The DNA results do not support Zimmerman’s claim that Martin assaulted him.
Zimmerman claimed that Martin punched him in the nose stunning and knocking him to the ground. Martin mounted him as he lay flat on his back, and started hitting him repeatedly in the face with his fists. Then he grabbed both sides of Zimmerman’s head and began slamming the back of his head into repeatedly into the cement.
When Zimmerman started screaming for help, Martin attempted to smother him by placing his hands over Zimmerman’s mouth and nose.
If this story were true, one would expect to see injuries on Zimmerman’s face and the back of his head, but there are no injuries, with the exception of a scab on the right side of the bridge of his nose and two little cuts or lacerations to the back of his head. These two superficial cuts bled copiously as scalp wounds tend to do.
The blood flow from those wounds is consistent with Zimmerman’s head in an upright position leaning forward and inconsistent with his claim that he was lying on his back.
One also would expect injuries to Martin’s hands, but there is only one small abrasion on the ring finger of his left hand where a ring normally would be worn. (Martin did not wear a ring)
Martin’s only bleeding wound was from the gunshot to his heart.
Now let’s take a look at the DNA evidence.
Left and Right Lower sleeves and Cuffs of Martin’s Shirt and Sweatshirt
No blood detected on any of them.
Martin’s DNA was detected on all of them. There were no DNA results foreign to Martin, with the exception of the left cuff and lower sleeve of the shirt, but the data was insufficient to include anyone due to its limited nature.
Martin’s Fingernail Cuttings
No DNA results foreign to Martin were found.
Note: The absence of Zimmerman’s DNA on the fingernail cuttings and the absence of injuries to Martin’s hands consistent with the beating Zimmerman described, as well as the absence of blood and Zimmerman’s DNA on the lower sleeves and cuffs of Martin’s shirt and sweatshirt leads me to conclude that Zimmerman’s story about Martin almost beating him to death is a lie.
In fact, other than Zimmerman’s story, I do not see any evidence that Martin hit Zimmerman.
He was certainly injured, but there are other possible causes for those injuries.
Martin’s Shirt (ME-8)
Bloodstain A: matches Zimmerman
Bloodstain B: matches Martin
Stain C no blood and no DNA
Bloodstain D: mixed DNA profile likely containing both Martin and Zimmerman
Bloodstain E: matches Martin
Martin’s Hooded Sweatshirt (ME-12)
Blood matches Martin.
Zimmerman’s DNA not present
Conclusion
The only place where Zimmerman’s blood and DNA are present is Martin’s shirt, which he was wearing underneath the hooded sweatshirt.
Bloodstain A is all Zimmerman
Bloodstain D is a mixed DNA sample containing Martin and Zimmerman’s DNA.
Pending review of color photographs of the two bloodstains on Martin’s shirt containing Zimmerman’s blood, I am inclined to believe that they are the result of any of the following:
(1) dripped blood from Zimmerman’s wounds as he leaned forward above Martin’s body either before or after the shot, or
(2) transferred blood from Zimmerman’s hands as he handled Martin’s body.
Frederick Leatherman Law Blog 
I would also like to add, GZ clothes do no not show that he was in a fight for his life. He stated he was under TM , GZ clothes look as though they had just come out of the washer and dryer. It was pouring that night , He would have had grass,and mud stains,from all that scooting and wiggling . If you look at the photo that was taken that night by a neighbor, there is no shirt collar visible,what you see is a bare neck, but at the police dept. when his pictures are being taken you see he is wearing a grey turtleneck. There is no way he could not have gotten blood around the neckline of a turtleneck.
I have a new post up:
What Does Zimmerman’s Blood Tell Us?
Professor, re your response that my reply to Bear re the Kel-Tek recoil sets GZ up for M1 … I don’t issue the charges, the State does.
I do feel that GZ’s action(s), “evinc[ed] a depraved mind indifferent to human life”, which is proved by the care with which GZ “aimed and shot” (his words), and which shows deliberation by GZ, including both the need to avoid injuring huimself and the precision in which he placed the shot, resulting in the trajectory noted by the ME. And that he was cool as a cucumber when EMTs arrived and measured his vitals.
I think he could do this only if he had Trayvon secured and helpless. And that he took his gun out once it was no risk.
Yes, it could well be argued that premeditation took place, but that charge is a higher-pay-grade decision than I can make.
I’m working at fitting the pieces of the puzzle together, and learning from others how to recognze pieces that fit.
I will ask Gorgone re bloodstains A and D and if he replies, will send it on to you ASAP.
Re the long vertical stain on TM’s [under]sweatshirt, what impact would GZ’s immediate bodyweight on TM’s body, post death, have on forcing blood out of the wound? Any impact by LE officers hoping to restore heartbeat, with or without sealing off the wound, which they tried to do? Would blood only pour out as a result of the waning beats of Trayvon’s heart?
So many of the questions in in this case have never had to be asked before. They are terrible questions to have to ask.
The trial is, what, 18 months hence?
I do recognize that GZ”s side has to maintain the fiction that GZ was imprisoned under Trayvon and unable to escape or to defend himself.
Mo’ puzzle pieces coming down the track!
I lean more towards MO, Taffe is not that smart, but then again neither is MO. Need more data to really believe MO involved.
@Patrica & Leatherman:
Off topic: The Water Utility Cover
I think I found one similar to pictures from the RATL
http://www.usabluebook.com/p-272807-d-1000-meter-lid-only-plastic-drop-in-solid.aspx
@Patricia
here goes that damn poop station
trying to figure if any of its componets can match that weird sideways “U” on the back of GZ head.
IIRC during reenactment he said he didn’t know if Tm hit him or the sign…..
http://www.petwasteeliminator.com/superior-pet-waste-eliminator-station/E3
I don’t think that’s it. The one in the complex have a smooth border of 1-1/2 inches. The one that you found does not. The “handle” area is different as well. Close, but no cigar. : )
It could be that Osterman was an accomplice or a co-conspirator, but it could also be Taaffe. The level of “non-participation” by the police that night (and quirky half-assed participation in the days that followed) makes it impossible to figure out what really happened. Since Osterman stayed behind the Zimmily Curtain for so long while Taaffe shot off his mouth to every media outlet that would have him, I rather think that Taaffe was not present that evening but Osterman was, but none of these ideas can give us any real purchase while the three fluskateers remain silent (except to spout off stupidly and obnoxiously from time to time about their fantasies).
One thing we know: the story George told, in any of its iterations or in any combination of its iterations, is not credible.
I don’t believe this started at Taaffe’s unit…
LLMPapa. Interesting. I too have never believed that GZ spotted Trayvon by Taaffe’s house, and am also questioning whether the “Shit he’s running” started at the cut-through. Some have gone over the clubhouse vids and tried to determine where GZ parked, but it is my impression that Trayvon began running somewhere close to the mail shed, and that GZ stopped chasing him on foot at the cut-through. That would also explain why Trayvon told DeeDee he had lost the creepy guy, and was taking his time walking down the dog path when suddenly, Trayvon again saw GZ.
I haven’t seen the drainage ditch, I only know from news reports that say many kids use this shortcut by FT’s all the time.
I use it in my timeline because, it appears that TM, in the steadily increasing rain, would leave rinehart and cut through close to the apartments where there are awnings to shelter under if the rain gets too heavy to proceed. It appears that, if he stays close to the apartments, FT’s cut through is closer to him in that case.
My guess is also that he mentioned “apartments” to DD, even if he didn’t make it clear that he could shelter there if need be. She mixes up what he said about the apartments, with the mailboxes, but she dutifully reports that she heard the word apartments from him. Of course, she can’t know what it means.
In any event, Trayvon is still on schedule to complete a 13 minute walk from the 711 to the mailboxes and arrive some three minutes before Tchoupi’s analysis shows a car or truck coming down RVC west. This looks very much like GZ’s truck, but it doesn’t go out the front gate. It goes, instead over to TTL, then comes back west in front of the clubhouse and turns to make another pass. Only then does it seem that GZ spots TM at the mailboxes and so he turns to face the mailboxes and parks on TTL.
Obvioulsy if this vehicle is GZ, then seeing nothing on his way to go shopping, he has no reason not to go right out the front gate. Only if he has been told that there is someone there, can he know enough to look for someone he can’t easily see.
He then fabricates a story about spotting TM by FT’s so he doesn’t have to say he was notified by anyone.
In my estimation, mere notification is innocent conduct, I can’t see why FT would want to hide his own heroic part and avoid the glory. Osterman, however, would want to hide from any glory, no matter which way things went, because he’s not from RATL. He also would not want to risk his good job, on what could only be petty glory by a “mickey mouse” NW squad.
So that’s my guess at it.
Cool, Lonnie – VERY, VERY COOLl!
Thanks, just following the evidence in a way that makes the most sense to me.
1. There are not apartments in RATL.
2. Why would DD mention “apartments”, if TM had not used the word for some reason? She would have no idea if the “apartments” were in RATL or elsewhere.
3. The apartments offer needed shelter opportunities. Why would TM not consider them? After telling DD that it had started to rain, he’d probably mention something of a plan for a route to take care of that problem.
4. The mention of such a route would not be made perfectly clear, this was mere trivia, so DD would not be clear about it.
5. TM is on a schedule of sorts, he wants to get home for the game, so he nixes sheltering at the apartments, but his route leaves him closer to Taaffe’s cut through and there’s a sheltered walkway running in front of the clubhouse??? If so, then it makes more sense to shoot for the clubhouse, than to come around from anywhere near the front gate.
So the FT cut through makes the most sense in the rain. Since this route keeps him near shelter ops.
I’d also think that what he means by “run from the back” is simply to go behind the houses. Where his most likely route, from the mailboxes would be, south on TTL and use a cut through nearer to the house. Instead he decides that since he’s being followed by a man in a car, evasive action would be to go where a car cannot go.
It’s a longer route home, because it leads north a bit.
GZ runs after him, almost immediately. Means GZ clears the buildings too soon for TM to have gone very far [towards the back gate where GZ suspects TM is headed, and that assumption is partially correct, so it should come as no surprise that action taken on that assumption, also proves to be correct and thus allows GZ to corner/catch TM].
I’d go with GZ going south on RVC east to the back gate, then sticking to the shadows, he’d come around the last block of buildings, hoping the “suspect” would come to him without knowing it. In the meantime, TM, thinking he lost the creep, walks the last few yards home, when GZ comes out of the shadows, only yards south of where TM is trying for his house.
TM would realize there’s no time to get inside, before GZ will catch him if he tries, so he tries to get away by heading back north. TM is still too pooped to run fast, so GZ closes the gap pretty fast. All TM can do is plead “Why are you following me for?”
GZ doesn’t want to answer, but, instead wants to play cop, so he issues a challenge of his own, “What are you doing around here?”
This is completely confusing to TM because who has a right to know what he’s doing? Certainly not a neighbor, because no neighbor has ever issued such a challenge before, and TM has been in the neighborhood on many prior occasions. So he reads this challenge as a “throwaway remark” made by someone ill intended.
My guess is that GZ dropped the little flashlight as he crossed over the south T, to mark where he said he had stopped following, just in case he needed to say he went no further. GZ was simply thinking ahead. If nothing happened he’d simply come back and pick it up. But if something happened, he could then say he stopped there or was stopped there.
Anyway that’s as far as I get so far.
You said,
I’ve asked Patricia this question and now I will ask you.
Have you considered the possibility that GZ identified himself as a cop and his motive for killing TM was to avoid being arrested and charged with impersonating a police officer?
I saw that question and I’m still trying to evaluate it. Off hand?
I think that if GZ identified himself as a police officer, the response should be different. One doesn’t struggle with a police officer. So, a police officer gets to do pretty much what they want with an innocent, non-criminal person. “Hollywood” takes advantage of this fact, to make dramatic killing/murder scenes in gangster pictures.
One doesn’t expect to be killed by a police officer, even though it does happen. I’d think that would have set aside a whole lot of TM’s fear. Just my opinion.
You said,
Not true for anyone with black skin.
“Have you considered the possibility that GZ identified himself as a cop and his motive for killing TM was to avoid being arrested and charged with impersonating a police officer?”
Zimmerman knew the police were on their way. Do you think he would be that stupid to identify himself as a cop?
Sure, if he already intended to kill him.
Probably not, but it does create an atmosphere of helplessness. One would not expect to get help from citizens against a police officer.
@Lonnie Star. The prosecution has GZ’s phone records. They also entered the clubhouse vids into discovery. I’ve believed all along that the prosecution had reason for doing that. As well, they have reason for entering the M&I Bank vid. I believe it is Osterman on that vid at 6:38 p.m. Some disagree.
With those three entries, it is my impression that Osterman spotted Trayvon entering the gated community and called GZ, who then went on a hunt for him.
DeeDee said that she was talking to Trayvon at 6:54 at which time he was in the mail shed. His phone log supports that he received a call at that time. DeeDee also said that during that call, Trayvon said that a creepy guy was following him in a car.
GZ’s NEN call was made at 7:09. That would mean that GZ stalked Trayvon for more than 15 minutes before making that call.
6:29:19 Trayvon is seen outside 711 heading back East
Trayvon needed only ~13:04 to reach the mailboxes from 711.
Or eta of ~6:42:19 @4.4/ft/sec. walking speed.
mailboxes: ~3452 feet from 711 (via apartments route)
Trayvon could have arrived at the mailboxes even earlier than 6:42, with the rain escalating he’d want to move quickly, perhaps adding as much as half a foot/sec. or more to his travel speed.
I’m not sure if that drainage swale has some sort of crossing. Will have to keep looking and reading on that point. LLMPapa is of a mind that you do your own checking and not just take his word.
We debated these cut throughs on Bcclist.com for quite a while before the evidence dumps came. The media reports from the area seemed to confirm that FT’s cut through was the preferred route for most of the kids. I dimly remember that the drainage ditch was mentioned and discarded, because there was some sort of crossing available, but the threads on Bcclist are so long, it will take some time to check. I think I’ll try google maps first.
Will report back.
