Monday, December 17, 2012
After reviewing and considering the remarks by Zhickel, Grbsb, Jun and Whonoze (AKA: Treeslaw), I am going to put on my judge’s robe and issue the following ruling:
I find that neither photograph was altered and, therefore, both photographs are authentic and admissible at trial.
This is not a bad result for the State, as you will soon see.
In effect and by design, because I set it up this way, we have had our own internet version of a battle-of-experts pretrial hearing regarding the admissibility of the two digital photographs taken at the scene of the homicide by Officer Wagner (face) and the neighbor named Jon (back of the head).
The legal issue was whether the photos were authentic (i.e., originals or authentic reproductions) or fraudulent reproductions (i.e., altered).
Zhickle (nice to see your fonts again) and Grbsb in effect testified as experts for the defense while Jun and Whonoze testified as experts for the State.
There has to be a winner and on balance I decided for the defense because giving them what they want on this issue does not hurt the State’s case and I did not want to give them an appellate issue that might result in reversing the defendant’s conviction.
In other words, I am thinking strategically, or big picture, rather than focusing on the relative merits of each argument.
I predict Judge Nelson will reach the same conclusion for the same reason.
Just as I would do, I predict she will permit the prosecution to use their experts to acknowledge the distortions in the photos and explain why they are present, just as our four experts did. Such factors will go to the weight, or value of the evidence, rather than its admissibility.
The jury will decide how much weight to give to those photos. The greater the distortion, the less weight they are likely to be given.
The photos taken at the station house also will be admitted. Those photos together with expert testimony from one or more trauma surgeons should establish to a reasonable medical certainty that the defendant’s injuries, including his claimed but unverified “broken nose” were minor and inconsistent with the defendant’s narrative claiming how he got them.
The absence of any detectable trace of blood on the cuffs and lower sleeves of Trayvon Martin’s two sweatshirts and the absence of the defendant’s DNA in Trayvon Martin’s fingernail clippings also do not support the defendant’s narrative, as one would expect detectable amounts of the defendant’s blood and DNA in both areas. That is, despite the rain, detectable amounts of blood and DNA would have been present, if the defendant’s narrative were true.
In addition, the pattern of blood flow as depicted in the photo taken at the scene, before an EMT cleaned his head, shows blood flowing in a downward direction toward and curling around the lower end of his ears, which does not support the defendant’s claim that he was lying on his back. Instead, it shows that his head was upright and leaning forward, which is consistent with the defendant straddling Trayvon Martin, as several witnesses described him doing (Selma and the teacher).
These photos do not help the defense case. Considered together with the physical evidence, they appear to not only rule out the possibility that the defendant was reasonably in fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury, they also appear to rule out Trayvon Martin as the person who caused those wounds.
Given some minor scratches to his face, it appears more likely that the defendant ran into a tree branch in the dark bumping his nose and fell down bumping his head on some object, possibly a sprinkler head or cover, or possibly the edge of the cement sidewalk or a sign. Whatever caused them, it was not likely to have been Trayvon because there is no evidence that Trayvon Martin hit the defendant.
Even if he did hit him, I think the jury will find that he was legally justified to do so in self-defense because the defendant followed him first in his vehicle and then on foot into a dark area where he confronted and attempted to detain him without ever identifying himself, contrary to the police dispatcher’s admonition and the Neighborhood Watch rules.
I hope this exercise was helpful to a better understanding of hearings on motions in limine, battles between experts and the strategic considerations that inform judicial thinking.
Thanks to all of you for participating and please give me some feedback regarding whether this worked for you as a learning experience.
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
I actually believe the reason Tim Smith was first on the scene is that he knew that Fogen was going to “bring in his suspect” that evening. I think Taaffe knew, Osterman knew, Shellie knew, and Tim Smith (at least) knew that 2/26/2012 was the day that Fogen was going to bring in his suspect. He had tried to do it on 2/2/2012 and failed; on 2/7/2012 “the suspect who got away” was arrested, and on 2/26/2012, he was going to succeed. Smith was on his way to the neighborhood before being dispatched. That’s my guess.
The FBI may be able to figure out what happened and they may not. Lee might have undone all evidence of what really took place that night before the FBI’s involvement began. I suspect him of having gotten rid of the notes or memos relating to the 3/1/2012 HOA meeting and the complaints previously phoned in by residents about Fogen’s “patrolling” conduct. There definitely is the hint of shredding about this case.
The first FOIA showed that the SPD report to the Miami Herald about “one other shooting” at RTL was a flat out lie. Obviously the rest of the “public information” handed out by that den of thieves cannot be trusted either. We will probably never know the true extent of the corruption and cover-up activity in that department.
On thing I would like to say — we should revisit “The Christopher Serino files.” Since there were three (3) drafts of his memo before the capias issued on 3/13/2012, and the first two (2) of those drafts suggested a charge of Murder-2 against Fogen, my own assessment of what Serino was doing has changed. My belief was that Serino was reluctantly agreeing to go along with letting Fogen go, but he was too smart, after having spoken with Tracy Martin, to believe that there would not be an enormous public stink about it. So I believed he was so clever he had thought of a way to satisfy both the public demand for justice AND the police department demand for protection of the shooter: the statute of the Florida law that would be used for a cop who had accidentally killed a suspect during the commission of a crime. There had been a Florida case where an officer was charged with that crime, convicted, and then the conviction was overturned specifically because the deceased person had not actually been engaged in any crime so the statute did not apply. In other words, if Fogen pled to or was convicted of the charge Serino ended up suggesting in the capias, he would have been either freed when the charge was dismissed or freed when the appeal declared that he had been tried under the wrong statute — and THEN he could not be retried because of double jeopardy. In fact, Fogen is unlucky that the capias was NOT followed through to the end, because that would appear to be a very devious but utterly undeniable way of forever liberating him from the charges.
Serino was not actually trying to do that, by hook OR by crook. Serino knew that Fogen had committed murder and he was trying to get him charged with murder. It is my guess that Lee and Wolfinger were the two who prevented it. I believe they should both be charged with obstruction of justice or with the federal charge under 18 USC 242 of deprivation of civil rights under color of state law. They ought to be able to socialize with Fogen once he’s incarcerated; maybe all three of them can deal with their addiction to power. Do they have Powermongers Anonymous meetings in prison?
I dont think so because Zimmernuts is not a cop, he only pretends to be, when he is on his “patrols” but he lacks authority in real life. I feel the prosecution or the cops at the time, simply did not want to do the job or perhaps there is truth to the not enough evidence. Trayvon was not engaged in any crime, therefore, there was no need or necessity to follow or pursue the kid, let alone terrorize and threaten the kid’s life so that Fogenhats could live out his fantasy.
The fact that the body of Martin was found 40 ft. away from where Zimmerman said he was attacked was proof. The SPD is corrupt and simply decided to sweep this under the rug.
HOW MUCH IS TRAYVON MARTIN WORTH?
@ Xena et al
“From the Miami Herald;
“My guy is innocent and the evidence strongly supports that,” O’Mara said in an interview earlier this month. “Someone should drop $1 million in his defense fund account so he can get a real defense. He’s been put through the wringer.”
Very impressive indeed. O’Mara goes from: ‘the arrest and indictment of Zimmerman is politically motivated; all the evidence support Zimmerman’s story of self-defense; Zimmerman should therefore not have been arrested, let alone charged with any crime’ to ‘I need ‘1.000.000. USD’ to provide “real defense”! if all the evidence support Zimmerman’s claims, etc., what does O’Mara need a million dollar (+ the already received 340.000,00. USD) for? The ‘Zimmerman-legal-defense-fund’ has in fact turned into a business enterprise designed to generate economic revenues for Zimmerman, his lawyers and their family members. This is a shame. “Not even Baez could not have dared do this. But when the dead kid is a Negro, I guess everything is possible” – says, of all persons, my dad (!) (the old man knew all along that something terrible happened to Trayvon but could not admit it openly). I used to be of the opinion that O’Mara, while not an extremely bright lawyer, is a good and decent man. I have changed my mind. I think O’Mara’s is getting dangerously pretentious, overly avaricious and (potentially) corrupt. Greed may have indeed become the prime-mover in the ‘Zimmerman-legal-defense-fund-saga’ and may have started to fatally impair O’Mara’s ability to make reasonable evaluation of the strength of the case against Zimmerman and provide him (Zimmerman) with effective legal counsel (something I actually consider good news).
Searching Mind- I also scratched my head at that comment. If the evidence is so “clear”, why would he need much money at all? So far , MOM has not done any serious review of the forensic evidence at all. He will be totally blown out of the water when the trial starts. Not that I care. But as a defense lawyer, he sucks. > >
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Now that the supremacist know that GZ isn’t white, not another penny shall they get. The simple process of elimination lets one figure out which crowd the money came from. It wasn’t from the “gun nuts” because the gun issues are still there and intact.
It wasn’t from GZ supporters, because they’re still on the boards and giving nothing at all.
It has to be from the racists who lost their will to support GZ, when he revealed that he wasn’t Lilly white! That’s when the money ceased to arrive.
Hey, MOM, you said you’d weren’t going to accept money from racists so now’s the time to give it all back. lol
Thing is Ive read that both iunior z an the defendant are addopted from the Sister of the woman whom now claims to be the Mother
If this is true then either Pa Pa Zim put it in where he shouldnt have bin..Or he is not the bio father of any of the brothers..Also brings into question of the Cousin alleged molestation.If he was indeed adopted where they cousins by blood.Or perhaps even closer related ?
whonose..A postscript:
According to Smith’s written report he did not speak to GZ during their ride to the police station. If you trust that account, I think his family owns a bridge in NYC they’d like to sell you.
They have to lie an say no verbal exchanges took place..As what was disscussed would not be for public ears or anyones ears..PS Xena yes I noticed those two trees at the cut throughs besides the houses…
Some facts:
1. Ofc. Ricardo Ayala was dispatched to respond to GZ’s NEN call.
2. Ofc. Tim Smith was the first officer to arrive at the scene following W11’s 911 call.
3. SPD chief Bill Lee went to the crime scene.
4. SAO Norm Wolfinger went to the crime scene.
It’s been said that it is unusual for a Police Chief and a State’s Attorney to appear at a crime scene. There has been speculation that RZSr. had connections, and pulled some strings to get these high officials to the scene. But, in light of Malisha’s assessment that GZ and Smith were both part of Bill Lee’s ‘posse’ in terms of inter-departmental politics at SPD, I wonder…
Some questions:
1. Why/how did Smith get to RATL before Ayala?
2. Who called Bill Lee to apprise him there was “a situation”?
3. Who called Norm Wolfinger and initiated his involvement?
4. Who picked Smith to escort GZ back to SPD? (it wasn’t Chris Serino, as GZ had been taken from the scene before Serino arrived.)
Some speculation:
1. Smith hears over the police radio that his buddy GZ has called in a suspicious person report and decides, on his own initiative to head over to RATL to see what’s what. So he’s already on the way there when the 911 call comes in, enabling him to beat Ayala to the scene.
2. As Smith arrests someone he knows, someone he knows is “a friend of Bill Lee,” he realizes that this is not the usual shooting, but is “a situation” and he calls Chief Lee.
3. Lee, looking for some cover, calls Wolfinger, and convinces him to come to the scene, due to the potential gravity of the case
4. GZ knew he had a chance to walk on this shooting the second he saw a familiar face coming to arrest him. That’s why he declared, “I shot him” as soon as Smith arrived, to clue Smith in to what was happening. Lord knows what kind of whispered conversation the two might have had if JonW13 had not been standing there, and had Smith and GZ not known they were also being observed by Selma Mora and Mary Cutcher. (Not only had the two women spoken to him, but he would have seen them continue to watch him. Their silhouettes are clearly visible in one of the crime scene photos, as they stand in their back doorway, backlit by the interior lights of their home.)
A call for action:
If I had subpoena power (say, if I was Eric Holder), I would supoena the complete communication records of the SPD from 2/26/12, and also the personal cell phone records of Smith, Lee, and Wolfinger. I’d want to know who called who, and when. I doubt anyone from the Federal Justice Department is reading this, but just in case, could you do that, to try to help getting to the bottom of this sewer?
A postscript:
According to Smith’s written report he did not speak to GZ during their ride to the police station. If you trust that account, I think his family owns a bridge in NYC they’d like to sell you.
Whonoze, they have sold that bridge already. Apparently title transferred to the Outhouse on 2/27/2012. But the property value has dropped since that date.
Folks, why don’t we go over to the “Cyber Bullies” thread that only has 112 comments on it, and just continue our on-line conversation there until Professor puts up a new thread that takes less time to load? I’m going over there to post something now so it comes up on the “follow” ntoices. 🙂 ❓
LOL! Invade!
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Usually people who molest others have been molested themselves.
That’s true. For a child to repeat behavior of sexual molestation on other children however, while knowing it’s wrong, has an emotion buried in it other than, and maybe opposite to, shame and hurt. An 8 yr old getting pleasure from molesting a cousin younger than him displays a certain mental dysfunction that some psychologist would probably pay to study.
They’re getting into control of something that they experienced that deprived them of the proper amount of control of their own lives. It’s basically “the story of Fogen’s life,” whether or not he molested his cousin, whether or not he was himself molested.
A child who is placed in a situation where he is out of control of his own emotions, feels shame and guilt, and is very much overpowered without being able to understand the situation (thus emotionally overwhelmed) will often spend the rest of his childhood and even most of the rest of his life doing maladjusted forms of “instant replay” to get into control of the experience by all the wrong methods. (I think the only RIGHT method is probably to come to some sort of realization that it happened, it cannot be unhappened, it doesn’t need to be unhappened, and life can go on anyway.)
Look at Fogen’s need for control, expressed first so horribly by him and then echoed stupidly and meanly by Taaffe and various family members repeatedly. Why was Trayvon so wrong in everything he ever did all his life? Because Fogen wasn’t in control. There’s Taaffe saying Trayvon took the wrong route home. Dave says he had his reasons for taking the “wrong route” home; will Taaffe agree? No. All Trayvon’s reasons were also wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. Because Taaffe, Fogen, whoever, would have had him do something different, his doing whatever he chose to do was WRONG. These are control freaks. They are trying to get back into control of something that they will never in their lives get into control of. Look at the mess in Taaffe’s life. An old abandoned wreck whose family has restraining orders out against him, who mutters around his own neighborhood carrying on and complaining. People are still stealing? Terrible. Why doesn’t he get out there and do good Neighborhood Watch work so he can begin to control the crime in the neighborhood then? No? Out of control, huh? Still talking about how Trayvon took the wrong route home on 2/26/2012.
Fogen himself: Couln’t control the way Singleton and Serino were seeing things. Kept telling them, “No-ho-oooo,” when they asked if he was pursuing Trayvon Martin. Damn, he had already told them, why were they asking again? “No-ho-ooo!” With that little smirk, I can bet.
Couldn’t control the way the media portrayed him. Bad media, Bad media. Only report what I SAY!
Now Fogen won’t even be in control of his bedtime and when he can take his meds. Now he will only get phone calls when somebody else gives him a chance. And I think Shellie is sick and tired of his control and she has flown the coop.
I found something on Wiki with references:
“In the etiology of child-on-child sexual abuse, young children who have not matured sexually are incapable of knowing about specific sex acts without an external source.[4][5][6] Consequently, children who initiate or solicit overtly sexual acts with other children most often have been sexually victimized by an adult beforehand,[4][5][7] or by another child who was in turn abused by an adult.[8][9] … In some instances, the perpetrating child was exposed to pornography or repeatedly witnessed sexual activity of adults at a very young age, as this also can be considered a form of child sexual abuse.”
An interesting statistic, that may be OT, about child sexual abuse and incest. Statistically, more of the boys who are molested become molesters, while statistically, more of the girls who are molested become victims. This includes women who become prostitutes (again, trying to get into control of the experience that cannot be retroactively controlled) (and having the illusion that because they’re arranging the sexual encounters with the johns and collecting money for them, they are somehow “in control” of them) and women who end up in jail or prison (much higher proportion of them have been molested as children than in the general population).
My theory is that the purpose the society in general has in protecting and even promoting incest is to create a class of exploitable women. Since our society had to give up the legalized exploitation of a whole underclass (as a result of emancipation, “reconstruction” and civil rights), its need for an unspoken underclass of exploitable individuals became more pronounced.
I’ll get off this soapbox now. Fogen’s cousin’s experience of him as a child is just as irrelevant as Osterman’s belief that Fogen had a minor army of African American friends, except that the cousin’s story makes sense, is internally consistent and is probably true. On the other hand, I have to believe that if the Black community in Seminole County never knew Fogen’s name until he killed one of their kids on a “punk-hunting adventure.”
It doesn’t matter. Fogen profiled, chased and killed Trayvon Martin with ill will, malice and a depraved mind.
My bet us in the step-mom Gladys, who never liked GZ anyway.
Sent from my iPod
Take a look at Trayvon in the 7-11 video. He has a long hoody on. He has pants that hang low. If he were to have his hands in his waistband, he would have to lift the hoody in order to put his hand in his waist band. He would also have to have extra long arms. Watch as he puts his hands into his pocket for money. How could Fogen see Trayvon put his hand in his waistband. Just plain stupid. If anything, he may have put his hands in the pouch to keep his hands warm. Waistband!! Hilarious.
“Hands on their waistband” is cop- speak for “fearing for my life from a hidden gun”. GZ was once again pretends to be a cop and tries to use the jargon that usually lets cops get away with murder. But he’s not w cop, had no business following the “suspect” and thus no reason to fear for his life from a waistband!
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What a nice Christmas present for Junior. (snark)
Zimmernuts Fogenhats the 3rd seems to scheme everyone, including his family
I think there are skeletons within that family closet and some blackmail going on in the back theatre
@Jun, you mean skeletons such as why an 8 yr old would sexually molest his cousin and know to tell her that if anyone asks what they’re doing, to say “Laying down”? I do see an association between Junior being gay, how their mom handled that, and GZ sexually molesting at such a young age while apparently, knowing it was wrong.
That is one of the skeletons in the closet that is being unearthed
I believe there is more than the surface than what the family of the defendant are trying to present
It would make sense why they are fighting so hard to portray the “wholesome family America” image
as that may be the prerequisite as the defendant may be blackmailing by threatening to unearth it
Maybe not blackmail per se, Jun, but I think you’re onto something. The skeletons may come out of the closet, and they want to keep that door shut. So GZ himself may not need to say anything because they all know what’s what.
Interesting video. Thanks for all your work.
Brilliant! I laughed so hard I nearly turned into a you-know-what. Tee hee!
From the Miami Herald;
“My guy is innocent and the evidence strongly supports that,” O’Mara said in an interview earlier this month. “Someone should drop $1 million in his defense fund account so he can get a real defense. He’s been put through the wringer.”
Well, there we have it! O’Mara has stated that without a million dollars, he cannot provide GZ with a real defense. I suppose that means he’s been providing an unreal defense, such as arguing issues to please GZ’s supporters so they will send more money.
They had better hurry up — only 3 months to ready GZ for his immunity hearing. He needs about $334,000 a month for a real defense, and that doesn’t include the $27,000 that he owes to the security firm.
Omara is treating the media like a letter to Santa
he is hoping for a million dollars LMAO
And like Santa (who doesn’t exist) will not give it to him.
Sent from my iPod
LOL@Cielo62. Yep. Hope that GZ and ShelLIE got the other security company to do their Christmas shopping for them before they were fired. But then, all of the Zimmerrmans cry broke so there probably was no gift exchange.
Wait !! What do you mean Santa doesn’t exist ?? I’ll argue he brought us all a nicely wrapped 2nd degree murder charge and all those statements and interviews. Not to mention all that forensic evidence, the strength of the Martins / Fultons & the prosecution team. Then there’s that lawsuit against him. Santa…..thanks !!
Merry Christmas Fogen…….I can’t wait for the New Year !!
LOL! Yeah, Santa has been very, very good to Team Trayvon. 🙂
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Yes he has………Ho ! Ho ! Ho ! Fogen…….remember to be careful about what you wish for…….ya just might get it.
Amazing, isn’t it? GZ doesn’t have money for expert witnesses, and I doubt there is sufficient money to conduct more depositions. Oh — and we shouldn’t forget that GZ has to pay $8 a day for his GPS monitoring.
And $27,000 to the security company who is suing him!
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“And $27,000 to the security company who is suing him! ”
Not to mention the $70 K the IRS wants in the very near future,
At first he was like
“6 months, we will be ready” says Omara
then after 6 months
“We need to extend our time period, but we will ask for a SYG hearing for April 2013”
then they were told that trial is set for June 2013 and he has until April 2013 to set up the trial for the SYG
“We need more time”
“We need a million dollars”
I doubt he gets a million but if I were Omara and got a million, I would pocket the mill, pay the security with a tip, ask for a plea bargain, and then be over and done with and take a nice vacation LOL
The nonsense about “following was not illegal” and “carrying a gun was not illegal” and “reporting Trayvon as suspicious was not illegal” and “blah blah blah” is irrelevant in light of the hollowpoint bullet in Trayvon Martin’s heart. Shooting Trayvon Martin was illegal. Those acts that preceded it simply SHOW it to have been illegal, because they show that it was Fogen, not Trayvon Martin, who was the aggressor in the situation. No amount of “legality” changes the situation.
The Taaffe/Osterman/Fogen version of events would have it that Fogen was a weak, stupid, bumbling non-racist fool instead of a murderer. They like that version only because it would, if credible, get Fogen off his obligatory 25 years in prison. But look at what you are expected to believe if you want to go with that explanation:
1. Fogen thought there was no chance of the police acting in a sufficiently protective manner, faced with the threat of a “suspicious guy,” unless he found an address and/or street name to give them, although that address and/or street name would have nothing to do with the location of the “suspicious guy” once “he ran.”
2. Trayvon Martin was “running” and then decided to stop running and to turn around and confidently attack Fogen with intent to kill.
3. Trayvon Martin easily overcame Fogen and was brutalizing him and would have continued to do so until Fogen was dead if not hot through the heart with a hollowpoint bullet.
4. Trayvon Martin heard a neighbor announce that he was about to call 911 but that did not cause Trayvon Martin to give up the beating and flee to avoid arrest.
and, last but not at all least,
5. Three or more full-force punches to Fogen’s face and three or more full-force bashes of Fogen’s head to the concrete resulted in a teensy bloody nose, producing a thimble-full of blood on Fogen’s face, and two capillary-type lacerations on the back of Fogen’s head producing another thimble-full of blood, which dripped down toward his ears from a more central position as Fogen lay on his back enduring the beat-down.
So believing all that, regardless of what Trayvon Martin ever did, in high school, at the 7-11, or that very night, is necessary and not even (at that) sufficient to believing that Fogen killed in self-defense. And the bottom line is:
NOT.
I agree
because if we were to do the math, it is very easy because to chase someone, one person has to be running away, and the other is going after them
in this situation
the defendant went after Trayvon
hence the defendant started it, because he went after the other party aggressively, hence the term “aggressor”
You would think that the Zidiots would take note of this based on the decision in the Dooley case. Bring that up to them however, and they deflect to arguing about race, effectively conveying that Dooley had no right to kill a White man and manslaughter should have been 1st degree murder because Dooley had his gun on him while washing his car and walking out of his garage.
It’s not about law, and facts, and evidence with the Zidiots. It is all about race. Junior continues confirming this.
The point is, they’re taking each action separately and apart from the other actions. While each action alone is not illegal, the fact is that all of these actions happened together and taken together they are illegal.
For the most part I agree, but when he said Trayvon was acting suspicious, that was a blatant lie. He railroaded Trayvon in his NEN call.
I’m sick of Zidiots saying Zimwit was railroaded…..I ask “by who” nobody did a thing to railroad Fogen. The entire NEN call is strictly to set Trayvon up. That is textbook “Railroading”
Exactly correct, Colin B. What is absent from all the Outhouse (and Jeralyn Merritt and Alan Dershowitz and etc. etc.) narrations about the events is the fact that Trayvon Martin had not only an absolute right to stand his ground, but he had a right to self-defense if SYG wouldn’t do it. They don’t feel embarrassed to suggest that Trayvon Martin should have humbly responded to any approach by Fogen as if Fogen was “the MAN” and he had to show his subjection and subservience. And these folks are not even, for the most part, aware of how racist that assumption is.
Even the guy who sponsored Florida’s SYG law said that it did not apply in this case to Fogen. Fogen was not standing his ground; he was pursuing Trayvon Martin in order to deprive Trayvon Martin of HIS GROUND. In a public place. Without authority.
I find that they usually argue that the chase and the pursuance and stalking can not be proven
Then when you prove the story of the address hunt is false and you have proof of the stalking and chase and show it
they then say you can not attack someone for following you
then when you show them that during the dark of the night, as a kid, unarmed, and you run away from someone, and then the creepy stranger keeps trying to get you no matter where you run, that stranger with a gun stalking you, would put anyone in a reasonable fear of danger because the kid’s fear was actually correct because he ended up getting killed…
so yeah, under SYG, Trayvon would have a right to stand his ground with reasonable force…
they then state that there is no way for Trayvon to know Zimmernuts had a gun
then you tell them that the defendant threatened the kid with it, and killed him with the gun, so, the kid obviously saw the murder weapon, hence the screaming
they then go back to claiming the vicious attack, and you cant defend yourself against a stalker, who happens to be armed with a gun
So basically, their theory and conclusion is kids, when chased by strangers with guns, should simply submit to the stranger’s will, because…
well they have not given any reason except that Crump is a bad lawyer, and it is Al Sharpton’s fault
Tell the lot of them to stick it in their collective ears and blame me. Then they’ll see what one can do to defend themselves verbally.
You have it nailed but good. Blame everyone else.
LOL
They are really difficult to be reasonable with, and use reasoning but they do not listen because of their bias
I forgot to add that they like to blame the media
Oh yes, they blame the media for reporting GZ as White. It just demonstrates more of their ignorance because the media reported based on the police reports, and the first police reports provide GZ’s race as “White,” just as subsequently, does his physician.
But, this also demonstrates their lack of facing reality because what if GZ had been first reported as Hispanic? Would that have made a difference when we all heard GZ’s NEN call? Would it make a difference once knowing what GZ believed about the Ware case? Rather than try to present the Ware case as GZ not being racially bigoted, it serves instead to support that GZ knows the SPD is racially bigoted.
When I used to comment on Yahoo articles, this was one argument I would address. The motive for following is what can make it unlawful. GZ expresses a bad faith motive when saying, “Shit. He’s running.” Without asking for directives, GZ independently decided to get out of his truck and follow Trayvon at a fast pace. How do we know it was a fast pace? For the same reason that the dispatcher knew.
GZ intended to catch-up to Trayvon and when he did, we can bet he was not going to say “I don’t have a problem.”
LOL
The other part of the argument is they also get mad when you tell them that what the defendant was doing is “stalking”
I actually had some person start yelling racial slurs at me, and called me a “3rd world chink who should not be inside of America” because I stated the defendant was stalking
I actually agree, as that is one of the reasons they made stalking a crime, because generally when a stranger keeps pursuing and following you everywhere and making you apprehensive and scared, the victim of the stalking is generally right, because stalker’s do not in a large percentage, have good intentions, when stalking their victims, as was shown in this case
Whether you want to use the legal definition, or the dictionary definition, or both, the defendant was in actuality stalking and he did not have good intentions considering his before killing actions and statements
It is reasonable for anyone to be apprehensive about a stranger stalking them, and continually trying to get them, no matter where they ran away to, especially a stranger who was armed with a gun, an attitude, and a physical, mental, and experienced combat and violence advantage over them
It was so obvious that even the dispatcher figured he was stalking the kid, hence him asking if he was following the kid, and then told him that pursuing the kid was unnecessary
These arguments about who had what rights are trumped and rendered false by the simple fact that GZ wore no uniform, had no badge, no police powers, no right to “investigate” anyone or anything at all, and certainly no right to remain unidentified, before, during or after any contact with a complete stranger!
When he admits that Trayvon is a complete stranger, someone he does not know and knows absolutely nothing about, his ability to do anything at all, except converse and identify himself, ends for the purposes at law. Because he has witnessed no crime or even criminal activity, he is barred from accosting, confronting, detaining or following anyone! Less, under the color of NW.
Thus he is completely and totally without a defense for his words, actions and deeds of that night!
Merry Christmas, everyone! I hope all had a wonderful Christmas with family and friends. Enjoy it to the fullest and stay safe!
Malisha says:
December 25, 2012 at 5:41 pm
Ever notice how with all the carryings on the NRA has done, talking about how more guns are needed to prevent violence, not one single solitary NRA spokesperson has yet to say:
“Trayvon Martin should have been armed that night; if he had been armed, he’d be alive today.”
Reply.Indeed he would be alive to day.Alive in a prison cell with no possability of reform.But just sheer vindictive punishment. Or spend the rest of his life on death row
Or If he is lucky gets pared death an has thirty forty fifty yrs hard labour to endure.Slaverey for all in tensive purposes…You honestly beleive if Trayvon pulled out a weapon cause foggen was stalking him ..
And said why are you chaseing me in car an now on foot ?An gz pulled his gun out tried to grab Trayvon….Whweupon Trayvon moves back levels his own firearm an says drop your weapon or I will shoot..In responce gz reaches for his gun an prepares to fire..Trayvon wins an drops him there an then saveing his own life from this mucho loco ….Now if theases circumstances ocoured can anyone .Even with a vivid imagination
Forsee Trayvons feet touching the ground till he landed in a Sandford Police cell,,,An how long would it take …S P D…To trace an find the most incompitent public preteder .Theyve got some doozies in Florida .the guy that defended /crusufied alleen wournarous is a prime example like a reject from the fabulous furry freak brothers.Trayvon would not have been given the benefit of stand your ground .Protecting himsef from a strager who blindsided him from the bushes along an unlit dog walk .Told me I was going to die an I was terrified for mt small brothe r .He couldve seen mr leave or enter my house what if he killed my new wee bro .An sat an killed my dad an his fiance as thet returned home,,,,Do you think they would give him any creedace for logic an common sence?..But fogen gets a pass on any old waffle.
Whent in house killed my
Good tidings to all for these holidays and the new year 2013. Felices fiestas!
I do not feel we should call Zimmernuts Fogenhats The 3rd, a vigilante, because vigilantes are out to kill bad guys and people who commit violent crimes. The defendant just murdered a kid for walking around looking about, going home with candy. Let us be correct and just call him a predator and a scheming liar.
Exactly and, I agree with you 110%. he is worse than any monster that I know of and, his days are surely numbered. so is his father’s and his tambourine player brother. the two of them are going around on different blog sites spewing their lies and hatred towards this innocent kid that their worthless family member murdered in cold and, I mean very cold blood.
Errr… NO! Vigilantes, may be out to get the “bad guys”, but they get their bad name because they’re administering “justice” without a trial to test the evidence for or against the accused.
Thus a vote for vigilantes is a vote to convict a without trial. Is that the kind of society anyone here wants to live in? If so, there are still plenty of countries on earth where one can go to experience living under that kind of system, usually the country is very backwards in other things as well.
Both GZ, his family and the SPD are telling us the don’t believe in the value of the U.S. Constitution and that “trial by jury” should be done away with in “certain” cases. SYG states also don’t believe in the U.S. Constitution and would allow police and others to “try” matters right there on the spot, with no appeals possible.
I remember a time in America, when we all respected, observed and demanded that the Constitution be enforced for all equally. That was the goal we were always trying to achieve and that we had various groups fighting to be included under Constitutional protections. Today, however, we have millions of people who, whether they know it or not, are enamored of letting corporations make the laws for them. My guess is they haven’t studied history, or they’d realize that has been tried before and it failed miserably.
My problem with it is, not so much that it does fail, but how it fails! See “Les Miserables” for instruction on that. I sincerely doubt that public officials have any interest in revisiting those days. Yet they seem blissfully unaware of how their submissiveness is leading them down that same path again.
Lonnie- to piggy back on your observations, there was a time when unions were the only force willing to stand against corporate abuses. And yet people are willing to blame unions for all their ills today! Do they really think corporations gave us 5 day workweeks, 40 hour work loads per week, paid vacations and safe working conditions from the goodness of their avaricious souls? Ignorance is dangerous. Complacency is the ground where evil and injustice breed. That is why it is so important to have blogs like this, people willing to make a stink when cops become thugs and murderers and cops protect thugs and murderers.
Sent from my iPod
…And let me piggy back on you: The single, biggest and most effective cause of people failing to think for themselves is: DEBT.
Remember how college campuses were the single biggest source of protest? Observe how docile these youths of today are, now that they’ve been saddled with almost unbearable debt loads.
Most union members kept their biggest nest egg, which was their home, in the safe haven provided by Savings and Loan banks. They were safe havens of middle class wealth, because S&L’s were prohibited by law, from investing in anything less than the highest rated securities available. When they were deregulated they collapsed. Now the middle class has to hazard the market to store their wealth where nothing is certain. Thus poor market conditions can keep workers in debt for life.
With free college and higher education available in other countries, we’re likely to experience a very severe “brain drain” quite soon.
Ever notice how with all the carryings on the NRA has done, talking about how more guns are needed to prevent violence, not one single solitary NRA spokesperson has yet to say:
“Trayvon Martin should have been armed that night; if he had been armed, he’d be alive today.”
Excellent point!
Great thought, very incisive!
The only person who has said that is a judge on Huff Post, who stated that Trayvon would have been justified to shoot and kill Zimmernuts Fogenhats The 3rd
Question 2
It is documented that foams were already surging out of Trayvon’s mouth upon the arrival of the cops. What is the medical explanation of this occurrence
Trayvon was shot through the chest an half his heart blown away..His lungs would collapse .The lungs are like sponges an if you squeeze a sponge fuid escapes like bubbles or foam..Trayvon would have beeen exhaleing at least his lungs would be exhaleing a pink foamy substance from jis mouth an possably his nose.Its caused by the remmnants of air escapeing his lungs.Much of it exited through the hole the deffendant blasted in his chest .But as its texturs spongelike some escape through his mouth.
Remember also that as soon as Fogen shot Trayvon, he (Fogen) “lunged” onto him and he weighed almost 200 pounds. That would expel the bloody foam out through all routes available even before the police arrived.
My estimation is the weight of over 200 pounds sitting on Trayvon’s back, pinning him facedown, caused the foam and also the asphyxia that led to the brain edema, as severe brain edema is caused by a loss of oxygen and blood to the brain, and sitting on a shot kid, with over 200 pounds, contributed to that factor
Love it! Spinning Wheel is the perfect song for this case!
Haven’t been on in awhile. Hope everyone is having a Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays.
@Searchingmind, if this POS is not convicted for this *MURDER* there is no justice in this country at all. that was flat out first degree murder of a child that he committed. may he spend the rest of his days in prison.
Typo: ‘ …. and the cause will be relevant in determining Zimmermans guilt/innocence’, should read: “and if the cause will be relevant in determining Zimmermans guilt/innocence”.
“There is a lot the public doesn’t know” – Angela Corey.
Guys, I would appreciate your reactions to the following not extremely important questions:
Question 1
The autopsy report notes, among others, the presences of “severe global edema” in Trayvon’s brain. I have no medical qualifications of any kind and as such do not know what may have caused it and the cause will be relevant in determining Zimmermans guilt/innocence.
My research on this subject turned up the following:
“- Edema in the brain may be topographically classified into focal or global.
(i) Focal edema generates a pressure gradient with adjacent regions and may result in tissue shift and herniation. Examples of focal edema can be found around tumors, hematomas,
and infarctions.
(ii) Global edema diffusely affects the whole brain and, when critical, it may cause intracranial hypertension, compromise perfusion, and lead to generalized ischemia. Cardiopulmonary arrest, severe traumatic injury, and fulminant liver failure are common causes of global cerebral edema”.
Question 1.1. Could the fatal gunshot that destroyed Trayvon’s heart and collapsed both of his lungs be the “severe traumatic injury” that caused the “severe global edema”. Question 1.2. if the answer is no, what then is the medical explanation for Trayvon’s massive brain injury? Question 1.3. how could anyone in Trayvon’s shape (i.e. in vegetative state given the massive brain injury and collapsed lungs) utter any randdom words/sentences, let alone articulate any words/sentences, still be “struggling” violently, “cursing” and needed to be “restrained” – as Zimmerman alleges?
Question 2
It is documented that foams were already surging out of Trayvon’s mouth upon the arrival of the cops. What is the medical explanation of this occurrence?
Question 3
It has also been documented that Trayvon had tears flowing from his eyes. Question 3.1. what is the medical explanation for this occurrence? Question 3.2. Do we know the direction the flow of the tears?
Q1. We need Dr to say what could have caused generalised oedema to the brain as unless he received a head trauma, or it was through lack of oxygen to the brain once the heart was ripped apart doesn´t seem logical.
In respect of Trayvon struggling and cursing after being shot, curiously when Serino or Singleton asked what Trayvon was saying GZ replied “ow, ow, ow”, which sounds like the onomatopoeia for noises of pain.
My guess is the combination of blood loss from the gun shot to the heart which also collapsed the lungs, and add to that the defendant pinned the kid facedown after shooting him, sitting over 200 pounds, added asphyxia to the damage, and the defendant was seen rubbing his hands all over the victim molesting the body of the kid, and the sheer terror and shock of the struggle the defendant instigated and escalated, all led to the severe global brain edema
I believe it was lack of oxygen getting to the brain is what caused the global swelling of Trayvon’s brain. and as mentioned, with Fat So sitting on this kids back, that didn’t help matters at all. in fact, I believe it really helped to cause his death, even though it would have been secondary to the gunshot wound. by Fogen misfit sitting on Trayvon’s back, this will also come in as a part of the reason for his death.
he definitely has a depraved mind as well as one that makes him out to be the idiot that he is.
I think you’ll find that interior bleeding of the sort that Trayvon displayed due to a gunshot through the heart causes the global edema in the brain simply because of severe blood loss. There’s nothing mysterious about it.
Maybe that foaming was caused by his lungs collapsing.
@ GBlock and Lonnie, concerning this issue:
Now, we look at the picture, taken of the back of his head at the scene, and we look at the picture taken of the same head at the station. The blood trails are exactly the same. What that means is, the blood rivulets and trails in the photo taken at the scene, had already stopped flowing. Out in the rain, in less that 4 minutes, you’re saying we should believe that GZ’s blood somehow avoided absorbing any rain water, and coagulated faster than blood normally does? By 2.5 minutes yet?
My problem with this evidentiary conundrum is this: Between the picture “taken of the back of his head at the scene” and the “picture taken of the same head at the station,” there was a third picture taken.
===========================
Here’s the timeline:
1. At some point before Trayvon Martin was killed OR shortly thereafter, but before the police started making reports about Fogen’s condition, TWO SMALL LACERATIONS occurred to the back of Fogen’s head. I will put them as being “BPA” as in “Before Police Arrived” although, technically, we do not know if the event occurred before the first officer arrived. (First = Smith & Smith = of questionable honesty)
2. At some point BPA a by-stander allegedly took a picture of the back of Fogen’s head showing that from those two lacerations, blood rivulets (the “Rivulets”) had formed dripping down his head and towards his ears and neck, bilaterally.
3. At some point after the police arrived and started making reports about Fogen’s condition, a picture of his bloody nose was taken as he sat in the squad car, and presumably at that time the back of his head was still bloody, whether or not the blood was dried.
4. One or more EMTs cleaned him up. One reported that the blood on the back of his head was dried or congealed (I no longer remember). Peroxide was used to clean up the Rivulets.
5. Videos were taken by the CCT cameras in the garage of the station house and inside the station house at which time there were no Rivulets.
6. Still pictures were taken at the station house, front of his face (blood had been cleaned up by the EMTs and there was no more blood either on nose, upper lip, lower lip, mustache or to the right of his mouth) and back of his head (RIVULETS are there again! They are thinner but follow the same PATH! It’s a MIRACLE!)
==============================
FOLKS, whether the blood dries or doesn’t dry, congeals or doesn’t congeal, whether it dates back to before Fogen set out that evening or not, whether it’s from trees or branches or a sign or the flat side of a Kal-tec gun, how the bejeebers does it flow down in rivulets, get cleaned up and dried and then reproduce the same rivulets AFTER THE CLEANING, all for photo ops?
===============================
The time-stamp on the “by-stander” photo taken allegedly at the scene outside shows that it occurred before the trip to the station house in the back of Tim Smith’s squad car.
The time-stamp on the videos of Fogen getting out of the back of the squad car and being led into the station house through the garage shows that it followed that initial photo.
The time-stamp of the official front-and-back-of-head photographs at the station house shows that this event came third, of the three.
==================================
Isn’t this a kind of “Columbo would never believe this!” phenomenon?
Would Monk believe this?
Would any TV detective believe this?
Does Serino believe this?
Clearly O’Mara doesn’t believe this because he’s been exercising his right to remain silent about these photographs of the back of Fogen’s head.
TALK TO ME!
“5. Videos were taken by the CCT cameras in the garage of the station house and inside the station house at which time there were no Rivulets.”
No. You can’t see rivulets in the garage, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t there. The resolution of the camera is so poor, the lighting conditions so uneven, and the video compression so high that you can’t make out any details on the back of GZ’s head. There is one frame where the larger of the two cuts is visible, but it disappears in the next. The still frame grab that was used to supposedly show a distinct wound is actually a shadow on the top of GZ’s head. The telltale rivulet remnant seen in the later photo from the inside of the station is on the left his of GZ’s head. In the garage video, we only see the right side of his head until he is way too far away for any detail to appear even sporadically.
TV detectives live in a magic world where any crappy photo or video can be “enhanced” into perfect clarity. This is not possible IRL. The only phenomenon you are seeing there is crappy video. No conspiracy HERE. Move on.
BTW, do you have a source for your post earlier relating how GZ was part of Bill Lee’s ‘posse’, and worked to get him appointed when the old chief was dumped after the Ware/Collison scandal? This seems important, but I’ve only seen it referenced in your one post.
You go back to the March articles about how Fogen helped out with the Sherman Ware situation. There is a public meeting at the police station I believe, and Fogen is quoted as getting very exercised about the former Chief, and saying he should not get his pension, and how dare all the police act so wrong, and blah blah and not ONE mention of the Sherman Ware incident or anything else specific. He does complain that he went on a ride-along and the police he observed (not naming names) performed poorly. All the information I had on that came from those articles (probably a half dozen of them, OS and Miami Herald most likely) and websites discussing the “Fogen helps poor Blacks” meme.
Then Fogen commenced writing to Chief Lee to commend various officers for this and for that. He told Singleton that he had written one to Chief Lee about her for going “above and beyond the call of duty” when she did something ordinary like handing out papers. He also reminded her that he worked private parties with her or something. He maintained a correspondence with Chief Lee and I remember noting that Tim Smith and that officer Raimondo were also included, probably by being complimented for their work or something.
I’d have to reconstruct it carefully but I’m sure it’s in the articles. Nothing in direct police reports. But I didn’t FOIA the memos Fogen had written TO police department, only reports made to the police department ABOUT Fogen, and they claimed there were none except for one (which did not name him by name) saying a guy was walking around casing the neighborhood with a clip-board but did not have I.D. That was on September 19, 2011 I believe. Someone called him in.
But Whonoze, there was no blood left on the front of his face by the time the pictures at the station house were taken. The EMTs reported cleaning him up. How do we do away with the EMTs saying they cleaned him up, and then end up with the same picture before clean-up and after clean-up? Remember them saying 45% of his head was covered with blood? They cleaned him up with peroxide. Do you think they cleaned up his little mustache and not the back of his big round noggin?
I’m just askin…
The EMTs cleaned the areas of the wounds, on the back of his head, leaving the blood trail under his left ear. I’m guessing they weren’t interested in ‘cleaning’ him cosmetically, only medically. Thank heavens, they left that one piece of evidence alone and GZ was too dumb not to wash it off himself during a bathroom break. He probably thought having some blood left on him ws good for his story. Perhaps Physics was one of those courses he bombed at his Juco, and the whole Isaac newton thing never occurred to him.
Malisha, After eating my s’mores I took a look at the photos. I agree with whonoze. The one at the arrival at the station house isn’t sharp enough or well lit enough for that kind of detail. It looks like the EMTs cleaned around the wounds but that’s all. The one at the scene is fresher blood than the one at SPD where the blood is drier and some of it may have chipped off, but your observation of the lines of the blood being the same is accurate. It was never all washed off.
Since the blood trails are the same in the second picture, taken much later, as they are in the first picture taken earlier. That means that the blood in the first photo was already FIXED. It was no longer flowing, thus the trails and/or rivulets did not extend further or change.
By itself that means nothing. But, when one considers how long a time these blood flows had to fix themselves, by examination of the narrative about how they came to be. We must find that they had only 2.5 minutes to flow and become fixed. But then, they are not smeared or even interrupted in their courses. While the narrative states that they were opened by the head being repeatedly bashed on wet concrete for one minute of the 2.5 minutes available. Then they were rubbed in wet grass for more seconds of the 1.5 minutes of available time.
So then the narrative would have us believe, that the blood flows were unaffected by the repeated bashing on wet concrete first. That could only mean that the wounds opened and bled during the last few bashes on wet concrete. How they avoided being smeared on the wet grass remains a mystery that begs explanation. But, even more mysterious is, how they became fixed in less than 1.5 minutes before the photo was taken.
My explanation/theory is that, because there is also dried blood in less than an hour, in high humidity and rain on a rather chilly evening, the wounds and the blood flows happened before GZ left home, where he could allow the blood to flow uninterrupted, while holding his head rather still for several minutes in a warm dry place.
I welcome alternative theories that take the needs of establishing these blood artifacts into account.
Actually nobody believes it, relax, sit back, it’s going to be one hell of a trial.
Nicknames for witnesses:
Witness “John” who saw MMA punches raining down and then didn’t see any kind of punches raining anywhere: “Fitness Witness” or “Delusion John”
Witness Wibker who says Fogen “solved a lot of crimes”: “Fibber Wibker” or “Delusion Fusion”
That witness who saw the guy on the bottom who had on a “red or white” shirt: “Anything-Goes” [but don’t forget BLUE]
Fortuitously none if those “witnesses ” are credible. They will not be seen at trial to muddy the water. And even if they were asked to testify, there is indisputable DNA evidence and police records against their lies.
Sent from my iPod
What crimes did this misfit solve, if anything he committed one of the biggest in his years of committing crimes and then his daddy calls in favors or make threats himself, and get the charges dismissed. his criminal activities were also expunged. IMO when a person is as violent as this one is, their criminal record ought to remain intact. there is no way that he should have been able to have a gun or a ccw permit.
Imo, there were never any break ins taking place in that neighborhood. if anything, Mutt and Jeff were the ones going into homes where they knew that the owners were maybe away and, the two of them went in and took things. I mean, whose to say that they didn’t *STEAL* the very things that Taaffe claimed to have had stolen from him, and then take it and sale it for the money. after all they both couldn’t keep a job and, they had to eat. I don’t trust either one of these despicable subhuman beings.
they are lying and the same goes for some of the witnesses in that complex. witness #11 comes to mind real easy and so does her mate. they both know more than what they are telling.
I would not be surprised to discover that GZ was fencing stolen property and selling it on ebay for a living. NW would make a really good cover for a fence. If they’re caught with stolen property, they can credibly claim they recovered it, for return to it’s owner. This is also another avenue through which GZ might have connected with people around TM’s age.
The financial markets lockup in 2007 left GZ and FT in dire financial straits for a very long time. If they were fencing stolen property, just imagine how much more lucrative their operation would be, if GZ was hired-for-pay by the RATL, HOA.
I’m pretty sure Angela Corey knows what she’s talking about when she says “we ain’t seen nothing yet” [NADQ], the clues are simply screaming “there’s more here than meets the eye”!
“Age. Fac ut gaudeam”
—Clintonius Eastwoodeyeay Circa 1971
Thank you! I’ve been saying it!!! Did you read the following? I posted it in September.
Yes, and that’s not the only speculation about GZ fencing stolen property that I had read. There were several people, over the course of the year, positing that GZ was most likely involved in some kind of criminal activity.
If GZ was involved in fencing stolen stuff, eBay would be most probable avenue. I am sure eBay will cooperate since they never get involved in criminal/ controversial ventures.
Sent from my iPod
Yes and they are another site that keeps records forever like google.
My LE connections are telling me the same thing. Key….$130.00 + in e-bay shipping costs the week before he committed murder.
Remember when he set up his “Watch” Program, he went door to door, clipboard in hand and asked everyone about their work and vacation schedules, were they armed, and what were the valuables they needed protected the most. Who came & went, what family visited, was anyone handicapped, were there any dogs, etc, etc, etc.
In the real world that’s called “Casing the joint”
Witness 6 has given numerous stories but perhaps the defendant got to the witness beforehand before giving the 2nd testimony because Fogenhats was walking around free after killing a kid, a kid who was screaming, and I believe some of the witnesses were scared of the defendant because the cops did not do their job at the beginning, and the defendant could have attacked them too
1 – Stated on his 911 call it was wrestling and then the defendant killed the kid
2 – made the MMA ground and pound statement and stated the defendant was screaming
3 – Then said the victim was simply pinning the defendant down and he was not sure who was screaming
4 – Then when FDLE spoke to him about the differences in his testimonies, he then stated his 4th story, which is he was not sure if it was pinning or hitting, and he was not sure who was screaming, and he was not sure if the defendant was wearing white or red
5 – Then he told Bernie he heard no hitting noises or striking noises, so the witness seems to be sticking to the pinning story now
He certainly sounds like a witness who has been “reached”. How that “reaching” was accomplished is yet another matter. Either he was somehow involved, which would explain his initial support of GZ, rather than simply stating that he didn’t know. Or, someone came to him later and gave him a story they believed to be a better fit with what GZ was claiming.
The conduct of the police out there on the scene, altering the witnesses observations, doesn’t help remove them as a likely source of these conflicts at all. Of course, there’s MO and/or FT who could have paid a visit as well.
I’ll bet that these witnesses who engage odd behavior themselves, are getting or have gotten special attention by the FBI and the SP. But most likely the FBI, who would cast the widest net via digging deep into their background and questioning people who knew them, and examination of their phone records and travels etc.
AC says there’s much more we are going to learn, should this case go to trial. I’ll believe that there is.
Thanks Dave will give it ago
Well wada ya know easypeasy cheers Merry Christmas or whatever you follow or not have a great holiday…….Unless your working just have a great one an a happy newyear…
thanks again Dave.
Proffessor – Just wanted to stop in and wish you and Crane a very merry Christmas and hope that you and yours are having a wonderful day of memories. Thank you for sharing your knowledge as we travel this journey in seeking justice in the name of Trayvon. Peace be with you.
acemayo…Frank Taffes house never got robbed by black males or anyone period…The deffendant claims he saw someone loitering by F Taffes place an the windows were open or some such nonsence.So our hero gets on the phone for back up stare or scares of the loitering suspect.When police arrive apperentlly all the doors are open as we;ll as the windows yet no break actually occoured .Ive often speculated that this was a sey up.An foggen was laying in wait for someone to enter F Taffes wide open home an arrest them at gunpoint as they exited with there bounty.Why elase leave your house un secure in the middle of this huge crime wave your warning everyone about..?
If FT helps with NW and he know about all of the breakins, why, why would he leave his OWN house open. That should be part of community watch – lock up your house to slow down the crooks til GZ arrives.
How many other people in the neighborhood made calls about the black thugs overrunning the neighborhood?
Colin B, I agree 100%. In fact, I think all the February 2012 shenanigans related to Fogen trying to get himself a notch on his gun (not intending to kill, but intending to apprehend and to have to use his gun to do so) so he could show those HOA people that he was absolutely essential, as a gun-toting NW Captain, to patrol their neighborhood. I think Taaffe left his place wide open hoping that would give Fogen his chance to catch a burglar. I’m not even sure there was anybody loitering near Taaffe’s place; Fogen could easily have described this dangerous lurker as being there when he simply saw him somewhere else and wanted to hype it up so Taaffe could report that “He thwarted a burglary.” After all, have we ever once heard Taaffe say, “It was foolish of me to leave my doors and windows open”? No we haven’t. Wouldn’t any rational person say that? Sure they would.
I have formed, and stuck with, the theory that all the activity in February 2012 by Taaffe, Fogen and Osterman (at least) had to do with Fogen’s attempt to get rid of those pesky complaints that were being made about him to the police and to other residents. Some residents (who were later intimidated) were definitely beginning to complain about Fogen to the police and to each other and perhaps to management and the FOA. They were sick of Fogen tailing people, tattling about things that had not even happened, and harassing young African Americans. His conduct was attracting notice and there were people who felt uncomfortable about his “patrolling” with a loaded gun. The press reported on this back in March 2012 and then fell silent. At the time, Ibrahim Rashada, a resident of RTL who owned his own home, mentioned it and clearly described Fogen’s activities as racial profiling. The police were put on notice lots of times. Fogen was trying to prove that he had good reason to carry his loaded gun.
Still, Corey’s choice of using second degree rather than first was a wise one and I immediately saw how clever she was to avoid the issue of pre-planning. She had enough to convict on a second-degree, and went with it. I personally believe that Fogen wanted to apprehend a “suspect” that night but ended up killing instead because his “suspect” wouldn’t play the right part in the little stage-play that Fogen had written and was directing and producing. We will never know how many people like Fogen have gotten away with killing people like Trayvon Martin in towns like Sanford with police forces like the SPD. I would guess that it’s an astonishingly high number, and that it reached critical mass on 2/26/2012.
Jun Merry Christmas…Beleive you I wish I could split my comments into parahgraphs its pisses people off it pisses me of..But I dont know how to acomplish it..Ive tried the obvious things like use the space bar over an over .But that doesnt have the desired affect an Ive tried useing ……………..dots to break up my wall of txt…If someone could explain in idiot proof language how to acomplish paragraphs.Would be most gratefull.
Just hit the ENTER key twice.
Merry Christmas to you, Colin, as well as the Professor, Crane, and all the gang!
Colin, your “ENTER KEY” may say “RETURN” 🙂
Either way, hit it twice and you’ll get a paragraph.
By the way, when I offered to type stuff for you it was not for blogging, but if you wanted to write something, a document that would be sent somewhere for a specific purpose, not just conversational as we do on the web. So in that regard, typing up a document that is significant for its structure as much as for its content, the offer is still open.
Going over in my mind the progression of things that Fogen says happened that night, and the witnesses, and the tapes, in spite of all the attention paid to “fucking coons” versus “fucking punks,” the one thing that strikes me as absolutely damning beyond any assertion to the contrary is the conversation after the shooting with the bystander about the weaponry. “What kind of bullets?” “Hollow-point.” As if a hunter had brought down an elk or a deer. “What kind of bullets?” “Hollow-point.”
Malisha – this is just one more aspect of the “depraved mind” that will be made evident come trial. This is one of the comments that night that makes me shudder – the hunt, the take down, and the bragging. Disgusting.
Still, first it make you wonder WHY John asked such a stupid question? Putting myself in that place, I would be screaming for help, sitting next to Trayvon, feeling for a heartbeat, checking for a pulse, saying reassuring shit to Trayvon in case he could hear me; ANYTHING but asking about bullets! What the HELL is WRONG with John?
Sent from my iPod
Cielo, Witness 13, who spoke to GZ about the bullets, is named Jonathan, or Jon. Witness 6, who described the ‘MMA-style beatdown” but then recanted, is named John. People get the two confused. It helps to spell their names right, and use witness numbers to avoid that. Eg. JonW13 and JohnW6.
Thank you! I did indeed get them mixed up! Still, either Jon or John, are both strange folks. “MMA” style of something he didn’t see, and sitting by idly chit chatting about bullets with a dead or dying child at your feet. Both deserve a slap upside their respective heads.
Sent from my iPod
“What is wrong with John” is the reason he claimed to see MMA punches in the first place.
Oops, Whonoze, did I just get the two mixed up, just as you pointed out? 😳 How embarrassing! Well if just ONE of them made up the “MMA punches” and just the OTHER of them engaged in the little “hunters’ chit-chat” with Fogen after “the kill,” I’m really not too terribly concerned about which one I meant when I asked, “What’s wrong with John?” Perhaps they’re closer, under the skin, than first meets the eye. “Hey Homie, what kinda ammunition did you use in this interesting project when you were defending yourself against MMA style punches?” would be a composite.
This is a test. A friend just explained the block-quotes toggle to me.
And this material is intended to go back out to the margins.
Just testing the bold feature and italics while I’m at it
❓ Let’s see what happens.
ANNOUNCEMENT
Today is Christmas, the day of glad tidings and good news to men. I have some other good news to share.
The petition that Lonnie Starr wrote and posted on “We The People” is now closed, with 1,684 signatures.
As most here probably know, Lonnie posted the petition in response to one posted by David Piercy asking for investigation into GZ’s “malicious prosecution.” They had a one week head start on Lonnie’s petition, and Junior also promoted it on Fox News. That petition closed on Dec. 17th with 1,156 signatures.
Without any major television network providing time to promote Lonnie’s petition, we (and I mean WE as in supporters of justice for Trayvon who hit Twitter and Facebook), ended with a 528 signature gain over GZ’s petition.
The other good news is that in response to a request to promote the petition by a very reputable television and radio source, I was informed that there was no need for the petition because the DOJ is in fact investigating whether GZ violated Trayvon Martin’s civil rights.
Without planning it for the day that the petition would close, this is like giving a Christmas present to Trayvon Martin. Our work shall not be in vain.
Xena, Lonnie, thank you very much for all this work. If you hadn’t set aside time and money and worked hard to do this, we would not have this extra “wreath” to hang up today to decorate the movement to make Trayvon Martin’s death stand for something big in our society. In fact, I believe we’re making it stand for the principle that targeting and killing peaceable and vulnerable individuals in our society is no longer “free game.” It comes with a terrible price.
Happy holiday and Merry Christmas to all. I have enjoyed reading the posts and learned a lot about the case on Professor’s blog.
At the least it shows that they have no “ground swell of support”, why else would a petition that was only advertised on the blogs, close with more votes than one that was promoted on the national media?
It’s much more likely that their numbers include the handful of rabid proZ bloggers who were motivated to spoof id’s and sign their petition a number of times.
That GZ’s source of money dried up after he let it be known that he wasn’t lily white, but part Hispanic, says that his supporters believed he was white, as did almost everyone else, until he issued that disclaimer. The SPD says they believed he was white and his various applications indicate he called himself white and not Hispanic. So the money he received was most likely racist money, because the gun issues are still there, but no funds are coming from gun supporters.
Thus GZ charade of widespread support for himself is revealed as a fraud. That has to be some comfort to all who grieve for Trayvon Benjamin Martin and his family.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL.
TRAYVON RULES!!!
Merry Christmas to you all and, may GOD continue to bestow his blessings on each and every one of you in the coming New Year. also, lets continue on our path to get Justice for our young ones who are gone too soon. Trayvon Martin, Jordan Davis and the victims in Aurora, Colorado. it’s a fact that gun violence in this country must end. those who have taken the lives of these people must be made an example in this country’s quest to stop these senseless murders of innocent people.
Merry Christmas and thank you to all fellow contributors who are working to erode the false alibi of a murderer. Thank you over and over to Professor and Crane-Station. Many hopes and wishes for justice for the memory of this poor child and children like him.
May we help stop the murder.
Wishing you all health and goodness in the New Year.
Many have expressed my sentiments so beautifully that I will just add my voice of gratitude and well wishes to all! Even bit players like me are learning many things. It has been an honor and a privilege to be in a top class! Thank you Professor Leatherman and Crane Station for providing such a wonderful place to be. Blessings for today, the New Year and always!
Sent from my iPod
The message SYG sends is not a clear one and appears to circumvent the traditional homicide standards. As the killings continue they will escalate and the nature of them will change.
Eventually, and quite soon, we will become a nation of shut ins.
All that commercial real estate, held by shopping centers and malls, industrial parks and office complexes will be too dangerous
to enter and thus will go to waste. Much of the work that’s done today in offices can be done at home via the internet. So, that’s the way we will go up to a point.
The internet can’t handle the need for people to be present in labs and workshops. While virtual reality might be able to handle some of that, it can’t do the best job, so get ready for more passes, badges and biometric id. If these laws aren’t recinded, both dramatically and soon, we’re going to be living in a situation that’s worse than what the U.S.S.R. had. One things for sure, we won’t have a civil society any longer.
Most “gun nuts” have only an anecdotal understanding of SYG in the first place, most LEO outfits have people on board, who will use SYG to pick and choose who gets tried or not and/or what evidence get collected and when. This is going to lead to a hodge podge of dangerous results and a welter of even more gross anecdotes to feed the frenzy. Tending the entire nation toward chaos. Something must be done now, or soon you won’t even be able to go to the supermarket without a bulletproof vest. Either that or they’ll have to close down and/or move online.
A society cannot tolerate these changes that will be made if these laws are not shut down quickly and dramatically.
This is a very important point.
First, I was just afraid for young African American males I knew, and cautioned them. Then I realized that a sense of danger was pervading our whole culture. Russians told me about this back in 1978 — the international perception of the American armed camp was already formed back then! Now it’s just unbelievable. Way beyond any rational explanation. Our hostility is increasing at an exponential rate. All this is good for the NRA which sprang up, coincidentally (“There is no such thing as a coincidence” — Army CID), the year the KKK was criminalized.
This could be true because going out is really dangerous now
Look at the person who shot up that mall in Oregon
Look at the movie theatre in Colorado
Then the Trayvon Case
An elementary school was shot up
a hospital was shot up
There needs to be some gun control because the guns are ending up in the hands of dangerous maniacs and it is way too easy for any Tom Dick Harry to just grab a piece
It is a combination of studying these psychopaths so that we can see the signs early enough to prevent them from getting their hands on a gun
People like that could still use knives but at least they dont have a gun while the good and normal people have a gun to take out the guy with the knife who is psycho
Merry Christmas!
Yes, Merry Christmas to everyone here!
Merry Christmas!
How far is it from the mail boxes where TM was to where GZ call
It was dark and raindy, was the street light so bright that GZ can
made out TM face, from an long distance, there are no houses
close to the mail boxes
So what house he was looking at.
So far whenever a black male is shot
Who ever shot a black male said his hand is in his wraist band
He looks likes he has something in his hand
He don’t look right
For the Love of God
Tell how an Black Male suppose to look like
So that we need not fear a black male
What street can a black male walk
without being in the wrong area
to someone
I wish someone will go when its dark
to the place where TM was at
before the 911 call
have a friend be where TM was
Than you go to the area where GZ was
you and your friend be talking
on yours cell phones
Have your friend(TM at the mail box) close one of his eyes
Now ask you(GZ truck was) can he made out his face
@acemayo. There are people who have gone over the clubhouse videos, and if I’m not mistaken, the majority agree that GZ never parked at the clubhouse. Some have tracked his headlights making U-turns in front of the clubhouse, but not parking where he said he parked in the re-enactment.
GZ’s NEN call gives us a glimpse into his driving. The dispatcher first go the address from GZ where he saw Trayvon; i.e., the clubhouse. Subsequently, without being asked, GZ begins giving directions, and he sounds a bit frustrated. That could be, because he was moving and not parked. When the dispatcher asked for the address where GZ was parked, he said he didn’t know because it is a cut-through.
In the following video, go to about 11:00 into it and watch thereafter. Dave shows another “cut-through.”
Around 2:45 Frank is insisting that the closest route from his place to Brandi Green’s house is to turn right down RTC towards Fogen’s house. Typing the two addresses into google maps gives you the two quickest options…1)left around RTC or 2)left around RTC to TTL and back to RTC.
Taaffe assumes absolutely too much about what others should think and do.
The second time I watched that video, I concluded that Taaffe must have gotten his butt kicked often because — it is gone. He doesn’t have one.
Okay, so now Frank says Trayvon was 19??? I guess it’s just like his tv story…it gets bigger and Trayvon gets older with each telling.
@Lynn. Did you catch the part where he said “If you’re a scared Black male …” Talk about profiling!!! I responded out loud at the computer screen, “What if you’re a scared White male? How about a scared Zebra striped male? Pick a color. Any color. Scared is scared.”
@6:20 Frank says the clubhouse was where Fogen was parked and Trayvon “first circles his car”. So was it here or on TTL where Trayvon did the circle stare down that Fogen dreamed up?
Staying with GZ’s NEN call, he said, “And he’s coming towards me now.” That simply means that GZ had driven ahead of Trayvon. At no time did GZ tell dispatch that Trayvon was walking around his car nor circling his car. And, you’re right Lynn. Where Taaffe said Trayvon circled, and GZ says he circled, are two different places.
Did anyone else catch the sight of those 2 trees in the cut-through between the buildings to the “T”?
I like how when Dave starts questioning Frank it is suddenly…Gotta go! The “bitch” called Sandford. But you live here says Dave. lol
Frank couldn’t come up with explanations on how it took 36-40 seconds for them to walk to the T and only 10-12 for Fogen. He couldn’t explain how it was 40 or so feet in from the T that the body was.
He then starts spewing that CTH crap about Trayvon buying blunts and hiding them in Brandi’s house before returning in wait for Fogen at the T’s invisible bushes. If Fogen said he’s running and then bolts out the truck, leisurely “walking” to the T in 12 seconds flat, then continuing on to “find an address” and claims to get attacked on his stroll back to the T…just when did TM have the time to get home and back like the CTH/Frank claims???
Keep them talking Dave. They’ll keep proving the lies.
Lynn, Taaffe and the CTH are what I call bigotvoyants. Trayvon would have to be clairvoyant to do what they allege. He would have pre-knowledge that GZ would get out of his truck and follow him on foot. He would know the EXACT timing it would take GZ, where he would walk, and when and where he would return.
Their scheme ultimately reduces GZ to a puppet whose mind can be read so that Trayvon would know everything GZ was thinking. It also makes GZ the aggressor because it places GZ in a realm of being able to avoid confrontation, if only his mind was unable to be read.
If TM did go home, a) why didn’t he leave the tea and candy, b) why didn’t he get at least a butter knife, and c) won’t the brother/kid waiting for him have knowledge that TM came and left a second time, and d) wouldn’t Tracy Martin be aware that something was wrong and report it to police sooner. Going home and returning is totally ridiculous!
Diane, that is why I call them bigotvoyants. If Trayvon went home, he would have to know in advance that GZ would still be out there looking for him, where he would be, and the exact timing that GZ would reach the T to be confronted. Oh — and let’s not forget that Trayvon would also need to have superhuman ability to disappear at will.
But remember GZ’s story — Trayvon asked, “You got a problem?” What “thug” asks a question and waits on an answer before opening up a can of whip-ass?
So, for the bigotvoyants’ theory to work, along with GZ’s story, Trayvon should have said, “Hey man. I’m here to beat your ass so stand still now while I punch you in the nose.”
Xna, I teach high school and deal with teenagers 24/7, Sunday through Saturday on the Internet. That is not the language of teenagers. How could he mentor Black kids and think this makes sense. (almost spelled “since.” It’s bedtime) Merry Christmas Xena!
LOL@Diane. Yeah, it’s about time I turned in too. (Wanted to get something out of the oven first so there’s not much cooking to be done when I do get up.) You’re right. GZ doesn’t know how to communicate with kids, teens, or even adults. Just look at how he talked to ShelLIE when he was in jail.
Talk about profiling
Since frank house got rob by a black male
It stand to reason that any black male by his house
Or in the neighbor is a thief or up to no good
Did GZ when he call the police in the past it was about
a black male up to no good
From frank house to the mailbox area I would go to
get out of the run.
If it was raining off and on as a black male I wouldn’t
stand under someone porch someone would think
I am up to no good
When Frank was ask where are the bushes TM
was hiding he could not show them
Frank makes up some excuse about “some bitch” and needs to make a hasty retreat as Dave asks him to show the bushes Trayvon allegedly popped out of….iffy part of the story yeah Frank …there are none.
Taaffe’s Tour doesn’t prove anything, but it does give him a chance to pretend to be important. Just imagine that everything he said was true, for argument’s sake. Then:
1. Trayvon went to the 7-11 to buy a blunt to smoke weed.
2. Trayvon arranged for other guys to buy a blunt for him because he tried at first but was refused when the clerk told him he was too young to purchase tobacco.
3. Trayvon then saw Fogen, “first circled his car,” and took a knowingly wrong way back to his father’s house.
4. Trayvon then ran to his father’s house because he was a “young scared black male” and he dropped off the weed but held onto his skittles and iced tea, and came back out of his father’s house again, to confront “the dude,” who he knew had gotten out of his car and gone wandering through the RTL neighborhood looking for a street sign (yeah, that’s it!).
5. Trayvon then, having proven himself a devious person (doesn’t take the proper route home; purchases and hides weed), confronts and tries to kill “the dude” and gets killed.
WOW, from this you have to conclude:
* 17-year-old Black males sure are stupid; and
* There is still no reason for Fogen to either follow Trayvon Martin or to find an address when he should be getting his hungry a$$ to the store to buy groceries for his decent American family.
So what does the Taaffe Tour prove?
Nothing. Still Murder-2. Just Murder-2 of a kid who took the wrong route home and was so dumb he dropped off the weed but kept the skittles.
But someone who calls in to complain about Frank Taaffe in their backyard is a “bitch” although someone who calls the police because he sees Trayvon in someone’s backyard was just doing his civic duty.
