How should the Court deal with Serino telling witnesses that Zimmerman was the person they heard screaming for help?
Should that evidence be admitted or excluded, and why?
To assist the discussion, I am going to provide context with an example that may come up during the trial.
Let us assume that Serino is the witness and O’Mara is cross examining him.
Q: When you interviewed the witness Mary Cutcher, you told her that the person whom she heard screaming for help was the person who survived, didn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: And that person was George Zimmerman, correct?
A: Yes.
The prosecution is going to want to clean up this mess on redirect and here is an example of how that might be accomplished.
Q: Do you recall testifying on cross examination that you told the witness Mary Cutcher that George Zimmerman was the person who screamed for help?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you right or wrong about that?
A: I made a mistake. I was wrong.
Q: Please tell the members of the jury when and how you realized that you made a mistake?
A: I listened to a recording of a 911-call that I had not previously listened to and when I did, I could actually hear two different voices. Based on what I heard them say, I realized that I was mistaken.
Q: Showing you what has already been identified and admitted into evidence as State’s Exhibit 125, a recording of a 911-call that night, can you identify this recording?
A: Yes, State’s Exhibit 125 is the recording that I listened to when I realized my mistake.
Your Honor, may I play the recording for the members of the Jury.
The Court: You may.
Note that this potential scenario explains Serino’s error as an innocent mistake. For whatever reason, and he will supply the reason, he believed George Zimmerman was the person screaming for help.
What happens if he independently decided, or he was ordered to decide that George Zimmerman was the person screaming when he knew that was not true, or unlikely to be true?
Even if this scenario is what actually happened, I do not expect Serino will admit it and when you think about it, I do not believe the actual truth matters to the outcome of the Zimmerman trial.
In other words, even if Serino independently decided to attempt to convince witnesses that George Zimmerman was screaming for help, or he was ordered to do that, the identity of the person screaming does not change.
There are only two possibilities. Either Trayvon Martin or George Zimmerman uttered that terrified shriek and the jury can decide who it was by listening to the recording.
There really is no doubt and there never was any doubt because only two voices can be heard, one threatening and one pleading, and the shriek is punctuated with a solitary gunshot to the heart.
Therefore, police opinions and the expression of those opinions are not relevant. That is, they are not probative of Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence.
Therefore, you might reasonably expect the State to file a motion in limine (i.e., at the beginning of the trial) to prohibit the defense from mentioning or questioning witnesses about Serino’s efforts to persuade witnesses that Zimmerman was the person screaming for help.
If I were the judge, I would grant the State’s motion absent evidence from the defense that Serino’s error is relevant.
Note: I am not saying the issue of why Serino did what he did is not important. I believe it is very important and worthy of investigation to determine if it were an innocent mistake or evidence of a decision not to charge Zimmerman before the investigation was completed. There is more than a hint of corruption here and an investigation is warranted.
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
Regardless of what each of us believe and feel about the CA case
It did not take time to put the death penalty on. Is that because Caylee was a child who couldn’t protect herself? Trayvon was also a child (17) who could not help himself in the situation he was in so I can not figure out why the DP was not also as hastily considered in Zimmerman killing Trayvon.
Digger, the death penalty would have made the case ten times harder to try and would have cost the state ten times as much money. Then there would be individuals, like myself, who would be in favor of conviction (100%) and against the death penalty (100%) and that would make a mess of the advocacy issues and the meda. Also, the rest of the countries of the world who normally support our kind of due process are revolted by the death penalty so we would lose them as well and take a beating in the international press and the international law community. Not worth it at all, in my opinion.
Malisha, thank you for the time of fully explaining, for those of us who only have our toes touching the justice system, we always have our why’s going on. You opened my eyes to the tremendous and intricate amount of thought that has to be processed such as Cory did making the decision and rightfully so. This is an excellent blog. I don’t know who you are or what you do but your way of expressing is that of a most appreciated contribution. You brought understanding to something that has been nagging at me for months on why murder 2 and not DP.
I think prison is a worse punishment than the death penalty anyways.
Rachel, at 5:35 I was not making argument, only thoughts as to what the defense might try to work with. Security Guard? Ok that was simply a hasty missed wording of “Night Watchman” intend to be. The point was if the defense can use the fact that he may not have been on his ADHD (“?) medication he supposedly needs, combined with the impulsiveness of thinking he was at liberty to
act as he did. Not saying what he did is what I believe to be right only asking in a speculative way, what they may able to pump up his defense with. Also, we understand that pre-meditated murder can be just seconds before the kill. Is that correct? So why wasn’t this a consideration. We all know he did not HAVE to fire that gun and take Trayvon’s life.
Digger, in Florida, if you want to charge First Degree (premeditated) murder you have to go to the grand jury for your indictment, you can’t just bring the charge as Corey did. I believe Corey thought the act was Murder-1 but she figured, correctly, that if she convened a grand jury she might get enough racists on the grand jury to refuse to indict him. Had they handed down a “no bill” there would be no trial at all and he could never b e held responsible. It was a sizeable risk because no matter what your evidence is, even with evidence as good as what they have and what they are holding onto and not even TELLING us about, a prejudice grand jury can destroy a case and since they are closed proceedings, the press and public never find out why. They would even get away with sitting there in their closed grand jury proceeding OPENLY TALKING RACISM and get away with it. So Corey did a wise thing; settled for Murder-2 where (a) you don’t have to prove that he PLANNED to murder; and (b) you don’t have to give the grand jury a chance to secretly discard the case.
I think premeditation is too hard to prove in this case. I think it is easier to say he targeted, stalked, chased, and continually pursued this kid with ill will and a gun. The defendant in his deranged mind thinks he is some type of super cop and starts blaming a kid walking home with candy of being a criminal with no proof whatsoever. The kid was simply walking home from the store. The kid, obviously creeped out at the crazy stranger that keeps stalking him by car, tries to get away and run from the creepy stranger. The defendant then gets out of his car to start chasing the kid down the street with a gun and a flashlight. The kid gets away for a bit and gets a call from his girlfriend. The unidentified stranger, the defendant, was told by police to stop his pursuit of the kid. The defendant disregards instructions and continues his escalation of a hostile situation. The defendant confronts the victim, a kid, with a gun. The defendant has a size advantage as well as age advantage and a mental advantage as he was angy and hateful at the kid and wanted to do him harm. The defendant attacks the kid and a struggle ensues. The kid tries to defend himself. The kid tries to pin the defendant on the ground but was unsuccessful. The kid through the whole encounter continually screams for help before being silenced by the defendant when he shoots the kid in the heart and lung. The defendant then throws the kid facedown and pins the kid facedown, asphyxiating the kid. Combined with the gun shot, trying to run away from the unidentified creepy stranger, the defendant, the victim was out of breath, asphyxiated and bleeding from a gunshot wound which lead to the kid’s death and also gave him global brain edema. As the defendant sat on the kid’s back, pinning the kid facedown asphyxiating him, the defendant started rubbing his hands all over the kid.
I have a new post up:
Zimmerman: To Exhume or Not to Exhume, That is the Question
oooh papa is he the same officer that called in the other tag
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audio/police-radio-dispatch/
calls 53 & 54
Clearly, call 54 was about a vehicle relating to a person whose last name was Zimmerman.
Hmmm. He knew GZ and knew he was the head of the NW. Made contact with several witnesses and collected sworn statements but no reports? Are you serious?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/20/1093168/-Was-the-fighting-over-when-Zimmerman-shot-Trayvon
Some direction please: ^ ) who is the witness they are referring to about hearing I’ve got a gun. I’ve got a gun.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2012/05/17/autopsy-evidence-marijuana-martin-blood/A3rLl2WfLoUBQtyjWFfoYJ/story.html
same here
Brown, I don’t remember any witness saying that within the context of it being before GZ shot Trayvon. IIRC, it was a witness stating that they heard GZ say to a police officer that he had a gun. I’ll have to listen to the taped interviews again to see if I can find it.
Thanks Xena,
Xena –
I normally don’t go in for the conspiracy theory stuff – but I just found this article about armed security guards and thought it was interesting:
“Some of the guards are truly malicious and may use the same guns to terrorize the people they are supposed to guard. For instance, a watchman can very easily rob the house he is watching as he knows vital information that goes on in the house, like the times people leave and when they come back. The same watchmen may be hired by other people to harass the people they watch. Having a gun would be a catalyst to such behavior.”
As a side, there is this paragraph too:
“It is also important not to let the guard in on very vital information, as this may lead to malicious attacks and even death. And as it is advisable for normal citizens not to carry guns, it is also advisable not to have the person watching your kids not to have a gun, as mistakes that may lead to deaths happen, and as we all know, nothing replaces a dead person.”
http://securitynews.hubpages.com/hub/SecurityGuardsGuns
@Rachael,
I love a good a good book or movie on conspiracy theories. But it also occured to me about what you posted and what Xena has posted, that lead me to a thought about GZ usuing the people names @RVC and his job. He has alot of access to information regarding peoples mortgages and such. Just a thought.
Rachael, I once lived in a gated community that had security. They were not armed, however. They were actual employees hired to man the gates and patrol. As more houses were built in that community and residency increased, the HOA justified an increase in association fees by telling residents how important it was to keep security personnel and that they should let security know when they would be away for significant times so that security could patrol those areas. Burglaries began happening like crazy.
Eventually, the Sheriff found that a security guard, having knowledge of when residences were unoccupied, let his friends inside the gate to break into those houses. One guy rented a storage area where stolen property was found. It was said that another was selling some of the stolen property (CD’s) at a flea market.
GZ took a posture of being “helpful” and most people do not stop to think about the information they give out for when they are not home, what they own, etc. The type of NW that GZ conducted was not “watch” as in seeing something suspicious around his own residence. Rather, he was patrolling. Yet, from the time he organized NW in Sept. 2011 until Feb. 2, 2012, he made 4 NEN calls, with only the last one consisting of suspecting a man of being a burglar.
GZ also took time and effort to contact the police about leads or captures of suspects. We have no idea how he suddenly became the knowledge base for crimes committed in that community that he did not see take place. It’s almost as though each time a person was victimized, GZ knew about it, although with the exception of Taaffe, victims had no knowledge of GZ. It smells of using NW as a cover-up.
Whoa, I missed that one. Wow!
Folks, I have more good news. Pat Lee from the SPD just responded and the bill for the FOIA will be low enough that I can send it down there tomorrow! I won’t need help — you who offered money to help with this, save it so you can bring chips and dips to the victory party in 2013.
Here, in pertinent part, is the correspondence me to them and Pat Lee back to me about the FOIA:
I made a FOIA request pursuant to Florida Code Section 119, for:
(1) Report of shooting at Retreat at Twin Lakes (“RTL”);
(2) Reports of all crimes reported by Miami Herald on March 17, 2012;
(3) Documentation of all complaints received from RTL residents.
Pursuant to Florida Code Section 119 I requested, under the Sunshine Law, the following information.
FIRST: REPORT OF “a shooting” at RTL prior to 2/26/2012.
On March 17, 2012, the Miami Herald apparently reported that there had been “eight robberies, nine thefts and a shooting” at RTL during the year before 2/26/2012. I asked for every police report of every shooting (of any kind) that took place within or in a 3-mile radius of RTL from January 1, 2010 until February 26, 2012.
SECOND: REPORTS OF OTHER CRIMES ALLEGED TO HAVE TAKEN PLACE
I also requested reports of the “eight robberies” and “nine thefts” that reportedly took place at RTL referred to in the Miami Herald article, including the resolution of those cases in terms of who was apprehended for said crimes. I asked for all these crimes that allegedly took place from January 1, 2011 until February 26, 2012.
THIRD: REPORTS/NOTES from NW and/or HOA Meetings at RTL
According to on-line news sources, an RTL resident, who attended an emergency home¬owner’s association meeting on March 1, told the Huffington Post that:
“[O]ne man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home. … ‘It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics in his neighborhood watch role, they added. * * * Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, who is leading the investigation into the [Trayvon Martin] shooting, and a member of the City Council both attended the meeting, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter. Neither were available for comment.”
So I asked for the police notes of all RTL Neighborhood Watch and/or Homeowners Association meetings at which any police officer attended or were contacted and/or provided information for the meetings, including dates, individuals in attendance, and pertinent information; and
I asked for reports of any and all complaints made from January 1, 2009 through the present date by any residents of RTL about the subject of the conduct of any Neighbor¬hood Watch personnel, including but not limited to George Michael Zimmerman, whe¬ther or not said complaints resulted in police contact with the subject of the complaints.
Today I received by e-mail, the following:
===================================
In response to your public records request, the following is our estimate to produce the information you requested on Oct. 23, 2012:
ESTIMATE:
Items 1 & 2: 39 Reports (3 to 5 pgs each). Review & Redact reports 39 X 10 minutes = 390 min. divided by 60 mins/hr =
6.5 hrs @ $11.80/hr for a charge of $76.70
Items 3 & 4: [Please note, I do not understand what Item “4” might be because I only remember asking for three items, but I am not going to quibble if I get four] Crime Analyst to pull info from discovery (3 hrs.) = for a charge of $35.40
ESTIMATE/DEPOSIT DUE: $ 112.10
============================
So this is wonderful and this is doable. I hope they don’t redact the whole thing and send me a big black magic marker!
As soon as I know something more I will let you know. If they DO redact the heck out of it, I’ll be looking for some journalist to go down there and check out what is in those files. Reports of crimes are probably not secret.
Stand by! 😀
Standing by.
Thanks!
Congratulations, Malisha!!! Thanks for having the wisdom and motivation to file FOIA requests. Also, thanks for sharing the news with us. I am personally concerned about the “shoot someone else.”
I’m concerned about the “shoot someone else” too, but someone once said maybe by that it was meant he shot someone other than that whom he was intended to shoot – like maybe he was supposed to shoot someone in sweat pants instead of khakis.
LOL and I say I’m not into conspiracy theories. Well maybe I’m indulging a little today.
I am interested in the people who complained about him. I think when that was said he shot someone else. I tend to think its just the way they speak in Florida. But anything is possible with this guy.
