What Does Zimmerman’s Blood Tell Us?

We need to focus today on the information available to us regarding the fatal shot in order to determine as best we can the respective positions of Zimmerman and Martin when Zimmerman fired the fatal shot.

As we do so, we have to keep in mind that there are two bloodstains on Martin’s shirt, which he was wearing under the hooded sweatshirt. DNA analyst Anthony Gorgogne has identified Zimmerman as the source of Stain A. He also concluded that Stain D is a mixed sample of Zimmerman and Martin.

In yesterday’s article on the DNA results, I mentioned that those are the only bloodstains on Martin’s clothing that contain Zimmerman’s DNA. Depending on their location, I concluded that the bloodstains may be the result of dripped blood from Zimmerman’s head as he leaned forward over Martin’s body while he was dead or alive, or transferred blood from his hands as he touched Martin’s shirt.

Note that if we assume the fingers and palms of Zimmerman’s hands were bloody with his own blood, we would expect to see his blood on Martin’s hooded sweatshirt, if he grabbed Martin’s two sweatshirts together with his left hand and pulled them down and slightly to his left as he fired the fatal shot.

Gorgogne did not find Zimmerman’s blood or DNA on the hooded sweatshirt. That probably means he did not have any blood on the underside of his left hand and fingers when he gripped the shirt and sweatshirt or, if he did, he did not transfer it to the sweatshirt.

It also may mean that he did not grip the sweatshirts, although I still believe he did.

Recall that Gorgogne did not detect any of Zimmerman’s blood on Martin’s sweatshirt. Witnesses Mary Cutcher and her friend Selma saw him straddling Martin’s back and leaning forward touching his back and neck with his hands after the shot. Therefore, I do not believe he had any blood on his hands.

No blood is visible on his hands in the photographs taken by police at the station house after the shooting.

That does not mean that blood was not on his hands earlier, however, because the police incredibly permitted Zimmerman to wash up in the washroom at the station house before the photographs were taken. That is inexcusable. It is what it is, however, and we cannot change it.

We do know that Gorgogne identified Zimmerman’s blood on the grip of his Kel Tec 9 semiautomatic handgun. Could that bloodstain have been already present before the incident that resulted in Martin’s death?

For example, DNA preserves indefinitely in a dried bloodstain, so Zimmerman might have deposited his blood via transfer to the grip sometime before the incident with Martin on February 26th. He might not have known it was there. I do not recall seeing any blood on the grip of his gun in the photographs that were recently released. Given PCR’s exquisite sensitivity, not much blood would have to have been present to yield a complete DNA profile.

Now let us take a look at Amy Siewert’s lab report. She is a firearms expert and her report was in the first document dump. She described the locations of the two holes in the sweatshirts and I compared what she wrote to Dr. Bao’s description in the autopsy report regarding the location of the entry wound.

Siewert said the holes in the sweatshirts aligned with each other and were 7 inches below the shoulder/neck seam.

Dr. Bao said the entry wound was 1 inch to the left of the midline and 1/2 inch below the nipple.

I am 1-inch taller and the same weight as Trayvon. I placed a mark on my chest corresponding to the location of the entry wound and then I took one of my white tee-shirts and placed a mark 7 inches below the shoulder/neck seam. I put on the tee-shirt and, using the marl on my chest, I marked the location of the entry wound on the tee-shirt.

I took off the tee-shirt and measured the distance between the two marks.

The two marks are a little over 3 and 1/2 inches apart. The mark representing the hole in the sweatshirts is above and slightly displaced toward the left shoulder.

To perform this comparison with precision, one would need to place the sweatshirts on Trayvon’s body and precisely measure the distance between the holes and the entry wound and determine the angle of their displacement from the vertical.

I could not do that, so I approximated the distance at 3 inches with a displacement toward the left shoulder.

Could my conclusion have been mistaken? I do not think so, but I have to admit that it is certainly possible. Fabrics stretch and there was only so much that I could do to reproduce the state of the State’s evidence.

I hope someone on the prosecution team followed up with Siewert and Dr. Bao to nail down this point as well as the apparent discrepancy between her characterization of the hole as having been caused by the muzzle of the gun in contact with the fabric and his characterization of the shot having been fired from an intermediate range (i.e., 0.5 centimeters to 1 meter).

I note for the record that Dr. Bao described the entry wound as 3/8 inch in diameter with a 2 X 2 area of stippling around the wound.

Stippling is caused by unburned gun powder that enbeds in the wound and its periphery. The farther away the muzzle of the gun, the larger the area of stippling. With handguns there is no stippling apparent when the muzzle of the gun exceeds 1 meter from the entry wound at the time the shot is fired..

Contact wounds characteristically cause the skin to tear. This condition is called starring and it’s caused by the expanding gasses released by the burning gunpowder.

Siewert observed torn fabric that spread out from the holes caused by the shot. She prepared some cutouts using fabric from the two sweatshirts (actually the interior one has been redesignated as a shirt by the DNA analyst) and test fired Zimmerman’s gun using the same ammo from several different distances, including a contact shot. The tearing in the result from the experimental contact shot matched the tearing in the hole in the sweatshirt and that is why she concluded that it was a contact shot.

Dr. Bao did not note any tearing or starring around the entry wound.

D. Vincent di Maio, a respected forensic pathologist and the former Medical Examiner for Bexar County, Texas (San Antonio) reviewed Dr. Bao’s autopsy Report and estimated the muzzle of the gun was 2 to 4 inches from the entry wound when Zimmerman fired the fatal shot.

Dr. Bao characterized the fatal shot as “Directly, front to back.”

That is all the evidence we have.

Consider these questions:

(1) Did Zimmerman grip Martin’s sweatshirt and shirt with his left hand?

(2) If he did not (or even if he did) how did he immobilize Martin so that he could aim and squeeze off the perfect shot to the heart, or was it just a lucky shot?

(3) How and when did Zimmerman sustain the injuries to his nose and the back of his head?

(4) Do you believe the injury to his nose was caused by the recoil of his gun when he fired the fatal shot?

(5) What do you believe explains the presence of Zimmerman’s blood on Martin’s shirt?

(6) What do you believe explains the presence of Zimmerman’s blood on the grip of his gun?

As I said, I hope the prosecution has figured out the significance of the evidence as it is important to the outcome of the case.

I still believe that the agonizing shriek that abruptly ended with the shot and the interrogation and begging that preceded it establish beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was not in imminent danger of being killed or suffering serious bodily injury when he shot and killed an unarmed Martin “evincing a depraved indifference to human life.”

210 Responses to What Does Zimmerman’s Blood Tell Us?

  1. 2dogsonly says:

    How the shot went down by State of the Internet
    You’ll have posted others so if this is repeat I’m sorry but Lordy he is so great!

  2. William Walton says:

    Lonnie, this is exactly why I posted by blog about what Clyde was trying to teach criminolgoy students in that they should keep an open mind because what you thought you saw may not be what actually happened. Read my other responses because I think they substantiate the fact that both were standing when the shot was fired. Not trying to confuse but trying to bring a new perspective to the discussion.,

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      Please do continue, I’m listening, so far you are making points. I haven’t yet seen any evidence that refutes what you have said. If anyone else has, they haven’t pointed to it yet.

      My guess is, you’re saying that if GZ get’s grass stains on his back from laying on the grass (forget the wiggling to escape, there was never anything for GZ to escape from) then where ever TM touched the grass, there should be grass stains there too.

      So far so good. AFAIK there’s not yet any consensus on whether they were both standing or one down, one up, when the shot was fired. So, we should be open to theories about it. Challenging theories with evidence is what we do here.

      We are all free to speculate in the spaces between the evidence points. Once we hit an evidence point, however, the narrative must take it in properly, not ignore it as if it didn’t exist.

      Carry on.

      • William Walton says:

        Very true Lonnie, this is what we do in the world of science. We are given some data and then we have to deduce to determine facts which will complete the puzzle. This is what I have been trying to do. With regards to TM struggling with GZ with a gun pointed at him, I agree. One would think the individual would stand still. However, with TM being 17, he may have thought that if he could just break free, he could run for it. Having two grown sons, at that age, one does not know what they will attempt.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Oh? I don’t know about that, I think at 17 most kids know that a gun can very easily kill them. I sincerely doubt any kid would struggle at gun point, a 3 year old maybe.

          Trayvon had never experienced combat, so what could he envision himself doing by struggling with a man much bigger and stronger than himself and who was pointing a gun at him besides?

          Once you’re at gunpoint there is no “breaking free”, because you can’t out run a bullet, and you don’t want to get hit by one anywhere on your body, which is probably what would happen if you make any sudden moves. You realize that all the gunman has to do is pull the trigger, which he can do before you even move 7 inches, let alone get away.

          Unless I miss my guess, TM would not even wail at gunpoint, because it causes fear not pain. Only pain would make one wail.
          A gun will make one shut up. So we’re missing something else GZ was doing to TM, something that caused him lots of pain.

          • William Walton says:

            Lonnie, Good Points.

          • Patricia says:

            @Lonnie –

            “So we’re missing something else GZ was doing to TM, something that caused him lots of pain.”

            “punishment style” wrist lock? (But he’d have to give up either grasping shirts OR holding gun to get a free hand to do this.)

            Kneeling on Trayvon’s arms? Painful to Trayvon, but leaves both of GZ’s hands free for grasping (L) and firing (R).


      • Pat deadder says:

        Now that I’ve read what sp and defence can do I understand.I so like this blog or whatever it’s called.I’m an old grandmother so not up on all this lingo.I’m not able to offer an intelligent opinion as to the actual events but would like to say I think gz had his gun out from the very beginning. After all he is a coward.Remember he said he wasn’t afraid I think that was to ensure no one thought he already had his gun ready.Perhaps he drew it when he made the big brewhaha about forgetting which pocket he put his cell phone in.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          It’s a “blog” that’s short for: “Web log”. We-b+log= blog as in “crazy talk”. I’m sure you’ve had fun mangling words before, so that’s all it is a mangling of words.

          We’re all sure GZ pulled his gun very early, unfortunately there are no witnesses who saw it, and we don’t have anyone’s word but GZ’s. Of course, that should in no way suggest that we’d put anything past a murderer who’s trying to beat a murder charge.

          We’ve given GZ many breaks, benefit of the doubt, much more so before he lied to the court so blatantly at the bail hearing. Now that he’s lost his credibility, we have to go with what can be confirmed and forget about any claims he’s made. Remember he did this to himself. He decided that he’d rather have the money than the credibility. Now, apparently, he’s lost both.

          • Patricia says:

            @ Lonnie and Pat deadder –

            Not quite “all” are certain GZ pulled the gun early.

            The minute GZ has his Kel-Tec in his hand is the minute he loses (any other) use of that hand.

            The Kel-Tek has no safety. Zimmerman anticipated running that night, after dark, across rain-soaked grass, with storm clouds overhead to obscure any moon that would be out. Extremely low visibility from porchlights in the back area of the townhomes, and the few lights on illuminated downward.

            Zimmerman would know that was dangerous terrain and he would be at a disadvantage to be one-handed (unless it was his intent to shoot a fleeing victim in the back, which was not shown.)

            GZ and TM were both on the grass, “grappling” with each other – only one witness (John #6) stated any hitting, then recanted in a longer, more formal interview by FLDE (i.e., not influenced by SPD). He saw no gun-in-hand.

            John W#6 also described what would be called “the attempt to restrain” and “the attempt to attain ascendency.” So not wrestling – but struggling. Can’t do that one-handed. One couldn’t do that for long if you had a gun in your hand.

            Because DeeDee reports “get off, get off” spoken by Trayvon before the connection was lost, I believe that’s where they went to ground.

            One witness reported running or seeing one person running, but that is indistinct at this time – it was reported as a fleeting glance

            I believe Zimmerman finally gained the ascendancy over Trayvon, sitting or likely kneeling astride him (one student suggested kneeling on Trayvon’s arms, which would cause great pain). I believe Zimmerman had a grasp of Trayvon’s shirts, as a way to control Trayvon, if he made any attempt to wriggle away or get up, which, imprisoned as he was by Zimmerman’s body, was nigh on impossible.

            AT THAT FINAL POINT I believe Zimmerman reached round to his “right back hip” (his words) and drew the Kel-Tek from his holster – totally unimpeded. He leaned over Trayvon for a better position, moved his left (fabric-grasping) hand slightly to the side (so not to shoot his own left hand), “took aim” by steadying the muzzle of the Kel-Tek on the taut fabric that was held away from Trayvon’s torso, and fired the Kel-Tek with his right hand into Trayvon Martin’s heart.

            Trajectory, per the Medical Examiner, was straight in.

            The “teacher” upstairs in her condo observed “the larger man” to be “on top” at the time of the shot, and saw him rise. First a neighbor with a flashlight, and then Officer Smith, arrived. From that point there is the police narrative.

            I cannot see Zimmerman unholstering his weapon UNTIL NEEDED, because under those circumstances that would have been dangerous (to himself) and unwieldy, in pursuit, to do so.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I can adopt this scenario. Thanks

        • William Walton says:

          Lonnie Starr, This will probably be my last input. It would appear that most people who input into this blog have the attitude that my mind is made up so DO NOT confuse me with scientific theory. One individual stated “quote the blog which stated that they were on the ground”. Yet she continues to quote “they were struggling or rocketing on the ground. How could they get up and move without anyone seeing them”. It would appear that this individual is lacking in critical thinking. One last input I would like to add:
          1. TM and GZ are standing. This would substantiate GZ’s comment that he had to aim to keep from shooting his left hand. If TM was moving away from GZ and GZ grabbed him he would do it with his left hand. Turning him around to face him, GZ would also be gripping TM by his left hand attached to left side of TM’s sweatshirt. Or if TM turned and faced him asking “why are you following me?” Thus, to shoot TM, he would have to aim over this left arm to keep from shooting his left hand. If TM was pinned to the ground by GZ, GZ would have at least one hand free gripping TM to the right side of his hoodie with GZ’s left hand or he would have had both hands free. Thus, no reason to worry about shooting his left hand.
          2. Shooting TM while standing, TM would crumple and begin to fall back. I do not know having never shot a 9mm pistol whether the recoil would be enough to destabize GZ causing him to fall forward toward the crumpling TM. I have a .22 pistol which I shoot and it does have a recoil. This will be left up to weapon experts.
          3. Shooting TM while standing. TM would crumple and begin to fall back pulling a destabilized GZ with him. While falling, the Physics force of Momentum sets in pulling them both downward and forward. Thus, being dragged downward by gravity they would be also dragged in a horizontal direction. Thus, with TM being on the bottom, his shoes, socks, and what ever else impacting the ground would pick up grass stains and debris from the ground. By the same token, with GZ being alive and on top of the falling TM as well as being dragged forward by momentum, his boot tips would be dragged over the ground picking up debris.
          4. The piercing screams It would be impossible for TM to give out a piercing scream being pinned to the ground. At this point, TM’s diaphram would have been distended such that it would be difficult to breath let alone let out a moan let alone a piercing scream. A piercing scream is viable provided that TM and GZ were standing and TM had his lungs full of air in order to utter that piercing scream.
          5. Lonnie Starr’s comment that the abrasions were in place before this incident. This is very possible. This could be why GZ began to rub his head after the shooting. However, the dried blood and scab looking head appearance after the shooting could be due to CZ actualy hitting his head and the EMT cauterizing it with silver nitrate. It should be noted that silver nitrate turns black when exposed to light which is why it is stored in dark amber bottles. Lonnie, you might want to look at the photos of GZ’s head as it appears to have a black tinge to it. This could be due to my imagiantion, the quality of the photo, or real. I would like a second opinion.
          6. Wrist Hold. If CZ had a wrist hold on TM, he would be using his left hand. As strong as CZ is, it would be most impossible for TM to pull his wrist up to block CZ’s view of a clear shot. So, does this scenario really exist. Why would CZ have to protect his left hand when it was not in the line of fire?

