I write today to express concern and remind everyone that we must remain on the high road.
There is a natural human tendency to retaliate in kind when attacked.
Yes, I am dismayed by the reprehensible disregard for the truth and below-the-belt tactics that the defendant, his defense team, and their supporters use on a daily basis to misrepresent the evidence, promote the defendant’s false narrative, and demonize Trayvon, his parents, Benjamin Crump, Natalie Jackson, Dee Dee and anyone who supports justice for Trayvon.
We are better than that and we have truth and justice on our side.
We are mature adults.
We are responsible for the choices we make and the acts we commit.
We should never demonize or taunt anyone and that includes the pathetic defendant.
They will know us by what we do.
Remember that before you publish your comment.
Frederick Leatherman
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
I second the motion.
@ladystclaire:
Exccllent post as always! Yes, I also do not think it was appropriate for Angela Corey to pray with Ms. Fulton and Mr. Martin. I am a very spiritual individual myself, who does my own share of praying from time to time, but praying has no business in the affairs of the State. The State represents the victim, and that is what she should have told them, all the while, vigorously telling them that she would do her best to seek justice for their son with the evidence that she hss gathered and will continue to gather. That would been much more appropriate. I may have some posters who disagree with me, but praying with victims family and then stating informing the public? That was totally inappropriate IMO. The family are very religious, but we need to keep religion out othe affairs of the State. She was not in church. Why would she do that? Did she do this with other family members who lose a loved one? I don’t get that whatsoever.
Corey is good at theater too.
I heard of an Army CID guy who used to get down on his knees and pray with the suspects so they would confess. He said there was no better way to get a confession than to pray with them, and especially if HE, the agent, shed tears during that prayer, he could get confessions! I was of course appalled. But he had a great success rate with all kinds of crimes, and most of the time, the courts martial didn’t have to actually hear all the evidence and rule; the defendants pled!
No as to why Corey would pray with the victim’s parents? I think it was for her own image. To make her look so serious and passionate to the public.
I’d agree, but why is it taking so long to bring this matter to SCOTUS? Some states have had SYG laws for quite some time now.
Because until an injured party brings it up, it just sits there.
They should have checked with me first.
THere is a section of the SYG law that is absolutely and without any doubt UNCONSTITUTIONAL and that is that no civil suits can be brought against someone if he gets out of the CRIMINAL charge on a SYG. Here is exactly why that is unconstitutional.
Criminal charges are brought by a prosecutor who is a state employee and who has pretty close to absolute discretion to bring charges or not to. That is not subject to review. The state must make its case “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
Civil suits are brought by individuals who have a First Amendment right to petition their government for redress of wrongs. They don’t need to convince any prosecutor of anything before they sue. They have a right to sue and should have a right to make their case by “preponderance of the evidence.”
The prosecutor does not represent the injured party in a crime; he represents the PEOPLE.
An injured party has his own right of action against someone who harmed him, whether the harm was a crime or not.
Look at the OJ Simpson case: Same act led to acquittal in criminal court but recovery in civil court. That is constitutional.
Taking away someone’s private cause of action when they are not parties to the legal proceedings that give rise to their loss of that private cause of action, and cannot make decisions about how to prosecute that cause of action, denies civil litigants who feel they have been harmed the right to petition their government (the courts) for redress of wrongs. A single judge rules on a single motion without a jury and takes away a cause of action from civil litigants in a process THEY WERE NOT PARTIES IN? Even the principle of res judicata says THEY HAVE TO BE PARTIES in order for their rights of action to be alienated.
It’s unconstitutional. The first time some good lawyers take this up it’s got to get heard and the first time it gets heard there’s going to be a mighty fight in this country that will go to the SCOTUS: 100 amicus briefs will go in, including all the crazy gun-rights folks and the skinheads and the corporations who want private murder rights and folks like Fogen who already believed they had them. 👿
Actually, if you read closely, it says for the “use of force” which the defendant is claiming for the gunshot. There are other issues to get at him. As well, the statute is only for state, it does not control federal, so they can civilly go at the defendant federally, or even criminally go at the defendant federally.
http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/dual-sovereignty-doctrine/
Both state and federal have murder laws
=)
I dont think the defendant will get past the state but he is not going anywhere
For those who were doubting my assertion regarding the shadows
Here is a pic I took of myself
As you can see, there is a shadow on the right side of my face and there is a shadow under the chin
It is a dead giveaway
Now here is the alleged defendant’s photo, side by side with his police station photos
as you can see, there is no shadow on the defendant’s face, where it should be
Look at the T shirt. It does not look like the same one. Look at the seam about 1/4 inch down….it’s not there on the other pic. The color is different. There is a vertical seam at about the 3 o’clock position on one and not on the other.
LMAO I did not notice the shirt discrepancy until you noted it. It does look bluish compared to the grey.
Can’t argue actual documented “Proof”
LMAO if you look at the defendant’s photoshop, they put the shadow on the wrong parts of the face. They put a slight shadow on the left side of his face
They need a better computer geek. Maybe a HS student this time around.
New Post Up:
Tomorrow is Motion Day in the Trayvon Martin Murder Case
704 comments!!! omg!! lets make it a 1000!!! we can do it 🙂
article regarding Jordan Davis
http://www.news4jax.com/news/Hundreds-walk-for-Jordan-Davis/-/475880/17705102/-/rasu6kz/-/index.html
State’s Response to Zimmerman’s Motion to Compel Evidence from Third Party
@ SouthernGirl, i was just looking for that! thank you doll 🙂
You’re welcome. The response was blistering!
ohhh i can’t wait!lol i need some good news!
Bernie was not going for the nonsense. He came out swinging. Sweet!
@SouthernGirl2
Mr. Crump represents Trayvon Martin’s family.
This is, of course, perfectly permissable:
” the dead annot cry out for justice: it is
a duty of the living to do so for them.”
Lois Mcmaster Bujold, Diplomatic Immunity, 2002
BOY OH BOY. Bernie did come out swinging, damn good. Thanks for posting State’s Response. Go Bernie!!
Fogens appears to be written by someone who took at least 7 years to fail a legal class and the States Response prepared by BDLR was clearly written by an intelligent, experienced expert in his field.
Very very true. On the money, with that motion.
And every lie they spew they will be slapped with in the face with.
Like Pacquiao going down in the fifth round. BLAMO!
very Good ! But I’ll add going down for 10 seconds and going down for 30+ years is a bit different. Just Sayin’……….
I stand corrected my friend.
Oh no, it’s not a correction, It’s an “addition to”
I stand in addition to. Ha! I had way too much coffee. I need to go burn this off. Be back later…..
Hey, I love ya……No big thing ! Oh, I’ll take my coffee with extra sugar & cream !!
love ya too ! Its all good. (passing hot coffee to RACER!)
Oh, thank you…..it’s perfect and hit the spot !!
Did BDLR write this or Corey? Or both? Excellent !
What BdelaR said! After reading State’s response, I want to use racerrodig’s appellation for Faux-gen’s counsel. Not so as to be derogatory, but precise.
And the quote from Counsellor Benjamin Crump shows that he, at least,can read judicial English even if Appellation Controlee cannot.
Oh I like Faux-gen! “Gen” is the root for the words generation generate and so forth, meaning “create.” Faux means “false.” Fogen has set himself up to be a “false creator” – a demigod, a false god. The Outhousers and those like them worship him in a nasty form of idolatry. I like “Faux-gen” a lot.
From now on when I write “Fogen” I am incorporating “Faux-Gen” by reference. Hereinafter. 😎
while i like your reasoning very much, i just want to clarify that there is no relation between faux-gen and myself 😉
LOL
I would want to get that out ASAP too!
So sorry typo * can not *
The more I think about the high road issue in consideration of the source, the less inclined I am to refrain from use of the “M” word.
You can use it all you want.
Does anyone thing MRN will actually adhere to what is stated in paragraph 3 in this Motion.
@fauxmccoy
LOL! You’re too cute!
@fauxmccoy
I’m so sorry to create even the misperception of a hint of an inkling that you could have any connection to Fogen!
Since you coined the term “racerrodigs appellation” after I was “scolded” for using Moron O’ Mara why not “RA” when we refer to him.
So Fogen’s Motion that was prepared by RA is a farce.
I am happy with the State’s response. Now the defense can shut up about the recording device. They can go view it at FDLE. I’m glad the BDLR pointed out that the defense has trouble reading and following court orders.lol Also, that Crump does not represent the State of Florida, and imo since the defense got the names they wanted and can now go to FDLE for anything they need regarding the recording and the device, there is no need to depose Crump anymore…i hope BDLR brings this up to the Judge and she agrees.
Also, I’d like to point out that because Crump gave the device to FDLE, just as he said he did the other day on In Session, this is not a victory for the defense. That is not what they wanted. They wanted the recording device to be given to them…not to FDLE. They wanted potential jurors to believe that Crump was purposely not following the judges orders(which no order to give them the device existed) and they wanted potential jurors to believe that Crump edited the recording and that it would prove that DeeDee never existed and/or that there are multiple DeeDee’s. Can you say c-r-a-z-y?
It’s desperation b/c they know Dee Dee drives a stake through GZ lies.
Way to go Bernie!!!!
Another thank you goes out to Sanford Watch:
Thnak you Sandford Watch.
“Money for Murder.” Sounds like a song title. Maybe I will write one using Money for Nothing – Dire Straits.
Again, I do think in some ways the lawsuit IS legit – only in so far as it was a bad edit job and does not fairly portray GZ with what happened *at that particular instant.* However, NBC already admitted they made a mistake and took care of it. As far as damages, how is he going to prove that NBC made him look any worse (as if that would be even possible) than what was later said BY HIMSELF with regard to “*ucking *oons? There is NO way to prove that NBC made him look worse, he already “looked” bad, he didn’t lose his job because he had already quit, he would have trouble finding a job anyway – not because of NBC but because of his circumstances already, he already couldn’t sleep, he already had left his home. There is no way to figure damages from what they did because the damage was already done BY HIS VERY OWN SELF. And even if he is convicted, again, there is NO way to figure how much, if any, NBC would have been responsible for so I don’t think it would be able to be used for an appeal. The real damage done was already done by, continued to be done by, and continues this day to be done by GZ himself.
I do believe the edit was wrong, but again, they took care of that and I do not see how there can be money damages figured from it, especially since they are saying all these other people and news outlets portrayed him badly too. Who is to say which ones and how much.
But what it comes down to for me is, there is no one and nothing that has portrayed him to look any worse than he himself (and his lawyer and family).
If you don’t want it heard, don’t let it happen.
“Money for Murder.” Sounds like a song title. Maybe I will write one using Money for Nothing – Dire Straits.
I look forward to that. I like that song. An oldie but a goodie.
IANAL, I don’t understand how legally they can do it , but this is America. I think O’mara is under the gun with his client. NO PUN intended. From what I understand from news reports, this was ill timed. If GZ keeps pushing O’mara to do these things, I can not see him staying as his lawyer. I think the professor mentioned that he it’s too late for this, I happen to disagree. But then again, IANAL.
I agree that the high road is worth the effort but sadly for many (I can really only attest to my own actions) it is not the first
(or sometimes the second, third, etc) reaction. Thankfully, each day brings not only a new opportunity to re-evaluate yesterdays choices but the chance to make honest inroads into new behaviors. I give thanks for being a dynamic creation over a static one. Funny how my spirit convicts me of being on the lower road but also encourages me to strive for something less comfortable but ultimately more rewarding. Fred, happiest of holidays and keep telling it like it is, my friend.
Good to hear from you, my friend.
Many blessings and happy holidays to you.
Fred
Welcome back, I know you can’t be fully recovered yet, try to take it easy for a while.
Mike, I listened to that 911 tape about 20 times and I heard a gunshot much earlier than the murder shot, too. The reason I listened so many times is that the report had come out saying Fogen fired one shot, and that the gun had only one shot fired. (Can they really tell that?) Anyway, I began to wonder if Osterman was there and if there was another gunshot. Then somebody claimed that the first sound was “a door slamming,” but it sure didn’t sound like a door. The woman on the 911 tape says, “There’s shots fired” and then when questioned about how many, hesitates and ends up going with, “one.” I really don’t know. Maybe the FBI has a way of determining whether a short, sharp retort is or is not a gunshot.
About the text messages from Fogen using the “N word,” I certainly wouldn’t be surprised but I’ll wait until we see or hear something. That could make this trial into the reverse of a “Mark Fuhrman” experience (reference OJ Simpson).
There is no doubt at all in my mind that Fogen is capable of both enormous stupidity and enormous arrogant racism. He also thinks that he can get away with saying anything at all because he can clear it up later when an explanation that people are obliged to accept, since he is so superior that they cannot choose to disbelieve him. See, as his bro claims, disbelieving Fogen is ipso facto wickedness because it’s un-American to damage the credibility of a “decent American.” This kind of reasoning has brought us all the ills our society suffers from, frankly.
you know other ear witnesses said they heard two shots. one said she/he heard pop, pop. like two in a row.
i know what your hearing, i heard it too, but i’ve just chalked it up to something else since Trayvon only stopped screaming after the last horrific gun shot sound. that sound is so scary…
I feel that could easily have been an echo between buildings after the real shot. People in the right position would have heard it, but others would not.
I haven’t heard the two shots, but I will say this about that. If there were two shots, and TM stopped screaming only after the second one is heard, then the second one is a real one, confirmed by reaction. While the first one could not be an echo, since an echo cannot kill, nor can it precede the shot, it is supposedly the echo of.
I don’t think it was 2 shots, think it was an echo effect.
All I’m saying is, an echo would have to come after the actual shot has been fired. An echo cannot come before the shot is fired. The primary sound leaves the gun, and reaches the ear first, while the echo first travels away, then gets reflected back to the same ear, over a longer distance.
So, if someone did hear a shot like sound before the real shot was fired, it has to be something other than an echo. That’s about all I can say about it. I did not hear it, I didn’t even listen for it.
Every once in a while I listen again to the NeN tape, I hear too many noises for what is supposed to be taking place. Now that I’ve heard the knocking sounds clearly, I know they are distinguishable from the gun racking sounds. The gun racking sounds, sound just like gun racking sounds. As compared to sounds generated by gun racking. There are also, what appears to be partial gun racks in there, as though someone was fiddling with a gun. So, I ask myself, why would GZ have his wife’s gun? Where was his gun?
Could it have been put back in his truck? Is that the reason he left his keys in it? So, it could be quickly removed from the scene?
If Osterman was in the crime scene, prior to removing the truck, it stands to reason that Shelly was there or somewhere nearby as well.
Otherwise MO would have had to find her first, before he helped her remove the truck. Hardly a wonder then, that the police cars stage on RVC instead of TTL. So there would be no dash cams to capture what might happen to the truck. Maybe the media cams should be paid some attention?
@Lonnie
OHHH, I understand now, thank you for clarification.
Maybe the 1st crack sound was Fogens Noggin being bashed on the concrete ? Naaaaaaaaaaaaaa !
@Racer,
You make me laugh every day!
Did you have coffe yet? … bout to get some. Cream and sugar right.
Hey Thanks !! X-tra C & S
You wrote:
Every once in a while I listen again to the NeN tape, I hear too many noises for what is supposed to be taking place. Now that I’ve heard the knocking sounds clearly, I know they are distinguishable from the gun racking sounds. The gun racking sounds, sound just like gun racking sounds. As compared to sounds generated by gun racking. There are also, what appears to be partial gun racks in there, as though someone was fiddling with a gun. So, I ask myself, why would GZ have his wife’s gun? Where was his gun?
Could it have been put back in his truck? Is that the reason he left his keys in it? So, it could be quickly removed from the scene?
I too listen every once in awhile to the NEN call. I tend to listen in the frame of mind of not what I hear, but in the context that I hear it.
I know GZ is in pursuit of Trayvon. That is clearly indicted by him geting out of the car. I also hear and was not looking for it was a door closing before his door closed. One further away because his phone is further away from a passenger side door. @2:07 shit he’s running @2:11 first car door close sounds further away @2:14 second door closes sounds like his door because he is closer, its louder in the call, its his door. It is very likely that Shellie or Osterman was with GZ in that car. I lean more towards Mark.
Even though he was armed when he left his vehicle. He was not thinking of that at that moment. about his gun. He was more interested in chasing/following him at first. Then the racial slur. Gearing himself up. He didn’t want to lose sight of him. He is following him. Operator told him we don’t need you to do that. THAT did not sit well with GZ. He doesn’t like being told what he can and can not do. I believe in his mind he thought OK, I gave you a description, I told you about the breakins, I told you he was BLACK, I told you he looks to be up to now good, I told you has something in his waistband, and you tell ME ” We don’t need you to do that” He tries one more time He ran. Operator not paying him any mind. Ok George what ‘s your last name. By this point GZ has made up his mind to get his gun ready. @ 2:42, I don’t care what anybody says, that was him racking that gun. @2:45. He says under his breath SHIT GUN, once again I don’t care what anybody says that is what he said. In keeping with the context of the call, and knowing all over the internet that the Kel-tec9 is a piece of sh*t gun. It is totally reasonable for him to say that while talking with NEN. He is not focused anymore on the operator. He made up his mind right then and there. He would use his gun. In the context of this entire call, What else can he do. He feels stronger, superior with it. He has a gun, he’s seen this kid, he fits the description of the breakins, He is going to do this himself, regardless of what a stupid operator says. Also noted by my own experiences that I will get extremely calm to let the other person I am in control when in reality I am not. GZ does this in his call after he racks the gun.
As far as the other sounds following the rack, I don’t believe he was trying to fix the flashlight, I lean more towards a door. The reason being is a doesn’t take all your brain cells to concentrate on getting a flashlight going. He is extremely distracted. I think somewhere along these lines. You ever go to a friends house, and you knock on the door, but you have your wife on the phone and you are telling her something but don’t want the wife to know that you are at your friends house and he opens the door, but you are trying to signal to him don’t talk, because the old lady is on phone. But you are trying to signal to him, go to the car with hand motion to get the beer out of the trunk. Without talking but trying to answers all these questions she’s asking you on the phone. That’s how I hear that part, he is with someone trying to talk but not talk. Someone else was with him and or he kncoked on John’s door to incorporate his help.
Ok Lonnie what do you think?
It could very well be, but we aren’t hearing the same things as each other. I can’t yet hear the second door slam. I’ll simply have to remember this material until I get a chance to listen again with this in mind. All I can say right now is, there’s clearly more going on than just GZ walking and rapping on a flashlight.
Did you notice how the Judge was looking at GZ when BDLR recounted the bail hearing activities? She didn’t make a face, she had a deadpan stare at him, as if her jaw would drop if she let it.
George didn’t even notice it at all, so he’s shaking his head over the way the hearing went, when he should have turned white as a sheet.
MOM and West noticed it, it chilled them to the bone. But they have no choice but to soldier on.
Once GZ is found guilty, and is brought back to court for sentencing, his knees will buckle for sure. I think the seriousness of his situation is just beginning to sink in. My guess is money has ceased to come in and the latest media blitz isn’t working. Notice how the treehouse took a heavy pause? They’ve been thunderstruck and it’s about time.
Meanwhile someone should get a message to FT and tell him that his heavy drinking is making his nose swell up and turn red. That won’t look good if he’s called on to take the stand.
I do hope that you relisten, and consider this:
We have more information of GZ that either one of us care to know. We know his history of how he says things on NEN calls. Hell, we have six audio clips of those calls. We know he is adamant of controlling and patrolling the neighborhood. We also know his violent history. We know his history of following people in his own car chasing another car from previous 911 reports and on foot. We know he carrys a gun everywhere he goes, except work of course. We know his propensity to lie.
Think about all of that, then relisten to the NEN call. The only thing that is irrefutable is that call, from beginning to the end. He is and always will be tied to that phone call.
Deadpan stare. Yes. She could give Clint Eastwood a run for his money.
George shaking his head, was not a good idea. IIRC when O’mara was stating his case about the Judge considering his bond modifications, very softly I might add , after Bernie gut punched him the Judge side glanced toward George, the fool didn’t even look up because he was busy texting. If you watch it again take a look.
Frank Taafee should find his nearest AA meeting and just stay there.
I think the knees are bucking just a little now. He was not happy about the Judge denial for bond restrictions. He will take it out on his lawyers. GZ thinks the more motions he makes his lawyers file the more cooperation he will get with the court system. He is finding out that no matter how much you whine and squeal, you are basically done. Time is ticking the more GZ has his lawyers playing with paper, the less time they have to prepare. The bad thing of it is, I think under different circumstances O’mara would of did a good job. Meaning if he got control over his client, by shutting him the hell up early. But then again we wouldn’t have all this to go over.
O’mara would have more time preparing for trial if it wasn’t for his client Demanding from him, file this, I learned this in school. Or file that, my dad said that would be good, or I read at the treehouse this would be a good idea. The demands are getting to much for O’Mara and Company, look at how many times he said in his interview he was frustrated. I know he keep saying it was the slow poke SA, and Crump and this person and that person. Who he is really talking about is ole George.
.
I am pretty sure GZ is looking for a way to get rid of Nelson. But I believe that ship has sailed a long time ago. In the mean time the clock keeps ticking.
Tick Tock Tick Tock
I’ll have to listen again to be sure, but it’s getting to where it’s becoming painful. GZ is now without any credibility at all, nothing he says can be believed. In short, he’s a witness of nothing at his own murder trial, imagine that. MOM knows it, I’m sure he watched as the judge fixed her “open mouthed” gaze on GZ, after BDLR unmasked the bond hearing material against him.
If I read that look correctly, the judge stopped her jaw from dropping, and was trying to wrap her brain around: Why would a murderer banish his own credibility at a mere bond hearing? I’ll bet she now understands that she’s looking at a monster.
For sure, someone else was able to detect that GZ is a monster and they decided to feed it. GZ was not alone, he’s way too stupid to have planned this all by himself, because he doesn’t believe the elements of it, have any real meaning. Which says that he could not plan, because he has no idea of what needs to be manipulated, except to react opposite to accusations.
He says “skipping”, not even realizing that skipping is an action that requires a very happy, almost irrationally ebullient frame of mind. Children tend to fear the dark, which is why you’ll never see children skipping after dark.
Lonnie wrote:
I’ll have to listen again to be sure, but it’s getting to where it’s becoming painful. GZ is now without any credibility at all, nothing he says can be believed.
Its easier to listen to the NeN call then the witness calls, those are hard for me. But I got to do it. Alot of people have done so and made credible arguments as what can be heard.
I agree with you on his credibility. There is none. I think he is able to plan, carrying it out is another thing all entirely. I am going to school. That is a plan. But he doesn’t finish. I want to be a cop. That’s a plan. But doesn’t even enter the academy. I want to open my own business. that’s a plan. But that fails. He plans and plans and plans, but never follows thru.
The ridiculous statement, he was more like “skipping”, made GZ sound even more delusional after the Hannity interview. I believe he even made his supporters go HUH? He said what? And the money only dripped in after that. Even those people said to themselves, OK I’m done with this guy. How could they argue against a statement like that?
No, no, no, no, no ! All thugs skip. It’s like back in the seventies when the punks in town wore a red headband around their right leg it meant they had drugs to sell, or was it the left leg ??
If they wore a blue headband around the leg they wanted to buy drugs.
When a thug is skipping, it is a sign he’s out to bait a 28 year old Caucasian with Hispanic heritage, that is armed, but specifically with a 9mm Kel-Tek, that drives a Honda RidgeLine, into a savage, brutal, vicious, head bashing beat down…………but only in the rain, on Feb 26th, in FL, while wearing a gray hoodie, with a picture button of grandma, after buying Skittles……..which as we all know is the snack of leading thugs everywhere.
I hope this clears that up ! { – ;
Yep.
You definitely had your coffee this morning!
“You got me…” or “You got it…” No matter, it’s time for a 2nd cup !
Vroom! Vroom! Vroom!
Go Speed Racer!
oh look out! racer is at the top of his game today 🙂
Maybe I’ll mosey on over to HP and fire up the Zidiot Nation today.
We must be getting to them as there are fewer Zid’s there than ever. The same 8 or so and the funny thing is that the ones we know are Fogen, Papa Z, Jr & Taaffe and never on when there is a court hearing……just like Tuesday. Then they all appear within minutes of each other later on………..
Coincidence …….I think not !
oh, please do – i was having some fun at their expense last night and am up for more today 🙂
Maybe we can do a tag team. My friends Straightshooterz and shootman will be on later. I am a bit jammed up in the shop for another hour or so, but I’m always up for a good time.
works for me racer – i am on california, disabled persons time and could use another caffeinated beverage or two.
Understood. Look for my friends also.
Be sure to quiz them on why the Judge’s jaw almost dropped when BDLR recounted the bail hearing and George didn’t look up, or show any interest at all.
Oh and don’t forget to ask them to speculate on why George shook his head “in disgust?”, at the end of the proceedings. Hahaha.
Then ask them why the board went so quiet after the hearing? Let them know how puzzled everyone on the net was when that happened.
Noted as Q #3
@Racer:
I monitored the hours while I was at work, the number of posts on HP from the usual Z family members while the trial was going on. NADA! Then the minute the trial adjourned, they pop up again! We all know it is Rob, Frank, George, his dad who should know better and probably Shellie. A bunch of nutcases. This famiy is stone crazy!
I’ve been doing that since I first suspected they were newbee, LJP and the rest of the psycho patrol. The bottom line is it’s almost over but the clapping and they know it.
@Racer:
Some of the psycho brigade is back, and some are not. I wonder what they think when we post how immature GZ is, and how childish he is and the truth about what a troubled man he truly is. I posted today the medications GZ informed the ENT staff he was on, what they were for and how they effect a pt. Why this man was in possession of a gun and on these powerful benzo’s is a mystery to me. It is obvious that GZ has some serious psychiatric issues based on the medications that he is prescibed.
My friend Straightshootez was on HP twice today and there is nary a Zidiot to be found. He posted several times that newbee, LJP, and a few others are never on when there is a court appearance, No Denial.This was actually asked several this “…what row were you in on Tuesday…” No denial.
Lets see what new names they use now. I think the blanket denial was just to much to handle.
No wonder he was charged, that sort of behavior isn’t allowed until after the full moon.
Another “Duhhhh” to me. I forgot about the full moon. I think there is something about Fogens astrological thingie also…..something about Uranus ??
I’m wondering what MOM will think up for the Jan 8 motion hearing? It had better be good I don’t think the judge is going to take kindly to refiled motions about now.
Lonnie do you think Judge Nelson is aware of the possibility that the picture MOM was waving around was doctored as compared to the official police pictures 4 hours later where Chorge’s nose was miraculously cured of deformity?
It just seems as if MOM is insulting her intelligence with his antics.
If she doesn’t know it already, the SP will cover it for sure.
i think Judge Nelson will stand by her “No means No” posture.
a preceding shot would also help explain the dismal sense of terror and submission in Trayvon’s shrieks as he would have realized that this was his life flashing in front of his eyes (some claim to hear him call for his mother moments before he was killed).
If the police did not outright LIE on purpose, then we have to presume that IF the first “pop” (which was separated in time by quite a bit, and “Jeremy” was still changing locations) was a gunshot, it probably came from a gun other than Fogen’s gun.
@Malisha,
You reminded me of something when you said, other gun.
IIIRC, In Singleton’s interview with GZ. She asked what kind of gun was it. He replied Mine? Oh it was a kel tec. When I first heard then read it, I said to myself, now why would you answer that like that. She’s not talking to another person in the room, only him. It made me pause and think and say hmmmm was there another gun or gunman with him, to suggest he needed clarity as to who’s make of gun she was asking about.
If I find audio or written document will post for you.
“In Singleton’s interview with GZ. She asked what kind of gun was it. He replied Mine?
No stupid, the shooters !! I thought the same thing back then but forgot about it.
Totally thought the same thing. I was yelling the same thing at the computer when I heard that. I said to myself “What idiotic thinking!! My God !
I’ve read that he had Shelly’s gun that night.
I also heard on the NeN tape, the sound of knocking, which does have the feel of flashlight rapping, and I hear sounds that sound like gun racking and partial racking.
The gun racking sounds are distinctive because it’s metal on spring loaded metal sliding. The flashlight rapping sounds like just that, because door knocking would have a different frequency I suppose.
not so idiotic if you are half drunk or drugged and can not keep your lying mind steady
GZ should have need drugged tested tht night, with the probable cause being improper cognition, he had a lot of idiotic moments or Freudian slips
Yes. and yes and YES!
Of course, that’s just another indication that the police were working with GZ to cover up evidence of any crime. They should have insisted that GZ go to the ER with no other options allowed. Especially when the medics discovered that GZ had no normal elevated functions after such a traumatic experience.
@Tzar, yes, i clearly heard Trayvon screaming for “mom, help me”! It’s undeniable. i couldn’t hear what other peeps have heard like ‘i don’t know’ or anything else like that, but i can’t bare listening to those horrified screams again, and i’ve tried. it rips into my guts and causes physical pain to realize Sybrina and Tracy have to hear those pleas as the last they’ll ever hear from their baby!! i can’t imagine hearing my baby on tape in his last minute screaming for me to help him and i wasn’t there. GZ should be charged with torture of Trayvon and his parents!!
@shannoninmiami – I very clearly hear “I don’t know.” I do not hear “mom, help me,” but I do hear “mama” and I fall apart each time. I think of my son, of any kid about to die and their last words being “mama.” It tears me apart.
@Rachael:
I clearly hear TM screaming, “Mommm.” “I’m begging you!” “I don’t know! I don’t know em! Mommm! Helpppppppppp!” I shudder everytime I hear that 911 phone call. Listen again with ear phones on and you can hear TM and even GZ in the background screaming at TM! GZ shot this defenseless kid to shut him up! He is evil personified!
@Malisha The interview w/ Z saying “Mine?” is here around 8:30
Thank you Lynn. I got caught up, and didn’t get to post.
“it’s un-American to damage the credibility of a “decent American.” This kind of reasoning has brought us all the ills our society suffers from, frankly.”
Yes, all the fine white folk (among them my ancestors, no doubt) who supported the Native American holocaust and slavery also saw themselves as decent Americans. The very best kind.
I hope Fred is OK.
Here’s something else I found interesting. Staring at that picture all day made me wonder how the EMT O’Rourke could testify at the first bond hearing about 45% blah, blah, blah. I found the interview with him by Special Agent Supervisor David Lee. http://www.5dca.org/Clerk/George%20Zimmerman%2012-3198/12-3198_Appendix.pdf
Pgs 60-61 were what irked me. The more I read the more I wonder. 1)The man didn’t remember overhearing Z say anything (even though T.Smith claims Z spoke of his screams for help during the time he was beings cleaned up). 2)He doesn’t recall asking Z any ?’s about him or his injuries or his pain. 3)He couldn’t tell what Z was wearing. 4)He didn’t recall was TM was wearing. 5)He says there was a “significant” amount of blood…45% covering his face and head. 6)He says there was “substantial” dried blood on his cheeks and head. 7)and finally…when asked about blood on his clothing…Maybe…yeah,yeah,yeah…there was blood on his shirt (if he remembers correctly).
