Zimmerman: Selection of Experts to Disprove Zimmerman’s Claim of Self-Defense

Lonnie Starr wrote:

Once the person on the ground tightens their neck muscles, your only way to lift their head is to lift their entire upper body. Obviously that’s going to be too hard to do, if you’re sitting on their upper body.

If you can’t pick the head up, you can’t slam it back down. Try it with someone, you’ll come away with the impression that it’s just not possible. If you are equal or lighter than the person you are straddling, the mount position is easily defeated if you aren’t trained to maintain it.

GZ has coupled an impossible attack with an unstable perch and tried to make a life threatening event of it. In fact he goes so far as to say that this absurdity actually succeeded many times, taking him to the edge of mortality.

Comparatively it’s as if GZ was saying that TM was standing ten feet away, swinging his fist so fast and hard, that the wind was tearing his head off his shoulders. It only sounds possible in the eye of the imagination. In practice it’s so unworkable it’s silly!

This is one of several comments that we exchanged last night relative to his idea to reenact in the courtroom Martin’s alleged effort to kill Zimmerman by gripping the sides of Zimmerman’s head and repeatedly slamming it into the concrete sidewalk.

I like the idea, but a reenactment is not possible because, as I explained,

Reenactments have to be agreed to by both parties and the judge. They also have to accurately reproduce what happened and here there is no agreement to what that was and the risk of the unpredictable is too high and the stakes are too high for it to happen.

Since a courtroom reenactment is out, how would a prosecutor disprove this part of Zimmerman’s story?

Behold! A teaching moment has appeared.

This was my answer earlier this morning.

The applicable evidentiary rule is Rule 702, which addresses the use of experts.

First, this is a matter where expert testimony would assist the jury to determine a fact in issue.

Second, you need one or or more experts qualified by education, training or experience to testify.

If I were BDLR, I would begin the search for an expert by contacting an expert in kinesiology, I also would check with a sports medicine specialist, someone who designs football and motorcycle helmets and a physical therapist.

Last, but not least, I would contact the reigning MMA World Champion.

This is how lawyers think creatively.

I have previously discussed Rule 702 in, Zimmerman: How Will the Defense Deal with the Terrified Scream?

Rule 702 provides:

If scientific, technical or other specialized knowledge will assist the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue, a witness qualified as an expert by knowledge skill, experience, training, or education, may testify thereto in the form of an opinion or otherwise, if

(1) the testimony is based on sufficient facts or data,

(2) the testimony is the product of reliable principles and methods, and

(3) the witness has applied the principles and methods reliably to the facts of the case.

As I said in my comment, I don’t believe there is any question that expert testimony “will assist the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue.

The disputed fact, of course, is whether Martin slammed Zimmerman’s head into the concrete as Zimmerman claimed.

The answer, which we believe to be “No,” will help determine if the incident Zimmerman claimed to have happened did, in fact, happen. The answer is important to the outcome of the case because Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense depends on it.

We have been focusing on Zimmerman’s minor injuries and the absence of Zimmerman’s DNA on the cuffs and sleeves of Martin’s sweatshirts and his fingernail clippings. The absence of Zimmerman’s DNA is inconsistent with his claim that Martin punched him repeatedly in the face bloodying his eyes and face.

I am relatively certain the State will present evidence from at least one medical expert, probably a trauma surgeon, who will testify that the injuries to his nose and the back of his head are not consistent with Zimmerman’s statement to a reasonable medical certainty.

I also am expecting the State will call the laboratory analyst who performed the DNA analysis and the analyst who examined the two sweatshirts and reported on the bullet holes that align with each other, but not the wound.

I do not know when enough is enough, but the State has the burden of disproving self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. In the spirit of it’s better to be safe than sorry, the State should at least explore the possibility of presenting expert testimony to drive the final nail into the coffin and bury Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense forever.

I’m referring, of course, to Lonnie Starr’s stiff-neck hypothesis.

Wikipedia explains kinesiology:

Kinesiology, also known as human kinetics, is the scientific study of human movement. Kinesiology addresses physiological, mechanical, and psychological mechanisms. Applications of kinesiology to human health include: biomechanics and orthopedics, strength & conditioning, sport psychology, rehabilitation, such as physical and occupational therapy, as well as sport and exercise. Individuals who have earned degrees in kinesiology can work in research, the fitness industry, clinical settings, and in industrial environments. Studies of human and animal motion include measures from motion tracking systems, electrophysiology of muscle and brain activity, various methods for monitoring physiological function, and other behavioral and cognitive research techniques.

If I were prosecuting this case, I would begin my search for an expert to evaluate the stiff-neck hypothesis by contacting professors who teach kinesiology in nearby universities. If the theory proves to be promising, I would locate the most respected authority in the country on the subject and see what he or she thinks about it.

I also would contact sports medicine specialists, physical therapists and companies that design and manufacture helmets for use by athletes and motorcycle riders.

For dramatic effect, because juries like a good show with an occasional star, I would contact the reigning MMA world champion and see if I could fit him in as a witness regarding the fighting style, straddling, and strategy. I think he would laugh at the absurdity of Zimmerman’s description of what happened.

If I could get the jury to laugh at Zimmerman’s story, I would know that I had won the case and what better way to accomplish that than by using the world champion to do it.

Out of that mix of experts, I should be able to determine if the theory has any validity and if so, I would select 1-3 experts and endorse them as witnesses for the state.

I would work with them to come up with some demonstrative exhibits to use in court to illustrate their testimony.

Lawyers typically rely on their paralegals to work with the experts in developing those exhibits and arranging for payment, travel and hotel accommodations.

Frankly, it is not possible to overestimate the importance and value of a knowledgeable and experienced paralegal to a litigation team.

I hope this article provides a better understanding of the process of Rule 702 as well as the selection and use of experts at trial.

328 Responses to Zimmerman: Selection of Experts to Disprove Zimmerman’s Claim of Self-Defense

  1. Lonnie Starr says:

    Just checked they’re up to 68.

  2. Lonnie Starr says:

    Some one please, put up a petition to have GZ sent to Gitmo as an enemy combatant, so we can compare how the two work out.

    • ed nelson says:

      Well you like the idea of puttin’ folks away down there off shore, in a place like that? No sorry, I would go with the old ways.

      How would you like to be put away in a dungeon/concentration camp, vs. get your pill, or get your just rewards, and done!?

      Gitmo? you for real? Lonnie?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Com’on it would be just an equal and opposite petition with no chance! Nor do I subscribe to indefinite detentions, suspension of Habeas corpus, believe me, no one spent more time than me, railing against that abominable corruption of law. Because, in reality, as long as it exists, we have no real rule of law at all.

        We can tell ourselves all kinds of things about the rule of law, but if our chief executive has extra legal powers over each and every citizen, without recourse, it really isn’t a rule of law we’re living under, it simply a propaganda created illusion. Nor does it matter how sparingly such illegal powers are used, because that would be like saying “partially pregnant”. But hey, don’t get me started, I can easily write a quarter million word essay on the subject and that would be just to be brief.

  3. Lonnie Starr says:

    58 at 3:24 pm 11/20, at 5:50 pm the total is (drum roll please)……………………59 TA DA!!!

  4. Lonnie Starr says:

    They’re up to 58 today, not even one per hour. At less than 24 signatures per day they haven’t a chance, at the rate they’re going they’ll have a hard time making 1,000 by June. LOL

  5. Malisha says:

    The whole idea of Cheorge being as wacko-out-of-his-mind about crime in the neighborhood, thus giving him all that adrenalin when he saw a “fucking punk” skipping around so that he had to call the police and report that the kid was “up to no good” was an idea based on an incorrect premise. It turns out that there was NO CAUSE for this alarm about crime in the neighborhood. There were not “eight burglaries, nine thefts and one other shooting” in that neighborhood in the year before Cheorge killed Trayvon Martin. There were in fact “eight burglaries, FIVE (5) thefts and ZERO (0) shootings” in that neighborhood. Those statistics move the neighborhood from “slightly more crime than the average for a neighborhood its size” to “slightly less crime than the average for a neighborhood its size.”

    He, Cheorge, you didn’t have to save anybody after all. Feeling foolish yet?

    • Jun says:

      I believe the state will be using that info to show that George is repeatedly unreasonable in his beliefs

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Anyone else here realize, that although GZ claims a poor memory, when asked about the cctv’s, he knows that the front gate ones aren’t working, he knows who is responsible for them, and he can recite that persons name, address, company and title, and that he has that persons number stored on his cell phone. eH? George pays more attention to the cctv’s in the neighborhood than he does of the streets he’s patrolling? That’s going to be a very big selling point for the jurors, this will be the nth time that they shake their heads and look at each other wide eyed and strangely.

        Maybe that’s GZ’s out? He hopes to enrage the jury to the point where they lunge from the box and attempt to murder him themselves! A mistrial for sure, if the judge doesn’t beat them to it.

        • @Lonnie:
          Actually, I am looking for GZ to jump out of his chair and attempt to strangle the prosecutor and the judge!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Actually, I am looking for GZ to jump out of his chair and attempt to strangle the prosecutor and the judge!”

            Lol, should he become violent we’ve seen where that leads, he’d be brought into court wearing shackles and chains. If you think he doesn’t like the place he’s in now, he’d like that a whole lot less.

          • jm says:

            @Lonnie: “Actually, I am looking for GZ to jump out of his chair and attempt to strangle the prosecutor and the judge!”

            Actually in the current state of medicated mind and the condition of his overweight body, GZ doesn’t look like he could jump out of his chair or attempt to strangle the prosecutor or judge. He can barely fold a piece of paper.

            I don’t know why, but I suspect MOM has advised that GZ be medicated and ships him lots of fattening junk food for MOM and West’s personal safety and to get GZ to STFU. 🙂

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Sounds about right, Goo Fried Chicken and Burger Thing, Twinkies of course, several people have already commented on the new folds he’s holding. His “love handles” have turned into Guard Rails. Oh well.

            No more lime light and I do believe he’s beginning to realize things are getting really serious. Even his supporters appear to be losing steam. Meanwhile the work goes on to indelibly establish the guilt we’ve already proven beyond any shadow of doubt. All we’re doing now is looking for that one piece that says it all in a nutshell.

          • @Lonnie:
            I was being facetious of course. GZ will be medicated, and he will not be able to explode in the courtroom. I watch to many old movies! LOL! Plus, GZ would have to waddle over and he is unable to do so. He is totally unrecognizable these days. SMH.

          • jm says:

            DGM says: “GZ would have to waddle over and he is unable to do so. He is totally unrecognizable these days.”

            I love the new mentally unstable, blinking dead eyes and unhealthy obese look GZ is sporting these days.

            At least I don’t feel like smacking the smirk off his face now. If GZ manages to get out of this mess without going to prison, I see serious mental and physical health problems in the future, not to mention spending the rest of his life hiding from armed people like him who think GZ himself is suspicious.

          • @jm:
            GZ will not be found,” Not Guilty.” He will have a lot of problems no matter what transpires. His life will be one of pure hell. However, GZ’s problems started many years ago and I blame his parents for not getting him the help he truly needed. Mark Osterman stated in his book, that the Mom used to hit the kids all of the time. In other words she was abusive and the dad did nothing to protect his children.

            I listen to GZ speak, and is it me, but does anyone notice his speech patterns? GZ also had very poor college grades, he spent 6 years in college and was on was on Academic Probation, I mean who spends 6 years in Community College……..I think their may be some kind of cognitive damage in his brain. I discussed him at length with a Psychiatrist that I work with and she said that judging from what she has read, and observed, she would have to know more about his early years in school to truly make any kind of diagnosis about him, not to mention, speaking to him about his early years. What were his grades, etc,. Why was he given a license to possess a gun with his mental instability?

          • jm says:

            DGM says: “However, GZ’s problems started many years ago and I blame his parents for not getting him the help he truly needed.”

            There is no doubt GZ had problems all his life (as evident with his molesting his cousin at the age of 8), but because his parents (and family) fail to recognize anything is wrong with GZ now, I think it would be difficult for anyone in the family to take responsibility for the horrible person GZ has turned out to be. From what I can see the whole family has enabled GZ judging by how they are handling the killing of Trayvon Martin. The killing has become a money-making enterprise for them and an audition/publicity tour for RZ, Jr.

            I am nowhere near a professional in analyzing a person and what makes them do what they do but it seems to me GZ probably got away with a lot when he was younger because of family pride and the parents refusal to do anything about it, except the mother, who may have thought the cure for GZ’s lies/sneakiness/underhanded behavior may have been to beat him and the father hoped the beatings would be effective. I think family pride has a lot to do with why GZ was never given the mental help he needed. Then again, can lying sociopaths like GZ be helped? Maybe the only help GZ could get is the over-medicated state he is in now.

          • @jm:
            The fact that the family see’s a young mans death as a “money making event” is sick but be careful what you wish for. They are doomed to suffer for the heartache and pain that their son inflicted upon another human being. There is no way that GZ did not show signs of a mental illness at a young age. The fact that he knew how to molest a young girl, tells me that he was molested as well. By who, I don’t know. Most young children at that age no nothing about any kind of sex. It is obvious that he is a very troubled man and was a troubled young boy. His parents did not want to see that their son had a very serious problem.

            The fact that he could not cut it academically in college, his parents paying his rent, his being in College for the last 6 years, his anger problems, not accomplishing anything in his life…………yes, his parents were ashamed and embarressed by their son. They probably feel that having a mental disorder is shameful, and they ignored it. Sad, because another young man had to lose his life, because they chose to ignore the fact that their son was a very sick young kid and young man.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            That would be a hoot, to see women sweeping their children off the streets as he comes by. “Good Lord clear the streets it Zimmerman coming!” Doors getting locked and shades drawn down. As if it was high noon in Dodge City.

          • jm says:

            Lonnie says: “That would be a hoot, to see women sweeping their children off the streets as he comes by. “Good Lord clear the streets it Zimmerman coming!” Doors getting locked and shades drawn down. As if it was high noon in Dodge City.”

            Of course Zimmerman’s speed will be restricted by his massive weight gain, his XXX large bulletproof vest and extreme waddle so there will be plenty of time for safety preparations to be made for the arrival of GZ.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            When will we see him again? I guess Shelly’s Playboy spread fell through?

          • jm says:

            Lonnie says: When will we see him again? I guess Shelly’s Playboy spread fell through?

            I personally can’t wait to see GZ’s next appearance as well as ShelLIE. She was pretty hefty and already had dead/cold/drugged eyes in her mug shot so if she is gaining weight along GZ lines, she will be a sight to see. Playboy? She would probably be more suitable for fat chicks gone wild.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Oh come now, she’s perfectly suitable fare for any skin mag that needs a tax write off.

      • Jun says:


        I also noticed George will claim ADHD and bad memory but then in the NEN phone call he gives very descriptive directions to his car’s location, yes and the CCTV info, etc.

        Its called selective ADHD

        even then its bad because he cant even remember the lies he is trying to sell the public LMAO

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The thing that is emerging is that he can’t remember things that are either fake or falsified. He has very good retention for things that are real and/or that have actually happened. Obviously he knows what he should forget from what he should remember. LOL!