Well Rachael, at least our conspiracy theories are based on questioning things that GZ or his BFF stated or other facts, rather than trying to find evidence, for example, that GZ used the handle “Big Daddy Mafia” on Twitter because someone tweeted that handle saying “I hope your case is dismissed.” LOL!!!
Thank you so much Malisha!!!!!!!!!!
Cool… but you will have to explain to me because I have no idea what type of report you are getting
Under the “Freedom of Information Act,” of which the Florida “Sunshine Act” is an example, individuals are entitled to find out what the government does. So anybody can basically tell the government to turn over its records to them, if they pay for the copying and gathering costs. Arrest reports, crime reports, police reports, etc. etc. are government records. You don’t need a subpoena in a lawsuit or criminal case to get them. You send in a “FOIA” request to get them and you pay your fee.
I read about “crimes” reported in the newspapers. They said there were “eight burglaries, nine thefts and a shooting” at RTL in the year before George killed Trayvon. I asked for those reports from the police department. I read about people in the HOA phoning in complaints to the police about George. There should be records of those complaints. I asked for THEM too. If police went to HOA meetings, there should be reports from THEM too. I asked for them.
They apparently have 39 records that fit the descriptions I asked for. As soon as I pay for them, they have to send them to me! YAY!!
Malisha weren’t you hoping to find out if GZ shot “someone else”? Good luck!
Ok… I was wondering about the complaints against George because I heard about him terrorizing that kid he accused of stealing his bike when the kid never did steal it, the kid’s dad bought it
Splendid news!
I am delivering a persuasive speech today at Toastmasters to a large group of the one percent. My thesis statement – “The purpose of this speech is to convince the audience that George Zimmerman did not act in self defense when he took Trayvon Martin’s life.”
Wish me luck.
Best luck to you, Diary OASL! Break a leg!
Oooh, let us know how it goes.
Much Luck!
Best wishes.
Diary, I might have stated it in a confusing way. State’s attorney’s office is in Viero; ethics committee is in Tallahassee.
I’m not saying it will work, just that it might be a good thing…
Thanks, Malisha.
Oh buddy! Look at to whom the complaints go. Wolfinger, himself. It was his assistant who became very upset when Serino wanted to charge with manslaughter.
A bit of perhaps relevant information, not about Serino, not about the SPD.
State’s Attorney Norman Robert Wolfinger –
Bar License in Florida 166159
Address: state’s Attorney’s Office
2725 Judge Fran Jamieson Way, Bldg. D
Viera, FL 32940-6605
admitted to the bar: 10-18-1973
Complaints can be made to the Florida Bar via the
Committee on Ethics, phone – 850-488-7864
also you can go to http://www.FloridaBar.org
You can make a complaint by filing a “Form 50” and notarizing it
and sending it to
Florida Bar Ethics Commission
PO Drawer 15709
Tallahassee FL 32317-5709
I have not yet checked whether a person from out of state can file an ethics complaint. Just sayin…
GZ said he was off-duty that evening. Is that because he said so or because he wasn’t “scheduled” to be? Does GZ even have a schedule?
If not, can he on duty up until he spots someone suspicious and then act as a resident not under guidelines and do as he pleases?
SupremeVictory, I’ve asked this many times and never got an “official” answer other than there apperes to be no svhedule, people just supposed to report suspicous things and GZ was pretty much “on patrol” whenever, but remember, the watch is ALL made up of residents so it isn’t like GZ had any special authority.
rachael says: GZ was pretty much “on patrol” whenever, but remember, the watch is ALL made up of residents so it isn’t like GZ had any special authority.
We have NW watch signs in our community. No one “patrols.” Everyone is on watch 24-7 for unusual activity in the area.
For example, If I started out to go shopping at Target and on my way, I happened to see some suspicious behavior, I am to call 911.
So technically you could say I am both going to Target and I am a neighborhood watch person – even though I am not “patrolling” the neighborhood. This would be called common sense multitasking by anyone but Zimmerman, his family members or a Zimbecile who draw lines between going shopping and being a neighborhood watch person (captain?).
SupremeVictory……We have “COP” (which is: cellular on patrol) in our neighborhood. It is made up of residents who do have a schedule. They drive around the neighborhood and just call in any problems that they observe. Ours is a very diverse neighborhood and would have driven George completely crazy with his “suspicions” if he had lived here. Over the years we have had teens walking around with hoodies, droopy drawers..lol, spiked hair…my son was into that style, doo-rags, chains on pants, etc. ……whatever was the “in” style at the moment that teens felt the need to be a part of. Teens are also very restless and like to just get out of their parents house and walk, with friends or alone. So there are teens walking through our neighborhood in the evening too….nothing suspicious about that. Trayvon was just a typical teen.
I dont think it really matters if he was on duty or not, he cant just start stalking and chasing and repeated pursuing an unarmed kid with candy and tea as well as terrorizing the kid with a gun for simply walking home and in his crazy mind, the kid was somehow suspicious for walking home and being scared of a stranger stalking him at night time. Whether NW or not, he cant do that, as that is a huge infringement of Trayvon’s constitutional rights.
Jun, I agree, but I wonder if his being a security guard will give him a break as in his impulsiveness to protect the complex, having reported break-ins, etc. I am just thinking if the defense can tie all this together in some legal way to “excuse” his behavior because he “forgot” that he was not on duty, and saw what he termed a possible threat. An AH HAH moment. Here’s one of them “up to no good a–h—s.”
He calls dispatch but he still WANTED to be the one to “get him”!
The defense will not be able to because George acted willfully with intent and he had no legal authority to act as law enforcement as well as being murder 2, it can also be charged along with aggravated stalking and false imprisonment, and, his repeated pursuit and stalking of a scared kid, who was scared of the unidentified stranger continuously following him with ill will and intent, also counts towards him being the aggressor, therefore, he has limited rights under SYG, which George also fails in.
As well, it opens the door to all the complaints and other crazy aggressive behavior George did as a bouncer and NW and other history, which includes him terrorizing another black kid whom George accused of stealing his bike and the police investigated and found George’s accusations were wrong and he shouldnt have terrorized that kid, and his various other complaints of his threatening patrols with his gun.
@ Digger – Did I miss something? You said:
“Jun, I agree, but I wonder if his being a security guard will give him a break as in his impulsiveness to protect the complex, having reported break-ins, etc. I am just thinking if the defense can tie all this together in some legal way to “excuse” his behavior because he “forgot” that he was not on duty, and saw what he termed a possible threat. An AH HAH moment. Here’s one of them “up to no good a–h—s.”
He calls dispatch but he still WANTED to be the one to “get him”!
When was he ever a security guard? He was NOT a security guard. He was started up a NW program. In order to be an armed security guard you have to apply through your states’ Department of Justice or Bureau of Security and be hired by someone or a service. NW programs are volunteer, armed security guards are paid positions.
Regardless, the rules for the NW program were pretty explicit (perhaps someone can post them, they are in the evidence somewhere) that you observe and report. You do not follow, apprehend or try to take matters into your own hands. You observe and report. The rest is the job of the police. George or anyone would have been right to call and report something they though was suspicious. Period. Also, they do not want people patrolling with guns.
George is a perfect example of why someone is not to take matters into your own hands and why not to carry a gun while patrolling. Now he could just as easily say he wasn’t on patrol, but still, as long as Trayvon was not in the act of doing something wrong, his job was done after he called the police.
Everything he did after that and everything that happened as a result is the very reason NW programs have the rules they have and the police will say the same.
Not only could a young life had not been lost and a family torn apart, but he could have spared the neighbors and witnesses so much time and money as well as the court system if he would have just listened to the rules. I’m sure the dollar figure for this trial will be in the millions and there is no monetary amount that can ever compensate the heartache and emotional pain to everyone involved. What he has cost the taxpayers of Florida will be a fortune, but the emotional costs will be devastating.
And those nuts that fall out of their tree at the outhouse think GZ should sue everyone and get rich because of what has happened to him. What a LOT of fricken nerve. Anything and everything that happened to him is of his own doing. Whether he is convicted or not, how could he even consider suing for a dime? If he would have just gone by the rules – yes the same rule everyone else has to go by (instead of thinking he is someone special who does not have to go by the same rules),
NONE of this would have happened.
Regardless of whether or not there is a coverup, George Zimmerman, YOU and YOU ALONE did what you did and while you have the right to sue anyone you want for anything you want, you have to be insane for thinking anyone owes you anything for your bad judgment that night and in all your actions after. Stand up, be a man and take responsibility for your actions.
Your comment pretty much sums up this case.
Well done.
I have a confession/apology to make: Sanford PD did respond to my request, but I used an old e-mail address in my FOIA so I never saw their response. They were estimating the charges for my FOIA request. So they are almost done with estimating the charges and will send me their request for payment soon and I will pay it and then I will get their information. If the cost is high it may take me a bit longer to pay and receive. But they are not to blame for the delay; I am. 😳
Let me know if you need any help defraying the cost.
I’ll help…
tell me where to send the mulah ; ^ )))
Malisha, I will help also.
Malisha,
I’ll help pay the costs
Chief Richard Myers just e-mailed me that Lt. McAuliffe (the FOIA officer) will respond soon. YAY!! (YAY so far, that is.) (This does mean they don’t think they can just shrug me off without even a kiss-off letter.) 💡
GOOD JOB Malisha!!!!
Yay!!!!!
jm, you ask: Can’t believe how corrupt this police department is. What is in it for them?
My guess: what’s in it for them is that they have ALWAYS operated as a corrupt organization. Charge whomever they want; give a pass to whomever they want. This time it blew up in their face.
YOu ask: Can Billy Lee or Serino be charged with any sort of crime for obstructing justice? Yes. 42 USC 1981 makes it a crime to deprive someone of constitutional rights under color of state law. I think they could catch Lee under this one. Federal offense.
You say: Thank heaven for modern technology that is leading to the undoing of these horrible lying people with no regard for human life, no longer just limited to GZ. It’s not the technology that leads to their undoing; it’ public pressure and the fact that there’s media coverage.
Malisha says: “It’s not the technology that leads to their undoing; it’ public pressure and the fact that there’s media coverage.”
I think the NEN recording that showed GZ’s true thoughts about black males in general plus the timelines on the calls was helpful in bringing about the public pressure and media coverage. Without this, I suspect we would just have to take GZ’s word for what happened and RZ Jr’s word that GZ is not a racist.
To me, the NEN call proves that stalking Trayvon was racially motivated. He clearly stated these azzholes always get away as Trayvon was running away. That angry state of mind captured on the recording is something GZ can’t escape. If not for the recording, we would just have to accept GZ’s word for what happened.
The reason I got so involved in this case was the heartbreaking screams captured on 911 calls, the shot and the sudden absence of cries for help. If the screams weren’t captured I guess we would have to take GZ’s word for what happened and this case would not have captured media attention or gotten so much public pressure.
I hope that the public pressure keeps up and that GZ will get what he deserves thanks to all the technology that will prove him a liar and a murderer.
Oh yes, I agree with you on these counts. Absolutely.
Yes. I want to say more, but im texting on my phone and it is too hard, but yes, I agree.
I actually hadn’t heard of this case until the NEN transcript was posted on the HP site. What first caught my attention was the fact that it had to do with the Sanford Police Department (I recalled their past history of cover-up behavior). Then I read the transcript and found George’s statements and actions so unbelievable that I had to look into this case further. Because of social media, the citizens are becoming “big brother” to the government…lol.
CS: Okay, I want you to think about that. I am speaking for you, for everybody. I’m trying to, I’m trying to do the best I can here.
Chief, see that part about [2:41} and he had left Retreat View Circle and was walking back to his car? The call started at 7:09:34 pm. 2:41 later would only be 7:12:15 pm AND it’s only 97 feet from RVC to where he’s saying this kid attacked him!”
Billy: “OK, so what’s your point?”
Serino: “Chief, 97 feet should only take less than 30 seconds to walk! This guy didn’t even get off the phone with the NEN dispatcher until 7:13:41 pm! What are we supposed to do about that?”
Billy: You’ve been in this department how many years? And you still need to ask me a dumb question like THAT? YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO!
CS: Oh.
Billy: [wink][nod]
so that later, when questioned:
Q: Chief Billy, did you tell Serino to fudge any evidence?
CS: NO! Absolutely NOT!
👿
I get confused sometimes. Did this actually happen, was this actually said? (Sometimes I get confused when it is a theory here or if it was actually stated and I’m late to class so can’t look it up – sorry.)
CS: Okay, I want you to think about that. I am speaking for you, for everybody. I’m trying to, I’m trying to do the best I can here.
I can see the “I’m trying to do the best I can here” being cop talk, but if the part about “I am speaking for you, FOR EVERYBODY”
Just who is that everybody?
Serino did say, “I’m speaking for you here, [?] everybody” but I think he said, “I’m speaking for you here, TO everybody” — that was MY take on it, listening to the tape.
The rest of MY comment was made-up dialogue I was imagining. But that sentence was in the recorded interview.
Who is “everybody”? I think it means Serino was told to NOT charge George and to be prepared to explain how everything just naturally led to the “self-defense” conclusion. So since Serino had already said to George, “You know you’re gonna come under a lot of scrutiny,” means that Serino realized there was going to have to be SOME story handed out about what took place.
Yes Malisha. That’s pretty much what I was thonking. Thanks for the confirmation
Just now I phoned Lieutenant Jim McAuliffe, the FOIA officer of the Sanford Police. I had sent him a FOIA request over ten days ago to get:
(a) information on all the crimes alleged to have occurred in RTL as reported by the Miami Herald in March 2012;
(b) information on all complaints received by the SPD about George Zimmerman from RTL residents prior to 2/26/2012; and
(c) specifically, full details concerning the “shooting” alleged to have occurred in RTL between 1/1/2011 and 2/26/2012 as reported in more than six news reports in March 2012, but then apparently receiving no more attention from either press or public after that date.
In my letter, sent by e-mail and snail mail on 10/23/2012, I said I would ticket forward the request by ten (10) days. I offered to pay the charges for this information. I received no response and no request for payment.
McAuliffe and Myers will try to stone-wall me. We shall see.
I’m going to read this again after coffee. I’m not awake yet. But your last paragraph, I’m sure by that point, after all the “excitement” and questioning over and over, he was getting tired. I don’t think any of that would be unexpected in anyone being questioned over a period of time. I thought that is why they do that, kind of to wear you down.
