A Word to the Wise

I write today to express concern and remind everyone that we must remain on the high road.

There is a natural human tendency to retaliate in kind when attacked.

Yes, I am dismayed by the reprehensible disregard for the truth and below-the-belt tactics that the defendant, his defense team, and their supporters use on a daily basis to misrepresent the evidence, promote the defendant’s false narrative, and demonize Trayvon, his parents, Benjamin Crump, Natalie Jackson, Dee Dee and anyone who supports justice for Trayvon.

We are better than that and we have truth and justice on our side.

We are mature adults.

We are responsible for the choices we make and the acts we commit.

We should never demonize or taunt anyone and that includes the pathetic defendant.

They will know us by what we do.

Remember that before you publish your comment.

Frederick Leatherman

842 Responses to A Word to the Wise

  1. blushedbrown says:

    I second the motion.

    • @ladystclaire:
      Exccllent post as always! Yes, I also do not think it was appropriate for Angela Corey to pray with Ms. Fulton and Mr. Martin. I am a very spiritual individual myself, who does my own share of praying from time to time, but praying has no business in the affairs of the State. The State represents the victim, and that is what she should have told them, all the while, vigorously telling them that she would do her best to seek justice for their son with the evidence that she hss gathered and will continue to gather. That would been much more appropriate. I may have some posters who disagree with me, but praying with victims family and then stating informing the public? That was totally inappropriate IMO. The family are very religious, but we need to keep religion out othe affairs of the State. She was not in church. Why would she do that? Did she do this with other family members who lose a loved one? I don’t get that whatsoever.

      • Malisha says:

        Corey is good at theater too.

        I heard of an Army CID guy who used to get down on his knees and pray with the suspects so they would confess. He said there was no better way to get a confession than to pray with them, and especially if HE, the agent, shed tears during that prayer, he could get confessions! I was of course appalled. But he had a great success rate with all kinds of crimes, and most of the time, the courts martial didn’t have to actually hear all the evidence and rule; the defendants pled!

        No as to why Corey would pray with the victim’s parents? I think it was for her own image. To make her look so serious and passionate to the public.

  2. Two sides to a story says:

    I’d agree, but why is it taking so long to bring this matter to SCOTUS? Some states have had SYG laws for quite some time now.

  3. Malisha says:

    THere is a section of the SYG law that is absolutely and without any doubt UNCONSTITUTIONAL and that is that no civil suits can be brought against someone if he gets out of the CRIMINAL charge on a SYG. Here is exactly why that is unconstitutional.

    Criminal charges are brought by a prosecutor who is a state employee and who has pretty close to absolute discretion to bring charges or not to. That is not subject to review. The state must make its case “beyond a reasonable doubt.”

    Civil suits are brought by individuals who have a First Amendment right to petition their government for redress of wrongs. They don’t need to convince any prosecutor of anything before they sue. They have a right to sue and should have a right to make their case by “preponderance of the evidence.”

    The prosecutor does not represent the injured party in a crime; he represents the PEOPLE.

    An injured party has his own right of action against someone who harmed him, whether the harm was a crime or not.

    Look at the OJ Simpson case: Same act led to acquittal in criminal court but recovery in civil court. That is constitutional.

    Taking away someone’s private cause of action when they are not parties to the legal proceedings that give rise to their loss of that private cause of action, and cannot make decisions about how to prosecute that cause of action, denies civil litigants who feel they have been harmed the right to petition their government (the courts) for redress of wrongs. A single judge rules on a single motion without a jury and takes away a cause of action from civil litigants in a process THEY WERE NOT PARTIES IN? Even the principle of res judicata says THEY HAVE TO BE PARTIES in order for their rights of action to be alienated.

    It’s unconstitutional. The first time some good lawyers take this up it’s got to get heard and the first time it gets heard there’s going to be a mighty fight in this country that will go to the SCOTUS: 100 amicus briefs will go in, including all the crazy gun-rights folks and the skinheads and the corporations who want private murder rights and folks like Fogen who already believed they had them. 👿

    • Jun says:

      Actually, if you read closely, it says for the “use of force” which the defendant is claiming for the gunshot. There are other issues to get at him. As well, the statute is only for state, it does not control federal, so they can civilly go at the defendant federally, or even criminally go at the defendant federally.


      Both state and federal have murder laws


      I dont think the defendant will get past the state but he is not going anywhere

  4. Jun says:

    For those who were doubting my assertion regarding the shadows

    Here is a pic I took of myself

    As you can see, there is a shadow on the right side of my face and there is a shadow under the chin

    It is a dead giveaway

    • Jun says:

      Now here is the alleged defendant’s photo, side by side with his police station photos

      as you can see, there is no shadow on the defendant’s face, where it should be

      • racerrodig says:

        Look at the T shirt. It does not look like the same one. Look at the seam about 1/4 inch down….it’s not there on the other pic. The color is different. There is a vertical seam at about the 3 o’clock position on one and not on the other.

      • Jun says:

        LMAO I did not notice the shirt discrepancy until you noted it. It does look bluish compared to the grey.

    • racerrodig says:

      Can’t argue actual documented “Proof”

  5. 704 comments!!! omg!! lets make it a 1000!!! we can do it 🙂

  6. State’s Response to Zimmerman’s Motion to Compel Evidence from Third Party

    • @ SouthernGirl, i was just looking for that! thank you doll 🙂

    • Cercando Luce says:

      What BdelaR said! After reading State’s response, I want to use racerrodig’s appellation for Faux-gen’s counsel. Not so as to be derogatory, but precise.

      • Cercando Luce says:

        And the quote from Counsellor Benjamin Crump shows that he, at least,can read judicial English even if Appellation Controlee cannot.

      • Malisha says:

        Oh I like Faux-gen! “Gen” is the root for the words generation generate and so forth, meaning “create.” Faux means “false.” Fogen has set himself up to be a “false creator” – a demigod, a false god. The Outhousers and those like them worship him in a nasty form of idolatry. I like “Faux-gen” a lot.

        From now on when I write “Fogen” I am incorporating “Faux-Gen” by reference. Hereinafter. 😎

      • blushedbrown says:

        So sorry typo * can not *

      • racerrodig says:

        The more I think about the high road issue in consideration of the source, the less inclined I am to refrain from use of the “M” word.
        You can use it all you want.

        Does anyone thing MRN will actually adhere to what is stated in paragraph 3 in this Motion.

      • @fauxmccoy

        LOL! You’re too cute!

      • Cercando Luce says:

        I’m so sorry to create even the misperception of a hint of an inkling that you could have any connection to Fogen!

        • racerrodig says:

          Since you coined the term “racerrodigs appellation” after I was “scolded” for using Moron O’ Mara why not “RA” when we refer to him.

          So Fogen’s Motion that was prepared by RA is a farce.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      I am happy with the State’s response. Now the defense can shut up about the recording device. They can go view it at FDLE. I’m glad the BDLR pointed out that the defense has trouble reading and following court orders.lol Also, that Crump does not represent the State of Florida, and imo since the defense got the names they wanted and can now go to FDLE for anything they need regarding the recording and the device, there is no need to depose Crump anymore…i hope BDLR brings this up to the Judge and she agrees.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      Also, I’d like to point out that because Crump gave the device to FDLE, just as he said he did the other day on In Session, this is not a victory for the defense. That is not what they wanted. They wanted the recording device to be given to them…not to FDLE. They wanted potential jurors to believe that Crump was purposely not following the judges orders(which no order to give them the device existed) and they wanted potential jurors to believe that Crump edited the recording and that it would prove that DeeDee never existed and/or that there are multiple DeeDee’s. Can you say c-r-a-z-y?

    • Rachael says:

      Way to go Bernie!!!!

  7. grahase says:

    Another thank you goes out to Sanford Watch:

    • blushedbrown says:

      Thnak you Sandford Watch.

      • Rachael says:

        “Money for Murder.” Sounds like a song title. Maybe I will write one using Money for Nothing – Dire Straits.

        Again, I do think in some ways the lawsuit IS legit – only in so far as it was a bad edit job and does not fairly portray GZ with what happened *at that particular instant.* However, NBC already admitted they made a mistake and took care of it. As far as damages, how is he going to prove that NBC made him look any worse (as if that would be even possible) than what was later said BY HIMSELF with regard to “*ucking *oons? There is NO way to prove that NBC made him look worse, he already “looked” bad, he didn’t lose his job because he had already quit, he would have trouble finding a job anyway – not because of NBC but because of his circumstances already, he already couldn’t sleep, he already had left his home. There is no way to figure damages from what they did because the damage was already done BY HIS VERY OWN SELF. And even if he is convicted, again, there is NO way to figure how much, if any, NBC would have been responsible for so I don’t think it would be able to be used for an appeal. The real damage done was already done by, continued to be done by, and continues this day to be done by GZ himself.

        I do believe the edit was wrong, but again, they took care of that and I do not see how there can be money damages figured from it, especially since they are saying all these other people and news outlets portrayed him badly too. Who is to say which ones and how much.

        But what it comes down to for me is, there is no one and nothing that has portrayed him to look any worse than he himself (and his lawyer and family).

        If you don’t want it heard, don’t let it happen.

        • blushedbrown says:

          “Money for Murder.” Sounds like a song title. Maybe I will write one using Money for Nothing – Dire Straits.

          I look forward to that. I like that song. An oldie but a goodie.

          IANAL, I don’t understand how legally they can do it , but this is America. I think O’mara is under the gun with his client. NO PUN intended. From what I understand from news reports, this was ill timed. If GZ keeps pushing O’mara to do these things, I can not see him staying as his lawyer. I think the professor mentioned that he it’s too late for this, I happen to disagree. But then again, IANAL.

  8. Randy Radley says:

    I agree that the high road is worth the effort but sadly for many (I can really only attest to my own actions) it is not the first
    (or sometimes the second, third, etc) reaction. Thankfully, each day brings not only a new opportunity to re-evaluate yesterdays choices but the chance to make honest inroads into new behaviors. I give thanks for being a dynamic creation over a static one. Funny how my spirit convicts me of being on the lower road but also encourages me to strive for something less comfortable but ultimately more rewarding. Fred, happiest of holidays and keep telling it like it is, my friend.

  9. Malisha says:

    Mike, I listened to that 911 tape about 20 times and I heard a gunshot much earlier than the murder shot, too. The reason I listened so many times is that the report had come out saying Fogen fired one shot, and that the gun had only one shot fired. (Can they really tell that?) Anyway, I began to wonder if Osterman was there and if there was another gunshot. Then somebody claimed that the first sound was “a door slamming,” but it sure didn’t sound like a door. The woman on the 911 tape says, “There’s shots fired” and then when questioned about how many, hesitates and ends up going with, “one.” I really don’t know. Maybe the FBI has a way of determining whether a short, sharp retort is or is not a gunshot.

    About the text messages from Fogen using the “N word,” I certainly wouldn’t be surprised but I’ll wait until we see or hear something. That could make this trial into the reverse of a “Mark Fuhrman” experience (reference OJ Simpson).

    There is no doubt at all in my mind that Fogen is capable of both enormous stupidity and enormous arrogant racism. He also thinks that he can get away with saying anything at all because he can clear it up later when an explanation that people are obliged to accept, since he is so superior that they cannot choose to disbelieve him. See, as his bro claims, disbelieving Fogen is ipso facto wickedness because it’s un-American to damage the credibility of a “decent American.” This kind of reasoning has brought us all the ills our society suffers from, frankly.

    • you know other ear witnesses said they heard two shots. one said she/he heard pop, pop. like two in a row.
      i know what your hearing, i heard it too, but i’ve just chalked it up to something else since Trayvon only stopped screaming after the last horrific gun shot sound. that sound is so scary…

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I feel that could easily have been an echo between buildings after the real shot. People in the right position would have heard it, but others would not.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I haven’t heard the two shots, but I will say this about that. If there were two shots, and TM stopped screaming only after the second one is heard, then the second one is a real one, confirmed by reaction. While the first one could not be an echo, since an echo cannot kill, nor can it precede the shot, it is supposedly the echo of.

          • blushedbrown says:

            I don’t think it was 2 shots, think it was an echo effect.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            All I’m saying is, an echo would have to come after the actual shot has been fired. An echo cannot come before the shot is fired. The primary sound leaves the gun, and reaches the ear first, while the echo first travels away, then gets reflected back to the same ear, over a longer distance.

            So, if someone did hear a shot like sound before the real shot was fired, it has to be something other than an echo. That’s about all I can say about it. I did not hear it, I didn’t even listen for it.

            Every once in a while I listen again to the NeN tape, I hear too many noises for what is supposed to be taking place. Now that I’ve heard the knocking sounds clearly, I know they are distinguishable from the gun racking sounds. The gun racking sounds, sound just like gun racking sounds. As compared to sounds generated by gun racking. There are also, what appears to be partial gun racks in there, as though someone was fiddling with a gun. So, I ask myself, why would GZ have his wife’s gun? Where was his gun?
            Could it have been put back in his truck? Is that the reason he left his keys in it? So, it could be quickly removed from the scene?

            If Osterman was in the crime scene, prior to removing the truck, it stands to reason that Shelly was there or somewhere nearby as well.
            Otherwise MO would have had to find her first, before he helped her remove the truck. Hardly a wonder then, that the police cars stage on RVC instead of TTL. So there would be no dash cams to capture what might happen to the truck. Maybe the media cams should be paid some attention?

          • blushedbrown says:

            OHHH, I understand now, thank you for clarification.

          • racerrodig says:

            Maybe the 1st crack sound was Fogens Noggin being bashed on the concrete ? Naaaaaaaaaaaaaa !

          • blushedbrown says:

            You make me laugh every day!
            Did you have coffe yet? … bout to get some. Cream and sugar right.

          • racerrodig says:

            Hey Thanks !! X-tra C & S

          • blushedbrown says:

            You wrote:

            Every once in a while I listen again to the NeN tape, I hear too many noises for what is supposed to be taking place. Now that I’ve heard the knocking sounds clearly, I know they are distinguishable from the gun racking sounds. The gun racking sounds, sound just like gun racking sounds. As compared to sounds generated by gun racking. There are also, what appears to be partial gun racks in there, as though someone was fiddling with a gun. So, I ask myself, why would GZ have his wife’s gun? Where was his gun?
            Could it have been put back in his truck? Is that the reason he left his keys in it? So, it could be quickly removed from the scene?

            I too listen every once in awhile to the NEN call. I tend to listen in the frame of mind of not what I hear, but in the context that I hear it.

            I know GZ is in pursuit of Trayvon. That is clearly indicted by him geting out of the car. I also hear and was not looking for it was a door closing before his door closed. One further away because his phone is further away from a passenger side door. @2:07 shit he’s running @2:11 first car door close sounds further away @2:14 second door closes sounds like his door because he is closer, its louder in the call, its his door. It is very likely that Shellie or Osterman was with GZ in that car. I lean more towards Mark.

            Even though he was armed when he left his vehicle. He was not thinking of that at that moment. about his gun. He was more interested in chasing/following him at first. Then the racial slur. Gearing himself up. He didn’t want to lose sight of him. He is following him. Operator told him we don’t need you to do that. THAT did not sit well with GZ. He doesn’t like being told what he can and can not do. I believe in his mind he thought OK, I gave you a description, I told you about the breakins, I told you he was BLACK, I told you he looks to be up to now good, I told you has something in his waistband, and you tell ME ” We don’t need you to do that” He tries one more time He ran. Operator not paying him any mind. Ok George what ‘s your last name. By this point GZ has made up his mind to get his gun ready. @ 2:42, I don’t care what anybody says, that was him racking that gun. @2:45. He says under his breath SHIT GUN, once again I don’t care what anybody says that is what he said. In keeping with the context of the call, and knowing all over the internet that the Kel-tec9 is a piece of sh*t gun. It is totally reasonable for him to say that while talking with NEN. He is not focused anymore on the operator. He made up his mind right then and there. He would use his gun. In the context of this entire call, What else can he do. He feels stronger, superior with it. He has a gun, he’s seen this kid, he fits the description of the breakins, He is going to do this himself, regardless of what a stupid operator says. Also noted by my own experiences that I will get extremely calm to let the other person I am in control when in reality I am not. GZ does this in his call after he racks the gun.

            As far as the other sounds following the rack, I don’t believe he was trying to fix the flashlight, I lean more towards a door. The reason being is a doesn’t take all your brain cells to concentrate on getting a flashlight going. He is extremely distracted. I think somewhere along these lines. You ever go to a friends house, and you knock on the door, but you have your wife on the phone and you are telling her something but don’t want the wife to know that you are at your friends house and he opens the door, but you are trying to signal to him don’t talk, because the old lady is on phone. But you are trying to signal to him, go to the car with hand motion to get the beer out of the trunk. Without talking but trying to answers all these questions she’s asking you on the phone. That’s how I hear that part, he is with someone trying to talk but not talk. Someone else was with him and or he kncoked on John’s door to incorporate his help.

            Ok Lonnie what do you think?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            It could very well be, but we aren’t hearing the same things as each other. I can’t yet hear the second door slam. I’ll simply have to remember this material until I get a chance to listen again with this in mind. All I can say right now is, there’s clearly more going on than just GZ walking and rapping on a flashlight.

            Did you notice how the Judge was looking at GZ when BDLR recounted the bail hearing activities? She didn’t make a face, she had a deadpan stare at him, as if her jaw would drop if she let it.

            George didn’t even notice it at all, so he’s shaking his head over the way the hearing went, when he should have turned white as a sheet.
            MOM and West noticed it, it chilled them to the bone. But they have no choice but to soldier on.

            Once GZ is found guilty, and is brought back to court for sentencing, his knees will buckle for sure. I think the seriousness of his situation is just beginning to sink in. My guess is money has ceased to come in and the latest media blitz isn’t working. Notice how the treehouse took a heavy pause? They’ve been thunderstruck and it’s about time.

            Meanwhile someone should get a message to FT and tell him that his heavy drinking is making his nose swell up and turn red. That won’t look good if he’s called on to take the stand.

          • blushedbrown says:

            I do hope that you relisten, and consider this:

            We have more information of GZ that either one of us care to know. We know his history of how he says things on NEN calls. Hell, we have six audio clips of those calls. We know he is adamant of controlling and patrolling the neighborhood. We also know his violent history. We know his history of following people in his own car chasing another car from previous 911 reports and on foot. We know he carrys a gun everywhere he goes, except work of course. We know his propensity to lie.

            Think about all of that, then relisten to the NEN call. The only thing that is irrefutable is that call, from beginning to the end. He is and always will be tied to that phone call.

            Deadpan stare. Yes. She could give Clint Eastwood a run for his money.

            George shaking his head, was not a good idea. IIRC when O’mara was stating his case about the Judge considering his bond modifications, very softly I might add , after Bernie gut punched him the Judge side glanced toward George, the fool didn’t even look up because he was busy texting. If you watch it again take a look.

            Frank Taafee should find his nearest AA meeting and just stay there.

            I think the knees are bucking just a little now. He was not happy about the Judge denial for bond restrictions. He will take it out on his lawyers. GZ thinks the more motions he makes his lawyers file the more cooperation he will get with the court system. He is finding out that no matter how much you whine and squeal, you are basically done. Time is ticking the more GZ has his lawyers playing with paper, the less time they have to prepare. The bad thing of it is, I think under different circumstances O’mara would of did a good job. Meaning if he got control over his client, by shutting him the hell up early. But then again we wouldn’t have all this to go over.

            O’mara would have more time preparing for trial if it wasn’t for his client Demanding from him, file this, I learned this in school. Or file that, my dad said that would be good, or I read at the treehouse this would be a good idea. The demands are getting to much for O’Mara and Company, look at how many times he said in his interview he was frustrated. I know he keep saying it was the slow poke SA, and Crump and this person and that person. Who he is really talking about is ole George.


            I am pretty sure GZ is looking for a way to get rid of Nelson. But I believe that ship has sailed a long time ago. In the mean time the clock keeps ticking.

            Tick Tock Tick Tock

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I’ll have to listen again to be sure, but it’s getting to where it’s becoming painful. GZ is now without any credibility at all, nothing he says can be believed. In short, he’s a witness of nothing at his own murder trial, imagine that. MOM knows it, I’m sure he watched as the judge fixed her “open mouthed” gaze on GZ, after BDLR unmasked the bond hearing material against him.

            If I read that look correctly, the judge stopped her jaw from dropping, and was trying to wrap her brain around: Why would a murderer banish his own credibility at a mere bond hearing? I’ll bet she now understands that she’s looking at a monster.

            For sure, someone else was able to detect that GZ is a monster and they decided to feed it. GZ was not alone, he’s way too stupid to have planned this all by himself, because he doesn’t believe the elements of it, have any real meaning. Which says that he could not plan, because he has no idea of what needs to be manipulated, except to react opposite to accusations.

            He says “skipping”, not even realizing that skipping is an action that requires a very happy, almost irrationally ebullient frame of mind. Children tend to fear the dark, which is why you’ll never see children skipping after dark.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Lonnie wrote:

            I’ll have to listen again to be sure, but it’s getting to where it’s becoming painful. GZ is now without any credibility at all, nothing he says can be believed.

            Its easier to listen to the NeN call then the witness calls, those are hard for me. But I got to do it. Alot of people have done so and made credible arguments as what can be heard.

            I agree with you on his credibility. There is none. I think he is able to plan, carrying it out is another thing all entirely. I am going to school. That is a plan. But he doesn’t finish. I want to be a cop. That’s a plan. But doesn’t even enter the academy. I want to open my own business. that’s a plan. But that fails. He plans and plans and plans, but never follows thru.

            The ridiculous statement, he was more like “skipping”, made GZ sound even more delusional after the Hannity interview. I believe he even made his supporters go HUH? He said what? And the money only dripped in after that. Even those people said to themselves, OK I’m done with this guy. How could they argue against a statement like that?

          • racerrodig says:

            No, no, no, no, no ! All thugs skip. It’s like back in the seventies when the punks in town wore a red headband around their right leg it meant they had drugs to sell, or was it the left leg ??

            If they wore a blue headband around the leg they wanted to buy drugs.

            When a thug is skipping, it is a sign he’s out to bait a 28 year old Caucasian with Hispanic heritage, that is armed, but specifically with a 9mm Kel-Tek, that drives a Honda RidgeLine, into a savage, brutal, vicious, head bashing beat down…………but only in the rain, on Feb 26th, in FL, while wearing a gray hoodie, with a picture button of grandma, after buying Skittles……..which as we all know is the snack of leading thugs everywhere.

            I hope this clears that up ! { – ;

          • blushedbrown says:

            You definitely had your coffee this morning!

          • racerrodig says:

            “You got me…” or “You got it…” No matter, it’s time for a 2nd cup !

          • blushedbrown says:

            Vroom! Vroom! Vroom!
            Go Speed Racer!

          • fauxmccoy says:

            oh look out! racer is at the top of his game today 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Maybe I’ll mosey on over to HP and fire up the Zidiot Nation today.

            We must be getting to them as there are fewer Zid’s there than ever. The same 8 or so and the funny thing is that the ones we know are Fogen, Papa Z, Jr & Taaffe and never on when there is a court hearing……just like Tuesday. Then they all appear within minutes of each other later on………..

            Coincidence …….I think not !

          • fauxmccoy says:

            oh, please do – i was having some fun at their expense last night and am up for more today 🙂

          • racerrodig says:

            Maybe we can do a tag team. My friends Straightshooterz and shootman will be on later. I am a bit jammed up in the shop for another hour or so, but I’m always up for a good time.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            works for me racer – i am on california, disabled persons time and could use another caffeinated beverage or two.

          • racerrodig says:

            Understood. Look for my friends also.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Be sure to quiz them on why the Judge’s jaw almost dropped when BDLR recounted the bail hearing and George didn’t look up, or show any interest at all.

            Oh and don’t forget to ask them to speculate on why George shook his head “in disgust?”, at the end of the proceedings. Hahaha.

            Then ask them why the board went so quiet after the hearing? Let them know how puzzled everyone on the net was when that happened.

          • racerrodig says:

            Noted as Q #3

          • @Racer:

            I monitored the hours while I was at work, the number of posts on HP from the usual Z family members while the trial was going on. NADA! Then the minute the trial adjourned, they pop up again! We all know it is Rob, Frank, George, his dad who should know better and probably Shellie. A bunch of nutcases. This famiy is stone crazy!

          • racerrodig says:

            I’ve been doing that since I first suspected they were newbee, LJP and the rest of the psycho patrol. The bottom line is it’s almost over but the clapping and they know it.

          • @Racer:
            Some of the psycho brigade is back, and some are not. I wonder what they think when we post how immature GZ is, and how childish he is and the truth about what a troubled man he truly is. I posted today the medications GZ informed the ENT staff he was on, what they were for and how they effect a pt. Why this man was in possession of a gun and on these powerful benzo’s is a mystery to me. It is obvious that GZ has some serious psychiatric issues based on the medications that he is prescibed.

          • racerrodig says:

            My friend Straightshootez was on HP twice today and there is nary a Zidiot to be found. He posted several times that newbee, LJP, and a few others are never on when there is a court appearance, No Denial.This was actually asked several this “…what row were you in on Tuesday…” No denial.
            Lets see what new names they use now. I think the blanket denial was just to much to handle.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            No wonder he was charged, that sort of behavior isn’t allowed until after the full moon.

          • racerrodig says:

            Another “Duhhhh” to me. I forgot about the full moon. I think there is something about Fogens astrological thingie also…..something about Uranus ??

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I’m wondering what MOM will think up for the Jan 8 motion hearing? It had better be good I don’t think the judge is going to take kindly to refiled motions about now.

          • jm says:

            Lonnie do you think Judge Nelson is aware of the possibility that the picture MOM was waving around was doctored as compared to the official police pictures 4 hours later where Chorge’s nose was miraculously cured of deformity?

            It just seems as if MOM is insulting her intelligence with his antics.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            If she doesn’t know it already, the SP will cover it for sure.

          • racerrodig says:

            i think Judge Nelson will stand by her “No means No” posture.

    • Tzar says:

      a preceding shot would also help explain the dismal sense of terror and submission in Trayvon’s shrieks as he would have realized that this was his life flashing in front of his eyes (some claim to hear him call for his mother moments before he was killed).

      • Malisha says:

        If the police did not outright LIE on purpose, then we have to presume that IF the first “pop” (which was separated in time by quite a bit, and “Jeremy” was still changing locations) was a gunshot, it probably came from a gun other than Fogen’s gun.

        • blushedbrown says:

          You reminded me of something when you said, other gun.
          IIIRC, In Singleton’s interview with GZ. She asked what kind of gun was it. He replied Mine? Oh it was a kel tec. When I first heard then read it, I said to myself, now why would you answer that like that. She’s not talking to another person in the room, only him. It made me pause and think and say hmmmm was there another gun or gunman with him, to suggest he needed clarity as to who’s make of gun she was asking about.

          If I find audio or written document will post for you.

          • racerrodig says:

            “In Singleton’s interview with GZ. She asked what kind of gun was it. He replied Mine?

