Zimmerman: Motion for a Change of Venue

The Sixth Amendment, which is applicable to state criminal proceedings through the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment provides:

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

The Impartial Jury Clause is at issue in the Zimmerman case because of:

(1) The tsunami of outrage nationwide in reaction to State’s Attorney for Seminole County, Norm Wolfinger’s decision not to charge Zimmerman with a crime for killing Trayvon Martin;

(2) Governor Scott’s decision to replace Wolfinger with State’s Attorney Angela Corey;

(3) Wolfinger’s decision to retire;

(4) Angela Corey’s decision to charge Zimmerman with second degree murder;

(5) The firing of Chief Bill Lee of the Sanford Police Department for his handling of the investigation into Trayvon Martin’s death;

(6) The release of much of the evidence in the case to the public before trial; and

(7) the conduct and various miscues of Zimmerman, Mark O’Mara, and Zimmerman’s friend Mark Osterman, who have attempted to try the case in the media to generate sympathy and financial support for Zimmerman’s defense effort.

What we now have is an extraordinary mess in which it seems that everyone in the country, never mind Seminole County, has a strong opinion about Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence.

The question is whether it is possible for Zimmerman to get a fair trial by an impartial jury in Seminole County or anywhere else in Florida and, if not, whether and to what extent should Zimmerman’s conduct by publicizing his case, including going on the Sean Hannity Show and pouring gasoline on the fire by proclaiming that he had no regrets for killing the unarmed teen because it all happened according to “God’s Plan,” should play a role in deciding what should be done about the mess.

Before anyone attempts to answer my two questions, please consider something that I know to be true from personal experience. I have represented clients in high visibility cases where it seemed impossible that any sentient being in the state did not have a strong opinion about the guilt or innocence of my client and in each case we were able to select a jury of twelve people, plus alternates, who claimed to know very little about the case and not to have formed an opinion about the guilt or innocence of my client. That happened in the Casey Anthony case and I predict it will happen in the Zimmerman case too.

The point is there are many people who have no interest in the crime news and never read, watch or listen to it.

There are two potential solutions.

One is for the Court to grant a defense motion for a change of venue, which will likely be forthcoming soon, and follow the procedure used in the Anthony case. Pick the jury in an adjoining county, sequester them for the trial, and try the case in the Seminole County Circuit Court.

The second solution is to wait and see what happens during jury selection. Have all the prospective jurors fill out a questionnaire that asks them to write down what they’ve read, heard or seen about the case and state whether they have formed an opinion about Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence. Then you bring them in and question them individually until you are able to seat a six-person jury, plus alternates.

I favor a mixture of both options.

The Court and both parties have a common interest in doing what they can to assure a fair trial by an impartial jury. They should join together to hire a polling firm and have them design a questionnaire or series of questionnaires to poll citizens in Seminole and Orange County as well the larger urban communities in Miami, Tampa and Jacksonville. Have them tabulate the results and chart any changes over time.

The results of the poll should provide a statistically valid estimate of the probability that Zimmerman can receive a fair trial from an impartial jury in any of those communities.

Without a poll, the Court would not have a sufficient basis to make a decision.

We know from experience that jurors hate being sequestered and their rising anger can affect how they decide the case in unpredictable ways. It’s also extremely expensive. Therefore, sequestration should be avoided, if at all possible.

If the Court is going to allow the jurors to go home, home cannot be somewhere on the far side of the Moon. The poll should help select the proper venue and the best solution might involve trying the case in a distant venue rather than transporting and sequestering the jury in Sanford.

For all of these reasons, I recommend using a poll to select the venue, non-sequestration of the jury, and the use of questionnaires with individual voir dire to select the jury.

171 Responses to Zimmerman: Motion for a Change of Venue

  1. William Walton says:

    Prof: how many times can the defense request a new jucge and a change of venue. Does any entity have complete control over this trial? Also providing I have the time, I will email you tomorrow a scenario on how CZ injured or broke his nose,

    • They can always ask, but I think they’ve pushed their luck about as far as it will go.

    • William Walton says:

      Prof; another science concept for you and your followers to consider. This science concept is the Physics Force of a Falling Object. The falling object in this case is TM’s lifeless body. It has been mentioned in the forensics blogs that it was determined that GZ and TM were standing with GZ tighly holding onto TM’s hoodie as the fatal shot was fired. Thus, the Physics concept of Force F=m(kg)Xa(force of gravity= 9.81 m/s^2) comes into play. The m would be the combined kg of TM and GZ which = 181.82 kg. Thus, F=181.82 X 9.81 = 400.98 Pound Force. It is thought that this force would be enough to either break GZ’s nose or at least give him one hell of a nose bleed when they hit the ground. The resistance due to air or the cushioning effect of the grass would be negligible due to the short distance of the fall. In addition, in Physics it is a well established fact that for every Action there is a Reaction. Thus, with GZ being alive and the force with which he hit the ground, he would have bounced off the limp body of TM. If the shooting took place near the concrete sidewalk, GZ could have very possibly hit his head on the sidewalk causing the abrasions on the back of his head. As my Chemist Daughter and Mechanical Engineer Son would tell me I hope I have Dumbed this down enough. In addition, some will say that GZ would have had time to release the hoodie. Probably not since the time frame calculated would be <6 seconds. Prof, just another concept.

  2. Mr Leatherman,

    Would some of Omara’s antics like playing to the racists for money and trying to ruin Trayvons reputation going too far? The out right lies to have the judge thrown off the case does that hurt his career in any way? Omara’s website for his firm seems to be trying to paint a picture of this kid that doesnt seem truthful. Does the family have any legal recourse against Omara? Could this case damage Omara if so how?

  3. Malisha says:

    In the condensed-redensed-superdensed version, hitting the shelves of your favorite bookstores soon, you will find several things have changed.

    1. Osterman will have remembered that George told him that while he was looking for a street sign, he saw another sign — a sign of Divine Intervention — that instructed him to turn away from the bushes whence came thugs, and verily he did so.

    2. Osterman will have remembered that George told him that while he was looking for a house address, the number “666” appeared before him, and he realized that he was chosen to eradicate the mark of the beast, and so he stood still, in awe, for a couple of minutes until a murderous “guy” asked him what his problem was, but he thought that question meant did he have a problem following his godgiven calling to eradicate the Beast and based on that assumption of meaning, he said, “No, I don’t have a problem,” which is a fairly loose translation of the Aramaic “Hineni.”

    And all like that.

    The new edition will be dedicated to George Zimmerman’s unborn children.

    And there’s an afterword on the book saying: If any of the facts recited in this book can be disproven by the laws of Florida or Physics, the second edition will change them in accordance with future truthiness.

  4. SearchingMind says:

    I heard a few moments ago that the State is adding Mark Osterman’s ‘Zimmerman-book’ and ‘Dr. Phil-appearance’ to the evidence list. Can anyone weigh in on this with information from reliable source(s)?

    • PYorck says:

      It is in the 8th Supplemental Discovery:


      • jm says:

        I read earlier that the book has been condensed. Wonder which version is going into evidence and also if Osterman eliminated any parts of the book that contradict Zimmerman’s “latest” story.

        • TruthBTold says:

          I am sure they are requesting all versions. I don’t know what this condensed version is all about, but doesn’t sound too good.

        • Would be interesting to compare the 1st edition with the 2d edition to specifically determine what is missing.

          I would not be surprised to discover that the missing stuff damages Zimmerman’s case and was removed at his or O’Mara’s request.

          The prosecution probably has both versions and continues to chortle with glee.

          • jm says:

            “I would not be surprised to discover that the missing stuff damages Zimmerman’s case and was removed at his or O’Mara’s request.”

            Wouldn’t that be obvious as witness tampering? The Zimmerman team keeps digging their credibility hole deeper and deeper from the truth.

    • Xena says:

      Yep. And Sondra Osterman has been added to the State’s list of witnesses.

      • Dennis says:

        Do you think she will testify willingly or are they going to subpoena her?

        • They will subpoena everyone on their witness list whether they are willing to testify or not.

          It’s called CYA in case they fail to show up. The judge will send the Sheriff out to find the witness and bring them in.

