Zimmerman: The Police Were Inexcusably Incompetent for Failing to Ask Zimmerman to Voluntarily Provide a Blood Sample

Many of you have commented that Zimmerman sounded like he was high during his non-emergency call to SPD prior to the shooting. Many of you also have commented as Rachael did just approximately 30 minutes ago:

“Everyone I have played that call for, and I mean people who do not follow this case, have said that he sounded impaired, even though all I did was play the call without saying anything. They all spotted it. Now it may well be that due to everything that happened, by the time the police got there, he did not seem impaired to them (adrenaline rush?), I will still never forgive them for not having tested him. Yeah, I know, he wasn’t charged so I guess they couldn’t but still.”

Yes, they probably did not have probable cause to get a search warrant to seize blood, but that did not prevent them from asking him to voluntarily provide a blood sample. They could have asked him for a blood sample and, as cooperative as he was attempting to portray himself, I have little doubt that he would have agreed to provide it.

For example, they asked him to voluntarily provide a DNA sample collected with a buccal swab scraped along the inside of his cheek and he readily agreed to it.

This is yet another example of inexcusable police incompetence.

Serino was in charge of the investigation and he, therefore, must bear the responsibility for this failure, even though he remained at the crime scene and ordered Doris Singleton to interview Zimmerman.

She was only a phone call away.

Alternatively, an officer at the scene could have asked for and obtained consent and then transported him to the hospital for the blood draw.

Therefore, to claim they did not have the authority to take the sample is misleading and dishonest.

Worse, it is yet more evidence — in addition to “correcting” witnesses that Zimmerman was the person screaming for help rather than Martin — to support a belief that a decision had been made not to charge Zimmerman with a crime before an investigation had been conducted.

* * * *

Must give credit to Dave for beating me to the punch:

“It’s been pointed out before that the cops couldn’t test him wiithout either a search warrant or Zimmerman’s permission, but it wouldn’t have cost them anything to ask for his consent. He sure wasn’t shy about talking after being Mirandized.”

Dave the student snatched the pea from the palm of my hand.

Good work, son!

208 Responses to Zimmerman: The Police Were Inexcusably Incompetent for Failing to Ask Zimmerman to Voluntarily Provide a Blood Sample

  1. Malisha says:

    I was just going back and reading comments on line from March and April because I’m doing a kind of analysis of how folks reacted to what the media were putting out there, and I came across this pronouncement, made by a powerful lawyer who gives talks all over the country on Constitutional rights:

    “…with this photo [it’s the first George bloody head flick], the charge of second-degree murder appears even more excessive and undermines Special Prosecutor Angela Corey’s claim that she was not affected by the political pressure to charge Zimmerman. I can understand a manslaughter charge, even with the photo, but no reasonable prosecutor would consider the second-degree murder charge as based on this evidence. Corey clearly must have seen this photo and the reports before her charging of Zimmerman.

    Now this guy knew that “this evidence” was, on April 20, 2012 when he announced this opinion of his, NOT EVIDENCE. It was a photograph given by SOMEONE (allegedly not the police) to a news source, ABC. So “this evidence” was not only not evidence, it wasn’t even necessarily George Zimmerman’s head. If it WAS George Zimmerman’s head, it is very bizarre to think that it had anything to do with whether the elements of second degree murder were present or not, because those elements are:|

    1 – killing;
    2 – with malice;
    3 – without premeditation.

    Is there a law that says that if you decide to kill somebody, you have to be allowed to do so UNSCATHED? You have to be enabled to do so without any resistance being offered, without any injury TO YOU resulting from that unauthorized activity? Even an executioner hired by the State to kill a convict pursuant to a death warrant is naturally expected to sustain some injuries while doing so; that’s why they strap the guy down before letting the executioner do his work!

    How come Trayvon Martin could only have been murdered if he managed to not even give his killer a hangnail in the process? Any sign of resistance on his part would make his death justifiable?

    See how people have reacted to this crime? They have lost their minds; they have abandoned their own intellectual capacities (because the writer of those foolish words is a highly intelligent and very well educated, prestigious, respected intellectual who teaches at a top law school). They have chosen to believe ridiculous things so that they can ignore the obvious: We are on the verge of becoming a society that does not protect the human rights of individuals unless they have money, power, or the most efficient PR organizations on earth. We are becoming a madhouse filled with would-be murderers who want “freedom” to do as they wish to anybody they can victimize. And there is no lack of intelligent people pretending they do not see that.

    • Xena says:

      How come Trayvon Martin could only have been murdered if he managed to not even give his killer a hangnail in the process? Any sign of resistance on his part would make his death justifiable?

      Malisha, that’s the problem I have with MOM trying to dig into Trayvon’s past. What it conveys is that a rapist can kill and claim self-defense because he was scratched and bitten. If the defense finds that the victim got into a fight in the 5th grade, and wasn’t a virgin, they use it to justify her death. To avoid the charge of rape, the defendant claims it was consensual, although the victim was 17 yrs old. He defends that by saying she looked older.

      So, rather than it being a man suspecting that the teen was a prostitute who he followed and subsequently killed, it becomes a non-virgin teenager with propensity for violence who attacked the defendant resulting in him using A GUN in self-defense.

  2. Malisha says:

    It is possible that ten years hence, people look at this case as the case that began the federal investigations into how little cliques inside communities began to reinstitute a form of Jim Crowe. Just sayin’. You would HAVE to have police involvement in schemes like that, of course. Just sayin’ ’cause just thinkin’…

  3. Malisha says:

    I think the important story now is this:

    “Facts” like there was a shooting in RTL BEFORE George shot Trayvon Martin (during the year before) and George helped solve crimes in RTL were probably being promulgated by the police. Since they were public information, at any rate, they would not be given to the press by “confidential sources.” I would love to know where these bits of inaccurate information came from or, if they are accurate, where is the documentary proof that they are accurate.


    Because Lee led the SPD at the time they were promulgated. If they were INACCURATE, that’s a big thing. If they were accurate, the information behind them should still be there, available, and under the Florida Sunshine Laws, publicly available.

    Professor says he will contact Frances Robles about the “one other shooting” story. I think that will help a lot, since right now the SPD has really clammed up. I hope they didn’t buy twinkies with my $112.10!

  4. Brown says:

    OOOps disregard my comment about rene, wrong blog

  5. Malisha says:

    You know, it is hard to go back to knowing “nothing” about the case, and trying to see it as we saw it then, and letting ourselves react and respond. I’d say impossible, actually. But if I try to do that, I find myself seeing the shooting in a few ways, as if I were asked to go see a movie but the movie I saw each time, with the same title, was a different movie. This was a result of the SPD having kept information away from public view, and possibly even having put information into public view that was not information, but rather, “information,” or what may, ultimately, be proven to be misinformation.

    First we read nothing about the killing. There is no movie.

    Then we read that a neighborhood watch “captain” shot a kid in a gated community and the kid had skittles and iced tea. Then the movie is that the NW captain is both overzealous and paranoid.

    Then we read that it was a dangerous neighborhood (thanks to the “eight burglaries, nine thefts and a shooting” which we either read that way or this other way: “eight burglaries, nine thefts and one OTHER shooting.” We wonder who got shot in the “OTHER” shooting.

    Then there’s a 911 tape in which we can actually hear the murder take place and we hear the last, terrified scream of the victim, which falls to dead silence.

    Then there’s a video of the killer looking smug and clean and with no marks on his head, walking calmly into the station house.

    Then there’s a huge public event involving hoodies.

    Then there’s a huge Internet event involving crowd-scaring ideas of Black thugs with gold teeth and tattoos.

    Then there are two bozo lawyers who talk about George’s broken nose for a couple of weeks while his father says “absolutely 100%” that the scream we know came from the throat of the murdered child was, instead, George’s scream as he confronted his would-be killer whom he had to overpower and kill at the last moment.

    Then there’s promise of a grand jury investigation.

    Then there’s a special prosecutor appointed who charges Murder-2 and advertises her own Christianity while doing so.

    Then there’s a sensational picture of poor George’s head all bloodied but unbowed. Throngs of skinheads to publicly bonkers and probably print themselves color exemplars of that glistening bloody picture and go home and … ahem … “get off” on it. We hear more about George’s head … ahem … than his hose for a while.

    Then we hear more about his nose for a while.
    Then we hear more about his nose for another while.

    Then O’Mara makes some little comment about head and then speaks mostly nose.

    Then we hear more DeeDee and MMA and less head and more nose.

    Then I begin to wonder about that “one other shooting.”