  6. whonoze says:

    In reference to Lonnie’s original question about experts to rebut GZ’s head-smashed assertion (in addition to the excellent suggestions for a kinesiologist and an MMA fighter):
    The street-fight expert quoted above said. “One does not fight and scream for help simultaneously.” More importantly, it is physically impossible to get one head’s smashed, with a broken nose, and a hand over one’s mouth, and scream clearly at the same time. An expert in theatrical voice production, and/or a speech pathologist would be able to testify to how any of these events happening to the head would necessarily affect vocal sounds coming from the head, none of which effects are in evidence in the 911 call.

    • Dennis says:

      The tapes of Martin screaming for his life before Zimmerman fatally shot him is all the jury needs to convict him. I’m almost convinced that Zimmerman had the gun on Martin and Martin was basically pleading for his life. I doubt Zimmerman would try to apprehend a dangerous burglar that might possibly be a gang member, unless he had a gun to make sure the person cooperates. Nobody in their right mind, criminal or not, would let a creepy person chase them down and try to detain/assault them without putting up a fight. That is why I believe Zimmerman most likely already had his gun out or pulled it out just after the physical altercation started.

      Some people are saying Martin yelled “Mama” right before the shot. With as good as technology is now, I feel pretty confident that audio experts will eventually be able to identify who was screaming before that final shot.

    • Dennis says:

      The MMA fighter would be a good expert. They should get Anderson Silva to testify for the prosecution. Ju Jitsu fighters know a lot about submissions which is the type of person you would want to challenge the claims of Zimmerman’s head bashing ceremony. For someone that never had his head bashed into the concrete, Zimmerman surely can’t keep his story straight or even convince us that he has a brain & a conscience.

  7. franny says:


    • Franny,

      Welcome to the blog, but please do not use ALL CAPS. You don’t need to shout and it’s unpleasant to look at.

    • @Franny:
      Excellent post! I feel your pain girl! When this case first dropped and I found out that this POS shot an unarmed kid, and yet, was not arrested for 44 days? I couldn’t believe it. They didn’t have enough evidence or probable cause! They had a dead body! That is enough! Since that time, I feel so much pain and sorrow for Sybrina and Tracy. They have had to share their grief and pain with the world, and not only that, but endure the nasty racist rhetoric from Zimmerman, his family and his racist “supporters.” I know they are strong, just like so many other families who have come before them who have had to endure a loved one being murdered due to ignorance and hatred.

      Ms. Fulton and Mr. Martin have had to listen to this lying POS smear, and defame the character of their son. A son they know did not touch this man for any reason other than to get away from this strange man. A man who had the audacity not to even identify himself. Why didn’t GZ identify himself? Why did he shoot this kid despite this kid begging for mercy? You know why? Because he is an evil POS who thinks this is funny. He is over on HP posting under disguise when myself and others know full well it is HIM! He is a mental case and the sooner they imprison this dangerous man, the better for all of us. This man has been a loser since birth, and his parents tried to hide the things he did. NO MORE! He will pay for this one!

  8. rayvenwolf says:

    Oh and for anyone who doesn’t know what a ground and pound looks like(What WJohn alluded to and what just about all of the Zidiot nation believes happened) here’s a good example: Warning this does get bloody quickly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LKADggv018

    And we all remember what George’s face looked like the night of and the day after. Oh yeah he really got pounded on….NOT.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      One thing you’ll notice about these professionals use of ground and pound, they keep their bodies between the legs of the opponent and don’t sit on top of their torso. As was explain by the Martial Artists I posted, [http://tinyurl.com/apo5oc9] the position is hard for an untrained person to maintain. Obviously it’s so unstable that pros don’t bother to use it, they prefer to stay between the leg of their adversary to keep them from escaping by simply turning their bodies or simply using their arms to push the mounter off.

      Trayvon, being not only lighter but untrained, would have been so easily dislodged by just about any movement GZ made, he have needed GZ full cooperation to accomplish the attack that way.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        Exactly. GZ would have had to lay there and take it and NO ONE does that. I always found it odd that he never once said he threw a punch while Trayvon was on top. Not a single body blow or hell fought dirty and hit him in the balls. The same went for Trayvon suddenly just letting GZ shoot him with no resistance at all.

        And even untrained, had Trayvon been raining blows down on GZ’s head or dribbled his fat head, it would have been obvious in the photos and video.

        Being showing just how many ignorant bigots are out there, this case has shown how many of his supporters don’t know the first thing about a fight. Which is kinda sad when a 110lb(soaking wet) 5’4 28 year old woman knows more.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yep, the simple part is, GZ is shorter than TM, but weighs about 50 lbs more. That difference is mostly muscle mass. The extra weight that fat adds, only makes the muscles stronger to handle the added weight. While the difference in age means that GZ has much better coordination.

          TM’s lack of muscle mass means that he’s not going to be able to lift much weight or otherwise apply much force. He doesn’t have much of a grip, so GZ could very easily take anything from TM’s hands or pull his hands off anything and easily push them and his body away.

          To TM, GZ would be like a block of granite. To GZ, TM would be like a cream puff. Unarmed, TM’s ability to pose a threat to GZ would be laughable! While the threat an unarmed GZ posed to TM would be truly frightening indeed. Then we add in GZ’s second sex organ, his gun, which he carries everywhere, just as if it is one of his organs. Can he ever forget that he has it? It’d be easier for him to leave home without one of his lungs! He doesn’t feel dressed without it.

          This is the info the Zbots fear! They don’t want to talk about GZ’s sexual affection for his gun! They would have to face the fact that they too are weird if people come to understand that they have voids in their pants, so to speak, that they need a gun to replace.

          • jm says:

            “They don’t want to talk about GZ’s sexual affection for his gun! They would have to face the fact that they too are weird if people come to understand that they have voids in their pants, so to speak, that they need a gun to replace.”

            You think that was GZ’s problem? For a guy like GZ who appeared so cocky, you would think he had no issues.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            You mean tissues don’t you? I mean he’s so full of it he needs plenty of Charmin and Scott.

  9. rayvenwolf says:

    Prof. your mention of MMA made me immediately think of the post fight pics of the GSP vs Condit fight the other night of GSP.

    Both articles are linked mostly for the pics of GSP post fight
    http://www.mmafighting.com/ufc/2012/11/18/3662646/ufc-154-aftermath-so-much-for-boring-gsp & http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/11/18/3660640/ufc-154-gsp-vs-condit-analysis-why-georges-st-pierre-hasnt-cleaned-out-welterweight

    GSP is the current welterweight champion of UFC. This is after a five round fight with Condit.

    GSP focuses on Kyokushin kaikan, Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighting styles.

    His face is now going to be my response anytime a Zidiot brings up MMA and the beating Trayvon supposedly put down on GZ.

  10. manberk says:

    Couple questions Professor:

    Can the professionals asked to testify on behalf of the state do their own reenactment and reference it it during testimony? Assuming GZ testifies I would imagine through asking the right questions they can show that his story is unbelievable without necessarily needing an actual reenactment.

    The head wounds seem high and off center from where you would think a round object would meet a flat surface while pinned on ones back as described. Can that be proven and would it be admissible?

  11. Malisha says:

    Smith has a lot of explaining to do, in my opinion. He may have been an integral part of the Zimmerman/Osterman superhero plan.

  12. grahase says:

    Both GZ and Smith claim Trayvon was wearing jeans or sweat pants. Apparently untrue as per 7-11 video. There is even a description of Trayvon wearing shorts. GZs pants described as blue jeans and Trayvons described as pants – no colour indicated. I have always wondered about that – too many discrepancies.

    • Jun says:

      Smith wrote “appeared to be” which means what it appeared to be, not what it is, at the time. Smith should explain why he wrote alot of inconsistencies

  13. grahase says:

    How come we have had no evidence about Trayvons pants. If he were straddling Zimmerman and the two were struggling, Trayvons light-coloured pants would have grass and mud stains without a doubt. Yet, pant analysis has not been provided. Even our friend George. He should have the same type of stains after the shimmy. Nothing yet.

    • Xena says:

      The lab has not released any report on testing the pants of either party for debris. That could be due to the fact that GZ claimed he was “pinned down” and could not get away. He said that Trayvon sat on his stomach and chest. Such a pinning applies to the upper body — waist up.

      • Jun says:

        they usually dont test it if there is nothing there. Pants easily get grass and mud stains coated into the fabric. There was likely nothing there.

      • grahase says:

        What! The pants may indicate who was on top and who was not. There were items of clothing tested that showed no evidence either. There should be a report that indicates no evidence discovered. They were bloody well rolling on the ground. Trayvons clothing was received in a damp condition. GZ still had his pants on when taken to the police station. The items of clothing were important, IMO, if GZ claims to have been straddled by Trayvon. How about GZs blood in Trayvons crotch.

        • Xena says:

          What! The pants may indicate who was on top and who was not.

          In this matter, debris indicates who was pinned. Debris was found on Trayvon’s sweatshirt, hoodie, socks and shoes. Debris was only found on GZ’s left boot. I would think that indicates that Trayvon was pinned and that GZ was doing the pinning using his left foot for leverage.

      • Jun says:

        They dont test areas that have nothing nor do they note it usually. It is obvious that there was no bullethole in Trayvon’s pants, for example, so why would they test that area for GS Range? You feel me? If there is nothing there, they dont test it. I havent personally seen George’s pants in person but I dont see any mud or grass stains at all on his bottoms or other areas so I am guessing its just to glaringly obvious to test.

  14. grahase says:

    It doesnt matter what the experts say about GZs injuries. It doesnt matter if they were serious or not. According to Robert Jr., he only has to prove he feared for his life. GZ is not an injury expert. Maybe all that blood on 45% of his face and in his eyes scared him so much that he feared he had run out of time. Oh yeah, Robert also claims Georgie was bleeding from his ears. Good one. It gets better and better. He cried out for help — and — no one came to help him.

    • gblock says:

      Was Junior really a lawyer? As someone explained above, that’s not what the law says.

    • Jun says:

      The fear has to be reasonable. There was no reasonable fear. Besides, George initiated and instigated the whole altercation and murder, therefore, he has no self defense on that alone. SYG is not just saying you are scared. If that was true, everyone in Florida that murders someone would say that and we would have tons of crazies roaming around Florida killing and just saying they are scared and it would be pandora’s box.

      • Rachael says:

        Well Jun, apparently in Florida you CAN shoot someone dead and say you were reasonably in fear of your life and if there are no witnesses, you can walk. That is the whole problem with the law. That Pandora’s box has been opened and they don’t want to close it. But no, there was no reasonable fear, because GZ brought a gun to a fistfight so he had NO fear, reasonable or otherwise.

      • Rachael says:

        @Jun – “If that was true, everyone in Florida that murders someone would say that and we would have tons of crazies roaming around Florida killing and just saying they are scared.”

        There ARE tons of crazies roaming around Florida killing and just saying they were scared. Since that law went into effect, self-defense claims have tripled in Florida.

        “Stand-your-ground laws are frequently criticized and called “shoot first” laws by critics, including the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.[23] In Florida, the law has resulted in self-defense claims tripling.[23][24] The law’s critics argue that Florida’s law makes it very difficult to prosecute cases against people who shoot others and then claim self-defense. The shooter can argue they felt threatened, and in most cases, the only witness who could have argued otherwise is the victim who was shot and killed.”


      • Jun says:

        It is written in the SYG law that the police can continue investigating. I forgot the physics term but every action has a reaction, therefore, trace is left behind. Even with no one around, murder can be proven with trace evidence and forensics. George is not the first nor will be the last person to stage a murder.

      • Rachael says:

        @Jun – ” George is not the first nor will be the last person to stage a murder.”

        True, but had they leg George walk that night, he would not have been the first nor would he be the last to murder someone and be let go saying it was self-defense. That is why IMO that is such an effed up law. That is why Trayvon’s parents, you, me, and all who spoke up demanded an investigation.

      • Malisha says:

        Of course, if you’re worried that we would have “tons of crazies roaming around Florida killing and just saying they are scared…” we might actually already have that. It just might be that this case brought it to our attention. Certainly the police got pretty surprised when Sharpton geared up and aimed a buffalo gun at them; who knows how many times this charade had already played out without repercussions.

    • manberk says:

      If you listen to the EMTs testimony when asked if GZ complained of serious injury, they all said no. That was his chance, but he barely said anything according to the interviews. Of course all the witnesses have him up and about, acting oddly, pacing, rolling his eyes, on the phone, talking about the caliber of the bullet etc.etc. Seemed more preoccupied than injured.

      The obvious truth is he lied about the extent of his injuries. We have the evidence via his lack of bruising in the photos and video for the 2 days after. And his efforts to exaggerate them using giant butterfly bandages his wife put on AFTER he checked out OK and before being filmed is quite suspect.

      • @manberk:

        ““Medical report; Altamonte Family Practice,; Zimmerman, George Mon 02/27/2012
        one superficial scalp wound 10.5cm (3/16″)_____
        one superficial scalp wound 12.0cm (3/4”)__________
        neither required sutures or covering
        “likely” broken nose, based on observation. No xrays
        Suffers from IBS, a chronic condition
        suffers from “sacaroillitis” (inflamation of jpoints in lower spine) a chronic condition
        5′ 71/2″ 204 lbs (obese)
        NO HEAD TRAUMA….

        Another poster sent me this. This from GZ’s family Practice. GZ was afraid to go to the hospital and not because he couldn’t pay the hospital bill. I would have ordered many tests if I was on duty working alongside the E.R. Doctor. GZ also knew that his blood and urine would have been taken, and tested for any substances such as drugs and alcohol. He would have been given an MRI/Ct. Scan, and X-rays. GZ, would have been checked throughly from head to toe, with photos being taken of his alledged injuries and many notes would have been written by the Doctors and the Nurses who were on his case. He knew that the description of what he claims TM did, does not match up to what his injuries were and that is why he would not go to the hospital.

        I was watching TruTV-Court in Session this week while on vacation, and their is a case involving a couple from W. Virginia. The woman had an 11 year old son, who jumped out of her car on the freeway, because his father started beating his mom while she was driving. To make a long story short, the boy was hit by another car, killed and the woman was stating in her testimony against the boys father who is on trial for child neglect, and other charges, that this man beat her head and stomped on her head. When they displayed the photos from the hospital, I could not see any evidence of this head bashing or stomping judging by the pictures. there was no blood, no abrasions, lacerations and her tests came back negative for any hematomas, or a concussion. What was sad was the loss of this child trying to flag down help for his mom, and dying.

        • Xena says:

          What was sad was the loss of this child trying to flag down help for his mom, and dying.

          I’ve been watching that too. Yesterday, they showed the hearing where the defense moved to dismiss the kidnapping charge in which the murder charge was based. The judge agreed and dismissed the kidnapping charge. They were going to proceed on the child neglect and the defense’s position is that the defendant did not have custody. This is a very interesting case. I think I’ll jump ahead and see if I can find how it was decided.