          Plus, the witnesses can show it to their employers or teachers to get excused absences.

  5. Malisha says:

    jm, agreed.

    Add to that the fact that Shellie’s ego is totally tied up with George right now. Shellie is the “supportive loving wifey” and that is her definition. She’s not thinking logically about being a single mother with dad in prison; she’s thinking the way little dummy button-nose thinks: “He loves his unborn children; wow, whattaguy; we’re gonna have a good life once all this is over; I’m like the ‘stand by your man’ icon for the 21st century; everybody looks up to me ’cause I’m loyal and it’s all in god’s plan; you can’t take my hubby-wubby away from me when I have a little babykins to take care of!”

    If necessary we will be treated to terrible pictures and horrible stories of Shellie carrying the little bundle of joy into the prison visiting room while George says platitudes that Sherry and other hangers-on repeat to the Skinhead Press Online. More likely, the escape of George Zimmerman will be done so that he can protect his newborn from the dangerous Black Panthers who blah blah blah blah…

    • jm says:

      I think it is a prerequisite to not think for yourself and stand by your man for Shellie to survive a marriage to George. Not sure if it is a southern thing or maybe just Shellie has a lack of self-esteem. Then again maybe Shellie is just not very smart.

      Shellie reminds me of Mark Osterman’s wife who nodded in agreement while Mark talked on Dr. Phil show about Zimmerman’s story, even though by now she should know there are discrepancies and a good reason why George Zimmerman is charged with 2nd degree murder.

      I wonder if they (SZ and SO) ever privately question the holes, lies and changes in the Zimmerman story of what happened on the night Trayvon was shot and killed, especially when there are so many blogs like this one pointing out the discrepancies/lies in the story.

      • Xena says:

        I wonder if they (SZ and SO) ever privately question the holes, lies and changes in the Zimmerman story of what happened on the night Trayvon was shot and killed, especially when there are so many blogs like this one pointing out the discrepancies/lies in the story.

        If they are like GZ’s fans, they concentrate more on denigrating Trayvon, his parents, DeeDee, Rev. Sharpton, the NAACP, President Obama, AG Holder, Attorney Crump and his partners, and everyone in attendance at the DNC, rather than GZ’s discrepancies and misrepresentations.

        • jm says:

          “If they are like GZ’s fans, they concentrate more on denigrating Trayvon, his parents, DeeDee, Rev. Sharpton, the NAACP, President Obama, AG Holder, Attorney Crump and his partners, and everyone in attendance at the DNC, rather than GZ’s discrepancies and misrepresentations.”

          It might be okay if you are just a supporter/fan of GZ to focus on anybody but GZ, but If GZ could kill an innocent teen he “imagined” was a suspicious burglar and create a whole fantasy story about how it happened, he could kill Shellie as well. I would never trust a lying psycho killer if I were Shellie.

      • Dennis says:


        I have not seen one Zimmerman supporter admit that his story of what happened is full of lies and contradictions. The reason is obvious, if they admit that his story is a lie, it confirms they are morons for believing his story.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Well, according to my timeline so far, it took TM only 16 minutes to walk to the store from home. He walked back unimpeded to the mailboxes area, and that took about 2 minutes less, so he gets there at about 6:42:19 approx. mailboxes: ~3452 feet from 711 @ 4.4ft/sec. 13min.

          While Tchoupi has GZ coming down RVC west at about 6:45 or so. Too late to catch TM coming past FT’s place, since he’d already be sheltering at the mailboxes for some 3 minutes. Meaning that GZ made up that stuff about being on his way to the store.

          If GZ was on his way to the store, he’d have seen nothing along the way, he’d have then gone straight out the front gate to the store. Instead, he “patrols” back and forth until he spots TM by the mailboxes, then he positions his truck to keep him in sight.
          No attempt to go out the front gate, even when he has sighted no one at all.

          • Have you considered that he might have taken Long Oak Way to Twin Trees Lane on his way to the front gate and he saw TM standing under the roof at the mailboxes as he drove W/B toward it on TTL?

            Maybe, he just pulled in and parked at the clubhouse and called 311?

            Just a thought.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            “Have you considered that he might have taken Long Oak Way to Twin Trees Lane on his way to the front gate and he saw TM standing under the roof at the mailboxes as he drove W/B toward it on TTL? Maybe, he just pulled in and parked at the clubhouse and called 311? Just a thought.”

            Yes I thought of that. Only reason I rejected it is, it doesn’t provide him with much utility, unless he has someone watching TM, so that he already knows where to find him. (I’m struggling to stay away from “conspiracy theories”, so I’m making as much use of “loner” theories as I can.

            My preferred route is: GZ leaves home, quickly rides over to RVC east, from where he can view RVC east, the back gate and have a quick look up the dog path, before turning onto and going up TTL to the front gate. Unfortunately my preferred route isn’t supported by Tchoupi’s cctv analysis. So, as much as I don’t want to, I have to reject my own preferred route too.

            Tchoupi’s cctv analysis, appears to show that GZ did come down RVC west. But, he came down too late to catch TM entering there via the cut through. If the analysis is correct, then GZ appears approx. 2 to 3 minutes to late, with TM already sheltering at the mailboxes.

            (also see my deduced timeline, link in right margin)

            This explains what Tchoupi’s analysis shows next. GZ cruises slowly past the clubhouse all the way over to TTL and doesn’t see TM at the mailboxes yet. So he cruises back west on RVC north (in front of the club house) turns and as he starts back, he spots TM at the mailboxes and he then drives over to take up a position where he can keep an eye on TM at the mailboxes.

            [note that even though GZ sees no one on his first pass, he doesn’t turn to go out the front gate, as he would if going to the store, instead he turns back and retraces, as if looking for someone he expects to find.]

            After leaving the mailbox area, TM could have gone up TTL, but then he could be followed by car. So, he decided to “run from the back”, by which he means to go down the dog path that runs behind the houses. The car couldn’t follow him there, so he thought his lead and speed advantage would make him better able to “disappear” and likely “the crazy guy” would just give up and not follow.

            I too, thought that Trayvon was on unfamiliar ground, but I learned that was not the case. He had visited here with his father many times and even played football with other neighborhood kids.

            That’s probably where he learned to use the short cuts and cut through(s), since all the kids know and use them all the time. So there’s nothing suspicious about TM being seen in the cut through if he was. But GZ seems to have, as I said, gotten there to late to observe what he claims by FT’s place.

            The reason for me choosing the path TM takes through the apartments to the west of RATL, is because, as he’s walking home, the rain is gradually increasing in intensity. So, I think he’d want to stay close to awnings to shelter under. If so, he’d choose to come through by Frank Taaffe’s, rather than the northern cut through, because FT’s cut through is closer to the clubhouse walkway, which, of course, leads to the mailbox shelter. Also, someone else mentioned on Bcclist.com that there might also have been trellises he could have sheltered under along that route. I don’t see them, but I have an additional reason for him going by the apartments. It occurs to me, he’s told DD about the rain. So he wants to assure her that he’s not going to get soaked. So he mentions the apartments because he can shelter there. I think she didn’t understand what he meant, that the apartments were a different place from the mailboxes.

            She doesn’t understand what “apartments” might mean to the story, she thinks they may have something to do with the mailbox shelter where he stayed for about 12 minutes talking to her. But she dutifully reports the word she heard him use.
            She would not know that there are apartments along TM’s route home, if he hadn’t told her. There are no apartments in RATL.
            But there are to the west, and he could have found shelter there if he chose.

            I think that if GZ hadn’t spooked him, he’d have walked up
            TTL, in front of the houses, and used a southern cut through between the last two blocks of houses. He probably came out that way too. So, taking the northern crosswalk to the T, was clearly an evasive maneuver/route.

            I think TM tried to be “cool” by walking as far as he could, before his fear got the better of him and he ran full out, with everything he had and got winded real quick. Out of breath, all he could do was try to hide. In the quiet night air, he could probably hear the car door slam, if so, he’d figure GZ was pursuing him on foot.

