The Two Photographs of the Defendant’s Head Damage the Defense

Monday, December 17, 2012

After reviewing and considering the remarks by Zhickel, Grbsb, Jun and Whonoze (AKA: Treeslaw), I am going to put on my judge’s robe and issue the following ruling:

I find that neither photograph was altered and, therefore, both photographs are authentic and admissible at trial.

This is not a bad result for the State, as you will soon see.

In effect and by design, because I set it up this way, we have had our own internet version of a battle-of-experts pretrial hearing regarding the admissibility of the two digital photographs taken at the scene of the homicide by Officer Wagner (face) and the neighbor named Jon (back of the head).

The legal issue was whether the photos were authentic (i.e., originals or authentic reproductions) or fraudulent reproductions (i.e., altered).

Zhickle (nice to see your fonts again) and Grbsb in effect testified as experts for the defense while Jun and Whonoze testified as experts for the State.

There has to be a winner and on balance I decided for the defense because giving them what they want on this issue does not hurt the State’s case and I did not want to give them an appellate issue that might result in reversing the defendant’s conviction.

In other words, I am thinking strategically, or big picture, rather than focusing on the relative merits of each argument.

I predict Judge Nelson will reach the same conclusion for the same reason.

Just as I would do, I predict she will permit the prosecution to use their experts to acknowledge the distortions in the photos and explain why they are present, just as our four experts did. Such factors will go to the weight, or value of the evidence, rather than its admissibility.

The jury will decide how much weight to give to those photos. The greater the distortion, the less weight they are likely to be given.

The photos taken at the station house also will be admitted. Those photos together with expert testimony from one or more trauma surgeons should establish to a reasonable medical certainty that the defendant’s injuries, including his claimed but unverified “broken nose” were minor and inconsistent with the defendant’s narrative claiming how he got them.

The absence of any detectable trace of blood on the cuffs and lower sleeves of Trayvon Martin’s two sweatshirts and the absence of the defendant’s DNA in Trayvon Martin’s fingernail clippings also do not support the defendant’s narrative, as one would expect detectable amounts of the defendant’s blood and DNA in both areas. That is, despite the rain, detectable amounts of blood and DNA would have been present, if the defendant’s narrative were true.

In addition, the pattern of blood flow as depicted in the photo taken at the scene, before an EMT cleaned his head, shows blood flowing in a downward direction toward and curling around the lower end of his ears, which does not support the defendant’s claim that he was lying on his back. Instead, it shows that his head was upright and leaning forward, which is consistent with the defendant straddling Trayvon Martin, as several witnesses described him doing (Selma and the teacher).

These photos do not help the defense case. Considered together with the physical evidence, they appear to not only rule out the possibility that the defendant was reasonably in fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury, they also appear to rule out Trayvon Martin as the person who caused those wounds.

Given some minor scratches to his face, it appears more likely that the defendant ran into a tree branch in the dark bumping his nose and fell down bumping his head on some object, possibly a sprinkler head or cover, or possibly the edge of the cement sidewalk or a sign. Whatever caused them, it was not likely to have been Trayvon because there is no evidence that Trayvon Martin hit the defendant.

Even if he did hit him, I think the jury will find that he was legally justified to do so in self-defense because the defendant followed him first in his vehicle and then on foot into a dark area where he confronted and attempted to detain him without ever identifying himself, contrary to the police dispatcher’s admonition and the Neighborhood Watch rules.

I hope this exercise was helpful to a better understanding of hearings on motions in limine, battles between experts and the strategic considerations that inform judicial thinking.

Thanks to all of you for participating and please give me some feedback regarding whether this worked for you as a learning experience.

1,399 Responses to The Two Photographs of the Defendant’s Head Damage the Defense

  1. Malisha says:

    I actually believe the reason Tim Smith was first on the scene is that he knew that Fogen was going to “bring in his suspect” that evening. I think Taaffe knew, Osterman knew, Shellie knew, and Tim Smith (at least) knew that 2/26/2012 was the day that Fogen was going to bring in his suspect. He had tried to do it on 2/2/2012 and failed; on 2/7/2012 “the suspect who got away” was arrested, and on 2/26/2012, he was going to succeed. Smith was on his way to the neighborhood before being dispatched. That’s my guess.

    The FBI may be able to figure out what happened and they may not. Lee might have undone all evidence of what really took place that night before the FBI’s involvement began. I suspect him of having gotten rid of the notes or memos relating to the 3/1/2012 HOA meeting and the complaints previously phoned in by residents about Fogen’s “patrolling” conduct. There definitely is the hint of shredding about this case.

    The first FOIA showed that the SPD report to the Miami Herald about “one other shooting” at RTL was a flat out lie. Obviously the rest of the “public information” handed out by that den of thieves cannot be trusted either. We will probably never know the true extent of the corruption and cover-up activity in that department.

    On thing I would like to say — we should revisit “The Christopher Serino files.” Since there were three (3) drafts of his memo before the capias issued on 3/13/2012, and the first two (2) of those drafts suggested a charge of Murder-2 against Fogen, my own assessment of what Serino was doing has changed. My belief was that Serino was reluctantly agreeing to go along with letting Fogen go, but he was too smart, after having spoken with Tracy Martin, to believe that there would not be an enormous public stink about it. So I believed he was so clever he had thought of a way to satisfy both the public demand for justice AND the police department demand for protection of the shooter: the statute of the Florida law that would be used for a cop who had accidentally killed a suspect during the commission of a crime. There had been a Florida case where an officer was charged with that crime, convicted, and then the conviction was overturned specifically because the deceased person had not actually been engaged in any crime so the statute did not apply. In other words, if Fogen pled to or was convicted of the charge Serino ended up suggesting in the capias, he would have been either freed when the charge was dismissed or freed when the appeal declared that he had been tried under the wrong statute — and THEN he could not be retried because of double jeopardy. In fact, Fogen is unlucky that the capias was NOT followed through to the end, because that would appear to be a very devious but utterly undeniable way of forever liberating him from the charges.

    Serino was not actually trying to do that, by hook OR by crook. Serino knew that Fogen had committed murder and he was trying to get him charged with murder. It is my guess that Lee and Wolfinger were the two who prevented it. I believe they should both be charged with obstruction of justice or with the federal charge under 18 USC 242 of deprivation of civil rights under color of state law. They ought to be able to socialize with Fogen once he’s incarcerated; maybe all three of them can deal with their addiction to power. Do they have Powermongers Anonymous meetings in prison?

    • JUN says:

      I dont think so because Zimmernuts is not a cop, he only pretends to be, when he is on his “patrols” but he lacks authority in real life. I feel the prosecution or the cops at the time, simply did not want to do the job or perhaps there is truth to the not enough evidence. Trayvon was not engaged in any crime, therefore, there was no need or necessity to follow or pursue the kid, let alone terrorize and threaten the kid’s life so that Fogenhats could live out his fantasy.

      • Eric says:

        The fact that the body of Martin was found 40 ft. away from where Zimmerman said he was attacked was proof. The SPD is corrupt and simply decided to sweep this under the rug.

  2. SearchingMind says:


    @ Xena et al

    “From the Miami Herald;
    “My guy is innocent and the evidence strongly supports that,” O’Mara said in an interview earlier this month. “Someone should drop $1 million in his defense fund account so he can get a real defense. He’s been put through the wringer.”

    Very impressive indeed. O’Mara goes from: ‘the arrest and indictment of Zimmerman is politically motivated; all the evidence support Zimmerman’s story of self-defense; Zimmerman should therefore not have been arrested, let alone charged with any crime’ to ‘I need ‘1.000.000. USD’ to provide “real defense”! if all the evidence support Zimmerman’s claims, etc., what does O’Mara need a million dollar (+ the already received 340.000,00. USD) for? The ‘Zimmerman-legal-defense-fund’ has in fact turned into a business enterprise designed to generate economic revenues for Zimmerman, his lawyers and their family members. This is a shame. “Not even Baez could not have dared do this. But when the dead kid is a Negro, I guess everything is possible” – says, of all persons, my dad (!) (the old man knew all along that something terrible happened to Trayvon but could not admit it openly). I used to be of the opinion that O’Mara, while not an extremely bright lawyer, is a good and decent man. I have changed my mind. I think O’Mara’s is getting dangerously pretentious, overly avaricious and (potentially) corrupt. Greed may have indeed become the prime-mover in the ‘Zimmerman-legal-defense-fund-saga’ and may have started to fatally impair O’Mara’s ability to make reasonable evaluation of the strength of the case against Zimmerman and provide him (Zimmerman) with effective legal counsel (something I actually consider good news).

    • cielo62 says:

      Searching Mind- I also scratched my head at that comment. If the evidence is so “clear”, why would he need much money at all? So far , MOM has not done any serious review of the forensic evidence at all. He will be totally blown out of the water when the trial starts. Not that I care. But as a defense lawyer, he sucks. > >

      Sent from my iPod

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Now that the supremacist know that GZ isn’t white, not another penny shall they get. The simple process of elimination lets one figure out which crowd the money came from. It wasn’t from the “gun nuts” because the gun issues are still there and intact.

      It wasn’t from GZ supporters, because they’re still on the boards and giving nothing at all.

      It has to be from the racists who lost their will to support GZ, when he revealed that he wasn’t Lilly white! That’s when the money ceased to arrive.

      Hey, MOM, you said you’d weren’t going to accept money from racists so now’s the time to give it all back. lol

  3. colin black says:

    Thing is Ive read that both iunior z an the defendant are addopted from the Sister of the woman whom now claims to be the Mother

    If this is true then either Pa Pa Zim put it in where he shouldnt have bin..Or he is not the bio father of any of the brothers..Also brings into question of the Cousin alleged molestation.If he was indeed adopted where they cousins by blood.Or perhaps even closer related ?

  4. colin black says:

    whonose..A postscript:
    According to Smith’s written report he did not speak to GZ during their ride to the police station. If you trust that account, I think his family owns a bridge in NYC they’d like to sell you.

    They have to lie an say no verbal exchanges took place..As what was disscussed would not be for public ears or anyones ears..PS Xena yes I noticed those two trees at the cut throughs besides the houses…

  5. whonoze says:

    Some facts:

    1. Ofc. Ricardo Ayala was dispatched to respond to GZ’s NEN call.

    2. Ofc. Tim Smith was the first officer to arrive at the scene following W11’s 911 call.

    3. SPD chief Bill Lee went to the crime scene.

    4. SAO Norm Wolfinger went to the crime scene.

    It’s been said that it is unusual for a Police Chief and a State’s Attorney to appear at a crime scene. There has been speculation that RZSr. had connections, and pulled some strings to get these high officials to the scene. But, in light of Malisha’s assessment that GZ and Smith were both part of Bill Lee’s ‘posse’ in terms of inter-departmental politics at SPD, I wonder…

    Some questions:

    1. Why/how did Smith get to RATL before Ayala?

    2. Who called Bill Lee to apprise him there was “a situation”?

    3. Who called Norm Wolfinger and initiated his involvement?

    4. Who picked Smith to escort GZ back to SPD? (it wasn’t Chris Serino, as GZ had been taken from the scene before Serino arrived.)

    Some speculation:

    1. Smith hears over the police radio that his buddy GZ has called in a suspicious person report and decides, on his own initiative to head over to RATL to see what’s what. So he’s already on the way there when the 911 call comes in, enabling him to beat Ayala to the scene.

    2. As Smith arrests someone he knows, someone he knows is “a friend of Bill Lee,” he realizes that this is not the usual shooting, but is “a situation” and he calls Chief Lee.

    3. Lee, looking for some cover, calls Wolfinger, and convinces him to come to the scene, due to the potential gravity of the case

    4. GZ knew he had a chance to walk on this shooting the second he saw a familiar face coming to arrest him. That’s why he declared, “I shot him” as soon as Smith arrived, to clue Smith in to what was happening. Lord knows what kind of whispered conversation the two might have had if JonW13 had not been standing there, and had Smith and GZ not known they were also being observed by Selma Mora and Mary Cutcher. (Not only had the two women spoken to him, but he would have seen them continue to watch him. Their silhouettes are clearly visible in one of the crime scene photos, as they stand in their back doorway, backlit by the interior lights of their home.)

    A call for action:

    If I had subpoena power (say, if I was Eric Holder), I would supoena the complete communication records of the SPD from 2/26/12, and also the personal cell phone records of Smith, Lee, and Wolfinger. I’d want to know who called who, and when. I doubt anyone from the Federal Justice Department is reading this, but just in case, could you do that, to try to help getting to the bottom of this sewer?

    A postscript:
    According to Smith’s written report he did not speak to GZ during their ride to the police station. If you trust that account, I think his family owns a bridge in NYC they’d like to sell you.

    • Malisha says:

      Whonoze, they have sold that bridge already. Apparently title transferred to the Outhouse on 2/27/2012. But the property value has dropped since that date.

  6. Malisha says:

    Folks, why don’t we go over to the “Cyber Bullies” thread that only has 112 comments on it, and just continue our on-line conversation there until Professor puts up a new thread that takes less time to load? I’m going over there to post something now so it comes up on the “follow” ntoices. 🙂 ❓

  7. Two sides to a story says:

    Usually people who molest others have been molested themselves.

    • Xena says:

      Usually people who molest others have been molested themselves.

      That’s true. For a child to repeat behavior of sexual molestation on other children however, while knowing it’s wrong, has an emotion buried in it other than, and maybe opposite to, shame and hurt. An 8 yr old getting pleasure from molesting a cousin younger than him displays a certain mental dysfunction that some psychologist would probably pay to study.

      • Malisha says:

        They’re getting into control of something that they experienced that deprived them of the proper amount of control of their own lives. It’s basically “the story of Fogen’s life,” whether or not he molested his cousin, whether or not he was himself molested.

        A child who is placed in a situation where he is out of control of his own emotions, feels shame and guilt, and is very much overpowered without being able to understand the situation (thus emotionally overwhelmed) will often spend the rest of his childhood and even most of the rest of his life doing maladjusted forms of “instant replay” to get into control of the experience by all the wrong methods. (I think the only RIGHT method is probably to come to some sort of realization that it happened, it cannot be unhappened, it doesn’t need to be unhappened, and life can go on anyway.)

        Look at Fogen’s need for control, expressed first so horribly by him and then echoed stupidly and meanly by Taaffe and various family members repeatedly. Why was Trayvon so wrong in everything he ever did all his life? Because Fogen wasn’t in control. There’s Taaffe saying Trayvon took the wrong route home. Dave says he had his reasons for taking the “wrong route” home; will Taaffe agree? No. All Trayvon’s reasons were also wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. Because Taaffe, Fogen, whoever, would have had him do something different, his doing whatever he chose to do was WRONG. These are control freaks. They are trying to get back into control of something that they will never in their lives get into control of. Look at the mess in Taaffe’s life. An old abandoned wreck whose family has restraining orders out against him, who mutters around his own neighborhood carrying on and complaining. People are still stealing? Terrible. Why doesn’t he get out there and do good Neighborhood Watch work so he can begin to control the crime in the neighborhood then? No? Out of control, huh? Still talking about how Trayvon took the wrong route home on 2/26/2012.

        Fogen himself: Couln’t control the way Singleton and Serino were seeing things. Kept telling them, “No-ho-oooo,” when they asked if he was pursuing Trayvon Martin. Damn, he had already told them, why were they asking again? “No-ho-ooo!” With that little smirk, I can bet.

        Couldn’t control the way the media portrayed him. Bad media, Bad media. Only report what I SAY!

        Now Fogen won’t even be in control of his bedtime and when he can take his meds. Now he will only get phone calls when somebody else gives him a chance. And I think Shellie is sick and tired of his control and she has flown the coop.

    • Xena says:

      I found something on Wiki with references:
      “In the etiology of child-on-child sexual abuse, young children who have not matured sexually are incapable of knowing about specific sex acts without an external source.[4][5][6] Consequently, children who initiate or solicit overtly sexual acts with other children most often have been sexually victimized by an adult beforehand,[4][5][7] or by another child who was in turn abused by an adult.[8][9] … In some instances, the perpetrating child was exposed to pornography or repeatedly witnessed sexual activity of adults at a very young age, as this also can be considered a form of child sexual abuse.”

      • Malisha says:

        An interesting statistic, that may be OT, about child sexual abuse and incest. Statistically, more of the boys who are molested become molesters, while statistically, more of the girls who are molested become victims. This includes women who become prostitutes (again, trying to get into control of the experience that cannot be retroactively controlled) (and having the illusion that because they’re arranging the sexual encounters with the johns and collecting money for them, they are somehow “in control” of them) and women who end up in jail or prison (much higher proportion of them have been molested as children than in the general population).

        My theory is that the purpose the society in general has in protecting and even promoting incest is to create a class of exploitable women. Since our society had to give up the legalized exploitation of a whole underclass (as a result of emancipation, “reconstruction” and civil rights), its need for an unspoken underclass of exploitable individuals became more pronounced.

        I’ll get off this soapbox now. Fogen’s cousin’s experience of him as a child is just as irrelevant as Osterman’s belief that Fogen had a minor army of African American friends, except that the cousin’s story makes sense, is internally consistent and is probably true. On the other hand, I have to believe that if the Black community in Seminole County never knew Fogen’s name until he killed one of their kids on a “punk-hunting adventure.”

        It doesn’t matter. Fogen profiled, chased and killed Trayvon Martin with ill will, malice and a depraved mind.

      • cielo62 says:

        My bet us in the step-mom Gladys, who never liked GZ anyway.

        Sent from my iPod

  8. grahase says:

    Take a look at Trayvon in the 7-11 video. He has a long hoody on. He has pants that hang low. If he were to have his hands in his waistband, he would have to lift the hoody in order to put his hand in his waist band. He would also have to have extra long arms. Watch as he puts his hands into his pocket for money. How could Fogen see Trayvon put his hand in his waistband. Just plain stupid. If anything, he may have put his hands in the pouch to keep his hands warm. Waistband!! Hilarious.

    • cielo62 says:

      “Hands on their waistband” is cop- speak for “fearing for my life from a hidden gun”. GZ was once again pretends to be a cop and tries to use the jargon that usually lets cops get away with murder. But he’s not w cop, had no business following the “suspect” and thus no reason to fear for his life from a waistband!

      Sent from my iPod

    • Xena says:

      What a nice Christmas present for Junior. (snark)

    • Jun says:

      Zimmernuts Fogenhats the 3rd seems to scheme everyone, including his family

      I think there are skeletons within that family closet and some blackmail going on in the back theatre

      • Xena says:

        @Jun, you mean skeletons such as why an 8 yr old would sexually molest his cousin and know to tell her that if anyone asks what they’re doing, to say “Laying down”? I do see an association between Junior being gay, how their mom handled that, and GZ sexually molesting at such a young age while apparently, knowing it was wrong.

      • Jun says:

        That is one of the skeletons in the closet that is being unearthed

        I believe there is more than the surface than what the family of the defendant are trying to present

        It would make sense why they are fighting so hard to portray the “wholesome family America” image

        as that may be the prerequisite as the defendant may be blackmailing by threatening to unearth it

      • whonoze says:

        Maybe not blackmail per se, Jun, but I think you’re onto something. The skeletons may come out of the closet, and they want to keep that door shut. So GZ himself may not need to say anything because they all know what’s what.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Interesting video. Thanks for all your work.

    • Malisha says:

      Brilliant! I laughed so hard I nearly turned into a you-know-what. Tee hee!

  9. Xena says:

    From the Miami Herald;
    “My guy is innocent and the evidence strongly supports that,” O’Mara said in an interview earlier this month. “Someone should drop $1 million in his defense fund account so he can get a real defense. He’s been put through the wringer.”

    Well, there we have it! O’Mara has stated that without a million dollars, he cannot provide GZ with a real defense. I suppose that means he’s been providing an unreal defense, such as arguing issues to please GZ’s supporters so they will send more money.

    They had better hurry up — only 3 months to ready GZ for his immunity hearing. He needs about $334,000 a month for a real defense, and that doesn’t include the $27,000 that he owes to the security firm.

    • Jun says:

      Omara is treating the media like a letter to Santa

      he is hoping for a million dollars LMAO

      • cielo62 says:

        And like Santa (who doesn’t exist) will not give it to him.

        Sent from my iPod

        • Xena says:

          LOL@Cielo62. Yep. Hope that GZ and ShelLIE got the other security company to do their Christmas shopping for them before they were fired. But then, all of the Zimmerrmans cry broke so there probably was no gift exchange.

        • racerrodig says:

          Wait !! What do you mean Santa doesn’t exist ?? I’ll argue he brought us all a nicely wrapped 2nd degree murder charge and all those statements and interviews. Not to mention all that forensic evidence, the strength of the Martins / Fultons & the prosecution team. Then there’s that lawsuit against him. Santa…..thanks !!

          Merry Christmas Fogen…….I can’t wait for the New Year !!

      • Xena says:

        Amazing, isn’t it? GZ doesn’t have money for expert witnesses, and I doubt there is sufficient money to conduct more depositions. Oh — and we shouldn’t forget that GZ has to pay $8 a day for his GPS monitoring.

      • Jun says:

        At first he was like

        “6 months, we will be ready” says Omara

        then after 6 months

        “We need to extend our time period, but we will ask for a SYG hearing for April 2013”

        then they were told that trial is set for June 2013 and he has until April 2013 to set up the trial for the SYG

        “We need more time”

        “We need a million dollars”

        I doubt he gets a million but if I were Omara and got a million, I would pocket the mill, pay the security with a tip, ask for a plea bargain, and then be over and done with and take a nice vacation LOL

  10. Malisha says:

    The nonsense about “following was not illegal” and “carrying a gun was not illegal” and “reporting Trayvon as suspicious was not illegal” and “blah blah blah” is irrelevant in light of the hollowpoint bullet in Trayvon Martin’s heart. Shooting Trayvon Martin was illegal. Those acts that preceded it simply SHOW it to have been illegal, because they show that it was Fogen, not Trayvon Martin, who was the aggressor in the situation. No amount of “legality” changes the situation.

    The Taaffe/Osterman/Fogen version of events would have it that Fogen was a weak, stupid, bumbling non-racist fool instead of a murderer. They like that version only because it would, if credible, get Fogen off his obligatory 25 years in prison. But look at what you are expected to believe if you want to go with that explanation:

    1. Fogen thought there was no chance of the police acting in a sufficiently protective manner, faced with the threat of a “suspicious guy,” unless he found an address and/or street name to give them, although that address and/or street name would have nothing to do with the location of the “suspicious guy” once “he ran.”

    2. Trayvon Martin was “running” and then decided to stop running and to turn around and confidently attack Fogen with intent to kill.

    3. Trayvon Martin easily overcame Fogen and was brutalizing him and would have continued to do so until Fogen was dead if not hot through the heart with a hollowpoint bullet.

    4. Trayvon Martin heard a neighbor announce that he was about to call 911 but that did not cause Trayvon Martin to give up the beating and flee to avoid arrest.

    and, last but not at all least,

    5. Three or more full-force punches to Fogen’s face and three or more full-force bashes of Fogen’s head to the concrete resulted in a teensy bloody nose, producing a thimble-full of blood on Fogen’s face, and two capillary-type lacerations on the back of Fogen’s head producing another thimble-full of blood, which dripped down toward his ears from a more central position as Fogen lay on his back enduring the beat-down.

    So believing all that, regardless of what Trayvon Martin ever did, in high school, at the 7-11, or that very night, is necessary and not even (at that) sufficient to believing that Fogen killed in self-defense. And the bottom line is:


    • Jun says:

      I agree

      because if we were to do the math, it is very easy because to chase someone, one person has to be running away, and the other is going after them

      in this situation

      the defendant went after Trayvon

      hence the defendant started it, because he went after the other party aggressively, hence the term “aggressor”

    • Xena says:

      The nonsense about “following was not illegal” and “carrying a gun was not illegal” and “reporting Trayvon as suspicious was not illegal” and “blah blah blah” is irrelevant in light of the hollowpoint bullet in Trayvon Martin’s heart.

      You would think that the Zidiots would take note of this based on the decision in the Dooley case. Bring that up to them however, and they deflect to arguing about race, effectively conveying that Dooley had no right to kill a White man and manslaughter should have been 1st degree murder because Dooley had his gun on him while washing his car and walking out of his garage.

      It’s not about law, and facts, and evidence with the Zidiots. It is all about race. Junior continues confirming this.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      The point is, they’re taking each action separately and apart from the other actions. While each action alone is not illegal, the fact is that all of these actions happened together and taken together they are illegal.

      • racerrodig says:

        For the most part I agree, but when he said Trayvon was acting suspicious, that was a blatant lie. He railroaded Trayvon in his NEN call.

        I’m sick of Zidiots saying Zimwit was railroaded…..I ask “by who” nobody did a thing to railroad Fogen. The entire NEN call is strictly to set Trayvon up. That is textbook “Railroading”

  11. Malisha says:

    Exactly correct, Colin B. What is absent from all the Outhouse (and Jeralyn Merritt and Alan Dershowitz and etc. etc.) narrations about the events is the fact that Trayvon Martin had not only an absolute right to stand his ground, but he had a right to self-defense if SYG wouldn’t do it. They don’t feel embarrassed to suggest that Trayvon Martin should have humbly responded to any approach by Fogen as if Fogen was “the MAN” and he had to show his subjection and subservience. And these folks are not even, for the most part, aware of how racist that assumption is.

    Even the guy who sponsored Florida’s SYG law said that it did not apply in this case to Fogen. Fogen was not standing his ground; he was pursuing Trayvon Martin in order to deprive Trayvon Martin of HIS GROUND. In a public place. Without authority.

    • Jun says:

      I find that they usually argue that the chase and the pursuance and stalking can not be proven

      Then when you prove the story of the address hunt is false and you have proof of the stalking and chase and show it

      they then say you can not attack someone for following you

      then when you show them that during the dark of the night, as a kid, unarmed, and you run away from someone, and then the creepy stranger keeps trying to get you no matter where you run, that stranger with a gun stalking you, would put anyone in a reasonable fear of danger because the kid’s fear was actually correct because he ended up getting killed…

      so yeah, under SYG, Trayvon would have a right to stand his ground with reasonable force…

      they then state that there is no way for Trayvon to know Zimmernuts had a gun

      then you tell them that the defendant threatened the kid with it, and killed him with the gun, so, the kid obviously saw the murder weapon, hence the screaming

      they then go back to claiming the vicious attack, and you cant defend yourself against a stalker, who happens to be armed with a gun

      So basically, their theory and conclusion is kids, when chased by strangers with guns, should simply submit to the stranger’s will, because…

      well they have not given any reason except that Crump is a bad lawyer, and it is Al Sharpton’s fault

      • racerrodig says:

        Tell the lot of them to stick it in their collective ears and blame me. Then they’ll see what one can do to defend themselves verbally.

        You have it nailed but good. Blame everyone else.

      • Jun says:


        They are really difficult to be reasonable with, and use reasoning but they do not listen because of their bias

        I forgot to add that they like to blame the media

        • Xena says:

          I forgot to add that they like to blame the media

          Oh yes, they blame the media for reporting GZ as White. It just demonstrates more of their ignorance because the media reported based on the police reports, and the first police reports provide GZ’s race as “White,” just as subsequently, does his physician.

          But, this also demonstrates their lack of facing reality because what if GZ had been first reported as Hispanic? Would that have made a difference when we all heard GZ’s NEN call? Would it make a difference once knowing what GZ believed about the Ware case? Rather than try to present the Ware case as GZ not being racially bigoted, it serves instead to support that GZ knows the SPD is racially bigoted.

      • Xena says:

        they then say you can not attack someone for following you

        When I used to comment on Yahoo articles, this was one argument I would address. The motive for following is what can make it unlawful. GZ expresses a bad faith motive when saying, “Shit. He’s running.” Without asking for directives, GZ independently decided to get out of his truck and follow Trayvon at a fast pace. How do we know it was a fast pace? For the same reason that the dispatcher knew.

        GZ intended to catch-up to Trayvon and when he did, we can bet he was not going to say “I don’t have a problem.”

      • Jun says:


        The other part of the argument is they also get mad when you tell them that what the defendant was doing is “stalking”

        I actually had some person start yelling racial slurs at me, and called me a “3rd world chink who should not be inside of America” because I stated the defendant was stalking

        I actually agree, as that is one of the reasons they made stalking a crime, because generally when a stranger keeps pursuing and following you everywhere and making you apprehensive and scared, the victim of the stalking is generally right, because stalker’s do not in a large percentage, have good intentions, when stalking their victims, as was shown in this case

        Whether you want to use the legal definition, or the dictionary definition, or both, the defendant was in actuality stalking and he did not have good intentions considering his before killing actions and statements

        It is reasonable for anyone to be apprehensive about a stranger stalking them, and continually trying to get them, no matter where they ran away to, especially a stranger who was armed with a gun, an attitude, and a physical, mental, and experienced combat and violence advantage over them

        It was so obvious that even the dispatcher figured he was stalking the kid, hence him asking if he was following the kid, and then told him that pursuing the kid was unnecessary

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      These arguments about who had what rights are trumped and rendered false by the simple fact that GZ wore no uniform, had no badge, no police powers, no right to “investigate” anyone or anything at all, and certainly no right to remain unidentified, before, during or after any contact with a complete stranger!

      When he admits that Trayvon is a complete stranger, someone he does not know and knows absolutely nothing about, his ability to do anything at all, except converse and identify himself, ends for the purposes at law. Because he has witnessed no crime or even criminal activity, he is barred from accosting, confronting, detaining or following anyone! Less, under the color of NW.

      Thus he is completely and totally without a defense for his words, actions and deeds of that night!

  12. Merry Christmas, everyone! I hope all had a wonderful Christmas with family and friends. Enjoy it to the fullest and stay safe!

  13. colin black says:

    Malisha says:

    December 25, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    Ever notice how with all the carryings on the NRA has done, talking about how more guns are needed to prevent violence, not one single solitary NRA spokesperson has yet to say:

    “Trayvon Martin should have been armed that night; if he had been armed, he’d be alive today.”

    Reply.Indeed he would be alive to day.Alive in a prison cell with no possability of reform.But just sheer vindictive punishment. Or spend the rest of his life on death row

    Or If he is lucky gets pared death an has thirty forty fifty yrs hard labour to endure.Slaverey for all in tensive purposes…You honestly beleive if Trayvon pulled out a weapon cause foggen was stalking him ..

    And said why are you chaseing me in car an now on foot ?An gz pulled his gun out tried to grab Trayvon….Whweupon Trayvon moves back levels his own firearm an says drop your weapon or I will shoot..In responce gz reaches for his gun an prepares to fire..Trayvon wins an drops him there an then saveing his own life from this mucho loco ….Now if theases circumstances ocoured can anyone .Even with a vivid imagination

    Forsee Trayvons feet touching the ground till he landed in a Sandford Police cell,,,An how long would it take …S P D…To trace an find the most incompitent public preteder .Theyve got some doozies in Florida .the guy that defended /crusufied alleen wournarous is a prime example like a reject from the fabulous furry freak brothers.Trayvon would not have been given the benefit of stand your ground .Protecting himsef from a strager who blindsided him from the bushes along an unlit dog walk .Told me I was going to die an I was terrified for mt small brothe r .He couldve seen mr leave or enter my house what if he killed my new wee bro .An sat an killed my dad an his fiance as thet returned home,,,,Do you think they would give him any creedace for logic an common sence?..But fogen gets a pass on any old waffle.

    Whent in house killed my

  14. gbrbsb says:

    Good tidings to all for these holidays and the new year 2013. Felices fiestas!

  15. Jun says:

    I do not feel we should call Zimmernuts Fogenhats The 3rd, a vigilante, because vigilantes are out to kill bad guys and people who commit violent crimes. The defendant just murdered a kid for walking around looking about, going home with candy. Let us be correct and just call him a predator and a scheming liar.

    • ladystclaire says:

      Exactly and, I agree with you 110%. he is worse than any monster that I know of and, his days are surely numbered. so is his father’s and his tambourine player brother. the two of them are going around on different blog sites spewing their lies and hatred towards this innocent kid that their worthless family member murdered in cold and, I mean very cold blood.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Errr… NO! Vigilantes, may be out to get the “bad guys”, but they get their bad name because they’re administering “justice” without a trial to test the evidence for or against the accused.