Lonnie, the following images are what I’m calling a drainage swale, probably graded in with the area’s development to drain surface water to the retention pond in back.
This is the screen cap I included in my vid showing someone walking at what appears to be the bottom of the swale:
This is a larger view from Google with the above image overlayed at the top:
I’m including this image from Bing which shows the retaining wall structures along this area of both developments allowing the lower elevation of the swale. This one also shows a faint outline of a path in the grass where it has indeed been frequently used:
I’m not sure what Tray did or didn’t do, as to choosing between the two possible shortcuts, but my tired old azz is gonna take the straightest, easiest way from A to B, LOL.
I also have walking difficulties which is why I look at the trip for the shortest possible route. It looks to me that TM would have left Rinehart road well before the apartments and crossed that huge empty lot. Then, knowing how suddenly Fla downpours can start, he’d want to keep as close to shelter as possible, even if it meant he’d have to cover a few extra yards.
Like I say the apartments fits this picture nicely, and having DD mention “apartments” seems to me, to be her parroting TM’s words, even if she doesn’t understand the fit. All she knows is that they are somehow connected with shelter from the rain, so she thinks they may be the mailboxes. In fact they are two different places, but along a reasonable route for sheltering. She could not know this, only TM could, so he’d have to have told her these words, no matter how she mixed them.
How TM would handle the swale is anyone’s guess, but as a general rule, it would take some time spent raining to fill them, and it had not been raining hard all day, just off and on, now and then. Also I’d note that, an area that floods quite frequently would probably not have much grass growing in it, eh? So, perhaps that swale drains quite well. Just a thought.
Nice tunes.
Real sweet.
Your theory makes sense, particularly if it’s raining. I’m guessing he’d have to walk through ankle-deep water through that swale.
However, isn’t that a fence blocking access through the second cut-through?
Do you know if the fence was there back in Feb.
Actually on closer observation it looks like posts in the last part of the vid with the 20 mph speed limit.
Maybe he walked on down and entered through the front entrance. Maybe that’s where he was spotted.
What do you think?
Great vid.
So much for the Taafee cut-through idea.
Gracias.
If there’s a rolling fight, either party can end u[p top or bottom anytime. So. You’re n the bottom, the roll starts, instead of rolling on TOP of the other you just grab and roll his top ARM, into a twisted-behind-back torture hold. Both more or less on their sides. Anyone looking from ground level sees only one person, whichever one has his back to the viewer.
Shut the f*ck up, waddaya mean ya don’t know, answer the f*in question.
Oh, still crying? vee haff veys to mek you talk.
Roll him onto his back the twisted arm trapped under, grab the clothing, maybe an elbow on the trapped shoulder, shove THE gun right into his nose. NOW answer the f*in question.
Oh-oh. Out of time. The cops see this, it’s ME they’ll shoot. Hmm.. Okay, rotate gun aim around shirt-holding hand, shoot. He’s only a no-good punk anyway. A lying one at that how dare he tell me he “don’t know”.
Roll him back onto belly to make sure the shot wasn’t a through & through. Big shit if the lousy bullet is in the grass.
Phew.
All clear.
Exploded inside as advertised.
Right. Now walk up and down a bit with hand to head and back to the body (as seen by witness). Quick quick. What else needs setting up to look good. Smearing (or creating and smearing) blood onto face and head at same time (hand to head seen by witness). The key. OK put down the key make it look like this is where it started. Turn on the light make sure they don’t miss it. Sheesh that kickback hurt. Good thing though needed that extra blood, I’ll say he did it. Well he DID, it’s all HIS fault this happened in the first place.
Damn that’s good. keepin it simple
Very good!
Some or most of these questions may never be answered but I give my take on that nights events I feel like Zimmerman is switching places with trayvon in some of the details he gives makes me think that way. George gets out of his car follow Martin he has a tactical flashlight in one hand looking but when trayvon hides behind one of those white dividers he looses him and say so in the 911 call but he don’t give up his search. his flashlight goes out trayvon thinks he’s gone and comes out but zimmerman spots him trayvon ask why you following me zimm replies what you doing around here. trayvon snatch his headphone out of his ear putting them in his pocket preparing for a a fight if need be while turning to leave and telling him something like it’s none of your business this is the shouting the residence are talking about. Zim states he called the police you’re staying right here until they come Martin tell him he’s not staying nowhere zimm grabs Martin martin turns and hit Zimm in the nose and the scuffle begins Zimmerman gets the upper-hand because we heavier and straddle Martin arms pinning him down the front of zimmer boots still was wet with grass on them being that leather takes a while to dry Martin screams for help Zimmerman covers his mouth and nose and tell him to shut the fu.k up he uncovers martin mouth to reach for his gun pointing it at Martin asking him again what he’s doing around there martin answer zimm wants proff so he ask for his address Martin answer i don’t know that’s what we hear in the 911 tape witness has come out saying stop he’s calling the police Martin continue screaming for help because something changes in Zimmerman when he realize the the position he’s put himself in and the screaming becomes primal until zimm silence it zimm gets up frisk trayvon finds nothing and walk away toward the tee where witness say he was walking putting his hands over his face transferring blood over his forehead he see his tactical flash light strikes himself twice in the back of the head hat’s why blood is on this flashlight the witness steps out after he feels its safe talk to zimm and take the pic police arrive put zimm in the back of the car. I can’t say I am correct on all parts but this is my take on it correct me where you see it.
One (among many) hard, cold evidence that will definitely seal Zimmerman’s fate for SECOND DEGREE murder is the absence of Zimmerman’s DNA on Trayvon’s hands and cuffs. As the prof. and others have abundantly made clear, one must reasonably conclude that the said absence means that there was NO fight between the two. One may further reasonably conclude that Trayvon’s hands NEVER touched Zimmerman’s face and head. Zimmerman, as such, could NOT have been defending himself against Trayvon, while killing someone who is not engaging in any life threatening activity is a classic example of a state of mind depicting depravity.
Having said that, I would also opine that that hard, cold evidence raises even more questions than it answered. How is it possible that none of Zimmerman’s DNA was found on Trayvon’s and cuffs?! How was Zimmerman able to kill Trayvon without Trayvon fighting back and getting Zimmerman’s DNA on himself? Could it be that?
a. Trayvon did not fight back (and threw his hands up in surrender) believing that if he (Trayvon) did not physically resist/fight back (with his bare hands), Zimmerman would not shoot him;
b. Zimmerman physically restricted Trayvon in such a way that Trayvon could not fight back and he (Zimmerman) could take a PERFECT STRAIGHT SHOT;
c. Someone else physically restricted Trayvon while Zimmerman took a PERFECT STRAIGHT SHOT;
d. Zimmerman physically restricted Trayvon for someone else who took the PERFECT STRAIGHT SHOT. To what extent is it possible that Zimmerman may be covering for someone else/an accomplice? According to the lab-report, DNA foreign to both Zimmerman and Trayvon was also found on the murder weapon. O’Mara wants the identity of that foreign DNA established. There are conflicting reports with regard to the exact whereabouts of Osterman (and Shellie Zimmerman) on the night of the killing. Witnesses report seeing someone in a white T-shirt during the fatal encounter, etc. Could it be that O’Mara suspects the involvement of a third fellow whom Zimmerman may be covering for? Why is Osterman effectively throwing Zimmerman under the bus? Could it be that Osterman wants to effectively seal Zimmerman’s fate in such a way that he (Zimmerman) would not have the slightest chance of believably implicating someone else?
My mind is racing and searching. Help. Anyone?
My thought on the Mark Osterman and GZ, if and big if Osterman was there with GZ that night at the T, Osterman is an accomplice after the fact or maybe a willing accomplice. If GZ rats on MO, Mo can turn around and tell everything that happened and say look I was just trying to protect a friend, I didn’t think he would go so far as to shoot the kid. Give me immunity and I will tell it all. Gz has to take this one on the chin, no matter what, he said he shot him.
Zimmerman woulda rolled on Osterman already too
lets play the if game : ^ ) If I’m Gz and Mo was with me, but I did the deed, he’s my friend he will help me get out of this, he will advise me on my story etc… He reassures me he knows people in the dept. just keep your head down and do what I say. Stay in my house I will watch your back if you keep me out of this we both will return to our lives we just got to keep to the story. GZ is between a rock and a hard place. If he tells on MO its not a self defense story because not only he was stalking a kid but his friend was helping him do it. And MO will turn on him on a dime if gz goes that route. There are no friends when it comes to a murder rap.
If Osterman was there, he would get felony murder
not if he plays ball with the state.
: ^ )
Depends on the type of DNA found
Is it blood, epthileal or other?
Location?
Omara is simply being Omara.
I dont think there is an accomplice and even with one, Zimmerman still gets murder 2 for involvement.
Osterman may be involved but there’s nothing that ties him at the scene
From the choices you offer, I select “B” – GZ restricted Trayvon’s hands, which would be possible if GZ were on top of Trayvon when the shot was fired and GZ knees restraining Trayvon’s arms to the ground.
O’mara is requesting further testing because he intends to bolster an argument attacking the evidence, and the forensic evidence in particular….he is going to argue that the evidence was contaminated, the foresinc testing was shoddy, etc. It’s his only way of defending GZ at this point.
Omara cant state that crap with no evidence. And with so much contradiction to his client from all evidence, th judge and jury is likely to dismiss Omara.
Can he contaminate evidence himself?
@Jun and Fed-Up: You apparently are misunderstanding what I am trying to say. O’Mara is asking for further testing in hopes of finding that LE’s or someone in the investigation or lab has contaminated the holster – to bolster his eventual argument that the evidence has been contaminated or that shoddy forensic testing was done. He will do this with each piece of evidence with hopes of excluding that evidence or putting a question in the jury’s minds. Take for instance, the OJ Simpson case – I don’t know if you watched it, but the defense argued contamination as one of their defense theories – many defense attorneys do this; In the Casey Anthony case, one of the lab techs DNA showed up on the tape – the defense argued contamination. O’Mara will try to do the same if he can find something to point to is what I am saying.
Defense attorney’s don’ t do this “shooting in the dark”. They do this when they know that there’s something to be found, otherwise they leave it alone.
One sure way to lose a case is to chase wild geese in front of the jury and come up empty handed.
If MOM is foolish enough to go ahead “trying this”, then “trying that”, no matter how far ahead he gets, no matter how many points he scores, all he will need is a failure or two and he’s lost.
He’s got to know that there’s something wrong before he even thinks of heading in that direction, or he just doesn’t go there at all.
A jury trial isn’t a laboratory where you can experiment, clean up the mess and try again.
Yes, you never ever under any circumstances ever ever ever ask a question that you do not know the answer to.
Except when you do
And everybody does it at least once
And wonders why oh why did I do that?
BTW, ending a sentence with a preposition isn’t something up with which I will not put.
To Lonnie and The Professor –
Can MO’M fish now, in lieu of fishing later?
“Yes, you never ever under any circumstances ever ever ever ask a question that you do not know the answer to.
…
BTW, ending a sentence with a preposition isn’t something up with which I will not put.” — Frederick Leatherman
Reminds me of an old joke that I’ll update apropos this case . . .
Mark O’Mara is questioning George Zimmerman on the stand:
MOM: Mr. Zimmerman, you say you saw Mr. Martin running. Where did you think he was running to?
GZ: (smirking) You should never end a sentence with a preposition!
MOM: Alright . . . Where did you think he was running to A$$HOLE?
LOL! Just the guffaw I needed! Thanks!
Yes, I don’t like doing that either. But I do it when it does something utilitarian like, either shortening the missive or emphasizing the point. At which point bad grammar “memorializes”. Sort of like “Flat Fix” signs. It’s a literary device.
“Dark and stormy night” anyone?
Agree, Cherokee, agree.
I dont think he can argue that
I do know defense lawyers argue that but Omara cant argue that without evidence
As for Trayvon’s hands, fingernails, lower sleeve bottoms…. It would be impossible to contaminate it where there is only Trayvon’s blood only and not Zimmerman’s
It also doesnt change the bulletholes and the shirt to the wound
Corey’s evidence is likely air tight and she and her team arent going to risk letting other ppl she put away over Zimmerman…however I can see Omara or his team trying to send a mole to contaminate evidence
adding the other evidence that are witnesses and such, ballistics, physics, math, etc…Omara is boxed in the corner as all the evidence corroborates and supports each other
@LonnieStar – O’Mara knows the tests results on the holster came back with multiple DNA. I was not insinuating that the defense would do this actually to every item of evidence “willy nilly” – but where the evidence comes back showing the presence of multiple DNA, as in the holster, O’Mara will seek to have it retested for the purpose of finding out if the item in evidence has been contaminated. His goal will be to exclude as much evidence as possible or at the very least put the question of whether shoddy testing or collection was done.
Wow! You can almost anything on YouTube!
Very true. The trajectory of the bullet also traveled completely straight from front to back at an intermediate range. If Zimmerman claims he shot Trayvon while underneath, then it would have been a close range shot with an upward angular trajectory. Llmpapa has a great YouTube video that shows in reenacted form, if both were standing, the measurement of the bullet entry, 17.5 inches from the top of Trayvons head is nearly exactly the height from the floor of someone exactly Zimmermans height, discharging their weapon with ones arm fully extended. All of the discovery documents do not support Zimmermans claim of self defense nor the account he gave that night. Which makes me believe even more that this was indeed premeditated murder. There is one camera that captures street activity that they claimed was down, but I found it perplexing in Zimmermans jail house call, that he asks Sheila if Kent handled something for him. Kent is also the first name of the person who deals with the security videos in that complex. There is much more, more involved, but I am glad that people are atleast making a clear undisputed argument that proves Trayvons innocence/Zimmermans guilt with the information that has been released.
@Jennifer
I have not been active in listening to the jail house calls maybe a few, his voice and shellie’s grates on my ears, but anyway which call are you referring to? I would like to listen to that call. Thanks in advance.