Bottom Line: Taaffe has nothing to say except, “We’re allowed to kill young scared Black males because somebody stole a TV” and “I believe everything Fogen and I figured out to say to the cops and I can repeat most of it whenever asked to do so.”
Frank’s story makes Trayvon out to be Black Dynamite
like hot damn
the kid does not get tired?
He ran around as much as Frank claimed, but never got tired, and the former bouncer (Fogenhats) who was totally refreshed and energized, who has lots of experience dealing out violence to others, was powerless, when he expends absolutely no physical energy at all by driving and walking to get an address (Fogenhats)?
I notice they always make Trayvon out to be some superhuman athletic kid, who’s height gets taller and taller with each telling (much like the story)
So not only in their alleged story does
Trayvon smoke weed and buy weed (which btw, makes people tired, sleepy, happy, and hungry, not athletic)
But Trayvon ran over a few miles altogether
Then right after attacked a former bouncer who weighed over 200 pounds (that is a lot of weight and I would like to see someone easily bench that without getting tired)
Commenced an MMA beating and tackle of the defendant
And then talked after getting shot in the heart
and is also able to appear and disappear at will
but yet the defendant was able to shoot him
and the victim never got any blood or dna at all on his hands or sleeves, after repeatedly pummeling the defendant with his hands
&…
the defendant’s voice changes to a teenager’s voice screaming for help at only one moment in time
LMAO how do they sell that nonsense?
Well, when they started selling that nonsense is when people stopped buying. GZ received the most in donations just after his arrest. Shortly thereafter, his re-enactment video was released, providing his numerous inconsistencies with his NEN call, and physical demonstrations that are inconsistent with physical evidence. The donations slowed down.
Even current-day Zidiots only “sell that nonsense,” not because they think GZ is innocent (if they did, there would be no need to lie and attack others), but because they are angry with the idea that Blacks believe they are equal and how dare non-Blacks agree with them (They don’t think in the realm of evidence — just race.)
Xena- they also don’t deal in the realm of justice. Hence there are people like us to make it happen.
Sent from my iPod
True. When people believe they are superior to others, whatever it is they believe makes them superior, becomes their form of justice. For instance, bullies believe that their ability to make others fearful is justice and Zidiots demonstrate bully personalities. Since they are against equality for all, they resist by turning everything around to use against others. Thus, they now hawk about reverse racism and have pimped Junior out to repeat the mantra, not realizing how ignorant he sounds.
You left out the important collapsed lungs. This is very important because, with a punctured lung that allows the air to escape through the wound, means that Trayvon is no longer able to compress the air in his lungs and/or force it through his vocal chords, with enough force to create any sounds. Less, is he able to operate his vocal chords to allow the very low, residual air pressure, make any sounds at all. He can’t even gasp for air, any operation of his diaphragm is impeded by heart blood filling the chest cavity, reducing it’s effective ranges.
Not to mention that the shock of a heart lung injury has to be so immediately and powerfully traumatizing it’s doubtful he’d even remain conscious at all. Less, be able to act in a normal manner at all.
Try this on for size: Ever have a liquid go “down the wrong pipe?”, have you been able to speak almost immediately? Or did it take a few moments before you regained this ability? If it took a few moments before you could either speak or cough, then realize that
Trayvon also had, not only blood flowing into this lungs, causing the same distress as if he’d inhaled liquid, he also had heart blood flowing into his chest cavity, severe pain and choking, while his ability to move air in and out was being eliminated by his filling chest cavity. His first reflex, if he had any, would have been to either cough or draw breath, not to say any words. Just as a normal person would after inhaling a liquid.
There is absolutely no NEED for a self-defense law. It is already legal in every state in the union to defend yourself. If you are charged with murder, you show self-defense and it’s the same as if you ask for a SYG hearing and show self-defense; this SYG stuff arose from a certain KIND of self-defense that referred to you defending yourself in your own turf, such as your car, your house, etc. It’s not new and different; it’s new and wrong.
It puts in cops’ discretion a decision that should not be cops’ to make. If someone has killed and the cops believe it is self-defense, there should be a form they fill out and have the person sign, indicating that they believe the evidence shows it to be self-defense. That should go before a judge just as if a charge based on a probable cause affidavit would go before a judge. If there is a decision that it was self-defense, at least it has not been a little “fix” in the cop shop.
Think of it: when a cop kills someone, his buddies don’t just get together and say, “it was self-defense” and let it go. It goes up to a department specially designed to handle that. It is not a decision made by other cops of the same level. And they EXPECT that it may someday happen.
This “shortcut” is just a way for police departments to hide corruption and give “kill for free” cards to their buddies. And since it affects civil suits too, it is unconstitutional as all get-out. AND deprives the state of grand jury investigations; AND deprives the state of appellate rights.
Totally unconstitutional and part of the “new US order” of going to corporate feudalism. Corporations get armed and shoot us down if we protest anything. No unions, no protests, no back-talk, we’re on our way to unspoken slavery and we’re going there Black folks first.
Proper investigation for all killings
I agree. From everything I have read about Stand Your Ground, it was intended for homeowners who shoot and kill intruders. It is mainly to prevent civil penalties. I remember a long time ago when some people would shoot and kill an intruder & not be charged, but were sued and lost the case in civil court because the person was unarmed. Self-defense should cover you in terms of criminal charges, so it leads me to believe that SYG is mainly for civil immunity. I agree with SYG in terms of civil liability since anyone that legitimately kills someone in self-defense should not be sued for millions of dollars for a wrongful death.
Florida’s SYG law specifically says that you must attempt to flee and show that you no longer wish to use force if you are the aggressor. The law still needs to be changed so that an aggressor can’t invoke SYG under any circumstances, especially if they pursue & kill a fleeing suspect. A man in Florida received immunity after chasing down and stabbing a car thief to death. The judge sided with him claiming he had a right to make a citizens arrest and also retrieve his stolen property. Nobody should be allowed to chase down a criminal and murder them because they would not submit to force. This law was not designed to encourage or protect individuals who engage in vigilante behavior.
Dennis, I know the florida case you’re talking about. Actually the thief was stealing car radios. The thief turned and swung the bag of radios at his pursuer. Then he was stabbed. The incident was caught on cctv. The tv show the first 48 profiled this story.
Considering that ALEC is behind the SYG laws, I’d say that the purpose to provide corporate protection from lawsuits when their security people kill. Individuals trying to use SYG are less likely to prevail.
I hope i’m not out of line maybe because i get so emotional about this case,but i think Tracy martin need to snap at back the sanford police for calling him a liar. the very people who were going to let the scum wad who killed his son get away with it have the nerve to call him a liar. The very police department who was stupid enough to buy Zimmerman ridiculous tales. He has got to come out strong tell them what he thinks.Now is not the time to be a nice guy.I know it’s not his way,but some times you need to speak up.
I hope i’m not out of line maybe because i get so emotional about this case,=.,But i think Tracy martin need to snap at back the sanford police for calling him a liar. the very people who were going to let the scum wad who killed his son get away with it have the nerve to call him a liar. The very police department who was stupid enough to buy Zimmerman ridiculous tales. He has got to come out strong tell them what he thinks.Now is not the time to be a nice guy.I know it’s not his way,but some times you need to speak up.
Tracy Martin is listed as a witness for the state. He will have opportunity to tell the truth under oath and be cross-examined. Actually, what I’ve wanted him to say is, “I never before heard my son scream like that, but I know it’s his voice.” That then gives the state opportunity when cross-examining Papa Zim to ask, “Under what circumstances did you hear the defendant scream like that?”
It had better been a life or death situation, because that is what GZ claims in one story, while claiming in another story that he yelled for help so the cops could located him. Logically, that means after he shot Trayvon, he didn’t want the cops to locate him quickly — needed time to make a phone call, pose for pictures, talk to neighbors, rub his head — stuff like that.
Yea, and when he was rubbing his over sized empty head, he was rubbing it with some of Trayvon’s blood! this thing will say and do anything to get out of going where he most definitely belongs. also, he was wanting his house arrest lifted and his GPS bracelet removed because, he was going to make a run for it. Mark O’money and team were willing to help him do just that. this attorney needs to be disbarred and the same goes for West. they are officers of the justice system and yet they were more than willing to help a murderer flee from justice. smdh
There is a new bill being introduced in Florida:
* There would be no stand-your-ground defense for someone who provokes or pursues an assailant.
* Police would have more discretion to decide whether the shooter can be arrested.
No more chasing down criminals and stabbing them to retrieve your property. It is ridiculous that this was left out of the Stand Your Ground from the beginning. If you provoke the violence against yourself or put yourself in harms way, you do not deserve the protection.
I am not a Florida resident, but I urge everyone who is to get the word out to make sure these politicians pass this much needed bill.
http://wlrn.org/post/start-fight-then-no-stand-your-ground-defense-you-under-broward-senators-bill
IMO, unless it’s to protect home or business, police should NOT have discretion, and an investigation should always be required. What SYG does is give the police powers of the judiciary, and that is in violation of this nation’s and states’ separation of powers.
If states are going to have SYG, then they should also have a separate SYG task force to investigate. What makes GZ’s case a violation of this separation of powers, is that the SPD did not have lab, forensics, neither all witness statements, before Bill Lee and Wolfinger said there was no evidence to arrest to GZ. They acted as judge and jury.
I agree. SYG needs much more than police / prosecutorial discretion. Any time someone dies in an encounter, there should be some sort of grand jury / court hearing with some very deep digging. It’s clear that too many people are taking SYG as some sort of killing privilege.
ALL shootings should be charged with proper judicial procedures to determine culpability (and that includes cop shootings, imo). Cops should NOT, in any circumstance have the right to give a pass.
It is difficult to plan out a good Self Defense statute but I def want them to give extra punishment for abusing the statute
In the Trayvon Case, it is already bad enough he was terrorized and then murdered while he was screaming for help
but
to not be allowed to have his soul rest in peace and deal with the extracurricular slander and lies from the defendant, is heartbreaking and I believe it makes his crime more aggravated
You are right Jun and, I for one am sick of the way this kid has been treated in death by *RACIST WHITES* in this country. once again I will say, there has never been another child disrespected in such a manner. even the Columbine massacre. the same can also be said of the others who went into schools and universities and shot and killed innocent kids. Trayvon never harmed anyone and yet he is being belittled and disrespected in death, only because of the color that GOD made him. these people are definitely morally bankrupt in every sense of the word.
I wanted to wish the Professor and Crane-Station a wonderful Christmas. And to all the posters here, thank you for your conviction, humor, and thoughtful posts. May Sabrina Fulton & Tracy Martin find peace in the New Year. Nothing can replace your beautiful son, but may your hearts be full knowing there are so many of us that feel Trayvon is our child as well. May blessing surround your family at this special time of year. And may justice prevail at trial.
Go To The Conservative TinFoil Hats for a Special Message from Robert Zimmerman Sr.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/
Too bad that Papa Zim had to initiate the reach out to them. 8 comments with most of them trying to interpret what he said. SMH.
It was disgusting. How that family can continue to publish such self-serving crap is beyond my ability to stomach.
Sent from my iPod
@cielo62, they’re like an old vinyl record that’s been played so many times that only scratches are heard.
None if my responses are allowed. Oh well.
Sent from my iPod
More hateable every day.
I left a few messages on there, reminding them about what happens when you use Gods name in vain. Even worse when invoking God to protect a murderer. None got posted but they DID get read first.
Sent from my iPod
They banned me also. I raised a bit of a ruckus and no more posts for ole racer there anymore. We must be doing something right !!
@racerrodig – Funny, I finally went to the hp, clicked on your name, and you didn’t exist anymore!
I guess fogen, and family, didn’t really appreciate your opposing views.
Imagine! What an honor to be banned by the Most Hated Family in America!
Sent from my iPod
I stand a little taller knowing that. I have asked questions on every site they have about the obvious issues andf much to my surprise, nary an answer.
Yeah, nothing like trying to stack the deck in your favor. I have 3 friends there however who speak for me.
Jun says:
December 24, 2012 at 2:50 pm
I dont believe he has a case with NBC at all
It was a couple editors for a certain show who edited the tape to air it
and the fact remains that his statements were not altered from their meaning or fullness
The defendant who is the murderer of Trayvon, did specifically state:
1) He was suspicious
2) Because he was walking around looking about
3) He was looking or staring at him
4) He looked black
5) He was a kid, late teens
6) He accused him of conducting break ins
7) He allegedly looked at all the houses (I do not know how Trayvon accomplished this feat in a matter of 20 seconds)
8) He’s an asshole who always gets away
9) He’s a fucking coon
10) Shit, he is running
11) He ran
12) He’s running down the street
13) Yes he was following him
Then later there are mass 911 calls, including one that captured a kid screaming for his life, which turned out to be the same kid that the Fogenhats was stalking earlier
Okay
So, a black kid, is not allowed to look at Zimmernuts, he is not allowed to walk down the street, because he is a black teenager, otherwise he is an asshole who always gets away and a fucking coon?
& This was all stated before he continued stalking and terrorizing this kid, before murdering him
………@Jun its safe to say the defendant was not acting in a reasonable manner the evening thease tragic avoidable events unravelled.He could have defused the situation in a safe manner .Simply roll his window down stop by Trayvon.Explain your nw ask if he needs assistance .I mentor a couple kids your age ..Its raining you want a ride home?…O h talkin to your sweetheart I get it .Sorry for bothering you but we had a few break ins an that..Night.End of story but no he took every opertunity to up the ante..First of he never spotted him at cornfed saltwaterdafttafffes house thats a lie..First contact at mailboxes.Quite possable a tip off..Thats why when Serrino or Sinngleton asked what arroused his susspisioun.He waffled about looking about in the rain an not looking like a hard core athlete..HARDCORE was leakage because he was thinking hardcoregang member when he first laid eyes on TRAYVON,,Interestingly an another give away through leakage..He also said one of the other things aroused his crook radar..Was he didnt look like the type that lived there an wouldnt be out collecting mail.Or words to those effect.So the Mailbox Pavillion thingy was in his mind because thats where he first saw or heard Trayvon was located..Think about it if he had used the cut through at Taffes an was walking by gz an his car .If he wanted to get out the rain till it died down chillax an talk to Dee Dee an plus be out of sight of any creepy men .You wouldnt head to the mailbox pavillion it offers mimmimall shelter………………….No you would take the path between the club house an pool .Wich removes you from sight of anyone in a vechicle .Has a huge big awwning stroke patio covering roof offering complete protection from the rain.Plus a couple of benches to sit down an realy chill an talk to double D in dry comfort…………………………………………………………He didnt use this as any off us would because he never entered via F Taffes cut through .Of all the places it has to be right by his cohorts .An he even says dureing the re enactment…We have had break in recently I called for this adress An also this adress he points to f taffes neighbours has been broken into ya da ya da da .Yep we are talking about the night you murdered an innnnocent not crimes of the past.An from the mailboxes as Trayvon was telling DD a creeps folllowing him in his car.The accused was slowly creeping along about 3 miles as slow as poss intimidateing his prey with full highbeams .Thats when Trayvon explains he is gonna wait to run untill he reach a point where he can run from the back..DD sayin no run now run now.But she didnt know what we know Trayvon was waiting to reach the path leading up to the T an dogwalk take a shrp left an bolt straight to his Pops backdoor an safety.Wich is exactly what he done gz is cerbcrawling slightly behind his prey suddenly as they reach the bend in street Trayvon bolts full stride into the darkness totally catching accussed of gaurd an is at the T an rounded running towards Brandi Greens.Just as gz is leaveing his truck an heading up the path still talking to disspatch…Many things puzzle me re timelines an precice movements .Theres a few facts Im certain of like gz murdered Trayvon ..Another is he never spotted him at F Taffes house,,Another is that he first encounter began at mai;l boxes .Another an this is the one Im most sure off the suspect accused defendant call him what you wish.Will be found guilty.
Hey Colin
I think I get what you saying but one comment is to paragraph what you are writing, as it is easier to read off a phone or computer screen
I am not 100% sure of the path the defendant took, but he def cut off the kid somewhere south of the back pathway, and then herded the kid north, and then confronted and attacked and terrorized the kid without provocation
It is a situation where the only party who had self defense rights was the victim Trayvon because he even attempted to get away from the aggressive situation from the defendant, but the defendant, insisted on escalating and instigating the situation
and even when the defendant caught up to the victim, all he did was try to talk to the defendant, and then the defendant lunged at him aggressively out the blue, hence the victim yelling “Get Off” which can be heard repeated onto the 911 scream tape
and when the defendant had full control of the situation, and the kid was too scared to fight and had no knowledge of how to fight, he still chose to murder the kid while the kid screamed for help
It is definitely second degree murder
He should of just let the situation go because Trayvon was not a threat to anyone nor did he deserve his rights infringed up until he was murdered, and then had to endure being molested by the defendant’s hands
The simple fact is if not for the defendant, there would be no struggle or dangerous situation, nor confrontation or encounter, and a kid would still be alive
The defendant definitely deserves prison IMO
I’d say life with no parole as it is really aggravated that he had a physical, mental and experienced combat advantage and he still chose to terrorize a kid with it, and add to that a gun, and the after killing acts of molesting the kid’s body with his hands, and his continuous slander and lies
Oh I’m so evil. 👿 I thought of a Christmas decoration I wanted to make but having only thought of it this evening, I guess it’s a no-go. I wanted to go to the craft store and buy about a dozen of those round bulbs that are sort of imitation wood (they’re made from papier mache) and kind of speckle some black hair on them like a crew cut and then dribble the blood on them just like the rivulets we see in the “poor me” photographs. Slap two ears (from dried apple slices) on each and I would have “Forgaments” for a big CHREE! (Or maybe just a wreath?) (Could I get sued for this?)
Merry Christmas, all. Chanukah is “Rededication” so let’s all come back on strong after the holidays! Love ya —
Malisha,
I think his “bloody face” photo silkscreened on soccer balls might be a big seller 😉
LD, that is the best idea I have heard yet! Especially because you can’t touch them with your hands (UGH who would want to?)! Quick, file a design patent for it, you’ll be rich!
No matter our creed, no borders matter, there is no race or colour here.
The bond we share is justice and caring – only because it is the right thing to do.
Whatever your faith may be or not be, it is just a really good thing for everyone to take time out and celebrate peace, love, and prosperity for all, to recognize that our lives have a beautiful purpose – to take care of each other and to make this world a better place.
I am grateful to have found you all. Happy holidays, friends.
Love this song. Thanks for sharing this, grahase.
Best of everything, Grahase.
Blessings to you.
Happy Holidays to you also and, may you have a most blessed and joyous 2013.
Click to access 20120913_miamidade.pdf
This is what it is all about, folks.
We are trying to take away a murderer’s fame. I believe it is only important to know his name if he is running around, but the state of Florida has him on a leash. If we are to mention his name, at least we should remind everyone that he is the killer of a kid.
HA HA Have to share this one. I sent my son a web-page advertising hoodies with headphones built into them. He e-mailed back to me, “Sounds like a bad idea. You wouldn’t be able to hear Zimmerman shouting at you while the music was on.”
Back at you, Colin Black. Have a merry wassail on Boxer’s Day too. 🙂
ps missed out THEASE brilliant justice seeekers from my merry christmas shout….. mainstreamfair JBmission Marinade Dave LMPappa Nefertari05 DennisWhonose blackbutterfly patricia bigboi an so many many others appoligies to any ive missed but not forgotten just like Trayvon MISSED BUT NEVER FORGOTTEN.
I don’t think Trayvon’s motive for going to the 7-11 is very deep, and I don’t think he’s particularly likely to know the three other young persons who were with Burgess when he was arrested. Remember, when Trayvon was in RTL, he was not there to socialize and meet new folks; he was there to visit his father and at this particular visit, to stay there while he was suspended from school. His mom did not want him in his own neighborhood while being off school, and that’s wise. While he was up there in RTL, however, he was on the phone with DeeDee constantly. I think his mom might have wanted him to chill a little bit with the DeeDee thing (and that may be why DeeDee did not attend the funeral, being embarrassed, in effect, before his parents). Maybe Mom and Dad both thought a “cooling off period” would be best for Trayvon and he didn’t really feel particularly “cooled off” and I think he was on the phone with DeeDee and practically oblivious to other things going on such as the time of the game, other kids in RTL, or any of that. After all, we didn’t get a bunch of interviews with RTL teen-agers after the shooting, did we?
I think he went to the store to get his end-of-the-day conversations in with his main squeeze, and he would have taken a little bit longer as well had he not been killed. I don’t think it was about guys at RTL, or about blunts or cigarettes, or about anything complicated. Seventeen-year-old kid with a few minor run-ins at school? It says “girlfriend is getting you distracted right now” to me. And that’s no insult to DeeDee. He was a great kid, and she was probably a great kid too, and they should have had a chance to go through all their teen-aged angst together before breaking up in the usual style complete with sad songs and pet peeves.
But now another thought comes to me. Perhaps, in addition to interrogating Trayvon, Fogen wanted to herd Trayvon (or “march him” if he was compliant, which he was not) over to his schtruck, so he could be standing there by the schtruck with his quarry when the cops arrived. Of course, we only have Fogen’s word about where his schtruck was parked, and I find his explanations strange and disjointed. That in addition to his general dishonesty.
But I’m not terribly fond of that idea, just passing through.
What I think now, and of this idea I AM terribly fond, is that the whole incident was about “THE GUN.” I believe Fogen was getting in trouble in the neighborhood because of THE GUN. I think he wanted to show the HOA and the NW and everybody who was complaining against him that he really needed THE GUN. I think he provoked an occasion to pull THE GUN and use THE GUN no matter what his ultimate goal was. In that respect, he’s like the NRA people who always show up right in the very town where a bunch of innocent people have been killed to start blabbing about the need for more THE GUNs to protect people from people with guns. Fogen wanted to prove that everybody in RTL needed him to be there with THE GUN at all times. That’s what I think motivated him to sacrifice a young person on his personal altar to the GUN GOD. He made Trayvon Martin into a human sacrifice because he had a savage, murderous religion and a cruel, bloodthirsty deity. THE GUN.
I can just picture Fogen blowing the smoke from the barrel afterward.
Happy happy, all!
@Marisha….IDK, I mean he had 40 bucks on him, he was outside the 7-11for more time than normal, maybe it was already pooring down. His mother probably was not thinking of Deedee when she sent him with his dad. It was more like he needs some re-reinforcement for his behavior and it was prob more of a discipline thinng than a DeeDee thing. But….IT…..DOES….NOT….MATTER…..FORGEN….if u r here…..FORGEN WAS STILL…. WAYYYYYYYY out of LINE!!
sorry for typos and extra spaces
But he does play with neighborhood kids in the grass out behind the houses, we know that. Neither him nor his father, nor Ms Green would know of the Burgess matters, only GZ would know that, and he would have an opportunity to use them to contact TM, Trayvon would not be privy to much neighborhood gossip, so he’d probably accept the acquaintance of them or one of them. That would be all that would be needed.
It’s a very simple and effective trick, often used to lure people to where the surprise party is to be held. You get someone who the party boy/girl, doesn’t associate with his friends or family, like a neighbor who he just barely knows, that keeps the party boy in the dark. Whereas someone closer to him just might give things away.
DD didn’t go to the funeral for a variety of reasons, I think the best one is, she was advised not to reveal herself. If she went, who knows who could have identified her and what might happen with that information. It was a wise decision to be sure, given what we’re seeing. and Crump already knows that there’s something like racism already at work, so they’ve got to protect any youthful witness from the start.
Be careful when using “run ins at school” that smacks of physical altercations. Those were all very minor and passive infractions, but we already know that blacks are punished more severely than white kids, so it’s hardly a wonder so much was made of these incidents.
Claiming that costume jewelry is jewelry that might be stolen, I’ve never heard of such nonsense. A white kid found with a screwdriver and some costume jewelry wouldn’t have even been recorded.
But, for a black kid a screwdriver becomes either a burglary tool or a dangerous weapon. Go figure! It doesn’t even matter that Trayvon had displayed an aptitude for working on mechanical things. See how easily that is forgotten?
As far as the “herding” goes, I think GZ was actually trying to herd Trayvon back to the T, but he was prevented from doing so when witnesses began to appear. Remember, witnesses would place GZ, far south of the T. So, if he herded him back there, his story couldn’t possibly work anymore, so he stopped and decided he had to finish things right there. He appears to be a bit addled by drugs, by comparison to his normal speech, heard on his previous 911 and NeN calls, to the speech patterns heard on 2/26/12. Now he’s slurring his speech, he doesn’t do that on other days, he speaks clearly and crisply. The difference is both dramatic and highly remarkable.
So far, I’m still working on GZ suddenly realizing that grabbing and holding this kid, after having followed him against police advice, and having his weapon on him, if not already drawn, put him in a very bad position if Trayvon lived to tell about it and explain what had actually occurred, as opposed to the lies GZ is seeking to tell.
But that view will change, depending on what we are able to learn about who assisted him that night.
Kids weren’t questioned because the police were not really interested in investigating this case, they were actually trying to cover it up, so they’d cast as shallow a net as possible. They even excluded possible adult witnesses and nearby addresses from their so called canvas. And they let his truck go entirely. Whatever they could do to limit the investigation was done. Even allowing GZ to refuse a trip to the ER, which, in a homicide investigation should have been mandatory, since his wounds were being claimed to be part of the crime scene activity, they should have been subjected to high level professional investigation. Because they were also evidence, but they were not examined professionally, as part of the attempt to not discover as much as they could fail to discover.
You’re absolutely right that nothing Trayvon ever did would have been even NOTICED if he had been a preppy white kid instead of a preppy Black kid. Both he and his brother were definitely preppy, though — can’t deny that. As to the screwdriver being in his backpack, I was checking in at a courthouse once and when I went through the metal detector, they confiscated a can opener! I remembered that I had taken a can opener with me to New York so I could lunch easily in public parks as I ran errands, but then forgot it. I’m sure I would have a criminal record a yard long by now if I were black and found in possession of that dangerous weapon! (They gave it back to me when I left and I am having memorial tunafish as we speak.) Women’s jewelry? Wow, what a “tell” — definitely a thug. Thugs always carry women’s costume jewelry in case there’s a shoot out and they want to throw things around to distract the attention of the shooters, by refracted light flashes of the car headlights off the rhinestones. A baggie with “residue” in it? Do they have one of those expensive testing machines in the school to identify marijuana or do they just do it by sniffer dogs (“That black lab, man, he’s groovy”)?
It’s a disgrace what we “learn” through what we’re expecting. Folks at the Outhouse expect that their own feces are odor free but somehow, they always smell trouble from others…
The conclusions they jump to about the mj baggie are unwarranted, simply because they’re found all over the place, and kids often pick them up because they look interesting. Remember those crack vials that used to be found on the streets? When you saw one, you could practically look around and see where it most likely came from.
When a friend purchased a house in a neighborhood, I went for a visit, I spotted a few of those crack vials, the ones with the colored tops/caps, laying around, I picked one up to show him that there were users around. While walking to a coffee shop, we saw kids picking them up, because of the colors, they didn’t know what they were but I guess they looked like toys to them, or strange candy holders etc., So, just having empty containers isn’t enough to make any assessment, but, I guess these lowly school security guards want to play Columbo every chance they get. Best do it with black kids though, their parents raise less of a stink about it.
Anyway there have been studies done that conclude that blacks are punished more often and more harshly than whites and for even more minor infractions. Hardly a wonder that Trayvon has a disciplinary record. The fact that it’s not more serious shows that he’s only being tagged for extremely minor infractions, all of which are passive rule breaking, if they actually were rule breaks at all, and not just someone jumping to conclusions. After all, none of those claims were ever subjected to testing.
Joyous Holiday Season to all here!
Each night a child is born is a holy night
A time for singing
A time for wondering
A time for worshipping
Each night a child is born is a holy night.
(Song sung in Unitarian Universalist churches at Christmas Eve service, words by Sofia Lyon Fahs)
I really like that. Each child is a wonder and a promise. Each one brings us “goodness and light”. Merry Christmas!
Sent from my iPod
LadyStClaire, I can’t find your rhyme. You posted it this morning?
Breaking news: Voldemort is being sued by a security company because his blood money has run dry. The article also alleges that the company told O’Mara that his security was excessive which is further evidence that Voldemort is trying to use the race card to play victim.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2252780/Now-George-Zimmerman-SUED-failing-pay-bodyguard-Trayvon-Martin-killer-wife-accused-withholding-27-000.html
Thank you xena ,malisha and to all that have posted for justice for trayvon and all of our children.
Omg I was reading early on and was watching law and order special victims and it was called vigilante justice and one guy made a statement “this sounds like that case in Florida where that kid trayvon martin got shot” , I almost fell off my chair. Yes !!!!!
damn! i missed it???!!
BTW 1025 comments!! yippie i was waiting for a 1000!!!
@Patricia. I thank you and all others here, and especially the Professor for providing us with a place to share, joke, laugh, cry.
I missed Law and Order but have a feature of catching missed programs, so maybe I can find it. There are only a handful of folks who do not see the truth of what GZ did and why. As we see by the lack of his financial donors, they don’t support GZ as a person but rather, that he killed a Black “thug.” If he had 27,000 supporters to send him one dollar each, he could pay his outstanding security bill.
I heard it too! I wonder how many potential jurors heard it.
Here comes another lawsuit against NBC!
In my neck of the woods, Law and Order comes on the USA Network, or am I thinking about re-runs?
First run episodes of Law & Order SVU are on NBC.
Nah – they didn’t say his name in association with it. But here is an interesting article:
The February shooting of an unarmed Mr. Martin by a community watch participant sent 20th Century Fox racing to retool the title of a comedy unfortunately called “Neighborhood Watch.” (It was called just “The Watch” at its July release.)
I dont believe he has a case with NBC at all
It was a couple editors for a certain show who edited the tape to air it
and the fact remains that his statements were not altered from their meaning or fullness
The defendant who is the murderer of Trayvon, did specifically state:
1) He was suspicious
2) Because he was walking around looking about
3) He was looking or staring at him
4) He looked black
5) He was a kid, late teens
6) He accused him of conducting break ins
7) He allegedly looked at all the houses (I do not know how Trayvon accomplished this feat in a matter of 20 seconds)
8) He’s an asshole who always gets away
9) He’s a fucking coon
10) Shit, he is running
11) He ran
12) He’s running down the street
13) Yes he was following him
Then later there are mass 911 calls, including one that captured a kid screaming for his life, which turned out to be the same kid that the Fogenhats was stalking earlier
Okay
So, a black kid, is not allowed to look at Zimmernuts, he is not allowed to walk down the street, because he is a black teenager, otherwise he is an asshole who always gets away and a fucking coon?
& This was all stated before he continued stalking and terrorizing this kid, before murdering him?
Is he allowed to go back and change transcript to “Shit! He’s skipping!”
I agree Patricia, what you guys are doing is huge and it impacts all because can’t nobody in Texas, this great red/nra/syg state tell me anything different. I fight for Trayvon in my state but you guys do all the hard work and give me something to fight with!!
I sometimes wonder if Zimmernuts Fogenhats the 3rd is online because I swear he goes online to argue with people
Sure he does, and he follows the same pattern. First, he tries to distract from the subject of himself. That’s usually by regurgitating the mantra about his head being beaten on concrete. If that fails, he attacks by name calling and demeaning. If that fails, he progresses to attacking Reverends Sharpton and Jackson. If that fails, he progresses to attacking Trayvon’s parents. That is generally followed with diatribes of how the case will be dismissed at the next hearing, or after the next election, or after the next holiday. The anger speaks loudly.
His name on HP id newbee 100. His dad is LetJusticePrevail. I attack them there all the time and get him all riled up. Being the mental midget he is, he then goes into a 1st person account all the time. Of course, having someone in the computer / LE field that confirmed this by the IP address just made things that much sweeter.
@racerrdig, what is HP? and is newbee100 so called GZ?
What else does he have to do? He won’t go out. The security detail has abandoned him. His new money manager has him on a strict allowance and his GPS jewelry won’t let him leave Seminole County. Might as well work off some of that aggression online.
Sent from my iPod
he is working on his book!! He wil finish in jail!
It has been proven he is on HP as newbee 100. RZ sr is LetJusticePrevail and his brother under several names.
Aha! Racerdog, now I will go back to HP and read their posts again. It is possible that the SP could link these to GZ to support lack of remorse, racism, intent, etc.?
The feds are no doubt tracking GZ’s internet and cell phone usage. Their investigation is ongoing because GZ continues giving them more evidence.
LOL
I believe he has tried to argue with me
See that? They use several names.
Fogen’s got the following: Newbee100, fightslikeagirl713, screamsandwhines2much, capillarylacerations2, datniggytb, pinocchio200thousand, altarboy20112, madatmom29, and “The-Suspect-2262012”
Robert Senior has several as well: Bob-the-Magistrate, LetJusticePrevail, Make-it-up-as-you-go-along, absolutely-my-son-voice, and My-Poor-Baby’s-Nose.
Bro Robert Junior has: Decent-American, I.Q.98plus, DuplicatePassport20110, He-Hit-Me-First, and I’mcuteranyway.
So saying Fogen, Cheorge or defendant’s not so bad, really.
ROFLOL. “He hit me first” sounds just like something Junior would say.
@Xena, I hope the feds are keeping up with his father and brother’s computer activities as well. some of the Trayvon faithful called out his father as being letjusticeprevail and, I’m so glad to know that he is being called out for blogging about his son’s crime of murder. I can’t stand this man and his family because, they all know TugThugboat is guilty as sin. yet they would choose to go on these blog sites and spew their hatred for his innocent victim. this just goes to show what kind of people they really are.
@ladystclaire, because their comments do not address the comments of others, but go off on a mantra tangent, they do more harm to GZ than they realize. Their mocking of Trayvon’s death, distractions, deflections, and demeaning, sends negative energy to GZ. They plant dandelions hoping to get roses, but it doesn’t work that way.
Look at what has happened to him. As though being homeless and unemployed while awaiting trial wasn’t enough, his trust fund is not sufficient to pay the security company, and now he is being sued.
The next suit will no doubt be for non payment of rent.
In hiding is an excuse. He considers himself a celebrity and no one would hire his psycho behind if he were looking for a job. The New BPP think is a crock also. $10,000? It would be cheaper for one or two of them to drive in, take GZ out, and have $9,950 left over after buying gas. It is NOT logical.
@Diane, GZ moved in with the Osterman’s after leaving the police station in the wee hours of the morning the day after he killed Trayvon. He didn’t go into hiding then because of the NBPP. If there were threats then, it wasn’t because he killed Trayvon and was not arrested.
The FBI and the state have his phone records. They might just know from those records the real reason GZ really went into hiding and why he is still fearful now. Personally, his and his family’s whining about being afraid makes me sick.
Why would he go online if one of the bail requirements is to not go online? Can’t he get his bail revoked again?
That would be GREAT! I guess it’s up to his parole officer to report him.
Sent from my iPod
In typical Fogen fashion, he thinks by using a different name he won’t get caught.
I guess he’s not familiar with IP addresses which will give you away,no matter WHAT avatar or handle you use.
Sent from my iPod
Remember, Fogen & his posse all think they are smarter than the rest of the world. When I first got the notion he was one of the most rabid on the internet, I kept asking why & what dog do you have in this fight. I started getting him so riled up, he’d slip and talk as if he was being cross – examined. I ran this by my Federal LE connection, (my sons Godfather) and asked about the IP address. Well to my joy he did confirm what I suspected. Not only Fogen but the entire group.
So when you slapping one of them up one side and down the other, take great pride in knowing they are not fooling anyone.
Two sides – He is probably bored and believes that they can’t prove it’s him.
I hope Professor is all right, Crane Station hasn’t been here in a while, and we need a new thread because this one is taking really long to load.
I’m fine and posted a new article an hour or so ago.
I’m going to open a new thread, so that y’all can continue your discussion there.
Since Malisha put us in the mood by putting words to Christmas music, thought you might enjoy this video.
New video about GZ doctor and his race, now if the doctor classified his as white, that means he must have labeled himself as a white male on his paperwork…
Many Hispanics do – It can be complicated. Here is a breakdown from the census department:
http://www.census.gov/population/estimates/rho.txt
And for some further reading:
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=is+hispanic+considered+white+race&oq=is+hispanic+consid&gs_l=hp.1.1.0l4.1273.5014.0.7299.18.9.0.9.9.0.63.474.9.9.0.les%3B..0.0…1c.1.xNud2K1VFaE&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.cGE&fp=2afa5d44ccb651f3&bpcl=40096503&biw=1280&bih=625
I was shocked to find that many Hispanics have the same skin color issues as many African Americans. The lighter skinned Hispanics are called “white” and held in higher esteem. This is similar to the Negro in the house v.s. the one in the field.
I label myself as a white (ie Caucasian) Hispanic. That’s because being white is my RACE. Being Hispanic is my CULTURE. There are black Hispanics and Native American Hispanics.
Sent from my iPod
Being old school, there was a time when birth certificates only had 3 races, Negro, White, and Oriental. Latinos were considered White. Now, Orientals are considered Asians and Latinos are considered Hispanic, which actually identifies the language of Spain or Hispania and not a race.
I have a friend of Puerto Rican heritage who, as my son describes, is a pretty dark chocolate like a Hersey bar. She was born in the 1950’s and her birth certificate lists her race as “white.” It became more complicated when she gave birth to a caramel colored beautiful baby girl whose dad is from the Dominican Republic and is a White Hispanic.
I always thought your race is whatever your father’s race is but now people are taking advantage of having a choice. Since GZ’s dad is white then he is to be considered white. Do u know what his records, i.e school records or dmv info states?
My understanding has always been that any race mixed with white eliminates “white,” regardless of the race of parents.
Maybe, back in the 50s. Race is now very complicated. As much as it hurts to write this, I am a white Hispanic, like GZ. I look Mediterranean. My brother ( the oldest one) looks Iranian. If we have black ancestry, it sure doesn’t show now.
Sent from my iPod
@Erica. IMO, that’s how GZ wanted it, but he doesn’t look White. Chances are that he has been mistaken for being Mexican and that built his resentment for Mexicans as he expressed on his MySpace page. Now his brother can easily pass for White from Italian descent.
No, I do not.
Ok. For the umpteenth time. Race and culture are two different things. Amongst many Hispanics there is prejudice as well. My family is from Colombia. I resent being mistaken for Mexican. Mexicans are the trailer park trash of the Latino world even though that is not fair, that’s the way it is right now. GZ is a WHITE HISPANIC. Mediterraneans who are more olive skinned are also classified as CAUCASIAN/ white.
Sent from my iPod
@ Erica, i love this subject!
my first issue with GZ and race comes from the information that Glayds might not be his mother biologically, it’s been said he’s actually her sister’s kid. Then there’s a question of whether George Sr. is their real father. They sure don’t look like him. GZ has squinty small eyes and a round face. But since we don’t know what his mother really looks like it’s hard to say who he looks like. He does look like his brother, but with a family that behaves like they have, it’s not hard to imagine both kids were adopted. GZ and RZ have real issues with race that probably have a lot to do with GZSr along with his drinking problems and woman beating. people who don’t have a decent role model growing up tend to question their identity.
Yea, George doesn’t looks like papa at all. Did anyone notice how he changed his appeareance at the first bond hearing. During the reenactment, he clearly looks like he could be a “on the border” looking skinhead but at the bail hearing where he and MOM was playing with his hair, he looks more mexican. I think that was done on purpose!!
A few details about the security company lawsuit against Fogen. Imagine yourself staying at a Resort such as the one these dignitaries chose as a hideout! I hope his benefactors are reading this.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Zimmerman-lawsuit-details-security-plans/-/1637132/17873346/-/10rd3tq/-/index.html
It figures GZ would overestimate his importance. No surprise about the movie-set “security” requirements. Just more evidence that GZ is in an alternative universe.
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It makes me laugh. One time my son and I were called out by neighbors to go with them on a community search team to find a missing four-year-old boy. We drove to a big field where hundreds of people were getting their instructions in groups of six to ten. My group, they kept holding up a picture of the kid and pointing out, “He has on a blue t-shirt.” We fanned out and were beginning our assigned searches when someone came around to tell us that he was wearing a blue t-shirt. I asked my son, quietly, “If we find a four-year-old but the t-shirt is green, do we leave him there?”
LOL! I guess if he had decided to remove that blue t-shirt then you HAVE to believe its just not the droid you’re looking for!
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La-la land.
OMG what a mess! We all knew he didn´t need the kind of security they have been trying to make out with all that spiel about his and Shelly´s, and his family´s lives being in danger! GZ disappeared into “hiding”, their description not mine, with MO as his bodyguard the very same night of the 26th before anyone even knew who he was or what had happened. Before there was any demonstration calling for his arrest and several weeks before the Black Panthers allegedly put a bounty on his head which if true, and that is a big IF, was for his arrest if I recall correctly and not to take him out.
And MOM always thought the security firm was charging too much? What?! They had legal options to resolve this, i.e. challenge the bill with the firm or through the courts, dismiss the security company and find another whose charges they liked better. What you absolutely don´t do is continue with the firm and their services but not pay the bill at least not if you don´t want to be taken to court and see all the dirty laundry come out… anyone who has watched Judge Judy even once knows that much!
Considering what has come out from the security company, they put in a lot of hours
It is just typical Fogenhats mentality to try and enslave people to work for him and submit to his authority
They need to pay them or be quiet
The hotel bill is going to be a real mofo … and the room service tab will require sale of many, many autographs.
Big surprise that even a security company stated “He was never in danger”
Looks like more strikes against his NBC suit LOL
Had the New Black Panther Party been serious about anyone’s ability to capture GZ, they would have captured him themselves. Bounties like that are never for strangers to start a man hunt. Rather, they are to appeal to friends and relatives who know the person’s whereabouts. Maybe GZ left Osterman’s because he feared Mark would turn him in for $10,000. Hahaha.
I don’t believe that the $10,000 reward was anything more than a publicity stunt. It was a very stupid one as it was a solicitation to commit a felony (kidnapping).
Hahaha… His own security company would know, they deployed people every where GZ went and watched the crowds that happened to be there, to see if there was any special interest being paid to him. My guess is that the few people who recognized him, quietly pointed fingers and walked swiftly away. Otherwise he drew no attention at all. After that went on, day after day after day, they certainly would be able to say that there was never a threat. In fact there was no paparrazzi hanging around. No one even wanted his picture as no media outlet was willing to pay.
Seems that every “reality” GZ entertained, was entirely in his own mind. Worse, this is the clown MOM allowed to lead him around by the nose and totally destroy both MOM’s case and the entire fund raising effort as well. I doubt anyone would want to hire MOM to fight parking tickets after this.
I’m not familiar with Orlando so I looked up the 4-star Single Creek Resort. http://rosenshinglecreek-px.trvlclick.com/?utm_source=travelclick&utm_medium=cpc around $200 per night
Gee, and they had us thinking they were forced to stay at the “No Tell Motel” I clearly remember Pa Pa talking about that. I guess they lied.
Grahase, thanks for the link. I don’t think we’ll be well-informed about the claims until we can read the Complaint ourselves.
However, what jumped out at me from the “angle” this ClickOrlando article took is:
1. The mention, in two places, to ASI protecting the killer from “PAPARAZZI” !! Last I knew those are photographers, not assassins! And all this time O’Mara whines and cries and begs on the killer’s behalf that the killer’s LIFE is in danger – that he must run and hide for fear of his LIFE! I wonder if we might eventually learn that he’s been deathly afraid of his image, rather than (or at least more so) than his death.
2. The use of “COUNTER-INTELLIGENCE” – again, supposedly used to protect against “paparazzi” – is deeply concerning and of interest to me. I wonder what and how much “counter-intelligence” has been used, and against whom? This aspect is rather frightening, IMO.
This lawsuit may prove to be one of the most fascinating bizarre turns of all, in this sorry circus of a pursuit of justice.
Fogen used his bodyguards for “counter-intelligence”? The man is MAD! He is not a nation; he’s a chubby misfit whose only claim to fame is that he killed an innocent kid with a hollow-point bullet allegedly because he couldn’t hold up his end of a minor fisticuffs in a doggie-poo yard. “Counter-intelligence” on what? On who is trying to kill him? On who is saying bad things about him? On who wants to photograph him? [Hope they do a better job than Witness-Schmitness who got a shot of the back of his head while he chatted on his cell phone or Officer Gee-Wizz-I-forgot Wagner.] Or does he have his counter-intelligence working hard on trying to figure out if there are two DeeDees? Or if Benjamin Crump sits in the front row at Church? Or if Angela Corey has ever had an affair with Charlie Crist? All this is the fault of NBC for saying Fogen said, “And he’s a pbhllack male…”
Well, clearly he is afraid of himself, or rather, denies his dark side and projects that onto the world. “Those azzholes always get away . . .”
It seems to me that much of Z’s support has dried up. All that remains are a few remnant/errant posters sprouting easily dis-proven fare. I think GZ and MOM are finally realizing that their cause is repelling people, rather than gathering any steam.
The security outfit must be new to the business, they should never ever take on a client without a signed agreement of some sort. The court will probably give them something, but they will first have to prove that they have established rates. They will need sign in and sign out sheets, reports and other documentation to prove their hours/man hours. If they’re charging special rates, they’ll need to show how those rates are figured etc., Even then, without a signed agreement, they’ll probably not be fully compensated, as per the verbal agreement. But instead, I think they’ll get a little better than standard rates, especially if they can prove that their client demanded extra service.
Reputable companies have contracts ready to be signed, why? Because they don’t want non-professional interference with their mission, because that puts the client and their own reputation at risk. Only desperado’s and con men do business on a handshake! Unless the amount is too trivial to warrant a contract.
It’s hard to imagine why O’Mara, a lawyer, would enter into a contract for services without all the terms carefully spelled out on paper unless he was planning to pull a fast one on the other party.
It’s very difficult doing business with lawyers because they have easy access to the courts and can effectively represent themselves, while lay people, providing services, need to hire lawyers to sue, and that cost money. In these kinds of cases there are few, if any contingency lawyers. So, you have to pay the freight up front.
This is used as a very strong negotiating point, even if you do have a contract, you’re likely to settle rather than go to court, so your 800 dollar bill becomes a 4 or 5 hundred dollar settlement. Lawyers who do that kind of thing on a regular basis give the profession a bad name.
In this case they are owed a large enough amount to make it worth the cost and effort. Still, not having a contract, is going to make it very difficult for them to substantiate any fees, over and above their normal rates. It’s their word against MOM’s that any extra services were requested/ordered or necessary. He’s certainly not going to admit that he ever asked for anything extra etc.
Worse, without a means to prove that MOM violated a contract term, there’s no way that punitive damages can be assessed. So, the barrier against getting the shaft by shady attorneys (or anyone else) is down. I read somewhere that the Bar Association frowns on this type of activity, but I see no where that they track the frequency of these disputes by lawyers and their providers.
I can say from my experiences as an expert witness, as soon as AIS was paid one dime a contract is in effect. Since they were paid $40K, they cannot argue there was no contract. Oral contracts are recognized and there was an “Offer” “Consideration” and a “Payment”
Fogen can only try and minimize the amount but with a detailed 73 page complaint, I’d say he’s screwed.
contract acronym (from study for CPA exam) COALL
Consideration – payment
Offer – Mom/GZ asked
Acceptance – secuirty company accepted by doing
Legal subject matter – security services
Legal tender – US dollars
Straight time hours should be too hard to prove. Beyond that, I dunno.
“Straight time hours should be too hard to prove.”
Should that be “…shouldn’t be too hard to prove” These companies are bonded and they keep a log. My dad used to do PI work in addition to being a cop and their log was unquestioned at every level, even in court.
I believe he’ll owe the entire amount if he decides to go to trial and not settle in arbitration. Of course they’ll be in line behind the IRS for the $70 he owes them come 2013 !! Bwa hahahahahahahaha !
Yep, he’s so much smarter than everyone.
Yeah – shouldn’t be. I suck at multitasking. Proofing goes out the window.
That’s OK……I still love ya !! Yes siree. He’ll owe God knows how much to O’ Mara, $60 K to AIS, $70 K in taxes and when the wrongful death lawsuit is over and he owes millions to Trayvon’s family and he’s in prison for life, he’ll regret he ever heard Osterman say “……hey, you need a gun & a permit, it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy”
Maybe he’ll have nightmares where SheLie keeps saying “…..I told you we needed bread, milk, some chips, soda and Ziti for dinner tomorrow, but nooooooooooooo…….you couldn’t just drive to Target, you had to go Target somebody”
Then again, it’s Fogen who says he wouldn’t change a damn thing.
I don’t think he was going to Target. Possibly he/his crew had spotted TM over the past 7 days. I wonder why those needy Black kids that he mentors, or their parents, have not spoken up to tell what a wonderful guy he is. Did he mentor through some organization or was it something he did on his own? Had he mentored kids in his neighborhood he could have deterred some of those bad Black kids.
For the record, there is no record of any mentoring. This was a spur of the moment comment he made and has tossed out there to make him seem like the new MLK. Just like Osterman telling us he has so many black friends they could have a March of their own.
Even my LE connections have stated the mentoring is bull. In this day of mass communication, there is no way someone would not have come forward with names, e-mails, texts, a location or some information about it.
Fromm day 1 I have said he was on his way the Target (someone) and never believed he was on his way out for something as wholesome as milk, bread & eggs. Not a chance at all. He was on a mission.
I’d laugh if this were not a tragedy. He was on his way “to Target (TM)” How profound!
Truly this is a tragic event and justice needs to be dealt. However, you can laugh as we are not laughing at the event. We laugh at what Fogen and his posses say and do. We laugh at the fact that they lie so poorly in an effort to deny justice as the world knows it. We can laugh at the stupid names the Zidiots give themselves on all these sites and what the try to inflict.
Well their was a contract, but it was an unwritten one, so the finer points it may have contained are lost, unless they’re reflected in the paid portion of the bill.
If they are reflected in the paid portion of the bill, even if only in higher, but unenumerated costs, then MOM will have to make a showing that any changes were warranted by changes in circumstances etc., if not then such changes won’t be allowed and the paid bill will set the tone as to how the later charges will be settled.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t saying that they didn’t have a case, all I was saying was that a lack of a written agreement, makes it much easier to controvert matters, such that the recovery is likely to be less than what was agreed too.
With a 73 page complaint, I have to imagine that they’ve detailed the rates they were charging in the paid portion of their bill. If the same special services are included in both the paid and unpaid portions, then GZ loses a considerable amount of leverage. His only resort is to somehow claim that a reduction in services was ordered but not implemented. That, of course, would have to be supported by some claim and showing that the situation had materially changed from what it had been. Otherwise GZ and MOM will lose this one as well.
Let me say that I know from experience having been the plaintiff in a civil case where money was owed me for a loan and for some musical equipment, the judge stated that there may be no written contract but that did not matter in the least. The other party made 2 miniscule money order payments ($5.00 & $10.00) on the $10,000.00 + amount. As a comical note, this guy marked the $5.00 payment “Last Payment” trying to make it look like he had paid all of it off except the last few bucks. He was ordered to pay me as the MO’s were proof of the contract. He acknowledged the money and never denied the other items. To boot, he was ordered to pay 10% interest and costs which drove the amount to almost double.
Many years ago we hired a Private Investigator for something and they have an hourly log. Just like a lawyers time, that log will be used as will any expenses. So if they say this log shows 26 hours by Joe and 39 by Billy Bob, that’s what they will probably get. They are bonded also.
For sure they will have logs to cover their time, but, without an agreement, it will be difficult to establish that special services and special fees were either ordered or needed. My guess is they can prove basic services and fees, simply by showing their established rates already collected from other clients. The real trick will be to establish, by evidence, that higher costs were either necessary, ordered by the client or agreed to.
The stage for the battle is already set, by MOM saying they charged him too much, while they’re saying that too much security was ordered. A gambit that has them going in the same direction. They both claim that there were excesses, the Co wants to blame the client for this, the client wants to blame the Co for this.
MOM, being a lawyer, knew this was going to happen, long before it did. That’s why he didn’t want to sign any contract, since that puts him on the best foot to dispute the bill. The security company is about to learn an expensive lesson.
The client says “I want a man here and here and better put one here for good measure”. The Co’s reply is: “Okay, sign here, and here, and here, initial and date here!”
All a moot issue. Once they made a payment to AIS there is a contract in place. If they had not been paid anything O’ Mara could say, we had no contract for money and they provided security for my client just like Zimwits send him money….because the are gun nutzz, er, believe he’s innocent.
The law provides for oral contracts and once Offer, Acceptance & Consideration have happened……it’s a contract.
O’ Mara asked for security and AIS agreed to provide (Offer)
Terms and payment are agreed upon (Acceptance)
Payment of $40 K was already made (Consideration)
They have logs that keep the time of each employee and all expenses and this by law is a bonded company. He’s going to have to pay them. How many times did O’ Mara mention all the security that was needed.
Aside from Fogen, who else said that he carried all the time. I know his cop friend Osterman said so. Both have zero credibility. They need you to believe this to be true. This is why Fogen didn’t even remember he had it until Trayvon spied it. Come on. If he carried every day, all the time (except work), this statement is ridiculous and why even bring it up.
However, after spending time with Osterman, the story changes. Now, he always has his gun with him.
Two issues – 1) If he carries it all the time, so what, slap on the wrist.
– 2) If he doesn’t carry all the time, but did that night, it could be considered he was pre-meditating when he heard the Thug alert.
So, if I were a good friend, and if I were a cop, I think my best advice would be to say you always carried.
He’s crazy if he thinks anyone is going to believe his lie about forgetting he had a gun with him. He never forgets his gun. In fact, he even has Shelly’s gun with him that night. Whether he mistook her gun for his or not, he knew he had not misplaced his gun, he knew he was not without a gun. At some point in time he loaded his gun with especially deadly ammunition. So, that’s yet another reason he can’t forget about his gun.
Most people don’t even forget their house keys and they’re not as serious as a concealed carry weapon, loaded with special “sure kill” ammunition.
Why “sure kill” ammo if you’re only target is a dog? Loading it to “plus one” condition, because the dog won’t give you time? When or who did the dog ever attack? He’s so afraid of a barking domestic animal that he suddenly needs a sure kill firearm? He’s beyond ridiculous. His ammunition and his practice sessions are aimed at killing people, not dogs.
He took Shellie’s gun. That is proof, he specifically went out with that gun, since it is not his gun.
IMO, George didn’t own a gun. That story about him buying 2 guns is just that — a story. ShelLIE bought the gun and GZ carried it. There is a question as to whether GZ’s CCL license was valid. Racer has introduced that question because of a returned fee for the license. I also question the validity because there was no notice to revoke his license after his arrest, but ShelLIE did get such notice.
Right on, with GZ’s cash flow problems, it’s hard to imagine him buying two guns, without MO lending him the money. The lack of cancel notice does point to him not having a cc, because he too should have received notice as well. What then is to be made of that cc card he carried?
It’s like in NY, you have to keep your car insurance current. If you don’t, your insurer notifies DMV and they revoke your registration and demand you send in your plates. No demands to return your plates means you have no car. If you’re driving a car, then that car must belong to someone else. No way around it. If you don’t return your plates your drivers license will be suspended.
But my question is, does one have to own a weapon to obtain a ccp?
Or can you obtain a ccp using someone else’s weapon?
“But my question is, does one have to own a weapon to obtain a ccp?”
No, just like having a DL and not owning a car.
Yes, of course, and he also had to check it, to make doubly sure that it was loaded with hollow points and also loaded to plus 1 status.
So, that’s two things he had to check before he holstered the weapon and left home with it. I can’t imagine Shelly being much of a gun nut. So, I don’t think she’d have kept the gun in plus one load condition. Obviously she didn’t go out to the shooting range with him or accompany him to Osterman’s for shooting sessions.
Everything with him is “overkill,” be it dogs, security or teens walking leisurely in the rain, looking about.
I note that in other NeN and 911 calls, GZ doesn’t push the narrative of criminal thug quite so hard. In fact, as NW, he knows that this overkill narrative isn’t necessary, since the police will respond without it. Thus, it’s real purpose has to be something else. Could that “something else” be that he had a result on his mind, that would be so dramatic, that it would require all this?
Could he, actually, have been pushing himself forward with this narrative pushing? Why is he out there in his impaired state?
Is that preparation for him to do something so dramatically different than he has ever done before, that it requires him to be both impaired and working himself into a lather?
That’s exactly what it seems to me. It seems that his plan includes something more than just grabbing and detaining, but actually killing someone. As that explains why he’s trying so hard to demonize his target and why he’s also impaired himself. Two features we don’t see in previous police contacts.
Fogen, the red-nosed wannabe,
had a very bloody nose,
and if you photographed him,
you would see his boo boo shows.
All of the cops who knew him
told him they would let him flee.
That’s why their buddy, Fogen,
spoke with such alacrity.
Then one shiny April day,
All the tables turned.
Fogen learned that all his words
had been disbelieved and spurned.
Then there was court and judges,
lots of fighting to and fro,
I’m guessing that this Christmas,
Fogen won’t say “ho ho ho”!
AWESOME! LOVE IT! I envy clever people like you! 🙂
Sent from my iPod
Thank you kindly and Merry Christmas!
LOL@Malisha.
Speaking of April, his cell phone contract is due to expire. I wonder if he’ll have enough money to pay it monthly for him and ShelLIE.
Only if its Cricket!
Sent from my iPod
LOL@cielo62. Yeah, but what then will he do with those $300 cell phones? He had a land line installed too, paid by donations. I wonder where and what purpose it serves now?
Dial up computer service?
Sent from my iPod
But he bought a 2 yr contract for WiFi. Maybe for a home security system for the Ostermans? IIRC, installing the land line was more than a thousand dollars, so it sounds much more elaborate than a simple phone line.
True. A plug in land line is only $20.
Sent from my iPod
My house came with a security system. When I called to have a tech come out to activate it, he said that experience thieves know how to cut phone lines, so he put it on a satellite system. Oh — and he had to change a room sensor because I have a big dog that would set it off. 🙂
He’d better get DSL, dial up met it’s end back about 5 years ago, when websites grew over the 3 – 4 megabyte size. I still keep my dial up company because I use it to keep my mail and subscriptions etc. that means I don’t have to re-do my e-mail/subscriptions, every time I change providers.
@ Malisha: Funny! :_D
Fogenhats stalked and terrorized an unarmed kid
The kid did not recognize the Fogen was a wanna be authority so Fogen killed the kid is what he did
Fogenhats did not want to go to prison
so he staged some injuries
Fogen photoshopped a bloody nose
and now being sued by his security
Then in April, he tried lying to the court too
He hid passport and money in a safe deposit box
& his supporters think he’s a Jew
But Fogen’s not a Jew,
He’s German & Peruvian
Then Osterman went on TV
and said they had 324 friends that are Nubian
Judge Lester called him potted palm
trying to lead them down the primrose path
Fogen got a new judge
named Nelson, and she kept the ankle bracelet on his a$$
That means Fogenhats
cant go out between 6pm to 6am
Fogenhats cant leave Seminole County
So He had Junior be the family spokesperson gay friend
Rap – I am hearing it as I read it! Good show, man.
Oh $hit, this is to damn funny and, I LOVE IT! you are one in a million. it’s good to know that FAT BOY is the @ss of all jokes.
Here we are respectfully (entre nous) speaking about how we address and refer to George Zimmerman. And that’s good, and that’s to our credit. But I’d also like to look at a certain phenomenon that, although I have not analyzed it mathematically, I sense may be at work. See what you think about this:
Before Fogen was arrested there was a massive, extremely loud, horrified and at times horrifying call for him to be arrested.
Then he was arrested.
90% of the rage and outrage died down.
Then he and O’Mara put on suits and did the Hannity Interview.
Big outpouring of rage and outrage was reinvigorated and in some instances became worse.
Started to die down again.
Then his lawyer went “apepoo” in court about Trayvon being an MMA enthusiast and DeeDee not being genuine about being sad that Trayvon “passed.” They wanted everybody’s twitters and school records but still wanted to protect Fogen’s nose.
Rage and outrage reinvigorated.
Began to die down again.
Then they began to show their “jingle-bells-red blood on Fogennose” pictures all over the place and it got reheated.
What I see is this: Fogen killed Trayvon Martin. Premeditated or not premeditated, he killed Trayvon Martin and announced that he did not regret it. So every time he tries to re-kill Trayvon Martin, those of us who have survived his killing of Trayvon Martin become very angry all over again and we respond with renewed condemnation. HE said he did it and HE said he didn’t regret it and HE is still cocking around spouting off about his poor nose, his poor head, poor him being talked about nasty, him him him him, and the kid is still dead. Just don’t strain my psyche with worry about whether I have shown him enough respect. If he would stop whining in public about all the wrong done to him I might feel differently. But as it is? I wouldn’t spit on the best part of him if he were on fire. If in the future he is imprisoned I will probably allow my indignation to die down, or encourage it to die down, or something, but right now, I’m not worrying about saying something demeaning towards him. Let him deal with that with his therapist.
Oh, BTW. If he doesn’t want to apologize for killing Trayvon Martin, OK. He should still apologize for having called him an “asshole,” a “fucking punk,” and “up to no good,” because even Fogen never alleged that there was evidence Trayvon Martin had ever broken into or burglarized any residence at RTL. So good shoot or bad shoot, his original “probable cause” was non-existent and he should apologize. Not even a cop would have been allowed to get away with rousting someone without probable cause, once the press got ahold of the story.
So until I hear a credible, heartfelt, public apology from George Zimmerman for having badmouthed Trayvon Martin before any kind of attack by either of them upon either of the other of them had occurred, I’m holding myself exempt from any criticism for referring to said George Zimmerman in a demeaning, disrespectful, or inappropriate manner.
Hey Fogen, got that? Understood it? Say “yes ma’am” real pretty now, defendant.
Very well stated and, I posted a reply to your jingle but, somehow it posted where it shouldn’t have. my first post on here this AM was meant for you.
In this day of high tech face to face real time comunications ..There has to be a change in the way jurours are treated..You can give a seqestered jury all the treats an cakes..They are still being coralled by the goverment forced to sit in judgement over a stranger or strangers.Confinement even in luxury is still confinement.Seperation from your loved ones besides on the phone same as prisoners.What realy disturbs me with a seqestered jury though is human nature.If you are one of the jurours with an agenda perhaps.An forced to live cheek by jowl allowed only to socalise with your fellow jury members for weeks mnths?It gives you a chance to suss people out find there likes disslikes .Political leanings family background moral fibre .Lets face it an above avarge intellegence person or persons could as Xena once stated have a lower calibre intellect..Humming God Save America with there thumb stuck up there butt. if they wished to do so…………………………………………………………………………………….And the chances of an above average intellege.type with an agenda getting on a high profile jury are very high i m o.They say that the people that end up as jurours are the ones dumb enough not to be able to figure a way out of serveing..On the other scale great care is taken dureing voi dire to weed out those that seem over eager to serve ,,Stands to reason that anyone with an agenda whom manages to get onto the jury panel .Must have walked the tight wire just right to get aproved.Probably end up as foreman or woman as well when the jury retires to deside there verdict……………………..Reading some of the comments over at the Orlando sentinel sitr they are beyond vile..I dread to think of one of those ending up on the jury..Wich is why I feel the State will request a change of venue.An the Defence will want to remain put..Ultimitly they will go the bus in a out of state jury an seqester them…Wich i dread,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,So as I said at the start of my post why not start trials maybe with small civil cases at first .Where jurours agree to some limitations .As they do in normal cases not to discuss ect.But the jurours are online .They reveiw proceedings either from home or some other location.This ensures that they have no interaction /conversation with fellow jurours untill deliberations start.They ouldnt even know what there fellow jurours look like…Some wotnessses have already given evidence over video.Already in hearings the phone is utilised to talk to experts or witnesses.If electronic jurours work in smaller coursts .Eventually scale it up .An the tech is improveing all the time.So it can be used in all trials Jurors could do there sevice from the comfort of there own homes an stay with there family an pets…All the jurours annonimity would be doubly assured not only from the media an public .But from there fellow jurours…Intimidation /peer pressure/would also be eliminated from the process.
Colin, what you are suggesting actually increases existing issues with juries.
The intent of a trial is to have jurors evaluate the evidence presented to them, and not any other evidence. Most jurors are not sequestered, even for fairly major cases. When sequestration happens, it’s because of a judgment that the jurors could otherwise not be shielded from being “contaminated” by exposure to outsider evidence. In many cases, it is considered enough that jurors be warned to avoid such contamination. But in some high profile cases, it may seem to be unavoidable.
There is an potential issue with jurors discussing a case while it is still being presented. But a greater potential problem is that jurors will hear or read things about a case from other sources. In addition, if jurors are following the case remotely, how do the judge and everyone else know that the jurors are actually listening to everything?
In addition, group discussion and consensus it the purpose of deliberations. They are supposed to discuss the evidence together, and try to figure out what is important and how it fits into the big picture. Someone who is in the minority originally may have important things to say that may persuade others to look at things from a different point of view. Yes, there is a chance of intimidation, but having the jurors discuss issues as a group is central to the deliberation process.
Jurors being all in the same room together with the judge, lawyers and witnesses is also important. This is a very organic thing, a trial. Not only does each juror have a responsibility to other jurors, he or she has a responsibility to the whole society. They are on trial right along with the defendants.
Im not a tech wiz but as I said Tech is improveing an you ask how would the judge ect know remote jurours are paying attention..Well with skype an face time over various systems laptops an ipods tablets ect…Its a two way process the people interacting see each other in reall time..Id suggest each jurour is issued with a hand held tablet as well as a fixed large screen showing them an image of court.Not whats being broadcast on the media ,But special jurour tv,,,YOU could have i2 16 or 8 moniters in the jury box showing there faces an faceial expressions so the meddia could observe as if they were phycically present.You would certainly know they were present an paying attention..They wouldnt be able to wander of an play tablle tennis with there kids,,Im also of the opinion that randomly picking members of the public to sit an judge someones guilt or innocence is a gamble .An one shouldnt gamble with a persons right to freedom or punishment avoided for a crime they have comitted onrandom members of society.For what ever reason it be proven that jurys will set guilty people free.And send innocent people to jail.Thats the result of random members of the population being tasked with serveing on jurys….i m o we have to develop a system were jurours serve for a period of time years 5?Its debateable ……………………………………………………………….An thease pro jourors must be beyond reproach an such people do exsist…Educated an knowlageable an not even about the law but life………………..Merry Christmas Fred Crane ..Dexter.Cherokee Native Malisha Xena gblock.Jun.ceilo62.gbrbsb.Unitron.DaveLonniestarShannoninMiami.Ladysaintcaire..sdun.nemeriy..Searchingminds..Cercando luce .Rachel ..I Could fill a page with names an it would be the longest post Id ever wrote so I will end with all the best in the comeing year God Bless Trayvon …To his Family an loved ones Theres no reason to feel festive .Justice is comeing in 2013…………
A few years ago, I was called in to jury duty for a major gang trial. Because they expected to find it difficult to assemble a suitable jury, they called in a lot of people, and about 120 people showed up on the first day. That was too many people to fit into the courtroom, so they put the overflow in a separate room, where we sat on straight chairs and watched the proceedings on piped-in TVs. The first day, they did some preliminary stuff, read the indictment (which took over 2 hours), and had us fill out multi-page questionaires.
About 80 of us returned a few days later. (The rest were apparently excluded on basis of their responses – maybe they had already heard too much about the case.) They then began the questioning of each individual potential juror.
I was in the overflow room the first day, but I made it into the actual courtroom the second day. There really is a much stronger sense of immediacy in being in the actual courtroom. I admit, it wasn’t a 2-way TV, and the people in the courtroom couldn’t see the people in the overflow room. But I doubt that jurors would get a greater sense of immediacy watching remotely over Skype. (No, I didn’t make it onto the actual jury.)
As for the “professional jury” issue, in the USA our founding fathers put a great stock in the concept of a criminal trial involving a jury of one’s peers. We could question exactly what that means, but that would probably rule out having a professional jury. I can see arguments on both sides, but I think permitting it might require a constitutional amendment.
Speaking of slurs, the defendant’s name isn’t “fogen” or “Cheorge” or anything else it isn’t.
I’m not sure what “fogen” is about, but it’s clearly meant to demean.
“Chorge,” “Cheorge” are obviously racist. And unless you’re speaking Spanish, “Jorge” is just as bad.
BDL
I’m not sure what “fogen” is about, but it’s clearly meant to demean.
“Chorge,” “Cheorge” are obviously racist. And unless you’re speaking Spanish, “Jorge” is just as bad.
I have used Chorge to mimic the way the GZ pronounced his name on the NEN call, where it appeared he was under the influence of something. I don’t associate Chorge or Cheorge as racist. My Spanish speaking friends do not mispronounce George as Chorge or Cheorge but rather Yorge as they replace soft G with a Y just as they replace J with Y.
From now on I will just call GZ the lying killer. I would think he would prefer Chorge or Cheorge or even Fogen. This was all started to avoid using his given name, just as many commentators have avoided using the Connecticut killer’s given name and refer to him as the shooter/killer.
If you want to sound like the commentators, call Mr. Zimmerman “the defendant.”
With the exception of a few dipthongs and double letters, Spanish pronunciation tends to be very consistent. In Spanish, a “J” is pronounced the same way an “H” is in English, and not at all like a “Y.”