          Well Lonnie, I am gone. I am sure there will be responses from some of the participants in this blog. I hope my inputs have been helpful. I retain the right to respond to inputs which I find interesting.

          • Patricia says:

            @ William Walton:

            Why so coy?

            Patricia is the individual you quoted in:

            “One individual stated “quote the blog which stated that they were on the ground”. Yet she continues to quote “they were struggling or rocketing on the ground. How could they get up and move without anyone seeing them”. It would appear that this individual is lacking in critical thinking.”

            “It would appear that this individual is lacking in critical thinking” is YOUR statement.

            Mr. Science Man, who are YOU to posit that ANY student here is “lacking in critical thinking” because they do not embrace your theory?

            Two degrees and a father who is a doctor does not entitle you to ignore salient facts – including the wonderful catsup demo a few days back and today’s MMA video.

            You are a unique braggart – the only one who’s shown up on this site, among all the students.

            Now you’re sulking off, just because we didn’t kiss your assertions.



          • cielo62 says:

            Thank you, Patricia. From what I’ve read (and I’ve read each thread) there are several possible scenarios. I’m partial to the “kneeling/about to get up” theory where Martin is trying to escape from a prone position (not sure how he got there, though) and GZ has him tight by the shirts to prevent escape. This allows for the extended arm, the taut shirts skewed to the left and down, and the straight shot but WITHOUT having anyone see two standing bodies. Martin can scream unimpeded from this position, GZ can get “up” from this position and straddle the body. The gun can be close enough to ding GZs nose. Truthfully, I am the ONLY person to posit this theory so far, but it’s what best suits my thinking of the salient facts. Anyone with any reason to dispute it, please help me see any errors.   PS Na’mer sends his thanks for your recognition of his catitude. He’s willing to share that catitude with deserving humans.  🙂

          • Patricia says:


            Cielo, I originally thought, from the relative heights of the protagonists, that both were standing when Zimmrman shot Trayvon, after running apace. Perfectly logical (my unwavering reference is the trajectory of the bullet).

            Then I thought there could have been a slip, and I favored the “kneeling on the ground, about to get up” theory.

            But both of those concepts leave Trayvon’s arms available for defense. Now, I can see that he was a pacific person, and was probably literally scared stiff. But a gunman never knows. There could at least be a little bobbing, weaving. Some defensive move; if BOTH George’s hand are occupied, Trayvon could lash out.

            What led me to embrace the “Zimmerman on top” theory were these:

            1) Zimmerman’s lies are so often related to something HE did, but ascribes to Trayvon, or vice-versa. My epiphany on this was reading the FDLE interview with the former fiance who had to file a restraining order against Zimmerman. She was stunned not by the fact that HE filed one the next day in response – but he claimed SHE did what she had written in her restraining affidavit that HE did. He’s a reverse copycat! (He’s a “mirror-mage liar.”)

            2) We know it’s physically impossible for Zimmerman to fire up at Trayvon’s heart from underneath.

            3) John W#6’s testimony has them struggling together on the ground, but moving toward the concrete, with Trayvon on top (at which point John runs upstairs to call 911) and we know the final death scene was fully on the grass. Zimmerman could easily have scraped his head on the concrete edge, vault cover or sprinkler head, “grappling” in transit few feet to the death scene.

            4) John W#6 earlier reported GZ’s efforts to get up, gain the ascendancy. We know he had the physical power to do this and I believe he was able to overcome a very exhausted Trayvon in that final location.

            5) I do not see GZ letting Trayvon get up – he might escape.

            6) A simple roll maneuver would put GZ on top. We have seen ample evidence that ZIMMERMAN IS A CONTROL FREAK. No better control than to be OVER Trayvon – especially kneeling on his arms. (Owwww. Horrible.) This position pins Travon’s arms – he is completely immobilized, as contrasted to kneeling or standing.

            7) This position is PERFECT target control for Zimmerman. Draw, aim, snarl “Tonight you die, mother-fucker,” position the muzzle, shoot. The “perfect shot” makes me believe that GZ, almost at leisure could position the gun perfectly. But we know he was aware the police were en route. So he did it carefully, then BAM!

            8) To make that “perfect shot” GZ would have to hunch over Trayvon during the draw, the pulling aside of GZ’s left hand to avoid shooting himself, the positioning of the muzzle at a 90-degree angle to Trayvon’s torso. During that hunched-over position the blood from the head scrapes rolled diagonally past GZ’s ears, across his cheeks, to his FuManchu beard. That bloody photo is impressive.

            9) Being already on the ground made it easy for Zimmerman to frisk Trayvon for weapons, then flip his body over, check for an exit wound and for a holster in the same location that Zimmerman wore his – right back rear. Two residents saw him “going over the body” (I think their word was “patting it.”) He had very little time, but he got that done.

            10) The schoolteacher from her upper room was looking down, saw two men ON THE GROUND TOGETHER at the time of the shot, then saw “the larger man” rise and the “young boy” prone.

            So, Cielo, those 10 factors are what led my mind from standing, to kneeling (or GZ standing and pulling TM to his knees), to Zimmerman straddling Trayvon on the ground, unholstering his gun in perfect safety to himself, GZ pulling his left hand a bit more to the left to avoid shooting it, placing the muzzle on the taut shirt, and firing – at the same time the fresh capilary wounds flowed forward because Zimmerman was leaning forward, over Trayvon during this final execution.

            So that’s my theory – and that and a Brisling sardine will get a “meow” from Na’mur.

            BUT – I keep my mind open for reconsideration if the prosecution releases evidence that disputes this theory.

            My bet is that the prosecution will not say “how” George shot Trayvon – they will just point out clearly that the way Zimmerman claims he did it is IMPOSSIBLE.

          • cielo62 says:

            I had totally forgotten about the blood flow! I can see how your current theory makes alot of sense. But I CAN say that, no matter what permutation of standing/kneeling the prosecution uses, I KNOW it can’t have been with GZ underneath.   Thanks for walking me through that. 🙂

          • Patricia says:

            @Cielo –

            Should have added that with GZ kneeling on Trayvon’s arms, he would have full diaphram and lung power to scream, in fact, could not have avoided screaming, the pain would be so great.

            With Trayvon’s shirts in one hand and a gun in the other, Zimmerman at that point has no hands left to inflict pain.

            But 207 lbs divided by two pressure points on any location of your arms would be excruciating.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Even if all of what you said was true, the law requires that a shot, fired in self defense, be caused by a reasonable and proximal danger that to do otherwise might cost the shooter his life.

            We know that TM was unarmed. We know that at the time when the shot was taken. GZ has no reason to fear that TM can easily kill him, because GZ has now gained total control of his weapon.

            Thus, it follows, GZ fired his weapon, at a point in time when TM had absolutely no way to threaten GZ with the imminent loss of his life. The fatal shot, in the eyes of the law, need not have been taken at that point, because GZ controlled the only deadly threat available.

            Do you really want to know what’s worse? As the Professor of Law here has instructed us: You cannot claim self defense, against a gun or weapon, that you brought to the fight!

            Now we know that GZ doesn’t want to admit that he caused TM to fear him. Which is why he tries to say that TM went “skipping” away from him, as opposed to running. Well, TM may not be around to refute that, but we have legally acceptable evidence that shows that TM was afraid and that he was trying to get away from GZ. We have absolutely no evidence at all, that GZ was trying to avoid TM.

            Yes, we do have GZ telling us that he was headed back to his truck, but we only get to hear that statement AFTER he has shot and killed TM. A time when anyone charged with murder would say something like that. Before, he shot and killed TM, he said that he would not tell the officer where to meet him, he wanted the officer to call him, and he would then tell the officer where he was.

            Now does that sound like he’s headed back to his truck? Or does it make you suspect that he is headed somewhere else? In fact he said that he went over to RVC to get an address where the officer could meet him. So why didn’t he stay there and give them an address he saw there? The obvious answer is, he didn’t go there to get an address to give the officer a place to meet him. In fact, we do not know what he was doing, we don’t even know, for example, whether he actually went over to RVC. He could have actually gone anywhere, we have no way to tell.

            But, like I said, none of that matters because when he fired the fatal shot, he was the only one in control of the only deadly weapon around. When he drew the weapon he had secured it. Meaning that it was not available to TM. Yet, he still shot an unarmed person who was helpless, and he did so when there was no threat of imminent death to himself.

            Now, show us what evidence you have to refute any of that above and we’ll all go home. Okay?

          • William Walton says:

            The comments which I put forth were done so to refute GZ’s statements that TM attacked him. They show that it was the other way around GZ stalked, attacked, and killed TM,

  3. William Walton says:

    Xena, that would be expected. It is human nature that when one experiences a nose bleed they throw the head back thinking it will stop the bleeding, Thus, the blood trail going back to GZ’s ear. The force of gravity would also pull the blood trail down toward the chin. Dad would comment about people coming into the ER with a nose bleed and have blood spattered everywhere. One patient asked him “well what should I have done Doc?” Dads’s reply was pinch the nostrils together applying pressure and breathe through your mouth. Once you get here, we can clean you up and cauterize the nose bleeding with AgNO3(subscript). Hope this adds some insight.

    • Xena says:

      @William Walton. Maybe we have different starting points. The pics of GZ’s head injuries taken at the police station show a trail of blood STARTING on his head, and running down below his ear. Thus, I am not speaking about a nose bleed running.

  4. William Walton says:

    Xena, finding debris on TM’s hoodie, sweatshirt, both shoes, and both socks would fit into the theory that both were standing when TM was shot. As TM crumpled and began to fall, the weight of GZ would have drug him backwards as they both fell to the ground. Thus, TM’s feet would have been dragged across the grass picking up debris as they went along. Just another thought.

    • Patricia says:

      @ William Walton

      So — how far “dragged” ???

      And they never picked up debris from any earlier part of the encounter?

      Two pristine dudes right out of Genelemen’s Quarterly until GZ shot, TM fell, GZ fell & bounced off TM …..

      Not a blade of grass on either one until Mother Nature’s Gravity Force hurled them to the grass?

      So — how far dragged?

    • Xena says:

      As TM crumpled and began to fall, the weight of GZ would have drug him backwards as they both fell to the ground. Thus, TM’s feet would have been dragged across the grass picking up debris as they went along. Just another thought.

      Where are you envisioning that GZ had hold of Trayvon in order for his weight to drag him backwards?

      Sorry William, but we have discussed evidence on this blog regarding the gunshot hole in Trayvon’s clothes in comparison to the entry wound in his chest. Based on those discussions and the evidence, I cannot envision your suggestion.

  5. William Walton says:

    Sorry for the CV Patricia. Trying to do two things at the same time. The point I was making is that no one has posted a thought that TM was struggling with GZ on top of him. It appeared that they all assumed that GZ was on top and TM was flat on his back. True GZ outweighed TM by 50 # but TM was taller and leaner. One cannot imagine TM just laying their saying ok GZ you have me pinned. No, human instinct would dictate that TM would make some kind of movement in an attmept to extricate himself. Thus, with their combined weight and even a small amount of movement some residue of the grass would be on the back of TM’s hoodie.

    • Patricia says:

      @ William Walton

      You haven’t read how GZ would immobilize TM?

      You haven’t heard the long piercing scream – without any fluctuation in volume that would be caused by the struggle – that piercing scream that lingers in everybody’s memory?

      That the State has not released ANY grass stain evidence from either GZ or TM’s clothing — that’s your basis for “the stand-up murder” with Zimmerman supposedly bouncing off Trayvon’s body and onto a sprinkler head or some other unspecified sharp object?

      (Despite the fact that the two small cuts/abrasions photographed on the back of GZ’s head were linear, indicating the head was dragged briefly over a sharp object, and did not bounce off it).

      Do you prepared to state that NEITHER GZ NOR TRAYVON were EVER down on the grass?

      • William Walton says:

        Patricia, both were on the grass. TM was dead on his back and GZ had bounced off. Told your senario about the cops and bouncers throwing suspects to the ground to a Texas DPS officer. His comment was wrong in both cases. Throwing a suspect down leaves the officer or bouncer open to a lawsuit for an injured this or that. Both are instructed not to do this. This is not to say GZ knew this or practiced this. Your statement as well as others regarding the piercing scream. According to your senario, GZ had TM flat on his back on the ground with his arms outstretched. GZ was most likely either sitting or restraining TM’s belly to keep him down. In this situation, the diaphram would be distended rendering it hard for TM to breath or moan, let alone give out a piercing scream. However, the piercing scream senario fits right in with both of them standing. Even though GZ was grasping TM’s hoodie, TM could still breath, fill his lungs, and give out the piercing scream. Just another thought.

        • Patricia says:

          @Mr. Walton, for a scientist you have a lousy memory for what you read.

          The only “advocate” for Trayvon’s arms outstretched is ZIMMERMAN who said he streched out Trayvon’s arms AFTER DEATH..

          Everybody else who envisioned TM restrained on the ground see GZ’s legs holding Trayvon’s next to Trayvon’s body – easy to do with such a lean kid. In fact, one student here has postulated that GZ was kneeling on TM’s arms. That’s certainly going to make you scream.