Wow, a thought just occurred to me about how Serino’s position in this travesty might have shaped up.
1. He gets a call from the cops who tell him that there’s a guy who got attacked in RTL and he defended himself and shot his attacker, and he’s now in custody and they need him to be interviewed by the homicide detective before they can let him go. They add that he called 911 (just a “little white lie” there because he DID call NEN) before being attacked, and he did say that the guy he was saw “coming to check me out” and was “up to no good.”
2. So naturally, when he hears that the guy was hurt badly, had blood all over him, but lived, and the “other guy” is dead, he forms a picture in his mind of the “other guy” who, while intending to kill someone he has already checked out, is obviously not going to be particularly panicked and screaming because this “other guy” was supposedly (a) checking out his prey and then (b) attacking with intent to kill.
3. Before interviewing George, Serino goes to the crime scene and speaks to a few people. Among them, he encounters a witness who is beside herself with grief and shock, because she heard screams and did not help “the person” or “the kid” who was killed. Remember, Serino still has in his mind the false picture given to him, of George being stalked and attacked, but the attacker didn’t realize he was carrying so the tables turned and George prevailed. He imagines that the “911 call” that the police referred to was George calling in shortly before the attack, saying, “hey there’s some guy checking me out; he looks like he’s up to no good [that quaint old-fashioned language George uses]” and then bam, smash, help help help help help help help help help help help help help help pop. That’s the picture in Serino’s mind.
4. Serino gets back to the station house.
5. Singleton says to him, this might not be as simple as it looks. They interview George. The little scratches on him don’t go with the story he has told. Serino calls them “capillary cuts, or lacerations, not coinciding with” a death-dealing beat-down.
6. THEN Serino hears the NEN call. Then the penny drops. But when he comforted the witness, he had the following picture in mind, thanks to the police on the scene, who included T Smith, who was George’s buddy: Some thug went to the RTL neighborhood. He checked out a NW guy but the NW guy was on guard so he called in BEFORE the attack. Almost immediately he was attacked but he defended himself successfully. We don’t know who the thug was. I’m sure we will find out that the thug has a record as long as my arm. This time he chose the wrong victim, is all.
7. This even matches with Serino saying, at a later point, “His name was Trayvon Benjamin Martin. No thug.” When he said, “If he was a punk, two thumbs up,” I think he meant, “If the story went down the way I heard it when I arrived on the scene and first caught this case, two thumbs up.” That would have meant, “If it HAD been self-defense, two thumbs up.”
Remember how George’s voice changes from very confident during the first interview to less and less confident after the interviews go on for a while? How later on in the process you can’t even hear his answers and his mumbling is getting more pronounced?
excellent theory…
Malisha says:
November 5, 2012 at 7:40 am
“Wow, a thought just occurred to me about how Serino’s position in this travesty might have shaped up.”
~OR~
Serino was an integral link in a calculated effort to see the killer of a young black male walk scott free from his act. Remember, Serino arrived at the scene at 8:10 pm, but twenty minutes later, at 8:30 pm, his boss Chief Billy was logged into the scene as well.
We all remember Billy, don’t we? He was the Chief of Police for Sanford, FL, AND coincidentally, ” the “father figure” for the killer’s best bud Mark Osterman, who guess what, WAS ALSO ON THE SCENE that night! If you listen closely, you can almost hear the wheels a churnin……
Billy: “Serino, you tell everyone you talk to it was George doing all that screaming these witnesses have been talking about.”
Serino: “But Chief I haven’t even interviewed this dude yet”
Billy: “Just do as I said. You can talk to him later tonight after you “investigate” this deal the way I’m telling you to.”
Three Days Later, April 29th:
Serino: “Chief, there’s nothing about this dude’s story that adds up or makes a lick of sense. Listen to this part of my interview where I started questioning him about a timeline:
DS: You told me the only, the reason you got out of your car was to get an address.
GZ: Yes, right.
DS: But you decided to get the address…fresh in the second after you say, “Oh, shit, he’s running.” And then it sounds like you’re running too.
CS: Cause it was fast walking maybe?
GZ: No, it was just windy.
CS: It was. Okay. [continues playing call] Where you at now?
GZ: On Retreat View Circle, I think.
CS: Okay. [continues playing call] What are you doing right now?
GZ: Walking back to my car.
CS: Okay. [continues playing call] Okay, if I time this portion, this is important, okay? I almost gotta reconstruct this. [replays portion of call] When do you start walking back to your car? Time here. You’re going towards Retreat View, right?
GZ: Yeah.
CS: Okay. [continues playing call] Okay, where you at now?
GZ: I think on Retreat View Circle.
CS: Okay. Is that 2:41? Okay. [continues playing call] Okay, you’re walking back to your car?
GZ: Yes, sir, [continues playing call] I’m thumping the damn flashlight. [can’t understand]
[call finishes]
DS: How long is that?
CS: It’s 84 seconds. From the point where you were walking back to your car from Retreat View to Twin Tree basically.
DS: It’s what, about 30 feet.
CS: That’s a minute and…20 seconds. Did you stop at the “T”?
GZ: No, I walked through. I stopped on Retreat View Circle.
CS: That’s where you were standing?
GZ: Yes, sir.
CS: Okay. But you didn’t get back into your car?
GZ: No, sir.
CS: Why not?
GZ: I was…
CS: You’re in the rain, you’re getting wet, you’re on the phone.
GZ: Because I was waiting, I, the, I had light there…
CS: So…
GZ: Where I was at and I was trying to hit my flashlight. I didn’t want to walk back through without light.
CS: Okay, a minute and 20 seconds.
GZ: Yes, sir.
CS: You’re in the rain, getting wet. You’ve wrote this guy off basically, you’re gonna meet the police. Okay, you see where the obstacle is here?
GZ: Yes, sir.
CS: Okay, I want you to think about that. I am speaking for you, for everybody. I’m trying to, I’m trying to do the best I can here.
Chief, see that part about [2:41} and he had left Retreat View Circle and was walking back to his car? The call started at 7:09:34 pm. 2:41 later would only be 7:12:15 pm AND it’s only 97 feet from RVC to where he’s saying this kid attacked him!”
Billy: “OK, so what’s your point?”
Serino: “Chief, 97 feet should only take less than 30 seconds to walk! This guy didn’t even get off the phone with the NEN dispatcher until 7:13:41 pm! What are we supposed to do about that?”
Billy: “Hmmm, that is a problem……BUT we can fix that! Here’s what you do.
FIRST, drop all questioning about the timeline of events. Don’t ever ask him another word about when anything related to this deal happened.
SECOND, put out a false timeline whacking off the first 1:38 of the call. Then we’ll tell everyone there’s only about a minute we can’t figure out.”
I don’t know if this went down that way or not, but one thing we do know. That is EXACTLY what Detective Chris Serino did and, but for a grieving family and an outraged nation, it would have worked.
Excellent work, Papa.
Serino has some splainin’ to do, doesn’t he?
Amazing!!! Scary amazing.
Wow, I can actually see that. What a gift you have LLMPapa!!
Too bad LLMPapa is not officially on the prosecution team.
YES! He should be in charge of all videos of inconsistent data and present for the jury.
He can still be called as an expert witness.
Expert in GZ language of lies.
: ^ ))
Can’t believe how corrupt this police department is. What is in it for them?
Can Billy Lee or Serino be charged with any sort of crime for obstructing justice?
Thank heaven for modern technology that is leading to the undoing of these horrible lying people with no regard for human life, no longer just limited to GZ.
Papa, I’m confused. Where is a link to the actual timeline of the call?
@Brown, Language of Lies. Sounds like a name for a new video!
YES! New title for Papa
diaryofasuccessfulloser says:
November 5, 2012 at 12:20 pm
Papa, I’m confused. Where is a link to the actual timeline of the call?
This is the recording I use for any questions regarding the NEN call’s timeline. It shows running clock time and the YouTube counter gives run time.
By Zimmerman contradicting what he excitedly uttered on his NEN call that night, he is simply ruining his credibility in court.
You hear “Shit, he’s running” which is evidence that George was stalking this kid and he did not want him to get away, hence yelling that. Then you hear the car door open and wind noise and George admitting that he was following the kid. Since Trayvon was running and George was following, George would have to be running to follow, hence George was now chasing the kid.
Now George is changing this and changing that, it is just going to end up that anything he says cant be trusted or believable, because if he cant be truthful and always changing his “truth”, he is not believable or telling the truth because the truth never changes.
There are going to be phone records for both the police and George that night and that cant be easily hidden and trying to hide it would be easily found
Listening to that makes me so mad. It is so obvious he didn’t stop running when told to and he didn’t go back to his truck and he was not going to go back to his house and wait (like a normal person) or the mailbox to talk with the police because he had no intention of being there. He was going to continue his chase and – have the officer call him. Yeah. grrrrrrrr
See, my problem with presuming that Serino knew, even before his first interview of George, that there was a cover-up going on, is this: we have to assess people at the time they do things with the information they have available to them AT THAT TIME. The best way for people to execute a cover-up is by telling people JUST as much as they have to know about what is going on, and not any MORE. Nobody had to tell Serino, between 8:10 pm on 2/26/2012 and 12:05 a.m. 2/27/2012, that they had decided to cover up anything; they had no real idea that Serino would UNCOVER anything. They didn’t think ahead of Serino; Serino is smarter than they are.
He knew what they told him and he presumed it to be essentially true. He says Ayala told him what was “known” — and he believed that whatever he was being told WAS “known.”
I’ll think on this some more, though. Thanks for all these pointers.
And the “penny” went into a nose-dive once SPD talked to Martin and Sabryna and realized the “thug” with a record “as long as your arm”, was a well mannered teenager… a moma´s boy… a kid with dreams! Or as Serino told GZ “a good kid, a kid with a future, a kid with parents that care”. I was touched when he said this because it showed he too cared, and yes, he sure made mistakes, or maybe he was trapped by those above, but at the time he sounded genuinely concerned for the terrible waste a promising young whatever colour life.
I agree. I am not sure if Serino is a totally good cop but I think he realized that George and some of the other officers were bamboozling him. Listening to the evidence it is clear George is lying. Perhaps some of the other officers realized later on too, because there is no way people are going to believe George was screaming considering the audio and the evidence by way of process of elimination, it is not George and in fact he is heard saying things to Trayvon while he screams for help.
I think Bernie needs to start objecting Omara’s constant use of George Zimmerman hearsay.
I believe Serino was acting upon initial information provided him by the police first on scene. (Just another point of interest – Smith arrived 20 SECONDS after the shot was fired) emerging from around the corner of the cut-through). I believe Serino was under the impression that GZ was standing his ground initially. He seems to have changed his mind very quickly once he heard all the lies and visited the scene. Officer Smith did not even know the colour of Trayvon’s pants. He identified them the same way GZ did. Strange since he was at the scene. He also did not administer aid to Trayvon. The whole written and spoken reports from Smith echo Ostermans and Zimmermans and all stink to high heaven. I believe flashlight guy is Osterman. I also believe Osterman used his history with SPD to influence the decision made by Billy Lee and Wolfinger to have Zimmerman walk.
I agree with you on all these points. Since the beginning it has astonished me that anyone had a hard time describing the color of Trayvon Martin’s khakis. WTF? I think the description of Trayvon’s pants went directly from Osterman’s mouth to Zimmerman’s ear, skipped his brain (there being so small a probability that it would hit it pursuant to the “needle in a haystack theory”) and went out HIS mouth into Smith’s ears, doing yet another quick skip (unlike Trayvon Martin’s running style) and out Smith’s pen.
Which brings me to another question. Why haven’t we seen forensics from the respective shoes and pants of the shooter and his victim?
Smith drove into R@TL 20 seconds post-shot, and was mentioned by one of the callers to 911.He drove around for another minute before arriving at 1231 RVC.
My vote´s for Osterman too influencing and advising… an enabler and facilitator all in one gun totting, big mouth friend!
Oh, by the way, I voted for Jill Stein, I won’t ever vote for the bastards of the duoppoly party ever again.
Ha, Professor, you missed this one:
BDRL: Did the 911-tape capture a voice screaming for help during the struggle between the defendant and the victim – Mr. Martin?
Serino: Yes.
BDRL: Did you play the recorded screams to the defendant?
Serino: Yes.
BDRL: Did you ask the defendant if he recognized the voice screaming for help as his voice?
Serino: Yes.
BDRL: What was the defendant’s answer?
Serino: The defendant said that the voice recorded on the 911-tape screaming for help is not his voice.
BDRL: The defendant said that the recorded voice screaming for help is NOT his?!
Serino: Yes. The defendant added that the recorded voice does not even come close to resembling his voice.
BDRL: No further questions, your Honor.
(Professor, you sure know how to create excellent court-room drama. If I were you, I would seriously be thinking ‘Hollywood’ after this case. I think your power of imagination is awesome).
I wouldnt mind playing a lawyer in the movie. But they’d have to change the state prosecutor to a philipino or latino person for me to play Bernie and the name can be kept =)
If yall want to read about a case that changed over the years and a second autopsy needed, check the Franklin Pullian case. His murder was staged as a car accident, but after thorough look through, it was found that they figured it out after looking at crime scene photos and the second autopsy done after being exhumed. It turns out the first autopsy was purposely fubbed to cover a crime
If they do another autopsy and more forensics I hope it includes:
1. Tests for peri-mortem bruising, stress damage, or injury to muscles, tendons or ligaments of wrists, elbows, shoulders and fingers
2. Dna testing on the back of Trayvon´s sleeves, especially elbows and any parts of his hoodie that was not already tested
3. If they still have them more testing on GZ´s clothing and shoes.
I am not aware that anyone has requested another autopsy and I doubt Judge Nelson would order the exhumed for that purpose.
As far as I can tell, the DNA testing has already covered the backs of the sleeves. The analyst dabs the entire area of interest with one or more moistened swabs as needed and then soaks the swab in sterilized water overnight and spins off the liquid leaving the residue for DNA extraction, amplification and identification.
PCR testing is extremely sensitive as it can detect, amplify and type only a few cells.