            No stupid, the shooters !! I thought the same thing back then but forgot about it.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Totally thought the same thing. I was yelling the same thing at the computer when I heard that. I said to myself “What idiotic thinking!! My God !

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I’ve read that he had Shelly’s gun that night.
            I also heard on the NeN tape, the sound of knocking, which does have the feel of flashlight rapping, and I hear sounds that sound like gun racking and partial racking.

            The gun racking sounds are distinctive because it’s metal on spring loaded metal sliding. The flashlight rapping sounds like just that, because door knocking would have a different frequency I suppose.

      • Tzar says:

        I said to myself “What idiotic thinking!! My God !

        not so idiotic if you are half drunk or drugged and can not keep your lying mind steady
        GZ should have need drugged tested tht night, with the probable cause being improper cognition, he had a lot of idiotic moments or Freudian slips

        • blushedbrown says:

          Yes. and yes and YES!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Of course, that’s just another indication that the police were working with GZ to cover up evidence of any crime. They should have insisted that GZ go to the ER with no other options allowed. Especially when the medics discovered that GZ had no normal elevated functions after such a traumatic experience.

      • @Tzar, yes, i clearly heard Trayvon screaming for “mom, help me”! It’s undeniable. i couldn’t hear what other peeps have heard like ‘i don’t know’ or anything else like that, but i can’t bare listening to those horrified screams again, and i’ve tried. it rips into my guts and causes physical pain to realize Sybrina and Tracy have to hear those pleas as the last they’ll ever hear from their baby!! i can’t imagine hearing my baby on tape in his last minute screaming for me to help him and i wasn’t there. GZ should be charged with torture of Trayvon and his parents!!

      • Rachael says:

        @shannoninmiami – I very clearly hear “I don’t know.” I do not hear “mom, help me,” but I do hear “mama” and I fall apart each time. I think of my son, of any kid about to die and their last words being “mama.” It tears me apart.

        • @Rachael:
          I clearly hear TM screaming, “Mommm.” “I’m begging you!” “I don’t know! I don’t know em! Mommm! Helpppppppppp!” I shudder everytime I hear that 911 phone call. Listen again with ear phones on and you can hear TM and even GZ in the background screaming at TM! GZ shot this defenseless kid to shut him up! He is evil personified!

      • Lynn says:

        @Malisha The interview w/ Z saying “Mine?” is here around 8:30

    • Two sides to a story says:

      “it’s un-American to damage the credibility of a “decent American.” This kind of reasoning has brought us all the ills our society suffers from, frankly.”

      Yes, all the fine white folk (among them my ancestors, no doubt) who supported the Native American holocaust and slavery also saw themselves as decent Americans. The very best kind.

  10. Judy75201 says:

    I hope Fred is OK.

  11. Lynn says:

    Here’s something else I found interesting. Staring at that picture all day made me wonder how the EMT O’Rourke could testify at the first bond hearing about 45% blah, blah, blah. I found the interview with him by Special Agent Supervisor David Lee. http://www.5dca.org/Clerk/George%20Zimmerman%2012-3198/12-3198_Appendix.pdf
    Pgs 60-61 were what irked me. The more I read the more I wonder. 1)The man didn’t remember overhearing Z say anything (even though T.Smith claims Z spoke of his screams for help during the time he was beings cleaned up). 2)He doesn’t recall asking Z any ?’s about him or his injuries or his pain. 3)He couldn’t tell what Z was wearing. 4)He didn’t recall was TM was wearing. 5)He says there was a “significant” amount of blood…45% covering his face and head. 6)He says there was “substantial” dried blood on his cheeks and head. 7)and finally…when asked about blood on his clothing…Maybe…yeah,yeah,yeah…there was blood on his shirt (if he remembers correctly).

    SERIOUSLY??? Does MOM think this guy will be his star witness telling the jury about Z’s poor broken nose?

    • oh he can’t recall if GZ had blood on his clothes? really, but he saw 45% of his noggin was covered in blood? i’d love to see someone with half of his head covered in blood but not get it on his clothes! where did it run to, UP? gz’s blood doesn’t follow gravity like ordinary peeps, his flows up and over his head, so it never messes up his neatly tucked in shirt and spiffy jacket.
      yep, this guy did a real bang up, professional job that night.

      and thanks for the link.

    • Tzar says:


    • Malisha says:

      AYALA was the one who said in writing in his report that Fogen told the EMT he had been screaming for help but nobody helped.

      And AYALA did not note blood on the clothing.

      • Lynn says:

        I hadn’t read Ayala saying Z had been screaming, but T. Smith had said he heard him saying that in the cruiser while EMT’s cleaned him up. Funny thing it isn’t in Smith’s 1st statement or supplemental statement. Pgs 14-16

        But is in his interview with SAO Pg23

  12. Lynn says:

    Just putting a few of my thoughts out here on the photo. I have no camera expertise. But I’m curious enough to grab my cell phone today and pose for a couple pics of myself in a closeup face. Not pretty I assure you, but it had to be done. lol Face straight on shows my long beak and double chin…Face from a higher angle was like a different person. My forehead was large, my beak looked like I used a editing program to s-t-r-e-t-c-h it down a few inches, and my chin was this tiny point. Looked exactly like Z’s pic. Made me think about those cute dog nose photos. Distorted!

    Kinda going the devil’s advocate route here so don’t shoot the messenger, please. The picture was taken with a cell phone vs a professional camera. Wagner would have been higher than Z if Z was seated in the cruiser. The car door would have made him take it slightly from the right side. Lighting/shadows could be explained with phone camera flash, overhead/dome light in car, or supplemental flashlight aimed at Z. None of these conditions make for great pictures with a cellphone.

    All this coupled with the side by side of my own face (no way I’d post those) makes me think maybe it wasn’t doctored. I’ve played with editing software before and I could easily create a look to match the scrape on Z’s side nose. That being said, I think it’s real cause I don’t believe he was punched and suffered a broken nose with swelling. I think he scraped it on that stupid sign and that welt would have disappeared within the next 4-5 hrs in the police photos taken at SPD. How many of you have ever kicked your shin on a end of a bedrail or the likes? You don’t break skin open and bleed…you have an abrasion there and it welts up instantly. You usually swear a whole lot and rub it, but you don’t bother going and getting an ice pack. The swelling goes down shortly. It simply leaves a scrape and sometimes you have a slight bruise there. That’s what I think it looks like on Z’s nose. I see a tiny bit of blood trickling from his right nostril (left side of pic). Just enough to come from the few broken capillaries inside. I do see a scratch under his nose in the SPD photos. I think that is where the droplets of blood hanging on his nosetip came from.

    Okay. Hit me with your best shot…but try the cell phone experiment before you do.

    • whonoze says:

      Lynn, you’re exactly right about your cell phone experiment. Many of the aspects of the Wagner photo are a result of the high camera angle, coupled with a short camera-to-subject distance and the wide angle lens of the camera. If you look at someone else’s head with the naked eye from 45° above from about a foot and a half away, their forehead seems huge, tapering down to the chin sitting on an even skinnier neck. So none of those effects in the Wagner pic are a result of doctoring.

      And GZ did have an abrasion on the side of his nose, which likely produced swelling.

      But how much swelling? I do not think the photo was edited to add things that weren’t there at all. I think it was edited to make relatively minor wounds look more consequential. In the Wagner photo the bridge of GZ’s nose above the abrasion is asymmetrical. The side of his nose to the cam-left of the wound on the bridge has disappeared.

      Try this with your cell phone. Take a similar pic as before, but hold the phone just slightly to your left above, not dead center above. Turn your eyes, but not your head itself, toward the phone. This should put the highlight on the left side of your face, and create a shadow line on the right side of your nose and eye socket, but not on the right. Look at the distance between your right eye and the bridge of your nose in your new photo, and compare it to the Wagner photo. I think you’ll see what I’m talking about.

      There are several ways in Photoshop to isolate an area of a photo and change it’s color characteristics, making just that spot brighter and bolder. I think that was done to the blood on the lips, which is just oddly bright, and not really the color of blood. We could write of some of that to the color rendition characteristics of the cell phone image sensor, except his red jacket appears to be the same color in the side-by-side with the station photos, so the blood should look like blood.

      grahase could explain better than I can, but there also seems to evidence of the use of the Photoshop blur tool to smooth out some of the editing around the nose. The problem with the blur tool is the results are usually too smooth, disrupting the pixel pattern that can be seen in the outlining area that has not been blurred.

  13. whonoze says:

    Crane said upthread that whether or not the photo was doctored doesn’t matter to the case against GZ. But it just occurred to me that it might, assuming the editing can be authenticated by the proper experts. First, there goes O’Mara’s whole plan to use testimony from the SPD officials who believed GZ should not have been charged to argue for dismissal. Quite the opposite: if evidence was tampered with, that would seem to indicate that somebody thought GZ was in trouble. Third, it would certainly affect the credibility of any SPD officers who were called to testify at trial.

    If the photo was altered, we can’t now know for sure the who, when and where, but by far the most probable scenario seems to be that it was done before Wagner transmitted the image from his computer to the lead investigators. I am asking myself whether a low-ranking officer such as Michael Wagner would undertake such an audacious criminal act simply on his own initiative? If he is part of an old boy network, might he have consulted some of the other old boys, including whoever is the de-facto leader of the boys club?

    Wagner sent the photo to Serino on March 18, just short of three weeks after it was taken. That’s plenty of time for the people who said ‘Let the fogen go!’ to start worrying about the evidence Serino and Singleton had collected in the form of GZ’s not-credible statements, the recording of the fogen screaming exemplar, etc. etc. etc. Perhaps the old boys didn’t give a rat’s heinie about GZ himself, but felt a need to come up with some evidenciary back-up to justify their own earlier decisions. (Dumb asses should study some history: it’s usually the cover-up, not the original mistake, that brings down the powerful.)

    I think the Obama Justice Department doesn’t want to touch this case with a 10 foot pole, but they may be forced into action if the media take up a ‘photoshopped pic proves police corruption’ frame (you know so NBC can boost its ratings some more at poor Zimmie’s expense). Could we see a scenario where Wagner gets immunity or pleads to a drastically reduced charge and sentence, in exchange for implicating his superiors? Wishful thinking perhaps, but a guy can dream…

    • Jun says:

      I think all that will happen is the picture will simply not make it into the evidence at trial because of chain of custody

      • Xena says:

        IMO, the State has a good argument that the photo was not taken under proper conditions such as the police station, by EMT’s, or at a hospital. Which leads to a question — since when do EMTs and paramedics NOT take photos when the person claims he was physically assaulted and what’s more — physically assaulted requiring him to use deadly self-defense?

      • Rachael says:

        I didn’t think EMT’s and paramedics were allowed to take photos at the scene. Something about violating 1st amendment rights and certainly a violation of HIPAA. But I don’t believe that would be the case with law enforcement.

        • Xena says:

          I didn’t think EMT’s and paramedics were allowed to take photos at the scene. Something about violating 1st amendment rights and certainly a violation of HIPAA. But I don’t believe that would be the case with law enforcement.

          Patients may have to sign a release. It is just very, very odd that when a person alleges that they were assaulted justifying killing their assaulter, and they refuse to go to the hospital, that the police did not take before and after clean-up photos.

          Then again, if the person assaulted did not believe his life threatening injuries required anything more than water and peroxide, who should argue with him? (shrug)

      • Jun says:

        Perhaps the photo was dropped to get the defense salivating and then blam, it gets denied into trial LMAO

        I dont feel Omara will go there because he has a numerous record of falsely presenting evidence and information and Wagner’s lawyer will def shoot back at him with that

      • Logi says:

        I am a licensed Paramedic, We do not take photos in cases of assault, that is Police business. When we have a pt who was assaulted, depending on the severity of the situation, the officer takes pics in the ambulance before transport or treatment. If the pt. is transported the police follow to the hospital to take pics when able.

    • Rachael says:

      Some very good thoughts whonoze!

    • fauxmccoy says:

      whonoze – if the spd and wolfinger’s office highest ambition with the case was a local grand jury, then that photo would have been sufficient for their purposes. nefarious, but sufficient. in the grander scheme, as you suggest, if altered, it is criminal.

    • FactsFirst says:

      I know y’all prolly tired of talking about the pics,but I gotta feeling those pictures were not taken with Wagner’s phone. I believe those pics were taken with the neighbor/witness phone and maybe that’s why it took so long for Wagner to “REMEMBER” them.. I say that because I didn’t see any mention of this neighbor/witness in any of the police reports, but he was the 1st person on the scene with a flashlight taking pictures talking bullets… just saying…

      • sdunn5 says:

        @FactsFirst exactly!! I took another horrible look at discovery yesterday and the ever-changing documents etc. Wagner claims to have taken the photo in the Police cruiser…then suddenly 3 weeks after the “event” when he was informed (wording may be different but I could care less to semantics at this point) there were no pics of fogen, he claims to have downloaded them to his laptop…then deleted them from his iphone. The witness who also had photo’s “John” while being interviewed on 3-20-2012 suddenly tells FDLE he has photo’s as well…same story downloaded to his laptop and deleted from his phone…..not good I think for the defense. Who doctored what? I have no idea…not my job to figure out but the implications are a insurmountable obstacle IMHO.

      • OMG! i remembered those taken by the idiot witness who said he took two pics: one of GZ’s face and one of Trayvon. and then when the Fdle came he had the same story that Sdunn5 just said.

        So is this one that witness took or did Wagner take it??? B/C i thought the witness took them right away… ( that guy should be bitchslaped for taking pic of Trayvon!! HOW DARE HE!!! )

      • sdunn5 says:

        TY Shannoninmiami it is very weird. Both say 3 weeks before “oh I have these photo’s on my phone” then…..?? I saw a short video by Llmpapa “why am I in it”? The witness that says “I just heard no, no before the shot”. Wow and yes because of these cowardly people and their tatements I know exactly why I am in it. I am sorry the fogen et al used your babies photo and avatar….just despicable, but here is what I believe they do not understand.,…for all the racist and ugly comments they have saturated the internet with, they do not get that LE has been tracking them since the beginning. I now believe fogen should be charged with a hate crime. I used to believe it would be reaching….no longer!

  14. Jun says:

    Okay I just saw this on my timeline but I do not know the actual authentication


    CBS News learned that includes texts Zimmerman sent after the shooting. Some of them disparage leaders of “Justice for Trayvon” rallies with language described as offensive. i believe there is so much more that we wont know till trial GZ is toast

    • Xena says:

      I remember reading that Jun, and in the same article they said that GZ had contacted Tracy Martin leaving a message with abusive language.

      • mgs710 says:

        I was just about ready to type some nasty names towards GZ after reading that, but I’ll take heed to what the professor said.

        • I am not familiar with this website. What does “sources have confirmed” mean? Their drunk neighbor next door might claim that it’s true, but not know squat. I would be more inclined to believe it, if the site is considered credible.

          Of course, I expect the information is correct and O’Mara’s complaint cannot be taken seriously when he opened the door with his bogus lawsuit.

      • Rachael says:

        But this is what I was looking for – seems to be a pattern:

        “His domestic troubles continued in October 2007, when Zimmerman called police to report that the tires of his Dodge Durango were slashed and he suspected his girlfriend’s ex-boyfriend. The man denied the claim and told officers he was so annoyed by text-message exchanges with Zimmerman that he was mulling a restraining order. None was filed, according to Seminole County records.”


        • Xena says:

          Haha! And now it’s O’Mara who gets calls from GZ every hour. Just wait until the time is close for the immunity hearing. GZ will probably harass O’Mara and West every 10 minutes.

      • Rachael says:

        Then of course there is this:

        “George Zimmerman is following the lead of prosecutors in his pending case for the murder of Trayon Martin, by requesting that certain evidence in his trial be kept under wraps. Zimmerman’s lawyer, Mark O’Mara, filed a motion last week requesting that his client’s text messages, emails and journal entries not be released to the public, until they can be reviewed by both sides.

        ***According to O’Mara release of the evidence will “adversely affect the proper administration of justice in this case, and may make it impossible to find an appropriate jury unaffected by this information.”*** ”

        Oh really? Impossible to find an appropriate jury UNAFFECTED BY THIS INFORMATION? And why, pray tell, would that be?


        Read more at http://hiphopwired.com/2012/05/28/george-zimmerman-wants-damaging-evidence-sealed-in-trayvon-martin-case/#czTgoMSq7erfTKs7.99

        • Xena says:

          GZ has one personality when he doesn’t think he’s being listened to and/or watched, and another personality when he’s just being himself. O’Mara doesn’t want the public to know the real George Zimmerman. However, his NEN call tells us it’s not the “yessir” “nosir” he would have us believe.

        • racerrodig says:

          “***According to O’Mara release of the evidence will “adversely affect the proper administration of justice in this case, and may make it impossible to find an appropriate jury unaffected by this information.”*** ”

          I’ll take a shot in the dark and say he’s referring to the text to Taaffe where he say’s he’s out to get a c**n tonight.

          I’ve been saying it for months…..the phone records will be something.

      • Jun says:

        Omara complaining about jury while he lies 24/7 all over the media to taint the jury with lies about the case?

      • ladystclaire says:

        The state of Florida released *EVERYTHING* related to Casey Anthony and, now he is making this request and I don’t think it should be granted. the media needs to fight this BS which the defense is trying to get away with here. remember how they got access to Trayvon’s school records and now this Tugboat is requesting his using the “N” word and more be sealed by the court. this is not fair and, if this is done for him, Casey Anthony ought to file a law suit against the state of Florida.

        • Xena says:

          The state of Florida released *EVERYTHING* related to Casey Anthony and, now he is making this request and I don’t think it should be granted.

          As curious as the public might be, it is common not to release phone records to the public.

          … remember how they got access to Trayvon’s school records …

          The defense was allowed to subpoena Trayvon’s school records, just as they were allowed to subpoena the social media. IDK if the school records were turned over to the defense and FB said they would fight the subpoena.

          and now this Tugboat is requesting his using the “N” word and more be sealed by the court.

          We don’t know what he said or texted to Tracy Martin, but if they were words of anger then it voids his sad, half-ass apology when he was in front of cameras.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I just paid a vist to the Treestump and someone there had been tracking BigBoi, a TM supporter, and apparently she and her circle were talking about how something big is going to break that won’t be good for the Tugboat. Could just be unsubstantiated cybertalk though.

      • Xena says:

        …and apparently she and her circle were talking about how something big is going to break that won’t be good for the Tugboat.

        Of course. O’Mara will have to break GZ’s nose, then take him for an x-ray. Then GZ will appear in court with a real broken nose that looks nothing like the photoshopped pic.

      • Rachael says:

        I saw something the other day about something big and bad gonna blow and if you sent whoever it was (they were not identified) your email, they would let you know before it happened. Obviously I didn’t do that because I don’t know who it was. I can’t remember where I saw it now.

        • Xena says:

          It was to a website. It looked as if it had just been setup. I discerned that it was not a pro-Trayvon person but a baiting Zidiot hoping to get email and IP addresses of pro-Trayvon people in order to terrorize them.

          Remember Odessa girl posting comments about something was about to blow the case wide open in a certain month? Some suspected it to be Sondra Osterman and sure enough, the Osterman’s announced the publication of their book the month that Odessa girl predicted that something big in the case was about to happen.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, LOL and the only thing wrong with that is, the fact that X-ray film has the patient’s name and date on it long before it’s loaded in the machine. I would just love for them all to get in trouble over that photo shopped photo. maybe we can sign a petition to have that photo examined by a professional in the field of photography. even if it doesn’t make it into a court of law, these crooks still need to be called out for this.

        • Xena says:

          @Xena, LOL and the only thing wrong with that is, the fact that X-ray film has the patient’s name and date on it long before it’s loaded in the machine. I would just love for them all to get in trouble over that photo shopped photo.

          Right, and GZ doesn’t have enough money to pay off the technician to change the dates. (hehehehe) All Bernie has to do is ask the officers if they gave GZ water? Was it in a bottle or a cup? Did he have problems drinking from the bottle or cup? If they witnessed any swelling or injury to his lip that should have caused him pain drinking from the bottle or cup?

    • Malisha says:

      My belief is that both sides want to hide that info., and as a result, there won’t be a trial but a plea deal. That’s why I believe O’Mara’s shenanigans are being tolerated, so a plea deal will not result in outright chaos in Florida. (I predict Fogen gets 10 years, though, even at the best; I think when he finds out that’s the best he can do, he will try to flee.)

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Malisha, a plea deal is not an option in this case and, I think it was wrong of Angela Corey to pray with these parents and speak all of the words that she knew they wanted to hear in an effort to get justice for their son and then turn into someone totally different and offer him a plea deal. George Zimmerman deserves to serve some pretty long prison time for what he did. as for him wanting the GPS removed, that tells me that he is wanting to flee the country anyway. why would he have to be able to move about the state of Florida so freely for meetings with his attorneys. as for him talking about moving some where safer, no one knows where he is now so, it looks to me like his defense team is willing to help him flee the country by filing such a motion. I hope this judge will deny this but, from what I’ve seen of her in the courtroom so far, I don’t have much faith in her.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Plead this one out and America will look very crooked in the eyes of the world who is watching. China appears to have approved this trial for their people to watch. More countries have more people watching every day.

          Worse yet for GZ is the fact that his defense team is now being discovered to be using false material in their motions, while not doing the work they should be focused on doing. Not only is that bad for the defense, but it creates a general impression that the SP has a slam dunk case. They can’t be seen to give that up for a plea bargain, without appearing to further the improprieties started by the SPD. So, for them it’s guilty or bust!

  15. mgs710 says:

    Regardless, you can see the outline of a bump, if you really look hard, on the police station photo.

  16. tonydphotog says:

    Is this photo even admissible as evidence, since it’s not the original? Didn’t this photo come from a copy on a computer, and not the actual iPhone?

    • Jun says:

      I dont think they can use it because

      1) Wagner alleged that he took it of the defendant on the night of the murder

      2) He alleged that he took it with his phone

      3) The original file from the device it was taken on of this alleged pic is not in the device

      4) It is said that it was found on a computer 3 weeks later after the murder and Wagner allege that he simply forgot it and sent it to Serino

      5) There are numerous inconsistencies in the photo, including ones that defy physics and science, so there is a high probability it is photoshopped

  17. mgs710 says:

    The side-by-side needs to be magnified to see the police station photo. There is a bump there. it’s just hard to see. Unless that photo has been altered by someone, also, I don’t think a jury will buy the altered photo theory unless there is some hard evidence–something that should have been ascertained by now.

    But, to me, Fogen looks obviously guilty. TM was protecting himself, but going against a man with a gun, he had no chance. It seems very conceivable to me that TM was enticed to attack in self-defense. At the very least, GZ had control of the situation for at for at least many, many seconds right before he pulled the trigger.

    I think he initialyl went after TM knowing that if there was a confrontation he would be able to get his shot in, and then he’d be a hero. I believe he must have really provoked TM to get such a defensive reaction from him. JMO

    • Jun says:

      The photo is altered and there is hard evidence to support it. And we agree with you, even with the foto, the defendant was still the aggressor. However, due to the chain of custody, they can’t submit the foto as evidence at the trial.

    • tonydphotog says:

      How about the mole next to his nose seems to have changed position.

      • Jun says:

        Add that to the list of all the discrepancies LMAO

        I will post a link of all the scientific and physical impossibilities where we can all post our observations of the photoshopped bloody nose photo

      • racerrodig says:

        Which color T shirt does he look better with, the gray or the
        blue ?? Since there are 2 I think the blue clashes with the red in his jacket.

      • Jun says:

        It’s good they photoshopped out all the blood coming out his ears and the rest of the 45% of the covered blood because red is not really the Fogenhats’ color LMAO

  18. ladystclaire says:

    @shannoninmiami, you are right about how the folks on TruTv behaved Friday. I really got the feeling that the person who interviewed the defense attorneys, were strictly pro defense. this is why I turned and started watching something else. they all did seem to lean in the Zimmerman corner and, that I can do without. IMO, Judge Nelson was wrong for not imposing a gag order on the defense when the state asked for one. she also granted ShelLie a continuation when it was said that, she did not believe in doing such. I’m not feeling to good about this judge. not at all!

    • Jun says:

      In all honesty, I dont think they are pro defense, as the whole world already knows what happened, it is just a matter of time, and give the defendant his fair trial and it is over and done with

      They kind of softball them because the state will never go on the media before a trial and they know the defense will so they softball them to come on and their only other option is to bring Crump on

    • Ty Flair says:

      I don’t think the picture is photoshop,this is what i think happen when he caught up to trayvon an ask trayvon what he was doing round here he shove trayvon an trayvon phone fell like dee dee said an then he grab trayvon thats why dee dee her trayvon say get off get off they made it to the ground an the witness saw trayvon trying hold him down the witness told them he was going to call the police that’s when he got a hold of trayvon wrist an got controll of trayvon trayvon began to scream he told trayvon to shut the F up pull out his gun while he is hold onto trayvon hoodie he put the gun to trayvon chest an shoot. now this is where the defeant gets the nose bleed because the gun kick back an hit him the nose the shell casing hits him on the side of the nose,thats why u see that bruising on the side of his nose because the shell casing was hot when it him look at the picture again it was so hot it made a imprint on the side of his nose. the side of his nose blister a little like i said from that hot shell casing but after four or five hour it went down an left that imprint on the side of his nose

    • It was uncomfortable watching Jean C. *interview* Omar. He kept BSing and she wasn’t coming back at him, simply correcting him about falsehoods. Why sit there and let him say GZ had a broken nose when there’s no evidence of it? why not ask him about the witness who retracted thier statement? why not ask him about in inconsistent boo boos from the nearly fatal head banging?? and then ALL day have NO ONE on to refute the things omar was saying?? that would of been easy enough.

  19. Malisha says:

    I think they should take one of those computerized facial recognition programs and plug into it the nose in the pix taken at the station house, and build the face around it, and then plug in the nose in the picture in the squad car, and build the face around it, and use as variables the real measurements of Fogen’s face and head. Then we might see something that could help educate us.

    Oh well, that’s interesting intellectually but the real issue is: a bloody nose does not prove self-defense. A BROKEN nose would not prove self-defense. O’Mara is omitting, and admitting by omission, the idea that the injuries to the back of the head amount to self-defense.

    No injury will amount to self-defense because Fogen was the aggressor. Perhaps if Florida passes a law that African American children are never allowed to defend themselves against Hispanic-White or Hispanic or White adults, then injuries on Fogen would prove self-defense. But with the law as it stands now, this is essentially a series of low-brow publicity stunts to build the boo-hoo “cheering section” for Fogen because he is going to be made to stand trial or plead.

    Oh, that “we were asked to plead him out but we refused” idea?

    HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Only if they were offered “Man-1, enhanced for a minor child, 30 years.” Otherwise, not credible.

    The prosecution is not in a position to embarrass itself now.

    • mgs710 says:

      That’s what I believe, Fogen was indeed the aggressor. He had many, many seconds there where he was obviously in control of the situation and before he viciously made his kill shot.

  20. mgs710 says:

    In one of the picture in the cruiser the lighting came from one direction. Where as, at the police station the lighting was from all directions. That eliminates shadows but also may make it harder to recognizes bumps.

