Zimmerman: Conspiracy and Coconspirator Liability for Crimes Committed by a Member of the Conspiracy

Lonnie Starr has been discussing the possibility of others being involved with George Zimmerman in a conspiracy to detain and possibly kill a suspected residential burglar.

Here is a brief discussion of general conspiracy law and the potential liability of coconspirators for a murder committed by a member of the conspiracy.

A conspiracy is an agreement by two or more people to commit a specific crime.

Assuming for the sake of argument that there was a conspiracy, liability would depend on the purpose of the conspiracy.

If it were to kill, then the appropriate charge would be conspiracy to commit murder and all members of the conspiracy would be charged with that offense as well as the murder itself.

If it were to detain a suspect for arrest by a police officer, conspiracy to commit murder would not be an appropriate charge.

However, if the objective of the conspiracy were a crime, which it would be if it were to detain someone because that would be an assault, battery and possibly an involuntary detention or a kidnapping, and a killing were a reasonably foreseeable consequence, as would be the case if the plan included the use of a gun to detain a person, then all of the coconspirators could be held responsible for the murder.

The legal rule is coconspirators can be held responsible for the crimes committed by other members of the conspiracy in furtherance of the conspiracy, even if they did not know about those crimes and never consented to them, so long as the crimes were a reasonably foreseeable consequence of the conspiracy.

Therefore, if other people were involved with George Zimmerman in a conspiracy to detain suspected burglars for arrest by police officers and they knew he was armed with a gun and intended to use it, they could be charged and convicted of murder as coconspirators, even though they did not specifically intend that outcome.

If this were the case, the prosecution would have considerable power to obtain cooperation from identified coconspirators against George Zimmerman in exchange for light sentences.

At this point, however, I am not aware of sufficient evidence to charge anyone with conspiracy, despite hints that Zimmerman did not act alone.

Keep this article in mind as the case progresses.

160 Responses to Zimmerman: Conspiracy and Coconspirator Liability for Crimes Committed by a Member of the Conspiracy

  1. Malisha says:

    jd, I have to take issue with your demeaning comment about sardines’ anuses. Those little fish swim around in salt water all day; their little behinds are just as clean as all outdoors!

  2. rachael says:

    GEORGE ZIMMERMAN TRIAL DATE SET FOR JUNE 10, 2013

  3. Malisha says:

    Friends, over at the “Zimmerman made race an issue” thread I asked a question about the Outhouse crowd. If anybody has an opinion on it, let me know. Thanks. 🙂

  4. grahase says:

    I can agree with some of what you are saying. However, there are some of your answers are not answers but opinions. I will go back and check my facts because I am sure I read that the two main cameras at the entrance of the Retreat were non-operational that night. Opinions, theories are okay. Unfortunately, they are not answers to the questions asked. We most-likely will never know. Voices and sounds behind the NEN call conversation and over the witness call with the screams may have been interpreted. We shall see.

    • grahase says:

      The questions are simply a curiosity and have no bearing in the case at hand. Personally, I feel there is much more going on with this story. If Taaffe, Osterman, or Shellie are reading these posts, they would be the only ones who could answer the questions posed. Would I believe their answers though – probably not.

    • Xena says:

      @grahase. I realize that some hearing the sound as Zimmerman states his last name do not think it’s a gun. I lean to the side that says it might be and this is why. On the NEN recording when Sean asks for GZ’s last name, there is a hesitation before he answers. That is when the sound comes in and he then states his last name. It’s sounds like this; (click) Zimmerman.

      There’s something with that hesitation that bothers me. Whatever GZ was doing before answering the question had his attention. He had to finish it before answering.

      Oh — and yes. There is a report that the cameras at the gate were not operational. The clubhouse vids capture headlights, but not the vehicle description neither that of the driver.

      • Malisha says:

        And George does know the folks who are responsible for the operation and operability of the cameras at the gate and the clubhouse. And remember, when anybody fails to do their jobs even for a minute, George reports them. He would be reporting anybody who did not have the cameras operable. And if the RTL was about to hire someone to go around reporting “HOA violations” there would be a lot of oversight going on. Interesting. In the jailhouse conversations between George and Shellie there is mention of the guy who’s in charge — I can’t remember his name.

      • whonoze says:

        There are audio recordings of the gun sound on YouTube, and I made a close comparison between them and the sounds on the NEN call. The timing is similar, but waveform envelopes are totally different. Can’t be the same thing.

        My point about the surveillance videos is just to note that the work tchoupi, willisnewton and others are doing on the clubhouse videos just might be the straw that breaks the back of Zimmerman’s claim that he spotted Trayvon acting suspiciously by Taffee’s, and the whole defense falls apart from there.

  5. Xena says:

    If GZ is reading from a mental ‘script’ why is he doing such a bad job: stumbling over phrasing, forgetting not just the address of the clubhouse but the whole numbering system of the complex, being unable to describe his location even when he’s really trying, slurring his words and speaking more slowly than he does in other recordings?

    Because MAYBE, he mixed his Adderall with alcohol??

    • Malisha says:

      “If GZ is reading from a mental ‘script’ why is he doing such a bad job: stumbling over phrasing, forgetting not just the address of the clubhouse but the whole numbering system of the complex, being unable to describe his location even when he’s really trying, slurring his words and speaking more slowly than he does in other recordings?”

      Because MAYBE he ain’t ready for prime time. 😛

  6. whonoze says:

    “What are those car door sounds at the start of the NEN call?”

    There are no door sounds at the beginning of the NEN call. The background sounds are wipers and maybe the shift lever.

    “Who is George talking to when he seems to whisper, “the keys are in my truck” while on the NEN call?”

    He is talking to operator Sean in a normal voice. It only sounds like a whisper due to the way the AGC on the recording system handles the level change when both GZ and Sean spek at the same time

    “What is that knocking sound shortly after GZ whispers those words? is it a door?”

    If it’s a door, no one opens it. And no, it’s not the gun being racked either. I think it’s the flashlight. GZ was running after TM, then lost track of him. The odds that this happened just by the house of a friend are slim indeed.

    “Why does that guy say, “he warned me off”, to his wife after seemingly running in the house, during the “scream” 911 call?”

    I don’t think we know he said that. I find that part of the call unintelligible.

    “Why were the only security cameras that would show comings and goings be non-operational?”

    The security cameras at the clubhouse DO show comings and goings. Check tchoupi’s work on bcclist.

    “Why did Frank Taaffe go on national television recounting the tale of the Zimmerman story as though he knew what had happened, even going to the site and explaining how it happened?”

    Because he’s a lonely and broken man who got a big ego boost from being on TV and treated like an important person.

    “Why was Shellie allowed to remove the vehicle Zimmerman had used?”

    Beat cops aren’t very bright. Especially in Sanford FL, apparently.

    “Why did Smith not secure the scene and allowed (sic) Zimmerman to converse with witnesses?”

    He had to secure _Zimmerman_, and AFAIK GZ only spoke to witnesses before Smith arrived. (Not that, overall, the SPD’s police work was anything but shoddy.)

    “Why would Taaffe leave windows and doors opened and unlocked when he is a NW person himself and living beside a commonly used cut-through?”

    Because he’s a lonely and broken man with a drinking problem.

    “Why would Zimmerman call Taaffe to give his condolences to Taaffe about the loss of his long-deceased son within a couple of days after the shooting when Zimmerman was hiding out at Ostermans?”

    Because GZ wanted to manipulate Taffee into acting as a surrogate after Joe Oliver hit the bricks.

    “What are the voices heard in the background whilst Zimmerman was on the NEN call and what are these voices saying?”

    Unless you’re referring to other police operators speaking in the background on Sean’s end, you’re hallucinating.

    If you want a good conspiratorial question (though perhaps not a criminal conspiracy), try this:

    How did JohnW6 come up with the MMA beat-down statement after describing events in very different terms during his 911 call. (Methinks somebody must have primed the pump…)

    And two non-conspiratorial questions:

    If GZ is reading from a mental ‘script’ why is he doing such a bad job: stumbling over phrasing, forgetting not just the address of the clubhouse but the whole numbering system of the complex, being unable to describe his location even when he’s really trying, slurring his words and speaking more slowly than he does in other recordings?

    Why did three different witnesses (two apparently independently) come to the conclusion that Chris Serino had blown them off; and can it be just a coincidence that all three are women?

    • rachael says:

      @Whonoze:

      “Why did three different witnesses (two apparently independently) come to the conclusion that Chris Serino had
      blown them off; and can it be just a coincidence that all three are women?”

      THAT is an interesting question!

      I don’t buy into the conspiratorial stuff much. I do think it is possible that Shellie was in the car with GZ, but I do not think there was anything organized to go out hunting that night. I just think it was another of his calls but this time, since he was out and about in his car, he was gonna chase this one down and hold him for police but it went way bad wrong. I don’t think he had any intent to go hunting that night until the opportunity came up. A whole organized hunting trip is just too much for even me to believe.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        6:05:– Trayvon leaves home for store. (est. ~16m_walk)

        It’s a 16 minute walk, so we can count backwards and get the approx. time he left, 6:05. Until he leaves home, there is no “target” and there’s no way to know that one will exist. That is, unless TM is somehow lured out. Now, remember, TM has been at RATL for 6 days already, and he has been in the nabe many times before, even played football and probably made some friends and acquaintances. So, it is a possibility that a meeting with TM at 711 could have been set at anytime by any of these young people.