Thanks prof. Me… Forensics: 0… and I´m not holding my breath. I did once ask about the elbows (I toyed with the idea Trayvon elbowed GZ in the nose trying to escape), and I recall someone here replied they had not been tested.
To return to peri-mortem bruising/injuries of joint tissues, from web trawling I learned (apart from a new word, peri-mortem or perimortem !) there are tests but they have to wait a week. I don´t know if they did these but if they didn´t they should as most concur GZ used some kind of lock on Trayvon which just might debunk his and the zimmerbots claims of self-defence definitively… one lives in hope!
I did not see any indication in the autopsy report that the Assistant Medical Examiner discovered or even checked for peri-mortem injuries of the sort you describe. I also don’t know if they could be detected anymore, if the body were exhumed to check.
The party seeking an order to exhume the body for further testing would bear a heavy burden of persuasion to establish a necessity, including a reason to believe that something important to the outcome of the case would likely be found, to justify granting the order.
I suspect that is unlikely, given the amount of time that has passed and the other evidence in the case.
Does the family need a court order to do this? If the Fulton/Martin family wanted an exhumation couldn’t they seek this on their own, after all its their child.
100% with you on the first part would also include forearms. I would get the best person to do a second autsopy from outside of Florida. I wouldn’t trust anybody local from Sandford Fl. I have often thought about what a second independent autsopy would tell us.
IMO, if the prosecutors find that proving GZ used a take-down maneuver on Trayvon is important, they can raise that issue by questioning why GZ said he spread out Trayvon’s arms after shooting him, when Trayvon’s body was found with his arms underneath. The prosecution can introduce this fact in opening statement with what the evidence shows. On anticipating an objection from the defense, the prosecution can say it’s a reasonable argument that GZ gave that story as a cover in the event his DNA appeared on Trayvon’s wrists.
In the event of an objection and sustaining, the prosecution can then proceed to present the jury where blood was found on the defendant and victim, without any explanation by the defendant supporting how that happened since his story is that the victim fell face down, and the defendant claiming that he mounted the victim’s back when in fact, the victim’s bleeding wound was in his chest.
@Brown: I agree entirely, but if you read the whole thread it appears it may not be feasible at least to prove tissue damage around joints after all this time.
I agree a second autopsy doesnt seem necessary. I feel they did cover everything already but they could go for a second in case to check for things that were not there before. I have read about Virtopsy, which is where they take a 3d file of the whole body at death, so they could look through the file for future reference but I am not sure if FDLE has the technology yet. The virtopsy is good to use with the exhume so they have a picture reference for what they had before. Pullian is a good example how their thoughts could change with pieces of evidence. At the beginning of the Trayvon Martin murder, they may have been going off the hearsay of George Zimmerman at first, which was told to Smith first, and then he passed it off to the other officers, but after deep investigation, it turned out they were bamboozled by George and Smith.
Yes, their being “bamboozled” by George fits about right albeit IMO most likely aided by Osterman.
I agree, they probably won´t do 2nd autopsy and as Prof notes, it may not be possible to determine perimortem injuries after all this time anyway, but an armlock would have shown muscle, tendon, o ligament strain (enzymes that continue after death), if not outright damage by the agonising sound of Trayvon´s final screams so if GZ should walk it will be so regrettable they did not.
They could check the bones for fractures consistent with a wrist lock. However, it does not really matter because George owned himself by saying that and they cant dispute that fact LOL Seriously though, the bullet holes and forensics done on Trayvon and the ballistics mean that George would have had to grip Trayvon to shoot him. Add the screams and it is obvious George was holding him at gun point.
I´m sure forensics, however inept, would have noticed broken bones if existent, so if they were to do 2nd autopsy, which I doubt, they´d do better testing for muscle, tendon or ligament strain, stress or damage. On the other hand, “restraining” techniques generally do what exactly what they say on the tin, i.e. “restrain”, and although some can, cause a fracture, it is not common merely because the subject being “restrained” ceases to struggle and gives in under the excruciating pain before a fracture occurs.
I am not a lawyer but I act as independent advocate, and litigation friend, for adults with learning disabilities (“retarded” in the US or the least derrogatory, “people with different abilities” as they are referred to in India) and my experience has been that in law nothing is as clear cut as it you think and foresight and preparation make the best argument.
Sorry the many typos, it´s been a long day! Hope it´s still understandable.
Brown
According to the Pullian case, there needs to be various court orders done for the exhume to take place and I believe part of it they do ask the family how they feel about it, but dont take my word on it as I am basing it on what I read on the Pullian case and the case is old so statutes may have changed by then
Okie dokie
I agree and I feel the investigation was fairly good once the hands have passed to Corey and I also feel they should continually plan to see all angles the defense will use so they can debate and win and prove
Yes, my thoughts entirely.
@Jun or anyone
who is the witness who said he or she heard “I’ve got a gun I’ve got a gun?
Why was the 911 tape held for 3 weeks before being made public? Normally 911 tapes are disclosed days after an incident occurs. Seems as if the SPD had a dilemma as to who would believe that the screamer was George Zimmerman.
“Chief Lee had resisted Crump’s requests to make the tapes public, but he was overruled by Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett. On the night of Friday, March 16, Triplett invited Trayvon Martin’s parents and their legal team into his office to listen to each of the calls, which he played on his computer.”
“When we got to the cries for help, that was when Sybrina burst into tears,” recalled Jackson. “She said, ‘That’s Trayvon. That’s our son.’ She ran out of the room crying.” (Zimmerman’s brother, Robert, would later swear the voice belonged to George.)
“The mayor himself started to cry,” Jackson said. “Everybody in the room was in tears.” Mayor Triplett overruled his police chief and distributed disks of the phone calls to the media that night. They have been broadcast unceasingly ever since.
IMO…the SPD knew these tapes were very damning for George Zimmerman and the demand for his arrest would be forthcoming.
So very sad!
In the video Xena posts above from Politics Nation,
a Eugene O´Donnel, former New York detective and prosecutor, tells of a Chief Timpany of Miami warning “A trick or treater is going to get shot” when SYG law was enacted… So very sad!
Just like that Japanese high school student in Louisiana on Halloween a few years ago.
That’s because the SPD refused to release any reports and 911 call recordings to Trayvon’s parents. That in fact, Serino TOLD Tracy GZ’s side of the story and that GZ said that he was screaming for help, and that GZ’s background was “squeaky clean.” Tracy evidently realized that the SPD was going to stand on a premise of “this is how we see it so just go on and bury your son. You have no power here.” and he obtained legal counsel, Benjamin Crump.
@Fed-up taxpayer:
Yes, so sad too… never to be forgotten either. From the news at the time over here I remember the Japanese were collectively in state of shock being a country where almost nobody carries arms.
T. Smith was complicit at least 99% in the cover-up if not in more than the cover-up. My guess for which Florida “state actors” will end up defendants in the federal civil rights action (whether criminal or civil in nature) includes, but is not limited to:
Then Chief Billy Lee
Then State’s Attorney Norman Wolfinger
Officer T. Smith
possibly Ayala
possibly the officers who brought George in that evening, especially the one who “frisked” him without gloves on
Around 7:40 in the following vid is a showing for how Ofc. T. Smith’s report is inconsistent with a report by Chief Bill Lee.
That was an amazing video.
Kinda makes one wonder why Smith said one thing and Lee said another.
The Reverend Wright always makes sense when he says anything…!
It is a sad thing that a certain little punk asshole, didn’t stick with his reverend/teacher and real good spiritual leader… , but went instead with monster Wall St.
I am extremely proud of Sharpton for his excellent work in this case.
Yes, and that is what the Zimmerthugs are mad about and argue it as Black racists conspiring to have GZ arrested. They forget that many others on MSNBC reported, including Lawrence O’Donnell interviewing Joe Oliver.
I get an error message when i try and go to youtube link….
Brown, I’ve learned that even when I include the URL link, that it embeds the video. Go to YouTube and search for “Trayvon Martin Killing: Retracing Racist George Zimmerman’s Lynching Mission” It’s on the channel for “Politicalarticles.”
Princess6, you say that Jeralyn refers to the witness as “the hysterical teacher.” Interesting. It seems to me that the “hysterical teacher witness” was just about the only one whose responses that evening were perfectly human and natural. You’re just going along minding your own business and you suddenly hear a child screaming for help, wailing, yelping, begging for his life and POP you hear him get killed IN YOUR BACKYARD? You’re not a soldier in Afghanistan prepared for death and destruction. You’re not a sociopath who thinks things like, “well, as long as he was a wannabe thug I guess it’s two thumbs up.” You’re not a racist who thinks, “one fewer of THEM around, Yeah Baby!” You’re not a calloused and crafty human being thinking, “as long as my insurance premiums don’t go up and I don’t lose my house.” You’re just a person who would have saved that kid if you could have, and you weren’t one of those heroes on TV who has superpowers cleverly crafted into your genes so that whenever adrenalin hits, you turn into double-oh-seven with a blackbelt and the uncanny ability to tell exactly what kind of situation you’re seeing/hearing when there is too little data for anybody but the screenwriter to figure out.
The “hysterical teacher” is the highest form of human life in Sanford, Florida. She actually CARES about others to whom she does not owe anything in particular. She actually would PROTECT the next guy in a line when tragedy struck. She actually would bring the airplane down, if she could, when they were headed for the White House. She would help everybody out if she were trapped with them in the sewers under the Warsaw Ghetto with the Nazi tanks thundering on the street above. Thank God there are still people like her around.
Although she is hysterical, she is perfectly normal and honest. I think most people are going to be shocked at somebody being killed, especially a kid, whom was heard screaming and you are standing in front of the killer. Even Jeremy was a lil bugged out at Zimmerman acting like killing a kid who was screaming was nothing. In fact, I think it is one of the reasons some of the witnesses were scared to say anything at first because they had some nutjob around them named George. Another crazy thing is her testimony puts even further holes in George’s story because she says it is a nice neighborhood where rarely bad things happen, so George’s rampant burglary neighborhood theory is further put to rest. In fact many of the witnesses, except witness 11, attest that there was barely any break ins or they did not notice any break ins in the neighborhood.
The police reports in discovery docs provide that the majority of the “break-ins” were not break-ins in the sense that they were unforced entry. Residents left a window open or a patio door unlocked. Now, who could possibly walk throughout that gated community without looking suspicious, taking note of open windows and unlocked patio doors?
Zimmerman was all over that community patrolling for about 6 mths and never saw a suspicious person casing houses with his own eyes until 2/2/12 in front of Taaffe’s house. This is one reason why it is still in my gut that GZ used NW as a cover-up for crimes where he was the ring-leader — mostly jewelry, that he possibly sold via ebay and shipped out from Osterman’s house — thus, the reason for spending $135 at the U.S. Postal Service while he was hiding out at Osterman’s.
The feds can investigate to see what $135.00 worth of business GZ conducted at the post office in Lake Mary that might lead to some interstate charges for selling stolen property. I hope that is part of their ongoing investigation.
I don’t think they noticed break-ins. What some of them DID notice was an obsessed deranged armed stalker, whom they feared and about whom at least one of them made complaints to the police. Damn!
Xena
The burglary ring by George is a long shot as I have not seen evidence of it but considering the witnesses statements, I dont believe the neighborhood is a very dangerous neighborhood that is crime ridden and I am guessing there is the rare theft here and there. I believe George’s lone murder of the boy was the only thing that raised the crime rate there because it rarely has these occurrences. I remember witness 18’s statement that it was a nice neighborhood and these things just dont happen. I forgot the other witness but she answered that she never noticed any break ins, as well as a few other witnesses. The only witness I noticed who brought up break ins was witness 11 and she is on HOA so she may have been directly affected by George’s campaign. If George is burglarizing than that is huge but I dont know.
The neighborhood was not dangerous and in fact, some residents, including Taaffe, felt secure to leave home without locking their patio doors and with windows up. The burglaries were not significant, and the police found that the majority were unforced — whoever stole came through an unlocked door or window. The main items stolen consisted of jewelry.
On his MySpace page, GZ made references about getting his boys to do things, serve time in jail, and not tell on him. GZ is a petty gangster; a petty gangster with a gang tattoo.
In Florida, GZ decided to “mentor” Black teens. Yet, he doesn’t know how to communicate with a teen to de-escalate a situation and actually mentors the same racial group that he also profiles as “assholes” and “f’ing punks.” It’s my gut feeling that he was recruiting and not mentoring.
Xena~ as much as I agree with you, I’m afraid a “gut feeling” won’t stand up in court. When we get him put away for murder, that will take care of his little gang theft ring.
________________________________
Cielo62, I agree. The NW as a cover-up has nothing to do with the factors of 2nd degree murder. IMO, it addresses what type of person GZ is; i.e., a petty gangster and wannabe gang leader. Just look at how he was able to have others act as surrogates in the media before he was charged. His “gang” like his “boys” in Virginia, according to his MySpace page, was suppose to have his back.
GZ would also expect the SPD to have his back. O’Mara is expressing that now by arguing GZ should not have been charged with committing any crime.
I am guessing they have screen shots of the myspace? I heard GZ scrubbed his myspace
http://www.myspace.com/onlytobekingagain
that is the proper reaction of a empathic human being
one should be hysterical
one should not be calmly asking the murderer what caliber ammo he was using
@Malisha: “The “hysterical teacher” is the highest form of human life in Sanford, Florida. She actually CARES about others to whom she does not owe anything in particular”.
Precious!
>^..^< padding slowly behind
HA! LLMPapa, GZ makes himself look like a fool.
George gave 3 excited utterances when the incident he started began turning sour when Trayvon noticed and started running and headed down the back pathway home before being cut off by George and then attacked, terrorized, and killed by George.
“Shit, He’s running”
“He ran”
“He’s running down the street”
And he admitted to stalking and pursuing and chasing this kid that was running away from him…
Seriously, how does anyone, including MOM and RZ Jr, not want to slap GZ upside the back of his head for his stupidity?