          Don’t ask your Texas friends about something none of us said. None of us has said GZ threw TM to the ground. They were roiling around on the grass already.

          Whether George sat or knelt on TM, he would raise his ass and kneel forward, drawing his gun and executing his shot – that is the the period of time when Trayvon’s scream rang loud and clear.

          GZ could not stop that scream – left hand grasping TM’s shirts, right hand grasping the Kel-Tek.

          • BTW, I think the reason why GZ pulled the sweatshirts to his left was to get his left hand out of the way to fire the fatal shot. That accounts for the diagonal displacement between the two holes in the sweatshirts and the entry wound.

            I’ve been intending to say that for awhile but keep forgetting it.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Let’s see, GZ is saying he had both his hands free and TM held at gunpoint, when he pulled his left hand out of the way and took careful aim and fired. That doesn’t sound like self defense to me.

            Holding onto a person you’ve got at gun point, while you aim your weapon, says you did not need to fire, but chose to do so.

            So, then, with both hands freely engaged in threatening the life of the kid, GZ want’s us to believe that he continued to scream for help, then stopped after he fired??? ??? ??? ???
            Hey Zimmerman! Good luck with that!!!

    • Xena says:

      There are lab reports for the finding of debris. Debris was found on Trayvon’s hoodie, sweatshirt, and both shoes. IIRC, it was also found on both socks. Debris was only found on GZ’s left boot.

      In the John Orr SYG immunity hearing, he testified that the men he killed had him pinned on his back. The State argued that there was no debris found on Orr’s clothes to support his claim. Orr’s immunity was denied.

  6. William Walton says:

    TM was on the ground after CZ hit him and bounced off. What I am saying, is that TM was not struggling on the ground with CZ on top of him moving around frantically trying to escape. The St. Augustine grass being wet and green would still have left evidence on TM’s hoodie if the above scenio had taken place.

    • Patricia says:

      @William Walton

      Nobody has said TM was “struggling on the ground with CZ on top of him moving around frantically trying to escape.” NOBODY has said that. What a number of us have stated is that Trayvon was immobilized by Zimmerman who had experience as a bouncer, knew how to do this, outweighed Trayvon by more than 50 lbs and had superior upper body strength. Once Trayvon was immobilized, it permitted Zimmerman to draw his weapon, lean over and place the perfect shot to the heart.

      Please cite the post where anyone has stated there was the struggle you describe. You have informed us many times that you are a man of scence, so we look to you for accuracy in your claims.

      And George may be somebody’s “jewel” (or cubic zirconium), but please quit referring to him a CZ. This is not QVC.

    • Xena says:

      The St. Augustine grass being wet and green would still have left evidence on TM’s hoodie if the above scenio had taken place.

      It did. See my comment below about the lab reports.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      I’d like to know where the idea that one struggles at gun point comes from? In my estimation, at gun point one tries to remain as still as possible.

      I know, I know, in the movies and on tv they give the impression that one can move quickly enough to defeat a trigger pull. I sincerely doubt that anyone facing gunpoint for the very first time in their lives, would feel like putting the theory to a test.

  7. William Walton says:

    I shall take a few moments from playing Geo-Chemist & Geo-Engineer and respond. I have no doubts that CZ got up from the ground even being stunned and began to frisk TM’s body for the imaginary weapon as this would be his first response. The dried blood observed on the back of CZ’s head is just that, Too Dried. Head wounds tend to bleed for some time as observed with my Dad during treatment of accident victims. The pooling of blood going down to CZ’s funcky beard most likely came from his nose injury as it is quite fresh. Observe the difference of the color of the blood in both instances.

    • Xena says:

      The pooling of blood going down to CZ’s funcky beard most likely came from his nose injury as it is quite fresh. Observe the difference of the color of the blood in both instances.

      The blood ran from GZ’s head at an angle toward his ears.

  8. logi says:

    I would also like to mention that if Trayvon were to have fallen from standing, He would have fallen flat on his face and caused some kind of facial trauma I would think. Even if we go by GZ’s story of Trayvon being on top and falling over. I believe he still turned him over in hope of finding a gun in his waistband.

  9. Brown says:


    Here is Tchopi site he has the hoodie and sweatshirt with markers of where dna was found.

  10. Patricia says:

    @Professor –

    “I don’t know how or when that fragment of lead got on the back of the upper right sleeve of his jacket, but I doubt it has anything to do with this case.”

    Either Ayala or Smitch collected the Kel-tek. Then when Zimm was cuffed and led to the car, the same guy put an arm on GZ to lead him to the squad car.

    Not relevant to the case, but reasonable.

    Wish everything was this simple.

    • logi says:

      I think it was mentioned that perhaps when the cop handled GZ’s gun and then handcuffed him he transferred residue from the gun.

      • logi says:

        oops! never mind!

      • Patricia says:

        Logi., Professor – I think we are all on the same page re the speck of GSR on Zimmerman’s back upper sleeve, and that there’s no consequence to it. Thanks to everybody for the follow-through. Everything should be this easy!!!

  11. Patricia says:

    Professor Leatherman and Class –

    Because four nearby resident witnesses saw Zimmerman rising from Trayvon’s body, with one (the school teacher upstairs) watched the shooting happening, I would respectfully decline the theory that both GZ and TM were standing at the moment of the final shot, and the force of falling bodies caused the head bleeding/semi-trauma to Zimmerman.

    When was there enough time for GZ/TM, intertwined on the ground, to work their way from outside John W#6’s patio to death scene, then both get up into a vertical struggle – which no witness saw?

    However, if, in fact it happened that way, (1) Zimmerman would be in NO fear for his life; (2) Zimmerman would be in full control of Trayvon, grasping his shirts in front; (3) Zimmerman knew the cops would arrive momentarily because he called 311 NEN and knew John W#6 was calling 911; (4) if somehow Trayvon “needed to be restrained” but could escape (“the vigilante GZ” theory), (5) Zimmerman COULD have shot Trayvon in the shoulder. A 9mm slug would stop anyone for at least a few minutes; Trayvon would be writhing on the grass – THEREFORE, making the decision to shoot Trayvon in the heart under such non-threatening circumstances clearly = Murder 2 (or worse).

    And, of course, shooting Trayvon dead would eliminate the one witness who could dispute every one of Zimmerman’s statements except “I shot him.”

    Again, if the falling (vertical) bodies theory explains what happened: (1) the trajectory matches; (2) Zimmerman could easily draw the Kel-Tek from his holster inside his waistband “on his right rear hip” (as he described it).

    But itt appears that the “vertical falling bodies” theory is presented to answer to the question, “How did Zimmerman’s head get banged up?” I appreciate the science embodied in this theory.

    But the reason I cannot concur is that if GZ got banged up in the “falling bodies event,” there is no explanation for the pattern of blood rivulets formed from the slight cuts on the back of GZ’s head, forward across his cheeks, pooling in his beard – and that is the very dramatic photograph likely to be displayed at the trial.

    As to the touches of GZ blood on Trayvon’s clothing – GZ frisked him, and said so. Also handled the Kel-Tek grip.

    Once Trayvon was dead (or near death) Zimmerman had no need to restrain him, so the first instinct he would have, without realizing it, would be to use his hand(s), now free, to brush blood away from his nose, which is a gunky, uncomfortable feeling like your nose is running and you can’t grab a tissue. Having done that, he’d have blood on whatever he touched.

    I do not believe Zimmerman had his gun out until the very last moment. Zimmerman had only two hands – grabbing sweatshirts, twisting Trayvon’s arm in a painful lock, trying to right himself from the ground with Trayvon over him, or the likely combination of any of those would require two hands.

    He did not have four hands to do all of this plus brandish his weapon. Also, I cannot believe Zimmerman would be rolling around in wet grass with Trayvon with one hand holding out the Kel-Tek, which had no safety.

    Moments before the shot, John W#6 did not see a gun, nor did Zimmerman yell, “I’ve got a gun. I’ll shoot.”

    So, if they got vertical at the end, I believe Trayvon would still have tried to escape, or bobbed and weaved (keep in mind GZ could not be both holding the shirts AND twisting Trayvon’s arm – because Zimmerman needed a free arm to go for his gun.

    The gun was GZ’s “ultimate solution.”

    But what guarantee did Zimmerman have that Trayvon would not try to knock it out of his hand, grab it, duck out of the way? None.

    I believe the carefully-placed shot could only have happened when both were on the ground, Trayvon IMMOBILIZED and helpless, and when Zimmerman could safely and precisely take aim and fire.

    Medicine Bear’s report on the Kel-Tek recoil convinces me that the recoil could have smacked Zimmerman in the nose, causing the nosebleed. Or the spent cartridge.

    As to the back-of-the-head scratches, I have submitted the list of photos (source: Axiom Amnesia) of the RATL sprinkler heads. We know that FDLE highlighted two locations in the grass near the death scene – one ideal for a sprinkler head; plus the valve cover was nearby – both the valve covers and sprinkler heads could inflict circular wounds.

    As everybody knows, it doesn’t take much for scalp wounds to bleed copiously.

    Therefore, because the photo evidence of Zimmerman’s bloody but minor scalp wounds MUST be accounted for within the final death struggle, I continue to believe that the head injuries were incurred by a ground-level physical hazard (sidewalk edge, vault cover or sprinkler head) just prior to Zimmerman gaining control of Trayvon ON THE GROUND.

    The flow of blood displayed in the photo shows Zimmerman was leaning forward over Trayvon – the position which Zimmerman would find ideal for drawing his gun, aiming precisely by placing it on the taut shirt, and firing.

    Zimmerman was a coward. I do not think he would take the risk of trying to control Trayvon upright, when he could do it safer and more expeditiously by straddling Trayvon on the ground – in his old bouncer’s mode

    Nor do I think Zimmerman self-injured himself with his tactical flashlight or other object, when neighbors were popping out of their condos to see what was happening. He didn’t have the time, and he didn’t have the courage.

    He was busy frisking Trayvon, rearranging the body and thinking up alibis. Like some crazed exterior decorator.

    If he had been attacked by a dead Trayvon falling on him, or had fallen on a dead Trayvon and bounced off him under the attack by gravity, I think you would find a woozy, dazed and disoriented Zimmerman with a fresh head injury and no dried blood trails – unable to frisk Trayvon or rearrange Trayvon’s body to suit his story.

    Instead, his vital signs were normal, he was discussing ammo with Jon and getting his head photographed to bolster the story he would tell.

    Witnesses saw Zimmerman seated on Trayvon and rise from his body.

    Nobody saw Trayvon vertical, ever.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Hallow Patricia, pls. tell the professor that the questions he posed are compound and too complicated to all be answered in on blog (just kidding).

      The “vertical-struggle-scenario” is also IMO not viable on the following grounds:

      Trayvon would in a “vertical-struggle-scenario” have had the opportunity to fight back, (try to) push the gun away from himself or (try to) take it away from Zimmerman. But he did not (even try). So, either Trayvon just let Zimmerman shoot him at point blank range without fighting back even though he could have fought back, or he (Trayvon) (in his juvenile thinking) threw up his hands in surrender believing that Zimmerman would not shoot a person who has surrendered. The latter seems plausible, but is negated by the fact that Trayvon was screaming in pain. Trayvon could not have surrendered and at the same time be screaming in pain for help (the one would IMO exclude the other and vice versa).

      The trajectory/angle of the bullet IS ENOUGH in deducing who was on top of whom. Given that evidence, it really does NOT matter what the witnesses think they saw. Science/objective evidence is superior to witness testimony. Witness testimony that contradicts science/objective evidence is non-evidence. That is the (unwritten) law. And if I am wrong, I hope the Prof. would promptly correct me.

      • Patricia says:

        If GZ had the upper hand, why ever would he let Trayvon get up? Trayvon’s scared, in excruciating pain – could anybody imagine he’s struggling to get up through those screams?

        Zimmerman would let him? Nein! Zimmerman’s a bouncer. And ask any cop – safest place to keep a suspect is on the ground.

        That’s where Trayvon was.

        And that’s where Zimmerman shot him.

        • Have you considered the possibility that Zimmerman might have told TM that he was a cop?

          Perhaps his reason for killing Martin was he feared arrest and prosecution for impersonating a police officer.

          Proving that would be impossible, but it seems rather likely to me that Zimmerman would have done that, given his obsession with being the only “sheriff” at the RATL.

          • Patricia says:

            Only you, Professor, could make me consider that Zimmerman told Trayvon he’s a cop. For about 18 seconds …

            Well, maybe a narc.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Genau, Patricia. We are essentially saying the same thing. Trayvon and Zimmerman could not have been standing vertically facing each other (i.e. “the vertical-struggle-scenario”) when the shot was fired. That leaves just one option remaining: both were on the ground. The trajectory of the bullet establishes indisputably that Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon when the shot was fired. The reverse, from the point of view of physics, is just NOT possible (regardless of what any contrarian human witness, e.g. W#6, may say).

        The absence of Trayvon’s DNA can only mean that he was immobilized in such a way on the ground that he could not touch the gun, let alone push the gun away from his heart. One can only speculate as to how Trayvon was actually immobilized. I have posted my theory above. But what really matters is not how Trayvon was immobilized but that he was immobilized – as cries in pain attest to.

        • Patricia says:

          Searcher, absolutely nobody’s buying Zimmerman’s “I shot him when he was on top of me” fable. When John W#6 ducked back into the house to run upstairs to his phone, TM and GZ still had two legs of their itinerary left – and W#6 has never said the shooting took place the way GZ spun it..

          As to the “vertical shooting” sceanario, William is a brilliant scientist but I would never hire him as a hit man. Humans are tough organisms and death is a messy, often complex struggle. Trayvon would NOT have dropped like a rock – remember the recent discussion re the two ME’s back east who described the several minutes it took Trayvon to die? Likely he would stagger, reel, buckle – throw all kinds of sabots into the works of a “neat killing.”

          One thing I’m waiting to see if there’s going to be any further refinement or re-computation of the shooting distance muzzle-to-torso in this murder. I am always open to new information, but everything has to link.

          FYI Searcher, and to the Professor, I sent my e-mail to Anthony Gorgone (Fred, note spelling) this morning. I thought sending it over the weekend would look a little hyper. Let’s see if he replies. It is, after all, “The Sunshine State.”

      • Two sides to a story says:

        This fits the eyewitness testimony and makes more sense than the vertical argument.