        Remember also that TM has a couple of loose dollars in his hands at the counter, but has no loose dollars when found. So, maybe they wanted him out there, to help them pay for a blunt? They wouldn’t let him know this until the last minute, otherwise he might not come. He comes out, meets them, but doesn’t want to smoke with them, so he just lends or gives them the loose bucks as his share and after saying his goodbyes heads for home. A possibility?

        Setting up meetings with intended victims is a very old mob trick we see used constantly in films and books. Sure it seems far fetched but who can say? But the elements of such a plan are not completely non-existent. Nor are they yet ruled out. One or more of those guys at 711 could know either Osterman or Taaffe or GZ.

        6:21:54 Trayvon is seen outside the store traveling
        from the East to the West to enter 7 Eleven

        6:24:32 Two minutes later Trayvon leaves the store
        but is not seen outside heading back East

        Says his goodbyes? Then leaves?

        6:29:19 Trayvon is seen outside heading back East

        6:30:– Trayvon’s 5:09 call ends

        6:30:– Trayvon makes call lasting 13 minutes. ends 6:43

        This call lasts just about as long as it takes for TM to reach the mailboxes.

        6:38:– Is that Mark Osterman at the M&I bank? SP has
        taken the video into evidence.

        If Osterman is the source of the notice to GZ, there’s barely time for him to make the call, before TM reaches the mailboxes.

        6:41:– Incoming call lasting 4 minutes ends at 6:45

        6:42:19 approx. At mailboxes: ~3452 feet from 711 @ 4.4ft/sec. 13min.

        Of course, if TM hustled just a bit, because of the rain, he’d arrive just a minute or three sooner than 6:42 perhaps even 6:38 or 39. Then only an entry by LLMpapa’s selected cut-through, gives Osterman a chance to make the sighting and give notice.
        But this would also mean that Osterman was already on the lookout for TM in advance for some strange reason. Meaning, of course, that he’d have had something to do with luring TM out into the night.

        6:43:– Trayvon’s 6:30 call ends

        6:45:– Incoming 6:41 call ends

        6:45:– Trayvon makes call lasting 5 minutes ends at 6:50

        Conspiracies work well when they seem unlikely and “too complex” to be planned.

    • jd says:

      Thanks whonoze for the insightful words. I agree with all of this.

      Serino however is more complex than we’ll ever know unless he opens up to reporters or writes a book. He told at least one female resident that she needed to “read between the lines” (regarding the issue of race in the case) and told her in so many words that he did not find GZ credible. I think he did a good job, and was busy hunting for a lynchpin / surefire eyewitness to the start of the confrontation for that reason. He may have given somewhat short shrift to some witnesses but let’s face it, none of them saw the incident begin, and that’s what matters if you are looking for a quick conviction. The closest he got was the “foot chase” witness, but he never stopped pushing to break the case. In hindsight he might have been able to improve on his “bedside manner” but I don’t think he was deliberately trying to blow the case.

      As for the question of conspiracy, it’s a frustrating thing to ponder. There is what happened, and there is what can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a courtroom.

      Here’s what I know: many things are possible. What George Zimmerman claims happened is NOT possible.

      What can be proven in court is M2, GZ acting alone for reasons I’m not going to bother to go over here. We all know he’s a liar, and his self defense claims won’t hold up to scrutiny.

      Currently there may or may not exist proof to include a conspiracy, but what I know is that the state has not filed any charges. Perhaps Mark Osterman is a secret witness for the state, but I tend to doubt it. We may know more if we ever hear about GZ’s phone logs. We have to wait and see.

      As to “What Happened,” we probably will never know absent a confession by someone. Thankfully the pressure is on against Mark Osterman for tampering with evidence (being a party to moving the car) and Shellie for perjuring herself about the hidden passport and hidden money. Even greater, the pressure is on GZ for murder and his defense is falling apart at the seams. I still think he may plead guilty before trial, after stalling as long as he can. It’s his best path to doing the least amount of time in prison.

      Here’s my two cents on the “what happened” best-guess/ knowing-what-we-know-now scenario :

      IMO George got a tip off from Mark Osterman, drove alone from home and found TM by the mail shed, following the pattern of lights tchoupi deduced. His later story about someone by Taaffe’s house is fiction, and the “facts” conflated with the earlier incident as a convenient and quick alibi invented as he waited for questioning from Singleton, and worked out on the fly as she interviewed him. He paused at the shed, then drove down TTL and doubled back to observe from the first corner, as he marked on the map Singleton gave him. When TM passed him, he moved his car to follow as the timing suggests and Dee Dee clearly states in the ABC news/Crump interview, but was not specifically asked about in her deposition to investigators. GZ made a fast walk/ fat boy jog to the T, and banged on his black flashlight that wasn’t working. Later, he told a pack of lies about every bit of this.

      I don’t know what happened in the “missing minutes” but an unarmed teen was killed after being interrupted talking on the phone with his lady friend. And the man who admits doing it has zero credibility and every reason in the world to lie about it. His story sinks like a sardine’s anus.

      Afterwards, GZ called someone and then had someone else call his wife, and his car was removed from the scene. Mark Osterman admits speaking to officers on scene that night, and no officer admits speaking to him. It’s possible some officers were complicit in the moving of the car, simply as a favor to Osterman who asked them to “save the guy the impound fees” but we can’t prove that.

      The SPD’s investigators did their jobs fairly well for a small town police department, and that mainly consisted of playing good cop/good cop and thereby humoring GZ into continuing to talk himself into a guilty verdict, since it was clear from the start that he was at minimum a bungling wannabe cop who chased down an innocent kid and then shot him for no good reason. 92% of the case against GZ can be made using his own words, a map and a stopwatch.

      Local prosecutor Norm Wolfinger is either incompetent, racially biased, or openly corrupt and was never investigated. SPD Chief Bill Lee was never investigated. These men are paid to uphold the law and did not do their duty. We will always have George ZImmermans, running around playing cop and shooting kids tragically. Its the one’s we pay to uphold the law however that we can and should do something about. Bill Lee was fired and Wolfinger quietly announced he won’t run for re-election. GZ seems to be prison bound but there are going to be guilty persons who escape judgement here.

      Chasing after white rabbits leads to a lot of frustration down a rabbit hole. I’d caution all to be careful. Again, there’s what happened, and there’s what can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.

      two last thoughts:

      “Forget about it, Jake, its Chinatown”

      “Don’t mourn, organize.”

      • whonoze says:

        Brilliant post jd. Loving the Joe hill reference.

        Solidarity,

        w.

      • rachael says:

        I agree. I especially like:

        “Here’s what I know: many things are possible. What George Zimmerman claims happened is NOT possible.”

        But you are dead on right about it doesn’t matter what happened, it only matters what you can prove.

  7. Tee says:

    I believe that it was osterman there that night and he left before the police arrived because of his position in law enforcement he would have lost his job. I think this is why he said that he would die for the Zimmermans because both families are trying to protect each other and he wanted them to know that he stand firm on keeping there secret. Why else would a man with a family pledge his life to a man when he has a family, a young child? Also what type of best friend Zimmerman could have been if he haven’t spoken to the very man who was your protector when all of this took place. Something stinks in Denmark, because if I was the wife of Osterman and he sat on national television and said he would die for a man that he haven’t spoken to in months a man that lied to him about graduating from college if he sat there and said he’d die for anyone other than myself and our kid and maybe his mother I would have slapped the words right out of his mouth.

    • I believe you would, too.

      Call me psychic, but I guess that means you wouldn’t be into swinging with the Zimmermans either.

      • Malisha says:

        Ouch Ouch it hurts when I laugh that much, stoppit! 😀

      • MichelleO says:

        I have to admit, Professor, that these four people have always struck me as odd. Maybe because there seems to be some sexual tension between Zimmerman and his half-sister, along with the information that he possibly molested his younger cousin and another girl in the family. What’s really creepy is that the Ostermans and the Zimmermans sort of look alike. The women kinda favor and behave like slavish Stepford Wives to their stupid husbands: two men who are psychological twins in their belief that they are rootin-tootin cowboys.

        • Brown says:

          OMG so on point. GZ loves himself so much that Shellie can be a female version of himself. In another words he married himself.

      • Tee says:

        Lol! U will soooo right about that one!

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Some where in that night, Osterman is moving around. How close by? How much does he know? Who knows? We do know that he assisted Shelly in removing GZ’s truck from the scene, we know he knew better than to do that. But, do we know that Shellie decided on her own that GZ’s truck needed to be removed from the scene? Or was that Osterman’s advice?

      Quite naturally and very uncharacteristic of a LEO, Osterman leaves the scene without argument when asked to do so. Obviously he doesn’t want to do anything that would make his presence “memorable”. Things that make one go Hmmm.

  8. MichelleO says:

    NO GREAT BODILY HARM TO ZIMMERMAN. FIREARM USED UNJUSTIFIABLY.

  9. FYI: We just hit 1,000 pages of comments and 19,984 comments for the blog!

    We’re also close to 250,000 views.

    Thanks to all of you for making this a great place to be.

  10. Malisha says:

    The co-conspirator idea is interesting to me in another way: Single individuals never were very effective as lynch mobs or as posse’s out making their own laws and enforcing them on others, because as individuals, they would have to face risk. There would be safety in numbers. I believe that it was really obvious to anyone who might have seen Trayvon that night (Osterman, Taaffe, Shellie), as it was obvious to George, that Trayvon was (a) unarmed; and (b) minding his own business; and (c) NOT dangerous. A person who really was up to no good, for instance, would NOT have:

    1. worn white sneakers;
    2. hung around once a person in a car was watching him;
    3. been “just lookin’ about” at the houses; or
    4. carried a plastic bag.