    Then I try to stop focusing on hoodie, teeth, head, O’Mara, nose, nose, ahem, and try to get the pictures out of my mind about the pictures and the … ahem … and go back to the actual now more filled in description of what happened between 6 pm and 8 pm on 2/26/2012 at RTL and this is the question that comes out of it:

    WTF was all that about? In a neighborhood that had never had any kind of gun violence going on in it, where there did not even seem to be a police report of a simple ASSAULT such as somebody bonking someone else over the head at a barbecue or tripping somebody at the pool or having a drunken brawl at the kallubb house, …


    Some guy went postal because a kid he didn’t recognize walked home from the 7-11?

    The case is still that. It doesn’t matter whether George’s head was bloody, his nose was obliterated completely never to poke into other people’s business again, and his ass got kicked by a black belt. The case is about a guy who went postal, and killed a kid, because he couldn’t manage to keep going to the grocery store while a kid unknown to him (in a neighborhood of 260 families where he couldn’t remember the name of three streets) walked around unmolested.

    This is on George Zimmerman. HE created a national law enforcement and criminal law crisis because some kid he didn’t know walked a mile without his permission. HE chose to kill the kid and lie and call it self-defense because it bothered HIM that much so he decided it should not be allowed to happen.

    The stimulus was: somebody did something you know nothing about that is none of your damn business.

    The response was: kill “the suspect”; the police will let you get away with that.

    I’m betting we will never find out what stimulus led Frances Robles to print: “Eight burglaries, nine thefts and one other shooting.” I’m betting she won’t ever say how she came up with that and I’m betting that the police in Sanford won’t explain it. I’m betting Robles will say it was fact-checked and the Miami Herald will stand behind that and the SPD will go, “duh…”

    And yet a lot rides on that one other shooting.
    The way a culture responds to stimuli occurring within it rides on that one other shooting, whether it was imaginary, deliberately dishonest, just plain mistaken, or some fourth explanation…

    • Jun says:

      You forgot the pictures and twitter of a black kid from Carolina, who threw up middle fingers for a picture, which they allege is Trayvon

      That George is part black

      and he has 3,456 black friends LOL

    • Malisha,

      I’m going to step in here and say something good about Frances Robles.

      She contacted me by email and phone back in May or June to get my take on this case and we talked for about an hour, mostly on background.

      We have had several conversations since.

      We have discussed many aspects of this case that I will not repeat here because they are confidential. Nevertheless, I will say that I have a very favorable opinion about her ethics and integrity.

      I do not believe she has ever intentionally slanted an article to misrepresent Zimmerman in a favorable way when she knew otherwise.

      • Brown says:

        I thought she was talking about Rene Stutzman…..

      • Malisha says:

        This is wonderful to hear!

        Can YOU ask her where she got the “one other shooting” information? I think it is quite possible that Morganstern DID tell her there had been “one other shooting.” Leander called her months ago and she wouldn’t return Leander’s call.

        If we had information on that “other shooting” — its existence, its non-existence, what the SPD said and did to give Robles that impression, etc., that would be extremely valuable!

        In fact, maybe SHE is interested in the story of “the story changes now; there was not in fact ‘one other shooting’ in RTL in the year before Trayvon was killed” — that would be a great story!!!

        Awaiting anxiously —

      • leander22 says:

        Malisha, I was irritated about the “jewelery” story, which Frances Robles broke. My larger impression is she is trying her very best to be fair and balanced. And she is a good journalist. Fair and balanced she has to be. Remember she also broke the Mark Osterman story, and as far as I remember that wasn’t apparent from the documents, but she seemed to have added up the facts which lead her to him.

        Fact is it may have been a rather rash email, but not a phone call. For which I never should have expected an answer. The jewelery story made me mad. And it may have shown. I can easily admit.

        David Morgenstern answered my mail. I had asked him if GZ or RTL’s neighborhood watch generally had ever helped to arrest anyone connected with a burglary. it was my impression that couldn’t have been the case, I wrote. Took quite a while, but ultimately he confirmed my impression. He knew of no such case either. When I then responded asking again, asking, how it could be explained that the Leland Managment claimed on twitter that the NW activities had led to four arrests, I never heard of him again.

        Someone must have informed them. The only person I can think of is the NW leader GZ.

        The twin trees Twitter/newsletter is still online, although activities have stopped.

        Retreat @ Twin Lakes ‏@RTL_News Feb 12, 2012

        Our Neighborhood Watch leads to four arrests in burglaries in the RTL. Great job!

  6. Lonnie Starr says:

    On point, on “all fours” as they say!

  7. Malisha says:

    Alcohol reacts with almost every drug.

    Besides, George’s neurotransmitters are all off. That’s because he thought he had superhero genes but they mutated into bizarro genes and he found himself not quite clearing tall buildings in a single bound. Pa-the-teek.

  8. Jun says:

    This isnt the only case where they took a long time to arrest the killer because of SYG. Look at Daniel Adkins killer – took a few months to arrest him. Raul Rodriguez I am guessing took some time. Montanez took some time.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Yes, the wheels of justice grind slowly. The protests in the TM case were actually premature compared to the timeframe of many other cases. Necessary? Not sure – it looks like GZ would have been charged with manslaughter anyway. But looks as if the M2 charge could very well be accurate.

      • Jun says:

        IMO, any killing needs to be treated as a homicide investigation from the beginning because not all people are honest and may be using the SYG to try and get off

        for example the castle doctrine… someone could purposely lure someone into their home, kill them, then stage the scene so it looks like the dead person broke in…

        I agree that people have a right to defend theirselves but the laws for self defense have gotten out of hand lately

      • Rachael says:

        Wow Jun, you are even more conspiratorial than I am. I think you have been watching too much TV. Unless you just lured some total stranger off the street (for what purpose, just to kill someone?), I really don’t think that would fly for very long.

      • I doubt he would have been charged, but for the intervention because Wolfinger, the State’s Attorney, had declined to charge Zimmerman, despite Serino’s capias request for a manslaughter charge.

      • Jun says:

        Rachel, reality is a lot weirder than TV. You’d be surprised at the lengths people go to commit crimes and conceal them.

  9. colin black says:

    One curssary glance at gz titlal lack of defence woulnds,Trayvons hands no sign of haveing done anything than rub with oil of ullay Certainly not inflicted a onslauaght of mma punches on gz noggin,,,GZ Noggin shows no sign of lacerations splitlips split eyebrows lacerated cheek wounds teeth knoked assunder. Lauriel an Hardy doing there paticake routine inflict mor damage,,,Mot a one chalenged him onit or to keep him taling i understand ,But they must have spoke togrther an said the evidence proves this gz dude is lieing..None of the physical evidence body location wittness reports shell caseing location TM location .Supports one iota of the nonsense he is spouting…Correction multiple versions he is spouting..

  10. Malisha says:

    Ezz-Thetic, I am not sure Serino is dirty. I think it is possible he shows up at the crime scene after 8 pm, gets told by Chief Lee that there will NOT be charges, and then does his interviews after that with the knowledge that he cannot charge George, but still tries to tangle him up in his lies and trip him up and see if he can be made vulnerable. And from then on, Serino is on a tight rope in the department, trying to get the real information about the shooting to the proper authorities but still trying not to actively run afoul of the powers that be within his own department. I think there is a lot to be learned, ultimately, about who was doing what to whom, but the questioning Serino did was skillful and interesting and I’m not ready to call the final decision on his plays yet. Officer Serino, I hope you’re reading this. I have read between a lot of lines in your interviews. Especially, “chuckle…that’s following.”

    • Trina Cosbie says:

      I think Serino did a good job in getting GZ to open & up & feel comfortable answering freely. Serino also did a good job trying to let Zimmy know he needed to explain away things that even Serino knew were going to be a problem in trying to keep his lying arse from a cell. When u have the police ignoring obvious things they should’ve done & asked in an homocide investigation & not an let’s make sure self defense is clear investigation, then none of us would know if Zimmy will need anal ease in his future cell block D endeavours…:)

    • whonoze says:

      Yes. Imagine you’re the lead detective on this case. Bill Lee is your boss, and Norm Wolfinger is your big boss. Many of the people around you (say, the people feeding you the collected ‘facts’) are in tight with the bosses. It would probably take you awhile to figure out that there was something fishy going on, yes?

      (Someone, I think Malisha, has suggested Serino’s ‘aha’ moment probably came when he heard the NEN recording, well after he had left RATL that night.)

      Then, what would YOU do? Would you have had the political skill to get as much evidence against GZ as Serino managed to compile without getting pulled from the case?

      This is not to write a Hollywood script where Serino becomes a hero. There are many mistakes and shortcomings in his report that speak of inexcusable ineptitude, like the timeline both LLMPapa and I have had conniptions about (unlike Papa, I don’t see any potential conspiracy there, as there would be much easier ways to reach that end.).

