the kid, and chasing him, once he caught up, he confronted the kid, and then lunged at him, unprovoked, hence witness 18 placing the defendant as the aggressor in the confrontation, and witness 8 stating she heard a “bump”, causing Trayvon to drop his phone onto the grass, and Trayvon yelling “GET OFF”

        You can also hear Trayvon yelling “Get Off” again on the witness 11 911 call at the very beginning

        I also do not believe it was raining that bad because like Searching stated, look at the defendant’s pictures…

        what makes him not appear wet at all?

        How come none of the blood on him rained off of him?

        Those questions are rhetorical

      • grahase says:

        As a matter of fact, I DO know the definition of lunge. If I did not, I would NOT have commented on the word. There is no evidence whatsoever that the murderer lunged at Trayvon Martin that I have seen. Perhaps you could provide a link or a description where that PROOF may be.

        • cielo62 says:

          I think that Dee Dees observation of Martins conversation with GZ shows that GZ did indeed “lunge” towards Martin. Martin tells him to get off. That shows lunging forward to grab Martin.

          Sent from my iPod

      • grahase says:

        Jun, Jun, Jun — please go to bcclist to find the rain and wind pattern for the period of the event. Because his clothes appear to be dry in a photograph is not proof that it was not raining.

      • Jun says:

        The defendant did lunge at the victim, since the beginning of targeting the victim

        1) First Fogenhats goes “Shit, he’s running” then proceeds to get out of his car and lunges towards the victim

        2) Once Fogenhats caught up with the victim, he confronted the victim and then lunged at the victim. Why else would Trayvon yell “Get Off” and his phone was caused to be dropped onto the grass, as heard by witness 8? Witness 18 places Fogenhats as the aggressor and the person confronting the other. If you do not like that word, then let us say he went forward at the victim aggressively, because that is what he did. That is the only action I can foresee that would cause someone to yell “Get Off” because a stranger had jumped on you or grabbed you, and to do so, you have to go forward aggressively

        So what exactly do you want to describe it as then?

        He was pointed out by the eye and ear witness 18 that the defendant was the aggressor and the person confronting and witness 8 heard a bump, a phone fall onto grass, and then heard Trayvon yelling “Get off”…?

        It sounds to me like the defendant went at the victim…

        • I do not believe the prosecution has to prove that the defendant lunged at Trayvon Martin. The defendant was the aggressor and Martin would have been justified in using force to defend himself.

          The issue the jury must resolve is whether the prosecution can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not reasonably in fear of suffering imminent death or serious bodily injury when he killed Trayvon Martin.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Those holes in Trayvon’s clothing, aren’t only going to tell us that GZ was holding onto Trayvon, but they’re also going to tell us where Trayvon’s hands were. Because, if Trayvon raises his hands, his clothing will rise with them, thus GZ will have to pull those garments down harder, stretching them further, to position them as they were when the shot was fired.

            With Trayvon’s hands to his sides and offering no resistance to GZ. GZ continues to hold onto Trayvon’s clothing and pulls them down to the side, in an effort to get his hand out of the way of his gun. Instead of backing away from his helpless victim shrieking in terror. GZ fires a shot into Trayvon’s body at center mass. Then tells us he didn’t think he’d hit him???????? At point blank range he could miss? What kind of lessons was Osterman giving him? Whatever they were, if this is the result, GZ clearly should not have a ccwp.
            In fact he shouldn’t be allowed to handle anything sharp at all.

      • Jun says:

        Here is another definition of “lunge”

        Sounds to me, that I used the correct phrasing, that the defendant lunged at the victim

      • Rachael says:

        Not sure how you get lunge out of that. I have to agree with grahase here. A lunge is a sudden forward motion one might use to say suddenly lunge forward with a knife and stab someone or grab someone. According to your definition: A sudden forward thrust of the body, typically with an arm outstretched to attack someone or seize something – there is no proof that anyone lunged at anyone. GZ may well have lunged at Trayvon with the gun and threatened him, but there is no way to know if he lunged at him. Nor do I see how it matters, other than to say that there is no evidence that he lunged at him. Although he could have – it would be speculation – and again, doesn’t change anything whether he did or not.

