Zimmerman: To Exhume or Not to Exhume, That is the Question

GBRBSB asked an interesting question that occurred to me awhile ago, but I did not follow-up on it. The question is how would someone go about obtaining an order to exhume Trayvon Martin’s body to determine if there is any evidence that he suffered a peri-mortem injury (i.e., before death) that would be consistent with him having sustained a soft tissue injury from being placed in a painful hold by George Zimmerman before Zimmerman shot him.

Many years have passed since I looked at this issue, so I decided to to follow-up and take a look at Florida law.

First, here is my answer off the top of my head:

“I did not see any indication in the autopsy report that the Assistant Medical Examiner discovered or even checked for peri-mortem injuries of the sort you describe. I also don’t know if they could be detected anymore, if the body were exhumed to check.

The party seeking an order to exhume the body for further testing would bear a heavy burden of persuasion to establish a necessity, including a reason to believe that something important to the outcome of the case would likely be found, to justify granting the order.

I suspect that is unlikely, given the amount of time that has passed and the other evidence in the case.”

My answer was not far off.

First, the cause of death must be the primary issue in the case. Buenoano v. State, 527 So.2d 194 (Fla 1988); Coppolino v. State, 223 So.2d 68 (Fla 2nd DCA 1969). This prong of the test probably is satisfied because, although we know that the gunshot was the cause of death, we are attempting to find out if the shot was fired in self-defense.

Second, the results of the autopsy must be relevant to a material issue in the case, no matter the outcome. Villela v. State, 833 So.2d 192 (Fla 5th DCA 2002) (exhumation to determine if two bodies were in the casket); Albritton v. State, 769 So.2d 458 (Fla 2nd DCA 2000) (exhumation to determine if a hand was missing); Nichols v. State, 60 So.2d 181 (FL 1912) (exhumation of a child’s body to establish fractures); Lambright v. State, 16 So.2d 582 (FL 1894) (exhumation of body to extract a bullet). In other words, the result would determine whether the shot was fired in self-defense.

I do not believe this prong can be satisfied because we do not know if the evidence existed or if it did, whether it likely still exists. Zimmerman may have had Trayvon in a painful hold without causing a detectable injury and, assuming he did, the soft tissue may have decomposed by now.

Therefore, we would need to consult with a forensic anthropologist and/or a forensic pathologist to see what they think.

It would also help if Trayvon’s parents supported the request.

Fortunately, I do not think exhuming the body to look for the injury that may or may not be there is necessary to convict George Zimmerman.

Also, if the body were exhumed and no evidence of injury were found, Zimmerman would have another argument to make on his behalf.

This would force the prosecution to counter with the argument that evidence of absence is not absence of evidence.

When searching for yet another nail to secure the lid on the opponent’s coffin, one must avoid taking unnecessary risks that might weaken one’s situation.

Thanks for giving me the idea to check out this issue.

Don’t forget to vote tomorrow.

124 Responses to Zimmerman: To Exhume or Not to Exhume, That is the Question

  1. Malisha says:

    Since the KILLING with the BULLET was murder, I wouldn’t think any additional injuries to the deceased would add much to this picture. No matter how biased or incompetent any ME might have been, he got the cause of death correct. The cause of pre-death pain is nowhere near as important and no charges rest upon proving it. Had George displayed his ill-will on the NEN tape and then proceeded to walk up to Trayvon and shoot him through the heart without any speeches or alleged cries from either party, it would seem to me to be the same crime. And as to whether George’s lame story about self-defense can fly, it cannot, regardless of how many bruises there are on Trayvon Martin, because there are not the requisite injuries on George and he doesn’t have to be exhumed to prove it.

    • Jun says:

      My theory is, and I believe I am correct, the combination of the kid being out of breath running away from the crazy defendant as well as trying to fight him off and scream for his life, being shot by the defendant, and being asphyxiated by the defendant, also led to the death because his heart and lungs were running in overtime with a bullet hole in it, bleeding, and caused the global brain edema.

  2. boar_d_laze says:

    If, as a prosecutor, you think a post-mortem exam going beyond the original autopsy might help nail the killer, the easiest and best way to get an exhumation is not to go through the courts waving a flag of righteousness but to get the family to request it. The body belongs to the family, so families always win.

    If the family can afford it, it’s sometimes not a bad idea to ask if they might consider hiring an independent pathologist.

    However… As a prosecutor you want to go very carefully if you run the risk of hurting the State pathologist’s credibility. Her (or his) testimony is always an important part of a homicide. Challenging the thoroughness of the original autopsy certainly falls in that category.

    • You said,

      “However… As a prosecutor you want to go very carefully if you run the risk of hurting the State pathologist’s credibility. Her (or his) testimony is always an important part of a homicide. Challenging the thoroughness of the original autopsy certainly falls in that category.”

      Good point I did not consider.

      Thanks, BDL.

    • Brown says:

      Interesting post. Agree on your points. I know that the TM family has hired their own private investigators. IMO, if it was my son I would double and triple check everything that the investigators, doctors, LE, has done and especially the autospy. Even if it meant to dig up my child to know I have done everything in my power to know everything was done correctly and independently of their findings. In other words, a person(s) who has nothing to gain or lose from investigating just the facts, wherever that may lead.