      Thus a vote for vigilantes is a vote to convict a without trial. Is that the kind of society anyone here wants to live in? If so, there are still plenty of countries on earth where one can go to experience living under that kind of system, usually the country is very backwards in other things as well.

      Both GZ, his family and the SPD are telling us the don’t believe in the value of the U.S. Constitution and that “trial by jury” should be done away with in “certain” cases. SYG states also don’t believe in the U.S. Constitution and would allow police and others to “try” matters right there on the spot, with no appeals possible.

      I remember a time in America, when we all respected, observed and demanded that the Constitution be enforced for all equally. That was the goal we were always trying to achieve and that we had various groups fighting to be included under Constitutional protections. Today, however, we have millions of people who, whether they know it or not, are enamored of letting corporations make the laws for them. My guess is they haven’t studied history, or they’d realize that has been tried before and it failed miserably.

      My problem with it is, not so much that it does fail, but how it fails! See “Les Miserables” for instruction on that. I sincerely doubt that public officials have any interest in revisiting those days. Yet they seem blissfully unaware of how their submissiveness is leading them down that same path again.

      • cielo62 says:

        Lonnie- to piggy back on your observations, there was a time when unions were the only force willing to stand against corporate abuses. And yet people are willing to blame unions for all their ills today! Do they really think corporations gave us 5 day workweeks, 40 hour work loads per week, paid vacations and safe working conditions from the goodness of their avaricious souls? Ignorance is dangerous. Complacency is the ground where evil and injustice breed. That is why it is so important to have blogs like this, people willing to make a stink when cops become thugs and murderers and cops protect thugs and murderers.

        Sent from my iPod

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          …And let me piggy back on you: The single, biggest and most effective cause of people failing to think for themselves is: DEBT.
          Remember how college campuses were the single biggest source of protest? Observe how docile these youths of today are, now that they’ve been saddled with almost unbearable debt loads.

          Most union members kept their biggest nest egg, which was their home, in the safe haven provided by Savings and Loan banks. They were safe havens of middle class wealth, because S&L’s were prohibited by law, from investing in anything less than the highest rated securities available. When they were deregulated they collapsed. Now the middle class has to hazard the market to store their wealth where nothing is certain. Thus poor market conditions can keep workers in debt for life.

          With free college and higher education available in other countries, we’re likely to experience a very severe “brain drain” quite soon.

  16. Malisha says:

    Ever notice how with all the carryings on the NRA has done, talking about how more guns are needed to prevent violence, not one single solitary NRA spokesperson has yet to say:

    “Trayvon Martin should have been armed that night; if he had been armed, he’d be alive today.”

  17. colin black says:

    Question 2

    It is documented that foams were already surging out of Trayvon’s mouth upon the arrival of the cops. What is the medical explanation of this occurrence
    Trayvon was shot through the chest an half his heart blown away..His lungs would collapse .The lungs are like sponges an if you squeeze a sponge fuid escapes like bubbles or foam..Trayvon would have beeen exhaleing at least his lungs would be exhaleing a pink foamy substance from jis mouth an possably his nose.Its caused by the remmnants of air escapeing his lungs.Much of it exited through the hole the deffendant blasted in his chest .But as its texturs spongelike some escape through his mouth.

    • Malisha says:

      Remember also that as soon as Fogen shot Trayvon, he (Fogen) “lunged” onto him and he weighed almost 200 pounds. That would expel the bloody foam out through all routes available even before the police arrived.

    • Jun says:

      My estimation is the weight of over 200 pounds sitting on Trayvon’s back, pinning him facedown, caused the foam and also the asphyxia that led to the brain edema, as severe brain edema is caused by a loss of oxygen and blood to the brain, and sitting on a shot kid, with over 200 pounds, contributed to that factor

  18. rayvenwolf says:

    Haven’t been on in awhile. Hope everyone is having a Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays.

  19. ladystclaire says:

    @Searchingmind, if this POS is not convicted for this *MURDER* there is no justice in this country at all. that was flat out first degree murder of a child that he committed. may he spend the rest of his days in prison.

  20. SearchingMind says:

    Typo: ‘ …. and the cause will be relevant in determining Zimmermans guilt/innocence’, should read: “and if the cause will be relevant in determining Zimmermans guilt/innocence”.

  21. SearchingMind says:

    “There is a lot the public doesn’t know” – Angela Corey.

    Guys, I would appreciate your reactions to the following not extremely important questions:

    Question 1

    The autopsy report notes, among others, the presences of “severe global edema” in Trayvon’s brain. I have no medical qualifications of any kind and as such do not know what may have caused it and the cause will be relevant in determining Zimmermans guilt/innocence.

    My research on this subject turned up the following:

    “- Edema in the brain may be topographically classified into focal or global.

    (i) Focal edema generates a pressure gradient with adjacent regions and may result in tissue shift and herniation. Examples of focal edema can be found around tumors, hematomas,
    and infarctions.

    (ii) Global edema diffusely affects the whole brain and, when critical, it may cause intracranial hypertension, compromise perfusion, and lead to generalized ischemia. Cardiopulmonary arrest, severe traumatic injury, and fulminant liver failure are common causes of global cerebral edema”.

    Question 1.1. Could the fatal gunshot that destroyed Trayvon’s heart and collapsed both of his lungs be the “severe traumatic injury” that caused the “severe global edema”. Question 1.2. if the answer is no, what then is the medical explanation for Trayvon’s massive brain injury? Question 1.3. how could anyone in Trayvon’s shape (i.e. in vegetative state given the massive brain injury and collapsed lungs) utter any randdom words/sentences, let alone articulate any words/sentences, still be “struggling” violently, “cursing” and needed to be “restrained” – as Zimmerman alleges?

    Question 2

    It is documented that foams were already surging out of Trayvon’s mouth upon the arrival of the cops. What is the medical explanation of this occurrence?

    Question 3

    It has also been documented that Trayvon had tears flowing from his eyes. Question 3.1. what is the medical explanation for this occurrence? Question 3.2. Do we know the direction the flow of the tears?

    • gbrbsb says:

      Q1. We need Dr to say what could have caused generalised oedema to the brain as unless he received a head trauma, or it was through lack of oxygen to the brain once the heart was ripped apart doesn´t seem logical.

      In respect of Trayvon struggling and cursing after being shot, curiously when Serino or Singleton asked what Trayvon was saying GZ replied “ow, ow, ow”, which sounds like the onomatopoeia for noises of pain.

    • Jun says:

      My guess is the combination of blood loss from the gun shot to the heart which also collapsed the lungs, and add to that the defendant pinned the kid facedown after shooting him, sitting over 200 pounds, added asphyxia to the damage, and the defendant was seen rubbing his hands all over the victim molesting the body of the kid, and the sheer terror and shock of the struggle the defendant instigated and escalated, all led to the severe global brain edema

      • ladystclaire says:

        I believe it was lack of oxygen getting to the brain is what caused the global swelling of Trayvon’s brain. and as mentioned, with Fat So sitting on this kids back, that didn’t help matters at all. in fact, I believe it really helped to cause his death, even though it would have been secondary to the gunshot wound. by Fogen misfit sitting on Trayvon’s back, this will also come in as a part of the reason for his death.

        he definitely has a depraved mind as well as one that makes him out to be the idiot that he is.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I think you’ll find that interior bleeding of the sort that Trayvon displayed due to a gunshot through the heart causes the global edema in the brain simply because of severe blood loss. There’s nothing mysterious about it.

    • Kelly Payne says:

      Maybe that foaming was caused by his lungs collapsing.

  22. Malisha says:

    @ GBlock and Lonnie, concerning this issue:

    Now, we look at the picture, taken of the back of his head at the scene, and we look at the picture taken of the same head at the station. The blood trails are exactly the same. What that means is, the blood rivulets and trails in the photo taken at the scene, had already stopped flowing. Out in the rain, in less that 4 minutes, you’re saying we should believe that GZ’s blood somehow avoided absorbing any rain water, and coagulated faster than blood normally does? By 2.5 minutes yet?

    My problem with this evidentiary conundrum is this: Between the picture “taken of the back of his head at the scene” and the “picture taken of the same head at the station,” there was a third picture taken.


    Here’s the timeline:

    1. At some point before Trayvon Martin was killed OR shortly thereafter, but before the police started making reports about Fogen’s condition, TWO SMALL LACERATIONS occurred to the back of Fogen’s head. I will put them as being “BPA” as in “Before Police Arrived” although, technically, we do not know if the event occurred before the first officer arrived. (First = Smith & Smith = of questionable honesty)

    2. At some point BPA a by-stander allegedly took a picture of the back of Fogen’s head showing that from those two lacerations, blood rivulets (the “Rivulets”) had formed dripping down his head and towards his ears and neck, bilaterally.

    3. At some point after the police arrived and started making reports about Fogen’s condition, a picture of his bloody nose was taken as he sat in the squad car, and presumably at that time the back of his head was still bloody, whether or not the blood was dried.

    4. One or more EMTs cleaned him up. One reported that the blood on the back of his head was dried or congealed (I no longer remember). Peroxide was used to clean up the Rivulets.

    5. Videos were taken by the CCT cameras in the garage of the station house and inside the station house at which time there were no Rivulets.

    6. Still pictures were taken at the station house, front of his face (blood had been cleaned up by the EMTs and there was no more blood either on nose, upper lip, lower lip, mustache or to the right of his mouth) and back of his head (RIVULETS are there again! They are thinner but follow the same PATH! It’s a MIRACLE!)


    FOLKS, whether the blood dries or doesn’t dry, congeals or doesn’t congeal, whether it dates back to before Fogen set out that evening or not, whether it’s from trees or branches or a sign or the flat side of a Kal-tec gun, how the bejeebers does it flow down in rivulets, get cleaned up and dried and then reproduce the same rivulets AFTER THE CLEANING, all for photo ops?


    The time-stamp on the “by-stander” photo taken allegedly at the scene outside shows that it occurred before the trip to the station house in the back of Tim Smith’s squad car.

    The time-stamp on the videos of Fogen getting out of the back of the squad car and being led into the station house through the garage shows that it followed that initial photo.

    The time-stamp of the official front-and-back-of-head photographs at the station house shows that this event came third, of the three.


    Isn’t this a kind of “Columbo would never believe this!” phenomenon?
    Would Monk believe this?
    Would any TV detective believe this?
    Does Serino believe this?
    Clearly O’Mara doesn’t believe this because he’s been exercising his right to remain silent about these photographs of the back of Fogen’s head.


    • whonoze says:

      “5. Videos were taken by the CCT cameras in the garage of the station house and inside the station house at which time there were no Rivulets.”

      No. You can’t see rivulets in the garage, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t there. The resolution of the camera is so poor, the lighting conditions so uneven, and the video compression so high that you can’t make out any details on the back of GZ’s head. There is one frame where the larger of the two cuts is visible, but it disappears in the next. The still frame grab that was used to supposedly show a distinct wound is actually a shadow on the top of GZ’s head. The telltale rivulet remnant seen in the later photo from the inside of the station is on the left his of GZ’s head. In the garage video, we only see the right side of his head until he is way too far away for any detail to appear even sporadically.

      TV detectives live in a magic world where any crappy photo or video can be “enhanced” into perfect clarity. This is not possible IRL. The only phenomenon you are seeing there is crappy video. No conspiracy HERE. Move on.

      BTW, do you have a source for your post earlier relating how GZ was part of Bill Lee’s ‘posse’, and worked to get him appointed when the old chief was dumped after the Ware/Collison scandal? This seems important, but I’ve only seen it referenced in your one post.

      • Malisha says:

        You go back to the March articles about how Fogen helped out with the Sherman Ware situation. There is a public meeting at the police station I believe, and Fogen is quoted as getting very exercised about the former Chief, and saying he should not get his pension, and how dare all the police act so wrong, and blah blah and not ONE mention of the Sherman Ware incident or anything else specific. He does complain that he went on a ride-along and the police he observed (not naming names) performed poorly. All the information I had on that came from those articles (probably a half dozen of them, OS and Miami Herald most likely) and websites discussing the “Fogen helps poor Blacks” meme.

        Then Fogen commenced writing to Chief Lee to commend various officers for this and for that. He told Singleton that he had written one to Chief Lee about her for going “above and beyond the call of duty” when she did something ordinary like handing out papers. He also reminded her that he worked private parties with her or something. He maintained a correspondence with Chief Lee and I remember noting that Tim Smith and that officer Raimondo were also included, probably by being complimented for their work or something.

        I’d have to reconstruct it carefully but I’m sure it’s in the articles. Nothing in direct police reports. But I didn’t FOIA the memos Fogen had written TO police department, only reports made to the police department ABOUT Fogen, and they claimed there were none except for one (which did not name him by name) saying a guy was walking around casing the neighborhood with a clip-board but did not have I.D. That was on September 19, 2011 I believe. Someone called him in.

      • Malisha says:

        But Whonoze, there was no blood left on the front of his face by the time the pictures at the station house were taken. The EMTs reported cleaning him up. How do we do away with the EMTs saying they cleaned him up, and then end up with the same picture before clean-up and after clean-up? Remember them saying 45% of his head was covered with blood? They cleaned him up with peroxide. Do you think they cleaned up his little mustache and not the back of his big round noggin?

        I’m just askin…

      • whonoze says:

        The EMTs cleaned the areas of the wounds, on the back of his head, leaving the blood trail under his left ear. I’m guessing they weren’t interested in ‘cleaning’ him cosmetically, only medically. Thank heavens, they left that one piece of evidence alone and GZ was too dumb not to wash it off himself during a bathroom break. He probably thought having some blood left on him ws good for his story. Perhaps Physics was one of those courses he bombed at his Juco, and the whole Isaac newton thing never occurred to him.

    • bettykath says:

      Malisha, After eating my s’mores I took a look at the photos. I agree with whonoze. The one at the arrival at the station house isn’t sharp enough or well lit enough for that kind of detail. It looks like the EMTs cleaned around the wounds but that’s all. The one at the scene is fresher blood than the one at SPD where the blood is drier and some of it may have chipped off, but your observation of the lines of the blood being the same is accurate. It was never all washed off.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Since the blood trails are the same in the second picture, taken much later, as they are in the first picture taken earlier. That means that the blood in the first photo was already FIXED. It was no longer flowing, thus the trails and/or rivulets did not extend further or change.

        By itself that means nothing. But, when one considers how long a time these blood flows had to fix themselves, by examination of the narrative about how they came to be. We must find that they had only 2.5 minutes to flow and become fixed. But then, they are not smeared or even interrupted in their courses. While the narrative states that they were opened by the head being repeatedly bashed on wet concrete for one minute of the 2.5 minutes available. Then they were rubbed in wet grass for more seconds of the 1.5 minutes of available time.

        So then the narrative would have us believe, that the blood flows were unaffected by the repeated bashing on wet concrete first. That could only mean that the wounds opened and bled during the last few bashes on wet concrete. How they avoided being smeared on the wet grass remains a mystery that begs explanation. But, even more mysterious is, how they became fixed in less than 1.5 minutes before the photo was taken.

        My explanation/theory is that, because there is also dried blood in less than an hour, in high humidity and rain on a rather chilly evening, the wounds and the blood flows happened before GZ left home, where he could allow the blood to flow uninterrupted, while holding his head rather still for several minutes in a warm dry place.

        I welcome alternative theories that take the needs of establishing these blood artifacts into account.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Actually nobody believes it, relax, sit back, it’s going to be one hell of a trial.

  23. Malisha says:

    Nicknames for witnesses:

    Witness “John” who saw MMA punches raining down and then didn’t see any kind of punches raining anywhere: “Fitness Witness” or “Delusion John”

    Witness Wibker who says Fogen “solved a lot of crimes”: “Fibber Wibker” or “Delusion Fusion”

    That witness who saw the guy on the bottom who had on a “red or white” shirt: “Anything-Goes” [but don’t forget BLUE]

    • cielo62 says:

      Fortuitously none if those “witnesses ” are credible. They will not be seen at trial to muddy the water. And even if they were asked to testify, there is indisputable DNA evidence and police records against their lies.

      Sent from my iPod

    • ladystclaire says:

      What crimes did this misfit solve, if anything he committed one of the biggest in his years of committing crimes and then his daddy calls in favors or make threats himself, and get the charges dismissed. his criminal activities were also expunged. IMO when a person is as violent as this one is, their criminal record ought to remain intact. there is no way that he should have been able to have a gun or a ccw permit.

      Imo, there were never any break ins taking place in that neighborhood. if anything, Mutt and Jeff were the ones going into homes where they knew that the owners were maybe away and, the two of them went in and took things. I mean, whose to say that they didn’t *STEAL* the very things that Taaffe claimed to have had stolen from him, and then take it and sale it for the money. after all they both couldn’t keep a job and, they had to eat. I don’t trust either one of these despicable subhuman beings.

      they are lying and the same goes for some of the witnesses in that complex. witness #11 comes to mind real easy and so does her mate. they both know more than what they are telling.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I would not be surprised to discover that GZ was fencing stolen property and selling it on ebay for a living. NW would make a really good cover for a fence. If they’re caught with stolen property, they can credibly claim they recovered it, for return to it’s owner. This is also another avenue through which GZ might have connected with people around TM’s age.

        The financial markets lockup in 2007 left GZ and FT in dire financial straits for a very long time. If they were fencing stolen property, just imagine how much more lucrative their operation would be, if GZ was hired-for-pay by the RATL, HOA.

        I’m pretty sure Angela Corey knows what she’s talking about when she says “we ain’t seen nothing yet” [NADQ], the clues are simply screaming “there’s more here than meets the eye”!

        “Age. Fac ut gaudeam”
        —Clintonius Eastwoodeyeay Circa 1971

        • Xena says:

          I would not be surprised to discover that GZ was fencing stolen property and selling it on ebay for a living. NW would make a really good cover for a fence.

          Thank you! I’ve been saying it!!! Did you read the following? I posted it in September.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, and that’s not the only speculation about GZ fencing stolen property that I had read. There were several people, over the course of the year, positing that GZ was most likely involved in some kind of criminal activity.

          • cielo62 says:

            If GZ was involved in fencing stolen stuff, eBay would be most probable avenue. I am sure eBay will cooperate since they never get involved in criminal/ controversial ventures.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes and they are another site that keeps records forever like google.

        • racerrodig says:

          My LE connections are telling me the same thing. Key….$130.00 + in e-bay shipping costs the week before he committed murder.

          Remember when he set up his “Watch” Program, he went door to door, clipboard in hand and asked everyone about their work and vacation schedules, were they armed, and what were the valuables they needed protected the most. Who came & went, what family visited, was anyone handicapped, were there any dogs, etc, etc, etc.

          In the real world that’s called “Casing the joint”

    • Jun says:

      Witness 6 has given numerous stories but perhaps the defendant got to the witness beforehand before giving the 2nd testimony because Fogenhats was walking around free after killing a kid, a kid who was screaming, and I believe some of the witnesses were scared of the defendant because the cops did not do their job at the beginning, and the defendant could have attacked them too

      1 – Stated on his 911 call it was wrestling and then the defendant killed the kid

      2 – made the MMA ground and pound statement and stated the defendant was screaming

      3 – Then said the victim was simply pinning the defendant down and he was not sure who was screaming

      4 – Then when FDLE spoke to him about the differences in his testimonies, he then stated his 4th story, which is he was not sure if it was pinning or hitting, and he was not sure who was screaming, and he was not sure if the defendant was wearing white or red

      5 – Then he told Bernie he heard no hitting noises or striking noises, so the witness seems to be sticking to the pinning story now

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        He certainly sounds like a witness who has been “reached”. How that “reaching” was accomplished is yet another matter. Either he was somehow involved, which would explain his initial support of GZ, rather than simply stating that he didn’t know. Or, someone came to him later and gave him a story they believed to be a better fit with what GZ was claiming.

        The conduct of the police out there on the scene, altering the witnesses observations, doesn’t help remove them as a likely source of these conflicts at all. Of course, there’s MO and/or FT who could have paid a visit as well.

        I’ll bet that these witnesses who engage odd behavior themselves, are getting or have gotten special attention by the FBI and the SP. But most likely the FBI, who would cast the widest net via digging deep into their background and questioning people who knew them, and examination of their phone records and travels etc.

        AC says there’s much more we are going to learn, should this case go to trial. I’ll believe that there is.

  24. colin black says:

    Thanks Dave will give it ago

    Well wada ya know easypeasy cheers Merry Christmas or whatever you follow or not have a great holiday…….Unless your working just have a great one an a happy newyear…

    thanks again Dave.

  25. CherokeeNative says:

    Proffessor – Just wanted to stop in and wish you and Crane a very merry Christmas and hope that you and yours are having a wonderful day of memories. Thank you for sharing your knowledge as we travel this journey in seeking justice in the name of Trayvon. Peace be with you.

  26. colin black says:

    acemayo…Frank Taffes house never got robbed by black males or anyone period…The deffendant claims he saw someone loitering by F Taffes place an the windows were open or some such nonsence.So our hero gets on the phone for back up stare or scares of the loitering suspect.When police arrive apperentlly all the doors are open as we;ll as the windows yet no break actually occoured .Ive often speculated that this was a sey up.An foggen was laying in wait for someone to enter F Taffes wide open home an arrest them at gunpoint as they exited with there bounty.Why elase leave your house un secure in the middle of this huge crime wave your warning everyone about..?

    • Diane says:

      If FT helps with NW and he know about all of the breakins, why, why would he leave his OWN house open. That should be part of community watch – lock up your house to slow down the crooks til GZ arrives.

      How many other people in the neighborhood made calls about the black thugs overrunning the neighborhood?

    • Malisha says:

      Colin B, I agree 100%. In fact, I think all the February 2012 shenanigans related to Fogen trying to get himself a notch on his gun (not intending to kill, but intending to apprehend and to have to use his gun to do so) so he could show those HOA people that he was absolutely essential, as a gun-toting NW Captain, to patrol their neighborhood. I think Taaffe left his place wide open hoping that would give Fogen his chance to catch a burglar. I’m not even sure there was anybody loitering near Taaffe’s place; Fogen could easily have described this dangerous lurker as being there when he simply saw him somewhere else and wanted to hype it up so Taaffe could report that “He thwarted a burglary.” After all, have we ever once heard Taaffe say, “It was foolish of me to leave my doors and windows open”? No we haven’t. Wouldn’t any rational person say that? Sure they would.

      I have formed, and stuck with, the theory that all the activity in February 2012 by Taaffe, Fogen and Osterman (at least) had to do with Fogen’s attempt to get rid of those pesky complaints that were being made about him to the police and to other residents. Some residents (who were later intimidated) were definitely beginning to complain about Fogen to the police and to each other and perhaps to management and the FOA. They were sick of Fogen tailing people, tattling about things that had not even happened, and harassing young African Americans. His conduct was attracting notice and there were people who felt uncomfortable about his “patrolling” with a loaded gun. The press reported on this back in March 2012 and then fell silent. At the time, Ibrahim Rashada, a resident of RTL who owned his own home, mentioned it and clearly described Fogen’s activities as racial profiling. The police were put on notice lots of times. Fogen was trying to prove that he had good reason to carry his loaded gun.

      Still, Corey’s choice of using second degree rather than first was a wise one and I immediately saw how clever she was to avoid the issue of pre-planning. She had enough to convict on a second-degree, and went with it. I personally believe that Fogen wanted to apprehend a “suspect” that night but ended up killing instead because his “suspect” wouldn’t play the right part in the little stage-play that Fogen had written and was directing and producing. We will never know how many people like Fogen have gotten away with killing people like Trayvon Martin in towns like Sanford with police forces like the SPD. I would guess that it’s an astonishingly high number, and that it reached critical mass on 2/26/2012.

  27. colin black says:

    Jun Merry Christmas…Beleive you I wish I could split my comments into parahgraphs its pisses people off it pisses me of..But I dont know how to acomplish it..Ive tried the obvious things like use the space bar over an over .But that doesnt have the desired affect an Ive tried useing ……………..dots to break up my wall of txt…If someone could explain in idiot proof language how to acomplish paragraphs.Would be most gratefull.

    • Dave says:

      Just hit the ENTER key twice.

      Merry Christmas to you, Colin, as well as the Professor, Crane, and all the gang!

    • Malisha says:

      Colin, your “ENTER KEY” may say “RETURN” 🙂

      Either way, hit it twice and you’ll get a paragraph.

      By the way, when I offered to type stuff for you it was not for blogging, but if you wanted to write something, a document that would be sent somewhere for a specific purpose, not just conversational as we do on the web. So in that regard, typing up a document that is significant for its structure as much as for its content, the offer is still open.

  28. Malisha says:

    Going over in my mind the progression of things that Fogen says happened that night, and the witnesses, and the tapes, in spite of all the attention paid to “fucking coons” versus “fucking punks,” the one thing that strikes me as absolutely damning beyond any assertion to the contrary is the conversation after the shooting with the bystander about the weaponry. “What kind of bullets?” “Hollow-point.” As if a hunter had brought down an elk or a deer. “What kind of bullets?” “Hollow-point.”

    • CherokeeNative says:

      Malisha – this is just one more aspect of the “depraved mind” that will be made evident come trial. This is one of the comments that night that makes me shudder – the hunt, the take down, and the bragging. Disgusting.

      • cielo62 says:

        Still, first it make you wonder WHY John asked such a stupid question? Putting myself in that place, I would be screaming for help, sitting next to Trayvon, feeling for a heartbeat, checking for a pulse, saying reassuring shit to Trayvon in case he could hear me; ANYTHING but asking about bullets! What the HELL is WRONG with John?

        Sent from my iPod

      • whonoze says:

        Cielo, Witness 13, who spoke to GZ about the bullets, is named Jonathan, or Jon. Witness 6, who described the ‘MMA-style beatdown” but then recanted, is named John. People get the two confused. It helps to spell their names right, and use witness numbers to avoid that. Eg. JonW13 and JohnW6.

        • cielo62 says:

          Thank you! I did indeed get them mixed up! Still, either Jon or John, are both strange folks. “MMA” style of something he didn’t see, and sitting by idly chit chatting about bullets with a dead or dying child at your feet. Both deserve a slap upside their respective heads.

          Sent from my iPod

      • Malisha says:

        “What is wrong with John” is the reason he claimed to see MMA punches in the first place.

      • Malisha says:

        Oops, Whonoze, did I just get the two mixed up, just as you pointed out? 😳 How embarrassing! Well if just ONE of them made up the “MMA punches” and just the OTHER of them engaged in the little “hunters’ chit-chat” with Fogen after “the kill,” I’m really not too terribly concerned about which one I meant when I asked, “What’s wrong with John?” Perhaps they’re closer, under the skin, than first meets the eye. “Hey Homie, what kinda ammunition did you use in this interesting project when you were defending yourself against MMA style punches?” would be a composite.

  29. Malisha says:

    This is a test. A friend just explained the block-quotes toggle to me.

    This material is intended to be in a block quote and therefore should be lighter print and indented.

    And this material is intended to go back out to the margins.

    Just testing the bold feature and italics while I’m at it

    ❓ Let’s see what happens.

  30. Xena says:


    Today is Christmas, the day of glad tidings and good news to men. I have some other good news to share.

    The petition that Lonnie Starr wrote and posted on “We The People” is now closed, with 1,684 signatures.

    As most here probably know, Lonnie posted the petition in response to one posted by David Piercy asking for investigation into GZ’s “malicious prosecution.” They had a one week head start on Lonnie’s petition, and Junior also promoted it on Fox News. That petition closed on Dec. 17th with 1,156 signatures.

    Without any major television network providing time to promote Lonnie’s petition, we (and I mean WE as in supporters of justice for Trayvon who hit Twitter and Facebook), ended with a 528 signature gain over GZ’s petition.

    The other good news is that in response to a request to promote the petition by a very reputable television and radio source, I was informed that there was no need for the petition because the DOJ is in fact investigating whether GZ violated Trayvon Martin’s civil rights.

    Without planning it for the day that the petition would close, this is like giving a Christmas present to Trayvon Martin. Our work shall not be in vain.

    • Malisha says:

      Xena, Lonnie, thank you very much for all this work. If you hadn’t set aside time and money and worked hard to do this, we would not have this extra “wreath” to hang up today to decorate the movement to make Trayvon Martin’s death stand for something big in our society. In fact, I believe we’re making it stand for the principle that targeting and killing peaceable and vulnerable individuals in our society is no longer “free game.” It comes with a terrible price.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      At the least it shows that they have no “ground swell of support”, why else would a petition that was only advertised on the blogs, close with more votes than one that was promoted on the national media?

      It’s much more likely that their numbers include the handful of rabid proZ bloggers who were motivated to spoof id’s and sign their petition a number of times.

      That GZ’s source of money dried up after he let it be known that he wasn’t lily white, but part Hispanic, says that his supporters believed he was white, as did almost everyone else, until he issued that disclaimer. The SPD says they believed he was white and his various applications indicate he called himself white and not Hispanic. So the money he received was most likely racist money, because the gun issues are still there, but no funds are coming from gun supporters.

      Thus GZ charade of widespread support for himself is revealed as a fraud. That has to be some comfort to all who grieve for Trayvon Benjamin Martin and his family.



  31. ladystclaire says:

    Merry Christmas to you all and, may GOD continue to bestow his blessings on each and every one of you in the coming New Year. also, lets continue on our path to get Justice for our young ones who are gone too soon. Trayvon Martin, Jordan Davis and the victims in Aurora, Colorado. it’s a fact that gun violence in this country must end. those who have taken the lives of these people must be made an example in this country’s quest to stop these senseless murders of innocent people.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Merry Christmas and thank you to all fellow contributors who are working to erode the false alibi of a murderer. Thank you over and over to Professor and Crane-Station. Many hopes and wishes for justice for the memory of this poor child and children like him.

      May we help stop the murder.
      Wishing you all health and goodness in the New Year.

      • cielo62 says:

        Many have expressed my sentiments so beautifully that I will just add my voice of gratitude and well wishes to all! Even bit players like me are learning many things. It has been an honor and a privilege to be in a top class! Thank you Professor Leatherman and Crane Station for providing such a wonderful place to be. Blessings for today, the New Year and always!

        Sent from my iPod

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      The message SYG sends is not a clear one and appears to circumvent the traditional homicide standards. As the killings continue they will escalate and the nature of them will change.
      Eventually, and quite soon, we will become a nation of shut ins.
      All that commercial real estate, held by shopping centers and malls, industrial parks and office complexes will be too dangerous
      to enter and thus will go to waste. Much of the work that’s done today in offices can be done at home via the internet. So, that’s the way we will go up to a point.

      The internet can’t handle the need for people to be present in labs and workshops. While virtual reality might be able to handle some of that, it can’t do the best job, so get ready for more passes, badges and biometric id. If these laws aren’t recinded, both dramatically and soon, we’re going to be living in a situation that’s worse than what the U.S.S.R. had. One things for sure, we won’t have a civil society any longer.

      Most “gun nuts” have only an anecdotal understanding of SYG in the first place, most LEO outfits have people on board, who will use SYG to pick and choose who gets tried or not and/or what evidence get collected and when. This is going to lead to a hodge podge of dangerous results and a welter of even more gross anecdotes to feed the frenzy. Tending the entire nation toward chaos. Something must be done now, or soon you won’t even be able to go to the supermarket without a bulletproof vest. Either that or they’ll have to close down and/or move online.

      A society cannot tolerate these changes that will be made if these laws are not shut down quickly and dramatically.

      • Malisha says:

        This is a very important point.
        First, I was just afraid for young African American males I knew, and cautioned them. Then I realized that a sense of danger was pervading our whole culture. Russians told me about this back in 1978 — the international perception of the American armed camp was already formed back then! Now it’s just unbelievable. Way beyond any rational explanation. Our hostility is increasing at an exponential rate. All this is good for the NRA which sprang up, coincidentally (“There is no such thing as a coincidence” — Army CID), the year the KKK was criminalized.

      • Jun says:

        This could be true because going out is really dangerous now

        Look at the person who shot up that mall in Oregon

        Look at the movie theatre in Colorado

        Then the Trayvon Case

        An elementary school was shot up

        a hospital was shot up

        There needs to be some gun control because the guns are ending up in the hands of dangerous maniacs and it is way too easy for any Tom Dick Harry to just grab a piece

        It is a combination of studying these psychopaths so that we can see the signs early enough to prevent them from getting their hands on a gun

        People like that could still use knives but at least they dont have a gun while the good and normal people have a gun to take out the guy with the knife who is psycho

  32. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    Merry Christmas!