SERIOUSLY??? Does MOM think this guy will be his star witness telling the jury about Z’s poor broken nose?
oh he can’t recall if GZ had blood on his clothes? really, but he saw 45% of his noggin was covered in blood? i’d love to see someone with half of his head covered in blood but not get it on his clothes! where did it run to, UP? gz’s blood doesn’t follow gravity like ordinary peeps, his flows up and over his head, so it never messes up his neatly tucked in shirt and spiffy jacket.
yep, this guy did a real bang up, professional job that night.
and thanks for the link.
incredible…
AYALA was the one who said in writing in his report that Fogen told the EMT he had been screaming for help but nobody helped.
And AYALA did not note blood on the clothing.
I hadn’t read Ayala saying Z had been screaming, but T. Smith had said he heard him saying that in the cruiser while EMT’s cleaned him up. Funny thing it isn’t in Smith’s 1st statement or supplemental statement. Pgs 14-16
But is in his interview with SAO Pg23
Just putting a few of my thoughts out here on the photo. I have no camera expertise. But I’m curious enough to grab my cell phone today and pose for a couple pics of myself in a closeup face. Not pretty I assure you, but it had to be done. lol Face straight on shows my long beak and double chin…Face from a higher angle was like a different person. My forehead was large, my beak looked like I used a editing program to s-t-r-e-t-c-h it down a few inches, and my chin was this tiny point. Looked exactly like Z’s pic. Made me think about those cute dog nose photos. Distorted!
Kinda going the devil’s advocate route here so don’t shoot the messenger, please. The picture was taken with a cell phone vs a professional camera. Wagner would have been higher than Z if Z was seated in the cruiser. The car door would have made him take it slightly from the right side. Lighting/shadows could be explained with phone camera flash, overhead/dome light in car, or supplemental flashlight aimed at Z. None of these conditions make for great pictures with a cellphone.
All this coupled with the side by side of my own face (no way I’d post those) makes me think maybe it wasn’t doctored. I’ve played with editing software before and I could easily create a look to match the scrape on Z’s side nose. That being said, I think it’s real cause I don’t believe he was punched and suffered a broken nose with swelling. I think he scraped it on that stupid sign and that welt would have disappeared within the next 4-5 hrs in the police photos taken at SPD. How many of you have ever kicked your shin on a end of a bedrail or the likes? You don’t break skin open and bleed…you have an abrasion there and it welts up instantly. You usually swear a whole lot and rub it, but you don’t bother going and getting an ice pack. The swelling goes down shortly. It simply leaves a scrape and sometimes you have a slight bruise there. That’s what I think it looks like on Z’s nose. I see a tiny bit of blood trickling from his right nostril (left side of pic). Just enough to come from the few broken capillaries inside. I do see a scratch under his nose in the SPD photos. I think that is where the droplets of blood hanging on his nosetip came from.
Okay. Hit me with your best shot…but try the cell phone experiment before you do.
Lynn, you’re exactly right about your cell phone experiment. Many of the aspects of the Wagner photo are a result of the high camera angle, coupled with a short camera-to-subject distance and the wide angle lens of the camera. If you look at someone else’s head with the naked eye from 45° above from about a foot and a half away, their forehead seems huge, tapering down to the chin sitting on an even skinnier neck. So none of those effects in the Wagner pic are a result of doctoring.
And GZ did have an abrasion on the side of his nose, which likely produced swelling.
But how much swelling? I do not think the photo was edited to add things that weren’t there at all. I think it was edited to make relatively minor wounds look more consequential. In the Wagner photo the bridge of GZ’s nose above the abrasion is asymmetrical. The side of his nose to the cam-left of the wound on the bridge has disappeared.
Try this with your cell phone. Take a similar pic as before, but hold the phone just slightly to your left above, not dead center above. Turn your eyes, but not your head itself, toward the phone. This should put the highlight on the left side of your face, and create a shadow line on the right side of your nose and eye socket, but not on the right. Look at the distance between your right eye and the bridge of your nose in your new photo, and compare it to the Wagner photo. I think you’ll see what I’m talking about.
There are several ways in Photoshop to isolate an area of a photo and change it’s color characteristics, making just that spot brighter and bolder. I think that was done to the blood on the lips, which is just oddly bright, and not really the color of blood. We could write of some of that to the color rendition characteristics of the cell phone image sensor, except his red jacket appears to be the same color in the side-by-side with the station photos, so the blood should look like blood.
grahase could explain better than I can, but there also seems to evidence of the use of the Photoshop blur tool to smooth out some of the editing around the nose. The problem with the blur tool is the results are usually too smooth, disrupting the pixel pattern that can be seen in the outlining area that has not been blurred.
I agree. I think editing was done to make the injuries stand out.
Crane said upthread that whether or not the photo was doctored doesn’t matter to the case against GZ. But it just occurred to me that it might, assuming the editing can be authenticated by the proper experts. First, there goes O’Mara’s whole plan to use testimony from the SPD officials who believed GZ should not have been charged to argue for dismissal. Quite the opposite: if evidence was tampered with, that would seem to indicate that somebody thought GZ was in trouble. Third, it would certainly affect the credibility of any SPD officers who were called to testify at trial.
If the photo was altered, we can’t now know for sure the who, when and where, but by far the most probable scenario seems to be that it was done before Wagner transmitted the image from his computer to the lead investigators. I am asking myself whether a low-ranking officer such as Michael Wagner would undertake such an audacious criminal act simply on his own initiative? If he is part of an old boy network, might he have consulted some of the other old boys, including whoever is the de-facto leader of the boys club?
Wagner sent the photo to Serino on March 18, just short of three weeks after it was taken. That’s plenty of time for the people who said ‘Let the fogen go!’ to start worrying about the evidence Serino and Singleton had collected in the form of GZ’s not-credible statements, the recording of the fogen screaming exemplar, etc. etc. etc. Perhaps the old boys didn’t give a rat’s heinie about GZ himself, but felt a need to come up with some evidenciary back-up to justify their own earlier decisions. (Dumb asses should study some history: it’s usually the cover-up, not the original mistake, that brings down the powerful.)
I think the Obama Justice Department doesn’t want to touch this case with a 10 foot pole, but they may be forced into action if the media take up a ‘photoshopped pic proves police corruption’ frame (you know so NBC can boost its ratings some more at poor Zimmie’s expense). Could we see a scenario where Wagner gets immunity or pleads to a drastically reduced charge and sentence, in exchange for implicating his superiors? Wishful thinking perhaps, but a guy can dream…
I think all that will happen is the picture will simply not make it into the evidence at trial because of chain of custody
IMO, the State has a good argument that the photo was not taken under proper conditions such as the police station, by EMT’s, or at a hospital. Which leads to a question — since when do EMTs and paramedics NOT take photos when the person claims he was physically assaulted and what’s more — physically assaulted requiring him to use deadly self-defense?
I didn’t think EMT’s and paramedics were allowed to take photos at the scene. Something about violating 1st amendment rights and certainly a violation of HIPAA. But I don’t believe that would be the case with law enforcement.
Patients may have to sign a release. It is just very, very odd that when a person alleges that they were assaulted justifying killing their assaulter, and they refuse to go to the hospital, that the police did not take before and after clean-up photos.
Then again, if the person assaulted did not believe his life threatening injuries required anything more than water and peroxide, who should argue with him? (shrug)
Perhaps the photo was dropped to get the defense salivating and then blam, it gets denied into trial LMAO
I dont feel Omara will go there because he has a numerous record of falsely presenting evidence and information and Wagner’s lawyer will def shoot back at him with that
I am a licensed Paramedic, We do not take photos in cases of assault, that is Police business. When we have a pt who was assaulted, depending on the severity of the situation, the officer takes pics in the ambulance before transport or treatment. If the pt. is transported the police follow to the hospital to take pics when able.
Some very good thoughts whonoze!
whonoze – if the spd and wolfinger’s office highest ambition with the case was a local grand jury, then that photo would have been sufficient for their purposes. nefarious, but sufficient. in the grander scheme, as you suggest, if altered, it is criminal.
I know y’all prolly tired of talking about the pics,but I gotta feeling those pictures were not taken with Wagner’s phone. I believe those pics were taken with the neighbor/witness phone and maybe that’s why it took so long for Wagner to “REMEMBER” them.. I say that because I didn’t see any mention of this neighbor/witness in any of the police reports, but he was the 1st person on the scene with a flashlight taking pictures talking bullets… just saying…
@FactsFirst exactly!! I took another horrible look at discovery yesterday and the ever-changing documents etc. Wagner claims to have taken the photo in the Police cruiser…then suddenly 3 weeks after the “event” when he was informed (wording may be different but I could care less to semantics at this point) there were no pics of fogen, he claims to have downloaded them to his laptop…then deleted them from his iphone. The witness who also had photo’s “John” while being interviewed on 3-20-2012 suddenly tells FDLE he has photo’s as well…same story downloaded to his laptop and deleted from his phone…..not good I think for the defense. Who doctored what? I have no idea…not my job to figure out but the implications are a insurmountable obstacle IMHO.
OMG! i remembered those taken by the idiot witness who said he took two pics: one of GZ’s face and one of Trayvon. and then when the Fdle came he had the same story that Sdunn5 just said.
So is this one that witness took or did Wagner take it??? B/C i thought the witness took them right away… ( that guy should be bitchslaped for taking pic of Trayvon!! HOW DARE HE!!! )
TY Shannoninmiami it is very weird. Both say 3 weeks before “oh I have these photo’s on my phone” then…..?? I saw a short video by Llmpapa “why am I in it”? The witness that says “I just heard no, no before the shot”. Wow and yes because of these cowardly people and their tatements I know exactly why I am in it. I am sorry the fogen et al used your babies photo and avatar….just despicable, but here is what I believe they do not understand.,…for all the racist and ugly comments they have saturated the internet with, they do not get that LE has been tracking them since the beginning. I now believe fogen should be charged with a hate crime. I used to believe it would be reaching….no longer!
Okay I just saw this on my timeline but I do not know the actual authentication
………………..
CBS News learned that includes texts Zimmerman sent after the shooting. Some of them disparage leaders of “Justice for Trayvon” rallies with language described as offensive. i believe there is so much more that we wont know till trial GZ is toast
I remember reading that Jun, and in the same article they said that GZ had contacted Tracy Martin leaving a message with abusive language.
I was just about ready to type some nasty names towards GZ after reading that, but I’ll take heed to what the professor said.
Wow – I was looking for something else and found this:
http://www.guiltpoll.com/2012/05/new-evidence-george-zimmerman-used-n-word-in-text-message-and-e-mail/
I am not familiar with this website. What does “sources have confirmed” mean? Their drunk neighbor next door might claim that it’s true, but not know squat. I would be more inclined to believe it, if the site is considered credible.
Of course, I expect the information is correct and O’Mara’s complaint cannot be taken seriously when he opened the door with his bogus lawsuit.
But this is what I was looking for – seems to be a pattern:
“His domestic troubles continued in October 2007, when Zimmerman called police to report that the tires of his Dodge Durango were slashed and he suspected his girlfriend’s ex-boyfriend. The man denied the claim and told officers he was so annoyed by text-message exchanges with Zimmerman that he was mulling a restraining order. None was filed, according to Seminole County records.”
http://prorevnews.blogspot.com/2012/05/notes-on-george-zimmerman.html
Haha! And now it’s O’Mara who gets calls from GZ every hour. Just wait until the time is close for the immunity hearing. GZ will probably harass O’Mara and West every 10 minutes.
Then of course there is this:
“George Zimmerman is following the lead of prosecutors in his pending case for the murder of Trayon Martin, by requesting that certain evidence in his trial be kept under wraps. Zimmerman’s lawyer, Mark O’Mara, filed a motion last week requesting that his client’s text messages, emails and journal entries not be released to the public, until they can be reviewed by both sides.
***According to O’Mara release of the evidence will “adversely affect the proper administration of justice in this case, and may make it impossible to find an appropriate jury unaffected by this information.”*** ”
Oh really? Impossible to find an appropriate jury UNAFFECTED BY THIS INFORMATION? And why, pray tell, would that be?
Unbelievable.
Read more at http://hiphopwired.com/2012/05/28/george-zimmerman-wants-damaging-evidence-sealed-in-trayvon-martin-case/#czTgoMSq7erfTKs7.99
GZ has one personality when he doesn’t think he’s being listened to and/or watched, and another personality when he’s just being himself. O’Mara doesn’t want the public to know the real George Zimmerman. However, his NEN call tells us it’s not the “yessir” “nosir” he would have us believe.
“***According to O’Mara release of the evidence will “adversely affect the proper administration of justice in this case, and may make it impossible to find an appropriate jury unaffected by this information.”*** ”
I’ll take a shot in the dark and say he’s referring to the text to Taaffe where he say’s he’s out to get a c**n tonight.
I’ve been saying it for months…..the phone records will be something.
Omara complaining about jury while he lies 24/7 all over the media to taint the jury with lies about the case?
The state of Florida released *EVERYTHING* related to Casey Anthony and, now he is making this request and I don’t think it should be granted. the media needs to fight this BS which the defense is trying to get away with here. remember how they got access to Trayvon’s school records and now this Tugboat is requesting his using the “N” word and more be sealed by the court. this is not fair and, if this is done for him, Casey Anthony ought to file a law suit against the state of Florida.
As curious as the public might be, it is common not to release phone records to the public.
The defense was allowed to subpoena Trayvon’s school records, just as they were allowed to subpoena the social media. IDK if the school records were turned over to the defense and FB said they would fight the subpoena.
We don’t know what he said or texted to Tracy Martin, but if they were words of anger then it voids his sad, half-ass apology when he was in front of cameras.
I just paid a vist to the Treestump and someone there had been tracking BigBoi, a TM supporter, and apparently she and her circle were talking about how something big is going to break that won’t be good for the Tugboat. Could just be unsubstantiated cybertalk though.
Of course. O’Mara will have to break GZ’s nose, then take him for an x-ray. Then GZ will appear in court with a real broken nose that looks nothing like the photoshopped pic.
I saw something the other day about something big and bad gonna blow and if you sent whoever it was (they were not identified) your email, they would let you know before it happened. Obviously I didn’t do that because I don’t know who it was. I can’t remember where I saw it now.
It was to a website. It looked as if it had just been setup. I discerned that it was not a pro-Trayvon person but a baiting Zidiot hoping to get email and IP addresses of pro-Trayvon people in order to terrorize them.
Remember Odessa girl posting comments about something was about to blow the case wide open in a certain month? Some suspected it to be Sondra Osterman and sure enough, the Osterman’s announced the publication of their book the month that Odessa girl predicted that something big in the case was about to happen.
@Xena, LOL and the only thing wrong with that is, the fact that X-ray film has the patient’s name and date on it long before it’s loaded in the machine. I would just love for them all to get in trouble over that photo shopped photo. maybe we can sign a petition to have that photo examined by a professional in the field of photography. even if it doesn’t make it into a court of law, these crooks still need to be called out for this.
Right, and GZ doesn’t have enough money to pay off the technician to change the dates. (hehehehe) All Bernie has to do is ask the officers if they gave GZ water? Was it in a bottle or a cup? Did he have problems drinking from the bottle or cup? If they witnessed any swelling or injury to his lip that should have caused him pain drinking from the bottle or cup?
My belief is that both sides want to hide that info., and as a result, there won’t be a trial but a plea deal. That’s why I believe O’Mara’s shenanigans are being tolerated, so a plea deal will not result in outright chaos in Florida. (I predict Fogen gets 10 years, though, even at the best; I think when he finds out that’s the best he can do, he will try to flee.)
@Malisha, a plea deal is not an option in this case and, I think it was wrong of Angela Corey to pray with these parents and speak all of the words that she knew they wanted to hear in an effort to get justice for their son and then turn into someone totally different and offer him a plea deal. George Zimmerman deserves to serve some pretty long prison time for what he did. as for him wanting the GPS removed, that tells me that he is wanting to flee the country anyway. why would he have to be able to move about the state of Florida so freely for meetings with his attorneys. as for him talking about moving some where safer, no one knows where he is now so, it looks to me like his defense team is willing to help him flee the country by filing such a motion. I hope this judge will deny this but, from what I’ve seen of her in the courtroom so far, I don’t have much faith in her.
Plead this one out and America will look very crooked in the eyes of the world who is watching. China appears to have approved this trial for their people to watch. More countries have more people watching every day.
Worse yet for GZ is the fact that his defense team is now being discovered to be using false material in their motions, while not doing the work they should be focused on doing. Not only is that bad for the defense, but it creates a general impression that the SP has a slam dunk case. They can’t be seen to give that up for a plea bargain, without appearing to further the improprieties started by the SPD. So, for them it’s guilty or bust!
Regardless, you can see the outline of a bump, if you really look hard, on the police station photo.
Is this photo even admissible as evidence, since it’s not the original? Didn’t this photo come from a copy on a computer, and not the actual iPhone?
I dont think they can use it because
1) Wagner alleged that he took it of the defendant on the night of the murder
2) He alleged that he took it with his phone
3) The original file from the device it was taken on of this alleged pic is not in the device
4) It is said that it was found on a computer 3 weeks later after the murder and Wagner allege that he simply forgot it and sent it to Serino
5) There are numerous inconsistencies in the photo, including ones that defy physics and science, so there is a high probability it is photoshopped
The side-by-side needs to be magnified to see the police station photo. There is a bump there. it’s just hard to see. Unless that photo has been altered by someone, also, I don’t think a jury will buy the altered photo theory unless there is some hard evidence–something that should have been ascertained by now.
But, to me, Fogen looks obviously guilty. TM was protecting himself, but going against a man with a gun, he had no chance. It seems very conceivable to me that TM was enticed to attack in self-defense. At the very least, GZ had control of the situation for at for at least many, many seconds right before he pulled the trigger.
I think he initialyl went after TM knowing that if there was a confrontation he would be able to get his shot in, and then he’d be a hero. I believe he must have really provoked TM to get such a defensive reaction from him. JMO
The photo is altered and there is hard evidence to support it. And we agree with you, even with the foto, the defendant was still the aggressor. However, due to the chain of custody, they can’t submit the foto as evidence at the trial.
How about the mole next to his nose seems to have changed position.
Add that to the list of all the discrepancies LMAO
I will post a link of all the scientific and physical impossibilities where we can all post our observations of the photoshopped bloody nose photo
Which color T shirt does he look better with, the gray or the
blue ?? Since there are 2 I think the blue clashes with the red in his jacket.
It’s good they photoshopped out all the blood coming out his ears and the rest of the 45% of the covered blood because red is not really the Fogenhats’ color LMAO
@shannoninmiami, you are right about how the folks on TruTv behaved Friday. I really got the feeling that the person who interviewed the defense attorneys, were strictly pro defense. this is why I turned and started watching something else. they all did seem to lean in the Zimmerman corner and, that I can do without. IMO, Judge Nelson was wrong for not imposing a gag order on the defense when the state asked for one. she also granted ShelLie a continuation when it was said that, she did not believe in doing such. I’m not feeling to good about this judge. not at all!
In all honesty, I dont think they are pro defense, as the whole world already knows what happened, it is just a matter of time, and give the defendant his fair trial and it is over and done with
They kind of softball them because the state will never go on the media before a trial and they know the defense will so they softball them to come on and their only other option is to bring Crump on
I don’t think the picture is photoshop,this is what i think happen when he caught up to trayvon an ask trayvon what he was doing round here he shove trayvon an trayvon phone fell like dee dee said an then he grab trayvon thats why dee dee her trayvon say get off get off they made it to the ground an the witness saw trayvon trying hold him down the witness told them he was going to call the police that’s when he got a hold of trayvon wrist an got controll of trayvon trayvon began to scream he told trayvon to shut the F up pull out his gun while he is hold onto trayvon hoodie he put the gun to trayvon chest an shoot. now this is where the defeant gets the nose bleed because the gun kick back an hit him the nose the shell casing hits him on the side of the nose,thats why u see that bruising on the side of his nose because the shell casing was hot when it him look at the picture again it was so hot it made a imprint on the side of his nose. the side of his nose blister a little like i said from that hot shell casing but after four or five hour it went down an left that imprint on the side of his nose
It was uncomfortable watching Jean C. *interview* Omar. He kept BSing and she wasn’t coming back at him, simply correcting him about falsehoods. Why sit there and let him say GZ had a broken nose when there’s no evidence of it? why not ask him about the witness who retracted thier statement? why not ask him about in inconsistent boo boos from the nearly fatal head banging?? and then ALL day have NO ONE on to refute the things omar was saying?? that would of been easy enough.
I think they should take one of those computerized facial recognition programs and plug into it the nose in the pix taken at the station house, and build the face around it, and then plug in the nose in the picture in the squad car, and build the face around it, and use as variables the real measurements of Fogen’s face and head. Then we might see something that could help educate us.
Oh well, that’s interesting intellectually but the real issue is: a bloody nose does not prove self-defense. A BROKEN nose would not prove self-defense. O’Mara is omitting, and admitting by omission, the idea that the injuries to the back of the head amount to self-defense.
No injury will amount to self-defense because Fogen was the aggressor. Perhaps if Florida passes a law that African American children are never allowed to defend themselves against Hispanic-White or Hispanic or White adults, then injuries on Fogen would prove self-defense. But with the law as it stands now, this is essentially a series of low-brow publicity stunts to build the boo-hoo “cheering section” for Fogen because he is going to be made to stand trial or plead.
Oh, that “we were asked to plead him out but we refused” idea?
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Only if they were offered “Man-1, enhanced for a minor child, 30 years.” Otherwise, not credible.
The prosecution is not in a position to embarrass itself now.
That’s what I believe, Fogen was indeed the aggressor. He had many, many seconds there where he was obviously in control of the situation and before he viciously made his kill shot.
In one of the picture in the cruiser the lighting came from one direction. Where as, at the police station the lighting was from all directions. That eliminates shadows but also may make it harder to recognizes bumps.
the police station photos are real and you can tell because everything is scientifically and physically correct
the alleged photo with no chain of custody inside the police cruiser, the night of the murder, the photo was taken, where there should have been shadows on the right side of the defendant’s face, onto the cop cruisier background, and onto the jacket. The defendant is also leaning forward in the picture and there should be shadows underneath the chin onto the neck and jacket and there is none.
Lighting doesn’t change the size of the tip of his nose or the bridge between his eyes.
The intensity and angle of the lighting can make a big difference when it comes to recognizing contours on a face.
Can someone tell me where in the discovery a Police Officer uses the term “Porch Monkey”?
Apparently that came from whatever the FBI released in response to the O’Mara subpoena. I think.
Hi Malisha, I love your posts, humorous, insightful, you are awesome! I posted forgetting to hit reply to Tee, sorry my error. Thank you for responding.
Click to access sa_alexander_w50.pdf
Professor, I certainly hope you will be able to keep this blog going. What has been heard is appearing to be true that MD has been ridding himself of all those who have encouraged, helped and supported his blog. He must have known for awhile he was going to be celebrity just by the way long time supporters have been put off his blog and hurt by his most recent actions. I’ve been very ill but still reading your great Contributions. Get well!!!
Whonoze, you’ve referred to my mistrust of Corey. You’re right about that. Recently I have spent about three years research prosecutorial misconduct and I have really been quite disgusted by what I read. I don’t have any particular case from Corey’s past that makes me think she has done anything specific (my research was about the prosecutors in Harford County, Maryland, Brooklyn, New York and Arlington County, Virginia) but her position in the Marissa Alexander case was appalling. I believe, however, she was chosen by Scott to be special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin shooting case for the reason that she is a scary smart prosecutor and not one who can be intimidated. If she gets a case and decides there’s probable cause, not Fogen, not Fogen’s daddy, not any combin-ation of Fogenites or any big guns will have a chance of backing her down. Scott knew he could not come up with a political solu-tion to this case; it had to be dealt with and the Sunshine Laws had to be respected and there was no way out, because all the atten-tion was concentrated on Seminole County. between you and me, I think if he thought there was a way to finesse this thing and still give Fogen a “get out of jail free” card, he would have done it. But he wasn’t willing to risk a shockwave that might bring Florida’s SYG law into the Supreme Court and make all the other 16 states who had passed that crap lose their jollies on HIS account. Not a good idea.
Once Corey had the case, I was sure that one or the other thing would happen: Either (a) Fogen would get charged and it would go through the normal course and the likelihood of conviction was very very high; or (b) Fogen would get charged and a deal would be cut where Corey would act like she was forced to reduce the charge in order to make sure Fogen avoided acquittal. Whether it would be (a) or (b) that would happen would depend on two things:
1. Did Corey really want Fogen to get punished or was she doing a cosmetic job to save the SYG law and save face? or
2. Did Corey really want to make the thing come out so it looked like the Sanford Police Department and Norman Wolfinger had really NOT done wrong, so the feds wouldn’t hurt them.
The real problem, if Corey’s goal was #2, is that even with a massive publicity campaign, it’s going to be very VERY hard to make this come out looking like Fogen couldn’t be convicted. There’s just a giant credibility hole in the picture that would have to be painted, as a backdrop, to make that kind of public theater work.
I think also saving the SYG was a part of it
because when they convict the defendant
they can easily say that hey the statute works because it does not assist criminals who want to abuse the law and it is strictly for real self defense, not for committing murder
and I also feel it is to tone down homicide in Florida because the last thing they want to do is set a precedent by letting this idiot stalk and kill a kid and get away with it
bodies would be dropping and the murderers let go based on BS
however, it is not anything new… I hear it is a common theme for murderers to stage a self defense claim and has happened since the beginning of modern law
@ blushedbrown, I hoping the the justice department does something about this police department they seem to be incompetent, and racist. What kind of LE agency allows its officers to call other officers porch monkeys. Had these officers were not prejudging,bigoted jerks, GZ would be in prison right now awaiting trial. Had they not had in there minds that Martin was a thug about o committ a crime they would have collected the evidence properly that night. I believe nothing any of them say I wouldn’t trust them as far as I could throw one them to me they are just as guilty as GZ. I’ll keep hope alive that when Justice is served for Trayon death that some of it sprinkle down onto the SPD.
@Tee,
Yes, that is my hope too. I couldn’t believe what I was reading. My jaw dropped at that porch monkeys comment. I said to myself do people STILL talk like that. It boggles the mind.
But, first and foremost I want a conviction. Then the rest may tumble down along with GZ.
Over 40 years ago, when I was a young waitress in a Midwestern state, police officers regularly gathered at the Italian restaurant I worked in. I overheard many of their conversations, unfortunately, because these were often racist, sexist, and prejudiced in other ways toward the people they dealt with on the streets. It was pretty creepy stuff and I’ve never felt comfortable with police officers ever since even though intellectually, I know there must be good ones who don’t think like this.
I like fireman more then cops. They are the only ones who are colorblind when it comes to their job of safety. No matter what they always go in.
I’ve never seen a group of firefighters behave like that.
Greetings Tee, I posted below instead of where I should have my apologies. I read your post re: LE using the term “Porch Monkey’s”. Can you tell me where to look for this in the discovery? Thanks!
Gz filed motion to have ankle monitor removed & that he be allowed to leave the county without courts permission. The reaon he gives is that he is not safe there & people want to do him harm. I really could not finish reading this it started to piss me off so i signed off, These guys are really getting on my nerves. I hoping the judge soon put her foot down.
if I had a quarter for every time that happened to me while reading some drivel from the defense…I’d probably have 5 or 6 bucks LOL
Yo Tzar! I always knew there was big money potential in following this case! LOL.
@Tee
Did you read the Q & A from Santiago. What a smart A55!
Skimmed through it, and the gist I get is nobody thought they had anything to charge Z with at least from Santiagos POV. Bernie ask did you read the case file? NO Did you read his statements? NO
Did you see the reenactement? NO. The nerve of him to make an opinion and not even look at the evidence! The only one who spoke up that felt that his injuries was inconsistent with story GZ gave was Randy Smith. And everybody eyeballed him! Because he waited 2 weeks to say anything. Well I am assuming of course and JMO, maybe he did his homework and waited to see case files and evidence and felt no this guy is lying.
What do you think?
It comes down to …….Evidence – Opinion – Evidence – Opinion. Wait, how about, Rock, Paper, Scissors…..Maybe fingers even – odd..on 3…1 – 2 – 3 go !
Good one Racer!
I noticed that he is from NY.
Yep that’s how a New Yorker talks.
It does not matter a hill of beans that any or all of the cops didn’t think there was enough to charge him. That’s not their job. If MOM thinks having this testimony as a reason for Immunity, he is what I’ve said he is. What matters is what happened factually.
EXCATLY!
@blushedbrown
I haven’t read that, can you tell where to find it?
Click to access motion_to_modify_conditions_of_release.pdf
If you go to link all the pdf are there
http://www.gzlegalcase.com/
O’mara posts all motions and data he receives.
Oh, I was just at gzlegalcase.com and I didn’t see it. What is the name of the file? Sorry to be a pain.
Motion to modify bond conditions
You are not a pain, love helping out.
I read it and the funny thing is it said what I was guessing they would say
some of the cops would say they felt there was enough to move forward, some felt there wasnt enough, and they never stated they never wanted to charge the defendant, they just felt they did not have enough to go forward
So all of Omara’s lambasting that the police refused to charge are such lies LMAO
Also as usual Omara tried to get hearsay, but since it is a deposition, he can do so, but the hearsay did not much help is case either LMAO
@Jun
Looking through the document pretty quickly, it seems that Bernie did good on cross. Santiago language sounded was very defensive.
It’s unbelievable. If everyone in that room was as careless and uninformed as Santiago, how can SPD’s contention that there wasn’t enough evidence be taken seriously? Sheesh.
My thoughts exactly. Those were general meetings, which Bernie got out of Santiago. The meetings were not solely dedicated to the Investigation to Trayvon’s murder. It seems to me it was on a “to do ” list then lets get this done NOW list.
That seems entirely possible to me. You’d think that Smith would have clearly stated that he had studied everything, though, and that Santiago would say so.
Is OM deposing everyone who participated in those meetings? I feel we’re not getting a complete picture of everything said at these meetings through Santiago’s reporting.
Almost the whole department is on the witness list. I believe he has a list of depos being taking on his website. If I find it I will post it for you .
Try this in the meantime.
http://www.flcourts18.org/presspublic.html
Thank you blushedbrown. I didn’t realize that the exhibits were below and stopped reading on the page sign by O’Mara.
That was a lot of reading. What is up with this Santiago? How would he know if Fogen should be charge or if there was enough evidence when he knew nothing about what was going on? I am sitting here shaking my head thinking that they would base an important decision on whether there is enough evidence to present to the DA for an arrest in a killing of anybody without reading reports, interviews, etc..
MOM has nothing with that depo…nothing. Making a big stink over nothong as usual, just trying to fool potential jurors is all.
thanks again. 🙂
de nada 🙂
I have no problem with the removal of his GPS. I’ll get my chainsaw.
LOL 😆
You’d get his blood on you with a chainsaw, and I don’t think you want a potential foge-infection. I say flamethrower. It’s sterile, and burn treatment is really painful….
Just kidding George! 🙂
I don’t believe you’re kidding…….How about my 6″ disc grinder….I do a lot of cylinder head porting with a high speed grinder. I have very steady hands.