    George is not exactly a MENSA member. But he’s probably watched enough cop shows to really be able to spot a dangerous type of guy, and if Trayvon were really dangerous-looking, George
    would not have gotten out of his vehicle even if he was armed with an uzi. First of all, as all TV cops know, one criminal will appear when there really is a second one BEHIND YOU, so you’re not likely to be able to handle it without “back-up” — hence the reason cops work with partners when there’s danger. No, George knew what he was doing; he was armed and dangerous and he was picking someone out who was NEITHER armed NOR dangerous. After all, George wasn’t looking for a fight at all, much less a fair fight. He was looking for someone to cave in, quiver and shake, scrape and bow. Oops. He might have played that one wrong. But even if he DID go it alone, it was not what he bargained for.

    It is my hope that “not what he bargained for” describes the rest of the story. And then the post mortem of the event can be even more educational to the puffed-up armed-to-the-teeth cowards among us who think they can not only kill their chosen victims but then give birth to their chosen stories to explain it after the fact.

    • You said,

      “George knew what he was doing; he was armed and dangerous and he was picking someone out who was NEITHER armed NOR dangerous. After all, George wasn’t looking for a fight at all, much less a fair fight. He was looking for someone to cave in, quiver and shake, scrape and bow. Oops. He might have played that one wrong. But even if he DID go it alone, it was not what he bargained for.”

      I’ve been suspecting this is what happened for a long time.

      • bettykath says:

        This makes it sound like murder 1. Just detaining Trayvon for the cops wouldn’t make Zimmerman a hero once the cops had the opportunity to talk with Trayvon. They would have found out that Trayvon was legitimately in the community, there were no open burglaries, Trayvon had done nothing wrong and he was being detained by the weird guy that had been following him for several minutes. The only way for GZ to be a hero is if his claim that Trayvon was a thug and a suspect. was accepted at face value, that is, no Trayvon to speak for himself at the moment.

    • JUN says:

      If you look at the history on George, he has had a habit of targeting people for his bullying purposes

  11. Watt4Bob says:

    “I once knew a man
    who told so many lies
    he had a different story
    for every set of eyes

    How could he remember
    who he was talking to
    I know it isn’t me
    I hope it isn’t you”

    A responsible parent would have taught GZ to never lie.

    He’s not ‘equipped’.

  12. rachael says:

    Jr. will finally STFU!

    • Will wonders never cease.

      Good for O’Mara finally making an effort to control an out-of-control RZ, Jr., wreaking havoc with his case.

      • Tzar says:

        O’Mara is neck deep in this bullshit. His tirades about race coincided too well with juniors. He ain’t fooling no one

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Good, one down!

      Everyone has good reasons why we should believe that GZ probably acted alone. But there is one big problem with that, GZ can’t seem to differentiate on his own, what needs to be verbalized, from what he can merely think.

      He thinks he can follow someone, and it’s alright as long as he doesn’t think of what he’s doing in terms of following.

      He doesn’t realize that in a physical world, things happen at rates, and that rates have limits and limits create timelines. You can’t just place someone anywhere on a map, where you happen to need them to be at any given point in time, they have to be capable of actually moving from one place to another in the allotted time.

      Otherwise you get anomalies like Trayvon skipping at 16 mph.

      That, and the appearance that TM was very likely at the mailboxes long before GZ ever saw him, says that GZ had notification. The question is, who notified him? Tchoupi’s analysis shows a car coming down RVC west at the right time, “patrolling” back and forth in front of the clubhouse, as if looking for someone, then suddenly taking up a position with a good view of the mailboxes. No car parks at the clubhouse where GZ says he did. Nor does any car come down RVC west and spend any time near Taaffe’s, as would have been necessary for GZ to view the events he relates to having seen take place there.

      When GZ doesn’t have someone assisting him, his stories go over the proverbial cliff. They get more and more bizarre the more he says. So it’s likely he either had someone in his car hiding while he made the NEN call, feeding him cues, or he had another communications device, with someone listening and feeding him cues.

      “White Tee Shirt” is probably someone in a white tee shirt, than just a misspeak or other mistaken impression. It’s easy enough to contrive. Wear a white tee shirt and go out side, with a dark sweater or wind breaker in your hand. No one will see it. As you step back into the shadows, simply don the dark garment and presto you’ve disappeared. It works the other way too, put a light or white garment over a dark one, held together with velcro like garments strippers wear, a simple tug and the white garment is gone! You disappear into the dark.

      Alas, these are the only clues we’re likely to get, since no one is going to volunteer to be tried for murder. Nor is GZ, likely to give up anyone, since that would only dig him into a deeper hole than he’s already in. Worse yet, the poor job of investigating that was done, has likely let whatever gossamer evidence there was, disappear.

      Our best bet is to keep this kind of thing on the back burner, and get back to cooking the main course.

      • Xena says:

        So it’s likely he either had someone in his car hiding while he made the NEN call, feeding him cues, or he had another communications device, with someone listening and feeding him cues.

        Or, ShelLIE was in the car with Osterman on her cell phone.

  13. Malisha says:

    Song: as per http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpC39vkSiEY

    Whites do it,
    Blacks do it,
    Joe’s and Jane’s and Jews and Jack’s do it,
    Folks do it,
    they learn to hate.

    These do it,
    Those do it,
    Folks with buttons on their clothes do it,
    Some do it, some learn to hate.

    Girls do it,
    Guys do it,
    Folks who practice telling lies do it,
    It’s common, folks learn to hate.

    Oh if you have an ancestor
    whose skin tone ain’t the same,
    That doesn’t mean that you’re exempt
    from the “hate the other guy” game!

    ’cause
    Dems do it,
    Repubs do it,
    Members of the finest clubs do it,
    Folks do it,
    Folks learn to hate.

    • grahase says:

      Take a bow. Nice sound and easy to dance to.

      • Malisha says:

        Dance, dance!

        Hey LLMPapa, what about a little video of Frank Taaffe, where he was showing the news cameras the place where he said George “became the victim”? Set to music, I think that little clip would be adorable.

        “RIGHT HERE, George, became the victim!”

        Another little clip that’s adorable is when Singleton and Serino are interviewing George and Singleton says, “so you want to pretend — I mean, you…”

  14. Malisha says:

    Oh I always found it astonishingly stupid to say that George Zimmerman could not have been racist and/or could not have committed a hate crime because he was “part Hispanic,” whatever that means. Anybody can hate. The most stupid, ignorant, low-level, undeveloped, disreputable, low-class people can still manage to hate. It ain’t nearly as hard as you may think. Everyone can do it; it is a true equal opportunity activity. “Half Hispanics” do it; whites with Black ancestors and Blacks with white ancestors can do it; I feel a song comin’ on…

    • rayvenwolf says:

      Not only that but that black in his heritage is from people he never met. I’ve looked at the pic and honestly you really cannot tell if the man is african dark or native dark. But yes you are completely right. I’ve pointed out to people that tried to use the he’s a minority he can’t be a racist line that yes he can. Being a racist/bigot knows no racial or cultural bounds and there has been heat for decades between blacks and hispanics.

      • Xena says:

        Being a racist/bigot knows no racial or cultural bounds and there has been heat for decades between blacks and hispanics.

        Ahhh. I had an experience with this. Knew a Puerto woman once — beautiful chocolate like a Hersey bar, but she didn’t want to be mistaken for Black. Asked her why. She responded that AA’s came through a history of the worst slavery in the world and were enslaved much longer than Blacks in the islands. Since slaves in the islands had been free much longer than American slaves, they were “ahead” of AAs.

        IOWs, she had fallen into the prejudicial mindset that AAs of her generation were not as educated or successful because their past generations were not educated and not allowed to own anything.

  15. For those who claim Zimmerman can not be racist because of his background of Hispanic and possibly Black…

    Start at 00:20 mark http://youtu.be/Q8RHxv0bxzo

    • Xena says:

      Amazing, isn’t it?

    • JUN says:

      Hitler was jewish and look at him

      • Malisha says:

        OUCH OUCH JUN Hitler was not Jewish. He had some Jewish blood according to his own paranoid fantasies about one of his female ancestors having been raped by a Jew who employed her, but that would put the “Jewish blood” on his PATERNAL side of the family and according to Jewish law, one is a Jew if and only if one’s MOTHER is a Jew, unless of course one volulntarily converts to Judaism, which is not easy. And Hitler would have never been allowed to convert because as it is, we have enough crazies and don’t need to solicit for any extras. Zimmerman is not Jewish. Hitler was not Jewish.

        OK, I’m over my little fit now.

        Having a Black ancestor is not an inoculation against racism.
        Having a Jewish ancestor is not an inoculation against antiSemitism.
        Having a sane ancestor is not an inoculation against being a bull goose looney crazy-ass bonkofiliac, either.

      • Jun says:

        I heard he was Jewish. Either way, if he was, he was my example that being a certain race does not stipulate an ineptitude toward’s the mindset of racism.

      • grahase says:

        Jesus Christ was Jewish.