  33. acemayo says:

    How far is it from the mail boxes where TM was to where GZ call
    It was dark and raindy, was the street light so bright that GZ can
    made out TM face, from an long distance, there are no houses
    close to the mail boxes
    So what house he was looking at.

    So far whenever a black male is shot
    Who ever shot a black male said his hand is in his wraist band
    He looks likes he has something in his hand
    He don’t look right

    For the Love of God
    Tell how an Black Male suppose to look like
    So that we need not fear a black male

    What street can a black male walk
    without being in the wrong area
    to someone

    I wish someone will go when its dark
    to the place where TM was at
    before the 911 call

    have a friend be where TM was
    Than you go to the area where GZ was

    you and your friend be talking
    on yours cell phones

    Have your friend(TM at the mail box) close one of his eyes
    Now ask you(GZ truck was) can he made out his face

    • Xena says:

      @acemayo. There are people who have gone over the clubhouse videos, and if I’m not mistaken, the majority agree that GZ never parked at the clubhouse. Some have tracked his headlights making U-turns in front of the clubhouse, but not parking where he said he parked in the re-enactment.

      GZ’s NEN call gives us a glimpse into his driving. The dispatcher first go the address from GZ where he saw Trayvon; i.e., the clubhouse. Subsequently, without being asked, GZ begins giving directions, and he sounds a bit frustrated. That could be, because he was moving and not parked. When the dispatcher asked for the address where GZ was parked, he said he didn’t know because it is a cut-through.

      In the following video, go to about 11:00 into it and watch thereafter. Dave shows another “cut-through.”

      • Lynn says:

        Around 2:45 Frank is insisting that the closest route from his place to Brandi Green’s house is to turn right down RTC towards Fogen’s house. Typing the two addresses into google maps gives you the two quickest options…1)left around RTC or 2)left around RTC to TTL and back to RTC.

        • Xena says:

          Taaffe assumes absolutely too much about what others should think and do.
          The second time I watched that video, I concluded that Taaffe must have gotten his butt kicked often because — it is gone. He doesn’t have one.

      • Lynn says:

        Okay, so now Frank says Trayvon was 19??? I guess it’s just like his tv story…it gets bigger and Trayvon gets older with each telling.

        • Xena says:

          @Lynn. Did you catch the part where he said “If you’re a scared Black male …” Talk about profiling!!! I responded out loud at the computer screen, “What if you’re a scared White male? How about a scared Zebra striped male? Pick a color. Any color. Scared is scared.”

      • Lynn says:

        @6:20 Frank says the clubhouse was where Fogen was parked and Trayvon “first circles his car”. So was it here or on TTL where Trayvon did the circle stare down that Fogen dreamed up?

        • Xena says:

          Staying with GZ’s NEN call, he said, “And he’s coming towards me now.” That simply means that GZ had driven ahead of Trayvon. At no time did GZ tell dispatch that Trayvon was walking around his car nor circling his car. And, you’re right Lynn. Where Taaffe said Trayvon circled, and GZ says he circled, are two different places.

      • Xena says:

        Did anyone else catch the sight of those 2 trees in the cut-through between the buildings to the “T”?

      • Lynn says:

        I like how when Dave starts questioning Frank it is suddenly…Gotta go! The “bitch” called Sandford. But you live here says Dave. lol
        Frank couldn’t come up with explanations on how it took 36-40 seconds for them to walk to the T and only 10-12 for Fogen. He couldn’t explain how it was 40 or so feet in from the T that the body was.
        He then starts spewing that CTH crap about Trayvon buying blunts and hiding them in Brandi’s house before returning in wait for Fogen at the T’s invisible bushes. If Fogen said he’s running and then bolts out the truck, leisurely “walking” to the T in 12 seconds flat, then continuing on to “find an address” and claims to get attacked on his stroll back to the T…just when did TM have the time to get home and back like the CTH/Frank claims???

        Keep them talking Dave. They’ll keep proving the lies.

        • Xena says:

          …just when did TM have the time to get home and back like the CTH/Frank claims???

          Lynn, Taaffe and the CTH are what I call bigotvoyants. Trayvon would have to be clairvoyant to do what they allege. He would have pre-knowledge that GZ would get out of his truck and follow him on foot. He would know the EXACT timing it would take GZ, where he would walk, and when and where he would return.

          Their scheme ultimately reduces GZ to a puppet whose mind can be read so that Trayvon would know everything GZ was thinking. It also makes GZ the aggressor because it places GZ in a realm of being able to avoid confrontation, if only his mind was unable to be read.

          • Diane says:

            If TM did go home, a) why didn’t he leave the tea and candy, b) why didn’t he get at least a butter knife, and c) won’t the brother/kid waiting for him have knowledge that TM came and left a second time, and d) wouldn’t Tracy Martin be aware that something was wrong and report it to police sooner. Going home and returning is totally ridiculous!

          • Xena says:

            If TM did go home, a) why didn’t he leave the tea and candy, b) why didn’t he get at least a butter knife, and …

            Diane, that is why I call them bigotvoyants. If Trayvon went home, he would have to know in advance that GZ would still be out there looking for him, where he would be, and the exact timing that GZ would reach the T to be confronted. Oh — and let’s not forget that Trayvon would also need to have superhuman ability to disappear at will.

            But remember GZ’s story — Trayvon asked, “You got a problem?” What “thug” asks a question and waits on an answer before opening up a can of whip-ass?

            So, for the bigotvoyants’ theory to work, along with GZ’s story, Trayvon should have said, “Hey man. I’m here to beat your ass so stand still now while I punch you in the nose.”

          • Diane says:

            Xna, I teach high school and deal with teenagers 24/7, Sunday through Saturday on the Internet. That is not the language of teenagers. How could he mentor Black kids and think this makes sense. (almost spelled “since.” It’s bedtime) Merry Christmas Xena!

          • Xena says:

            LOL@Diane. Yeah, it’s about time I turned in too. (Wanted to get something out of the oven first so there’s not much cooking to be done when I do get up.) You’re right. GZ doesn’t know how to communicate with kids, teens, or even adults. Just look at how he talked to ShelLIE when he was in jail.

      • acemayo says:

        Talk about profiling
        Since frank house got rob by a black male
        It stand to reason that any black male by his house
        Or in the neighbor is a thief or up to no good

        Did GZ when he call the police in the past it was about
        a black male up to no good
        From frank house to the mailbox area I would go to
        get out of the run.

        If it was raining off and on as a black male I wouldn’t
        stand under someone porch someone would think
        I am up to no good

        When Frank was ask where are the bushes TM
        was hiding he could not show them

      • sdunn5 says:

        Frank makes up some excuse about “some bitch” and needs to make a hasty retreat as Dave asks him to show the bushes Trayvon allegedly popped out of….iffy part of the story yeah Frank …there are none.

      • Malisha says:

        Taaffe’s Tour doesn’t prove anything, but it does give him a chance to pretend to be important. Just imagine that everything he said was true, for argument’s sake. Then:

        1. Trayvon went to the 7-11 to buy a blunt to smoke weed.

        2. Trayvon arranged for other guys to buy a blunt for him because he tried at first but was refused when the clerk told him he was too young to purchase tobacco.

        3. Trayvon then saw Fogen, “first circled his car,” and took a knowingly wrong way back to his father’s house.

        4. Trayvon then ran to his father’s house because he was a “young scared black male” and he dropped off the weed but held onto his skittles and iced tea, and came back out of his father’s house again, to confront “the dude,” who he knew had gotten out of his car and gone wandering through the RTL neighborhood looking for a street sign (yeah, that’s it!).

        5. Trayvon then, having proven himself a devious person (doesn’t take the proper route home; purchases and hides weed), confronts and tries to kill “the dude” and gets killed.

        WOW, from this you have to conclude:

        * 17-year-old Black males sure are stupid; and

        * There is still no reason for Fogen to either follow Trayvon Martin or to find an address when he should be getting his hungry a$$ to the store to buy groceries for his decent American family.

        So what does the Taaffe Tour prove?

        Nothing. Still Murder-2. Just Murder-2 of a kid who took the wrong route home and was so dumb he dropped off the weed but kept the skittles.

        But someone who calls in to complain about Frank Taaffe in their backyard is a “bitch” although someone who calls the police because he sees Trayvon in someone’s backyard was just doing his civic duty.

        Bottom Line: Taaffe has nothing to say except, “We’re allowed to kill young scared Black males because somebody stole a TV” and “I believe everything Fogen and I figured out to say to the cops and I can repeat most of it whenever asked to do so.”

      • Jun says:

        Frank’s story makes Trayvon out to be Black Dynamite

        like hot damn

        the kid does not get tired?

        He ran around as much as Frank claimed, but never got tired, and the former bouncer (Fogenhats) who was totally refreshed and energized, who has lots of experience dealing out violence to others, was powerless, when he expends absolutely no physical energy at all by driving and walking to get an address (Fogenhats)?

        I notice they always make Trayvon out to be some superhuman athletic kid, who’s height gets taller and taller with each telling (much like the story)

        So not only in their alleged story does

        Trayvon smoke weed and buy weed (which btw, makes people tired, sleepy, happy, and hungry, not athletic)

        But Trayvon ran over a few miles altogether

        Then right after attacked a former bouncer who weighed over 200 pounds (that is a lot of weight and I would like to see someone easily bench that without getting tired)

        Commenced an MMA beating and tackle of the defendant

        And then talked after getting shot in the heart

        and is also able to appear and disappear at will

        but yet the defendant was able to shoot him

        and the victim never got any blood or dna at all on his hands or sleeves, after repeatedly pummeling the defendant with his hands


        the defendant’s voice changes to a teenager’s voice screaming for help at only one moment in time

        LMAO how do they sell that nonsense?

        • Xena says:

          LMAO how do they sell that nonsense?

          Well, when they started selling that nonsense is when people stopped buying. GZ received the most in donations just after his arrest. Shortly thereafter, his re-enactment video was released, providing his numerous inconsistencies with his NEN call, and physical demonstrations that are inconsistent with physical evidence. The donations slowed down.

          Even current-day Zidiots only “sell that nonsense,” not because they think GZ is innocent (if they did, there would be no need to lie and attack others), but because they are angry with the idea that Blacks believe they are equal and how dare non-Blacks agree with them (They don’t think in the realm of evidence — just race.)

          • cielo62 says:

            Xena- they also don’t deal in the realm of justice. Hence there are people like us to make it happen.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            Xena- they also don’t deal in the realm of justice. Hence there are people like us to make it happen.

            True. When people believe they are superior to others, whatever it is they believe makes them superior, becomes their form of justice. For instance, bullies believe that their ability to make others fearful is justice and Zidiots demonstrate bully personalities. Since they are against equality for all, they resist by turning everything around to use against others. Thus, they now hawk about reverse racism and have pimped Junior out to repeat the mantra, not realizing how ignorant he sounds.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          You left out the important collapsed lungs. This is very important because, with a punctured lung that allows the air to escape through the wound, means that Trayvon is no longer able to compress the air in his lungs and/or force it through his vocal chords, with enough force to create any sounds. Less, is he able to operate his vocal chords to allow the very low, residual air pressure, make any sounds at all. He can’t even gasp for air, any operation of his diaphragm is impeded by heart blood filling the chest cavity, reducing it’s effective ranges.

          Not to mention that the shock of a heart lung injury has to be so immediately and powerfully traumatizing it’s doubtful he’d even remain conscious at all. Less, be able to act in a normal manner at all.

          Try this on for size: Ever have a liquid go “down the wrong pipe?”, have you been able to speak almost immediately? Or did it take a few moments before you regained this ability? If it took a few moments before you could either speak or cough, then realize that
          Trayvon also had, not only blood flowing into this lungs, causing the same distress as if he’d inhaled liquid, he also had heart blood flowing into his chest cavity, severe pain and choking, while his ability to move air in and out was being eliminated by his filling chest cavity. His first reflex, if he had any, would have been to either cough or draw breath, not to say any words. Just as a normal person would after inhaling a liquid.

  34. Malisha says:

    There is absolutely no NEED for a self-defense law. It is already legal in every state in the union to defend yourself. If you are charged with murder, you show self-defense and it’s the same as if you ask for a SYG hearing and show self-defense; this SYG stuff arose from a certain KIND of self-defense that referred to you defending yourself in your own turf, such as your car, your house, etc. It’s not new and different; it’s new and wrong.

    It puts in cops’ discretion a decision that should not be cops’ to make. If someone has killed and the cops believe it is self-defense, there should be a form they fill out and have the person sign, indicating that they believe the evidence shows it to be self-defense. That should go before a judge just as if a charge based on a probable cause affidavit would go before a judge. If there is a decision that it was self-defense, at least it has not been a little “fix” in the cop shop.

    Think of it: when a cop kills someone, his buddies don’t just get together and say, “it was self-defense” and let it go. It goes up to a department specially designed to handle that. It is not a decision made by other cops of the same level. And they EXPECT that it may someday happen.

    This “shortcut” is just a way for police departments to hide corruption and give “kill for free” cards to their buddies. And since it affects civil suits too, it is unconstitutional as all get-out. AND deprives the state of grand jury investigations; AND deprives the state of appellate rights.

    Totally unconstitutional and part of the “new US order” of going to corporate feudalism. Corporations get armed and shoot us down if we protest anything. No unions, no protests, no back-talk, we’re on our way to unspoken slavery and we’re going there Black folks first.

    • Jun says:

      Proper investigation for all killings

    • Dennis says:

      I agree. From everything I have read about Stand Your Ground, it was intended for homeowners who shoot and kill intruders. It is mainly to prevent civil penalties. I remember a long time ago when some people would shoot and kill an intruder & not be charged, but were sued and lost the case in civil court because the person was unarmed. Self-defense should cover you in terms of criminal charges, so it leads me to believe that SYG is mainly for civil immunity. I agree with SYG in terms of civil liability since anyone that legitimately kills someone in self-defense should not be sued for millions of dollars for a wrongful death.

      Florida’s SYG law specifically says that you must attempt to flee and show that you no longer wish to use force if you are the aggressor. The law still needs to be changed so that an aggressor can’t invoke SYG under any circumstances, especially if they pursue & kill a fleeing suspect. A man in Florida received immunity after chasing down and stabbing a car thief to death. The judge sided with him claiming he had a right to make a citizens arrest and also retrieve his stolen property. Nobody should be allowed to chase down a criminal and murder them because they would not submit to force. This law was not designed to encourage or protect individuals who engage in vigilante behavior.

      • Eric says:

        Dennis, I know the florida case you’re talking about. Actually the thief was stealing car radios. The thief turned and swung the bag of radios at his pursuer. Then he was stabbed. The incident was caught on cctv. The tv show the first 48 profiled this story.

      • bettykath says:

        Considering that ALEC is behind the SYG laws, I’d say that the purpose to provide corporate protection from lawsuits when their security people kill. Individuals trying to use SYG are less likely to prevail.

  35. Kelly Payne says:

    I hope i’m not out of line maybe because i get so emotional about this case,but i think Tracy martin need to snap at back the sanford police for calling him a liar. the very people who were going to let the scum wad who killed his son get away with it have the nerve to call him a liar. The very police department who was stupid enough to buy Zimmerman ridiculous tales. He has got to come out strong tell them what he thinks.Now is not the time to be a nice guy.I know it’s not his way,but some times you need to speak up.

  36. Kelly Payne says:

    I hope i’m not out of line maybe because i get so emotional about this case,=.,But i think Tracy martin need to snap at back the sanford police for calling him a liar. the very people who were going to let the scum wad who killed his son get away with it have the nerve to call him a liar. The very police department who was stupid enough to buy Zimmerman ridiculous tales. He has got to come out strong tell them what he thinks.Now is not the time to be a nice guy.I know it’s not his way,but some times you need to speak up.

    • Xena says:

      Tracy Martin is listed as a witness for the state. He will have opportunity to tell the truth under oath and be cross-examined. Actually, what I’ve wanted him to say is, “I never before heard my son scream like that, but I know it’s his voice.” That then gives the state opportunity when cross-examining Papa Zim to ask, “Under what circumstances did you hear the defendant scream like that?”

      It had better been a life or death situation, because that is what GZ claims in one story, while claiming in another story that he yelled for help so the cops could located him. Logically, that means after he shot Trayvon, he didn’t want the cops to locate him quickly — needed time to make a phone call, pose for pictures, talk to neighbors, rub his head — stuff like that.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Yea, and when he was rubbing his over sized empty head, he was rubbing it with some of Trayvon’s blood! this thing will say and do anything to get out of going where he most definitely belongs. also, he was wanting his house arrest lifted and his GPS bracelet removed because, he was going to make a run for it. Mark O’money and team were willing to help him do just that. this attorney needs to be disbarred and the same goes for West. they are officers of the justice system and yet they were more than willing to help a murderer flee from justice. smdh

  37. Dennis says:

    There is a new bill being introduced in Florida:

    * There would be no stand-your-ground defense for someone who provokes or pursues an assailant.

    * Police would have more discretion to decide whether the shooter can be arrested.

    No more chasing down criminals and stabbing them to retrieve your property. It is ridiculous that this was left out of the Stand Your Ground from the beginning. If you provoke the violence against yourself or put yourself in harms way, you do not deserve the protection.

    I am not a Florida resident, but I urge everyone who is to get the word out to make sure these politicians pass this much needed bill.

    • Xena says:

      Police would have more discretion to decide whether the shooter can be arrested.

      IMO, unless it’s to protect home or business, police should NOT have discretion, and an investigation should always be required. What SYG does is give the police powers of the judiciary, and that is in violation of this nation’s and states’ separation of powers.

      If states are going to have SYG, then they should also have a separate SYG task force to investigate. What makes GZ’s case a violation of this separation of powers, is that the SPD did not have lab, forensics, neither all witness statements, before Bill Lee and Wolfinger said there was no evidence to arrest to GZ. They acted as judge and jury.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I agree. SYG needs much more than police / prosecutorial discretion. Any time someone dies in an encounter, there should be some sort of grand jury / court hearing with some very deep digging. It’s clear that too many people are taking SYG as some sort of killing privilege.

      • bettykath says:

        ALL shootings should be charged with proper judicial procedures to determine culpability (and that includes cop shootings, imo). Cops should NOT, in any circumstance have the right to give a pass.

    • Jun says:

      It is difficult to plan out a good Self Defense statute but I def want them to give extra punishment for abusing the statute

      In the Trayvon Case, it is already bad enough he was terrorized and then murdered while he was screaming for help


      to not be allowed to have his soul rest in peace and deal with the extracurricular slander and lies from the defendant, is heartbreaking and I believe it makes his crime more aggravated

      • ladystclaire says:

        You are right Jun and, I for one am sick of the way this kid has been treated in death by *RACIST WHITES* in this country. once again I will say, there has never been another child disrespected in such a manner. even the Columbine massacre. the same can also be said of the others who went into schools and universities and shot and killed innocent kids. Trayvon never harmed anyone and yet he is being belittled and disrespected in death, only because of the color that GOD made him. these people are definitely morally bankrupt in every sense of the word.

  38. sdunn5 says:

    I wanted to wish the Professor and Crane-Station a wonderful Christmas. And to all the posters here, thank you for your conviction, humor, and thoughtful posts. May Sabrina Fulton & Tracy Martin find peace in the New Year. Nothing can replace your beautiful son, but may your hearts be full knowing there are so many of us that feel Trayvon is our child as well. May blessing surround your family at this special time of year. And may justice prevail at trial.

  39. grahase says:

    Go To The Conservative TinFoil Hats for a Special Message from Robert Zimmerman Sr.

  40. colin black says:

    Jun says:

    December 24, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    I dont believe he has a case with NBC at all

    It was a couple editors for a certain show who edited the tape to air it

    and the fact remains that his statements were not altered from their meaning or fullness

    The defendant who is the murderer of Trayvon, did specifically state:

    1) He was suspicious
    2) Because he was walking around looking about
    3) He was looking or staring at him
    4) He looked black
    5) He was a kid, late teens
    6) He accused him of conducting break ins
    7) He allegedly looked at all the houses (I do not know how Trayvon accomplished this feat in a matter of 20 seconds)
    8) He’s an asshole who always gets away
    9) He’s a fucking coon
    10) Shit, he is running
    11) He ran
    12) He’s running down the street
    13) Yes he was following him

    Then later there are mass 911 calls, including one that captured a kid screaming for his life, which turned out to be the same kid that the Fogenhats was stalking earlier


    So, a black kid, is not allowed to look at Zimmernuts, he is not allowed to walk down the street, because he is a black teenager, otherwise he is an asshole who always gets away and a fucking coon?

    & This was all stated before he continued stalking and terrorizing this kid, before murdering him
    ………@Jun its safe to say the defendant was not acting in a reasonable manner the evening thease tragic avoidable events unravelled.He could have defused the situation in a safe manner .Simply roll his window down stop by Trayvon.Explain your nw ask if he needs assistance .I mentor a couple kids your age ..Its raining you want a ride home?…O h talkin to your sweetheart I get it .Sorry for bothering you but we had a few break ins an that..Night.End of story but no he took every opertunity to up the ante..First of he never spotted him at cornfed saltwaterdafttafffes house thats a lie..First contact at mailboxes.Quite possable a tip off..Thats why when Serrino or Sinngleton asked what arroused his susspisioun.He waffled about looking about in the rain an not looking like a hard core athlete..HARDCORE was leakage because he was thinking hardcoregang member when he first laid eyes on TRAYVON,,Interestingly an another give away through leakage..He also said one of the other things aroused his crook radar..Was he didnt look like the type that lived there an wouldnt be out collecting mail.Or words to those effect.So the Mailbox Pavillion thingy was in his mind because thats where he first saw or heard Trayvon was located..Think about it if he had used the cut through at Taffes an was walking by gz an his car .If he wanted to get out the rain till it died down chillax an talk to Dee Dee an plus be out of sight of any creepy men .You wouldnt head to the mailbox pavillion it offers mimmimall shelter………………….No you would take the path between the club house an pool .Wich removes you from sight of anyone in a vechicle .Has a huge big awwning stroke patio covering roof offering complete protection from the rain.Plus a couple of benches to sit down an realy chill an talk to double D in dry comfort…………………………………………………………He didnt use this as any off us would because he never entered via F Taffes cut through .Of all the places it has to be right by his cohorts .An he even says dureing the re enactment…We have had break in recently I called for this adress An also this adress he points to f taffes neighbours has been broken into ya da ya da da .Yep we are talking about the night you murdered an innnnocent not crimes of the past.An from the mailboxes as Trayvon was telling DD a creeps folllowing him in his car.The accused was slowly creeping along about 3 miles as slow as poss intimidateing his prey with full highbeams .Thats when Trayvon explains he is gonna wait to run untill he reach a point where he can run from the back..DD sayin no run now run now.But she didnt know what we know Trayvon was waiting to reach the path leading up to the T an dogwalk take a shrp left an bolt straight to his Pops backdoor an safety.Wich is exactly what he done gz is cerbcrawling slightly behind his prey suddenly as they reach the bend in street Trayvon bolts full stride into the darkness totally catching accussed of gaurd an is at the T an rounded running towards Brandi Greens.Just as gz is leaveing his truck an heading up the path still talking to disspatch…Many things puzzle me re timelines an precice movements .Theres a few facts Im certain of like gz murdered Trayvon ..Another is he never spotted him at F Taffes house,,Another is that he first encounter began at mai;l boxes .Another an this is the one Im most sure off the suspect accused defendant call him what you wish.Will be found guilty.

    • Jun says:

      Hey Colin

      I think I get what you saying but one comment is to paragraph what you are writing, as it is easier to read off a phone or computer screen

      I am not 100% sure of the path the defendant took, but he def cut off the kid somewhere south of the back pathway, and then herded the kid north, and then confronted and attacked and terrorized the kid without provocation

      It is a situation where the only party who had self defense rights was the victim Trayvon because he even attempted to get away from the aggressive situation from the defendant, but the defendant, insisted on escalating and instigating the situation

      and even when the defendant caught up to the victim, all he did was try to talk to the defendant, and then the defendant lunged at him aggressively out the blue, hence the victim yelling “Get Off” which can be heard repeated onto the 911 scream tape

      and when the defendant had full control of the situation, and the kid was too scared to fight and had no knowledge of how to fight, he still chose to murder the kid while the kid screamed for help

      It is definitely second degree murder

      He should of just let the situation go because Trayvon was not a threat to anyone nor did he deserve his rights infringed up until he was murdered, and then had to endure being molested by the defendant’s hands

      The simple fact is if not for the defendant, there would be no struggle or dangerous situation, nor confrontation or encounter, and a kid would still be alive

      The defendant definitely deserves prison IMO

      I’d say life with no parole as it is really aggravated that he had a physical, mental and experienced combat advantage and he still chose to terrorize a kid with it, and add to that a gun, and the after killing acts of molesting the kid’s body with his hands, and his continuous slander and lies

  41. Malisha says:

    Oh I’m so evil. 👿 I thought of a Christmas decoration I wanted to make but having only thought of it this evening, I guess it’s a no-go. I wanted to go to the craft store and buy about a dozen of those round bulbs that are sort of imitation wood (they’re made from papier mache) and kind of speckle some black hair on them like a crew cut and then dribble the blood on them just like the rivulets we see in the “poor me” photographs. Slap two ears (from dried apple slices) on each and I would have “Forgaments” for a big CHREE! (Or maybe just a wreath?) (Could I get sued for this?)

    Merry Christmas, all. Chanukah is “Rededication” so let’s all come back on strong after the holidays! Love ya —

    • looneydoone says:

      I think his “bloody face” photo silkscreened on soccer balls might be a big seller 😉

      • Malisha says:

        LD, that is the best idea I have heard yet! Especially because you can’t touch them with your hands (UGH who would want to?)! Quick, file a design patent for it, you’ll be rich!

  42. grahase says:

    No matter our creed, no borders matter, there is no race or colour here.

    The bond we share is justice and caring – only because it is the right thing to do.

    Whatever your faith may be or not be, it is just a really good thing for everyone to take time out and celebrate peace, love, and prosperity for all, to recognize that our lives have a beautiful purpose – to take care of each other and to make this world a better place.

    I am grateful to have found you all. Happy holidays, friends.

  43. Jun says:

    We are trying to take away a murderer’s fame. I believe it is only important to know his name if he is running around, but the state of Florida has him on a leash. If we are to mention his name, at least we should remind everyone that he is the killer of a kid.

  44. Malisha says:

    HA HA Have to share this one. I sent my son a web-page advertising hoodies with headphones built into them. He e-mailed back to me, “Sounds like a bad idea. You wouldn’t be able to hear Zimmerman shouting at you while the music was on.”

  45. Malisha says:

    Back at you, Colin Black. Have a merry wassail on Boxer’s Day too. 🙂

  46. colin black says:

    ps missed out THEASE brilliant justice seeekers from my merry christmas shout….. mainstreamfair JBmission Marinade Dave LMPappa Nefertari05 DennisWhonose blackbutterfly patricia bigboi an so many many others appoligies to any ive missed but not forgotten just like Trayvon MISSED BUT NEVER FORGOTTEN.

  47. Malisha says:

    I don’t think Trayvon’s motive for going to the 7-11 is very deep, and I don’t think he’s particularly likely to know the three other young persons who were with Burgess when he was arrested. Remember, when Trayvon was in RTL, he was not there to socialize and meet new folks; he was there to visit his father and at this particular visit, to stay there while he was suspended from school. His mom did not want him in his own neighborhood while being off school, and that’s wise. While he was up there in RTL, however, he was on the phone with DeeDee constantly. I think his mom might have wanted him to chill a little bit with the DeeDee thing (and that may be why DeeDee did not attend the funeral, being embarrassed, in effect, before his parents). Maybe Mom and Dad both thought a “cooling off period” would be best for Trayvon and he didn’t really feel particularly “cooled off” and I think he was on the phone with DeeDee and practically oblivious to other things going on such as the time of the game, other kids in RTL, or any of that. After all, we didn’t get a bunch of interviews with RTL teen-agers after the shooting, did we?

    I think he went to the store to get his end-of-the-day conversations in with his main squeeze, and he would have taken a little bit longer as well had he not been killed. I don’t think it was about guys at RTL, or about blunts or cigarettes, or about anything complicated. Seventeen-year-old kid with a few minor run-ins at school? It says “girlfriend is getting you distracted right now” to me. And that’s no insult to DeeDee. He was a great kid, and she was probably a great kid too, and they should have had a chance to go through all their teen-aged angst together before breaking up in the usual style complete with sad songs and pet peeves.

    But now another thought comes to me. Perhaps, in addition to interrogating Trayvon, Fogen wanted to herd Trayvon (or “march him” if he was compliant, which he was not) over to his schtruck, so he could be standing there by the schtruck with his quarry when the cops arrived. Of course, we only have Fogen’s word about where his schtruck was parked, and I find his explanations strange and disjointed. That in addition to his general dishonesty.

    But I’m not terribly fond of that idea, just passing through.

    What I think now, and of this idea I AM terribly fond, is that the whole incident was about “THE GUN.” I believe Fogen was getting in trouble in the neighborhood because of THE GUN. I think he wanted to show the HOA and the NW and everybody who was complaining against him that he really needed THE GUN. I think he provoked an occasion to pull THE GUN and use THE GUN no matter what his ultimate goal was. In that respect, he’s like the NRA people who always show up right in the very town where a bunch of innocent people have been killed to start blabbing about the need for more THE GUNs to protect people from people with guns. Fogen wanted to prove that everybody in RTL needed him to be there with THE GUN at all times. That’s what I think motivated him to sacrifice a young person on his personal altar to the GUN GOD. He made Trayvon Martin into a human sacrifice because he had a savage, murderous religion and a cruel, bloodthirsty deity. THE GUN.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I can just picture Fogen blowing the smoke from the barrel afterward.

      Happy happy, all!

    • Erica says:

      @Marisha….IDK, I mean he had 40 bucks on him, he was outside the 7-11for more time than normal, maybe it was already pooring down. His mother probably was not thinking of Deedee when she sent him with his dad. It was more like he needs some re-reinforcement for his behavior and it was prob more of a discipline thinng than a DeeDee thing. But….IT…..DOES….NOT….MATTER…..FORGEN….if u r here…..FORGEN WAS STILL…. WAYYYYYYYY out of LINE!!

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      But he does play with neighborhood kids in the grass out behind the houses, we know that. Neither him nor his father, nor Ms Green would know of the Burgess matters, only GZ would know that, and he would have an opportunity to use them to contact TM, Trayvon would not be privy to much neighborhood gossip, so he’d probably accept the acquaintance of them or one of them. That would be all that would be needed.

      It’s a very simple and effective trick, often used to lure people to where the surprise party is to be held. You get someone who the party boy/girl, doesn’t associate with his friends or family, like a neighbor who he just barely knows, that keeps the party boy in the dark. Whereas someone closer to him just might give things away.

      DD didn’t go to the funeral for a variety of reasons, I think the best one is, she was advised not to reveal herself. If she went, who knows who could have identified her and what might happen with that information. It was a wise decision to be sure, given what we’re seeing. and Crump already knows that there’s something like racism already at work, so they’ve got to protect any youthful witness from the start.

      Be careful when using “run ins at school” that smacks of physical altercations. Those were all very minor and passive infractions, but we already know that blacks are punished more severely than white kids, so it’s hardly a wonder so much was made of these incidents.
      Claiming that costume jewelry is jewelry that might be stolen, I’ve never heard of such nonsense. A white kid found with a screwdriver and some costume jewelry wouldn’t have even been recorded.
      But, for a black kid a screwdriver becomes either a burglary tool or a dangerous weapon. Go figure! It doesn’t even matter that Trayvon had displayed an aptitude for working on mechanical things. See how easily that is forgotten?

      As far as the “herding” goes, I think GZ was actually trying to herd Trayvon back to the T, but he was prevented from doing so when witnesses began to appear. Remember, witnesses would place GZ, far south of the T. So, if he herded him back there, his story couldn’t possibly work anymore, so he stopped and decided he had to finish things right there. He appears to be a bit addled by drugs, by comparison to his normal speech, heard on his previous 911 and NeN calls, to the speech patterns heard on 2/26/12. Now he’s slurring his speech, he doesn’t do that on other days, he speaks clearly and crisply. The difference is both dramatic and highly remarkable.