: ^ )
@Brown
A group of us tweeted the jailhouse calls. I storified our tweets…you can go here for the first series…
http://storify.com/princss6/george-zimmerman-jailhouse-calls-in-spanish-and-en
And can find the other storifies listed here at the bottom of the page –
http://storify.com/princss6 – I believe there are about 7 stories just referring to jailhouse calls.
Thank you so much Princss6. I will review asap.
Thanks
Brown
Hi Brown – I sent you two links with summaries of the JHC’s via twitter. Side chatter included but the heart of the calls are summarized.
thank you Princess, just woke up, trying to go through emails, was up most night babysitting my smoked brisket…..
Professor, I would respectfully point out Stain A on ME-8 is also in the general area of where the sweatshirt could have been grasped with his left hand, “transferring blood from Zimmerman’s hand”, as he pulled downward and to the left, resulting in alignment of the bullet hole in the shirt and body.
Right on it, right, LLMPapa.
BTW, your videos ROCK; you’re a genius!
Are you a videographer? Cinematographer? I’m so ignorant I don’t even know the difference! HELP I GOT LOST IN THE LAST CENTURY AND NEVER GOT FOUND…
I don’t know why the Examiner says George’s case is “slowly crumbling.” It appears to me that it was smashed to smithereens by 2/29/2012 and the rest of the time, the little bits and pieces were blowing away in the wind. Perhaps they meant to say, “pulverized beyond recognition even with an electron microscope.”
I agree. The article did not mention much except the newly released DNA findings. They surely were not being elaborate on how his story is crumbling.
I wonder how the smirking GZ is feeling now that his lies are being exposed and his case is crumbling not so slowly.
Did anyone else hear that Zimmerman’s racist violent friend Frank Taafe was recently arrested? I never heard about this.
It seems that Frank Taafe is another criminal lowlife just like Zimmerman. Here is a list of his offenses:
*Beating his wife (Zimmerman anyone?)
*Failure to pay child support
*1st degree trespassing
*2nd degree theft
Looks like a real upstanding guy…not.
I forgot to mention his latest legal endeavor, driving under the influence.
He is a stalker
but he is a loudmouth and stated nationally things Z admitted to him
even he says Z followed and he admits confrontation
perhaps Taffe has a conscience
With all due respect, I do not think Dennis’ statement is in any way being out of line for this blog or any blog. I had no idea Taafe was a wife beater, child support dodger,ect. Racist, yes, I can determine that in my own mind. This goes towards a witnesses credibility right? IMO
In my opinion a wife beater and child support dodger goes way down on the list as low life. Do you have a site that says this is Taffee’s record, Dennis?
@hinkster4ever
I will try and dig up the website that contains Taafe’s criminal record for you.
@hinkster4ever
Here is the news article that mentions his domestic violence. They also mention Zimmerman’s instance where he beat his woman as well. Both of these men are scum in my book and don’t deserve to breathe. The laws in this country are way too liberal when it comes to domestic violence and drunk driving.
@ Dennis,
I would be the last person to defend Taafe’s activities. But, with all due respect, do you think that your remark regarding Taafe is disparaging? Would you, if the answer is yes, agree that the said remark might, at least, be way out of order and irrelevant to to answering the cogent questions at hand? I just feel uncomfortable with parts of your comment, the presentation and the tone thereof. My objection is not about Taafe, but rather the level/quality of the discussions we have on this blog. I hope you understand.
I was just pointing out that Taafe is a criminal, woman beater, and drunk driver. I do not respect him as a human being and have no regret for any of my remarks about him. In fact, I would have been laughing my ass off if he drove his drunk ass into a tree. Judging by his past, he is another likely candidate for murder in the future.
Here is a statement from Taafe after he claims that the Martin shooting had nothing to do with race:
“…this is a perfect storm. Once again there are documented crimes in our neighborhood that have been perpetrated by one group of young black males.”
He is basically admitting that Zimmerman’s actions were prompted by the previous burglaries that were done by “black males”. Clearly a case of racial profiling. Taafe has no problem with racial profiling, which in fact makes him a racist.
Did the prosecution also enter this statement by Taafe into evidence:
“I think he had fed-up issues. He was mad as hell and wasn’t going to take it anymore.”
He basically admitted that he thinks or knows that Zimmerman went on a vigilante mission.
Dennis, I think what I am say is that resentment, anger and venom emanate from your comment in question. Such diminishes- and distracts from the message you want to convey. I honestly believe that you are sophisticated enough to effectively make your point while letting certain types emotions stay well below the radar. I do not disagree with the substance of the comment in question (and Taafe has said more outrageous thing you are yet to discover). But the discussions we have here with each other transcends- and should transcend in all aspects the sort they have at for example the conservative doghouse (aka Xena). That’s part of the reasons I keep on visiting this site. The Trayvon Martin case is indeed heart-wrenching. I do however think it can be discussed in a “clean” way, without getting vulgar, nasty, etc. That’s what I was objecting to. Reasonable people can disagree on that. But that’s my opinion.
I meant to say: “I think what I am SAYING is …..”
@SearchingMind
I respect your opinion, but I am merely exercising my 1st amendment right to free speech. I’m not sure what part of my comments you think were out of line. I spoke the truth and gave a personal opinion about Taafe, without using tons of profanity too. Are you upset because I am judging Taafe based upon his previous criminal history?
Recently when? For what? Are you talking about the DUI a couple months ago? Old news. Has he been arrested again since? I haven’t heard.
Frank Taaffe is being made to suffer by forces beyond his control.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-17/news/os-two-killed-jeep-crash-volusia-20120817_1_volusia-county-crash-driver-and-passenger-florida-highway-patrol
I read elsewhere that another son of his died a couple of years ago.
@ BettyKath, Gbrbsb, Whonooz, Xena, Patricia
I think we may be interpreting the lab-report wrongly and may therefore need an expert to answer the question posed by Bettykath.
Indeed, as Xena remarked, “on page 106 of the 183 document dump is the following:
Exhibit ME-2 Fingernail scrapings represented as being from Trayvon Benjamin Martin
Exhibit ME-2A gave chemical indications for the presence of blood.
Exhibit ME-2A Right hand
No DNA results foreign to Trayvon Benjaimin Martin (ME-3) were found on Exhibit ME-2A.”.
But that same document also make mention of ‘Exibit ME-2B’, etc.
The question is: what does all that mean? Could it mean the following: ME-2 = fingernail scrapings; ME-2A = right hand fingernail scraping; ME-2B = left hand fingernail scraping? Is there a separate code for the (right/left) palm? Etc.
What is the STANDARD procedure in murder/rape cases? Are the scrapings from the palms and fingernails (of the diseased/raped) classified separately AND tested separately OR are they classified as ONE single piece of evidence and tested as such?
I have had the opportunity to assist in a case where the victim was raped and murdered. Fingernail-scraping from the victim was key in identifying the rapist/murderer. However, I do not recall the lab-report separately classifying (the results of the lab-tests of) the scrapings from the nails and the palms. Well, as the saying goes: they don’t teach you everything at the school of law/university. Since my knowledge law (regarding murder trials) at this moment is 95% theory and 5% practical, I would appreciate very much the expert-opinion of our vastly experienced Professor and others (from the medical world) for the sake of clarity on this subject.
Correction: I meant: (…) since my knowledge OF THE law (…).
I just thought I would share a recent article from Examiner in light of the recent DNA results made public…
http://www.examiner.com/article/zimmerman-s-story-slowly-crumbling
Examiner is a hogwash snake oil rhetoric
Seems to me Zimmermans Story Slowly Crumbling is saying what we are saying….the evidence is proving that Zimmerman’s many versions of the story is failing.
Zimmerman going down
We might be able to put the “no blood” debate to rest.
On page 106 of the 183 document dump is the following:
Exhibit ME-2 Fingernail scrapings represented as being from Trayvon Benjamin Martin
Exhibit ME-2A gave chemical indications for the presence of blood.
Exhibit ME-2A Right hand
No DNA results foreign to Trayvon Benjaimin Martin (ME-3) were found on Exhibit ME-2A.
———————————————————————-
Thus, the presence of blood was found, but the DNA results determined it was Trayvon’s blood.
THANK YOU, XENA!
(Lots of thanks going out tonight, Class VERY cooperative!)
I see you guys are getting ready to go to bed. We, on the other hand, are already eating breakfast over here. BTW Patricia, you still owe me a reply.
I have a request out to Gorgone. He MAY answer; usually I get cooperation but not always. We’ll see,
If Trayvon’s body was found face down on the ground with his hands under him, it’s easy to understand how he had his own blood on his hands.
George has Trayvon Martin’s blood on his hands in the symbolic way,
How did you come to the conclusion that Trayvon has his own blood on his hands, Malisha?
SEarching Mond, it was per Anthony Gorgone,
Crime Laboratory Analyst
Biology Section
FDLE – Orlando Regional Operations Center
5/9/12 Supplemental Lab Report to SPN
Glad you’re back and working hard with us!
Malisha –
Only Trayvon’s blood was on one hand, under the fingernail, No GZ blood on either hand or under the nails. That’s the report so far.
Haha, Patricia, I have always been here. I only did not have much to add to the superb analysis/contributions made by all the participants on this site. That explains my apparent absence. And I remember that you still owe me an answer.
Thought you were off skiing in Portillo.
Yes, you deserve an answer. You are my favorite Searcher and I was charmed by your question. Could not take it seriously, but did give a thought to having Cielo’s cat serve as ring-bearer.
Strikes me you are doing wonderfully well in your new legal career. May not be criminal law, which is exciting – but every aspect of the legal profession hones your writing and logic skills.
Keep joining us here. We need you.
Will get back to you with Gordone’s reply as soon as I hear.
Meow! Na’mer would be honored to be ring bearer. 🙂
Na’mer would be honored to be ring bearer. 🙂
Would steal the show,
especially with the ring tied to Na’mer’s collar.
Extra mouse filet reserved for Na’mer at the reception.
Beauregard will serve as bouncer.
(All 22 lbs of mean.)
You know how rowdy these events can get!
PS I’ll bring the hybrid catnip/ weed. 😉
That’s exactly why we all can see that the hand over mouth and nose never happened. I do believe that at some point it was the other way around and what the heck was Zimmerman doing with is hands while all of this was going on?
George’s DNA on stain I shows his AND another male but NOT Trayvon’s. we already knew about stain Z showing non-human ( probably shot that dog)
Someone here said Shelly had said “George shot another person”. If anyone can post that quote it would be great.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/george-zimmermans-dna-problem/2012/09/30/40605a58-0a46-11e2-a10c-fa5a255a9258_blog.html
2dogsonly: I believe what you are looking for was on Dr. Phil when Osterman’s wife said, “Shelly called them and told them that George shot someone else.”
It would of come out if GZ had shot someone before and walked away from it unscathed because it was a thug and no one said a word about it. right? He almost got away with it this time if it wasn’t for a national outcry. He was to calm about the whole event, even in asking Det. Singleton if she has ever had to shoot someone. She answered no, and without remorse he said, good for you. It was like asking if she liked mushrooms on her hamburger. There was no sense of trauma or horror that he just ended the life of another person! This is not what I would consider normal behavior especially if it was self-defense.
He never expected to be charged and yet it was complete genius to set a website for money. Why would he have anything to worry about if it were self-defense?
@ Xena
Your interpretation is sound. Yet, BettyKath could reasonably argue that Trayvon’s blood could have gotten to his fingernails (the day) before and/or after he was shot. The lab-report does not say anything about (Trayvon’s) blood being found on Trayvon’s hands/palms and whether or not that blood, if any, is foreign or not to him (Trayvon). I think the doubt in the minds of BettyKath and Gbrbsb can only be completely taken away by answering the question I raised below.
DNA And GSR Update On George Zimmerman Case
Frederick Leatherman says:
May 21, 2012 at 6:11 pm
I forgot to add the DNA analysis about Trayvon Martin’s fingernail scrapings.
Right hand (ME-2A): tested positive for blood containing Trayvon Martin’s DNA.
Left hand (ME-2B): no result.
By the way, the numbering system, which in this instance is ME-2 A&B, means the medical examiner’s office obtained the fingernail clippings in two envelopes labeled A & B at the autopsy and submitted them into evidence in one larger envelope as Exhibit ME-2.
Other exhibits are typically numbered with the officer’s initials who placed them into evidence.
reposted from archives
@Brown,
I appreciate your input very much. However, I still think that the doubt in the minds of BettyKath and Gbrbsb has not been taken away. How can we rule out that the ME did not neglect to test Trayvon’s hands/palms for the presence of DNA (foreign or not). Pls. see my post below and see if you can help BettyKath and Gbrbsb with their doubts.
Thanks for your post. I was able to find out information in regards to fingernail clippings. I will try and find more in regards to dna testing on palms.
@Brown. Bless your heart. You are such a dear to research for resources. My heart, mind, and fingers, truly appreciate you.
: ^ )
Awesome analysis of the DNA evidence. If I was a juror I would doubt Zimmerman’s story just by the lack of blood and DNA of Zimmerman on Martin’s hands or shirt. With all of the evidence stacked against him, I think he is damned.
I think it would be obvious for Zimmerman to get blood on Martin’s hands or clothes, or to get his DNA on Martin’s hands from multiple punches, mouth covering, and head grabbing. I think you would have to be an absolute moron to not understand what this evidence implies.
following thread
bettykath, so far it does not appear that Trayvon’s hands were swabbed, but with the level of contact Trayvon alledgedly had with GZ’s head and face, one would reasonably expect to find George’s DNA under or on Trayvon’s fingernails. Especially, if he grabbed GZ’s head to pound it on the pavement or pinched GZ’s nose and covered his mouth as GZ claimed. The skin on the head and face is more oily than other parts of the body (could readily be deposited under the nails) and the body sheds tremendous amounts of skin cells on a daily basis (again, could be readily deposited under the nails). Additionally, GZ claims his nose was bleeding. So, Trayvon’s fingernails would be the logical place to look for evidence that Traycvon had prolonged contact with GZ’s face and head. Especially given the fact that Trayvon’s hands were exposed to the rain soaked grass (possibly under his body) which might have washed/wiped away evidence deposited directly on his hands.