      • SearchingMind says:

        I am, Patricia, excited about the e-mail you refer to and the possible reply you might get. I can only hope that the guys on the prosecution team are as dedicated and diligent as you, professor and ALL other participants here. Kol ha kavod!

        • Patricia says:

          @ Searcher – and favored Mensch – thanks to you for the kind kudos and kol ha kavod – this may be the first Greco-Hebrew communication in The Professor’s curriculum – but much appreciated.

          Just a quick update re the request to FDLE – sent this a.m. – Susie Murphy of FDLE, Orlando called back @ noon, left coast time. Understood the request but wanted it routed trough Angela Corey as it is a current investigation. Format I sent is just fine and they understand the info I need. (Also asking the location of the two marks The Professor needs – stains A&D on Trayvon. [under] sweatshirt; drip or transfer?) These are public documents so should be no problems. Will talk with Jackelyn Barnard, Ms. Corey’s Director of Communications in the a.m. – was swamped by calls all this afternoon so could not close the loop today. My apologies for that. Kol ha kavod right back atcha!!

      • dremn2004 says:

        I believe he may have had TM on bottom most, if not all of the struggle. Everyone states that they saw red on the bottom. If you read the statement for witness 1 she states that the ‘body’ was in red lying facedown after the shot was fired.

      • jun says:

        I feel they were standin or kneeling. Zimmerman on top or bottom, considering the trajectory, entry wound location, different range readings for the hoodie and undershirt of TM, would be holding the gun in an irregular manner. The only way it wouls work is if Zimmerman was standing over Trayvon, gripped him and shot, & that is still an irregular shooting position of the hand. Its fairly easy to immobilize someone at gun point. Trayvon was not a fighter and was obviously terrified. So I go with standing kneeling face to face, due to the forensics & ballistics

    • You make a very convincing argument, Patricia.

      Well said.

      One of the most disturbing things to me about this execution is Zimmerman’s absence of emotional distress. His vitals, as you point out, are normal. That just blows me away. He does not even appear to have been angry.

      Although we are not aware of any evidence that Zimmerman has killed before this incident, with the possible exception of Shellie’s ambiguous statement that he “shot someone else,” I cannot shake the suspicion that he has done this before, probably more than once.

      If I were on the prosecution team, I would be looking for connections searching the unsolved homicides and missing person reports for the past 10 years within a 100 mile radius of where he lived, including where he lived in Virginia.

      Might not turn up anything but there is no good reason not to check.

      • William Walton says:

        Prof; Patricia overlooked one aspect of humans being tough organisms. Once shot or suffering trauma, Shock sets in. Saw my Dad battle this numerous times at the scenes of auto accidents.

        • Patricia says:

          @William –

          “Prof; Patricia overlooked one aspect of humans being tough organisms. Once shot or suffering trauma, Shock sets in.”

          But William, there are all kind of reactions by all kind of individuals, and also GZ had no guarantee of control over his shot, so he couldn’t be certain of what would happen. Dropping from shock was not guarateed,

          I will tell you of a gruesome sport the Uzbeks tribesmen used to enjoy in the 19th century. They’d get in a scrap with some neighboring tribe and capture a few. The standard dispatch was beheading. But they’d make a sport of it. They heated a big heavy steel plate, red hot, with a wood handle on the other side. Then they’d lop off a captive’s head, swiftly clap the red hot plate on the neck (to seal the blood vessels) then see how far he’d run.

          Some got close to 20 meters. Some just dropped on the spot. The Uzbeks wagered among themselves, of course, and it was not just the youngest, strongest enemy that ran the fastest after death. So you stood to lose your bet if your guy was a laggard after dying.

          But, the Uzbeks were always good sports about that. After the beheadings, they’d play a few chukkers of polo. With the heads.

          But, they were really, really good to their horses.
          Gotta admire them for that.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          From what I’ve read over time, the mind and/or nature is not sadistic. The mind will immediately try to assess the damage via the nerve endings. If it assesses that the wound is fatal it will immediately shut down. The process is little understood, but the mind will not leave you suffering with the certain knowledge you’re dying from massive wounds, if it can be helped. I don’t remember the details of how this system is supposed to work, I read it too long ago and probably paid little attention.

          • William Walton says:

            Lonnie Starr; that is why my Dad had the funeral home which also ran the ambulance service keep a medical bag containing IV’s on hand. Tje funeral director who would have Dad go along to the site of an accident come with him. My Dad’s final statement to this individual was bring the bag. If there was trauma and bleeting, an IV was immediately administered. In reviewing the various blogs, it would appear that people feel that there is a good amount of time. However, the time is only minutes and in some cases seconds. This comes from the fact that the more we review the longer the time becomes.

      • jm says:

        “One of the most disturbing things to me about this execution is Zimmerman’s absence of emotional distress.”

        I have never seen Zimmerman with any emotional distress, immediately after the killing, during police interviews, the reenactment the next day, in court appearances, during the Hannity interview, etc.

        I believe there is a mental disorder beyond ADHD and “poor memory.” I wonder if there is anything in Zimmerman’s medical records related to psychiatric issues.

      • Two sides to a story says:

        GZ clearly reveals some sociopathic tendencies in the Hannity interview.

      • ziibiqwa says:

        “Although we are not aware of any evidence that Zimmerman has killed before this incident, with the possible exception of Shellie’s ambiguous statement that he “shot someone else,” I cannot shake the suspicion that he has done this before, probably more than once.”

        I intuit the same….a feeling that was re-enforced by Zimmerman’s physical twitches, inappropriate responses, and lack of affect during the Hannity interview. I believe that he doesn’t simply suffer from a mental illness…..I believe the man is deranged.

        • jm says:

          “I intuit the same….a feeling that was re-enforced by Zimmerman’s physical twitches, inappropriate responses, and lack of affect during the Hannity interview. I believe that he doesn’t simply suffer from a mental illness…..I believe the man is deranged.”

          The Hannity interview did Zimmerman in for me also. Zimmerman is absolutely nuts and I can’t see how anyone, including O’Mara and Hannity did not see that. I also saw craziness in his first bond hearing where he brazenly “apologized” to Trayvon’s parents, lying and saying he thought Trayvon was older after clearly giving Trayvon’s age to the dispatcher as late teens.

          I do wonder what is in Zimmerman’s medical records as far as a formal psych diagnosis.

    • Mirre says:

      Yes Patricia,
      That is the same problem I have, with the shooting happening in a standing position. To be fair, I don’t think any of the witnesses, who saw part of the struggle, were looking at the moment the shot was fired. W3 probably was one of the first eyewitnesses, but she left the room, to call 911 in the other room. W1, W6 and W19 all looked at the same time. W1 and 19 both said they went back inside when John went back inside, and I think the teacher was just reaching for her telephone when she heard the shot.
      So it is not impossible. If it happened in an upright position, I think they were on their knees, maybe Trayvon was trying to get up.

      Zimmerman has a tendency to mix up fact with fiction, I think the sprinkler or the cover are the likely culprits.The left side of his head had some scratchy looking red spots, which could point to the cover.

      I am still not satisfied about how the soda can ended up in Trayvon’s pocket but the plastic bag ended up on the sidewalk.

      I’ve noticed that the FDLE seemed to have some concern about the soda can too, because the subject on who saw it and when, came up multiple times in the memo’s of the second dump.
      And there are some inconsistencies. Raimondo, the first officer to begin CPR, said he could feel something cold in Trayvon’s pocket, but he didn’t remove it.
      Mccoy describes seeing the can next to the body while Raimondo was giving CPR. But emt Livingstone said she removed the can from the pocket. She was asked wether the can was in the bag when she removed it, but she said it wasn’t.

  12. Zimmerman , dog, and getting a gun….

    I doubt any animal control officer would recommend a a private citizen to get a gun and shoot someones dog.
    I know a few animal control offcers and they use laser batons if necessary.
    Either the animal control officer is dumb or Zimmerman is lying !

    • Dave says:

      I used to be a mailman. We were all issued small aerosol cans of pepper spray for defense against attacking dogs. I had to use it a couple of times and it stopped the dogs instantly–probably better than a bullet would have–without harming the dogs.

      • I carry that when I walk my Chihuahua. Most people in my area keep dogs on a leash, but every once in awhile there is a dog loose. Never had to use my pepper spray, but I would if it threatened me or my little dog.

  13. SearchingMind says:

    @ question 2 and question 1

    RE: lucky shot

    Lucky shot?! Ausgeschlossen und Unmöglich! If Zimmerman was lying on the ground while Trayvon was on top of him (Zimmerman) and straddling him, is it PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for him to get the perfect straight shot that is in evidence. Indeed, the supremacy of natural sciences, such as physics, geometry, algebra, etc., above other non-natural sciences lies not only in the exactness of the former but also in the non-existence of such concepts as “chance” and “luck” within its/their domain(s). Within the said domain(s), specific (chain of) actions lead to specific result(s). If “A + B = C”, that excludes the possibility of “A + B = C and/or if you are lucky = D”. The ‘chance’, therefore, that Zimmerman by “luck” fired a perfect straight shot into Trayvon’s heart is, given the physical positions of both Zimmerman and Trayvon, from the point of view of the laws of physics and geometry “nihil” – i.e. non-existent. And the implications of that is just overwhelmingly devastating for Zimmerman: 1. It effectively removes Trayvon from on top of Zimmerman (irrespective of what any witness thinks he may or may not have seen); 2. It solidly puts Zimmerman on top of Trayvon and/or at least out of any life threatening position; 3. It exposes Zimmerman for who he really is: a liar and (in combination with other evidence/circumstances) a depraved killer, etc.

    RE: how did Zimmerman immobilize Trayvon?

    I believe Zimmerman immobilized Trayvon in the following manner: Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon and saddled/sited on his (Trayvon) stomach/belly; Zimmerman pinned Trayvon’s right arm to the ground with his (Zimmerman) left leg; Zimmerman pinned Trayvon’s left arm to the ground with his (Zimmerman) right leg; Zimmerman proceeded to interrogate Tayvon while Trayvon was screaming for help and trying in vain to extract himself from Zimmermann; Zimmerman used his left hand to stabilize the already immobilized but still struggling Trayvon, by placing the said hand on Trayvon’s chest pushing/pinning Trayvon down and gaining effective control of Trayvon’s upper body movements. Having Trayvon thus immobilized and stabilized, Zimmerman effectively turned Trayvon into a form of practice shooting object and by so doing “prepared” Trayvon for a perfect shot straight through the heart. And shoot he (Zimmerman) did – straight into Trayvon’s heart. And the shot “was dead on”!

    I do not think Zimmerman pulled Trayvon’s shirts down with his left hand. I think that Zimmerman sitting on Travon’s stomach/belly would have done that.

  14. Xena says:

    Okay. I see the mistake I made. The button for embedding the entire channel was clicked. Sorry.

    • Rachael says:

      Unreal, isn’t it.

      • Justkiddin* says:

        WTH? I have not had time to reflect. When I was in jail in solitary confinement I had time to reflect. Okay so obviously this idiot has no control over the lies that fly out of his mouth. IMO the criminals in Florida have came up with a whole new plan to get away with their crimes. Lie so much no one knows which way is up. It is sad Lady Justice is blind, she needs to be able to see what is going on because she can’t trust her ears. One lie after another after another after another…… Parents need to start taking their children back to the wood shed for lying. Nip this in the bud, my husband would have had a field day with this liar.

  15. Xena says:

    Opps. Professor, could you remove the above vid. I intended on copying another one.

  16. logi says:

    Which is also why Trayvon was screaming in pain.

    • SearchingMind says:

      Professor, could you pls. delete the above post. I mistakenly posted it at the wrong place. The right post is below. Thanks.

  17. logi says:

    I believe if they were on the ground when Trayvon was shot, Gz straddled him pinning Trayvon’s arms down with his knees. I believe that is why in the police station pictures there is grass on the toes of his boots but no grass stains on his knees.

    That’s all I’ve got!

    • Xena says:

      GZ wouldn’t have to pin both of Trayvon’s arms. That wrist lock with the arm taken back pretty much paralyzes the entire body. IMO, GZ gave the wrist lock story when he “felt” Trayvon feeling up his chest because he was probably afraid that some bruising would show on Trayvon’s wrist.

    • Tee says:

      I agree with u I think that he straddled him I’ve been saying this since the beginning that’s why his boots are wet in the front And that’s why that boy screams are so terrifying because he couldn’t move and this man had a gun pointed at his chest.

  18. Fed-up taxpayer says:

    And the police were just going to let this one go…

  19. Vicky says:

    By looking at the blood stain on Trayvon’s gray sweatshirt he was in a vertical position when shot. So, it makes sense that they were either kneeling or standing when GZ pulled the trigger. Especially when considering the trajectory of the bullet.
    I can’t see that blood from GZ’s head or nose dripped on Trayvon’s sweatshirt. First of all, very little of the blood dripped on the back or front GZ’s clothes, and no GZ blood was found on Trayvon’s hoodie. So, the blood on the gray sweatshirt had to come from GZ’s hands. Same for blood on the gun.
    I’m beginning to think I am the only person who is of the opinion that Trayvon made an attempt to defend himself against GZ. I think after Trayvon asked GZ why he was following him and GZ responded with What are you doing here, Trayvontold GZ to f-off and turned to walk away. I think GZ went after him, yelling for him to stop and cursing at his suspect. I think Trayvon probably ignored him and kept walking. GZ then grabbed Trayvon, he struggled to free himself and in the process punched GZ square in the nose. I don’t think GZ was the only one who fell to the ground during that struggle as I believe both had ahold of each other and went down together. They might very well have been near the sidewalk at that point, Trayvon might have landed on top, and GZ hit his head on the edge of the pavement at that time. But no head banging and nose pinching. But perhaps a few punches. At that point GZ knew they had been observed and might have asked for help. I think Trayvon prepared to get up since someone said they were calling the cops, and at that point GZ regained his hold on Trayvon using some type of painful maneuver to pin him down. GZ began to interrogate and threaten Trayvon and a panicked and pain stricken Trayvon began to scream for help. GZ dragged him to his feet, holding him by the front of his hoodie, then pulled the gun from it’s holster.

    Now for my latest scenario of what might have happened next.
    The contents of Trayvon’s pockets had began to slip out of his pocket. He reached down to push them back in, GZ saw the bulge at that moment and thought Trayvon was going for a gun. He aimed at Trayvon’s chest and fired his gun. They both fell to the ground. Contents of bag have spilled out onto the ground. He knows he has screwed himself. He stuffs the can and skittles back in the pocket, using the sweatshirt to remove any prints he might have left. In the process of wiping prints off the can, GZ gets blood on the other shirt.

