If You Open Your Mouth, I Will Kill You With My Bare Hands

Wednesday, December 5, 2012

Top O’ the Mornin’:

I settled on this heartwarming expression of affection today because I’ve said it to more than a few clients in the past to emphasize the importance of not talking about their case and it’s probably pretty close to what Jose Baez told Chris Serino recently.

Notice that we have not heard anything from Serino since we found out that he had retained Baez.

Every good criminal defense attorney prefers a wide open playing field with multiple options available to get around immovable evidentiary obstacles created by the client’s acts. Pity Mark O’Mara whose client added to that forest of obstacles with an impenetrable thicket of thorns composed of multiple inconsistent and conflicting statements.

Ay, Dios mio.

Hence, the Third Commandment:

The Third Commandment is thou shalt not fail to do everything within your power to silence your client because the prosecution can use everything he says about the case against him.

If you cannot shut him up, thou shalt withdraw from the case.

His problem is simple to explain, but not easy to solve.

Everywhere he looks, he sees a sign that reads, “You can’t get there from here.”

“There” being the fabled promised land of “Not Guilty,” on the other side of the vast forest and thicket of thorns and here being here, damn it, stuck on this side with the forest and thicket in between.

Aha, he thinks maybe he can get to the promised land by taking the road less taken.

Yep, Chris Serino did not want to charge the defendant and he is an honorable man.

Chief Bill Lee did not want to charge the defendant and he is an honorable man.

Norm Wolfinger decided not to charge the defendant and he is an honorable man.

Plus, they have that early Halloween photograph of the defendant costumed as a vampire in an orange jacket with the rubber nose that turns color and swells or shrinks on command.

There is a reason why it’s called the road less taken.

I wrote recently,

A focused police search for evidence to support a decision not to charge a person with a crime in a suspicious death case before an investigation has been completed is an example of a preordained conclusion in search of a factual basis to support it.

That is a cover-up, not a competent police investigation.

First, as I have said before, the opinions of the police and prosecution officials regarding the guilt or innocence of the accused in a criminal case are irrelevant and inadmissible. They are not evidence and Judge Nelson is not going to permit Serino, Lee, Wolfinger or anyone else to testify about their opinion and why they believed the defendant should not have been charged.

Second, the FBI is investigating the Sanford Police Department for possible civil rights violations and those three individuals together with others are likely subjects, if not targets, of that investigation. Therefore, they need to lawyer-up as Serino has done and keep their mouths shut.

Third, if they were to speak and tell the truth, they probably would admit that he should have been charged, but was not charged due to racist or other improper considerations. For example, Serino might say, “Yeah, the drone was guilty as sin and I was having one helluva time trying to figure out how to please Wolfinger and the Chief until Wagner and I came up with idea to photoshop the photo Wagner took. We about laughed ourselves sick painting that blood on his lips. Dweeb looked like a freakin’ vampire.

Fourth, if they lie, they likely will be looking at a perjury charge.

Fifth, oh well. You get the picture.

Desperation rarely produces sound decisions.

Like I said,

There is a reason why it’s called the road less taken.

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285 Responses to If You Open Your Mouth, I Will Kill You With My Bare Hands

  1. Patricia says:

    Mgs710. Don’t get caught up on photo copies of evidence
    Every thing in the evidence dump should be digitally or audio with
    Time and date stamps which should be forensically verified. That’s what I’m thinking to present facts to a jury.

  2. mgs710 says:

    Only the photocopy is in the dump, as far as I can tell. That’s curios to me….no date when it was entered into the evidence room.

  3. mgs710 says:

    I believe information like photocopies of GZ sitting in the police cruiser would be stored electronically and there would be a date as to when it was secured into the evidence room. Has anyone been able to ascertained such a date? I would think it would have been been include as part of the initial evidence dump.

  4. Dennis says:

    If this photo happens to be genuine, which I believe it is a fake, I don’t think it helps the defense at all. Here is why I think so:

    If it is genuine, it only further proves that GZ’s story is false because he claims that Martin put his hands over GZ’s nose and mouth and we know that no DNA was found on Martin’s hands or sleeve cuffs.

    If it isn’t genuine, it only further proves that GZ’s story is false because he does not have anything close to the injuries one would sustain from a beatdown of that magnitude.

  5. Dennis says:

    Frederick, if the GZ photo in the police cruiser is determined to be tampered with, can the defense get into any trouble legally/professionally from entering such evidence? If I was a juror and I knew that the defense or prosecution was entering in bogus evidence I would not believe another word they preached to me.

  6. Tee says:

    Do you know what I was interested in was seeing? the little scratches on his head the next day I wish they would have taken pictures of his head the day of reenactment that would have been very interesting.

    • Cercando Luce says:

      I now think the big knuckle bandages were not so much meant to dramatize the head and nose wounds(my first thought), as to hide the fact that they were so small.

      Another surprise is that those lacerations didn’t leave scars!

      • Patricia says:

        Oh yea tiny tiny and so life threating !!!! So life threating is bigger than 3 knuckleheads put together ??? Rock on malisha!!
        I like fogen name for gz fits his box of senerio’s best. Keep those cards and letters coming Fogen~~~~~~~~~slippery snake$$$$$$$

  7. acemayo says:

    Three minutes after GZ shot TM
    Graphic Picture of George Zimmerman’s Head Wound was taken
    By the request of GZ, the person who took the picture never say
    said GZ had swollen nose and was bleeding bad from his nose or took a picture
    of it
    Or if he did please correct me
    And tell where I can look it up

    • Malisha says:

      Comparing Ayala’s report to the photographs allegedly taken on the scene is interesting. Ayala mentions Cheorge mentioning that he was yelling for help — but only as an overheard conversation between Cheorge and the EMT.

  8. acemayo says:

    Where did GZ blood from his nose go
    By the picture he was bleeding real bad
    Where did the blood go
    It was not on TM
    It was not on GZ clothing
    A whole lot

    One of the witness or more
    who came just and look at GZ after the fight
    Did not say GZ was bleeding bad from his nose

    Where did GZ blood from his nose go
    The EMT did not put cotton balls
    In his nose
    So it did not go back into his body

    Where did GZ blood go
    We the picture
    Where is the blood

  9. acemayo says:

    If GZ was hit and fell to the ground
    This was not an control fall
    The part of his body that hit the wet grass or sidewalk
    Would show that has happen
    Also I meant to write
    GZ said that TM cover his mouth with his hand …………..

    • Understood, and very good points, acemayo.

    • Malisha says:

      Fogen says, has the NERVE to say, that Trayvon covered his MOUTH with “one hand” and his NOSE with “the other” and was pushing as hard as he could “to try to smother” Fogen. So — one great big thug-hand wasn’t big enough for Fogen’s nose AND mouth, Trayvon had to use TWO? And then, and then:

      Fogen’s evasive head-protection wriggle caused jacket to come up;

      Fogen “felt like” Trayvon “saw” his gun;

      Fogen “felt” Trayvon’s hand [he explains that at that point
      Trayvon took one of his hands off either nose or mouth] slide down his chest going for “THE” gun;

      THEN Fogen REMEMBERED he had “THE” gun;

      and THEN Fogen pulled out “THE” gun and aimed and made sure not to shoot his other hand and “fired one shot” [queer little shrug as if to say, “see, no prob”].

      So by the time he “fired one shot” Trayvon’s hands should have both been covered with Fogen’s blood.

  10. Maybe off-topic, but I had sort of a sleepless night thinking about the Martin family facing this first holiday season without Trayvon. I was listening to Wilson Pickett and Duane Almann singing Hey Jude:

    and it was performed at a time when there was great racial tension in the country. They were able to get past color, for once.

    Bottom line is, should we, as a website, create a virtual card or tribute or something during this difficult time? Has anyone else got any thoughts on this subject? I feel so sorry for the Martin family.

    • Sorry, Allman, not Almann. My middle name is Ahmann, so I mixed up the spelling, go figure.

    • Rachael says:

      I asked a similar thing a few blog entries ago – and if maybe there would be some way to get it to his parents so they know we are thinking of them. Only one person responded 😦

      • Fred is going to address it, we will get something going, I hope. As I have shared, I lost a close 16-year-old family member to a murder. That first holiday was a blur of horror, but the family received, and very much appreciated, the many cards and letters that poured in. It meant a lot.

      • Tracy Martin is on Twitter. It will get to them. Just something as simple as a tribute where folks come in and share a thought or two, would be meaningful, I think.

    • jd says:

      Great version of a classic song. Thanks for posting. But keep in mind that EVERY Wilson Picket and Otis Redding, and Sam and Dave, Eddie Floyd, etc etc record out of memphis/ Stax-Volt likely had Steve Cropper and Duck Dunn and a few other young white guys playing their hearts out alongside the black stars of the day, and often co-writing, arranging and engineering the recordings. Blues, Rock and Roll and R&B, soul, jazz, etc are all products of culture blending between not only black and white but (sadly) slave and master, Jew and gentile, immigrant and native cultures.

      It’s known as harmony for a reason, and we all benefit from having it in our lives. Increasing the level of harmony in any and all aspects of our lives is the goal.