Obviously, once GZ claimed Trayvon had his hands over his nose and mouth, the SPD SHOULD have swabbed his palms and the palm-side of his finders for saliva. Only doing the nails is sloppy and incomplete. You don’t want to leave the prosecutor trying to explain to the jury “Well, any DNA WOULD have worked it’s way under the nails!” while the defense council gives a quit-pulling-their-legs smirk. You want to say, “We tested Trayvon’s hands thoroughly, and there’s no sign of Mr. Zimmerman’s DNA anywhere on them, so, no Trayvon did not try to smother him or cover his nose and mouth. Period.”
Why do i think they would have been more thorough if the deceased hadn’t been a black teen, if the shooter hadn’t been ‘Neighborhood Watch’, if his self-defense claim hadn’t invoked that damn SYG leading to good ‘ol boy Norm’s “no case here, let’s move on” attitude, etc. etc.
Because you know.
Whonoze, I didn’t say the collection of evidence was complete or thorough. I also never implied that the investigation would have been more thorough if the deceased hadn’t been a black kid. I am disgusted that it appears those tests weren’t conducted, but that does not change the fact that there was no trace of GZ under Trayvon’s nails, and at this point, that is all the prosecution has to offer as far as Trayvon’s hands are concerned.
On another thread there was an in depth discussion of DNA and where such DNA could be found for the purposes of identification. Surface skin is a poor choice for DNA since it breaks down so fast. The cells are already dead. DNA protected under fingernails will yield typable DNA cells. There is no reason to swab the outside of the hands or palms; no usable DNA would be found there.
Thank you whonose. I agree. Just nails was sloppy work.
@bettykath says:
September 22, 2012 at 10:58 pm
Thank you whonose. I agree. Just nails was sloppy work.
I disagree. They routinely do fingernails because that is where they can find the most as well as test for defenisve evidence. I’m not saying they don’t swab hands (I suppose they could and perhaps do), just that they routinely do fingernails.
Click to access FDLE-Reports_R.pdf
here is #7 discovery dump
has alot of dna testing results…
Yes, this is true.
I may be off base here, but wasn’t the collection of evidence done prior to Zimmerman’s statements? I agree it was sloppy and left a hole. But I think Vicky effectively argues how this deficiency can be overcome by the prosecution.
They can always exhume the body but the lack of DNA on the fingernail scrapings and sleeves is from Z exonerates TM from the “alleged death beating” besides the other evidence. To smother someone, the fingernails would have been touching Z face. Besides, it said no foreign dna on right or left hand of TM. I believe it was swabbed.
Perry Mason: When the deceased was covering my client’s mouth and nose with his hand, is it possible my client’s saliva was deposited on the deceased’s palms, but did not get under his fingernails.
ME: It’s not very likely.
Perry Mason: I didn’t ask if it was likely. i asked if it was possible.
ME: Yes, I guess it’s possible.
Perry Mason: And isn’t it possible that if some of the defendant’s saliva had been under the deceased’s nails, it would have soaked away while the deceased lay in the wet grass in the rain? His hands were down on wet ground, weren’t they?
ME: Yes, they were on the ground… Again, I’d say it’s unlikely the evidence would have washed away, but I suppose it’s possible.
Perry Mason: So you can’t say for sure the deceased never had his hand over the defendant’s mouth or nose, can you!
ME: The probability is…
Perry Mason: Can you be SURE, Doctor?!
(pause)
ME: No.
Perry Mason: No further questions.
Judge: Are you all right Mr. Burger. You look a little green.
Burger: It’s nothing your honor, I shouldn’t have had the hash browns at breakfast.
Judge: Watch out for those hot potatoes councilor. Call your next witness…
LOL. You beat me to it! I was ready to do a defense cross.
Whonoze, One piece of evidence is available to support the assertion that Trayvon did not have his hands all over GZ’s face. The photo of GZ taken within minutes of the shooting. In that photo, there is no indication that someone’s hands made contact with and smeared blood anywhere around GZ’s “bleeding nose”, there is no noticable swelling of the lips. That photo along with the absence of any DNA/blood anywhere on GZ’s hands (nails included) is circumstantial evidence that Trayvon did not attempt to suffocate GZ (I would assume photos were taken of his hands at autopsy).
I don’t think the prosecution will use any of GZ’s lies to friends, media and family, against him until and unless the defense team presents their case. If I am not mistaken, GZ didn’t tell LE this version of events, so I doubt the prosecution will bring it up.
I think the multiple punches and head banging scenario is much easier to disprove, since a few abrasions to the nose and back of the head does not support the type of beating GZ claimed to have experienced.
Vicky and Sir WhoNoze –
ME specified they photographed TM body but would not release photos (limitation apears to be in Sunshine Law).
Ample discussion today re no swabbing of TM’s hands. But if blood were to be on hands, hard to see why zero GZ blood all the way up to the elbow on both shirts, both arms of the shirts.
GZ blood found to be on Skittles, likely from GZ hands during his weapons frisk of TM after the shooting.
@Vicky
I also do not believe any reputable medical examiner going on the stand could testify that Zimmerman did in fact experience the beating that he claims to have had done to him, without leaving the damage that one would expect from that.
To be sure it’s “negative evidence”, which can be extremely persuasive. Imagine someone points to a plate glass wall, and tells you that, only moments before, a 50 ton cement truck, moving at 50 some mph, just crashed through it. What are you likely to believe about such a story: “Beyond a reasonable doubt”?
Now, a person tells you they were “sucker punched” at location ‘A’, and they fell to the ground there. They say that they were immediately mounted by their assailant who straddled him, then pummeled his head with flying fists, then grabbed their head and bashed it onto the concrete. They claim that they shimmied away from the concrete and found the assailant trying to smother him.
Then his assailant began to reach for a gun, located on the right side waistband, which would be below and behind that assailant, such that the assailant would not have been able to see it. But the “victim” can’t remember which hand the assailant used? (Your left, his right, unless you remember some dramatic contortions, it shouldn’t take 24 hours to figure it out).
Now the “victim’s” supposedly broken nose has been pummeled and beaten then crushed by the assailant, who is now reaching for your gun. You pull it and shoot him… Fine! Now all you have to do is explain why the body is 40 feet away.
So, what is one to believe? The lack of good evidence that the “victims” story is true, means that the truth is not being told by someone. One person is dead and not talking, while the other person is alive and trying to stay out of jail.
1. So, who is probably lying beyond a reasonable doubt?
2. What are they most likely lying about?
3. What specific lie must they tell, to stay out of prison?
and finally:
4. Is it reasonable to believe they don’t want to stay out of prision for life?
Lonnie, I loved this. Thanks!
Ah yes, and so it is we see that, the absence of evidence is sometimes indeed, evidence of absence, if not proof positive as well.
This happens when the evidence that is absent is evidence required. Donald Rumsfeld had it all wrong, too bad most people couldn’t figure it out. ( I was harassed on usenet when I said in November of 2001 that there were no wmd’s, despite what the CIA, The President, Vice President, Secretary of State and former Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, as well as other highly placed government officials said), turns out, lowly ol’ me was right, and high falutin’ “they” was wrong. Egad!
Well demonstrated Whonoze. And here “reasonable doubt” enters on stage… at very least in respect of refuting GZ´s claim that Trayvon had his hands over his mouth trying to smother and gag GZ with his hands. How simple had SPD tested Trayvon´s hands thoroughly!
Saliva has dna lmao
Why do u think cops always take suspects cigarette butts?
I dont think any reputable scientist, doctor, pathologist would answer that way
And also the prosecution can retort back of why Zimmerman’s bleeding didnt wash away
Judge: Redirect Mr. Burger?
Burger: Yes, your Honor.
Burger to ME: Was there testable material present on the fingernail clippings taken from Trayvon Martin?
ME: Yes.
Burger: Were there presumptive tests for blood performed on Trayvon Martin’s hands?
ME: Yes.
Burger: Did either of the victim’s hands test positive for the presence of blood?
ME: Yes, his right hand.
Burger: To whom did that blood belong?
ME: Trayvon Martin
Burger: Did the test performed on the victim’s fingernail clippings yield any material for DNA testing?
ME: Yes.
Burger: Was there any DNA found on that material?
ME: Yes.
Burger: Was there more than one contributor to the DNA found on those clippings?
ME: No.
Burger: To whom did that DNA belong?
ME: Trayvon Martin
Burger: Is it likely that Trayvon Martin’s blood would be present on his hand, but only blood from a second contributor would be soaked away by wet grass?
ME: No.
Burger: Is it likely that DNA evidence would remain on Trayvon Martin’s hand, but soaked from beneath his fingernails?
ME: No.
Burger: Is it likely that DNA would be present on the victim’s fingernail clippings, but only the DNA from a second contributor would be soaked away from the material under his fingernails by wet grass?
ME: No.
Burger: No further questions.
What’s that song:
Mud on your face,
Big disgrace,
Slinging your blood all over the place.
My version 🙂
Turning Trayvon over in the grass would not clean all the blood away if 45% of Gz’s face was covered with blood, and Trayvon tried to smother him, hit him in face,ect……IMO experts will testify to this….
As someone pointed out they get DNA from cigarettes laying on the ground after rains. Bodies found after weeks of being in the weather still have DNA….not enough with the other evidence presented to be a REASONABLE doubt.
Queen we will rock you!
Vicky, “Burger: Were there presumptive tests for blood performed on Trayvon Martin’s hands?
ME: Yes.”
Why do you say this? I see nothing in the evidence to support this statement. If it were done, I would expect to see it in the ME report. It isn’t there.
Vicky, ” That photo along with the absence of any DNA/blood anywhere on GZ’s hands (nails included) is circumstantial evidence that Trayvon did not attempt to suffocate GZ (I would assume photos were taken of his hands at autopsy).
I don’t think the prosecution will use any of GZ’s lies to friends, media and family, against him until and unless the defense team presents their case. If I am not mistaken, GZ didn’t tell LE this version of events, so I doubt the prosecution will bring it up.”
If you are referring to the attempt to suffocate GZ as the version GZ didn’t relate to the cops, please look at his version as told to at the VCT and I think he also says it in the walk-thru.
If this isn’t what you’re referring to, what version do you mean?
@Lonnie Star –
“To be sure it’s “negative evidence”, which can be extremely persuasive.”
Exactly! We don’t have evidence that Trayvon Martin had the treeper’s invented “lean” in his veins either, but there’s not even a hint of that possibility until after the fact. Standard tests/best practice doesn’t include “lean” testing is the point. So if it’s “standard practice” to test only the nail scrapings, we’ve gotta work with what we’ve got. If there were more to work with, all the merrier — all the better, but we don’t have it.
Negative evidence means a test for something positive couldn’t be achieved. Zimmerman’s DNA wasn’t found under Trayvon Martin’s nails. It wasn’t there!
You can’t grab and smash a head without gripping it requiring fingernail exposure. You can’t smother an already bloodied nose without getting blood on your hands ***and then touching your bloodshot wound to the chest*** to achieve a test positive for your own blood and a test negative for the blood of the zimmerman since supposedly, zimmerman’s blood/dna would be encapsulated by Trayvon Martin’s own blood/dna — unless someone thinks Trayvon Martin scraped out zimmerman’s blood/dna prior to clutching his gunshot wound.
Makes no sense to reasonable people. Negative evidence of Zimmerman’s DNA is proof!
Gripping and releasing a big sweaty/bloody wet ball, is going to result in the fingernails scraping over it. They test fingernails because, it’s not only the best place to preserve dna, but because it’s the most likely part of the hand, that will collect dna from whatever the hand touches. That is, unless one is taking care to avoid scratching anything. But, then, in that case, the fight can’t be very “life and death” can it?
Vickie and Whonoze are way ahead of me in this class! Danged bet they are the teacher’s pets…..
WTG you two….great posts and analysis.
Bettykath, a presumptive test was performed on Trayvon’s hands. I read that in one of the documents linked above. I am assuming that the presumptive test was performed because what appeared to be blood was observed on at least one of his hands. The autopsy photos will answer that question. Why a presumptive test for blood if none was seen? Since the DNA found under his nails belonged only to Trayvon, and without any of the experts being deposed or submitting written reports at this time, I can’t say for certain I am correct.
I was referring to the interviews with GZ immediately following the incident when I wrote GZ did not include the suffocation scenario in his statement. Additionally, while talking to EMT’s he only claimed his head had been struck on the concrete. The suffocation was not included in his story until later.
The prosecution is under no obligation to introduce his video reenactment unless it is needed to demonstrate inconsistent statements made by Zimmerman. I could be wrong, but I would think the prosecution would focus on the validity of statements made by GZ immediately following the shooting as opposed to those made once he had the opportunity to think through problems that might exist with what he told police at that time.
If the suffocation scenario is introduced, the prosecution will present the circumstantial evidence portion of the case regarding the absence or presence of DNA via their expert witnesses. I’m certain the defense will provide their expert witnesses as well. It will be left to the jury use their common sense to determine whether or not they believe GZ’s DNA should have been present. Since none of us knows exactly what will be said by either side, I have drawn my own conclusions (right or wrong). I am of the opinion that GZ’s DNA should have shown up somewhere on Trayvon’s hands or shirt cuffs if he had he level of contact with Zimmerman’s head/face that he claims.
I must correct myself, GZ does in fact claim Trayvon tried to suffocate him in his written statement On Feb. 26. So, the absence or presence of DNA on Trayvon’s hands will most likely be brought up by the prosecution.
It also appears the the observation of possible blood evidence came from the wood stitch that was used to take scrapings from beneath Trayvon’s nails and not fro Swabs taken from his hand/fingers. Cite:FDLE Evidence Screening Form
I still stand by my assertion that if Trayvon’s blood and DNA were found, any other source of DNA should have been found as well.
You are right.
There was no DNA foreign to TM.
That means GZ’s DNA was not present.
Zimmernut was not screaming for help those were from a teenage boy.