      So far, I’m still working on GZ suddenly realizing that grabbing and holding this kid, after having followed him against police advice, and having his weapon on him, if not already drawn, put him in a very bad position if Trayvon lived to tell about it and explain what had actually occurred, as opposed to the lies GZ is seeking to tell.

      But that view will change, depending on what we are able to learn about who assisted him that night.

      Kids weren’t questioned because the police were not really interested in investigating this case, they were actually trying to cover it up, so they’d cast as shallow a net as possible. They even excluded possible adult witnesses and nearby addresses from their so called canvas. And they let his truck go entirely. Whatever they could do to limit the investigation was done. Even allowing GZ to refuse a trip to the ER, which, in a homicide investigation should have been mandatory, since his wounds were being claimed to be part of the crime scene activity, they should have been subjected to high level professional investigation. Because they were also evidence, but they were not examined professionally, as part of the attempt to not discover as much as they could fail to discover.

      • Malisha says:

        You’re absolutely right that nothing Trayvon ever did would have been even NOTICED if he had been a preppy white kid instead of a preppy Black kid. Both he and his brother were definitely preppy, though — can’t deny that. As to the screwdriver being in his backpack, I was checking in at a courthouse once and when I went through the metal detector, they confiscated a can opener! I remembered that I had taken a can opener with me to New York so I could lunch easily in public parks as I ran errands, but then forgot it. I’m sure I would have a criminal record a yard long by now if I were black and found in possession of that dangerous weapon! (They gave it back to me when I left and I am having memorial tunafish as we speak.) Women’s jewelry? Wow, what a “tell” — definitely a thug. Thugs always carry women’s costume jewelry in case there’s a shoot out and they want to throw things around to distract the attention of the shooters, by refracted light flashes of the car headlights off the rhinestones. A baggie with “residue” in it? Do they have one of those expensive testing machines in the school to identify marijuana or do they just do it by sniffer dogs (“That black lab, man, he’s groovy”)?

        It’s a disgrace what we “learn” through what we’re expecting. Folks at the Outhouse expect that their own feces are odor free but somehow, they always smell trouble from others…

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The conclusions they jump to about the mj baggie are unwarranted, simply because they’re found all over the place, and kids often pick them up because they look interesting. Remember those crack vials that used to be found on the streets? When you saw one, you could practically look around and see where it most likely came from.

          When a friend purchased a house in a neighborhood, I went for a visit, I spotted a few of those crack vials, the ones with the colored tops/caps, laying around, I picked one up to show him that there were users around. While walking to a coffee shop, we saw kids picking them up, because of the colors, they didn’t know what they were but I guess they looked like toys to them, or strange candy holders etc., So, just having empty containers isn’t enough to make any assessment, but, I guess these lowly school security guards want to play Columbo every chance they get. Best do it with black kids though, their parents raise less of a stink about it.

          Anyway there have been studies done that conclude that blacks are punished more often and more harshly than whites and for even more minor infractions. Hardly a wonder that Trayvon has a disciplinary record. The fact that it’s not more serious shows that he’s only being tagged for extremely minor infractions, all of which are passive rule breaking, if they actually were rule breaks at all, and not just someone jumping to conclusions. After all, none of those claims were ever subjected to testing.

  48. Nefertari05 says:

    Joyous Holiday Season to all here!

    • gblock says:

      Each night a child is born is a holy night
      A time for singing
      A time for wondering
      A time for worshipping
      Each night a child is born is a holy night.

      (Song sung in Unitarian Universalist churches at Christmas Eve service, words by Sofia Lyon Fahs)

  49. Malisha says:

    LadyStClaire, I can’t find your rhyme. You posted it this morning?

  50. Dennis says:

    Breaking news: Voldemort is being sued by a security company because his blood money has run dry. The article also alleges that the company told O’Mara that his security was excessive which is further evidence that Voldemort is trying to use the race card to play victim.

  51. Patricia says:

    Thank you xena ,malisha and to all that have posted for justice for trayvon and all of our children.
    Omg I was reading early on and was watching law and order special victims and it was called vigilante justice and one guy made a statement “this sounds like that case in Florida where that kid trayvon martin got shot” , I almost fell off my chair. Yes !!!!!

    • damn! i missed it???!!

      BTW 1025 comments!! yippie i was waiting for a 1000!!!

    • Xena says:

      @Patricia. I thank you and all others here, and especially the Professor for providing us with a place to share, joke, laugh, cry.

      I missed Law and Order but have a feature of catching missed programs, so maybe I can find it. There are only a handful of folks who do not see the truth of what GZ did and why. As we see by the lack of his financial donors, they don’t support GZ as a person but rather, that he killed a Black “thug.” If he had 27,000 supporters to send him one dollar each, he could pay his outstanding security bill.

    • Diane says:

      I heard it too! I wonder how many potential jurors heard it.

    • whonoze says:

      Here comes another lawsuit against NBC!

      • Xena says:

        In my neck of the woods, Law and Order comes on the USA Network, or am I thinking about re-runs?

      • gblock says:

        First run episodes of Law & Order SVU are on NBC.

      • Rachael says:

        Nah – they didn’t say his name in association with it. But here is an interesting article:

        The February shooting of an unarmed Mr. Martin by a community watch participant sent 20th Century Fox racing to retool the title of a comedy unfortunately called “Neighborhood Watch.” (It was called just “The Watch” at its July release.)

      • Jun says:

        I dont believe he has a case with NBC at all

        It was a couple editors for a certain show who edited the tape to air it

        and the fact remains that his statements were not altered from their meaning or fullness

        The defendant who is the murderer of Trayvon, did specifically state:

        1) He was suspicious
        2) Because he was walking around looking about
        3) He was looking or staring at him
        4) He looked black
        5) He was a kid, late teens
        6) He accused him of conducting break ins
        7) He allegedly looked at all the houses (I do not know how Trayvon accomplished this feat in a matter of 20 seconds)
        8) He’s an asshole who always gets away
        9) He’s a fucking coon
        10) Shit, he is running
        11) He ran
        12) He’s running down the street
        13) Yes he was following him

        Then later there are mass 911 calls, including one that captured a kid screaming for his life, which turned out to be the same kid that the Fogenhats was stalking earlier


        So, a black kid, is not allowed to look at Zimmernuts, he is not allowed to walk down the street, because he is a black teenager, otherwise he is an asshole who always gets away and a fucking coon?

        & This was all stated before he continued stalking and terrorizing this kid, before murdering him?

    • Erica says:

      I agree Patricia, what you guys are doing is huge and it impacts all because can’t nobody in Texas, this great red/nra/syg state tell me anything different. I fight for Trayvon in my state but you guys do all the hard work and give me something to fight with!!

  52. Jun says:

    I sometimes wonder if Zimmernuts Fogenhats the 3rd is online because I swear he goes online to argue with people

    • Xena says:

      I sometimes wonder if Zimmernuts Fogenhats the 3rd is online because I swear he goes online to argue with people

      Sure he does, and he follows the same pattern. First, he tries to distract from the subject of himself. That’s usually by regurgitating the mantra about his head being beaten on concrete. If that fails, he attacks by name calling and demeaning. If that fails, he progresses to attacking Reverends Sharpton and Jackson. If that fails, he progresses to attacking Trayvon’s parents. That is generally followed with diatribes of how the case will be dismissed at the next hearing, or after the next election, or after the next holiday. The anger speaks loudly.

      • racerrodig says:

        His name on HP id newbee 100. His dad is LetJusticePrevail. I attack them there all the time and get him all riled up. Being the mental midget he is, he then goes into a 1st person account all the time. Of course, having someone in the computer / LE field that confirmed this by the IP address just made things that much sweeter.

      • Erica says:

        @racerrdig, what is HP? and is newbee100 so called GZ?

    • cielo62 says:

      What else does he have to do? He won’t go out. The security detail has abandoned him. His new money manager has him on a strict allowance and his GPS jewelry won’t let him leave Seminole County. Might as well work off some of that aggression online.

      Sent from my iPod

    • racerrodig says:

      It has been proven he is on HP as newbee 100. RZ sr is LetJusticePrevail and his brother under several names.

      • Diane says:

        Aha! Racerdog, now I will go back to HP and read their posts again. It is possible that the SP could link these to GZ to support lack of remorse, racism, intent, etc.?

        • Xena says:

          It is possible that the SP could link these to GZ to support lack of remorse, racism, intent, etc.?

          The feds are no doubt tracking GZ’s internet and cell phone usage. Their investigation is ongoing because GZ continues giving them more evidence.

      • Jun says:


        I believe he has tried to argue with me

      • Malisha says:

        See that? They use several names.

        Fogen’s got the following: Newbee100, fightslikeagirl713, screamsandwhines2much, capillarylacerations2, datniggytb, pinocchio200thousand, altarboy20112, madatmom29, and “The-Suspect-2262012”

        Robert Senior has several as well: Bob-the-Magistrate, LetJusticePrevail, Make-it-up-as-you-go-along, absolutely-my-son-voice, and My-Poor-Baby’s-Nose.

        Bro Robert Junior has: Decent-American, I.Q.98plus, DuplicatePassport20110, He-Hit-Me-First, and I’mcuteranyway.

        So saying Fogen, Cheorge or defendant’s not so bad, really.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, I hope the feds are keeping up with his father and brother’s computer activities as well. some of the Trayvon faithful called out his father as being letjusticeprevail and, I’m so glad to know that he is being called out for blogging about his son’s crime of murder. I can’t stand this man and his family because, they all know TugThugboat is guilty as sin. yet they would choose to go on these blog sites and spew their hatred for his innocent victim. this just goes to show what kind of people they really are.

        • Xena says:

          @ladystclaire, because their comments do not address the comments of others, but go off on a mantra tangent, they do more harm to GZ than they realize. Their mocking of Trayvon’s death, distractions, deflections, and demeaning, sends negative energy to GZ. They plant dandelions hoping to get roses, but it doesn’t work that way.

          Look at what has happened to him. As though being homeless and unemployed while awaiting trial wasn’t enough, his trust fund is not sufficient to pay the security company, and now he is being sued.

          The next suit will no doubt be for non payment of rent.

          • Diane says:

            In hiding is an excuse. He considers himself a celebrity and no one would hire his psycho behind if he were looking for a job. The New BPP think is a crock also. $10,000? It would be cheaper for one or two of them to drive in, take GZ out, and have $9,950 left over after buying gas. It is NOT logical.

          • Xena says:

            @Diane, GZ moved in with the Osterman’s after leaving the police station in the wee hours of the morning the day after he killed Trayvon. He didn’t go into hiding then because of the NBPP. If there were threats then, it wasn’t because he killed Trayvon and was not arrested.

            The FBI and the state have his phone records. They might just know from those records the real reason GZ really went into hiding and why he is still fearful now. Personally, his and his family’s whining about being afraid makes me sick.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Why would he go online if one of the bail requirements is to not go online? Can’t he get his bail revoked again?

        • cielo62 says:

          That would be GREAT! I guess it’s up to his parole officer to report him.

          Sent from my iPod

        • racerrodig says:

          In typical Fogen fashion, he thinks by using a different name he won’t get caught.

          • cielo62 says:

            I guess he’s not familiar with IP addresses which will give you away,no matter WHAT avatar or handle you use.

            Sent from my iPod

          • racerrodig says:

            Remember, Fogen & his posse all think they are smarter than the rest of the world. When I first got the notion he was one of the most rabid on the internet, I kept asking why & what dog do you have in this fight. I started getting him so riled up, he’d slip and talk as if he was being cross – examined. I ran this by my Federal LE connection, (my sons Godfather) and asked about the IP address. Well to my joy he did confirm what I suspected. Not only Fogen but the entire group.

            So when you slapping one of them up one side and down the other, take great pride in knowing they are not fooling anyone.

      • gblock says:

        Two sides – He is probably bored and believes that they can’t prove it’s him.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I hope Professor is all right, Crane Station hasn’t been here in a while, and we need a new thread because this one is taking really long to load.

  53. Xena says:

    Since Malisha put us in the mood by putting words to Christmas music, thought you might enjoy this video.

  54. Erica says:

    New video about GZ doctor and his race, now if the doctor classified his as white, that means he must have labeled himself as a white male on his paperwork…

    • Rachael says:

      Many Hispanics do – It can be complicated. Here is a breakdown from the census department:

    • Xena says:

      Being old school, there was a time when birth certificates only had 3 races, Negro, White, and Oriental. Latinos were considered White. Now, Orientals are considered Asians and Latinos are considered Hispanic, which actually identifies the language of Spain or Hispania and not a race.

      I have a friend of Puerto Rican heritage who, as my son describes, is a pretty dark chocolate like a Hersey bar. She was born in the 1950’s and her birth certificate lists her race as “white.” It became more complicated when she gave birth to a caramel colored beautiful baby girl whose dad is from the Dominican Republic and is a White Hispanic.

      • Erica says:

        I always thought your race is whatever your father’s race is but now people are taking advantage of having a choice. Since GZ’s dad is white then he is to be considered white. Do u know what his records, i.e school records or dmv info states?

        • Diane Trotter says:

          My understanding has always been that any race mixed with white eliminates “white,” regardless of the race of parents.

          • cielo62 says:

            Maybe, back in the 50s. Race is now very complicated. As much as it hurts to write this, I am a white Hispanic, like GZ. I look Mediterranean. My brother ( the oldest one) looks Iranian. If we have black ancestry, it sure doesn’t show now.

            Sent from my iPod

        • Xena says:

          Since GZ’s dad is white then he is to be considered white.

          @Erica. IMO, that’s how GZ wanted it, but he doesn’t look White. Chances are that he has been mistaken for being Mexican and that built his resentment for Mexicans as he expressed on his MySpace page. Now his brother can easily pass for White from Italian descent.

          Do u know what his records, i.e school records or dmv info states?

          No, I do not.

          • cielo62 says:

            Ok. For the umpteenth time. Race and culture are two different things. Amongst many Hispanics there is prejudice as well. My family is from Colombia. I resent being mistaken for Mexican. Mexicans are the trailer park trash of the Latino world even though that is not fair, that’s the way it is right now. GZ is a WHITE HISPANIC. Mediterraneans who are more olive skinned are also classified as CAUCASIAN/ white.

            Sent from my iPod

      • @ Erica, i love this subject!
        my first issue with GZ and race comes from the information that Glayds might not be his mother biologically, it’s been said he’s actually her sister’s kid. Then there’s a question of whether George Sr. is their real father. They sure don’t look like him. GZ has squinty small eyes and a round face. But since we don’t know what his mother really looks like it’s hard to say who he looks like. He does look like his brother, but with a family that behaves like they have, it’s not hard to imagine both kids were adopted. GZ and RZ have real issues with race that probably have a lot to do with GZSr along with his drinking problems and woman beating. people who don’t have a decent role model growing up tend to question their identity.

      • Erica says:

        Yea, George doesn’t looks like papa at all. Did anyone notice how he changed his appeareance at the first bond hearing. During the reenactment, he clearly looks like he could be a “on the border” looking skinhead but at the bail hearing where he and MOM was playing with his hair, he looks more mexican. I think that was done on purpose!!

  55. grahase says:

    A few details about the security company lawsuit against Fogen. Imagine yourself staying at a Resort such as the one these dignitaries chose as a hideout! I hope his benefactors are reading this.

    • cielo62 says:

      It figures GZ would overestimate his importance. No surprise about the movie-set “security” requirements. Just more evidence that GZ is in an alternative universe.

      Sent from my iPod

      • Malisha says:

        It makes me laugh. One time my son and I were called out by neighbors to go with them on a community search team to find a missing four-year-old boy. We drove to a big field where hundreds of people were getting their instructions in groups of six to ten. My group, they kept holding up a picture of the kid and pointing out, “He has on a blue t-shirt.” We fanned out and were beginning our assigned searches when someone came around to tell us that he was wearing a blue t-shirt. I asked my son, quietly, “If we find a four-year-old but the t-shirt is green, do we leave him there?”

      • Two sides to a story says:

        La-la land.

    • gbrbsb says:

      OMG what a mess! We all knew he didn´t need the kind of security they have been trying to make out with all that spiel about his and Shelly´s, and his family´s lives being in danger! GZ disappeared into “hiding”, their description not mine, with MO as his bodyguard the very same night of the 26th before anyone even knew who he was or what had happened. Before there was any demonstration calling for his arrest and several weeks before the Black Panthers allegedly put a bounty on his head which if true, and that is a big IF, was for his arrest if I recall correctly and not to take him out.

      And MOM always thought the security firm was charging too much? What?! They had legal options to resolve this, i.e. challenge the bill with the firm or through the courts, dismiss the security company and find another whose charges they liked better. What you absolutely don´t do is continue with the firm and their services but not pay the bill at least not if you don´t want to be taken to court and see all the dirty laundry come out… anyone who has watched Judge Judy even once knows that much!

      • Jun says:

        Considering what has come out from the security company, they put in a lot of hours

        It is just typical Fogenhats mentality to try and enslave people to work for him and submit to his authority

        They need to pay them or be quiet

      • Diane Trotter says:

        The hotel bill is going to be a real mofo … and the room service tab will require sale of many, many autographs.

    • Jun says:

      Big surprise that even a security company stated “He was never in danger”

      Looks like more strikes against his NBC suit LOL

      • Xena says:

        Big surprise that even a security company stated “He was never in danger”

        Had the New Black Panther Party been serious about anyone’s ability to capture GZ, they would have captured him themselves. Bounties like that are never for strangers to start a man hunt. Rather, they are to appeal to friends and relatives who know the person’s whereabouts. Maybe GZ left Osterman’s because he feared Mark would turn him in for $10,000. Hahaha.

      • Dave says:

        I don’t believe that the $10,000 reward was anything more than a publicity stunt. It was a very stupid one as it was a solicitation to commit a felony (kidnapping).

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Hahaha… His own security company would know, they deployed people every where GZ went and watched the crowds that happened to be there, to see if there was any special interest being paid to him. My guess is that the few people who recognized him, quietly pointed fingers and walked swiftly away. Otherwise he drew no attention at all. After that went on, day after day after day, they certainly would be able to say that there was never a threat. In fact there was no paparrazzi hanging around. No one even wanted his picture as no media outlet was willing to pay.

        Seems that every “reality” GZ entertained, was entirely in his own mind. Worse, this is the clown MOM allowed to lead him around by the nose and totally destroy both MOM’s case and the entire fund raising effort as well. I doubt anyone would want to hire MOM to fight parking tickets after this.

    • Diane Trotter says:

      I’m not familiar with Orlando so I looked up the 4-star Single Creek Resort. around $200 per night

      • racerrodig says:

        Gee, and they had us thinking they were forced to stay at the “No Tell Motel” I clearly remember Pa Pa talking about that. I guess they lied.

    • groans says:

      Grahase, thanks for the link. I don’t think we’ll be well-informed about the claims until we can read the Complaint ourselves.

      However, what jumped out at me from the “angle” this ClickOrlando article took is:

      1. The mention, in two places, to ASI protecting the killer from “PAPARAZZI” !! Last I knew those are photographers, not assassins! And all this time O’Mara whines and cries and begs on the killer’s behalf that the killer’s LIFE is in danger – that he must run and hide for fear of his LIFE! I wonder if we might eventually learn that he’s been deathly afraid of his image, rather than (or at least more so) than his death.

      2. The use of “COUNTER-INTELLIGENCE” – again, supposedly used to protect against “paparazzi” – is deeply concerning and of interest to me. I wonder what and how much “counter-intelligence” has been used, and against whom? This aspect is rather frightening, IMO.

      This lawsuit may prove to be one of the most fascinating bizarre turns of all, in this sorry circus of a pursuit of justice.

      • Malisha says:

        Fogen used his bodyguards for “counter-intelligence”? The man is MAD! He is not a nation; he’s a chubby misfit whose only claim to fame is that he killed an innocent kid with a hollow-point bullet allegedly because he couldn’t hold up his end of a minor fisticuffs in a doggie-poo yard. “Counter-intelligence” on what? On who is trying to kill him? On who is saying bad things about him? On who wants to photograph him? [Hope they do a better job than Witness-Schmitness who got a shot of the back of his head while he chatted on his cell phone or Officer Gee-Wizz-I-forgot Wagner.] Or does he have his counter-intelligence working hard on trying to figure out if there are two DeeDees? Or if Benjamin Crump sits in the front row at Church? Or if Angela Corey has ever had an affair with Charlie Crist? All this is the fault of NBC for saying Fogen said, “And he’s a pbhllack male…”

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Well, clearly he is afraid of himself, or rather, denies his dark side and projects that onto the world. “Those azzholes always get away . . .”

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      It seems to me that much of Z’s support has dried up. All that remains are a few remnant/errant posters sprouting easily dis-proven fare. I think GZ and MOM are finally realizing that their cause is repelling people, rather than gathering any steam.

      The security outfit must be new to the business, they should never ever take on a client without a signed agreement of some sort. The court will probably give them something, but they will first have to prove that they have established rates. They will need sign in and sign out sheets, reports and other documentation to prove their hours/man hours. If they’re charging special rates, they’ll need to show how those rates are figured etc., Even then, without a signed agreement, they’ll probably not be fully compensated, as per the verbal agreement. But instead, I think they’ll get a little better than standard rates, especially if they can prove that their client demanded extra service.

      Reputable companies have contracts ready to be signed, why? Because they don’t want non-professional interference with their mission, because that puts the client and their own reputation at risk. Only desperado’s and con men do business on a handshake! Unless the amount is too trivial to warrant a contract.

      • Dave says:

        It’s hard to imagine why O’Mara, a lawyer, would enter into a contract for services without all the terms carefully spelled out on paper unless he was planning to pull a fast one on the other party.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          It’s very difficult doing business with lawyers because they have easy access to the courts and can effectively represent themselves, while lay people, providing services, need to hire lawyers to sue, and that cost money. In these kinds of cases there are few, if any contingency lawyers. So, you have to pay the freight up front.

          This is used as a very strong negotiating point, even if you do have a contract, you’re likely to settle rather than go to court, so your 800 dollar bill becomes a 4 or 5 hundred dollar settlement. Lawyers who do that kind of thing on a regular basis give the profession a bad name.

          In this case they are owed a large enough amount to make it worth the cost and effort. Still, not having a contract, is going to make it very difficult for them to substantiate any fees, over and above their normal rates. It’s their word against MOM’s that any extra services were requested/ordered or necessary. He’s certainly not going to admit that he ever asked for anything extra etc.

          Worse, without a means to prove that MOM violated a contract term, there’s no way that punitive damages can be assessed. So, the barrier against getting the shaft by shady attorneys (or anyone else) is down. I read somewhere that the Bar Association frowns on this type of activity, but I see no where that they track the frequency of these disputes by lawyers and their providers.

          • racerrodig says:

            I can say from my experiences as an expert witness, as soon as AIS was paid one dime a contract is in effect. Since they were paid $40K, they cannot argue there was no contract. Oral contracts are recognized and there was an “Offer” “Consideration” and a “Payment”

            Fogen can only try and minimize the amount but with a detailed 73 page complaint, I’d say he’s screwed.

          • Diane says:

            contract acronym (from study for CPA exam) COALL
            Consideration – payment
            Offer – Mom/GZ asked
            Acceptance – secuirty company accepted by doing
            Legal subject matter – security services
            Legal tender – US dollars

            Straight time hours should be too hard to prove. Beyond that, I dunno.

          • racerrodig says:

            “Straight time hours should be too hard to prove.”

            Should that be “…shouldn’t be too hard to prove” These companies are bonded and they keep a log. My dad used to do PI work in addition to being a cop and their log was unquestioned at every level, even in court.

            I believe he’ll owe the entire amount if he decides to go to trial and not settle in arbitration. Of course they’ll be in line behind the IRS for the $70 he owes them come 2013 !! Bwa hahahahahahahaha !

            Yep, he’s so much smarter than everyone.

          • Diane says:

            Yeah – shouldn’t be. I suck at multitasking. Proofing goes out the window.

          • racerrodig says:

            That’s OK……I still love ya !! Yes siree. He’ll owe God knows how much to O’ Mara, $60 K to AIS, $70 K in taxes and when the wrongful death lawsuit is over and he owes millions to Trayvon’s family and he’s in prison for life, he’ll regret he ever heard Osterman say “……hey, you need a gun & a permit, it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy”

            Maybe he’ll have nightmares where SheLie keeps saying “…..I told you we needed bread, milk, some chips, soda and Ziti for dinner tomorrow, but nooooooooooooo…….you couldn’t just drive to Target, you had to go Target somebody”

            Then again, it’s Fogen who says he wouldn’t change a damn thing.

          • Dianetrotter says:

            I don’t think he was going to Target. Possibly he/his crew had spotted TM over the past 7 days. I wonder why those needy Black kids that he mentors, or their parents, have not spoken up to tell what a wonderful guy he is. Did he mentor through some organization or was it something he did on his own? Had he mentored kids in his neighborhood he could have deterred some of those bad Black kids.

          • racerrodig says:

            For the record, there is no record of any mentoring. This was a spur of the moment comment he made and has tossed out there to make him seem like the new MLK. Just like Osterman telling us he has so many black friends they could have a March of their own.

            Even my LE connections have stated the mentoring is bull. In this day of mass communication, there is no way someone would not have come forward with names, e-mails, texts, a location or some information about it.

            Fromm day 1 I have said he was on his way the Target (someone) and never believed he was on his way out for something as wholesome as milk, bread & eggs. Not a chance at all. He was on a mission.

          • Diane says:

            I’d laugh if this were not a tragedy. He was on his way “to Target (TM)” How profound!

          • racerrodig says:

            Truly this is a tragic event and justice needs to be dealt. However, you can laugh as we are not laughing at the event. We laugh at what Fogen and his posses say and do. We laugh at the fact that they lie so poorly in an effort to deny justice as the world knows it. We can laugh at the stupid names the Zidiots give themselves on all these sites and what the try to inflict.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Well their was a contract, but it was an unwritten one, so the finer points it may have contained are lost, unless they’re reflected in the paid portion of the bill.

            If they are reflected in the paid portion of the bill, even if only in higher, but unenumerated costs, then MOM will have to make a showing that any changes were warranted by changes in circumstances etc., if not then such changes won’t be allowed and the paid bill will set the tone as to how the later charges will be settled.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Oh, don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t saying that they didn’t have a case, all I was saying was that a lack of a written agreement, makes it much easier to controvert matters, such that the recovery is likely to be less than what was agreed too.

            With a 73 page complaint, I have to imagine that they’ve detailed the rates they were charging in the paid portion of their bill. If the same special services are included in both the paid and unpaid portions, then GZ loses a considerable amount of leverage. His only resort is to somehow claim that a reduction in services was ordered but not implemented. That, of course, would have to be supported by some claim and showing that the situation had materially changed from what it had been. Otherwise GZ and MOM will lose this one as well.

          • racerrodig says:

            Let me say that I know from experience having been the plaintiff in a civil case where money was owed me for a loan and for some musical equipment, the judge stated that there may be no written contract but that did not matter in the least. The other party made 2 miniscule money order payments ($5.00 & $10.00) on the $10,000.00 + amount. As a comical note, this guy marked the $5.00 payment “Last Payment” trying to make it look like he had paid all of it off except the last few bucks. He was ordered to pay me as the MO’s were proof of the contract. He acknowledged the money and never denied the other items. To boot, he was ordered to pay 10% interest and costs which drove the amount to almost double.

      • racerrodig says:

        Many years ago we hired a Private Investigator for something and they have an hourly log. Just like a lawyers time, that log will be used as will any expenses. So if they say this log shows 26 hours by Joe and 39 by Billy Bob, that’s what they will probably get. They are bonded also.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          For sure they will have logs to cover their time, but, without an agreement, it will be difficult to establish that special services and special fees were either ordered or needed. My guess is they can prove basic services and fees, simply by showing their established rates already collected from other clients. The real trick will be to establish, by evidence, that higher costs were either necessary, ordered by the client or agreed to.

          The stage for the battle is already set, by MOM saying they charged him too much, while they’re saying that too much security was ordered. A gambit that has them going in the same direction. They both claim that there were excesses, the Co wants to blame the client for this, the client wants to blame the Co for this.

          MOM, being a lawyer, knew this was going to happen, long before it did. That’s why he didn’t want to sign any contract, since that puts him on the best foot to dispute the bill. The security company is about to learn an expensive lesson.

          The client says “I want a man here and here and better put one here for good measure”. The Co’s reply is: “Okay, sign here, and here, and here, initial and date here!”

          • racerrodig says:

            All a moot issue. Once they made a payment to AIS there is a contract in place. If they had not been paid anything O’ Mara could say, we had no contract for money and they provided security for my client just like Zimwits send him money….because the are gun nutzz, er, believe he’s innocent.

            The law provides for oral contracts and once Offer, Acceptance & Consideration have happened……it’s a contract.

            O’ Mara asked for security and AIS agreed to provide (Offer)
            Terms and payment are agreed upon (Acceptance)
            Payment of $40 K was already made (Consideration)

            They have logs that keep the time of each employee and all expenses and this by law is a bonded company. He’s going to have to pay them. How many times did O’ Mara mention all the security that was needed.

  56. grahase says:

    Aside from Fogen, who else said that he carried all the time. I know his cop friend Osterman said so. Both have zero credibility. They need you to believe this to be true. This is why Fogen didn’t even remember he had it until Trayvon spied it. Come on. If he carried every day, all the time (except work), this statement is ridiculous and why even bring it up.

    However, after spending time with Osterman, the story changes. Now, he always has his gun with him.

    Two issues – 1) If he carries it all the time, so what, slap on the wrist.

    – 2) If he doesn’t carry all the time, but did that night, it could be considered he was pre-meditating when he heard the Thug alert.

    So, if I were a good friend, and if I were a cop, I think my best advice would be to say you always carried.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      He’s crazy if he thinks anyone is going to believe his lie about forgetting he had a gun with him. He never forgets his gun. In fact, he even has Shelly’s gun with him that night. Whether he mistook her gun for his or not, he knew he had not misplaced his gun, he knew he was not without a gun. At some point in time he loaded his gun with especially deadly ammunition. So, that’s yet another reason he can’t forget about his gun.

      Most people don’t even forget their house keys and they’re not as serious as a concealed carry weapon, loaded with special “sure kill” ammunition.

      Why “sure kill” ammo if you’re only target is a dog? Loading it to “plus one” condition, because the dog won’t give you time? When or who did the dog ever attack? He’s so afraid of a barking domestic animal that he suddenly needs a sure kill firearm? He’s beyond ridiculous. His ammunition and his practice sessions are aimed at killing people, not dogs.

      • Jun says:

        He took Shellie’s gun. That is proof, he specifically went out with that gun, since it is not his gun.

        • Xena says:

          IMO, George didn’t own a gun. That story about him buying 2 guns is just that — a story. ShelLIE bought the gun and GZ carried it. There is a question as to whether GZ’s CCL license was valid. Racer has introduced that question because of a returned fee for the license. I also question the validity because there was no notice to revoke his license after his arrest, but ShelLIE did get such notice.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Right on, with GZ’s cash flow problems, it’s hard to imagine him buying two guns, without MO lending him the money. The lack of cancel notice does point to him not having a cc, because he too should have received notice as well. What then is to be made of that cc card he carried?

            It’s like in NY, you have to keep your car insurance current. If you don’t, your insurer notifies DMV and they revoke your registration and demand you send in your plates. No demands to return your plates means you have no car. If you’re driving a car, then that car must belong to someone else. No way around it. If you don’t return your plates your drivers license will be suspended.

            But my question is, does one have to own a weapon to obtain a ccp?
            Or can you obtain a ccp using someone else’s weapon?

          • racerrodig says:

            “But my question is, does one have to own a weapon to obtain a ccp?”

            No, just like having a DL and not owning a car.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yes, of course, and he also had to check it, to make doubly sure that it was loaded with hollow points and also loaded to plus 1 status.
          So, that’s two things he had to check before he holstered the weapon and left home with it. I can’t imagine Shelly being much of a gun nut. So, I don’t think she’d have kept the gun in plus one load condition. Obviously she didn’t go out to the shooting range with him or accompany him to Osterman’s for shooting sessions.