BDL
Wrong BDL. In Latin American Spanish, the soft G is pronounced like an American Zh sound. Girafa is pronounce zhirafah. Ask anybody from Colombia on down. Spanish is not homogenous. It has many regional variations.
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A majority of the commentators on the Connecticut shootings are referring to the shooter as “the killer” and I will do the same, referring to GZ as The Killer (of Trayvon Martin). He may be the defendant in the 2nd degree murder case but there is no question or doubt he is The Killer.
I can only go on my personal experience with my friends who speak primarily Spanish and English with a dialect. They substitute my name which begins with a J with a Y.
You know with all the things wrong in this world, the horrific murders of innocent kids, it seems your focus would not be nit-picking how The Killer’s name should be pronounced.
Oh well…….
I
Jm- the truly saddest thing is that 100 more people have been killed by gun violence in the week since CT. Killers over shoes, over road rage, over absolutely stupid things. We can’t refer to each if them as “the killer”. GZ is what I use, but honestly, what he is called means nothing as long as we see that he is put away for 20+years.
Lets agree to all work for Justice for Trayvon. HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL!
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Cielo,
My “lesson” on Spanish pronunciation concerned “J” (pronounced “hota”) and not “G.” While I appreciate your instruction on pronunciation of the letter G (is this Plaza Sesamo?) it wasn’t relevant.
FWIW, the letter “LL” also gets some regional variance (from “ellyay,” through “ellzhay” to “elljay” but that’s not relevant either.
BDL
So your point is…? The point is that the names used here are not racist nor demeaning, although certainly not meant to show any respect. I don’t find anything written here re: GZ to be racist towards Hispanics.
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@ jm
“They substitute my name which begins with a J with a Y. ”
I’ve never heard of that – for example, James in Spanish would be Jaime (pronounced Himay) – although Diego is also the Spanish equivalent of James.
I have never heard of a y sound of a j.
To L’s is a y sound though like cholla (pronounced choya) or me llamo (may yah mo).
Anyway, thanks – I’ve never heard of that.
Another example of talking past each other. Most of the differences here are whether the person is speaking Spanish or the person is native Spanish speaker speaking English. In Spanish the J is pronounced as the English H. In English, the Spanish speaker pronounces the J as the English Y.
BDL, the term “Fogen” is not meant to demean George Zimmerman. It is meant to improve the quality of the world, and move us as humans closer to the possibility of peace with each other in perpetuity, by canceling out the memory of, and certainly the power in, the name given to that individual, which name would be unknown to us had he not purchased hollow-point bullets and loaded them into a gun, thereafter propelling one of those bullets into the heart and lungs of Trayvon Martin.
In an earlier thread, a commenter pointed out that constant references to George Zimmerman by name were making him more and more significant in our consciousness and were actually adding to the already bad karma associated with him. At that point Professor posted an article dealing with this issue and gave a historical perspective. I chimed into that thread with the observation that in Hebrew/Jewish culture, when a person is considered negative, evil, etc., one follows any mention of his name with the sentence: “May his name be forgotten.” I shortened that to “Forget His Name” and shortened that further to “Fogen.” It is a way to refer to George Zimmerman while not using his name, not using a curse word (which also, unfortunately, bestows power) and saying, exactly: “We are talking about him but we do not want to preserve his influence upon our consciousness because of his evil deed.”
It is a simultaneous self-cleansing we are performing when we call that person “Fogen.” What does it do to him? I don’t know. Frankly, I don’t give a damn. Had he killed Trayvon Martin and then felt bad about it, perhaps I would feel differently now. But for me to suffer more for the death of this unknown person (Trayvon Martin) than Fogen suffers for it, when he DID IT, is so unacceptable to me that I want the memory of Fogen erased, at some point in time, from my soul.
I defend the name Fogen, as used to denote George Michael Zimmerman of Sanford, Florida and/or Manassas, Virginia.
What Malisha said!! Love your posts!!!
How beautiful Malisha! I was pretty sure “Fogen” wasn´t meant to demean or as a slur but I hadn´t quite realized it went as profound as that.
The thing is, I want Zimmerman’s name to be remembered. I want it to be forever linked to problems with those whose concealed-carry gun gives them a feeling of power, the fraudulent use of self-defense claims, the concerns and mischief of SYG laws, and, most importantly, as the murderer of Trayvon Benjamin Martin.
I use just that last name – Zimmerman – and, whenever I type it or see it in headlines, I do feel the anger, but I also feel tremendous contempt. No, I don’t want this swaggering poltroon to be forgotten.
Well, from the crimes we are reading about, it doesn’t matter what kind of language is actually in the SYG law. It is clear that the public does not understand it and are taking it the wrong way, which is why the increasing number of shooters are trying to take cover under it. Because they no longer understand their own responsibilities. The fact is, they feel that SYG gives them new and unbridled powers to shoot first and claim later, and go free on account of this law.
So, it doesn’t matter much at all, whether the law actually allows it, because people will die because this law is misunderstood. Can’t expect these “gun toting geniuses” to read or understand the law. They are going to continue to be driven by rumors and anecdotes about the law. Only after someone is killed will their education begin.
I too support the use of Fogen, since it can be applied to any mass murderer or other killer, to deny them the fame they might gain by having their name used all over the internet.
Where, they can say to someone: “Google George Zimmerman” and see… But “Fogen” commentary won’t show up cutting down their notoriety.
“Only after somebody is killed will their education begin.”
Their education only begins when somebody is arrested for murder. Then it progresses through the period when “somebody is tried for murder” and they graduate when “somebody is sentenced and serves time for murder.”
Education. Never easy.
Not sure if “fogen” is “meant to demean”, at least not in a nasty or racial way. I missed its making but it started with comments on how merely saying GZ´s name gave him too much to much importance so, plays with “hewhosenameshallnotbespoken”, and “hewhosenameshallforeverbeforgot” started and “fogen” came about but I don´t know exactly what letters stand for.
Agreed in respect of the “Ch” variations, but I can´t agree with “Jorge” because even if speaking Spanish if the person´s name is George then Jorge is wrong and unless among friends for a joke could be demeaning. IMO names should not be translated unless the subject agrees and as a Brit living in Spain most of my life I’ve had an earful of my name being translated even though it does’t have a direct translation! It should be banned, no angloparlante should refer to “King John Charles” and no hispanoparlante should refer to “Reina Isabel”, a really perfect example of why it is wrong because in English both Isabel and Elizabeth exist, even in French, but not in Spanish so Elizabeth and Isabel are translated the same, i.e. “Isabel” when they are not the same name at all.
BDL I forgot to note in my comment that I refer to him as GZ which is fairly traditional here in informal notes, comments etc. within companies, organizations, lawyers, etc.
Fogen= FOrGet his Name, so as not to immortalize defendant for committing what he did.
Cheorge= his slurred pronunciation of his own name on NEN call
Chorge= same as above
Goal as set forth in prior posts is explicitly NOT to demean but to minimize repetition of defendant’s actual name so as to deny him immortality.
“so as to deny him immortality”
Again, as with Malisha´s explanation… beautiful!
Within the context of their use in our discussions here I do not think the names “Cheorge” and “Chorge” are racist. As such, I disagree with you, Boar_d_laze. Having said that, I definitely respect the fact that the use of those names makes some of us here uncomfortable and would therefore urge others to desist from using them.
HOWEVER, boar_d_laze, when Zimmerman stalked (first in his car and the on foot), “demeaned” and pursued (in Zimmerman’s own word) a “kid” who was running away from him (out of fear), confronted “this kid” and killed him by firing a ‘dumb-dumb-bullet’ straight into his heart while the kid begged him for his life, Zimmerman manifested the evil that is intrinsic in his (Zimmerman) nature. Some of us here still cannot understand that some humans are capable of what Zimmerman did. Personally, I do not see any difference between George Michael Zimmerman and the terrorist who captured Daniel Pearle (a NYT journalist) , bound his hands and feet and beheaded him while he begged for his life (!). Surely, you do understand the horror and disgust some of us feel. Surely, you can understand why some of us here feel uncomfortable/literarily sick writing/saying the name: “George Zimmerman” or “George” or “Zimmerman” and use ‘Fogen’ instead (and I believe Malisha has many days ago explained to you what is meant by that). There is nothing, IMO, “demeaning” about it (as you suggest). BUT, even if “Fogen” were to be demeaning in nature, you do agree with me that the use thereof is definitely covered by the First Amendment (which inter alia encompasses the right to criticize, offend, demean, etc.). Zimmerman is the sole defendant in a brutal murder case that has generated enormous public discourse on issues such as crime, law enforcement and equality under the law, race and race relations, gun control, etc. and divided the nation immensely. Within this context the full force of the First Amendment comes to bear. He (Zimmerman) has a right to fair trial BUT not to respect. Maybe you respect him. But I don’t. And I won’t.
Typo: “(first in his car and the on foot)”, should read : “(first in his car and then on foot)”.
I agree. I feel that the defendant terrorized the kid. He was acting like he was Hitler, in the way he spoke to the kid, as if he had no rights whatsoever, and ran it like Hitler as a NW.
As far as I’m concerned, he doesn’t deserve any respect and, he will definitely not be getting any from me. I hate the looks of him as well as hearing and seeing his name. this thing is deserving of all of the disrespect coming his way now and in the future. he has earned all of the bad coming his way. when he leaves his prison cell, I hope he leaves feet first!
I have absolutely no respect for the killer either but I think that all of this namecalling looks childish and seriously lowers the tone of the discussion. This started out as a serious examination of the facts and legal aspects of a murder case and has degenerated into a discussion of what silly nickname to apply to the defendant. I suggest that we either focus on the actual case or give our keyboards a rest.
Respectfully, you should read the history of those names. FOGEN has to do with GZs name being forgotten. “Cheorge” is the way GZ says his own name. Honestly, GZ deserves the worst words in our lexicon. But Forgetting GZs name is an ancient curse, to remove the power of mentioning his name. The only racial slur would “whore-hay” which no one here uses. Catch up!
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Groans I got that info re Lance Hudson ect via an article written in Orlando Sentinel by Rene Stutzman?Is that correct spelling of her name,,Yea she is back ..So in the comments section about tenth down is where I read the above comment from L Hudson..Like I said I have know idea whom he is or where his info came from.Sounds about par for the course to me given the grandiose delussion affecting anyone in zidiot camp…You asked for a link so I will try an oblige .Tenth comment down… http://discussions.orlandosentinel.com/20/orlnews/os-george-zimmerman-bodyguard-suit-20121221/10
Thank you again, Colin.
My point is if he said punks or goons why eddit it out of his law suite…Whilst not nice descriptors of anyone let alone someone you have never met so it his opinion…He is allegeing his state off hyper vigalence because of the crime wave hitting his wee gated retreat like a tsunammi..So whilst not nice uttering or more apt muttering either of those insults is hardly going to affect his law suit ie media company made me out as a raceist an Im so not…Didnt eddit out shit ..From the shit he s running Didnt editt out assholes from thease asshole always get away…No they only choose to edit out the raceial insult directed not only at Trayvon .But against an entire ethnic group the accused in his deluded phycie.Beleives are inferior or whith this whakjob who knows his reasoning.. Maybe he hates black youths because he is attracted to them an Its there fault I also heard an read the rumours that there were nubian porn sites allegedlly visited by the defendant .So by removeing this one portion from the text submitted in his law suite i m o its because it is a raceist statement….And would damage his chance of winning ..Or receiveing a ;large out of court settlement to drop the case is.In his deluded mind he envisiged happening..Why not he murdered an inocccent youth on his way home in a safe gated community.Murdered by a nw volanteer supposed to help protect residents by being eyes on not hands or guns drawn..After his kill strangers awarded him by posting hundreds of thousabds of dollars an he was famous.Why shouldnt some tv company also line my pockets..
Right. The strangest part of the interview (in my opinion) with Serino where “fucking punks” is mentioned is the part where Serino suddenly asks, in a parenthetical voice, “What was that you said?” and Fogen says, “Fucking punks,” and then Serino says, “That was not a punk.”
Not Singleton, not Serino, not Hannity, not O’Mara, not a single person has ever (as far as I know having listened to the evidence dumps) has asked Fogen, “Now why would you call him a fucking punk long before he decked you?”
And this: If you thought he was a fucking punk, you had every reason to suspect he might do bad things. You had every reason to suspect that one of those bad things might be dangerous or criminal — after all, you never can tell with fucking punks. But you chose to get out of your car and go running around where the fucking punk was on the loose. Go figure.
Coons = racial slur
Punks = what people call rape victims in prison
either is not a nice thing to say
and this was after him saying
“a real suspicious guy, because he is walking around looking about, and when asked of the race, he looks black, and then he says he is suspicious because he is a black male walking around with his hands in his waist band?”
Malisha: “Not Singleton, not Serino, not Hannity, not O’Mara, not a single person has ever (as far as I know having listened to the evidence dumps) has asked Fogen, “Now why would you call him a fucking punk long before he decked you?”
Good question and I hope the prosecution has the opportunity to ask it even if no one else did. I really want to know the answer as to why GZ categorized/profiled Trayvon as an effing punk and I really want to know why Singleton, Serino and Hannity didn’t follow up on GZ’s effing punk statement. I suspect O’Mara knows and he’s not talking on the grounds it will incriminate his client.
Thank you Malisha after listening to Serino/Singleton’s audio interview of fogen on 2-29 It warmed my heart to hear Serino say almost under his breath “That was not a f__king punk!!!
I think the prosecutor put “fucking punks” into the affidavit of probable cause for the specific purpose of avoiding this whole controversy, so that in case five out of six people on a jury believed the word was “punks” instead of “coons” that wouldn’t make them think they had to acquit. Remember “If the glove doesn’t fit, you MUST ACQUIT”? It was false, of course. You could consider and actually are required to consider ALL the evidence but in high-profile trials, some people act like turkeys and all they can focus on is the shining, bright objects in their field of vision, so if it were alleged that he said “coons” but he said “punks,” some perhaps “mentally challenged Floridians” might think him innocent of all wrongdoing. Anyway, I don’t think it is measurably better to pick out a kid, call him a punk, and kill him than it is to pick out a kid, call him a coon and kill him.
Imagine that this took place in Detroit. Imagine that a guy sets up a neighborhood watch and one night he sets out, allegedly to go buy food for his family, and instead, he kills an unarmed kid. Imagine that the armed guy who shot the unarmed kid was Black, as was his victim, as were all witnesses. Imagine the police interview the shooter at the station house that night and imagine he says that the kid jumped him right after he got off the phone with NEN, and was beating him so severely that he had to shoot. Imagine him going home that night without any charges being leveled at him; THAT is what we have to contend with. I’m willing to accept the idea that Fogen said, “Fucking punks” so we can concentrate on the part where he killed Trayvon Martin without justification. Killing someone because you think they’re a punk is just as bad, in my opinion, as killing them because you think they’re a “coon.”
If you’re “sugar-coating” coons to arrive at punks, you’re not using Organic sugar. You might be using artificial sweetener. It’s not going to come out right.
RECIPE: How to properly sugar-coat “fucking coons”
Ingredients:
1 good story or 17 alternating non-credible stories
1 ton ignorance
4 cubic acres propaganda juice
1,160 gullible fools or 110 gullible fools, each with lots of different sock puppet internet handles
Instructions:
Each time something comes up, say something
Do that for several months
Get a family member to say and repeat something
Do that over and over
Have a bunch of Neanderthals set up a webpage and have the comments repeat and reemphasize any or all of the ridiculous stories over and over like a drumbeat at a parade of stupidity
If you isolate the phrase used in that section only, it sounds like “Coons”
The jury doesn’t see the “affidavit of probable cause.” That’s only for the judge at the Arthur (charging, bail, etc.) hearing.
The jury does not see it, but considering O’Mara insists on trying this case on the internet, potential jurors might see it – which is, why I believe he is doing this.
Malisha, I think you’re right about why the prosecution went with “punks” instead of “coons”, though, in addition to the trial issues, they may also be making a political calculation that the assertion of “punks” will quell potential unrest.
Nevertheless, he did say “coons.” I spent hours breaking down the phrase from the NEN call into its phonetic compenents, and comparing each one to other exemplars from the call. First of all, the vowel is unquestionably an “oo” not an “uh”. Second, the first consonant is definitely a “K,” as it displays the trailing ‘H’ GZ uses when saying his own name. Finally, there is definitely not a “K” audible at the end of the word. At full speed in context, the gestalt effect of how we hear can make it appear to be punks by the way the sounds interact with what comes before and after. But pulled out of that context, isolated and examined, its “k” “oo” “ns”.
I think any competent dialogue editor from Hollywood could follow the same process i did, and testify definitive to what word was actually spoken, and how that can be demonstrated through the isolating and reassembling of phonemes.
I should have added that by claiming GZ said “punks,” the prosecution helps ensure that they will maintain control of the case, and deflects the potential of the Feds becoming involved in a hate crimes investigation.
Thanks. I didn’t do all that work but I had a weird experience with the tape. I’m not good at seeing but very good at hearing so I just listened to the tape over and over (probably 20 times). I heard “khoons.” Then somebody put up some kind of web-page that explained how it was “punks.” I listened to what they had put up and I heard “punks”! That may show more about how people respond to well designed arguments than about the actual sounds on the actual tape, and I have no evidence that person USED the actual tape — they could have created a new one just to put that web-page up, it’s not impossible.
Right now, for purposes of understanding the tape, I have listened again and again and again, heard “khoons.” For purposes of analyzing how the case can go in court, I am agreeable to settling on “punks” because (a) once I thought I heard that, giving me “reasonable doubt”; and (b) it doesn’t matter; it displays animus and depraved mind. And Fogen has ADMITTED (to Serino) saying, “fucking punks.” Can’t back out of that one. (Frankly, I think he said “coons” and the reason I think so, independent of sound analysis, is that he admitted to saying “punks.” Had he said “punks,” I don’t think he would have admitted it; I think he would have said, “no, I said fucking shoes, my feet were hurting because those shoes aren’t good.”
Whenever I realize that Fogen’s defense against having said “Fucking Coons” is that he said “Fucking Punks” I have another little laughing fit. Who ARE the “fucking punks”? People walking in the rain who don’t look like athletes? Is it a term of endearment because Fogen enjoys sex with punks and thus, dear people who like to have sex and are punks make him exclaim with endearment when he sees them? Fitting into a group Fogen describes as “fucking punks” is just as profiling as fitting into a group Fogen describes as “fucking coons” so who in the world cares which actual insult he enunciated in his exasperated whispered exclamation. He was angry that “those fucking whoevers” were not under his total control; he was angry that particular member of the class of “fucking whoevers” was “running.” He was gonna make sure the asshole didn’t get away.
And I pray everyday, that a jury of his peers don’t let his FAT funky ass get away! I hate the sight of this subhuman, who set out to kill this kid from the moment he laid eyes on him. reading your above comment, is it true that the FBI found evidence from his lap top of him visiting black male porn sites? IMO, joonyah might not be the only homosexual in that family. his little brother may just be a switch hitter.
Ladystclaire, if true why would GZ be ashamed of that unless Junior was made to feel ashamed for being gay, and maybe that’s the reason for the early sexual molestation of the cousin — trying to prove to himself at the age of 8 that he’s not a sissy. GZ knows his family secrets in the closet, because Osterman said they had been estranged, and it was only after GZ killed Trayvon did he and Junior start talking again.
@Xena, I think I was just asking a question concerning the talk that was going around a couple of months ago. some men can be bisexual and, I believe this thing is one of them. I also know all about his brother and he not having a speaking relationship for years and, they just started speaking again, when he was arrested for murdering Trayvon. there is a lot about this family that we don’t know and, we may never know. but, we all know he killed a child for no reason what so ever and, he is going to suffer for what he has done. btw, something still tells me that there is something about him, that says he is like his older brother.
That report of the FBI finding homosexual porn sites on Fogen’s computer was a hoax. It lasted about three days or something. Once you’re known that well, of course, there will be those hoaxes and speculations all around. Hmmmm, wonder why Fogen doesn’t sue whoever first printed THAT?
He said it after calling Trayvon an asshole who always gets away, a black male with his hands in his waistband so he is suspicious because of that, he is suspicious because he is walking in the rain, he looks black, he’s check him out, shit he’s running, he always gets away
so even if he did say punks, which I cant honestly tell if its coons or punks, but it sounds like it could be coons
he’s suspicious for being a black teenager walking in the rain, he’s looking at the houses, he’s got his hand in his waist band…. not my words, Fogenhats words
@Jun, he said F’ing “COONS” plain as night and day. I don’t know why these people would try to sugar coat what he said. they all know he never said F’ing punks.
Reminder: If you have not yet signed the Christmas card to Trayvon’s family, please do so. It will be “sent” to them on Monday.
N B C Cannot edit transcript or audio to allegedly make gz raceist.However its not double standards or hypcopricy for gz al his legal team to alter the transcript an edit out the frakkin khoons whisper to make it apear he is not raceist..They must realise that through this course of action ..In editting out that phrase.Its an admission of guilt that he did utter Fn khoons.As he lied to Serrino an whispered Fn Punks .Why eddit it out ?FN pUNKS IS IN NO WAY NO SHAPE GOING TO BE CONSTRUED AS A RACEIST REMARK….Ooops sorry bout the caps .In summation i m o Editing out his whispered comment is admitting he made a racial slur against Trayvon.Even more evidence of his arrogance an utter stupiditty ah mean COME ON….
I dont know whom this person Lance Hudson is but I like his thinking………………..Lance Hudson …. Zimmerman’s web of lies is backfiring on him.
The head of the security company, Mr. Rumbaugh, explains that Zimmerman requested far more security than necessary, utilizing surveillance, counter-surveillance, vehicle exchanges, costume changes in handicapped bathroom stalls, etc. Zimmerman’s wife, Shellie, demanded 2 security guards at all times. Those overkill measures made no sense from a security point of view. In retrospect, we can see that Zimmerman was fraudulently inflating his expenses in preparation for his bogus lawsuit against NBC where he will no doubt argue that it’s NBC’s fault that these unneeded security measures were ordered (but never paid for, heh heh).
Speaking of Zimmerman’s lawsuit against NBC, as you know Zimmerman is alleging that NBC edited his call to police in order to make him look like a racist. But ironically, bloggers have now revealed that Zimmerman’s own lawyers edited out his infamous words “f**king ****s” from the transcript in the lawsuit in order to make him look like he’s NOT a racist. So according to Zimmerman, it’s wrong for NBC to edit, but not for him!!!!!
All of the truth will be revealed and Zimmerman’s lies, fraud and deceit will come to light. I mean, we knew he was a murderer but now we see he’s also a scam artist and crook.
When the time comes, it will be very easy for Judge Nelson to impose a life sentence on this dirtbag
Colin, do you have a link to the source(s) of your Lance Hudson and Mr. Rumbaugh information? If so, could you please post them? Thanks in advance!
If you google Lance Hudson george zimmerman and Rumbaugh george zimmerman you will find them.
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/security-company-suing-george-zimmerman-attorney/nTc7d/
Thanks, Rachael and Blushedbrown!
@Rachael, your googling strategy is way more comprehensive than mine! I’ll start trying your strategy – and this might be one of those “teach a man to fish” moments, as the Peace Corps would say. 🙂
@groans
de nada 🙂
blushedbrown says:
December 22, 2012 at 11:53 am
Excellent post, Colin
………………..Oh thanks …..blushedred..now..
Awwwww, what a lovely shade of red it is.
Now that we have survived the December 21, 2012 apocalypse, I think the so-called civilized nations need to rethink their strategies. The Thugboat made the Top 10 GQ magazine Least Influential list. To me, his name is getting way too much publicity. I believe Trayvon will be on the 10 Most-Influential people someday. His murder sparked the debate about gun control and the new form of old racism. I believe there will be change, this time.
To all who post and to all who read said posts, I wish you all the best for this Holiday season and during the new year.
2013 is THE time for Humanity to come to terms with itself. I am a Canadian and am begging you to keep the focus on Gun Control. Focus on the Guns. Canada has the same percentage of citizens with mental health issues, the same movies, the same video games, but we do not have guns. Please, do not assign blame to anything other than firearms.
Gun deaths in Canada are generally gang or drug related with illegally obtained guns.
Stop the violence. Love your neighbours more than you love your guns.
Thank you for reading my plea.
I forgot to add – religion or lack thereof to my list of distractions.
i agree with focusing on the gun and not mental illness. i’m sick and tired of hearing ‘ awww, how sad, he was sick. how come his mom let guns in the house?’ i don’t care if his mom gave him a million guns. she didn’t tell him to go out and shoot up the school. the fact that she got shot by her own son using her gun is her punishment. but the idiot shot the school up simply because he’s a killer. not because he was mental or because his mom gave him a gun. That’s just bullshit.
i just know we aren’t getting rid of guns in this country because it’s a sort of a symbolic representation of being American, and it’s out dated as hell, but it is what it is.
so the focus should be making sure that people who have criminal records – even if charges have been dismissed for completing some court ordered anger management class is still a record.
GZ had two huge BRIGHT RED FLAGS that should have prevented him from ever getting a gun permit: arrest for violence and restraining orders for violence.
both of those are legal bases for denying him a gun permit. a 3 year delay period isn’t good enough for this kind of person. waiting for it was probably making him crazy just thinking about the day he could finally get *his right* back! It’s obvious he has self control problems. you don’t change your personality in 3 years. especially when it comes to criminal violence he was never held accountable for. if anything getting a permit was a sort of validation to him. since he *can* carry a gun then to him the state just sanctioned his behavior and gave him licence to do it.
@shannoninmiami, this thing fogen had his criminal record expunged and, IMO if a person has a charge of violence on their criminal record such as he had, I don’t think they should be able to have those crimes removed. his crimes were in no way minor incidents and, they should have never been wiped off of his record. this should apply to everybody and, then maybe there wouldn’t be quite so many people with violent behavior being able to own a gun or receiving a CCW permits. there is entirely to much gun violence in this country.
Great post, Grahase.
Hmmmm, I wonder if NBC should file an anti-SLAPP suit against FogenZim. Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation. Hmmmm.
I was unable to see recent activity on this thread and also unable to post. It had me very worried, and I am delighted to know now it was just a glitch. Wishing Fred & Cranestation the happiest of holidays!
Hi!!!I missed you guys!! 🙂
OK, i was just watching this show called Top 20 Most shocking shit caught on video. Today it’s about top losers in love or whatever. Its funny so i’m laughing and i look up and i see exactly HOW Trayvon got the scratch on the* Inside * of his ring finger and above the knuckle!
BTW. Omar needs to stop waving his stupid hand in the air and Lieing in court and TV, accusing Trayvon of having cuts on his knuckles.What an amazing blatant lie!
In a video of a drunk Russian guy being escorted to jail i think i saw exactly how Trayvon got the scratch from GZ!! These Russian cops were not tough or aggressive really. But the guy was a little unstable and needed some light encouragement by the two cops.
They didn’t use hand cuffs, they didn’t even look like they had guns, kinda like england. Instead one went to grab the drunk guy by the hand, and when he did the guy tried to take his hand away. So the cop used one hand to hold his arm and the other went to twist the drunk guy’s hand to keep hold on him. While he did his hand slipped and i saw how his nails would have scratched the inside of the drunk guy hand!
When he finally got a firm grip on the drunk guys wrist and got control he pulled it behind his back and made him walk. I froze when i saw that and my face went hot, and i know this is how Trayvon got scratched.
Then, right after the show ‘Cops’ came on and i swear, i watched them chase down 2 teenagers who were stealing and that’s when i saw how the cops brought those boys down to the ground. It was so scary seeing the cop holding the *Screaming* kid face down with one knee on his back and twisting his arm up behind his back! These cops were rough, but they were on camera so they probably kept their cool.
But to me it’s now so obvious how the POS was manhandling Tray and it makes it clear why there was that scratch on the inside of his finger and why he was screaming in pain and fear.
and who keeps saying “GZ gets more hate-able everyday”? cas they are so freaking dead on!
That would be me that says it regularly.
Yes! i remembered you said he gets more hate able and you don’t lie!
It doesn’t pay to lie as I said here many times The truth never changes but the lie always morphs.
enigma?? sorry spelling is not my 40 ..
Glad to hear an read your comments Cherokee Native missed you …Happpy End of The World is it here yet?
Both LMPappas recent vts put into sharp focous the gravitas of the accuseds predicament…He is flat out busted ..I also forgot about the..You gotta peice your gonna doe version..Even on the now infamous Hannatty interveiw..When talking about his need to shoot he says …It wasnt my gun .It wasnt his gun.It was just thee gun…I think thats the gist of what he says.An his entire reason for shooting Trayvon besides the life threating boo boos .Is because Trayvon knew he had a weapon.gun.H e either saw it .Or reached for it .rz JUNIOR..States or is it Ostterman there was an actuall grapple for the gun wich the defendant won.In his re enactment accuses states TRAYVON was reaching down his body towards the gun ..An yet a couple of sentances later after he shooots him one time…Suddenlly the accused is informing us that Trayvon infact has only just become of the weapon because he heard the bang when he fired it.Or as the accused would say discharged my weapon…..He sat up an said you got me you got it.And I thought he was saying I give up I know you have a weapon now ,I didnt even think Id hit him….Mmm he onlly knew he had a weapon after he shot.An yet the reason he had to shoot him was to stop him gaiining accsesss to thee gun..As Winston Churchill would say that stoty is ….An Inigma wrapped in a riddile encased in a contradiction.An burried in selfserveatude bs……………….
ChrisNY~Laurie says:
December 21, 2012 at 8:31 pm
Well remember the first thing he did was pay off all of their debt. That must have made him happy. Here is a link to what he did with all that money, but of course we don’t know for sure how much he is still getting or has gotten since in donations.
Click to access First-Supplemental-Discovery-6-1-12_R.pdf
How much of the 1,000,000 bond did he have to actually pay
..That wouldnt have maade him happy at all.In fact would have depressed the heck out of him..Ive met a few gz in my time an they refuse to adhere to the custom of paying bills..They move from adress to adress running up bills in rent utillitys ect often set up loans or get goods overr the internet or catalouges bounce checks right an left .An when the heat gets on an red reminders start arriveing the bailiffs turn up an they have moved on to pastures new to start all over again..They detest haveing to pay for anything no matter how small..FFS gz even calls the cops on his landlord when he had the audacity to ask for rent same thing on the guy hired to work at his non graduation party…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………He was awarded 16 grand in a court settlement an stiffed the lawers firm that won it for him for 4 thousand..Beleive you me gz haveing to part with that money to pay his back bills .Would have caused him more greif than murdering an innocent youth TRAYVON…..I once cornered a tightwad opertunist whom owed me money.An I made sure I got him in a situation where he had cash on his person .An I wasnt takeing no for an answer..It was about 370 pounds/700 dollars.An he started crying as he was parting with the money as I f I was takeing his children away
Colin B, that’s an important point about Fogen. When that money came in, he did not think it was fair that he would have to use it for a bond. He thought, since he was done wrong, that he should be let go on his own recognizance — after all, he was a decent American! He was a Neighborhood Watch Captain and a graduate of Associates Degree in Criminal Justice, how dare they require a bond from him! AND he earned that money fair and square by showing others like him how heroic he had been and how everybody was conspiring against him. It’s not FAIR for him to have to pay bond, pay lawyers, etc. All he did was shoot a thug! For the first time in his life people were recognizing him for the hero he WAS and along comes this unfair judge, motivated by anti-white racism (huh?) and tries to take his money! He had to fight that injustice! If you don’t fight injustice, you just aren’t being a good red-blooded (oops) American. ❗
Excellent post, Colin.
Thats brillliant LMPappa fogen contadicts himself tottaly telling the story of the shooting..He felt he saw the gun reached down towards it. An yet after he shot him Trayvon suddenly has no prior knowlage of the gun..I missed that contradictin tottaly I hope the defence hasnt.At least they wont when someone shows this to Bernie. ..Does it piss anyone else of fogens tone of voice when he describes shooting Trayvon .Nocholant uncareing mimmiliseing the event.No big deal ..I reached for my gun Shot him ..slight pause for efect..One time..As if he was doing Trayvon a favour by not emptying a full clip of 6 or 7 shots……..Into his heart..
I know. I mean, if I had shot someone – even if it HAD been in self-defense (which in the case of GZ it was NOT) I don’t think I could retell the taking of another human life without crying, no matter how “justified” it was, and if I had to reenact the scene just the very next day, I would still be very shaken about the whole thing.
GZ – not a care in the world. Not bothered in the lease.
least
Doesn’t ever pay his lease. Doesn’t honor obligations. Not for attorney, not for rented home, not for caterer, not for bodyguard, not for student loan, not for human decency.
I believe most police officers have to see a therapist after using their weapon in the field, especially after shooting and killing someone. Anyone who has a conscience will be traumatized from killing a person. Voldemort’s interview on SH proved that he does not have a conscience. It upset me so much every time he chuckled that I wanted to reach into the television and strangle him. Not even a single tear was shed for
Voldemort is also way too calm for a person that may be going to prison for the rest of his life.
Because GZ said he wasn’t sure if he actually shot Trayvon is why the State should add the charge that they tried and convicted Alexander for. GZ fired a gun in a residential district and he said that he saw residents come out on their patio. He gave no concern for where the bullet went and jumped on Trayvon’s back to purportedly restrain him. In the least, the State should add that charge on jury instructions along with the lesser charge of manslaughter.
They can add that charge later on. I think it is more important to argue the murder charge first.
No, the other residents were totally safe.
” He gave no concern for where the bullet went”……. YES HE DID… he aimed straight at the heart from a distance at which it was impossible to miss.
That’s not firing a gun in a residential district. That’s Murder 1.
@aussie
True, but we should hold GZ to his word and his actions in this matter.
@ aussie
Agree with Aussie, the fact he aimed, his own words, and even had the time, control and calculated thinking to make sure it wasn´t going to hit his hand, points more and more to murder 1. However, that said, it would be a huge burden for the state to prove so it´s probably best they stick to murder 2.
yup. add those extra 10 years to the back end of his life sentence so he’s guarenteed a new husband every decade:)
@Xena
His 2nd degree murder charge carries a maximum sentence of life in prison which means he will never get out. No point in upgrading the charge to 1st degree. It will be nice to see him rot in prison and never be allowed to have a child.
I didn’t suggest that the charge be upgraded to 1st degree murder. Rather, I suggested that the State add the alternative lesser charge of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. If convicted, that charge carries a statutory sentence of 20 yrs. That is the charge that Marissa Alexander was found guilty of for firing a gun into the house without intentions of shooting anyone.
In the same manner, GZ said he didn’t know if he had actually shot Trayvon, yet he fired in a residential area where residents were home, and showed no concern for where the bullet went and instead, jumped on Trayvon’s back to restrain and frisk him.
In Florida, an “aggravated assault” is an assault:
(a) With a deadly weapon without intent to kill; or
(b) With an intent to commit a felony.
I thought I read some time ago that Florida has a Murder 3. If anyone knows if that is true and what it would consist of. I remember finding it odd, and I am too Z saturated to research it.
@sdunn5
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html
Is 3rd degree murder equivalent to what is called manslaughter in many states?
Thanks Xena!!
One of the posts that tried to identify the background noises on the NEN call found two different sounds near the end of the call. One seems to be the banging of his flashlight, the other sounds a lot like he’s doing something with his gun. If the latter is true, he pulled his gun before he went hunting. This would make it Murder 1. I don’t advocate going for Murder 1, but I think that’s what it was.
Yes, it’s in the NeN call near the end, when he’s supposedly turned to go back to his truck you can hear the distinct difference in the sounds of him knocking on something, presumably the flashlight, and the kind of “spring loading” sound of a gun being wracked. IIRC there’s a long sound and a short sound, both have the reverberations you’d expect of spring loaded metal on metal, and it compares well with other tapes of the sound of a kel tec 9 being wracked.
The problem is, the sound of the knocking on the flashlight is just too intertwined with the wracking sounds, so, unless we envision GZ having more than two hands, his flashlight and phone account for the only two he has. Then the simplest explanation is that there is someone very close by wracking the gun or a gun, either his gun or Shelly’s. To me, I’d imagine MO performing a last minute weapons check for GZ and then handing the gun back. He’d know enough to used gloved hands for sure. Even though MO could easily account for his trace on the weapon, because of his frequent shooting sessions with GZ.
That man lives in la-la land.
Methinks you may have committed an error here because we better hope the prosecution doesn´t MISS this wonderful, yet another, GZ contradiction, because even if the defence didn´t miss it but spotted it I doubt they´d want to draw attention to it!
As with most lies, there might be some truth mixed in – like when GZ pulled the gun on Trayvon, he may have put his arms up and said (or thought) I know you have a gun, I’m giving up and GZ STILL shot him, that is no longer self-defense, even *if* Trayvon was oh so brutally beating him (gahhhh).
Anyway, this is probably where Trayvon was crying, begging and pleading and GZ can be heard interrogating.
This should be 1st degree murder!!!!!
Sigh – correction:
***even *if* Trayvon was oh so brutally beating him (gahhhh).
That should read even *if* Trayvon had been . . . as in prior to putting his arms up.
It is ridiculous how Voldemort had to use additional scenarios (ex. Martin trying to grab the gun) to justify his use of self-defense. It went from “Oh I’m getting my head pounded in” to “He was trying to grab the gun” to “It was God’s plan”. Somewhere along the lines he knew his concrete bashing/MMA fight story would not hold water and he added additional scenarios to further support his use of deadly force. The deadly assault and the reaching for the gun never happened because there is not a shred of evidence to support either scenario.
Get him LLMPapa. Gethimgethimgethim. Get George Zimmerman.
And what about the version, don´t know what interview etc. where he says Trayvon said:
“you gotta piece… your´re going to die tonight motherfucker”
It’s amazing that he claims to “mentor” Black kids and knows nothing of the jargon teenagers, regardless of race, use today. He probably watched “I’m Gon Git You Sucka” or “Blackula” from back in the day and came up with this stuff. I teach kids 5 days a week and communicate with them on Facebook 7 days a week. No self-respecting teenager would say this stuff. Maybe he figured white people would believe it. White parents, teachers, youth leaders, etc., have got to know this is ridiculous.
That evil horrible psychopath. That evil, EVIL horrible psychopath. And the video doesn’t even contain his “I fired one shot.” *Pause* *Smirk-shrug*
Great point. What a bunch of BS. No wonder Serino didn’t believe him. On top of this, it is the day after he received the “beating” that caused him to “fear for his life” and he has sissy bandages on that Serino knew weren’t necessary because of the nature of the surface lacerations.and GZ is moving with no problem. He is incredibly nonchalant about aiming a gun and shooting a kid in the heart the day before. GZ is a lying sociopath.
Here is LMPappas vt its further up site as well http://www.youtube.com/user/llmpapa?feature=results_main
Dear Mr. O’Mara:
I hope this letter finds you in good health. I’ve been reading the blogs and I can’t understand why they don’t believe me. I told them I forgot that I was carrying the gun that I always carried everywhere I go, except work. They don’t believe it. Look, it’s easy to forget that you have a 1.5 lb gun on your hip, most especially when you’ve taken great pains to find the most deadly ammunition you can load it with, and have loaded it to the hilt. Why can’t they accept that?
I know some minor mistakes were made the bond hearing, but I don’t see how that should have any bearing on what occurred that night, when Trayvon gave me that terrible life threatening beating, to within an inch of my life. Doesn’t all the blood he drew prove anything at all? I mean, look at me, I’m just one bloody pulp! Obviously the medic washed the blood off his body and took his clothing to the laundry before the police could collect the evidence, how else can they explain that he had no blood left on his hands?
Many strange things happened out there that night. Not the least of which is how Trayvon’s six or eight hands managed to disappear, before the witnesses could see them. Things were just working against me that night. Even the police were out there messing with the evidence and the witness testimony, so why doesn’t anyone believe me? It’s probably your fault because you just aren’t the lawyer you think you are. You can’t even convince the SP that Trayvon was a dangerous thug who, armed with deadly iced tea and a fatal package of skittles, was a threat to the lives of everyone in the entire neighborhood, not just me. They should be holding parades for me for saving their very lives from this terrible super thug.
Now, if you are a lawyer, I demand that you prove it, get the judge to take this thing off my leg and get the bondsmen to give me back my money so I can go somewhere safe. If not, I’m going to have to start firing people starting with you.
Sincerely
George M. Zimmerman (A Decent American)
Great letter!
I almost forgot that hollow-points are prohibited from being used by the military internationally. It is silly that we still use bombs even though a hollow-point bullet is called cruel and inhumane. Hollow-points are used by law enforcement mainly because there is a much lower chance of the bullet hitting any bystanders. Since Voldemort shot and killed an innocent teenager, it would be safe to assume he did not choose hollow-points to prevent the harm of any innocent people nearby. He bought them for stopping power and the fact that they burst apart from the impact. There is a much higher chance of death from someone being shot from a hollow-point because vital organs will be hit with the shrapnel. Any competent gun owner going into law enforcement knows this. If he had to use his weapon, he wanted that person to die.
That is exactly what I mean when I say that he had specifically purchased hollow points for his gun. He knew that he had turned an already deadly weapon, into an “Especially” Deadly weapon. From one that could kill, to one that was almost certain to kill, if and when fired.
Along with that extra deadliness, comes an awareness of the need for extra special concern. As in, a weapon loaded with hollow point bullets, should not be fired at someone, if there exists the slightest doubt that can or will kill you if they are not shot.
GZ had no reason to believe that an unarmed late teen could kill with only his bare hands, even if such a child could draw blood! Therefore, he should not have fired his ESPECIALLY DEADLY WEAPON, at dubiously “deadly” attack, even if it was actually being waged. Because, without a firearm, no reasonable person could believe that a late teen’s bare handed assault could be deadly at all. It only makes matters worse to know, the evidence shows that attack never happened at all.
Finally, you do not scream for help, at the top of our lungs, while you are questioning someone. GZ asking questions is heard on the 911 tape. He is loud enough to be picked up by a phone nearly 20 feet or more away.
Mr . Zimmerman 12/23/2012
While it may seem that things were not very clear that night, and admittedly there was a lot of confusion, may I point out that even though you may have forgotten you were armed that night, that is no excuse. I really wish you had informed me at some point in April that you did not in fact, have a valid permit for your pistol.
Since this a stumbling block that may be impossible to clear, along with the fact that you called Mr. Martin a “fucking coon” not to mention an “…asshole…” who always gets away, and followed him for some time prior to his death, I do not appreciate the comment you made “…you just aren’t the lawyer you think you are.’ Remember, it was you who came to me in desperation when Sonner & Uhrig terminated the relationship for your failure to communicate.
It is not as easy as you may think to scare a Judge into granting everything we need. For the record.I am Lawyer recognized by the Florida Bar and I have some certificate on the wall to prove it. I also do not appreciate the continued references to Ronald Hughes Esq. who as we know, was the attorney for Charles Manson who disappeared before his trial began.
As far as any parade in your honor, that was a possibility until you started telling more than one version of your side of the events that night. There is one internet poster who continually states in jest and I quote “Mr. Zimmerman, you have the right to remain silent” and the response that this person gives is actually accurate. It is “……….um, ok, but why would I do that, I have so many more versions to tell you”
In addition to that, your reenactment has some serious flaws as pointed out by the prosecution and common sense. Can you have the same computer tech who altered the pictures that we said were taken that night remove all of LLMPapa’s videros ? It seems that if the prosecutions views any of these and uses the information from them to bolster their claim of 2nd Degree Murder, I may need to recommend a plea bargain. Now I know how you get agitated about that topic, but just think about that.
My staff are reading these blogs and I must say, the people who call themselves “Team Trayvon” are having a far greater influence on a potential jury pool than your family and friends. They have even determined who’s names you dad, brother and friends are using and it is not helping.
Needless to say, when you and Shellie lied to Judge Lester about how much money you had and even though I went along with the 2nd passport bit, That didn’t help your credibility. By the way, are there any more interviews scheduled ? I firmly believe you need to retract or at least rephrase the “skipping” aspect and use a word such as “…jogging..” instead.
The fact that there have been murders in everything from schools to movie theaters since your unfortunate incident in which guns were used does not help in any event.
I have sent you an Invoice which is number GZ3DH1 and I am hoping the full amount can be sent to my office before Christmas as I have shopping to do as do you.
Tell the family to hang in there and please try to stay off the internet.
Mark O’ Mara
My side hurts. ROFLMAO!!
Not far from reality either.
Have a Great Christmas to all here !!
LLMPapa is a genius! I really needed that laugh. Please check out LLMPapa new vid (sorry do not know how to placed the video here)
Thanks LLMPapa!
My apologies! I did not see LLMpapa’s earlier post. Please disregard.
Here’s a little info on that voice-stress test stuff:
http://www.nij.gov/journals/259/voice-stress-analysis.htm
Basically, it does not detect lies. It detects STRESS.
With someone like Fogen, who feels stressed when he’s telling the TRUTH (if ever he DOES), it will not detect lies. If you were to ask Fogen the following questions you might hear some stress:
Did it occur to you when you were on the phone with NEN that they really thought you were a wuss?
Aren’t you ashamed that a 17-year-old kid with no bouncer training was able to subdue you and dominate you for more than two minutes while all your wuss-ass could do was scream help?
Did you think you were a qualified NW captain if you couldn’t even make it out of an encounter with a candy-carrying kid without massive injuries and close to death?
Don’t you realize you’re ugly and your mother dresses you funny?
Are you scared of prison, Cheorge?
Did Shellie dump you, Cheorge?
What’s the reason Shellie never got pregnant, Cheorge?
Cheorge, did you ever French-kiss a man?
Does it make you feel good when you lie on the bed with a kid under 12?
THEN you’d see some stress, NOT from lying. Lying doesn’t cause Fogen ANY stress if he thinks he’ll get away with it.
ROFLMFAO!!! You’re killing me!
Just watched Daves new vt an it coclussivelly proves fogen could have returned to his truck before he had even ended his convestion with the disspatcher..If as he has said often he went to ttl for an adress lingred a short time about turned still talkin to dispatch .Of course not only would he have made it back to his truck before he ended his call.He would also have been attacked by Trayvon before he ended his call.This is if we beleive his version of events an movements..Even his own attempt at mittigating /excuseing .justifying his neeed to shoot his time line is whak.Doesnt fit with his non emergancy call.An is further proof as if any were requred that he is an atroucious arrogant liar.Whom holds us in contempt m o o…………ps an LMPappa Im speechless we all knew the blood flow direction proves his story of being pinned below Trayvon was a crock.But you reveal the immpossability of his claims beutifully..Even a dolt like him cant fail to see.Im sure if we post a copy of your film to gzlegal site.He cant fail to see the gravity of his predicament..Thanks for all you do for Trayvon and his loved ones……….
Geography, timing, credibility, dna, physics, science, biology, witnesses, audio, video, psychological profile, and more
Xena has frank taffe been sendin you emails?
LOL!!! I wish he would. I’d have him sucking his thumb while standing on one foot humming “God bless America.”
I almost spit my tea, Xena!
@Two sides. Sorry about the tea. 🙂
LOLOLOLOLL sucking his thumb!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i STOP IT IT HURTSS!lolo
I bet he’s not giving them Christmas tips either. Probably he’s giving each of them an autographed THANK YOU card.
Yeah. He wanted that ankle bracelet off before his body-guards quit, didn’t he?
Why didnt Fogenhats get his legion of black friends to help him?
“. . . he’s giving each of them an autographed THANK YOU card.”
OMG, I’m laughing so hard it hurts!
Xena perhaps you were a dog in another incarnation..All dogs are drawn to fire hydrants…
LOL! Well, I’ve been called a female dog but never a male dog, so I guess that’s a compliment. 🙂
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-bodyguard-suit-20121221,0,5700275.story
Thanks – just coming back to post it.
It’s all God’s plan.
Heh. God’s got a sense of humor, all right!
GZ had no idea that when he said it was God’s plan, it was an invitation to God to step in and speak for himself through actions. GZ ain’t seen nothin’ yet.
http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/Search.aspx?ID=100%2c101%2c102%2c103%2c200%2c201%2c202%2c203%2c204%2c205%2c206%2c207%2c208%2c209%2c210%2c211%2c212%2c213%2c214%2c215%2c216%2c217%2c300%2c301%2c302%2c303%2c304%2c305%2c306%2c307%2c308%2c309%2c310%2c311%2c312%2c313%2c314%2c315%2c316%2c317%2c318%2c319%2c320%2c321%2c322%2c400%2c401%2c402%2c403%2c404%2c405%2c406%2c407%2c500%2c501%2c502%2c503%2c504%2c505%2c507%2c508%2c600%2c601%2c602%2c603%2c604&NodeID=100%2c101%2c102%2c103%2c200%2c201%2c202%2c203%2c204%2c205%2c206%2c207%2c208%2c209%2c210%2c211%2c212%2c213%2c214%2c215%2c216%2c217%2c300%2c301%2c302%2c303%2c304%2c305%2c306%2c307%2c308%2c309%2c310%2c311%2c312%2c313%2c314%2c315%2c316%2c317%2c318%2c319%2c320%2c321%2c322%2c400%2c401%2c402%2c403%2c404%2c405%2c406%2c407%2c500%2c501%2c502%2c503%2c504%2c505%2c507%2c508%2c600%2c601%2c602%2c603%2c604&NodeDesc=Orange+County
ohhhh I didn’t see other link, Professor please delete.
Does OS have an exclusive contract with MOM? They are the only news outlet that have more direct info from MOM.
“Does OS have an exclusive contract with MOM?”
Sanford is basically part of “greater Orlando.” so they do more coverage, and have two reporters regularly covering the case. The Miami Herald was doing a fair bit of coverage, but their reporter on the TM/GZ beat was hired away by the NYT. MOM also knows Sentinal reporter Rene Stutzman consistently gives GZ the benefit of the doubt in the way she frames her stories.
For the national media, George Zimmerman is “old news”, and you shouldn’t expect to see any significant stories coming from media outlets outside FL unless/until the case come to an SYG hearing or trial.
Next lawsuit will be from the cousin whom the defendant molested for a decade
Thank you for the article! It was very funny to see more if the media seeing through GZs scams and lies. Alas the single digit IQ John Does who write in GZs support are still yelling about racism, race baiters, Al Sharpton, etc. it’s beyond time for them to buy a clue.
Sent from my iPod
what is most stupid is…
people are race baiting because Fogenhats targeted and stalked a person whom the defendant described as suspicious and his reasoning is a black male who had his hand in his waistbands, walking around looking about, and then Fogenhats stalked, attacked, terrorized and murdered the kid
and people think he may be racist because of that
and it is the majority of the public and Al Sharpton who are race baiting?
My my – isn’t this interesting?
I haven’t checked it out yet, but passing it along.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Tre Anthony
63 Fans Become a fan
38 minutes ago ( 5:10 PM)
A security company has filed suit against murder suspect George Zimmerman, his wife and attorney, Mark O’Mara, accusing them of failing to pay $27,000 for bodyguards. Associated Investigative Services filed suit in state circuit court in Orange County.
It alleges it’s due the money for protecting Zimmerman and his wife, Shellie. O’Mara has said for months that a legal defense fund fed by Internet PayPal donations is running low. Last month, Zimmerman announced plans to ramp-up fund-raising, writing in a blog post that he would now start sending autographed thank you cards to donors. It’s not clear if that effort, along with a revamped and updated webpage, has boosted giving.
So far, conned donors have contributed an estimated $340,000 to Zimmerman.
Details about the lawsuit against Zimmerman, his wife and O’Mara can be found at this link:
http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/CaseDetail.aspx?CaseID=8337253
Lawsuits filed in court must list the last known address of each party, so I have sent a couple folks down to the courthouse in Orange County to track that information down. And once they obtain it, it will be circulated as a matter of public record.
HAHA!! I believe Fogen is having his family members stash the money away offshore so he can make a run for it. As in “sh*t, he’s running”!
This way, he fails to pay for everything, he squirrels the money away, O’Mara keeps everybody running around with motions, and one of these days, UH OH Fogen’s missing and the signals from his ankle are scrambled or blocked or gee whizz bang the cops just can’t figure out what the signals mean or the video isn’t working or something —
It’s about $350 for a forged passport. Less than that for a disguise. Over the border to Mexico — Fogen speaks Spanish.
THEN they’ll all say it happened because the New Black Panthers threatened him again. He had to run to protect Shellie. Or, if Shellie has already run…
I think that all 1,156 people who signed the “malicious prosecution” petition should send GZ one dollar, and request that an autographed thank you card be sent to an address in another country. (snicker)
since most Zimmernuts each have 10 profiles, it is more likely 116 signatures, minus another 20 for the joke signatures
My bet is Cuba.
On a tv show the guy took the ankle bracelet off and put it on a cat. The cat’s movement made it look like the guy still had it on while he went out the fire escape.
@bettykath
“My bet is Cuba.”
No way Cuba would give him asylum, no way!
Okay – Fogen hasnt paid the lawyers. He hasnt paid the security company.
What exactly has he been paying. Of $340,000.00, he paid 100,000.00 for bail.
$240,000.00 divided by how many months!!!!
Food and shelter and other comforts of home. Give me a break! He is hoarding it and getting ready to bolt, IMO
It should please GZ’s supporters to know that their donations paid for Papa Zim to have security to the airport. That’s living expenses and legal defense, right?
Well remember the first thing he did was pay off all of their debt. That must have made him happy. Here is a link to what he did with all that money, but of course we don’t know for sure how much he is still getting or has gotten since in donations.
Click to access First-Supplemental-Discovery-6-1-12_R.pdf
How much of the 1,000,000 bond did he have to actually pay?
As a general rule the bonds man want’s a 10% fee, then collateral to cover the rest. My guess is that the Zimmerman family didn’t have 900k in collateral, in which case the bonding Co., will want additional cash to cover their risk. So he could have easily been required to give the bond company the entire 250k remaining. Of course, since this is a high profile case, the bond co could safely take less. My guess is they probably charged around 150k for the million dollar bond, plus whatever collateral the family had to pledge.
he paid a bond company 10% with no collateral
No collateral? I guess the bonds man was eager to get a hold of that fee, it isn’t everyday he comes to work and collects 100k. Also, he probably believes that GZ is so high profile, he’d have little chance of escaping.
I thought Mom and Dad had their own website. And, by the way, how is Junior able to flit country-wide without visible means of support. He has said he lost his job.
Could Ma & Pa Zim have put their house up for collateral? Wonder if it was one of the more expensive homes in that area…could be worth a lot.
Well if Zimmernuts Fogenhats bails on the trial…
The bond company is out 1 million… until they catch him
so…
The bond company will want to put the Shaolin Tiger claw on his behind if the defendant bails
Now, now Rachael, don’t be malicious. 🙂 Chances are that since GZ is represented by legal counsel, O’Mara was served with the summons at his office.
I didn’t write that – the entire thing was copied from another site – that was a comment the poster who posted it left.
Okay. Then they can be malicious. 🙂
From the news article:
Everything is not paradise with the independent trustee. If it happens to be a member of GZ’s family, there could be a plan about for his escape from justice.
Is O’Mara the independent trustee?
@gblock, I doubt that O’Mara is the independent trustee. He wasn’t previously. I suspect it would have to be someone who is not on the State’s witness list, although Junior is the voice in the media crying about threats and lack of money. Kinda telling that GZ is displeased with O’Mara not being able to convince people to give more money. I wonder how those autographed thank you cards are working for him?
The whole autograph thing sounds arrogant, callous, and remorseless (clumsy word). How could MOM even allow him to do something so stupid?
you can quote me. “They are more Hateable every day”
What happened the last time the defendant said he was broke?
I do not feel the security company will buy the “broke murderer” story because of what happened in court
He’s hiding money again
They said he had $340,000
but now he is suddenly broke?
yes, and the world ended today too LOL
That’s in total since April. At $7,000 a week for security, he couldn’t leave his safe house, so security made grocery and toilet paper runs, took GZ’s parents places, took GZ to O’Mara’s office and depositions, and probably walked the dogs too.
I have never got why he even truly needed security
No one is going to attack him
The state of Florida and the federal government is already putting their footprints into his culo, so there is no need for anyone to do anything to him
I believe people want him to actually experience prison and taking his life would take that away from everyone
I tend to disagree. There are some that do not trust the justice system in the State of Florida. There are also alot of nuts with guns. There are probably some that would off him for the newsworthiness and infamy it comes with. If I were him, I would be very afraid.
LOL Jun,”su culo” ! LOL!
Feliz Navidad!
Way ToF’en GO Rachael!! Awesome!!
“So far, conned donors have contributed an estimated $340,000 to Zimmerman”
well remember almost every single time omar talks about where the money goes he says the security is owed money and he always says they only have $50K left! so i’m not surprised they aren’t getting paid what they want. And i think omar knows it’s a huge waste of money! but you know GZ thinks he’s so damn important and loves the attention from anyone- even if he has to pay them!!
LOLO
the problem with the security company is they would’ve loved the free advertisement they thought they would get from ‘guarding’ GZ. but nothing has happened!!! so there’s no press about them!LOLOL
i wonder how JR is doing? is GZ lending his loving brother bodygaurds for his world tour??
“but you know GZ thinks he’s so damn important and loves the attention from anyone- even if he has to pay them!!”
The thing is, he hasn’t paid them. It is the “even if he has to pay them” part I take issue with. He seems to have a problem paying bills.
Think of how he got his other bills paid. He didn’t pay the. The money other people sent him paid them.
Now that he has these bills, his new way to get bills paid is to sue people – TV stations, newspapers and high-profile people.
It seems GZ has never taken responsibility of anything he does, and that includes paying bills.
Look how high he has built this pyramid scheme of his.
I think his days of conning for dollars will be over very soon.
you know he was convinced the TV interview would have the money rolling in again. and so was Omar. but it backfired and to this day they are still trying every trick in the book to convince the ‘masses’ he’s in danger!
he thought the money would keep on coming and that’s the only reason he paid off his old bills! oh and what a year of Internet service in advance??? LOL oh and phone service for them both!! and the bullet proof jackets for him, shellie and omar!! big spender huh?!!LOL moron.
but he was doing the suing for years before. and remember he also got sued by the credit card companies – they were each sued for running up CCs buying a bunch of stuff and never paying. total scum bags. they would each run up a card in his name then get one in her name and do it all agian/
SZ: Yeah, they do, trust me. And boy, after that happened yesterday, he said like, so many people, your-your site kept crashing.
GZ: Wow
SZ: He said people were just trying to give you, you know, words of support and kindness.
GZ: Good, Wow, that’s awesome.
SZ: Yeah
GZ: They need to, and to talk to uh, O’Mara about getting the word out because i mean those people need to start vocalizing themselves.
Q: Do you want them to meet you by the mailboxes?
A: Actually, could you tell them to call me when they get here?
Yeah. No problem. No problem, homie, that’s just fine. “Call me, the minute, you get there — ” No problem, homie.
This is Dave’s latest. For some reason, that fire hydrant keeps calling my name. Could GZ have fallen on it, hitting his head?
I dont think so. The hydrant is hard metal and steel. Falling on it would cause a more significant injury
You could be right, but that fire hydrant still keeps calling my name.
Also, he has not exited his truck at this point in time.
Xena, maybe you were a male dog in a previous incarnation? 🙂
I hear a ring tone right after the NEN operator days, “you’re welcome” at the very end of the call. I wonder if that’s Trayvon’s ring tone.
GZ ended his NEN call at 7:13:39 whereas DeeDee called Trayvon at 7:12. GZ had also made changes in his plans on where to meet the cops and to have them call him for his location, indicating that he heard Trayvon’s phone ringing and/or heard him talking before he changed his plans.
I too have heard a phone ring at the end of that call — don’t know if someone else was with GZ or if it’s in the background of the dispatch office.
For a complete breakdown of rain (how much at what time) and wind speed (how much and what time), please go to tchoupis charts:
http://imgur.com/a/bcAII
alot of excellent analysis done by whonoze and tchoupi can be found on bcclist.com
I encourage those who have not visited the site, to do so.
Only 0.25 inch of rain for that 24-hour period.
But, 0.21 inch or more makes a Black kid in a hoodie look reeeeeeeeal suspicious.
Oh no, it looks like GZ is gonna have to sue MSNBC commentators; Michael Eric Dyson and Michael Isikoff for comments made today on the Martin Bashir show. They jokingly suggested that NRA head Wayne Lapierre’s solution for automatic weapon vioence in schools could be detered by hiring George Zimmerman to patrol and protect our innocent school children. LOL. I wouldn’t put it past him, he needs the dough.
the rain was very light and indeed had stopped or almost stopped when the murder happened….i saw somewhere there was less than .25 inch of rain for the whole 24 hour period.
Actually, during the event, from 1730 to 1830 there was minimum precipitation. From 1615 until 1730 hrs, .02 inches per hour. During the event, there was .09 inches per hour – the heaviest in the 24-hr. period. During the event, there was almost no wind.
So, sorry, the rain was not light and it had rained more during the event than at any other time within that 24-hr. period.
A quarter inch of rain in such a short period of time is pretty well a downpour.
The clubhouse video of the pool shows a downpour at one time. I’m not sure of the exact time, but the rain is observed coming down fast.
http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/CaseDetail.aspx?CaseID=8337253
Found It!
????? the shooting happened at 1917, as i said AFTER most of the rain had stopped or was very light, TY for confirming i was correct…..the quarter of an inch total was for 24 hours!
have any of you seen any picture of fogen with his clothes WET? his clothing clearly dont appear to have been in any downpours in any of the pictures.
I love it! Have any of the Fogen lovers given their explaination of how Fogen’s blood ran up? I don’t think I’ve read any comments from them on it. I guess they would just give the usual ignorant answer of Fogen didn’t start bleeding until after he got out from under Trayvon..forget that there wasn’t any blood smear at all on the back of his head…oh wait the rain washed it off, then he bled again.LOL…gotta do better than that and guess what??…it ain’t gonna happen. 🙂
Yep, the treepers have discussed this – right after bashing our dear LLMSPapa:
ottawa925 says:
December 21, 2012 at 9:30 pm
It seems the goofs over at the Trayvon camp are giddy as all get out cause they have discovered gravity. And that the blood on George’s head would have been effected by gravity, and that the blood should not have dripped down along to the ear area. Boy, they are a bright bunch aren’t they? However, blood experts will be glad to explain how blood gets in all kinds of places you wouldn’t think it would get, or travel in ways that different from other liquids. Cause each liquid has it’s own componets. THE SURFACE it is on also can contribute to how a liquid would travel. Blood, almost has a greasy feel fresh, however, it begins to dry very quickly, unlike water, and blood as it dries can begin to direct fresh blood in another direction. That’s just off the top of my pointed head. Apparently, the dim bulbs over at Trayvon’s camp think blood should just drip straight down and nowhere else. I’m sure some did, however, in the rain, in the dark, how to do find the exact spot?
James F says:
December 22, 2012 at 1:01 am
Let’s see… who should we rely on for analysis of the blood flow? Should we trust a psychotic, dimwitted, convicted felon, armchair “forensic expert” like LamePapa or a real forensic scientist like Dr. Larry Kobilinsky, who concluded that the blood flow proves Zimmerman was lying in a horizontal position, not vertical, and moving his head around?
What about that photo showing Zimmerman’s bloodied head shortly after the shooting? “Blood is going to move in the direction that gravity pulls it in,” Kobilinsky said. “That will help explain the position of Zimmerman’s body and head after the trauma took place.”
The track of blood in the photo suggests that Zimmerman was not vertical when the bleeding occurred, Kobilinsky said. “He had been moving, apparently. But vertical, no.”
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2012/04/george-zimmerman-how-crucial-is-trayvon-martins-autopsy.html
They think “not vertical” means “Fogen is innocent”?
To me, “not vertical” means Fogen was leaning over Trayvon Martin, who was on his back on the ground pleading and screaming as Fogen shot the hollowpoint bullet through his hoodie and into his chest. I done the math; that’s “not vertical.”
Interesting they listen to Koblinisky for that but dismiss this:
“Martin’s autopsy indicated that medical examiners found THC, the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana, when they tested Martin’s blood and urine. The amount described in the autopsy report is such a low level that it would have played no role in Martin’s behavior, said Larry Kobilinsky, a professor of forensic science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York.
“This kind of level can be seen days after somebody smokes,” Kobilinsky said. “If it comes up in the case, I would be surprised. It wouldn’t benefit the defense, it wouldn’t benefit the prosecution, and if the defense tried to bring it up, the judge would keep it out.”
LOL
it seems they can not even understand gravity
cant they see the blood is supposed to flow downward and judging by the pattern, he had his head bent forward the whole time when that injury occurred
and the blood got everywhere except Trayvon’s hands or sleeves
and the defendant was not vertical. he was bent 45 degrees forward when that injury occurred and he sustained that position while the bleeding occurred
hence… the blood flowing downward, and as you can see, the direction is toward the ears
so sounds like a double fail from racists who do not understand physics
Yes, JUN, notice also that the blood makes this pattern in one continuous flow. There is no stopping and restarting, there is no interruption or smearing. Thus, as you say, the head had to be held in position, until the blood coagulated. Even the drizzling rain would have provided enough moisture to thin the blood and cause it to spread and smear.
But, since it takes about 6.5 minutes for blood to coagulate and for the trials and rivulets to become fixed, we have to look for a place where GZ had that kind of time. From the time he leaves home around 7:05, till the time the police arrive at 7:17 he’s only got 12 action packed minutes, with the blood flow supposedly starting in the last 2.5 minutes or less, before the first photo of it is taken.
So, then, where is there six and a half minutes available for him to hold his head in one position while the blood flow fixes itself? The only answer is at home, and at home lines up with dried blood being seen by the medics.
So, that’s two artifacts that require more time than GZ had available to him, once he left home. The dried blood requires over an hour, while the rivulets and blood trails required 6.5 minutes and a dry place to congeal.
Because of these two separate facts, which each require more time than GZ had available once he left home, I have to conclude that the simplest explanation is: He prepared these wounds at home, anything else requires a narrative too complex to be reasonable.
Now, working back from there, if he created these wounds at home, then he needed even more advanced notification. He could not have simply recieved a call, cut himself and left the house. He needed enough advanced notice, to create the wounds and fix the blood trails and rivulets in place, and still be able to leave home in time to be ahead of TM getting home. That requires that TM was being watched along the way. But, since he can’t be expected to leave home on a rainy Sunday night, his leaving home has to, most likely be provoked somehow.
I’ll theorize that someone who knew TM, called him to set up a meeting, most likely place is the 711. Would TM come out to get a blunt? Was that the offer that brought him out to the store that night? Stay tuned, there’s a whole lot more going on than meets the eye here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_direction
What the Outhousers say about the blood — I do not attribute that to an ignorance about physics or to any inability to understand. Just as I don’t attribute the Zimmerman family’s protestations on behalf of Fogen to be attributable to their inability to understand that Fogen is a murderer. What I think is that all of them are doing just what Fogen did: deciding that since the reality is not going to get him what he wants this time, he will promote some fantasy that works better for him.
LOL! Maybe blood is like mercury and flows anywhere it wants! Did those geniuses actually graduate elementary school? Sent from my iPod
“Because of these two separate facts, which each require more time than GZ had available once he left home, I have to conclude that the simplest explanation is: He prepared these wounds at home, anything else requires a narrative too complex to be reasonable.:
Lonnie, actually you are showing a propensity for choosing complex explanations requiring a complex narrative over simple ones. You’re requiring that someone keep an eye on him long in advance of the incident while GZ prepares his injuries, as well as the participation in the conspiracy of some unknown teens. It is also unlikely that Trayvon received a blunt: he didn’t have it on him, and he hadn’t smoked it along the way (indicated by the level of THC in his blood being too low).
A far simpler explanation is that GZ had somehow received injuries accidentally some minutes before he met up with Trayvon, even though we don’t know exactly how he received them.
One of the EMTs wrote that GZ’s head boo-boo was caused by a thrown object. They also wrote that the blood on his head had dried. One EMT noted one laceration on the head while another noted two. Let’s keep this all in memory about his injuries when discussing when they happened.
Rather than taking all of his injuries to have occurred on 2/26, we might consider that some did, while others did not. Also, rather than consider when the injuries with the dried blood occurred, maybe we should consider that the blood was dry because it was not GZ’s blood, originating from any wound on him.
From the onset, it has always been my impression that GZ touched Trayvon’s wound, getting blood on his hands, and put that blood on his head. Note, this does not address his face — just his head where the EMTs said the blood had dried.
Does anyone detect a finger pattern of blood on the back of GZ’s head? A finger running pattern that goes behind the ears to the neck without running down to the jacket collar? It could be that GZ was not bleeding at all for there to be a gravity effect. But, if he insists, then the trail and gravity is not to his benefit.
I’ve pondered the possibility that GZ was in a fight or drunken accident the Friday or Saturday before 2/26th and that is how he got his head boo-boos. Being already there, all he needed was blood. It didn’t have to be his blood.
@ gblock, you said: “Lonnie, actually you are showing a propensity for choosing complex explanations requiring a complex narrative over simple ones. You’re requiring that someone keep an eye on him long in advance of the incident while GZ prepares his injuries, as well as the participation in the conspiracy of some unknown teens. It is also unlikely that Trayvon received a blunt: he didn’t have it on him, and he hadn’t smoked it along the way (indicated by the level of THC in his blood being too low).
