Open Discussion about the Elementary School Shooting in Newtown, CT

December 14, 2012

This incomprehensible event today at the Sandy Hook Elementary School (K-4) in Newtown, CT, and the issues it raises merit a separate discussion thread.

28 dead (20 children and 8 adults, including the shooter)

My God, I don’t know what to say.

343 Responses to Open Discussion about the Elementary School Shooting in Newtown, CT

  1. Honoring the Sandy Hook Shooting Victims

    GWEN IFILL: And to a different kind of honor roll tonight, of those killed in Newtown, Connecticut, on Friday morning.

    As we have been reporting, there were 20 first-graders and six women in the school, plus the mother of the shooter, who lost their lives. Here, in silence, are the names of the 27 victims. Twenty-five photographs were available — first, the children in alphabetical order.

  2. The Voice singing Hallelujah for the Sandy Hook shooting victims in Newtown, CT

    *tears*

    • jm says:

      I have always loved this song. Thanks for posting.

      I really have to stop thinking about this tragedy. Watched more interviews last evening and the parents who are speaking out to ensure people know their who their child was are heartbreaking. Someone read the eulogy one of the mothers of the 2 boys buried yesterday and it was so beautiful and so brave of her.

      • The song touches my heart and brought me to tears. I read the mother’s eulogy. The sadest thing I’ve ever seen. No parents should be burying their babies a week before Christmas. Something must be done about gun control. I think we’re gonna get action now.

  3. Breaking:Dick’s Sporting Goods suspends sales of ‘modern sporting rifles’ nationwide.

    http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2012/12/in-wake-of-fridays-school-shooting-dicks-sporting-goods-suspends-sales-of-modern-sporting-rifles-nationwide.html/ …We got action

    ________________

    We got action..

  4. PiranhaMom says:

    Please consider this article …

    The Money Behind the Newtown Massacre

    One way to reduce mass shootings is for big institutions to stop funding the assault weapon manufacturers.

    By Dan Primack December 17, 2012: 2:32 PM ET
    CNN/Fortune Magazine

    FORTUNE — Do you know who owns more than a 6% stake in the maker of .223 Bushmaster rifles, like the one used last Friday to murder 20 first graders and seven adults in Newtown, Connecticut?
    California public schoolteachers.
    The company in question is Freedom Group, a privately-held firearms conglomerate formed by private equity and hedge fund group Cerberus Capital Management. Cerberus created the platform in April 2006 via the acquisition of Bushmaster, after which it added another 10 makers of firearms, ammunition and accessories (including Remington, Marlin Arms and Barnes Bullets).
    The California State Teachers’ Retirement System (CalSTRS) committed to invest a whopping $500 million into a $7.5 billion Cerberus fund that has helped bankroll Freedom Group. That means that it effectively could own a 6.67% stake in the gun maker, which filed to go public in late 2009 before pulling the offering in early 2011. In fact, the figure could be even higher since CalSTRS also committed $100 million to a $1 billion predecessor fund, which likely made the original investment.
    What I honestly don’t understand, however, is why. Check out the following part of the pension system’s statement on investment responsibility:
    Non-economic factors will supplement profit factors in making investment decisions. Non-economic factors are defined as those considerations not directly related to the maximization of income and the preservation of principal. The consideration of non-economic factors is for the purpose of ensuring that the Retirement System, either through its action or inaction, does not promote, condone or facilitate social injury.
    Does Freedom Group not facilitate social injury? I’m not suggesting that social injury is its mission, but it certainly is a foreseeable consequence.
    Moreover, CalSTRS has identified 21 risk factors “that should be included within the financial analysis of any investment decision.” Here is the one titled Human Health:
    The risk to an investment’s long-term profitability from business exposure to an industry or company that makes a product which is highly detrimental to human health so that it draws significant product liability lawsuits, government regulation, United Nations sanctions and focus, and avoidance by other institutional investors.
    Pretty sure the manufacture of semi-automatic rifles would apply here as well.
    To be sure, there is a difference between buying a listed company’s stock and investing in a private equity fund that promises to build out a diversified portfolio. Direct versus indirect. But it also is true that certain institutional investors either, (a) Only invest in private equity funds that pledge not to make certain types of investments (e.g., firearms, tobacco, etc.), or (b) Insist that its money be carved out of any such offending investment, so that the institution does not become an indirect shareholder.
    Unfortunately, CalSTRS has not taken either tack.
    “Clearly you can make a case that this company’s products fall within the 21 risk factors, particularly the one regarding human health,” says CalSTRS spokesman Ricardo Duran. “But there are a lot of products that can be used responsibly or irresponsibly, and in this case it was used irresponsibly… Now that a tragic event like this has occurred, I’m sure that it is something that we will be discussing going forward.”
    When I followed up by asking if CalSTRS had such a discussion after a Bushmaster rifle was used in the Aurora movie theater shooting, Duran said he did not know. Also worth noting that Cerberus itself is not returning requests for comment.
    There has been a lot of talk in the past several days about how to prevent the next massacre, with suggestions ranging from strengthened gun control legislation to improved mental health infrastructure. And, for the record, I support both.
    But I also think that it’s time for our large nonprofit institutions to put some of their money where their mission is. Profit should be the primary goal of their investment offices, but not at the expense of their broader purposes. If a schoolteachers union or university endowment or nonprofit foundation truly cares about stopping the next mass killing, then they should not provide capital that produces the instruments of such destruction.
    For many gun enthusiasts, semi-automatic rifles like the .223 Bushmaster is about sport and individual liberty. For Freedom Group, they are about profit. If the company were unable to find private investors unless it changed internal policy — perhaps by only supplying such weaponry to police departments and military — then Freedom most likely would do so. Capital is, of course, the root of capitalism.
    Cerberus did not return repeated requests for comment. Also not commenting was private equity firm Bruckmann, Rosser, Sherrill & Co., which sold Remington to Cerberus and still owns firearms peripherals company Magpul Industries.

  5. If anyone wants to see the photos of these precious little children you can view them at the link below. It’s the saddest thing ever. May their little souls rest in peace. **tears**

    Photos | Victims of Sandy Hook Elementary School Shooting

    http://3chicspolitico.com/2012/12/16/photos-victims-of-sandy-hook-elementary-school-shooting/#comments

    • jm says:

      The pain for the parents seems unbearable to me. I have been sick at heart because I have children in my life that age, so innocent and so full of promise and life.

      The Newtown police keep giving interviews promising a motive. I hope we can learn something from the motive, what pushed this troubled killer’s buttons, to do the most horrific thing imaginable.

      I don’t want to jump to conclusions but I am always wondering if someone disregarded serious mental issues because of family loyalty that if addressed may have avoided this massacre.

      Senseless deaths always trouble me but the fact that most of these victims are between 6-7 years is overwhelming.

      I may be naive but I don’t get why anyone would want to collect 6 high-powered guns for any reason, but with an obvious troubled son in the home, the gun collection is beyond my understanding.

      • I am feeling so many emotions from saddness, to crying to anger! It rips my heart to think about the horror upon those little kids that day. It’s in our nature to protect the little ones. I can hardly comprehend the violence that was carried out on them. **tears** It’s too much.

        • jm says:

          SG2: “I am feeling so many emotions from sadness, to crying to anger!”

          The only anger I feel is that family members may have protected this troubled person for the sake of family loyalty. This “loyalty” takes me back to the Zimmerman’s who go to great lengths to protect GZ even though if they were at all intelligent would have seen signs of mental unbalance prior to the killing of TrayVon Martin (starting with the molestation of the cousin) and could have prevented the death of an innocent teen. Instead the Zimmerman’s choose to profit from the death and refuse to acknowledge GZ’s problems previously, including other violence and run-ins with the law. The person with class in the massacre of the innocent children is the killer’s father who gave a statement, not excusing his son’s actions or vilifying the children or system, but his sincere sorrow. Then we have the disgusting Zimmerman’s trying to profit from the murder……..

          • Xena says:

            Then we have the disgusting Zimmerman’s trying to profit from the murder……..

            Not only are they trying to profit from murder, they are also trying to vilify an entire race of people. In a nutshell, GZ’s advocates are saying that GZ had rights to violate NW rules by carrying a loaded gun, rights to profile Trayvon as a group of “assholes” and “punks,” and rights to follow Trayvon on foot. Effectively, they convey that GZ had the right to conduct a “coon hunt.”

            OTOH, they convey that Trayvon had no rights — none whatsoever. Anything GZ alleges that Trayvon did was not due to GZ’s decisions and actions. From their point of view, Trayvon had no right to seek protection, no right to defend himself, no right to run, no right to have a cell phone, and DeeDee had no right to talk to Trayvon on his cell phone during the events.

            Their ultimate position is that no one in America, and particularly Blacks, have the right to seek authorities to conduct investigation. Those authorities had no right to arrest GZ, and the court has no jurisdiction to conduct procedures to decide GZ’s guilt or innocence.

          • jm says:

            The whole Zimmerman family are disgusting people.

          • Xena:

            Hello! The Z family can learn how to conduct themselves with dignity and grace as the killer’s family from Conn, has expressed sorrow and shame and prayers for the families of the dead children and the teachers. They should look to them as how to conduct themselves. These people are not making any excuses for the actions of this young man. In fact, I am crying for that family as well. They must be in pain and torment over what this young man has done. I cannot imagine knowing that my son shot and killed 20 children!

            The killer’s family have not stooped to the level of depravity as the Z family has done, who feel that it is perfectly acceptable to align themselves with racists, and to vilify TM’s family all because they feel that they are superior to black people. Yes, the Z family could and should have helped GZ a long time ago. They knew he had mental and cognitive problems. Just reviewing the medications that he was on, and his lack of emotions and feelings tells me all I need to know.

          • Xena says:

            @Deborah, I totally agree.

            The killer’s family have not stooped to the level of depravity as the Z family has done, who feel that it is perfectly acceptable to align themselves with racists, and to vilify TM’s family all because they feel that they are superior to black people.

            The fact that GZ’s advocates hit the media before he was arrested still puzzles me. Who defends a person when they have not been arrested, neither know if he is going to be arrested?

            The dad and brother of Adam Lanza are acting honorably. Yes, showing compassion aids in healing.

          • cielo62 says:

            It’s strange to say but, yes, I feel sadness for the remaining Lanza family members. Who knows if the issue if Adam’s mental illness contributed to the 2008 divorce? Emelie’s father is an amazing man, a figure of strength, grace, compassion. GZ and his family should learn from them all.

            Sent from my iPod

        • @SouthernGirl2:

          I am just so torn up right now. I think this entire thing has hit me. I am ni complete shock. I saw little Emily’s dad on television and lost it. That man looks like he has been up for the last few days.. I don’t know how you tell your 3 and 5 yr. old that their big sister is no longer on this earth. I am in tears. I have pain and sorrow in my heart. I remember when my own kids were that small. They were happy and so trusting.

          I cannot imagine the terror and pain that those children went thru that day trying to run away from that madman! I wrote an earlier post on the gun situation in this country and something needs to be done in the United States PERIOD! I am so sick of hearing these spree and mass shootings! Please family, we need to do something!!!

          • cielo62 says:

            President Obama’s speech gives me hope that FINALLY we the people have bared our canines, and are willing to declaw the NRA.

            Sent from my iPod

          • I believe changes are coming this time. Like Potus stated we cannot tolerate this anymore. Little 6 & 7 year olds riddled with 3-11 bullets? Enough of the madness. Too much innocent blood has been shed.

  6. axpm says:

    so how does one keep guns away from a mentally unstable, adult individual, huh? In this country, that person is perfectly able to attain a semi automatic assault rifle. So we dont need stronger gun control then? hmmm im floored by that argument and the fact that it doesnt make sense to me.

  7. axpm says:

    I think most cops would be ok with the common person not having access to firearms. It would definitely make their job easier, no?

  8. axpm says:

    was just watching one of these news people and this dude actually said that james holmes picked the movie theater that he did cuz it was the only one that had a concealed weapons ban. So if more people had guns that this may not have happened. They really think the answer is more guns. They are banking on people not talking about guns and nothing will change again. Ugghh!!! I need to know we can do something about these guns and the gun culture. Protect guns at the expense of the life of little angels?? i just cant!

  9. Ina says:

    “Connecticut, by law, is a May-Issue state, as state statutes contain a suitability clause and a provision for applicants to “show good cause” for the issuance of concealed carry (CCW) permits. However, Connecticut is Shall-Issue both in practice and by Article 1, Section 15 of its Constitution: “Every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state”, although state and local authorities have some of the broadest powers in the nation to deny, delay issuance of, or revoke a permit.” (wiki)

    What was the good cause for the issuance in this case, and could the local authorities not have done something? And one gun that was used, as shown on tv , was not a hand gun, but a rather big one. How could the teacher get a permit for it?

    • Dave says:

      Has it been established that Ms. Lanza had a CCW permit? I don’t know the specificshere but usally in “May-Issue” jurisdictions CCWs have usually been available to people with plenty of money and/or political connections.

      I don’t know the specifics of Connecticut law, but you don’t need a permit to buy a long gun in most places.

    • gblock says:

      Ina, while a few state have stronger restrictions, most states allow adults to possess normal handguns as well as hunting weapons (rifles and shotguns), unless some special exception applies like a criminal record or having a known severe mental illness. There is usually a waiting period for buying a gun so that they can check the person’s record.

      There is a big variation in states and localities for concealed carry permits. Some will issue them to almost any adult, some have pretty stringent requirements in terms of both showing need and a certain amount of training.

      When it comes to “big guns”, the problem is not so much with hunting weapons, which have to be reloaded each time, as with semi-automatics, which allow the use to spray a bunch of bullets quickly.

  10. aussie says:

    Guys, please

    ENOUGH with the NAME CALLING and MOCKING. It is not funny anymore. Just say GZ, that is not a name, it is enough to identify the killer, and it stops this whole blog starting to look like a hate-fest.

    Making up mocking names for the “other side” is not a thinking person’s tactic, just look at all the political blogs and the names they call each other’s parties.

    Just use their initials for the killer, his family and his legal team, and use the full names for the victim’s side. Simple, everyone can follow it, and we keep the high ground.

  11. Xena says:

    Some lunatic decided to shoot 50 times into the air and ground in a California mall parking lot.

    http://news.yahoo.com/man-fires-50-shots-calif-mall-parking-lot-042034513.html

  12. Malisha says:

    Cielo, you say “unless I called him Voldemort.” How did you come up with the name Voldemort? I think it’s very funny but I can’t figure it out.

    • cielo62 says:

      Malisha~ I can see that you are NOT a Harry Potter fan!  🙂   The main villain’s name was Voldemort, but people were so afraid of him that everyone called him “He who should not be named.” Kind of like with FOGEN here. Hermione, a very smart young witch, wisely observed (As the professor did , too) that fear of the name raises fear of the thing itself. It gives it power. So Hermione took power AWAY from Voldemort by calling him by his real name, and we take power AWAY from GZ by NOT using his real name (since the notoriety is where GZ gets HIS power).

      ________________________________

      • PiranhaMom says:

        @DeborahGM

        I’m wondering if there’s anybody in this country that thinks there should be some inherent right to drive a car without a license? Without training, testing, renewal requirements, without insurance?

        How about LearJets?

        JUst because cars and planes didn’t exist in 1791 when the Bill of Rights was passed (with the 2nd Amendment in it, for our intenational friends) why should “late arrivals” on the technology scene be “exemptt” from such freedoms? And let’s face it, guns aren’t used for needlepoint. They’re designed to destroy life.

        We can’t have some controls over life-destruction devices?

        Why?

        • Xena says:

          I’m wondering if there’s anybody in this country that thinks there should be some inherent right to drive a car without a license? Without training, testing, renewal requirements, without insurance?

          Sovereign citizens do not believe that it is legal for the states to require licensing for anything. Some even believe that marriage licenses are illegal.