      • rachael says:

        So you think Trayvon died of something other than a bullet through the heart?

        • Brown says:

          @Rachael
          It has been proven time and time again that LE did not do their job to the best of their abilities, albeit not enough training or just so used to disregarding a or many young black man life or lives that he had to be drug tested and fingerprinted while the shooter, got no background check was declared squeaky clean, and got to go home that evening. While the medical examiner office is independent of said police department they do rely on information provided by the lead detective. How are we to know that serino or Wolfinger or anybody didn’t not tell that examiner don’t do this by the book, just give him a once over. wink wink.

        • Brown says:

          just another thing that came to mind:
          ME report :
          Enroute to scene: time 21:40 arrive at scene 22:00
          depart scene time 22:10 arrive at MEO(Medical examiner Office) 23:40

          According to google maps the distance from
          1360 Indian lake Rd Daytona Beach fl
          to 1111 RVC is about 30 to 45 in traffic.
          It was a Sunday evening most people are in for the night light traffic at that time so why did it take only ten minutes to be at the scene but took 1 and 30 min to get back. Did he stop at freackin Mcdonalds?

          WTF

      • Jun says:

        I dont think the ME did a once over. The autopsy actually destroys George Zimmerman.

        • Brown says:

          I think the ME report is outstanding also. But I still would want a second one done. That’ just me.
          : ^ )

          I look it this way if it confirms everything from the first autsopy Kudos, if something else is found go for Murder One

  3. Malisha says:

    Oh, regarding some of the questions upthread:

    Jews do not do or allow autopsies. If, however, an autopsy is needed by law, it is acceptable. I’m sure a Rabbi would make some kind of prayer before it was done but I’ve never had that happen among the family and friends so I can’t be sure how it goes. Also, I’m a “secular Jew” who is not terribly well versed in the religion, but I have discussed this at times with more religious Jews.

    Robert Zimmerman, by the way, is not a Jew. The name “Zimmerman” is a German name that was taken by some of the Jews during their European Diaspora, but it is not exclusively a Jewish name. Furthermore, to be a Jew, your MOTHER (not father) must be a Jew, and Gladys Zimmerman is not a Jew. And I don’t think that George or O’Mara is likely to come up with a new photograph showing an old great-great-grandfather in a fringed Hebrew prayer shawl and phylacteries any time soon. 😈

    I know plenty of Christians who were horribly offended by George’s “God’s Plan” comment on Hannity. Some of them were offended not so much because it was sacreligious and arrogant, but because it was insanely stupid. If it was God’s Plan for George to get out of his car to chase down some kind who wasn’t doing anything wrong TO HIS DEATH, how would it not also be God’s Plan for the Reverend Al Sharpton to gather a million folks to get out of THEIR cars and chase down George Zimmerman to the inside of a Florida Prison?

  4. leander22 says:

    Off topic:

    Can anyone tell me what would be the best live feed of the US election to watch?

    It’s obviously covered over here too for several years now on both the main public and one private channel.

    But while I don’t expect any of my co-Germans parading as Romney supporter in a jacket made of a US flag, repeating we are all Americans now over and over again in support of Bush as happened as happened in 2004, this time I really would like to watch it on a US channel.

    Any suggestion, any link What are you going to watch and is there a live feed?

  5. Malisha says:

    Folks, the SPD tells me that it cannot be a credit card, must be a check or money order. I don’t want to send a check down there so I’m sending a money order. It is not a problem. Soon we should have something to ponder, concerning all these questions:

    Was RTL really the scene of a shooting shortly before 2/26/2012?
    If so, was that shooting related to George Zimmerman?
    Did George Zimmerman take part in any real crime-fighting?
    What happened at the HOA meetings involving the police?
    Who made police complaints about George before he killed Trayvon?
    When were those complaints made?
    What was done about those complaints?
    What did Officer Tim Smith have to do with any of this?
    What did Police Chief Billy Lee have to do with any of this?

    • Brown says:

      Oh Malisha this is great news and great questions. Hopefully someone will not find a black sharpie. : ^ ))
      If still needed I can send a money order to Florida to help with the cost.

      : ^ )

    • rachael says:

      Malisha, did you see LLMPapa’s video at the end of yesterday’s entry with regard to an officer Mead?

    • leander22 says:

      You are great Malisha, but really I do not need to tell you that again.

      I am still puzzled why they only accept that type of transfer. How exactly was it from Florida state, or you call us and give us your credit card details? No more money orders over here as far as I can tell. That is uncovered and was always highly risky anyway.

      staying tuned, very, very curious.

      I somehow doubt the shooting will be related to Zimmerman. If so, I would have expected the state to add it to the discovery. If it is different I’ll shift more strongly towards the SPD conspiracy.

      Although maybe there was a stray pit bull again? Which reminds me that the article trying to polish up Zimmerman’s image made things worse for me. So the gun was bought for a stray dog? Good to know!