A far simpler explanation is that GZ had somehow received injuries accidentally some minutes before he met up with Trayvon, even though we don’t know exactly how he received them.”
===================================
Exactly the opposite! You are making it more complex than it is, by tracing through it in reverse, ignoring the evidentiary “sign posts” that guided us through the maze of possible theories, to get us to a point.
Thus, if you say that the blood evidence means nothing, then you can say that I’m making things more complex, by theorizing that he created these injuries at home, because of all that entails.
What you are forgetting is: 1. The fact is we have no idea where these injuries came into being. We have, so far, only the self serving word of a man who is a proven liar.
2. We do have ball park figures about how blood acts and reacts, and we do have indications of what was supposed to have occurred.
You say “it’s far simpler to believe GZ had somehow recieved his injuries, accidentally some minutes before he met Trayvon”
Yes, I’ll agree that it would be far simpler to believe that. But the real question is, “Would that be the truth?”
Well, we know it takes 6.5 minutes for undiluted blood to coagulate.
Okay, from the time GZ leaves his truck at 7:13 or so, until the police arrive, there’s only about 4 minutes for GZ to “accidentally” injure himself somehow.
Now, we look at the picture, taken of the back of his head at the scene, and we look at the picture taken of the same head at the station. The blood trails are exactly the same. What that means is, the blood rivulets and trails in the photo taken at the scene, had already stopped flowing. Out in the rain, in less that 4 minutes, you’re saying we should believe that GZ’s blood somehow avoided absorbing any rain water, and coagulated faster than blood normally does? By 2.5 minutes yet?
Now, look at those same blood trails, and you see they represent an undisturbed flow of blood. Do you think it’s easy to believe that blood will form undisturbed trails and rivulets, while the head is constantly moving about and changing direction/orientation? Or, is the simplest explanation that the head was held still while the blood flowed and coagulated? In a dry place, so that it became fixed, before it was exposed to rain which would have thinned it and made the edges of the rivulets and trails blur.
It’s like skiing a Shalom, where the evidence provides the posts that you must keep your theorizing within. So, then, what is the simplest way to account for the head being held still while the blood flows congealed? Theorizing that this happened after he left home, requires us to believe in an extremely complex narrative.
Far too complex to be true. Because, for example, he would have had to sit quietly in his truck for 6.5 minutes while the blood congealed. Where is there that kind of time? Did he also bring along a hair dryer with a cigarette lighter adapter to help speed the drying of the blood? Which view is becoming more complex? That he left home with these wounds and blood already fixed, or that he somehow took pains to create the illusion, after he left?
Tchoupi’s work shows us that GZ left home, approximately 2 minutes before the NeN call begins. From there on, GZ is a whirlwind of activity. From 7:09 to 7:17, GZ is almost constantly in motion and out standing and moving about in the rain. This cannot account for the evidence we’re seeing. So I’ve given you the simplest explanation for the evidence we’re seeing, not the simplest explanation that ignores significant evidence.
Lonnie- and your explanation is EXACTLY why your theory is compelling. The time that it takes for blood to dry is forensic science. That, along with the bullet’s trajectory, cannot be altered by a story.
Sent from my iPod
Thank you cielo62, it’s the evidence that is requiring the complex narrative to explain it, not me weaving a complex narrative to create an interesting conspiracy theory.
After explaining that a person, who may or may not be a blood spatter expert, provided us with a ballpark about bloody drying.
Where he stated that he found that blood, on a hard surface, dried in 70 minutes at room temperature in low humidity. I’m still reading missives about theories that GZ’s injuries might have been gained accidentally, while he was out there in the rain.
They should take a drop of blood and try the experiment themselves.
Then look at the picture of GZ’s injuries taken no longer than 2.5 minutes after they could possibly have happened. Look at the blood flow and see if they can show us, how a head moving around vigorously in the rain, could have such blood flows, showing no interruption for any cause, less any change in direction of flow, while he was engaged in all this activity he and the witnesses cite.
The pictured blood flows can only be the result of having the head held in a constant position, with very little if any movement, and certainly no abrupt movements, or the blood trails will change direction and show interruption.
Then, realize that the NeN call happened at 7:09pm, and the police arrived at 7:17pm, so GZ has 8 minutes to have the blood start flowing down, and he has to hold his head still for 6.5 minutes approximately. Where in the less than 8 minutes since the NeN call began, can anyone find the 6.5 minutes needed for GZ to hold his head steady? Less, find over an hour for blood to dry, on a soft surface, in the rain (high humidity) at 12 degrees less than room temperature.
The only place the requirements are to be found, one and all, are before he left home. Where he could have the heat on, so that the blood is warm and kept dry, so it might dry faster, while there is plenty of time for it to congeal as well, without interruption by any need to perform actions.
I guess some people don’t believe in science, but if so, they have no need of reading investigative materials or theories about anything. Because any theory relies on definitive things being known about a variety of things. If one doesn’t believe in science, then they are able to believe anything at all. But “anything at all” doesn’t happen. People don’t simply disappear into thin air while you watch. Food doesn’t cook itself in an instant, even if it’s called “instant” this or that. Things thrown up come down. And it takes time to travel distances. Anyone who doesn’t believe it, hasn’t been paying attention to what’s been happening around them all their lives. Is why I go ballistic when I hear nonsense about “Creationism” and such. It simply defies the logic we’ve learned to rely upon all our lives. Has any ball player ever hit a ball that did not come back to earth? That’s reliance on science! No matter what anyone tries to tell you.
LOL! With me, you’re preaching to the choir. Blood is a fairly well known liquid whose properties have been studied. I hope the prosecutors use this information. Still, even if they don’t, GZs goose is cooked.
Sent from my iPod
Unless they find someone else to charge we’ll never find out about it. As it stands they can follow it up as long and however they want, since it would be part of their work product, it doesn’t have to be disclosed to the defense. However, I wouldn’t put it past them discovering something. My only question is whether or not it will be enough to bring charges against anyone else. If not, it might also be used to turn someone in lieu of charges and such. We’ll just have to wait and see.
grahase, Thanks for being here. I appreciate you’re cautions about some of the speculation based on nothing and the demonizing of the defendant’s team. I objected previously and got “shot” at for it, metaphorically speaking.
Now, for some speculation of my own : ) I’ll combine a couple of thoughts.
If the defendant’s head injuries were inflicted prior to the altercation and most likely done at home, then how about Shellie banging him on the head with his gun?
It sure could be, I can easily picture him sitting at the kitchen table with his head held in position, ordering Shelly to give him a good hard whack. It’d be a really stupid thing to do, since he couldn’t be sure that only superficial wounds would result. But, I guess in his drugged up condition, he just got lucky.
The better thing to do is take a razor blade and carefully cut them in. That way you can be sure of what you’re going to get. Completely superficial wounds that even trained medics will easily dismiss and not be forced to go to the ER, where drug use and perhaps a jolt of alcohol might be recorded.
LLMPapa,
You have outdone yourself once again. LOVE IT!
Have I told you LLMPapa how much I love all you do? It really only boils down to one thing….which you have pointed out numerous umerous times. TY for everything I hoped was true!
Uh, LLMPapa, you asked, “Are you following me, George?”
The answer is obviously: ………………… “No,
I’m just going in the same direction.”
So you caught it, eh? LOL I’m bettin he never thought about THIS particular direction of the obvious.
It’s called “a distinction without a difference”. If you follow someone from point A to point B to point C, then they see you again at point E to point F. Even if you are no longer following them, how are they to know? If you haven’t communicated with them, then you must assume that any actions they take, are based upon the knowledge they gained earlier, when you were actually following them.
To assume anything else, you have to believe in telepathy.
Let’s say for example, a policeman from afar, sees a burglar attempting to break into a house. Now, the burglar, who is planning to rob the house, sees through the window that a fire has broken out in the kitchen, and therefore decides to forget about the burglary, and is now attempting to break in, to save the occupants.
How would the policeman be able to determine that the burglar has changed his plans?
If the burglar spots the policeman advancing, he can communicate. But if he doesn’t, and perhaps even if he does, the policeman will form his own opinion. That being that a burglary was in progress.
If GZ had ceased following, why is he not able or willing to identify himself, immediately upon contact?
Lonnie, you caused me to think of a question. Taking the position of using GZ’s statement, what did he possibly do to cause Trayvon to ask “You got a problem?”
why are the blood flow droppings so much thinner at the police station?
Because these blood flows have dried forming scabs. The drying time is approximately 35 minutes. Best ballpark estimate is blood should have taken over an hour to dry completely.
Why are they even THERE at the police station, Jun? I have been trying to ask this question for eight months. The blood trails are there when the bystander snaps a cell phone picture on the scene of the crime one minute after Trayvon’s body hit the ground dead. Then the police come, then the EMTs clean up Fogen’s head, THEN we see the video of Fogen without any blood trails as he gets out of the squad car unaided, gets “searched” without gloves, chats briefly with the officer, and walks unaided into the station house as the various surveillance cameras record him and there is NO BLOOD ON HIS HEAD and there is no visible injury on his head.
Then he washes up; he has interviews; he writes down his story; etc. THEN they take a photograph of the front of his head (and the blood that was there before is gone because the EMTs cleaned him up on the scene) and the back of his head (and the blood that was there before and then got cleaned up and then wasn’t there any more IS BACK and although it’s thinner, the BLOOD TRAILS ARE THE SAME!)… Huh?
Let me rephrase the question: What in the name of John-F.-Kennedy-in-Dallas-in-’63 the Fogen? What do you expect me to believe, HUH? HUH? HUH????
YOU go find me an expert who can prove that it is possible for blood trails to appear, be cleaned up, stay cleaned up for a few hours, and then re-phoughking-appear same way again later! Find me that expert, I say, because he needs a Nobel-phoughking Prize! He has discovered the way to reverse time and reconstruct evidentiary blood trails. There’s a huge demand for that in the modern world!
Love it!!! Thank you so much.
The only explanation is that his head has deep troughs like a tributary.
Good video. I can’t believe I actually jumped a bit when the apple first fell. I knew it was going to happen but it was still a surprise.
Jun Ive thought that Trayvon may have been able to keep the accused from shooting him.Adrenilin an knowing his attacker/stalker was armed.He was in a fight for his life..Ive no doubt the defendant had his eapon drawn when he acossted Trayvon.When he heard someone say they were calling the police,,He relaxed thinking wittneses were aware of his plight an the calvary were on the way.He ceased his franttic struggle with this agressor assumeing he would run to escape arrest .When he relaxes gz gets the gun up an Trayvon lets out a terrified NOOOOOO as he realises to late that he is about to die,,,An if he did manage a final sentance before his lungs colllapsed..It was…YOU SHOT ME?!…………
I dont find the story believable
I feel Trayvon struggled and screamed until he was murdered
I believe he was yelling so that police would know where he was, hence the defendant silencing him
I do not believe Trayvon would be able to say anything, due to his present condition at the time
John said he was calling the police,Trayvon knew the police were coming and screamed out for help! For help from the corrupt friends of Fogen, whose salaries are paid by taxpayers (like Brandi Green), and who tried to hide their friend’s crime of murder.
Jun, you are right. Trayvon hoped the police would find him, and Fogen knew he was out of time. That evil man. His corrupt “public servant” friends, betraying the public.
That is what I am thinking. I dont feel anyone in danger would stop trying to get help. Besides, the audio recording kind of concludes that.
Malisha thing is the defendant never thought his version of events would come under scrutiny let alone a jury an trial..Thats why he arrogantly assumed he could say an do anything,.I wonder what he would have said to Corey if he had the opertunity to talk things through with her.
EXACTLY!
He just “told them anything” because he had already been assured that he was not going to be charged.
Yeppers!
Agreed! He didn’t believe he would be charged. Still, he did make an effort to deliver an exculpatory narrative, even if the effort was shoddy.
But, think about what this says for a moment! In less than half an hour, from the time he left home, until the police arrive, he has been talking to the police and building a story. So, where is the place and time for him to become informed that he would not be charged?
If we’re assuming that this was a completely unplanned, opportunistic event. Then why would he need to be assured that he would be charged? Obviously, you don’t need any such assurances, if you have no plans to commit any crime!
Am I making any sense yet? If so, then you’re beginning to see the faint trail of evidence, that’s leading me to believe that there was quite some advanced planning. Or, were the police just giving him blanket authority to go out and commit any crime he should choose to?
If that were the case, then he needed no cover story at all, he could have just grabbed Trayvon and held him for the police. His crime would have certainly been a whole lot less than a homicide, and would have attracted far less attention as well. Thus, only something more serious requires these assurances, be obtained in advance. What say you all?
Lonnie S, here’s how I envision it. Fogen is pacing back and forth after killing Trayvon. A few witnesses he does NOT know are out there and several he DOES know are out there. Tim Smith arrives and a look passes between them. Maybe a “wink and nod.” Fogen says, “he was killing me; I had to shoot.” Tim Smith gives a barely perceptible nod which, in the dark, cannot even been seen and remarked on by the witnesses who are not personally familiar with him. To Fogen, however, it is crystal clear. Ayala shows up. Smith makes a gesture to him that nobody even picks up on. Ayala does the cop thing with the gun and with Fogen and as he does, he does the talk that the TV cops do and he starts the “just the facts ma’am” type processing like on TV and the witnesses only notice that. The elephant is already in the room. Raimondo is there, someone else is there, there are chest compressions, Fogen is in the car, there is a cell phone photograph, blah blah blah. EMTs show up and use two cotton balls and a half ounce of peroxide to clean up Fogen’s face and head. Tim Smith says to the EMT, “Wow, half his face is covered in blood.” EMT nods. Somebody says, “He took a helluva beating off that thug; lucky he lived.” EMT nods. Fogen says, “I was yelling help me help me but nobody came.” EMT nods. OK, he’s cleaned up. Then off they go, the squad car, driven by Tim Smith, Fogen in the back seat.
Smith starts the engine. Fogen says, “They said I needed stitches and my nose is broken.” Smith says, “yeah, man, you got a terrible beat-down; one witness says it was MMA style.”
Fogen says, “Damn, that a55hole was just about to get away.” Smith says, “Don’t worry; I’ll make sure they understand what happened out there.”
After a murder is a fine time to start hoping for police support. I’m just guessing, but I’d kind of think you’d want to know that before you even started breaking the law. If you think the police are going to fully investigate you and might not give you a pass, you’re not going to put yourself in a position such as this.
Obviously with access to the Chief, who he helped into office, he has nearly all the support he thinks he needs. A few more cops on board and he’s got the confidence to go ahead and get on with it.
@ Lonnie
” that’s leading me to believe that there was quite some advanced planning.”
Sorry, but the advanced planning thing is just too far fetched for me. I do however, believe GZ was lying through his teeth about not knowing about SYG (among all his other lies) and he thought that he could just say he was defending himself and walk.
I don’t believe he intended to kill anyone that night. I believe he was just trying to do like he always did previously and chase them down and hold them for the police, but this time he had a gun and he got carried away.
The level of advance planning (otherwise known as conspiracy) that I believe in firmly is this: I believe Fogen set out that night with support from Taaffe, Osterman AND Tim Smith (at least) to BRING IN a “suspect.” I don’t believe he set out to KILL a suspect; it never occurred to him that the “suspect” would not “concede his authority” and submit to his superior “American decency.” He also didn’t imagine that he was going to find a “suspect” who had no criminal record, so long as he stuck to a Black “suspect.” So I think he planned to report Trayvon as suspicious, establish his own bona fides, and then restrain him so that when Tim Smith showed up, BINGO, they have the hero having (a) saved the neighborhood and (b) shown that he really did need to carry a loaded gun.
I think the whole thing changed because, as usual, Fogen just couldn’t control the universe. So he had to kill Trayvon Martin and make up a story to justify that ending.
“If you think the police are going to fully investigate you and might not give you a pass, you’re not going to put yourself in a position such as this.”
Lonnie, there are plenty of a55holes with guns out there who shoot other people even though they don’t have police buddies who have assured them ahead of time that they won’t be charged. And we already know, from prior incidents, that GZ has impulse control problems. There is no reason to assume that he was told in advance that he wouldn’t be charged, no matter what he did. Possibly he was told that later, but not until it was evident that he was claiming self-defense.
“His crime would have certainly been a whole lot less than a homicide, and would have attracted far less attention as well.”
I agree. Because of that, I actually doubt the claims by some (I think you are among them) that GZ killed Trayvon to cover up for crimes associated with having grabbed and held him against his will. If he had either let him go, or continued to hold him at gunpoint until the police arrived, the charges would have been a lot less. There also would have been a much better chance that the crime would have been minimized and he possibly would not have been charged at all, since Trayvon had not been physically injured at that point.
Also, because of GZ’s “good guy – bad guy” mindset, I am not sure that he thought of holding him as a crime. I think that it may have been more a matter either of the adrenaline kicking in, plus GZ’s ongoing impulse control and judgment issues. Plus perhaps wanting to teach him a lesson for being so uncooperative.
I don’t think that there’s anyone who doesn’t realize that murder, homicide and killing are extremely serious crimes. This is why I don’t see it in GZ’s mindset to need some vigorous assurance that he can get away with a homicide. I know what you are saying, sure there are a lot of people who do some incredibly stupid things, like the cop in Sanford who pulled his gun in the gas station, or that guy who shot up that car for loud music, or the pizza or the pork chop.
But this crime kept wavering back and fourth between evidence that could make it appear premeditated, and back to spontaneous. But now that I’ve had time to proportion the artifacts, this case is squarely in the premeditated category. IMO, GZ planned and executed a premeditated murder that night. It doesn’t matter to me how many people believe it or not, I don’t have the ‘HARD’ evidence of it, the the ‘soft’ evidence is very strong in that direction.
The mindset, the knowledge, the proclivities, the “support” group, all point to premeditated murder, planned and executed. I also think that between now and the trial, the hard evidence will be discovered, if it hasn’t already been. But this murder was several days in the planning. The SP doesn’t need to prove 1st degree to bring GZ to justice, so they are wise to take this “short cut” if they can’t dot all the ‘i’s or cross all the ‘t’s needed to prove a higher charge. But, I think they will discover the additional evidence anyway. Have a happy Holiday All.
Lonnie and Malisha – He left the truck and was armed. He was not afraid of other so-called Thugs lurking because he knew Trayvon was alone. I believe he was patrolling prior to Trayvon’s return to the complex. Otherwise, he would have concerns about someone coming to Trayvon’s aid. He had no such concern.
In my opinion, based on evidence in discovery, FrigginFogen murdered Trayvon Martin and it should have been charged with Murder 1. But, murder 2 is easier to work with.
He had help.
Most believe he carried his gun with him at all times (except for work) because he said so. Now, what witnesses said he carried at all times. Osterman for one and Osterman would say that, wouldn’t he. Who else said he always carried a weapon.
Anyway, they have left the impression that this is truth. You see, it could be that he did not always carry. He took it out that night for a specific reason. He was going to do harm. He is a busybody. He is a stalker. I believe he was alerted.
I don’t know how many of you here, have been privy to practical jokes/surprise party planning. But, from my experience, some of the most elaborate plans could cover days. Especially surprise parties, where we had to be sure that the subject would be available and led to the right place at the right time, but also kept away from the plans and/or materials, until the party was to begin.
IIRC, some of these plans became quite elaborate and required days of monitoring and discussing the subjects behavior, so that the plans could be moved out of the way of, immovable items, that we knew the subject just would not be moved to change. And/or, to cause the subject to change plans that they had made, but which we knew they could easily be made to change.
Some people are so fixed into their routines, it becomes quite easy to plan and execute a surprise party, while others, have such complex lives, it’s difficult indeed, to “entrap” them into the necessary position at the correct time.
Try to think of this in terms of GZ planning a “surprise party” for TM, who had arrived at RATL just 6 days before. Then, think about what you’d need to know, what you’d need to do to get TM into the right place and time needed to execute the plan.
Once you grasp that a plan, as opposed to simply awaiting an opportunity, is necessary, you have to “climb the planning tree”, so to speak. Meaning that you have to begin to enumerate, all the possible necessities of such a plan, and only then throw out some of these collected possibilities.
Some here have already realized that any plan to trap Trayvon would have had to span several days. I believe that it would also have to take in to account, possible ways of contacting Trayvon, to alter or control his behavior. Like, for example, getting to know who his friends in the neighborhood were, so has to have them lure him out of the house. Otherwise, at no time prior to him leaving his house, there would be no way to account for what his mission, and therefore his actions, might be.
For a person without any foreknowledge, for example, TM leaving home could have been a mission to go visiting, instead of, or in addition to, going to the store. The timing of his return would be so random, it would hardly be of any use to any plan. So, his mission for leaving home, would have to be taken control of. That could be done, by knowing who his friends are and getting them to set up a meeting for some reason, somewhere. The sudden trip to 711, fits the bill nicely for me.
Before we were given the 711 tapes and all, I’d envisioned he would have gone out that night, to the store, for more than just iced tea for himself and skittles for Chad. We didn’t know then, that he had 40 dollars plus on him, but, it certainly seemed that if one leaves for the store, on a rainy night, in search of snacks, with a game on tv in the offing. One would most likely have planned on getting some chips etc., more than just one candy bar. These purchases are hardly the kind of thing one finds a trip in the dark and the rain compelling goals for the given situation. You’d think that there would be at least one “necessity” item in the mix. Yet, at the store, after that entire trip, all TM wants is an iced tea for himself? Then, it’s pretty obvious that the iced tea is an “after thought” as in “while I’m here…”
The idea of a blunt, which is a relatively hard to get item, would be more likely the purpose of the trip. In the mind of a teen, that would be compelling enough reason to make the trip, since it’s not something that can easily be obtained all the time. Things have to “fall right” to get a blunt. So, we see that it did that night.
By “chance”? Or by design?
Just some points to ponder, speculative, to be sure, but reasonable? Yeah! I remember as a teen, me and friends had contrived to get a beer or two, neither lateness, gloom of night or rain defrayed those plans. Simply because it was so hard to get otherwise, nor did anyone want to appear “wimpish” in the eyes of the group, so anyone we called would sneak out to join us.
So, that all he purchased was an iced tea for himself, and just skittles for Chad, stuck me as a rather strange prize for the trip, even if he did spend that time with DD on the phone. His mind wasn’t on snacks at all, it seems to me he was focused on getting that blunt. If that is so, then it makes perfect sense that he’d head for the mail shed to smoke it before going home. Which, in turn, would explain why the shortest route home was not taken.
At least, it provides a much better reason for him not heading home by the most direct route, a whole lot better than that he simply didn’t know the shortest route.
I find your argument compelling. The only rub in your story is that there is no record that Martin had a blunt on him, nor that he had been smoking (nicotine in his system).
Sent from my iPod
Yes, that is a point, but there can be many explanations for it.
Notice he didn’t offer those guy any money before they made their purchases? If they had called him to come get one, he’d likely have come, teens are up for things like that. If they met him at the store, he would not need to ask them or offer them money in advance. Meanwhile, when they got out side, they could simply tell TM “hey, the clerk wouldn’t sell us enough because he knew you were waiting out side. So, either that or a thousand other excuses they could think up, would leave TM without a blunt, even if he’d left home to have his “friends” get him one.
TM spends 8 to 10 minutes in the mail shed talking to DD. It’s possible he smoked it there, although I think it unlikely, I think he’d have told DD, after all, she’s not going to tell his parents.
Also, the lure could have been a video game, an music cd or who knows what else, that became a promise unfilled.
What we do know is that it was a very brief meeting of some kind, because TM waited a few minutes outside the store for them to exit and speak to him, before he started back home. What it was actually all about we can only imagine. The possibilities are endless, I’ll agree. But one of those possibilities, until it can be eliminated is, they were the cause of TM leaving the house at that time of day.
I want to throw this out here.
In my opinion, there is more of a connection to Fogen, Taaffe, Osterman, and Oliver than we know. Oliver worked with Fogen, as did Osterman’s wife. That is known.
There have been hints that Oliver is or was a sponsor of Fogens in AA. We all know Taaffe is a major drinker. Perhaps the connection. Perhaps, Fogen began to fail when he hooked up with Taaffe. I think the four of them are connected to Alcoholics Anonymous. Hooking up through that organization could have very interesting conversations what with Taaffe being a loudmouth bitter bigot, Osterman being a loudmouth racist gun nut, and Fogen being a wannabee something, anything to fit in somewhere. Fogen wants to be the save-the-world tough guy. Osterman has connections and so does Fogen.
Oliver hasn’t seen Fogen since his hookup with the other two and still believed Fogen was on the road to recovery. Probably hasn’t seen him in a few years – since Fogen moved from Lake Mary to Sanford.
I dated a cop in my younger days and have first-hand knowledge that there are alcohol problems within the ranks of a police force. Who knows – could be there is also a connection within the force through AA.
All is not what it seems.
That’s valuable work there grahase. I was thinking that MO was GZ’s avenue into the SPD initially. That and his fathers connections. AA provides another avenue of connections. My guess is that somewhere along the line GZ managed to hook up with some of Burgess’s friends who probably also knew TM as acquaintances, being they were of similar age.
I’m working with a theory that those guys who met TM at 711, may have called him and offered/asked if he wanted a blunt. He’d certainly come out to the store for that, if so, no matter the late hour and/or the rain. Offering to get Chad something would serve as a “cover story” if one were needed later on.
A nice fit, he goes out to get a blunt, GZ then knows that TM will be coming back from the store soon. TM, meanwhile, heads for the mail shed to smoke his blunt before going home and GZ catches him there.
If those guys at the 711 had a car, it’s indeed odd they didn’t offer TM a lift, of course, they could simply say they’re headed the other way. GZ certainly has enough “juice” to get them to do him small favors. So, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find there was some connection.
grahase – Why are you suggesting AA as a connection rather than them maybe meeting in a bar and being drinking buddies for a while?
Even if it can be shown that, contrary to what was claimed, GZ did not always carry his gun with him, is that enough to really show first degree murder? Maybe there is something relevant in the law that I don’t know about, but it seems to me that the prosecution would still have to deal with distinctions between scenarios: “Maybe I’ll need a gun to intimidate him” or “Maybe I’ll need a gun to defend myself”, versus straight out intending from the beginning to kill.
@ Grahase: “grahase – Why are you suggesting AA as a connection rather than them maybe meeting in a bar and being drinking buddies for a while?”
———————————————————-
They all go to AA, that’s documented, what they might do in bars is not. So the simplest claim tends to prove the issue, so that is what get used. Unless and until we learn that these people have bar habits, as opposed to drinking at home, AA meetings is the best clue so far.
=====================================
“Even if it can be shown that, contrary to what was claimed, GZ did not always carry his gun with him, is that enough to really show first degree murder? ”
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The fact is, it was not only claimed by Osterman, it was also claimed by GZ himself. It’s not being used to prove first degree murder, it’s being used to show that GZ did not forget that he had a gun with him as he tries to claim.
====================================
“Maybe there is something relevant in the law that I don’t know about, but it seems to me that the prosecution would still have to deal with distinctions between scenarios: “Maybe I’ll need a gun to intimidate him” or “Maybe I’ll need a gun to defend myself”, versus straight out intending from the beginning to kill.”
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Nope, not here… The fact and point of the matter is, GZ should not have had a gun with him at all, because he wasn’t required to follow suspicious people, in fact he was required to stay away from them. Thus, he does not need a gun, loaded with hollow point bullets, to simply stay away from Trayvon. All he needs to do is to stay in his truck.
“Maybe I’ll need a gun to defend myself”, is totally incriminating because, the only way that can happen, is if GZ intends to illegally cause TM great concern for his life. That is illegal, which is why the NeN operator told him not to follow.
grahase, I have never heard about this. But I would be interested about the source.
Besides I am hesitant to connect the most visible people around Fogen, simply because they were the most visible and hearable/audible voices around.
Again: Fogen’s voice message to Taaffe does not sound as if they were close to me. Besides, obsessed with chasing burglar suspects and leafing your door unlocked and windows open?
Fact is, if someone indeed observed and informed Zimmerman about Trayvon, will s/he ever stick out “her” head now after the deadly shot, and tell us so? It feels all the NW captains that have left traces in the document collection we have by now are female. But your collection is completely male. What exactly is Shellie’s contribution to the nightmare for Trayvon? Another female.
Did he always carry and the question if GZ and SZ had one or two guns, admittedly I never looked into this. How expensive was the gun by the way? Does it make sense once you both get a permit to assume that always the correct one of you both carries?
But wouldn’t police have collected her weapon too, if she had one? And wouldn’t they have asked her based on her concealed carrying license if there were two?
I understand the argument was that he got one from Osterman, and not from Shellie. This argument does not make sense to me, since he would never ever want to leave Shellie defenseless, he not only bought or at least intended to buy a bulletproof vest for her but also for O’Mara.
I hope the Prof. who allows us to chat here on his expenses, I guess, is well and I wish him and his people relaxing holidays.
For us over here tomorrow and the day after will be holidays all over Germany. I will spend most of it with a really bad cold in bed it seems. For Trayvon it wouldn’t have been one, much less two holidays if I get matters right. RIP, Trayvon, what else could I say. Hard time for the family, I guess. First X-mas without Trayvon.
Lonnie,
You seem to be going in for more and more complicated conspiracy theories.
How would they know that Trayvon was going to be at RATL on the evening in question?
Why would GZ and friends be inclined to pal up to “thuggish” teens already known to be connected to burglaries in the neighborhood, for the purpose of trapping a different teen who they knew nothing about except for his race? And why would those teens be inclined to do him a special favor?
And what happened to the blunt, since there was no evidence of it either in Trayvon’s bloodstream or on his person?
gblock wrote: “Lonnie,
You seem to be going in for more and more complicated conspiracy theories.
How would they know that Trayvon was going to be at RATL on the evening in question?
Why would GZ and friends be inclined to pal up to “thuggish” teens already known to be connected to burglaries in the neighborhood, for the purpose of trapping a different teen who they knew nothing about except for his race? And why would those teens be inclined to do him a special favor?
And what happened to the blunt, since there was no evidence of it either in Trayvon’s bloodstream or on his person?”
========================================
Let’s take these one at a time:
How would they know that Trayvon was going to be at RATL on the evening in question?
He showed up there and stayed for several days, they could simply assume that he’d be there for a few more! If he doesn’t stay, the plan simply collapses. After all, not all surprise parties come off, despite the best planning. Assumptions have to be made! For example, they assume, when planning a surprise party, that the party boy won’t have someone he loves meet some disaster that will prevent him from attending. They assume, over the intervening time, no accident or catastrophe or other incident will call him away.
So, the planning quite naturally continues to completion, despite a zillion and one unknowable things that could cause such plans to go awry.
Thus, the simple answer is: They simply assumed his availability!
That’s not impossible to do, it is not either difficult or impractical since it is something we always do all the time.
===================================
Why would GZ and friends be inclined to pal up to “thuggish” teens already known to be connected to burglaries in the neighborhood, for the purpose of trapping a different teen who they knew nothing about except for his race? And why would those teens be inclined to do him a special favor?
———————————-
We don’t know who, exactly, TM “palled up with” if he did. I could have been one of a “friend of a friend” or an acquaintance made at RATL. In any event, how would TM know that these were thuggish teens? Does he read the newspapers, or check the police blotter and such? Of course not, he only knows them as people he’s seen around, and even may have played football with.
To lure someone somewhere, you only need to be known as a passing acquaintance by them, depending on what lure is to be used. Certainly for the purposes of buy a black and mild, which Trayvon might want, but could not buy himself, an offer to buy one for him, should be a chance to lure him out. We don’t take every offer, by acquaintances, to be of sinister import. These are kids talking to kids, in a conspiracy, about things they don’t want their parents to know.
Thus this remains a reasonable possibility. Among many other reasonable possibilities, this one, at least has some event connected to it, that might be an indication it’s true. Thus it is reasonably something to think about, until we learn more.
=================================
And what happened to the blunt, since there was no evidence of it either in Trayvon’s bloodstream or on his person?”
—————————
A “blunt” is used to also mean a “Black and Mild”, which is a cigar, not a MJ smoke. Teens, as we are told, seek these cigars, when they can’t get MJ. So, again, it is reasonable to think that TM wanted to get a B&M which he could not buy for himself, he needed an older person to get one for him.
Of course, no one checked the mail shed to see if there were any ashes or the butt of such a cigar left there. We do know that he sheltered there for some 8 minutes or more, which is more than enough time to smoke a B&M, or to discard early, because of the interruption. tchoupi’s analysis shows that it was actually raining harder when TM left the mail shed, than it was when he first got there.
So, he doesn’t head home by the most direct route, he shelters from the rain when he could have kept moving. Says he may have intended to stop there, as a good place to smoke the B&M before going home. Obviously he wouldn’t take it to his house. But, against that view, he has not told DD that he is stopping to smoke, I’d think he’d tell her, since there’s no danger she’s going to tell on him. So, unless she has said that she doesn’t approve of it, he’s probably going to tell her. That he didn’t tell her, either means that she doesn’t approve of him smoking, or that he didn’t smoke one at all. Until we know more, those are the reasonable alternatives to keep in mind.
And finally, blood testing will not reveal that a person has smoked a cigar, which is what they also call a blunt.
==============================
Like I said before, the only thing that allows you to call my speculation “more complex conspiracy theories”, is the fact that you are ignoring the evidence that leads to speculating that way.
Each of my speculations is an attempt to reasonably account for evidence that exists, so I keep to a narrow field, with theories that tend to link the evidence we have, with reasonable explanations for it.
Sweep those evidentiary points aside and anything at all becomes possible, and my theories appear to be “far more complex than necessary”. They aren’t really all that complex at all!
Since blood requires 6.5 minutes to congeal, I simply look at the timeline, to find a place where that time is available. But, because the blood trails and the rivulets do not appear to be exposed to rain, and have not been rubbed in grass prior to congealing, nor bashed on concrete when they started. Added to the fact that completely dried blood requires nearly an hour or more, if it is not kept in a warm dry place, then I simply look for a place where the time and conditions for this to happen exists.
Simple, to keep the head still for 6.5 minutes, and allow for the blood to dry faster than an hour, a warm dry place is needed. A place and time where there are not the distractions that happen swiftly after GZ leaves home. So, the conclusion has to be, the wounds and blood trails were fashioned before GZ left home. Nothing else fits the bill. Nowhere out side his home, does he have the time to both open the wounds, hold still and keep the blood warm and dry.
Either come up with another way for this evidence to arrive in it’s final state, with a theory of your own, but stop trying to remove the evidence points that lead me to fashion my theory. Or, show that some assumption I’m making is incorrect for cause. Otherwise, simply note it and move on. Something will either confirm or refute the points I’m either making or relying on, and so my theory will be changed to take that into account, or discarded entirely.
Until then it’s something to think about.
leander22, too bad about your cold. Take care of yourself. In answer to your questions:
In most states, a permit to possess a gun is less restrictive than a concealed carry permit. If he lost the concealed carry permit, he would probably still be allowed to keep the gun at home.
I’m pretty sure that even if he was no longer allowed to possess guns, they wouldn’t be confiscated by the police, although he could be in trouble if the police later found them at his home or on his person. He and Shellie would have been allowed to transfer possession through sale or by giving it away, or could let someone else hold on to their guns for safekeeping. Prior to the shooting, GZ probably had not been in serious enough trouble with the law to cause him to lose the right to have guns in his possession.
Of course, it is possible that, with his connections, the police simply looked the other way, but I think that he was still legally allowed to have the gun at his home.
Lonnie,
“Like I said before, the only thing that allows you to call my speculation “more complex conspiracy theories”, is the fact that you are ignoring the evidence that leads to speculating that way.”
No, I am calling your speculation “more complex conspiracy theories” because it assumes the participation of additional people with no known connection to GZ. You misread my most important question and therefore did not provide a reasonable answer to it. So please pay attention. To repeat my question:
“Why would GZ and friends be inclined to pal up to “thuggish” teens already known to be connected to burglaries in the neighborhood, for the purpose of trapping a different teen who they knew nothing about except for his race? And why would those teens be inclined to do him a special favor?”
GZ didn’t know anything about Trayvon. But he apparently did know that Burgess’ friends (if that’s who they were) were connected to burglaries. So why would he have chosen to use the thuggish teens to go after the unknown teen? Even more important, why would they be willing to drop everything in order to do GZ a favor?
In your previous reply, you talked about what Trayvon did or didn’t know or may have chosen to do. But THAT’S NOT WHAT i ASKED ABOUT! What is making this a complicated conspiracy theory is your bringing in these additional teens to the conspiracy, and not just as people who happened to be there. And you still haven’t explained the crucial element that I find hard to believe: that they were willing to go out of there way to help trap Trayvon AT GZ’S REQUEST.
As for the blood trails, the pictures at the station weren’t taken until several hours later – plenty of time for the blood to dry. And I’m not convinced that our information about the exact state of the blood at any particular time on scene, and what it “should” have looked like after x number of minutes, is reliable enough to base any solid conclusions on it. Most people on this blog (including me) don’t believe the head-bashing claim. So, there is no reason that the blood on the back of his head would have collected grass or debris from the ground, because his head wasn’t against the ground.
You’re munging too much together. You’re asking things I’ve already explained. Then you add: “Why would those kids at the 711 be willing to help GZ trap a kid…” Where did you get the idea that they had to be helping GZ to trap a kid???
All I said is that they could be the reason that TM left to go to the store! Obviously that doesn’t mean they also have to know GZ and/or what he was planning to do. Even if GZ had planned it all, why in the world would he tell them anything more than what they needed to know? And even that would probably have been a lie.
Go back and read what I’ve already wrote and don’t put any more into it than just what I’ve said. All of the things you’re asking me to explain are things that are not required for that to be true.
I feel defendant still premeditated his story but because the defendant is a person who acts without thinking or thinking proper, he just acts, and in this method, he just lets his lips go, hence the lying but not very good lying or planned at that
Yet, he weaves his narrative in a fashion that would tend to show that he observed NW rules as best he could under the circumstances. That’s evidence that he knew what the rules were and had formulated ways to get around them. “The store, going in the same direction, he attacked me, I forgot I was armed with a weapon loaded with extraordinarily deadly ammunition.”
Yes, his excuses for failing to observe the NW rules are truly pitiful.
To clarify, I think it is likely that his excuses for failing to observe NW rules were planned in advance. In fact, he may have been ready to use them before “patrols” on earlier dates as well.
I simply don’t understand why anyone cares who Tracy Martin thinks was screaming, who Sybrina Fulton thinks was screaming, who Robert Zimmerman Sr. thinks was screaming, who Gladys Zimmerman “thinks” [as opposed to thinks] was screaming, or who Erwin, Serino, Witness #1492, or unknown neighbor with eyes on the side of his nose thinks was screaming.
Biometric voice analysis of the screams say whoever was screaming, it was not Fogen:
As if a person could prove anything in a court of law based on the fact or absence of his having screamed! Idiotic premise.
If I wanted to kill somebody, I’d take a baseball bat, run down the street after him, scream bloody murder and beat him to death. THEN if I wanted to get off, I’d say, “I was screaming for help but nobody stepped up to the plate.”
Is this going to be admissible do you know for sure? I mean I know they will have experts who can say it not GZ based on that, but if GZ’s voice stress analysis (what some people keep referring to as a “lie detector test”) is not admissible, will this be?
The voice-stress test is completely different from a voice analysis. They use voice analysis all the time in court to identify who called a certain person, who called 911, who made threats over the phone, etc. It analyzes components of voices. It’s like an EKG but of the VOICE. It’s admissible. It’s voice identification expert stuff.
That’s completely different from tests that purport to test stress, truth, veracity, etc. in individuals. Just think, if they were scientifically tested to tell truth from falsehood, we wouldn’t need witnesses, judges, or anything else. Just test people and if they’re lying, lock them up. All those tests, the voice-stress analysis and the polygraph (more accurate and more useful but still not good enough to be accepted in court) and so forth are very subjective, very variable, of limited use, and inadmissible.
I can say that I hear James Brown singing. I can be right, I can be wrong. I can be lying. The real way to find out if any of these statements is of evidentiary value depends on a lot of data, not just what Robert Z Sr. says, what Tracy Martin says, what Erwin says, what Erwin’s computer says.
Biometric voice analysis of the screams on the tape have, so far, said that they did not come from Fogen. The rest of it remains to be heard.
The best way to explain voice analysis this: Like a fingerprint, voices have characteristics that are caused by the shape of the throat, the size and condition of the larynx etc., which, like the “rifling” inside the barrel of a gun, which leave marks on the bullet, these shapes and conditions leave impressions and “shape” the voice.
They used to use “voice prints” to analyze voices, but they’ve advanced from that. But your voice print for the same word will be different from another persons, because of the differences in shape, size and condition of your throat etc.
They exclude GZ’s voice as the one producing the screams, because his voice is not capable of producing sound with the same characteristics. Which, as you might expect, would make sense, because an older, more mature male throat etc., is going to have undergone big changes from those of a teen.
So, what the experts have said is that, the voice heard screaming on the tape, lacks sufficient markers to be seen as more than 50% similar to the voice screaming. Their expertise, having performed this test many times, they expect a 90% + degree of similarity, to confirm it as being the same voice.
They cannot match the voice to that of Trayvon, because they don’t have a reliable sample to make such a comparison with. If they had a fingerprint for example, they could say that it didn’t match GZ. But if they had no fingerprint sample from Trayvon, they could not say that it matches him, even though there were only those two people as possibles. So, that’s as far as they can go.
Of course, all we, and the jurors, will need to know, is that the voice screaming does not belong to the man with the gun! The jury is, after all, the “finders of fact”. The screams are there, the reasons for them are apparent. So, who do you think they will choose as the most likely source?
the voice stress test is not admissible because there is no machine possible that can tell when someone is lying and that is what it is alleged to do
Voice stress would only admissible if it simply measured what the title alleges, which is measuring stress in the voice
The only logical conclusion is the defendant was not stressed out at what happened
However, they can not admit it to tell lies or not
The voice analysis is different in that it analyzes voice not truth
Ditto
@Jun
IIRC, as discussed, the permission to view Apple Iphone from witness was taken from FDLE.
No other photos were found on his phone and the phone was given back.
Page 73 of 284
Click to access Zimmerman-documents.pdf
Blushedbrown, I cannot be sure of course, but I always thought this concerns witness 13, who during his interview with FDLE on 03/20 “suddenly” remembers the photos he took that night.
It could of course also have been officer Wagner’s. But strictly if I remember correctly, Wagner took two photos, but witness 13 three, one of Fogen, one of Trayvon Martin and one of the flashlight.
I forgot to put the number 13 after witness. You are correct.
WHY snap the flashlight?
My mistake, not yours, blushedbrown. For whatever reason I followed your link feeling I missed something about Wagner’s camera, and when I returned forgot to check what you really wrote. …
Will you forgive me. 😉
Bien sûr ma chérie
I think these repeated foolish motions are designed for a different purpose, actually two purposes: (1) create the false impression, in the public eye, and maybe as well in the appellate courts, that the defense was somehow handicapped by bad behavior on the part of the prosecution, and all because of political pressure; and (2) find out how much the prosecution really has. I’ll deal with the second one first.
In about 1995, maybe thereabouts, a friend of mine who was a social scientist who worked for the Division of Army Psychiatry told me about a case of a colonel at Fort Benning, Georgia, who had molested four children, and who was targeted by the Army Criminal Investigations Division, but his own Commanding Officer prevented him from being even investigated, much less prosecuted. We got data together, some of it gathered with a measure of difficulty, and we confirmed the stories, and went to the Brass in the Army, and they gave us the brush-off, and then one evening at 6:00 p.m., ALL THREE TV STATIONS IN COLUMBIA, GEORGIA, broadcast redacted copies of the CID report and nailed the guy. The next morning the Pentagon called and begged me to come in and speak with them about the case. AND BRING ALL MY DOCUMENTS.
They then held nine more meetings with me and gave me free phone privileges to speak with them and never once did they fail to return my calls within 15 minutes. They were, in the meantime, asking me for more information. Bring this, find out that, get this, do that, they had me running around bringing them information for six months, and always so polite you could go into sugar shock if you were diabetic. And then a big kiss off and they left the guy alone.
So when I looked back on that case (which we called “Baby-Hook” named after “Tail-Hook,”), I realized I knew what they were doing for those six months while they were making us run around getting them more and more evidence: they were seeing how much we had, how much we could get, how much was available, how much other people were willing to talk about what had happened, how big the concentric circles were from the stone we had thrown into the water. Once they realized that we really couldn’t get a national outrage going, and that all the evidence we COULD get could be managed, they screwed us over and gave the Colonel back his raping privileges.
That’s where Fogen’s defense team is now. “Let’s see what they have, what they can get, how much they can stir up, whether the outrage has died down yet, how much energy they have, how much money they’re willing to spend, and when it will be safe for Fogen to run or for us to cut a corrupt deal and whisk him away.”
That’s the name of the game now.
Brilliant.
Oh yeah, btw,
Jun is a name for males in Chinese/Philipino/Korean culture
I am a dude just to let u know
Someone upthread suggested that perhaps Fogen told Trayvon that the police were coming, to intimidate him. But I think that is impossible. Had Fogen told Trayvon that the police were coming, that would have done just the opposite; Trayvon would have been relieved that the police were coming; he would not have thought that he was being accosted by a criminal madman intent on kidnapping, harming or killing him. In fact, had Fogen said, “Stand still; I have called the police and they’re on their way here,” I think Trayvon would have been quiet and watchful, expecting that at any moment, the police would show up and he could give them his father’s cell phone number and his father would vouch for him and he could go home. Anyone in danger hopes the police are nearby.
I think even if Trayvon was alerted that police were coming, he would continue screaming for help, so that they know where he is and can help him from the creepy weirdo Zimmernuts Fogenhats
I think the screams for help was b/c there was already a gun in play, as in the defendant’s hand.
Dear Professor Leatherman,
I just want to say that I’m so grateful for this blog. You’ve attracted some really cool people here to discuss the Trayvon Martin case. I come here to read daily, to catch up on the latest and sometimes return to see if someone has responded to my comment.
I know that web design and HTML are not your forte being you’re an attorney and professor of Law. When I first started my blog in 2010 to discuss the Anthony case, I was totally lost. I had no idea how to set it up.
So if I may, I have a suggestion for you. I noticed that you nestle the comments with the “reply” option. I think your blog would work better if you disabled that action and allowed all the comments to post in consecutively, one after another.
On the backside of the blog, under “Appearance” there’s a tool called “Widgets”. If you go to “Widget” there’s a feature called “Recent Comments”.
You can add “Recent Comments” to your Side Bar, just like you added “Recent Posts”. By adding this feature, your readers can easily go to the last comment.
That way if a person wanted to comment on one of your past articles or topics, their comment won’t get lost there and the readers will be able to find it and respond.
This is just a humble suggestion. If you need me to help you find it, I’ll be happy to assist. 😀
Thanks again for all that you do. You’re the best.
TheJBMission~
PS: I can also help you set up a limit on the amount of comments on one page. That way, if you’re away or not planning on writing another article for a few days, you can limit 200 comments per page that way the comments won’t take so long to post.
Anything you need Professor, I’ll be happy to help. I hope all is well with you and yours.
When I first began sharing here, it became confusing knowing what “reply” to click in order to comment to any certain person. That was resolved when I click “Notify me of follow-up comments via email.” When comments are received via email, they have a “reply” button at the bottom. No matter where the comment is that you reply to, by using that feature, it puts the reply to the comment.
The only time I need to actually go through comments is when there is a new post with comments already posted, and also for some links to Youtube vids.
Most blogs give an option for how many comments you want nestled. What I don’t like are those themes with nestled comments where the box gets very narrow and continues moving to the right as the thread continues.
I think Zimmurder needs to explain,if he was attacked like he claims. How was he able to get his gun? I think zimmermurder needs to explain,if he was attacked like he claims. How would Trayvon have even seen the gun? From a mounted position it would have been impossible for him to simply grab his gun and kill trayvon,unless he knocked trayvon off first and then killed him. which is highly unlikely. Trayvon would never have seen the gun because he would have been sitting right where the gun was. I think Zimmurder needs to explain if Trayvon was smothering him slamming his head in the ground and beating in the face 12-times or 30-40 times,depending on which of his tales you want to believe. how would he have been able to scream so clearly and precisely if at all? How does he explain the lack of his blood or dna on trayvon’s hands or under his finger nails?How does he explain the lack of bruising or swelling on Trayvon’s fingers and knuckles. he he claims he shot Trayvon while Trayvon was on top beating him.How does he explain the direct path front to back the bullet took through Trayvons body? A shot that would only be possible if his arm was fully extended toward trayvon’s chest when he fired the gun. which means he was face to face when he killed trayvon. I hope these are some of the things the prosecution points out during his trial. He wants to blame trayvon for his own murder. He alone is responsible for Trayvon’s brutal death. The fact he terrorized Trayvon before he killed him makes it worse.He was the aggressor and he knows it that’s why all the lies. For the first time in his life he’s going to have to take responsibility for what he has done. All this could have been prevented if he had simply left Trayvon alone.
I just wonder how Trayvon did all that beating, slamming, smuthering,asure GZ of iminent death, cursing, totaly ignore a nearby witness (who could’ve physically restrained TM) hand-down-chest-running, reasure GZ of iminent death, gun reaching for, gun reaching for- loss, get shot, sit up, confirme that GZ “got me”, then get around to dying. That kid was quite the multi-tasker.
When ever I think of GZ being beaten and suffocated to death, yet still having the where with all to hold a short but coherent conversation with John (?). A conversation that Trayvon wasn’t the least bit concerend about. GZ could shimmy, but he couldn’t use his UNrestrained hands for any purpose other than to shoot a kid with candy and fruit juice.
There was no recording on the audio of such beating at all on the 911 call
I’m not trying block indent any more.
It doesn’t work for me, only gets confusing.
Malisha osterblender is perfect–hahah
Being investigated for fencing stolen goods? They took his phone
CONTEST: Name the scandal (being the cover-up, not the murder)
My entry: Wolfin-Gate.
My enty: Raimodo-Smith-Wolfin-Gate
Malisha, did you know Smith and Raimondo were investigated by Seminol County Sheriff DEPT 2/23/2011 in regards to THE SERMAN WARE CASE? The case where a homeless man, (Sherman Ware) was was sucker punched from behind by a SPD police officer’s son named Justin Collison… AND the case where “Fogen allegedly passed out flyers”… Check this out ~~~> http://www.scribd.com/doc/87868462/2011-Feb-23-Seminole-County-Sheriff-s-Office-Administrative-Investigation
I believe heads are def gonna roll…
I was aware that the Sherman Ware case involved Smith and Raimondo. It didn’t seem to involve Ayala, though. Fogen did not pass out any fliers. What happened was that he was enlisted by Lee to kick out the prior guy and get him replaced by Lee, excuse being that the guy before him was racist, so the political upheaval in the department used the Sherman Ware event to buttress Lee’s hostile take-over of the department. Fogen later used his “activism” on that “case” to show he wasn’t racist. It had nothing to do with racism. The prior Chief wouldn’t ever have given Fogen the time of day. He aligned himself with Lee (led to it by Osterman) to get an alliance with Lee so that Lee would put him on the force at a later point in time. But he couldn’t manage to graduate, so he was gonna have to get on the force by being a sort of private security guard FIRST and by keeping close ties to the department until he did his citizen-hero thing and got onto the force that way.
You know what he objected to the most when the guy before Lee was kicked out and replaced? He was objecting to the prior guy getting his pension. He was carrying on like a wild man to prevent the prior Chief from collecting his pension.
Lee and Wolfinger ran this corrupt organization. They should be prosecuted for RICO offenses, federally. Racketeering in the corrupt organization known as Sanford Police Department. I think there are some council members who should share federal prison cells with them, too.
Natalie Jackson was the lawyer for Sherman Ware
The allegations of Zimmernuts Fogenhats helping in any way is a load of lies
The only thing he did was publicly chastise the SPD and then the Chief then was taken out
Taking out the Chief of Police seems to be what the defendant is good at because this is the second Chief he has gotten taken out
Anyways, the Fogenhats family allegations are all lies
the NAACP helped out right away, and it was taken to the press right away
Collison is a coward since he needs to attack unprovoked and in a cowardly way, by attacking from behind but at least he admits his mistake, unlike the Trayvon Murderer
@ Malisha –
“so he was gonna have to get on the force by being a sort of private security guard FIRST and by keeping close ties to the department until he did his citizen-hero thing and got onto the force that way.”
Can one do that? Can one become a member of the police force without going through police training?
Probably… Most people don’t know that cities, counties and states, all hold themselves immune from the laws that they pass for the citizenry. I learned that when seeking a health permit for a restaurant, in a city owned building that did not have the required plumbing. This would have put the poor guy out of business and bankrupted his family, the city manager refused to do anything about it. Someone referred him to me. I immediately suspected that the City Manager could not be forced to comply with city codes, because cities usually hold themselves exempt from the laws they require everyone else to follow.
Sure enough, the city was exempt from the health department’s requirements. But, the city had gone one step further and said that no city department shall have the power to order compliance. Hahaha… So, all I had to do was go to Commissioner and complaint on behalf of the City Manager. Presto, the permit that endangered the public’s health had to issue. There simply was no way around it other than for the city to do the expensive plumbing upgrade, which they still refused to do, but quietly. They simply canceled his lease when it ran out. But, at least he was able to recover his expenses and start up somewhere else. Whew, that was a close one, eh? Never did get paid for that effort, seems the most complex cases never pay. Oh well.
My entry: SPuD-Gate.
FWIW: Smith was a bystander at the Ware beating, and was cleared of any wrongdoing in THAT affair by the investigation that followed. Based on what Malisha says about SPD poiltics, I would guess Smith is one of Lee’s peeps, and would not have been vested in protecting Collison, who was connected to the old regime.
That’s debatable follow the paper trail. What amazes me is that
Fogen infiltrated two police depts lake Mary Pd and SPD from his 47 calls check locations from papa z and RVC. Does anyone think fogens party was at RVC– no-ostermannnn – yea 100 fountain dr- yea – mr billy the adjunct instructor for 19 yrs teaching in the areas of firearms,defensive tactics . Oh malisha you are always on tarjaaaa practice. On my way to target to grocery shop with my gun.
My entry: Lee and Smith.
Who is gate?
You know, -gate as in suffix added onto a word to denote a scandal involving the base word. Watergate, Strippergate.
List of -gates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_with_%22-gate%22_suffix
Watergate was the name of an apartment or office complex where some men working for the Nixon campaign burglarized a Democratic Party office, so the scandal got named after the building. Ever since then, the suffix -gate has been used in names of scandals.
ahhhh!!! Omg I feel so slow.. _) Thank you!
Hotel. Watergate Hotel.
When you look at the “re-enactment” video you see something that is almost inexpressible about Fogen. He is so arrogant about telling a story that he has not even tried to fit it into the known, knowable facts of the incident. To me, this means that by the time he was doing the “re-enactment,” he had been assured that he would not be charged with any crime. He was just telling his story his way; he was not concerned with trying to make it plausible or anything else. In a way, that gives the prosecution so much MORE to work with because if he had not been assured there would be NO CHARGES, he might have shut his mouth and lawyered up.
That, I think, relates to the cop telling the other cop, “We got f*cked up the a55.” The cops were probably assured, as was Witness “MMA style punches” John, that they could just say and do any old thing because there would not be a price to pay. Then when they all had their feet squarely shoved into their lying mouths, uh oh, there were charges drawn.
What oh what would they do?
Well, John Witness could go from “MMA-style punches” to “Gee I dunno, it was dark.”
The cops? They could go from, “we have no evidence that it isn’t just like Fogen said,” to, “I didn’t take any notes at those meetings so I dunno…well shucks, it warn’t ME!”
Wolfinger? Wants to spend more time with his family.
Lee? Has Patty Mahaney to comfort him. My My My My My! 🙄
He also mentioned at the second bond hearing that he felt betrayed because he was arrested and that is why he was lying
so, if that is not another big whopper presented by the defendant, you may have something there
I see. So it is okay to lie to the court if you feel betrayed. He is a piece of work.
Rachael, in the same manner, GZ believes that he killed Trayvon in self-defense because as he told Hannity, he was nervous and terrified that the cops would arrive and find him standing there with his gun and shoot him. In his mind, that is self-defense and he should not have been arrested for saving his own life.
That’s called terminal stupidity. He’s damaged his own credibility, that he desperately needs to defend himself against these serious charges, because he felt someone did something wrong to him?
MOM needs to explain what that old Roman saying means: “Trust, like the soul, never returns once it goes!” Telling Aunt Sally that her horrid dress looks lovely is one thing. Telling the court you’re broke, and need a low bail, while you actually have 200k plus, under oath, is quite something else.
Someone explain to GZ that when the jurors hear someone call him a “decent American”, the SP will show the jurors, what happened at the bail hearing. I sincerely doubt that the jurors will believe that’s what a decent American does, lies under oath for any reason. Less for a reason a 2 year old might give.
Fogen and at least his father and brother have obvious mental illness. Notice how they’re even MORE adamant than he is about what happend. They tell the story as though they were there, and that everything Fogen says is the Gods honest truth! And they just MAY believe him. Even though he has a long history of violently or aggressivly confronting people whom he doesn’t even know! I think that they’ve ALL be diagnosed, but like most people with mental illness, they don’t follow through, take their meds properly, or just reject the truth…. if they even realize the truth.
I’m very curious to know as to why RZSr. retired so young, especially when he and his wife aren;t financially comfortable. I’d bet that he was likely forced to retire, due to noticable racial bias, lack of common/normal understanding, and noticable mental disfunctions. Man! I’d love to know the story behind all that.
Am I alone in my thinking?
Because I am not a psychiatrist and because I do not have access to them for an evaluation, I can not agree. Last I heard, lying is not a mental illness.
Why do you think Robert Sr. retired early. He is a Veteran and worked in the Public Service. I don’t think their financial stability is ours to examine. They are not on trial.
Furthermore, people properly diagnosed and living with mental illness do take their medication. In fact, very few are a menace to society as you are inferring.
I am more afraid of those walking among us who have undiagnosed mental illness and carrying a gun.
Since you have made thate statement about people not taking their medication – question – how many people have murdered who have ADD or ADHD. Blanket statements about subjects you know nothing about is wrong. References, statistics, links, please.
It is very important that the mentally ill take their meds. Some take the meds, think they feel better and don’t need them, then they stop! My sister is in prison because no one could make her take meds for bipolar paranoid schizophrenia. My sister got an 8 year sentence, has done more than half, and has not been made to take meds. They said they can’t make her. She will leave prison bipolar paranoid schizophrenic with institutional mentality added.
Are you wrong in your thinking — YES! How would you even begin to analyze the murderers family. Unbelievable! What do you know about them, really. Liars, yes – proven. Anything else – don’t even go there.
If the state goes after the defendant for that infringement of law of the lying on a bond application, it is an easy nickel to add onto the defendant’s sentence
There are plenty of people with mild ADHD and ADD who function quite well without medication. So if Fogen takes medication for his ADHD, it may be fairly severe.
Also, Fogen may have other mental or emotional problems, as might possibly be illustrated by all the brouhaha surrounding his medical records and what parts Judge Nelson declared relevant to the case.
“Also, Fogen may have other mental or emotional problems, as might possibly be illustrated by all the brouhaha surrounding his medical records and what parts Judge Nelson declared relevant to the case.”
Two sides – I agree. What medications GZ was taking 4 years ago has a lot more potential relevance to this case than whether Trayvon had any disciplinary problems 4 years ago in middle school!
Ive said it before ..Whatever people can hear in those tapes..One thing we dont hear .An even the defensant doesnt claim to have said..STOP OR I WILL SHOOT….
You said it!
Yelling that would have ruined his plans to be incognito
Well said!
Just occurred to me: If Fogen could get his gun out of the holster and raise it enough to shoot Trayvon Martin in the chest while still not shooting his own left hand in the process, then he could also get his gun out of the holster, NOT SHOOT AT ALL, but smash the but of the pistol right into Trayvon Martin’s face, paralyzing him and knocking him off that perch so he (Fogen) had a chance to scramble out from under him and aim his pistol while shouting:
“Freeze or I’ll Shoot; I ain’t foolin’ around; I’m a real gun-totin’ armed hero and I know how to use this thing; I’ll blow your brains out like a bad guy in a video game; make my day, homie!”
Yeah.
Like that.
That idjut could’ve done a hundred different things and avoided a death.
darn tootin’
I think the major point is that Fogenhats should have not set out to harm Trayvon that night and just let it go when the cops told him to
SYG revision in the works…..
http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/Fla-senator-files-stand-your-ground-revision/-/11788162/17844476/-/spamln/-/index.html#ixzz2Fc5GlyLA
Maybe there’s hope for FL after all.
I truly hope so. I have a young nephew who lives there and a sister-in-law there. I hope other states will follow suit.
It won’t succeed, republicans control the state, Gov’s commission recommended no change needed.
Thank goodness!
It is going to depend on what happens during the next few trials
Because people are committing manslaughter and murder and abusing the law to try and get off (in pretty much all cases I have read, the defendant was lying and made up stuff)
So if it continues where people who are lying and trying to abuse the statute and succeed in getting off of criminal acts
Then you will see changes
If justice is properly served the Governor can easily say there is no need for changes without any public pressure
Personally my only avocation is that anyone caught abusing the statute to commit murder should be punished more severely
@ Jun –
“Personally my only avocation is that anyone caught abusing the statute to commit murder should be punished more severely”
I like that idea.
When someone is accused of Manslaughter or Murder (or most any other crime), I see very few who would admit to having committed the crime. It is up to the State to prove guilt. If I were to be facing life in prison, I think I too would do whatever I could to stay out of prison. I would use every avenue available to me. I would take a chance on a jury. A maybe is always better than a No.
It isn’t an abuse of the system. It is simply the State having to prove the charges.
It makes the crime more aggravated in my mind, especially killing another person, because it shows premeditation and depravity to make up lies and disrespect a dead person, in my mind
I am just saying that the State still has to prove their case but if they want to gamble after viciously murdering another, and committing more acts of sin, then let them get more punishment
Yes, I can see why people will lie to court and try to get off but in terms of murdering another person and than abusing a statute to protect honest citizens and making up lies about a dead murdered person is just wrong IMO
SYG is like a slot machine for murderers– if they win,not only are they free from criminal prosecution, but from any and all civil liability! Jackpot!
Not to mention that according to a site that’s fighting for more gun control, the NRA has gained 7,000 members since the Conn mass shooting.
Oh, and the NRA pushed the sale of assualt and other military weapons that no one thought would ever be in the public domain . . . and they started their campaign in FL. FL has always been their experimental first state, including the push for SYG.
Thanks for that info.
Mandatory blood draw.
Any discharge of a firearm outside of a gun range. Yes, even hunting/cleaning accidents.
Full toxicology.
Take the determination of “under disability” out of the officers’ hands.
As “professional judgement” can, and has, been swayed. That’s the best I can offer up for defense of the SPD. Or any Investigating authority for that matter.
This case has it all, doesn’t it?.
There is something seriously wrong with Florida. Man shot other guy over pork chop and is claiming self defense. Oy Vey
http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/volusia-county/Argument-over-pork-chop-sparks-deadly-shooting-police-say/-/12983450/17745064/-/gl5v4xz/-/index.html?fb_ref=activity-bar
And when we said “Gunshine State” someone begged to differ. Ha!
First it was a pizza, now it’s a pork chop, what next?
Pizza, pork chop, loud music, walking in the rain.
What’s next?
God only knows.
Something has got to be done!!!
Blushed, you took the cake with this comment:
“I wouldn’t be able to stand next to guy without me having to stand my ground.”
Girl, you cracked me UP! I’ve been picturing it — you standing there and giving him his warning: “Man, if you don’t shut your mouth I’m gonna have to stand my ground at you!” Loved it, LOVED IT!
You’ve made my day, Malisha!!!
No I can go primp around the house, and yell
“I’m standing my ground Frank now back the hell out of here before I put a hurting on youuuuuu”!!!!!
Hahahahahaha.
sorry typo should read *NOW
I really need a new keyboard!!!!
> “Now I can go primp around the house, and yell > > “I’m standing my ground Frank now back the hell out of here before I put a hurting on youuuuuu”!!!!!” > > > > LOL! And she’s mad as hell and she ain’t gonna take it anymore! >
Sent from my iPod
LOL with Cielo62
The Defence an the accused did indeed catch the more than one voice comment,,It was attorney West whom stood up an asked if the State has anhanced copies of the tape revealing 2 voices .They want a copy…So if the State has had the tapes enhanced ect..If they reveal more clarity of whats being said an by whom an the presance of two voices…Is that considered work product an excempt from disscovery?
No, that would not be work product.
Work product is the writings, notes, memoranda, reports on conversations with the client or witness, research, and confidential materials which an attorney has developed while representing a client, particularly in preparation for trial. A “work product” may not be demanded or subpenaed by the opposing party, as are documents, letters by and from third parties and other evidence, since the ***work product reflects the confidential strategy, tactics and theories to be employed by the attorney.***
It is so obviously not the defendant screaming. It sounds like a kid screaming and last time I checked, the defendant is an adult male who has a low creepy stalker voice he talks in.
I rely on my first impression when I first heard the tape of that call. My first impression was that the screams stopped with the gunshot, meaning that they came from the person who was shot.
The State has the reasonable person argument for the jury in their closing argument in addition to photos. Which photo is the one with a tear on their face? The defendant, or the victim? The victim. Would a reasonable person crying out for help, believing that they were one minute from being killed, stop crying after firing their gun?
There’s loads of evidence that it is Trayvon screaming but I feel the most important aspect is that it sounds nothing like the defendant and it sounds like a kid screaming
The experts who went on TV with their analysis said it best… it is just not the defendant
But I agree… even all the witnesses, with the exception of 6 & 11, who said they could not identify, have all stated either that it was the person who was shot screaming or it was a kid or both
The tears add more to it because it shows the victim was stressed out
The defendant’s vitals were normal so it shows he is a sociopath
Jun: You say the following:
There’s loads of evidence that it is Trayvon screaming but I feel the most important aspect is that it sounds nothing like the defendant and it sounds like a kid screaming.
Where is this evidence. Or, are you assuming. If it is the latter and there is no evidence, please do not state assumptions as fact.
I would like to see your links or references when making statements as fact, please.
It has been rehashed and gone over so many blood clot times but
1) It does not sound like the defendant’s voice, in fact, it sounds like a kid screaming, and last time I checked, Trayvon is the kid of the two
2) Witness 1, Witness 18, Witness Mary Cutcher & her roommate all say it sounded like a kid screaming
3) With the exception of witness 6 & 11, all the other witnesses on scene attribute the screaming to the person that was shot. Their testimony was that there were screams for help, which were abruptly stopped at the gunshot. Last time I checked, Trayvon was shot.
4) Trayvon was found with tears on his face
5) The defendant’s signs were all level and normal when found by authorities
6) Trayvon was a 17 year old kid with candy, ice tea, a heart stickered cellphone and $40. The defendant was an adult male with a gun and 50 cents, a car, and was heard earlier scaring the kid to run away from him, as he was acting malicious toward’s the kid. Who in the scenario, would be the one who would be in a reasonable state of fear, the kid or the adult?
7) The evidence will show that the defendant targeted and stalked, and pursued the victim with a gun, was never attacked at all by the victim, and had every advantage in the world against the kid. The evidence will show that the defendant had no reason to scream, hence it was Trayvon screaming.
8) Even though Robert Zimmerman Sr. is a blood clot liar, he still admitted it sounded like a kid screaming when he stated “it sounded like the defendant in Virginia” and the defendant moved from Virginia when he was 17 or 18.
9) Sybrina and Tracy both identify the person screaming as Trayvon
10) Deedee will likely also attribute the screaming to Trayvon
11) Experts have already ruled out the defendant as the screamer
I can reasonably conclude and logically say it was the victim Trayvon screaming
Add that the defendant has a history of acting aggressively with strangers. People whose ability to defend themselves could not be known by him, did not deter him from physically assaulting them, shows he had the confidence that he could handle strangers. A fact of employment as a bouncer, serves to confirm that the defendant is not cowed by any threat of physical force.
The defendant is not mere armed, but he is armed with a deadly weapon, that he has taken pains to load to the max, with extraordinarily deadly ammunition. Hardly anything a person, not focused on the practical use of his firearm, would do.
Jun, you forgot to mention what I consider perhaps the most compelling evidence of all: GZ’s voice can be heard on the tape, at the same time or almost the same time as the screaming.
I think it’s exempt. The enhancement and the enhancers can be challenged in court, the evidence the work is based on is already accepted. More over, what the enhancement reveals is the same as what is on the evidence tapes already turned over.
If the problem is simply that the defense cannot afford to do this work on it’s own, then the proper motion is to request that the judge give them access to the enhancements, not to demand that work product be turned over in discovery, since there is no right to have that done.
But, the law does allow the judge to make exceptions to the work product rule, and that is what MOM should be pursuing, an exception, for cause.
I feel West & Omara are just hard of hearing because they keep needing to have everything repeated numerous times to them in court
such as the Crump issue, when it was ruled like ages ago and they kept talking about things that were already ruled
There is a second voice out there in the audio and if Omara can not tell it is Trayvon screaming, he needs his ears checked because it is so obviously the kid screaming, because, it sounds like a kid screaming, and doesnt sound like the defendant
@ Jun –
“I feel West & Omara are just hard of hearing. . . ”
Hahahahaha Good one.