        • Driving a motor vehicle on public roads is a privilege and not a right. Same with flying an airplane. Since both activities are privileges, they can and are regulated by the state and federal governments.

          The Second Amendment recognizes a right to bare arms, which I used to believe was a right to wear short sleeved shirts.

          Until I went to law school.

          Then I found out that it’s the basis for the argument that people have a constitutional right to own a gun.

          I was impressed at the time, but I recall feeling somewhat disappointed because I’d have preferred to own a tank that launches shells the size of small Volkswagen Beetles for 100 miles.

          I worried myself sick trying to figure out how to stuff a tank into a holster and conceal it under my letter jacket, but none of my magic spells would do the trick and neither would the chemicals.

          Ahem!

          Because the SCOTUS recognizes a constitutional right to own a gun protected by the Second Amendment, arguments that call for regulating gun ownership and use, including requiring insurance, as is the case with automobiles and airplanes, probably won’t work until thousands more children are murdered by psychopaths with guns.

          That’s how crazy and upside down it is here in the insane menagerie that we call the USA.

          I’m sorry. I am very upset about what happened in Connecticut yesterday and I fear I’m going to go bat-shit crazy, if I hear another person say “guns don’t kill people, people kill people.”

          I’ve been listening to that argument since Charles Whitman picked-off 14 people, including an unborn child, from the 28th floor observation deck of the tower at the University of Texas on August 1, 1966.

          I. Hate. Guns.

      • gblock says:

        “The Second Amendment recognizes a right to bare arms, which I used to believe was a right to wear short sleeved shirts.”

        Good one, Professor! That reminds me of the Doo Dah parade, held in Pasadena, CA as a humorous comeback to that city’s famous Rose Parade. One of the sometime entries is the Committe to Bare Arms, a group that marches and does drills holding mannequin forearms as if they were rifles.

    • Jun says:

      You know how in old school media, they would give nicknames to criminals

      I came up with a couple for Zimmernuts Fogenhats The 3rd

      Knuckle Bandaids Simpson The 1st

      Chicken Scratches Johnson

      235 Black Friends Smith

      The Night Follower

      Photoshop The Kidd

  13. cielo62 says:

    From the album: Timeline Photos
    By Ryan Tucker
    This is Victoria. She died a hero today. She hid her first graders in the cabinets and closets after hearing the gunfire. When the shooter came to her classroom, she told him that her students were in the gym. He then gunned her down and moved on. She saved the lives of all of her students. Please pass this on if you see it. She deserves to be remembered for her bravery.

    Dang I can’t get her picture to embed. THIS is what a hero is.

  14. colin black says:

    I read the comments here an maybe supporting news links but Im not following this on the M S M even in the UK its been the leading story..So we dont realy know how accsesable the guns where an to whom…For all we know said three weapons an ammo may have been under severe security as opposed to just lieing about easy to accsess by anyone takeing a fancy to go shooting…3 guns were ther 4 family members? Mother Father an older Brother.Maybe it was set up to be Adam as the only one deneid acssess to the weapons without a responcable adult supervision.Who knohs its all supposition untill we get to see some factuall reports.I f he was indeed deneid acsess to the ammo am guns .Theres numerous ways he could comprimise the security rangeing from brute strength to stealth to torture to obtain keys or combination code or botth.We cant just assume that thease people were careless with there weapons…If when all the circumstances or as many possable to peice together a likley scenario .If theres any blame or fingers to point Thats the time to do it with cool heads not clouded by the fog of greif or tainted with rightous anger Lets not forget an lest we forget there must be lessons leared from this Schoolhouse /Those childrens screams of terror the surviveours horror witnessing there freins bloody lifeless bodys..Let them teach us let thembe martryd to a cause that will grow an grow.This is not a butterfly gently flapppping her wings in the jungles an mistyy forrrests of Amazon .Wich causes a chain of events leading to a hurricane the other side of the globe.No this is a Tsunami of ENOUGH is enough something has to be done to curtail this gun culture /fashion/Fallic Symbol/Cowboy mentality that some Americans do indeed worship at the alter of Guns .You need look no further than the glut of reality shows featureing guns in the states.They got reality competition shootout type shows .Theyve got reality shows think its called sons of guns .Basicly a Father an Son Gun manufacture /Customise buisness .Every thing from pistols up to tanks.Your allowed to own a tank becuase the law gives you the right to bear arms.Not just guns but arms wich could in theory be a submarine armed with a nuke missile.Its way to much an not what the Original signers of the admennmant envisioned..The right for the common American to raise up some minute men an defend the local small outposts from raids from enemeys could be British or Mexican whatever thats not the issue..Thats the reason the Founding Fathers wanted citizens have the right to own an maintain a weapon A second milita army for emergancys..Those reasons are long gone an been reduntant since the end of the Civil War.United States of America has been a powerfull Nation for hundred s of years .With a strong proffesinal Army An Navy .Powerfull reserve force as well as regular army .An even the ability to draft an arm civilians into the Army if deemed nessesery or perhaps the draft is ended now ?However either way the need for American citizens to bear arms to help with invaders an I mean Countrys invaders not home invaders .Those days are long gone.

  15. whonoze says:

    Damnit people, STOP CALLING GZ “CHORGE”!!

    Per Malisha, calling him “Cheorge” is fine. But, whether you intend it or not (and you intent is worth bupkis, BTW), “Chorge” reads as an anti-Hispanic slur, as it a corruption of the Spanish given name ‘Jorge.’ You are acting stupid and giving this blog a bad name.

    Professor Fred, I ask for your intervention in this matter!

    • jm says:

      Chorge or Cheorge is how George pronounces his name. He does not have a Hispanic dialect and was born and raised in the USA.

      My friends who are Spanish speaking with English as a second language do not pronounce a soft G sound as Chorge but substitute a Y as in Yorge. They also substitute names like mine beginning with J with a Y.

      They do not pronounce George as CHorge. They do pronounce Jorge as Hor-Hay.

      I don’t know what your deal is whonoze.

      Have a great day!

      • I noticed he always seems to come here and demand things of the Professor. Let me move on out of here…before I say too much.

        • jm says:

          SG2: “I noticed he always seems to come here and demand things of the Professor.”

          I’m not to familiar with whonoze style but the few posts I have read seemed intelligent and well-thought out but this last one regarding Chorge was pure wacky and asking the Professor to intervene was child-like. I did not mean to upset whonoze and I certainly didn’t use the name Chorge as a racist slur.

          • His posts are intelligent when he’s not demanding the Professor to either delete a post, or intervene on things he thinks are best.

          • cielo62 says:

            jm~ trust me, “Chorge” isn’t a racist slur. He DESERVES many of them (racist slurs), but “Chroge” isn’t one of them!    

            ________________________________

          • Xena says:

            I just stick with referring to him as “GZ” on this blog. In other places, I refer to him as Zimmermeth out of spite because a Zidiot let me know that she doesn’t like that.

    • cielo62 says:

      Whonoze~ I am hispanic and I don’t find this to be anti-hispanic at all! IF we were to be anti-hispanic, it would be “Hor-hay” instead of just the soft sounding Chorge! Sorry, but you ARE reading too much into it.

      ________________________________

      • Tzar says:

        I believe you are right
        this is still rather drole, in the humorous sense

        • PiranhaMom says:

          @Tzar,

          I think this weekend we’re all kind of looking for a little drollery, because our minds cannot encompass the horror we’re seeing.

          When the Professor wrote “Whore-hay” I thought, geez, what a great name for the brother. Then I thought, hmm, I’ve never had a pet nme for Robeert Jr. — why not “Pimperman?”

          But then I thought, naah, all the pimps would be writing in and complaining …

    • I don’t think it’s a problem because Jorge is pronounced Hor-hay in Spanish and the slur is to call him Whore-hay.

      Cheorge is the way he pronounced his own name.

      • whonoze says:

        “I certainly didn’t use the name Chorge as a racist slur.”
        I didn’t say you did. I said people who come to this blog will READ it as an ethnic slur. It’s not just me cielo62. I say that because I’ve noticed complaints about it elsewhere. And you’re hardly in a position to speak for all Hispanics. I have known Latinos that would find this very offensive.

        “Cheorge is the way he pronounced his own name.”

        Exactly. And “Chorge” would be pronounced ‘chore-hay.” Since the perfectly comprehensible “Cheorge” is available, there is no reason for anyone to use “Chorje” except to reference Zimmerman’s ethnicity. And associating that ethnicity with this asshole murderer is derogatory.

        What, it’s going to tax your fingers too much to type “Cheorge” instead of “Chorge”?? Are you serious?

        Burn your straw man SG2. I didn’t “demand” anything. I asked. (And I have never demanded or even just asked for a post to be deleted, BTW.) The Professor’s reply to my request split the question down the middle by saying he doesn’t have a problem with “Chorge,” but then using “Cheorge” himself. Because that is how fogen pronounces his name, and “Chorge” isn’t.

        • cielo62 says:

          Well whonoze, I haven’t seen anyone BUT you complain about this spelling, so I doubt that YOU are in a position to complain on behalf of all hispanics either. For my 2 cents worth, as a hispanic who works with hispanics, I know “derogatory” when it comes across my path, as either personal insult (like this case) or racist, in which case it would indeed be Whore-Hay.   Not that it affects me, I use “GZ” and always have, unless I called him Voldemort. I just take exception to being you “offended” when nothing is being used as a racial slur, and you take an awefully high horse that I don’t think is yours to ride.

          ________________________________

        • To clarify: I do not use either one and I do not believe either is derogatory or racist.

          Their common derivation is the way he pronounced his own name.

          I call him “the defendant” or “let-his-name-be-forgotten.”

          I will not intentionally utter or write his name.

          I am offended by the multiple endings tacked onto his last name because people used to taunt me that way when I was a kid, until I beat one of them bloody with my fists and had to be restrained by an adult to prevent me from stomping him to death.

          I find the practice juvenile and not at all funny.

          Sorry, I’m generally quite civilized, but this ongoing argument is beginning to irritate me.

          Don’t take it personally, whonoze.

          The argument just brought back some painful memories.

        • jm says:

          whonoze: “Professor’s reply to my request split the question down the middle by saying he doesn’t have a problem with “Chorge,” but then using “Cheorge” himself. Because that is how fogen pronounces his name, and “Chorge” isn’t.”

          George Zimmerman pronounces his name as Cheorge (3 syllables) and not Chorge (1 syllable) ???? And you want to argue/obsess about the letter E?

          I used to respect you but now I don’t and I certainly don’t care to argue with you about the letter E in Chorge. What a total disgusting waste.

      • Tzar says:

        this is getting a bit weird

    • Tzar says:

      hey man your yelling at people like they are children is a bit offensive…and racist…I think 😀

      ha ha ha ha
      I kill me

      • cielo62 says:

        Tzar~ that’s OK Tzar. You kill me, too. Maybe that’s why I’m upset with Whonoze; after all, this IS such a small issue. Most assuredly GZ’s nickname is NOTHING like what’s spewed over at TCTH, or even CNN in re: to Trayvon Martin. Were I to wish a TRUE ethnic slur upon GZ, I’m know I could do it IN SPANISH and few here would be the wiser.

        ________________________________

  16. grahase says:

    Good comment from Twitter just now — had these children died because of a toy sold, that toy would be off the market immediately!

  17. cielo62 says:

    >^.,^< I cried as I read this. HId in a closet until I could control myself. Didn't want to tell my students what had happened.

  18. William Walton says:

    The question I have is how did the killer get the two revolvers and high power rifle that he had. If his mother knew he had a mental problem, then why were the guns easily accesible to him? When I had the ranch, I would go from grazing lease to grazing lease with a holsterd pistol on the front seat of the pickup. The pistol was carried because of rattle snakes and coyotes. Never shot one but scared the “Hell” out of them when I fired it into the ground. The other problem I have is clips being able to hold excessive numbers of cartridges. We are not in a war zone. Shotguns in Texas have to be plugged back to hold only three shells. Since moving into town, I gave my firearms to my oldest son who is an attorney in Alaska. I do not need them as law enforcement is in town and streets are easily recognized. When living in the country, one had to depend on Sheriff dupities and hope they could find your location which most times they could not. Thus, in my opinion, there is no need for people living in a populated area to carry concealed hand guns.

  19. Ina says:

    What a terrible event again, and again in the US. My deepest condolences.

    Of course there are shootings with mass killings in other countries too, but not so many as in the US and the gun laws must therefore be one of the reasons this took place. How many shootings were actually stopped because someone had a gun to stop a potential killer? Is it really such a good thing to have a gun to protect yourself, if that same gun in the hands of someone else ( your own child! ) can kill so many?

  20. colin black says:

    JM……….It was reported that the 20-year-old son had so many mental issues that the mother took time off of work to be with him. I still don’t understand why she had guns around a person who, according to reports from neighbors, people who went to school with him and family friends, has been troubled all his life. This could be another case of a family’s denial of how severe the mental issues were, not unlike the Zimmerman family’s denial that Chorge is a remorseless murderer when they had clues all along, beginning with the molestation of his cousin, that Chorge was mentally unstable….,.,……..Its easy to have 20 / 20 hindsight in cases like this.Its obvious this Mothers love was strong .Twenty years ago she held her perfect little bunnndle of love in her arms.If anything an if possable her love motherly instinct to protect your child increased when it became obvious her little boy was special.She wouldnt have seen a threat.She would have seen a vulnrable wee boy.She then set about i m o dedicating her life around him .Her special boy I have no idea why she had guns at home.She worked with children an probaby had him in class close to her at work as he grew up.Her job gave her oppertunity to keep him close.This was done with intent as he needed special care an attention.So even if his later behavour seemed weird or outlandish to freinds an non family.Remember the Mother has had his behaveour drip drip fed his entire life..An by extention his life wants an needs became her purporse in life.Wouldnt suprise me if she spoiled her special boy.Theres an American sitcom called The Middle…As in the middle America where its supposeadly set.Any way its a Family Based sitcom.The strange janitor from scrubs is the Father.Much of the comedy revolves around the youngest son.Whom is Special with a capital S..Obvious nutjob but played by a brilliont actor at least a hope he s an actor.But its cute an endearing funny ok to laugh at the mentally odd as he is a child an harmless..MJ Named a son Blanket…This sittcom the writters decided to name this strange kid BRICK…get it brick ..Because he is a freakin genious a seven year old whom reads War And Peace for light reading.But is socialy inept with weird ticks main one being he repeats the last word he speaks under his breath. Kindda like the nameless one said frackin khoons…So what Im trying to say is anger from anyone towards the Mother is miss placed i m o her son hateing her caused this tragedy to happen .An he had more than enough hate for all of us.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      She was incredibly careless and I think if still alive, she should certainly face some sort of sanction for keeping weapons in their home. She contributed to this tragedy.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        My prayers include the Lanza family, though. Please don’t think I’m condemning them. May all beings be free from suffering.

      • Ina says:

        Maybe, just maybe, Adam forced his mother to hand him the gun?

        • jm says:

          Ina: “Maybe, just maybe, Adam forced his mother to hand him the gun?”

          Guns. Even if Adam forced his mother to give him the guns, the question remains why did she need these powerful weapons in her home knowing she had a mentally unstable son.

          Police reported today that they found evidence of a motive. They did not announce what the evidence was or what the motive is. I would think more may come out about the guns and the mental state of the killer from the police interviews with his older brother and his father.

  21. Judy75201 says:

    I am aware that if I could murder someone by merely snapping my fingers, I might have done so at one time or another. It’s a little harder to lift, aim, and pull the trigger of a gun, but I still think its comparable. It’s simply too easy.