      • jd says:

        If Christ was jewish, how come he has a Mexican name? (snark)

      • Malisha says:

        Oh Jesus Christ (in Hebrew, Yehoshuah Ben Josef if I am not mistaken) was a Jew, was not prejudiced against anyone really, and was (if I may say so) a great credit to the Jews. He was one of the top scholars of his day if not THE top scholar from among the “common folk” of his time and place. He was highly respected and at times quite seriously envied by others who felt they were entitled to more respect for their scholarship than he naturally earned from all the right-thinking intellectuals. He was a significant leader of a very respectable intellectual contingent and he was widely known as a righteous and admirable person. He never turned away from Judaism or became anything other than a Jew. He did not ask to be deified and he did not reject the Hebrew religion per se at any time, although he did argue with some of the other scholars about how it should have been applied or what certain parts of it meant. ANY SCHOLAR does that. Jesus Christ was a Jew and one of whom I am personally proud.

  16. For those who claim Zimmerman can not be racist because of his background of Hispanic and possibly Black…

    Start at 00:20 mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8RHxv0bxzo&feature=related

  17. dremn2004 says:

    follow

  18. Lonnie Starr says:

    Following of course, of course!

  19. Xena says:

    8. Why would Taaffe leave windows and doors opened and unlocked when he is a NW person himself and living beside a commonly used cut-through.

    Because he doesn’t own anything worth stealing??? 🙂

    • jm says:

      8. Why would Taaffe leave windows and doors opened and unlocked when he is a NW person himself and living beside a commonly used cut-through.

      Xena says: “Because he doesn’t own anything worth stealing???”

      I thought it may be because he was drunk.

    • grahase says:

      Xena – you are probably right – Taffee probably doesn’t own anything of value. One thing that has always bothered me though. I make a pretty good wage and could not afford to live in a house in a gated community and have two nice-looking vehicles with little money owed on credit cards. Zimmerman knows how to handle money and I don’t, I guess.

      • Xena says:

        @grahase.

        Xena – you are probably right – Taffee probably doesn’t own anything of value. One thing that has always bothered me though. I make a pretty good wage and could not afford to live in a house in a gated community and have two nice-looking vehicles with little money owed on credit cards. Zimmerman knows how to handle money and I don’t, I guess.

        GZ called the cops on his landlord once. His landlord saw him in a store and asked about paying past due rent. GZ told the cops that the house was in foreclosure and he didn’t need to pay rent. Maybe the house was in foreclosure because GZ was not paying rent!?!

        In July 2011, Zimmerman received over $18,000 from a defendant in a civil case. He did not inform his attorney, nor pay fees and costs from that money. His attorney had regularly reported status to the court setting forth that the money was expected sometime in calendar year 2012.

        On April 6, 2012, Zimmerman’s attorney filed a status report with the federal district court setting forth that the trustee in the bankruptcy case for the defendant informed him that a check had been issued to Zimmerman in July 2011. A copy of the negotiated check is included with the report. Those documents are available at the following on my blog.
        http://blackbutterfly7.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/deception-of-a-potted-palm/

        That following weekend, Zimmerman launched his website asking for donations.

        As we now know, Zimmerman spent about $38,000 of the donated money to pay past due bills, repay loans of which $3,500 went to his parents, and acquire cell phones and WiFi with contracts paid years in advance.

        Is he good handling money? IMO, no.

        • cielo62 says:

          What do you think about a theory posted on another thread that GZ has some sort of addictions? That’s a lot of money to burn through without anything to show for it.

          • Xena says:

            @cielo62.

            What do you think about a theory posted on another thread that GZ has some sort of addictions? That’s a lot of money to burn through without anything to show for it.

            On his MySpace page is a pic of GZ where he appears messed up high — possibly alcohol. GZ is ADHD. Adderall is addictive.

            Can’t and won’t say in a positive way that GZ has an addiction but will say he had a reason for not going to the ER that night, and it was not associated with any insurance co-pays or deductibles. Once he signed those papers for medical treatment, he was subject to cooperate. It wasn’t just that his little boo-boos were not serious but he didn’t want blood and/or urine taken.

            If he was putting stuff up his nose, he would not want to go to the ENT specialist either.

    • Malisha says:

      Xena, he might be scared someone won’t steal; they’ll come in to bring stuff they have no room for and leave it there! His place might be considered a DUMP.

    • LLMPapa says:

      Do these words sound familiar?

      “….they asked me if I could see where he went….and I said, no.”

      “….they said, okay, can get to where you can see?”

      “….they needed the address….I don’t know why, adrenalin was rushing, a thousand things went through my mind….I gave them what I thought was my address….”

      “….he looked at me….and then ran around the back.”

      Sounds like a well rehearsed script, doesn’t it?

      It should. Not only was this general outline used by Mr. Zimmerman on 2/26, these words are actually from his statement to Serino on 2/29 regarding the “incident” at his pal, Taffee’s house.

      http://www.justicequest.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1599644&postcount=26

      I did this lil vid a while back, but never had published it till just now. Listen to what Taffee has to say about that “incident” and how it stacks up to a few facts of interest.

      Isn’t it interesting that George says he saw Trayvon for the FIRST time at the same place?

      • Xena says:

        Hi LLMPapa. I feel so honored communicating with you — giddy like a young girl being introduced to a celebrity. I so admire your talent and unceasing work.

        Sounds like a well rehearsed script, doesn’t it? It should. Not only was this general outline used by Mr. Zimmerman on 2/26, these words are actually from his statement to Serino on 2/29 regarding the “incident” at his pal, Taffee’s house

        In GZ’s call about that, he also says “I don’t know what his deal is.” We heard that again on his NEN call about Trayvon.

        The OS has the date transposed — it should be 2/02/12, but it’s the second from the last recording. It’s also another demonstration for how he did not want to give his address — no one around listening that time.

        http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-sues-nbc-911-edit-20121004,0,7280887.story

      • Thanks for sharing the video with us.

        Yes, a script indeed.

      • JUN says:

        I feel it was staged from the beginning but at the same time Zimmerman is a hyper paranoid racist who has called the police on black teenagers for no good reasonable reason. Zimmerman should thank his dad for letting the world know that Zimmerman generalizes when he said that Zimmerman would target Asians if Asians were whom he suspected. Combine a mentally unbalanced and depraved mind with a long history of sociopathic bullying and you have George.

      • LLMPapa says:

        Thanks Xena, both for your compliment, and the link. I wasn’t aware of “I don’t know what his deal is” being in that call.

        I downloaded it, and don’t be too surprised if there’s some side by side comparison snips coming in the next few days.

        • Xena says:

          I downloaded it, and don’t be too surprised if there’s some side by side comparison snips coming in the next few days.

          (giggle, giggle, giggle)
          If anyone can do it, you can. I anxiously await.

      • LLMPapa says:

        I’ve always thought it was interesting that even though he had his gun AND a hundred pound dog, Mr. Zimmerman didn’t show any desire whatsoever to follow the perp at his pal’s house on 2/2.

        He told told the dispatcher this “suspicious guy” was a black male, didn’t he? Wonder why he didn’t follow this dude?

        Come to think of it, I don’t remember hearing the word “young”, as in a kid, as in his late teens, with the descriptive label of “black male” in THIS call.

        Odd what trips the trigger of courage in a self appointed Captain, huh?

        • Xena says:

          Odd what trips the trigger of courage in a self appointed Captain, huh?

          YES!! GZ also said that he had seen the man around the community on garbage day, so he had been watching him. On garbage day, someone else could have been breaking into a house right under his nose, and GZ would have been watching that one guy.

      • Brown says:

        LLMPapa,
        I want to thank you so much for your videos. They are short and to the point.

      • Tzar says:

        I am a huge fan and admirer of llmSpapa’s work
        I thought the call was scripted first time I listened to the NEN call (“murder by cop”, I believe is the name of that script : “hand on waist band/looks on drugs/up to no good”)

      • Patricia says:

        @ LLLMPapa –

        Is that where Taaffe got the pearls?

        He looks just darling in pearls …

  20. grahase says:

    There are many odd circumstances and coincidences in this case:

    1. Why were the only security cameras that would show comings and goings be non-operational.
    2. Why was it not reported and corrected. George Zimmerman knew they were not working.
    3. How did Zimmerman know they were not working.
    4. Why did Frank Taaffe go on national television recounting the tale of the Zimmerman story as though he knew what had happened, even going to the site and explaining how it happened.
    5. Why was Shellie allowed to remove the vehicle Zimmerman had used.
    6. Why was Osterman at the scene within moments of the shooting and allowed to speak to the police and others.
    7. Why did Smith not secure the scene and allowed Zimmerman to converse with witnesses.
    8. Why would Taaffe leave windows and doors opened and unlocked when he is a NW person himself and living beside a commonly used cut-through.
    9. Why would Zimmerman call Taaffe to give his condolences to Taaffe about the loss of his long-deceased son within a couple of days after the shooting when Zimmerman was hiding out at Ostermans.
    10. Why is a key found at the T, yet the flashlight was next to the body of Trayvon if the fight started at the T.
    11. Why were the earbuds from Trayvon’s phone in his pocket and his phone found elsewhere.
    12. What are the voices heard in the background whilst Zimmerman was on the NEN call and what are these voices saying.
    13.

    These are but a few from the top of my head. I will go through my notes because there are a many Osterman and Taaffe questions and coincidences yet to be answered.