    • Jun says:

      the police station photos are real and you can tell because everything is scientifically and physically correct

      the alleged photo with no chain of custody inside the police cruiser, the night of the murder, the photo was taken, where there should have been shadows on the right side of the defendant’s face, onto the cop cruisier background, and onto the jacket. The defendant is also leaning forward in the picture and there should be shadows underneath the chin onto the neck and jacket and there is none.

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      Lighting doesn’t change the size of the tip of his nose or the bridge between his eyes.

  21. mgs710 says:

    The intensity and angle of the lighting can make a big difference when it comes to recognizing contours on a face.

  22. sdunn5 says:

    Can someone tell me where in the discovery a Police Officer uses the term “Porch Monkey”?

  23. TM says:

    Professor, I certainly hope you will be able to keep this blog going. What has been heard is appearing to be true that MD has been ridding himself of all those who have encouraged, helped and supported his blog. He must have known for awhile he was going to be celebrity just by the way long time supporters have been put off his blog and hurt by his most recent actions. I’ve been very ill but still reading your great Contributions. Get well!!!

  24. Malisha says:

    Whonoze, you’ve referred to my mistrust of Corey. You’re right about that. Recently I have spent about three years research prosecutorial misconduct and I have really been quite disgusted by what I read. I don’t have any particular case from Corey’s past that makes me think she has done anything specific (my research was about the prosecutors in Harford County, Maryland, Brooklyn, New York and Arlington County, Virginia) but her position in the Marissa Alexander case was appalling. I believe, however, she was chosen by Scott to be special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin shooting case for the reason that she is a scary smart prosecutor and not one who can be intimidated. If she gets a case and decides there’s probable cause, not Fogen, not Fogen’s daddy, not any combin-ation of Fogenites or any big guns will have a chance of backing her down. Scott knew he could not come up with a political solu-tion to this case; it had to be dealt with and the Sunshine Laws had to be respected and there was no way out, because all the atten-tion was concentrated on Seminole County. between you and me, I think if he thought there was a way to finesse this thing and still give Fogen a “get out of jail free” card, he would have done it. But he wasn’t willing to risk a shockwave that might bring Florida’s SYG law into the Supreme Court and make all the other 16 states who had passed that crap lose their jollies on HIS account. Not a good idea.

    Once Corey had the case, I was sure that one or the other thing would happen: Either (a) Fogen would get charged and it would go through the normal course and the likelihood of conviction was very very high; or (b) Fogen would get charged and a deal would be cut where Corey would act like she was forced to reduce the charge in order to make sure Fogen avoided acquittal. Whether it would be (a) or (b) that would happen would depend on two things:

    1. Did Corey really want Fogen to get punished or was she doing a cosmetic job to save the SYG law and save face? or

    2. Did Corey really want to make the thing come out so it looked like the Sanford Police Department and Norman Wolfinger had really NOT done wrong, so the feds wouldn’t hurt them.

    The real problem, if Corey’s goal was #2, is that even with a massive publicity campaign, it’s going to be very VERY hard to make this come out looking like Fogen couldn’t be convicted. There’s just a giant credibility hole in the picture that would have to be painted, as a backdrop, to make that kind of public theater work.

    • Jun says:

      I think also saving the SYG was a part of it

      because when they convict the defendant

      they can easily say that hey the statute works because it does not assist criminals who want to abuse the law and it is strictly for real self defense, not for committing murder

      and I also feel it is to tone down homicide in Florida because the last thing they want to do is set a precedent by letting this idiot stalk and kill a kid and get away with it

      bodies would be dropping and the murderers let go based on BS

      however, it is not anything new… I hear it is a common theme for murderers to stage a self defense claim and has happened since the beginning of modern law

  25. Tee says:

    @ blushedbrown, I hoping the the justice department does something about this police department they seem to be incompetent, and racist. What kind of LE agency allows its officers to call other officers porch monkeys. Had these officers were not prejudging,bigoted jerks, GZ would be in prison right now awaiting trial. Had they not had in there minds that Martin was a thug about o committ a crime they would have collected the evidence properly that night. I believe nothing any of them say I wouldn’t trust them as far as I could throw one them to me they are just as guilty as GZ. I’ll keep hope alive that when Justice is served for Trayon death that some of it sprinkle down onto the SPD.

    • blushedbrown says:

      Yes, that is my hope too. I couldn’t believe what I was reading. My jaw dropped at that porch monkeys comment. I said to myself do people STILL talk like that. It boggles the mind.

      But, first and foremost I want a conviction. Then the rest may tumble down along with GZ.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Over 40 years ago, when I was a young waitress in a Midwestern state, police officers regularly gathered at the Italian restaurant I worked in. I overheard many of their conversations, unfortunately, because these were often racist, sexist, and prejudiced in other ways toward the people they dealt with on the streets. It was pretty creepy stuff and I’ve never felt comfortable with police officers ever since even though intellectually, I know there must be good ones who don’t think like this.

    • sdunn5 says:

      Greetings Tee, I posted below instead of where I should have my apologies. I read your post re: LE using the term “Porch Monkey’s”. Can you tell me where to look for this in the discovery? Thanks!

  26. Tee says:

    Gz filed motion to have ankle monitor removed & that he be allowed to leave the county without courts permission. The reaon he gives is that he is not safe there & people want to do him harm. I really could not finish reading this it started to piss me off so i signed off, These guys are really getting on my nerves. I hoping the judge soon put her foot down.

    • Tzar says:

      I really could not finish reading this it started to piss me off so i signed off, These guys are really getting on my nerves.

      if I had a quarter for every time that happened to me while reading some drivel from the defense…I’d probably have 5 or 6 bucks LOL

    • blushedbrown says:

      Did you read the Q & A from Santiago. What a smart A55!
      Skimmed through it, and the gist I get is nobody thought they had anything to charge Z with at least from Santiagos POV. Bernie ask did you read the case file? NO Did you read his statements? NO
      Did you see the reenactement? NO. The nerve of him to make an opinion and not even look at the evidence! The only one who spoke up that felt that his injuries was inconsistent with story GZ gave was Randy Smith. And everybody eyeballed him! Because he waited 2 weeks to say anything. Well I am assuming of course and JMO, maybe he did his homework and waited to see case files and evidence and felt no this guy is lying.
      What do you think?

      • racerrodig says:

        It comes down to …….Evidence – Opinion – Evidence – Opinion. Wait, how about, Rock, Paper, Scissors…..Maybe fingers even – odd..on 3…1 – 2 – 3 go !

        • blushedbrown says:

          Good one Racer!
          I noticed that he is from NY.
          Yep that’s how a New Yorker talks.

          • racerrodig says:

            It does not matter a hill of beans that any or all of the cops didn’t think there was enough to charge him. That’s not their job. If MOM thinks having this testimony as a reason for Immunity, he is what I’ve said he is. What matters is what happened factually.

          • blushedbrown says:


      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        I haven’t read that, can you tell where to find it?

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Oh, I was just at gzlegalcase.com and I didn’t see it. What is the name of the file? Sorry to be a pain.

      • Jun says:

        I read it and the funny thing is it said what I was guessing they would say

        some of the cops would say they felt there was enough to move forward, some felt there wasnt enough, and they never stated they never wanted to charge the defendant, they just felt they did not have enough to go forward

        So all of Omara’s lambasting that the police refused to charge are such lies LMAO

        Also as usual Omara tried to get hearsay, but since it is a deposition, he can do so, but the hearsay did not much help is case either LMAO

        • blushedbrown says:


          Looking through the document pretty quickly, it seems that Bernie did good on cross. Santiago language sounded was very defensive.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It’s unbelievable. If everyone in that room was as careless and uninformed as Santiago, how can SPD’s contention that there wasn’t enough evidence be taken seriously? Sheesh.

        • blushedbrown says:

          My thoughts exactly. Those were general meetings, which Bernie got out of Santiago. The meetings were not solely dedicated to the Investigation to Trayvon’s murder. It seems to me it was on a “to do ” list then lets get this done NOW list.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        That seems entirely possible to me. You’d think that Smith would have clearly stated that he had studied everything, though, and that Santiago would say so.

        Is OM deposing everyone who participated in those meetings? I feel we’re not getting a complete picture of everything said at these meetings through Santiago’s reporting.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Thank you blushedbrown. I didn’t realize that the exhibits were below and stopped reading on the page sign by O’Mara.

        That was a lot of reading. What is up with this Santiago? How would he know if Fogen should be charge or if there was enough evidence when he knew nothing about what was going on? I am sitting here shaking my head thinking that they would base an important decision on whether there is enough evidence to present to the DA for an arrest in a killing of anybody without reading reports, interviews, etc..

        MOM has nothing with that depo…nothing. Making a big stink over nothong as usual, just trying to fool potential jurors is all.

        thanks again. 🙂

    • racerrodig says:

      I have no problem with the removal of his GPS. I’ll get my chainsaw.

      • blushedbrown says:

        LOL 😆

      • whonoze says:

        You’d get his blood on you with a chainsaw, and I don’t think you want a potential foge-infection. I say flamethrower. It’s sterile, and burn treatment is really painful….

        Just kidding George! 🙂

        • racerrodig says:

          I don’t believe you’re kidding…….How about my 6″ disc grinder….I do a lot of cylinder head porting with a high speed grinder. I have very steady hands.

      • Jun says:

        LMAO He is in so much danger, yet, nothing has happened to him LMAO

        The whole world already knows the State of Florida and the Federal Government has the defendant’s ass in a vice so there is no reason for anyone to go at him, we have two separate sovereigns to do that for all of us LMAO

        Just ask the defendant to submit to testifying this in court and provide proof

        The motion will go away fairly soon LMAO

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Ironically, he just might be in more danger if he moves around FL freely. Just sayin’.

      • Jun says:


        that would be a good argument

        because instead of just Seminole County allegedly threatening the defendant, now it is all of Florida, but oops look he has no ankle bracelet and he skipped town LOL

        I think the best argument is what Nelson has done all along

        “It has been ruled, we already talked about this, now let us move on.”

        If I remember correctly, Nelson already stated that the time had passed to argue Lester’s rulings and they stand

        Personally I think Omara is trying to pull what he did to Lester by rehearing the bond evidence and then he will write the same appeal to appellate to try and get Nelson off the case but I think the appellate purposely screwed Omara by putting Nelson on because she gets things going fast and to the point

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I can see how the court might agree to let him go anywhere in FL or perhaps give him a two or three county range in order to take care of court business, but I don’t see him getting rid of that bracelet. People have to wear them for far less trouble than Tugboat has caused.

        • racerrodig says:

          Exactly. I guess he saw the TV commercial for the airline where they say “You are now free to move about the country” and he’s thinking Peru, Brazil…..maybe Argentina.

        • Xena says:

          I can see how the court might agree to let him go anywhere in FL or perhaps give him a two or three county range in order to take care of court business, but I don’t see him getting rid of that bracelet. People have to wear them for far less trouble than Tugboat has caused.

          GZ can forget about getting rid of the ankle bracelet. Does anyone remember Judge Lester’s order on allowing GZ to leave Seminole County? He stated, and I paraphrase, that if O’Mara could coordinate with the GPS folks, then he could file another motion.

          Well, evidently there has been no coordination with the techs that have to program the device for Florida Statewide, so GZ wants to get rid of the ankle bracelet so he can go where he wants without being tracked.

          That ain’t happening.

      • Jun says:

        I dont see her changing the rulings because the defendant can already see his lawyer with no issues at all already

        and they also have probable cause because of the dead body, the smoking gun, bullet casing, and the defendant’s statements and the defense is more than welcome to plead at the evidentiary hearings such as the trial or SYG if they please, which has already been offered to them

        The defendant should not be coddled just because he shows up to court and to see the officer every two days just because he has to by court order

        knowing Nelson nothing will change because it has already been ruled and all the info Omara is trying to present has already been gone over and he knows his motion is filled with lies and he is simply plotting to play games

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I wonder how many times OM will make these frivolous motions? There should be some point at which Judge Nelson gets sick and tired of it.

      • Jun says:

        Two Sides

        I feel that is the point of the motions

        Omara’s plot is to get everyone sick and tired, including the judge and then appeal to the appellate to get Nelson off, because he is trying to bait her to look at the evidence and give her spin on it and then present it to the appellate

        It is the exact same thing he did to Lester and if you read this motion compared to earlier ones, the general consensus of the motions has been exactly the same

        1) Cherry pick what to present, especially the retracted statement of witness 6

        2) Present a foto publicly which has a questionable chain of custody and then go on and lament about the alleged death beating the defendant claims

        3) State what a good pre-trial release the defendant is by saying he shows up, when the fact is he has to or he gets in trouble and caught since he has an ankle bracelet otherwise it is more trouble for the defendant

        4) Make excuses for the defendant presenting false information at the bond hearings and this time he claims it is a belief

        5) Make claims that his client is in so much danger of being hurt over and over, without producing anything to authenticate these claims, after already been caught numerous times scheming

        • Xena says:

          4) Make excuses for the defendant presenting false information at the bond hearings and this time he claims it is a belief

          You know, IMO, that is a serious mistake on O’Mara’s part. He is an attorney and should know better. Unless the finality of a judge’s order is pending appeal or been overturned by a higher court, it is carved in stone. It should never, nevernevernever ever, be presented in pleadings before another judge as “belief” when that judge’s “belief” determined the facts.

          Judge Lester’s “belief” set GZ’s bond at a million dollars. When MOM appealed the order for Judge Lester to step down, he did not appeal the bond amount. He cannot ethically now present it in a manner where he disagrees with the bond amount and facts leading to Judge Lester’s decision.

          Judge Nelson is smart and may not make any mention of it, but she will note O’Mara’s disrespect for the court.

        • racerrodig says:

          i can’t argue any of that. Maybe the New Black Panthers, all 3 of them, should send him a stretch limo for his next court appearance. That would make MOM feel the fool. They should send them take out everyday, you know, just to show “No Hard Feelings” Maybe they can tout a “Get to Know The Real NBP Party” tour like RZ Jr is on.

      • Jun says:

        I feel it is just the start of these idiotic motions because Omara has nothing

        His depositions of the cops and use them against the victims theory?

        I read the depo and it aint helping Omara

        so his conspiracy theory of nailing the client when the cops refused to charges has been put to rest now LMAO

        like good grief, see how many motions he filed for one hearing?

        None of them amount to anything

        Omara seems to just want to have something to kill time with and attempt to diverge the actual trial or SYG because he knows his client is toast

        The federal and the state want his rear end

      • Jun says:

        Xena, I agree and from Nelson’s ruling, I believe she stated the time has flown the coop and Lester’s rulings stand. Besides, the whole world pretty much agreed that the defendant schemed the court with false and manipulative information. To call it a simple belief is a material falsehood and as a lawyer he should be evidentiary sound because his constant lies just make him out to be a spin doctor.

      • Jun says:


        Gotta love Junior’s logic

        He proclaims

        “We are not racists”

        but then

        “We do not like Obama, Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Natalie Jackson, Crump…”

        I can only spot two similarities amongst the group he named he dislikes LMAO

        • racerrodig says:

          He say’s they’re not racist’s….WAIT, “We do not like Obama, Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Natalie Jackson, Crump…” aren’t these people all Black ?? You mean to say, they lied !!

    • ladystclaire says:

      I hope this judge does not give in to his wants but, with her I’m not one who has to much faith in her because, she has given them just about everything else that they have asked for. he should feel safe hiding out or taking his fat tugboat @$$ back to jail. there he will be real safe. but to perfectly honest with you, I don’t care about his safety. he should have thought about that when he pulled the trigger on a 17 yr old innocent kid.

  27. Dennis says:

    I understand that the judge decides what evidence is admissible or not, but does the judge also have the power to rule on whether it is tampered with or not? Or what that be something the jury would have to decide? Many of us are questioning whether this will be admissible.

  28. roderick2012 says:

    From Daily Kos:

    #Zimmerman Edits out “F’cking Coon” from 911 Tape He Filed with Court in lawsuit against NBC

    Can NBC have the case thrown out based on fraudulently submitted evidence?

    George Zimmerman filed a lawsuit against NBC claiming that NBC made him (George) look racist in a edited 911 tape they aired.

    The thing is, when George Zimmerman filed his Complaint with the Court, he, Zimmerman, edited out the portion of the 911 tape that George makes himself look racist when he said, “F’cking Coons.” (listen to Time Stamp 2:22)

    Also, at Time Stamp 3:20, on the tape you can hear George knocking or taping on a door and if you listen closely you can hear George say: “Keep an eye on my truck.” Who did George say that to, and why did he edit those words out of the Transcript he filed with the Court?

    Try to wrap your head around that one.

    Zimmerman files a lawsuit with the Court claiming he has suffered damages of “emotional distress” from an edited 911 tape that he claims made him him look racist — but at the same time — Zimmerman gives the Court his own edited version of same 911 tape by cutting out his own comment: “F’cking Coons”

    … wow! … Just wow!

    This is a video of the 911 tape with both audio and written transcript. At Time Stamp 2:22 George Zimmerman says, “F’cking Coons

    • Dennis says:

      You raise a good point. I do not know the legalities of profanity being inside a legal document so he may have had to do that. Perhaps Frederick can give us some insight into this question.

      • Xena says:

        I’ve seed legal pleading that when quoting, include profanity that was stated. I’ve also seen legal pleading that when quoting, use “expletive” in place of the word.

        • racerrodig says:

          Correct, been there, seen that. Since he is alleging he was made to look bad by the alteration, he will really look bad by omitting those 2 words since they are as clear as a bell. Imagine the NBC lawyers at that deposition.

      • racerrodig says:

        An obscenity does not matter. He cannot remove anything at all. At best he would have to simply note there is an obscenity.

        I testified in a civil cases in Federal & State court where I had to repeat what was said verbatim by one of the parties. I made my stance clear to the court these were not my words and in every case the Judge would say…it’s not a problem, we’ve all heard this before. Since he is going the race route, he damn well better remember everything.

      • Jun says:

        LMAO I doubt it is because of the obscenity. The idiot just thinks he can pull one over on NBC and the court when everyone and they mama has heard that tape. It was like when he thought his below $10 and Peter Pan code was intelligent.

    • racerrodig says:

      “Can NBC have the case thrown out based on fraudulently submitted evidence?

      George Zimmerman filed a lawsuit against NBC claiming that NBC made him (George) look racist in a edited 911 tape they aired.”

      I believe they can and will try. There are other factors as well the biggest being this did not force him to go in hiding. He did that a month before this was released. Add the fact that they used his own words and the meaning is not changed and…….he’s got no case.

      • Jun says:

        I learned from Xena and NBC can get it thrown out on summary judgement. They can even argue at the fact the defendant would not be able to pay their lawyer fees when they countersue for the plaintiff filing a frivolous lawsuit. I feel NBC will have a strong argument even for a summary judgement to throw out the lawsuit. I feel NBC would probably agree to go to trial, only if Beasley agrees to pay their countersuit after. I dont know how much money Omara has because he’s a liar and cant be trusted at his word. He has claimed they have $320,000 but is that altogether from the beginning, summed up, or is it just recent amounts? If there is money, the Beasley lawyers may not have taken contingency because the suit is frivolous and they likely want to get paid for lawyering for that idiot.

        • Xena says:

          He has claimed they have $320,000 but is that altogether from the beginning, summed up, or is it just recent amounts?

          It’s the total — everything since April. GZ has about $15,000 remaining in his defense fund, which is not enough to cover the cost of security, his safe-house, his GPS fees, food, and a larger sized wardrobe.

          Nothing has been said as to whether ShelLIE’s attorney is also being paid from that fund, but purportedly, GZ is also supporting her out of the same money.

          About the lawsuit, as the Professor shared on another post, they may be able to have it dismissed under failure to state a claim in which relief can be granted. Summary Judgment is another option.

          Regarding countersuits, the news agency would not countersue for their costs and legal fees. Rather, they can request the court to enter sanctions for the filing of a frivolous suit, with penalties being to pay their costs and fees.

      • sdunn5 says:

        @Xena “larger sized wardrobe”…..very very funny!

    • truthforlisa says:

      Ooooh that’s an automatic loss for GZ, not that he would win anyway. It’s clear that GZ is racist, and honestly, I don’t mind that NBC pointed it out. With FL’s Sunshine Law, I knew we’d hear the entire call anyway. It makes him look like an ass and he knows it.

    • Logi says:

      I don’t see what the problem is with the editing. At some point NEN would have asked for a description of Trayvon, and the response would’ve been Black male. So what? The racism kicks off when Fogen refers to Trayvon as a F***cin coon! Fogen knows what the line of questioning is for a NEN or 911 call when your are repoting a “suspicious” person he has done it soooo many times before!!! The question would’ve been asked eventually. He voluntereed Trayvon’s “Suspicious” behavior before being prompted! This dude is a hot mess! Send his butt to prison already!!!! UUUUGH!

  29. Thank you so much everyone for maintaining the blog today, and for your kind comments. We are following suggestions, especially with fluids. Although Fred was up only briefly for a shower, he has been unable to be up aside from that.

    Anyway, he is very much hoping to be able to return tomorrow, and again, it is very nice to have such thoughtful comments and to see that the discussion is continuing.

    Thanks again.

  30. Cindy says:

    Professor leatherman I would like to run something by you! SZ had her CCW permit revoked! she has yet to be convicted of the perjury charges against her so what else would they revoke her permit? Ostermen claims that SPD gave GZ his permit back to him and while being investigated my understanding is that even with LE they aren’t aloud to have a gun while the investigation is going on and if this is in fact true why are there not more charges filed against GZ ?

  31. whonoze says:

    More on the photo:

    From the time of it’s release in BW form in the earlier discovery:

    “The photo, taken by officer Michael Wagner and downloaded to his computer, had not been seen before; Wagner hadn’t shown it to anyone until he found out there were no other photos of Zimmerman taken at the scene, the Orlando Sentinel reported.” (Time, 5/15/2012)

    Could this possibly be rephrased as: Wagner didn’t get the photo doctored until he found out there were no other photos of Zimmerman taken at the scene to compare it to.

    And why didn’t Smith, Ayala, Mead or whoever make sure they had several photos of Zimmerman’s injuries before the paramedics attended to him? Wouldn’t that be essential evidence in any event? (Can’t put this on Serino, as GZ had been cleaned-up and shipped off to SPD before Serino arrived to take charge of the scene.)

    • jm says:

      whonoze: “Wagner didn’t get the photo doctored until he found out there were no other photos of Zimmerman taken at the scene to compare it to…… .And why didn’t Smith, Ayala, Mead or whoever make sure they had several photos of Zimmerman’s injuries before the paramedics attended to him?”

      Interesting questions. Are they incompetent or corrupt?

    • Rachael says:

      That is a very good question, about why there were no other photos taken at the scene. You would think that would just be cop 101 – common sense, ESPECIALLY if there were injuries.

      And “Wagner hadn’t shown it to anyone until he found out there were no other photos of Zimmerman taken at the scene” makes sense when rephrased such as you have.

      Kind of like GZ saying it was self-defense if no one saw.

      That whole if a tree falls in the woods thing.

  32. Malisha says:

    Mike, the Credible Hulk is fabulous — I’m in LOVE!

    Once years ago I was having lunch with a friend of mine whom I saw rarely (we lived in different cities). We were arguing about something and I said something and she responded, “You know, you make it VERY DIFFICULT to argue with you when you insist on using logic like that!”

    She was a graduate of Radcliffe. I laughed, because we were good-natured in our debating, but I remembered that sentence because sometimes folks tend to resent you slicing up an argument simply because it is logically impossible.

  33. Rachael says:

    I don’t know how to embed this – but here is Trayvon in 7-11 and you can hear him on the phone, I presume getting a call and saying hello.

    • Rachael says:

      Oh – it did it by itself.

      • jm says:

        The squirrels at the treehouse were using that video with Trayvon’s voice to “prove” that Trayvon’s voice is too deep (“like his father’s) to have been screaming on the 911 calls.

        • @JM:
          Have the idiots over there, explained the dialogue during the screaiming? The begging the pleading, the screams for Mom to help him?? The statement over and over of, “I don’t know, I don’t know ’em! I’m begging you? HELPPPPPPPP!” Why would GZ need to say any of this? Don’t matter because when the prosecution plays this tape in court, the jury will know immediately who it is and who it is NOT! Also, I take none of these idiots have heard LLMPapa’s tape where GZ demonstrates his screams for the SPD? He sounds like a YIPPING PUPPY! (I apologize in advance to all dog lovers including my own dog, Chuckie)!

          • jm says:

            The squirrels explain nothing to me, including how Chorge claims he was smothered yet managed to scream and why the screaming for the police to find him suddenly stopped after the gunshot which they explained as “shock” from firing the gun. Then I was banned.

      • Rachael says:

        My, my, my – isn’t that interesting. While it certainly does not prove who was screaming, I thought it said just the opposite of what you say they are saying. LOL

      • sdunn5 says:

        I do not understand the idea of audio in the 7-11 surveillance tape. I thought they were the bubble camera;’s we see here. I wonder where the microphone for that is in this store.

      • Rachael says:

        I don’t know that there even is one (microphone). It may be someone doing for audio what Photoshop does for photos. IDK. And it doesn’t prove anything. I should probably not even have posted it, I just found it interesting.

      • OMG! i had no idea there was audio on the tape!! i’ve only seen the silent one!! thank you so much!

        and this is the first time i’ve heard his voice besides his last screams. so heart breaking so sad.

    • Tee says:

      He doesn’t seem to be ” on something, or yep something is wrong with him,” do he!

      • racerrodig says:

        He did seem to put his change in his pocket with a certain “Thugthority” Or is it just me ?? I’d say he looks like a normal kid at the store, but we’ve been saying that from day 1

      • Jun says:

        The video certainly proves that Trayvon was never a suspicious guy (according to reasonable people anyways). He went to the store, he bought Skittles and Ice tea, and the employee at 7-11 treated him like any other customer.

      • Malisha says:

        Wait Wait — if there is audio at the 7-11, that means that it is not true that there is no example of recorded voice for Trayvon Martin. Oh. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh…

        Fogen, go get some trimmings, because your goose is cooked.

  34. Mike says:

    I take the high road with every argument involving this case, with this picture in the back of my mind.


  35. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    Here is more from the interrogation, after he shot Trayvon.
    Fogen: I was on top of him straddling him, he was face down and when he was hitting me in the face and head, it felt like he was hitting me with something in his hands, so I thought he had a weapon. I grabbed his hands and pushed them away from his body and said, “stop…just stop, don’t move.” And he was saying something like ah.. ah and cursing and I said, ”stop-don’t move” and then somebody came and they had a flashlight and I thought it was a cop and I said, I still had my gun in my hand as I was holding his hand out, and I said, “are you a cop?”, he said, “no.” and I said, he said, “I’ll call them.” and I said, “I don’t need you to call them, I already called them, they are on their way, I need you to help me restrain this guy.” And he said, “I’m calling the police, I’m already on the phone with them.” I got up off of him cause he stopped struggling and I thought that he had just like stopped struggling and then I holstered my weapon and I saw another flashlight….
    My point in this part of the interrogation is that Fogen expects people to believe that after he shot Trayvon straight in the heart, that Trayvon could really sit up and say you got me or you got it, fall backwards facedown and still be saying ah ah and cursing and struggling with Fagon? If anything possibly he cried out for his mother or father…but I doubt he was cursing and struggling with Fogen. Not to mention…Trayvon was found by the first police officer with his hands under his body and that matches the photo of Trayvon’s body. His arms were not pulled out the way Fogen says. Fogen only said that he had Trayvon’s hands pulled apart when he was on top of him was because he was afraid that the same witness saw him earlier on top holding Trayvons hands pinning him down. He knows that Trayvon had nothing in his hand if it were true that Trayvon had his hands over his nose and mouth.