  22. Jun says:

    Mentally ill person + access to the deadliest hand to hand combat weapon = massacre

    Mentally ill person + no access to the deadliest hand to hand combat weapon = some people might get hurt, but mentally ill person goes to asylum

  23. Faith says:

    JMHO deep background checks,medical history reports,insurance and taxes on guns and ammo are all excellent ideas and would probably help curb the sale of weapons. Maybe limit the number of guns a person can own.
    Question was Zimmerman on the meds when he applied for his carry permit? Is there a question on the application about drugs you’re taking. Some of the drugs he listed have side effects which can alter your mood.
    Question why did the mother of the Adam Lanza find it necessary to have not one but three guns in her home.

    • Jun says:

      He may not have had a permit actually. I read that he had a refund receipt for his alleged permit. The gun he had was Shellie’s.

    • PYorck says:

      On the other hand you have to be careful that you don’t encourage people to avoid treatment for manageable issues so that they can keep their guns.

    • Xena says:

      Question was Zimmerman on the meds when he applied for his carry permit?

      GZ said that he was diagnosed ADHD as a child.

      Most states search a data base using the social security number of the applicant when they apply for a license to own a gun. Mental health hospitals are required to report the SS numbers when there has been hospitalization. That is what most states go by. IOWs, a person can be treated by mental health professionals but if never hospitalized, they fly under the radar.

      So, ShelLIE purchased the gun and now I am wondering whether GZ was previously hospitalized for mental illness and why his fee for the CCL was returned to him.

  24. colin black says:

    Tzar..Tzar says:

    December 15, 2012 at 10:00 am

    Well technically they can just say buyer has been warned
    guns kill
    they knew that guns killed when they bought them

    non
    .,,,,Like the public health warning on a packet of cigarretes…Warning this weapon may lead to serious injury death mass killing sprees an increased feelings of omnipotence an the right to play God amongst some.Do not operate whilst under the influence of alchohol or drugs prescription or social.Keep out of the reach of children or demented spouces.Unless you have them in your sights..May also cause life time incarcerstion or death by lethal injection death by cop suiside an many many other fatal outcomes.

    • Malisha says:

      Colin Black, thank you for that comment.

      RIF: “Warning: This weapon may lead to serious injury, death, mass killing sprees, and increased feelings of omnipotence and the right to play God amongst some. Do not operate while under the influence of alcohol or drugs (prescription or social), or when under the influence of bigotry, hatred, racism, misogyny, compulsions to prove yourself better than others, or the desire to make others comply with your commands, wishes or desires. Keep out of the reach of children or demented spouses. Keep out of the reach of individuals who need to prove to the world that, contrary to the prevalent belief that they are “nothing,” they can have enormous effect upon their environments. Keep out of the reach of any person who may think he knows what is right for others; keep out of the reach of any person who may think his own version of reality must dominate the world and he has a right to enforce it. Come to think of it, do not use this product at all. Leave it on the shelf; do not purchase it; save your money. Go and be well. Good luck.

  25. colin black says:

    Xena Can I pipe in on the subject of statistics? There are Zidiots who like posting crime statistics about Blacks in prison. One of my problems with that is, for instance, the number of victims of murder is not represented in proportion to Whites serving time for murder. The same is true for robbery, particularly bank robbery.

    For example, if the Columbine shooters, Virginia Tech, NIU, the guy in Oregon and Adam Lanza had not killed themselves, were convicted and serving time in prison,they would each count as one prisoner, but look at the number of their victims!!!

    Thus, the way to keep statistics high for one racial group, but low for others, is for the killer to be killed by the police or kill themselves so that they do not become a prison statistic
    …………………………………………………………………Statistic an statistics an dammed lies as Winston Churchill once said to a dour woman whom acussed him of being drunk..He agreed with her an quipped in the morniing I will be sober again .Whilst you Madamme will remain ugly..Some stastictics are dammming though .Australia has a popualtion of around 20 million with just over a half a million of those Aborigial about 2 .3 percent 2., today of the total population.An yet they make up more than a quarter of the countrys prison system to this day aborigines in Australia are jailed at a higher rate than Back Africans jailed in S Africa dureing….APART HIDE…http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/law/aboriginal-prison-rates .

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Whites destroy the cultures of non-whites and then point fingers at the despair that turns into family dysfunction and crime.

      I can’t even articulate how thoroughly sad, bigoted, and useless this is.

    • gblock says:

      The statistic of percentage of blacks versus whites in prison (or aborigines versus whites in Australia) will also be affected by how long the sentences imposed on members of each group are for comparable crimes.

  26. grahase says:

    Cercando Luce made comment upthread

    And gun manufacturers can not held liable (I don’t know the legal term) for the damage their product causes. It is a kind of product-liability SYG.

    Tobacco Companies are now being HELD LIABLE for damage their product causes.

    Drug Companies are now being HELD LIABLE for damage their product causes.

    Just because firearm manufacturers are not now, does not mean it can NOT or should not change in the future.

  27. grahase says:

    Regarding mental illness and violent acts: Please remember, in a court of law, whether or not a person is tried depends on whether or not the accused is competent to stand trial. That means, does that person know the difference between right and wrong. If you are REALLY interested and want to read more, the source is given below:

    Remember Aurora:

    What are the root causes of seemingly random violence? Does mental illness provoke it or predispose people to harm others?

    Advocates for the mentally ill are faced with a deep dilemma each time extreme and deadly crimes are perpetrated by those with a mental illness. Obviously, such acts are not sane or normal; it beggars common sense to suggest that a person who is thinking straight would choose to kill or wound dozens of strangers. And yet most mentally ill people — even those with conditions that have been linked to violence, such as addictions and schizophrenia — are no threat to anyone other than themselves.

    http://healthland.time.com/2012/07/31/mass-murder-and-mental-illness-the-interplay-of-stigma-culture-and-disease/

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I agree, Grahase. There is a stigma. But the truth is that people with various types of mental and neurological disorders are sometimes more capable of commiting violent crimes than people who don’t have these. This doesn’t mean we should automatically assume that all people with these are dangerous, potential criminals. And we should never forget that most disorders are highly treatable.

      THere’s a discussion about this on CNN right now. In fact, some people who know Ryan Lanza are coming forward and saying they are surprised he was involved in these shootings.

      So we can’t blame the disorders directly . . . there are mitigating factors – our society is a violent one, guns are easy to get, people don’t always get all the help they need, we have a lot of exposure to violent video games and programs, people with these disabilities are often exposed to ridicule or have personal frustrations, and many other issues. Like everything else in life, this issue is complicated and deserves our compassion and people need to be educated about mental health issues and refrain from quick judgements.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I always worried more that my sons would hurt themselves as they sometimes expressed the wish to die to end their emotional ups and downs . . . we all have the potential to harm others, though, and must have a strong moral compass and constant vigilance to keep rein on our anger and other negative emotions.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      The “mental health” defense, however, doesn’t absolve the actor/accused of the need to face trial for their crimes, all it does is delay the trial, until such time as they are able to understand their offense and the process. It is not a “get out of jail free” card.

  28. Malisha says:

    Oh here’s a classic in the annals of the “Blame the Victim” mentality: Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, responded to the tragedy Friday evening:

    “Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands. Federal and state laws combined to insure that no teacher, no administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school where the children were murdered. This tragedy underscores the urgency of getting rid of gun bans in school zones. The only thing accomplished by gun-free zones is to insure that mass murderers can slay more before they are finally confronted by someone with a gun.”

    OK, this got me mad. This is reprehensible and somebody needs to give Larry Pratt a serious asskicking (no violence). Pratt would have it that we have to be prepared at all times to defend ourselves and each other from armed killers who at any moment may decide for reasons best known to themselves to kill us. Larry Pratt would have it that this should be taught in our schools from kindergarten (nay, nursery) on up; he would have it that the adults in charge of every children’s activity must be armed and dangerous so that they can “take down” the would-be murderers no matter what their job description is. He would have it that teachers must be prepared to defend children as police officers are allegedly prepared to defend citizens; nothing less bellicose and combative will do, for Mr. Pratt.

    Picture this: Lanza goes into the school. Does the principal draw a gun on him? Why Yes she Does, because she thinks, “Maybe he’s gonna draw a gun on ME and kill 20 kids.”

    That is the world Pratt wants us to live in.

    But what if: Lanza goes into the school. The principal does not draw on him because she thinks, “That’s a teacher’s son; why would I frighten him?” While this runs through her head, Lanza shoots her in the face and kills her. Then all the teachers immediately run for their guns and draw them, roaming around the school trying to figure out whom to shoot because they heard gunshots and a scream. Two of them enter the hall outside the principal’s office at the same time. One shoots the other. Lanza emerges and shoots the one who just shot the other. More teachers rush in with guns drawn, everybody shooting everybody else, and nobody is available to herd the children into closets, safe corners, keep them calm, shield them. They begin to run around in a wild panic…49 killed and Larry Pratt decides the gun-control guys are NOT to blame and DON’T have the blood of little children on their hands because there was a good and proper armed response.

    • Jun says:

      Everyone just shoot each other is Larry’s solution

      as much as I believe in self defense, that is idiotic

      why not do a preventive measure, so no one at all gets shot?

      It is the same as using a condom and practicing safe sex

      Even if everyone had a gun, the person whom killed all those kids and teachers, snuck in undetected and caught everyone off guard, so I do not know how they would be able to have shot the assailant in this case

      I would recommend security but that is not likely within the budget, or have police roll through the school area as well if that fits budget

      but the best solution would have been preventative measures

      The assailant in this case had mental problems and the mother of this individual just left her guns lying around… so..,

      • whonoze says:

        Don’t go by same day news reports, and don’t go by assumptions. ‘Mental Health Problems” is a hugely wide category. One report yesterday indicated that Lanza’s ‘mental problem’ was an autism spectrum disorder. If so, now everyone is going to think Aspie’s are all incipient mass murderers. This is a ludicrous post hoc fallacy, no more relevant than the fact that Lanza probably drank milk as a child. Shut down all the dairies! If we were talking about a specific diagnoses of paranoid schizophrenia, that would be one thing. But unless it can be established that Lanza had the specific type of ‘mental problems’ that are positively correlated with violent behavior, this issue shouldn’t even be discussed.

      • jm says:

        It was reported that the 20-year-old son had so many mental issues that the mother took time off of work to be with him. I still don’t understand why she had guns around a person who, according to reports from neighbors, people who went to school with him and family friends, has been troubled all his life. This could be another case of a family’s denial of how severe the mental issues were, not unlike the Zimmerman family’s denial that Chorge is a remorseless murderer when they had clues all along, beginning with the molestation of his cousin, that Chorge was mentally unstable.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          A requirement that she keep her guns secured, or face heavy fines or even jail time, her son might never have gotten his hands on guns so easily. That doesn’t mean he could not get guns elsewhere, but he may not have been up to the task, considering his troubles.

          • cielo62 says:

            Lonnie~ I read this morning that he had tried to acquire his own firearm earlier in the week, and was unable to do so. But no problem! Mom was a “gun enthusiast” and had 6 at home! Problem solved.

            ________________________________

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yep, license gun collectors by all means, since they have lots of weapons of a great variety. It’s not that we worry about them using them to commit crimes. What we worry about is someone else using their unsecured weapons to do things they’d never think of doing themselves. If she’d have had a safe room or something like that to secure her weapons, this event would have been delayed if not prevented entirely.

            Which is why I say that the first step is to put drastic requirements on gun holders, to ensure that they take strong measures to keep control of their weapons.

            My guess is if she knew she was going to face a 2 or 3 k fine, if one of her weapons turned up in someone elses hands, she’d have kept her guns under better and stronger security. I’d step it up to 3 to 6 k fine for 2nd event, then 30/60/90 days jail after that. That should be sufficient to get gun safes and other security measures deployed, cutting down the number of guns available to use through loss.

            Police and firefighter here in NYC can lose a months pay, just for losing their badge! And badges don’t kill people.

      • Tzar says:

        @whonoze
        yup they got many things dangerously wrong yesterday

      • Jun says:

        I disagree that mental health problems is not an indicator of danger. I would not leave anything sharp around a crazy person, so what makes you think I would want a gun around a crazy person? Yes, not all autistic people are crazy, but it sure is a good stepping point. I have dealt with autistic people and some are crazy people. Giving them a gun would just make killing much easier for them. If you are in the presence of anyone with a gun wanting to kill people, you are screwed.

      • whonoze says:

        @ jun

        Your ignorance and bigotry on mental health issues are disgusting. Get out of the 17th century and into the 21st.

      • Jun says:

        If you feel that it is impossible for a person with mental health problems to delve into crazy, then lets agree to disagree

        I have actually dealt with autistic and mentally handicapped patients and some of them were stone cold crazy and when they flipped out, we had to protect the other workers and patients, and they were incredibly strong so it would take more than 3 people to pin the person down

        It sounds like you truly have not dealt with any patients who had mental health issues

    • Tzar says:

      The gun lobby does not sleep

      Hours After Connecticut Kindergarten Shooting, Michigan GOP Calls For Allowing Guns In Schools

      Hours after the terrible shooting in a Newtown, Connecticut elementary school, the Michigan House Republicans issued demanded that Governor Rick Snyder (R) sign a bill that would make it easier for people to receive a gun permit and open up “gun free zones,” including schools. A statement attributed to Press Secretary Ari B. Adler shrugged off any link between guns in schools and school shootings:

      What happened in Connecticut, however, is not because of nor related in any way to actions taken by the Michigan House yesterday in approving Senate Bill 59. …

      It is the belief of many representatives in our caucus that it is criminals who have no intention of following any law that are the perpetrators of such heinous crimes as school shootings. Strict gun-control laws do not stop criminals from committing evil acts, they merely infringe on the rights of law-abiding citizens who might be able to take action against evil if given the chance.
      http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/14/1339761/hours-after-kindergarten-shooting-michigan-gop-calls-for-allowing-guns-in-schools/

      • Ronald Reagan was surrounded by armed Secret Service agents, but it didn’t stop a a guy from shooting him and Brady.
        Some of these people want the
        US to become the wild, wild west.

      • aussie says:

        This guy was NOT A CRIMINAL. Sure, ke killed a lot of people, and that is a crime. But criminals are people who commit crimes as a career, not someone who breaks one law once, on purpose or otherwise.
        A man in a bad mental state is not breaking a law on purpose — he is carrying out an act he feels compelled to do, without considering the legality or morality of it. He just looks at or feels the imperative of it.
        He may have kept every law up until then – buckled up his seat belt, stopped at every red light and correctly indicated his last turn into the school parking lot.

        YES making it impossible for him to get semi-automatic WOULD have resulted in fewer lives lost. Giving the teachers the right to carry such weapons themselves would have increased the body count.

        People who do this kind of thing are not criminals. They are mentally ill or unstable. Where is the funding for treatment for them?????? if they are too sick to work, where do they get the $1000 to $3000 a month for the drugs to make them safe???

        GET REAL you “lawmakers”. Sick people are not evil. Sick people are SICK.

        Oh, you guys don’t much believe in affordable health care. I forgot. Sorry. If he can’t pay his own way let him take it out on your children. Okay.

        Today is a say I am especially glad I live on the other side of the world, with sensible laws for guns and health both.

      • cielo62 says:

        Thank you aussie,. Well said.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        If they’re suggesting that, these Teachers and others, act in the stead of LEO’s then they’re going to have to provide them with the same training that LEO’s have, as a requirement to act in their stead. Why does that not seem a practical solution?

    • gbrbsb says:

      As per usual Malisha right on track!

  29. Tzar says:

    OK folks time for some web power
    there were 16 mass shootings in the US in 2012 (~90 dead)
    Let’s go from scratch
    can we analyze these shootings and figure out the following?
    1. how did the shooters get the weapons?
    2. were there signs that could have helped avoid the shootings
    3. what are the top 3 causes of these incidents
    4. please add more questions or ideas that can help tease out the truth

    although I am not adept at web research, I will look into the first one
    interested volunteers for the others are welcomed

    February 22, 2012—Five people were killed in at a Korean health spa in Norcross, Georgia, when a man got into an argument and opened fire inside the facility.