    • rayvenwolf says:

      Grahase you bring up some good points.
      1. HOA being lazy/cheap. Cameras were probably old and needed to be upgraded.
      2. See above, plus depending on how long they had been out of order, its possible they could have taken an insurance hit if found out.
      3. Because GZ has his nose so far up everyone’s behinds and makes their business his own.
      4. Because he listened to his friend, Jim, Johnny, and Jack(he’s an alcoholic with impulse issues)
      5. Has that been proven for sure yet? If she did, she would have had to move two vehicles that night as Osterman claims she was visiting her dad.
      6.He hauled buns from home SheLie’s behest and did the talking for her because she was so shaken up.
      7. Because someone isn’t worth his badge or paycheck.
      8. See #4
      9. Oh there is very much more to that story. It was neither the son’s birthday or even the anniversary of his death.
      10. I think GZ tried to grab Trayvon, slipped, fell and lost the keys, with btw the very turned on flashlight that would not have turned on by itself. Apparently the second flashlight is thought to belong to the witness who came out, HOWEVER why would he put that flashlight on the ground?
      11. I’d have to look at them again but if they weren’t dual buds for listening to music and using the phone Trayvon would have taken them out to use his phone.
      12. Got nothing on that one.

      Overall there is more to this that anyone is up on. The only one who knows for sure is George and he’s not going to talk. Why?
      1. Misguided loyalty.
      2. Fear of the possibility of the charges being upgraded regardless of him cooperating.
      3. Opinions of the masses – No one is going to be backing him up if it comes out the whole thing was planned from the start and that he shot Trayvon to try and cover his ass and everyone else’s. Because of course Trayvon would have been able to tell the things GZ has left out if he were alive.

      If anyone else was involved my money is on Taffee and SheLie. Osterdude is a lil too clean for something like this. Frank has his issues and SheLie is clearly willing to do whatever her husband tells her to do.

    • grahase says:

      rayvonwolf – I implore you not read the Osterman saga for evidence. His statements to LE and Zimmermans interviews sworn under oath are the supposed truth. Osterman can write whatever he wants in a book of fiction – a book of fiction not authorized by the subject.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        Oh I’m not reading it for evidence, that book was a hot mess. It was more – well this is ONE version of events. If anything it more likely that Osterdude moved GZ’s vehicle, he had the opportunity when he supposedly left to go clean up dog vomit. I say based on the fact Osterman claim he was out walking the dogs with his wife when he got the call. In that amount of time he was gone, she’s suddenly too sick to clean up after the dogs?

    • JUN says:

      Zimmerman may have purposely damaged the camera. They should check it for his prints to see if he did or any of his NW gang

  21. Malisha says:

    I don’t think it is at all impossible that Osterman, Taaffe, Shellie or someone else was involved in some wacko fool plan to have George prove, once and for all, that it was essential for him to patrol RTL with a loaded gun. I believe there were complaints about him and he was “back up against the wall” with certain folks (including perhaps Mr. Rashada, who I believe owned his home) in the community who felt he was out of line and way too aggressive, as well as racist. I think there was trouble brewing in the NW and even at the HOA itself. It is a very “likely” scene, as backdrop, that George and others wanted him to heroically “bring in his mark” on the night he killed Trayvon. But was anyone an actual co-conspirator in the crime he ultimately committed? I’d have to say that although it is not impossible, at this point in time it may be impossible to prove, since any conspiracy would have necessarily included then Police Chief Bill Lee and thus, all evidence of it would have been already compromised or destroyed.

    Therefore, I think it is a “blind alley” and not worth pursuing. If George is going to take a fall for someone else’s wrongdoing as well as his own, too bad.

    I sure hope all those in the SPD and prosecutor’s office, however, do get nailed by the feds. They might not be real criminal conspirators but they were, IMO, cover-up agents and therefore “accessories after the fact.”

    • grahase says:

      Could it be part of a plan to have more than a NW Program in effect in the complex because of the rise in criminal activity.Could it be a plan to implement hired security for someone who can legally carry a concealed weapon and monitor the comings and goings and other activities going on within the neighbourhood because of kind of people who were moving into the complex.

      • grahase says:

        If you can’t be a cop, security guard is the next best thing, isn’t it. A paid wannabe cop. Couldn’t cut it as a bouncer — too violent and bad-tempered.

      • Xena says:

        Could it be part of a plan to have more than a NW Program in effect in the complex because of the rise in criminal activity.

        IMO, no. Actually, there was no rise in criminal activity in that community. Rather, it was a method to have renters’ harassed to move as they were blamed for decreased property values. Remember Taaffe pointed a finger at renters. GZ was a renter.

        • jm says:

          “Actually, there was no rise in criminal activity in that community. Rather, it was a method to have renters’ harassed to move as they were blamed for decreased property values. Remember Taaffe pointed a finger at renters. GZ was a renter.”

          Why would Frank Taaffe want renter GZ to move? Would it be better to have empty homes rather than rental homes. Without rentals wouldn’t that lead to foreclosures further diminishing home value?

          Regarding Frank Taaffe, was he employed at the time of the shooting? I know GZ was employed but was it a good steady income? Just wondered if they did plot to start a security company, with first client their condo complex. Maybe the increase in criminal activity was a figment of their imagination to encourage the HOA to pay for them to patrol the community rather than pay the Sanford police. Maybe catching an actual “suspect” – like Trayvon Martin – could convince HOA they needed GZ and Taaffe service as armed guards.

          I really am not convinced there is a conspiracy and hate to think it would muddy the waters when it comes to GZ trial for 2nd degree murder.

          PS: I remember reading Taaffe’s house was in foreclosure. Anybody know if that is true and if so did it go into foreclosure after GZ killed Trayvon?

          • Xena says:

            Why would Frank Taaffe want renter GZ to move?

            It’s my impression that Taaffe didn’t know GZ was a renter. Dovial asked GZ if the HOA had policies for homeowners renting, such as conducting background checks. GZ did not get back to her on that issue.

            Would it be better to have empty homes rather than rental homes. Without rentals wouldn’t that lead to foreclosures further diminishing home value?

            Funny you mention that because one of GZ’s phone calls to the cop was on his landlord’s attempt to collect rent. GZ said that the house was in foreclosure and he didn’t have to pay rent. It was a civil matter and another case of eviction filed against GZ. IIRC, he had two eviction cases filed against him before he moved to RTL.

            Regarding Frank Taaffe, was he employed at the time of the shooting?

            Don’t know, but his house is also in foreclosure.

            I know GZ was employed but was it a good steady income?

            Don’t know. In the credit union’s statements are some very small deposits from his employer. Maybe GZ received commission or bonuses. Approving mortgages, re-financing, closing and the like often have jobs where people are paid based on the amount of mortgages approved, sales closed, etc.

            Just wondered if they did plot to start a security company, with first client their condo complex.

            Based on GZ’s demonstrated behavior, and that of his family, they are VERY competitive. I seriously doubt that GZ wanted to start a security company. Rather, he wanted to be Chief of Police.

            Maybe the increase in criminal activity was a figment of their imagination to encourage the HOA to pay for them to patrol the community rather than pay the Sanford police. Maybe catching an actual “suspect” – like Trayvon Martin – could convince HOA they needed GZ and Taaffe service as armed guards.

            JM, put on your civil rights hat for a moment. The racial diversity at RTL changed. It was no longer a White only community. Taaffe’s position was that all problems in that community was because of renters. However, as we know, GZ and ShelLIE were renters whereas Brandy Green is an owner.

            The Newsletters entered into discovery have a repeating paragraph about renters being responsible for obeying HOA rules. The then HOA president got approval from the Board to pay SPD to patrol the community for traffic and HOA violations.

            Why would GZ go to a Black family’s house and tell him that he concealed carried, and that he should get a gun for him and his wife and learn to use it?

            The goal was intimidation and harassment. It had nothing to do with crime. What GZ calls “break-in’s” were unforced entries because someone had left their door or window open. They were thefts, but “break-in’s” sound more serious, more helpless, more forceful.

            If I may share something personally. I once lived in a gated community. A Black neighbor had just had her house built during the winter. Come Spring, she was out laying grass carpet when security stopped in front of her house and watched her. The following day, she received a $50 citation for not having a lawn. The White family across the road didn’t have a lawn either, but they weren’t cited.

            There are other real stories about harassment of minority residents in that gated community, but if I shared them all, it would end up being a book.

            Taaffe had one agenda. GZ had another although it played into that of Taaffe’s. .

          • jm says:

            Xena you really have studied this case way beyond anything I have done, which is pretty casual.

            I don’t know what to make of it other than there are a lot of mentally unbalanced players here who seem to be co-dependent on each other. I can only hope the truth comes out in court but I am not convinced of that after watching the Casey Anthony case.

          • Xena says:

            Xena you really have studied this case way beyond anything I have done, which is pretty casual.

            I tend to look at the discovery documents for what is not so obvious, while leaving the technical stuff up to those technically inclined. Along with that, I listen. It amazes me that GZ was not arrested just subsequent to his re-enactment since it is obviously inconsistent with his NEN call.

            I can only hope the truth comes out in court but I am not convinced of that after watching the Casey Anthony case.

            I didn’t watch the Casey Anthony case and since the jury has spoken, I offer no opinion about it after-the-fact. Here, GZ is charged with 2nd degree murder, and jury instructions provide for a finding of a lesser charge. His goose is cooked. It’s all God’s plan.

      • grahase says:

        Reading information available, Xena, there was no rise in criminal activity. But, George was volunteering to be on the lookout for thugs in an attempt to keep the neighbourhood safe. Prevention is better than cure. Taaffe may not have liked renters because he was an property owner and prices had plummeted. Yes, GZ was also a renter – a renter who did not want to be categorized and blamed for Taaffes plight. Taaffe thought Zimmerman was a fine young man for taking on the task at hand.

        • Xena says:

          Reading information available, Xena, there was no rise in criminal activity.