LMAO He is in so much danger, yet, nothing has happened to him LMAO
The whole world already knows the State of Florida and the Federal Government has the defendant’s ass in a vice so there is no reason for anyone to go at him, we have two separate sovereigns to do that for all of us LMAO
Just ask the defendant to submit to testifying this in court and provide proof
The motion will go away fairly soon LMAO
he has about as much chance of winning as I do of getting younger.
Ironically, he just might be in more danger if he moves around FL freely. Just sayin’.
Yep.
I’d say that is true, but it’s Fogen and his logic.
LMAO
that would be a good argument
because instead of just Seminole County allegedly threatening the defendant, now it is all of Florida, but oops look he has no ankle bracelet and he skipped town LOL
I think the best argument is what Nelson has done all along
“It has been ruled, we already talked about this, now let us move on.”
If I remember correctly, Nelson already stated that the time had passed to argue Lester’s rulings and they stand
Personally I think Omara is trying to pull what he did to Lester by rehearing the bond evidence and then he will write the same appeal to appellate to try and get Nelson off the case but I think the appellate purposely screwed Omara by putting Nelson on because she gets things going fast and to the point
I believe you have it correct. Are there enough Judges in FL to keep him happy. It’s been 3 so far.
Actually 4. The first judge had worked with O’Mara and I think, MOM is godfather to one of the children. He automatically recused himself.
Let me rephrase…They’ve been through 3 and are on the 4th.
Yep. By filing the lawsuit in Seminole County, they might be working at getting a 5th.
Watch Papa Z come out of retirement & MOM request hm because “….it’s undisputed he would know more than anyone”
Papa Z was a magistrate — paper pusher, calendar scheduler. He could not hear motions on cases — no law school — no JD.
You do know I’m just joking ??
Yeah, I know you’re joking but couldn’t pass up an opportunity to talk about the successful family — so successful that none of their connections offer them as much as a Futon and thus, they live like vagabonds.
There is, after all, only so much room in a trailer home.
I can see how the court might agree to let him go anywhere in FL or perhaps give him a two or three county range in order to take care of court business, but I don’t see him getting rid of that bracelet. People have to wear them for far less trouble than Tugboat has caused.
Exactly. I guess he saw the TV commercial for the airline where they say “You are now free to move about the country” and he’s thinking Peru, Brazil…..maybe Argentina.
GZ can forget about getting rid of the ankle bracelet. Does anyone remember Judge Lester’s order on allowing GZ to leave Seminole County? He stated, and I paraphrase, that if O’Mara could coordinate with the GPS folks, then he could file another motion.
Well, evidently there has been no coordination with the techs that have to program the device for Florida Statewide, so GZ wants to get rid of the ankle bracelet so he can go where he wants without being tracked.
That ain’t happening.
I dont see her changing the rulings because the defendant can already see his lawyer with no issues at all already
and they also have probable cause because of the dead body, the smoking gun, bullet casing, and the defendant’s statements and the defense is more than welcome to plead at the evidentiary hearings such as the trial or SYG if they please, which has already been offered to them
The defendant should not be coddled just because he shows up to court and to see the officer every two days just because he has to by court order
knowing Nelson nothing will change because it has already been ruled and all the info Omara is trying to present has already been gone over and he knows his motion is filled with lies and he is simply plotting to play games
I wonder how many times OM will make these frivolous motions? There should be some point at which Judge Nelson gets sick and tired of it.
It’s O’ Mara and Fogen, this is just the start.
Two Sides
I feel that is the point of the motions
Omara’s plot is to get everyone sick and tired, including the judge and then appeal to the appellate to get Nelson off, because he is trying to bait her to look at the evidence and give her spin on it and then present it to the appellate
It is the exact same thing he did to Lester and if you read this motion compared to earlier ones, the general consensus of the motions has been exactly the same
1) Cherry pick what to present, especially the retracted statement of witness 6
2) Present a foto publicly which has a questionable chain of custody and then go on and lament about the alleged death beating the defendant claims
3) State what a good pre-trial release the defendant is by saying he shows up, when the fact is he has to or he gets in trouble and caught since he has an ankle bracelet otherwise it is more trouble for the defendant
4) Make excuses for the defendant presenting false information at the bond hearings and this time he claims it is a belief
5) Make claims that his client is in so much danger of being hurt over and over, without producing anything to authenticate these claims, after already been caught numerous times scheming
You know, IMO, that is a serious mistake on O’Mara’s part. He is an attorney and should know better. Unless the finality of a judge’s order is pending appeal or been overturned by a higher court, it is carved in stone. It should never, nevernevernever ever, be presented in pleadings before another judge as “belief” when that judge’s “belief” determined the facts.
Judge Lester’s “belief” set GZ’s bond at a million dollars. When MOM appealed the order for Judge Lester to step down, he did not appeal the bond amount. He cannot ethically now present it in a manner where he disagrees with the bond amount and facts leading to Judge Lester’s decision.
Judge Nelson is smart and may not make any mention of it, but she will note O’Mara’s disrespect for the court.
i can’t argue any of that. Maybe the New Black Panthers, all 3 of them, should send him a stretch limo for his next court appearance. That would make MOM feel the fool. They should send them take out everyday, you know, just to show “No Hard Feelings” Maybe they can tout a “Get to Know The Real NBP Party” tour like RZ Jr is on.
I feel it is just the start of these idiotic motions because Omara has nothing
His depositions of the cops and use them against the victims theory?
I read the depo and it aint helping Omara
so his conspiracy theory of nailing the client when the cops refused to charges has been put to rest now LMAO
like good grief, see how many motions he filed for one hearing?
None of them amount to anything
Omara seems to just want to have something to kill time with and attempt to diverge the actual trial or SYG because he knows his client is toast
The federal and the state want his rear end
Yep, Yep, Yep…..He’s Screwed.
Xena, I agree and from Nelson’s ruling, I believe she stated the time has flown the coop and Lester’s rulings stand. Besides, the whole world pretty much agreed that the defendant schemed the court with false and manipulative information. To call it a simple belief is a material falsehood and as a lawyer he should be evidentiary sound because his constant lies just make him out to be a spin doctor.
You’re dead on and that’s why I call him, what I call him……and they re more hateable everyday.
LMAO
Gotta love Junior’s logic
He proclaims
“We are not racists”
but then
“We do not like Obama, Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Natalie Jackson, Crump…”
I can only spot two similarities amongst the group he named he dislikes LMAO
He say’s they’re not racist’s….WAIT, “We do not like Obama, Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Natalie Jackson, Crump…” aren’t these people all Black ?? You mean to say, they lied !!
I hope this judge does not give in to his wants but, with her I’m not one who has to much faith in her because, she has given them just about everything else that they have asked for. he should feel safe hiding out or taking his fat tugboat @$$ back to jail. there he will be real safe. but to perfectly honest with you, I don’t care about his safety. he should have thought about that when he pulled the trigger on a 17 yr old innocent kid.
@Frederick
I understand that the judge decides what evidence is admissible or not, but does the judge also have the power to rule on whether it is tampered with or not? Or what that be something the jury would have to decide? Many of us are questioning whether this will be admissible.
Geez i feel dyslexic sometimes.
I dont think either the bloody head foto or the bloody nose photo will make it to trial or SYG hearing because of the chain of custody and it’s questionable beginnings.
From Daily Kos:
#Zimmerman Edits out “F’cking Coon” from 911 Tape He Filed with Court in lawsuit against NBC
Can NBC have the case thrown out based on fraudulently submitted evidence?
George Zimmerman filed a lawsuit against NBC claiming that NBC made him (George) look racist in a edited 911 tape they aired.
The thing is, when George Zimmerman filed his Complaint with the Court, he, Zimmerman, edited out the portion of the 911 tape that George makes himself look racist when he said, “F’cking Coons.” (listen to Time Stamp 2:22)
Also, at Time Stamp 3:20, on the tape you can hear George knocking or taping on a door and if you listen closely you can hear George say: “Keep an eye on my truck.” Who did George say that to, and why did he edit those words out of the Transcript he filed with the Court?
Try to wrap your head around that one.
Zimmerman files a lawsuit with the Court claiming he has suffered damages of “emotional distress” from an edited 911 tape that he claims made him him look racist — but at the same time — Zimmerman gives the Court his own edited version of same 911 tape by cutting out his own comment: “F’cking Coons”
… wow! … Just wow!
This is a video of the 911 tape with both audio and written transcript. At Time Stamp 2:22 George Zimmerman says, “F’cking Coons
You raise a good point. I do not know the legalities of profanity being inside a legal document so he may have had to do that. Perhaps Frederick can give us some insight into this question.
I’ve seed legal pleading that when quoting, include profanity that was stated. I’ve also seen legal pleading that when quoting, use “expletive” in place of the word.
Correct, been there, seen that. Since he is alleging he was made to look bad by the alteration, he will really look bad by omitting those 2 words since they are as clear as a bell. Imagine the NBC lawyers at that deposition.
An obscenity does not matter. He cannot remove anything at all. At best he would have to simply note there is an obscenity.
I testified in a civil cases in Federal & State court where I had to repeat what was said verbatim by one of the parties. I made my stance clear to the court these were not my words and in every case the Judge would say…it’s not a problem, we’ve all heard this before. Since he is going the race route, he damn well better remember everything.
LMAO I doubt it is because of the obscenity. The idiot just thinks he can pull one over on NBC and the court when everyone and they mama has heard that tape. It was like when he thought his below $10 and Peter Pan code was intelligent.
“Can NBC have the case thrown out based on fraudulently submitted evidence?
George Zimmerman filed a lawsuit against NBC claiming that NBC made him (George) look racist in a edited 911 tape they aired.”
I believe they can and will try. There are other factors as well the biggest being this did not force him to go in hiding. He did that a month before this was released. Add the fact that they used his own words and the meaning is not changed and…….he’s got no case.
I learned from Xena and NBC can get it thrown out on summary judgement. They can even argue at the fact the defendant would not be able to pay their lawyer fees when they countersue for the plaintiff filing a frivolous lawsuit. I feel NBC will have a strong argument even for a summary judgement to throw out the lawsuit. I feel NBC would probably agree to go to trial, only if Beasley agrees to pay their countersuit after. I dont know how much money Omara has because he’s a liar and cant be trusted at his word. He has claimed they have $320,000 but is that altogether from the beginning, summed up, or is it just recent amounts? If there is money, the Beasley lawyers may not have taken contingency because the suit is frivolous and they likely want to get paid for lawyering for that idiot.
It’s the total — everything since April. GZ has about $15,000 remaining in his defense fund, which is not enough to cover the cost of security, his safe-house, his GPS fees, food, and a larger sized wardrobe.
Nothing has been said as to whether ShelLIE’s attorney is also being paid from that fund, but purportedly, GZ is also supporting her out of the same money.
About the lawsuit, as the Professor shared on another post, they may be able to have it dismissed under failure to state a claim in which relief can be granted. Summary Judgment is another option.
Regarding countersuits, the news agency would not countersue for their costs and legal fees. Rather, they can request the court to enter sanctions for the filing of a frivolous suit, with penalties being to pay their costs and fees.
@Xena “larger sized wardrobe”…..very very funny!
Ooooh that’s an automatic loss for GZ, not that he would win anyway. It’s clear that GZ is racist, and honestly, I don’t mind that NBC pointed it out. With FL’s Sunshine Law, I knew we’d hear the entire call anyway. It makes him look like an ass and he knows it.
I don’t see what the problem is with the editing. At some point NEN would have asked for a description of Trayvon, and the response would’ve been Black male. So what? The racism kicks off when Fogen refers to Trayvon as a F***cin coon! Fogen knows what the line of questioning is for a NEN or 911 call when your are repoting a “suspicious” person he has done it soooo many times before!!! The question would’ve been asked eventually. He voluntereed Trayvon’s “Suspicious” behavior before being prompted! This dude is a hot mess! Send his butt to prison already!!!! UUUUGH!
Thank you so much everyone for maintaining the blog today, and for your kind comments. We are following suggestions, especially with fluids. Although Fred was up only briefly for a shower, he has been unable to be up aside from that.
Anyway, he is very much hoping to be able to return tomorrow, and again, it is very nice to have such thoughtful comments and to see that the discussion is continuing.
Thanks again.
I hope very much that he recovers quickly; it’s miserable to be feeling so bad (I bet he has been trying not to let on how bad). I am very grateful for this blog and your hosting of it
Thanks, Cercando, yes, he is pretty sick.
Professor leatherman I would like to run something by you! SZ had her CCW permit revoked! she has yet to be convicted of the perjury charges against her so what else would they revoke her permit? Ostermen claims that SPD gave GZ his permit back to him and while being investigated my understanding is that even with LE they aren’t aloud to have a gun while the investigation is going on and if this is in fact true why are there not more charges filed against GZ ?
GZ shouldn’t be allowed any guns, due to his bond conditions.
More on the photo:
From the time of it’s release in BW form in the earlier discovery:
“The photo, taken by officer Michael Wagner and downloaded to his computer, had not been seen before; Wagner hadn’t shown it to anyone until he found out there were no other photos of Zimmerman taken at the scene, the Orlando Sentinel reported.” (Time, 5/15/2012)
Could this possibly be rephrased as: Wagner didn’t get the photo doctored until he found out there were no other photos of Zimmerman taken at the scene to compare it to.
And why didn’t Smith, Ayala, Mead or whoever make sure they had several photos of Zimmerman’s injuries before the paramedics attended to him? Wouldn’t that be essential evidence in any event? (Can’t put this on Serino, as GZ had been cleaned-up and shipped off to SPD before Serino arrived to take charge of the scene.)
whonoze: “Wagner didn’t get the photo doctored until he found out there were no other photos of Zimmerman taken at the scene to compare it to…… .And why didn’t Smith, Ayala, Mead or whoever make sure they had several photos of Zimmerman’s injuries before the paramedics attended to him?”
Interesting questions. Are they incompetent or corrupt?
Both?
T. Smith certainly wasn’t worried about talking photos of Z’s injuries before the paramedics attended him. He was the one who was reminded (when Z asked to go to the restroom) by Lynch to get pictures before Singleton’s interview. He was in no hurry whatsoever!
8 parts corrupt, 2 parts incompetent.
“8 parts corrupt, 2 parts incompetent.” Season with racist ignorance, sprinkle in 204 lbs of bigot murderer, saute over a high flame, add meds as needed, add the alcohol of choice and serve to the next Klan outing.
Wicked recipe.
Garnish lightly and serve in Prison !!
hahahahaha:lol:
Having gotten to know “The Real GZ” however, he’ll only have it with Crackers.
That is a very good question, about why there were no other photos taken at the scene. You would think that would just be cop 101 – common sense, ESPECIALLY if there were injuries.
And “Wagner hadn’t shown it to anyone until he found out there were no other photos of Zimmerman taken at the scene” makes sense when rephrased such as you have.
Kind of like GZ saying it was self-defense if no one saw.
That whole if a tree falls in the woods thing.
Mike, the Credible Hulk is fabulous — I’m in LOVE!
Once years ago I was having lunch with a friend of mine whom I saw rarely (we lived in different cities). We were arguing about something and I said something and she responded, “You know, you make it VERY DIFFICULT to argue with you when you insist on using logic like that!”
She was a graduate of Radcliffe. I laughed, because we were good-natured in our debating, but I remembered that sentence because sometimes folks tend to resent you slicing up an argument simply because it is logically impossible.
You have a formidable mind and you’re incredibly articulate and creative!
I don’t know how to embed this – but here is Trayvon in 7-11 and you can hear him on the phone, I presume getting a call and saying hello.
Oh – it did it by itself.
The squirrels at the treehouse were using that video with Trayvon’s voice to “prove” that Trayvon’s voice is too deep (“like his father’s) to have been screaming on the 911 calls.
@JM:
Have the idiots over there, explained the dialogue during the screaiming? The begging the pleading, the screams for Mom to help him?? The statement over and over of, “I don’t know, I don’t know ’em! I’m begging you? HELPPPPPPPP!” Why would GZ need to say any of this? Don’t matter because when the prosecution plays this tape in court, the jury will know immediately who it is and who it is NOT! Also, I take none of these idiots have heard LLMPapa’s tape where GZ demonstrates his screams for the SPD? He sounds like a YIPPING PUPPY! (I apologize in advance to all dog lovers including my own dog, Chuckie)!
The squirrels explain nothing to me, including how Chorge claims he was smothered yet managed to scream and why the screaming for the police to find him suddenly stopped after the gunshot which they explained as “shock” from firing the gun. Then I was banned.
My, my, my – isn’t that interesting. While it certainly does not prove who was screaming, I thought it said just the opposite of what you say they are saying. LOL
I do not understand the idea of audio in the 7-11 surveillance tape. I thought they were the bubble camera;’s we see here. I wonder where the microphone for that is in this store.
I don’t know that there even is one (microphone). It may be someone doing for audio what Photoshop does for photos. IDK. And it doesn’t prove anything. I should probably not even have posted it, I just found it interesting.
OMG! i had no idea there was audio on the tape!! i’ve only seen the silent one!! thank you so much!
and this is the first time i’ve heard his voice besides his last screams. so heart breaking so sad.
He doesn’t seem to be ” on something, or yep something is wrong with him,” do he!
He did seem to put his change in his pocket with a certain “Thugthority” Or is it just me ?? I’d say he looks like a normal kid at the store, but we’ve been saying that from day 1
The video certainly proves that Trayvon was never a suspicious guy (according to reasonable people anyways). He went to the store, he bought Skittles and Ice tea, and the employee at 7-11 treated him like any other customer.
Wait Wait — if there is audio at the 7-11, that means that it is not true that there is no example of recorded voice for Trayvon Martin. Oh. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh…
Fogen, go get some trimmings, because your goose is cooked.
I take the high road with every argument involving this case, with this picture in the back of my mind.
http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/credible-hulk
Here is more from the interrogation, after he shot Trayvon.
Fogen: I was on top of him straddling him, he was face down and when he was hitting me in the face and head, it felt like he was hitting me with something in his hands, so I thought he had a weapon. I grabbed his hands and pushed them away from his body and said, “stop…just stop, don’t move.” And he was saying something like ah.. ah and cursing and I said, ”stop-don’t move” and then somebody came and they had a flashlight and I thought it was a cop and I said, I still had my gun in my hand as I was holding his hand out, and I said, “are you a cop?”, he said, “no.” and I said, he said, “I’ll call them.” and I said, “I don’t need you to call them, I already called them, they are on their way, I need you to help me restrain this guy.” And he said, “I’m calling the police, I’m already on the phone with them.” I got up off of him cause he stopped struggling and I thought that he had just like stopped struggling and then I holstered my weapon and I saw another flashlight….
My point in this part of the interrogation is that Fogen expects people to believe that after he shot Trayvon straight in the heart, that Trayvon could really sit up and say you got me or you got it, fall backwards facedown and still be saying ah ah and cursing and struggling with Fagon? If anything possibly he cried out for his mother or father…but I doubt he was cursing and struggling with Fogen. Not to mention…Trayvon was found by the first police officer with his hands under his body and that matches the photo of Trayvon’s body. His arms were not pulled out the way Fogen says. Fogen only said that he had Trayvon’s hands pulled apart when he was on top of him was because he was afraid that the same witness saw him earlier on top holding Trayvons hands pinning him down. He knows that Trayvon had nothing in his hand if it were true that Trayvon had his hands over his nose and mouth.
Here’s some more.
Irwin: Where were his hands when you went to reach for your weapon?
Fogen: One hand was going towards the gun. He took it off my mouth and I was trying to get his hands…he was suffocating me, so I was trying to get his hands off of my face, so when I felt his hand he had let go of my mouth, so I wasn’t trying to do anything again with my right hand, so I grabbed my gun and I don’t remember if he did at the same time or what the case was, but I got it to it first.
Irwin: And then how did you come to fire upon him from that position, cause you’re laying down like this, you’re on your back and you just bring it out of its holster and straight up like this?
Fogen: yes sir
Irwin: You didn’t try to like push it into him or anything?
Fogen: no
Irwin: You just fired it, like almost from the hip?
Fogen: I like to think I made sure that it wasn’t…cause my hand was in the way- I made sure I was past my hand cause his other hand was still on my face, so I made sure….
Irwin: Was he that far away or was he right up on you?
Fogen: he was like putting all of his weight on my nose and mouth trying to suffocate me, so he was creating this crevasse with his body and then he like when he slid to go for my gun, (fogen pretending to be Trayvon, letting go of the mouth with his right hand and reaching across Fogen’s body for the gun)
Irwin: Did he go for your gun with his left hand or right hand?
Fogen: sigh, I don’t recall…I don’t recall…which hand he used.
First of all…had Trayvon had one hand on Fogen’s nose and the other hand on his mouth…where is Fogen’s blood on Trayvon’s hands or under his nails?? Fogen himself says that he had blood all the way up to his eyes when witness 6 came out. So, the blood didn’t come after he got up like all of those at the CTH like to say. HA Also, if Fogen was trying to get Trayvon’s hands off of his face, where are the scratches or marks on Trayvon’s hands or wrists or arms…where are the defense bruises on Fogens arms from defending himself??
Second, if Trayvon was putting all of his weight in Fogen’s nose and mouth creating a crevasse how did Trayvon feel the gun that would be in this crevasse?? How did Trayvon use his right hand to reach across Fogen’s body for this gun that was on Fogen’s right hip on the left side of Trayvon, while still putting all of his weight into holding Fogen’s nose? Of course after Irwin realized what Fogen had said and asked him which hand Trayvon used…Fogen can’t recall… even though he just showed him Trayvon supposedly used his right hand.
Sorry for the long post…I never write anything that long, but I need to vent when I listen to all of his lies.
Great post. It just points out how ludicrous GZ’s statement is when you consider the DNA results. I watched the Hannity interview last night during which GZ claims that TM punched him in the face more than a dozen times. He obviously never thought his story would be questioned so intently or that the condition of TM’s body would play into the story. I’m a Nurse Practitioner who prior to specializing in Pediatrics, worked in all areas, including trauma and ER. I never saw anyone, who came in with injuries from a serious fight, whose knuckles and hands weren’t bloodied, bruised, swollen and scraped to hell after being in a fight.
Also, after seeing the Hannity interview, it’s easy to see why BDLR thanked the defense for the same. GZ’s smiling and smirks are seen throughout. I hope as the prosecution plays the interview in the courtroom, whenever they pause the tape, they do so with GZ’s all-knowing smirk on his face clearly evident.
Professor, I know this is off topic but could you comment on what you think might happen with Shellie Z.’s perjury case? If there is any truth to the claim that Angela Corey had no jurisdiction, couldn’t the charges be dismissed without prejudice and then refiled by the Seminole Co. prosecutor? There is no way she should get off on these as she blatantly lied while GZ said nothing, knowing she was lying. Thank you.
Great post! It’s quite obvious that GZ never thought his story would be questioned nor that DNA or forensic evidence would play a part in determining the truth of his story. As a Nurse Practitioner, I initially worked in the ER and trauma and often treated patients who came in after a fist fight. Without exception, when someone was in a fight, his body told the story for
him/her and unless they never attempted to defend themselves, their hands were bloodied, bruised, scraped and/or swollen. TM’s hands showed no sign of having been in a fight, let alone having punched someone over a dozen times as GZ claimed on Hannity. I actually watched the interview for the first time last night, from beginning to end, unable to get through it prior to this. Now I know why BDLR thanked the defense for the interview. When the prosecution shows clips of it during the trial, I hope when they pause the tape, they do so at one of the many points where GZ is smirking and smiling.
I know this isn’t pertinent to this thread, Professor, but I was hoping you’d comment on whether or not you think that Shellie Z.’s attorney is correct in her claim that Angela Corey had no jurisdiction over her. If the charges were to be dropped without prejudice, would Seminole Co. be able to refile against her? I don’t want to see her get away with this perjury claim as she blatantly lied on the stand and GZ sat there, not saying a word about all the $$ in the bank accounts. They played the Judge for a fool and I don’t want to see them get away with this. Thank you!
One of the reasons you don’t see much comments from me concerning the questionable photo of GZ, is because the forensic evidence does not lie.
Had Trayvon had his hands over GZ’s nose and mouth, GZ’s DNA and blood would surely be found underneath Trayvon’s fingernails. It wasn’t.
Had Trayvon had his hands over GZ’s nose and mouth, the first thing GZ should have asked the EMT’s was if they were going to take samples for testing for Trayvon’s DNA. He did not.
GZ has told numerous lies and we can write a 500 book showing them all but what matters in this case is that forensic evidence shall overcome GZ’s physical evidence, because his stories contradict the physical evidence.
I was venting and think it’s always good to keep everything fresh in our minds and for new comers.
Trayvon’s button has been on my mind latley…. how did Fogen see that button if it was so dark? Did his flashlight shine on Trayvon showing the button before he pushed or grabbed him?- That is my firm belief..that it all started with Fogen either grabbing Trayvon or shoving him. I believe he was trying to “detain” him until LE arrived. There is no way he saw it when they were wrestling in the dark.
@7:10 into gz NeN call is when he starts describing him. He also says he was @ the clubhouse. I believe he watched him at the mailboxes for a couple of minutes before he called. He was very detailed about his description, even down to his button. Its possible he had his headlights on towards the mailboxes where Trayvon was standing under the awning where the mailboxes are located talking to DD.
I’ll say the phone records will answer some questions. I’ll add that someone else gave Fogen a description in advance.
There have been some great analyzes of GZ’s headlights in the clubhouse videos. I really appreciate those who have taken out time to present it. According to one such analysis, GZ made a U-turn and was facing in the direction in which Trayvon was walking towards him. (“He’s coming towards me now.”) With his headlights on Trayvon, he could then see the button and also confirm, “And he’s a black male.”
I can’t remember who Fogen was talking to when he mentioned the button…anybody remember? It wasn’t in the NEN call was it? He had to have been close to see that button, if it was when he was following Trayvon in his truck, it’s no wonder Trayvon got scared and ran. If it was when trayvon walked by his truck at the clubhouse it must have been very lit up there…and it is amazing that Fogen would notice such detail from someone walking by.
It was in his NEN call. “He’s got a button on his shirt, and he’s a black male.”
@chrisny~laurie — gz mentioned the button during his description of martin on the NEN call. however, when being interviewed by dets. serino and singleton he claimed no memory of it.
Thanks guys…and i just listened to the NEN call earlier today. i think I’ve spent way too much time on this today and need a good movie…or bed.
I think he was observing TM through binoculars. Either that or Fogen of one of his buddies first spotted him near the 7-11
Lonnie Starr said:
“Trust me, you’re not going to find an expert on the planet who won’t say that photo is edited.”
Does anyone here know anyone who would qualify as a photo-editing expert for legal purposes? I think this issue needs to be brought to Benjamin Crump’s attention somehow. He would need a ‘certified expert’ opinion, though. Corey isn’t going to look into this at all. Editing may even have been done by someone in her office, rather than at the SPD (it’s unlikely methinks, but not impossible).
I’m sure Mr. Crump gets a ton of email about TM every day, and most of it never gets read. Does anyone know how to get his attention. (Crane: does Professor Fred have any connections via the bar association that could suffice? PS: Get well soon, Prof.) Even if we consider the evidence of photo manipulation to be less than conclusive, it’s strong enough to warrant attention from the Martin family representatives, yes?
I don’t think it’s our job to hire a ‘certified expert’ since we aren’t parties to this case in any form.
And Ben Crump does take messages and emails on behalf of his clients, he’s made that quite clear. I personally had contact with him and i’m not a party, so to suggest he’s not reading most of the emails is false. He communicates with supporters all the time.
Also, Angela Corey has also stated if anyone has any information to forward it to her which she gives her contact info. And to suggest that her office would NOT look into this evidence or any other is an insult. and incomprehensible.
But to go further and suggest ‘editing may even have been done by someone in her office” is such a stupid comment i don’t believe it’ll do much good to acknowledge that or anything else you have to say. so i’ll leave that up to the others who have more tact.
You seem to have completely misunderstood every aspect of my post. Except for my distrust of Angela Corey, which I believe is shared by Malisha and others who comment here. Corey is a political ally of Tea Party governor Rick Scott. To suggest that a law and order Republican State’s Attorney would be less than eager to look into corruption in the State’s law enforcement agencies is hardly incomprehensible.
If there was photoshopping or editing or manipulation done, it is my guess that it had nothing to do with Wolfinger’s office or Corey’s office and that it was done by Wagner or some other party in the police department or connected with the police department. On the other hand, there didn’t have to be any photoshopping or editing to make the picture worthless as a piece of proof of alleged “self-defense.” That’s just silly. I’ve often gotten injured when I wasn’t defending myself.
There is a page to leave mail on his legal site. I’m sure he probably reads it, but he won’t reply.
You might try his Twitter as well.
I just sent an email about this thread to Crump and Associates. I don’t do Twitter. I also emailed the Maddow show, and left a comment on the webform for Rev Al Sharpton’s show.
Good job. I sent an email to Parks & Crump also.
Corey isn’t going to look into this at all. Editing may even have been done by someone in her office, rather than at the SPD (it’s unlikely methinks, but not impossible
—–
IMO, this is a ludicrous assumption. What good would it do Corey’s case to have edited this? At any rate, anyone who is a photographer, especially a forensic one, or a computer forensics expert could tell you that this is shopped.
I agree. The last thing the prosecution would risk is having altered this picture and risk the original popping up.
I’ve always wondered why Omara tries to make it seem like a good thing that the defendant show up to his court appearances and appearances with his officer he has to see every 2 days. He is court ordered and has to go. He also cant go anywhere because of his ankle bracelet and they can track him and they are also alerted when he tries to jump if he cuts it. The bail bondsman are not likely gonna want to lose a million dollars if the defendant jumps it and the defendant would get in more trouble if he takes off. I do not know why the court should give him a gold star for doing what he is supposed to do and has to do.
Is it just me, or did Omara just basically copy and paste the same motion he used for the appellate court when he wanted to use to recuse Lester in this modify bond motion?
His motions are becoming copy and paste, and I am thinking Nelson will just say it has already been ruled on, lets move on, we need to get the trial underway
Its been close to 5 or 6 months and yet, nothing has happened to the defendant
IMO he wants to retry the bond order so they can go back to the exact same arguments that have been gone over and then pull the same try and recuse stunt just because the whole world knows he is a liar and blah blah blah
What is up with the appellate court anyways? Are we really supposed to coddle people for lying and scheming the court? Or maybe the appellate just screwed them anyways by bringing Nelson in on purpose LMAO
I read the motions lastnight..been trying to play catch up after being busy for a few days. The motions are ridiculous if you as me. It’s like these recent motions were made to help his law suit against NBC instead of this criminal case. Revisiting Lester’s motion on restricton of his bond…really? I think Omara is doing more to try and get money than he is defending his client, but I also think that Fogen is ok with it because he thinks he is going to be able to lie his way out of this and end up rich.
I know you all have listened to the interrogation and know all of this, but i thought I’d post anyhow.
I’d like to start with NEN call. This is what Fogen is telling the detective doing the interrogation, he says the NEN dispatcher asks, “What street are you on” and “we need to know what house you are in front of” and “we need to know what exact address you’re at” and “we need to know what street you’re on or what address you’re at or where you’re at”
These are the only thing the dispatcher ever asks about any locations, “is it 1111 or 111?’, “he’s near the clubhouse?’, “which way is he running?”, “which enterance is that, that he’s heading towards?”, Where are you going to meet with them at?’, “what address are you parked in front of?”(he asked that at the end of the NEN call well after he was out of his truck), “do you live in the area? What is your apartment number?”, and Do you want to meet with them right near the mailboxes then?'” Those are the only questions regarding loacations. Obviously, Fogen didn’t know that NON emergency calls were taped.