      So sometimes Serino is channeling the incompetence around him. Sometimes he himself is inept. Sometimes he is passing on the prejudiced assumptions other around him have already woven into the ‘facts’ they have given him. Sometimes he is holding back himself to be seen to be playing the game the bosses want played. And sometimes he’s acting on his suspicions that GZ is a lying-ass murderer, and trying to give Z enough rope to ‘hang himself,’ (including the ‘you’re the good guy’ routine, lying about eyewitnesses and so on.)

      As flawed as Serino may be, where would this case be WITHOUT the info he gathered? It was Serino who led GZ through the ‘re-enactment’, which visualizes GZ’s ridiculous claims and presents them in time-and-space in a way that proves they simply could not have happened. AFAIK it was also Serino who got GZ to record that “Help me” exemplar.

      I would guess that in both cases, he had to give his superiors the same line he gave GZ: that these demonstrations would help explain the self-defense thesis and help take pressure of the SPD. “See, we did our due diligence to verify MR. Zimmerman’s account.” But IMHO, he suspected a different picture would actually be documented.

      Could Serino have done more? Absolutely. If GZ manages to wriggle out of this mess, it could be that Serino’s failings left the opening he uses to escape. But if GZ is convicted, as most of us think he will be if the case goes to trial, many of the key pieces of evidence will have come from the work of Det. Chris Serino, who was not just walking a tightrope, but doing slow against the flow of the larger institution in which he was enmeshed.

      • Brown says:

        Excellent post Whonoze, I think Serino did a kind of a reverse psychological. (Serino) You’re the good guy, right, you wanted to catch the bad guy.

        Serino all in all was indeed walking a tightrope.

      • Rachael says:

        I tend to agree. He had an awful lot of juggling to do, and it does not appear to be easy juggling on a tightrope

      • grahase says:

        Wolfinger and Lee may have told him – find out what happened and lets put it bed.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        If Serino leaked, as some suppose, the tape of GZ walking into SPD after the shooting to the media, then this may have been his attempt to get around his bosses’ management of the case. – ??? Or was this leaked by another party who had concerns about the case?

      • sdunn5 says:

        Hello Whonoze. I posted a response to a comment you made on the new bcclist , but several other bloggers there felt they could post back to me on your behalf.
        I have a question about the additions you and your other bloggers there have done with tchoupi’s chart. I understand you claim the tchoupi that is in sync with you and others (i.e. screaming jay, willis newton, princess, lonnie starr) is the original poster of said chart, however I noticed you have supplied links to all the clubhouse video’s from 2-26-12.
        Problem for me is this when I click on these various cluhouse camera angles it takes me to youtube, then shows me a vid from diwataman then in blue clickable links is gzlegalcase.com. I have trouble with your claims to be a Justice for Trayvon group when linking to a known Conservative Treehouse members vids like diwataman. Any purpose for this? Oh one last thought it does not just say gzlegalcase/ the ending is donate.

      • Malisha says:

        I agree with you, Whonoze. Singleton is also a skillful operator. Serino and Singleton probably did the best they could under the circumstances; they would have HAD to make mistakes because they were operating in a very unnatural environment. I’m looking, ultimately, for real information to come from them. After the case is over, is my best guess.

      • sdunn5 says:

        Once again all I ask from whonoze is why do all the video’s from the clubhouse you have put on tchoupi’s page send you to an uploaded version by diwataman then below the upload link say gzlegalcase.com/donate?

      • Rachael says:

        @sdunn5 Hacked maybe?

  11. katieunc says:

    The drug test that never happened……this one really bothered me. GZ was taking adderall which is a highly addictive stimulant. It would have been nice to know if he had therapeutic levels in his system. On top of Adderall he was also taking Temazepam and Librax. The Temazepam and Librax are both “benzo’s”. Benzo’s are highly addictive as well, these two drugs are in the same family as xanax and valium! These drugs can cause behavioral problems and issues with critical thinking. “Keep your behind in the car judgement”

    GZ was on a lot of drugs….and not a good combo. A good signal of too much Adderall is difficulty sleeping and anxiety. I question this because it appears the Temazepam was given for sleep. I would like to know if his PA prescribed all of these meds. IMO that’s why you let a psych doctor prescribe meds(not a PA). No offense to PA’s out there but a lot of MD’S won’t prescribe meds used for psycholoical problems……..that’s why we have psychiatric specialists…..unfortunately we will never know how much of these drugs GZ had in his system that night.

    • Rachael says:

      of course if he was prescribed medication that he was supposed to be taking and not taking, that could have consequences too.

      • Malisha says:

        It is also possible he was on illegal drugs and that the decision to take DNA and NOT TAKE BLOOD was another agreement somebody (ahem) made with Billy Lee. Around 7:30 pm I’d say.

        • I believe the decision to take a DNA sample was made about 24 hours later, possibly by the guy who administered the voice-stress test. In any event, he’s the guy who took the sample with a buccal swab.

      • Rachael says:


      • gblock says:

        I think that it is very possible that his none too stellar judgment and impulse control were further impaired by his having a couple of beers before he went out.

        Does anyone know whether/how alcohol interacts with GZ’s prescription medication?

      • grahase says:

        The second time GZ was arrested after bond was revoked, there was something I read and maybe someone here can direct me to the document. The police confiscated items from GZs rental vehicle. One of the items was a bag of drugs and another was a gun. The photo showed the inside of the vehicle and the vehicle looked like he was preparing to take off. Anyone – can you direct me.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Professor, do you think the decision to take DNA was a nod in the direction of the capias for manslaughter?

  12. Malisha says:

    You know, I believe that there’s a certain level of “incompetence” at which “incompetence” becomes a euphemism for corruption. Oh yes, I am that cynical. I persist in the belief that cops cannot be so incompetent that they believe an unarmed 17-year-old kid just tried out a bare-handed brutal murder of an armed stranger, when the evidence their eyes shows them at the scene shows that an armed self-important vigilante murdered a carefree kid on a Sunday evening. I don’t think incompetence goes that far. I think they deliberately avoided collecting any evidence that could thwart their plans to become accessories after the fact to the murder of Trayvon Martin. I predict SOMEONE’s head will roll at the end of this one.

    • Xena says:

      Oh yes, I am that cynical. I persist in the belief that cops cannot be so incompetent that they believe an unarmed 17-year-old kid just tried out a bare-handed brutal murder of an armed stranger, when the evidence their eyes shows them at the scene shows that an armed self-important vigilante murdered a carefree kid on a Sunday evening.

      Right on!! And not arrest the person who less than 3 minutes earlier was recorded by the police dept. getting out of his vehicle to follow the unarmed, 17 yr. old.

    • Jun says:

      I think that is why they are all saying “insufficient evidence” because whether true or not, I dont know all the details, but it doesnt get the cops in trouble for obstruction and perversion of justice. Or perhaps they simply wanted to have a strong case for court when they charged George. I dont know.

      • Malisha says:

        If they wanted a strong case for court when they charged George, they would not let him “clean up” in the bathroom by himself before they collected evidence and put him in the interview room.

      • Jun says:

        That was not very bright but it also makes George look like he purposely tampered with evidence, since he already done did that already. Maybe I am looking at the cup half full but I dont feel that all the cops were that non complacent with their conscience but were likely overpowered by the powers that be until the cops, the victims, and the lawyers, went over their heads to stronger powers, ie the mayor and the governor. Mayor right away helped Trayvon once he heard about it. IMO Serino and Singleton figured out that there was something fishy after they were told by Lee and whatnot about what happened. I am sure they came to the realization after interrogating Zimmerman, and looking at him that night, and listening to 911 calls that George does not add up.

    • aussie says:

      At that stage they knew only that he was apparently unarmed, not that he was 17 and innocent. Yes the NEN call shows GZ followed him. YES the NEN call also shows (by design) that it was a suspicious-acting likely criminal or at least a gang member.

      But they did take his word for it way too easily, which is totally wrong and which the SYG laws encourage. There should be no law ever about anything that says you don’t get investigated, with a view to being charged, if you KILL somebody. Investigate first, decide to charge or not afterwards, ideally always let a court decide. This being immune from prosecution on YOUR SAY SO when the other party has NO SAY SO on account of being DEAD, is wrong wrong wrong.

      And in “let the courts decide” I include ALL deaths at the hands of police, too. If for nothing else, to have the evidence out in public.

      • Jun says:

        Florida 776.032

        (2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

      • Malisha says:

        On the NEN call they heard: “late teens” “I don’t know where the kid is” “he ran” and “I don’t know what his thing is.” When they arrived on the scene they learned he was unarmed and he had candy and a soft drink. What more did they need to learn about him to realize he was an innocent kid? Oh, one more thing: a bunch of 911 calls that night, and not ONE of them about a break-in, a home invasion, a theft or any gang activity? By the time Trayvon was in his body bag, they knew he was an innocent kid and that he had been shot dead.