There are I believe two or more witnesses that will most likely testify that that sounded like a teenage boy as opposed to a much older man. The jury will also listen to the chilling screams for themselves and will likely conclude the same thing. They will have to make a choice based on their own reasoning. If they decide it is Trayvon, which I believe they will, then Zimmerman is done…stick a fork in him.
George said that there was blood all over his face, and “blood in my eyes and I couldn’t see” and the EMT’s assistant went so far as to testify that George’s face was something like half covered with blood. Gave a percentage! Trayvon could not have tried to smother his screams for HELP with his hands without getting a drop of blood or spittle on them! Were we all supposed to be born yesterday or is this some snake oil we’re not buying?
Exactly the same thing I was thinking. Maybe GZ had delayed bleeding LOL. Yes, the EMT testified it to be 45% covered in blood.
Know what is interesting? John took a pic of GZ’s head with his Iphone before the police arrived, but not GZ’s face.
Also, Xena, was the testimony of the HOA Board Member who said she didn’t want to go out and see poor George because the detective (Serino) tolder how mashed up GZ’s face was and I think she said he showed her a photo. (Tim Smith used his cell phone, I believe.).
I don’t recall the exact words because I was so disgusted. Wouldn’t identify her own NW Coordinator? Face “mashed up” when we saw Diva George within the hour at SPD looking positively debonair?
Fissssshyyyyy …..
The narrative for the EMT report in the 2nd document dump says, “All injuries have minor bleeding.”
Minor bleeding? Well, he got some splainin’ to do because at the second Bond Hearing he, if the same one (forgot his name) said 45% which doesn’t equate to minor bleeding to me. How the heck is his face even covered like that even if he had a bloody nose? Hmmm…
I used the link that Brown provided up thread and scrolled all the way to the bottom. (Actually, I’m looking for the photo of GZ’s key chain after it was entered into evidence in the plastic bag.)
The EMT’s report is the last 2 pgs. Yep. It says “minor bleeding.” I’m going now to listen to Michael Brandy’s taped statement to see what he says.
Click to access Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf
heres the pic of key flashlight
Blood smeared after John’s photo but before arrival of EMS? Or injury occurred very shortly before the shooting and continued to bleed after photo?
@Fed,
But then, why none of TM’s sleeves or on TM? Also, GZ stated that he had blood in his eyes when describing TM on him pounding his head or whatever?
In his eyes? Hogwash, there’s a cellphone pic of his face showing his nose bleeding, eyes clear.
I wonder if TM’s upper sleeves or elsewhere on the hoody have GZ’s DNA. If the hoody grabbing were true, GZ’d have DNA’d all over it.
So far, Fed-up, we see FDLE requested testing for blood and fibers. Results of blood tests released. No report yet on fibers. No report on further testing for DNA on babric – but they have everything, so no reason they can’t test clothing and objects further.
@Xena
“The narrative for the EMT report in the 2nd document dump says, “All injuries have minor bleeding.””
That will also be very damaging for Zimmerman’s defense. Minor bleeding, no bruises, no major cuts…this will also come back to bite him. His injuries do not support a reasonable threat of great bodily harm or murder.
@Brown. Thanks for the link, but I can’t see the actual key on the pic taken at the crime scene. I seem to remember a pic of the key chain in a plastic bag after it was taken into evidence. That’s the one I’m looking for.
searching files….
@Fed-up taxpayer
I don’t think DNA on the upper part of Martin’s attire would mean anything because Zimmerman would probably have grabbed Martin’s shirt regardless of whether he was the aggressor or not.
@Patricia.
Serino uses the Christian Burial Speech to give people a perception of what they will hear or see before asking questions or going further. He did that with Tracy Martin before playing the tape with the screams for him. He did that with GZ when playing the NEN tape for him, saying that GZ was the good guy and filling-in some of the blanks for GZ. It’s my impression that is why GZ began having selective memory — just allow Serino to fill-in whatever necessary to clear him of breaking the law.
I don’t know if you or anyone else got the same impression but I felt there were times when Singleton was making progress, and Serino jumped in, interrupting her because her questions and statements were on point.
I think Singleton was great. Serino gave him too many soft openings imo
Xena, it was laughably clear that Serino and Singleton were playing Good Cop, Bad Cop. Doris was not putting up with any scat.
But I credit Chris for keeping George going on & on; kept handing GZ more rope. GZ never froze up or bolted. There were times Serino got tough, but mostly he was nurturing.
But he was lousy about placing the tape recorder, however what was heard did not do his career any good.
I give Sinleton an A, and Serino a B-minus, because he DID keep GZ talking. Well … maybe a C-minus.
You jest but I have seen the “delayed bleeding” scenario being debated. The only defense that shuts it down is to paste the transcript where Gz says he couldn’t see for the blood in his eyes.
Logi, if he couldn’t see for the blood in his eyes, how could he have placed that shot so precisely?
Okay, I found a picture of a man with a bloody and broken nose. I don’t know if it will help or not, but maybe it will give us an idea. Here are two links to the same guy but one picture shows more of his face.
Wow! Gross picture! Nope, GZ did NOT look like that. No broken nose, no beating.
isn’t that some broker who got beat up by cops ?
@Patricia.
The problem I had with Serino is that he led GZ to believe that he would not be arrested, regardless of his responses. OTOH, Singleton asked very appropriate questions, some based on what GZ said to her that are contradicted in his NEN call.
IMO, Serino made a mistake by telling GZ that the person witnessing that he tried restraining Trayvon is anonymous. Again, IMO, he should have said there is a witness who reported that, PERIOD. Telling GZ the witness wants to remain anonymous is like telling him the witness will never come forth.
I wonder if that is Witness 31?
Agreed, Xena, a lot to complain about Sirino.
Just saying the prosecution benefits from all the cockeyed stories Zimmerman has told, and Sirino kept him talking.
Xena, I believe he did take a pic of GZs face. It’s a black and white photo that shows his nose flattened with a bit of blood pooling in his beard underneath.
@Two sides to a story
That pic was taken by Officer Wagner with his personal IPhone and after GZ was cleaned up by the EMT’s. That is what makes it interesting that John would only photograph GZ’s head and not his purportedly bleeding nose. Also, it’s interesting because out of all of the pics, the one that John took of GZ’s head is the only one that some think is Photoshopped.
Xena, because it wasn’t noteworthy at that moment, perhaps.
Oh Malisha. Haven’t you read how the GZ fans explain that? The rain washed GZ’s blood off Trayvon. What they do not address is if the rain was that forceful, why didn’t it wash the blood off GZ’s big head.
That won’t wash.
@Dennis
I just again listened to the 3 EMT’s taped statements to FDLE. Interesting, the one EMT (O’Rouke) at GZ’s second bond hearing who testified that GZ’s face and head was 45 percent covered in blood, is the only one out of the three who volunteered that information in his statement. MOM must have cherry picked him out for that reason.
One EMT stated that GZ’s wounds had stopped bleeding. He also said that there was only one cut “straight up and down” on the back of GZ’s head almost central. Given that there was time in-between 2/26 and when they gave their statements, I can give him the benefit of the doubt that he did not fully remember.
The other EMT, the woman, stated that most of the blood on GZ had dried up.
I remember the snooty one. telling the interviewer no need for big words….
Brandy was the only Paramedic on the scene and author of the patient care report. O’Rouke was only an EMT. I believe he was hand picked as well.
GZ was not treated at all. No pressure bandages applied to active bleeding, no cold pack applied to swollen alleged broken nose, no band aids to contain residual slow bleeding. No treatment rendered AT ALL!
That would be O’Rouke, the one that O’Mara called to testify at the second bond hearing. IMO, he sounded defensive and arrogant. I was taught that when people sound defensive, it’s because they have something to hide.
yep
the pic you are looking for keychain in plastic bag where do you remember seeing it?
@Brown.
IIRC, in the document dump with the pics of GZ’s gun and holster, the bullet frags, and Trayvon’s hoodie and sweatshirt, I’m still looking too but my eyes are telling me it’s time to sleep.
ohh i think i know which one brb
I only found AA to have the gun clip in a plastic bag no key chain
I will keep looking though…
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/?album=1&gallery=1
Click to access Zimmerman-documents.pdf
this is what i found it has the sweatshirt , bullet fragments , but i did not see keychain in plastic evidence bag.
Will keep an eye out for it ….
me need to lay on the sofa for awhile , my ass is killing me
Have a look at Tchoupi’s weather charts and tell us if that wasn’t the same kind of raining that TM sheltered from? How would so much blood dry so quickly if wet, on a soft, oily, wet surface at 60 degrees in high humidity. We need a spatter tech here.
Brown, I do not know who the man is. I came across it looking for another image and this one happen to be on that page. For some reason, Google is not good at organizing and filing images under subject heading that they belong under because this one was definitely out of place. I forgot what I was looking for that day, but it definitely wasn’t anything to do with blood, broken nose, any type of injuries, or anything to do with police or law.
Thank you Granny for your response. I knew I remember seeing this man before here is the article for your files….
http://www.tmz.com/2012/08/27/brian-mulligan-lapd-lawsuit-photo-police-brutality-banker/
thanks again ….
Brown
There have been several assertions that there was no dna from Zimmerman on Martin’s hands. I have seen nothing that indicates that any such tests were done. Fingernails were clipped and tests done on them, but I see nothing that indicates that there were swabs from his hands.
Maybe it would make a difference had GZ said he was slapped around, but that is not his story. He gives very distinct moves made by Trayvon that uses — FINGERS. GZ did not describe Trayvon as a vain person careful not to break his fingernails.
As humans, we use our fingers (other than some drum players who play with the palms of their hands); everything we do starts with the tips of the fingers. Anything liquid that our fingers are put into gets into the fingernails.
Check out GZ’s re-enactment for when Trayvon purportedly cupped his hands over GZ’s nose and mouth. His demonstration provides that the tip of Trayvon’s fingers touched his skin. That would have resulted in GZ’s DNA on Trayvon’s fingernails. Grabbing the side of his head? DNA on Trayvon’s fingernails. (Had it been me, my fingernails would have been shoved so deep in that big head of his that they would have broken off in his dirty scalp.)
For Trayvon to grasp Zimmerman’s slippery wet bald head to smash it repeatedly into cement would certainly involve the use of Trayvon’s fingernails. If Zimmerman’s claim that Trayvon went all psycho thug on him (trying to kill him by bashing his head into concrete) Trayvon’s nails would have had to be dug into Zimmerman’s head.
Zimmerman is such a disgusting liar. After this last discovery evidence I hope he is scared to death he is going to prison.
BettyKath, it’s pretty standard to clip & save nails because there’s a history in the residue under them that does not dislodge easily.
If a homicide victim comes in with blood on the hands, that would be swabbed, Trayvon was a YBM, but YBM’s have white palms and any blood – especially the mess that would be stuck on them from having either hand over GZ’s bloody nose/mouth, would be exceedingly visible. Hands were carefully examined, because they saw the small cut/abrasion on the ring finger.
can’t find anything regarding swabs of palms, only scrapings and or cuttings of fingernails. Considering what Xena says about fingers, and the scratches on GZ face, you would think that at least some of his GZ’s DNA would be was under TM’s fingernails IF he scratched him. I understand what you are saying.
Follow
The gsr readings make sense. Zimmerman held Trayvon against his will and fired. His arm was slightly bent and it flew into Zimmerman’s chest area.
Forensics means Zimmerman is toast. Omara cant argue science. May Zimmerman burn in hell for being the evil person he is.
This post reminds me of some of my earliest arguments w / GZ supporters. They didn’t seen how any of the evidence could possibly exonerate TM or convict GZ. I told them the very same evidence used by the defense to illustrate their “story” is the very same evidence that will be used by the prosecution to illustrate their “story” and will convict GZ.
@ jun, that is why O’Mara added Don West to the defense.
During the second bond hearing West made it clear that his strategy is to use the witnesses to question each other’s judgements and credibilty or basically muddy the water because the evidence is overwhelmingly against the defendant.
@Roderick
its quite typical but I believe that they can sully the witnesses. They witnessed a kid get murdered and die. Corey will be there to object any leading or attempts to bully witnesses. I also dont think they will look good to the jury trying to make all the witnesses since their testimony corroborates each other. The importance is the positions of Z & T in their testimony as it slashes Zimmerman’s “address hunt for the house on the other side of the block”. I personally feel Corey has Z in checkmate position, evidence wise.
MOM’s almost impossible task will be to keep GZ’s conflicting stories away from their view. Jurors are repulsed by self serving stories, when they conflict with one another. Even worse when self serving statements conflict with the evidence. All GZ has are self serving statements and all of them are in conflict with what he says later and with what witnesses report, and with what the timelines show as possible, as well as what the evidence shows.
Meaning that MOM has to very well keep his mouth shut, and focus on pleading that GZ was human and only made mistakes because he was trying to keep the neighborhood safe. Of course, that’s going to fail, because if the safety of the neighborhood was his only or foremost concern, then why did he fail to identify himself when the opportunity arose?
The whole case, and everything in it, just swirls around GZ’s failure to identify himself. Most especially when he realizes his “suspect” has identified him as following. Because that is just a terrible “break point” between a neighborhood watch and a crazed vigilante on a mission to do serious harm. The police were moved to notice it, the public reading the evidence were moved to notice it, and the jurors will be moved to notice it too. Only difference is, they will be in a position to expect a clear and acceptable explanation of this conduct. If not, GZ is toast!
“The whole case, and everything in it, just swirls around GZ’s failure to identify himself. Most especially when he realizes his “suspect” has identified him as following.”.
Has Zimmerman given any reason at any time why he did not identify himself to Trayvon? Does he acknowledge Trayvon asked him why he was following him? So many variations in his story, I can’t remember what is “official” Zimmerman testimony.
JM. Zimmerman’s story is that Travon said “You got problem, homie?” and Zim, being cool and mellow and a great host & greeter for the HOA, said, “I don’t have a problem” and then Trayvon proceeded to beat the tar out of him and tried varous & sundry ways of killing him – cracking open his head on the sidwalk, choking him, smothering him, blinding him with blood, singing bad opera, serving him Brussel sprouts, making him dance the macarena, painting his toenails purple – every manner of devious torture but Tough, Invincible, George took it all like a Macho Man..