      Happy holidays to all. As the poet said, “Let it out and let it in. Then you begin, to make it better. “

      • I thought about this, jd, and thank you. I found it absolutely beautiful, but I am not familiar with all the politics behind the music genre. I think the song has different meanings for different people, and I see it as a great comfort to address a painful situation.

      • A new post is going up, and you might want to reiterate these thoughts there as well.

    • Tee says:

      I had the same thought, I feel so badly for his parents. How can a mother wake up christmas morning without her baby. I pray for them, I pray that God bring them some peace.

  11. acemayo says:

    Let us look at GZ bloodly nose picture
    It is said this is taken after the fight
    It is said that the EMT clean his head but no his nose
    It is said he is geting into the police car to go to the station
    GZ said that TM cover with his hand more than once
    While he was yelling for help
    If this true
    than his blood would have been all over his mouth
    It would not be running striaght down from his nose

    • jm says:

      acemayo: “GZ said that TM cover with his hand more than once
      While he was yelling for help. If this true, than his blood would have been all over his mouth It would not be running striaght down from his nose

      Great point. A tall lanky teen’s hands would have spread blood further on the face than what we see on the altered picture.

    • Dave says:

      Also GZ’s blood would be all over Trayvon’s hands.

  12. jd says:

    “Wait just a cotton-pickin’ minute here” department:

    What evidence do we have that the FBI/DoJ is investigating the SPD for possible civil rights violations? I submit there in no evidence of this at all. The DoJ formally announced a probe into the question of whether GZ violated TM’s civil rights, no less, no more. I’ve seen or read almost nothing to indicate that the federal government is taking any action at all regarding the actions of the SPD and Norm Wolfinger’s office, and I challenge anyone to prove different.

    Were statements made by AG Eric Holder to that effect? Has anyone from the SPD been deposed, indicted, or served a subpoena? Have we seen evidence that there was an FBI/DoJ investigation of the SPD? If so, I’ve not seen it. ,

    In the very latest round of discovery, there is a SMALL hint that the FBI looked at least somewhat into the idea that George Zimmerman got preferential treatment from the SPD, as seen by a FBI summary of a shallow inquiry into the reasons for a note found on GZ’s cell phone regarding his comment to an unknown email recipient that he “received guidance” from a narcotics officer. It appears that SPD investigator Singleton was questioned by the FBI about this, and that she couldn’t come up with anything in her memory besides she told GZ “to make sure he was clear on the written statement he provided.” For whatever reason, the FDLE received a copy of a summary of this inquiry, and it got included as discovery. But it’s nothing the FDLE acted on, and it is at best a minor brush of action by the FBI. Is this the tip of an iceberg or just some crushed ice at the bottom of a shot glass? We don’t know. I suspect the latter.

    Yes, if they DID really dig into the inner workings of the SPD, it’s an “ongoing investigation” but only in the sense that they have yet to issue a report. We’ve no reports of anyone with a federal paycheck in his wallet working in the county once the Community Relations people completed their goodwill work, and the FBI photo op was over. (They put on big-letter FBI jackets and walked around the RATL, once, I heard.) At best, we are speculating in this regard.

    Various members of the Sanford city council and other “city fathers” paid lip service to the idea that the feds would eventually “clear” SPD chief Bill Lee of wrongdoing, but they are making self-serving comments only, and without proof. Don’t be fooled. They said these things in support of the idea of keeping him off the job but on the payroll indefinitely, and their side eventually lost. The chief got canned, and that’s probably the end of it.

    Norm Wolfinger quietly announced he was not running for office for the next term so that he could “spend more time with his family.” And that’s probably the end of that, too. And it’s a shame, because he’s either corrupt, incompetent or racially biased IMO and likely a combination of all three. He didn’t do his job, and an alleged killer walked the streets for two months until someone else did his job for him and charged the man with M2.

    The fact that Chris Serino retained a (famous on cable tv) lawyer also doesn’t tell us much yet, either. My guess would be that Serino’s concern is regarding the upcoming murder trial of GZ and whatever O’Mara might accuse him (Chris Serino) of, and how that might affect his career, not a fear of a federal probe of any sort.

    Again, for emphasis, what actual proof do we have that there was ANY probe by the Feds into the actions of the SPD and Norm Wolfinger’s office? I submit there is none whatsoever aside from speculation and bad reporting.

    • Eric says:

      Would the DOJ announce that they are investigating? I tend to believe that they would a policy not to comment about on going investigations.

      • jd says:

        What’s missing is not a formal announcement, I grant you. Whats missing is boots on the ground, subpoenas, photo ops of FBI agents carrying out hard drives and file boxes from SPD and Norm Wolfinger’s office and home, etc. etc., people retaining lawyers, depositions being taken, legislative investigative bodies having hearings being scheduled, and news reports about these and other actions – in other words, the sights and sounds of rats leaving a sinking ship. Has anyone seen anything like that at all? I have not.

        There isn’t even a “non-denial denial” on record about what they are investigating regarding Wolfinger and the SPD. The public perception that an investigation is ongoing, or in the works, is invented from thin air and a few misguided comments by Sanford city fathers who wanted Bill Lee to “be cleared” by a federal investigation and thus be reinstated to his job as police chief.

        Indeed, the valid point you make, Eric is all well and good, but what are you basing it on other than speculation and wishful thinking? I contend there is no “there,” there. Look hard and prove otherwise and I’ll stand corrected.

        • You said,

          “What’s missing is not a formal announcement, I grant you. Whats missing is boots on the ground, subpoenas, photo ops of FBI agents carrying out hard drives and file boxes from SPD and Norm Wolfinger’s office and home, etc. etc., people retaining lawyers, depositions being taken, legislative investigative bodies having hearings being scheduled, and news reports about these and other actions – in other words, the sights and sounds of rats leaving a sinking ship. Has anyone seen anything like that at all? I have not.”

          I do not expect to see that with the GZ case pending. The feds take their time.

          That said, I have no faith in the Holder DOJ to root out corruption. Anywhere.

          Yet, still.

          I hope.

          Sometimes that’s all I have, except faith over the long term and a sense of humor to get me through the lean times.

    • thejbmission says:

      Read this document

      Click to access sa_oliver_w48.pdf

      This witness (Protected Identity) doesn’t speak highly of SPD.
      This is recently released discovery. What’s the purpose of interviewing this person? This is from the FBI. If it’s not been officially announced, stay tuned because I think its coming.
      Maybe it’s SPD that are the racist pigs?? And GZ just happened to kill the right kind of kid??

      • jd says:


        Looks pretty benign to me. But thanks for pointing it out.

        I think the FBI may have taken a few statements from “squeaky wheels” in response to recommendations from Community Service representatives, or local politicos putting heat on the feds for some action, but I fail to see any evidence of the Feds leading a charge into the fray.

        And yes, we will all “stay tuned” but IMO it is NOT coming. YMMV. Time will tell.

      • Not sure what conclusions can be drawn from that May 2012 interview, except that the person is Black and owns and operates a store in the area. Probably wanted his identity withheld because he runs a business, was critical of SPD, and feared possible reprisal, if his statement and identity were publicized.

    • Malisha says:

      Angela Washington of the DOJ told me over the phone that they were still investigating the SPD, and that was in November. I frankly never expected a real, vigorous investigation. Washington told me that the investigation they were doing had been “announced” in their “written announcement” when the investigation started. I do know that pressure on DOJ cannot hurt because I frankly believe that once there is a true bed of government corruption, NO FEDERAL AGENCIES EVER REALLY LOOK INTO IT TOO DEEPLY and the reason I believe that is that: (a) government is a religion, and one of the principles is that the government god is appeased when you give him a nice sacrifice, and SPD has given two, in the form of Lee and Wolfinger; and (b) everybody has something on everybody else. If the feds were to really shake up SPD so roughly that all the thuggery, thievery, racism, sexism, and criminality fell out and their skeletons rattled their closet doors down, the particular feds investigating it would start to get picked off.

      That’s just my belief based on years and years of seeing mamby pamby cream puff IG investigations, corporate investigations, and even DOJ and NIJ investigations, come right down to the expenditure of a few hundred grand and then a report that says something very much like: We are satisfied that we did an investigation and now we have completed an investigation. I even saw a Pentagon IG investigation (of a colonel in the Army who raped his four children and then disobeyed two civilian courts, threatened one social worker, two Army psychologists and a civilian guardian ad litem) end with the sentence: No action was taken against the activists who brought this case to our attention, because had they not done so we would not have known that an investigation was needed.

      • jd says:

        Thanks Malisha. I can appreciate what you are saying. Like I said above, the “still investigating” posture seems fairly face-saving to me, and Ive not seen ANY hard proof that a credible outside investigation of the actions of the SPD and Norm Wolfinger ever took place.

        I get the feeling that if a local jury acquits GZ on all charges, the feds may respond, but I do NOT get the feeling they have done much to date. The time to “do the right thing” is before the horse gets out of the barn.

        BTW, that DoJ “written announcement” would be nice to see. It didn’t seem to be posted on the DoJ press release website last I looked. What occurred at that time according to my memory banks and limited notes was that Holder said very specifically that the DoJ was looking into the idea that George Zimmerman may have violated Trayvon Martin’s civil rights, and that the investigation would turn over every stone, etc but none of the language he used was at all specifically directed towards the SPD or Norm Wolfinger.