He also tells the detective that he couldn’t see the witness that came to his door asking whats going on(witness 6) because he had blood in his eyes. He also says that he couldn’t see the policeman coming at him with the flashlight because he had blood all over his face and his eyes and it was dark where he was at. He then says that he was handcuffed and was in back of patrol car when paramedics came to him, after they went to check on Trayvon, they poured peroxide on the back of his head and felt his nose. I’m assuming that this infamous picture was taken around that time…so where in the heck is all the blood that was all over his face and EYES??? h e did not say they cleaned his face up and even if they did, we would see redness from the wiped blloodand there isn’t any! Ugh . So, much more I want to point out , but I need a break and for some reason I can’t correct mispelled words without it deleting my whole sentence.
Fell better soon Professor!
I think it is one of the reasons Omara is trying all these silly motions because he knows his lies will not hold up in court
because even his photoshopped picture does not support his story
If you read his motions, and his in court actions, he is trying to avoid the trial and the SYG hearing
hmmmmmmmm, very good point about those flat out lies that the 331 asked him all that address crap. when it’s all recorded. i remember earlier on when peeps where pointing out those lies, Omar said that GZ was confused by what the NEN was asking him for.
ya know, cas GZ is just a young, confused, traumatized, just trying to help out, kinda guy.
Personally, I think Tugboat had rain in his eyes. Perhaps he had a little blood dribbling into one eye from the tiny cut on the bridge of his nose.
He’s full of beans.
I’ve thought about the blood in his eyes thing but couldn’t he just say he THOUGHT it was blood but it must have been rain?
PHOTOSHOP CHALLENGE!
Ok, if you think it would have been easy to Photoshop that bloody nose pic, or you think your kid could do better, show us how. Take image #3 from the Imgur album I posted above and use your (or a friend or relative’s) wizardry to take it into Photoshop, Gimp, or whatever, and make the nose look as much like image #4 as possible (forget the blood on the lips for now). And do it without leaving obvious traces at the pixel level, so that it looks more-or-less as good blown up as does #4. Save your work at each significant step, so you can document how you did it.
Obviously, if somebody else can do a similar job on a documented original, that makes for a pretty good argument that someone inside SDP FDLE or SAO could have done it to the Wagner photo. And if no-one CAN do a similar editing job, that weakens the argument for a cover-up conspiracy.
Who was going to get back to us – the person who knew someone working with a class of kids on this challenge?
The Madonna photoshop examples are great. It just isn’t that hard to alter a photo if you have a good app and the skills.
Unfortunately there are too many variable for anyone to be able to duplicate someone else’s work, most especially with photoshop.
Also, because the pixel blocks in the altered photo aren’t mangled, that means that this is a picture taken of a picture. Since that’s the only way to correct the pixel block structure.
First step is, check the EXIF data of the original and secondary photos. But, remember, there is software that allows one to modify this data.
An examination of the hex file, for the pictures I have seen, shows only that it’s a Microsoft program that created the file. So, if the photo was photoshopped with adobe, taking a picture of that picture, would remove all the hex identification data.
But, we all know that a structural change to the nose bridge, cannot be repaired without surgery. So, if the bridge of GZ’s nose looked like that, on that day, it should still look like that today.
Because it doesn’t, the picture is altered.
Sharon Can MOM dump GZ? Or is he stuck with him for the duration?..He is stuck with him for the duration..He cant resign thanks to a fairly new law legislated in Florida..If an attorney comes on board a case bro bono…An thats exactly what M O M Stated when he first took on the acused as a client..PRO BONO he said remember he allegedlly didnt know about any monies in any peter pan pay pal acount..Now this new law says that any atttorney whom takes on a client voulantry bro bono…Cannot withdraw from said case/client for ANY REASON Least of all lack of financeall return…He keeps banging on about not being paid but he entered pro bona wich is a lawerly form of a charitbile act.At least its meant to be.Many use it to grab a high profile famous case.An think they will live high of the hog via fame fortune an fairy dust.Off course this doesnt stop the defendant fireing his attorney.Wich with gz is a very strong possability.Like the day before or the morning of the trial comences as a delaying tactic..He stans up infront of J Nelson for his last stand on the stand…Your Honour I dont want Mr O Mara defending me theres something up with him.Your Hounor I dont know what his deal is.Ive told him an Mr West lots of times an lots of differnt versions off what happened that dark stormy rainy night .An they just stare at me .Start laughing an getting other people from the law office to come check me out an my latest remembrance.So your Hounor I am sincerly hope that you will get it an grant my request for either a 3 year continuance so I can graduate law school an defend myself.Or grant a mistrial on the basis of me being innocent an the victim of a raceial conspiricy.
I’m pretty sure that a judge is allowed to refuse a request to change lawyers if it is getting too close to the trial date.
You are correct.
Sometimes I think the ole universe is takeing the piss.Here we are heading into Christmas the season of gooodwill to all..An I read an article about some dumbkoff named Patridge going loco an literly blowing someones head off over a petty argument..I swear If I find out tomorrow that someone named Peartree has gone postal..Im giveing up on news especialy true crime…..
Can MOM dump GZ? Or is he stuck with him for the duration?
To be honest, I do not respect Omara and he is just as sleezy as the defendant. They deserve each other and were meant for each other. Hopefully karma teaches him the way one day.
As far as I know, he is in too deep now to “dump” him. If he is aware of ongoing criminal activity on the part of his client, he can approach the judge and the judge would understand and rule on it, but it would not be ethical at this point because it would damage GZ. And not questionably like NBC, but really now, think about it. So no, ethically he is kinda stuck with him.
Here is a little something about it:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2011/04/pulling_out.html
Rachael: …… “So no, ethically he is kinda stuck with him.”
Huh? Did you see In Session interview with MOM? He has no more ethics than Chorge and can beat Chorge at his lying game.
Only problem with MOM’s lying game is his face and neck become extremely flushed and starts to sweat. But the lies are just as ugly and hateful as Chorge’s
Ethics are obviously not a concern for MOM. Just show him a camera and $$$$$ and he’ll say whatever it takes to ensure he wins freedom for his lying client.
Chorge, MOM and ShelLIE belong together.
jm, LOL – while I agree with you, are you saying that ethics aside, you think O’Mara would just dump him and let him hand out to dry, knowing he could lose his license over an ethics violation?
Actually, he can withdraw under these conditions:
An attorney may voluntarily terminate the attorney-client relationship at any time and without reason, ***if this will not have a material adverse effect on the interests of the client.***
***Even if the withdrawal will be adverse to the client the attorney may still withdraw for a number of reasons:***
1.The client is engaged in illegal or fraudulent activity.
2.The client fails to pay fees as agreed.
3.The financial burden on the attorney of continuing the representation is too great.
4.The client refuses to follow the advice of counsel, or engages in acts relating to the representation without informing the attorney or seeking the attorney’s advice.
5.The attorney is engaged with co-counsel of the client’s choosing, and is unable to work with that co-counsel.
I just don’t see it happening. Like you say, because of his own problem with *ethics,* there is no way he would withdraw at this time.
Rachael: “I just don’t see it happening. Like you say, because of his own problem with *ethics,* there is no way he would withdraw at this time.”
As long as the cameras keep rolling, interviews and press conferences to make a name for himself, there is money rolling in (MOM was begging again during the interview for donations for Chorge/MOM) and the good chance there is a book, “The REAL Chorge Zzzzimerman” MOM can write, there is no reason MOM would withdraw.
“How To Gain Fame And Fortune Defending A Racist Killer For Dummies” is another how-to book MOM could write.
The possibilities for an unethical attorney like MOM are endless.
No, no, no… This is wonderful! GZ has a lawyer who turns bright red and sweats when he lies. It won’t take the jury but an hour or two to figure this out. MOM will have to change clothes several times each day. The jury should enjoy watching MOM turn red then back, then red again, with sweat trickling down all day. Talk about a match made in heaven. LOL
Theres homacide now theres zimmercide ..the ole probale undisputed broken nose defence,, http://www.pressherald.com/news/Waterville-shooting-leaves-1-man-dead-.html
Not sure this will work, but here is a photoshopped image of a nose:
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQWMLmpVId6JPD2dD5Zx3T9qNGFjOSbHUW8ep8WWdKU2KyTYM5j
And here is a photo with a side view of GZ nose at the station to compare:
Ooops – ignore above post ^ – I see whonoze already has this covered.
Sorry
I don’t know if this helps, but I found a tutorial about how to photoshop a bloody nose:
http://fx.worth1000.com/tutorials/161219/161219-busted
Well, well…that’s quite an interesting tutorial.
Have some chiken soup cream of chiken with a sprinkling of cellery an some crusty lightly buttered bread .That will av you up an at em..Get well soon.
Thank you. When he gets to the stage where he is still nauseated but hungry at the same time, chicken soup will be perfect, I think. We already have the crusty French bread, so thank you again.
That is what I usually have when i am sick. Pretty much any type of soup is good.
I’m so sorry to hear that…I hope he feels better soon.
Has everyone seen the complete deposition between O’mara and Santiago and BDLR and Santiago. Is this new?:
Click to access santiagodeposition.pdf
I did not read the whole thing but it was pretty much what I figured he would say
That it was not that they did not want to file charges, they just felt there may not be enough
A few felt there was enough to file and went forward
Pretty uneventful if that is an authentic deposition transcript as I cant say due to the fact Jeralyn always spins things
I find it really hard to take seriously – it’s so incredibly inarticulate. Plus, these folks weren’t even considering Tugboat’s statement. This deposition makes SPD look really bad, in my opinion.
Did you notice the deposition released starts on page 43?
I noticed part of it was missing..I assumed it was about TM’s phone and they couldn’t…idk..I did not realize that 42 pages were missing though..
It started off strange and I immediately looked at the page number.
It was my understanding that transcripts of depositions were not to be released to the public. I wonder if Bernie knows about this?
Hello everyone,
Fred became ill last night and remains sick today. That is why he is absent at the moment. As soon as he is well enough, hopefully later on today, he will post a thread.
We encourage everyone to continue the discussions, and we thank you so much for your patience.
@Crane-Station
So sorry to hear about Fred. I hope he gets better real soon. Tell him we are flying straight and you have everything under control.
Get well soon Fred!!!
He is very glad to hear that, thank you. I know this is hard for him- being away, he has not been sick in years.
Plenty of rest, lots of liquids, and Jun’s chicken soup!
He has managed to make his way to the shower, so there’s hope.
What I do with my old man when he gets sick which is rare and he finally gets to go shower, is scrub him down, get all those nasty germs off of him. Then I proceed to take those germy sheets and replaced them with nice clean ones, feed him soup, water and orange juice. Tuck him back in and get some more rest. He reawakens feeling much much better after all of that TLC.
Hope this helps!!
oh, yes, i’m sorry to hear that too. thinking it might be the cold or flu, dehydration is something to consider, so drink drink drink. like 3-4 liters water (if he has the energy). my mom made us take VitC all day long. thousands of mgs though out the day: every time you go potty, 4000-6000mg. every time you eat something; 4000-6000 mg. every time you talk for 5 mins, 4000-6k mg… any type of exertion, take more. you can’t OD.
too bad we can’t have vit C intravenously pumped in all day. they do that at holistic healing and some natural doctor’s offices..
@ C-S, not trying to stick my nose in yours/his business :), but just in case you guys haven’t heard about that kinda treatment, i thought i’d mention it. B/C if there’s one thing i can’t stand, it’s being in the least bit ill. it’s THE WORST!!
No problem, thank you for this. We are going to try to get some Ginger Ale.
I was going to suggest ginger ale, specifically Vernor’s. Last time I was sick, it was the only thing I could imagine drinking. Graduated to soda crackers for solid food. My grandmother gave us jello when we were kids too.
Do you think Professor ate something that disagreed with him or is it flu?
Here’s sending positive and good thoughts your way for the Professor’s quick recovery. If you think he ate something bad, Milk Thistle extract is good. It naturally cleanses the liver.
If the flu, get a yellow onion, cut it at the top (not root) to peel it. Place it on something disposal (such as a paper plate) and place it close to where he is sitting and/or sleeping. The onion catches germs and viruses in the air. You should see it turn dark after awhile, in which you then throw it away and replace. Ever hear the old saying not to eat onions that have been left out because they have “fever” in them?
Actually water is NOT good for dehydration. You lose minerals like salt and potassium. Better to drink Smart Water or Gatorade as those help replenish more than just lost fluids.
Sent from my iPod
Send our wishes for a thorough and speedy recovery!
Sent from my iPod
Lots of liquids, Vitamin C, and Crane-Station XOXO!
Get Well Soon Proffessor.
Please tell the good professor to get well soon as we miss his voice.
Thanks, I have read this and other get-well comments today. It brings a smile.
Same from us !!
Get well soon, Professor!
Get well soon professor. Lots of clear liquids i really like apple juice for patients sipped not gulped it tends to even the stomach right out & try crackers they really help settle the stomach. Don’t
eat then drink you will get that nausea feeling all over again. I hope that you feel better soon.
Chicken soup for breakfast, yay! He is reviewing the comments and will be going onto the site here pretty soon.
glad to hear the professor is up and about, not to mention able to eat. my best wishes for a rapid recovery. i know he is in good hands.
ditto
@TM,
Hope you feel better also.
He’s still pretty sick. You know how it is, you think you feel better, but that’s not quite the reality!
Great! Maybe he should wait awhile though till he can digest his chicken soup. Whenever I read about Chorge and MOM I feel nauseated. .
Lord, he’s trying, but dang. He ate, showered, typed a few comments, and then fell back onto the bed.
Not trying to be his doctor but if the Professor thinks it’s food poisoning, he should take Milk Thistle extract. It’s in the vitamin section of drug and department stores.
Physicians are now using an IV form of Milk Thistle on an experimental basis — not yet FDA approved, but it’s sold as a vitamin supplement and has been for decades.
If he still has his gall bladder, it might not be food poisoning but a gall bladder attack. If he ate anything fried, pork, or drank a dark soft drink before becoming sick, that may be the key. If he were feeling better but ate pork, fried food, or something with high fat content, that would aggravate gall stones again. Gall bladder attacks last for about 12 hours and there is nothing that can be done other than pain medication. If this seems likely, the Professor should get to the ER or a doctor ASAP.
Thank you, Xena. We are not used to eating anything fried or deep fried at all, and this meal was definitely deep and double-fried! So, good information here.
Fred is a person who simply never goes to the doctor for pains or physical sickness. He has been once in the past 12 1/2 years and prior to that he had not been to a doctor since the ’60s. That said, I think he is on the mend, and he is looking at every suggestion here. We will look for milk thistle tomorrow if things don’t improve, and thank you.
Oh Crane-Station — don’t I know about husbands who don’t like going to the doctor.
If the onset of the problem may have been fried foods, then he shouldn’t have soup unless it’s low fat.
Milk Thistle is a liver cleanser. Burdock Root is also a good supplement because it’s a blood cleanser. With so many preservatives in our food these days, they both make good supplements.
Here’s sending good, positive thoughts to you and the Professor.
I will go on record here and defend all husbands with our unspoken mantra. “You can’t hurt steel” And that’s why the doctor is “The Last Resort”
LOL! Is that cold rolled or heat rolled steel? 🙂
@Xena,
I think Racer is REINFORCED steel. Hahaha
Make that Case Hardened Steel…..you see my stance with the Zidiots.
Case Hardened Steel
that must explain why my husband’s internet name is “Rusty Rebar”
Well, there ya go !!
bwa hahahah
Faux you crack me up, seriously though, you really cracked me up!
what can i say? it’s kind of my role in this world and luckily i found my partner in crime, one Rusty Rebar. we raise havoc in wide swaths across the interwebz.
I say that’s a damn good team, tear it UP!
Thanks for your concern and your suggestion.
I had gall stones many years ago and they were extremely painful. I don’t have those symptoms.
I’m pretty sure it’s food poisoning from some tartar sauce that I ate.
I’m well along the road to recovery with my appetite returning.
Just very tired.
Sending good and positive energy your way.
Don’t forget the Gatorade or Smart Water to replenish those crucial minerals!
Sent from my iPod
We are responsible for the choices we make and the acts we commit.
We should never demonize or taunt anyone and that includes the pathetic defendant.
Sorry, I had to laugh at this statement!!! “PATHETIC” CUTE!!!
I have another theory
West is a plea deal type of lawyer, considering his record
I feel West may have put across a plea deal idea to the defendant Fogenhats
But Fogenhats continued his persistence and onslaught of lies as if they were truths and insisted that they were truths in the face of evidence and the contrary
So West just played along
I believe West deep down wants his bread and butter and that is to plea deal LMAO
P S re above…Clint Eastwoods…Make my day….Was from Dirty Harry initialy I beleive…….
Sudden Impact.
M G S GZ probably pushed him, some how egged him on so TM had to defend himself, gave him a clear path to his schnoz. That would be the best way to get away with murder. The self-inflicted would scenario wouldn’t be necessary. When he confronted TM he probably was thinking like Clint Eastwood famously said in the movie Sudden Impact, “make my day.” That’s why he showed no remorse. He wanted to kill someone whom he considered to be a criminal….Trayvon never laid a finger on him let alone punched him…People shed skin all the time all over the body surface .Today D N A touch D N A can be found just by someone handling something or brushing past someone or something..If Trayvon had punched gz there would have been a two way transfer of D N A..Trayvons knuckles to gz nose.An vice versa gz skin cells to Trayvons knuckles.Forgett about blood an saliva an snot wich also have been present .There woulld have been significant skin cell transfer.Now as L E allowed gz to freshen up wash his face ect thats potential lack of evidence lost.How ever there was NONE of gz dna present on Trayvons hands wich proves beyond a shadow of a doubt he didnt punch gz..Unless he is suddenly going to remember he had boixing gloves on wich someone must have taken of with as a souvinear because I am a cause celibre more important than 9 11 in the anulls of American History,,,Yeah thats it someone stole the boxing gloves…..P S ..You can use that one george…….
While I’m not sure, I think it is possible that Trayvon could have butted against GZ (trying to escape) with maybe his head or shoulder after GZ had grabbed him.
In case the facebook doesnt work
The photo on the right is an authenticated photo of the defendant in the Trayvon Martin Murder Case, taken by police at the SPD in Florida station at around mid
night on Feb 27, 2012.
The photo on the left is a photo that has not been authenticated and is alleged to have been taken by Officer Wagner with his cellphone, and he turned it in 3 or 4 weeks after the murder of Trayvon Martin on Feb 26, 2012. Officer Wagner has claimed he forgot about the photo on his cell phone and he turned it in later on. The device he took the picture with, the original file alleged to be within it, is not available, of the photo on the left. The chain of custody is questionable, and IMO it is photoshopped and doctored and will likely not admissible in the trial against the defendant.
1.) If you compare the photo on the right (the authentic photo of the defendant) the width of his head has been doctored in the photo on the left.
2.) Also you will notice the chin on the left photograph is a lot more pointy and they thinned out his jawline. The defendant’s head is actually a lot more round and he was 200 pounds the night he murdered Trayvon Martin.
3.) If you look at the edges of the head on the left, they applied a photoshop shadow to the head.
4.) On the nose area, the person who doctored the photo, also applied a photo shop smear and coloring of the nose as the nose has a strange skin tone compared with the face
5.) The lips are also vastly different in both photographs
6.) The nose was not put on properly in the photo on the left and you can see that the ridge on the nose on the left has been moved to the right of the defendant’s face in the doctored photograph
7.) The blood on the nose is attached with the blood on the mustache, as if it was 2 dimensional
Officer Wagner will likely not want this submitted into evidence and ask for a plea deal because this is tampering with evidence in a murder trial and that makes the tampering a more aggravating circumstance.
It makes me think of a Mr. Potato Head nose, just kind of stuck on there. But why do you say Officer Wagner will ask for a plea? Has he been chsrged with anything, or do you mean if or when he is?
Officer Wagner’s foto and it is his allegation that he took this photo the night of the incident like 14 minutes after the murder
Since the photo is allege to have come from him, he is gonna get in trouble
But I think either the photo will not be allowed into evidence at trial because it is questionable
or Wagner can fess up to what happened with this photo, since he claimed he took it, and maybe plea a deal where he will not get into trouble
if he did tamper with this foto
Thanks for the comparison. I wonder if the face was purposefully thinned down to make Chorge look less hefty/bulky and possibly unable to hold his own in a fight.
The charge against him will be on the account of mishandling evidence in a murder case, that has got to be a very serious departmental charge, which, if they consider it to be serious enough, they can dismiss him and withdraw his pension.
Obviously the prosecutors department and the FDLE will have some input as to how serious a charge it should be and in light of a federal investigation into LE misconduct, it should be seen as very serious indeed.
I believe it was to make him seem less threatening because if you look at the pic on the right, the one that has been authenticated to have been taken by police, he looks menacing, while the one that looks photoshopped, he looks less threatening
I don’t think Wagner will be charged with anything by FDLE because I don’t think the picture will get into evidence and if it does not, then any tampering with the picture will not be material and will not amount to a crime under Florida law.
On the other hand, the FBI might really be interested in what Wagner did if they are doing a valid investigation of the SPD. We cannot know and probably will NEVER know if there is validity to the FBI investigation because they control information. Information is power. And we do not control it.
We just have to keep analyzing it and keep saying what we conclude, because ultimately, there IS value to real knowledge.
I don’t feel he will be charged either
I honestly feel the state will just ask it to be suppressed due to the chain of custody and they will also do what we did here and point out the doctor in the photos at a pre trial hearing
Ge. look at the blue T shirt in the Wagner pic and the gray T shirt in the real pic. Or is that just me.
Why don’t we have a “Find the discrepancies” contest.
LMAO We should do a contest like that and then send our findings to a news station and the state or Crump
http://imgur.com/a/xIhHs
Four pictures of GZ’s nose.
1. At SPD. Shows abrasion at site of swelling. If inflammation was caused by an abrasion to the skin, rather an injury to the nose structure, would it be more likely to recede after a few hours?
2. At SPD. A straight-on image where the bridge of his nose looks the widest. It also shows what looks to me like a little bit of remaining inflammation at the site of the abrasion.
3. At SPD, but from a different angle, under different lighting, and appearing to be a shorter focal length. The nose bridge doesn’t look so wide here, but it’s symmetrical.
4. Image of the photo from Ofc. Wagner’s cell phone, as released in recent discovery. Facial symmetry looks odd.
5. #4, with approximate color correction.
6. #4, with approximate correction of aspect ratio, as well as approximate color correction.
NOTES: As I was reminded, scaling an image in Photoshop recreates the pixels via an interpolation algorithm. The ‘Wagner’ image is 650 × 870, which is not the native resolution of any image sensor I know of, which means the photo was most likely either cropped or scaled. If it was scaled, it can be very difficult to tell what is a Photoshop editing artifact, and what is a scaling artifact. Having the full-resolution and/or full-frame image as it came off the cell phone would be necessary, I think, for a definitive analysis. I would assume the SPD has that, or did at one point. Perhaps it has ‘accidentally’ been deleted?
I would like to know the provenance, or ‘chain of custody’, of this photo. HOW was it transferred from his cell phone to a computer? WHO did the transfer? WHO processed the file, preparing the version that was released in discovery? WHAT was done, and HOW, in that processing, using what software?
(Do I think the SPD or the SAO will answer any of these questions? No I don’t)
Another observation
In the photo that looks photoshopped and I believe it is
How come there is no shadow, underneath the chin, onto the neck at all?
take the original pic from the defense website
note that although the face appears narrower that
-the nose has the same or larger relative width when compared to the pics from the PD
-The bridge of the nose remains relatively narrower to the rest of available landmark or calibrated widths no matter who much you widen the aspect ratio when compared to the PD pics.
this was not a professional photoshop job in my opinion
I hope grahase will give his professional opinion on your analysis
Also, consider the angle of the face and how the pic was taken…
The shadow should be appearing on the right side of the face of the defendant and there is nothing there!
Where did his right ear go?
Chorge’s head looks like it is angled strange in relation to his neck and the head looks too big for his neck to support. It almost looks like the head shot has been altered from another picture and then moved onto the Chorge’s body shot in the police cruiser. One thing for sure, Chorge does not look mentally traumatized minutes after taking another human’s life with maybe even a little smile/smirk trying to get through.
It looks like they copy and pasted the lower part of the nose, moved it down some, and then tried to make it look real. I swear I see 2 noses.
I am now absolutely convinced this photo is doctored
the defendant’s face is turned slightly to the right and the pic taken roughly str8 on
yet
there is no shadow on the right side of his face, at all!
Not on the jacket, not on the squad car
NOWHERE!!!
That is not scientifically possible considering the angle of the pic and the head
It was definitely cut and pasted on
Look around the whole head, you can see where it was photoshopped out and pasted in this pic
Tonydphotog asks, “Where did his right ear go?”
I have consulted my tarot cards and my pendulum, my ouji board and two gypsies, and now I have an answer:
There was a conflict between Fogen’s left ear and his right ear. The trip between the two was very very short because there was so little between them, and as a result, they often argued. You know how it is. This particular night, a sound came into the right ear saying: “Get off me, Get off!” and the left ear insisted that it heard, “You’re gonna die tonight, MF.” By the time both ears were in the squad car, the right ear was so disgusted and dismayed that it just packed up and left. Before going, it whispered, “I’m not gonna stand here on the side of his head and listen to THIS CHIT!”
MOM is going to hold a press conference to explain the absence of Chorge’s right ear. He is claiming thuggish Trayvon Martin went all Mike Tyson on poor Chorge and bit his right ear off. If you would like to donate to ear reconstruction for poor Chorge and hate black teens, please contact MOM. As a special offer, MOM will send you an autographed thank you card.
I believe the right ear, fell into the defendant’s empty head, but I do not have the forensics to back it up, so I am using Omara investigative tactics for my conclusion
Malisha – too funny!!!
I’m going to play with it in photoshop, and see if I can make it look normal. I’m almost 100% certain that the “liquify” filter was used to make the lips, and nose, look swollen.
@jun
His head is turned slightly to his right, or our left looking at it. So the highlight is on his left, our right. The shadows from the nose are on the correct side. The question is, are they the right size and shape. When you use ‘right’ and ‘left’ please be sure to indicate whether you mean HIS right or left (‘stage right’ or ‘stage left’), or the right or left sides of the photo (‘camera right’ or ‘camera left’).
@jm
His head looking too big to be supported by his neck is purely a by product of the lens focal length, the camera angle, and the camera-to-subject distance. No issues there.
If a camera is pointed straight at a person and their head is slightly turned to their right (the defendant in this case), there should be a shadow on the right side of the defendant’s face, as well as onto the jacket
I even tested it myself with a flash camera in the dark a few times and there was a shadow everytime on the right side of my face going onto my chest and neck and into the background
There is none in the defendant’s purported photo of his alleged injuries, the photo which has no chain of custody, so therefore, it is photoshopped
I was actually speaking of the right side of the face
Considering the way the defendant is facing the camera, there should be a shadow on the right side of the defendant’s face due to the physics of light and objects. There should be a shadow on the right side of the defendant’s face and it should be relegating onto the side of his face, onto the vehicle and on his clothing and body yet there is none. You can tell it is a definite photoshop because of that. There should also be some shadows from the chin onto the neck and there is none.
Another indication of editing: the wound on the bridge of his nose.
In the station pics it’s on the cam-left side of the front of his nose. But you can clearly see more nose falling off farther cam-left.
In the bloody pic, the wound appears to be all the way on the cam-left side of the nose, and there is no space between it and the shadow line of the eye socket.
This would seem to indicate that the cam-left side of the nose was partially removed, and the eye socket shadow extended toward cam-right.
I think this is why the image looks so unsettlingly asymmetrical: the nose bridge has been narrowed, but only on the cam-left side.
Got message, I sent a test message . I subscribed to the page you suggested.
Whonoze,
Great comment. I’d like know the chain of custody as well. I’d also like to know why the picture of the back of GZ’s head was released early on and the frontal view was not. There has to be a reason for this.
In the recent doc dump, there’s a statement to the FBI from an “unknown witness” (the name & info is redacted) The statement seems to come from an astute observer who works for SPD. This person says that there’s an obvious “good ole boy” mentality in the police dept. This person is listed as a witness so I suspect we’ll hear from he/she at trial.
If what I’m thinking is right, I wonder if Wagner is one of the “good ole boys” and he thought that GZ’s picture wasn’t convincing enough so he had it doctored. Just a thought but I definitely think the State will go in this direction at trial.
Can’t wait!! 😎
Jun says:
December 9, 2012 at 10:37 am
Also, consider the angle of the face and how the pic was taken…
The shadow should be appearing on the right side of the face of the defendant and there is nothing there!
——–
I get what you’re saying, but the photo was taken at such a close proximity that there really wouldn’t be much in the way of shadows anyway. Now, if the camera person had stepped to the right (our right) just a smidge more, then we would be seeing more shadow of the nose.
I have experimented myself with my camera and there was a shadow onto the right side of my face as well as under my chin
Not to mention 2 different color T shirts.
Whonoze,
My apologies for not posting the link. Here it is.
Click to access sa_alexander_w50.pdf
This is the FBI witness who describe SPD as a “good old boy” network.
Correction, the person does not work for SPD. The witness works in the City of Manager’s office.
HEY JB!!!
I’m not understanding why gz’s lawyer is allowed to go on tv and say things that aren’t true.Is this legal in the U.S.Do you think he could have been threatened by someone.I know I’m sounding a little paranoid but I don’t understand why this is legal.
Because they don’t want the case tried in the media. That means they can go on TV, the internet, anywhere and say whatever they want but no one else is allowed to comment on it or question it or say anything against the case.
He’s not under oath when he’s on TV.
And his lies do not count, since he is not giving evidence; he was not there when Fogen killed Trayvon Martin.
What if all jurors don’t agree? It’s a mistrial right? How soon would the state re file those charges and will forgen be given his passport back in the injustice of a mistrial . But I don’t worry if it is, I guess the Feds will be waiting
They want to get to as many potential jury members as humanly possible, IMO, this way they can gauge public reaction to see how they might do in front of a jury panel.
Does anyone have a copy of the bloody nose photo?
I am thinking of putting it side by side with a legitimate photo from the state
You missed my post yesterday? 😦
??
Just a question
If someone is tried for murder 1
can they be retried for manslaughter?
@Jun – no, no one can be re-tried for the same crime if acquitted, that would violate the ‘double jeopardy’ rule.clause of the 5th amendment.
however, in florida in this case, gz is charged with murder2 which includes all lesser charges, including manslaughter. if at the time of deliberation, the prosecution thinks that they may not have been successful with their murder2 charge, they can request that the judge insert language in jury instructions that the jury can find the defendant guilty of manslaughter or other lesser charges.