            This is where I depart from what others are thinking. I think TM peeked and tried to keep an eye on the north crosswalk, where he expected GZ to appear, following the way he had come. But GZ instead, came up TTL, after all, he never did tell the dispatcher where he was, or where he was going. He thought TM was headed for the back gate, so he planned to beat him there. Using a southern cut through would allow him to come up behind a TM looking south. But this area needs a lot more work and is unlikely, since it cannot explain the stuff left at the T.
            I’ll probably have to reject it too.

            Anyway. Let me know what you think.

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            @Aussie: Yeah, it continues to strike me. Notifying GZ is nothing wrong. There’s no criminality or anything bad about the notice, so why wouldn’t that person step forward? Why do they continue to hide, knowing that GZ needs all the help he can get to prove he didn’t profile? Yet, whomever it was is leaving GZ “hanging out to dry”.

      • Xena says:


        I have not seen one Zimmerman supporter admit that his story of what happened is full of lies and contradictions. The reason is obvious, if they admit that his story is a lie, it confirms they are morons for believing his story.

        They have the perfect, default excuse for GZ; i.e., no one would be able to remember everything after having their head beaten on concrete by a thug.

        I suppose having your head beaten on concrete by a non-thug has different results, and that is why they are killing themselves on the thugification of Trayvon Martin. If he’s not a thug and bounced GZ’s head on concrete, that might infer that Trayvon actually had the right to protect himself.

      • Xena says:


        I would never trust a lying psycho killer if I were Shellie.

        Maybe that is why Osterman said Shellie called him to say that GZ shot someone ELSE.

      • aussie says:

        Frederick, at bcclist we discarded the Long Oaks/TTL route to the gate ages ago, and posited the RVC route and first noticing Trayvon near Taaffe’s house. Long before we knew it was Taaffe’s house. Why? because someone coming in the shortcut might be instantly suspect. Someone caught for a 1/2 second glimpse at the mailboxes would not be, even for someone paranoid.

        The other possibility was that GZ had left the gate, seen TM outside and returned to watch. This looked less likely on his own, but more likely someone ELSE may have seen TM and tipped off GZ. Initially we thought Taaffe, but with the emergence of the M&I bank video it became more likely MO, which also explains his almost immediate presence at the scene afterwards.

        Besides GZ can’t drive on Long Oaks, he doesn’t know the name. 😉

  6. Malisha says:

    The thing about a trial, any trial, is that the defense is really taking a chance if they go to trial. O’Mara would face a substantial risk of conviction. And I use the word “substantial” very loosely. In the Anthony case, in the OJ Simpson case, there was no choice for the defense counsel, they HAD to go to trial. But Zimmerman is in a totally different situation here, because (IMHO) although the public view of things is given to believe that the prosecution very much demands a serious charge and a long prison term, they may be faking. I personally believe they have enough evidence to feel pretty confident about a conviction, but I also believe that they do not really want to bring out their big guns, because if they do, there will be NO WAY to save the Sanford Police Department from at least some damage from the Feds for letting their own racism and their own corruption dominate this case for months while the public went all out to force them to operate as if they were part of the “Justice Department” of a Democracy.

    Personally, I believe Corey would like to see a plea bargain and I think the fact that BOTH prosecution and defense opposed making the initial evidence open to the public and press supports this theory.

    The problem with a plea bargain, strangely enough, is not O’Mara or Corey but Zimmerman himself. Now that he has made a martyr and a hero out of himself in his crazy mind’s distorted eye, he will probably be emotionally unable to accept a plea and PHYSICALLY UNABLE to elocute in open court. OMG. I can just imagine it. I’m FOTFLMAO.

    The trick might be to let him wait for a trial long enough to have Shellie give birth to one or more of those unborn children he already loves (as per Hannity Interview) and do so much media manipulation that finally the “killing” or “shooting” or “alleged murder” of Trayvon Martin moves down step by step through “altercation” to “confrontation” to “disagreement” to “unpleasantness” to “something needing closure” and when it’s there, and George Zimmerman is 49 years old, and his kids have all had their graduation parties (although they never attended school anywhere because of death threats), George will plead to “disorderly conduct” but it will be mitigated by “rain and disparate races” and he will serve another three days in the county jail while being visited by many born-again preachers who will pray with him.

    By then, there will BE no federal Department of Justice anyway; it was a waste of tax dollars to start with, and in the big economic downturn of 2013, it had to be disbanded so we could all tighten our belts.

    • aussie says:

      Shellie has a BIT of sense, deep down. She DOES NOT WANT CHILDREN WITH GZ, he complained to the ex-girlfriend about it, remember?

      Certainly not now, with the prospect of bringing them up as a single mother with their dad in prison.

      • rachael says:

        I was just going to say that about why he re-saw his ex-girlfriend. LOL

        Of course, that could have just been another one of his lies to get her to see him. I seriously doubt his lying is isolated to this case. I’m sure it is a part of his everyday life.

      • jm says:

        I don’t see Shellie with a bit of sense.

        I think she will do what it takes to keep GZ out of jail, just like she did when she set herself up for perjury charges. Maybe a Zimmerman child could be a money-maker for her. If GZ is sent to prison, Shellie sets up a website and appeals to the same people who contributed to GZ’s defense/living expenses for money for his child since she can’t work because she fears for her life.

        My feeling is you can’t be married to George Zimmerman and have sense.

      • aussie says:

        I disagree, JM. With the perjury, she was helping hold on to substantial money she was probably to share in when they ran away. So a direct personal benefit to herself, not just to GZ.

        Sondra said Shellie bawled her eyes out when she first heard the 911 tape with the screams. I think she knows. She’s maybe not ready to face it yet what she knows. But I don’t think she’d want to dig herself in deeper with adding a kid to the mix. Doesn’t matter how conned someone is, sooner or later the scales fall off their eyes.

    • Dennis says:

      I feel there is more than enough evidence and testimony to seal Zimmerman’s fate. There isn’t a death penalty for 2nd degree murder so I will settle for life in prison. I do not want to see this pile of crap ever get out of prison. Zimmerman somehow believes he can beat his murder charge, I doubt he will accept any plea bargains.

    • roderick2012 says:

      @ Malisha

      Isn’t the Justice Department conducting its own seperate investigation in the Sanford Police Department?

      I believe that the investigation has gone low key due to presidential politics ( although Obama can win the White House without Florida he would like to make Florida competitive so that Romney has to spend time and money here).

      I am still puzzled as to why the state was the one to announce that the FBI didn’t find evidence that Zimmerman was a racist.

      As for Corey I doubt that she wants a plea bargain because she has been trashed in the media by many commentators especially that clown Alan Dershowitz.

      If his claim is true that Corey contacted Harvard and went on a 40 minute rant I doubt that she will allow Bernie to agree to a plea deal with O’Mara.

      Corey is the same prosecutor who wants a then-12 year/old boy charged as an adult because he smashed the head of his then 2 year-old brother into a bookcase after he sexually assaulted him this after 190K persons petitioned Corey to try Cristian Fernandez as a juvenille.

      Somehow I don’t believe that Zimmerman will get any mercy from Corey’s office.

      • TruthBTold says:

        Yes, I lost a lot of respect for Alan Dershowitz. It seemed personal the way he was behaving and it was very unprofessional and misguided.

        Professor can you please delete my other two incomplete postings. I kept accidentally pressing the post comment. I’m on my phone. Thank you.

        • IMO, Professor Dershowitz disappeared over the hill many years ago and he would be well advised to undergo a surgical procedure to place a zipper on his mouth.

          • What I find so very funny is that Allen D. was talking all kinds of trash about the prosecution team in Florida, especially Angela Corey. The racist of course, quickly jumped on that saying that he was absolutely correct, and that he is a very intelligent man who knows his stuff yada, yada, yada, and I said, “Oh, did you know that he was one of the Appellet Lawyers for OJ Simpson and he also defended OJ Simpson very vigoruously in the media? He also defended Mike Tyson as well.” I didn’t hear any more about the wonderful virtues of Allen D.

          • Brown says:

            : ^ )))

          • TruthBTold says:

            Professor you are hilarious. Professor Dershowitz is considered one of the greatest legal minds from my understanding. Highly regarded? In order to preserve his legacy, he may need to tone it down and take your advice lol.