      But I also never forget this statement by Olivia Bertalan:

      “Our next-door neighbor actually said if someone came into his yard he would shoot him.”

      One of her next door neighbors was GZ. Who is she alluding to? She is at the end of the block?

      • leander22 says:

        I missed something here:
        No more money orders over here as far as I can tell. Or simply sending money by mail. That is uncovered and was always highly risky anyway.

  6. I delivered a persuasive speech at a Toastmasters meeting yesterday to a large group of the one percent. Its purpose was to convince them that GZ did not act in self defense when he took Trayvon’s life. I wrote out a beautiful speech and ended up abandoning my pretty, eloquent verbiage and going with an impromptu, emotional delivery. My evaluator was obviously a GZ sympathizer but congratulated me on causing her to reconsider what she thought she knew. Comments from the audience were overwhelmingly positive. I actually won speaker of the night. It was a scary experience, but I felt really good delivering my message.

    • LLMPapa says:

      Thank You for your message.

      Remember….

      “One voice I am who wants to help. Two voices are we if you help, too. One voice can turn to thousands, and together we can make a huge difference, but not without you.” -Ashley Morris

    • Brown says:

      Thank you from the bottom of my heart, for getting the message out,

    • Malisha says:

      Wow, we are so proud of you.

      Once I was on a bus and the woman next to me, herself a physician (it was an upscale commuter bus) characterized the Trayvon Martin case thus: “I think it was both their faults; a wannabe cop met a wannabe thus and the wannabe cop won.” I asked her why she thought that and learned in about ten seconds that “Trayvon Martin was not such an innocent kid; they gave the press pictures of him when he was 12.” I proceeded to very calmly describe the real events of that night to her. I used the phrase “fucking punks” instead of “fucking coons” just to be safe. At the end of the ride she told me she would vote to convict him if she were on the jury. This is what has made me stop worrying about what the public thinks when O’Mara runs his mouth and the Outhouse runs their [whatever]. When a rational person has already acquired all the prejudices needed to “see this George Zimmerman’s way,” they can be easily (four HOURS!) and calmly convinced by the facts ALONE that George Zimmerman committed second-degree murder.

      Good on YOU! 😀 ❗

      • racerrodig says:

        Fabulous !! In all reality, Z has far fewer supporters than we think. Months ago a friend of mine & I did the math re: his 200K in donations. 100K was from 3 entities of 25K each. That’s 100K left and they stated the average donation was 20$ and there were many repeat donators. It came down to less than 3000 donators……..They just have big racist driven mouths….the empty barrel syndrome.

        He is getting about 20$ a day now….he’s broke, stupid, unemployed, facing life in prison, is now overweight, has an attorney named Moron O’ Mara, is monitored, has a curfew, friends like Osterman, Taaffe & Oliver and married Miss Piggy……..wow…..I can see how the Zidiot Nation could……never mind !!

        • Xena says:

          I don’t think he has paid security anymore — can’t afford it. He is still paying that $8 a day for the GPS monitoring, so $20 a day less the $8 leaves him with $12. Apparently, MOM would not increase his allowance for him to purchase a suit to wear to court either, as we saw in his last 2 court appearances. Also, I’m still under the impression that ShelLIE has left GZ.

    • rachael says:

      Good for you!!!

    • Mike says:

      Congrats to you

    • Congratulations!

      I think those are the best speeches. When you know your subject thoroughly, throw out the prepared speech, and let loose with passion.

      Well done.

    • Fed-up taxpayer says:

      No wonder you won speaker of the night, you convinced a group previously opposed to your point of view.

    • jm says:

      Congratulations!

    • Thanks everyone! It was an exhilarating experience! Thanks for the kudos.

    • Xena says:

      Congratulations!!!! Often, speaking from the heart is the best way to go.

      When I watched Trayvon’s family on Dr. Phil, and Sybrina on Ricki Lake, the audience was captured by the sincerity spoken from the heart.

    • racerrodig says:

      Congrats !! I do quit a bit of public speaking and it can be a bit unnerving, that’s for sure. To boot, you picked a tough subject, so, my congrats for the effort and award !! Tell ‘Em !

    • Two sides to a story says:

      Awesome!

      • Two sides to a story says:

        “Also, I’m still under the impression that ShelLIE has left GZ.
        @Xena – I’ve also had that impression – or alternately, that she’s thinking hard about it.

        • Xena says:

          @Xena – I’ve also had that impression – or alternately, that she’s thinking hard about it.

          When GZ asked Barbara Walters to pay for a hotel room for a month for him and ShelLIE, I thought it strange that he would separately mention her. Together is together, no matter in a hotel room or safe house. It sounded more like an effort to make-up to ShelLIE for her being charged with perjury.

  7. Xena says:

    It’s November 6th. If you didn’t early vote, don’t forget to vote today.

  8. Digger says:

    The God’s Plan thing really gets to me, who in the hell can state what God Plans? People are mind conditioned from “some pulpits” and believe what they hear in words, with absolutely no understanding on their own. It is a hypnosis of the subconscious
    or maybe not. If a person has intentions to do bad, God’s Plan
    is one of the most hypocritical excuses used to cover their ass.