They aren’t hard of hearing though. They are putting on a show for the public, complete with reruns. You missed it the first time? They will replay it for you again.
How DARE he accuse the defense of trying this in the media, when HE is the one doing that
I mean prosecution.
I feel like we are the defense, defending Trayvon, who is dead who should need no defending.
How twisted this has become.
Where is the evidence that it is Trayvon and not Fogen who is screaming. We may hypothesize, theorize, or assume all we like. But, is there evidence to prove it is Trayvon. Because you say it is does not make it so.
When I first read a news broadcast that Trayvon called 911 just before he was shot, I held on to it. Someone put that broadcast on Youtube. That report says that the recording captured GZ’s voice, and the FBI has the tape to enhance it to determine what GZ was saying to Trayvon.
When I researched it, ABC explained that the reporter mis-spoke and it was a 911 call made by a ear-witness. That is the call with the screams.
Here’s the thing. We, the public, were limited to hearing GZ’s voice on his NEN call. Then he testified in court and we heard more of his voice. Then there was the Hannity interview making it possible to recognize GZ’s voice. So I listened to that call, and I listened some more, and I used headphones and adjusted the equalizer.
GZ’s voice is heard on that recording and it is heard while there are screams of pain, “No” and for help. GZ cannot talk in two voices at the same time.
So, let’s use a process of elimination as you have introduced. Since GZ’s voice is recognized cursing, while another voice is screaming in pain and for help, the most logical conclusion is that it is not GZ crying for help and the other voice that was silenced with the gunshot is that of Trayvon Martin.
I know for a fact that you are misreading what I say. Please explain what this means:
————————————–
“Where is the evidence that it is Trayvon and not Fogen who is screaming. We may hypothesize, theorize, or assume all we like. But, is there evidence to prove it is Trayvon. Because you say it is does not make it so.”
—————————–
In context to what I have said about “prosecutorial work product”. I was trying to give an example only. When the SP takes the same tape they have turned over to the defense, and has their expert(s) enhance it, they take that information and formulate their own theory or theories based on that work. The defense has the same opportunity to do the same and formulate alternative theories.
So, re-read what I wrote and you’ll find that I made no assertions as to what the evidence actually shows, because that was not the point of what I had written in that post. The point was to illustrate what is work product from what is not. Thus, I am not trying to make anything “so” by saying it.
———————————————–
Having said that, I sincerely doubt that, since there were only two people outside making the sounds recorded on the 911 tape, and since there are voices that are saying different things in vastly differing ways. My guess is that the voice that appears to be asking questions, is going to be assigned as most likely being GZ, who is bigger, more aggressive and armed. While the more timid voice that is responding is going to be assigned to Trayvon. But that’s just my guess, always has been my guess, and I’ve always asserted that it is my guess, I have never asserted it to be a fact, because it’s still generally agreed to be a fact in controversy.
On the other hand, I don’t consider any fight at all to be a fact in controversy. Can you guess why?
Whilst the TreeNuts ridicule and attack Benjamin Crump, Natalie Jackson, Bernie de la Rionda and this site condemns them for doing it, why are there some on this blog who feel they can do the same about Mark OMara, and Don West and believe it to be okay. I am just not getting it. I do not think either one of them are hard-of-hearing. But, I dont have a trained ear or the equipment and processes to determine as fact that those screams were Trayvons. I am certain the court will not be satisfies with everyone saying, I know what I hear. Facts or proof, please.
I am no expert in audio analysis and I do have a in audio engineering but
I feel I can tell it is Trayvon screaming just on the fact it does not sound like the defendant talking, and it sounds like a kid screaming and the screaming abruptly stopped at the gun shot
I also do not feel I am disrespecting Omara or West at all, as the only explanation I can draw is they are both hard of hearing hence everything needing to be repeated so much to them, and they can’t tell it is not the defendant on the tapes
It seems to me that MOM is struggling to keep, already refuted testimony/evidence alive, by reciting it again and again. Obviously, at a motions hearing, is not the proper place to try evidence. He keeps resurrecting the retracted MMA blows, as “vicious assault”.
But, because he has no further supporting evidence to add, to make it any more believable than it first was, it fails and he let’s it go at that.
He never replies to the SP’s answers, to the points of evidence he raises. Thus he lets his own motions fail for lack of further support.
That means that either these motions are “throwaway” fishing expeditions, or that he’s using them to “inform” the public.
@ grahase
If I am not mistaken, two world renowned audio-experts have ruled Zimmerman out as the screamer on the 911-tape. If I am not mistaken, the said experts have successfully testified in few (murder) cases in other States. If I am not mistaken, expert-opinion is considered evidence, “fact” or “proof”. If you rule Zimmerman out, the it must – a-contrario – be Trayvon screaming for help on that tape. This is also considered “fact” or “proof” (and there is yet more to come per BDLR).
On the sidebar: IMO, it is PERFECTLY legitimate to discuss and/or ATTACK the actions of the professional actors in this case. The observations of JUN et al with regard to said actions are based on facts (and you might want to view the videos of the hearings). Unlike the “Rag Tag Bunch of Conservative Misfits” (so they describe themselves) who, among others, use racial slurs in attacking Trayvon, his parents, Crump, Jackson, etc., JUN is discussing exclusively the actions of the defense team. If you disagree with his statement, e.g.: “I feel West & O’Mara are just hard of hearing. . . ” one would expect you to engage him, tell him why you disagree and ask him for facts upon which his statement is based. I am sure he will readily oblige or withdraw his statement if he cannot back it up. Finger pointing and drawing (offensive) false equivalencies between the attitude of some of us here and those of a “Rag Tag Bunch of Conservative Misfits” – who primarily are driven by racial hatred – do stifle healthy debate. I am sure that’s not what you want.
“If you rule Zimmerman out, THEN it must – a-contrario – be Trayvon screaming for help on that tape. This is also considered “fact” or “proof” (and there is yet more to come per BDLR)”.
As to West and O’Mara being hard of hearing I think they and the prosecution are talking past each other. West and O’Mara were looking for access to the actual recording device used by Crump. While they got access to it, they didn’t realize it b/c they thought the actual device was something else.
It’s a common problem. Someone asks a question, you answer their question. They ask again. You’ve answered their question so why are they asking again? Oh, well, give them the same answer which is just as insufficient as the first time and here we go. It turns out that there was a misunderstanding of what was being asked so the answer didn’t make sense to the person asking the question.
Both parties have a responsibility to sort out the misunderstanding.
West asked for the original recording — not the recording device. After he received the original recording, he complained about not being able to hear it, then he asked for attorney Crump’s personal property; i.e., the recording device. Crump turned it over to FDLE and rightfully so. West can listen to the recording on the recording device in FDLE’s office, but has no lawful right to take it into his possession.
It’s a useless, time consuming game that West and O’Mara are playing. Apparently, they have bought into the conspiracy theory that Crump coached DeeDee, and there are 2 DeeDees. They can argue all they want about that interview. The fact is that the State interviewed DeeDee, in person, and that is the interview that’s more than likely to be used in the event DeeDee is deposed by West.
i’m just gonna say something about the marinade dave and taffee affair.
i DO NOT understand how any normal human being can stand to be in the presence of that POS Frances Taffee? Why?
not only that but then to feature him on his website and interview him at the court house? frances is a complete and utter waste of human breath! if scumminess was illegal he’d be on death row.
Frances has made the most offensive comments on twitter about Trayvon and Sybrina and Tracy that i’ve ever heard made in my life!! He’s a filthy dirty drunken loser with NO self respect! And he’s an idiot. I wouldn’t be surprised if his IQ is in the double digits. Nothing he says is based on reality. I’m not just talking about the bad mouthing and name calling, i’m talking about his illogical thinking, the way he precieves things.
Ok, in the beginning, before we heard from GZ it was an fantastic spectacle watching Frances on TV acting like a 1956 Mississippi KKK reject. It showed us a peek into GZ’s world. But that’s it. There’s nothing else to see here. He’s empty of any pertinent information. He doesn’t know or remember exactly what GZ’s stories have been so he keeps contradicting himself and GZ.
I just don’t see value in anything he has to say. And i personally couldn’t control myself around that guy like Dave does in the video.
i’m just sayin.. i could barely watch the video it was so boring. but i made myself just in case there was something there i’d be sorry i’d miss.
@Shannon
I totally get what you are saying. I wouldn’t be able to stand next to guy without me having to stand my ground.
But in any event, I think Dave was trying to helps us in regards of getting even a closer look at the area, even if he had to endure the idiotic garbage Frank was spewing. Dave has gotten alot of requests for more detail about the clubhouse. Such as, Where are the locations of the cameras inside? Did GZ have access to the clubhouse? Do you need keys? Who was the witness in the cop car? Where is the other cut thru by Franks? Where are the windows located, catching light events? Alot of questions got answered by that particular video and are being worked on right now because of Dave’s access thru Frank. I thank Dave again and again for getting those videos. I also give a extra little prayer for putting up with the crap he gets from his videos. Helping us in getting additional evidence that we can piece together is all Dave is striving forin achieving Justice for Trayvon.
“Who was the witness in the cop car? ”
what witness in what car and when and were?
If you wanna see GZ at the clubhouse with the flashlight check out Trent’s videos too. he also shows GZ’s car lights and his movements that night. ( if you haven’t seen them before)
Trent Sawyer on You Tube. @ state of the internet
@Shannon
The witness in the car is listed as witness 13.
Audio File Number One.
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
The audio states from Serino the interview is being conducted in his car.
Frank says in his walk thru with Dave, says Amanda is calling the police on them right now. He also says he was in the cop car. He shouldn’t have said her name but he did. He runs his mouth and doesn’t realize what he is doing. He also states that Amanda is the wife of the HOA President or Expresident of the HOA.
I also know that witness 19 said in her audio interview that the Presiden of the Hoa was in his driveway. She said that the president of the HOA was giving her a look of not to talk to the reporters. That can be found also on Axiom.
What he said is strange because the witness list has been mostly broken down already of who is who and where everyone lives.
So it was an interesting little tidbit if true. If true we have some people names to either rearrange or move to a different living spot on the witness maps.
Yes I have seen Trent’s work.
But some of those other details helps those video geniuses, like Trent in putting more evidence together.
I thought it was Witness 13 that signed the scene’s contamination list. Am I correct?
@Yahtc
Yes. I double check contamination logs. His name is on there as Joe M.
Yep, Dave has to put up with FT because, up until now, he’s the only ticket into RATL. In the month leading up to this visit, a whole bunch of questions about details of RATL were asked, way too much to put in just this one video, so I suspect there will be more.
So we owe a big debt of gratitude to Dave for getting this material.
We also learned that TM could have taken a shorter route home. But that shorter route involved using FT’s cut through as well. As Dave said, TM may not have known the shortest route home, since he had not been there long enough to have been all over the place.
The route he chose would be the route, pretty nearly the same as one traveled by car. North to the front gate and west to the store.
If he’d been to the store before, kids may have shown him the short cut or told him about it when he played football out back of Ms Greens home.
FT says that the front, pedestrian gate is always locked. You don’t need a key to go out, but you need a code to get back in. Of course, it doesn’t matter much which cut through TM came back with, because he was at the mail boxes before GZ even left home.
GZ leaves home some time around 6:06 or so and the police arrive at 6:17 So the whole thing took about 11 minutes in the rain. Now, what time did the medics see dried blood? Think about it.
Yep.
We owe a big debt of gratitude to Dave for getting this material.
In the video, Frank was giving all these alternate routes. I find what he was saying is bullcaca.
Going back and rereading Brandy Green statement. She said,Trayvon had been to her house about 7-8 times in the duration of her being with his Dad for about 2 1/2 years. They saw each other twice a month. The last time, was the first time Trayvon had stayed at her residence without his father.
She also believes that this was the first time he walked to the
7-11.
This leads to me to think he wasn’t all that familar with all those routes, as Frank suggest. Most people stick to the same route over and over again. Considering what Brandy is saying most of the times he vistited was when he was 14,15 & 16 years old. He would of prolly needed his father to take him everywhere, since he had no license.
So, all those alternate routes that Frank suggest is bullcaca. He wasn’t there that often to do that. And he would of stayed close to Brandy’s place, when he was younger. JMHO.
Okay, this information makes it more likely that he took the route suggested by LLMPapa. If this was his first trip to the 711, he’d most likely follow very close to the route taken by car. He has to do that or risk getting lost. So he has to use a cut through because, as FT says the pedestrian gate is always locked, it only opens without a code or card from the inside. From the outside you need a code or a key card. So he has to come in through a cut through, he’d take the one facing on Rinehart road.
Once inside the Retreat he has to walk to the front gate to get his bearings again, so then he turns and goes to the mail shed, because the rain has been getting harder all the way back.
According to the figures we have on the rain, though, it was raining harder when he left the shed, than it was when he got there. Meaning that his reason for leaving was likely his fear of GZ, and not that the rain had slacked off.
@Lonnie
Lonnie wrote:
Okay, this information makes it more likely that he took the route suggested by LLMPapa. If this was his first trip to the 711, he’d most likely follow very close to the route taken by car. He has to do that or risk getting lost.
Exactly. I wonder also about the FDLE getting the video tapes from the businesses along side Rhinehart Ave.
Click to access fdle_reports_march.pdf
The ones we got to see where the bank and the clubhouse.
Considering some fool at FDLE decided there was no evidentiary value from the clubhouse, which is totally not the case. I would like to see ALL the videos they obtained.
Didn’t Crump say something about Trayvon having the code?
Yes.
But we are not sure if he assumed that he used a code.
Or has gotten that information from HOA entry data from front gate or got that from DeeDee.
I have the video interview portion of that somewhere, if you like I will post.
“i could barely watch the video it was so boring. but i made myself just in case there was something there i’d be sorry i’d miss.”
I thought FT further injured his credibility with his stolen big screen TV growing in size and he kind of incriminated further GZ for the habit of profiling blacks. Don’t know if it is admissible in court, but you could see where he and GZ were coming from targeting black males. Interesting that he showed up at court too. What’s with that? Didn’t Mark O’Mara/GZ throw him under the bus? Also interesting that he would give an interview to an unknown person but I it appears FT loves the camera as much as RZ Jr.
That’s why I think it’s important to keep interviewing the players – they continue to incriminate themselves.
Exactly.
I have no idea. I don’t know how I GOT the icon thingy to start with. I don’t know how to get them and I didn’t know I had one.
@Rachael, don’t worry, I need coffee too. I have begun to wonder how I got my icon thingy and I got a little bit paranoid about it. “What does it mean?”
LOL. WordPress blogs assign you one when you sign up to comment. Somehow I got a different one for awhile, then WordPress snapped back to normal and gave me my old one back.
Oops, last line was vestigial…
How come you icon thingy changed?
Oops, sorry. I think I was getting you mixed up with Xena. I need coffee!!!
I was just fantasizing that the following had happened:
Fogen had done everything exactly as it happened on 2/26/2012 but he did not have hollowpoint bullets in his kal-tec, he had only regular bullets, and the bullet passed right through Trayvon Martin’s body and out without hitting any organ or main artery, and even missing his spine, and he was taken to the E.R. and treated successfully and nine days later he got out of the hospital. While he was in the hospital, Fogen was interviewed and claimed that Trayvon had assaulted him without provocation and beaten him nearly to death and should be charged with attempted murder. In the hospital, as soon as he regains consciousness, Trayvon says that Fogen followed him, interrogated him about “who was robbing people in the neighborhood” and then shot him while he screamed for help, and should be charged with aggravated assault, attempted murder, and discharging a handgun in a public place.
Trayvon Martin gets charged with attempted murder and held without bail.
Fogen goes on Hannity. Hannity asks Fogen why he thinks the police should not believe Trayvon’s story. Fogen says: “Of course he is telling that story so that he won’t be convicted. He wants to make it look like he was just defending himself. He doesn’t want to spend the rest of his life in prison so he is lying. What he did that night was not self-defense from me, but his lies are his defense against being punished. But we are a country ruled by laws, and he has to stand trial and try to convince a jury. He can’t just try to kill somebody and then go, ‘oh it was self-defense’ and get off! He tried to kill a decent American!”
Hannity asks, “But he is saying you were following him and trying to do him harm. Why would he say that?”
Fogen says: “What motive would I possibly have to try to hurt somebody I didn’t even know?”
“He is lying to protect himself
Good one…as usual malisha. 🙂 That is exactly how it would be had Trayvon survived.
Hollow points should be illegal.
Between Zimmerman and Fraleigh: the power of ballistics
THE CASE AGAINST FRALEIGH
Orlando Sentinel reported the following with regard to the Fraleigh case:
“Fraleigh said he swung the shovel after Wells had charged him, head down, and struck him below his waist. He was afraid, Fraleigh testified, that he was about to suffer a serious injury. But in a written order signed Wednesday, Circuit Judge Debra S. Nelson described Fraleigh as the aggressor. He was not defending himself, she wrote, and thus was not entitled to immunity. Her order made clear that she did not believe Fraleigh’s account. The wound on the back of Wells’ neck, she wrote, indicating that Fraleigh whacked the victim as he was walking away — not while the two were in contact. She made that conclusion, she wrote, because the shovel handle was about 5-feet long, too long for the close contact blow that the defendant described.”
THE CASE AGAINS GEORGE ZIMMERMAN
In the Zimmerman case, Zimmerman (according to O’Mara) is not claiming that he was standing his ground. He is claiming immunity under the traditional self-defense statute. Zimmerman (according to O’Mara claims) wasn’t able to make use of the SYG provisions because he was being pinned to the ground by Trayvon who knocked him down with a single punch to the face, broke his nose, mounted him and started straddling him and dishing out deadly blows to his face and head. Zimmerman could not retreat nor could decide whether or not to retreat and had to rely on the use of the traditional self-defense.
HOW WOULD JUDGE NELSON RULE IN ZIMMERMAN’S CASE
In Fraleigh’s case objective evidence destroyed his self-defense claim. As Judge Nelson noted, ‘the wound on the back of Wells’ (the victim) neck indicate that Fraleigh whacked the victim as he was walking away not while the two were in contact. The shovel handle was about 5-feet long, too long for the close contact blow that the defendant described’.
In Zimmerman’s case, Judge Nelson would also have to choose between Zimmerman’s statements and the elementary laws of physics and consistent witness testimonies. Judge Nelson will first consider that (a) witnesses are consistent in their testimonies that both Trayvon and Zimmerman were on the ground with one on top of the other when the fatal shot was fired. Judge Nelson will further consider that (b) according to the autopsy report the bullet that killed Trayvon entered his cardiac region from the front to the back in a perfect straight line/“with no angles”. This bullet-trajectory makes one simple exclusive, imperative and scientific statement: Zimmerman could NOT have fired that straight shot from an angled position – i.e. while on his back with Trayvon mounted on top of him straddling- beating and suffocating him. The combination of witness testimonies and the autopsy report will makes the conclusion unavoidable: Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon when he shot and killed him.
And Fogen instigated the fight, if there was a fight.
You don’t get to call the thing a “non-fight” right up to the point where you believe you might lose.
Although Fogen’s story is false, even if it were true, he would be expecting us to believe, and expecting Judge Nelson to rule, that the conduct displayed by both parties to the incident were the result NOT of Fogen’s following and scaring Trayvon Martin, but by Trayvon Martin’s strangely coincidental sudden unprovoked desire to kill a man he had never met.
Think of the coincidence that requires.
Just at the time when Fogen sees and identifies as “suspicious” a guy he never met,
Just at that time,
Trayvon sees and identifies as “someone I really want to kill tonight” a guy HE never met.
It would be one of the strangest coincidences in the history of the world. And it happened right there in Sanford. WOW!
Its called Zimmernuts Conservative Tinfoil Hat logic
Skittles, Ice Tea, $40, Cellphone with heart stickers carried by an unarmed 17 year old kid with no experience with fighting or violence and no history of criminal actions = dangerous black dynamite
Incest Molestation, Attempted Rape, Animal Abuse by kicking dog, stalking and terrorizing a kid by accusing him of stealing a bike when he did not, beating up women, beating up his ex, beating up cops, lying and scheming court and police, stalking and harassing other residents and his arab coworker, gang activity, writing disparaging remarks regarding Mexicans, getting people to take the fall for his crimes, talks with family of hating blacks, George Zimmerman with a gun = non dangerous decent American that is not racist
I am starting to believe they do not understand what
Decent is defined in a dictionary, or what is the definition for dangerous or thug LMAO
Jun, they define a Decent American as one who carries a gun. I’m sure if he had killed Trayvon by blunt force trauma, say from the flashlight, they wouldn’t care a bit for GZ. It is only because he had a precious gun and used it. Anyone who uses a gun is a hero in their eyes.
The conspiracies and theories developed by Zidiots are what I call “bigotvoyent theories.” It requires that Trayvon had pre-knowledge of GZ’s thoughts and actions before they happened. Their double-back theory is one, as it requires that Trayvon would know that GZ would get out of his truck to follow him, where GZ would walk thereafter, his return route, and the exact time that GZ would arrive at the T to be attacked.
I think their dumbest theories is that
Zimmernuts Fogenhats was allowed to follow
& Trayvon, a kid, being stalked by a complete stranger who was creepy and had malicious intent, had the stranger aggressive come at him, was not allowed to fight or defend himself at all
Anyone being stalked has a right to defend themselves from a complete stranger in the dark of the night
Are kid’s supposed to think that a stranger with a gun who keeps following and pursuing them, even after they run away, the stranger is having righteous and holy intentions?
The cops were not even there in person and even the dispatch could sense that the defendant was stalking the boy and told him pursuing him was unnecessary
Trayvon ended up being murdered so it makes more sense that he should be fearful of adult strangers stalking them, because, his fears turned out to be true
Great analysis. It challenges all our rules of logic to think that GZ could have got such a perfect a shot without him having full control of Trayvon who by then was pleading for his life… the haunting desperate “No” heard on the 911 call just before the shot was probably his final plea. Just sickening!
@SearchingMind, O’Mara is also going to have a difficult time explaining how GZ was pinned because, according to GZ’s statements he was able to move his body (shimmied) and was also free from the waist up, with both hands and arms free. GZ said that he had Trayvon’s arm pinned under his own arm — the same arm that he used to get his gun.
@xena……I’m also waiting to see what tap dance steps MOM comes up with over this conundrum. Me thinks he’s better channel his inner “Bill Bojangles Robinson”.
O’Mara is dancing now by trying to base his entire defense on photos taken of GZ other than those taken by the police in the police station. All along, O’Mara has attempted to litigate issues of GZ’s innocence at hearings intended for other matters.
He does seem pretty desperate, and you’re right about the photos. Do we know if the photos of Trayvon show that his pants (at the knee and donward) were heavily saturated by the wet grass. They would have to be IF he was straddling Fogen! And I can not wait till we get to the part where MOM/Tommy Tune has to (cause Fogen won’t take the stand) explain what Fogen was doing with his (obviously) very capable and UNrestrained hands. Though I am (almost) convinced that with the mounting evidence against him, he’ll eventually take a plea. We’ll see.
I’m not sure but it appears that labs test for debris on upper garments to establish a “pinned” story. At least, that is the impression I got from reading Orr’s immunity hearing. Legs can move, but if a person is pinned on their back, it means inability to move. Pinning also conveys a weight placed on the person preventing movement and that is why debris would be found in the clothing.
The lab found no debris in GZ’s upper clothing. It did find debris in Trayvon’s hoodie and sweatshirt.
There should also be tracks from the dragging with dna and blood.
There are two very important things in the James Fraleigh “SYG” case that are significant and that signal that Fogen’s not gonna get off with that kind of a defense. Quoted paragraphs:
“[Judge Debra Nelson] also cited the testimony of Casselberry Police Officer Brian McConologue, who said that he’d been to Fraleigh’s house about an hour before the arrest, that Fraleigh was upset then because someone had damaged his fence and some plants, was unhappy that the officer didn’t arrest Wells and said he’d take matters into his own hands.
“‘That’s then what happened,’ the judge wrote. ‘Just before the shovel blow,’ the judge wrote, ‘Fraleigh kicked the fence so that it struck Wells’ friend. That made Fraleigh the instigator, the judge wrote, making him ineligible for “stand your ground” immunity.”
So:
1. Before the incident the defendant told the police about his ill will towards his neighbor; and
2. He initiated hostilities, even though he claimed that the other man had made the first physical move (head butt) into the physical fight.
Fogen thinks he can break up the incident into discrete little parts and explain each of them away by his own magical thinking.
What happened was:
He saw and identified his victim
He expressed hostility towards his victim
He got out of his car and followed his victim
He instigated some kind of interaction during which he shot and killed his victim
BUT HE says:
He saw and identified a suspect
He asked for police help with the suspect and expressed anxiety
He got out of his car to find a street name or a house address
He was attacked
In fear for his life, he killed in self-defense
It doesn’t hang together and it won’t work. INSTIGATED is the key. You don’t get to break the act down into mini-acts, explain them all away in a contrived and non-credible fashion, and then put them back together your own way to have them prove the opposite of what they obviously show.
Good post , Malisha
http://www.fightvideomma.com/2011/06/shane-carwin-vs-junior-dos-santos-fight.html
Look at Shane Carwin’s face at the end of the 1st round
More proof that the defendant is a Big Effin Liar
With regard to the “reply to the response to the defense motion” –
O’Mara keeps saying if the state has evidence of Fogen not turning around and walkingback to his car, and later, if the state has evidence that Fogen followed Trayvon after the NEN dispatcher said not to, that the state should inform the defense and bring forth the evidence.
Question – Is the state required to turn over non-exculpatory evidence to the defense? I mean, if the Feds enhance the 911 audio and Fogen is on tape confronting Trayvon, while Trayvon screams for his life; does the state have to give that evidence to the defense? That doesn’t seem right.
Yes they do have evidence of everything
if the defendant was going back to his car, why was he seen down south on the back pathway?
Why was he seen and heard by witnesses confronting the teenager and attacking the teenager, and thus instigating a struggle?
Why are the neighbors, the witnesses, with the exception of witness 6 & 11, all attributing the screams to the person shot, and even a bunch of them stated it sounded like a kid?
Why do the voice recordings sound like a kid screaming for help?
Why was the defendant’s voice heard threatening the kid, by witnesses and a 911 recordings?
Why is the defendant not in a consistent claim with his injuries?
Why is there no forensic evidence the victim even attacked, even in self defense?
Hi JUN, Thanks. I’m not disputing whether they have evidence of these items or not. I firmly believe they do. What I don’t understand is why MOM believe this evidence and other reports/evidence of a non-exculpatory nature, should be detailed by the prosecution and turned over to him. I don’t know, I’m probably way off base here, but it just seems like he’s trying to get the prosecution to telegraph their strategy and not have to deal with the fact that his client probably lied to him.
Take the probable enhancement of the 911 call. The defense and the prosecution both have the 911 calls. They start off on equal footing. The prosecution, rightfully not believing a word that comes from Fogen’s mouth, has the tape enhanced, since if Fogen claims the screams, it is most probable it’s not him screaming and the tape may have caught him saying something else. Which we believe and BDLR, (if we interpret his comment correctly)states.
Now, if Fogen doesn’t tell his atty the truth and sticks with his “I was screaming for help” story, O’Mara may not spend the money to get an expert to enhance the tapes, or maybe he just doesn’t want to spend the money, because he thinks he will receive the report on the enhancement through his motion to require the FBI to turn over all reports/evidence relating to this matter.
My question: Is O’Mara entitled to the report on the enhancement, from the FBI/State,if it is not exculpatory, given he had an equal opportunity to enhance the tapes from the calls the defense was given from the beginning. Why or why not?
I ask because Judge Nelson didn’t order BDLR to give O’Mara the names of witnesses who ID’d Trayvon as the screamer. I surmised it was because it wasn’t exculpatory. Yet, in this latest filing, O’Mara is requesting it be ordered other non exculpatory evidence be given to him. I wonder about the tapes, because BDLR’s comment in the last hearing seems to indicate that they have Zimmerman, on audio, and not screaming for help. Which would be inculpatory? So, would O’Mara be entitled to that infomation/report?
I think the state has to turn over their evidence. The feds have not filed charges yet, so they do not have to turn over anything at all, but they have turned over some of what they have. The state has not turned over their arguments, but with what has been released, I feel you can paint a picture and see how the state has a case and it is what happened. It is so eye bleedingly obvious what happened. The state just has to turn over discovery and that is what they have done, and the offer has even been made for them to go straight to FDLE to ask for whatever they need. I feel Omara is just putting on a front, and although he comes off really sleezy, he has to act like that because he is a defense lawyer, in maintaining his client’s position.
Regarding the tape, Omara is not that stupid, at least I dont think so, and it should be fairly obvious to him that it is not the defendant screaming for help. The screams are fairly clear. It sounds like a kid screaming. It sounds nothing like the defendant. If there is an enhanced version, well, they can send one to Omara, and even if he does have it, I doubt he would admit publicly, that it is not his client screaming, no matter how obvious. I think he is entitled to the enhanced version if the state is using it in their case, but in reality, the FBI does not have to turn over anything to the defense because it has not filed charges yet on the defendant. I think Omara is asking for things that have no relevancy and also I believe he wants to leak info so that witnesses get intimidated by the defendant and his vile cult.
Everything MOM is asking for is the SP’s work product. The SP is not required to turn over their views, theories, studied or analysis of the evidence, that’s covered by, as Professor has said, by the “work product exclusion”. In effect the defense is foolishly asking the SP: “Hey you’ve got to turn over your theories and ideas about the evidence to us, so we can see what you’re seeing” It’s not going to happen.
If MOM brings this motion to court, the judge is going to give him a lesson in trial law. A lesson he’s not going to like, because it’s going to show him to have a very limited understanding of what he’s supposed to be doing.
They have already turned over the evidence. They do not have to turn over their experts’ analyses of the evidence; that’s attorney work product.
Two voice experts have already publicly opined that the screams on the tape were NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN and you can bet there is a third and/or fourth. There are experts analyzing all the other physical evidence and their work product does not get turned over. “Evidence that Fogen did not turn around” is a category of evidence we generally call “WTF evidence,” such as “Do you have evidence that a voice did NOT come down from Heaven and direct the defendant to shoot the deceased?”
O’Mara flubbed this one.
Omara asks for stupid things sometimes
He should be looking for evidence that the Zimmernuts Fogenhats the 3rd, did turn around and head to his truck
since there is none
he has to use the dumb treefort tinfoil hat arguments of
“He was legally allowed to follow, Trayvon is not allowed to defend himself, look at Trayvon’s school record, he knows MMA” and other truly stupid crap that does not prove a blood clot thing
I think Omara is hoping for a really effed up crazy jury that would allow a demented simpleton like the defendant to continue to run around, even after the long list of violence and other psychotic behavior
@ Nefertari05, Jun en Malisha
IMO, the answer to your question is not black/white. Consider this ruling from the United States District Court Southern District of Florida (CASE NO. 11-20792-CR-ALTONAGA) in UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (Plaintiff) vs. JOHN PHILIP STIRLING (defendant).
“The Government never advised the defense of the existence of the information obtained by Agent Etter. It simply never told defense counsel that incriminating Skype chats could be EXTRACTED from the disk [that was provided to the defense during the discovery phas] or that they even existed. It did not turn over the communications until the morning of its expert’s testimony, near the end of the trial. As the Defendant explains in his Reply [ECF No. 207], “[production of something in a manner which is unintelligible is really not production.” (Id. 3). This is not like the cases cited by the Government in its Response [ECF No. 204] or Surreply [ECF No. 210], where courts have consistently refused to require the Government to identify exculpatory or inculpatory evidence within a larger mass of disclosed evidence. This case brings to the fore the challenges presented when electronically stored information is produced in discovery. Commenting on the implications of criminal ESI production, the court in United States v. Briggs recently observed that while the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure need not be adopted as the standard for production of criminal ESI, the standard of Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 34(b)(2)(E)(ii) should apply and the Government be required to produce ESI in a reasonably usable form. See No. 10CR184S, 2011 WL 4017886, at *8 (W.D.N.Y. Sept. 8, 2011). If, in order to view ESI, an indigent defendant such as Stirling needs to hire a computer forensics expert and obtain a program to retrieve information not apparent by reading what appears in a disk or hard drive, then such a defendant should so be informed by the Government, which knows of the existence of the non-apparent information. In such instance, and without the information or advice to search metadata or apply additional programs to the disk or hard drive, production has not been made in a reasonably usable form. Rather, it has been made in a manner that disguises what is available, and what the Government knows it has in its arsenal of evidence that it intends to use at trial”.
It is however important to note that Fogen is not indigent and has been warned that the 911-tape might contain multiple voices, etc. Therein may lie a very important distinction between Fogen’s case and the case mentioned above (ESI = Electronically Stored Information).
Yep, what MOM is asking for is easily obtained using a stop watch a map and a better sound player, many of which can be obtained for free on the net.
@ Searching Mind – thank you. I’m kindof excited because I actually understood that precedent, you cited, when I read it! Yeah me! LOL
Okay, back to serious – “It is however important to note that Fogen is not indigent and has been warned that the 911-tape might contain multiple voices, etc. Therein may lie a very important distinction between Fogen’s case and the case mentioned above (ESI = Electronically Stored Information).”
So, aside from the work product responses I’m about to read next, the saving grace keeping O’Mara from citing this, as well, is that seemingly offhand comment BDLR made at the hearing, and Fogen’s status not being indigent. This is good! I need to review the hearing and see if O’Mara even caught it. I was listening to the TV and on my laptop at the time. I didn’t catch if O’Mara reacted to BDLR’s comment. Nevertheless, thank you for taking the time to find and post this info, and explaining the differences. I appreciate it! 🙂
@Nefertari05
If O’mara didn’t catch it at the motion hearing, he sure can read about it on page 4 of the State’s response to addt’l depo.
Click to access 12%2011%2012%20State’s%20Response%20to%20Defendant’s%20Motion%20to%20TAke%20Additional%20Deposition.pdf
The trouble with this reach of MOM for this particular work product material, has to mean that GZ is not telling MOM the truth. Obviously, since it’s his own voice that’s heard in the background of the 911 tapes, a truthful GZ would reveal that to MOM, and even what is actually being said.
The voices being heard in 911 tape, are not voices of remote strangers discussing something else. It’s GZ himself speaking or yelling at Trayvon. Hardly a wonder then, that GZ does not want to admit that to MOM, nor does MOM want to consider it himself. Because that would mean he has even less of a defense than he has now, if that’s at all possible. I think zero is the limit on how low their defense can go.
GZ is lying to his lawyer, and his lawyer doesn’t want to go digging for incriminating material, since that would make him seem a turncoat. So, he’s really asking the SP to help him out, by providing the incriminating materials to the defense, so the defense doesn’t have to do it themselves.
It’s not a bad gambit at all once you think about it! MOM doesn’t want to be the one to have to tell his client “You lied to me!” Which is what he’d have to do, if he had the 911 tapes analyzed on his own. Because that would put him in the intractable position of appearing to be in the prosecutors camp. Better to have the prosecutor “smack him in the face” with this material, so he can then turn to GZ and say “Gee, what the hell is this George?” lol
It’s not what GZ says but what he doesn’t say that no doubt makes O’Mara nervous. I would love to hear BDLR ask GZ, “You held hold on to your tactical flashlight while you were wiggling and getting punched? You only dropped it when you went for your gun?”
@Lonnie
Wouldn’t it be prudent of O’mara, right now to ask his client as soon as he got the states response, “OK, George, why is the state claiming that one can argue that two voices can be heard” What the hell is that all about? Ah to be the fly on that wall. I can only guess his response is “Ummm I don’t remember. It was 10 months ago and I have ADHD.
No, no… First George will try another lie… “Yeah, while I was screaming he was asking me what I was doing around here!”
LOL
😆
Hee hee, you’ve asked the wrong question. The state has already turned over the evidence that MOM is asking for! And no, the state is not required to turn over what it has in this regard.
Why? Because, although the underlying evidence has already been turned over, and it’s the exact same evidence that supports the SP’s claims that MOM is complaining about not having evidence of… IT’S NOT DISCOVERABLE!!! Because it’s the SP’s work product.
The SP does not have to turn over it’s theories of how the evidence should be viewed to MOM. He’s asking them, to essentially do his work for him, that is never going to happen. He needs to get out his ruler, his calculator, his walking and driving speed charts and get to work on the evidence. Because he’s a failure as an attorney, he doesn’t know how to proceed, so the evidence lays on his desk unprocessed. Then he comes into court, after reading on blogs, and demands that the SP show him how they’ve managed to figure out what happened, using the evidence they’ve already turned over to him.
I call that Major Attorney Malfunction! I can easily find high school students who could do a better analysis of the case than MOM is doing. Instead of propping GZ up in comfortable digs, he should have advised GZ not to post bail, to make more money available for experts. Too late, that train has left the station.
Whose fault is it? Well, much as I’d like to blame MOM, it’s really GZ’s fault. He created the confusion by lying at the bond hearing, making the regaining of a bond a very dramatic political achievement for the defense, they needed to get him out of jail, if the hope of raising funds was to have a chance to survive. Thus they were put into a position of having to waste precious funds, in the hopes of getting more. It was a sane gamble but they lost, also on account of the defendants big mouth on the public airwaves.
Now they’ve made a very messy bed, and worse yet, they’re all forced to lay in it. Poor babies!
@Lonnie or anyone
@ about 12:30 in Dave’ new video a walk with Frank, Frank talks about Amanda and her husband. He also says he is the one in the cop car talking to LE, possibly Serino. He also says something about president of HOA This is the part I need help discerning.
What I think he says is this:
Her husband is the FORMER HOA President
or
Her husband IS the Hoa President.
In either case we may have the witness names wrong.
I have both HOA presidents names.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
“The SP does not have to turn over it’s theories of how the evidence should be viewed to MOM. He’s asking them, to essentially do his work for him, that is never going to happen. He needs to get out his ruler, his calculator, his walking and driving speed charts and get to work on the evidence. Because he’s a failure as an attorney, he doesn’t know how to proceed, so the evidence lays on his desk unprocessed. Then he comes into court, after reading on blogs, and demands that the SP show him how they’ve managed to figure out what happened, using the evidence they’ve already turned over to him.”
Thank you! This is what I thought, although I expressed it very poorly. I’m glad you were able to see to the heart of what I was asking. It “felt” strange that O’Mara keeps asking for “evidence” of what seems to be right in front of him, but doesn’t seem positive to Fogen’s defense. It’s unfortunate if O’Mara/Fogen cannot access the specialists they need for whatever reasons, but I can’t manage to dredge up any sympathy for him. That aside, the “entitlement” these motions seem to imply on O’Mara’s side, is simply aggravating. Major Attorney Malfunction. LOL, MOM commits MAM!
I woke up this morning with another view that makes more sense.
MOM may not be acting obtuse, what he may be trying to do is, avoid having to discover, those seriously incriminating voices on the tapes, himself. Since that would put him in an awkward position of discovering his client is lying to him yet again. In which case you would have to express a severe loss of confidence in your ability to defend your client, if he didn’t come clean. In fact, you’d have the same problem if he does come clean. Given the fact that the voice on the tape is his, he could easily tell you exactly what was being said, without having to enhance the tapes at all.
That being so, then what MOM is doing is, he’s trying to preserve some semblance of confidence in his client. To do that, he needs to have the SP “smack him in the face” with this evidence, rather than discover it himself. If the SP doesn’t “throw him a rope”, and provide him with enhanced copies of the 911 call where GZ can be heard in the background, MOM may have to withdraw from the case. Because if he were to discover this material himself, GZ could rightfully claim that his own lawyer was against him. The need to express a loss of confidence in each other would be too high for MOM to continue.
It’s a serious problem, if MOM has to enhance the tapes himself, then turn to GZ and say “what the hell is this? Why didn’t you tell me?” etc., The results will be unpredictable.
@Lonnie
What did you have for breakfast?
Good post.
Bacon with french toast w/ cinnamon and sugar and a steaming hot mug of Mountain Blend Coffee. 😀
@Lonnie
Ooooh that sounds so good.
I haven’t made homemade bread in awhile. But I will this weekend just to make French Toast!
That is what Freddy stated
So yes, the state has to turn over the evidence they collected but they dont have to turn over their work product
For example, they can turn over blood splatter analysis but they do not have to turn over their actual notes on how to interpret the blood splatter analysis, for example, and how it is used
So, they can turn over the tape, but they don’t have to turn over their analysis of it. It was my impression too that when expert witnesses are listed, that the party having such experts are not required to say what they will testify other than the generics.
@ Nefertari05 –
Yep. He’s not asking for evidence, he is asking for their case. He is nuts.
Someone way upthread could not find the document indicating that Fogen asked for help – restraining this guy.
Found it: Last page of our friend Mr. Foghorns own statement. First document dump.
@Grahase.
Thank you so much for getting that information.
But I was looking for a witness statement that says he told me, “help me restrain this guy”. Not GZ, but a witness.
But thanks again, if you find that I would be forever grateful.
Maybe he said it to Osterman!
Hmmm
Didn’t think of that.
For those who haven’t already, please don’t forget to sign the “Christmas Card” for Trayvon’s family.
Taaffe pleaded no contest, charges dropped to Reckless driving related to alcohol use, 6 months probation , 25 hrs community service, get counciling and attend AA meetings regularly .
His lawyer said his association w/Fogen had complicated and added stress to Taaffe’s life.
Does to anybody’s that knows him.
25 hours community service
it’s hoped that doesn’t include “mentoring” by taaffe
Oh Gawd!
Taking Taaffe Tour at Twin Lakes:
http://marinadedave.blogspot.ca/2012/12/taking-taaffe-tour-at-twin-lakes.html?spref=tw
Taaffes DUI was dropped!!!
I watched part of the video and left Dave a comment. Taaffe falls in the category of “bigotvoyant” thinking for Trayvon, and it made me sick so I couldn’t watch the entire video.
Can not stomach the guy so I did not watch the video. In fact, I was rather miffed by the article itself. I wished that marinade Dave would have verified Taaffes break-in statistics. But, I think Malisha will be front and center to help us out with Taaffe.
No witnesses, but Taaffe knows they were young Black males. SMH. He also infers that the thieves are residents; renters. Still, I stand on the proposition that most burglaries are committed by people who have been in the house. No one can spontaneously steal a 60 inch television. That took some planning on how to move it.
BlushedBrown, you ask, “I have looked at every piece of discovery, looking for that particular statement, ” Help me restrain this guy”. To date, I haven’t found it on any of the witness statements that he said that to any of them.”
I believe it is in the Fogen “reenactment video.” He is explaining himself with his usual flowery prose.
Flowery prose,
shove it up your nose.
Big excuse,
shove it in the caboose. Uh oh, not nice, sorry. 😳
Fired one shot,
Three hots and a cot.
You are killing me here, M.
LMAO
No popcorn tonite fogen
I think it is more proof of his depraved mind
because it showcases delusion as well
He just shot an unarmed kid who only had $40, Skittles, Ice Tea, a cell phone, and no experience at all with physical violence or fight because he was a peaceful kid
so
not only was the kid not any threat to anyone before he shot him
he was dying after he shot him
so it multiplies the non threat
so for him to keep wanting to restrain a dead kid, he just murdered, while the kid was screaming for help
he wanted to restrain the kid, even in his made up story
Even the government gives a person a last meal before execution
so… whoa that is messed up
Fogens own written statement in 1st document dump – last page of statement.
As usual he refuses to take responsibility for his actions. He’s still hoping someone will help him get out of trouble.Well this time i don’t think it will work.
Have you all had a chance to discuss Judge Nelson’s recent ruling on another SYG hearing?
Link?
Never mind – found them.
Please post links, Rachael.
I’m curious.
Maybe the Professor can write a post/article about Judge Nelson rulings on James Fraleigh and Kishan Jones.
Click to access 12%2011%2012%20State’s%20Response%20to%20Defendant’s%20Motion%20to%20TAke%20Additional%20Deposition.pdf
Motion by the state
Ooooh, thank you!
Bernie, my good man, you have done it again!
Excellent response!
Uh oh… MOM’s stepped in it this time!!! The states reply amounts to the SP “Jumping Froggy” all over MOM’s silly motion. I mean, they didn’t merely attack, but they deflated, slapped back, trashed, dismissed and folded and spindled the defense motion. Turning it into “A prelude to a guilty”. Where the defenses best foot forward failed to stand.
MOM’s “trial by motion” strategy has clearly failed!
Ah, Lonnie you are definitely a New Yorker.
I haven’t heard that phrase, Getting Froggy with it in along time.
BDLR did this, he got Froggy with it big time.
Also I noted from the reply motion, BDLR showed a little of his cards.
Last page of 4.
An objective person would also want to know if only one
person was crying or screaming during the scuffle and
before the shooting.
Things that make O”mara go all Mr. Bill. OHHHH NOOOOOO
Walmart has reportedly run out of semi-automatic assault weapons in five states, including Pennsylvania, Kansas and Alabama, according to a Wednesday report from Bloomberg
What are we afraid of
What people will come at us in large numbers
Who are we afraid of
Just as GZ was afraid his home will be next he got an gun
But he wasn’t at home when he used it.
People are buying them up because they are afraid that new gun laws are coming down and they won’t be able to buy them.
Since the NRA are proxies for gun manufacturers and dealers, it benefits them to spreadh hysteria about imagined upcoming gun bans.
gblock, I collected another link under the header of “conspiracy” concering the NRA yesterday, you may be interested.
Sure they can buy them NOW. Wait until bullets cost $5 each and see how long people will keep them around! LOL!
Sent from my iPod
The article mostly confirms what I already knew. But if anyone reading this blog has any doubts that the NRA main purpose is to promote the gun industry, I hope they read the article.
I live in Canada at present, and although we do have gun crimes, it is nowhere near the level of the US. Personally if I had to live in the states, I would get my car and home bulletproofed and get bulletproof vests and get some guns too, or at least the bulletproof stuff. I think it is fear to be honest. Also if they are buying beforehand, it is not like the US govt cant still take their weapons and have records of who bought it.
Apparently bullet proof backpacks for kids are flying off the shelves.
Cant really blame people for wanting bulletproof gear in the US. I have lost count at all the senseless shootings.
To address several questions/comments above:
I think we all agree George Zimmerman is a practiced and skilled liar, and his version of events is BS on the whole, and filled with a host of individual falsehoods.
But when practiced and skilled liars tell tall tales, they weave in a certain amount of truth to make their stories seem credible. So EVERYTHING that comes out of GZ’s mouth is not a lie, especially things he would have reason to believe would make his mendacity easlly discovered.
Thus, I think he is telling the truth about the final position of his truck, since he has to imagine the police noted it’s position before ShelLie or Ostermutt moved it off TTL. So we can guess that this is where GZ was when he said “He’s running,” and got out of the truck. So he starts his foot pursuit of TM from TTL, just West of where TTL turns to the South and the East-West sidewalk begins.
He also has no reason to lie, (and no time to plan one) when he replies to NEN operator Sean’s question, “Which way is he running?” GZ’s answer is “Down towards the other entrance of the neighborhood.” That entrance is to the South, and of course, South is “down” on all out maps. So we can be quite sure Trayvon ran South on either TTL or the North-South ‘dog-walk’ sidewalk. Had Trayvon run straight over to RVC, GZ could not have concluded he was heading for the back entrance. At one point early in the game, I had guessed TM ran down TTL, but this doesn’t fit either the timing of things, or DeeDee’s account. So almost certainly Trayvon ran South down the sidewalk between the backyards. We don’t know how far he went, whether or where he might have hid, or whether he cut between the buildings to move away from the sidewalk over to one of the adjacent streets (TTL or RVC).
One of the first things I did when I started following this case was try to figure out how much distance GZ would have covered between the beginning of his foot pursuit, and the point where he stops running and we hear the infamous clicking sounds of the flashlight/door knock/gun rack, whatever. The NEN call indicates GZ was moving at pace for about 32 seconds.
I calculated a jogging pace at 3 yds./second, and a running pace for a non-athlete at 5-7 yds/second. At the time of the shooting, GZ was in good physical condition, having lost the fat in his face and gut seen in earlier photos, and having bulked up his upper body. I would guess he’d been working out regularly with his bouncer buddies, and possibly taking steroids, andro or some other muscle-building supplement. At the end of the 32 seconds he’s winded, but he recovers normal speech pretty quickly. Had be jogging leisurely for 32 seconds, I doubt he’d be that short of breath, but had he been running hard for 32 seconds he’d likely be really sucking air for awhile. So I’d guess his pace was in between, in the vicinity of 4 – 4.5 yds./second. That would have him covering between 128 – 144 yds.
The T is only 50-60 yards from where he would have left his truck, so I’m certain he got a lot farther than that. Had he gone down the sidewalk, he’d have gotten to about the midpoint between the T and Brandi Green’s home. Assuming he went over to RVC instead, he would have gotten South somewhere between 1/3 – 2/3 the length of the first building. That is to say, somewhere between W1&2’s front door and W19’s front door.
I believe he continued walking South after he stopped his jog/run until the end of the NEN call. That would put him south of the gap between the first and second buildings. As such, I believe he cut back to the sidewalk either at the gap between the second and third buildings, or at the bottom of the row of buildings, on the lower East-West leg of TTL. Such a path fits the time gap between the end of the NEN call and the beginning of the confrontation. Had GZ cut back to the sidewalk at the gap between the first two buildings (and assuming by ‘first’ we mean the one just South of the East-West sidewalk), the confrontation would almost certainly have occured earlier than it did.
As for Mr. Perryvine finding more detail, and therefore more credibility in W11’s account of a North to South movement before the physical struggle, I would point out two things.
1) This is not mutually exclusive with the South—>North pursuit as demonstrated in LLMPapa’s fine video. GZ could have followed TM that direction, not overtaking him until they reached the T, where the verbal confrontation would have broken out, and then shoving and jostling could have taken them back to the rear of JohnW6’s back door before they got down on the ground.
2) There are substantial reasons to suspect W11 is not being entirely truthful in her account. My guess is that Jeremy went out into their enclosed back porch when the shouting started, and he saw the whole thing. My guess is that W11 followed shortly thereafter and only retreated inside when the gun went off. Jeremy, however, lingered outside after the shot, leading to her cry of “Jeremy, get in here.” They both say they saw nothing, and Jeremy says he was in the kitchen (which is next to the FRONT door) when the shot was fired. I’m convinced they’re hiding something, though I can only guess at why.
Outstanding, whonooze! I think you have it! I agree with all you have written.
I will now go back and post it to MrPerryvine. Thanks!
He is a practiced, though I disagree skilled liar. He hasn’t gotten away with things because he lies well.
I think the steroid factor is interesting – would explain his “roid rage.”
You also said something that made a light go on in my head – saying how he looked like he was in decent shape, much thinner. I wonder if putting on weight is for show – like actors do for upcoming movie parts. If he looks fat and out of shape, perhaps it makes it more believable (to him et al.) that he was in no shape to chase down and/or fight off a lanky kid.
He may have gained so much weight because he is no longer working out.
IMO, it was the lack of Adderall. Adderall decreases appetite. Prescriptions are generally for 30 days and have to be renewed — no refills without a script. Remember, GZ quit his job and with it, his insurance. He is probably continuing to refill prescriptions for other things, but not the Adderall for his ADHD.
“Cercando Luce says:
December 20, 2012 at 10:52 am
He may have gained so much weight because he is no longer working out.”
True, and I’m not denying that at all. I also cannot ignore the fact that one can eat and gain a lot of weight due to stress/depression. Some people when they get stressed or depressed don’t eat and lose weight. They also stop working out and doing other activities of daily living.
I am not one of those people – and it shows – which is why I have not joined into the fray of people making fun of GZ for gaining weight. I understand how that goes only too well.
But that does not take away from the fact that by not working out and gaining weight would make him appear to be less buff and able to “fend” off an attacker, a lanky kid who “beat him within an inch of his life,” whereas a trimmer buff guy who looked more like a bouncer would not give that appearance.
In other words, while I am sure there is a factor of stress, depression and not being able to get out and do activities of daily living, I also wonder if some of it is for appearance.
@Rachael, if he gained weight for the purpose of making it look like he would have been too big to chase down Trayvon, he can forget it. he is not a Fat @$$ in his reenactment cameo which took place the very next day so, his being OBESE now is not going to help him now. I just can’t stand the sight of porky pig and, the sooner they lock his ass up the better!
W11 also said that she heard like 10 men outside and numerous other contradictions
She even one time says something about the defendant being pummeled and screaming but then says she has no idea if the defendant was screaming or if she could identify his voice
Witness 11 noticed everything after the chase and struggle happened from south to north toward the T, and the struggle could have been moving north to south during the actual scuffle
so I would not take much credibility to her testimony, and he testimony really does not change the north south issue
Because the defendant was crossing the top while on the phone as well, so that could explain it
or witness 11 is just hard of hearing
or witness 11 has a connection to the defendant
@Jun
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t Witness 11 the only one interivewed by the FBI of all the witnesses from the Retreat?
I dont know. I am only going by her testimony off of axiom amnesia. I have no clue if she has been investigated by the FBI
I’m pretty sure of it. But I will double check myself and post back on it either way.
Whonoze, you say, “I think we all agree George Zimmerman is a practiced and skilled liar,” —
I can’t agree. He is practiced. He is not skilled because he is not smart enough. Look at this particular lie:
“He put one hand on my nose and another hand on my mouth and he was leaning as hard as he could to try to suffocate me.”
Skilled?
“Because when he was hitting me I thought he had something in his hands”
Skilled?
“Then he said, ‘you got me’ or ‘you got it’ something like that [arms up in the air in the ‘I give up’ gesture] and he kinda fell or I pushed him…”
Skilled?
He’s a practiced and overconfident liar.
I don’t think he’s skilled.
He is only considered a skilled liar to his family and the Conservative Tinfoil Hat folks
but they are the same folks who considered lying about the passport and money not lies but the state’s fault for not asking the right questions
Absolutely Malisha. Practised maybe, over confident too… but clever? To me clever includes quick-witted, shrewd, cunning, street-wise in today´s language, but GZ´s most common answer is “I don´t know” or “I can´t remember”. And the absurdity of some of his stories is mind boggling and he has made just too many gaffes, put his foot in it too many times. His ever changing story, the very fact he talked to the police that night (stupid stupid stupid), and the prison calls in which he lowers his voice to talk about the monies and the multiple $9,999 bank transfers as if that would stop them hearing them… what an Idiot!
@ blushed brown
My bad I thought your LMAO was in response to Niggachinky.
Okie Dokie.
Moi aussi. S’il te plaît, pardonnes moi de t’avoir blesser.
Vous êtes pardonné.
Outstanding, LLMPapa!
Bravo!! clap clap clap Bravo!!!! clap clap clap!!!!!
One would also think that if TM put his full force down while having his hand over GZ’s mouth that the man would have some kind of mouth injury: bruising, a cut inside the lower lip, some swelling… soemthing. Yet nothing shows there but a blood drip from his nose.
Not to mention the blood would of been squirting out even more, producing more volume to be splattered all over clothing as Lonnie has pointed out earlier to me.
Yeah, and there should have been a streak of GZ’s blood from Trayvon’s hands down GZ’s jacket or shirt, leading to GZ’s right hip
Why w2ould The FriginFogen not take a good chomp at Trayvon Martins hand. Nothing – we are to believe that he just lay there like a potted palm.
Proof he was on top.
LOVE IT!!!!
I can’t believe it!
(Shhh…..don’t tell anyone, but Sir Isaac Newton himself has agreed to make a guest appearance in Part Two to explain gravity, and it’s effect on blood flow, to the genius who said he was on the bottom!)
Can’t wait!
I love when a guest host appears on a video! I can’t wait!
The only thing Sir Isaac Newton’s theory will not explain is, the gravity of the situation MOM and GZ face! :_D
Absolutely – bring on the pics!!!
Knowing O’Mara he will blow up the picture like he did with the Probable Cause Affadavit and save BDLR some bucks! That would be a hoot! Bring them Pics!
I dont feel blowing up the picture will do the defense good. It looks more fake.
Exactly why they should blow them pics up.
I’d argue all angles of the pictures
1) Why the foto seems photoshopped to me
2) The forensics
3) The later pics, which show his alleged death beating from the victim showed him totally fine on video 10 minutes later with no injuries apparent or lack thereof
Bravo Bravo! I’m throwing flowers and jewelry at you right now!
I love that still shot of O’Mara. His “circumflex” eyebrow beats all! He and Joe Lieberman could be in the look-alike contest for the “Grinch Who Stole Christmas”! 😈
Way to go Papa… way to go… as it stands thanks to GZ´s very precise demonstrations and the photo, his story just don´t fit with the forensics… no way!
What GZ never explains is while Trayvon was allegedly trying to smother him what was HE doing with HIS hands, head & mouth during his alleged struggle for life. Who would´t try to bite their aggressor… or at least open their mouth to breathe… either would have left saliva on Trayvon as well as blood.
Interesting that the only smudging is on the right side of GZ´s mouth more especially at the corner (on the left there isn´t any blood to smudge more indication about GZ´s position). As per GZ, Trayvon put his right hand over his mouth (fits if Trayvon was right handed) so his right palm was pressing just below the nose where there the most blood is but with no smudging, while the ends of Trayvon´s fingers would coincide with the smudging at the corner. Also, as per GZ´s demo Trayvon actually pinched his bloody nose with his left thumb and finger! That´s a lot of GZ´s DNA not on Trayvon´s hands considering he was in direct contact with GZ´s blood and other bodily fluids!
And why are you trying to pull Malisha in this? However I’ve never seen Malisha call herself a nigga or a chink.
@Logi,
Once again, I have no clue what you are talking about.
My response comment was for Malisha satire of “Double Nothing is Still Nothing”. The walls are still green.
I have no clue what you are talking about.
OK Now I have to weigh in.
One time when I was a secretary I had my desk next to a woman who chatted with me on and off as we worked together for maybe a year when a really funny event occurred. My boss used to come out of his office and get something or give me something and if I had done something he liked, he would give me a compliment, and I would respond, “Clever, these Chinese.” That’s a quote from (allegedly) Marco Polo. Anyway, around a year into our working together, some conversation made my boss speak to me about something Jewish or Hebrew, and I answered, and it became apparent that I was Jewish. My friend/neighbor at the next desk said to me, “You’re JEWISH?” I said, “yes.” She was astonished. I said, “why are you surprised?” She answered, “You kept saying you were Chinese!”
lmbo @ malisha
🙂
You never said clever like a chink so I don’t get the comparison.
Logi, there was no comparison. I just had an excuse to throw in one of my stories!
FINK!!! You’ve just ruined another keyboard!!! Coffee everywhere!!! You owe me!!! LOL
You and me both, Lonnie.
The keys on my keyboard stick so bad from Malisha making me laugh and spilling drinks on it, its ridiculous. , I tell ya
@Malisha:
“Logi, there was no comparison. I just had an excuse to throw in one of my stories!”
LOL – and it was a good story.
blushedbrown and Malisha: Read upthread. Jun considers the slurs a term of endearment.
@grahase
Thank you for not ignoring the slurs. I said I was more concerned with one more so than the other because this blog has been so hard on GZ”s Facebook handle etc. when I saw the nigger word (yes it’s nigger and I don’t care how it’s spelled) on this blog my heart sank. I am sure many others who pontificate here saw it too but ignored it. Youth is no excuse and Evidentily since it is still on Juns photo bucket is still used IMO.
It is a very hurtful word to me and my family. Just because JayZ and Nas are giving out passes for its use I still find it personally offensive and ugly. I do not feel I can tell an Asian man not to use a self hating term like chink to reference himself but considering the subject of this blog, it is disheartening to see nigger on it and then ignored by bloggers.
I was a kid back then
It is not meant to be racist
I dont know why
Just the word “nigga” or other racial slurs were used all the time, in a different way than it is meant to be
I guess hip hop culture, part of it anyways, uses a lot of racism in its culture
Anyways, what do you do if an black artist uses a racial slur in their art?
Do you find it insulting, or creative? If it is used comedically, do you find it insulting or funny?
For example I have a blaxploitation movie “Boss Nigger”, Nas had an album called “Nigger” and there are a range of artists such as Chinx Drugz, Chinky, Spictacular, etc
Also, why do you only find it offensive for racial slurs regarding Asians cool?
And not everyone gets a pass to use those words to be honest
I would not let someone I did not know use those words, unless they can kick my ass in some way, then I kind of have to take it at the time LOL
I dont use those words anymore but it is my photobucket LOL
Rap artists have no idea of the pain and humiliation suffered by Negroes. They know nothing of the struggle. Kids of all races call each other “nigga.” I have a Hispanic student who was called by the given name of a Black student. He became angry, saying “I don’t look like him.” and ranted for about 3 or 4 minutes. This is a great example of that underlying racism. I called him out on it in front of the class. I grew up in Little Rock, Arkansas, and attended Central High 10 years after it was desegregated. Use of the word “nigger” was often and venomous. After graduation, my mother told me of the white guy (captain of the football team) that had come to my house. Oh Lord! Don’t get me started.
Jun – I am much older than you are. I have many friends and acquaintances of almost every ethnic background. If something is considered a slur, one should respect that and refrain from its use. It is called respect and civility. Words hurt sometimes. One should use their sense of consideration of others when communicating. I lived in Vancouver for many years and certainly never, ever think of calling any of my friends chinks or niggas. You know, some people will laugh about it only because they do not want to make a fuss or do not want friends to see that those words hurt. It is just disappointing to see, now that you are older and wiser, you have not changed your terms of endearment. Especially when commenting on a blog such as this.
Satire, pardon
@blushed brown
Statir? How is using the word Nigger in a handle satire? No wit involved in that word sorry. You have a nice evening as well,
My comment was in regard to Malisha’s satire about Green walls. I have no idea what you are talking about.
BlushedB, the comments sometimes get shuffled like playing cards; I don’t understand it because it’s electronics and I’m female. But I’m glad you got a laugh out of the green walls.
I can’t understand them either. I’m female also. But I had a good laugh at the Double Nothing still means Nothing! Looking at the Green Walls. Freakin Hilarious. 😆
More concerned with the nigga part.
Why — both are offensive and inappropriate by any standard. Certainly not satirical.
I’m laughing at my DAMN-self after reading my last comment.
Here’s what Erwin’s testimony about what he heard in the room between Serino and Martin would be: inadmissible double hearsay offered for the truth of something that the testator has no expertise in determining.
The tape recording of the screams are played by Serino and heard by Martin.
Martin has no expertise in identifying voices on tape when they are not normal speech with normal inflection such as he is used to hearing, such as on the phone in normal conversation.
Martin is also in shock and not in any position to give opinions on technical questions.
Martin is also expected to react to the sounds of screams in an emotional way that would probably be invalid even if he WERE an expert (a surgeon is not supposed to operate on his own family member even if he is competent and qualified).
Serino did not record the session with Martin, which was a big big BIIIIIIG mistake, especially since he COULD have recorded it.
There are already more than one paraphrased version of what happened. One says Martin said the scream was not Trayvon at first, but with earphones and a better quality recording, said the scream WAS Trayvon; the other says Serino asked if Martin was “sure” about the scream and Martin said no. But of course nobody COULD be. One reason Robert Zimmerman Sr. is not credible is that he says it was “absolutely” his son screaming. Not at all credible.
So then we have Erwin, who is not an expert on hearing naked voices (he uses a computer and a program to analyze voice stress) over-hearing a conversation between two OTHER people and that conversation itself proves NOTHING. So his second-hand rendition of it proves NOTHING. Double nothing is still NOTHING.
Dismissed. Erwin, you may go now. The walls are still green.
Absolutely 100% LOL
Besides
The only people attesting that it is the defendant (it obviously is not the defendant), are people the defendant knows or is family, hence their testimony is highly biased and proven so, because their testimony does not even match their stories they have given the police, and it is obvious they are just lying for the sake of lying, and likely will get a perjury and obstruction charge when trial arrives
I would rather listen with my own ears and listen to the on scene witnesses because all of them with the exception of witness 6 and 11, have attributed the screaming to the person who was shot, and I believe 4 of the on scene witnesses said it sounded like a kid. Witness 6 gave way too many versions to be found credible, and witness 11 also gave way too many stories to be found credible, and her 911 recording says it all, because even the defendant is heard on the phone call
I think any objective juror listening to the call will conclude it is a kid screaming, and the only kid of the two is the victim, and not the defendant, when also adding other evidence to it and using their own ears
@jun
Who or what is a “niggachinky”?
I made that photobucket when I was younger
It was common during my youth that the word “nigga” was used differently than what the racial slur is
It prolly sounds really racist but it was common for some to use the word “nigga” and other racial slurs as a term of endearment
I was known as “Asian Nigga”, “Chinese Nigga”, or “That Nigga’s Chinky”
For example, someone may come up to me and say “What up, my nigga” and it means, what is going on in your life, my friend…
I thought about the movie Rush Hour, but didn’t Jackie cause a fight by asking that? 🙂
Jun – if I am not mistaken, Joe Oliver also said the slur was a term of endearment. Obviously, it is not. In fact, it is not acceptable by any standard. Yet, when, words such as these are used on the blog with racist commenters, people call them disgusting — AND Racist. You actually didnt stop your friends from calling you that:
Chink (also chinki, chinky, chinkie) is an English ethnic slur referring mainly to a person of Chinese ethnicity but sometimes generalized to refer to any person of East Asian descent. Use of the term is broadly considered offensive and has garnered a great deal of media attention.
Nigga is a word which evolved from the derogative term “nigger”. Tupac best defined the distinction between the two.
NIGGER- a black man with a slavery chain around his neck.
NIGGA- a black man with a gold chain on his neck.
Shame on you for allowing it!
grahase – actually, Joe Olliver said, “There are a lot of parts of this country where people proudly call themselves coon-asses, Louisiana, in particular”
followed by – ““Goon, I’ve been informed by my 17-year-old daughter that, among her peers, that’s a term of endearment.”
Anyway, it is similar to what Jun is saying about nigga – which depending on how it is used, is not the same as the other word.
Coonass is a controversial term in the Cajun lexicon. To some Cajuns it is regarded as the supreme ethnic slur, meaning Ignorant, backwards Cajun”; to others the term is a badge of pride, much like the word Chicano is for Mexican Americans. In South Louisiana, for example, one can often see bumper stickers reading “Warning — Coonass on Board!” or “Registered Coonass” (both of which generally depict a raccoon’s backside). The word’s origin is unclear: folk etymology claims that coonass dates from World War II, when Cajun GIs serving in France were derided by native French speakers as conasse, meaning “dirty whore” or “idiot.” Non-French-speaking American GIs overheard the expression, converted itto the English “coonass,” and introduced the term back in the United States. There it soon caught on as a derisive term among non-Cajuns, who encountered many Cajuns in Gulf Coast oilfields.
But then folklorist Barry Jean Ancelet rejects this theory, however, calling it “shaky linguistics at best.” He suggests that the word originated in South Louisiana, and that it derived from the belief that Cajuns frequently ate raccoons. He also proposes that the term contains a negative racial connotation: namely, that Cajuns were”beneath” or “under” blacks (or coons, as blacks were often called by racists). Despite efforts by Cajun activists like James Domengeaux and Warren A. Perrin to stamp out the term’s use, coonass continues to circulate in South Louisiana and beyond. Its acceptability among the general public, however, tends to vary according to circumstances, and often depends on who says it and with what intention. Cajuns who dislike the term have been known to correct well-meaning outsiders who use the epithet. The earliest known printed occurrence of coonass dates to 1954, when it appeared in Jerry Robertson’s Oil Slang, a collection of oilfield jargon.
“From my experience, Cajuns will differ on whether the term is offensive. I know most of the older generation do find it offensive, and it is probably because they are familiar with the origin. I, as with most people regarding offensive words, feel that it depends on who is saying it and the context of its use. Basically, if you call me a coonass, you’d better be a close friend.”
Here is some more about the origin of that word:
http://www.cajunbonsai.com/coonasspage.htm
Anyway, what I’m saying is with regard to Jun saying nigga when used by her friends was a term of endearment, it is the same as the article above saying “Basically, if you call me a coonass, you’d better be a close friend.”
However, regardless of coon, goon or punk (and I heard coon), GZ was NOT using it as a term of endearment. What a bizarre thing to say – these azzles, they always get away, running and following carrying a concealed weapon, followed by a term of endearment? What a fool he is.
I understand what you are saying though and I do agree with you. My son has friends and they greet each other with greetings similar to what Jun said and I just cringe and tell them they can’t say that in my house, even if they don’t think it
it means what it sure as heck sounds like to me.
But again, saying effin *oons under your breath as you are running after an azzhle that always gets away – there is no mistake that that is NOT endearment. Puhleezeeeeeeee
In the black community “nigga” is often used, it can be used as an endearment or as a insult its all depending on how you use the word. For the most part, young people like Trayvon don’t call each other nigga anymore the term now is “fool”. So instead of saying “what”s up my nigga.” They will say now ” “what they do fool.” This is how I knew X was lying from he start Trayvon would not speak like that being from Miami we just don’t say Homie actually we never did.
LMAO !
@blushed brown.
Not funny when it’s on the treehouse though?
This is not the Treehouse, Logi.
Satire is welcome here, and Malisha is very good at it.
Have a nice evening.