This might be a stretch for Florida jurors, but could they increase the charge, or does the State have to do that?
as far as i understand florida state law, the prosecution would have to file an amended information with new charges added – the professor can correct me if i am in error.
okie dokie
Murder 1 in Florida requires an indictment by the Grand Jury, and a jury of 12.
yup xena, this is also true, i neglected to mention in my initial response, thanks for the friendly amendment. 🙂
also, for Jun and Blushed-Brown
the minimum mandatory sentence for manslaughter in florida is 20 years, with an additional mandatory penalty of 10 years for the victim being a minor. this makes a total of a 30 year sentence, 85% of which must be served before any early release is considered.
although i believe strongly that M2 is the appropriate charge, i would not shed a tear at a mandatory 30 year sentence if it came to that.
So either way its good. No tear shedding on that.
Faux McCoy- with GZs temper, I highly doubt he would EVER qualify for early release.
Sent from my iPod
Well,I hope that the prosecution includes that charge that Anita Alexander was convicted for, because according to GZ, he did not know whether he actually shot Trayvon. Rather than trying to find out where the bullet went, he jumped on Trayvon’s back to “frisk” him. He fired his gun in a residential area where he knew residents were home. A conviction on that charge carries 20 years, statutory.
In Florida, any murder or manslaughter, with a firearm is an automatic 25 to life. It is an aggravated circumstance depending on the degree and if the victim is a minor or an elderly person
my information came from here as well as a variety of other sources – i would be interested in your source, since it varies
http://statelaws.findlaw.com/florida-law/florida-involuntary-manslaughter-laws.html
Penalties and Sentences
Florida state laws establish manslaughter as a second degree felony, which may result in a term of imprisonment for up to fifteen years, a fine of an amount up to $10,000, or both. If the defendant committed aggravated manslaughter, such as manslaughter of a child or elderly person by culpable negligence, the state treats the offense as a first degree felony, which increases the potential term of imprisonment to a maximum of thirty years. Florida laws also require the state to consider the defendant’s criminal history and determine whether the defendant is a career criminal or habitual violent offender; if so, the state may be able to increase the defendant’s punishment.
Can someone explain the fraud exception to the double jeopardy rule?
It says that if a trial is a fraud, it does not hold back a permission for the permission to be retried for a crime because the defendant was never in jeopardy in the first place
What exactly would have to be a fraud?
I also heard another exception is to have a motion to set aside a judgement to appeal a not guilty
The only thing I know for sure is the double sovereignty rule to double jeopardy, and there is a federal law for murder 2 as well, so the feds can have a swing at person too
Like for example, Emmett Till’s murderers, they openly admitted to murdering and torturing the kid years after, and my understanding is double sovereign means they can be tried federally since they were only tried by the state
What I’ve heard of more frequently is that the person will be tried in the federal courts for violating the victim’s civil rights, apparently so that it is a different crime than the one(s) which they were tried for on the state level.
I found this on google
“[U]nder the so-called dual sovereignty doctrine, the double jeopardy clause of the United States Constitution does not prohibit successive federal and state prosecutions for the same conduct.”
There cannot be any claim, in my opinion, that will give rise later to a finding of “fraud” in this trial, because both sides were ably represented, and both sides had access to evidence.
Jun, it’s “double jeopardy” that means you can’t be tried twice for the same crime, no matter what you call it. It’s “sovereign immunity” that means you can’t be tried for a crime OR a tort if you are “the sovereign” or otherwise “immune” to prosecution. The sovereign used to mean the King, and now means any governmental agency that a judge wants to protect. Very corrupt law and should have no place in our constitution in this day and age. But it’s the 11th amendment to the Constitution, even before slavery was abolished by the 13th Amendment. It was more important to protect government officials for their crimes than it was to declare people to be human beings. Go figure.
Malisha
Perhaps not this trial but there may be possible dishonest and corrupt jurors
but what I am saying is what do they mean by exception?
The exception states that if the trial is a fraud, the defendant was never in jeopardy, therefore double jeopardy does not apply
What do they mean?
Jun, a couple of situations in which I have heard that this would happen are (1) if evidence was introduced that the attorney for that side knew to be wrong or phony, or (2) if the prosecutor knew of evidence that was exculpatory (would point to the defendant being innocent) and did not share it with the defendant’s lawyers or introduce it in court. Either of those could lead to the trial being thrown out after the fact. There may be other situations that would, also.
A Father tries to sell guns at a gun shop that does not buy and accidentally shoots and kills his 7 yr old son. The gun that killed the 7 yr old is a 9 mm.
http://news.yahoo.com/police-boy-7-shot-death-pa-gun-store-200049283.html
And to my sick shock, the cops are treating this case as “an accidental death”. ACCIDENTAL! No, it was stupid negligence! It was child abuse! But NOT an “accident”. A mother can be sent to jail for leaving her kid in a hot car but this ignoramus doesn’t get arrested for carrying a loaded weapon that killed his own son. SMH TIL IT RATTLES.
Sent from my iPod
The article said that the father may be charged with manslaughter. Just goes to prove that when owning a gun whose sole purpose is to kill human beings, that is what happens. Bullets don’t know one person from another. Death does not discriminate. It cares not about race, age, physical height, weight, gender, financial status.
I get an inferior rag called the Houston Chronicle. The article I read this morning was short and didn’t mention any possible charges. Instead it said it was being investigated as an accident. Manslaughter is appropriate.
Sent from my iPod
He was greatly distressed, it was a simple human failure, he believed the gun to be empty, it wasn’t.
The few times I’ve handled guns, I was always told to be sure, never to let it idly point at anyone at all. I’ve been told to be sure
to follow this rule, whether I knew the gun to be empty or not.
It made a lot of sense to me, so I always have made absolutely
certain to never handle a gun so that it points at anybody at all.
After all, unless you’re intending to shoot or hold someone at gunpoint there’s absolutely no need to allow it to point at anyone ever, considering what it could do by some mistake.
I thought that rule I was taught was universal, but, apparently not.
You know, you are right. The father probably was very upset. But as usual, my focus goes to the victim. Seven years old is the age I teach. I could not stand to think of any of “my kids” dying because of a stupid parent.
Sent from my iPod
WOW Professor, after the Elder Basby called Shirley a bitch, watching the last post/video, its really hard not to refer to GZ as a punk ass coward, wanna be cop coward and way less than a man or way less than the boy Trayvon was but, Professor, at your request, I will comply. My own morals teach me this but it does not warn me about peope in the world like GZ.. You should always treat others better or like you would want to be treated but if I was a killer, I don’t think I would care. Did GZ take the high road when it came to dealing with a teenager and clearly he should have as most aldults are expected to do but we shall be mindfull at the Professor’s request. GZ, u owe the Professor!!!!! But no one is saying to the defense team, treat the victim with a little dignity and respect, at least publicly, its all about the killer and having mercy on him. Morals dont matter, the right thing to do doesnt matter to the defense team, doesnt matter to treepers but like you said professor….somebody has to take the high road and the angry people, who wanted revenge on GZ, maybe TRACY MARTIN, took the high road, by not killing GZ, he took the highest road and sometimes, a dog has to be called out, had it not been for this person not being called out we would have never been here. Trayvon would still be dead and nobody would have know. GZ doesnt deserve anybody’s respest but the people sending him money, but what he did, what he has said and what his defense team is going to do is beyond imagination and its a disgrace to the SPD and all the community, its a disgrace to our country because, our rights have collided aganist each other but the minority gets the loosing end of the stick, the dead minority. If Tracy Martin would have said, Im going to take the high road and let things stand as they are, Im not going to fight or argue with these people, Im going to let the Lord fight this battle and Im just going to take the high road, then GZ would have walked away spot free. There is a time to take the high road but sometimes the high road is not as high as we think.But treepers, should be ignored because they lack…common sense in most cases but the point is “they lack”, so with that in mind, I pay them no attention and they dont have enough sense to bring out the worst in me. I love my country but I am so frustrated when i get charged with a minor crime, family violence assault, my child was molested by a family member, but cant get my court appointed lawyer because I had enough money to get out of jail, so I will have to represent myself but what if I take the high road? meaning not challenge the judge because laws are in place to prevent Judges from this, I mean should I take the high road?, nobody that has been able to bond out of jail can get a court appointed attorney and…I should take the high road,but thats not right, its not the law but like the SPD, the minorities, they dont care to question what you say but….not me and not Tracy Martin.
@Erica, i was trying to read your comment last night but i kept passing out! I’m glad my mouse was still touching it this morning or i mighta missed it!
anyway, i feel the same as you. i’m sick about all the courtesy given to the liar and lawyer. It’s really getting out of hand now. GZ has set a new president of killing the victim after death. and torturing the parents too.
Tracy Martin is doing the right thing b/c he still has other people depending on him. But if he didn’t, i personally would support any justice he’d want to take into his own hands.
I know someone who’s stepfather has gotten away with what he did now for 27 years .he committed the ultimate crime after years of committing other ( pretty awful, but not deadly) crimes. And Just like GZ, he was never really forced to answer for any of those earlier, if he had i’m sure he wouldn’t of attempted the final one.
There was a time where the step kid had the resources to impose the justice he deserves. it was consuming this person’s entire life, day and night they would plot revenge. but then they got some help because they knew it wasn’t right to have all those thoughts. and finally decided to let *karma* do her job. But as far as i’m concerned, to this day, karma failed miserably and didn’t settle up.
In this case GZ is charged, the evidence is clear, and the whole world is watching. In the end I believe GZ’ will get his punishment and Trayvon Martin’s legacy will have changed the world. It won’t be “worth it” of course, but it will affect significant changes in our justice system the next time an innocent kid’slife is snuffed out. Hopefully anyway.I know for me, this case has taught me about racism that i’d never had known otherwise. And so it will also teach my son what he’d never know otherwise. This really is the trickle down effect. i’m grateful for that, and the people who have taught me.
i can’t stop hating that murdering POS, but i can try to be respectful of Proff’s blog in the hopes that we are doing the right thing.
i can’t stop hating that murdering POS, but i can try to be respectful of Proff’s blog in the hopes that we are doing the right thing.
That says it all for me.
I do not like the defendant at all either but let’s just be the bigger person and just be better
The goal is to make him face up to his crime in prison
We can still make jokes about him once in a while I believe
But Fogenhats is definitely a piece of work and a very evil person
On top of terrorizing and killing a kid, molesting his cousin, attempting to rape his cousin, terrorizing other people in his complex whom he deemed unworthy, running the complex as if he owned it, attacking police, committing crimes with his gang as a youth, getting donations from crazy people, and now, he wants even more vindication
I do believe in Karma and what they say in America, what goes around comes around, and what went around from the defendant has been cooking for a while and it is set to come back around soon
What is most important is he is in prison and the victims of all his crimes can get some peace at last and this lying murdering criminal will get his just desserts
@shannon…lol I guess I could have used bullets, heck…maybe even a paragraph or 2…. Sry
Thinking about Joe Oliver’s most recent, carefully rehearsed and pretty well acted statement (for it was a statement, not an interview) about Fogen, I am struck by the fact that Oliver is saying essentially that only CHARACTER is the defense of Fogen. Since Oliver claims to know Fogen’s CHARACTER, he knows his innocence. But if Fogen’s CHARACTER is in play, it’s going to be quite a trial. One would think that O’Mara would be careful to keep Fogen’s character out of the mix. For every Joe Oliver, there are a dozen “cousin-accusers” and for every Frank Taaffe, there are a dozen “Middle-Eastern co-workers” and for every Osterman, there are a dozen RTL residents who didn’t like Fogen’s “patrols.”
Funny new statement, Oliver made. “I know Fogen’s good so this charge can’t be true.”
It makes me even more perplexed by Fogen’s bizarre sense of entitlement. Even a real cop would have to face charges after shooting an unarmed kid who was not involved in any crime. And Fogen actually believes, and is indignant about, the idea that he SHOULD have gotten away with it on his word alone. He believes he should NOT have had to go through the whole legal process; the cops SHOULD have been able to give him a pass. He thinks it is wrong and that Sharpton et al. should APOLOGIZE to him for what they did in insisting that he be arrested and charged with a crime, after he killed a kid. His sense of entitlement is so shocking that we forget that it is just a “sense of entitlement” and nothing more compelling than that.
Amazing. Astonishing. Bizarre in the extreme. Beyond Belief.
As much lying the defendant does, it is fairly clear he and his cult are the ones who lack morals and are not upstanding and truly evil people
On top of killing a kid (murder), he has done a lot of evil things to others, and has manipulated and schemed many, yet expects people to trust him at his word, especially when science says otherwise
He expects everyone to bow down to his authority and lies
Now he wants NBC to pay him for reporting about him stalking and killing a kid, potential motivation, due to an ambiguous epithet yelled over a recorded phone call
A young boy has lost his life due to the defendant’s actions that he instigated and ended a confrontation of, and all he cares about is his fake bloody and broken nose and his photoshopped pictures, and being able to travel Florida freely and talk to witnesses, likely to intimidate them, as we have lots of evidence of
My conclusive analytic of Fogenhats, is he is a very selfish person, who just want what he wants all the time, and does not care how he will do it
When faced with actual reprehension and consequences for his actions, he moves to scheme and manipulate to get his way
You can tell by the fact he tried to rape his cousin and molested her for a decade, he forced Trayvon to have to meet with his authority when the kid did not want anything to do with him, and to satisfy his bloodlust he murdered the kid because in his mind all that matters is him
You can also tell by his myspace when he talked of skipping charges and getting others to take the fall for him
He did it to his wife, and now he is doing it to Trayvon Martin
Personally, I do not feel Fogenhats is the first nor last defendant to try all the mess he is trying and the only difference is social networking just blows it up worldwide
I believe in Karma and I believe that she has something in store for Fogenhats very soon
@Jun. Amen!
I think GZ baited TM into hitting him so he’d have a ready-made “accuse” as the reason why he had the right to kill TM– who he thought was just another @%# who was “always gets away with things.”
GZ probably pushed him, some how egged him on so TM had to defend himself, gave him a clear path to his schnoz. That would be the best way to get away with murder. The self-inflicted would scenario wouldn’t be necessary. When he confronted TM he probably was thinking like Clint Eastwood famously said in the movie Sudden Impact, “make my day.” That’s why he showed no remorse. He wanted to kill someone whom he considered to be a criminal.
I dont feel Trayvon ever hit the defendant at all. There were no marks at all on his knuckles and there was no NOSE or other DNA from the defendant on his hands. I still believe he staged his injuries and then had someone photoshop pics to try and make them appear worse than it really was. This also included getting Rourke to lie in court about the 45% blood. But even if the 45% thing was true, it is more the reason that the victim should have had blood all over his hands from the defendant and that is not available, tracewise.
Considering the defendant targeted and stalked the kid with intent, because his motivation was deep seated hatred and he did not want Trayvon to get away, he stalked the kid and chased him. The defendant gave away that evidence with what he said and the most important and him stating “SHIT, He’s running” and then the defendant proceeds to run after the victim. To yell that out signifies that his motivation is to get this kid, since he yelled out an expletive that the kid was running away from, which states that he is unhappy that he is running away from him, so he runs after him. Then he confronts the victim, which we have proof of, and threatens the kid, hence the victim screaming.
Considering this, the victim was allowed and justified to use reasonable force to defend himself as it is reasonable to believe a complete stranger, who refused to identify themselves kept running after you, when you were trying to get away from them. There is further proof in the way that the defendant grabbed the victim by the shirt and pulled him towards him and shot him, which also signifies he refused to let him get away. The victim had every right to be fearful of death because he was eventually killed by the defendant, and you can’t expect a complete stranger who keeps stalking you everywhere with anger, to have good intentions towards you. However, there was zero forensic evidence to back up the ideal that the victim even struck the defendant at all, even in self defense, because there was no trace at all on his hands, from the defendant!
Lastly, the stalking was unnecessary and the confrontation was even more unnecessary as well as the killing was even more unnecessary since the victim posed no threat to anyone at all, including the defendant, and in fact, kept trying to get away from the defendant, but in the end, he would not even let him go, and just had to grab him by the shirt, and pull him towards him, and shoot him in the heart! The forensics and ballistics prove this because the shirt of the victim was pulled toward the defendant by the defendant, and then pulled downard and to the left, and the gun made contact with the shirt only when fired, and the bullet hit from intermediate range. This is the only way the bullet holes line up! This is the only way the shirt and the chest wound had those readings!
So in conclusion, we have a defendant who targeted a kid with candy and ice tea walking home, the defendant proceeds to stalk and threaten the young boy, the young boy was too scared to even fight and all he did was scream, the young boy never even attacked the defendant even in self defense, and then the defendant grabs the young boy trying to get away, locks him in and shoots him in the heart, throws the kid facedown and sits on the kid’s back asphyxiating him, and then starts molesting the kid’s body by running his hands all over the victim ie the kid. Afterward the defendant was seen fiddling with his head and plotting. The defendant spent the rest of the time scheming and manipulating the public and law enforcement because he did not want to face the consequences of his actions, nor has he shown any regard at all for the human life he took. All he has done is slander the victim to raise money for himself, sue NBC for reporting news of this injustice, and continue his onslaught with his defense lawyer, and you can see all his false information he has presented worldwide!
It is time to serve justice and it is murder 2, ladies and gentleman
China is watch, they’re wonder why we put up with all this, in their country he would have been shot already. They don’t yet understand what it takes to have real freedom, nobody gets anything for free, this is one of the prices we have to pay to enjoy our Constitutional rights. We can’t simply restrict them to people who are popular, we must suffer the unpopular as well.
In this case though Lonnie, does China’s actions not make more sense and use common sense than the US?
Zimmerman minimum would be in prison in China if he stalked and killed a kid
The lawyer pulling all these lies would be in prison too
There wouldn’t be a lawyer in China, and if GZ were arrested, he’d be allowed to plead guilty in court and probably be sentenced to a quick death.
Unless we get some sanity back in this country, we’ll probably be headed back to star chamber/witches of Salem type trials, where the popular view wins no matter what the evidence says.
We know our system isn’t perfect, but when it fails we expect it to be a mistake and not by nefarious design. Too many nefarious designs succeed and that’ll be it for the rule of law.
“In this case though Lonnie, does China’s actions not make more sense and use common sense than the US?”
Jun, actually, the answer is an emphatic NO!
If we have special exceptions, who gets to decide when we should make those exceptions?
Someone who has been accused of particularly serious crimes like murder and rape especially needs the protection of a fair and complete examination of the evidence.
Did anyone else see the 60 minutes piece about some black teenaged boys in Chicago who had been pushed into confessing to rape and murder? And the DA didn’t want to reexamine the case even when, years later, DNA evidence was found that pointed to someone else?
I did.
What caused me to say “HA!” was the case where the Asst. State;s Attorney said that the DNA matched a man who could have come by and raped the woman after the one she convicted killed her.
Malisha- there used to be a show about the supernatural called Beyond Bizarre. I think the sheer absurdity of MUCH of GZs stories fit in with the title: Beyond Bizarre.
Sent from my iPod
pretty much all of the defendant and his minions ask the whole world and the state to disregard all science and logic
and apparently a photoshopped bloody nose photo is the end all be all to be exonerated from all crimes
Robbed a bank?
Bloody nose, acquitted
Prostitution ring?
Bloody nose, acquitted
and my deadhead contribution which somehow feels appropriate for this topic (should my attempt to embed not work, kindly fix for me)
Oops. The video posted upthread.
@xena – how do you embed videos here? i used the youtube ’embed’ option, but as you can see, it does not work right. any clues would be appreciated. thanks!
YouTube just changed their look. For some videos, if you click “share” a box pops up with the code to embed. For others if that box doesn’t pop up, use the URL at the top of your browser.
I also have a code that I enter manually that prevents other videos from appearing after the one you played has ended (no one noticed that, uh? — but I won’t share my secret here for fear that enemies might read it. 🙂
You can post a comment to blackbutterfly7.wordpress.com so I’ll have your email address and will email it to you.
professor, i appreciate this post very much. i know that for my own sense of well being, that it is critical to treat others how i wish to be treated. my opinion of gz and his entourage could not be lower, but i cannot bring myself to call them names or wish harm upon them. justice, however, i hope and pray for on a daily basis for whatever that is worth. refraining from cursing will be a challenge as it is considered an art form in my family, but i shall do my best.
you are running a good place here, let’s all work together to keep it that way. i for one am more than willing.
Just in Time for Christmas – the Mayans have published a 2013 Calendar.
Trouble is, I can not find out where to buy a few. Yea, I know – it isn’t the end of the world.
Oh, so that descendant of Incans must still prepare a defense?
Grahame- LOL! No it’s not the end if the world!
Sent from my iPod
I mean the tune would go well with those lyrics
Malisha that folk song would the lyrics you wrote Old Foggens Goat .Would go well with an old Irish Folk Song also about a Goat.Its called Paddy McGinntys Goat.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z1uy1wL5cs
Colin B, my mother taught kindergarten, long ago. She had a piano in her classroom. She had written her dissertation on the folk songs of the Appalachian Mountains. She had over 200 of them written out by hand and the notes written out by hand. Old Grogan’s Goat was just one among those 200+. I didn’t like the song at the time, because I couldn’t figure out how somebody would “tie” a goat onto the railroad tracks — my mind was, as they say, “concrete and fastidious.” Another song she had in there was “John Henry” but that one had over 100 versus! Once I memorized about 50 of them, have now forgotten. When my mother died I didn’t get back to her classroom until about three weeks later. Her only copy of the folk songs was gone. I was absolutely astounded (who would take my mother’s song book?!) and felt horribly betrayed. But I didn’t carry on too much because it was a kind of tarnish to the outpouring of condolences I got from the staff and teachers at her school. Old Fogan brought back all those memories, the good and the bad, to me. Kind of a weird experience. Anyway. I’ve been singing the damn thing all day, can’t get it out of my head.
I wish I could make funny videos like LLMPapa does. I’d do “Old Fogen’s Goat” for sure. With a blue-grass sounding banjo background.
Once I wrote a song about the DeShaney Case. To the music of Turkey in the Straw:
Mizz De-Shaney, now don’t choo raise a fuss,
’cause there’s no special relationship ‘tween Joshua and US.
See if this fixes it.
Colin, you gave me the idea of checking out the song that Malisha used on Youtube to see if it is the same tune as the song that I learned. It actually seems to be called Bill Grogan’s goat. The tune is similar to the tune that I learned for Sippin’ Cider, but seems to not be identical to it.
Colin, that’s hilarious! Especially the picture of the angel.
Have you read Gabriel Garcia Marquez’s short story: “The very old man with enormous wings”?
It occurred to me hours after I wrote my other reply that the song “Oh the Deacon went down” has a similar tune to both “Bill Grogan’s Goat” and “Sippin’ Cider”. So I guess it really is one of those songs that has many incarnations.
And no, I am not actually as obsessed with this as I may seem!
UPDATE:
I’ve been staring at pictures of GZ’s nose for hours now. I made a boo-boo in my earlier post about the possible editing artifacts. I was actually looking at my attempt at aspect ratio fix instead of the ‘original’, and what I thought could be editing artifacts were actually artifacts of my stretching of the picture back to what seemed a more proper shape. **sigh**
SORRY ABOUT THAT!
However, I’m still not convinced that the photo has NOT been messed with, due to the shape of the nose as Tzar mentioned above. Not the pushed out ‘swelling’ but the possibly pushed-in bridge that makes the swelling look bigger.
I have also noted that:
a. another pic from the station clearly show an abrasion on the side of GZ’s nose
b. in yet another pic there appears to sti be some slight swelling there
c. in all three straight-on pics from the station, the bridge of his nose looks wider or narrower depending on the height of the camera, the focal length, and the lighting.
But it’s not the size of the bridge in the bloody-nose pic that unsettles me. It’s the shape. An asymmetry that goes beyond the bump.
to be cont.
Do I remember you from HuffPo?
I have never posted on HuffPo, nor do I read it.
Why couldn’t it be a meta-picture– a hi-res photo of a photo? Then you wouldn’t have left-over files, ragged pixel meshing, artifacts and bothersome evidence of tampering, and best of all, the original is said to have been deleted! You only have an emailed picture attachment without a chain of custody.
Yep, that’s exactly the explanation of why the pixel blocks are in order. Otherwise you can’t alter the picture at all without it being easily detectable in a pixel level exam. It’s the altered proportions that give it away.
another issue is the shadow
consider the angle the pic had to have been taken
since it is the left side of the defendant’s face
There should be a shadow on the right side of the face and there is none!!!!!!
The shadow is on the left side of the face!!!!!
Jun dont ever underestimate the falsehoods an lies that came out of team trunkmoms defence team not just Baez but the lot of them includeing her parents an brother..Forinstance Baez got in front of the cameras straifgt of the get go an told the m s m an local media press anyone whom would listen that Caylee was alive an well.Definetly not dead an everyone should keep there eyes open .Told us there were tips comeing in every day of a live Caylee.Though most of them eminated from or via the defendants batshit crazy mother sindy.He went on with this speil of a live missing/kidnapped Caylee right up untill the remains where found on the first peice of un developed spare land round the corner form the wee girls home..Then he gets up in opening statement at trial an tell the world that Caylee was never missing.In fact she drowned in the pool that very first day June 16 th in the backyard.An casey an her father then somehow conspired to make an accident look like a murder.An even although casey waited a month to inform anybody her daughter was missing..She was in fact already dead..So what a load of bollocks an when exactly as he going to inform the world Caylee wasnt missing but the victim of an accidental drowning??Beleive me the lieing told in court was nothing compared to the lieing pre trial.It seems to be acceptible an buisness as useall in Florida i m o.
I believe Caylee was murdered as well
but I cant really argue much about it because I dont know much about the case
It sucks but frankly, I am powerless to do anything about it
I dont even know who disposed of her body even
Xena, quite frankly, anyone is qualified to mentor if that person wishes to take time with a young person. Mentoring does not require skills, only time. I do not know if GZ was a mentor or not, but that was not the point of my post. My point was that IF he were a mentor, his mentees might not have believed him, and as a result, might not have supported him.
Or likely minors who can’t and shouldn’t come forward.
I disagree with an “anyone.” I would not want to be mentored by, neither allow my child to be mentored by a practicing drug addict; alcoholic; ex-bouncer with an arrest record.
Mentoring requires experience(s) that can be passed on and applied by the mentee.
I understand the point you were making, but IMO, had GZ mentored children, he would have known how to verbally communicate with Trayvon — and he didn’t.
There is no evidence he mentored anyone. He even changed his mentoring story on the fly on Hannity and said to the effect when he was done mentoring he was on his way to Target.
If he did, there would be at least one where they or a parent came forward, not to mention on a witness list.
There you go, a mild mannered person would have identified themselves, not snarled and whipped themselves into an angry frenzy over a total stranger for just being in the area.
Organized mentor programs require a background check. So of course he wouldn’t pass muster.
Isnt it odd – the guy in Oliver twist that mentors kids to steal has the name — FAGIN. Pretty close, don’t you think!
LOLOL really close! they could be twins!
If THIS request works, I’ll come back more often. I stopped coming b/c of the rolsl in the gutter that seemed to be happening with greater frequency. Thanks for trying. Hope it works.
It is very possible that GZ might have mentored some kids, but his public service to them may not cause them to support him. Perhaps they did not come forward because they know he is not being forthright
GZ wasn’t tutoring. He is not qualified to tutor. Neither is he qualified to mentor. Mentoring conveys that a person is teaching others how to learn to perform something. It’s somewhat like coaching but in non-physical performance.
Had GZ been a “mentor,” he would have been personal and not approved by an organization. There’s no monitoring under “personal mentoring.”
@ Xena this is what I am talking about, it just seems odd that no one has come forward to say yes he was a mentor for this agency. His church or big brothers program or even the parents of the children no one has come forward. again I say, do they exsits or is it all a lie like everything else he say.
If and that’s a big if, he did mentor anybody, I don’t think any public or private entity for mentoring children would come out and say it publicly. They are minors and I do believe they would have to protect the children first and foremost. If O’mara thought for a split second that he could request at least a letter from the mentoring program stating that yes he did this and that on certain days and blah blah blah , he would of done so and posted it on his website. My thoughts on this mentoring business is this:
Shellie was babysitting for some extra dough on the side. In turn GZ translates this to MENTORING. Well all know he has a nasty knack in turning things into something more then it is. It sounds better then just saying babysitting.
@blushed-brown — your explanation of ‘mentoring’ makes more sense than anything i have seen so far. the official zimstory is that whatever agency they began this ‘mentoring’ project is no longer around (awfully convenient, eh?) but being the upstanding ‘muricans they are, they continued of their own free will. something about the whole story just smells like the day old special at ‘ye olde fish mongers’.
@fauxmccoy
Thank you.
I wasn’t aware of that little tidbit, not in business anymore, yeah right.
Maybe this is what Osterman meant when saying he advised GZ to keep his gun with him at all times to keep it away from reach of the children.
Good point, didn’t think of that.
There’s a sorority whose saying is;
“If you want to go fast, go alone.
If you want to go far, go with others.”
You thought of the babysitting. I thought of what Osterman said. Maybe someone else will remember something that connects it even more.
I hope so. I like connecting the dots.
I’m sure if there were kids at Fogen’s house on the Sunday before he went out and killed Trayvon Martin, the FBI would have interviewed them because they would be witnesses to anything that took place before he left home. He said on Hannity that he left home that day “after we mentored the kids.”
why would you believe that story after all of his other lies have come out? isn’t a little convenient that he just happened to leave his house, after mentoring 2 black kids, and accidentally spots, curses about, chases and kills another black kid.
there’s no evidence at all.
it’s just too unreasonable to believe.
Somebody said that they attended an affair or party with Fogen, or maybe it was his fake graduation party, and there were two Black teen-agers there, and they asked who they were (why? Is there anything peculiar about two Black teen-agers that would cause a question?) and they were told that these were Fogen’s mentees. More likely there were no two mysterious Black kids there but there were two manatees. Or somebody mistook two people (not saying who) for two manatees.
Anyway, here’s my other strange idea. “Mentoring kids” is a way to have kids around. Why parents are not coming forward to say, “He mentored my kid…”? If kids have protective, involved parents, how come they’re sending these kids to be “mentored” by Fogen? For what earthly reason would any parent come up with that? More likely, Fogen and Shellie provided some kind of incentive at their house for young kids withOUT parental resources to stop by or to come over and… and what? And give Fogen information on their buddies and friends so Fogen could monitor the community? And become unofficial “confidential informants” about what’s going on in town? Or something?
There was a Nobel prize winner who did incredible research on the kinds of diseases, such as “mad cow disease,” that result from some form of animal or human cannibalism. He brought some 200 young boys over from a very primitive island society where he went to study the disease. Later it turned out that he was molesting these boys, and it was confirmed, and so forth, no doubt about it. Many people thought that was just fine because he gave those boys opportunities they would never have had. Others found it exploitive; at any rate it was illegal.
Anyway, a similar story occurs in New York, this one unconfirmed, about a very famous person in the music (classical, not pop) industry. He had employees working for him who would, for extra money, go out and find him his “mentees” and he had specific qualities they were to seek.
It’s not anything we have evidence of. But we also don’t have independent evidence (other than Fogen’s word) that he mentored any real, live, non-imaginary children, ever, anywhere.