  9. Colin Black says:

    They exhame bodys very seldom an 70 percent of thease exhumations happen where poison is the perceived cause of death.They have exhumed bodies years after the interment an disscovered strcchnine .Morphine .Antifreeze..Many poisons do not disperse in the body,An some even help preserve tissue like arsnic..Soft tisssue injury is a different story this could be disscovered if looked for at time of death.But immpossable after body has been internes,You see you check for soft tissue injure through internal bruising caued by blood leaking inyo mucle causeing disscouloration /bruising an also from tiny rips in the mucle were force has ripped tissue an cause blood saturation..As I said detectible if checjrd for at autops ,,But not at a second autpsy if remains intered .Body has been enbalmed so all blood drained an replaced with formhaldhide…This compleatly destroys any evidence of soft tissuu Trauma as well as rendering any tears in the soft tissue invissive /non existant as it trans forms it into almost a leathry type consistancy……………….So thats the long answer short answer is no .No piont in exhuming now as all evidence destryed like other evidence in this case GZ tox repots for one .We know the victims tox but not the perps /SUBJECTS

      • rachael says:

        And more:

        “Exhumations are generally considered a sacrilege in most cultures. As a result they are very rare. However, in some situations, particularly when investigating a murder, exhumation becomes an unfortunate necessity. Regardless of the circumstances surrounding the exhumation, there are many legal steps that must be taken before permission can be granted by local governmental and religious authorities.”

        Then it goes into about 7 things you need to do to be able to do it. A lot of legalities, a lot of red tap, expensive and emotionally trying.

        Read more: How to Exhume a Body | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_2090340_exhume-body.html#ixzz2BPjbsfmZ

      • well it wouldn’t be sacrilege to me b/c i’m not religious. But i could i understand it would be pretty upsetting to family (especially if they were religious).

        my questions were about the logistics and legalities.

        i think the Jewish peeps don’t allow autopsies at all if they can help it!

        • Xena says:

          Sacrilege is when people who want Zimmerman free say to dig Trayvon up and kill him again.

          Sacrilege is when the same people say that GZ killing Trayvon saved more people than just himself from being killed, because Trayvon would have grown up to rape, rob and murder.

          Sacrilege is when the same folks say they want to go to Trayvon’s grave and eliminate their body waste on it.

          Sacrilege is when the same subject people participate on and/or refer others to a blog that claims to be owned by a Christian, and the blog owner gives unbelievers the impression that God approves of such sacrilege not because of what is said, but because of who says it — being superior and privileged and all.

          Sacrilege is killing an unarmed, 17 yr old 11th grader after calling him an asshole and following him while calling him a funking coon, then saying it was God’s plan.

      • Jun says:

        I could be wrong but Jews allow autopsies but only after a rabbi says a prayer so that the soul can rest in peace before the autopsy is performed…

      • About GOD’S PLAN.
        I keep noticing how much it bothered so many people when GZ said ‘it was God’s plan’ on hannity. It actually changed the minds of some of his supporters! So i’ve kinda wondered is there more to that statement than I might be aware of? Like for example what does that mean to Catholics, does it mean something else, besides, in my eyes, that GZ was using God as a crutch, as if he didn’t have control over what happens in the world. It was offensive to me that he said that instead of answering the question he was asked. But it **REALLY** offended other people so much that they keep talking about it and it caused people to change thier mind on the spot!

        • Xena says:

          But it **REALLY** offended other people so much that they keep talking about it and it caused people to change thier mind on the spot!

          It was the context of having no regrets. Most believers believe that God gives man choices. In essence, GZ said that he wasn’t thinking — he was a puppet with God doing the thinking for him. Thus, GZ said in essence that he is not responsible for discerning good from evil.

      • @ Xena……It couldn’t have been said better!

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, I didn’t know this country was so full of heartless “RACIST” who just used 9/11 to make the rest of the world think that this country was all that. why try to make people in other countries think we are all created equal and on a united front when it is ALL a LIE! why try to make it seem as if we are something that we are not, as far as these “BIGOTED RACIST” are allowing the rest of the world to see from a front row seat.

      • leander22 says:

        God’s plan is something you can hear in burial rituals. A wise prof, I respected a lot, once said to me, religion is ultimately about dealing with the fact that our life is limited, it’s about dealing with dead. Burial rites contain the wisdom of centuries about how to cope with the loss.

        I was brought up Catholic, struggling heavily with it from early on for several reasons. But the words he uses are usually used in burial rituals, they seem to become even more stressed if somebody dies early. The ritual suggests, you cannot struggle with Gods decision you have to surrender, to put it religiously, God called this person home.

        George clearly misuses this line of thought and twists it for his own advantage. As someone suggested above, he ulitmately claims to have acted as God’s puppet or his instrument on earth. It’s either that or he is a semi-god himself carrying out God’s will, that’s close to blasphemy from a Catholic perspective. Although obviously these regions that are meant to be unfathomable for the single believer.