Satire, no. Offensive, yes!
@Grahase,
I explained this yesterday, my comment was for MALISHA Satire about Double Nothing = Still Nothing. The walls are green!.
Not whatever else is going on with Jun. My reply comment got under something between Jun & Logi. I had no idea what was going on and I explained that to Logi. I will not explain it anymore.
After saying it was GZ, RZ Sr was asked if he had ever heard GZ scream like that and he said yes, when he was a teenager. There was only one teenager there that night.
I think it is very telling he threw that part in. Why would he think it was important to say that? I mean, other than the obvious.
There is NO reason – other than he knew dang well it was Trayvon.
I’m trying to understand something. O’Mara wants a corroborating hearsay witness to a hearsay witness. When did Serino play the tape for Tracy — before or after GZ’s voice stress test? Because if it was before the tech conducted the stress test, he could have been prejudiced in the questions he developed to ask GZ, already believing it was GZ was crying for help.
Malisha lmao!!!!!! Lets call him mr green machine!!!!
Mr. Green Machine:
I suggest Erwin get a polygraph about what he heard from Tracy Martin and Serino in that room that day. It’s a well known but inadmissible forensic test designed to…
Considering the evidence, we can even conclude that not only did the defendant instigate the event by targeting and aggravated stalking the victim, once the victim first tried to get away and the defendant caught up, the defendant also confronted the victim and attacked first, and even then all Trayvon did was ask the defendant why he kept stalking or following him, and then the defendant attacked the victim. In witness 18’s interview with ABC, she also points to the defendant as the aggressor and the confronter and the person threatening the other party. She also points to the young boy as the one as the victim. Now add that with the forensic evidence and the testimony with witness 8, witness 1, witness 2, witness 3, witness Mary Cutcher an her roomate, and the witness 11 phone call, it is a good conclusion.
Fogen also told Singleton:
1. That the EMTs told him his nose was broken; and
2. That the EMTs told him he did not need to go to the hospital.
He said HE didn’t know if he needed to go to the hospital or not; the EMTs told him he didn’t need to go.
Right. And he said a lot things thinking that the NEN call wasn’t recorded. Good thing it was. EMTs telling him not to go? Definitely an odor about that one.
Forgen is so full it. A paramedic will not tell a patient he/she does not need to go the hospital, especially when there is a head injury. Paramedics are obligated to transport a patient, unless they refuse to go. In that case, they have to sign a waiver.
When head injuries are involved, they are even more obligated to take the patient because they may have a concussion or brain injury, etc. which are detected by medical doctors and technology. If the patient refuses, they must provide a competency test to make sure the patient is not incoherent/competent to make decisions and sign a waiver.
I worked in the ER for years. there was one patient who came in by ambulance because she didnt have a ride and needed to be seen because she hit toe. The paramedics were highly upset but they had to. Additionally, paramedics are not doctor’s so they can not provide medical advice and determine whether or not a person has a certain illness or injury. Forgen was hiding something that is why he did not want to go the hospital.
Agree.
Yes, yet another lie that is a match with him saying that the dispatcher told him to go find an address!
But lies come easy to Fogen!!! He’ll soon be patrolling an 8 by 12!
IKR!
@Lonnie Starr
Epic comment. Voldemort will soon have his dream of policing the criminals in prison and will be doing random shakedowns looking for contraband like drugs and shanks.
I would love to be a fly on the wall when that happens! Bubba and company wont take to kindly to him trying to be a wanna be cop…:-)
Lonnie,
is that the size of a US prison cell? If so are they really standardized in the US?
Maybe yes, maybe no, but it’s standard jargon used to describe prison cells in newspaper literature.
@ Leander22
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/vtour/index.html
EMTs don’t diagnose just as we nurses don’t diagnose, we only report our findings there is no way of telling if his nose was broken without an X-ray. An EMT will never tell you that you don’t need to go to the hospital, they give you a choice would you like to go to the hospital or not? X chosen not to go to the hospital & we all know why. If he liked to prove us wrong why don’t he us go now and get an X-ray.
And to follow Malisha and Tee, he didn’t tell the EMTs about having his head slammed. That story had not yet occurred to him. Therefore, EMTs did not require him to be checked in hospital for subdural hematoma or other head trauma.
Aren’t there certain signs of head injury that paramedics commonly check for, like whether the pupils are unequal or not reactive? GZ’s must have been OK.
@ Cercando Luce – Just for the record, the EMTs did report: “Pt states he was assaulted and his head was struck on the pavement.” (May 17, 2012 evidence release, page 183 of 184.)
You may be correct that the killer hadn’t come up with his head-being-“slammed”-repeatedly story yet. But, then again, it’s possible that the EMTs abbreviated what the killer told them, for purposes of the concise EMT report. (I haven’t read the EMTs’ depositions; perhaps there’s more clarity there.)
And don’t we think it’s weird that the videos that normally monitor the RTL neighborhood were NOT IN SERVICE that night? I mean, here’s Fogen all worried to death because [dramatic break in voice] his wifey was scared because she witnessed a crime, and there are folks invadig his neighborhood including, to quote Taaffe, “Trayvon-like dudes with their pants down,” and the videos do not work? And Fogen has Kent Taylor’s phone number in his cell phone down at the management office that runs the videos, and he doesn’t call Kent and say, “Hey Kent there’s been a lot of break-ins in my neighborhood and it’s real suspicious that the video’s don’t work…”
Hmmm?
Don’t we think that’s weird? That Fogen doesn’t get that straightened out when he’s the “coordinator” of the “Neighborhood Watch” and then on 2/26/2012 after killing a kid he tells Singleton that the videos don’t work? Ain’t that a bit weird?
What’s weird is that GZ would know that the videos at the gates were not operating. I wonder when they stopped? Around 2/2/12? I wonder if he also knew that the clubhouse vids were 20 minutes off?
I thought that it was also strange that gz knew the surveillance cameras were not operating at the gate. I was also surprised that if this had been true for some time that he would have insisted earlier that they be repaired.
Of course he should have been concerned, unless not having them operational served him a benefit. The operation of the gate videos is a HOA, not a NW responsibility. For GZ to have knowledge of cameras not working would mean that knowledge had to have come from Leland Management who represents the HOA.
Excellent points Malisha.
I wonder if he had keys to the clubhouse?
In the video by Marinade Dave (link posted somewhere below) he had a key and he said all residents did.
Thanks Rachael.
I just finished watching it.
My first thought when hearing Taaffe describe alternate routes, and light events, were that GZ and company are watching and scouring the internet for information that we have put together.
I think one of those sites besides this one being viewed by GZ and Company is BccList.
Some of the posters there were interviewed for an article written by Frances Robles IIRC.
IIRC, Whonoze, Tchcopi was also interviewed.
They has broken down those light events to the second.
Most definitely that site is on their watchlist.
It is a bit weird, but IDK. I lived in an apartment once where there was a security camera pointed at the elevator. We all knew it was non-operational. It was a camera, no monitor. It was just there for looks. The apartment complex could not “afford” monitors. Everyone knew about it.
I guess what I am saying is, maybe they had been out for some time and maybe everyone was aware of it, and slumlords, being what they are these days, maybe just couldn’t afford or be bothered with fixing them.
What would be more telling is if others were asked if they were aware of this. Again, it might have been common knowledge, in which case, no, not weird, just cheap lazy management.
But if this was something only GZ knew, then yes, that makes it weird. And convenient.
It seems more convenient than weird, considering that the other three camera were working and it was a separate company, responsible to the HOA that was responsible for the cameras. Who knows, perhaps GZ asked that they be disabled so that MO or other cohorts could get in or out undetected?
@Lonnie,
And another thing that has been bugging me. Who the hell in the FDLE said that there was no evidentiary evidence on the clubhouse videos? Looking at all the work composed by everyone here and others and especially our fellow bloggers on BCCLIST, they have found PLENTY of good evidence on those videos. It took weeks, months even to put all those analysis together. If Tchcopi, Whonoze, Amsterdam, were let loose in the FBI lab using their toys, PFFFFt, we would had this shitake wrapped up months ago.
I feel better now.
Now I must get out of the blogsphere, do some cooking.
Be back later 🙂
I agree.
Agree with the cooking or the other? (LOL)
I can’t see that the prosecution has to endorse either scenario (unless there is specific evidence that proves one or the other–or something else). Those triviial injuries only prove that the killers face came into sudden contact with something hard. They don’t amount to “grievous bodily harm” and they don’t prove that the killer stood in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm.
They also do not prove Trayvon Martin even HURT Fogen, even in self (Trayvon) defense.
I have been saying for a while, I believe Fogenhats ran into a tree branch and staged his back of head injuries or maybe it is more clutz activity from the defendant Fogenhats
Either way, the simple fact the defendant instigated the whole turn of events and attacked first, is the true story so…
add that to the fact, he held malice toward the victim, took away all of the victim’s liberty, and then killed him while the victim screamed, and then pinned the kid facedown asphyxiating the victim, and was seen molesting the kid’s body with his hands rubbing all over, makes the killing depraved
the victim was also unarmed and did not attack at all
Ya think that the jury’s decision in the Dooley case has O’Mara scared? That jury placed more emphasis on what made the confrontation possible than the actual confrontation. If not but for the fact that GZ left his vehicle and ran behind Trayvon, the two would not have come into physical contact.
Xena wrote:
Ya think that the jury’s decision in the Dooley case has O’Mara scared?
I have seen you post about this case, and must make a note to look into it further.
Xena wrote:
That jury placed more emphasis on what made the confrontation possible than the actual confrontation.
If I was BDLR, I would put all that context front and center. Closing with the 911 call with the screams of help by Trayvon followed by the gunshot.
Xena wrote:
If not but for the fact that GZ left his vehicle and ran behind Trayvon, the two would not have come into physical contact.
And that’s why a jury is going to find him guilty.
Re: The Dooley case. When I heard witness testimony at trial, even that of the daughter who watched her dad die, it was very, very interesting. They all said that Dooley turned to walk back to his house when the victim grabbed his shoulders, turning him around. Sounds like the victim was the aggressor, right? That’s not the way the jury saw it.
Anytime a person is carrying a gun, they should seek to avoid confrontation; not run to initiate it like Dooley and GZ did.
Omara may not care anymore because he did say the jury will think whatever they think
but Omara may try dirty tricks for jury selection just based on his prevalent actions as far in this case
@ Xena:
“Anytime a person is carrying a gun, they should seek to avoid confrontation; not run to initiate it like Dooley and GZ did.”
But Xena, GZ didn’t remember he had “the” gun with him that night. Remember? He even said so himself.
wink wink.
LOL! Yeah. Wasn’t it on Hannity where he said he took his gun everywhere with him other than work? BDLR is going to have fun with that.
People with guns don’t cry for help, they have guns so they can help themselves.
HahahahohohohahahahaLOL, that’s precious “He said so himself!”
Well, this will be the last time his lies will be able to bring down his world. After this trial is over he’ll be forgotten and his words/lies or anything else about him will be meaningless.
Once a person is proven to lie, in a court of law yet, where even his own oath and the prospect of having to tell his story to jurors, with him being the only witness to the most critical events, does not deter him from telling blatant, baldfaced lies. His word can be given no weight at all on matters that his word alone, provide self serving cover to.
Jurors will have to dismiss, just as we have been forced to, all self serving statements made by GZ, as if they didn’t exist.
For example, “He’s coming towards me now!” we do not know for a fact that TM is really coming towards him right then. “You got a problem homie?”, we do not know and cannot believe that TM said that. GZ’s word is now no longer reason enough to believe it.
On and on, where we have only GZ’s word on self serving material, we must discount that it ever happened as GZ states that it did. His word is totally and completely worthless, because we know there is nothing at all to stop him from telling us things that are not true.
That’s a hell of a position to be in, and facing 2nd degree murder charges. It’s worse yet to realize that he voluntarily did this to himself, simply for the sake of hiding his money? No, because any fool would know that the fact of the funds would soon out on it’s own. So the only real mission that could have been the cause of this lying, was to further some plan to flee justice.
Exactly! If not but for the fact that the court ordered the GPS ankle bracelet, IMO, GZ would have fled. He would have jeopardized his parents house leaving them to face the bail bondsman.
When O’Mara filed the first motion to modify terms of bail, Judge Lester told him that if he could coordinate with the techs on the GPS, to file another motion. So, we have a clue of GZ’s plans because when O’Mara filed again, it was to have the GPS removed.
GZ’s current condition presents 2 problems for him. If he could get out of Seminole county, chances are that the GPS would not track him, but then he has the problem of being financially broke. So, as we saw, he engaged two events — selling his autograph and effectively, asking for the removal of all his bail conditions. Both failed.
@Lonnie Starr
I am also convinced he was planning to flee. Just like you say he is the only witness to the most critical aspects of the incident. He knows he can’t win the case and was going to take that $200 grand and take off to another country. That part was completely obvious when it was discovered he had a second passport that he neglected to tell the court about. His plan to flee may have been temporarily foiled by his own incompetence by talking about the hidden money over the jail phone. The chances of him fleeing are much lower since he does not have money to survive on the run, but I would not rule it out.
I think the nose pic will come in and the head pic will not.
A police officer took the face pic (for whatever reason) and will testify, swear-in and all that jazz. Picture takin’ wasn’t mentioned in the initial narrative, odd. No mention of showin’ it around to witnesses, either. But, anyway.
Nose pic is dripping with “loose crime scene”. No mention of another person on scene by either of the responding officers. I don’t think their addendums mention it either. Whatever.
When did civilian pic guy snap this shot?
Back of head shot won’t make it to the jury. It is really pretty “tainted”. Horrid for both SPD and GZ.
Face shot still has the same “intense struggle” shortcomings. The blood flow didn’t happen on his back. Mouth/nose covering didn’t happen.
He had the right to remain silent.
How much lying can a jury take……?
Am I the only one who would continue to take pictures of my healing process? You know, the next days when the black and blue and blood shot eyes really show up? Then the green and yellows.
Maybe I AM odd….LOL
I don’t believe that Martin hit Voldemort either. He had a cellphone in one hand and a bag in the other hand. He may have dropped one or both items during the struggle, but that is all it was, just a struggle. I will not deny that it would have been possible for Martin to possibly elbow Voldemort’s face doing that damage. During a struggle, you would be trying to pull away or hit the attacker to break free.
The prosecution has two options in my opinion:
A) Claim that Voldemort self-inflicted the wounds either intentionally or by running into something during the chase.
B) Claim that Martin inflicted the wounds in self-defense trying to break free from his attacker.
I don’t really think the prosecution has to say anything about the “injuries” on Fogen. His story is not consistent with the injuries and he has not proven anything, even assuming the injuries, that validates or corroborates his story. NOTHING he said that is either credible or consistent with the physical evidence (including all the questionable photographs) leads to a conclusion that he killed in self-defense. On the other hand, actions that he took that can be proven by physical evidence showed killing with depraved mind and malice. He does not have any credible defense.
Malisha I agree except that it should pointed out that trayvon did not deliver a Punch to fogens nose. The bloody photo senerio
Does not prove trayvon delivered a punch to the tip of his nose,
The two Dots were the cause of the blood that trickled from the tip down his lips– look at the evidence nothing fits to make those Dots except the tweezers ,those were not trayvons and the small
Gash!! ?? Caused by a punch. Prove it defence!
The knuckle heads cover up. The photos the night of the
Murder in the second degree does not prove trayvon threw a punch. Fogens Dot-Dot-Gash theory is morse code, you know
He likes to talk in code. What a fool omara.
May I just change the subject a bit Just wanted to say fogen and Omara are being sued 27000.00 dollars by bodyguard company for lack of payment.Also i’m old but I see kids talking on cell phones they are hands free so I assume the phones are in their pocket.I should’ve asked my son about this.
For a long time, I’ve been under the impression that Trayvon was probably talking hands-free, but I don’t remember what first gave me that impression. The dropped phone might suggest otherwise, so he might have been holding the phone in his hand at least during the last call he received from DeeDee.
That idea would probably come from the “ear buds” present. I don’t know much about them, I’d have to suppose they had a mic somewhere on them. His phone, in that case, would be in his pocket, at least until he started to run in the rain. My guess is he’d want to hold onto the phone while running, since it could slip out of the pocket with bouncing around. Or, maybe it’s just a “comfort” move, to have something to hold onto, kinda like a security blanket or charm or talisman.
That’s an interesting point Dennis, if you allow me to take a different emphasis.
But strictly does not defense suggest in this context too, that Trayvon is some kind of litterbug, you know a burglary suspect turned killer can easily be that too? No? The problem is, if he was lurking behind the bushes as Fogen states to attack him, isn’t that were he would have decided to drop the bag and put can and sweets into his pocket? Why did he drop the bag on dog walk?
just asking? But again it can only be explained that once you start criminalizing anyone, nothing that will not stick in some minds. burglar, litterbug, killer.
Right, how could we have missed it? Litter bugging is a “Gateway” activity to violently murderous viciousness. We need to get a handle on litter bugs now!!! :_D
Trina, I would think the enhanced, carefully analyzed 911 tape from “Jeremy get UP HERE!” will answer a lot of questions. Now that I know there are examples of the recorded voice of Trayvon Martin available I believe that tape will tell a story that makes the prosecution feel very confident. And it will make the defense argument go from “Trayvon was a thug who attacked Fogen to kill him for no reason other than inherent badness and the harvest of planted corn” to “Trayvon was a thug who needed killing anyway.”
And then we will see the real “defense” come blaring through. It will, of course, be “a good offense” in the sense that it will be offensive beyond description.
It also won’t work in a court of law.
I’m curious to know if any of the ear witnesses heard a verbal exchange first, whining second, silence third for a few to several seconds then death defying screams of help fourth, gunshot fifth….does that make sense to anyone?
I’m inclined to say that they must have heard it, because it was loud enough for the phone to pick it up. Of course, in the confusion, they may have focused on other things and not remembered these sounds.
There are witnesses having seen a person in a red shirt ALONE whining, THEN heard a gunshot shortly after. This leads me to believe that regardless to what Fogen claims Trayvon did, he was able to remove himself from harms way. Not once in any of his statements did he say Trayvon got up, then did the stanky leg for 5 seconds before mounting him again. Also, not one witness said there was blood all over his face & head that night…not one!!
When Singleton is interviewing Fogen for the first interview right after the incident, he says that AFTER he shot Trayvon Martin and while he was on top of him checking his hands, someone came out and Fogen said to him the police were already coming, and that he should come and help restrain Trayvon because he was still moving, but the guy did not come over. He also told Singleton he knew EVERYONE in the neighborhood, “all the kids, all the adults.” And yet not a single witness says that Fogen said that to him after Trayvon was shot. AND Fogen doesn’t identify that person for the police, at any time.
Your point is very important, Malisha. First, it shows how George lied about events, secondly, it shows that George did NOT know all the residents.
I concur with YAHTC. Very good point.
I have looked at every piece of discovery, looking for that particular statement, ” Help me restrain this guy”. To date, I haven’t found it on any of the witness statements that he said that to any of them.
If anyone has seen a record of it by any of the witnesses, I would like to see it.
Fogen also says, “I guess he was upset that I called the police.”
Interesting. Presumes Trayvon knew Fogen had called the police. HE told that to Singleton; yet later on, he says that “an investigaor” told HIM that Trayvon knew he had called the police. How would any investigator know what Trayvon knew?
Twice, Fogen tells Singleton that Trayvon’s words were “you got a problem homie?” First time he said that, he added “f*cking” and second time, unadorned “problem.”
“Grabbed me by the front of the head.” Screamed “help me probably 50 times.” Can’t remember who it was who saw him from the patio. Knows all the residents.
Guess Geezy lied about knowing all the residents.
No investigator would know what Trayvon knew.
Yet, GZ knew who was responsible for the cctv’s and the videos for RATL. He knew, not just the full name of the company, he knew their address, had their phone number stored on his phone and he knew the full name of the person to call.
Just the kind of information you’d expect a NW captain to have, so he was rather fastidious about his mission.
But, beyond digging out and preserving that arcane information in his memory, he wants us to believe he didn’t know the name of the main street in RATL, the very one that runs from the main gate to the rear gate he’s so interested in. It just proves that he is lying again.
This: “Fogen also says, “I guess he was upset that I called the police.”” Is an obvious lie!!!
——————–
There is absolutely no way that TM could have known that GZ was talking to the police, if he even knew GZ was on the phone at all.
While “hand to the ear” stances, give away that a phone may be in use, it in no way indicates who is being called. In fact, you’d expect that if someone were calling the police, they’d identify themselves at their very first opportunity, as would exist when people approach each other.
Most likely, if someone following you for no discernible reason, and you perceive that they are on the phone, you’re likely to think they’re communicating with cohorts, meaning you’ve got to be extra careful about where you flee to.
But, I doubt TM could tell that GZ was on the phone in his truck, and TM isn’t nearby when GZ exits his truck, up until the NeN call ends. So, GZ is merely interjecting an obviously self serving lie, to explain the fearful conduct he incited.
Like I said before, it is frightening enough that while at the mail shed, GZ maneuvered his truck in the rain and directed his headlights directly at TM in the mail shed, that would cause anyone serious concern, considering that the vehicle then took up a position nearby.
A vehicle might come by, stop and maneuver a u-turn or k-turn, but then continue on it’s way. A vehicle that bathes you in it’s headlights while maneuvering to a viewing position and remains in the area with no apparent destination, has to be a cause for serious concern. GZ’s first strike plan was to induce offensive behavior by scaring TM. He had probably hoped that TM would either come pound on his truck, or flee. TM fled. Only an armed person would even think of approaching his truck, and perhaps not even then.
Maybe GZ did know Trayvon was aware he had called the police simply because he, GZ, told Trayvon that to try to scare him into submission.
whonooze & LLMPapa (and others)……Could the timing work out with this scenario? :
.
George’s PATH–
l. George tells dispatcher, “He ran” and immediately gives chase ON THE T because he thinks he can intercept Trayvon on RVC at end of T.
2. When George does not see Trayvon at RVC, he turns right (south) toward the back gate. George turns right to go west between the first and second building [from the T]
3. When George meets up with Trayvon upon George’s arrival at the backyard area, George chases Trayvon north.
.
Trayvon’s PATH–
l. Trayvon walks TTL from the mailboxes to the north side of George’s vehicle.
2. At that point Trayvon runs north between the buildings to RVC.
3. Trayvon arrives at the cut between the buildings that goes to the T.
4. Trayvon goes between those buildings to the dogwalk.
5. Trayvon continues south on the dogwalk to the end of the first building where the two of them meet up.
.
.
1. Witness 2 says she saw 2 figures (later she says 1) running past her kitchen window toward the T. [just a blur, but that is enough–a nearsighted person can see that much without glasses]
2. If Trayvon cuts west followed by George, that would put them at the side of Witness 11’s house where Witness 11 first heard the voices before they bent around going south passed the back of her townhouse.
At 7:12:11, GZ says “He ran” but the sound of GZ running doesn’t stop until 7:12:15. IMO, GZ had gotten no further than the “T” when saying that. Serino told GZ that Trayvon could not have made it home in that time.
I agree — he expected to see Trayvon heading for the back gate, but did not see him. In his re-enactment, GZ says that he tried getting his flashlight to work while he was at the “T.” In his interview with Serino, he said that he didn’t want to walk back from RVC without his flashlight working. That questions if GZ was at the T or at RVC when we hear the banging at about 7:12:30.
GZ turned on his key chain flashlight at some point, left it on, and dropped it close to the “T.” He does not mention his key chain flashlight in any of his statements.
If “he ran” indicates that GZ lost Trayvon, then “I don’t know where this kid is” at 7:13:10 indicates that GZ has changed his location/path. He hears Trayvon talking on his cell phone, and at 7:13:22, wants the cops to call him for his location, thereby indicating that he has no plan of returning to his truck and remaining where he was parked.
LLMPapa and Whonoze are excellent at putting times and distances together so I suspect they will present something as to how far GZ could have ran from 7:11:42 until 7:12:11.
Thanks for responding, Xena.
I was thinking that AFTER gz initial run that he kept walking to RVC and turned right toward the back gate.
IMO, he turned right, but that took him down RVC to the south end of the T where he cut off Trayvon. Have you watched Dave’s video of the walk-through? It really helps in showing that area.
“IMO, he turned right, but that took him down RVC to the south end of the T where he cut off Trayvon. Have you watched Dave’s video of the walk-through? It really helps in showing that area.”
.
I agree, Xena, and that is what I wrote next to #2 and #3 under “George’s Path” in my comment above.
Remember in GZ’s re-enactment were he swats saying he was trying to fight Trayvon off? Off from doing what, he doesn’t say. Those swats were also very low to be fighting off a person who is taller. But, I tend to look for some semblance of truth in GZ’s statements, so taking his LOW swats as true, he must have been beating bushes to get to Trayvon.
Xena, I was thinking that gz was attributing to himself what Trayvon was doing. That is, as Trayvon was trying to get away from gz, he was trying to get George off of him by those side motions.
As in, “Get off, get off”? That’s a possibility, but those swats are still pretty low — more like pushing bushes out of the way. Notice too that GZ was walking as he was swatting. If a man was just hit in the nose, and he was trying to fend off his attacker (without saying what his attacker was doing), IMO, he would stand flat-foot when fending off — not walk and certainly not walk in a manner to stumble and fall.
I agree with you, Xena.
Here is MrPerryvine’s comment. Remember he is the one I quoted to articles back that thought everyone here was doing a great job and that he needed time to think about the various scenarios put forth (by him, LLMPapa’s scenario video, etc.)—
.
“Hi YAHTC! I had time to check out the dominant narrative on the other vine favored by LLMpapa and most of the gang over there which is that Trayvon and Zimmie encountered each other somewhere further south of where the body was found, and proceeded northward from there away from Tayvon’s destination because he had been intercepted by Zimmie before he reached the lady’s house he was staying at. So George had caused Trayvon to change direction and chased Trayvon back up the dogwalk.
“I see their basic evidence of this is the witness #1 who saw elbows south of her place, and witness #2 who saw 2 folks south of her place running northward, and the fact that Trayvon’s phone and Zimmie’s flashlight were both found south of the body, and Dee Dee’s mentioning that Trayvon had told her he was “almost at his Daddy’s house”.
“YAHTC; I remember we examined and debated this option before w/Crusty and the gang in our conversation with them, and found it to have evidence in it’s favor too; I even remember arguing it’s merits to Crusty when I told him if I had a gun and he was 17, I could either walk him or chase him at gunpoint back up to the T and all the way back to 7-11 if I wanted to. So yes, I see merit in Pappa’s narrative of the struggle travelling north up the stem of the T. I see merit in it, and have argued it testing in out before. But back then I did not settle on it as the best narrative, because of witness 11, whose directional narrative made the most sense, and fit the most facts to me. I sided with her because:
“(1)- But, by looking at the map and putting myself in Trayvons position walking from the clubhouse which is slightly north of George and his car, to duck Zimmie’s car I would have taken the first cut-through nearest me (the north one) and gained access to RVC, ran around those houses east to the back way, a southern cut-through near the T where I knew Zimmie’s car could not follow, and continue on my way home down the T; and
“(2) -Assuming Trayvon took the first escape route, a cut-through available to him (northward to RVC then east), I put myself in the experienced George’s fat shoes to see how I could keep Trayvon from making it to the back gate and “getting away”; and I see that since out running and catching Trayvon is unlikely, but with George’s prior and well mentioned knowledge of the “as#hole’s” previous escape routes and destination to the back gate now well documented, I can say George knew enough to head east in the same direction as Trayvon, only difference is while Trayvon spent time running north through the cutt to run east along the front of the homes on Retreat View Circle, George would run in the same direction (east), but take the short, direct route, and run east on the backside of the homes to cutt Trayvon’s escape when he turned south off. George ran directly to the T sidewalk area, and got there first, and patrolled and lurked in it while Trayvon had run around the houses first to get away from George’s car back on Twin Trees, so he got to the T area after George had ran directly there -and was waiting/lurking for Trayvon to come back south. George knew this was the route the kids took, and he knew where they were headed, and he knew by now how to cut them off. And he did it. George gave evidence of this information to the police on several occasions. “They always get away by cutting through the houses” and “to the back gate.” George said it throughout the recorded evidence.
“So, I see that because I put more credence in witness #11s narrative, (that she heard the arguing first on the northside of her house on Twin Trees (west of the T) and the struggle travel east toward the T, then bend the corner of her home, pass it, and end with the gunshot at her neighbor witness #6 John’s house); and Pappa, who puts more credence in witness #2’s narrative (that she saw a foot chase going north toward the T past her house then the gunshot) Pappa and I favor 2 different accounts -neither of which is good news for George, because both of them incriminate him as a murderer.
“And, BTW, I do not see why Zimidiot’s fans should think Omara can get anywhere bringing up the fact that there are several scenarios surrounding how the 2 got to the murder site when every scenario incriminates George. All the prosecution has to prove is what happened after they got there -which is murder and George is convicted. So the prosecution don’t have to show how they got there, and I just engage in trying to piece their route together for fun. There’s no need for it -I’m just having fun. Besides, as a bonus, thanks to George the prosecution is also able to prove George lied about everything he did before he got there, while he was there, and before he met Trayvon. YAHTC -trust me, having several different scenarios that all incriminate the defendant is no prosecution handicap as long as the defense has no evidence indicating his tale is true. Anyway, as it stands, I am caught between their narrative and the one I favor, so I’m going to read the Letterman Blog every now and then and see if they can put enough meat on the bone to settle the issue. Keep me up to date when those folks come up with more stuff we should know. YAHTC, it’s even possible some version of both happened, since we already know both Trayvon and George travelled over more ground than George admits to, and we know they both took longer to meet each other than George says. So George is toast no matter what. Unless he gets some incriminating evidence against Trayvon, or some evidence to verify his story. Highly unlikely when all the evidence so far indicates his guilt, and his lies to cover it up.”
The prosecution has to be careful to have the jury understand that they don’t need to be convinced of which route the defendant took for the final confrontation. As long as we’ve been looking at it, we’re still coming up with more scenarios.
Unless the prosecution has something definitive, they’ll be better off just giving enough information that shows that it couldn’t have happened the way the defendant says it did and the exact route isn’t what’s important. Don’t need the jury finding reasonable doubt about the actual crime b/c they have reasonable doubt about which path the participants took.
I DO agree with you on that, bettykath.
I guess I just want to figure it out of court and here in this forum with all of you.
But I do agree that the prosecution should not confuse the jury.
Don’t know if you guys read this, but this should give you a good laugh. Noted, he didn’t add those nice new color photos.
Click to access 12%2010%2012%20Mr%20Zimmerman’s%20Reply%20To%20State’s%20Response%20to%20Defendant’s%20Motion%20To%20Take%20Additional%20Deposition.pdf
If O’Mara truly believes the half-truths and allegations in his motion, he should be ready to proceed to the immunity hearing. He’s playing the same tune of “my client should not have been arrested.” BDLR addressed that in the last hearing; i.e., what O’Mara and West argue is to be determined at the immunity hearing and/or trial.
@Xena.
YEP!
BDLR is making paper airplanes out of those motions. Hehehe
I have to go back and listen to the hearing again, because I remember BDLR’s argument, but not what Judge Nelson said. If O’Mara wants a corroborating witness to hearsay, when the tape has or is being enhanced, then he is wasting his time deposing a hearsay witness of a hearsay witness, IMO.
I prolly need to hear that part over again too.
Don’t remember what she said.
We know that this motion is using evidence that is easy to discredit, however, at this point in time, the Judge has not been presented/confronted with examination/contest of the underlying materials. Thus the judge must treat the claims of both sides as largely untested and rule from just such a view. So that’s how things stand at this point in time and before the hearing on this answer is held.
At that point in time, each side will mount an effort to controvert the claims of the other side, to cast into question the foundation of the opposing motion. That is where MOM get’s the legs kicked out from under him. Since his motion makes claims that the evidence does not support any longer, even if it once did to some extent.
MOM’s reply would be correctly termed “Taft” material!
@Lonnie,
I understand the process of putting motions and so forth. To me its just paperwork that has to be filed everytime someone says something the other side doesn’t like or wants to be cleared up. Its just for the record. I get that.
What I don’t get is this. O’mara is a smart attorney. He has gotten numerous Judges off the bench. Hell, that writ he wrote was pretty damn good. He has gotten almost all his motions granted.
It seems to me that they are letting more and more control of what should be put into a motion by GZ , then a licensed, practicing, well known attorney named Mark O’Mara.
I think GZ reviews everything O’Mara does. He has a very controlling personality. I’m not saying that he shouldn’t, but it seems to me that O’Mara shows him what he has put together and GZ goes and cuts this out that out. Then when O’Mara files it it looks like a 8 year still in school student for criminal justice put them together.
Your thoughts?
If GZ is putting input into the motions, it’s because there are lies GZ wants to push to conceal the truth. BDLR has already turned the tables on that strategy by using it to inform the judge of the bail hearing debacle, because MOM’s poorly contrived motion opened that door, Bernie sailed through it with all flags flying, hahahaha.
So much for MOM’s strategy of reaching the public with motions. He had hoped this would be a one sided thing.
The idea that TM ever fought with GZ is now a thing of the past, when it is used now, it is being used “figuratively” as a marker of time or position reference point in posts, not as if it is an actual event.
Now it appears that the Martial Artist who provided analysis were right! [http://tinyurl.com/apo5oc9] When GZ grabbed TM, they both fell to the ground and rolled around a bit. TM never got on top of GZ, because he was trying to get away. TM, being more limber, probably made the best effort at getting back to his feet, but after rising above GZ, GZ grabbed him and pulled him back down.
TM never even tried to use his hands to defend himself at all. How could he? He would not know what to do with his hands, he certainly never used them to give any offense.
But back to your question, it seems that MOM is stuck, he has so much he knows he can’t or should not use, it’s become practically impossible for him to draft a motion at all. Why not let GZ do it? MOM’s “lies” are simple recitals of already-failed evidence, being used to support pleas for various kinds of “relief” MOM can dream up.
Stuck in a hole the size of Grand Canyon.
They gave Fogen a copy of that motion so he could practice folding paper. 😈
😆 😆
What’s “taft material”?
The Taft landfill in Orlando is the only one that is licensed to accept waste paper. Thus “Taft” material.
Very good video:
Excellent video!!! Except I think that was his cousin on the phone, not his ex-fiance, wasn’t it? Regardless, excellent.
There was also a phone call on 2/27/2012 to Serino from someone in the RTL who wanted to stay anonymous (and I’m sure the SPD could figure out who she was) and who said she saw Fogen trying to restrain Trayvon Martin.
“I know George. He’s a very confrontational person. It’s in his blood.”
Runs in the family. In and by his media diatribes, Junior confirms what the cousin says. In his tweets threatening attorney Jackson, Junior confirms that confrontation is “in his blood.”
It is fogens cousin and if you listen to the evidence tape she states there was someone else that did the same things and they ask the cousin if she would give the name and she said that person would deny everything.
Too bad we have to look at his face until June.
On the plus side, MOM won’t be able to call him a fine, respectable citizen, or the door to his bail conduct will be revealed to show just how “respectable” he really is.
Perhaps the SP should include a line in the opening statements to the effect that “ladies and gentlemen of the jury, no one will dare say that this defendant is a fine upstanding citizen”, then hope that MOM rises to that challenge and opens his mouth in an attempt to refute that, so they can tell the jury about the bail hearing.
So really none of the witnesses mention his head or face covered in blood until the police are there, and then the police and EMTs say his head and face are all bloody? Huh?
Something I just thought of with reference to Taaffe’s “If you grow corn, you get corn.” Pursuant to that philosophy as he uses it, he should now be sentenced (not accused, not tried, but sentenced) for murder. Thus: “One or more young Black individuals burglarized homes in the neighborhood in the past so now one young Black individual who has not burglarized the aforementioned homes may safely be killed for it.” Leads inevitably to: “One or more older white men killed a young Black individual in the past so now one older white man who has not killed the aforementioned young Black individual may safely be incarcerated for it.”
It’s the American way.
Malisha I believe the first interview taaffee gave he used the phrase “you plant corn you get corn” and the tv reporter I think was Darlene Jones she asked him what he meant by that phrase and he responded “It is what it is” and she just shook her head like I can’t believe what this just said.
Now back on TV planting corn again you know the big 60″ tv
In broad daylight– that was the 11-30-12 Burglary at RVC
According to the embed data, the pic from W13 was taken at 7:19:07 pm, or 2 minutes and 15 seconds after the gunshot was fired into the chest of the victim while this shooter was supposedly on his BACK? A shooter who supposedly STAYED on his back after firing the shot long enough for the victim to:
(1) Sit up
(2) Say “You got it, you got me”
(3) Either fall off or be pushed off by the mighty shooter, allowing him to “crawl out from under him”?
So, allowing for 1, 2, & 3 all this blood supposedly ran DOWN the shooter’s head, under his ear, and even, on the right side, ALL THE WAY DOWN TO HIS BEARD in less than 120 seconds?
Unless, of course, it was “God’s plan” for this killer’s blood to defy gravity and run UPHILL while on his back getting his head bashed….
[IMG]http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMGZUphill6_zpscf474de9.jpg[/IMG]
USE THE PIC, O’MARA!
OK here’s something else that puzzles me.
Fogen thinks Trayvon is suspicious, on drugs, is “up to no good.”
Fogen says Trayvon ambushed him and tried to kill him, and nearly succeeded.
Fogen then says he shot Trayvon, got on top of him, spread out his hands to look for something (how come? If George already shot his gun once and still had his gun, why start to do things that make him put the gun away and use his hands without the weapon drawn? There may still be danger!) and so forth.
Fogen then says he got up. Holstered his gun.
HOW COME? Wouldn’t any rational person who was trained to conceal and carry still keep his gun drawn and ready at this point in time? He thought he had shot a criminal! Could the criminal’s cohort be hiding behind the other bushes? Wouldn’t the victim of a beat-down still want to make sure the next criminal couldn’t leap out at him and finish the job the first criminal had started? Couldn’t the first criminal be “playing possum” so he could grap the switchblade out of his sock and stab Fogen in the gut?
I mean — get real, guys, right? 🙄
He laid the gun on the ground while he was on Trayvon’s back. He lied when he said he spread Trayvon’s hands b/c the cops found T’s hands under him. He lied when he said he thought he was still in danger. He put his gun away when he did b/c he didn’t want the cops to kill him, so he says.
I say again, Use the PICS O’mara!
This is going to be some trial eh? MOM’s got a defendant he can’t put on the stand, evidence he can’t show, and character witnesses and materials he can’t use. GZ’s big mouth and web of lies has cut off just about every possible avenue a defense attorney could possibly use to make a case.
That being so, all MOM can do is throw caution to the winds and put GZ on the stand as early as possible. Not that he’s going to help the case any, but his lies will give MOM cover for losing the case! Just put him on the stand and ask him open ended questions and let him do the rest. After all, if GZ still wants to claim he’s innocent, then let him do the impossible task of explaining all these confounding contradictions himself.
Lonnie wrote:
This is going to be some trial eh? MOM’s got a defendant he can’t put on the stand, evidence he can’t show, and character witnesses and materials he can’t use. GZ’s big mouth and web of lies has cut off just about every possible avenue a defense attorney could
possibly use to make a case.
You have said it perfectly !!!!!
I can only think of two possible avenues for GZ that may include his lawyer or not.
Run or
Plead guilty now of the charges and be done with it.
I think he’s waiting in the hopes that an opportunity to run appears. If he pleads now he loses that hope forever. As it is now, he can hope that something happens that allows him a chance to flee.
I think running is not a good option for right now, his dollar numbers aren’t good.
We don’t know his dollar numbers, or robert&gladys’s collection numbers either.
Correct.
But I know one thing for sure, the mulah ain’t coming in like it use to. O’mara said that.
Can someone put up an illustration on YouTube that shows graphically what is being discussed about the shape of the gun and the injuries on the back of Fogen’s head? I can’t picture it.
At some point, when Fogen was kind of pacing around after having killed Trayvon Martin, he asked a bystander if there was blood on him. I can’t find that quote right now. I think it is very significant because if you have just tolerated the kind of beat-down that Fogen describes and you “couldn’t see anything because there was blood in my eyes” and there was blood on your LIPS for krissake, why would you be asking anyone a question like that?
Also I think the female witness who came out and asked him questions gave a statement and didn’t mention him being bloody. She’s the one whose roommate was on the line with the cops and she ran out and he said, “Just call the police.” I can never keep their witness numbers straight.
@Malisha,
Can someone put up an illustration on YouTube that shows graphically what is being discussed about the shape of the gun and the injuries on the back of Fogen’s head? I can’t picture it.
Hope this helps…..
http://dothprotesttoomuch.com/2012/12/06/what-do-you-think/
@ Malisha
At some point, when Fogen was kind of pacing around after having killed Trayvon Martin, he asked a bystander if there was blood on him. I can’t find that quote right now.
Witness 13 Johnathan M. First audio. 🙂
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
The GZ petition has closed we’ve still got a few more days: 1,512 votes now. http://wh.gov/IXcy
I’ll make a point of distributing again on my facebook, thanks for the reminder. 🙂
Now, 1,515 signatures. Lonnie, your accomplishment is outstanding. As of 6:21 p.m. on 12/17/12 before it closed, GZ’s “malicious prosecution” petition had 1,156 signatures. That would be worldwide, and with the benefit of Junior pitching it on FOX. We also know that a portion of the signatures were jokes.
That should send a powerful message to Junior, GZ, and his supporters. Even with FOX and other media sources at his disposal, Junior did not, and is not helping GZ.
It should also send a powerful message to O’Mara and West; i.e., that they can drop the diatribe that GZ should not have been arrested, and start concentrating on how to defend against the physical and forensic evidence that convicts him.
WOW!
It helped a lot, thank you!! ❗
😎
de nada, Malisha
I hear small children in the background of those interviews. Wonder how the witness liked having a gun shot next to his house.
Here’s a link to Kel Tek’s web site and the weapon GZ used….the Kel Tek PF9
http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/
Looks like a good match to me, but the odds of the gun producing superficial wounds needed to avoid the ER, just seem to low to be likely. Unless this weapon has such sharp edges that it can cut skin. I’d think that it’s edges would be polished round and blunted.
I’ll keep this in mind too though. It’s a reasonable possibility that can’t be easily excluded yet.
Let’s see, the gun would have to be held in the flat of the hand and slapped hard against the back of the head. That kind of suggests that someone did it to him, is more likely than him doing it himself.
What do you think?
It’s possible. It was dark.
Someone could of did it to him, but that would be some real quick thinking on someone’s feet at that very moment to do. Just sayin…
Well there’s two characteristics that go against such a lucky strike. The blood tells us a story of wounds that have been aged much longer than just 6 to 10 minutes and held in a dry place to boot.
No bleeding that initiated out there in the rain, would have had time needed to coagulate before the police arrived. That’s what the well defined edges of the rivulets are telling us, they formed in a dry place, at least a dozen or more minutes before the police arrived.
How about this scenario:
Shellie and Fogen are drinking and arguing about black guys in the neighborhood at 6:30 (I know she claimed being at her father’s). She’s VERY SCARED of these guys but her useless husband does nothing about it. It becomes a heated argument that he turns to walk away from, and she throws her gun at the back of his head. He picks the gun up,enraged, but leaves the house to distance himself from her, gets into his car…
(The holster is an inconvenient fact here)
(But it does explain why he was so matter-of-fact with Witness 13; “Just tell her I shot someone.”)
@ Cercando
I don’t know about her throwing a gun. I don’t think she would go that far, argue Yes. She knows he has a temper. She also knows the other woman he had before her, had Domestic Violence issues with. So I don’t know about that scenario, but anything is possible with these two. Eh
@Malisha,
Also I think the female witness who came out and asked him questions gave a statement and didn’t mention him being bloody. She’s the one whose roommate was on the line with the cops and she ran out and he said, “Just call the police.” I can never keep their witness numbers straight.
Here is a link that contains a quick and short version of what was said by which witness. Scroll down to Witness Summary.
http://imgur.com/a/bcAII
🙂
Do you remember telling your parents a lie when you were a kid and getting into so much more trouble because the lie that you thought benefited you turned out to be the wrong thing to say, it actually made things worst. This is X problem he told so many lies and non benefited him, they all make him look worst.
@Tee,
Its funny what you say about being a kid being caught in a lie. Lying was not an option when I was a kid. Back in the day that was not tolerated. 🙂
But I understand what you are saying.
The problem for George is, lying when you are kid is a different set of punishments versus lies you tell when you are an adult who kills a kid.
re: lying. We learned that we all make mistakes and can expect some sort of punishment but sometimes we just got a warning. But if we lie about it, we were punished much worse for the lie and the warning had happened a long time before. It was one of the “knowns”.
The ONLY person who mentioned blood on GZ’s face was witness 13.
You don’t need witness numbers for those two because they’ve spoken publicly, and thus had their identities confirmed in discovery. Selma Mora Lamilla spoke to GZ, and Mary Cutcher made the phone call. Before she called, Cutcher was at the back door with Mora, saw Zimmerman get up, and heard his exchange with Mora.
Lonnie said:
Let’s see, the gun would have to be held in the flat of the hand and slapped hard against the back of the head. That kind of suggests that someone did it to him, is more likely than him doing it himself.
What do you think?
——–
IMO, it would be impossible to pistol-whip yourself in the back of the head. Someone had to have done it for him after the fact, or the bruise is from something else.
There were two people’s DNA on the gun, Fogen’s and some other person who was NOT Trayvon Martin
Shellie?
Malisha
The other person’s fingerprints on fogens gun were an “unidentified Caucasian male”
@looneydoone: “Malisha
The other person’s fingerprints on fogens gun were an “unidentified Caucasian male””
—————————————-
That’s a rather odd statement, since fingerprints don’t usually reflect race or sex. Please explain?
An unidentified Caucasian male could have been Osterman, Taaffe, Witness “MMA style blows” John, Tim Smith, etc. “Here, hold still” BONK “Wow, blood…does it hurt?”
The chances of Trayvon Martin having smashed Fogen’s head on the sidewalk to raise welts in the exact shape of the gun he was carrying, imprinted sideways on his scalp, is one of those very very tiny probabilities — in fact, about as probable as Fogen seeing and being suspicious of Trayvon at the exact moment that Trayvon saw and decided to kill Fogen.
Go figure. If God has a plan, anything is possible. I can see the defense right now. “The world was created in six days; the serpent tempted Eve to eat an apple; mankind got expelled from the Garden; Noah built a big ship and survived the floor with two of every animal; and just as George Zimmerman saw a suspicious guy in the rain, Trayvon Martin decided it was high time for him to kill a white man. The defense rests.”
Lonnie Star, it wasn’t fingerprints found on the gun, but DNA. You can tell the gender and the basic ancestry of the person from his DNA.
I know, I just wanted to point out the mistake in that post: Malisha:
“The other person’s fingerprints on fogens gun were an “unidentified Caucasian male” ”
—————
I knew a mistake had been made so I just pointed it out.
Not saying that it was but on the colored pic, the blood looked bright red and like a neat sweep, similar to using nail polish. I know it isn’t nail polish but it is awfully neat and bright red. Nothing dripped to the bottom lip or chin. Nothing on the side of his face. Talk about a close up!
ps re above cant figure out how to setup the spell check on my new accer I meant to say above.
When I’m posting, words that are incorrect have underlined in red. With the mouse over the word, I right click and alternate spellings come up. I just have to pick the correct one, which, fortunately is usually the top one.
colin, something else that might make your comments easier to read is if you break up the longer ones into paragraphs.
I have no problems reading your posts, Colin. I find them interesting and informative. Look forward to reading more from you.
same here, keep posting Colin
Do you have a teenager in your life? I find that teenagers are good at getting functions and applications to work on electronic devices. Pre-teens and early20’s are also good at it, and some of them can even explain how and why.
Colin,
Don’t ever worry about that. You’re fine. Rock on!
camanocat sorry if it irrites you I know it does some.Im dyslexic an no its not an excuse for being stupid.I manage that all on my own.I suffer from letter blindness as opose word blindness .Some dyslexics have one or other or mixture of both..When I first needed to tyype on a pc .I got coloured tape an scotch tape sticky notes all differnt colours for the kek pad.Like red for A..Green for T..bLUE FOR b..Pink for P..Black for X an so on …Also had a toshiba laptop with a spellchech setup for me an got on reasonably well..I also went to a special scholl they had sevral in Scotland exclusivley for dyslexic children where we were encouraged to spell phoneticly…That toshiba broke down recently an no matter how many times Ive tried I cant figure it out.And Rachel I dont blame you for only reading my short posts.Although you will never know cause this ia another boreing ot long one.
Colin, I enjoy reading your comments and can understand them. I tend to work late and sleep late. If I don’t get my email until after noon, there are generally hundreds, and that’s when I give the long ones a drive-by read unless they are @Xena or written by the Professor (because I want to learn).
Dyslexics of the world UNTIE…….
LOL@mountainmanpat.
Some medical students were given a test….that being to rearrange the letters PESIN that would be the name of a body part.
Those that chose PENIS failed
Those that chose SPINE passed 🙂
That doesn’t make sense. Those are both body parts, so why did one group pass and the other fail?
I never skip over long posts. I enjoy reading everyone’s opinions. And I enjoy your posts, Colin. I remember you as ecossiepossie from The Hinky Meter. I used to post there as Mixologist74. 🙂
Colin, I’m sorry if what I said came off wrong. Your posts are not boring, and I encourage you to keep writing them. That was NOT my intent at all. I really enjoy your posts and your insight, I just can’t read the long ones – not just yours, but anyone else’s. I know I have written a few very long ones myself, and I’m sure people don’t read my long ones either.
I didn’t mean for it to come off the way it did and I am glad you are here. There are a lot of posts I have to skip over because I just can’t keep stuff in my head while I read them, but I know others can, so please keep it up!
Colin B, if you have a larger document you want me to retype for you, I can do that. It’s kind of a specialty of mine. I will e-mail to Professor Leatherman a way for you to reach me if you’d like to have me do that for you — but for documents you want to write, not just for blogs. I have no problem understanding your blog comments because I tend to read phonetically.
@Malisha
You are so cool. 🙂
@ Malisha. I am not speaking for Colin, but most people don’t understand that this is a learning disability. The brain is a muscle and needs to be worked. Colin is doing an outstanding job on this blog with his disability. My husband goes to theapry twice a week, but he still has homework to do. He has to do it himself. This is the only way he will progress. Very nice that you are so concerned and caring.
Mary – true, but Malisha can’t retype it for Colin until Colin makes the effort to write it the first time.
@ Malisha. I didn’t mean any harm with my post to you. I was just explaining what this handicap can do to a person. I don’t even know the extent of Colin’s, but it doesn’t seem too severe. I think it is very kind of you to offer to help him. You IMO are a very compassionate person. I also love your posts, you have me cracking up.
@ Colin Black. I enjoy all of your posts. I understand and I congradulate you for doing such a great job. My husband has dyxlexia as well as aphasia. Many people don’t know about these conditions and how faustrating they can be. Keep up the good work Colin.
@ Vicky. Thank you for bringing this to everyones attention.
Why should he have had to bring it to anyone’s attention? I guess since Colin has disclosed his dyslexia to the commenters on this blog he gets a pass. Thank God Colin has a world recognized condition and not just a poor speller.
Logi – I could not agree with you more. What will be next — sentence structure, perhaps proper paragraph breaks. Unbelievable!
Rock on Colin Black!
I love reading your comments. You might be dsylexic but you’ve made up for it in the intelligence department, that’s for sure.
Please may no mind to rude ignorant people.
You no another thought went through my head…I know we were riddiculing fogen the other night compareing him with Inspecter Cloussou..At least his logic off looking for non asked for useless adresses the night of Trayvons murder.But consider what we know of the defendant his cohorts his wife .An I still think his wife was with him that night up un till he left the truck.Remember he was on his way to Target an he an shellie allways went grocerie shoping after he mentored his AA Children.At the start of his vt re enactment when asked where he first say Trayvon he Answered My Wife…An then caught himself an started again..We know that all thease players in this tragedy where paranoid of Black youths an had claimed crime from Black youths had touched all there lifes Frank Corny saltwater taffee..His unlocked honey trap spiders web was regulary left unlocked .Despite him being on the N W ..And despite the massive amout of crime in there small commuity by those Travon type dudes with there pants down..Throw oysterman looking for a pearl to cast before his swinelike self .Into the mix as a regular pair of expert ears an eyes in the Retreat…I M O Trayvon had visited the Retreat on a few occasions.An am sure he being so tall an all an most important of all Black.One of thease nutjobs would have spotted him.Like a said its a small gated comminity.An Trayvons easily noticable to thease raceists as they have there eyes peeled for his exact type.So who knows who first spotted him.They could have surveiled him for days when he visited prior ocassions….He returns to Miami Gardens an out of sight out of mind still got this dude doing breakins or imagined home invasions even if said home invasion turns out to be someone borrowing a freinds x box ithout permission..Trayvon shows up now an agin an is definately noticed .They probly had a code name for him like strech or talldude or somesucch bullcrap..Sometime later this dude who has been comitting thease petty crimes is caught by workmen or something .Forgen hears about the arrest an is livid not only has he nothing to do with the arrest the suspect lives right along his street.Here he was thinking it was outsiders from across the main roads outside the gated cominity in the poorer area..An allll along he was under his nose liveing in the retreat just like that young kis strech we see .H e visits his mom or dad or something every month or so he is probably the master mind .Bet he takes the stolen goods back to Miami or wher ever the asshole is from Im on to him now.H e aint gonna get away this time.Those punk ass workmen might have got lucky an been in the right place at the right time.But Im gonna get my peeps to keep there eyes open for strech.An the next time he visits the retreat Il be ready to take him down an solve the entire burglary ring Il be a hero for sure.An they will have to hire me as full time security .MMMMe an Mark O will strart our own security empire .Soon il be covering other gated cominitys with my firm an shopping malls the skys the limmit….But of course Trayvon was no fence /mastermind..Obviously this is not even my opinion .Its my pure speculation.
I must say, Colin B, it has a lot of merit to it, even though it is one of those kinds of speculation that we cannot prove after the fact.
It reminds me of the crime show “Criminal Minds” where these glamorous profilers sit and think up what made a murderer do this or do that, and they’re right on point, and they interrupt a murder just at the last minute. I like this theory; we should write it up into a fictional script and make a bundle!
Malisha says:
December 18, 2012 at 8:02 am
Oh yeah, how about this: His head is slammed on the ground on the sidewalk where the dogs have been pooping for all that time and he doesn’t want to go to the hospital to get a tetanus shot? Bam Bam Bam on the sidewalk right by the dogpoop station and he isn’t worried about infection and doesn’t even get a prophylactic antibiotic or inoculation
…An fogen thought this real suss guy wasnt right.He s on drughhs or summmit.He dont look like no athlete ..Tall thin long limbed..Im from the UK an even I know Magic Johnson .Shakka Oneil,Jordan.Are amongs the most famous an popul;ar athlets in the States in the Planet ..But I digress agin.Malisha as so often points out the obvious flaws that engulff every part of his inane actions before dureing an after the event..Continueally even to this dey.An when 2013 arrives in 5 mins.They will go batshit crazy on steroids x a… graham…head pounded head punched mu;ltiple times by a drug crazed thug..Even the accused own mouth says he thinks he is on drugs.Trayvons hans must have be graged worse cut bleeding his blood mixing with defendants .Broken nose poss hudreds ruptured capilers .Perfect gate ways for one tiny drop of H I V Infected blood from drug crazed aggressor to enter his system .Blood on his lips ingested by george if it also..Contained his assailants blood could easily mixed an entered his system from split lip even a slight graze on inside of your cheek or mouth from a tooth lacerateing inner mouth common injury from heavy punching.An Marshs right the lack of concern from a wimp like him for his own wefare proves Trayvon never laid a finfer on him .Along with the lack of DNA An the lack of credibility of the acussed soon to be the convicted murder…………….
I do enjoy your comments but you may want use spell-check, as it’s difficult to read your posts. Thank you.
I just read the short ones.
Comments like this are uncalled for. Has it ever occurred to you that there are people who read and comment on blogs who live with a learning disability, for example dyslexia? No one expects you to read comments made by a specific contributor, but I do hope that Professor Leatherman expects contributors to exercise some level of respect for individuals who struggle with written communication regardless of the reason.
Chill Vickie! It was a request made respectfully. Spell check is a great tool for everybody to use. I don’t see camanokat’s comment to be problem.
Sent from my iPod
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps I am one of those people and I’m just posting how I am able to deal with it? I never said anything about anyone should not contributing and I totally encourage everyone to contribute in ANY way they can and I totally respect anyone and everyone who does. You took my post way out of context.
Just let him be! Some of you take yourselves way to seriously! IE, don’t write in caps! now someone is complaining about another’s form of writing….Really? But have the name “niggachinky” on an attachment and no one says a word. Can you say hypocrite?
What if the guy just can”t spell? ?? Oooooh don”t make fun of DeeDee’s dialect…
Some of you are bullies ! Tea cup call the saucer white much?
I read Colin’s comments just fine. As a matter of fact, his comments are very insightful and well thought. His good reasoning and common sense is what impresses me most.
Colin’s comments are thorough and respectful. Perhaps you can learn from him.
Yeah Tactical flashlight has considerable combat advantage against even an armed opponent.They are very bright an heavy take also heavy batterys to increase brightness an weight,The tactical torch on its own is equivelllent of a short heavy batton/billllly club .Covered in solid hardened rubber.Its main tactical use though is to render your opponent blind for up to 7 seconds .As the extermleay bright watage makes the person in fropnt of the glare not only blind.The person holding the torch can seee his victim clearly.An a well skilled assasin can kill a blind person in 4 seconds doesnt need seven,,,,They use lasers on the front of weapons thease days.Simmilar to the laser pointers or my cats favourte toy his laser tiger.Onmce that laser red dots your ass you wouldnt have time to kiss it good bye…Sorrry for going on again …Dont do much shopping groceries ect thats nesseserrry aan a given ..But Christmas Shopping thats a whole nrw ball game…people are insane..ventured into the frey today not by choice,,NESSESITTY…The mother of invention .Or as in my case today the mother of prevention..Am stilll ion shock i m o suffering from P T S D ,,brought on by the heat of battleing crazed women with trolley/tanks/bulldozedrs..Whom either dont see you or c.ant be arsed to agnowlage you exist as fellow human…So just ride rough shod over you as if you dont exist…You wouldnt beleive …ENOUGH …iM STRAYING O T YET AGIN.So this post needs a bloomin index…Bright lights make you blind if shone straight into your yaks……………..
Where do you think “Deer in the headlights” came from?
The same also applies to Frog gigging……….all they see is the light…..and not what’s behind it.
Alas….at 9,000 ft in the Rockies….gonna have to wait till spring for any more frog legs 🙂
Someone (I think it was Crane) asked about a holiday card for Trayvon’s family. The following link is to a holiday greeting. Please feel free to express your best wishes to Trayvon’s family.
First time commenters will be placed in moderation in order to avoid insults and other filth.
You’re very welcome. I’mglad I could help.
It just seems unbelievable, to me, that GZ didn’t instinctively reach around to the back of his head and check for blood.
I think he allowed himself to be smacked around by someone after the gunshot.
Has the “U” shaped redness been discussed here?
I don’t know what the context is for Lonnie’s post. The frame of the killer’s gun has a provision for mounting either a laser sight or a light of some sort but his tactical flashlight has no provision for attaching it to a gun. It’s just a very bright heavyduty flashlight that can double as an impact weapon.
Thanks, Dave. I thought I had missed something, but now I can go back to my original understanding that his flashlight was just an ordinary, heavy duty one that was never meant to be attached to a gun.
I don’t quite remember that post, but it was back in the GZ as wannabee cop with tactical flashlight on gun as seen in movies, days. We’ve moved on from there as more evidence appeared and was subjected to analysis.
Dave,
Wow, I forgot about Fogen’s heavyduty flashlight.. Why didn’t he use his flashlight for protection instead of a gun. A flashlight can do some damage.. He’s such a pathetic POS.
Had he already dropped it by then?
I never looked into the flashlights admittedly. But the topic obviously triggered a lot of speculation. Amsterdam’s argument was that the larger one, I guess did not work anymore since he had used it before around the clubhouse.
There is the tiny Toyota Key flashlight, his top evidence concerning his story, since it was were it was, and then there is the larger one further down.
Does anyone have any expertise or looked more closely into this story?
Come to think of it, a lot of officers mention the Toyata key flashlight, which suggests to me, it is the one still working.
I think page 3, of the 7th supplementary discovery is the drawing of the teacher, that watches Fogen move towards her or the T-section strictly he could have dropped it on the way.
Sorry, Toyota, of course. I saw it too late.
mountainmanpat (and any of you who know about guns), I have a question. Is the tactical flashlight in evidence compatible with the Kel Tec – 9 mm?
I just read this comment by Lonnie Starr from August:
.
.
Lonnie Starr says:
August 27, 2012 at 11:51 am
.
“We are seeing, via the evidence dumps, testimony and interviews, the “tips of icebergs” that remain submerged.
“The gun is on the ground”??? Can only be the tip of some kind of notification iceberg, what does the submerged part look like? A clue is that the tactical flashlight, that clips to the weapon is on the ground and the weapon it clips to is back in the holster. Now, what could that possibly mean?
“Well, for sure it would not look good, if the gun was found on the ground, with the tactical flashlight still mounted thereon.
It doesn’t seem that the police were there when he says the gun is on the ground… But, then, who else would he be telling this to? Could the police have misstated their real arrival time?
Or is it simply that GZ could not risk being seen picking up the gun and disconnecting the tactical flashlight, so he had someone else do it and hand him the gun?”
YAHTC
Being as most of what I shoot are black powder muzzle loaders I can’t really give an answer to the “tactical flashlight”
And I have not as yet tried to attach a “tactical candle” to any of my front stuffers 🙂
I once loaded a .50 cal. Hawken of mine with 130 grains of 3F (pistol powder) black powder…..held tight against the shoulder…..and cheek pressed tight against the comb……Although no injury or bleeding…..my cheek hurt for 2 weeks 😦
Also, does would his gun WITH the tactical flashlight attached fit in his holster? or would he have had to have the gun out IF the tactical flashlight were attached?
Thanks for your reply, mountainmanpat. Maybe, someone else knows the answer.
Oh, your poor cheek….ow!
He reholstered his gun and had police remove it from the waistband holster.
We do not have any records of the respective arrival time of the officers on scene. My suspicion is, there could be some kind of cover up in this context,. to not let the muss on scene show too much.
I may be wrong, but as far as I know the only person that tried to put together the diverse dots from the 911 calls and 911 logs together (see 7th supplementary discovery) to get at precise arrival times is Tchoubi, while looking at the clubhouse videos. You have to scroll down to LEOs Smith, Ayala & Raimondo Logs and maybe slightly above too. I have to look at this closer.
But strictly I am not sure if Raimondo is indeed the second on scene, remember Ayala is the first dispatched, but somehow delayed and later very active to get something for fingerprints. Strictly both claim to be second on scene Raimondo and Ayala more or less directly.
Ayala more indirectly, while Raimondo is officially registered as second. Important in this context both Ayala’s, Smith’s reports are modified by Stacy McCoy on 2/27/2012 5:08 on the same date and the exactly same time. Stacy McCoy is the on duty supervisor on scene.
Ricardo Ayala:
first discovery page 14)
state Attorney’s office (SAO investigation), second discovery page 2:
Leander, can you tell me how to make the block quotes again?
Thanks.
you already did it, Malisha.
Above I must have missed to close several “blockquotes”, that’s what makes it look chaotic.
Raimando ‘after the first turn I saw ofc Smith standing between the buildings with a male.’So there was a clear line of vision before he even got out of his car.sorry I know I’m dense but I don’t understand R’s statement.
sorry, this was a bit too hasty, I could have checked the html tags at least.
Oh Leander, nevermind, I tried an experiment and it worked!!
Re above I am getting old first bought a laptop actually a big computer ten years ago used it for patience an games wasnt on line…Then got a laptop about 8 years ago..Started blogging due to Caylee Anthonys murder by trunkmom about three four years ago??Although Id read sites never registered or commented untill I read Vals time line of evidence at Above Top Secret site…Sorry again for mistake as you realise my math above makes no sense wich is the norm for me .I rarely make sense an never were math concerned..
oops did it again I will have to stop answering questions before I finish reading all comments..I see a question an answer it only to then read someone giveing a much more coherent answer than mine…Also last night a weird thing happened I wrote a post an it disapeared..Didnt say awaiting moderation just wasnt there.So I refreshed the page to check if it would show up.It didnt so I attempted the post again an this time it was there no probs..Today whilst trying to find out where I left of last night as there were loads of new replys I wanted to read.I noticed that my vannished post was now there..As well as my rewrite so sorry for off topic explanation.
Two sides to a story says:
December 18, 2012 at 8:42 am
If the photo is authentic and he really has that big zit – burn thing near the little cut – might not that be a burn from the ejected shell casing? Are these hot as they pop out
Never fired a real gun never will.Fired plenty in playstation medall of honour grand theft auto though..But in answer to your question Im an expert in hot metal hitting your face for fleeting momments as a welder of over 40 years experiance.An the answer is yes shell caseings will burn you they are plenty hot enough..Strangely the hotter a metal is as it splashes on you the least it hursts white hot metal you experiance sparks of that heat sometimes whilst ark welding an you dont even feel them.Differt story if they enterd your eye but thats why you wear gogggles.Red hot sparks they sting a little an leave slight wee scar sometimes sometimes not.Metal that is hot but below red hot hurts like a zxccxx’;@”””””””””#…An sometimes sticks /welds to your skin an leaves a lifelong scar even though not garrrish an very small useally.
I’m no welder but I’ve done enough of it to know what hot metal feels like when it it hits me in the face. I’ve also done a fair amount of shooting and been hit in the face often enough with spent cases to say that the two aren’t even close. Yes, the fired case feels very warm but not hot enough to cause a visible burn.
I suppose that a small child with no shooting experience and no supervision might manage to get a broken nose from firing a 9mm pistol. I can’t picture a reasonably stong man who is an experienced shooter (like the killer) doing so. A lightweight 9mm pistol like GZ’s KelTec isn’t the easiest gun to shoot accurately but it’s not going to hit the shooter in the face unless he’s holding it right in front of his nose.
Fogen always demonstrates shooting and aiming with his arm fully extended even though his story indicates otherwise.
Oops – *stories* indicate otherwise.
I can definitely see the recoil getting him if he has Trayvon by the shirt with one hand and shooting with the other. He probably didn’t have a great grip, and when shooting with one hand while your elbow is bent and not straight, the recoil is much worse.
Lisa- however, the angle of the bullets trajectory point to the fact that GZ did NOT have his elbow bent at all. The shot went straight in, no angle. The indicates the shooters arm was straight. Don’t know how that affects recoil but the forensics of the shot are pretty clear.
Sent from my iPod
cielo62, It’s been shown that if GZ and Trayvon were both upright, either standing or kneeling, and GZ’s arm was fully extended, you would get the correct trajectory for the bullet. But is this also the case if Trayvon was lying on the ground as GZ was over him?
Mountainmanpat@mountainmanpat says:
December 18, 2012 at 12:32 am
It has always been my belief that the broken nose came from the recoil of Fogens firearm…..His choice of weapons….the Kel Teh PF9
Mountainmanpat@..A lot of people have come to the same conclusion.Surely if this had happened we would have evidence of he who mustnot be named /voldermort..mort means death…His D N A .Woulld be on the recoil mechanisim.An as they checked the gun for D N A .As the conclusively stated none of Trayvons D N A was present on the grip of the gun.Surely they would have to check the entire weapon to exclude Trayvons D N A being present be it on the barrel .He could have theoreticly come into contact with the gun anywhere dureing a struggle or attepmtted grabbing of the gun depending on wich version you beleive.Of course if his statement of I Thought or felt he had seen the gun.Then there would be none present.But as I ve said the entire surfuce includeing triggers crevices recoil ect would have to be swabed an tested.An any D N A Found would have been cheched agin the accused an TRAYVON..An since the reports are negative for dna Im assuming there none an the recoil didnt cause the little nick/grage on his nose.Ive had a biggger woulnd bursting a spot…Or do you think they foudnd voldermorts dna on the recoil an didnt mention it or only tested for Trayvons as gz dna was expected to be found on his own weapon along with sz becuase it wasnt his weapon it was her gun.Easy mista to makea as me mate would say to identical guns two identical foolz.
@MountainManPat
I have also come to that same conclusion.
Bloody Nose video WARNING: GRAPHIC and he does some nasty things.
http://www.break.com/usercontent/2007/10/bloody-nose-after-fight-392172
This is the so far the best video to depict two things regarding photo
of GZ in back of the LE vehicle.
1) The drip of blood at the tip of GZ nose.
2) The blood on GZ lips.
This video made me think of a couple of things.
The drip on his nose, is from leaning forward.
The blood on his lips should of been wiped from licking his lips.
Witness 13 took 3 photos: Back of GZ head, tactical flashlight, Trayvon’s dead body. He did not take
a frontal shot of his face. Considering that this was according to GZ, the first punch thrown by Trayvon, this
would of been the most significant picture he would of wanted taken right then and there.