  7. thejbmission says:

    Another informative article, especially for someone like myself who’s new to law book terminology. I can always depend on you to explain in a way that I understand. Thank you so much. I feel like I’m in mini-law school.
    You said:

    For all of these reasons, I recommend using a poll to select the venue, non-sequestration of the jury, and the use of questionnaires with individual voir dire to select the jury.

    I agree with your method of jury selection except for non-sequestration. Do you think its possible that the panel of jurors could be trusted to go home and not read, not discuss and stay away from computers and television during the trial? I’d hate for GZ to have grounds for an appeal post conviction.
    Has this ever worked out well for the defense in a high profile case? I’m sure you’ve experienced this situation in your career before as a defense attorney. I’m just curious as to how this works out.

  8. JUN says:


    I do not know how credible this source is though

  9. JUN says:

    How are they going to find jurors? It seems kind of impossible in this case. How would they find out if a juror is simply putting on a facade for the court?

    There are actually people out there who feel the kid does not have any rights (probably for racist reasons). I see them post their opinions and hear them as well. There was a fire fighter in the news who stated that the kid deserved it. Obviously they are bias, and they could simply fake being impartial.

    • rachael says:

      Yes, someone could try to fake it, but that could go for one side just as easily as the other. Anyway, choosing a juror is not an easy thing. Perhaps they will have jury consultants as explained here:


      • JUN says:

        That is true… I am not really worried about most people, as I feel they can be impartial and follow the law. The Zimmernut folks are scary how violent, vile, and racist they are though.

      • Rachael says:

        I understand and am worried about the same but there is nothing foolproof and there atr no guarantees no matter what so at some point I have to let go and trust because there just is no way to well, you know.

  10. It would be a lot cheaper to bring 9 jurors (6+3) to Seminole County, house, feed them and throw in a few bucks for jury duty than to move everything to another county. To move the trial to another county would include, moving all the evidence, housing the attorneys, deputies, court clerks, stenos, rent of a courthouse, security, etc etc etc. It would add up to way more than sequestering 9 people in Seminole County.

  11. Dennis says:

    In the Anthony case, one juror had a cruise booked for I believe July the 5th. It was obvious at the end of the case that they just wanted to go home. Nobody wants to be dragged out of their personal life to live in a cheap motel for 6 months or longer. The Anthony trial should have been a mistrial due to juror misconduct. Two of the jurors that voted guilty were bullied and harassed by other jurors into changing their vote to not-guilty. Instead of going with the actual evidence, they decided to believe fantasy scenarios of a pool drowning and molestation. Not quite sure how those jurors sleep at night.

    • Dennis~~Pinellas County will go down in the annals as, where they picked THOSE &^%^$ jurors. Didn’t one juror want to take his granny to a ball game and Judge Perry promised to get him the tickets?

    • JUN says:

      Even if they were to believe the drowning story…. how did they explain the body being where it was? Why did the baby have tape over her mouth?

      Personally, I feel they can motion to set aside judgement based on jury misconduct.


      If that is true of the jury, than the decision is based on fraud.

      Not sure though, but that is what was what I found on google searching…

      I do not know much of the Casey Anthony case and do not know all the details

    • Dennis says:


      I am absolutely clueless as to why Jose Baez was able to preach to the jury that Casey was molested by George and that the baby died in a pool drowning, when there is not one shred of evidence to support either scenario. The defense brainwashed the jury with fictional nonsense and they bought every bit of it.

      • jm says:

        From what I have read, the jury “liked” Jose Baez and therefore believed his story. I also read Jose Baez was in touch with social media and concluded the public did not like or believe George Anthony so went to attack George Anthony.

        These are things that make me not trust the jury system as it stands.

  12. Vicky says:

    Professor, re your comment at 8:25. I couldn’t agree more. I worked as a CINC coordinator in a juvenile detention facility back in the 90s and had the opportunity to work with youth associated with the Crips, Bloods and the BGDs. Their primary focus was definitely not on petty residential crime in a moderate income neighborhood. Well, at least not unless there was product of significant value to be secured. And they would have never gone solo to get the job done. LOL
    I learned a great deal from gang affiliated young people and managed to established a relationship of mutual respect with a few. If you ask me, George Zimmerman’s turf issues were far more indicative of a gangster mentality than Trayvon’s possible self defense maneuvers.

    • ed nelson says:

      Hi Vicky,

      [“Zimmerman’s turf issues were far more indicative of a gangster mentality than Trayvon’s possible self defense maneuvers.”]

      I liked your comment, and so here is my little response:

      I guess I ain’t sure what is going on, and I dont have that much of a horse in this race, too bad that a nice looking black kid got killed, I don’t abide with that!!

      Now let me put this little deal in there: I don’t think it will do any good to… put this little guy on the spit… he ain’t nobody really, only just a little stupid jackass, Got a hair up his… and went out on a trip… bad one, for him and everbody.

      But, This is a type of thing where that there is some kind of statement/Lesson/exemplar… and what that is, is…

      Well… I guess it boils down to: peeps don’t matter… folks ain’t so much of a bother, cause well… all that about what they said about … like and all that, well, “honey chille… not happening much any more!… !

      • ed nelson says:

        Hell, I don’t know what the hell I was sayin’ there, so so sorry, I think I had some kind of sort of an… Idea… well…. it sure wasn’t too clear, after I reread that on… anyways, I don’t think much of bastards that go out and kill teenage kids, and all that!

  13. Malisha~~with all due respect, this case is just in the beginning stages. Give it some time and sit back and watch. The jury will not be privy to all the info we have read and viewed. There is so much that will not be admissible. I have yet to see any authentic proof of Z calling anyone F**** punks or coons. I heard him use the word a**holes. I am quite certain the unredacted 911 call to NEN will be admissable as well as some of the ear/eye witness 911 calls.

    I doubt if this case will go to trial before 2014. JMO

    • Malisha says:

      Well I actually believe it will never go to trial, but will be a plea bargain OR an escape (as in Unlawful Flight to Avoid Prosecution) if O’Mara can’t convince George to plead. I actually have heard “fucking punks” on the tape to NEN, but that is not the most important piece of the puzzle. I think ill will is going to be provable if there is a trial. “These assholes, they always get away” is probably enough of an indication of ill will even without the extra exclamation. George has actually admitted calling Martin “Fucking punk.” He admitted that to Serino.

      But still, I don’t expect a full trial. I expect a lot of machinations and manipulations and then a plea bargain, and then I expect the feds to close their investigation as “moot” or some cop-out like that. There have been casualties within the SPD and there may even be more.

      Such a dirty deal. So obvious that it was a cover-up gone wrong.

      • I just do not think the state will accept a plea on this. Gz would have to say I’m guilty of manslaughter and not the higher charge right? IMO after the state of Florida was shown world wide in such an unfavorable light; they have a case and plan to prove it. They would not risk being shown as more incompetent by risking over charging,IMO.

      • jun says:

        I say if Zimmerman wants a plea deal… Give him 40 years for Murder 2 & call it a day. Then fine him for causing so much drama for everyone.

  14. Malisha says:

    mainstreamfair, the two cases are not comparable. We start off in the Zimmerman case with Zimmerman admitting that he physically killed Martin. Also, there is evidence that he deliberately followed Martin, while expressing ill-will towards him (“asshole; fucking punk”). The only thing that is still in doubt is whether or not Zimmerman can claim a REASON for his having killed Martin, and the only reason he can possibly use now that he has promulgated a story over and over is: self-defense. So either he was viciously attacked (which still doesn’t prove self-defense because he caused the confrontation himself and he was admittedly and undeniably the aggressor) or not. That is an issue that cannot be ignored, and that is a question that is not terribly confusing. Belief in 100% of George’s story will not even necessarily lead to a conclusion that it was a self-defense killing because even if George WAS in fear for his life, he was not REASONABLY in fear for his life. Thus, no matter how many side issues are introduced, there is a certain stubborn clarity to the Zimmerman case that the Anthony case never had.

  15. * It is a given that one cannot proofread their own work… omg forgive all the typos etc

  16. Fred~~I was engrossed with the Anthony case and made my first debut as a blogger. It was quite a learning experience because it was the first time I could read actual legal documents of a case plus watch all the hearings etc thank to the Sunshine Law.