        I think the implied threat was there, post the grass-roots uprising, but the fact that the Florida governor appointed a Special prosecutor to the case tempered the federal response greatly – too greatly in my book. But it assuaged the public’s anger and the parade moved on. Wolfinger quietly announced his retirement, and while chief Bill Lee did not “go quietly,” he did GO eventually. And that will be the end of the white guys frying on the hot seat. And its a damn shame because this case was mishandled by those in positions of leadership and Norm is an elected leader, to boot.

        We will always have our George Zimmermans, whom I consider a run of the mill sociopath in a culture with easy access to handguns, but we need to be vigilant against corrupt and incompetent local officials like Bill Lee and Norm Wolfinger. I’m glad justice seems to be coming for GZ but it is a disgrace that Lee and Wolfinger slipped out the back door relatively unscathed.

    • well i think Holder mentioned the investigation into the performance of the SPD. and it’s more clear from the recently released docu dump there’s evidence of racial bias withing the SPD. who’s to say there’s not more damning evidence the FBI hasn’t released. the doj is investigating too. neither one of them have an obligation to release what they’ve gathered.

      I think it’s a big deal the COP was fired and wolfinger has to announce he’s not running for another term. These types of things wouldn’t happen were it not to mitigate some wrongdoing. Those two didn’t do it for NO REASON..maybe they both are just trying to cover their asses and hoping for a lessor punishment by not fighting back? Or maybe they’re preparing to make some deal to supply information on others…

      When you think about this in it’s context we’re looking at a small, hick town. Not some major metropolitan city with hundreds of powerful corrupt officials to worry about.
      Now the world is watching Sanford Florida! And why would the FBI and DOJ be afraid of Sanford Florida? If not, why would they cover up the corruption they find during this investigation?

      It’s not over yet. Everyone can see a thorough spring cleaning in Sanford Florida is sorely needed. Why not take this perfect opportunity to improve Florida’s (horrible) reputation in the eyes of the world!?

      • Come on now.

        They’re just good men who want to pursue other opportunities and spend more time with their families.


      • jd says:

        Not to be snarky, shannoninmiami, but please check your facts.

        You “think” Holder mentioned investigating the SPD, and that puts you in the majority of casual observers. However, unless and until you can produce the quotation and cite the article or press release, I beg to differ. I looked for a long time and that isn’t what I read or heard him saying. Sorry.

        The mission of the Feds, as stated was to see if George Zimmerman violated Trayvon’s civil rights. It’s “hate crime” territory they are looking into.

        By no means the definitive account of Holder’s words, but here is one article that shows how carefully he crafted his words on this topic.


        Attorney General Eric Holder indicate today that the feds will have a higher bar to establish that the shooting was a hate crime.

        “For a federal hate crime we have to prove the highest standard in the law it is something that was reckless, that was negligent … We have to show that there was a specific intent to do the crime with the requisite state of mind,” Holder said.

  13. mgs710 says:

    I looked and I couldn’t find anything. Just the photo copy but no write up when it was submitted into evidence. I have to assume it was on 2/27 the morning after the shooting. Someone is asking me about it.

  14. mgs710 says:

    Does anyone have any official documentation as to when the black and white photo copy of Zimmerman sitting in the police cruiser was placed into evidence?

  15. Xena says:

    Another Twitter request. We’re up to 974 signatures. Let’s see if we can get a thousand before Friday.

    Please tweet @apa1906network
    with the following; http://www.prweb.com/releases/prweb2012/12/prweb10196279.htm


  16. Look at the direction the blood is running.How the he!! does blood run towards the ear if you’re lying down on the ground?


  17. acemayo says:

    It seem GZ and Halle Berry ex boy friend, Gabriel Aubry got into a fight that are alike
    in some ways, both got thier head sham into concrete, look at both men pictures
    after the fight and a few hours later , I guess TM did not hit hard, GZ face does
    not look like Halle Berry ex boy friend, Gabriel Aubry after the fight or later on

  18. acemayo says:

    Why do new people only want show GZ bloody nose photo as he
    go in the police car but not when he got out, if blood was all over
    GZ head his shirt neck line will show blood, his jacket, it looks like
    he just got them from the cleaner also why do we no see a back
    picture of him it should show where he was laying in wet mudde

    • Jun says:

      It was too difficult to photoshop it in all of the pics so Wagner just chose the one pic

    • ladystclaire says:

      THANK YOU! These Moron’s at the SPD as well as O’money is trying to run an Okie Doke on people of this country. but, the thing with that, only the common sense folks now a rotten apple when they smell one. I would love the chance to kick his fat @$$. he’s not so bad, without ShelLies gun to protect his cowardly @$$.

      • @ladystclaire

        I’m so there with you. I’d like to kick a boot up his sorry behind.

      • Xena says:

        I would love the chance to kick his fat @$$.

        Now, now ladystclaire. That would be too good for him. I say take him to LA where there are Latin gangs and set him loose on the street without his gun. They’ll take real good care of him. 🙂

    • Here is a view of Zimmerman’s back at the police station. No wetness, no wrinkles, no nothing. A neat clean jacket.


      • Looolooo says:

        Shirt all tucked in nice and neatly, with NO visible wet/grass stains on his back, butt, pant cuffs, and not a drop of blood anywhere to be found on his light gray shirt. And I won’t even mention the lack of large bruising, gashes, or swelling on his cro-magnon-like noggin. Oh, and not a trace of bruising where Trayvon would’ve gripped his head in order to bang it againt the concrete repeatedly.

        Me thinks Cheorge’s newly juicy derriere is gonna make for a popular cell block party favor.

    • Xena says:

      @acemayo. GZ’s supporters have always cherry picked from discovery material whatever they feel supports that Trayvon was a thug. They seek to switch parties of who is actually awaiting trial.

  19. Here is a photo of Zimmerman at the police station 35 minutes after killing Trayvon Martin. Look at his nose. Compare this photo to the bloody nose photo.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Big difference in only 35 minutes . . . Looks like he’s thinking about that diaper, LOL. And he doesn’t have that big zit any more.

      • I become furious everytime I view that photo shopped pic. I could SMACK the taste out of the mouth of whomever took that picture. Who the hell do they think they’re fooling? I hope he suffers for everything he has done.

    • ladystclaire says:

      It’s obvious that this is a photo shopped picture of the “CRIMINAL” and, who ever did this photo shop should be held accountable. it’s so obvious that it can be seen even with a blind man’s eye. this is nothing less than someone playing dirty in order to help this SOB avoid going to prison where he belongs! it’s not enough that he took Trayvon’s life, now they continue to LIE on him as well.

  20. Malisha says:

    It’s not our job to explain away George’s insignificant injuries. He did not get them in a near-fatal beat-down. HAD he gotten them in a near fatal beat-down or even a FATAL beat-down, that would not have changed the fact that he was the aggressor. If you are the aggressor in a confrontation where the other guy stands his ground, you do NOT get immunity from injury. If you get hurt, that’s the breaks in a state where the other guy is allowed to defend himself against an aggressor.

    I swear: it’s like some countries who start a war and then when they sustain casualties they cry about being brutalized. If you set out to capture some a55hole, expect that you might get a bonk on the head and a bloody nose for your efforts. Doesn’t justify you hauling off and murdering your targeted (and announced) prey.

    Perhaps George’s real plan was to apprehend his a55hole and get the guy into enough of a fight so that Tim Smith had to “accidentally” kill the guy in a “good shoot.” Zimmerman was fascinated by cop-shoots.

    • blushedbrown says:

      The voice of reasoning. Thank you Malisha.

    • cielo62 says:

      > ” I swear: it’s like some countries who start a war and then when they sustain casualties they cry about being brutalized.” > > I’ve discovered that at least THIS argument still will not change people’s minds. Israel puts up with too much. But then get punished when defending herself. I guess countries and people aren’t judged the same way. >

      Sent from my iPod

  21. Xena says:

    I wonder if Wagner is left-handed, and that is why he put the lump on the right-side of GZ’s nose? Since GZ shot with his right-hand, and with ONE hand, I am still wondering if the recoil or “kick” of the gun is what hit him in the face.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Even if GZ did get punched smack in the center of the face by right-handed Trayvon, he could still end up lumpy on the right side rather than the left side. I was punched by a right-handed individual square in the center of the bridge of my nose and lower forehead, and ended up with a little fracture at the top righthand side of my nose. And had a copious nosebleed and prominent raccoon eyes that lasted for over a week. If Tugboat didn’t bleed much, or if it ran down his throat instead, he’s lucky or else he didn’t get punched all that hard and maybe not at all. We might be seeing his run into a sign or a tree deal.

      Not that I’m any fan of the Tugboat or of SPD. And the photo does look altered in comparison to photos taken a few hours later. It appears there probably was some real swelling there that’s been exaggerated. And some real nose flattening that’s been exaggerated as well, by the looks of the proportions of the comparisons of various photos. I’m not certain about the blood – it looks real in the moustache but too red and brushed in on on the lips.