    February 26, 2012—Multiple gunmen began firing into a nightclub crown in Jackson, Tennessee, killing one person and injuring 20 others.

    February 27, 2012—Three students at Chardon High School in rural Ohio were killed when a classmate opened fire.

    March 8, 2012—Two people were killed and seven wounded at a psychiatric hospital in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, when a gunman entered the hospital with two semiautomatic handguns and began firing.

    March 31, 2012—A gunman opened fire on a crowd of mourners at a North Miami, Florida, funeral home, killing two people and injuring 12 others.

    April 2, 2012—A 43-year-old former student at Oikos University in Oakland, California, walked into his former school and killed seven people, “execution-style.” Three people were wounded.

    April 6, 2012—Two men went on a deadly shooting spree in Tulsa, Oklahoma, shooting black men at random in an apparently racially motivated attack. Three men died and two were wounded.

    May 29, 2012—A man in Seattle, Washington, opened fire in a coffee shop and killed five people and then himself.

    July 9, 2012—At a soccer tournament in Wilmington, Delaware, three people were killed, including a 16-year-old player and the event organizer, when multiple gunmen began firing shots, apparently targeting the organizer.

    July 20, 2012—James Holmes enters a midnight screening of The Dark Knight Rises and opens fire with a semi-automatic weapon; twelve people are killed and fifty-eight are wounded.

    August 5, 2012—A white supremacist and former Army veteran shot six people to death inside a Sikh temple in suburban Milwaukee, Wisconsin, before killing himself.

    August 14, 2012—Three people were killed at Texas A&M University when a 35-year-old man went on a shooting rampage; one of the dead was a police officer.

    September 27, 2012—A 36-year-old man who had just been laid off from Accent Signage Systems in Minneapolis, Minnesota, entered his former workplace and shot five people to death, and wounded three others before killing himself.

    October 21, 2012—45-year-old Radcliffe Frankin Haughton shot three women to death, including his wife, Zina Haughton, and injured four others at a spa in Brookfield, Wisconsin, before killing himself.

    December 11, 2012—A 22-year-old began shooting at random at a mall near Portland, Oregon, killing two people and then himself.

    December 14, 2012—One man, and possibly more, murders a reported twenty-six people at an elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, including twenty children, before killing himself.

    • Tzar says:

      I am cross posting this at JQ to see if there are any interested web sleuths

    • whonoze says:

      Lanza’s guns were legally purchased, and licensed to his mother.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        There’s a solution there – preventing parents of kids with mental disorders from keeping guns in their homes or perhaps permitting them to keep guns elsewhere or hidden from view in gun safes. With my kids’ disablities, it was always my choice to not have guns in our home, although I’m also a long-time pacifist and have never owned a gun and never will. However, I have trained and handled guns so I know how to shoot and how to handle them properly, just in case there should ever be a good reason to do so because of my work in public schools and in positions in city and county gov’t.

        Many people need to use far more wisdom and discernment with their firearms. My father kept hunting rifles and always kept them locked up out of sight and the ammunition in a separate place out of sight and locked up.

    • Tzar says:

      quick and dirty report on first shooting

      Shooting: Atlanta Spa shooting-2/22/12
      Deceased: 4+shooter by suicide (shooter and victims acquainted)

      1. Firearm:

      Not yet confirmed but appears legally owned via anecdote (see below)

      2. Signs of possible prevention

      – Court records from 2006 show that Jeong’s family was afraid of his violent tendencies

      – One of the victims, Jeong’s sister Kum Song, asked for a temporary protective order while he was serving a sentence for assaulting her. “I am concerned that he is becoming more threatening and wants to harm us with his guns. My brother has also threatened to commit suicide with his guns,” WSB reported she wrote to a judge.

      -Shooter had been prosecuted and acquited for previous shooting. The man authorities say slew his sisters and their husbands before killing himself at a suburban Atlanta spa appears to be the same person acquitted of killing three men in 1989 in Louisiana. Jefferson Parish officials confirmed that records show a man named Jeong Soo Paek was acquitted of the slayings in Metairie. In those slayings, Jeong was shot in the face and lost an eye. The file on the case was destroyed in 1994, officials said. The prosecution alleged Jeong shot himself three times in the neck and face — tearing out his right eye — in a suicide attempt soon after shootings.

      3. Top 3 causes
      -psychologically questionable gun owner
      -Gun owner with clear history of violence
      -Lack of intervention by State?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        February 22, 2012—Five people were killed in at a Korean health spa in Norcross, Georgia, when a man got into an argument and opened fire inside the facility.

        February 26, 2012—Multiple gunmen began firing into a nightclub crown in Jackson, Tennessee, killing one person and injuring 20 others.

        February 27, 2012—Three students at Chardon High School in rural Ohio were killed when a classmate opened fire.

        March 8, 2012—Two people were killed and seven wounded at a psychiatric hospital in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, when a gunman entered the hospital with two semiautomatic handguns and began firing.

        March 31, 2012—A gunman opened fire on a crowd of mourners at a North Miami, Florida, funeral home, killing two people and injuring 12 others.

        April 2, 2012—A 43-year-old former student at Oikos University in Oakland, California, walked into his former school and killed seven people, “execution-style.” Three people were wounded.

        April 6, 2012—Two men went on a deadly shooting spree in Tulsa, Oklahoma, shooting black men at random in an apparently racially motivated attack. Three men died and two were wounded.

        May 29, 2012—A man in Seattle, Washington, opened fire in a coffee shop and killed five people and then himself.

        July 9, 2012—At a soccer tournament in Wilmington, Delaware, three people were killed, including a 16-year-old player and the event organizer, when multiple gunmen began firing shots, apparently targeting the organizer.

        July 20, 2012—James Holmes enters a midnight screening of The Dark Knight Rises and opens fire with a semi-automatic weapon; twelve people are killed and fifty-eight are wounded.

        August 5, 2012—A white supremacist and former Army veteran shot six people to death inside a Sikh temple in suburban Milwaukee, Wisconsin, before killing himself.

        August 14, 2012—Three people were killed at Texas A&M University when a 35-year-old man went on a shooting rampage; one of the dead was a police officer.

        September 27, 2012—A 36-year-old man who had just been laid off from Accent Signage Systems in Minneapolis, Minnesota, entered his former workplace and shot five people to death, and wounded three others before killing himself.

        October 21, 2012—45-year-old Radcliffe Frankin Haughton shot three women to death, including his wife, Zina Haughton, and injured four others at a spa in Brookfield, Wisconsin, before killing himself.

        December 11, 2012—A 22-year-old began shooting at random at a mall near Portland, Oregon, killing two people and then himself.

        December 14, 2012—One man, and possibly more, murders a reported twenty-six people at an elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, including twenty children, before killing himself.

        http://www.thenation.com/blog/171774/fifteen-us-mass-shootings-happened-2012-84-dead

  30. Xena says:

    Just wondering — maybe it will eventually come out as more info is gathered and verified. The mother was a teacher at the school. She was found shot in the face at her residence. Was she on vacation and not suppose to report for work? Did she call in sick? Did she not just show up and the school didn’t worry about her absence?

    So many questions.

    The bodies of those murdered are still in that school building waiting until crime scene evidence is completed. If I were a parent whose child’s body was laying dead in that building in his or her own blood, I don’t know if I could stand it.

  31. grahase says:

    Alright then – 27 Amendments In the Constitution. Always room for another one or can there be an Amendment to an Amendment. I don’t know how your system works but it sounds good to me.

    • Xena says:

      Sovereign citizens do not recognize any constitutional amendment, accept the 14th Amendment when they want to kill descendants of former slaves.

      • Malisha says:

        How do they think the 14th Amendment gives them the right to kill African Americans? I don’t read it that way at all.

        • Xena says:

          How do they think the 14th Amendment gives them the right to kill African Americans? I don’t read it that way at all.

          Sovereign citizens denounce the first sentence of the 14 Amendment and believe to accept it is to make themselves equal to former slaves.

          As “sovereigns,” they believe in “common law,” and that means no written law, but law as they interpret it to fit the situation. Thus, a person who is a citizen pursuant to the first sentence of 14th Amendment, does not have equal rights to “natural born” citizens.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Grahase –
      Perhaps it may seem easy. Change to the federal constitution requires States’ approvals and must, of course, be “constitutional,” which the current US Supreme Court (SCOTUS) has decided the Second Amendment IS, despite its historic application that is inappropriate in a modern world.
      But harking back to those days, we should not tax-hand rolled Minie balls. I take that back. Too modern. Tax all ammo invented after 1791, when the Bill of Rights (the first ten Amendments) was passed.
      I know scuttling the Second Amendment may seem easy, from a distance. Yes, some kind of “easy” – like taking away the right to parlez Francais en la Province de Quebec, n’est-ce pas?
      Not that bilingualism ever killed anyone, but I want you to understand the emotion involved.
      There are guys who would let you cut off their cock before you took away their Glock.
      Perfectly reasonable attitude.
      If they had any confidence in their cock, they wouldn’t need a Glock.

    • gblock says:

      Abolishing an amendment through another amendment is possible in theory – the 18th amendment (prohibition) was abolished by the 21st amendment. An amendment could also, in theory, be modified through an amendment , just like anything else in the Constitution. However, passing an amendment is not easy to do, and abolishing or substantially limiting the 2nd amendment is not likely to be politically feasible at this time.

      • whonoze says:

        You have to start somewhere. Some Senator needs to have the balls to draft a reasonable alternative to the 2nd Amendment get co-sponsors, find a committee chair who will pass it out of committee, and then Harry Reid needs to have the balls to bring it up for a vote. Sure it would lose, but it would start a conversation we’re not even having now, and it would scare the shit out of Wayne Lapierre, showing that the NRA is losing its lock-grip on even the dialog about guns, not just legislation.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I doubt any legislator has the balls to do this – it’s political suicide. I hope I’m wrong.

      • Malisha says:

        If some public interest law organization comes in now and sues the gun owner’s estate, in a class action suit, for deprivation of the life interest of the children murdered Friday in Connecticut, and makes a constitutional argument, although the lawsuit would not net a penny for the victims, it would definitely make it to the US Supreme Court. If it did make it to the US Supreme Court, it would have the possibility of changing the law in a big way: (1) It would have the possibility of memorializing recognition and acknowledgement of the “life interest” which is not yet in the law; and (2) it could start to cause the necessity of insuring guns.

        • cielo62 says:

          Malisha~ I’m ALL for it!

          ________________________________

          • PiranhaMom says:

            @Malisha
            @Cielo

            How do we get this concept rolling? If we are entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, isn’t “life” = “life interest” and don’t we inherently have it?

            So it cannot be legally denied – but if it’s taken from us, isn’t our “estate” (survivors, et al) entitled to justice?

  32. grahase says:

    In the US Constitution, isn’t the second amendment just that – the second amendment.

    Logically this tells me there is room to amend the constitution. Why do those who hold the second amendment so dear believe it to be applicable today. Why do those who seek change believe the Constitution is etched in stone.

    How many AMENDMENTS are there in the Constitution.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Grahase – 27 Amendments

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Xena
      @Grahase

      With all the insurance companies whining about losing profits when Obamacare is the law of the land, what a SPLENDID opportunity for them to recoup these profits through gun liability insurance!

      Xena, LOVE THIS IDEA!

      • Xena says:

        Xena, LOVE THIS IDEA!

        Maybe we should start a letter writing campaign to all the governors and state Attorney Generals. If Attorney Generals write the Bill, it makes it faster through the state congress.

  33. grahase says:

    As Eric Michael Johnson writes for Scientific American, the biggest contributor to homicide in the U.S. is not mental illness, addictions or even the accessibility of guns. It’s economic disparity: the wider the gap between the rich and poor, the more violence a population breeds.

    The connections we have to one another — our social capital, our ability to seek and receive support from others — is the most important weapon we have against violence. These connections are put at risk when economic inequality rises. Studies show that social cohesion and trust drop when disparities between the rich and poor rise. Since markets rely on trust to function smoothly — and since distrust can provoke political paralysis and polarization — a vicious cycle can ensue.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      IMHO, the powers that be actually encourage all of the above.

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @ Grahase, thank you for the valuable statistics.
      @ Whonose, thanks for pointing out the limitations of ammunition in colonial days, and the personal labor involved in making it.

      With 300 million guns in the US at this time, what would “gun control” legislation do for our safety right now? We’ve got uncontrolled guns already.

      But with any kind of leadership, WE CAN TAX AMMO – NOW! Yes, there are hobbyists who “roll their own” but not enough to provide the plethora of ammunition flooding across store counters.

      HIGHEST TAXES go on ammunition for the most dangerous automatic weapons.
      But ALL AMMO gets taxed – hunting season, target practice, everything.

      How high the taxes? Figure out the cost of nationally-available MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT.

      EARMARK ALL AMMO TAX TO MENTAL HEALTH CARE.

      Then we can face down the NRA and start working on gun control legislation – starting with imported guns and illegal guns smuggled across our borders. Then require highly-regulated purchases directly from the US manufacturer, approved by an ATF officer on-site, only after a waiting period that includes an approved certificate signed by the purchaser’s chief local law enforcement officer.

      I am a gun owner. I want this.
      Because there have been too many Americans killed.
      Too many of these, children.

      Today, we are not America the Beautiful.
      If we do not face down the NRA, we are America the Gutless.

      • grahase says:

        I agree PiranhaMom. Smoking used to be commonplace – in the theater, on the buses, in the offices, and hospital rooms, etc. It became socially unacceptable and has taken years to change social behaviour toward the habit. What helped most, in my opinion, was to TAX the hell out of a package of cigarettes. Hit people in the pocket book. Some provinces provide smoking cessation aids free of charge because of socialized medical care. The government feels it is better (and cheaper) to assist those wanting or needing to quit now or pay for their health care needs later.

        Behaviours and social acceptability can change. Not through religion or politics – through social interaction and through the pocketbook. Tobacco Companies used to have a stronghold with the government Times have changed, though. Lawsuits and through people working together to change attitude.

        ps — Sadly, I am a Canadian smoker. Smoking 25 feet from a doorway (law) in 45 Below is an addiction, for sure. Cigarettes are the only thing that will get me out in a snow storm. Anyway, the cost of a package of cigarettes a day is equal to one weeks pay for me.

        Tax the ammo — Excellent suggestion.

        • Xena says:

          Make gun owners carry liability insurance and have to renew their licenses just like driver’s licenses — for a fee.

          Once insurance companies get involved, there will be better background checks too.

          Rates can be based on the type of firearm. For those designed for the sole purpose of killing humans, the rates should be more.

          Those convicted of committing a crime with the firearm, the state can file a claim with the insurance company to recover costs of prosecution.

      • grahase says:

        Xena – I think that is another good one. Insurance companies would probably jump at the chance for increased revenue and would sure assess liability premiums and eligibility. Man alive. Just this one blog has come up with some really good ideas already. Parents Against Fire Arm Violence. There just may be light at the end of the tunnel.

        Remember the days when graduation parties included heavy drinking then driving. How many times did we hear about driving fatalities.Now there are designated drivers (acceptable), parents willing to stay up all hours to drive parties home safely. There are always solutions. May not eliminate the problem completely. But, even one life saved is worth the concerted effort to change behaviour.

        • Xena says:

          Xena – I think that is another good one. Insurance companies would probably jump at the chance for increased revenue and would sure assess liability premiums and eligibility. Man alive. Just this one blog has come up with some really good ideas already. Parents Against Fire Arm Violence. There just may be light at the end of the tunnel.

          Yes, if the states made liability insurance mandatory for vehicles, they can make it mandatory for gun owners. And, just like car dealers, gun dealers won’t be able to sell without proof of insurance.

          Remember the days when graduation parties included heavy drinking then driving.