I have found the mentor story odd but perhaps it is a code word much like Peter Pan was for PayPal and $8 meant 8 Grand. I do not know what the code word is but I will say that he does have molestation allegations already and it was extremely odd that witnesses saw the defendant Fogenhats rubbing his hands all over a kid he just shot, and he was seen on top of him sitting on his back. Perhaps there is some truth to all these molestation tales and he was even molesting Trayvon. Another exception is it is just another lie that he tells for no reason because I do not see anyone who should be mentored by him as he is muy loco, considering he has quite a lengthy history of violence and crime and has been known to fly off the handle.
TM’s parents are taking the high road, so I sure can and will. Thanks for the advice.
They have shown nothing but grace and dignity. I look up to them. But I kind of want to do it for them (the name-calling, etc.), which is why I appreciate this advice.
a lil off topic, have there been any talk about the kids that GZ was mentoring? I haven’t read anywhere that they have come forward yet.
I was told it was because their parents (who have not come forward) said they felt it was best to keep the kids out of it.
Thanks Rachael, I still find that to be strange that not even a statement, I wondering do they really exists
Junior says their parents are both in prison.
Well Tee, I don’t believe they do personally. I think it is another story.
Nothing wrong with getting the parents statements then for their good, good friend.
@Tee, get real!!!!!!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOOL there’s NO way he mentored anyone!! what it the world would he mentor someone about?? he’s a life long scam artist, thief, a collage failure, a beggar a mooch and of course a killer. i mean really.
i dare anyone come out and say GZ mentored their kid!! NO WAY and NO one has said anything about their parents keeping them out of it…
i hope this will come into court somehow, and prove what a fantastical liar he is.
Oh dear. The gun shop owner said he ran a Sunday school in his house for ghetto kids, GZ surely told him so.
Fogen was always very vague about the kids he “mentored.” And finally his bro, Junior, said that Fogen mentored two kids whose parents were both in prison. Hmmmm. Mentored them on how to visit prisons? Anyway, lots of questions have been asked about the mentored kids but nobody’s giving up any specifics. You’d think instead of crying, Joe Oliver would go see those kids and get them to step up to the plate and defend their main man, wouldn’t you? Who knows, though, without Fogen’s influence on them maybe they have gone bad.
It’s just real suspicious.
Notice that this time Joe Oliver began to do his talking points, he basically said that if he didn’t know Fogen personally and know how wonderful he was, he would have thought it was a racist “shoot” but his own personal knowledge of Fogen’s wonderfulness is the reason he doesn’t? So that would mean that for all of us who do not know Fogen personally, what we assume is pretty much the logical conclusion that anybody would form. Right?
Now if Joe Oliver has an 18-year-old son and he was such a good friend of Fogen’s, how come his 18-year-old son, who was naturally also a good friend of Fogen’s, isn’t speaking up to help his dear father’s dear friend? I’da thunk…
Considering it is the Fogenhats, I will call it a lie until I see authentication and not a bought friend like Oliver
I am surprised Fogenhats has not tried to buy some kids into being on TV and lying for him just like Oliver
Wonderful people don’t use offensive language to describe people they do not know, like GZ did in the NeN call. That call was a needlessly vicious and angry attack of the stranger he saw do nothing more than take shelter from the rain.
While his anger is unexplained, his anger does explain why he missed the opportunity to end hostilities by identifying himself. A hate filled person is unlikely to be concerned with anyone’s safety at all.
Considering Fogenhats’ actions, I would say that is likely a false story, much like his black grandfather story
Thanks Regina an will keep you in mind an send healing positive thoughs …Have a relaxing Christmas an a restfull one if possable your body need lots of energy to recover an heal.An after surgery take it extra easy if possable .Rush to recover can make it longer .Even quick healers need rest after surgery…All the Best……….x
@Jun…….. just call him that what he is the DEFENDANT Or the ACUSSED…Jai accussie
I call him – the killer.
You know, I just looked back at a post that was up in July about Rabbi Hillel’s three questions. There I saw a comment put up by someone who has since been removed from this blog. At that time in July, he was lucid, intelligent, thoughtful and interesting. After that he seemed to go through some kind of giant melt-down; it was weird, looking at the comments across time and seeing some sort of “other persona” take over. I feel like I have lost a friend, now, although I perfectly understand the Professor’s rationale for banning him. Then I realized that the person who has left voluntarily (about whom Whonoze commented) was indeed Unitron with whom I tangled for a while, and now cannot remember the substance of our disagreement. And I wish Unitron was here to discuss it with me (if he/she remembers).
On another subject, since the big issue of blood on Fogen’s face has occupied so much Internet “air-time,” I would like to remind everyone who’s interested in this photograph (in either of its iterations) that there are two photographs of the back of Fogen’s head, and there are lots and LOTS of questions about those two. O’Mara doesn’t like those two photographs of the back of Fogen’s head; he keeps talking about Fogen’s nose.
Which reminds me of the old folk song from the Appalachian Mountains: Old Grogan’s goat.
Here, ladies and gentlemen, a new folk song from the Bloggraphie:
Old Fogan’s nose (old Fogan’s nose)
Was hurt and sore (was hurt and sore)
And he alleged (and he alleged)
He suffered more (he suffered more).
He said a guy (he said a guy)
up to no good (up to no good)
had punched his nose (had punched his nose)
hard as he could (hard as he could).
He said his head (he said his head)
was slammed and bashed (was slammed and bashed)
until it felt (until it felt)
like it was smashed (like it was smashed).
He cried three days (he cried three days)
and prayed to God (and prayed to God)
But the detective (the detective)
thought it odd (he thought it odd) —
That such a fight (that such a fight)
and mighty strife (and mighty strife)
led to three scratches (wait-a-minute now,
you mean scratches?)
and the other guy plum lost his…life
(so hold on now, uh…really?)
(could we take it again from “nose”?)
(and this time, make it rhyme.)
* * * O * * * K * * NOW:
Old Fogan’s nose (old Fogan’s nose)
Was hurt and sore (was hurt and sore)
And he alleged (and he alleged)
He suffered more (he suffered more).
He said a guy (he said a guy)
up to no good (up to no good)
had punched his nose (had punched his nose)
hard as he could (hard as he could).
He said his head (he said his head)
was slammed and bashed (was slammed and bashed)
until it felt (until it felt)
like it was smashed (like it was smashed).
He got his wife (he got his wife)
to give first-aid (to give first-aid)
And then his scars (and then his scars)
began to fade (began to fade).
And nine months later (nine months later)
What do we see? (What do we see?)
A color pix (a color pix)
clear as can be (clear as can be)
of Fogen’s nose (of Fogen’s nose)
that proves he’s right (that proves he’s right)
that he ain’t never (that he ain’t never)
started no fight (started…no…fiiiiiiiiiiight.)
Um…huh? (ummmmmmmm….huhhhhhhh…) ❓
LOL.
I did not ban unitron.
He did not respond well to my cross examination and left without answering a simple question that I asked him.
He can return anytime, but he has chosen to stay away.
FWIW, on bcclist unitron did not say or imply that s/he had been banned, but rather clearly stated that s/he departed the discussion at his/her own choice. I’d guess unitron might come back after more cooling off. I think s/he is too dedicated a contrarian to quit the discussion forever. AFAIK, unitron has NEVER supported GZ or any of his BS, but unitron busts everyone chops on bcclist, and he did the same on the Whonoze blog when I was maintaining it. I do not unitron as anything other than a fleeting cyber-persona, but I like having unitron around, quarrelsome though s/he may sometimes be.
The quarrelsome part I don’t mind. But it’s the refusal to consider ANY evidence before bashing people’s ideas. That bothered me. No matter whatever else gets discussed on this blog, the evidence is the cornerstone. Pictures, conversations and opinions are great but its the evidence that will put GZ in jail.
Sent from my iPod
I do lyrics too…..How about a play on “Truckin” by The Grateful Dead” in the key of “E”
Fogen…needs his chips cashed in
Taaffe is the do – dah man
Together, more or less in line, just keep stalkin’ on
Sanford has flashing marquees out on Main Street
Miami, Orlando and Tampa, it’s all the same street
Not your typical Captain involved in a typical daydream
Hang it up, and see what Osterman brings
SheLie, at the Cola Machine, Taffee, out to count his green
Fogen, has the way and means, he just can’t let it bee -eee
Most of the cats that you meet say “You need to be cool”
Most of the time he’s plotting and scheming at home
One of these days he says he just gonna do it
Out of the door and into his schruck he goes in the rain
Fogen, to the do – dah man
Once said he was gonna play his hand
Together, out the door they go
Good bye suspicious ma…….an.
Sometimes the lights all shining on me
Other times I can barely see
Lately it occurs to me
What a long, strange trip it’s been
Skatin’ don’t know where to go
Been thinkin’ but how would I know
Takes time, to pick a place to go
Just can’t face the ma…..an
What in the world every became of SheLie
She never had sparkle, and you know it’s a shame
Ruined her life, and she just got bust for lyin’
All a friend can say is “ain’t it a shame”
Fogen, to the do – dah man
Once said he was gonna play his hand
And oh now he is gonna go to jail
Just keep scheming on
Sittin’ and starin’ out of the hotel window
Got a tip I’m getting arrested again
I’d like to get some sleep before the hassle
But SheLie’s asleep in the way once again
Fogen, you ain’t goin’ home
Whoa whoa baby, Prisons where you belong
Get back, and try and rest them bones
Prisons where you be – long….ong
As an old Deadhead, I really appreciate this.
Well done.
Cue Jerry and the boys performing at the Hollywood Palladium on 9/10/1972
Good solo by Jerry.
Thanks……I’m not a true “DeadHead” but I loved Garcia and Weir.
Did a few of their songs in a few bands I was in.
Racer…OMG…..Singin’ along, listening to the band playing in my head. Great album too!!!
Pick a song and I’ll rewrite it if I can.
OMG wow!!!!
it’s catchy!
@Malisha
Your 2nd to last verse about scars fading remind me that any cut to the scalp leaves a permanent absence of hair where the cut was. Does GZ have such gaps?
Malisha,
The song that you posted here reminds me of a camp song I learned as a child called “sippin’ cider”. The first verse went something like:
“Oh the prettiest girl (oh the prettiest girl)
I ever saw (I ever saw)
Was sippin’ ci (was sippin’ ci)
-der through a straw (-der through a straw),
Oh the prettiest girl I ever saaaw
was sippin’ cider through a straw
Aw dee aw dee aw dee aw.”
Any idea whether that was the same tune as Old Grogan’s goat?
I believe so, gblock, but it wasn’t in my mom’s songbook so I can’t be sure.
I vaguely remember hearing it, though, and it seems to me that it was the same tune. That might be one of those folk song tunes (like Turkey in the Straw) that has many lives.
The comment about finding ShelLie an getting back with or whatever was written to Xena I dont know there status.However when he gave the interveiw to Hanraty he had already agreed to give an exclusive to Babra Walters.She an her film crew flew down to Florida.She met gz in a Hotel room.He assured her she had the interveiw .But as a courisy to Hanraty who had been suportive of him in the past on his show george was going to do his first interveiw with him an then film a second interveiw with her an A B C..An the only stipulation was they show there show after F O X airs the interveiue.She an her crew had travelled all the way to Florida so she had a word with her producer an they agreed.Couple of hours later gz strolls into her hotel room Osterman/security in tow dressed in jeans an t shirt.The smart suite was gone hyer first clue she thought this interveiws a bust.Then he agreed to do the interveiw only if A B C paid for two hotel rooms for he an his wife an expenses for I IR C two months?Now the reason I mentioned this is if I were liveing in a hotel with my wife for two nights or two weeks let alone two months.Id only or we would only aquire one room.Anyway B Walters told him wher to stuff it………
Two rooms? It must be because of his tonsil stones!
Really, he goes to the doctor’s PA for tonsil stones, but to an ENT to X-ray his nose? Oh no,too expensive! (never mind that an ENT could also fix the tonsil stones)
GZ asked Walters for one room for HIM AND SHELLIE for one month. It sounded to me as though ShelLIE might not have been with him and this was a make-up effort. Also, it sounds to me as though his “safehouse” is a motel room where he can check out and return to the establishment later.
Following and catching up (while feeling I will have to use legal terms such as “malicious” instead of 4 letter words. 🙂
I quite like that legal term, Xena.
Here are some others: malicious, egregious, heinous, scandalous, nefarious, atrocious, diabolical, fiendish, vile, odious, abhorrent, revolting, execrable, detestable, loathsome, offensive, reallyreallybadandimeanit, stinkypoo.
I began referring to the defense antics as “tawdry spectacle” yesterday
LOL! I’m saving this list!
Sent from my iPod
Thesaures are wonderful!
oh, you overlooked my personal favorite ‘unctuous’
@ colin black. Thank you. Happy holidays to all.
I applaud you Professor…I will stick with GZ. Does anyone know if/when Shellie goes to trial will it be a jury trial? Thanks in advance!
You said,
“I will stick with GZ.”
Funny, I didn’t know that he is a good adhesive.
Does he have to go through an exquisite reduction process?
Perhaps that could be the subject of a new motion.
LOL – the glue factory for Fogen. Or shall he be pixellated?
IMHO both Fogen and Shellie should go on an exquisite reduction process.
You will stick with George, you are not sticking with much! besides, how can you stick with someone who murdered a innocent unarmed kid in cold blood? BTW, you don’t have to bother answering my question because, I already know the answer. smh
By sticking with GZ, I meant that is how I will continue to address him. Anything else is repulsive…eewwwww. Does anyone know if Shellie will have a jury trial?
Is there any way for us to go on TV and confront Omara on all his lies with West?
I will also add that not talking down on them is going to be rather hard as I have zero respect for them.
I’d love to plan out and point out all of Omara’s lies in front of millions
This is way beyond what a defense lawyer should be doing as it is pure sleeze
Bad defense lawyers do not play by the rules and they lie. Just look at Jose Baez. It was Baez that told the whole world how George Anthony molested Casey. He destroyed the reputation of an innocent man and I hope he burns in hell. O’Mara is going down the same dark path that Baez did.
I dont know much about the Casey case but in a way, George could have simply objected to it and tell the court that it is not true and Baez has no proof or truth to such accusation
As for Casey, as much as anyone hates it, the state couldn’t put the smoking gun in her hand, and they were not all that confident in the case either, as if you saw their after trial actions, it does not speak of confidence, nor were they appalled
I agree that the kid was murdered but the fact was they could not pin it on Casey
She may be guilty as sin but they did not place the smoking gun in her hand
Although Baez has done things that are not ethical, he is not nearly as bad as Omara, because the lies are very blatant and he shows absolutely no respect for the victim and his family
I dont feel Baez would even do what Omara and co do
Dennis, “Bad defense lawyers do not play by the rules and they lie.” Let me point out that “Bad prosecution lawyers” do the same and now, come to think of it, “bad anykinda lawyers” do so too.
@Dennis, you are darn right about O’mara going down the same path as Jose Baez. is winning a case like this the only thing these attorneys think about? instead of getting to the TRUTH, they only want to win at any and all cost, no matter who gets hurt along the way or that, two young lives have been taken. in O’mara’s case, he is putting the child victim on trial while at the same time, he is doing his best to ruin Trayvon’s reputation. this is not right and, the justice system shouldn’t allow it. Trayvon was the victim in all of this, yet there are those in this country who are also smearing, slandering and spewing untruths about an innocent deceased kid who they never knew. their only knowledge about him is that he was black and that is enough for them to do the things they are now doing. GOD has got a way of bringing them all down and, in that I can take comfort.
Baez is actually going against Omara
and to be perfectly honest, an impartial jury, seeing how Omara has been acting in regards to his disregard for truth and a child victim is not going to bode well with a judge or jury
They would be disgusted
If I were the state, and Omara is acting like he is now on TV, I would personally press charges on him for false presentation of evidence (which is tampering with evidence I believe)
I would not doubt if the state uses all of Omara’s media breakdowns against him in court and trial
Who are they going to believe?
The sleezy defense lawyer Omara with West, badgering and harassing witnesses on the stand, repeatedly lying, getting nervous and throwing fits, attacking a dead kid in court, attacking the dead kid’s parents
or
The state and the victim’s family, who has done none of the above and have evidence to back up their claims and have not lied or tricked anyone at all
My guess is the jurors are going to be people with emotions and empathy like anyone else and I dont believe they will select callous people with disregard for even a kid onto the jury
I am guessing Omara may try and cheat during the jury selection but we will catch him
I’m sure you can handle it Jun.
Frederick, I have a question that you might be able to answer. if during the trial, the jury discovers or learns that the defense is lying about certain things, would they immediately favor the prosecution? I would have trouble accepting anything else the defense says if I was on the jury. Justice is about exposing the truth and punishing those that are guilty. If one side is not being truthful, I would have to favor the other side.
People are people.
LOL it is kind of second nature to call him Zimmernuts Fogenhats and other funny names
What should we call the defendant? I know we agreed not to use his name at all
I wrote this on the last post. Remember Tugboat told Serino – that doesn’t even sound like me. The father said he didn’t know the first time until he listened on headphones. Both of these comments are on tape. So, whether or not Serino and another police officer said that Tracy did not recognize the screams as belonging to his son is a red herring. I think he is right. I doubt he would have ever heard Trayvon scream in sheer terror. However, Tugboats father said he had heard Tugboat scream like that when he was younger. Scream in terror, why, I wonder.
@grahase – i remember papa zim stating that he had heard his son scream many times back in virginia. i initially made many jokes about it, looking back, i have to consider child abuse. it does not excuse any of gz’s actions of course, but to call this family dysfunctional is an understatement.
grahase: “However, Tugboats father said he had heard Tugboat scream like that when he was younger. Scream in terror, why, I wonder.”
According to Osterman, Chorge was beat by his mother and his father ignored it. So much for the perfect Zimmerman family described by RZ Jr.
Hmmm. So as a child, GZ cried for help for a long time, and his dad heard him but didn’t help?
@LLMPapa,
I think I might of found another freudian slip for you to take apart.
Hannity interview @ 3:45 after the shimmey remark @13:50
I would try and sit up and push myself down.
Faux pas again?
How does a person push themselves down when they are suppose to be on thier back.
Hmmmmmmmmm
He would try to sit up to push himself down off the concrete to the grass — which would end up like Trent Sawyer demonstrated in a video.
Which Trent video?
Oops. Didn’t it embed? Let’s try again.
Oh ok I understand. If he shimmied the way he described, Trayvon would have to do that also. Not to mention his groin would be in his face, if he didn’t. Hmmm, must of missed that video or forget about it.
I took gz statement on Hannity to mean, he was describing himself Pushing himself down on Trayvon, but didn’t realize he said it. Similar to other freudian slips. JMO.
Its 3am Im tired
I see what you’re saying but am taking a position of “agree quickly with thine adversary” who is GZ. If we agree with him, we see he lied about Trayvon seeing the gun. Also if we agree with him, we see that he lied about being pinned down. If his body was free to shimmy, he was not pinned down with Trayvon straddling him.
I’d like to see LLMPapa do a video of the excerpt from Hannity where GZ says “I also thought the police were going to come and see me with the firearm and shoot me. I mean, I was terrified.” It would tie in great with LLMPapa’s “How? Pt. 3”
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/07/18/exclusive-george-zimmerman-breaks-silence-hannity?page=6
Ah, I see.
Yes, I would like to see a video with a tie in from LLMPapa,
PUBLIC ACCESS TV. Perhaps we should get a spot together and do a presentation. How does one go about doing that?
Even though Robert Sr tried to lie he Freudian slipped
He said he heard screams like that back in Virginia, which was when the defendant was a teenager
I think any stretches of truth or outright lies will turn around and bite him in the butt. No one really needs to confront him except the prosecution in the courtroom.
Thats true. It would bring a certain joy to make him sweat even more on national TV though
*Montgomery Burns Excellent*
@Jun, Robbert Zimmerman Sr. is just as big of a LIAR as his off spring and, I would just love for someone to out his ass on HP as being the person known as, LetJusticePrevail. I would do it myself but, I don’t blog there anymore and, I will never apply for another account there either. I thought HP was better than what they really are but, I was wrong. every mean and hate filled comment that is made about Trayvon or his family, the moderators allow it to be posted. as for what those who supprot Trayvon and his family, the Zimmerman suppporters have their comments deleted when they don’t need to be. Nope, never again will I go back there and blog.
@ladystclaire: I know what you mean. I still post sometimes on HP, and someone else e-mailed me privately to confirm that LetJusticePrevail is RZ Jr. and I already knew that Newbee100 is GZ. Only those two, would have as much invested in defending and justifying the actions of GZ! They both post things that only the “killer” would know. I might “out” RZ soon, but I am having so much fun insulting him and GZ daily!!!
They are both to stupid and to know that they are being insulted! Newbee already has written me privately, and I have cussed him out several times. Something I cannot do on here but on there…..YES! GZ and his stupid brother all are overwhelmed by the constant barage of posts which provide evidence and none that can be retuted. LetJustice also has the nerve to confront me in private and he gets trashed too. I told him not to even think he can confront me in any way, shape of form because he will be put in his proverbial place because I am not afraid of any of them. I am to old to care and I repeat daily that GZ is a liar who will do hsi 30 years in prison for murdernig a boy who was begging and pleading for his life!! That fool had the nerve to ask me how did I know, that TM was pleading for his life? My response: You should know, you were there!
LJP is Sr……newbee is Fogen & Jr is mdmcruder805 / army02 for the record.
@racerodig:
GZ is absolutely a complete nutcase! I figured that Fogen was him as well.::SIGH:: What is wrong with those folks? I just posted to RZ Jr. who is once again defending that insane brother of his. You can figure out which ones are G’s and RZ’s because RZ’s writing skills are a little better than G’s but the racist drivel is still the same.
I still think we need to make a mass assault on them on HP one day all at the same time and call them out by name.
@racerodigL
I just re-read what you posted. LJP is the dad? is that the best he can do? I have called him every name in the book BTW! No wonder he gets so angry and I just laugh away! LOL! Which one is the mom? Maybe they have recruited the entire family?? What a bunch of idiots!
it appears she is gone, no stomach for being called out. She used several names back in June / July / Aug, all of which at face value were black woman’s names.
@racer
“LJP is Sr……newbee is Fogen & Jr is mdmcruder805 / army02 for the record.”
– – – – – – – – –
do you know this for a fact? i know i found them to be insufferable, but am interested in facts.
Several things. They have made hundreds of comments in 1st person that no one else would do. LJP writes just like Sr speaks as does newbee. They have all been baited into a conversation by experts then the trap was sprung and the hate erupted. Of course having a connection in the field who confirmed this with IP addresses helped……after we guessed correctly of course. I see one of my friends was there earlier and flat out told them the farce is over……bout time. I say we all do it.
hmmmm …. i am generally up for a rumble. hey, do you remember when mdmcruder used to flirt with some muscle-bound ex cop in LA? what do you suppose that was all about?
Back in the late summer. I have no idea what that was about. Remember badwolf62 badwold63 The Punisher…..all Jr.
it was punisher that mdmcruder flirted with. badwolf would surprise me, he started off alright, insisting on an arrest, but then would completely lose it sometimes on racist rants etc.
badwolf62 & badwolf 63 were different than the 1st badwolf.
that makes a bit more sense then, about badwolf
My take on the 1st badwolf was he is a racist of Biblical Proportions and was trying to “look” neutral. His rants gave him away.
IF YOU DON’T MIND, WILL YOU TELL ME SOME OF THE THINGS THAT THEY ARE DISCUSSING THAT ONLY THE KILLER WOULD KNOW. THIS IS THE VERY FIRST FAMILY, WHO HAS TAKEN TO THE INTERNET AND POSTED ON BLOG SITES, TRYING TO PERSUADE THE PUBLIC THAT THEIR FAMILY MEMBER IS INNOCENT OF HIS CRIME. THIS ZIMMERMAN FAMILY HAS NO MORALS WHAT SO EVER. THEY SHOULD ALL BE CONVICTED OF OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE AND, THAT GOES ESPECIALLY FOR THE SENIOR MEMBER OF THE FAMILY.
With the exception of the incredibly stupid shell-game deception that the defendant and his wife perpetrated on the Court at the first bond hearing to conceal his assets and his extra passport, I do not believe there is sufficient evidence to charge any member of his family with a crime.
One possible exception is the sister who assisted in carrying out the scheme by permitting her bank account to serve as a temporary parking place for some of his funds.
I am not saying that crimes have not been committed. I am saying that I am not aware of any evidence that they were.
The efforts by Papa Z, Mama Z and Robert Jr., to demonize Trayvon, all of his supporters and the prosecution while endorsing the defendant’s provably false statements and justifying what he did are extremely offensive.
However, they reveal much about who they are and what they believe. They are racist right wing wackos and the apple did not fall far from the tree.
With each passing day and each public appearance they make, they only succeed in exposing the vile nastiness that consumes them.
Pity.
@ladystclaire:
How are you? They say the same drivel every single day. They constantly make offensive comments about TM, blame him for his death, ask why didn’t he contact the police on his cell phone if he was being followed, and they bring up his school suspension, why he wouldn’t have been an airplane pilot and that he had a juvie record (which he doesn’t). Just mindless garbage but I get back at them. I take a different approach with Daddy Z and Robert Z. I ask them why they do not discuss the evidence from The Discovery? The lack of DNA or blood on TM’s hands? Also, since I am a Nurse, I constantly pepper them with questions on why Fogen refused to go to the hospital despite such “alleged devastating head injuries from his alleged brutal beating?” Why he wouldn’t adhere to his own PA’s advice and see an ENT? If he had his nose allegedly broken wouldn’t he want to see a Specialist? Why didn’t he agree to do that? Why wouldn’t he want a CT. Scan or an MRI to see what devastating head injuries he sustained? If his head felt numb, and his nose was bleeding profusely, why didn’t he go to the hospital?? Then I post tru life examples of individuals who had sustained head injuries who died or ended up in coma’s or who suffered brain damage, They know that I know I stuff and so they cannot fool me with the allegations of Fogen getting his head bashed in.
Then I always leave each post with the dialogue from the 911 phone call, and I ask them why they never discuss that phone call or its contents? Of course, I never receive an answer so that is how I deal with them. I tell them that they have no answer because it is what it is and it is going to also assist in convicting Fogen. They become so angry LOL! Then they have the nerve to write me privately which I never read and I have already informed these two sub humans not to write to me but to keep it on the public board! The entire family are disgusting, right wing racists!
I do the same thing. They refuse to even travel down the evidence says road…..No. it’s if Trayvon had just, or if he was a good boy and not been suspended….blah, blah, blah. It’s very easy to rattle all of them.
I know what you mean. I still post sometimes on HP, and someone else e-mailed me privately to confirm that LetJusticePrevail is RZ Jr. and I already knew that Newbee100 is GZ.
———
Are you serious? I have gone round and round with Newbee and the other one before, and never realized that I was speaking with the defendant and his brother. UGH, that actually makes me sick!
X 2 and very strongly I might add.
If you haven’t seen it, please look at my response to Tzar upthread.
If this regards the photo, I think it does not matter whether or not the photo was altered. The vital signs at the scene were more calm than mine are as I type this, the photo in the sally port was absolutely one of an uninjured person in no distress at all, and even if the photo with blood is 100% real and legit, it indicates, on a good day, something akin to a mild dust-up one might have in a weekday get-together of old man’s basketball.
BTW, I really find that many of the supporters of this man and in particular his actions with his gun- I find these people to be pussies. Honest to God. I once had a 22-stitches soccer kick to the head that made this bullshit look like a shaving cut, and I never screamed, cried, hollered, stomped my feet, jumped up and down, sued people or pulled a gun on anybody.
It doesn’t matter to the Zimmerman trial at all. It matters to a Federal investigation into police corruption. I want Wolfinger to go down as much as I want GZ to get foged.
Good point, I can see that now. I agree. Official misconduct in this country in general is out of control, and there has got to be more accountability.
C-S: “If this regards the photo, I think it does not matter whether or not the photo was altered.”
It kind of matters to me that the photo is altered in that someone is corrupt and trying to mislead the extent of injuries in order to justify the murder of Trayvon Martin.
Yes, I see this side of it now. I meant it to be regarding the extent of injuries presented at trial. Which kind of brings up another point: If tampering is discovered in the photos, it seems to me that the photos would be rendered useless for trial purposes.
Fred will need to answer this, but unfortunately he is ill this morning (and was all last night). He was hoping to be well by morning and able to return to the blog, but at the moment he is pretty sick.
Sorry to hear about the Professor’s illness. Flu is already going around in our area. Hope he feels better soon.
Thank you.
Fabulous and well made point, Crane. I don’t know anybody in their right mind who would expect people to believe they couldn’t do anything but squeak out “Helpme, Helpme” while a kid sat on them and punched their face and slammed their head. Jeez. When I was in grade school three guys jumped me in an alleyway and I got out of it in about 2 minutes with less fussing than Fogen. AND I was embarrassed that I was bruised up, not proud of it!
Exactly. Most people have had worse than GZ – even been assualted in worse ways and projected none of this narcissistic baloney.
Mary Davis…Sit back an take a break you should pop in now an again dont need to comment.Just maybe have a wee read .Christmas is nearly on us so perfect timeing to have a seista an get all thoughts of this odious man out our systems ..But remember its Trayvon an especialy his Mother Father Brother nearly Step Brother all his loved one an freinds.This will be there first Festive Season without him .After new years beleive me it wont be long untill June is hers an the defendant faces Justice please join us whenever you feel comfortable .An have a wobderfull Christmas to you an yours.
Yes colin black, we probably all do need a break, and I have to have some surgery,yuck, so I will be taking a break, for that.You are right, our thoughts should be with the family of Trayvon, they will have a hard time during the holidays. And yes after the new year, June is right around the corner. I can’t wait for the trial to start. Great comment.Happy Holidays to all.
Here’s hoping and best and sending good thoughts your way regarding your surgery.
I respect what you say about the high Professor, and am in agreement. It is a challenge, that I can take. I post on HP and I am japanese girlsan. It is tough on that blog, but I will do my best. Back in may I said something similar, and a lot of Trayvon’s supporter’s agreed, but it did not last long in the other camp. A lot of good posters left, and I felt like it was my fault. Some have come back, but there are some that were wonderful still missing. I hope that they come back. I get all of your posts on my g mail account. I am impressed. Thank you to you Marinade Dave and LLMPapa.
I meant to say the high road oops! :”_)
Nice meeting up with you here 🙂
jg….I thought I recognized you. I can’t even go on HP anymore. It appears to be the All Z…all the Time Show.
Hey Girlsan
Good to see you here
The huffingtontreehouse is ……….well, a toxic waste pit, and AOL bears responsibility for that. It’s also a proud corporate sponsor of this years GOPTP Conference http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/cpac-set-host-white-nationalist-leader
That tells me all I need to know about AOL’s corporate mindset
It’s in hot competition with redstate, freerepublic,fox and other rw sites for consumers (eyes)….I’ve pretty well abandoned huff-poop and it’s flat earth illiterati’s musings
japanese girlsan – it is a pleasure to find you here. i assume you have noticed my absence on the TM threads at HP, but have missed you and your commentary. welcome aboard, i am sure that you will find this to be a far more fulfilling outlet as i have.