    • bgesq says:

      I@Xena- I agree with your recoil/kick hypothesis- and since GZ is left handed, he may not have had such good control/coordination shooting with his right hand, and he may not have been able to control that recoil/kickback with his non-dominant hand as well as he might have if he had used his dominant hand. Also, perhaps someone with medical expertise could analyze whether that type of contact/force would cause the nose to swell acutely, then subside quickly- as compared to the type of swelling/injury that would take place from repeated blows to his face.

      • Xena says:

        @bgesq. Thanks for your agreement. I would like to see one — just one demonstration of firing a Kel-Tec 9 with one hand to see what the kick is like. In all of the videos I can find, the people shoot holding the gun with both hands. If GZ never shot using one hand, he would have no idea of the kickback or recoil.

        • blushedbrown says:

          Video shows problems with that particular gun. Some of the shots are fired with one hand. Also, listen careful @ 1:29 the sound of him priming or racking the slide. Sound familar?

        • blushedbrown says:

          Look at this video, He is a big guy using two hands and it has alot of kick.

        • blushedbrown says:

          Don’t know if it posted, if it did Prof please delete one or the other.

          • Xena says:

            When GZ takes the stand at his immunity hearing (and he will have to), I’d like the prosecution to question him on shooting with one hand, and if he anticipated what the kick would be like — how he prevented the kick from hitting him in the face.

          • blushedbrown says:

            6 months away seems along time but its not. Time is ticking. We soon shall see.

      • Tee says:

        You are right that’s exactly what I have been saying from day 1 his gun did that to his nose.

  22. Esentrik says:


  23. Tee says:

    Did he ever point out the place when he was getting his head beat on the concrete? I’m sure that should have been a big question the SPD should have asked and photographed I would have love to see the blood on the ground some type of testing done on the area. Do anyone here know if he pointed it out for LE?

    • Xena says:

      Did he ever point out the place when he was getting his head beat on the concrete?

      He sure did — the same spot where he said he shot Trayvon — about 40 ft away from where Trayvon’s body, cell phone, and GZ’s tactical flashlight were found.

  24. Jun says:


    I just made another observation

    if u look at his joke glasses nose pic with the blood

    the blood from the tip of the nose connects to the mustache straight on like a spiderman web shoot LMAO

    such a bad photoshop

    they did not even bother to make the blood 3 dimensional

    the blood is just one shade hung in front of the mustache LMAO

  25. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< £ see my hurt paw? Can't keep up the following pace!

  26. jimmyxxx said 1 day ago:

    I’ll never understand how anyone ever believed the whole self-defense lie.

    He goes from getting his ass kicked within an inch of death to being Rambo sitting on top of a fresh kill in a matter of moments! Just seems obvious that someone who was that close to death wouldn’t turn things around so quickly, even with a gun in tow.

    And he says he only shot Trayvon because – after several minutes of vicious sidewalk head-smashing, bringing George within moments of certain death – Trayvon began to reach for his gun. Which was it, bro? Were you afraid of the head-smashery, or the gun being used against you? And if you had control suddenly despite the near-death head-beating, why couldn’t you have done that earlier, at the beginning of the MMA beat down? Grab your gun and point it at your would-be black gangsta MMA thug killa, so he would stop beating you up like a black gangsta.

    It’s just such a dumb story. People who believe any of it hate blacks and would love to pull a Zimmerman one day if given the chance.


    thought i should share this comment i found today. Wise one!

    basic break down in a simple, easy to understand summary of known facts!
    I think this is the typical juror. I HOPE this is THE jury!

  27. Judy75201 says:

    I don’t believe that george set out to murder. I believe it was a crime of opportunity, and the moment he said that the assholes always get away is the moment he turned into a stalker who was not going to let that happen again. He stalked and bagged himself one of those “assholes”. I believe his injuries were caused by the butt of his gun; whether self-inflicted or friendly fire I have no clue. Listen to the tape. You can hear the change come over him in his voice.

    • Tee says:

      That has been my theory from day one,that this was simply a crime of possibility. Once he decided he was getting out of that car he had to set the tone for the possibilities of what could happen. he was not fearful because he had his gun he knew that Trayvon was not a man and he was going to catch this kid doing a crime I don’t think it was racism on his part I think that it was racism on the SPD part. I do think that the color of his skin & his hoodie attracted Zimmerman I think it was his prejudice that set all of this in motion. Also I believe that he do have some mental problems that have not been adressed or treated.

      • Judy75201 says:

        And, I wonder if George may have also been motivated by a desire to impress Taaffe and Osterman.

      • grahase says:

        If he did NOT intend to kill Trayvon — what would he be detaining him for. He has no reason, in fact, no right to detain anyone. How was he going to come up with a reason for calling the police & detaining Trayvon. What crime was Trayvon committing. I do not believe it was a crime of circumstance. I believe it to have been pre-meditated. He just killed a good kid. His second mistake. The first one was calling the NEN.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @grahase, George Zimmerman IMO did exactly what he set out to do the moment he saw Trayvon. he had every intention of killing him and, that is the truth. if he did not have killing him on his mind, why the hell did he shoot him as he begged for his young life? this was every bit a premeditated murder of a child, committed by FAT @$$ TUGBOAT!

      • Looolooo says:

        @Judy75201…… my sentiments exactly.

    • Tee says:

      @ GrahaseI think that his initial thoughts where just to catch him committing a crime so that he could gain the accolades that come with it. I don’t think he set out to kill Trayvon, but I do think he knew that it was a possibility that it could happen and he wasn’t afraid to do just that. This is why he starts off the way he did with the NEN call, this is exactly why he set things up as he did in that phone call. Looking at Trayvon on video that night we all saw that he didn’t appear drunk or on drugs as Zimmerman stated” this guy looks like he is on something.” Zimmerman had to set up the possibility that if things went down wrongly he would kill Trayvon in a heart beat & that is what he did. I believe he really thought he was going to stop a crime from occurring. What he didn’t count on was trayvon defending himself, what he didn’t count on is the out pour from millions of people, what he didn’t count on was that tape of Trayvon screaming for his life and what he hadn’t counted on was people like us that blog everyday scour over the evidence compare and contrast everything thing he said or did that night, no he was confident that he was in the clear just looking at him the next day at the police station with his sun glasses hanging from the front of his shirt ( putting sunglasses on a broken nose should hurt right?) yeah, he didnt count on any of this.

  28. Dennis says:

    I don’t know if I understood correctly. Serino is using Jose Baez as his attorney?

  29. grahase says:

    Intersesting video regarding Tugboats injuries:

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Thanks all! Interesting day!

    • wow! i didn’t see that! thanks grahase!
      sanford watch!

    • blushedbrown says:

      Thanks for the video.

    • Malisha says:

      Where is it written, in the law, that if a “good guy” decides to follow and restrain a “suspicious guy,” that the “suspicious guy” is not allowed to be the better fighter, and is not allowed to do some damage before the “good guy” kills the “suspicious guy.”

      I know it must be somewhere in the law because everybody in Florida has already assumed it to be the controlling issue. In other words, for Trayvon Martin to be innocent enough that the law would prosecute someone who chose to kill him, he’d have to either (a) be so totally inept at self-defense that he couldn’t even get a lick in; or (b) realize he shouldn’t be a thug because the other guy is the “good guy,” and therefore not even TRY to defend himself.

      I’m sure it’s in the law somewhere in Florida. Someone help me find it. It might go under the common name of the “Good Guy Law” or the “Do not try to defend yourself if you’re suspicious” law. GGL? DNTDYYS law? I’m sure it must be there.

      • Tee says:

        My question is this, when are these laws going to start to protect our children, Our everyday citizen who are minding there own business & dares to speak up for him or her selves. people should not be made to fear disagreeing with someone in public for fear of being shot & killed then victimized again in death because they dare to defend themselves whether verbally or physically. No one gave Zimmerman or Dunn the authority to stop & say anything to these young men, had these young men been truly thugs I will bet all, that neither Zimmerman nor Dunn would have approach these boys. It’s a shame when we must give up our 1st amendment right just so we’re not shot . who’s protecting Trayvons rights who’s shouting that’s it does matter if Zimmerman looked like ground round that night his ass should have stayed in his car because he had noooo authority to follow question or detain this young man. I’m too mad right now because Zimmerman is a COWARD he knows it and so does his wife.

        • Xena says:

          No one gave Zimmerman or Dunn the authority to stop & say anything to these young men, had these young men been truly thugs I will bet all, that neither Zimmerman nor Dunn would have approach these boys.

          In the same manner, no one gave Dooley (a 71 yr old Black man) authority to say anything to the boy skateboarding. James, (a White man in his 40’s), mouthed off to Dooley. Dooley was washing his car and had a loaded gun on him. He walked across the street and gave James a stare, then turned to walk away when James stopped him. The 2 men ended up on the ground with James on top. Dooley shot James in the heart, killing him.

          The jury found that when Dooley left his garage with a loaded gun, he was the aggressor. The “heart” of self-defense says that you cannot create conditions that place you in a position to defend yourself.