          Attended an all girl high school — we were ladies. 🙂 I get your drift. Dram shop law is getting some results in Illinois to hold drinking establishments responsible for serving intoxicated patrons who get behind the wheel. I know a bar owner who drives her patrons home, then gets up the next day to pick them up and drive them back to the bar to get their car.

          She called me a few times to help her and I obliged, but had to stop because the smell of intoxicated folks in a car can be overwhelming.

    • gblock says:

      “Remember the days when graduation parties included heavy drinking then driving.”

      The high school that my kids went to had semi-official all night graduation parties where they took the kids someplace and had stuff to keep them busy – my daughter’s graduating class went to Disneyland, my son’s class had a bunch of activities that included laser tag and other stuff – with no drinking or driving.

  34. grahase says:

    Here is everything you need to know about the U.S. firearms industry:

    31 billion – Economic impact of the firearms industry in 2011 in dollars.

    19 billion – Economic impact of the firearms industry in 2008 in dollars.

    4 billion – The number of dollars spent in annual commercial gun and ammunitions sales — a 20-year high.

    270 to 300 million – Estimated number of guns owned by Americans. That’s about one for every American citizen.

    Here is everything you need to know about the U.S. firearms industry:

    31 billion – Economic impact of the firearms industry in 2011 in dollars.

    19 billion – Economic impact of the firearms industry in 2008 in dollars.

    4 billion – The number of dollars spent in annual commercial gun and ammunitions sales — a 20-year high.

    270 to 300 million – Estimated number of guns owned by Americans. That’s about one for every American citizen.

    8.5 million – Number of background checks for gun sales in 2002.

    154,873 – The record number of background check calls the FBI reported receiving on Black Friday this year.

    700 to 2000 – Cost of a .223-calibre semi-automatic rifle, which some reports indicate was the type of firearm used in the attack in Newtown, CT.

    200 – Percent profit boost for gun makers since Obama was elected in 2008.

    96 – Percent of the $3 million that gun lobbyists donated during the 2012 election that went to Republicans.

    87 – Percent of children killed in the 23 wealthiest nations who are American.

    80 – Percent of gun deaths from the 23 wealthiest countries that are American deaths.

    78 – Percent of Americans who favoured making the sale of firearms “more strict” in 1990.

    62.8 – Percent of people who own guns in Wyoming, the state with the highest rate of gun ownership in the U.S.

    62 – Percent of 125 on-line sellers who said they “probably couldn’t pass a background check.”

    47 – Percent of Americans who report owning a gun.

    44 – Percent of Americans who favoured making the sale of firearms “more strict” in 2010.

    40 – 45 – Percent of U.S. households that own a gun.

    33 – Percent increase in Winchester’s ammunition sales since 2007.

    16.2 – Percent of people who own guns in Connecticut.

    4.44 – Percent that gun manufacturer Sturm, Ruger & Company’s stock fell on the day of the Newtown school shooting.

    1 – U.S.’s ranking in guns owned per 100 people.

    • Xena says:

      Can I pipe in on the subject of statistics? There are Zidiots who like posting crime statistics about Blacks in prison. One of my problems with that is, for instance, the number of victims of murder is not represented in proportion to Whites serving time for murder. The same is true for robbery, particularly bank robbery.

      For example, if the Columbine shooters, Virginia Tech, NIU, the guy in Oregon and Adam Lanza had not killed themselves, were convicted and serving time in prison,they would each count as one prisoner, but look at the number of their victims!!!

      Thus, the way to keep statistics high for one racial group, but low for others, is for the killer to be killed by the police or kill themselves so that they do not become a prison statistic.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      And gun manufacturers can not held liable (I don’t know the legal term) for the damage their product causes. It is a kind of product-liability SYG.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        If a reach for understanding is to be made, in an effort to reach reasonable conclusions, emotional rhetoric needs to be wound back for the sake of the exercise.

        They make a product for which there are uses, that is the base line.
        The next layer up is that this particular product is designed to kill.
        Since we have strict restrictions on how and when people can be legally killed. Obviously these products, designed to do so, need to be as strictly controlled as are the laws that prohibit killing.

        So then, there is the baseline framework within which gun control should be discussed. Obviously we don’t mean to take guns away from places, people and situations where they are legally and/or practically deployed.

        What we do need is a better understanding of when and how a gun or other weapon is being impractically/unlawfully possessed or deployed.

        The first thing that comes to mind is; Better control of the people who have and/or can legally own weapons. Since prohibition of weapons is impractical and leads to other problems, it is not a viable solution. Thus we need to enumerate the specific conditions surrounding gun/weapons possession. The “easiest piece on the board”, is requiring legal gun owners to either secure their weapons or face strong and/or escalating penalties for failure to do so.

        Gun owners who have legal reasons for ownership, are registered owners of these weapons and are easily accountable therefore. It is the persons who obtain these weapons from them, without their authorization, who are the most difficult to understand or control.

        A study of the histories of the lives of various weapons, how they move through society and how they are eventually used, will probably reveal other practical “checkpoints” that can be implemented.

        The thing is not to panic and seek to impose radical changes implied by emotional reaches without rational reasoning process to ensure that they will be effective. Because, unfortunately, nothing humans do is ever 100%. We should not expect 100% anything, but that doesn’t mean we should stop reaching for it.

      • gblock says:

        One thing that seems worth doing to me is to prohibit or severely restrict weapons that can shoot lots of bullets very quickly. They may be good for the military and maybe SWAT teams, but there is no good reason for most private citizens to have them.

  35. Fred & Crane~~I extend a ‘big’ thank you for putting up this post. I cannot seem to focus on much else today. I will leave this link for your perusal. It gives a bit of a summary of what went down today.

    Connecticut school shooting: 28 dead as massacre devastates Newtown

  36. Brandon Edwards‏@EdwardsOhio

    The National Rifle Association has taken down its facebook page in response to citizen response to the events in Newtown.

    _____________________

    The NRA doesn’t want to talk now.

  37. grahase says:

    Can you believe Fogens brother is using this tragedy to pander to the masses. Not condemning the use of guns – he calls the elephant in the room is mental illness care and treatment as the issue. He will be on Geraldo Saturday – please tune in.

    • Jun says:

      It is right though too because Fogen has a mental disease, as addition to gun control laws

      guns just make killing and maiming easier

      • grahase says:

        I can not believe that people are comfortable believing mental illness is the cause of the killings. Does it make it an easier pill to swallow. Does one NOT want to believe that every day people could possibly do horrific things.

        • jm says:

          grahase: “I can not believe that people are comfortable believing mental illness is the cause of the killings. Does it make it an easier pill to swallow. Does one NOT want to believe that every day people could possibly do horrific things.”

          IMO everyday people do bad things like cheating, lying, etc. But to take a life you have to be mentally unstable.

          I don’t think everyday people plan massacres and follow through on them. Just my humble opinion that you have to be “crazy” to want to kill as many people as you can who you don’t know and who have never done anything to you.

      • Jun says:

        I would not say it is the main factor, but it is one of the factors

    • Malisha says:

      It’s bizarre but it’s also offensive. Geraldo, of course, shamed himself mightily already with respect to his declaration that the killing of Trayvon Martin was attributable to African American parents dressing their kids wrong. Shame on him for that one. (His own kid was ashamed of him for that and said so publicly.) But also, the following:

      1. How did Robert Jr. get to be a big pundit? Via fraternal murder?

      2. Isn’t it obvious that he is now bringing his brother’s senseless murder of a child into focus to talk about another senseless child-murder public event?

      3. Is there any LOGICAL segue from one resentful self-appointed demigod murdering an African American kid walking while Black to one obviously deranged mother-killer shooting up a school terrorist-style? And if there IS, is it not obvious that the elephant in the room is NOT “mental illness” but GUN VIOLENCE?

      Shame on Junior; Shame on Geraldo; Shame on the gun lobby.

      • Jun says:

        I dont get that either but only Geraldo gave him any attention and I do not believe anyone really gives that piece of crap any attention anyways

        It does not involve his family or his brother so he would not defend it… if that selfish prick knew his brother did the Connecticut incident, he’d be blaming the kids, just like he is blaming Trayvon, and even went as far as claiming the screams were his brother, even though it sounds like a blood clot kid

        I despise that piece of crap and I sincerely hope he takes the stand and tells those big old lies, so he can go to prison for perjury

      • ^ 5 Malisha, I love your insightful posts. RZJR should quit while he is behind. He is only making matters worse. They are fast becoming the most hated “family”,in America. He is becoming a coattail rider and user of any tragic event that he can, and make it into something to do with his “family”. Who died and made him some “expert”, on anything?????He will do all of these public moments, to no avail. He will not change a thing. The outcome of his “brother’s” trial will be what it will be. He has no power or authority to change a thing that happens. He is a media whore, and he is his own pimp.

    • jm says:

      I couldn’t stomach RZ Jr and Geraldo together.

      The elephant in RZ Jr and family’s room is Chorge and his mental illness that is being swept under the carpet. It is obvious he had issues since molesting his cousin and family estrangement. Then there are the run-ins with the law, attacking his girlfriend and police officers

      To me the family who ignored all the signs of Chorge’s mental problems are partly responsible for Trayvon’s death, yet they insist on making Trayvon the villain who caused his own death.

      I am sick of all things Zimmerman and wish they would stay in hiding where they belong, not out of fear but they should be ashamed. Instead they are hoping to make a money and gain fame from the murder of Trayvon Martin. The lot of them are disgusting people.

      • Absolutely agree with you JM, to the inth power. They should be ashamed, and you are right, not out of fear.Which is quite obvious, they are not. That is just another money game that they are playing, with fogen as their pawn. Outrageous.

  38. jm says:

    This is so heartbreaking. I look at the Christmas gifts I have for the children in my life who are the same age as the children who have been killed by this monster and wonder how the parents are dealing with this. I just can’t imagine the pain they must be feeling.

    I have an honest question.

    As news comes out (I am watching CNBC primarily) the guns are alleged to have been registered to the murdered mother who has a son who is alleged to have a “personality disorder.”

    Why would one keep guns around someone who has a “personality disorder” and why would she need multiple guns?

    I am just wondering if this is a case of another family in denial of a family member who is mentally unbalanced who eventually acted out

    • This is so heartbreaking. I look at the Christmas gifts I have for the children in my life who are the same age as the children who have been killed by this monster and wonder how the parents are dealing with this. I just can’t imagine the pain they must be feeling.

      Too much to bear! **tears**

    • Two sides to a story says:

      @JM – Maybe some denial if the alleged disability is a personality disorder. I have two bipolar sons. I would not have have considerede having firearms in the house. In fact, I found a .22 rifle in a storage area of a house we bought and I had a friend dismantle it and take it away. And Bipolar is far more treatable than a personality disorder.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        *considered* = I’m tired and still sad!

      • grahase says:

        TSTAS – I have Bi-Polar Disorder and cringe every time someone commits a violent act and the media commentators say – possibly this murderer has BPD. As you well know, there is a stigma attached to mental illness and it is so important to me that my co-workers and acquaintances never, ever find out. Most would be shocked to experience the reaction when one is so-called outed. Right away, the believe you are a deranged murderer in waiting. Believe me, nothing could be further from the truth. BPD is a Mood Disorder and medication keeps one on a more even keel. Living with a Mood Disorder does not make you a murderer.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yes, Grahase. I agree with you completely – however people with BPD and other disorders do sometimes commit violent crimes and are more at risk of suicide. I and my sons feel this pain that you feel too, as does everyone in the family since there are a few others with BPD. I also have an autistic grandson and a cousin has a child with Aspergers.

        I cringe every time anyone with any mental disability is involved in a major crime. And as we well know, sometimes instead of committing crimes or suicide, people with BPD and other disorders are sometimes victims themselves. I live near a place where a young mentally ill man (schizophrenia was beaten by police without provocation (he was not creating a problem at the time, but was being harrassed by police) and died a few days later. Fortunately, they are charged with M2 and other crimes. Sometimes the victimization is more subtle – my youngest son has been the victim of discrimination in a small town by school officials and caused a great deal of unnecessary pain.

    • gblock says:

      As best I can tell, the “personality disorder” report is incorrect. I heard that he had Asperger’s syndrome and OCD. Neither of these is classified as a personality disorder. Asperger’s syndrome (or disorder), which they claimed was a “personality disorder” is classified as a developmental disability and is a form of “autistic spectrum” condition. I guess you could consider it to be a mild form of autism. People who have it generally are of anywhere from average to genius level intelligence, and are therefore usually able to take normal school classes. It is a lifelong condition that can cause social difficulties and other coping difficulties. And the social difficulties, where they exist, can cause unhappiness and even depression, as the person may be very bothered by their failure to relate to people, but not know how to fix the problem.

      By the way, my son, now age 21, has Asperger’s.

      • Nefertari05 says:

        My understanding is Asperger’s is going to be removed from the upcoming DSM V. There is much discussion going on currently, as to whether that is appropriate or not. Just an FYI note.

      • Malisha says:

        Asperger’s Syndrome is a very high-functioning form of autism. A person with AS will probably seem odd but that is about as much as you can tell about the person, given the diagnosis alone. One of my best friends, a kid I have taken care of on and off since he was a baby, has Asperger’s. He’s brilliant, creative, nice, sometimes considerate (when he thinks of it) and has at times amazed me with his very fine moral thinking and his kindness. Music Critic (past) of the Washington Post, Tim Page, wrote a book called “Parallel Play” about this, and has publicly demonstrated his excellence in many fields and many ways. I’m not saying that the Newtown shooter did NOT have Asperger’s, I’m just saying I don’t think the violent crime can be attributed to that condition.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I’m quite familiar with autism as my youngest grandson is autistic and I have a cousin with a son with Aspergers. I also served as a sub teacher for a decade and was often called to work in the Resource classrooms because of my personal experiences with differently abled kids. Oh, and most everyone in my family is ADD / ADHD, like Tugboat, and that includes me. So I cringe a bit when these disabilities are implicated in crimes, but unfortunately, these disabilities are sometimes connected to criminal behavior, like it or not. It is true that many and probably most people with these disabilities – or call them different abilities — are wonderful, beautiful, highly intelligent people, but it is equally true that some are troubled and have the ability to snap.

        May all beings be free from suffering.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        PS – Every human on this earth is capable of great compassion and great rage . . .

      • gblock says:

        Nefertari05 – What it looks like is that Aspergers will be removed from the DSM-5 as a separate diagnosis and folded into autistic spectrum disorders.

      • gblock says:

        I read that the shooter’s brother described him as having Asperger’s or a personality disorder. WTF? Does he not know what his own brother’s diagnosis was?

        • cielo62 says:

          Not necessarily. The parents divorced in 2008, and Ryan stayed with the dad. Consider what age Ryan must have been and ask yourself if YOU knew things about your siblings when you were young.

          ________________________________

      • gblock says:

        I saw a short news interview with some friends of Nancy Lanza in which they said that she told him Adam Lanza had Asperger’s. No surprise there, it’s what I’ve figured was the case all along.

        • cielo62 says:

          I feel that extreme nature if his social phobia went WAY beyond Aspergers. Sounds to me like an anxiety disorder.

          Sent from my iPod

          • jm says:

            Listening to Dr Drew trying to explain about certain people with mental issues who can’t feel empathy for others and act out. I don’t know what this kid had but it seems deeper than Asperger’s or anxiety. It seems he had pent up anger but instead of just shooting his mother and/or himself he went out of his way and took out his anger on the most vulnerable and innocent victims. There has to be something more than Asperger’s.

            I am sick that his mother was a “gun enthusiast” and actually took this sick person to shooting ranges so he could gain respect and maybe a love of guns like she had. Who does this? Was this another person in denial who could not bear to accept her son was mentally ill even though she had every sign that he was. According to reports she said he was getting worse and burning himself.