    • jm says:

      At what point in this “altercation” could Zimmerman reasonably not have feared for his life? Say initially maybe the jury will buy GZ’s story about being punched and then his head slammed into concrete.

      Once GZ had the gun in his hand and control where he was able to speak to a witness, obviously not being smothered or beaten, does the reasonable fear for his life end?

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        No, as he states his fear for his life doesn’t end there, it only changes to the police. He doesn’t fear TM in those final minutes, but shoots him as a way to keep the police from shooting himself.
        I guess that’s what he thinks is self defense, but I don’t think it will fly.

      • Rachael says:

        Yep. That’s it Lonnie.

    • They keep conveniently forgetting the word “reasonable.”

  15. grahase says:

    Zimmerman claims to have shimmied. If Trayvon was (as GZ says) mounted on GZ, he would have had to use his legs to shimmy. Perhaps he dug his heels in to push himself up. No… wait…it was raining and the ground was really wet and mushy. Digging his heels in would have left grass and mud debris on the heels of his boots. Nope. None. I would like to see that shimmy demo.

  16. Jun says:

    George wont get self defense because everything done has to be reasonable and nothing he did that night was reasonable

    His perception of Trayvon was unreasonable

    His idea to stalk and harass and chase and pursue this kid, confront him, terrorize him with a gun is not reasonable

    Any fear of imminent danger of death or great bodily harm was unreasonable coming from Zimmerman since he instigated it hence he was obviously not afraid of the kid to pursue and instigate a confrontation and murder

    The force George used was unreasonable… there is no proof of any attack from Trayvon and for a simple empty handed confrontation that George instigated, he was using unreasonable force to counter act any force

    Finally, Trayvon was the one being harassed and attacked to be put inside a fearful situation and he would be justified to try to get away from the creepy weirdo and use reasonable force to defend himself so any force used would be “lawful” force, therefore, George cant claim the force used on him was reasons to shoot a kid

    Trayvon is also a nerdy bookworm who is scrawny and an underdeveloped kid who had no weapons or fighting ability and knowledge for any reasonable person to be fearful of, especially since the kid was running away from the problem and screaming for help, while helpless

    George has no other way to prove any reasonable danger of imminent death or great bodily hence him concocting that idiotic “black dynamite death beating” story

    Finally, George has absolutely no credibility whatsoever so it is not likely they will believe a guy with a history and habit of instigating and initiating violence and harassment and manipulation did not instigate the murder when there is evidence from his police phone call of motive and opportunity

    and that is a reasonable break down of why George was unreasonable

    • Rachael says:

      Jun, the only thing he seemed to be afraid of that night was receiving medical care for his “injuries,” and that too was not reasonable.

      • Jun says:

        Yea for sure. Any normal person’s last thought is the bill of sale concerning one’s health for non serious injuries and rather have the wife put pointless and ridiculous bandaids who is also charged with perjury

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Maybe he thought he was being stoic as well as thrifty, especially since he wasn’t badly hurt . . .

      • Rachael says:

        TSTAS – I don’t doubt any of that – but was it reasonable? Not in my opinion.

      • Rachael says:

        But then, maybe that’s just me. Maybe I’m the one not being reasonable. I just think that if I was in a fight that was bad enough to where I HAD TO TAKE THE LIFE OF ANOTHER PERSON or I’d be dead, yeah, I’d go and get myself checked out.

      • Rachael says:

        Oops ^ was @ jun

      • ladystclaire says:

        @jun, ShelLie got exactly what she asked for and is deserving of it as well.

    • Rachael says:

      However, I don’t get the impression Trayvon was a nerdy bookworm or scrawny and under develooped!! He seems, from the pictures I’ve seen, to have been a well-nourished, well-developed, tall, slim male, and a typical teen with a variety of intersts.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      …And… A significant point that we keep missing is, the confrontation did not start behind the houses! It started the moment TM detected that he was being followed!

      GZ knew that TM had detected that he was being followed. Because GZ was either careless about concealing the fact, or because he openly displayed his intention to observe Trayvon.

      A confrontation is making oneself known to another person by some design or effect! So that happened while TM was at the mailboxes and GZ should have dealt with it when TM came towards him, by stating his purpose and making it clear that he meant TM no harm. To do anything else is both sinister and hostile!

      Hardly a wonder that TM would run away, because a sinister and hostile person, obviously means to harm!

      • Jun says:

        I believe that also. I feel the same way. The instigation of the confrontation began with George targeting Trayvon and making Trayvon fearful with his stalking and crazy manner.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yes, I can’t stress enough, for those who have not yet seen the work of Tchoupi, Trent Sawyer (aka stateoftheinternet) and others who have worked on the RATL cctv’s. The car traffic in the area was abysmally low to non-existent and TM was the only one on foot.

          Any car that coursed through the area would have attracted some attention, if only passingly so. A car that was stopping in the road way, turning and aiming it’s lights, would immediately become an obvious object of curiosity. The cctv’s analysis shows that there was a vehicle doing just that, making a spectacle of itself by clearly moving in tight traces in the area, and not heading for any particular destination.

          At one point GZ even says that TM came over to his truck and he rolled down the window. TM asked “Are you following me?”, GZ says, to which he replies that he’s not following TM and he rolls the window back up. Later on, when the matter begs the question: “Why didn’t you take the opportunity then, to allay TM’s fears by identifying yourself?” GZ’s answer is to drop that narrative entirely from his story.

          So, at GZ very first acknowledgement that he confronted TM, (and he had, because if he had not made a spectacle of his following, he would never have been asked any question), GZ chose to remain a sinister actor and preserve an aura of hostility, by lying and continuing to act strangely. Thus, he was not a mere NW’er, but an ill intended person seeking to strike fear in the heart of a person, he supposedly knew nothing about.

          In any event, this concern he caused TM to experience is the initial confrontation, because it clearly demonstrates that GZ was not interested in keeping the neighborhood safe, but was, in fact, hell bent on making it a fearsome place to be.

          It was this fear that he, himself provoked, that caused the remaining events to play out. Thus, he is responsible for everything that happened that night, and he is without good cause for having done so!

    • Yes indeed, reasonably speaking.

  17. esentrick says:

    Good Evening – I have been reading this blog for a short while and this is my first time posting. I am glad that Marinadedave blog, Trent Sawyer and LLM Papa video’s led me here as I found everyone here to be very intellectual. It is nice to see a network of people who are so passionate about seeing justice for TM as I am and express themselves intellectually.

    My first question was in moderation, so forgive me if I posted multiple times or if I am a little off topic. I am bit curious on SYG/SD hearing and the difference between preponderance of evidence and beyond reasonable doubt. Could someone shed some light on the matter? Additionally, could expert witness be presented in at the SYG/SD hearing as well? Thanks in advance.

    • Zimmerman will have the burden of proving self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence (i.e., more likely so than not so) at the Self-defense/SYG hearing.

      If he fails and the case goes to a jury trial, the State will have the burden of disproving self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt (i.e., a doubt for which a reason exists).

      Welcome to the blog.

    • @esentrick:
      Welcome! You are amongst friends here! We are all respectful of one another, and Professor Leatherman will let you know in a NY minute, if you cross any boundaries. The group of posters here are very friendly, intellectual and you will learn a lot. There is no such thing as stupid question. Please feel free to post and voice your opinions. Someone will always respond to you always We keep it real here and their is no racism, bigotry or sexism allowed. We are just fighting for justice for TM and his family. It is what they deserve. Once again: Welcome!

  18. Tee says:

    Just wondering, since the Decision was made not to charge Zimmerman did the SPD at least try to prove that he was telling the truth. Was George able to show the police where is head had been beat into the concrete. Even if it was raining there should have been some blood, skin, tissue something to prove he was in that spot. Did the SPD even take pictures of the spot that Zimmerman said was the place where his head had been slammed. A person don’t get there head slammed into something as hard as concrete and not leave DNA somewhere on it.

    • gbrbsb says:

      I am a bit confused. Can a police decision not to charge be final, I mean, can they alone make that decision without passing by the judiciary? For example, the shooter of the learning disabled adult Daniel Adkins killed last March with the shooter claiming SYG has only just been charged while all this time it looked as if he was going to walk away. Further, BDLR told the court the SPD investigation was still ongoing when Corey took over in one of the last hearings. In the UK I remember cases where after trial… no sunshine laws here… we have seen how the police were of the who and other things but didn´t have the evidence to charge so they just watched and waited until the suspect made a mistake to make the proverbial gotya!

      • There is no statute of limitations that prohibits charging a person with murder. Whenever a prosecutor decides that the police have collected sufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a particular person committed a murder, the prosecutor can seek a grand jury indictment charging that person with murder.

        For example, we have seen many cases languish for many years, without an indictment, despite police having collected substantial against a primary suspect, but not sufficient evidence in the prosecutor’s opinion to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

        Rather than risk trying the case, losing, and then being barred from retrying the defendant by the Double Jeopardy Clause of the Sixth Amendment, the prosecutor decides to wait for new evidence to turn up.

        That new evidence turned out to be DNA test results in the Green River Killer case. The police had identified Gary Ridgway as the prime suspect in 1987, but he denied committing the murders and he passed a polygraph test, so they let him go and, as we now know, he continued to kill.

        Before they let him go, however, the police collected and preserved a buccal swab for DNA testing. Thirteen years later when the crime lab started using PCR/DNA testing in casework, an analyst matched his DNA profile to the profile of the male contributor to a biological sample on vaginal swabs obtained from three of the killer’s victims at their autopsies.

        He was rearrested and has now pled guilty to 50 murders in exchange for a life-withhout-parole sentence.

        Sometimes murders are not prosecuted due to corruption and that appears to have been the situation with Zimmerman, until Angela Corey was appointed by the governor of Florida to take over the case.

        Other times, it’s due to the lack of evidence and subsequent discovery of new evidence, as was the situation in the Ridgway case.

        Regrettably, sometimes that new evidence never turns up. We tend to see this happen in cases involving missing persons whose bodies have never been found, or if found, the bodies were reduced to bones and unidentifiable.

        • gbrbsb says:

          Thanks Professor for such a clear and detailed explanation. Silly me… of course murder does not prescribe in the US and probably not in any jurisdiction.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Correction, my reply should have read: “…the police were sure of the who and other things…”

    • Jun says:

      from what I read, the cops never stated they were planning on not charging, they simply stated there was insufficient evidence for charges but Serino felt there was enough for manslaughter

  19. colin black says:

    But apart from that no ones going to die or even think they are dieing from a broken or bloody nose Kids run into wall glass doors as do adults all the time an no one dies from a whak on the noggin .Besides by the time he shot even george admits he had physical control of Trayvon knew the police wher en route any minuite.Had a wrist lock angun levalled at Trayvon an claimed to yellin at top of his lungs for help…WHY didnt we hear him yell STOP HITTIN ME I HAVE A GUN LOADED POINTED AT YOUR HEART.STOP AN SURRENDER OR I WILL SHOOT?Whw didnt he shout a warning .He never bothers to intoduce himself as a concerned N H W person/residet/Never bothers to inform Trayvon with all his desprste shouting that he is armed scared an about to shoot unless he stops hoittin the police are on there way…No none o that just bang……..Because it was Trayvon begging for mercy from a creature without a soul.

  20. colin black says:

    An Jm yes a punch or more apt a strike to the nose can indeed be lethal if delivered by a martial arts expert or even some realy unlucky punches to the nose have proved fatal .But there no self defence from thease strikes as there kill shots .The techniqe is to phisyically push the persons cartlige throught there nasal cavity an ramm it into there brain .With one expplosive flathand palm foward push /punch.Can kill instantly if delivered at precicely the right angle…

    • Jun says:

      that move is not likely possible by the average person

      the nose cartilage would break before even being able to enter the skull as the skull is a harder bone than the nose cartilage

      a technique like that would take so long to master, it is silly to even think it would work

      likely the average person doing the upward palm strike to the nose would just cause a bloody nose

    • Malisha says:

      Rachael, Oh HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA oh no oh no it hurts, noooooo HA HA HA HA HA OMG OMG I just FOTF laughing my ass off and bumped my head and it felt like my head exploded ouch ouch ouch HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA noooooo, noooooooo! STOPPIT stoppit I can’t breathe!

      • cielo62 says:

        LOL! Only 13 signatures!

        Sent from my iPod

      • Rachael says:

        Thirteen now? Wow things are really picking up. There were only 8 when I looked at it. LMAO!

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        13 people signed this petition…CTH commentators…LOL
        #13 Alison C.
        #12 Carole G
        #11 carolyne c.
        #10 Phil S.
        #9 Dee N.
        #8 Henry S.
        #7 Diane S.
        #6 Preston S.
        #5 Serena J.
        #4 ROBERT Z> from Lake Mary, FL.
        #3 Deborah K.
        #2 Rena V.
        and the person who started is David P. from CA.

      • gbrbsb says:

        So that would be… Shelie, PapaZ, MamaZ, BroZ, Taffy, MarkO, SoniaO, JOliver, SHanty, Omar, Muminlaw, Diwaiterman… and… okay, fess up, who signed it?

      • Rachael says:

        Malisha, you could shoot me and say it was self-defense because you thought you were going to die from my post.

      • Lynn says:

        Almost midnight and they’re up to 21 signatures.
        My favorite is # 17. Goergeisamurderer Z.

      • ladystclaire says:

        So much for Robert Zimmerman of Lake Mary Fla being in “HIDING!” a person who is on the run because of receiving death threats, DON’T GO ONLINE AND SIGN A PETITION, and list their city of residence! this entire family have got their masters in lying.

      • Malisha says:

        Wait Wait, among the signatures I see Grace Z (sister Gracie) and Robert Z (bro Robert Jr.) but I do not see Shellie Z (oh where oh where has his good wifey gone, oh where or where can she be?) and I do not see “Mark O” and I do not see “Joe O” and I do not see “Frank T” and I do not see Billy L or NOrman W. Strange, also, I see somebody whose first name is “Georgeisamurderer” and someone else whose first name is “Juniorsuxcocks” — what on earth is going on with that petition? Hmmmm? 😛

    • Tzar says:

      smarmy charlatanism…they have no shame

      • brown says:

        How eerie, a witch’s coven number. 13

        • cielo62 says:

          Covens aren’t evil. As a Wiccan, I can assure you. Otherwise I would need to remind you that the Last Supper had 13 members. 🙂

          Sent from my iPod

          • brown says:

            I stand corrected. : ^ ) not all covens are for evil practices. Santería. : ^ 0

          • cielo62 says:

            :^o indeed!

            Sent from my iPod

          • Xena says:

            Covens aren’t evil. As a Wiccan, I can assure you. Otherwise I would need to remind you that the Last Supper had 13 members. 🙂

            13 is the number of completeness. There were also 13 columns to Solomon’s Temple. The Israelites marched around Jericho 13 times. After Judas’ death, the Apostles cast lots and elected Mathias to replace Judas. Then came Paul.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            The great seal of the United States, if I recall contains 13 items that contain 13. Thirteen leaves in the laurel, thirteen strips on the flag etc.

          • What about Peter and Mary?