          Yes, that’s the point. Not only was there no criminal activity on the rise, but in 2012, GZ made one NEN call about a “suspicious guy” going through garbage cans, that he later tried posturing as his intervention that prevented a burglary.

          I wonder if anyone in his family had recently called him a failure? I mean, he had just failed to obtain his 2 yr college degree. He was 28 yrs old at a dead-end. Something was going through GZ’s mind to gain favor, attention, credit, and he was willing to victimize innocent children to reach that goal.

          • jm says:

            “I wonder if anyone in his family had recently called him a failure? I mean, he had just failed to obtain his 2 yr college degree. He was 28 yrs old at a dead-end. Something was going through GZ’s mind to gain favor, attention, credit, and he was willing to victimize innocent children to reach that goal.”

            Before I realized how stupid Robert Jr was, I wondered if GZ was jealous of him. He is the better looking of the two because he doesn’t have GZ’s crazy eyes. If Robert Jr got a degree (in law?) and he couldn’t follow in his father’s footsteps like his brother, maybe this brought out anger issues and a competitiveness even without the family telling GZ he is a loser. And then there is his wife, ShelLIE, who seems to have her own image issues and according to a neighbor, she really didn’t go to nursing school, was a drop-out, and a “stay-at-home” student. (Don’t know what that means exactly).

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @Xena: Something set this off, that is clear. Who knows maybe GZ was looking at their mounting bills, or even as others have posted the neighbors were getting tired of his schtick. You’ve got two able bodied people in a home and only one is working. SheLie could have pulled double duty – using her cosmetology license and bringing in income AND working on her schooling. Is it hard? Oh yeah, but it can be done. The fact was she wasn’t was left all the burden on Georgie who wasn’t cutting it in school to be the man and the bread winner. That’s not bad, if you live within your means, but we know how well money and these two get on.

        Gz saw this as a chance to be the man and be respected by his peers and neighbors. His attitude post shooting shows that when he said “This will all blow over.” No matter what any of his friends or family say, that to me shows a man who was no in any way moved, shaken or concerned by what he done and the possible trouble he could be in. He didn’t give a thin dime about taking Trayvon’s life or the family he destroyed.

        • Xena says:

          @Rayvenwolf.

          @Xena: Something set this off, that is clear. Who knows maybe GZ was looking at their mounting bills, or even as others have posted the neighbors were getting tired of his schtick. You’ve got two able bodied people in a home and only one is working. SheLie could have pulled double duty – using her cosmetology license and bringing in income AND working on her schooling. Is it hard?

          Ahhh. But remember what Osterman said about advising GZ to always carry? So the children couldn’t get to it. GZ and ShelLIE have no children. GZ worked during the day and said he did not take his gun with him to work. Was ShelLIE babysitting in the evenings?

          I wonder if ShelLIE’s cosmetology license was valid? There’s also a chance that they were a one car family until GZ received the check in July 2011 from his civil case that he might have used to purchase a vehicle? Maybe she did not have transportation to work???

          He didn’t give a thin dime about taking Trayvon’s life or the family he destroyed.

          Of course not. It was God’s plan, remember? It’s also God’s plan that GZ wears a GPS ankle bracelet while awaiting trial for 2nd degree murder; that ShelLIE is charged with perjury and is now awaiting trial; that donations to the “defense fund” have dwindled; that GZ’s siblings are unemployed and his parents and grandmother live like vagabonds.

      • Malisha says:

        Yeah, if you think of it, a plan might go like this:

        “Hey if I get everyone freaked out about all the crime in the neighborhood, and I get myself appointed to prevent all that crime, I won’t have to worry about the landlord evicting me or collecting the rent of anything like that because I’ll end up in a paid apartment, responsible for the safety of the whole community. THEN if I call in to the cops and tell the somebody stole a bike, they’ll come over here and make an arrest, and those assholes won’t always get away any more. And then, nobody will stand there and say ‘that bike wasn’t stolen’ and humiliate me. I’ll get this place straightened out. Nobody’s doing what they should be doing. And Shellie and me can have a good business we run out of our apartment and we won’t have any more financial problems and I’ll start getting my respect. All I have to do is make those cowards shut up who are complaining about me patrolling with my side-arm. They NEED ME to patrol with my side-arm. They don’t realize it yet, but they will soon. I’ll go clean up this neighborhood. They’ll see; they’ll change their tune. Those guys who are blowing off their mouths against me will get a foot shoved down their throats soon enough.”

        Yeah. We’ll show THEM. I’m gonna go find me some f*cking punks to discipline. I’ll show THEM what kinda stuff George ZIMMERMAN is made of. Yeah, just you lily-livered wusses wait.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @Xena: I guess she’s too good for the bus? Also she could have worked out of her home.

        And yeah since its been so long since since she was active odds are she hasn’t renewed it. Maybe I’m just looking at this from a too practical and realistic standpoint. Lol of course now with the perjury issue if she’s convicted or pleads she has to report that to the cosmetology board as well.

        • Xena says:

          Zimmerman married a White woman because his mother encouraged the children to marry White, as though there was some advantage. It worked for her, right?

          ShelLIE married Zimmerman probably because “retired magistrate judge” sounds like marrying into money.

          Then they lived with her mom for years. Dream shattered.

          So, why should she work and financially support a White Hispanic when she could have stayed single and lived with mom? What’s love got to with it?

      • George Zimmerman had a hero fantasy…..I believe George had a lot of fantasies about being a lot of things………What he actually was, was a domineering control-freak loser pretending to be a cop.

  22. Tzar says:

    1. what are those car door sounds at the start of the NEN call?

    2. who is George talking to when he seems to whisper, “the keys are in my truck” while on the NEN call?

    3. what is that knocking sound shortly after GZ whispers those words? is it a door?

    4. why does that guy say, “he warned me off”, to his wife after seemingly running in the house, during the “scream” 911 call?

    5. why does it sound like there are other voices, shortly after the shot, in the background of the “screams 911” call?

    just questions

    • Xena says:

      1. what are those car door sounds at the start of the NEN call?

      Based on the clubhouse vids, there are some who think that GZ was out of his truck walking around the clubhouse with a flashlight in effort to locate Trayvon. Once he did, that he got into his truck and made the NEN call. In his re-enactment, GZ says that ONCE HE GOT THROUGH to NEN, that he parked at the clubhouse.

      2. who is George talking to when he seems to whisper, “the keys are in my truck” while on the NEN call?

      Try as I have, I know he says something but can’t make it out. My question is, if his keys were in his truck, how did they end up at the T? Someone would have needed to bring/throw them there — maybe so he could pick them up and get back home because they were leaving????

      3. what is that knocking sound shortly after GZ whispers those words? is it a door?

      Trent Sawyer and LLMPapa seem to believe it is knocking on a door. IIRC, it is Trent who suggests that it might be Jeremy’s house. Since the first 911 call came from that house, it is possible that Jeremy and his wife knew what GZ planned before he actually confronted Trayvon. Thus far, it is my opinion that GZ is banging on his flashlight in effort to get it to work. That leads to the question, why would he be so desperate to get his flashlight to work AFTER he ran to (according to his word) RTC?

      4. why does that guy say, “he warned me off”, to his wife after seemingly running in the house, during the “scream” 911 call?

      Possibly because GZ said to Jeremy (in so many words) to mind his own business. Remember, GZ said that the person stated he was calling 911 and GZ responded not to, that he had already done so. He wanted a private citizen to help him restrain Trayvon. Does that sound like being in a situation needing to exercise self-defense? IMO, it doesn’t. If someone was killing me I would have shouted “Stop him.”

      5. why does it sound like there are other voices, shortly after the shot, in the background of the “screams 911” call? just questions

      The only voice I hear is that of Jeremy’s, but I do hear GZ’s voice, very distinctly, just before the shot is fired and while Trayvon is screaming. The investigators heard it too and sent the tape of that call to the FBI to determine what GZ is saying to Trayvon.

      • Brown says:

        Per Betty Kath instructions I will be hooking up the computer line to the big screen. I have a theory about those clubhouse video, especially where you can see the reflection of GZ. I won’t get into too much detail, but I will say that it has to do with the 7-11 video the bank video and the EPhool video. If my hunch is correct, someone from that 7-11 video or bank video saw Trayvon at the mailboxes, maybe Shellie or Sondra or maybe Jeremy and gave GZ the heads up. I have pictures for everyone except for Jeremy. The 7-11 video is an hour long. Why? Same thing with the Bank Video why all that time? Why not just the snippet of Osterman? Why not just the snippet of Trayvon at the 7-11 store? It bothers me, the length of those videos. I have to find a time when I can get my husband out for a couple of hours so I can dissemble all the wires and hook up the computer to the big screen, so he doesn’t think I am crazy. : ^ )

    • roderick2012 says:

      2. who is George talking to when he seems to whisper, “the keys are in my truck” while on the NEN call?

      Could it have been Shellie?

      Maybe that was the reason Zimmerman was so anxious to have the witness call her and tell her that he had shot someone because she saw him leave the truck and chase Trayvon and he wanted her to go home before the police arrived and questioned her and charged her as an accessory and find out what lead up to Zimmerman following Trayvon in his car and then on foot.

        • jm says:

          My theory is ShelLIE started off to go shopping with GZ as usual and then he spotted Trayvon and changed his role to the armed NW captain and sent her home.

          If you look at ShelLIE’s mug shot she has stone-cold dead eyes. I believe she knows the truth about GZ and I was hoping if her perjury case comes up she may be coerced to talk rather than get prison time and a felony charge. Is her perjury case coming up soon? Can they continue it until after the GZ trial?