      • Rachael says:

        Everything with him is “overkill,” be it dogs, security or teens walking leisurely in the rain, looking about.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I note that in other NeN and 911 calls, GZ doesn’t push the narrative of criminal thug quite so hard. In fact, as NW, he knows that this overkill narrative isn’t necessary, since the police will respond without it. Thus, it’s real purpose has to be something else. Could that “something else” be that he had a result on his mind, that would be so dramatic, that it would require all this?
          Could he, actually, have been pushing himself forward with this narrative pushing? Why is he out there in his impaired state?
          Is that preparation for him to do something so dramatically different than he has ever done before, that it requires him to be both impaired and working himself into a lather?

          That’s exactly what it seems to me. It seems that his plan includes something more than just grabbing and detaining, but actually killing someone. As that explains why he’s trying so hard to demonize his target and why he’s also impaired himself. Two features we don’t see in previous police contacts.

  57. Malisha says:

    Fogen, the red-nosed wannabe,
    had a very bloody nose,
    and if you photographed him,
    you would see his boo boo shows.
    All of the cops who knew him
    told him they would let him flee.
    That’s why their buddy, Fogen,
    spoke with such alacrity.

    Then one shiny April day,
    All the tables turned.
    Fogen learned that all his words
    had been disbelieved and spurned.
    Then there was court and judges,
    lots of fighting to and fro,
    I’m guessing that this Christmas,
    Fogen won’t say “ho ho ho”!

    • cielo62 says:

      AWESOME! LOVE IT! I envy clever people like you! 🙂

      Sent from my iPod

    • Xena says:


      Speaking of April, his cell phone contract is due to expire. I wonder if he’ll have enough money to pay it monthly for him and ShelLIE.

      • cielo62 says:

        Only if its Cricket!

        Sent from my iPod

        • Xena says:

          LOL@cielo62. Yeah, but what then will he do with those $300 cell phones? He had a land line installed too, paid by donations. I wonder where and what purpose it serves now?

          • cielo62 says:

            Dial up computer service?

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            Dial up computer service?

            But he bought a 2 yr contract for WiFi. Maybe for a home security system for the Ostermans? IIRC, installing the land line was more than a thousand dollars, so it sounds much more elaborate than a simple phone line.

          • cielo62 says:

            True. A plug in land line is only $20.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            True. A plug in land line is only $20

            My house came with a security system. When I called to have a tech come out to activate it, he said that experience thieves know how to cut phone lines, so he put it on a satellite system. Oh — and he had to change a room sensor because I have a big dog that would set it off. 🙂

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            He’d better get DSL, dial up met it’s end back about 5 years ago, when websites grew over the 3 – 4 megabyte size. I still keep my dial up company because I use it to keep my mail and subscriptions etc. that means I don’t have to re-do my e-mail/subscriptions, every time I change providers.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        @ Malisha: Funny! :_D

    • Jun says:

      Fogenhats stalked and terrorized an unarmed kid

      The kid did not recognize the Fogen was a wanna be authority so Fogen killed the kid is what he did

      Fogenhats did not want to go to prison
      so he staged some injuries

      Fogen photoshopped a bloody nose
      and now being sued by his security

      Then in April, he tried lying to the court too

      He hid passport and money in a safe deposit box
      & his supporters think he’s a Jew

      But Fogen’s not a Jew,
      He’s German & Peruvian

      Then Osterman went on TV
      and said they had 324 friends that are Nubian

      Judge Lester called him potted palm
      trying to lead them down the primrose path

      Fogen got a new judge
      named Nelson, and she kept the ankle bracelet on his a$$

      That means Fogenhats
      cant go out between 6pm to 6am

      Fogenhats cant leave Seminole County
      So He had Junior be the family spokesperson gay friend

    • ladystclaire says:

      Oh $hit, this is to damn funny and, I LOVE IT! you are one in a million. it’s good to know that FAT BOY is the @ss of all jokes.

  58. Malisha says:

    Here we are respectfully (entre nous) speaking about how we address and refer to George Zimmerman. And that’s good, and that’s to our credit. But I’d also like to look at a certain phenomenon that, although I have not analyzed it mathematically, I sense may be at work. See what you think about this:

    Before Fogen was arrested there was a massive, extremely loud, horrified and at times horrifying call for him to be arrested.

    Then he was arrested.

    90% of the rage and outrage died down.

    Then he and O’Mara put on suits and did the Hannity Interview.

    Big outpouring of rage and outrage was reinvigorated and in some instances became worse.

    Started to die down again.

    Then his lawyer went “apepoo” in court about Trayvon being an MMA enthusiast and DeeDee not being genuine about being sad that Trayvon “passed.” They wanted everybody’s twitters and school records but still wanted to protect Fogen’s nose.

    Rage and outrage reinvigorated.

    Began to die down again.

    Then they began to show their “jingle-bells-red blood on Fogennose” pictures all over the place and it got reheated.

    What I see is this: Fogen killed Trayvon Martin. Premeditated or not premeditated, he killed Trayvon Martin and announced that he did not regret it. So every time he tries to re-kill Trayvon Martin, those of us who have survived his killing of Trayvon Martin become very angry all over again and we respond with renewed condemnation. HE said he did it and HE said he didn’t regret it and HE is still cocking around spouting off about his poor nose, his poor head, poor him being talked about nasty, him him him him, and the kid is still dead. Just don’t strain my psyche with worry about whether I have shown him enough respect. If he would stop whining in public about all the wrong done to him I might feel differently. But as it is? I wouldn’t spit on the best part of him if he were on fire. If in the future he is imprisoned I will probably allow my indignation to die down, or encourage it to die down, or something, but right now, I’m not worrying about saying something demeaning towards him. Let him deal with that with his therapist.

    Oh, BTW. If he doesn’t want to apologize for killing Trayvon Martin, OK. He should still apologize for having called him an “asshole,” a “fucking punk,” and “up to no good,” because even Fogen never alleged that there was evidence Trayvon Martin had ever broken into or burglarized any residence at RTL. So good shoot or bad shoot, his original “probable cause” was non-existent and he should apologize. Not even a cop would have been allowed to get away with rousting someone without probable cause, once the press got ahold of the story.

    So until I hear a credible, heartfelt, public apology from George Zimmerman for having badmouthed Trayvon Martin before any kind of attack by either of them upon either of the other of them had occurred, I’m holding myself exempt from any criticism for referring to said George Zimmerman in a demeaning, disrespectful, or inappropriate manner.

    Hey Fogen, got that? Understood it? Say “yes ma’am” real pretty now, defendant.

    • ladystclaire says:

      Very well stated and, I posted a reply to your jingle but, somehow it posted where it shouldn’t have. my first post on here this AM was meant for you.

  59. colin black says:

    In this day of high tech face to face real time comunications ..There has to be a change in the way jurours are treated..You can give a seqestered jury all the treats an cakes..They are still being coralled by the goverment forced to sit in judgement over a stranger or strangers.Confinement even in luxury is still confinement.Seperation from your loved ones besides on the phone same as prisoners.What realy disturbs me with a seqestered jury though is human nature.If you are one of the jurours with an agenda perhaps.An forced to live cheek by jowl allowed only to socalise with your fellow jury members for weeks mnths?It gives you a chance to suss people out find there likes disslikes .Political leanings family background moral fibre .Lets face it an above avarge intellegence person or persons could as Xena once stated have a lower calibre intellect..Humming God Save America with there thumb stuck up there butt. if they wished to do so…………………………………………………………………………………….And the chances of an above average intellege.type with an agenda getting on a high profile jury are very high i m o.They say that the people that end up as jurours are the ones dumb enough not to be able to figure a way out of serveing..On the other scale great care is taken dureing voi dire to weed out those that seem over eager to serve ,,Stands to reason that anyone with an agenda whom manages to get onto the jury panel .Must have walked the tight wire just right to get aproved.Probably end up as foreman or woman as well when the jury retires to deside there verdict……………………..Reading some of the comments over at the Orlando sentinel sitr they are beyond vile..I dread to think of one of those ending up on the jury..Wich is why I feel the State will request a change of venue.An the Defence will want to remain put..Ultimitly they will go the bus in a out of state jury an seqester them…Wich i dread,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,So as I said at the start of my post why not start trials maybe with small civil cases at first .Where jurours agree to some limitations .As they do in normal cases not to discuss ect.But the jurours are online .They reveiw proceedings either from home or some other location.This ensures that they have no interaction /conversation with fellow jurours untill deliberations start.They ouldnt even know what there fellow jurours look like…Some wotnessses have already given evidence over video.Already in hearings the phone is utilised to talk to experts or witnesses.If electronic jurours work in smaller coursts .Eventually scale it up .An the tech is improveing all the time.So it can be used in all trials Jurors could do there sevice from the comfort of there own homes an stay with there family an pets…All the jurours annonimity would be doubly assured not only from the media an public .But from there fellow jurours…Intimidation /peer pressure/would also be eliminated from the process.

    • gblock says:

      Colin, what you are suggesting actually increases existing issues with juries.

      The intent of a trial is to have jurors evaluate the evidence presented to them, and not any other evidence. Most jurors are not sequestered, even for fairly major cases. When sequestration happens, it’s because of a judgment that the jurors could otherwise not be shielded from being “contaminated” by exposure to outsider evidence. In many cases, it is considered enough that jurors be warned to avoid such contamination. But in some high profile cases, it may seem to be unavoidable.

      There is an potential issue with jurors discussing a case while it is still being presented. But a greater potential problem is that jurors will hear or read things about a case from other sources. In addition, if jurors are following the case remotely, how do the judge and everyone else know that the jurors are actually listening to everything?

      In addition, group discussion and consensus it the purpose of deliberations. They are supposed to discuss the evidence together, and try to figure out what is important and how it fits into the big picture. Someone who is in the minority originally may have important things to say that may persuade others to look at things from a different point of view. Yes, there is a chance of intimidation, but having the jurors discuss issues as a group is central to the deliberation process.

      • Malisha says:

        Jurors being all in the same room together with the judge, lawyers and witnesses is also important. This is a very organic thing, a trial. Not only does each juror have a responsibility to other jurors, he or she has a responsibility to the whole society. They are on trial right along with the defendants.

      • colin black says:

        Im not a tech wiz but as I said Tech is improveing an you ask how would the judge ect know remote jurours are paying attention..Well with skype an face time over various systems laptops an ipods tablets ect…Its a two way process the people interacting see each other in reall time..Id suggest each jurour is issued with a hand held tablet as well as a fixed large screen showing them an image of court.Not whats being broadcast on the media ,But special jurour tv,,,YOU could have i2 16 or 8 moniters in the jury box showing there faces an faceial expressions so the meddia could observe as if they were phycically present.You would certainly know they were present an paying attention..They wouldnt be able to wander of an play tablle tennis with there kids,,Im also of the opinion that randomly picking members of the public to sit an judge someones guilt or innocence is a gamble .An one shouldnt gamble with a persons right to freedom or punishment avoided for a crime they have comitted onrandom members of society.For what ever reason it be proven that jurys will set guilty people free.And send innocent people to jail.Thats the result of random members of the population being tasked with serveing on jurys….i m o we have to develop a system were jurours serve for a period of time years 5?Its debateable ……………………………………………………………….An thease pro jourors must be beyond reproach an such people do exsist…Educated an knowlageable an not even about the law but life………………..Merry Christmas Fred Crane ..Dexter.Cherokee Native Malisha Xena gblock.Jun.ceilo62.gbrbsb.Unitron.DaveLonniestarShannoninMiami.Ladysaintcaire..sdun.nemeriy..Searchingminds..Cercando luce .Rachel ..I Could fill a page with names an it would be the longest post Id ever wrote so I will end with all the best in the comeing year God Bless Trayvon …To his Family an loved ones Theres no reason to feel festive .Justice is comeing in 2013…………

      • gblock says:

        A few years ago, I was called in to jury duty for a major gang trial. Because they expected to find it difficult to assemble a suitable jury, they called in a lot of people, and about 120 people showed up on the first day. That was too many people to fit into the courtroom, so they put the overflow in a separate room, where we sat on straight chairs and watched the proceedings on piped-in TVs. The first day, they did some preliminary stuff, read the indictment (which took over 2 hours), and had us fill out multi-page questionaires.

        About 80 of us returned a few days later. (The rest were apparently excluded on basis of their responses – maybe they had already heard too much about the case.) They then began the questioning of each individual potential juror.

        I was in the overflow room the first day, but I made it into the actual courtroom the second day. There really is a much stronger sense of immediacy in being in the actual courtroom. I admit, it wasn’t a 2-way TV, and the people in the courtroom couldn’t see the people in the overflow room. But I doubt that jurors would get a greater sense of immediacy watching remotely over Skype. (No, I didn’t make it onto the actual jury.)

        As for the “professional jury” issue, in the USA our founding fathers put a great stock in the concept of a criminal trial involving a jury of one’s peers. We could question exactly what that means, but that would probably rule out having a professional jury. I can see arguments on both sides, but I think permitting it might require a constitutional amendment.

  60. boar_d_laze says:

    Speaking of slurs, the defendant’s name isn’t “fogen” or “Cheorge” or anything else it isn’t.

    I’m not sure what “fogen” is about, but it’s clearly meant to demean.

    “Chorge,” “Cheorge” are obviously racist. And unless you’re speaking Spanish, “Jorge” is just as bad.


    • jm says:

      I’m not sure what “fogen” is about, but it’s clearly meant to demean.
      “Chorge,” “Cheorge” are obviously racist. And unless you’re speaking Spanish, “Jorge” is just as bad.

      I have used Chorge to mimic the way the GZ pronounced his name on the NEN call, where it appeared he was under the influence of something. I don’t associate Chorge or Cheorge as racist. My Spanish speaking friends do not mispronounce George as Chorge or Cheorge but rather Yorge as they replace soft G with a Y just as they replace J with Y.

      From now on I will just call GZ the lying killer. I would think he would prefer Chorge or Cheorge or even Fogen. This was all started to avoid using his given name, just as many commentators have avoided using the Connecticut killer’s given name and refer to him as the shooter/killer.

      • boar_d_laze says:

        If you want to sound like the commentators, call Mr. Zimmerman “the defendant.”

        With the exception of a few dipthongs and double letters, Spanish pronunciation tends to be very consistent. In Spanish, a “J” is pronounced the same way an “H” is in English, and not at all like a “Y.”


        • cielo62 says:

          Wrong BDL. In Latin American Spanish, the soft G is pronounced like an American Zh sound. Girafa is pronounce zhirafah. Ask anybody from Colombia on down. Spanish is not homogenous. It has many regional variations.

          Sent from my iPod

        • jm says:

          A majority of the commentators on the Connecticut shootings are referring to the shooter as “the killer” and I will do the same, referring to GZ as The Killer (of Trayvon Martin). He may be the defendant in the 2nd degree murder case but there is no question or doubt he is The Killer.

          I can only go on my personal experience with my friends who speak primarily Spanish and English with a dialect. They substitute my name which begins with a J with a Y.

          You know with all the things wrong in this world, the horrific murders of innocent kids, it seems your focus would not be nit-picking how The Killer’s name should be pronounced.

          Oh well…….


          • cielo62 says:

            Jm- the truly saddest thing is that 100 more people have been killed by gun violence in the week since CT. Killers over shoes, over road rage, over absolutely stupid things. We can’t refer to each if them as “the killer”. GZ is what I use, but honestly, what he is called means nothing as long as we see that he is put away for 20+years.

            Lets agree to all work for Justice for Trayvon. HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL!

            Sent from my iPod

      • boar_d_laze says:


        My “lesson” on Spanish pronunciation concerned “J” (pronounced “hota”) and not “G.” While I appreciate your instruction on pronunciation of the letter G (is this Plaza Sesamo?) it wasn’t relevant.

        FWIW, the letter “LL” also gets some regional variance (from “ellyay,” through “ellzhay” to “elljay” but that’s not relevant either.


        • cielo62 says:

          So your point is…? The point is that the names used here are not racist nor demeaning, although certainly not meant to show any respect. I don’t find anything written here re: GZ to be racist towards Hispanics.

          Sent from my iPod

      • Rachael says:

        @ jm

        “They substitute my name which begins with a J with a Y. ”

        I’ve never heard of that – for example, James in Spanish would be Jaime (pronounced Himay) – although Diego is also the Spanish equivalent of James.

        I have never heard of a y sound of a j.

        To L’s is a y sound though like cholla (pronounced choya) or me llamo (may yah mo).

        Anyway, thanks – I’ve never heard of that.

      • bettykath says:

        Another example of talking past each other. Most of the differences here are whether the person is speaking Spanish or the person is native Spanish speaker speaking English. In Spanish the J is pronounced as the English H. In English, the Spanish speaker pronounces the J as the English Y.

    • Malisha says:

      BDL, the term “Fogen” is not meant to demean George Zimmerman. It is meant to improve the quality of the world, and move us as humans closer to the possibility of peace with each other in perpetuity, by canceling out the memory of, and certainly the power in, the name given to that individual, which name would be unknown to us had he not purchased hollow-point bullets and loaded them into a gun, thereafter propelling one of those bullets into the heart and lungs of Trayvon Martin.

      In an earlier thread, a commenter pointed out that constant references to George Zimmerman by name were making him more and more significant in our consciousness and were actually adding to the already bad karma associated with him. At that point Professor posted an article dealing with this issue and gave a historical perspective. I chimed into that thread with the observation that in Hebrew/Jewish culture, when a person is considered negative, evil, etc., one follows any mention of his name with the sentence: “May his name be forgotten.” I shortened that to “Forget His Name” and shortened that further to “Fogen.” It is a way to refer to George Zimmerman while not using his name, not using a curse word (which also, unfortunately, bestows power) and saying, exactly: “We are talking about him but we do not want to preserve his influence upon our consciousness because of his evil deed.”

      It is a simultaneous self-cleansing we are performing when we call that person “Fogen.” What does it do to him? I don’t know. Frankly, I don’t give a damn. Had he killed Trayvon Martin and then felt bad about it, perhaps I would feel differently now. But for me to suffer more for the death of this unknown person (Trayvon Martin) than Fogen suffers for it, when he DID IT, is so unacceptable to me that I want the memory of Fogen erased, at some point in time, from my soul.

      I defend the name Fogen, as used to denote George Michael Zimmerman of Sanford, Florida and/or Manassas, Virginia.

      • sdunn5 says:

        What Malisha said!! Love your posts!!!

      • gbrbsb says:

        How beautiful Malisha! I was pretty sure “Fogen” wasn´t meant to demean or as a slur but I hadn´t quite realized it went as profound as that.

      • nemerinys says:

        The thing is, I want Zimmerman’s name to be remembered. I want it to be forever linked to problems with those whose concealed-carry gun gives them a feeling of power, the fraudulent use of self-defense claims, the concerns and mischief of SYG laws, and, most importantly, as the murderer of Trayvon Benjamin Martin.

        I use just that last name – Zimmerman – and, whenever I type it or see it in headlines, I do feel the anger, but I also feel tremendous contempt. No, I don’t want this swaggering poltroon to be forgotten.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Well, from the crimes we are reading about, it doesn’t matter what kind of language is actually in the SYG law. It is clear that the public does not understand it and are taking it the wrong way, which is why the increasing number of shooters are trying to take cover under it. Because they no longer understand their own responsibilities. The fact is, they feel that SYG gives them new and unbridled powers to shoot first and claim later, and go free on account of this law.

          So, it doesn’t matter much at all, whether the law actually allows it, because people will die because this law is misunderstood. Can’t expect these “gun toting geniuses” to read or understand the law. They are going to continue to be driven by rumors and anecdotes about the law. Only after someone is killed will their education begin.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        I too support the use of Fogen, since it can be applied to any mass murderer or other killer, to deny them the fame they might gain by having their name used all over the internet.

        Where, they can say to someone: “Google George Zimmerman” and see… But “Fogen” commentary won’t show up cutting down their notoriety.

      • Malisha says:

        “Only after somebody is killed will their education begin.”

        Their education only begins when somebody is arrested for murder. Then it progresses through the period when “somebody is tried for murder” and they graduate when “somebody is sentenced and serves time for murder.”

        Education. Never easy.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Not sure if “fogen” is “meant to demean”, at least not in a nasty or racial way. I missed its making but it started with comments on how merely saying GZ´s name gave him too much to much importance so, plays with “hewhosenameshallnotbespoken”, and “hewhosenameshallforeverbeforgot” started and “fogen” came about but I don´t know exactly what letters stand for.

      Agreed in respect of the “Ch” variations, but I can´t agree with “Jorge” because even if speaking Spanish if the person´s name is George then Jorge is wrong and unless among friends for a joke could be demeaning. IMO names should not be translated unless the subject agrees and as a Brit living in Spain most of my life I’ve had an earful of my name being translated even though it does’t have a direct translation! It should be banned, no angloparlante should refer to “King John Charles” and no hispanoparlante should refer to “Reina Isabel”, a really perfect example of why it is wrong because in English both Isabel and Elizabeth exist, even in French, but not in Spanish so Elizabeth and Isabel are translated the same, i.e. “Isabel” when they are not the same name at all.

    • gbrbsb says:

      BDL I forgot to note in my comment that I refer to him as GZ which is fairly traditional here in informal notes, comments etc. within companies, organizations, lawyers, etc.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Fogen= FOrGet his Name, so as not to immortalize defendant for committing what he did.
      Cheorge= his slurred pronunciation of his own name on NEN call
      Chorge= same as above

      Goal as set forth in prior posts is explicitly NOT to demean but to minimize repetition of defendant’s actual name so as to deny him immortality.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Within the context of their use in our discussions here I do not think the names “Cheorge” and “Chorge” are racist. As such, I disagree with you, Boar_d_laze. Having said that, I definitely respect the fact that the use of those names makes some of us here uncomfortable and would therefore urge others to desist from using them.

      HOWEVER, boar_d_laze, when Zimmerman stalked (first in his car and the on foot), “demeaned” and pursued (in Zimmerman’s own word) a “kid” who was running away from him (out of fear), confronted “this kid” and killed him by firing a ‘dumb-dumb-bullet’ straight into his heart while the kid begged him for his life, Zimmerman manifested the evil that is intrinsic in his (Zimmerman) nature. Some of us here still cannot understand that some humans are capable of what Zimmerman did. Personally, I do not see any difference between George Michael Zimmerman and the terrorist who captured Daniel Pearle (a NYT journalist) , bound his hands and feet and beheaded him while he begged for his life (!). Surely, you do understand the horror and disgust some of us feel. Surely, you can understand why some of us here feel uncomfortable/literarily sick writing/saying the name: “George Zimmerman” or “George” or “Zimmerman” and use ‘Fogen’ instead (and I believe Malisha has many days ago explained to you what is meant by that). There is nothing, IMO, “demeaning” about it (as you suggest). BUT, even if “Fogen” were to be demeaning in nature, you do agree with me that the use thereof is definitely covered by the First Amendment (which inter alia encompasses the right to criticize, offend, demean, etc.). Zimmerman is the sole defendant in a brutal murder case that has generated enormous public discourse on issues such as crime, law enforcement and equality under the law, race and race relations, gun control, etc. and divided the nation immensely. Within this context the full force of the First Amendment comes to bear. He (Zimmerman) has a right to fair trial BUT not to respect. Maybe you respect him. But I don’t. And I won’t.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Typo: “(first in his car and the on foot)”, should read : “(first in his car and then on foot)”.

      • Jun says:

        I agree. I feel that the defendant terrorized the kid. He was acting like he was Hitler, in the way he spoke to the kid, as if he had no rights whatsoever, and ran it like Hitler as a NW.

      • ladystclaire says:

        As far as I’m concerned, he doesn’t deserve any respect and, he will definitely not be getting any from me. I hate the looks of him as well as hearing and seeing his name. this thing is deserving of all of the disrespect coming his way now and in the future. he has earned all of the bad coming his way. when he leaves his prison cell, I hope he leaves feet first!

      • Dave says:

        I have absolutely no respect for the killer either but I think that all of this namecalling looks childish and seriously lowers the tone of the discussion. This started out as a serious examination of the facts and legal aspects of a murder case and has degenerated into a discussion of what silly nickname to apply to the defendant. I suggest that we either focus on the actual case or give our keyboards a rest.

    • cielo62 says:

      Respectfully, you should read the history of those names. FOGEN has to do with GZs name being forgotten. “Cheorge” is the way GZ says his own name. Honestly, GZ deserves the worst words in our lexicon. But Forgetting GZs name is an ancient curse, to remove the power of mentioning his name. The only racial slur would “whore-hay” which no one here uses. Catch up!

      Sent from my iPod

  61. colin black says:

    Groans I got that info re Lance Hudson ect via an article written in Orlando Sentinel by Rene Stutzman?Is that correct spelling of her name,,Yea she is back ..So in the comments section about tenth down is where I read the above comment from L Hudson..Like I said I have know idea whom he is or where his info came from.Sounds about par for the course to me given the grandiose delussion affecting anyone in zidiot camp…You asked for a link so I will try an oblige .Tenth comment down…

  62. colin black says:

    My point is if he said punks or goons why eddit it out of his law suite…Whilst not nice descriptors of anyone let alone someone you have never met so it his opinion…He is allegeing his state off hyper vigalence because of the crime wave hitting his wee gated retreat like a tsunammi..So whilst not nice uttering or more apt muttering either of those insults is hardly going to affect his law suit ie media company made me out as a raceist an Im so not…Didnt eddit out shit ..From the shit he s running Didnt editt out assholes from thease asshole always get away…No they only choose to edit out the raceial insult directed not only at Trayvon .But against an entire ethnic group the accused in his deluded phycie.Beleives are inferior or whith this whakjob who knows his reasoning.. Maybe he hates black youths because he is attracted to them an Its there fault I also heard an read the rumours that there were nubian porn sites allegedlly visited by the defendant .So by removeing this one portion from the text submitted in his law suite i m o its because it is a raceist statement….And would damage his chance of winning ..Or receiveing a ;large out of court settlement to drop the case is.In his deluded mind he envisiged happening..Why not he murdered an inocccent youth on his way home in a safe gated community.Murdered by a nw volanteer supposed to help protect residents by being eyes on not hands or guns drawn..After his kill strangers awarded him by posting hundreds of thousabds of dollars an he was famous.Why shouldnt some tv company also line my pockets..

    • Malisha says:

      Right. The strangest part of the interview (in my opinion) with Serino where “fucking punks” is mentioned is the part where Serino suddenly asks, in a parenthetical voice, “What was that you said?” and Fogen says, “Fucking punks,” and then Serino says, “That was not a punk.”

      Not Singleton, not Serino, not Hannity, not O’Mara, not a single person has ever (as far as I know having listened to the evidence dumps) has asked Fogen, “Now why would you call him a fucking punk long before he decked you?”

      And this: If you thought he was a fucking punk, you had every reason to suspect he might do bad things. You had every reason to suspect that one of those bad things might be dangerous or criminal — after all, you never can tell with fucking punks. But you chose to get out of your car and go running around where the fucking punk was on the loose. Go figure.

      • Jun says:

        Coons = racial slur

        Punks = what people call rape victims in prison

        either is not a nice thing to say

        and this was after him saying

        “a real suspicious guy, because he is walking around looking about, and when asked of the race, he looks black, and then he says he is suspicious because he is a black male walking around with his hands in his waist band?”

      • jm says:

        Malisha: “Not Singleton, not Serino, not Hannity, not O’Mara, not a single person has ever (as far as I know having listened to the evidence dumps) has asked Fogen, “Now why would you call him a fucking punk long before he decked you?”

        Good question and I hope the prosecution has the opportunity to ask it even if no one else did. I really want to know the answer as to why GZ categorized/profiled Trayvon as an effing punk and I really want to know why Singleton, Serino and Hannity didn’t follow up on GZ’s effing punk statement. I suspect O’Mara knows and he’s not talking on the grounds it will incriminate his client.

      • sdunn5 says:

        Thank you Malisha after listening to Serino/Singleton’s audio interview of fogen on 2-29 It warmed my heart to hear Serino say almost under his breath “That was not a f__king punk!!!

  63. Malisha says:

    I think the prosecutor put “fucking punks” into the affidavit of probable cause for the specific purpose of avoiding this whole controversy, so that in case five out of six people on a jury believed the word was “punks” instead of “coons” that wouldn’t make them think they had to acquit. Remember “If the glove doesn’t fit, you MUST ACQUIT”? It was false, of course. You could consider and actually are required to consider ALL the evidence but in high-profile trials, some people act like turkeys and all they can focus on is the shining, bright objects in their field of vision, so if it were alleged that he said “coons” but he said “punks,” some perhaps “mentally challenged Floridians” might think him innocent of all wrongdoing. Anyway, I don’t think it is measurably better to pick out a kid, call him a punk, and kill him than it is to pick out a kid, call him a coon and kill him.

    Imagine that this took place in Detroit. Imagine that a guy sets up a neighborhood watch and one night he sets out, allegedly to go buy food for his family, and instead, he kills an unarmed kid. Imagine that the armed guy who shot the unarmed kid was Black, as was his victim, as were all witnesses. Imagine the police interview the shooter at the station house that night and imagine he says that the kid jumped him right after he got off the phone with NEN, and was beating him so severely that he had to shoot. Imagine him going home that night without any charges being leveled at him; THAT is what we have to contend with. I’m willing to accept the idea that Fogen said, “Fucking punks” so we can concentrate on the part where he killed Trayvon Martin without justification. Killing someone because you think they’re a punk is just as bad, in my opinion, as killing them because you think they’re a “coon.”

    • Malisha says:

      If you’re “sugar-coating” coons to arrive at punks, you’re not using Organic sugar. You might be using artificial sweetener. It’s not going to come out right.

      RECIPE: How to properly sugar-coat “fucking coons”


      1 good story or 17 alternating non-credible stories
      1 ton ignorance
      4 cubic acres propaganda juice
      1,160 gullible fools or 110 gullible fools, each with lots of different sock puppet internet handles


      Each time something comes up, say something
      Do that for several months
      Get a family member to say and repeat something
      Do that over and over
      Have a bunch of Neanderthals set up a webpage and have the comments repeat and reemphasize any or all of the ridiculous stories over and over like a drumbeat at a parade of stupidity

    • boar_d_laze says:

      The jury doesn’t see the “affidavit of probable cause.” That’s only for the judge at the Arthur (charging, bail, etc.) hearing.

      • Rachael says:

        The jury does not see it, but considering O’Mara insists on trying this case on the internet, potential jurors might see it – which is, why I believe he is doing this.

    • whonoze says:

      Malisha, I think you’re right about why the prosecution went with “punks” instead of “coons”, though, in addition to the trial issues, they may also be making a political calculation that the assertion of “punks” will quell potential unrest.

      Nevertheless, he did say “coons.” I spent hours breaking down the phrase from the NEN call into its phonetic compenents, and comparing each one to other exemplars from the call. First of all, the vowel is unquestionably an “oo” not an “uh”. Second, the first consonant is definitely a “K,” as it displays the trailing ‘H’ GZ uses when saying his own name. Finally, there is definitely not a “K” audible at the end of the word. At full speed in context, the gestalt effect of how we hear can make it appear to be punks by the way the sounds interact with what comes before and after. But pulled out of that context, isolated and examined, its “k” “oo” “ns”.

      I think any competent dialogue editor from Hollywood could follow the same process i did, and testify definitive to what word was actually spoken, and how that can be demonstrated through the isolating and reassembling of phonemes.

      • whonoze says:

        I should have added that by claiming GZ said “punks,” the prosecution helps ensure that they will maintain control of the case, and deflects the potential of the Feds becoming involved in a hate crimes investigation.

      • Malisha says:

        Thanks. I didn’t do all that work but I had a weird experience with the tape. I’m not good at seeing but very good at hearing so I just listened to the tape over and over (probably 20 times). I heard “khoons.” Then somebody put up some kind of web-page that explained how it was “punks.” I listened to what they had put up and I heard “punks”! That may show more about how people respond to well designed arguments than about the actual sounds on the actual tape, and I have no evidence that person USED the actual tape — they could have created a new one just to put that web-page up, it’s not impossible.