He is stupid – too bad he didn’t read this first. But having a magistrate for a father, and taken criminal justice, you’d think he’d know this – all the more reason to think – well, you know.
http://craigatkinsonlaw.com/uncategorized/top-five-rules-to-abide-by-if-you-have-been-accused-of-a-crime/
Rachael, I went to the link you provided and although it addresses domestic violence situations, the lawyer is spot-on about ATTITUDE! Too often in domestic violence situations, defendants assume that because the person seeking an order of protection is pro se that they can convince, humiliate, or be more credible to witnesses, cops and the judge. WRONG! That same attitude is reflected when the victim is dead.
GZ gave himself a huge amount of confidence because Trayvon was dead. There was no one to question the truth of his words, right? His wordswould have to be believed so he could talk to his heart’s content, right? WRONG! Yep. You’re right — GZ is stupid — but it’s all God’s plan.
After reading that Rachel, Omara trying to use the cops in his favor is probably going to backfire because the cops want to save their own butt over George.
It also doesnt help George, not that I would want to, that he is surrounded by idiots. The story they coached and concocted was so asinine and silly, it does not make any sense, as well, it is the complete opposite of what witnesses have stated happened. Who is going to believe that address search nonsense?
George allegedly stopped chasing this kid and decided to look for an address on the other side of the street in the opposite direction of his car because he was going to go back to his car before being attacked – that is the Zimmerman story, with rampant inconsistencies even with that story numerous times. I am starting to think when George’s dad attempted to coach a story, he was unaware that George had made comments on his police phone call.
GZ told Singleton that he was on RTV while talking with dispatch. Funny that he didn’t give Sean the address, right? Also funny that we didn’t hear Trayvon appear out of nowhere and ask GZ if he had a problem.
It was LLMPapa’s video that made me think of it – being on Hannity and all. Is there ANY one of these 5 “rules” he did not break?
A further explanation and reasoning is given each of these, but I left #4 just for kicks.
1. If you are in custody, stay off the phones!
2. If there is a no contact order (i.e. protection order, or restraining order) in place, do not contact the protected party!
3. Do not attempt to talk ANY witnesses about their testimony, leave that to your attorney.
4. Do not speak with ANYONE about your case, except of course your attorney.
Speaking to anyone about your case only creates more witnesses for the State. It doesn’t create more witnesses for you, because consistent statements are not admissible as evidence at a trial. So you can tell 100 people the same story that you are going to tell at trial, but tough luck, you can’t bring them to court to tell the jury that. Inconsistent statements are allowed though, and so if a witness claims you told them something different than you are saying to the jury now, that can be used against you at court to impeach your testimony. You may say, ” but that is hearsay!” Unfortunately, all of a defendant’s hearsay statements are considered an exception to the rule. So the hearsay rule isn’t going to keep those statements out.
5. Speak to a criminal defense attorney BEFORE speaking to any law enforcement official or prosecutor about your case.
http://craigatkinsonlaw.com/uncategorized/top-five-rules-to-abide-by-if-you-have-been-accused-of-a-crime/
How could he be so STUPID??!!! How could his friends, family and lawyers let him be so STUPID??!!!
I mean it is good that he was or he might have just gotten away, but the thought that he could do all this on his own (talking to police officers, trying to talk with the prosecutor, Hannity, Osterman, etc.) is the very reason it makes it more than a reasonable doubt to me that he went after a kid and shot him on his own too – especially after being told not to (which he totally understood – IN WRITING – in his statement).
Everything he did that night was stupid. Everything he did after that was stupid. And regardless of the outcome, he will always be a stupid, stupid man.
HA!!! How can his BFF Osterman, who has LE experience, be so stupid to write a book about “George said.” LOL!!!
Oh, btw, magistrate judges in Virginia are not required to have a J.D. so Papa Zim does not have the education and experience of a judge resolving controversies.
Rach, Zimmerman was NOT stupid at all. He played it very smart and almost got away with murder! But like every mother, Ms. Fulton would lay down her own life for her son. Her presence makes Zimmerman tremble. Her sorrow galvanized the public. That’s why Zimmerman is in trouble. If you remove Ms. Fulton from the equation, Zimmerman would be a free man today, unknown to any of us. It’s heart-wrenching to watch a woman (of any race) grief for her child. When Ms. Fulton in deep grief (and one can see through her eyes) said: ‘my son was hunted down and shot….’, the public was enraged and took to the streets. That’s the kind of girl-power I can’t understand why only women get to wield. That’s my take on you post.
Well then SearchingMind, I will just have to disagree with you. GZ knew he shot and killed a teen. He told them in his 911 call Trayvon was in his late teens. Did he really think he could shoot someone, ESPECIALLY a teenager, and think he could just walk away? That the kid’s parents, his mother, would just accept his story for shooting and killing their unarmed child and let him walk on just his say-so? Regardless of his guilt or innocence, do you really think ANY parent would not want what Trayvon’s parents wanted – to have him arrested and a thorough investigation?
If GZ thought otherwise, thought he could just shoot a kid, tell a story, and just walk away – and yes, he “almost” did – then he indeed is even more stupid than I gave him credit for – on top of not lawyering up and talking to people LONG after the case was underway.
Uh…slap his head? I do not want to slap his head.
Never occurred to me to want to slap his head.
There are about 92 or 93 other things I wanted to do…but not slap his head, no. I guess I’m real slow to anger. 😀
It comes down to this……….
Officer “Mr. Zimmerman, you have the right to remain silent….”
Z “…..umm……Okay, but why would I do that……I have so many versions to tell you….”
Rule #4…….All I can say is …….what a dipshit, but, hey…..we’re damn glad of it.
I can’t make the video play. Is it a new one by LLMPapa?
Yes, it’s a new one just recently uploaded. I clicked it here and it played okay. Here’s a direct URL. I hope it appears rather than embed the video. 🙂
LLMPapa, your vids often inspire me. The more I listen again, the more I realized what I’ve missed. In his re-enactment, GZ said that he first saw Trayvon standing beside a house that has since been identified as Taaffe’s residence. GZ said that when he got through to NEN, he pulled up and parked at the clubhouse. In his NEN call however, he says;
“Hey. We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy, uh, it’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.”
Why would GZ give dispatch the address for the clubhouse if he actually saw Trayvon at Taaffe’s house and sincerely believed that Trayvon was scoping it out? Why not give Taaffe’s address instead? Certainly, anyone walking by the clubhouse would not be suspicious on the basis of looking at houses.
That’s a good point.
there are just so many f***ing holes in this guy’s story
Indeed. IMO, they question whether GZ planned or imagined how he wanted things to happen. Maybe he wanted to bring Trayvon to him and followed him in such manner in effort to antagonize and have Trayvon confront him at his vehicle. GZ was very angry when Trayvon ran.
I would love to see Sean testify. GZ said in the beginning of the call that there had been some break-in’s in his neighborhood. Sean evidently detected something in GZ’s story that caused him to question GZ’s credibility; i.e., he subsequently asked GZ, “Do you live in the area?”
You know what I noticed, Omara’s whole defense of Zimmerman is based on hearsay, even at the bond hearings. George lied about his money and passport, and Omara offered George’s statements that he was young, confused, betrayed. His whole motion to recuse Lester was based on all hearsay from George Zimmerman.
Two bloggers may have accomplished their plan by success in clearing what the defense calls “chaff,” (others). Looks ready to become socio vs socio, he the prosecutor, she defense. The only two actors in a plan of making his blog, a courtroom scene. One would not dare go there and step on the defenses presentation as the prosecutor is a pendulum, of mind to humiliate anyone by dismissal if not satisfying the defense, as the defense shall have its way at the expense of the prosecutor? Gawd, this is confusing!! From the horses mouth itself, the defense travels to all the blogs, newspapers and media to pick pieces from professional information and public comment, cleverly piecing all together, adding a pinch of giggling quips and humble remarks, ready to barge in for a professional argument. Not before they have cozied up practicing their lines “behind the scenes”, on how to fool the public. “Been doing it for years!” Somehow the defense always manages to make the prosecution look like an ass, uh, donkey! (As in a CA blog video) Why would they not want judges or witnesses to participate? Well, from watching real trials, when an attorney has the floor all attention is on them. Not trying to be unkind to real attorneys, only an illustration in “how to get blog attention”!!
Does, everyone like soap opera drama, am I the only holdout?
…….. IMHO……
THREAT TO OUR CHILDREN IS RAMPANT AND TERRORIZING!!
They should not be swept into the dust by any plan in any attempt to gain attention for ourselves.
PROFESSOR LEATHERMAN and WIFE CRANE, for weathering the storm of criticism and accusations, giving us facts, interacting personally and professionally with many peoples interesting views of our justice system, your respect for victim Trayvon Martin in keeping your blog’s social gatherings a very pleasurable and non intimidating experience, THANK YOU!
Professor, somehow I forgot to address the question you actually asked, about whether Serino’s opinion testimony about who screamed should be permitted or excluded. Let me go to it first as you set it down:
==================================
Let us assume that Serino is the witness and O’Mara is cross examining him.
Q: When you interviewed the witness Mary Cutcher, you told her that the person whom she heard screaming for help was the person who survived, didn’t you?
BDLR: Objection, Your Honor. First of all, this goes beyond the scope of direct. Also, Mr. O’Mara is asking the witness to leapfrog over the rules of evidence and offer an opinion about something he is not qualified to opine on.
OM: Your Honor may I respond?
Judge: Go ahead.
OM: I am asking him about a fact, not an opinion, I’m asking him if he told Mary Cutcher that the voice emitting screams was George Zimmerman’s voice.
BDLR: Your Honor this witness was not on the scene at the time the screams were emitted, so he is not competent to testify about that and also it is irrelevant whether or not he told a witness they were the defendant’s screams. He would have no way of knowing whose screams they were. At the most, the witness can admit that he told Ms. Cutcher something he should not have told her and surely did not know, but that cannot be offered for the truth of the matter stated.
OM: I am not offering it for the truth of the matter stated, Your Honor.
Judge: What are you offering it for?
OM: State of mind, Your Honor. To show that Officer Serino believed George when George said that he was the one screaming.
Judge: The court does not need to know Officer Serino’s state of mind, Mr. O’Mara. You would be suggesting that Officer Serino’s belief in something he did not personally see or hear was relevant to this proceeding but it is not. The jury will hear the evidence and the jury will come to its own conclusion about whose screams are on the tape; they do not need to consider Officer Serino’s conclusions, if any, on that issue because he is not qualified as a voice analyst.
OM: But Your Honor, I think at this point in time everybody agrees that there is no dispute that my client was screaming help help because his nose was broken and he was about to lose consciousness from headbashing…
Judge: Objection Sustained. Next question.
I never thought of that but yes it can be objected because Serino’s opinion is not evidence because he was not at the scene during the incident and has not gone over the incident at the time in depth so his witness account is meaningless and is not admissible as evidence…
What Serino told Cutcher is in fact hearsay. What Cutcher will attest to what she witnessed is not hearsay.
“OM: But Your Honor, I think at this point in time everybody agrees that there is no dispute that my client was screaming help help because his nose was broken and he was about to lose consciousness from headbashing…”
This “it is undisputed my clients nose was broken, was the one screaming and the injuries prove he was attacked” will be stated by Moron O’ Mara so many times we need an over / under on this.
I think I’ll make a recording for the prosecution that just says
“Objection your honor” so they can save their voices for the argument. I’ll start the over / under at……….275.
every once in a while when I will read threads about these intellectual aspects of this case, all I can muster in kind is, “that poor fucking kid…”
every once in a while, aAll I can think about is how scared he must have been with a gun in his face and no knowledge as to why?
he was outmatched in aggression, home field advantage, confidence, determination, will and at last he became aware that he was outmatched in weaponry as well; that must have been when he realized that he was most likely not going to see his family again. His short little life must have flashed before his eyes when he saw that gun, he probably thought of his girlfriend or his mom…all his hope gone.
that is the funny thing about karma… George is actually in no danger except for going to prison but he is scared someone will do to him as he did to Trayvon and many others so he sits in his safehouse paranoid all day
Absolutely. The grandest, most paranoid projection of all.
That is why those screams tear me apart. I swear I hear “mamma” in there, and all I can think of is “If that were my son…” and a break down into tears.
I keep thinking about his final terror and how can his parents possibly have listened to that? God how horrible.
I have sons, it could’ve been mine.
When I read Ziimmerthug comments that blame Sybrina and Tracy for GZ being a killer, all I can think about is the reaping those Zimmerthugs shall receive. All the things they criticize Trayvon’s parents for doing to get attention on the case are things they will not be able to engage when ill comes their way because frankly, they won’t have the intelligence to know how.
I can’t imagine the fear in Trayvon’s young mind that night, but I admit it gives me great pleasure to know that GZ is depleted financially, spiritually, and mentality. Zimmerman is in a living hell of his own doing, and he has pulled his family and wife in with him. It won’t be long before his supporters find themselves at the same door.
Tzar……I think that we all reach that point. I, and others, have expressed those same feelings on past posts. Imagining the terror that Trayvon felt in his last moments, haunts us all.
I know
it’s just that this does not seem as complicated as the defense and zimbots appear to be making it. An unarmed child was humiliated and killed while lawfully minding his own business by an armed bully and yet it had to take nationwide protest just to get him arrested, something is really wrong here.
edit
I know
it’s just that periodically it dawns on me that this is absurdly not as complicated as the defense and zimbots are attempting to make it. An unarmed child was terrorized, humiliated and killed while lawfully minding his own business by an armed bully and yet it had to take nationwide protest just to get him arrested, something is really wrong here.
I dont know why it turned out the way it did, but it took speaking to the Mayor for action to start taking place. After he heard the 911 calls and the George NEN call, he knew something was fishy, and he was not happy with Chief Bill Lee and Norm Wolfinger’s handling of the issue. The Mayor is just human and Mr. Triplette acted in accordance to his duty and as a human on what to do.
Re: Romney and Ryan
Check out their campaign signs; anyone notice how the two R’s look like boobs? As if to say, “Vote for the …”
Okay, they don’t interest me as candidates, but today I read that Tagg and Jennifer Romney had 3 children using a pregnancy surrogate with financial help from Tagg’s parents, with the surrogacy contract allowing the surrogate to abort if her life were endangered, and another clause allowing Tagg and his wife to direct an abortion if the child were chromosomically, genetically, or physiologically abnormal.
http://www.examiner.com/article/tagg-romney-paid-surrogate-for-abortion-rights
Since Romney’s supporters are against abortions,it stands to reason that they would support the right of Tagg Romney to require his pregnancy surrogate to abort, just as Mitt Romney’s long-ago assault on his classmate is overlooked today.