      • Couple things:

        1. Zimmerman’s description of TM and his activities, which he provided to the NEN dispatcher, did not establish a reasonable suspicion to believe that TM had committed, was committing or was about to commit a crime.

        2. An automatic rule that would require the courts to decide all self-defense claims is not a good idea, especially if there were many disinterested third-party witnesses who observed a killing and all of them agreed it was necessary self-defense. Also, consider a parent defending a child being raped by a sexual predator. The point is that there is a wide spectrum of possible fact situations that can arise in any self-defense claim and many of them should never result in an arrest, let alone go to court. There are awful psychological, emotional and financial consequences to being arrested and charged with killing another person. Unnecessarily adding that burden to the burden of killing someone in self-defense is indefensible. Therefore, police and prosecutors must have the power to decide whom to arrest and whether to charge them with a crime. They just have to do a better job.

      • Rachael says:

        I agree. I do believe there are times when self-defense is absolutely justified. However, in this case, where there was an unarmed teen reported to be doing nothing wrong at the time followed by the shooter, with no eye witnesses to the shooting, it is just plain wrong to take the word of the shooter alone with no investigation that it was self-defense.

        • Brown says:

          Off topic.

          Why is it when something like this happens, They go and ask the neighbors what kind of person he was. That frickin kills me. Your neighbors sometimes even family that doesn’t live with you really don’t know YOU. I can wave everyday and talk to my neighbors, everday have coffee with them, maybe even attend a barbecue or two. They would know, I am personable, freindly, talk about various subjects. But do they know I like to clean to music. Sleep in the nude. Like digging into my ear with a bobby pin.

          It totally kills me when they ask the neighbors and friends, what kind of person he was. Nobody really knows anybody.

          That’s like when the ask the neighbors of Serial Killer Jeffrey Dahmer, what kind of person, neighbor he was. Response, oh he was a quiet feller, keep to himself. No trouble at all.

      • Rachael says:

        @Brown – no. Aside from the fact that there would not be enough blood to test, it would be contaminated.

      • grahase says:

        Brown – you clean your ears with a bobby pin! I DO TOO! No one knows it, not even my family. You know what gramma used to say – dont stick anything smaller than your elbow in your ears. So, my trick has always been my secret and I see I am not alone. Thank you for that comment. LOL.

      • Jun says:

        witness 18 saw it from the confrontation onward. she clearly places george as the aggressor.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      ” I persist in the belief that cops cannot be so incompetent that they believe an unarmed 17-year-old kid just tried out a bare-handed brutal murder of an armed stranger.”

      Mebbe in a small city like Sanford where shootings aren’t that common – ? Perhaps because George was a known NW?

      Not that I don’t think that SPD can’t be corrupt. I just try to look at all sides of the equation. The entire case could be a strange convergence of feckless moves on GZ’s part and equally feckless moves on SPD’s part. Stupidity all the way.

      • Malisha says:

        There’s a certain amount of stupidity and then there’s this aggressive “stupidity” that makes people pretend they CANNOT know what is obvious. Once there were protests ANYWHERE and Chief Lee began to have to answer questions, if it were ONLY stupidity, you’d have had a lot less “there was no evidence to contradict the word of the shooter” going on.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        The protests came pretty early on. It’s not unusual for arrests to come as much as 4-6 weeks after a shooting, if you examine other SYG and self-defense cases. But then you have the fact that the protests for TM pushed the investigation further than it had gone before . . . etc., which brings this full circle back to a possible cover-up.

        Or it’s just possible that police investigation was totally inept and some involved really didn’t “get” the timeline and were stuck on the GZs injuries story. Add that to the value of a black kid’s life in some FL counties . . .

        Hopefully we’ll know when the fat lady sings!

  13. grahase says:

    Just a thought everyone. GZ appears to be abusive in his relationships. Maybe he was out that cold and rainy night cooling off after a row with the wife. Scratches caused by nails – the digs in the back of the head caused by nails.

    • Rachael says:


    • rayvenwolf says:

      I thought about that too. It would also explain why Shelie was supposedly at her father’s when she and GZ supposedly go grocery shopping every Sunday.

    • Xena says:

      Personally, I would like to know why his employer required a physician’s note for him to RETURN to work if he had not been off work. IOWs, had GZ been off work the Friday before 2/26/12 and if so, why? Did he call in sick because those injuries occurred Thursday night? Or, did someone at work decide that GZ could not work with those big ass band aids on his head and between his eyes without a physician’s clearance?

      • Malisha says:

        On 2/27/2012 while waiting for the voice-stress guy, George tells the female cop that he needed a clearance to go back to work because someone at work heard about what happened and they wanted him to get a doctor’s clearance before returning. It’s rather weird, eh? Maybe someone at work mentioned that they were already scared of Zimmerman. Osterman’s wife works where he worked, right?

        • Xena says:

          Osterman’s wife works where he worked, right?

          Malisha – YES! GZ recommended Sondra for her job!! It now makes sense. I now remember too that the employer wanted a police report. Sondra went to work mouthing off (which could be a HIPPA violation) and the employer probably said Whoa! This guy killed someone?

          So actually Sondra Osterman is the reason GZ was not able to return to work.

      • Rachael says:

        I could be wrong but I thought he went to work and he told a couple people what happened (he was mugged) and was told he needed to go see a doctor for clearance before returning. Unless I’m missing something, i don’t see anything sinister here. Sounds pretty standard.

      • leander22 says:

        I am with Rachael on this. Over here the the employer would be liable concerning everything that happened to him as a result. I’ve seen people sent back for much less. …

        On the other hand interesting, Wouldn’t he have gone to see his doctor if he didn’t need his consent to return to business as usual?

        Admittedly that piece of the puzzle escaped my attention, which also means, I am probably starting a new rumor 😉

      • sdunn5 says:

        It wasn’t just a medical clearance he wanted, he asked the VST detective if he could get a copy of the Police Report. The detective said “Not going to happen this is a homicide investigation”. Just my opinion but the medical RTW clearance and asking for the police report as if it was a bicycle theft… I think in George’s psychopathic mind he believed he was entitled to all that. My other assumption was he needed them to take back to Osterman to align what George did that night with the police report, and his boo boo’s.

      • grahase says:

        sdunn5 – exactly – There is no reason on Gods green earth that an employer would require a police report. He wanted to see what they had – there is no other reason. The VSA guy has probably heard that one a few times before in his career.

      • sdunn5 says:

        @grahase thank you I feel better knowing there is a like mind of this pesky incident. It also reminds me of GZ’s 9-11/and or NEN calls from the previous year. He seems to stumble when an operator answers with her name “Carlene”. George asks her to repeat her name.. in my opinion he does so because he thinks her name is “black”! Then down plays his reason for calling was to report children running back and forth between cars.

      • Rachael says:

        He said his employer wanted the police report? Wow!

  14. grahase says:

    If GZ were under the influence of drugs or alcohol, would he have had the wits about him to get a clean shot.

    • Brown says:

      HMMM good Point

    • Xena says:

      That is probably why GZ said he didn’t know if he actually shot Trayvon.

    • Trina Cosbie says:

      My daughter takes adderral for adhd. She is 14yrs old & has been on it for 3yrs. In my experience of dealing with an adhd kid before medicine with school was a nightmare. The grades were barely passing, but in the last 3yrs since being on it, her grades are very much improved, she studies & completes classwork & homework w/o redirection or prompting. The adderral is intended to help one stay focused & concentrate. So, if he took his adderral that day, then it is very plausible the impairment from the adderral allowed him to focus on pulling out “the gun” “aiming” & shooting “the suspect” with a clean shot. The problem is the positions he said they were in when making that shot defies the law of forensics & common damn sense.

  15. Dave says:

    Professor Leatherman, while I don’t mean to defend the SPD, I’ve been wondering just how their performance in this case compares. to that of other police departments in homicide cases in similar-sized communities. Sanford Florida is a city of 50-odd thousand people and I don’t suppose that they have all that many shootings to deal with. Any thoughts?

    • I cannot answer your question because I lack sufficient information for comparison purposes, but the things that they did wrong or failed to do, particularly Serino, are just so fundamentally wrong that there is absolutely no credible excuse, regardless of the size of the department.

      • Brown says:

        I am a little confused about something that maybe you can clear up for me. I am well aware of some things Serino did some right and wrong things.

        My question is about the Case Summary report by FL Malphurs.

        Page 137 of 183

        Click to access Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf

        1) Why would Serino state that he knew GZ was WALKING on patrol, if he didn’t get that information from GZ?

        2) Why would Serino state also that GZ CONFRONTED TM and a fight ensued?