      • Jun says:

        Like I said, the defendant was on Trayvon somehow, hence Trayvon yelling “Get Off”. Get off signifies for someone to “get off”. For the defendant to have gotten on Trayvon, he would have had to lunge at the victim.

      • Jun says:

        I dont know exactly what type of attack the defendant used exactly but this is how witness 18 & 8 put it:

        18 – I saw two men arguing and the older man was the one controlling the conversation and confrontation and she could tell by the sound of the voices and the tone of voices… she then attributes screaming to that of a young boy

        8 – Trayvon got tired and the defendant caught up to the victim and confronted him. Trayvon then asked why the defendant was following him. The defendant yelled out what are you doing here, very angrily. Deedee then hears a bump or push noise and Trayvon’s phone hits the grass (drops onto it). Deedee than hears Trayvon tell the defendant to “Get off” him in an urgent and scared manner.

        It sounds to me by the testimony that the defendant confronted and then attacked the victim. It sounds like he lunged at the victim according to the testimony, hence the victim yelling to the defendant to “get off him”. The defendant went at the victim aggressively in a form of an attack, where he was on the victim and the victim wanted him to get off. The final pull on the victim’s shirt towards the defendant, by the defendant, signifies that the defendant still would not let the victim go and be at liberty and then he shot the victim in the chest.

  17. Rachael says:
    • Xena says:

      So, Junior is still on his racism rant. From his letter;

      Research would also show Al Sharpton (at Sanford city hall meeting) and his contemporaries: Crump, Jackson(Natalie/Jesse), NAACP, and members of the Congressional Black Caucus on numerous occasions repeating the falsehood of George being told not to get out of his truck and that then George “got out anyway”.

      This is not a lie. There’s two ways of perceiving it. One, it’s a rule of NW. GZ was captain of his NW. He knew or had good reason to know that the rules prevented him from getting out of his truck and following Trayvon.

      Two, Junior argues based on process of elimination. Why should the dispatcher need to tell GZ not to get out of his truck? The dispatcher didn’t tell GZ to get out of his truck, either. Junior presents GZ as a child that the dispatcher had to tell how many sheets of toilet paper to use to wipe his butt. Common sense says that an adult calling in a suspicious person using the descriptions that GZ applied to Trayvon, would not think for a moment to get out of their truck and follow the suspicious individual.

      Junior’s mission is not to advocate for his brother. Rather, it’s a personal mission of using the media to wage his personal war against Blacks.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Xena- I just read Junior’s letter. It is so clear that he obviously hates Blacks. He is the one that won’t let it go and it’s almost as if he is trying to goad Black people through his writings. He does this on purpose and will eventually run into someone that has read his ramblings and I don’t think they will be all too nice…and it will have nothing to do with his brother or Trayvon. Is that why he is doing this?

        Junior has bothered me since he came into this. What is his true agenda????

        • Xena says:

          Xena- I just read Junior’s letter. It is so clear that he obviously hates Blacks.

          Yes, totally obvious. He conveys anger that Blacks would be in positions and with knowledge to gain national attention of his brother’s behavior. What he fails to acknowledge is that he and his dad are responsible for putting their family in the spotlight. They should have remained estranged.

          He does this on purpose and will eventually run into someone that has read his ramblings and I don’t think they will be all too nice…and it will have nothing to do with his brother or Trayvon. Is that why he is doing this?

          Junior isn’t worth getting into trouble for. Shutting him up won’t change one thing for GZ.

          Junior has bothered me since he came into this. What is his true agenda????

          Remember that Junior didn’t come out for a second round until after the Ostermans’ book was published. Can we believe that there is deep seated envy over the idea that anyone would make money off GZ’s situation and not the Zimmermans?

          The love of money, envy, anger, and racial bigotry is what fuels Junior’s agenda.