    Cheney Mason joined the defense team and his philosophy was… “make it into a three-ring-circus and let the juror figure it out .” He was true to his word.

    I fault Judge Perry, in the way the jury was picked, and also the overcharge of Murder One for the verdict coming back as not guilty.

    I have a feeling that the Zimmerman case will surpass the Anthony case for being circuslike. I cannot see a jury bringing back a unnamious decision if this goes to trial. I would rather not tell you why I feel this way to avoid any controversy.

    • MSF, your first paragraph describes me. And, to think of the 3 long years waiting….

      Baez won’t be around Zimmerman, and O’Mara’s a smarter attorney than Baez. Btw, how the hell did Baez avoid getting disbarred….still shaking head @ his incompetency. We learned so much law by Judge Perry teaching Baez as the trial progressed :).

      • hinkster4ever~~how very true. Judge Perry was supposed to deal with José after the trial. Looks at Laura Buchanan and the PI, Mort Smith falsifying the TES documents and along with Cindy not being charged with perjury and tampering with evidence, it was all swept under the rug. The state wanted to see the end of Casey and the JAC didn’t want Baez spending his money.

        I am anxious to see Judge Debra Nelson in action. I have no idea when that will be but hopefully next month.

      • thejbmission says:

        Because it was all lies just like the rest of the Anthony case. The right thing happened. Casey was acquitted due to lack of evidence and overkill in the indictment.
        Jose Baez did an excellent job! As for his lawyering skills, I’m just happy he’s not defending GZ.

    • Lonnie Starr says:

      In order to make this case a “circus”, there needs to be a fairly large dollop of controversy. That controversy, can only be created by GZ having the credibility to take the stand in his defense. Since he’s jettisoned his own credibility on the alter of hording cash, there’s going to be very little controversy to build a circus around.

      GZ’s only defense left is self defense, and that depends largely, on a fight that never happened, isn’t in evidence except at GZ’s own word. TM going for GZ’s gun is a lost issue, since GZ brought the gun to the incident. He’s not going to be able to use that as a reason for killing, if I understand the law.

      After the jury sees the gun, the holster and where it was located, as well as the positions of their bodies in the “supposed fight/struggle” they’re not going consider it controversial, that Trayvon Martin never knew or saw GZ’s gun, until he drew and brandished it.

      In fact, there is no major point around which MOM can build any controversy, which is why he’s looking to Trayvon’s school records for billable hours and to mark time until the trial begins. He knows that everything he puts up, is going to be knocked down quickly, either by evidence, testimony and GZ’s lack of credibility.

      Once the sheer stupidity of GZ’s actions is understood by the jury, there will be nothing they can’t put past him, absolutely nothing at all. After being arrested for murder 2, there are many things GZ should have been concerned about, money was not one of them.

  17. bettykath says:

    I can see that reasons 1, 6, and 7 would be a reason for a change of venue or for a poll or whatever in order to get an appropriate jury. Why do you include the other reasons?

  18. Escambia looks like a good county. The jurors would get to have a long bus ride into Seminole. They only need 6 jurors and about 3 alternates. At least they don’t have to pick a death qualified jury. During the Anthony case, one potential juror told Judge Perry that she could not sit in judgement of anyone. She ended up on the jury.

  19. Here is a map of Florida. Pick a county and launch the player and you can give a little listen.


  20. I don’t think O’Mara will have any problem if he files a motion for a change of venue. The judge gets to pick the county. Let’s just hope it is not Pinellas. Those people like fancy desserts and nice movies but they hate to be sequestered. A jury would almost have to be sequestered in this case with all the media hounds.

  21. Lonnie Starr says:

    If it’s any help, we still have people who don’t know who the President of the U.S. is yet.

  22. raiikun says:

    O’Mara has said he’s fine with it staying in Seminole County so this is probably all moot.

    • Sounds like he believes there are not very many Black people in Seminole County and a lot of racist Whites.

      • raiikun says:

        Heh, 81.6% white, 11.7% black in Seminole County.

      • Malisha says:

        EXACTLY. And he’s right.

      • right on.. exactly professor…. Seminole County extremely bias…

      • jun says:

        Wouldnt the racist white want to also screw Zimmerman? Even though Zimmerman is a dumb ass redneck, a racist white person still considers him hispanic, hence, they’d want to lock his dumb ass up.

      • Dennis says:


        I agree. A racist white person most likely believes that Hispanics are coming to our country and taking our jobs. O’Mara better think twice about letting white racists onto the jury, because they might fry Zimmerman quickly.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Yes, that’s where Zimmerman goofed big time. He should have kept his mouth shut and let them keep calling him a racist. That’s exactly what the racists wanted to hear, because they too believed he was white, as did the SPD people. Once he said “I’m proud of my Hispanic Heritage”, the donations slowed to a trickle. It’s a wonder they haven’t stopped. I guess many still haven’t heard how proud he is of his Hispanic heritage. Now MOM can’t unring that bell, no matter how much they wish that they could. The white supremacists were shocked!

          • You should hear him on Youtube speaking in Spanish and stating all kinds of BS and how he thanks all of his supporters. (I speak Spanish too). When he stated that, I knew that immediately, the white racists would turn on him. Not all of them, but most would. Then he has his stupid idiot friend Mark Osterman out here saying, that George had so many black friends, and how much they all loved him. Where are these black friends now?

            Anyway posters have any of you heard the latest tape by LLMPapa on Youtube comparing the screams of TM to GZ’s? I had no idea that George Idiot submitted to the cops, and demonstrated to them in the very begining how he sounds when he screams! I was like WTF? Why did he submit to that? Is he really that crazy?

            GZ knows damn well that is not him screaming and only an idiot racist in denial can deny that his voice and Trayvons sound absolutely nothing alike! He voice even when he is screaming, is very low and not loud at all. He struggles and strains when he screams! Even though I knew from the day Adam was created by God, that, that was TM screaming, begging, in panic mode, hysterical, straining to get away and break the grip that GZ had on his hoodie, crying out to Jeremy or whoever who saw him and then went back insdie their house. Then their is that sadistic, enraged madman GZ in the backround tormenting and torturing that boy for an answer he was never going to receive in a million years. Please check this video out everyone!

          • jm says:

            I saw the video and heard Zimmerman reenact yelling for help and it is not even close.

            I wondered if Zimmerman thought by cooperating with police and his “connections” he thought he could get over on everyone without anyone taking a closer look at the crime.

            From the Hannity interview where he changed Trayvon running as he reported to dispatcher on 02/26 to skipping and he smirked several times during the interview, I do believe Zimmerman thinks he is smarter than he is.

          • GZ is truly delusional. He doesn’t sound anything close to the screams that are recorded on the 911 calls and he knows it! How does he think he is smarter than anyone else? It is absolutely obvious that it is not him yelling “Help me!’ and all of his “friends” his brother Robert, Joe Oliver, his dad, Mark O and his wife, stated it was him, knowing it wasn’t him! I

            just had a thought. It he ever was in trouble and had a gun on him, no one would hear him and even if he staged it to scream, he wouldn’t be heard over the terrifying screams of TM! His voice is so faint and it breaks in between “Help..Me! Help..Me!” Almost like he is stuttering! He doesn’t have the deep baritone that say, my dad has or my brothers or even my own son does at 17. Who does he think he is fooling??? This man is extremely disturbed, irrational, impulisve and it is just plain sad that he never got the real help that he truly needs. He needs to locked away for the rest of his sorry life! Take a plea George because you are finished!

          • jm says:

            “How does he think he is smarter than anyone else?”

            My theory on how Zimmerman thinks he is smarter than anyone else is because he has surrounded himself with stupid people all his life, including but not limited to Shellie, the Osterman’s and Frank Taaffe.

            According to Osterman, Zimmerman was estranged from his family prior to the killing and they probably never called him out on stupid stuff he did, just avoided him.

            Then you have the Zimmerman supporters (for example the conservative treehouse) who I believe are dumber than Zimmerman for the mere fact they believe him and make excuses for him, blaming the victim, and never questioning the holes in his stories.