THEN, with X-Ray eyes, Trayvon saw through 207 lbs of Zimmerman and spotted the miniature gun perched on Zimmerman’s glutes (actually, just one glute. Gotta keep factual here.)
Paraphrasing May West, Trayvon, in his most suave Cab Calloway voice said, “Is that a gun in your pocket, or are you just mad to see me?”
ZOUNDS! Zimmerman suddenly recalled he was packing heat!
“Why yes, Homie,” he replied graciously. “Would you like a demo?” Reaching back under the flab, he drew out this squashed pitiful thing, looking more like a miniature glockenspeil than a Glock, and in his best mentoring approach he said, “Gee, Homie, I don’t really know much about these pocket accessories. Do you know how this works? I think it’s some kind of space radio” So Trayvon, who always wanted to be an aeronautical engineer, said “I’ll give it a try,” reaching for it and in the process wiping out Zimmermn’s prints and then, accidentally, the dang thing exploded, Travon done killed himself and George is out his space radio.
Zimmerman is now suing the Martins for his custom, titanium space device ($1,000,000) lost in the friendly encounter – or will, as soon as his lawyer gets off his website, any year now …
And so, as Walter Cronkite liked to say, JM, when it comes to Zimmerman’s alibi, “that’s the way it was.”
You got it?
LOL Patricia.
No matter what the spin Zimmerman puts on his story, I still don’t get why if Trayvon asked “homie” if he had a problem, why “homie” didn’t explain his problem and why he was following him. BTW, isn’t “homie” a friendly term for someone who you may have something in common with and better than referring to someone as azzhole.
“BTW, isn’t “homie” a friendly term for someone who you may have something in common with and better than referring to someone as azzhole.”
JM, the problem here, with Zimmerman, is that this, again, is dialog out of the 70’s, among Hispanc gangs in LA.
Well you brought it up, so I have to say this — please forgive — but when The Professor just now asked, could GZ have been passing himself off to Trayvon as a cop? “the Sheriff of RATL?” I thought of the phrase cops always used in the 70’s that Zimmerman would love.
You know how cops were always supposed to yell out, “POLICE! FREEZE!”?
Well they never did. The standard was “Freeze, Azzhole!”
One cop explained to me that the two syllable street word was just more efficient than three syllables. (It translates as “citizen.”)
When you want to be taken seriously, conveying anger does the job nicely. Thus swear words are used to do the job quickly and clearly. What could be more serious than an angry police office with a gun? Thus swearing may have actually saved lives.
You’re right, Lonnie. Street cops lead a hard, stressful life. Their language is a form of gallows humor. I worked with then for ten years and it took me 20 to clean up “most of” my act.
“Homie” like “Amigo” depends on it’s usage for it’s meaning. If used in a decidedly unfriendly situation it’s a pejorative. In a neutral situation it’s just a neutral address. In a friendly, jocular situation it’s a term of endearment. All it means is “Home mate”.
@Lonnie –
Seriously (not kidding, here) “home mate”?
I’m not much of a homie – it’s a guy thing – but in my barrio it means “a guy you know from the neighborhood”: (i.e. home town) and is often a gang member (although they have special codified greetings, like, uh – Shriners do) such as hand signs and flashing colors.. But, of course, you only greet your own gang members.
Ah yes… Well “Home mate” doesn’t refer to an actual home, it refers to “Home” as to people from another state coming together.
Say in Harlem, there would be two guys from Georgia in a bar, they’d call each other “homie’s” Same for people from other states. So it was more like “landsman”. Short for “from my home: state, county or neighborhood. Eventually everyone began using it as a term of endearment, then later sarcastically as a pejorative.
like “my friend” and “Buddy”.
OK, Homie – gotcha.
(Didn’t mean that last “Homie” as a pejorative, Meant I was on the same wavelength with you on the origin of the word. I apologize!)
Not at all Patricia, I took it as a humorous rejoinder.
depending where your from “homie” means friend buddy neighbor
If you say that’s my ” dog” Means guy with other guy friendship but it means he’s tough
If you say that’s my “roll dog ” traveling companion
If you are from NY, you say what up son, means homie
woman to woman that’s my bitch= best friend
Depending on where you live, and under what circumstances the words are said, they can take on a whole new meaning.
Yes, and the two finger victory v up here is “flipping the bird” down under. Maybe with the internet someone will come up with an International Uniform Code of Pejorative Gestures.
: ^ )
found this
http://onlineslangdictionary.com/
no international : ^ (
someone is working on it …..
This is the perfect opening: has anyone besides me ever wonder about those tattoos GZ? Recognized gang symbols( play now, pay later theatrical masks). GZs question to Martin sounds more like a gang member challenging someone on his turf. Is/ was GZ actually a gang member? Killing someone is part of some gang initiations.
You put your finger on something I had been wondering about for a long time. Very often innocuous but popular symbols are adopted for notorious purposes. Rome was a great collector of the religious symbols and ceremonies of people in foreign lands. Gangs too collect and adopt symbols from everywhere. GZ is no patron of the arts or even an aspiring actor. But, he did seem favor gangsta internet selections. But what? No “hip hop” connection? That he knew out-of-date gangsta lingo only says that he had no friends to keep himself current.
But, after all this time, observing NW rules so carefully, he suddenly breaks out with a murder? Well, this isn’t the first time I suggested that this could be part of some gang or group initiation project. It certainly has the look and feel of one. Hope the FBI is digging deep into the background. Because if this is an initiation of some sort, it comes mighty damned close to having a LE connection.
At one point GZ says that TM approached his truck and he rolled down the window. TM asked why GZ was following him and GZ says he replied that he wasn’t following TM, that’s when he should have identified himself.
Then again, when GZ was supposedly walking back to his truck, TM is supposed to have come up behind him and asked “Why are you following me for?”, GZ should then have answered by identifying himself as NW.
According to GZ’s account they only said one sentence each before the life-or-death fight started. Of course there are a number of problems with that, but I assume that Zimmerman would argue that he missed his short window of opportunity.
Was keychain entered into evidence? Too late for DNA testing?
They can. Corey is thorough and evidence is accounted for, sealed, labeled.
page 5 of discovery dump 1
evidence tag DMS-2
1 Honda Brand Key and keychain flashlight
Click to access Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf
Brown, DMS-22 is two (2) swabs, one collected from the Skittles and one from the tactical flashlight (not the keychain/key+flashlight).
We know the Skittles has GZ DNA/Blood. I haven’t found yet the results of the swab from the tech flashlight.
Anybody else got the results from DMS-22?
checking…..
i thought i was answering Fed up taxpayer about the keychain being entered into evidence … posted in wrong spot i think still checking on dms 22
Brown, Xena corrected me re whose blood was on Skittles: TM’s.
Let me know if you come up w/swab on keychain/flashlight. Will wait patiently – tons of messages tonight.
@ Patricia sorry wrong posted wrong link
this is where the info regarding swabs for DMS22 http://www.scribd.com/doc/102959489/Zimmerman-Discovery-Released-8-9-12
Page 6 or seven
76 page discovery dump
Brown, got it. Thanks!
@Patricia.
Trayvon’s blood was found on the bag of Skittles. My guess is that GZ transferred it there after touching Trayvon’s chest and during his subsequent frisk. In the alternative, an EMT transferred it.
@ Patricia sorry wrong posted wrong link
this is where the info regarding swabs for DMS22 http://www.scribd.com/doc/102959489/Zimmerman-Discovery-Released-8-9-12
Page 6 or seven
76 page discovery dump
Excellent reinforcement. Thank you, rown!
; ^ ))))
THANKS, XENA! Got the source of the “blood on the Skittles” wrong. Appreciate the correction!
Thank you for posting the photos.
you are so welcome
; ^ )
Fed-up,
Have been though 2 dox dumps (800 pages) for you but cannot locate the flashlight keyring. I’m certain they have it but the state did not test it. One of the other stuidents may have the ME’s doc/page, or you could check out Axiom Amnesia.
However I have REconsidered the possibility that GZ could have the BACK of his head injured at the T. Too much on-the-ground skirmishing in the wet grass would have wiped & smeared the blood trail pattern. It’s crisp. Proves it happened just before GZ shot Trayvon.
page 5 of discovery dump 1
evidence tag DMS-2
1 Honda Brand Key and keychain flashlight
Click to access Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf
copied from post above
Fed-up,
Yes, found it – “DMS-2” is the key-chair flaslight collected as evidence by SPD. I could find no swab related to it. Again, I don’t see this used on the back of GZ’s head then discarded at the T, because the dried blood pattern on the back of GZ’s head would not have stayed crisp through all that rolling around on the grass.
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/documents-2/police-reports/fdle-reports-9192012/
can t remember the page but its there
There are two flashlight one that like what police use and the keychain one. The like which the police use was the one said to have blood on it that’s the one Zimmerman said wasn’t working. Again I’m just fishing I may be wrong.
Tee –
Do you have access to the dox drops? As I recall, the tactical flashlight was negative. I don’t want to read 800 pages again but if nobody else gives you the answer, I will … later.
Patricia and Brown, thank you for helpful answers.
: ^ )
my pleasure….
Excellent post professor! I sent all of the gun fanatics who defend this gUy to this site.
Many thanks to Prof. Leatherman for monitoring responses for seriousness.
Explain?
I meant, he has “redacted” when necessary to keep the focus on the many aspects of this legal case, and instructing about its complexities, instead of letting trolls and billy goats have at it. Thank you Professor.
Now concluding that Trayvon did not bash GZ’s head into the concrete; i.e., tough GZ, the question is how did GZ acquire injuries to his head?
I was reading a blog and although not agreeing with sections it, the person wrote something that deserves contemplation. I paraphrase; The human head is not flat, it is round. The sidewalk is flat, not round. Bashing the head against the sidewalk might result in one large wound in the center of the head, but not elsewhere as with GZ’s wounds.
One wound appears to be caused by something thrown or used in a stabbing motion. It is round. The other wound is in a line as though caused by the edge of something sharp. The location and distance between the cuts questions if they were caused by having a round object hit against a flat surface.
As is my pattern, I looked for connection of the dots. In none of his statements does GZ ever mention his key chain with the small flashlight. He never mentioned turning it on, although it was found on. He doesn’t mention when he dropped neither what caused him to drop it. While everything else was found close to Trayvon’s body, GZ’s key chain with the small flashlight was found close to the T.
If a person on the bottom wants the person on top to “get off” of him, a key could cause the round wound if used in a stabbing motion, and also cause a straight line wound. Inflicting those wounds makes it reasonable to believe that it was in defense.
Not found in the debris area, and not being mentioned by GZ, makes it unlikely to be suspect for the testing of blood. If indeed those wounds were inflicted by Trayvon using the key to defend himself against GZ being on top of him, GZ would not want to give LE reason to suspect that the key chain was a part of the altercation.
Interesting…I hope to hear that at the immunity hearing.
Xena, very, very interesting. Very.
@Patricia. Let’s hope that key is tested for blood. If it is and it turns out to be GZ’s blood, then he omitted a part of the altercation — the part where Trayvon defended himself. I mean, GZ wouldn’t stand with his back to Trayvon getting stabbed on the back of head twice, right? Neither could Trayvon stab that big head if GZ was on his back.
Alas, Xena, I’m forced back into thinking the scalp injuries happened in the last few seconds before the shot – because of the crisp marking of the dried blood trails. Could find no swab for the keychain/flashlight.
Interestingly enough, there is ONE evidence retained from “George Michael Zimmerman” that was TOTALLY REDACTED in SPD report.
WTF? inquiring students want to know …
Ok I found
DMS 22b re flashlight
swab from flashlight failed for presence of blood
no dna
GREAAAAAT sleuthing, Brown.
Thanks!
And that would have been a handy weapon, too!
fingers are flying today
: ^ )
I haven’t forgotten about you Xena!!
caught that also, In the evidence dump I also noted that the Skittles lighter, photo button, headphones were all listed as located @ inside pocket. We know that TM put the Skittles in his pocket at the store. We also know that GZ said he’s got a button his shirt. How did the button get in his pocket? How do you get blood on skittles but not on the money, the photobutton headphones and lighter?
WELL, they did not say HOW MUCH blood was on the Skittles (I can’t believe I’m writing a sentence like that). We don’t have access to that.
I expect it was a very swift frisk. GZ said he was running out of time.
No B-Movie script covered his predicament.
good point…. still love b movies …..
@Patricia.
I remember seeing that too!!
Maybe it was his contact lenses? I remember GZ telling SheLIE when he was in jail that they were finally going to let him have his contact lenses. Don’t know, but would they have remained in his eyes through a head bashing, nose breaking, face punching, smothering, wrestling on the ground fight?
Nevah happened dahling, so the contacts stayed in.
Thanks to your reply, I’m thinking this refers to his RX.
@PATRICIA
Interestingly enough, there is ONE evidence retained from “George Michael Zimmerman” that was TOTALLY REDACTED in SPD report.
What do you mean from the gathering of evidence at the sscene?
Logi, Zimmerman was on prescription drugs at the time and this may have been those drugs (on him, not “in” him) and that the redaction was done to protect patient privacy. Maybe he carried a little pill case with him. It could be his contact lenses because apparently he complained to Shellie during the jailhouse calls that he hoped they would let him have his contacts.
But – redaction means redaction. The public is not supposed to know.
If you are talking about CFS-1 then I have the boring suspicion that it is the CVSA result. The date would be right and it is listed together with all the audio recordings.
/Same old PYorck, now with WordPress account
One of the witnesses stated that he saw Zimmerman, lying on the ground by himself on the back pathway, as if he slipped and fell. I think Zimmerman scratched his head then.
I don’t think that he would have gotten two injuries on his head with one fall unless he fell on something long enough to contact both places at the same time. I think he inflicted these wounds himself that’s why they are so superficial I believe that’s what he was doing when he walked back to the tee I strongly believe that he did this with that Black tactical flashlight found with blood on it when he realize trayvon didn’t have a weapon on him he had to act fast so he used it I may be wrong.