          Keeping the “heart” of the law in mind, Zimmerman and Dunn are the initial aggressors.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Tee, I wish I could shake your hand but, since I can’t I will just tell you that I agree with everything in the above comment from you. this shooting and killing of young men who are bothering no one, needs to STOP! it just seems as though it’s open season on black males in the state of Florida. which is why I don’t want my son, taking anymore moves to the state of Florida for United Van Lines.

  30. Jun says:


    It says that they are vested to

    “prosecute crimes committed against the people of the State of Florida”

  31. Jun says:


    This is what I found off the Crump page on facebook

    It says any state, county or municipal officer can arrest any suspect anywhere and from my understanding, Corey is a state officer as she is a State’s Attorney, therefore she can prosecute and charge anyone within Florida STATE

    It even says for fresh pursuit and arrests outside jurisdiction that the people in charge of law enforcement in that county she is arrested in be given a heads up and a judge signed off on the arrest for her

    So… I dont think she is gonna walk from the charge…

    It also says that they want any criminal sought after in fresh pursuit be brought forth to a judge with no unnecessary delay

  32. After reviewing the Executive Order appointing Angela Corey, I am now certain that the prosecution of Shellie Zimmerman for perjury is authorized by the order because it specifically directs her “to discharge the duties of the Honorable Norman R. Wolfinger, State Attorney for the Eighteenth Judicial District of Florida as they relate to the investigation and all matters pertaining to the death of Trayvon Martin.”

    Prosecuting her for committing perjury at the defendant’s bond hearing to conceal his financial assets and obtain a lower bond is a duty that SA Wolfinger would have had to discharge as a matter pertaining to the death of Trayvon Martin.

    As I said earlier, the argument is ridiculous.

    Thanks to Blushed Brown for the link.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      I guess Shellie wants to roll those dice regardless of the bad odds. It seems to me that even if GZ were to walk away after a self-defense hearing (unlikely) that she could still be in deep doo-doo.

      • Dennis says:

        I assume she is not very intelligent. I hope when she is eventually convicted, the judge throws the maximum sentence at her. The courts are very slow and the last thing the judge wants is for you to waste her time.

        When you are guilty, the best advice a lawyer can give you is to take the damn plea bargain. I have a friend who’s older brother got into some serious trouble. He was facing 8 or 9 charges and they offered a plea bargain of 3-6 years in prison. He rolled the dice, lost at trial on every count, and he is still in prison to this day. He has been in prison about ten years to my knowledge. When you roll the dice and lose, the house wins and you are screwed.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Oh, another question. Reading that order myself – the assignement only goes through 22 March, 2013. What happens to these cases then? Does the order get extended or does the jurisdiction change?

    • Jun says:

      Hey Freddie

      What happens after March 22, 2013?

    • ladystclaire says:

      With all due RESPECT to the utmost, to you professor. IMO Norm Wolfinger is not honorable at all! I am not saying anything against you because, I RESPECT you very much and, I’m glad Trayvon and his family have got you and the rest of the good people here on their side. Norm Wolfinger was more than willing to let this SOB go free on his lies alone. no through investigation be damned, this was the son of one of his bff’s and, his made up lies was the gospel. this man needs to have some charges brought against him as well as those in the SPD who took part in trying to cover up this murder of an innocent child.

      • Patricia says:

        Ladyclaire, well said ! To give you a little more insight on the bubba system in all seminole co –google this web site: seminole watch.com I know of these players when I lived in sanford,
        Lake Mary . Also malisha on those police reports and 47pgs of gz nen 911 or anonymous calls — the old ones were to lmpd(lake Mary police dept) then around pg 31 when gz moved to RTL Most are labeled “tel” (nen). Google “mother jones trayvon Martin all the docs audio and PDF files are all on this web site I printed everything so I could quick check ref instead of jumping from one site to another. Going back myself I found three answers to previous post.
        Offence report- actual crime. Event report – all gz calls and the is only one– arrest report of the kid that stole the Xbox he was only 15 yrs. finally gz written report where he makes ref to trayvon as a suspect 18 times. And it was signed by singleton ,I find it hard to believe she would not read what she signed. I think she did a fine job of nailing him on fears of trayvon. Woofy was treating gz as the victim not kid. Prelude to a murder in my book. Motive mean and opportunity for gz.

        • ladystclaire says:


  33. grahase says:

    OK everyone – InSession moved Tugboat to 2:30 EST. You have 3 minutes.

    • jm says:


      From what I saw was In Session never once showed the comparison picture from a few hours later at the police station of Chorge’s normal nose to the first one where he had the Mr. Potato Head nose. I was hoping they would discuss the differences in the 2 photos but this was not done.

      The general consensus from commentators was the picture was not photo-shopped because it was taken in police cruiser (?!?).

      • Malisha says:

        His condition is irrelevant. One punch would have broken both HIS NOSE and Trayvon’s knuckles. Trayvon was, furthermore, entitled to punch Zimmerman in the nose. I wish he HAD. Then maybe George would have dropped his gun, stumbled in the wet grass, fallen down again, and given Trayvon a chance to run away.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        So they ignored the fact it was taken with a personal cell phone and sent to a personal computer?

        • jm says:

          TSTAS says “So they ignored the fact it was taken with a personal cell phone and sent to a personal computer?”

          I was a minute late and the discussion had already begun but from what I saw was a surface discussion of the picture itself and the implications of the injuries on Chorge’s credibility. They compared pictures of the back of his head that looked like one was at the scene earlier and one later in police station but never once compared the Chorge Mr. Potato Head nose picture with the later normal nose pictures of Chorge nor did they discuss the difference and how this change in nose “damage” from abnormal to normal could have happened in a few hours.

          I realize Chorge’s nose won’t make or break the case but it is maddening that if someone is going to discuss a topic they don’t discuss all the facts surrounding the controversial picture.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Thanks for your commentary, JM. Even OM says the photo doesn’t change much . . . we’d sure love to know why the color version took so long to surface – hope we’ll know someday.

      • Tee says:

        I don’t think the media want to involve its in trying to discredit Zimmerman anymore.

      • Malisha says:

        None of this says whether or not any of the pictures will make it into EVIDENCE at the TRIAL. Nothing about the twitters, high school records, medical records, or any of that previously discussed at pretrial hearings had anything to do with whether any of it will be admissible evidence at the trial either. These discussions and rulings are not about admissible evidence. They are about presumed things that will be put forward by someone as offerings of evidence (proffers?) and then the judge will rule. I don’t think any of this is worth worrying about. Real blood? Photoshop? If real blood, George’s own or Trayvon’s smeared around after the killing? Enough blood (remember him asking a bystander, “Do I have blood on me?” after he allegedly “had blood all over and in my eyes and I couldn’t see”) to indicate serious injury? And if so, how did Trayvon avoid getting blood on HIM during the beating? And even if so, why shouldn’t Trayvon beat up someone who was trying to kidnap or kill him?

        None of it means anything to me other than “B-Movie Drama from the ZimCamp full of sound and fury signifying nothing.”

        • jm says:

          Malisha says: “None of it means anything to me other than “B-Movie Drama from the ZimCamp full of sound and fury signifying nothing.”

          Well I’m not fretting about it either but what it means is there may be more credibility given to Chorge by the general public who do not follow the case as closely as we do and more donations coming in to Chorge and ShelLIE which will lift their spirits. I want Chorge to stay fearful, on major drugs and to keep eating.

          The latest spin/picture also portrays Trayvon as a thug for beating Chorge “the guy who was just trying to keep his neighborhood from people like Trayvon” who according to this picture will beat you if you approach them. It just adds to the racial divide if the commentators don’t address the bigger picture, which is when commenting on the latest MOM picture they mention the pictures police took 3-4 hours later.

          I despise BS double-talk trickery MOM has been using and I hate the idea that only one-side of this picture is discussed without all the story behind the picture’s final arrival to MOM who is using as propaganda.

      • Jun says:

        LOL I kind of feel sorry for people if they seriously can not see that Cheorge is a damn liar and a murderer

        & to be honest, even if we were going by his picture, it only proves he had a bloody nose and a nose that looks like one of those joke nose glasses we played with as kids

        That does not conclusively prove it was self defense

        1) He could have murdered the kid and staged it to try and bolster a self defense claim so he doesnt have to go to prison. I can name cases off the top of my head where defendants were caught staging the scene.

        2) The photo could be a photoshop LOL

        3) Just because if he truly does have a bloody nose, it could simply still mean he was trying to terrorize and kill the kid and the bloodly nose is defensive action from the victim while the defendant was trying to kill. Lots of defendants have gotten injured and scratched while the defendant was trying to harm them, hence one of the procedures is to scrape the fingernails.

        & besides, there was no dna at all on the victims hands from the defendant, there are numerous inconsistent and contradictory statements or plain flat out lies, the defendant instigated the whole turn of events, the defendant was committing a forcible felony while killing, and the defendant was never in any real danger of imminent great bodily harm or death – Skittles and ice tea vs a GUN and a crazy adult male with a vast history of violence and manipulation and harassment and instigation

        its not tough math at all

        kid with candy walking home vs stalker chasing him with gun and violent persona

      • KA says:

        How is the “cut” on the right side of the nose bridge if Trayvon was right handed and punched him square on?