            Sorry I don’t even get why anyone would be “enthused” over guns and even more than that why this mother would expose a son with obvious mental issues over the years, getting worse by her own admission to friends, to a shooting range and guns. That’s just obscene and considering the outcome of her gun enthusiasm and exposing this kid to the guns and the shooting range, criminal.

      • jm says:

        Some of Nancy Lanza’s friends were interviewed on Today Show. They described Adam Lanza’s strange behavior

        What stood out to me is that the mother knew he was very troubled and yet took him to the shooting range to learn how to shoot. The friends explained Nancy Lanza was very responsible with her gun collection. Sorry but it boggles the mind that the mother would try to teach a troubled person how to shoot guns yet say she was responsible.

        http://todaynews.today.com/_news/2012/12/17/15968547-friend-nancy-lanza-was-very-devoted-to-her-sons?lite

      • gblock says:

        jm, apparently there are quite a few other conditions that people with Asperger’s are more prone to have, including ADHD, OCD, anxiety, and clinical depression. (Bipolar disorder is another. I know an 18-year-old young woman who has Asperger’s and bipolar disorder, which seems to run in her family.) It seems like he had some more severe problem than a lot of kids with Asperger’s. A lot of kids with Asperger’s do not have special aides in school assigned exclusively to them – apparently Adam Lanza did. And when he was a pre-teen, at an age where most kids are starting to be able to handle getting somewhat less supervision, his mother told a babysitter never to take his eyes off of Adam.

        The gun involvement is a difficult one for me to address. My husband is interested in guns (probably not as involved as Nancy Lanza was), has taken my son to the range to teach him to shoot, and my son rather likes guns and shooting also. One thing that was a big factor in this school shooting being so deadly was that he had semi-automatics with large clips, and lots of ammunition.

        It’s been reported that Nancy Lanza had been aware that Adam was becoming more troubled psychologically. The articles that I have seen do not indicate whether he was receiving psychological counseling and/or medication. In retrospect, that should have been a signal for her to put her guns where he could not get hold of them. Maybe she had just assumed that it would be OK because he had been taught gun safety, but guns and a troubled young person make a bad combination. Then again, despite what the NRA wants us to believe, a lot of gun owners are not really that careful with their guns.

  39. whonoze says:

    I will say what no public figure will. The 2nd Amendment is an absurd anachronism, and a constitutional amendment must be passed to limit the ownership of weapons to those that are reasonably appropriate to hunting and reasonable self-defense. Not just the sale, but also the possession of military weapons, including all automatic fire-arms, must be outlawed. Under the 2nd Amendment, any such legilation would clearly be unconstitutional, as its language specifically allows citizens to possess military weapons.

    The purpose of the 2nd Amendment was to allow citizen militias to be prepared to help repel a foreign invasion, as the US did not at the time maintain a large standing army. Of course, just such an invasion occurred in 1812, and the wisdom of the 2nd Amendment seemed validated. But when the 2nd Amendment was passed, not only did the repeating rifle not exist, rifles of any sort did not exist. The only firearms available were muzzle load muskets and pistols that used round balls fired through unrifled barrels. Aerodynamics being what it is, it was difficult to hit the broad hit of a barn with such guns, which meant they were fundamentally military weapons: you fire at a formation of the enemy, and with luck you might hit SOMEBODY.

    Modern firearms are lethal on a scale the founders could not have imagined in their wildest dreams. But the 2nd Amendment isn’t even about guns…

    The 2nd uses the term ‘arms’ not ‘firearms’. The Supreme Court has even ruled on this, declaring that ‘arms’ means ‘weapons.’ Which means that properly understood the 2nd should allow anyone to walk around with a flamethrower, rocket launcher, or tactical nuclear warhead. So what made sense 200 years ago is insane today. We have to get rid of THAT insanity.

    • I believe owning guns is stupid, but I do not know how to solve this nation’s gun fetish. I do know that prohibition only creates black markets that enrich people and organizations that produce, distribute and sell the black market products.

      Prohibition is not the answer and neither is open or concealed carry.

      If things keep going the way they are, I’m going to get me a tank.

      • jm says:

        Professor: : Prohibition is not the answer and neither is open or concealed carry.”

        For those who feel the need to carry a weapon, I think they should be forced to have open carry. What is the point in concealed carry? If you feel the need to carry a gun why not advertise it?

      • Judy75201 says:

        However, those markets tend to prey on themselves. It’s entirely too easy for unfit people to acquire or have access to guns. I am lately leaning toward stringent controls of gun ownership.

      • Tzar says:

        but I do not know how to solve this nation’s gun fetish

        I will give you a hint (based on my opinion of course): what product gets the most free and sexy advertising in the US?
        For an answer one only need look at a few movie posters and tv shows. The majority of what consciousness shaping material we consume involves the gun as the sine qua non symbol of power. Worse yet, over the last 10 years it has infiltrated the world of our children through a myriad of first person shooters that get realer and realer, the pentagon can now charge you to desensitize and quite possibly train your kids, to killing and to kill, respectively. AND THE ULTIMATE WORSE are the sci-fi’s (movies and games), with their glorious space faring technologies-warp drives, transporters and food abracadabras- all honed to the purpose of killing, our kids are now being robbed of the ability to imagine a peaceful future. No more hunger, No more energy crisis, oodles and oodles of space real estate…well guess what you will still have something to fight about.

        I say start with science-fictions that imagine peace and its causes, gloriously and boringly devoid of internecine strifes, rancid with quests for pleasure and knowledge, placidly satisfied with the tabula rasa life that awaits the human brush of purpose or simply awaits nothing.

        Then maybe tomorrow’s kids will desire and work for tomorrow’s future today .

        .

      • Tee says:

        Professor, I think that this country need to change its gun laws. You are right, prohibition is not the answer I think that it should not be easier to get a registered gun than to register to vote. This year republicans went through every registered voter in Florida To make sure that they had not committed a crime, they were in fact citizen ect. If they can go through all of that for an election surely the government can do that and more before they issue a gun permit. Ie.

        1). Put an age limit on owing a gun. No one under 30yrs of age should own a gun, young people do stupid things when they feel like their life is not worth living.

        2). There should be a required mental health check up with written documentation stating that the person is mentally sound and can be allowed to own a gun.

        3). There should be no one allowed to own a gun if they have any Criminal history especially a violent history down to “assaulting an officer without violence, GZ.”

        4). A person owing a gun is required have the gun locked away if said gun is found by a child or left out and is stolen the owner would be held responsible for whatever crime that is committed with that gun just as we are held responsible for our animals that attack others.

        5). We should have to be made to have our guns insured as we are made to have our dangerous dogs insured.

        These stipulations may deter a lot of folks from just going out and buying a gun just because they could. They may not fix all of the problems and sure shootings will still occur but things like this may just be lessen. People like GZ wouldn’t be able to just go purchase a gun and if he use his wife gun she would be held accountable for the crime for failing to keep her gun in a Protected and secure place.

      • Tzar says:

        tee I like your ideas
        also we can just get rid of the damn things completely, all they do is kill.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        What has worked up until now is, swift and certain justice for shooters. Since that has been relaxed, more people have less fear of even having guns around. That, IMO is where the danger comes from, because it’s not the owner that uses the gun, it’s more likely someone who gains control of the weapons illegally.

        To get a gun a person should need to be psychologically screened and then seriously trained. They must be held to account if their weapons are lost or stolen, a serious fine will do for the first time or two, then perhaps some jail time after that. If they don’t feel they can secure their weapon, they’ll probably choose not to have one.

        We also have to have some recognition of the problems, that people in rural/remote area face, where LE may not be able to reach them in time to provide a reasonable defense. We know that prohibition doesn’t work, but we’ve also seen that strict restrictions do. Put up “no gun zones” around schools and other public places, with heavy penalties to match, and watch the number of people who carry guns into these area drop. Also, today’s technology can make guns gps traceable, so that LEO’s can see if a gun is being carried into a prohibited zone. If it’s authorized then fine, if it’s not then treat it as a serious matter.

      • Malisha says:

        I remember laughing with a bunch of girlfriends one time about he differences between men and women. I remember the most significant thing I heard at that pow-wow:

        “Now a woman, when she gets mad she’s gonna act CRAZY and everybody’ll say, ‘she’s CRAZY! But the man, when he gets mad you gotto look out because he’s gonna kill somebody.”

        And I have been thinking about that joking sentence for probably two decades now. It’s not REALLY an empty observation. Not that there are not plenty of crazy men or plenty of women killers, but female anger is regarded as crazy, and male anger is regarded as dangerous. And male anger often IS dangerous.

        Don’t take any of this personally, guys. IJS :mrgreen:

    • Xena says:

      The purpose of the 2nd Amendment was to allow citizen militias to be prepared to help repel a foreign invasion, as the US did not at the time maintain a large standing army. Of course, just such an invasion occurred in 1812, and the wisdom of the 2nd Amendment seemed validated.

      EXACTLY! It was also to protect homes from being taken over by invading armies.

      • Rachael says:

        Exactly:

        *A well regulated militia,* being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        “Well-regulated” should be the constitutional basis, in the 2nd Amendment, for gun control!

    • gblock says:

      I’ve read arguments by 2nd amendment buffs that much of the purpose of the citizen militias was to be able to rise up and overthrow the US government if it became tyrannical. What’s more, a lot of them seemed to believe that this was actually still an important argument for keeping the 2nd amendment. Now, how well do any of you believe this would work in today’s world if people actually tried it? I don’t think I was very successful in trying to convince them that the 1st amendment rights to free speech and press, combined with voting rights, were actually far more relevant.

    • sdunn5 says:

      Wow Whonoze imagine I just read your comment regarding the 2nd ammendment: arms not firearms. You get it completely. Thank you for your post.

  40. ladystclaire says:

    I wonder what the gun lobby and NRA think about this, as well as those who support the *murderer* of another American child. these people and their guns have got to go. this is the second such shooting this week. something has got to be done and, I mean *NOW* this kind of BS is making this country look more and more like a third world every time one of these shootings happen. two of the guns were registered to the shooters mother, who is among his victims.

  41. Xena says:

    While we’re praying, please remember the medical and law enforcement personnel in Newtown, CT.

    On 911, my son was in the military and his civil engineering unit was deployed to NY city. As an only child, he was not deployed — it was declared a war zone. It was not long before I became the mother of the unit. Grown men, trained and sworn to protect America from enemies foreign and domestic, called to share what they saw as they recovered bodies. It’s not easy on them.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      An only child– there will be only children among the victims, like Jordan Davis, their family trees cut off for no reason but for guns.

  42. colin black says:

    Faith the people doing thease mass spree shootings are not eminateing from thease poor ungodly people you think have taken over your countrys morals .In truth they are the most diss possed powerless people in your Nation whom dont even register to vote .They barely have money for rent uttilliys food .Cant afford bullets an guns.The majority of spree killers come from stable middle class backgounds.Hinkley attempt assasin of Reagan an Brady..The Columbine shooters .Recently this Robret Holmes guy another mega wealthy upper echelon family.

    • gblock says:

      I think that you’re thinking of James Holmes, and his family wasn’t “mega wealthy”, although they were certainly very well off.

  43. Judy75201 says:

    The easier it is to kill, the more murders there are. It’s insanity.

  44. Xena says:

    13 years, and here we are again. When will we learn?

    • ladystclaire says:

      @Xena, that was a very sad and moving tribute to those who died at Columbine High School in 1999. you ask, “when will we learn” that is a question that I would like to know the answer to. as long as the gun laws are as lax as they are now, this is going to continue ti happen. the song tears in heaven, makes me think of my parents and sister when I hear it. not that I don’t think about them at any other time because, I do. this time of year is the worse for me. I miss them so much.

      • Xena says:

        you ask, “when will we learn” that is a question that I would like to know the answer to. as long as the gun laws are as lax as they are now, this is going to continue ti happen.

        Ladystclaire, thank you for sharing. I too have lost members of my family — none through murder. Losing them to sickness when you know they are going to die is sad enough. I can’t imagine what it’s like to have the lives of loved ones cut short by hateful human beings.

        When will we learn? Well, whether people believe Jesus is God incarnate, or a Prophet, or great teacher, he said clean the inside of the cup first, then the outside will be clean as well. The short answer — we will not learn until our hearts are cleaned from all unrighteousness.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        My Buddhist teacher always said when we asked about trying to comprehend incomprehensible violence was that we rid our own hearts of hatred first.

        • Xena says:

          My Buddhist teacher always said when we asked about trying to comprehend incomprehensible violence was that we rid our own hearts of hatred first.

          Yes. Everything produce according to its own kind. That is not just dogs giving birth to dogs; humans giving birth to humans, etc. We are known by our words and actions.

          There is a Native American story;
          One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people.He said, “My son, the battle is between
          two “wolves” inside us all.

          One is Evil.
          It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies,false pride, superiority, and ego.

          The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.”

          The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: “Which wolf wins?”

          The old Cherokee simply replied,
          “The one you feed.”

        • Yes, I agree.

          We need to teach people how to understand and manage, rather than suppress and control their emotions, and we need to teach them how to use their brains.

  45. Xena says:

    Violations. Violation of life. Violation of buildings where people are to be entertained, or shop, or learn. Violation of families. Violation of trust. Violation of courage — sure, kill others and kill yourself — lower those prison statistics. Violation of innocence. Violation of freedom. Violation against humanity.

  46. Faith says:

    I’m sure I’ll be jumped on but this country has for the most part given up it’s christian beliefs. Families are broken by adultery,drugs,abuse and a total lack of morals. Many today have no respect for themselves let alone respect for anyone else,including the law. We have babies having babies living in poverty because they aren’t prepared for earning an honest living. Once believing in God is removed from one’s thinking there is no end to their immorality. This nation is in the process of losing everything this country was founded on, a love of God,freedom to worship,honor for the law and punishment for those who broke those laws. When I was growing up we had respect for the law and what it stood for.
    BTW I was abused as a child,but never struck back at my abuser or told anyone. If your upbringing is an excuse I should have been a serial killer.
    There were no free handouts so I had to earn a living and I chose to earn a honest living. I made a great many mistakes but I never took anyone’s life.
    I do pray for the leaders of this country that they will be encouraged to find a solution to the problem of child killing children and other problems in this country.

    Okay I’m off my soap box.

    • Xena says:

      @Faith. First, I’m not going to jump on you.
      Once believing in God is removed from one’s thinking there is no end to their immorality.

      Not everyone who says they are Christian express the nature and ways of Jesus Christ. Some of the most vicious attacks that I have suffered and endured were and are perpetrated by people who say they are Christian.

      It’s not about religion. It’s about heart. It’s not getting into the personal lives of others, but having God in our own personal life that makes the difference.

    • Malisha says:

      Nobody’s jumping on you, Faith.

      I’m sorry you were abused. I’m glad you chose to make yourself good in spite of it; that’s credit to you. Some abused people actually become abusers. There are statistics and blah blah blah but they are not people, they are just numbers.

      You say, “Once believing in God is removed from one’s thinking there is no end to their immorality.” I would come in here with my own comment, though. Morality is not dependent upon belief in God; nor is belief in God any kind of inoculation against immorality. Throughout history there have been plenty of people who were very firm believers, and who nevertheless did some pretty horrible things. Immoral things. And throughout history there have been plenty of people who were righteous and moral and just and who did not believe in God. My maternal grandfather was one, and I am another.

    • grahase says:

      I wont jump on you either. But, there have been more wars and deaths over religion than due to any other cause.

    • Jun says:

      I disagree that disbelief in God causes harm. A prime example are priests who have been caught molesting and raping children. I was brought up both a buddhist and a christian, that also grew up with Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, and there have been times that I have felt to be athiest. During my stints into athiesm, I have never done anything truly criminal, and although I am not a saint, I do not consider myself satan’s minion in any way shape or form. No matter your religion and what you believe, it is all about your morality and how you go about it, and it should not be a discerning factor that could make one immoral.