          Did GZ ever mention why ShelLIE did not go grocery shopping that Sunday since he said she usually goes with him?

          • Xena says:

            My theory is ShelLIE started off to go shopping with GZ as usual and then he spotted Trayvon and changed his role to the armed NW captain and sent her home.

            If ShelLIE was in the truck with GZ when they left to “go shopping,” she would have stayed in it, IMO. There was no discussion of “Take the truck home while I follow this kid” before GZ got out of his truck and did just that.

            If you look at ShelLIE’s mug shot she has stone-cold dead eyes.

            If you look at the Credit Union’s statement for amounts she spent out of her account at clinics, it gives us an idea as to why.

            I believe she knows the truth about GZ and I was hoping if her perjury case comes up she may be coerced to talk rather than get prison time and a felony charge.

            ShelLIE might have been hoping for a plea deal in exchange for talking, but it’s my impression that she is too co-dependent and afraid of the Zimmerman family.

            Is her perjury case coming up soon? Can they continue it until after the GZ trial?

            She has a hearing this week. I forget the date. Chances are there will be another continuance.

            Did GZ ever mention why ShelLIE did not go grocery shopping that Sunday since he said she usually goes with him?

            That’s one of his inconsistencies. He said “THEY” always go shopping on Sunday evenings but had not addressed why SHE was not in the truck that evening. In the same way, he fails to mention why and how he dropped his key chain at the T, but managed to shimmy for 40 ft while holding his tactical flashlight.

          • jm says:

            Thanks. Looks like you have really studied the evidence. Also looks like ShelLIE is as damaged as the rest of the Zimmerman clan but with her family dysfunctonal background maybe the Zimmermans are normal to her.

            Is it any of our business why GZ didn’t take ShelLIE with him that night? I mean did investigators even question him about this or will they be able to raise the question at a trial?

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @Jim: Osterdude claims in his book SheLie was at her father’s that night. She supposedly called him while on the way back to R@TL, met up with him and then went over to the scene. From there it was her place to grab stuff then to the police station to sit and wait. Well until MO’s wife insisted he come home and clean up dog vomit because she was too sick to do it and she wanted a clean home for their guests to come home to.

    • shannoninmiami says:

      #1.That IS CLEARLY Osterman on the ATM video! And he had to be in the area because he arrived on the crime scene (WITH shelie) within a few minutes of the shooting, before they took GZ in.

      #2. GZ said they BOTH do the shopping together, every sunday, AFTER they ‘mentor’ the 2 ‘black kids’! I mean that’s what he said to the PoPo, as to what his actions that night, right? his own words!

      #3. Osterman lives in Lake Mary and it would take at least 10-15 minutes for him to get there, especially if he picked up shelie (who was what, 2 blocks away? why didn’t she just walk? ) But i’m not sure of the exact distance between their homes so it could take longer.

      *And another thing, i have suspicions about the 2 couples relationship with each other. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find out they were swingers or maybe GZ and osterman are bi-sexual lovers…( both of my brothers are gay/Bi, although one just got married to a woman. i’m not saying i think homosexuality is genetic, but i also know a few other sets of siblings who are both gay, so it does happen it seems.)

      * also, incase anyone didn’t get the memo. Junior is NOT a Lawyer. LOLOL I’ve been under the impression he was for some reason, but he said he wasn’t a lawyer a few times on the recent radio show Trent posted on Youtube.

      and now i can’t remember what else i was gonna say!!LOLO

      • rayvenwolf says:

        @Shannon, I think we all were because that is what we’ve heard from various sources about Jr. And thank you for that lovely image of them sharing the same bed. I’m having flashbacks to a very visually traumatizing swing party last Halloween.

        @Xena: close enough.

      • shannoninmiami says:

        LOLOL Cos we’re a swingin’ LOLO
        no but really, how many guys actually have standing monthly DATES with each other?? it would make sense cas GZ and whatsherface-Ms.Osterman, are also having lunch together every time they would work together.. ya know, it’s like they all are just super close… and Osterman is so passionate about GZ he said he’d “Die for him” RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS WIFE!! and she didn’t even blink! I found that weird, just wrong! i mean he has a wife and daughter!! Wtf is wrong with that picture??

      • Tzar says:

        for the record let it be known that I said once again that is not Osterman
        lol

        • Xena says:

          @Shannoninmiami and Tzar.

          for the record let it be known that I said once again that is not Osterman lol

          Okay. I’m trying to decide and am leaning to it being Osterman. Could each of you tell me your reasons for why it is or is not Osterman? The only difference I see between the M&I Bank vid and his other appearances are the eyeglasses.

      • Tzar says:

        @ Xena, besides being two bald Caucasian dudes, they look nothing alike. ATM guy is younger and fatter too.

      • Erica says:

        he is too big compared to the police station videos, thats not Mark Ostermanbut I believe the SUV passing is Zimmermans

    • shannoninmiami says:

      @Xena, you don’t see his (osterman) face clear as a bell? I saw it, and so did the police/angela corey, they took the video. He was wearing sunglasses when he was picking up GZ from jail, obviously trying to look like a body guard-which is making me sick thinking about how GZ thought he was some freakin movie star! are those the glasses you’re talking about? Cas it was kinda late when he went to the bank. Remember what time it was? It was around 6-6:30pm, around the time Tray was going to the store.

      But i can’t even speculate if he was with Gz in the car…

      @Lonnie, i wanted to remind you that some of the sounds you hear on the 311 call could be from the operator’s line too.. remember they have other people making noises in the back ground.
      Someone reminded me of that awhile ago when i was trying to hear things too! That’s when i got frustrated because there really is no way for me to know what sound is coming from GZ’s car or what! I just hope the FBI has figured it out!!

      But i swear after watching Trent’s video about the knocking on W11’s back door, i totally believe that for sure! And the lights coming on in the front door seen from the clubhouse video!

      • Xena says:

        @Xena, you don’t see his (osterman) face clear as a bell? I saw it, and so did the police/angela corey, they took the video. He was wearing sunglasses when he was picking up GZ from jail, obviously trying to look like a body guard-which is making me sick thinking about how GZ thought he was some freakin movie star! are those the glasses you’re talking about?

        No, they were regular glasses. He could wear them when off duty.

        But know what? Now that you brought it up, I am reminded about GZ wearing glasses or contacts also. The other night as I was listening to his calls from jail with ShelLIE, she told him that his eyeglasses were being shipped overnight. He said that they had not allowed him to have his contact lenses. That makes me wonder about the evening of 2/26. He wasn’t wearing glasses. If he was wearing contacts, how did they remain in with all that head bashing and face punching?

      • thejbmission says:

        I think the glasses are readers. Osterman was using them making a bank transaction which is the reason the prosecution knows for a fact that it is Osterman. The video is in discovery for a reason; Corey has the transaction with Osterman’s name and acct. number with a video time stamped to match. It’s him.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Yes it’s true that we don’t know which side of the line the sounds are from. I only posed my theory because the indications for it are strong in the evidence, they were very early on, before we received the evidence dumps. After the evidence dumps they only became stronger. There are obviously pieces missing.

        I’m not yet where I can let myself listen to all of the recordings. Each time I have, I’ve only found that things keep getting worse and worse for Trayvon’s chances to survive.

        Watch this, let me take you back to sometime April, May or June, when all we knew was that GZ was headed out to the store.

        I theorized that he’d be headed to the front gate at about 25 mph or so, perhaps slowing to 15 or 20 as he rounded the turn on RVC northwest.

        So, he’s approaching and going by Taaffe’s at some 22 to 36 ft/sec. there’s a narrow cut through off to his left, he’s viewing it through a rain speckled drivers side window in the dark, while the road in front of him is turning to the right. The cut-through area at this point is barely 10 feet wide, what are the chances you’re going to see someone moving in that area, in the dark, while you’re trying to drive around a turn in the opposite direction? You’d need to turn your head 90 degrees to the left, while making a right turn. Hardly anything reflexive. So that set the stage for the question, how did GZ really learn of TM’s movements? Since the probability of him spotting him on his way to the store is extremely low.

        Then we got the reenactment, and there GZ indicates that TM’s first location when spotted, is even more obscure than what I had originally imagined. He says he saw him before he had even reached those two cars parked there. Making it impossible for him to have spotted TM there, as he moved at more than 22 feet/second into a slight left, leading quickly into a right turn. His attention would be needed on the road to avoid hitting the curb and to navigate a complex right turn. The darkness, the rain speckled drivers side window, the road and the speed all conspire against his narrative, that he watched as TM walked forward from behind those cars and stood on the grass at curbside, looking around.

        To accomplish that he would have had to have stopped and waited there. But that’s not what he says he did. He says he drove on by and parked at the clubhouse. It’s a 15 second drive, it’s a 1minute 20 second walk, yet he says that TM came along within 5 seconds of him parking there. Okay, a car stopping in front of you, then creeping along as you walk for more than a minute, you’d certainly find that very remarkably odd. But, for some strange reason TM doesn’t mention he’s being followed, when he observes this strange behavior. He only reports, he’s being followed, sometime later, after he’s been sheltering at the mailboxes for some time.

        Then we have Tchoupi’s work. It appears GZ’s car comes down RVC west, traveling north, around the turn, then straight over to TTL, without going out the front gate, or parking at the clubhouse, where his lights should show on cctv. Instead the car passes back west on RVC, turns and makes another pass at the mailboxes, then parks on TTL with the mailboxes in view.