Bizarre, this was in response to the last response in Prof. Leatherman’s prior entry. Don’t know how this got here;maybe I wrote too slow.
I am not worried about witness 18. After listening to her call, I know she is going to be honest in what she states accounts. She has a conscience and she knows what she saw or heard, and no amount of pressure from others will change her thoughts. You can tell by her 911 call she attributes the screams to the young boy who was killed and that he was screaming for help before being silenced by the gunshot to the heart. What concerns me is that some of the cops are idiots. But even then, Serino after investigation figured out that it was at least manslaughter.
Dang it, Professor, could you please remove the [IMG] tags from the url’s above, so the links are clickable? I’m still trying to get the hang of WordPress again, LOL
TIA
[took care of it]
I just reread the transcript of W18’s interview with the state. The things that she has to say simply infuriate me! Not only does “Officer Chris” tell her that the one who was screaming was not the one who died, he also told her that she should have seen GZ; he was beaten badly. What kind of detective leads a witness to this degree??????? Also, it took quite a while for anyone to get an official statement from her after several attempts on her part to contact someone. She also wanted to show them where she saw things. They refused her offer. Oh… my…. goodness!!!!!!!
Cops operate on the basis of witness testimony and/or confessions. It makes it easier for State’s Attorneys to justify why they pursue or don’t pursue prosecution. Some cops imply what a witness saw or heard to see if that witness will change their story and that then becomes the story of record. It’s a quasi method of using the Christian Burial Speech.
In the same manner, Tracy Martin says that when Serino asked if that was Trayvon’s voice, that his report is out of context and Tracy did not answer “no” to that not being Trayvon.
Evidently, Serino thought that there is some importance placed on who was crying for help. What he did not pay attention to however, was the context. According to GZ’s own words, he wanted someone to help HIM restrain Trayvon.
Where’s Patricia? She is good articulating what I hear. “Help me restrain this guy” logically conveys that GZ was trying to restrain Trayvon, IOWs. to keep Trayvon from getting away.
“What happens if he independently decided, or he was ordered to decide that George Zimmerman was the person screaming when he knew that was not true, or unlikely to be true?”
Professor, I believe either the SPD in general, or Serino in particular, may very well need an answer for the question you have posed. You see, Mary Crutcher wasn’t the only witness that this thinly veiled attempt to influence and dissuade was told by Serino.
Take a look at these 3 snips from a notarized statement made by Witness 18 and released on Page 89 of the first doc dump at:
Serino told this witness the same thing, but notice WHEN. This school teacher indicates her interview, and the statement being made by Serino, was 1-2 hours after she went outside and notified a female officer that she saw the incident occur, placing her interview probably in the 10:00-11:00 pm range.
Remember a couple of crucial bits of information. Zimmerman was whisked to SPD within 30 minutes, or so, of the shot being fired, and arrived at their headquarters at 7:52 pm. Serino was notified at 7:40 pm, and was on scene at 8:10 pm.
Serino didn’t talk to or interview George Zimmerman until 12:05 am on 2/27. His interview and claim of the screams belonging to ZImmerman was BEFORE talking to the suspect, and BEFORE he could have heard the recording of the witness 911 call.
Where did his bs about Zimmerman doing the screaming come from? According to more than one witness, he was spreading it up and down the street within a couple of hours of the shot that silenced the screams being fired.
Something’s not right with this picture.
Perhaps Serino got the impression from ofc. Tim Smith, who later put in his report that GZ had said to the EMTs that he called for help – yet the EMTs themselves do not mention this in their interviews.
FWIW, there is a break in between the first two interviews w Singleton and GZ where she went to fetch a map, the one that GZ marked his positions on (including one he quickly amended, just before presenting his “circled the car, hand in waistband” false narrative for the first time). It seems possible that Singleton might have checked in with Serino during that break.
I dont have answers here, but this is worth looking into.
There are suspicious things about the timing of the release of ofc Tim Smith’s report, as mentioned long long ago on Daily Kos. I’ll try to find the link, but it didn’t get much notice at the time.
Read what Law Enforcement Today has to say about Officer Smith’s report
http://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/tag/officer-timothy-smith
also
Did Smith file a false report ?
http://www.democraticunderground.org/1002502425
When asked on the stand by BDLR about any conversation taking place with GZ at the scene – the EMT said No.
This is a good catch Papa, and a good question. Someone had to tell Serino GZ was the screamer.
Serino spoke to 3 witnesses that evening: JonFlashlightW13, TeacherW18, and JohnW6, in that order. So he didn’t get it from John, and it’s unlikely JonFlashlight would have said anything about the screams. But before he spoke to any witnesses, Serino reports “Officer Ayala briefed me as to the known circumstances.” So it would seem Ayala was the source. Interestingly, the only witness Ayala interviewed that evening was JohnW6. So it could have gone from John to Ayala to Serino, who then relayed it to the Teacher.
Which takes us back to the question of how JohnW6’s account of the struggle went from the description of “two guys wrestling” he gave to the 911 operator to the MMA pound-down description that begins with his statement to Ayala. I see only three possibilities;
1. He simply described it poorly in the moment of the 911 call, and was able to be more accurate when talking to the police. (I doubt it.)
2. Before the police began interviews, he had conversations with his neighbors to the north, W11 and W20. At this time they decided for some reason to cover up what they had seen, and present the police would false or incomplete accounts that would help clear George Zimmerman. (Perhaps they knew and liked Zimmerman, and just could not conceive of him committing murder, or perhaps they were worried about the Homeowners Association being sued.
3. Ayala may have discovered that John was impressionable and eager to please, and fed him leading questions to get John’s statement to fit what he had already concluded had happened.
Now, if it’s #3 — if John actually got his story from Ayala rather than vice versa, then where did Ayala get it? Not from Zimmerman directly, since the other witnesses say he did not give any sort of detailed account of events before he was taken to SPD.
OK so here’s something I just noticed looking back at Serino’s report. He says that after getting briefed by Ayala, he “then interviewed Officer T. Smith, who was the first officer. Only one problem. Smith wasn’t there.
Smith escorted Zimmerman to the SPD, and Serino affirms that Zimmerman had already been taken from the scene when he (Serino) arrived.
So if Serino DID interview Smith at that point, it would have to have been by phone or police radio. And where was Smith at that time? Observing Singleton’s interrogation of George Zimmerman at SPD. Which you wouldn’t know from Smith’s original incident report since he neglected to mention it. Instead he wrote, “Once Zimmerman was cleared by the SFD, he was transported to the Sanford Police Department… Zimmerman was turned over to investigations and that was the end of my involvement in the case.” Why Ofc. Smith did you use the 3rd person, when YOU transported GZ to the SPD, and why did you say your involvement in the case ended when GZ was turned over to Singleton, when in fact you observed the whole interview and tended to Zimmerman’s needs for water etc.?
And why SPD and SA Corey, was the section of Smith’s report quoted above redacted in the full police report?
Smith did report that while Zimmerman was sitting in the back of his (Smith’s) cruiser, being attended to by the SFD, he overheard Zimmerman say, “I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me.” The paramedics, however, do not seem to recall Zimmerman saying this.
So, perhaps, in writing his report, Smith was projecting backward in time something he heard Zimmerman say to Singleton. Perhaps, if Serino interviewed Smith by phone or radio, Smith also relayed his “GZ said he was yelling for help” line at that point. And if Serino could be in voice contact with Smith, then Smith could also have been in voice contact with Ayala, telling Ayala the gist of Zimmerman’s version. Which Ayala then could have used to lead John into a confirmation.
But, yep, no matter how you add it up, something’s not right…
That is very interesting.
Excellent post. Also I noticed when he interviewed witness 13 in his car describing what happened. The witness said it looked like it was self defense, but he only comes that to that conclusion because GZ tells him he was getting beat up so he had to shoot. He doesn’t tell him what happened before, like the stalking the the chasing etc.
I will never forget Serino’s voice being caught on tape at the very end of audio number 1 the 3 minute one. he goes grrrr. Like he knew this was going to be bad.
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
on a personal note I hope you got your wits back after Hurricane Sandy. We really need you to be safe and have your input here.
: ^ )
Or, since Smith arrived at the scene 20 seconds after Trayvon Martin was shot, it could have gone like this:
Smith: I heard all that screaming.
Zim: That was me. He was trying to kill me.
Smith: Right.
Smith to Ayala: I heard Zimmerman screaming when the suspect was trying to kill him.
Ayala to Serino: Then we heard screams from Zimmerman while the suspect tried to kill him.
Serino to Cutcher: The one who was screaming for help is the guy who survived.
follow
THU MAY 31, 2012
When Mitt Romney and his gang brutally pinned an effeminate kid to the ground and painfully butchered his hair because they thought he was gay (scarring the person and many of the attackers for life), Romney was an 18 year old senior in high school.
When Trayvon Martin was shot by George Zimmerman for having the audacity to believe he could walk through his dad’s neighborhood without being accosted by the police department’s pet racial profiler, he was a 17 year old junior in high school.
According to conservatives, Mitt Romney was a “kid” who can’t be expected to do much but be irresponsible. According to conservatives, Trayvon Martin was a hulking thug of an adult who deserved to die because he may have smoked a little weed (like most of our recent presidents, including GWB) and may have defended himself against a stalker.
At age 15, Mitt Romney was already as tall as his father. By age 18, he was clearly taller. He was well over 6′-0″ by then and has probably shrunk an inch or so in his older years as most people do (he’s 6′-2″ now).
Trayvon Martin has been reported by the AP as being 6′ tall and thin.
So why the discrepancy in how Republicans perceive these two young men?
Why is one so clearly just a “kid being a kid” and no real threat – while the other is in their minds so clearly a scary brutal powerful man with all the responsibility of an adult?
I would propose that it’s the bigotry that underpins most of their worldview that is creating this glaring discrepancy in their opinions of each incident.
But whatever the reason, their position on Mitt Romney’s brutal attack and the power and adult responsibility he must take for it is totally at odds with their views on Trayvon Martin.
Trayvon was younger and smaller than Mitt Romney, and he didn’t create the dangerous situation he was caught up in. The difference between 18 and 17 can be huge, people are developing quickly at that age. The difference between a skinny 6′ and a solid 6′-3″ is also not negligible.
This discrepancy invalidates both of their opinions on how relevant, brutal, and sadistic Romney’s attack was but it also invalidates their view on how powerful Trayvon Martin was – until such time that they show some consistency in their opinions – which they never will.
I also can’t help but “wonder” (given their opinion that Trayvon deserved what he got) whether Republicans think Romney deserves to be alive today, if Lauber had been carrying a handgun. I put “wonder” in quotes because given their racial hypocrisy, I don’t really wonder.
There is indeed a double-standard. That double-standard also judges that no matter how much education, accomplishments and potential, no one who is not White can never achieve the superiority of the White race. In their mindset, if the world consisted of only Whites, it would women who are inferior.
They are clearly bias so I dont take anything they say serious. I can tell by how they forgive everything George has done and then try to demonize Trayvon for allegedly smoking weed (which many past presidents and founding fathers smoked weed) and got accused of stealing jewelry but was found innocent after investigation because the jewelry really wasnt stolen.
George has allegations of 10 years of molestion and attempted rape of a cousin (thats also incest), he’s kicked a dog for no reason, attacked cops, has a gang tattoo, stalked and harassed that arab american co worker, manipulated co-workers at that same job, assaulted a woman and broke her ankle at his bouncer job, stalked and harassed another black kid who he claimed stole his bike and the cops investigated and found out George was wrong and the bike the black kid had wasnt stolen, stalked and harassed another person over road rage, has numerous complaints of his threatening and deranged behavior where George pretends he is Dirty Harry while on patrol with his gun, schemed and manipulated the law enforcement and court with lies and schemes, beat his ex… I am sure there is more but that is a lot of aggressive manipulative violent behavior…
Serino is not on trial. The State’s position is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ is guilty of 2nd degree murder. Their cross-examination has to focus on that end. If Serino is asked why he put in his report that GZ was screaming for help, his honest answer has to be because GZ said so.
State: “Do you have any evidence or witness statements verifying that the defendant was crying for help?”
Serino: “No.”
State: “Is it true that when you played the recording for the defendant, that he said the cries for help didn’t sound like him?”
Serino: “Yes.”
State: “Were there any witnesses who stated they were crying for help?”
Serino: “No.”
State: “Did any witnesses see anyone other than the defendant and victim during the altercation?”
Serino: “No.”
State: “Is it true that the defendant stated that when residents apparently heard the cries for help and came out, that he stated he needed help to restrain the victim?”
Serino: “Yes.”
State: “Officer Serino, do you hear more on that recording than cries of the words help or help me?
Serino: “Yes.”
State: “What other words do you hear?”
Serino: “I’m begging you and no.”
State: “Did the defendant ever say that he cried out those words?”
Serino: “No.”
IMHO, I feel like Serino has already been delt with (his demotion).. It’s my belief that Serino indeed, was apart of the cover-up… but once he realized he was **in too deep** he had to make what we call in the hood, a pimp decision… Either continue to go along with the original plan, or get while the getting was good… Either way, he was wrong… but I’m sure Serino has learned a hell of a lesson.. Either your apart of the problem, or you’re apart of the solution.. By standing up to Chief Lee and Wolfinger, Serino is apart of the solution in my book…. Its never to late to change
Following.
Okay thanks for clearing that up regarding W18 – I knew I heard it but I guess it was in an interview and not 911 call. Thanks!
De Nada….
: ^ )
Actually I think the interviewer did a better job of asking questions then LE.
To follow Brown´s theme: Sin problema…
Jun, yes, exactly.
It is habit with the Zimmermans that all problems originate from OUTSIDE the golden perimeter of the sacred family. George’s voice actually breaks when he is telling Chris Serino that he started NW because his wife became “scared.” He refers to his wife every time he is explaining how macho he had to be to defend her from the dangers all around her. (Black Dangers!) He sees Trayvon as suspicious because a Black man once leaned on Taaffe’s house, “trying to pretend he lived there” — as if George knew what was inside the man’s head and as if leaning on a house were illegal or were something that only a resident OF that house would ever do. He recites to Serino his frustration that “they” always get away, why? Because he wants to CONTROL “them” so they don’t get away. All good arises from inside the golden perimeter of the sacred family; and all evil originates from outside the golden perimeter.