            So now Zimmerman has finally met up with some intelligent people who aren’t going to give him a pass and hopefully can put him in prison.

            I think Zimmerman is a sociopath. His lack of remorse and the brazen lies he tells are disgusting.

          • It is absolutely disgusting! His brazen lies, his lack of remorse….requesting a note from the Dr. so he could resume his “normal life” and go to work in the AM?? You just murdered someone you want to go to work as if this catastrophe never happened? You show no sign of being traumatized by taking the life of a teenage boy? One who was pleading and begging you not to shoot him? SMH.

            I went on line and dusted off of Nursing books to read up on this disorder. Do these symptoms look familiar:

            not learning from experience
            no sense of responsibility
            inability to form meaningful relationships
            inability to control impulses
            lack of moral sense
            chronically antisocial behavior
            no change in behavior after punishment
            emotional immaturity
            lack of guilt

            People with this disorder may exhibit criminal behavior. They perhaps do not work. If they do work, they are frequently absent or may quit suddenly. They do not consider other people’s wishes, welfare or rights. They can be manipulative and may lie to gain personal pleasure or profit. They may default on loans, fail to provide child support, or fail to care for their dependents adequately. High risk sexual behavior and substance abuse are common. Impulsiveness, failure to plan ahead, aggressiveness, irritability, irresponsibility, and a reckless disregard for their own safety and the safety of others are traits of the antisocial personality.
            Socioeconomic status, gender, and genetic factors play a role. Males are more likely to be antisocial than females. Those from lower socioeconomic groups are more susceptible. A family history of the disorder puts one at higher risk.

            ::SIGH:: Unfortunately, TM was the unfortunate result of this mans sickness!

          • Lonnie Starr says:

            GZ is a lunatic if he thinks that money came from either blacks or hispanics. Maybe the emails were spoofed to make it appear that way, since that would have been something he could use to claim he’s not racist. But the only ones sending him any money would be either gun nuts and/or supremacists.

            That money was sent to help him win his case, instead it got mishandled and GZ used it to blow his credibility and sink himself deeper in. Making fools of his donors, whose money is now wasted.

            I noticed on the stress test video, he says “every time TM punched me in the nose”. That’s going to be a real gem to watch the jury listen to him at trial. Oh, that and him saying that TM put his full weight on his nose and mouth when trying to smother him. Such that TM lifted his legs up a bit, letting him get to his gun. Let’s see, full weight on one hand, covering a broken nose that’s bleeding? While the other hand is going down for a gun that’s behind TM? …And behind GZ to boot?

            It’ll be a real hoot to have the SP call in to actors, and ask GZ: “okay, now help me position them as you and TM were that night.”

            GZ: I forgot how it happened!


    • Xena says:

      The trial can be held in Seminole County, but that doesn’t mean O’Mara is fine with jury members from Seminole County. Since he already claims that GZ needs to leave Seminole County due to threats, I suspect that O’Mara will want a jury brought in from another county.

      Then again, maybe Osterman’s “Most Hated Man In America” is an argument to have the trial held in Peru.

  23. Xena says:

    O’Mara or a member of his staff issued the subpoenas pursuant to FL Rule of Civil, rather than FL Rule of Criminal Procedure.

    The State’s Response to Defendant’s Notice of Production, in pertinent part;

    8. Though the subpoenas purport to be issued pursuant to Florida Rule of Civil Procedure 1.350,
    Florida Rule of Criminal Procedure 3.220 governs discovery deposition in criminal matters. In Heath V. Becktell, 327 So. 2d 3 (Fla. 1975), the Supreme Court of Florida approved a construction of Rule 3.220 that subpoenas duces tecum are not permitted in a criminal matter without leave of court … Under such construct, the subpoenas duces tecum in the instant case should not have issued without leave of court.

    10. As it relates to subpoenas such as those already publicized, the State would argue that Defendant now cannot claim that because this case is “a high profile” case the Court should disregard the law. Under Chapter 776 of the Florida Statutes and Standard Jury Instruction 3.6(f), matters regarding Trayvon Martin’s history prior to the day he was killed are irrelevant and inadmissable. Since Defendant (according to all accounts, even his own) didn’t know Trayvon Martin, the Victim’s past including his juvenile school and other records would not be relevant to these proceedings.

  24. jm says:

    GZ can now pretend he is the “hero” he has always wanted to be and live in a short-term existence of a “good life” he has never been able to achieve in real-life – thanks to his supporters.

    I do wonder if his supporters are contributing as much as they used to now that the drama has died down even though IMO MOM is doing his best to keep it stirred up for future donations to defense funds.

  25. whonoze says:

    GZ is looking at a long jail term, maybe life in prison, so every day he walks free now goes in the plus column for him. So he waives his right to a speedy trial, and has MOM use every tactic to delay — from motions to change judges to motions to change venues to motions to install a kitchen sink in the courtroom — because it means more time hanging out with the Ostermans at the firing range instead of looking over his shoulder in the prison yard.

    • Malisha says:

      Also, I am betting money that “God’s Plan” is now for Shellie to get pregnant so there can be a little baby for her to hold in her arms at court appearances.

    • “The kichen sink?” LOL! I like that one! GZ and Mark O’Money can take this trial to Africa, Asia and Japan. I was in the Army many years ago, and I was stationed in Japan, and my friends over there and the people there have read about this case already! Mark O’Money I bet, will be trying to keep as many blacks off of the jury as he can and blacks who are black Hispanics. (As if he can tell the difference)?

      Yesterday, I was listening to the 911 tapes again, through my ear phones as I was lying down, and I didn’t have the radio or the televison on, and I could hear not only TM screaming and begging, it was so pitiful, but I heard him saying, “I don’t know… I don’t know!” and GZ interrogating him and demanding to know about the break-ins. I had heard this before, but I but was just taken aback by hearing this kid, saying that to this monster who shot him anyway. This deranged monster totally lost his mind! This psycho needs to die. When any jury hears the evidence about the bullet holes and TM screaming and begging, GZ is finished and it doesn’t matter what color or nationality they are.

      • That’s why I don’t think it’s necessary to go high tech and try to match the shriek to a voice exemplar.

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          Just wondering here: I wonder if they can match the pleading voice with the one screaming for help? Obviously GZ has no reason to plead, what could Trayvon possibly have asked him, that he’d respond, “I don’t know, I don’t know”. too?

      • Xena says:

        (blockquote> “…and GZ interrogating him and demanding to know about the break-ins.

        You know Deborah, I remember you mentioning this on another page on this blog. Around the same time on another blog, a writer said she can hear GZ in the background of that 911 call.

        Several months ago, I saved a vid and several articles reporting that Trayvon made a 911 call seconds before he was killed that captured GZ’s talking in the background. I pulled that info up and read it again. ABC later said that the reporter mis-stated — that it was a 911 call by an ear-witness where GZ’s voice is “captured.” The FBI has the tape to determine what GZ is saying to Trayvon. I repeat — what GZ is saying to Trayvon. IOWs, this is not about who is screaming for help.

        So I listened to that 911 call again and sure enough, I could hear GZ’s voice in the background just after Jeremy tells his wife to tell the dispatcher to hurry up. Even using my headphones, I’m unable to make out all of the words besides one, but it is GZ’s voice talking while Trayvon is screaming for help.

        Then, I thought about what Serino said to GZ — that a witness heard a verbal confrontation before things went to the ground. I considered that maybe Serino was bluffing, but am now thinking that Serino knew that GZ cursing at Trayvon is captured on that call.


      • Tzar says:

        it’s simply amazing that this asshole has a single defender besides his attorney

        • Lonnie Starr says:

          I’ve got a timeline up that puts TM at the mailboxes at 6:42:19 approx. [http://zimmerman-vs-martin.blogspot.com/] It doesn’t look like GZ is anywhere around at that time, or the time TM came through the cut through. It seems it would take GZ less than a minute to reach the front gate by car, so if that’s really his truck that tchoupi picks up in the cctv’s he’s there too late to see TM walking from the cut through to the mailboxes.

          If that gets established, then GZ has fabricated that part of the story as well. No surprise that will be if so, eh?