        Right now, for purposes of understanding the tape, I have listened again and again and again, heard “khoons.” For purposes of analyzing how the case can go in court, I am agreeable to settling on “punks” because (a) once I thought I heard that, giving me “reasonable doubt”; and (b) it doesn’t matter; it displays animus and depraved mind. And Fogen has ADMITTED (to Serino) saying, “fucking punks.” Can’t back out of that one. (Frankly, I think he said “coons” and the reason I think so, independent of sound analysis, is that he admitted to saying “punks.” Had he said “punks,” I don’t think he would have admitted it; I think he would have said, “no, I said fucking shoes, my feet were hurting because those shoes aren’t good.”

  64. Malisha says:

    Whenever I realize that Fogen’s defense against having said “Fucking Coons” is that he said “Fucking Punks” I have another little laughing fit. Who ARE the “fucking punks”? People walking in the rain who don’t look like athletes? Is it a term of endearment because Fogen enjoys sex with punks and thus, dear people who like to have sex and are punks make him exclaim with endearment when he sees them? Fitting into a group Fogen describes as “fucking punks” is just as profiling as fitting into a group Fogen describes as “fucking coons” so who in the world cares which actual insult he enunciated in his exasperated whispered exclamation. He was angry that “those fucking whoevers” were not under his total control; he was angry that particular member of the class of “fucking whoevers” was “running.” He was gonna make sure the asshole didn’t get away.

    • ladystclaire says:

      And I pray everyday, that a jury of his peers don’t let his FAT funky ass get away! I hate the sight of this subhuman, who set out to kill this kid from the moment he laid eyes on him. reading your above comment, is it true that the FBI found evidence from his lap top of him visiting black male porn sites? IMO, joonyah might not be the only homosexual in that family. his little brother may just be a switch hitter.

      • Xena says:

        IMO, joonyah might not be the only homosexual in that family. his little brother may just be a switch hitter.

        Ladystclaire, if true why would GZ be ashamed of that unless Junior was made to feel ashamed for being gay, and maybe that’s the reason for the early sexual molestation of the cousin — trying to prove to himself at the age of 8 that he’s not a sissy. GZ knows his family secrets in the closet, because Osterman said they had been estranged, and it was only after GZ killed Trayvon did he and Junior start talking again.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, I think I was just asking a question concerning the talk that was going around a couple of months ago. some men can be bisexual and, I believe this thing is one of them. I also know all about his brother and he not having a speaking relationship for years and, they just started speaking again, when he was arrested for murdering Trayvon. there is a lot about this family that we don’t know and, we may never know. but, we all know he killed a child for no reason what so ever and, he is going to suffer for what he has done. btw, something still tells me that there is something about him, that says he is like his older brother.

      • Malisha says:

        That report of the FBI finding homosexual porn sites on Fogen’s computer was a hoax. It lasted about three days or something. Once you’re known that well, of course, there will be those hoaxes and speculations all around. Hmmmm, wonder why Fogen doesn’t sue whoever first printed THAT?

    • Jun says:

      He said it after calling Trayvon an asshole who always gets away, a black male with his hands in his waistband so he is suspicious because of that, he is suspicious because he is walking in the rain, he looks black, he’s check him out, shit he’s running, he always gets away

      so even if he did say punks, which I cant honestly tell if its coons or punks, but it sounds like it could be coons

      he’s suspicious for being a black teenager walking in the rain, he’s looking at the houses, he’s got his hand in his waist band…. not my words, Fogenhats words

  65. Xena says:

    Reminder: If you have not yet signed the Christmas card to Trayvon’s family, please do so. It will be “sent” to them on Monday.

  66. colin black says:

    N B C Cannot edit transcript or audio to allegedly make gz raceist.However its not double standards or hypcopricy for gz al his legal team to alter the transcript an edit out the frakkin khoons whisper to make it apear he is not raceist..They must realise that through this course of action ..In editting out that phrase.Its an admission of guilt that he did utter Fn khoons.As he lied to Serrino an whispered Fn Punks .Why eddit it out ?FN pUNKS IS IN NO WAY NO SHAPE GOING TO BE CONSTRUED AS A RACEIST REMARK….Ooops sorry bout the caps .In summation i m o Editing out his whispered comment is admitting he made a racial slur against Trayvon.Even more evidence of his arrogance an utter stupiditty ah mean COME ON….

  67. colin black says:

    I dont know whom this person Lance Hudson is but I like his thinking………………..Lance Hudson …. Zimmerman’s web of lies is backfiring on him.

    The head of the security company, Mr. Rumbaugh, explains that Zimmerman requested far more security than necessary, utilizing surveillance, counter-surveillance, vehicle exchanges, costume changes in handicapped bathroom stalls, etc. Zimmerman’s wife, Shellie, demanded 2 security guards at all times. Those overkill measures made no sense from a security point of view. In retrospect, we can see that Zimmerman was fraudulently inflating his expenses in preparation for his bogus lawsuit against NBC where he will no doubt argue that it’s NBC’s fault that these unneeded security measures were ordered (but never paid for, heh heh).

    Speaking of Zimmerman’s lawsuit against NBC, as you know Zimmerman is alleging that NBC edited his call to police in order to make him look like a racist. But ironically, bloggers have now revealed that Zimmerman’s own lawyers edited out his infamous words “f**king ****s” from the transcript in the lawsuit in order to make him look like he’s NOT a racist. So according to Zimmerman, it’s wrong for NBC to edit, but not for him!!!!!

    All of the truth will be revealed and Zimmerman’s lies, fraud and deceit will come to light. I mean, we knew he was a murderer but now we see he’s also a scam artist and crook.

    When the time comes, it will be very easy for Judge Nelson to impose a life sentence on this dirtbag

  68. colin black says:

    blushedbrown says:

    December 22, 2012 at 11:53 am

    Excellent post, Colin
    ………………..Oh thanks …

  69. grahase says:

    Now that we have survived the December 21, 2012 apocalypse, I think the so-called civilized nations need to rethink their strategies. The Thugboat made the Top 10 GQ magazine Least Influential list. To me, his name is getting way too much publicity. I believe Trayvon will be on the 10 Most-Influential people someday. His murder sparked the debate about gun control and the new form of old racism. I believe there will be change, this time.

    To all who post and to all who read said posts, I wish you all the best for this Holiday season and during the new year.

    2013 is THE time for Humanity to come to terms with itself. I am a Canadian and am begging you to keep the focus on Gun Control. Focus on the Guns. Canada has the same percentage of citizens with mental health issues, the same movies, the same video games, but we do not have guns. Please, do not assign blame to anything other than firearms.

    Gun deaths in Canada are generally gang or drug related with illegally obtained guns.

    Stop the violence. Love your neighbours more than you love your guns.

    Thank you for reading my plea.

    • grahase says:

      I forgot to add – religion or lack thereof to my list of distractions.

      • i agree with focusing on the gun and not mental illness. i’m sick and tired of hearing ‘ awww, how sad, he was sick. how come his mom let guns in the house?’ i don’t care if his mom gave him a million guns. she didn’t tell him to go out and shoot up the school. the fact that she got shot by her own son using her gun is her punishment. but the idiot shot the school up simply because he’s a killer. not because he was mental or because his mom gave him a gun. That’s just bullshit.

        i just know we aren’t getting rid of guns in this country because it’s a sort of a symbolic representation of being American, and it’s out dated as hell, but it is what it is.
        so the focus should be making sure that people who have criminal records – even if charges have been dismissed for completing some court ordered anger management class is still a record.
        GZ had two huge BRIGHT RED FLAGS that should have prevented him from ever getting a gun permit: arrest for violence and restraining orders for violence.
        both of those are legal bases for denying him a gun permit. a 3 year delay period isn’t good enough for this kind of person. waiting for it was probably making him crazy just thinking about the day he could finally get *his right* back! It’s obvious he has self control problems. you don’t change your personality in 3 years. especially when it comes to criminal violence he was never held accountable for. if anything getting a permit was a sort of validation to him. since he *can* carry a gun then to him the state just sanctioned his behavior and gave him licence to do it.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @shannoninmiami, this thing fogen had his criminal record expunged and, IMO if a person has a charge of violence on their criminal record such as he had, I don’t think they should be able to have those crimes removed. his crimes were in no way minor incidents and, they should have never been wiped off of his record. this should apply to everybody and, then maybe there wouldn’t be quite so many people with violent behavior being able to own a gun or receiving a CCW permits. there is entirely to much gun violence in this country.

    • Malisha says:

      Great post, Grahase.

  70. Malisha says:

    Hmmmm, I wonder if NBC should file an anti-SLAPP suit against FogenZim. Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation. Hmmmm.

  71. Judy75201 says:

    I was unable to see recent activity on this thread and also unable to post. It had me very worried, and I am delighted to know now it was just a glitch. Wishing Fred & Cranestation the happiest of holidays!

  72. Hi!!!I missed you guys!! 🙂

    OK, i was just watching this show called Top 20 Most shocking shit caught on video. Today it’s about top losers in love or whatever. Its funny so i’m laughing and i look up and i see exactly HOW Trayvon got the scratch on the* Inside * of his ring finger and above the knuckle!

    BTW. Omar needs to stop waving his stupid hand in the air and Lieing in court and TV, accusing Trayvon of having cuts on his knuckles.What an amazing blatant lie!

    In a video of a drunk Russian guy being escorted to jail i think i saw exactly how Trayvon got the scratch from GZ!! These Russian cops were not tough or aggressive really. But the guy was a little unstable and needed some light encouragement by the two cops.
    They didn’t use hand cuffs, they didn’t even look like they had guns, kinda like england. Instead one went to grab the drunk guy by the hand, and when he did the guy tried to take his hand away. So the cop used one hand to hold his arm and the other went to twist the drunk guy’s hand to keep hold on him. While he did his hand slipped and i saw how his nails would have scratched the inside of the drunk guy hand!

    When he finally got a firm grip on the drunk guys wrist and got control he pulled it behind his back and made him walk. I froze when i saw that and my face went hot, and i know this is how Trayvon got scratched.

    Then, right after the show ‘Cops’ came on and i swear, i watched them chase down 2 teenagers who were stealing and that’s when i saw how the cops brought those boys down to the ground. It was so scary seeing the cop holding the *Screaming* kid face down with one knee on his back and twisting his arm up behind his back! These cops were rough, but they were on camera so they probably kept their cool.
    But to me it’s now so obvious how the POS was manhandling Tray and it makes it clear why there was that scratch on the inside of his finger and why he was screaming in pain and fear.

    and who keeps saying “GZ gets more hate-able everyday”? cas they are so freaking dead on!

  73. colin black says:

    enigma?? sorry spelling is not my 40 ..

  74. colin black says:

    Glad to hear an read your comments Cherokee Native missed you …Happpy End of The World is it here yet?

  75. colin black says:

    Both LMPappas recent vts put into sharp focous the gravitas of the accuseds predicament…He is flat out busted ..I also forgot about the..You gotta peice your gonna doe version..Even on the now infamous Hannatty interveiw..When talking about his need to shoot he says …It wasnt my gun .It wasnt his gun.It was just thee gun…I think thats the gist of what he says.An his entire reason for shooting Trayvon besides the life threating boo boos .Is because Trayvon knew he had a weapon.gun.H e either saw it .Or reached for it .rz JUNIOR..States or is it Ostterman there was an actuall grapple for the gun wich the defendant won.In his re enactment accuses states TRAYVON was reaching down his body towards the gun ..An yet a couple of sentances later after he shooots him one time…Suddenlly the accused is informing us that Trayvon infact has only just become of the weapon because he heard the bang when he fired it.Or as the accused would say discharged my weapon…..He sat up an said you got me you got it.And I thought he was saying I give up I know you have a weapon now ,I didnt even think Id hit him….Mmm he onlly knew he had a weapon after he shot.An yet the reason he had to shoot him was to stop him gaiining accsesss to thee gun..As Winston Churchill would say that stoty is ….An Inigma wrapped in a riddile encased in a contradiction.An burried in selfserveatude bs……………….

  76. colin black says:

    ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    December 21, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    Well remember the first thing he did was pay off all of their debt. That must have made him happy. Here is a link to what he did with all that money, but of course we don’t know for sure how much he is still getting or has gotten since in donations.

    Click to access First-Supplemental-Discovery-6-1-12_R.pdf

    How much of the 1,000,000 bond did he have to actually pay
    ..That wouldnt have maade him happy at all.In fact would have depressed the heck out of him..Ive met a few gz in my time an they refuse to adhere to the custom of paying bills..They move from adress to adress running up bills in rent utillitys ect often set up loans or get goods overr the internet or catalouges bounce checks right an left .An when the heat gets on an red reminders start arriveing the bailiffs turn up an they have moved on to pastures new to start all over again..They detest haveing to pay for anything no matter how small..FFS gz even calls the cops on his landlord when he had the audacity to ask for rent same thing on the guy hired to work at his non graduation party…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………He was awarded 16 grand in a court settlement an stiffed the lawers firm that won it for him for 4 thousand..Beleive you me gz haveing to part with that money to pay his back bills .Would have caused him more greif than murdering an innocent youth TRAYVON…..I once cornered a tightwad opertunist whom owed me money.An I made sure I got him in a situation where he had cash on his person .An I wasnt takeing no for an answer..It was about 370 pounds/700 dollars.An he started crying as he was parting with the money as I f I was takeing his children away

    • Malisha says:

      Colin B, that’s an important point about Fogen. When that money came in, he did not think it was fair that he would have to use it for a bond. He thought, since he was done wrong, that he should be let go on his own recognizance — after all, he was a decent American! He was a Neighborhood Watch Captain and a graduate of Associates Degree in Criminal Justice, how dare they require a bond from him! AND he earned that money fair and square by showing others like him how heroic he had been and how everybody was conspiring against him. It’s not FAIR for him to have to pay bond, pay lawyers, etc. All he did was shoot a thug! For the first time in his life people were recognizing him for the hero he WAS and along comes this unfair judge, motivated by anti-white racism (huh?) and tries to take his money! He had to fight that injustice! If you don’t fight injustice, you just aren’t being a good red-blooded (oops) American. ❗

    • blushedbrown says:

      Excellent post, Colin.

  77. colin black says:

    Thats brillliant LMPappa fogen contadicts himself tottaly telling the story of the shooting..He felt he saw the gun reached down towards it. An yet after he shot him Trayvon suddenly has no prior knowlage of the gun..I missed that contradictin tottaly I hope the defence hasnt.At least they wont when someone shows this to Bernie. ..Does it piss anyone else of fogens tone of voice when he describes shooting Trayvon .Nocholant uncareing mimmiliseing the event.No big deal ..I reached for my gun Shot him ..slight pause for efect..One time..As if he was doing Trayvon a favour by not emptying a full clip of 6 or 7 shots……..Into his heart..

    • Rachael says:

      I know. I mean, if I had shot someone – even if it HAD been in self-defense (which in the case of GZ it was NOT) I don’t think I could retell the taking of another human life without crying, no matter how “justified” it was, and if I had to reenact the scene just the very next day, I would still be very shaken about the whole thing.

      GZ – not a care in the world. Not bothered in the lease.

      • Rachael says:


      • Cercando Luce says:

        Doesn’t ever pay his lease. Doesn’t honor obligations. Not for attorney, not for rented home, not for caterer, not for bodyguard, not for student loan, not for human decency.

      • Dennis says:

        I believe most police officers have to see a therapist after using their weapon in the field, especially after shooting and killing someone. Anyone who has a conscience will be traumatized from killing a person. Voldemort’s interview on SH proved that he does not have a conscience. It upset me so much every time he chuckled that I wanted to reach into the television and strangle him. Not even a single tear was shed for

        Voldemort is also way too calm for a person that may be going to prison for the rest of his life.

    • Xena says:

      Thats brillliant LMPappa fogen contadicts himself tottaly telling the story of the shooting

      Because GZ said he wasn’t sure if he actually shot Trayvon is why the State should add the charge that they tried and convicted Alexander for. GZ fired a gun in a residential district and he said that he saw residents come out on their patio. He gave no concern for where the bullet went and jumped on Trayvon’s back to purportedly restrain him. In the least, the State should add that charge on jury instructions along with the lesser charge of manslaughter.

      • Jun says:

        They can add that charge later on. I think it is more important to argue the murder charge first.

      • aussie says:

        No, the other residents were totally safe.

        ” He gave no concern for where the bullet went”……. YES HE DID… he aimed straight at the heart from a distance at which it was impossible to miss.

        That’s not firing a gun in a residential district. That’s Murder 1.

        • Xena says:


          That’s not firing a gun in a residential district. That’s Murder 1.

          True, but we should hold GZ to his word and his actions in this matter.

      • gbrbsb says:

        @ aussie
        Agree with Aussie, the fact he aimed, his own words, and even had the time, control and calculated thinking to make sure it wasn´t going to hit his hand, points more and more to murder 1. However, that said, it would be a huge burden for the state to prove so it´s probably best they stick to murder 2.

      • yup. add those extra 10 years to the back end of his life sentence so he’s guarenteed a new husband every decade:)

      • Dennis says:


        His 2nd degree murder charge carries a maximum sentence of life in prison which means he will never get out. No point in upgrading the charge to 1st degree. It will be nice to see him rot in prison and never be allowed to have a child.

        • Xena says:

          His 2nd degree murder charge carries a maximum sentence of life in prison which means he will never get out. No point in upgrading the charge to 1st degree.

          I didn’t suggest that the charge be upgraded to 1st degree murder. Rather, I suggested that the State add the alternative lesser charge of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. If convicted, that charge carries a statutory sentence of 20 yrs. That is the charge that Marissa Alexander was found guilty of for firing a gun into the house without intentions of shooting anyone.

          In the same manner, GZ said he didn’t know if he had actually shot Trayvon, yet he fired in a residential area where residents were home, and showed no concern for where the bullet went and instead, jumped on Trayvon’s back to restrain and frisk him.

          In Florida, an “aggravated assault” is an assault:
          (a) With a deadly weapon without intent to kill; or
          (b) With an intent to commit a felony.

      • sdunn5 says:

        I thought I read some time ago that Florida has a Murder 3. If anyone knows if that is true and what it would consist of. I remember finding it odd, and I am too Z saturated to research it.

      • gblock says:

        Is 3rd degree murder equivalent to what is called manslaughter in many states?

      • sdunn5 says:

        Thanks Xena!!

      • bettykath says:

        One of the posts that tried to identify the background noises on the NEN call found two different sounds near the end of the call. One seems to be the banging of his flashlight, the other sounds a lot like he’s doing something with his gun. If the latter is true, he pulled his gun before he went hunting. This would make it Murder 1. I don’t advocate going for Murder 1, but I think that’s what it was.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yes, it’s in the NeN call near the end, when he’s supposedly turned to go back to his truck you can hear the distinct difference in the sounds of him knocking on something, presumably the flashlight, and the kind of “spring loading” sound of a gun being wracked. IIRC there’s a long sound and a short sound, both have the reverberations you’d expect of spring loaded metal on metal, and it compares well with other tapes of the sound of a kel tec 9 being wracked.

          The problem is, the sound of the knocking on the flashlight is just too intertwined with the wracking sounds, so, unless we envision GZ having more than two hands, his flashlight and phone account for the only two he has. Then the simplest explanation is that there is someone very close by wracking the gun or a gun, either his gun or Shelly’s. To me, I’d imagine MO performing a last minute weapons check for GZ and then handing the gun back. He’d know enough to used gloved hands for sure. Even though MO could easily account for his trace on the weapon, because of his frequent shooting sessions with GZ.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      That man lives in la-la land.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Methinks you may have committed an error here because we better hope the prosecution doesn´t MISS this wonderful, yet another, GZ contradiction, because even if the defence didn´t miss it but spotted it I doubt they´d want to draw attention to it!

    • Rachael says:

      As with most lies, there might be some truth mixed in – like when GZ pulled the gun on Trayvon, he may have put his arms up and said (or thought) I know you have a gun, I’m giving up and GZ STILL shot him, that is no longer self-defense, even *if* Trayvon was oh so brutally beating him (gahhhh).

      Anyway, this is probably where Trayvon was crying, begging and pleading and GZ can be heard interrogating.

      This should be 1st degree murder!!!!!

      • Rachael says:

        Sigh – correction:

        ***even *if* Trayvon was oh so brutally beating him (gahhhh).

        That should read even *if* Trayvon had been . . . as in prior to putting his arms up.

      • Dennis says:

        It is ridiculous how Voldemort had to use additional scenarios (ex. Martin trying to grab the gun) to justify his use of self-defense. It went from “Oh I’m getting my head pounded in” to “He was trying to grab the gun” to “It was God’s plan”. Somewhere along the lines he knew his concrete bashing/MMA fight story would not hold water and he added additional scenarios to further support his use of deadly force. The deadly assault and the reaching for the gun never happened because there is not a shred of evidence to support either scenario.

    • Xena says:

      Get him LLMPapa. Gethimgethimgethim. Get George Zimmerman.

    • gbrbsb says:

      And what about the version, don´t know what interview etc. where he says Trayvon said:
      “you gotta piece… your´re going to die tonight motherfucker”

      • Diane Trotter says:

        It’s amazing that he claims to “mentor” Black kids and knows nothing of the jargon teenagers, regardless of race, use today. He probably watched “I’m Gon Git You Sucka” or “Blackula” from back in the day and came up with this stuff. I teach kids 5 days a week and communicate with them on Facebook 7 days a week. No self-respecting teenager would say this stuff. Maybe he figured white people would believe it. White parents, teachers, youth leaders, etc., have got to know this is ridiculous.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      That evil horrible psychopath. That evil, EVIL horrible psychopath. And the video doesn’t even contain his “I fired one shot.” *Pause* *Smirk-shrug*

    • jm says:

      Great point. What a bunch of BS. No wonder Serino didn’t believe him. On top of this, it is the day after he received the “beating” that caused him to “fear for his life” and he has sissy bandages on that Serino knew weren’t necessary because of the nature of the surface lacerations.and GZ is moving with no problem. He is incredibly nonchalant about aiming a gun and shooting a kid in the heart the day before. GZ is a lying sociopath.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Dear Mr. O’Mara:

      I hope this letter finds you in good health. I’ve been reading the blogs and I can’t understand why they don’t believe me. I told them I forgot that I was carrying the gun that I always carried everywhere I go, except work. They don’t believe it. Look, it’s easy to forget that you have a 1.5 lb gun on your hip, most especially when you’ve taken great pains to find the most deadly ammunition you can load it with, and have loaded it to the hilt. Why can’t they accept that?

      I know some minor mistakes were made the bond hearing, but I don’t see how that should have any bearing on what occurred that night, when Trayvon gave me that terrible life threatening beating, to within an inch of my life. Doesn’t all the blood he drew prove anything at all? I mean, look at me, I’m just one bloody pulp! Obviously the medic washed the blood off his body and took his clothing to the laundry before the police could collect the evidence, how else can they explain that he had no blood left on his hands?

      Many strange things happened out there that night. Not the least of which is how Trayvon’s six or eight hands managed to disappear, before the witnesses could see them. Things were just working against me that night. Even the police were out there messing with the evidence and the witness testimony, so why doesn’t anyone believe me? It’s probably your fault because you just aren’t the lawyer you think you are. You can’t even convince the SP that Trayvon was a dangerous thug who, armed with deadly iced tea and a fatal package of skittles, was a threat to the lives of everyone in the entire neighborhood, not just me. They should be holding parades for me for saving their very lives from this terrible super thug.

      Now, if you are a lawyer, I demand that you prove it, get the judge to take this thing off my leg and get the bondsmen to give me back my money so I can go somewhere safe. If not, I’m going to have to start firing people starting with you.

      George M. Zimmerman (A Decent American)

      • Judy75201 says:

        Great letter!

      • Dennis says:

        I almost forgot that hollow-points are prohibited from being used by the military internationally. It is silly that we still use bombs even though a hollow-point bullet is called cruel and inhumane. Hollow-points are used by law enforcement mainly because there is a much lower chance of the bullet hitting any bystanders. Since Voldemort shot and killed an innocent teenager, it would be safe to assume he did not choose hollow-points to prevent the harm of any innocent people nearby. He bought them for stopping power and the fact that they burst apart from the impact. There is a much higher chance of death from someone being shot from a hollow-point because vital organs will be hit with the shrapnel. Any competent gun owner going into law enforcement knows this. If he had to use his weapon, he wanted that person to die.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          That is exactly what I mean when I say that he had specifically purchased hollow points for his gun. He knew that he had turned an already deadly weapon, into an “Especially” Deadly weapon. From one that could kill, to one that was almost certain to kill, if and when fired.

          Along with that extra deadliness, comes an awareness of the need for extra special concern. As in, a weapon loaded with hollow point bullets, should not be fired at someone, if there exists the slightest doubt that can or will kill you if they are not shot.

          GZ had no reason to believe that an unarmed late teen could kill with only his bare hands, even if such a child could draw blood! Therefore, he should not have fired his ESPECIALLY DEADLY WEAPON, at dubiously “deadly” attack, even if it was actually being waged. Because, without a firearm, no reasonable person could believe that a late teen’s bare handed assault could be deadly at all. It only makes matters worse to know, the evidence shows that attack never happened at all.

          Finally, you do not scream for help, at the top of our lungs, while you are questioning someone. GZ asking questions is heard on the 911 tape. He is loud enough to be picked up by a phone nearly 20 feet or more away.

      • racerrodig says:

        Mr . Zimmerman 12/23/2012

        While it may seem that things were not very clear that night, and admittedly there was a lot of confusion, may I point out that even though you may have forgotten you were armed that night, that is no excuse. I really wish you had informed me at some point in April that you did not in fact, have a valid permit for your pistol.

        Since this a stumbling block that may be impossible to clear, along with the fact that you called Mr. Martin a “fucking coon” not to mention an “…asshole…” who always gets away, and followed him for some time prior to his death, I do not appreciate the comment you made “…you just aren’t the lawyer you think you are.’ Remember, it was you who came to me in desperation when Sonner & Uhrig terminated the relationship for your failure to communicate.

        It is not as easy as you may think to scare a Judge into granting everything we need. For the record.I am Lawyer recognized by the Florida Bar and I have some certificate on the wall to prove it. I also do not appreciate the continued references to Ronald Hughes Esq. who as we know, was the attorney for Charles Manson who disappeared before his trial began.

        As far as any parade in your honor, that was a possibility until you started telling more than one version of your side of the events that night. There is one internet poster who continually states in jest and I quote “Mr. Zimmerman, you have the right to remain silent” and the response that this person gives is actually accurate. It is “……….um, ok, but why would I do that, I have so many more versions to tell you”

        In addition to that, your reenactment has some serious flaws as pointed out by the prosecution and common sense. Can you have the same computer tech who altered the pictures that we said were taken that night remove all of LLMPapa’s videros ? It seems that if the prosecutions views any of these and uses the information from them to bolster their claim of 2nd Degree Murder, I may need to recommend a plea bargain. Now I know how you get agitated about that topic, but just think about that.

        My staff are reading these blogs and I must say, the people who call themselves “Team Trayvon” are having a far greater influence on a potential jury pool than your family and friends. They have even determined who’s names you dad, brother and friends are using and it is not helping.

        Needless to say, when you and Shellie lied to Judge Lester about how much money you had and even though I went along with the 2nd passport bit, That didn’t help your credibility. By the way, are there any more interviews scheduled ? I firmly believe you need to retract or at least rephrase the “skipping” aspect and use a word such as “…jogging..” instead.

        The fact that there have been murders in everything from schools to movie theaters since your unfortunate incident in which guns were used does not help in any event.

        I have sent you an Invoice which is number GZ3DH1 and I am hoping the full amount can be sent to my office before Christmas as I have shopping to do as do you.

        Tell the family to hang in there and please try to stay off the internet.

        Mark O’ Mara

  78. esentrick says:

    LLMPapa is a genius! I really needed that laugh. Please check out LLMPapa new vid (sorry do not know how to placed the video here)

    Thanks LLMPapa!

  79. Malisha says:

    Here’s a little info on that voice-stress test stuff:

    Basically, it does not detect lies. It detects STRESS.

    With someone like Fogen, who feels stressed when he’s telling the TRUTH (if ever he DOES), it will not detect lies. If you were to ask Fogen the following questions you might hear some stress:

    Did it occur to you when you were on the phone with NEN that they really thought you were a wuss?

    Aren’t you ashamed that a 17-year-old kid with no bouncer training was able to subdue you and dominate you for more than two minutes while all your wuss-ass could do was scream help?

    Did you think you were a qualified NW captain if you couldn’t even make it out of an encounter with a candy-carrying kid without massive injuries and close to death?

    Don’t you realize you’re ugly and your mother dresses you funny?

    Are you scared of prison, Cheorge?

    Did Shellie dump you, Cheorge?

    What’s the reason Shellie never got pregnant, Cheorge?

    Cheorge, did you ever French-kiss a man?

    Does it make you feel good when you lie on the bed with a kid under 12?

    THEN you’d see some stress, NOT from lying. Lying doesn’t cause Fogen ANY stress if he thinks he’ll get away with it.

  80. colin black says:

    Just watched Daves new vt an it coclussivelly proves fogen could have returned to his truck before he had even ended his convestion with the disspatcher..If as he has said often he went to ttl for an adress lingred a short time about turned still talkin to dispatch .Of course not only would he have made it back to his truck before he ended his call.He would also have been attacked by Trayvon before he ended his call.This is if we beleive his version of events an movements..Even his own attempt at mittigating /excuseing .justifying his neeed to shoot his time line is whak.Doesnt fit with his non emergancy call.An is further proof as if any were requred that he is an atroucious arrogant liar.Whom holds us in contempt m o o…………ps an LMPappa Im speechless we all knew the blood flow direction proves his story of being pinned below Trayvon was a crock.But you reveal the immpossability of his claims beutifully..Even a dolt like him cant fail to see.Im sure if we post a copy of your film to gzlegal site.He cant fail to see the gravity of his predicament..Thanks for all you do for Trayvon and his loved ones……….

    • Jun says:

      Geography, timing, credibility, dna, physics, science, biology, witnesses, audio, video, psychological profile, and more

  81. colin black says:

    Xena has frank taffe been sendin you emails?

  82. Malisha says:

    I bet he’s not giving them Christmas tips either. Probably he’s giving each of them an autographed THANK YOU card.

    Yeah. He wanted that ankle bracelet off before his body-guards quit, didn’t he?

  83. colin black says:

    Xena perhaps you were a dog in another incarnation..All dogs are drawn to fire hydrants…

    • Xena says:

      Xena perhaps you were a dog in another incarnation..All dogs are drawn to fire hydrants…

      LOL! Well, I’ve been called a female dog but never a male dog, so I guess that’s a compliment. 🙂

  84. Rachael says:

    My my – isn’t this interesting?

    I haven’t checked it out yet, but passing it along.

    Tre Anthony
    63 Fans Become a fan
    38 minutes ago ( 5:10 PM)
    A security company has filed suit against murder suspect George Zimmerman, his wife and attorney, Mark O’Mara, accusing them of failing to pay $27,000 for bodyguards. Associated Investigative Services filed suit in state circuit court in Orange County.

    It alleges it’s due the money for protecting Zimmerman and his wife, Shellie. O’Mara has said for months that a legal defense fund fed by Internet PayPal donations is running low. Last month, Zimmerman announced plans to ramp-up fund-raising, writing in a blog post that he would now start sending autographed thank you cards to donors. It’s not clear if that effort, along with a revamped and updated webpage, has boosted giving.

    So far, conned donors have contributed an estimated $340,000 to Zimmerman.

    Details about the lawsuit against Zimmerman, his wife and O’Mara can be found at this link:

    Lawsuits filed in court must list the last known address of each party, so I have sent a couple folks down to the courthouse in Orange County to track that information down. And once they obtain it, it will be circulated as a matter of public record.

    • Malisha says:

      HAHA!! I believe Fogen is having his family members stash the money away offshore so he can make a run for it. As in “sh*t, he’s running”!

      This way, he fails to pay for everything, he squirrels the money away, O’Mara keeps everybody running around with motions, and one of these days, UH OH Fogen’s missing and the signals from his ankle are scrambled or blocked or gee whizz bang the cops just can’t figure out what the signals mean or the video isn’t working or something —

      It’s about $350 for a forged passport. Less than that for a disguise. Over the border to Mexico — Fogen speaks Spanish.