          • Xena says:

            What about Peter and Mary?

            Peter was among the original 12 apostles. Mary may have been considered a disciple.

          • I was snarkin’, Xena.

            Peter, Paul and Mary. The folk music group.

            But back to Mary Magdalene. My understanding is that she and Jesus lived together as husband and wife and they probably had kids.

            Thomas was his brother and Thomas and Mary both wrote gospels that were later banned as heretical because the people organizing the Christian church and selecting gospels to include in the New Testament did not like their anti-authoritarian message and dismissal of the idea that a person could not communicate directly with God without the necessity of going through a priest.

          • Xena says:

            I was snarkin’, Xena.

            Peter, Paul and Mary. The folk music group.

            (Palm hit) LOL!!! Sorry. How could I forget that!!

            But back to Mary Magdalene. My understanding is that she and Jesus lived together as husband and wife and they probably had kids.

            That wouldn’t surprise me.

            Thomas was his brother and Thomas and Mary both wrote gospels that were later banned as heretical because the people organizing the Christian church and selecting gospels to include in the New Testament did not like their anti-authoritarian message and dismissal of the idea that a person could not communicate directly with God without the necessity of going through a priest.

            I have a copy of the Gospel According to Thomas — think it’s on the harddrive of my desktop computer. IMO, it’s more spiritual than the 4 Gospels published in the NT. I read the apocrypha books in the Jerusalem Bible that is approved by the Roman Catholic Church. Can’t understand why they would include the story on Bal and the Dragon.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Guys, I think he was referring to Peter, Paul and Mary of Vietnam War fame.

          • Xena says:

            Yeah Lonnie. Professor reminded me of that. LOL!!

            Hey, I know of Peter, Paul and Mary, but We Five were about as close as I would get to folk music. LOL!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Few people were actually into folk music per se back then, it was an age and an era that you had to live through to understand it. There was the overarching war we were protesting, while the biggs in D.C. were calling the shot and we clearly saw what they were doing, the usual self serving stuff, military industrial complex and all. We didn’t have the internet, so we chose to make plain people the vanguard thrust of the protest. Because movements need symbols and that’s where folk music came in. It had an air of underground subculture to it, so that when it was played it was a protest all by itself.

            People acted “folksy” to let others know they were “hip” and “with it” and so they became “hippies”. Like I said it was an era you had to live through to really understand it. Even the streets had the underground thing going on. And the suits were known as “Plastic” people. Obviously we were very near the dawn of America’s love affair with plastic, rubbermaid and tupperware led the charge. Along with Dow Chemical and Du Pont.

          • Xena says:

            Well Lonnie, I was a teenie booper, but I loved music and even listened to Barbra Streisand. Yet, I still have figured out what the hell Procol Harem was singing about. LOL!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            LOL… Me neither.

            I didn’t mean to give the impression that nobody was into folk music, we loved it, but I suspect it would not have had the wide audience it got, if it had not be so well adopted to the war protest. The “plain folks” folksy voice made a poignant point that it was “just people” opposing the war, rock music simply could do that, nor does it present the calm needed to not sound paranoid or frantic.

            Ah yes, Barbra! Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye filled out our days.

          • @Lonnie:
            Take me back Lonnie! Barbra! Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye and don’t forget Aretha, James Brown, The Jackson 5, Jefferson Airplane, Joe Cocker, and all of The British Invasion groups!

            Back in the day, I listened to everything under the sun and attended every concert at the Felt Forum, and MSG! Of course, R&B, Jazz, Soul, Pop, Rock…folk music too. I used to go to NYC (I grew up on L.I.) with friends from school and go to the coffee houses (remember those joints) and see these vocalists in person! I remember seeing, Richie Havens and, The Mama’s and the Papa’s when they were a young group! I even spoke to Cass Ellliot! She had a banging voice! I was so sad when she pased in ’75. I couldn’t believe it. She was one nice human being who didn’t realize what a real vocalist she was!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Talk about take you back?!? You take me back… I first saw Mama Cass at a converted warehouse in upper Miami Beach, in the days before there were disco’s, they had painted the walls with the crazy murals and I was on south beach with a group who got me to try pot for the first time. We went up past the Castaways 168th street I think and they had a psychadelic light show going to beat the band. All I can remember thinking is “WOW”, the music, the voices the crowd was over 2,000 in one place, it was truly a thing to behold, and a very good time was had by all. I was tripping for well over 24 hours, I guess it was because my system was so clean. Anyway, for 24 hours it was a real fantasy dream world where everything just kept going right. Went to Jai Ali courts at Dania and bet every game, won piles of money (laugh) I just couldn’t pick a bad player. The silliest bet I made would win. Someone said that a player had come off a broken limb and I bet on him big and won again. I spent the next month or two Hotel Hopping, Fountainbleu, Castaways etc., and huge banana splits, hamburgers by day and steaks by night. It was an incredible time.

          • @Lonnie:
            Great post! You just brought back so many memories for me Lonnie! My Uncle used to reside in Washington Heights in the 60’s with his wife and kids, and I mentioned to him what you wote and he started LOL! He remembers the place that you wrote about! Never knew you lived in Miami. I have only visited there but hearing that, my mind went immediately to TM and his Mom. ::SIGH::

            The old days were so much fun! I remember going to the Coffee Houses, and talking to the vocalists after their sets. I remember going to the Apollo, and seeing the artists walking down 125th street in Harlem signing autographs and talking to the kids and then sneaking out! I have such memories of talking to Mama Cass and Florence Ballard of The Supremes. Florence was sweet, and Cass was so humble. I could entertain you for days with my concert stories. I had to go over to Youtube to listen to some of these old bands, and solo singers. I am on vacation this week at my mom’s, so I am just relaxing.

            You could never do what we did back in the old days now. It is just ot dangerous for entertainers to have such access to the public now. I was so young back then, and me and my friends would go to every single club in NYC! LOL! Thanks for the memories bro!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Thank you as well. NO, we’ll never get those day back ever again.
            If you met a group and joined in, whoever had the most money spent it, you went clubbing and did not need a dime. You could stick out your thumb and get free rides all around the country and never even think about a serial killer or even much in the way of any trouble at all.

            I may just start a blog to remember the old days.

            But that’s exactly why this GZ is so horrible. Just trying to imagine someone going out of their way to cause trouble, then killing a harmless kid with a firearm and trying to lie to everyone about it. And such obvious lies, and yet he almost got away!

          • Xena says:

            @Lonnie. Don’t get me started. 🙂 Curtis Mayfield; Bob Dylan; Sly and the Family Stone; I could go on and on.

          • @Xena: Hi girlfriend! Sly and The Family Stone? Yes, this is another group that i saw at The Apollo Theater! Sly turned it out! I still play him today. My daughters want to know where are groups like the ones we named? Bob Dylan was in a class by himself, and loved Eric Clapton!

          • Xena says:

            In Chicago, we had the Regal as our answer to the Apollo. I remember waiting in line for over an hour to get in to see James Brown. In the late 60’s, concerts moved to Grant Park. I saw Sly and the Family Stone there. I was still young and was under the city’s curfew, but after high school, would slip into Old Towne (was still underage — 17). As long as I hung out with college kids and wasn’t out after the buses stopped running, my mom wouldn’t jack me up. 🙂

            I wasn’t big on Rush Street, although there were more musicians there. The stuck-up kids hung out there in their go-go boots. (We wore sandals.) LOL!

          • cielo62 says:

            Peter, Paul and Mary: the folk singers. I always loved their music!

            Sent from my iPod

      • brown says:

        It took them this long to think of getting a petition going. Boy oh Boy

      • ladystclaire says:

        How shameful these people really are. the rest of the world is watching not only this case, but the ignorance of some in this country as well. oh the hypocrisy of it all by those who want to see a buffoon get away with murdering an innocent AA kid. these people have no morals what so ever!

        • Xena says:

          @ladystclaire. What the Zidiots are saying is that no authority had the right to arrest George Zimmerman because HE said he killed an unarmed 17 yr old in self-defense. As GZ said that he doesn’t second guess God, he demands that his worshipers not second guess him. The petition is the Church of Zimmerman. The last I checked, it had all of 24 members nationwide.

          Think of it like this also — GZ’s worshipers are sending out a clear message to O’Mara that they don’t trust him.

    • Jun says:


      When did investigating a man killing a kid equate malicious prosecution LMAO

      so what are we supposed to do now according to them? Whenever an adult stalks and shoots and testifies a truly iffy concocted and coached story, we should just let it be, otherwise it is malicious to investigate and question

      If that is how they feel, they need to move to Shariah Law countries where they believe DNA and forensics is the work of the devil

    • Xena says:


      And so they have 20 signatures, of which 3 is from the treeslum. Wonder if they will get the needed almost 25,000 in about a month. LOL!!

      Okay Professor. Here’s an idea for a post. Separation of powers under the constitution, and why the government cannot order an investigation for “malicious prosecution” when a person is under jurisdiction of the courts.

      • Malisha says:

        Before there can be an action for malicious prosecution, there must be a FAVORABLE ruling on the prosecution. That is, until and unless Cheorge is cleared, the petition is asking for something that just plain can’t happen under American law. Now if Cheorge would like an investigation performed under Sharia law, that’s probably a possible, but Shellie would have to start wearing a burka.

        • Xena says:

          Before there can be an action for malicious prosecution, there must be a FAVORABLE ruling on the prosecution.

          True. I still wish that the Professor would write a page about constitutional separation of powers. Whoever wrote that petition apparently doesn’t know about it. To wit — the Executive Branch cannot investigate a case that is before a court. Also, the federal branch of government cannot interfere with State rights to prosecute based on State statute. IOW’s, this isn’t about the cause of action, but the constitution.

    • Xena says:

      Oh, btw, with names such as “Georgeisamurderer Z” and “Jrsuxcock J” the Obama Administration is REALLY going take them seriously, right? LOL!!!

    • groans says:

      No. Not seriously. Malicious prosecution (last I knew) is a civil action unrelated to a State’s prosecution of a crime.

      Anyone out there with me on this understanding?

      • groans says:

        That is, it’s not something that the public at large “petitions” for. GZ could file such a civil action, or not – it’s not something that would normally be subject to some public “petition.”

      • Xena says:

        No. Not seriously. Malicious prosecution (last I knew) is a civil action unrelated to a State’s prosecution of a crime.

        Anyone out there with me on this understanding?

        Oh yes. It covers financial damages mainly, and since GZ has none of his own money, I wonder how that would play out in a civil suit unless he plans on reimbursing all of his donors.

        Besides this, (I would love for the Professor to do a post on it), there are constitutional separation of powers. GZ is currently under the jurisdiction of the Florida judicial system.

      • Xena says:

        @groans. Here’s something by an attorney.

      • Rachael says:

        They must have fallen out of their tree again and bumped their heads. Malicious prosecution isn’t something that can be petioned for. George, as the “injured” party is the only one who can bring suit. And along with that, it sounds like they don’t even know what it is
        s http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=malicious+prosecution

        How do the not feel totally embarrassed.

        Seriously outhouse?

      • grahase says:

        I do hope that the names affixed to a petition are verified. GZ supporters will have their wives sign, their children sign, Uncle Willy who is senile sign, etc., etc. I am watching the President on television right now and can only imagine how this GZ punks woes compares to the Israel – Hamas conflict. Hmmm…

      • Rachael says:

        IDK grahase, the only thing that could be more embarrassing than creating that laughable petition would be signing it and admitting you have no idea what you are signing and are just a sheep. It is obvious from the wording the creator of it has no idea what malicious
        prosecution is and they are hoping to get what is it, a total of 25,000 people stupid enough to sign something they dont even kn ha

      • Rachael says:

        oops, was texting from my phone and got knocked off by a call – anyway – they are getting 25,000 people to sign something admitting they have no clue as to what they are signing?



      • Rachael says:

        And worse yet is there is a signature on there from Robert Z. If that is THE Robert Z, be it Jr. or Sr., they of all people should know.

        Oh well, it is funnier than watching reruns of Seinfeld. Now it’s time for bed.

        Good night all.

      • Rachael says:

        Here is the definition in my state and it sounds more like what they are “trying” to say but still doesn’t work and is sertainly not something that can be petitioned. Now I really am going to bed as I smh. Unbelievable.


        • Xena says:

          That petition wants the “Obama Administration” to investigate for malicious prosecution. That is a violation of the constitution’s separation of powers because George Zimmerman is under Florida judicial jurisdiction receiving due process of law. If he is acquitted, he can pursue a cause of action for malicious prosecution in which case, he has to produce evidence on his own dime and time. No government agency is going to do an investigation for him.

          This is the Zidiots’ last ditch effort to prevent George from proceeding to an immunity hearing and trial.

      • Jun says:

        There was no malicious prosecution

        There was probable cause and reasonable suspicion for investigation and arrest and indictment

        If there is proof of malicious prosecution then Zimmerman should have no problem proving that it was not an apparent murder and he cant

      • ladystclaire says:

        OMG rachael, LMAO on that one for sure. with Robert Z being a retired magistrate, one would think he would know better than to sign that POS! well I guess that just goes to show just how dumb he is.

      • Rachael says:

        @Xena – “That petition wants the “Obama Administration” to investigate for malicious prosecution.”

        and now when their petition gets laughed at, rather than accepting responsibility for the fact that there is no justiciability, they are going to cry that Obama is racist.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        They’re up to 28 so far, not good, they’re not going to make it. they need several hundreds per day, they’re getting only 5 or 6 per hour.

        Matters not, the Feds are not going to stop a state prosecution! Even a million signatures would be of no help.

      • Yes and No.

        Malicious prosecution is a civil cause of action against an identified person(s) who attempts to instigate a criminal prosecution against the injured party for malicious purposes.

        Here’s Wiki:

        Malicious prosecution is a common law intentional tort, while like the tort of abuse of process, its elements include (1) intentionally (and maliciously) instituting and pursuing (or causing to be instituted or pursued) a legal action (civil or criminal) that is (2) brought without probable cause and (3) dismissed in favor of the victim of the malicious prosecution. In some jurisdictions, the term “malicious prosecution” denotes the wrongful initiation of criminal proceedings, while the term “malicious use of process” denotes the wrongful initiation of civil proceedings.

      • Malisha says:

        Indeed it is a civil action, but can’t be brought unless the plaintiff (which would be Cheorge himself) gets off. So let him just wait and see if he has “standing to sue.” HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!

    • ladystclaire says:

      It ain’t going to happen! if anything, George will have federal charges leveled at him and, I pray that he does. he took away Trayvon’s right to life, love and the pursuit of happiness. the people who are bringing forth that petition just don’t know what a can of worms they are opening for their “ZERO.” BRING IT ON!

      • Rachael says:

        Yeah, and his fifth amendment constitutional rights to life, liberty and property too!

      • jm says:

        OMG love the obviously fake names on the petition. I’m almost tempted to sign it with another joke name. So far 29 people have signed and they only need 24,971 to go. Good luck on that.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Hahaha… 24 signers have left their IP addresses behind to trail them. I sincerely doubt they are of any consequence, probably holding either lowly paid or no jobs at all.