I have a couple of thoughts on this:
At the time these pictures were taken @ 7:19, I believe GZ did not want a frontal view of his face taken. He knew people heard and saw things already. He just didn’t know what. We all know his propensity to lie and take what other people know and use it to his advantage.
I believe that when he was holding Trayvon down, he had the gun close to his face. Taking into considertion the Medical Examiner’s Report of the Gun Shot wound, there would of been little space between them. He would of pointed the gun high near his face, with his knees on either side of Trayvon.
He was doing two things simultaneously, hold Trayvon’s sweatshirt down with his dominant hand (left), while making
sure he didn’t hit his hand and aim for the kill shot, through his heart.
Also, from countless internet searches, this gun is cheaply made that has alot of recoil. Another point to consider is that he used his non-dominant hand which is the right hand with a one hand grip. Most internet searches show a reasonable amount of recoil with people using both hands on that gun. Imagine with only one hand. The nick and nose bleed, I believe, was caused by this action.
Comparing the video of the young man bleeding from his nose he is leaning forward, hence the drip at the tip of his nose. If he was on his back, like he claims, the picture taken should of shown blood from his nose going towards his hairline or and towards his cheekbones.
This young man in the video had a fight and his nose was bleeding badly.
I did note something that the young man did, that GZ didn’t do and that was he licked his lips. One would think this would be a “normal reaction” by someone. But then again that’s why we believe someone enhance that on the photo. Also in his video the blood seems to be coming mainly from one nostril. No apparent swelling.
GZ had to be leaning forward over Trayvon for that one drop of blood to land on his clothing.
Scenario:
The recoil hits him in the nose. He checks Trayvon for a weapon, finds none, while he is doing that a single drop of GZ blood falls
on Trayvon’s sweatshirt.
IIRC that was the only blood of GZ found on Trayvon. No other DNA of GZ was found on Trayvon, this is supported by DNA reports. One drop of blood of GZ was found on Trayvon.
If we are to believe that Trayvon punched GZ at the on set of the fight. GZ would of been leaking all over the place.
Blood would of been all over Trayvon. That is not the case. Just looking at the video shows how much blood leaks from a
bloody nose.
The only reasoning I can come up with, is that the nose injury occured AFTER the gunshot.
Immediately after the shooting, he doesn’t know if this witness saw the gun hit him. So he only let’s him take a back of head photo.
Why?
Because GZ knows that Witness 6 (John) will back him up, he saw him on the ground for a second or two.
He doesn’t know what this other guy saw.
What does GZ do? He starts a conversation with him to find out how much he knows. “Man this guy was beating me up, so I had to shoot him?”
GZ wants to know how much this guy saw. He doesn’t tell this guy “OMG, I just shot someone”, or he doesn’t say “Hey call an ambulance!”
He is already thinking about how to gather up his story to make it work to his advantage.
Then comes the police. He’s handcuffed, and sitting in the back of a police car. Plenty of time to come up with some bullcaca.
@7:19 photo taken of back of head by bystander.
@7:25 photo taken by LEO Michael Wagner
@7:40 emt start cleaning him up. (No mention of how he got the bloody nose)(Report EMT caused by some blunt object)
@7:52 arrives at cop shop
@11:21 CSI tech D Smith takes admitted killer pics of hands face hands etc.
EMT O’Rourke testified at the Bond Hearing that he was NOT BLEEDING when he started care.
EMT O’Rourke also testified that he cleaned him up and applied ice packs.
Between the time the Wagner Photo is taken and the Emt arrives is about 15 minutes.
I don’t know how long the drive is from The Retreat to the Police sation. But considering that they arrived 12 minutes after clean up. The clean up must of not been that long or the drive was not that long. Someone else can figure that out, if they like.
Apparently this so called broken nose starting healing thyself. By the time CSI tech takes the pictures at the station @ 11:21, there is no misalignment of the nose. No blood gushing out. No swelling. Hell there is not even a Kleenex stuck in
his nose.
Also noted that he refused transport to Hospital, Why? They have X-Ray machines!
Refused transport again at cop shop 3 times. Why? They have real doctors, not EMT’s. No offense to EMT’s.
Refused Ear Nose Throat, recommended by his own PA. Why? More of the same.
So in conclusion I hope they do enter the photos into evidence.
Bernie DL Rionda can paint a better picture then what I did, in regards to those particluar photos.
PS I will post some recoil videos. I can only post one link at a time, because the comment gets caught in moderation.
http://www.break.com/surfacevideo/gun-recoils
Thank you:
I watched the video……and the thought occurred to me.
If the nose was broken with the first punch, and fogen was on his back, then the blood should be running down the sides of his face……cheeks, eyes etc.
NOT straight down from his nostrils as this would indicate he was in an upright position.
Thoughts?
Add in the fact that GZ claims that he was smothered. If this was true we would see that his cheeks and the bridge of his nose would have smudges or blood trails also. The blood is only visible in the middle of the mustache area and lips. Are we to assume that Trayvon Martin said to him, “Hold still I don’t want to get blood all over your face, just in your mustache and lips”. I think not. 🙂
Police were at the scene almost right after the gunshot. Police are not going to allow you wipe your face, they want to document injuries. As they did @7:25. the only problem for GZ by this photo is that it does not depict what he is telling. Hence the possiblity of photoshopping.
Any way they cut it, meaning O’Mara, those pictures do him no good.
“Hold still I don’t want to get blood all over your face, just in your mustache and lips”
LMAO 🙂
And he also says to GZ “Hey stranger, I see you have a tactical flashlight and maybe I see a gun, you wouldn’t happen to have some sterile gloves on ya, so I don’t get any of your DNA on my hands while I’m smothering you, I will keep in mind only the mustache and lips, only the mustache and lips. 🙂
@Blushedbrown. Thank you. You have put in words what I’ve felt about the photo controversy. Physical evidence does not agree with GZ’s stories. If Trayvon covered GZ’s mouth and nose with both his hands, and put all of his weight down as GZ says, the blood would be smeared.
The same is true for the head boo-boos; i.e., if GZ shimmied to the grass, there would be blood would be on the grass and smeared on his head. Since he jacket raised up, there should also be blood on his jacket collar.
And last, getting hit in the nose does not cause reasonable fear of great bodily harm justifying killing the person later.
Here is where O’Mara’s focus is misdirected and unreasonable. He is concentrating on photos of purported injuries that occurred at the beginning of the altercation. If the State concentrates on GZ’ s statement describing his actions just before and when shooting Travyon, those photos are as good as a blank piece of paper, IMO.
@ Xena,
Blushing Brown Proudly, Thank You for your compliment.
Xena wrote:
Here is where O’Mara’s focus is misdirected and unreasonable. He is concentrating on photos of purported injuries that occurred at the beginning of the altercation. If the State concentrates on GZ’ s statement describing his actions just before and when shooting Travyon, those photos are as good as a blank piece of paper, IMO.
As the Fonz would say “Exactamundo”!!
Actually, now that I think of it both of the photos can be used to discredit his story.
Both of photos depict blood going the wrong way!!! HA!!!
O’mara please admit pictures asap!
MMP wrote:
If the nose was broken with the first punch, and fogen was on his back, then the blood should be running down the sides of his face……cheeks, eyes etc.
Correct. GZ claims of multiple blows to his face. Blood should appear all over, not just in the mustache area and lips. The picture does not show that. We’ve all had a bloody nose at one time or another. We know how a nose bleeds when someone is on their back, upright, or leaning forward.
Gravity doesn’t lie.
In response to MMP comment…..another thing to consider is that scalp wounds bleed profusely as a general rule.
@blushedbrown
I don´t think GZ´s bled half as much as the boy in the video and blood didn´t run down his chin as it did with him because GZ´s moustache created a barrier and it got clogged up there where much of it congealed creating the sticky mess of the pic. and what carried on flowing would be carried by the flow of the hairs into his mouth.
What is crystal clear is that Trayvon could not have tried to smother him nose and mouth without getting blood on him… impossible. And if GZ bled half as much as the boy in the video there would have been blood everywhere including paving, grass, etc.
@gbrbsb
Wrote:
I don´t think GZ´s bled half as much as the boy in the video and blood didn´t run down his chin as it did with him because GZ´s moustache created a barrier
Let’s go back in time. If Trayvon punched GZ at the T as GZ claims, and also claims he landed on his back. Let’s freeze that picture in our heads. Blood should of flowed downward toward his cheeks and he should be leaking by now. No blood found at the “T”. GZ also claims that when he punched him he got right on top of him and started punching him so more. That story changed at the reenactment the following day. There is no mentioned that he stumbled or swatted @ Trayvon in his first written statement. Lets start the movie again. Fast forward to next day. He now realizes that the body was found some 40 yds from the initial point of contact. By looking at the boy in the video he bleed for about 2 min. IIRC the fight/struggle lasted for about a minute and half. Someone else may correct me. If he was bleeding from the initial contact, where did all the blood go. He is suppose to be bleeding for at least a minute from initial contact. Even more bleeding should of been produced from the several blows that GZ claims that Trayvon did once he mounted him. Even with a beard/goatee acting somewhat of a barrier, it is not a magnet for all the blood supposedly coming from all this activity GZ is claiming. With several punches to the face, where is all this blood, and more importantly where is the blood on Trayvon’s hands. The picture illustrates more then ever that what he is telling is not true and the injuries do not match up with his story either.
You said it, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR!
Let me add an artifact you left out. With the nose bleeding copiously the blood should pool and/or leave a thick enough coating over areas of the lip, such that blows struck in that area, would cause the blood to spatter/splash. So, there should be small “cast off” droplets all over their clothing.
Meanwhile the bleeding head, ground side down, is forming rivulets? Discrete rivulets? Even as it’s wet, mixing with rain water and being stirred and spread? It has only 2.5 minutes to form these rivulets, which are indicative of coagulated, not liquid, blood.
Finally, blood is sticky, so while clothing and shoes exhibit debris picked up from coming in contact with the grass, the back of the head exhibits no debris picked up at all. This, even though coagulated blood is even more sticky than liquid blood.
Thus the wounds and the bleeding had to precede GZ’s contact with TM. But then, there’s only 4 minutes and that’s spent in the rain. So, if these wounds are from some accident encountered during those 4 minutes, they still should not have coagulated, nor should the rivulets have such discrete outlines/trails. As errant raindrops will dilute the liquid blood causing it’s edges to blur.
So the required time for blood to coagulate is only available in the dry confines of the truck. But that still doesn’t provide enough time for dried blood to be observed 17 minutes later by the medics. Only by pushing the time of these injuries back to GZ’s home, provides the time and dryness needed for this to occur.
So far, as we have seen, GZ has two reasons for not wanting to go to the ER. 1. He likely has drugs in his system he doesn’t want detected. 2. He does not want his wounds professionally evaluated.
This kind of information, most likely comes from trained professional LEO’s who often take people to the ER and are just as often amazed to learn how much doctors can detect about injuries. GZ is surrounded by LEO’s from whom he can gain such advice in the course of conversation. We also expect his friend MO to have such knowledge as well.
So here’s the theory I’m working with. Since TM at the mailboxes, or even returning from 711, does not give GZ enough time to make such complex and serious preparations, TM had to be observed leaving home and that’s when notification was made, giving GZ almost a half an hour to prepare. I don’t know where TM meeting people at the 711 comes in, except to note that they extend his stay there for about 5 to 7 minutes. Not much of a delay, but it could be that they were tracking TM, giving notice that he was returning to RATL.
TM wasn’t just at RATL for that day, as we have learned, he has been there for 6 days already. More than enough time for the clandestine NW group to have focused their attention on him. Most certainly if this was some sort of initiation and they were seeking a suitable target for GZ. That cannot yet be ruled out, even though there’s little to no evidence of it, except that it would more plausibly explain all of these strange activities being mounted. So, maybe yes, maybe no, maybe we will find out or maybe not. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be aware of the theory, since the meaning of clues might be missed or misinterpreted if no theory existed to give them significance.
Are they needed? No, as I’ve said before, much of what we’re learning and discovering, will not be needed at trial. I’d hardly expect the SP to go into things that are unneeded, even if they might lead to others being involved in some auxiliary but non-criminal role. They already have more than enough on their plate.
But, clearly, a trip to the ER would be highly unindicated to anyone involved, since the danger is, if the real age of the wounds could be determined, then “notification” becomes apparent, and perhaps sparks speculations of premeditation, or a search for the “notifier(s)”.
@Lonnie
lonnie wrote:
Let me add an artifact you left out. With the nose bleeding copiously the blood should pool and/or leave a thick enough coating over areas of the lip, such that blows struck in that area, would cause the blood to spatter/splash. So, there should be small “cast off” droplets all over their clothing.
Thank you for adding that Lonnie!
Quite welcome. Has any of the techies here attempted to measure the length of the rivulets in the head shot taken at the scene, with the ones in the cop shop photos? If the length is the same, that means that the blood in the first photo was no longer flowing, otherwise the trails would be longer in the photos taken later.
This is important because, since blood doesn’t coagulate in under 6 minutes and wet blood would take even longer, that would indicate that the wounds to GZ had to happen before GZ and TM could even come into contact.
Also, as someone reminded me, GZ’s bail hearing material would not come into the trial, because it happened after 2-26-12. I had to remind them that, that would only be the case, if MOM did not elicit testimony that GZ “a decent American” or anything like that. Because that would open the door and allow the SP to show the jurors just how decent an American GZ really is! :_D
I hope our resident Techies take that on, that would be interesting to review.
Where’s Tchoupi when we need him, eh? Oh well, I understand he’s burdened with work now. I’m hardly surprised since he displayed his bonafides, I’d guess he is in demand. Good for him.
In his last communique that I saw, he had some hopes of coming back to the fray if possible.
Good question, where is our bcclister Tchoupi? I hope he is well. You know he had that surgery awhile back. Prolly overlaoded at work. But he would just love the new video by Dave. All the inside workings of the clubhouse. I can not wait for him to take it apart, or Amsterdam or Whonoze.
@Lonnie,
I have mulled over your theory about the NW’ers and have come up with a few things.
First, I agree with you on the points given about not going to the ER and more importantly, the recommendation from his own doctor or PA to go to ENT. He has stated on the reenactment video , that there was nothing that could of been done regarding his nose, because of the swelling is utter bull shitake. There was no visible swelling from the pictures taken @ 11:21 at the cop shop. Second, a trip to ER would of most certainly would of done several things. Documentation of testing for drugs and or alcohol. Also, very skilled Emergency Unit Doctors would of diagnose the injuries, right then and that they were not life threatening.
Tracking TM for a couple of days:
Even though it might sound out there to some, it is totally possible that people were watching TM come and go.
But it does beg the question for some poeple at the Retreat, If they saw him leave a residence, he had to belong there?
Or maybe they saw him in the neighborhood without being seen entering a residence?
I tend to lean to the idea that it had to do with Burgess that may have lead to them tracking TM.
Burgess was a resident, and a thief.
They profiled Trayvon to be the same, in their eyes of course. This makes it totally possible that he was tracked for days before the encounter.
Things that I think made NW’ers look at that fit Trayvon that fit Burgess also.
He’s Black. Check
He’s gone into a house they he may live in. Check
He’s walking in the neighborhood. Check
He’s wearing a hoodie. Check
If the case being, that they were comparing Trayvon to the Burgess situation, it is perfectly logically for the NW bunch to track the movements of Trayvon, thinking they had another one.
But they were wrong! GZ WAS WRONG! And no one including GZ is going to own up to that one! Unless we have the phone records corresponding to one another of said group. And all that is going to prove is that there was communication between them, not what was said.
Another thing I thought of, was the questioning that people hear in the 911 calls, “I don’t know them”. If they thought Trayvon was part of a circle of possible thieves, this question also makes sense for GZ to be demanding from TM while restraining him.
We all know that GZ had an open line of communication with LE, and Dorival. How much information did he actually have about Burgess and when? Did the others know in the neighborhood about Burgess? When did they know? Did they talk about how to prevent this from happening again as far as “live in” thief at the Retreat?
Questions and more questions to ponder.
But the only difference is he wasn’t the one that caught Burgess!
He had to catch one on his own! Your theory does work on alot of levels regarding the people @ The Retreat.
I too am working on the 7-11 video. I have almost every picture of all the listed witnesses 1-22, with the exception of 1,3,6,9,10,17,& 21. I am only really interested in number six. I can pretty much rule out most of the people on my missing picutres list, but not number six. Witness 26 & 27 are the Ostermans. Witness 42 is Cynthia Wibker. Her name has been published in newpaper articles so I can post her name. I am still narrowing down possible suspects that left the 7-11 after TM but timing it with TM arriving @ the mailboxes at 6:54. That may have alerted GZ. I have only one viable suspect. I need number six picture to rule him out. Then its just left up to the people at the retreat, who were home, not out and about.
Boy, those phone records of GZ will be very interesting indeed.
Well, the FBI casts a very wide net when they open a case, so those boys at the 711 would not escape detection/investigation. Their phone records would be pulled immediately to see if it could be determined if the knew TM or played any role in it.
While the FBI and CIA will call us “conspiracy theorist” if we formulate and discuss a wide range of theories about a thing, that is exactly what they do themselves. They’ll take 10 pieces of evidence and create 100 theories, when the get piece 11, they’ll discard 95 theories and build 95 more to replace them, so as to be ready for piece no. 12 to come in and repeat the process. Otherwise, seemingly insignificant pieces of evidence would have no frame to reference and thus would appear to be meaningless. When, in fact, it could be a really major clue.
When I first suspected that MO had a hand in, I immediately wove theories around him, so that as we learned more, the pattern fleshed out, which it would not have done without the frame having been established. Then he appeared at the bank, then he appeared at the scene, then again at the station, then helping Shelly remove the truck, he just kept popping up. All the while trying his best to pretend that his relationship with GZ was so very casual. Meanwhile he had very good reasons to have a very keen high level interest in everything that happened. They’re all trying to play it like that, they hardly knew GZ at all, except for a few isolated casual encounters, the ones they could not possibly deny.
I still see a very good chance that someone will break down and give someone up.
@Lonnie
You wrote:
Well, the FBI casts a very wide net when they open a case, so those boys at the 711 would not escape detection/investigation. Their phone records would be pulled immediately to see if it could be determined if the knew TM or played any role in it.
I was thinking about them at the mailboxes with TM, but then I crossed that out only because they came in a car. If Trayvon knew them he would of hitched a ride back to the complex with them. But that doesn’t mean that some other teens may have been there.
Trayvon finishes his transaction at the 7-11 @6:24. He waits six minutes before he even leaves the front of the store @ 6:30 He can be see walking past the window.
My other side theory that I am still working on is this.
Let’s say for argument sake that there are a group of boys at the mailbox. Let’s also say for argument sake that someone does alert GZ about a group of boys there. Possibly smoking Black and Milds together. But from a distance it looks like Blunts. IIRC, Whonoze and I was discussing this on another blog. To be clear to everyone, I am not saying at all that they were smoking weed, but just to put it into a perspective view of SOMEONE else’s view of what they may have thought they saw and called GZ.
I would find it totally OK to smoke with someone outside even if I didn’t know them, if I was a teenager. Me being a cigarette smoker, I know this. Done it plenty of times myself young and older.
So they are there hanging out there is plenty of space to move about. Smoke, wait out the rain that is coming down. Then a car rolls by. The others already know what’s up. They leave. TM is standing there. He is waiting for the rain to pass over. But no, this car stops and he sees a person watching him. He sees this car U-turn. TM knows he ain’t doing nothing wrong, but yet its better to move along. He moves. He is followed by a car. He picks up pace. Now this guy is on foot following him.
You know the rest but I will inject this and it fits along also with this scenario.
From the previous post regarding GZ NW’ers. We discussed about GZ questioning TM in regards to people hearing on the 911 call “I don’t know them”
If TM was not alone at the mailboxes and there were other teens, just standing there with him. And they scattered when they saw his truck stopped. The answer still fits the question “I don’t know them”.
Your thoughts?
.
First off, I wasn’t aware that these three at the store were moving around by car, do you have the link so I can read? thanks.
Next is that, TM is talking to DD all day, with these kinds of calls people run out of things to say very often and go to describing minutia. I doubt DD would not be informed if anyone joined TM’s company.
I remember reading that the “Burgess group” was three blacks and a white guy. I really don’t know what race the other two at the store were, because I had no reason to focus on them and lately I’ve been to busy to have another look yet. I just noted that with Burgess in jail his group would now number three. A real coincidence if these are the guys at the store. TM probably wouldn’t want to associate with these guys, but as casual acquaintances you’d want to stay on good terms with just about everyone. So, even if they were “bad boys” simple courtesies wouldn’t be ruled out.
Ride with them? Obviously they didn’t offer, and even if they did TM didn’t either ask or accept. Still, even if they are “bad boys” that doesn’t preclude them from also being GZ’s new crew. His police connections make him a good person to know, even for the criminals in the neighborhood. In fact, a man who can walk in on the Chief of Police, would be a good man for many police officers to know, eh? I’m pretty sure it doesn’t take long for police to get to know people who frequently show up at the station house, most especially those who know the Chief.
If they came from RATL and traveled by car, that makes them even more curious since they could have tracked TM all the way for GZ.
@Lonnie,
Lonnie wrote:
First off, I wasn’t aware that these three at the store were moving around by car, do you have the link so I can read? thanks
I saw it in the 7-11 video, not sure of time but will post in a minute.
Lonnie wrote:
Next is that, TM is talking to DD all day, with these kinds of calls people run out of things to say very often and go to describing minutia. I doubt DD would not be informed if anyone joined TM’s company.
No one asked her.
Remember way back when when we were discussing the interview of DeeDee? Some of the posters here had made some comments about how he was asking DeeDee the questions. Very rushed. Didn’t give her a comfortable setting. Stuff like that. Do you remember I posted that if I was BDLR, I would of made sure a black woman attorney should of been there, to make her more comfortable. Let her see that there was a woman there that was in a suit like Bernie. Well if you don’t remember that’s fine. My point is I think a woman attorney would of been better at asking questions of a teenaged girl. Let’s say for argument sake that he was with other teens, if you look it from eyes, do you think that would matter? She has to talk about Trayvon being followed by a creepy guy in a car. I am thinking if that was known to her, it would of fallen to the wayside.
JMHO though.
I have to differ with you on that one point. Trayvon is gone, so every little detail would matter. She wants to tell her story. If there were guys close by and she heard them, she’d say so, even without being asked. Remember, no one asked her if she could hear “grass noises”, she volunteered that because that’s what she heard.
She’s a witness, so she knows that her testimony will help catch TM’s killer. That is something that she wants to happen, so she’s not going to either lie and destroy her own usefulness, or omit things and let other possible witnesses go unsought.
If she even hinted that someone was at the mailboxes with TM, they’d be sought after. GZ, meanwhile, would testify about them, because that could help establish his story. Especially since he could then claim that he believed that TM was part of a gang that was there and that gave him reason to fear for his life. GZ would certainly have seen them and for sure he would have used it.
Meanwhile, as the evidence against GZ acting alone keeps piling up, some are trying to dismiss it as mere coincidence. All I can say is: Coincidences don’t come in that flavor.
I’ll give you that.
Very sound arguement.
But I will keep it in the very, very back burner for now…
🙂
You couldn’t be more fair minded than that. I too have a lot on those “back burners” as well. Good that we all understand that we’re all groping around in the dark for the truth. We have very few things here, that we can insist are true. But they are “dots” on the page, and we’re speculating on how to connect them.
@Lonnie
Thank you, kind sir.
I will continue on connecting dots. 🙂
@Lonnie
You wrote:
Well, the FBI casts a very wide net when they open a case, so those boys at the 711 would not escape detection/investigation. Their phone records would be pulled immediately to see if it could be determined if the knew TM or played any role in it.
I was thinking about them at the mailboxes with TM, but then I crossed that out only because they came in a car. If Trayvon knew them he would of hitched a ride back to the complex with them. But that doesn’t mean that some other teens may have been there.
Trayvon finishes his transaction at the 7-11 @6:24. He waits six minutes before he even leaves the front of the store @ 6:30 He can be see walking past the window.
My other side theory that I am still working on is this.
Let’s say for argument sake that there are a group of boys at the mailbox. Let’s also say for argument sake that someone does alert GZ about a group of boys there. Possibly smoking Black and Milds together. But from a distance it looks like Blunts. IIRC, Whonoze and I was discussing this on another blog. To be clear to everyone, I am not saying at all that they were smoking weed, but just to put it into a perspective view of SOMEONE else’s view of what they may have thought they saw and called GZ.
I would find it totally OK to smoke with someone outside even if I didn’t know them, if I was a teenager. Me being a cigarette smoker, I know this. Done it plenty of times myself young and older.
So they are there hanging out there is plenty of space to move about. Smoke, wait out the rain that is coming down. Then a car rolls by. The others already know what’s up. They leave. TM is standing there. He is waiting for the rain to pass over. But no, this car stops and he sees a person watching him. He sees this car U-turn. TM knows he ain’t doing nothing wrong, but yet its better to move along. He moves. He is followed by a car. He picks up pace. Now this guy is on foot following him.
You know the rest but I will inject this and it fits along also with this scenario.
From the previous post regarding GZ NW’ers. We discussed about GZ questioning TM in regards to people hearing on the 911 call “I don’t know them”
If TM was not alone at the mailboxes and there were other teens, just standing there with him. And they scattered when they saw his truck stopped. The answer still fits the question “I don’t know them”.
Your thoughts?
@Lonnie
lonnie wrote:
When I first suspected that MO had a hand in, I immediately wove theories.
You and me both. He is very high on my radar. I have him along for the ride. I am still trying to lock him down on the clubhouse videos. Work in progress 🙂
Lonnie also wrote:
I still see a very good chance that someone will break down and give someone up.
Me too.
Who are you betting on?
The one with the least amount to lose or the one with alot to lose if they don’t spill their guts?
John, who changed his “MMA” story, seems like the weakest link. He over embellished his testimony so far away from reality, it’s almost obvious that he has some “dog in the hunt”, that he’s now trying to back away from. After all, a completely uninterested witness has no reason to lie. I mean, why tell a lie that might be discovered and throw the spotlight on yourself? Unless you had a very compelling reason for doing so. A reason to hope that this case will be put to rest really fast. Such a compelling reason would be, that you played some part in it all, and are hoping to keep that concealed, by providing aid to closing the investigation real quick.
@Lonnie,
My first thought of embellishing from “John” is this:
What he saw that night was George in an altercation with a young black male. They all jumped to the same conclusions that this shooting was somehow warranted. They all thought, well not all thought, most of them thought well he’s black. He had to be doing something wrong. Then he goes around and starts telling people he was getting beat up. By the time everyone hears that GZ called Nen, followed, got out of his car. Then find out that Trayvon actually lived there and had no weapon. The people who had backed GZ in small ways, now reconsidered their position and changed or and gave more clarity to their statements when FDLE started questioning them. You and I know which ones stayed true to their statements.
How much explaining did GZ do the night of the shooting? Did he tell his detailed story that night, or did that not happen until the next day?
@gblock,
First Written statement taken @ the cop shop. 2/26/12
Click to access written_statement_0226.pdf
@gblock,
I posted another link to his statement in a different reply box because it is bigger and clearer to read then on Axiom. It is there as well and the the audio interviews with Singleton and Serino. Hope this helps…..
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audio/george-zimmermans-statements-sanford-pd-audio/
@gblock
Video reenactment done 2/27/12 @ 5:20pm
Very interesting you two. but let me add a few things that might narrow down some of your therories.
@Brownie, Trayvon was alone on the walk to the store because remember he was hanging at the house that night for the purpose of watching the ALLStar stuff and he was kinda babysitting. The game was going to start around 7:30 i think.
But he was talking on the phone with DD on the way there and back. He was still talking inside the 7/11.
I don’t think Tray knew those kids at all. but i don’t see any reason he wouldn’t have asked them to buy a B&M for him once he sees them pull up. So, I think he did get a b&m from the other kids at the store. But he smoked it on the way back. Maybe he was still smoking it at the mailboxes, but not with anyone else. He was just there because it started raining and it was a little chilly for us floridians. it’s common for it to rain for a 2-5 min and stop. as a matter of fact DD said she was talking to him while he was at the mailboxes didn’t she?? so then it wouldn’t make sense he’d be there with other people, especially a bunch of guys standing around smoking and talking to a girl.
@ Lonnie, i don’t know why you seem hesitant to point clearly at Osterman! He’s there man!! He’s everywhere! He’s even there minutes before the crime- right down the street at the bank! And then he’s there at the scene so lickity-split, that he had time to pick up shellie and make it to GZ’s side before GZ gets a ride from his other buddy T.Smith to the pokey! Which one of those fools in the police car was T.Smith i’d like to know?
But the fact that GZ and Osterman have a standing monthly date with each other to go shooting and play cops and robbers and buy guns seems like they are very comfortable together. And after what we all know about the time they spent together after the crime, it makes sense they would be close enough to plan if not this murder than a murder like it! Really what else are these guns for Lonnie? A 9mm w. hollow points aren’t for hunting squirrels!
Lets also remember GZ could not pass the psychological and background to become a citizen patrol guy! That’s some serious shit! That means he is mentally UNSUITABLE to be a mere glorified, city sanctioned, official NW guy!
Remember his record too. He’s been caught/told on, for domestic abuse and arrested for assaulting a cop! These are just tips of the iceberg, B/C we all know that ol saying: A drunk driver will drive drunk 200 times before he gets caught once!
GZ is a F’ing murderer. He killed a 17 y.o. and to this day doesn’t give a shit. You should remember what you wrote about him a couple months ago. I’ve found one of your posts from awhile ago that had me so upset i was sick about it for days!!
I’ll post it soon.
@Shannon
Thank you so much for your comment. It’s funny you should mention the black and mild. I wrote a whole scenario regarding that very thing on another blog. I will post the link on your blog in a moment.
Shannon wrote:
So then it wouldn’t make sense he’d be there with other people, especially a bunch of guys standing around smoking and talking to a girl.
This is exactly what teenaged boys do. It makes perfect sense to me that a bunch guys just smoking and one guy off to himself talking to a girl is what teenage boys do. JMO though.
I value your input very much Shannon, but I am going to disagree with you on this one, I am keeping it on the “Board of Possibilities”
🙂
So as to avoid seeming too much of a conspiracy theorist, I try to avoid putting out what I think of MO. If you ask me? He’s a rogue LEO! Which is why he even bothers to consort with GZ, because he wanted to use GZ as a tool for his own designs. There, does that help any?
blushedbrown – Thanks for the links. Lately I’ve been having trouble finding the Trayvon Martin case info on axiomamnesia.
I agree with Shannon, by the way. There is no need to introduce the possibility of Trayvon smoking with other boys at the mailboxes. So far, we have seen no evidence of them, and we know that Trayvon was talking to DeeDee on his cellphone while he was hanging out at the mailboxes.
@gblock
Axiom has been lax on supplying more information on the case. Don’t know whats going on there, but it is what it is.
I am totally aware that there is no evidence of my possible scenario.
As we all know, DeeDee places Trayvon @ the mailboxes. GZ even confirms this.
Lonnie, I disagree with your theories about GZ’s injuries. You seem to be making this out to be like a lot of TV crime shows, where the perpetrator goes through all kinds of stuff to try to keep himself or herself from being suspected.
I actually doubt that GZ was thinking ahead of time that if he detained a “suspect” that he would be breaking the law, so he had better set things up to make the other guy look guilty, and therefore by implication make himself look like a victim and/or a hero. In his mind, the black kid was suspicious, and he was the good guy, and therefore detaining and questioning him for the police would be seen as good and appropriate. Yes, he had taken criminal justice classes and should have known better. But his C and D grades indicate that, for whatever reason, a lot of the stuff that was being taught in the classes really wasn’t sticking in his mind too well.
Creating the head and facial injuries ahead of time is also unnecessary in order to explain the facts about the blood. The “bloody nose” photo in the police car was not taken immediately when the police arrived on the scene, and the police station photos were not taken until several hours after the arrival at the police station. So, the state of the blood (in terms of congealing and drying) is probably consistent with him getting on-scene injuries.
Also, if he got most of his injuries by running through, or falling against, a large bush, it is likely that they would be shallow enough for the EMTs not to deem a trip to the ET to be medically necessary. (I am not sure that this is what caused the injuries, but I think that it is one of several reasonable possibilities.)
The idea you have posted is internally inconsistent with itself.
Leave out the front of face injuries first and concentrate on the
back of the head injuries.
Now, proceed from there! A photo, taken of the back of GZ’s head, happened some seconds before the police arrived, because once Ofc Smith arrives it is no longer possible to take this photo.
Okay, that first photo of the back of GZ’s head is taken approximately, no longer than 2.5 minutes after the wounds could have first been opened, according to the narrative given.
Now, imagine that was fresh wet blood when the wound first began to bleed!
That wound would have been opened by the head being bashed on wet concrete. The narrative states that this continued to happen for 1 minute. So, there were more bashes to come. Can you imagine the blood flow being like what is shown in the first picture? With blood trail rivulets, each with distinct edges?
If so, we then take the next step. After this repeated bashing of the head on wet concrete, and there is wet liquid blood flowing from wounds on the back of the head. Now that same head is being dragged/rolled along in wet grass.
Okay, are you still able to imagine that after that activity, that the wet blood would still have discrete trails down the back of the head?
If so, then let’s apply the third factor. During the first minute the blood flow is off the back of the head to the ground directly, because of the angle of the head, thus the trails to be seen in the photo, cannot have formed then. Sometime was spent with the head on the wet grass, so those seconds need to be subtracted from the remaining 1.5 minutes, because those rivulets cannot form if the head is not upright.
Thus you now have less than 1.5 minutes or less than 90 seconds for GZ to get upright and for the wet liquid blood to flow into those rivulets and stop flowing.
Okay, do you believe that blood can become fixed in 90 seconds or less? Those rivulets are actually fixed, because if you look at the pictures taken at the police station, you will see that they are still the same.
Okay, so what does it mean that the picture taken at the scene has the exact same blood trails seen later in the police station pictures? The answer is: It means that the blood in the first photo had ceased flowing! If it had not ceased to flow, then pictures taken later would show that the blood trails had changed, if only to have become longer. For them to match, the blood has to be in the same position later, that it was 90 seconds after the head became upright. Because only after the head became upright, could the blood trails begin to form. That time is less than 90 seconds.
So, then, it becomes obvious by deduction, that the blood trails were formed some time prior to the picture being taken, that is not only in excess of 6.5 minutes (the time it takes for undiluted blood to congeal) but in an area that is dry enough so that rain does not dilute it and blur the edges of the rivulets.
The only place where GZ’s head had an opportunity to be held in a dry place, was while he was in his truck. But then that doesn’t satisfy all of the blood evidence.
Within half an hour of the supposed injuries starting to bleed, in the rain, in high humidity and at 60 degrees, there should be no dried blood for well over an hour. Instead the medics are noting that there is dried blood present. That means that after the wounds started bleeding, they had to be kept dry and probably warm as well for over 30 minutes. It’s only some 15 minutes after GZ leaves home, until the photo of the back of his head is taken.
Conclusion: The wounds were opened before he left home!
And I’m using conservative drying/concealing times. It is more likely that any practical tests will yield even longer times being needed to dry his blood under near similar conditions.
Study the above more carefully so as not to make the same mistake you first made.
“Even though it might sound out there to some, it is totally possible that people were watching TM come and go.”
blushed brown – Yes, this does sound out there. Trayvon would probably have been inside most of the time. For them to track him as you suggest, they would probably have to watching for many hours a day, or at least many times a day. Also, if they had seen him repeatedly, why did GZ wait as long as he did? If detaining him as a suspect was their intent all along, and if they had observed him on multiple occasions, why did GZ not attempt it on an earlier day or time?
It is possible that one or more of them had briefly seen Trayvon at one or two earlier times. And I am certainly not ruling out the possibility that Osterman, Taaffe, and/or Shellie had some involvement in this prior to GZ’s verbal and physical contact with Trayvon. But, I think that for the first part, GZ’s going after Trayvon on this occasion was primarily based on opportunity, with his recklessness possibly increased by his having consumed a drink or two.
Since Trayvon had been there for a week, it is totally plausible that they all knew he was there. Remember they are NW. They were probably annoyed that he was there in the first place and watched him. Perhaps they saw him outside with the child that lives in the condo where he was visiting or maybe he stood on the porch or in the yard. That evening they saw him leave the house, it was dark, and they had a golden opportunity.
Yes, but even then, what remains is to get him out of the house at night. His parents say that he hasn’t been to the store on foot before. So, he’s only seen the store while they were driving, so he gained a general idea of how to get there.
But, ask yourself, why does he only buy iced tea and skittles? A 17 year old, as we know has quite an appetite for candy and chips etc., Which is why his father gave him 40 dollars to go to a movie which only cost 10 bucks. My guess is he expects Trayvon will want popcorn, hot dogs and candy.
So, now, after this trip to the store, what is it Trayvon is intending to do? He’s planning to watch a 2 hour long basketball game on tv. So, you’d think he’d want some snacks, like chips and such. He only gets iced tea for himself and skittles for Chad. Which he either has exact change for, or he gives his change to those guys he met at the store. He had only the 40 dollars and a dime found on him.
But, we see at he store that he pays and gets back change. So, if he didn’t break the 2 twenties, he had another bill that was enough to pay for his purchases and get back change, likely a dollar or two.
So, deductive reasoning says he most likely paid with a 5 dollar bill, and his change was somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.10.
I understand. those boys he met at the store, were driving. They also lived at RATL, and they didn’t offer TM a lift or he refused or some such. So, isn’t that the kind of trip to the store, one would make if the real goal wasn’t to go out to obtain snacks for the game? But, more like a trip one would make for a meeting. Where everything else was secondary. If these were acquaintances, people who Trayvon barely knew, he’d be so curious and not a little bit anxious, enough to suppress any thoughts about snacks for the game. He wasn’t scared, but just anxious enough to be preoccupied. That suggest that these boys set the meet that was the lure.
Is it possible that TM was bored and went to 7-11 to just get out of the house? Kids like to “post.” Many, many kids come to school but don’t make it to the classroom. Their main reason for coming to school is to socialize. The store clerk didn’t remember TM so obviously nothing of note took place in the store. If I were a clerk, alone with people milling around outside, I would observe the group to see if anything suspicious is going on. TM was probably bored to death in a neighborhood where he knew no one, it was rainy, and nothing to do but watch the game. Doesn’t mean he wanted to go commit a crime but he at least wanted to change scenery for a few minutes.
He’s a new face in the neighborhood, likely has family and friends elsewhere, so not likely to be missed around here. Just the kind of person one would want for this plan. Was he check out by any of GZ LEO friends? We don’t know. We do know that it’s easy enough to run the plate on his fathers car. MO, the Chief? Who could do it without having their “fingerprints” on the search.
In any event, here’s GZ’s ideal target, regardless of who actually picked him. Trouble is, he doesn’t come out of the house at all after dark. Monday is a school day, so the choice is, if not tonight maybe they’ll leave. The plan needs to get him out of the house somehow. Or… Should they just wait and hope that he does something he has never done before?
Those are pretty bare picking for a night time trip to the store, in the rain, with a 2.5 hour game to watch. So, what kept TM’s mind off of snacks? Probably the anxiety of making this trip in the first place.
It looks like he asked for a black and mild at the store, but he didn’t get one. He could have asked those boys to get him one, but, if he did, it seems more likely they didn’t get him one either. So, where is TM’s change, from what obviously was a five dollar bill? He gave those boys 2 dollars for what?
Given what happens later, it seems that it all comes together, just a wee bit to precisely to be mere happenstance.
So, it’s either luck he goes to the store at that time, or he was lured out to the store at that time. How many think it was just dumb luck that TM went to the store at that time?
I’ve got to take a close look at the video. I didn’t see interaction.
Best to look at several, because they differ due to the posters skills, the copy they’ve posted and some of them even have the sound, while some do not. The ones with sound were released and therefore posted later than the ones without sound. I haven’t made a study of it, I’ve just seen 6 or seven different ones over time, as I come across links are posted here and elsewhere.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not “pushing a narrative”. I’m working and re-working theories that could possibly explain the evidence we have.
Someone here has mentioned that we’re told, presumably by Mr. Martin or Ms Green, that Trayvon did not go to the store before alone. I don’t yet know if that means for all the trips he has taken to RATL, or just for the last 6 days he’s been there. Most likely he was in the habit of waiting for his father or Ms Green to go to the store and ride along with them. So, the one time he does it, he get’s killed, that makes it a standout.
So, it stands to reason that nothing at all about that night, should be treated as coincidental, until it can be eliminated as having no other cause. Why? Well, because the only witness is a proven liar, and he’s getting help from some very strange places, for some very strange reasons and in extremely strange ways. Obviously there are people who, have an interest in preventing the “chips” from falling as they may.
I’m still not reading the transcripts, because I’ve yet not had what I’m looking for gel. But it is beginning to.
This was no “crime of opportunity” for one thing, and for exactly the reasons you suggest, how many hours of watching it would have taken to effect this plan. No, there’s more to this case, hidden in the background than we’re seeing. But, until you can pick up where the bias lay, reading the evidence won’t lead to it, all it will do is distract and confuse.
On the face of it there was quite some planning under way. The necessary elements of such a plan are just becoming visible, however faintly. Why not another day or time? Well that’s “just the way the cookie crumbles”. You have a finished plan, you probably don’t get to chose the most ideal time to execute. Perhaps on other days people were out of place or other things stood in the way.
All we know is, if there was a plan, it did execute on this day! It serves no purpose yet, to ask why not any other day, place or time.
You should not try to refute facts with the wrong questions. We’re trying to discover things we do not know, so for sure we’re going to make mistakes, we’ve been making them here from day one! That, in no way means that the investigation is useless, simply because we don’t know the facts.
@gblock
gblock wrote:
For them to track him as you suggest, they would probably have to watching for many hours a day, or at least many times a day.
Not necessarily.
Lookit, I am trying to view it from other people’s views from the Retreat. Think about it for just a second. You are a resident of the Retreat. They were already wary of young black males in the neighborhood. Can we agree on that? It may have been known to the residents by George about the Burgess arrest .Burgess lived in the neighborhood. He is on record from other residents, that to look out for young black males seen in the neighborhood who may be commiting crimes. A black resident who GZ was talking to, said and I quote, “I fit the profile he was describing so I stop taking walks at night in the neighborhood”. If you are the resident and see a young black male maybe once or twice, wouldn’t you not being racist or anything, think, well Burgess was a thief and he lived here, maybe he is too. Wouldn’t you being a good neighbor and all, call your local NW Captain, and say, “Hey, there is a young kid that I saw that may be up to no good, why don’t you check him out? I’ve seen him once or twice he may live here, but you remember Burgess right.
It is totally plausible. knowing the facts about what was going on @ the Retreat makes this scenario very possible.
But, what happened is GZ took matters into his own hands. He should of just called NeN and be done with it. Everything he did as soon as he left his car, was WRONG. We both can agree to that.
I appreciate the fact that you may not see it this way or that. But we can speculate can we?
gblock wrote:
Also, if they had seen him repeatedly, why did GZ wait as long as he did?
He was only there six days prior to his murder. If he was seen maybe once or twice, and then the third time maybe someone called.
Again I am only speculating.
gblock wrote:
If detaining him as a suspect was their intent all along, and if they had observed him on multiple occasions, why did GZ not attempt it on an earlier day or time?
Speculating of course,
Detaining may have been the initial thought process for GZ, but TM did not comply.
Opportunity just happen to knock for George that particular Sunday when it was dark.
Again, I like having this back and forth with you. But don’t get me wrong, I am just thinking/ looking from the other side.
Exactly, we didn’t get to where we are by not speculating. In fact, everything we’ve learned so far, discovering GZ’s lies, was learned by starting with speculations about what the evidence could mean.
If they had spotted Trayvon throughout the week, it could be that everything fell together. It may not be a well orchestrated event but it is not unreasonable to think that somone saw Trayvon walking through the neighborhood and decided to take a trip to the store.
Anything and every thing that happened that night, could have simply been mere coincidence, chance or fortuitous luck. But the problem is, things would have to coincidentally coincide on both sides. It is, therefore, highly improbable that one coincidence, just happens to coincide with a coincidentally prepared proclivity to achieve a desired goal.
It would be like throwing ten coins in the air, how many times would you have to throw them to get them all to land heads, five times in a row?
When we look at the background stories, set up by the people, the HOA and the goals and desires of the players, we can see or theorize what an optimal plan would be for the goals they’d like to achieve. So, we get to work with that now.
But, even before then, we had very little to go on, before the NeN call was released our theories were all over the place. The only constants were, TM was not armed, he was not committing any crime, he lived in the area. Then we knew that GZ was armed, was NW, and we discovered that the NW rules, if followed, would have prohibited everything GZ did that led to the death of the child.
So, then the question became: Why did GZ break all of these rules? The only rational/reasonable answer available at that time was that he was racist.
We began attempting to analyze the NeN call and the times taken to perform the actions enumerated in it. We discovered what was suspected all along, that the supposed trip to go shopping was false, and that it was unlikely that GZ could have spotted TM near FT’s place, given the story GZ told.
The evidence dump included cctv video, and tchoupi and other did studies by painfully watching hours of inaction on those vids, to quantify the “light events” seen on them. [http://tinyurl.com/d4x2y6b]
That link is my evidence pile, because posting more than one link put the post in moderation, you’ll find most everything there, including lots of links to other places and data.
They, not only confirmed that GZ was not on a shopping trip, but that he never parked at the clubhouse. They discovered that his NeN call started at 7:09 on ttl, while he was looking into the mail shed. They also saw no evidence that GZ ever stopped by FT’s place as his narrative would have required him to do.
Meaning that GZ does not arrive on TTL by accident or chance to discover TM sheltering from the rain there. It also indicates that he’s a bald faced liar, which he confirmed with the bail hearing waltz he contrived.
Now, we discover that it is very unlikely that his wounds were obtained out there at the scene, but, most likely were created while GZ was still at home. So, then, how would he coincidentally create these wounds, that he would need to support self defense claims later on that night, before he could know they would be needed?
The only reasonable answer is, he knew they would be needed, because Trayvon’s movements were being tracked, so he was able to do some preparation and planning in advance of the expected encounter. There are too many things that need to fall into place, for luck or chance to play much, if any part in it all.
@gblock
gblock wrote;
It is possible that one or more of them had briefly seen Trayvon at one or two earlier times. And I am certainly not ruling out the possibility that Osterman, Taaffe, and/or Shellie had some involvement in this prior to GZ’s verbal and physical contact with Trayvon. But, I think that for the first part, GZ’s going after Trayvon on this occasion was primarily based on opportunity, with his recklessness possibly increased by his having consumed a drink or two
I totally agree with you.
Blushed Brown says..
No blood gushing out. No swelling. Hell there is not even a Kleenex stuck in his nose.
LOLOLOLOL.. that’s funny! Dang, not even toilet paper stuck up his nose. Geesh Fogen.. Do you really think people are that stupid???
Hahaha.
Lonnie, thanks for starting the petition and then slightly off-topic but concerning “conspiracy theorist /conspiracy theories”, since after a longer excursion in the land of treehouse and Diwataman’s web nest in recent days, that topic was on my mind too quite a bit as a close second to large one racism.
It is an interesting topic.
“Conspiracy theories”, the way I see it, I and studied “conspiriologist” circles on the US web. The most prominent type usually has enormously old roots often going back to the 19th. If I were able to use more links, than this article by Arthur Goldwag. I am very, very pleased about his 2012 book on the topic. It would help in this context. In that case I could show you that I encountered this story as a very current threat around 2003/4:
The main point of conspiracy theories, and yes there are real conspiracies, corrruption or e.g. price rigging, but that’s not the ones I am interested in is to spread fear. And that is what the treehousers do mainly. At least I came away with two matters on my mind conspiracy and racism. I urgently have to read up on both topics.
I don’t think it’s an accident that Tracy Martin for them is both a gang member and a mason.
Arthur Goldwag links to a highly interesting article about the US historical mental roots of gun lobby specific conspiracies, search the link above for, I made it open with a new tap:
Diwataman had an interesting Neighborhood type of video in one of his latest articles on his top ten media fiction in the Trayvon Martin case, the most illuminating is no one, but he also has a video and he took care to point out, the “suspect” that had to be watched indeed wore a hoodie.
Bottomline: what you do here has nothing to do with conspiracy theory. Although the little that surfaced concerning the NW including that Derival never got the list with the members suggests to me that there weren’t many active members.
Here is what I collected so far, from the 2nd discovery:
You may be interested in the interogation of one of the NW captains on page 107-108. She live close, since she got to the scene early. There is a very odd blanking out in this context:
What word is covered here?
“secret”?
Sorry, Lonnie, for the extremely bad proofreading. I tried to squeeze too much additional information in without paying enough information if the rest still made sense. And occasionally it is close to impossible to understand even for me. 😉
But “secret” feels too easy. He is openly trying to make people sign up in support of his NW program. Nothing secret about the process it feels. I have to admit I wonder if it is “homeland” as shorthand for “homeland security” “neighborhood watch”.
What is interesting though, no private information can be censored in this specific context. I also assume that the censorship beyond personal information is suggested or pushed by O’Mara.
So the question is, what did he object to here and why? I have to admit I initially did not even notice it.
blushedbrown – OK, it looks like you and I may not be as far apart as I previously thought.
From your earlier entry, my impression is that you were suggesting that they had made deliberate efforts to observe Trayvon and had specifically selected him in advance to detain and question. This seems unlikely to me.
What I do believe is that GZ chose to follow Trayvon because he fit a certain profile – regardless of whether he or his friends had seen Trayvon before. In other words, it could have been a different black guy who ended up being followed, but it was Trayvon.
@gblock
Exactly. You got it, now.
It would be too far for me to suggest that the people at the Retreat were actively searching for a young black male to detain and kill, that to me seems highly unlikely also.
I do believe as you do that he was profiled. There is no way around that. For his attorney to say that he didn’t profile him, is ridiculous. We all can see that he did. Imagine this. If O’mara ask George on the stand why did you think he was suspicous? What is George going to say? He is stuck, no matter what answer he gives. He is stuck with that, that’s why it is the probable cause. The same as him telling Serino, “I was going in the same direction as he”, Serino, “Man that’s following”. No matter how he tries to pretty it up, or changes the words, George profiled and followed. Bernie will get that across in court , no doubt.
I agree with you, no matter what his friends may or may not have told him, he is the one who killed him.
“The idea you have posted is internally inconsistent with itself.”
Lonnie, did you even notice what I was saying? You repeated yourself at length, debunking the head-bashing theory again. Well, the head-bashing theory has already been debunked by many commenters on this blog, including me! I did not suggest that it was true. You are acting as though your prepared injury theory is the only possible alternative to the head-bashing theory. In fact, a number of others have been suggested.
For the record, I don’t believe the head-bashing theory, and I also don’t believe your prepared injury theory. I think it sounds like something out of a TV crime drama. I also think it is inconsistent with someone who keeps changing stories and seems to think everyone will believe the last thing that he said.
gblock, I am not very attracted to the prepared injury theory either.
The closest I ever moved to “premediation” is Fogen could have decided there and then that it may be better to not have a “witness called Trayvon Martin” alive.
With his pretrial diversion program in mind and laws against, “unlawful imprisonment” “forceful detention”. Both would have results in Florida, and he should be aware of it. For a law student any kind of conviction means wave goodbye to any chances to become a lawyer or judge.
…
Dave says:
December 18, 2012 at 7:48 am
In a fight one would use both hands. It wouldn’t be unusual for a blow with the “weak” hand to connect first.
Reply..In boxing wich is purley fist fighting Marquis of Queenberry rules..All fighters lead instictively with there weaker hand.Forinstance a left handed fighter strongest punch on his left side leads with his right hand.The object is to feel out your opppent get into a range wher you can land.And when he is vulnarable you deploy your strongest punch your left..Left handed fighters are rare about 30 percent as opposed to right handed fighters called orthadox…My wife likes to watch the ocassinal title fight or if there an up an comeing fighter I will tell her its worth a looksee.But she is not an avid boxing fan like my self.
Quite often dureing a bout she will say the commentater says he is southpaw?Whats that? I explain/ re explain neither of us are spring chickens an my memorys way wore.Anyway a round later she says you said he is left handed why does he use his right more than his left?Its simmilar to explaining offside rule in football/ urrgh soccer.She doesnt get it………..
I fully support the photos being entered as evidence. I don’t think MOM will offer them though, I think the SP will have to.
Searching mindswantono…My suspisiouns that the photo was altered stem not from expeteeze in photoshop tachniuqes.I have none an even with a pc /laptop Im a novice.Im a died in the wool trodgalite techwise an wear it with a badge of honour.Im 53 an first bought a laptop two years ago an didnt even get on line till two years later even after I got on line so to speak with a ruter ect it took a further 6 mnths before I managed to get a freind to show me the basics .This after a help information person a nice Lady from the help line hung up on me dureing a call of me asking for help settting up .I told the stoty a few years back an people were iin histerics at my incompitance.Anyway back on track I dont have the tech expertice to dicern if this photo has been altered.What getts my suss radar tracking is the fact he took this image on his mobile phone a quick snap of an event that would probably be a non event a non story no big deal another punk thug meets his deserved end..So why take this unimportant photo home so unimportant he going to forget he even has it untill 3 weeks later..Even gz was quicker than that in remembering he had a gunnnn..So he takes it home downloads it onto his pc/laptop/?….Deletes it from his cell phone because of its unimportance…Somehow manages to lose that phone within the 3 week period of forgetfullnes an I suppsoe he also claiming .He doesnt know wher the orignal cell phone is or he forgot how an where he lost it..Can you inmagine ,,,THE CREEPERS PEEPERS WHERE YOU GET THOSE FREAKERS…If Attorney Crump came out with this excuse over loseing wit 8 testomany .Wich he hasnt though an handed all relevantse over to F D L A……Three weeks later when the pressure to have gz face criminal proceadure new D A ..Corey looking at case aan possable filling of inditment .He all of a sudden remembers this photo somewhere saved on his computer .Wich he produces.An for the longest longest time State only puts out the grainy black an white looks like photo copy of a photo copy in colour an then photo copied into black an white,,The quality was attrosious .Given the quality of the colour originals we saw they had….I dont beleive in coincidences
@Colin
Do we know Wagner “took the photo home”? It is so easy to with one click email or “share” pics. He could have uploaded (or downloaded) via that route once shot or a bit later. If he did that he would have lost the original high res because the iphone 4 converts it to 8 bit Jpg on transfer.
I don´t know in which batch Wagner´s statement but would be interesting to read it again to see see if that sheds any light.
@gbrbsb
Wagner’s written statement regarding pictures, page 18 of 183.
He wrote Officer T Smith on 3/18/12 informed him no picture existed of GZ.
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/documents-2/court-documents/discovery-documents-part-1-183-pages-5152012/
yes, blushedbrown,
first discovery p. 18, report of 03/24/12
second discovery, p. 22, SOA, investigation 04/02/2012
Entered on the crime scene contamination log (second discovery p. 48, I think) created by Neil Robertson (ID S6064), who Mike Wagner (ID 2312) calls his trainee. The SOA calls him “Reserve Officer”.
While Wagner appears on the CSCL crime scene contamination log, which he orders Robertson to “maintain and control”, only Robertson’s ID appears in the call logs, 7th discovery, page 8 and 10 with his ID as on scene. Wagner’s ID 2312 (see second discovery SOA investigation) is nowhere to be found on these logs. Somehow it feels more likely the officer is entered then the “trainee”, who he accompanies him, but maybe that is just me. …
In any case considering the documents we have; only in the CSCL we can trace him on the scene and in his report 28 days after the event, to not forget in Serino’s Capias of 03/13/2012, as the officer that accompanies him to the teacher.
sorry: only Robertson’s ID S 6064 appears in the call logs, 7th discovery, page
8 and10 and 12 with his ID as on scene.Danke Leander22 !
@ blushedbrown
@Colin
Thanks for link but unless I am missing something Wagner´s statement doesn´t say he took the photos home, only that once the crime scene was secured, he checked with Lt Taylor if he (Wagner):
“…could return to my regular patrol duties. During the evening I down loaded the photo´s to my department issued lap top and deleted the photos from my personal phone”
The fact Wagner uses the expression download IMO indicates he probably emailed (or shared) the photos (the easiest way along with sharing) and then downloaded them to the laptop (I wouldn´t think they are allowed to directly connect a personal device to an official one anyway at least nowhere where I have worked… virus prevention). This is important because if Wagner emailed the photos, iphone 4 automatically reduces the original high res to a low res 650 x 870 JPG (there are complex tricks and apps to avoid it but most people don´t know especially if not computer savvy or they don´t need high res). It explains why the image was a low res JPG and not high res which has been one of the reasons for some to believe it was retouched.
isn’t it odd that both Wagner AND the photographer witness BOTH forgot about thier pics of that night?
i guess it’s almost everyday they take pics of murder scenes.
Yep,
They are just regular CSI agents that have so many cases, they forget those pictures. (snark) hehehe
Isn’t it *odd* both Officer Wagner’s and witness #3’s *forgotten* photo images were both *found* the same day (21 March) ?
Had FDLE not taken over the investigation on 15 March fogen would’ve gotten away with murder (as was the intention of Osterman,Wolfinger, Lee and friends)
What a Coinkydink! 🙂
Remember, it wasn’t a murder scene at the time; it was a self-defense scene at the time.
LOL.
blushedbrown, Sure. Or Bitte, you are welcome.
gbrbsb, yes the decisive factor is expertise. A friend who is an expert or professional on these matters tells me all exif or general information contained after editing via Photoshop can be edited. If I understood correctly this seems to be even offered concerning the diverse modification steps. I didn’t want to keep him on the topic for too long, thus to be handled with care.
I use Gimp, and never thought about how it would work there, because I never once bothered. But of course I edited many photos, especially older scanned photos.
See, we aren’t the only ones who think it was murder!
i’m surprised to hear someone else without the benefit of all of our collective research and ideas and all the months we’ve had together discussing the evidence and Prof’s expertise and all the docu dumps, has come to these same conclusions as we have!!
So to me this guy’s video shows me that ANYONE who listens to the very minimum of facts in this case will come to the same conclusion as we have. GZ is guilty of murder 2.
BTW, warning: don’t watch if foul language offends you.
That was beautiful.
TheAmazingAtheist is one of my favs
he has all types of other great vids
that’s good to know, i’ll watch more.
but i’ve never seen him till today! it just popped up on my you tube!
Great Work!
He makes sense. Honestly, the defendant should have been arrested a long time ago and then they could continue investigation afterwards. I would not doubt if some witnesses were too scared to come forward because the cops failed to protect a kid, so who knows, the defendant could have went after them too, because it is not like they were finna arrest the defendant at first for killing. In fact, it has already been proven that there is witness intimidation in the form of Deedee being threatened. Look at all his vile supporters, the defendant’s. They are all leeches and pieces of crap of society and one of the reasons that society at large is messed up. They are the people who shoot up schools, malls, and neighborhoods and then refuse justice and safety of people.
From the Justice for Trayvon site:
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“Read George Zimmerman Police Report
The following is the official police report filed on February 26, 2012 after Sanford, Police officers responded to calls that resulted in the discovery of slain 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. Trayvon Martin was gunned down by George Zimmerman after what appeared to be a failed case of paranoid racial profiling. George Zimmerman was not arrested or charged with a crime.”
CLICK>>
http://www.scribd.com/charisse_horn_1/d/86400326-Trayvon-Martin-Police-Report
Interesting that neither Ayala nor Smith mention the guy who immediately came out, took a couple of pics and inquired about the weapon used. Did he duck back into the house? The first aid kit was on his back patio, I think. He gets to wander around the crime scene after the tape is up and media has arrived.
Who is this guy?
My guess is that the JonW13 photo and Wagner photo will be admitted at trial because the prosecution will not object. Corey will not want to touch the Photoshopping question since it has to have been done at the bidding of someone in LEO, and she doesn’t want to go there.
Instead, my guess is the prosecution will call medical experts to testify that the injuries shown in the photo may look nasty, but are actually inconsequential. The experts will explain that the path of the blood trails in the JonW13 pic contradict fogenfart’s claim that he was underneath Trayvon for the duration of the struggle. They will also compare both pics to a photo array of people who actually have been the victims of beatings to the head of the type fogenfart described, and the contrast will totally belie his claims. If they’re really smart, they’ll get a former pro wrestler to explain the blood-steams-down the face trick wrestlers use, and he’ll react with such disgust at the idea that the W13 pic shows a serious injury, that fogenwimp will come off as the pussyfoger he really is. (Jesse Ventura would be perfect for just such a rebuttal. I’m sure as a former Navy SEAL as well as a wrestler, he knows what a face looks like after a genuine beat-down as well.)
IMO, the pic from W13 and the ones from the police station will be the most compelling evidence the State has showing a defendant who’s lying about the core of his defense.
I doubt even a jury from Pinellas County would believe blood runs uphill.
I’ve had my tears run UP my forehead….
As when as a little guy my older brother hung my upside down from the clothesline 😐
Nice!
@ LLMPapa
Maybe you could add another pic on the Imgur, the same one as GZ “on his back” but flipped so he’s looking down at himself looking up in the other pic, and add a bit of text, something like “Does the blood trail say he was on the top, or the bottom?”
My ‘Nice’ was for your idea for putting him on his back, not for mountainmanpat. I wasn’t endorsing being hung upside down by your family. Look what it did to fogen! 🙂
Always remember to include the time. The photo purports to show blood flows, from wounds, opened no more that 2.5 minutes earlier, after repeated bashing on wet concrete (note that the force of said bashing did not disturb the blood paths from forming rivulets with discrete and well defined edges), then rolled in wet grass (note that this rolling in the wet grass did not disturb the blood paths from forming rivulets with discrete and well defined edges again). Where GZ then stood upright for less than a minute and was photographed.
If you compare this back of the head photo, with the photos taken later at the station, the blood trails are exactly the same! Meaning that the picture taken at the scene, is displaying blood that is no longer traveling or running in the rain. Which, in turn means that it has been already coagulated.
Since the supposed/claimed “fight” lasted less than 2.5 minutes, and the bleeding needed more than 6 minutes to coagulate, the wounds had to be more than 6 minutes old. Meaning that they occurred before GZ could have made contact with Trayvon!
For the blood to still be liquid in the first photo, the rivulets need to appear longer in the later station photo. Since they do not, that means, and I repeat, that the blood flows were coagulated in the photo taken at the scene only 2.5 minutes after being claimed to have been freshly opened, in rain, then rubbed on wet surfaces.
So, now can we put any Trayvon attack to rest? Trayvon could not have wounded GZ, at a minimum of 4 minutes before the “fight” happened, because they had not even come in contact with each other at that time.
Tell the defense to put that in their pipe and smoke it!!!
@whonoze
Good idea! LOL
“I doubt even a jury from Pinellas County would believe blood runs uphill” No, we wouldn’t and what’s wrong with Pinellas County?
Blood flow demonstration.
Eric says:
December 19, 2012 at 6:14 am
“I doubt even a jury from Pinellas County would believe blood runs uphill” No, we wouldn’t and what’s wrong with Pinellas County?
——–
Really? I guess you don’t know about Casey Anthony and how bad the Pinellas County jurors effed up?
If you do a Google search for “Witness #13 refutes George Zimmerman’s story – Youtube” , it plays Witness 13’s statement right after playing the reenactment video where George says he was on top of Trayvon when Witness 13 came out. Witness 13 says that George was standing when Witness 13 came out.
Thought I’d mention that I’m getting some spam mail in the names of some posters here – obviously Fogenites at work. I’ve received other mail made to look like mail from Facebook friends. I don’t believe this is a case of my computer address book being compromised, but of someone using accessible online information to harrass me.
That’s terrible of them! For the record, I, for one, have not sent emails to any of you posters here.
How did they get you email address, Two sides?
Why don’t we agree that nobody here e-mails anybody else here with their Leatherman Thread names, and that if there is e-mail between and among any of us, it has been arranged beforehand. That way the spam and phish stuff gets deleted automatically and immediately.
I’m a freelancer and work online, so it’s quite easy to find me.
I simply send the spam e-mails to my ISP’s spam system as well as block the spammers’ addresses within my own system.
And of course, delete the e-mails when I’m done with all the above.
@Malisha, agreed!
BUT anyone can contact me on my blog page if they want.
i don’t give a flying fluck who knows my name, i dare them to come up to my face and show themselves!
Here is the link list of all the DISPATCH reports of gz NEN (or 911) calls starting in 2005. Axiom collected these before the SPD deleted them from their website. Axiom Amnesia posted these on March 25, 2012 before Axiom created its main website of RELEASED evidence.
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CLICK>> http://axiomamnesia.com/TrayvonMartinFiles/Zimmerman911CallHistory.pdf
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If you scroll to the bottom, you will come to two dispatch reports–
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1. Event 20120291545 – (01/29/2012)
………….Timothy Smith was the responder
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2. Event 20120332595 – (02/02/2012)
…………..Timothy Smith & Jonathan Mead were the responders
The above link has all the details of EVERY call George made starting with his 2005 calls.
Actually……starting in 2004.
it would seem that these folks had a little routine going on
Seems as if they knew each other, Tzar.
.
Another poster supplied this infor:
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“Davila’s SAO interview is summarized on p. 6 of the July 12 release. The SAO summary says: ‘Officer Davila had 2 or 3 contacts with Zimmerman prior to this incident. Davila had responded to Zimmerman’s calls for assistance in relation to suspicious persons.’ “
Correction: Jonathan Mead arrived when the EMT’s were already at the scene.
When discussing the officers at the scene knowing Fogen, please also take a look at the officers involved in the Sherman Ware case. You may be surprised.
Hence, it is a fact that of the first 5 officers arriving at the crime scene, THREE of them knew gz.
It’s quite likely that Sean the dispatcher knew Fogen through his other NEN calls, I would think. Apparently SPD nicknamed him George Watchman, according to one news report.
Notice how many times Timothy Smith is the responder. By the time he shot Trayvon, Fogen and Timothy Smith were probably on first name basis.
JMO
@JB
He had responsed to calls before from George, IIRC maybe 3.
Timothy Smith
Ayala
Raimondo
There is something rotten in the State of Denmark.
And Rosenkrantz and Guildenstern — are they bringing us a message?
Earlier Colin Black, Shannoninmiami, and leander discussed how odd it was that gz looked DOWN at his pocket for his cellphone.
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Consider this link that a poster supplied entitled “The Truth about George Zimmerman’s Kel Tec PF-9”
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This caught my eye–
“1. The Kel Tec PF-9 tends to get caught-up in clothing when a shooter tries to remove it in a hurry.”
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Could this have anything to do with George not being able to find his cellphone……….maybe, he was not ever looking for his cellphone in the wrong pocket but was in fact trying to get his gun out, but it was snagging up in his clothing.
Could this be why Trayvon hit George in the face?
The article goes on to say that if owners do a lot of practice drawing the gun out from the holster, they can avoid it getting caught up in their clothing.
And why would George try to call 911 IF Trayvon had actually just said,
“Yo, you got a problem?”
Anyone would know it is too late to call 911 in the middle of a confrontation.
Yep, too late to update the dispatcher on his exact location so he can have them there in 2 seconds.
Thanks for that article reference. It’s informative, and I had never seen that particular one before.
I have always been convinced that the killer was not reaching for his “telephone,” but was reaching for his gun. But, heck, even if he was reaching for a piece of gum, it’s all the same.
That is, in view of the creepy guy’s having followed Trayvon in a motor vehicle and then pursuing him on foot into the darkness, his reaching into a pocket or anywhere near his waistband would reasonably be perceived as a very aggressive and threatening move – i.e., to pull a gun. (It certainly is not a movement designed to de-escalate a potentially violent scenario!)
That’s so interesting about the propensity of the gun to get caught up in clothing; hadn’t heard that before. Also, there’s much talk in the article about the gun’s recoil, especially if held “limp-wristed.”
Depending on the location and proximity of his face in relation to the gun, I’m still not ruling out that the killer’s gun recoil produced injury(ies) to his nose.
Add to that a theory by “itsallaboutmeash” that cuts and markings on the back of the killer’s head correlate rather well with parts of his gun, suggesting that they, too, were self-inflicted.
It thus doesn’t seem outside the realm of possibility that virtually ALL the killer’s injuries were self-inflicted – accidentally, to the face, and intentionally, to the back of the head.
For more about the back-of-head injuries, theory and demonstration see:
http://frederickleatherman.com/2012/12/17/the-two-photographs-of-the-defendants-head-damage-the-defense/#comment-49014
Hello You all have thoughtful comments,
Exactly!! I’ve also read that this gun only weighs 18ozs. How much does a cell phone weigh?
And if we’re right and I think we are, when Fogen says he was reaching for his cellphone cough he was actually reaching for his gun. And of course Trayvon would have sucker punched him in the face and try to run for his life. What else could he do?
There’s a witness who says she saw a chase. She was probably seeing Fogen chase Trayvon.
It brings tears to my eyes just thinking about that. How scared his was…He was begging for his life.
Fogen needs to go away for a very long time.
I agree totally. I know if someone had stopped me and asked me what I was doing then went to reach for something in his pocket, my first thought would not be “cell phone.” I’d punch him or kick him or whatever and get the hell out of there too.