        A central line of thought in Catholicism is remorse, confession, penitence. Were he a true Catholic, he would need to see a priest and confess, this priest wouldn’t be able to tell anyone about it, he has to keep it secret. But strictly you cannot pray 10 Lord’s prayers followed by ten Hail Mary’s, the usual penitence ritual, without searching your soul, exactly along the lines Hannity offered.

        As far as I know only the Jesuits have abolished confession, and don’t use the ritual with the confessional box any longer.

        Many people misuse religion for a superficial show of righteousness. That is exactly what happens here in a very extreme way.

    • Thanks for that!
      It’s interesting they didn’t check for tissue injury on Trayvon, at least a little bit since he was KILLED and his KILLER accused him of attacking him!
      Is that normal they wouldn’t read the KILLERS statement and try to match it up?

      • Jun says:

        They found a small scar under Trayvon’s left ring finger, like a quarter inch, and they found Global Brain edema and of course the gun shot wound. I believe it is a combination of being out of breath from being chased by George and fighting for his life, the gun shot wound, and the fact George threw the kid facedown and pinned the kid facedown by sitting on the kid’s back, asphyxiating the kid. George was also seen rubbing his hands all over the dead kid. I dont know the whole details but the state and Omara have better copies of the whole autopsy.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @shannonimmiami, they were so damn busy trying to cover this “MURDER” up to the point where, I don’t even trust the ME. LE knew they had a “HOMICIDE” on their hands and, they did everything they could to make sure it was flubbed up. they were in cover up mode and, sweeping this “CHILD’S MURDER” under the rug. every last one of those who were involved should be facing charges of, “OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE!” this goes for old man Zimmerman as well as, Wolfinger, Smith and Bill Lee. there were others but, I don’t know their names and at any rate they should be charged as well.

        • @lady, Bingo! i think those charges are comin’ round the mountain when the FBI comes.
          Someone here ( name: sounds like a warrior princess) knows all about this, and has been droppin hints for quite awhile. after a few comments were made while i was sick, i did a little poking around and found some interesting info on that issue.
          i think those fools will get what’s coming to them. just gotta wait for awhile.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @shannoninmiami, Thank you very much for such music to my eyes, to know that those who tried to the best of their ability to sweep this “MURDER” under their already dirty little rug, will be dealt with and, I hope this includes Robert Zimmerman Sr. I shudder to think what kind of magistrate this poor excuse of a man was. I think the State of Virginia needs to take a look at the cases that this POS presided over during his tenure as a magistrate in that state. there is no telling just how many cases he mae go away and, how much money it took for him to do just that. as I have said before, I always walk by faith and not by sight because, I know that GOD The ALMIGHTY is in control.

        • Xena says:

          @ladystclaire.

          I think the State of Virginia needs to take a look at the cases that this POS presided over during his tenure as a magistrate in that state.

          Papa Zim’s job as a magistrate was not that powerful. They sign search warrants and arrest warrants, schedule pre-trial procedures such as discovery. A J.D. is not required for the job because their responsibilities are procedural and not resolving substantive legal issues.

          Papa Zim’s advantage in having such a position would be in who he meets. That doesn’t appear to be much of an advantage now because we don’t hear where one of his peers offered their retirement home in Arizona or Florida to the Zimmermans so they can stop living like vagabonds. This is not to say that he may not have tried pulling some strings to benefit George but IMO, Osterman took on a more active role in that regard.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Xena, how could I have forgotten to name Osterman and Frank the Tank in that number of those who are going to go down for Obstruction of Justice in this case. I wouldn’t doubt if ShelLie as well as witness number 6, 11 and 20 will also go down for this as well. those people know more than they are saying and, they know it. BTW, it really feels so good, to be able to have a site where lucid adults can discuss this case without all of the nonsense on the HP site as well as The Caylee Daily. those who smear and speak ill of the victim and his family, can’t come here with their BS like they do at HP and expect to run amok as well as making it miserable for sane people to be able to stay there and have a decent discussion.

        • Xena says:

          @Xena, how could I have forgotten to name Osterman and Frank the Tank in that number of those who are going to go down for Obstruction of Justice in this case.

          It wouldn’t surprise me if Osterman was “cooperating” now with the feds to throw GZ under the bus. As far as Taaffe, he is probably under investigation for attempt to violate the Fair Housing Act.

          BTW, it really feels so good, to be able to have a site where lucid adults can discuss this case without all of the nonsense on the HP site as well as

          The Professor does a great job moderating and posting blogs that educate in addition to giving us opportunity to share our thoughts and discuss the evidence. I spend more time here than on my own blog. 🙂

      • Fed-up taxpayer says:

        Xena, Osterman did indeed take a big role in obstructing correct homicide procedure– indeed in training a psychopath to shoot to kill, over a long period of time– and made it clear to the world he was invested in an “off, scot-free” outcome. But he is merely a State’s witness. No consequence for this serial bungler.

      • ladystclaire says:

        @Jun, the part about him sitting on Trayvon’s back, well that is something I just can’t stand to read about. he actually squeezed the rest of the life out of that child when he sat his “FAT STINKING ASS” on his back like he did. I just can’t get over any of this and, for those who support this “FAT LUMP OF NOTHING,” they just don’t know that someone they love, could meet the very same fate. maybe it would serve them right if they did experience what Trayvon’s parents are going through.