        I think he was back handed with an arm when Trayvon was trying to get up (when DeeDee heard “get off me”).

      • “The general consensus from commentators was the picture was not photo-shopped because it was taken in police cruiser (?!?).”

        Bizarre. Apparently, they forgot the corruption that led to no charges being filed, an FBI investigation, and the appointment of a Special Prosecutor who filed a second degree murder charge after reinvestigating and reevaluating the case. Now the cops are presumed to be angels again.

        Difficult to have any respect for people like that.

      • Dennis says:


        The prosecution is going to say something like this:

        “The defendant stalked the victim without making verbal contact”
        “The defendant lied about his reason for getting out of his vehicle.”
        “The defendant cornered the victim and demanded he explain what he was doing there.”
        “The defendant tried to detain the victim, which means that the defendant’s wounds were from the victim acting in self-defense or they are self-inflicted.”
        “The victim had no DNA or blood of the defendant on his hands or sleeve cuffs.”
        “The defendant shot a helpless screaming teenager which is evidenced by the 9-11 call.”
        “The defendant’s wounds were very minor and do not match the story he uses to justify such wounds.”

      • Tee says:

        Not to mention porch monkey, professor

      • jm…..Kinda glad now that I don’t have TV…grrrrr!

      • Malisha…Re: GZ asking a bystander if he had blood on him……. You know….if a person is in a fight, they usually wipe their nose if they feel something warm running from it. He would have seen blood on his hand. (And if his nose had been bleeding as badly as he stated, he probably would have had blood running down his throat too) And if he really did have blood on his lips, he would have been able to taste it, especially when he opened his mouth to, according to him, scream for help or talk to the bystander.
        If there really was any blood, I believe the blood was staged and GZ asked the the bystander if he had blood on him to make sure the “evidence” was well noticed and then documented. Just my opinion……

    • blushedbrown says:


  34. grahase says:

    Are there any statistics about how many people have been killed with bare hands. I know one person had their face just about eaten off and survived. Blunt force trauma, I guess is much different.

    • Malisha says:

      A child named Joshua DeShaney was beaten ALMOST to death by his father’s bare hands back in the 1980s. You can read about it, and the glorious United States Supreme Court’s decision in that case, here:


      Still, the child lived. I don’t think Trayvon Martin would have been able to beat Fogen to death with his bare hands, no matter how long it took Officer Timothy Smith to show up on the scene. And I think it’s pretty obvious that even if the silly story Fogen tells occurred (I place the chance of that between negligible and null), Button-Nose would have survived.

      Now will he do as well if a whole GANG of REAL THUGS one day attacks him (and hey, what are the chances of that?)? Anybody’s guess.

    • Nefertari05 says:

      Not sure how many, but there is that one recent case in TX where the dad caught a perv in the bushes with his half-naked 4 yr. old daughter and beat him to death, with bare hands. No charges, of course.

    • jm says:

      Can’t see anything on link regarding Chorge’s picture, just lots of commercials. Can you give a brief synopsis of what was said? I missed it too.

      • grahase says:

        I hope someone is able to watch and report. I live in Canada and dont get the program at all – TV or computer.

  35. grahase says:

    blushedbrown, If you are in Texas, arent you behind EST. Wouldnt 1220 be 1120 your time.

    • blushedbrown says:

      no I’m ahead its, 12:25 now, so when you annouced it was coming on it was going off for me

    • grahase, you’re right. If the segment is scheduled to begin at 12:20 EST, it actually begins here at 11:20 CST because of the one hour time zone difference. I’m in Texas too, Central Standard Time……….but no TV…can’t watch it on my dinosaur computer either…lol….so I come here to find out what’s going on………. 🙂

  36. Malisha says:

    Remember Shellie’s loving statement to Cheorge in jail: When this is all over you’re going to have a great life.

    All that has to happen is for “all this” to be over.

    But then, of course, they have to contend with this problem: Cheorge’s very scary behavior and his paranoid tendencies will probably make any Black person and any Mexican feel very frightened of Cheorge. Probably even frightened for their lilfe! And as we know, according to SYG — OY YOY!

    Well as long as Cheorge has some indoor hobbies he’ll probably have a great life, once all this is over.

    • jm says:

      Malisha: “Well as long as Cheorge has some indoor hobbies he’ll probably have a great life, once all this is over.”

      Maybe Chorge will find true love in prison.

    • Jun says:

      If Cheorge was ever killed and the killer claimed self defense, Cheorge would be screwed because just look at his character history and the fact he would be likely to attack someone and the claim would probably be legitimate and any person would have reasonable fear of him. The bloodclot guy molested and attempted to rape his own cousin!!!

    • Patricia says:

      Hahahaha indoor hobbies–post it notes– remember when they were trying to withdraw funds and change the pin codes he would say “write it down so you don’t forget the pin # he said that several times so she wouldn’t forget like she’s the one with the memory problem. Pick a pass word like potatoe chips!!! Dipshits!!!

  37. Assuming for the sake of argument, that Lonnie Starr’s theory of carefully carved wounds-to-go in GZ’s head is true, the likely carver would have been Shellie.

    If she were to plead guilty and lose her right to remain silent, the State might be more than a tad interested in that information and if they were to interview her and she denied it, they might charge her with obstruction of justice, assuming they believe they could prove she did.

    (They might be able to do this with Osterman, if they can get their hooks into him)

    Several intriguing scenarios are possible.

    • Malisha says:

      Since she owns the gun, she should be charged as accessory to murder, too. I mean Murder-Two-Too.

      • Looolooo says:

        Oooooh! I hadn’t considered that scenario. The plot thickens.

      • On that gun thing, if it is true that GZ had no license to carry, I would be sorely tempted to staple the receipt from that returned required course that was never completed to a motion to add another charge, and mail the whole mess to the judge.

    • PYorck says:

      Do you mean if she were to plead guilty to her perjury charge?

    • Malisha says:

      They could hold Shellie as a material witness anyway. They could order her to testify about something NOT covered by marital privilege and then hold her in civil contempt until she does. All sorts of things come to mind.

    • Patricia says:

      Ooooooh, professor I can see Lonnie’s theory after all it is in gz statement on audio to I believe det singletons question about the knucklehead band aids on his nose and head he stated ” my wife is a nursing student and I put her to work “. Also, she was a licensed in cosmetology ?? She can fake any senerio with make up. Plus where does her gun fit in with this case except that the state rescinded her license because she committed a felony ?
      How can she prove her case ? Scott never put any addendum on Corey –oh yea in case anyone lies on this case it’s ok. Besides it was being investigated federal and state so jurisdiction doesn’t matter because she was called on a nen line? Wow!!!!!

      • Xena says:

        Plus where does her gun fit in with this case except that the state rescinded her license because she committed a felony ?

        She is charged with a felony. However, there is no State report that GZ’s license was to be revoked, which brings more credibility to reports that his CCL was invalid. The State doesn’t have to revoke a license it never officially issued.

      • Malisha says:

        Yes, Patricia. I have long said that Cheorge was seen by Nurse Maybelline before going to the doctor’s office on 2/27/2012.

        First officer to interview Fogen at the SPD that night was Singleton. Now let’s take a look at that for a minute. Ordinarily, when there is a shooting death between apparent strangers and the cops have no real way of figuring it out (such as a shooting death with a bunch of witnesses or a shooting death in a house where one spouse is killed and the other suspected), a good GUESS is that the death is either gang related or drug related.

        So when they first took Fogen in, on 2/26/2012, they could not RULE OUT the idea that maybe there was a drug deal gone bad. Why would they allow Fogen, a suspect in a shooting death, to use the bathroom unattended. He could have flushed a pound of heroin that he might have been carrying in a little bag on or in his body; there was not even a strip search done.

        So right away, this is suspicious. In New York, the same week Trayvon Martin was killed, a young Black guy was suspected by cops of carrying drugs, so they chased him and he ran up to his apartment and ran into the bathroom and closed the door and the cops broke down the door to the bathroom and shot the guy dead. Their reason: He was about to flush the evidence.

        I’m saying: Look at this case and check off how many things are WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE. And they all seem to lead back to the corrupt Sanford Police Department lead by the Corrupt Billy Lee and protected by the Corrupt Norman Wolfinger.

        Every day I have another “Hey-wait-a-minute” experience abut this case. This is just today’s and the day is yet young.

  38. blushedbrown says:

    Sonnie is saying that the pictures don’t seem to back up injuries.

  39. grahase says:

    EST for the InSession program. Sorry about that.

  40. grahase says:

    In Session today at 12:20 will be discussing the new photo & documents released.

    • blushedbrown says:

      oh goodie let me go set dvr

    • Is that Eastern Standard Time? Can the show be viewed on the internet?

    • HLN did display both gz’s pics side by side- the one from the scene and from the station. but they didn’t say anything about the miraculous recovery an hour later??!!!

      Vinnie announced as if fact that gz’s nose *was* broken!
      And Vinnie has been obviously/publicly defensive of Trayvon and critical of gz…

      i think someones gonna look take a look at the pic soon tho!