1. Fogen follows a kid into the darkness.
2. There is an “altercation” (to use the words the media chose).
3. Fogen claims the kid beats him within an inch of his life.
4. Fogen “feels like” the kid “sees” Fogen’s concealed weapon in its holster on his hip because his jacket rides up during an evasive and head-protective shimmy.
5. Fogen feels the kid’s hand go down the side of his chest.
6. Fogen kills the kid.
7. Fogen looks for something in the kids hands because he felt like when he was being beaten the kid had something in his hands.
8. Fogen speaks to a bystander — no, two bystanders — no, three bystanders.
9. The police come.
From the first until the last, Fogen doesn’t wipe off his face. He keeps talking with all that blood on his mouth? Tell me this: How does he know he doesn’t have some of the kid’s blood on his mouth and how does he know it’ s not getting IN his mouth? How come he keeps flapping his jaw without wiping off the blood? Does it not occur to him that he doesn’t know the medical condition or HIV status of the kid whose blood he might have on his mouth, yet he doesn’t bother wiping it off, he keeps talking blah blah blah and he lets blood sit all over his face? Is this for real?
Oh yeah, how about this: His head is slammed on the ground on the sidewalk where the dogs have been pooping for all that time and he doesn’t want to go to the hospital to get a tetanus shot? Bam Bam Bam on the sidewalk right by the dogpoop station and he isn’t worried about infection and doesn’t even get a prophylactic antibiotic or inoculation?
Thank you for answering my question about fogen confessing.As soon as I sent it I thought gawd what a stupid question.I am in awe of all you commentors you are all so smart.I like that Malisha is funny sometimes.I don’t think fogen would worry about dog dodo he ‘s full of shit anyway.
Good post, Malisha.
In the bloody photo it looks as though he wiped the blood from the right side of his mouth (there is a smear) without wiping his lips or anything else,
and does all this without getting a drop of blood on Trayvon’s hands
I tell ya that fogen is one magical killer. makes one think those injuries are post altercation.
Thank you Professor,
Absolutely. Your article certainly helped me understand the balancing of the scales of justice. On the surface the cell phone pictures help the defense but now I wonder if they’ll insist on entering them into evidence. I would think that just as our blog experts have determined tampering, I suppose O’Mara would have his own experts take a look at them first just to be sure.
Soooo..I think it’s going to fun to watch when this issue comes up. Will O’Mara take the bait? One thing for sure, if he doesn’t, we’ll know why. 😎
In my unprofessional opinion, I think O’Mara is more interested in finding fault with the investigation and the State’s method or operandi than seeking evidence to prove his client’s innocence.
I’m not sure why he wants to go this route unless he’s simply kissing up to the crazy theorists.
I just read a comment from over there regarding the Sandy Hook shootings. Apparently “somebody” thinks that the government sent their people in the school to shoot the children in order to get stronger gun control. 🙂
Ya just can’t make this sh*t up…
they are “spinning” out of control to make sure that the gun laws stay the same or become more pro-gun
@ Professor
Dissenting Opinion
IMO, it cannot be conclusively stated that the photo was not altered – yet. My doubt emanates from- and is solidified by the photo itself. In the said photo, Zimmerman’s nose and alleged injuries appear ‘enlarged’ while the length of his face appear elongated and the width emaciated, etc. As such, it seems, according to the presentations made by JUN, that the lens of the apparatus used in taking the photo in question either randomly- or meticulously selected which facial features to ‘enlarge’ (especially the ones that tend to validate the claims of the defense), which ones to ‘elongate’ and emaciate and which ones to leave intact (e.g. the eyes, etc.). I think Grbsb, Zhickel and Whonoze still have some explaining to do. I think JUN et al have raised many valid questions that are yet to be (satisfactorily) answered. Surely Zimmerman has right to fair trial. But so too the State.
Furthermore, before the Court rules the photo (in)admissible, the court must first determine whether it (the photo) is relevant and, if so, whether the probative value outweighs the danger of prejudice. To be relevant “a photo (…) must be probative of an issue that is in dispute.” Almeida v. State, 748 So.2d 922, 929 (Fla.1999). Photographs are admissible if “they assist in explaining to the jury the nature and manner in which the wounds were inflicted.” Bush v. State, 461 So.2d 936, 939 (Fla.1985). Moreover, photographs are admissible “to show the manner of death, location of wounds, and the identity of the victim.” (Larkins v. State, 655 So.2d 95, 98 (Fla.1995). On the other hand, trial courts must be cautious in not permitting unduly prejudicial or particularly inflammatory photographs before the jury. A trial court’s decision to admit photographic evidence will not be disturbed absent an abuse of discretion (Mansfield, 758 So.2d at 648). In the present case, Zimmerman claims that his nose was broken. The prosecution vigorously disputes that. Zimmerman wants to use the photo to EXCLUSIVELY prove that which he alleges (i.e. broken nose). From the medical point of view no determination of any form of broken nose can be made based on the photo (alone). The photo is therefore irrelevant and consequently inadmissible. In this regard, it must be noted that Zimmerman, within minutes after killing an unarmed (in Zimmerman’s own words) “kid”, was offered a free ride to the hospital where his alleged injuries would be examined and treated by medical professionals. Zimmerman refused that generous offer. It must also be noted that on the following day, Zimmerman visited his own family doctor who advised that an x-ray would be the proper action to be taken and the Zimmerman refused this very prudent medical advice from his own doctor.
Finally, given, and its undisputed, that the photo reflects a “distorted” image of Zimmerman’s face on that fateful night, the danger of prejudice would outweigh its probative value (of which there is none) – even if the photo were to be admitted.
Based on the above, I shall disagree with our Professor. IMO, it would be a very bad and dangerous ruling if Judge Nelson were to rule the photo admissible while allowing the jury to decide how much weight to give to the said photo – since that photo doesn’t- and cannot prove the fact alleged by Zimmerman, distorts reality and opens the door for jurors to speculate and draw conclusions that are not fact-based.
If Judge Nelson decides to allows the photos in, one would expect that the prosecution would not settle for less than a promise from the her that she will SPECIFICALLY instruct the Jurors that they are “not allowed to use the photo as evidence of broken nose” (as claimed by Zimmerman).
I stand by my assessment that that picture is doctored
Without a doubt, the image is manipulated.
Manipulated.
Definitely has been manipulated.
As do I.
As do I. But I would like to see them admitted, because that’s the only way to get to the bottom of it, when they are challenged in court, as they will be, because a later photo shows these injuries all healed up. Not possible! So the picture is a fake.
No doubt in my mind. The right side of his face looks like it was manipulated by the stamp tool, and his double chin is missing.
\
LLMPapa, you’ve done it again!!! It’s God’s plan that GZ spend the rest of his life in prison.
tee hee hee, I enjoyed that way too much
One of my favorites. You are a creative genius!
That’s great! The video footage was perfect fot that dialog!
“Do not ask for whom the bell tolls,”
It tolls for Z.
Too bad the world didn’t end today george looks like you’ll still have to face the music.
Made an vidoe where GZ as park when he first saw TM at the
mailboxes to see if you and I can see his face in the rain
and dark street area.
On Lanza, what was with the dad. He also knew his son had serious issues. If he didn’t want his wife, why would he leave his disturbed son with her? Did he throw money at the situation while he got a younger wife?
Dianetrotter: “On Lanza, what was with the dad. He also knew his son had serious issues. If he didn’t want his wife, why would he leave his disturbed son with her? Did he throw money at the situation while he got a younger wife?”
I don’t know much about conditions of the divorce, who wanted it or why, but it is reported to have been amiable and he gave Nancy Lanza more than was required by law. He seems a gracious man who cared about his kids to give them whatever they needed or wanted in the way of support, emotional and financial. It is my understanding that it was a choice made by Nancy Lanza to have Adam live with her. I believe the oldest son eventually went to live with his father.
The only thing I know for sure is that the father did not take an obviously mentally disturbed youth to a shooting range to learn how to shoot because he thought it would teach him responsibility and respect for guns. I am not willing to point any fingers at the father who must be hurting too over the loss of his son and the horrific crimes he committed.
Hi jm, I just heard that the dad hadn’t seen his soon since 2010. At 20 years old I would think the son could go see his dad if he wanted to. I’m wondering if there was some sibling rivalry. He tried to plant brother’s id to make it look like Ryan did it. Tragedy all around.
I’m addicted to this site for GZ case. Things are reported here that you can’t find anywhere else!
Diane: “At 20 years old I would think the son could go see his dad if he wanted to. I’m wondering if there was some sibling rivalry. He tried to plant brother’s id to make it look like Ryan did it. Tragedy all around.”
Yes the killer could obviously drive and visit his father. I also wondered what his motive was for carrying his brother’s ID. It was reported he had not seen or contacted his brother or his father in 2 years.
It is a tragedy beyond understanding, but I keep going back to the mother who exposed this obviously mentally troubled kid to guns and the shooting range and I am 99% sure this could have been avoided had it not been for the mother’s bad decision. Even though her acquaintances, neighbors and friends said she was a nice person, I wonder what mental issues she may have had to become a gun enthusiast and think it was okay to share her enthusiasm with her mentally unbalanced son. It is hard for me to believe he just showed this violent streak for the first time when he killed those innocents at the school.
There are lessons to be learned from this and the most important is to recognize and admit when someone you love is mentally ill and get all the help you can in the management of the mental illness even if it means sending that person out of the home for long-term treatment.
Dave, my sister has been in prison for 4 years of an 8 year sentence. I personally tried to get help for her for more than 5 years. I was told by hospital intake, “Unless she hurts someone or herself, we can’t help her.” She was 44 and had exhibited mild symptoms as a child. After my father passed away, when she was 21, symptoms went ballastic. She was diagnosed bipolar paranoid schizophrenic. She abused drugs. The guy she killed was in her house and didn’t stop when she said “no.” She is not remorseful. She said he tried to rape her. He went out the bedroom window. Police found him on the ground with his pants around his knees.
NL didn’t have any lack of money for caring for her son either – according to reports, she had 12k a month in alimony and her ex said she would never have to work again if she didn’t want to.
Actually, I read that Nancy Lanza was getting more like $24K in alimony/child support.
As for her gun interest, I think I read that she had grown up in a family of gun enthusiasts, so her attitudes about guns were mostly based on what she had grown up with. I don’t think that enjoying target shooting is evidence of having any mental or emotional problems. Getting semi-automatics and big ammunition clips for “self-defense” does strike me as being rather paranoid and wacko.
I’m sorry to say this but I believe that she is part to blame for this tragedy. I have worked with the mentally ill for most of my career as a nurse and have a brother that is mentally ill, they are unpredictable sweet as can be one moment and violent at the next. One should never keep firearms anywhere but in a safe with a combination when you have a mentally ill person around, and you should not ever consider tainnig them to shoot. I know this guy with mental illness he lived wth his sister she took him everywhere with her, she loved him & he loved her, one day he stabbed hs sister to death and fled. People must not delude themselves into thinking that people with mental illness are “normal”, this belief have put many family members in the grave. Seek the professional help that is needed this is life and death that we are talking it needs to be taken seriously and shouldn’t be hid behind close doors.
Tee, this is a bit of a sensitive area for me because, as I have said before, my son has Asperger’s syndrome. He is in an Engineering program at a prominent university, has a girlfriend, has recently completed a job internship and will soon be starting another. So, although people with Asperger’s will usually seem somewhat odd (some more so than others), Asperger’s is by no means a mental illness, and I would hate for people to think so. However, it does seem that they may be more vulnerable than most people to many mental illnesses. An 18-year-old girl that I know has both Asperger’s and bipolar disorder. A friend of my son’s with Asperger’s ended up in a mental hospital for depression a couple of years ago.
What complicates the picture in this case is that a lot of severe mental illnesses tend to first show up when the person is in their late teens or early twenties. So, it is quite possible that Adam Lanza’s mental illness was developing for the first time during the few months before the school shooting. When someone starts to go downhill that way, it must be difficult to tell whether and when you should get alarmed about it and what level of actions to take.
gblock, it’s ages ago but considering this:
At one point in my life with 17 I ended up in a clinic for psychosomatic disorders. It document does exist anymore, my mother at one point put it into the trash basket. Unfortunately. But it was a 30 page long document that was written after or based on an interview of 45 minutes with me and a German standard test, the test still is standard, I hope not the interpretation.
I have not met one psychologist that questioned the wisdom of writing a document of 30 pages based on that evidence ever after. And yes, I could have stayed in the institution immediately. But decided not to.
The main diagnosis was “excessive environmental processing”. I checked this carefully, no definition of “normal” environmental processing existed ever as far as I know. My “madness” was then and still is what happened in Germany between 1933 and 1945. Much of my trouble in school and the accompanying suspensions had to do with that. Not only but partially.
Fact is, it seems to be very hard to ever get out of the institutional frame once you surrendered to it. It will haunt you, I was lucky enough to never do, others were not.
I can still highly recommend Michel Faucault’s Madness and Civilization on the larger issues involved.
sorry, gblock, it’s Foucault, I think misspelled it and noticed too late.
but interesting subject, what is normal? Something defined by herds?
Funny you should ask. I wrote a philosophy paper in grad school on “normal”. As I postulated it, “normal” has 2 meanings. One is the “norm” as in a bell curve, based on an average of ratings. The other one is more interesting. It means “optimal”. If your car is running well or you are in good health, that is called normal. But it’s the OPTIMAL working of those two systems. Anything less than optimal or sometimes, something working beyond optimal, is call abnormal. People confuse and interchange these two meanings but they aren’t the same at all. People with glasses used to be considered abnormal because their eyes weren’t functioning optimally. But nowadays so many people wear glasses (the numerical definition) that wearing glasses is now “normal”. Hence the confusion.
Sent from my iPod
leander22 – Yes, there are usually things that are less than ideal about mental hospitals. In this case, the young man was taken there after threatening to commit suicide. And he managed to return to the university the following semester ( a couple of months later) and seems to have done all right since – although my son and I both thought at the time that he might be better off staying with his parents for a few months.
gblock, good to hear that about your son’s friend. I was suicidal too, but without talking about it, only reflecting it, mainly in writing my last notice to a couple of people I didn’t want to leave behind without this note. It felt I had to explain what I did to them, but in the process I realized I couldn’t really explain it.
But one thing I learned by doing so and after, if you meet someone that has really decided to leave, you wont notice, since he won’t show or tell you, quite the opposite. He may in fact feel pretty well off to you. So if someone threatens suicide she/he only tells you, he needs help.
So if I connect this information with the possibility he may have met the right people, not always a given, it maybe was a good thing for him to happen.
Another story: I know of at least one person that cried out to his sister from inside such an institution. She immediately drove back from France to Germany, and arrived after he was dead. They had medicated him slightly too heavily to calm him down. He felt another inmate had been ill-treated. Which is always something tempting to do, if you want to make your life as a guard is more easy. It in fact seems to be the standard procedure in many places, I know some people that work there.
Life isn’t fair, but there you go, you always have the chance to meet the right people. The only thing I am really sure about is, that Fogen didn’t give Trayvon a chance since he thought he already knew all necessary to know about Trayvon. Which means too, no matter what Trayvon did it only confirmed Fogen’s preconceptions in Fogen’s head.
That’s what draws me to this story, way beyond conspiracies. This core story is all I need to be attracted to the fate of Trayvon. I do in fact think that all the people that come out do nothing more than defend their own prejudices, as something meaningful, something necessary. And they are legions, they will always be.
The very, very best to your son and his friend.
The thing I can’t wrap my mind around is the racist justification for the killing of the “thug.” If, after school records and juvenile court records are revealed, and there is nothing there, racists will still feel GZ was justified because TM “attacked” him. It is scary that I work with people who think like this. One lady couldn’t wait to tell me that TM was a thug. How did she know??
“Thug” is the new “N” word.
It has always been my belief that the broken nose came from the recoil of Fogens firearm…..His choice of weapons….the Kel Teh PF9
has some pretty bad reviews on it, including excessive recoil. His pistol only weighs 18 ounces fully loaded.
The less the mass of the firearm, the greater the recoil. His choice of 9MM’s is HALF the weight on standard 9MM’s.
Read some of the reviews on his choice of weapons. It even states that due to the excessive recoil it is uncomfortable to shoot for target practice.
Notice that the cut on fogens nose is one the right side………the same side he held his pistol in.
Was Trayvon left or right handed?……..If I were to assault someone, my first punch would be to try and do the most damage as possible, hence I would use the arm that carried the most power.
If Trayvon was right handed the cut should be on the left side of the nose.
Add to this fogens comment that he was careful not to shoot his left hand…..This would indicate that he had both hands free to defend himself…..and why worry about shooting ones left hand…UNLESS it was forward of the muzzle of the pistol…….Possibly holding onto Trayvons hoodie.
A proper shooting stance is to fire the weapon with a 2 handed grip. Why didn’t fogen use both hands to hold his pistol when he fired the shot being as both hands were free?…….and again not wanting to shoot his left hand?
Naw, my belief is that fogen broke his own nose (or got his nose injured without being broken) by the recoil of his own weapon.
And we all know fogens pride would NEVER let him admit to this.
@ mountainmanpat
You make powerful arguments. But my eyebrows were raised by the part that said:
“It has always been my belief that the broken nose came from the recoil of Fogens firearm…..His choice of weapons….the Kel Teh PF9 has some pretty bad reviews on it, including excessive recoil. His pistol only weighs 18 ounces fully loaded.”
I guess one would like to know whereupon the assertion that Fogen has “broken nose” is based?
His nose was never broken.
I agree with your assessment. I have a friend with this same weapon and the gun is so light the kickback is powerful — easily explaining a conk on the right side of your nose if you were firing close to your face, one-handed.
The ejected shell casing could also have done the damage. There are slow motion videos of the ejection path of the casing that you can find online. Fogen is left-handed but carries and shoots right-handed. This is all consistent with his injuries.
Your point about his left hand is a CRITICAL piece of forensics! If (in his own statement) he aimed to miss his left hand, he (1) had both hands free at the time he decided to kill and (2) must have been grasping Trayvon’s shirts (detaining/controlling Trayvon) when he decided to fire the fatal shot.
If the photo is authentic and he really has that big zit – burn thing near the little cut – might not that be a burn from the ejected shell casing? Are these hot as they pop out?
Medicine Bear
The next question is whether fogens arm was fully outstretched…..or bent at the elbow?
If bent at the elbow?….even more likely that that the injury was from the recoil.
If at arms length?….That would indicate that Trayvon was at least an arm length AWAY from fogen…..and again another indication that fogen was trying to restrain Trayvon
@ Medicine Bear
Fogen claims to have had his arm stretched straight out in every video/reenactment but Osterman’s claim was that his elbow was solidly on the ground. Making the trajectory impossible unless Trayvon was levitating about him and off to one side. Go figure! More lies by someone.
*above* not about
Thanks for the information, mountainmanpat. I am glad you came here and posted this pertinent information to us.
@ Two sides
Yes they are hotter than hell when ejected, You sure don’t want to get one down your shirt.
As for fogen being left handed and shooting with his right?
Most all firearms are made to eject to the right, including the military’s M16, M4 & M249 SAW light machine gun. So even left handed soldiers learn to shoot with their right hand…….
Imagine firing a SAW left handed with 550 rounds per minute of spent brass flying past your face?
Let me say I’m happy to be a “right hander”.
Everyone has a dominate eye also, most all will be the same as the dominate hand……but not all the time.
To test which is your dominate eye?…..extend your arm holding up your thumb, with both eyes open…..now cover an object with your thumb, then close one eye and see if the object remains covered…..if it does? Then that is your dominate eye…..close the other eye and you’ll see your thumb move off the object covered by a few inches depending on the distance of the object.
Must suck to be right handed and left eyed 😐
YAHTC……Anyplace I can stand up for Trayvon………I’m there
You have a GREAT day.
@mountainmanpat
i tried your test to see which eye was my dominant eye, but can’t do it. I extended my arm held up my thumb, but I can’t cover any object with it. I am trying, but I end up seeing two thumbs and the object! lol What am doing wrong? Maybe I don’t have a dominant eye…what does that mean?!
You have a great day, also! 🙂
The gun was — oh, I mean, “THE gun” was legally Shellie’s. She’s probably right-handed.
Wait a minute…..I thought big shellie had a CCW also?
And they only had one pistol?
What did they do….alternate on odd and even days of who could carry it?
I also remember reading that osterman was with fogen when he purchased the weapon!!!!!!!
She did. The State notified her to revocation after her arrest for a felony. There was no such notification reported for GZ, however.
It does appear that way. The FBI reported that before while at Osterman’s but before he was charged, GZ tried purchasing 3 guns. When he arrived in Jacksonville and was arrested, he had a gun in his rental car. Osterman alleges that he gave GZ that gun. That brings doubt that ShelLIE had a gun that she could give to GZ.
@ChrisNY~Laurie…….Which eye do you use when you look through the viewfinder of a camera..or a front door peephole (if you have one)? That is most likely your dominate eye.
You know I never thought of it in that context……it makes perfect sense though……
I’m just happy to be right in both ways…..hands and eyes 🙂
@ ChrisNY…..
When you try this test….with both eyes open it will appear that you can see right through your thumb covering the object.
Thanks for replying. I thought your test sounded interesting and I couldn’t resist trying it out, but I give up…I still have two thumbs, so I used the one on the left to see the object through and closed my left eye, my thumb was on the object and was not with my right eye closed. So, I tried it again and this time used the right double thumb and closed my left eye and it wasn’t covering the object, but it was when I closed my right eye. You don’t see two thumbs??LOL
@ ChrisNY, Me too! i was seeing double lolo!
i think you need to have the object within a few inches beyond you thumb, right?
ok i just tried it again with an object a couple of feet away and it worked!
so i’m technically right handed. but years ago my aunt mentioned to me that i was left handed when i was a kid and my mom forced me to use my right hand once i went to school! i never knew that!
But, i’ve always had trouble with my hand writing, and i just thought it was b/c some peeps just have terrible hand writing.. that’s why the subject came up with my aunt! i wish i could ask my mom why she did that! but i’ve heard of other parents doing it too. i think it has to do with safety or balance, anyone know?
so when i did this experiment i found my left eye was dominate even though i write with the right hand!
so cool mountianman! thank you for sharing 🙂
shannon,
It apparently used to be a very common thing to try to get left-handers to use their right hand instead. I think that was mostly based on a prejudice against “lefties”. There do seem to be disadvantages to being a lefty – apparently, they are more likely to injure themselves because most equipment is made for “righties”.
I’ve always been strongly right-handed, but my left eye is dominant. I had amblyopia as a kid, my right eye turned out. I had an operation for it when I was 7 years old, but I guess by then, my eyes and/or my brain had formed the habit of having my left eye dominate.
“If Trayvon was right handed the cut should be on the left side of the nose.”
Not necessarily so. I’ll say it again and again and again. I was punched square in the face by a right-handed person and sustained a small fracture on the right hand side of my nose, not the left.
Hello everyone!
I haven’t disappeared. Just feeling so sad. Seeing the faces of the little victims of that senseless violence just gripped my soul. It’s so wrong. Seems I can’t talk about anything else. I’ll be back tho. Say a prayer for the victims, families of the victims and the community.
I feel the same way. Every time they show their faces I imagine them being shot multiple times and the unthinkable pain their families are feeling.
Unfortunately I am becoming angry at the idea of the shooter’s mother, a gun “enthusiast” who introduced this kid to guns and took him to shooting range even though she knew he was mentally unstable and getting worse according to friends she confiding in.
For the life of me, I don’t understand how anyone can get enthused about collecting or shooting guns so maybe I am being too harsh, but I can’t help how I feel towards the ignorance and/or denial of the mother that led to this horrific tragedy.
JM,
We see eye to eye about the mother. I am soo angry at her right now.
I am angry at the denial and ignorance for exposing this kid to guns. The mother is dead and in some respects it may be good that she does not realize what a monster she created giving him gun education. It seems she reaped what she sowed.
Several people were discussing this tonight on TV and one in particular said there is no health care professional that would have advised her introducing him to guns would be helpful, which begged the question was he getting mental health help or did she keep his growing problems to herself.
This kind of reminds me of GZ’s family, knowing his molestation background and trouble with the law, attacking police officers and ex-girlfriend, yet calling him a decent American in complete denial that he could be at fault in the killing of an innocent teen who had no history of violence and no criminal record.
Between the Zimmerman case with “supporters” giving a killer money to live on and the massacre of these children, I wonder what we (general) are doing wrong that these things can happen.
Don’t forget an insane amount of phone calls to the police for anything he felt was not perfect, such as pot holes.
jm…..I absolutely agree with you. In one news article regarding the divorce documents, the mom stated that she did not want her son to be left alone at any time and that she would care for him as long as she could….. That seems to say that he did indeed have a problem. Having guns around him seems very irresponsible.
I too am disturbed by this mother keeping guns and teaching Adam Lanza how to shoot. There are many people with disabilities in our family and I can tell you from firsthand experience that neurological and mental disabilities and guns just don’t mix. Why she thought that was ok is beyond me.
You might want to Google search for Salon’s article entitled “9 Appalling Gun Laws backed by the Right Wing.”
.
From the article:
.
“But there’s another group working hand-in-glove with the NRA that deserves scrutiny: the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC). ALEC, the Koch Brothers-backed group that is funded by big corporate interests, first attracted attention in the wake of the Trayvon Martin killing. The group, which brings together corporate interests, right-wing lobbyist groups and conservative politicians, passes model legislation that politicians take back ready-made to their state.
.
“Here are 9 of the awful gun bills ALEC wants to bring to a state near you.
1. Guns on Campus
2. Immediate Firearm Purchases
3. More ‘Stand Your Ground’ Laws
4. No Borders to Firearm Movement
5. Annulling Local Regulations on Guns
“…….For all its talk of federalism and love of local democracy, ALEC still wants to be able to impose its agenda–even if a locality wants nothing to do with it.
6. Defending an Unregulated Gun Market
7. Guns for Emergencies
8. Semi-Automatics for Everyone
9. Bolstering the Second Amendment
“……..The Second Amendment is not going anywhere. But ALEC remains worried about attempts to regulate firearms, and passed a resolution decrying gun control while celebrating the amendment. The “American Legislative Exchange Council recommends the rejection of further restrictive firearms laws that only serve to limit law abiding citizens in the exercise of their Constitutionally guaranteed rights while having no effect on the activities of the criminal element in our society,”
YAHTC,
Here’s a link to ALEC http://www.ALECexposed.org
Thanks, looneydoone
@SouthernGirl2, it’s a terrible thing to even think about that this is going on right in our own country. George Zimmerman, Michael Dunn and now this heart wrenching crime against little children at Sandy Hook School is turning this country into a criminal state all because of some people’s love and worship of guns. we can no longer tell people in other countries how to run their own country, when we can’t even stop the massacre of innocent people in our own country. this country is now taking on the look of a third world country with all of the gun violence. I’m ready to stand up for what’s right and, that is to get tougher gun laws passed in this country. these latest acts of gun violence that I have mentioned, took the lives of children and, this is not acceptable in any sense. I have a little six year old grandson and, I am hugging and holding him tight everyday as well as telling him that I love him.
Does anyone know whether Trayvon was right or left handed?
I believe he was right handed xena
I was thinking that also. If that is true, how likely is it that Trayvon would hit GZ with his left hand?
He might have – if it was in his own self-defense and it was all he could do.
yes right handed, that is why I pointed out how when Fogen was talking with Erwin before his voice analysis test he showed Erwin how Trayvon supposedly used his right hand to reach across Fogen’s chest(going to his left) to grab the gun that was on Fogen’s right hip. Erwin asks Fogen which hand Trayvon used and Fogen knew immediately that he screwed up by demonstrating it with Trayvon using his right and crossing over, so suddenly he doesn’t recall which hand he used.
He was right handed. Sabrina Fulton’s statement in the 2nd evidence dump.
Thank you Mirre. So, if I’m a right-handed person facing someone and instinctively punches them in the nose, the lump/bruise/injury should be on their left-side and not their right-side like it is on the photo.
He´s left handed for writing as in one of the police interviews where he is filmed signing but he claims he shoots with his right hand which at the time it was discussed here many agreed was quite usual because, something about guns being made for right hand, or whatever.
Yes, GZ is left-handed. I was wondering about Trayvon.
Sorry and don´t know.
I’ve been punched in the nose by a right-handed person. I don’t think it matters as much as you think it does – I ended up with a fist square in the middle of my face and with a small fracture on the right-hand side of my nose, not the left.
Fogen’s may be right eye dominate. I am right-handed for writing but, when I was in college and took archery for a PE class, I shot left handed because my left eye (for sighting the target) is my dominate eye…worked out much better that way. Also, since I was a kid, whenever I’ve gone miniature golfing, I also putt left handed too.
LOL! I also do archery left handed tho I am right handed for all else. So I’m not as weird as I thought!
Sent from my iPod
In a fight one would use both hands. It wouldn’t be unusual for a blow with the “weak” hand to connect first.
Fogen says he was looking down to the right (for his phonegun) — sooooo, Trayvon is right handed and fogen is looking down-right (exposing the left side of his face) but the RIGHT side of fogen’s nose is hit. Must be some o’that MMA-style magic!
Medicine Bear
I’m right there with you.
Personally I don’t believe Trayvon threw the first punch, and if he did it was either a defensive action as fogen reached into his pocket…….OR…..when GZ grabbed him in an attempt to detain him.
The whole story makes no sense from looking for his cellphone on the right side to call 911 (why the urgency?). I am right-handed. Everything I use regularly goes in my right pocket automatically without even thinking about it, including my cellphone. I have never punched anyone in the face but my automatic impulse (just practicing) would be to lead with my strongest hand which is right side. These lies are part of the reason Serino wanted to charge GZ with 2nd degree murder. Any logical person should come to the conclusion GZ’s story is a lie.
Zimmerman is left-handed.
Martin was right-handed.
If Zimmerman used his dominant hand to grab Martin to hold him for the police, he’d likely have grabbed Martin’s right arm if they were facing each other.
If Martin then used his remaining free arm and struck Zimmerman as a reaction to being grabbed, he most likely would have hit the right-hand side of Zimmerman’s nose.
unitron
George Zimmerman injuries as described by witness:
That witness saw the same thing we can see — GZ at the re-enactment with butterfly bandaids between his nose and on his 2 head boo-boos that he said ShelLIE applied. We also see the photos taken by the police department the night GZ killed Trayvon and those photos are WITHOUT bandages.
Yea he see’s fogen “everyday ” ? Did this guy just point to the right side of the knuckle aid bandaid? This guy has been spoon fed by fogen–is this guy a witness or part of the taaffee plant corn get corn team ????
He must live next door to Osterman, because that is where GZ was after he killed Trayvon. “Everyday” my foot!
Haha he pointed to the OTHER side of the nose in that photo, which doesn’t match the swollen nose pic we’ve seen!
The witness also describes swelling on BOTH sides of the nose. I don’t recall seeing that, and none of the photos corroborate that as far as I know.
If I heard correctly, this interviewee saw swelling “on the side of his nose where, like, his eyes were at” — and based upon that, I think that this interviewee either has “short-term vision” or he is a Picasso fan.
LLMPAPA……..Can you take one of fogen’s photos and “adjust” it to resemble a picture in the “Picasso style”?
I listened to that scream tape so many times
it does not sound even remotely close to the defendant at all
It sounds like a kid every time to me
I dont know how some people can say it sounds like the defendant
My conclusion is pretty much the defendant lost his cool and got angry and violent like he has in the past, and then this time went overboard because he lost control
Then staged his self defense story
All we need is a fair objective jury and it should be cool
It is obvious by weighing the scales of justice, had the defendant not instigate and escalate the events of that night, and show a disregard to a screaming kid, nothing would have happened
I wonder how many times this “witness” has heard the killer screaming for his life, seeing that he is so sure of whom he heard screaming on the recording.
Does anyone know if there is an unredacted version of that 911 call with trayvon screaming? I’m wondering what else did he scream before he was killed. i’m sure the prosecution has a copy but i wonder if it’s floating around the net somewhere.
Other folks have asked the same question, and I’ve never heard anyone say that they know of an accessible unredacted version so far….
Just as LLMPAPA did with the DeeDee interview, I wish that he, or anyone else, would take the 911 call recording and edit out the caller’s voice and the operator’s voice. And then enhance the backround voices so that we can hear, more clearly and without interruption, what’s going on between fogen and Trayvon.
ABC reported that the FBI has the recording of that 911 call for enhancement to determine what GZ is saying to Trayvon. Remember BDLR saying in the last hearing that there are reports of 2 voices on that recording?
http://sandrarose.com/2012/03/did-trayvon-martin-call-911-before-he-was-shot/
Xena….I think the call that ABC was talking about was indeed the 911 call from the ear witness…the same one that I am talking about too. I don’t think that Trayvon made a 911 call since he seemed to be on the phone with DeeDee continuously, except for the moments that they were cut off.
Exactly. The feds have it and may have enhanced it by now. BDLR knows there are two voices on that tape, and now O’Mara knows.
I asked the same thing a while back. Professor Leatherman replied that we won´t hear the full version until trial because of privacy laws, but at trial the call will be heard in its entirety
bettykath says:
December 17, 2012 at 11:14 pm
I think the petition is premature. He is already being tried for 2nd degree murder. There is a good chance he will be convicted. What do you want besides 20-life? (or is it 25-life?).
Reply …I dont think he can get either 20 or 25 to life…All life sentances in Florida are natural life with no posssabilty of parole..
If the killer is convicted of Murder 2 with a firearm, the judge can sentence him to 25 years in prison, life, or anything in between plus as many years of probation as she sees fit as well as a fine.
He continues to claim he was the one screaming. That is obviously a teenager screaming.Trayvon wasn’t just screaming for help and begging for his life he also screamed “i don’t know!!!” twice. Zimmerscum supporters seem to think Trayvon was strong enough to beat a 200lb former bouncer by himself. While ignoring the fact that Zimmerscum had a hold of his shirts while he was trying to escape. Trayvon was not strong enough to break Zimmerscums grip as he desperately tried to get away.
@Kelly Payne
Interesting… you can hear “I don´t know” twice. I haven´t listened to the call for ages but I do hear it once albeit I hear “I don´t know ´em”, imagining that the “em”, i.e. them, was Trayvon replying to GZ´s questioning about the rest of the local gang of burglars. I was thrilled the other day when in court BDLR recognised there may be two voices, because I hear two and the other, presumably GZ, is calling out, not screaming in pain and anguish like Trayvon, no calling out in his ineffectual voice “help me” a couple of times, others hear him talking to Trayvon but haven´t gone back to listen yet.
I think the important thing is that when GZ says in his interview “it does’t even sound like me”, I believe by qualifying with “even” he was basically saying he didn’t recognise the words and it didn’t “even” sound like him. I hear his “help me” several times but the screams, “I don´t know (em)”, “stop”, “no” a a long single “help” are Trayvon´s. The fact that in his interview GZ made no reference the words being screamed simply affirming he cried “help me” speaks millions because much more is uttered on that call other than “help me”.
I’m not worried about the voice analysis stuff any more; when I thought nobody had an exemplar of Trayvon’s voice, I admit that I was a bit concerned. But they have a tape of Trayvon with SOUND at the 7-11 that night, so now, there is no real problem with analyzing the 911 tapes, screams and all. 🙂
Kelly Payne….I also heard “I don’t know” twice too.
watched a arrest an trial where a man gave his wife a shot of tequla with anough strcihnine to kill 20 people.He then calmly phoned 911 explaining he an his wife may have eat some bad food at a sea food restraunt as he also felt a bit,,woozy.So they had a shot each of booze when they arrived home,,He had recently doubled her life insurance,All the while whilst he is calmly explaining events to dispatch.His wife can be heard screaming in agony in the background.He even tells her to shsh as he is on the phone,An then excuses hhimself to shut the door to muffle her screams.She died an he was arrested for murder.The 911 call was sent to vioce analysis labratorys were they enhanced her voice an got rid of the background noices.You hear her saying ..what did you give me ?What have you done?An then starts shouting poison poison .This is where he excused himself to shh her an shut the door..The jurours unamisouly convicted him an said that the screams of her voice on the tape were her giveing evidence from the grave…If those tapes are enhanced an its possable to discern gz voice questioning interogateinng him An its obviously Trayvon screaming for help.They cant posssably go to trial with not guilty plea.Commonsense dictates he must beg for mercy an beg for a plea.But to continue to denie would be pointless unless they hope to get a biased raceist jury who aquits him anyway.
I watched a case an trial via a documentry arrest an trial..It was about a man utterly controlling an demeaning of his Wife.After 3 years of marrige she was getting set to divorce him,,,A couple of weeks before her death he phoned up the insurance broker an asked if his wife died out of the country was the policy still valid..Of course said the broker its a life insurance an where she dies is imaterial.So he doubled the policy an booked a weekend trip to Mexico.She refused to go.Two days later her husband phoned 911 an said he an his wife had been for a meal.An both felt a bit queezy.You could hear his wife screaming in agony in the background.He is titally cool an even tells her to shut up at one point as he is on the phone..When the e mt arrived he didnt want to let them in.One of them said you could hear her screams of agony from the cab of the vechicle with the engine running Aftermany minutes he let them in an she had lapsed into a comma.She had ingested a massive amount of stchnine enough to kill ten people..H er husband said they had eaten lobster at a sea food rstraunt an both felt a bit sick.Returned home an each had a shot of tequlia an she collapsed.He also hinted that she abused drugs.The LE went back to his home to collect the shot glasses ,An he retreived them from the dish washer the only to glasses in there sparkling clean ,They asked why he washed the glasses in the midst of his wife convulsing phoneine 991 .He claimed tobe a cleanliness house tidy freak.But the detectives noticed te sink was full of dirty pans untensils ect.The reason I mention this case was it happened more than a decade ago i i r c .An the 911 call with his wife screaming in pain in the background played a major part in his convictin for first degree murder..She lingered for a few days but died.The 911 call was sent to a labratory an all sound except her voice removed.An her voice enhanced..You could crealy hear her saying what have you given me..What have you done..An then shouting POISON POISON,,This is where he breaks of tells her to shut up a leaves to close a door to muffle her scream as she was desprately telling the operattor he had poisaned her..So if this was possable years ago .Im assumeing technolagy enhancemet has improved.An once they have done cleaning up those tapes an useing all there dooh dahs an whatnots .Its going to be yet more damming evidence of the defendants lies B D L R has already hinted that the analysiss of the phone has disserned two voices amongst the screams ect,,Even I without tech hear some voice not the screamer but another voice the defendants say…fuck…An others hear the screaming voice saying I dont know or Don know em,,an also cry for his Mother..So just imagine would thease sound tech guys with there gizzmos were discovered…In the trial of the wife murderer he was found guilty .An although there was other cicumstancial evidence against him .The jurours heard both the un en haced 911 tapes an the enhanced ones an to them it was the most damming peice of evidence.It was as if she was giveing evidence from the grave one jurour said
great story! good to hear that they had the technology way back when to isolate her voice!!
yeah that was a hint of things to come when BDLR said there were more than one voice! he sure sounds pretty damn confident now!!
Omar…not so much!! 🙂
He might have gotten away with it had he fed himself tiny but increasing doses of the poison and then had quite a bit in his system when he gave his wife a lethal dose. But good he didn’t, since that’s evil!
Off topic but I would like to remind everyone about the petition to investigate George Zimmerman for Civil Rights violation in his killing of Trayvon Martin.
The working team has a favor to ask. Those with Twitter and Facebook, please remind your friends that if they haven’t signed the petition, to please do so.
The Press Release makes it easy to email, post to Facebook, and Tweet with the click of a mouse. The URL is:
http://www.prweb.com/releases/prweb2012/12/prweb10196279.htm
and the link to the petition is in the content.
The direct URL to the petition is:
ttp://wh.gov/IXcy
It currently has 1,434 signatures. The closing date is Dec. 25th.
The “malicious prosecution” petition posted by a GZ supporter is now closed. The last I checked this afternoon, it had 1,157 signatures in spite of the fact that Robert Jr. had Fox news and radio promotion for that petition.
We may not obtain the 25,000 signatures needed to get a response from the White House, but we can still send a powerful message. That message is that there are more supporting justice for Trayvon, than there are people who believe that GZ was wrongfully arrested.
I think the petition is premature. He is already being tried for 2nd degree murder. There is a good chance he will be convicted. What do you want besides 20-life? (or is it 25-life?).
Maybe, but the petition still exists, and as long as it does, it should be supported, IMHO.
The petition is 90% symbolic but it is important. For one thing, it arise in response to the Outhousers’ petition saying that there should be an investigation to establish that Fogen was being subjected to “malicious prosecution.” At a certain point, it is important to our culture to talk back to crap like that. At a certain point it’s just not enough to chuckle and say, “oh those idiots” and go along. One point at which it is worthwhile to confront that stuff is when you realize that easy gun ownership makes it possible for “those idiots” can kill somebody to impress their point upon folks. At times, it’s just necessary to speak back even if it is “just talk.” And for that reason Lonnie’s petition is very significant. Every person who reads it is hearing something; not just the White House, where it may never reach. And maybe it’s worth something to say all that, as often as necessary if necessary.
Malisha: “The petition is 90% symbolic but it is important….. At times, it’s just necessary to speak back even if it is “just talk.” And for that reason Lonnie’s petition is very significant.. ”
I did not think Lonnie could get 25,000 signatures in a month but I supported the idea and signed the petition. You are right, it is necessary to speak out, just like the people who spoke out about the Trayvon killing in the first place to bring it to national attention and not just quietly mumble/grumble about the unfairness of the situation.
@JM
@Malisha
I agree. There is something here that is much deeper. It conveys a powerful message.
In Junior’s media campaigns on Fox and on radio, he promoted the “malicious prosecution” (MP) petition. He apparently has media connections. Yet, worldwide, the MP petition received less than 1,200 signatures.
Lonnie’s petition has not received television neither radio promotion. Its promotion has been mainly via the internet. Signatures are already over 1,400 and it does not close until Dec. 25th.
What message does that send to Junior? Apparently, the audience that he reaches through Fox is not interested in his diatribes.
I agree.
Most of the Junior petition signatures are likely fakes
either way
All together to bring justice for Trayvon we have had over
2.3 million signatures in petition to support
it is a number Junior and his minions will never beat
Xena, Betty, Malisha, JM, I had exactly the same idea yesterday. It’s good that people like Lonnie are so alert. Big thank you to him for starting it.
This is the first time, I wish I were an expert in using the diverse networks more efficiently.
I am continuing to investigate the photo. I learned something important from Zhickel’s look at the EXIF data: the photo was taken with an iPhone 4. So I got some info on the iPhone 4, and asked someone I know who has one to try to replicate the Zimmerman pose and email me the picture. The iPhone 4 only takes photos in the native resolution of it’s image sensor, which is 1936 x 2592. Pretty big. So when Wagner copied it to his computer, that’s how big it was. The image released by the State is 650 x 870, reduced to about a third the size of the original. So it was definitely scaled. I don’t know if there’s an iPhone app that scales pictures as it saves them to a computer, or if it was scaled after it was downloaded, or by whom. Wagner could have given a 1936 x 2592 photo to his superiors, and whoever preps the documents for discovery could have reduced it to make it a faster download on the web. All the photos released to the public from the prosecution have been scaled. Frankly, I think this is unacceptable, and a violation of the discovery rule. I call it ‘Redaction by Reduction’ and wrote a post about it on the whonoze blog back in June:
What this means is that trying to chase after traces by Photoshopping by examining the pixel level detail is a fool’s errand, because everything will have been changed by the interpolation algorithm used to generate the new pixels of the scaled down photo.
I’m not that familiar with EXIF data, but if software that alters the image leaves its name in the EXIF header, then it strikes me there should be some evidence of whatever program was used to scale it in the header, but there isn’t. I’ll leave that question to the EXIF experts for now.
Another thing I learned is that the iPhone camera is just awful. Though it’s high resolution, it’s appears to have a very narrow bit depth, do a lot of compression, and the color rendition is just wretched. So (as I had guessed) anyone noting differences in hue between the Wagner pic and the station photos – say GZ’s shirt appearing bluish in one and gray in the others – that’s just the difference between the cameras. They used a REAL digital camera at the station, that rendered color and detail properly. The iPhone doesn’t.
I had noted before that the released version of the Wagner pic appears anamorphic; that is, GZ’s face seems too narrow. The photo appears to have either been shrunk horizontally or stretched out vertically some. I took a stab at trying to rescale it into a proper aspect ratio and I posted a link to the results here, but I went way overboard and stretched it horizontally too far. One thing I wondered was whether the iPhone takes pictures anamorphically to begin with, as many digital video cameras do (the playback system stretches it back. The usual way you tell if something is anamorphic and by how much is too look at something you know is round, and see if it’s actually round or has become slightly oval. So I got the iPhone owner to take a picture of the top of a lightbulb. And putting it into Photoshop, sure enough it was indeed perfectly round. So the iPhone does have normal square pixels to begin with.
I was bemoaning the lack of round objects in the Wagner pic, when I realized there WAS something round in the photo. GZ’s pupils. So I zoomed in and measured them against a known perfect circle. And indeed, they’re not quite round. So I fiddled with the scale until I got the pupils right, and it was a 2% change. Not that much, but you can tell, and the change does make GZ’s head look more natural.
I’ll assume the webADD afflicted have skipped on to the next comment, and I’ll guess that those of you still reading this are wondering, ‘where is all this aspect ratio geek-blather going?’ Well, I think it’s evidence the photo was manipulated. The horizontal axis of a photo doesn’t get scaled 2% more or less on the nose 🙂 (as opposed to say 1.73829%) by accident. And here’s the thing: 650 x 870 is an exact scale down from 1936 x 2592. If the pic had just been squeezed 2%, it would have wound up as 637 pixels wide. To squeeze the x-axis, and then restore the dimensions to the exact same proportions as the original would have taken quite a bit of jiggering.
The real evidence of editing remains the camera-right deviation of the nose bridge, and the camera left deflection of the GZ’s right nostril line. Mike Tyson could punch GZ on the nose bridge 10 times, and it wouldn’t deflect the way it shows in the Wagner photo, much less return to normal a few hours later when the photos were taken at the police station. This is also affirmed by the comparison photo I had the iPhone owner take of himself. He doesn’t want to be seen on the internet, so I’ve posted a photo just comparing his nose to Zimmerman’s.
Note how much more of GZ’s right eye appears in the otherwise similar pictures. Could it have been moved to make the nose bridge narrower, thus making the ‘swelling’ appear more dramatic? Hmmm…
Fascinating.
Thank God, the official SPD crime-scene photographer took the high resolution digital photos of the defendant at the station house.
Since we can use them as an accurate and reliable standard for comparison, we can definitively conclude that the iPhone 4 digital photos are distorted, even if we are not certain as to the cause of the distortion.
Whether the distortion was intentional, accidental, or caused by the camera itself is an interesting question, but a definitive answer to that question is not necessary to decide the defendant’s guilt or innocence.
The correct answer is critical to determining whether there is probable cause to believe that two or more SPD officials participated in a criminal conspiracy to violate civil rights.
I assume that such an investigation is ongoing.
My kids take lots of photos of themselves and their friends and relatives with an iPhone and other phone brands and none are distorted in the way the Fogen photo is.
I was told that there is an ongoing investigation of the SPD down at DOJ.
Sanford PD must have been taking lessons from the Chicago & New York PD’s
Whonoze said
really? trade evidence data for a few seconds of idle time by the pc?
no that’s not going to fly
let’s say it too 10 minues to upload…it’s potential F’n evidence in a major case…I think they are going to have to explain that one before I give them excuses to work with
Strictly I consider his argument in this context obvious. It was on my mind too, since I often simply scale down photos if I feel that people will not need to print, they will only need them for the web and thus don’t need a higher or print resolution. The more important point he makes is that it probably could have been distorted in the process and that this distortion does not seem to originate from the I-phone he used.
PS great analysis and work Teeslaw
so I just finished reading the whole thing
and since it is in agreement with my assessment then it is awesome 😀
All kidding aside, in a former life I drew a lot of portraits (for actual pay) for a long time and certain skills when it comes to analyzing faces, I take for granted and as intuition when they are due to my training, and all my intuition tells me that this is doctored, even though I am no photshop expert.
Whonoze I really appreciate your calculated pragmatic approach on this
Whonoze, I am fascinated.
But could try to put matters more easily in the paragraph starting here: The horizontal axis of a photo doesn’t get scaled 2% more or less on the nose 🙂
Since the nose indeed sticks out quite a bit, I would really like to understand. Are you suggesting you could scale most of the photo but leave the nose region unscaled?
The observation with the right eye is indeed interesting. Someone should try to integrate all the work done on this photo. I guess you noticed the attempts to compare the line from the lines people drew–not sure how to put it–in comparative photos, and the nose had somehow shifted off that line. Understand what I mean or what I am alluding to?
I was also fascinated by the work of Treeslaw, and strictly I wonder why you didn’t use the same Although Whonoze may be the better choice since I have no idea what to make of Treeslaw. 😉
whonoze-
A seeker of truth and justice.
Great job!
Appreciate your perseverance.
Lots of good work whonoze.
I traced the eyes on one (the spd photo) and overlaid it on the other (the phone photo). The eyes line up. I think there is an optical illusion caused by excessive swelling on his right side (photo’s left). The bridge of the nose is straight but appears to be crooked for the same reason. We expect the nose to be symmetrical but this one isn’t because of lots more swelling on one side than the other. Notice the cut It’s on the same side as the swelling. There is a bit of swelling on the other side but not much. Optical illusion.
A fellow I met in an auto upholstery shop this morning turned me on to a bluegrass band named Devil Makes Three.
The name of this song is Graveyard.
i think it’s good! but i wouldn’t have thought it was bluegrass. i’d call it rock with real instruments like the old days.
The lyrics are very profound, and I like the acoustics. Thanks for sharing this.
I’m on Amazon..going to buy it for my husband for Christmas!
Professor, You’d better watch out what you say about any music group. The outhouse had a field day (mis)interpreting your comment, a while back, regarding the Greatful Dead song and being a “Dead Head”……. 🙄 lol
Grateful Dead…..now they can make jokes of my spelling error of that GREAT band……..
Nice tune!! I’m going to have check this group out..sounds like my kind of music.
I was very shocked by the 911 calls with the kid’s screams when I heard it last spring (I don’t know how Trayvon’s family and friends could stand it), and was so amazed by the lackadaisical police response that I began following the case. I mean, I’m an American, this is not some banana dictatorship… is it? In terms of sheer numbers, the number of pro-Fogen responses to the various news pieces was drowning out anything I could relate to, because I CANNOT relate to all the Zpieces released over the summer. So this blog’s legal deconstruction of detail after detail gives me hope that justice could maybe be blind– but then I remind myself, IT’S FLORIDA, so a murdering liar could be acquitted to kill again.
Glad I found it. Thank you so much. As of right now,there’s hope.
Interesting exercise, Professor. Well Done. If the photos were an example of FriginFogens injuries to prove their case, would the defence not include those photos in discovery. He waved them around the courtroom at the last hearing. But, he did not give the judge copies or enter them as evidence.
As far as the photos being manipulated or not, we will not know in this trial, IMO. This evidence will be used after the investigation of the SPD. Whilst the defence experts from the defence case in your exercise focus on pixels and dimensions, etc. to prove that the image has not been manipulated, I can not comment on the error of their ways because I would need to back up my claim with proof. I do not have the equipment to do so. I will just say, take it with a grain of salt if you wish, there is photo manipulation.
I do not own an IPhone but if I had bought one to use as a camera, it would be the worst choice I would make, it seems given your defence experts testimony.
My god-daughter owns one and she snaps pictures of everything right down to the dinner she is enjoying. Whether she is at a low-lighted classy restaurant or the brightly lit with no shadow food court at a mall. She then sends the photos to her friends. Of the hundreds (perhaps thousands), there is clarity, decent saturation of colour and little to no distortion. I was quite impressed by the quality.
I am trying to find a manipulated photo I did when Bill Clinton walked together in Stanley Park with our Prime Minister in Vancouver. For the fun of it, I inserted myself walking beside them. If I can find it, your experts will be free to analyse it. Crossing my fingers.
i just got an iphone4s a few weeks ago, but before i had an iphone3, and i took millions of pics with it and they were ok.
the iphone4 is better than my old one (iphone3) but not as good as the 4s. this one has a flash on it when it’s dark and more auto focus stuff that helps people like me.
i think you make a good observation in the quality of the pic taken of the bloody nose. it seems to be pretty decent but the one of the back of his head is not so good.. and BOTH were supposedly taken with an iphone4.
Im a male an use pockets a lot.For keys an money never a cell phone.Thing is whenever I use trouser pockets I never look down as they are always in the same location.So the defendant says Trayvon asked what his problem was.An his first instinct was to call 911?..Why..?…Asking someone what there problem is hardly an emergancy requireing L E..Was he expecting the suspect to calmly stand an listen as he phoned up 911 an say the real suspious guy has just asked me what my problem was….He needed an excuse as to why he never saw the punch comeing so invented the look down at my pockets excuse/lie.Wich makes about as much sense as his looking for an adress story /lie.There was no suprise attack at least not from Trayvon..If his intent was to blind side the defendant with a suprise attack from his rear..Why would he issue a warning by asking a question an alerting him..It wouldnt happen …I think the Jurours will be just as angry as we are that he murders a Youth an insults our intelegance with storys neither plauseable or feasable.
good point about the pockets always being in the same place.
so we know he’s lieing about that sucker punch.
you know in the last few days on numerous TV shows like law and order and the sort, i’ve heard GZ’s same lame story over and over.
i looked over there and he hauled off and punched me in the nose and i fell down. over and over..it’s the same ol same ol,
except he can’t use it because he couldn’t of fallen 40 feet down.
I agree, Colin, good point. I never realized but obviously none of us would look down to get something out of their pockets. Not sure about a jacket, but trousers definitively. No way ever.
There is of course the wider situation that won’t help him, at least I hope, in the eyes of the jury. Singleton put it best during her interrogation with no-name, But you had a problem! Answer by no name: No?
TThankyou for the article an I find you an the commenters most educateing.
Oh Professor Leatherman, here I thought you were going to opine on the two pictures of the BACK of Zimmerman’s head, and got all excited, because although I’ve practically ignored the silly “bloody nose” picture (worse damage can be done if you blow your nose too hard in winter and rupture a little capillary inside the nasal passage) I am still wondering about what I call the “riveting rivulets” pictures of the back of Fogen’s head. Here’s my problem with them:
1. The first one was allegedly taken by a by-stander on his personal cell phone at the scene before the police arrived, and Fogen appears to be sitting, speaking on a cell phone, with the cell phone at his right ear as the photographer shoots his head, tilted forward, from behind, in a dark area.
2. THEN we have, according to the police reports, a period of time during which the EMT cleans up Fogen’s head. With peroxide, in case we’re worried about that. And the EMT does not see fit to put any bandages on Fogen’s head, either Shellie style or Frankenstein style. Just like that, he’s cleaned up, ready to roll. Then Tim Smith drives him down to the station.
3. Then he gets out of the car and we see the video and there’s no blood on the back of his head. No blood on his mustache, no blood on his clothing, no blood on the crown of his head, on the back of his head, anywhere on him.
4. Then around midnight two pictures are taken: one of the front of his face and the other of the back of his head. He still has his red jacket on. THE RIVULETS APPEAR! They are approximately the same as they were before he got cleaned up.
Then, the picture is “given to ABC News” at a strategic time when the public coverage of the story looked very bad for Fogen.
Then, a journalist asks Mark O’Mara about the picture that has been revealed and he says, to paraphrase: “The defense is not sure IF the picture will be used or HOW.” After that, he does not refer to the headslamming injuries at all; he talks up Fogen’s broken nose.
Fogen got a konk on the head
says he thought he was gonna be dead
Killed a kid and then he said:
“Trust my story, A through Zed.”
But O’Mara quickly chose
to emphasize a broken nose.
“Forget these things and look at THOSE”
striking a hot-shot lawyer pose. 🙄
People ain’t as dumb as they look;
Read you like an open book.
Now you’re getting kinda shook,
’cause Trayvon Martin was not a crook! ❗
The back-of-head photos are fascinating. I remember discussions here some time ago about an “S” shaped inflammation on the back of the killer’s head, which shows in SPD photos taken on 2/26/12. There were comments about whether the marking correlated with a sprinkler system or a utility plate in the grass, etc.
The “S” shaped mark appears in photos #30 (and also #29) at:
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/?album=1&gallery=1
Since then, I’ve read a very intriguing article suggesting that the “S” shaped area as well as some other cuts to the back of the killer’s head correlate rather well with a theory of self-inflicted wounds from the Kel-Tec gun he used. It appears that this theory and supporting photo juxtapositions were offered by “itsallaboutmeash,” who, IIRC, posts comments here from time to time.
The article and supporting photos are at:
http://dothprotesttoomuch.com/2012/12/06/what-do-you-think/
yeah, i recently saw that theory too..
groans says:
December 17, 2012 at 11:59 pm
My camera does have a multiple exposure setting. I took a picture of the computer screen of Fogen’s head with the “s” or “u” and then took a picture of his gun…OMG! Lightbulb going on.
I tried to get the size to fit and think it’s a little different from the blogs picture. As I see it, the trigger area made the top U and the gun handle completed the S. The gun pic used in the blog is slightly different than Fogen’s gun in the police photos. His handle has the indents for the fingers. The left cut in his head lines up near the end of the gun. There is a raised area there right under the C in the word “Tec” on the gun.
Clear as the nose on your face. A kindergartner could have traced the outline of the gun into his head it is so clear. Lightbulb indeed!
I meant @ groan…not says. lol They’re my words not his. Sorry.
Oh, I didn’t see this posted the other day.
I find the obvious “shape” intriguing.
With so many bloggers visiting the area, I would hope that they were all looking at those concrete looking rectangles in the grass. They may be water/sprinkler covers. But, alas, no one has really focused on them. They may very well have shapes like this molded into them. Wish someone would post close-up shots of those things.
Rule them in or out…..
I truly believe the wounds on the back of his head are self inflicted by his gun. That is why Omara is not mentioning them anymore.But I have a question; if fogen confessed to his lawyer is his lawyer obligated to tell the proscecution.I was abused for 23 years by my ex husband got 6 stitches in my forehead once had black eyes .It’s amazing how much abuse a body can take.
@Pat Deadder: Defense counsel is not required to tell anything to anyone that is damaging to his client’s defense. Even more significant, defense counsel is not ALLOWED to tell anything to anyone that is damaging to his client. He could be disbarred. He must, however, reveal anything that has to do with any ongoing crime or planned crime. So if Fogen decides to get a witness knocked off, O’Mara would be obligated to reveal that as an officer of the court. But if O’Mara finds out that his client intimidated a witness in the PAST, he’s not allowed to tell. He should not, however, suborn perjury by putting that intimidated witness on the stand to testify in a way that O’Mara has reason to believe is false. We are unlikely to ever find out if any of this occurred. I’m pretty sure Taaffe’s been intimidating folks at RTL ever since this whole mess (including but not limited to the plan to make a hero out of Fogen) started. I will bet Taaffe and Lee were co-intimidators at the March 1, 2012 HOA meeting.
BTW:
Photos of the gun are #DSCN0253 and #DSCH0234 at:
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/?album=1&gallery=1
If this note looks odd, it’s because my previous entry (which will explain it) is awaiting moderation (perhaps because it includes two links?).
Love the poem lol
Malisha is a poet. Nice one.
He also claimed to have been hit in the face 12 times or 30-40 times which ever you chose to believe. but there is no bruising to his face no black eyes and of course no broken nose. i know about black eye i’ve had them i also know about getting beaten up i was beaten up years ago. When i came to i was behind a building.he must have dragged me behind the building. my black eyes took 2-3 days to heal.I had busted lips and i had bruising on my face. i was 18 at the time. i was 146lbs soaking wet he was 200lbs.
I am sorry that you had to endure such an awful experience and I hope the man went to prison for it.
I also hope that you healed mentally and emotionally as well as physically.
Interesting, but the difference in your respective weights is almost exactly the difference in weight between Trayvon and the defendant, who was 10 or 11 years older than Trayvon.
Best wishes and many blessings to you.
Fred
Thank you,he never was arrested. I was afraid to tell the police what the looked like,he was very popular and had a lot of friends. I haven’t heard of him in years. last i heard he did go to jail a few years later for assault and domestic violence. I still regret not telling the police what he looked like.I should have and let the chips fall where they may but i was scared.
>^..^< not stalking…
Proffesor, i think it worked great as usual! and i agree with you too- but for another reason.
i think it shows without a doubt he wasn’t in danger of mortal injury.
those booboos along with the video of him at the cop station with no need of a hand getting out of the car with his hands cuffed behind his back, agian prove he was absolutely fine.
add the pic of him sitting at the scene yapping on the phone (can’t wait to find out with who!!) instead of lying on the ground writhing in pain! or why isn’t he resting and crying and/or getting medical care?
I mean he should of been so concerned about a skull fracture or a concussion, or whiplash or something!! even the police and EMTs aren’t worried!
and then his nonchalant attitude during questioning.
all those reasons make me think jurors will be totally disgusted with the lies and the attempt to portray himself as the victim. with all the other stuff like the lack of DNA and time line and his own 311 call will be enough to convict him of murder.
****but as far as those pics go, i still need to know the experts credentials!!
not that i don’t believe them, it’s just that one lump on the left of nose still looks touched to me. to me the weird way the bump is blurry and so oval and then it’s just gone a few hours later!
i really would love a ENT doc to talk about what they see.
Was his question to the female officer the same night? The one about her not having to use her gun because people respect her. This is a ridiculous discussion following a life threatening event.
It was not the same night; it was the very next day, though. It was about 24 hours after the crime. FOGEN had requested a voice-stress test (I’m sure Osterman told him to request it; it’s very easy to pass) and was sitting waiting for the guy to show up and administer it.
I think he was probably calling Daddy.
There is something fishy with the bloody nose photo
Jun. There is somthing fishy about the ear also. JZ has an earring hole in his ear in the un-altered photo. Where is the hole in the altered photo. I say this because his head is slightly turned, therefore, it seems to me that we should be able to see more of his ear on the altered photo not less of the ear. JMO
I see the hole in both photos. It’s not so pronounced in first photo but it’s there.
Jun I agree with you. there’s something real suspicious about the bloody nose. There is NO died blood around his nose or in his mustache. The EMT’s must have done a real thorough job cleaning the thick dried blood from his mustache!
The only photo I believe is photoshopped is the bloody nose photo. But I do agree that it does not win the case for the defense because of the forensic evidence and the fact that the defendant not only aggressively stalked the victim, he also threatened and attacked the victim first. I feel the back of the head may make it in, but I am not sure about the bloody nose one because of the chain of custody and the many strange discrepancies within the foto
The tip of his nose where the fake blood is, does not have a highlight on it. That is impossible since blood is liquid and would definitely cast a highlight with such a close range flash. The color red is just too flat. Definitely fake!!!
The police station photos can be used as evidence. But I doubt that the back of the head photo that was supposedly taken by a witness will make it in, since its accuracy cannot be established.
In addition, the photo of GZ in the squad car debunks his claim of having blood in his eyes and others’ claims of his face and head being covered 45 percent with blood. The flowing of blood down his lip also points to his having hurt his nose AFTER killing Trayvon. He claims to have gotten punched by Trayvon at the T, to have swatted his attacker away for a few feet, and to have been mounted and beaten. If this were to have happened, blood WOULD have been in his eyes and all over his face (not to mention all over Trayvon too). The picture shows a fresh trickle of blood just under his nose and down his lip. I still say GZ conked his nose with his gun after killing the teen.
With each new piece of evidence, I find his original tales to be weirder and weirder.
How on earth could his followers accept his words at face value… paraphrased at points: “he didn’t run,” “going to find an address,” “what the f**k’s your problem, Homey,” “…he came back, walked along the grass, and circled my vehicle,” “I feel like he saw my gun,” “…you gonna die tonight,” “looking into the houses,” “I was about to pass out,” “…he kept struggling and cussing,” “…you got me.”
Rolling my eyes… oh brother!
One thing in these photos that really bothers me is the way the blood on the back of GZ’s head seems to be cut off at the top by a very straight line. Was GZ wearing a hat? If so where is it
oh wait a minute!! i think this is a pic of AFTER the EMTS checked GZ’s booboos!! i think we heard this awhile ago why there was a straight line in the back.
The reports say the EMTs just took a look at the tiny cuts by wiping away a little to see better!
OK, this messes up the whole time line again!
this pic was supposed to be when GZ had just finished murdering Trayvon and the witness took a quick pic of GZ and Trayvon’s body, right???? wtf i’m confused again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wouldnt the photo software tell us what time this pick was taken?has anybody checked??
follow
Good hands-on example of how the legal system might handle these photographs.
This is one reason why I’ve not had a large interest in the photos. Forensics do not lie. With no trace of GZ’s blood or DNA on Trayvon providing evidence of a beating, the photos serve no benefit to the defense. Additionally, by the EMT’s reporting that the blood on his head was dry when they cleaned him with peroxide, questions the timing that the injuries incurred.
The jury will also be tasked with information that with a purported, life-threatening beating, the defendant refused to go to the hospital. GZ made it through the night without prescription pain pills.
In his re-enactment the following day, he moved his arms and neck as though he had not been in a life or death struggle.
Xena, haven’t you seen this video on YouTube??
Yes, and there is also another video along the same lines. The position I’m considering is from the prosecution to the jury. Along with any experts, the prosecution must be able to break it down in simple communication to the jury.
One thing that, IMO, will get their attention and remain with them while they decide, is that in none of GZ’s statements does he allot for the time that photos were taken of him at the crime scene. His story is a flow that goes from seeing someone with a flashlight that he asked if he was a cop, to seeing another person with a flashlight who is a cop; raising his hands above his head; having the cop take his gun from its holster, handcuffing him and placing him in the backseat of the cruiser.
So, when was he sitting down on the ground using his cell phone and having a picture taken of the back of his head BEFORE the cops arrived and handcuffed him?
@ Xena I never even thought about that. When would the person have had time to take the pictures when I remember one witness saying that it was seconds from the gun fire to the police arriving.
GZ leaves quite a few things out of his statements and re-enactment. Along with leaving out when the resident took the photo of the back of his head, he makes no mention of when and why he dropped his key chain flashlight, neither when and why he dropped his tactical flashlight.
The tactical flashlight was found in the debris field close to Trayvon’s body. If we are suppose to believe GZ’s story, we have to believe that he held on to his tactical flashlight after being punched in the nose, while he shimmied 40 feet, had his head bashed on concrete and was smothered, while never using it in defense.
that video is a hoax
and the original pic comes from a neo-nazi web site
You are right Xena, Not only was there no time to have a “photo session”…Fogen doesn’t ever mention it as you stated. As a matter of fact, I can not imagine LE allowing anyone to photograph a person at a crime scene, but then again, it is SPD we are talking about.
If LE did mention it in one of their statements, I have not read that. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t believe I am.
Add to that the fact that Fogen asked a passer-by to “call my wife and tell her I shot somebody.” If he had his own cell phone and could sit there on the cell phone while doing a “head shot” for his next modeling job, how come he had to ask a bystander to call his wife?
And wouldn’t you think he’d be advising witnesses to be careful because of the possibility of other aggressors nearby, since he had not yet seen where Trayvon “emerged from the darkness” from?
Right. The photo of the back of GZ’s head could only have been taken before he was handcuffed — before T. Smith arrived. The question is, why would GZ’s story flow from being on Trayvon’s back to seeing a resident with a flashlight, to the cop arriving with the flashlight? His leaving out that he had a photo session while on his cell phone begs to question, what else did he do before T. Smith arrived?
Wagner reported taking a photo of GZ’s face while he was in the back of the patrol car, but there is no mention in the police reports of a .resident taking photos. As I understand it, the photos of the flashlight and Trayvon’s body were turned over to the State, whereas the photo of the back of GZ’s head was turned over to O’Mara. I could be wrong but IIRC, that photo was presented by O’Mara at GZ’s first bond hearing before the State released discovery material.
If you look at Wagners report, he states he arrived at the scene at 7:00. Others put approximately 7:15 or 7:20. I found that strange. Was the phone used by the neighbour taken for verification that he called the wife of FriginFogen. I would be interested in the number called. He said to call his wife because he had shot someone. This neighbour must know his number, know his wife, or know him. Yet, his statement does not reflect this knowledge. Did he use the killers phone. Interesting.
IIRC the neighbor who took he pictures did sign a release for the police to look into his information from his phone. If I find it I will post for you. Its in one of the discovery dumps.
grahase – Did Wagner really say 7:00? That has to be wrong. Trayvon didn’t even leave the clubhouse vicinity until after 7:00.
gblock:
From Wagners statement page 18 of 18 – 1st document dump.
1900 hrs. according to his statement.
I appreciate the work that shows that the photos are most likely genuine. The idea that an officer would deliberately photoshop a crime scene photo suggests huge corruption. There may be corruption, but I’m relieved that this is unlikely to be a part of it.
That is not point of the article. If you don’t think there is corruption in this case, well. don’t know what to tell you then..
I agree fully professor. The blood flow is a HUGE factor in those pictures. Not at all consistent with fogens narrative
Give GZ his photo’s his fight, his story
Then follow the blood flow