      Hey, why not start a petition to have GZ declared an enemy combatant and sent to GITMO? For ignoring TM’s Constitutional rights? Bet that get’s more signatures more quickly.

  21. colin black says:

    jm says:

    November 18, 2012 at 4:31 pm

    “Think its agreed gz suffered a likely broken nose.”

    Without ever having had a broken nose, can one self-diagnose a broken nose immediately and if so, is this in anyway life-threatening and grounds for killing someone in self-defense? I mean since the head injuries are being downplayed as they should given the topical lacerations, all they have now is a possible broken nose to justify killing a teen GZ followed and likely confronted.

    Reply …Technicaly a broken nose is a multitude of conditions /injurys /none of wich are a traditinal break of bone.Because there is no nose bone to break .You have cartlige as you notice in a skull theres a huge nasal hole /cavity .As there holes where the eyes where in the socketts.Eyes rot quiker than bone as does cartlige as neither is bone.So even a slight fracture to cartlige is calssed as broken nose .A none fracture but nose knoked out of alignemment can be refered to as broken nose.But as Ive stated the word broken is a missnomer when it comes to the nose.Most often noses get bruised an swollen as results from blunt force trauma.Carttlige is a tough flexable material more akin to flesh than bone,An bleeds an bruises.Bones can also bleed an bruise but cartlige does so more readily.Cartlige is tough sinuey somehat flexable an almost impossable to break clean or shatter like bone……….

    • Malisha says:

      There is, nevertheless, a medical diagnosis for a broken nose. It can only be made if there is an X-ray. The X-ray is evidence that the nose can be called “broken” or “fractured.” No X-ray, no evidence of a broken nose, and it doesn’t matter what else is “likely.” None of what happened that night was “likely.”

      • ladystclaire says:

        You are exactly “RIGHT!” there would have to be documented proof, via an X-ray or MRI as proof that a nose has indeed been broken. the wording which was written by the PA did not by any means say that he had a broken nose for sure. that is why she/he suggested that he follow up with an ENT in order to find out for sure by the ENT ordering test to make a determination one way or another. MOM just don’t know how much he looked like an @$$, standing up in court waving GZ’s medical report around, containing that photo shopped black and white photo in it which is not an X-ray.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        “Likely” is not a diagnosis, it’s an opinion. George forewent a diagnosis and merely obtained a “useful opinion”. “Useful” for media purposes, not for a court of law. Even failed law student GZ should know that.

      • tonydphotog says:

        Is there any evidence that his nose was even bleeding? When I look at the photos from that night, I don’t see any signs of a bloody nose. What I see is the blood from the cuts on the back of his head trailing to his nose area. I’m pretty sure that his shirt, and/or jacket, would have plenty of blood on them if his nose had been bleeding. I just don’t see it.

    • Rachael says:

      See, that is why diagnostic studies need to be done to determine a “broken nose,” because the term is kind of a catch-all and without proper diagnosis, means nothing. However, GZ refused. When they say “broken nose,” what do they mean? Deviated septum? Bloody nose? Or actual nasal bone fractures. Getting hit in the nose with resultant bleeding does not mean any of these things occurred, even if there is swelling. So if he is going to claim a “broken nose,” even if the PA “said” it was a “broken nose” it was stated there was no septal deviation. So what was “broken?” It is a loose term that could mean anything and by itself, means nothing. So while it may (or may not) be agreed GZ had some kind of injury to his nose, a “likely”(which is not a clinical term) “broken nose” (also not a clinical term) is just not true.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Colin, you wouldn´t call a broken nose a “misnomer” if you´d had one. It´s b….y painful! I´ve had 2; the first, a car accident and a few years later a maxillofacial surgeon (plastic to friends!) had to break it again to try to straighten it because it was set crooked the first time… it´s still crooked! The nose is formed by are 2 / 3 bones welded to the skull the the cartilage being a very small part which is only about half it´s full length.

  22. colin black says:

    gbrbsb done! (Curiously Latinos seem to like this stuff and I found a lock called “Peruvian Necktie” on another web). …..Mmm not quite as bad as a Columkbian Necktie…Consists of a deep throat slit ear to ear then the tounge is pulled down through the throat an exposed hanging down as a boody /necktie…………

  23. Rachael says:

    “the defense can argue that it occurred when GZ admitted to getting on Trayvon’s back.”

    And then, of course they would then have to answer as to why GZ was on Trayvon’s back.

    • Xena says:

      And then, of course they would then have to answer as to why GZ was on Trayvon’s back.

      True, but GZ has already said why. Rather than argue GZ’s statement in that regard, I would address where GZ said in his re-enactment that he wasn’t sure if he had shot Trayvon because Trayvon “sat up” and “talked.” My basis for that would be to support a lesser offense on jury instructions for a finding of assault, (20 yr statutory sentence).

      My reason would be that GZ fired a gun in a residential area where he knew people were home (because he said that he saw at least 2 such persons), and after firing his gun and not knowing whether he actually shot Trayvon, he got on Trayvon’s back to restrain him, rather than have concern for where the bullet went.

      I would argue that such action demonstrates a depraved mind because that bullet could have hit a resident while GZ was only concerned with restraining a 17 yr old who GZ said had already given up.

    • ladystclaire says:

      I sure as hell would like to know why he felt it necessary to sit his fat stinking butt on that kid’s back and, him laying there deceased. what was his reason for doing this? was this his way of making sure that he had really accomplished what he set out to do, meaning he wanted to make sure that he had successfully taken Trayvon’s life by speeding up his dying when he sat on his back and had his hands in the area of his neck. was he actually squeezing the rest of the life out of Trayvon? George Zimmerman is a lunatic as well as a monster and, he does not deserve to live! when the time comes for him to meet his maker, GZ is going to suffer like nobody’s business. he is going to suffer so bad, that he is going to be begging GOD to take him but, he will not be allowed to go that easy. he will also see Trayvon before GOD allows him to close his eyes for the last time ever.

  24. Xena says:

    Professor, I would like to address the following:

    Frankly, it is not possible to overestimate the importance and value of a knowledgeable and experienced paralegal to a litigation team.

    When I first took interest in GZ’s case, one of the first things I did was research Florida cases involving SYG.

    If I worked for defense or prosecution, the Orr case would be a significant inclusion in a memorandum so the attorneys can see how the parties argued, and how judges reached their determination. GZ’s claims practically mirror those of Orr, including the head bashing.

    In the Orr case, the State introduced lab evidence for debris. Orr claimed that he was pinned on his back while having his head bashed on concrete, and unable to get away, forcing him to defend himself by stabbing the victim to death. The lab report set forth that the lack of debris on Orr’s clothing did not substantiate that he was pinned down. The lab tech’s testimony was important because having any liquid, dirt, grass, etc. on clothing does not mean that the person was pinned. The debris has to be significant.

    IOWs, I would suggest that it matters not whether GZ was ever on his back but rather, does the lab report support that he was PINNED on his back.

    In the Orr case, the State also argued blood splatter. It is my impression that the State in GZ’s case can argue the direction of blood flow to substantiate that GZ was in a top position. Of course, the defense can argue that it occurred when GZ admitted to getting on Trayvon’s back. That would then require testimony that when the EMT’s arrived, the blood had dried on GZ’s head and an expert opinion for how long that would take.

    Also, I would look for an expert on the matter of moving while the head is bleeding, causing the jacket and shirt beneath it to raise. With GZ’s clothing moving upward, would that also mean there should be blood on the collar of the jacket if indeed the head was bleeding?

    Along with this, in the Orr case, the State argued inconsistencies in what he told police opposed to his testimony at the immunity hearing. Thus, I would list inconsistencies in GZ’s re-enactment and Hannity interview, compared to his NEN call, as those should be able to get admitted into evidence.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Inconsistencies? This GZ is a regular Tsunami of inconsistencies!
      In fact, it’s easier to list the consistencies, since there are only one or two. One is that everything he says is a lie, the second is that everything he does is unfathomably stupid. Those are the only two consistencies I see.

      • Xena says:

        LOL@Lonnie Starr. There’s another consistency; that he saw at least two residents who said they were calling 911 and he told them not to.

  25. LLMPapa says:

    Interesting article, Professor. I feel the State’s case would benefit greatly by testimony from an expert on time/distance/speed analysis, and Forensic mapping.

    It seems to me if you convince the jury his story’s “where and when” is a lie, his version of “why” isn’t likely to be believed either.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Yes, but if you could also convince that “how” was a lie too, then even better!

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      True, but one still has to be prepared to do battle on every issue, since the defense will likely put much effort into keeping the doors closed, that lead to anything negative for them. Although it’s hard to see how they might succeed, the prosecution has to be prepared to take immediate advantage of what doors open up as they do.

      If the defense detect weakness in any area, you can bet that’s where they’re going to gravitate to and keep the focus on.

      • ed nelson says:

        I came up with a question today, while parusing some videos… which is:… ” Isn’t it true that both of the players had cell phones on their person?”

        Now today we all have these devices, and we all mostly realize these devices are equipped with feed back systems like Gps, that via the feedback, tells of our whereabouts… 24/7, and so on and so forth.

        So my question is: Knowing that this kind of tech is “de rigure” now… (How would you suboena the needed “exculpatory data” that would be needed to prove your clients defensive expository case? In particular in the instance that, such data is a “proprietary” owned and secreted item… (and you know that!).


        • Lonnie Starr says:

          If such data is available, it would have resided on the server, because it would have been used to compile “roaming” charges for billing purposes. That would be the domain of the FBI who has the software to make use of the data. You need the location of two towers receiving the call data. So, how accurate your map will be, depends on tower density in the area. Of course that would mean that there would be a huge amount of data being collected for each call, I sincerely doubt it would be done. So I don’t think it’s likely we’ll get any results from this line of investigation.

          For a live call it’s probably possible, but not for calls that have ended.

      • ed nelson says:

        well, so check this out!

        I mean… listen to it, and consider it.

  26. gbrbsb says:

    I found this set of 6 videos by “grapplemonkey” showing different wrist locks months ago when pondering about what GZ meant when he told Serino he had “wrist control” and because from when I first I heard the 911 screams I was certain that the voice wailing and shrieking was in considerable pain.

    Especially interesting are 1, 3, & 5 as the demonstrator is bottom demonstrating, imo, that no way could Trayvon have been banging GZ´s head against the concrete… not unless GZ suffers locked in syndrome!!!… cos even at 5ft 2″ I could defend myself better than GZ appears to have done! (Curiously Latinos seem to like this stuff and I found a lock called “Peruvian Necktie” on another web).


    (I don´t know how to embed but the link is as above… tried and tested!)

  27. cielo62 says:

    >^..^< thankyou thankyou very much. Gatito following

  28. Dennis says:

    The way I see it is that Zimmerman must convince the jury that he was punched repeatedly and had his head smashed into the concrete. If those claims are proven false, there is nothing left to go on for self-defense. Even worse is that his credibility will be shot and the jury will not believe anything else Zimmerman has claimed. They will have no choice but to convict.

    The prosecution needs only to prove “criminal agency”, that the death was a homicide as opposed to an accident/self-defense.

    • Rachael says:

      @Dennis – sort of. Somehow the prosecution has to prove that GZ was NOT in fear of his life. Zimmerman does not have to actually even have injuries to state he was in fear of his life. The burden of proof is on the state, not on GZ. However, if the state can prove that nothing happened or it could not have happened the way GZ said, it can cast a doubt on GZ’s statement of fearing for his life – especially if there is some way they can prove it never happened, hence nothing for him to have had fear about.

      • Malisha says:

        The state doesn’t have to prove George was NOT in fear for his life; they only have to prove he was not in REASONABLE fear for his life. Big difference. George could have feared for his life if he found out mommy was mad at him again!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          The only reasonable fear for his life that GZ states he had was: That the Police might find him with his gun drawn holding a teenager. Him saying that demonstrates that if he had any fear, TM was not the focus of it. Because if that were the case, he’d never have had time to formulate any theory about what the Police might do upon their arrival.

          Absent is the “whew that was close” psychology usually associated with narrow escapes of danger.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Rachael, he even told Sean Hannity that he was never at anytime in fear of his “LIFE!” this is why Bernie said that his cameo on Hannity was a gift for the state. there is no damn way that he can claim a broken nose on Sunday night, and be walking around the very next day with a nose as straight as an arrow. if awards were being given out for lying, George Zimmerman would be THE grand winner hands down. it wasn’t enough that he killed this child, he also had to lie on him as well. “MAY HIS SOUL BURN IN HELL FOR ALL OF ETERNITY!”

      • Rachael says:

        You are right Malisha, my bad.

      • @Rachael:
        In fear of his life? How does he explain to the jury, that little dialogue on the 911 tape of TM begging, pleading and screaming, “I don’t know! I don’t know!. Help me Mom! I’m begging you!” Sounds like the victim was in fear of HIS life,and G shot him to shut him up! If G had TM in a wristlock, like he claims, how could he be in FEAR of his life? Just the thought of this demon, having my son in a wrislock, and then jumping on his back to suffocate him? I think I would lose all perspective at one point and hire a hit man (within the prison) to murder this dude while he is in PRISON! I know that is wrong, but I wouldn’t care any longer really after losing my child to this idiot monster!

    • ladystclaire says:

      His credibility has already been shot to hell and then some. GZ is so much like the little boy who cried wolf and, IMO the police dept should have brought charges against him for the excessive non sense calls that he was making any way. GZ is a nosy busy body who had no business of his own to mind and that is why he always had his not broken nose in everybody else’s business. as I have said before, I hope the jury nails his stinking butt to the wall for a long long time! as we all know, he went so far as to falsely accuse a black teen who lived in the complex of stealing his bicycle. I will always believe that Zimmerman and Taaffe were trying to run the few African-Americans that lived in their neighborhood “OUT.” this is why he was coming up with all of the break ins that I do not believe ever happened. it’s pretty darn obvious that they did not want blacks living among them. there were other places that were much nicer than RTL in the very same area, plus businesses with no complaints of break ins at “ALL!” every single time he called about a suspicious looking person in his neighborhood, 99% of the time they were black.

      • Rachael says:

        ” I will always believe that Zimmerman and Taaffe were trying to run the few African-Americans that lived in their neighborhood “OUT.”

        I agree. Fishy stuff going on there.

      • cielo62 says:

        With US, GZ’s word is less than caca. But remember a JURY has yet to hear what we have had the leisure to ponder. The defense must be sure to convey to the jury that GZ is a liar and worthy of 25 years to life behind bars.

        Sent from my iPod

      • gbrbsb says:


        Even caca could be too big a value as to me its worth less than “una caquita”!

      • ladystclaire says:

        I think they also had the blessings of some members of the HOA as well. why would they have the AA male who attended one of the meetings escorted out of the meeting, just for speaking up about what ever they were meeting about? you are spot on, there was something fishy going on in that neighborhood.