X – 2
x3 …I posted there for a while too. Melissa is my name. I remember you, girlsan, and you too, racer!
Good to be here {- ;
It’s definitely nice to see you two here. I got tired of all the hoopla over at Huffpost. It’s so much nicer here.
glad you are here now, melissa – welcome!
Thanks, fauxmccoy!
Hi Japanese girlsan. Nice to see you here. There has been a migration of many good folks from HP. I mostly post articles and leave. I can’t take the foolishness.
Regina….I’ve seen your posts on HP and wondered how you managed to keep going! Many of the Zimbots are hard core racists, and I suspect that quite a few are George (himself), his family and friends and their sock puppets. They kept deleting most of my comments. I am “luv my cats” over there.
Regina/japanese girlsan…You always put up quite a good fight over there too!..lol Glad to see you here!
It is great seeing so many HuffPo people here. I don’t post often there anymore, but I still check the site.
Hi J girl! You’re zinging them over at HP!
Why waste energy humiliateing the defendant or makeing him look like a stupid liar whom trivialises his actions smirks dureing an interveiwe with Hannaity when S Y G Mentioned?ITs futile realy as no one does it better than the suspect/defendant himself..All his deluded talk of the masses an attempts to flog his autograph .You coulldnt make that stuff up.Like wise the demented raveings of his minorty support wich is dwinddling as I type.His own demented attorney is also doing him more harm than good.Firstly by not muzzleing him an his family .Secondly the gobblddiegook he is spouting totally unfounded statements an rumours dissproven evidence stated as if kosher.An he knows its false .At this point he no more than a car sales man trying to sell the biggest jallopy in history…..An therein lies his problem…With a car you can turn back the odemeter to show less miles.You cant turn back time to errease your own clients actions an words to explain said actions.
SPOT ON!
Being in the car field, you can never turn back the miles. You can only make the illusion that such is true. The evidence is in the wear & tear…..The point is, if you look, the mileage is apparent if one knows how to look.
O’ Mara……..are you reading this ??
Good analogy!
Thank you, I deal with it every day…….cars and liars that is.
omar IS reading this!!
FOR SURE! there’s no better out there and it FAMOUS! Ya know, he got the idea from Biaz. And he’s so determined to “use social media” it would be stupid of him NOT to read this one! he’s been reading all along.
There are times when I think things will die down until trial. Then, BAM. Junior says something to rile people. Then, BAM, the defence comes out with more to stir things up and yet another website. Sometimes, I think to myself — this can not really be happening. I will wake up and find out that all of this is some freaky new form of reality show using MSM and Social media. I then realize – I am awake and am witness to most disgusting form of trying a case in the court of public opinion. The defence team and witnesses should have been gagged. I believe then and more so now, the prosecution should have been aggressive enough to show the judge it was necessary. Judge Nelson, opened Pandora’s box.
Exactly, just when we think it can’t get any more bizarre…….
@ everyone. This will be my last post. Not because of anything that anyone has said, but because I am getting a little too obsessed with this case. I will, however, continue to donate because what you guys are doing for Treyvon and his family are awesome. Please keep up the good work. I just know justice will prevail for Treyvon. Thank you Professor and everyone.
Oh I will miss your comments. I understand what you are saying, though — don’t I!? 💡
Be well.
Very sorry to see that this is your last post, but understand the need to take a step back from this for any reason, stated or not. You are welcome any time, to return and comment. We respect your decision, Mary, and thank you for the comment.
X2
Professor,
Thank you for this.
Sorry first half above was written by Xena…
Prediction 1. GZ will flee with or without the ankle bracelet. His first mission will be to find ShelLIE and talk her into getting back with him. The police will be called. They will take GZ into custody. He will be denied bond. Being in jail, he doesn’t have to worry about his living expenses. In the alternative ….
Prediction 2. GZ will hold on after Judge Nelson denies his motion. When its time to go to court on the immunity hearing, he will overdose just enough to make himself sick and be taken to the hospital
.If he has the were with all to attempt to flee..A destination an moneys to support his escape an relocation to a safe haven wich I doubt.But if the panic sets in an he does indeed go on the run..This is how I think he d stage it..He is driveing along with another?He is in his full kit bullet proof vest ect.All of a suden a white van swerves infront of them at an intersection .That just happened to be empty of any witnesses or cctv cameras.3 Masked males exeted the back of th shtruck guns drawn .An dragged poor georgie away screaming for help help…An then they flung him inside the van .Shut the back doors I could still hear him screaming for help an then bang no moore screaming an the van sped of..Erm no I didnt get a licance plate number?Coulor of the van..Mmm White..Colour of the kidnappers .?..Mmm they looked Black…They took george slamed one of those locking steering boots on the stearing wheel hand cuffed me to it.Plus took my cell phone an the ingition keys.
Just like in the movies !!
All movies with Fogen is not likely a well made production
He’s gonna run, a citizen will recognize his face as the guy who stalked and killed a kid
and then Fogen will be tackled by ATF LMAO
“find ShelLIE and talk her into getting back with him.”
?????????? What did I miss.
I heard this rumor here – but I didn’t even know it was a substantiated rumor.
Did I miss something?
It’s not verified. Some here were of that impression before I discovered the docket entry in her case. She was mailed a notice to appear that was returned unclaimed. The “unclaimed” signifies it was sent by Certified Mail and would need to be signed for. With security at the safehouse, and if Shellie was still there, logic says that someone should have signed for it.
Not to mention there are 3 attempts. Hmmmmmm
Yes, that is the rumor I am aware of, but again, I haven’t heard it anywhre but here. Did she or her attorney show up? Maybe there is some “security” reason (wink wink) no one is signing for her mail. Or maybe she did just get tired of it all and flew the coop. IDK.
@Xena I saw the docket entry too, and wonder why (if she is represented by this woman attorney) it would be necessary to send her a notice to appear by certified mail. I did not see any court appearance she has made since the arrest but I may be wrong, it has become very difficult to read anything regarding fogen et al.. Sounds strange to me. I hold your opinions on this case as extremely close to what I “feel” is the truth, most appreciated.
You said:
“GZ will flee with or without the ankle bracelet. His first mission will be to find ShelLIE and talk her into getting back with him.”
Is Shellie living with him right? If I were Shellie I would have to consider the frightening reality that her husband is a child molestor/murderer. I would take whatever deal I could arrange with the prosecution. Her husband is facing a potential life sentence which means she should start thinking about herself and her future without him. I don’t believe she will though. Most family members or wifes/husbands will always support each other no matter what the evidence says. I can’t even count how many times I have heard a family member say that their child is innocent when they are 100% guilty.
It may be significant that Shellie wasn’t at the killer’s most recent court appearance. Maybe she has decided to cut her losses or maybe her lawyer told her “Stay away from that loser at least until your case is settled.”
My guess has two parts.
Part I, IF Shellie has left Fogen: The story the family AND Shellie will promulgate is that Fogen insisted upon her leaving the home he is in, because he was so afraid of Black murderers that he wanted the risk to be less where Shellie went and she could not respond to court process because they feared that someone working in the courthouse would divulge Shellie’s whereabouts and get her killed. ALSO if Shellie was endangered in her new abode, someone could kidnap her and make the demand that Fogen himself come exchange himself for her as a hostage and he would have to choose between safety and exposing his beloved to danger and he would…etc. as per TV movie.
Part II, IF Shellie has not left Fogen: They want to lie low until Fogen gets his ankle bracelet off and then flee, and one of Joe Oliver’s friends or Frank Taaffe’s friends has a website or another method of gathering cash which will be used for the escape attempt. So Shellie is not appearing at all in public now and not giving any indication of her whereabouts, even for court. Judging by Fogen’s behavior before he was arrested the first time, they’re making a plan that isn’t very smart and that relies upon everyone acting as THEY expect, but they’re not telling Shellie’s lawyer about it.
My peeve has been the much-ballyhooed anticipation of sexual activity in prison. Glad to hear it won’t take up thread space henceforth.
But please, can’t we make jokes? Or word play? Is extreme sarcasm out?
I vote keep
References to “Bubba”
Jokes
Word Play &
Sarcasm
You said,
I agree. Rape is not very funny even when it is happening to someone you think deserves it. I think prisons are a nightmare for whoever is convicted. They do not serve the purpose of rehabilitation. It would be more humane to give Fogen a firing-squad than to stick him in prison for the rest of his life. I can almost guarantee they will keep Fogen in solitary since he killed a black teenager and also the fact that he is also an accused child molestor. Solitary confinement for 23 hours a day is very inhumane.
but i like saying fucking!!! It’s funny and there’s so many uses. Plus, for those of us who aren’t great writers ( and maybe a little light on vocabulary) it’s a extra adjective!
🙂
c’mon, at least for special occasions. maybe on casual Fridays?
Dennis, No one deserves to be raped.
Agreed…prison rape is no laughing matter.
Good to see your fonts again, princss6.
Haven’y seen you since Jesus left.
hey friend 🙂
This can be a challenge, but worth taking to heart.
Professor: “Yes, I am dismayed by the reprehensible disregard for the truth and below-the-belt tactics that the defendant, his defense team, and their supporters use on a daily basis to misrepresent the evidence, promote the defendant’s false narrative, and demonize Trayvon, his parents, Benjamin Crump, Natalie Jackson, Dee Dee and anyone who supports justice for Trayvon…… We should never demonize or taunt anyone and that includes the pathetic defendant.”
I am sorry if I have spoken badly about the turn of events in this case defense attorney’s and brother’s media blitz and the selling of autographs to raise money for Zimmerman’s living expenses and if I have offended some I apologize, but it is truth as I see it.
Some people in the Zimmerman camp are greedy, some seek fame, some are evil, some a combination of all of the above. This is just my opinion. II guess I will need to refrain from commenting because I really have nothing good to say about the characters involved on the defense side including Chorge, his family and attorneys and am disillusioned by the way this whole case has become an ugly media circus beyond belief.
After watching a day of BS on TV by the defense team, it was good to vent and see if others perceived comments as offensive and unethical as I did. If you prefer no one comments about the character of the people involved in the case I will be happy just to read the blog rather than comment. I defer to your decisions and judgement as well as posters who have been here long before I happened on this blog.
I was not even thinking about you when I wrote the article.
Please do not misunderstand, Fogen and his supporters deserve harsh criticism.
I am just asking people not to swear at or demonize them.
Hold them accountable?
Yes indeed.
Professor “I am just asking people not to swear at or demonize them,:
It is very easy not to swear at them, it isn’t in my nature. Having said that, I do believe there are “demons” of greed, fame, fortune and recognition at any cost who affect people’s behavior and I believe we are witnessing that in the behavior of the people on Chorge’s team, and not limited to Chorge.
This is just my humble opinion after watching the latest events including the media blitz and begging for money (from racists and misfits) via selling the autographs of a remorseless killer endorsed by the attorneys and the family.
Not to demonize, but Team Chorge appear to be without a soul or a heart and are willing to do anything to win. Not sure if that is within the realm of what is in a defense attorney’s job description or how far family loyalty should extend.
jm – I think he was talking about me with regard to a previous post. I apologize and I know I get carried away sometimes. I will try not to let it get the better of me in the future, and even if it does, I won’t write it here. Thanks for the reminder, and again, I’m sorry.
JM, please, don’t stop commenting. Professor, I don’t know how to “not demonize” Fogen. I think to “not demonize” him I’d essentially have to “Undemonize” him. And whereas I might actually LIKE TO (I can imagine the exorcism right now and I’m getting all excited — have to take a cold shower!) I can’t do that.
😳
Exorcism! Yes! Abbie Hoffman tried it on the Pentagon (or did he try to levitate the Pentagon, I foge-et). It didn’t work, of course, but it’s the effort that counts.
Reasonable human beings see this photo and know it’s photo shopped. A lengthy diatribe about how you have dissected this extremely bad photo editing became hard for me to read after the first line of your post.
hear hear
For centuries, reasonable people looked at the sky and KNEW, beyond doubt, that the Sun and Moon revolved around the Earth. Then Galileo made a close examination of the physical evidence and published a book confirming the Copernican theory of heliocentrism. For this, he was hauled before the Inquisition, forced to recant his views to escape death, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest.
Well at least Galileo didn’t leave home one day and get killed by an overzealous Church Protector!
well to be fair those people were not looking for themselves
they were being taught and co-opted into one paradigm
sdunn, I consider myself to be a reasonable human being but I don’t “know” for a fact that it was photoshopped. I don’t know how to explain the discrepancy between what we see there and what we see at the station, but I do not KNOW that it was photoshopped.
It is one thing to say you really feel like it was, something entirely different to say you know that it was.
I have a hard time understanding how his nose could go from that to what was at the station, especially with no ice (and no application of ice was mentioned) and I feel like it very well was photoshopped, but I do not know for a fact that it was.
I feel most people “know” which in my estimation and with no disrespect to your post could mean i.e. “in their hearts”, “in their bones” etc. I “believe” it is photo shopped could we agree with that word?
An accurate statement of the issue is whether the photograph of Fogen’s face while he is sitting in the police cruiser accurately displays what he looked like when the photo was taken.
The answer to that question is “No,” and we know that because we have the photos taken a few hours later at the station house with which to compare it.
Whonoze, gbrsbg (or something like that) and some others who know something about the subject, have explained that there are inherent limitations or problems using jpeg photos taken with phones that cause distortions, especially around the edges.
The important point is that the actual cause of the distortion is not very important to this case.
We also have the argument that even if that photo were accurate, it still does not establish that Fogen was reasonably in imminent fear of death or serious bodily injury because he has admitted that he had control of Trayvon in a wrist lock with the police arrival imminent when he pulled out his gun, extended his arm, aimed, and fired.
Those are Fogen’s own words and that is not self-defense.
I don’t know whether it was photoshopped or not but I’d consider a possible explanation for the differences between the cell phone photo and the SPD photo.
There is an area on the left side of his nose that is reddish with a tiny cut near the top. His gun has enough recoil that if he fired it with one hand and a bent elbow, would it have hit him on the side of the nose? Could it be from the spent shell? I’m more inclined to think it’s the recoil in order to produce the swelling. Perhaps the swelling went down so quickly b/c his nose wasn’t broken and the kind of injury that the recoil would do might not need much time to recover.
I should read my posts for comprehension before I post.
It’s the left side of his nose as you look at the picture.
Then study this and try to account for the distortions: http://tinyurl.com/co9ouag
This kind of thing cannot be achieved without manipulation.
Lonnie, I agree with you 100% – even more. If I had access to the equipment I had in my former profession as a Graphic Artist, I could replicate the photo because there was not much to do to it for a professional. Unfortunately, I do not even own the Photoshop program – just a tiny laptop. Whether or not we ever find out the truth about its humble beginnings is yet to be seen. The EMTs would include in their report the icing of the nose or at least a recommendation for doing so. My opinion, FWIW, this photo does nothing to prove injury. The killers brother even said in one of his interviews that GZ told him he was bleeding from the ears. I see none of that to have been true either.
A single unnatural artifact, like facial proportions changed, that should not be changed, disqualifies the picture as evidence, but not as evidence that someone else has committed a crime.
The prime suspect is the person who had possession of the photo and did not turn it in. Unless he can absolve himself, by providing another credible suspect, he’s going down for it all.
Look at the difference in the shape of the mouth from one photo to the other! IMO, this shows more manipulation than the nose!!
grahase says:
December 9, 2012 at 5:40 am
Look at the difference in the shape of the mouth from one photo to the other! IMO, this shows more manipulation than the nose!!
——-
You’re right, grahase. It looks like whomever did the crappy photoshop job tried also to give GZ a fat lip to go with his broken nose. I also wanted to note, I never saw black eyes to go with that, only dark circles, most likely caused by lack of sleep.
Now, now. GZ was just puckering up to throw a kiss to Osterman. 🙂
ROFLLLLLLL!
gz’s dark circles are hereditary. you can see them even in pictures of him as a boy and they get worse with age. as a studying makeup artist, it is just something i notice and it just occurs with some skin tones.
Boy, people don’t know f-all about optics, digital photography and photo-editing.
In my previous post on the bloody nose pic, I forgot to comment about the fact that GZ’s face looks thinner, or “out of proportion.” That’s most likely the result of someone making an error in downsizing or cropping the original to generate the image that has been distributed – a mistake that alters the aspect ratio of the photo, squeezing it from side to side. (This is what we call “anamorphic” in the digital media biz.) If someone was trying to cook the photo, they would not do this intentionally, in part because they would be trying to make the picture look authentic, not weird.
As for the differences between the look of GZ’s wounds between the bloody nose pic and the photos from the station: the bloody nose photo was obviously taken in Smith’s cruiser before the paramedics came to clean GZ up.
The most telling thing in comparing the photo at the scene to the photo at the station is that the swelling on the nose has completely disappeared. I’m not a medical doctor, but I’d guess that would happen if the swelling was caused by a blow to the side of the schnoz, and then iced down. I’d also guess that the swelling would not have receeded had GZ’s nose indeed been broken. So, to me, the bloody nose photo is just more physical evidence that GZ’s tale is full of lies, lies, lies.
Here’s an attempt to put the bloody nose pic back closer to the correct aspect ratio (it’s a guess: there’s no way to tell exactly how much it was screwed-up, and exactly what percentage to expand the x-axis to fix it).
This matches the pic from the station more closely in terms of the shape of his face. You’ll notice in the bloody-nose pick GZ’s head seems unusually wide at the top and narrows down by his chin. That’s because the cell phone cam has a wide angle lens, and was held at a high angle, making his forehead much closer to the camera than his chin in terms of the focus distance, thus appearing much larger. The PD station pics were taken with a longer lens at eye level, thus the facial proportions are not “distorted”.
The photo is still a little distorted, but also still looks foggy about that swollen zit thing on the side of his nose as if it’s been played with digitally. Even if iced, I don’t think it would recede hugely in a few hours, so by the looks of the smeary spot there and the fact that it’s not there at all four hours later, I still think someone wanted to exxagerate the injury. And I could certainly be wrong. I betcha the person who did this wishes they hadn’t now . . .
I mean distorted now in the opposite way – a bit too wide.
OH, I meant to say thanks for doing this. I meant to play with this myself and now I don’t have to! I can see where it goes!
then photoshop or not, I can’t see any “black eyes”
whonoze – it is not just the ratio that is wrong – there is NO blood coming out of his nostrils at the sides – clearly. The bop on the nose was, as per killers story, the first thing that happened. Not only would there be blood on BOTH inside nostrils. There would not be a big drip at the tip of his nose coming from apparently nowhere. A bleeding nose has a tendency to follow gravity into the mouth. Once again, he does NOT have blood along his lip line. Just two little swipes down the middle – not even a swipe to them. So, the proportions may be wrong. But, there is much more to the photo that appears to be faked.
ps – Your expertise is already well-known because you remind us at almost every post. If your mentioning it means that your opinion is more valid than others, you are mistaken. Your opinion is just that – same as everyone else. None of us here has proof of the opinions expressed.
That nose would have swollen more, even after an initial icepack. The only way to keep the swelling down is to put ice on it 20 mins on, 20 mins off for the first 24 hours or so. I don’t see this happening.
I don’t know whonoze, is there nothing else in the pic that can be used to confirm aspect ratios?
and even with ice; to have complete disappearance of the swelling, just five hours later seems unlikely to me
Lastly my friend
even with your adjustments the width of the bridge of the nose when compared to that in the SPD pics still looks disproportionately small compared to their respective space between the epicanthic folds and the eyes.
Tzar, in the reenactment the next day, he had barely a trace of black eyes, and in the video entering SPD on the 3rd day after the shooting, the one in which we see Osterman for the first time, there’s none. If he had even the slightest of broken noses, he’d have more bruising than that. The broken nose claims are way off-base. Definitely he got clobbered, but the need to exaggerate by the defense is fishy.
“The broken nose claims are way off-base.” And that’s the only thing undisputed about his alleged broken nose. Do you hear that Mr. O’ Mara !!
I noticed the bridge of the nose thing before I put the picture up, but I figured it was a trick of the angle or something. But I’ve just looked at it again… and, damn, it does look fishy. I was going to say that anyone with the Photoshop skills to fake that swelling wouldn’t be stupid enough to mess up the aspect ratio, but the squeeze kind of hides the weird line of the left side of the nose (GZ’s right side).
I had looked at the pic before blown up to the point where I could see the individual pixels, and nothing had jumped out at me. But looking again at that curve of the nose on the left, I do see some pixel details that look like artifacts of editing. That doesn’t mean they are, given the resolution we’re working with, and the way JPEG compression works., But the fish is beginning to stink a little.
So I hereby change my opinion. The pic may well indeed be ‘Photoshopped.’ If so, it’s not a hack job, and would have taken hours and hours of work.
What no one has yet come out and stated is that if this picture was edited that implies a level of conspiracy within the SPD that few of us have imagined. It means that Wagner didn’t “forget” about the picture on his phone, but that he had taken it to some friendly computer graphics geek to cook up an image that would support GZs story.
I apologize if I came off as a forensic Photoshop expert, which I’m not. People who know the field better than I do could render a better opinion. That is to say, they may be able to be conclusive where I am now not sure. However, I stand by my earlier statement that people (and it’s not just here) don’t know f-all about this stuff. In all the comments about the “Photoshopping” there was not one bit of evidence offered — Photoshop-wise. Just supposedly self-evident broad level comparisons that aren’t at all self-evident.
If, say, five top experts in photo editing were to look at this image file and all agreed, “Yes, this has definitely been edited.” Then we have a MAJOR scandal at hand. Remember, this is the same photo that appeared in the awful hi-con B+W rendition in the discovery. IF THIS WAS EDITED, THE DEFENSE TEAM DID NOT DO IT! It had to have been someone in the SPD or the SAO.
Oh, My, Foge-ing, God!
I will work on a pic of that area blown up, illustrating the specific points that could be telltale signs of editing. It will take time, and I have to try to get some actual work done today, but I will follow up.
You said,
Whonoze,
I have imagined and written about such a conspiracy, recommending that Wagner, Serino, Lee, Wolfinger and the rest of the SPD brass need to lawyer-up.
Serino retained Jose Baez.
I’m not saying he reads this blog and followed my advice because I have never spoken to him or corresponded with him. I don’t know why he did it, but it was the right thing for him to do. I’m willing to give him all the credit for the decision.
I don’t know about anyone else.
Hahahaha… I’m no expert but I photoshop pictures all the time on my blog, the preatorian blog not the evidence pile. I have Photoshop 5 and I’ve worked with CS3. You don’t need to be an expert to know that picture is edited/altered, just not with adobe photoshop, because that program leaves a header. Wait, I was looking at the combined work, but nah, Adobe headers don’t go away. If either picture was edited using photoshop the adobe header would still be there, instead there’s a microsoft lead-in. Of course to see that you’ll have to open the picture in a hex editor capable reader.
Trust me, you’re not going to find an expert on the planet who won’t say that photo is edited. The picture resembles no person on this earth, because no person on earth looks like that, because of the impossible distortions.
Simplify matters and stick to examining the red swath. You’ll note that it is the same feature as the one in the left hand photo, and therefore it should be in the exact same proportion to the surrounding features in the right hand photo, it isn’t. It’s been stretched.
@whonoze
The question is why doctored these photos. I can see only two answers:
a) Police
b) Defense team
I rule out the defense team because the manipulation, assuming that it occurred, would have happened before the B/W copy was produced on a copy machine and released to the defense and the public in the first document dump.
C) All of the above
whonoze says
not sure if you mean this but, I noticed immediately that the pixelation patten on the nose is less grainy and this over too large and too anatomically demarcated an area for me to think that it is an artifact
I would advise everyone to save the originals they downloaded from the defense website, I suspect we may see some more believable photoshop iterations of this pic slid into circulation if the heat about the first generation increases.
and btw, now we have a good sense as to why Serino gave the SA a black and white low resolution copy, when he had such a perfectly “good” color copy.
Two sides to a story
I sincerely can not concede at this point that Zimmerman got clobbered
whonose – No one said the defence photoshopped the photo. It is not a new photo. Those of us that have been following this case know that it was the prosecution that entered the black and white in the first document dump. We have been awaiting the original. I guess you have been away for a few days. This was discussed the day the photo came out.
whonoze – by the way, in a former life, I was a graphic artist. In my professional opinion, this is an altered photo.
The pic also has no chain of custody. I read that the device used to take the picture, the original file from it, allegedly, was deleted and not available, so, having had the pic come up three weeks later, and the dimensions of his head are completely different from all of his other pictures, including the ones from childhood on up to court, which all have a chain of custody, the admissibility of this picture is in question
The thing I noticed most is why his head all of a sudden got thinner in width, and the head elongated, and the chin is much more pointy and pointed off than in pictures that are taken at the station
I also did a side by side comparison where the length of the eyes are the same with his police station photos and then the width of his head is so abnormal in the bloody nose photo, it becomes questionable
so its probably in Wagner’s best interest, honestly, if the state just argues admissibility of the photo into evidence LMAO
Jun said
but wait….the head got thinner but the nose got wider or stayed the same width?
look carefully, I myself measured the noses
In the new pic the nose stays wide while the head appears to be narrower along with the bridge of the nose between the eyes.
WHONOZE
There was NO ICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@whonoze,,you said: “I apologize if I came off as a forensic Photoshop expert, which I’m not…. However, I stand by my earlier statement that people (and it’s not just here) don’t know f-all about this stuff. In all the comments about the “Photoshopping” there was not one bit of evidence offered — Photoshop-wise. Just supposedly self-evident broad level comparisons that aren’t at all self-evident.”
_________________________________
yeah well no one said they were an expert, i certainly didn’t. So your statement ‘that people don’t know f’all about this stuff’ isn’t necessary. and since you don’t have evidence to support your ideas either, they don’t mean shit. that’s self evident.
True Shannon, I agree with you 100%. The only “expert” here is the professor on the law. The rest of us are here to learn. The photo looks fishy. It has a broken chain of custody thus useless in legal uses. I’ve read many complex responses about photoshop, so plenty has been presented. I don’t know what whonoze wants.
Sent from my iPod
IDK either, but it’s annoying and condescending.
Yeah. It gets annoying. BRW what happened to your old avatar? I miss the cute little guy!
Sent from my iPod
you know what, i used to post on OS but was banned. then a few weeks later my friend told me some asshole was using my avatar and old name. I almost had a heart attack!! so i changed my IP and went back and freaked out on the forum and got the poster removed. i only go back there once in awhile to keep an eye on Rene Shulzman ( reporter that reports things biased toward GZ ) and support my friend SweetiePie2. but last week i went back for a few and even tho i don’t use my old name my new name is similar and the zimmerlovers know it’s me. it’s over run with nasty zimmerlovers now b/c they actively banned ALL the FOT (friends of Trayvon) and i mean ALL of us. it was so obvious that by 3-5 days after i was banned there were NONE left. ONLY zimmerlovers where commenting. it was unbelievable! so then eventually about a week later there were hardly any comments at all since the zimmerlovers got bored with no one to argue with!
now, as i was saying but got sidetracked (ADD) LOL the OS stopped banning everyone but most FOT haven’t gone back since a lot of us made a big effort to correct them at the time and they didn’t do it until they lost all the posters. So the other day i made a comment and 10 min later someone had started using my kids pic again!!!!!!!!!!!! i freaked out cas this time they shopped the pic and made him look like a devil or something!!!!!! of course i freaked and made them get rid of that poster, but it makes me so angry that someone had the nerve to touch my kids pic i decided to change it for awhile…
That’s why i understand Sdunes suspicions ( ive known her from the OS) when the pic of her kid is used by some scumbag!! there’s reasons to be suspicious of some people.
Wow! Those people are pond scum. Yes, keep your pic safe. I always thought it was cute as all git-out!
Sent from my iPod
I think the SPD gave George some advice as to how to handle the next incident before the trayvons murder and George did what they suggested and a kid is killed. That’s the only reason I can think of that would explain why the SPD would alter the photo
This was informative, thank you.
Just my .02: there will have to be experts involved in this case, from the medical field. Two or three plastic and/or trauma surgeons from teaching institutions, preferably peer-reviewed published ought to clear this whole thing up about the seriousness of the injuries.
State: So, Dr. [insert name of expert witness here], can you summarize for the jury your credentials, please?
(half an hour passes while the expert explains his or her CV)
State: In your expert opinion, are these injuries serious?
Expert: What injuries?
HAHAHA!!
State: So, Dr. [insert name of expert witness here], can you summarize for the jury your credentials, please?
(half an hour passes while the expert explains his or her CV)
State: In your expert opinion, are these injuries serious?
Expert: Yes Sir. They caused a paranoid delusion in the mind of the defendant. He lost touch with reality. It appears that condition has become permanent.
LOL!
In the legit photo from the police station, GZ only has tiny red dot on the top of his nose. I definitely think the photo of the back of his head is doctored as well. His two tiny scrapes do not justify the amount of blood that is running down his head. He didn’t need stitches. You don’t bleed that much unless the cut is deep. The streaks of blood are also pretty much untouched. No smearing from having his head rubbed on wet grass. The experts will crucify these photos.
Yes, I really have a feeling that they will.
And that is exactly why the defense is working so hard to manipulate public opinion about the photos now. Damn we’re good! :]
lololo x2!!!!
I love your avatar. It’s a t-shirt I’d wear!
i know it’s funny cas i’m the first one to be mean!!
but i just found it online somewhere 🙂
I would have a graphics expert on the stand explaining how the photo was altered. I am quite sure the delay in producing the colour photo to defence was due to it being in the hands of FBI analysts because just looking at it one immediately senses something is wrong with this picture.
Anything could happen, but I can’t imagine that they won’t have a technical expert on this one.
Now if the first photo was altered, John would know and I can see him willing to lie about that and risk jail unless he was more involved than we know
The picture is altered, that’s all there is to it. The face is not “intact”. The nose is not swollen, it is enlarged by photo manipulation. http://tinyurl.com/co9ouag
This is not the result of lens defects or artifacts, the red swath is over a part of the nose that should remain in proportion to it’s surroundings in both the left and right pictures, it does not. It is stretched downwards and even the angle of it’s bottom edge increases. Even while the bridge of the nose above it, narrows and moves off center. In short, the picture on the right does not represent anything real that was placed in front of the camera. GZ’s face would have to be made of clay to get that result.
Even his lips look to be those of someone else.
O
M
G
Lonnie – when the black and white came out with the first document dump, the same discussion took place on this blog. Whonoze, do you remember the differing opinions then. Not much different now. Except then, someone (maybe you can remember) said it looked weird and someone said it was because it was taken behind the window that was up and the lump on the side of his nose was a band aid.
thanks whonooze – that was my question to you earlier. i suspected that the facial distortion had to do with having been taken on a crummy phone cam rather than any photoshop work, but i appreciate the confirmation.
His nose still looks too flat…no, not as flat as the one LLMPAPA posted….but flatter than the one taken at the police dept. And his left earlobe is longer too.
That is not it either. I measured the nose and width between his eyes with a tape measure. The only differences changed in the picture were the width of his head, the fact that his height of his head is longer, and his chin is thinner and more pointy. The photo is definitely photoshopped and doctored. There is also no chain of custody from Wagner’s phone. Also, the pictures with a chain of custody at the station, show a recovery within 5 hours with barely any medical attention since it was so minor. The date and time the pic was taken is very suspect.
follow
BTW, I support not using the defendant’s name, which Tzar recommended, and Malisha’s use of “Fogen,” a shortened version of the word “forgotten,” itself a shortened version of the ancient Hebrew and Egyptian curse:
“Let his name be forgotten.”