      • Malisha says:

        Jun, have you read Life of Pi? Fabulous piece of work. The movie is not the same as the book but has a few of its elements in it and is visually very beautiful. Let’s say the book is Yann Martel’s book and the movie is Ang Lee’s movie.

      • Jun says:

        I actually met one of the people in production and he bought a Dodge Challenger off of me. I have never checked it out yet but I heard that it was well done and Ang Lee is a very visual person so I can see him bringing out the book, but in a vastly different direction. I have been meaning to check that out and James Bond Skyfall.

    • gblock says:

      Faith, I think that you have been brainwashed into thinking that being a moral person is dependent on having “Christian beliefs”. It’s totally untrue. Being moral does not depend on believing in God, let alone being Christian. Many of the founding fathers were deists and not Christians – so contrary to what you’ve probably been led to believe, Christianity is not the original basis of this country. I would say that freedom of belief and worship has actually shown a gradual expansion with time, as there is more acceptance now than in the past of non-Christian religions, although a lot of people still have trouble with the Islam religion, for instance.

    • Faith….Why do Christians believe that a person can’t be moral, decent, ethical or “good for goodness sake” unless, like a child, they are promised a reward (eternal life, etc.) or threatened with a punishment (eternal damnation, etc.)?…in other words, unless they are religious and believe in God??? I would rather teach a child ethics and philosophy. I’m not anti-religious but, I’ve seen too many hypocrites…..just take a look at the Treehouse gang. I’ve known people, who are agnostic or atheist, whose level of ethics, morals, and compassion are greater than those of the so-called Christians I’ve known.

      • cielo62 says:

        Faith….Why do Christians believe that a person can’t be moral, decent, ethical or “good for goodness sake” unless, like a child, they are promised a reward (eternal life, etc.) or threatened with a punishment (eternal damnation, etc.)?…Too many christian groups feel they have the patent on being righteous, just, moral and decent. I have learned to not equate religion with spirituality. By and large, I don’t trust religions. But I see by a person’s behavior what spiritual path they have chosen. The teacher I respected (and loved)the most was a RC nun. My best friend is an Orthodox Jew. Me? I’m a Wiccan.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Funny thing is, we don’t hear of Atheist going on these rampages, if they did, I’m quite sure the front pages of the nation would go off on a real tear. Think about it! Atheist don’t wage wars.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      It’s not children killing children though. It’s guns, and prayer doesn’t work against guns.

  47. Sky News Newsdesk‏@SkyNewsBreak

    The Queen has sent a message to U.S. President Obama saying she is “deeply shocked and saddened” to hear of the shooting in Connecticut

    • looneydoone says:

      In addition to condolences, perhaps leaders of more civilized nations should announce an immediate travel ban to the USA, or at the least “travel advisory’s” warning of the dangers (much as your State Dept is so quick to do) That will get the attention of your lawmakers !

      • YES! that’s the best idea i’ve ever heard to make law makers finally fix this gun problem!! i hope the other countries get the memo.

        you know ever since drunk W (and the war), Europeans have totally disrespected us in the US. they call us uncivilized cowboys.and it’s not really getting better.

  48. Lonnie Starr says:

    I have no idea what to say.

    But wait! When the 2nd amendment was passed this was a very different country in a very different world. We were then, far from “the most powerful nation on earth”, and we did have reason to worry that, we might very well lose our country, to people coming across the boarders with weapons.

    Today, however, things are much different. As “the most powerful nation on earth”, we hardly have a need for a militia, now that we’re defended by nuclear weapons, satellites in space, drones and robotic weapons etc., soldiers with night vision goggles and other high tech communications and superior super sonic air cover, capable of wiping entire cities off the map in mere minutes.

    So, it there is any threat to American freedoms today, it comes from inside the US, rather than outside. It would come in the form of legislators handing absolute power to gov’t agencies and/or actors. Against which threats, an educated public is the only rational national defense. The “enemy without” won’t even try it, the risks are far too high, the returns far too low, but the “enemy within” is only seeking the power to subject the people to oppression, while they take the fruits of our labors for themselves to enjoy. They seek to use the gov’t’s powers to take from the poor and give to the rich. Creating, thereby, a class of privileged Royalty in Nobel style. Instead of letting gov’t work to keep Americans healthy, happy and unified.

    The less than reasonable support of a dogmatic view of the 2nd Amendment, not tailored to the realities of this brave new world, is putting deadly weapons into the hands of those who are so deranged, they can no longer see any value in human life itself.
    Not even their own.

  49. heartofhearts says:

    I read a comment by Andy Borowitz on facebook today:

    “Maybe I’m a dreamer, but I wish mental health care were as easy to get as, say, a gun.”

    My heartfelt prayers to all who were involved in this senseless tragedy.

  50. Rachel ‏@CraneStation
    Judge in Zimmerman murder trial to hear his defamation lawsuit against NBC | The Raw Story http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/14/judge-in-zimmerman-murder-trial-to-hear-his-defamation-lawsuit-against-nbc/#.UMupkDrEWcE.twitter
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    • Two sides to a story says:

      Karmic justice. God’s plan!

      • Co -Sign! Lady Karma! Also did everyone notice how the fogen disrespected Judge Nelson?? “All Rise”, and he sat there like a potted palm, texting on his phone. Really???? Everyone else stood, including his lawyers. He is leading them around by the nose, and they both looked totally dejected. Houston we have a “big problem” in the Z-Camp. You can best believe that Judge Nelson noticed this, and I am betting that he was trying to set her up, like this is going to work twice. I bet behind closed doors, she brought this to O”Mara and co. attention. She is not the average bear, and we will not see this chastisement, but chastise she did. She is not going anywhere Fogen, so you need to go to plan F.

  51. The hospital’s 4 trauma stations in the ER were “bracing for scores of injured…and they didn’t arrive.”

  52. Malisha says:

    So the shooter wanted to murder his family.
    So his mother was a teacher.
    So he included a bunch of kids in the deal: why not?
    One murder is equal to 27, 44…
    On Jonathan Turley’s thread, just before I heard about this school shooting, I was reading a comment put up by a blogger there who uses the name “BarkinDog” and he has always insisted that Fogen did no harm because Trayvon Martin was not a “choirboy.” It’s kind of weird because in other ways that same blogger is quite rational. But he’s just apeshit about how horrible Trayvon Martin was and how he deserved to be killed; he came off as a mad dog. I gave him the old newspaper over the nose a few times and then forgot about him. Just this afternoon I saw this insane comment:

    “Zimmerman had a perfect right to follow this perp on a dark street and to carry a loaded weapon. The punk is dead because he attacked Zimmerman. I want someone watching out for my safety and property in my neighborhood and I dont want hoodies creeping around stealing and mugging. If you have ever lived in a neighborhood that “went South” then you might know where I am coming from and know where I am not going back to. Punks slingking around in the dark make life in America miserable. This dead guy has a family with a whining lawyer who is praying for a conviction so that they can sue the homeowners association and steal some more money.”

    And then it hit me. I analyzed old BarkinDog, even though it’s not nice to analyze folks when you haven’t got a degree (I haven’t) and when you’re posting on-line (I am) and when even if you had a degree you haven’t done an actual evaluation and clinical interview. But hey, what the Hell.

    BarkinDog is angry. He feels that he has been abused. He is miserable. He is resentful. And he doesn’t realize that his own personal sorrows, as valid as they may be, are really not a proper cause for him to be able to lash out and hurt others. Now I trust that this blogger has never actually gone out there and killed an African American youth HIMSELF; maybe that’s what he would like to do but you can bet he would not like to be “cage-trained” by the Department of Corrections in whatever godforsaken state he is living in misery IN.

    It is the people who become convinced that their own valid complaints against the “others” are so important that whatever they choose to do to “get back at those others” is right and just. It is the people who never graduate past their three-year-old tantrums when they shriek, “I’M GONNA KILL YOU!” because they don’t get another chocolate brownie — or more admiration — or blanket permission — or money — or respect — or worship — or a beautiful woman to control — or a square-jawed handsome man to kiss the ground they walk on — or a two-car garage and a house with a green lawn and a picket fence — or a spiffy uniform and a badge.

    BarkinDog is just as angry that Trayvon Martin defended himself against rather than bowing down to Fogen that he cannot see the boundaries between his own indignation and the structure of the “person in society.” He cannot see that Trayvon Martin has nothing to do with his dissatisfaction, his grudges from having had to live in a slum where he was “miserable,” or whatever mistreatment he received or felt he received. He is the world. He has a right to be what the world should have made him.

    This shooter who’s dead now after having killed his family? I have no doubt something terrible was done to him. What could I have done, YESTERDAY, to remedy that? What could any of these children or their parents have done, YESTERDAY, to remedy that? Whatever happened to all the people angry enough to hate and kill whomever they identify as perps, punks, and creeping slinking hoodies — what could I have done about that YESTERDAY? 😥

    • Jun says:

      So

      Trayvon, walking while black, who wrote graffiti on a locker, deserved to be stalked, harassed, attacked, but was not allowed to defend himself, and on top of screaming for help, did not even attack the defendant, was murdered by the defendant, and that is OKAY?

      So basically people want to live under a Gestapo rule, where just because you do not look right according to their eyes, they can stalk, attack and shoot you?

      To me it sounds like this individual wants to revert back to Jim Crow laws… where you can just shoot any darkie, for “the boy was not lookin’ right”

      LMAO it sounds like people I have argued with, whom want to argue that it was okay for Fogen to follow, and then they argue that it is not stalking

      • Malisha says:

        It was not technically “stalking.” It was preparing a murder.

        Just like the shooter in Connecticut was not committing a trespass. He was preparing many murders.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I’m pretty certain now that GZ wore his wounds from home to the hunt. I don’t think that the purpose of him doing so, was to commit a murder. That would have been an unnecessary murder for what he probably had planned. Of course, if it was proven that he created the wounds before hand, that could also be used as evidence of premeditated murder. I wouldn’t go that far, unless and until evidence appears that this was some kind of initiation.

          That will be difficult to prove because, anyone else involved, would be guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, whether or not that was the plan, the evidence would be the same and it would be way too strong to stay a jurors hand.

          We do know that many black lives were taken, as part of racist conspiracies, even if the shooters did not actually engage with other racist to formulate a coherent plan, they created a favorable atmosphere for such things to happen within, by expounding on how “forgivable” it would be to them.

          What we do have here is, enough information to know that GZ did not act alone in fashioning the prelude to this act. We have a group of supporters who are close enough to be of assistance to him. We know that these supporters have the skills and wherewithal to have aided and abetted him, and we know they were prejudiced enough towards blacks, to wish blacks ill will. All that’s missing is the evidence that they actually collaborated together.

      • Jun says:

        I believe even legally, it fits the definition of aggravated stalking because Fogen did repeatedly and continuous follow and harass Trayvon as well as make a credible threat against him, in addition to murder and as well as the dictionary rendition of the meaning

      • Jun says:

        But I also agree that it is one of the fine points of murder

      • Jun says:

        I def agree that premeditation would be difficult to do, however, I feel it was, even if the wounds were not brought forth there

        Because if you look at the evidence, he saw Trayvon and made a plan of action to stalk and follow the boy, as he was his intended target

        I believe his original plan was to get Trayvon near his car, however, due to the math of action and reaction, Trayvon took notice, and decided to get away from the creepy stranger stalking him in a car, who happens to be the defendant in this case

        Then Trayvon ran, and this foiled Fogenhats’ original plan of action, so being an irrational person, whom jumps to unreasonable conclusions based on dementia, gets the dimly lit bulb of an idea to not let the kid get away, and was even advised by the police that it was unnecessary

        Fogenhats disregarded, and he wanted this “asshole” to not get away, and this “fucking coons” or “fuckin punks” or whatever the hell he said, especially since he was walking around looking about, looking black, therefore he was on drugs or something, and he was a black male with his hands in his waist band, a late teen

        He continued his pursuance of the kid, the stalking of this kid, the chase

        The dispatch attempted to DE-escalate the situation and offered to meet him in the opposite direction from which Fogenhats was running, but Fogenhats disregarded, and went in the same direction as Trayvon, an unarmed 17 year old kid

        Soon Fogenhats sees his intended victim to catch, so he tells the cops to call him when they get here, and he starts running or skipping fast down the back pathway toward Trayvon, catches up to him and then starts chasing him north as Trayvon tried running in a different direction than he was already going

        He soon catches up and confronts the worn out kid, and starts threatening the kid, by asking him what he was doing here, as if Trayvon did not have a right to walk down a public street in his neighborhood

        Fogenhats lunges at the victim, and Trayvon tries yelling for help, and says GET OFF and repeats it (and is even picked up by a 911 call)

        Witnesses start calling 911 and little did Fogenhats know, witness 18 had been watching since the confrontation and knew the Trayvon was in trouble and called police

        Fogenhats knew the kid was causing a scene because he wanted a quiet crime, like all his other crimes, and the police were coming and he did not want to be seen with his gun out with a screaming kid he had control of

        Fogenhats decides then, hey, this kid could get me in trouble and he is just an asshole and a fucking coon, according to his words, so he shuts him up and shoots the kid, and throws the kid facedown and asphyxiates him by sitting his over 200 pounds on the shot kid’s back, pinning the victim facedown, and then started molesting the kid’s body by rubbing his hands all over the kid

        I think he premeditated then and there to murder the kid, when he saw he was gonna get in trouble and then he started staging his injuries but that will be hard to prove but I believe it was a premeditated murder

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Well said, Malisha. You deserve many honorary degrees.

    • People like this will probably argue that, hey, the CT gunman was just innocently minding his own business carrying a Glock, a Sig-Sauer and a rifle into a kindergarten- no law says you can’t…but then…a five-year-old attacked him.

      • aussie says:

        Not so. I’ve red criticism that the school was recently made into a NO GUN ZONE…. therefore the teachers were not armed, otherwise they could have shot the guy dead, sooner than he shot himself.

        Yeah, bring High Noon into every kindergarten. Good one.

        How many could he kill with a knife? a baseball bat? before someone takes it off him? problem with a gun is, it is a long-distance weapon. It can stop anyone still too far away to take it off the shooter. Not so with knives or bats.

        At the very least, for God’s sake America, stop all and sundry getting hold of automatic and semi-automatic weapons. You have NO terrorist attack to fear, no foreign invasion to fear. All the terror you are bringing upon your own heads – and the heads of your babies. GROW UP and STOP IT.

    • grahase says:

      Take away easy access to the guns that allow acting on impulse. How is the CTH folk going to justify the killing of these babies. Are they going to thugify them. No. They will focus on the animal who killed them and blame mental illness.

      Come on folks — get to the root cause. Some people need alcohol to have courage to act big and brave. Others use guns. Why do you think Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms are lumped into one department. All three can and sometimes are a danger to society – not just to the individual who possesses them.

    • Beautiful Malisha, and well thought out. I saw his comment also, and I could not have analyzed him better than you just did. My heart is aching for those babies and their parents. Gun Ban Now. :_((((((

  53. Jun says:

    Watch the Zidiot nation come to defend this… their excuse is that now kids should all have guns and learn to stand their ground

    Did you know the USA has over 10,000 gun caused homicides a year?

    • Bill Taylor says:

      NO, there is not ONE “gun caused” death EVER NEVER has been….guns are inanimate and to blame the gun shows LUNACY.

      • jm says:

        Bill Taylor: “NO, there is not ONE “gun caused” death EVER NEVER has been….guns are inanimate and to blame the gun shows LUNACY.”

        I actually blame the killer with the gun. There are obviously some depraved people who own guns. Without the gun, would they go on massive killing sprees and do the damage the murderer did today?

        Would George Zimmerman gotten out of his car and tracked down Trayvon Martin without the gun?

        Cowards with guns are much braver and do much more irreversible damage in a short period of time.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        You’re so wrong. Guns and the numbers of guns in this country make mass murder far too easy.