  29. colin black says:

    Im calling this guy as a prosecution expert…He is cheap an willing to stay in a Holidu Inn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KYjCQHVTHQ

  30. colin black says:

    Also although the head slamming was made a huge part of why gz had to shoot an kill Trayvon,,,By gz Father an by his brothr robert jnr,,Moments from diperdom…The reason I stated M O M knows it never happened .Is the rapid down play it was barely mentioned in there rhetoric.Indeed by the time M O M gave his LIKELY BROKEN NOSE Speech….Think B D L H refreced it dureing the gag order hearing ..M O M said not ver batum…Think its agreed gz suffered a likely broken nose..An the once brutall head slamming asault was refrenced as some hitting of the head………..

    • jm says:

      “Think its agreed gz suffered a likely broken nose.”

      Without ever having had a broken nose, can one self-diagnose a broken nose immediately and if so, is this in anyway life-threatening and grounds for killing someone in self-defense? I mean since the head injuries are being downplayed as they should given the topical lacerations, all they have now is a possible broken nose to justify killing a teen GZ followed and likely confronted.

    • Malisha says:

      O’Mara never liked that bloody head picture, never wanted to talk about it, and still doesn’t. To him, it’s all about the nose.

      • Xena says:

        O’Mara never liked that bloody head picture, never wanted to talk about it, and still doesn’t. To him, it’s all about the nose

        That pic, taken by a resident, has no chain of command. It is also said that it’s been photoshopped. OTOH, the pic taken at the police station still provide for the flow of blood

        Also for that bloody head photo, GZ is on the phone and apparently sitting down. On what? Someone’s patio furniture? That is inconsistent with his story of seeing someone with a second flashlight who was a cop (T. Smith) who immediately handcuffed and placed him in the backseat of the squad car. In none of his stories does GZ mention about “posing” for a resident to take photos.

  31. JUN says:

    There a champions in various weight classes, but I believe the weight class for Trayvon is the champ Jose Aldo. Yall should also watch the GSP vs Condit fight, which would prove George is a liar, because of the ground and pound (which is what George claimed while Trayvon had him in mount and added a head smashing) both GSP and Condit had blood all over both of them and neither was in serious threat of imminent danger of death or great bodily harm which is contradictory and inconsistent to George’s claims. I also agree that it is better to be safe than sorry and bring all that is needed and more for evidence. I do however believe George’s pics prove he never got hit in the face because his face had no bruising and red marks and only had mini scratches like he fell in a bush (which is why I think he came up with the bush story, because George came out the bush after falling in it). I feel any martial artist would help as martial artists believe in honor and helping others.

    • Malisha says:

      I think the prosecution also needs a professional “fight choreographer” from Broadway to talk about what is and is not possible in a knock-down-drag-out fight. These guys are fantastic physiological experts who know absolutely what works and what doesn’t.

  32. colin black says:

    M O M Knows the sustained head slaming /banging did not happen.As has been stated gz had no hair to grab an get a purchase to even attept to bang his heas .Also stated anyones instinct of surviveal would cause them to stiffen ther neck mucle anpush away levarage to escape.The beating gtz describes is only posssable if he becomes tottaly relaxed an floppy lige a rag doll whilst Tray von grabed his ears an slammed him uuside the concrete for bout fifty seconds say .Thats bout 38 strikes,Also would be impossable to perform the shimmy shimmy 50 feet two step to ged head of the concrete if your floppy an relaxed?Honestly who is going to relax in a combat situation an the only one time you make a defensive move Is not to block a punch.No its to draw your gun an shoot him one time just like that with a wee spin reverse of the gun a wee aim to make sure I dont shoot my own hand an then BAM one time into his chest with a hollow point.An then another little spin about the events leading up to the murder.Totaly relaxed then though after the event all vitals normal .Even had time for a wee chat with a witness about the calibre of gun ammo ect as Trayvon lay at your feet.Im suprised you didnt ask the guy to take a quick snap of him sitting over his kill.Before he asked him to call his wife an report that he had just shot someone.Gz is toast an going down faster than a hooker giveing a blowjob in an express elevator heading for the lobby.It was a Sunday when he first spoted Trayvon i m o at the mailbox shelter thing to avoid the rain an chat with D D.Thers a little truth slips into gz narrative at times.Much as he trys to avoid it.In one of his many versions of why Trayvon looked suss?…Well didnt look like a hard core athlete….Suppose basketball dont exsist in zimmerland……It was raining ..looking about…Didnt look like he was collecting mail or anything..BINGO…Truth leakage mail was on georges mind because the mail shelter is where his surveilanced commenced..Course he couldnt be collecting mail?he was a suspect right.Also its a Sunday dont know bout America but in the UK we dont have mail delivered on Sundays?

    • Xena says:

      Course he couldnt be collecting mail?he was a suspect right.Also its a Sunday dont know bout America but in the UK we dont have mail delivered on Sundays?

      All residents do not get their mail daily. A Saturday mail delivery may run late. Business cannot be conducted until Monday anyway so some people do wait until Sunday evening to get their mail. When GZ said on Hannity’s that Trayvon did not look like someone who came to get their mail and run back out because it was raining, he actually identified that is where he saw Trayvon. That agrees with DeeDee’s statement that Trayvon ran into the mail shed to get out of the rain.

      • gblock says:

        Also, someone might get their mail on Sunday evening if they had gone out of town for the weekend and just got back on Sunday evening.

    • groans says:

      @ Colin – AMEN to that.

    • grahase says:

      Yep. He only talked about the mail once. Once too many. Slip of the tongue…again.

  33. PYorck says:

    To what extent can the prosecution shop around for experts without disclosing it?

    • They do not have to disclose anything unless they decide to call the witness at trial.

      • PYorck says:

        Thanks, I am still a little unclear as to what exactly triggers the discovery rules.

        • The obligation to disclose the name of an expert witnesses does not kick in until you decide you are going to call the witness to the stand.

          For example, you might have retained an expert to consult regarding some evidence the other side intends to introduce. You would not have to identify the witness since you do not intend to put him on the stand.

          If you later decide to call him as a witness, you need to add the expert to your witness list and you need to do it far enough in advance of trial so that the other side has an opportunity to review the expert’s written report and interview the witness about it before trial.

  34. Rachael says:

    Do you think the State will go to the trouble of finding an expert?

    • They should. Whether they will, I do not know.

      I would, if I were prosecuting Zimmerman.

      I’m trying to nudge them in that direction.

      • Rachael says:

        I sure hope so.

      • Xena says:

        Yes!! The suggestion of getting a physical therapist as an expert witness is fantastic. The way GZ describes things, he should have had a sore, stiff neck. In his re-enactment, (with no muscle relaxants prescribed), GZ was moving his head and back freely.

        • @Xena:
          Not only should the state have a PT on hand, but they also should have an ENT, and a Neurologist to discuss what type of internal injuries in the head are sustained from sustaining having your head bashed into the ground and the after effects. An ENT to discuss the trauma sustained from having a broken nose, and what transpires as far as the blood vessels and capillaries in that area, and a PT and a Sports Medicine Physician to discuss the trauma around having the muscles in that area of the neck and shoulders damaged and injured. (WHIPLASH)! By the time they are thru, GZ will wish he were a pretzel!

          SOCK PUPPET ALERT AGAIN: GZ is posting under Newbee100 again, and he must have been on this thread because he mentioned Something that Professor Leatherman posted about the various Doctors and their Specialities. It was a direct quote. I said to myself, he must have either been here, or another poster poster what she read here but she doesn’t post here. Of course I played like I did not know who he was, and reiterated his lies, and the fact that these different Physicians can testify as to what transpires when one has their head bashed 25 times on the ground. Some even end up vegetables, or in a coma state, or in an Assisted Living facility/Nursing Home with brain damage.

          • Xena says:

            SOCK PUPPET ALERT AGAIN: GZ is posting under Newbee100 again, and he must have been on this thread because he mentioned Something that Professor Leatherman posted about the various Doctors and their Specialities. It was a direct quote.

            Hahahahaha!!! That’s right George. Come here for legal information and make sure you give it to O’Mara. That will tell him outright that you’re guilty of murder 2 because you are afraid of expert witnesses who will refute your lies.

      • Tzar says:

        @DGM, how do you know it is GZ?

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      I think they will try to speak to someone with sufficient credentials, to indicate that they might discover something if they pursue it or not.
      If these discussions lead anywhere, then they’d be remiss not to bring in an expert. Maybe a media outfit might make some inquiries themselves, they’re always on the look out for a story that can draw eyeballs. This would certainly make a good headline, eh?

    • groans says:

      My thoughts along those lines: Prosecutors aren’t generally known for their “creative legal thinking” (IMO). Creativity tends to be an unusual but refreshing aspect of defense counsel, in the criminal realm.

      I would be SO pleasantly surprised if the prosecution in this case invested the creative thinking and out-of-the-box approach to this prosecution!

      • @Tzar:
        See above for my post! It is GZ alright! A poster who calls herself Nancy, called him out on it today! LOL! Of course he denied it, but this guy knows to much information that only the killer would know. He is sneaky, sarcastic and completely disrespectful the young victim and his family. His taunts are way too personal for my taste! You should go over to HP and just view his posts from the time he started posting until now like I did! GZ is also a poor writer. He writes like a child. At least the other socks have a diverse vocabulary. GZ lacks grammar skills. Then he has the nerve to quote posters over here and state what we are saying here are lies! LOL! I nformed him that if that is the truth, then come over here and refute them! I am still waiting GZ?

  35. grahase says:

    I really do not understand the EMTs tending to Zimmermans wounds. There are times when someone smashes the back of their head, the result is a nose-bleed. George evidently had wounds to the back of his head and a nose-bleed. The PA says possible broken nose. Well — a crack to the back of the head with a resulting nose bleed is a sign of skull fracture!! I am a skater and had a friend taken to hospital for X-Rays, etc. to rule out skull fractures. Anyone here can probably tell me how many would take a chance and NOT go to get things checked out!!

    His theory is ridiculous and the cops and EMTs at the scene were totally unprofessional by NOT insisting he go for tests — UNLESS, it was obvious that none were necessary.

    If George felt fear for his life, and suffered a possible skull fracture, he would have gone to hospital. To me, since he did not — he DID NOT fear for his life.

    • That says it all, succinctly.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      The only thing GZ feared was having his wounds professionally examined!

      • Rachael says:


        • jm says:

          The thing is by not having the “life-threatening” injuries looked at professionally, he looks less credible. So if he thought his life was in danger enough to shot and kill the “attacker” why would he not want to be seen in a hospital setting and get further testing? I don’t know if this could come up in court though, so maybe it is better he didn’t go to the hospital.

          • It is relevant and admissible evidence that he chose not to go to the hospital.

            He will claim that he decided not to go because he could not afford the ER visit.

            But that’s not a reasonable response, if you have a serious injury, such as a fractured skull and/or a brain hemorrhage.

            The medics and the cops would have insisted he go to the hospital, if the believed there were a reasonable possibility that he was seriously injured.

            The medics checked all of his vitals and they were all well within the normal range.

            Therefore, the reasonable conclusion to draw is that his injuries were minor, not life threatening, he knew it, and he decided not to go to the hospital because he did not want to create a record that would contradict his claim that TM nearly killed him.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes, and this merits a line in the opening statement, to the effect that GZ’s wounds were so superficial he did not want them professionally examined. I’d word it a bit more subtly, something like “It should become obvious as to why he did not want to have a medical doctor look at him as the case unfolds!”

            That plants the seed that causes the jury to look more closely at the elements of the claimed fight and Travyon’s lack of resources to accomplish the attack.

      • groans says:

        Lonnie Starr says: “The only thing GZ feard was having his woulds professionally examined!”

        I’d just add:

        … and associated blood/urine lab work.

      • grahase says:

        Dont forget. Both OMara and Junior are claiming he also had a back injury from the fight. However, I think they have forgotten George buying a special chair for his back to be used at work long before he killed Trayvon. He made a big fuss about it being moved, remember.

        • Xena says:

          Dont forget. Both OMara and Junior are claiming he also had a back injury from the fight.

          Some back injury, uh? I would say that his neck was fine also.

      • Tee says:

        I was wondering why the SPD not take pictures of his wounds the day of his reenactment I would think that the pictures would have added proof to why Zimmerman wasn’t charged. I would have loved to see the pictures of his head the next day. I wonder if the doctor took pictures, they usually do when someone comes in claiming they were injured by the hands of another.

    • Dave says:

      Since GZ told the cops that he had suffered a severe head bashing, the cops should have sent him to the hospital just to be safe on the grounds that a head injury could have rendered him mentally incapable of making an intelligent decision about whether to go or not.

      • The medics checked all of his vital signs and they were normal. His injuries were minor. There was no reason to send him to the hospital.

      • Malisha says:

        Furthermore, the cops would have taken him pronto to the E.R. because they would have wanted it documented that he got his injuries BEFORE THEY TOOK HIM IN FOR QUESTIONING in case he later on said they beat him up themselves. Only because they had an agreement in place already not to charge him with anything and not to do a serious interrogation did they think it was unnecessary to document his pre-interrogation physical injuries.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        George is going to say that he didn’t think he had to go to the ER because ENT’s told him he didn’t need to. I don’t know if any of the ENT’s actually said that or not, but George told Singleton that they did. Hopefully, it will be proven as another one of his lies.

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        EMT’s :oops

      • Malisha says:

        How can non-medical personnel decide whether injuries are serious or not? I would think that they would send the suspect to the E.R. if there was blood and ANY INDICATION that he was hurt, so there would be a record of how badly he was hurt. No?

      • ChrisNY~Laurie says:

        Malisha- George also claims that the EMT’s told him that his nose was broken. What EMT is going to tell a person they don’t need to go to the hospital, especially if they supposedly told him that his nose was broken and his head was supposedly being slammed into the concrete sidewalk? It was just another lie from George. And even if the EMT’s said he didn’t need to go to the ER, a real victim would want to go if this so called beating actually took place, because they would still be afraid for their life and in pain.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @ChrisNY: The EMTs were also never told what happened, ie head bashing. Otherwise they might have insisted, but there is also the fact that GZ’s readings and signs came back as normal.

        As for them saying he didn’t need to go. No based on what they saw and knew they said he should MAYB go for stitches – ie it was his choice to go or not.

        He also refused to go when asked by Ofc. Smith several times before his first interview with Singleton began. Then we have the gem of him only going to his own doc because his JOB said he needed to be cleared to work, not that he actually stuck around to work.

        Between working in a medical office, seeing the aftermath of both a fight at my high school back in the day and a friend’s gay bashing, which both included bouncing heads off the ground amongst other things, I knew GZ was lying the minute I saw his pics and the re-enactment the next day.

      • Tee says:

        @ Frederick Leatherman, the medics checked his vital signs and they were normal.

        You got to be a cold hearted MF for your vitals to be normal after you just killed someone, hell after you just had a physical fight. I’m a nurse I don’t understand his vitals being normal moments after a fight, his blood pressure should have been off the charts his pupils should have been dilated and his breathing should have not been regulated as of yet. (Fight or flight) should be coursing through his veins.Wow! Can you say sociopath

        • Yes, I drew the same conclusion. George Zimmerman was not involved in a fight to save his life and he certainly never was in fear of losing his life.