      • Jun says:

        Also the fact the kid was screaming for help and fighting for his life in self defense lead to his death because his lungs and heart were working in overtime and he had a bullet hole in his lung and heart and he was being asphyxiated and molested by the defendant. George was sitting on the kid, rubbing his hands all over the kid while he was dying.

    • @Xena, oh, ok, sorry i thought that was called: fucking bullshit.

    • Brown says:

      Thank you for your post.
      : ^)

    • Thanks.

      I thought that was the case regarding soft tissue injuries but wasn’t sure.

  10. Jun says:

    I have a feeling Bernie and Corey will have to object a lot for Omara and West constantly using hearsay and leading. Then they with George will flip out in court

    • Malisha says:

      When George thought people were believing him, he went along with anything they seemed to say that seemed to make him think he seemed to sound like he had seemingly killed in self-defense. He was nowhere near Trayvon’s wrist because Trayvon was nowhere near George’s “the” gun because Trayvon was never on top of George trying to kill him because the whole story is a stupid clumsy lie. He had his gun out by the time he realized Trayvon was trying to resist him; probably a split second after DeeDee’s call broke off. He was using the rest of Trayvon Martin’s life for an interrogation that put him in the powerful position of the GRAND INQUISITOR WITH THE POWER OF LIFE OR DEATH and he got totally into it. By the time he killed Trayvon, he was not only NOT in fear for his life, he probably was on such a high he had never felt so magnificent in all of his pathetic cowardly drugged-out impotent life.

      • Jun says:

        One thing I am glad of is Governor Scott appointing Corey and that Mayor Triplett got involved because now George gets to face the same kind of fear he gave Trayvon.

    • ladystclaire says:

      Please promise me that he will indeed go nuggy buggy in the courtroom right on National TV. he already made himself look like the common fool that we all know he is, by wearing those knuckle band aids on his “FAT EMPTY HEAD” during his reenactment.none is so blind, as those “IGNORANT RACIST” who refuse to see the truth concerning this murder.

      • rachael says:

        I don’t know how they kept from LOL at him during that reenactment. OMG – and why would someone put Band-Aids on a head wound anyway. When I first saw that, my jaw dropped in disbelief and I was stunned. Then I laughed so hard my sides hurt. How fricken lame was that?

        SMH

      • Rachael, I’m surprised that Shellie didn’t use large gauze pads and duct tape on Georgie’s boo-boos. The knuckle band-aids are actually quite conservative considering what Georgie described as a severe head: beating/bashing/banging/slamming/pounding/punching/etc. (description varies in intensity from web-site to web-site)

      • Malisha says:

        The weird head bandaids and the boobooey looking nose bandaid made me think the following:

        (a) George’s advisors are idiots;
        (b) George is a lying sociopath whose only tale is “poor me”;
        (c) Shellie should never become a nurse. God help our children if that’s what she does to someone who got a capillary type laceration!

      • jm says:

        I have been taught that you do not cover an already healing wound like GZ had with a bandage that would keep the wound from getting good air circulation which prevents infection. Those big old bandages were for show and to cover the fact that 2 small lacerations/abrasions do not match his claim of getting his head bashed multiple times into cement. Even the placement of the 2 lacerations do not match his claims. What the bandages did was make GZ look like the bozo he is and make me question ShelLIE’s learning experience in nursing school, although it has been mentioned ShelLIE was a drop-out nursing student.

      • Malisha says:

        I promise you George will go nuggy buggy in the courtroom.
        😀

        • jm says:

          Malisha says: “I promise you George will go nuggy buggy in the courtroom. :grin”

          I think we have seen the obese medicated GZ already nuggy buggy in the courtroom. Anybody who paid attention to the rolling dark-circled eyes and GZ’s issues with even folding a simple piece of paper knows nuggy buggy has already set in.

          I don’t think GZ has the energy to go all physical crazy nuggy buggy because of weight issues and sedating medications. He looks like he has problems focusing on things that would make a non-medicated person nuggy buggy.

          Just my personal opinion of course. I do wonder whose idea it was to over-feed and medicate GZ to the point we have seen in his last 2 appearances in court. Love seeing him in this condition though. Picture defense saying GZ was afraid the skinny kid was going to kill him and after GZ shot the poor kid, he sat on top of him. Not a good mental image for the jury.

      • racerrodig says:

        I love a good laugh !! Thanks !! I love torturing the members of the Zidiot Nation to no end. The ignorance level is astounding.

        “FAT EMPTY HEAD” would be pretty accurate.

      • Jun says:

        What is even worse is I looked at the police station videos and pics compared to his bandage pics and Shellie placed the butterfly bandages on the wrong parts of the head, so his mini scratches had already healed. He also never had any cuts at all on his nose, so I dont know who he thinks he foolin with that mess.