    Here’s some more.
    Irwin: Where were his hands when you went to reach for your weapon?
    Fogen: One hand was going towards the gun. He took it off my mouth and I was trying to get his hands…he was suffocating me, so I was trying to get his hands off of my face, so when I felt his hand he had let go of my mouth, so I wasn’t trying to do anything again with my right hand, so I grabbed my gun and I don’t remember if he did at the same time or what the case was, but I got it to it first.
    Irwin: And then how did you come to fire upon him from that position, cause you’re laying down like this, you’re on your back and you just bring it out of its holster and straight up like this?
    Fogen: yes sir
    Irwin: You didn’t try to like push it into him or anything?
    Fogen: no
    Irwin: You just fired it, like almost from the hip?
    Fogen: I like to think I made sure that it wasn’t…cause my hand was in the way- I made sure I was past my hand cause his other hand was still on my face, so I made sure….
    Irwin: Was he that far away or was he right up on you?
    Fogen: he was like putting all of his weight on my nose and mouth trying to suffocate me, so he was creating this crevasse with his body and then he like when he slid to go for my gun, (fogen pretending to be Trayvon, letting go of the mouth with his right hand and reaching across Fogen’s body for the gun)
    Irwin: Did he go for your gun with his left hand or right hand?
    Fogen: sigh, I don’t recall…I don’t recall…which hand he used.

    First of all…had Trayvon had one hand on Fogen’s nose and the other hand on his mouth…where is Fogen’s blood on Trayvon’s hands or under his nails?? Fogen himself says that he had blood all the way up to his eyes when witness 6 came out. So, the blood didn’t come after he got up like all of those at the CTH like to say. HA Also, if Fogen was trying to get Trayvon’s hands off of his face, where are the scratches or marks on Trayvon’s hands or wrists or arms…where are the defense bruises on Fogens arms from defending himself??
    Second, if Trayvon was putting all of his weight in Fogen’s nose and mouth creating a crevasse how did Trayvon feel the gun that would be in this crevasse?? How did Trayvon use his right hand to reach across Fogen’s body for this gun that was on Fogen’s right hip on the left side of Trayvon, while still putting all of his weight into holding Fogen’s nose? Of course after Irwin realized what Fogen had said and asked him which hand Trayvon used…Fogen can’t recall… even though he just showed him Trayvon supposedly used his right hand.
    Sorry for the long post…I never write anything that long, but I need to vent when I listen to all of his lies.

    • Kate says:

      Great post. It just points out how ludicrous GZ’s statement is when you consider the DNA results. I watched the Hannity interview last night during which GZ claims that TM punched him in the face more than a dozen times. He obviously never thought his story would be questioned so intently or that the condition of TM’s body would play into the story. I’m a Nurse Practitioner who prior to specializing in Pediatrics, worked in all areas, including trauma and ER. I never saw anyone, who came in with injuries from a serious fight, whose knuckles and hands weren’t bloodied, bruised, swollen and scraped to hell after being in a fight.

      Also, after seeing the Hannity interview, it’s easy to see why BDLR thanked the defense for the same. GZ’s smiling and smirks are seen throughout. I hope as the prosecution plays the interview in the courtroom, whenever they pause the tape, they do so with GZ’s all-knowing smirk on his face clearly evident.

      Professor, I know this is off topic but could you comment on what you think might happen with Shellie Z.’s perjury case? If there is any truth to the claim that Angela Corey had no jurisdiction, couldn’t the charges be dismissed without prejudice and then refiled by the Seminole Co. prosecutor? There is no way she should get off on these as she blatantly lied while GZ said nothing, knowing she was lying. Thank you.

    • akrnc says:

      Great post! It’s quite obvious that GZ never thought his story would be questioned nor that DNA or forensic evidence would play a part in determining the truth of his story. As a Nurse Practitioner, I initially worked in the ER and trauma and often treated patients who came in after a fist fight. Without exception, when someone was in a fight, his body told the story for
      him/her and unless they never attempted to defend themselves, their hands were bloodied, bruised, scraped and/or swollen. TM’s hands showed no sign of having been in a fight, let alone having punched someone over a dozen times as GZ claimed on Hannity. I actually watched the interview for the first time last night, from beginning to end, unable to get through it prior to this. Now I know why BDLR thanked the defense for the interview. When the prosecution shows clips of it during the trial, I hope when they pause the tape, they do so at one of the many points where GZ is smirking and smiling.

      I know this isn’t pertinent to this thread, Professor, but I was hoping you’d comment on whether or not you think that Shellie Z.’s attorney is correct in her claim that Angela Corey had no jurisdiction over her. If the charges were to be dropped without prejudice, would Seminole Co. be able to refile against her? I don’t want to see her get away with this perjury claim as she blatantly lied on the stand and GZ sat there, not saying a word about all the $$ in the bank accounts. They played the Judge for a fool and I don’t want to see them get away with this. Thank you!

    • Xena says:

      One of the reasons you don’t see much comments from me concerning the questionable photo of GZ, is because the forensic evidence does not lie.

      Had Trayvon had his hands over GZ’s nose and mouth, GZ’s DNA and blood would surely be found underneath Trayvon’s fingernails. It wasn’t.

      Had Trayvon had his hands over GZ’s nose and mouth, the first thing GZ should have asked the EMT’s was if they were going to take samples for testing for Trayvon’s DNA. He did not.

      GZ has told numerous lies and we can write a 500 book showing them all but what matters in this case is that forensic evidence shall overcome GZ’s physical evidence, because his stories contradict the physical evidence.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        I was venting and think it’s always good to keep everything fresh in our minds and for new comers.

        Trayvon’s button has been on my mind latley…. how did Fogen see that button if it was so dark? Did his flashlight shine on Trayvon showing the button before he pushed or grabbed him?- That is my firm belief..that it all started with Fogen either grabbing Trayvon or shoving him. I believe he was trying to “detain” him until LE arrived. There is no way he saw it when they were wrestling in the dark.

        • blushedbrown says:

          @7:10 into gz NeN call is when he starts describing him. He also says he was @ the clubhouse. I believe he watched him at the mailboxes for a couple of minutes before he called. He was very detailed about his description, even down to his button. Its possible he had his headlights on towards the mailboxes where Trayvon was standing under the awning where the mailboxes are located talking to DD.

        • racerrodig says:

          I’ll say the phone records will answer some questions. I’ll add that someone else gave Fogen a description in advance.

        • Xena says:

          Trayvon’s button has been on my mind latley…. how did Fogen see that button if it was so dark? Did his flashlight shine on Trayvon showing the button before he pushed or grabbed him?

          There have been some great analyzes of GZ’s headlights in the clubhouse videos. I really appreciate those who have taken out time to present it. According to one such analysis, GZ made a U-turn and was facing in the direction in which Trayvon was walking towards him. (“He’s coming towards me now.”) With his headlights on Trayvon, he could then see the button and also confirm, “And he’s a black male.”

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        I can’t remember who Fogen was talking to when he mentioned the button…anybody remember? It wasn’t in the NEN call was it? He had to have been close to see that button, if it was when he was following Trayvon in his truck, it’s no wonder Trayvon got scared and ran. If it was when trayvon walked by his truck at the clubhouse it must have been very lit up there…and it is amazing that Fogen would notice such detail from someone walking by.

        • Xena says:

          It wasn’t in the NEN call was it?

          It was in his NEN call. “He’s got a button on his shirt, and he’s a black male.”

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @chrisny~laurie — gz mentioned the button during his description of martin on the NEN call. however, when being interviewed by dets. serino and singleton he claimed no memory of it.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Thanks guys…and i just listened to the NEN call earlier today. i think I’ve spent way too much time on this today and need a good movie…or bed.

      • camanokat says:

        I think he was observing TM through binoculars. Either that or Fogen of one of his buddies first spotted him near the 7-11

  36. whonoze says:

    Lonnie Starr said:

    “Trust me, you’re not going to find an expert on the planet who won’t say that photo is edited.”

    Does anyone here know anyone who would qualify as a photo-editing expert for legal purposes? I think this issue needs to be brought to Benjamin Crump’s attention somehow. He would need a ‘certified expert’ opinion, though. Corey isn’t going to look into this at all. Editing may even have been done by someone in her office, rather than at the SPD (it’s unlikely methinks, but not impossible).

    I’m sure Mr. Crump gets a ton of email about TM every day, and most of it never gets read. Does anyone know how to get his attention. (Crane: does Professor Fred have any connections via the bar association that could suffice? PS: Get well soon, Prof.) Even if we consider the evidence of photo manipulation to be less than conclusive, it’s strong enough to warrant attention from the Martin family representatives, yes?

    • I don’t think it’s our job to hire a ‘certified expert’ since we aren’t parties to this case in any form.

      And Ben Crump does take messages and emails on behalf of his clients, he’s made that quite clear. I personally had contact with him and i’m not a party, so to suggest he’s not reading most of the emails is false. He communicates with supporters all the time.

      Also, Angela Corey has also stated if anyone has any information to forward it to her which she gives her contact info. And to suggest that her office would NOT look into this evidence or any other is an insult. and incomprehensible.

      But to go further and suggest ‘editing may even have been done by someone in her office” is such a stupid comment i don’t believe it’ll do much good to acknowledge that or anything else you have to say. so i’ll leave that up to the others who have more tact.

      • whonoze says:

        You seem to have completely misunderstood every aspect of my post. Except for my distrust of Angela Corey, which I believe is shared by Malisha and others who comment here. Corey is a political ally of Tea Party governor Rick Scott. To suggest that a law and order Republican State’s Attorney would be less than eager to look into corruption in the State’s law enforcement agencies is hardly incomprehensible.

      • Malisha says:

        If there was photoshopping or editing or manipulation done, it is my guess that it had nothing to do with Wolfinger’s office or Corey’s office and that it was done by Wagner or some other party in the police department or connected with the police department. On the other hand, there didn’t have to be any photoshopping or editing to make the picture worthless as a piece of proof of alleged “self-defense.” That’s just silly. I’ve often gotten injured when I wasn’t defending myself.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      There is a page to leave mail on his legal site. I’m sure he probably reads it, but he won’t reply.

      You might try his Twitter as well.

    • truthforlisa says:

      Corey isn’t going to look into this at all. Editing may even have been done by someone in her office, rather than at the SPD (it’s unlikely methinks, but not impossible


      IMO, this is a ludicrous assumption. What good would it do Corey’s case to have edited this? At any rate, anyone who is a photographer, especially a forensic one, or a computer forensics expert could tell you that this is shopped.

  37. Jun says:

    I’ve always wondered why Omara tries to make it seem like a good thing that the defendant show up to his court appearances and appearances with his officer he has to see every 2 days. He is court ordered and has to go. He also cant go anywhere because of his ankle bracelet and they can track him and they are also alerted when he tries to jump if he cuts it. The bail bondsman are not likely gonna want to lose a million dollars if the defendant jumps it and the defendant would get in more trouble if he takes off. I do not know why the court should give him a gold star for doing what he is supposed to do and has to do.

    Is it just me, or did Omara just basically copy and paste the same motion he used for the appellate court when he wanted to use to recuse Lester in this modify bond motion?

    His motions are becoming copy and paste, and I am thinking Nelson will just say it has already been ruled on, lets move on, we need to get the trial underway

    Its been close to 5 or 6 months and yet, nothing has happened to the defendant

    IMO he wants to retry the bond order so they can go back to the exact same arguments that have been gone over and then pull the same try and recuse stunt just because the whole world knows he is a liar and blah blah blah

    What is up with the appellate court anyways? Are we really supposed to coddle people for lying and scheming the court? Or maybe the appellate just screwed them anyways by bringing Nelson in on purpose LMAO

    • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

      I read the motions lastnight..been trying to play catch up after being busy for a few days. The motions are ridiculous if you as me. It’s like these recent motions were made to help his law suit against NBC instead of this criminal case. Revisiting Lester’s motion on restricton of his bond…really? I think Omara is doing more to try and get money than he is defending his client, but I also think that Fogen is ok with it because he thinks he is going to be able to lie his way out of this and end up rich.

  38. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    I know you all have listened to the interrogation and know all of this, but i thought I’d post anyhow.

    I’d like to start with NEN call. This is what Fogen is telling the detective doing the interrogation, he says the NEN dispatcher asks, “What street are you on” and “we need to know what house you are in front of” and “we need to know what exact address you’re at” and “we need to know what street you’re on or what address you’re at or where you’re at”
    These are the only thing the dispatcher ever asks about any locations, “is it 1111 or 111?’, “he’s near the clubhouse?’, “which way is he running?”, “which enterance is that, that he’s heading towards?”, Where are you going to meet with them at?’, “what address are you parked in front of?”(he asked that at the end of the NEN call well after he was out of his truck), “do you live in the area? What is your apartment number?”, and Do you want to meet with them right near the mailboxes then?'” Those are the only questions regarding loacations. Obviously, Fogen didn’t know that NON emergency calls were taped.

    He also tells the detective that he couldn’t see the witness that came to his door asking whats going on(witness 6) because he had blood in his eyes. He also says that he couldn’t see the policeman coming at him with the flashlight because he had blood all over his face and his eyes and it was dark where he was at. He then says that he was handcuffed and was in back of patrol car when paramedics came to him, after they went to check on Trayvon, they poured peroxide on the back of his head and felt his nose. I’m assuming that this infamous picture was taken around that time…so where in the heck is all the blood that was all over his face and EYES??? h e did not say they cleaned his face up and even if they did, we would see redness from the wiped blloodand there isn’t any! Ugh . So, much more I want to point out , but I need a break and for some reason I can’t correct mispelled words without it deleting my whole sentence.

    Fell better soon Professor!

    • Jun says:

      I think it is one of the reasons Omara is trying all these silly motions because he knows his lies will not hold up in court

      because even his photoshopped picture does not support his story

      If you read his motions, and his in court actions, he is trying to avoid the trial and the SYG hearing

    • hmmmmmmmm, very good point about those flat out lies that the 331 asked him all that address crap. when it’s all recorded. i remember earlier on when peeps where pointing out those lies, Omar said that GZ was confused by what the NEN was asking him for.
      ya know, cas GZ is just a young, confused, traumatized, just trying to help out, kinda guy.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Personally, I think Tugboat had rain in his eyes. Perhaps he had a little blood dribbling into one eye from the tiny cut on the bridge of his nose.

      He’s full of beans.

    • Logi says:

      I’ve thought about the blood in his eyes thing but couldn’t he just say he THOUGHT it was blood but it must have been rain?

  39. whonoze says:


    Ok, if you think it would have been easy to Photoshop that bloody nose pic, or you think your kid could do better, show us how. Take image #3 from the Imgur album I posted above and use your (or a friend or relative’s) wizardry to take it into Photoshop, Gimp, or whatever, and make the nose look as much like image #4 as possible (forget the blood on the lips for now). And do it without leaving obvious traces at the pixel level, so that it looks more-or-less as good blown up as does #4. Save your work at each significant step, so you can document how you did it.

    Obviously, if somebody else can do a similar job on a documented original, that makes for a pretty good argument that someone inside SDP FDLE or SAO could have done it to the Wagner photo. And if no-one CAN do a similar editing job, that weakens the argument for a cover-up conspiracy.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Who was going to get back to us – the person who knew someone working with a class of kids on this challenge?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The Madonna photoshop examples are great. It just isn’t that hard to alter a photo if you have a good app and the skills.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Unfortunately there are too many variable for anyone to be able to duplicate someone else’s work, most especially with photoshop.

      Also, because the pixel blocks in the altered photo aren’t mangled, that means that this is a picture taken of a picture. Since that’s the only way to correct the pixel block structure.

      First step is, check the EXIF data of the original and secondary photos. But, remember, there is software that allows one to modify this data.

      An examination of the hex file, for the pictures I have seen, shows only that it’s a Microsoft program that created the file. So, if the photo was photoshopped with adobe, taking a picture of that picture, would remove all the hex identification data.

      But, we all know that a structural change to the nose bridge, cannot be repaired without surgery. So, if the bridge of GZ’s nose looked like that, on that day, it should still look like that today.
      Because it doesn’t, the picture is altered.

  40. colin black says:

    Sharon Can MOM dump GZ? Or is he stuck with him for the duration?..He is stuck with him for the duration..He cant resign thanks to a fairly new law legislated in Florida..If an attorney comes on board a case bro bono…An thats exactly what M O M Stated when he first took on the acused as a client..PRO BONO he said remember he allegedlly didnt know about any monies in any peter pan pay pal acount..Now this new law says that any atttorney whom takes on a client voulantry bro bono…Cannot withdraw from said case/client for ANY REASON Least of all lack of financeall return…He keeps banging on about not being paid but he entered pro bona wich is a lawerly form of a charitbile act.At least its meant to be.Many use it to grab a high profile famous case.An think they will live high of the hog via fame fortune an fairy dust.Off course this doesnt stop the defendant fireing his attorney.Wich with gz is a very strong possability.Like the day before or the morning of the trial comences as a delaying tactic..He stans up infront of J Nelson for his last stand on the stand…Your Honour I dont want Mr O Mara defending me theres something up with him.Your Hounor I dont know what his deal is.Ive told him an Mr West lots of times an lots of differnt versions off what happened that dark stormy rainy night .An they just stare at me .Start laughing an getting other people from the law office to come check me out an my latest remembrance.So your Hounor I am sincerly hope that you will get it an grant my request for either a 3 year continuance so I can graduate law school an defend myself.Or grant a mistrial on the basis of me being innocent an the victim of a raceial conspiricy.

  41. colin black says:

    Sometimes I think the ole universe is takeing the piss.Here we are heading into Christmas the season of gooodwill to all..An I read an article about some dumbkoff named Patridge going loco an literly blowing someones head off over a petty argument..I swear If I find out tomorrow that someone named Peartree has gone postal..Im giveing up on news especialy true crime…..

  42. Sharon says:

    Can MOM dump GZ? Or is he stuck with him for the duration?

    • Jun says:

      To be honest, I do not respect Omara and he is just as sleezy as the defendant. They deserve each other and were meant for each other. Hopefully karma teaches him the way one day.

    • Rachael says:

      As far as I know, he is in too deep now to “dump” him. If he is aware of ongoing criminal activity on the part of his client, he can approach the judge and the judge would understand and rule on it, but it would not be ethical at this point because it would damage GZ. And not questionably like NBC, but really now, think about it. So no, ethically he is kinda stuck with him.

      Here is a little something about it:


      • jm says:

        Rachael: …… “So no, ethically he is kinda stuck with him.”

        Huh? Did you see In Session interview with MOM? He has no more ethics than Chorge and can beat Chorge at his lying game.

        Only problem with MOM’s lying game is his face and neck become extremely flushed and starts to sweat. But the lies are just as ugly and hateful as Chorge’s

        Ethics are obviously not a concern for MOM. Just show him a camera and $$$$$ and he’ll say whatever it takes to ensure he wins freedom for his lying client.

        Chorge, MOM and ShelLIE belong together.

      • Rachael says:

        jm, LOL – while I agree with you, are you saying that ethics aside, you think O’Mara would just dump him and let him hand out to dry, knowing he could lose his license over an ethics violation?

        Actually, he can withdraw under these conditions:

        An attorney may voluntarily terminate the attorney-client relationship at any time and without reason, ***if this will not have a material adverse effect on the interests of the client.***

        ***Even if the withdrawal will be adverse to the client the attorney may still withdraw for a number of reasons:***

        1.The client is engaged in illegal or fraudulent activity.
        2.The client fails to pay fees as agreed.
        3.The financial burden on the attorney of continuing the representation is too great.
        4.The client refuses to follow the advice of counsel, or engages in acts relating to the representation without informing the attorney or seeking the attorney’s advice.
        5.The attorney is engaged with co-counsel of the client’s choosing, and is unable to work with that co-counsel.

        I just don’t see it happening. Like you say, because of his own problem with *ethics,* there is no way he would withdraw at this time.

        • jm says:

          Rachael: “I just don’t see it happening. Like you say, because of his own problem with *ethics,* there is no way he would withdraw at this time.”

          As long as the cameras keep rolling, interviews and press conferences to make a name for himself, there is money rolling in (MOM was begging again during the interview for donations for Chorge/MOM) and the good chance there is a book, “The REAL Chorge Zzzzimerman” MOM can write, there is no reason MOM would withdraw.

          “How To Gain Fame And Fortune Defending A Racist Killer For Dummies” is another how-to book MOM could write.

          The possibilities for an unethical attorney like MOM are endless.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          No, no, no… This is wonderful! GZ has a lawyer who turns bright red and sweats when he lies. It won’t take the jury but an hour or two to figure this out. MOM will have to change clothes several times each day. The jury should enjoy watching MOM turn red then back, then red again, with sweat trickling down all day. Talk about a match made in heaven. LOL

  43. colin black says:

    Theres homacide now theres zimmercide ..the ole probale undisputed broken nose defence,, http://www.pressherald.com/news/Waterville-shooting-leaves-1-man-dead-.html

  44. Rachael says:

    And here is a photo with a side view of GZ nose at the station to compare:


  45. Rachael says:

    I don’t know if this helps, but I found a tutorial about how to photoshop a bloody nose:


  46. colin black says:

    Have some chiken soup cream of chiken with a sprinkling of cellery an some crusty lightly buttered bread .That will av you up an at em..Get well soon.

  47. mcave77 says:

    I’m so sorry to hear that…I hope he feels better soon.

    Has everyone seen the complete deposition between O’mara and Santiago and BDLR and Santiago. Is this new?:

    Click to access santiagodeposition.pdf

    • Jun says:

      I did not read the whole thing but it was pretty much what I figured he would say

      That it was not that they did not want to file charges, they just felt there may not be enough

      A few felt there was enough to file and went forward

      Pretty uneventful if that is an authentic deposition transcript as I cant say due to the fact Jeralyn always spins things

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I find it really hard to take seriously – it’s so incredibly inarticulate. Plus, these folks weren’t even considering Tugboat’s statement. This deposition makes SPD look really bad, in my opinion.

    • Xena says:

      Did you notice the deposition released starts on page 43?

      • mcave77 says:

        I noticed part of it was missing..I assumed it was about TM’s phone and they couldn’t…idk..I did not realize that 42 pages were missing though..

        • Xena says:

          It started off strange and I immediately looked at the page number.

          It was my understanding that transcripts of depositions were not to be released to the public. I wonder if Bernie knows about this?

  48. Hello everyone,

    Fred became ill last night and remains sick today. That is why he is absent at the moment. As soon as he is well enough, hopefully later on today, he will post a thread.

    We encourage everyone to continue the discussions, and we thank you so much for your patience.

    • blushedbrown says:

      So sorry to hear about Fred. I hope he gets better real soon. Tell him we are flying straight and you have everything under control.
      Get well soon Fred!!!

      • He is very glad to hear that, thank you. I know this is hard for him- being away, he has not been sick in years.

        • blushedbrown says:

          Plenty of rest, lots of liquids, and Jun’s chicken soup!

          • He has managed to make his way to the shower, so there’s hope.

          • blushedbrown says:

            What I do with my old man when he gets sick which is rare and he finally gets to go shower, is scrub him down, get all those nasty germs off of him. Then I proceed to take those germy sheets and replaced them with nice clean ones, feed him soup, water and orange juice. Tuck him back in and get some more rest. He reawakens feeling much much better after all of that TLC.

            Hope this helps!!

    • oh, yes, i’m sorry to hear that too. thinking it might be the cold or flu, dehydration is something to consider, so drink drink drink. like 3-4 liters water (if he has the energy). my mom made us take VitC all day long. thousands of mgs though out the day: every time you go potty, 4000-6000mg. every time you eat something; 4000-6000 mg. every time you talk for 5 mins, 4000-6k mg… any type of exertion, take more. you can’t OD.
      too bad we can’t have vit C intravenously pumped in all day. they do that at holistic healing and some natural doctor’s offices..

      @ C-S, not trying to stick my nose in yours/his business :), but just in case you guys haven’t heard about that kinda treatment, i thought i’d mention it. B/C if there’s one thing i can’t stand, it’s being in the least bit ill. it’s THE WORST!!

      • No problem, thank you for this. We are going to try to get some Ginger Ale.

        • jm says:

          I was going to suggest ginger ale, specifically Vernor’s. Last time I was sick, it was the only thing I could imagine drinking. Graduated to soda crackers for solid food. My grandmother gave us jello when we were kids too.

          Do you think Professor ate something that disagreed with him or is it flu?

        • Xena says:

          Here’s sending positive and good thoughts your way for the Professor’s quick recovery. If you think he ate something bad, Milk Thistle extract is good. It naturally cleanses the liver.

          If the flu, get a yellow onion, cut it at the top (not root) to peel it. Place it on something disposal (such as a paper plate) and place it close to where he is sitting and/or sleeping. The onion catches germs and viruses in the air. You should see it turn dark after awhile, in which you then throw it away and replace. Ever hear the old saying not to eat onions that have been left out because they have “fever” in them?

      • cielo62 says:

        Actually water is NOT good for dehydration. You lose minerals like salt and potassium. Better to drink Smart Water or Gatorade as those help replenish more than just lost fluids.

        Sent from my iPod

    • cielo62 says:

      Send our wishes for a thorough and speedy recovery!

      Sent from my iPod

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Lots of liquids, Vitamin C, and Crane-Station XOXO!

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Get Well Soon Proffessor.

    • Tzar says:

      Please tell the good professor to get well soon as we miss his voice.

    • Tee says:

      Get well soon professor. Lots of clear liquids i really like apple juice for patients sipped not gulped it tends to even the stomach right out & try crackers they really help settle the stomach. Don’t
      eat then drink you will get that nausea feeling all over again. I hope that you feel better soon.

      • Chicken soup for breakfast, yay! He is reviewing the comments and will be going onto the site here pretty soon.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          glad to hear the professor is up and about, not to mention able to eat. my best wishes for a rapid recovery. i know he is in good hands.

        • jm says:

          Great! Maybe he should wait awhile though till he can digest his chicken soup. Whenever I read about Chorge and MOM I feel nauseated. .

          • Lord, he’s trying, but dang. He ate, showered, typed a few comments, and then fell back onto the bed.

          • Xena says:

            Not trying to be his doctor but if the Professor thinks it’s food poisoning, he should take Milk Thistle extract. It’s in the vitamin section of drug and department stores.

            Physicians are now using an IV form of Milk Thistle on an experimental basis — not yet FDA approved, but it’s sold as a vitamin supplement and has been for decades.