        Why are these statements to the FL Investigator Tara Malphurs, so concise and to the point. And turn around and give witnesss the ” ok yeah it was GZ who was screaming not the kid”

        It looks like the case summary was done before Serino’s Capias. Not sure on that, but you check.

        I am not understanding this.

      • Xena says:

        @Brown. The Case Summary you refer to is page 2 of the Medical Examiner’s Case Report, dated 2/26/12 with an addendum dated 2/28/12 with Trayvon’s identity.

        That report provides, “The caller stated that the male should not have been in the area and he observed the male while walking his neighborhood watch. Shortly after the call the resident confronted the male and the two began to physically fight.”

        GZ did not say he was associated with NW in that phone call. At some point, he must told Serino that he was “walking his neighborhood watch.” (Maybe didn’t have the story about going to Target developed yet?)

        This is probably why MOM wanted to depose the ME. The ME apparently reported the info he received from Malphurs as Malphurs received it from Serino.

      • leander22 says:

        Brown, If you are alluding to the second paragraph on that page, “he” does not allude to Serino, but to Zimmerman himself and his NEN call. Given the circumstances Malphurs misinterprets it as a 911 call, maybe Serino did too at that time. If you read the paragraph with that in mind, things will clear up. Zimmerman indeed told the dispatcher/Sean that he was part of the neighborhood watch and his call was at “approximately 1910 hours”. How could he have known at that point in time what Zimmerman only states later that he was on his way to shop?

      • leander22 says:

        Thanks, Xena, I will shut up again. 😉

      • Two sides to a story says:

        It’s my understanding that GZ was fairly well-known at SPD, at least by dispatch, and was referred to as George Watchman.

        • Calling 911 or 311 to report potholes in the street, kids playing in the street, and a man pawing through garbage are ridiculous events to call the cops about. They probably had even better nicknames for him than George Watchman.

          He’s a compulsive liar and a snitch snooping into everybody’s business and that alone makes him a loathsome jerk in my book.

          I do not tolerate whiners, liars and snitches very well.

          I try but they disgust me.

          I vastly prefer the company of gangsters, robbers and killers.


          • Brown says:

            Totally off topic.
            Prof, have you any experience at analyzing where a bullet casing should be relative to where the body postion is?

          • No, other than to note that the casings eject up, back and to the right for R-handed guns and up, back and to the left for L-handed guns.

            Trayvon’s body probably was moved twice complicating any effort to interpret the position of the shooter when the shot was fired, first by Zimmerman who rolled him over, and second by the cops to administer CPR.

            We also do not know if the cut on the bridge of his nose was caused by the ejected casing, the kick by the gun when fired, or something else.

            Too many variables, I think.

          • Brown says:

            Ok thanks.
            One last question then I’m turning in.
            I understand the body was moved for Cpr sake and he was flipped from face down to face up. That doesn’t change where the bullet casing was found. The bullet casing was found by TM head area (see Sketch from Discovery Dump 2 dated 3/19/12) If he shot TM from GZ being underneath him shouldn’t the casing be to the right of where GZ was laying? In other words shouldn’t the shell casing be further away from where Tm body was not closer?
            Or I am reading this wrong?

          • I am saying that I do not know exactly where Zimmerman was when he fired the fatal shot, but I believe he was on top straddling Martin when he fired it and that would have necessarily been within a few feet of Trayvon’s body and the location where police found the casing. Nowhere near where Zimmerman claimed to have been to Singleton and to Serino the next day at the walk-through.

          • Brown says:

            Exactly, I also believe he was either over him or straddling him. For that casing to be in the area where it was located close to TM’s head. By GZ own statements he fired the shot only while TM was on TOP of him. Even though he said he fell by the T that doesn’t matter for this convo. He said he was on his back when he shot him. He has stuck to that no matter what. And it is going to nail him to the walled. Like Gilbreath said, “We have his statements the casing and the body.

            Maybe LLMPapa can do another video to this. Hmmm

          • Brown says:

            I believe when Gilbreath said that statement ” We have Mr. Zimmerman’s statements, the shell casing, and Mr. Martin’s body. He was referring to and this is jmo, by whatever science used or will be used does not coincide with GZ being underneath him when he shot him. I don’t think he was referring to the 40ft away from the T. Even though that is extremely important. I think it is where the casing was found by TM body that gave the State more solid evidence against GZ. His own statements of him shooting from underneath does not gel with where the casing was found. Or I am just looney.

          • I believe you’re right, but I’m reaching my conclusion based on the trajectory of the shot, how close the muzzle of the gun was to Trayvon’s chest, the displacement between the wound and the holes in the clothing, and W18’s description of what she saw.

            There are too many variables for me to comfortably express an opinion regarding the significance of the location of the casing except to say that Trayvon was shot where his body was found, which is contrary to what Zimmerman told Singleton and Serino.

          • Brown says:

            Go it
            I am sane again.

          • No you’re Brown. You’re on first.

            Looney is someone else. She’s on second.

  16. Xena says:

    Remember this Freudian slip that LLMPapa posted back in July?

    • Rachael says:

      Oh yes indeed, I do remember that one too. That is what made me first wonder if she was perhaps with him that night.

      • Tee says:

        You just don’t know with this man, he tells so many lies its hard to keep up, but thanks to the guys here we doing a awesome job of it. within the lies George tells the truth lay open for the world to see. We here see him for who and what he is, a “child murderer”. We see the truth he’s trying to cover with all of his many lies unfortunately for him he’s not to bright and he’s really a bad liar but I guess that’s just was in “Gods plan” him being such a bad liar and all.

      • aussie says:

        He says “like I told you, my wife…..” so it is something he already told the cops about. Something that hasn’t shown up in any reports from them. So it was something in casual conversation, not part of an interview.

        BUT if what he said was that she was going shopping with him, I am SURE they’d have remembered that and incorporated a few questions about “and what what she doing when you left the truck…..”

        So I don’t think she was with him. I hear the comment as more about where she is or who with or in what mood etc which makes him think it’s better to just get on with the shopping and not hang about observing Trayvon at Taaffe’s. An urgency he managed to forget in 371 yards down to the mailboxes.

      • leander22 says:

        ” “like I told you, my wife…..” so it is something he already told the cops about. Something that hasn’t shown up in any reports from them. So it was something in casual conversation, not part of an interview.”

        Not, as far as I remember. I would assume that his written statement just like the initial written statements by the witnesses was the first he did at SPD. And that story started exactly with the same story, his wife was scared of burglars, and he had to do something about it.

        Concerning LLMPapa’s discovery, while interesting. Incurring a bit of rage in the process, but why not?

        “We” also usually go grocery shopping, but on Saturdays, since the shops are closed on Sundays. We do go more often over the week too, but strictly it means either one of us does. Which means the one that goes has to bring whatever the other side wants too. “We” could simply stand for either one of us here.

        Notice my sympathy with GZ is limited to almost being non-existent. Since I have a big dislike for prejudiced people. “A suspect” usually does not wear a button saying: look I am a thief. But “a thief” does also rarely turn into an “MMA style killer” without the slightest motive.

      • grahase says:

        leander – you are making justifications for GZs slips-of-the-tongue and that is fine. You have an interpretation. However, in each of those instances, he pauses and corrects himself. If it were something I said all the time – my wife and I go shopping, To correct myself mid sentence by saying – I go shopping is, IMO, a slip-of-the-tongue. He does it often and stops to correct himself. So, no, I do not agree with you on these ones.

  17. Jun says:

    Piers Morgan put it best IMO and one of the reasons why George will fail his SYG claim

    something along the lines of

    “Why didnt George just leave the kid alone? Trayvon was just walking back from the store with candy and treats. George could have stayed in his car, and drove home. There was no dire situation involving Trayvon until George got out of his car to pursue it. If George simply stayed in his car, he would be at home right now, Trayvon would be alive, and there still would be no issues in the neighborhood”

    Piers makes a great point. It was an unnecessary and unreasonable situation George created and any fear he had is not reasonable since George caused it

    • Xena says:

      Yes Jun. We should also keep in mind that MOM abandoned a SYG defense for a traditional self-defense claim. His abandonment conveys his knowledge that GZ was the aggressor and cause of a confrontation that resulted in Trayvon’s death. MOM’s strategy, as best I can tell, is to defend on the basis that although GZ was the aggressor, he could not retreat because Trayvon pinned him down. However, as we know, that is not what GZ describes of the seconds before he shot Trayvon.

  18. Rachael says:

    Professor, can you repost LLMPapa’s “He yelled out for help” video somewhere prominent again? He posted it so close to where you started a new post, I would hate for anyone to miss it.