          More indicative of business as usual . . . yawn.

          Just another day playing sheriff in the neighborhood.

    • Tzar says:

      grahase says:
      “a crack to the back of the head with a resulting nose bleed is a sign of skull fracture!! ”

      I’ll do you one better:
      In that context-given that GZ was claiming bilateral black eyes (battle’s sign), a BASILAR skull fracture , which is a medical emergency, has to be ruled out and skull x-ray is just the beginning. IF THEY BELIEVED, AS SPD AND EMT ALLEGES,THAT GZ HAD THE SYMPTOMS AND HISTORY HE WAS CLAIMING, HE WOULD HAVE HAD A FULL BASILAR SKULL FRACTURE WORKUP, WHICH AUTOMATICALLY NECESSITATES HOSPITALIZATION.

    • thejbmission says:

      You made an excellent point! Why take the chance of not getting checked out, not to mention by going to the hospital it would kind of support his claim of self-defense.
      The only reason I can surmise is that GZ didn’t want to take the chance of being blood tested. There are some test that just check for the presence of a substance and there are others that check the actual levels. A blood test may have indicated a higher level of Adderall suggesting abuse or maybe he was doing a little drinking on this Sunday evening? Because IMO, everything he did that night seemed like he was impaired in some form or fashion.

      • @Tee:
        Hello fellow Nurse! GZ could not have had “normal” vital signs, but then we are talking about a Socio-Path who has no feelings for anyone’s pain, anyone’s child or the suffering of a family. He is only out for himself! GZ operates on what I call “Robotic.” His BP should have been thru the roof as you stated, his pulse also should have been thru the roof! His breathing should have been shallow and labored. My god, I just shot and killed a kid! HIs respirations should also have increased due to this terrible situation but not GZ! He is Mr. Cool, calm and collective! He feels nothing for anybody. Someone asked me about his medication for his ADHD affecting his Vitals, and I said, Absolutely not! This man is a true Socio-path! You can also read my opinion on why he didn’t want to go to the hospital. I never receive an answer from any of the Zimbots on HP when I put that question to them. I stated that his medical bills would have been covered. We have patients who have no medical insurance and we end up sending them to the city hospital here in NYC. GZ is full of shit and we both know it!

    • manberk says:

      FYI on a couple things;

      While George said he was diagnosed w/ a sprained SI (back injury) the medical report called it chronic. New injuries aren’t described as chronic by definition.

      Also, his “nose bleed” was from small scratches on the exterior tip of his nose, which can be seen in his close up pics from the station. The PA found no blood in his membranes and reported no damage at all, really. No deviated septum, no breathing problems, no blood.

      IMO the lies to the contrary are both telling and incriminating. Only one reason to lie, guilt.

  36. he’s kinda cute too..

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Do they ever use the straddling position? I don’t see where they bother much with it. Be nice to have a pro explain why it’s not a favorite.

    • leander22 says:

      thanks for the introduction to Mixed Martial Arts, Shannon, Lonnie. The fight on the video strictly looks like boxing to me, at least the parts I have seen. But I don’t know much about either?

      I think I get an idea why our dear witness John may have “cast” the term into the case. How deeply is the image of There are no rules still rooted in many US heads? I start to understand why the tree crazies were so enamored with it.

    • leander22 says:

      Shannon, Lonnie, thanks for the introduction to MMA. I wasn’t completely aware of the history of the sport, context and proably especially its image of it. Unfortunately I used two links and am caught in the filter.

      But if I may add this with only one link:
      What I would be much more curious about is GZ’s background, from his earlier job as a bouncer or security man. Was there no fitness and training demanded?

      Also: I am assuming the Associate Criminal Justice degree is mainly theoretical. What I do not understand is, how can someone with only theoretical knowledge work in law enforcement then? Don’t you need a bit of physical training for that job too? Or will that be done by training on the job?

      In other words, to what extend should GZ have been able to defend himself without using his gun?

      • groans says:

        Along those lines, I’ve always wondered whether GZ had a history of involvement or infatuation with MMA. I don’t recall whether or not LE confiscated his or his wife’s computer – I don’t recall hearing that they did. But maybe it would reveal a significant interest that wanna-be cop and wanna-be heror GZ had in MMA…?

      • Xena says:

        I am assuming the Associate Criminal Justice degree is mainly theoretical. What I do not understand is, how can someone with only theoretical knowledge work in law enforcement then?

        Not actually theoretical. There are many jobs in the criminal justice field other than law enforcement. Criminal Justice majors can qualify for parole, probation, juvenile, correction officers.

      • gblock says:

        leander22, I would think that to become a policeman, he would have to attend a police academy also, which would provide training in practical police skills. My understanding is that a police department would usually hire new recruits, then send them to whatever police academy they use. Since Sanford is not that big a city, they might not have their own police academy, but there would be a specific one that they send their recruits to.

        • Xena says:

          GZ had been arrested in Florida, and God only knows how many times as a juvenile in Virginia. He could easily have picked up on the restraining methods that the cops used on him. GZ was also a bouncer. I know of security guards at hospitals and Bingo halls who never applied with LE, but were trained by their employers in how to restrain and handcuff.

      • gblock says:

        To clarify further, weapons training and fitness training would be among the areas covered at the police academy.

    • leander22 says:

      Shannon, Lonnie, thanks for the introduction to mixed martial arts, I think with a little help by Wikipedia I get an idea why John may have wanted to use the term, and why the treehouse warriors are enamored with it so much. Could it have to do with its image?

      But strictly I would be much more interested about George’s own knowledge in the field Can you be hired in the US as a security man or bouncer without having any physical or self-defense training? While criminal justice seems to be mainly theoretical, how can you work for law enforcement without the ability to defend yourself if need be even without a gun. Or is that not a rule in the US? I know that fitness and training is a big issue in this type of jobs over here.

      That is, was George Zimmerman at least theoretically not able to defend himself against a 17 year old boy without using his gun?

      My earlier comment was caught in the filter due to two links, no need to bother much about it.

      • leander22 says:

        too much cut and paste: interested about in

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Well, we are all aware that GZ’s claims of helplessness are a crock. He was ready, willing and able to take care of himself in a hand to hand combat situation, at least he had the confidence he needed to try, and expect he could obtain effective results even with adult strangers. TM, on the other hand had no such tried and true skills, he had no reason to believe he could do anything that would cause GZ enough harm to stop him, less defeat him so why would he engage?

        The answer is he wouldn’t engage, he was frightened and did not know what else he could do but try to get away. How could he envision himself fighting with and overcoming this huge grown man?
        At 204 lbs GZ had to seem huge and terribly strong to TM.

        GZ thinks people are too stupid to figure this out. Or he’s simply counting on the system to side with him, because the cops are his friends and will try to help him out of the jam. Turns out they did try!

        • Xena says:

          At 204 lbs GZ had to seem huge and terribly strong to TM.

          At 204 lbs, a grown man falling from a standing position to his back is going to have bruises where his body made contact with the ground. GZ had no bruises.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Yes and further, it goes without saying that he should have shown at the least, a bit of stiffness the next day. His lifestyle, from the narratives about him, seems pretty sedate in the overall. The previous nights vigorous activity should have been visible in flinching body movements the next day. But no, the videos show him acting without the slightest bit of discomfort.

            But then, we’re splitting hairs here. The gross takeaway is that his story never happened and there’s more than enough evidence collected to prove it.

            So, then, why are we still talking about it? Because, although we have enough proof to make it a reasonable assumption that he is lying, we haven’t yet obtained the absolute proof of it, which is probably lurking somewhere just up ahead.

            To that end, I would suggest that it’s time for, those here who are so inclined, to begin working on summaries of what we have so far.

      • groans says:

        Consider, also, that the “large” GZ was also rather short. Perhaps a Napoleon complex…?

      • gblock says:

        leander22, your question points up a valid issue. GZ might have become skilled at using a handgun, but he really had no training in how to handle a “suspicious” person to safely gain compliance. And he didn’t have any of the painful but (usually) non-lethal weapons that American cops often carry to help them do so, such as billy clubs and tasers. This is why the Neighborhood Watch organization warns people to call the police, and not try to detain suspicious people themselves.

  37. the champ is

    ***5 knuckles Junior dos Santos***

    *Fight Alert – UFC 155: Dos Santos vs. Velasquez II

    Record: 13 – 1

    Height: 6’4″ (194cm)
    Weight: 239 lbs

    Fighting out of: Salvador, Brazil

    Junior dos Santos is a Brazilian mixed martial arts fighter. He is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Black belt and is the current Brazilian heavyweight kickboxing champion with a record of 18-0. He fights in the heavyweight division and currently competes for the UFC

    • @camanokat:
      I know for a fact that is GZ who calls himself Newbee100. He can change his sock, but his form of writing does not change. He is to un-intelligent to do so. Several posters from here, who used to post there, informed me, and a few posters on HP informed me in private replies to me. I also figured it out myself, when I posted to him, and he referred to himself?? STUPID! He also has his own photo in the Avator, and the way he replies is as if he takes personal what you say. No one else replies the way he does. He knows things only the killer can know. I just have a feeling it is him posting.

      He also has the nerve to repeat things that others have posted on here and of course, i shoot back with thinly veiled insults at his childish writing and inability to form a cohesive sentence? If GZ writes in the manner that he posts, no wonder he flunked out of college. I cannot imagine how he made thru High School with that third grade writing. Someone who posts there even called him on it, and he just laughed. I shot back that, I don’t find the death of a boy who was begging for his life funny and I also despise the psycho who killed him and that psycho will not find the next 30 years of his life behind bars the least bit funny!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        You should send him some reading and/or movie material on prison life. I’m informed that the missives I’ve written here, are out of date, coming from Sing Sing and Alcatraz books and movies of prisons that no longer exist. LOL.

        • @Lonnie:
          LOL! He probably cannot read! LOL! His writing skills are terrible! He is unable to express himself properly. No wonder he failed college. I cannot imagine GZ writing term papers. I try to insult him daily without getting kicked off of HP like some of the posters who were once there, are now here. He definitely does not like what I say. He does not know how to respond to me. He writes like a child. He writes to me privately when I write something, and he asks me how do I know this, and how do I know that? I explain that the forensic evidence is there for all of us to read and review along with the 911 and NEN phone calls, plus, “GZ” does not know how to keep his big mouth shut! LOL! I will take you up on your offer BTW!

      • Malisha says:

        Look at the written statement he made about “the suspect” which he signed the evening of 2/26/2012. The one where he says “the suspect emerged from the darkness.” That’s Cheorge’s writing style. I wish I knew a good sociolinguist who could do an analysis (for free) of the writing samples taken from Cheorge’s statement to the cops that night and the comments written by “Newbee” — it would be intellectually interesting even though it doesn’t mean anything. He’s allowed to comment on things and he’s allowed to be as foolish and dishonest as Cheorge Zimmerman even if he’s someone different. 😈

        • @Malisha:
          GZ can comment all he wants and he can write to me all he wants. As long as he does, he will be insulted at every turn! He is an idiot who cannot even compose a cohesive sentence so let him have his fun while he sits at home with his lovely ankle bracelet. Checking in every few days. I hope he continues to embarress himself and show us his stupidity.

  38. grahase says:

    There are only a few reasons why Zimmerman would shave his head and, obviously, balding is not one of them.

    1) It is in ‘vogue’ at the moment.
    No. George is not the fashionista type.

    2) He feels the look is intimidating (ie military, skinheads).
    Possible. He is a cop wannabee.

    3) Prevent lice.
    Maybe. Men in prison shave their heads for that reason, too.

    4) There is a certain tactical advantage to a shaved head, or short hair.
    ABSOLUTELY – Control the head, control the person.

    Works with a thousand pound horse too. Hair makes for a
    great handle and control loss in a fight. It is one less thing for
    someone to grab on to in a fight.

    Osterman sported the same do. Being that Osterman was his
    mentor, he would have encouraged Zimmerman to do the
    same by outlining the advantages of a shaved head.

    Even Serino asks George how would Trayvon grab his head and smash it against concrete repeatedly. It was obvious Trayvon had not grabbed him by the ears – no redness, no swelling. I think our George forgot he had no hair.

    His scenario is ridiculous.

    • @grahase:
      GZ is full of it. I have seen several head injuries in my 22 year old career as Nurse, and even one most recent when the patient came down from the Stepdown Unit, after having his head severely bashed on the ground in a fight! He sustained a Sub-dural hematoma in addition to a sprained neck and trauma to his shoulders and back. His head injuries looked nothing like what GZ has displayed. He had cuts and abrasions to the head. GZ miraculously did not sustain any thing like this at. Professor is correct. They need some medical experts from the medical field to testify as to what type of injuries are sustained when one gets one head bashed into the concrete with several photos, ENT’s, Physicians who specialize in Sports Medicine and Neurologists.

      ALERT: On HP, Newbee100 aka GZ Is back under a new Screen Name! It is so obvious because his childish scrawls do not change at all! I never realized how poor that individuals wrting skills are. No wonder he couldn’t manage college. He is not able to form a co-hesive sentence or thought.

      • camanokat says:

        How many socks does that joker have?

      • groans says:

        Intuitively, I think we all thought the same. Broken nose? Phhh!! Looks doubtful, and isn’t typically life-threatening.

        Rather, it’s a subdural hematoma that you’d really be concerned about and watching for after an event such as GZ described (i.e., made up). Let alone the sprained neck and shoulder/back trauma, which most of us wouldn’t have even thought of!

        Thanks for your post. You essentially “proved” the professor’s approach to be a likely successful one (not that that’s a surprise…).

        And pretty clearly, GZ didn’t have sufficient knowledge to concoct a realistic “self-defense” story!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          And that’s because no attack ever happened, he just pulled some disjointed imaginings together and could not even place them proximal to the need to fire the fatal shot. Every act of the claimed attack, if one had taken place, he had already survived. The claim of a fight for his weapon concluded with him in secure possession of it, and control by holding the clothes of his opponent, and a mind free to think about the police arrival pending and the safety of his other hand, before he took aim and fired the shot.

          His victim fell, pulling away from his grip on his clothing and remained motionless, face down on wet grass. That is not behavior you expect of a live or conscious person. Live people do not allow themselves to fall face first into wet grass and lay there motionless.
          He is clearly creating an excuse for himself, for disturbing the evidence.

          What he didn’t realize was that he had left himself without a reason for firing the fatal shot. TM shows nothing but surrender at the point the shot is fired and before then as well.

  39. G-morning…OH that’s a hysterical idea, i can totally see the big strong and mean world champion MMA fighter endearing himself to the jury while holding back fits of laughter at the thought of GZ ridiculous story! I’m gonna go find out who it is..

    @Lonnie, do you remember when the last time you were posting, i was looking back about a week but there are about a thousand comments since then that i wasn’t even here for!!

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Don’t worry Sandy knocked me off line for about 11 days or so as well.

      • ohhhhhhhh, sandyyyy, i’m really sorry for you guys up there!! that was a huge one to hit a place that’s not used to it! and i didn’t know that you were dealing with her! so is your family, friends, pets and property ok? i’ve been there trust me! it ain’t no joke!