            If he still has his gall bladder, it might not be food poisoning but a gall bladder attack. If he ate anything fried, pork, or drank a dark soft drink before becoming sick, that may be the key. If he were feeling better but ate pork, fried food, or something with high fat content, that would aggravate gall stones again. Gall bladder attacks last for about 12 hours and there is nothing that can be done other than pain medication. If this seems likely, the Professor should get to the ER or a doctor ASAP.

          • Thank you, Xena. We are not used to eating anything fried or deep fried at all, and this meal was definitely deep and double-fried! So, good information here.

            Fred is a person who simply never goes to the doctor for pains or physical sickness. He has been once in the past 12 1/2 years and prior to that he had not been to a doctor since the ’60s. That said, I think he is on the mend, and he is looking at every suggestion here. We will look for milk thistle tomorrow if things don’t improve, and thank you.

          • Xena says:

            Oh Crane-Station — don’t I know about husbands who don’t like going to the doctor.

            If the onset of the problem may have been fried foods, then he shouldn’t have soup unless it’s low fat.

            Milk Thistle is a liver cleanser. Burdock Root is also a good supplement because it’s a blood cleanser. With so many preservatives in our food these days, they both make good supplements.

            Here’s sending good, positive thoughts to you and the Professor.

          • racerrodig says:

            I will go on record here and defend all husbands with our unspoken mantra. “You can’t hurt steel” And that’s why the doctor is “The Last Resort”

          • Xena says:

            I will go on record here and defend all husbands with our unspoken mantra. “You can’t hurt steel” And that’s why the doctor is “The Last Resort”

            LOL! Is that cold rolled or heat rolled steel? 🙂

          • blushedbrown says:

            I think Racer is REINFORCED steel. Hahaha

          • racerrodig says:

            Make that Case Hardened Steel…..you see my stance with the Zidiots.

          • racerrodig says:

            Case Hardened Steel

          • fauxmccoy says:

            that must explain why my husband’s internet name is “Rusty Rebar”

          • racerrodig says:

            Well, there ya go !!

          • blushedbrown says:

            bwa hahahah
            Faux you crack me up, seriously though, you really cracked me up!

          • fauxmccoy says:

            what can i say? it’s kind of my role in this world and luckily i found my partner in crime, one Rusty Rebar. we raise havoc in wide swaths across the interwebz.

          • blushedbrown says:

            I say that’s a damn good team, tear it UP!

          • Thanks for your concern and your suggestion.

            I had gall stones many years ago and they were extremely painful. I don’t have those symptoms.

            I’m pretty sure it’s food poisoning from some tartar sauce that I ate.

            I’m well along the road to recovery with my appetite returning.

            Just very tired.

          • Xena says:

            Sending good and positive energy your way.

          • cielo62 says:

            Don’t forget the Gatorade or Smart Water to replenish those crucial minerals!

            Sent from my iPod

  49. shyloh says:

    We are responsible for the choices we make and the acts we commit.

    We should never demonize or taunt anyone and that includes the pathetic defendant.

    Sorry, I had to laugh at this statement!!! “PATHETIC” CUTE!!!

  50. Jun says:

    I have another theory

    West is a plea deal type of lawyer, considering his record

    I feel West may have put across a plea deal idea to the defendant Fogenhats

    But Fogenhats continued his persistence and onslaught of lies as if they were truths and insisted that they were truths in the face of evidence and the contrary

    So West just played along

    I believe West deep down wants his bread and butter and that is to plea deal LMAO

  51. colin black says:

    P S re above…Clint Eastwoods…Make my day….Was from Dirty Harry initialy I beleive…….

  52. colin black says:

    M G S GZ probably pushed him, some how egged him on so TM had to defend himself, gave him a clear path to his schnoz. That would be the best way to get away with murder. The self-inflicted would scenario wouldn’t be necessary. When he confronted TM he probably was thinking like Clint Eastwood famously said in the movie Sudden Impact, “make my day.” That’s why he showed no remorse. He wanted to kill someone whom he considered to be a criminal….Trayvon never laid a finger on him let alone punched him…People shed skin all the time all over the body surface .Today D N A touch D N A can be found just by someone handling something or brushing past someone or something..If Trayvon had punched gz there would have been a two way transfer of D N A..Trayvons knuckles to gz nose.An vice versa gz skin cells to Trayvons knuckles.Forgett about blood an saliva an snot wich also have been present .There woulld have been significant skin cell transfer.Now as L E allowed gz to freshen up wash his face ect thats potential lack of evidence lost.How ever there was NONE of gz dna present on Trayvons hands wich proves beyond a shadow of a doubt he didnt punch gz..Unless he is suddenly going to remember he had boixing gloves on wich someone must have taken of with as a souvinear because I am a cause celibre more important than 9 11 in the anulls of American History,,,Yeah thats it someone stole the boxing gloves…..P S ..You can use that one george…….

    • gblock says:

      While I’m not sure, I think it is possible that Trayvon could have butted against GZ (trying to escape) with maybe his head or shoulder after GZ had grabbed him.

  53. Jun says:

    In case the facebook doesnt work

    The photo on the right is an authenticated photo of the defendant in the Trayvon Martin Murder Case, taken by police at the SPD in Florida station at around mid
    night on Feb 27, 2012.

    The photo on the left is a photo that has not been authenticated and is alleged to have been taken by Officer Wagner with his cellphone, and he turned it in 3 or 4 weeks after the murder of Trayvon Martin on Feb 26, 2012. Officer Wagner has claimed he forgot about the photo on his cell phone and he turned it in later on. The device he took the picture with, the original file alleged to be within it, is not available, of the photo on the left. The chain of custody is questionable, and IMO it is photoshopped and doctored and will likely not admissible in the trial against the defendant.

    1.) If you compare the photo on the right (the authentic photo of the defendant) the width of his head has been doctored in the photo on the left.

    2.) Also you will notice the chin on the left photograph is a lot more pointy and they thinned out his jawline. The defendant’s head is actually a lot more round and he was 200 pounds the night he murdered Trayvon Martin.

    3.) If you look at the edges of the head on the left, they applied a photoshop shadow to the head.

    4.) On the nose area, the person who doctored the photo, also applied a photo shop smear and coloring of the nose as the nose has a strange skin tone compared with the face

    5.) The lips are also vastly different in both photographs

    6.) The nose was not put on properly in the photo on the left and you can see that the ridge on the nose on the left has been moved to the right of the defendant’s face in the doctored photograph

    7.) The blood on the nose is attached with the blood on the mustache, as if it was 2 dimensional

    Officer Wagner will likely not want this submitted into evidence and ask for a plea deal because this is tampering with evidence in a murder trial and that makes the tampering a more aggravating circumstance.

    • Rachael says:

      It makes me think of a Mr. Potato Head nose, just kind of stuck on there. But why do you say Officer Wagner will ask for a plea? Has he been chsrged with anything, or do you mean if or when he is?

      • Jun says:

        Officer Wagner’s foto and it is his allegation that he took this photo the night of the incident like 14 minutes after the murder

        Since the photo is allege to have come from him, he is gonna get in trouble

        But I think either the photo will not be allowed into evidence at trial because it is questionable

        or Wagner can fess up to what happened with this photo, since he claimed he took it, and maybe plea a deal where he will not get into trouble

        if he did tamper with this foto

        • jm says:

          Thanks for the comparison. I wonder if the face was purposefully thinned down to make Chorge look less hefty/bulky and possibly unable to hold his own in a fight.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The charge against him will be on the account of mishandling evidence in a murder case, that has got to be a very serious departmental charge, which, if they consider it to be serious enough, they can dismiss him and withdraw his pension.
          Obviously the prosecutors department and the FDLE will have some input as to how serious a charge it should be and in light of a federal investigation into LE misconduct, it should be seen as very serious indeed.

      • Jun says:

        I believe it was to make him seem less threatening because if you look at the pic on the right, the one that has been authenticated to have been taken by police, he looks menacing, while the one that looks photoshopped, he looks less threatening

      • Malisha says:

        I don’t think Wagner will be charged with anything by FDLE because I don’t think the picture will get into evidence and if it does not, then any tampering with the picture will not be material and will not amount to a crime under Florida law.

        On the other hand, the FBI might really be interested in what Wagner did if they are doing a valid investigation of the SPD. We cannot know and probably will NEVER know if there is validity to the FBI investigation because they control information. Information is power. And we do not control it.

        We just have to keep analyzing it and keep saying what we conclude, because ultimately, there IS value to real knowledge.

      • Jun says:

        I don’t feel he will be charged either

        I honestly feel the state will just ask it to be suppressed due to the chain of custody and they will also do what we did here and point out the doctor in the photos at a pre trial hearing

      • racerrodig says:

        Ge. look at the blue T shirt in the Wagner pic and the gray T shirt in the real pic. Or is that just me.

        Why don’t we have a “Find the discrepancies” contest.

      • Jun says:

        LMAO We should do a contest like that and then send our findings to a news station and the state or Crump

    • whonoze says:

      Four pictures of GZ’s nose.

      1. At SPD. Shows abrasion at site of swelling. If inflammation was caused by an abrasion to the skin, rather an injury to the nose structure, would it be more likely to recede after a few hours?

      2. At SPD. A straight-on image where the bridge of his nose looks the widest. It also shows what looks to me like a little bit of remaining inflammation at the site of the abrasion.

      3. At SPD, but from a different angle, under different lighting, and appearing to be a shorter focal length. The nose bridge doesn’t look so wide here, but it’s symmetrical.

      4. Image of the photo from Ofc. Wagner’s cell phone, as released in recent discovery. Facial symmetry looks odd.

      5. #4, with approximate color correction.

      6. #4, with approximate correction of aspect ratio, as well as approximate color correction.

      NOTES: As I was reminded, scaling an image in Photoshop recreates the pixels via an interpolation algorithm. The ‘Wagner’ image is 650 × 870, which is not the native resolution of any image sensor I know of, which means the photo was most likely either cropped or scaled. If it was scaled, it can be very difficult to tell what is a Photoshop editing artifact, and what is a scaling artifact. Having the full-resolution and/or full-frame image as it came off the cell phone would be necessary, I think, for a definitive analysis. I would assume the SPD has that, or did at one point. Perhaps it has ‘accidentally’ been deleted?

      I would like to know the provenance, or ‘chain of custody’, of this photo. HOW was it transferred from his cell phone to a computer? WHO did the transfer? WHO processed the file, preparing the version that was released in discovery? WHAT was done, and HOW, in that processing, using what software?

      (Do I think the SPD or the SAO will answer any of these questions? No I don’t)

      • Jun says:

        Another observation

        In the photo that looks photoshopped and I believe it is

        How come there is no shadow, underneath the chin, onto the neck at all?

      • Tzar says:

        take the original pic from the defense website
        note that although the face appears narrower that

        -the nose has the same or larger relative width when compared to the pics from the PD

        -The bridge of the nose remains relatively narrower to the rest of available landmark or calibrated widths no matter who much you widen the aspect ratio when compared to the PD pics.

        this was not a professional photoshop job in my opinion

      • Tzar says:

        I hope grahase will give his professional opinion on your analysis

      • Jun says:

        Also, consider the angle of the face and how the pic was taken…

        The shadow should be appearing on the right side of the face of the defendant and there is nothing there!

      • tonydphotog says:

        Where did his right ear go?

        • jm says:

          Chorge’s head looks like it is angled strange in relation to his neck and the head looks too big for his neck to support. It almost looks like the head shot has been altered from another picture and then moved onto the Chorge’s body shot in the police cruiser. One thing for sure, Chorge does not look mentally traumatized minutes after taking another human’s life with maybe even a little smile/smirk trying to get through.

      • tonydphotog says:

        It looks like they copy and pasted the lower part of the nose, moved it down some, and then tried to make it look real. I swear I see 2 noses.

      • Jun says:

        I am now absolutely convinced this photo is doctored

        the defendant’s face is turned slightly to the right and the pic taken roughly str8 on


        there is no shadow on the right side of his face, at all!

        Not on the jacket, not on the squad car


        That is not scientifically possible considering the angle of the pic and the head

        It was definitely cut and pasted on

        Look around the whole head, you can see where it was photoshopped out and pasted in this pic

      • Malisha says:

        Tonydphotog asks, “Where did his right ear go?”

        I have consulted my tarot cards and my pendulum, my ouji board and two gypsies, and now I have an answer:

        There was a conflict between Fogen’s left ear and his right ear. The trip between the two was very very short because there was so little between them, and as a result, they often argued. You know how it is. This particular night, a sound came into the right ear saying: “Get off me, Get off!” and the left ear insisted that it heard, “You’re gonna die tonight, MF.” By the time both ears were in the squad car, the right ear was so disgusted and dismayed that it just packed up and left. Before going, it whispered, “I’m not gonna stand here on the side of his head and listen to THIS CHIT!”

        • jm says:

          MOM is going to hold a press conference to explain the absence of Chorge’s right ear. He is claiming thuggish Trayvon Martin went all Mike Tyson on poor Chorge and bit his right ear off. If you would like to donate to ear reconstruction for poor Chorge and hate black teens, please contact MOM. As a special offer, MOM will send you an autographed thank you card.

      • Jun says:

        I believe the right ear, fell into the defendant’s empty head, but I do not have the forensics to back it up, so I am using Omara investigative tactics for my conclusion

      • tonydphotog says:

        Malisha – too funny!!!

        I’m going to play with it in photoshop, and see if I can make it look normal. I’m almost 100% certain that the “liquify” filter was used to make the lips, and nose, look swollen.

      • whonoze says:

        His head is turned slightly to his right, or our left looking at it. So the highlight is on his left, our right. The shadows from the nose are on the correct side. The question is, are they the right size and shape. When you use ‘right’ and ‘left’ please be sure to indicate whether you mean HIS right or left (‘stage right’ or ‘stage left’), or the right or left sides of the photo (‘camera right’ or ‘camera left’).

        His head looking too big to be supported by his neck is purely a by product of the lens focal length, the camera angle, and the camera-to-subject distance. No issues there.

      • Jun says:

        If a camera is pointed straight at a person and their head is slightly turned to their right (the defendant in this case), there should be a shadow on the right side of the defendant’s face, as well as onto the jacket

        I even tested it myself with a flash camera in the dark a few times and there was a shadow everytime on the right side of my face going onto my chest and neck and into the background

        There is none in the defendant’s purported photo of his alleged injuries, the photo which has no chain of custody, so therefore, it is photoshopped

      • Jun says:

        I was actually speaking of the right side of the face

        Considering the way the defendant is facing the camera, there should be a shadow on the right side of the defendant’s face due to the physics of light and objects. There should be a shadow on the right side of the defendant’s face and it should be relegating onto the side of his face, onto the vehicle and on his clothing and body yet there is none. You can tell it is a definite photoshop because of that. There should also be some shadows from the chin onto the neck and there is none.

      • whonoze says:

        Another indication of editing: the wound on the bridge of his nose.

        In the station pics it’s on the cam-left side of the front of his nose. But you can clearly see more nose falling off farther cam-left.

        In the bloody pic, the wound appears to be all the way on the cam-left side of the nose, and there is no space between it and the shadow line of the eye socket.

        This would seem to indicate that the cam-left side of the nose was partially removed, and the eye socket shadow extended toward cam-right.

        I think this is why the image looks so unsettlingly asymmetrical: the nose bridge has been narrowed, but only on the cam-left side.

      • thejbmission says:

        Great comment. I’d like know the chain of custody as well. I’d also like to know why the picture of the back of GZ’s head was released early on and the frontal view was not. There has to be a reason for this.
        In the recent doc dump, there’s a statement to the FBI from an “unknown witness” (the name & info is redacted) The statement seems to come from an astute observer who works for SPD. This person says that there’s an obvious “good ole boy” mentality in the police dept. This person is listed as a witness so I suspect we’ll hear from he/she at trial.
        If what I’m thinking is right, I wonder if Wagner is one of the “good ole boys” and he thought that GZ’s picture wasn’t convincing enough so he had it doctored. Just a thought but I definitely think the State will go in this direction at trial.
        Can’t wait!! 😎

      • truthforlisa says:

        Jun says:
        December 9, 2012 at 10:37 am
        Also, consider the angle of the face and how the pic was taken…

        The shadow should be appearing on the right side of the face of the defendant and there is nothing there!


        I get what you’re saying, but the photo was taken at such a close proximity that there really wouldn’t be much in the way of shadows anyway. Now, if the camera person had stepped to the right (our right) just a smidge more, then we would be seeing more shadow of the nose.

      • Jun says:

        I have experimented myself with my camera and there was a shadow onto the right side of my face as well as under my chin

    • racerrodig says:

      Not to mention 2 different color T shirts.

  54. pat deadder says:

    I’m not understanding why gz’s lawyer is allowed to go on tv and say things that aren’t true.Is this legal in the U.S.Do you think he could have been threatened by someone.I know I’m sounding a little paranoid but I don’t understand why this is legal.

    • Rachael says:

      Because they don’t want the case tried in the media. That means they can go on TV, the internet, anywhere and say whatever they want but no one else is allowed to comment on it or question it or say anything against the case.

    • Malisha says:

      He’s not under oath when he’s on TV.
      And his lies do not count, since he is not giving evidence; he was not there when Fogen killed Trayvon Martin.

      • Erica says:

        What if all jurors don’t agree? It’s a mistrial right? How soon would the state re file those charges and will forgen be given his passport back in the injustice of a mistrial . But I don’t worry if it is, I guess the Feds will be waiting

    • truthforlisa says:

      They want to get to as many potential jury members as humanly possible, IMO, this way they can gauge public reaction to see how they might do in front of a jury panel.

  55. Jun says:

    Does anyone have a copy of the bloody nose photo?

    I am thinking of putting it side by side with a legitimate photo from the state

  56. Jun says:

    Just a question

    If someone is tried for murder 1

    can they be retried for manslaughter?

    • fauxmccoy says:

      @Jun – no, no one can be re-tried for the same crime if acquitted, that would violate the ‘double jeopardy’ rule.clause of the 5th amendment.

      however, in florida in this case, gz is charged with murder2 which includes all lesser charges, including manslaughter. if at the time of deliberation, the prosecution thinks that they may not have been successful with their murder2 charge, they can request that the judge insert language in jury instructions that the jury can find the defendant guilty of manslaughter or other lesser charges.

      • blushedbrown says:

        This might be a stretch for Florida jurors, but could they increase the charge, or does the State have to do that?

        • fauxmccoy says:

          as far as i understand florida state law, the prosecution would have to file an amended information with new charges added – the professor can correct me if i am in error.

        • Xena says:

          This might be a stretch for Florida jurors, but could they increase the charge, or does the State have to do that?

          Murder 1 in Florida requires an indictment by the Grand Jury, and a jury of 12.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            yup xena, this is also true, i neglected to mention in my initial response, thanks for the friendly amendment. 🙂

      • fauxmccoy says:

        also, for Jun and Blushed-Brown

        the minimum mandatory sentence for manslaughter in florida is 20 years, with an additional mandatory penalty of 10 years for the victim being a minor. this makes a total of a 30 year sentence, 85% of which must be served before any early release is considered.

        although i believe strongly that M2 is the appropriate charge, i would not shed a tear at a mandatory 30 year sentence if it came to that.

      • Xena says:

        Well,I hope that the prosecution includes that charge that Anita Alexander was convicted for, because according to GZ, he did not know whether he actually shot Trayvon. Rather than trying to find out where the bullet went, he jumped on Trayvon’s back to “frisk” him. He fired his gun in a residential area where he knew residents were home. A conviction on that charge carries 20 years, statutory.

      • Jun says:

        In Florida, any murder or manslaughter, with a firearm is an automatic 25 to life. It is an aggravated circumstance depending on the degree and if the victim is a minor or an elderly person

        • fauxmccoy says:

          my information came from here as well as a variety of other sources – i would be interested in your source, since it varies


          Penalties and Sentences

          Florida state laws establish manslaughter as a second degree felony, which may result in a term of imprisonment for up to fifteen years, a fine of an amount up to $10,000, or both. If the defendant committed aggravated manslaughter, such as manslaughter of a child or elderly person by culpable negligence, the state treats the offense as a first degree felony, which increases the potential term of imprisonment to a maximum of thirty years. Florida laws also require the state to consider the defendant’s criminal history and determine whether the defendant is a career criminal or habitual violent offender; if so, the state may be able to increase the defendant’s punishment.

    • Jun says:

      Can someone explain the fraud exception to the double jeopardy rule?

      It says that if a trial is a fraud, it does not hold back a permission for the permission to be retried for a crime because the defendant was never in jeopardy in the first place

      What exactly would have to be a fraud?

      I also heard another exception is to have a motion to set aside a judgement to appeal a not guilty

      The only thing I know for sure is the double sovereignty rule to double jeopardy, and there is a federal law for murder 2 as well, so the feds can have a swing at person too

      Like for example, Emmett Till’s murderers, they openly admitted to murdering and torturing the kid years after, and my understanding is double sovereign means they can be tried federally since they were only tried by the state

      • gblock says:

        What I’ve heard of more frequently is that the person will be tried in the federal courts for violating the victim’s civil rights, apparently so that it is a different crime than the one(s) which they were tried for on the state level.

      • Jun says:

        I found this on google

        “[U]nder the so-called dual sovereignty doctrine, the double jeopardy clause of the United States Constitution does not prohibit successive federal and state prosecutions for the same conduct.”

      • Malisha says:

        There cannot be any claim, in my opinion, that will give rise later to a finding of “fraud” in this trial, because both sides were ably represented, and both sides had access to evidence.

      • Malisha says:

        Jun, it’s “double jeopardy” that means you can’t be tried twice for the same crime, no matter what you call it. It’s “sovereign immunity” that means you can’t be tried for a crime OR a tort if you are “the sovereign” or otherwise “immune” to prosecution. The sovereign used to mean the King, and now means any governmental agency that a judge wants to protect. Very corrupt law and should have no place in our constitution in this day and age. But it’s the 11th amendment to the Constitution, even before slavery was abolished by the 13th Amendment. It was more important to protect government officials for their crimes than it was to declare people to be human beings. Go figure.

      • Jun says:


        Perhaps not this trial but there may be possible dishonest and corrupt jurors

        but what I am saying is what do they mean by exception?

        The exception states that if the trial is a fraud, the defendant was never in jeopardy, therefore double jeopardy does not apply

        What do they mean?

      • gblock says:

        Jun, a couple of situations in which I have heard that this would happen are (1) if evidence was introduced that the attorney for that side knew to be wrong or phony, or (2) if the prosecutor knew of evidence that was exculpatory (would point to the defendant being innocent) and did not share it with the defendant’s lawyers or introduce it in court. Either of those could lead to the trial being thrown out after the fact. There may be other situations that would, also.

  57. Xena says:

    A Father tries to sell guns at a gun shop that does not buy and accidentally shoots and kills his 7 yr old son. The gun that killed the 7 yr old is a 9 mm.


    • cielo62 says:

      And to my sick shock, the cops are treating this case as “an accidental death”. ACCIDENTAL! No, it was stupid negligence! It was child abuse! But NOT an “accident”. A mother can be sent to jail for leaving her kid in a hot car but this ignoramus doesn’t get arrested for carrying a loaded weapon that killed his own son. SMH TIL IT RATTLES.

      Sent from my iPod

      • Xena says:

        The article said that the father may be charged with manslaughter. Just goes to prove that when owning a gun whose sole purpose is to kill human beings, that is what happens. Bullets don’t know one person from another. Death does not discriminate. It cares not about race, age, physical height, weight, gender, financial status.

        • cielo62 says:

          I get an inferior rag called the Houston Chronicle. The article I read this morning was short and didn’t mention any possible charges. Instead it said it was being investigated as an accident. Manslaughter is appropriate.

          Sent from my iPod

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        He was greatly distressed, it was a simple human failure, he believed the gun to be empty, it wasn’t.

        The few times I’ve handled guns, I was always told to be sure, never to let it idly point at anyone at all. I’ve been told to be sure
        to follow this rule, whether I knew the gun to be empty or not.
        It made a lot of sense to me, so I always have made absolutely
        certain to never handle a gun so that it points at anybody at all.

        After all, unless you’re intending to shoot or hold someone at gunpoint there’s absolutely no need to allow it to point at anyone ever, considering what it could do by some mistake.

        I thought that rule I was taught was universal, but, apparently not.

        • cielo62 says:

          You know, you are right. The father probably was very upset. But as usual, my focus goes to the victim. Seven years old is the age I teach. I could not stand to think of any of “my kids” dying because of a stupid parent.

          Sent from my iPod

  58. Erica says:

    WOW Professor, after the Elder Basby called Shirley a bitch, watching the last post/video, its really hard not to refer to GZ as a punk ass coward, wanna be cop coward and way less than a man or way less than the boy Trayvon was but, Professor, at your request, I will comply. My own morals teach me this but it does not warn me about peope in the world like GZ.. You should always treat others better or like you would want to be treated but if I was a killer, I don’t think I would care. Did GZ take the high road when it came to dealing with a teenager and clearly he should have as most aldults are expected to do but we shall be mindfull at the Professor’s request. GZ, u owe the Professor!!!!! But no one is saying to the defense team, treat the victim with a little dignity and respect, at least publicly, its all about the killer and having mercy on him. Morals dont matter, the right thing to do doesnt matter to the defense team, doesnt matter to treepers but like you said professor….somebody has to take the high road and the angry people, who wanted revenge on GZ, maybe TRACY MARTIN, took the high road, by not killing GZ, he took the highest road and sometimes, a dog has to be called out, had it not been for this person not being called out we would have never been here. Trayvon would still be dead and nobody would have know. GZ doesnt deserve anybody’s respest but the people sending him money, but what he did, what he has said and what his defense team is going to do is beyond imagination and its a disgrace to the SPD and all the community, its a disgrace to our country because, our rights have collided aganist each other but the minority gets the loosing end of the stick, the dead minority. If Tracy Martin would have said, Im going to take the high road and let things stand as they are, Im not going to fight or argue with these people, Im going to let the Lord fight this battle and Im just going to take the high road, then GZ would have walked away spot free. There is a time to take the high road but sometimes the high road is not as high as we think.But treepers, should be ignored because they lack…common sense in most cases but the point is “they lack”, so with that in mind, I pay them no attention and they dont have enough sense to bring out the worst in me. I love my country but I am so frustrated when i get charged with a minor crime, family violence assault, my child was molested by a family member, but cant get my court appointed lawyer because I had enough money to get out of jail, so I will have to represent myself but what if I take the high road? meaning not challenge the judge because laws are in place to prevent Judges from this, I mean should I take the high road?, nobody that has been able to bond out of jail can get a court appointed attorney and…I should take the high road,but thats not right, its not the law but like the SPD, the minorities, they dont care to question what you say but….not me and not Tracy Martin.

    • @Erica, i was trying to read your comment last night but i kept passing out! I’m glad my mouse was still touching it this morning or i mighta missed it!

      anyway, i feel the same as you. i’m sick about all the courtesy given to the liar and lawyer. It’s really getting out of hand now. GZ has set a new president of killing the victim after death. and torturing the parents too.