  19. grahase says:

    There is a video in the Orlando Sentinal today with Mr. Robert Zimmerman Jr. Professor, is there anything that LE can do to shut this guy up. He says he is representing the family and does not want to talk about the case. Yet, if he isn’t taking about his family being bi-cultural, hence non-racist, he is talking about what happened the night Trayvon was murdered. In my opinion only (IANAL), should he be charged with obstruction of justice, witness tampering, and or tainting the jury pool. He is using the media in the area where jurors and witnesses live. This is why I asked about when a person on a witness list must not speak about the case. If I were a potential witness or juror, I would not be able to avoid the television and radio appearances with consequential newspaper reports. I have never seen anything like this in my life!

    He was NOT there that night. He IS talking about that night. Something SHOULD be done.

    • Jun says:

      I wouldnt worry that much about it. RZ Jr is not affecting anyone’s opinion and jurors have to vote based on what is admissible in court. What RZ Jr. is saying is complete hearsay and is not admissible in court and most people know he is lying. Look at his Piers Morgan video, he has so many dislikes. If he goes to court with that mess, he is going to be proven a liar and he will also be likely charged with obstruction and perjury when he takes the stand. The evidence is there that they are lying. So many defendants have played the same games of pushing their story and they get proven wrong and liars in court.

      But that is my take anyways… lets see what Freddy says

    • Rachael says:

      I couldn’t find anything from today. I found one from 2 weeks ago and I thought he had kind of shut up since then…or had hoped so.

  20. grahase says:

    A little off-topic, but here is a couple of quotes from my hero Michael Moore. We were discussing the Petraeus scandal the other day.

    Quote: In the twilight of the American Empire, sex can bring you down and earn weeks of headlines — but war crimes get you a pass.

    Quote: I would rather live in an alternate universe in which generals get promoted for having sex — and have to resign if they kill people.

    Sorry for the interruption. The scandal is no more than a tempest in a teapot.

  21. colin black says:

    To be daft enough to swallow his bullcrap…………..GZ Lies like a rug….Not a nice fitted carpet rug in your home..No GZ LIES Like a RUG the kind of rugs yous bald men wearing that resemble a dead ferret on there scalp….So blatantly false!

  22. 2dogsonly says:

    They drug tested the victim but neglect to even ask the person in police custody? Totally strange.

  23. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    Just incase some don’t know what Temazepam is. It is in the same class(benzodiazepine) as the more common drug Xanax. We’ve all heard of Xanax from Casey Anthony case…remember Zani’s?

    Dr. Jerome Litt answered:

    What is the main difference between restoril (temazepam) and xanax?


    Temazepam is a Schedule IV Controlled Substance. Didn’t I read in some statute something about committing crimes while under the influence of a controlled substance?

    • Ezz-Thetic says:

      I remember Xanax from Travis The Chimp. You know, the chimp in Connecticut that ripped a woman’s face off.

    • sdunn5 says:

      Temazepam is Restoril a schedule lV controlled substance. More alarming in George’s prescriptions is Adderall an amphetamine and schedule ll controlled substance, meaning it has a high probability of abuse where as Temazepam has a low probability.

      • Rachael says:

        Actually, temazepam has a rather high probability of abuse and should only be used short term because there can be bad side effects of coming off it without doing so gradually. Addiction to benzos isn’t pretty.

        And alcohol always potentiates drugs.

        We don’t know if he was undermedicating, over medicating or just plain self-medicating with something else. That isn’t the point.

        Anyway, AFAIC, his routine medications are not so much a concern as the possibility of them being potentiated by the addition of something else, but we will never know.

      • sdunn5 says:

        If temazepam has such a high rate of abuse they should classify it as a schedule ll not lV controlled substance. In an addictive climate I fail to see how temazepam (benzo or not) would rank only a schedule lV with a low probability of abuse yet adderall schedule ll is known for a high probability. Frankly let’s be real I have taken temazepam to aid in sleeping over the years. I think an amphetamine would be entirely different. I also do not believe GZ was prescribed adderall before 2-13-12.

    • Zimmerman supposedly had been diagnosed with ADHD, or attention deficit hyperactive disorder, that is commonly treated with an amphetamine, such as Adderall, that improves the ability to focus, and a benzo like Temazepam as a sleep-aid to deal with the insomnia that results from taking Adderall.

      I do not believe there are any peer reviewed studies that document a cause-and-effect relationship between ADHD, Adderall, Temazepam and violent assaultive behavior.

      Alcohol, on the other hand . . .

      Zimmerman’s prior history indicates an alcohol problem and assaultive behavior.

      Of course, he may have had a polysubstance fueled event going on, but we won’t ever know unless he admits it because the cops did not do their jobs.

      • grahase says:

        We also do not know about the drugs being prescribed or not. He seemed very concerned in the jailhouse calls about getting one of the drugs.

      • Malisha says:

        The idea of there being a crisis because a kid is walking in the rain — it’s so abnormal as to be a red-flag-raiser. “Suspicious” because YOU don’t know why he’s walking? Why do you have to know why anybody is doing anything? This is either deprived criminal malice, paranoid conduct, alcoholic behavior, drug-induced psychosis, or racist profiling, I mean, take your pick.

      • Jun says:

        George is diabetic and it flares up his IBS and ADHD, hence Trayvon walking with Skittles and Ice Tea caused his flare ups LOL

      • Xena says:

        He seemed very concerned in the jailhouse calls about getting one of the drugs.

        Yes, along with his contact lenses. He told ShelLIE that they wouldn’t let him have his contact lenses. In one of the calls, she stated that eyeglasses were being shipped overnight. Which makes me wonder, what type of contact lenses stay in when having your face beaten and your head bashed against concrete and the person says nothing about them, although alleging there was blood in his eyes?

      • Tee says:

        I maybe wrong but I don’t think he was impaired that night. I think this is where his ADHD was showing its head. He was talking to NEN but focusing on Trayvon , he couldn’t do both at the same time. notice after he loose site of Trayvon his language becomes jumbled, but before he was talking clearly to NEN. George thoughts had become consumed with where Trayvon had run off to that’s why he sounds like that, he can’t do two things at once that makes it clear to me that he’s lying when he says he’s squirming to get his head off of the concert, noticing someone coming outside, seeing Tayvon become aware of his gun, pulling his gun while holding Trayvon’s arm all while yelling help, when he couldn’t even speak to NEN and focus on Tayvon at the same time without becoming distracted. He can’t do two things at one time.

      • grahase says:

        Tee – I totally agree with you. He was distracted and he is not the kinda guy that can walk and chew gum at the same time. I think he was very focused on the — suspect.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        No peer reviewed studies, no, but there are a wealth of rec drug websites out there with threads relating to on or both drugs and the effects of using more than prescribed. I’d have to look but I know one of the drugs he was on if abused can bring on the same effect as cocaine. That or ask some acquaintances who in the past of done the same meds as him.

        • My point is that the mere presence of a prescription drug metabolite in the blood is meaningless absent quantification because there is a difference between a therapeutic and a toxic level of a drug.

          That is true of Adderall, which is an amphetamine. People who take it as prescribed will have a therapeutic level of the metabolite in their blood and they are able to function in a more focused and organized way than they can without the drug. The quality of their lives improves as a result. Of course, too much of a good thing can be a bad thing and that certainly is true of Adderall. That is why there is a difference between a therapeutic and a toxic level of the metabolite in blood.

          The boundaries between therapeutic and toxic levels of prescription drugs have been determined by experimentation and the results have been published in peer reviewed professional journals. These quantification distinctions have been known for at least 10-20 years.

      • Pooh says:

        Xena — “Which makes me wonder, what type of contact lenses stay in when having your face beaten and your head bashed against concrete and the person says nothing about them, although alleging there was blood in his eyes?”

        Ha ha. Yes, beaten near to death and his contacts don’t pop out. Is there any mention anywhere of him wearing contacts that night? Can we be sure of that? Wouldn’t the EMTs have noticed? Surely they checked his pupils.

        • Xena says:

          Ha ha. Yes, beaten near to death and his contacts don’t pop out. Is there any mention anywhere of him wearing contacts that night? Can we be sure of that? Wouldn’t the EMTs have noticed? Surely they checked his pupils.

          No mention in any of the discovery docs — only in GZ’s jailhouse phone call to ShelLIE.

      • leander22 says:

        Grahase, we do seem to know what drugs he was prescribed at the time, and they seem exactly the ones Frederick mentions above. Remember: my Adderal? I don’t remember the precise complete exchange surrounding the topic in the prison exchanges with Shelli, but remember that statement by George well.

        I looked quite a bit into these drugs, since I knew a multitude of people that misused legal drugs in my life.

        Now notice, please I do not want to suggest he in fact did, but strictly Adderall seems to be drug comparable to marijuana considering some effects. The core difference being one is legal, while the other is not.

        I found this link interesting.