My theory is Zimmerman slipped and fell running, scraped his head on something and hit himself on the nose with his flashlight as he fell
Com’on people… You don’t really believe that a person who comes by injuries, from a beating that made them think they were going to die. Would not be at least curious as to how bad those injuries actually were?
I mean, if you know you’ve just sustained serious head injuries, and there’s lots of blood and you almost lost consciousness, you don’t just shrug your shoulders about it. You want to know how much damage was done to you.
Only if you are sure that the injuries are minor, and you know this because, you know how you came by them, then you don’t want to waste time in an ER.
Lonnie, you have such a sense of logic.
Wondering how the prosecution can present this.
The medical “records” will be interesting (if presentable).
Presentation is not a problem, since it goes to “state of mind”.
Q: Mr Zimmerman, you say you were beaten to within an inch of your life?
A: Yes!
Q: Your head was about to explode?
A: Yes!
Q: Did you know how serious your injuries were?
The rest is obvious, if GZ even tries to lie in this chain of questioning, he’s toast! He’ll be put in the position of where he’ll have to both minimize and dramatize his injuries at the same time. That wouldn’t work in front of kindergarteners.
@lonnie
And you certainly wouldn’t ask the first witness on scene…”am I bleeding?”
Your attorney claims you shot in response to your “broken nose.” You claim, you were punched and your head was banged on concrete eleventy billion times…you claim you couldn’t see because of the blood during the beating.
But despite ALL OF THAT, you aren’t sure if you are bleeding…yeah, uh huh!
sorry for taking your reply spot but this is for JUN
Jun
Posted
One of the witnesses stated that he saw Zimmerman, lying on the ground by himself on the back pathway, as if he slipped and fell. I think Zimmerman scratched his head then.
Which witness ? please post link or news article pleasseeee
The jurors will quickly be laughing like a bunch of freshmen English students being introduced to a new novel that isn’t quite right.
Try to think of the trial as a television series of so many episodes.
The opening statements set the background. They introduce the characters and briefly outline what they did. Or, where necessary, what they failed to do, if it clearly follows that they should not have failed. As, for example, screaming for help for 10 minutes, with a cell phone in hand, but not dialing 911; “in the confusion!”
The story will unfold with GZ leaving home, coming down RVC west to the front gate, on a shopping trip. It will be explained that this weekly family shopping trip was interrupted by a suspicious person, coming onto the estate, by moving between houses.
Sounds suspicious and GZ is NW so everything is unfolding as it should. The jurors will be wondering “what’s the problem with that?” That’s when the SP begins providing more information:
“Between buildings” is a short cut that neighborhood kids routinely use all the time. TM has come thru there, 3 minutes before GZ arrives, and the cctv’s show that he saw nothing there, and did not go out the front gate to the store, but instead stayed and drove around looking for someone and found them. So that makes the jurors go Hmmmm… for the first time. That ends the first episode.
Now, each episode there after, the jurors are going to go Hmmm… several times more, and each time louder than the last. Until, by the time the get to the last episode, where the “suspects” life ends, all the jurors will see is a vicious fool, trying to escape a life sentence for an incredibly heartless and heinous act. For those able to watch, that should explain the stony faces, the jurors come back into the court house wearing.
Indeed!
Brown, the witness was the kid taking his dog for a walk.
ah austin ok
Alternatively, GZ could have used the key and/or the flashlight to inflict the minor but colorful wounds upon himself to bolster his self defense claim.
I still think the 2 lacerations and the bruises on his head came for contact with the concrete cover and the round thingee for the handle. The larger laceration and the circular bruise match the handle thingee. The linear bruise that goes from above the larger laceration to the smaller one matches the edge of the concrete.
BettyKath,
Can you locate a straight-down shot of the concrete utility cover? Need to see same.
Definitely within the final encounter field. Thanks!
(Need to see what a “thingee” looks like.)
Dave, three witnesses and a cop presented themselves almost immediately after the shot, and GZ had to frisk TM’s body and re-arrange it. If he was messing with his own head, I think that would have been seen. Blood was dried when he asked Jon (Asian Male witness) to photograph it moments after the shot.
FDLE spray painted two areas in the grass, so there’s something there they are looking at (photos released thios week.).
I know a sprinkler head sounds ludicrous (for the back-of-the head grooves) but they are tough little beggars because they are made of high-impact plastic to survive mowers/tractors driving over them.
One of the spray-paint areas is logical for a sprinkler head. I talked to the landscape company that had the contract at Retreat at the time of the shooting, so I know the sprinkler head used.
@ everyone
Here are some very good photos by jeandodge67
Patricia,
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/evidence-photos/miscphotos/?nggpage=2
photo 38 has a good shot. There is another one further down the path. It looks to me like the “thingee” is the right diameter for the larger laceration and the edge of the concrete is the right distance from it for the bruise leading to the other laceration.
the second picture down looks close
http://www.kkindia.com/manholecovers.html
I think I found a match BettyKath
http://www.usabluebook.com/p-272807-d-1000-meter-lid-only-plastic-drop-in-solid.aspx
Brown, I don’t think either of your examples match. Look at the photo I indicated. It is square with rounded corners, not rectangular.
Bettykath
As soon I find a match to your specs I will post …unitl then this is what I have found that resembles somewhat to those covers
@Xena—
I mentioned on your blog a month or so ago, the PM report says the mechanism of injury (lacerations) caused by blunt trauma thrown object.
@Logi. Yes, I remember and tonight when I read the report again, it is certainly there. Being EMT’s they are probably accustomed to the cause of injuries. In the recorded statements of all 3, they said that GZ did not make any statements to them about how his injuries were obtained.
The “blunt trauma thrown object” conveys an object coming into contact with his head by force, rather than his head coming into an object.
@Xena–
Yes it means exactly what he wrote “thrown object” The thing is, Brandy will have to explain who told him that. He said Zimmerman gave no explanation, and whoever he is quoting would’ve had to witness it happen or say that GZ told them so. The problem Brandy then has is why he didn’t ask Zimmerman what happened. Zimmerman in one of his statements to officer Singleton says the medics told him he couldn’t go to the hospital he had to go to the station. He signed off declining transport on the report though. I don’t know who this info is more use to the defense or prosecution.
@Xena
The reason I say I don’t know who will get better use of the fire responders testimony is because they should’ve been asking GZ about his injuries and how they happened, that’s part of their job. Even at the basic skill level (EMT).
@logi
I would have to say it benefits the prosecution. That is another piece of evidence that Zimmerman did not sustain the injuries as he claimed they happened. Knowing that information, it sounds even more like Martin swung his bag at Zimmerman. The small scrapes on his head may have come from the top part of the can where the tab to open it is. I have heard that the Arizona can was found in the hoody pocket on Martin, which does not make sense. It makes no sense to get a bag at the store then take the cold drink out, put it in your pocket, and keep the bag too. If I was walking home, the only reason I would take it out of the bag would be to drink it.
Here is my theory. Zimmerman took the Arizona can and placed it in Martin’s pouch to give credence that Martin was reaching for something that could have been a weapon. If that is true, I am also willing to bet that either Zimmerman’s fingerprints or DNA is on that can.
@dennis – that has been my theory as well. I believe GZ put that can in TM’s pocket and then he made the comment about it feeling like TM had something in his hands when he was hitting him in the face. The intelligent members of the SPD just placed in on the yellow tarp over TM’s body. I don’t even know if it was tested.
The can would have dents, blood & epithileals. I dont think it was the can. It was perfectly intact
Xena, Didn’t GZ say in his reenactment that he thought Trayvon had something in his hands and that is why he claimed to spread out him arms after he shot him?
his arms
Yes, GZ said that — however, it’s kinda hard to place both hands over someone’s face and nose while also holding a hard object.
Following
get that ball of thread
meow
I try, Brown, I try. This class is tough and lots of star students.
; ^ )))
I would expect to find GZ’s DNA on Tm’s shirt where GZ pulled it up. Could it be someone else grabbed TM?
Heart, thanks go to The Professor for establishing “the airlock” earlier, after research with forensic investigators.
I will do that Patricia. Thank you again and this particular subject on the DNA has been interesting to read. Trayvon’s last moments had to be one of complete horror and I cannot imagine how a jury will not find Zimmerman guilty.
Camanokat, GZ’s blood DNA is on Trayvon’s inner T-shirt; I expect this happened when GZ was frisking Tryvon for a weapon after he shot him. Hoping to establish Trayvon as a “thug.”
If Trayvon was a THUG, this now stands for
“True heart under God.”
I hope his parents know we have come to know and care for Trayvon after death, and we love their son.
I totally agree with your sentiments Patricia, he has become our son too. The family knows we care, they know we are out here turning over every stone and will not stop until true justice is served.
I still get the feeling there was another person involved.
Need some physical evidence, camanokat.
Wouldn’t surprise me if Osterman saw GZ and sent TM off on a search expedition but there’s no reason for any of those guys to involve themselves in a serious crime – which pursuing and grabbing Trayvon was.
Why should Osterman lose his sky marshal job?
Why should MO lose his sky marshal job? b/c he’s too stupid to keep it.
Sky marshalls are supposed to be undercover. Osterman is now an easily recognized public figure thanks to his media appearances. Maybe he can find another gangster who needs a “bodyguard”.
Dave, Dr. Phil agreed (stated on the air) that he would not disclose Osterman’s employmen “in law enforcement.”
So passengers will just think they are flying with a famous author.
Not.
Camanokat. the testing AT THAT DATE was for DNA in blood, and also fibers. Unknown if they’ve gone back to checking for other DNA.
Also unknown as to results from fiber tests.
If GZ straddled TM, expect fibers from TM’s hoodie and/or tan pants to be on the crotch “saddle area” of GZ’s jeans.
Actually, NO GZ DNA should be on ANY part of TM or his clothing.
Zimmerman had NO LEGAL RIGHT to lay a finger on this law-abiding juvenile.
I hope the prosecution emphasizes this repeatedly to the jury.
Zimmerman was breaking the law BEFORE he shot Trayvon and Zimmerman knew it. He hoped that “dead men tell no tales” — and killed the witness to silence him.
We are among the thousands of voices that are raised in Trayvon’s behalf.
We will not be silenced.
Amen Patricia!
Hi, camanokat –
Re “I would expect to find GZ’s DNA on Tm’s shirt where GZ pulled it up. Could it be someone else grabbed TM?”
No, canaokat, there’s no cast of thousands here. TM’s shirt was grabbed in front, a little askew because Zimmerman used his dominant hand (left). He didn’t peel it up from the bottom.
It was simply a way to control and detain Trayvon. Just reached out & grabbed it. One simple motion.
GZ knows this stuff. He was a bouncer in “the old days.” (Pre-Shellie.)
We’re getting stoked on DNA. DNA testing on BLOOD was released. Tests on fiber were ordered and have NOT YET been released. Keep in mind that DNA is 99% used to establish WHO committed the crime. WE KNOW THAT. He confessed immediately.
We are all now rumbling on about DNA to see how locations of DNA fit GZ’s stories — or our analysis.
There’ll be more info later. Need to be patient and wait for that.
Maybe no trial until 2014!
Heart, we discussed GSR (gun shot residue) a few weeks back. Separete forensic examiner for that, not in today’s report but released earlier
GSR found on TM’s torso and INside surface of TM’s inner sweatshirt.
My analysis: these are the surfaces of the “airlock” (created when GZ grasped TM’s shirts to restrain him.) GZ placed muzzle of gun on taut outer “hoodie” creating slight depression in the shirts, grasped together 2″ – 4″ away from Trayvon’s torso – so GSR did not escape upward/outward. Propelled inside.
Minor GSR on GZ upper right back sleeve could have come from Tim Smith (Sanford PD) who took Kel-Tek from GZ, then handcuffed GZ at the scene. Simple transfer of GSR.
Patricia, Thank you for your response and I will go back to find where this was discussed…my bad 🙂
The “airlock” that makes perfect sense. Thanks again.
I missed that discussion and had the same questions about the GSR. Thanks for the pointer.
That “particle of lead” could also have come from the flying shell casing. Who knows where it traveled.
I believe the shell casing is made out of brass. Lead is soft and used to make bullets. I don’t know how or when that fragment of lead got on the back of the upper right sleeve of his jacket, but I doubt it has anything to do with this case.
Don’t know much about firearms, so I will leave this matter to others to comment upon
Same here, I’m no gun guy either. It was just an off hand guess, that maybe someone will confirm or refute.
First I love your blog it gives us a platform to properly express ourselves & analyze the evidence. I think that the absence of DNA on Martin hands is what will keep zimmerman from receiving immunity durning his self defense hearing. Martin could not have covered zimmermans mouth and nose with his hand and arm and not get blood on both it is physical impossible because per Zimmerman he already received the broken bloodied nose by Martin hands. Zimmermans blood should be on martins hands and the sleeve of his hoodie. how would MO account for none being there surely a nose that was bleeding when the police & emt arrived had to be bleeding before their arrival a broken nose is not going to wait for just the right moment to begin to bleed being that zimmerman said that he was beating even after that first blow to the nose i would assume that his blood should be everywhere on martin hands if not then i can only assume that the injury had to occur after Martians death and before police arrival.
I think shooting one-handedly allowed the gun to recoil backward, banging Zimmerman on the bridge of the nose and causing it to bleed.
I think you might be right about that.
I agree with you. That was my first thought when I saw His injury that he was a victim of his on guns kick-back and his tactical flashlight being that it had blood on it.
agree on the recoil
I seriously doubt it. The 9mm Luger cartridge doesn’t kick all that hard, even when fired from a lightweight gun like GZ’s. The only way that recoil would have caused the gun to hit GZ in the nose would be if he was holding it a foot or less in front of his face–highly unlikely.
I picture in my head GZ standing or on top of TM holding onto his sweatshirt , there is not alot of space between them so I think he aims the gun but holding it like they do in the movies sideways and the recoil hits him in the face, nose starts bleeding, TM is shot dead. Nose starts to bleed as soon as he checks his body leaving a blood drop on his inside shirt. Just a theory….