      THEN they’ll all say it happened because the New Black Panthers threatened him again. He had to run to protect Shellie. Or, if Shellie has already run…

      • Xena says:

        I think that all 1,156 people who signed the “malicious prosecution” petition should send GZ one dollar, and request that an autographed thank you card be sent to an address in another country. (snicker)

      • Jun says:

        since most Zimmernuts each have 10 profiles, it is more likely 116 signatures, minus another 20 for the joke signatures

      • bettykath says:

        My bet is Cuba.

        On a tv show the guy took the ankle bracelet off and put it on a cat. The cat’s movement made it look like the guy still had it on while he went out the fire escape.

      • gbrbsb says:

        “My bet is Cuba.”

        No way Cuba would give him asylum, no way!

    • grahase says:

      Okay – Fogen hasnt paid the lawyers. He hasnt paid the security company.

      What exactly has he been paying. Of $340,000.00, he paid 100,000.00 for bail.

      $240,000.00 divided by how many months!!!!

      Food and shelter and other comforts of home. Give me a break! He is hoarding it and getting ready to bolt, IMO

      • Xena says:

        It should please GZ’s supporters to know that their donations paid for Papa Zim to have security to the airport. That’s living expenses and legal defense, right?

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Well remember the first thing he did was pay off all of their debt. That must have made him happy. Here is a link to what he did with all that money, but of course we don’t know for sure how much he is still getting or has gotten since in donations.

        Click to access First-Supplemental-Discovery-6-1-12_R.pdf

        How much of the 1,000,000 bond did he have to actually pay?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          As a general rule the bonds man want’s a 10% fee, then collateral to cover the rest. My guess is that the Zimmerman family didn’t have 900k in collateral, in which case the bonding Co., will want additional cash to cover their risk. So he could have easily been required to give the bond company the entire 250k remaining. Of course, since this is a high profile case, the bond co could safely take less. My guess is they probably charged around 150k for the million dollar bond, plus whatever collateral the family had to pledge.

      • Jun says:

        he paid a bond company 10% with no collateral

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          No collateral? I guess the bonds man was eager to get a hold of that fee, it isn’t everyday he comes to work and collects 100k. Also, he probably believes that GZ is so high profile, he’d have little chance of escaping.

      • grahase says:

        I thought Mom and Dad had their own website. And, by the way, how is Junior able to flit country-wide without visible means of support. He has said he lost his job.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Could Ma & Pa Zim have put their house up for collateral? Wonder if it was one of the more expensive homes in that area…could be worth a lot.

      • Jun says:

        Well if Zimmernuts Fogenhats bails on the trial…

        The bond company is out 1 million… until they catch him


        The bond company will want to put the Shaolin Tiger claw on his behind if the defendant bails

    • Xena says:

      And once they obtain it, it will be circulated as a matter of public record.

      Now, now Rachael, don’t be malicious. 🙂 Chances are that since GZ is represented by legal counsel, O’Mara was served with the summons at his office.

      • Rachael says:

        I didn’t write that – the entire thing was copied from another site – that was a comment the poster who posted it left.

        • Xena says:

          I didn’t write that – the entire thing was copied from another site – that was a comment the poster who posted it left.

          Okay. Then they can be malicious. 🙂

    • Xena says:

      From the news article:

      But soon after an independent trustee took over Zimmerman’s defense fund, the payments stopped coming, AIS alleges.

      Everything is not paradise with the independent trustee. If it happens to be a member of GZ’s family, there could be a plan about for his escape from justice.

      • gblock says:

        Is O’Mara the independent trustee?

        • Xena says:

          @gblock, I doubt that O’Mara is the independent trustee. He wasn’t previously. I suspect it would have to be someone who is not on the State’s witness list, although Junior is the voice in the media crying about threats and lack of money. Kinda telling that GZ is displeased with O’Mara not being able to convince people to give more money. I wonder how those autographed thank you cards are working for him?

          • Diane Trotter says:

            The whole autograph thing sounds arrogant, callous, and remorseless (clumsy word). How could MOM even allow him to do something so stupid?

          • racerrodig says:

            you can quote me. “They are more Hateable every day”

    • Jun says:

      What happened the last time the defendant said he was broke?

      I do not feel the security company will buy the “broke murderer” story because of what happened in court

    • Jun says:

      He’s hiding money again

      They said he had $340,000

      but now he is suddenly broke?

      yes, and the world ended today too LOL

      • Xena says:

        They said he had $340,000

        That’s in total since April. At $7,000 a week for security, he couldn’t leave his safe house, so security made grocery and toilet paper runs, took GZ’s parents places, took GZ to O’Mara’s office and depositions, and probably walked the dogs too.

      • Jun says:

        I have never got why he even truly needed security

        No one is going to attack him

        The state of Florida and the federal government is already putting their footprints into his culo, so there is no need for anyone to do anything to him

        I believe people want him to actually experience prison and taking his life would take that away from everyone

      • grahase says:

        I tend to disagree. There are some that do not trust the justice system in the State of Florida. There are also alot of nuts with guns. There are probably some that would off him for the newsworthiness and infamy it comes with. If I were him, I would be very afraid.

      • LOL Jun,”su culo” ! LOL!

        Feliz Navidad!

    • Way ToF’en GO Rachael!! Awesome!!
      “So far, conned donors have contributed an estimated $340,000 to Zimmerman”

      well remember almost every single time omar talks about where the money goes he says the security is owed money and he always says they only have $50K left! so i’m not surprised they aren’t getting paid what they want. And i think omar knows it’s a huge waste of money! but you know GZ thinks he’s so damn important and loves the attention from anyone- even if he has to pay them!!
      the problem with the security company is they would’ve loved the free advertisement they thought they would get from ‘guarding’ GZ. but nothing has happened!!! so there’s no press about them!LOLOL

      i wonder how JR is doing? is GZ lending his loving brother bodygaurds for his world tour??

      • Rachael says:

        “but you know GZ thinks he’s so damn important and loves the attention from anyone- even if he has to pay them!!”

        The thing is, he hasn’t paid them. It is the “even if he has to pay them” part I take issue with. He seems to have a problem paying bills.

        Think of how he got his other bills paid. He didn’t pay the. The money other people sent him paid them.

        Now that he has these bills, his new way to get bills paid is to sue people – TV stations, newspapers and high-profile people.

        It seems GZ has never taken responsibility of anything he does, and that includes paying bills.

        Look how high he has built this pyramid scheme of his.

        I think his days of conning for dollars will be over very soon.

      • you know he was convinced the TV interview would have the money rolling in again. and so was Omar. but it backfired and to this day they are still trying every trick in the book to convince the ‘masses’ he’s in danger!
        he thought the money would keep on coming and that’s the only reason he paid off his old bills! oh and what a year of Internet service in advance??? LOL oh and phone service for them both!! and the bullet proof jackets for him, shellie and omar!! big spender huh?!!LOL moron.

        but he was doing the suing for years before. and remember he also got sued by the credit card companies – they were each sued for running up CCs buying a bunch of stuff and never paying. total scum bags. they would each run up a card in his name then get one in her name and do it all agian/

        SZ: Yeah, they do, trust me. And boy, after that happened yesterday, he said like, so many people, your-your site kept crashing.
        GZ: Wow
        SZ: He said people were just trying to give you, you know, words of support and kindness.
        GZ: Good, Wow, that’s awesome.
        SZ: Yeah
        GZ: They need to, and to talk to uh, O’Mara about getting the word out because i mean those people need to start vocalizing themselves.

  85. Malisha says:

    Q: Do you want them to meet you by the mailboxes?

    A: Actually, could you tell them to call me when they get here?

    Yeah. No problem. No problem, homie, that’s just fine. “Call me, the minute, you get there — ” No problem, homie.

  86. Xena says:

    This is Dave’s latest. For some reason, that fire hydrant keeps calling my name. Could GZ have fallen on it, hitting his head?

    • Jun says:

      I dont think so. The hydrant is hard metal and steel. Falling on it would cause a more significant injury

    • Cercando Luce says:

      I hear a ring tone right after the NEN operator days, “you’re welcome” at the very end of the call. I wonder if that’s Trayvon’s ring tone.

      • Xena says:

        I hear a ring tone right after the NEN operator days, “you’re welcome” at the very end of the call. I wonder if that’s Trayvon’s ring tone.

        GZ ended his NEN call at 7:13:39 whereas DeeDee called Trayvon at 7:12. GZ had also made changes in his plans on where to meet the cops and to have them call him for his location, indicating that he heard Trayvon’s phone ringing and/or heard him talking before he changed his plans.

        I too have heard a phone ring at the end of that call — don’t know if someone else was with GZ or if it’s in the background of the dispatch office.

  87. grahase says:

    For a complete breakdown of rain (how much at what time) and wind speed (how much and what time), please go to tchoupis charts:

    alot of excellent analysis done by whonoze and tchoupi can be found on

    I encourage those who have not visited the site, to do so.

  88. Malisha says:

    Only 0.25 inch of rain for that 24-hour period.

    But, 0.21 inch or more makes a Black kid in a hoodie look reeeeeeeeal suspicious.

  89. Mandelbaum says:

    Oh no, it looks like GZ is gonna have to sue MSNBC commentators; Michael Eric Dyson and Michael Isikoff for comments made today on the Martin Bashir show. They jokingly suggested that NRA head Wayne Lapierre’s solution for automatic weapon vioence in schools could be detered by hiring George Zimmerman to patrol and protect our innocent school children. LOL. I wouldn’t put it past him, he needs the dough.

  90. Bill Taylor says:

    the rain was very light and indeed had stopped or almost stopped when the murder happened….i saw somewhere there was less than .25 inch of rain for the whole 24 hour period.

    • grahase says:

      Actually, during the event, from 1730 to 1830 there was minimum precipitation. From 1615 until 1730 hrs, .02 inches per hour. During the event, there was .09 inches per hour – the heaviest in the 24-hr. period. During the event, there was almost no wind.

      So, sorry, the rain was not light and it had rained more during the event than at any other time within that 24-hr. period.

      A quarter inch of rain in such a short period of time is pretty well a downpour.

  91. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    I love it! Have any of the Fogen lovers given their explaination of how Fogen’s blood ran up? I don’t think I’ve read any comments from them on it. I guess they would just give the usual ignorant answer of Fogen didn’t start bleeding until after he got out from under Trayvon..forget that there wasn’t any blood smear at all on the back of his head…oh wait the rain washed it off, then he bled again.LOL…gotta do better than that and guess what??…it ain’t gonna happen. 🙂

    • CherokeeNative says:

      Yep, the treepers have discussed this – right after bashing our dear LLMSPapa:

      ottawa925 says:

      December 21, 2012 at 9:30 pm

      It seems the goofs over at the Trayvon camp are giddy as all get out cause they have discovered gravity. And that the blood on George’s head would have been effected by gravity, and that the blood should not have dripped down along to the ear area. Boy, they are a bright bunch aren’t they? However, blood experts will be glad to explain how blood gets in all kinds of places you wouldn’t think it would get, or travel in ways that different from other liquids. Cause each liquid has it’s own componets. THE SURFACE it is on also can contribute to how a liquid would travel. Blood, almost has a greasy feel fresh, however, it begins to dry very quickly, unlike water, and blood as it dries can begin to direct fresh blood in another direction. That’s just off the top of my pointed head. Apparently, the dim bulbs over at Trayvon’s camp think blood should just drip straight down and nowhere else. I’m sure some did, however, in the rain, in the dark, how to do find the exact spot?

      James F says:

      December 22, 2012 at 1:01 am

      Let’s see… who should we rely on for analysis of the blood flow? Should we trust a psychotic, dimwitted, convicted felon, armchair “forensic expert” like LamePapa or a real forensic scientist like Dr. Larry Kobilinsky, who concluded that the blood flow proves Zimmerman was lying in a horizontal position, not vertical, and moving his head around?

      What about that photo showing Zimmerman’s bloodied head shortly after the shooting? “Blood is going to move in the direction that gravity pulls it in,” Kobilinsky said. “That will help explain the position of Zimmerman’s body and head after the trauma took place.”

      The track of blood in the photo suggests that Zimmerman was not vertical when the bleeding occurred, Kobilinsky said. “He had been moving, apparently. But vertical, no.”

      • Malisha says:

        They think “not vertical” means “Fogen is innocent”?

        To me, “not vertical” means Fogen was leaning over Trayvon Martin, who was on his back on the ground pleading and screaming as Fogen shot the hollowpoint bullet through his hoodie and into his chest. I done the math; that’s “not vertical.”

      • Rachael says:

        Interesting they listen to Koblinisky for that but dismiss this:

        “Martin’s autopsy indicated that medical examiners found THC, the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana, when they tested Martin’s blood and urine. The amount described in the autopsy report is such a low level that it would have played no role in Martin’s behavior, said Larry Kobilinsky, a professor of forensic science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York.

        “This kind of level can be seen days after somebody smokes,” Kobilinsky said. “If it comes up in the case, I would be surprised. It wouldn’t benefit the defense, it wouldn’t benefit the prosecution, and if the defense tried to bring it up, the judge would keep it out.”

      • JUN says:


        it seems they can not even understand gravity

        cant they see the blood is supposed to flow downward and judging by the pattern, he had his head bent forward the whole time when that injury occurred

        and the blood got everywhere except Trayvon’s hands or sleeves

        and the defendant was not vertical. he was bent 45 degrees forward when that injury occurred and he sustained that position while the bleeding occurred

        hence… the blood flowing downward, and as you can see, the direction is toward the ears

        so sounds like a double fail from racists who do not understand physics

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yes, JUN, notice also that the blood makes this pattern in one continuous flow. There is no stopping and restarting, there is no interruption or smearing. Thus, as you say, the head had to be held in position, until the blood coagulated. Even the drizzling rain would have provided enough moisture to thin the blood and cause it to spread and smear.

          But, since it takes about 6.5 minutes for blood to coagulate and for the trials and rivulets to become fixed, we have to look for a place where GZ had that kind of time. From the time he leaves home around 7:05, till the time the police arrive at 7:17 he’s only got 12 action packed minutes, with the blood flow supposedly starting in the last 2.5 minutes or less, before the first photo of it is taken.

          So, then, where is there six and a half minutes available for him to hold his head in one position while the blood flow fixes itself? The only answer is at home, and at home lines up with dried blood being seen by the medics.

          So, that’s two artifacts that require more time than GZ had available to him, once he left home. The dried blood requires over an hour, while the rivulets and blood trails required 6.5 minutes and a dry place to congeal.

          Because of these two separate facts, which each require more time than GZ had available once he left home, I have to conclude that the simplest explanation is: He prepared these wounds at home, anything else requires a narrative too complex to be reasonable.

          Now, working back from there, if he created these wounds at home, then he needed even more advanced notification. He could not have simply recieved a call, cut himself and left the house. He needed enough advanced notice, to create the wounds and fix the blood trails and rivulets in place, and still be able to leave home in time to be ahead of TM getting home. That requires that TM was being watched along the way. But, since he can’t be expected to leave home on a rainy Sunday night, his leaving home has to, most likely be provoked somehow.

          I’ll theorize that someone who knew TM, called him to set up a meeting, most likely place is the 711. Would TM come out to get a blunt? Was that the offer that brought him out to the store that night? Stay tuned, there’s a whole lot more going on than meets the eye here.

      • Malisha says:

        What the Outhousers say about the blood — I do not attribute that to an ignorance about physics or to any inability to understand. Just as I don’t attribute the Zimmerman family’s protestations on behalf of Fogen to be attributable to their inability to understand that Fogen is a murderer. What I think is that all of them are doing just what Fogen did: deciding that since the reality is not going to get him what he wants this time, he will promote some fantasy that works better for him.

      • cielo62 says:

        LOL! Maybe blood is like mercury and flows anywhere it wants! Did those geniuses actually graduate elementary school? Sent from my iPod

      • gblock says:

        “Because of these two separate facts, which each require more time than GZ had available once he left home, I have to conclude that the simplest explanation is: He prepared these wounds at home, anything else requires a narrative too complex to be reasonable.:

        Lonnie, actually you are showing a propensity for choosing complex explanations requiring a complex narrative over simple ones. You’re requiring that someone keep an eye on him long in advance of the incident while GZ prepares his injuries, as well as the participation in the conspiracy of some unknown teens. It is also unlikely that Trayvon received a blunt: he didn’t have it on him, and he hadn’t smoked it along the way (indicated by the level of THC in his blood being too low).

        A far simpler explanation is that GZ had somehow received injuries accidentally some minutes before he met up with Trayvon, even though we don’t know exactly how he received them.

        • Xena says:

          A far simpler explanation is that GZ had somehow received injuries accidentally some minutes before he met up with Trayvon, even though we don’t know exactly how he received them.

          One of the EMTs wrote that GZ’s head boo-boo was caused by a thrown object. They also wrote that the blood on his head had dried. One EMT noted one laceration on the head while another noted two. Let’s keep this all in memory about his injuries when discussing when they happened.

          Rather than taking all of his injuries to have occurred on 2/26, we might consider that some did, while others did not. Also, rather than consider when the injuries with the dried blood occurred, maybe we should consider that the blood was dry because it was not GZ’s blood, originating from any wound on him.

          From the onset, it has always been my impression that GZ touched Trayvon’s wound, getting blood on his hands, and put that blood on his head. Note, this does not address his face — just his head where the EMTs said the blood had dried.

          Does anyone detect a finger pattern of blood on the back of GZ’s head? A finger running pattern that goes behind the ears to the neck without running down to the jacket collar? It could be that GZ was not bleeding at all for there to be a gravity effect. But, if he insists, then the trail and gravity is not to his benefit.

          I’ve pondered the possibility that GZ was in a fight or drunken accident the Friday or Saturday before 2/26th and that is how he got his head boo-boos. Being already there, all he needed was blood. It didn’t have to be his blood.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          @ gblock, you said: “Lonnie, actually you are showing a propensity for choosing complex explanations requiring a complex narrative over simple ones. You’re requiring that someone keep an eye on him long in advance of the incident while GZ prepares his injuries, as well as the participation in the conspiracy of some unknown teens. It is also unlikely that Trayvon received a blunt: he didn’t have it on him, and he hadn’t smoked it along the way (indicated by the level of THC in his blood being too low).

          A far simpler explanation is that GZ had somehow received injuries accidentally some minutes before he met up with Trayvon, even though we don’t know exactly how he received them.”

          Exactly the opposite! You are making it more complex than it is, by tracing through it in reverse, ignoring the evidentiary “sign posts” that guided us through the maze of possible theories, to get us to a point.

          Thus, if you say that the blood evidence means nothing, then you can say that I’m making things more complex, by theorizing that he created these injuries at home, because of all that entails.

          What you are forgetting is: 1. The fact is we have no idea where these injuries came into being. We have, so far, only the self serving word of a man who is a proven liar.

          2. We do have ball park figures about how blood acts and reacts, and we do have indications of what was supposed to have occurred.

          You say “it’s far simpler to believe GZ had somehow recieved his injuries, accidentally some minutes before he met Trayvon”

          Yes, I’ll agree that it would be far simpler to believe that. But the real question is, “Would that be the truth?”

          Well, we know it takes 6.5 minutes for undiluted blood to coagulate.
          Okay, from the time GZ leaves his truck at 7:13 or so, until the police arrive, there’s only about 4 minutes for GZ to “accidentally” injure himself somehow.

          Now, we look at the picture, taken of the back of his head at the scene, and we look at the picture taken of the same head at the station. The blood trails are exactly the same. What that means is, the blood rivulets and trails in the photo taken at the scene, had already stopped flowing. Out in the rain, in less that 4 minutes, you’re saying we should believe that GZ’s blood somehow avoided absorbing any rain water, and coagulated faster than blood normally does? By 2.5 minutes yet?

          Now, look at those same blood trails, and you see they represent an undisturbed flow of blood. Do you think it’s easy to believe that blood will form undisturbed trails and rivulets, while the head is constantly moving about and changing direction/orientation? Or, is the simplest explanation that the head was held still while the blood flowed and coagulated? In a dry place, so that it became fixed, before it was exposed to rain which would have thinned it and made the edges of the rivulets and trails blur.

          It’s like skiing a Shalom, where the evidence provides the posts that you must keep your theorizing within. So, then, what is the simplest way to account for the head being held still while the blood flows congealed? Theorizing that this happened after he left home, requires us to believe in an extremely complex narrative.
          Far too complex to be true. Because, for example, he would have had to sit quietly in his truck for 6.5 minutes while the blood congealed. Where is there that kind of time? Did he also bring along a hair dryer with a cigarette lighter adapter to help speed the drying of the blood? Which view is becoming more complex? That he left home with these wounds and blood already fixed, or that he somehow took pains to create the illusion, after he left?

          Tchoupi’s work shows us that GZ left home, approximately 2 minutes before the NeN call begins. From there on, GZ is a whirlwind of activity. From 7:09 to 7:17, GZ is almost constantly in motion and out standing and moving about in the rain. This cannot account for the evidence we’re seeing. So I’ve given you the simplest explanation for the evidence we’re seeing, not the simplest explanation that ignores significant evidence.

          • cielo62 says:

            Lonnie- and your explanation is EXACTLY why your theory is compelling. The time that it takes for blood to dry is forensic science. That, along with the bullet’s trajectory, cannot be altered by a story.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Thank you cielo62, it’s the evidence that is requiring the complex narrative to explain it, not me weaving a complex narrative to create an interesting conspiracy theory.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            After explaining that a person, who may or may not be a blood spatter expert, provided us with a ballpark about bloody drying.
            Where he stated that he found that blood, on a hard surface, dried in 70 minutes at room temperature in low humidity. I’m still reading missives about theories that GZ’s injuries might have been gained accidentally, while he was out there in the rain.

            They should take a drop of blood and try the experiment themselves.
            Then look at the picture of GZ’s injuries taken no longer than 2.5 minutes after they could possibly have happened. Look at the blood flow and see if they can show us, how a head moving around vigorously in the rain, could have such blood flows, showing no interruption for any cause, less any change in direction of flow, while he was engaged in all this activity he and the witnesses cite.

            The pictured blood flows can only be the result of having the head held in a constant position, with very little if any movement, and certainly no abrupt movements, or the blood trails will change direction and show interruption.

            Then, realize that the NeN call happened at 7:09pm, and the police arrived at 7:17pm, so GZ has 8 minutes to have the blood start flowing down, and he has to hold his head still for 6.5 minutes approximately. Where in the less than 8 minutes since the NeN call began, can anyone find the 6.5 minutes needed for GZ to hold his head steady? Less, find over an hour for blood to dry, on a soft surface, in the rain (high humidity) at 12 degrees less than room temperature.

            The only place the requirements are to be found, one and all, are before he left home. Where he could have the heat on, so that the blood is warm and kept dry, so it might dry faster, while there is plenty of time for it to congeal as well, without interruption by any need to perform actions.

            I guess some people don’t believe in science, but if so, they have no need of reading investigative materials or theories about anything. Because any theory relies on definitive things being known about a variety of things. If one doesn’t believe in science, then they are able to believe anything at all. But “anything at all” doesn’t happen. People don’t simply disappear into thin air while you watch. Food doesn’t cook itself in an instant, even if it’s called “instant” this or that. Things thrown up come down. And it takes time to travel distances. Anyone who doesn’t believe it, hasn’t been paying attention to what’s been happening around them all their lives. Is why I go ballistic when I hear nonsense about “Creationism” and such. It simply defies the logic we’ve learned to rely upon all our lives. Has any ball player ever hit a ball that did not come back to earth? That’s reliance on science! No matter what anyone tries to tell you.

          • cielo62 says:

            LOL! With me, you’re preaching to the choir. Blood is a fairly well known liquid whose properties have been studied. I hope the prosecutors use this information. Still, even if they don’t, GZs goose is cooked.

            Sent from my iPod

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Unless they find someone else to charge we’ll never find out about it. As it stands they can follow it up as long and however they want, since it would be part of their work product, it doesn’t have to be disclosed to the defense. However, I wouldn’t put it past them discovering something. My only question is whether or not it will be enough to bring charges against anyone else. If not, it might also be used to turn someone in lieu of charges and such. We’ll just have to wait and see.

      • bettykath says:

        grahase, Thanks for being here. I appreciate you’re cautions about some of the speculation based on nothing and the demonizing of the defendant’s team. I objected previously and got “shot” at for it, metaphorically speaking.

        Now, for some speculation of my own : ) I’ll combine a couple of thoughts.

        If the defendant’s head injuries were inflicted prior to the altercation and most likely done at home, then how about Shellie banging him on the head with his gun?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          It sure could be, I can easily picture him sitting at the kitchen table with his head held in position, ordering Shelly to give him a good hard whack. It’d be a really stupid thing to do, since he couldn’t be sure that only superficial wounds would result. But, I guess in his drugged up condition, he just got lucky.

          The better thing to do is take a razor blade and carefully cut them in. That way you can be sure of what you’re going to get. Completely superficial wounds that even trained medics will easily dismiss and not be forced to go to the ER, where drug use and perhaps a jolt of alcohol might be recorded.

    • blushedbrown says:

      You have outdone yourself once again. LOVE IT!

    • sdunn5 says:

      Have I told you LLMPapa how much I love all you do? It really only boils down to one thing….which you have pointed out numerous umerous times. TY for everything I hoped was true!

    • Malisha says:

      Uh, LLMPapa, you asked, “Are you following me, George?”

      The answer is obviously: ………………… “No,

      I’m just going in the same direction.”

      • LLMPapa says:

        So you caught it, eh? LOL I’m bettin he never thought about THIS particular direction of the obvious.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        It’s called “a distinction without a difference”. If you follow someone from point A to point B to point C, then they see you again at point E to point F. Even if you are no longer following them, how are they to know? If you haven’t communicated with them, then you must assume that any actions they take, are based upon the knowledge they gained earlier, when you were actually following them.

        To assume anything else, you have to believe in telepathy.

        Let’s say for example, a policeman from afar, sees a burglar attempting to break into a house. Now, the burglar, who is planning to rob the house, sees through the window that a fire has broken out in the kitchen, and therefore decides to forget about the burglary, and is now attempting to break in, to save the occupants.

        How would the policeman be able to determine that the burglar has changed his plans?

        If the burglar spots the policeman advancing, he can communicate. But if he doesn’t, and perhaps even if he does, the policeman will form his own opinion. That being that a burglary was in progress.

        If GZ had ceased following, why is he not able or willing to identify himself, immediately upon contact?

        • Xena says:

          If GZ had ceased following, why is he not able or willing to identify himself, immediately upon contact?

          Lonnie, you caused me to think of a question. Taking the position of using GZ’s statement, what did he possibly do to cause Trayvon to ask “You got a problem?”

    • Jun says:

      why are the blood flow droppings so much thinner at the police station?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Because these blood flows have dried forming scabs. The drying time is approximately 35 minutes. Best ballpark estimate is blood should have taken over an hour to dry completely.

      • Malisha says:

        Why are they even THERE at the police station, Jun? I have been trying to ask this question for eight months. The blood trails are there when the bystander snaps a cell phone picture on the scene of the crime one minute after Trayvon’s body hit the ground dead. Then the police come, then the EMTs clean up Fogen’s head, THEN we see the video of Fogen without any blood trails as he gets out of the squad car unaided, gets “searched” without gloves, chats briefly with the officer, and walks unaided into the station house as the various surveillance cameras record him and there is NO BLOOD ON HIS HEAD and there is no visible injury on his head.

        Then he washes up; he has interviews; he writes down his story; etc. THEN they take a photograph of the front of his head (and the blood that was there before is gone because the EMTs cleaned him up on the scene) and the back of his head (and the blood that was there before and then got cleaned up and then wasn’t there any more IS BACK and although it’s thinner, the BLOOD TRAILS ARE THE SAME!)… Huh?

        Let me rephrase the question: What in the name of John-F.-Kennedy-in-Dallas-in-’63 the Fogen? What do you expect me to believe, HUH? HUH? HUH????

        YOU go find me an expert who can prove that it is possible for blood trails to appear, be cleaned up, stay cleaned up for a few hours, and then re-phoughking-appear same way again later! Find me that expert, I say, because he needs a Nobel-phoughking Prize! He has discovered the way to reverse time and reconstruct evidentiary blood trails. There’s a huge demand for that in the modern world!

    • Rachael says:

      Love it!!! Thank you so much.

    • bettykath says:

      Good video. I can’t believe I actually jumped a bit when the apple first fell. I knew it was going to happen but it was still a surprise.

  92. colin black says:

    Jun Ive thought that Trayvon may have been able to keep the accused from shooting him.Adrenilin an knowing his attacker/stalker was armed.He was in a fight for his life..Ive no doubt the defendant had his eapon drawn when he acossted Trayvon.When he heard someone say they were calling the police,,He relaxed thinking wittneses were aware of his plight an the calvary were on the way.He ceased his franttic struggle with this agressor assumeing he would run to escape arrest .When he relaxes gz gets the gun up an Trayvon lets out a terrified NOOOOOO as he realises to late that he is about to die,,,An if he did manage a final sentance before his lungs colllapsed..It was…YOU SHOT ME?!…………

    • Jun says:

      I dont find the story believable

      I feel Trayvon struggled and screamed until he was murdered

      I believe he was yelling so that police would know where he was, hence the defendant silencing him

      I do not believe Trayvon would be able to say anything, due to his present condition at the time

      • Cercando Luce says:

        John said he was calling the police,Trayvon knew the police were coming and screamed out for help! For help from the corrupt friends of Fogen, whose salaries are paid by taxpayers (like Brandi Green), and who tried to hide their friend’s crime of murder.

        Jun, you are right. Trayvon hoped the police would find him, and Fogen knew he was out of time. That evil man. His corrupt “public servant” friends, betraying the public.

      • Jun says:

        That is what I am thinking. I dont feel anyone in danger would stop trying to get help. Besides, the audio recording kind of concludes that.

  93. colin black says:

    Malisha thing is the defendant never thought his version of events would come under scrutiny let alone a jury an trial..Thats why he arrogantly assumed he could say an do anything,.I wonder what he would have said to Corey if he had the opertunity to talk things through with her.

    • Malisha says:


      He just “told them anything” because he had already been assured that he was not going to be charged.

      • Rachael says:


      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Agreed! He didn’t believe he would be charged. Still, he did make an effort to deliver an exculpatory narrative, even if the effort was shoddy.

        But, think about what this says for a moment! In less than half an hour, from the time he left home, until the police arrive, he has been talking to the police and building a story. So, where is the place and time for him to become informed that he would not be charged?

        If we’re assuming that this was a completely unplanned, opportunistic event. Then why would he need to be assured that he would be charged? Obviously, you don’t need any such assurances, if you have no plans to commit any crime!

        Am I making any sense yet? If so, then you’re beginning to see the faint trail of evidence, that’s leading me to believe that there was quite some advanced planning. Or, were the police just giving him blanket authority to go out and commit any crime he should choose to?

        If that were the case, then he needed no cover story at all, he could have just grabbed Trayvon and held him for the police. His crime would have certainly been a whole lot less than a homicide, and would have attracted far less attention as well. Thus, only something more serious requires these assurances, be obtained in advance. What say you all?

      • Malisha says:

        Lonnie S, here’s how I envision it. Fogen is pacing back and forth after killing Trayvon. A few witnesses he does NOT know are out there and several he DOES know are out there. Tim Smith arrives and a look passes between them. Maybe a “wink and nod.” Fogen says, “he was killing me; I had to shoot.” Tim Smith gives a barely perceptible nod which, in the dark, cannot even been seen and remarked on by the witnesses who are not personally familiar with him. To Fogen, however, it is crystal clear. Ayala shows up. Smith makes a gesture to him that nobody even picks up on. Ayala does the cop thing with the gun and with Fogen and as he does, he does the talk that the TV cops do and he starts the “just the facts ma’am” type processing like on TV and the witnesses only notice that. The elephant is already in the room. Raimondo is there, someone else is there, there are chest compressions, Fogen is in the car, there is a cell phone photograph, blah blah blah. EMTs show up and use two cotton balls and a half ounce of peroxide to clean up Fogen’s face and head. Tim Smith says to the EMT, “Wow, half his face is covered in blood.” EMT nods. Somebody says, “He took a helluva beating off that thug; lucky he lived.” EMT nods. Fogen says, “I was yelling help me help me but nobody came.” EMT nods. OK, he’s cleaned up. Then off they go, the squad car, driven by Tim Smith, Fogen in the back seat.

        Smith starts the engine. Fogen says, “They said I needed stitches and my nose is broken.” Smith says, “yeah, man, you got a terrible beat-down; one witness says it was MMA style.”