      • leander22 says:

        Which makes me wonder, what type of contact lenses stay in when having your face beaten and your head bashed against concrete and the person says nothing about them, although alleging there was blood in his eyes?

        Xena, I wear contact lenses since I am 17. There is a core difference between hard and soft lenses. The soft adhere firmly to your eyes. It is much more difficult too loose them.

        The hard lenses are much easier to use, less troubles with the necessary cleaning of the soft ones, since these soak in all your eye juices. While even the air-permeable hard ones do not, to the same extend.

        When I got my lenses, the optician told me, I had a fair chance to wear the hard ones easily, since I am brown eyed. It sounded odd at the time, but fact is both of my sisters have green eyes and they have much more trouble wearing them, also never could use the hard ones, although they tried.

        There are several factors concerning the loss of the hard ones. It can be even a swift eye movement, if you are not especially paranoid about your eyes, you may even sometimes pass them with your hand and does push one out. My brother couldn’t even stand watching me taking them out or putting them in. Obviously you loose some of these reflexes if you put in or take out lenses twice a day. But strictly in the scenario you do not necessarily need to loose them, or one of them if you do not make a highly swift eye movement or touch your eye or somebody else does.

      • Arewethereyet? says:

        Has it been reported if George was near sighted or far sighted? If he wasn’t wearing his contacts that night I wonder if he would have had any difficulty reading the house number across the street which he states was his goal and reason for walking in the same direction as Trayvon. The blood in his eyes, if he was wearing contacts that night, must have required him to remove his contacts at an early point – one would think anyway. I didn’t know George was a diabetic? And I didn’t realize a crime victim would receive free medical treatment. George made it sound like it would have cost him $5,000 when being interviewed by Singleton, IIRC.

  24. ChrisNY~Laurie says:

    I’m new here, so first I’d like to say hello. Maybe that is the real reason he didn’t want to go the ER that night. I believe he said he didn’t go because his insurance sucked and it would be too expensive, but add this to his list of lies, because in his interview with Singleton he tells her, ” EMT says I broke my nose”. She asks, ” Do you need to go to the hospital?” and he says, ” ‘They’ said I didn’t”. She says, “who?” and he replies, “The EMT’s”
    I believe that the hospital would have taken his blood if he had gone there that night. I have no idea if they would’ve found anything other than his current medications, but maybe he took one of his Temazepams earlier than bedtime…they are extremely addictive ya know.

    • grahase says:

      Hello. Unbelievable failure on the part of LE, isn’t it. One would think killing someone would be probable cause for drug or alcohol testing. Nope. It appears they weren’t interested.

    • Xena says:

      Maybe that is the real reason he didn’t want to go the ER that night.

      Yep!!! Once he signed for treatment, he would have needed to cooperate in giving blood and urine. Also, medical professionals working under hospital conditions might have noticed that the scratches on his face had already scalped. Even under dark and cloudy conditions, an EMT identified the cut on GZ’s head was caused by a thrown object.

    • CYNTHIA66 says:

      It is starting to sound that George did not want to go to the hospital for good reason . Not to draw blood.

    • Dave says:

      One would think that, working for an insurance company, Zimmerman would at least have halfway decent medical insurance.

      • truthforlisa says:

        One would think so. Either he is a cheapskate, or a liar. Wait…already a proven liar, but he could be both LOL

        • Xena says:

          Counties have victim funds to cover the costs of medical care to victims of crime. When patients have insurance, there are insurance subrogation firms that deal with who is responsible for the bill. Victims can also apply to the fund to cover co-pays and deductibles.

          If GZ truly thought of himself as a victim, he would have gone to the ER and applied with the victim’s fund for any out-of-pocket expenses.

          Sybrina Fulton applied and was approved by the victim’s fund for funeral and some other costs.

          The SPD and EMTs asked GZ if he needed to go to the hospital. They didn’t ask whether he had insurance because that is not a priority in receiving treatment. GZ wanted to be a cop. He hung out with Osterman, and his dad is a retired magistrate. If GZ didn’t know this, one of them should.

      • Malisha says:

        I’m sorry. When you have just been almost killed, and in fact you have just killed somebody else, it’s not time for you to save two hundred dollars by refusing medical care. Sorry, not a viable argument. Not an argument I would buy, if I were investigating something. If you have enough judgment to carry a loaded gun, you make a decision better than that one.

        • Brown says:

          Totally agree on comment.
          But you have to remember who we are dealing with, a little man with a hero complex, who is cheap, who has bills up the ying yang. I can see his little mind working twofold on that one. If I go that is another bill I have to pay. Two, if I go they might find medically that I am not that bad, no matter how much I complain.

      • Jun says:

        I am not buying that either. The only reason to refuse medical service is when it is not needed. There are really cheap insurance rates, especially with certain companies and Obamacare. If anyone was truly hurt, their last thought is the bill. Health > costs any day of the week. Besides…

        I think it is safe to conclude he had no injuries to his face at all, except for twig scratches from a bush or tree branch

        and the back of his head?

        Two tiny scratches bleeding

      • Malisha says:

        There is another issue to consider with respect to the medical issue on 2/26/2012. If I were any cop at all, and I responded to a scene where someone had been hurt, and I was taking someone — ANYONE — into the station in cuffs, in a police car, and they were already injured and bleeding, I would insist that they had to go to the hospital FIRST and I would accompany them in the ambulance or follow close behind it. WHY? Because let’s say I take them into the station in cuffs and they collapse in the garage of the station AND DIE in my “care” before I have even questioned them. I need to prove I did not inflict those injuries, don’t I? I have to prove I didn’t commit police brutality to someone in handcuffs, don’t I? If I don’t take them to the hospital E.R. first before taking them downtown for questioning, I’m in big big trouble, potentially.

        I DO NOT ASK THEM IF THEY WANT TO GO. I need to document their exact medical condition before I question them. If they confess to a crime, I need to be able to prove that I did not force the confession. And if they die, I need to be able to prove that I did not kill them.

        Don’t tell ME to believe that the cops did not have an agreement with George before he even sat in the back of the patrol car. I’m not going for it. Nobody who knew anything about anything would go for that ridiculous idea.

        • jm says:

          Malisha says: “If I don’t take them to the hospital E.R. first before taking them downtown for questioning, I’m in big big trouble, potentially. I DO NOT ASK THEM IF THEY WANT TO GO. I need to document their exact medical condition before I question them.”

          I was thinking along the same lines. Suppose GZ died of a massive hemorrhage from head injuries he alleges he received after his head was slammed into the cement multiple times. Wouldn’t the police be liable for not insisting he be seen by a physician and tested? Based on his claims that GZ was receiving life-threatening injuries to justify killing another person, why didn’t the police have professionals (not EMT) look at these injuries in a hospital setting? Another thing I wondered about is why he didn’t have a blood draw for disease such as AIDS since he was being handled by police who were not wearing gloves or protection, at least from the video of GZ arriving at the police station.

          The only thing I can think of is the police didn’t believe GZ’s story from the beginning and EMT personnel cleared GZ of any serious injuries that would be considered life-threatening.

        • Xena says:

          Don’t tell ME to believe that the cops did not have an agreement with George before he even sat in the back of the patrol car. I’m not going for it. Nobody who knew anything about anything would go for that ridiculous idea.

          I agree, but for a different reason. Blood. Blood carries all types of contagious diseases,some in which there is no cure. To put a person who is bleeding in the back of a patrol car, is to subject subsequent “passengers” to potential harm. Sit him on the curb.

          Had the EMTs not STOPPED the bleeding, they should not have placed him back in the patrol car. Had they suspected that he would start bleeding again, they should have transported him to a hospital.

      • Jun says:

        I never understood the non glove thing especially with Hep and AIDS.

  25. I first discovered this case when I read the transcript of the NEM call on HP (I’m not able to download audio or video….a dinosaur computer w/dial-up service). Alarms seemed to go off as I was reading the transcript. Zimmerman seemed extremely paranoid as he described Martin. Was this due to his own behavior/psychological problems that may have been intensified by drugs, meds, or alcohol use? We’ll never know.

  26. Jun says:

    I think Chief Lee had something do with the mess because to my understanding, they had probable cause on George for at least manslaughter (he did kill a kid) and they would be reasonable to at least hold the suspect. Since they could hold him, they should have drug tested him then and there.

    • Rachael says:

      But they didn’t hold him. They didn’t charge him. Yes, he was brought in for questioning, but he was not held. He was not held on probable cause of manslaughter. He was not held on anything. He was questioned and released.