      Tracy Martin is doing the right thing b/c he still has other people depending on him. But if he didn’t, i personally would support any justice he’d want to take into his own hands.

      I know someone who’s stepfather has gotten away with what he did now for 27 years .he committed the ultimate crime after years of committing other ( pretty awful, but not deadly) crimes. And Just like GZ, he was never really forced to answer for any of those earlier, if he had i’m sure he wouldn’t of attempted the final one.

      There was a time where the step kid had the resources to impose the justice he deserves. it was consuming this person’s entire life, day and night they would plot revenge. but then they got some help because they knew it wasn’t right to have all those thoughts. and finally decided to let *karma* do her job. But as far as i’m concerned, to this day, karma failed miserably and didn’t settle up.

      In this case GZ is charged, the evidence is clear, and the whole world is watching. In the end I believe GZ’ will get his punishment and Trayvon Martin’s legacy will have changed the world. It won’t be “worth it” of course, but it will affect significant changes in our justice system the next time an innocent kid’slife is snuffed out. Hopefully anyway.I know for me, this case has taught me about racism that i’d never had known otherwise. And so it will also teach my son what he’d never know otherwise. This really is the trickle down effect. i’m grateful for that, and the people who have taught me.

      i can’t stop hating that murdering POS, but i can try to be respectful of Proff’s blog in the hopes that we are doing the right thing.

      • racerrodig says:

        i can’t stop hating that murdering POS, but i can try to be respectful of Proff’s blog in the hopes that we are doing the right thing.

        That says it all for me.

      • Jun says:

        I do not like the defendant at all either but let’s just be the bigger person and just be better

        The goal is to make him face up to his crime in prison

        We can still make jokes about him once in a while I believe

        But Fogenhats is definitely a piece of work and a very evil person

        On top of terrorizing and killing a kid, molesting his cousin, attempting to rape his cousin, terrorizing other people in his complex whom he deemed unworthy, running the complex as if he owned it, attacking police, committing crimes with his gang as a youth, getting donations from crazy people, and now, he wants even more vindication

        I do believe in Karma and what they say in America, what goes around comes around, and what went around from the defendant has been cooking for a while and it is set to come back around soon

        What is most important is he is in prison and the victims of all his crimes can get some peace at last and this lying murdering criminal will get his just desserts

    • Erica says:

      @shannon…lol I guess I could have used bullets, heck…maybe even a paragraph or 2…. Sry

  59. Malisha says:

    Thinking about Joe Oliver’s most recent, carefully rehearsed and pretty well acted statement (for it was a statement, not an interview) about Fogen, I am struck by the fact that Oliver is saying essentially that only CHARACTER is the defense of Fogen. Since Oliver claims to know Fogen’s CHARACTER, he knows his innocence. But if Fogen’s CHARACTER is in play, it’s going to be quite a trial. One would think that O’Mara would be careful to keep Fogen’s character out of the mix. For every Joe Oliver, there are a dozen “cousin-accusers” and for every Frank Taaffe, there are a dozen “Middle-Eastern co-workers” and for every Osterman, there are a dozen RTL residents who didn’t like Fogen’s “patrols.”

    Funny new statement, Oliver made. “I know Fogen’s good so this charge can’t be true.”

    It makes me even more perplexed by Fogen’s bizarre sense of entitlement. Even a real cop would have to face charges after shooting an unarmed kid who was not involved in any crime. And Fogen actually believes, and is indignant about, the idea that he SHOULD have gotten away with it on his word alone. He believes he should NOT have had to go through the whole legal process; the cops SHOULD have been able to give him a pass. He thinks it is wrong and that Sharpton et al. should APOLOGIZE to him for what they did in insisting that he be arrested and charged with a crime, after he killed a kid. His sense of entitlement is so shocking that we forget that it is just a “sense of entitlement” and nothing more compelling than that.

    Amazing. Astonishing. Bizarre in the extreme. Beyond Belief.

    • Jun says:

      As much lying the defendant does, it is fairly clear he and his cult are the ones who lack morals and are not upstanding and truly evil people

      On top of killing a kid (murder), he has done a lot of evil things to others, and has manipulated and schemed many, yet expects people to trust him at his word, especially when science says otherwise

      He expects everyone to bow down to his authority and lies

      Now he wants NBC to pay him for reporting about him stalking and killing a kid, potential motivation, due to an ambiguous epithet yelled over a recorded phone call

      A young boy has lost his life due to the defendant’s actions that he instigated and ended a confrontation of, and all he cares about is his fake bloody and broken nose and his photoshopped pictures, and being able to travel Florida freely and talk to witnesses, likely to intimidate them, as we have lots of evidence of

      My conclusive analytic of Fogenhats, is he is a very selfish person, who just want what he wants all the time, and does not care how he will do it

      When faced with actual reprehension and consequences for his actions, he moves to scheme and manipulate to get his way

      You can tell by the fact he tried to rape his cousin and molested her for a decade, he forced Trayvon to have to meet with his authority when the kid did not want anything to do with him, and to satisfy his bloodlust he murdered the kid because in his mind all that matters is him

      You can also tell by his myspace when he talked of skipping charges and getting others to take the fall for him

      He did it to his wife, and now he is doing it to Trayvon Martin

      Personally, I do not feel Fogenhats is the first nor last defendant to try all the mess he is trying and the only difference is social networking just blows it up worldwide

      I believe in Karma and I believe that she has something in store for Fogenhats very soon

      • mgs710 says:

        I think GZ baited TM into hitting him so he’d have a ready-made “accuse” as the reason why he had the right to kill TM– who he thought was just another @%# who was “always gets away with things.”

      • mgs710 says:

        GZ probably pushed him, some how egged him on so TM had to defend himself, gave him a clear path to his schnoz. That would be the best way to get away with murder. The self-inflicted would scenario wouldn’t be necessary. When he confronted TM he probably was thinking like Clint Eastwood famously said in the movie Sudden Impact, “make my day.” That’s why he showed no remorse. He wanted to kill someone whom he considered to be a criminal.

      • Jun says:

        I dont feel Trayvon ever hit the defendant at all. There were no marks at all on his knuckles and there was no NOSE or other DNA from the defendant on his hands. I still believe he staged his injuries and then had someone photoshop pics to try and make them appear worse than it really was. This also included getting Rourke to lie in court about the 45% blood. But even if the 45% thing was true, it is more the reason that the victim should have had blood all over his hands from the defendant and that is not available, tracewise.

        Considering the defendant targeted and stalked the kid with intent, because his motivation was deep seated hatred and he did not want Trayvon to get away, he stalked the kid and chased him. The defendant gave away that evidence with what he said and the most important and him stating “SHIT, He’s running” and then the defendant proceeds to run after the victim. To yell that out signifies that his motivation is to get this kid, since he yelled out an expletive that the kid was running away from, which states that he is unhappy that he is running away from him, so he runs after him. Then he confronts the victim, which we have proof of, and threatens the kid, hence the victim screaming.

        Considering this, the victim was allowed and justified to use reasonable force to defend himself as it is reasonable to believe a complete stranger, who refused to identify themselves kept running after you, when you were trying to get away from them. There is further proof in the way that the defendant grabbed the victim by the shirt and pulled him towards him and shot him, which also signifies he refused to let him get away. The victim had every right to be fearful of death because he was eventually killed by the defendant, and you can’t expect a complete stranger who keeps stalking you everywhere with anger, to have good intentions towards you. However, there was zero forensic evidence to back up the ideal that the victim even struck the defendant at all, even in self defense, because there was no trace at all on his hands, from the defendant!

        Lastly, the stalking was unnecessary and the confrontation was even more unnecessary as well as the killing was even more unnecessary since the victim posed no threat to anyone at all, including the defendant, and in fact, kept trying to get away from the defendant, but in the end, he would not even let him go, and just had to grab him by the shirt, and pull him towards him, and shoot him in the heart! The forensics and ballistics prove this because the shirt of the victim was pulled toward the defendant by the defendant, and then pulled downard and to the left, and the gun made contact with the shirt only when fired, and the bullet hit from intermediate range. This is the only way the bullet holes line up! This is the only way the shirt and the chest wound had those readings!

        So in conclusion, we have a defendant who targeted a kid with candy and ice tea walking home, the defendant proceeds to stalk and threaten the young boy, the young boy was too scared to even fight and all he did was scream, the young boy never even attacked the defendant even in self defense, and then the defendant grabs the young boy trying to get away, locks him in and shoots him in the heart, throws the kid facedown and sits on the kid’s back asphyxiating him, and then starts molesting the kid’s body by running his hands all over the victim ie the kid. Afterward the defendant was seen fiddling with his head and plotting. The defendant spent the rest of the time scheming and manipulating the public and law enforcement because he did not want to face the consequences of his actions, nor has he shown any regard at all for the human life he took. All he has done is slander the victim to raise money for himself, sue NBC for reporting news of this injustice, and continue his onslaught with his defense lawyer, and you can see all his false information he has presented worldwide!

        It is time to serve justice and it is murder 2, ladies and gentleman

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        China is watch, they’re wonder why we put up with all this, in their country he would have been shot already. They don’t yet understand what it takes to have real freedom, nobody gets anything for free, this is one of the prices we have to pay to enjoy our Constitutional rights. We can’t simply restrict them to people who are popular, we must suffer the unpopular as well.

      • Jun says:

        In this case though Lonnie, does China’s actions not make more sense and use common sense than the US?

        Zimmerman minimum would be in prison in China if he stalked and killed a kid

        The lawyer pulling all these lies would be in prison too

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          There wouldn’t be a lawyer in China, and if GZ were arrested, he’d be allowed to plead guilty in court and probably be sentenced to a quick death.

          Unless we get some sanity back in this country, we’ll probably be headed back to star chamber/witches of Salem type trials, where the popular view wins no matter what the evidence says.

          We know our system isn’t perfect, but when it fails we expect it to be a mistake and not by nefarious design. Too many nefarious designs succeed and that’ll be it for the rule of law.

      • gblock says:

        “In this case though Lonnie, does China’s actions not make more sense and use common sense than the US?”

        Jun, actually, the answer is an emphatic NO!

        If we have special exceptions, who gets to decide when we should make those exceptions?

        Someone who has been accused of particularly serious crimes like murder and rape especially needs the protection of a fair and complete examination of the evidence.

        Did anyone else see the 60 minutes piece about some black teenaged boys in Chicago who had been pushed into confessing to rape and murder? And the DA didn’t want to reexamine the case even when, years later, DNA evidence was found that pointed to someone else?

        • Xena says:

          Did anyone else see the 60 minutes piece about some black teenaged boys in Chicago who had been pushed into confessing to rape and murder?

          I did.

          And the DA didn’t want to reexamine the case even when, years later, DNA evidence was found that pointed to someone else?

          What caused me to say “HA!” was the case where the Asst. State;s Attorney said that the DNA matched a man who could have come by and raped the woman after the one she convicted killed her.

    • cielo62 says:

      Malisha- there used to be a show about the supernatural called Beyond Bizarre. I think the sheer absurdity of MUCH of GZs stories fit in with the title: Beyond Bizarre.

      Sent from my iPod

      • Jun says:

        pretty much all of the defendant and his minions ask the whole world and the state to disregard all science and logic

        and apparently a photoshopped bloody nose photo is the end all be all to be exonerated from all crimes

        Robbed a bank?

        Bloody nose, acquitted

        Prostitution ring?

        Bloody nose, acquitted

  60. fauxmccoy says:

    and my deadhead contribution which somehow feels appropriate for this topic (should my attempt to embed not work, kindly fix for me)

    • Xena says:

      Oops. The video posted upthread.

      • fauxmccoy says:

        @xena – how do you embed videos here? i used the youtube ’embed’ option, but as you can see, it does not work right. any clues would be appreciated. thanks!

        • Xena says:

          @xena – how do you embed videos here? i used the youtube ‘embed’ option, but as you can see, it does not work right. any clues would be appreciated. thanks!

          YouTube just changed their look. For some videos, if you click “share” a box pops up with the code to embed. For others if that box doesn’t pop up, use the URL at the top of your browser.

          I also have a code that I enter manually that prevents other videos from appearing after the one you played has ended (no one noticed that, uh? — but I won’t share my secret here for fear that enemies might read it. 🙂

          You can post a comment to blackbutterfly7.wordpress.com so I’ll have your email address and will email it to you.

  61. fauxmccoy says:

    professor, i appreciate this post very much. i know that for my own sense of well being, that it is critical to treat others how i wish to be treated. my opinion of gz and his entourage could not be lower, but i cannot bring myself to call them names or wish harm upon them. justice, however, i hope and pray for on a daily basis for whatever that is worth. refraining from cursing will be a challenge as it is considered an art form in my family, but i shall do my best.

    you are running a good place here, let’s all work together to keep it that way. i for one am more than willing.

  62. grahase says:

    Just in Time for Christmas – the Mayans have published a 2013 Calendar.

    Trouble is, I can not find out where to buy a few. Yea, I know – it isn’t the end of the world.

  63. colin black says:

    I mean the tune would go well with those lyrics

  64. colin black says:

    Malisha that folk song would the lyrics you wrote Old Foggens Goat .Would go well with an old Irish Folk Song also about a Goat.Its called Paddy McGinntys Goat.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z1uy1wL5cs

    • Malisha says:

      Colin B, my mother taught kindergarten, long ago. She had a piano in her classroom. She had written her dissertation on the folk songs of the Appalachian Mountains. She had over 200 of them written out by hand and the notes written out by hand. Old Grogan’s Goat was just one among those 200+. I didn’t like the song at the time, because I couldn’t figure out how somebody would “tie” a goat onto the railroad tracks — my mind was, as they say, “concrete and fastidious.” Another song she had in there was “John Henry” but that one had over 100 versus! Once I memorized about 50 of them, have now forgotten. When my mother died I didn’t get back to her classroom until about three weeks later. Her only copy of the folk songs was gone. I was absolutely astounded (who would take my mother’s song book?!) and felt horribly betrayed. But I didn’t carry on too much because it was a kind of tarnish to the outpouring of condolences I got from the staff and teachers at her school. Old Fogan brought back all those memories, the good and the bad, to me. Kind of a weird experience. Anyway. I’ve been singing the damn thing all day, can’t get it out of my head.

      I wish I could make funny videos like LLMPapa does. I’d do “Old Fogen’s Goat” for sure. With a blue-grass sounding banjo background.

      Once I wrote a song about the DeShaney Case. To the music of Turkey in the Straw:

      Mizz De-Shaney, now don’t choo raise a fuss,
      ’cause there’s no special relationship ‘tween Joshua and US.

    • Xena says:

      See if this fixes it.

    • gblock says:

      Colin, you gave me the idea of checking out the song that Malisha used on Youtube to see if it is the same tune as the song that I learned. It actually seems to be called Bill Grogan’s goat. The tune is similar to the tune that I learned for Sippin’ Cider, but seems to not be identical to it.

    • Malisha says:

      Colin, that’s hilarious! Especially the picture of the angel.

      Have you read Gabriel Garcia Marquez’s short story: “The very old man with enormous wings”?

    • gblock says:

      It occurred to me hours after I wrote my other reply that the song “Oh the Deacon went down” has a similar tune to both “Bill Grogan’s Goat” and “Sippin’ Cider”. So I guess it really is one of those songs that has many incarnations.

      And no, I am not actually as obsessed with this as I may seem!

  65. whonoze says:


    I’ve been staring at pictures of GZ’s nose for hours now. I made a boo-boo in my earlier post about the possible editing artifacts. I was actually looking at my attempt at aspect ratio fix instead of the ‘original’, and what I thought could be editing artifacts were actually artifacts of my stretching of the picture back to what seemed a more proper shape. **sigh**


    However, I’m still not convinced that the photo has NOT been messed with, due to the shape of the nose as Tzar mentioned above. Not the pushed out ‘swelling’ but the possibly pushed-in bridge that makes the swelling look bigger.

    I have also noted that:
    a. another pic from the station clearly show an abrasion on the side of GZ’s nose
    b. in yet another pic there appears to sti be some slight swelling there
    c. in all three straight-on pics from the station, the bridge of his nose looks wider or narrower depending on the height of the camera, the focal length, and the lighting.

    But it’s not the size of the bridge in the bloody-nose pic that unsettles me. It’s the shape. An asymmetry that goes beyond the bump.

    to be cont.

    • Judy75201 says:

      Do I remember you from HuffPo?

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Why couldn’t it be a meta-picture– a hi-res photo of a photo? Then you wouldn’t have left-over files, ragged pixel meshing, artifacts and bothersome evidence of tampering, and best of all, the original is said to have been deleted! You only have an emailed picture attachment without a chain of custody.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Yep, that’s exactly the explanation of why the pixel blocks are in order. Otherwise you can’t alter the picture at all without it being easily detectable in a pixel level exam. It’s the altered proportions that give it away.

    • Jun says:

      another issue is the shadow

      consider the angle the pic had to have been taken

      since it is the left side of the defendant’s face

      There should be a shadow on the right side of the face and there is none!!!!!!

      The shadow is on the left side of the face!!!!!

  66. colin black says:

    Jun dont ever underestimate the falsehoods an lies that came out of team trunkmoms defence team not just Baez but the lot of them includeing her parents an brother..Forinstance Baez got in front of the cameras straifgt of the get go an told the m s m an local media press anyone whom would listen that Caylee was alive an well.Definetly not dead an everyone should keep there eyes open .Told us there were tips comeing in every day of a live Caylee.Though most of them eminated from or via the defendants batshit crazy mother sindy.He went on with this speil of a live missing/kidnapped Caylee right up untill the remains where found on the first peice of un developed spare land round the corner form the wee girls home..Then he gets up in opening statement at trial an tell the world that Caylee was never missing.In fact she drowned in the pool that very first day June 16 th in the backyard.An casey an her father then somehow conspired to make an accident look like a murder.An even although casey waited a month to inform anybody her daughter was missing..She was in fact already dead..So what a load of bollocks an when exactly as he going to inform the world Caylee wasnt missing but the victim of an accidental drowning??Beleive me the lieing told in court was nothing compared to the lieing pre trial.It seems to be acceptible an buisness as useall in Florida i m o.

    • Jun says:

      I believe Caylee was murdered as well

      but I cant really argue much about it because I dont know much about the case

      It sucks but frankly, I am powerless to do anything about it

      I dont even know who disposed of her body even

  67. Xena, quite frankly, anyone is qualified to mentor if that person wishes to take time with a young person. Mentoring does not require skills, only time. I do not know if GZ was a mentor or not, but that was not the point of my post. My point was that IF he were a mentor, his mentees might not have believed him, and as a result, might not have supported him.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Or likely minors who can’t and shouldn’t come forward.

    • Xena says:

      Xena, quite frankly, anyone is qualified to mentor if that person wishes to take time with a young person.

      I disagree with an “anyone.” I would not want to be mentored by, neither allow my child to be mentored by a practicing drug addict; alcoholic; ex-bouncer with an arrest record.

      Mentoring does not require skills, only time.

      Mentoring requires experience(s) that can be passed on and applied by the mentee.

      I understand the point you were making, but IMO, had GZ mentored children, he would have known how to verbally communicate with Trayvon — and he didn’t.

      • racerrodig says:

        There is no evidence he mentored anyone. He even changed his mentoring story on the fly on Hannity and said to the effect when he was done mentoring he was on his way to Target.

        If he did, there would be at least one where they or a parent came forward, not to mention on a witness list.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        There you go, a mild mannered person would have identified themselves, not snarled and whipped themselves into an angry frenzy over a total stranger for just being in the area.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Organized mentor programs require a background check. So of course he wouldn’t pass muster.

    • grahase says:

      Isnt it odd – the guy in Oliver twist that mentors kids to steal has the name — FAGIN. Pretty close, don’t you think!

  68. bettykath says:

    If THIS request works, I’ll come back more often. I stopped coming b/c of the rolsl in the gutter that seemed to be happening with greater frequency. Thanks for trying. Hope it works.

  69. It is very possible that GZ might have mentored some kids, but his public service to them may not cause them to support him. Perhaps they did not come forward because they know he is not being forthright

    • Xena says:

      It is very possible that GZ might have mentored some kids, but his public service to them may not cause them to support him.

      GZ wasn’t tutoring. He is not qualified to tutor. Neither is he qualified to mentor. Mentoring conveys that a person is teaching others how to learn to perform something. It’s somewhat like coaching but in non-physical performance.

      Had GZ been a “mentor,” he would have been personal and not approved by an organization. There’s no monitoring under “personal mentoring.”

      • Tee says:

        @ Xena this is what I am talking about, it just seems odd that no one has come forward to say yes he was a mentor for this agency. His church or big brothers program or even the parents of the children no one has come forward. again I say, do they exsits or is it all a lie like everything else he say.

        • Xena says:

          @ Xena this is what I am talking about, it just seems odd that no one has come forward to say yes he was a mentor for this agency. His church or big brothers program or even the parents of the children no one has come forward. again I say, do they exsits or is it all a lie like everything else he say.

          Sunday evenings were his weekly “How much will I pay you after fencing the goods you stole” meeting,” that ended with his butt being kicked and leaving him with a mere 40 cents for groceries that week.

        • blushedbrown says:

          If and that’s a big if, he did mentor anybody, I don’t think any public or private entity for mentoring children would come out and say it publicly. They are minors and I do believe they would have to protect the children first and foremost. If O’mara thought for a split second that he could request at least a letter from the mentoring program stating that yes he did this and that on certain days and blah blah blah , he would of done so and posted it on his website. My thoughts on this mentoring business is this:
          Shellie was babysitting for some extra dough on the side. In turn GZ translates this to MENTORING. Well all know he has a nasty knack in turning things into something more then it is. It sounds better then just saying babysitting.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            @blushed-brown — your explanation of ‘mentoring’ makes more sense than anything i have seen so far. the official zimstory is that whatever agency they began this ‘mentoring’ project is no longer around (awfully convenient, eh?) but being the upstanding ‘muricans they are, they continued of their own free will. something about the whole story just smells like the day old special at ‘ye olde fish mongers’.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Thank you.
            I wasn’t aware of that little tidbit, not in business anymore, yeah right.

          • Xena says:

            Shellie was babysitting for some extra dough on the side. In turn GZ translates this to MENTORING.

            Maybe this is what Osterman meant when saying he advised GZ to keep his gun with him at all times to keep it away from reach of the children.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Good point, didn’t think of that.

          • Xena says:

            Good point, didn’t think of that.

            There’s a sorority whose saying is;
            “If you want to go fast, go alone.
            If you want to go far, go with others.”

            You thought of the babysitting. I thought of what Osterman said. Maybe someone else will remember something that connects it even more.

          • blushedbrown says:

            I hope so. I like connecting the dots.

      • Malisha says:

        I’m sure if there were kids at Fogen’s house on the Sunday before he went out and killed Trayvon Martin, the FBI would have interviewed them because they would be witnesses to anything that took place before he left home. He said on Hannity that he left home that day “after we mentored the kids.”

    • why would you believe that story after all of his other lies have come out? isn’t a little convenient that he just happened to leave his house, after mentoring 2 black kids, and accidentally spots, curses about, chases and kills another black kid.
      there’s no evidence at all.

      it’s just too unreasonable to believe.

      • Malisha says:

        Somebody said that they attended an affair or party with Fogen, or maybe it was his fake graduation party, and there were two Black teen-agers there, and they asked who they were (why? Is there anything peculiar about two Black teen-agers that would cause a question?) and they were told that these were Fogen’s mentees. More likely there were no two mysterious Black kids there but there were two manatees. Or somebody mistook two people (not saying who) for two manatees.

        Anyway, here’s my other strange idea. “Mentoring kids” is a way to have kids around. Why parents are not coming forward to say, “He mentored my kid…”? If kids have protective, involved parents, how come they’re sending these kids to be “mentored” by Fogen? For what earthly reason would any parent come up with that? More likely, Fogen and Shellie provided some kind of incentive at their house for young kids withOUT parental resources to stop by or to come over and… and what? And give Fogen information on their buddies and friends so Fogen could monitor the community? And become unofficial “confidential informants” about what’s going on in town? Or something?

        There was a Nobel prize winner who did incredible research on the kinds of diseases, such as “mad cow disease,” that result from some form of animal or human cannibalism. He brought some 200 young boys over from a very primitive island society where he went to study the disease. Later it turned out that he was molesting these boys, and it was confirmed, and so forth, no doubt about it. Many people thought that was just fine because he gave those boys opportunities they would never have had. Others found it exploitive; at any rate it was illegal.

        Anyway, a similar story occurs in New York, this one unconfirmed, about a very famous person in the music (classical, not pop) industry. He had employees working for him who would, for extra money, go out and find him his “mentees” and he had specific qualities they were to seek.

        It’s not anything we have evidence of. But we also don’t have independent evidence (other than Fogen’s word) that he mentored any real, live, non-imaginary children, ever, anywhere.

      • Jun says:

        I have found the mentor story odd but perhaps it is a code word much like Peter Pan was for PayPal and $8 meant 8 Grand. I do not know what the code word is but I will say that he does have molestation allegations already and it was extremely odd that witnesses saw the defendant Fogenhats rubbing his hands all over a kid he just shot, and he was seen on top of him sitting on his back. Perhaps there is some truth to all these molestation tales and he was even molesting Trayvon. Another exception is it is just another lie that he tells for no reason because I do not see anyone who should be mentored by him as he is muy loco, considering he has quite a lengthy history of violence and crime and has been known to fly off the handle.

  70. mgs710 says:

    TM’s parents are taking the high road, so I sure can and will. Thanks for the advice.

    • Judy75201 says:

      They have shown nothing but grace and dignity. I look up to them. But I kind of want to do it for them (the name-calling, etc.), which is why I appreciate this advice.

  71. Tee says:

    a lil off topic, have there been any talk about the kids that GZ was mentoring? I haven’t read anywhere that they have come forward yet.

    • Rachael says:

      I was told it was because their parents (who have not come forward) said they felt it was best to keep the kids out of it.

    • @Tee, get real!!!!!!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOOL there’s NO way he mentored anyone!! what it the world would he mentor someone about?? he’s a life long scam artist, thief, a collage failure, a beggar a mooch and of course a killer. i mean really.

      i dare anyone come out and say GZ mentored their kid!! NO WAY and NO one has said anything about their parents keeping them out of it…

      i hope this will come into court somehow, and prove what a fantastical liar he is.

    • Malisha says:

      Fogen was always very vague about the kids he “mentored.” And finally his bro, Junior, said that Fogen mentored two kids whose parents were both in prison. Hmmmm. Mentored them on how to visit prisons? Anyway, lots of questions have been asked about the mentored kids but nobody’s giving up any specifics. You’d think instead of crying, Joe Oliver would go see those kids and get them to step up to the plate and defend their main man, wouldn’t you? Who knows, though, without Fogen’s influence on them maybe they have gone bad.

      It’s just real suspicious.

      Notice that this time Joe Oliver began to do his talking points, he basically said that if he didn’t know Fogen personally and know how wonderful he was, he would have thought it was a racist “shoot” but his own personal knowledge of Fogen’s wonderfulness is the reason he doesn’t? So that would mean that for all of us who do not know Fogen personally, what we assume is pretty much the logical conclusion that anybody would form. Right?