        If this is true, then the whole segment from Taaffe’s place to the clubhouse is a faked story. In fact, the timing of what should be GZ’s car coming north on RVC, does so while TM is already at the mailboxes sheltering. At 6:54, or some 25 minutes after TM has left the 711, on a trip that he can walk in 13 minutes or less! Thus, he’s been sheltering at the mailboxes for at least 12 minutes before GZ arrives and spots him. So, for TM to correctly assess that he’s being followed, GZ has to be making some pretty dramatic following motions.

        But the point is, a car coming down RVC at the proper time for GZ to be leaving for the store, should not be going passed the front gate to TTL and back again. It should have gone right out the front gate, there having been nothing at all to see on RVC.

        That can only mean that GZ did not leave home on his way to the store, but he left home knowing that there was someone he wanted to hunt down out there. Since he can’t see the front or Taaffe’s or the mailboxes from his house, who notified him that someone was out walking in the rain that night?

        If I understand Tchoupi’s work, there aren’t other vehicles to confuse which one is which in the cctv’s. Of course GZ could have left home earlier and driven around with his lights off. But then, why is there a car that makes the moves we’d expect GZ to be making?

        There are other possibilities, of course, that could be someone else who drove that route. But then we really don’t know where GZ parked his truck. It could have moved around with lights off and parked anywhere. Then this segment of the chase was fabricated as well. But we do know that an officer found GZ’s truck parked somewhere near that other vehicle that’s always parked there.
        After all there weren’t a whole lot of vehicles for that officer to canvas and identify. GZ’s truck is quickly removed from the scene, before anyone has a chance to even think about it being evidence.

  23. cielo62 says:

    >^^< fascinating

  24. Xena says:

    Zimmerman slipped up during his re-enactment about Shellie. He said on Hannity, and his dad also said in interviews, that he and Shellie always grocery shop on Sunday evenings. GZ supposedly was going to the store to grocery shop when he saw Trayvon.

    There still remains the M&I Bank video, and it is my opinion that the man on that video at the bank at 6:38 is Mark Osterman. Some say otherwise, but it still leaves the question open as to why the State entered the vid in discovery.

    The State has GZ’s phone records. They have not been made public.

    What I suspect is that Osterman and Shellie were both aware that GZ was going out on a hunt for a “suspect” but it was GZ alone who decided to get out of his truck, follow Trayvon, pick a fight and then kill him.

    • jm says:

      ” What I suspect is that Osterman and Shellie were both aware that GZ was going out on a hunt for a “suspect” but it was GZ alone who decided to get out of his truck, follow Trayvon, pick a fight and then kill him.”

      What I can’t understand is why Zimmerman would go on a “hunt”
      on a rainy Sunday evening when most residents were at home and it seems a very bad time to burglarize a home.

      If the routine was for ShelLIE go shopping with GZ on Sunday evening, why didn’t she go shopping that particular Sunday evening?

      If I had to guess, maybe they were going shopping, GZ spotted Trayvon and after he decided to follow him, she went home.

      Ultimately GZ made his own decisions and should be in prison for at least 2nd degree murder.

      • Xena says:

        What I can’t understand is why Zimmerman would go on a “hunt” on a rainy Sunday evening when most residents were at home and it seems a very bad time to burglarize a home.

        GZ is an opportunist. Around July 2011, the HOA announced in their Newsletter that they were paying the SPD to conduct patrols in RTL for traffic and HOA violations. In August, GZ sought to take advantage of that by going around with a clipboard getting personal info from residents to organize NW. In September, the community officer met with residents about NW.

        Then comes December where GZ failed to graduate. The best he could observe/do for NW was on 1/29/12 when he called NEN about kids playing in the street. Then, on 2/2/12, he called NEN about a guy who he had seen going through garbage on garbage days. Understand that to mean that GZ had observed this person previously AND NOT CALLED NEN. It was the man outside of Taaffe’ house and GZ said in that call, “I don’t know what his deal is.”

        Zimmerman was desperate to convince the HOA that they didn’t need to pay the SPD for patrols, because HE WAS ON PATROL. Effectively, the evening of 2/26/12 was his evening to create a job for himself.

      • rayvenwolf says:

        According to Osterman, SheLie was at her dad’s. His book also blows a hole in the “they always go shopping for the week” together story, by stating that SheLIe eats breakfast while Georgie does not so she shops for breakfast stuff by herself. You know because obviously Georie boy can’t be given a shopping list.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        The rain was increasing all the way from the store to the mail shed and it was getting pretty heavy before Trayvon got there. He probably hurried along at better than the 4.4 ft/sec. and finally ran the last few hundred feet. Putting him there even earlier than the 13 minutes it would take, after leaving 711.
        and not coming though the cut near Taaffe’s.

        I’ll post this timeline here for easy reference:

        5:09:– Trayvon makes call lasting 81 minutes, ends at 6:30

        =================================================
        6:05:– Trayvon leaves home for store. (est. ~16m_walk)

        6:21:54 Trayvon is seen outside the store traveling
        from the East to the West to enter 7 Eleven

        6:24:32 Two minutes later Trayvon leaves the store
        but is not seen outside heading back East

        6:29:19 Trayvon is seen outside heading back East

        6:30:– Trayvon’s 5:09 call ends

        6:30:– Trayvon makes call lasting 13 minutes. ends 6:43

        6:38:– Is that Mark Osterman at the M&I bank? SP has
        taken the video into evidence.

        6:41:– Incoming call lasting 4 minutes ends at 6:45

        6:42:19 approx. At mailboxes: ~3452 feet from 711 @ 4.4ft/sec. 13min.

        6:43:– Trayvon’s 6:30 call ends

        6:45:– Incoming 6:41 call ends

        6:45:– Trayvon makes call lasting 5 minutes ends at 6:50

        6:46 :– Trayvon makes call lasting 2 minutes ends at 6:48

        6:48:– 6:48 call ends

        6:49:– Incoming call lasting 4 minutes ends at 6:53

        6:50:– Trayvon’s 6:45 call ends.

        6:53:– 6:53 call ends

        6:54:– At mailboxes (est. 25 MIN WALKING AT
        4.4ft/second = 6600 FEET
        Trayvon needed only ~13:04 to reach the
        mailboxes from 711.
        Or eta of ~6:42:19 @4.4/ft/sec. walking speed.

        6:54:– Incoming call lasting 18 minutes — ends 7:14:– ?

        This puts him easily and securely at the RATL mailboxes by
        6:54pm with ~564 feet remaining to home via the dog walk.
        A 2 minute 8 seconds walk.

        6:42:19 approx. At mailboxes: ~3452 feet from 711 @ 4.4ft/sec. 13min.

        7:04:– Incoming call last 4 minutes ends 7:08

        7:08:– 7:04 call ends

        7:09:– George calls NEN to report suspicious person.

        7:11:44 GZ: “He’s running.”

        7:12:– TM receives call.
        Phone records show this call ended at 7:16 p.m.
        Police arrived roughly a minute later.

        7:12:– TM tells DD man following, puts hoodie up.

        7:13:– GZ tells police to call him for location.

        7:13:39 GZ ends NEN call

        7:14:– TM’s 6:54 call ends

        7:16:– 7:12 call ends.
        —————————————————————————-
        7:16:11 W11 begin 911 call

        7:16:31 “It sounds like a male” W11

        7:16:41 W3 begin 911 call

        7:16:48 W3 “There’s someone screaming outside”.

        7:16:59 Gunshot W11 911 call
        ———————————————

    • thejbmission says:

      Xena,
      Interesting theory. And lets not forget DeeDee’s statement that TM was aware of GZ following him at least 10 minutes before he called NEN.
      I’m pretty sure that the person at the M&I bank is Osterman because IIRC the video has been entered into evidence and if that’s the case, I’m sure the investigators have Osterman’s transactions corresponding with the video. Just a thought.
      Perhaps Osterman alerted GZ of TM’s presence? GZ was so gung-ho that night, I just have a feeling he was trying to impress his gun toting hero.

      • Xena says:

        @thejbmission.

        Just a thought. Perhaps Osterman alerted GZ of TM’s presence? GZ was so gung-ho that night, I just have a feeling he was trying to impress his gun toting hero.

        The guy on the M&I Bank vid was there at 6:38 p.m. That was around the time Trayvon would be leaving the 7-Eleven. The State has GZ’s phone and phone records. They have not been released to the public. Whomever called GZ, and whomever he called, is certainly to be info that the State has. They would not know the content of the conversation, but would know who called or who was called.

        If Osterman was included in targeting Trayvon, that might be why he decided to rub GZ’s back with a book as his “best friend” because Osterman will turn on GZ in a heartbeat in court. I seriously doubt that Osterman wants to be embarrassed again for falling for a con man.

        Here’s something to think about. Remember when Serino interviewed GZ he mentioned about someone recording the incident? GZ said low and slow that he hoped to God that someone had.

        It could be possible that Trayvon was recording GZ and his truck as he was passing it. “He’s checking me out.” Yeah. Getting it recorded so if anything happened to him, there would be a record of who and what he saw.

        I don’t know about anyone else, but I get excited when contemplating evidence that the State might have that has not been made public.

      • Erica says:

        Did anyone notice the SUV that passed in the bank video? I think that may have been george’s vehicle passing at aroun 6:48 or 6:58. Osterman was not that big, if you compare the police station video, the guy at the bank is much bigger. I think the video is for the passing car that may have been Zimmerman

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