The purpose of the curse is to deny immortality to the person who is the subject of the curse.
It works well for other purposes like rejecting his narcissism and denying him notoriety, which Fogen obviously feeds on.
And is a good substitute for all those names you’d love to call him but shouldn’t! LOL!
Just occurred to me: Look at the 2005 incident where Fogen assaulted an ATF officer (first they charged him with doing so “with violence” and then they dropped the charge down to doing so “without violence”) because, he said, he did not realize the guy was law enforcement. Fogen’s explanation was not “I didn’t do it” [remember, the witness against him was still alive and was a respectable witness] and not even “I had to do it” [claiming self-defense] but rather, “I thought he was just some guy who was beating up my friend.
Look at WHY he thought (allegedly) that the officer was “just some guy” and look WHY he thought (allegedly) that “some guy” was beating up his friend: because he knew that his friend “had a problem with dancing with other guys’ girlfriends.”
So he starts from: I know that my friend has a problem
He goes to: Therefore my friend could get into a situation where somebody wants to beat him up
He develops the idea to: Therefore a guy seen physically subduing my friend is likely to be someone who’s angry about my friend’s propensity for dancing with other guys’ girlfriends
He considers: I can attack this guy on my friend’s behalf
He concludes: I will attack this guy on my friend’s behalf.
That’s according to his OWN story abut the event.
So, we see three things about this progression:
1. Fogen credits his own assumptions about people and situations as automatically valid enough to act upon;
2. Fogen thinks as long as he has a good motive, he is allowed to do things that are ipso facto illegal (such as assault, regardless of one’s motivation);
3. If Fogen is wrong about his assumptions, he lays the blame on others who didn’t do enough to clear up the difference between Fogen’s assumptions and the real situation. The others on the scene are responsible for convincing Fogen not to assume that they are wrong and in need of his intervention.
THOSE ARE THE SAME THREE THINGS that made him think it was OK to kill Trayvon Martin.
1. He assumed Trayvon Martin was some kind of criminal and he credited his own assumptions about Trayvon Martin as 100% valid even in his written statement to the police in which he refers to Martin as “the suspect” 18 times.
2. He believes, and still says, that because his motive was good and shouldn’t be criticized, what he decided to do (kill an unarmed kid) was permissible and he should not have been charged with a crime.
3. He has promulgated the theory that Trayvon Martin should have simply explained peaceably to Fogen that he really wasn’t a bad guy, really wasn’t a criminal, wasn’t where he shouldn’t be, wasn’t suspicious, etc. The question of “What are you following me for?” or the question of “What the fuck’s your problem, homie?” would not be good enough for Fogen to simply say, “I’m with the Neighborhood Watch and I’m just trying to figure out if you belong here.”
Remember, he could have gone up to the ATF guy and asked, “Hey how come you’re beating up my friend here?”
He didn’t do the right thing in either case and in both cases, he still thinks it’s all about him making up a story that presents HIS impressions and HIS assumptions as valid enough to justify breaking the law.
Ok this my seem odd but what or who is Fogen, I assume you are talking about George
Ok malisha, I read professor post underneath so I understand now.
At a different place there was a poster who was rumored to be GZ. Looking at the content of his posts that seemed pretty plausible. Once he said something that gave me a pause. He said that Trayvon had baited GZ by running away. If it was him then that would fit this pattern perfectly.
OMG OMG PYorck, that’s PRECIOUS! “Baited GZ by running away!” OMG that’s what the Jews did in Germany in 1939! OMG It is so psychotic!
In the alternative, we would have expected Trayvon to say to DeeDee, “Honey, there’s a creepy looking white guy following me; I have to hang up and let him know that his wish is my command, talk to you tomorrow.” And then he would have stood up straight, saluted, and said, “At your service SIR, what can I do for you SIR?” And that would not have baited GZ. Unless…
👿
His thinking always deflects responsibility away from himself, doesn’t it?
What name did he use and where. I know of 2 that are 99.999999% proven to be Fogen.
It contains a religious term.
Hmmmmm, that one doesn’t ring a bell.
Ok, it has been suggested on this site before and the user hasn’t been active for quite some time anyway, so I might as well be more specific. I was refering to this comment. Of course it can easily be wrong, but his habit of speaking for GZ is remarkable.
I don’t think that’s Fogen. The one that are 99.99999% proven to be Fogen do not use intelligible sentences. Listen to the way Fogen talks. bishop sounds a little more intelligent, BUT, I could be wrong.
Remember he is a mental midget.
Well, in case he hadn’t noticed, there’s a higher standard than what he believed in his own head, when he takes someone’s life.
The requirement that the threat to his own life be “a reasonable belief”, is not in his own eyes, but in the eyes of the jurors.
Now, he’s welcomed to tell them how and why, he believed that he feared for his life! Unfortunately, if it was because of the gun he was carrying, the law says, you can’t carry a gun to a fight, and use it to claim self defense! Which is why NW rules tell him not to carry a weapon. The law says if you carry a weapon, then you must retreat from a fight, no matter SYG or concealed carry, because if your opponent isn’t armed, then you are the only one making the situation deadly.
While, on the other hand, if you fire your gun, you had better be damned well sure that it is necessary! So, unless GZ can somehow convince the jury, that an unarmed teen is a deadly threat, I’m afraid his beliefs of danger were not reasonable, and no jury is going to think that they were.
In short, GZ is toast!
Well, ShelLIE was the reason he was on patrol….and remember….nobody came to help him….so it is always someone else’s fault. God help us all if this guy walks.
Cmon – he didn’t even remember he had the gun on him until Trayvon’s hand began running down Tugboats manly chest.
Define “manly”
This is a great post, and very accurate. It also describes how narcissists act. GZ is definitely a narcissist.
I understand that on one of the threads I missed, a commentor was labeled a “troll” for showing skepticism toward some of the anti-GZ argumentation. This commentor is not a Treeper, but an independent thinker who tends to take a skeptical eye towards any strongly held position. (AFAIK, this person believes GZ is guilty of manslaughter at least.) Such people should not be shunned, but welcomed. This blog has become a bit of a pro-TM anti-GZ bubble. In order to bring GZ to justice via the legal system, the prosecution will need sharp arguments that can hold up under cross-examination. Arguments are not sharpened by attempting to debate true trolls. As NLME said long ago, “debating George Zimmerman supporters is worthless.” Arguments ARE sharpened by listening to skeptics and carefully considering their critiques.
I disagree but whonoze feels some need to leave his own blog to critique others. To “Right” thinking people it is obvious what the evidence in this case suggests. For you to have personal knowledge of someone who posted here whom you claim was called a troll well…..it seems odd to me that you have such intimate knowledge of this poster. I believe we should shy away from name calling however to say Mark O’Mara is a moron is not the same as attaching a label like Moron O’Mara. Therefore I stand by my opinion that Mark O’Mara is a moron.
I don’t have personal knowledge. The subject came up on bcclict. I stopped posting on my own blog because I haven’t had the time and energy to put into it.
Perhaps I am incorrect however you say in your post that this poster (who was called a troll) was not a “treeper” but an independent thinker who is skeptical of strong anti-GZ opinions (I am not quoting you verbatim) this suggests you have personal knowledge otherwise how would you know if said troll was not a “treeper” then continue your defense of this poster as an independent thinker who is skeptical of strong anti-GZ opinions?
sdunn5,
I can verify that the commenter in question – unitron – has always been a skeptic pertaining to particular arguments for and against Zimmerman. Since this case became national, I’ve been following several blogs before I came across this one, and he – and whonoze, for that matter – has participated in the same manner, and without trolling. I’m sure there are others out there, who might otherwise comment, but who refrain because the rhetoric and name-calling is simply not worth it. Heck, when I stood up for him a few posts back, the response to me was like a slap in the face.
A person who simply questions a point or an argument is not necessarily a participant in the poison you’ve found elsewhere. I know the damage and pain that causes, but, here, give the benefit of the doubt.
Regarding Unitron:
Unitron is in a class all by himself. I mean that in a nice way. I think people misunderstand him, kinda sort of like Ed Nelson. You get what he saying only after a week of thinking about it. 🙂
nemerinys perhaps whonoze can comment himself. As far as trolling perhaps whonoze could explain to me why I just had to remove his wordpress account from my additional search engines. More specifically I would like an explanation why he was there and this is not the first time I have removed him. I think that is a bit more then a troll considering my personal photo has reappeared this morning at the Orlando Sentinel under a former banned user name getgeorge75. I might add that the hacker (more benefit to this low life then their due) posted several pro fogen comments. I see this as a threat and I do not believe it is a coincidence.
@sdunn5
Regarding Whonoze:
You said:
As far as trolling perhaps whonoze could explain to me why I just had to remove his wordpress account from my additional search engines.
I will say this once and leave it alone as he did.
I believe Whonoze already addressed you on Bcclist about some commentary that you you two were going back and forth on. Actually it was more posts/comments from you to him. He had stated in his final post to you he didn’t have a clue what you were talking about and would not comment to you further. I will not copy and paste and post everthing here, because I feel it would disrupt the thread.
Whonoze commentary is very much appreciated and well thought out. Whonoze can and will leave his own blog to go wherever his fingers take him. He is not commited to just stay on his own blog. There are other commentators that have blogs that post regularly here.
Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don’t. I can tell you that when I did disagree with him I did it respectfully and pointed out why I felt the way I did. I also included in that post, my appreciation of his specific talents that we use to this day in regards to the Trayvon Martin Murder case. He does not have to explain your search engine problems, nor the picture on OS. I would suggest to you respectfully that you contact your IT dept, or OS to get that person IP address so you can address it legally.
I find that what you are suggesting of Whonoze is not valid.
Respectfully
BlushedBrown
i’m with you Sdunn5, yesterday was a very HARD day. i for one was exhausted and stressed out from yelling at my TV as Omar spread his blatant lies. it upset me to watch ALL the news because i was constantly trying to figure out whether or not the news commentators where being fair to Trayvon. I realized that i feeling super paranoid, listening for dog whistles, subtle hints of someones point of view, anything and everything!!
i still don’t know what to think about what i was thinking…did HLN have enough people on Trayvon’s side?? why didn’t they split even coverage of Omar’s interview with someone speaking for Trayvon??
I really don’t think it’s fair to have Omar on the whole day and Mr.Crump for only a few minutes literally. I just think something is wrong when the defense gets all that time on the ONLY court TV channel and not the victims representatives..
@blushedbrown – Well said, and thank you for accomplishing this (you know what I mean).
@sdunn5 – I wasn’t writing on behalf of whonoze; my comment was specific to what you had written.
@nemerinys
Huh? I have no idea what you mean. 🙂
Whonoze, tell him or her to come back. I tangled with someone on one of these threads recently but I believe I did so respectfully. If that person is the one you’re thinking of, let him or her know that if he or she needs some kind of concession from me to come back to the conversation, let me know.
This blog is a valuable intellectual resource and should be open to the valuable intellectuals. I think it gets overheated when the defense team does something hurtful to the Fulton-Martins, or casts blame on the publicity that was necessitated by the corrupt police department protecting a suspect from normal and necessary treatment that any governmental respect for equality would dictate. That kind of outrage does spark an angry emotional response and the Professor is good to remind us that we need to control that. But our discussions are so important that we shouldn’t decrease them either by letting the anger get away from our good sense OR by losing participants whose contributions are very significant.
whonoze,
Arguments ARE sharpened by listening to skeptics and carefully considering their critiques.
Precisely. An echo chamber is boring, and someone questioning or criticizing a particular argument is quite different from a troll who simply wants to churn the waters.
I have to agree. There is no way the prosecution can win if they don’t look at both sides so they can anticipate what is coming. They can get their best advice from those who don’t agree.
And this whole thread here has me terribly confused. Are we ONLY allowed to post anti-Z posts? Is that what is being said?
Don’t know where you got that idea. The answer is absolutely not. Say anything you want, just be civil when you say it.
You’ve never ventured near the boundary, so don’t worry about it.
What I read is that people who post proZ arguments, do not do so using the evidence that has been released, but they do so by ignoring the evidence. I’ve seen better proZ argument made here by people who are pro Trayvon, than I’ve seen proZ arguments made from that side, and it is for good reason. GZ has cut off just about any way, any exculpatory theory might be constructed. By “whip lashing” back and forth, to construct quick fix patches to an already mangled tale of how the events unfolded, GZ has first repudiated his own self serving narrative, only to come back again and repudiate his second narrative, and insert absurdities besides.
What we don’t need is people trying to tell us that Trayvon might very well have skipped away from GZ, or that TM wasn’t afraid of GZ.
There is evidence that refutes that idea. If there is a viable theory of innocence for GZ, we cordially invite anyone to present it.
We expect that such a theory will not be capable of getting around the facts of this case as we have them. But, they are welcomed to try, and we will debate with them calmly and respectfully. As long as they don’t try to play us for idiots, by claiming that Trayvon had six hands, or weight 300 lbs and was a martial artist of some kind etc.
The only proZ’s we’ve driven off, were people who continued to insist that what could not be true, was what actually happened, and refused to desist when their argument was debunked and/or their theories were shown to be flawed. Because that is what is called “trolling”.
So, until such time as someone appears with a viable theory, based on the evidence, that they can defend in a sensible fashion, we’ll keep attacking and subjecting our own theories to challenges. Because that’s what we do.
You’re right, that’s what we do….and well I might add.
Well said Lonnie!
Lonnie S, I cannot turn down the challenge. “If there is a viable theory of innocence for GZ, we cordially invite anyone to present it.”
(I had to watch a bunch of crime shows on TV in order to come up with this, but it was worth it because in Law & Order SVU re-run of “Trophy” presented on 11/3/2010, series 8, episode 256, I saw an actor who had no lines, simply was pushing some laundry around when the body was discovered, who looked SPIT AND IMAGE exactly like George Michael Zimmerman before his head was 45% covered with blood — this is the actor who will claim his fame by starring in the first made-for-TV movie about the case, I’m sure of it)
Anyway, here goes.
Fogen was leaving his house after mentoring the kids. He was headed out for groceries but some guy from Wyoming who had a personal helicopter was circling overhead because his sky-maps were all messed up because his four-year-old daughter, who had Down’s Syndrome, had accidentally spilled coffee while trying to give him his morning kiss. This guy was a tragic figure whose history is only discovered much later by the clever computer research assistant in the detectives’ office who dyes her hair a different color each morning and records what happens that day in order to establish her own theory of the effects of reflected light on crime. So the helicopter guy finds himself over Sanford at 19:01:23 hours NT and just at that time the ostrich he is delivering to the Orlando Zoo begins to get rambunctious and won’t keep his seatbelt on. The brave but clumsy pilot tries to restabilize the bird but loses control and to save his helicopter and his life, he accidentally hits the “EJECT BIRD” button on the dashboard and the unfortunate and unruly ostrich falls out of the helicopter right into the path of youngster Trayvon Martin who is, at that time, returning from the 7-11 where he made a drug deal with three strangers (two Black, one white, to show a lack of racism) before heading back home to see a game. Martin is at first amused by the falling ostrich but then becomes quite upset about the injured bird, who starts squawking and limping around while blood pours out of his or her (it’s hard to tell with ostriches in the dark) neck, wing, abdomen, and one sort-of-knee kinda thing that happens in the middle of his or her left or right leg (I don’t remember; actually my memory is kinda bad; I have RVP). At first Trayvon heads toward the bird but then, reconsidering, skips away. GZ drives by slowly just at this time. Trayvon feels he has to call DeeDee to tell her what happened because he doesn’t know the number of the nearest emergency veterinarian help-line (he’s from out of town) and GZ feels he has to call the police NEN line. But when they answer, GZ feels like they will think he’s crazy if he says, “Hi, an ostrich fell out of a helicopter and got hurt and some Black kid is trying to help it but he’s not…” they will think he is crazy and they will lock him up in the psych ward and medicate him against his will and Shellie will be left alone in a dangerous world, so he says, instead, “Hi we’ve had a lot of break-ins around here and I see a real suspicious guy…”
Then things get worse and worse. GZ feels like he just has to get out of the shtruck and put the ostrich out of its misery because it can’t possibly be healed and it’s suffering. Strangely, it must have learned from a parrot some pretty foolish words, and it is squawking, “Die tonight, motherfucker, skreeeeeeeee skreeeeeee! Gulp! What the fuck’s your problem, homie? Skreee! Shut the fuck UP! Skreee!”
GZ knows that nobody will believe him unless the youngster who also saw what he saw is there to tell the cops what happened, and to back up GZ’s story, so he runs around looking for the kid, but can’t find him. The ostrich keeps shrieking and it makes GZ kind of forget what he’s doing because it’s so outlandish and irritating and he’s pumping adrenalin and feels overwhelmed. Memories of an abusive childhood flood back into GZ’s mind and he kind of gets clumsy as he charges around in the dark, getting a bump on the back of his head, and it reminds him of the time his mamma (who was a holy terror) hit him in the head with the metal pancake turner at breakfast when he was six, all because he complained about lumps in the oatmeal, and he shouts out, “fucking lumps!” as his memories get all mixed up and he’s in extremis. Then the bird flaps around and kind of emits a horrifying shriek. He remembers, just at that moment, that he has his gun on him. He will put the big bird out of its misery (and some time later, a Presidential Candidate ennobles that effort by proclaiming that he will do likewise) and he pulls out his gun and shoots the bird one time.
But then the bird disappears.
He leans over the dead body and hears the last words, “You got it?” He stands up and sees flashlights and police. They will never believe this story about the ostrich. He makes a split-second decision to change the story a little bit…
LOL, good show, you wrapped that one up in time for the deadline… Film at 11.
I completely agree. If I have a question on here that doesn’t seem to have an answer,yet, I wouldn’t want to be considered a troll. I’m trying to find evidence, logical explanations and the truth. That’s why I like this site.
Here’s a list of the audience my evidence pile draws:
United States 488
Mexico 34
Canada 25
Russia 11
Germany 8
South Africa 3
China 2
France 2
United Kingdom 2
Netherlands 1
As you can see the audience is worldwide, I’m sure this blogs stats are similar and even higher still. So let’s not devolve into a cesspool of wild remarks, there are people out there looking for understanding.
Thank you, Lonnie, a very good point about the worldwide audience.
That’s what I’m on here for, looking for understanding. I do a lot of posting on a site that is mainly political in nature. It has both liberals and conservatives on it. Unfortunately, it seems that a person’s political views seem to be the dominate factor as to whether or not that person will try to smear TM or not. At least on that site it goes down party line. The crying out for his life, most apparently by TM, has no cognitive dissonance in their belief. To them, the black kid asked for it unless you can prove otherwise. They would rather agree with the vile characterizations placed on TM by their like-minded cohorts.
Well, the proof of this matter, unlike in politics, will be what evidence is more convincing to the jury. In politics you have to use little tricks, like finding or figuring out what your opponents followers are inclined to agree with and then figure a way to use that to divide and weaken them. Each time you manage to do it, or other things, they get disheartened and some even get disillusioned. But you have to play the “long game” in politics, in a criminal trial the short game will do nicely, provided the facts are on your side.
Just remember, the weaker the case is, the more words will have to be used to support it. Keep it short and appear strong.
That’s horrid. I was actually in a group like this on Facebook after The Hinky Meter site went defunct. It didn’t matter what you said to them about the evidence, they were so very right wing conservative that it was all Travyon’s fault, basically for being black! Made me sick.
I love that you did this post professor,I for one believe that name calling and rude remarks should be beneath us. I believe this blog is and should be about the “truth”, and analyzing the evidence so that we miss nothing.
Yes, I agree, we need to wind back on some of the rhetoric, or be seen as no better than other sites. Try to remember, profanity is offensive, that’s exactly what it is meant to be. Do not use it unless it has some redeeming effect, and probably not even then, because creativity can have an even more powerful effect, without giving your audience offense.
Hi, Lonnie and Professor, I sure hope I never offended anyone on this blog. I would never want to come even close to comparison to the other blogs. That is why I never, never, read over there. It is painful to hear the hurtful things being said, and two wrongs dones not make a right. Thank you Professor.
@Lonnie, Professor. correction – two wrongs does not make a right.
oops, the paragraph should have read..
Even if the client is accused of the most heinous crimes, there’s no reason to call the attorney who is representing this person names, after all if it weren’t for defense attorneys we would have “no one” to protect our rights, not “anyone”.
🙂
I’m the one who coined the term and it was in response to what the Members of the Z Nation calls Trayvon, his family, their lawyers, the Prosecution, and all of us.
We all have the right to express our feelings, is there a problem with that?? We agreed to stop at this point, so belaboring the point with multiple posts is singling one out.
Not meaning to change the subject, but Professor and friends, you might want to check out the most recent TalkLeft thread on the Martin murder case. JM usually warns and bans people right and left for disagreeing with her (she tends to call an opposing opinion trolling) but she’s got her co-blogger disagreeing with her about the NBC case right now. : ]
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/12/6/171331/327
So you want me to refrain from “Moron O’ Mara” ?? I feel way to strong about that issue, but it’s OK.
I’m not happy with the dude either, but calling him a moron . . .
Yes, it’s over the line.
No Problem.
This I agree
😦 So many wonderful names….. ‘sigh'[ Being a grown up sucks.
cielo62…..LOL…. I agree ! And especially after reading the comments they make on the other sites…..grrrrrrrrrrrr 😡
Professor Leatherman,
Thank you for making it clear that calling Mark O’Mara a moron is over the line. May I suggest that calling Atty. Jose Baez “Bozo” be over the line as well. When I was blogging on the Anthony case, the word bozo was spammed.
Even if the client is accused of the most heinous crimes, there’s no reason to call the attorney who is representing this person names, afterall if it weren’t for defense attorneys we would have anyone to protect our rights.
I’ve always respected defense attorneys no matter who they represent. It’s my belief, that every accused citizen of the USA is entitled to a defense lawyer, even Mr. Mark O’Mara, even Casey Anthony.
Thank you for your lifetime work as a defense attorney.
Baez IS a bozo. Pardon me if I’m breaking a rule, but JBmission, you’ve been on about Baez for the past 4 years. Is that going to stop soon?
A
It sadden to even look at the injustice that’s being done to this Family! I will keep the faith in Angela Corey and her team, I believe BDLR will hack away on the fact that Trayvon was running away from his chaser!
@Jalessa White, I agree and, there have been thousands and I guess even millions of other murdered kids in this country and never have a one of them been DISRESPECTED. this one is different only because of the color of his skin and, there are even mothers joining in the HATE TRAYVON MARTIN BRIGADE. it’s kind of hard to be civil when some white people in this country, can hate a murdered child just because of his skin color. as I have said before, the Columbine shooters did NOT get this kind of treatment and they killed other kids and some adults. Trayvon wasn’t the instigator here and yet he and his family are being treated in a harsh manner, just because a person who is lacking all that GOD promised him, decided to take the life of an innocent kid. those in other countries are seeing this country for what it really is, all because of those who think the life of an African American kid is less than that of white kids. it’s my hope that they will one day walk in the shoes of Tracy, Sybrina and Jahvaris! they really need to do just that.
@ladystclaire:
I have to agree with you. There have been thousands of kids murdered in this country and not once have I read about any of them being denigrated the way TM has been because of his skin color! It is absolutely disgusting and appalling to me, an Army vet, who volunteered to serve and protect this country. What for? To only come back and find that racism is at an all time high, to see our first black President called names and be disrespected by others and to now see another young black young man shot to death by some drunk man, who is now claiming SYG? SYG. Legalized lynching IMO! Yes, even the Columbine shooters did not generate this much hate, nor did Susan Smith, Andrea Yates, or Darlie Routier. James Holmes in Colorado, and Jared Loughner in Arizona, did not generate this much hate nor were they shown as much disdain for the fact that they are white either, and yet they committed henious crimes against others whites, but yet, GZ who is Hispanic/White, has been able to reel in the racists to his side. if GZ had shot and murdered a white kid, he would be called names and blamed for all that ails America due to immigration.
Professor, with all due respect to you and some of the wonderful people on this board, you and the other whites on here, could never understand how we, as black people(and I have Hispanic roots too) feel in America. Especially those of us, who had parents who were raised in the deep south during the Jim Crow era, where their very life depended upon their being subservient to whites and defering to whites. The stories my parents would tell me were those of shame. It is very hard to be civil to some people on these threads (not the Professors blog) but to read the hate perpetuated by them makes my blood boil. I cannot even go over to the Conservative Treehouse or any of the Twitter sites where they routinely demonize TM. I cannot do it. I know those people are sub human bigots and ignorant, but I cannot read their garbage! I know that MLK did not want us to respond with violence or hate but sometimes, the words of Malcolm X rings in my head. Malcolm stated to the reporter, “How long do you think that black people were going to let white racists discriminate against us, point fire hoses at us and sic your dogs on us before we fnially got angry and retaliate back?”
TM was the innocent kid here who was killed and his killer not only stole his last screams, but is also complicit in the denigrating of this young man.He fabricated his story to cover his ass and now relishes in some sort of celebrity status. This young mans entire family has been treated like trash. Because TM was a black kid, the SPD (some of them) had done a piss poor job when this kid was murdered. He didn’t matter to them because black life doesn’t matter to some people. I pray for the Martin/Fulton family daily to have to put up with the BS that they have to hear, read and deal with? Myself, Tracy, Sybrina, and Ladystclaire, did not have to suffer the racial indignities of the Jim Crow era, but you know? It still exists! Just because the law is no longer in effect, doesn’t mean that the attitudes and the mentalities from that era is not still prevalent today and we can see that as evidenced by this case.
I readily admit that your experience growing up Black in a racist society that denigrates Blacks is alien to my experience. I can read about it and listen to you and others describe it, but that isn’t and never will substitute for the experience itself.
I was an only child and I was raised in a racist home with racist parents who despised Blacks and Jews. They tried hard to imprint their prejudices in me, but they failed. I have trained myself to recognize prejudiced thoughts when they surface in my consciousness. I’m sure I miss a few now and then, but I am aware and keep working on it.
I have devoted a career to representing racial minorities, the poor, the mentally ill and the marginalized.
I believe in the Golden Rule and the teachings of Jesus, the Revolutionary, who taught us that we are all equal in the eyes of God.
I am by nature a warrior and as long as the life force sustains me, you will find me at your side fighting for justice, equality and love for all people, regardless of race, color, gender, sexual preference, or religion.
This case is all about racism and those who deny it are willfully blind or liars.
You and I and everyone else here have a sacred duty to do the best we can to make the nation and the world see that.
The disparate treatment supports that, and the world sees it; i.e., why was the victim tested for drugs, but not the killer? Why were the victim’s fingernails clipped and tested for DNA and blood, but the killer’s hands weren’t touched for any forensic testing? If the killer was innocent, why would he run and hide within hours of killing the victim where the police could not contact him by going to his home, but had to call on the phone?
Very moving. Well stated.
@DGM. Very well said. Thanks
Excellent commentary and thank you for expressing it so well!
@DGM, thank you my sista in blood. this is suppose to be the best country in the world but, when we have people who rejoice at the murder of an innocent AA child who has harmed no one, what does that really say about the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA? it tells me that some people in this country long for the days of Jim Crow and how it use to be. they have not and they never will evolve with the rest of society. I am Black, White and Native American on both my mother’s and my father’s side. I am proud of who and what I am because, I am what GOD THE ALMIGHTY made me. no matter the color of anyone’s skin, we are all the same on the inside and, as it says in the Bible, GOD MADE MAN IN “HIS” IMAGE! so, therefore, I know He loves me and mine just as he love these racist hypocrites. we are all His children. red and yellow, black and white, we are all precious in his sight.
Off topic but has anyone else notice the gun shot heard in witness 3 911 call it’s faint but you can hear it at 18 sec into her call
Interesting, will check out her call again.
Thank you Deborah Garner Moore.
@Operacarla, Xena. Professor:
All of you are absolutely right on! You, and the other posters on here, acknowlege that bigotry and racism still permeates this society in 2012. You all have devoted your life to working to end it. Professor, I am sorry that you had to go through what you did as a young boy. When you grew up, it must have been difficult for you to hear so many denigrating things about Blacks and Jewish people, and once you met a few black people and Jewish people and saw that they were just as normal as you were, you were trying to figure out why your parents had so much animosity against an entire ethnic group of people but your parents only repeated what they had been told from their families, and friends. That is how the cycle of racism continues and you have stopped the cycle! Bless you.
Xena: I agree of course that it was reprehensible the way several members of the SPD treated TM, the victim. They did a piss poor job because the life of a black kid did not matter to them. Black people work, and pay taxes to pay the salaries of the local police, but the Matin/Fulton family were treated with disrespect and disdain by several law enforcement members of the SPD. They still operate somewhat like the good ole boy racist police departments which operated in the south in the 1940’s. Many of them, law enforcement by day, and card carrying members of the KKK by night.
The SPD assumed that TM was a nobody,a gangster, a goon, who did not have a family who cared about him. They never even bothered to find out who he was or call his father who had reported him missing. GZ was able to walk away, and wash away whatever evidence he had on him that night in lieu of the fact that this was an active police investigation. He thought his daddy Z could make a few phone calls to influence the local racist SPD, and GZ could walk away. They never figured that this story would become national news and that prominent civil rights leaders would take up the case of TM. They had not counted on this at all, and that is the reason why GZ was finally arrested, and the SPD is being investigated by the DOJ.
That is why the racists bigots are now screaming that GZ was arrested because of racists. They would like to turn the tables and flip positions. No one except for themselves believe that crap.
What they are actually saying is, Blacks have too much power. In small towns across America where those in authority make decisions based on the color of skin, there’s not much citizens can do about it without media coverage. Those towns want to keep their corruption secretive. When Mark Anthony Barmore was shot twice in the back in the daycare center of a church by cops, and Jesse Jackson came to organize protests, I heard White natives of the city complain that Blacks were bringing in “outsiders” to cause trouble.
You see, there’s that basic mindset that if the population of people of color are kept uneducated, isolated, and employed in minimum wage jobs regardless of education and experience, then the “system” can be corrupt as it wants to be. Bigot racists do not see this as “oppression.” When they are able to bring in other Blacks who do not live under oppression, then that is interpreted as “outsiders” coming to cause trouble.
The SPD assumed that Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton were subjects of oppression. Metaphorically, they were to take Trayvon’s body down from the tree, bury him, then sing some “Old Negro Spirituals” and go back to the plantation as though nothing happened.
@DGM, you know what, when the civil rights leaders Sharpton, Jackson, Ben Jealous among others took up the call and this case not only went national in a NY minute, it also went global and that is when the racist came out from under every rock in the country. they did not want the rest of the world to see how some in this country still feel towards blacks. their dirty little secret was exposed for the whole world to see and, I’m glad it was. we can’t expect to tell other countries how to treat all of their citizens fairly, when blacks and other minorities are still being treated like second and third class citizens in their own country. smh
How very true. The Professor is very wise. Much appreciated advise.
Agreed! The high road is the better way to travel.