      **** BTW, “Trayvon” is in my SPELL CHECK now!

      • Erica says:

        But wasn’t he suspended for a while? I thought at the time he was absent from tv he was suspended over the tm issues but idk

      • jm says:

        At least HLN displayed both of the pictures unlike In Session who only showed the “new evidence” picture.

        I don’t get why HLN and In Session are not questioning the authenticity of the picture as compared to the one taken 4 hours later and the next day’s video tapes of Chorge with a normal nose.

        Do they fear lawsuits or do they not want to question ethics of LE? Or maybe they are just uninformed commentators misinforming the public? I don’t get it.

          • I got a word press error with the message, “Cheating, huh” from your link.

          • jm says:

            Professor: “I got a word press error with the message, “Cheating, huh” from your link.” I got the same message. Hope it’s not some sort of a virus.

          • I’m not worried. I got my flu shot.

          • I have NO IDEA what i’m doing on this wordpress stuff!LOL when i clicked it didn’t work either!

            anyway on the Sanford Watch video posted the other day, it seemed like Vinnie P. was pumping up Trayvon’s virility (?) i got the impression from Vinnie he felt Trayvon likely kicked gz’s ass, but his point was just because Trayvon put a spankdown of GZ it doesn’t give GZ the right to use deadly force. they were all saying that gz started it and got mad because Tray was getting the best of gz and that’s why gz shot.
            I was just wondering if that was coming from a guys point of view… was vinnie sticking up for Trayvon but at the same time trying NOT to make Tray out to be so soft?
            i know many of us don’t think Tray even landed a punch. especially not in the angry black gangsta way. we base that opinion on what we think is Trayvon’s quiet, soft spoken, non confrontational disposition we get from his mannerisms we can see, and from people who knew him.
            Vinnie’s acts like a jersey/italian, macho, football lovin, manly man kinda guy. and i personally didn’t like the way he was talkin b/c i wanna see Trayvon in a certain way, plus we don’t want anything to screw up the states case. even if it doesn’t actually hurt the case. it just gives the zimmerlovers their stupid excuses to trash Tray!
            if you wanna see it agian i saved it here>>>Hope it works! LOL http://wp.me/p2PpgW-J

        • If the photograph was photoshopped by or at the request of the SPD, it would have been done to “justify” not charging the defendant and the only “reason” for not charging him, given the strength of the case against him, is racism.

          The mainstream media doesn’t want to touch that story because it’s contrary to the idea of a happy post-racial America and too damned unpleasant for them to contemplate.

  41. colin black says:

    Not an expert in American legal system,,,At first blush what I got from Shel lie..Was she gave her evidence via phone from an undisclosed address perhaps even an out of State location,,,An she was trying to have the case dropped due to the technicality that Corey may have no duristriction in the disrict she testified an lied under oath from?? Don t know I could be way off as she is definately guilty with plenty of evidence from her an gz own lips to garantee a conviction.I think she will plead guilty in installments as she sees the development of her spouses demise in legal terms,

    • Xena says:

      Ahhh. Colin, reading your comment gave me a revelation moment. The allegations in the motion by ShelLIE’s attorney conveys the possibility that ShelLIE wants GZ charged with perjury because Corey has jurisdiction to charge him, but allegedly, no charge ShelLIE.

    • Malisha says:

      If she’s saying there’s no jurisdiction because she was out of state at the time she’s treading on a snake’s tail. If that is the case she used interstate phone lines to commit a fraud on the court, a federal charge, not pretty. She ought to take what’s the known evil rather than go swimming in the waters!

    • Xena says:

      I suspect that’s a stretch.

      Maybe, but maybe not if there is some mudslinging going on and ShelLIE is no longer with GZ.

      • Tee says:

        I think she is still with him. I don’t think she cares for him all to much right now. Being a women I can see her getting really frustrated with hidding out not being able to shop get her hair and nails done and not being able to have down time away from the hubby not to mention having to suffer his stupidity everyday, and knowing that this is all his fault. yeah I would bet this women is beyond angry with him at this point and alone in her bathroom she is crying her heart out she want this to go away but she knows that it won’t. What I believe her lawyer is simply saying, is that Mrs. Corey is not authorized to bring charges in Seminole county because she is not the states prosecutor for that county she can only bring charges in the counties where she was elected to prosecute in. At least that is my take on this matter.

        • Xena says:

          What I believe her lawyer is simply saying, is that Mrs. Corey is not authorized to bring charges in Seminole county because she is not the states prosecutor for that county she can only bring charges in the counties where she was elected to prosecute in. At least that is my take on this matter.

          Oh, I agree Tee, but it was ASA Guy who under his name, said it was by special appointment on the Information charging ShelLIE.

  42. grahase says:

    From Orlando Sentinal November 29th:

    An attorney for Shellie Zimmerman today asked a judge to throw out the perjury charge against her, saying that Special Prosecutor Angela Corey, based in Jacksonville, has no jurisdiction in the case.

    In paperwork filed today in state circuit court in Sanford, Shellie Zimmerman’s attorney, Kelly B. Sims, argues that Corey’s authority does not extend to any cases in Seminole County except that of George Zimmerman.

    “Importantly, Governor Scott did not give Special Prosecutor Corey blanket authority to file additional charges against other individuals for any alleged crimes committed within the Eighteenth Judicial Circuit,” Sims wrote.

    Seminole County is part of the 18th Judicial Circuit. Corey is the elected state attorney in the Fourth Judicial Circuit – Duval, Nassau and Clay counties.

    • grahase says:

      They are claiming that Governor Scott gave the Speical Prosecutor authority to investigate all matters pertaining to the death of Trayvon Martin and this does not include the perjury charges

    • Assuming for the sake of argument that the argument is valid, the solution would be to have present State’s Attorney for Seminole County prosecute the case.

      But I seriously doubt the argument is valid because the authority to investigate and prosecute the person or persons responsible for killing Trayvon Martin would include GZ, obviously, and anyone else who assisted him. That would include Shellie’s perjury, I think, because she did it to conceal his assets from the court.

      I would have to review the governor’s order to be certain, but at this point, I think the argument is ridiculous because the State has jurisdiction to prosecute anyone who violates a state law.

      Corey is a State’s Attorney, so she should be able to prosecute the case.

    • Malisha says:

      It always amazes me when attorneys for people as obviously guilty as Shellie try everything, whereas attorneys for defendants (and civil litigants) who really ARE innocent or blameless seem to hold back, pull their punches, and say things like: “You want me to say THAT? I can’t; I’m an officer of the court.” I once had a lawyer who was facing a judge who just plain MADE STUFF UP and he (the lawyer) would tell me, “But Judge B wants this and Judge B wants that.” I said to him once, “That’s not in the law; there’s no law that says I have to do that!” He said to me, “You want me to get you off on a technicality?” [By the way, I was not a criminal defendant! I was a civil plaintiff!] I asked him if, as a lawyer for a murderer, he would have filed a challenge to the indictment if the paperwork was wrong. He said, “Yes, I would HAVE TO.” I then asked, “so you would use the technical dictates of the law to free a murderer but you hesitate to use them to defend MY RIGHTS in court?”

      Only then did he agree (but he failed to do it, nonetheless). Yet I see lawyers filing asinine crap like this motion for Shellie all the time when their clients do NOT deserve a legally-twisted case.

      What is up with that?

      • jm says:

        Malisha: “….. I see lawyers filing asinine crap like this motion for Shellie all the time when their clients do NOT deserve a legally-twisted case. What is up with that?”

        Money? I am sure ShelLIE is well-funded by Chorge’s defense contributions.

      • Looolooo says:

        Is it even permissable for SheLIE’s legal defense to be funded by Cheorge’s legal defense fund? I thought that it was SOLEY for HIS defense……and nothing else. Well……. that and his mountain of prescription drugs.

      • “What is up with that?”

        Wait until you see my ineffective assistance of council brief. It’s impossible to make this stuff up. What is really sad is that this stuff is happening in every state now. My court-appointed lawyer had to dig to get low enough to exceed the new low that he apparently set. Fred says, “egregious.” This is too kind.

        I have seen killers walk, while others rot in prison for ten years, for growing a few plants of weed. This is the truth, and it’s disgusting.

      • ijdk says:

        Im currently unemployed and I can not get an attorney on my misdemeanor case. The judge make up his own rules and does not abide by the law instea he thinks he makes the laws and enforce his laws, its sad that this is happenning but it is

    • Jun says:


      It says she has authority over all related matters

      this happened during the bond hearing for Cheorge

      I am thinking she can also press charges for Robert Jr & Sr when they perjure and obstruct at trial

  43. colin black says:

    I thought the title of this post was the suspects latest version of what Trayvon said to him as he attemptted to pound him into dieperdom…………

    • LOL, well, the title is kind of like saying, “The Fifth doesn’t work when the mouth is running, and besides, my lawyer threatened to kill me in my sleep if I spoke to the press.”

  44. grahase says:

    She is claiming that the State had no authority to press perjury charges against her and is seeking to have the charges thrown out.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      So that would take longer, hence the continuances?

      • Two sides to a story says:

        PS – Doesn’t that piss the prosecution and the judge off a little bit when defendant and their lawyer claim the State has no authority to press charges that were clearly legitimate and fully supported by evidence?