Brown, coroner’s trajectory report sez shot fired straight in, no angle sideways or up or down.
That must be where the unfortunate phrase “dead on” comes from.
yep but that doesn’t mean the gun wasn’t aimed sideways. I think gz watches to many bad movies where the guy with the gun aims it gangster style if you can imagine that maybe you can see what I am trying to describe
Hmmmmm, Brown.
Tryng to figure “aiming sideways.”
Thinking hard!
like this
Brown … gotcha. Hand held sideways.
Be thinkin’ about that one. Interesting!
Now imagine right hand holding gun sweatshirt left hand. remember Osterman’s little deal about rotating the gun.
IMO sideways…..
HIs weapons trainer MO would never allow that! Such a cheap weapon would probably jam.
True true, but we know that GZ doesn’t adhere to sound advice.
: ^ )
True, true as well. Well, several “believable stories” equal one unholy unbelievable story.
I have been thinking “His Kel-Tek is not a Glock.”
But that seems petty of me.
So, I’ll be petty.
forgot to mention he only had one hand to control the gun not two. I think he could easily hit himself with the kick of that gun without proper hand control. JMO
Dave, since I agree with the notion that GZ grabbed and pulled down on TM’s shirt+hoody, and I think TM was pulling away, I think it’s quite likely that the gun was less than a foot from GZ’s nose.
Fed-up, if the casing flew back into GZ’s nose, I think some GSR would be scattered in the vicinity. None discovered on GZ’s clothes or exterior of TM’s clothes.
I think that mean-spirited dog-poop station cracked him in the nose when he fell into the sign – and dropped his flashlight/keychain as he was hopping in pain..
Supposedly he bought the Kel-Tek to protect himself from dogs.
Payback time from the dog world.
GZ got the CWP shortly after he waited out the 3 year period after court-ordered diversion program/domestic restraining order (you can’t get the permit if you’ve had those on your record within 3 years). I think Big Boi is another shaggy dog story.
It’s my understanding that GZs handgun doesn’t have much of a recoil.
Zimmerman’s gun has strong recoil
? I’ve read both on this site, that the gun both does and does not have strong recoil! How can this be ascertained?
If the GFR got pulled into TM’s hoodie and shirt it wouldn’t be all over GZ. In the VST, GZ’s arms were both bent in his demonstration of the firing. His left hand was about 8″ from his face, his right hand beyond. If his left hand was holding Trayvon’s clothing, and the shot was point blank into his clothes, the gun with probably 8-10″ from GZ’s face.
Thanks, Brown, for the videos. That’s certainly a big help in understanding the Kel-tec recoil! I suppose with a sloppy, one-handed sideways shot in a tight situation you just might get a pretty decent pop to the nose.
You are very welcome…
: ^ )
Cielo62,
You can ascertain the KelTec PF9’s level of recoil by buying or borrowing one and firing it. My opinion is based on extensive firing of a slightly heavier pistol chambered for the same 9mm cartridge.
LOL! No thanks. Guns are not my thing. I guess I want to know if it’s hard for a heavyset man like GZ. For me, although I am not light (overweight I’m afraid) I have no shooting experience. It would buck and shoot me in the foot! In either case I don’t think the recoil did any damage; GZ smashed his ugly mug @ the doggie poop station.
I checked with someone who carries the same model of gun.
The gun HAS A STRONG RECOIL.
I recall reading somewhere that it’s strong recoil is one of it’s major disadvantages.
@Bear and Fed-Up –
“I checked with someone who carries the same model of gun.
The gun HAS A STRONG RECOIL.”
Great checking, Bear!
This figures: the lighter the gun, the less mass to absorb the energy expended in making the shot. But all guns are different, as are all shooters different in their sensitivity to their guns’ recoil.
Additionally, in this case, this was likely Zimmerman’s first serious one-handed shot, and he made it with his weaker hand, as his left dominant hand was otherwise occupied grasping the shirts. So he had little control over the movement of the gun after he pulled the trigger, and because he would have been LEANING FORWARD (get to that in a minute) he could have caught a good smack on the snoot.
Some noses are more sensitive than others – but WHERE they get smacked will influence the severity of the nosebleed. There are plenty of noses that bleed without being broken – plenty. But when they bleed, BOY, DO THEY BLEED!
Really, a cracked nose is no big deal. It’s the same as a cracked rib – if there’s no displacement, you’re just careful, and suddenly six weeks later you are surprised it doesn’t hurt anymore. Six weeks without hugs is no picnic, but it’s no emergency, either.
(I fall out of trees a lot, so I’m experienced with this. I have an avocado grove.)
What amazed me about Zimmerman’s dramatic victimization story of his “attack” that night is that IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE KILLING, his VITAL SIGNS WERE ALL NORMAL, and within an hour or so, after he was cleaned up and photographed at the SPD station – in fact, even as he walked in, STEADY ON HIS FEET, no problem with balance despite being handcuffed, the guy DID NOT LOOK LIKE HAD JUST BEEN IN A BRAWL. No damage whatsoever. A few little cuts & dings – like a kid gets in the schoolyard.
OK, back to the recoil damage to the nose: I believe Zimmrman had Trayvon restrained, by GZ sitting on top, straddling Trayvon’s arms and body. Or kneeling on either side of Trayvon, imprisoning his arms and body.
He is then in the perfect position to draw the Kel-Tek from his inside-waistband holster on his “right rear back hip” (GZ’s quote), swing the Kel-Tek forward, put the muzzle to Trayvon’s face (escalating Trayvon’s final terrorized screams), snarl, “You’re gonna die tonight, mother-fucker!” (Another quote from Mr. SmutMouth.)
GZ could not silence those screams now, because both his hands were occupied: grasping the shirts, and grasping the gun.
Then he lowers the gun to Trayvon’s torso, to where he estimates the heart will be, rests the muzzle on the taut hoodie, again for control (his hands may have been shaking somewhat), makes certain it’s safely separated from his grasping left hand barely inches away, presses the muzzle slightly into the stretched fabric, thus slightly into the “airlock,” and fires his single shot, destroying Trayvon’s heat and lungs.
Now, all that can be accomplished inside a minute or less. But both very carefully and deliberate – for Zimmerman’s own safety, and to accomplish the task.
ALL DURING THAT TIME Zimmerman’s head will be leaning forward, PARTICULARLY AT THE MOMENT OF FIRING, AND GUN RECOIL. Because the gun had to be placed perpendicularly to Trayvon’s torso to accomplish the trajectory in the evidence, Zimmerman would have to be LEANING FORWARD so he was 95% DIRECTLY ABOVE THE GUN when he pulled the trigger. Under those circumstances, it would be hard for the recoil to miss him! Also, he could have injured his nose earlier in the encounter or when rolling on the ground – and then RE-injured it by the gun’s recoil.
The fresh blood flow pattern from the back of his head acoss his cheeks into his FuManchu goatee, is also consistent with the above.
So … when does Murder 2 enter into this?
The moment he gets into that final crouched position, DECIDES to draw his gun, AIM and FIRE.
This was no erratic defensive shot. It was made with deliberate calculation. He could have DISABLED Trayvon SERIOUSLY by shooting him in the shoulder! It was his intent to kill his helpless quarry. To quote George Michael Zimmerman: “I aimed my gun, and fired.”
His words.
Trayvon’s death.
Patricia,
You may be right, but you’re describing a premeditated murder.
Premeditation only requires more than a moment in time. The crucial distinction is not length of time. It’s reflection on the decision to kill and deciding to go ahead and kill.
So, he straddles TM immobilizing him and decides to kill him. Now we have intent to kill.
He pulls out his gun and taunts TM, terrorizing him. We hear TM’s terrorized shriek and we know he knows GZ is going to kill him.
Now, GZ has an opportunity to change his mind. He doesn’t.
Instead, knowing the cops were only moments away, he savors the coming kill by slowly placing the muzzle against the fabric positioning the gun where he wants it, probably by positioning it against TM’s skin so that TM would feel it as GZ felt for the right place, and then he backed off an inch or so while still gripping the fabric tightly, aimed and pulled the trigger. To aim, he would have had to lean forward and sight down the barrel bringing his face probably to within 12-18 inches of the gun.
That’s premeditation.
Curiously, the statute that defines M2 reads in pertinent part,
“evincing a depraved mind indifferent to human life, but without premeditation”
Now where does that leave you?
I also think there’s a good chance that the injury to his nose and/or the back of his head might have happened with TM falling on him after the shot. This is William Walton’s idea, although he has GZ falling on top of TM after the shot.
I want to know where bloodstains and A and D are located on the shirt TM was wearing under the hooded sweatshirt. I also want to see color photos of them so that I can figure out whether it’s dripped blood or transferred blood.
It’s frustrating not having the complete discovery to work with.
At least we can ask the right questions.
We also have to remember that the SP is under time constraints to bring a charge while the investigation is still ongoing, and hasn’t yet built up enough evidence to approach M1 realistically.
My guess is, as the investigation continues to flesh out the details, they can still go to a GJ and get an M1.
Picture from discovery dump
stain locations a b c d e
Is this what you need Profeesor?
“I aimed and fired”, hardly what one would expect of someone claiming to be about to lose consciousness. Where any shot at all would have to do. He admits to deliberately selecting a choice of which shot to take. He deliberately chooses a fatal shot. The jury will want to know why he decided to take this shot, and how he was able to find time to decide.
@Lonnie –
“He deliberately chooses a fatal shot. ”
That’s it, Lonnie.
Hello, Murder One.
I’d like to see Z stand next to the dogie poopie sign. I’d bet the lower edge lines up with his nose. I think he may have whacked his nose on it, bent over in pain cussed a few choice words and whacked the upper back side of his head when he stood back up.
Just picture any of the 3 Stooges.
So if the so called broken nose was caused by recoil do the dna results back this up.God I hope the prosecution has a strong case.Luv Luv this blog.
Agree and throw in the fact that you can also obtain someone’s DNA from dead skin cells, sweat or saliva.
I also agree with all the results. There is one that baffles me about the gun residue, not sure of right terminology, that was spoken of on axiomamnesia.com only being found on the back of the sleeve of GZ’s coat. They were even questioning how it was possible that GZ was the actual shooter. My first thought of course is that he was definitely not on his back when he shot Trayvon but I thought that all along. But how is that the only place they found the residue? Any thoughts?
PS: I would also like to thank the professor for an outstanding blog and all the posters here. I do not post often but I do follow along!
I agree with all conclusions.
“The only place where Zimmerman’s blood and DNA are present is Martin’s shirt, which he was wearing underneath the hooded sweatshirt.”
If that blood is on the front of TM’s shirt, it suggests that GZ was over TM while TM was on his back. It also suggests that GZ turned him over to the position that TM was in when seen by SPD, GZ has said that TM got in that position when he fell over or it happened when GZ wiggled out from under him.
Is it likely that a possible closed fracture to the nose would result in the nose bleeding? Is it more likely that the nose would not bleed? Has GZ claimed anywhere that his nose bled? Or did the EMT’s indicate it?
The DNA evidence says absolutely not since there was none of GZ’s blood on TM even after putting his hands over GZ’s nose. (no, I don’t believe TM did this, but if GZ said he did, and if GZ claimed a nose bleed, than it’s just one more whopper.)
I just looked at the emt summaries. GZ had a bloody nose. If there had been blood on TM’s hands, I would expect it to have been tested. Given the amount of blood the emt’s suggest, it would also have been on TM’s cuffs. Conclusion: TM didn’t do the smother/mouth cover bit. Conclusion 2: GZ is a big fat pants on fire liar, again.
BettyKath, I just noted in today’s dox dump that the Trayvon’s sleeves, on both the sweatshirt and the hoodie were tested UP TO THE ELBOW. I was pretty darned impressed by that thoroughness.
yep his pants are aflame for sure!
Hey, waitaminute, Logi! Keep them pants for fabric testing!
@PATRICIA
: )
I agree.
Very good presentation. IMO, and based on the lab results, Trayvon never touched GZ. Also, GZ’s story about being smothered is not supported by the lab results.
I wished they had taken swaps off Trayvon’s mouth and surrounding area because they may have found GZ’s DNA there.
“(1) dripped blood from Zimmerman’s wounds as he leaned forward above Martin’s body either before or after the shot, or
(2) transferred blood from Zimmerman’s hands as he handled Martin’s body.”
Bada bing!!!
George says that with his nose bleeding “copiously”, Trayvon put his hand across George’s mouth thus “suffocating him, as he could not breathe through his nose. It is physically impossible that Trayvon could have done that without getting his hand covered in blood from Zimmerman’s nose. Another link in the chain Zimmrman is building around his neck.
Thanks for another great post Professor!!!
everything leads to Zimmerman lieing, but I still cant shake the feeling that zimmerman is going to get away with murder.
Why so long to go to trial? Why is Fox News so sure he is inocent ? I think about this case every day, and pray TM gets
justice. This post was great research,, I just hope it gets in the right hands.
Why so long to get to trial?
Because his attorney asked for waiver to right of speedy trial as a good way to get some distance between his client’s evidence and public opinion. There will be many continuances filed by MOM to allow interest to fade.
Why does Fox maintain his innocence?
You do know fox is ultra conservative, right? And this case has stupidly gotten right wing overtones. If TM was white, Fox would be against GZ…painting GZ as probably an illegal Mexican immigrant.
The EMT Report states:
Zimmerman – Mucous Membrane: NORMAL
(i.e.: No blood/fluid, no swelling, no discoloration.)
The gunshot stippling on the tip of George’s nose was the source of the bleeding (all exterior).
Intense small area of stippling looks like he took the recoil in the bridge of his nose (he used is non-dominant hand to fire the gun). Witnesses Surdyka and anonymous eyewitness (CNN & ABC) state person on top got up after gunshot. GZ was leaning over Trayvon Martin with the stippling wound bleeding drops onto TM’s undershirt.
(EMS, not EMT): Googled “EMS Report Zimmerman”
Click to access zimmerman.fdems.report.pdf