    • Xena says:

      The contents of Trayvon’s pockets had began to slip out of his pocket. He reached down to push them back in, GZ saw the bulge at that moment and thought Trayvon was going for a gun.

      The iced tea was in a bag. The Skittles and lighter were in Trayvon’s pocket. His headset was taken out of his pocket, but the cops or EMT’s could have put it there to get it out of the way of the mask when administering CPR. The paramedic said she removed the iced tea from his pocket. Thus, the iced tea made its way out of the bag into Trayvon’s pocket during the altercation because the 7-11 bag was found on the other side of the dog walk — the side that Brandy Green lives on.

      IMO, GZ placed the iced tea in Trayvon’s pocket just in case he needed to pad his story of thinking that Trayvon had a weapon. However, that would question his story of Trayvon being on top beating him to death. IOWs, GZ would need to include how he felt a hard object in Trayvon’s pocket when not coming into physical contact with that part of Trayvon’s body.

  20. TruthBTold says:


  21. MedicineBear says:

    I did some research on the Kel-Tec PF9 weapon that GZ used to kill TM. From the following points, a conclusion can reasonably be drawn that GZ’s nose injury was from the gun recoil (and the slide movement of the gun after the trigger was pulled).

    Here is a picture of the gun before being fired:


    Following is a picture of GZ’s gun from evidence. Note how far the top movement of the gun slides back (this picture is of GZ’s actual gun, unloaded and without the clip). DURING THE RECOIL this is what the gun would look like an instant after pulling the trigger (the backward slide movement ejects the spent cartridge):


    (1) The Kel-Tec PF9 is a very LIGHT handgun causing a VERY STRONG RECOIL back toward the shooter.

    (2) The top of the gun slides back considerably DURING THE RECOIL after the trigger has been pulled (this automatic action ejects the spent cartridge).

    (3) GZ fired the gun with one hand (making the recoil even harder to control). He fired with his right hand.

    (4) Evidence indicates that TM and GZ were very close to each other when the gun was fired. The evidence indicates GZ had a cramped, bent-elbow firing posture (making the gun close to GZ’s own face rather than allowing an extended-arm firing posture that is the norm for target practice).

    (5) GZ has a laceration on the RIGHT SIDE of the bridge of his nose.

    The above evidence is consistent with the recoil and backward motion of the reloading slide hitting GZ on the right side of his nose after he pulled the trigger.

    A couple more points:

    (7) Evidence indicates that GZ was using his left hand to hold TM by his shirt(s). In GZ’s own statement(s) he said he “aimed to avoid shooting [his own left] hand.”

    (8) Some of the evidence that is INCONSISTENT with the laceration on right side of GZ’s nose being caused by TM punching him:

    (a) The laceration is more consistent with being caused by a hard object (like the slide movement of the gun) than a hand.

    (b) TM is right-handed and would have had to have thrown a punch with his weaker arm to contact GZ’s right side.

    (c) GZ said he was looking down to the right (for his phonegun) and that TM was behind and left of GZ when he was hit in the nose. GZ looking down and right makes it very difficult for someone to the left of him to even access the RIGHT side of GZ’s nose.

    (d) There’s much more, but a final inconsistency I’ll note is why, if TM wanted to ambush GZ, why did TM alert GZ (“You got a problem, HOMIE?”) before the ambush, and WHY didn’t TM use the excellent weapon in his front pocket — a full heavy metal can of tea?

  22. Lonnie Starr says:

    I’ll take No. 2: One isn’t inclined to move when one has a gun pointed at them. So it takes no effort on GZ’s part to immobilize TM. Where any movement, sudden or otherwise, could cause the gunman to open fire, at gun point, the only real option is to freeze.
    You can talk, yell even scream, but you don’t want to move, since the shooter will probably take movement as a danger signal.

    • Fed-up taxpayer says:

      The boy had his hands up!

      • Malisha says:

        I agree, Fedup, because George has the habit of incorporating little visual impressions into his false narratives. His story, “I spread his hands apart” means to me there was a picture in George’s mind of Trayvon with his hands up, spread apart. “The suspect emerged from the darkness” means to me that George, while hunting around for where “the asshole” had run to, finally got a glimpse of Trayvon, who was concealed in the darkness. Even “I had blood in my eyes” is a description of George who, by that time, was “seeing red.”

      • Xena says:

        I agree, Fedup, because George has the habit of incorporating little visual impressions into his false narratives.

        Oh yes! And, “I wanted to get an address” means, “I wanted to capture and restrain and then let you know where to come get the f’ing punk.”

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yes and that’s when TM’s child like voice and frightened demeanor would tell GZ that he had not captured a thug.

          It’s clear that GZ was thinking about what the police would find when they arrived. If so, he’d quickly realize the police would see he had not captured a thug. Worse yet, the boy would be asking “Why was he following me?” Even if GZ were able to talk his way out of it at that moment that night, he’d know that would not be the end of it. The kids parents are likely to raise as big stink later on.

          The police know that too, so it’s much more likely they’d ask GZ why he followed. If he’d already put his hands on the kid, then things would begin to get much, much worse. Going to the station for assault, then “empty your pockets” and a pat search, his gun!
          News paper headlines screaming “NW Captain assaults Child”, he can kiss his LEO dreams goodbye and a jail term looms.

          I can see GZ’s mind working: “If only the kid hadn’t run! This is all his fault that I won’t be getting a badge or a medal”. Then, “How the hell do I explain this? The kid is sure to talk!” So GZ makes a decision and pulls his gun, he’s going to fix the case.

          • Patricia says:

            “Newspaper headlines screaming “NW Captain assaults Child”, he can kiss his LEO dreams goodbye and a jail term looms. I can see GZ’s mind working: “If only the kid hadn’t run! This is all his fault that I won’t be getting a badge or a medal”. Then, “How the hell do I explain this? The kid is sure to talk!” So GZ makes a decision and pulls his gun, he’s going to fix the case.”

            We’re all on the same page, Lonnie. Thank you!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Aw shucks, thanks… But you guys are doing all the heavy lifting for me.

      • Justkiddin* says:

        The boy had his hands up!

        While GZ had his head up his ass. How can a 28 year old man not feel bad that he shot and killed a unarmed person? A unarmed child?

  23. Justkiddin* says:

    (1) Did Zimmerman grip Martin’s sweatshirt and shirt with his left hand?
    I believe so. Trayvon would have beat feet otherwise.

    (2) If he did not (or even if he did) how did he immobilize Martin so that he could aim and squeeze off the perfect shot to the heart, or was it just a lucky shot?
    I believe he used one of those painful holds a police officer would use.

    (3) How and when did Zimmerman sustain the injuries to his nose and the back of his head?
    I really wish I could say that Trayvon went all super-kid on Z. But I believe Z kicked his own ass. JMO

    (4) Do you believe the injury to his nose was caused by the recoil of his gun when he fired the fatal shot?
    The recoil maybe or when Martin fell his head hit Zs snout.

    (5) What do you believe explains the presence of Zimmerman’s blood on Martin’s shirt?
    I believe Z’s blood dropped on T’s shirt when he was flipping him over and molesting his body. No other reason for this worthless POS to be touching a kid after shooting him, imo. Especially since he feared him. Puke.

    (6) What do you believe explains the presence of Zimmerman’s blood on the grip of his gun?
    After dropping the gun, molesting the corpse Z did not want to make LE feel threatened so when he picked up the gun to holster it he left a drop on the gun. To bad LE did not feel threatened and give Z the same trial he gave Martin.

    I know I am a little harsh but as a Mother, Grand-mother and Great grand-mother this p.o.s. really wears on my last old worn out nerve.

  24. Fed-up taxpayer says:

    Through all of these many observations and analyses, I keep thinking, “Poor Trayvon.”

    So many things are wrong that something like this has happened.

  25. Xena says:

    I am unable to give a full answer to the questions at this time because I am somewhat emotional. Before I continue, I would like to point out that the lab report returned a result that debris was found on Trayvon’s sweatshirt and hoodie.

    The raising of the hoodie could have resulted from Trayvon being placed in a restraint hold, or during the wrestling.

    What I see of Trayvon is a kid not knowing the creepy guy’s motives. Thus, he asked, “Why are you following me?” Rather than get an answer, Trayvon was attacked by GZ. Trayvon had no idea what was happening, and his instinct was to get adult help. His only hope was to keep GZ on the ground until help arrived.

    It was GZ who was on a mission. GZ was in control.

    As painful as it is listening to the 911 recording with Trayvon screaming, I continue to listen. Once I heard GZ’s voice in the background, I’ve listened to hear changes in Trayvon’s screams. After I detected GZ’s voice saying “fuck,” I hear a very painful scream, followed by a drawn out “No,” followed by a faint “help” that is cut short with the gun shot. That faint “help” could have been Trayvon being out of breath, or having the position of his body changed so that the sound was no longer in the direction of Witness 11’s house. It could have also been faint and short if his body was jerked.

    It is my impression that after GZ told Trayvon to “Shut the fuck up,” that GZ then removed his hand off Trayvon’s mouth along with his grip on Trayvon, and unholstered his gun. GZ probably thought all would be fine; that Trayvon would stop screaming and be still. However, Trayvon raised to his feet and screamed again. It would take very little at that point for GZ to grab and jerk Trayvon’s body towards him and fire the shot into Trayvon’s heart. I do not believe that Trayvon fell face down, but rather, GZ rolled his body over hoping to give support to his story that Trayvon was on top of him.

    That in fact, I believe that GZ’s story about spreading Trayvon’s arms was all a cover-up in the event that his DNA was found on Trayvon’s cuffs and wrists.

    IMO, GZ’s blood on the grip of his gun was when he decided to holster it, before rolling Trayvon’s body over, getting Trayvon’s blood on his hands. The paramedic who washed blood off GZ stated that GZ had blood on his arms. This is another issue like the keys and the tactical flashlight — GZ never says anything about wiping his face or touching his own head.

    • I’ve haven’t had much to say on these recent post because it is very upsetting to hear those 911 tapes. Plus, I’m battling peo[ple who only want to protect their gun rights..they are blind to the truth..

      It makes me emotional so lately I just read and post now and then… The details are very disturbing…of how this young lost his life. It was so unnecessary….

      • Brown says:

        hang in there
        : ^ )

      • Xena says:

        @Everyone. God bless you for your patience. I don’t have patience to debate people over gun rights.

        I’m sorry, but the thought that anyone would want a gun to shoot a dog that cornered his wife but not attack her, has to be a nut!

        • William Walton says:

          I am a hunter. However, what you say, I would definatly take or have the gun taken away from him. Also, he should not be allowed to buy a gun again.

      • Xena says:

        @William Walton. That is GZ’s reason for buying a gun.

        The lab report found non-human blood on GZ’s jacket, which makes me wonder if he has killed someone’s dog.


      • bettykath says:

        The dog probably was just being friendly. My sister has a couple of pit bulls that can be real pests wagging their whole bodies and wanting to kiss (yuck) and be acknowledged. Their “hellos” are awesome. They’re big enough to be scary if you don’t know how to read them. I think GZ was being alpha male protecting his little woman.

      • bettykath says:

        GZ has a dog.

      • Xena says:

        When my Sheba (April 1998 – Dec. 31, 2009) was a puppy, I lived in a gated community that did not allow fences. Some folks used electric fences and some of their dogs were escape artists. I nicknamed one Houdini. I didn’t want to deprive Sheba from learning to walk on lease, neither her exercise. My routine was to wear a shirt tied around my waste, and carry dog biscuits. Having volunteered for an animal shelter once, I was taught that the way to prevent or stop an attacking dog was to cover their eyes — thus, the reason for the shirt. They calm down when they can’t see.

        For distraction purposes, throw them a biscuit.

        It saddens me that GZ would think the way to handle a loose dog (who has not bitten anyone although loose several times), would be to buy a gun. Wasp spray has a further reach and acts immediately.

        It’s a good thing that no one brought their dog with them to the NW meetings, because GZ evidently was carrying his gun there too.

      • Jun says:

        Those people are idiots. If anything, supporting GZ’s actions will be detrimental to gun rights as now the gov’t is likely to put more lockdowns on gun rights. Z is an example of irresponsible gun ownership. Besides that, a moral standing and empathy for a kid who lost his life is more well placed.

      • Tzar says:

        the people who have the knee jerk reaction of making this about gun rights people are grotesque and callous. If gun rights were not affected by Giffords being shot then this case won’t either, so calm the fu*k down and stop trampling over the dignity and humanity of the deceased, your guns are safe

    • We’re getting down to the nitty gritty now and I know it’s tough. Believe me I do.

      I studied in excruciating detail all of the investigative reports, including glossy color photos of the body recovery sites, remains and autopsies of the 49 victims, some identified and some still unidentified, of the Green River Killer.

      I also studied their life histories and saw photos of what they looked like in happier times when they were alive. Most of them were children under the age of 18 and one of them looked like my daughter.

      That was it for me. About a year later, I closed my practice and walked away from the practice of law forever.

      When some people who shall remain nameless said I was an incompetent, disgraced and disbarred lawyer facing felony charges, which were a couple of non-criminal traffic violations, I had to resist the urge to go hunting because I really wanted to hurt someone.


      • Tee says:

        The journey may be tough it may be long but when truth is on your side it makes the journey bearable. Fight on! The only thing that vanish darkness is light :))

      • Xena says:

        Oh my Professor. There is deep compassion in those who choose careers in service. Sadly, some folks CANNOT understand that.

        I only assisted one attorney in a murder case. Seeing photos of the murdered victim caused me to sit still like a statute for about 20 minutes. I couldn’t take my eyes off the photo, neither wanted to continue looking. That was once a living human being!! The attorney I assisted was defending the accused.

        I’ve not taken on a criminal case project since.

        It’s a hard task looking at those photos. They do have a voice.

      • jun says:

        Thats good Freddy

        It def would not feel good defending people like that, especially if there is a chance your client is guilty

      • thejbmission says:

        I can relate Professor Leatherman. Words are hurtful especially when they attack your character and your profession.
        As soon as I sang your praises on my site, I had someone leave a very nasty comment about you. I immediately spammed it.
        How dare someone belittle and malign you because they don’t agree with your opinion! Not only that, you’re using your real name, yet they hide behind a screen name. I’d like to Google their name and see what I can come up with. It’s unfair and I commend and respect you for hanging in there.
        To this day, I still get hateful comments because I believed that Casey Anthony was innocent of 1st degree murder and I wouldn’t allow anyone to refer to her attorney Jose Baez as Bozo on my blog. Jose Baez was doing his job protecting his client. If it weren’t for defense attorneys we wouldn’t have anyone to fight for our rights.
        I hope I haven’t caused you any problems by posting here. If so, I’ll be glad to change my screen name. You’d know it was me from my IP address.
        Thank you Professor for educating us and keeping us up to date with the evidence piling against GZ. Much appreciated.