    • That argument sounds ridiculous.

      The State has jurisdiction and an ironclad case.

      She probably should plead guilty, but if she does, she will lose her 5th Amendment right to remain silent and be subject to being called as a witness against her husband and co-conspirator in her perjury to defraud the court about his financial assets.

    • jm says:

      grahase says: “She is claiming that the State had no authority to press perjury charges against her and is seeking to have the charges thrown out.”

      Is that a valid claim does anyone know? I think it will be very bad overall if the charges are thrown out. I mean how can you plot to hide money from the court and under oath pretend you (and Chorge) are indigent and have no means to pay for bond.

    • Odd, I never in a thousand years ever thought I would say these words, but, and this is just my own personal opinion here, seeing as how the state has her on more than one or two tapes and all, she might want to consider a plea. I know, I know. I hate it. I hate that the system is reduced to little more than a guilty plea brokerage operation nowadays, but I have also seen, with my eyeballs, a person sit in prison with a five-year perjury sentence. Twenty percent of five years to the parole board is significant and life-altering, and unless she has some kind of a slam dunk that I have never heard of, there is a possibility, a real one, that this woman could be convicted for this. Just my .02 FWIW.

      She loses her right to remain silent if she pleads, however, and could then be called as a witness in her husband’s case, and if she refuses to testify, she could potentially spend “dead time” in jail for contempt of court. Those days could potentially not count for anything, in other words.

      Bottom line, she has gotten herself into a hell of a jam.

      • jm says:

        Crane-Station: “Bottom line, she has gotten herself into a hell of a jam.”

        I just wonder if ShelLIE holds Chorge responsible and there is resentment of if she takes responsibility for being a greedy partner in the scheme.

        • We have talked about this very thing. I don’t know what she will do, but unfortunately, she is not much in the driver’s seat. I suppose they could attempt to force the state to prove that the voice on the phone tape was actually her, but I have no idea what they are trying to do, at this point. This situation really complicated his case.

      • Rachael says:

        I’m sure She’lLie shares GZ’s victim mentality and thinks they are both being wrongly persecuted.

        • jm says:

          Rachael: “She’lLie shares GZ’s victim mentality and thinks they are both being wrongly persecuted.”

          In that case, I hope ShelLIE ends up doing some time in prison with a felony on her record and her Chorge ends up in a serious relationship as someone’s beitch in prison where he discovers he prefers strong “well-built” men to hefty chicks with dead eyes like ShelLIE.

          They are both in denial encouraged by Zimbeciles who support them.

        • Kind of a risky mentality, when one does not have a defense.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        She’s likely to get even more penalties if she refuses to plead guilty. The state is really going to nail her unless there are some surprising developments. Perhaps the strategy is to push her hearings until AFTER GZs case is over.

        They can have fun in their respective cells thinking about one another and God’s will, I s’pose.

        • Her position is quite amazing. It will be interesting to see what her choices will be. She’s got option a, which is bad, and option b, which is equally bad.

          My question is, what favors has he done for her, exactly, to earn, well, you see what I am saying here.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Yes, sounds like either a relationship breaker or some hugely transformative experience.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Good for her and, she is getting just what she deserves for lying for old cutie. she also knows what happened on the night of Feb 26,2012 and like all of the others who know, she is keeping quiet. she hasn’t got enough common sense to know that George is not worth her going to prison for. it seems to me, that she is one of these women who think they can’t do no better so she is sticking with this “MURDERING LOOSER” I can’t stand the sight of the cold blooded murderer.

        • Xena says:

          Good for her and, she is getting just what she deserves for lying for old cutie.

          ShelLIE’s misrepresentations demonstrated that she understood why GZ instructed her on how to transfer the money into different accounts. She wasn’t quite slick enough. ShelLIE should have honestly answered for how much money was in GZ’s account, but kept her own secret — then she could have disappeared with the money in her account and left the loser behind. Let it then become a civil, marital property issue. LOL!!!

        • This is not any sort of situation I could stick with, I’d likely call my lawyer and have a talk about cutting my loses. That said, I don’t know either of them or their history, but only as an outside observer, it’s a “no” for me.

    • Xena says:

      Also keep in mind that notice to appear mailed to ShelLIE was returned unclaimed. Her attorney might have problems communicating with ShelLIE and needs continuances. Also, there might be a problem with paying her attorney. Why should ShelLIE’s attorney be paid out of the GZ’s legal defense fund, when O’Mara and West are not being paid?

  45. grahase says:

    ShelLie granted a continuance in perjury case. We wont hear again until next hearing in January.

    • jm says:

      How many continuances is she allowed?

      • There is no limit as long as the prosecution does not object and she continues to waive her right to a speedy trial.

        • jm says:

          Professor: “There is no limit as long as the prosecution does not object and she continues to waive her right to a speedy trial.”

          So is it in the prosecution’s best interest to let her continue to avoid trial? Why would they not object? It seems it would lay the groundwork to have her convicted of perjury. What is the prosecution’s motivation do you know?

      • Erica says:

        What if Shellie is convicted and goes to jail while Zimmerman is set free. I think this is going to help BDL in possibly getting a plea deal in exchange for her cooperation. Many people think she was there so these perjury charges gives the state more leverage. She can either go to jail or tell the truth about George. but what do you guys think?

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Professor, is Shellie’s attorney thinking this will blow over if they keep delaying?

    • ladystclaire says:

      She will be granted another continuance before that court date also. I just don’t understand how a defendant can be treated as if they have committed no crime at all. as far back as she LIED to the court, she should have been tried and convicted!

  46. blushedbrown says:

    Excellent post Prof, as always. Considering this was Serino’s show, I can see him getting a lawyer. Most of the witnesses have lawyers. The family of Trayvon Martin has lawyers. That’s alot of lawyers. It’s a good thing he who shall not be named, didn’t lawyer up until much later. We have all those statements that can be used against him. Not onlyhis statements but a WALK THRU to boot! A student of criminal justice of eight years without a lawyer. Tsk Tsk I know you probably would of killed him with your bare hands. 😆

  47. What is up with this? Singleton says she never read George’s statement but she was with him 4 hours before Serino returned from the crime scene. Why did they ask her that question and what was in that statement she did not want to acknowledge she knew?

    • grahase says:

      Where is this statement. I couldn’t find it in the documents. Source please and thanks.Maybe, had she read that statement, her questions may have been different. Why wouldn’t she read it. Odd. One would think that she would go over it with him to ensure it was complete and accurate (by Tugboats statndards).

    • PYorck says:

      As I understand it, that was about GZ’s ‘guiding’ remark. Singleton was the only narcotics officer involved and because of that they wanted to see if she had any hand in GZ’s account beyond the recorded interviews.

    • groans says:

      The report says that Singleton interviewed him first (and apparently with two police officers present, including Smith), and he wrote his statement AFTER the interview.

      That makes no sense to me, at all! It seems logical, to me, that you would FIRST have the killer write his statement, so he’s committed to an explanation of the events in his own words. Then you’d read the statement. After that you’d interview him, and you’d have it in front of you during the interview, which would help to flesh out more detail, clarify any ambiguity, and challenge parts that sounded odd or weak.

      If you interview first, and then have the killer write his statement, it seems like he would be able to pick up on what sort of “facts” and areas of concern he should address. In other words, you could very well taint “his” statement before it’s made.

      I wish someone with experience in law enforcement matters, procedures, and protocol would weigh in on whether the SPD’s interview first / statement later method is appropriate. I certainly never would have imagined that his written statement was not his first explanation of the events!

      • Xena says:

        I wish someone with experience in law enforcement matters, procedures, and protocol would weigh in on whether the SPD’s interview first / statement later method is appropriate.

        Yes, that is the appropriate procedure — first question, then have the person provide a written statement. Suspects can change their minds during questioning and decide to remain quiet and not provide a written statement. They can ask to have an attorney present. What investigators have is the recording so that the suspect cannot later allege that they provided the written statement without knowing their rights. They have to know why they are being questioned.

        It was all good because the SPD then decided that they needed a video re-enactment. It was then during the second interview that Singleton was ready to call GZ to explain every inconsistent statement but Serino continued to interrupt.

      • Malisha says:

        They always talk first and write their statement after. Most of the time, that leads to some form of confession, OR, if not, it makes the suspect confirm what he has told the police. In other words, if Cheorge had been interviewed (and tested and had his blood collected off his hands and clothes etc. etc.) and then told them that Taaffe or Osterman did it, at the conclusion of the interview, they’d make him write down who did it and what he saw so they would have it on paper.

      • groans says:

        Great explanations! Now it makes perfect sense to me. Thank you very much, Xena and Malisha!

      • Malisha says:

        If you were to let a suspect write his statement FIRST and then be interviewed, his entire interview would be worthless because all he would ever do was make sure he “kept to his story.” The use of the interview is to get to the REAL story so if you have a guy pre-destine the “real story” you have no real flexibility with him.

        For the cops to say “write that down and sign it” comes at the end when the cops are satisfied that they have gotten either (a) the truth or (b) all they’re ever GONNA get out of the suspect.

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