      Now if Joe Oliver has an 18-year-old son and he was such a good friend of Fogen’s, how come his 18-year-old son, who was naturally also a good friend of Fogen’s, isn’t speaking up to help his dear father’s dear friend? I’da thunk…

      • Jun says:

        Considering it is the Fogenhats, I will call it a lie until I see authentication and not a bought friend like Oliver

        I am surprised Fogenhats has not tried to buy some kids into being on TV and lying for him just like Oliver

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Wonderful people don’t use offensive language to describe people they do not know, like GZ did in the NeN call. That call was a needlessly vicious and angry attack of the stranger he saw do nothing more than take shelter from the rain.

        While his anger is unexplained, his anger does explain why he missed the opportunity to end hostilities by identifying himself. A hate filled person is unlikely to be concerned with anyone’s safety at all.

    • Jun says:

      Considering Fogenhats’ actions, I would say that is likely a false story, much like his black grandfather story

  72. colin black says:

    Thanks Regina an will keep you in mind an send healing positive thoughs …Have a relaxing Christmas an a restfull one if possable your body need lots of energy to recover an heal.An after surgery take it extra easy if possable .Rush to recover can make it longer .Even quick healers need rest after surgery…All the Best……….x

  73. colin black says:

    @Jun…….. just call him that what he is the DEFENDANT Or the ACUSSED…Jai accussie

  74. Malisha says:

    You know, I just looked back at a post that was up in July about Rabbi Hillel’s three questions. There I saw a comment put up by someone who has since been removed from this blog. At that time in July, he was lucid, intelligent, thoughtful and interesting. After that he seemed to go through some kind of giant melt-down; it was weird, looking at the comments across time and seeing some sort of “other persona” take over. I feel like I have lost a friend, now, although I perfectly understand the Professor’s rationale for banning him. Then I realized that the person who has left voluntarily (about whom Whonoze commented) was indeed Unitron with whom I tangled for a while, and now cannot remember the substance of our disagreement. And I wish Unitron was here to discuss it with me (if he/she remembers).

    On another subject, since the big issue of blood on Fogen’s face has occupied so much Internet “air-time,” I would like to remind everyone who’s interested in this photograph (in either of its iterations) that there are two photographs of the back of Fogen’s head, and there are lots and LOTS of questions about those two. O’Mara doesn’t like those two photographs of the back of Fogen’s head; he keeps talking about Fogen’s nose.

    Which reminds me of the old folk song from the Appalachian Mountains: Old Grogan’s goat.

    Here, ladies and gentlemen, a new folk song from the Bloggraphie:

    Old Fogan’s nose (old Fogan’s nose)
    Was hurt and sore (was hurt and sore)
    And he alleged (and he alleged)
    He suffered more (he suffered more).

    He said a guy (he said a guy)
    up to no good (up to no good)
    had punched his nose (had punched his nose)
    hard as he could (hard as he could).

    He said his head (he said his head)
    was slammed and bashed (was slammed and bashed)
    until it felt (until it felt)
    like it was smashed (like it was smashed).

    He cried three days (he cried three days)
    and prayed to God (and prayed to God)
    But the detective (the detective)
    thought it odd (he thought it odd) —
    That such a fight (that such a fight)
    and mighty strife (and mighty strife)
    led to three scratches (wait-a-minute now,
    you mean scratches?)
    and the other guy plum lost his…life
    (so hold on now, uh…really?)
    (could we take it again from “nose”?)
    (and this time, make it rhyme.)

    * * * O * * * K * * NOW:

    Old Fogan’s nose (old Fogan’s nose)
    Was hurt and sore (was hurt and sore)
    And he alleged (and he alleged)
    He suffered more (he suffered more).

    He said a guy (he said a guy)
    up to no good (up to no good)
    had punched his nose (had punched his nose)
    hard as he could (hard as he could).

    He said his head (he said his head)
    was slammed and bashed (was slammed and bashed)
    until it felt (until it felt)
    like it was smashed (like it was smashed).

    He got his wife (he got his wife)
    to give first-aid (to give first-aid)
    And then his scars (and then his scars)
    began to fade (began to fade).

    And nine months later (nine months later)
    What do we see? (What do we see?)
    A color pix (a color pix)
    clear as can be (clear as can be)
    of Fogen’s nose (of Fogen’s nose)
    that proves he’s right (that proves he’s right)
    that he ain’t never (that he ain’t never)
    started no fight (started…no…fiiiiiiiiiiight.)

    Um…huh? (ummmmmmmm….huhhhhhhh…) ❓

    • Two sides to a story says:


    • I did not ban unitron.

      He did not respond well to my cross examination and left without answering a simple question that I asked him.

      He can return anytime, but he has chosen to stay away.

      • whonoze says:

        FWIW, on bcclist unitron did not say or imply that s/he had been banned, but rather clearly stated that s/he departed the discussion at his/her own choice. I’d guess unitron might come back after more cooling off. I think s/he is too dedicated a contrarian to quit the discussion forever. AFAIK, unitron has NEVER supported GZ or any of his BS, but unitron busts everyone chops on bcclist, and he did the same on the Whonoze blog when I was maintaining it. I do not unitron as anything other than a fleeting cyber-persona, but I like having unitron around, quarrelsome though s/he may sometimes be.

        • cielo62 says:

          The quarrelsome part I don’t mind. But it’s the refusal to consider ANY evidence before bashing people’s ideas. That bothered me. No matter whatever else gets discussed on this blog, the evidence is the cornerstone. Pictures, conversations and opinions are great but its the evidence that will put GZ in jail.

          Sent from my iPod

    • racerrodig says:

      I do lyrics too…..How about a play on “Truckin” by The Grateful Dead” in the key of “E”

      Fogen…needs his chips cashed in
      Taaffe is the do – dah man
      Together, more or less in line, just keep stalkin’ on

      Sanford has flashing marquees out on Main Street
      Miami, Orlando and Tampa, it’s all the same street
      Not your typical Captain involved in a typical daydream
      Hang it up, and see what Osterman brings

      SheLie, at the Cola Machine, Taffee, out to count his green
      Fogen, has the way and means, he just can’t let it bee -eee

      Most of the cats that you meet say “You need to be cool”
      Most of the time he’s plotting and scheming at home
      One of these days he says he just gonna do it
      Out of the door and into his schruck he goes in the rain

      Fogen, to the do – dah man
      Once said he was gonna play his hand
      Together, out the door they go
      Good bye suspicious ma…….an.

      Sometimes the lights all shining on me
      Other times I can barely see
      Lately it occurs to me
      What a long, strange trip it’s been

      Skatin’ don’t know where to go
      Been thinkin’ but how would I know
      Takes time, to pick a place to go
      Just can’t face the ma…..an

      What in the world every became of SheLie
      She never had sparkle, and you know it’s a shame
      Ruined her life, and she just got bust for lyin’
      All a friend can say is “ain’t it a shame”

      Fogen, to the do – dah man
      Once said he was gonna play his hand
      And oh now he is gonna go to jail
      Just keep scheming on

      Sittin’ and starin’ out of the hotel window
      Got a tip I’m getting arrested again
      I’d like to get some sleep before the hassle
      But SheLie’s asleep in the way once again

      Fogen, you ain’t goin’ home
      Whoa whoa baby, Prisons where you belong
      Get back, and try and rest them bones
      Prisons where you be – long….ong

    • OMG wow!!!!
      it’s catchy!

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Your 2nd to last verse about scars fading remind me that any cut to the scalp leaves a permanent absence of hair where the cut was. Does GZ have such gaps?

    • gblock says:


      The song that you posted here reminds me of a camp song I learned as a child called “sippin’ cider”. The first verse went something like:

      “Oh the prettiest girl (oh the prettiest girl)
      I ever saw (I ever saw)
      Was sippin’ ci (was sippin’ ci)
      -der through a straw (-der through a straw),
      Oh the prettiest girl I ever saaaw
      was sippin’ cider through a straw
      Aw dee aw dee aw dee aw.”

      Any idea whether that was the same tune as Old Grogan’s goat?

      • Malisha says:

        I believe so, gblock, but it wasn’t in my mom’s songbook so I can’t be sure.

        I vaguely remember hearing it, though, and it seems to me that it was the same tune. That might be one of those folk song tunes (like Turkey in the Straw) that has many lives.

  75. colin black says:

    The comment about finding ShelLie an getting back with or whatever was written to Xena I dont know there status.However when he gave the interveiw to Hanraty he had already agreed to give an exclusive to Babra Walters.She an her film crew flew down to Florida.She met gz in a Hotel room.He assured her she had the interveiw .But as a courisy to Hanraty who had been suportive of him in the past on his show george was going to do his first interveiw with him an then film a second interveiw with her an A B C..An the only stipulation was they show there show after F O X airs the interveiue.She an her crew had travelled all the way to Florida so she had a word with her producer an they agreed.Couple of hours later gz strolls into her hotel room Osterman/security in tow dressed in jeans an t shirt.The smart suite was gone hyer first clue she thought this interveiws a bust.Then he agreed to do the interveiw only if A B C paid for two hotel rooms for he an his wife an expenses for I IR C two months?Now the reason I mentioned this is if I were liveing in a hotel with my wife for two nights or two weeks let alone two months.Id only or we would only aquire one room.Anyway B Walters told him wher to stuff it………

    • Cercando Luce says:

      Two rooms? It must be because of his tonsil stones!

      Really, he goes to the doctor’s PA for tonsil stones, but to an ENT to X-ray his nose? Oh no,too expensive! (never mind that an ENT could also fix the tonsil stones)

      • Xena says:

        GZ asked Walters for one room for HIM AND SHELLIE for one month. It sounded to me as though ShelLIE might not have been with him and this was a make-up effort. Also, it sounds to me as though his “safehouse” is a motel room where he can check out and return to the establishment later.

  76. Xena says:

    Following and catching up (while feeling I will have to use legal terms such as “malicious” instead of 4 letter words. 🙂

  77. Mary Davis says:

    @ colin black. Thank you. Happy holidays to all.

  78. Operacarla says:

    I applaud you Professor…I will stick with GZ. Does anyone know if/when Shellie goes to trial will it be a jury trial? Thanks in advance!

    • You said,

      “I will stick with GZ.”

      Funny, I didn’t know that he is a good adhesive.

      Does he have to go through an exquisite reduction process?

      Perhaps that could be the subject of a new motion.

    • ladystclaire says:

      You will stick with George, you are not sticking with much! besides, how can you stick with someone who murdered a innocent unarmed kid in cold blood? BTW, you don’t have to bother answering my question because, I already know the answer. smh

      • Operacarla says:

        By sticking with GZ, I meant that is how I will continue to address him. Anything else is repulsive…eewwwww. Does anyone know if Shellie will have a jury trial?

  79. Jun says:

    Is there any way for us to go on TV and confront Omara on all his lies with West?

    I will also add that not talking down on them is going to be rather hard as I have zero respect for them.

    I’d love to plan out and point out all of Omara’s lies in front of millions

    This is way beyond what a defense lawyer should be doing as it is pure sleeze

    • Dennis says:

      Bad defense lawyers do not play by the rules and they lie. Just look at Jose Baez. It was Baez that told the whole world how George Anthony molested Casey. He destroyed the reputation of an innocent man and I hope he burns in hell. O’Mara is going down the same dark path that Baez did.

      • Jun says:

        I dont know much about the Casey case but in a way, George could have simply objected to it and tell the court that it is not true and Baez has no proof or truth to such accusation

        As for Casey, as much as anyone hates it, the state couldn’t put the smoking gun in her hand, and they were not all that confident in the case either, as if you saw their after trial actions, it does not speak of confidence, nor were they appalled

        I agree that the kid was murdered but the fact was they could not pin it on Casey

        She may be guilty as sin but they did not place the smoking gun in her hand

        Although Baez has done things that are not ethical, he is not nearly as bad as Omara, because the lies are very blatant and he shows absolutely no respect for the victim and his family

        I dont feel Baez would even do what Omara and co do

      • Malisha says:

        Dennis, “Bad defense lawyers do not play by the rules and they lie.” Let me point out that “Bad prosecution lawyers” do the same and now, come to think of it, “bad anykinda lawyers” do so too. :mrgreen:

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Dennis, you are darn right about O’mara going down the same path as Jose Baez. is winning a case like this the only thing these attorneys think about? instead of getting to the TRUTH, they only want to win at any and all cost, no matter who gets hurt along the way or that, two young lives have been taken. in O’mara’s case, he is putting the child victim on trial while at the same time, he is doing his best to ruin Trayvon’s reputation. this is not right and, the justice system shouldn’t allow it. Trayvon was the victim in all of this, yet there are those in this country who are also smearing, slandering and spewing untruths about an innocent deceased kid who they never knew. their only knowledge about him is that he was black and that is enough for them to do the things they are now doing. GOD has got a way of bringing them all down and, in that I can take comfort.

      • Jun says:

        Baez is actually going against Omara

        and to be perfectly honest, an impartial jury, seeing how Omara has been acting in regards to his disregard for truth and a child victim is not going to bode well with a judge or jury

        They would be disgusted

        If I were the state, and Omara is acting like he is now on TV, I would personally press charges on him for false presentation of evidence (which is tampering with evidence I believe)

        I would not doubt if the state uses all of Omara’s media breakdowns against him in court and trial

        Who are they going to believe?

        The sleezy defense lawyer Omara with West, badgering and harassing witnesses on the stand, repeatedly lying, getting nervous and throwing fits, attacking a dead kid in court, attacking the dead kid’s parents


        The state and the victim’s family, who has done none of the above and have evidence to back up their claims and have not lied or tricked anyone at all

        My guess is the jurors are going to be people with emotions and empathy like anyone else and I dont believe they will select callous people with disregard for even a kid onto the jury

        I am guessing Omara may try and cheat during the jury selection but we will catch him

    • I’m sure you can handle it Jun.

      • Dennis says:

        Frederick, I have a question that you might be able to answer. if during the trial, the jury discovers or learns that the defense is lying about certain things, would they immediately favor the prosecution? I would have trouble accepting anything else the defense says if I was on the jury. Justice is about exposing the truth and punishing those that are guilty. If one side is not being truthful, I would have to favor the other side.

      • Jun says:

        LOL it is kind of second nature to call him Zimmernuts Fogenhats and other funny names

        What should we call the defendant? I know we agreed not to use his name at all

      • grahase says:

        I wrote this on the last post. Remember Tugboat told Serino – that doesn’t even sound like me. The father said he didn’t know the first time until he listened on headphones. Both of these comments are on tape. So, whether or not Serino and another police officer said that Tracy did not recognize the screams as belonging to his son is a red herring. I think he is right. I doubt he would have ever heard Trayvon scream in sheer terror. However, Tugboats father said he had heard Tugboat scream like that when he was younger. Scream in terror, why, I wonder.

        • fauxmccoy says:

          @grahase – i remember papa zim stating that he had heard his son scream many times back in virginia. i initially made many jokes about it, looking back, i have to consider child abuse. it does not excuse any of gz’s actions of course, but to call this family dysfunctional is an understatement.

        • jm says:

          grahase: “However, Tugboats father said he had heard Tugboat scream like that when he was younger. Scream in terror, why, I wonder.”

          According to Osterman, Chorge was beat by his mother and his father ignored it. So much for the perfect Zimmerman family described by RZ Jr.

      • Xena says:

        i remember papa zim stating that he had heard his son scream many times back in virginia.

        Hmmm. So as a child, GZ cried for help for a long time, and his dad heard him but didn’t help?

        • blushedbrown says:

          I think I might of found another freudian slip for you to take apart.
          Hannity interview @ 3:45 after the shimmey remark @13:50
          I would try and sit up and push myself down.
          Faux pas again?
          How does a person push themselves down when they are suppose to be on thier back.

          • Xena says:

            How does a person push themselves down when they are suppose to be on thier back.

            He would try to sit up to push himself down off the concrete to the grass — which would end up like Trent Sawyer demonstrated in a video.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Which Trent video?

          • Xena says:

            Oops. Didn’t it embed? Let’s try again.

          • blushedbrown says:

            Oh ok I understand. If he shimmied the way he described, Trayvon would have to do that also. Not to mention his groin would be in his face, if he didn’t. Hmmm, must of missed that video or forget about it.
            I took gz statement on Hannity to mean, he was describing himself Pushing himself down on Trayvon, but didn’t realize he said it. Similar to other freudian slips. JMO.
            Its 3am Im tired

          • Xena says:

            I took gz statement on Hannity to mean, he was describing himself Pushing himself down on Trayvon, but didn’t realize he said it. Similar to other freudian slips. JMO.
            Its 3am Im tired

            I see what you’re saying but am taking a position of “agree quickly with thine adversary” who is GZ. If we agree with him, we see he lied about Trayvon seeing the gun. Also if we agree with him, we see that he lied about being pinned down. If his body was free to shimmy, he was not pinned down with Trayvon straddling him.

            I’d like to see LLMPapa do a video of the excerpt from Hannity where GZ says “I also thought the police were going to come and see me with the firearm and shoot me. I mean, I was terrified.” It would tie in great with LLMPapa’s “How? Pt. 3”


          • blushedbrown says:

            Ah, I see.
            Yes, I would like to see a video with a tie in from LLMPapa,

      • Malisha says:

        PUBLIC ACCESS TV. Perhaps we should get a spot together and do a presentation. How does one go about doing that?

      • Jun says:

        Even though Robert Sr tried to lie he Freudian slipped

        He said he heard screams like that back in Virginia, which was when the defendant was a teenager

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I think any stretches of truth or outright lies will turn around and bite him in the butt. No one really needs to confront him except the prosecution in the courtroom.

      • Jun says:

        Thats true. It would bring a certain joy to make him sweat even more on national TV though

        *Montgomery Burns Excellent*

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Jun, Robbert Zimmerman Sr. is just as big of a LIAR as his off spring and, I would just love for someone to out his ass on HP as being the person known as, LetJusticePrevail. I would do it myself but, I don’t blog there anymore and, I will never apply for another account there either. I thought HP was better than what they really are but, I was wrong. every mean and hate filled comment that is made about Trayvon or his family, the moderators allow it to be posted. as for what those who supprot Trayvon and his family, the Zimmerman suppporters have their comments deleted when they don’t need to be. Nope, never again will I go back there and blog.

        • @ladystclaire: I know what you mean. I still post sometimes on HP, and someone else e-mailed me privately to confirm that LetJusticePrevail is RZ Jr. and I already knew that Newbee100 is GZ. Only those two, would have as much invested in defending and justifying the actions of GZ! They both post things that only the “killer” would know. I might “out” RZ soon, but I am having so much fun insulting him and GZ daily!!!

          They are both to stupid and to know that they are being insulted! Newbee already has written me privately, and I have cussed him out several times. Something I cannot do on here but on there…..YES! GZ and his stupid brother all are overwhelmed by the constant barage of posts which provide evidence and none that can be retuted. LetJustice also has the nerve to confront me in private and he gets trashed too. I told him not to even think he can confront me in any way, shape of form because he will be put in his proverbial place because I am not afraid of any of them. I am to old to care and I repeat daily that GZ is a liar who will do hsi 30 years in prison for murdernig a boy who was begging and pleading for his life!! That fool had the nerve to ask me how did I know, that TM was pleading for his life? My response: You should know, you were there!

          • racerrodig says:

            LJP is Sr……newbee is Fogen & Jr is mdmcruder805 / army02 for the record.

          • @racerodig:

            GZ is absolutely a complete nutcase! I figured that Fogen was him as well.::SIGH:: What is wrong with those folks? I just posted to RZ Jr. who is once again defending that insane brother of his. You can figure out which ones are G’s and RZ’s because RZ’s writing skills are a little better than G’s but the racist drivel is still the same.

          • racerrodig says:

            I still think we need to make a mass assault on them on HP one day all at the same time and call them out by name.

          • @racerodigL
            I just re-read what you posted. LJP is the dad? is that the best he can do? I have called him every name in the book BTW! No wonder he gets so angry and I just laugh away! LOL! Which one is the mom? Maybe they have recruited the entire family?? What a bunch of idiots!

          • racerrodig says:

            it appears she is gone, no stomach for being called out. She used several names back in June / July / Aug, all of which at face value were black woman’s names.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            “LJP is Sr……newbee is Fogen & Jr is mdmcruder805 / army02 for the record.”

            – – – – – – – – –
            do you know this for a fact? i know i found them to be insufferable, but am interested in facts.

          • racerrodig says:

            Several things. They have made hundreds of comments in 1st person that no one else would do. LJP writes just like Sr speaks as does newbee. They have all been baited into a conversation by experts then the trap was sprung and the hate erupted. Of course having a connection in the field who confirmed this with IP addresses helped……after we guessed correctly of course. I see one of my friends was there earlier and flat out told them the farce is over……bout time. I say we all do it.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            hmmmm …. i am generally up for a rumble. hey, do you remember when mdmcruder used to flirt with some muscle-bound ex cop in LA? what do you suppose that was all about?

          • racerrodig says:

            Back in the late summer. I have no idea what that was about. Remember badwolf62 badwold63 The Punisher…..all Jr.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            it was punisher that mdmcruder flirted with. badwolf would surprise me, he started off alright, insisting on an arrest, but then would completely lose it sometimes on racist rants etc.

          • racerrodig says:

            badwolf62 & badwolf 63 were different than the 1st badwolf.

          • fauxmccoy says:

            that makes a bit more sense then, about badwolf

          • racerrodig says:

            My take on the 1st badwolf was he is a racist of Biblical Proportions and was trying to “look” neutral. His rants gave him away.

          • ladystclaire says:


          • With the exception of the incredibly stupid shell-game deception that the defendant and his wife perpetrated on the Court at the first bond hearing to conceal his assets and his extra passport, I do not believe there is sufficient evidence to charge any member of his family with a crime.

            One possible exception is the sister who assisted in carrying out the scheme by permitting her bank account to serve as a temporary parking place for some of his funds.

            I am not saying that crimes have not been committed. I am saying that I am not aware of any evidence that they were.

            The efforts by Papa Z, Mama Z and Robert Jr., to demonize Trayvon, all of his supporters and the prosecution while endorsing the defendant’s provably false statements and justifying what he did are extremely offensive.

            However, they reveal much about who they are and what they believe. They are racist right wing wackos and the apple did not fall far from the tree.

            With each passing day and each public appearance they make, they only succeed in exposing the vile nastiness that consumes them.


          • @ladystclaire:

            How are you? They say the same drivel every single day. They constantly make offensive comments about TM, blame him for his death, ask why didn’t he contact the police on his cell phone if he was being followed, and they bring up his school suspension, why he wouldn’t have been an airplane pilot and that he had a juvie record (which he doesn’t). Just mindless garbage but I get back at them. I take a different approach with Daddy Z and Robert Z. I ask them why they do not discuss the evidence from The Discovery? The lack of DNA or blood on TM’s hands? Also, since I am a Nurse, I constantly pepper them with questions on why Fogen refused to go to the hospital despite such “alleged devastating head injuries from his alleged brutal beating?” Why he wouldn’t adhere to his own PA’s advice and see an ENT? If he had his nose allegedly broken wouldn’t he want to see a Specialist? Why didn’t he agree to do that? Why wouldn’t he want a CT. Scan or an MRI to see what devastating head injuries he sustained? If his head felt numb, and his nose was bleeding profusely, why didn’t he go to the hospital?? Then I post tru life examples of individuals who had sustained head injuries who died or ended up in coma’s or who suffered brain damage, They know that I know I stuff and so they cannot fool me with the allegations of Fogen getting his head bashed in.

            Then I always leave each post with the dialogue from the 911 phone call, and I ask them why they never discuss that phone call or its contents? Of course, I never receive an answer so that is how I deal with them. I tell them that they have no answer because it is what it is and it is going to also assist in convicting Fogen. They become so angry LOL! Then they have the nerve to write me privately which I never read and I have already informed these two sub humans not to write to me but to keep it on the public board! The entire family are disgusting, right wing racists!

          • racerrodig says:

            I do the same thing. They refuse to even travel down the evidence says road…..No. it’s if Trayvon had just, or if he was a good boy and not been suspended….blah, blah, blah. It’s very easy to rattle all of them.

      • truthforlisa says:

        I know what you mean. I still post sometimes on HP, and someone else e-mailed me privately to confirm that LetJusticePrevail is RZ Jr. and I already knew that Newbee100 is GZ.


        Are you serious? I have gone round and round with Newbee and the other one before, and never realized that I was speaking with the defendant and his brother. UGH, that actually makes me sick!

    • racerrodig says:

      X 2 and very strongly I might add.

  80. whonoze says:

    If you haven’t seen it, please look at my response to Tzar upthread.

    • If this regards the photo, I think it does not matter whether or not the photo was altered. The vital signs at the scene were more calm than mine are as I type this, the photo in the sally port was absolutely one of an uninjured person in no distress at all, and even if the photo with blood is 100% real and legit, it indicates, on a good day, something akin to a mild dust-up one might have in a weekday get-together of old man’s basketball.

      BTW, I really find that many of the supporters of this man and in particular his actions with his gun- I find these people to be pussies. Honest to God. I once had a 22-stitches soccer kick to the head that made this bullshit look like a shaving cut, and I never screamed, cried, hollered, stomped my feet, jumped up and down, sued people or pulled a gun on anybody.

      • whonoze says:

        It doesn’t matter to the Zimmerman trial at all. It matters to a Federal investigation into police corruption. I want Wolfinger to go down as much as I want GZ to get foged.

      • jm says:

        C-S: “If this regards the photo, I think it does not matter whether or not the photo was altered.”

        It kind of matters to me that the photo is altered in that someone is corrupt and trying to mislead the extent of injuries in order to justify the murder of Trayvon Martin.

        • Yes, I see this side of it now. I meant it to be regarding the extent of injuries presented at trial. Which kind of brings up another point: If tampering is discovered in the photos, it seems to me that the photos would be rendered useless for trial purposes.

          Fred will need to answer this, but unfortunately he is ill this morning (and was all last night). He was hoping to be well by morning and able to return to the blog, but at the moment he is pretty sick.

      • Malisha says:

        Fabulous and well made point, Crane. I don’t know anybody in their right mind who would expect people to believe they couldn’t do anything but squeak out “Helpme, Helpme” while a kid sat on them and punched their face and slammed their head. Jeez. When I was in grade school three guys jumped me in an alleyway and I got out of it in about 2 minutes with less fussing than Fogen. AND I was embarrassed that I was bruised up, not proud of it!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Exactly. Most people have had worse than GZ – even been assualted in worse ways and projected none of this narcissistic baloney.

  81. colin black says:

    Mary Davis…Sit back an take a break you should pop in now an again dont need to comment.Just maybe have a wee read .Christmas is nearly on us so perfect timeing to have a seista an get all thoughts of this odious man out our systems ..But remember its Trayvon an especialy his Mother Father Brother nearly Step Brother all his loved one an freinds.This will be there first Festive Season without him .After new years beleive me it wont be long untill June is hers an the defendant faces Justice please join us whenever you feel comfortable .An have a wobderfull Christmas to you an yours.