    • leander22 says:

      Jun, I am of the opinion, it’s moot to meditate about what could have or should have been done. Fact is, that George Zimmerman’s willing surrender to questioning without the help of a lawyer, was probably his number one attempt to manipulate them. Had I been in the prosecutions shoes, I am not even sure if it wouldn’t have worked on me too somehow. Obviously Lee had something to do with events. But how much knowledge do we really have of the chain of command and to what extend whoever had a chance to interfere? All we have is Serino’s statement he was pressured by some black colleagues. No, doubt not a good view on his character. No official words about Lee’s or anyone else’s pressure. Simply a piece of the larger puzzle.

      Beyond that the best statement above is that maybe there maybe should be a law that after a fight the body of anyone claiming self-defense is considered core evidence, and it should not depend on his will to see medical experts but should be done regularly,

      If such a law exist, we wouldn’t be struggling here with evil Serino now. Besides, what do the people that judge him so easily know about the legal procedures by which he is bound. Maybe he would have needed someone’s consent? Besides he was kept away by events surrounding the crime scene.

      Who took Zimmerman to the SPD and allowed him to clean himself up before the photos were taken? To what extend he had to rely on others doing their job? What would legal job regulations have ordered them to do? I was looking for the police law in Florida, can’t find it. Maybe I miss the precise term, it would be called that over here in Germany.

      Last but not least: I wonder if anyone of the Serino critics above – especially this one -:

      Ezz-Thetic says:
      November 14, 2012 at 12:20 am

      Serino is a dirty cop. He basically coached Zimmerman.

      wouldn’t have been manipulated by GZ’s willing surrender to questioning without the help of a lawyer? Given there wasn’t a witness with the name Trayvon Martin anymore?

      Besides, Ezz-Thetic, I didn’t notice you here before. Interesting name.

      • Malisha says:

        When and to whom did Serino say he was influenced by Black colleagues? Did I get that wrong?

        • I believe he complained about criticism within the department from Black police officers and a Caucasian female officer married to a Black male, who complained about the failure to arrest Zimmerman for murder or manslaughter. He was unhappy about that.

      • Malisha says:

        Did Serino say he had the complaints from Black officers and the female officer married to a Black man before or after he issued the capias for manslaughter?

  27. Two sides to a story says:

    Is it possible to connect automatic drug and alcohol testing laws to SYG / self-defense cases, or would that always have to be done either voluntarily or with a subpoena?

    • Voluntarily or pursuant to a search warrant, unless consent can be implied, as is the case with operators of motor vehicles whose privilege to drive can be revoked pursuant to an implied consent statute, if they do not consent to a blood draw requested by a police officer who has probable cause to believe they are impaired by alcohol and/or drugs.

      • Jun says:

        How about the blood they said they wiped off George? Would that be legal to use for drug tests?

      • Dave says:

        Well,GZ was. by his own admission, operating a motor vehicle just minutes before killing Trayvon. Combine that with his very odd communication with the NEN dispatcher and perhaps the cops could plausibly argue that they had probable cause for a blood alcohol test.

      • Dave says:

        For that matter, they could have done a typical roadside sobriety test (walk a straight line, recite the alphabet, how many fingers? etc.)

      • Prof. Leatherman, Someone at the HP site made a comment that since the cops didn’t test George for drugs or alcohol or meds, that he now cannot use the excuse that he was “impared” as part of his defense. Can it be that the incompetence of the police could actually turn out to be a “good” thing?…lol

        • That comment is not correct in the sense that he is not technically barred from claiming diminished capacity (e.g., to defend against the depraved-mind element of murder 2), but the evidence to support a diminished-capacity defense does not exist.

          That means that the jury would only have his word for it.

          And don’t forget:

          Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    • jo says:

      it is really stupid that just because they haven’t arrested him they can’t breath test him. It should be part of the investigation. They are trying to find out if it was SYG and everything should be taken into account. For instance, if he was pissed he should not have even been in his car and the incident would never have happened, you can’t be somewhere illegally and then start harassing people and then shoot them and it be SYG surely. And if he was impaired at the time of the shooting then his statements about what happened are probably impaired too. What he was on should be part of the investigation or how can they determine if he is to be released. If he was a drunken paranoid fool that shouldn’t have been on the road and probably behaved aggressively toward the dead person it could determine if it really was self defence.

      • Brown says:

        I agree that they should of taken a urine sample and or a Breath test. But the silver lining to all this is we got his DNA, with no problema. Considering how damning DNA can be and be used against him, I will take that buccal saw over urine and breath any day.

  28. Jun says:

    Wouldnt the buccal swab contain drug use information? I am under the impression they were taken then and there? The drug would stay in the system for however long and would be in his dna

    • No, a buccal swab is basically a sterilized Q-tip that is rubbed in the mouth against the inside of the cheek dislodging and collecting cheek or buccal cells.

      The DNA inside the nucleus of each cell is typed using the PCR process.

      A different test procedure is used to extract drug metabolites from blood using a liquid-liquid extraction process. The extracted drug metabolites are identified and quantified using gas or liquid chromatography and mass spectrometry (GCMS or LCMS).

      The drug would not be in the DNA.

      Perhaps you may be confused with detecting drug metabolites in human hair. That is not a DNA test and it is not specific as to a date or time.

      Or perhaps testing human mitochondrial DNA (DNA in the mitochondria, which are outside the nucleus). Mitochondrial DNA is not as likely to degrade as rapidly as nuclear DNA, so it may be possible to obtain a mitochondrial DNA profile but not a nuclear DNA profile.

      • Jun says:

        Could there be a possibility, since the drug was taken orally, that there be trace amounts on the buccal swabs?

        • Good question. I doubt it, but I do not know.

          They scrape the lining of the cheek inside the mouth with a buccal swab. They do not scrape the tongue, which would be more likely to retain residue. Also would probably depend on the length of time that had passed since ingestion.

          Scraping the the cheek lining or surface of the tongue would not be a useful way to detect the presence of a drug in the body because the relevant legal question is whether the person was physically or mentally affected by a drug and/or alcohol. That analysis requires a quantification of the amount present in the blood. For example, prescription drugs like Adderall and the benzodiazepines have therapeutic and toxic levels. There is no impairment at a therapeutic level.

          Similarly, metabolites for THC, the psychoactive chemical in marijuana, remain in the blood for long periods of time, in some cases up to 6 months after ingestion and long after the person would be affected by the drug. That is the case with Trayvon Martin, for example.

          In other words, the mere presence of a detectable amount of a drug metabolite in blood is meaningless without quantification.

      • Jun says:

        I guess it wouldnt hurt to test it for drug traces.

    • colin black says:

      Jun they would need blood to test for drugs present in his system on the night ..Long term tests drug use gan be tested in traces of drug residue chemistry locked into the hair.An hair is banded groth like a tree rings so time is easy to traceback days weeks an months trs if hair long enough.The real reaason B Spears shavied her head bald was to nullify a request from her soon to be ex demanding blood hair an urine tests to prove habituall drug abuse.Plus Jun they would have to had willing to treat this as a normal suspisious incident possable malfeacance possable fellonious intent.G Z Starts out saying he shot him one time point blank in the chest with DUMB DUMB Bullets..A case of Dumb useing Dumb Dumb Bullets An then proceeds to give dark stormy nigh melodrama versions each one getting dumb an dumber.Or at least expecting us the listeners of his verbage

      • grahase says:

        Ah — maybe this is why GZ shaved his head. Cops do it for good reason. Druggies don’t. Either he is a druggie or one who is looking for a fight — or both.

  29. Daizy says:

    I found it odd that Serino (in one of the interviews) kept telling GZ that he was the “good guy.” And kept saying “they’re going to want to know …….” basically just wanting information to appease the masses rather than to get to the bottom of why T.M was murdered. Serino kept explaining himself to GZ as if he was upset that he had to interrogate him and kept reminding GZ that he was “only doing his job.”

    • Brown says:

      You know cops have to do that, gain your trust sort of speak so you can talk, then EVERYTHING you say will be used against you in a LLMPapa video.

    • Jun says:

      Serino ended up wanting to charge George with manslaughter. I will give Serino this much, he gained George’s trust to the point Omara stated that George felt betrayed he was charged because he was under the impression he was not being investigated or indicted LOL

      • Tee says:

        I think Serino talk to much. He spoke when he shouldn’t have and didn’t speak when he should have. George would have told on himself had Serino shut his mouth and listened because he had already start to dig his own grave from the first opening of his mouth. If Serino had asked for a blood test or better yet suggested to George that him going to the hospital that night would help clear him of any wrong doing maybe George would have consented being that Serio played the good guy and George seemed so accommodating when this all broke, he was sure of himself then that was the time to do it. We would have a full medical work up on George right now as evidence along with a nice big Ct scan and doctors notes.

      • Jun says:

        He coulda done better for sure

      • Ezz-Thetic says:

        Serino is a dirty cop. He basically coached Zimmerman.

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