  11. Jun says:

    I dont feel a second autopsy is necessary in this situation. The screams, the stalking, the pursuit, the chase, the forensics and ballistics proving that George had to had gripped Trayvon by the shirt and shoot him, the fact George was heard threatening Trayvon before shooting him is sufficient to convict him

    Like they say, anything you say can be used against you, so may as well use the fact he said he put him in a wrist lock against George as there is no way to dispute it

  12. bettykath says:

    I’d just take GZ’s word for it that he did the wrist lock. Exhumation could only throw some confusion on the issue if no injury were found.

    • yeah, your right. there’s no reason to question his words. if it’s good for the SPD it’s good enough for me!

      • rachael says:

        And no reason to do that to his parents. They have enough to deal with.

      • racerrodig says:

        I’ll retract my statement that he has only stated 2 truths which I said were.

        1) “..and then I got out of my truck…”
        2) “….I aimed and fired one shot…”

        and add

        3) “…I had wrist control…” Gee…..that doesn’t seem to help his cause a damn bit does it.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      Well wrist lock is Serino’s take. GZ claims he used his super strong armpit. Either way he did have Trayvon restrained in someway and however it went down its unlikely to shine well on GZ and his claim of SD.

      • bettykath says:

        GZ talking to Serino in the station house described what Serino called a wrist lock. GZ during the walk-thru used his armpit. Don’t remember if the wrist lock was mentioned in the walk-thru.

      • rachael says:

        Wrist control was talked about by Serino and I think the person who administered the voice stress analysis. While GZ did not go into much detail about what wrist control was, he did not object to the use of it being said or deny it.

  13. Xena says:

    IMO, forensics involving the gunshot holes in Trayvon’s clothes and the location of the bullet casing is sufficient to prove that GZ did not shoot and kill Trayvon in self-defense. Debris testing provides that debris was found on Trayvon’s sweatshirt that he wore underneath his hoodie. According to Zimmerman’s story, only Trayvon’s legs were on the ground as he mounted him.

    As well, no debris was found on Zimmerman’s shirt, which refutes his story that he shimmied to the grass causing his jacket to raise exposing his holstered gun.

    The cop take-down maneuvers can cause muscle stress to the shoulder, but not bone injuries. Since blood circulation is necessary to cause bruising, and Trayvon’s heart was stopped by the hollow point bullet, it is unlikely that bruising would have occurred.

    The lack of bruising on GZ should be the focus to support that he was not knocked down and pinned by Trayvon. A grown man of his weight falling to the ground should result in some bruising to his body. The logical conclusion is that GZ was the cause of taking the altercation to the ground.

    • @ Xena, IMO you are absolutely RIGHT!!!
      so where are those medical records and photos of GZ’s bruises and black eyes and all the scrapes on his ass and back from shimming, and the documentation of all those punches to his fat head??!!
      shoot, GZ must have all those pics and docs posted on his begsite?? i must of missed that page!

      • Xena says:

        @ Xena, IMO you are absolutely RIGHT!!! so where are those medical records and photos of GZ’s bruises and black eyes and all the scrapes on his ass and back from shimming, and the documentation of all those punches to his fat head??!! shoot, GZ must have all those pics and docs posted on his begsite?? i must of missed that page!

        Yeah. Private photos that only donors of a hundred dollars or more are given the password to see. LOL!!

      • Mike says:

        LoL word of the day “begsite”
        Had me laughing for 15 min

      • Jun says:

        LMAO Omara’s excuse is that the black racists with their jewish media propaganda have made them unavailable

        (I am kidding in case people are wondering)

        • Xena says:

          LMAO Omara’s excuse is that the black racists with their jewish media propaganda have made them unavailable (I am kidding in case people are wondering)

          West’s excuse is that there is a Black Hispanic conspiracy against Zimmerman’s mom because she won’t ‘fess up to being a Black Hispanic who married a Jew so her children would be White Hispanics. The new term they have introduced for Zimmerman is “bi-Hispanic.”

      • camanokat says:

        Begsite! Hahahahaha! Love it!

    • Vicky says:

      I made an observation during the last hearing. GZ has no visible scar on the back of his head. At least not that I could detect and I was looking since it appeared he had recently had a haircut. Had his injury been deep enough to require stitches, as he claimed it was, but too much time had passed, his head would have a small area with no hair. Further proof that his injury was superficial.

      • ladystclaire says:

        Not to mention how straight his broken nose is, especially since he did not have any reported surgery! this is nothing but a lying POS an a “MURDERER” to boot!

      • Xena says:

        Had his injury been deep enough to require stitches, as he claimed it was, but too much time had passed, his head would have a small area with no hair. Further proof that his injury was superficial.

        Yes Vicky. It has always been my impression that any sore on the head that seriously scalps, doesn’t grow hair. Also, it appears from the pics taken at the police station that GZ’s boo-boos, including those small scratches on his face, were already scalping.

    • racerrodig says:

      I’ll start with, Z (I can’t even stand to type his name) is more hateable every day. I agree 100% he can’t escape the lack of grass stains on his jacket. Then Officer Smith said he was covered in grass. Huhhhh ? What suspect was he looking at ?