    • Yes colin black, we probably all do need a break, and I have to have some surgery,yuck, so I will be taking a break, for that.You are right, our thoughts should be with the family of Trayvon, they will have a hard time during the holidays. And yes after the new year, June is right around the corner. I can’t wait for the trial to start. Great comment.Happy Holidays to all.

  82. I respect what you say about the high Professor, and am in agreement. It is a challenge, that I can take. I post on HP and I am japanese girlsan. It is tough on that blog, but I will do my best. Back in may I said something similar, and a lot of Trayvon’s supporter’s agreed, but it did not last long in the other camp. A lot of good posters left, and I felt like it was my fault. Some have come back, but there are some that were wonderful still missing. I hope that they come back. I get all of your posts on my g mail account. I am impressed. Thank you to you Marinade Dave and LLMPapa.

  83. colin black says:

    Why waste energy humiliateing the defendant or makeing him look like a stupid liar whom trivialises his actions smirks dureing an interveiwe with Hannaity when S Y G Mentioned?ITs futile realy as no one does it better than the suspect/defendant himself..All his deluded talk of the masses an attempts to flog his autograph .You coulldnt make that stuff up.Like wise the demented raveings of his minorty support wich is dwinddling as I type.His own demented attorney is also doing him more harm than good.Firstly by not muzzleing him an his family .Secondly the gobblddiegook he is spouting totally unfounded statements an rumours dissproven evidence stated as if kosher.An he knows its false .At this point he no more than a car sales man trying to sell the biggest jallopy in history…..An therein lies his problem…With a car you can turn back the odemeter to show less miles.You cant turn back time to errease your own clients actions an words to explain said actions.

    • Rachael says:

      SPOT ON!

    • racerrodig says:

      Being in the car field, you can never turn back the miles. You can only make the illusion that such is true. The evidence is in the wear & tear…..The point is, if you look, the mileage is apparent if one knows how to look.

      O’ Mara……..are you reading this ??

      • Rachael says:

        Good analogy!

      • omar IS reading this!!
        FOR SURE! there’s no better out there and it FAMOUS! Ya know, he got the idea from Biaz. And he’s so determined to “use social media” it would be stupid of him NOT to read this one! he’s been reading all along.

      • grahase says:

        There are times when I think things will die down until trial. Then, BAM. Junior says something to rile people. Then, BAM, the defence comes out with more to stir things up and yet another website. Sometimes, I think to myself — this can not really be happening. I will wake up and find out that all of this is some freaky new form of reality show using MSM and Social media. I then realize – I am awake and am witness to most disgusting form of trying a case in the court of public opinion. The defence team and witnesses should have been gagged. I believe then and more so now, the prosecution should have been aggressive enough to show the judge it was necessary. Judge Nelson, opened Pandora’s box.

  84. Mary Davis says:

    @ everyone. This will be my last post. Not because of anything that anyone has said, but because I am getting a little too obsessed with this case. I will, however, continue to donate because what you guys are doing for Treyvon and his family are awesome. Please keep up the good work. I just know justice will prevail for Treyvon. Thank you Professor and everyone.

  85. nemerinys says:


    Thank you for this.

  86. colin black says:

    Sorry first half above was written by Xena…

  87. colin black says:

    Prediction 1. GZ will flee with or without the ankle bracelet. His first mission will be to find ShelLIE and talk her into getting back with him. The police will be called. They will take GZ into custody. He will be denied bond. Being in jail, he doesn’t have to worry about his living expenses. In the alternative ….

    Prediction 2. GZ will hold on after Judge Nelson denies his motion. When its time to go to court on the immunity hearing, he will overdose just enough to make himself sick and be taken to the hospital
    .If he has the were with all to attempt to flee..A destination an moneys to support his escape an relocation to a safe haven wich I doubt.But if the panic sets in an he does indeed go on the run..This is how I think he d stage it..He is driveing along with another?He is in his full kit bullet proof vest ect.All of a suden a white van swerves infront of them at an intersection .That just happened to be empty of any witnesses or cctv cameras.3 Masked males exeted the back of th shtruck guns drawn .An dragged poor georgie away screaming for help help…An then they flung him inside the van .Shut the back doors I could still hear him screaming for help an then bang no moore screaming an the van sped of..Erm no I didnt get a licance plate number?Coulor of the van..Mmm White..Colour of the kidnappers .?..Mmm they looked Black…They took george slamed one of those locking steering boots on the stearing wheel hand cuffed me to it.Plus took my cell phone an the ingition keys.

    • racerrodig says:

      Just like in the movies !!

      • Jun says:

        All movies with Fogen is not likely a well made production

        He’s gonna run, a citizen will recognize his face as the guy who stalked and killed a kid

        and then Fogen will be tackled by ATF LMAO

    • Rachael says:

      “find ShelLIE and talk her into getting back with him.”

      ?????????? What did I miss.

      I heard this rumor here – but I didn’t even know it was a substantiated rumor.

      Did I miss something?

      • Xena says:

        It’s not verified. Some here were of that impression before I discovered the docket entry in her case. She was mailed a notice to appear that was returned unclaimed. The “unclaimed” signifies it was sent by Certified Mail and would need to be signed for. With security at the safehouse, and if Shellie was still there, logic says that someone should have signed for it.

      • Rachael says:

        Yes, that is the rumor I am aware of, but again, I haven’t heard it anywhre but here. Did she or her attorney show up? Maybe there is some “security” reason (wink wink) no one is signing for her mail. Or maybe she did just get tired of it all and flew the coop. IDK.

      • sdunn5 says:

        @Xena I saw the docket entry too, and wonder why (if she is represented by this woman attorney) it would be necessary to send her a notice to appear by certified mail. I did not see any court appearance she has made since the arrest but I may be wrong, it has become very difficult to read anything regarding fogen et al.. Sounds strange to me. I hold your opinions on this case as extremely close to what I “feel” is the truth, most appreciated.

    • Dennis says:

      You said:

      “GZ will flee with or without the ankle bracelet. His first mission will be to find ShelLIE and talk her into getting back with him.”

      Is Shellie living with him right? If I were Shellie I would have to consider the frightening reality that her husband is a child molestor/murderer. I would take whatever deal I could arrange with the prosecution. Her husband is facing a potential life sentence which means she should start thinking about herself and her future without him. I don’t believe she will though. Most family members or wifes/husbands will always support each other no matter what the evidence says. I can’t even count how many times I have heard a family member say that their child is innocent when they are 100% guilty.

      • Dave says:

        It may be significant that Shellie wasn’t at the killer’s most recent court appearance. Maybe she has decided to cut her losses or maybe her lawyer told her “Stay away from that loser at least until your case is settled.”

      • Malisha says:

        My guess has two parts.

        Part I, IF Shellie has left Fogen: The story the family AND Shellie will promulgate is that Fogen insisted upon her leaving the home he is in, because he was so afraid of Black murderers that he wanted the risk to be less where Shellie went and she could not respond to court process because they feared that someone working in the courthouse would divulge Shellie’s whereabouts and get her killed. ALSO if Shellie was endangered in her new abode, someone could kidnap her and make the demand that Fogen himself come exchange himself for her as a hostage and he would have to choose between safety and exposing his beloved to danger and he would…etc. as per TV movie.

        Part II, IF Shellie has not left Fogen: They want to lie low until Fogen gets his ankle bracelet off and then flee, and one of Joe Oliver’s friends or Frank Taaffe’s friends has a website or another method of gathering cash which will be used for the escape attempt. So Shellie is not appearing at all in public now and not giving any indication of her whereabouts, even for court. Judging by Fogen’s behavior before he was arrested the first time, they’re making a plan that isn’t very smart and that relies upon everyone acting as THEY expect, but they’re not telling Shellie’s lawyer about it.

  88. Cercando Luce says:

    My peeve has been the much-ballyhooed anticipation of sexual activity in prison. Glad to hear it won’t take up thread space henceforth.

    But please, can’t we make jokes? Or word play? Is extreme sarcasm out?

    • racerrodig says:

      I vote keep

      References to “Bubba”
      Word Play &

    • You said,

      “But please, can’t we make jokes? Or word play? Is extreme sarcasm out?”

      We can do without savoring the prospect of Fogen as prison-bitch, a fate I would wish on no one. Rape is not funny.

      You can do all of the other things, as well as satire.

      Here’s an example. Instead of calling Fogen an imbecile, which he is not, say he thinks or acts like an imbecile, which he does on a regular basis.

      Instead of saying that he thinks like a fucking imbecile, skip the graphic descriptor and say he thinks like an imbecile. Good writers omit needless words and there is no quantifiable difference between thinking like a fucking imbecile and thinking like an imbecile.

      Remember to show and not tell. An accurate description of something O’Mara said or did carries more impact than calling him a lying scumbag or a thieving snake. I am not fond of scumbags but I kinda like snakes. I do not know the difference between a lying scumbag and a scumbag since I regard both off them as liars. A thieving snake is a thief. Unnecessary and meaningless modifiers are best replaced by telling what happened and let the words speak for themselves.

      Give it a try.

      • Dennis says:

        I agree. Rape is not very funny even when it is happening to someone you think deserves it. I think prisons are a nightmare for whoever is convicted. They do not serve the purpose of rehabilitation. It would be more humane to give Fogen a firing-squad than to stick him in prison for the rest of his life. I can almost guarantee they will keep Fogen in solitary since he killed a black teenager and also the fact that he is also an accused child molestor. Solitary confinement for 23 hours a day is very inhumane.

      • but i like saying fucking!!! It’s funny and there’s so many uses. Plus, for those of us who aren’t great writers ( and maybe a little light on vocabulary) it’s a extra adjective!
        c’mon, at least for special occasions. maybe on casual Fridays?

      • bettykath says:

        Dennis, No one deserves to be raped.

    • princss6 says:

      Agreed…prison rape is no laughing matter.

  89. Judy75201 says:

    This can be a challenge, but worth taking to heart.

  90. jm says:

    Professor: “Yes, I am dismayed by the reprehensible disregard for the truth and below-the-belt tactics that the defendant, his defense team, and their supporters use on a daily basis to misrepresent the evidence, promote the defendant’s false narrative, and demonize Trayvon, his parents, Benjamin Crump, Natalie Jackson, Dee Dee and anyone who supports justice for Trayvon…… We should never demonize or taunt anyone and that includes the pathetic defendant.”

    I am sorry if I have spoken badly about the turn of events in this case defense attorney’s and brother’s media blitz and the selling of autographs to raise money for Zimmerman’s living expenses and if I have offended some I apologize, but it is truth as I see it.

    Some people in the Zimmerman camp are greedy, some seek fame, some are evil, some a combination of all of the above. This is just my opinion. II guess I will need to refrain from commenting because I really have nothing good to say about the characters involved on the defense side including Chorge, his family and attorneys and am disillusioned by the way this whole case has become an ugly media circus beyond belief.
    After watching a day of BS on TV by the defense team, it was good to vent and see if others perceived comments as offensive and unethical as I did. If you prefer no one comments about the character of the people involved in the case I will be happy just to read the blog rather than comment. I defer to your decisions and judgement as well as posters who have been here long before I happened on this blog.

    • I was not even thinking about you when I wrote the article.

      Please do not misunderstand, Fogen and his supporters deserve harsh criticism.

      I am just asking people not to swear at or demonize them.

      Hold them accountable?

      Yes indeed.

      • jm says:

        Professor “I am just asking people not to swear at or demonize them,:

        It is very easy not to swear at them, it isn’t in my nature. Having said that, I do believe there are “demons” of greed, fame, fortune and recognition at any cost who affect people’s behavior and I believe we are witnessing that in the behavior of the people on Chorge’s team, and not limited to Chorge.

        This is just my humble opinion after watching the latest events including the media blitz and begging for money (from racists and misfits) via selling the autographs of a remorseless killer endorsed by the attorneys and the family.

        Not to demonize, but Team Chorge appear to be without a soul or a heart and are willing to do anything to win. Not sure if that is within the realm of what is in a defense attorney’s job description or how far family loyalty should extend.

      • Rachael says:

        jm – I think he was talking about me with regard to a previous post. I apologize and I know I get carried away sometimes. I will try not to let it get the better of me in the future, and even if it does, I won’t write it here. Thanks for the reminder, and again, I’m sorry.

    • Malisha says:

      JM, please, don’t stop commenting. Professor, I don’t know how to “not demonize” Fogen. I think to “not demonize” him I’d essentially have to “Undemonize” him. And whereas I might actually LIKE TO (I can imagine the exorcism right now and I’m getting all excited — have to take a cold shower!) I can’t do that.


      • whonoze says:

        Exorcism! Yes! Abbie Hoffman tried it on the Pentagon (or did he try to levitate the Pentagon, I foge-et). It didn’t work, of course, but it’s the effort that counts.

  91. sdunn5 says:

    Reasonable human beings see this photo and know it’s photo shopped. A lengthy diatribe about how you have dissected this extremely bad photo editing became hard for me to read after the first line of your post.

    • whonoze says:

      For centuries, reasonable people looked at the sky and KNEW, beyond doubt, that the Sun and Moon revolved around the Earth. Then Galileo made a close examination of the physical evidence and published a book confirming the Copernican theory of heliocentrism. For this, he was hauled before the Inquisition, forced to recant his views to escape death, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest.

    • Rachael says:

      sdunn, I consider myself to be a reasonable human being but I don’t “know” for a fact that it was photoshopped. I don’t know how to explain the discrepancy between what we see there and what we see at the station, but I do not KNOW that it was photoshopped.

      It is one thing to say you really feel like it was, something entirely different to say you know that it was.

      I have a hard time understanding how his nose could go from that to what was at the station, especially with no ice (and no application of ice was mentioned) and I feel like it very well was photoshopped, but I do not know for a fact that it was.

      • sdunn5 says:

        I feel most people “know” which in my estimation and with no disrespect to your post could mean i.e. “in their hearts”, “in their bones” etc. I “believe” it is photo shopped could we agree with that word?

      • An accurate statement of the issue is whether the photograph of Fogen’s face while he is sitting in the police cruiser accurately displays what he looked like when the photo was taken.

        The answer to that question is “No,” and we know that because we have the photos taken a few hours later at the station house with which to compare it.

        Whonoze, gbrsbg (or something like that) and some others who know something about the subject, have explained that there are inherent limitations or problems using jpeg photos taken with phones that cause distortions, especially around the edges.

        The important point is that the actual cause of the distortion is not very important to this case.

        We also have the argument that even if that photo were accurate, it still does not establish that Fogen was reasonably in imminent fear of death or serious bodily injury because he has admitted that he had control of Trayvon in a wrist lock with the police arrival imminent when he pulled out his gun, extended his arm, aimed, and fired.

        Those are Fogen’s own words and that is not self-defense.

      • bettykath says:

        I don’t know whether it was photoshopped or not but I’d consider a possible explanation for the differences between the cell phone photo and the SPD photo.

        There is an area on the left side of his nose that is reddish with a tiny cut near the top. His gun has enough recoil that if he fired it with one hand and a bent elbow, would it have hit him on the side of the nose? Could it be from the spent shell? I’m more inclined to think it’s the recoil in order to produce the swelling. Perhaps the swelling went down so quickly b/c his nose wasn’t broken and the kind of injury that the recoil would do might not need much time to recover.

      • bettykath says:

        I should read my posts for comprehension before I post.

        It’s the left side of his nose as you look at the picture.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Then study this and try to account for the distortions: http://tinyurl.com/co9ouag

        This kind of thing cannot be achieved without manipulation.

      • grahase says:

        Lonnie, I agree with you 100% – even more. If I had access to the equipment I had in my former profession as a Graphic Artist, I could replicate the photo because there was not much to do to it for a professional. Unfortunately, I do not even own the Photoshop program – just a tiny laptop. Whether or not we ever find out the truth about its humble beginnings is yet to be seen. The EMTs would include in their report the icing of the nose or at least a recommendation for doing so. My opinion, FWIW, this photo does nothing to prove injury. The killers brother even said in one of his interviews that GZ told him he was bleeding from the ears. I see none of that to have been true either.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          A single unnatural artifact, like facial proportions changed, that should not be changed, disqualifies the picture as evidence, but not as evidence that someone else has committed a crime.

          The prime suspect is the person who had possession of the photo and did not turn it in. Unless he can absolve himself, by providing another credible suspect, he’s going down for it all.

      • grahase says:

        Look at the difference in the shape of the mouth from one photo to the other! IMO, this shows more manipulation than the nose!!

      • truthforlisa says:

        grahase says:
        December 9, 2012 at 5:40 am
        Look at the difference in the shape of the mouth from one photo to the other! IMO, this shows more manipulation than the nose!!

        You’re right, grahase. It looks like whomever did the crappy photoshop job tried also to give GZ a fat lip to go with his broken nose. I also wanted to note, I never saw black eyes to go with that, only dark circles, most likely caused by lack of sleep.

        • Xena says:

          It looks like whomever did the crappy photoshop job tried also to give GZ a fat lip to go with his broken nose.

          Now, now. GZ was just puckering up to throw a kiss to Osterman. 🙂

        • fauxmccoy says:

          gz’s dark circles are hereditary. you can see them even in pictures of him as a boy and they get worse with age. as a studying makeup artist, it is just something i notice and it just occurs with some skin tones.

  92. whonoze says:

    Boy, people don’t know f-all about optics, digital photography and photo-editing.

    In my previous post on the bloody nose pic, I forgot to comment about the fact that GZ’s face looks thinner, or “out of proportion.” That’s most likely the result of someone making an error in downsizing or cropping the original to generate the image that has been distributed – a mistake that alters the aspect ratio of the photo, squeezing it from side to side. (This is what we call “anamorphic” in the digital media biz.) If someone was trying to cook the photo, they would not do this intentionally, in part because they would be trying to make the picture look authentic, not weird.

    As for the differences between the look of GZ’s wounds between the bloody nose pic and the photos from the station: the bloody nose photo was obviously taken in Smith’s cruiser before the paramedics came to clean GZ up.

    The most telling thing in comparing the photo at the scene to the photo at the station is that the swelling on the nose has completely disappeared. I’m not a medical doctor, but I’d guess that would happen if the swelling was caused by a blow to the side of the schnoz, and then iced down. I’d also guess that the swelling would not have receeded had GZ’s nose indeed been broken. So, to me, the bloody nose photo is just more physical evidence that GZ’s tale is full of lies, lies, lies.

    Here’s an attempt to put the bloody nose pic back closer to the correct aspect ratio (it’s a guess: there’s no way to tell exactly how much it was screwed-up, and exactly what percentage to expand the x-axis to fix it).

    This matches the pic from the station more closely in terms of the shape of his face. You’ll notice in the bloody-nose pick GZ’s head seems unusually wide at the top and narrows down by his chin. That’s because the cell phone cam has a wide angle lens, and was held at a high angle, making his forehead much closer to the camera than his chin in terms of the focus distance, thus appearing much larger. The PD station pics were taken with a longer lens at eye level, thus the facial proportions are not “distorted”.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      The photo is still a little distorted, but also still looks foggy about that swollen zit thing on the side of his nose as if it’s been played with digitally. Even if iced, I don’t think it would recede hugely in a few hours, so by the looks of the smeary spot there and the fact that it’s not there at all four hours later, I still think someone wanted to exxagerate the injury. And I could certainly be wrong. I betcha the person who did this wishes they hadn’t now . . .

      • Two sides to a story says:

        I mean distorted now in the opposite way – a bit too wide.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        OH, I meant to say thanks for doing this. I meant to play with this myself and now I don’t have to! I can see where it goes!

      • Tzar says:

        then photoshop or not, I can’t see any “black eyes”

      • grahase says:

        whonoze – it is not just the ratio that is wrong – there is NO blood coming out of his nostrils at the sides – clearly. The bop on the nose was, as per killers story, the first thing that happened. Not only would there be blood on BOTH inside nostrils. There would not be a big drip at the tip of his nose coming from apparently nowhere. A bleeding nose has a tendency to follow gravity into the mouth. Once again, he does NOT have blood along his lip line. Just two little swipes down the middle – not even a swipe to them. So, the proportions may be wrong. But, there is much more to the photo that appears to be faked.

        ps – Your expertise is already well-known because you remind us at almost every post. If your mentioning it means that your opinion is more valid than others, you are mistaken. Your opinion is just that – same as everyone else. None of us here has proof of the opinions expressed.

      • truthforlisa says:

        That nose would have swollen more, even after an initial icepack. The only way to keep the swelling down is to put ice on it 20 mins on, 20 mins off for the first 24 hours or so. I don’t see this happening.

    • Tzar says:

      I don’t know whonoze, is there nothing else in the pic that can be used to confirm aspect ratios?
      and even with ice; to have complete disappearance of the swelling, just five hours later seems unlikely to me

    • Tzar says:

      Lastly my friend
      even with your adjustments the width of the bridge of the nose when compared to that in the SPD pics still looks disproportionately small compared to their respective space between the epicanthic folds and the eyes.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Tzar, in the reenactment the next day, he had barely a trace of black eyes, and in the video entering SPD on the 3rd day after the shooting, the one in which we see Osterman for the first time, there’s none. If he had even the slightest of broken noses, he’d have more bruising than that. The broken nose claims are way off-base. Definitely he got clobbered, but the need to exaggerate by the defense is fishy.

        • racerrodig says:

          “The broken nose claims are way off-base.” And that’s the only thing undisputed about his alleged broken nose. Do you hear that Mr. O’ Mara !!

      • whonoze says:

        I noticed the bridge of the nose thing before I put the picture up, but I figured it was a trick of the angle or something. But I’ve just looked at it again… and, damn, it does look fishy. I was going to say that anyone with the Photoshop skills to fake that swelling wouldn’t be stupid enough to mess up the aspect ratio, but the squeeze kind of hides the weird line of the left side of the nose (GZ’s right side).

        I had looked at the pic before blown up to the point where I could see the individual pixels, and nothing had jumped out at me. But looking again at that curve of the nose on the left, I do see some pixel details that look like artifacts of editing. That doesn’t mean they are, given the resolution we’re working with, and the way JPEG compression works., But the fish is beginning to stink a little.

        So I hereby change my opinion. The pic may well indeed be ‘Photoshopped.’ If so, it’s not a hack job, and would have taken hours and hours of work.

        What no one has yet come out and stated is that if this picture was edited that implies a level of conspiracy within the SPD that few of us have imagined. It means that Wagner didn’t “forget” about the picture on his phone, but that he had taken it to some friendly computer graphics geek to cook up an image that would support GZs story.

        I apologize if I came off as a forensic Photoshop expert, which I’m not. People who know the field better than I do could render a better opinion. That is to say, they may be able to be conclusive where I am now not sure. However, I stand by my earlier statement that people (and it’s not just here) don’t know f-all about this stuff. In all the comments about the “Photoshopping” there was not one bit of evidence offered — Photoshop-wise. Just supposedly self-evident broad level comparisons that aren’t at all self-evident.

        If, say, five top experts in photo editing were to look at this image file and all agreed, “Yes, this has definitely been edited.” Then we have a MAJOR scandal at hand. Remember, this is the same photo that appeared in the awful hi-con B+W rendition in the discovery. IF THIS WAS EDITED, THE DEFENSE TEAM DID NOT DO IT! It had to have been someone in the SPD or the SAO.

        Oh, My, Foge-ing, God!

        I will work on a pic of that area blown up, illustrating the specific points that could be telltale signs of editing. It will take time, and I have to try to get some actual work done today, but I will follow up.

        • You said,

          “What no one has yet come out and stated is that if this picture was edited that implies a level of conspiracy within the SPD that few of us have imagined. It means that Wagner didn’t “forget” about the picture on his phone, but that he had taken it to some friendly computer graphics geek to cook up an image that would support GZs story.”


          I have imagined and written about such a conspiracy, recommending that Wagner, Serino, Lee, Wolfinger and the rest of the SPD brass need to lawyer-up.

          Serino retained Jose Baez.

          I’m not saying he reads this blog and followed my advice because I have never spoken to him or corresponded with him. I don’t know why he did it, but it was the right thing for him to do. I’m willing to give him all the credit for the decision.

          I don’t know about anyone else.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Hahahaha… I’m no expert but I photoshop pictures all the time on my blog, the preatorian blog not the evidence pile. I have Photoshop 5 and I’ve worked with CS3. You don’t need to be an expert to know that picture is edited/altered, just not with adobe photoshop, because that program leaves a header. Wait, I was looking at the combined work, but nah, Adobe headers don’t go away. If either picture was edited using photoshop the adobe header would still be there, instead there’s a microsoft lead-in. Of course to see that you’ll have to open the picture in a hex editor capable reader.

          Trust me, you’re not going to find an expert on the planet who won’t say that photo is edited. The picture resembles no person on this earth, because no person on earth looks like that, because of the impossible distortions.

          Simplify matters and stick to examining the red swath. You’ll note that it is the same feature as the one in the left hand photo, and therefore it should be in the exact same proportion to the surrounding features in the right hand photo, it isn’t. It’s been stretched.

      • Dennis says:


        The question is why doctored these photos. I can see only two answers:

        a) Police
        b) Defense team

      • Tzar says:

        whonoze says

        I do see some pixel details that look like artifacts of editing.

        not sure if you mean this but, I noticed immediately that the pixelation patten on the nose is less grainy and this over too large and too anatomically demarcated an area for me to think that it is an artifact

      • Tzar says:

        I would advise everyone to save the originals they downloaded from the defense website, I suspect we may see some more believable photoshop iterations of this pic slid into circulation if the heat about the first generation increases.

        and btw, now we have a good sense as to why Serino gave the SA a black and white low resolution copy, when he had such a perfectly “good” color copy.

      • Tzar says:

        Two sides to a story
        I sincerely can not concede at this point that Zimmerman got clobbered

      • grahase says:

        whonose – No one said the defence photoshopped the photo. It is not a new photo. Those of us that have been following this case know that it was the prosecution that entered the black and white in the first document dump. We have been awaiting the original. I guess you have been away for a few days. This was discussed the day the photo came out.

      • grahase says:

        whonoze – by the way, in a former life, I was a graphic artist. In my professional opinion, this is an altered photo.

      • Jun says:

        The pic also has no chain of custody. I read that the device used to take the picture, the original file from it, allegedly, was deleted and not available, so, having had the pic come up three weeks later, and the dimensions of his head are completely different from all of his other pictures, including the ones from childhood on up to court, which all have a chain of custody, the admissibility of this picture is in question

        The thing I noticed most is why his head all of a sudden got thinner in width, and the head elongated, and the chin is much more pointy and pointed off than in pictures that are taken at the station

        I also did a side by side comparison where the length of the eyes are the same with his police station photos and then the width of his head is so abnormal in the bloody nose photo, it becomes questionable

        so its probably in Wagner’s best interest, honestly, if the state just argues admissibility of the photo into evidence LMAO

      • Tzar says:

        Jun said

        The thing I noticed most is why his head all of a sudden got thinner in width

        but wait….the head got thinner but the nose got wider or stayed the same width?

        look carefully, I myself measured the noses
        In the new pic the nos