        Fogen says, “Damn, that a55hole was just about to get away.” Smith says, “Don’t worry; I’ll make sure they understand what happened out there.”

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          After a murder is a fine time to start hoping for police support. I’m just guessing, but I’d kind of think you’d want to know that before you even started breaking the law. If you think the police are going to fully investigate you and might not give you a pass, you’re not going to put yourself in a position such as this.

          Obviously with access to the Chief, who he helped into office, he has nearly all the support he thinks he needs. A few more cops on board and he’s got the confidence to go ahead and get on with it.

      • Rachael says:

        @ Lonnie

        ” that’s leading me to believe that there was quite some advanced planning.”

        Sorry, but the advanced planning thing is just too far fetched for me. I do however, believe GZ was lying through his teeth about not knowing about SYG (among all his other lies) and he thought that he could just say he was defending himself and walk.

        I don’t believe he intended to kill anyone that night. I believe he was just trying to do like he always did previously and chase them down and hold them for the police, but this time he had a gun and he got carried away.

      • Malisha says:

        The level of advance planning (otherwise known as conspiracy) that I believe in firmly is this: I believe Fogen set out that night with support from Taaffe, Osterman AND Tim Smith (at least) to BRING IN a “suspect.” I don’t believe he set out to KILL a suspect; it never occurred to him that the “suspect” would not “concede his authority” and submit to his superior “American decency.” He also didn’t imagine that he was going to find a “suspect” who had no criminal record, so long as he stuck to a Black “suspect.” So I think he planned to report Trayvon as suspicious, establish his own bona fides, and then restrain him so that when Tim Smith showed up, BINGO, they have the hero having (a) saved the neighborhood and (b) shown that he really did need to carry a loaded gun.

        I think the whole thing changed because, as usual, Fogen just couldn’t control the universe. So he had to kill Trayvon Martin and make up a story to justify that ending.

      • gblock says:

        “If you think the police are going to fully investigate you and might not give you a pass, you’re not going to put yourself in a position such as this.”

        Lonnie, there are plenty of a55holes with guns out there who shoot other people even though they don’t have police buddies who have assured them ahead of time that they won’t be charged. And we already know, from prior incidents, that GZ has impulse control problems. There is no reason to assume that he was told in advance that he wouldn’t be charged, no matter what he did. Possibly he was told that later, but not until it was evident that he was claiming self-defense.

        “His crime would have certainly been a whole lot less than a homicide, and would have attracted far less attention as well.”

        I agree. Because of that, I actually doubt the claims by some (I think you are among them) that GZ killed Trayvon to cover up for crimes associated with having grabbed and held him against his will. If he had either let him go, or continued to hold him at gunpoint until the police arrived, the charges would have been a lot less. There also would have been a much better chance that the crime would have been minimized and he possibly would not have been charged at all, since Trayvon had not been physically injured at that point.

        Also, because of GZ’s “good guy – bad guy” mindset, I am not sure that he thought of holding him as a crime. I think that it may have been more a matter either of the adrenaline kicking in, plus GZ’s ongoing impulse control and judgment issues. Plus perhaps wanting to teach him a lesson for being so uncooperative.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I don’t think that there’s anyone who doesn’t realize that murder, homicide and killing are extremely serious crimes. This is why I don’t see it in GZ’s mindset to need some vigorous assurance that he can get away with a homicide. I know what you are saying, sure there are a lot of people who do some incredibly stupid things, like the cop in Sanford who pulled his gun in the gas station, or that guy who shot up that car for loud music, or the pizza or the pork chop.

          But this crime kept wavering back and fourth between evidence that could make it appear premeditated, and back to spontaneous. But now that I’ve had time to proportion the artifacts, this case is squarely in the premeditated category. IMO, GZ planned and executed a premeditated murder that night. It doesn’t matter to me how many people believe it or not, I don’t have the ‘HARD’ evidence of it, the the ‘soft’ evidence is very strong in that direction.

          The mindset, the knowledge, the proclivities, the “support” group, all point to premeditated murder, planned and executed. I also think that between now and the trial, the hard evidence will be discovered, if it hasn’t already been. But this murder was several days in the planning. The SP doesn’t need to prove 1st degree to bring GZ to justice, so they are wise to take this “short cut” if they can’t dot all the ‘i’s or cross all the ‘t’s needed to prove a higher charge. But, I think they will discover the additional evidence anyway. Have a happy Holiday All.

      • grahase says:

        Lonnie and Malisha – He left the truck and was armed. He was not afraid of other so-called Thugs lurking because he knew Trayvon was alone. I believe he was patrolling prior to Trayvon’s return to the complex. Otherwise, he would have concerns about someone coming to Trayvon’s aid. He had no such concern.

        In my opinion, based on evidence in discovery, FrigginFogen murdered Trayvon Martin and it should have been charged with Murder 1. But, murder 2 is easier to work with.

        He had help.

        Most believe he carried his gun with him at all times (except for work) because he said so. Now, what witnesses said he carried at all times. Osterman for one and Osterman would say that, wouldn’t he. Who else said he always carried a weapon.

        Anyway, they have left the impression that this is truth. You see, it could be that he did not always carry. He took it out that night for a specific reason. He was going to do harm. He is a busybody. He is a stalker. I believe he was alerted.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I don’t know how many of you here, have been privy to practical jokes/surprise party planning. But, from my experience, some of the most elaborate plans could cover days. Especially surprise parties, where we had to be sure that the subject would be available and led to the right place at the right time, but also kept away from the plans and/or materials, until the party was to begin.

          IIRC, some of these plans became quite elaborate and required days of monitoring and discussing the subjects behavior, so that the plans could be moved out of the way of, immovable items, that we knew the subject just would not be moved to change. And/or, to cause the subject to change plans that they had made, but which we knew they could easily be made to change.

          Some people are so fixed into their routines, it becomes quite easy to plan and execute a surprise party, while others, have such complex lives, it’s difficult indeed, to “entrap” them into the necessary position at the correct time.

          Try to think of this in terms of GZ planning a “surprise party” for TM, who had arrived at RATL just 6 days before. Then, think about what you’d need to know, what you’d need to do to get TM into the right place and time needed to execute the plan.

          Once you grasp that a plan, as opposed to simply awaiting an opportunity, is necessary, you have to “climb the planning tree”, so to speak. Meaning that you have to begin to enumerate, all the possible necessities of such a plan, and only then throw out some of these collected possibilities.

          Some here have already realized that any plan to trap Trayvon would have had to span several days. I believe that it would also have to take in to account, possible ways of contacting Trayvon, to alter or control his behavior. Like, for example, getting to know who his friends in the neighborhood were, so has to have them lure him out of the house. Otherwise, at no time prior to him leaving his house, there would be no way to account for what his mission, and therefore his actions, might be.

          For a person without any foreknowledge, for example, TM leaving home could have been a mission to go visiting, instead of, or in addition to, going to the store. The timing of his return would be so random, it would hardly be of any use to any plan. So, his mission for leaving home, would have to be taken control of. That could be done, by knowing who his friends are and getting them to set up a meeting for some reason, somewhere. The sudden trip to 711, fits the bill nicely for me.

          Before we were given the 711 tapes and all, I’d envisioned he would have gone out that night, to the store, for more than just iced tea for himself and skittles for Chad. We didn’t know then, that he had 40 dollars plus on him, but, it certainly seemed that if one leaves for the store, on a rainy night, in search of snacks, with a game on tv in the offing. One would most likely have planned on getting some chips etc., more than just one candy bar. These purchases are hardly the kind of thing one finds a trip in the dark and the rain compelling goals for the given situation. You’d think that there would be at least one “necessity” item in the mix. Yet, at the store, after that entire trip, all TM wants is an iced tea for himself? Then, it’s pretty obvious that the iced tea is an “after thought” as in “while I’m here…”

          The idea of a blunt, which is a relatively hard to get item, would be more likely the purpose of the trip. In the mind of a teen, that would be compelling enough reason to make the trip, since it’s not something that can easily be obtained all the time. Things have to “fall right” to get a blunt. So, we see that it did that night.
          By “chance”? Or by design?

          Just some points to ponder, speculative, to be sure, but reasonable? Yeah! I remember as a teen, me and friends had contrived to get a beer or two, neither lateness, gloom of night or rain defrayed those plans. Simply because it was so hard to get otherwise, nor did anyone want to appear “wimpish” in the eyes of the group, so anyone we called would sneak out to join us.

          So, that all he purchased was an iced tea for himself, and just skittles for Chad, stuck me as a rather strange prize for the trip, even if he did spend that time with DD on the phone. His mind wasn’t on snacks at all, it seems to me he was focused on getting that blunt. If that is so, then it makes perfect sense that he’d head for the mail shed to smoke it before going home. Which, in turn, would explain why the shortest route home was not taken.
          At least, it provides a much better reason for him not heading home by the most direct route, a whole lot better than that he simply didn’t know the shortest route.

          • cielo62 says:

            I find your argument compelling. The only rub in your story is that there is no record that Martin had a blunt on him, nor that he had been smoking (nicotine in his system).

            Sent from my iPod

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, that is a point, but there can be many explanations for it.
            Notice he didn’t offer those guy any money before they made their purchases? If they had called him to come get one, he’d likely have come, teens are up for things like that. If they met him at the store, he would not need to ask them or offer them money in advance. Meanwhile, when they got out side, they could simply tell TM “hey, the clerk wouldn’t sell us enough because he knew you were waiting out side. So, either that or a thousand other excuses they could think up, would leave TM without a blunt, even if he’d left home to have his “friends” get him one.

            TM spends 8 to 10 minutes in the mail shed talking to DD. It’s possible he smoked it there, although I think it unlikely, I think he’d have told DD, after all, she’s not going to tell his parents.

            Also, the lure could have been a video game, an music cd or who knows what else, that became a promise unfilled.

            What we do know is that it was a very brief meeting of some kind, because TM waited a few minutes outside the store for them to exit and speak to him, before he started back home. What it was actually all about we can only imagine. The possibilities are endless, I’ll agree. But one of those possibilities, until it can be eliminated is, they were the cause of TM leaving the house at that time of day.

      • grahase says:

        I want to throw this out here.

        In my opinion, there is more of a connection to Fogen, Taaffe, Osterman, and Oliver than we know. Oliver worked with Fogen, as did Osterman’s wife. That is known.

        There have been hints that Oliver is or was a sponsor of Fogens in AA. We all know Taaffe is a major drinker. Perhaps the connection. Perhaps, Fogen began to fail when he hooked up with Taaffe. I think the four of them are connected to Alcoholics Anonymous. Hooking up through that organization could have very interesting conversations what with Taaffe being a loudmouth bitter bigot, Osterman being a loudmouth racist gun nut, and Fogen being a wannabee something, anything to fit in somewhere. Fogen wants to be the save-the-world tough guy. Osterman has connections and so does Fogen.

        Oliver hasn’t seen Fogen since his hookup with the other two and still believed Fogen was on the road to recovery. Probably hasn’t seen him in a few years – since Fogen moved from Lake Mary to Sanford.

        I dated a cop in my younger days and have first-hand knowledge that there are alcohol problems within the ranks of a police force. Who knows – could be there is also a connection within the force through AA.

        All is not what it seems.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          That’s valuable work there grahase. I was thinking that MO was GZ’s avenue into the SPD initially. That and his fathers connections. AA provides another avenue of connections. My guess is that somewhere along the line GZ managed to hook up with some of Burgess’s friends who probably also knew TM as acquaintances, being they were of similar age.

          I’m working with a theory that those guys who met TM at 711, may have called him and offered/asked if he wanted a blunt. He’d certainly come out to the store for that, if so, no matter the late hour and/or the rain. Offering to get Chad something would serve as a “cover story” if one were needed later on.

          A nice fit, he goes out to get a blunt, GZ then knows that TM will be coming back from the store soon. TM, meanwhile, heads for the mail shed to smoke his blunt before going home and GZ catches him there.

          If those guys at the 711 had a car, it’s indeed odd they didn’t offer TM a lift, of course, they could simply say they’re headed the other way. GZ certainly has enough “juice” to get them to do him small favors. So, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find there was some connection.

      • gblock says:

        grahase – Why are you suggesting AA as a connection rather than them maybe meeting in a bar and being drinking buddies for a while?

        Even if it can be shown that, contrary to what was claimed, GZ did not always carry his gun with him, is that enough to really show first degree murder? Maybe there is something relevant in the law that I don’t know about, but it seems to me that the prosecution would still have to deal with distinctions between scenarios: “Maybe I’ll need a gun to intimidate him” or “Maybe I’ll need a gun to defend myself”, versus straight out intending from the beginning to kill.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          @ Grahase: “grahase – Why are you suggesting AA as a connection rather than them maybe meeting in a bar and being drinking buddies for a while?”

          They all go to AA, that’s documented, what they might do in bars is not. So the simplest claim tends to prove the issue, so that is what get used. Unless and until we learn that these people have bar habits, as opposed to drinking at home, AA meetings is the best clue so far.


          “Even if it can be shown that, contrary to what was claimed, GZ did not always carry his gun with him, is that enough to really show first degree murder? ”

          The fact is, it was not only claimed by Osterman, it was also claimed by GZ himself. It’s not being used to prove first degree murder, it’s being used to show that GZ did not forget that he had a gun with him as he tries to claim.


          “Maybe there is something relevant in the law that I don’t know about, but it seems to me that the prosecution would still have to deal with distinctions between scenarios: “Maybe I’ll need a gun to intimidate him” or “Maybe I’ll need a gun to defend myself”, versus straight out intending from the beginning to kill.”


          Nope, not here… The fact and point of the matter is, GZ should not have had a gun with him at all, because he wasn’t required to follow suspicious people, in fact he was required to stay away from them. Thus, he does not need a gun, loaded with hollow point bullets, to simply stay away from Trayvon. All he needs to do is to stay in his truck.

          “Maybe I’ll need a gun to defend myself”, is totally incriminating because, the only way that can happen, is if GZ intends to illegally cause TM great concern for his life. That is illegal, which is why the NeN operator told him not to follow.

      • leander22 says:

        Oliver is or was a sponsor of Fogens in AA.

        grahase, I have never heard about this. But I would be interested about the source.

        Besides I am hesitant to connect the most visible people around Fogen, simply because they were the most visible and hearable/audible voices around.

        Again: Fogen’s voice message to Taaffe does not sound as if they were close to me. Besides, obsessed with chasing burglar suspects and leafing your door unlocked and windows open?

        Fact is, if someone indeed observed and informed Zimmerman about Trayvon, will s/he ever stick out “her” head now after the deadly shot, and tell us so? It feels all the NW captains that have left traces in the document collection we have by now are female. But your collection is completely male. What exactly is Shellie’s contribution to the nightmare for Trayvon? Another female.

        Did he always carry and the question if GZ and SZ had one or two guns, admittedly I never looked into this. How expensive was the gun by the way? Does it make sense once you both get a permit to assume that always the correct one of you both carries?

        But wouldn’t police have collected her weapon too, if she had one? And wouldn’t they have asked her based on her concealed carrying license if there were two?

        I understand the argument was that he got one from Osterman, and not from Shellie. This argument does not make sense to me, since he would never ever want to leave Shellie defenseless, he not only bought or at least intended to buy a bulletproof vest for her but also for O’Mara.

        I hope the Prof. who allows us to chat here on his expenses, I guess, is well and I wish him and his people relaxing holidays.

        For us over here tomorrow and the day after will be holidays all over Germany. I will spend most of it with a really bad cold in bed it seems. For Trayvon it wouldn’t have been one, much less two holidays if I get matters right. RIP, Trayvon, what else could I say. Hard time for the family, I guess. First X-mas without Trayvon.

      • gblock says:


        You seem to be going in for more and more complicated conspiracy theories.

        How would they know that Trayvon was going to be at RATL on the evening in question?

        Why would GZ and friends be inclined to pal up to “thuggish” teens already known to be connected to burglaries in the neighborhood, for the purpose of trapping a different teen who they knew nothing about except for his race? And why would those teens be inclined to do him a special favor?

        And what happened to the blunt, since there was no evidence of it either in Trayvon’s bloodstream or on his person?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          gblock wrote: “Lonnie,

          You seem to be going in for more and more complicated conspiracy theories.

          How would they know that Trayvon was going to be at RATL on the evening in question?

          Why would GZ and friends be inclined to pal up to “thuggish” teens already known to be connected to burglaries in the neighborhood, for the purpose of trapping a different teen who they knew nothing about except for his race? And why would those teens be inclined to do him a special favor?

          And what happened to the blunt, since there was no evidence of it either in Trayvon’s bloodstream or on his person?”

          Let’s take these one at a time:

          How would they know that Trayvon was going to be at RATL on the evening in question?

          He showed up there and stayed for several days, they could simply assume that he’d be there for a few more! If he doesn’t stay, the plan simply collapses. After all, not all surprise parties come off, despite the best planning. Assumptions have to be made! For example, they assume, when planning a surprise party, that the party boy won’t have someone he loves meet some disaster that will prevent him from attending. They assume, over the intervening time, no accident or catastrophe or other incident will call him away.
          So, the planning quite naturally continues to completion, despite a zillion and one unknowable things that could cause such plans to go awry.

          Thus, the simple answer is: They simply assumed his availability!
          That’s not impossible to do, it is not either difficult or impractical since it is something we always do all the time.


          Why would GZ and friends be inclined to pal up to “thuggish” teens already known to be connected to burglaries in the neighborhood, for the purpose of trapping a different teen who they knew nothing about except for his race? And why would those teens be inclined to do him a special favor?


          We don’t know who, exactly, TM “palled up with” if he did. I could have been one of a “friend of a friend” or an acquaintance made at RATL. In any event, how would TM know that these were thuggish teens? Does he read the newspapers, or check the police blotter and such? Of course not, he only knows them as people he’s seen around, and even may have played football with.

          To lure someone somewhere, you only need to be known as a passing acquaintance by them, depending on what lure is to be used. Certainly for the purposes of buy a black and mild, which Trayvon might want, but could not buy himself, an offer to buy one for him, should be a chance to lure him out. We don’t take every offer, by acquaintances, to be of sinister import. These are kids talking to kids, in a conspiracy, about things they don’t want their parents to know.

          Thus this remains a reasonable possibility. Among many other reasonable possibilities, this one, at least has some event connected to it, that might be an indication it’s true. Thus it is reasonably something to think about, until we learn more.


          And what happened to the blunt, since there was no evidence of it either in Trayvon’s bloodstream or on his person?”


          A “blunt” is used to also mean a “Black and Mild”, which is a cigar, not a MJ smoke. Teens, as we are told, seek these cigars, when they can’t get MJ. So, again, it is reasonable to think that TM wanted to get a B&M which he could not buy for himself, he needed an older person to get one for him.

          Of course, no one checked the mail shed to see if there were any ashes or the butt of such a cigar left there. We do know that he sheltered there for some 8 minutes or more, which is more than enough time to smoke a B&M, or to discard early, because of the interruption. tchoupi’s analysis shows that it was actually raining harder when TM left the mail shed, than it was when he first got there.

          So, he doesn’t head home by the most direct route, he shelters from the rain when he could have kept moving. Says he may have intended to stop there, as a good place to smoke the B&M before going home. Obviously he wouldn’t take it to his house. But, against that view, he has not told DD that he is stopping to smoke, I’d think he’d tell her, since there’s no danger she’s going to tell on him. So, unless she has said that she doesn’t approve of it, he’s probably going to tell her. That he didn’t tell her, either means that she doesn’t approve of him smoking, or that he didn’t smoke one at all. Until we know more, those are the reasonable alternatives to keep in mind.

          And finally, blood testing will not reveal that a person has smoked a cigar, which is what they also call a blunt.


          Like I said before, the only thing that allows you to call my speculation “more complex conspiracy theories”, is the fact that you are ignoring the evidence that leads to speculating that way.

          Each of my speculations is an attempt to reasonably account for evidence that exists, so I keep to a narrow field, with theories that tend to link the evidence we have, with reasonable explanations for it.

          Sweep those evidentiary points aside and anything at all becomes possible, and my theories appear to be “far more complex than necessary”. They aren’t really all that complex at all!

          Since blood requires 6.5 minutes to congeal, I simply look at the timeline, to find a place where that time is available. But, because the blood trails and the rivulets do not appear to be exposed to rain, and have not been rubbed in grass prior to congealing, nor bashed on concrete when they started. Added to the fact that completely dried blood requires nearly an hour or more, if it is not kept in a warm dry place, then I simply look for a place where the time and conditions for this to happen exists.

          Simple, to keep the head still for 6.5 minutes, and allow for the blood to dry faster than an hour, a warm dry place is needed. A place and time where there are not the distractions that happen swiftly after GZ leaves home. So, the conclusion has to be, the wounds and blood trails were fashioned before GZ left home. Nothing else fits the bill. Nowhere out side his home, does he have the time to both open the wounds, hold still and keep the blood warm and dry.

          Either come up with another way for this evidence to arrive in it’s final state, with a theory of your own, but stop trying to remove the evidence points that lead me to fashion my theory. Or, show that some assumption I’m making is incorrect for cause. Otherwise, simply note it and move on. Something will either confirm or refute the points I’m either making or relying on, and so my theory will be changed to take that into account, or discarded entirely.

          Until then it’s something to think about.

      • gblock says:

        leander22, too bad about your cold. Take care of yourself. In answer to your questions:

        In most states, a permit to possess a gun is less restrictive than a concealed carry permit. If he lost the concealed carry permit, he would probably still be allowed to keep the gun at home.

        I’m pretty sure that even if he was no longer allowed to possess guns, they wouldn’t be confiscated by the police, although he could be in trouble if the police later found them at his home or on his person. He and Shellie would have been allowed to transfer possession through sale or by giving it away, or could let someone else hold on to their guns for safekeeping. Prior to the shooting, GZ probably had not been in serious enough trouble with the law to cause him to lose the right to have guns in his possession.

        Of course, it is possible that, with his connections, the police simply looked the other way, but I think that he was still legally allowed to have the gun at his home.

      • gblock says:


        “Like I said before, the only thing that allows you to call my speculation “more complex conspiracy theories”, is the fact that you are ignoring the evidence that leads to speculating that way.”

        No, I am calling your speculation “more complex conspiracy theories” because it assumes the participation of additional people with no known connection to GZ. You misread my most important question and therefore did not provide a reasonable answer to it. So please pay attention. To repeat my question:

        “Why would GZ and friends be inclined to pal up to “thuggish” teens already known to be connected to burglaries in the neighborhood, for the purpose of trapping a different teen who they knew nothing about except for his race? And why would those teens be inclined to do him a special favor?”

        GZ didn’t know anything about Trayvon. But he apparently did know that Burgess’ friends (if that’s who they were) were connected to burglaries. So why would he have chosen to use the thuggish teens to go after the unknown teen? Even more important, why would they be willing to drop everything in order to do GZ a favor?

        In your previous reply, you talked about what Trayvon did or didn’t know or may have chosen to do. But THAT’S NOT WHAT i ASKED ABOUT! What is making this a complicated conspiracy theory is your bringing in these additional teens to the conspiracy, and not just as people who happened to be there. And you still haven’t explained the crucial element that I find hard to believe: that they were willing to go out of there way to help trap Trayvon AT GZ’S REQUEST.

        As for the blood trails, the pictures at the station weren’t taken until several hours later – plenty of time for the blood to dry. And I’m not convinced that our information about the exact state of the blood at any particular time on scene, and what it “should” have looked like after x number of minutes, is reliable enough to base any solid conclusions on it. Most people on this blog (including me) don’t believe the head-bashing claim. So, there is no reason that the blood on the back of his head would have collected grass or debris from the ground, because his head wasn’t against the ground.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          You’re munging too much together. You’re asking things I’ve already explained. Then you add: “Why would those kids at the 711 be willing to help GZ trap a kid…” Where did you get the idea that they had to be helping GZ to trap a kid???

          All I said is that they could be the reason that TM left to go to the store! Obviously that doesn’t mean they also have to know GZ and/or what he was planning to do. Even if GZ had planned it all, why in the world would he tell them anything more than what they needed to know? And even that would probably have been a lie.

          Go back and read what I’ve already wrote and don’t put any more into it than just what I’ve said. All of the things you’re asking me to explain are things that are not required for that to be true.

    • Jun says:

      I feel defendant still premeditated his story but because the defendant is a person who acts without thinking or thinking proper, he just acts, and in this method, he just lets his lips go, hence the lying but not very good lying or planned at that

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Yet, he weaves his narrative in a fashion that would tend to show that he observed NW rules as best he could under the circumstances. That’s evidence that he knew what the rules were and had formulated ways to get around them. “The store, going in the same direction, he attacked me, I forgot I was armed with a weapon loaded with extraordinarily deadly ammunition.”

      • gblock says:

        Yes, his excuses for failing to observe the NW rules are truly pitiful.

      • gblock says:

        To clarify, I think it is likely that his excuses for failing to observe NW rules were planned in advance. In fact, he may have been ready to use them before “patrols” on earlier dates as well.

  94. Malisha says:

    I simply don’t understand why anyone cares who Tracy Martin thinks was screaming, who Sybrina Fulton thinks was screaming, who Robert Zimmerman Sr. thinks was screaming, who Gladys Zimmerman “thinks” [as opposed to thinks] was screaming, or who Erwin, Serino, Witness #1492, or unknown neighbor with eyes on the side of his nose thinks was screaming.

    Biometric voice analysis of the screams say whoever was screaming, it was not Fogen:

    As if a person could prove anything in a court of law based on the fact or absence of his having screamed! Idiotic premise.

    If I wanted to kill somebody, I’d take a baseball bat, run down the street after him, scream bloody murder and beat him to death. THEN if I wanted to get off, I’d say, “I was screaming for help but nobody stepped up to the plate.”

    • Rachael says:

      Is this going to be admissible do you know for sure? I mean I know they will have experts who can say it not GZ based on that, but if GZ’s voice stress analysis (what some people keep referring to as a “lie detector test”) is not admissible, will this be?

      • Malisha says:

        The voice-stress test is completely different from a voice analysis. They use voice analysis all the time in court to identify who called a certain person, who called 911, who made threats over the phone, etc. It analyzes components of voices. It’s like an EKG but of the VOICE. It’s admissible. It’s voice identification expert stuff.

        That’s completely different from tests that purport to test stress, truth, veracity, etc. in individuals. Just think, if they were scientifically tested to tell truth from falsehood, we wouldn’t need witnesses, judges, or anything else. Just test people and if they’re lying, lock them up. All those tests, the voice-stress analysis and the polygraph (more accurate and more useful but still not good enough to be accepted in court) and so forth are very subjective, very variable, of limited use, and inadmissible.

        I can say that I hear James Brown singing. I can be right, I can be wrong. I can be lying. The real way to find out if any of these statements is of evidentiary value depends on a lot of data, not just what Robert Z Sr. says, what Tracy Martin says, what Erwin says, what Erwin’s computer says.

        Biometric voice analysis of the screams on the tape have, so far, said that they did not come from Fogen. The rest of it remains to be heard.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The best way to explain voice analysis this: Like a fingerprint, voices have characteristics that are caused by the shape of the throat, the size and condition of the larynx etc., which, like the “rifling” inside the barrel of a gun, which leave marks on the bullet, these shapes and conditions leave impressions and “shape” the voice.

          They used to use “voice prints” to analyze voices, but they’ve advanced from that. But your voice print for the same word will be different from another persons, because of the differences in shape, size and condition of your throat etc.

          They exclude GZ’s voice as the one producing the screams, because his voice is not capable of producing sound with the same characteristics. Which, as you might expect, would make sense, because an older, more mature male throat etc., is going to have undergone big changes from those of a teen.

          So, what the experts have said is that, the voice heard screaming on the tape, lacks sufficient markers to be seen as more than 50% similar to the voice screaming. Their expertise, having performed this test many times, they expect a 90% + degree of similarity, to confirm it as being the same voice.

          They cannot match the voice to that of Trayvon, because they don’t have a reliable sample to make such a comparison with. If they had a fingerprint for example, they could say that it didn’t match GZ. But if they had no fingerprint sample from Trayvon, they could not say that it matches him, even though there were only those two people as possibles. So, that’s as far as they can go.

          Of course, all we, and the jurors, will need to know, is that the voice screaming does not belong to the man with the gun! The jury is, after all, the “finders of fact”. The screams are there, the reasons for them are apparent. So, who do you think they will choose as the most likely source?

      • Jun says:

        the voice stress test is not admissible because there is no machine possible that can tell when someone is lying and that is what it is alleged to do

        Voice stress would only admissible if it simply measured what the title alleges, which is measuring stress in the voice

        The only logical conclusion is the defendant was not stressed out at what happened

        However, they can not admit it to tell lies or not

        The voice analysis is different in that it analyzes voice not truth

    • sdunn5 says:


  95. blushedbrown says:


    IIRC, as discussed, the permission to view Apple Iphone from witness was taken from FDLE.

    No other photos were found on his phone and the phone was given back.

    Page 73 of 284

    Click to access Zimmerman-documents.pdf

    • leander22 says:

      Blushedbrown, I cannot be sure of course, but I always thought this concerns witness 13, who during his interview with FDLE on 03/20 “suddenly” remembers the photos he took that night.

      It could of course also have been officer Wagner’s. But strictly if I remember correctly, Wagner took two photos, but witness 13 three, one of Fogen, one of Trayvon Martin and one of the flashlight.

  96. Malisha says:

    I think these repeated foolish motions are designed for a different purpose, actually two purposes: (1) create the false impression, in the public eye, and maybe as well in the appellate courts, that the defense was somehow handicapped by bad behavior on the part of the prosecution, and all because of political pressure; and (2) find out how much the prosecution really has. I’ll deal with the second one first.

    In about 1995, maybe thereabouts, a friend of mine who was a social scientist who worked for the Division of Army Psychiatry told me about a case of a colonel at Fort Benning, Georgia, who had molested four children, and who was targeted by the Army Criminal Investigations Division, but his own Commanding Officer prevented him from being even investigated, much less prosecuted. We got data together, some of it gathered with a measure of difficulty, and we confirmed the stories, and went to the Brass in the Army, and they gave us the brush-off, and then one evening at 6:00 p.m., ALL THREE TV STATIONS IN COLUMBIA, GEORGIA, broadcast redacted copies of the CID report and nailed the guy. The next morning the Pentagon called and begged me to come in and speak with them about the case. AND BRING ALL MY DOCUMENTS.

    They then held nine more meetings with me and gave me free phone privileges to speak with them and never once did they fail to return my calls within 15 minutes. They were, in the meantime, asking me for more information. Bring this, find out that, get this, do that, they had me running around bringing them information for six months, and always so polite you could go into sugar shock if you were diabetic. And then a big kiss off and they left the guy alone.

    So when I looked back on that case (which we called “Baby-Hook” named after “Tail-Hook,”), I realized I knew what they were doing for those six months while they were making us run around getting them more and more evidence: they were seeing how much we had, how much we could get, how much was available, how much other people were willing to talk about what had happened, how big the concentric circles were from the stone we had thrown into the water. Once they realized that we really couldn’t get a national outrage going, and that all the evidence we COULD get could be managed, they screwed us over and gave the Colonel back his raping privileges.

    That’s where Fogen’s defense team is now. “Let’s see what they have, what they can get, how much they can stir up, whether the outrage has died down yet, how much energy they have, how much money they’re willing to spend, and when it will be safe for Fogen to run or for us to cut a corrupt deal and whisk him away.”

    That’s the name of the game now.

  97. Jun says:

    Oh yeah, btw,

    Jun is a name for males in Chinese/Philipino/Korean culture

    I am a dude just to let u know

  98. Malisha says:

    Someone upthread suggested that perhaps Fogen told Trayvon that the police were coming, to intimidate him. But I think that is impossible. Had Fogen told Trayvon that the police were coming, that would have done just the opposite; Trayvon would have been relieved that the police were coming; he would not have thought that he was being accosted by a criminal madman intent on kidnapping, harming or killing him. In fact, had Fogen said, “Stand still; I have called the police and they’re on their way here,” I think Trayvon would have been quiet and watchful, expecting that at any moment, the police would show up and he could give them his father’s cell phone number and his father would vouch for him and he could go home. Anyone in danger hopes the police are nearby.