      • In addition to what you have mentioned that is on the recording, can the prosecution present police records, of other calls that GZ made to them, showing that on at least two other occasions GZ was sure that the “suspicious” black males that he was watching WERE involved in the recent break-ins….and thus showing George’s mind-set/paranoia.
        April 22, 2012: Zimmerman called to report a black male about “7-9” years old, four feet tall, with a “skinny build” and short black hair. There is no indication in the police report of the reason for Zimmerman’s suspicion of the boy.
        August 2011: Black male in tank top and shorts acting suspicious near developments back entrance. “[Complaintant] believes [subject] is involved in recent S-21’s-break-ins-in the neighborhood” the call log states. The suspect, Zimmerman told the dispatcher, fit a recent description given out by law enforcement officers.
        August 2011: (three days later) Two black teens in the same area, for some reason. “[Juveniles] are the subjs who have been [burglarizing] in the area”, he told the dispatcher.
        February 2012: Zimmerman called to report a suspicious black man in a leather jacket near one of the developement’s units. The resident of that townhouse, Zimmerman told dispatch, was a white male. Police stopped by to invesitgate, gut no one was there, and the residence was secure.
        All leading up to:
        February 26, 2012: The night he killed Trayvon Martin.

    • jun says:

      Holy toast Batman!

      If that tape is real, its gonna put more burns in the toast that is GZ’s bottomside. I am kind of dumbfounded that no one cellphone cammed the incident.

      • Xena says:

        @Jun. It’s the same 911 call with the cries for help. When that tape was released, the public had only heard GZ’s voice on the NEN call. The more familiar you are with his voice, the easier it is to hear him cursing at Trayvon in the background. I can only make out one word, but I do hear his voice.

        By the time that residents realized there was something serious going on, it was over — no time to record.

      • Tzar says:

        Xena, I swear to you that I hear Zimmerman say “keep still” and clear as anything else that can heard in the background of that audio. This POS was never, EVER in danger, he was always in control of the frail framed teenager. I am convinced he killed him because he wanted to.

        • Not only did you hear that, but you hear Trayvon saying, “I don’t know, I don’t know! Help me! Help me Mom, Help me!” You can hear GZ shouting something to the effect about the “break ins” in the neighborhood and Trayvon saying, “I don’t know!” This call was very clear, and it was caught on a cell phone which belonged to witness Jeremy and his lady who were outside because you could not catch the screams of this kid this clearly if you were indoors! I was listening to the 911 call which is on Youtube on my cell phone and I had my room completely quiet. I was brought to tears when I actually heard this boy screaming, “I don’t know!” What kind of monster would shoot a kid like this?

          These two liars need to be confronted because they didn’t say a word to the police about what they witnessed. They know that GZ was trying to detain TM and didn’t do a damn thing about it! They are most likely the only ones who can testify to witnessing this detainment because a few minutes later, TM is hot dead! The question is does Angela Corey know about these two? Has she studied the tapes that night? Do they know that it was Mark Osterman at the bank at the ATM that night? If they do, is the prosecution sitting on this evidence and has “Mark O’Money” seen it?

          • Brown says:

            Please post youtube version you are referring to

          • TruthBTold says:

            Yes, please post.

          • An Exemplar To Convict – YouTube For some reason I am lousy at posting a link, but check out LLMPapa on Youtube. He just sent this to me and it compares GZ’s screams of HELP ME to TM’s! No way does he sound like TM!

          • Trayvon Martin Case: 911 Audio Released Of Teen Shot By Neighborhood Watch Captain (AUDIO).

            You can find this on Black Voices of the Huffington Post. Also check out Youtube.Trent Sawyer has many different versions of the 911 calls and the one which Jeremy and his wife have picked up on their cell phone is the best at listening to.

  26. jun says:

    Omara can motion. Besides, where are the death threats? I will need to see proof. Omara and Zimmerbot lie so much, I want to see corroboration of their claims

    • Xena says:

      Well Jun, before the New Black Panthers placed a bounty on Zim for his capture, Osterman said GZ hid in his house because of the New Black Panthers. Before GZ was arrested and appeared at a hearing that was televised, the public only had GZ’s 2005 mugshot showing his physical appearance. However, Osterman says that GZ hid in his house because he was afraid of retaliation.

      That gives me the impression that whomever it is that GZ is hiding and receiving death threats from, is someone he knows and was afraid of before he killed Trayvon.

      • I think the whole death threat thing is bogus. I do not believe there were any credible death threats.

      • Vicky says:

        Xena, according to Osterman, the Zimmermans went to stay at his house because his LE experience had taught him that when an individual is shot and killed (you know, a black gangsta thug) his family and friends will seek “street justice” (hmm, isn’t that what GZ did?) so he felt it best the Zims hide out at his house. He says he had Shellie pack bags for both of them that night, before they went to the police station. How he could have arrived at the conclusion that GZ’s life was in danger based upon his limited knowledge of the facts at that time, can only be attributed to racial profiling on his part. IMO

    • jm says:

      Sometimes I wonder if the “death threats” are part of an MOM plan to raise funds.

    • PYorck says:

      On the web death threats are a dime a dozen. Whether there were any credible ones is a different question.

    • Xena says:

      I think the whole death threat thing is bogus and don’t believe a word of it.

      It does seem that way. Rather odd that GZ would fear retaliation from the night he killed Trayvon since he didn’t have a clue who Trayvon was nor where he lived. Maybe GZ is simply paranoid.

      • jun says:

        Call it a hunch but gangbangers dont usually walk home unarmed with skittles and ice tea and a cell phone filled with heart stickers, nor do they dress like Trayvon…

        Its a kid walking home…

    • bettykath says:

      GZ thought he had killed a thug. Thugs have thugish friends.

      The SPD knew of a gang that wore (black?) hoodies. GZ may have known that as well, if not before he killed Trayvon, the SPD may have said something to him that night. Their reputation is that they do retaliate. That may be what GZ and MO were concerned about.

      Again, not the reality of an unarmed visiting high school student, but of a suspicious, drug induced, f…. punk, and an a…ho…who always gets away. It wasn’t until the next day at least that Serino told him about a good kid who had hopes and dreams of a college education and a career in aviation.

      • I’ve represented Crips and Bloods, real gang bangers from LA with whom I got along just fine.

        They would not have been interested in casing a residential neighborhood looking for a place to break into to steal somebody’s stuff. Real gangsters don’t do that. It’s beneath their dignity. Stupid teenagers do that stuff.

        Besides, this was a cold and rainy Sunday night @ 7 pm when most people are home. No burglar is going to waste his time looking for a place to break into at that time.

        I can’t even imagine why Zimmerman thought TM was anything other than a resident or guest of a resident.

        The police should have realized that and checked every residence in the neighborhood for a missing person.

        Astonishing incompetence.

        Martin was an outsider. Hardly anyone in the area knew him. No one in the area knew him well enough to have personal vendetta to kill Zimmerman.

        That’s why I can only laugh at his claim that he’s in danger.

        His parent’s fear is ludicrous.

        Good grief! These people are nuts.

      • bettykath says:

        I agree. GZ was operating on fiction based on his ignorance, imagination, and his need to be recognized as a hero. Reality was not a factor. He profiled TM as a thug and a possible gang member and his paranoia took over, probably with some help from his bff who also want to be a hero.

      • Lonnie Starr says:

        Of course, that would have to mean that GZ never saw an actual thug in his life, not even on one of his tours of the police station.
        Often one can tell just how thuggish or not a person is, on their first meeting, by what they say and how they handle themselves.

        I get the distinct impression that, upon capturing Trayvon and questioning him, GZ knew, almost immediately, that Trayvon just didn’t act threatening or even rough enough to be a thug. But, instead acted childishly childlike and scared. So childish, in fact, that it shook GZ out of his hero stupor and into a “what have I done”, mode of thinking.

        At that point in time, if it were so, he’d be struggling mightily to assess what the police would see when they arrived. Because isn’t that supposedly the whole point of what GZ is doing?

        Once he realizes he’s only caught a “baby” so to speak, he has to realize that the police aren’t going to favor him with hero status. The longer the police question TM, the more innocent and helpless he’s going to look, and therefore, the worst GZ is going to look. It doesn’t take more than a few seconds for GZ to conclude that he’s going to be a big time loser in this, if the police get to hear TM speak and act and tell his side of what happened.