  26. I wonder how the defense will deal with this DNA evidence? It looks very bleak for GZ… I just hope they do not start with the contaminated evidence lines.

    Also, by hiring a world reknown expert witness like Dr. Henry Lee or Cyril Wecht help the case? Anyone can answer…

    • Jun says:

      Its a typical defense lawyer trick and there is basis for this. However, if a judge and jury were to notice all the lies from Z, witnesses contradicting Z’s claims, Corey’s rep and paperwork to back up all her work, they are likely to go with Corey as Omara is not likely to have evidence or a scientific argument to his attempts.

  27. jun says:

    1). Yes. I have even tested the theory with a hoodie of mine with an ice tea in the pocket. No swinging or stretching from the shoulder to that spot of entry without a forceful grip.

    2). There’s likely stretch marks where Zimmerman grasped. Plus Z has a gun. Fairly easy to immobilize a kid with a gun who Z outweighed and had ither physical and mental advantages over

    3). A witness did see Zimmerman, lying on the ground by himself as if he slipped and fell. I believe he scraped his head then. The nose was Zimmerman with the flashlight or gun. There’s a scratch on the left side of his nose.

    4). Consider the positions of Z & T, its possible. The gun has strong recoil

  28. CommonSenseForChange says:

    @Professor Leatherman –

    “(1) Did Zimmerman grip Martin’s sweatshirt and shirt with his left hand?”


    “(2) If he did not (or even if he did) how did he immobilize Martin so that he could aim and squeeze off the perfect shot to the heart, or was it just a lucky shot?”

    The boy was concerned with getting away, so his actions were more focused on getting away. Zimmerman had the advantage here because his motive was to not let the victim get away. Zimmerman pulled on the child’s clothing to prevent him from fleeing Zimmerman’s attack/detainment and then yelled “stop” at the child just before he shot him.

    (3) How and when did Zimmerman sustain the injuries to his nose and the back of his head?

    Either during or after the shot — self inflicted. Unsure, but the **scratch*** on Zimmerman’s nose was not a result of Trayvon Martin scratching him since Trayvon Martin did NOT have Zimmerman’s DNA in his fingernail scrapings.

    (4) Do you believe the injury to his nose was caused by the recoil of his gun when he fired the fatal shot?

    Possibly. I can’t see how Trayvon Martin inflicted a nose scratch since no DNA was found on Trayvon Martin.

    (5) What do you believe explains the presence of Zimmerman’s blood on Martin’s shirt?

    Zimmerman frisked Trayvon Martin and deliberately tainted the evidence and crime scene. Zimmerman drew his own blood somehow (for evidence he knew would justify his violence just as he explained to Shellie and his family regarding his prior violent episodes) and then placed it on Trayvon Martin’s person.

    (6) What do you believe explains the presence of Zimmerman’s blood on the grip of his gun?

    Zimmerman said he put his gun in holster after murdering Trayvon Martin in order not to intimidate the police. It could have been there previously as well. No DNA from Trayvon Martin was found on the gun holster which Zimmerman claims Trayvon Martin felt up as he supposedly went for Zimmerman’s gun.

    • Two sides to a story says:

      GZ never said TM “felt up” the firearm. He said TM ran his hand down his side, something to that effect. No direct contact with gun.

  29. bettykath says:

    William, you have dazzled me. I think it more likely that GZ released TM immediately after the shot and was dealing with his banged up nose. The blood transfer came as he stood over TM.

    With GZ having so much bleeding, I don’t understand why there isn’t his blood on the back of TM’s hoodie.

    • William Walton says:

      Bettykath, reread what I wrote. Also keep in mind that there was calculated <6 seconds for all this to occur. One thing scientist do is to try and consider as well as explain what is missing in what they are told. Having degrees in Chemistry and Chemical Engineering this is just what I tried to do. I might not be totally right, however, it may get others thinking such that additional senarios are developed. This type of situation is not based on who is right but what each can contribute to come up with a reasonable conclusion. Bettykath, to respond to your comment that GZ released TM immediately I do not think so. My Dad was an MD and he always stated that it takes awhile for muscles to relax. This is why they would give atropine sulfate before surgery. This post was just stating a new point of view. Also, keep in mind that GZ's adrinalin (sp?) was pumping at an extremely high rate. The (sp?) is in place such that I do not embarass my Dad3

      • bettykath says:

        William, I’ve reconsidered. I was going to write a response that would have been much like what the professor said. If TM fell forward it, GZ backward, it would explain the head injuries. Some have said the sprinklers, which I haven’t seen. I think the concrete cover that’s in the middle of the crime scene. Whatever. This would also explain how GZs booboos happened so late. This also suggests the possibility that if it wasn’t TM;s head that hit GZ’s nose, or if it wasn’t the gun recoil (also a possibility), it might be the gun itself as TM fell forward pushing GZ’s hand/gun back into his face with force.

        • There’s also the ejected-shell-casing theory.

        • William Walton says:

          Bettykath, think as a scientist would. TM once shot is (dead weight). I really do not like describing TM that way but that is how it is stated in Physics. Thus, as dead weight TM’s lifeless body would have more force falling than an unstable CZ would. Thus, they would fall to the ground together with TM’s body being the dominant force because it is in “Free Fall”. CZ is trying to find a way to stop his free fall. However, with a time frame of <6 seconds does not leave him any time.

      • Jun says:

        I dont feel Zimmerman let go after the killing. We are talking about a guy that lunged on a dying kid, molesting his body. I believe Z held on, threw TM to the ground, stood over him, flipped T to his stomach and commenced straddling and molesting, pinning and torturing a dying kid facedown

    • bettykath says:

      I’m not sure what the ejected shell casing theory is but if it means that shell casing caused some injuries, what would they be? Would it be hot enough to leave a noticeable burn?

    • Patricia says:

      BettyKath, Professor, and classmates –

      Here is the report on the vault cover:

      BettyKath, the irrigation valve vault cover you are looking for (and likely the exact one in question) can be found on Axiom Amnesia under “Trayvon Martin-George Zimmerman.”

      Select: “Photos.”

      Then look at the right-hand sidebar: “Check out the Evidence.”

      Check third selection: “Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman Case Evidence Photos.”

      Scroll almost all the way down the sidebar to “Photos.”

      Two selections you want:

      “FDLE Neighborhood Photos”. Under the proof sheet you will see 1-4. Select sheet #2: photos 23, 24, 25, 26. Those will show you the fluorescent orange markings and the visible adjacent vault cover. I expect the smaller fluorescent marking by the concrete curb is where a sprinkler head is buried.

      (You would not expect to see them when the water pressure’s off. Sprinklers should be flush to the earth, under the grass. When the valve is opened, the water-pressure forces the sprinkler head to rise on its spring inside the pipe – 6” or so. When the water pressure is turned off, the head drops. They are supposed to be ground-level so they are not snapped off their pipes by lawn grooming equipment. If they’re broken, water shoots out uncontrollably when they are turned on, a great loss.)

      Then go back to the sidebar for Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman Case Evidence Photos:

      Select line below: Misc. Photos (Note – these were taken by SPD).

      Check out Proof Sheet #2: photos 23-29 show debris field crime scene markers, with vault cover visible. Same sheet #2, check out photos 40, 41. (w/yellow tripod). This is at “The T” with the dog station. Look in the left side “Ell” of the concrete T (it’s the side with the dog station). About 1”-2” in from the corner of the ell you will see a little circle about the size of a US quarter. That is the CENTER of a sprinkler head. These are normaly buried flush along the sidewalk, at 12 ft. intervals. Now, look at the corner of the ell, across from it. In that location (see under the tripod) is the same fluorescent orange glow. (Law enforcement may have some translucent vinyl film they use, not spray paint, to temporarily mark spots they want to identify.) This is not an optical illusion or reflection off the yellow tripod. You can see it at a distance in shots 46, 47 and 48 of that same sheet. That location would be a sprinkler head also – each are 2”-3” across.

      So, BettyKath, there are at least two circular items at ground level where the fight ended that are capable of giving GZ a circle indentation mark on his head, and capable of cutting or abrading his head if dragged over it: the vault cover, the sprinkler head, and “unknown” (but marked in orange at the death site) and FDLE is interested in them.

      And so are we. But it looks like they thought of it before we did – FDLE photos were taken late spring when the leaves had grown out in full vigor.

      • William Walton says:

        Patricia, hitting the ground with the force that GZ would have being bounced from TM’s body would be sufficient to cause the abrasions since if GZ hit one of the retracted sprinkler heads at gound level the grass would be compressed.

        • Patricia says:


          “Patricia, hitting the ground with the force that GZ would have being bounced from TM’s body would be sufficient to cause the abrasions since if GZ hit one of the retracted sprinkler heads at gound level the grass would be compressed.”

          Well, sure William, just stepping on one of them can wreck an ankle for 5 years. That’s St. Augustine grass, and its really a tough, flat turf, so it’s low anyway. You fall with any force over a sprinkler head, or get draged across it, and you’ll be very, very sorry.

          Look, William, I loved your scenario – Murder One to a T.

          But there’s no way Zimmerman would let Trayvon get to his feet (and Zim had a 52 lb, advantage), not wih his training. Keeping Trayvon on the ground for the coup de grace was the most efficient, easiest thing for Zimmerman to do.

          There was no gracious, “Here, let me give you a hand up” that night. Zimmerman didn’t play by the Marquis of Queensbury Rules,

          Or the Geneva Convention, either.

          • William Walton says:

            Patricia; it really does not make much sense to throw TM to the ground when CZ is larger in size and has hold of TM standing up. In science, we keep an open mind and study the facts. I often wonder what your background is?

  30. PYorck says:

    I hope someone on the prosecution team followed up with Siewert and Dr. Bao to nail down this point as well as the apparent discrepancy between her characterization of the hole as having been caused by the muzzle of the gun in contact with the fabric and his characterization of the shot having been fired from an intermediate range (i.e., 0.5 centimeters to 1 meter).

    At the risk of stating the obvious, there is another point to keep in mind.

    Since we know that the shot was perpendicular to the torso but not necessarily to the shirt, all else equal increasing the gap between body and shirt means that you need more fabric to cover the distance between the seam an the line of the shot. This would result in a hole further down the shirt, partially masking the effect of pulling or stretching the shirt downward (which results in a hole closer to the shoulder seam).

    That means that (if I understand your experiment correctly) the distance you measured is a lower limit. Depending on the exact arragement the required displacement could have been even bigger than apparent.

    • Great points friends! First of all, I am a contact lens wearer since I have been a teenager and I was once punched in the face (in Junior High and I punched this heifer right back) however, my contact lens became dislodged so I always carry my glasses with me just in case to this day. GZ was punched in the face, why didn’t they become dislodged? If blood was in his eyes, they would have come out due the fluid causing them to come out. Anyone on here who wears soft contact lens knows exactly what I am talking about.

      Friends, you already know from previous posts, my opinion of GZ not validating his injuries by a Medical Professional. Being a Nurse, I find it repugnant that he continues to lie about everything including his injuries. He knows exactly how he sustained those injuries! He didn’t seek medical attention because the Doctors would have drawn blood, and a tox screen would have been done. GZ also would have been had all of his injuries evaluated, and the Medical team at the hospital would have determined that his injuries were not consistent with what GZ states transpired that night.

      • Patricia says:

        @Deborah –

        Love this TRUTH! “Doctors would have drawn blood, and a tox screen would have been done. GZ also would have been had all of his injuries evaluated, and the Medical team at the hospital would have determined that his injuries were not consistent with what GZ states transpired that night.”

  31. CherokeeNative says:

    (1) Did Zimmerman grip Martin’s sweatshirt and shirt with his left hand?
    I believe he did. I believe this fits with the forensics and his explanation that he had to make sure to position his left hand so as to not shoot it when he pulled the trigger.

    (2) If he did not (or even if he did) how did he immobilize Martin so that he could aim and squeeze off the perfect shot to the heart, or was it just a lucky shot?
    I believe GZ was on top of Trayvon when he shot him – hitting his mark was not lucky – it was a direct kill shot that GZ intended to inflict.

    (3) How and when did Zimmerman sustain the injuries to his nose and the back of his head?
    I believe the injuries to GZ head were caused by the sprinkler heads. One of the scrapes has a half-circle or arc to it. The injury to the nose was caused by the shell casing flying back and to the right hitting him in the nose. I do not believe GZ that his nose was broken.

    (4) Do you believe the injury to his nose was caused by the recoil of his gun when he fired the fatal shot?
    I strongly believed that the nose injury was the cause of the recoil of the gun at first – but since I am no longer of the belief that GZ was on the bottom when he pulled the shot, I do not see how that could be possible. I am sticking with my theory that the nose was not broken and the little scab on the side of his nose is from the shell casing.

    (5) What do you believe explains the presence of Zimmerman’s blood on Martin’s shirt?
    As you have stated – either while leaning over Trayvon or while he was searching his body after he killed Trayvon.

    (6) What do you believe explains the presence of Zimmerman’s blood on the grip of his gun?
    As I recall, one of the witnesses at one point mentions that the gun was resting on the ground after the shot was fired…GZ then picks it up to put it in its holster and asks the witness if he is bleeding – I believe this is when Zimmerman’s blood was transferred to the gun.

    • Dennis says:

      I agree with you. A broken nose is painful. If he had a broken nose, he would not have denied EMT in my opinion. Maybe he broke it himself later on, I’m just not sure.

      • jm says:

        Zimmerman went to see a physician assistant the next day but no x-rays were done. He was advised to see an ENT specialist but did not follow up. “The physician’s assistant, Lindzee E. Folgate wrote. “We discussed that it is likely broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation,” the report said. “The swelling and black eyes are typical of this injury. I recommended that he be evaluated by ENT but he refused.”

        In Zimmerman reenactment video his eyes did not appear to be black to me and his nose looked relatively normal.