That way it’s simple and you can tell who’s innocent (HIM) and who’s guilty (those assholes from outside the golden perimeter).
Every time I hear them talk it always sounds to me that they are trying to sell you something rather than being honest and real, or they have an agenda to everything they say or do. It is like they are scared no one believes them and they have to force their views and opinions on people to be truth. They also sound incredibly scripted and emotionless and cold blooded as they can never honestly answer questions or they duck and dodge and deflect questions with straw men.
@Jun.
When the Zimmermans and Zimmerthugs blame others for what they’re going through, they are denying responsibility and perpetuating the problem. By begging for money to get them out of problems they have due to GZ’s actions, they are also giving away their power to others, making them responsible for how the Zimmermans live.
Junior’s race this, race that diatribes are not credible because, for him to say that his family is not racist would mean that his family had discussions about race. What about those discussions? Silence. OTOH, we do have a witness who said that Mama Zim encouraged her children to marry White. That conveys a belief that her Brown children are inferior and deprived of standing on their own two-feet by the decisions and beliefs of others. If Brown people are inferior and deprived, what does that say about Blacks?
Diary, you say, “I am not sure when he realized he had jumped the gun on that or if he ever did.” Well, at least he didn’t jump HIS gun or GEORGE’s gun, he just jumped “THE GUN.”
Which reminds me, about responsibility, about lying and telling the truth: When George says to Hannity that it was not HIS gun and it was not TRAYVON’S gun, it was just THE gun, what he is doing is giving a pretty clear garden-variety definition of “massive projection.” He wants the victim to share with him ownership of the GUN. He bought it and trained with it and registered it and carried it and he used it to kill somebody. But he wants it to be just as much his VICTIM’s gun as his. Or neither. This is what projection is all about. This small comment should be used in teaching psychology courses on what really IS projection as an emotional defense. The person does not want to OWN his or her own acts, characteristics, and actions. So it was not “me killing Trayvon Martin,” it was just “the happening of Trayvon Martin becoming dead.” It was not “my gun” which “I used” to fire the shot when “I killed him.” It was like an act of god, for which I bear no personal responsibility. “I wish there was something I could have done that would have made it not necessary for me to have done what I did…” or whatever gobbledygook George spun out on Hannity. That really means “I wish that there was some way that I could make everybody believe that whatever I did was not my own responsibility at all.” It’s projection.
Not, “I profiled and killed a kid,” but
“Bad media people and activists profiled me as a racist just because a kid caused himself to get killed by me.”
Not, “I took my gun and shot him,” but
“The GUN had to be involved in the guy ending up getting shot.”
I notice all the Zimmermans like to blame everyone else except themselves and take responsibility…
Zimmerman targets, stalks, pursues, chases, terrorizes, and kills a kid… it is Crump and every single black activists fault or it is media bias
Zimmerman with his brother and sister scheme the court… Zimmerman is young, confused, and betrayed instead of the fact he just did it because he wanted to hide his passport and money for ulterior motives
Zimmerman targets and stalks and pursues a kid with a gun… well allegedly its not his fault because when Zimmerman catches up to the kid, the kid allegedly broke his nose and gave him a death beating
Zimmerman attacks cops… oh, it was self defense and the cops did not identify themselves
Zimmerman attacks his ex… oh it was self defense, it was her fault (I also did not see the point of him replying back with a restraining order when in fact she already filed one against him, but I digress)
Zimmerman loses his bike… oh it is obviously the black kid who stole it so I will stalk and harass and terrorize him till cops come and when they arrive Zimmerman finds out he was completely wrong but its still not his fault for jumping to a conclusion with no proof and no apology for the kid either
Zimmerman molests his cousin for 10 years or so… oh its playing doctor… oh Zimmerman means she just wants media attention for the 15 minutes…
Zimmerman is asked why he didnt just leave the kid alone, he was walking home with candy and ice tea from the store because Zimmerman would be at home right now and a kid would be alive right now… a million excuses, race is brought up, and the question is dodged, and then more hearsay of Trayvon giving him a death beating
The theme of the family is that it is always someone else’s fault
Jun says: ” The theme of the family is that it is always someone else’s fault.”
They are arrogant “victims” and if they don’t recognize what GZ has done (profile and kill an innocent teen) after reviewing the evidence dumps, they are also incredibly stupid. Can’t wait for the trial to have their eyes opened as to what GZ actually did and how they lied to cover up for a murderer.
Is it just me or do you think behind the scenes the family including GZ is coming to grips with no amount of RZ Jr or MOM BS is going to get GZ out of the mess he created? All the players on defense are looking much worse than when they started out. Can’t wait to see how ShelLIE is weathering the GZ storm.
Any objective person can tell RZ Jr & Omara is full of crap. Anyone can listen to the scream tapes and the NEN tapes and conclude on their own that they are lying. The screams sound nothing like George and sound like a kid. Not to mention all the other facts George has lied about. I think in the end, all they will see via the jury is that its the typical defendant swearing innocence and lying repeatedly in the face of evidence. If they even listen to the witness interviews they and the NEN tape and the other evidence, they will know George lied about his movements and his story does not even follow the time space continuum and therefore, cannot be true.
In my opinion I can see the effect and agree, by looking at Omara’s face – he looks like he has aged 10 to 20 years since the beginning of the trial, appears to be losing his cool, looks stressed out. George no longer smirks or smiles as he did when he did not have to face trial or hearings yet because he waived the speedy trial right. It is not as easy as people think to pull one over on people, especially when you do wrong and there is so much evidence contrary to George claims. Facing the music and facing scrutiny for the claims and words is way different than when he faced no scrutiny or questioning. Don West looks like he is losing his cool too and continually tries to spin things and lie. Maybe it is a pokerface but does not look to be so.
Singleton pointed out something very important. Had GZ not lied saying that Trayvon smothered him as he pulled his gun and fired, it would not be that important. Since he lied, he was unable to tell Singleton when he was being smothered because at no time was there a break in the screams before the gunshot. There were no muffled sounds. Also, GZ never complained of having a sore throat. Anyone screaming “as loud as I could” for that long is bound to have a sore throat thereafter. GZ spoke the following day clearly, and without clearing his throat.
Xena, the sore throat may be relevant if he screamed longer, I doubt it is if you look at the time we are speaking about. Leave alone that would leave traces the next day.
Screams go beyond the normal octave range of the voice. Via Minnie Ripperton and Lisa Fisher who had high ranges, Fisher passed an octave on the voice range. A music-voice teacher told our class that in order to duplicate it, we had to actually scream. The “note” was only a few seconds. Everyone in class had a sore throat thereafter, treated with lemon drops, even those who were unable to carry their normal tone into “screaming” mode. This was not a situation of projecting a volume but simply reaching the note.
In his re-enactment, GZ said he screamed for help as loud as he could. His problem is that the screams captured on the 911 call did not consist of words only. It would be as though someone was reaching a “high note” beyond their normal octave range. That would cause the throat to be sore. Trust me on this.
I want to know how Trayvon Martin used his hand to “smother” George Zimmerman’s mouth as Zimmerman’s nose bled “copiously”, without getting a spot of GZ’s blood on his hands, nails or hoodie sleeves or without stopping George’s long continuous scream. It’s an amazing feat of physics.
“The theme of the family is that it is always someone else’s fault”
You wait and see…..they’ll blame God. Somehow….God will be blamed.
My opinion is that they play games in the devils playground & God said “….you’re on yer own now…….Zidiots …”
@Malisha. Continuing with your comments on projection, don´t forget GZ´s words of “regret” and/or “apology” no less than to America at the end of the SH interview:
“But I do wish that there was something, anything I could have done that wouldn’t have put me in the position where I had to take his life.”
or in other words,
God did it, i.e. I couldn´t do anything different because it was all in God´s plan !
Well, at least he didn’t jump HIS gun or GEORGE’s gun, he just jumped “THE GUN.”
LOL – good one!
The person interviewing the teacher, W13 (Serino, I believe), told her in the interview that if it was any consolation to her, the person screaming was not the person killed. That is what she said in her interview with the state. I don’t know if the same was said to Mary Cutcher or not, but the person who was reported to have been corrected by the police that night was the teacher. In addition, Serino wrote in his Capias that the person screaming was GZ. As you can see, he was convinced that it was GZ screaming for help from the night of the shooting until he filed his report recommending manslaughter. I am not sure when he realized he had jumped the gun on that or if he ever did.
sucessfulloser if you allow me:
Why not look at the available evidence. Below a really fast transcription, and I don’t have the patience to figure out what Serino exactly says, e.g.I simply added something in parenthesis where I would need to go back and pay closer attention, Anyway, Selma and Mary may well be a nightmare for an investigator that is not as restrained* as John Batchelor, and actually likes to respond to people’s questions.
* restrained concerning giving out information.
Serino, March 1, 2012, about,
He answers to Selma’s question, with Mary adding their own concern, why the guy wasn’t arrested, starting about 05:45 with Selma asking, Serino:
Already on Feb. 26, 2012 evening Serino was confronted with the shock of the teacher who tells him, that never in her life will she forget the scream. Now his is confronted with two women telling him, there was nothing like that, just a child crying, Maybe not even a fight? As others have witnessed.
Notice absolutely unprofession, unfortunately this is what makes him human to me.
Just listen for yourself. Punishment for a too human police officer somehow interested in concerns follows immediately as his story shows. That’s why he never, ever should have responded to it. Sad as this may sound.
Ok I start to proofread from now on, I watched this while I pushed the buton:
Notice absolutely unprofessional
about resolutions, 😉
correcting one leaving another
If I was the state, I would ask the cops str8 up…
“Were you there to actually witness the situation or did you arrive after the fact?”
then
“Well since you arrived after the fact, why did you try to tell people what they saw or heard?”
Because of the above happening I think the cops may plead the fifth on some questions or not bother answering a lot of questions because the actual witnesses on the scene will be telling the jury what the cops were doing on the scene
I dont think Omara attempting that crap will work because Serino wasnt actually there listening to the screams when it occurred, he was only going by what George said to him. I feel Serino will want to keep his job so he is going to say that he was just going by what George said, he did not actually listen to it yet, and when he did hear it, he was mistaken and that it was actually the victim Trayvon screaming. When the jury actually listens to the tape, he is going to look like crap, so if Omara tries to ask that question, I believe Serino will give a longer answer than normal to cover himself
The defense has to be careful with Serino. Imagine Serino saying – quite possibly truthfully – that the biggest mistake in his career was believing GZ even for a moment. That wouldn’t make a real difference in terms of evidence, but it is the kind of thing they really don’t want to hear.
Even the other cops may simply say that they believed there was insufficient evidence to convict him but they still felt he was a suspect and potentially guilty, hence the investigation becoming more in depth.
I feel Omara is opening up a can of worms for both himself and the cops
O’Mara will know within seconds of starting the depositions if he will use the officers he has listed for witnesses. If they take the Fifth then he will put them on the stand and let them take it again. If they answer his questions they will be worthless to him. All he wants are the ones taking the Fifth. Even that could backfire on him.
I thought that too. What if Serino takes the stand, and Singleton, and note their demonstrable scepticism and incredulity, etc. at GZ´s story… could be damning for George if OMoney takes that route!
I say the same. He may not break the defence but he at best he will be extremely uncomfortable for them along with Singleton who it seems was also not buying GZ´s story.
I also think this is possible if the trial gets to the point where Serino testifies.
I cannot find the citations for this, but this is what I believe:
1. Sean could not have told anyone on any 911 call that the screams were from the person who survived because the information had not yet been given to ANYONE that either of the two was pronounced dead yet;
2. From what I heard, Mary Cutcher phoned in the altercation and Trayvon Martin was killed WHILE she was on the phone. That phone call ended. Some time later (whether hours or days, I don’t know) Serino went to her HOUSE and spoke with her, not recording it. I think at that time he told her, if it was any consolation, she should realize that the person screaming for help was the person who was NOT KILLED. (This is just plain stupid; it would mean that the person who WAS killed did not need help just because he didn’t ASK for it.)
3. After that time, I think the recorded interview with Mary Cutcher was done and in that recorded interview, no mention was made of who was screaming, except by her. She was not advised. Remember, a cop doesn’t want to do something like that while he knows he is being taped. (Although Serino does lead witnesses; he said to George, “You had his hands, you grabbed his hands, you had him — we call it wrist control” and George just says, “yeah.”)
Mary Cutcher is also the witness who claimed that she had tried to call the police repeatedly to give more information and they did not respond to her. They were not interested in getting more information from her, and called her witness statements “inconsistent.” They were not inconsistent — they were simply contradictory to the inconsistent statements given by George.
The mother of the 13-year-old boy walking his dog also said that the police led her son while he made his statement, telling him who was wearing red, as well as other things like that.
All this is, in my opinion, irrelevant to the Murder-2 charge. The evidence is what it is in the final analysis and the witnesses will all say whatever they say when they’re under oath on the stand. The really important issue about all this is for the FBI and the DOJ. As in: Did the SPD deliberately avoid getting the best evidence they could possibly get in order to have some excuse for their corrupt decision to avoid criminal charges against George Zimmerman, and if so, the famous journalistic questions: what, who, where, when, how and WHY?
Short reply Malisha, not responding to all of your points, but strictly there is a narrative out there concerning Selma and Mary that they offered more information, but Serino never bothered to call them back. He in fact went there on March 1, that is one day after his interview with GZ, and presumably after he met Tracy. One day later he met them again at the police station. What more relevant details could they give after that? From the prosecution’s point of view?
follow
As far back as March, that is, before Zimmerman was charged with any crime, the tapes of the screams for “Help” had been provided to two voice-identification experts (and obviously, they could be given to another hundred) and both of those experts, using two different analysis techniques, came up saying it was not George Zimmerman screaming “Help” or “Help me” on the tape.