        I’m disgusted by this attitude. I’m disgusted by progressives like Jeralyn Merrit who promote this nonsense. She has the right to free speech on her blog, however she’s over there saying this isn’t about guns, it’s about the children and violence.

        Jeralyn and Bill, this horrific event is about many things, and GUNS and the way we relate to GUNS in this country are a MAJOR ISSUE.

      • Jun says:

        A bullet propelled from the combustive gunpowder, invented by the Chinese, from a firearm, held by a human being, is the cause of homicides

        They are deaths caused with a gun, just as there are deaths caused by a knife, blunt force trauma etc.

        Get out of here with that nonsensical BS

      • Two sides to a story says:

        No, I will not “get out of here with my nonsensical BS” nor should I.

        I am a 60-year-old American who has witnessed decades of suffering caused by increasingly lax gun laws and the increasing ease with which US citizens buy guns.

        Guns and gun lawas are part of the problem and must be part of the dialogue. There were recent attacks on childrens in Chinese schools with knives. These traumatized children are alive. The children in Connecticut are in body bags.

        To Jeralyn Merrit’s credit, she opened a thread where gun control and solutions are being aired, but she did that after the fact when commenters refused to stop commenting about guns in the first thread. So excuse my rant about her, but people who believe that guns have nothing to do with this need to be pushed to open their eyes, hearts, and minds.

        Statistics and the corresponding laws about guns and nujmbers of guns in various countries around the world speak for themselves – http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

        • jm says:

          TSTAS: “…… people who believe that guns have nothing to do with this need to be pushed to open their eyes, hearts, and minds.”

          It is not even logical to think that this much devastation could be done without a gun.

          Guns make cowards brave and these cowards do things they would not have done without owning the gun, 2 cases in point is this latest tragedy in Connecticut and the George Zimmerman case.

          Interestingly, I just heard on CNBC that the murderer of the children in Connecticut mother’s bought 2 of the guns. Lesson I took from this is you never know when the gun owner’s weapons can be turned on you by a deranged family member. Are you paying attention Zimmerman family?

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Sorry, but I can’t figure out what this data means, because it’s not adjusted for population. Obviously you can’t have tens of thousands of murders by guns, if the nation doesn’t have more than tens of thousands of people. So, just giving gross numbers is meaningless.

      • JUN says:

        TwoSides

        I was not talking to you.

        I feel the action of not placing any blame on guns at all is nonsensical BS

        So speak to your heart’s content

        My opinion is still that the easy access to guns is the problem

      • JUN says:

        sorry for the confusion

        my original reply was considering Bill Taylor as nonsensical BC

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Sorry Jun. I misunderstood and get pretty jumpy. This incident today is just too much. I’ve been wondering since long before Columbine how many lives need to be senselessly lost until Americans revisit gun control and how the 2nd amendment should be interpreted today. It seems to me that this issue has reached an entirely new low. As has the medical insurance question, which is inextricably linked – we need to all have access to mental health care.

      • Jun says:

        “a well regulated militia necessary to the security of the free state, the right to bear arms shall not not be infringed”

        Even the second amendment does not solely state that you can have a gun as there are other issues attached in the amendment

      • grahase says:

        Bill Taylor – what is it going to take for you to realize this is wrong. It is not a legal or political issue. It is a moral issue, a societal issue. So, if this is your idea of egging on debate — now is not the time! For gods sake – babies are dead because this guy used legally obtained guns and they were not used for hunting or protecting property.

      • grahase says:

        Bill Taylor — shut up today. Do not try to defend an inanimate object.

      • groans says:

        How foolish you sound, Bill Taylor. “Not ONE ‘gun caused’ death EVER?” … REALLY?!?!

        Well, here’s just ONE example that shoots your bizarre assertion down (no pun intended – but pretty darned funny, eh?): Trayvon Martin.

        The medical examiner, who is highly and specifically trained to determine causes of death (which I’m guessing you’re not, based on your statement), wrote on his/her death certificate worksheet: “Cause of death: Gunshot Wound of Chest.”

        There are dozens of other such “gun caused” deaths every single day in the U.S.

        Your assumption that “inanimate objects” are incapable of causing death is absurd. Think about knives, storms, lightening, tree limbs, floods, tobacco, cyanide, radiation, and SO MANY OTHER inanimate objects that cause death.

        Guns do kill, sir. In fact, that’s precisely what they are designed to do.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The real kicker here is, although most guns are not purchased for the purpose, or with the intention of causing a death by the owner, who seeks it merely for defensive or recreational purposes… It is these guns that wind up in the hands of others who do cause deaths.

      • Dennis says:

        @Two sides to a story

        People are going to find a way to commit mass murder even if they can’t find a gun. A person with a knife at a crowed event could easily kill 10-20 people before the police arrive. Gun bans like in the U.K. do not work which is evidenced by the 100%+ increase in gun crime. Making something illegal won’t make it stop. The sick person who killed these children sure wasn’t concerned about the law when he committed this horrible act. You may actually want to consider purchasing a gun since Obama aka Barry is bringing this country to the brink of civil war.

      • cielo62 says:

        Two Sides~ I agree with you `100%. The easy availability of guns plus the insane romatization of guns and violence, are the chief causes of gun violence in America. MAYBE you decide to get a gun “for self defense” and yet it’s there when, in a druken rage you decide to shoot your wife or friend or child or even yourself. Maybe the drunken rage wasn’t avoidable, but shooting someone IS, if that gun just isn’t there. Buying guns should be hard and expensive, like buying a car. There should be insurance requirements attached, so that anybody accidently hurt or killed by it can get paid. Hence the insurance will be high as well. Background checks should equal to entrace requirements for the police department, or becoming a school teacher (pretty strict). I find the easy access to be insane! The shooter at Virginia Tech HAD mental illness ALREADY DOCUMENTED and yet he was able to legally buy weapons!! THAT HAS GOT TO STOP!

      • cielo62 says:

        to Dennis~ Honestly, you shoud STFU. With a KNIFE, a body of people could disarm the attacker before he could damage more than 2 people, TOPS! But a guy with a gun?? Nope, he could easily kill 20 times that number in the time it would take to disarm someone with a knife, or club, or even flame thrower! Don’t be so amazingly stupid. It doesn’t become you. Guns and nothing but the GUNS, make mass killings possible in ways that other weapons (short of bombs) ever could.

      • gblock says:

        “You may actually want to consider purchasing a gun since Obama aka Barry is bringing this country to the brink of civil war.”

        Dennis, who have you been listening to – Rush LImbaugh? President Obama has been trying his very best for the last 4 years to hold this country together economically, and the right wing nuts have done everything possible to try to convince their brainless followers that Obama is an evil socialist trying to destroy the nation. If there is anything tearing this country apart, it is the evil rhetoric of those who can’t accept an African-American as our president.

        • Xena says:

          In private industry, what the Republicans have done since 2008 would be called constructive termination. But it didn’t work and Barack Obama was re-elected. Maybe this time around since they don’t have worry about Obama running for re-election, they may come to their senses and realize that their personal dislikes and agendas caused problems for this nation.

          Maybe. Just maybe.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Unbelievable that there are people still saying all that needs to happen is for everyone to be armed. *walks away muttering*

    • Jun says:

      according to data,the US has the highest amount of gun homicides a year, at over 10,000

    • They are already out and spewing. The outhouse, of course, is making fun of Obama’s heartfelt speech, claiming his tears were only crocodile tears….and also, no surprise, condemning gun control.

    • @JM

      “Last year, handguns killed
      48 people in Japan,
      8 in Great Britain,
      34 in Switzerland,
      52 in Canada,
      58 in Israel,
      21 in Sweden,
      42 in West Germany,
      10,728 in the United States.

      When I was stationed in Japan, it was so surreal not to hear on the tube over there about drive by shootings and mass and spree killings. “NO gun owner is part of a “well regulated militia” or in today’s terms the US Military. The militia they speak of back then was for the STATE, not the states, meaning there be ONE militia for the country as in US Military. Now sure some members of the military do own their own guns though they ARE part of a well regulated militia so we’ll just exclude them for now.

      No this kid wasn’t a member and neither is any other civilian. No none of them are well regulated in the least and they intended these “arms” to come to the assitance of the country, not perpetrate cimes on the citizens. The only people who should have auto or semi auto weapons and military gears is……. the military. The police in this country have adopted WAY too many paramilitary gear and weapons and bad attitudes as this has escalated.

      Regardless, my point is all the “gun rights” people seem to think they have an overriding right over all others which couldn’t be more wrong. They should be coming up with ideas and acceptance of the was their beloved 2nd actually SAYS.”

      At least the family of the killer has come out and stated how sorry they are about what transpired and their hearts go out to the victims of this massacre. Unlike another family who spews BS and lies and maligns the kid that their son murdered in cold blood.

  54. Glock, Sig Sauer and a .223 rifle….Why?

    • cielo62 says:

      Mom was a “gun collector.”

    • PiranhaMom says:

      @Rachel and all our dear and heartbroken, compassionate friends.

      “Why?”

      Obvious to me: the only way she could reach out into her son’s world. And ask any shrink versed in the MO of killing: shooting in the face denotes a deep and personal hatred; a killer consumed with hatred.

      Please, please go to us.glock.com/ and see what they have built their message on.

      The “opening scene” with the guys in the shades, charging at you.

      AKA, “Glock … for the testosteronally challenged”

      You will see what we are all up against. What parents worldwide are up against.

  55. Cercando Luce says:

    Last year a man shot his wife in front of our elementary school with all the parents waiting for the kids and the preschoolers waiting to exit. This made page 5 of the statewide newspaper. When we first moved here I read every day for a week in the local paper about one gun death after another, including a 15-year old staying at his friend’s house, and a woman, her 3rd grader and neighbor. No one even writes about it, just shakes their head. No one dares say anything. People would sooner publicly blaspheme than say anything about gun law faults because it is socially more acceptable, politically more correct.

    • Tzar says:

      People would sooner publicly blaspheme than say anything about gun law faults because it is socially more acceptable, politically more correct

      This is a long timed and patiently engineered reaction
      you can see the sock puppets and shills for the gun lobby responding on the blogs today too

  56. He stepped out for a moment, I will try to update the spelling in the title, tax for you patience.

  57. Sooo incredibly horrible. Why shoot little innocent kids? I pray for those poor parents. My heart goes out to them. I shed tears for them. Father, help them through this.

  58. bettykath says:

    I don’t think we have enough information to say much except omg, how could this happen?

  59. esentrick says:

    follow

    • Linda says:

      When words fail, summon the cello.

    • Operacarla says:

      OMG… Puccini manages to sooth all of our souls and to take us to the level of civility that would result in peacefulness…some talents have no words…Giacomo takes us there..he also would have been able to see through to BS which is GZ…civility and beauty are incompatible with Fogen…sin, muck, lies, offence and a beautiful young dead child.!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GZ and his family make me sick!

  60. colin black says:

    After a similar event in the U K Dumblane the goverment moved swiftly to ban the type of hand gun used ..I would hate to live in a country where guns an ammunition are readly availablle to all.Includeing mentaly unstable dangerous people…Hoboken anothef scene of crime his Fathers body found there.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      It’s about time the US adopted at least some of more sensible laws of Britain in regard to guns and self-defense.

      • gbrbsb says:

        Oh, two sides, from the bottom of my heart I would as a UK gal say yes to that if we hadn´t had Dunblane… the shooter here killed 16 kids and one adult!

        But of course, it is worse over in US, guns are extremely difficult to get hold of here, more so after Dunblane, and from what I see much too easy to get hold of them over there. And in the UK we don´t have this so called “precious” right to bear arms… but nor do I want one because if I ever thought my single life was more important than the risk to the lives of others, especially children, or even to that of one single child, I personally I would prefer to die and they can inherit the earth (I am not religious but what Jesus said was true). I never bore children, I never thought I would make a good parent coming from the very difficult family background that was my own, but I am absolutely 100% sure of one thing, our children, and yes I include myself there, are as Kahilil Gibran wrote, not anyone´s children but children of life itself and today was the saddest day for humanity not only for the children lost but also for a young man who saw himself in the position to play God.

        As a reminder:

        On Children (Kahlil Gibran)

        Your children are not your children.
        They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.
        They come through you but not from you,
        And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

        You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
        For they have their own thoughts.
        You may house their bodies but not their souls,
        For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
        which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
        You may strive to be like them,
        but seek not to make them like you.
        For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

        You are the bows from which your children
        as living arrows are sent forth.
        The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
        and He bends you with His might
        that His arrows may go swift and far.
        Let your bending in the archer’s hand be for gladness;
        For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
        so He loves also the bow that is stable.

      • cielo62 says:

        Thank you gbrbsb. I posted that beautiful poem to my facebook page.

    • Dennis says:

      Gun control has been an absolute failure in not just the U.K., but other countries as well. Gun crimes more than doubled in the 6 years following the handgun ban. However, guns should not be allowed into the hands of criminals convicted of violent crimes and also mentally ill people. Gun bans only give the criminals more incentive and less fear to break into your house while you are home. In a situation like that, the police are never going to arrive in time to save you.

      • cielo62 says:

        Respectfully, you are full of caca.

      • truthforlisa says:

        I completely agree with you, Dennis. This is why I fully believe in the right to bear arms, and the right to conceal and carry, too.

      • cielo62 says:

        Guns are just too easy to get. I do not believe in a citizen’s right to own multiple high powered weapons, and I emphatically DON’T believe in conceal carry. On tv and in movies you always know who the ” good guys” are. In reality, when people start shooting the LAST thing we need is other bystanders adding to the carnage by shooting even more bystanders! In Texas a few months back some wanna be hero numb nuts decided to “stop” a burglary in progress. Instead he ended up killing the clerk! No thanks! Steal the nights profits but leave people alive. I only hope that moron has turned in his CCW.

  61. Tzar says:

    Robert Herrick. 1591–1674

    252. To Daffodils

    FAIR daffodils, we weep to see
    You haste away so soon;
    As yet the early-rising sun
    Has not attain’d his noon.
    Stay, stay 5
    Until the hasting day
    Has run
    But to the evensong;
    And, having pray’d together, we
    Will go with you along. 10

    We have short time to stay, as you,
    We have as short a spring;
    As quick a growth to meet decay,
    As you, or anything.
    We die 15
    As your hours do, and dry
    Away
    Like to the summer’s rain;
    Or as the pearls of morning’s dew,
    Ne’er to be found again. 20

  62. type1juve says:

    It’s so very sad that we can not send our children to school without fear of them being gunned down. No matter where you stand on gun control, we have got to do better America!

  63. Rachael says:

    The father and a brother are dead in NJ, his girlfriend is missing, his mother is a kindergarten teacher at the school – she is dead and her class is “unaccounted for.” A brother was questioned and is in custody.

    Someone said something about a note and a tape but I don’t have any verification of that yet, and there is no note that would ever make me understand this. That class was a KINDERGARTEN class – babies!!! Whatever issue he had with his family, why take out other people’s babies?!!!!

  64. rayvenwolf says:

    My heart goes out to all the families involved. Unfortunately nothing these days surprises me anymore. Not the savagery of other humans(The NH couple that abused the female half’s 3 year old) to just down right ignorance(GZ supporters). 20+ lives are gone and many more ruined because someone was having a bad f’n day.

    As a mother I just want to homeschool my son.
    As an adult who was a kid when columbine happened and every other school shooting since then – this has become all too common.

    I’m now gonna go give my kid a call and then go pick up his contribution to a coat/toy drive I am going to later.

  65. jm says:

    The killer shot his parents as well.

    Obscene, ugly, evil people who attack innocent children with guns and cause so much pain and suffering.

  66. Xena says:

    I’ve just heard about this. One shooter is dead and the other has been taken into custody. Both were young, brothers. Adam Lanza, age 20, was found dead on the scene. The President held a press conference. It was hard for him to hold tears back.

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