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Just a little wind damage to the roof. I’ll get a quote. The water didn’t reach me. We lost our fabulous 6 mile boardwalk. That was a big selling point for the realtors over the last few years. Otherwise all is fine. Not so for many other people in lower laying areas closer to the shoreline.

      • Rachael says:

        Wow. Glad you are okay.

  40. Lonnie Starr says:

    A worthy subject indeed, that was fast professor. 😀

    Here’s what inspired this inspection: [http://tinyurl.com/apo5oc9]

    The Martial Artist takes a look at Zimmerman’s claim of being straddled and attacked.

    It also might be useful if we fan out across the net to see if we might also find useful people to comment on this important matter so critical to GZ’s defense claims, not that he hasn’t already destroyed it’s utility by also admitting that it was not the proximal reason for him firing his weapon. But, be that as it may, we have to subject his claims to good and sufficient scrutiny.

    • gbrbsb says:

      Great link and then there is another on that page to the full article which has lots more information. Thanks!

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        That looks like a blog, in reality its just where I’m storing my evidence collection. I’ve left it open for sharing. You can go there and fish around till your hearts content and you’ll find a little bit of just about everything about this case or a link to where it can be found.
        When I originally set it up, my intention was to have a few other people on as co authors, but google had this weird system for granting permissions that none of us could figure out. Now, however they’ve changed that and made it easier, but the old gang has broken up. So the site stays fragmented and disorderly. Oh well.

    • groans says:

      @Lonnie Starr – That article left a big impression with me, too (assuming that it is what it purports to be). The most significant parts, to me, were these excerpts – especially, the second question:

      “Who Screamed for Help?

      “One of the keys to understanding a street fight is that “multitasking” is not an option for most people. When a karate master takes on, say, three attackers simultaneously, his or her approach is to deal with this as one single attack and not three separate attacks. Screaming for help is a separate event from fighting. One does not fight and scream for help simultaneously. It’s the party that has stopped fighting (or never engaged in a fight) that does the screaming.

      “I would put my money on Trayvon Martin as the screamer when he was pinned to the ground. Why not Zimmerman? Because he had an ace in the hole in this fight, his gun, and he would have been fighting to get to it, and not taking the time to do anything else. It would have been a single minded effort. Even assuming that Zimmerman was being “ground and pounded,” he would know that he had the ultimate weapon in this fight, and that’s what he would have been going for, and not screaming for help.”

      “So What Actually Happened?

      “The only scenario that I can figure out that makes any sense is this. Zimmerman took off after Martin after making a phone call to the police about a “suspicious” character in the neighborhood, even though he was told by the police not to do so. When he caught up with Martin a confrontation (starting with pushing and shoving) ensued, at which point Zimmerman grabbed Martin, who may or may not have punched at Zimmerman. Generally when this happens in most street fights, the parties fall to the ground and roll around, whereby Zimmerman scraped his head on pavement. After rolling to the top position, Zimmerman got to his gun and took one shot at Martin, killing him instantly, just after Martin began screaming for help.”

    • groans says:

      And also the photo of a guy with a black eye from a blow to the face.

  41. colin black says:

    Sorrrry just about to read the article.But have been driveing meself redio rental..A fe days ago someone wrote a post in the guise of gz telling dispatcher iirc where Trayvon wasnt an other places where he wasnt gonna be..Of course it was a piss take ironic an brilliantly done.But I cant remember wich thread it was on In 99 cent sure it was on Freds Blog…Who wrote it mmmm? Xena .Marsha.Jun honestly am sure you know the post i am refering to Chrokee?Did you read it?Anyway Ive been trying to find it back reading but no joy…t y i advance if anyone can find an repost it please…

    • Xena says:

      That sounds like Malisha. It would be on one of threads about Dave’s, LLMPapa’s and Trent’s videos.

      GZ said he left his truck to get an address. The walk-through video provides that GZ would have gotten an address while on the phone with the dispatcher yet told the dispatcher he did not know the address he was parked at.

      For GZ’s version, with his admitted bad memory, he walked to RVC to get an address but did not call the dispatcher back with that address — was returning to his truck to do so. Had he called the dispatcher while standing at the address, he would not have needed to search for his cell phone later.

      GZ never gave his home address when he called the cops. He always gave the clubhouse address. The people he called about were not at the clubhouse and neither was he.

      According to GZ’s call on 2/26/12, when he gave the dispatcher the address for the clubhouse, GZ said thereafter that Trayvon was coming in that direction. Thus, Trayvon was not at the clubhouse when GZ gave the dispatcher the clubhouse address.

      • Arewethereyet? says:

        George was still on the phone with the dispatcher when he supposedly reached the far side of the dog walk (to get an address – he says). Why didn’t he tell the dispatcher the number then? No need to call back…..he was already talking to him.

    • Malisha says:

      I think I remember — GZ says, “here’s the address” and Sean asks, “Is that where he is?” and he answers, “No, he ran, this is the address where he is NOT.”

      I’ll try to find it.

      • leander22 says:

        Malisha, I honestly would like it to be that way. The problem is, it isn’t.

        If it wasn’t tongue in cheek, of course. I find your little fictional phone call below priceless and a real Malisha classic. It’s still quite funny after reading it several times. Catches GZ perfectly.

        He in fact is in the process to deliver his “straight past the clubhouse and make a left” for the first time at that point. Then he reports Trayvon runs, then the dispatcher asks him what house he is parked in front of. There is no number he answers, his car is parked “in front of a cut through”.

        I think this passage sticks in GZ’s mind and leads him to invent the search for an address somewhere in no way connected to wherever Trayvon went.

        I so far assumed the little boy was downstairs watching TV, like most of the witnesses seem to do, but there are contradictory statements about that. Notice Trayvon had no keys … There may well have been some kind of chase. With George not bothering much about looking for an address after he hung up. Notice, at that point the dispatcher had agreed the officers will call him once they arrived. Keep the Feb. 2, chronology in mind. This time he does not need to call them, the officers will call him. He will be able to tell them where “his suspect” moved.

      • leander22 says:

        him to invent the search for an address somewhere in no way connected to wherever Trayvon went.

        or maybe Trayvon was indeed heading for the front door, he had no keys and the boy may well have been upstairs.

    • Malisha says:

      Dear Colin Black,
      I hope this is the comment you were looking for:

      Jun, here’s how it goes.

      George, to NEN:

      Um, Hello, this is George again. I have some addresses for you now.

      Sean: Are these addresses where the guy is?

      George: No, he ran. These assholes always get away. These are addresses where he is NOT.

      Sean: OK, so what is your address George?

      George: To be honest with you, I have a bad memory. Could we just skip to the addresses where the suspect is NOT? Because I remember THEM, now, and I don’t want to go back to my truck because then I’ll forget again.

      Sean: OK, shoot.

      George: Firssssst, one one, one oh, uh, Retreat View Circle, uh, tell them to go left, and…

      Sean: That’s the club house?

      George: Yeah, and he’s not there.

      Sean: OK, where else isn’t he?

      George: He’s… [slap slap, slap slap] shit… one two one one, uh…

      Sean: George? Are you there?

      George: Where?

      Sean: Wherever you are now?

      George: Just tell them to call me, OK?

      Sean: Call you?

      George: Yeah, call me maybe.

      Sean: That’s a song, George.

      George: Uh…well numbers all around, flying by, up and down,
      Some as slow as Christmas coming, Some like the speed of sound, And we all wonder, what they mean, The highs, the lows, the in betweens, Most of them mean absolutely nothing But some of them mean everything…

      Sean: George, do you see the suspicious guy?

      George: Negative. Lost visual on the suspect. Sing a song of sixpence, pocket full of rye, four and twenty blackbirds baked into a pie,…

      Sean: George, do you still want the officers to meet you there?

      George: Rescue me, Come on and rescue me, Come on baby and rescue me, Come on baby and rescue me, ‘Coz I need you by my side, Can’t you see that I’m lonely, Rescue meeeeee…

      If not, let me know and I’ll look some more.

      • Malisha,

        This truly is priceless and I am going to feature it on the main page.

      • leander22 says:

        Frederick a treehouse nut suspects your blog is being taken over by Malisha:

        RT @mikethacker71: I wonder when Leatherman is going to turn the blog over to Malisha the conspiracy nut? She is special. 1 week ago

        And here something that shows to what extend I have to twist my head into knots to understand their strange patriotic universe:

        Those who wish to increase taxes, The professional Race-baiting class, Socialists, Communists, and other like-minded and progressively affiliated members of the electorate …. Target 100%.

        No wonder they seem to love FrontpagMag, “Hating Whitey”? RIP dear David Mills aka Undercover Black Man.

        They also invented a screenshot of Obma’s computer, I guess that is their take on humor.

      • Loop loop says:

        >>>>> I’M NOT WORTHY<<<<<

      • ed nelson says:

        Malisha! you are a talent, somebody out there will come with the tune for your great lyrics!

      • sdunn5 says:

        Malisha You Rock!!!!!!!!

  42. Two sides to a story says:

    Thanks for the in-depth examination of Rule 702.

    While I don’t think GZ’s story of the confrontation with TM is completely truthful, I doubt it’s impossible to keep someone from slamming your head into the ground or concrete by holding your neck stiff.

    I say so from my own personal experience. When I was about 10 years old, a neighbor boy and I had a clash. I don’t recall what it was about or how it began, but it ended up with me flat on my back on a concrete driveway with him straddling me, as described by GZ. The boy grabbed my head and pounded it into the concrete about 6 times before I managed to get him off me.

    I did hold my neck stiff, and this prevented him from lifting it very far from the concrete, but he was still able to bump-bump-bump my skull into the driveway slightly. Because I was about 3 years older and a few inches taller and likely about 10 pounds or more heavier, I was able to push him off me.

    I had thick hair at the time, and never told our respective parents about the confrontation. I’m certain there was no cuts or scraping, but there could have been some slight bruising, although I don’t remember any soreness afterward. However, the spot on my skull that met the concrete was LOWER, thus I suspect that GZ was clobbered with an object – perhaps TM’s cell phone – or that he received the cuts on the back of the skull by falling backwards and landing head-first on something with an edge – curb, edge of sidewalk, sprinklers,lid of meter box, etc. because any skull meeting concrete from a prone position would sustain injuries at a lower point than GZs!

    I suspect that experts provided by the prosecution WILL be able to prove this fact.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      PS – It might have been possible to cause those high cuts by slamming the top portion head into the sidewalk at the very edge, if the edge was indeed a little higher than the ground around the sidewalk.

    • grahase says:

      Grabbed you by the hair, right. George had no hair.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Yes, that and: When the opponent tries to lift your head, he has to use both hands to do it. One on each side of the head, pressing together, with fingers cupped behind. Now as he pulls the head towards himself, a simple turn of the head to one side and bingo, the fingers of one hand are no longer behind your head, so one hand slips away, the other hand is useless, it has nothing to grip. The attacker has to start over, but no matter how many times he does it, he’s only going to get the same results, head turns, hand slips away.

        If he should manage to lift your head it only gets worse for his effort. When he tries to push it down with force, head turns one hand slips away, all he accomplishes if anything is, he smashes your soft face against the concrete, assuming he hasn’t lost his balance when his hand slips away.

        Oh wait, if you wriggle down a bit, his perch gets higher and higher on your body, he loses leverage as well, he has to slide back down. I don’t know how long it would take for him to realize the effort was futile and give up.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Not really. More like placed his hands at either side of my head and held my head. I didn’t feel like I was in a life or death struggle, either, though I didn’t like it very much!

    • Rachael says:

      And you didn’t shoot him, did you?

      • thejbmission says:

        Lonnie Star said:

        Now as he pulls the head towards himself, a simple turn of the head to one side and bingo, the fingers of one hand are no longer behind your head, so one hand slips away, the other hand is useless, it has nothing to grip.

        I agree unless Zim wants to say TM had him by the ears but that’s not likely because;
        1.) No scratches on side of the face or ears
        2.) No sign of Zim’s DNA under TM’s fingernails.

        I’m a girly girl, haven’t had many fights in my life time but I have been in a few neighborhood wrestling matches when I was a 10yr old kid.
        My best move to get someone off of me when they were straddling on top was to use my legs, arch my back up and lift them off and roll over. In Zim’s case, TM being about 40lbs lighter, it shouldn’t have been too hard to do. I can’t imagine Zim not being able to get a lanky 140lb kid off of him. Unless he only a bouncer at Mary Kay parties…then maybe.
        Zim never mentions what he was doing with his hands when TM was supposedly bashing his head. Are we to believe he was just lying their like a sack of potatoes? At that point, Zim could have broke TM’s nose with one punch. IIRC, there were no injuries to TM’s face or arms; just a superficial cut on one of his fingers.
        At one point, Zim says TM was covering his nose and mouth trying to smother him. Again, no injuries to TM’s arms and hands or torn clothing. ??

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          When someone puts their hands on your face it’s uncomfortable, the first reaction is to reach up and grab their hands and pull them away. Instead GZ wants us to believe that a bar bouncer simply laid there and took a life threatening beating, then got up and followed a fleeing TM and shot him 40 feet away! A jury isn’t going to like that story at all.

      • gblock says:

        “Zim never mentions what he was doing with his hands when TM was supposedly bashing his head. Are we to believe he was just lying their like a sack of potatoes? ”

        jbmission, I don’t remember precisely what Zimmy said, but the general claim was that his hands were trapped by the way that TM was straddling him. Then when TM starts feeling for the gun, Zimmy was suddenly able to get his hands free to pull out the gun himself, and have his other hand loose so that he had to be careful not to shoot it when he pulled the trigger.

    • grahase says:

      Zimmermans cuts do not conform with those that would be caused by head-banging on concrete or the sidewalks edge. The photos are proof in the pudding.

      • Are you calling George a pudding head?

        Wait till the nuts in the treehouse read about this.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Professor Leatherman, they will probably fall off of their conservative perch. it’s quite evident that these people have no common sense at all. the truth of what actually took place that night is in his different accounts of that night, as well as in the videos that have been posted on you tube by various people who are really standing up for the truth in this case. only a bunch of morons would support this lump of nothing!

      • Tee says:

        As a child I use to hit the back of my head on my oncrete porch often. crazy as it may seem, i use put liquid soap on our front porch to clean it & always found myself sliding around for fun, then boom! I hit the concrete. This crap hurts trust me & I always wound up with a huge knot on the back of my head. Needless to say I would do the same thing again when it was time to clean the porch the next month, my mom say this is why I’m a lil off right now lol! George head should have been swollen at the very least, he should have abrassions also due to his hair being cut so low.

      • ed nelson says:

        My question came up with today, is: Isn’t it true that both of the players had cell phones on their person.

        Might have to find some kind of way to supena… (haha) them’s that have the GPS profile. Sorry, I’m not too sophistoocaded, so… but, I just wondering if the phones have some kind of weird little trail, that show’s where ever the device goes.

        That might comprise some… “Exculpatory or wtf data.”

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