        But, GZ is incredibly stupid, so stupid that it is actually painful!
        He thinks he understand SYG and SD, and he thinks he can use that to escape. what would probably have been a few years in jail.
        So, he’s boxed in, he thinks he sees a way out, after all, it will be his friends who will be doing the investigating, so all he has to do is give them something to hang their hats on. So, in GZ’s mind, that tips the scales. “You’re gonna die tonight”, is exactly the kind of thought that would be resonating inside GZ head, as he cowardly makes up his mind to try to escape his mistakes by compounding the charges.

        Obviously, these are all very small minded people around him, they never envisioned anything that happened in Sanford, becoming a national interest. They all thought that “of course the family will whine for a while”, but that would be as far as it would go. They’d simply turn a deaf ear to the whining and it would eventually go away, like everything else they’ve done.

        After all, even as this case hold the nations attention, there are other cases, underway, that have not gained the national spotlight in this way. At least not yet.

    • jd says:

      I agree. At one point weeks ago, O’Mara was speaking to reporters outside his office and he likes to do after hearings and began speaking once again about “death threats” and pretty much you could read between the lines that they don’t have a single shred of hard evidence of a credible death threat to anyone on the defendant’s side of the case. He spoke about a threatening phone call his secretary took but admits it was not recorded, saying that they gave a “report” about the incident to the local police.

      The so called New Black Panthers are clowns, and the real (former) Panthers disavow them as agents-provacteurs they do such damage to the causes they get involved in. Apparently at the time of the killing of Trayvon they had less than a dozen “members” and were roundly denounced by the family of Trayvon Martin and community leaders as well.

  27. TruthBTold says:


  28. jm says:

    I don’t understand how a change in venue to another county in Florida could help a national case like Zimmerman’s. What are the benefits? (I also don’t understand how moving from Seminole county to another county in Florida would help Zimmerman) Maybe I am naive but I think Zimmerman’s reputation and lies would follow him outside of Seminole county – even outside the state of Florida.

    • In FL you never know…that state is a mess and they have zero privacy… MOM isn’t anybodies fool then again maybe he;’s Zimmerman’s fool….

      In my opinion….

      • jm says:

        “MOM isn’t anybodies fool then again maybe he;’s Zimmerman’s fool….”

        You know I have wondered about MOM ever since prison phone call by Zimmerman disclosed MOM knew about some of the money Zimmerman had in his Paypal account and MOM went on to ignore it (he forgot???) and went to court to support the indigent claim made by Zimmerman clan.

        I wonder if anything will ever come of that.

      • JM, I have been wondering the same thing. It surprises me that no one, not even the media, has jumped on O’Mara’s ethics in that respect. It is evident that O’Mara knew of several tens of thousands available to GZ.

    • The defendant and the prosecution hope to end up with a jury that will vote the way they want them to vote.

      The legal system and we the people benefit by having the court maximize the opportunity to select an impartial jury

      • jm says:

        With all due respect, my point is I thought you can get as an impartial jury in any county in Florida as in Seminole county. The national info about Zimmerman is not limited to Seminole county.

        i don’t mind the posturing by MOM looking for another venue. I don’t care if the case is moved to another venue. It is just discouraging that facts of the killing aren’t presented to any jury of 12 and because of some sort of bias a defense feels they may do better with a jury in another county.

  29. We don’t live in FL but my husband is one who never knows anything about crime stories . So I iknow there are people who know little or nothing about Zimmerman .
    But politics… that’s a different story !

    BTW, why did Zimmerman waive his right to a speedy trial ?

    • rachael says:

      IDK – because he knows he guilty and he wanted to take his time building up a good lie – I mean case – and he is trying to stay out of prison as long as possible in the hopes it will all blow over and he can just magically “disappear?” Otherwise, I really don’t know.

      • SearchingMind says:

        Haha, Rachel, you are always funny and serious at the same time. Quite a good character trait. Your posts are always nice to read. Are you by chance related to Rachael Maddow? I mean – two Rachaels with great humor.

    • Malisha says:

      His counsel needed to “work on” public opinion for a long time before the real thing went down.

    • jm says:

      “BTW, why did Zimmerman waive his right to a speedy trial ?”

      My uneducated theory is Zimmerman team wanted to distance themselves from the 02/26 event and hope the American public outrage would die down. In the meantime, they could still hope to raise money from Zimmerman supporters to live a good life.

    • Time is the defendant’s best friend in a high visibility case, so long as he is not in custody.

      JM’s got the correct answer.

    • Xena says:

      BTW, why did Zimmerman waive his right to a speedy trial ?

      JM is partially correct. O’Mara did say that he wanted things to calm down. His other reason was that it would take him at least 6 mths to build GZ’s defense.

    • jun says:

      I dont normally pay attention to trials but this case caught my eye and it left me shocked how the cops just let Zimmerman walk free so long. Hearing his NEN phone call and then his subsequent claims after had me suspicious of Zimmerman. Then when I heard that terrible scream tape that sounded like a kid, I dont believe they just bought Zimmerman’s story. Then when more information about Zimmerman came out and the autopsy

      • jun says:

        .. It left me baffled. A grown ass man with a gun, stalking and chasing a kid, in the dark of the night, given his history with anger and violence. The kid was smaller, unarmed and had Skittles and Ice tea…

        But I agree with everyone’s conclusions… Zimmerman is delaying everything on purpose

  30. That is the justice system… When a juror walks into a jury box they must put aside all the personal feelings and view the evidence. If the evidence falls short then a not gulity verdict is given. Let’s hope the prosecution does provide the evidence to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt.

    GZ is a mentally disurbed person…..who should have been treated years prior before he it turn into a complete monster..

    Motion to change the venue has always concerned me. I was waiting for MOM to make a request. MOM will move towards selecting a heavily conservative area so that they will be bias towards a particular group of people. This is what horrifies me because when I look at the Sandusky trial; Sandusky knew he had it made because he knew or was in line with many in the jury box. It just didn’t work for him….

    Zimmerman is another case because many of these conservative vote on class and belonging. Look at the hannity interview GZ ran over there to see if the conservative thinking group would rally behind GZ. This is just my opinion…

    • racerrodig says:

      I don’t think O’ Mara gets to make or even have input as to that decision. There was a high profile murder about 18 years ago in NJ where I am and the state made the decisions on where and what criteria. The defense had no say. A friend of mine in DE was on a jury in the same situation and the same there. The defense is stuck with what the state does. Just like asking for a new Judge. The new one may be a children’s rights advocate.
      Ya just never know. In FL I’d assume it’s the same.

      • FL laws are weird…. Just my opinion….

      • O’Mara can file a Motion for a Change of Venue and recommend a particular venue. The prosecution will file a response and the trial court will decide whether to grant or deny the motion. If it grants the motion, it will decide whether to bring in jurors from another county or move the trial to another county. That’s the basic procedure followed everywhere.

        I have used a clipping service and polls in some of my cases to support a motion for change of venue. It all gets quite expensive.

        I’m suggesting a different procedure. Because it is evidence-based, it would more effectively assure an impartial jury and it would cost less by avoiding sequestration.

        Would not be the first time that I’ve made a suggestion that was ignored.

  31. PYorck says:

    *cough* Corey *cough*

  32. Two sides to a story says:

    PS – There are certainly plenty of intelligent people around who know a great deal about the case and have a firm opinion about it, but, are perfectly capable of setting aside their concerns and following jury instructions. After all, who would have thought that Casey Anthony or OJ Simpson would end up with not guilty verdicts? Just a brief examination of those cases would lead to most people to believe they were guilty of the crimes they were accused of.

    • bettykath says:

      I didn’t follow the OJ case all that closely but had a discussion about it without someone with a legal background who did follow it to some extent. We agreed that OJ probably was guilty but that he would walk.

  33. Two sides to a story says:

    Polling is a good idea, I think, Professor.

    And though I can’t stay away from discussing this case and reading everything I can find about it, it’s true that many people know little about the case except for the fact that GZ shot TM.

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