      The fact that this loser of a misfit just kept up his sales pitch for so long and actually installed the nails in his own coffin is laughable. Is he that stupid that he thought nobody would say…
      “…..turn around please…..(sound of shutter click) …to the right please….(sound of shutter click) ….face forward now (sound of shutter click)…..” Or “….how come there are no grass stains on your back….and why are the toes of your boots wet and bristling with grass ??”

      I don’t think any further examination is warranted, he hung himself.

      • Xena says:

        The fact that this loser of a misfit just kept up his sales pitch for so long and actually installed the nails in his own coffin is laughable.

        Well, let’s not forget that GZ was once a used car salesman at CarMax, where he also tried bullying his Middle Eastern co-worker into splitting commissions with him. Can we say “strong arm” gangster?

  14. I just saw on ID channel the other day, after death if the body is placed on something; for instance a bumpy surface, like even tiny rocks, marks would be/could be very visible and indented indefinitely or at least until the total decomposition, on the skin’s surface. Basically if the injury happens after death (after the blood stops flowing or settles elsewhere) marks are detectable both on the skin and within the tissues.
    I don’t know what could happen in the case of sprained wrist prior to the shot other than it would stop healing at time of death… But it could be possible any tearing in the muscle tissue could be seen by a pathologist. And probably even after all the stuff they do for burial? And from what i read and remember in the autopsy all i saw was the examination of the organs and not really any details about other injury except for the scratches on the finger.
    But the wrist injury would of been very important to have documented if the ME woulda heard GZ’s explanation of the ‘wrist hold’ that he so stupidly told Serino about. Why wouldn’t they have used GZ’s statements to help them with the examination??? Isn’t that SOP to substantiate or discredit his account? Again did they drop the ball there too??

    If it were my son, and i think i would totally agree to exhume my son to find more evidence, could i just hire someone to do it myself? Would i have to tell anyone ( i mean anyone, even the state) if they didn’t find more evidence against GZ?

    • BTW, i’m back! i’ve been sick for days from the kindergarten cooties! My old body just can’t handle the germs those little grubby fingers bring home! Are there immunizations for kid germs?! 😉

    • rachael says:

      I don’t think you can just go digging up bodies, even if it is your family. You have to have a reason and an order for it, and personally, unless there was something really significant I thought was missed, like he died from something other than a gunshot wound and they missed it, I would never want to put the family through something like that and if it were my son, no, I would not want him exhumed unless, like I said, I thought there was really something missed that would change everything. It is enough they should have to hear those cries and pleas for help. Digging up the body for evidence they would probably not find anyway (if it was there, I’m sure it isn’t now) or that would not change the outcome (like he died of injuries other than the gsw).

    • gblock says:

      I’m not sure, but it seems like any significant bruising should have been noted on the original autopsy. I’m not sure about tissue damage in general.

  15. Malisha says:

    Whether or not George injured Trayvon in some non-visible way that could or could not be detected now is basically irrelevant to the question of whether the killing amounted to murder or not. If there were a serious question of whether there should be an added charge of “malicious wounding” or “assault with a deadly weapon” or “deliberate infliction” or some such, I could see there being some interest in that line of questioning, but after you kill somebody, is it really that interesting how you hurt him first? I could see it if there were a question of whether or not it was actually this particular shooter who had shot that particular victim, but since there’s no doubt about that, I wonder why the rest of it is so important.

    What is important, in my opnion, is whether George displayed the necessary depravity (I would say yes, beyond a reasonable doubt) for the Murder-2 charge, and whether George’s story of self-defense can hold up (I would say no, beyond a reasonable doubt). For the rest of it, I can’t see much need for the data that might or might not be developed.

    • i think evidence of the wrist lock or hold that GZ admitted he used to hold Trayvon still, thus rendering Trayvon even MORE helpless, gave him all that time to point, aim and shoot him point blank, would be pretty damming! We’re Not talking about using it as a prior injury to show malice, but using it to show GZ had Trayvon in a way where he was in total control and then couldn’t be in fear of death!

      • Jun says:

        I think the screams, with the ballistics and the forensics of the bullet holes of TM’s shirts and the chest wound is sufficient that George had this kid in a submission hold

      • Tzar says:

        “Jun says:
        November 5, 2012 at 10:03 pm

        I think the screams”

        Jun, I have intimated and been saying that, to all who would listen, from the day I mustered up the courage to listen to that 911 call. Those howls are that of someone in pain. they also are the reason why I still think GZ had help.

      • racerrodig says:

        Not only the fact he was in control, the SYG law states he must “…exhaust every avenue of escape” before using deadly force. Clearly he did not even try let alone “…exhaust…”

        He admits he had wrist control and bet your last dollar the prosecution will make a mountain out of that and rightfully so, he has no immunity claim. I can’t wait to see if there is a reenactment of the wrist hold and then the one playing Z breaks the hold and runs away……right out the courtroom doors. Talk about a dynamic demonstration……

        This guy is more hateable every day.

  16. Two sides to a story says:

    Might it not be possible for such an injury to occur and then little or no bruising occur because of the gunshot wound?

  17. Brown says:

    That clears up alot, thank you for your post.

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