Professor Jonathan Turley’s blog observed on April 1, 2012:
“The chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, Tom Owen, and Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, have independently concluded that the furtive pleas for help clearly heard on the 911 tapes are not George Zimmerman’s. Both acknowledged experts used voice enhancing software, but different techniques, to rate the probability of the voice being Zimmerman’s at no more than 48%. A 90% match is considered scientifically reliable.”
Then the FBI came up with the equivocal comment that they could not tell who was screaming on the tape. Of course they couldn’t. The point was not to figure out who was screaming; the point was to determine whether George Zimmerman’s voice could be RULED OUT as the screamer of the “Help” sounds.
Here’s my logical position on the source of the screams:
1. George is described as volunteering the following statement to the emergency medical crew seeing to his injuries as he was being cuffed and placed into the squad car: “I was screaming HELP HELP but nobody helped me.”
2. He had already told the police that he had shot Trayvon Martin. In other words, he already had a brief conversation with the police before volunteering the statement about the screams for HELP.
3. He did not tell the EMT’s at the time that when he screamed for HELP HELP, a neighbor came out to help him and notified him that he was about to call 911 on his behalf; later, he said that a neighbor had done so but George’s directions to that neighbor had been, “no, don’t call them, I already called them, come and help me restrain this guy.” Words to that effect.
4. Some time passed, with someone out there with a flashlight, before the police admit to having arrived on the scene. During that period of time, George admits that he had some conversation with the witness who was there but who was not police.
===========================================
I conclude:
When the police arrived George already realized that the screams for help were heard all over the neighborhood. He also realized that although the “no don’t call them I already did” witness might be very supportive to his “side of the story,” he might have a problem if others in the neighborhood heard Trayvon’s screams and were disposed to telling the cops that George was brutalizing while Trayvon was screaming for help. Therefore, he wanted to claim responsibility for those screams — not realizing there was a recording of them for analysis — as soon as the police were to show up.
I further conclude:
The witness who photographed George’s head was also probably consulting with him as to how to present the situation so as to protect himself from legal accountability. “Say you were screaming for help” was part of the program. George is not the only liar in the mix; he was not the only voice on the tape; who screamed really doesn’t prove or disprove Murder-2 but it sure could damage George’s credibility if a more thorough evaluation of the tape is entered into evidence.
============================
That said, I think it’s time for George to start recording, “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, forgive me forgive me” fourteen times so he’s ready for the penalty phase of his trial. OR, equally, for his plea bargain where he has to elocute.
ofc TIm Smith is the one who claims GZ told the EMTs he was crying for help. However, the EMTs do not report this in their interviews with investigators.
The whole thing stinks, but IMO whose voice cried for help will NOT be a determining factor to a jury, as it can be argued by experts to be impossible to determine scientifically due to the poor quality of the audio sample. In other words, both sides can claim it’s “their guy” who called for help, and this is a plus for the prosecution as they will present the grieving mother to make the claim that it is Trayvon. Whether fact or fiction, this will be an emotional moment and it will be powerful stuff for a jury to hear and see. But it won’t settle the minds of ALL the jurors.
I just think that at the end of the day it is GZ’s lack of credibility that will be the determining factor for the jurors. By the time the prosecution finishes presenting its case, if GZ’s lawyer claims he thinks the sun rises in the east the jury isn’t likely to believe it. The guy’s a liar, and he’s lied about his movements and actions in rather obvious ways all the way up until he says “he ran” on his NEN call recording. The rest of his story is fishy too, and fits the pattern of his lies. “When in doubt, George leaves it out.”
And defense will present GZ’s whole family to claim it was their boy or brother or husband who cried each one would take an oath on that.
Serino will appear in the witness box and recall that Tracy was in fact too honest, and said, after having being confronted with Serino’s perspective that there was no evidence against GZ, something like he wasn’t sure, since he never before heard his boy cry like that.
IIRC, Serino asked Tracy if he was 100% certain that was Trayvon screaming on the tape and Tracy said, “No.”
Not a fair question.
However, I don’t believe it matters whether any parent or family member can correctly identify who was screaming, as it is apparent that there are two voices audible and, from the context of what one says to the other and the terrified shriek that ended with the shot to the heart, there is no doubt that the person who shrieked is the person who was shot and died.
Members of the Zimmerman family who testify that George is the person screaming are not going to be believed.
Professor says: ” ……. there is no doubt that the person who shrieked is the person who was shot and died.
IIRC, didn’t GZ say the reason he was “screaming” was so the police he thought were in the area could find his exact location? Also didn’t GZ say he was unsure that he shot and killed Trayvon?
Why would GZ stop screaming after the shot was fired if this was allegedly him screaming so the police could locate him and he was unsure if he shot Trayvon?
The GZ’s screaming story makes absolutely no sense. Does anyone think it makes sense to Zimmerman’s family who are positive it is GZ screaming or are they just lying for the sake of family pride and trying to keep a killer out of prison?
jd, you are aware that Timothy Smith either met GZ on Feb. 2, 2012 or was aware that he was the one who called 911. I am assuming the first.
Timothy Smith was well aware of who GZ was.
He responded to calls on
1/29/2012
2/2/2012
2/26/2012
Click to access george-zimmermans-911-call-history1.pdf
It would seem to me that the only logical way to approach the question of who was screaming would be to first discount the opinions of both families. They can not possibly be objective about this. There are three well known audio scientists who have analyzed the 911 calls and compared them with GZ’s example. They all agree it could not be Zimmerman. Those witnesses who have an opinion all agree it was a child’s voice; Several say they heard him calling for his mother. Two former FBI employees were unable to form an opinion as to which person screamed. No witness that I am aware of thought it was the older voice. One interesting thing that all of the experts agreed on was that there were no sounds of a fight on any of the 911 calls
Malisha, as always, I don’t know perfectly why, it’s more instinctive, but wouldn’t he have been very stupid to look out for help by someone else, beyond documenting his “wounds” and calling his wife? Maybe this could have happened to him before studying criminal justice? Consider that would be a potential witness that could theoretically blackmail him for some of his support funds. 😉
Remember Wendy from SPD in charge of NW, never received the requested list of the block captains. Were there any at all? I can’t really tell you why, but I doubt. Isn’t he the type who would have proudly presented something like that, if it existed? OK, maybe he wanted to wait till his list looked really impressive. 😉
Didn’t with the exception of two (three?) all other witnesses deny that they knew Zimmerman. Could they trust it wouldn’t somehow surface, if they in fact did? .
There probably was no real NW; it was George and Taaffe, in my opinion.
DR Arthur Reich, a well known sound scientist, also examined the tapes (I believe he was hired by the Washington Post). He concluded that the screams were made by younger vocal cords than Zimmerman’s He also reported that three of the screams were “Please, I am begging you” “somebody, please, help me” and the final uncompleted “STOP” What possible purpose would Zimmerman have for yelling any of that?
–listen to W18’s 911 call again—at no time does the dispatcher (sean) tell her that ‘the person screaming was the one who survived’.
Well I guess my memory failed me but I thought at some point we did hear someone say …if there it’s any consolation, the person screaming help survived.
That was not during the 911 call.
In my mind’s ear, I hear it…an interview?
IIRC, the 911 dispatcher said that to a caller, possibly the teacher, W18.
princss6
You are correct, but it was in written form from witness 18 page 101 of 183 of first discovery.
Click to access Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf
no, the dispatcher actually stated that the person screaming and shot, as per her witness account, has not passed yet and the ambulance is on the way
YES!
page 93 of 183 is what you are looking for.
Click to access Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf
So I gave him my statement on tape. After I completed the statement, I cried and told him I’ll never forget the cries for help and wish I could have helped. And the investigator By the name of Chris told me ” If it makes you feel any better the crys for help were not the person that died” and your statement was the same as the other witnesses.
I feel the cops that made those mistakes will not want to open that can of worms. The cops wouldnt bother to listen to witnesses, people who were actually there, and then told the witnesses what they saw or heard when witness 18, sounds like she attributed the screaming to the dead kid.
You are correct,
Listen forward from 8;00
I found the interview you are speaking about, I was looking at police files should of been looking in my interview files. I posted it down thread.
: ^ )
During the 18 was sobbing, nearly hysterical. The operator told her that they didn’t know that the boy on the ground had passed”. That may not be verbatim but it is very close.
Hi Nancy, Pleased to see you here
Welcome to the sane (site) side
Correct. The only thing the operator said in that respect to W18 during her 911 call was at 7:20:25 when the operator clearly states because of her fretting about the victim lying dead on the ground:
“Just because he´s laying on the ground doesn´t mean he´s past”.
Anything different must have been in an interview.
Serino’s statement is a premature assumption on his part, and as such, cannot be admitted as evidence.
Whether he consciously decided to influence witnesses or carelessly offered his own assumption to witnesses may never be established.
But I don´t think he tried influence, just made an unbeleivably stupid mistake and for that he has, and so he should be, reprimanded.
I agree. I think Serino was being chatty with the witness and careless at that point. I think he realizes down the road after interviews with GZ that things aren’t quite the way they seemed to be on the night of TM’s death.
From what I’ve been reading the SPD lost no time before telling the potential witnesses that GZ was the person screaming and that he acted in self defense. Witness !8, as upset as she was on the 911 call certainly seemed certain that it was a boy screaming and that the screaming stopped immediately with the gun shot. She also puts GZ firmly on top of Trayvon in the middle of the grass far from where GZ claims TM was beating his head into the ground. She sees and hears the gun fire, sees GZ stand up step away from the body, no concern for whether the boy was alive or dead. I would think her evidence would be about the most crucial
leander22 says:
November 4, 2012 at 1:10 pm
princss6 says:
November 4, 2012 at 9:47 am
Revisit W18′s call to 911, IIRC, while still on the phone with 911, she was told that the person screaming was the one who survived.
but that is not Serino. I did revisit,. Strictly her call, never mind how hysterical she is, Jeralyn reduced her to the hysterical teacher, shows she indeed could distinguish between the voice of an older man and a boy, since she later talks about a “boy”. Notice she talks about a boy before she knew who had been shot.. Would Trayvon on the ground look “boyish” from her distance? I doubt considering his seize.
Anyway, Serino does not suggest anything to her during his interview.
Bringing over – my point is leander – within about five minutes of the shot someone had communicated to NEN that the person who was screaming was the person who survived. Was he lying or did he get that information from the scene? Regardless of who said it, it was said to her on the call.
Oh and let’s add – the person W18 spoke to was ALSO the same person Zimmerman called on NEN.
Sean. Is he on witness list?
I may commit another serious blunder, I actually find his voice and the way he handles both calls actually quite likeable.
Hysterical as she may have been, Witness 18 indentifies the scream as coming from a kid, places Zimmerman firmly on top of Martin when he shot, and places the two of them in the middle of the grass where Trayvon could not posssibly have bashed GZ’s head into concrete
also the dog lady witness says she heard the “boy” moaning and groaning on the ground.
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-19-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
right off the top of my head these four knew he was young
witness 5 selma
witness 8 deedee
witness 16 mary cutchner
witness 19 dog lady
The kid was lying on the ground. Trayvon
She says she saw a gentleman she’s seen before. George –
But then she says:
She says she thought it was an elderly neighbor having a heart attack or something.
I’m confused. First a kid, then an elderly neighbor?
Go back and listen to her audios. She first says she recognizes that a kid is on the ground, then she says that she first thought it was her elderly neighbor. I think she is trying to cover up her own words that she did see and recognize a young boy and George.
Brown, the problem the teacher poses for an investigator, may well be that she realizes while on the phone with 911the dead person is a boy. Does this mean “the boy” she heard before? She does not say. Unfortunately she was much too agitated to tell immediately, she had been able to distinguish between the voice of an younger and older man. On her 911 call she only talks about a boy once she sees him lying on the ground. It is a serious plunder that Serino did not go back on Feb 29, when he found out who Trayvon was, and said. Look, you offered me to show from were you witnessed the whole event. Now tell me again precisely what you witnessed. Or simply send Batchelor?
Princess6, I have listened to the call, several times, and checked the transcript but I haven´t found anywhere where the operator informs W18 that the person screaming had survived. Can you detail what time into the call you hear the operator say this as I need it for a compilation I am trying to do with the calls?
Oooops just found below your retract. You probably mixed it up with the operator saying to console the lady who thought one had been killed:
“Just because he’s laying on the ground doesn’t mean he’s past.”
The operator said “we don’t know that anyone has passsed”
@Nancy. At 7:20:25 in W18´s 911 call the operator clearly says, i.e., “Just because he´s laying on the ground doesn´t mean he´s past”. The other, “we don´t know that anyone has passed”, I seem to recall but it must be with another witness.
You are right – W18 in her written statement taken by the private investigator says the Serino told her on 2/26 – that the person who survived was the person screaming. Check her written statement – the very lengthy one.
Thanks Princess6, I already knew what Serino told her was in her statements, but the reference in question was to the 911 call and whether the operator said it which would have been very strange.
.
Exactly,I think her experience as a teacher interacting with kids versus grown adults makes her initial claim of a boy wailing a positive slam dunk for TM.
Princess, I am in the process to modify my take of Serino
I started out with emphasis on the audio files. Maybe the idea of a completely corrupt police office as a general message worries me? …
Unfortunately I have huge troubles with the handwritten reports, and find it additionally difficult to find my way around in the discoveries. I wish I had done what I initially wanted, create a short contexts file to find my way around them more easily.
But over there (link above) Malisha mentions a witness in response to you, I am either not aware of, or seem to forget. Can you give me a chance to understand what you two are alluding to, Ideally were I could find it?
I shut up now, I think I used the wrong reply intersection. Which may cause confusion. Sorry! this was meant to be further up, it feels.
Princess:
princess, if I am not completely deaf, dumb, and blind, this is not quite true, if I didn’t miss something else he said, that is.
If I remember correctly, it starts around 7:30 or slightly later, yes, check yourself:
from memory, maybe not 100% exact.
Dose anyone know if the FDLE conducted an interveiw with
Witness 18 I only the one that she did with Serino.
@ Mike,
this might help some nice person organized the information on a discovery dump
http://forums.hannity.com/printthread.php?t=2405841&pp=15&page=1951
Thanks
su bienvenida
: ^ )
your welcome
: ^ ))
following….