      • racerrodig says:

        I agree. If he was hit hard enough in the nose to break it, he would have seen the proverbial “stars” and may have had a concussion of some sort. I think he hit the dog poopie sign with his nose and bent down in pain. When he stood back up, he hit the backside of his head. All 3 scratches look like they were inflicted by a straight object.
        I was unaware his flashlight had blood on it. That presents a major hurdle if it’s true.

    • gblock says:

      We know that Zimmerman’s nose was bloody, but do we actually know that it was broken? In the reenactment video, his nose is not bandaged or swollen looking. Were x-rays taken?

      • Patricia says:

        GBlock, Zimmerman REFUSED every validation. Did not want any proof his nose was NOT broken. Did not want any proof his skull was NOT pummeled.

        Did not want to risk any blood draw that might show drug abuse.

        Just coasted on telling his fabulocity story. Almost got away with it, too.

        PInnochio, with a gun.

      • Tee says:

        No he refused

  32. Tee says:

    I don’t think he pulled Martin sweat shirt downward but I do think that he restrained Martin by straddling him pinning his arms at his side also causing the shirts to be pulled and tucked under Zimmerman body. Martin continued to try to sit up zimm press his weight into martins chest with his left hand this is where zimm reverse their roles I believe. Martin keep screaming zimm shut the F up zimmer unholster aim perfect and take the shot gun recoil hits him in the nose causing the straight line and bleeding and a small trickle of blood. He may have gotten blood on martin when he stood up using his hand to touch his nose to check for bleeding after shot.

    1. Zimm got the the blood on his gun from touching his nose then putting the gun back in its holster

    2. Zimm injuries to the back of head came from black tactical flashlight seconds after shooting and before he frisked Martin this explains the 2nd flashlight being close by with blood on it and it explains the fresh blood flow pattern towards the face and the drop on the exposed shirt.

    3. I do believe Martin hit Zimm when Zimmer grab him from behind and tried to stop him from leaving before the cops arrived. Roles reversed again.
    Martin turned and started for home after arguing with Zimm that’s why they are so far from the tee.

    • Pat deadder says:

      I’m somewhat concerned about all these different scenarios.Does the prosecution have to offer a different theory or just disprove gz’s bs.My prayers to Trayvon’s family.I only hope justice prevails.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        No, the SP will be working on their own case. What’s going on here is “investigative thinking”, where we’re sifting through what we have and trying to come up with a scenario that fits in the overall. It’s not as idle a process as it seems, because when it fits the points in evidence best, it can generate leads to be looked at next. Without an on point theory, you can’t see what questions should be raised and/or what needs answers next.

        Thing is, everybody isn’t on the same page, some are new and just trying their hand at it, posting what they believe they understand from what they’ve read so far. Sometimes it’s helpful, since, people who haven’t brought into a theory, may see something those forging ahead may have missed.

        We have the luxury of not being constrained by rules of evidence, rules of law etc., or departmental schedules and budgets. So we get to take full advantage of that, plus we get many more takes on the matter, and we get to see which pieces of evidence are having the greatest impact on those doing the very tough detailed work.

        It’s a process where interested parties bring different skills and some people even learn a thing or two by joining in and being corrected by evidence, or just by becoming better informed.
        So, sit back and enjoy the ride.

      • William Walton says:

        Prof: a lot of the comments are what the witnesses saw during the night TM was shot. These blogs jarred my memory back to my days of being a University student in the ’60’s. At that time, I was involved in research as were several other students with a Chemistry professor, There was a Criminology Professor, Dr. Clyde Vetter, who would have us perform instrumental analyses for him under the direction of our professor since we were Grunt Labor. Clyde was called upon from time to time to give expert witness testimony. Clyde had a research project he was conducting on witness observation. He invited us Chemistry students to participate in his research project. The project involved us watching a film of a scuffle taking place during a foggy night even though the area had some lighting. After the film we were given a sheet of paper with questions which had to be answered in detail. No mutiple choice. We were allowed to think about what we observed for one week. Most participants came to the conclusion that a gang was attacking another gang because of the action taking place and all the yelling. We Chem students answered that the action because of the darkness and the fog a definite determination could not be concluded. The next week we were shown the film taken during daylight which showed a bunch of high school guys playing football. One gal stated that highschool guys do dumb things. To which Clyde replied much like College Students. Clyde’s conclusion was that witnesses come to a conclusion and this conclusion is reinforced over time as they think about it. Just another concept.

        It is also interesting to note that many of the respondents feel that TM was on the ground when shot. My question regarding this thesis is since TM would be moving around on the ground trying to escape from CZ why is there no mention of grass stains on TM’s grey hoodie? Tried it with a piece of dry grey flannel on dry Texas St Agustine grass and the grass stains showed up very distinctively.

        All for now. I shall now go back to playing Geo-Chemist and Geo-Engineer on some of the oil wells I am writing procedures to treat.

        • Patricia says:

          @William Walton

          Take a look at the photo of the back of Zimmerman’s head, taken immediately after the fatal shot, that shows the crisp dried blood trails resulting from extensive capillary action bleeding and the resulting forward flow of blood across the cheek into Zimmerman’s Fu Machu beard, a blood flow pattern that could only happen if Zimmerman had his head inclined forward, looking over “something” (in this case, Martin, on the ground, beneath him). The blood had coagulated at the time the photo was made – immediately after the killing.

          Now tell us how this dried blood pattern would be derived from, as your theory states, Zimmerman’s falling onto, and then bouncing off, Martin’s body, after Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin, standing up.

          That photo will be prominently displayed to the jury.
          The blood trails will be noticed.

          Please give us your learned input.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Do we have any photos or other evidence/testimony that says GZ did not have these wounds when he left his truck? I think not.

            So, no one can say that a view of GZ’s head, wasn’t what frightened Trayvon so much that he ran. GZ may have grass stains on his back, but not because TM hit him and knocked him down.

            Now that we know there’s no grass stains on TM’s back, we might also note whether there were grass stains on the legs of TM’s pants. Shouldn’t TM have grass stains from toe to knee on his pant legs?

        • Patricia says:

          @ William Walton

          It was night and the rains had been heavy. Trayvon Martin’s hoodie was also very wet. The St. Augustine grass in February is not in full plant juice content. There was plenty of water lubrication on the grass to provide slippage during contact without bruising the St. Augustine and extracting its minimal juice.

          The ME has retained sweepings from both Zimmerman’s and Martin’s clothing. No analysis of same has been released.

          Are you now saying these two were NEVER on the ground during this entire encounter?

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I think he’s saying that, if GZ lays in the grass and his jacket picks up grass stains, then TM’s back should have picked up grass stains as well. I also added that so should TM’s pant legs in front.

            Otherwise, we need another explanation for GZ’s jacket picking up grass stains. Because the grass would not selectively stain clothing. If it stains clothing that touch it, it stains all clothing that touches it. If it doesn’t stain clothing that touches it, then none of the stains are from clothing touching it.

            Maybe those grass stains on GZ’s jacket need to be checked again. Perhaps the grass stains were prepared elsewhere too.

            Wouldn’t that be a kick in the head?

          • Patricia says:

            Lonnie, these guys were on the grass during the bulk of the struggle. More details on stain, DNA and debris analysis will emerge. There will be some diffrence bewteen fabrics for debris adherence.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            There are many versions surrounding this part of the events, as you say the evidence we need to decide which of them is true is not available yet, or it hasn’t yet been reviewed. Thus, as long as someone is presenting a theory that is supported by a reasonable view of how the evidence should appear (as “if there’s grass stains on this that touched the grass, there should be grass stains on that also, since it touched the grass as well).

            If a well contrived theory has them both standing, it cost us nothing to consider it. Either way it isn’t going to mean that GZ is innocent or guilty, if he is, or if he is not, unless it establishes that.

            As far as using the word “struggle” the only one here that I see struggling is TM. He’s trying to get away, but he has to stop trying the moment he sees a gun pointed at him, since a “false move” can and probably will result in him getting shot. My guess is that, at some point TM realizes GZ is crazed and that no amount of talking or submission is going to stop him. TM takes leave of his better senses and yells at the top of his lungs. It’s all he can do, hope that someone will come to his aid and stop the progressive aggression.

            In any event, once GZ draws his weapon, he knows there’s no turning back at all, if TM lives to tell his side of this story GZ is going to lose big time.

            What’s interesting to me is, GZ knew this could happen months ago when he took the 14 hour course. He shows this knowledge in his fastidious adherence to NW rules during this time, and by avoiding being caught in violation of them. He knows what he must not be seen doing, because he knows the rules. So, when it comes to this night, you see him weaving a story that excuses him from, what? NW rules!

            These rules are specifically designed to avoid encounters just such as this one, where two parties mistakenly misread the intent of the other. With disastrous results if one or both parties are armed. So, why does he enter such a situation, unless he intends this result?

            He has “defended” himself by picking someone he knew not to be armed! But, under any scenario he could not expect to obtain purely superficial wounds by any method, while his attention was needed to accomplish the mission. So, if the wounds were to be used to embellish the narrative of self defense, and the wounds were of uniformed character, then they had to have been created in “laboratory” like conditions. Conditions which only existed well before the encounter took place.

            Obviously, hitting his head on sprinklers or signs or other projections around the area, could not be counted on, not to cause wounds of such irregularity, that professional medical attention would be mandatory. Obviously if he had broken a leg, for example, the police would not ask him if he wanted to go to the hospital. If the head wounds were deeper than superficial, anywhere along the course, he would not have been asked if he wanted to go to the hospital.

            The only way he gets wounds, that can assure that he won’t be taken to the hospital by routine procedure is to ensure that the wounds are entirely superficial. Random acts that injure cannot ensure uniformly superficial injuries. Thus the unbreakable logic is, the wounds were created elsewhere, not capture at the scene.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            @Patricia: During the bulk of “the encounter”, “struggle” is not in evidence, except as hearsay by GZ. Now that the “MMA style punches” has been withdrawn. We’ve got to stop using descriptions of actions that no longer have any support in evidence. Because it carries forward a false view that we will continue to find clouding our view and confusing new comers.

            The evidence is now changed to the point where the once believed fighting and/or struggle is just speculative and without foundation.

            I can’t control what others may want to do or say, but until I see some foundation for a fight or struggle, for me it will be either “encounter” or “contact”. There is evidence that the two were in close contact at some point, but as to what the nature of that close contact was, we have no longer any good reason to believe that it was any kind of combat or aggression/counter aggression.

            Because this board is being vilified widely by pro-Z’s, we’re probably the leaders on this case for much of the internet. At least we’ve got people coming here from a very wide variety of boards. So, it time we ensure that we keep labeling the once believed, but now discredited items, as the speculative status they’ve been returned to by the changing shifts in the disclosures.

          • Patricia says:

            @Lonnie, I am not ready to reject the sworn testimony by John W#6 no matter how vilified he is for his revisions. He was under severe scrutiny by State agents during his second round of testimony and I expect he understands the penalty for perjury.

            I also believe “Get off! Get off relayed by DeeDee notes the moment the altercation went to ground. On a dark, wet night with slippery grass, this is believable.

            I am looking forward to the State’s presentation. Prior to that time I await more information as it is released.

          • One must exercise caution when interpreting trace evidence consisting of hair and fibers because they transfer so easily and it’s difficult to figure out where they came from and how long they were present.

            Matching them to a source is virtually impossible.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Right, got you on that. But here I’m not arguing the distinctions, but merely “what’s good for the geese…” If GZ jacket picks up grass stains from being in contact with the grass, then everything else that is claimed to have come into contact with the grass, should be marked as well. Or a reason for the difference ascertained.

            The GZ hearsay/speculation, is that TM was at some point in a ‘straddling position”, meaning the front of his lower pant legs was in contact with the grass. Shouldn’t they have picked up some grass staining like GZ’s jacket? Or is this yet another proof that the claimed straddling never happened?

          • Patricia says:

            @ Lonnie,

            My understanding is that the instructions were to test for blood and fiber, with DNA testing of the blood. Also stated was that there coud be further testing (without description).

            Please tell me the number of grass stains, their locations, and testing methods.

            Sport clothes can encounter grass stains under many circumstances. I would expect that grass stains examined in this case would also require analysis of the grass in ths location.

            Do you have information for me on this?


          • Lonnie Starr says:

            I was just responding to someone who was postulating that grass stains were missing from other items/areas of clothing that came into contact with the grass. I haven’t seen any work done on the matter, except to see it noted that GZ had grass stains on the back of his jacket. If the analysis hasn’t been done, then we’ll have to wait for it. But, otherwise the various stories about that night should indicate where additional grass stains should also be found. Like GZ’s pants etc.,

          • Patricia says:


            re: “I was just responding to someone who was postulating that grass stains were missing from other items/areas of clothing that came into contact with the grass. I haven’t seen any work done on the matter, except to see it noted that GZ had grass stains on the back of his jacket. If the analysis hasn’t been done, then we’ll have to wait for it. But, otherwise the various stories about that night should indicate where additional grass stains should also be found. Like GZ’s pants etc.,”

            So, where did you “see it noted that GZ had grass stains on the back of his jacket”? The only way someone should note it is if it’s in the Document Dump, tested as “:grass.”

            If these STAINS were not reported in the Document Dump then we are being led off track by a red herring. On purpose.

            Now, one of the EMT’s or LEOs at the station stated Zimmerman had “grass” on his jacket. Well, you can get that stuff rocketing around in a grassy area. (Both guys were down in the grass. You can see grass on the front tips of Zimmerman’s boots at the station.)

            So … it turns out that all this discussion the past two days about
            “grass stains” on Zimm’s jacket was just a red herring.


            (And that comment is NOT directed to you, Lonnnie)

            Thanks for the clarification – MUCH appreciated!

            Now, let’s not have anybody introducing “marshmallow” stains (or lack thereof) as evidence proving their theory. Or guacamole. Or pizza. Or Chanel #5. Or herrings red, or of any other color.

            Doesn’t take long for herrngs to stink …

          • Patricia says:

            OK, Lonnie, I found it:

            “The St. Augustine grass being wet and green would still have left evidence on TM’s hoodie if the above scenio had taken place.” (by William Walton)

            “Thus, with their combined weight and even a small amount of movement some residue of the grass would be on the back of TM’s hoodie.” (by William Walton)

            So here we have The Man of Science HIMSELF deciding what the ME should analyze, and because no such analysis has yet been made (and may never be made, if the ME doesn’t feel it’s needed) and because The Man of Science HIMSELF says the St. Augustine grass would have left evidence on the hoodie – but we don’t yet know if it would or not, or if it did or not, therefore the ONLY theory that we should ALL accept is the Man of Science’s, because he knows more and has more experience (having just rubbed flannel on grass – a remarkable advance in the realm of forensic science) BUT HAS ZERO RESPONSIBILITY that the Medical Examiner has in this case.