      • Jun says:

        He’s really annoying

        He’s one to talk about people lying, yet, repeatedly lies himself, all the time, and complains of other people’s lies, when they have not lied at all

        & none of his points make any bloodclot sense

        The whole point of asking him not to stalk and pursue the kid was just that, but Zimmernuts disregarded the orders, and continued pursuing the kid anyways, on top of threatening, attacking and killing the kid

        I do not get how he is trying to convince people he is not a racist, yet he groups all black people’s perspectives into one pool, and also acts as if people from other cultures that are not black automatically do not care about the issues of another race of people

        I can’t wait till he has testify under oath so they can slap obstruction and perjury charges on his lying behind

        • Xena says:

          I can’t wait till he has testify under oath so they can slap obstruction and perjury charges on his lying behind

          I seriously doubt that the State calls him as a witness. He has nothing other than hearsay — what GZ told him. That’s all.

    • Jun says:

      What part of the

      Police “Are you following him?”

      Zimmernuts “Yeah”

      Police ” We do not need you to do that”

      does Junior not understand?

      • Xena says:

        @Jun. Junior reminds me of some people I met when I worked at the courthouse. They make it everyone else’s responsibility to tell them everything.

        When the dispatcher said “We don’t need you to do that” it was for GZ’s benefit to keep him safe. The same sounds that prompted the dispatcher to ask GZ if he was following, continue after GZ says “Okay” until he says “He ran.”

        Also note, GZ and Junior continue to say that GZ stopped following when saying “Okay,” but they do not say that GZ stopped LOOKING for Trayvon. Neither does either address why GZ changed his plans on where to meet the cops and wanted them to call him for his location. So of course, based on GZ’s request, it is reasonably presumed that GZ was not neither had plans to return to his truck. That gives the right to those looking at the entire picture to say that GZ hunted, or continued to pursue Trayvon.

      • Jun says:

        The guy seems obsessed with doing evil for his brother

        The guy reminds me of a character on CSI NY named Shane Casey (Junior that is)

        When he stated on Twitter that it was his life duty to destroy some black lawyers’ and civil rights activists’ lives, he was not kidding, but he has been unsuccessful because most people can see him as the piece of crap that he is

        But if we are to theorize on Junior’s fantasy, Junior claims that Fogenhats stopped stalking Trayvon when Fogenhats said OK…

        That is only about 20 or 30 seconds after he began the chase, and still over a minute left on the phone call…

        so why did the defendant not make it back to his car?

        If the defendant was intent on not stalking and pursuing the kid anymore, why was he found so far away from his vehicle, where the dead body was?

        Why was he seen South down the back pathway?

        His answer does not even fit into the whole picture and big picture of the whole incident

        I do not even know why the media gives that idiot any air time… all it shows to people who are normal is that he is a scheming bastard much like his brother

    • whonoze says:

      Late Entry Wins Delusion of the Year!

      RZjr. wants/expects SYMPATHY from Tracy Martin!


      • Jun says:

        Sympathy for what exactly?

        Tracy will show love and respect to another human being, but I do not see anything beyond that..

        I also do not see why he should feel sorry, Junior brought all his bad attention upon himself by publicly lying to millions of people and saying racist things and making phony apologies in monotone voice

      • Xena says:

        RZjr. wants/expects SYMPATHY from Tracy Martin!


        Yes, because Junior evidently believes that all Black male teens suspended from school deserved to be killed. To say it another way, Junior believes that Trayvon’s life was worthless, and if only Tracy would agree, Junior will recognize him as being more superior than other Blacks who support “thugs.” You know, like Tracy needs Junior’s validation of his intelligence.

    • grahase says:

      Noticed on Twitter a response to Juniors letter from Cherokee Native:

    • Two sides to a story says:

      More fodder for the defense. Keep talkin’, Jr.!

  18. I propose that if we haven’t donated in a while, we should support the blog this week.

  19. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< following with tail held high!

  20. bettykath says:

    What were we talking about?

  21. SpecialladyT says:


  22. SpecialladyT says:

    Hi Guys, I have been reading and reading.. WOW! Not posting much, just absorbing. I am happy to see that Fred is okay!! Keep up the great work, you guys are great!

    Happy Holidays!!

  23. colin black says:

    Hurrah Santa answered my wish a new thread for Crimbo /

  24. Trained Observer says:

    How does one register to the Leatherman blog? (Or have I just inadvertently don it?)

    • Trained Observer says:

      Sorry, done it. Hopefully Ms. Fulton and Mr. Martin are finding some measure of peace having gotten through their first Christmas without Trayvon.

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