            That’s …. just …. not …. good …. enough ….

            But, it’s a pretty good red herring.

            Watch out for it in a couple of days.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            Got it, thanks Patrica.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Exactly the problem I try to avoid. Letting people tell you things about something that happened somewhere else, and trying to deal with that, as though you were there watching. It doesn’t work.

          That’s a very good question about TM’s back and the lack of grass stains. I haven’t yet had to ask myself that question, because I haven’t yet developed an opinion that TM was ever on the ground.
          AFAIK, if he was down, he was laying on top of GZ who pulled him down, or fell because they collided when GZ pulled TM towards himself vigorously.

          Up to now I’ve been trying to sort out the bare bones possibilities connected with TM’s trip to the store, and from the store to the mailboxes. I see the work of those I’m relying on (Whonoze, Tchoupi and a few others), is changing. So I’m holding off on making any more revisions, until they reach a consensus on their material.

          I’m firmly in the “no fight” camp. I do not believe that TM had a disrespectful bone in his body, such that he would or even might assault anybody, let alone an adult who was bigger and heavier.
          MOM is on a losing mission imho, he won’t even find one who will testify that TM ever killed a mouse! Unless I miss my guess, smaller children feel very comfortable around him. While adults are impressed by his cheerfulness. GZ knows that he picked the wrong kid to try to paint as a thug.

          So thank you for pointing out that TM has no grass stains on his hoodie. This can only mean that TM never had his back on the ground. After he’s seen on top of GZ, he had to have sprung back to his feet. Pretty darned quickly as well, starting from when W6 goes back inside. GZ then follows him to his feet and puts him in a very painful hold… But I don’t want to work on this leg of the story just yet. So I’ll just keep this in mind until I do. Thanks again.

      • Xena says:

        Patricia and Lonnie, if I may pipe in …
        I commented to William Walton about the testing for debris on the clothes and shoes for both parties. He responded,

        Xena, finding debris on TM’s hoodie, sweatshirt, both shoes, and both socks would fit into the theory that both were standing when TM was shot. As TM crumpled and began to fall, the weight of GZ would have drug him backwards as they both fell to the ground. Thus, TM’s feet would have been dragged across the grass picking up debris as they went along. Just another thought.

        Maybe what is missing here is why investigators found it necessary to test for debris and not grass. Or, maybe testing for debris includes grass.

        GZ practically mirrored the claims of John Orr, who killed a man and claimed SYG. Orr has already had his immunity hearing and was denied. Among his claims was that he was pinned down, having no means of removing himself, and that his head was bashed on concrete.

        In the Orr case, the State argued that Orr’s clothing lacked debris resulting from being pinned down on his back.

        Here, the lab results for debris returned a finding of debris on Trayvon’s hoodie and sweatshirt, both shoes and both socks. Debris was only found on GZ’s left boot.

        Compared to the Orr case, this is what the prosecution needs to support that GZ was not pinned down on his back.

        I could be wrong, but the State might not try to develop theories to prove whether Trayvon was on his back, standing, kneeling when he was killed. Rather, they have significant evidence to support that with the absence of debris on his clothing, GZ was not pinned down by Trayvon Martin — keeping in mind that being pinned is part of his reason for using self-defense.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Thanks Xena, hmmm… I guess, like the “fight” people have read so many times of, it tends to become viewed as evidence.
          I can’t wade through the evidence in this case because it infuriates me each time GZ’s lies are revealed. I’m sorry, but the evidence and GZ’s own testimony has prejudiced me beyond repair. I was already teetering on the edge when I suddenly heard “skipping”!
          My unprintable response rattled in my head for hours, and even days later there is still a strong afterglow there.

    • Pat deadder says:

      This is the theory I most agree with except TM hitting gz.Maybe Trayvon elbowed him when Zimmerman grabbed in

  33. William Walton says:

    Prof; another science concept for you and your followers to consider. The science concept is Physics; Force of a Falling Object. The falling object in this case is TM’s lifeless body. It has been mentioned in the forensic blogs that it was determined that GZ and TM were standing with GZ tightly holding onto TM’s hoodie as the fatal shot was fired. With GZ holding onto TM, both would be pulling away from each other creating another force. Once the shot was fired, the Physics concept of Force F=m(kg)Xa(force of gravity=9.81m/s^2) comes into play. The m would be the combined kg for TM and GZ which = 181.82 kg. Thus, F=181.82X9.81 = 400.98 Pound Force. It is thought that this force would be sufficient to either break GZ.s nose or at least give him one Hell of a nose bleed when they hit the ground. The resistance to air or the cushioning of the grass would be negligible due to the short distance of the fall. To answer why GZ’s blood appears on the inner sweat shirt and not the hoodie could be explained by the fact that as they were falling, TM’s body was lifeless and crompling. GZ’s body was very taut both from holding onto TM while he was alive and now because he had just shot TM and was now falling. Thus, when they hit the ground, TM;s hoodie was pulled up, and GZ’s nose made contact with TM’s inner sweat shirt. In addition, in Physics it is a well establihed fact that for every Action there ia a Reaction. Thus, with GZ being alive,his body being taut, and the force with which he hit the ground, he would have bounced off the limp body of TM like a spring. If a sidewalk was nearby, impacting this with his head would have caused the abrasions to the back of his head. As my Chemist Daughter and Mechanical Engineer Son always tell me, I hope I have Dumbed this Down Enough. In addition, some will say that GZ would have had time to release the hoodie. Probably not with all that was going on since the calculated time frame would be <6 seconds. Prof, just another concept.

    • CommonSenseForChange says:

      Er, nope. 400+ series classes will explain it. I say this with the kindest intent.

      • William Walton says:

        Took Physics 101, 102, as well as others in the ’60’s. Physics has not changed. Completed the requirements for the degrees in Chemistry as well as Chemical Engineering. Had my calculations reviewed by a PhD in Physics who is a professor of Physics and she was impressed that I remembered after all these years. Therefore, I have no idea where you are coming from. Also, my Dad was an MD who practiced General Medicine, General Surgery, as well as Trauma Surgery. In Trauma Surgery, the trauma resulted from falls and some were very extensive. Thus, it shows very explicitly what the force of gravity can do.

    • I haven’t responded sooner because I have been out and about enjoying this beautiful day zooming about on my motorcycle with Crane. I’ve been thinking about it, however. I’m intrigued.

      So, they are facing each other standing or on their knees and GZ is gripping the sweatshirt when he fires the fatal shot, right?

      Does TM crumple or is he driven back by the shot?

      My guess is that the shot does not knock him back very much, if at all. For one thing, GZ’s grip on the sweatshirt might have been enough to prevent TM from falling backward.

      If, GZ were leaning backward, plus pulling on the sweatshirt when he fired the shot, TM might have fallen toward GZ and GZ might not have been able to get out of the way of TM’s body, especially if he were on his knees and lost his balance.

      TM was about 5 inches taller, but I can still visualize his head striking GZ’s nose without causing an injury to TM’s head.

      Now, if GZ fell backwards and also hit the back of his head on a sprinkler head or the edge of the sidewalk, I can understand a double whammy of bleeding injuries.

      Am I tracking you?

      • cielo62 says:

        Of all the nose-bashing theories I’ve read, Martins body hitting GZ after the shot makes the most sense to me. With Martin pulling backwards with what we can imagine to be all of his strength, and GZ pulling forward with even more strength, that creates an immediate forward movement once the opposing force is suddenly removed. Boom! Martin’s head would smash GZ in the face on his way to the ground face down. I doubt anyone would think to look for GZ DNA on Martin’s forehead? Also that would confirm my suspicion that they were both standing at the time of the actual shot.

        • William Walton says:

          Cleo062, how about free fall backward of a dead body. The force would more than overcome GZ’s pulling forward. Again, once in free fall, GZ’s body weight would be additive to TM free falling body weight. Law of Physics.

          • cielo62 says:

            In tug of war, if one side drops all resistance the pulling side will continue backward in the direction in which they were pulling. Martin was pulling with more than just his body weight; he was exerting force away from GZ (people can move more than their body weight through strength). Martin is shot, he no longer is exerting weight + strength against GZ. GZ is still pulling to hold weight + strength from leaving. As you say , physics would have GZ thrown backwards one Martin is no longer adding his strength to his weight against GZ. Nose smashing is very possible, IMO.

          • William Walton says:

            Cleo062, once TM is shot, he becomes “dead weight” (sorry for using the phase) and pulls CZ forward because CZ’s footing has become unstabilized. In addition CZ has not had time to release TM’s hoodie, so they both tumble to the ground tomorrow. Not hard to understant.

          • cielo62 says:

            I guess a reenactment would help me. But in either case, I see the sudden shift in weight is the most likely cause of the nose bridge crack. Martin’s weight connects with coconut head and the small injury is done.

          • William Walton says:

            Wrong, TM is the non responsive weight. CZ falling with TM now adds weight to the total. The constant is the force of gravity. That is why we can walk as we do on Earth while the Astronauts would bounce when walking on the mopn.

      • William Walton says:

        Prof; good you were riding your motorcycle. I never had a bicycle because Dad was an MD in Chicago and had to maintain the ER certain nights of the month. However, I grew up on the farm and broke my collar bone twice ridding horses but that was OK because it did not involve a bicycle or a car hitting me and it happened on the farm. To answer your questions, it would not seem likely that TM and CZ were on their knees. It seems most plausible that CZ grabbed TM to secure him. Thus, both are pulling against each other creating another force, TM trying to get away and GZ trying to secure TM. Once the shot is fired, and TM is immobilized, there is a complete free fall even more so with regards to CZ because he is larger, he is alive, his adrinelin (sp?) is at a high level because of all that has gone on, he has shot TM, and he is falling. The (sp?) is there such that I do not embarass my Dad. As they fall, TM’s hoodie most likely is pulled up and CZ hits TM limp body face first. The Force Pounds that I stated would be sufficient to either break CZ’s nose or give him one hell of a nose bleed. According to the laws of Physics, for every Action there is a Reaction. Therefore, CZ would have bounced off TM at the same force at which he arrived. As my Dad would state as a Trauma Surgeon, it does not take much of an impact to create trauma. Prof., if you have additional questions, feel free to ask,

        • Thanks for taking the time to explain your theory. I had to think it through before commenting because I didn’t want to make a fool out of myself and wasn’t quite sure what you were saying. I haven’t made up my mind, but think you’re on to something and I take your theory seriously.

          By the way, someone else in a comment I’ve read recently mentioned that GZ wore contacts. The person knew that because GZ told Shellie during one of the recorded jail calls that he hoped they would let him have his contacts soon.

          (H/T to Crane for mentioning the contacts)

          Heh, wonder how he avoided losing them that evening with TM supposedly beating him almost to death and repeatedly slamming his head into the cement?

          BTW, she doesn’t think he would have lost his contacts, if tour theory is right and neither do I.


          • William Walton says:

            Prof; it could have been possible that GZ lost his contacts in the fall. Think about hitting a limp body at 400+ Force Pounds. That is a very extensive impact which most probably could jar most anything loose in the body. To bad Dad is not alive or I could ask him.

      • Xena says:

        By the way, someone else in a comment I’ve read recently mentioned that GZ wore contacts. The person knew that because GZ told Shellie during one of the recorded jail calls that he hoped they would let him have his contacts soon.

        I mentioned that to Patricia in response to her saying that one page of evidence from GZ was completely redacted.

        As a person who once wore contact lenses, I remember one coming out when I sneezed. GZ did say there was blood in his eyes, so that too questions whether his contact lenses remained in or came out. He made no mention of wearing contacts, whether or not he lost them during the altercation, just like he made no mention for when and how he dropped his key chain and tactical flashlight.

      • thejbmission says:

        Interesting scenarios Professor and William Walton.
        I think both of you are on to something. Placing both TM and GZ on their knees or at least closer to the ground supports FL’s scenario and Wm. Walton’s.
        The visual I’m getting from both of you, if I’m understanding it correctly explains how TM drops in prone position without falling on top of GZ. That was my biggest problem with GZ’s story. Lack of a larger amount of TM’s blood on the front of GZ’s clothing doesn’t support his reenactment.
        And Professor, I wish we knew if one of those pesky sprinkler heads were nearby because that could explain the arc shaped cut on GZ’s head.
        Things that make you go Hmm..

      • Two sides to a story says:

        Do we really take GZ seriously when he said he had blood in his eyes? Puh-leeze. No evidence of that at all from the cell phone photos taken right after the confrontation.

  34. Malisha says:

    I agree with you, Professor, but I believe four things prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ did not fear imminent serious injury or death when he killed:

    1. He knew the police were coming;
    2. He had already (by his own admission) SPOKEN TO bystanders to whom he had said full sentences, such as, “No, don’t call 911, help me with this guy”;
    3. His injuries were superficial; and
    4. That shriek.

    I think he had Trayvon Martin immobilized by two methods: first, his grip on the hoodie/shirt; and second, fear. He was pointing that gun in Trayvon’s face and snarling at the boy.

    • CommonSenseForChange says:

      And he yelled “stop” just before firing. Trayvon Martin was “getting away”.

    • racerrodig says:

      I could not agree more. I think he was doing a GZ version of interrogation, that is violently, stupidly and most important, illegally.

      • Patricia says:

        “I think he was doing a GZ version of interrogation, that is violently, stupidly and most important, illegally.”

        Classic, Racer – CLASSIC!

  35. cielo62 says:

    Following thread…

  36. Two sides to a story says:

    Lucky shot? At close range, missing GZ'[s shot would have been like missing the proverbial broad side of a barn. It’s a shame he pierced the young man’s heart. This case could be more easily solved had TM survived.

    I think you’ve done a stellar job, Professor, with investigating and analyzing the fatal shot. Maybe your article title should reflect this.

    • CommonSenseForChange says:

      Ditto most of that. Professor Leatherman has long ago pointed out that Zimmerman “aimed” by his own admission. This was no accident.

      • racerrodig says:

        In one of Z’s police interviews he stated, and I’ll paraphrase, I had to be careful not to shoot my left hand. Huhhh ? In a fight for his life, the mother of all fights according to his brother, he was aware that he had to be careful to keep from blowing his left hand off ? He can remember that, 25 head bashes, but can’t recall 2 of the 3 street names where he lives.

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